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1 REPORTER'S RECORD
2 TRIAL COURT CAUSE NO. 995
3 THE STATE OF TEXAS ) IN THE DISTRICT COURT 4 ) VS. ) SCHLEICHER COUNTY, TEXAS 5 ) MERRIL LEROY JESSOP ) 51ST JUDICIAL DISTRICT 6 ______7
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10 EXCERPT OF PROCEEDINGS
11 Testimony of
12 Rebecca Musser
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19 On the 15th and 18th day of March, 2010, the
20 following excerpt of proceedings came on to be heard in
21 the above-entitled and numbered cause before the
22 Honorable Barbara Lane Walther, Judge Presiding, held in
23 San Angelo, Tom Green County, Texas;
24 Proceedings reported by machine shorthand.
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S
2 FOR THE STATE:
3 Mr. Stephen R. Lupton 51st District Attorney 4 SB# 12699700 124 W. Beauregard, Ste B 5 San Angelo, TX 76903-5850 (325) 659-6583 6
7 Mr. Eric Nichols Office of Attorney General 8 State of Texas SB# 14994900 9 P. O. Box 12548; MC-048 Austin, Texas 78711-2548 10 (512) 463-2170
11 Mr. Wesley Mau Office of Attorney General 12 State of Texas SB# 00784539 13 P. O. Box 12548; MC-048 Austin, Texas 78711-2548 14 (512) 936-1338
15 FOR THE DEFENDANT: Mr. Daniel W. Hurley 16 Hurley & Guinn SB# 10310200 17 1805 13th St. Lubbock, Texas 79401 18 (806) 771-0700
19 Mr. Brandon Hudson Daniel & Hudson, PLLC 20 SB# 50511660 115 E. Travis, Suite 1630 21 San Antonio, TX 78205 (210) 222-2297 22 Mr. Neil Calfas 23 Attorney-at-Law SB# 50511505 24 540 S. St. Mary's St. San Antonio, Texas 78205 25 3
1 STATE'S EVIDENCE
2 STATE'S WITNESSES Direct Cross Voir Dire
3 Rebecca Musser 3,13 83,185 12,29 37,160 193 4 186,187
5 Reporter's Certificate ...... 204 6
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1 March 15, 2010- Guilt/Innocence
2
3 REBECCA MUSSER,
4 having been first duly sworn, testified as follows:
5 DIRECT EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. NICHOLS:
11:01AM 7 Q. Ma'am, good morning. Would you please
11:01AM 8 introduce yourself to the jury.
11:01AM 9 A. Good morning. My name is Rebecca Musser.
11:01AM 10 Q. Ms. Musser, where do you live?
11:01AM 11 A. I live in Idaho.
11:01AM 12 Q. And, Ms. Musser, where were you born?
11:01AM 13 A. I was born in Hildale, Utah.
11:01AM 14 Q. Ms. Musser, could you please describe for the
11:01AM 15 jury in your own words the community into which you were
11:01AM 16 born?
11:01AM 17 A. Hildale, Utah is the border town in southern
11:01AM 18 Utah. It borders Colorado City, Arizona. The two
11:01AM 19 cities combined are primarily --
11:01AM 20 MR. CALFAS: I'm going to object, Your
11:01AM 21 Honor. It's non-responsive.
11:01AM 22 MR. NICHOLS: I asked her to describe the
11:01AM 23 community, Your Honor. She's describing it.
11:01AM 24 THE COURT: Overruled.
11:01AM 25 THE WITNESS: The two communities together 5
11:01AM 1 are primarily a community where members of the
11:01AM 2 Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ lived. That
11:01AM 3 property is owned by the church and they portion it out
11:02AM 4 and assign it to the different members of the church,
11:02AM 5 and so they keep and care for it. And it's very
11:02AM 6 important to them that they keep only members as much as
11:02AM 7 they can. Only members of their faith live there.
11:02AM 8 Q. Now, Ms. Musser, and pardon me for asking, but
11:02AM 9 can you please tell the jury what year you were born?
11:02AM 10 A. I was born in 1976.
11:02AM 11 Q. Ms. Musser, who are your parents?
11:02AM 12 A. My father is Lloyd Wall and my mother is Sharon
11:02AM 13 Steed.
11:02AM 14 Q. And, Ms. Musser, after you were born in
11:02AM 15 Hildale, Utah, the community that you described for the
11:02AM 16 jury, did your family remain in Hildale?
11:02AM 17 A. No. My father lived in Salt Lake. My mother
11:02AM 18 had travelled down there to give birth at their church
11:02AM 19 birthing center. Then after I was born, she went back
11:02AM 20 to my father's home in Salt Lake.
11:02AM 21 MR. CALFAS: I'm going to object, Your
11:02AM 22 Honor, as non-responsive.
11:02AM 23 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, it was responsive
11:02AM 24 to the question that was asked.
11:02AM 25 THE COURT: Overruled. 6
11:03AM 1 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) Ms. Musser, were your parents
11:03AM 2 members of the FLDS Church?
11:03AM 3 A. Yes.
11:03AM 4 Q. And the jury has heard a lot about those
11:03AM 5 initials FLDS, but what does FLDS stand for?
11:03AM 6 A. It stands for the Fundamentalist Church of
11:03AM 7 Jesus Christ of Latter -- of the Latter Day Saints.
11:03AM 8 Q. And within the -- Salt Lake City where you grew
11:03AM 9 up, did you grow up in an FLDS community, per se?
11:03AM 10 A. Not in a community. My father, in -- in Salt
11:03AM 11 Lake, they didn't own large portions of land, so the
11:03AM 12 fathers just had a home within a neighborhood.
11:03AM 13 Q. What did your father do for a living?
11:03AM 14 A. My father was a geological engineer.
11:03AM 15 Q. And, Ms. Musser, living in Salt Lake City, can
11:03AM 16 you tell the jury where it was that you went to school?
11:03AM 17 A. For kindergarten and first grade, then, I went
11:03AM 18 to a -- just a public school. And in second grade
11:04AM 19 through my twelfth grade year, I went to the religious
11:04AM 20 school held -- the FLDS religious school there in Salt
11:04AM 21 Lake called Alta Academy.
11:04AM 22 Q. What kind of school was Alta Academy?
11:04AM 23 A. Alta Academy was organized by the church. And
11:04AM 24 to be able to be a student there, you were -- it was by
11:04AM 25 invitation only. Your family, beginning with your 7
11:04AM 1 father, as well as your -- your behavior, had to be
11:04AM 2 approved of by the church and leaders who conducted the
11:04AM 3 school, and so....
11:04AM 4 Q. How many -- how many children were there in
11:04AM 5 attendance at the school when you were there?
11:04AM 6 A. When I first started there, there was probably
11:04AM 7 anywhere from around two hundred; and then when I
11:04AM 8 graduated, five hundred, maybe a little more than five
11:04AM 9 hundred.
11:04AM 10 Q. Just to give the jury an idea, you mentioned to
11:04AM 11 the jury what year you were born. What years, roughly,
11:05AM 12 what calendar years did you attend Alta Academy?
11:05AM 13 A. That would have been, I think, 1983, probably,
11:05AM 14 through 19 -- and I graduated in 1994.
11:05AM 15 Q. Now, Ms. Musser, can you please explain for the
11:05AM 16 jury, what kind of schooling did you get at Alta
11:05AM 17 Academy?
11:05AM 18 A. We had the basics of learning to read and to
11:05AM 19 write and do math, basic English, but primarily the
11:05AM 20 focus of the training for every subject was filtered
11:05AM 21 through religious teaching. So, you know, even learning
11:05AM 22 how to read was --
11:05AM 23 MR. CALFAS: Excuse me, Your Honor. We're
11:05AM 24 going to object that this is irrelevant.
11:05AM 25 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, I'm laying the 8
11:05AM 1 foundation for the testimony that the witness will be
11:05AM 2 giving.
11:05AM 3 THE COURT: Overruled.
11:05AM 4 MR. CALFAS: Can we have a running
11:05AM 5 objection, Your Honor, as to relevance?
11:06AM 6 THE COURT: Yes.
11:06AM 7 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) Ms. Musser, let me re-ask my
11:06AM 8 question. Can you describe for the jury in your own
11:06AM 9 words what kind of -- of schooling you received at Alta
11:06AM 10 Academy?
11:06AM 11 A. We had the basic curriculum that I had
11:06AM 12 described, but all of that was taught through the
11:06AM 13 filters of the church, through their priesthood, the
11:06AM 14 religious doctrine and training, and the requirements
11:06AM 15 that we were given through the religion. So all of --
11:06AM 16 everything in school was funneled through that.
11:06AM 17 And why we would learn that was so that we
11:06AM 18 could become more pure; so that we would be more
11:06AM 19 obedient to be able to be used by the priesthood.
11:06AM 20 Q. Now, you mentioned that you received schooling
11:06AM 21 in reading and writing and math in the way that you've
11:06AM 22 described. Did you also -- can you tell the jury
11:06AM 23 whether or not you received schooling in church
11:07AM 24 doctrine?
11:07AM 25 A. Yes, sir. 9
11:07AM 1 Q. And church beliefs?
11:07AM 2 A. Yes.
11:07AM 3 Q. Schooling in history of the FLDS?
11:07AM 4 A. Yes.
11:07AM 5 Q. Can you tell the jury whether you received this
11:07AM 6 training every once in a while or was it done on a more
11:07AM 7 frequent basis?
11:07AM 8 A. We -- through the school, we received, first
11:07AM 9 thing in the morning, for all the grades, was a
11:07AM 10 religious devotional; and then in the curriculum of the
11:07AM 11 day, each grade had class for priesthood history, as
11:07AM 12 well as in the evenings many times the families,
11:07AM 13 themselves, would have an evening class where they would
11:07AM 14 get together and -- and teach. So it was studied every
11:07AM 15 day; the religious doctrine was studied every day.
11:07AM 16 Q. Now, in addition to going to school at Alta
11:07AM 17 Academy, as you were growing up in a household where you
11:08AM 18 told the jury your parents were both members of the FLDS
11:08AM 19 faith, did you obtain -- in addition to attending
11:08AM 20 school, did you also attend church services and
11:08AM 21 meetings?
11:08AM 22 A. Yes.
11:08AM 23 Q. And can you describe those for the jury,
11:08AM 24 please.
11:08AM 25 A. Church was held on Sundays; and in Salt Lake, 10
11:08AM 1 the church was -- the people would gather at the
11:08AM 2 prophet's home, where the school was held also, and they
11:08AM 3 would meet in a large room there and be taught different
11:08AM 4 principles from their scripture, as well as give
11:08AM 5 testimony as to their loyalties to the church and the
11:08AM 6 prophet.
11:08AM 7 And then also we would have -- each family
11:08AM 8 was required to have their Sunday School in their home,
11:08AM 9 in addition to the community gathering for church.
11:08AM 10 Q. Were there -- so during the week, school week,
11:08AM 11 Monday through Friday, you would go to Alta Academy?
11:09AM 12 A. Yes.
11:09AM 13 Q. On Sundays you would go to church services in
11:09AM 14 the way you described?
11:09AM 15 A. Yes.
11:09AM 16 Q. Would you attend anything relating to the FLDS
11:09AM 17 Church on Saturdays?
11:09AM 18 A. On Saturday, then the people would gather in
11:09AM 19 the morning and they would have a religious training.
11:09AM 20 And then they had what we call Saturday work project
11:09AM 21 where the men in the community would gather and go and
11:09AM 22 work on different projects that the priesthood would
11:09AM 23 have them do, like physical labor, whether it was
11:09AM 24 construction or -- to help the community, the members of
11:09AM 25 their church. 11
11:09AM 1 Q. Now, these church services and the church
11:09AM 2 meetings on Saturday that we've talked about, did
11:09AM 3 they -- can you tell us whether or not they involved
11:09AM 4 lessons concerning the history of the church?
11:09AM 5 A. Yes, sir.
11:09AM 6 Q. And can you tell us whether or not these church
11:09AM 7 services and meetings, Saturday meetings, concerned the
11:09AM 8 doctrines of the church?
11:10AM 9 A. Yes.
11:10AM 10 Q. Did these meetings concern the beliefs of the
11:10AM 11 church?
11:10AM 12 A. Yes.
11:10AM 13 Q. Did you graduate from Alta Academy?
11:10AM 14 A. Yes, I did.
11:10AM 15 Q. And at what age did you graduate?
11:10AM 16 A. I was seventeen when I graduated.
11:10AM 17 Q. Did you continue your education after
11:10AM 18 graduating from Alta Academy?
11:10AM 19 A. No.
11:10AM 20 Q. What did you do after you graduated?
11:10AM 21 A. After I graduated, then I was -- through the
11:10AM 22 recommend of my father and the authorities involving the
11:10AM 23 school, as well as the church, gave me the directive to
11:10AM 24 go back to the school and help out with the teaching of
11:10AM 25 the school. So I taught a year of fifth grade as a 12
11:10AM 1 homeroom teacher the year after I graduated.
11:10AM 2 Q. And so what calendar year would that have been?
11:10AM 3 A. That would have been 1994 through 1995.
11:10AM 4 Q. Ms. Musser, have you brought some photographs
11:11AM 5 with you to trial to show --
11:11AM 6 A. Yes.
11:11AM 7 Q. -- you as a young person?
11:11AM 8 A. Yes.
11:11AM 9 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, may I approach?
11:11AM 10 THE COURT: You may.
11:11AM 11 MR. CALFAS: Your Honor, at this time we
11:11AM 12 would object to any photographs of Ms. Musser. We're
11:11AM 13 not contending or contesting that she was, in fact, a
11:11AM 14 member of the FLDS several years ago, when I think these
11:11AM 15 photographs were taken. So I think the admission of the
11:11AM 16 photographs would be improper bolstering of the witness.
11:11AM 17 THE COURT: Would you like to respond?
11:11AM 18 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, may I show the
11:11AM 19 photographs to the witness? We haven't offered any yet.
11:11AM 20 THE COURT: Okay.
11:11AM 21 THE WITNESS: (Perusing exhibits).
11:12AM 22 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) Can you recognize State's
11:12AM 23 Exhibits 59-A through 59-D?
11:12AM 24 A. Yes.
11:12AM 25 Q. In general terms, what are they? 13
11:12AM 1 A. They are pictures of -- that I am in when I was
11:12AM 2 young and through some of the -- the years that I lived
11:12AM 3 in the FLDS community.
11:12AM 4 Q. And do each of these photographs fairly and
11:12AM 5 accurately depict you, and potentially others, during
11:12AM 6 the time period that you were living within the FLDS
11:12AM 7 community?
11:12AM 8 A. Yes, sir.
11:12AM 9 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, at this time we
11:12AM 10 would offer State's Exhibits 59-A through 59-D; and to
11:12AM 11 the extent that counsel repeats his objection, these
11:12AM 12 photographs assist in the presentation to the jury and
11:12AM 13 help establish this witness's foundation for providing
11:13AM 14 the testimony that we intend to elicit from her during
11:13AM 15 her testimony here today.
11:13AM 16 MR. CALFAS: May I take the witness on voir
11:13AM 17 dire very briefly, Your Honor?
11:13AM 18 THE COURT: Of course.
11:13AM 19 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
11:13AM 20 BY MR. CALFAS:
11:13AM 21 Q. Good morning, Ms. Musser.
11:13AM 22 A. Good morning.
11:13AM 23 Q. When is the most recent of those photographs,
11:13AM 24 when was it taken?
11:13AM 25 A. Summer; it's the late summer of 2002. 14
11:13AM 1 MR. CALFAS: At this time, Your Honor, we
11:13AM 2 would renew our objection. We will not contest that
11:13AM 3 Ms. Musser was a member of the FLDS up to the time of
11:13AM 4 2002. And we think the admission of the photographs
11:13AM 5 would be improperly bolstering her testimony.
11:13AM 6 THE COURT: Let me see them.
11:14AM 7 (Court perusing photos.
11:14AM 8 THE COURT: As to these, sustained.
11:14AM 9 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Cont'd)
11:14AM 10 BY MR. NICHOLS:
11:14AM 11 Q. Ms. Musser, you've mentioned the church
11:14AM 12 services that you attended and devotional services with
11:14AM 13 your family in Salt Lake City; is that correct?
11:14AM 14 A. Yes.
11:14AM 15 Q. And how would these meetings be conducted? In
11:14AM 16 other words, who would be the person who would be
11:14AM 17 conducting these services?
11:14AM 18 A. The church services would be conducted by the
11:14AM 19 prophet or by one who he appointed to take charge of
11:14AM 20 that meeting. So the people would gather, they would
11:14AM 21 sing songs, and then whoever was taking charge would
11:14AM 22 speak, as well as direct who else was to speak. And
11:14AM 23 they would speak on either their testimony of the church
11:14AM 24 and its truthfulness, as well as the church doctrine,
11:14AM 25 teaching the church doctrine and beliefs and how that 15
11:15AM 1 translated from scripture to the act of the daily
11:15AM 2 living.
11:15AM 3 Q. Now, where were these -- you mentioned the
11:15AM 4 Sunday church services. Where were these church
11:15AM 5 services conducted?
11:15AM 6 A. They were conducted in the prophet's home in
11:15AM 7 Salt Lake City.
11:15AM 8 Q. Now, the jury may have heard some reference to
11:15AM 9 someone named the prophet.
11:15AM 10 A. Yes.
11:15AM 11 Q. But in the FLDS faith, can you tell us, who is
11:15AM 12 the prophet?
11:15AM 13 A. In the culture there, the prophet is basically
11:15AM 14 God's mouthpiece on the earth. He holds the highest
11:15AM 15 power that they believe is given directly from God to a
11:15AM 16 mortal man on earth and he is the only man who can
11:15AM 17 receive revelation for -- for the people. So the voice
11:15AM 18 of God comes through him to the people.
11:15AM 19 And the significance of that is that those
11:15AM 20 people have to be -- I mean, he has the final word for
11:16AM 21 their standing in the church, as well as their
11:16AM 22 salvation; whether they, in their faith after this life,
11:16AM 23 go on to attain a degree of glory or go to heaven -- or
11:16AM 24 are -- burn in hell.
11:16AM 25 Q. And so the church services on Sundays would be 16
11:16AM 1 held at the prophet's home, correct?
11:16AM 2 A. Yes.
11:16AM 3 Q. Now, where would the Saturday meetings that you
11:16AM 4 talked about, where would they occur?
11:16AM 5 A. They would be held in the prophet's home, as
11:16AM 6 well.
11:16AM 7 Q. Now, you've mentioned to the jury that these
11:16AM 8 meetings and church services concerned teachings with
11:16AM 9 respect to church doctrines; is that correct?
11:16AM 10 A. Yes.
11:16AM 11 Q. And training with respect to church beliefs?
11:16AM 12 A. Yes.
11:16AM 13 Q. Did these trainings -- can you give the jury an
11:16AM 14 idea of what aspects of -- of persons' lives did these
11:16AM 15 teachings address?
11:17AM 16 A. The teachings addressed every area of our lives
11:17AM 17 and even one of the common --
11:17AM 18 MR. CALFAS: Your Honor.
11:17AM 19 THE WITNESS: -- teachings that they're
11:17AM 20 given --
11:17AM 21 THE COURT: Yes, sir.
11:17AM 22 MR. CALFAS: We're going to object to this
11:17AM 23 testimony, to this line of testimony, unless she's
11:17AM 24 qualified as an expert.
11:17AM 25 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, we just had an 17
11:17AM 1 admission that this witness lived in this community for
11:17AM 2 purposes of trying to object to certain exhibits. Now
11:17AM 3 we're having an objection to her qualifications. Your
11:17AM 4 Honor, this is exactly why we were trying to lay the
11:17AM 5 foundation that we were laying is to avoid objections
11:17AM 6 like this.
11:17AM 7 There's no basis for this objection. She's
11:17AM 8 already testified that she attended trainings in this
11:17AM 9 church for the number of years that counsel apparently
11:17AM 10 has stipulated she lived in the -- in the faith.
11:17AM 11 THE COURT: Overruled.
11:17AM 12 MR. HURLEY: Your Honor, just for the
11:17AM 13 record, she's testifying to things --
11:17AM 14 THE COURT: Gentlemen --
11:17AM 15 MR. HURLEY: -- she's been told under 803.
11:17AM 16 We object to that until she's qualified as an expert.
11:17AM 17 THE COURT: Gentlemen, the Court has
11:17AM 18 indicated that one lawyer at a time can make objections.
11:18AM 19 Please refrain from making -- having multiple lawyers
11:18AM 20 make objections, Mr. Hurley.
11:18AM 21 The Court overruled your objection.
11:18AM 22 MR. HURLEY: I understand, Your Honor.
11:18AM 23 I -- I just want to make sure that we do not waive a
11:18AM 24 constitutional issue that needs to be raised.
11:18AM 25 THE COURT: Let's proceed. 18
11:18AM 1 THE WITNESS: Could you ask --
11:18AM 2 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) Ms. Musser.
11:18AM 3 A. Thank you.
11:18AM 4 Q. I asked you, could you describe for the jury in
11:18AM 5 your own words, what aspects of life did these church
11:18AM 6 doctrines and teachings concern?
11:18AM 7 A. We were taught that the prophet had the right
11:18AM 8 to rule in every area of our lives, and so that
11:18AM 9 translated into the daily physical things: What time we
11:18AM 10 should get up in the morning; what you should do right
11:19AM 11 after you get up; the manner in which you dressed; the
11:19AM 12 manner in which you conduct your meals; how you work
11:19AM 13 with each other in the home, children to children; what
11:19AM 14 was proper, what was improper, as well as the children
11:19AM 15 to the mothers, as well as between the mothers, the
11:19AM 16 sister-wives, and then the mothers to the husband.
11:19AM 17 And then also it directed his communication
11:19AM 18 and his conduct with him and his brethren, as well as
11:19AM 19 how they were to communicate with the prophet himself.
11:19AM 20 Q. Did the training and doctrines that you
11:19AM 21 received, can you tell us whether or not those
11:19AM 22 concerned, among other things, relationships between
11:19AM 23 males and females?
11:19AM 24 A. Yes, sir.
11:19AM 25 Q. Now, Ms. Musser, just so the record is clear, 19
11:19AM 1 did you eventually leave the FLDS community?
11:20AM 2 A. Yes.
11:20AM 3 Q. And when did you leave the FLDS community?
11:20AM 4 A. I left November 3rd of 2002.
11:20AM 5 Q. So for how many years, Ms. Musser, did you live
11:20AM 6 within the FLDS community, culture and church?
11:20AM 7 A. I lived there for twenty-six years.
11:20AM 8 Q. Now, Ms. Musser, when we're talking about
11:20AM 9 church doctrine, are there a series of writings that
11:20AM 10 embody the doctrine of the FLDS?
11:20AM 11 A. Yes.
11:20AM 12 Q. And can you give the jury an idea of some of
11:20AM 13 the kinds of writings that embody the -- the doctrine of
11:20AM 14 the FLDS?
11:20AM 15 A. We were taught --
11:20AM 16 MR. CALFAS: Your Honor --
11:20AM 17 THE COURT: I'm sorry?
11:20AM 18 MR. CALFAS: We're going to object, Your
11:20AM 19 Honor, basically that this testimony -- she doesn't have
11:20AM 20 personal knowledge of the testimony that she's about to
11:20AM 21 testify to; that she's not been proffered as an expert
11:21AM 22 under Rule 702 and 705, that it's hearsay under Rule
11:21AM 23 803, and that there's not an exception. And the
11:21AM 24 objection to the Fifth and Fourth Amendments to the U.S.
11:21AM 25 Constitution, Article 1, Section 19 of the Texas 20
11:21AM 1 Constitution, specifically due process of law. We would
11:21AM 2 object to the 6th and 14th Amendment of the U.S.
11:21AM 3 Constitution; Article 1, Section 10 of the Texas
11:21AM 4 Constitution, our right to confront and cross-examine
11:21AM 5 those witnesses against us. And the 1st and 14th
11:21AM 6 Amendments to the U.S. Constitution, our right to
11:21AM 7 freedom of religion; as well as Article, 1, Section 6 of
11:21AM 8 the Texas Constitution.
11:21AM 9 THE COURT: Do you want to respond?
11:21AM 10 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, we responded
11:21AM 11 several times before. This witness has been
11:21AM 12 carefully -- we've been carefully laying the predicate
11:21AM 13 for this witness to be able to discuss, and the question
11:21AM 14 that is pending which is: Can you describe for the jury
11:22AM 15 in general the writings that embody church doctrine?
11:22AM 16 MR. CALFAS: Your Honor, we would -- we
11:22AM 17 would label that as objection number three so we don't
11:22AM 18 have to go through that specifically each time.
11:22AM 19 THE COURT: And as the Court told you, that
11:22AM 20 objection is so broad I don't think that can I possibly
11:22AM 21 make a meaningful ruling, if you continue to make that.
11:22AM 22 But on all the ones you just listed, you're
11:22AM 23 overruled on.
11:22AM 24 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) Ms. Musser, my question to you
11:22AM 25 was, can you outline to the jury the types of writings 21
11:22AM 1 that embody the doctrine and beliefs that you've talked
11:22AM 2 about with the jury here today?
11:22AM 3 A. We were taught the doctrine from the Bible,
11:22AM 4 some from the Bible, the book of Mormon, the doctrine
11:22AM 5 and covenants, Pearl of Great Price, the early teachings
11:22AM 6 of the Mormon church. That would be the -- the
11:22AM 7 teachings of the prophet, Joseph Smith,
11:23AM 8 (Incomprehensible) Discourses, and then different
11:23AM 9 sermons of the prophets from -- that are acknowledged by
11:23AM 10 the FLDS from 1890 up through the current day.
11:23AM 11 And so -- in addition to the ancient
11:23AM 12 scripture, it was also the specific teachings of the
11:23AM 13 person who was acknowledged as the prophet.
11:23AM 14 Q. Now, just -- when you were talking about the
11:23AM 15 time that you were growing up in the Salt Lake City
11:23AM 16 community and going to church services and Saturday
11:23AM 17 meetings there, who was the prophet at that time?
11:23AM 18 A. Up until I was in fifth grade from the time I
11:23AM 19 was born, it was Leroy Johnson, and he died in 1986.
11:23AM 20 Upon his death, Rulon Jeffs became the prophet. And
11:23AM 21 upon his death in 2002, Warren Jeffs took over that
11:23AM 22 office.
11:24AM 23 Q. And, Ms. Musser, when you were teaching at the
11:24AM 24 Alta Academy, I believe you said you taught there for a
11:24AM 25 year; is that correct? 22
11:24AM 1 A. Yes.
11:24AM 2 Q. Who was the principal at Alta Academy?
11:24AM 3 A. Warren Jeffs.
11:24AM 4 Q. Now, Ms. Musser, is it possible for you to --
11:24AM 5 to give us an estimate of how many training sessions on
11:24AM 6 FLDS doctrine and beliefs that you would have attended
11:24AM 7 over the twenty-six years in which you were a part of
11:24AM 8 that community?
11:24AM 9 A. Thousands of times. Probably closer -- maybe
11:24AM 10 more than ten thousand times if you figure it up.
11:24AM 11 Q. Now, Ms. Musser, from your time spent within
11:24AM 12 the FLDS community, can you tell us whether or not there
11:24AM 13 are requirements within the FLDS Church to keep records?
11:25AM 14 A. Yes, sir.
11:25AM 15 Q. And what types of records are required to be
11:25AM 16 kept within the FLDS Church?
11:25AM 17 A. The records that would be kept, the father in
11:25AM 18 the home would keep a careful and accurate accounting of
11:25AM 19 the significant events that happened in his life, as
11:25AM 20 well as the lives of his children, and until they were
11:25AM 21 of age, they then would keep their own personal record.
11:25AM 22 And so the things that would be recorded
11:25AM 23 would be, like, births, specific blessings, baptisms,
11:25AM 24 ordinations, as well as directives from the prophet,
11:25AM 25 whether they were told to go on a certain mission for 23
11:25AM 1 the priesthood or go to a certain place and build
11:25AM 2 something. Anything that was a directive given directly
11:25AM 3 from the priesthood to them.
11:25AM 4 Q. What about marriages?
11:26AM 5 A. Yes.
11:26AM 6 Q. And would these records take any particular
11:26AM 7 forms?
11:26AM 8 A. Yes.
11:26AM 9 Q. And can you describe some of those forms for
11:26AM 10 the jury, please?
11:26AM 11 A. The -- in my younger years, I just saw that my
11:26AM 12 dad had a certain book that he would record these things
11:26AM 13 in. And we were always taught that the church would
11:26AM 14 be -- by directive of the prophet, they send out a
11:26AM 15 specific form that would be common among all of the
11:26AM 16 people. They pass them out and ask the families to fill
11:26AM 17 them out with the specific information.
11:26AM 18 MR. CALFAS: Your Honor, I -- excuse me.
11:26AM 19 I'm going to object that that's hearsay, Judge. That
11:26AM 20 asks --
11:26AM 21 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor --
11:26AM 22 MR. CALFAS: She's testifying about what
11:26AM 23 other people -- what one person told someone else.
11:26AM 24 THE COURT: Your response, Mr. Nichols?
11:26AM 25 MR. NICHOLS: She's testifying to her 24
11:27AM 1 observations, Your Honor.
11:27AM 2 MR. CALFAS: What she heard. It's hearsay.
11:27AM 3 THE COURT: Well, heard as -- if it's for
11:27AM 4 the truth of the matter. She's just testifying as to
11:27AM 5 what she observed and why she observed it. The Court
11:27AM 6 will allow the testimony.
11:27AM 7 MR. CALFAS: Is my objection overruled,
11:27AM 8 Your Honor?
11:27AM 9 THE COURT: Yes.
11:27AM 10 THE WITNESS: I had specifically been
11:27AM 11 handed some of these forms and I myself had filled them
11:27AM 12 out so that that's clear for you.
11:27AM 13 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) And so I think the question that
11:27AM 14 was pending was, can you describe some of these forms;
11:27AM 15 in general terms, did they have names?
11:27AM 16 A. They had names, dates, where you were to fill
11:27AM 17 in the date. And then depending on what the form was
11:27AM 18 for, for instance a marriage record, it would have the
11:27AM 19 name of the husband, the name of the wife, who their
11:27AM 20 parents were, the date of the marriage, who were the
11:27AM 21 witnesses, and where the marriage was -- was performed
11:28AM 22 at.
11:28AM 23 Q. Are you familiar in general terms with
11:28AM 24 something called a one family group record?
11:28AM 25 A. Yes. 25
11:28AM 1 Q. What is a one family group record?
11:28AM 2 A. The one family group record would entail the --
11:28AM 3 the -- the record of the events in the family. The
11:28AM 4 basic more important events would be, like, the head of
11:28AM 5 the household, the wife, whichever wife, her children,
11:28AM 6 and the specific events in the children's lives would be
11:28AM 7 combined on that.
11:28AM 8 Q. Are you familiar with something within the FLDS
11:28AM 9 Church called a personal record?
11:28AM 10 A. Yes.
11:28AM 11 Q. What is the personal record?
11:28AM 12 A. The personal record would have the same
11:28AM 13 information for each, but it would be for each
11:28AM 14 individual person, have their personal record, and it
11:28AM 15 would have more detailed information than on the family
11:28AM 16 group record.
11:28AM 17 Q. Are you familiar with something called a
11:28AM 18 bishop's record?
11:28AM 19 A. Yes.
11:28AM 20 Q. What is a bishop's record?
11:29AM 21 A. The bishop -- one of the duties of the bishop
11:29AM 22 was to care for -- he was set apart to care for the
11:29AM 23 people in a specific area, primarily. So the bishop had
11:29AM 24 to -- he would keep a record of the people under his
11:29AM 25 jurisdiction. And so it would be the directives that he 26
11:29AM 1 was given through the prophet to give to the people, as
11:29AM 2 well as care for their needs. And he would keep a
11:29AM 3 careful and accurate record of his conduct with those
11:29AM 4 specific people.
11:29AM 5 Q. Would -- can you tell us whether or not each
11:29AM 6 FLDS community around the country would have a bishop?
11:29AM 7 A. Yes, that was the structure of the church.
11:29AM 8 Each area had a designated bishop.
11:29AM 9 Q. And to whom would the bishop report?
11:29AM 10 A. To the prophet.
11:29AM 11 Q. Ms. Musser, are you also familiar with a record
11:29AM 12 called a priesthood record?
11:29AM 13 A. Yes, sir.
11:29AM 14 Q. Can you describe for the jury what a priesthood
11:30AM 15 record is, please?
11:30AM 16 A. A priesthood record is a record that the
11:30AM 17 prophet is required to keep because he is accountable to
11:30AM 18 God for his conduct with the people that he has been
11:30AM 19 placed over. So that record would entail his daily
11:30AM 20 conduct, directives and actions that he had with the
11:30AM 21 people.
11:30AM 22 If there was marriages or if he put --
11:30AM 23 asked someone to do something, a specific mission, as
11:30AM 24 well as any corrections to the different people, he had
11:30AM 25 to keep a chronological, very careful record of all of 27
11:30AM 1 his conducts. And that is what we understood as the
11:30AM 2 priesthood record.
11:30AM 3 Q. Now, Ms. Musser, from your experience within
11:30AM 4 the FLDS community, how would these various records of
11:30AM 5 the FLDS church, how would these various records be
11:30AM 6 maintained?
11:30AM 7 A. They -- the church designated someone to be the
11:31AM 8 clerk, the record keeper, who, that was their duty was
11:31AM 9 to gather this information from the people, keep it in
11:31AM 10 an organized manner and also make sure that it was
11:31AM 11 accurate and -- to where it could be combined and put in
11:31AM 12 the church archives. Because at some point, then, that
11:31AM 13 information was, we were taught, going to be turned over
11:31AM 14 -- well, recorded in heaven as well.
11:31AM 15 Q. Now, Ms. Musser, when you say "archives," was
11:31AM 16 there a particular location where these records, the
11:31AM 17 various records you described, would be collected and
11:31AM 18 maintained as a -- as a group?
11:31AM 19 A. Yes.
11:31AM 20 Q. And when you were living in Salt Lake City, for
11:31AM 21 example, where would those type -- the records, the five
11:31AM 22 or so different types of records we've discussed, where
11:31AM 23 would those records be maintained?
11:32AM 24 A. The bishop in an area was the one who would
11:32AM 25 designate where that was. So in Salt Lake City, they 28
11:32AM 1 were gathered and held in the prophet's home. And he
11:32AM 2 actually had a secret room in his home that they would
11:32AM 3 put those sacred records in.
11:32AM 4 Q. Now, when you were growing up within the FLDS
11:32AM 5 community, was there training that you became familiar
11:32AM 6 with concerning the temple?
11:32AM 7 A. Yes, sir.
11:32AM 8 Q. And did the temple hold certain significance
11:32AM 9 within the FLDS faith?
11:32AM 10 A. Yes.
11:32AM 11 Q. Can you describe that for the jury please?
11:32AM 12 A. The temple, we were taught about during my
11:32AM 13 years there, but we never had a temple, specific temple.
11:32AM 14 But we were taught that one day when the people were
11:32AM 15 faithful enough that a temple would be built. And the
11:32AM 16 significance of that is that the temple was a very
11:32AM 17 sacred place where only those who were approved of by
11:33AM 18 the prophet could enter and that would be where they
11:33AM 19 would -- you know, God himself would come down and talk
11:33AM 20 to people in their temple. There was specific
11:33AM 21 ordinances and things that would be done for blessings
11:33AM 22 for the afterlife.
11:33AM 23 And so it was something that we were --
11:33AM 24 looked forward to and hoped that one day that we would
11:33AM 25 be faithful enough to have one. 29
11:33AM 1 Q. And once the community did have a temple, what
11:33AM 2 would be its significance in terms of these records that
11:33AM 3 you've talked about?
11:33AM 4 A. The records, we were told, and it's in the
11:33AM 5 doctrine, that when we had a temple that the church
11:33AM 6 records would be kept in a temple in the archives of --
11:33AM 7 of the temple, so....
11:33AM 8 Q. Now, Ms. Musser, have you had the opportunity
11:34AM 9 to look at various records that have been obtained from
11:34AM 10 the various buildings that the jury's heard about at the
11:34AM 11 YFZ Ranch?
11:34AM 12 A. Yes, sir.
11:34AM 13 MR. NICHOLS: May I approach, Your Honor?
11:34AM 14 THE COURT: You may.
11:34AM 15 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) Ms. Musser, I'm going to hand you
11:34AM 16 something that has been marked and not yet admitted as
11:34AM 17 State's Exhibit Number 61. Could you look at that,
11:34AM 18 please?
11:34AM 19 A. (Witness complying.)
11:35AM 20 Q. Have you had a chance to look at State's
11:35AM 21 Exhibit 61, Ms. Musser?
11:35AM 22 A. Yes, sir.
11:35AM 23 Q. And can you tell us whether or not State's
11:35AM 24 Exhibit 61 contains various of the forms of record that
11:35AM 25 you've talked to the jury about today? 30
11:35AM 1 A. Yes.
11:35AM 2 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, at this time we
11:35AM 3 would offer into evidence State's Exhibit Number 61.
11:35AM 4 MR. CALFAS: Your Honor, may I take
11:35AM 5 Ms. Musser on voir dire?
11:35AM 6 THE COURT: Yes, sir.
11:35AM 7 MR. CALFAS: Can I retrieve State's
11:35AM 8 Exhibit 61?
11:35AM 9 THE COURT: Yes, sir.
11:35AM 10 MR. NICHOLS: I'll get it for you.
11:35AM 11 I knew that was going to happen sooner or
11:36AM 12 later, Judge.
11:36AM 13 THE COURT: Maybe we need to tape it down.
11:36AM 14 MR. NICHOLS: I agree.
11:36AM 15 MR. CALFAS: May I proceed, Your Honor?
11:36AM 16 THE COURT: Yes, sir.
11:36AM 17 MR. CALFAS: Thank you.
11:36AM 18 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
11:36AM 19 BY MR. CALFAS:
11:36AM 20 Q. Ms. Musser, when is the last time you've had
11:36AM 21 any direct contact with Merril Leroy Jessop?
11:36AM 22 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, this is improper
11:36AM 23 voir dire. It doesn't relate to the exhibit that's
11:36AM 24 before -- before the witness.
11:36AM 25 THE COURT: How does this relate to 31
11:36AM 1 Exhibit 61?
11:36AM 2 MR. CALFAS: Your Honor, it relates to all
11:36AM 3 the writings. And I've got two quick questions, then
11:36AM 4 I'm going to be directly on top of the writings. It
11:36AM 5 goes to relevance.
11:36AM 6 THE COURT: Go to the writings objection,
11:36AM 7 please.
11:36AM 8 Q. (MR. CALFAS) Essentially, Mr. Nichols asked you
11:36AM 9 about three to five different types of FLDS records;
11:36AM 10 isn't that correct?
11:36AM 11 A. Yes.
11:36AM 12 Q. And so we're perfectly clear, you're prepared
11:36AM 13 to testify about marriage records, family group records,
11:36AM 14 personal records, bishop records, and priesthood
11:37AM 15 records. Correct?
11:37AM 16 A. Yes.
11:37AM 17 Q. And with regards to birth records, you never
11:37AM 18 had any children while you were a member of the FLDS
11:37AM 19 Church, did you?
11:37AM 20 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, again, I don't
11:37AM 21 see how this is going to voir dire with respect to this
11:37AM 22 exhibit.
11:37AM 23 THE COURT: To this specific exhibit, sir?
11:37AM 24 MR. CALFAS: Your Honor, this exhibit has
11:37AM 25 been offered, and it's got Fundamentalist Church of 32
11:37AM 1 Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints; and on the first
11:37AM 2 page, about halfway down, it has children and where
11:37AM 3 born. I don't think that Ms. Musser's going to be
11:37AM 4 qualified to testify about this exhibit or any other
11:37AM 5 exhibits. And I can do them one at a time if the Court
11:37AM 6 prefers, but I think it would be quicker and easier for
11:37AM 7 me to ask her the questions about the -- the -- I think
11:37AM 8 that the State's contention is that -- well, all these
11:38AM 9 records are somewhat similar in that there's a husband
11:38AM 10 and a wife and children and dates and things of that
11:38AM 11 nature.
11:38AM 12 If the Court please -- wants me to go
11:38AM 13 through and go through each record every time we do
11:38AM 14 this, then I can continue doing that. But I think it
11:38AM 15 would be better for me to make my objection to this
11:38AM 16 document and then to documents that follow or the
11:38AM 17 exhibits that follow.
11:38AM 18 THE COURT: Maybe I got confused. I
11:38AM 19 thought your question was: Did you ever have any
11:38AM 20 children?
11:38AM 21 MR. CALFAS: That was my question.
11:38AM 22 THE COURT: Can you tell me how that's
11:38AM 23 relevant to this, to the voir dire?
11:38AM 24 MR. CALFAS: Sure. Because my follow-up
11:38AM 25 question is: If you don't have any children, you didn't 33
11:38AM 1 prepare any birth records, yourself, did you?
11:38AM 2 THE COURT: You can ask those questions,
11:38AM 3 but they're really probably not voir dire. But go ahead
11:38AM 4 and ask them.
11:38AM 5 Q. (MR. CALFAS) With regards to the birth records,
11:38AM 6 you never had any children when you were a member of the
11:39AM 7 FLDS church, did you?
11:39AM 8 A. No, sir.
11:39AM 9 Q. And because you didn't have any children, you
11:39AM 10 didn't prepare any birth records while a member of the
11:39AM 11 FLDS church, did you?
11:39AM 12 A. I personally did not prepare them for myself;
11:39AM 13 however, I did witness others prepare them.
11:39AM 14 Q. But you didn't prepare any of them?
11:39AM 15 A. I didn't fill one out for me.
11:39AM 16 Q. When you were a member of the FLDS church, you
11:39AM 17 did not keep any birth records, did you?
11:39AM 18 A. I had no children.
11:39AM 19 Q. I'm sorry?
11:39AM 20 A. I had no children from --
11:39AM 21 Q. You didn't keep anyone else's birth records,
11:39AM 22 did you?
11:39AM 23 A. I didn't write down any for anyone.
11:39AM 24 Q. And with regards to marriages records, you were
11:39AM 25 married a single time while you were a member of the 34
11:39AM 1 FLDS church, correct?
11:39AM 2 A. Yes, sir.
11:39AM 3 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, we're getting far
11:39AM 4 afield of the voir dire. We're talking about an exhibit
11:39AM 5 that's been offered into evidence that contains certain
11:39AM 6 forms that the witness has identified as being forms
11:39AM 7 she's familiar with and we accordingly offered into
11:39AM 8 evidence. These questions are -- may be proper at some
11:40AM 9 other time, but the State's position is they're not
11:40AM 10 proper right now.
11:40AM 11 MR. CALFAS: Can I ask her a few more
11:40AM 12 questions, Your Honor?
11:40AM 13 THE COURT: Do you have any questions
11:40AM 14 relating to --
11:40AM 15 MR. CALFAS: I do.
11:40AM 16 THE COURT: Then let's do those.
11:40AM 17 Q. (MR. CALFAS) You didn't -- you didn't make
11:40AM 18 these documents; you didn't prepare or produce these
11:40AM 19 forms, did you?
11:40AM 20 A. I didn't print them out on a computer myself;
11:40AM 21 however, I did witness the forms being prepared to be
11:40AM 22 able to be passed out to the people.
11:40AM 23 Q. My question was, though, you did not make this
11:40AM 24 form?
11:40AM 25 A. I personally did not. 35
11:40AM 1 Q. And you did not keep a book similar to this to
11:40AM 2 be distributed to other members of the FLDS church, did
11:40AM 3 you?
11:40AM 4 A. Would you ask that again, please.
11:40AM 5 Q. You did not keep a book similar to this to
11:40AM 6 distribute these forms to any member of the FLDS church,
11:40AM 7 did you?
11:40AM 8 A. Inasmuch as I understand your question, I kept
11:41AM 9 my own information, but I didn't keep a book to be
11:41AM 10 passed out to other members of the church.
11:41AM 11 Q. You didn't pass out or distribute these types
11:41AM 12 of forms to anyone, did you?
11:41AM 13 A. I was there when they were passed out to the
11:41AM 14 people, the original forms, where they were passed out;
11:41AM 15 and by directive, the people were told to fill out that
11:41AM 16 information. I was there when some of those forms were
11:41AM 17 gathered back.
11:41AM 18 MR. CALFAS: I'm going to object that it's
11:41AM 19 nonresponsive. I asked her: Did you pass out these
11:41AM 20 types of forms to other members of the church? She
11:41AM 21 still hasn't answered and she's been answering my
11:41AM 22 question.
11:41AM 23 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, she's answering
11:41AM 24 the question which, respectfully, is not even relevant
11:41AM 25 to the voir dire on this particular document. 36
11:41AM 1 THE COURT: Do you have another voir dire
11:41AM 2 question you would like to ask?
11:41AM 3 Q. (MR. CALFAS) Did you yourself specifically hand
11:41AM 4 these documents out to anyone?
11:42AM 5 A. As I recall, not that form. The original form
11:42AM 6 that was passed out where people hand writ that
11:42AM 7 information in, I did give some of those out to a couple
11:42AM 8 of people. But they were primarily passed out around at
11:42AM 9 church. So there was an effort to get those forms to
11:42AM 10 every single person who was in good standing with the
11:42AM 11 FLDS community so that they, themselves, could have
11:42AM 12 their information turned back in to be put in digital
11:42AM 13 format.
11:42AM 14 So that form that you're holding up, no, I
11:42AM 15 did not pass that out. However the original form, I did
11:42AM 16 pass some of those out.
11:42AM 17 Q. But you didn't pass any of these forms out?
11:42AM 18 A. That form that you lifted up, no.
11:42AM 19 Q. And you weren't responsible for maintaining or
11:42AM 20 keeping the forms once they were filled out, were you?
11:42AM 21 A. I was not one of the ones that entered them in.
11:43AM 22 However, I was there and watched them being entered in,
11:43AM 23 some of them, to the database for the church.
11:43AM 24 Q. And once the forms were completed, there were
11:43AM 25 different practices within the families of where the 37
11:43AM 1 forms were kept, were there not?
11:43AM 2 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, again, this is
11:43AM 3 not relevant to this particular exhibit. It's a book of
11:43AM 4 the forms that she's already testified that she's very
11:43AM 5 familiar with.
11:43AM 6 MR. CALFAS: Your Honor, we're going to
11:43AM 7 object that these -- these forms are hearsay under Rule
11:43AM 8 803. They don't fall within the exception to the
11:43AM 9 hearsay rule.
11:43AM 10 THE COURT: Mr. Nichols.
11:43AM 11 MR. NICHOLS: Number one, we're here with
11:43AM 12 an exhibit which has blank forms, so at this point none
11:43AM 13 of the contents of these forms are being offered for
11:43AM 14 anything, much less the truth of the matters stated.
11:43AM 15 Furthermore, the forms themselves are not being offered
11:43AM 16 for the truth of the matter asserted, but merely to say
11:43AM 17 that these are forms that were generated, reproduced
11:44AM 18 among the people in the manner that the witness has
11:44AM 19 described. So we are offering this for the fact that
11:44AM 20 these statements -- these forms have these statements.
11:44AM 21 Then, even if they were being offered for
11:44AM 22 the truth of the matter asserted, Your Honor, these
11:44AM 23 records squarely fall within several exceptions to the
11:44AM 24 hearsay rule under 803, including exceptions for church
11:44AM 25 records, family history records, marriage records, birth 38
11:44AM 1 records and other exceptions to the hearsay rule.
11:44AM 2 THE COURT: The Court will overrule your
11:44AM 3 objection. 61's admitted.
11:44AM 4 (State's Exhibit No. 61 Admitted.)
11:44AM 5 MR. NICHOLS: May I approach, Your Honor?
11:44AM 6 THE COURT: You may.
11:44AM 7 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Cont'd)
11:44AM 8 BY MR. NICHOLS:
11:44AM 9 Q. Ms. Musser, first, can you tell us, does this
11:44AM 10 book have a cover?
11:44AM 11 A. Yes, sir.
11:44AM 12 Q. And is there something written on the cover?
11:44AM 13 A. Yes.
11:44AM 14 Q. What's written on the cover?
11:44AM 15 A. Book of Remembrance.
11:44AM 16 Q. And can you explain to the jury in your own
11:45AM 17 words, based on your years of being involved in church
11:45AM 18 doctrine and teachings, what is the Book of Remembrance
11:45AM 19 and what is its significance in the FLDS faith?
11:45AM 20 A. The Book of Remembrance was a book that we were
11:45AM 21 taught about that was the duty of the prophet to keep an
11:45AM 22 accounting of the people. So this Book of Remembrance
11:45AM 23 also coincided with a book that would be kept in heaven
11:45AM 24 called the Book of Life or the Book of the Lamb of God.
11:45AM 25 And so whatever blessings -- in order to 39
11:45AM 1 attain our eternal salvation, it -- we had to have
11:45AM 2 specific blessings, directives and ordinances in our
11:45AM 3 mortal life to be able to have the rewards for those in
11:45AM 4 the afterlife, to be blessed in heaven for those. It
11:45AM 5 had to be recorded on earth for it to be recorded in
11:46AM 6 heaven. And these blessings had to be given by the --
11:46AM 7 the blessing and directive of the prophet.
11:46AM 8 And so whatever was done on earth, by the
11:46AM 9 hand and authority of the prophet, was recorded in
11:46AM 10 heaven. And so this Book of Remembrance was the book,
11:46AM 11 the tangible book, that would be kept of these blessings
11:46AM 12 and ordinances and directives from the prophet to the
11:46AM 13 people on earth for heaven. And if it was not recorded,
11:46AM 14 you would not get the blessing for it in the afterlife.
11:46AM 15 Q. Now, Ms. Musser, is the -- the Book of
11:46AM 16 Remembrance that we're looking at here, do you
11:46AM 17 understand that that was one of the items that was taken
11:46AM 18 from the YFZ Ranch?
11:46AM 19 A. Yes, sir.
11:46AM 20 Q. And does the book and the cover you've
11:46AM 21 described, does it contain various forms that you have
11:46AM 22 talked about at length to the jury today?
11:46AM 23 A. Yes.
11:46AM 24 MR. NICHOLS: May I approach, Your Honor?
11:47AM 25 THE COURT: Yes. 40
11:47AM 1 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) And, Ms. Musser, you've had a
11:47AM 2 chance to look through this exhibit. The -- the forms
11:47AM 3 that we have in here, are those all blank?
11:47AM 4 A. Yes.
11:47AM 5 Q. So if I could just pull up the first form,
11:47AM 6 which is -- is that similar to the one you're looking at
11:47AM 7 right there?
11:47AM 8 A. Yes.
11:47AM 9 Q. So if I pull up this first form, could you
11:47AM 10 describe for the jury what I -- what I'm now displaying,
11:47AM 11 it's part of State's Exhibit Number 61.
11:47AM 12 A. This is the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus
11:47AM 13 Christ of Latter Day Saints one family group record.
11:47AM 14 This records -- on this form would be the husband and
11:47AM 15 the wife. It would have their information as far as
11:47AM 16 where they were born, who their parents were, when they
11:47AM 17 were baptized and acknowledged a member of the church,
11:48AM 18 the date that they were married, as well as the place,
11:48AM 19 and then a record of, you know, if they were deceased,
11:48AM 20 when they died and when they were buried.
11:48AM 21 Also on here it says "other marriages." If
11:48AM 22 he, the husband, had another wife, he would also be
11:48AM 23 recorded on another family group record. For -- for
11:48AM 24 instance, this would be one wife and then another
11:48AM 25 separate one would have him recorded as the husband 41
11:48AM 1 and -- with another wife's information.
11:48AM 2 Then it also has the children that they --
11:48AM 3 that that specific wife had, when they were born, where
11:48AM 4 they were born, and then the information for that child,
11:48AM 5 the significant events in their life. So when they were
11:48AM 6 baptized, when they were confirmed, if they were a male
11:48AM 7 and could hold the priesthood, the different offices of
11:48AM 8 the priesthood, when they were ordained, when they were
11:49AM 9 married and also when they died.
11:49AM 10 Q. So that would be the one family group record.
11:49AM 11 Are there also other forms of records here in State's
11:49AM 12 Exhibit 61?
11:49AM 13 A. Yes.
11:49AM 14 Q. Is there something -- a form that is entitled
11:49AM 15 personal record?
11:49AM 16 A. Yes.
11:49AM 17 Q. Is that the same as what you're looking at
11:49AM 18 right there?
11:49AM 19 A. Yes.
11:49AM 20 Q. And so am I now displaying to the jury a form
11:49AM 21 that is entitled "personal record"?
11:49AM 22 A. Yes.
11:49AM 23 Q. And is this one of the types of forms that you
11:49AM 24 addressed with the jury earlier in your testimony?
11:49AM 25 A. Yes. 42
11:49AM 1 MR. CALFAS: Your Honor, we're going to
11:49AM 2 object that this is hearsay. We'd ask for a running
11:49AM 3 objection and again renew our objection that she's not
11:49AM 4 been properly qualified as an expert.
11:49AM 5 THE COURT: As to those two objections,
11:49AM 6 you're overruled.
11:49AM 7 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) So can you describe to the jury
11:49AM 8 in your own words, Ms. Musser, what type of information
11:49AM 9 is maintained on the personal record that we've now
11:49AM 10 displayed as a -- as a form to the jury?
11:49AM 11 A. This personal record would be kept for each and
11:50AM 12 every person who is a member of the church. So it would
11:50AM 13 have their full name, whether they were -- who their
11:50AM 14 parents were, where they were born, those events, but
11:50AM 15 then it has more detailed information; for instance,
11:50AM 16 when they're baptized, who were the witnesses, who
11:50AM 17 confirmed them a member of the church. If they were
11:50AM 18 male, what office that they were ordained to in the
11:50AM 19 priesthood. And then the specifics, detailed
11:50AM 20 information of who was the mouth, who gave that
11:50AM 21 blessing.
11:50AM 22 And then it also has a place where they can
11:50AM 23 record their specific missions or ordinances and special
11:50AM 24 appointments given to them individually by the
11:50AM 25 priesthood. So on the back, it has their marriage 43
11:50AM 1 record, who they married, where, when, by whom, who
11:50AM 2 witnessed it, and then a space for important events
11:51AM 3 related to the priesthood in their life.
11:51AM 4 Q. Are there several other types of forms in this
11:51AM 5 book that the jury will have back with it to look at?
11:51AM 6 A. Yes.
11:51AM 7 Q. Now, Ms. Musser, in talking about this Book of
11:51AM 8 Remembrance, you've made several references to something
11:51AM 9 that you called the priesthood; is that correct?
11:51AM 10 A. Yes.
11:52AM 11 Q. And can you describe for the jury, what does
11:52AM 12 "priesthood" mean within the FLDS church?
11:52AM 13 A. Priesthood is defined as the power of God on
11:52AM 14 the earth. And so it is the Heavenly power that God,
11:52AM 15 through the prophet, gives to the men in the FLDS
11:52AM 16 community who are found worthy. So the prophet is the
11:52AM 17 head of the priesthood, but it is through different
11:52AM 18 varying degrees.
11:52AM 19 When a young man is twelve, traditionally
11:52AM 20 they are ordained to a first -- their first ordination,
11:52AM 21 which is not -- it would be called the Aaronic
11:52AM 22 Priesthood, and then -- between the ages of twelve and
11:52AM 23 eighteen. But the most important is when their father
11:53AM 24 and the prophet deem them worthy to hold that power,
11:53AM 25 then they're ordained to the next office -- 44
11:53AM 1 MR. CALFAS: Excuse me, Your Honor. I'm
11:53AM 2 going to object that that's hearsay under Rule 803 and
11:53AM 3 also it's non-responsive. And she's not qualified as an
11:53AM 4 expert under -- under 702 or 705. She's not qualified
11:53AM 5 as an expert under 702 or 705.
11:53AM 6 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, abundant
11:53AM 7 foundation has been laid for this witness to talk about
11:53AM 8 the church doctrine of the community in which she lived
11:53AM 9 for twenty-six years. She's described the number of
11:53AM 10 sessions she attended at which church doctrine and
11:53AM 11 teachings were taught. She has described for the jury
11:53AM 12 at great length her attendance at Alta Academy, Saturday
11:53AM 13 meetings within the church, and also Sunday church
11:53AM 14 services. Her testimony is based squarely on her
11:53AM 15 experience, life experiences, and therefore is
11:54AM 16 admissible, Your Honor.
11:54AM 17 THE COURT: So you're saying she's a 701
11:54AM 18 expert?
11:54AM 19 MR. NICHOLS: Yes, Your Honor.
11:54AM 20 THE COURT: Lay witness?
11:54AM 21 MR. NICHOLS: Yes, Your Honor.
11:54AM 22 THE COURT: Your objection's overruled.
11:54AM 23 MR. CALFAS: Your Honor, can we have a
11:54AM 24 running objection so we don't have to keep interrupting,
11:54AM 25 objecting? 45
11:54AM 1 THE COURT: Specifically that -- your
11:54AM 2 running objection is what?
11:54AM 3 MR. CALFAS: That we don't think she's
11:54AM 4 qualified under 702, 705 or 701, that it's hearsay and
11:54AM 5 it violates our right to confrontation.
11:54AM 6 THE COURT: Overruled, and, yes, you may
11:54AM 7 have a running objection.
11:54AM 8 MR. CALFAS: Thank you, Your Honor.
11:54AM 9 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) Ms. Musser, we're going to return
11:54AM 10 to this a little bit later, but in FLDS church doctrine
11:54AM 11 that you've talked about, who can hold priesthood?
11:54AM 12 A. Only men.
11:54AM 13 Q. Now, Ms. Musser, prior to coming to court
11:54AM 14 today, did you review various other records that were
11:55AM 15 taken from the YFZ Ranch?
11:55AM 16 A. Yes, sir.
11:55AM 17 Q. And -- and I'd like to take some time and go
11:55AM 18 through those with you if I might.
11:55AM 19 MR. NICHOLS: May I approach, Your Honor?
11:55AM 20 THE COURT: You may.
11:55AM 21 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) Ms. Musser, I'm going to hand you
11:55AM 22 first what's been marked and not yet admitted as State's
11:55AM 23 Exhibit Number 5.
11:55AM 24 A. Okay.
11:55AM 25 Q. And without talking yet about the contents of 46
11:56AM 1 the document, what is State's Exhibit 5?
11:56AM 2 A. It's a personal record.
11:56AM 3 Q. Is it a personal record of the type and the
11:56AM 4 form that you've discussed for the jury --
11:56AM 5 A. Yes.
11:56AM 6 Q. -- today?
11:56AM 7 Ms. Musser, I next want to hand you what's
11:56AM 8 been marked and not yet admitted as State's Exhibit 5-A,
11:56AM 9 ask you to take a look at that, please.
11:56AM 10 A. Okay.
11:56AM 11 Q. Again, without talking yet about the contents,
11:56AM 12 what is State's Exhibit 5-A?
11:56AM 13 A. This is a one family group record.
11:56AM 14 Q. And is it a one family group record of the type
11:56AM 15 that you've discussed with the jury generally and for
11:57AM 16 which you've shown the forms?
11:57AM 17 A. Yes.
11:57AM 18 Q. Ms. Musser, I next want to hand you what we've
11:57AM 19 marked and not yet admitted as State's Exhibit 5-B, as
11:57AM 20 in boy, ask if you can identify that for us, please?
11:57AM 21 A. This is a bishop's record.
11:57AM 22 Q. And is it a bishop's record of the type that
11:57AM 23 you've discussed with the jury earlier today?
11:57AM 24 A. Yes.
11:57AM 25 Q. Ms. Musser, I next want to hand you what's been 47
11:57AM 1 marked and not yet admitted as State's Exhibit 5-C, as
11:58AM 2 in cat, and ask if you can identify that for us, please?
11:58AM 3 A. This is a marriage record.
11:58AM 4 Q. And we've talked to the jury at some length
11:58AM 5 about one family group records and personal records.
11:58AM 6 Can you tell the jury what kind of record this is?
11:58AM 7 A. This is a marriage record.
11:58AM 8 Q. Okay. And are there marriages that are
11:58AM 9 conducted within the FLDS church?
11:58AM 10 A. Yes, sir.
11:58AM 11 Q. And do those sometimes bear the names spiritual
11:58AM 12 or celestial marriage?
11:58AM 13 A. Yes.
11:58AM 14 Q. Can you describe for the jury what a spiritual
11:58AM 15 or celestial marriage is within the FLDS church?
11:58AM 16 A. Yes. A spiritual or celestial marriage is a
11:58AM 17 marriage that is performed at the directive of the
11:59AM 18 prophet and it is a religious ceremony. It is separate
11:59AM 19 from anything with the laws of the land. It is, for a
11:59AM 20 young girl, the most -- the biggest step in her young
11:59AM 21 life is to be placed or entered in to a spiritual
11:59AM 22 marriage. They do not date. They are -- the marriages
11:59AM 23 are arranged by the priesthood.
11:59AM 24 She is told who she belongs to and then at
11:59AM 25 that point she enters into this spiritual or celestial 48
11:59AM 1 marriage that is conducted by the priesthood. And in
11:59AM 2 that marriage, she is to give herself to her husband and
11:59AM 3 he be the head over her and she submit to him.
11:59AM 4 Q. Now, Ms. Musser, when you talk about a girl or
12:00PM 5 a female being placed with a male in a spiritual or
12:00PM 6 celestial marriage, you talked about -- earlier I asked
12:00PM 7 you a question about whether or not the church teachings
12:00PM 8 involved teachings concerning relationships between
12:00PM 9 males and females. Do you remember that question?
12:00PM 10 A. Yes.
12:00PM 11 Q. And does celestial or spiritual marriage play
12:00PM 12 into those types of teachings?
12:00PM 13 A. Yes.
12:00PM 14 Q. And how?
12:00PM 15 A. Strictly. The -- for the young boys and young
12:00PM 16 girls, men and women, a young, unmarried girl should
12:00PM 17 have nothing to do with the opposite sex, as well as an
12:00PM 18 unmarried man or a young boy as they grow up.
12:00PM 19 And their conduct, for the young girl, her
12:00PM 20 loyalties are to her father and the prophet and to keep
12:00PM 21 herself clean and pure, and that would entail having no
12:01PM 22 contact, no -- especially no physical conduct, but not
12:01PM 23 even verbal contact, with the opposite sex.
12:01PM 24 And through her obedience to her father and
12:01PM 25 the prophet, at that point when she is deemed worthy, 49
12:01PM 1 then the directive would -- is believed to come from
12:01PM 2 heaven, but it comes from -- through the prophet that a
12:01PM 3 young girl is ready to be placed.
12:01PM 4 Q. And you mentioned earlier that as part of the
12:01PM 5 -- the placement of -- of -- of a girl or a female with
12:01PM 6 a man, is there a special name or duration of the
12:01PM 7 celestial marriage that's given?
12:01PM 8 A. Yes.
12:01PM 9 Q. And what -- what is that?
12:01PM 10 A. The celestial marriage is to be given for time
12:01PM 11 and all eternity. And what that means is that she --
12:01PM 12 that woman or young girl is sealed or given in marriage,
12:02PM 13 the celestial marriage, and it will be acknowledged for
12:02PM 14 time and eternity. Time signifies this mortal life
12:02PM 15 until death. So if that marriage was given for time and
12:02PM 16 all eternity, it would be acknowledged for this life and
12:02PM 17 then the eternities to come in the afterlife.
12:02PM 18 Q. Now, Ms. Musser, you mentioned earlier in your
12:02PM 19 testimony that as part of the sealing process that that
12:02PM 20 girl, that female, is to submit herself to her
12:02PM 21 priesthood head; is that correct?
12:02PM 22 A. Yes.
12:02PM 23 Q. And does that submission process include
12:02PM 24 physical submission?
12:02PM 25 A. Yes, sir. 50
12:02PM 1 Q. Now, Ms. Musser, getting back to the exhibit.
12:02PM 2 When one of these celestial or spiritual marriages
12:02PM 3 occurs, is there a record maintained within the FLDS
12:02PM 4 church of that marriage?
12:03PM 5 A. Yes.
12:03PM 6 MR. NICHOLS: May I approach, Your Honor?
12:03PM 7 THE COURT: You may.
12:03PM 8 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) And what we've marked as State's
12:03PM 9 Exhibit-5-C, does that appear to be one such record of a
12:03PM 10 marriage maintained by the FLDS Church?
12:03PM 11 A. Yes, sir.
12:03PM 12 Q. Next, Ms. Musser, I want to hand you what we've
12:03PM 13 marked and not yet admitted as State's Exhibit 5-E, ask
12:03PM 14 if you can look at that, please.
12:03PM 15 A. (Witness complying.)
12:03PM 16 Q. What is State's Exhibit 5-E?
12:03PM 17 A. That is a personal record.
12:03PM 18 Q. Is it a personal record of the type that you've
12:03PM 19 described to the jury in your testimony earlier today?
12:03PM 20 A. Yes, sir.
12:04PM 21 Q. Next, Ms. Musser, I'm going to hand you what
12:04PM 22 we've marked but not yet admitted as State's Exhibit 8,
12:04PM 23 ask you to look at that, please.
12:04PM 24 A. (Witness complying).
12:04PM 25 Q. What is State's Exhibit 8? 51
12:04PM 1 A. This is a personal record.
12:04PM 2 Q. And is it a personal record of the type that
12:04PM 3 you described to the jury as being maintained by the
12:04PM 4 FLDS church?
12:04PM 5 A. Yes, sir.
12:04PM 6 Q. Next, Ms. Musser, I'm going to hand you what
12:04PM 7 we've marked but not yet admitted as State's Exhibit 9.
12:04PM 8 What is State's Exhibit 9?
12:04PM 9 A. This is a one family group record.
12:04PM 10 Q. And is it a one family group record of the type
12:05PM 11 that you've described for the jury and for which we've
12:05PM 12 shown the forms and you've described for the jury?
12:05PM 13 A. Yes, sir.
12:05PM 14 Q. Next, ma'am, I'm going to show you what we've
12:05PM 15 marked and not yet admitted as State's Exhibit 11 and
12:05PM 16 ask if you can identify that for us, please.
12:05PM 17 A. This is a marriage record.
12:05PM 18 Q. And is it a marriage record of the type that
12:05PM 19 you've described just a minute ago for the jury?
12:05PM 20 A. Yes.
12:05PM 21 Q. Next, Ms. Musser, I'm going to hand you what
12:06PM 22 we've marked and not yet admitted as State's Exhibit
12:06PM 23 11-B, as in boy, ask you to look at that, please.
12:06PM 24 A. Uh-huh.
12:06PM 25 Q. What is State's Exhibit 11-B? 52
12:06PM 1 A. This is a priesthood record.
12:06PM 2 Q. Now, we've talked about one family group
12:06PM 3 records, personal records, marriage records; and you've
12:06PM 4 mentioned priesthood records, but we haven't talked
12:06PM 5 about those in detail, so let's do that now.
12:06PM 6 Again, for the jury's benefit, what is a
12:06PM 7 priesthood record?
12:06PM 8 A. A priesthood record is a record that the
12:06PM 9 prophet would keep of his conduct with the people; and
12:06PM 10 through the generations of time, those records were
12:06PM 11 compiled in a chronological order that became what we
12:07PM 12 would -- we studied as priesthood history.
12:07PM 13 So the priesthood record is the record of
12:07PM 14 an accounting of the events that that particular prophet
12:07PM 15 had in his conduct while he held that office with --
12:07PM 16 among the priesthood people. So for the generations of
12:07PM 17 time, each prophet kept that record and it would be
12:07PM 18 compiled in this order.
12:07PM 19 So -- and these records have to be very
12:07PM 20 accurate, because, again, the prophet is accountable to
12:07PM 21 God Himself for his conduct with the people; and if it
12:07PM 22 is not recorded, it is -- if it's not recorded on earth,
12:07PM 23 it is as if it is not recorded in heaven and they will
12:07PM 24 not receive the blessing for that ordinance.
12:07PM 25 Q. Now, Ms. Musser, from your time, your 53
12:07PM 1 twenty-six years within the FLDS community, did you,
12:07PM 2 yourself, observe priesthood records being created and
12:08PM 3 maintained?
12:08PM 4 A. Yes, sir.
12:08PM 5 Q. And can you describe for the jury under what
12:08PM 6 circumstances did you see this priesthood record being
12:08PM 7 created and maintained?
12:08PM 8 A. I saw it when I was living in the prophet's
12:08PM 9 home. I would see the different events recorded.
12:08PM 10 Primarily, Warren would keep a little notebook and he
12:08PM 11 would jot down notes, different conduct that he had with
12:08PM 12 the people. Then one day I asked him, I said: Why do
12:08PM 13 you do that?
12:08PM 14 Q. And, you know, without --
12:08PM 15 MR. CALFAS: Objection, Your Honor, it's
12:08PM 16 hearsay.
12:08PM 17 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, we haven't gotten
12:08PM 18 to that point yet.
12:08PM 19 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) And, please, ma'am, don't tell us
12:08PM 20 what somebody else told you out of court.
12:08PM 21 A. Okay.
12:08PM 22 Q. That's not the intent of the question.
12:08PM 23 The question was: Did you, yourself,
12:08PM 24 observe persons creating and maintaining this priesthood
12:08PM 25 record? 54
12:08PM 1 A. Yes.
12:08PM 2 MR. NICHOLS: Now -- may I approach, Your
12:09PM 3 Honor?
12:09PM 4 THE COURT: You may.
12:09PM 5 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) And is 11-B, what we've marked as
12:09PM 6 11-B, is that a priesthood record of the type that
12:09PM 7 you've described for the jury?
12:09PM 8 A. Yes.
12:09PM 9 Q. Now, you've told us, Ms. Musser, that this was
12:09PM 10 a accounting of the prophet's activities on the earth
12:09PM 11 and interactions with the people; is that correct?
12:09PM 12 A. Yes.
12:09PM 13 MR. CALFAS: Objection, Your Honor, it's
12:09PM 14 leading.
12:09PM 15 MR. NICHOLS: It's just -- she's already
12:09PM 16 testified to it, Judge.
12:09PM 17 THE COURT: Well, try not to lead the
12:09PM 18 witness.
12:09PM 19 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) With respect to these priesthood
12:09PM 20 records, can you tell us whether or not they would be
12:09PM 21 maintained on a daily basis?
12:09PM 22 A. Daily basis, yes, and even sometimes hourly.
12:09PM 23 Q. And would they contain -- tell us whether or
12:09PM 24 not, would they contain a day-to-day accounting of the
12:09PM 25 prophet's activities? 55
12:09PM 1 A. Yes.
12:09PM 2 Q. And were these records maintained by the FLDS
12:09PM 3 church?
12:09PM 4 A. Yes.
12:10PM 5 Q. Next, Ms. Musser, I'm going to hand you what
12:10PM 6 we've marked and not yet admitted as State's
12:10PM 7 Exhibit 13-A, and ask if you can identify that for us?
12:10PM 8 A. This is a marriage record.
12:10PM 9 Q. And is it a marriage record of the type that
12:10PM 10 you've described for the jury earlier today?
12:10PM 11 A. Yes.
12:10PM 12 Q. Next, Ms. Musser, I'm going to hand you what
12:10PM 13 we've marked as State's Exhibit 13-B. And can you tell
12:10PM 14 us what this is, please?
12:10PM 15 A. This is a bishop's record.
12:11PM 16 Q. Is it a bishop's record of the type that you've
12:11PM 17 described earlier today?
12:11PM 18 A. Yes, sir.
12:11PM 19 Q. Next, Ms. Musser, I want to hand to you what
12:11PM 20 we've marked and not yet admitted as State's
12:11PM 21 Exhibit 13-C. Can you tell us what this is?
12:11PM 22 A. This is a one family group record.
12:11PM 23 Q. One family group record of the type you've
12:11PM 24 described earlier today?
12:11PM 25 A. Yes. 56
12:11PM 1 Q. Next I'm going to hand you what we've marked
12:12PM 2 and not yet admitted as State's Exhibit 13-D, ask you to
12:12PM 3 look at that, please.
12:12PM 4 A. (Witness complying.)
12:12PM 5 Q. What is State's Exhibit 13-D?
12:12PM 6 A. This is an FLDS census.
12:12PM 7 Q. And can you tell us whether or not in your
12:12PM 8 experience, Ms. Musser, did the FLDS church keep census
12:12PM 9 records of persons that were living within a particular
12:12PM 10 FLDS community?
12:12PM 11 A. Yes.
12:12PM 12 Q. And would those census records be maintained by
12:12PM 13 the FLDS church?
12:12PM 14 A. Yes.
12:12PM 15 Q. And does this appear to be one such record?
12:12PM 16 A. Yes.
12:13PM 17 Q. Next, Ms. Musser, I want to hand you what we've
12:13PM 18 marked as State's Exhibit 43 and ask if you can identify
12:13PM 19 that for us?
12:14PM 20 A. This is a priesthood record.
12:14PM 21 Q. Is it a priesthood record of the type that
12:14PM 22 you've described for the jury previously?
12:14PM 23 A. Yes.
12:14PM 24 Q. Next, Ms. Musser, I want to hand you what we've
12:14PM 25 marked but not yet admitted as State's Exhibit 45. 57
12:14PM 1 Could you please identify that for us?
12:14PM 2 A. This is a priesthood record.
12:14PM 3 Q. Is it a priesthood record of the type you've
12:14PM 4 described for the jury previously?
12:14PM 5 A. Yes.
12:14PM 6 Q. Next, Ms. Musser, I want to hand you what we've
12:15PM 7 marked and not yet admitted as State's Exhibit 46. Can
12:15PM 8 you identify this for us?
12:15PM 9 A. This is a priesthood record, as well.
12:15PM 10 Q. Same kind of priesthood record you've described
12:15PM 11 earlier?
12:15PM 12 A. Yes.
12:15PM 13 Q. Next is State's Exhibit 47. Can you describe
12:15PM 14 this for the jury, please?
12:15PM 15 A. This is a priesthood record.
12:15PM 16 Q. And is it a type of priesthood record that
12:15PM 17 you've described for the jury previously?
12:15PM 18 A. Yes.
12:15PM 19 Q. And have you had a chance to review all these
12:15PM 20 records before coming to court today?
12:15PM 21 A. Yes, I have.
12:15PM 22 Q. Next, Ms. Musser, I want to hand you what we've
12:15PM 23 marked as State's Exhibit Number 48 and ask if you can
12:15PM 24 identify that, please?
12:16PM 25 A. This is a priesthood record. 58
12:16PM 1 Q. And is it a priesthood record of the type we've
12:16PM 2 discussed with the jury earlier today?
12:16PM 3 A. Yes.
12:16PM 4 Q. Next is State's Exhibit 48-C, as in cat. I'll
12:16PM 5 ask to you take a look at this one, please.
12:16PM 6 A. This is a priesthood record.
12:16PM 7 Q. And is it a priesthood record of the type that
12:16PM 8 you've discussed with the jury previously?
12:16PM 9 A. Yes.
12:16PM 10 Q. Next, Ms. Musser, is State's Exhibit 49. Ask
12:16PM 11 you to look at that, please.
12:16PM 12 A. This is the priesthood record.
12:17PM 13 Q. And is it a priesthood record of the type we've
12:17PM 14 discussed previously?
12:17PM 15 A. Yes.
12:17PM 16 Q. Next, Ms. Musser, I'm going to hand you what
12:17PM 17 we've marked but not yet admitted as State's Exhibit 67,
12:17PM 18 ask you to take a look at this, please.
12:17PM 19 A. (Witness complying.)
12:17PM 20 Q. And what is State's Exhibit 67?
12:17PM 21 A. This is the ordinance work schedule for the
12:18PM 22 men.
12:18PM 23 Q. And you've mentioned census-type records that
12:18PM 24 the FLDS church would maintain. Would the church, in
12:18PM 25 your experience, also maintain lists of persons who have 59
12:18PM 1 received the types of ordinances that you've described
12:18PM 2 for the jury previously?
12:18PM 3 A. Yes, sir.
12:18PM 4 Q. And does this appear to be one such record?
12:18PM 5 A. Yes.
12:18PM 6 Q. Next, Ms. Musser, I'm going to hand you what's
12:18PM 7 been marked as State's Exhibit 68-B, as in boy. What is
12:18PM 8 State's Exhibit 68-B?
12:18PM 9 A. This is a list of the temple workers.
12:18PM 10 Q. And would this appear to be a form of the type
12:18PM 11 of particular ordinance that's described here?
12:18PM 12 A. Yes.
12:18PM 13 Q. And is this the type of list that, in your
12:19PM 14 experience, is maintained by the FLDS church?
12:19PM 15 A. Yes.
12:19PM 16 Q. Next, ma'am, I'm going to hand you what's been
12:19PM 17 marked, not yet admitted as State's Exhibit, it's
12:19PM 18 actually on the bag, 69. Could you look at that,
12:19PM 19 please?
12:19PM 20 A. Yeah.
12:19PM 21 Q. What is Exhibit 69?
12:19PM 22 A. It is a bound book of the priesthood marriage
12:19PM 23 records, so it recorded the marriages between
12:19PM 24 September 9th of 1998 through December 28th of 2001.
12:19PM 25 MR. HURLEY: I'm sorry, I couldn't hear her 60
12:19PM 1 answer.
12:19PM 2 THE COURT: Could you say -- repeat your
12:19PM 3 answer, please.
12:19PM 4 THE WITNESS: It's a bound book of the
12:20PM 5 records -- the marriage records between September 9th of
12:20PM 6 1998 and December 28th of 2001.
12:20PM 7 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) And does this bound volume of the
12:20PM 8 marriage records contain the very same types of marriage
12:20PM 9 records that you've looked at previously and which
12:20PM 10 you've described for the jury?
12:20PM 11 A. Yes, sir.
12:20PM 12 Q. Next, ma'am, I'm going to show you what we've
12:20PM 13 marked but not yet admitted as State's Exhibit
12:20PM 14 Number 71, ask if you can identify that for us, please?
12:20PM 15 A. This is a bishop's record.
12:20PM 16 Q. And is it a bishop's record of the type that
12:20PM 17 you've described previously?
12:20PM 18 A. Yes.
12:20PM 19 Q. Next, ma'am, I want to show you what we've
12:21PM 20 marked and not yet admitted as State's Exhibit 72 and
12:21PM 21 ask if you can identify that for us, please?
12:21PM 22 A. This is a marriage record.
12:21PM 23 Q. And is it a marriage record of the type that
12:21PM 24 we've discussed previously, both as -- as single pages
12:21PM 25 and as that bound volume? 61
12:21PM 1 A. Yes, sir.
12:21PM 2 Q. Next, ma'am, I'm going to hand you what we've
12:21PM 3 marked but not yet admitted as State's Exhibit Number 73
12:21PM 4 and ask you to look at that, please.
12:21PM 5 A. This is the priesthood record.
12:21PM 6 Q. And is it a priesthood record of the type that
12:21PM 7 you've described for the jury previously?
12:21PM 8 A. Yes.
12:21PM 9 Q. Next, ma'am, I'm going to hand you what we've
12:22PM 10 marked but not yet admitted as State's Exhibit 73-B, as
12:22PM 11 in boy, ask if you can identify that for us, please.
12:22PM 12 A. This is also from a priesthood record.
12:22PM 13 Q. Priesthood record of the type you've described
12:22PM 14 previously?
12:22PM 15 A. Yes.
12:22PM 16 Q. Next, ma'am, I have State's Exhibit 74 to hand
12:22PM 17 to you. Could you please take a look at this and tell
12:22PM 18 us what it is?
12:22PM 19 A. This is a marriage record.
12:22PM 20 Q. Again, a marriage record of the type we've
12:22PM 21 discussed previously with the jury?
12:22PM 22 A. Yes.
12:22PM 23 Q. Next, ma'am, we have State's Exhibit 75. Would
12:22PM 24 you please take a look at this and tell us whether you
12:22PM 25 can tell us what it is? 62
12:22PM 1 A. This is a personal record.
12:23PM 2 Q. And is it a personal record of the type that
12:23PM 3 we've discussed previously and for which we've shown the
12:23PM 4 jury the forms?
12:23PM 5 A. Yes.
12:23PM 6 Q. Next, ma'am, is State's Exhibit Number 76. Ask
12:23PM 7 you to take a look at this.
12:23PM 8 A. This is a one family group record.
12:23PM 9 Q. And is it a one family group record of the type
12:23PM 10 that you've discussed with the jury previously today?
12:23PM 11 A. Yes.
12:23PM 12 Q. Next, ma'am, I'm going to hand you State's
12:23PM 13 Exhibit 77. Can you tell us what this is?
12:23PM 14 A. This is a personal record.
12:23PM 15 Q. And is it a personal record of the type that
12:23PM 16 you've described for the jury previously?
12:23PM 17 A. Yes.
12:23PM 18 Q. Next, ma'am, I'm going to hand you what we've
12:24PM 19 marked and not yet admitted as State's Exhibit 77-A, as
12:24PM 20 in Adam. Can you tell us what this is, please?
12:24PM 21 A. This is a marriage record.
12:24PM 22 Q. And is it a marriage record of the type and
12:24PM 23 form that we've discussed with the jury earlier today?
12:24PM 24 A. Yes, sir.
12:24PM 25 Q. Next, I want to hand to you what's been marked 63
12:24PM 1 and not yet admitted as State's Exhibit 78. What is
12:24PM 2 State's Exhibit 78?
12:24PM 3 A. This is from the priesthood record.
12:24PM 4 Q. And is it of -- the type of priesthood record
12:24PM 5 that you've described for the jury earlier today?
12:24PM 6 A. Yes.
12:24PM 7 Q. Next, ma'am, I'm going to hand you what we've
12:24PM 8 marked and not yet admitted as State's Exhibit 79. Can
12:25PM 9 you tell us what this is?
12:25PM 10 A. This is from the priesthood record.
12:25PM 11 Q. Same type of priesthood record we've talked
12:25PM 12 about earlier?
12:25PM 13 A. Yes.
12:25PM 14 Q. Next, ma'am, I'm going to hand you what we've
12:25PM 15 marked and not yet admitted as State's Exhibit 80. Ask
12:25PM 16 you to take a look at that.
12:25PM 17 A. (Witness complying).
12:25PM 18 Q. Without describing the contents, what is
12:25PM 19 State's Exhibit 80?
12:25PM 20 A. Does that describe the contents?
12:25PM 21 Q. Oh, no. Just what is it, in general terms?
12:25PM 22 A. This is a list of the nursing mothers and
12:25PM 23 expecting mothers at the location at the ranch.
12:25PM 24 Q. And we've talked about different kinds of
12:25PM 25 census-type documents that the FLDS church maintained. 64
12:25PM 1 Correct?
12:25PM 2 A. Yes.
12:25PM 3 Q. We talked about overall census, we talked about
12:26PM 4 ordinances?
12:26PM 5 A. Yes.
12:26PM 6 Q. In your experience, would the FLDS church
12:26PM 7 maintain lists of expecting and nursing mothers?
12:26PM 8 A. Yes, so that they could make sure that the --
12:26PM 9 those women who had special needs had what they needed
12:26PM 10 to be cared for.
12:26PM 11 Q. And does this appear to be one such list?
12:26PM 12 A. Yes.
12:26PM 13 MR. CALFAS: Your Honor, I'm having a hard
12:26PM 14 time hearing her.
12:26PM 15 THE COURT: I'm sorry?
12:26PM 16 MR. CALFAS: We're having a hard time
12:26PM 17 hearing her.
12:26PM 18 THE COURT: Ms. Musser, if you would, when
12:26PM 19 you respond if...(Inaudible)... but I need you to speak
12:26PM 20 into the microphone.
12:26PM 21 THE WITNESS: Okay.
12:26PM 22 THE COURT: Do you need her to repeat her
12:26PM 23 response?
12:26PM 24 MR. CALFAS: Yes.
12:26PM 25 THE COURT: Would you repeat your response 65
12:26PM 1 to, I think it was Exhibit 80.
12:26PM 2 MR. NICHOLS: I think the last question
12:26PM 3 that was pending, Your Honor, was: Does State's
12:26PM 4 Exhibit 80 appear to be one such list; that is, a list
12:26PM 5 of nursing and expecting mothers that was maintained by
12:26PM 6 the FLDS church.
12:26PM 7 THE WITNESS: Yes.
12:26PM 8 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) Now, the next exhibit is State's
12:26PM 9 Exhibit 85, and I'll ask you if you can identify this
12:27PM 10 for the jury, please?
12:27PM 11 A. This is from the priesthood record, and it's a
12:27PM 12 detailed training on celestial morals and --
12:27PM 13 Q. And don't -- I don't want you to describe the
12:27PM 14 contents. Just in general terms, this a priesthood
12:27PM 15 record?
12:27PM 16 A. Yes.
12:27PM 17 Q. And does it describe a certain teaching or
12:27PM 18 doctrine of the church?
12:27PM 19 A. Yes.
12:27PM 20 Q. And is it a priesthood record of the type that
12:27PM 21 we discussed with the jury previously?
12:27PM 22 A. Yes.
12:27PM 23 Q. Next I want to hand you what we've marked and
12:27PM 24 not yet admitted as State's Exhibit 90, ask if you can
12:27PM 25 identify that for us? 66
12:27PM 1 A. This is a census.
12:27PM 2 Q. And is it a census of the type that you
12:28PM 3 discussed with the jury previously?
12:28PM 4 A. Yes.
12:28PM 5 Q. Maintained by the FLDS church?
12:28PM 6 A. Yes.
12:28PM 7 Q. Next, Ms. Musser, State's Exhibit 91, ask if
12:28PM 8 you can identify that for us?
12:28PM 9 A. This is from the priesthood record.
12:28PM 10 Q. And is it of a priesthood record of the type we
12:28PM 11 discussed with the jury previously?
12:28PM 12 A. Yes.
12:28PM 13 Q. Next, Ms. Musser, I'm going to hand you what
12:28PM 14 we've marked and not yet admitted as State's Exhibit 92.
12:28PM 15 Can you identify that for us, please?
12:28PM 16 A. This is from the priesthood record.
12:28PM 17 Q. Same priesthood record that we've discussed
12:28PM 18 before?
12:28PM 19 A. Yes.
12:28PM 20 Q. Next, Ms. Musser, I'm going to hand you what
12:28PM 21 we've marked and not yet admitted as State's Exhibit 93.
12:29PM 22 Can you identify this for us?
12:29PM 23 A. This is from the priesthood record.
12:29PM 24 Q. Same priesthood record we've discussed
12:29PM 25 previously? 67
12:29PM 1 A. Yes.
12:29PM 2 Q. Next, Ms. Musser, I want to hand you what we've
12:29PM 3 marked and not yet admitted as State's Exhibit 94, ask
12:29PM 4 if you can identify this for us, please?
12:29PM 5 A. This is from the priesthood record.
12:29PM 6 Q. And same priesthood record we've discussed
12:29PM 7 previously today?
12:29PM 8 A. Yes.
12:30PM 9 Q. Next, Ms. Musser, I want to hand you what we've
12:30PM 10 marked and not yet admitted as State's Exhibit 95. Can
12:30PM 11 you take a look at that, please?
12:30PM 12 A. This is also from the priesthood record.
12:30PM 13 Q. Same priesthood record we've discussed
12:30PM 14 previously?
12:30PM 15 A. Yes, sir.
12:30PM 16 Q. Next, ma'am, I want to hand you what we've
12:30PM 17 marked and not yet admitted as State's Exhibit 96. Can
12:30PM 18 you look at that, please?
12:30PM 19 A. Yes.
12:30PM 20 Q. What is State's Exhibit Number 96?
12:30PM 21 A. This is a bishop's record.
12:30PM 22 Q. And is it a bishop's record of the type that
12:30PM 23 we've discussed with the jury earlier today?
12:30PM 24 A. Yes, sir.
12:31PM 25 Q. Next, Ms. Musser, I want to hand you what we've 68
12:31PM 1 marked and not yet admitted as State's Exhibit 97.
12:31PM 2 A. This is from the priesthood record.
12:31PM 3 Q. Same priesthood record we've discussed
12:31PM 4 previously?
12:31PM 5 A. Yes.
12:31PM 6 Q. Next, Ms. Musser, I hand you what we've marked
12:31PM 7 and not yet admitted as State's Exhibit 99.
12:31PM 8 A. This is from the priesthood record.
12:31PM 9 MR. CALFAS: I'm sorry, I didn't catch that
12:31PM 10 last one. 98 or 99?
12:31PM 11 MR. NICHOLS: This is Exhibit 99.
12:31PM 12 MR. CALFAS: Thank you.
12:31PM 13 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) Is this part of the priesthood
12:31PM 14 record?
12:31PM 15 A. Yes.
12:31PM 16 Q. Same priesthood record we've talked about?
12:31PM 17 A. Yes.
12:31PM 18 Q. Ms. Musser, I'm going to hand you what we've
12:32PM 19 marked and not yet admitted as State's Exhibit 99-B.
12:32PM 20 Can you identify that for us, please.
12:32PM 21 A. This is the priesthood record.
12:32PM 22 Q. Same priesthood record we've talked about
12:32PM 23 today?
12:32PM 24 A. Yes.
12:32PM 25 Q. Ms. Musser, you've talked to the jury a little 69
12:32PM 1 bit about the spiritual or celestial marriage; is that
12:32PM 2 correct?
12:32PM 3 A. Yes, sir.
12:32PM 4 Q. Does a spiritual or celestial marriage, in your
12:32PM 5 experience, equate to a legal or a civil marriage?
12:32PM 6 A. It does not, no.
12:33PM 7 Q. And can you tell the jury why not?
12:33PM 8 A. The spiritual or celestial marriage is
12:33PM 9 acknowledged by the priesthood, by the church. A civil
12:33PM 10 marriage is --
12:33PM 11 MR. CALFAS: I'm going to object, Your
12:33PM 12 Honor. She hasn't been qualified as an expert.
12:33PM 13 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, she's talked at
12:33PM 14 length about her twenty-six years within the FLDS
12:33PM 15 community, her teachings on church doctrine, including
12:33PM 16 the doctrines of -- of celestial and spiritual marriages
12:33PM 17 and the relations between men -- males and females.
12:33PM 18 THE COURT: The witness may testify.
12:33PM 19 Overruled.
12:33PM 20 THE WITNESS: Would you ask that again?
12:33PM 21 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) Does a -- I asked you a question,
12:33PM 22 but does a celestial or spiritual marriage equate to a
12:33PM 23 legal marriage and you said "no." And then I asked you,
12:33PM 24 can you explain -- please explain the distinction to the
12:33PM 25 jury. 70
12:33PM 1 A. Okay. A civil marriage was something that
12:33PM 2 it's -- it's merely, in the FLDS culture, a matter of
12:34PM 3 just paperwork. And only the first wife -- sometimes
12:34PM 4 it's not that important. Sometimes they would go down,
12:34PM 5 if it was the first wife, the first marriage, they would
12:34PM 6 go down and get a civil marriage by the law and that
12:34PM 7 would give that woman the opportunity to change her name
12:34PM 8 to that of the surname of the husband, as well as they
12:34PM 9 could take advantage of the tax benefits and whatnot.
12:34PM 10 The spiritual and celestial marriage is --
12:34PM 11 MR. CALFAS: Your Honor, can we have a
12:34PM 12 running objection to this line of testimony as hearsay?
12:34PM 13 THE COURT: Overruled.
12:34PM 14 THE WITNESS: A celestial marriage is one
12:34PM 15 that is of the utmost importance and that is
12:34PM 16 acknowledged in their culture, in FLDS community, by
12:34PM 17 directive of the prophet; and because he directs it, it
12:34PM 18 is acknowledged in heaven.
12:34PM 19 And so the importance, a whole -- a woman's
12:35PM 20 ability to have an eternal salvation comes through, if
12:35PM 21 she is deemed worthy, she has to be placed by the
12:35PM 22 priesthood in the celestial marriage, be placed for time
12:35PM 23 and all eternity, for that to be acknowledged by, you
12:35PM 24 know, even in the heaven.
12:35PM 25 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) Ms. Musser, were you at one time 71
12:35PM 1 placed in a spiritual or celestial marriage?
12:35PM 2 A. Yes, sir.
12:35PM 3 Q. With whom were you placed?
12:35PM 4 A. I was sealed to Rulon T. Jeffs.
12:35PM 5 MR. CALFAS: Objection, Your Honor, it's
12:35PM 6 irrelevant.
12:35PM 7 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, we are -- at one
12:35PM 8 point we get an objection that the witness doesn't have
12:35PM 9 qualifications to talk about spiritual or celestial
12:35PM 10 marriages, and now we're getting an objection that she
12:35PM 11 can't talk about her experience.
12:35PM 12 THE COURT: Objection's overruled.
12:35PM 13 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) The jury's heard Rulon Jeffs'
12:36PM 14 name. Who was Rulon Jeffs at the time that you were
12:36PM 15 placed with him?
12:36PM 16 A. He was the FLDS prophet.
12:36PM 17 MR. CALFAS: Objection, Your Honor --
12:36PM 18 THE COURT: I'm sorry?
12:36PM 19 MR. CALFAS: I'm sorry. Objection. Your
12:36PM 20 Honor, I'm going to object that it's irrelevant who he
12:36PM 21 was, number one... (inaudible.)
12:36PM 22 THE REPORTER: Could you turn on your mike,
12:36PM 23 please.
12:36PM 24 MR. CALFAS: Yes, ma'am. I'm sorry.
12:36PM 25 I object under the 1st and 14th Amendments 72
12:36PM 1 to the U.S. Constitution. It's basically guilt by
12:36PM 2 association. And I would object under Article 1,
12:36PM 3 Section 6 of the Texas Constitution.
12:36PM 4 THE COURT: Overruled on all of those
12:36PM 5 grounds.
12:36PM 6 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) Ms. Musser, I think my pending
12:36PM 7 question was: Who was Rulon Jeffs at the time you were
12:36PM 8 placed with him in a spiritual or celestial marriage?
12:36PM 9 A. He was the prophet acknowledged by the FLDS
12:36PM 10 people.
12:36PM 11 Q. And, Ms. Musser, after you were placed with
12:37PM 12 Rulon Jeffs in a spiritual or celestial marriage, did
12:37PM 13 you remain in your parents' home?
12:37PM 14 A. No.
12:37PM 15 Q. Where did you go?
12:37PM 16 A. I went to live with him and his family.
12:37PM 17 Q. And where was his home at the time that you
12:37PM 18 lived in the household of Rulon Jeffs?
12:37PM 19 A. When I first was married, I -- he had a home in
12:37PM 20 Salt Lake and a home in Hildale, Utah, and I moved down
12:37PM 21 to the home in Hildale, Utah.
12:37PM 22 Q. Same community into which you were born?
12:37PM 23 A. Yes, sir.
12:37PM 24 Q. And were you living in the home of Rulon Jeffs
12:37PM 25 when these church services that you've described would 73
12:37PM 1 take place?
12:37PM 2 A. Yes.
12:37PM 3 Q. And what kind of -- of religious services would
12:37PM 4 be held in the home of Rulon Jeffs in Hildale, Utah?
12:37PM 5 A. We would have, you know, our family classes and
12:37PM 6 whatnot, but there was a space of time where the
12:37PM 7 weddings, the sealings, the celestial marriages, they
12:38PM 8 would meet at his home in Hildale, Utah to perform that
12:38PM 9 marriage.
12:38PM 10 Q. Ms. Musser, when you were still living within
12:38PM 11 the FLDS community, did you know a person named Merril
12:38PM 12 Leroy Jessop?
12:38PM 13 A. Yes, I did.
12:38PM 14 Q. Tell the jury how you got to know Merril Leroy
12:38PM 15 Jessop?
12:38PM 16 A. He is my cousin. His mother and my mother are
12:38PM 17 sisters from different mothers.
12:38PM 18 Q. You have told the jury that you grew up in Salt
12:38PM 19 Lake City. Did Merril Leroy Jessop's family live in
12:38PM 20 Salt Lake City?
12:38PM 21 A. No, they lived in Colorado City.
12:39PM 22 Q. And from time to time as you were growing up,
12:39PM 23 would you spend time with Merril Leroy Jessop?
12:39PM 24 A. Yes.
12:39PM 25 Q. How would that happen, just explain that for 74
12:39PM 1 the jury.
12:39PM 2 A. Just at different times when my father's family
12:39PM 3 would travel to southern Utah to visit our grandparents,
12:39PM 4 same as Leroy's grandparents, and sometimes we'd visit
12:39PM 5 his father's home, and we'd see him at different family
12:39PM 6 events that our grandparents would hold.
12:39PM 7 Q. Did you have any particular relationship with
12:39PM 8 Merril Leroy Jessop's sisters?
12:39PM 9 A. Yes.
12:39PM 10 Q. And can you describe that for the jury, please?
12:39PM 11 A. Many of his sisters were married to Rulon Jeffs
12:39PM 12 and they were my sister-wives. We were married to the
12:39PM 13 same man.
12:39PM 14 Q. Ms. Musser, is the person that -- that you knew
12:40PM 15 from growing up in the FLDS community as Merril Leroy
12:40PM 16 Jessop, is he here in the courtroom today?
12:40PM 17 A. Yes, sir.
12:40PM 18 Q. Could you identify him by describing some
12:40PM 19 article of clothing he might be wearing?
12:40PM 20 A. He is wearing the tie that has the stripes with
12:40PM 21 the stars on it.
12:40PM 22 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, may the record
12:40PM 23 reflect that the witness has identified the defendant in
12:40PM 24 the case, Merril Leroy Jessop?
12:40PM 25 THE COURT: Any objection? 75
12:40PM 1 MR. CALFAS: No objection.
12:40PM 2 THE COURT: The record will so reflect.
12:40PM 3 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) Ms. Musser, were you still living
12:40PM 4 within the FLDS community when Merril Leroy Jessop's
12:40PM 5 first wife was placed with him?
12:40PM 6 A. Yes, sir.
12:40PM 7 Q. Who was that?
12:40PM 8 A. Jannetta Barlow.
12:40PM 9 Q. And just so the jury knows, who was Jannetta
12:40PM 10 Barlow, who are her parents?
12:40PM 11 A. Jannetta's parents are Dan Barlow and I believe
12:40PM 12 her mother is Edith Black.
12:40PM 13 Q. And where did her parents live?
12:40PM 14 A. They lived in Colorado city.
12:41PM 15 Q. And do you recall what year it was that the
12:41PM 16 spiritual or celestial marriage occurred between Merril
12:41PM 17 Leroy Jessop and Jannetta Barlow?
12:41PM 18 A. I believe 1999.
12:41PM 19 MR. NICHOLS: This may take a minute, Your
12:41PM 20 Honor.
12:41PM 21 THE COURT: All right.
12:41PM 22 MR. NICHOLS: Wes, could you come up?
12:42PM 23 May I approach, Your Honor?
12:42PM 24 THE COURT: Yes.
12:42PM 25 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) I'm going to bring up to you, 76
12:42PM 1 Ms. Musser, a set of photos that's been marked as
12:42PM 2 Defendant's Exhibit Number 2. I've removed the photos
12:42PM 3 from the pouch and I'm going to hand you one photo in
12:42PM 4 particular. Do you recognize that photo?
12:42PM 5 A. Yes.
12:42PM 6 Q. What does that photo depict?
12:42PM 7 A. This depicts the marriage of Leroy to his
12:42PM 8 second wife, Heather; and has Leroy's parents; the
12:43PM 9 prophet, Rulon Jeffs; his wife, Heather; and -- oh,
12:43PM 10 excuse me. That is Jannetta. I apologize.
12:43PM 11 Q. No, no. Just take your time and look at the
12:43PM 12 picture and tell us what you believe that picture
12:43PM 13 depicts.
12:43PM 14 A. This is his first wife, Jannetta, my mistake,
12:43PM 15 and then her parents in the picture and then Fred
12:43PM 16 Jessop, who was the bishop of the community in Salt
12:43PM 17 Lake, Utah.
12:43PM 18 Q. Now, did you, yourself, attend this wedding?
12:43PM 19 A. No, I did not.
12:43PM 20 Q. Okay. And the jury will have this photograph
12:43PM 21 with them. I don't think we have -- we don't have an
12:43PM 22 image of this, do we? I don't think we do.
12:43PM 23 May I publish briefly to the jury, Your
12:43PM 24 Honor?
12:43PM 25 THE COURT: Yes. 77
12:44PM 1 MR. NICHOLS: And just for the record, Your
12:44PM 2 Honor, it bears a number of 2-303. (Sic)
12:44PM 3 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) So there is a person that is
12:44PM 4 seated between Merril Leroy Jessop and Jannetta; is that
12:44PM 5 correct?
12:44PM 6 A. Yes.
12:44PM 7 Q. Who is that person?
12:44PM 8 A. That is Rulon T. Jeffs.
12:44PM 9 Q. The man to whom you were placed?
12:44PM 10 A. Yes, sir.
12:44PM 11 MR. HURLEY: Your Honor, I'm going to renew
12:44PM 12 our objection under 403 to that type of testimony.
12:44PM 13 THE COURT: You want to respond,
12:44PM 14 Mr. Nichols?
12:44PM 15 MR. NICHOLS: Well, first, Your Honor, I've
12:44PM 16 now pulled a photograph out of an exhibit that was
12:44PM 17 marked and admitted at the request of defense counsel.
12:44PM 18 MR. HURLEY: We had a previous objections
12:45PM 19 to the part of this testimony about Rulon Jeffs that was
12:45PM 20 overruled. We just want to renew that.
12:45PM 21 THE COURT: Right. Your objection's
12:45PM 22 overruled.
12:45PM 23 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) Now, Ms. Musser, when you were
12:45PM 24 still living within the FLDS community, did you come to
12:45PM 25 know a girl named LeAnn Jeffs? 78
12:45PM 1 A. Yes, I did.
12:45PM 2 Q. And can you tell the jury how it was that you
12:45PM 3 came to know LeAnn Jeffs?
12:45PM 4 A. LeAnn's parents, her father is Rulon Jeffs'
12:45PM 5 son, and I knew their family going -- because their
12:45PM 6 family also went to Alta Academy. So I knew her older
12:45PM 7 brothers and sisters. And then when I married Rulon
12:45PM 8 Jeffs, then we would see a lot of the...
12:46PM 9 (incomprehensible)... family that would come over and
12:46PM 10 visit. And LeAnn was just a young girl, but she was
12:46PM 11 very sweet.
12:46PM 12 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, may I approach?
12:46PM 13 THE COURT: You may.
12:46PM 14 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) Ms. Musser, I'm now going to hand
12:46PM 15 you what we've marked as State's Exhibit 59-F and 59-G.
12:46PM 16 A. Yeah.
12:46PM 17 Q. Can you identify those for us, please?
12:46PM 18 A. Yes. 59-F is a picture of the PE class that I
12:46PM 19 taught, and so this is in southern Utah. And 59-G is a
12:46PM 20 picture of the same class with their homeroom school
12:46PM 21 teachers.
12:46PM 22 Q. Now, we've talked about -- Ms. Musser, we've
12:46PM 23 talked about your teaching experience at Alta Academy,
12:46PM 24 correct?
12:46PM 25 A. Yes. 79
12:46PM 1 Q. And just so the record is clear, Alta Academy
12:46PM 2 was located in Salt Lake City or a suburb of Salt Lake
12:47PM 3 City?
12:47PM 4 A. Yes, sir.
12:47PM 5 Q. When you moved from your parents' home -- after
12:47PM 6 you were placed with Rulon Jeffs and moved from your
12:47PM 7 parents' home to Rulon Jeffs' home in Hildale, did you
12:47PM 8 continue to have any involvement in children's
12:47PM 9 education?
12:47PM 10 A. Yes. I helped with Alta Academy after I was
12:47PM 11 married to Rulon Jeffs, off and on; and then in 2001,
12:47PM 12 they had all of the FLDS people move from Salt Lake to
12:47PM 13 southern Utah. They pulled all -- all of them out of
12:47PM 14 the valley, and then the school started up again in the
12:47PM 15 Jeffs' home in southern Utah and that was called the
12:47PM 16 Jeffs' Academy.
12:47PM 17 Q. And did you assist with the education of the
12:47PM 18 students at the Jeffs' Academy?
12:47PM 19 A. Yes, sir.
12:47PM 20 Q. And what did you do there, just tell the jury?
12:47PM 21 A. I taught PE.
12:47PM 22 Q. And does -- is State's Exhibit 59-F a
12:47PM 23 photograph of yourself and others that -- while you were
12:48PM 24 teaching one of those PE classes?
12:48PM 25 A. Yes. 80
12:48PM 1 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, at this time I
12:48PM 2 would offer --
12:48PM 3 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) Does this fairly and accurately
12:48PM 4 depict a scene from the year 2001 when you were doing
12:48PM 5 that PE class?
12:48PM 6 A. Yes.
12:48PM 7 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, at this time I
12:48PM 8 would offer into State's evidence State's Exhibit 59-F.
12:48PM 9 MR. CALFAS: Your Honor, we're going to
12:48PM 10 object that it's improper bolstering and that it's
12:48PM 11 irrelevant. Whether or not -- we're not contesting
12:48PM 12 whether she taught PE or whether she was a member of the
12:48PM 13 FLDS in 2002 and before. There's nothing that's going
12:48PM 14 to be added whether or not Mr. Leroy Jessop's guilty of
12:48PM 15 what he's charged with with this picture.
12:48PM 16 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, I haven't yet had
12:48PM 17 her describe who else is in this photograph.
12:48PM 18 Your Honor, the relevance of this photo
12:48PM 19 will be shown immediately.
12:49PM 20 THE COURT: It's admitted.
12:49PM 21 (State's Exhibit 59-F admitted)
12:49PM 22 MR. NICHOLS: Could we please pull up on
12:49PM 23 the screen State's Exhibit 59-F.
12:49PM 24 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) And Can you describe for us,
12:49PM 25 Ms. Musser, what -- what are we looking at here? 81
12:49PM 1 A. This is the PE class and there is myself. I'm
12:49PM 2 in the blue jumper.
12:49PM 3 Q. Is this --
12:49PM 4 A. In the middle, yes.
12:49PM 5 Q. Okay. And are there various children that were
12:49PM 6 attending the PE class?
12:49PM 7 A. Yes.
12:49PM 8 Q. And among the children attending this PE class,
12:49PM 9 is LeAnn Jeffs in this picture?
12:49PM 10 A. Yes, sir.
12:49PM 11 Q. And can you point her out for the jury, please?
12:49PM 12 A. LeAnn is on the back row of the girls closest
12:49PM 13 to Colleen, who is the person standing to the right of
12:49PM 14 me. So that's Colleen and then that is LeAnn, tall.
12:49PM 15 Q. Standing in the back row?
12:49PM 16 A. Yes.
12:49PM 17 Q. So it would be, basically going from the
12:49PM 18 right-hand side, the back row, it would be the fourth
12:50PM 19 girl from the right?
12:50PM 20 A. Yes.
12:50PM 21 Q. I think you also have still in front of you
12:50PM 22 State's Exhibit 59-G.
12:50PM 23 A. Yes.
12:50PM 24 Q. And does State's Exhibit 59-G fairly and
12:50PM 25 accurately depict students that you, yourself, observed 82
12:50PM 1 while at -- working with the Jeffs' Academy in 2001 to
12:50PM 2 2002?
12:50PM 3 A. Yes.
12:50PM 4 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, at this time we
12:50PM 5 would also offer into evidence State's evidence State's
12:50PM 6 Exhibit 59-G.
12:50PM 7 MR. CALFAS: Same objection, Your Honor.
12:50PM 8 401, 402, relevance, and improper bolstering.
12:50PM 9 THE COURT: Overruled.
12:50PM 10 (State's Exhibit 59-G admitted)
12:50PM 11 MR. NICHOLS: Can we put 59-G up, please.
12:50PM 12 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) What are we looking at,
12:50PM 13 Ms. Musser?
12:50PM 14 A. This is a picture of the same class, and it is
12:51PM 15 with them and their homeroom teachers. And LeAnn is
12:51PM 16 also in this picture.
12:51PM 17 Q. Okay. And can you describe for us where --
12:51PM 18 where LeAnn is in this picture?
12:51PM 19 A. She's the fifth girl from the right on the back
12:51PM 20 row, wearing the yellow dress.
12:51PM 21 Q. And, again, in what year would this picture
12:51PM 22 have been taken?
12:51PM 23 A. This would have been 2001; 2000-2001.
12:51PM 24 Q. And at that time, if you recall, what -- what
12:51PM 25 grade would LeAnn have been in? 83
12:51PM 1 A. Second or possibly third, right off the top of
12:51PM 2 my head.
12:51PM 3 Q. Ms. Musser, can you tell us when it was -- when
12:51PM 4 was the last time that you would have seen LeAnn Jeffs?
12:51PM 5 A. I saw her within the last week of -- that I was
12:52PM 6 there in the community.
12:52PM 7 Q. So that would have been roughly in November
12:52PM 8 or --
12:52PM 9 A. Late October, early November of 2002.
12:52PM 10 MR. NICHOLS: Judge, I'll pass the witness.
12:52PM 11 THE COURT: Thank you. Could I see the
12:52PM 12 attorneys, just for scheduling purposes.
12:52PM 13 THE REPORTER: Do you want this on the
12:52PM 14 record?
12:52PM 15 THE COURT: Do you want this on the record?
12:52PM 16 MR. NICHOLS: No.
12:52PM 17 (Off the record discussion at bench.)
12:53PM 18 THE COURT: Can I inconvenience you-all by
12:53PM 19 asking you to be here at 3:30? If I'm done, we'll get
12:53PM 20 started. If not, we'll wait. All right?
12:53PM 21 We're in recess until 3:30.
12:53PM 22 (Recess.)
03:55PM 23 (Outside the presence of the jury.)
03:55PM 24 THE COURT: Y'all ready?
03:55PM 25 MR. CALFAS: We are, Your Honor. 84
03:55PM 1 THE COURT: All right. We'll bring in the
03:55PM 2 jury.
03:55PM 3 THE BAILIFF: All rise.
03:55PM 4 (In the presence of the jury.)
03:55PM 5 THE COURT: Be seated, please. Let the
03:55PM 6 record reflect the jury is present. The witness is on
03:55PM 7 the stand. The defendant is present. The attorneys are
03:55PM 8 present.
03:55PM 9 MR. CALFAS: May I proceed, Your Honor?
03:55PM 10 THE COURT: Yes, sir.
03:56PM 11 MR. CALFAS: Thank you.
03:56PM 12 CROSS EXAMINATION
03:56PM 13 BY MR. CALFAS:
03:56PM 14 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Musser.
03:56PM 15 A. Good afternoon.
03:56PM 16 Q. When's the last time you had any direct contact
03:56PM 17 with Merril Leroy Jessop?
03:56PM 18 A. I probably saw him the summer before I left,
03:56PM 19 sometime during that last summer.
03:56PM 20 Q. The summer of 2002?
03:56PM 21 A. Yes.
03:56PM 22 Q. When is the last time you had any direct
03:56PM 23 contact with LeAnn Jeffs Jessop?
03:56PM 24 A. It would have been probably the Sunday before I
03:56PM 25 left. I'm not sure of the date. Just at Sunday School. 85
03:56PM 1 Q. And I'd ask you a question earlier.
03:56PM 2 Mr. Nichols had asked you to identify, basically, five
03:56PM 3 different types of records: Marriage records, family
03:56PM 4 group records, personal records, bishop records and
03:56PM 5 priesthood records, correct?
03:56PM 6 A. Yes, sir.
03:56PM 7 Q. And you didn't have any children when you were
03:56PM 8 in the FLDS, correct?
03:56PM 9 A. No, sir, I did not.
03:56PM 10 Q. So you didn't have any personal birth records
03:56PM 11 that you kept, did you?
03:56PM 12 A. Not for myself.
03:56PM 13 Q. And you didn't keep any birth records for
03:57PM 14 anyone else, any other members of the FLDS, did you?
03:57PM 15 A. No, sir.
03:57PM 16 Q. And you were married the single time to Rulon
03:57PM 17 Jeffs, correct?
03:57PM 18 A. Yes.
03:57PM 19 Q. And you didn't, yourself, keep any marriage
03:57PM 20 records from that, did you?
03:57PM 21 A. Yes, I did.
03:57PM 22 Q. Okay. Did you retain or keep those records?
03:57PM 23 A. No, sir. I could only leave with a few things.
03:57PM 24 I didn't choose to leave with that.
03:57PM 25 MR. HURLEY: Your Honor, it may be my poor 86
03:57PM 1 hearing, but I'm having great difficulty hearing her.
03:57PM 2 UNIDENTIFIED JUROR: We can't hear her
03:57PM 3 either.
03:57PM 4 THE WITNESS: Is it on? Okay. I'm sorry.
03:57PM 5 THE COURT: Try again.
03:57PM 6 THE WITNESS: Would you ask that question
03:57PM 7 again, please?
03:57PM 8 Q. (MR. CALFAS) You didn't take the records with
03:57PM 9 you when you left, did you?
03:57PM 10 A. Not that I'm aware of, no.
03:57PM 11 Q. You -- it wasn't your responsibility when you
03:57PM 12 were a member of the church to -- to retain or keep the
03:57PM 13 records, the marriage records, was it?
03:57PM 14 A. I kept one for my personal self, yes.
03:58PM 15 Q. Other than your personal records, you didn't
03:58PM 16 keep anyone else's records, did you?
03:58PM 17 A. No.
03:58PM 18 Q. And with regard to the priesthood records, you
03:58PM 19 did not maintain or keep priesthood records either, did
03:58PM 20 you?
03:58PM 21 A. No, sir.
03:58PM 22 Q. And you never prepared any priesthood records?
03:58PM 23 A. No. However, I witnessed them being prepared.
03:58PM 24 Q. Did you ever proofread priesthood records?
03:58PM 25 A. No, sir. 87
03:58PM 1 Q. Did you ever record dictations of the prophet?
03:58PM 2 A. Yes.
03:58PM 3 Q. Was that your responsibility to do that or was
03:58PM 4 this something that you happened -- how many times did
03:58PM 5 you record dictations of the prophet?
03:58PM 6 A. Whenever we had family class, we would all take
03:58PM 7 notes. And at meetings -- at any of the trainings, we
03:58PM 8 all took notes on that.
03:58PM 9 Q. There are -- there is a person, though, within
03:58PM 10 the church that their sole duty or sole job is to make
03:59PM 11 recordings of the prophet's dictations, correct?
03:59PM 12 A. It may not be their sole duty, but they would
03:59PM 13 be designated to be the one to take care of those
03:59PM 14 records and keep them.
03:59PM 15 Q. Okay. And you were not the person that was
03:59PM 16 designated to do that?
03:59PM 17 A. No, sir.
03:59PM 18 Q. Now, the FLDS people are fairly private
03:59PM 19 individuals, are they not?
03:59PM 20 A. I can't speak for them, but generally I know I
03:59PM 21 am.
03:59PM 22 Q. Well, when you were a member of the FLDS, you
03:59PM 23 were private, weren't you?
03:59PM 24 A. Private in which way? They are -- they keep
03:59PM 25 themselves secluded from the outside, mainstream 88
03:59PM 1 society.
03:59PM 2 Q. So they keep to themselves?
03:59PM 3 A. So far as I understand what you're saying, yes.
03:59PM 4 Q. And some of their religious records, I guess
03:59PM 5 you testified in the past, that they're secret as well
04:00PM 6 as sacred, right?
04:00PM 7 A. They are for a sacred purpose.
04:00PM 8 Q. The records themselves are sacred, aren't they?
04:00PM 9 A. Yes.
04:00PM 10 Q. And the recordings are private, aren't they?
04:00PM 11 A. I'm sorry, would you say that again?
04:00PM 12 Q. The recordings, the records are private, aren't
04:00PM 13 they?
04:00PM 14 A. Private to whom?
04:00PM 15 Q. To the members of the church.
04:00PM 16 A. Parts of them are, but parts of them are not.
04:00PM 17 By that I mean, sometimes there would be trainings that
04:00PM 18 are in the priesthood record that would be given to the
04:00PM 19 whole people, but the whole people would not have access
04:00PM 20 to the complete piece -- priesthood record.
04:00PM 21 Q. Even when you were a member, the records that
04:00PM 22 you had knowledge of were kept in a locked room,
04:00PM 23 correct?
04:00PM 24 A. Yes.
04:00PM 25 Q. And you didn't have access to them, did you? 89
04:01PM 1 A. No, sir.
04:01PM 2 Q. And only very limited people had access to
04:01PM 3 those records, correct?
04:01PM 4 A. Yes.
04:01PM 5 Q. You left the -- the FLDS church on November
04:01PM 6 the 3rd, 2002?
04:01PM 7 A. Yes.
04:01PM 8 Q. And you haven't been back to the FLDS church
04:01PM 9 except for a few funerals; is that correct?
04:01PM 10 A. Yes.
04:01PM 11 Q. And since you left, you haven't prepared any
04:01PM 12 FLDS records, have you?
04:01PM 13 A. I'm sorry, could you say that again?
04:01PM 14 Q. Since you left in November of 2002, you have
04:01PM 15 not prepared any records with regard to the FLDS --
04:01PM 16 A. No, sir.
04:01PM 17 Q. -- officially?
04:01PM 18 So it would be fair to say that your --
04:01PM 19 your direct experience and your knowledge with regard to
04:01PM 20 the records that we've been discussing and the records
04:01PM 21 that you've identified ended on November of 2002, right?
04:01PM 22 A. Yes.
04:01PM 23 Q. And I think you testified earlier that when you
04:02PM 24 were a member of the FLDS, there was no temple, was
04:02PM 25 there? 90
04:02PM 1 A. No, sir.
04:02PM 2 Q. And there was no temple annex?
04:02PM 3 A. No, sir.
04:02PM 4 Q. You know that some of the church records,
04:02PM 5 during your tenure with the FLDS, were stored at the
04:02PM 6 prophet's residence, correct?
04:02PM 7 A. Yes.
04:02PM 8 Q. And you also know that other records were
04:02PM 9 stored at other FLDS communities around the nation,
04:02PM 10 correct?
04:02PM 11 A. Yes, sir.
04:02PM 12 Q. But you don't know specifically where they were
04:02PM 13 stored or how they were stored, do you?
04:02PM 14 A. Some of them I did.
04:02PM 15 Q. But not all of them?
04:02PM 16 A. No.
04:02PM 17 Q. Prior to April of 2008, you did not know how or
04:02PM 18 where the records were stored that were on the YFZ
04:02PM 19 Ranch, did you?
04:02PM 20 A. I had no personal knowledge of that; however, I
04:03PM 21 did have the training that we had been given all through
04:03PM 22 our years growing up of how it would be when we did have
04:03PM 23 a temple.
04:03PM 24 Q. And you don't know whether or not in the seven
04:03PM 25 or so years that you have left the church the direction 91
04:03PM 1 or the rules regarding the storage of records had
04:03PM 2 changed, do you?
04:03PM 3 A. I have no personal knowledge of that.
04:03PM 4 Q. The specific records that -- that you've looked
04:03PM 5 at, how carefully have you gone through them?
04:03PM 6 A. I've -- I've looked over them.
04:03PM 7 Q. Do you recognize any of those specific records
04:03PM 8 from records that were created when you were a member of
04:03PM 9 the church?
04:03PM 10 A. I'm not sure I understand your question with
04:03PM 11 that. I recognize the forms, I recognize the people, I
04:03PM 12 recognize the information. But do I recognize this
04:03PM 13 form, that I saw this exact piece of paper before I
04:04PM 14 left?
04:04PM 15 Q. Yes, ma'am.
04:04PM 16 A. I cannot say that I saw this exact form filled
04:04PM 17 out by this person, watching them fill it out, no.
04:04PM 18 Q. Okay. With regard to the records that were
04:04PM 19 seized from the YFZ Ranch, you cannot tell the jury who
04:04PM 20 specifically prepared each one of the records, can you?
04:04PM 21 A. As far as who filled them out?
04:04PM 22 Q. Yes, ma'am.
04:04PM 23 A. I didn't watch anyone fill these out.
04:04PM 24 Q. So you --
04:04PM 25 A. That I know of. 92
04:04PM 1 Q. So you couldn't?
04:04PM 2 A. I couldn't say that this is this person's
04:04PM 3 handwriting, I watched them fill it out, no. I wasn't
04:04PM 4 there.
04:04PM 5 Q. With regard to the exhibits that you reviewed,
04:04PM 6 you cannot tell the jury with any certainty when the
04:04PM 7 records were filled out, can you?
04:04PM 8 A. Again, I'm not sure that I understand what
04:04PM 9 you're asking me to do.
04:04PM 10 Q. Okay. And you've kind of already answered it.
04:04PM 11 You didn't see the records being filled out, correct?
04:04PM 12 A. No.
04:05PM 13 Q. And you weren't there when the records were
04:05PM 14 filled out, were you?
04:05PM 15 A. I cannot guarantee I was there when all of
04:05PM 16 these records were filled out, no. However, I did see
04:05PM 17 some of the records filled out. Are they the same
04:05PM 18 pieces of paper? I cannot confirm that. But it is the
04:05PM 19 same information.
04:05PM 20 Q. You can't tell the jury that -- you haven't had
04:05PM 21 any special training in handwriting analysis, have you?
04:05PM 22 A. No, sir.
04:05PM 23 Q. And you cannot tell the jury for sure who's
04:05PM 24 filled out any of those records, can you?
04:05PM 25 A. No. 93
04:05PM 1 Q. Now, there are numerous, very positive
04:05PM 2 character traits that many of the FLDS people share in
04:05PM 3 common, are there not?
04:05PM 4 A. I'm not sure I understand. You mean in their
04:05PM 5 teachings that they strive to have? Would you restate
04:06PM 6 that, please.
04:06PM 7 Q. Yeah, and I'll break it down for you. Through
04:06PM 8 your education with the FLDS church, you were taught and
04:06PM 9 you also taught children to be respectful to their
04:06PM 10 parents, didn't you?
04:06PM 11 A. Yes, sir.
04:06PM 12 Q. And you were taught to be -- to -- to be
04:06PM 13 courteous to people outside of your immediate family,
04:06PM 14 were you not?
04:06PM 15 A. I'm sorry. I can't hear you very well.
04:06PM 16 Q. You were taught to be courteous to people
04:06PM 17 outside of your family, were you not?
04:06PM 18 A. Yes.
04:06PM 19 Q. There's an emphasis within the church, within
04:06PM 20 the school to be kind to others?
04:06PM 21 A. Yes.
04:06PM 22 Q. You were taught, at a very early age,
04:06PM 23 responsibility?
04:06PM 24 A. Yes.
04:06PM 25 Q. A strong work ethic was promoted through the 94
04:06PM 1 church and through your learning, was it not?
04:06PM 2 A. Yes.
04:06PM 3 Q. The idea of building up your neighbor is a
04:06PM 4 strong tenet of the church, isn't it?
04:06PM 5 A. That's a very strong concept that they teach.
04:07PM 6 Q. Loving your neighbor as yourself is another
04:07PM 7 strong concept that they teach, isn't it?
04:07PM 8 A. Yes, sir.
04:07PM 9 Q. And most of the people within all of the
04:07PM 10 different FLDS communities are given responsibility or
04:07PM 11 certain tasks or certain chores, correct?
04:07PM 12 A. That is a very wide -- that is a very broad
04:07PM 13 question. Can you please restate that.
04:07PM 14 Q. Both -- most -- everyone --
04:07PM 15 A. I can't answer that with a yes or no. I guess
04:07PM 16 that's my answer there.
04:07PM 17 Q. Okay. Laziness is not tolerated within the
04:07PM 18 FLDS community, is it?
04:07PM 19 A. I can't answer that with a yes or a no.
04:07PM 20 Q. People are expected to contribute to their
04:07PM 21 families, their neighbors and the church, aren't they?
04:08PM 22 A. Well, the people are taught to be busy and that
04:08PM 23 it is more God-like to be busy and to contribute to
04:08PM 24 their community. But to say that everyone obeys that
04:08PM 25 one hundred percent, no. 95
04:08PM 1 Q. It's a strong tenet of the FLDS church to take
04:08PM 2 personal pride and modesty in one's appearance, isn't
04:08PM 3 it?
04:08PM 4 A. Can you explain tenets, just so that I make
04:08PM 5 sure that I understand that correctly.
04:08PM 6 Q. It's a -- it's a concept of the church.
04:08PM 7 A. Okay.
04:08PM 8 Q. It's an idea that the church teaches to take
04:08PM 9 personal pride or modesty in one's physical appearance,
04:08PM 10 correct?
04:08PM 11 A. They are taught to be tidy. Personal pride, I
04:08PM 12 wouldn't put that in there. However, they are taught to
04:08PM 13 be modest in their dress and there's specific guidelines
04:09PM 14 that the church gives that is their definition of
04:09PM 15 modesty.
04:09PM 16 Q. As an FLDS member, you learned to take pride in
04:09PM 17 your home, do you not?
04:09PM 18 A. I guess I'm not sure what you mean by pride.
04:09PM 19 That word, just that -- that specific term is something
04:09PM 20 that they are taught to shy away from. To take care of
04:09PM 21 their home, yes.
04:09PM 22 Q. They don't leave trash laying out in the front
04:09PM 23 yard; their -- their homes are put together well. They
04:09PM 24 care about the way they look and the way their
04:09PM 25 neighbors -- 96
04:09PM 1 A. I cannot answer that with a yes or no and I
04:09PM 2 cannot speak for them. I can tell you the concepts that
04:09PM 3 are taught, but to say that they all do that, no.
04:09PM 4 Q. Each person's taught to be loyal, and the
04:09PM 5 importance of loyalty is pushed by the church, is it
04:09PM 6 not?
04:09PM 7 A. Again, I can't answer that with a yes or no.
04:10PM 8 Q. You were educated on nutrition, weren't you?
04:10PM 9 A. On -- on what?
04:10PM 10 Q. Nutrition.
04:10PM 11 A. Yes, but that needs some definition.
04:10PM 12 Q. I'm sorry?
04:10PM 13 A. That -- that needs -- I cannot answer that with
04:10PM 14 a simple yes or no.
04:10PM 15 Q. Well, were you told in school what type of
04:10PM 16 foods were good for you to eat and what type of foods
04:10PM 17 were not so good for you to eat?
04:10PM 18 A. That is not entirely correct.
04:10PM 19 Q. What's incorrect about it?
04:10PM 20 A. We were told what foods were approved of by the
04:10PM 21 priesthood that we should eat. Whether they were
04:10PM 22 medically proven to be nutritious, no, not entirely.
04:11PM 23 Q. So you weren't given, I guess, the reason
04:11PM 24 behind it, but you were told: These are the types of
04:11PM 25 foods you should eat and these are the types of foods 97
04:11PM 1 that you shouldn't?
04:11PM 2 A. By opinion of the priesthood authorities, but
04:11PM 3 not that that's what it was. Generally speaking, many
04:11PM 4 of them were; however, not all. It was their opinion
04:11PM 5 and their view of nutrition that was taught of what the
04:11PM 6 priesthood people should eat and should not eat.
04:11PM 7 Q. Well, for example, you -- you remember a
04:11PM 8 graduation speech that you gave, don't you?
04:11PM 9 A. Yes.
04:11PM 10 Q. And do you remember kind of making fun, making
04:11PM 11 a joke about someone telling you that french fries and
04:11PM 12 Kentucky Fried Chicken was off limits?
04:11PM 13 A. It's been a while since I graduated. I would
04:11PM 14 like to see that speech. There may be something of that
04:11PM 15 in there.
04:11PM 16 MR. CALFAS: May I approach, Your Honor?
04:11PM 17 THE COURT: Sure.
04:13PM 18 Q. (MR. CALFAS) I'm handing you what's been marked
04:13PM 19 as Defendant's Exhibit Number 34 for identification
04:13PM 20 purposes.
04:13PM 21 A. Okay.
04:13PM 22 Q. Do you recall giving that speech?
04:13PM 23 A. Yes, I do.
04:13PM 24 Q. Do you recall making fun of being banned or
04:13PM 25 told not to each french fries and Kentucky Fried 98
04:13PM 1 Chicken?
04:13PM 2 A. Would you like me to explain this statement in
04:13PM 3 here?
04:13PM 4 Q. I'd prefer that you just answer the question.
04:13PM 5 A. To answer that question, I would need to
04:13PM 6 explain that.
04:14PM 7 Q. Do you recall being advised -- making fun of
04:14PM 8 being advised not to eat Kentucky Fried Chicken and
04:14PM 9 french fries?
04:14PM 10 A. In a joking way and not making fun, but again,
04:14PM 11 I can't -- I can't answer that with just a simple yes or
04:14PM 12 no.
04:14PM 13 Q. Are you proud or ashamed of your FLDS
04:14PM 14 upbringing?
04:14PM 15 A. I'm neither proud nor ashamed. It is part of
04:14PM 16 my life, part of what I've been able to learn from and
04:14PM 17 has made me who I am.
04:14PM 18 Q. Are you proud or ashamed of the basic
04:14PM 19 principles of life that you learned while you were with
04:14PM 20 the FLDS church?
04:14PM 21 A. I'm neither proud nor ashamed.
04:14PM 22 Q. You say that you're cousins with Mr. Leroy
04:15PM 23 Jessop, correct?
04:15PM 24 A. Yes, sir.
04:15PM 25 Q. And you said that you had had some contact with 99
04:15PM 1 him when you were a member of the church. How much
04:15PM 2 contact did you have with him?
04:15PM 3 A. Before I married Rulon Jeffs, it wasn't as
04:15PM 4 often. But when I married Rulon Jeffs, many of his
04:15PM 5 sisters were my sister-wives and I was very close to
04:15PM 6 them. And often times when -- I was with them, when
04:15PM 7 they would go do things with their father's family, so
04:15PM 8 it was fairly regular, you know, here and there.
04:15PM 9 Q. From what you know about him, could you quarrel
04:15PM 10 with the idea that he's a hard-working individual, a
04:15PM 11 loving and a caring father and a loving and a caring
04:15PM 12 husband?
04:15PM 13 THE COURT: Yes, Mr. Nichols.
04:15PM 14 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, objection. This
04:15PM 15 is not relevant at this stage of the proceedings.
04:15PM 16 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, why don't
04:15PM 17 you-all -- yeah, step into the jury room.
04:16PM 18 THE BAILIFF: All rise.
04:16PM 19 (Outside the presence of the jury.)
04:16PM 20 THE COURT: Be seated, please.
04:16PM 21 Gentlemen, you want to respond?
04:16PM 22 MR. CALFAS: Your Honor, I think that --
04:16PM 23 that his -- I mean, just by the very nature of the
04:16PM 24 charge against him, his character's been attacked. And
04:16PM 25 I think that we're entitled to go into what type of 100
04:16PM 1 person he is; what she's talked about, the beliefs and
04:16PM 2 the roles that she played in the church.
04:16PM 3 And I think that the evidence will
04:16PM 4 establish that she taught LeAnn Jeffs; she -- she was
04:17PM 5 involved with the same type of educational system, moral
04:17PM 6 upbringing and experiences that both LeAnn Jeffs and --
04:17PM 7 and Merril Leroy Jessop were involved with. And I think
04:17PM 8 that we're clearly entitled to go into his character.
04:17PM 9 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, should we go to a
04:17PM 10 punishment phase in the case, this witness will testify
04:17PM 11 at punishment and at that time would be available to
04:17PM 12 answer those types of questions.
04:17PM 13 THE COURT: Under G.M.P., a case out of
04:17PM 14 Houston, Fourteenth -- Fourteenth Court, 1995 case, the
04:17PM 15 Court wrote that clearly sexual assault of a child
04:17PM 16 encompasses each of the definitions, and it's talking
04:17PM 17 about moral turpitude and going through the lists.
04:17PM 18 It is a crime of deliberate violence
04:17PM 19 concerning personal morality, good morals and it is an
04:18PM 20 act of basic violence and depravity. Is immoral in
04:18PM 21 itself and shows a moral indifference of the opinion
04:18PM 22 and... (inaudible)... of members of the community. It
04:18PM 23 can be characterized as universally morally
04:18PM 24 reprehensible. The Court went on to say that because of
04:18PM 25 that, you, the defense, would be entitled to introduce 101
04:18PM 1 character evidence to rebut those qualities.
04:18PM 2 So I think on guilt or innocence, if he
04:18PM 3 goes through the proper set of questions, he is entitled
04:18PM 4 to introduce that type of character evidence, such as a
04:18PM 5 good reputation in the community for being a moral
04:18PM 6 person and for the safe -- and for safely treating young
04:19PM 7 children has been held, in a sexual assault of a child
04:19PM 8 case, to be admissible.
04:19PM 9 Letters are not of that characteristic and
04:19PM 10 that's what someone tried to suggest earlier. So if you
04:19PM 11 can ask character reputation questions, you may do that
04:19PM 12 on guilt or innocence, if you want to get into that.
04:19PM 13 But it also opens the door for other things, gentlemen.
04:19PM 14 So if it is a trial strategy that you wish to exercise,
04:19PM 15 if you formulate the questions properly, you may ask
04:19PM 16 them.
04:19PM 17 MR. HUDSON: May I speak, Judge?
04:19PM 18 Could I just get a cite for that case that
04:19PM 19 you read to us?
04:19PM 20 THE COURT: Oh, sure, 909 SW2d 198.
04:19PM 21 MR. HUDSON: Thank you, Your Honor.
04:20PM 22 THE COURT: For what it's worth, it's in
04:20PM 23 the case that you cited saying that it allowed letters,
04:20PM 24 which it did not. So, if you understand the limits --
04:20PM 25 MR. HURLEY: Your Honor, I think the Court 102
04:20PM 1 misunderstood what I said that case cited.
04:20PM 2 THE COURT: Oh, I probably did.
04:20PM 3 But as to your request to introduce letters
04:20PM 4 and documents of that nature, I still haven't found a
04:20PM 5 case, nor have you given me a case that supports that.
04:20PM 6 MR. HURLEY: Yes, Your Honor.
04:20PM 7 THE COURT: Y'all ready?
04:20PM 8 MR. NICHOLS: Yes, Your Honor.
04:20PM 9 MR. CALFAS: We are, Your Honor.
04:20PM 10 THE COURT: Good. Bring the jury back in.
04:20PM 11 THE BAILIFF: All rise.
04:20PM 12 (In the presence of the jury.)
04:21PM 13 THE COURT: You may be seated. Let the
04:21PM 14 record reflect the jury is present, the attorneys are
04:21PM 15 present, the defendant is present. The witness is still
04:21PM 16 on the stand.
04:21PM 17 MR. CALFAS: May I proceed, Your Honor?
04:21PM 18 THE COURT: Yes, sir.
04:21PM 19 MR. CALFAS: Thank you.
04:21PM 20 Q. (MR. CALFAS) Each and every member of the FLDS
04:21PM 21 church is raised with a strong -- with a strong...
04:21PM 22 (inaudible).
04:21PM 23 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry, with a strong?
04:21PM 24 MR. CALFAS: With a strong value system.
04:21PM 25 THE REPORTER: Thank you. 103
04:21PM 1 THE WITNESS: The FLDS church teaches that.
04:21PM 2 Q. (MR. CALFAS) And from the time they're young
04:21PM 3 children, the FLDS members have training early in the
04:22PM 4 morning, as well as the afternoon, correct?
04:22PM 5 A. I'm sorry. I cannot clarify your words very
04:22PM 6 well.
04:22PM 7 Q. From the time they are young children, the FLDS
04:22PM 8 members have religious training early in the morning, as
04:22PM 9 well as in the afternoon, correct?
04:22PM 10 A. In my direct experience, yes.
04:22PM 11 Q. And as an expert on the FLDS, you know that
04:22PM 12 religious training from the Bible is a very important
04:22PM 13 part of the child's education. Every morning the child
04:22PM 14 begins school with worship and prayer, correct?
04:22PM 15 A. I cannot answer that with a simple yes or no.
04:22PM 16 Q. When you were at Alta Academy, did every
04:22PM 17 morning begin with worship and prayer?
04:22PM 18 A. Yes.
04:22PM 19 Q. And I believe that you testified on direct that
04:23PM 20 the foundation for most of the courses that you took at
04:23PM 21 Alta Academy, and later taught, was religion?
04:23PM 22 A. Yes.
04:23PM 23 Q. From the Bible?
04:23PM 24 A. But not the Bible more importantly than others.
04:23PM 25 Actually, some of the other scriptures were held more 104
04:23PM 1 important than the Bible, because they only believe in
04:23PM 2 the Bible to be true as far as it was translated
04:23PM 3 correctly.
04:23PM 4 So the basis, primarily, yes, they teach
04:23PM 5 from the Bible; however, it is not any more important at
04:23PM 6 all than any of the other scriptures.
04:23PM 7 Q. The Book of Mormon was used?
04:23PM 8 A. Yes, sir.
04:23PM 9 Q. The FLDS church believes strongly in the Bible
04:23PM 10 and the children are raised with a strong biblical
04:23PM 11 education, correct?
04:23PM 12 A. Not entirely correct, sir.
04:23PM 13 Q. The FLDS are taught early and often about the
04:24PM 14 Golden Rule: Do unto others as you would have them do
04:24PM 15 unto you, right?
04:24PM 16 A. Yes, sir.
04:24PM 17 Q. And the B attitudes: Blessed are the meek for
04:24PM 18 they shall inherit the earth; blessed are those who are
04:24PM 19 persecuted for righteousness sake, for they shall
04:24PM 20 inherit the kingdom of God; something that you learned,
04:24PM 21 isn't it?
04:24PM 22 A. Yes, sir.
04:24PM 23 Q. Did you -- have you attended meetings where
04:24PM 24 people who are prosecuting the FLDS groups tried to
04:24PM 25 enlist others to help? 105
04:24PM 1 A. Sir, would you state that again?
04:24PM 2 Q. Have you attended meetings where persons who
04:24PM 3 are prosecuting the FLDS, as a group, have tried to
04:24PM 4 enlist other people to help?
04:24PM 5 A. No, sir.
04:25PM 6 Q. Were you called as an expert in the area of
04:25PM 7 FLDS culture?
04:25PM 8 A. I'm -- I'm not sure I understand your question.
04:25PM 9 Q. Was it your understanding that you would be
04:25PM 10 called here as a witness today in the FLDS culture?
04:25PM 11 A. Yes, sir.
04:25PM 12 Q. Did you have several -- have you had several
04:25PM 13 meetings with Sheriff David Doran?
04:25PM 14 A. Since when or what? I -- during the time of
04:25PM 15 the raid when I was down here, I met them, but not since
04:25PM 16 and not before. Not several at all.
04:25PM 17 Q. You've never -- you never met David Doran prior
04:25PM 18 to the raid?
04:25PM 19 A. I had met him once briefly in passing. He was
04:25PM 20 in southern Utah for something with law enforcement. I
04:25PM 21 was down there for a wedding and my family met him -- my
04:26PM 22 husband and I met him for coffee for about
04:26PM 23 twenty minutes and then we left.
04:26PM 24 Q. Is the only time that you met David Doran,
04:26PM 25 prior to April the 8th -- I'm sorry, April of 2008, the 106
04:26PM 1 time that you met him in southern Utah?
04:26PM 2 A. Yes, sir.
04:26PM 3 Q. Did you ever meet him in Las Vegas?
04:26PM 4 A. No, sir.
04:26PM 5 Q. Both the little boys, as well as the little
04:26PM 6 girls, are both taught the religious training, aren't
04:26PM 7 they?
04:26PM 8 A. Yes, sir.
04:26PM 9 Q. And I believe you testified on direct that the
04:26PM 10 religious training is not just taught at school, but
04:26PM 11 it's also taught at home by your parents. Right?
04:26PM 12 A. Yes, sir.
04:26PM 13 Q. As a school teacher at the Alta Academy, you
04:26PM 14 taught and stressed the same religious training that you
04:26PM 15 had been taught, didn't you?
04:26PM 16 A. I'm sorry, would you say that one more time?
04:27PM 17 Q. Sure. As a school teacher at the Alta Academy,
04:27PM 18 you reinforced and taught the same religious training
04:27PM 19 that you had been taught, didn't you?
04:27PM 20 A. Yes. But more importantly, it was the
04:27PM 21 religious training that Warren put the focus on that we
04:27PM 22 taught to the students.
04:27PM 23 Q. Leroy Jessop was born into the church, wasn't
04:27PM 24 he?
04:27PM 25 A. Yes. 107
04:27PM 1 Q. LeAnn Jeffs was born into the church, wasn't
04:27PM 2 she?
04:27PM 3 A. Yes.
04:27PM 4 Q. And Leroy Jessop was taught the same religious
04:27PM 5 training that you and all the other FLDS members were
04:27PM 6 taught, wasn't he?
04:27PM 7 A. That is not entirely correct. That would need
04:27PM 8 some explaining to define that.
04:27PM 9 Q. Leon Jeffs -- LeAnn Jeffs was taught the same
04:27PM 10 religious training that everyone within the FLDS church
04:27PM 11 was taught, wasn't she?
04:28PM 12 A. Again, I believe that that is not a simple yes
04:28PM 13 or no answer. I think that needs some clarification.
04:28PM 14 Q. In addition to other things, all the members of
04:28PM 15 FLDS are educated about the concept of marriage at a
04:28PM 16 very young age, aren't they?
04:28PM 17 A. Would you say that again, I'm sorry?
04:28PM 18 Q. In addition to other things, all of the members
04:28PM 19 of the FLDS are educated about the concepts of marriage
04:28PM 20 at a very early age?
04:28PM 21 A. Yes, sir.
04:28PM 22 Q. And both the boys and the girls are taught how
04:28PM 23 important is it to be pure, aren't they?
04:28PM 24 A. Yes, sir.
04:28PM 25 Q. And the little boys and the little girls are 108
04:28PM 1 taught to -- to leave each other alone or to remain
04:28PM 2 separate?
04:28PM 3 A. Yes, sir.
04:28PM 4 Q. And they're encouraged to have very modest
04:28PM 5 contact with one another, correct?
04:28PM 6 A. I'm not sure what you mean as modest.
04:29PM 7 Q. There would be consequences if a -- if a boy
04:29PM 8 and a girl had a close -- had close contact or a close
04:29PM 9 relationship, wouldn't there?
04:29PM 10 A. So far as I understand what you mean as close
04:29PM 11 contact, yes, severe consequences.
04:29PM 12 Q. In fact, it was very, very -- was a very, very
04:29PM 13 aggrieved thing if they communicated with one another
04:29PM 14 while in school, right?
04:29PM 15 A. In my experience at school, yes.
04:29PM 16 Q. If there was a friendship like that, a boy-girl
04:29PM 17 relationship, it could result in being expelled from
04:29PM 18 school, couldn't it?
04:29PM 19 A. Yes, sir.
04:29PM 20 Q. You know Don Holm, don't you?
04:29PM 21 A. I'm not sure I know -- Don Holm?
04:29PM 22 Q. Don Holm.
04:29PM 23 A. I know of a Don Holm.
04:29PM 24 Q. How did you know Don Holm or how did you know
04:29PM 25 of a Don Holm? 109
04:30PM 1 A. I knew of a Don Holm that was in the FLDS
04:30PM 2 community in Colorado city.
04:30PM 3 Q. Was it alleged that you or he had improper
04:30PM 4 contact with one another?
04:30PM 5 A. I'm not sure what you mean by alleged, but if
04:30PM 6 you would like to open this, I would like to explain
04:30PM 7 what you're asking about.
04:30PM 8 Q. James Steed Jessop, do you know who that is?
04:30PM 9 A. I'm sorry, say that again.
04:30PM 10 Q. James Steed Jessop.
04:30PM 11 A. I need -- who are his parents? Because there's
04:30PM 12 more than one. Just to make sure that I know exactly
04:31PM 13 which James you're talking about.
04:31PM 14 Q. Phillip Macron, Jr., do you know who that is?
04:31PM 15 A. Yes, sir, I do.
04:31PM 16 Q. Did he suffer any kind of consequences or was
04:31PM 17 he disciplined for any alleged improper contact with
04:31PM 18 anyone?
04:31PM 19 A. I have no idea. Not to my knowledge.
04:31PM 20 Q. What are some of the consequences for the FLDS
04:31PM 21 adults if they have sexual contact outside of marriage?
04:31PM 22 A. For an FLDS adult? In my experience, if a man
04:31PM 23 had committed adultery or had -- then he lost his
04:31PM 24 family. His ladies were reassigned to another man and
04:31PM 25 he was sent away. Sometimes, then, he was allowed to 110
04:31PM 1 remain among the people, but either way he lost his
04:31PM 2 priesthood.
04:31PM 3 Q. There are certain FLDS marital covenants that
04:32PM 4 must be followed to avoid possible excommunication from
04:32PM 5 the church, correct?
04:32PM 6 A. I'm sorry, would you repeat that?
04:32PM 7 Q. Sure. There are certain FLDS marital covenants
04:32PM 8 that must be followed in order to avoid possible
04:32PM 9 excommunication from the church, correct?
04:32PM 10 A. Yes.
04:32PM 11 Q. And if the men don't do what the prophet tells
04:32PM 12 them, they'll be disciplined won't they?
04:32PM 13 A. There's consequences, yes.
04:32PM 14 Q. If the men don't do what the prophet tells
04:32PM 15 them, they could get kicked out of the church, couldn't
04:32PM 16 they?
04:32PM 17 A. It would depend on what they did or didn't do.
04:32PM 18 Q. They could lose their families if they didn't
04:32PM 19 follow the teachings of what the prophet told them to
04:32PM 20 do, couldn't they?
04:32PM 21 A. Again, that depends on what the act was that
04:32PM 22 they had committed or not obeyed.
04:32PM 23 Q. You -- Leroy Jeffs was told to marry LeAnn
04:33PM 24 Jeffs, wasn't he?
04:33PM 25 A. I'm sorry. Leroy Jeffs? 111
04:33PM 1 Q. Leroy Jessop, I'm sorry. Leroy Jessop was told
04:33PM 2 he was going to marry LeAnn Jeffs, wasn't he?
04:33PM 3 A. I was not there at the time of their marriage.
04:33PM 4 I don't know.
04:33PM 5 Q. The celestial marriages that we talked about or
04:33PM 6 you talked about on direct examination, they're not
04:33PM 7 about physical attraction and/or sex, are they?
04:33PM 8 A. Physical attraction or what?
04:33PM 9 Q. Or sex.
04:33PM 10 A. I'm not sure I understand what your -- what you
04:33PM 11 define as "are about." Would you restate that, please?
04:33PM 12 Q. Well, the celestial marriages are about
04:33PM 13 procreation and not recreation, right?
04:33PM 14 A. Again, I'm not sure what you -- would you
04:33PM 15 restate that as in recreation or procreation, would you
04:33PM 16 more clearly ask that question?
04:34PM 17 Q. There's no dating prior to a celestial
04:34PM 18 marriage, is there?
04:34PM 19 A. There is no dating in the FLDS community for
04:34PM 20 marriage at all.
04:34PM 21 Q. There's absolutely no sexual contact, no
04:34PM 22 kissing prior to a celestial marriage, is there?
04:34PM 23 A. No, sir, there should not be, by their
04:34PM 24 teachings.
04:34PM 25 Q. And the idea or theory behind this is for 112
04:34PM 1 procreation purposes, correct?
04:34PM 2 A. Not entirely.
04:34PM 3 Q. Some men actually marry older women, don't
04:34PM 4 they?
04:34PM 5 A. In some cases, yes.
04:34PM 6 Q. Some of the women who maybe become widows are
04:35PM 7 reassigned so that they can be taken care of, correct?
04:35PM 8 A. I'm sorry, say that again.
04:35PM 9 Q. Some of the -- some of the women who become
04:35PM 10 widows are reassigned so they can be taken care of?
04:35PM 11 A. Yes, sir.
04:35PM 12 Q. Do members of the FLDS church marry one another
04:35PM 13 because of religion and not for any other reason, right?
04:35PM 14 A. That is not entirely correct.
04:35PM 15 Q. Is it mostly correct?
04:35PM 16 A. I can't say what your mostly means and what my
04:35PM 17 mostly means.
04:35PM 18 Q. Once the FLDS members -- once the FLDS members
04:35PM 19 are told they're going to get married, it sometimes
04:35PM 20 happens fairly quickly, doesn't it?
04:35PM 21 A. Yes, sir.
04:35PM 22 Q. And because there's -- there's no dating prior
04:36PM 23 to getting marriage, sometimes it's days or even months
04:36PM 24 before there's any intimacy between the two, correct?
04:36PM 25 A. I cannot answer that with a simple yes or no. 113
04:36PM 1 Q. You're familiar with the FLDS -- FLDS
04:36PM 2 communities in Colorado City, aren't you?
04:36PM 3 A. Yes, sir.
04:36PM 4 Q. And you're familiar with some of the members
04:36PM 5 that make up the FLDS community in Eldorado, known as
04:36PM 6 the YFZ Ranch, aren't you?
04:36PM 7 A. Yes, sir.
04:36PM 8 Q. And there are many talented members of the
04:36PM 9 various FLDS communities, aren't there?
04:36PM 10 A. I'm not sure I understand what you mean as
04:36PM 11 talented.
04:36PM 12 Q. There are people who, after graduation from
04:36PM 13 high school, go on to college to further their
04:36PM 14 education, right?
04:36PM 15 A. That is not entirely correct.
04:36PM 16 Q. There are people in the FLDS that are doctors,
04:37PM 17 right?
04:37PM 18 A. They have a couple, but it is not something
04:37PM 19 that is offered for the people to choose to do --
04:37PM 20 Q. There are people --
04:37PM 21 A. -- to go to college.
04:37PM 22 Q. There are people in the FLDS that are dentists,
04:37PM 23 aren't there?
04:37PM 24 A. There is -- that, I believe, needs some
04:37PM 25 clarification. Yes, there is a dentist among the 114
04:37PM 1 people.
04:37PM 2 Q. There are people in the FLDS that are
04:37PM 3 engineers, aren't there?
04:37PM 4 A. Yes.
04:37PM 5 Q. There are people that are carpenters?
04:37PM 6 A. Yes.
04:37PM 7 Q. Plumbers?
04:37PM 8 A. Yes.
04:37PM 9 Q. Law enforcement?
04:37PM 10 A. Yes.
04:37PM 11 Q. Nurses?
04:37PM 12 A. Yes.
04:37PM 13 Q. Fire fighters?
04:37PM 14 A. Yes.
04:37PM 15 Q. EMS personnel?
04:37PM 16 A. Yes.
04:37PM 17 Q. And, in fact, in and around the Colorado City
04:37PM 18 area, the EMS is made up primarily of FLDS members;
04:37PM 19 isn't that true?
04:37PM 20 A. That services the Colorado City area, yes, they
04:38PM 21 are primarily FLDS members.
04:38PM 22 Q. There are a lot of FLDS owned machine shops?
04:38PM 23 A. I'm sorry, I can't hear you. What?
04:38PM 24 Q. There are a lot of FLDS owned machine shops?
04:38PM 25 A. I don't know. 115
04:38PM 1 Q. Your father had been an engineer and a
04:38PM 2 geologist?
04:38PM 3 A. Yes, sir.
04:38PM 4 Q. He graduated from BYU?
04:38PM 5 A. Yes, sir.
04:38PM 6 Q. And he owned one of the highest tech machine
04:38PM 7 shops in the country, didn't he?
04:38PM 8 A. He owned a shop. I don't know if he was the
04:38PM 9 highest tech. I don't know on that.
04:38PM 10 Q. He designed and manufactured parts for NASA and
04:38PM 11 the space shuttle, didn't he?
04:38PM 12 A. Yes, sir.
04:38PM 13 Q. There are FLDS members that are state-certified
04:38PM 14 school teachers, aren't there?
04:38PM 15 A. A few, yes.
04:38PM 16 Q. And those people believe and practice the same
04:38PM 17 religious principles that Leroy Jessop practices,
04:38PM 18 correct?
04:38PM 19 A. Who people?
04:38PM 20 Q. People we just discussed, the fire fighters,
04:38PM 21 the EMS, the police, the doctors, the dentists.
04:39PM 22 A. I -- that is not entirely correct.
04:39PM 23 MR. CALFAS: May we approach, Your Honor?
04:39PM 24 THE COURT: Yes.
04:39PM 25 (Sotto voce discussion at bench as 116
04:40PM 1 follows:)
04:40PM 2 MR. CALFAS: I wanted to ask her some
04:40PM 3 questions about Dan Fischer.
04:40PM 4 THE COURT: About what?
04:40PM 5 MR. CALFAS: Dan Fischer, the Diversity
04:40PM 6 Foundation, some of the things that I guess Mr. Nichols
04:40PM 7 addressed in his pretrial Motion in Limine. I'll try to
04:40PM 8 phrase them in a way that doesn't inflame the State too
04:40PM 9 bad, but they're questions that I would like to get
04:40PM 10 answers to. I think they go to her motivations and
04:40PM 11 biases to testify.
04:40PM 12 MR. NICHOLS: If they can show some
04:40PM 13 potential bias of the witness, I mean, he's obviously
04:40PM 14 entitled to probe into that. I'm not trying to prohibit
04:40PM 15 that. I just hope if he gets into certain areas --
04:40PM 16 MR. CALFAS: Let me grab a -- get -- just
04:40PM 17 one second. I'll be right back. Let me go back to my
04:40PM 18 briefcase, five seconds.
04:41PM 19 THE COURT: It's raining. (Directed to
04:41PM 20 jury.)
04:41PM 21 MR. NICHOLS: It's an appropriate day for a
04:41PM 22 funeral.
04:41PM 23 MR. CALFAS: Your Honor, I don't
04:41PM 24 necessarily want to go into this letter, but -- and I
04:41PM 25 don't -- this is a letter that I believe was written by 117
04:41PM 1 Becky Musser to her sisters, Allison and Sherry. And
04:41PM 2 apparently, on the top paragraph, it talks about that
04:41PM 3 she's upset with the fact that she's lost communication
04:41PM 4 with her family as a result of the religion and that it
04:41PM 5 says: We will not stop until we have open
04:41PM 6 communication. And I don't know who she's talking
04:41PM 7 about.
04:41PM 8 MR. NICHOLS: Let me see. (Perusing
04:42PM 9 exhibit).
04:42PM 10 If he wants to open the door on this,
04:42PM 11 Judge, I can't stop him from doing it.
04:42PM 12 THE COURT: Okay.
04:42PM 13 MR. HURLEY: Judge, you've asked about
04:42PM 14 adversity and her animosity and bias --
04:42PM 15 THE COURT: I'm sorry. You need to speak
04:42PM 16 up so I can hear you.
04:42PM 17 MR. HURLEY: We need to inquire into her
04:42PM 18 motive, animosity and bias to testify whether she's
04:42PM 19 received any money or anything of benefit from the
04:42PM 20 State, from Dan Fischer, from Diversity, things like
04:42PM 21 that. So we would just want to advise the Court of
04:42PM 22 that.
04:42PM 23 MR. NICHOLS: I'm not aware of any ruling
04:42PM 24 that the Judge has made that says you can't inquire of
04:42PM 25 those areas. 118
04:42PM 1 THE COURT: I don't think I have. Thanks
04:42PM 2 for approaching.
04:42PM 3 MR. CALFAS: (Inaudible).
04:42PM 4 THE COURT: I prefer that.
04:42PM 5 MR. CALFAS: Can I get my exhibit back,
04:42PM 6 Your Honor?
04:42PM 7 THE COURT: Who's got it?
04:42PM 8 MR. CALFAS: It's right here on the bench.
04:42PM 9 MR. NICHOLS: Can we leave it up there,
04:42PM 10 please? It's been marked.
04:43PM 11 MR. CALFAS: Okay. Do I have to leave it
04:43PM 12 up there?
04:43PM 13 THE COURT: Come on, guys. Has it been
04:43PM 14 marked and is it admitted?
04:43PM 15 MR. CALFAS: It hasn't been admitted, Your
04:43PM 16 Honor. I marked it for identification purposes.
04:43PM 17 THE COURT: Continue.
04:43PM 18 (Sotto voce discussion at bench concluded.)
04:43PM 19 Q. (MR. CALFAS) You were disappointed and unhappy
04:43PM 20 by the fact that your sisters, Allison Wall and Sharon
04:43PM 21 Wall -- Sherry Wall, have ended communication with you,
04:43PM 22 correct?
04:43PM 23 A. Yes, sir.
04:43PM 24 Q. And they have continued to live within the FLDS
04:43PM 25 communities and asked that you not interfere with their 119
04:43PM 1 lives any longer, correct?
04:44PM 2 A. I have no knowledge of what community they live
04:44PM 3 in. I -- they disappeared in early 2005 and I have had
04:44PM 4 no contact with them since.
04:44PM 5 Q. Has anybody given you any benefit for
04:44PM 6 testifying against the FLDS?
04:44PM 7 A. No, sir.
04:44PM 8 Q. No benefit whatsoever?
04:44PM 9 A. No, sir.
04:44PM 10 Q. You haven't received any travel expenses?
04:44PM 11 A. I have been reimbursed for some travel
04:44PM 12 expenses, but that is it.
04:45PM 13 Q. Have you been promised any reward from Dan
04:45PM 14 Fischer or the Diversity Foundation?
04:45PM 15 A. No, sir.
04:45PM 16 Q. Who else is behind your action against the FLDS
04:45PM 17 church?
04:45PM 18 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, I'll object to
04:45PM 19 the argumentative nature of the question, action against
04:45PM 20 the FLDS church.
04:45PM 21 THE COURT: You want to rephrase your
04:45PM 22 question?
04:45PM 23 MR. CALFAS: I will, Your Honor.
04:45PM 24 Q. (MR. CALFAS) Is there anyone else behind your
04:45PM 25 testimony against Merril Leroy Jessop? 120
04:45PM 1 A. I'm not sure what I understand -- that I
04:45PM 2 understand anyone else behind my action against. I have
04:46PM 3 no action except I was asked to come here to tell the
04:46PM 4 truth.
04:46PM 5 Q. Do you know who Dan Fischer is?
04:46PM 6 A. Yes, sir.
04:46PM 7 Q. How do you know Dan Fischer?
04:46PM 8 A. He was a dentist that we would go to and I also
04:46PM 9 went to school with some of his children while his
04:46PM 10 family was in the FLDS community.
04:46PM 11 Q. When's the last time you've spoken to Dan
04:46PM 12 Fischer?
04:46PM 13 A. I am -- wow, I don't even recall.
04:46PM 14 Q. Has it been so long that you don't remember or
04:46PM 15 you just don't remember when the last time that you
04:46PM 16 talked to him?
04:46PM 17 A. It's been a few months. I saw him briefly in
04:46PM 18 passing, because I was with his niece.
04:46PM 19 Q. Where did you see him at?
04:46PM 20 A. In Salt Lake City.
04:46PM 21 Q. That was a few months ago?
04:46PM 22 A. Yes.
04:46PM 23 Q. Have you kept him updated on -- on what's going
04:47PM 24 on?
04:47PM 25 A. No, sir. 121
04:47PM 1 Q. Have you ever received any money from Dan
04:47PM 2 Fischer, whatsoever?
04:47PM 3 A. No, sir.
04:47PM 4 Q. Have you ever received any -- any benefits as
04:47PM 5 far as clothing, lodging, cell phones --
04:47PM 6 A. No, sir.
04:47PM 7 Q. -- anything of that nature from Dan Fischer?
04:47PM 8 A. I'm sorry. Would you ask that again? I don't
04:47PM 9 get anything from him.
04:47PM 10 Q. How about the Diversity Foundation?
04:47PM 11 A. No, sir.
04:47PM 12 Q. What about Sam Brower?
04:47PM 13 A. No, sir.
04:47PM 14 Q. How much money did your sister get from her
04:47PM 15 book deal?
04:47PM 16 A. I have no idea.
04:47PM 17 Q. No idea at all?
04:47PM 18 A. None.
04:47PM 19 Q. Do you know whether or not Dan Fischer gave her
04:47PM 20 any money?
04:47PM 21 A. I have no idea.
04:48PM 22 Q. Has your sister given you any money?
04:48PM 23 A. No, sir.
04:48PM 24 Q. Did you go with your sister, Elissa, to meet
04:48PM 25 with plaintiff attorney, Joann Suder, in Baltimore? 122
04:48PM 1 A. Yes, sir, I did.
04:48PM 2 Q. Who paid for the expenses to fly to Boston or
04:48PM 3 Balt -- who paid for the expenses to go see Joann Suder?
04:48PM 4 A. I don't even know. I was asked to go and talk
04:48PM 5 to her to -- concerning a victim's rights in the case
04:48PM 6 that was charge -- Warren was charged with.
04:48PM 7 Q. Who asked you to go talk to her?
04:48PM 8 A. My sister did.
04:48PM 9 Q. Is it possible that the -- that the Diversity
04:48PM 10 Foundation paid for that?
04:48PM 11 A. I have no idea.
04:48PM 12 Q. Is it possible that Dan Fischer paid for that?
04:49PM 13 A. I have no idea.
04:49PM 14 Q. How much money were you expecting from that if
04:49PM 15 a lawsuit got filed?
04:49PM 16 A. I have no expectations of any money from any
04:49PM 17 lawsuit.
04:49PM 18 Q. Did you go out to the YFZ Ranch during the raid
04:49PM 19 on -- in April 2008?
04:49PM 20 A. Yes, sir.
04:49PM 21 Q. Had you ever seen so many law enforcement
04:49PM 22 officers in one place in your life?
04:49PM 23 A. I don't know that I -- I don't know. There was
04:49PM 24 a lot out there. I've seen a lot at different things.
04:49PM 25 I don't know that I could answer that question 123
04:49PM 1 accurately. There was a lot at the ranch, yes.
04:49PM 2 Q. Whose idea was it for you to go on to the YFZ
04:49PM 3 Ranch?
04:49PM 4 A. I was asked by law enforcement to come down and
04:49PM 5 help them.
04:49PM 6 Q. Who with law enforcement?
04:49PM 7 A. The Sheriff of Schleicher County.
04:50PM 8 Q. David Doran?
04:50PM 9 A. Yes, sir.
04:50PM 10 Q. When did David Doran ask you to go on to the
04:50PM 11 YFZ Ranch?
04:50PM 12 A. After they had found girls that were pregnant
04:50PM 13 that were underage, and so I don't know -- I don't
04:50PM 14 recall what day it was, but it was after they were on
04:50PM 15 the ranch. Then -- in their questioning these girls who
04:50PM 16 were pregnant, then the verbiage that CPS was asking,
04:50PM 17 the FLDS girls were not understanding.
04:50PM 18 And so they called me and asked me if I
04:50PM 19 would come and help them bridge the gap between -- for
04:50PM 20 instance, they would ask a girl who was very pregnant or
04:50PM 21 had given birth: Have you had sex? And she did not --
04:50PM 22 she would say no; she did not understand what sex meant.
04:50PM 23 So they had asked me if I could come and
04:51PM 24 help and -- in that -- just in that instance, basically,
04:51PM 25 I would say: No, what you need to ask is do you -- have 124
04:51PM 1 you been placed in marriage; have you had a marriage
04:51PM 2 relationship. That is why I was called.
04:51PM 3 Q. Were you involved in the planning of the search
04:51PM 4 of the YFZ Ranch?
04:51PM 5 A. No, sir.
04:51PM 6 Q. When did you first meet Mr. Eric Nichols?
04:51PM 7 A. I don't know. I can't remember.
04:51PM 8 Q. How many times have you spoken to Mr. Nichols
04:51PM 9 since the first time you've met him?
04:51PM 10 A. I don't know. I don't recall. Not much, only
04:51PM 11 in dealing with this.
04:51PM 12 Q. How many different days were you on the ranch?
04:51PM 13 A. I don't know right off the top of my head. I
04:52PM 14 was -- I was not out there at the beginning. I -- but
04:52PM 15 when I did arrive, I don't know how many days into the
04:52PM 16 raid that it was. But I was there, I think, three days.
04:52PM 17 So that -- I was there until they pulled off, for the
04:52PM 18 last three days that the Rangers and the law enforcement
04:52PM 19 were on the ranch.
04:52PM 20 Q. How long were you on the ranch the first day?
04:52PM 21 A. Most of the day. I went out in the morning and
04:52PM 22 I was there most of the day.
04:52PM 23 Q. And who all were you -- who all were you with
04:52PM 24 when you were on the ranch the first day?
04:53PM 25 A. I don't even know. I -- there was so many 125
04:53PM 1 people that came and asked questions, I couldn't even
04:53PM 2 tell you.
04:53PM 3 Q. Who took you on the ranch the first day?
04:53PM 4 A. I believe it was one of the Sheriff's deputies.
04:53PM 5 Q. Do you remember which one?
04:53PM 6 A. No.
04:53PM 7 Q. And why did you have to go into the temple when
04:53PM 8 you went to the ranch?
04:53PM 9 A. I was asked by law enforcement to go in and
04:53PM 10 look at some of the things that they had found.
04:53PM 11 Q. There were no CPS -- there were no kids or CPS
04:54PM 12 personnel inside the temple, were there?
04:54PM 13 A. Not to my knowledge.
04:54PM 14 Q. How long were you on the ranch the second day?
04:54PM 15 A. Most of the day.
04:54PM 16 Q. And you said that you -- you were on the ranch
04:54PM 17 the last three days that law enforcement was there?
04:54PM 18 A. If I remember correctly.
04:55PM 19 Q. Were you aware that all the children were
04:55PM 20 removed from the ranch by noon on the 4th?
04:55PM 21 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor -- I apologize,
04:55PM 22 Judge. I just took an Altoid. I didn't realize this
04:55PM 23 question was coming.
04:55PM 24 Your Honor, objection to relevance. We've
04:55PM 25 dealt with this issue before and it's also subject to a 126
04:55PM 1 prior Court order.
04:55PM 2 MR. CALFAS: I'm just responding to her
04:55PM 3 testimony that she was there to counsel with CPS with
04:55PM 4 regards to how to interact with the moms and the kids.
04:55PM 5 THE COURT: So you asked a question and
04:55PM 6 that then opens the door to ask questions we've already
04:55PM 7 talked about not asking? You want to rephrase your
04:55PM 8 question?
04:55PM 9 MR. CALFAS: Yes, ma'am, Your Honor.
04:56PM 10 Q. (MR. CALFAS) Were the children gone when you
04:56PM 11 went into the temple?
04:56PM 12 A. I do not -- I cannot answer that with a simple
04:56PM 13 yes or no.
04:56PM 14 Q. How long were you at the ranch on the -- on the
04:56PM 15 third day that you were there?
04:56PM 16 A. I was there until law enforcement pulled off
04:56PM 17 that day, that last day.
04:56PM 18 Q. Do you know how long -- like what time you got
04:56PM 19 there, what time you left?
04:56PM 20 A. I got there in the morning and I don't recall
04:56PM 21 what time. It wasn't all day, though, if I remember
04:56PM 22 right.
04:56PM 23 Q. What was your purpose for going on to the ranch
04:56PM 24 the third day?
04:56PM 25 A. It was -- again, law enforcement had asked me 127
04:56PM 1 to come and help them interpret some of the things that
04:56PM 2 they had found.
04:56PM 3 Q. During your time in Texas during the raid,
04:57PM 4 where did you stay?
04:57PM 5 A. I stayed at a motel in Sonora.
04:57PM 6 Q. And was that paid for by someone other than
04:57PM 7 yourself?
04:57PM 8 A. Yes, sir.
04:57PM 9 Q. Do you know who paid for that?
04:57PM 10 A. No, I don't.
04:57PM 11 Q. Where did you come from or where were you
04:57PM 12 living when you were asked to come to Texas to
04:57PM 13 participate in the raid?
04:57PM 14 A. In Idaho.
04:57PM 15 Q. Do you remember signing in when you went into
04:57PM 16 the temple?
04:57PM 17 A. Oh, I don't recall.
04:57PM 18 MR. CALFAS: May I approach the witness,
04:57PM 19 Your Honor?
04:57PM 20 THE COURT: Sure.
04:57PM 21 Q. (MR. CALFAS) I'm handing you what's been marked
04:57PM 22 as Defendant's Exhibit Number 7, which is the temple
04:58PM 23 log. And do you see your name indicated anywhere on the
04:58PM 24 temple log?
04:58PM 25 A. Yes, sir, I do. 128
04:58PM 1 Q. And what date does the log indicate that you
04:58PM 2 entered the temple?
04:58PM 3 A. On the 7th.
04:58PM 4 Q. And what time does it indicate that you entered
04:58PM 5 the temple?
04:58PM 6 A. 10:45 PM.
04:58PM 7 Q. And the person that would have entered the
04:58PM 8 temple before you, does it appear to be Shawn Palmer
04:58PM 9 with the Texas Rangers?
04:58PM 10 A. Yes, sir.
04:58PM 11 Q. And what time does it appear that he entered
04:58PM 12 the temple?
04:58PM 13 A. 9:43.
04:58PM 14 Q. And the person that entered the temple after
04:58PM 15 you, does it also appear to be Shawn Palmer with the
04:58PM 16 Texas Rangers?
04:58PM 17 A. Yes, sir.
04:58PM 18 Q. And what time did he enter the temple?
04:59PM 19 A. 10:14.
04:59PM 20 Q. And so if -- the way that the temple log worked
04:59PM 21 is that whoever entered the temple log (sic) would just
04:59PM 22 write their name in the space below where the last
04:59PM 23 person entered their name, correct?
04:59PM 24 A. Yes.
04:59PM 25 Q. Is there any reason why your time doesn't -- 129
04:59PM 1 doesn't -- isn't in chronological order like all the
04:59PM 2 other times on the temple log?
04:59PM 3 A. I -- I don't know. I don't recall.
04:59PM 4 Q. Is it -- is it possible that you were somewhere
04:59PM 5 other than Idaho when you -- when you came to Texas to
04:59PM 6 participate?
04:59PM 7 A. No, sir.
05:00PM 8 Q. And you stated that you're currently living in
05:00PM 9 Idaho?
05:00PM 10 A. Yes, sir.
05:00PM 11 Q. Back to the temple. When you went into the
05:00PM 12 temple, who took you into the temple?
05:00PM 13 A. I went in with different law enforcement and I
05:00PM 14 don't even know, there was so many people, they would
05:00PM 15 ask me to come. I don't -- it was with some ranchers
05:00PM 16 that I went in. I didn't know who they were.
05:00PM 17 Q. Did they sign in -- did you see them sign in
05:00PM 18 when you went into the temple with them?
05:00PM 19 A. There was so much going on, I don't -- I
05:00PM 20 honestly don't recall.
05:00PM 21 Q. Were you allowed just to go wherever you wanted
05:00PM 22 or did you have a member of law enforcement assigned to
05:00PM 23 you at all times?
05:00PM 24 A. I was with law enforcement at all times.
05:00PM 25 Q. Were you with Brooks Long when you went into 130
05:01PM 1 the temple?
05:01PM 2 A. Yes, sir, he was there.
05:01PM 3 Q. Was Shawn Palmer there?
05:01PM 4 A. I don't know who Shawn Palmer is.
05:01PM 5 Q. Now, David Doran is the Sheriff of Schleicher
05:01PM 6 County, correct?
05:01PM 7 A. Yes, sir.
05:01PM 8 Q. And Schleicher County is the county where the
05:01PM 9 YFZ Ranch is located, correct?
05:01PM 10 A. Yes, sir.
05:01PM 11 Q. When did you first meet Sheriff David Doran?
05:01PM 12 A. It was the meeting for coffee that I
05:01PM 13 described --
05:01PM 14 Q. I'm sorry?
05:01PM 15 A. Say again?
05:01PM 16 Q. I didn't hear what you said, I'm sorry.
05:01PM 17 A. It was at the time that I described previously
05:01PM 18 where we met and had coffee in southern Utah. That
05:01PM 19 would have been sometime in the summer of 2007.
05:01PM 20 Q. Would it be accurate if David Doran stated that
05:02PM 21 he had been acquainted with you for four years prior to
05:02PM 22 the raid?
05:02PM 23 A. I believe so. That would be about right.
05:02PM 24 Q. How often did you communicate with David Doran?
05:02PM 25 A. It was whenever an issue -- well, I mean, I 131
05:02PM 1 couldn't say it was with any regularity. When there
05:02PM 2 were -- there was questions that came up.
05:02PM 3 Q. How -- how is it that you -- I guess -- I asked
05:02PM 4 you how did you first meet him, and you said you met him
05:03PM 5 in southern Utah in 2007.
05:03PM 6 A. Yes, sir.
05:03PM 7 Q. But you had been communicating with him long
05:03PM 8 before then, correct?
05:03PM 9 A. Yes, sir.
05:03PM 10 Q. When is the first time that you ever spoke to
05:03PM 11 him or sent an e-mail to him or he sent an e-mail;
05:03PM 12 when's the first time you ever had any contact with
05:03PM 13 Schleicher County Sheriff David Doran?
05:03PM 14 A. I first contacted him -- actually, I started --
05:03PM 15 it was rumored that one of my sister-wives had left,
05:03PM 16 that she had basically escaped the Texas property. I
05:03PM 17 was well aware that there was a compound being built.
05:03PM 18 And people would call me and say that: Did this
05:03PM 19 particular sister-wife live with you, how is she doing?
05:03PM 20 And from me, knowing how very hard it is for a woman to
05:03PM 21 leave that, I was very concerned.
05:03PM 22 And so I started with, actually, the AG's
05:04PM 23 Office in Austin. And I was looking for any information
05:04PM 24 to find out if this sister-wife, who was also my
05:04PM 25 mother's sister, who I loved and cared about dearly, if 132
05:04PM 1 she had left, if she -- and if, in theory, if she was in
05:04PM 2 protective custody, that if there was any way I could
05:04PM 3 get in touch with her to give her my name and number so
05:04PM 4 that if indeed she did leave, that I could, if she chose
05:04PM 5 to, be a support to her, because I knew how lonely, how
05:04PM 6 very, very hard it is to leave that.
05:04PM 7 And so from the AG's Office, they said:
05:04PM 8 You need to call this person. And then I was passed
05:04PM 9 back and forth until I ended up with the Sheriff's
05:04PM 10 Office in Schleicher County.
05:04PM 11 Q. My question was, what is the first time that
05:05PM 12 you ever had any communication with Sheriff David Doran?
05:05PM 13 A. I believe that would have been in 2004.
05:05PM 14 Q. How many times -- when's the last time you had
05:05PM 15 contact with Sheriff David Doran?
05:05PM 16 A. I saw him at the last trial in -- in December,
05:05PM 17 I think.
05:05PM 18 Q. Allan Keate's trial?
05:05PM 19 A. Yes, sir.
05:05PM 20 Q. How many times between the first time you
05:05PM 21 talked to him or had contact with him have you
05:05PM 22 communicated with him -- between the first time and the
05:05PM 23 last time, how many times have you communicated with
05:05PM 24 him?
05:05PM 25 A. I have no idea. 133
05:05PM 1 Q. If he said over a hundred, would that be
05:05PM 2 accurate?
05:05PM 3 A. Yes, I would say that would be accurate.
05:06PM 4 Q. The allegation that your sister had left or
05:06PM 5 escaped from the ranch, that turned out to be a hoax,
05:06PM 6 did it not?
05:06PM 7 A. I said my sister-wife Ora, my -- who is my
05:06PM 8 aunt.
05:06PM 9 Q. That turned out not to be true, didn't it?
05:06PM 10 A. I never found her.
05:06PM 11 Q. You don't know that she left the ranch, do you?
05:06PM 12 A. No, sir.
05:06PM 13 Q. You have a very close relationship with Sheriff
05:06PM 14 David Doran, don't you?
05:06PM 15 A. No, sir.
05:06PM 16 Q. How are you currently employed?
05:07PM 17 A. I'm sorry, excuse me?
05:07PM 18 Q. How are you currently employed?
05:07PM 19 A. I am currently not employed.
05:07PM 20 Q. How long have you been not employed?
05:07PM 21 A. For about nine months.
05:07PM 22 Q. How do you survive?
05:07PM 23 A. I am married and my husband's -- between my
05:07PM 24 husband and I, I -- that's my personal business. I'm
05:07PM 25 sorry. 134
05:07PM 1 Q. Is there anyone else other than your husband
05:07PM 2 that's assisting you financially?
05:07PM 3 A. No, sir.
05:07PM 4 Q. Does he pay for all your medical treatment?
05:07PM 5 A. I'm sorry, what?
05:07PM 6 Q. Does he pay for all your medical treatment?
05:07PM 7 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, I object to
05:07PM 8 relevance as to her medical treatment.
05:08PM 9 THE COURT: Relevance?
05:08PM 10 MR. CALFAS: Your Honor, I'm just trying to
05:08PM 11 make sure that she's not getting any -- any -- assisting
05:08PM 12 her in her medical treatment or dental treatment.
05:08PM 13 THE COURT: And the relevance of that would
05:08PM 14 be what?
05:08PM 15 MR. CALFAS: Well, that would be a benefit
05:08PM 16 that she's receiving from someone.
05:08PM 17 THE COURT: And the relevance of that as to
05:08PM 18 this case would be what?
05:08PM 19 MR. CALFAS: Her motive, animus, bias to
05:08PM 20 testify.
05:08PM 21 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, the question was
05:08PM 22 whether her husband was providing her with money for her
05:08PM 23 medical. How is that relevant to --
05:08PM 24 THE COURT: Motive, bias or animus?
05:08PM 25 MR. NICHOLS: I don't know, Your Honor. 135
05:08PM 1 MR. CALFAS: I think the question was: Is
05:08PM 2 anyone other than your husband assisting you in your
05:08PM 3 medical treatment?
05:08PM 4 THE COURT: If you can answer the question.
05:08PM 5 THE WITNESS: Say it again.
05:08PM 6 Q. (MR. CALFAS) Is anyone other than your husband
05:08PM 7 assisting you in any medical treatment you might need?
05:09PM 8 A. No, sir.
05:09PM 9 Q. Is anyone other than your husband assisting you
05:09PM 10 in any dental treatment you might need?
05:09PM 11 A. No, sir.
05:09PM 12 Q. And you testified that you received travel
05:09PM 13 reimbursement for the Raymond Jessop trial?
05:09PM 14 A. No, sir.
05:09PM 15 Q. You did not receive travel reimbursement for
05:09PM 16 the Raymond Jessop trial?
05:09PM 17 A. No, sir, I have not.
05:10PM 18 MR. CALFAS: May I approach the witness,
05:10PM 19 Your Honor?
05:10PM 20 THE COURT: You may.
05:10PM 21 Do y'all need a break, ladies and
05:10PM 22 gentlemen? Okay.
05:10PM 23 Q. (MR. CALFAS) I'm handing you a transcript of
05:10PM 24 "State of Texas versus Raymond Merril Jessop." And at
05:10PM 25 page 100, line 22 -- read line 15 through line 22 to 136
05:10PM 1 yourself, please.
05:10PM 2 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, may I review what
05:11PM 3 he's showing the witness?
05:11PM 4 THE COURT: Sure.
05:11PM 5 (Reviewing.)
05:11PM 6 THE WITNESS: This that it's referring
05:11PM 7 to... (Incomprehensible).
05:11PM 8 MR. NICHOLS: That's okay. That's all
05:11PM 9 right. I just wanted to see what he was showing her,
05:11PM 10 Judge. Thank you.
05:11PM 11 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, what's your
05:11PM 12 question about that?
05:11PM 13 Q. (MR. CALFAS) That -- well, you received travel
05:11PM 14 arrangements -- did you receive travel arrangements from
05:11PM 15 the Merril Leroy Jessop trial, travel expenses?
05:11PM 16 A. I have not been reimbursed for any travel
05:11PM 17 expenses from anything, other than from the raid, from
05:11PM 18 the time that I was down here from the raid.
05:11PM 19 Q. Well, actually, you were asked in that trial:
05:12PM 20 What kind of compensation, monetary compensation, have
05:12PM 21 you received from the State of Texas prior to testifying
05:12PM 22 here today? And your answer was...
05:12PM 23 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, this is improper
05:12PM 24 impeachment. He hasn't shown that there's anything in
05:12PM 25 this transcript that's inconsistent from what she 137
05:12PM 1 testified. He needs to read her the transcript --
05:12PM 2 MR. CALFAS: Actually, it says --
05:12PM 3 THE COURT: Okay. Ladies and gentlemen,
05:12PM 4 y'all please step out.
05:12PM 5 THE BAILIFF: All rise.
05:12PM 6 THE COURT: Calm down, Mr. Hurley.
05:12PM 7 (Outside the presence of the jury.)
05:12PM 8 THE COURT: Be seated, please. Let the
05:13PM 9 record reflect the jury has been retired.
05:13PM 10 Mr. Nichols, would you like to make your
05:13PM 11 objection again, please?
05:13PM 12 MR. NICHOLS: Yes, Your Honor. This is
05:13PM 13 improper use of prior testimony. Prior to counsel
05:13PM 14 reading prior testimony, it is a requirement under the
05:13PM 15 rules that it be shown as a predicate that somehow the
05:13PM 16 witness has testified inconsistently with something that
05:13PM 17 has been said in the past. There's been no such
05:13PM 18 showing. And counsel's question and answer does not
05:13PM 19 indicate that there has been any such inconsistent
05:13PM 20 statement.
05:13PM 21 MR. CALFAS: Well, Judge, I disagree,
05:13PM 22 respectfully.
05:13PM 23 THE COURT: Just help me out here. Tell me
05:13PM 24 what the question is you're reading from the -- the
05:13PM 25 transcript and what her answer was. 138
05:13PM 1 MR. CALFAS: Question: What kind of
05:13PM 2 compensation, monetary compensation, have you received
05:13PM 3 from the State of Texas prior to testifying here today?
05:13PM 4 Answer: I've been reimbursed for travel
05:13PM 5 expenses.
05:13PM 6 MR. NICHOLS: And, Your Honor, that
05:13PM 7 question and answer is completely consistent with what
05:13PM 8 she's already testified to. She said she was
05:14PM 9 compensated for travel expenses in association with her
05:14PM 10 having been down to the ranch at the time of the raid.
05:14PM 11 There's no inconsistency at all.
05:14PM 12 THE COURT: Mr. Hurley -- Mr. Hurley, you
05:14PM 13 said that's not what the record reflects. What does the
05:14PM 14 record reflect? Help the Court out.
05:14PM 15 MR. HURLEY: Well, let's have the Court
05:14PM 16 Reporter read it.
05:14PM 17 THE COURT: All right. I guess the
05:14PM 18 question is, which records? The record you're reading
05:14PM 19 from or this record that we're here at?
05:14PM 20 MR. HURLEY: Her prior testimony about
05:14PM 21 receiving --
05:14PM 22 THE COURT: In this case?
05:14PM 23 MR. HURLEY: Yes.
05:14PM 24 THE COURT: Not prior testimony, her
05:14PM 25 testimony in this case? 139
05:14PM 1 MR. HURLEY: Yes.
05:09PM 2 THE REPORTER: Question: And you testified
05:09PM 3 that you received travel reimbursement for the Raymond
05:09PM 4 Jessop trial?
05:09PM 5 Answer: No, sir.
05:09PM 6 Question: You did not receive travel
05:09PM 7 reimbursement for the Raymond Jessop trial?
05:09PM 8 Answer: No, sir, I have not.
05:15PM 9 MR. NICHOLS: But then there's another
05:15PM 10 question and answer that dealt with the issue of
05:16PM 11 reimbursement from the raid. It's in the record.
05:17PM 12 (Colloquy while reporter looking. Stopped.
05:17PM 13 looking. The following was had:)
05:17PM 14 THE COURT: The Court's understanding of
05:17PM 15 what you need to do to impeach with prior inconsistent
05:17PM 16 testimony is to ask the exact question that you're
05:17PM 17 reading and give them the opportunity to answer the
05:17PM 18 question. Then you show that to them and give them the
05:17PM 19 opportunity to say: Yes, I testified -- or -- or
05:17PM 20 respond to it differently in light of having been shown
05:17PM 21 that. And I don't think that's exactly the order that
05:17PM 22 it happened in.
05:17PM 23 But, let's just go through it again. Okay?
05:17PM 24 Can we do that?
05:17PM 25 MR. CALFAS: Yes, ma'am, Your Honor. 140
05:17PM 1 THE COURT: All right. Let's bring the
05:17PM 2 jury back.
05:18PM 3 The jury's taking a break, so if you-all
05:18PM 4 need a break, now would be the time to take your break.
05:18PM 5 Let us know when the jury's back and ready.
05:18PM 6 THE BAILIFF: Yes, ma'am. All rise.
05:18PM 7 (Recess.)
05:32PM 8 (During break Court Reporter showed
05:32PM 9 attorneys testimony that had been
05:32PM 10 previously inquired about.)
05:32PM 11 THE COURT: Are we good to go?
05:32PM 12 MR. CALFAS: Yes, ma'am.
05:32PM 13 THE COURT: Awesome.
05:32PM 14 THE BAILIFF: All rise.
05:33PM 15 (In the presence of the jury.)
05:33PM 16 THE COURT: Be seated, please. Let the
05:33PM 17 record reflect the jury is present; the defendant is
05:33PM 18 present; the lawyers are present; and the witness is
05:33PM 19 still on the stand.
05:33PM 20 Next question, please.
05:33PM 21 MR. CALFAS: Thank you, Your Honor.
05:33PM 22 Q. (MR. CALFAS) What kind of compensation,
05:33PM 23 monetary compensation, had you received from the State
05:33PM 24 of Texas prior to testifying in the Raymond Jessop
05:33PM 25 trial? 141
05:33PM 1 A. I had received reimbursement for travel
05:33PM 2 expenses for the raid.
05:33PM 3 Q. And you had also -- had you also received
05:34PM 4 reimbursement for lodging expenses?
05:34PM 5 A. No, sir.
05:34PM 6 Q. Had you received reimbursement for meals?
05:34PM 7 A. Yes, sir.
05:34PM 8 Q. With regard to the time you came for the raid
05:34PM 9 or with regard to the time you came to testify in
05:34PM 10 Raymond Merril Jessop's trial, or both times?
05:34PM 11 A. With regard to the time that I was down here
05:34PM 12 for the raid.
05:34PM 13 Q. But it's your recollection that you did not
05:34PM 14 receive any reimbursement for lodging?
05:34PM 15 A. No, sir. It was for air travel and meals. I
05:34PM 16 don't know how it was recorded, but that is my
05:34PM 17 knowledge.
05:34PM 18 MR. CALFAS: May I approach the witness,
05:34PM 19 Your Honor?
05:34PM 20 THE COURT: Yes, sir.
05:35PM 21 Q. (MR. CALFAS) I'm handing you a transcript
05:35PM 22 styled, "The State of Texas versus Raymond Merril
05:35PM 23 Jessop," and on page 100, starting at line 15, read line
05:35PM 24 15, through that page, on to page 101 to about line 7 to
05:35PM 25 yourself. 142
05:36PM 1 A. (Witness complying.) Okay.
05:36PM 2 Q. Did you receive reimbursement or payment for
05:36PM 3 lodging?
05:36PM 4 A. To the best of my knowledge, the reimbursement
05:36PM 5 was a per diem for meals for the days that I was here at
05:36PM 6 the time of the raid and for air travel expenses. I
05:36PM 7 don't -- I didn't pay for the hotel, so I didn't ask for
05:36PM 8 money to reimburse that.
05:36PM 9 Q. So someone paid for your hotel?
05:36PM 10 A. Yes, sir.
05:36PM 11 Q. Do you know who paid for the hotel?
05:36PM 12 A. No, sir.
05:37PM 13 Q. And that was with regard to the raid?
05:37PM 14 A. Yes.
05:37PM 15 Q. Did you get paid -- did anyone pay for your
05:37PM 16 lodging or your travel expenses or your meals at the
05:37PM 17 time you came for the Raymond Merril Jessop trial?
05:37PM 18 A. My airfare, I don't -- I -- my airfare
05:37PM 19 arrangements are made and also my hotel arrangements are
05:37PM 20 made. I pay for everything else.
05:37PM 21 Q. And when you say that your hotel arrangements
05:37PM 22 and your airfare arrangements are made, do you mean
05:37PM 23 they're also paid for?
05:37PM 24 A. Yes, sir.
05:37PM 25 Q. By someone other than yourself? 143
05:37PM 1 A. Yes, sir.
05:37PM 2 Q. And you assume that that's, I guess, the
05:37PM 3 Attorney General's Office?
05:37PM 4 A. I'm assuming so, yes. They -- they are the
05:37PM 5 ones that give me that information of my flight and my
05:37PM 6 hotel.
05:37PM 7 Q. And, likewise, when you came for the Allan
05:37PM 8 Keate trial, your airfare and lodging was --
05:37PM 9 arrangements were made and paid for by someone other
05:38PM 10 than yourself?
05:38PM 11 A. Yes, sir.
05:38PM 12 Q. Were you given any other allowances or
05:38PM 13 benefits, such as clothing allowance or anything like
05:38PM 14 that?
05:38PM 15 A. No, sir.
05:38PM 16 Q. For the reimbursement with regard to the raid,
05:38PM 17 do you remember how much that was?
05:38PM 18 A. I think it was a little over a thousand
05:38PM 19 dollars. I do not recall the exact amount.
05:38PM 20 Q. And, likewise, were you -- I guess you were
05:38PM 21 reimbursed for your travel expenses and your lodging, as
05:38PM 22 well as your meals, to come here and testify against
05:38PM 23 Merril Leroy Jessop?
05:38PM 24 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, again, it's been
05:38PM 25 asked and answered, and now he's asking her if she was 144
05:38PM 1 reimbursed when she's already testified that some of
05:38PM 2 those items were -- she never paid for to begin with.
05:38PM 3 THE COURT: Let's move on.
05:39PM 4 Q. (MR. CALFAS) You're -- you're not out any money
05:39PM 5 to come testify against Merril Leroy Jessop, are you?
05:39PM 6 A. Would you ask that again, please?
05:39PM 7 Q. Your travel arrangements and lodging and meals
05:39PM 8 have been paid for in order for you to come and testify
05:39PM 9 here today, have they not?
05:39PM 10 A. I pay for my meals.
05:39PM 11 Q. Are you going to be reimbursed for that?
05:39PM 12 A. I do not know.
05:39PM 13 Q. How many times have you spoken to Angie Voss?
05:39PM 14 A. I spoke to her at the CPS -- when, at the time
05:39PM 15 of the raid? I couldn't put a number on. I talked to
05:39PM 16 so many people. I don't know.
05:39PM 17 Q. Have you talked -- have you spoken with her
05:39PM 18 since the raid?
05:39PM 19 A. I saw her here when I was waiting to testify on
05:39PM 20 Friday and I said hello to her.
05:39PM 21 Q. Between the time of the raid and the time you
05:40PM 22 saw her on Friday, had you spoken with her?
05:40PM 23 A. No, sir.
05:40PM 24 Q. And you know that Angie Voss is the head of
05:40PM 25 Child Protective Services, don't you? 145
05:40PM 1 A. No, I don't know what office she holds. I know
05:40PM 2 she's with CPS. That's all.
05:40PM 3 Q. Did you come and -- and train CPS or any Child
05:40PM 4 Protective Service workers prior to the raid?
05:40PM 5 A. No, sir.
05:40PM 6 Q. Did you have any contact with any Child
05:40PM 7 Protective Services prior to the raid?
05:40PM 8 A. No, sir.
05:40PM 9 Q. How many different people did you train with
05:40PM 10 Child Protective Services with regard to the raid?
05:40PM 11 A. I have no idea.
05:40PM 12 Q. Was it numerous?
05:40PM 13 A. Yes.
05:40PM 14 Q. Were you compensated for that?
05:40PM 15 A. No.
05:40PM 16 Q. Other than Sheriff David Doran, Mr. Eric
05:41PM 17 Nichols, Angie Voss and some of the Texas Rangers in
05:41PM 18 this case, what other Texas government officials have
05:41PM 19 you worked with?
05:41PM 20 A. I don't know who's a government official with
05:41PM 21 the people that I work with. Just -- I don't know.
05:41PM 22 Q. Are you familiar with certain people that have
05:41PM 23 spent large sums of money to attack the FLDS and their
05:41PM 24 way of life?
05:41PM 25 A. And the what? 146
05:41PM 1 Q. Are you familiar with people who have spent
05:41PM 2 large sums of money to attack the FLDS and their way of
05:42PM 3 life?
05:42PM 4 A. No, sir.
05:42PM 5 Q. You know Dan Fischer, don't you?
05:42PM 6 A. Yes, sir.
05:42PM 7 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, this has been
05:42PM 8 asked and answered.
05:42PM 9 THE COURT: Asked and answered.
05:42PM 10 Q. (MR. CALFAS) How much contact, directly or
05:42PM 11 indirectly, have you had with Dan Fischer?
05:42PM 12 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, that's been asked
05:42PM 13 and answered.
05:42PM 14 THE COURT: Asked and answered.
05:42PM 15 Q. (MR. CALFAS) Have you ever been a patient of
05:42PM 16 Dr. Beall?
05:42PM 17 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, may we approach?
05:42PM 18 THE COURT: You may.
05:42PM 19 (Outside the hearing of the jury.)
05:42PM 20 THE COURT: Yes.
05:42PM 21 MR. NICHOLS: Seems at this point he's
05:42PM 22 trying to invade a patient-doctor relationship, if one
05:42PM 23 exists.
05:43PM 24 MR. CALFAS: Well, Your Honor --
05:43PM 25 THE COURT: Mr. Calfas. 147
05:43PM 1 MR. CALFAS: I think the -- Mr. Hudson and
05:43PM 2 I think the -- part of our defense is that some of these
05:43PM 3 witnesses that have testified for the State and
05:43PM 4 repeatedly testified for the government in various
05:43PM 5 trials here in the State of Texas and elsewhere have a
05:43PM 6 motive and animus, bias, have --
05:43PM 7 THE COURT: How is having seen somebody to
05:43PM 8 treat her, a psychologist or psychiatrist, how does that
05:43PM 9 go to motive and bias?
05:43PM 10 MR. CALFAS: We think that to some extent
05:43PM 11 they're all in it together. We think that it's our
05:43PM 12 position, we real -- I believe that it's our position
05:43PM 13 that Dan Fischer and --
05:43PM 14 THE COURT: I understand that they created
05:43PM 15 this to get the defendant, I understand. But how does
05:43PM 16 asking her who she may have received any type of
05:43PM 17 treatment from, how does that go to anything admissible
05:43PM 18 in court?
05:43PM 19 MR. CALFAS: We -- we think that it --
05:44PM 20 MR. HURLEY: It would be a benefit --
05:44PM 21 THE COURT: Benefit?
05:44PM 22 MR. CALFAS: It would be a benefit, Judge,
05:44PM 23 because if she's getting free treatment from Dr. Beall
05:44PM 24 or the Diversity Foundation, Dan Fischer, somebody else
05:44PM 25 is paying for her treatment by Dr. Beall, then it shows 148
05:44PM 1 a -- not just shows -- it shows a direct relation for
05:44PM 2 her motivation to testify, as well as Dr. Beall's. I
05:44PM 3 mean --
05:44PM 4 MR. NICHOLS: If in a hypothetical world
05:44PM 5 someone is required to get psychiatric treatment, Your
05:44PM 6 Honor, how could that possibly be described as a
05:44PM 7 benefit?
05:44PM 8 MR. CALFAS: If they're not paying for it.
05:44PM 9 MR. HURLEY: Because it costs money.
05:44PM 10 (Sotto voce discussion at bench concluded.)
05:44PM 11 THE COURT: Okay. Why don't you-all step
05:44PM 12 outside.
05:44PM 13 THE BAILIFF: All rise.
05:45PM 14 (Outside the presence of the jury.)
05:45PM 15 THE COURT: I would ask the lawyers to step
05:45PM 16 back up here.
05:45PM 17 (Sotto voce discussion at the bench as
05:45PM 18 follows:)
05:45PM 19 THE COURT: You know, it's possible the --
05:45PM 20 that we're beating a dead horse over something that
05:45PM 21 doesn't make any difference at all. Maybe the State
05:45PM 22 could just ask or somebody could ask her if she's
05:45PM 23 received any treatment from this doctor, and if the
05:45PM 24 answer is no we can move on.
05:45PM 25 MR. NICHOLS: I'm not sure that I -- I'm 149
05:45PM 1 cape -- I mean, I don't know that I should be invading a
05:45PM 2 patient-doctor relationship either, Your Honor. Maybe
05:45PM 3 the Court wants to talk to the witness in camera. I --
05:45PM 4 I mean, this is -- I mean, you just don't go messing
05:45PM 5 with patient-doctor relationships. You just don't. And
05:45PM 6 to suggest that some -- that a person, even if she were
05:45PM 7 receiving -- was required to receive psychiatric
05:45PM 8 treatment --
05:45PM 9 THE COURT: Hang on.
05:45PM 10 Y'all may be seated. (Directed to the
05:45PM 11 gallery.)
05:45PM 12 MR. NICHOLS: Even if she was required to
05:45PM 13 receive psychiatric treatment that somehow that could
05:45PM 14 ever be construed in any context as being a benefit, I
05:46PM 15 mean, are they seriously contending that that is
05:46PM 16 something that would help to impeach a witness as
05:46PM 17 opposed to further establishing her credibility and the
05:46PM 18 harm that was caused to somebody that would have to seek
05:46PM 19 psychiatric treatment? This is not only an invasion
05:46PM 20 of -- potentially of a doctor-patient relationship, but
05:46PM 21 is asking to wade into something that -- that could
05:46PM 22 only --
05:46PM 23 MR. HURLEY: Can I respond?
05:46PM 24 THE COURT: When he finishes.
05:46PM 25 MR. HURLEY: I'm just wondering when. 150
05:46PM 1 THE COURT: Continue, Mr. Nichols.
05:46PM 2 MR. NICHOLS: Wading into something that
05:46PM 3 could only serve to establish the witness's credibility
05:46PM 4 and not any bias.
05:47PM 5 MR. HURLEY: Are you finished?
05:47PM 6 MR. NICHOLS: Yes.
05:47PM 7 MR. HURLEY: Can I respond?
05:47PM 8 THE COURT: In a moment.
05:47PM 9 Now, Mr. Hurley.
05:47PM 10 MR. HURLEY: Your Honor, it is our
05:47PM 11 contention it's -- this witness has already stated that
05:47PM 12 she traveled to Baltimore with a sister to talk to a
05:47PM 13 plaintiff's lawyer about filing suit against the FLDS.
05:47PM 14 And we believe that she was referred by Dr. Beall and
05:47PM 15 Dan Fischer to this lawyer in Baltimore; that there is
05:47PM 16 an -- an attempt to file a lawsuit against the FLDS and
05:47PM 17 get compensation, and that Doctor Beall is receiving
05:47PM 18 compensation from Diversity and Dan Fischer to provide
05:47PM 19 treatment for these people with Dr. Beall, so that Dr.
05:47PM 20 Beall will be a testifying expert in the civil trials.
05:48PM 21 MR. NICHOLS: If I may respond, Your Honor.
05:48PM 22 If this is the new theory of the
05:48PM 23 conspiracy, why don't they just ask that question, which
05:48PM 24 is: Did Dr. Beall refer you to this lawyer in
05:48PM 25 Baltimore? Why ask a question that has a potential of 151
05:48PM 1 invading a confidential patient-doctor relationship?
05:48PM 2 MR. HURLEY: Judge --
05:48PM 3 MR. CALFAS: And --
05:48PM 4 MR. HURLEY: -- we -- I -- we would like to
05:48PM 5 ask the question that we believe is appropriate. And we
05:48PM 6 don't think we're required to ask only the questions
05:48PM 7 that Mr. Nichols --
05:48PM 8 THE COURT: I understand. But I think
05:48PM 9 you've gone way beyond what is reasonable to go into
05:48PM 10 biases and prejudice of the witness.
05:48PM 11 MR. HURLEY: So --
05:48PM 12 THE COURT: Can you give me any case that
05:48PM 13 allows you to do this?
05:48PM 14 MR. HURLEY: Yes. It's called Davis versus
05:48PM 15 Alaska. It is a Supreme Court case that shows bias,
05:48PM 16 animus and motive is always relevant on credibility.
05:48PM 17 THE COURT: Is that really what Davis says?
05:49PM 18 MR. HURLEY: Yes.
05:49PM 19 THE COURT: Davis says -- that case, they
05:49PM 20 were entitled to go into a plea bargain that a juvenile
05:49PM 21 had made where his co-defendant was being tried.
05:49PM 22 MR. HURLEY: For bias, animus and --
05:49PM 23 THE COURT: Juvenile co-defendant.
05:49PM 24 MR. CALFAS: Judge, the Carol case that we
05:49PM 25 provided to you yesterday -- I'm sorry. 152
05:49PM 1 THE COURT: You didn't give me anything
05:49PM 2 yesterday.
05:49PM 3 MR. CALFAS: I know, Judge. I stand
05:49PM 4 corrected. That we provided to you on Friday talks
05:49PM 5 about how wide latitude to the defendant shall be given
05:49PM 6 when going into issues that might...(inaudible)... the
05:49PM 7 witness's motivation for motive, bias, prejudice,
05:49PM 8 animus. I know that's not it there, Judge, because it's
05:49PM 9 got smaller writing.
05:49PM 10 THE COURT: It might -- it's this one right
05:49PM 11 here.
05:49PM 12 MR. CALFAS: Yes, ma'am.
05:49PM 13 THE COURT: Well, I will read this and
05:49PM 14 you-all move along and we'll ask some other questions
05:49PM 15 and I'll get back to you.
05:49PM 16 MR. CALFAS: I'm running out of questions,
05:49PM 17 Judge, but I will move along.
05:50PM 18 THE COURT: Good.
05:50PM 19 I'm sorry. Could y'all come back up here?
05:50PM 20 The part I liked about Carol was where it
05:50PM 21 says specifically a trial judge may limit cross
05:50PM 22 examination when a subject is exhausted or when the
05:50PM 23 cross examination is designed to annoy, harass or
05:50PM 24 humiliate, or when the cross examination may endanger
05:50PM 25 the personal safety of a witness. 153
05:50PM 1 MR. CALFAS: But, Judge, I haven't asked
05:50PM 2 her any questions at all about Dr. Beall. It was the
05:50PM 3 first question I asked her and I didn't ask it in a
05:50PM 4 harassing or annoying fashion. I simply asked her:
05:50PM 5 Have you ever been a patient of Dr. Beall. And --
05:50PM 6 THE COURT: What about that humiliate?
05:50PM 7 Maybe having to admit that you've received psychological
05:50PM 8 treatment wouldn't fall under humiliating?
05:50PM 9 MR. CALFAS: I didn't ask her in a
05:50PM 10 manner -- I didn't even mention that Dr. Beall was a
05:51PM 11 psychologist or psychiatrist.
05:51PM 12 MR. MAU: Any doctor-patient relationship
05:51PM 13 is privileged because it humiliates --
05:51PM 14 THE COURT: Stop. One at a time.
05:51PM 15 MR. CALFAS: Judge --
05:51PM 16 THE COURT: Y'all may not have manners
05:51PM 17 anyplace else, but in my courtroom --
05:51PM 18 MR. CALFAS: I apologize, Judge.
05:51PM 19 THE COURT: And that means don't interrupt
05:51PM 20 me either when I'm talking.
05:51PM 21 Now you may continue, sir.
05:51PM 22 MR. MAU: The reason why doctors are
05:51PM 23 prohibited from talking about what their patients tell
05:51PM 24 them or what treatments they give their patients is the
05:51PM 25 very reason why it should not be brought up to humiliate 154
05:51PM 1 a witness. People aren't wanting to have their medical
05:51PM 2 records and their medical treatments aired in public.
05:51PM 3 Doctors are -- have a specific rule for doctors
05:51PM 4 prohibiting them from doing that for that very reason.
05:51PM 5 And for him to stand here and say: I don't
05:51PM 6 see why this would be humiliating. I don't see why she
05:51PM 7 shouldn't be proud to say she's being treated by a
05:51PM 8 doctor, is completely disingenuous.
05:51PM 9 MR. NICHOLS: And, Your Honor, to suggest
05:52PM 10 that the jury's not going to hear Dr. Beall is a
05:52PM 11 clinical psychiatrist is also -- if we get to the
05:52PM 12 sentencing phase in this case, that's going to come out.
05:52PM 13 THE COURT: I understand about asking about
05:52PM 14 pecuniary benefits, and in Carol they wanted to ask the
05:52PM 15 defendant's mother about a lawsuit filed against the
05:52PM 16 apartment complex where the child was assaulted. So
05:52PM 17 that question was actually kind of related to the case
05:52PM 18 that was being tried and her benefits.
05:52PM 19 I don't see how asking if someone paid for
05:52PM 20 medical treatment, psychological treatment, I'm not sure
05:52PM 21 that that ties in with any of this. But you've already
05:52PM 22 asked her if anybody's ever paid for any of that
05:52PM 23 treatment, so you've already covered that.
05:52PM 24 MR. CALFAS: Your Honor, I have nine
05:52PM 25 questions that I would like to ask her; and if the Court 155
05:52PM 1 is telling me that I cannot do it in front of the jury,
05:53PM 2 that's fine. But in that case, can we do a bill of
05:53PM 3 exception real briefly before the jury comes back in?
05:53PM 4 THE COURT: As to what you think her
05:53PM 5 answers would be to that questions? Because that's what
05:53PM 6 the bill of exception is. This is the evidence we would
05:53PM 7 proffer, not whether or not she's required to --
05:53PM 8 MR. CALFAS: I thought this Court had
05:53PM 9 instructed us before that the way this Court handles her
05:53PM 10 bills of exceptions is --
05:53PM 11 THE COURT: I have in the past on some
05:53PM 12 issues, but on this issue --
05:53PM 13 MR. CALFAS: -- answers --
05:53PM 14 THE COURT: -- to make her answer that
05:53PM 15 question would defeat the whole purpose of not making
05:53PM 16 her answer the question.
05:53PM 17 MR. HURLEY: Okay. Then I can -- we can
05:53PM 18 solve this.
05:53PM 19 We are not being permitted to ask her
05:53PM 20 questions in this area under a bill of exception, is
05:53PM 21 that what we understand?
05:53PM 22 THE COURT: I'm saying that if the reason
05:53PM 23 for asking her questions about whether or not this
05:53PM 24 doctor treated her because of trauma that she might have
05:53PM 25 received from her relationship or ending her 156
05:53PM 1 relationship with the FLDS, if you're doing that because
05:54PM 2 you think that she receives some pecuniary benefit,
05:54PM 3 that that line of questioning is inappropriate. You've
05:54PM 4 already asked if anyone has paid for any treatments that
05:54PM 5 she's received.
05:54PM 6 You maybe have not asked if anyone has paid
05:54PM 7 for any psychological treatments that she received. You
05:54PM 8 may ask that question. But to go into a specific
05:54PM 9 provider, yes, at this time you may not do it.
05:54PM 10 MR. HURLEY: Okay, Your Honor. And we're
05:54PM 11 not being permitted to make a bill about that matter?
05:54PM 12 THE COURT: No, I didn't say you wouldn't
05:54PM 13 make a bill. I said I will not permit you to make the
05:54PM 14 bill by asking this witness questions. You may make an
05:54PM 15 offer of proof of what you think the answers to your
05:54PM 16 questions would be if you were permitted to ask them.
05:54PM 17 MR. HURLEY: Well, I would state for the
05:54PM 18 record that we have a good faith reason to believe that
05:55PM 19 this witness and others have been treated by Dr. Beall
05:55PM 20 in preparation of a civil lawsuit where they are seeking
05:55PM 21 plaintiff's lawyers to file. I believe a Mr. Hewell in
05:55PM 22 Las Vegas has also been consulted and we believe that
05:55PM 23 that -- that that treatment is being paid for by Dan
05:55PM 24 Fischer and the Diversity Foundation.
05:55PM 25 THE COURT: Why don't you ask her if she is 157
05:55PM 1 a potential plaintiff in a lawsuit. That would really
05:55PM 2 be something that could be appropriate and the Court
05:55PM 3 would allow that.
05:55PM 4 The Court is simply limiting you to asking
05:55PM 5 if someone else has paid for her -- or particularly for
05:55PM 6 her to see Dr. Beall. I haven't even limited you from
05:55PM 7 being able to ask if someone has paid for her to see a
05:55PM 8 treating psychiatrist or psychologist. I've simply said
05:55PM 9 we're not going to go into the particular individual.
05:56PM 10 MR. HURLEY: We're clear and we'll finish
05:56PM 11 with the questions that we can ask. We -- we object to
05:56PM 12 not being able to ask specific question about Dr. Beall.
05:56PM 13 THE COURT: And -- now, I want to be sure
05:56PM 14 exactly you understand what I've said. You can ask
05:56PM 15 about whether or not she is a potential plaintiff in a
05:56PM 16 lawsuit against the FLDS, which is what I understood you
05:56PM 17 said that Dr. Beall had referred her, which is -- really
05:56PM 18 has nothing to do with treatment.
05:56PM 19 MR. HURLEY: Well --
05:56PM 20 THE COURT: But it is -- you may not ask
05:56PM 21 about any treatment that she has received. Other
05:56PM 22 relationships, I'm not ruling on.
05:56PM 23 MR. HURLEY: And we're clear and we object
05:56PM 24 that that violates our right under the 6th Amendment and
05:56PM 25 14th Amendment to confrontation, and it violates our 158
05:56PM 1 rights of -- under Article 1, Section 10 of the Texas
05:56PM 2 Constitution to complete confrontation and compulsory
05:57PM 3 process, and it violates our right to due process under
05:57PM 4 the 5th and 14th Amendments.
05:57PM 5 THE COURT: Mr. Nichols, you want to jump
05:57PM 6 in here?
05:57PM 7 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, we've made these
05:57PM 8 arguments before. It's basically the same argument with
05:57PM 9 respect to their kind of shot in the dark subpoena that
05:57PM 10 they sent to Dr. Beall, which the Court has heard on two
05:57PM 11 separate occasions. It is -- has granted the State's
05:57PM 12 motion to quash and for protective order.
05:57PM 13 This type of invasion into a patient-doctor
05:57PM 14 relationship is wholly -- has not been shown to be the
05:57PM 15 least bit relevant to this case and not material to this
05:57PM 16 case, and the Court has been correct in -- in denying
05:57PM 17 these inquiries into the specifics of patient
05:57PM 18 relationships.
05:57PM 19 And as the Court has pointed out on
05:57PM 20 numerous occasions during this colloquy, there are
05:57PM 21 questions, direct questions, that could be asked to
05:57PM 22 elicit the responses that defense counsel apparently
05:58PM 23 want to get that have nothing to do with the specifics
05:58PM 24 of a patient-doctor relationship.
05:58PM 25 THE COURT: And the Court understands that 159
05:58PM 1 in Utah where this doctor practices they have a specific
05:58PM 2 privilege for psychiatric and -- for psychiatric or
05:58PM 3 psychological treatment.
05:58PM 4 MR. NICHOLS: Yes.
05:58PM 5 THE COURT: And that it extends to criminal
05:58PM 6 cases as well as civil cases.
05:58PM 7 MR. NICHOLS: Yes, Your Honor. It's Rule
05:58PM 8 506 of the Utah Rules of Evidence.
05:58PM 9 MR. HURLEY: And I believe the ruling of
05:58PM 10 the Court is that that statute, that privilege trumps
05:58PM 11 our 6th Amendment right of confrontation?
05:58PM 12 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, the Court has
05:58PM 13 ruled on this issue. Counsel is just trying to engage
05:58PM 14 the Court into his understanding of what the Court's
05:58PM 15 ruling is. I disagree with counsel's characterization.
05:58PM 16 And the Court has made the ruling. We feel
05:58PM 17 it's an appropriate ruling. And we would ask at this
05:58PM 18 point, given the guidance the Court has given to defense
05:59PM 19 counsel, that we all move on.
05:59PM 20 THE COURT: All right. Step back.
05:59PM 21 (Sotto voce discussion at bench concluded.)
05:59PM 22 THE COURT: Bring the jury in.
05:59PM 23 THE BAILIFF: All rise.
05:59PM 24 (In the presence of the jury.)
05:59PM 25 THE COURT: Be seated, please. Let the 160
05:59PM 1 record reflect the jury is present; the defendant is
05:59PM 2 present; the attorneys are present; the witness is on
05:59PM 3 the stand.
05:59PM 4 Next question, please, gentlemen.
06:00PM 5 Q. (MR. CALFAS) Ms. Musser, has anyone paid for
06:00PM 6 you to receive any psychiatric counseling or psychiatric
06:00PM 7 treatment?
06:00PM 8 A. Not that I'm aware of.
06:00PM 9 Q. Have -- have you had discussions with civil
06:00PM 10 lawyers regarding joining in a lawsuit against the FLDS?
06:00PM 11 A. No, sir.
06:01PM 12 Q. How many children do you have?
06:01PM 13 A. I have two.
06:01PM 14 Q. And what is the birth date of your oldest
06:01PM 15 child?
06:01PM 16 A. August 31st, 2003.
06:01PM 17 Q. And that was approximately nine months from the
06:01PM 18 date that you left the FLDS church?
06:01PM 19 A. I don't know. I never counted.
06:01PM 20 Q. You left in November of 2002?
06:01PM 21 A. Yes, sir.
06:01PM 22 Q. So December, January, February, March, April,
06:01PM 23 May, June, July, August would be nine months, wouldn't
06:01PM 24 it?
06:01PM 25 A. It would be over nine months. Are you asking 161
06:01PM 1 me if I was pregnant when I left?
06:02PM 2 (Short Pause. Court Reporter coughing.)
06:02PM 3 THE COURT: Let her answer her question
06:02PM 4 again, please. Can you answer the question?
06:02PM 5 THE WITNESS: Would you ask that question
06:02PM 6 again?
06:02PM 7 Q. (MR. CALFAS) I think I counted the months and
06:02PM 8 said that if you left in November, the -- December would
06:02PM 9 be one month, January, February, March, April, May,
06:03PM 10 June, July, August would be the ninth month --
06:03PM 11 A. Yes.
06:03PM 12 Q. -- after you left, correct?
06:03PM 13 A. Yes.
06:03PM 14 MR. CALFAS: We'll pass the witness at this
06:03PM 15 time, Your Honor.
06:03PM 16 THE COURT: Mr. Nichols.
06:03PM 17 MR. NICHOLS: May I proceed, Your Honor?
06:03PM 18 THE COURT: Yes, sir.
06:03PM 19 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
06:03PM 20 BY MR. NICHOLS:
06:03PM 21 Q. Ms. Musser, you were asked a number of
06:03PM 22 questions about the types of training that young persons
06:03PM 23 within the FLDS community receive. Do you recall those
06:03PM 24 questions?
06:03PM 25 A. Yes, sir. 162
06:03PM 1 Q. Ms. Musser, I now want to talk to you a little
06:03PM 2 bit to follow up on those questions and ask you about
06:03PM 3 the types of training, particularly that young girls
06:03PM 4 receive within the FLDS community. Could you -- could
06:03PM 5 we --
06:03PM 6 A. Yes.
06:03PM 7 Q. -- pursue that a little bit with you?
06:03PM 8 We've talked a little bit about the concept
06:03PM 9 of spiritual or celestial marriage.
06:03PM 10 A. Yes.
06:04PM 11 Q. We've talked a little bit about the church
06:04PM 12 doctrines that say that young persons are not supposed
06:04PM 13 to have any even dating relationships or anything like
06:04PM 14 that?
06:04PM 15 A. Yes, sir.
06:04PM 16 Q. Describe for the jury in your own words what
06:04PM 17 young persons and young girls are taught within the FLDS
06:04PM 18 community concerning what would happen to them if they
06:04PM 19 were to have any kind of intimate relations with any
06:04PM 20 other person, prior to being placed in the spiritual or
06:04PM 21 celestial marriage?
06:04PM 22 MR. CALFAS: Your Honor, I'm going to renew
06:04PM 23 my objection to hearsay and confrontation.
06:04PM 24 THE COURT: Mr. Nichols.
06:04PM 25 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, this was the 163
06:04PM 1 subject of defense cross examination and he went
06:04PM 2 through, at great length, to talk about certain
06:04PM 3 principles of church doctrine; also the foundation for
06:04PM 4 that testimony has been squarely laid. So we ask that
06:05PM 5 she be allowed to answer.
06:05PM 6 THE COURT: Overruled.
06:05PM 7 THE WITNESS: Could you ask that again?
06:05PM 8 I'm sorry.
06:05PM 9 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) Yes, ma'am. The question that I
06:05PM 10 asked was, can you explain to the jury in your own words
06:05PM 11 what is taught in FLDS doctrine to young girls
06:05PM 12 concerning what happens to them, what would happen to
06:05PM 13 them if they were to have any kind of intimate or
06:05PM 14 physical relations with anyone prior to being placed in
06:05PM 15 a spiritual or celestial marriage?
06:05PM 16 A. Number one, they would not be pure, considered
06:05PM 17 pure, and they would not be blessed to be placed by a
06:05PM 18 man. And a woman's complete -- she has to be given in
06:05PM 19 marriage or connected to a priesthood head for her to
06:05PM 20 even gain a salvation.
06:05PM 21 So if she was to have any type of immoral
06:06PM 22 or sexual relationship with a man, prior to being
06:06PM 23 directed by the priesthood to have that, number one, it
06:06PM 24 is -- they are told that they will be destroyed in the
06:06PM 25 flesh. Literally, that their body, in this mortal life, 164
06:06PM 1 they will have a fate where their body's literally
06:06PM 2 destroyed. And they will never have the opportunity to
06:06PM 3 be placed or sealed to a man, not in this life, nor in
06:06PM 4 the eternity; and thus, she will never gain her eternal
06:06PM 5 salvation.
06:06PM 6 Q. Now, you talked also with the jury about the
06:06PM 7 concept of priesthood and the fact that under FLDS
06:06PM 8 doctrine only men can hold priesthood.
06:06PM 9 A. Yes, sir.
06:06PM 10 Q. How does the concept of priesthood, as young
06:06PM 11 girls are taught, how does that relate to whether a
06:07PM 12 young girl growing up in the FLDS could ever achieve
06:07PM 13 eternal salvation?
06:07PM 14 A. She has to -- well, before marriage, her father
06:07PM 15 is her priesthood head; and for a woman to gain eternal
06:07PM 16 salvation, she has to be connected to that priesthood
06:07PM 17 head. So whether that is her father -- so if a young
06:07PM 18 girl died before she had the opportunity to be given in
06:07PM 19 marriage, if she was worthy and would have been, then
06:07PM 20 her priesthood head would be considered as her father.
06:07PM 21 If she's given in marriage, her loyalties
06:07PM 22 transfer to that husband and he is her connection to
06:07PM 23 being able to have that salvation or go to Heaven. She
06:07PM 24 cannot do it on her own. She has to be connected to
06:07PM 25 that priesthood head. 165
06:07PM 1 Q. Now, with respect to church doctrine,
06:08PM 2 Ms. Musser, can you tell the jury whether young girls
06:08PM 3 are taught that, if they are capable of bearing
06:08PM 4 children, whether having children has a connection to
06:08PM 5 their prospects for eternal salvation?
06:08PM 6 A. Yes, sir. As a woman, as a young girl, from
06:08PM 7 the youngest years, they're taught that the greatest
06:08PM 8 thing that a woman can become and achieve in this mortal
06:08PM 9 life is to be a mother in Zion and to bring forth pure
06:08PM 10 and clean children to be trained and raised up in the
06:08PM 11 redemption of Zion.
06:08PM 12 So a mother, that is the whole goal and
06:08PM 13 basis of her life to remain clean, pure, obedient so
06:09PM 14 that at that point in time when her father and the
06:09PM 15 prophet deem her worthy, she would be given in marriage
06:09PM 16 to that priesthood head. And her next calling is to
06:09PM 17 bring forth these spirits, these clean and pure spirits
06:09PM 18 through obedience to that father so that those children
06:09PM 19 can grow up and redeem Zion. And that is greatest thing
06:09PM 20 that she can do to be of service to God.
06:09PM 21 Q. And under FLDS doctrine, can a girl, who is
06:09PM 22 capable of bearing children, what responsibility does
06:09PM 23 she have to bear children in terms of her prospects for
06:09PM 24 eternal salvation?
06:09PM 25 MR. HURLEY: That's been asked and 166
06:09PM 1 answered, Your Honor.
06:09PM 2 MR. NICHOLS: Not this question, Your
06:10PM 3 Honor.
06:10PM 4 THE COURT: Rephrase your question, please.
06:10PM 5 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) Is there any connection in FLDS
06:10PM 6 doctrine between prospects for eternal salvation and
06:10PM 7 child bearing by those girls who are -- are capable of
06:10PM 8 bearing children?
06:10PM 9 A. Yes, sir.
06:10PM 10 Q. Can you explain that to the jury?
06:10PM 11 MR. HURLEY: We would renew our objection.
06:10PM 12 It's been asked and answered.
06:10PM 13 THE COURT: You may answer the question.
06:10PM 14 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
06:10PM 15 At that point in time that the girl is
06:10PM 16 given in marriage, that is considered an additional
06:10PM 17 blessing; and with those blessings, there's certain
06:10PM 18 requirements. And in the marriage covenants, there's a
06:10PM 19 phrase that says: Go forth and multiply and replenish
06:10PM 20 the earth. And that is a commandment and they are to
06:10PM 21 obey that; otherwise, they lose that blessing.
06:11PM 22 And so that is a part of the requirement of
06:11PM 23 the blessing of marriage, that the girl is to fulfill
06:11PM 24 that, so that she can, through obedience to that law,
06:11PM 25 have more additional blessings. But if you don't -- if 167
06:11PM 1 you don't obey that one, then that's taken away and you
06:11PM 2 don't get the additional blessings.
06:11PM 3 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) Ms. Musser, you were asked
06:11PM 4 several questions about women and their children being
06:11PM 5 reassigned --
06:11PM 6 A. Yes, sir.
06:11PM 7 Q. -- within the FLDS Church.
06:11PM 8 Can you explain for the members of the
06:11PM 9 jury, how does that process work in terms of the
06:11PM 10 reassignment of women and their children to other men?
06:11PM 11 A. In the situation where the priesthood found
06:11PM 12 that father unworthy of his priesthood, and that could
06:12PM 13 be --
06:12PM 14 MR. CALFAS: Excuse me, Your Honor, I'm
06:12PM 15 going to object. The question that I asked was upon the
06:12PM 16 death of some members and widows reassigned.
06:12PM 17 THE COURT: Mr. Nichols.
06:12PM 18 MR. NICHOLS: That wasn't the specific
06:12PM 19 question that was asked. She was asked questions about
06:12PM 20 the reassignment. I'm merely asking her to explain how
06:12PM 21 that process works.
06:12PM 22 THE COURT: Your objection's overruled.
06:12PM 23 THE WITNESS: So in regards to them being
06:12PM 24 reassigned, that could be upon the death. If -- if a
06:12PM 25 man was found worthy, however he died and he still had 168
06:12PM 1 wives that were alive, then they would need to be,
06:12PM 2 again, connected to a priesthood head, and so they would
06:12PM 3 be told and -- and sealed to another man for time only.
06:12PM 4 And so they would remain with that new husband until
06:12PM 5 their death in this mortal life; and at that point, then
06:13PM 6 they would again be connected to their first husband.
06:13PM 7 Now, there is also the situations where if
06:13PM 8 a priesthood head is found unworthy, and that can be
06:13PM 9 anywhere from disobedience to the priesthood or they've
06:13PM 10 committed a sin, but the criteria is that the priesthood
06:13PM 11 authority finds them unworthy to have a family; in other
06:13PM 12 words, they no longer hold that priesthood power.
06:13PM 13 And upon that, when the priesthood has
06:13PM 14 deemed them not worthy, they're told: You no longer
06:13PM 15 have your family. Whatever wives and children you have
06:13PM 16 are then told -- and sometimes it can be that one wife
06:13PM 17 is given to one man and another wife is given to another
06:13PM 18 man, or sometimes all of the wives will go to the same
06:13PM 19 man. But they are told to that wife: This is your new
06:14PM 20 husband. He is acknowledged as your child's --
06:14PM 21 children's father and their priesthood head, and
06:14PM 22 basically they cut off all loyalties and connections to
06:14PM 23 their previous father, whether he's biological or not.
06:14PM 24 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) Now, Ms. Musser, you were asked a
06:14PM 25 question on cross examination about whether or not a 169
06:14PM 1 young person could be notified of their placement with a
06:14PM 2 man, relatively short period of time before they were
06:14PM 3 placed. Do you remember that question?
06:14PM 4 A. Yes, sir.
06:14PM 5 Q. Now, Ms. Musser, in church doctrine, is there
06:14PM 6 any particular age that a young person -- a young girl
06:14PM 7 has to reach before she is placed in one of these
06:14PM 8 situations?
06:14PM 9 A. No, sir.
06:14PM 10 Q. Ms. Musser, you were asked a number of
06:15PM 11 questions that you indicated that you would like to give
06:15PM 12 an explanation, so I want to go through some of those
06:15PM 13 with you.
06:15PM 14 First, you were asked a question about -- I
06:15PM 15 believe about a Don Holm; is that correct?
06:15PM 16 A. Yes, sir.
06:15PM 17 Q. Can you -- and you indicated you wanted to give
06:15PM 18 an explanation about that.
06:15PM 19 A. If they wanted to open that can of worms, then
06:15PM 20 I would be happy to explain what that situation was.
06:15PM 21 Q. Well, you were asked about Don Holm, so --
06:15PM 22 MR. CALFAS: Your Honor, excuse me. I'm
06:15PM 23 sorry. I'm going to object to the characterization by
06:15PM 24 Mr. Nichols and the witness.
06:15PM 25 THE COURT: I'm sorry? 170
06:15PM 1 MR. CALFAS: I wasn't trying to open any
06:15PM 2 can of worms. I -- I'm -- I object to improper question
06:15PM 3 and improper answer.
06:15PM 4 THE COURT: You asked whether the witness
06:15PM 5 knew that individual. Mr. Nichols is entitled to go
06:16PM 6 into that.
06:16PM 7 MR. CALFAS: I understand, Your Honor.
06:16PM 8 THE COURT: Overruled.
06:16PM 9 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) And do you remember that that --
06:16PM 10 that the question that was asked concerned whether there
06:16PM 11 were allegations that you and Don Holm had a
06:16PM 12 relationship?
06:16PM 13 A. Yes, sir.
06:16PM 14 Q. Were there allegations of that nature?
06:16PM 15 A. I -- I'm not sure I understand allegations, but
06:16PM 16 I can explain the situation and --
06:16PM 17 Q. Why don't you just explain the situation.
06:16PM 18 A. Okay. So here's the deal. I was married to
06:16PM 19 Rulon Jeffs and I had -- my sister and I taught music
06:16PM 20 lessons and we had many students throughout the
06:16PM 21 community.
06:16PM 22 And I also studied piano. And I didn't
06:16PM 23 even know it, but this Don Holm was the father, I think,
06:16PM 24 or maybe an uncle of one of our students who had come.
06:16PM 25 And so within the music community, then, I believe that 171
06:16PM 1 he played the piano. I don't know. But -- so one day I
06:17PM 2 got a phone call from this man, Don Holm, and he said --
06:17PM 3 MR. HURLEY: Your Honor, we can't -- we
06:17PM 4 have to object to hearsay and right of confrontation.
06:17PM 5 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, the question that
06:17PM 6 was asked asked for hearsay. They asked if there were
06:17PM 7 allegations of a relationship, which necessarily is
06:17PM 8 calling for hearsay. I'm just merely following up on
06:17PM 9 what they asked.
06:17PM 10 THE COURT: I think the witness is entitled
06:17PM 11 to explain.
06:17PM 12 MR. HURLEY: Just so the record's clear,
06:17PM 13 we're objecting to hearsay and our Constitutional right
06:17PM 14 of confrontation.
06:17PM 15 Is our objection overruled, Your Honor?
06:17PM 16 THE COURT: Oh, yes.
06:17PM 17 MR. HURLEY: Thank you.
06:17PM 18 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) And you can continue.
06:17PM 19 A. All right. So out of the blue, I get this
06:17PM 20 phone call; and thinking it's the father or -- of one of
06:17PM 21 our students, I answered the phone. And he said, if I
06:18PM 22 remember correctly, something to the effect of: Do you
06:18PM 23 know who this is? And I said: No, what can I do for
06:18PM 24 you, sir? And he said: Well, this is Don Holm. And I
06:18PM 25 said: Okay. And I expected perhaps something to do 172
06:18PM 1 with his daughter not coming to lessons or something.
06:18PM 2 And he said: You know, I never thought
06:18PM 3 that I'd ever leave the priesthood, but I -- but I can
06:18PM 4 tell you, if Becky Jeffs would come with me, I would
06:18PM 5 leave. And I said: Excuse me? And he said: Maybe I'm
06:18PM 6 having a mid-life crisis or something, but I thought you
06:18PM 7 were looking at me in church. And I said: Sir, I have
06:18PM 8 no idea where you sit in church. I respect you as a
06:18PM 9 priesthood man and I am a happily married woman. And I
06:18PM 10 am sorry for any misunderstanding I have given you, but
06:18PM 11 I will have nothing to do with this.
06:19PM 12 I hung up the phone. I was in shock,
06:19PM 13 because this man had two wives, he had many children. I
06:19PM 14 had no idea, no prior contact at all. And so I went
06:19PM 15 promptly up to Warren Jeffs and Nephi and I said: I
06:19PM 16 really need to talk to you. And I told them: I don't
06:19PM 17 know what's up, but this is what happened. And --
06:19PM 18 Q. And so -- and just so the record is clear, at
06:19PM 19 this time you have been placed with Rulon Jeffs; is that
06:19PM 20 correct?
06:19PM 21 A. Yes, sir, for at least -- I mean, a few years,
06:19PM 22 three, four.
06:19PM 23 Q. And to the extent that anyone has suggested
06:19PM 24 that you had some kind of improper relationship with a
06:19PM 25 Don Holm, is that allegation -- would any such 173
06:19PM 1 allegation be correct?
06:19PM 2 A. No.
06:19PM 3 Q. And -- and if I'm hearing you correctly, you
06:19PM 4 reported this solicitation by someone on the phone, you
06:20PM 5 reported that to Warren Jeffs; is that correct?
06:20PM 6 A. Yes, sir.
06:20PM 7 Q. Now, you were asked a -- a question also about
06:20PM 8 a James Steed Jessop. Do you remember that question?
06:20PM 9 A. Yes.
06:20PM 10 Q. Did you have any kind of a relationship with
06:20PM 11 James Steed Jessop?
06:20PM 12 A. I'm aware of one. I don't -- I didn't do -- I
06:20PM 13 mean, I see him in the community, but that's the extent
06:20PM 14 of that relationship. I know of him. I think he's my
06:20PM 15 cousin somewhere.
06:20PM 16 Q. And to the extent anyone is trying to insinuate
06:20PM 17 that you had some kind of a physical relationship with
06:20PM 18 James Steed Jessop, would that be true?
06:20PM 19 A. Absolutely not.
06:20PM 20 Q. And I think there was another name mentioned of
06:21PM 21 Phillip Macker?
06:21PM 22 A. Yes.
06:21PM 23 Q. Do you even know who that is?
06:21PM 24 A. Yes, I do. Phil played the guitar, my sister
06:21PM 25 and I played violin, and we would -- at different 174
06:21PM 1 community events, then we would do bluegrass music
06:21PM 2 together with a couple of other people. So I knew -- I
06:21PM 3 knew Phil through music, but that was the extent of that
06:21PM 4 relationship.
06:21PM 5 Q. And to the extent anyone is trying to insinuate
06:21PM 6 that there was some kind of inappropriate or intimate
06:21PM 7 relationship, would that be correct?
06:21PM 8 A. Absolutely not.
06:21PM 9 Q. Now, Ms. Musser, you also asked to explain a
06:21PM 10 response to a question about whether Leroy Jessop
06:21PM 11 received the same training that you did. And I believe
06:21PM 12 you indicated that you needed to -- wanted to explain
06:21PM 13 that. Do you remember that?
06:21PM 14 A. Yes. Yes.
06:21PM 15 Q. This is your opportunity. Please explain why
06:21PM 16 you couldn't answer that yes or no.
06:21PM 17 A. Yes. Leroy's family was in Colorado City.
06:22PM 18 That's where he grew up. I grew up in Salt Lake,
06:22PM 19 primarily, and I attended a church -- a church-run
06:22PM 20 school where they -- they -- it was by invitation, where
06:22PM 21 they -- I mean, to be there, you had to be invited. And
06:22PM 22 much of the curriculum that we were taught in Salt Lake
06:22PM 23 was religious training in -- that had influence on all
06:22PM 24 of the subjects. I do know that Leroy went to the
06:22PM 25 public school in Colorado City where it was not as 175
06:22PM 1 strict.
06:22PM 2 So for the growing up years, then I think
06:22PM 3 that it would be fair to say I had more training, more
06:22PM 4 specific training. But as -- after I married Rulon
06:22PM 5 Jeffs, then the training that was given to the people
06:22PM 6 was generalized.
06:22PM 7 So that is what I wanted to clarify.
06:22PM 8 Q. Now, you were asked if you were familiar with
06:23PM 9 the Short Creek area; is that correct?
06:23PM 10 A. Yes, sir.
06:23PM 11 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, may I approach?
06:23PM 12 THE COURT: Yes.
06:23PM 13 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) Ms. Musser, I'm going to hand you
06:23PM 14 what we've marked and admitted as State's Exhibit 81.
06:23PM 15 A. Yes.
06:23PM 16 MR. NICHOLS: Can we put that up on the
06:23PM 17 screen, please?
06:23PM 18 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) And, Ms. Musser, the jury's seen
06:24PM 19 this picture before, but is this a picture that's taken
06:24PM 20 in the Short Creek area that you were asked about on
06:24PM 21 cross examination?
06:24PM 22 A. Yes, sir.
06:24PM 23 Q. And there is nomenclature here of UEP?
06:24PM 24 A. Yes.
06:24PM 25 Q. What does that stand for? 176
06:24PM 1 A. United Effort Plan.
06:24PM 2 Q. And there's an address listed here of 20 West
06:24PM 3 Black Avenue; is that correct?
06:24PM 4 A. Yes.
06:24PM 5 Q. Merril Leroy Jessop?
06:24PM 6 A. Yes.
06:24PM 7 Q. Are you familiar with this area of Colorado
06:24PM 8 City?
06:24PM 9 A. Yes.
06:24PM 10 Q. And is Black Avenue a -- a street --
06:24PM 11 A. Yes, sir.
06:24PM 12 Q. -- in Colorado City?
06:24PM 13 A. Yes.
06:24PM 14 Q. And you mentioned that -- told the jury earlier
06:24PM 15 that you were still in the FLDS community when Raymond
06:24PM 16 Merril Jessop engaged in his first marriage; is that
06:25PM 17 correct?
06:25PM 18 A. When Raymond? Yes, sir, but Leroy, too.
06:25PM 19 Q. Okay. Merril Leroy Jessop?
06:25PM 20 A. Yes, sir.
06:25PM 21 Q. And I'm showing you State's Exhibit 82, and
06:25PM 22 I'll ask if -- does that reflect, among others, the
06:25PM 23 person that Merril Leroy Jessop married in that first
06:25PM 24 marriage?
06:25PM 25 A. Yes. 177
06:25PM 1 Q. And what is that person's name again?
06:25PM 2 A. Jannetta Barlow.
06:25PM 3 Q. I'm going to hand you State's Exhibit 83. This
06:25PM 4 is a picture --
06:25PM 5 MR. NICHOLS: Can we pull that one up,
06:25PM 6 Mr. Mau?
06:25PM 7 MR. MAU: 83?
06:25PM 8 MR. NICHOLS: Yes, sir.
06:25PM 9 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) And is the person that you knew
06:25PM 10 as Jannetta Barlow, is she also in this photograph?
06:26PM 11 A. Yes, sir.
06:26PM 12 Q. And the jury has seen some -- see some
06:26PM 13 mountains in the background?
06:26PM 14 A. Yes.
06:26PM 15 Q. Have you seen those mountains before?
06:26PM 16 A. Yes.
06:26PM 17 Q. What part of the country is that?
06:26PM 18 A. That is in southern Utah in -- that's the
06:26PM 19 mountains that are the backdrop to Hildale and Colorado
06:26PM 20 City.
06:26PM 21 Q. Otherwise known as Short Creek?
06:26PM 22 A. Yes.
06:26PM 23 Q. And then State's Exhibit 84.
06:26PM 24 MR. NICHOLS: Could you pull that one up,
06:26PM 25 please? 178
06:26PM 1 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) Is the person you knew as
06:26PM 2 Jannetta Barlow, is she also pictured in that
06:27PM 3 photograph?
06:27PM 4 A. Yes, sir.
06:27PM 5 Q. And are those same mountains we saw before, are
06:27PM 6 they in the background?
06:27PM 7 A. Yes.
06:27PM 8 MR. NICHOLS: Can we also pull up State's
06:27PM 9 Exhibit 14-P, please?
06:27PM 10 MR. MAU: 14-P?
06:27PM 11 MR. NICHOLS: Yes, sir.
06:27PM 12 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) Is the person that you knew as
06:27PM 13 Jannetta Barlow, is she also in these various
06:27PM 14 photographs that have been marked and admitted as
06:27PM 15 State's Exhibit 14-P?
06:27PM 16 A. Yes.
06:27PM 17 Q. And in the picture, in the middle and in the
06:27PM 18 bottom right, do we see certain mountains that you've
06:27PM 19 described to the jury before?
06:27PM 20 A. Yes.
06:27PM 21 Q. And are those the same mountains around the
06:27PM 22 area of Short Creek?
06:27PM 23 A. Yes, sir.
06:27PM 24 Q. And, Ms. Musser, is there a date that appears
06:27PM 25 at the bottom left-hand side of this exhibit? 179
06:27PM 1 A. July 9th, 2006.
06:28PM 2 Q. Now, you were asked on cross examination about
06:28PM 3 going out to the YFZ Ranch and going to the temple?
06:28PM 4 A. Yes, sir.
06:28PM 5 Q. Did you go around the area that was the temple
06:28PM 6 and the temple annex?
06:28PM 7 A. Yes, sir.
06:28PM 8 Q. And can you tell the jury whether or not, based
06:28PM 9 on your observations, whether the temple and the temple
06:28PM 10 annex appeared to be the types of buildings that you
06:28PM 11 were taught about in the teachings that you've described
06:28PM 12 to the jury?
06:28PM 13 A. Yes, sir, they were.
06:28PM 14 Q. And can you tell the jury whether or not the
06:28PM 15 temple and the temple annex appeared to be the type of
06:28PM 16 buildings that you were taught from a young age would
06:28PM 17 eventually house the type of records --
06:28PM 18 MR. HURLEY: Object to suggesting answers
06:28PM 19 to the witness.
06:28PM 20 THE COURT: You mean leading? Rephrase
06:28PM 21 your question.
06:28PM 22 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) Can you tell us whether or not
06:28PM 23 those buildings, the temple and the temple annex,
06:29PM 24 appeared to you to have any connection to what you were
06:29PM 25 taught concerning the significance of sacred places in 180
06:29PM 1 keeping church records?
06:29PM 2 A. Yes, sir.
06:29PM 3 Q. What was the significance to you?
06:29PM 4 A. The significance of them were what we were
06:29PM 5 taught, even what the temple -- everything in the temple
06:29PM 6 as far as how many floors it had, the symbols on the
06:29PM 7 temple and what the different floors represented and
06:29PM 8 different things inside the temple, we were taught that
06:29PM 9 we would have those and what they would be used for.
06:29PM 10 And so what I saw directly correlated with what I had
06:29PM 11 been taught the temple would be when we had one.
06:29PM 12 Q. Now, you were asked a -- certain questions,
06:29PM 13 Ms. Musser, about your sister; is that correct?
06:29PM 14 A. Yes, sir.
06:29PM 15 Q. Who is your sister and what is her name? I
06:29PM 16 mean, what is the name of -- you were asked about --
06:29PM 17 questions about a sister who had certain issues with
06:30PM 18 respect to Warren Jeffs?
06:30PM 19 A. Yes, sir.
06:30PM 20 Q. Do you have a sister who's had certain issues
06:30PM 21 with respect to Warren Jeffs?
06:30PM 22 A. Yes.
06:30PM 23 MR. CALFAS: Your Honor, I'm going to
06:30PM 24 object to that. I asked questions about two sisters
06:30PM 25 that are currently -- 181
06:30PM 1 THE COURT: I'm sorry?
06:30PM 2 MR. CALFAS: I asked questions about two
06:30PM 3 sisters that are current FLDS members. I did not ask
06:30PM 4 any questions about a sister that had problems with
06:30PM 5 Warren Jeffs.
06:30PM 6 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, if I recall
06:30PM 7 correctly, there were questions asked about going to see
06:30PM 8 a lawyer in Baltimore.
06:30PM 9 THE COURT: Could that be the sister that
06:30PM 10 you're asking about?
06:30PM 11 MR. NICHOLS: I would let the witness speak
06:30PM 12 for herself, but I anticipate that to be the case,
06:30PM 13 Judge.
06:30PM 14 MR. HURLEY: Your Honor, this is a First
06:30PM 15 Amendment association issue and we object again. And
06:30PM 16 it's a 403, 404 (b) problem, Your Honor. We object
06:31PM 17 under those code sections.
06:31PM 18 THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer the
06:31PM 19 question.
06:31PM 20 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) The question that -- you were
06:31PM 21 asked certain questions about your sister and going to a
06:31PM 22 meeting in Baltimore. Do you recall those?
06:31PM 23 A. Yes.
06:31PM 24 Q. Who was the sister that you would have
06:31PM 25 accompanied on the trip to Baltimore? 182
06:31PM 1 A. Elissa Wall.
06:31PM 2 Q. And is Alisa -- Elissa -- am I pronouncing her
06:31PM 3 name correctly, Elissa?
06:31PM 4 A. Elissa.
06:31PM 5 Q. Elissa?
06:31PM 6 A. Yeah.
06:31PM 7 Q. Is Elissa Wall, is she a complaining witness in
06:31PM 8 a case that was brought against Warren Jeffs in Utah?
06:31PM 9 A. Yes, sir.
06:31PM 10 MR. HURLEY: Object, not relevant, Your
06:31PM 11 Honor.
06:31PM 12 MR. NICHOLS: They opened this door, Judge.
06:31PM 13 THE COURT: The Court remembers hearing
06:31PM 14 questions about visiting with a lawyer on the east
06:32PM 15 coast. Is that not where we're going?
06:32PM 16 MR. HURLEY: Yes, Your Honor, regarding the
06:32PM 17 issue of financial motive. The matters of Warren Jeffs
06:32PM 18 are not relevant to this trial and we object to that.
06:32PM 19 THE COURT: Normally you would have been
06:32PM 20 right, but you asked the questions that opened the door
06:32PM 21 for this area of questions.
06:32PM 22 Your objection's overruled.
06:32PM 23 MR. HURLEY: Thank you, Your Honor.
06:32PM 24 THE COURT: You're welcome.
06:32PM 25 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) So was your sister, Elissa Wall, 183
06:32PM 1 was she the complaining witness in a case brought
06:32PM 2 against Warren Jeffs in Utah?
06:32PM 3 A. Yes, sir.
06:32PM 4 Q. Did that case result in a criminal conviction?
06:32PM 5 A. Yes, sir.
06:32PM 6 Q. Now, Ms. Musser, you were asked a number of
06:32PM 7 questions about your inquiries of law enforcement and
06:32PM 8 particularly your inquiries of Sheriff David Doran of
06:33PM 9 Schleicher County. Do you remember those questions?
06:33PM 10 A. Yes, sir.
06:33PM 11 Q. Can you tell the jury whether you ever made any
06:33PM 12 requests of Sheriff Doran in terms of assisting you in
06:33PM 13 locating family members?
06:33PM 14 A. Yes.
06:33PM 15 Q. And please explain that to the jury.
06:33PM 16 A. After I had my initial contact with him looking
06:33PM 17 for my aunt, I -- and I merely just said: This is who I
06:33PM 18 am. If you come across her, please give her my
06:33PM 19 information. And I understood that if she possibly was
06:33PM 20 in protective custody, he could not answer that. And --
06:33PM 21 and so I did have an element of trust with -- and he was
06:33PM 22 the only law enforcement.
06:33PM 23 And when -- early in January, or early
06:33PM 24 2005, my mother and my two baby sisters just
06:34PM 25 disappeared. And we had no way to contact them, no way 184
06:34PM 1 to check on their welfare. And so upon that situation,
06:34PM 2 I contacted the Sheriff and I asked him what can be
06:34PM 3 done; was there anything legally that I, as a sibling,
06:34PM 4 could do to insure that what had happened to Elissa,
06:34PM 5 where she was fourteen and forced into a marriage --
06:34PM 6 MR. HURLEY: Your Honor, this is
06:34PM 7 nonresponsive, hearsay.
06:34PM 8 THE COURT: Question and answer, please.
06:34PM 9 MR. NICHOLS: Yes, ma'am.
06:34PM 10 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) Ms. Musser, could you please tell
06:34PM 11 the jury, did you make a request of Sheriff Doran with
06:34PM 12 respect to not only your aunt, but with respect to your
06:34PM 13 mother and your sisters?
06:34PM 14 A. Yes.
06:34PM 15 Q. And what was the request that you made?
06:34PM 16 A. I had asked what can be done through the law to
06:34PM 17 locate them.
06:34PM 18 Q. Were those efforts successful, Ms. Musser?
06:35PM 19 A. Eventually they closed the case, but I never
06:35PM 20 got to talk to them. So not successful to me, but there
06:35PM 21 was nothing that we could do to keep the case open.
06:35PM 22 Q. Ms. Musser, you've been asked a number of
06:35PM 23 questions about your personal situation and your
06:35PM 24 motives. You've told the jury you left the FLDS in --
06:35PM 25 on November 3rd of 2002; is that correct? 185
06:35PM 1 A. Yes.
06:35PM 2 Q. Can you tell the jury why you left the FLDS?
06:35PM 3 A. I had chosen to leave because I was married to
06:35PM 4 Rulon Jeffs. He died about a week before my seventh
06:35PM 5 year anniversary. And upon his death, then Warren took
06:35PM 6 over the care of his father's family. We were
06:36PM 7 originally told that we would not have to be re-married.
06:36PM 8 And there was fifty-six girls that were between the ages
06:36PM 9 of seventeen and thirty-four that were married to Rulon
06:36PM 10 Jeffs.
06:36PM 11 And so after Rulon died, then Warren took
06:36PM 12 over and basically directed who -- what we should do.
06:36PM 13 And one month to the day of his father's death, Warren
06:36PM 14 started marrying his father's young wives, himself.
06:36PM 15 MR. HURLEY: Your Honor, if we could just
06:36PM 16 have a running objection. This is not relevant to Leroy
06:36PM 17 Jessop.
06:36PM 18 THE COURT: You want to respond?
06:36PM 19 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, these cross
06:36PM 20 examinations raise certain questions about this
06:36PM 21 witness's motivation in doing what she did and why she
06:36PM 22 left the FLDS and so forth, and we're merely closing
06:36PM 23 that loop. That's all we're doing.
06:37PM 24 THE COURT: The Court will allow this
06:37PM 25 testimony in rebuttal. You need to make it 186
06:37PM 1 question-answer, please.
06:37PM 2 MR. NICHOLS: Yes.
06:37PM 3 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) Let me just ask the question
06:37PM 4 directly, Ms. Musser. Can you tell us whether or not
06:37PM 5 the reason why you left the FLDS is because you
06:37PM 6 understood that if you didn't leave, you would be
06:37PM 7 reassigned to Warren Jeffs?
06:37PM 8 A. Yes, sir.
06:37PM 9 MR. NICHOLS: Judge, that's all I have.
06:37PM 10 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
06:37PM 11 BY MR. CALFAS:
06:37PM 12 Q. Your two sisters, Allison Wall and Sherry Wall,
06:37PM 13 were located and did not want to leave the FLDS,
06:37PM 14 correct?
06:37PM 15 A. I cannot answer that.
06:37PM 16 Q. Well, Sheriff David Doran read you affidavits
06:37PM 17 that they prepared asking that you would no longer try
06:37PM 18 to contact them and for you to leave them alone, did he
06:38PM 19 not?
06:38PM 20 A. Yes, sir, he did.
06:38PM 21 Q. And --
06:38PM 22 MR. CALFAS: Nothing further, Your Honor.
06:38PM 23
06:38PM 24 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
06:38PM 25 BY MR. NICHOLS: 187
06:38PM 1 Q. Ms. Musser, do you know whether your sister
06:38PM 2 and -- your sisters and your mother prepared those
06:38PM 3 affidavits?
06:38PM 4 A. No, sir, I do not know that.
06:38PM 5 MR. NICHOLS: That's all I have, Judge.
06:38PM 6 THE COURT: Re-recross?
06:38PM 7 MR. CALFAS: Nothing further, Your Honor.
06:38PM 8 THE COURT: Thank you. May this witness
06:38PM 9 step down?
06:38PM 10 MR. NICHOLS: From the State's perspective,
06:38PM 11 yes, Your Honor.
06:38PM 12 THE COURT: Thank you, ma'am.
13 (Witness Excused.)
14
15
16 March 18, 2010 - Punishment Phase
17
18 REBECCA MUSSER,
19 having been first duly sworn, testified further as
20 follows:
21 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
22 BY MR. NICHOLS:
12:35PM 23 Q. Ms. Musser, I just have a few more areas of
12:35PM 24 questioning I want to ask you about today. You recall
12:35PM 25 that in your prior testimony you identified for the jury 188
12:35PM 1 Ms. Jannetta Barlow?
12:35PM 2 A. Yes.
12:35PM 3 Q. I want to ask you some questions about some
12:35PM 4 other persons, if I might.
12:35PM 5 MR. NICHOLS: May I approach, Your Honor?
12:35PM 6 THE COURT: You may.
12:35PM 7 MR. NICHOLS: Can we put up on the screen,
12:35PM 8 please, State's Exhibit 82.
12:36PM 9 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) Ms. Musser, I'll approach you and
12:36PM 10 hand you what we've -- the original of what we've marked
12:36PM 11 as State's Exhibit 82.
12:36PM 12 Ms. Musser, I believe I may have shown this
12:36PM 13 picture to you earlier when you testified and you may
12:36PM 14 have identified certain persons, but just so the record
12:36PM 15 is clear, could you -- can you identify the persons who
12:36PM 16 are in this photograph?
12:36PM 17 A. Yes.
12:36PM 18 Q. And could you do that for us, please?
12:36PM 19 A. Yes. The gentleman in the top left is Leroy
12:36PM 20 Merril Jessop; and the bottom, the girl to the far left
12:36PM 21 is Heather Wight; and the girl in the middle is Jannetta
12:36PM 22 Barlow, and the girl to the right is Debbie Holm.
12:36PM 23 Q. Now, I don't believe this jury's heard about a
12:37PM 24 Debbie Holm to date. Did you know Debbie Holm when you
12:37PM 25 were still in the FLDS community? 189
12:37PM 1 A. Yes.
12:37PM 2 Q. And who are her parents?
12:37PM 3 A. Her father is Ed Holm, and I can't remember her
12:37PM 4 mother's name right off.
12:37PM 5 Q. And where was she living when you were within
12:37PM 6 the FLDS community?
12:37PM 7 A. She was living in Hildale, Utah.
12:37PM 8 MR. NICHOLS: May I approach, Your Honor?
12:37PM 9 THE COURT: You may.
12:37PM 10 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) Ms. Musser, I'm going to hand you
12:37PM 11 what we've marked and admitted into evidence as State's
12:37PM 12 Exhibit 14-H, and I'm --
12:37PM 13 MR. NICHOLS: Mr. Mau, I think we have a
12:37PM 14 picture of one of these pages.
12:38PM 15 MR. MAU: This is 14-H.
12:38PM 16 MR. NICHOLS: That's okay. I'll just
12:38PM 17 publish it.
12:38PM 18 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) Ms. Musser, I've opened 14-H.
12:38PM 19 Does that appear to be a photo album?
12:38PM 20 A. Yes.
12:38PM 21 Q. And opened up to a page with a photograph of a
12:38PM 22 young woman in a white dress holding a rose with hair
12:38PM 23 wrapped up, white shoes; is that correct?
12:38PM 24 A. Yes.
12:38PM 25 Q. Can you identify this person? 190
12:38PM 1 A. Yes.
12:38PM 2 Q. Who is she?
12:38PM 3 A. This is Sharon Jeffs.
12:38PM 4 Q. And did you know Sharon Jeffs when you were
12:38PM 5 within -- still living within the FLDS community?
12:38PM 6 A. Yes.
12:38PM 7 Q. Do you remember offhand who her parents are?
12:38PM 8 A. Yes. Allen Jeffs is her father. Her mother is
12:38PM 9 Colleen Keate.
12:38PM 10 MR. NICHOLS: Your Honor, may I publish?
12:38PM 11 THE COURT: You may.
12:38PM 12 MR. MAU: There it is.
12:38PM 13 MR. NICHOLS: Oh.
12:38PM 14 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) Is this a -- what we put on the
12:39PM 15 screen, is it a true image of the photograph that I've
12:39PM 16 shown you that's taken from State's Exhibit 14-H?
12:39PM 17 A. Yes.
12:39PM 18 Q. Now, Ms. Musser, there have been a number of
12:39PM 19 discussions about various teachings and doctrines that
12:39PM 20 relate to the law of celestial marriage. And just one
12:39PM 21 additional thing I want to ask you about.
12:39PM 22 In these official teachings concerning the
12:39PM 23 law of celestial marriage, do these official teachings
12:39PM 24 contain any guidance concerning whether these doctrines
12:40PM 25 of celestial marriage, of their relationship to the laws 191
12:40PM 1 of man?
12:40PM 2 A. Yes.
12:40PM 3 Q. And can you describe for the jury what is
12:40PM 4 provided for in these doctrines in terms of what the
12:40PM 5 relationship is between the law -- the celestial law of
12:40PM 6 plural marriage and the laws of man?
12:40PM 7 A. Yes.
12:40PM 8 Q. Please.
12:40PM 9 A. It is taught that the laws of God supercede any
12:40PM 10 laws of the land, any -- any law that a mortal man has
12:40PM 11 enacted. And so when they are in direct opposition,
12:40PM 12 that they are to obey the laws of God more than fear the
12:40PM 13 law of man.
12:40PM 14 Q. And so in the instance of the law -- the
12:40PM 15 celestial law of plural marriage, is that considered to
12:40PM 16 be God's law or man's law?
12:40PM 17 A. God's law.
12:40PM 18 Q. And so to the extent that man's law conflicts
12:41PM 19 with this God's law of the celestial law of plural
12:41PM 20 marriage, what does doctrine provide in terms of which
12:41PM 21 should be followed?
12:41PM 22 A. They will follow God's law, regardless of what
12:41PM 23 the law of the land says.
12:41PM 24 Q. And is what you're telling the jury, is that
12:41PM 25 set out in some of the text that you have described -- 192
12:41PM 1 A. Yes, sir.
12:41PM 2 Q. -- for the jury?
12:41PM 3 A. Yes.
12:41PM 4 Q. Now finally, Ms. Musser, we're now in the -- in
12:41PM 5 the punishment phase of the trial, so I want to ask you
12:41PM 6 a couple of questions about Merril Leroy Jessop. From
12:41PM 7 your time spent within the FLDS community --
12:41PM 8 A. Yes.
12:41PM 9 Q. -- and the contacts that you've maintained
12:41PM 10 since you left the FLDS community, have you yourself
12:41PM 11 formed any opinions concerning whether Merril Leroy
12:41PM 12 Jessop is a person of such a character as to always take
12:41PM 13 care of his family?
12:41PM 14 A. Yes, sir, I have an opinion on that.
12:42PM 15 Q. And what is your opinion?
12:42PM 16 A. I -- inasmuch as women are secondary to the
12:42PM 17 husband, and they are owned and they are to be directed,
12:42PM 18 and there is no approved way for a wife to question her
12:42PM 19 husband, even if she wants to, I do not feel, in my
12:42PM 20 opinion, that a truly loving and nurturing husband and
12:42PM 21 father could --
12:42PM 22 Q. And, Ms. Musser, I don't want to get into
12:42PM 23 specific instances at this point. I asked you as a
12:42PM 24 question in general, do you have an opinion, you said
12:42PM 25 yes. And do you have an opinion concerning the 193
12:42PM 1 character of Merril Leroy Jessop as--
12:42PM 2 A. Yes.
12:42PM 3 Q. -- to whether he is someone who always takes
12:43PM 4 care of his family?
12:43PM 5 A. Yes.
12:43PM 6 Q. And what's your opinion?
12:43PM 7 A. No, he does not.
12:43PM 8 Q. Now, Ms. Musser, I also want to ask you a
12:43PM 9 question, from your time spent within the FLDS community
12:43PM 10 and also the contacts that you've maintained since you
12:43PM 11 left, do you have an opinion as to the reputation of
12:43PM 12 Merril Leroy Jessop with respect to this issue of
12:43PM 13 whether he is of such a character as to always take care
12:43PM 14 of his family?
12:43PM 15 MR. HURLEY: That's asked and answered.
12:43PM 16 THE COURT: Answer the question.
12:43PM 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have an opinion on
12:43PM 18 that.
12:43PM 19 Q. (MR. NICHOLS) And without getting into specific
12:43PM 20 instances, can you tell us, what is your opinion as to
12:43PM 21 the reputation of Merril Leroy Jessop as being a person
12:43PM 22 who of -- is of character to always take care of his --
12:43PM 23 his family.
12:43PM 24 A. Again, wherein -- to use the term always, no, I
12:44PM 25 do not feel like that he does. 194
12:44PM 1 MR. NICHOLS: Okay. Your Honor, I'll pass
12:44PM 2 the witness.
12:44PM 3 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
12:44PM 4 BY MR. HURLEY:
12:44PM 5 Q. Ms. Musser, you were asked, when you testified
12:44PM 6 previously, if you've received any benefits at all from
12:44PM 7 the Diversity Foundation, financial or otherwise. Do
12:44PM 8 you recall that you were asked that question?
12:44PM 9 A. Yes, sir.
12:44PM 10 Q. And -- and you gave a very specific answer, did
12:44PM 11 you not?
12:44PM 12 A. I said no.
12:44PM 13 Q. Okay. Is that still your answer?
12:44PM 14 A. That is my answer.
12:44PM 15 THE COURT: Mr. Hurley, could you turn your
12:44PM 16 microphone on.
12:44PM 17 Q. (MR. HURLEY) You were asked questions about
12:44PM 18 your knowledge of FLDS. You also have some knowledge of
12:44PM 19 LDS, do you not?
12:44PM 20 A. Basic knowledge of LDS, yes.
12:45PM 21 Q. Well, the FLDS was a church that splintered off
12:45PM 22 from LDS in 1890, was it not?
12:45PM 23 A. Yes, sir.
12:45PM 24 Q. And the founder of the church, Joseph Smith, is
12:45PM 25 the founder of both churches. Right? 195
12:45PM 1 A. They acknowledge him as the founder of the FLDS
12:45PM 2 Church, yes.
12:45PM 3 Q. And Joseph Smith had a number of wives, did he
12:45PM 4 not?
12:45PM 5 A. Yes, sir.
12:45PM 6 Q. And many of them were young, fifteen or
12:45PM 7 younger?
12:45PM 8 A. I do not know that early church history. I do
12:45PM 9 know he had very many young wives. To put an actual age
12:45PM 10 and name to his wives, I could not do that off the top
12:45PM 11 of my head.
12:45PM 12 Q. Brigham Young, one of the other leaders of the
12:45PM 13 FLDS Church prior to the split, also had many wives, did
12:46PM 14 he not?
12:46PM 15 A. Yes, sir, he did.
12:46PM 16 Q. And many young wives?
12:46PM 17 A. Again, I'm not familiar so much with Brigham
12:46PM 18 Young's -- age of his wives.
12:46PM 19 Q. That was based on the Doctrine of Covenants
12:46PM 20 that is a part of both religions, is it not?
12:46PM 21 A. Again, I cannot speak for the LDS Church and
12:46PM 22 how they acknowledge the Book of Mormon. And -- I can
12:46PM 23 assume, but I cannot speak for fact of how they
12:46PM 24 acknowledge that in their faith.
12:46PM 25 Q. Well, because of your knowledge of FLDS and 196
12:46PM 1 your expertise about that, you know that the event in
12:46PM 2 1890 that led to the split was Utah becoming a state,
12:46PM 3 don't you?
12:46PM 4 A. I know the event that you're speaking of was
12:46PM 5 when they signed the manifesto, basically the LDS Church
12:46PM 6 saying they would no longer practice polygamy. That is
12:47PM 7 the event that I'm speaking of.
12:47PM 8 Q. And by signing that manifesto, they were
12:47PM 9 admitted to the United States as a state?
12:47PM 10 A. However, that is not the criteria by which Utah
12:47PM 11 became a state.
12:47PM 12 Q. Would you agree that it was a pretty important
12:47PM 13 factor?
12:47PM 14 A. I was not alive, I do not.
12:47PM 15 Q. Now, in spite of that manifesto, many, many in
12:47PM 16 the LDS faith were already involved in polygamous
12:47PM 17 relationships, weren't they?
12:47PM 18 A. From the history that I understand, I am aware
12:47PM 19 that there were some that were.
12:47PM 20 Q. And there are many who continue in the
12:47PM 21 polygamous relationships, even though they were members
12:47PM 22 of the FLDS -- excuse me, the LDS church after 1890?
12:47PM 23 A. I believe so. But again, I -- I couldn't name
12:48PM 24 you names. I'm aware of some stories.
12:48PM 25 Q. Now, you told us previously about things that 197
12:48PM 1 can occur where a person can be asked to leave the FLDS
12:48PM 2 Church; is that right?
12:48PM 3 A. There are instances that happens, yes.
12:48PM 4 Q. It's very important in the FLDS to -- any
12:48PM 5 physical abuse would cause an oust, would it not?
12:48PM 6 A. No, sir, not any. There are instances where
12:48PM 7 people have been handled for that, but to say every case
12:48PM 8 is handled or not, no.
12:48PM 9 Q. Well, if -- if a person, like you described to
12:48PM 10 the jury earlier, made a -- an advance, an unwanted
12:49PM 11 advance to a female member of FLDS, and they were not
12:49PM 12 married, that could cause sanctions, could it not?
12:49PM 13 A. I'm not sure what you mean by advance.
12:49PM 14 Q. Well, you described for the jury a man flirting
12:49PM 15 with you, making implied sexual advances. Do you
12:49PM 16 remember that?
12:49PM 17 A. So, I understand what you're saying now. So
12:49PM 18 what is your question?
12:49PM 19 Q. That's a way to get expelled?
12:49PM 20 A. What is done with that situation, in any
12:49PM 21 situation, is decided by those who are in authority.
12:49PM 22 Q. Right.
12:49PM 23 A. To say that there's one absolute punishment
12:49PM 24 that's the same for each, I could not say that.
12:49PM 25 Q. Now, when you reported this incident, did you 198
12:50PM 1 report it to Rulon or did you report it to someone else?
12:50PM 2 A. I reported it to Nephi and Warren.
12:50PM 3 Q. And did you report it to them in writing or
12:50PM 4 just orally?
12:50PM 5 A. Orally.
12:50PM 6 Q. Female members of the FLDS church can
12:50PM 7 communicate with people in power orally, can't they?
12:50PM 8 A. My situation was different --
12:50PM 9 Q. Let me ask the question again. Listen real
12:50PM 10 carefully. People in the FLDS church, females, can
12:50PM 11 communicate orally with people in power like Warren
12:50PM 12 Jeffs or Levi Jeffs?
12:50PM 13 A. I'm not sure who you're talking about, Levi
12:50PM 14 Jeffs.
12:50PM 15 Q. I thought that's who you said.
12:50PM 16 A. No, I said Nephi.
12:50PM 17 Q. Nephi Jeffs. I'm sorry. I'm not real good at
12:50PM 18 hearing.
12:50PM 19 A. That is not entirely correct.
12:51PM 20 Q. But it's partially correct?
12:51PM 21 A. Circumstantially.
12:51PM 22 Q. Females communicate with the leaders of the
12:51PM 23 church about matters such as families that they get
12:51PM 24 along with and they enjoy, don't they?
12:51PM 25 A. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. 199
12:51PM 1 Q. Well, if a female desired to be placed in a
12:51PM 2 certain family, they might discuss it orally with the
12:51PM 3 prophet?
12:51PM 4 A. Not necessarily. You are to submit yourself to
12:51PM 5 be directed.
12:51PM 6 Q. Okay. But you can discuss your desires about
12:51PM 7 getting along with a certain family, and that's been
12:51PM 8 done, hasn't it?
12:51PM 9 A. Again, that is circumstantial and that is not
12:51PM 10 something that is -- is smiled upon commonly.
12:52PM 11 Q. But it's done?
12:52PM 12 A. It is not done across the board, and it is
12:52PM 13 very --
12:52PM 14 Q. By not being done across the board, it's done
12:52PM 15 on occasion. Right?
12:52PM 16 A. Rarely.
12:52PM 17 Q. Now, you have seen Leroy around his young
12:52PM 18 children, haven't you?
12:52PM 19 A. Yes, sir, I have.
12:52PM 20 Q. And he's a very good father to his young
12:52PM 21 children, isn't he?
12:52PM 22 A. I cannot speak for that.
12:52PM 23 Q. Okay. Heather had four sets of twins, didn't
12:52PM 24 she?
12:52PM 25 A. I don't recall right off. I know she had at 200
12:52PM 1 least one set.
12:52PM 2 Q. Do -- did you see Leroy interacting with any of
12:52PM 3 those children?
12:52PM 4 A. Yes, sir, I did.
12:52PM 5 Q. Okay. And they got along very well, didn't
12:53PM 6 they?
12:53PM 7 A. From what I saw, the little bit that I saw, it
12:53PM 8 was pleasant.
12:53PM 9 Q. The -- Heather, Sharon -- excuse me. Heather,
12:53PM 10 Jannetta and Debbie always showed great affection
12:53PM 11 towards Leroy, didn't they?
12:53PM 12 A. Not necessarily.
12:53PM 13 Q. You left -- and let me make sure I'm correct
12:53PM 14 about this. Did you leave the Short Creek area in 2002?
12:53PM 15 A. Yes, sir.
12:53PM 16 Q. Did you move to a different area at that time?
12:53PM 17 A. Yes.
12:53PM 18 Q. And you didn't come back to visit often at
12:53PM 19 Short Creek, did you?
12:54PM 20 A. No.
12:54PM 21 Q. So you didn't observe Leroy, say, from 2002 to
12:54PM 22 2005 at Short Creek?
12:54PM 23 A. No, sir.
12:54PM 24 Q. Have you observed him from 2005 to 2008 at YFZ?
12:54PM 25 A. No. 201
12:54PM 1 Q. The LDS church also requires that the male, the
12:54PM 2 husband, be the head of the family; isn't that true?
12:54PM 3 A. I have never been in the LDS church.
12:54PM 4 Q. Well, you know about it.
12:54PM 5 A. I can't speak for how they interpret their
12:54PM 6 doctrine.
12:54PM 7 Q. Well, you've seen it and you have knowledge of
12:54PM 8 it, don't you?
12:54PM 9 A. I have knowledge of the Book of Mormon which
12:54PM 10 they study; however, my knowledge was taught to me from
12:55PM 11 the authorities of the FLDS. I cannot say that the
12:55PM 12 authorities of the LDS church interpret it the same.
12:55PM 13 Q. The women in the Mormon or LDS church are also
12:55PM 14 taught to be very submissive to the priesthood head?
12:55PM 15 A. I cannot agree to that. I do not know.
12:55PM 16 Q. Okay. Well, it's in the Book of Mormon like
12:55PM 17 that.
12:55PM 18 A. I -- again, the way I answer that is my
12:55PM 19 knowledge. I know the scripture, but the interpretation
12:55PM 20 that I am familiar with and that has -- I've listened to
12:55PM 21 for thousands of times is an interpretation from the
12:55PM 22 authorities of the FLDS church, not the LDS church. I
12:55PM 23 don't know how they interpret that, sir.
12:55PM 24 Q. It's from the Book of Mormon.
12:55PM 25 A. However -- 202
12:55PM 1 Q. Is it from the Book of Mormon, Ms. Musser?
12:56PM 2 A. There are principles --
12:56PM 3 Q. Ms. Musser --
12:56PM 4 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Please don't talk
12:56PM 5 over each other, either one of you.
12:56PM 6 MR. HURLEY: Okay.
12:56PM 7 THE COURT: Ask your question and allow the
12:56PM 8 witness to answer the question.
12:56PM 9 Q. (MR. HURLEY) What they're trained in the FLDS
12:56PM 10 is from the Book of Mormon, is it not?
12:56PM 11 A. With an interpretation filtered through the
12:56PM 12 authorities of the FLDS.
12:56PM 13 Q. Same with the LDS?
12:56PM 14 A. I cannot agree to that. I would like to say
12:56PM 15 that one thing I do know is life in the FLDS, at least
12:56PM 16 in the many -- it looks very much different than an LDS
12:56PM 17 family, and so I cannot say that they're taught the
12:56PM 18 exact same.
12:56PM 19 Q. Their religion is based on the same books, the
12:56PM 20 Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl
12:57PM 21 of Great Price, isn't it?
12:57PM 22 A. Yes.
12:57PM 23 MR. HURLEY: I'll pass the witness.
12:57PM 24 MR. NICHOLS: No further questions. May
12:57PM 25 the witness be excused, Your Honor? 203
12:57PM 1 THE COURT: The witness may step down.
2 (Witness Excused).
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25 204
1 THE STATE OF TEXAS )
2 COUNTY OF SCHLEICHER )
3 I, Debbie Harris, Official Court Reporter
4 in and for the 51st Judicial District of Schleicher
5 County, State of Texas, do hereby certify that the above
6 and foregoing contains a true and correct transcription
7 of the excerpt of proceedings requested to be included
8 in this volume of the Reporter's Record, in the above
9 styled and numbered cause, all of which occurred in open
10 court or in chambers and were reported by me.
11 I further certify that this Reporter's Record
12 of the proceedings DOES NOT truly and correctly reflect
13 the exhibits, if any, admitted by the respective
14 parties.
15 I further certify that the total cost of the
16 preparation of this Reporter's Record is $______and
17 was paid for by ______.
18 WITNESS MY OFFICIAL HAND this the _____ day of
19 ______, 2010.
20
21 ______
22 Debbie Harris, Texas CSR# 3879 Expires December 31, 2010 23 Official Court Reporter 112 W. Beauregard 24 San Angelo, Texas 76903 (325) 659-6574 25