1 BEFORE THE NEW YORK STATE SENATE MAJORITY COALITION JOINT TASK FORCE ON HEROIN AND OPIOID ADDICTION 2 ------
3 PUBLIC FORUM: SUFFOLK COUNTY
4 PANEL DISCUSSION ON LONG ISLAND'S HEROIN EPIDEMIC
5 ------
6 Suffolk County Community College 7 Brentwood Campus Van Nostrand Theater 8 1001 Crooked Hill Road Brentwood, New York 11717 9 April 8, 2014 10 10:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m.
11 PRESENT: 12 Senator Philip M. Boyle, Task Force Chairman 13 Chairman of the Senate Committee on Alcoholism and Drug Abuse. 14
15 Senator Jack Martins, Forum Moderator
16 Senator John J. Flanagan 17 Senator Kemp Hannon 18 Senator Carl L. Marcellino 19
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2 1 LIFE-STORY SPEAKERS, POST-PANELIST INTRODUCTION:
2 Shanna (no last name given) Previous user of illegal drugs 3 Arthur & Denise Murr 4 Parent of child who had fatal overdose Garden City - Compassionate Friends 5 Jason (no last name given) 6 Previous user of illegal drugs
7
8 ---oOo---
9 PARTICIPATING PANELISTS: 10 Kathy Brown 11 Director of Chemical Dependence, Catholic Charities
12 Richard Buckman President, Long Island Recovery Association 13 Dr. Paul Casciano 14 Superintendent of Schools William Floyd School District 15 Vincent DeMarco 16 Sheriff, Suffolk County
17 Dr. James Dolan Director of Mental Health, Chemical Dependency 18 and Developmental Disability Services for Nassau County
19 Dr. Frank Dowling Psychiatrist, Stony Brook University 20 Robert Ewald 21 Chief, Narcotics Bureau Suffolk County District Attorney's Office 22 Rene Feitcher 23 Assistant District Attorney Nassau County District Attorney's Office 24 Chair, NC Heroin Task Force
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3 1 PARTICIPATING PANELISTS (Continued): 2 Kym Laube 3 Executive Director, HUGS President, Quality Consortium of Suffolk County 4 Steve Margolies 5 Vice President and Medical Director New York Region of Phoenix House 6 Arthur & Denise Murr 7 Parent of child who had fatal overdose Garden City - Compassionate Friends 8 Judith Raimondi 9 President & Founder, Lindy Cares
10 Dr. Jeffrey Reynolds Executive Director, LICADD 11 Dr. Michael F. Ring 12 Superintendent of Schools, Rocky Point School District
13 Anthony Rizzuto Provider Relations Representative for 14 Nassau & Suffolk at Seafield Center
15 John M. Venza Vice President, Adolescent Services 16 Outreach Development Corporation
17 Christopher R. Wilkins MHA Founder & President, Emeritus Loyola Recovery 18 Foundation, and, Consultant to Alkermes
19 Tom Willdigg President, Nassau County Detectives Association 20
21 ---oOo---
22 QUESTIONS & ANSWERS, AND STATEMENTS:
23 MORNING PORTION PAGE 98
24 AFTERNOON PORTION PAGE 175
25 ---oOo---
4 1 "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the
2 United States of America and to the republic for
3 which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible,
4 with liberty and justice for all.
5 SHANNA [ph.]: Hi, I'm Shanna [ph.], and this
6 is my story.
7 I'm 26 years old and come from a great
8 family. My parents are happily married, and I have
9 three sisters. I grew up with tons of love and no
10 trauma.
11 I always like to say that in my story because
12 this disease does not discriminate.
13 I struggled in school because of having ADHD.
14 My mom did not want to put me on medication, but
15 I quickly self-medicated. I was drinking, and
16 smoking marijuana, almost every day on the weekends.
17 I didn't see a problem with it. It was just weed
18 and alcohol.
19 I dropped out of high school in
20 eleventh grade and went to beauty school.
21 I continued to drink and smoke, and I didn't see a
22 problem with it.
23 People would tell me that I drank too much.
24 Every time I drank, it was to black out or
25 pass out, but, I still didn't see a problem.
5 1 I met a boyfriend at 18. He was using
2 pain killers. I tried them and it was love at first
3 try. I quickly became addicted. My body needed it
4 and I couldn't live without it. I was addicted from
5 that first time.
6 I ran out of money quickly, and he turned me
7 on to heroin because it was cheaper and easier to
8 get.
9 My parents came to me and told me I needed to
10 go away and get help.
11 That was my first experience with the detox.
12 The detox, they told me that I was able to go
13 to inpatient, but only for two weeks, because that's
14 all my insurance would cover. It just wasn't
15 enough. I got out and I started using right away.
16 I met another guy, going to the rooms of
17 Narcotics Anonymous, and at that point, I thought
18 that maybe I wanted to change, and maybe I wanted to
19 do the right thing, but, a part of me just still
20 didn't have enough treatment in me, didn't have
21 enough time away from the drug. And, he started
22 using, and, quickly, I just followed down that same
23 path again.
24 He was an IV user, and I quickly realized how
25 much more high you can get if you injected it
6 1 instead of sniffing it; and that's what happened.
2 My parents, you know, begged me to stop, and
3 begged me to get into treatment.
4 And a couple of times I said yes, and I would
5 go, but, my insurance would run out, and I'd have to
6 leave. Or, they've told me that I couldn't get in,
7 'cause I had to go to outpatient and fail first.
8 And, definitely, outpatient at that point was
9 not an option for me. I needed help. I needed to
10 be away, and I needed to be away for a long time.
11 I would just continue to go back out and
12 I continued to use, and, eventually, the money ran
13 out. My parents couldn't have me live in the house
14 anymore.
15 Like I said, I have three sisters that I was
16 destroying. They would watch me walk around like a
17 zombie.
18 And, I went and stayed in my car, with my
19 boyfriend. And, we didn't have anymore money, so we
20 decided to rob someone.
21 This is not something that I would ever have
22 done if I wasn't addicted to heroin and so sick,
23 that I just didn't know how else to get what
24 I needed.
25 I had gotten arrested. That was on
7 1 October 4, 2010. And, I was sent to Nassau County
2 Jail.
3 I was arraigned for $120,000, and now I was
4 sitting in a jail cell, and didn't know how my life
5 had gotten to where it was, and how I was ever gonna
6 come out of where I was.
7 On October 5, 2010, I got called down in
8 Nassau County Jail, and I was told that my boyfriend
9 had committed suicide.
10 He had been struggling for 10 years with
11 heroin. He's tried to get clean, and he just
12 couldn't do it. He had tried to get into treatment
13 a couple of times, and he was denied treatment.
14 And, we ended up in that cell, and he was
15 withdrawing, and I guess he found no better way than
16 to just end it.
17 So now I was sitting in jail, with $120,000
18 bail. My boyfriend was now dead, and I just --
19 I didn't know what to do.
20 And my dad came, and my grandfather bailed me
21 out of jail.
22 I still got out of jail and could not get
23 into treatment. The judge saw it as two separate
24 issues: a robbery, and a drug addict.
25 That, they didn't see the reason that I did
8 1 the robbery was because I was addicted to drugs.
2 They completely separated it.
3 And, I had to pay a lot of money to get into
4 treatment. I went to a 28-day program, and I got
5 out.
6 And in that 28-day program, something clicked
7 to me, you know, I really needed to change my life
8 because, if I didn't, I was gonna die.
9 And, I got out, and for a week I was using.
10 And while I was in treatment, my the little
11 sister, she was 12 years old, she wrote me a letter:
12 I just want my sister back. Like, please.
13 And, uhm -- she -- when I got out, that kept
14 playing in my head, over and over again.
15 And at that point I said: I need to go away,
16 and I need to go away for a long time. I really
17 need to change.
18 And I went to my dad and I told him: I'm
19 ready to go, and I need to go, and I need to be away
20 for a very long time.
21 And, I went to Daytop for nine months, and
22 that's when my journey started.
23 I just really -- I was willing to do anything
24 I had to, to live. I didn't want to die.
25 And I did. I got enrolled in school. I went
9 1 to a sober house out east. And, my life has been
2 just completely different since that day.
3 Now I'm in Suffolk Community College, going
4 to get my CASAC, to be able to help other people,
5 you know, that were struggling once like I was.
6 And, I have a beautiful 4-month-old little
7 girl, and, it terrifies me that she'll have to go
8 down the same path that I did.
9 But I know she doesn't have to, as long as
10 I can remain a power of example to her, and, you
11 know, just do what I have to do to make sure that,
12 you know, she doesn't have to try these drugs, and
13 she doesn't have -- but, if there's not a change in
14 being able to get into treatment, then, you know,
15 like, what if she does need help and she can't get
16 it?
17 That's what my biggest concern is, and I just
18 hope everything changes, and, you know, we can
19 change something.
20 That's it.
21 Thank you.
22 [Applause.]
23 ARTHUR MURR: Hi, my name's Art Murr. This
24 is my wife, Denise.
25 We really want to thank Senator Boyle and
10 1 everybody for putting this together for us.
2 We lost our son, Matt, 25 -- he was 25. We
3 lost him on February the 3rd, 2011, after a
4 7-year battle with addiction.
5 He was our only child, but, in reality, they
6 were like -- there were two of him: There was Matt,
7 clean and sober. There was Matt, when he wasn't.
8 He was -- when he was clean and sober, he was
9 confident, he was fun-loving, he was sensitive, he
10 was gregarious. He had this laugh that everybody
11 would just, like, draw themselves towards.
12 DENISE MURR: We could talk about anything.
13 The three of us had a strong bond that never
14 wavered.
15 A rehab counselor told us, when Matt read the
16 part of his bio about his family life before drugs,
17 people actually cried because it sounded like such a
18 happy life.
19 ARTHUR MURR: Matt on drugs, however, was a
20 completely different person. He was depressed, he
21 had low self-esteem, he hated himself. He was
22 disappointed with the world. He was withdrawn.
23 And, just adjectives I don't even want to think
24 about.
25 He was always very sensitive.
11 1 9/11 was a big thing for him. He just never
2 understood what happened there. It was horrifying
3 to him.
4 But at moments of reflection, he'd start
5 crying hysterically to us. He knew what he was
6 doing was wrong: what he was doing to himself, what
7 he was doing to us, what he was doing to his
8 friends.
9 He knew it was wrong, but the drugs would
10 negate anything that was, like, rational thought or
11 behavior.
12 He said he was ashamed, he was embarrassed.
13 He didn't want us to tell anyone.
14 We didn't.
15 Basically, shame and stigma won in that
16 situation.
17 Matt was diagnosed with ADD in the
18 middle school. Medication was suggested. We said
19 no. Drugs weren't just -- well, they weren't part
20 of our lives.
21 But when he turned 15, we real- -- we had
22 to -- we decided that medication was really
23 necessary.
24 He was very frustrated in school, but he was
25 very against medication.
12 1 He said we in the school taught him that
2 drugs was not the answer.
3 DENISE MURR: We finally felt that Matt
4 agreed, but had a battle many times with him taking
5 the Adderall. He would put it in his mouth, and
6 spit it out if I turned away.
7 Many times I found the pill left somewhere in
8 the house.
9 In Matt's case, Adderall was the first drug
10 that he later abused.
11 ARTHUR MURR: He lasted one semester in
12 college. He failed, came home -- we brought him
13 home, and told us he was using drugs.
14 Since that time, we visited Matt in rehabs
15 for seven years, and when he lived in a homeless
16 shelter. He was down in Florida, and he lived in a
17 homeless shelter.
18 He said every time he went to a new rehab, he
19 would learn about a new drug, and then he would try
20 it. Mushrooms, cocaine, LSD, opiates, pills,
21 heroin, methadone, ectasy; he couldn't stop himself,
22 but he desperately wanted to.
23 He failed one rehab, he'd check himself into
24 another to get clean.
25 Addiction's not a choice here.
13 1 Addiction's a disease, and he had it.
2 DENISE MURR: We found out about Matt
3 injecting heroin during one of our family sessions
4 with his psychiatrist. I was horrified, and said in
5 disbelief: Needles? But you pass out when you have
6 a blood test.
7 He stood up and he said: That's how much
8 I hate myself.
9 ARTHUR MURR: We do believe that Narcan saved
10 his life during an overdose just after his
11 25th birthday, but we just don't know for sure.
12 The rehab wouldn't talk to us. They said it
13 was privacy laws. It didn't matter that he was
14 gone.
15 Matt died alone in a Brooklyn SRO hotel. The
16 police found him, and called Denise.
17 She called me at work so we could get to the
18 morgue and identify someone else; not Matt.
19 Now we visit Matt at the cemetery. We
20 believe he's not really there, but finally at peace,
21 and someday we'll all be together again.
22 It's just amazing what you can talk yourself
23 into.
24 We printed a poem Matt wrote about addiction
25 on the church funeral pamphlet, and told the priest
14 1 to talk about addiction at his funeral mass.
2 He did; that started it. We wanted to get it
3 out in the open. We want to stop the shame, we want
4 to stop the stigma.
5 DENISE MURR: Our story is not unique. We
6 know many friends with similar stories. Some are
7 here today.
8 We need to end the shame and stigma. We need
9 awareness, compassion for these people that are
10 sick, and change.
11 ARTHUR MURR: Thank you very much.
12 DENISE MURR: Thank you.
13 [Applause.]
14 JASON: Hi, my name is Jason.
15 My story is very similar to Matt's, similar
16 to Shanna's, similar to a lot of my friends.
17 I grew up with -- my father passed away when
18 I was young; I was about 5 years old. And, I grew
19 up with a mom who loved me more than anything, and
20 gave me everything I ever needed. Right?
21 And, I grew up feeling, the best way to
22 describe it is, like there was like a pebble in my
23 shoe. And I always felt like that pebble was in my
24 shoe, and I could never get it out. Right?
25 When I was young, I played sports. That was
15 1 the only time I really felt good.
2 I played sports, skated. I -- you know, when
3 I was with my friends, playing, you know, I felt
4 good.
5 But not until I started drinking and smoking,
6 I didn't feel that release of taking that pebble out
7 of my shoe. That's when I felt that.
8 So I continued to look for that feeling.
9 And I made friends, who were good kids, who
10 felt the same way and wanted to get their pebble out
11 of their shoe. Right?
12 Growing up, I, uhm, started progressing into
13 more drugs, just like everybody else.
14 And when I was about 17, just turning 18, it
15 was about a week before my birthday, my best friend
16 overdosed and passed away.
17 And he was IV'ing -- using heroin, shooting
18 heroin. And that was the first time I had tried it.
19 I was so depressed, and I didn't care, and it
20 was available to me, and I just didn't care about
21 myself, and I put my arm out and I had someone just
22 boot it right into me.
23 And, I didn't stop doing that because I felt
24 what I was looking for. That's basically what I was
25 looking for. I didn't feel right without it, and
16 1 I did with it.
2 And six months later, I had -- same like
3 Shanna, I had a girlfriend overdose and pass away,
4 too.
5 And I felt that I was haunted and that I was
6 different than everybody else, and I was meant to
7 die with a needle in my arm.
8 That's how I lived: like I was going to die
9 with a needle in my arm.
10 And I did that for 5 years -- 4 1/2 to
11 5 years, and in that time I was homeless.
12 I went to numerous psych wards, numerous
13 rehabs; about eight altogether. I can't count the
14 detoxes, jail.
15 I had been everywhere, and I was in a vicious
16 cycle.
17 And, uhm, January 27, 2012, I woke up in a
18 psych ward, and I didn't know where I was, what
19 happened, what I did.
20 Fortunately, I didn't kill anybody, and
21 I didn't do anything that changed my life forever.
22 I could have, though, and I was -- because
23 I was doing things like I was gonna die in a week.
24 That's how I was living my life.
25 And I got -- had a chance to get sober.
17 1 Right?
2 I was put in a psych ward and they held me
3 there until a rehab bed opened up, and I had a
4 chance to get sober.
5 For another time -- it took me a long time;
6 it took me a long time to get sober. I didn't get
7 it my first shot, and I had this chance.
8 And like Shanna said, I didn't want to die,
9 for once. I wanted to live.
10 So I went on that.
11 And I thought I -- I thought I -- I didn't
12 think I would be living the life I had now.
13 If you would have asked me when I got sober,
14 I would have short-changed myself.
15 I just didn't want to -- I couldn't live with
16 drugs and I couldn't live without them, and I didn't
17 want to feel the way I felt anymore.
18 And there were only a couple ways out:
19 One was suicide; one was to use drugs for the
20 rest of my life. And the other one was to get
21 sober.
22 And I didn't understand what being sober was,
23 and I didn't like how it felt. I couldn't handle
24 it.
25 And, I struggled for a long time, I fought,
18 1 and I stayed sober, and things got better and life
2 got good.
3 I got my trust of my mother back.
4 I couldn't see where my mother lived for the
5 first eight months of her life. I couldn't see my
6 nephew for the first six months of his life.
7 For the first eight months of her life -- for
8 eight months, she had a new home. I couldn't see
9 where it was, for eight months into sobriety.
10 And for the first six months of my nephew's
11 life, I couldn't see him.
12 And, I got those things back, the intangible
13 things, the things that I really wanted. You know,
14 those good feelings, that happiness that I had when
15 I was younger.
16 And I didn't think I could attain that.
17 And I got that back.
18 And I watch -- it said, because I watched
19 people die all the time. I'm on the firing line,
20 I'm on the front line, and I deal with people.
21 I work in the field, I'm interning in the
22 field right now, and I'm a strong member in 12-step,
23 and I watch people die all the time.
24 My friend -- one of my friends died last
25 month, Nick. He was a great kid. And, he passed
19 1 away just like so many of my friends.
2 I think I've been nearing 100 wakes right
3 now, I would say, in my lifetime.
4 So, this is an epidemic.
5 My brothers are dying.
6 And, I have to -- it's terrible, because
7 I have to tell somebody: There's no bed in rehab,
8 your insurance doesn't cover you.
9 And, you know, they're throwing up in my
10 garbage pail. And then I have to go to a wake the
11 next night.
12 So, I think that's a problem, and I think
13 there needs to be something done.
14 I don't have that power, but I have as much
15 power -- as much power as I can, I'm giving right
16 now. Try to put a voice to it, try to put a face to
17 it.
18 You know, I'm a recovering heroin addict.
19 I've been arrested by the heroin task force
20 before, so it's kind of funny I'm here speaking in
21 front of it. So --
22 [Applause.]
23 JASON: But, uhm, I'm here, and I just want
24 to say that, we do get sober, and we live amazing
25 lives, and, we're useful to people.
20 1 So, thank you.
2 Thank you very much.
3 [Applause.]
4 SENATOR BOYLE: I'd like to thank Shanna,
5 Mr. and Mrs. Murr, and Jason, for sharing your
6 stories.
7 You can find your seats.
8 Thank you very much.
9 [Applause.]
10 SENATOR BOYLE: And this is a perfect example
11 of people who are taking their personal stories and
12 tragedies and turning it around to help others in
13 the same situation.
14 Obviously, Mr. and Mrs. Murr are advocates,
15 and have been for years.
16 And, I met Shanna and Jason in the
17 Suffolk Community College chemical-dependency
18 counseling class I was speaking to last week.
19 And, so, their -- no one knows the story
20 better than they are, and how to help people who
21 need treatment.
22 I want to thank everyone for coming here
23 today.
24 I'm Senator Phil Boyle. I'm the Chairman of
25 the Senate Heroin and Opiate Addiction Task Force.
21 1 This is the first of 12 forums we're holding
2 around the state. And, Long Island is a very
3 important place to start it, because this is really
4 one of the epicenters of the heroin epidemic.
5 We see it on the news outlets, the
6 Long Island Expressway being the heroin highway.
7 Dealers coming out from the city and giving this --
8 selling this poison to our children.
9 We need to stop that, and that's why we're
10 here today: to get input from an extremely
11 distinguished panel.
12 We have some of the top prevention,
13 treatment, and law-enforcement officials here on
14 Long Island, in both Nassau and Suffolk county.
15 We're gonna have a forum, a roundtable
16 discussion, and also input from the audience later
17 on in the show -- in the event, with different
18 questions, to get the best kind of answers we need.
19 We're gonna look at legislation.
20 Our task is to -- our mission, is to offer a
21 report by June 1st.
22 Now, our legislative session this year is
23 gonna go to probably the third week in June, so,
24 we're gonna have a few weeks to pass legislation,
25 based on what will be coming out of this report.
22 1 We're going to hear about some legislation
2 that's probably already been introduced, and some,
3 hopefully, new legislation, thinking outside the
4 box, on the way to fight this heroin epidemic.
5 And it's not just Long Island. It's
6 statewide.
7 I would like to, first, thank
8 Suffolk Community College for hosting this forum.
9 As always, they do a tremendous job and, the place
10 looks great.
11 I'd like to thank all of the participants.
12 And, also, thank my staff -- Chris, Krista,
13 Stevie, everyone -- you did a great job, and, thank
14 you very much for setting this up.
15 Thank you.
16 [Applause.]
17 SENATOR BOYLE: I'd also like to thank our
18 elected official today.
19 We are joined by Suffolk County Sheriff
20 Vincent DeMarco.
21 Sheriff DeMarco, thank you very much.
22 [Applause.]
23 SENATOR BOYLE: And we have
24 Legislator John Kennedy, of the Suffolk County --
25 the Republican leader of the Suffolk County
23 1 Legislature.
2 Thank you, John.
3 [Applause.]
4 SENATOR BOYLE: Importantly, as we, members
5 of the task force, look at the heroin epidemic, we
6 have to focus on three things, in my opinion:
7 We have to focus on prevention, to stop our
8 kids from ever trying heroin and other opiates;
9 Treatment for those people who are addicted,
10 and the stories we heard about, multiple times,
11 trying to get treatment and get help, and not being
12 able to get in.
13 I think one of the things we'll talk about
14 is, perhaps, Senator Hannon's bill on insurance
15 coverage during the course of the day.
16 And also, of course, criminal penalties:
17 increasing the penalties.
18 We're not going back to the Rockefeller drug
19 laws, but we need to increase the penalties on
20 heroin and opiate dealers that we're looking at
21 right now.
22 'Cause I can tell you, there was a recent
23 story in the paper in our area: One dealer was
24 caught with 864 bags of heroin, but it's not a
25 felony.
24 1 Don't ask me how that is the case, but we
2 need to change the laws and we need to make it
3 tougher so these drug dealers cannot harm our
4 children and our families.
5 Even -- I was recently -- I don't know if you
6 saw the press conference last week about a major
7 drug -- heroin bust in Holtsville?
8 I was with District Attorney Spota on that.
9 And even Tom Spota, a great prosecutor, and
10 the top law enforcement -- top prosecutor in
11 Suffolk County, obviously, he said: We cannot
12 arrest our way out of this epidemic.
13 It's true.
14 We need to focus on prevention and treatment,
15 as well as law enforcement.
16 I'd like to introduce the other members of
17 our task force.
18 My colleague Senator John Flanagan.
19 John, thank you for coming.
20 [Applause.]
21 SENATOR BOYLE: Also,
22 Senator Carl Marcellino.
23 Carl, thank you for coming.
24 [Applause.]
25 SENATOR BOYLE: And the Chair of the Senate
25 1 Health Committee, Senator Kemp Hannon.
2 Thank you very much, Kemp.
3 [Applause.]
4 SENATOR BOYLE: And our moderator today, a
5 leader in the Senate, and a leader fighting this
6 heroin epidemic in the Long Island community, is my
7 colleague from Nassau County, I turn it over to,
8 Senator Jack Martins.
9 Thank you, Jack.
10 [Applause.]
11 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you.
12 Good morning, everyone.
13 (The audience says, "Good morning.")
14 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you for joining us
15 today on this incredibly important topic.
16 You know, I've relayed this story before.
17 Just a couple years ago, I had an opportunity
18 to be in one of the communities that I represent, a
19 suburban community on the north shore of Long Island
20 in Nassau County, and we talked about opioid abuse
21 and heroin abuse.
22 And I was told, point blank, by this parent
23 group, that: That doesn't happen in my community.
24 You know, our kids have a problem with alcohol,
25 maybe a little bit of marijuana. But, you know,
26 1 opioids and heroin is not an issue in our suburban
2 community.
3 And I think, if you heard a topic and a theme
4 in our discussion thus far this morning, this is
5 particularly a suburban epidemic; and it is
6 particularly hitting our communities here in
7 Nassau County and Suffolk County. And it's about
8 time we did something about it.
9 [Applause.]
10 SENATOR MARTINS: You know, cheaper than a
11 pack of cigarettes, and deadlier than anything else
12 we've seen out there to date, we all know how
13 addictive these substances are.
14 Whether it's prescription, opioids, or
15 whether it's heroin, the fact that our kids can get
16 addicted on the very first dose should scare all of
17 us into a sense of reality.
18 And I want to thank the panelists who are
19 here today to participate in this discussion.
20 Here are some of the rules for today:
21 We're going to take the opportunity to
22 introduce all of our panelists, and then we're going
23 to get into some questions.
24 And, yes, we do have different facets of the
25 discussion here.
27 1 We have law enforcement. We have treatment.
2 We also have education.
3 And education, I think, is going to be our
4 path towards seeing this through, as we get our
5 schools and our school districts and our educators
6 involved in this discussion, and how do we begin to
7 address this holistically and bring it to the
8 surface.
9 It's about time we dealt with this in a very
10 real way.
11 So, we will have opportunities for questions
12 from the audience. I ask you to please consider
13 participating.
14 If you do have a question along the way,
15 raise your hand, someone will come to you. You'll
16 get an index card, fill it out, bring it up. And
17 we'll have an opportunity, then, to call on you at
18 some point during the session, so that we can have
19 that kind of active give-and-take that we're looking
20 for this morning.
21 So without further ado, I'm going to start by
22 asking, starting here on the top left corner of our
23 dais, Richard Buckman, who's the president of the
24 Long Island Recovery Association, to just briefly
25 introduce himself.
28 1 And then we can continue along the dais, and
2 then we'll continue again with Mr. Murr, until the
3 end of the dais, as well, so that we can then begin
4 our discussion.
5 Mr. Buckman.
6 RICHARD BUCKMAN: Sure.
7 Thank you, Senator Martins.
8 I'd like to thank Senator Boyle and the other
9 distinguished Senators for taking part in this very
10 important forum today.
11 My name's Richard Buckman, and the most
12 important thing I could say today, is that I'm a
13 person in long-term recovery from addiction since
14 August of 1988.
15 [Applause.]
16 RICHARD BUCKMAN: Thank you.
17 And I'd like to say that, in my estimation,
18 the reason I was able to be successful, and never
19 have a relapse since I started, was because I had
20 the opportunity to go to inpatient rehabilitation
21 for 28 days.
22 My insurance company paid for that.
23 We pay premiums for those kinds of things.
24 And, in my opinion, once again, I would not
25 be up here today, clean and sober nearly 26 years
29 1 later, if I didn't have that opportunity.
2 We have an opportunity now to do something to
3 change the law and impact that aspect. And I think
4 it's a highlight of what we're gonna talk about
5 today, hopefully.
6 And at the same time, I'm really excited that
7 everybody's here to talk about this, and we can come
8 out of here with a comprehensive way to address this
9 epidemic, not only here, but across the state.
10 We are charged with mobilizing people in
11 recovery statewide.
12 And I think you've been able to see that
13 we've been pretty successful with that, and we're
14 hoping to continue to contribute from that end.
15 Thank you very much.
16 [Applause.]
17 SENATOR BOYLE: Thank you.
18 DR. FRANK DOWLING: Thank you.
19 I'm Frank Dowling. I'm a psychiatric
20 physician with a practice in Suffolk County, and I'm
21 a counselor in the Medical Society of the State of
22 New York, and very active in the New York State
23 Psychiatric Association, and the New York State
24 Society for Addiction Medicine.
25 And I -- I, as well, want to thank
30 1 Senator Boyle and the Task Force for having these
2 meetings.
3 And I think it's really important that people
4 understand, although the focus is heroin and other
5 opioid addictions, addiction, across the board, is a
6 societal problem, and has been for over 100 years,
7 and will remain a problem.
8 And if we really get a handle on heroin and
9 other opioids, some other drug is gonna fill in,
10 unless we do that, because there's always a buyer
11 and there's always a seller.
12 So, any solutions really have to be
13 multifaceted, and, it needs to start with education.
14 It needs to start with families, community groups,
15 schools.
16 It does need to happen better in physicians'
17 offices.
18 I'm gonna keep my comments very brief right
19 now, and, hopefully, more comes out in the
20 discussion, but, primary-care physicians need more
21 support, to be better trained, to be able to screen
22 and intervene for addictions. And that includes
23 pediatricians, family physicians, OB/GYNs,
24 internists, et cetera.
25 And then there does need to be more access to
31 1 services. There really need to be a lot more
2 services there to begin with.
3 And then, payers -- whether it's Medicare,
4 Medicaid, or private payers -- need to pay for it,
5 and need to pay for it when that person with
6 addiction has the opportunity and the wherewithal to
7 say: I think I need to do something about this.
8 We need more research to figure out what
9 really does work, because I could argue that every
10 single treatment strategy works or doesn't work, and
11 find a study to support it.
12 Everybody finds their own way through all
13 that.
14 And the Medical Society had been asking for
15 years for improvements to the prescription-drug
16 database.
17 We now have that with I-STOP, and we have to
18 look up every single person before we prescribe a
19 controlled medication.
20 From Department of Health, I've been told,
21 the director of bureau narcotic enforcement, that
22 we're seeing a 75 percent drop in prescription-drug
23 doc shopping.
24 Heroin is rising faster because of that.
25 But it's important that everyone understand,
32 1 heroin first rose in the '90s, and never went away.
2 It started before the prescription-drug epidemic,
3 and never left. And now that we're getting a handle
4 on the prescription drugs, and have more to do,
5 heroin may be rising more, but it's part of the same
6 problem.
7 So, the Medical Society is still happy to
8 continue to work with everyone in this room and the
9 Legislature, to see if we can come up with some
10 solutions to bring forth this year.
11 One of them that's already passed the Senate
12 is legislation for Naloxone, which is an opioid
13 blocker that can reverse an overdose, and it can be
14 given intravenously, by intramuscular injection, or
15 even intranasally.
16 And non-medical people have been trained in
17 pilot programs to give it. And that's something
18 that we support very much, is the expansion of that.
19 There's some details in the wording of
20 legislation, that we can talk about another time.
21 And, I want to make it clear: Some people
22 misunderstand and think, if that's available, people
23 will be encouraged to use more.
24 I understand that question, but there's no
25 data to support that whatsoever.
33 1 People who use are at high risk for overdose,
2 especially with heroin, and high risk for accidental
3 overdose, death, and suicide death.
4 If Naloxone can be given and can reverse that
5 potential death, that person has, with the current
6 broken system and lack of access to care, about a
7 10 percent chance of getting into treatment in the
8 next 30 days.
9 I'll take that 10 percent and build from
10 there. That's 100 lives saved, 10 get into
11 treatment.
12 Let's get it up to 50 or 60, or even 100 out
13 of 100.
14 And I'll thank you, and I'll stop there.
15 SENATOR MARTINS: I appreciate that.
16 Thank you very much, Doctor.
17 [Applause.]
18 SENATOR MARTINS: I'll tell you what, why
19 don't we get through our panel. We'll make our
20 introductions, brief introductory statements,
21 because this give-and-take is exactly what we have
22 to come back to, and it's going to be part of our,
23 I guess, global discussions, and perhaps some of our
24 interaction with the audience.
25 So, please, continue.
34 1 JUDITH RAIMONDI: Good morning.
2 My name is Judy Raimondi, and I am the
3 president and founder of the Lindenhurst Community
4 Cares Coalition.
5 I want to thank Senator Phil Boyle for
6 including me today, and supporting our coalition.
7 The LCC's mission is to bring the
8 Lindenhurst community together in a united approach
9 against the alcohol and substance-abuse problem
10 plaguing our neighborhoods.
11 Our strategy is to raise awareness,
12 knowledge, and education, targeted to prevent
13 underaged drinking and substance abuse.
14 The strength of the strategy lies in the
15 number of community members willing to take a stand
16 for the health and wellbeing of our young people.
17 The goal is a well-informed and empowered
18 community committed to a healthy and drug-free
19 Lindenhurst.
20 The formation of my dedication to the LCC
21 started a year ago, when I became aware that, my
22 16-year-old daughter Victoria, her friend
23 Sarah [ph.] was using heroin.
24 This information scared and enraged me, and
25 triggered my protective instincts for my daughter,
35 1 for her friends, my family, and my community.
2 And as a result -- as a resident of
3 Lindenhurst for six years, a dedicated parent, and a
4 successful business person, I knew I had to do
5 something.
6 You want me to stop there?
7 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you. I appreciate
8 that.
9 Thank you very much.
10 JUDITH RAIMONDI: Okay, you got it.
11 TOM WILLDIGG: Hi, I'm Tom Willdigg. I'm now
12 a presently retired Nassau County detective, after
13 41 years of service: 31 of them as a detective,
14 8 as the union president for Nassau detectives, and
15 3 of them as the president of the New York State
16 Association of PBAs.
17 It's an honor to serve on this dais.
18 Thank you, Senator Boyle.
19 Thank you, Senator Skelos, who's not here.
20 It's also an honor to serve with my boyhood
21 friend Art Murr, who lost his son to heroin
22 addiction.
23 Addiction is a driving force for almost every
24 underlying -- for every major crime that occurs, up
25 to and including murder.
36 1 2007, I remember being at a union meeting,
2 and one of my delegates from narcotics said: You
3 can't throw a rock in [unintelligible], Seaford, or
4 Massapequa without hitting somebody using it or
5 dealing it.
6 With that, we went to the legislators.
7 We were very proactive in legislation
8 locally;
9 We dealt with the Nassau contingency, mostly,
10 Senator Marcellino, Senator Hannon, Senator Martins;
11 Upstate, as the New York State Association of
12 PBAs.
13 And we were pretty active in getting more
14 stringent drug laws.
15 Again, I have to agree with everybody at the
16 dais: It doesn't -- it's not about locking them up.
17 It's about educating them, and educating them all
18 the way down until they -- when they first get into
19 school.
20 It's all about education.
21 You don't want to end up on our side.
22 Thank you.
23 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you.
24 [Applause.]
25 DR. JAMES DOLAN: Hello, I'm Dr. Jim Dolan.
37 1 I'm the director of the Nassau County Office of
2 Mental Health, Chemical Dependency and Developmental
3 Disability Services.
4 Thank you, Senator Boyle, for inviting me
5 here today.
6 And thank you to the rest of the Senators and
7 all involved in this important effort.
8 Humans have been using one substance or
9 another since the beginning of recorded history.
10 Unfortunately, this often leads to substance abuse
11 that has dampened human potential and destroyed
12 lives.
13 Those most likely to experience the adverse
14 consequences of substance use are individuals with
15 mental illness, or people with typical levels of
16 depression or anxiety that is exacerbated by the
17 substance abuse.
18 Substance abuse is a biologically-based
19 disease that coincides with mental-health issues.
20 This is important to know, because it moves
21 us from the inaccurate understanding that
22 substance-use disorders can be separated from
23 mental-health concerns.
24 The best-practice treatment is to address
25 substance-abuse and mental-health issues
38 1 simultaneously.
2 However, oftentimes, that does not occur,
3 with the result being the delivery of care that is
4 less than one deserves.
5 Therefore, as the prevalence of addictive
6 disorders remains a pressing problem, we must
7 deliver the type of care that is most likely to
8 promote recovery.
9 The type of care that I am referencing is
10 known as "integrated care."
11 To "integrate care" means that one's drug,
12 alcohol, and mental-health concerns are treated
13 together, and one's physical health-care needs are
14 incorporated into the same treatment plan.
15 This treatment approach is necessary because
16 mental-health issues almost always accompany a
17 substance-abusing condition.
18 This is the case when the person with mental
19 illness abuses a substance to obtain relief from
20 their psychiatric symptoms, and when the person
21 undiagnosed with mental illness finds that their
22 underlying feelings of depression or anxiety are
23 ultimately worsened by the substance abuse.
24 Research findings also show that adults
25 experiencing any mental illness were more than
39 1 three times as likely to have a substance-use
2 disorder.
3 Children with depression are three times as
4 likely to have used an illicit drug.
5 And those with mental-health disorders are
6 more likely to be prescribed opioids for chronic
7 pain, and 2.4 times more likely to become
8 long-time -- long-term opioid users.
9 It is also noteworthy, that three-quarters of
10 mental illnesses emerge by age 24, but fewer than
11 one in five youths with diagnoseable problems
12 receive treatment; therefore, the likelihood that
13 someone with untreated mental-health concerns will
14 turn to substance abuse for self-medication purposes
15 is very high.
16 In addition, when we look at the high relapse
17 rates among those who abuse substances, we must
18 recognize that, without the substance, the person
19 may lack the psychological stability or coping
20 skills that are needed to maintain sobriety.
21 This all means that, while substance-abuse
22 and mental-health treatments have been effective in
23 many cases, the full potential of the treatment
24 intervention is not attained unless the
25 substance-abuse and mental-health care is integrated
40 1 and is coupled with the provision of physical health
2 care.
3 The reference to physical health care is made
4 because we know that, when people are accepting of
5 behavioral health care, it is the behavioral
6 health-care setting that becomes the person's
7 medical home.
8 And this provides us with the opportunity to
9 combine behavioral-health treatment with physical
10 health care, which may not be utilized unless it is
11 co-located with the behavioral-health service.
12 So, the implication of my comments are that,
13 we must move away from the inefficient siloed
14 approach to care, where one's substance-abuse,
15 mental-health, and physical health-care services are
16 delivered in three separate venues, in a manner
17 suggesting that we are able to divide the person
18 into three separate components.
19 Implementing the integrated-care approach
20 means that services are to be delivered at a single
21 location, practitioners are trained to treat the
22 substance-abuse and mental-health conditions
23 simultaneously, and State oversight bodies integrate
24 their regulations and funding streams in ways that
25 promote, rather than frustrate, integrated-care
41 1 delivery efforts.
2 Thank you.
3 [Applause.]
4 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you, Dr. Dolan.
5 ROBERT EWALD: My name is Robert Ewald. I am
6 the bureau chief of narcotics in the Suffolk County
7 District Attorney's Office, and I am here on behalf
8 of Tom Spota, the District Attorney.
9 We fully agree, and I've heard it very
10 eloquently said already, that there are three
11 components here that need to be combined: It's the
12 education, the treatment, as well as the
13 enforcement.
14 It's none of them by themselves, and other
15 people have spoken very well about that.
16 The one thing I will add at this point, is
17 that, for over 30 years dealing in narcotics, which
18 is where I have been, I've seen drug patterns
19 change, societal groups shift back and forth with
20 who's got a favorite for whatever drug, and so
21 forth.
22 And the end to the story is here: Whatever
23 collaborative effort comes out among those three
24 components, it is incumbent, for our own
25 preservation as a community, that us as panelists,
42 1 that all of you who have taken the time to come
2 here, and the press, must help spread this: That
3 this is a collaborative effort, and all three
4 components have to be supported; or else, in the
5 end, we'll end up with apathy, we'll end up with
6 these components being split up, and we will not
7 accomplish effectively what we want to, which is our
8 preservation and fruitfulness in the community.
9 [Applause.]
10 SENATOR MARTINS: Ms. Brown.
11 KATHY BROWN: Good morning.
12 I'm Kathy Brown. I'm the director of
13 Chemical Dependence Services for Catholic Charities.
14 I was the nurse manager at the crisis center
15 in Suffolk County for 25 years, and of the thousands
16 of people that I assessed for admission, not one of
17 them said to me: You know, I woke up one day and
18 decided I wanted the disease of addiction, and
19 I want to be an addict.
20 As a nurse, I also treated people with cancer
21 over the years, and not one of them also said to me:
22 I want the disease of cancer.
23 And, yet, we respond to these two diseases so
24 differently.
25 You don't hear communities saying: Cancer
43 1 isn't in our neighborhood.
2 But we do hear people saying: Drug addiction
3 is not in our neighborhood.
4 There's a stigma attached to this disease,
5 and we all need to work together, to reduce, to
6 eliminate, that stigma.
7 It's only then that we all work together.
8 It's only then that we can support those who
9 are fighting this disease, living with this disease,
10 that they can come out and say, "I need help."
11 We need to work together.
12 And I'm glad we're all here together, from
13 all the different disciplines, because, as I said:
14 A person doesn't choose to have this disease, but we
15 need to work together to convince them to treat the
16 disease.
17 Thank you.
18 [Applause.]
19 RENE FEITCHER: I'm Rene Feitcher, I'm an
20 assistant DA. I direct community affairs for the
21 Nassau DA's Office, under Kathleen Rice.
22 I'm also here as the chairman of the
23 Nassau County Heroin Prevention Task Force, which
24 I'm pleased to see many members are up here on the
25 panel, and in the audience.
44 1 I want to thank, Senator Boyle, and your --
2 other Senators, for putting together this task
3 force.
4 And I also want to express my celebration of
5 Shanna's and Jason's victory.
6 And, also, my condolences on the loss of
7 Matt.
8 Now, that's why we're here.
9 I've been doing this since 1975, when the
10 first wave of heroin came around.
11 I lost my younger brother to heroin
12 addiction.
13 I counted, recently, five people from the
14 family gone at this point.
15 And it was really a shock, when I came over
16 to the DA's office, to find that heroin was back.
17 I said: How could that have happened?
18 Didn't they know it was a bad thing? I thought we
19 were done with that. There'd be some new drug to
20 battle, but not heroin.
21 But, of course, we forgot about the
22 prescription drugs. And, we forgot that it's
23 cheaper and it's easier to get, and it's being
24 pumped, and it isn't -- it isn't a ghetto effort.
25 It's not that at all.
45 1 It's a middle-class, upper middle-class,
2 problem.
3 And that's actually the good news, because
4 it's in the news, and we're doing something about
5 it.
6 Now, most people say they're pretty broke.
7 So over at the DA's office we also agree with
8 the slogan: That you can't arrest your way out of
9 it.
10 Well, you do have to do some arresting.
11 There's no doubt about it.
12 There's predators out there, there's
13 "merchants of death" out there, that you have to
14 deal with.
15 But the addict is often the victim, and the
16 addict needs to get into treatment. And sometimes
17 coercion works to get a person into treatment.
18 And, it's for that reason that we believe
19 strongly in the diversion programs.
20 The drug court, TASK, the adolescent
21 diversion programs...all those are good vehicles.
22 I feel terrible that, you know, Shanna, you
23 didn't get into it through the proper door, but I'm
24 glad that you're doing so well with it now.
25 So our message is, really: That we want to
46 1 see a strong investment in those preventive
2 services.
3 Youth services really need a lot of help.
4 They need the money.
5 The drug and alcohol agencies need the money.
6 Our college students should be hired right
7 away into those programs. Who else but them can
8 talk to their peers better?
9 So we want that to be done.
10 We want the insurance laws to be changed, as
11 well.
12 We salute Senator Hannon's bill, that would
13 prevent -- would actually help get the insurance
14 policies to be more responsive; to have quicker
15 doors into treatment.
16 And we also salute the new laws that are
17 gonna allow Narcan to be disseminated much more
18 broadly.
19 I thought it was skeptical.
20 Who's gonna come across somebody having an
21 OD?
22 Well, actually, it's the families of the
23 people who have relapsed time and time and time
24 again. They will; they need it.
25 So our police have done a great job with it.
47 1 And, thanks to the Attorney General, it's a
2 good thing.
3 And I think that, if we can get it out -- the
4 Narcan out to more people, as a coalition, as Eden
5 and Detective Stark and some of the others have been
6 doing.
7 So, I'll be quiet, because I know it's short,
8 but thank you so much for this opportunity.
9 And thank you for being here.
10 [Applause.]
11 SENATOR MARTINS: Back to this side, Mr. and
12 Mrs. Murr.
13 ARTHUR MURR: Hi. Again, my name is Art
14 Murr. My wife, Denise.
15 We represent the parents.
16 I have to say, it's -- I mean, I'm so
17 grateful that Tom told me about this, and was
18 helping -- helped to get me onto this panel.
19 The fact that what I'm hearing is one of the
20 first times I'm actually hearing people talk about
21 treating this holistically.
22 About not looking at this and saying: We
23 have to arrest them.
24 Not looking at this and saying: Well, you
25 know, you have to just put them in treatment.
48 1 Or, it's not in my community, and there's
2 nothing to do with education.
3 This has got to do with everything.
4 And seeing this panel, and seeing all you
5 here, means that somebody's listening to this;
6 somebody's trying to understand.
7 And we have a very good opportunity at this
8 point to make change, and to make things happen.
9 I used to tell people -- I used to see
10 people, and I -- you know, and like when you tell
11 your story, or, worse, somebody would come up to me
12 and say -- who hadn't seen me in a long time, and
13 say, "Hey, how's Matt?"
14 And I'd stop, and I'd say it, and they'd look
15 at me.
16 And I would say: Yeah, that's a
17 conversation-stopper. "How's your family?"
18 They were relieved, and just went on about
19 their family.
20 They obviously felt bad about what happened,
21 but they just had no words. They couldn't figure
22 out what to say.
23 So, I started asking a question.
24 I used to ask people: So, do you know
25 somebody who has a problem with substance abuse?
49 1 And people would say: No.
2 And I would say: Think again. Do you know
3 somebody who has a problem with substance abuse?
4 And almost everyone would say: Yes.
5 I've changed that.
6 I now say to people: How many people do you
7 know who have problems with substance abuse?
8 And they'd say: One.
9 And I'd say: Well, uhm, you know me, so
10 that's two. How many more you gonna find out?
11 And they'd stop, and they'd think, and they'd
12 once again say: Right, there's a lot.
13 I said: It's maddening.
14 It's madness about what's going on. It's got
15 to stop.
16 This panel, I just -- you have no idea how
17 I feel about the idea that this is what's going on.
18 You've got to stop the shame. You have to
19 stop the stigma.
20 You gotta talk about the success stories that
21 are out there, because there are success stories out
22 there. There's lots of people.
23 Lots of famous people, in all walks of
24 life -- business, entertainment, politicians -- who
25 are successful, and had -- and had a substance-abuse
50 1 issue, who are in long-term recovery, and they're
2 very successful.
3 They need to speak up. You need to have role
4 models.
5 Without role models, people just look at it
6 and they go: Well, that's just me. It's just me.
7 No, no, no, that person out there has it.
8 You need to have that happen.
9 So, again, just, thank you, everybody, for
10 having the panel.
11 [Applause.]
12 DENISE MURR: Denise Murr, Matthew's mom.
13 I'm a retired special-ed teacher, so
14 education is really important to me.
15 I just find -- I've been asking the
16 high schools: How long do you speak about drugs?
17 One week. And sometimes they have a speaker
18 come in to the auditorium.
19 That's just not enough.
20 I mean, we all know that. It's not enough.
21 The other thing that I would like to mention
22 is the rehabs, the facilities.
23 My son was recommended to stay a certain
24 period of time. We had a very nice duly certified
25 psychiatrist working along with him, and he was
51 1 suggested to stay a certain period of time.
2 One facility released him, because his
3 counselor had hit one of the residents in the head,
4 so they were reorganizing, and they felt Matt was
5 ready to go home.
6 So, he came home to us.
7 Another facility, it had gotten very
8 dangerous. Drugs had come into the facility, and
9 the guys were beating up on each other, or whatever,
10 I don't know. But, he wasn't a troublemaker, so
11 they said he should leave.
12 His psychiatrist had said, and we all agreed,
13 including Matt, that he should be there for
14 15 months. And they released him after eight,
15 saying it was too dangerous for him to be there.
16 I just feel there has to be some more
17 supervision of the rehabs. Maybe they should be
18 overseen by someone, but, these things can't happen.
19 How is there gonna be rehabilitation when
20 they're sending them home, when they're not ready?
21 Thank you.
22 [Applause.]
23 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you.
24 ANTHONY RIZZUTO: Hi, everybody.
25 My name is Anthony Rizzuto. I work for
52 1 Seafield, and I'm the founder of FIST (Families in
2 Support of Treatment).
3 You know, I'm gonna try not to repeat.
4 There's been a lot of great things that have
5 been said already, and I really look forward to the
6 rest of the day.
7 And I want to thank Senator Boyle and the
8 rest of the Senators for giving me an opportunity to
9 share a couple of thoughts with you.
10 I'm gonna just take a look.
11 None of us need to be convinced that there's
12 an epidemic going on, and that our communities, our
13 families, our sons, our daughters, are -- are
14 dealing with situations that have really never been
15 seen to this extent.
16 You can't talk to too many 20-year-old --
17 today, 20-year-olds that haven't -- don't know
18 somebody that has been exposed to this, and have
19 gone to at least five funerals.
20 So that one we can kind of put aside.
21 I think we're in agreement with that.
22 The issue that we're having is, that we have
23 a systemic problem, and this systemic problem needs
24 to be approached, as my colleagues said up here,
25 from many different areas.
53 1 We cannot just go and have one solution.
2 I think law enforcement does play a part, in
3 terms of helping to take away some of the supply.
4 We cannot allow that to just continue coming in the
5 way it comes in.
6 I think that, you know, when you're dealing
7 with an addiction which is a disease, it's a brain
8 disease, that we need to have treatment that's
9 available.
10 I think, in the long term -- because we have
11 a short-term solution to deal with the situation
12 that we're currently up against right now -- but if
13 we're gonna look down the road, we need to do some
14 prevention.
15 We need to start with our kids. We need to
16 implement prevention into our schools and start the
17 process, so we're not dealing with this 10, 15 years
18 down the road.
19 So I think there's many different sides to
20 this.
21 I'm gonna just to share with you where I am.
22 I have been a clinician now for the last,
23 about, 13 years.
24 And I will tell you that, along the lines of,
25 I believe it was Jason had mentioned, and Shanna had
54 1 mentioned, the frustrations of being a clinician and
2 having somebody come to you, and you do a 16-page
3 evaluation, and determine, a person reporting, you
4 know, using 15 bags of heroin a day intravenously,
5 and then trying to set up a treatment plan for them.
6 And hearing stuff like -- well, for instance,
7 in that scenario, the first thing I would want to do
8 is separate that person from the drug. And call up
9 the insurance companies and hear they don't meet
10 medical necessity.
11 Now just think about that for a second.
12 Somebody that you love and care about, who
13 you have been trying to get help for, forever, who
14 is not willing to accept it, was fighting with you
15 tooth and nail, and did not -- because inherent in
16 the disease is denial, so the first one that sees
17 the problem is not the person that struggles with
18 the problem. It's the people that love and care
19 about them, and they start trying to intervene, to
20 try and get them help.
21 And for some people, it takes many
22 consequences before they say "uncle", and they say,
23 Okay, I'm ready. I'll do whatever it takes.
24 That window of opportunity, as the Murrs
25 explained, is very short. Okay?
55 1 Being able to get them the help when that
2 window is open is essential.
3 On a regular basis, we call up to try and get
4 authorization, and we get denied access.
5 So, today, you can be a person using heroin
6 intravenously, 15 bags a day, and be told that you
7 don't meet medical necessity.
8 Digest that for a second.
9 How is that possible?
10 That is pathetic.
11 So, what's the outcome?
12 So the outcome is, that when a person can't
13 get the help, right, because, when a person decides
14 they want to get help, it's, either, I get help and
15 I deal with my withdrawals in a medical setting, and
16 I'm able to be able to get treatment here, or,
17 I have to continue getting high.
18 Because if you've ever seen anybody withdraw
19 from using a substantial amount of heroin or
20 pain killers, it's not a pretty sight; hence
21 pharmacy shootings, and hence all these things that
22 people are willing to do.
23 We have people that are criminals today that
24 had never committed a criminal act in their life
25 prior to getting involved in drugs and alcohol.
56 1 The last thing I'll say is, that's how FIST
2 came about; is trying to bring families together to
3 give families a voice.
4 And this issue, by the way, is not limited to
5 New York State.
6 Right after FIST was born, we got phone calls
7 from Florida, Connecticut, New Jersey, "Would you
8 come here?"
9 The idea is, to give those that don't have a
10 voice a voice.
11 And the whole idea behind FIST is, in unity
12 there is strength.
13 And there are a lot of families that are
14 yelling and screaming about what's happening, and it
15 seems like nobody's listening.
16 Well, the goal is to try and bring those
17 voices together and be able to make a change.
18 And I'm -- I can't help but talk about this
19 stigma and this shame, because I can't tell you how
20 many people are isolated because of the stigma and
21 shame, and don't realize -- I'll share this last
22 thing and I'll move on.
23 I run a family education series, and I had
24 two parents. I had a woman come in to speak, and
25 I had someone that was in the audience, and she went
57 1 over and said to her, you know, "You don't remember
2 me."
3 And, their kids played on the soccer field
4 together. Both of them were going through the same
5 thing at the same time. They were shoulder to
6 shoulder on the side of the field, and neither knew
7 what the other was going through.
8 That's because of shame, and that's because
9 of stigma.
10 So I'm going to do my little part to try and
11 do something towards shame and stigma.
12 My name is Anthony, and I am a person in
13 long-term recovery, for over 20 years, through the
14 grace of God, through a loving family, through a
15 12-step fellowship, and through treatment. I have
16 not had to use anything for over 20 years.
17 That's allowed me --
18 [Applause.]
19 ANTHONY RIZZUTO: Thank you.
20 That's allowed me to be a father to my son.
21 It's allowed me to be a father to my daughter. It's
22 allowed me to be a husband to my wife. It's allowed
23 me to be a son to my parents.
24 Unless we start doing this, the only thing
25 that people know about addiction is all of the
58 1 ugliness of it.
2 So it is imperative, I reach out to my
3 brothers and sisters that struggle with the same
4 illness, let people know, "we count."
5 Thank you.
6 [Applause.]
7 JOHN VENZA: Good morning, ladies and
8 gentlemen.
9 My name is John Venza. I'm the
10 vice president, Adolescent Services for Outreach.
11 I'd like to thank Senator Boyle and the rest
12 of the Senators and Task Force for convening this
13 important panel discussion today, and around the
14 state, particularly for those young people and
15 families in all of our communities.
16 As vice president of a non-profit
17 organization and outreach that helps address the
18 issues stemming from drug and alcohol abuse, I have
19 a front-line perspective to the destructive
20 consequences opiate use has had on our young people.
21 Many recent discussions concerning opiate use
22 and young people has appropriately focused on the
23 transitional-age youth, 18 to 25 years of age.
24 Unfortunately, I am witnessing another trend
25 emerging out of the opiate crisis. I want to assert
59 1 that Outreach is treating an alarming number of
2 adolescents, 17 and under, for use of opioids and
3 heroin.
4 A short while back I shared about the
5 13-year-old female from Suffolk County in treatment
6 at Outreach House who became heroin-involved.
7 Understandably, this case continues to
8 unnerve people when I mention it.
9 Today I want to open by again mentioning the
10 high school-age opioid and heroin users.
11 At Outreach, we are treating the largest
12 number of opioid-involved teens in the agency's
13 34-year history.
14 As of last week, approximately 50 percent of
15 the teenagers at Outreach House were
16 opiate-involved, and many heroin-addicted.
17 Lives are being ruined, children are dying,
18 as the opioid crisis now has a foothold in the
19 13-to-17-year-old population.
20 I look forward to the discussion we're
21 beginning here today on Long Island, and the lively
22 dialogue that will set us on the way to a meaningful
23 action agenda to stem this emerging tide.
24 Thank you.
25 [Applause.]
60 1 KYM LAUBE: Good morning. My name is
2 Kym Laube. I am the executive director of HUGS, the
3 president of the Quality Consortium of
4 Suffolk County. I also serve on statewide task
5 forces.
6 It is my pleasure to be here.
7 My primary role is in prevention, so every
8 time these folks are mentioning education and
9 prevention, my heart is skipping a beat, and I'm
10 getting really excited, because that's where this
11 dialogue -- uhm, that must be part of the dialogue
12 that we're having.
13 Young people are protected by four different
14 places: The individual and their peer groups, their
15 school groups, their family groups, and their
16 community groups.
17 And those are the four areas we must focus
18 on; that sound prevention is happening in every one
19 of those areas.
20 We also need to make sure that we begin the
21 dialogue of substance abuse, and look at it as
22 health policy, the same as we look at washing hands,
23 wearing seat belts, using sun block; that this is
24 part of a disease we're trying to prevent, and it
25 needs to be, just simply, that part of the dialogue
61 1 that starts early on, long before even kids hit
2 high school. That this is really family policy that
3 gets established.
4 In following the suits of my colleagues who
5 I respect and admire, I also love to share that the
6 fact that I got sober before it was even legal for
7 me to drink, when I was 20 years old.
8 And for those of you who are trying to figure
9 out the math, I just turned 45, so I'll keep it
10 really simple on you.
11 [Laughter.]
12 [Applause.]
13 KYM LAUBE: And I share that. It's not
14 something I generally share in public, in a venue
15 like this, but in the spirit of today, it is
16 important.
17 So I look forward for the opportunity to talk
18 about this, to talk about prevention, to talk about
19 all the different strategies we can put in place.
20 We were here not so long ago when we had the
21 first hearing; that Senator Boyle held the first
22 hearing.
23 It's awesome that the audience numbers have
24 probably quadrupled, in my guesstimate.
25 And that's awesome, and that means we're
62 1 paying attention, folks.
2 So, now -- we now know the now -- the
3 "So what?"
4 Now we need to face and look at the
5 "Now what?" What are we going to do now?
6 Thanks for the opportunity to join in the
7 dialogue.
8 [Applause.]
9 STEVE MARGOLIES: Good morning. My name is
10 Steve Margolies. I'm the vice president and
11 medical director of the New York Region of
12 Phoenix House.
13 First, I'd like to thank Senator Boyle and
14 his esteemed colleagues for inviting us to
15 participate in this event, and I think this is a
16 great start. I think we're really moving in the
17 right direction.
18 I've been treating addiction in my career
19 for -- in most of my career as a physician.
20 And, if you look at the extent of the
21 epidemic, as where it is right now, if you add up
22 all the previous drug-abuse and substance-abuse
23 epidemics in the United States, from the '70s heroin
24 epidemic and the crack cocaine epidemic in the
25 '80s, it does not equal to half of what's going on
63 1 today. You can look at the sheer numbers. It's
2 actually on par with, and surpassing, HIV/AIDS right
3 now.
4 The National Institute on Drug Abuse is
5 estimating that there's 23 million Americans who
6 would qualify for a substance-abuse disorder;
7 however, 7 to 10 percent are actually accessing
8 treatment.
9 And in my -- to me, that's an unacceptable.
10 If you look at how people access treatment,
11 this is a multifactorial system that needs to be
12 developed. We need to partner with law enforcement,
13 with schools, with primary-care physicians.
14 There isn't anybody in this country who's not
15 affected by substance abuse in one way or another.
16 And I think, until we look at meeting people
17 where they are, rather than waiting for them to be
18 referred to us because something happened, we're
19 really not affecting on this problem as well as we
20 should be.
21 For Phoenix House, we've seen an immense
22 increase in the opiate use, especially in
23 Long Island, and it's all starting in the same
24 place. This is a new demographic for
25 substance-abuse treatment.
64 1 In the past, it was sort of concentrated in
2 the inner cities, and now we are seeing suburban,
3 middle-class, and upper middle-class coming in, all
4 starting with the same story: Everyone is starting
5 using prescription drugs, and switching to heroin
6 when they can't afford it.
7 I think that we've made some good steps with
8 I-STOP, but I think the work really has to be done,
9 and it has to be done together.
10 And, again, thank you.
11 [Applause.]
12 DR. MICHAEL F. RING: Good morning. I'm
13 Michael Ring, and I'm superintendent of the
14 Rocky Point School District.
15 And I, too, want to thank Senator Boyle and
16 the Task Force for inviting me to be here today.
17 It's important to get the message out that
18 schools, just like everybody who's on this panel,
19 are on the front lines of this war and the everyday
20 battles that we fight.
21 And I'm glad to hear that everyone believes
22 that education is a key component of it, but within
23 education there's so much that we need to do, that's
24 what would normally be thought of as outside the
25 bounds of traditional education.
65 1 And, this is one of those areas.
2 And we in Rocky Point, with a very supportive
3 community, have been, I don't know if we're at the
4 forefront, but we're certainly up there, in terms of
5 being unique in how we're approaching the problems
6 in our community.
7 Senator Martins indicated earlier that this
8 isn't a problem just in certain places, and there
9 aren't certain communities that are immune to it.
10 And that in those communities, the kids smoke
11 cigarettes, which as you pointed out are more
12 expensive than some of these other substances, or
13 they just drink.
14 They don't. They're doing this as well. And
15 it's happening in every community.
16 Perhaps one of the things that makes
17 Rocky Point community and our board of education
18 unique, is that our head's not in the sand.
19 We see it, we see it for what it is, and
20 we're trying to address head-on.
21 We, too, look at the approach as being a
22 three-part approach:
23 Part one, of course, is education, and that's
24 what we're best at, but we need to get a lot better
25 at education on substance abuse;
66 1 The second part is prevention and
2 intervention;
3 And the third part is support and building
4 bridges.
5 And being here today is part of that building
6 bridges. And we need more of those bridges.
7 You've heard the theme over and over again
8 this morning about resources, and it does come down
9 to money, because we need to put soldiers on the
10 ground, we need boots on the ground, in terms of
11 fighting this battle.
12 In Rocky Point, when we looked at it, we
13 said:
14 This isn't something that's just Johnny's
15 problem, who's in eleventh grade, who we know is
16 involved with heroin, because Johnny's got a sister
17 who's in the middle school, and he's got a little
18 brother who's in the elementary school. And he's
19 out on the playground right now. He doesn't know
20 what life has in store for him.
21 Or, there's Sally, who's out there on the
22 playground. And Sally's parents are substance
23 abusers, and no one's dealing with Sally.
24 So our program is a K-to-12 integrated
25 program, and it takes a lot of resources.
67 1 And we've had a supportive community in terms
2 of those resources.
3 Last night, after a generally unexciting
4 board-of-education meeting, thankfully, I was home,
5 and I was reading a federal grant proposal that
6 we're getting ready to put in at the end of this
7 month, and it's for support for counseling,
8 including psychiatric, other mental-health
9 professionals, substance abuse.
10 And I think it's great, and we need those
11 funds. And I hope, out of all of the schools in the
12 country that apply, that we're one that is chosen.
13 But one of the things that went through my
14 mind as I'm reading it, is this is a 36-month grant,
15 and it has to be renewed each year during that
16 36-month period.
17 So, what if we get started and we can't keep
18 going?
19 And it came through my mind -- and I'm sort
20 of pleased to see Senator Flanagan here today, not
21 to put him on the spot, but as the head of --
22 [Laughter.]
23 DR. MICHAEL F. RING: -- but as the head of
24 Public Education Committee -- it strikes me that we
25 have categorical aid lines and expense-driven aid
68 1 lines in our State aid for a number of different
2 things. We really don't have one for this.
3 And a lot of schools don't have the resources
4 and they've cut programs like this. They're not
5 mandated, and we could cut them and save hundreds of
6 thousands of dollars a year, just to keep our
7 classrooms with teachers in them.
8 But, perhaps, a categorical aid or an
9 expense-driven aid that would be based on what
10 schools are doing, in terms of education,
11 intervention prevention, support, and building those
12 bridges, would give every school district, even
13 those that are in denial, the opportunity to do what
14 we're doing in Rocky Point.
15 And I thank you, and thank you for having me
16 here.
17 [Applause.]
18 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you.
19 I'm going to -- I'm gonna start on our -- on
20 everyone's right, with Sheriff DeMarco.
21 SHERIFF VINCENT DEMARCO: My name is
22 Vincent DeMarco, and as the Suffolk County Sheriff,
23 I have a unique perspective on the heroin epidemic
24 on Long Island.
25 Every day, I encounter drug-addicted
69 1 individuals at the Suffolk County Correctional
2 Facility, who are destined to years, and possibly a
3 lifetime, of cycling in and out of the criminal
4 justice system.
5 In fact, studies show that two-thirds of
6 substance abusers leaving jail or prison will return
7 within three years.
8 The cycle jeopardizes public safety, and
9 presents a heavy burden on taxpayers, small
10 businesses, families, and communities.
11 These are the same people robbing banks,
12 convenient stores, and pharmacies, burglarizing
13 homes, and creating the lure for drug cartels to
14 target our area.
15 I've often stated that we can't incarcerate
16 our way out of this drug epidemic and expect that it
17 will somehow make our communities safer.
18 The facts are:
19 That it costs county taxpayers $277 a day to
20 incarcerate someone. That's almost $100,000 per
21 inmate per year.
22 The cost of recent jail construction in
23 Suffolk will cost more than $255 million by the time
24 it's paid off in 2031, and that doesn't even include
25 another $150 million for upcoming State-mandated
70 1 jail-construction projects.
2 Policymakers from both sides of the political
3 spectrum need to come together to find
4 rehabilitative and preventive solutions that can
5 break the cycle of addiction and inmate recidivism.
6 "NBC News" is running a story this week
7 called "How To Fix Rehab." And what many experts in
8 the field are saying, is that there needs to be more
9 flexibility built into the existing treatment
10 models.
11 That might mean addressing educational
12 deficits, health-care and mental-health problems,
13 housing, and other issues, within a long-term
14 recovery environment.
15 This makes a lot of sense.
16 And because there's so much overlap between
17 the criminal justice and drug-treatment systems,
18 I think there needs to be a concerted effort among
19 policymakers to develop alternatives to
20 incarceration that will address the underlying
21 causes of addiction and crime.
22 Thank you for having me here today, Senators,
23 and I look forward to answering any questions
24 throughout the day.
25 [Applause.]
71 1 SENATOR MARTINS: Dr. Jeff Reynolds.
2 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: Good morning.
3 My name is Dr. Jeffrey Reynolds. I'm the
4 executive director of the Long Island Council on
5 Alcoholism and Drug Dependence.
6 I want to thank Senator Boyle and the rest of
7 the delegation for holding this event.
8 It's ironic that I'm seated next to the
9 sheriff.
10 Can you guys hear me?
11 SENATOR MARTINS: Yes.
12 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: Is that better?
13 Nobody told me. I sat up here --
14 [Laughter.]
15 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: You lost all the good
16 stuff now.
17 [Laughter.]
18 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: I notice I'm seated
19 next to the sheriff.
20 I wonder if that's intentional?
21 I took an extra water. I'm sorry.
22 [Laughter.]
23 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: You know, I've done a
24 couple of these things before. We've been doing
25 them for many, many years, and I think we no longer
72 1 kind of question whether or not there's a crisis
2 or -- or an epidemic.
3 And I think one of the things that the
4 current crisis has done, is to put a spotlight on
5 all the preexisting conditions that led us to this
6 point in time.
7 Whether we're talking about our failures to
8 adequately prevent substance abuse, which seems to
9 grow exponentially over time.
10 We look at what's happening in schools, and,
11 perhaps, present company excluded, there's not
12 enough happening in Long Island school districts.
13 [Applause.]
14 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: Good prevention isn't
15 throwing a thousand kids in an auditorium and having
16 a guy like me come and scare them.
17 [Laughter.]
18 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: It doesn't work.
19 And as we talk about the Core Curriculum and
20 high-stakes testing, we can't pit these two things
21 together, because we know kids who are drunk, high,
22 or dead of overdoses do lousy on standardized tests.
23 If we want them to do better --
24 [Applause.]
25 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: -- let's treat their
73 1 needs. Let's meet them where they're at, and make
2 sure that we're doing what we should be doing on the
3 treatment front.
4 And a couple folks have talked about this:
5 The stuff insurance companies are doing today would
6 not be acceptable for any other disease.
7 It shouldn't be acceptable for addiction.
8 [Applause.]
9 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: Our folks should not
10 be told they need to fail -- and the language is
11 intentional -- at outpatient treatment before they
12 get inpatient. Insurance companies then pay for
13 seven days worth of inpatient.
14 The person relapses, and they say: Whoop, it
15 didn't work. We're not paying for it again.
16 This has to stop. And it's the ultimate
17 cost-shift.
18 When the insurance companies say yes -- say
19 no, Vinnie DeMarco says yes.
20 When the insurance companies say no, our
21 medical examiners are saying yes.
22 And parents like the Murrs are left running
23 around in circles, looking for help.
24 That can't happen anymore. We need to stop
25 that.
74 1 The one thing we haven't talked a lot about
2 here, in terms of continuum or prevention access to
3 treatment and recovery:
4 You've got folks who go off to, perhaps, the
5 best treatment in the world. We get them early on
6 in the game and they go off to great treatment.
7 They come back after 28 days, if they're
8 lucky, and we throw them right back into the same
9 environment: the same family, the same friends, the
10 same dealers, the same school, the same communities,
11 that led them down the path in the first place.
12 And then we point a finger at them and say:
13 Why did you relapse?
14 We've got to build better support systems for
15 young people in recovery.
16 We remain the only major metropolitan area
17 without a recovery high school.
18 And though I believe that every school should
19 be a recovery school, the God's honest truth is,
20 they're not.
21 We remain one of the only major metropolitan
22 areas without a recovery center for young people.
23 That's got to change, too. We've got to make
24 sure that we're supporting these kids: lifting up
25 their stories and lifting up their lives.
75 1 You know, finally, when we think about the
2 other natural disasters, and that's how I look at
3 this, that have hit Long Island, including
4 "Hurricane Sandy"; in the wake of "Sandy," we all,
5 especially these guys to my right, stepped back and
6 said:
7 Why weren't we better prepared?
8 What do we need to do as individuals and
9 communities to make sure this devastation never
10 happens again?
11 And nobody was that worried about what it
12 would cost, quite frankly. We did what it took to
13 rebuild.
14 The same needs to go for this natural
15 disaster, so that we don't have more families
16 walking this road.
17 We need to take this as seriously as a
18 hurricane. It's wiping out families, left and
19 right.
20 So, thank you again for hosting this.
21 I appreciate the opportunity.
22 [Applause.]
23 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you, Dr. Reynolds.
24 Congratulations, and thank you to all of our
25 panelists.
76 1 I want to take the opportunity to give each
2 of our Task Force members also an opportunity to say
3 a few words before we get into the topics that we
4 have today.
5 We have a very ambitious agenda.
6 We'll go over the ground rules in a few
7 minutes, as far as the Q&A and the give-and-take.
8 We have a lot of passion here in the room.
9 Certainly, a lot of passion here amongst our
10 panelists. And I'm sure in the audience, as well.
11 But we do have, and would like to cover, each
12 and every one of these topics, so we're going to
13 start limiting our responses.
14 But before we get there, Senator Flanagan, as
15 was mentioned, Chair of our Senate Education
16 Committee. Certainly one of our leaders on
17 education issues statewide, and the go-to person in
18 the New York State Senate, if not the state, when it
19 comes to education.
20 Senator Flanagan, would you like to say a few
21 words?
22 SENATOR FLANAGAN: Yes, thank you.
23 It really is humbling to be sitting up here
24 with all these experts and professionals.
25 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: The microphone's off.
77 1 SENATOR FLANAGAN: I'm doing the same thing.
2 Okay.
3 Hi, I'm Dr. Jeff Reynolds.
4 I'm sorry --
5 [Laughter.]
6 SENATOR FLANAGAN: I apologize.
7 It is humbling to be up here with all these
8 professionals and experts, and, equally, if not
9 more, humbling to be looking out at all the parents
10 and the family members out here, because, as people
11 are speaking, you know that you're engaged, when you
12 can see in the audience, the reaction, the human
13 reaction, from all the people that are here.
14 The human-interest stories, Shanna and Jason:
15 awesome.
16 That four-month-old baby must be absolutely
17 adorable. Congratulations.
18 And, I just want to speak to a very few brief
19 things.
20 I want to congratulate Senator Boyle.
21 This is ambitious, because I know I've
22 traveled around the state on education.
23 To do this type of work in such a tight time
24 period will be exemplary, in many ways.
25 Senator Hannon, he won't say this; I'll say
78 1 it on his behalf: I-STOP, he has been a champion.
2 And he is one of the few legitimate experts in the
3 Legislature.
4 So, from a policy level, he's as good as it
5 gets. And he is our --
6 [Applause.]
7 SENATOR FLANAGAN: He is.
8 Then I think of people.
9 I just saw again today, Mrs. Ventorino [ph.]
10 from Kings Park, here, who I met in Albany; had some
11 meetings.
12 Her son passed, roughly, two years ago. And,
13 that, in itself is humbling.
14 Dr. Ring, the -- I'm going to say it flat
15 out. Okay?
16 I am Chair of the Senate Education Committee,
17 and there are many school districts across
18 Long Island that absolutely have their heads in the
19 sand. They don't want to recognize this problem.
20 They don't want to recognize this epidemic. And,
21 it's because of things, like, property values, and
22 no one wants the scourge of drugs or substance abuse
23 in their communities.
24 It's here.
25 And as Jeff said, we have many things that we
79 1 need to do, and be prepared.
2 If it's expense-based aid, so be it.
3 To me, probably the most effective thing, and
4 I'm by no means an expert, is peer-to-peer.
5 You get kids who can be leaders and group
6 leaders and semi-counselors in the high school and
7 the junior high school level, there is nothing more
8 effective.
9 No disrespect to our experts up here, but,
10 peer-to-peer seems, to me, to be one of the single
11 most important and effective things we can do.
12 So, I'm gratified to be amongst you, and
13 I appreciate the opportunity.
14 [Applause.]
15 SENATOR MARTINS: Senator Marcellino.
16 SENATOR MARCELLINO: (Turns on microphone.)
17 See, I listened and I learned.
18 [Laughter.]
19 SENATOR MARCELLINO: I'm also not exactly one
20 of the younger members of this group.
21 I've taught school for 20 years in the city
22 of New York: biology.
23 And when I started teaching in the early
24 '60s, I would stand out, because I was one of the
25 bigger guys in the building, so, they made me Dean
80 1 of Boys.
2 We could say that then.
3 Now have you to be Dean of Students,
4 politically correct.
5 But I was Dean of Boys then.
6 We had deans of girls, as well.
7 I would stand out in the hallway, and as the
8 kids walked by, "Hey, Mr. M," "Hiya, Mr. M";
9 "Come here. Go in my office."
10 Fewer kids more, "Come here. Go in my
11 office."
12 One of the teachers would come up to me and
13 say: Why are you doing that?
14 I said: He's stoned. He's stoned. She's
15 stoned. It's as simple as that. And I'm not
16 letting them walk through the halls of this building
17 without getting ahold of their parents.
18 Some parents wanted to hear from us.
19 Some parents did not want to hear from us, it
20 was painfully obvious.
21 But, you did what had to do, and you did what
22 you could. And maybe we saved some lives; maybe we
23 lost some lives.
24 But we tried to inform and we tried to
25 educate, and we tried to do this.
81 1 So this scourge has been going on forever.
2 Someone asked: Why in the suburbs now?
3 It was a fellow by the name of Willie Sutton,
4 some years ago. He used to rob banks.
5 And I asked him: Why do you rob banks?
6 And he said: That's where the money is.
7 [Laughter.]
8 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Well, the suburbs is
9 where the money is.
10 That's where the money is.
11 If you're gonna sell something, you want to
12 go where people have the money to buy what you want
13 to sell.
14 We have the money in the suburbs.
15 We run a program every once in a while, out
16 of my office, called "Shed the Meds," where we go
17 and we tell people: Bring us your unused
18 medication, all of it, and we'll take it from you.
19 And we always have a member of the
20 police department here, either Nassau County's
21 finest or Suffolk County's finest, sitting with us,
22 and they take the stuff. We bag it, they take it
23 away, and they dispose of it and destroy it.
24 We have never taken less than six 60-gallon
25 garbage bags full of pills, just by sitting out in
82 1 front of a firehouse, or whatever, and advertising
2 in a community: Just come in here, drop off your
3 unused, expired, unwanted medications.
4 One building, we picked twelve 60-gallon bags
5 of pills, that were disposed of by the
6 Suffolk County Police Department.
7 There's an awful lot of stuff that we have in
8 our homes.
9 Kids have parties with that stuff.
10 They take fists full of it, they bring them
11 to the party, they throw them in a jug, and then,
12 they grab a fistful and they take them, and see what
13 happens.
14 They don't know what they're taking. They
15 haven't got a clue. It's just from mom and dad's
16 medicine chest that they're grabbing this stuff.
17 So, what we can do, to a large extent, is
18 clear the crap out of your houses. Get rid of it.
19 Don't keep it around.
20 Don't flush it. We don't want it in our
21 water supply.
22 But dispose of it.
23 The police department will take it from you,
24 no questions asked. They'll remove it for you, and
25 dispose of it for you.
83 1 Every precinct has a place for it.
2 So I would suggest, that, go through your
3 medicine chests and deal with that right away, and
4 get rid of the stuff that's in your homes.
5 We have too much, just lying around.
6 If you need it, that's one thing, but make
7 sure you have it and count it.
8 When I travel, I take pills with me because
9 I need to take some. And I always keep them, and
10 I count them, so I know what I have.
11 And, in the morning, I count them again, to
12 make sure whoever came in and fixed the room up
13 didn't remove some of my pills, because I found that
14 they were doing that for a period of time.
15 So you never know what's going on.
16 The words here: Education. Information.
17 Interaction.
18 Talk to your children. Talk to them.
19 Kids, talk to your parents. Sometimes they
20 need education more than you do about this stuff.
21 Let them know what you know.
22 Engage in the conversation.
23 Not always pleasant. Sometimes there is a
24 little resistance on the part of the youngster.
25 That makes me think that maybe you should get
84 1 involved even more. Don't let them push you away.
2 And don't be easily removed from this situation.
3 I'm glad to hear the superintendent say, and
4 John knows it, as well as I do, that many districts
5 do have their heads in the sand and are in denial.
6 "We don't have a drug problem in the system."
7 "We don't have a drug problem in this
8 neighborhood."
9 Nobody wants to admit to it, but it's in
10 every neighborhood. We all know it. You all see
11 it. They all behind us treat it.
12 And, frankly, it's been going on too long.
13 It's time to end this, and time to bring it
14 to closure.
15 Legislation, we'll do.
16 We have bills on the table now. There are
17 bills in the Senate and in the Assembly.
18 There are laws that are passed, but they
19 don't mean much unless we all get involved in this.
20 This is not something someone else can do for
21 you. You have to do it, for your family, for
22 yourselves.
23 And we'll help, but, you're on the front
24 lines. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
25 You're on the front lines.
85 1 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you.
2 [Applause.]
3 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you,
4 Senator Marcellino.
5 And, as a brief introduction to our next
6 panelist:
7 Senator Kemp Hannon, as has already been
8 mentioned, chairs Health in the New York State
9 Senate.
10 For those of you who may not know this,
11 Senator Hannon is the go-to person in New York State
12 when it come to health issues.
13 He's also among a handful of go-to people
14 nationwide, and experts, when it comes to health
15 issues.
16 And we're truly fortunate to have him, not
17 only as a resource here in New York State, but,
18 certainly, as a resource here on Long Island.
19 He is the architect behind I-STOP.
20 He is the architect behind efforts to take
21 that second step, which we all knew would be
22 necessary when we closed off access to prescription
23 drugs; that there would be a push towards an
24 increased use of illegal drugs: heroin.
25 And Kemp Hannon has been leading that fight,
86 1 introducing legislation, and keeping the issue on
2 the forefront of our state-policy initiative.
3 He is the person we all turn to on any issue
4 having to do with health.
5 And it truly is remarkable that we have him
6 right here with us, and available as a resource.
7 Senator Hannon.
8 [Applause.]
9 SENATOR HANNON: Thank you, Senator Martins.
10 And thank you to my colleagues who are here,
11 because, as all of you in this room have gone
12 through a personal circumstance in your families,
13 and your relatives and your friends, you've often
14 wanted to make sure that somebody was listening.
15 And, in a gradual way, the State has begun to
16 listen more and more as we've gone through this wave
17 of addiction.
18 Somebody before said: I was there at the
19 first wave in the '70s.
20 Well, it really predated that.
21 There was the whole methadone treatment
22 program for heroin addiction in the '60s.
23 So we've been fighting a long time, and
24 things come in into popularity and go out.
25 But, Senator Boyle, by your commitment to
87 1 this, and to your staff, gathering together so many
2 people who are key to moving forward, I think we've
3 taken a major step.
4 You'll have eleven more hearings to
5 illustrate how it's just not Long Island; how it's
6 in every community of the state.
7 And, unfortunately, it tends to be more in
8 the suburbs than in the inner city, or in the rural
9 areas than in the inner city, so we have a different
10 locus of our problem at the moment.
11 But, thank you, Senator Boyle.
12 The phrase that I use sometimes as a joke is:
13 I'm from government, I'm here to help you.
14 [Laughter.]
15 SENATOR HANNON: And you laugh, because you
16 should, because we're not the repository of
17 information.
18 And as you go through trying to formulate
19 policy in regard to treatment for health or
20 addiction or mental illness, you don't always have
21 the just-right answers, and that's why we have
22 persistent problems.
23 So, you're gonna have to be -- bear with me a
24 little bit, because I'll be a little pedantic about
25 the legislative process.
88 1 We just finished the budget a week ago. The
2 fourth year we did it on time. And it was a pretty
3 excruciating process for all of us, and pretty
4 time-consuming, not to say, probably the most
5 consuming was for Senator Flanagan, who's very happy
6 not to hear the phrase "Common Core" this morning.
7 [Laughter.]
8 SENATOR HANNON: But at the end of a process,
9 there's a lot of things that don't happen. Nothing
10 to do with here today.
11 But I often say: If we did something
12 legislatively or in the budget, the folks who are
13 interested in getting that enacted say, "What took
14 you so long?"
15 And if they didn't get it, they'll say,
16 "You're a bunch of bums."
17 So, we go through legislation as a meeting
18 place of ideas, a meeting place of concepts, trying
19 to figure out what's going to make things work the
20 best.
21 And sometimes we do, and sometimes we don't.
22 It's almost a decade ago that we passed the
23 legislation on Naloxone for the emergency medical
24 services, but I had no idea how effective it was,
25 until we heard some of the statistics from Suffolk,
89 1 and how many lives were saved.
2 And the next thing that started to become as
3 a phenomenon was the opioid drugs.
4 The simple statistic: In 10 years, by 2010,
5 New Yorkers were getting 21 million prescriptions a
6 year for opioid drugs.
7 21 million, without refills. And we only
8 have 19 1/2 million New Yorkers.
9 So, obviously -- and this was all a
10 phenomenon in the first decade of this century. It
11 really wasn't there in the 1990s.
12 And I can say that, because we did some work
13 on treatment of patients, and the attitude of
14 doctors towards treating patients with pain-relief
15 medicines.
16 So, we had to deal with this in a way, with
17 tracking who was prescribing, tracking who was
18 using, tracking who was dispensing. Trying to do it
19 as rapidly as possible, as accurately as possible.
20 Changing prescribing behavior patterns of
21 physicians. Mandating that, in a physician's
22 office, before a controlled substance was
23 prescribed, there had to be checking the database.
24 Same thing within the pharmacies.
25 We had a lot of things of behaviors to
90 1 change. And it took a large amount of cooperation
2 all over the place.
3 We really didn't have any villains to do it,
4 but it was a question of saying: Wait a minute,
5 opioids are not addictive-free.
6 And I started asking some of the doctors:
7 I bet you were sold by people from the pharmacy
8 companies, that you can prescribe this because
9 there's no downside.
10 And they started to say: Yeah, that's what
11 they came to us as.
12 I don't know that for a fact, but it was the
13 only reason to see this sharp escalation.
14 So, we passed I-STOP. It's about a year and
15 a half ago. We don't know how well it's working.
16 I'm told it's working fairly well, in terms
17 of tracking the doctor shopping.
18 Ironically, one of the parts that's not in
19 I-STOP was: How many pills do have you to prescribe
20 if you've had a tooth out?
21 Because now I start to hear, instead of
22 getting a month's supply of pain relief, you're
23 getting two or three or four days, which is
24 medically indicated as to what's appropriate.
25 So that's a behavior change that we're
91 1 starting to do; and, therefore, the medicine
2 cabinets, that Senator Marcellino spoke of, are
3 starting to decrease in being the source of supply.
4 And, obviously, we now have a problem with
5 heroin. And it started just before we did I-STOP.
6 I remember being in Massapequa, with the
7 Yes community group, and hearing this, and it was
8 just phenomenal. And then it started to replicate
9 itself as we had hearings in the rest of the state.
10 So we will, this week, next week, two weeks
11 from now, broaden the availability of Naloxone.
12 It's passed in the Senate already.
13 Yesterday it was reported out of the
14 Health Committee in the Assembly.
15 We'll be back in session in about two weeks.
16 And, hopefully, that will be worthwhile, so
17 that, if you're in a family and you have a concern,
18 because you have, one of your children or of your
19 siblings is susceptible, is an addict, or whatever,
20 you'll be able to have it in your house.
21 And the FDA, just the other day, talked about
22 an EpiPen type of thing that you can have. Fairly
23 safe. I don't know if it's safer, or not, than the
24 inhalant that you can now use, but it allows for a
25 broader use.
92 1 We expect to talk to the commissioner, which
2 groups are active in the drug-addiction prevention
3 programs, whether they can have that, 'cause this
4 will be allowed for the non-prescriptive use,
5 non-patient prescriptive use, of this drug.
6 In another sense: The legislation allows,
7 but the regulations do not yet, perhaps this will be
8 available through the pharmacies.
9 Obviously, a challenge to the pharmacies, but
10 this is not a drug -- as far as I know, and I'm
11 assured by Dr. Reynolds is the case -- this is not a
12 drug that leads to addiction, leads to a street
13 value, leads to some type of high.
14 We'll find out.
15 That's exactly what was said 40 years ago
16 about methadone.
17 To some extent, methadone, at the beginning,
18 had to be done, take your dose in front of the
19 doctor or nurse.
20 Now it's prescribed, and it allows many
21 people to lead very productive lives, and we don't
22 even know about it.
23 What's the next thing?
24 And by the way, as we were doing I-STOP, it
25 was -- this is what government can do for you -- it
93 1 occurred to me: We can have the best I-STOP
2 legislation in the world, but we're not going to
3 stop addiction.
4 So, we still have to keep -- that's a
5 continuing goal for all of us.
6 And when you do legislation, it's like
7 dropping a pebble into a still pond. There are
8 ripples, and you don't know what those ripples start
9 to show.
10 You'll find out.
11 You'll find out through roundtables like
12 this, because we don't -- we're not testifying at
13 each other. We're trying to compare notes, we're
14 trying find out things that are working.
15 Mr. Dolan up there, in his biography, says
16 he's involved with a health home.
17 One of the things we've started to do in this
18 state is to remove silos, and to not just look at
19 substance abuse as one silo, or even drug addiction
20 and alcohol as two silos. We're not looking at
21 mental health as just one silo, physical health
22 another silo.
23 We're trying to make a care coordination, and
24 it's very difficult to do.
25 I don't know that it's ever been totally
94 1 successful in the United States, but we're doing it
2 through the vehicle of managed care.
3 So, what, is that going to work?
4 We put $120 million in the budget for the
5 various social community-based treatment modalities,
6 that will be these health homes, be a medical home.
7 Try to say that the locus of treatment shall be in
8 the community.
9 Is it all there yet? No, but the State's
10 been moving on that in a large way.
11 So, we'll focus on having Naloxone more
12 widely available.
13 What will be a more lasting effect, will be
14 how we continue to treat those of us who we love so
15 much, in the community, a continuous treatment.
16 Are we going to face, "I don't have any space
17 in this treatment program"? "I don't have any
18 beds"?
19 I don't know all of that, but we certainly
20 are set in motion the approach to try to do that.
21 Now, when it comes to the next piece of
22 legislation that I have, is, get the insurance
23 companies to cover treatment.
24 Okay, we --
25 [Applause.]
95 1 SENATOR HANNON: -- we can all beat up on the
2 insurance companies, but, they are us, because we
3 pay them.
4 And, ironically, the -- most of managed care
5 tends to use an insurance company.
6 And how do you get them to behave right?
7 It's groups like this who will start to say:
8 What's the best treatment modality? What is
9 evidence-based? What can we really push to get to
10 work?
11 And that, hopefully, will come out of the
12 Task Force report.
13 Senator Boyle, you have an awesome calendar
14 to do this report by the 1st of June, because that
15 only leaves us 2 1/2 weeks before the end of
16 session.
17 But that's the type of thing we'd like to get
18 done, try to move forward.
19 Just getting the insurance coverage doesn't
20 always solve the problem.
21 This morning I'm reading in my BlackBerry
22 here, all the things we're doing in health, but
23 there was a story in the Rochester paper, where the
24 Attorney General just fined an insurance company who
25 was not giving availability to mental-health
96 1 treatment, according to what we've done in federal
2 and state law.
3 Was not.
4 They just got fined $350,000.
5 That's a big deal in the insurance world.
6 So, just passing the statute, saying, mental
7 health gets equal treatment with physical health,
8 didn't solve the problem.
9 I remember a couple of years ago, the
10 chiropractors who got mandatory coverage about
11 10 years ago, 5 years in, they came into my office
12 one day and they were screaming.
13 Now, I had nothing to do with the original
14 bill.
15 But they said: The insurance companies have
16 made us write notes on all of our treatments, and
17 make reports on all of our treatments, and show that
18 what we're doing is effective.
19 I said: Well, that's kind of logical.
20 But, they were not happy about what the
21 changes had been.
22 So we need to figure out -- we need to take
23 the people who are providers in this panel, we need
24 to take other providers in the state, we need to
25 look nationally -- to see what's working.
97 1 Is it going to be nine months? I don't know.
2 Sometimes we've had some testimony from
3 folks, who, their only reason they got off, was
4 because they were thrown in jail for two months.
5 That's a terrible way to go about it, because
6 withdrawal is excruciatingly difficult and doesn't
7 always lead to success.
8 So we have a continuing obligation.
9 And, your input, your feedback, will be
10 totally welcomed.
11 And I hope that we can, from today, and the
12 other hearings, have some very solid, productive
13 proposals, to move forward.
14 Thank you.
15 [Applause.]
16 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you, Senator Hannon.
17 I just want to take the opportunity to
18 recognize two other officials, representatives, that
19 are here with us today.
20 We have Suffolk County Legislator Tom Cilmi,
21 who's here.
22 Tom, thanks for joining us.
23 [Applause.]
24 SENATOR MARTINS: As well as a representative
25 from Senator David Carlucci's Office, Evan Sullivan,
98 1 the Senator's Deputy Chief of Staff.
2 [Applause.]
3 SENATOR MARTINS: So let's get at it.
4 I've appreciated the comments, I appreciate
5 the insight, but let's get into a Q&A.
6 I'm going to ask that we keep our responses,
7 now, to 30 seconds, and there's a reason for that.
8 I know that we have questions. I have
9 questions that have been handed up already.
10 Bear with me. I want to get as many of these
11 in as we can.
12 And we're quickly approaching an hour where
13 we're supposed to take a break.
14 I'm going to take executive privilege and
15 extend it, so that we do get into these topics more
16 wholly, but I do want to have an opportunity,
17 certainly, to have more questions come up from the
18 audience, and be able to get to as many of our
19 panelists as we can.
20 And to start our discussion, which we'll
21 break down:
22 The first group having to do with civic
23 groups, I have a question for Judith Raimondi.
24 Let's begin with an important aspect of
25 combating this heroin epidemic; and that is, the
99 1 local community groups which are working diligently
2 to rid our towns of these harmful drugs.
3 As the president of Lindy Cares, can you give
4 us idea of the problem your town is facing, and some
5 of the steps you are taking to fix it.
6 JUDITH RAIMONDI: Sure, thank you.
7 Lindy Cares has been totally about a
8 community partnering up with all areas.
9 What we found so far, through different
10 activities, we have a heroin epidemic.
11 We have a -- parents allowing children to
12 drink under age.
13 We have not enough police in our area.
14 We have a school district that needs support,
15 and they're willing. That we have a lot of willing
16 people within our district, willing to start to look
17 at this problem.
18 So, Lindy Cares came together, invited
19 Phil Boyle; our mayor, Kevin McCaffrey.
20 We've worked with the superintendent and
21 business owners, to try to come together and talk
22 about prevention and education.
23 So, we hold forums, from parent-prevention
24 forums.
25 Kym Laube was there, and she was able to --
100 1 she was really informative.
2 But, looking at signs and symptoms, we just
3 had our first Narcan training. Totally, you know,
4 important stuff for a community to have access to.
5 You know, the possibilities are endless, but
6 it really is important that partnering up, and the
7 community members coming forward and saying,
8 "I'm willing to help."
9 Currently, we have, like, five strong board
10 members that are just so dedicated to this
11 community.
12 And, we have a lot of -- we're working on
13 neighborhood watches. That was another really
14 important thing: our community wants more safety
15 within the community.
16 So, we're developing neighborhood watches on
17 different blocks.
18 SENATOR MARTINS: Well, I appreciate that.
19 You know, one of the themes that we heard,
20 not only from Shanna and from Jason, but from others
21 as we went through the panelists today, was, there
22 are introductions to drug abuse. There are entrees
23 to that in our communities.
24 And sometimes it starts with our own
25 attitudes at home as to what is permissible; whether
101 1 it's alcohol, whether it's marijuana, that there are
2 entrees into this, that sometimes we take for
3 granted. And that by being lax at the front end,
4 sometimes we're opening a doorway for things to
5 happen down the road.
6 Dr. Reynolds, I was wondering if you could
7 share some of your thoughts about, you know, the
8 concept of, you know, a lot of things that we're
9 hearing these days, specifically with regard to
10 marijuana around the country. You know, loosening
11 regulations and laws having to do with marijuana
12 use, and what that may have to do with longer-term
13 situations and drug abuse and addiction like this.
14 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: Thanks for the
15 question.
16 You know, when we use words like "epidemic"
17 and "crisis," and we talk about opiates, and we talk
18 about heroin, I think it makes it easier for
19 parents, school districts, maybe even some of us, to
20 say, heroin and opiates are the serious stuff, and
21 alcohol and marijuana are somehow less serious in
22 this context.
23 And I think, for parents, any of us who work
24 with parents on a regular basis, hear time and time
25 again: I know he's drinking. I know he smokes pot
102 1 a lot. Thank God it's not heroin.
2 And I think part of what we need to do out of
3 this crisis, is begin to connect some of the dots;
4 to talk about underage drinking, marijuana use, and
5 what that means to -- to kind of the future.
6 I think the discussions around marijuana have
7 left young people with a sense that marijuana use is
8 not risky.
9 In fact, our own President suggests that it's
10 safer to smoke a joint than it is to drink a beer.
11 Those are the kind of conversations we're
12 having, and it works against everything we're trying
13 to do to educate our young people.
14 So, there's a direct connection.
15 I hope we can broaden the conversation and
16 talk about alcohol and marijuana use, and certainly
17 understand the impact that some of these policy
18 debates are having on young people and families.
19 SENATOR MARTINS: No, I appreciate that. And
20 I know we will get into that. There's a topic
21 further along in the day, where we'll be talking
22 about treatment recovery and prevention, and we can
23 get into this more specifically.
24 But, there is a common theme, not only in,
25 you know, the discussion we just had, but, the
103 1 insight that we got earlier, is that very few people
2 start by starting heroin, for the first time. There
3 are usually entrées into illegal drug use and
4 addiction that takes a different path.
5 And the attitudes we take as a society
6 earlier on, certainly have ramifications down the
7 road.
8 I have a question here -- or a point here,
9 that was handed up from a King's Park organization,
10 In The Know. "Kings Park In The Know."
11 And there's a representative here,
12 Maureen Rossi [ph.]?
13 MAUREEN ROSSI [ph.]: Yes. [Inaudible.]
14 SENATOR MARTINS: Well, do me a favor, come
15 on up.
16 MAUREEN ROSSI [ph.]: Okay.
17 SENATOR MARTINS: There's a microphone right
18 here.
19 And, another civic group that is working
20 locally in the community to address the issue.
21 And, I apologize. I would have brought the
22 mic to you.
23 MAUREEN ROSSI [ph.]: That's all right.
24 I just had my knee replaced. I'm sorry.
25 SENATOR MARTINS: No, no. Thank you.
104 1 MAUREEN ROSSI [ph.]: This is a challenge.
2 Hey, guys, thank you all for being here
3 today.
4 We've been on the front line for about
5 9 years now. We're just a small non-profit, and, we
6 work to shine a light on, and eradicate, the
7 region's opiate and heroin epidemic.
8 There are a lot of great points brought out
9 today, and, there is a threefold approach to this
10 problem, and you guys have reiterated it:
11 Law enforcement, arrest the dealers;
12 Treatment. You know, let's get rid of
13 obstacles to treatment. Let's get the sick kids
14 help;
15 And, prevention.
16 But, like everyone's saying, we cannot arrest
17 our way out of this epidemic, and we cannot
18 legislate our way out of this epidemic.
19 Prevention, prevention, prevention.
20 There is no coincidence that we have this
21 epidemic on Long Island. It's been 12 years since
22 we've have had prevention programs in our school
23 districts.
24 DARE was deemed ineffective about -- I think
25 it was about 12 years ago.
105 1 And there's no coincidence that our kids have
2 gone without prevention programs and we find
3 ourselves in this crisis.
4 I'm also a member of the press, so I've
5 interviewed some of you guys.
6 As a journalist, I knew we were in tough
7 shape, because I would read -- every day I would
8 read the crime and the obits.
9 And every day there would be, you know,
10 Brittany, 19, Sayville. You know, Brandon,
11 Massapequa.
12 Kids dying, quietly, on our tree-lined
13 streets in our well-performing school districts.
14 It was Long Island's dirty little the secret
15 for a long time, but the secret's out.
16 You know, we all obviously know, like you
17 guys said, we're in the midst of a crisis.
18 In the last decade, since we've kind of begun
19 this, depending on what numbers you have, you know,
20 opiate, opiate combined with heroin, we've lost
21 between two and three hundred young people under the
22 age of 25 every year. So in the last decade, we've
23 lost over 2,000 young people.
24 If someone came to Long Island and murdered
25 2,000 of our young people, it would be hunting
106 1 season. There would be vigilante groups in every
2 community.
3 Well, someone did come in and murder our
4 children.
5 And, you know, this is great, we love that
6 you guys are here.
7 And John Flanagan left, and it's too bad.
8 John and I produced a documentary about the
9 heroin epidemic a couple years ago.
10 And what I want to see happen here on
11 Long Island, and New York State, we need to
12 "Common Core" this bad boy.
13 [Applause.]
14 MAUREEN ROSSI [ph.]: You know?
15 I know it's kind of a dirty word for
16 John Flanagan, but, the fervor, I mean, when
17 Common Core came out, I mean, the Facebook pages,
18 the tweets, the social media, parents rising up in
19 every community.
20 We need to "Common Core" this bad boy.
21 Thank you.
22 [Applause.]
23 SENATOR MARTINS: Kym, what do you think?
24 KYM LAUBE: So, I love the opportunity to
25 talk about prevention, love the opportunity to talk
107 1 about how we need to get this in schools, and how we
2 really need to move this into families.
3 And, your coalitions -- King's Park In The
4 Know, Lindy Cares, West Hampton Coalition,
5 Sag Harbor -- the coalitions really become a major
6 player in getting us to do this.
7 You know, some of our states to the east --
8 uh, to the west of us have a prevention provider in
9 every school.
10 I can't tell you how paramount that is.
11 Our prevention staff as a state is down. Our
12 youth-development staff and our youth bureaus are
13 getting smaller and smaller and it's getting more
14 difficult.
15 As much as we want to say we want to get into
16 schools, because we know that needs to happen, it's
17 hard to get through those doors now, and hard to
18 connect this type of education into the current
19 educational system, and where it is.
20 So that's where we really need to make our
21 voices louder, and we need to do exactly what
22 Maureen talked about. We need to fight this fight
23 harder and louder and stronger, and not back off of
24 it.
25 Common Core brought tremendous parents out.
108 1 There's a lot of different issues that have
2 brought parents out fighting and arguing; and this
3 is one we need to get behind.
4 And my hope is, the continued dialogue, good,
5 clear, accurate information. The strengthening of
6 the forces is really gonna be what is gonna help us
7 turn this corner.
8 Drug and alcohol prevention, sound
9 prevention, is capacity building and workforce
10 development. Right?
11 This is not only good health practice, but
12 this is about our future.
13 And when we talk about keeping medication out
14 of our natural resource of our drinking water, let's
15 keep it out of our natural resource of our young
16 people, right, because that's where the answer and
17 that's where this lies.
18 [Applause.]
19 KYM LAUBE: Young people need -- they need
20 good strong adults. They need -- and my whole job
21 is about building young people who make a choice to
22 be drug- and alcohol-free before it's an issue for
23 them. Right?
24 That's what the basis of my work is.
25 So they need adults who help carry that
109 1 message right along there with them.
2 But, they need the peer-to-peer; so that when
3 you're sending young people from treatment programs
4 back into high school, there's already a group and a
5 network of young people who have made it cool, who
6 have made it trendy, who've made successful lives
7 out of being drug- and alcohol-free.
8 And we need more workers to help us get
9 there.
10 [Applause.]
11 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you.
12 What do you think?
13 RICHARD BUCKMAN: Am I working?
14 Okay.
15 I actually am at work.
16 I just want to add something to what Kym
17 said, because some of you are familiar with recovery
18 high schools --
19 [Applause.]
20 RICHARD BUCKMAN: -- that's sort of sprouting
21 up across the country a little bit.
22 In the movie "The Anonymous People," which,
23 if you haven't seen yet --
24 [Applause.]
25 RICHARD BUCKMAN: -- who's seen it? Anybody?
110 1 Okay.
2 [Applause.]
3 RICHARD BUCKMAN: -- I would encourage our
4 distinguished panelists to make sure they catch a
5 screening of "The Anonymous People." We'd certainly
6 be more than glad to arrange one for them, as well.
7 Recovery high schools, there's a few in
8 Boston, and the impact that they're having breaks
9 out statistically, this way:
10 If a young person in high school goes to
11 treatment, and returns to the same high school they
12 came from, 90 percent of those kids will relapse,
13 and 80 percent of them will relapse within less than
14 30 days.
15 If they go to a recovery high school, the
16 attendance is over 90 percent, and more than
17 70 percent of them graduate, clean and sober.
18 I think that says a lot about recovery
19 high schools.
20 [Applause.]
21 SENATOR MARTINS: I appreciate that.
22 That -- that's a perfect segue, as we address
23 this issue. I think it's important that we go to
24 those who are most affected and can speak to it
25 personally.
111 1 I'm going to ask Mr. and Mrs. Murr: Can you
2 tell us more about the parent group you're in. And,
3 any tips for parents who are currently struggling
4 with a child who is addicted to opioids?
5 DENISE MURR: Well, okay, when we lost
6 Matthew, we found a parental bereavement group,
7 The Compassionate Friends. It's national.
8 We went to the one on Long Island. And,
9 through going there, of course, you know, children
10 lost their lives to various reasons, but we
11 formed -- a group of us formed a group from children
12 that had -- of children that had passed from
13 overdoses.
14 We've been trying to make change.
15 We've gone to the "Fed Up" rally last
16 October, which was for federal recognition of the
17 epidemic of the opioid epidemic.
18 We've gone to Harm Reduction Coalition; we
19 spoke there.
20 I'm trying to think.
21 We've visited sober homes. We're about to
22 visit another sober home this coming month. Have
23 spoken to young men and women in recovery.
24 I'm trying to think of what else.
25 ARTHUR MURR: What you need to do is talk to
112 1 your kids. You need to -- they may not talk to you.
2 Or, they're talking to you and you're just not
3 hearing it.
4 Matt was famous for asking us a question, and
5 we'd sit there and we'd listen, and we'd give him an
6 answer, and then he'd walk away, and we'd go, What
7 was he just saying?
8 Because he was asking -- there was the
9 question he was asking, there was the question he
10 wanted the answer to, which was not necessarily the
11 same thing.
12 I'm not saying we were good at it. I'm just
13 saying that we were acutely aware that we had to do
14 that. That you had to do what you had to.
15 Listen to your kids, because lots of times
16 they're testing you.
17 We were tested all the time.
18 He was asking a question to see, Was this
19 good? Was this not good?
20 He used to have a conversation with me about
21 pot, and say: Dad, it's not bad. It's okay.
22 I said: If it was so good -- and I can't
23 believe I'm about to say this.
24 I said: Well, if it was so good, it would be
25 legal, and they'd be making millions of dollars off
113 1 it on tax revenue.
2 DENISE MURR: Yeah.
3 [Laughter.]
4 ARTHUR MURR: It's the truth.
5 I mean, you know, he -- and he kind of
6 stopped, and he looked, and he was like: Oh, okay,
7 okay.
8 I ask you all to look at Colorado, okay, and
9 see what's going on in Colorado.
10 You know, with the comments of: You know,
11 marijuana, it's not as bad as alcohol.
12 Okay, I'm not an advocate of -- you know, of
13 drinking. Whatever you decide to do, I mean,
14 I understand.
15 When you have a glass of wine, when you have
16 a beer, when you have a drink, and you're not having
17 something to excess, are you doing that to get high,
18 or are you doing that because you, either, like it,
19 it goes with your meal?
20 What's the point of smoking a joint?
21 There is only one point: it's to get high.
22 It's not because, Hey, you know, I really
23 like this menthol flavor of this.
24 That's not what's happening here.
25 You gotta think about it.
114 1 You know, listen to your kids.
2 I'm not saying it's always gonna to work.
3 I'm just saying to you, you have to listen,
4 and you have to keep on them, all the time.
5 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you.
6 We have a few questions.
7 The first one is from Liz Barardi [ph.] from
8 SafeSoberLiving.org.
9 Liz?
10 Would you like to pose the question, or would
11 you like me to read it for you?
12 LIZ BARARDI [ph.]: [Unintelligible.]
13 SENATOR MARTINS: Come on up.
14 LIZ BARARDI [ph.]: My name is Liz Barardi,
15 and my youngest son, Carter, died of a heroin
16 overdose January 12th.
17 And what I have not heard anybody discuss
18 today -- I did hear you just mention sober homes.
19 He was in treatment.
20 He was denied treatment twice by his
21 insurance company, MVP, but I put him in treatment.
22 He went willingly.
23 But, in his honor, we formed Safe Sober
24 Living to help other people.
25 And what I haven't heard anybody talk about,
115 1 the long term. This is a lifelong disease.
2 According to Cozet [ph.] Colombia, 50 to
3 75 percent of it is genetics, and it is
4 multifaceted.
5 And I'm just wondering, in this very piece of
6 the puzzle that we're dealing with, what about
7 regulations for sober homes? Because there are
8 none.
9 [Applause.]
10 SENATOR MARTINS: Anthony, what do you say?
11 ANTHONY RIZZUTO: Well, I definitely agree
12 with what you're saying in terms of, this is not
13 something, that a person goes to a 28-day program,
14 or this -- you know, most of the people that we see
15 that come into addiction have been addicted for a
16 while, and it's not a quick fix.
17 Sober homes, I'll tell you, when I first came
18 into this field, I was actually opposed to them,
19 because I saw them, the stigma, you know, going back
20 to stigma, when I close my eyes and I thought about
21 sober homes, prior to getting into this field, was
22 roach-infested, filthy, people shooting up in the
23 bathroom.
24 That was my understanding, having no
25 knowledge about them; just the stigma that was
116 1 associated with it.
2 I came in and started working in the field,
3 and I was running men's day treatment. And a lot of
4 the people that were in men's day treatment were in
5 sober homes. And I started realizing the benefit
6 that sober homes was having on some of the folks in
7 there.
8 And then I went out and saw them. And, you
9 know, Seafield happens to have a pretty good array
10 of sober homes, but there aren't a lot of -- if you
11 look on Long Island, we've actually --
12 Legislator Browning has put together a "sober home"
13 oversight board, because there was no oversight.
14 And when there's no oversight, unfortunately, some
15 people look at it as a means to be able to make
16 money.
17 So what I can tell you today, 12 years later,
18 I can tell you that I am a big believer in the
19 benefits of recovery homes -- I like to call them
20 "recovery homes" -- if they're done right.
21 So if there is a certain set of guidelines
22 and criteria, it can be a very, very useful tool in
23 the continuum of the help that we try to give
24 people, especially like some of the folks I've
25 talked about.
117 1 If you take them and put them back in the
2 same environment where the problem started, where
3 the dealer is down the block, you know, and having
4 the access. So you have cravings, and you,
5 literally, got to go across the street.
6 Here's what I've seen in terms of the
7 recovery homes:
8 First of all, some of them are really bad.
9 Okay, so that's one concern.
10 And, I'm sure that my friend Kelly over here
11 can speak to that.
12 Some of the homes are really bad because
13 there has been no oversight.
14 The other issue that we find, is that we find
15 that when people come into sober homes, if the house
16 is being run right, there is support, there is
17 structure, there's curfews. They have to go to a
18 certain amount of meetings. They have to be
19 involved in treatment. There's testing being done.
20 Not everybody is willing to do that.
21 And then there is the person who takes
22 advantage of the person in recovery, knowing that
23 they have burned their bridges and need a place to
24 live, and they put six people in a room, you know,
25 and they're a slum lord.
118 1 So, unfortunately, we have to be able to
2 distinguish them, but I absolutely, no doubt, am a
3 big supporter, and believe that recovery homes, if
4 they are done right, are an essential part of the
5 continuum, especially with the fact that people are
6 getting limited amount of time in treatment.
7 So, the 28-day model is kind of like going
8 out the window. It's rare when you hear somebody,
9 from an insurance company, be able to get 28 days.
10 So we're talking, average days, 10 to
11 14 days.
12 I have people that are getting three or
13 four days.
14 So a perfect fit for that, sometimes, if
15 there is no way to extend them, would be an
16 intensive outpatient program, five days a week,
17 three hours a day, in addition to living in a
18 structured environment where there is a house
19 manager, there is testing that is able to be done if
20 there's any suspicion, and they're working towards
21 sustaining long-term recovery.
22 [Applause.]
23 SENATOR MARTINS: Our next question, and
24 forgive me, I believe it's Angie Rurie [ph.].
25 Would you like --
119 1 Thank you, Angie.
2 ANGIE RURIE [ph.]: Hi, I'm Ange Rurie, and
3 I'm the proud mother of Peter, who passed away
4 three -- well, it will 40 months ago, from a heroin
5 overdose.
6 While he was alive, I would tell him
7 privately how proud I was of him, and how hard he
8 was fighting to obtain sobriety and maintain
9 sobriety.
10 Unfortunately, although he had said, "Ma, you
11 can tell anyone, I don't care," I chose not to.
12 So what message was I giving him, really?
13 Was I proud?
14 So my big question is, how we can get rid of
15 the shame, blame, and stigma.
16 It saddens me to see, while we're in the
17 midst of an epidemic, all these empty seats.
18 Any other disease, there'd be standing room
19 only.
20 I don't believe our government can help us
21 completely get out of this epidemic.
22 I believe we need to get rid of that shame so
23 that there would be more people. I think we'd have
24 a lot more resources. There would be a lot more
25 people advocating. I think there would be a lot
120 1 more private funds being raised.
2 It doesn't just hit poor people. There are a
3 lot of hospitals with wings named proudly after
4 people.
5 That's not happening for the rehabs.
6 And I just would like to -- I know prevention
7 is a big part of it.
8 I heard Friday that Long Island is proud to
9 have a program in the schools called "Too Good For
10 Drugs."
11 It made me feel -- I've learned to really
12 listen to my feelings, and it made me feel really
13 bad.
14 My son Peter was not bad.
15 It made me think about a 7-year-old possibly
16 hearing those words, and having a father that served
17 our country and came back with PTSD, that's now
18 self-medicating.
19 Is that little boy gonna think his dad is
20 bad?
21 Is he going to think he's bad?
22 Is he going to resent his dad?
23 What about the high-schooler who thinks he
24 may have a problem, and they're being taught you're
25 too good for drugs?
121 1 Is he going to ask for help?
2 What are his friends going to think?
3 I understand the other side of it, but I want
4 you to hear how, as a parent, whose son fought very
5 hard for recovery, how it made me feel to hear
6 those.
7 So I just wish you would consider that.
8 I also, just in closing, would like to read,
9 one of my friends has a 20-year-old son in recovery,
10 and he posted this on Facebook the other day.
11 "Prayers go out to an old classmate of mine
12 tonight. If the prayers can give you even a moment
13 of relief, it would bring me joy.
14 "In such a dark, lonely spot, love and
15 compassion from others can make all the difference.
16 "I've also seen how judgment towards others
17 can be such an ignorant act.
18 "How can one judge another man if one's never
19 walked in their shoes?
20 "How, even more so, does it make you feel
21 better about yourself?
22 "Does hate and negativity improve your life
23 and attitude in any way?
24 "I myself am grateful I have gotten myself
25 out of a similar hole, and learned some principles
122 1 along the way.
2 "Hate should have no place in the heart."
3 Thank you.
4 [Applause.]
5 SENATOR MARTINS: Angie, thank you. Thank
6 you very much.
7 And, I don't think anybody up here could have
8 said it anymore eloquently.
9 Thank you very much for sharing.
10 Steve, what do you think?
11 You know, the stigma, the shame, that comes
12 with it, I mean, we've talked about different
13 aspects of that already today.
14 We talked about education. We talk about
15 civic groups. We talk about pulling back the veil
16 that oftentimes hides, you know, the fact that this
17 is much more prevalent than I think many of us wish
18 to accept.
19 What more should we be doing about this?
20 STEVE MARGOLIES: Well, I think part of this
21 also has to do with where we -- I mean, let me take
22 that back.
23 One of the things we need to do is look at
24 this, really, as a disease with a treatment, and
25 remove all the obstacles that we can in any way we
123 1 can.
2 We talk -- we heard earlier about talking
3 about educating medical providers, to start
4 screening for substance abuse and start treating
5 earlier.
6 We've talked about schools.
7 So I think the more you look at it as a
8 disease that needs to be treated, just like
9 diabetes, just like high blood pressure, the more
10 stigma can be removed from this.
11 It's a very difficult thing. People have
12 very fixed ideas, and it takes a lot of education
13 and a lot of time. But I think the more prevalent
14 treatment becomes in everyday lives, the less stigma
15 there would be.
16 If I had my choice, I would bring treatment
17 into primary-care clinics, I would bring treatment
18 into hospitals, I would bring it into schools, where
19 people that come in for every other aspect of their
20 health, also have this -- have addiction as part of
21 something they're screened for, and possibly treated
22 for, so it becomes routinized; it becomes a routine
23 thing.
24 SENATOR MARTINS: I appreciate that; and that
25 leads us into a natural segue to a further topic,
124 1 having to do with education, and the place education
2 has.
3 And I'll pose this question to Dr. Ring.
4 Doctor, you know, there's been a lot going on
5 in the education system lately, but one thing that
6 may be underaddressed is having drug-awareness
7 programs in schools.
8 Can you speak to what is being done, and what
9 can be done, to bring awareness into the classroom?
10 DR. MICHAEL F. RING: Sure.
11 As I said earlier, at Rocky Point we start
12 with kindergarten.
13 We start with kindergarten in terms of
14 education, but we also start at that level with
15 intervention.
16 And we know -- we're very confident that none
17 of our kindergarteners are involved with heroin. We
18 just know people around them are, and that it's
19 impacting them in different ways, and may cause them
20 to be the next person to be involved.
21 So, we handle it directly, with the support
22 and intervention with those students.
23 We handle it, really, what is an indirect
24 approach, with the general education. And that's a
25 tough one.
125 1 And as an educator, I often say, that can be,
2 at times, our least effective method, particularly
3 if you go down that old road, as was said earlier,
4 of putting a thousand people in an auditorium and
5 talking at them.
6 The difference, it was mentioned before --
7 and now that the words "Common Core" have been used,
8 I can use them freely here without fear -- but, it
9 was mentioned about the Common Core, and we need to
10 "Common Core" this.
11 It was mentioned about the number of people
12 in this auditorium, and it's true: If this were the
13 heroin and opioid and Common Core forum, we'd have
14 to have it in Yankee Stadium.
15 And the only difference, we have a lot of
16 people here who are directly involved in the battle,
17 and we have a lot of parents here who have been
18 directly impacted.
19 The only difference between those parents and
20 every other parent, is it hasn't happened to those
21 other parents, yet.
22 It hasn't happened to my child, yet. It
23 hasn't happened to their children, yet.
24 They see Common Core and the testing as a
25 very real threat to their children.
126 1 I don't know of anyone who's died from that
2 yet. I don't know of any child whose future has
3 been ruined over that yet.
4 I know plenty of kids in my own district, and
5 families, that have been.
6 We need to get that level of education out.
7 We recently partnered with the
8 county executive on what is a small measure, but
9 it's a start --
10 And as I said, building bridges is key for
11 me. I'll take any opportunity.
12 -- and that's creating a small PSA (public
13 service announcement); a video.
14 And when we got together last December to
15 discuss the theme of it, some people wanted to talk
16 at the kids.
17 And I said: If we're to going do just this
18 one, we need to talk directly to the parents.
19 Parents have the greatest influence in the
20 lives of their children. They are the true front
21 line.
22 We need to talk to the parents. The parents
23 need to believe that this can happen, and it will
24 happen.
25 And we have people in this room who have
127 1 testified to that, and who will.
2 So, our education needs to go beyond our
3 walls.
4 And when we deal with it within our walls and
5 directly with our kids, it has to be real to them as
6 well.
7 It can't be: Well, I'm gonna go to the
8 auditorium and sleep for the next 42 minutes, and,
9 the administrator gets to check off a box that I did
10 this thing; and, therefore, I did the right thing by
11 my community.
12 [Applause.]
13 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you.
14 I have a question by E. Skoyan [ph.].
15 ELIZABETH SKOYAN [ph.]: That would be me.
16 SENATOR MARTINS: Ma'am.
17 ELIZABETH SKOYAN [ph.]: I'm not used to
18 this. I taught high school for 28 years, and never
19 used a microphone. You know, I have a cane.
20 [Laughter.]
21 ELIZABETH SKOYAN [ph.]: My name is
22 Elizabeth Skoyan. Not many people know that. I go
23 by "E." It's a nom de plume.
24 I recently retired from teaching high school
25 on Long Island for 28 years.
128 1 I also was an administrator for at-risk
2 intervention services, a mandate that's not funded,
3 as many mandates are from this State.
4 No disrespect to Senator Flanagan.
5 My experience is professional and personal.
6 The first thing I want to say is, in school
7 we have a thing called "Sum It Up." And that way,
8 the kid has to write what they learned that day in
9 class, and they sum it up.
10 And if I summed up what we've discussed so
11 far, I would say we're preaching to the choir here;
12 that I don't think there's one person here that
13 doesn't disagree with anything anybody has said.
14 And we all know that the problem, I believe,
15 is that the voice is not being heard at the level it
16 needs to be heard.
17 And, I grew up in the '60s. And they say,
18 "If you remember the '60s, you weren't there."
19 And that was true for me.
20 [Laughter.]
21 ELIZABETH SKOYAN [ph.]: I became a diabetic
22 at the age of 11, back in the day of the Dark Ages.
23 At the age of 12, I picked up narcotics,
24 opiates. And at 15, I detoxed from heroin in a jail
25 cell.
129 1 This was back in the '60s. And, I don't
2 know if it was the times, but my parents had me a
3 ward of the State, and I was put away for two years
4 in what would now be considered a residential rehab.
5 My father was a judge. Imagine the
6 embarrassment. But, my parents loved me enough.
7 And, I got out of that program at 18 and
8 I said: Wow, that didn't work too well for me.
9 And, I never graduated high school.
10 I was a journalist.
11 I don't know how it happened, but I ended up
12 a high school teacher.
13 And there's one thing I know, and that's,
14 I know the Sweat Hogs.
15 I know the Sweat Hogs. I was one, and
16 I became a teacher of them.
17 And, I taught in a maximum-security prison
18 for convicted felons, 14 to 18, in Oakland,
19 Alameda County. That was my first teaching job.
20 And, education in California is mandated to
21 18, so it really doesn't matter.
22 But would I say, even back then in the
23 '70s, those kids that came off the streets, those
24 were the ones we thought of as the addicts.
25 They were the victims as well. And they
130 1 celebrate these dealers.
2 This one guy was shot on the corner. They
3 had a caisson, and, through the streets of Oakland,
4 and he was revered. And he was one of the biggest
5 dealers there was.
6 And we see that here on Long Island.
7 But to get to my comment, or my point,
8 regarding education:
9 I did go to an alternative program.
10 I eventually got a GED. And when I began teaching,
11 my empathy for those kids that didn't fit.
12 I didn't teach special ed. I taught at-risk
13 education.
14 And Dr. Dowling mentioned co-occurring
15 symptoms, where there might be some kind of a mental
16 illness, and then you find a drug, which is what
17 happened to me, and life was beautiful.
18 And, I saw a lot of that in my years in BOCES
19 and several other districts in Nassau.
20 But, I think Dr. Ring spoke to it as well,
21 that peer-to-peer, and Dr. Reynolds spoke to it,
22 peer-to-peer, in my personal experience and
23 professional experience, is pandamont [ph.] to
24 getting kids to open up.
25 It's not gonna cure -- there is no cure.
131 1 I've been in recovery since January 26, 1988.
2 I go to AA. I speak, I share my story,
3 because I don't -- my parents weren't ashamed to
4 help me. I'm not ashamed to help other people.
5 I've taken kids to AA.
6 [Applause.]
7 ELIZABETH SKOYAN [ph.]: It's humility. It's
8 nothing to be...
9 But the thing is, I started a SADD club every
10 high school I was in. And SADD is now "Students
11 Against Destructive Decisions."
12 I didn't do it by the text book. We did
13 stuff, like, we went down and went like crazy people
14 to the middle school, and took high-schoolers down
15 there, and did silly things.
16 And I didn't care if I was embarrassed. And
17 I think the kids felt like they weren't embarrassed.
18 Because those middle-schoolers would come up,
19 in ninth grade, and they have would have, something:
20 Gee, I remember those crazy SADD people came down.
21 It's not the total answer, but more programs
22 like that.
23 Like you said, somebody coming in and talking
24 about probation, and what's going to happen to you,
25 and, kind of --
132 1 SENATOR MARTINS: Yeah, we're not gonna
2 frighten our kids --
3 ELIZABETH SKOYAN [ph.]: No.
4 SENATOR MARTINS: -- by having a 42-minute
5 lecture on the cons of getting involved in this
6 discussion.
7 ELIZABETH SKOYAN [ph.]: I've seen those many
8 times, and the kids will be crying, and the
9 speaker's left.
10 SENATOR MARTINS: I agree with you.
11 So, and I'll give you one --
12 ELIZABETH SKOYAN [ph.]: But the peer review
13 is -- or peer -- peer, uh --
14 SENATOR MARTINS: Peer counseling is key.
15 The idea of integrating programs into a
16 school environment that is seamless. It's not once
17 every month, once every two months. It's part of
18 the everyday curriculum.
19 And it really is gonna take an overall
20 effort, like the effort that we had taken societally
21 to combat smoking, alcohol use.
22 I can tell you that, societally, my parents'
23 generation had one view when it came to these
24 things.
25 Our generation was far less tolerant.
133 1 And my kids are far tolerant because of the
2 environment that they get and the learning that they
3 get from school.
4 ELIZABETH SKOYAN [ph.]: Correct.
5 SENATOR MARTINS: And from society,
6 generally.
7 That's what it's going to take.
8 So your point is very well made.
9 Thank you very much.
10 ELIZABETH SKOYAN [ph.]: Start a rehab
11 school, I'll come out of retirement.
12 [Applause.]
13 SENATOR MARTINS: I have a question from
14 Miss Ramos [ph.]; Joanna Ramos.
15 Joanna, are you here?
16 Thank you.
17 JOANNA RAMOS [ph.]: I actually want to thank
18 all of you for doing this.
19 I'm a parent, at Smithtown schools.
20 And my issue is, that I am trying so hard to
21 get one of the evidence-based programs into our
22 school, and I'm getting resistance, not from the
23 parents, but from our school district.
24 I believe -- I have a high-schooler, I have a
25 college student, and a little one going into school.
134 1 I really strongly believe that early --
2 early, evidence-based programs are how to go,
3 especially with these children.
4 It's evidence.
5 It's evidence that our children need early
6 education on this epidemic.
7 I have a problem: I just need to get the
8 school board on board.
9 How can I do this?
10 Too Good For Drugs, HUGS...something,
11 anything, I'm desperate.
12 I'm a parent. I'm dealing with my children,
13 trying to educate them in the best way that I can.
14 I need help, and I'm asking for help.
15 Thank you.
16 [Applause.]
17 SENATOR MARTINS: Miss Ramos, thank you.
18 Dr. Reynolds, what do you say to that?
19 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: So, here's a story:
20 I'm also a Smithtown parent.
21 And three years ago, I went to
22 Smithtown School District and trotted out my fancy
23 credentials, and talked about LICADD and Too Good
24 For Drugs, and everything like that.
25 And the superintendent at the time, who
135 1 I grew to like very, very much, kind of looked and
2 said: Well, you know, maybe some parents might be
3 upset, that kind of thing, but it looked like we
4 might be going forward.
5 Parenthetically, I said: By the way,
6 I didn't mention, but I have a daughter in one of
7 your middle schools.
8 The red carpet appeared. Right?
9 [Laughter.]
10 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: Suddenly, I was no
11 longer the professional banging on the door, looking
12 for something, whatever else. I suddenly became the
13 parent with an interest in the district.
14 I will tell you that we lost a lot of
15 momentum after that superintendent left, but some of
16 the seeds we planted continue today.
17 But the main fear on the part of the
18 school -- and we did it in two out of three
19 middle schools -- the main concern, was that the
20 parents from those two middle schools would be upset
21 that we were doing those kind of programs, and
22 suggesting that, God forbid, Smithtown had a
23 substance-use problem.
24 Instead, the parents from the third school
25 that got left out, came to our announcements and
136 1 said: How come our kids aren't getting this?
2 So here's what I'd say to you:
3 The lesson here is, when parents ask for
4 things, and correct me if I'm wrong, they're more
5 likely to get them than someone who's perceived as
6 being an outside organization and coming and asking
7 for it.
8 The perception is, that parents don't want
9 these kind of programs in the schools.
10 If you go and ask for it, you make our job a
11 lot easier. And I think there are a number of
12 organizations that are ready, willing, and able to
13 help you carry this down the field.
14 Speak up as parents; ask for it.
15 [Applause.]
16 SENATOR MARTINS: And as another point on
17 that:
18 You know, members of your board of education
19 are elected. They campaign like everyone else.
20 And, when they are running for reelection, or
21 running for election, it is not out of the question
22 to ask them, "What is your position on"...fill in
23 the blank.
24 And if that topic is clearly important to
25 those of us who are here and many who will be
137 1 watching, that should be an important topic: How do
2 we address this issue? It is an issue. We know
3 it's there. We shouldn't hide from it.
4 And have those people who are in our
5 communities running as members of the board of
6 education, ask them where they stand on the issue
7 and make that part of the campaign, as well.
8 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: [Inaudible.]
9 SENATOR MARTINS: Give me just one second,
10 because no one is going to be able to hear you. It
11 is being recorded.
12 And, frankly, before I go to you, I did
13 promise that I would recognize someone else, but
14 I will come back to you, but we'll take you right
15 here at the mic.
16 I want to take an opportunity to recognize
17 Detective Pam Starr [ph.], who's here --
18 Detective?
19 [Applause.]
20 SENATOR MARTINS: -- who has been an
21 incredible advocate on this issue for years.
22 I remember, Pam, we discussing this issue --
23 DETECTIVE PAM STARR [ph.]: Minneola.
24 SENATOR MARTINS: -- Minneola, four, five,
25 six years ago, before anyone recognized openly that
138 1 we had an epidemic.
2 You were there, you were talking about it,
3 and you were leading the way.
4 Thanks for being here.
5 DETECTIVE PAM STARR [ph.]: Oh, thank you.
6 With regard to the Too Good For Drugs,
7 Nassau County, I just wanted to offer some
8 information to everybody in the audience.
9 Nassau County Police Department actually
10 worked with Dr. Reynolds --
11 And, I think you're one of the reasons why
12 I'm here today, Dr. Reynolds.
13 -- giving me a spot to be, pretty much, a
14 liaison between our department and the community.
15 And one of those avenues was education, where
16 they use asset-forfeiture money from drug seizures.
17 And, I was the one who was sent to be
18 certified as a Too Good For Drug trainer. And to
19 date, I did six 2-day trainings.
20 The first day is K through 8. The second day
21 is high school.
22 And once I certify a school district --
23 And we have 56 in Nassau County.
24 -- after I certify them, we then pay for the
25 curriculum to every school district in
139 1 Nassau County, at no charge, through the
2 asset-forfeiture funds.
3 That also goes to parochial schools,
4 private schools, as well.
5 So, we've been doing it.
6 And I heard you mention about the Too Good
7 For Drugs, and that it offended you.
8 You know what I would like to do?
9 I'd like to offer you to come to my next
10 training, so this way, you can get to know, because
11 I don't think that the title really represents the
12 goal.
13 ANGIE RURIE [ph.]: [Inaudible.]
14 DETECTIVE PAM STARR [ph.]: Well --
15 ANGIE RURIE [ph.]: [Inaudible.]
16 DETECTIVE PAM STARR [ph.]: Well, I promise
17 you, that's not how I feel, and it would be my
18 pleasure to --
19 ANGIE RURIE [ph.]: [Inaudible.]
20 DETECTIVE PAM STARR [ph.]: Well, let me just
21 explain something --
22 SENATOR MARTINS: I will add this, and
23 I think this is critically important: That we have
24 this dialogue and we understand that sometimes there
25 are unintended consequences to certain phrases,
140 1 certain turns of phrases, and we have to be much
2 more open to that.
3 And thanks for bringing that out, because
4 I don't -- personally, I don't believe that there
5 was any intent other than to promote a certain
6 policy, but no one thought about it from that other
7 standpoint.
8 And now that we have, I think we have an
9 opportunity to go back and reevaluate.
10 So thank you for that.
11 DETECTIVE PAM STARR [ph.]: Well, the
12 Too Good For Drugs program, just so that you know,
13 is from the Mendez Foundation. It's been in the
14 schools since 1978, and it's in 50 states, over
15 3,000 schools.
16 I do believe that Nassau County Police
17 Department is the only school that backed it. And
18 it's, pretty much, 95 percent role play. It's drug
19 prevention, not --
20 ANGIE RURIE [ph.]: [Inaudible.]
21 SENATOR MARTINS: Folks, listen, please.
22 We're not going to be able to get this. This can't
23 be a back-and-forth.
24 Let's --
25 DETECTIVE PAM STARR [ph.]: It would be my
141 1 pleasure for you to be in my audience the next time.
2 Thank you.
3 SENATOR MARTINS: I appreciate it.
4 Detective, thank you very much.
5 [Applause.]
6 SENATOR MARTINS: And, I can't tell you --
7 you know, this is helpful. It is very helpful. The
8 exchange is helpful. The opportunity to have
9 different experiences and shared experiences, and
10 different points of view on the same topic, it's
11 healthy, and it's how we're able to grow.
12 Sir, you had a question before. I'm going to
13 recognize you now.
14 Would you?
15 Thank you.
16 ROB GOLDMAN: My name is Rob Goldman.
17 As I mentioned, I am a professor here at
18 Suffolk Community College, and I also run two
19 programs called the "I Matter Project" and the
20 "Just Like Me Program," that are now being
21 distributed through -- thankfully, through the
22 Suffolk County library system.
23 There's something I want to share that just
24 hasn't come up, and it was really brought to the
25 surface by this woman from Smithtown, and from Jeff
142 1 who I know is also from Smithtown.
2 That, Lisa Hamilton, who is the head of --
3 You here, Lisa?
4 No?
5 -- she works here, and she runs the
6 student -- campus activities department.
7 And for 5 1/2 years that I've been here, my
8 ideas that I come up with for my class to do are far
9 from mainstream. They're very touchy, they're very
10 challenging, for the students, and for the campus,
11 and oftentimes for the community.
12 So in the beginning I would go to Lisa and
13 I would say: Hey, I have this great idea.
14 And she would say: Uh, no. No. It's a good
15 idea, but, no.
16 And after maybe the third or fourth year,
17 I got tired of being shot down.
18 And one day, sitting in class, I said: You
19 know, I went to Lisa Hamilton, and I had this idea,
20 and we are all so for it. You guys came up with an
21 amazing idea, but she said no again. So what are we
22 gonna do?
23 And one of my students raised their hands and
24 said: Why don't we ask her?
25 From that day forward, no project has been
143 1 turned down.
2 And Lisa said to me: You just had to figure
3 it for yourself. We can't say no to our kids or
4 we're going against what we stand for, we're not
5 doing our jobs.
6 So when I look back at my history, I started
7 off as an educator, quote/unquote, as a cub scout
8 leader, and my kids were 7 and 8 years old.
9 We brought programs into our community, and
10 into our school, believe it or not, into our school,
11 where the favorite answer of all answers in public
12 schools is just that beautiful little deadly phrase,
13 "No."
14 And I had my kids, when they were 7 and
15 8 years old, walk into the assistant superintendent
16 of finance and say: We have an idea for a project.
17 The woman who sat in the chair in that office
18 said that no child in her 20-something years had
19 ever walked into the superintendent's office.
20 8:00 the next morning, I had a "go." My
21 project was funded.
22 So, as a professional, my school district
23 said, Thanks, but no thanks.
24 As a parent, my school district said, Thanks,
25 but no thanks.
144 1 But I want to thank -- who is that person
2 from Smithtown? Because we're coming there next.
3 Who are you? Your name?
4 SENATOR MARTINS: We'll connect you
5 afterwards.
6 ROB GOLDMAN: Joanna?
7 I just want to say that there is a new way,
8 and it's empowering our kids; not only for them to
9 think intelligently, but to allow them to learn what
10 it means to take a stand for themselves in the
11 community, in their home, with their peers, with
12 their teachers.
13 It's good to have a voice. It's really
14 healthy.
15 So don't just listen to your kids, don't just
16 talk to your kids. Empower them.
17 They're just young, but they're smart, and
18 they know what they need more than any of us do.
19 They really do know.
20 Thank you.
21 [Applause.]
22 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you very much.
23 I have a question here from Kate Mire [ph.].
24 Kate?
25 KATE MIRE [ph.]: You can read it.
145 1 SENATOR MARTINS: I will read it then.
2 Thank you.
3 It's for Richard Buckman.
4 Richard, there are many people in recovery
5 out there that want to share their experience, to
6 help many of the initiatives you speak about today.
7 What is the best way for them to advocate for
8 recovery, and reduce the negative stigma associated
9 with addiction?
10 RICHARD BUCKMAN: Thanks, Kate. It's nice to
11 see you again.
12 I think, uhm -- what we need to continue to
13 do is to put a public face and voice on people in
14 recovery.
15 I wanted to speak to this a little earlier,
16 when the young lady was speaking about the stigma,
17 and that whole thing around, "How do you change
18 stigma?"
19 It's a monumental battle, but the way that
20 you change the stigma is you continue to put a
21 public face on it.
22 Produce family members.
23 Produce people in long-term recovery, that
24 are famous, that are well known; that are everyday
25 people, that are electricians, that are state
146 1 senators, that are Assembly people.
2 Let those folks continue to come forward and
3 put their face out there, and say:
4 I'm a person in recovery, and what's
5 happening here is unacceptable.
6 And you know what? There's 23 million more
7 people just like me.
8 And guess what? We're coming.
9 That's what we do.
10 [Applause.]
11 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you, Richard.
12 [Laughter.]
13 SENATOR MARTINS: You know, it is a fine
14 line; it is a fine line that we walk here, and it
15 probably is a razor's edge.
16 If you think about it, you know, on one end,
17 we do not want to glorify the use, and we have to
18 take, I think, a proactive approach when it comes to
19 how it is portrayed in media, in films, on TV; and
20 on the other hand, we don't want to demonize it, nor
21 can we.
22 And, so, we have to strike the proper
23 balance, I would think, between the need to provide
24 help, and to understand that it exists, and that we
25 have to work together to overcome it, but, we cannot
147 1 portray it, or allow it to be portrayed societally,
2 as something that is acceptable.
3 And so there is the fine line.
4 Dr. Dowling, what do you think?
5 DR. FRANK DOWLING: I think you're spot-on.
6 And I think it's a challenge that, the fact
7 is, substance use, alcohol and other drug use --
8 elicit drug use, is normal. It's unhealthy and it's
9 risky very often, but it's normal.
10 Most kids drink before they finish
11 high school, at least once, even with the drinking
12 age being 21 for a long time.
13 About half of kids smoke pot at least once
14 before they finish high school.
15 But before they finish college, it is a
16 majority who have tried it at least once.
17 And then other drugs, lower percentages, but
18 it's normal.
19 "Normal" does not mean it's okay. There's
20 healthy choices and unhealthy choices.
21 And I agree with everything that's been said
22 about stigma and educating, and I wanted to grab on
23 to the "peer."
24 I do a lot of work with cops, firefighters,
25 EMTs, and docs, cultures that don't get help, and
148 1 the peer is always the key in getting help.
2 We see that with our militaries, we try and
3 reduce suicide.
4 We need to have peers who aren't just
5 honor students. We need honor students, we need
6 athletes, we need average students, we need people
7 in drama club, people on the football team, people
8 wherever, who are points of contact that can say
9 from get-go: You know, I know you went drinking at
10 the party. I don't think that was a good idea. Do
11 you have a problem? Do you need to talk to someone?
12 And then get them to the proper people at
13 school.
14 That's just one very simple example, but,
15 it's carried out in a million ways.
16 So it's normal, and it's unhealthy, and we
17 need to tackle.
18 We also have to recognize that not every
19 person who uses an elicit substance has a clinical
20 problem, even if it's all unwise, and that's where
21 the challenge is.
22 A good parent who's trying to tease this out
23 could be in denial and saying: Well, it's okay
24 'cause it's just this or that.
25 Or, that kid might have just experimented and
149 1 might not really have a problem.
2 But either way, the kid probably needs to
3 look at it more, and look at it more with a
4 professional, to try and figure it out.
5 So, you know, those are some thoughts that
6 I think we need to throw into this mix.
7 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you, Doctor.
8 Arthur?
9 ARTHUR MURR: It wasn't just Matt, but most
10 of the kids that we know about, they all used to use
11 the same phrase: I just want to be normal.
12 "Normal" to them was not necessarily normal
13 that you would think as "normal."
14 "Normal" meant that, to your point, they'll
15 go out, they'll have a beer, they may smoke a joint,
16 and the next day they'll function. They'll be okay,
17 they'll be able to do something. They'll be fine.
18 There's no problem. They can take the test, they
19 can pass.
20 I mean, you can't -- you know, I hear, you
21 know, okay, the drinking age is 21. They're gonna
22 drink at 18.
23 Well, we're not gonna have prohibition.
24 We've already proven that one didn't work. Okay?
25 But the kids that couldn't stop, that's where
150 1 the problem, that's where it is.
2 You know, I mean, yes, you should not be
3 drinking. Yes, you should not be doing this.
4 But, you know, when they wake up the next
5 morning and they can't stop, or they're completely
6 destroyed, and the person next to them, like in a
7 college dorm, is up, taking their test, doing all
8 this sort of, they look at this and go: I just want
9 to be like him. I want to be normal.
10 It's not -- keep it in mind: it's not the
11 normal that you might think that it is, but to them,
12 it's very real. And it is real.
13 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you.
14 I'm going to try and keep us within an hour
15 of our time, because we are going beyond, but, the
16 discussion has been very important, I believe, this
17 morning.
18 I have a number of questions, and some people
19 who would like to make statements.
20 So, I will go through the balance that are
21 here before we get to the three topics that we have
22 for our afternoon.
23 After going through these, we'll take a brief
24 break, perhaps 15, 20 minutes or so, come back, and
25 then we'll begin addressing the afternoon topics
151 1 which are: Legislation; medical/pharmaceutical;
2 treatment, recovery, and prevention; and law
3 enforcement.
4 But before we get there, we have a question
5 from Claudia Hutchinson-Stewart [ph.], and if you'll
6 permit, I'll ask the question.
7 The question is: How safe are residential
8 facilities, and what steps are being taken to keep
9 drugs out of the facilities?
10 And, what steps are being taken to reengage
11 residents back to a safe environment?
12 Who would like to try and take that one?
13 I believe we're talking about recovery homes,
14 residential facilities.
15 Please.
16 JOHN VENZA: When it comes to safety and
17 residential facilities, I think the first thing is,
18 we have to talk about different types of residential
19 facilities. To make one garden-variety statement
20 that residential treatment facilities are all the
21 same would be very dangerous.
22 I think that when it comes to programs,
23 whether they're long-term, short-term residential,
24 programs have to have written policy and procedure
25 in place that speak to what they do around safety,
152 1 surveillance, the environment, the community, the
2 children-parent involvement.
3 One of the things that programs that have
4 parents involved heavily do, is they keep parents
5 very informed about what happens in programs on a
6 regular basis.
7 Sitting here telling you about residential
8 facilities, obviously, you're taking, for example,
9 55 children like we have, who all came with the most
10 severe progressed mental health and substance
11 addictions, putting them under one roof.
12 And, adolescents, for example, are still
13 drug-seeking.
14 You know, and as far as safety, constant
15 facility runs, constant communication with the kids,
16 constant communication with the parents.
17 Some of the challenges that people heard, and
18 I heard somebody earlier mention about drugs getting
19 into the facilities, recently, a lot of residential
20 programs have been very challenged.
21 And that being the fact, that there are new
22 oversight committees, the New York State Justice
23 Center, and whatnot, and it's changed the way that
24 residential facilities can screen people coming in
25 and out of those programs.
153 1 And, unfortunately, that's created a huge
2 barrier for treatment facilities to have to deal
3 with and manage and negotiate.
4 And I think most programs, with good
5 leadership, are strategizing around that, of how you
6 do that.
7 Programs, when they are running well, the
8 community itself, the people that live there, are
9 speaking with the staff, and the staff are
10 listening.
11 As much as you will do runs, observations,
12 checking common areas, to make sure they're safe,
13 I think nothing substitutes for the fact that -- and
14 when you're doing client surveys.
15 And by regulations, programs are required to
16 do client-satisfaction surveys for the residents,
17 and, if they're minors, for the adults or the
18 parents.
19 Programs that are listening to the people who
20 are there, the people who are living there, are the
21 programs that are gonna be more likely to be keeping
22 the facility safe.
23 The programs that have a disconnect with the
24 family members, I don't want to say that they're
25 gonna be unsafe, but I think that that's, for us,
154 1 has been a huge strength, and I think for a lot of
2 programs that are doing that.
3 So...
4 CLAUDIA HUTCHINSON-STEWART [ph.]: I know you
5 said adolescents, but I'm asking for, you know,
6 adults.
7 You know, I've worked in a facility where it
8 was residential, and that was just my question,
9 I was just asking, so that the forum would know.
10 And, actually, as an insider, and as a
11 counselor, I just wanted, you know, the question to
12 be answered, so that everyone would be aware, and,
13 that was my question.
14 It wasn't just for an adolescent forum. It
15 was just for a group forum, so that everyone would
16 be aware.
17 And me as a counselor, working in the
18 facilities, you know, you have your opinions, and
19 I also have mine.
20 So, okay, so that was my question.
21 Okay.
22 And the second part of my question, the
23 answer?
24 How -- what do you do to integrate the
25 families back into a safe -- well, the client back
155 1 into a safe environment?
2 Or, anyone can answer that question.
3 JOHN VENZA: Again, I can give you one
4 perspective. I'm sure there are multiple
5 perspectives.
6 We created a -- what's called a "school-out
7 transition program." Our kids live there between
8 6 and 12 months. And, generally, between the last
9 4 and 10 weeks of their program residential stay,
10 they'll go back to their district schools.
11 Sometimes there is busing involved from some
12 districts, sometimes it's parents taking them back
13 and forth, so they can begin to go back and deal
14 with the kids who want to bring them down, the kids
15 that want to get them high, to put them through
16 tremendous feelings, and then come back to the
17 safety of the treatment facility at night, as
18 they're doing that reintegration back into the
19 district school.
20 We also begin to extend their time home, on
21 structured passes, with their family during the
22 final phases of treatment, so they begin, not just
23 going home on a weekend, but a workday, when mom and
24 dad go out to work and they have to go and do what
25 they need to do to make it more like real life.
156 1 That transition process, the whole reentry
2 process, and I know adult programs do very similar
3 things, is critical.
4 We also touch base with very specific student
5 assistant counselors in each of the districts, so
6 there is a liaison when they go back to their
7 district schools and communities.
8 CLAUDIA HUTCHINSON-STEWART [ph.]: Just a
9 question, and then I'm going to sit down and shut
10 up.
11 [Laughter.]
12 CLAUDIA HUTCHINSON-STEWART [ph.]: But, if --
13 let's say you have a particular situation, where you
14 know that the client is going back, not -- I'm still
15 not talking about adolescent. Understand, I don't
16 work with the adolescents. -- but as an adult, and
17 they're going back to a home where you know it's not
18 safe, do we continue to place them back into a crack
19 house where everyone's getting high? Or do we find
20 a different alternative with different resources to
21 say: Okay, you know what? I feel that, or step in
22 now, and say, This is where I -- you know, we're
23 gonna gear you toward maybe moving you out of your
24 environment, or finding a safe place for you to
25 live? Or do we throw them back out on streets?
157 1 SENATOR MARTINS: Let me just intercede here
2 for just one moment.
3 There are obviously best practices out there,
4 and I think what we're going to get is, each
5 organization highlighting how that organization has
6 chosen to address this issue.
7 And, perhaps, a more global answer would be,
8 perhaps we have to do a better job at determining
9 those best practices, highlighting them, those that
10 are more successful, in different environments.
11 And, perhaps, create an opportunity for different
12 groups to work together in developing, perhaps, a
13 more holistic approach.
14 Otherwise, I do believe that we're gonna get
15 here is, each group and each organization giving
16 their opinion as to what has worked in their
17 particular instance.
18 And that really isn't, I think, the purpose
19 for this particular forum.
20 It could be a purpose for a future forum.
21 STEVE MARGOLIES: Well, actually, all I was
22 gonna say, is that it really takes a holistic
23 approach; that treatment doesn't end when the
24 treatment episode ends. You have to look at the
25 living situation, employment, school, where they're
158 1 gonna provide follow-up, and, really address each
2 life area before someone's ready to leave.
3 SENATOR MARTINS: And what kind of a support
4 structure --
5 STEVE MARGOLIES: Exactly.
6 SENATOR MARTINS: -- does the person have
7 around them, personally, to help them --
8 STEVE MARGOLIES: It's all part of it.
9 SENATOR MARTINS: It's all part of it.
10 STEVE MARGOLIES: Yeah.
11 SENATOR MARTINS: And it is a very individual
12 question, and there are so many different factors.
13 Yes.
14 DR. JAMES DOLAN: Is this on? Okay.
15 So, just specific to the housing question for
16 adults: Obviously, we have the different levels of
17 housing when someone is in treatment crisis,
18 short-term rehab, and long-term rehab.
19 And, the New York State Office OASAS --
20 New York State OASAS Office has been criticized over
21 the years for not doing more to assure that there's
22 a safe, stable, supportive housing available to
23 adults to support the recovery process.
24 Fortunately, I think, through the advocacy
25 efforts, such as those that are taking place today,
159 1 OASAS is moving further in the direction of funding
2 what is called "supported house." It's called
3 "permanent supported housing."
4 Those type of opportunities, housing
5 opportunities, are getting off the ground in
6 Nassau County and in Suffolk.
7 And, in fact, my office does have an RFI
8 kicking around right now with our provider
9 community, also offering the opportunity to provide
10 additional housing slots, to support people who are
11 in the recovery process.
12 So, it is certainly recognized as essential
13 to the recovery process: safe, stable, supportive
14 housing.
15 And, I think we're starting to do more in
16 that area.
17 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you.
18 Thank you very much.
19 Question here, no attribution, it says: What
20 do we need to do to provide support to parents of
21 people under and over 18 years old of age -- yes, so
22 HIPAA doesn't prevent access to care and support?
23 No, I appreciate that.
24 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I'm specifically looking
25 at, what legislation could be made available to
160 1 support those parents that are doing everything,
2 like yours did, to get their kids into treatment?
3 Kids are not necessarily under the age of 18,
4 or they are under the age of 18, and HIPAA laws
5 prevent (inaudible) to get information, to get them
6 care?
7 SENATOR MARTINS: And let me repeat that,
8 because unless you're at a mic, they're not gonna
9 get that.
10 No, no, it's fine, and I'll do that.
11 And it's a great question.
12 You know, we have children, that are
13 children, that are over the age of 18, and because
14 of our laws and protections that are rightfully
15 there, they will interfere with a parent's need to
16 be involved, and sometimes excluded from decisions
17 that are made, and care that may be available to a
18 child, "child," although over the age of 18.
19 Arthur?
20 ARTHUR MURR: Right, and, first of all, when
21 they're over 21 -- [technical difficulties].
22 So when they're over 21, they can walk out.
23 And they do. Okay?
24 Whenever we -- whenever Matt agreed -- and
25 I gotta say it this way -- whenever Matt agreed to
161 1 go to a facility, we worked very hard to make sure
2 that he would sign the paper that allowed us to
3 speak to him, and speak to the counselors. Okay?
4 That's an option. That's not a requirement.
5 And we were told, and when he was -- when he
6 was -- you know, just started, when he was -- you
7 know, when he was under 21.
8 When it became over 21, it got to be: Well,
9 he's here, but if he decides to leave, we can't stop
10 him, and we can't tell you anything about it when
11 he -- when he does leave.
12 Fortunately for us, by the time he got over
13 21, he was getting more and more motivated to do
14 something about himself, you know, and to try to
15 help himself.
16 But it is a problem. It really is.
17 He has protections, he should have
18 protections, but it's not -- but it can't be
19 absolute. No right that we have is absolute.
20 There's always something that goes on with it.
21 And there's something here that needs to
22 change with it also.
23 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you.
24 Yes.
25 DR. JAMES DOLAN: I'll turn this on.
162 1 It's not working. I'll just talk loud.
2 Oh, there we go.
3 This might be more pertinent to the later
4 discussion about legislative issues, but, on the
5 mental-health side of the business, we have what is
6 known as "AOT Law," or also referred to as
7 "Kendra's Law," which means that it's court-ordered
8 outpatient treatment. It's -- it's made available
9 to individuals who are a danger to themselves or
10 others, and that fact has been established over a
11 period of a recent history, and that dangerousness
12 is due to, uh -- oftentimes, non-compliance due
13 to -- non-compliance with treatment.
14 So the question is always oftentimes posed to
15 me: Why don't we have it, an AOT Law/Kendra's Law,
16 similar to -- or on the chemical-dependency side of
17 the business.
18 And then I think that would be appropriate.
19 When children or adults are a danger to
20 themselves or others, but they're in between
21 overdoses, the law -- New York State law doesn't
22 allow for us to do, so to speak, a pickup, or
23 mandate that person into outpatient treatment.
24 So we -- again, with the people who have a
25 primary psychiatric diagnosis, if we know that that
163 1 person is a danger to themselves or others, without
2 treatment, that we have AOT Law that enables us to
3 have a court-ordered outpatient treatment in those
4 instances.
5 We don't have that same tool available to us
6 when the person is in between overdoses. We are not
7 able to mandate treatment for those individuals.
8 So, if a parent was to report -- if a child
9 is under this AOT Law extension that includes people
10 who are in between overdoses, if the parent was to
11 report that the child is using again, that would,
12 theoretically, give us the ability to, so to speak,
13 bring that person to the emergency room and restart
14 the treatment process.
15 SENATOR MARTINS: Doctor.
16 DR. FRANK DOWLING: The question about
17 HIPAA privacy and under 18/over 18 is really a great
18 question, and it's important that people understand.
19 And I answer this question as a parent of
20 four children who are 19 through 26, and as a
21 psychiatric physician who does address addictions,
22 as well as the gamut of mental illness.
23 Your child may be 15, 14, 13, 17 and
24 11 months, and you may have to consent to their
25 treatment. But under the law, I can't discuss
164 1 anything about that with you without their
2 permission.
3 And what's being referred to here under
4 Kendra's Law, Kendra's Law itself, you have to have
5 another psychiatric problem, not just a
6 primary-addiction problem, where the law doesn't
7 even apply to you, but only at the level of imminent
8 danger.
9 And we don't have to mince words.
10 Think of: I'm really afraid as a doctor,
11 death could happen in the next day, and then I can
12 violate that privacy without permission, and only
13 then.
14 Now, on the other hand, in this
15 doctor-patient or therapist/counselor-patient
16 relationship, privacy, confidentiality, and trust is
17 foremost.
18 If I have an addiction problem, I have to
19 know that I can trust that counselor, what they may
20 or may not share, or I'm not willing to get help or
21 willing to talk about the real reasons that are
22 going on with my addiction.
23 It's a troublesome balancing act, but I will
24 say that, legislatively, we need some room for
25 clinical discretion, to say, even if it's not
165 1 serious and imminent danger, today, tomorrow, is the
2 day, particularly for people under 21 or under 18,
3 there's a high risk of harm over the next few months
4 or something -- we'd have to really figure it out --
5 where now I can have permission that I can use my
6 judgment and talk to my patient and say: I'd like
7 you to give me permission, but without it, I need to
8 let your parents know.
9 So, it's a very complicated issue, and I'm
10 really glad that question was asked.
11 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you.
12 [Applause.]
13 SENATOR MARTINS: Richard.
14 RICHARD BUCKMAN: If I could just add
15 something, to extend that a little bit:
16 I think one of things, I was going to suggest
17 this later on as part my own personal
18 recommendations, but -- but I think we do need an
19 involuntary-treatment law here in New York State.
20 And --
21 [Applause.]
22 RICHARD BUCKMAN: And the reason why we need
23 that, is we're talking about people right here who
24 are already in treatment. But, families have loved
25 ones who are dying because they won't go to
166 1 treatment, even though everybody knows that they
2 need to be in treatment.
3 And, we have precedent.
4 There are at least 12 states across America
5 who have involuntary-treatment laws.
6 Comes to mind for me are: The Marchman Act
7 in Florida. Casey' Law in Kentucky.
8 Casey's Law in Kentucky, just a quick tidbit,
9 that law materialized out of the passion of a mother
10 who lost her 25-year-old son to an overdose, because
11 he refused to go into treatment.
12 So, I think this is another one of the
13 suggestions that we have to put on the landscape.
14 And, it kind of makes sense.
15 You know, the first responders reversed over
16 500 overdoses last year, according to the statistics
17 that we're seeing.
18 What happens to those people now? Do they
19 get forced into treatment?
20 I think that they should. "We saved your
21 life, now let's go get you some help."
22 I think it's important.
23 [Applause.]
24 RICHARD BUCKMAN: Otherwise -- otherwise,
25 they're gonna OD again next year, especially because
167 1 they can't get access to treatment.
2 SENATOR MARTINS: It almost seems like a
3 shame to break right now, doesn't it?
4 We're getting -- we're getting to, I think,
5 some rather critical issues.
6 But, I'm going to pose two more questions
7 that have been asked, and then we are going to take
8 a break, and, we will be back.
9 There are a series of other topics, but we
10 will be able to come back to some of these, I think,
11 this afternoon.
12 The first one I'll pose, on behalf of Janene,
13 is to Dr. Ring.
14 Doctor, the question is: How have you
15 bridged the gap of communication with the community?
16 Is there a protocol, or, perhaps, a best
17 practice that you've used, in terms of outreach to
18 the Rocky Point community when it comes to issues
19 having to do with addiction?
20 DR. MICHAEL F. RING: Well, thank you for the
21 question.
22 Janene, is Janene Gentile, who is executive
23 director of the North Shore Youth Counsel.
24 And we have Peggy Ward with us, who's our
25 lead substance-abuse counselor, districtwide, and
168 1 also handles cases for us in the high school.
2 And the answer really is: Through people
3 like Janene, you know, Janene's organization
4 educated me. And I -- you know, I am an educator,
5 but I don't know everything, even though I may act
6 like it from time to time.
7 And, Janene's organization is the
8 organization that educated me.
9 I do know people who have died from
10 overdoses, but I still wasn't well educated.
11 So, it starred with getting an education from
12 those who are the true professionals out there in
13 the community, building the bridges with them, and
14 then getting very comfortable -- and this is
15 something that's come up over and over again
16 today -- getting very comfortable with talking about
17 this publicly, as a public problem, without worrying
18 that we would be stigmatized as a community; that
19 someone would think less of us as a school district,
20 or as individuals, just because we're talking about
21 it.
22 And the more you talk about it, the more
23 comfortable you become talking about it, and that
24 allows us to bridge the gap that may exist with
25 parents, as I said earlier, who haven't yet been
169 1 impacted, but their day may sadly be coming.
2 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you, Janene, for the
3 question.
4 Thank you, Dr. Ring for clarification.
5 [Applause.]
6 SENATOR MARTINS: And, so, I am going to
7 finish this segment, almost full circle, with one of
8 the first questions we asked early on, and it had to
9 do with Lindy Cares.
10 And one of the questions, as a follow-up,
11 was:
12 Are there, again, best practices, practical
13 things, specific things, that groups that are out
14 there, if they're individuals here, or that may be
15 watching, who want to start a similar advocacy group
16 locally, what advice would you give, specifically,
17 as to how they can go about doing it, and what your
18 experience has been?
19 Because, frankly, this can be an opportunity
20 to inspire so many others to follow your lead.
21 JUDITH RAIMONDI: Absolutely.
22 Thanks.
23 Currently, the Suffolk County Prevention
24 Resource Center is very available to help
25 communities that do not currently have a coalition
170 1 in place.
2 They have led us, and held our hand, from the
3 very beginning, so I'm really grateful for them.
4 The peer-to-peer is an amazing and beautiful
5 idea, and it works, but parent-to-parent is what the
6 problem -- where the problem does lie.
7 So, you know, simple things that we talk
8 about, meeting monthly to try, again, the partnering
9 with community members, with parents, has been
10 critical.
11 But, going to your medicine cabinet and
12 cleaning out the bottles, locking them up, simple
13 things that we can do as parents, is a really great
14 place to start.
15 Another thing: Lock your car doors at night.
16 I mean, we -- just basic things.
17 What we're finding in our community is,
18 heroin addicts will just roll up on your car.
19 If you have your door unlocked, they open it
20 and they steal everything out of the car.
21 I mean, we don't have to necessarily fuel
22 their addiction either.
23 So, some basic practical ideas are, those, as
24 well as continuing conversation.
25 I loved what the -- you know, the gentleman
171 1 that lost his son, said.
2 My children are, like, Here she goes again.
3 And that's what they're gonna have to hear.
4 This disease runs in my family.
5 I am a recovering person. I live it,
6 I breathe it, I walk it. And coming from that
7 perspective, I know the importance of talking about
8 it.
9 And the piece that I think we don't talk
10 about enough is, if it runs in a family, how, just,
11 you know, the chances are so much higher.
12 So, go to your -- call the Suffolk County
13 Prevention Resource Center, or go to LIPRC.org.
14 The women at that organization will so help
15 you start a coalition, and help you build.
16 It's a lot of work of reaching out to
17 senators, mayors, county legislators, town
18 supervisors, business owners.
19 We went to the Beautification Society, the
20 Kiwanis Club, the Rotary Club. We went to every
21 organization and person that we possibly could.
22 And our first meeting were 40 people, main
23 players in the community.
24 Senator Phil Boyle has -- he has sent
25 Ann Parmalee [ph.] to every one of our meetings.
172 1 She's attended, she's been a support. She was a
2 judge on our pizza-box-campaign art work.
3 Like, we're just getting some great stuff out
4 there to just raise awareness.
5 The issues are hard enough.
6 The campaigns to raise the awareness can be
7 fluffy. They can be soft.
8 You know, so, I just support you.
9 And, if you don't have a coalition in your
10 community, start one.
11 If you have any questions, come and -- you
12 know, you can go to our website, www.LindyCares.org.
13 My phone number is on the website. You can call me
14 personally and I will bring you to their office.
15 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you,
16 Jennifer Leibowitz [ph.], for the question.
17 Thank you very much.
18 [Applause.]
19 SENATOR MARTINS: And, Rene, to wrap up on
20 this point.
21 RENE FEITCHER: Yeah, thank you.
22 When we first started the county's coalition,
23 the very first activity we did was coalition
24 building, and we brought coalitions from all over
25 the island. We were incredibly impressed with the
173 1 network.
2 But what I wanted to leave you with, is that
3 many of these really good groups --
4 Like, for me, I know Nassau really well,
5 Nassau. But my wife is active on the North Port --
6 East North Port Coalition.
7 -- they were started by SAMSHA, which
8 provides incredible grants.
9 Now, the last round of grants was missed
10 about two weeks ago, but there's a new round called
11 the "Mentoring SAMSHA Grant."
12 For those who would like to form their
13 coalition, and haven't done such a hot job on
14 getting an application in, there are grants that are
15 not -- they're due by April 23rd. Provides you
16 $78,000 to help a burgeoning group pull together and
17 get it done.
18 And Robin McKinnon and the recovery group
19 have been absolutely fabulous.
20 But, I think that's one of the real key
21 things that's sustainable, that keeps the momentum
22 of this battle that we're fighting, and save a
23 couple of lives.
24 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you very much.
25 DR. JAMES DOLAN: I just want to make a very
174 1 quick point, if the microphone ever turns on.
2 Yeah.
3 Okay, so, in Nassau County, we have contracts
4 with 29 of the 56 school districts, where we fund
5 social-worker salaries in those school districts.
6 The social workers, as a requirement of that
7 contract, are required to deliver evidence-based
8 programming during the course of the school day.
9 They're required to do coalition building in their
10 community.
11 So, again, as an advocacy team here, I think
12 we should look to further that ability on our part,
13 to put social workers, funded, to do prevention
14 services in each of our schools, and do that kind of
15 community coalition building in Nassau and in
16 Suffolk.
17 SENATOR MARTINS: So to wrap up:
18 One, let's work through our schools. Let's
19 make sure our schools have the resources available
20 to them, so that they can provide, as part of the
21 curricula, not only an opportunity to bring our kids
22 along, integrate them in education, but, also,
23 after-school clubs, and other activities that are
24 school-related.
25 Two, let's bring our parents together and
175 1 civic groups together to work on this. Parents have
2 to be involved. It can't just be our children, but
3 parents have to be involved, as well.
4 And, certainly, if we're able to work
5 together with our kids, with our parents, and with
6 all of the support structures and groups that we
7 have, as represented here on this panel, we've taken
8 a huge step forward.
9 We're gonna take a break.
10 It was originally supposed to be a half-hour
11 break.
12 I'm going to ask, again, as part of an effort
13 to continue this dialogue, let's try to get together
14 in about 15 minutes, 20 minutes, and see if we can't
15 continue this.
16 I will also point out that I have some
17 requests for statements; that people want to make
18 statements.
19 There will be an opportunity to make
20 statements further on in the program.
21 Thank you very much.
22 (A recess was taken.)
23 (The forum resumed, as follows:)
24 SENATOR MARTINS: We'd like to keep this to a
25 Q&A format, so, if there's a statement you'd like to
176 1 make, and, certainly, you're free to do so, we'd ask
2 that you prepare the statement and send it to
3 Senator Boyle's office, where it will be included in
4 the record.
5 Aside from that, just to keep this format
6 going and give everybody an opportunity to have
7 their question asked, we're gonna stick to the Q&A
8 format, as we go forward.
9 If there is time at the end, certainly, we
10 will afford the opportunity, but I think the
11 give-and-take has been very interesting thus far.
12 And I think it's been important that we continue
13 with that format.
14 Three topics that we're going to address now
15 in this session -- excuse me, four, we're going to
16 start with legislation, then we're gonna go to
17 medical/pharmaceutical, then treatment, recovery,
18 and prevention, and then, lastly, law enforcement,
19 before we close out.
20 This session is being filmed, as was the one
21 this morning. It is available, and will be
22 available, on the New York Senate website. So if
23 anyone is interested in accessing this, you'll
24 certainly be able to do so by going to the
25 New York State Senate website. It should be
177 1 available by tomorrow on the website, as will all of
2 the 12 sessions that will be held across
3 New York State.
4 And I was remiss earlier in not recognizing a
5 colleague in government, Eden Laikin is here.
6 Eden is the chair of the Nassau County --
7 [Applause.]
8 SENATOR MARTINS: Yes, she deserves that, and
9 much more.
10 Eden is the Chair of the Nassau County
11 Prescription Drug Abuse Task Force. And she
12 certainly has been no stranger to the issue of
13 opioid abuse and heroin abuse, right out there on
14 front edge of this issue, here on behalf of
15 County Executive Mangano.
16 Eden, thanks for being here.
17 So let's start with our discussion on
18 legislation, and I'll pose this question, well, to
19 Senator Boyle:
20 This year we have been -- had more discussion
21 than ever focusing on the heroin epidemic throughout
22 the state of New York. We have introduced proposed
23 legislation, and held hearings and forums, such as
24 this one.
25 As Chair of this Task Force, and Chairman of
178 1 the Senate Committee on Alcoholism and Drug Abuse,
2 perhaps you can give us an overview of recently
3 passed and currently proposed legislation pertaining
4 to this epidemic, and your thoughts on where we
5 should go -- direction we should take, as a
6 Legislature, as we approach the end of this
7 legislative session.
8 SENATOR BOYLE: Thank you, Jack.
9 And I would start out by saying that, as many
10 of you know, we recently passed, the New York State
11 Senate, on time, for the fourth year in a row.
12 Good for us.
13 It's sad when you have to brag about
14 something like that.
15 But, as part of the legislation, though, as
16 part of state budget, we did increase funding for
17 the -- for heroin and opioid prevention and
18 treatment programs.
19 Now, the way the system works, we have
20 one-House bills.
21 The Senate passes our version, the Assembly
22 passes their version, and then they meet to come
23 upon the perfect, or as best as they can get, final
24 state budget.
25 In our State Senate version of the budget, we
179 1 actually put in place $7.45 million towards
2 prevention and treatment of heroin.
3 The Assembly, unfortunately, they only put a
4 million dollars in, which is a good amount of money,
5 but, you know, not as much as we'd like to see.
6 In the final analysis, we passed
7 $2.8 million, additional.
8 Now, there's, obviously, tens of millions of
9 dollars being spent on prevention and treatment in
10 New York State already, but we increased that
11 funding by 2.8 million.
12 Good step in the right direction. Not as far
13 as we'd like to go.
14 And that's actually why we're having this
15 panel today, and we'll have the other forums
16 throughout the state, to find out, as we talk in
17 this afternoon's discussion, about the most
18 effective programs, treatments, that we -- we have
19 to think of the things that are working now, and
20 things that we think will work in future, to where
21 to put those additional funds, and, to best combat
22 this heroin problem statewide.
23 Another piece of legislation which was passed
24 recently, was Senator Hannon's bill regarding
25 Naloxone. I always call it "Narcan," but there's
180 1 other different -- I know that's a brand name, the
2 legislation.
3 We started out a couple of years ago with the
4 pilot projects in Nassau and Suffolk county, where
5 first responders had more access to Naloxone.
6 It worked out so well, and there was another
7 county upstate that it worked out so well in, that
8 we now put it statewide, to get more access to first
9 responders.
10 We want to make it as wide as possible for
11 family, friends, community members, to have access
12 to Narcan, and training.
13 And I would add, parenthetically, for those
14 of you who did not see the flyer up there, we're
15 doing a Naloxone and Narcan training program on
16 Tuesday, April 22nd, from 6 to 7 p.m., at the
17 Deer Park Fire Department.
18 I know that many of you have already had the
19 training, but for those of you who have not, it's
20 well worth it.
21 As a former EMT myself, I've seen Narcan work
22 as a true miracle drug, where it saves lives.
23 We have to talk about getting treatment to
24 people, these patients need in the long term, but it
25 does save lives in the immediate situation.
181 1 And that legislation was passed in the
2 State Senate and the State Assembly with broad
3 bipartisan support. Everyone agrees we need to make
4 Naloxone more readily available to people throughout
5 the state.
6 One of the pieces of legislation that we are
7 talking about, and we've discussed a little bit
8 today, was Senator Hannon's bill on mandating
9 insurance coverage for treatment services.
10 That is not passed yet. We're looking to do
11 this.
12 And I can tell you, Jack, that, just in this
13 morning's discussion -- I can't thank everyone here
14 enough, the audience, the panelists -- I've been
15 taking copious notes, and probably come up with four
16 or five ideas for pieces of legislation that will
17 probably be part of the final -- final report that
18 we're gonna issue on June 1st, as part of the
19 Heroin Task Force.
20 And if the other 11 forums are half as good
21 as this one, then we're gonna have a great report,
22 and come out with some very effective and serious
23 legislation in the coming part of the Legislature's
24 legislative season.
25 Thank you.
182 1 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you.
2 Thank you very much.
3 [Applause.]
4 SENATOR MARTINS: You know, he's absolutely
5 right, this is -- there is no silver bullet when we
6 deal with this particular issue. There are multiple
7 facets.
8 And I think, if there's anything we've heard
9 here so far today, it's that there are going to have
10 to be various ways that this is approached.
11 It's not just going to be about providing
12 additional funding for those groups that address the
13 issue head-on, but it's also going be a challenge to
14 our State Education Department to incorporate
15 curricula in a -- incorporate drug abuse and opioid
16 abuse and heroin abuse, in a holistic way, into our
17 curricula statewide, so that our schools will begin
18 taking on this challenge.
19 There are many fronts, and we've heard about
20 them. And, certainly, this is very helpful.
21 The measures that are out there, we'll
22 continue to support, we'll continue to move them
23 forward.
24 There are law-enforcement measures: stricter
25 rules. Penalties for selling drugs, people over the
183 1 age of 18, to people under the age of 14, because
2 that's the reality today. It's no longer, you know,
3 teenagers. It's 12 -- 11-, 12-, 13-, 14-year-olds
4 that are getting access to these drugs, and we have
5 to be prepared to deal with those consequences, as
6 well.
7 You know, one of the questions that came to
8 us as we were on break, had to do with just the
9 realities of a parent of a child who is addicted,
10 and, getting treatment, access to treatment, and
11 being able to mandatorily provide for treatment for
12 a child.
13 And many people here in the room may be well
14 aware of the fact that a child can, at 14, 15,
15 16 years of age, walk out of a treatment facility
16 and decide they don't want to be treated, and
17 there's very little, if anything, that a parent can
18 do.
19 I don't think people out there understand
20 that that is a reality; that when we're dealing with
21 minors, not only kids over the age of 18, but when
22 we're dealing with children, that it is
23 extraordinarily difficult if they refuse to
24 participate in a program.
25 So there was a question that came in,
184 1 specifically from a parent from Lindenhurst.
2 And I'm gonna ask -- I'm gonna ask John Venza
3 if he'll give us his thoughts on this, and, perhaps,
4 avenues that, you know, the State can take,
5 legislatively, to try and allow for that family
6 structure, parents, with regard to, you know,
7 obviously, loved ones who they want to see get
8 treatment, not be thwarted simply because a child
9 has chosen not to participate.
10 How do we deal with that?
11 JOHN VENZA: Thank you for the question.
12 It's a very real situation. I think a lot of
13 folks in the audience have experienced it.
14 I see it every day in our facilities that
15 kids want to self-discharge. They want to leave
16 against clinical advice.
17 You know, we intervene. We have their peers.
18 We have a room full of staff. Sometimes we're lucky
19 enough get a probation officer to come up to the
20 facility and assist.
21 And, yet, at the end of the day, if the kid
22 maintains, the child leaves treatment and ends
23 treatment, ultimately, by regulation right now, the
24 primary patient is the adolescent, the young person.
25 And regulations say: Treatment is voluntary,
185 1 and I may choose to end my treatment at any time.
2 It's -- we have that in all of our outpatient
3 and inpatient facilities that are OASAS-licensed.
4 So this is a very real reality.
5 I think an incremental change, Senator, that
6 may be something that we could revisit, if I may,
7 respectfully, is, some years back, the legislation
8 around PINS was modified.
9 And I think the ability for a school or a
10 parent to expeditiously get a child into
11 family court for some assistance, because they need
12 the help, was changed, where they had to show a
13 diversion process first, mandatorily.
14 And I think folks were back and forth with
15 it, you know, and nobody wants to necessarily see
16 their child in court.
17 But I think what we've seen over the years
18 is, a lot more kids progress further out of control.
19 Parents saying: I can't do anything. The
20 process of diversion is taking way too long. I've
21 tried many of the things they're asking us to do.
22 The child is progressing in their mental-health
23 symptomology, their substance-abuse symptomology.
24 They're finding themselves very out of control.
25 And, unfortunately, an unintended consequence
186 1 of that legislation, is they end up in court anyway,
2 the criminal court, and then they get mandated into
3 treatment.
4 And I think if, you know, we could maybe
5 revisit that, there may be an incremental change
6 that could really help assist parents in getting
7 their young folks into program.
8 SENATOR MARTINS: I appreciate that, because,
9 again, as a parent of a couple of teenagers, and a
10 few on the way to being teenagers, you know, the
11 thought that, somehow, I want what's best for my
12 child, and I want her to have access to the best
13 treatment, because I want her to get help.
14 And the fact that, as an adolescent, as a
15 person who doesn't have an understanding of the need
16 for treatment and the need to go through the
17 process, that they can remove themself from the
18 process, would leave me as a parent with absolutely
19 no option, other than to throw my hands in the air
20 and say: It's beyond me.
21 There has to be a better answer, and the
22 answer can't be that, the State, the laws, won't
23 allow a parent of a minor child the ability to
24 prepare, protect, that child, even if it means
25 protecting that child from herself.
187 1 Dr. Reynolds, what do you think?
2 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: So I think, back at a
3 time when the progression of things perhaps took a
4 little bit longer, some of these measures that we've
5 looked at made sense. And we looked at the courts
6 and said, Look, there's a pretty predictable
7 progression when it comes to young people and their
8 use and their addiction.
9 Point A to Point B now happens, like that
10 [snaps fingers], and families run out of options
11 very, very quickly.
12 And to John's last point, you know, the issue
13 of the criminal justice system: You know, one of
14 the surest ways, in fact, the only sure way, to get
15 treatment paid for, is to have your child arrested.
16 And so it's built into many managed-care
17 contracts, that if there's an arrest, then the
18 insurer must pay; whereas, outside of that, insurers
19 consistently refuse to pay.
20 So we're in a position, where, (a) we're
21 waiting for that are kid to, quote/unquote, hit
22 bottom, whatever that might mean. And for a lot of
23 kids, "bottom" means an overdose;
24 And also saying that our only solution to
25 this, when you've run through other options, and
188 1 you've sat down and had the conversation, and
2 brought in folks from the panel and everybody else
3 to have a conversation with that family, is: Okay,
4 have them arrested.
5 And then we wind up coaching people about,
6 when to do it, what to get them charged with, and,
7 you know, let's do it at a time when they don't have
8 significant quantity on them, so they're not in
9 Vinny's place for a long time.
10 That's craziness; and that's one of the
11 reasons why we're spending $255 million to build a
12 new jail.
13 There's an easier solution to this.
14 So I think John is exactly right, we've got
15 take a look at --
16 [Applause.]
17 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: -- we've got to take a
18 look at what we're doing, and how we're addressing
19 this.
20 And to Angie's point, this really gets to:
21 Do we view addiction as a health problem or as a
22 criminal justice issue?
23 And while addiction has criminal justice
24 components, and sometimes the resultant behavior
25 interfaces with the criminal justice system, this is
189 1 a health problem.
2 Trying to force a criminal justice solution
3 onto a health problem, historically, hasn't worked
4 for us.
5 [Applause.]
6 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you.
7 You know, I think we can all draw the line
8 somewhere, but I think, and I would agree with you,
9 addiction is a health problem. The drug sale is a
10 criminal justice issue.
11 And if we're beginning to come to that
12 conclusion ourselves, I think we're in a much better
13 place.
14 But these forums are incredibly important,
15 because I would tell you, that 95 percent of the
16 public out there doesn't understand what we just
17 discussed.
18 95 percent of the public, who, thankfully,
19 has never had to go through that, and the
20 frustration of having to, literally, wrestle with
21 their own government, so that they can have the
22 opportunity to protect their child. They don't
23 understand that.
24 And I think the more we bring that to light,
25 the more likely there's going to be that we can
190 1 actually effectuate some meaningful change and get
2 something done about it.
3 You know, one of questions that came up,
4 also, and I'll throw it out there and ask if anyone
5 wants to take it:
6 I have a child, a 17-year-old, a 14-year-old,
7 who are teenagers; the others are younger.
8 If I wanted, as part of my child's, my
9 14-year-old's, physical exam, if I wanted my child
10 to be tested for drug use, you know, as part of
11 their analysis when they take blood and they check
12 for cholesterol and they check for other things, if
13 I wanted my child to be tested for drugs, as a
14 parent, can I do that?
15 Doctor.
16 DR. FRANK DOWLING: You may be able to, but
17 in my experience, there's a few obstacles.
18 One is, as we've talked about with other
19 issues, the patient has to know, and they have to
20 agree.
21 The other is, as much as I wish this were not
22 the case, the fact is, drug screening is not a
23 perfect science. And there are false positives with
24 the office-based easier and less-expensive testing.
25 The more detailed, sophisticated testing that
191 1 gets sent out to a lab, to really know for sure, to
2 confirm, is more expensive. And, again, plans don't
3 want to cover it.
4 And it becomes a very complicated issue, just
5 to get a drug screen.
6 In my opinion, and I said this to someone
7 earlier, if I were the commissioner of mental health
8 or the commissioner of health, I would probably
9 mandate that anybody who is in any psychiatric
10 treatment anywhere, could go for a drug screen on
11 admission to that, and -- and then, randomly, or
12 more, depending on if they have substance-use
13 issues.
14 However, you'd also have to mandate that
15 no one can be refused treatment or kicked out of a
16 program because there's a positive, because that's
17 the fear, and that's why people don't agree.
18 But it would be very difficult just to get
19 that done. The doctor may not know how to order it.
20 If they do order it, who's gonna pay for it?
21 And, then, what do I do with this positive;
22 is it accurate, or not?
23 It's actually more complicated than I wish it
24 were.
25 SENATOR MARTINS: Well, and, again, and I'm
192 1 throwing it out there for anyone who wishes to
2 participate, but the question I'm getting at is:
3 When I spoke about my 17-year-old and my
4 14-year-old, how about my 8-year-old? At what point
5 do you need a patient's consent?
6 And I'm not -- look, I'm not advocating that
7 we drug-test 8-year-olds, but I'm getting -- I'm
8 trying to make a point here, that at some point,
9 "at some point," we have to understand what we're up
10 against.
11 And if there is an epidemic, and we're all
12 convinced -- we're all convinced that we have an
13 epidemic of truly, truly significant proportions,
14 then we have to be prepared to do things about it.
15 And if that means getting out of our comfort
16 zone, why shouldn't we be advocating for having
17 uniform drug testing as part of a physical, as
18 radical as that may sound, so that a parent has the
19 opportunity to understand, when their child is --
20 has been, you know, under the influence of drugs, or
21 taking drugs, so that they can intercede and help
22 that child receive the help at an earlier age, as
23 opposed to dealing with the consequences down the
24 road?
25 And I'm being provocative intentionally here:
193 1 Why shouldn't we do that?
2 [Applause.]
3 SENATOR MARTINS: Yes, Ms. Brown.
4 KATHY BROWN: I think there's another piece
5 to that.
6 I know we have a few doctors here on the
7 panel who are very interested in addiction; and, so,
8 have all the knowledge about addiction.
9 I'm gonna toss out: You might go to a doctor
10 and they might do a drug test on you, and identify
11 that you have a problem with addiction.
12 Do they have a list of referrals there, as if
13 they would have a list of referrals if you had a
14 GI problem or an eye problem?
15 I think, and I'm part of the medical
16 profession, we're not well educated about addiction.
17 And we are all agreeing here that this is a
18 health issue; and, yet, the medical profession isn't
19 fully on board. You know, they don't have the
20 knowledge.
21 In Suffolk County, I know we have
22 Esprit [ph.], and a lot of the addictions' people
23 are involved in educating the medical profession
24 about this.
25 But I think we need to do more, even.
194 1 I think we need to get out there and try to
2 convince the medical profession that this is a
3 health issue; that they need to get on board, they
4 need to have the knowledge, they need to have the
5 wherewithal to do the referrals and to have people
6 treated.
7 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you.
8 [Applause.]
9 DR. JAMES DOLAN: On that point, and
10 consistent with what we were talking about earlier
11 about the importance of destigmatizing this work
12 that we do, and destigmatizing the fact that one
13 might have a substance-abuse condition, this
14 issue -- or, this service should be incorporated, or
15 as I said earlier, integrated, into the general
16 physical health care that is delivered to our
17 clientele.
18 That would be one of the easiest ways to
19 destigmatize the delivery of this care; that one
20 doesn't have to go to a discreetly located
21 chemical-dependency program. That they can receive
22 that service at a primary-care center, where the
23 chemical-dependency service, and even the
24 mental-health services, is integrated into the
25 general physical health care.
195 1 The question, or the issue, about how to
2 attain emotional, and maintain emotional, wellness
3 should be a part of any wellness-promotion effort
4 that we are a part of as a treating community.
5 SENATOR MARTINS: Yes, Arthur.
6 ARTHUR MURR: It is all about the stigma,
7 though. When you bring it down to it, that's what
8 it is.
9 If it were, if your child could potentially
10 have diabetes, nobody would have a problem with
11 having them tested. If they thought they were going
12 to have a child with -- nobody would have a problem
13 with it.
14 It's, this; it's this situation. It's
15 this -- that, keep it under the covers, don't say
16 anything about it. Don't do -- not don't do
17 anything about it, but, keep it under the covers.
18 Don't make it widely available.
19 If you remove the stigma, suddenly, it
20 becomes part of your general health. It becomes
21 part of what you normally are going to do. You're
22 going to find out how your child is.
23 You give blood today. If you go to a blood
24 bank and you give blood today, they test you for
25 AIDS. You signed a consent on that. You get tested
196 1 for AIDS. You get tested for all about sorts of
2 things. They will tell you if you have anything.
3 You go to a doctor, your kid has a physical,
4 and nobody's gonna test them for whatever else?
5 They may tell you you have diabetes, but they
6 won't tell you that he's on -- that he's sniffing
7 glue, or doing something else?
8 It's just -- it's crazy.
9 We were -- we used to find doctors, when we
10 would go, if we had something, and they would check
11 him. They wouldn't even ask for his consent. They
12 knew -- you know, it's amazing, when you talk to
13 somebody and you get personal with them, you get a
14 different reaction, than if you walk in and just --
15 you know, as like patient -- doctor-patient, you
16 know, you get close, you try to understand, they try
17 to understand you, they hear what your story is,
18 they hear what's going on.
19 Suddenly, the world kind of opens up and
20 they're willing to do things.
21 I mean, if Matt ever went into a hospital for
22 something, we'd go up to them and say: He's got a
23 substance-abuse problem. Be careful what you're
24 giving him, be careful what's going on.
25 You know, and they said: No problem, we'll
197 1 be careful about that we. We -- and thanks for
2 telling us. We're gonna do that.
3 You have to get personal with them.
4 You shouldn't have to do that. It should be
5 part of the general course of events, but, that's
6 what we wound up having to do: you'd have to get
7 personal with the doctor or somebody else who would
8 do something to help you.
9 Were they risking something on their own?
10 Yes, they were.
11 But they also were compassionate, and they
12 felt that it was important to do.
13 SENATOR MARTINS: So the issue is: If we
14 look at --
15 ARTHUR MURR: As a --
16 SENATOR MARTINS: -- this as a mainstream --
17 ARTHUR MURR: Correct.
18 SENATOR MARTINS: -- health issue, like,
19 high blood pressure, cholesterol.
20 ARTHUR MURR: Right.
21 SENATOR MARTINS: -- diabetes, any of the
22 other health issues that we would want our
23 health-care provider to, not only identify, but then
24 to provide access to different modalities.
25 ARTHUR MURR: Suddenly, the barrier goes
198 1 away.
2 SENATOR MARTINS: And then there is no --
3 there is no reason why we would differentiate
4 between one and the other --
5 ARTHUR MURR: Right.
6 SENATOR MARTINS: -- because if it is health
7 issue, then it should be treated like any other
8 health issue.
9 ARTHUR MURR: Right, the barriers go away.
10 Suddenly, it's becoming -- it's part of your general
11 society. It's part of what you -- what generally
12 happens.
13 I mean, think about -- think about AIDS.
14 Nobody was going to -- nobody wanted to know
15 if this was going on. This was that whole thing,
16 "under the cover."
17 Okay, that's part of general society right
18 now. Okay?
19 People -- you can get tested for it, you can
20 have this, it's not a question.
21 This, there's still a question.
22 This, there's still a stigma.
23 This, people go, "Ah, no, no."
24 That's wrong.
25 SENATOR MARTINS: And there's plenty of
199 1 opportunity to intervene and to get help --
2 ARTHUR MURR: [Unintelligible.]
3 SENATOR MARTINS: -- and provide help to a
4 person who is on the wrong path when it comes to
5 substance abuse.
6 There's an opportunity to intercede much
7 earlier point along that path, where the
8 opportunities for recovery are so much surer.
9 ARTHUR MURR: And it's not just -- and it's
10 not just the early ones.
11 I mean, we all about talk about it. You
12 know, are we -- the kids, the -- and, you know,
13 believe me, you have to go education -- you have to
14 educate the kids. You have to do all that.
15 But, you know, my son was 18.
16 I mean, I've heard parents, you know, their
17 kids -- their children, quote/unquote, are 23, 25.
18 They need it just as much. They don't have the
19 education. They need it just as much.
20 And that help is there.
21 You know, it could be from a loved one from
22 them, it could be from a parent, it could be from
23 anybody.
24 It just should be part of the general health
25 of what goes on in your society.
200 1 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you.
2 You know, we have a question here regarding
3 sober homes, recovery homes, and the need for the
4 State to do more in terms of providing, not only
5 oversight, but regulations, having to do with --
6 with recovery homes.
7 How should we do that?
8 What are things that the State can do, that
9 perhaps it isn't doing right now, that would take us
10 in a direction that would provide some real -- some
11 real relief, and some opportunities, you know, to
12 make a difference?
13 Anthony Rizzuto, what do you think?
14 ANTHONY RIZZUTO: I think that, you know,
15 historically, they -- OASAS really hasn't wanted to
16 have too much to do with it, with the relief being,
17 that we are a -- we don't license sober homes.
18 That's not treatment. We oversee treatment and
19 prevention.
20 But I think that it would be beneficial in
21 many areas, because if you have some kind of
22 oversight, the chances of people complying with
23 certain criterias and certain guidelines would be
24 much more readily.
25 So, I think that -- I don't know exactly why;
201 1 I know we've had this conversation a couple of
2 times, and money came up as an issue. "We don't
3 have the staff to be able to do that."
4 But if you take a look at what's going on
5 right now with sober homes, and not just in
6 Long Island, go into the five borough, it is scary
7 with what's happening.
8 So, as we spoke about it earlier, it being a
9 crucial part of the continuum, and being able to put
10 people in an environment where they didn't have to
11 worry about opening up a refrigerator and there
12 being a beer in there, or they didn't have to worry
13 about the person that's living in the house with
14 them smoking crack, or doing whatever it is that
15 they're doing.
16 So I think that, I've heard about that push.
17 And I know Senator Zeldin -- not Senator Zeldin --
18 yes, Senator Zeldin, I believe, had put forward some
19 legislation with that.
20 I don't know exactly where it is. I know
21 that there has been some discussion on it.
22 I know it hasn't been received too well, in
23 terms of -- from OASAS, at least what I've heard.
24 So I would say that it would be something
25 that would be beneficial, because it would put
202 1 people -- there would be oversight to it, and there
2 would be certain criteria in place.
3 SENATOR MARTINS: Steve Margolies, what do
4 you think?
5 STEVE MARGOLIES: I think -- I actually
6 agree.
7 I think one of the issues with sober homes is
8 that, you know, from -- and we refer a lot of
9 clients through -- from -- to sober homes from our
10 programs. But one of the main issues is, there is
11 no centralized oversight, there's no regulations.
12 And while some are very well-intended, and
13 some are excellent, some really do good work, it
14 opens it up for all about sorts of things to happen.
15 It can be misuse of funds. There can be
16 people that are doing it to try to just, you know,
17 make a quick buck.
18 And on the other end of it, there is no core
19 curriculum, there is no set regulation, of what
20 happens in a sober home, and how it's overseen.
21 So I think, you know, putting that in place
22 would actually, at least standardize, so we know
23 what the expectation is when somebody is gonna be
24 referred to a sober home: You're gonna get a, b, c,
25 and d.
203 1 Maybe it's tied into an outpatient program,
2 or something, but I think that the lack of
3 standardization and the lack of regulation has
4 actually -- has made it this sort of nebulous area
5 that no one can quantify and say, This is what it
6 is.
7 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you.
8 Senator Boyle.
9 SENATOR BOYLE: I think Anthony and Steve
10 were very diplomatic in saying that OASAS doesn't
11 want anything to do with regulating these sober home
12 or recovery homes.
13 [Applause.]
14 SENATOR BOYLE: I'm a co-sponsor of
15 Senator Zeldin's bill, and I have been involved with
16 numerous meeting on this topic. And I can tell you,
17 as someone who -- I'm fairly new to the Senate, but
18 served in the State Assembly for a number of years,
19 and saw in the district that I represented,
20 sober homes, in certain communities, where,
21 basically, these people came in, bought a house,
22 packed 30 people, or more, into the home, took their
23 social services money, their Medicaid, and paid off
24 the mortgage in less than three years. They were
25 much more interested in making the money than
204 1 helping these people who needed treatment.
2 And I do think that we need to pass
3 legislation. It is a tough -- a tough situation
4 because we need to negotiate how it's going to work,
5 but, these homes do need to be regulated, and good
6 organizations, like Seafield and others, do the
7 right things in terms of treatment, and providing a
8 safe, a protective environment, for people with
9 addiction needs.
10 The way it's going to happen, the
11 legislation's not there yet, but I can promise you
12 that, as part of this Task Force, we're gonna take a
13 serious look at that.
14 Thank you.
15 [Applause.]
16 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you.
17 Yes, Doctor.
18 DR. FRANK DOWLING: If I could, I wanted to
19 make a brief comment about this.
20 The sober homes, everything that's been said
21 so far, I agree, but, another area that I don't
22 think people may be as aware of, there's a whole
23 system of supported housing for people with chronic
24 psychiatric illnesses.
25 And, one of the common obstacles is, these
205 1 homes will have, as entry criteria, you cannot have
2 a substance-use disorder, or, you must be drug- and
3 alcohol-free for six months.
4 Well, half or more, and it's likely more than
5 just half, of anyone with a chronic psychiatric
6 illness, and this is not just schizophrenia, it's a
7 psychotic illness -- bipolar depression, et cetera,
8 posttraumatic stress -- have a substance-use
9 disorder.
10 A person can't get sober unless the whole
11 package is together.
12 So one of the things that needs to happen,
13 it's not just what we're talking about with
14 sober houses, in my opinion, and I respect that some
15 would disagree strongly with me, there should be no
16 Office of Mental Health-funded housing that does not
17 accept people with a substance-use disorder, and
18 there should be no automatic "you must be sober for
19 six months."
20 It should only be: Are you sober today, or
21 some reasonable period of time, and are you
22 addressing it in your plan of care?
23 [Applause.]
24 DR. FRANK DOWLING: But, when we were talking
25 about drug screening before, I'm the medical
206 1 director of a clinic for people with chronic
2 psychiatric illnesses, and, we'll get drug
3 screening, and we tell people outright, We're never
4 gonna fire you as a patient because there's a
5 positive. We just want to know, because we know if
6 you're using, it's hard to be totally honest with
7 us.
8 But we're afraid that someone from the
9 residence is gonna press them to get the results,
10 and if there's a positive, will throw them out.
11 So, that type of thing needs to change in the
12 housing, wherever it is, in this whole spectrum of
13 addiction and psychiatric illnesses.
14 SENATOR MARTINS: And isn't that -- isn't
15 that part of what we just discussed: the transition
16 from addiction as a law-enforcement issue, to a
17 health issue?
18 And as we transition from law enforcement to
19 health, perhaps people will be more forthright and
20 welcoming of the help that they'll be able to get in
21 the health-care context, and less concerned about
22 the -- the -- you know, the legalities and the
23 illegalities associated, and the penalties
24 associated, with the drug use.
25 STEVE MARGOLIES: I was just going to add,
207 1 the other thing I think we need to see change in,
2 there is talk about changing regulations for certain
3 treatment programs, to allow services to be provided
4 outside the treatment program.
5 And every other, basically, you know, OMH,
6 OPWDD, there's provisions to allow case management
7 or services in the home or in the field.
8 And our field, substance-abuse treatment
9 specifically, does not have that right now.
10 And I think that, if you're talking about
11 putting people in stable environments and housing,
12 it's essential that we also have the ability to
13 provide services at those sites, to meet people
14 where they are, rather than just wait for them to
15 come in to see us.
16 I know there's some talk about doing this
17 very soon, but I'd like to see it move ahead sooner
18 than later.
19 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you.
20 Thank you very much.
21 You know, I have a -- there's a comment here,
22 from Claudia Friesel [ph.]
23 Claudia?
24 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: She's left.
25 SENATOR MARTINS: She did.
208 1 Then let me -- I will paraphrase, because
2 it's valid. You know, we've all about been down
3 this road before, and Claudia asks, you know:
4 Once the hype around heroin abuse goes away,
5 how do we know that this Task Force is actually
6 going to stick around, and, is committed to getting
7 this done?
8 It's the natural question at an event like
9 this: How do we know that there's gonna be
10 follow-through?
11 Let me just say that, Senator Boyle's
12 Committee and the Task Force has set June 1st as the
13 deadline for recommendations.
14 Not a year from now, not 2 years from now;
15 literally, less than two months from now, which
16 gives us all about an opportunity, in less than
17 2 months, after 12 hearings during the next, less
18 than 60 days, to evaluate that plan, hopefully,
19 support the recommendations of the Task Force in our
20 individual capacities and in our community
21 capacities back home, to ensure that the
22 recommendations there will be able to be acted upon,
23 and have the necessary consensus around them, so
24 that as we approach the end of session, there is
25 real opportunity for us to do something special,
209 1 based on the recommendations and the suggestions
2 that we've heard, not only from the panel, but
3 certainly from the audience as well.
4 So I think if there's anything that I can say
5 to that point, is, there's a very short timeline
6 here, and that the recommendations that are gonna be
7 made are going to be far longer lasting and far more
8 important, you know, than the 2-year or 2-month or
9 20-year timeline that we have.
10 It's a two-month time line, we have plenty of
11 time to do it. We're gonna need everyone's help to
12 make sure that we pass, and have the necessary
13 consensus, and political consensus, to get this
14 done.
15 ELIZABETH SKOYAN [ph.]: I have an FYI,
16 [inaudible --]
17 SENATOR MARTINS: Why don't we do this, just
18 in fairness, because -- and I -- Elizabeth, I do
19 appreciate it.
20 When we -- if we have room at the end,
21 I will -- I promise you I'll circle back to you.
22 ELIZABETH SKOYAN [ph.]: No, it's the
23 petition --
24 SENATOR MARTINS: No, I understand, but we'll
25 come back, because part of this process is a
210 1 give-and-take.
2 It's not only educational, but it's the
3 give-and-take, and the opportunity to go through
4 these questions, and allow for these panelists to be
5 able to offer their opinion, so that we can,
6 hopefully, craft some legislation.
7 Dr. Reynolds, do you feel that there's an
8 area where we are lacking in the treatment programs?
9 Once we have an addict in our care, how can
10 we more adequately serve them, that they may achieve
11 a full recovery?
12 Broad question.
13 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: Awesome.
14 SENATOR MARTINS: Run with it.
15 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: So, look, before I --
16 there's a couple things that I would say, and one of
17 them relates to the time frame that you just
18 outlined.
19 So, if there's a report that's gonna come out
20 on June 1st, which, of course, is ambitious,
21 I worry, because you guys are all about going home
22 come June 19th, God willing.
23 And I will tell you, that when it comes to
24 this insurance bill, we all can't wait another year.
25 And so I would say, to the extent that you
211 1 can speed up this process, I think you have
2 consensus in this room --
3 [Applause.]
4 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: -- and perhaps among
5 your colleague, we gotta get it done.
6 I can't imagine us going through another year
7 without that in place.
8 But here's what we know:
9 You know, Senator Hannon made some comments
10 earlier about, you know, figuring out what works,
11 and kind of this being a new landscape.
12 In reality, we know a lot about treatment,
13 and we know a lot about how treatment works. There
14 are very clear criteria when we place patients.
15 There's a heavy-duty science base when it comes to
16 treatment.
17 We know that the timeliness of the
18 intervention makes a big difference. We know that
19 matching somebody's treatment with where they're at,
20 in terms of their disease process, is absolutely
21 critical.
22 And more than anything, we know that an
23 adequate duration of time, and adequate dose, if you
24 will, are absolutely critical to somebody's success.
25 At the same time, we know that we can treat
212 1 patients until the end of the day.
2 Unless we're addressing the needs of
3 families, we're only doing half the job.
4 [Applause.]
5 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: And almost all of the
6 funding streams and reimbursement mechanisms are
7 patient-focused.
8 And so we go out to families, and we make a
9 very nice-looking referral list, and we throw them
10 at them and say: Here are the referrals, here are
11 the referrals.
12 And there's a dozen treatment centers on
13 there.
14 And if their kid says, "I'm not going,"
15 they're back to square one.
16 So -- and a lot of those services have not
17 expanded over time; they've eroded over time.
18 So I'd say, look, involve the family. Make
19 sure we're getting folks the care they need. Make
20 sure there's the follow-up.
21 And the issue about sober housing is
22 absolutely critical. It's part of the treatment
23 continuum.
24 So, there's a couple of things there. Let's
25 make sure that we're doing it the right way.
213 1 I will tell you, it's my belief, that
2 treatment is less accessible today than it was
3 four years ago. It's less accessible today than it
4 was one year ago.
5 And the one thing we tell families, is that
6 nothing changes if nothing changes.
7 We haven't made a significant change in the
8 way we do treatment with folks in a very long time.
9 We gotta do that.
10 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you.
11 Yes, Doctor.
12 DR. JAMES DOLAN: I think it's also important
13 to pick up on the comments I made at the
14 introductory stage of this Task Force meeting, is
15 that it's almost -- like, we have to almost use --
16 move away from the idea of chemical-dependency
17 disorders and mental-health disorders being viewed
18 as separately.
19 We should be referring to them as
20 "behavioral-health disorders."
21 I had a judge reach out to me the other day,
22 and was asking me: What do I do in the instance,
23 when I have a 24-year-old attorney, just out of law
24 school, who's telling me that the person is in
25 chemical-dependency treatment and they're doing
214 1 fine, and, you should give this person a conditional
2 discharge from -- from the centers?
3 Or, we have -- so the point I'm trying to
4 make, is that, we have drug courts in Nassau County:
5 We have misdemeanor drug court. We have felony drug
6 court. We have a mental-health court.
7 So the mental-health court isn't doing
8 toxicology exams on a regular basis.
9 The drug-treatment court isn't doing
10 comprehensive mental-health examinations, reviews,
11 assessments, consistently.
12 The judges want one place to go, where the
13 entire -- where the full person's needs are going to
14 be addressed in one shot in a behavioral-health
15 court.
16 So, that's an initiative we would like to see
17 get off the ground in Nassau County, when it was
18 mentioned earlier.
19 And I think, throughout the state, that kind
20 of initiative should be supported.
21 The idea that people with serious mental
22 illness, or even non-serious forms of mental
23 illness, have co-occurring disorders, and are going
24 to be applying for housing, that's a given.
25 The high percentage of individuals with
215 1 psychiatric symptoms are going to have co-occurring
2 disorders.
3 So what happened in terms of the sober homes,
4 is that OASAS didn't pick up the ball in that
5 regard, in terms of the importance of providing for
6 safe, stable supportive housing that promotes the
7 recovery process, so a void was created, which led
8 to the proliferation of the sober homes.
9 The mental-health system did not choose to go
10 that route. They're very much -- they licensed,
11 they fund, housing options of various types,
12 depending upon where the person is in their recovery
13 process.
14 So, there's a model there for the OASAS
15 chemical-dependency community to follow.
16 And it shouldn't be, as was mentioned
17 earlier, if you have a co-occurring condition, that
18 there's going to be more -- it's gonna be more
19 difficult to get into that program or into that
20 housing situation.
21 If a person has a behavioral-health disorder,
22 that should be the criteria for admission.
23 Thank you.
24 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you.
25 I have a question here from Nora, who has --
216 1 NORA: [Inaudible.]
2 SENATOR MARTINS: Pardon?
3 NORA: [Inaudible.]
4 SENATOR MARTINS: Please.
5 NORA: Hi, my name's Nora.
6 Uhm, I just want to thank everybody that's on
7 the panel, and everybody that's come out today.
8 My son is a recovering heroin addict. We've
9 been fighting this disease -- I say "we," because
10 it's a family disease and a family recovery -- since
11 he's 15 years old.
12 And I'm listening to about multifaceted, and
13 I'm saying, "It's amazing," because every person on
14 this panel, in some way, shape, or form, has either
15 directly affected his recovery process, or
16 indirectly by the people that you represent, the
17 schools.
18 He's been in every -- every program out
19 there -- Outreach, Phoenix House -- every single
20 one, right down to the Sheriff's corrections office,
21 he's been there, too.
22 [Laughter.]
23 NORA: And I'm happy to say that, today,
24 he's, uhm -- he's 63 days clean, and he's alive, and
25 in a program.
217 1 [Applause.]
2 NORA: And I have so much gratitude for that.
3 And even right down to Mr. and Mrs. Murr,
4 parents like you showed me that this was a disease,
5 not good or bad -- we gotta get away from those
6 words -- and helped me to understand the urgency in
7 getting him care.
8 And so I fight. I'm a fighter.
9 And I really just want to address a question
10 to Senator Boyle.
11 13 months ago, my son was hospitalized. He
12 tried to stop using on his own, and he suffers
13 symptoms due to that, he was hospitalized for that.
14 And as Dr. Reynolds had elaborated earlier,
15 this is like a parent's dream, when your kid finally
16 hits a bottom and says, "I want to go to treatment."
17 Before that, every treatment he had been
18 to -- Phoenix House, Outreach -- they were all
19 mandated. I went through PINS, I went through all
20 those things.
21 And, yes, when your kid is 15, you can't make
22 them just go. You have to go through certain stages
23 to get them.
24 And I did those stages, and I would get him
25 there, and he didn't want to stay. And he would
218 1 complete, and he would leave, and he would use.
2 And it's a progressive, fatal disease, and it
3 progressed.
4 And he was in this hospital bed, he had
5 suffered a seizure, he had had withdrawals, and
6 I thought, Yes, we're there.
7 And to date, no insurance company had paid
8 for any of his treatment. I paid for everything.
9 Long-term coverage is not paid for by your
10 insurance company, I don't care.
11 There are parents here that I know, they
12 would pay with two houses, bankruptcy, like I have,
13 just to have a day back with their kid.
14 And I'm very aware of that, and I don't care
15 it's gone.
16 But here he is in this hospital bed, and he's
17 calling. He called 14 inpatient programs, and the
18 first thing they said was: What's your insurance
19 carrier?
20 And he said, "Fidelis Managed Care," because,
21 by now, he's a Medicaid patient. He's over the age
22 of 18, my funds are gone.
23 And so I think, Ah, he's gonna get care.
24 They wouldn't even do the intake.
25 "No, you won't get approved."
219 1 "Oh, you won't get approved."
2 So the long story short is, we finally found
3 one that would at least do the process.
4 He went through the process, they accepted
5 him, but when we posed it to the insurance company,
6 they denied. They said he didn't meet medical
7 necessity.
8 And I'm getting to my question.
9 So I said, This is ridiculous.
10 I went to the doctor, and I had the doctor
11 call and appeal; the bedside doctor who's treating
12 my son: Please call this, this insurance company,
13 and speak to their medical officer, who, by the way,
14 has no training in addiction whatsoever, but he's
15 the one making the life-and-death, "life-and-death,"
16 decision over my son's life.
17 And they denied him again, and they streeted
18 him.
19 Subsequently, in next year, in the next
20 eleven months, my son overdosed twice.
21 Thank God for Narcan.
22 Thank you Suffolk County Sheriff's Department
23 that's carrying this lifesaving drug. They
24 resuscitated my son twice.
25 He was incarcerated. Suffered an inhumane
220 1 and painful detox while incarcerated, and I couldn't
2 get him out.
3 Not that I would, even if I could, because he
4 had to go through it.
5 And in the end, he was granted a long-term
6 program, which he's in now, and to date,
7 Fidelis Care has never paid.
8 I took them to court.
9 I said: I want to know these guidelines,
10 this "medical necessity."
11 [Applause.]
12 NORA: And they, finally -- through a court,
13 and they still tried to refuse. They tried to
14 refuse giving me these guidelines, until I had the
15 judge send them a letter, fax them a letter, and
16 stated they had to. Because they denied him, they
17 had to disclose to me the criteria that they used
18 for their medical necessity.
19 And I found out a lot in that process.
20 The biggest thing I found out is, out of all
21 of the insurance companies, each insurance company
22 can make up their own "medical necessity," and they
23 don't have to tell you what it is.
24 So, in the end, when I got this list of
25 "medical necessity," at first, they said they denied
221 1 him because he had received treatment in that year
2 prior, and they felt that another level of treatment
3 would not yield a different result.
4 Which is really kind of in direct conflict
5 with the Parity Act: Well, you've had this much
6 treatment so we're not gonna give you any more.
7 That wasn't acceptable.
8 And so when I took them to court, and I got
9 this "medical necessity," there was 11 criterias,
10 and he met 9 out of the 11. And the two that he
11 didn't meet was, he wasn't pregnant --
12 [Laughter.]
13 NORA: -- and he wasn't homicidal or
14 suicidal.
15 So, if he was homicidal or suicidal, all
16 these great providers up there, not one of them
17 would let him in.
18 So they created a death warrant for my son.
19 So my question is, I'm here:
20 What can we do about this "medical necessity"
21 guidelines? And why can't we take it away from the
22 insurance company?
23 And I applaud the bill.
24 Let's take the power away from the insurance
25 company and give it to that bedside doctor.
222 1 But, also, why can't we take away this
2 various "medical necessity" guidelines, and give
3 one, across the board, This is the
4 "medical necessity." If you meet it, you get
5 treatment, end of story. You qualify, you're in,
6 and you have a chance to live.
7 So, thank you.
8 SENATOR MARTINS: Amen.
9 [Applause.]
10 SENATOR BOYLE: Thank you, Nora.
11 And, you really got to the heart of the whole
12 situation right there. I mean, we've dealt with
13 this "medical necessity" issue and the insurance
14 companies for a number of years now.
15 And I can tell you that, legislation we'd
16 like to come out of this Task Force.
17 I'm not sure about mandating what
18 "medical necessity" can be for the different -- but
19 what I can tell you is, that as a parent, you should
20 have had access to that before you got the
21 insurance.
22 So, you want to make a decision about what
23 insurance company you're looking at, well, I think
24 this "medical necessity" is doable, "I'll choose
25 this company over this one," and that really creates
223 1 the free market.
2 Having -- not finding out until it's too
3 late, is absolutely unacceptable.
4 And, I thank you. And I will certainly bring
5 that up to my colleagues on the Task Force, yeah.
6 NORA: [Inaudible.]
7 SENATOR BOYLE: Absolutely.
8 SENATOR MARTINS: Let me just give you an
9 example, just where this has happened in other areas
10 of the law.
11 We all have -- well, most of us have auto
12 insurance. Right?
13 We have no-fault as part of our auto
14 insurance.
15 In the No-Fault law, there's actually a law
16 that defines what a "serious injury" is, that
17 applies to every automobile insurance policy in
18 New York State.
19 In order to qualify, we have, as a state,
20 defined the term "serious injury" for purposes of
21 access to insurance.
22 And, certainly, to the extent that we have
23 the opportunity to look at a holistic approach
24 towards defining "medical necessity," we'll have the
25 opportunity to do that.
224 1 There's a very similar question, and so
2 I sort of put the two of you together, by
3 Ira Costel [ph.], as to a specific bill that is
4 sponsored by Senator Hannon, that would have
5 insurance companies specifically required to cover
6 treatment as long as the doctor prescribed it.
7 And it goes, I believe, very much to your
8 point about determining what that -- what
9 "medical necessity" is once you have a doctor make
10 that determination.
11 The need for uniformity and for some level of
12 comfort for all of us, I think is important.
13 And, Mr. Costel, not the to steal your
14 thunder, but, thank you for bringing it up.
15 IRA COSTEL [ph.]: No, no problem. Not at
16 all.
17 I want to thank you very much, you know,
18 Nora, for articulating, in the most profound and
19 moving way, what so many people in this audience
20 have experienced themselves.
21 And it's just -- it's gut-wrenching. And,
22 you know, too many families have experienced that.
23 And, so, I really can't say it any much
24 better.
25 And I know, as a co-sponsor of the Senate
225 1 bill, that you're in support of it.
2 I do have a practical question that I want to
3 ask you in a moment, but there's some things, as I'm
4 listening here all today, that I'm not sure --
5 I came in about 20 minutes late, but I've been here
6 the bulk of the day and I'm not sure I've heard it
7 really discussed; and that is, most of the providers
8 up here, well, none of the providers that you'll
9 talk to will take somebody who needs to go through
10 detox first.
11 And that, of course, is, you know, at the
12 crux of the bill.
13 And one of the things, just to amplify on
14 what Dr. Reynolds said, you know, there's fewer
15 and fewer resources around.
16 And I don't know, you know, how many people
17 in this room, but I know that I stayed on the phone,
18 from about 2:00 in the afternoon until 3:00 in the
19 morning, helping my brother go from Quanticut [ph.]
20 in Hampton Bays, to Long Beach, to Nassau Medical
21 Center, trying to find a bed for my nephew David,
22 and being turned away, because there just were no
23 beds.
24 People didn't realize you need a reservation
25 to get into detox.
226 1 [Laughter.]
2 IRA COSTEL [ph.]: And there are now fewer
3 beds than there were six or seven years ago when my
4 brother was experiencing that nightmare, when you
5 finally have a child who's come to their knees and
6 said, "I need help, I'm willing."
7 You know, a parent, who's never been
8 educated, has no idea, but they call somebody, and
9 they check with somebody that they think knows, and
10 they'll run around and they'll do the circuit, only
11 to be turned away.
12 And my brother's child went back out for
13 another year and a half run after that, you know.
14 And, thank God, he did find a few months of
15 sobriety, you know.
16 But as I've said in many public forums
17 before, we all need to be mindful, as parents, and
18 legislators, and concerned citizens, you know, that
19 relapse definitely is a major component of this
20 disease, but as we all know, relapse can be the end
21 of your story, not just part of your story as a
22 recovering addict.
23 And, unfortunately, like too many other
24 people, you know, my family experienced that. And
25 my nephew, just two months shy of his
227 1 23rd birthday, was found dead in his own basement,
2 you know, by my sister-in-law.
3 But the point being, really, you know, the
4 parents are suffering out there, families are
5 suffering, so I appreciate your support for this
6 bill.
7 I have -- so -- but we need to talk about
8 more beds. How do we get more funding?
9 I haven't heard that discussed yet today in,
10 really, any consequential way: What funding stream
11 is available, to make sure?
12 I mean, we lost Long Beach due to
13 "Hurricane Sandy." There were beds that were lost
14 there, you know.
15 And then, just a few short months ago,
16 I became very close with my nephew's sponsor, and we
17 stayed friends. And after six or so years of
18 recovery, he relapsed over the summer.
19 And every day my heart was in my throat,
20 knowing he was shooting 10 bags of dope a day, you
21 know, thinking, that he knew what he needed to do,
22 but he just couldn't bring himself to do it.
23 And, thankfully, you know, I -- you never
24 know what when the next day can be the last day, in
25 this business, you know.
228 1 And you are, very directly, in the business
2 of saving lives. Very directly, every day.
3 And this bill can help.
4 But, the point that I experienced that was a
5 nightmare, was, he finally, 3 1/2 months ago, said:
6 Okay, I'm ready.
7 You know, he went in on to Nassau Medical
8 Center. They were prescribing him lower doses of,
9 you know, methadone than he physically felt capable
10 of handling.
11 Because they say you can't die from being
12 dope-sick, you only wish you could.
13 Okay?
14 So, he came out after 24 hours.
15 But, anyway, a couple of months later, he was
16 ready to go again. We went to South Oaks. And
17 I sat for 4 1/2 hours, while the insurance company
18 was saying this was not medically necessary, as
19 we've all about heard.
20 They said: You can go to outpatient and take
21 Suboxone.
22 He said: I'm ready to get off of drugs.
23 I don't want to go on another drug. So I'm gonna go
24 home and shoot up.
25 And it was only by his own smarts, that made
229 1 him lie, and say, "Oh, I've been taking Xanax, too,"
2 that they were able to take him and gave him
3 four days.
4 And, thankfully, he's got 97 days today.
5 [Applause.]
6 IRA COSTEL [ph.]: So this was -- this is
7 just insanity.
8 This is insanity.
9 I mean, you know, the kid is shooting poison
10 into his veins, and they say this is not medically
11 necessary.
12 I mean, the world's upside down.
13 So just two things:
14 One: Can we start talking about, How do we
15 get more beds for people in detox?
16 Because you can't get into rehab until you've
17 detoxed.
18 Number one.
19 [Applause.]
20 IRA COSTEL [ph.]: And, number two:
21 I know you're on board.
22 And as Dr. Reynolds says, we can't -- you
23 know, next session. We'll get it to next session.
24 Well, next session, in the four hours that
25 we've been here, there have been 20 more people
230 1 across the United States who have died of
2 prescription overdose, just in these four hours.
3 Every day, there are people dying.
4 So what can we do, as concerned citizens, and
5 what can you do as a legislator, to ensure passage
6 this session of this bill?
7 Thank you.
8 [Applause.]
9 SENATOR BOYLE: I very, very much appreciate
10 that.
11 And I would say that, what you can do as
12 advocates, obviously, being here today, and
13 participating, and the panelists.
14 When we have this report, and come out with
15 some proposed pieces of legislation, to advocate,
16 call your Assembly person, call your Senator. And,
17 if you have a cousin upstate in Syracuse, and an old
18 college buddy in Buffalo, have them call their
19 Senate and their Assembly to support passage of this
20 piece of legislation.
21 And I will say this, that Jeff is right, that
22 it's an ambitious agenda to get this passed, from
23 the time, we'll have, like, three weeks, maybe, to
24 get these bills passed.
25 I believe we can do the most of them in the
231 1 Senate.
2 But if we don't; if, in the rush at the end
3 of session, we do not get this passed, what I would
4 like you to do is, join me in a call for
5 Governor Cuomo to call a special session of the
6 Legislature, to deal specifically with the heroin
7 epidemic in New York State.
8 [Applause.]
9 SENATOR BOYLE: We will make sure that we
10 focus on it completely.
11 SENATOR MARTINS: And that, ladies and
12 gentlemen, is the answer.
13 Legislative sessions are finite periods.
14 It doesn't mean that we can't legislate
15 outside of that session, as long as there's a will
16 to do so.
17 You see that will here.
18 And I know that there's a tremendous amount
19 of frustration in the room, on both sides, with the
20 pace. But we're here, and there's a real effort to
21 getting something done in the short term.
22 Let's understand that there's a real
23 opportunity here, because, as people tell me all
24 about the time, you strike while the iron is hot.
25 And, it's hot.
232 1 There's an opportunity right now for us to do
2 something meaningful, long-lasting, structural,
3 that, hopefully, will address many of the issues we
4 have here today.
5 Do I have any illusions at all that we are
6 going to have a perfect resolution where every issue
7 is resolved? No, I don't.
8 Do I have every confidence in the world that
9 we will end up in a much better place than we are
10 right now, because we're going through this process?
11 And the answer is yes.
12 So, I want to thank Senator Boyle for his
13 leadership on this.
14 Stay tuned.
15 We're gonna be here for longer than June,
16 longer than July or August, and certainly for longer
17 than 2014, dealing with this issue.
18 On that point, I have questions, and I have
19 comments, here.
20 Many of these are not questions. They're
21 comments, they're statements.
22 And I understand that everybody in this room
23 would love and like an opportunity to make a
24 statement.
25 I'm asking, if you have questions, ask it,
233 1 because we have wonderful panelists here, where we
2 can flesh out any of these issues.
3 We can probably make room at the end of the
4 session for statements, as people relay their
5 stories and their -- and I think that is important.
6 I'm not downplaying it.
7 But I do want to stick to the Q&A portion of
8 this, because it's through that Q&A that we're going
9 to have the opportunity to try and hopefully
10 influence some items on this legislative card.
11 And one of the questions that came up from
12 Kate Meyer [ph.] has to do with: Yes, let's say
13 that we get that Hannon bill passed, and that we're
14 able to get insurance companies to provide
15 treatment -- there's a question that was just
16 alluded to -- Where are the beds? Where are the
17 facilities?
18 And, sure, if the insurance companies are
19 willing to pick up the freight, even if they're not
20 willing to pick up the freight in the event that
21 there's legislation that requires them to, what do
22 we do, and how do we, marshal resources to make beds
23 available, facilities available, that provide for
24 the kind of intake and treatment that we're looking
25 for?
234 1 There are, by all accounts, tens, if not
2 hundreds of thousands, of people who are going
3 through addiction right now, in the midst of it,
4 trying to cope with it.
5 If we had the ability to have it paid for and
6 funded, where are they to go?
7 How should we be allocating those resources?
8 What kind of facilities should we be looking
9 to build?
10 Is it reasonable to expect that we're going
11 to build thousands, or tens of thousands, or more,
12 recovery homes across Long Island to deal with the
13 need?
14 Is that the model that we should be pursuing,
15 or is there another model that we should be looking
16 at?
17 Not too provocative.
18 Dr. Reynolds, what do you think?
19 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: Look, the insurance
20 companies have made it financially unviable for any
21 provider to expand their beds.
22 Even the not-for-profit providers look and
23 say: This is what the reimbursement rates look
24 like. It's not feasible to expand.
25 If you fix the insurance issues, I think it
235 1 opens up the marketplace a little bit, and, perhaps,
2 brings some new players to the table, and allows the
3 existing providers, who do a really good job, the
4 ability to expand.
5 Secondly, we've got to take a look at some
6 new models.
7 The detox issue has come up again and again
8 and again, and it's spot-on.
9 The insurers believe, and, in fact, some
10 hospitals believe, that opioid detox is not
11 medically dangerous, and they're correct; and,
12 therefore, can be done in outpatient setting.
13 All right, tell that to the parents of a
14 19-year-old who's writhing in pain on the bathroom
15 floor, who's trying to keep that kid wrapped up
16 until they're through the detox. And then, as soon
17 as that detox is done, that kid feel likes he's on
18 top of the world, and in 48 hours, is back to
19 square one.
20 We should have models of care that are not
21 hospitals, but that provide that young person with
22 some supervision and guidance as they go through
23 that process.
24 All right, we have crisis residence called
25 "Talbot House."
236 1 We should be talking about expanding that
2 model of care. We need something in between.
3 We also need, we gotta deal with the
4 sober-home issue.
5 Look, the reality is then, not everybody
6 requires inpatient care. And although the insurers
7 would like you to believe that's where we believe
8 everybody should be, it's not.
9 The outpatient facilities need to be more
10 accessible in communities across Long Island. They
11 need to have longer hours.
12 We need to deal with the waiting lists in a
13 lot of those places.
14 In some places, if you call today, you're
15 gonna get a date three weeks down the line.
16 When it comes to the recovery-housing piece,
17 the fact that it's not regulated is absolutely
18 criminal. It's part of the continuum of care.
19 And along with dealing with regulating it,
20 we've gotta make sure that we're properly financing
21 it.
22 Part of the issue is, that the reimbursement
23 rates given out by local DSS are not enough for
24 folks to do this absolutely correct.
25 And, so, we can take the knowledge from other
237 1 regions and figure out how to do this. The models
2 are there.
3 It's a matter of changing up the game a
4 little bit in New York State.
5 And here's -- this is perhaps going to be, if
6 OASAS is in the room, perhaps the least popular
7 thing I'm going say all about day:
8 It should not take a year to expand an
9 existing facility. It should not take three to
10 five years to go through a licensure process to open
11 up a new facility on Long Island or across
12 New York State.
13 We are at the height of a crisis. It should
14 be easier to open a facility than it is now.
15 And in some states, we've gone to the nth
16 degree and you can open them up in a strip mall in
17 30 minutes.
18 We don't want that. We're not even close to
19 that. But the hurdles that folks have to jump
20 through to add beds or add slots in this region and
21 elsewhere across New York State is crazy at the
22 height of what we're dealing with.
23 Make it easier.
24 SENATOR MARTINS: Point well made.
25 But let me ask you:
238 1 You know, in the context of treatment, and
2 we've heard already previously today, issues about a
3 child being in a certain environment, and the
4 concerns about outpatient care, keeping that child
5 or that young adult in that same environment, and
6 the need to remove them from that environment.
7 So if we don't do it through recovery homes,
8 so we don't do it through removing that person from
9 their environment and putting them in a care
10 facility, that provides them with that necessary
11 shield, you know, how else can we do it?
12 Is it realistic to expect that we're gonna be
13 able to do it in the community, with the same
14 factors and the same experiences surrounding that
15 person that we're trying to remove them from?
16 Or, do we then start talking about schools,
17 and the types of schools, and the kinds of
18 environments, that we need to?
19 And, then, do we have a progressive
20 discussion on where we need to be, not only with
21 regard to removing them and putting them in recovery
22 homes, but, building schools that are appropriate to
23 that group?
24 Isn't that part of this discussion, and how
25 we're going to invest in making sure that they do
239 1 not fall back into that same cycle?
2 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: Yeah, so I'm gonna say
3 stay a couple of thing, and then punt to Kim,
4 because I know she's dying to weigh in on this.
5 SENATOR MARTINS: I noticed that.
6 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: So, here, let me say
7 this:
8 I think you're exactly right.
9 We talk about the fact that we can't pull
10 every kid, right, out of the community and say:
11 We're gonna put you in a bubble and protect you.
12 We've gotta change the communities and change
13 the schools, and in some cases, educate parents.
14 I have parents, every day, who ask me very
15 basic questions.
16 "When my kid comes out of rehab, is it still
17 okay to drink a glass of wine with dinner?"
18 That kind of thing.
19 So we've gotta make this a community that's
20 safe for kids in recovery, so they can be who they
21 are and be proud of their recovery.
22 On the financial piece, and you mentioned
23 that, I think, tangentally, what I would say is,
24 while I recognize that resources are limited, we're
25 spending the money anyway.
240 1 We're giving the money to landlords who are
2 wrecking people's recovery and blowing our
3 investment of treatment.
4 And we're spending on jails, we're spending
5 it on POs, we're spending it on petty crime.
6 We are spending the dollars anyway, and at
7 the same time, losing a lot of kids.
8 So, the dollar-side a piece, reframing our
9 communities and making safer -- making them safer so
10 that kids can stay, I think is the heart and soul of
11 what Kim does.
12 KYM LAUBE: Absolutely. You know, and I'll
13 add on that --
14 SENATOR MARTINS: Kym Laube.
15 KYM LAUBE: -- you know, for every dollar we
16 spend in prevention, we do save 10 to 22 on the
17 treatment side of the world. And we absolutely need
18 treatment, and we need better access to care, and we
19 need to do it smarter.
20 When it comes to prevention, and the
21 partnership that needs to come into this
22 conversation, is -- is simple policy -- What's the
23 policy in communities? What are the policies in
24 schools? What are the policies in families? What
25 are policies in individuals? -- and begin to
241 1 strengthen them.
2 See, part of the problem or the challenge
3 that I have is, you know, we -- and Anthony knows
4 I'll always we say this, we continue to blame the
5 fish for getting sick after swimming in a polluted
6 pond.
7 And it's really up to us now, at this point,
8 to figure out why the pond's so darned polluted in
9 the first place, you know, and begin to take a look
10 at, What are those changes we can make?
11 I got a call -- I got an e-mail last night
12 from an outraged parent who took her kids to go see
13 the new "Muppets Movie."
14 And as she sat there watching the previews,
15 there's a whole "Monsters, Inc." video that goes
16 on -- and "Monsters, Inc.," incredibly love it --
17 but it's all about "Monsters, Inc.," and how they're
18 at a keg party now on a college campus.
19 So she's sitting here with her seven and her
20 eighth -- you know, her 7-year-old and her
21 9-year-old and her 11-year-old, going to enjoy a
22 family moment; and, yet, she's being saturated and
23 bombarded by messaging of using substances to have
24 fun.
25 So my challenge, when we begin this --
242 1 continue this dialogue, is, you know, we need to
2 give -- we need to give parents the tools to create
3 those healthier environments to begin.
4 We tell kids all about the time, have fun
5 without using substances, but we fail to show them
6 how to do that sometimes, you know.
7 We need to be those role models and those
8 folks who are taking a stand.
9 And I encourage adults, any adults -- whether
10 you're a mom, a dad, a parent, you know, an uncle,
11 an aunt, a Godmother, a teacher -- throw one party a
12 year where the alcohol's not on at the table, and
13 have a blast, have a grand old time.
14 You know, when we take a look a family
15 policy, this needs to be very much part of the
16 discussion.
17 Just as going to church may be a policy in
18 your family; or, we're just kind to each other; or,
19 in this family, you have to wear your seatbelt; in
20 this family, you have to put on sunblock.
21 Those are health policies; and, again, going
22 back to this being part of the discussion.
23 So, yep, there's many challenges we have with
24 treatment. Many.
25 And -- and we need to do things smarter, and
243 1 get folks the care that they need.
2 And -- and, part of that dialogue, as
3 discussed today, must also be part of this changing:
4 changing those school policies, changing family
5 policies, changing individual policies, and
6 straightening -- strengthening those.
7 So, that, it's about that population-level
8 change, that community-level change, and it is no
9 longer normalized and just simply accepted because
10 we've done it for so many years.
11 Because, quite frankly, the adults in the
12 room, many of us, you know, I hear parents say:
13 Well, we did it and we were fine.
14 And the truth of us, many of us didn't come
15 out okay, you know, and many of us didn't make it,
16 and some of us still suffer to this day as a result.
17 And the game has changed. It's a different
18 game today.
19 And, so, our education must change to go
20 along with that, our response must change to go
21 along with that, and, the promptness and quickness
22 and the effectiveness needs to change right along,
23 because it is a different game today.
24 [Applause.]
25 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you.
244 1 Senator Boyle, you have a Narcan training
2 program on April 22nd.
3 Why don't you just give us a brief overview
4 of what it is, and why it's important.
5 SENATOR BOYLE: Yeah, we are gonna host it at
6 the Deer Park Fire Department, April 22nd, from 6 to
7 7 pm. It's at 94 Lake Avenue in Deer Park.
8 All about you need to do is, please call our
9 district office at 665-2311, and talk to
10 Stevey [ph.]
11 I don't know if Stevey's here.
12 Many of you know Stevey. She's been our
13 front person on my committee for Heroin Task Force.
14 And, she suffered the tragic loss of her
15 sister with an overdose last year, and is personally
16 committed, and her entire family is, to helping us
17 on this issue.
18 You can RSVP to Stevey.
19 We have quite a number of people that have
20 already signed up.
21 It's very short. I've taken the class
22 myself. It's about 45 minutes, and then you'll also
23 leave with a Narcan kit, and, we can help save
24 lives, and spread the word that everyone should have
25 Narcan in their home, and use it.
245 1 Hopefully, never have to use it, but when it
2 is there, it will save lives.
3 Thank you, Jack.
4 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you.
5 [Applause.]
6 DENISE MURR: Carry it around in your
7 pocketbook, your car.
8 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Bring it to school.
9 SENATOR BOYLE: We're trying to make it as
10 far and wide as possible.
11 Certainly, the police -- and one of things
12 you're seeing in certain areas of the state, the
13 firefighters, the police officers, arguing about who
14 who's gonna use it.
15 Everyone should have it available: volunteer
16 firefighters, police officers, teachers, parents,
17 kids...whomever.
18 As many as we can get out there, we will.
19 SENATOR MARTINS: Alongside our
20 defibrillators, there should be a Narcan pack, as
21 well.
22 SENATOR BOYLE: Absolutely.
23 SENATOR MARTINS: And I want to thank again,
24 Eden Laikin, for having facilitated my having taken
25 that class as well.
246 1 [Applause.]
2 SENATOR MARTINS: I have a question for
3 Tom Willdigg, who's been patiently sitting here.
4 As a Nassau County -- retired Nassau County
5 detective, president of the detectives association,
6 I know how hard you worked with youth, and what a
7 priority you made in working with youth.
8 What can law enforcement do to more
9 adequately teach young people about, you know,
10 the -- the -- well, the concerns we have, and the
11 trap that is drug addiction?
12 How do you get to them?
13 How do you get them -- as a law-enforcement
14 official, not just from the arrest, not just from
15 the penal standpoint, but from being, you know, the
16 local police officer interacting with youth in our
17 communities, in our schools, how do you get them?
18 How do we help?
19 TOM WILLDIGG: Well, I think the first thing
20 you do is similar to what Detective Stark does: Go
21 out to the schools.
22 She's a one-man show -- one-woman show, and
23 she has a lot to do.
24 So we need more personnel to do that, to
25 start with.
247 1 You know, drugs, it's -- when they had the
2 other epidemics, when you had the crack epidemic of
3 the '80s, you went out and you threw a whole bunch
4 of money on it, you threw a whole bunch of personnel
5 on it, you put a lid on it.
6 Is it gone? No, it's not gone.
7 When you had the gang epidemic of 2000 -- the
8 early 2000s to 2005, we went to the legislators, and
9 all of a sudden, we had, you know, a Long Island
10 task force on gangs, working out of Hempstead with
11 the combined force of Nassau, Suffolk, corrections,
12 underneath the FBI.
13 And is it gone? No.
14 But did we put a lid on it? Yes.
15 Heroin came along and everybody's turned --
16 they didn't turn a blind eye, but they put up a
17 heroin task force; they took down a heroin task
18 force.
19 Manpower, money; money's tight, manpower's
20 tight, so that part of it is over.
21 I think, as interacting with the cops, cops
22 interacting with the schools, I think the program
23 that Nassau has right now is great.
24 I would love to see them bring along some
25 young adults that are recovered addicts, that the
248 1 other children, or children -- they could be
2 children, adolescents, that they can relate to in
3 the audience. They're not gonna relate to
4 Detective Willdigg or Detective Stark as much as
5 they're gonna relate to somebody, like: Oh, my God,
6 that person up there, he's stopped. He's clean and
7 sober. I want to be like that person.
8 Okay, you're not gonna get every kid in the
9 audience or every young adult in the audience, but
10 you're gonna get one, maybe two, out of that whole
11 assembly.
12 So I think that's important for the police to
13 do that.
14 And every day, when they -- when they have
15 interaction with the public, when you have a call to
16 somebody's house, I think that the training, when
17 they get training in the academy now, they have to
18 be trained more so as more
19 community-relations-minded as far as drug addiction.
20 Even all about the way down to marijuana, it's a
21 gateway drug.
22 You know, marijuana's a gateway drug.
23 And, that's about all I can say as far as
24 community relations go.
25 But, I think Nassau, Detective Stark
249 1 especially, is on the right track with that
2 education part.
3 The enforcement end is another thing.
4 SENATOR MARTINS: I appreciate it.
5 You know, I know our children get many of
6 their signals from us as parents.
7 You know, if we look at certain things and we
8 say they're okay, our children are more than likely
9 to say they're okay, or it's no big deal.
10 And, so, we actually have to do more
11 ourselves, as parents, to strike the right balance
12 when it comes to setting a tone for what is
13 acceptable and what is not acceptable in our own
14 households, and in our own communities.
15 I have a question here with regard to the
16 Nassau County Police Department, and whether or not
17 they carry Narcan.
18 So, Eden, lay up for you?
19 Come on up, why you don't tell us about
20 Narcan.
21 EDEN LAIKIN: Well, I will tell you that --
22 SENATOR MARTINS: Come on up.
23 Thank you.
24 EDEN LAIKIN: -- it is one of my favorite
25 subjects to talk about.
250 1 Thank you for showing that, Denise.
2 We do, since we became State-certified
3 through the State Health Department, as an
4 opioid-overdose program, the first county outside of
5 New York City in the state to do that, we've trained
6 1300 regular citizens, approximately --
7 [Applause.]
8 EDEN LAIKIN: -- at about -- yeah --
9 50 trainings.
10 I've seen almost everybody in this room at
11 the trainings at least once, you know.
12 SENATOR MARTINS: And every -- every car --
13 every police car in Nassau County?
14 EDEN LAIKIN: No. I mean, we have -- it is
15 starting, the training of the police, but we didn't
16 do that right away; and mostly because the
17 difference between Nassau and Suffolk, I think, and
18 one big thing is, we have a huge -- you know, we
19 have a -- you know, our ambulances, most likely, are
20 gonna get to an aided before our, you know, police
21 officers usually. And they have Narcan, and they
22 save.
23 I talked to our police medics now. They
24 just -- the other night, they responded to
25 six heroin overdoses in their -- in one shift at
251 1 night. "Six."
2 They all lived, but -- yeah, so they all
3 about lived.
4 And, so, they usually get there first.
5 But our officers are gonna be trained. We're
6 told that by July, all of the them will be trained.
7 It will be in the patrol cars.
8 I know that this new class that was going
9 through the academy was trained. That's what I was
10 told by the Police Commissioner.
11 So -- but I could just talk about how, you
12 know, our thing is, yeah, a lot of these kids
13 credits dying at home, you know. And I want to get
14 one of these kits into every parent's.
15 Even if you're -- and one thing you should
16 know -- and I don't want to take up anymore time --
17 but, you know, the easiest time to die of a fatal
18 overdose is when you have some period of abstinence
19 away, and then you relapse, and you think you have
20 the same, uhm --
21 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Tolerance.
22 EDEN LAIKIN: -- tolerance, thank you, and
23 you go back to doing the same amount.
24 So, even if you're -- if your child is, you
25 know, blessed enough and in recovery and clean, have
252 1 the Narcan anyway. Don't -- you know?
2 It's better to have than not to have.
3 SENATOR MARTINS: And to the extent that we
4 can, again, put priority on all of the our emergency
5 responders, having them being trained, having the
6 kits in their cars, having them accessible.
7 And, certainly, whether it's our emergency
8 responders, schools, or other areas, certainly, it's
9 easy enough to do, and the training isn't that
10 difficult.
11 So thank you very much for all your efforts,
12 Eden.
13 EDEN LAIKIN: You're welcome.
14 SENATOR MARTINS: I have two questions here
15 with regard to the Good Samaritan Law.
16 Anyone familiar with the Good Samaritan Law?
17 [Applause.]
18 SENATOR MARTINS: Important.
19 Important, where do we -- where we draw
20 those -- that threshold? Where do we as a society
21 want to be when issues like this come up?
22 Richie, you want to give us an overview?
23 RICHARD BUCKMAN: Uhm, I'm probably not the
24 best qualified person.
25 SENATOR MARTINS: No?
253 1 Jeffrey?
2 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: The Legislature, in
3 its infinite wisdom -- unanimous in the Senate, by
4 the way. One vote against it in the Assembly, and
5 I'll leave that person out of the conversation --
6 the Legislature --
7 SENATOR MARTINS: But you can always look it
8 up if you want to.
9 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: Right.
10 [Laughter.]
11 DR. JEFFREY REYNOLDS: And he's from
12 Long Island.
13 But, look, it went up through the Senate
14 unanimously, it went through the Assembly
15 unanimously. It's one of the only times, I think,
16 probably in the past 30 years, that the Legislature
17 has agreed on something so quickly, and something
18 that, potentially, dials back our law-enforcement
19 response to addiction.
20 And, essentially, it's a law that creates
21 limited immunity for those who call for the help in
22 the midst of an overdose; whether you're calling for
23 somebody else or for yourself.
24 It doesn't apply if you have a pound of
25 heroin and a handgun on the table when the police
254 1 respond, but for low-level offenses it certainly
2 applies.
3 And I think that the MO here really was to
4 send a message to young people.
5 And if you see, there's a poster on the wall,
6 to get them to call for help.
7 Overdose is not a spontaneous event, kind of
8 like what you see in the movies. It usually takes a
9 couple of hours.
10 And more often than not, when someone begins
11 to suffer an overdose, there's a whole bunch of
12 people in the room. And, particularly, if they're
13 young, people get scared, people get afraid, and
14 people leave, and that person winds up dying.
15 And so this was a very clear step, supported
16 by law enforcement, to say: Look, in some cases,
17 public health comes before punishment. Call for
18 help.
19 And there's been a number of very
20 high-profile saves, where folks have called for help
21 and lives have been saved.
22 So kudos to the Legislature, and particularly
23 the Long Island delegation, for getting this done.
24 SENATOR MARTINS: Well, I appreciate that.
25 And I am going to give a shout out to
255 1 Traci Pew [ph.]. Traci, from the Drug Policy
2 Alliance.
3 If anyone is interested in any of those
4 posters, please reach out, and she'll be happy to
5 share.
6 You know, and to that point, let's
7 understand, there is a distinction, and I think
8 we've heard it here over and over and over again
9 today: This is a health issue.
10 Let's focus on it as a health issue.
11 Forgive me, when it comes to someone who's
12 dealing drugs to our kids, put them away. Bad
13 enough can't happen to them.
14 Let them get treatment for their own
15 addictions when they're away, but get them away.
16 That's my opinion.
17 And, so, if we can increase the penalties on
18 drug sales, and people who are pushing drugs on our
19 kids, I'm all in.
20 But we need to find a more equitable way,
21 appropriate way, of dealing with this health-care
22 crisis that is facing us.
23 I want to thank the panel for being here
24 today. I want to thank you all for your
25 participation.
256 1 Senator Boyle, as always, this was very
2 interesting.
3 I have certainly learned a lot. I think we
4 all about have.
5 And I hope that everyone here will continue
6 to participate and to dialogue as we move forward.
7 I will invite everyone again to, please,
8 I know there were many people we couldn't get to,
9 there are statements out there that you would like
10 to share, and those statements are important.
11 Some of the most poignant parts of today's
12 discussion came from those personal observations.
13 And I'm certainly not trying to discourage
14 anyone. I just want to point out that, from a time
15 standpoint, we just don't have the time right now.
16 But I would encourage you to, please, take
17 the opportunity, prepare those statements, send them
18 along, allow them to be part of the record; allow
19 other people to participate and share in your
20 thoughts, because they will make it into a final
21 result.
22 They will be read, and they will be
23 incorporated.
24 And with that, Senator Boyle, please, to wrap
25 up.
257 1 SENATOR BOYLE: Thank you very much.
2 I just would like to, again, thank all the
3 panelists.
4 And, Mr. Ewald, from the
5 District Attorney's Office, he was very instrumental
6 in the legislation we've already introduced
7 regarding increased criminal penalties.
8 Thank you, everyone, for today.
9 I can tell you that I have a number of ideas
10 in terms of legislation. It will be all part of the
11 report.
12 I'm just gonna, quick, for those of you who
13 can't make the April 22nd Narcan training:
14 The Long Island Minority AIDS Coalition is
15 having -- hosting one on May 9th.
16 It's gonna be for: Harm Reduction Solutions
17 For Public Health And Safety.
18 After -- that's at 8 a.m. to 12 p.m., at the
19 Four Points Sheraton Inn in Plainview.
20 And after that, at 12 to 1, there's gonna be
21 a Narcan training session there, as well.
22 Thank you all about again for coming.
23 And, I also would most like to thank our
24 moderator, Senator Jack Martins.
25 Jack, did you a great job.
258 1 Thank you very much for coming.
2 [Applause.]
3
4 (Whereupon, at approximately 2:25 p.m.,
5 the forum held before the New York State Joint
6 Task Force on Heroin and Opioid Addiction
7 concluded, and adjourned.)
8
9 ---oOo---
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