Wednesday Volume 553 21 November 2012 No. 72

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 21 November 2012

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2012 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 561 21 NOVEMBER 2012 562

a future pipeline of £9.4 billion with many thousands of House of Commons jobs attached. Each of those investment decisions has been taken in the sure and certain knowledge that the Wednesday 21 November 2012 referendum is coming and independence is likely. Why does the Minister think that these investment decisions The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock continue to be made, and why is nobody listening to his scare stories? PRAYERS David Mundell: I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman’s analysis. These investments are taking place despite the [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] uncertainty, not because of it. I tend to agree with the chief executive of Aggreko, who said yesterday in giving evidence to a parliamentary Committee that the supposed Oral Answers to Questions benefits of independence were “small and tenuous” and unlikely to arise, while the dangers were “large and serious”. SCOTLAND Stewart Hosie: The Minister mentions uncertainty, The Secretary of State was asked— but the only uncertainty we have seen is the massive increase made in the North sea supplementary charge Independence (Jobs) with no discussion with the sector, and the uncertainty for employees now that this Government are making it 1. Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab): What assessment easier to sack people. Is it not the case, as Douglas he has made of the potential effects on jobs in Scotland Sawers of Ceridian said when he made a significant of Scottish independence. [128888] investment earlier this year, that in the event of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland independence, the Scottish Government’s approach will (David Mundell): The UK Government firmly believe be to make Scotland more, not less, competitive? Is that that Scotland is, and always will be, better off in the not the truth? Instead of scare stories, we are going to UK. The UK Government are undertaking a programme move to independence with a Government who will of analysis to evaluate how Scotland contributes to, make Scotland more, not less, competitive? and benefits from, being part of the UK. David Mundell: When the people of Scotland make a Lindsay Roy: I thank the Minister for that answer. decision on independence in the referendum, they must Will he explain why there is so much concern among be sure that that decision is a long-term one. Independence those working in the defence and supply chain industries is not for Christmas 2014. If the hon. Gentleman looked in Scotland over the future of their jobs? at the Institute for Fiscal Studies report, he would see that it says that an independent Scotland would face David Mundell: I can advise the hon. Gentleman that, much harder decisions than the rest of the UK in the as of April, there were 15,880 regular armed forces and longer term. Ministry of Defence civilian personnel based in Scotland, and an additional 40,000 people employed in defence-related 13. [128901] Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): industries in around 800 companies. Not one of those The Minister will be aware that 30,000 Scots are people could guarantee their job under an independent employed by UK Government agencies to work as civil Scotland. servants in Scotland, including in the Department for International Development, which has 450 staff Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): The SNP’s members in East Kilbride. What would happen to commitment to a nuclear-free Scotland will presumably those jobs if Scotland voted for independence, and has mean the end of Trident, the end of the Vanguard there been any clarity on that from the SNP? submarines that carry it and the end of Rosyth. Am I right in thinking that that affects something like 6,500 jobs in Scotland? Does the Minister think that these David Mundell: There has been no discussion between jobs would be replicated elsewhere, or would those the SNP, or indeed the Scottish Government, and the people simply lose their jobs, thanks to an SNP UK Government about the future of defence- based Government? jobs, civil service jobs or any other jobs in Scotland. The people in those jobs would face, as would everybody David Mundell: I can advise my hon. Friend that by else, great uncertainty if Scotland were to become 2020, there will be 8,000 jobs based at Faslane, following independent. the recent announcement by the Secretary of State for Defence of an additional 1,500 jobs. There is absolutely Independence Referendum (Electoral Commission) no certainty about what would happen to anybody employed in the Ministry of Defence or the defence industries in Scotland under an independent Scotland. 2. Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): What role the Electoral Commission will play in the referendum on Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): The list of recent Scottish independence. [128889] investment and job announcements in Scotland has been quite remarkable, particularly in the renewables 11. Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con): What role the sector. The Minister will know there were £2.3 billion-worth Electoral Commission will play in the referendum on of completed projects to July this year, and that there is Scottish independence. [128899] 563 Oral Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 564

The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore): Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): Yesterday, The agreement reached between the United Kingdom the gentleman who gave evidence to the Select Committee and Scottish Governments recognises the importance chaired by the hon. Member for Glasgow South West of the independent Electoral Commission and that the (Mr Davidson) on behalf of the Yes Scotland campaign referendum should be based on the normal rules for for separation refused to state categorically that his referendums held across the UK. campaign would abide by the advice of the Electoral Commission. What sanctions can be imposed on a Bob Blackman: It is clearly important for all parties Government, a Parliament or a campaign that blatantly to respect the independence of the Electoral Commission. refuses to take the commission’s advice ? Does my right hon. Friend agree that if the SNP Administration in Scotland were to ignore the commission’s Michael Moore: I understand my hon. Friend’s anxiety, advice, that would taint the whole process and call into but this Government and their predecessors have always question whether the referendum was fair? followed the advice of the Electoral Commission, and I would expect the Scottish Government to do so as well. Michael Moore: My hon. Friend is right to highlight Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): The Secretary of State the expertise and experience of the Electoral Commission, has just asserted yet again that no Government have which is indeed a highly respected institution. I do not ever ignored the advice of the Electoral Commission, think that it would be in the interests of the Scottish and has implied that the Scottish Government might. Government or any nationalists to pit themselves against Far from ignoring the commission’s advice, the Scottish the commission’s advice. Government have yet to receive it. Meanwhile, the right hon. Gentleman’s Government have rejected the Electoral Karen Lumley: Does my right hon. Friend share the Commission’s advice on the desirability of referendums concern that the referendum question submitted to the on council tax in England. Will he now put the record Electoral Commission by the Scottish Government is straight? weighted in favour of a positive outcome? Michael Moore: I hope that I can reassure the hon. Michael Moore: I understand the concern that people Gentleman and help him to calm down. As the Electoral feel about the formulation presented by the Scottish Commissioner John McCormick said on television just Government, but I think that, given its great experience, the other weekend, great expertise and trusted status, the Electoral Commission “For every referendum that has taken place, the Electoral is in the right position to carry out the right procedures. Commission’s advice and question has been accepted.” I am ready to stand by its advice, and I hope that the As for the issue of local government referendums, none Scottish Government are too. has taken place. We have already said that we have reflected on the Electoral Commission’s advice, and I Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op): shall be presenting proposals on that question very Does the Secretary of State accept that while the Electoral shortly. Commission may be a trifle wishy-washy on occasion, it Businesses is necessary for an impartial body to decide important questions such as the question of the question? The 3. Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): alternative is for separatists to be both referee and What steps his Department is taking to promote player, and it is simply unacceptable for the party that is businesses in Scotland around the world. [128890] on one side of the argument to decide the rules as well. 12. Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): What Michael Moore: I entirely agree with the eminent steps his Department is taking to promote businesses in Chair of the Scottish Affairs Committee. He and his Scotland around the world. [128900] colleagues have been conducting a series of investigations of that issue and others relating to independence. I The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore): believe that the referendum must be seen to be fair to The Government are committed to promoting United both sides. We cannot possibly have folk calling the Kingdom businesses, including in Scotland, around the outcome into question at the end of the process, which world. Brian Wilson, the former Trade Minister, is is why we have laboured long and hard to secure a currently carrying out a review of Scottish exporting referendum that is legal, fair and decisive. I hope that and has been appointed a UK business ambassador the Scottish Government will accept the Electoral with special focus on Scotland. Commission’s advice. Andrea Leadsom: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that reply. Does he agree that, as well as Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): Given that promoting business, we need to support businesses at any proposal to extend the franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds this time when access to finance is so difficult? What is unlikely to take effect until the spring of 2014, will the steps is he taking to work with the devolved Government Electoral Commission provide advice on how all those to ensure that there are prompt payments in the supply young people will be able to register and vote in any chain, and in particular that the public sector pays referendum? private sector suppliers in a timely fashion? Michael Moore: The hon. Lady has raised an important Michael Moore: My hon. Friend makes an important point about the potential extension of the franchise. It point. The Government are committed to ensuring that will be for the Scottish Government to present detailed private sector suppliers are paid on time so they can proposals, but I imagine that the Electoral Commission sustain their businesses, and I am happy to work with will be closely involved in the guidance that is provided the Scottish Government, or anybody else in the public for all voters as we approach the referendum. sector, to ensure that everybody adheres to best practice. 565 Oral Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 566

Alun Cairns: What action is the Secretary of State Mr Speaker: Order. I am certainly doing my job, but I taking to ensure there is no conflict between Scottish think the hon. Lady is referring to the Secretary of Development International and UK Trade & Investment State, and we will now hear about how he is doing his. when they use public money to try to attract companies either side of the border by offering bigger carrots? Michael Moore: Once again, we are going to take no lessons from the Labour party about the state of the Michael Moore: My hon. Friend underlines the United Kingdom economy. We have a plan that will importance of trade for the Scottish and UK economies. make sure we deal with the mess it left us, and that gets Scotland’s exports are worth some £22 billion, but to us back on the right track and gets us sustainable put things in perspective, that is half the value of what growth—unlike Labour, which has no plan whatever. we sell into England, Wales and the rest of the UK. SDI has 21 offices in 13 countries, whereas UKTI has 162 Independence Referendum offices in 96 countries, and 270 Foreign and Commonwealth Office consuls operate in 170 countries. That network 4. Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con): What offers a great opportunity to Scottish business to get the recent discussions he has had with the Scottish best out of the United Kingdom. It is important that we Government on the referendum on Scottish work together, and it is clear that we are stronger independence. [128891] together and would be weaker apart. 5. John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab): Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab): As we have When he last met the First Minister to discuss the seen, the work undertaken here has an impact on Scottish planned referendum on Scottish independence. [128892] businesses both at home and abroad. May I draw the Secretary of State’s attention to the troubles that The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore): Scottish businesses are currently experiencing, however? I have discussed the referendum with the Scottish Unemployment is now higher in Scotland than in the Government on a number of occasions, most recently rest of the UK. Recent research by the Fraser of Allander on 15 October, when Scotland’s two Governments reached Institute reveals another challenge for the Scottish economy agreement on the process to ensure that there is a legal, and Scottish businesses: it found that welfare changes in fair and decisive referendum. Glasgow alone will remove £115 million from the local economy and lead to the loss of almost 2,000 jobs Mr Amess: Does the Secretary of State agree that one across Scotland. What does the Secretary of State plan of the arguments for separation is based on the false to do about that? premise that it would be good for the Scottish economy? Does he agree that separation would be good for the Michael Moore: I share the hon. Lady’s analysis in English economy but not for the Scottish economy? this respect: there is a huge mess that has to be cleared up, and there are significant challenges and some deep- Michael Moore: I certainly agree with my hon. Friend seated problems in the Scottish and UK economies, as that Scotland is stronger as part of the United Kingdom well as real problems on our doorstep in Europe. Every economy. We would be weaker if we were outside it, time she comes to the Dispatch Box, however, she tries primarily because it gives us access to this huge single to duck Labour’s responsibility for the mess we inherited, market which takes twice as many of our exports—if and she simply cannot do that. We are determined to we can call them that—as anywhere else in the world; it ensure that through welfare reform we make work pay, has the resilience to absorb huge financial catastrophes, by supporting the most vulnerable and helping people such as the bank collapse; and it gives us the clout into work. We are also determined to put money back internationally to be at the top table, where all the key into the pockets of low-income and middle-income economic decisions are made. That is far better for Scots; from next April, 162,000 will be taken out of tax Scotland. entirely, and 2 million will have seen their tax bills reduced. John Robertson: Does the Secretary of State agree that last week we saw an example of what happens Margaret Curran: Perhaps I can draw the Secretary when people do not listen to the Electoral Commission—the of State’s attention to some of the comments made by debacle of the police commissioner elections, with a his Liberal Democrat colleagues, who I do not think turnout of less than 10% in some places and empty share his enthusiasm for his welfare changes, and ask boxes? Will he talk to the Scottish Government to him to focus on the loss of jobs that they will cause in ensure that a similar debacle does not happen in Scotland? Scotland. Perhaps he should focus a little more on that. The truth is that the Government’s policies are hitting Michael Moore: Funnily enough, I do not agree with Scotland hard, and the Secretary of State must start the hon. Gentleman on the example he uses, but I am in addressing the work his Government are doing in Scotland. complete agreement with him on the principle that we Earlier this month in a letter to me, the Secretary of should listen to the Electoral Commission and follow State revealed he is not on a single one of the Cabinet its advice. Committees dealing with either the economy or welfare. The last time I questioned the Secretary of State we had Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): I no action on food banks, and now there is no action on was not particularly going to ask about this issue, but I Scotland’s economy. It would seem that he does not am happy to ask the Secretary of State— understand the impact of the welfare changes in Scotland. When are you going to start doing your job in relation Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Lady might let Mr Wishart to the Scottish economy? have a go then. Come on, let’s hear him. 567 Oral Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 568

Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): David Mundell: It is not clear whether the Scottish Thank you for clearing up that confusion, Mr Speaker. Government have had any dialogue with NATO about Can the Minister confirm that following the Edinburgh prospective membership and it is quite clear that agreement, which all parties agreed to, the referendum membership could not be guaranteed. As the NATO on independence is now exclusively a matter for the Secretary-General said, the Scottish Parliament and that this House has no further “door does not open…just because you stand in front of it.” role in it? Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): Michael Moore: I know that the hon. Gentleman Rosyth dockyard in my constituency works for the always wants to denigrate the Parliament of which he is Ministry of Defence and the Royal Navy. Will the a part, and I wish he would stop doing that, but I point Minister clarify whether, if Scotland were a separate out to him that a rather important part of that agreement country, regardless of its NATO membership, Rosyth is that we will pass the section 30 order, which will dockyard would get work from the Royal Navy? transfer the powers to the Scottish Parliament. Importantly, that will involve debates in this place and in the other David Mundell: Many UK defence contractors benefit place, as well as in the Scottish Parliament. We are all from contracts that are exempt from EU procurement part of this debate, and all Scots will be part of that rules for national security reasons, meaning that they political process. have to be placed or competed for within the United Kingdom. Many such contracts have been awarded in Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): When the hon. Gentleman’s constituency and there is no the Secretary of State next meets the First Minister will guarantee that they would be awarded in an independent he share with him the powerful call of President Clinton Scotland. and Secretary Albright when they visited these shores reminding us that what binds us together is far more Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD): Does powerful than any distinctions in identity? my right hon. Friend accept that there is an inherent On economic co-operation, was the Institute for Fiscal contradiction in saying that one thinks that nuclear Studies not right to point out that if we want to diversify weapons are an obscenity while at the same time wishing the Scottish economy away from our dependence on oil to join an alliance based on both conventional and and gas revenues, we need not only a shared currency nuclear deterrence? Are not those two positions wholly and interest rate, but a powerful and strong fiscal union irreconcilable? which benefits Scotland? That is the likely result in terms of our shared prosperity in the future. David Mundell: I absolutely agree with the right hon. and learned Gentleman. Some honourable former members Michael Moore: The hon. Gentleman makes two of the Scottish National party, such as MSPs Jean important points. One is that when senior international Urquhart and Mr Finnie, agree with him and they figures look at the issue confronting Scots—the most could not reconcile their positions. Many SNP MSPs important political decision in 300 years—time and continue to sit in government in Scotland, however, again they say that they think Scotland would be better despite being unable to reconcile those two positions. off as part of the United Kingdom. Secondly, the Economy report he highlights is significant as it shows the strength of Scotland’s economy as part of the UK, both in terms of its opportunity and in reducing the risks attached to 7. Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): What recent it. [Interruption.] assessment he has made of the economy in Scotland. [128894] Mr Speaker: Order. Far too many noisy private conversations are taking place—mainly on the Opposition The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore): Benches at the moment. Let us hear from Mark Pritchard. The UK Government have reduced the deficit by a quarter and we are taking important steps to promote NATO growth. Cutting corporation tax, accelerating infrastructure projects and establishing the funding for lending scheme 6. Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): What recent are just some of the range of measures being implemented. assessment he has made of the benefits to Scotland of the UK’s membership of NATO; and if he will make a Ian Murray: Does the Secretary of State agree with statement. [128893] the recent assessment of the Institute for Fiscal Studies that in the event of a separate Scotland the economy The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland will not be sustainable in the long term? (David Mundell): Scotland is stronger in defence terms as part of the United Kingdom within NATO. NATO is Michael Moore: I quite agree with the hon. Gentleman. the bedrock of our national security, and the UK is one We will have much stronger opportunities if we continue of its largest contributors. There is no guarantee that an as part of the United Kingdom than we will if we go independent Scotland would gain automatic membership. our own separate way.

Mark Pritchard: What discussions has my right hon. Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) Friend held with the Scottish Government on their (LD): Vion has put up for sale McIntosh Donald, a dialogue with NATO, given that so many within that meat processing factory at Portlethen in my constituency Government are anti-nuclear and NATO is a pro-nuclear that employs 600 people. Will the Secretary of State alliance? emphasise to any potential buyer north-east Scotland’s 569 Oral Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 570 excellent reputation for high-quality meat production David Mundell: I am happy to arrange a meeting and the importance of the factory in a route to market involving myself, the hon. Gentleman and BT to discuss for that excellent product? that issue.

Michael Moore: My hon. Friend makes an important Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) point. These have clearly been difficult months, particularly (SNP): In what appears to be a break with the constant for those employed by Vion at Hall’s in West Lothian, scaremongering in this Session, may I ask the Minister and now we have the sale of the rest of the group. I am whether he agrees that broadband coverage percentages happy to meet my hon. Friend and other Scottish should be based on local authority area rather than colleagues to discuss the implications, and encourage national area? everybody to see the potential in the company. I hope David Mundell: What I think is that the Scottish that we will sustain the jobs that are in it. Government, having been given £100 million by the UK Government to roll out broadband, should get on with Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ it in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency and elsewhere. Co-op): Vion’s decision to cease operations in Scotland also affects up to 400 people in my constituency in Cambuslang. Does the Secretary of State agree that it is PRIME MINISTER intolerable for the company to refuse to provide those 400 people, who are obviously very anxious about their The Prime Minister was asked— future, with meaningful information? Will he make contact with the company to remind them that they Engagements should be ensuring that their employees get clarity about their positions as soon as possible? Q1. [128798] Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): If he will list his official engagements for Michael Moore: The hon. Gentleman makes a very Wednesday 21 November. fair point and I shall certainly take it up on his behalf The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): Before I list and add to his efforts with the company. I will be happy my engagements, the whole House will wish to join me to meet him in due course to discuss it further. in sending our sympathies and our condolences to the family of Captain Walter Barrie, of 1st Battalion the Superfast Broadband Royal Regiment of Scotland. He was described as a fantastic, engaging and professional soldier. He will be 8. Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): What steps truly missed by all who knew him. Our nation must the Government are taking to widen access to superfast never forget his service and his sacrifice. [HON.MEMBERS: broadband in Scotland. [128895] “Hear, hear.”] This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland and others, and in addition to my duties in this House I (David Mundell): The UK Government are committed shall have further such meetings later today. to delivering the best superfast broadband network in Europe by 2015. As part of that, the Scottish Government Tristram Hunt: May I join the Prime Minister in were allocated more than £100 million to support paying tribute to Captain Barrie and all our soldiers broadband improvements. It is now the responsibility working so heroically in Afghanistan? of the Scottish Government to deliver on this investment In Stoke-on-Trent, libraries are closing, teachers are by the UK Government. being laid off and youth clubs are shutting their doors. Given that public funds are so precious, does the Prime Mr Reid: I am pleased that the Government have Minister really think it was a good use of taxpayers’ allocated more than £100 million to Scotland for rural money to waste £100 million on the farcical police and high-speed broadband. Will the Minister do all he can crime commissioner elections in November? to encourage the Scottish Government and Highlands and Islands Enterprise to get a move on and use that The Prime Minister: I think it is good that, right money to bring high-speed broadband to the rural parts across the country, we are now going to have local law of Argyll and Bute as soon as possible? and order champions, who will stand up for the public and ensure that we get a good deal from the police. I David Mundell: I most certainly will encourage the have noticed that Labour has two criticisms of the Scottish Government and all other agencies to get on police and crime commissioners: on the one hand it said with deploying rural broadband. My constituents are as we spent too much money; on the other hand, it said concerned about it as the hon. Gentleman’s. that we did not spend enough money promoting the elections. I am prepared to accept one criticism or the Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): other, but not both. I am very concerned, as everyone is, about all of Scotland Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con): Yesterday the British getting superfast broadband. Is the Minister aware that Government borrowed money from international investors BT is going to use fibre optics in West Lothian, and has at record low levels, saving taxpayers millions of pounds. just announced that it is going to roll out copper wire Does my right hon. Friend agree that this is more into Bo’ness and parts of my constituency? Copper evidence that our economic plans are working? wire is last century’s technology. Will he intervene and talk to BT about rolling out fibre optics to all parts of The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a good Scotland, so that superfast broadband is a reality for point, which is that because of the fact that we have a everyone? credible plan to get on top of debt, to get on top of 571 Oral Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 572 deficit, to show how we will pay our way in the world, Edward Miliband: That is completely right, but we we have record low interest rates, which were described have to use every means at our disposal to pressure both by the shadow Chancellor as the key test of economic sides into those negotiations, because the reality is that credibility. confidence that there can be a two-state solution is dwindling month by month. There will be an opportunity Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): May I to support the cause of the two-state solution at the UN start by joining the Prime Minister in paying tribute to General Assembly later this month by recognising enhanced Captain Walter Barrie, of 1st Battalion the Royal Regiment observer status for the Palestinian Authority. The of Scotland? He showed the utmost courage and bravery, Opposition support that because we believe it will strengthen and all our thoughts and condolences are with his the moderate voices among the Palestinians who want family and friends. to pursue the path of politics, not the path of violence. I May I also express my deep sorrow about the loss of urge the Prime Minister to consider adopting that position life and suffering in Israel and Gaza in recent days, in the days ahead. including the latest appalling terrorist attack on a bus in Tel Aviv? There is widespread support on both sides of The Prime Minister: I agree with the right hon. the House for the agreement of an immediate and Gentleman on the first part of what he said: confidence durable ceasefire in Israel and Gaza, so will the Prime is dwindling that there is time left for a two-state solution. Minister set out, in his view, the remaining barriers to That is why there is such a sense of urgency in the that ceasefire agreement now being reached? international community—this could be the last chance for peace, because the facts on the ground are changing. The Prime Minister: May I say how much I agree with Frankly, I think it is so much in Israel’s interest now to the right hon. Gentleman about the appalling news this push for the two-state solution, so we should keep up morning about the terrorist attack on a bus in Tel Aviv? the pressure. May I also express our deep concern about the intolerable situation for people in southern Israel and the grave loss On the potential vote at the United Nations, our of life in Gaza? view, which I know the Foreign Secretary set out for the The right hon. Gentleman asked specifically what House in some detail yesterday, is that the Palestinians more we can do to help bring this ceasefire about. I should not take it to the UN in the short term, and we think that all of us, right across the European Union, have urged them not to do that. Clearly, if they do so, and in America and beyond, need to be putting pressure we will have to consider the right way to vote. The point on the Israeli Prime Minister and all those who have is this: we will not solve this problem at the United contacts with Hamas, to de-escalate, to stop the fighting, Nations; it will be solved only by Israelis and Palestinians to stop the bombing; and that is exactly what I have sitting down and negotiating. Indeed, there may be done. Over the weekend, I spoke twice to the Israeli dangers in pushing the issue too early at the UN in Prime Minister and once to the President of Israel—my terms of funds for the Palestinian Authority being cut right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary is working very off and all the other consequences, so let us get negotiations hard on this as well—to persuade both sides that we going, rather than discussions at the UN. need a ceasefire. Beyond that, obviously what we need is proper discussions about the future of Israel and Palestine. Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): If the Prime Minister wants to send a clear message that Edward Miliband: I agree with the Prime Minister: he Scotland and England belong together and have a better is right to say that any such ceasefire deal can be turned future together, should he not be doing his best to make into permanent peace only if there is a resumption of sure that the principal road from London to Edinburgh meaningful negotiations towards a two-state solution. is a modern dual carriageway and does not become a This week has shown us once again that there is neither country lane? peace nor a peace process, and the reality is that the international community bears some responsibility for The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend makes a the abject failure to have those meaningful negotiations, very attractive spending bid for the autumn statement. nine years on from the promise of the road map for Although my right hon. Friend the Chancellor is not peace. Can the right hon. Gentleman set out for the here, I am sure that Treasury colleagues were listening House what steps beyond the hoped-for ceasefire need closely. to be taken to pressure both sides into meaningful negotiations? Q2. [128799] Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): The Prime Minister claimed that universal credit will The Prime Minister: I agree that we need a process to be put in place and we have to do everything we can to “bring about the most fundamental and radical changes to the persuade President Obama that this should be a leading welfare system since it began”. priority for his second presidential term, but I make this Given the Government’s propensity for omnishambles, point: of course we all want this process and we all want can he guarantee that the second phase of universal this peace, but in the end peace can come about only by credit will be implemented in April 2014 and not delayed? Israelis and Palestinians sitting down and talking through the final status issues—they have to discuss borders, The Prime Minister: Universal credit is a good reform Jerusalem and refugees. In the end, as President Obama and I thought it was welcomed across the House because is fond of saying, and I agree, we cannot want this more it puts in place proper work incentives for people at all than they want it. We have to encourage them, provide levels of income, and is also highly progressive in channelling the framework and push for a process, but in the end we money to those who need it the most. I can tell the hon. need courageous leadership from Israelis and Palestinians Lady that universal credit is on time and on budget and, to talk through those final status issues. indeed, a pilot scheme is to start shortly. 573 Oral Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 574

Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): The Edward Miliband: First of all, there are 7,000 fewer person responsible for the murder of Becky Godden- nurses in the NHS than when the Prime Minister came Edwards, whose mother is my constituent, has not been to power, according to the figures published this morning. brought to justice because important incriminating evidence I asked him a specific question about the promise made was excluded from the court process. Will my right hon. a year ago by the then Health Secretary—the Prime Friend join our cause in calling for a thorough review of Minister sacked him and he is now the Leader of the code C of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, House—that there would be no rationing on the grounds so that such terrible situations will not occur in future? of cost alone, but the president of the Royal College of Ophthalmologists said recently—[Interruption.] The Prime Minister: I will look very carefully at what Government Members should listen, because he said my hon. Friend raises and the specific case he mentions. that I will also look at the issue of the Police and Criminal “PCTs are not following government guidelines.” Evidence Act. It is always important that all information Half of health commissioners are restricting access to that possibly can be put in front of a court is put in cataract surgery. [Interruption.] I do not think that the front of a court, so that it can reach the correct decision. Prime Minister should ask the former Health Secretary for help, because he got rid of him from the post. Can Q3. [128800] Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): the Prime Minister tell me why, for the first time in six Cuts in front-line policing, together with cuts to police years, the number of cataract operations actually fell pensions and conditions in service, have led 96% of the last year? police force to believe that this Government do not support them. Does the Prime Minister think that that The Prime Minister: What I can tell the right hon. is a problem and, if so, what will he do about it? Gentleman is that, under this Government, the number of doctors is up, the number of operations is up, The Prime Minister: This Government strongly support waiting lists are down and waiting times are down. That our police service and what it does. These are people is what is happening because we took the responsible who go out every day and put their lives on the line to decision. He quotes primary care trusts, which, of course, keep the rest of us safe. Frankly, whoever was in government we are abolishing and putting the money into front-line right now would have to be making cuts to police services. That is what is happening under this Government. budgets, but if we actually look at what is happening in The Opposition and he believe that increasing spending policing, we see that the number of neighbourhood on the NHS is irresponsible; we think it is the right police has gone up, the percentage of police on the front thing to do. line has gone up, the number of police in back-office roles has gone down and, crucially, that crime is down Edward Miliband: Once again, the Prime Minister has and satisfaction with the police is up. no clue about the detail—he has no idea what is actually happening out there on the ground. To give him credit, he did make history this week, because he now has his Q4. [128801] Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): very own word in the “Oxford English Dictionary”: So that people do not have to wade through hundreds “omnishambles.” The reality is that the reason people of bamboozling tariff plans, will the Prime Minister are suffering on the ground is that he has wasted billions confirm that this Government will legislate to ensure of pounds on a top-down reorganisation of the NHS that people can access the best deals, which the Leader that nobody wanted and nobody voted for, just like he of the Opposition failed to do as Energy Secretary? wasted millions of pounds on police commissioner elections. He does not listen, he is out of touch and last The Prime Minister: I am delighted to tell my hon. Thursday the people of Corby spoke for the country. Friend that, having stood at this Dispatch Box and said that we wanted to ensure that people got access to the The Prime Minister: Last Thursday the people of lowest tariffs, that is exactly what we have achieved. If Humberside spoke for the whole nation. [HON.MEMBERS: Opposition Members have doubts about this, let me “More!”] Happily, there is more, because the former quote a Labour shadow Energy Minister, who said this Deputy Prime Minister, John Prescott, said that this about our change: “is not just about the police. This is a referendum on everything “It also means some of the most expensive deals would have to this…government has done…On the health, on the education, on go...Being able to reduce the number of tariffs for people is going the local authorities”, to help people get a clearer picture of what is happening and that can only be a good thing.” and people took the first opportunity to kick him out. That is the sort of endorsement that I welcome. I think that it is the leader of the Labour party who made history this week, because he told his conference that he wanted to be Disraeli; he told Radio 4 that he Edward Miliband: The Government promised that wanted to be Margaret Thatcher; he came to this House there should be no rationing in the NHS on grounds of and said that he was more Eurosceptic than Bill Cash; cost alone. Can the Prime Minister tell us whether he and then he went to the CBI and said that he loved has kept that promise? Europe even more than Tony Blair. He has impersonated more politicians than Rory Bremner, but this time the The Prime Minister: The promise that we have kept is joke is on him. that we said that we would increase NHS spending every year under this Government, and in England that Q5. [128803] Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and is what is happening. In Wales, of course, there is a Sheppey) (Con): Does my right hon. Friend agree that massive cut in the NHS, because it is run by Labour. a free press is one of the cornerstones of a true 575 Oral Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 576 democracy, and that any attempt to muzzle Mr Donohoe: I thank the Prime Minister for his newspapers, such as those of the excellent Kent response. A few months ago, he came to Troon in my Messenger Group in my constituency, should be constituency and he was going to give me the opportunity strenuously resisted? to take him around. One of the areas I was going to take him to was the Troon shipyard, where I served my The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an important apprenticeship many years ago—in fact, when he would point. I join him in expressing my admiration for the probably still have been in short trousers. Outside the Kent Messenger Group and all that it does. The problems door of the shipyard on a Thursday was a man called there have been in our newspaper industry have not the tallyman, who was a loan shark. He charged half a concerned regional and local titles, which perform an crown, which is 12.5p, per £1 each week on a loan to a incredibly important function in our democratic system. shipyard worker. Today, we are hearing all about these— However, we all have to wait for the Leveson report, study it carefully and respond to what it says. Mr Speaker: Order. May we have a question? One short sentence. Now. Q6. [128804] Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab): Allow me to present a tale of two companies. The first Mr Donohoe: Mr Speaker, you hold one of the great is Red Hot Comics in my constituency, which employs offices of state, as does the Prime Minister. What is he seven people and pays every penny of the tax that is personally going to do to drive these sharks out of our due, on time. Its main competitor, Amazon UK, brings economies? in revenue of up to £4.5 billion, and yet last year it paid less than £1 million in tax. Will the Prime Minister The Prime Minister: I enjoyed my visit to Troon. I follow the example of the French Government, who made the offer to the hon. Gentleman at that time that I have issued a back claim for unpaid tax against would happily share a platform with him to defend our Amazon, or will he allow us to draw our own United Kingdom, but for some reason the invitation conclusions about whose side he is on? got lost in the post. I therefore make the offer to him again. The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman makes an The hon. Gentleman makes a serious point about important point about ensuring that companies make payday loans. We have seen the preliminary report by fair contributions and fair tax payments in our country. the Office of Fair Trading. We need to take action, and We have put an extra £900 million into the Inland that is why we are giving the OFT a new power to Revenue to ensure that we get companies and individuals suspend a consumer credit licence with immediate effect to pay their taxes properly. Yesterday I announced that when there is an urgent need to protect consumers. The one of the key priorities of the G8, which I will be report shows that many companies are not sticking to chairing from January and which, I am pleased to the guidelines, and that is not acceptable. announce, will meet in County Fermanagh in Northern Ireland next June, will be to get proper international agreement so that companies pay their taxes properly. Engagements

Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): May Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): Has my I highlight for my right hon. Friend a free school that right hon. Friend seen the recent Experian study which will be opening in one of the most deprived wards in shows that Milton Keynes is the area of the UK best Wolverhampton next year? It will provide a real ladder placed to lead economic growth, with a forecast growth for social mobility for young people. It is a great, of 3.1% a year? tangible advert for what this Government are doing in education, and he is more than welcome to visit. The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is a great spokesman for Milton Keynes and has welcomed me there many The Prime Minister: That is a very kind invitation. I times. It has a successful economy based largely on recently held a meeting at No. 10 Downing street for all small and medium-sized enterprises. One thing we need the 78 free schools that have been established over the to do, in Milton Keynes and elsewhere, is to get the past two and a half years. We are making good progress. housing market moving again. I am convinced that that I want many hundreds of free schools to be established is an important part of driving recovery in our economy. between now and the next election. It is of note that, whereas the last Government managed 200 hundred Q8. [128807] Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) academies in 13 years, we have managed 2,000 in two (Lab): Many young apprentices receive very low and a half years. We want to give the academies and free wages—the youngest only £2.60 an hour. Is it fair for schools agenda the biggest boost that we can. the Prime Minister to take housing benefit from young people who cannot live with their parents but are trying hard to build a future for themselves? Central Ayrshire The Prime Minister: The Government strongly support Q7. [128805] Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) the growth in apprenticeships, and we have seen something (Lab): When he next expects to visit Central Ayrshire. like 1 million new apprenticeships under this Government. I know that housing benefit is a very important issue, The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): I look but there is a problem, which needs proper attention: we forward to visiting Scotland soon and will obviously seem to give some young people a choice today, in that look carefully at whether I can visit the hon. Gentleman’s if they are on jobseeker’s allowance they can have access constituency of Central Ayrshire. to housing benefit, but if they are living at home and 577 Oral Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 578 trying to work they cannot. We need to recognise that in Q13. [128812] Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): The Prime many cases we are sending a negative signal to young Minister quite rightly praised the wonderful work of people through our welfare system. London’s emergency services during the Olympics, Paralympics and Her Majesty’s jubilee. Does he share Andrew Stunell (Hazel Grove) (LD): Is it still the the concern of the London public about the number of Prime Minister’s intention that this should be the greenest fire stations that are threatened with closure, in Government ever? particular the one in Clapham Old Town in my constituency? Will he join the campaign to save that The Prime Minister: Yes, it is. It is this Government fire station, and does he agree that it is not right to who, in record time, have established a Green Investment choose a fire station for closure simply because it is on Bank that is now in Edinburgh and starting to make very expensive land? loans. The Prime Minister: Obviously this is an issue for the Q9. [128808] Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab): I am Mayor as well as for the Government, but I will look sure the Prime Minister agrees with me that a closely at what the hon. Lady has said. Hon. Members Government spokesman describing the report by the must recognise that the most important thing is the time Children’s Commissioner into child abuse as it takes the emergency services to get to an incident. As “hysterical” was extremely unhelpful. Victims of abuse constituency MPs, we are naturally focused on the already find it difficult to come forward, including bricks and mortar items—whether ambulance or fire those who were abused by Cyril Smith in Rochdale. stations, or other facilities—but what really matters for Will the Prime Minister now help these victims by our constituents is how quickly the emergency services publishing all the police files on Smith, and ensure that get to them and how good the service is when they a police investigation takes place into all the allegations do so. and any cover-up? Q11. [128810] Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Does The Prime Minister: On the hon. Gentleman’s first my right hon. Friend share my deep disappointment, point, the issue that is being examined is very serious, and that of many hon. Members on both sides of the and we need to study carefully the interim report that House, that the Church of England yesterday failed to has been produced. It has some extremely disturbing make proper provision for women bishops? It was a sad findings and we need to give every encouragement to day for our national Church and our national the Children’s Commissioner to ensure that a final character, particularly given that 42 of 44 dioceses version of the report is produced. The specific issue voted overwhelmingly in support of women bishops. Is raised by the hon. Gentleman concerns very serious the dangerous consequence of that vote not the allegations about a former Member of this House. I disestablishment of the Church of England but simply understand that Greater Manchester police have today disinterest? confirmed that they will investigate any allegations of sexual abuse involving the late Sir Cyril Smith from 1974 onwards. The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend speaks with great expertise and knowledge. On a personal basis, I I say to the hon. Gentleman and all Members of this am a strong supporter of women bishops and am very House, particularly in the light of what has happened sad about how the vote went yesterday. I am particularly over the past few weeks, that if anyone has information sad for the Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, or facts they should take them to the police. That is the because he saw this as a major campaign that he wanted way we should investigate these things in this country. to achieve at the end of his excellent tenure of that office. It is important for the Church of England to be a Q10. [128809] Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) modern Church that is in touch with society as it is (Con): Businesses are helping to cut the borrowing today. This was a key step it needed to take. deficit by paying tax on their profits. Some multinationals, such as Starbucks and Amazon, appear to be paying low amounts of UK corporation tax. Q12. [128811] Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): The Does the Prime Minister think that that part of the tax Prime Minister promised that his start-up loans scheme code needs investigating? would provide 2,500 loans to young entrepreneurs to get their business ideas off the ground, but only 43 loans have been granted. Why has he not delivered The Prime Minister: I think it does need investigating. on his promise? I have asked the Treasury to do that and it is looking as hard as it can at what can be done. There are clearly things that one can do nationally, and that is worth The Prime Minister: The start-up loans initiative is a examining. Because we live in a competitive global very strong one. I want to look at putting even more economy where companies can move their capital, resources into it, because there is a major demand. At headquarters or money around, we need greater well as start-up loans, we have the enterprise allowance international agreements. We have come to a very important scheme. That was originally available only after people international agreement with Switzerland that will recover had been unemployed for three months, but under this billions of pounds of tax for our country, but we need Government it will be available from the first day of to work hard. That is where the G8 can help to ensure someone being unemployed. In the 1980s, many people we get a fair share of tax from companies, especially used an enterprise allowance scheme to start up their given that Britain is doing its bit to cut rates of corporation first business and get their foot on the first rung of the tax to some of the most competitive in the world. ladder. Those are the sorts of people we want to help. 579 Oral Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 580

Angela Watkinson (Hornchurch and Upminster) (Con): last Labour Government, is now costing taxpayers £2 billion Will the Prime Minister join me in congratulating Drapers’ every single year. Will the Prime Minister please confirm academy, which is in the most deprived ward in my that in the forthcoming budget negotiations he will not constituency? It is sponsored by the Drapers’ Company agree to any further reduction in the rebate? and Queen Mary college, London. In only its second year, it has become the fastest improving school in the The Prime Minister: I can certainly give my hon. country, and is a wonderful example of the Government’s Friend that assurance. The rebate negotiated by Margaret academy scheme. Thatcher is an incredibly important part of Britain’s position in Europe and making sure that we get a fair The Prime Minister: I certainly join my hon. Friend deal. It is absolutely extraordinary that the last Government in that. One strength of the academy programme is in gave away almost half that rebate, and we have never getting sponsors such as the Drapers’ Company, and heard one word of apology or regret for the fact that other businesses and organisations, behind a school and however hard we fight in Europe—and I will fight helping to change its culture and improve it. That is why incredibly hard this week for a good deal—they have we set a new target last week for academies taking over cut away our footing by giving away half the rebate. failing primary schools. We do not think that academies should be restricted to secondary schools; we want to Dr Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast South) (SDLP): I see sponsored academies taking over primary schools congratulate the Prime Minister on his very wise decision where results are not good enough. All hon. Members to bring the G8 summit to County Fermanagh and can now focus on this: because of effective academy confirm the enthusiasm with which that decision has sponsors, some schools in inner-city areas are doing been received in Fermanagh. Does he think it will be better than schools in some of the leafy shires and possible to bring further similar prestigious events to suburbs. We can use that change to drive up aspiration Northern Ireland in the future? and achievement right across our education system. The Prime Minister: I will certainly look at that. It Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): Following the Prime really is the right decision for the G8 to be based in Minister’s answer to the hon. Member for Banbury (Sir Northern Ireland and at Lough Erne on 17 and 18 June. Tony Baldry) a moment ago, and given that the Church I was talking with the First Minister and Deputy First of England is the established Church, will the Prime Minister yesterday about this, and it would have been Minister consider what Parliament can do to ensure unthinkable 20 years ago to have such an event, with so that the overwhelming will of members of the Church many world leaders coming to Northern Ireland. It will and of the country is respected? be a great advertisement for Northern Ireland and everything that its people can achieve. I hope that it will The Prime Minister: I will certainly look carefully at also be the harbinger of further events to come. what the right hon. Gentleman has said. The Church has its own processes and elections. They might be hard Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): Does for some of us to understand, but we must respect the Prime Minister agree that the United Kingdom’s individual institutions and the decisions they make. retention of its triple A status, when France lost its That does not mean we should hold back in saying what triple A rating this week, shows that the UK retains the we think. I am very clear that the time is right for confidence of international markets because of the women bishops—it was right many years ago. The difficult but necessary decisions that we are taking? Church needs to get on with it, as it were, and get with the programme, but we must respect individual institutions The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a good and how they work, while giving them a sharp prod. point. Because we have set out a clear plan, we are able to have low interest rates and international confidence, Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): The cut in this which is line 1, paragraph 1 of the proper growth plan country’s EU budget rebate, which was agreed by the for the UK. 581 21 NOVEMBER 2012 582

Point of Order BBC (Audit Arrangements and Publication of Invoices) 12.31 pm Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): No. 23) On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I understand that it is not a convention of the House of Commons for the 12.33 pm Second Church Estates Commissioner to make a statement to the House, but in the light of the extraordinary Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): I beg to decision of the General Synod of the Church of England move, last night not to have women bishops, is it possible to That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require the British have a statement from the hon. Gentleman setting out Broadcasting Corporation to publish all invoices for amounts in what the Church intends to do next, and what this excess of £500 each quarter; to allow unrestricted access to the means for the continuing discrimination in the other Corporation’s accounts by the National Audit Office; and for place with only men being eligible to sit in the House of connected purposes. Lords as Church of England bishops? I wish to state at the outset that I am a friend, strong supporter and advocate of the BBC. My original request Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her for this Bill stems back to May, and was preceded by point of order. She is right to say that it is no part of the protracted communications with the previous director- convention of this House that the Second Church Estates general, Mark Thompson, seeking to gain voluntary Commissioner makes statements to the House. The agreement on this Bill’s intentions. The events of recent right to make a statement of the kind that she has in weeks have nothing to do with my motivation in seeking mind is reserved to Ministers. The hon. Lady may to bring about greater transparency in how the licence however wish to explore whether the Minister for Women fee is spent, although some issues that have arisen help and Equalities has any responsibilities in relation to this to demonstrate the need for more openness, along with matter, and whether there are avenues by which she may the need for a cultural shift to respond to demands from pursue this issue. It is certainly open to the Minister for the public. The first element of the Bill would require Women and Equalities to make a statement to the the BBC to publish all invoices for more than £500 on a House. In the meantime, I would simply say that very quarterly basis. That would bring the corporation in strong voice to opinion in this House has been given line with local authorities and, although it would meet today on both sides. I will leave it there for today. the aspirations of the Government’s public transparency agenda and the Efficiency and Reform Group objectives, should not be interpreted as political interference. The Bill merely follows public expectation. The licence fee is the UK’s biggest regressive tax: the poorer one is, the greater the proportion of one’s income is spent on it. That places a strong moral obligation on the BBC to demonstrate that it is using money in the most prudent manner. Under the Bill, the BBC would allow the public to see exactly how their money was being spent, and that would encourage participation and scrutiny. That would lead to innovation, procurement and, ultimately, savings. The BBC would be better informed, and new opportunities could lead to better feedback and a change in its priorities. Naturally, the BBC’s special independence must be protected with appropriate safeguards, but they need to be set as an absolute minimum and seen as the exception rather than the rule. There are several examples of questionable expenditure that could be cited: business consultants, retirement dinners, accommodation charges, and the cost of sending 100—or even, in 2008, 175 staff—to cover US elections. I am sure that all hon. Members have enjoyed BBC hospitality in some way or another, but we need to know how much money is being spent. One constituent asked me how much was spent on after-show parties, after a successful series or even after every episode of “Strictly Come Dancing” or similar programmes. There are concerns about how some journalists compete personally and refuse to share resources. Why does the BBC pay to advertise through other media, when it already reaches nearly all the population? It is not that these activities are necessarily wrong, but the public have a right to know how much they cost. Publication of invoices would also provide an ongoing report on how many people are paid through personal services companies in their efforts to reduce income tax 583 BBC (Audit Arrangements and 21 NOVEMBER 2012 BBC (Audit Arrangements and 584 Publication of Invoices) Publication of Invoices) [Alun Cairns] the director-general have led to calls for the NAO to investigate. Unfortunately, the agreement means that it liability. The National Audit Office was originally refused is powerless to look into such matters. Even after the access in this area, yet on 2 May BBC News was all too Secretary of State said in the House that the NAO keen rightly to expose the fact that Ed Lester, the would investigate, the latter stated that it could not do former chief executive of the Student Loans Company, so immediately unless the BBC Trust referred itself for was paid through such an arrangement. The irony is such scrutiny. that that has been standard practice in the BBC for The publication arrangements are also worrying. By many years; it is just that it has been hidden. contrast to the NAO, which reports to Parliament and Public statements made by senior BBC figures suggest the public, the BBC reports to the BBC Trust, which that the organisation would be among the strongest then considers the matter and responds. That is followed supporters of the Bill. Unfortunately, there has been by a BBC management reaction, with rebuttals, and it is significant evidence of a lack of action on those statements. only then that the NAO investigation is passed to the Sir Michael Lyons and later Lord Patten have continued Secretary of State for publication. The BBC decides on to resist unrestricted access for the Comptroller and the timing. I am absolutely sure that all other bodies Auditor General. There is a series of correspondence would welcome such a privileged position in relation to between the Secretary of State and the chairmen on auditing. It puts considerable power and influence over gaining an agreement on the extent of access. The case reporting in the hands of the BBC, compared with of personal service companies is an example, because every other body. That situation has been questioned by we still do not know the details of the policy. the Select Committee and the Government, and efforts BBC talent is another area that needs investigation. It have been made to improve the situation. has become a catch-all title that extends well beyond Over recent years, there has rightly been increasing known personalities, arguably in an effort to block demand for greater transparency from the public. Some publication of more newsworthy data. I simply do not bodies, including this place, took longer to recognise it. accept that there should be a blanket ban on the publication Now all details are published, including potential conflicts of BBC talent details. In this day and age, it is difficult of interest. It is important that the BBC, like all bodies, to believe that the NAO does not have unrestricted responds to these demands and reacts to the Bill by access. How many other bodies are allowed to dictate voluntarily publishing invoices of £500 and over, and the terms and timing of audit investigations and opening all elements of its operations to the NAO. That publications? would underline the special role that the BBC plays in It is to the credit of the previous Secretary of State our nation. for Culture, Media and Sport that he secured a significant In closing, I suggest that the BBC could go even agreement earlier this year dramatically to improve the further by voluntarily publishing registers of interest of CAG’s access. However, there continues to be no right key people to highlight potential conflicts of interest, of access—it remains by agreement only. Nor does it and it could truly embrace the spirit and the letter of cover the whole scope of NAO activities. The the Freedom of Information Act. Unless the BBC responds correspondence suggests that respective BBC chairmen positively, I fear that it could be the subject of future frustrated the calls by the Secretary of State, the Culture, legislative demands. Media and Sport Committee and the Broadcasting Question put and agreed to. Committee in the other place. Restrictions remain, and Ordered, the time has come to legislate. That Alun Cairns, Mr David Amess, Mr Richard Current arrangements mean that the BBC must agree Bacon, Guto Bebb, Stephen Barclay, Dan Byles, Philip to the area the NAO wishes to investigate. The NAO Davies, Robert Halfon, Dr Phillip Lee, Ian Paisley and needs to give 12 months’ notice of its plans, which can James Wharton present the Bill. only be amended at stated quarterly intervals. This is hardly unrestricted access; nor does it allow investigations Alun Cairns accordingly presented the Bill. into controversial news developments to take place. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Recent concern surrounding the terms of departure of Friday 25 January 2013, and to be printed (Bill 92). 585 21 NOVEMBER 2012 Security in Northern Ireland 586

record the gains that have been made through devolution Opposition Day in Northern Ireland. Even today, my hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) has [10TH ALLOTTED DAY] tabled early-day motion 752, which draws attention to Security in Northern Ireland other significant achievements for Belfast and Londonderry, which is now recognised as the fourth best city in the 12.44 pm world to visit, according to the “Lonely Planet” guide, and will be the UK city of culture next year. These are Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): I beg to immense strides forward in Northern Ireland. I pay move, tribute to everyone, right across the community and That this House extends its deepest sympathy to the family of across all parties, who has played a part in bringing Prison Officer David Black, whose murder represented an attack about that progress and, of course, to successive upon society as a whole; condemns the violence of the various Governments as well. republican terrorist groups now active in Northern Ireland; and calls on the Government to work closely with the Northern But Mr Black’s murder showed us that, despite the Ireland Executive in providing the fullest possible protection to progress that has been made in Northern Ireland, there members of the prison service and the security forces generally, remains a crazed and fanatical republican element that and to ensure that all necessary resources and measures are is determined to try to drag our community backwards, deployed to combat the threat from terrorists in Northern Ireland. into the darkest days of the past. Just last Monday a At the very outset of this debate I want once again to viable explosive device, which police said was designed place on record, on behalf of my hon. Friends, and I am to kill and maim, was discovered near my constituency sure everybody in this House, our heartfelt and sincere off the Ballygomartin road. The device was found near condolences to the family, friends and colleagues of a local school—Springhill primary school—and if it Prison Officer David Black—an innocent public servant had gone off, the consequences, in terms of loss of life going to work when he was brutally gunned down in or serious injury to innocent civilians and schoolchildren, cold blood by despicable criminals. His death will leave would have been very serious indeed. The device is a massive void in the lives of his wife and children that thought to have fallen from the vehicle that belonged to will never be filled. We continue to think of Mrs Black its intended target, either a police officer or a soldier. and her children; our thoughts and prayers are with That incident, coming after the murder of David them. There is no doubt that Mrs Black’s call at the Black, shows that we are in a very serious situation time of her husband’s murder for no retaliation was an indeed. Nor do we forget the murder of Constable example of immense courage and bravery, which, as I Ronan Kerr in April last year, or the murder of Constable said in response to the Secretary of State’s statement at Stephen Carroll in March 2009, which came just two the time, stood in stark contrast to the darkness in the days after the killing of Sappers Patrick Azimkar and hearts of her husband’s killers. We will remember him Mark Quinsey at Massereene barracks. All those murders and his colleagues, and all those who have died in the were carried out by so-called dissident republicans. service of defending Northern Ireland. It is our duty to There have also been many attacks and incidents that do all we can, as far as possible, to ensure that this kind have been successfully thwarted by the excellent work of of violence is thwarted and defeated. the police, through intelligence and co-operation with There is no doubt about the progress that has been other elements of the security forces, including those in made in Northern Ireland over recent years. As the the Irish Republic. These murders all demonstrate the Prime Minister has said, his announcement yesterday intent of the republican groups and the greater degree that Fermanagh would host the G8 summit next June of planning and organisation that is now evident. would have previously been unthinkable—he said it would have been unthinkable 20 years ago, but I think it It is sometimes easy, especially from the perspective would have been unthinkable even 10 years ago. It is an of those on this side of the Irish sea, to believe that immense opportunity for Northern Ireland to showcase everything in Northern Ireland is now sorted out. its talents and the opportunities that we can provide to a worldwide audience. It is a momentous event. We Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind): I am sure the warmly welcome the announcement and thank the Prime right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues would agree Minister for taking that step, which is a mark of the that it would be helpful if the Government were to progress we have made. Another was the visit by Her sanction the publication of the inventories of the weapons Majesty to the Irish Republic last year and the diamond that were decommissioned by loyalist terrorists—because jubilee celebrations that took place in Northern Ireland, that is what they were—and republican terrorists, supervised where for the first time in decades—I think maybe for by the Independent International Commission on the first time ever—Her Majesty was able to be greeted Decommissioning, so that the people of Northern Ireland by thousands of ordinary people in Belfast and move and of the United Kingdom generally could compare about in an open-top vehicle without the massive security what is claimed to have been decommissioned with that would normally attend any kind of event involving what we reckon still to be available out there to enable Her Majesty. Again, that is an indication of the progress dissident republicans to carry out yet another ghastly that has been made. murder. I join the right hon. Gentleman in condemning There is also the ongoing work that happens every the murder of the prison officer and in giving the day at Stormont and throughout Northern Ireland—parties greatest praise to his wonderful family, who have shown working together, alongside the First and Deputy First themselves to be beacons of dignity. Ministers, with Ministers representing a number of parties doing the day-to-day work of government, Mr Dodds: I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention. committed to working for and on behalf of all the She raises an issue that has been raised a number of people of Northern Ireland. It is important to put on times by Members from Northern Ireland and elsewhere 587 Security in Northern Ireland21 NOVEMBER 2012 Security in Northern Ireland 588

[Mr Dodds] conflict in which there could be grey areas and justifications. The violence that was carried out by the Provisional about the decommissioning process. We have said on IRA, and others, for 35 years was just as evil as the previous occasions that it would be useful for the process violence that is being carried out today. It was never that we are engaged in if the public were allowed to justified then, and it is not justified now. know exactly what was decommissioned by the various terrorist groups in Northern Ireland. I remember attending Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): I entirely meetings with the decommissioning body, along with agree with the right hon. Gentleman. A few days ago, I other hon. Friends, at which we sought clarification as attended the remembrance service to mark the 25th to the circumstances in which that information would anniversary of the Enniskillen bomb, and nothing could eventually be released. My understanding was that a have made the point that he is making more clearly than judgment would be made at a suitable juncture when that. The unnecessary nature of that act still lives with the entire decommissioning process was finished. It was us today. I echo his assertion that we must never forget certainly the intention of General de Chastelain, who those people either. was then the chairman of the decommissioning body, that the information should be released in due course. It Mr Dodds: It was excellent that the hon. Gentleman would be helpful if it were released, for the reasons that and colleagues from the Northern Ireland Select Committee the hon. Lady has given. were able to be in Enniskillen to join the First Minister and other elected representatives, the families of the We were among those who wanted the greatest possible victims and members of the community in County transparency for the decommissioning process. Indeed, Fermanagh on that solemn occasion. There are many we pressed for it to be made clear to the public, through reminders: we are coming up to the anniversary of the video evidence and photographs, exactly what was being Ballykelly bombing as well. These events serve to remind decommissioned. Famously, however, the republican us of the callous, evil and despicable nature of the leadership refused to abide by that at the time. violence that was carried out against the people of Unfortunately, their refusal to accept that reasonable Northern Ireland and against the security forces. argument, which was designed to reassure people in It is worth remembering what happened in Enniskillen Northern Ireland that what was happening was real and in 1987. One of those who was killed was a close sincere, delayed the introduction of devolution by some personal friend of mine. Enniskillen is the town where I considerable time. It raised doubts about the sincerity grew up and went to school, and I knew many of the of the republican movement. people who were involved in that incident. The fact that I was making the point that people can sometimes now, 25 years on, the Prime Minister of the United fall into the belief that everything has been sorted out Kingdom is able to announce the gathering of the and settled, so far as Northern Ireland is concerned. world’s leaders for a G8 summit in that same county of The events that I have been describing, including the Fermanagh is a fantastic illustration of the progress tragic murder of David Black, have served to remind that has been made, and a fantastic vindication of the everyone that massive challenges remain. I know that courage and steadfastness of the ordinary people who the Ministers and shadow Ministers who are here today stood against the terrorists and were determined that do not hold that belief, but it is important that we they would not succeed in tearing down the fabric of should debate the issues here today and consider them their society. carefully. We need to take note of the progress that has been made, as well as making it clear to the people of Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): I should like to pay Northern Ireland that there is no complacency and no tribute to the ongoing courage and steadfastness of the sense of the challenges being underestimated. people of Northern Ireland, especially the officials there. The criminals want to take the United Kingdom and We do not quite understand how the right hon. and Northern Ireland back to the days of death, bloodshed hon. Gentlemen and Ladies who represent constituencies and mayhem, but all of us in Northern Ireland and in Northern Ireland live with a certain threat. They have here, throughout the country, are determined that they to go outside their house and check their car, for example, will not succeed. After the death of David Black, the and they can never be certain what is going to happen. First Minister said: That tension is there in their lives all the time. I hope that when they come over here, that tension lessens, but “The Assembly and the Executive will not fall or collapse—far from it. We are united in condemnation and reinforced in our the people of Northern Ireland never get rid of it. This determination to create a stable, shared and peaceful society.” House must always understand that the tension remains: we want it to go, but the only way of achieving that is by He was absolutely right in his assessment. Those evil continuing developments towards peace. people will not succeed. Such terrorism did not succeed in the past, and it will not succeed now. Mr Dodds: The hon. Gentleman has enormous It is important to make the point that the violence experience, having served in Northern Ireland. He and that was carried out in the past, over 30 or 40 years, by his colleagues who served in the armed forces have the Provisional IRA was just as despicable, unnecessary helped to contribute to bringing about the peaceful and evil as the violence that is being carried out today circumstances of today. He is right to remind us of the by the so-called dissidents. I echo the point made by the continuing issues that many people, including members hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) that of the security forces, have. I shall come on to deal with the violence that was carried out by other groups, on the the issues affecting prison officers in more detail shortly. loyalist side, was terrorism. It is important for the sake Members of those forces in our constituencies have of the victims that we do not get into a mindset of come to our offices and have spoken to us about their thinking that all the violence today is terrible while the worries about their personal security. The hon. Gentleman violence that took place in the past was part of a is right that members of the police service and people 589 Security in Northern Ireland21 NOVEMBER 2012 Security in Northern Ireland 590 who are connected in any way with the security forces pointed out, members of the security forces were told might be seen as some kind of target by these dissident that they had to move. The criteria for qualifying under terrorists. We all live daily with these kinds of threats or the SPED scheme have a quite high threshold, so people potential threats. People often say, “Well, there’s no are granted support only in the most extreme circumstances specific intelligence out there to indicate that any particular where their life may be in danger. People often find individual is at risk”, yet we have discovered—we know themselves with negative equity—a problem not of their from the recent tragic events—that that does not necessarily own creation. provide any reassurance at all. I am grateful to the hon. A wider issue connected with the SPED scheme, Gentleman for his comments. about which I have been concerned for some time, is the The victims, to whom we referred earlier, continue to fact that the money spent on the scheme comes out of live with the scars and wounds of the violence inflicted the Northern Ireland housing budget. I think that is on them—and they will carry those wounds to their something that needs to be looked at. SPED is a security- graves. It is important that we never forget the sacrifice related measure, so it needs to be looked at in that of the innocent and the victims and their families and context rather than being seen as a housing issue. The the loved ones left behind. specific matter raised by my right hon. Friend has, I Coming on to the issue of personal security, prison think, been the subject of some discussion between the officers and their families are living every day with the Minister of Justice, the Chief Constable and the Minister threat of murder and injury hanging over their heads. for Social Development. It is certainly an issue that we During the worst of the violence in the Province, more need to continue to raise on behalf of our constituents. than two dozen prison officers lost their lives to terrorists. This was a deliberate strategy by republicans and loyalists Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The SPED scheme to win concessions for their prisoners serving time for is clearly intended to help those who are in particular terrorist-related offences. Just as the murder of those trouble. As a result of the tragic murder of David officers was met with widespread and near-universal Black, a number of prison officers from my constituency revulsion in the community in the past, so will this latest who were worried about the SPED scheme came to see attempt to intimidate and suborn the forces of law and me. I hope that in the response to this debate the order. Government will outline how the SPED system can be On personal protection for prison officers, police sped up—how it could work faster, to a time scale that officers and their families, we have some serious concerns people need. Secondly, can some consideration be given about the present personal protection arrangements—the to people who have to move out of their houses quickly— maintenance of protection equipment, for instance, in the costs of buying a new house, getting a new mortgage, the homes and other places where members of the security and so on? Many aspects of the SPED scheme need to forces have those arrangements in place. The arrangements be sorted out. Perhaps the Government will give us must be robust enough to ensure the security of those some response on that today. who work in our prisons and in our police service. This is an area in which the Government have a duty to act. Mr Dodds: My hon. Friend is right to raise that issue, The Northern Ireland Office and the Secretary of State as it is a real practical outworking and consequence of oversee the home protection scheme, which prison and the current security situation in Northern Ireland. The police officers avail themselves of, and it is within their issue has not arisen only in the past few weeks or only power to ensure that the fullest possible protection is following the tragic murder of David Black; it has been afforded to those officers. I encourage them to do an issue for some considerable time. People have been everything in their power in that regard. told about security issues by the police. As the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) mentioned, Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): Is Members of this House have been spoken to about my right hon. Friend aware that under the special personal security issues. For obvious reasons, we are purchase of evacuated dwellings scheme in Northern not going to go into the detail, but these are serious Ireland—I accept that this is mainly a devolved matter, issues. It is entirely wrong that people who qualify but it touches on national security issues— we have under the SPED scheme and find themselves having prison officers, police officers and others who have had their house purchased in order to move should face to leave their family home and move to alternative terrible financial consequences, given that their lives are accommodation? They are being seriously disadvantaged at risk and they find themselves in that position through because the value of their home has reduced significantly, the fault of terrorists and through no fault whatever of particularly if they purchased it at the height of the their own. property boom. They now face the prospect of losing a I know of a number of prison officers who have been lot of money. Should we not be looking to find ways of told that they qualify for the Prison Service’s protection compensating those people who, through no fault of scheme and measures but who have been refused other their own—it was because of a security threat—now protection offered by the Northern Ireland Office and find themselves out of their home and facing a substantial the Northern Ireland Executive. There is clearly an loss? issue, and I seek the reassurance of the Secretary of State—I am sure she will be able to give it—that there is Mr Dodds: My right hon. Friend raises an important no question of resources or money forming any part of issue, which I know has been raised in the context of the any decision to deny any police officer or prison officer Northern Ireland Assembly. I know that the Minister the protection that they need to be given under any for Social Development, whose Department administers scheme to ensure their personal security. We would all the SPED scheme in Northern Ireland, has also been agree that we should pay tribute to all those who do looking at this issue. As my right hon. Friend rightly such sterling service, but it has to go beyond just paying 591 Security in Northern Ireland21 NOVEMBER 2012 Security in Northern Ireland 592

[Mr Dodds] entitled “The Threat to National Security”, Jonathan Evans, the director general of the Security Service, tribute to them. When things happen, we should take noted that the largest dividing lines between the various cognisance of their concerns and as far as possible avert republican dissident terrorists groups at that time were any kind of threat to them. That applies, of course, based on right across the board. “marginal distinctions or personal rivalries”. The issuing of licences to carry personal protection It is now clear to many of us that those marginal weapons has been raised with me and other colleagues, distinctions and personal rivalries have, to some extent, along with the refusal to renew those licences for people ceased to exist, and that the groups are starting to who have legitimate and well-founded concerns about coalesce, which is an extremely serious development. I their personal security. There has been a tendency for understand that the “IRA” group which has claimed that to happen in recent years. A week or two ago, a responsibility for the murder of David Black appears to man came to my office and told me that although he consist of elements of the Real IRA and other factions had been informed that he was under threat, his personal based in the Lurgan area, and that is certainly very protection weapon licence was being withdrawn, which serious. he found incomprehensible. He was told that because he The Secretary of State must conduct a review to was no longer serving, the threat had been reduced. establish whether the proscriptions that already apply However, although there is no intelligence relating to to the various terrorist organisations in Northern Ireland him suggesting the existence of a specific threat, he feels apply to the newly formed umbrella group. If they do that he is under threat and in danger, and has given the not, the Government must move to apply them without example of his neighbour David Black, who was murdered. delay. If it is proved that a person is involved in such One can understand how that man feels. He has gone activity, that person should face the full rigour of the through all the proper processes and is now forced to law, and should be in no doubt that he or she will spend consider legal action, at his own expense, so that he can a very long time in prison. try to secure the minimal protection that would afford Many inhabitants of Northern Ireland are greatly him peace of mind and enable him to sleep in his home concerned when they hear of an incident, hear that at night. The Police Service of Northern Ireland needs certain people have been questioned and arrested—and to pay close attention to such issues. When appeals are have been continually questioned and arrested in connection considered by the Northern Ireland Office, the Secretary with similar offences—and then hear that, unfortunately, of State and other Ministers have a role to play. I know they have either been released after a few days, or have that the Secretary of State will also pay close attention not been convicted when brought to trial. Those living to those issues, because they are of real concern to in the area in which such people operate, and in Northern people and we have raised them in the past. Ireland generally, are well aware of the serious threat The people of Northern Ireland have suffered for too that is posed. long as a consequence of the acts of terrorists down the Of course we must be conscious of the rule of law years. Those of us who know our history are aware that and of due process. However, bearing in mind the the Provisional IRA, which wreaked so much havoc in efforts that are made to remove people from the United our country for so many years, started out as a splinter Kingdom, here in London or elsewhere, because they group. It is easy nowadays to dismiss groups that are pose a threat to national security, many of my constituents currently active as “splinter groups”, “small groups” or ask me what real efforts are being made—proactively as “micro-groups”, but it should be borne in mind that the opposed to reactively, following a terrible event—to get Provos originated as a breakaway movement from the to grips with individuals who are known by the police, official IRA. If we are not to condemn a further generation and indeed by everyone, to be involved in serious acts of in Ulster, we must act swiftly and decisively, now, to terrorism and criminality and the organisation of terrorist bring those people to book. acts. That is another issue that the Secretary of State A short time ago, the Home Secretary announced should address. that the level of threat from dissident republicans here The apparent closer organisation of dissident terror on the mainland of Great Britain had been reduced groups in Northern Ireland adds greatly to the challenges from “substantial” to “moderate”. In Northern Ireland, facing the PSNI and the security forces. All necessary it remains “substantial”. At that time, in the House, I resources must be made available to the Chief Constable expressed the fear of many people that the announcement to combat the terrorist threat. Early in 2011, the might have been premature and somewhat counter- Government announced the provision of an additional productive. I said that given the recent experience of £200 million for the PSNI budget to enable the police to intelligence reports, or the lack of them, people needed counteract the dissident republican terrorist threat, and to be reassured that there would be no reduction in at the same time the Northern Ireland Executive provided security, and no complacency on the part of the security an extra £45 million for security purposes. That money forces. I should be grateful if the Secretary of State was received very gratefully by the police, and I assure would tell us whether the Government have sought or the House that it has been critical to ensuring that more received any new assessment in the wake of the murder people have not been murdered at the hands of terrorists. of David Black, and whether they are satisfied with the However, the police will face a range of challenges in current threat level assessment overall. the months ahead. The Chief Constable has expressed Many people seemed surprised by the announcement concern about what the forthcoming comprehensive that the various dissident groups had united to form an spending review will mean for the delivery of front-line umbrella group which styled itself simply “the IRA”. policing services. I urge the Government to look favourably That was the group that claimed responsibility for the on any future request for additional resources, beyond murder of David Black. In a speech in September 2010 the block grant allocation. The Chief Constable has 593 Security in Northern Ireland21 NOVEMBER 2012 Security in Northern Ireland 594 made no call for extra money so far, but the Government Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): On the issue of should not be surprised if such a call is made in the crime in general, does the right hon. Gentleman agree future. that, as a consequence of our history of paramilitary The circumstances faced by the police in Northern activity, racketeering is a particular problem in Northern Ireland are way beyond the day-to-day challenges and Ireland, as many people who have moved away from problems faced by any regional police force in England, their paramilitary past have not moved away from its Scotland or Wales. The rate at which officers are leaving associated criminality? the force is higher than expected. The PSNI is losing, Mr Dodds: The hon. Lady and I both represent through retirement, a great deal of the experience and Belfast constituencies, so we know very well the problems expertise in key fields such as crime investigation and that remain. She is right to highlight the link between counter-terrorism that are so crucial in counteracting criminality and people who were formerly heavily engaged terrorism. As a consequence of the faster than expected in paramilitary activity. That has been an enormous retirement rate, a new recruitment campaign will be problem. Although many people formerly involved in launched next year, but it will obviously take time to paramilitary organisations are today making genuine plug the gaps caused by the loss of senior and experienced efforts to move their communities forward, unfortunately officers. others try to have a foot in both camps. We must ensure A judicial review of the use of managed services that the full rigour of the law comes down upon those contracts by the PSNI is currently under way. If it who want to have it both ways, but we should help those succeeds, it will pose an enormous risk to the capacity who have genuinely changed. of the police service. I believe that binding the hands of There is no doubt that the overall security situation is the police in such a way risks the incurring of massive very different now from that 25 years ago. However, costs, perhaps amounting to between £50 million and although the dark days of the past have gone, it would £60 million a year. The PSNI has been forced to employ be reckless to ignore the significant challenges we face. agency staff, as a direct result—in my view—of the We must therefore debate these matters, as we are doing Patten report, which had the effect of driving years of today. I look forward to hearing from the Secretary of experience and expertise out of the police service and State, and I commend the motion to the House. creating a massive void in talent and skills within the organisation. The Auditor and Comptroller General 1.24 pm has acknowledged that the police in Northern Ireland face a major challenge because of a loss of talent which The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mrs Theresa is without precedent in any other public sector body. Villiers): It is an honour to follow the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds), who made a very considered Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): As my right hon. speech in which he set out some of the serious concerns Friend knows, increasing numbers of PSNI officers are that are felt about security in Northern Ireland. I welcome resigning from the service. That is a trend at present, his emphasis on the positive achievements as well, however, rather than a spike, but more officers now join and and the steps that have been taken to transform the spend just a few years in the service, rather than a security situation for the better over recent years. lifetime. Instead of dedicating themselves to a career, I thank the right hon. Gentleman and his Democratic many of them now get out after a short time. That Unionist party colleagues for providing the House with makes it more difficult for the PSNI to serve the public this opportunity to debate what is a very important properly. subject not only for Northern Ireland, but for the entire United Kingdom. Sadly, it is inevitable that our debate Mr Dodds: I agree. That trend is clear in many of our this afternoon has been overshadowed by the despicable local areas, even among senior officers. My constituency murder of Prison Officer David Black as he drove to of Belfast North faces big policing challenges: as well as work one morning after 30 years of dedicated service to addressing the security threat, our PSNI officers have to his community. As the right hon. Gentleman said, that police protests against parades and civil disturbances act of brutality serves to remind us all of the continuing such as those we saw over the summer. Increasingly, we threat posed by the individuals who reject the principles are seeing senior police officers staying in the area for a of democracy and consent, and instead seek to pursue relatively short period of time. Just when they have their aims by violence and murder. In answer to the started to get to know the area and its issues and questions the right hon. Gentleman put to me in his various personalities on all sides they are moved on speech, the UK Government’s efforts to combat that somewhere else, and a new officer comes in and that terrorist threat remain resolute. process starts all over again. I know that all Members in the House today will Having said that, I pay tribute to our police officers at continue to keep the family, friends and colleagues of both senior and rank-and-file level. They do a very David Black in our thoughts as they seek to cope with good job in very difficult circumstances, but they need their devastating loss. I join the right hon. Gentleman in to be backed up with the assurance that whatever paying tribute to the dignified and courageous response resources are needed to combat the threat of terrorism of Mrs Black. I also want to update the House on the will be given to them. They must be assured that they investigation. Of course, I can share few details with will not have to scrimp and save, because the public in colleagues in this public forum, but the news this morning Northern Ireland are entitled to the ordinary benefits of is that two further arrests have been made and searches policing as well. Northern Ireland faces serious issues to have been carried out in the Coalisland area. I repeat do with not only the troubles, but drugs, burglary and the appeal I made previously in my statement to the community policing. Our constituents must not suffer House: anyone with information on this crime or any in those regards because resources are diverted to tackle other terrorist activity in Northern Ireland should come terrorism. forward and contact the police as a matter of urgency. 595 Security in Northern Ireland21 NOVEMBER 2012 Security in Northern Ireland 596

[Mrs Theresa Villiers] people of Ireland, north and south, who voted overwhelmingly to back the political settlement we have As well as being a personal tragedy, this cowardly today. Yet it is all too clear that these disparate groupings murder represents an attack on the wider community. can still cause damage and ruin lives. Yet contrary to the ambitions of the so-called dissidents, such attacks serve only to strengthen the determination Ian Paisley: I am not suggesting, in any way, that the of the vast majority in all parts of the community to Secretary of State’s words imply any level of complacency move forward and to see violence and terrorism left about the strength of support in the community for behind as part of Northern Ireland’s past, and not its dissident terrorists, but in the last elections dissident future. I also join the right hon. Gentleman in praising republican terrorist candidates achieved 2,000 votes in the response of the First Minister and Deputy First the two west Belfast wards of the Falls—that is in the Minister who were resolute in their condemnation of heartland of Sinn Fein. We must recognise that if this Mr Black’s murder. Similar condemnations came from beast is not dealt with decisively now, it will grow. We the rest of the UK, the Republic of Ireland and the saw that in the past with the provisionals, who were United States, demonstrating the widespread revulsion small in number but are now the largest republican at what happened that morning on the M1 motorway. party—nationalist, constitutional party—in Northern They also demonstrate our unity of purpose in ensuring Ireland. It could happen again. that these terrorists will never succeed in wrecking the progress that has been made, or in dragging Northern Mrs Villiers: I can reassure the hon. Gentleman that Ireland back to its troubled past. the Government remain vigilant on the terrorist threat; we are taking it extremely seriously. As he will see as my remarks conclude, we believe that tackling the terrorist Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Does threat effectively requires not just a security response, the Secretary of State agree that in acknowledging the but a wider strategy designed to choke off any potential tremendous dignity of the Black family in calling on the support for the so-called “dissident groupings”. I think community to ensure that there be no act of revenge for there is widespread acceptance that securing a prosperous the murder of David, we must also acknowledge that Northern Ireland and breaking down sectarian barriers the family has also demanded that those who perpetrated is also an important way to respond in order to eliminate this act be brought to justice? the terrorist threat on a long-term basis. As I say, I will come back to that subject later. Mrs Villiers: I, too, believe that every effort must be made to bring to justice the people responsible for this The threat level in Northern Ireland remains severe, despicable murder, and I am sure the PSNI is doing meaning that an attack is highly likely. No alteration everything in its power to ensure that that happens. has been made to that Security Service assessment, although, as the right hon. Member for Belfast North Lady Hermon: As the Secretary of State will know, recognised, the threat level in Great Britain has been with the murder of David Black, 30 prison officers have adjusted. We remain vigilant in both Northern Ireland now been murdered in Northern Ireland. The Royal and Great Britain, because the terrorists have capability Ulster Constabulary George Cross Foundation has a and they have lethal intent. This year has seen 22 national beautiful memorial garden at police headquarters in security attacks in Northern Ireland. Although some Belfast. Please will the Secretary of State support the may have lacked sophistication, they all had the potential establishment of a memorial garden for murdered prison to be deadly. Many involved crude pipe bombs, primarily officers in Northern Ireland? Organisations including used to target PSNI officers or their families. The right the Prison Officers Association have long campaigned hon. Gentleman highlighted an attack in his constituency, valiantly on this issue, and its chairman, Finlay Spratt, and another particularly reckless attack was the has given sterling leadership. Plans were afoot seven abandonment of a large improvised explosive device years ago. Such a garden would be a wonderful tribute containing more than 600 lb of home-made explosive to David Black and the other prison officers who have near the Irish border at Newry—the device was successfully been murdered through the years of terrorism. It would defused, but if it had detonated, it could have led to a be a fit and proper gesture and acknowledgement of the significant loss of life. Terrorists continue to seek access sacrifice made by prison officers through 30 years of to funding and weaponry, and they have been undertaking terrible events in Northern Ireland. training as well as targeting. Both republican and loyalist groupings are still involved in a range of criminal Mrs Villiers: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that activities—mention has been made of this—to fund thoughtful suggestion. The Minister of State and I will their activities and individual lifestyles. certainly reflect on it, and I am happy to discuss it with Bob Stewart: Is it possible for my right hon. Friend to the Northern Ireland Executive. say publicly where the main sources of funding for The right hon. Member for Belfast North referred to terrorism are coming from? the new grouping that has apparently formed in Northern Ireland from a number of different terrorist groups. My Mrs Villiers: My hon. Friend will appreciate that emphasis would be on the fact that however they brand there is a limit to what can be said publicly, but there themselves, these groupings are condemned across Northern can be no doubt that these criminal activities are playing Ireland, the Republic of Ireland and the UK. The a significant part in funding terrorist activities. numbers involved in dissident activity continue to be The republican and loyalist groupings also continue small. The dissidents have almost no support, they to carry out paramilitary-style assaults on members of despise the progress that has been made in Northern their own community. Such attacks are sickening and Ireland over the past two decades and they act in show a complete disregard for the victims and their defiance of the democratically expressed wishes of the families. Terrorists also seek to capitalise on any instances 597 Security in Northern Ireland21 NOVEMBER 2012 Security in Northern Ireland 598 of public disorder or unrest. During rioting in north representative of the community it serves, it is one of Belfast on 12 July a number of shots were fired at police the most transparent and rigorously scrutinised police officers. That should be considered as nothing less than services in the world, and I believe that it has the the attempted murder of police officers, who were there confidence of a significant majority of the people of simply to uphold the law and protect people from all Northern Ireland. I pay the fullest tribute to the work parts of the community. I would like to assure the right that Matt Baggott and his officers do in exceptionally hon. Member for Belfast North that the PSNI gives the difficult circumstances. They carry out their duties with highest priority to protecting the safety of its officers. professionalism, impartiality and bravery—that is also Indeed, one way in which the £200 million that the UK true of the Prison Service. Government allocated as additional spending to counter the terrorist threat is being deployed is in enabling the Lady Hermon: I am grateful to the Secretary of State PSNI to enhance measures to protect its officers. Measures for taking yet another intervention. She quite rightly to protect police officers are, of course, kept under mentioned the additional resources given to the Chief constant review by the PSNI. The Chief Constable Constable, Matt Baggott, and to the PSNI. We are takes all the steps he can to protect his officers from the absolutely thrilled that next year the G8 summit will terror threat they face, while retaining his firm commitment come to Fermanagh. That is not in my constituency, to community policing. however—could the summit come to North Down next The right hon. Gentleman emphasised the importance time? Although we are thrilled about that, will the of the home protection scheme. As he said, the Northern Secretary of State confirm—to the relief of us all—that Ireland Office has important responsibilities in relation additional resources will be made available to the PSNI to the scheme, and we keep those under constant review, for the increased security commitment? I am sure that too. Our scheme exists to protect people in certain the PSNI will deliver on that commitment to the best of occupations or positions in public life who are assessed its ability, but it needs finance to do so. to be under “substantial” or “severe” threat. The Minister Mrs Villiers: We are committed to ensuring that the of State considers other applications where an individual policing and security operation for the G8 summit is a is assessed to be under a real or immediate threat, under success. Of course, appropriate resources will be allocated our obligations under article 2 of the European convention and we will make an announcement in due course, on human rights. The PSNI also runs the criminal probably in January, about the budget. threats scheme and home security aid scheme, in addition As I have said, Prison Service officers also carry out to the Northern Ireland Office’s programme. A range of their duties with dedication and courage and I am sure security measures are provided depending on the threat the whole House will join me in paying tribute to the in each case—I am afraid that it would not be appropriate work they do. They play a vital role in keeping people in for me to go into detail. Northern Ireland safe from harm and the Northern Jim Shannon: Intelligence does not always specifically Ireland Prison Service keeps arrangements for the personal target the correct person; sometimes it does not target security of its officers under constant review. The director the person who has been the subject of a murder general of the service, Sue McAllister, is actively considering attempt or indeed the person who has been murdered. what further measures might need to be taken in the People have come to my office who did not have a wake of the attack on David Black and the PSNI has a specific threat yet travel the same road where people programme of security briefings under way for prison have been murdered or where a murder attempt has officers. been made. Is there not sometimes a need for more Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): I flexibility in the system when it comes to assessing not am grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way and only someone’s individual circumstances, but whether I apologise for not being in the Chamber from the start to issue a protection weapon? of the debate. She explained to the House how she and her colleague the Minister of State have responsibility Mrs Villiers: Of course in all these cases it is important for the home protection scheme. She is now discussing to look at individual circumstances, and I recommend measures to be taken by the Prison Service and has to anyone who considers that they are under threat that mentioned measures to be taken by the Police Service, they approach the PSNI about the matter to see what and following devolution they are the responsibility of mitigation steps can be taken. the Justice Minister and the various agencies. Will she PSNI officers remain the repeated focus of dissident reassure the House that, although the responsibilities attack planning, with prison officers targeted as well. are separate, every effort is being made to ensure that Terrorist groupings have continued to use hoax devices, the effectiveness of all the measures is joined together acts of criminal damage or orchestrated disorder to wherever possible? create fear in the community and to draw police into situations where they might be vulnerable to attack. Mrs Villiers: The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely That tactic is designed to make it harder for the PSNI to right. I emphasise that working relationships between provide community-style policing. It is also, bluntly, the Northern Ireland Office and the Justice Minister are aimed at deterring people from joining the police, very close and I discuss these matters with David Ford particularly those from the Catholic community. Yet we regularly, as well as with the Chief Constable. As the should recognise that confidence levels in policing across right hon. Gentleman said, a united effort that co-ordinates Northern Ireland have actually risen steadily. Chief our respective areas of responsibility is crucial in combating Constable Matt Baggott continues to place community terrorism. I have held a number of discussions about policing at the heart of his approach, and the proportion the David Black murder with the Chief Constable and of Catholics in the PSNI has gone up from 8% in 2001 the Justice Minister, and the Minister of State has been to more than 30% today. The PSNI is genuinely in discussions with the Prison Service, too. 599 Security in Northern Ireland21 NOVEMBER 2012 Security in Northern Ireland 600

[Mrs Villiers] Mrs Villiers: The PSNI has been very clear that it has the resources it needs to combat the terrorist threat, The SPED scheme has been mentioned. It falls within which includes certain technical support from the military. the devolved space but I am happy to pass on the For our part, the Government are determined to comments made today to the responsible Ministers in everything we can to keep the people of Northern the Northern Ireland Executive. I am sure that they will Ireland safe and secure. On coming to power we endorsed wish to reflect carefully on the comments that have been an additional £50 million for the PSNI. In 2010, our made and I am sure that they take their responsibilities national security strategy included countering Northern in this matter very seriously. Ireland-related terrorism as a tier 1 priority and, as we Personal protection weapons were also mentioned. have heard, an additional £200 million over four years Issuing or withdrawing personal protection is a matter was provided to the PSNI to tackle the threat from for the Chief Constable, as the matter is devolved, and terrorism. the only NIO involvement is when someone appeals The right hon. Member for Belfast North asked what against a decision made by the Chief Constable. The will happen at the end of the period covered by that director general of the Prison Service met the PSNI funding settlement. Those are matters for the forthcoming recently to ensure that any prison officer who feels they spending review, but the Government will continue to need a PPW can apply to the police under the normal do all we can to support the PSNI and its partners in procedures. Following concerns raised after the murder their efforts to tackle the terrorist threat. I am sure the of David Black, Sue McAllister said: points made in the debate today will be carefully considered “I have checked and to my knowledge no prison officer has when decisions are made on future spending reviews. been told that his or her personal protection weapon is to be withdrawn”. Jim Shannon: My right hon. Friend the Member for She went on to say: Belfast North (Mr Dodds) made a very specific point “I will certainly be making sure that any prison officer who about the SPED scheme moneys being drawn out of the wishes to have a personal protection weapon will be able to apply Department for Social Development’s money. The specific to the police service as per our procedures.” issue affects Northern Ireland, but the security of Northern Ireland is a matter not just for Northern Ireland but for David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): The Secretary the whole United Kingdom. Will the right hon. Lady of State referred to serving members. Will she also take consider providing extra funding for the DSD in Northern into consideration those men and women who have Ireland to cover the movement of people from house to served their country faithfully and also deserve to receive house through the SPED scheme? personal protection weapons in some shape or form? Mrs Villiers: I am sure that when decisions are ultimately Mrs Villiers: I am certain that in making decisions on taken on the Northern Ireland block grant and future personal protection weapons, the PSNI will have careful spending reviews, appropriate consideration will be given regard to the security issues relating to not just present to the security situation in Northern Ireland. members of the Prison Service but to former members. Ministers and security advisers meet regularly to I am confident that we have a process that is rigorous in review our counter-terrorism strategy and to ensure assessing those risks and I am sure that they are taken that everything that can be done is being done. Although into account by the PSNI. My hon. Friend the Minister the threat level remains at severe in Northern Ireland, of State will also consider them in the appeals process. real progress has been made. Excellent co-operation between the PSNI and its partners has put the terrorists Bob Stewart: May I remind the House that it is not under strain in recent months. There have been significant just about police officers and prison officers? Sometimes arrests, charges and convictions. In fact, so far this year people work more indirectly for the Prison Service or there have been a total of 143 arrests in Northern military; they might be a civilian driver, educate the Ireland, in addition to a number by An Garda Siochana children of people who work there or provide a service, in the Republic of Ireland. There have also been 52 charges such as cleaning an establishment. Those people are against those involved in national security attacks brought under threat, too, more often than we realise. since January 2012, including a number for serious terrorism-related offences. In addition, 25 caches of Mrs Villiers: I am confident that the PSNI will carefully weapons and improvised explosive devices have been consider the risks associated with anyone who applies seized. for permission to have a personal protection weapon, We remain committed to supporting the PSNI, its whether they carry out the roles described by my hon. partners and Justice Minister David Ford in countering Friend or are involved directly in the Prison Service or the threat and preventing the so-called dissidents from PSNI. causing death and destruction. I regularly meet the Tanaiste and the Irish Minister of Justice and discuss Patrick Mercer (Newark) (Con): I apologise to the these matters, and I am in no doubt that the Irish House for not being in the Chamber earlier. I do not Government and their Police Service remain fully committed need to talk further on the subject of weapons in this to tackling terrorism. The relationship between An company, but I believe that many of my former RUC Garda Siochana and the PSNI is better than ever and it colleagues feel that it is only a matter of time before the continues to save lives. PSNI is outgunned by one set of dissidents or another. As for the question asked by the hon. Member for Does the Secretary of State feel that she has access to North Down (Lady Hermon) on the disclosures about enough military resources that can be quickly deployed commissioning, she will be aware that the body that in the Province? carried out the decommissioning process was an 601 Security in Northern Ireland21 NOVEMBER 2012 Security in Northern Ireland 602 independent one. It chose not to publish the inventory June next year. The G8 conference will showcase of its work, so the Government do not actually have the Northern Ireland as an inspirational setting for world information to which she referred. leaders to discuss ambitious solutions to pressing global problems. As the First Minister said yesterday, that Mr Donaldson: I was involved in the negotiations would have been unthinkable only a few years ago. It leading to the Belfast agreement, and in the legislative demonstrates a modern, confident, forward-looking process here in Parliament. The Government have a Northern Ireland. statutory duty in relation to decommissioning. The This Government in no way underestimate the severity legislation made provision for the publication of an of the ongoing security threat. We remain vigilant. The inventory of the weapons that had been decommissioned House should be in no doubt that we will do everything at the end of the process, so I do not think the Secretary we can to protect the people of our country from of State can simply evade the issue by saying that the terrorism; and we will continue to support the PSNI, commission was independent. The commission had the Executive and the community in ensuring that the legislative force from this Parliament and surely, therefore, terrorists do not succeed in their aims. The people of there is an issue of accountability. Northern Ireland have achieved so much over the past 20 years and they are determined to continue the hard-won Mrs Villiers: I am happy to look at the matter that the progress that has been made. The overwhelming majority right hon. Gentleman raised and discuss it further with stand by the principle that Northern Ireland’s future him. will only ever be determined by democracy and by We are resolutely determined to bring an end to the consent, and not by violence. The Government will senseless violence that can still cause such pain and loss continue to be vigilant in combating the terrorist threat in Northern Ireland, but as I said earlier, security measures as an essential part of our wider efforts to deliver a alone will not bring an end to terrorist activity, although peaceful, stable and prosperous Northern Ireland, of of course they remain essential. We also need to build a which all its citizens can be proud and in which everyone more prosperous and less divided society if we are has a genuinely shared future. finally to force out those violent groupings completely. Northern Ireland still faces many serious economic and 1.54 pm social challenges after the troubles. We need to continue efforts to rebalance the economy and revive the private Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab): I congratulate the sector, and we must tackle sectarianism and the causes Democratic Unionist party on bringing these important of division in society, which can fuel the discontent on matters before the House today; I commend the right which terrorists will try to capitalise. hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) for the very measured way in which he introduced the debate, Addressing ongoing community segregation is not and I thank the Secretary of State for her remarks. just a social and political priority; it is a security priority as well. That is one of the reasons why, in his speech to Northern Ireland’s security and stability affect and the Assembly last year, the Prime Minister emphasised are the responsibility of every Member of Parliament, the crucial importance of building a genuinely shared from every party and every part of the United Kingdom. future for Northern Ireland. The UK Government remain Yesterday’s announcement that the G8 summit is coming committed to working closely with the Northern Ireland to Northern Ireland next year is very welcome news for Assembly and the Executive in their efforts to deliver everyone in Northern Ireland. Fermanagh, which I that shared society. know is close to the heart of the right hon. Member for Belfast North, is a beautiful county, which I have been However, we must not forget how far Northern Ireland privileged to visit. I was last in Enniskillen for the has come since the dark days of the troubles. As rightly church service at St Macartin’s cathedral on the occasion highlighted by the right hon. Member for Belfast North, of Her Majesty the Queen’s visit to Northern Ireland to we have unprecedented political stability. For the most mark the diamond jubilee. But of course we also remember part, people go about their daily lives in a way that the horrific Remembrance Sunday killings of 25 years would have been unthinkable in the past; and in so ago. I have also spent time in Fermanagh visiting community many ways Northern Ireland is now projecting itself on groups and businesses, including the Fermanagh Trust the world stage for the right reasons. which does such good work to promote shared education This year we have seen Northern Ireland host the in the county. Irish golf open, the Olympic torch relay, the Titanic The announcement that this hugely significant event, centenary events and, of course, the fantastically successful attended by eight world leaders, will be held in Northern visit by Her Majesty the Queen. Next year will see the Ireland is proof indeed that things have changed world police and fire games bring more than 20,000 considerably for the better. Only a short number of competitors and spectators to Northern Ireland. Derry- years ago, it would have been unthinkable that an Londonderry will be the UK city of culture. It will host occasion of this significance, with all its security implications, the Fleadh which is being held in Northern Ireland for could be held in Northern Ireland. Indeed the Prime the first time. Also, as we have heard, it is now officially, Minister, at Prime Minister’s questions today, made according to “Lonely Planet”, the fourth best city in the that very point. Given that Derry-Londonderry is also world to visit. to be the city of culture next year, I firmly believe, as the As announced yesterday by the Prime Minister, Secretary of State and the right hon. Gentleman said, the Government are recognising once again the that 2013 can be a great year of tourism, investment transformation that has taken place in Northern and togetherness for a vibrant and confident Northern Ireland by bringing the leaders of eight of the world’s Ireland taking its place on the world stage. A huge largest economies to County Fermanagh. County amount of progress has thus been made, as we and the Fermanagh will genuinely be the centre of the world in Secretary of State recognise. 603 Security in Northern Ireland21 NOVEMBER 2012 Security in Northern Ireland 604

[Vernon Coaker] act to deal with it. That is why I so warmly welcome the topic the right hon. Member for Belfast North has However, as the motion rightly identifies, there are brought to the House for debate today. still those who wish to destroy the peace and progress I believe, as do the Secretary of State and all Members made and take us back to the dark days of conflict. The of this House, that the PSNI is to be congratulated on murder of Prison Officer David Black just a few weeks its diligence and success in preventing attacks and catching ago is a stark reminder of the need for us to be vigilant the perpetrators. The Army technical officers in the and realistic about the threat from terrorism. As I said bomb disposal units also deserve huge credit for their in the House of Commons in the days afterwards, it was bravery and tenacity in dealing with suspect devices. the cold-blooded, evil murder of an ordinary, decent Prosecutions relating to terrorist activity have continued, man, going about his ordinary, decent business. but the risk to police officers, prison officers, soldiers I, and some Members who are present in the Chamber and the entire community remains very real. this afternoon, stood with many other ordinary, decent Responding to remarks I made in the House earlier people in Cookstown for David Black’s funeral—the this month, the Secretary of State said: Secretary of State was there as well—and was overwhelmed by the courage and determination of his family, and by “the PSNI is completely focused on maintaining the safety of prison officers, as it is on maintaining the safety of police officers, what his very proud children said at his funeral. They who are sadly also targeted by dissident terrorists. I am sure that showed that those who murdered a husband, a father every lesson will be learned, and that the PSNI and the Prison and a friend did not succeed and will not succeed. It was Service will look with care at whether any changes need to be good to hear from the Secretary of State this afternoon made as a result of yesterday’s tragedy.”—[Official Report, 2 November that there have been further arrests by the PSNI, and 2012; Vol. 552, c. 513.] that the police have taken other action, including searching properties. That is very welcome news to all of us, I Lady Hermon: I am following closely the comments think, as we would all wish to see the perpetrators being made by the shadow Secretary of State. Will he brought to justice as soon as possible. take a moment to support publicly the calls we have We must not, however, think that sentiments alone heard from this Bench this afternoon for the publication will ensure that no other family is bereaved and no by the Government of the inventories of weapons already other home, as the hon. Member for Upper Bann decommissioned by republicans and by loyalists, as (David Simpson) rightly said that day, has an empty agreed under the Belfast agreement? To hide behind the chair and a loved one gone. There can be no complacency independence of the Independent International about the threat from the small number of people Commission on Decommissioning simply will not do. engaged in violence, and there must be total support— Will the hon. Gentleman please publicly endorse those financial and political—from both sides of the House calls for publication? to help the security forces in Northern Ireland to keep the people safe. Will the Minister in his closing remarks Vernon Coaker: Because of the way the hon. Lady again assure the House that those protecting the public, has pursued the matter and raised it in this debate, she particularly the PSNI, the Army technical officers and has already got a commitment from the Secretary of the security services, have all the resources needed to State to consider her request and to see whether anything tackle terrorism and the threat to national security? more needs to be done. The hon. Lady had mentioned Unfortunately, David Black’s murder was not an the publication of inventories several times this afternoon isolated incident, as the Secretary of State said. It was and the Secretary of State has—rightly, I believe—given part of a pattern of dissident republican terrorist activity a commitment to see whether anything further can be across Northern Ireland, targeted primarily at the security done to ensure that the weapons and other materiél that forces. A gun attack on police took place in west Belfast are said to have been destroyed actually have been. I am at the end of July; two pipe bombs and a booby-trap sure the House welcomes the Secretary of State’s device were left at the offices of Derry city council in commitment. September; mortar bombs were found in north Belfast May I ask the Minister of State, who is to reply to the in October; then, just last week, what is believed to be debate, what his assessment is of the lessons that have an under-car bomb was found in Belfast, having fallen been learnt and whether any changes are needed to off the vehicle of the intended target. Loyalist paramilitaries ensure the highest levels of personal security for police are also engaged in creating discord within and between officers, civilian police staff and Prison Service personnel? communities: their involvement in some of the public The Police Federation for Northern Ireland says that disorder seen in Belfast this summer and continuing there have been 73 gun or bomb attacks since the start sectarian attacks and criminal behaviour must also be of this year—a startling and worrying figure—and last condemned and challenged robustly. week its chairman, Terry Spence, said that 1,000 more In both working-class Unionist and working-class officers were needed to combat what he described as a nationalist areas, joblessness among young people is a growing threat and to stop us “sleepwalking into disaster”. real concern, and the Secretary of State mentioned this. Following the previous Administration’s commitment, Not only does it damage our young people by denying in 2010 this Government gave the police an extra £200 them work, opportunity and aspiration, but it makes million, to be spread over the following four years, them vulnerable to exploitation and indeed recruitment specifically to combat terrorism; and the Executive have by paramilitaries. We should never underestimate the provided £45 million for the same purpose. I know that, impact on the security situation of unemployment and like me, the Minister of State has regular discussions social and economic deprivation. Only rarely does any with the Justice Minister in Northern Ireland and the of this make the news here in London, but it is happening Chief Constable. What representations has he received and we in Westminster have a duty to take note and to regarding the extension of that funding beyond 2014? 605 Security in Northern Ireland21 NOVEMBER 2012 Security in Northern Ireland 606

What is his assessment of the call for additional police police officer; the IRA attempted to assassinate him officers to meet the national security threat outlined by and once actually came to his house. Fortuitously, the PFNI chairman? neither the children—my cousins—nor my uncle and I know that there is ever-closer co-operation between aunt were harmed, but it was an absolutely desperate the Irish Government and the UK Government, and situation. I remember so well what it was like all those between the Garda Siochana and the PSNI. The support years ago. Things have moved on apace, almost of the Irish authorities in tackling terrorism is hugely miraculously. I still visit my relatives in Northern Ireland important, and I commend in particular the Tanaiste, and it is a very different place from what it was many the Irish Justice Minister and the Garda commissioner years ago. for their hard work and determination. We all want that The security issue, however, is clearly still relevant, as to continue. the crime against Mr Black only a few weeks ago demonstrates. Periodically, dissident groups materialise Mr Laurence Robertson: On the day of the terrible suddenly and cause mayhem by harming, frightening murder of Mr Black, I was in Dublin and met the and intimidating people, and, to be frank, some of the Garda commissioner, who reaffirmed his commitment loyalist dissident groups almost have a racketeering to working with the PSNI to stamp out such action. contract over parts of the north. Things are not yet There was an air of despondency around everyone I quite where we want them to be, but I want to affirm met in Dublin that tragic day. They really do stand with and confirm just how far they have come. us in fighting against such incidents. I remember being in Belfast when the troubles started. Vernon Coaker: The remarks of the Chair of the I was only 12 and, as hon. Members will be able to Northern Ireland Affairs Committee are welcome and imagine, as a young child I thought it was very exciting. will be heard clearly both here and in Dublin. I am sure There were helicopters everywhere, guns going off and that everyone across the whole Republic of Ireland, the lots of noise, but it did not take me long to realise just whole of Northern Ireland and, let us be clear, the whole what a dreadfully black period the whole country was United Kingdom, was absolutely horrified by the murder going to go through. The situation now compared with and supports all the efforts of the Government, the then is almost miraculous. It is tremendous that it has parties in Northern Ireland and the police and security advanced to the extent that, today, all sides in Northern services in the Republic and Northern Ireland to bring Ireland, where a difficult sectarian divide involved a lot to justice those who committed that terrible crime. of death and pain, are sought out by other countries In my first exchange across the Dispatch Box with the around the world to help them get through similarly Secretary of State, during Northern Ireland questions difficult situations. That is a tribute to all the people of on 24 October, I said that I wanted the north and to the UK Government for the progress that we have made. “to work with her constructively and in a bipartisan way, particularly on issues relating to security.” It is striking that a number of Northern Ireland I asked her to Members have reminded us of the ongoing threat, to “assure the House and the people of Northern Ireland that there the extent that people have had to move house. I urge will be no downgrading of the Government’s commitment to the Government to keep focused on two things, along combat terrorism anywhere in the United Kingdom”.—[Official with everything else. First, there must never be any cuts Report, 24 October 2012; Vol. 551, c. 907.] in the budget, so that ample money is available to The Secretary of State has reaffirmed that commitment ensure that people who work in the public security and needs to do so constantly, because, as the right hon. services—whether they work in prisons, the police or Member for Belfast North said, any suggestion of a similar—are protected in their own homes in the north. downgrading must be combated. I reaffirm my commitment Secondly, and equally—this strong point has already to maintaining a bipartisan approach, to working with been made—if they are forced out of their own homes, the Government on security matters, and to supporting which is dreadful, they should not suffer financially, the Northern Ireland Executive, the Justice Minister because that seems completely against the whole concept and the PSNI. This afternoon’s debate gives us the of natural justice. As a spokesperson for my party opportunity, here in Westminster, to say that tackling within the coalition, I add my wholehearted support to terrorism, wherever and whenever it occurs, should what has already been said on that issue. It is important remain the responsibility and priority of us all. that the Government keep focused. The security angle is complicated and I know that the 2.8 pm Government are working very closely with the devolved Government in Northern Ireland. This issue clearly is Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): I pay tribute to the not going to go away any time soon, but I remind hon. Democratic Unionist party and the right hon. Member Members—not that I have to remind Northern Ireland for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) for securing this Opposition Members—that we are in such a different place compared day debate. I know that many colleagues in parties on with 20 years ago. If we ever allow the dissident groups, the other side of the Chamber have far more expertise of whatever stripe, to force us into a defensive posture, and experience than I have and that they want to speak, that tiny percentage of people will have won. I do not so I will be brief. think that they are worth it—they are not worth a hill of I join the Secretary of State and the others who beans. We need to deal with them firmly, ensure that the have spoken so far in paying tribute to Mr David security capacity is there, and keep doing what I know Black. His murder was a heinous crime, which calls the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland want, to mind the dreadful situation many years ago, of which is to keep going forward towards a very secure which I have some experience. One of my uncles was a future. 607 Security in Northern Ireland21 NOVEMBER 2012 Security in Northern Ireland 608

2.14 pm The Secretary of State has alluded to the world police and fire games, which will also be held in Northern Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): I Ireland next year. The potential significant benefits for rise in support of my honourable colleagues and this tourism and inward investment as the result of many important motion. I want to tread the same fine line as thousands of people—both participants and spectators— previous contributors and outline the significant and coming to Northern Ireland and enjoying their stay beneficial progress that has been made in Northern should not be underestimated. Again, dissidents will Ireland in recent years, while balancing it with the need want to target that event. We cannot rest on our laurels not to become complacent. Unfortunately, we have seen and just think that the police will deal with any problems. in recent days and weeks the ramifications of what Unfortunately, we must prepare for the possibility that happens whenever dissident terrorists are able to carry dissidents may want to disrupt these events. out their dastardly objectives. I have alluded to Londonderry being the first ever The progress that has been made has been alluded to UK city of culture. There will be a whole sequence of during Prime Minister’s questions today and in other events, starting in six weeks’ time and running throughout locations recently. It is remarkable—there is absolutely next year. Again, dissidents will see the opportunity to no question about that. In 2012, there are many villages target those events. They will pick and choose the and towns in Northern Ireland where there is no discernible events that they want to disrupt. Thankfully, their attempts evidence of violence, dissention or trouble at all—none in recent months have failed, but trying and failing in whatsoever. Unfortunately, however, as has been said, the past has not deterred them from repetition. They the capacity of dissident terrorists—who now come will undoubtedly attempt to cause disruption again. under the umbrella of the IRA—to carry out their Over the next 12 to 18 months, Northern Ireland activities cannot and must not be underestimated. The could see as much transformation again as it has seen fact that those terrorists have carried out six or seven over the past 20 years, provided that we take the necessary gun or bomb attacks each and every month of this year action to ensure that those who are intent on disrupting is evidence of their capacity. these events are not allowed to do so, and provided that The Chief Constable has said that the terrorists do the community rallies behind all the events, gives them not have the capacity for a sustained campaign. They total support and ensures that there is no hiding place are not in the same category as the Provisional IRA and for anyone who tries to disrupt them or attack the it appears at present that they are not even intent on a participants. Last year, when the Olympic torch made sustained level of bombing and shooting on every day its way across the United Kingdom, the only location of every week of every month, for a number of reasons. where it suffered a minor re-routeing was Londonderry. They do not have the manpower—or the woman-power That was at the hands of several dozen dissident political either—or the expertise, although they are gaining in protesters. There was no violence, but there were negative that regard. What they are doing, however—unfortunately, headlines because they targeted an event that everyone Mr David Black and his family were at the receiving end else thought was tremendous and that thousands of of their capacity—is allowing a week, a fortnight or a people were there to support. We must confront that month to go by and then hitting a target that they know kind of attitude over the next 14 months. will get a headline and generate adverse publicity. For The shadow Secretary of State made an important example, they are aware that Londonderry will be the point about unemployment, particularly among young first ever UK city of culture next year, which is why they people. Just like the Provisional IRA before them, the targeted the cultural offices in the city of Londonderry. dissident elements are undoubtedly targeting young They knew that that would get a headline of some people who are unemployed and saying to them, “The magnitude. peace process has brought you nothing. It has not In treading the fine line between the significant progress benefited you with employment, in getting you out of that has been made, which we must not underestimate, the ghetto or in improving your lifestyle or standard of and the need to ensure that vigilance remains the living. Therefore, join us in trying to finish the job that watchword, I want to draw attention to the benefit that the provos started but could not finish.” That is the we will gain, I hope, over the next 12 months and, at the message that the dissidents sell, in different ways, to same time, ensure that the Secretary of State, the young people who are unemployed and who, in many Government and the security forces at home remain cases, are following generations of unemployment. vigilant to ensure that people are able to enjoy the many I therefore encourage other Members to follow the occasions that will come our way over the next 12 months. avenue that I will be pursuing next week with Invest Let us consider those occasions for a moment. The Northern Ireland, the Department for Employment G8 has been announced and we congratulate the Prime and Learning in Northern Ireland, the Prince’s Trust Minister on, and thank him for, his work in delivering and others. We are targeting unemployed young people it. There will be an unprecedented arrival of people in, and giving them the information on the training, skills and attention on, Northern Ireland for all the good and adaptability that they need to get into employment, reasons. People will come to Fermanagh and there will so that they do not become fodder for the dissident be intense publicity not just for the three days that they elements that are, unfortunately, targeting our young are there, but for the weeks that lead up to it and, I people. hope, subsequent to their departure. That has to be and I want to close with the issue of personal protection must be a force for good, and yet there is the potential—just weapons and the home protection scheme, which has as dissidents have targeted other occasions that were a been alluded to by a number of Members. David Black force for good—for the dissidents’ force for evil. They was not under any specific individual threat on his life. will undoubtedly be looking at ways to undermine that He died as a result of the dissident terrorists targeting significantly beneficial event for Northern Ireland, so him none the less. The day, the week and the month we must be aware of their capacity to do so. before that fateful day when he was making his journey 609 Security in Northern Ireland21 NOVEMBER 2012 Security in Northern Ireland 610 along the motorway, he did not believe that he was to do a day’s work and who are looking over their under threat any more than many of his colleagues. I shoulder. All of us on these Benches live with that every say that not to diminish the threat that he thought he day. People will say that we are well paid for it, and was under, but to point out that he was told that he was perhaps we are. However, there are people out there under no specific individual threat. who get up in the morning, leave their families and go That means that there are hundreds of serving and out to check their vehicles. The word for the problem is former members of the police, the prison service, the complacency. We all get lax when nothing has happened Ulster Defence Regiment and the Royal Irish Regiment for a while, and we do not check under our vehicles or who, because of where they live and because of their look over our shoulders as we should. That happens, job, feel themselves to be under a certain kind of threat. but some day it will be too late—there will be a device I encourage the Northern Ireland Office, the Secretary and it will all be over. of State and others to do whatever they can to ensure that those personnel have adequate protection, in the Jim Shannon: My hon. Friend will be aware of the form of both personal protection weapons and the targeting of security force personnel, whether in the police, home protection scheme, so that they and their families Army or Prison Service. Is he also aware of the have some form of security. They need to know that the announcement that the name and address of every Government and the rest of us understand the threat prison officer was known to dissident republicans, and that they are under and will do what we can to help does he feel that security for everyone who serves in them in their hour of need. uniform needs to be upgraded and stepped up? David Simpson: Yes, and over the years we have been 2.25 pm made aware of security leaks, and documents relating David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): It is good to to members of the security forces have been found in follow my hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry the possession of certain people. People have been (Mr Campbell). arrested because material has been found that could be of advantage to terrorist organisations. We must be The recent murder of prison officer David Black vigilant and ensure consistent upgrading and assessment presents us with a stark warning that we cannot ignore. of all those issues, and I ask the Secretary of State to It shows that although society in Northern Ireland is keep that in mind. I do not totally blame the Northern moving forward, peace and stability are fragile commodities Ireland Office for the situation; the PSNI of course has that need to be protected from dangerous people who responsibility for making an assessment. People should go about with murder in their hearts. We cannot take not just be dealt with as being under moderate threat, our security for granted in any corner of this United when all of a sudden their lives are taken. As has been Kingdom; nor can we assume that the threat of republican said, David Black was driving down the motorway terrorism has passed completely into the history books. outside Lurgan in my constituency. He was on his way Personal protection weapons and the assessment of to help his country by serving in the Prison Service, and risk have been raised a number of times today. I believe to earn a living for his wife and family. He did not that there is an issue with how assessments are made return. We must address urgently the issue of how that needs to be addressed by the security forces or people’s protection is assessed. through the Northern Ireland Office. I would like the On a more positive note, no one in this House, or Secretary of State to take that on board. anywhere in Northern Ireland, would deny that My hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry Northern Ireland has made remarkable progress in referred to David Black. David Black was murdered in recent times. This has been a fantastic year for our my constituency. I pay tribute to his family and to his Province, and the announcement yesterday that Ulster wife for her courageous statement about no retaliation. will host the G8 summit next year was the crowning However, as my hon. Friend the Member for East glory in an incredible period of positive headlines. I Antrim (Sammy Wilson) said, they also said that they thank the Secretary of State for attending my wanted the perpetrators to be brought to justice to pay constituency yesterday—of course, she brought the for their crime. As I said earlier, while we are genuine in Prime Minster with her—and it was good of her to be our tributes to him and his family, there is an empty there to make an announcement about the G8. I am chair that will never be filled, so we must get to grips sure she will agree that the warm reception that both with the matter. she and the Prime Minister received from the I believe that a different line must be taken in the NACCO work force in the Craigavon area was assessments on serving officers in the Prison Service tremendous. It was a positive day for my constituency, and the other security forces, and on those who have for Northern Ireland and for NACCO, which had its served the community and put on the uniform of the tweets all ready. They were not allowed to go because of Crown forces for a long time. Time and again, prison security issues, but I assure the Secretary of State that officers and people from the security forces come to my the moment the Prime Minister left, wires were hot office. The letters that they receive state continually: across the whole world to promote that company and “Our assessment on you is moderate.” What does that the Craigavon area. mean? There was no specific intelligence on David This year has been an excellent show case for all Black. There was no specific intelligence on Constable that is good about Northern Ireland. No longer is our Stephen Carroll, who was also murdered in my constituency. part of the United Kingdom referred to in the same But their lives were taken. breath as Palestine or other trouble spots in the We need to address this issue. The Government need world, and the Province is receiving global recognition to realise that we are dealing with human lives. We are for the right reasons. That success has been built on dealing with people who have to go out in the morning the sure foundation of support for the rule of law 611 Security in Northern Ireland21 NOVEMBER 2012 Security in Northern Ireland 612

[David Simpson] repetition of the weather forecast or the market report. Those terrible times are gone, except for a tiny, crazed among all those who carry the responsibility of political element that seeks to take us backwards. That element leadership. People who once swore that they would does exist, and we learn from the past that if it is not never support the police or the rule of law, now do so. confronted, it will persist. It is a sign of how far forward we have moved as a society that the community, right Mr Dodds: My hon. Friend makes an important across the traditional divides, was genuinely convulsed point about support for policing. Does he share my in shock by the recent murder of David Black. People concern, and that of many others, about the recent who lived through the dark days do not want to go back developments following an arrest made under proper to them, and their children do not want to endure what policing processes, when Sinn Fein organised a protest their parents had to endure. We must not let our people outside police headquarters and accused the PSNI of down through a weak response to that grave threat. We “political policing”? Does my hon. Friend believe, as I must have peace, but it can only be guaranteed through do, that that retrograde and dangerous step plays into strength. the hands of dissidents? Peace will be preserved in our country only if those who threaten its continuation are confronted and harried David Simpson: I thank my right hon. Friend for that at every opportunity by the legitimate forces of law and intervention; he is absolutely correct. Such events send order. My point again to the Secretary of State is that out the wrong message and seem to give support to we need to provide any resources that are needed. We dissident republicans which, as was mentioned earlier, need to take those people on, defeat them and remove encourages young people to believe that the war is not them from our society. We need to remove their political really over. In the words of one famous republican, “We ideology—or whatever ideology—to try to bring them haven’t gone away you know.” We must remember that. to their knees. Republicans tried for many years in Northern Ireland, but they found that the people of Dr McCrea: Does my hon. Friend acknowledge that Ulster are very resilient, despite all that was thrown at a dangerous precedent has been set by members of Sinn them over the years. The people of Northern Ireland Fein and the SDLP on Dungannon and South Tyrone did not give in to the Provisional IRA, and I can assure council? A person has gone through the due process of the House that they will not give in to any so-called the law as a result of an action to murder a member of dissident republicans. They will continue to fight and the DUP—Councillor Sammy Brush—yet now we find continue to remain members of this United Kingdom that their release is being demanded. no matter what is thrown at them. The latest incarnation of republican terrorism considers David Simpson: My hon. Friend makes a valid point. itself to be the keeper of an old republican flame—the In fact, he must have seen my speech—[Interruption.] armed struggle. Those people believe that, if they can He probably thought he wrote it for me. He is right to keep alive the twisted tradition of anti-democratic violence, say that the call from the SDLP is despicable, and I will it will eventually burn as strongly as it did in the past. soon refer to that case in my speech. The psychopathic delusion required to sustain such a A generation of young people are emerging in Northern nightmare vision ignores the pain and suffering that Ireland for whom the worst days of the troubles are would be inflicted on the wider community were it ever something they hear their parents talk about at the to become a reality. It can never be allowed to become a fireside. Mercifully, these young people have no real reality. Too many people have suffered as a consequence first-hand experience of such things themselves. I welcome of politically motivated violence. It is essential that the that changed dispensation and the fact that our society Government do all in their power to defeat those who has become less accustomed to violence and less accepting would seek to reignite the flames of division and bloodshed. of it than during the dark days. At stake, however, is the Every tool at our disposal should be deployed. maintenance of peace and prosperity for all of our The news that the disparate and scattered remnants people. of physical-force republicanism have joined together I pay tribute to Kate Carroll, the wife of Constable under a single banner—one local tabloid referred to it Stephen Carroll who was murdered in my constituency. yesterday as a coalition, but I will not go into that—shows She is a very brave lady and I understand that in why the current policy of allowing dissidents to segregate January next year she will launch in Stormont buildings in prisons must be ended. It is beyond dispute that the an initiative for disfranchised young people. My hon. warnings given in 2003 on where that policy would Friend the Member for East Londonderry referred to ultimately lead have been fulfilled. The policy should be young people who are unemployed and find themselves reversed, and I hope the Secretary of State joins us in in difficult circumstances, and Kate Carroll is bringing calling for that. forward an initiative that will help such people to find It is more important now than ever that all democratic work, get involved in youth projects, and remove them parties in Northern Ireland stand together to oppose from the scene and criminal activity, and from the the dissident agenda. That is why I have found some of leeches that try to tap into their lives and take them the actions of the SDLP very disappointing. I have a lot away. I pay tribute to Kate Carroll; she is a brave lady of respect for many SDLP members, but recent comments who has been outspoken on many issues and come a have been disappointing. It sends out a mixed and long way since the death of her husband. She should be confused message if the leader of the SDLP and his congratulated on that. party colleagues campaign for the release of Marian There was a time in Northern Ireland when a person’s Price and Gerry McGeough. McGeough was convicted losing their life as a consequence of terrorism was by a court of law for the attempted murder of my party sometimes read out on news broadcasts with the tiresome colleague, Councillor Sammy Brush. Had Sammy Brush 613 Security in Northern Ireland21 NOVEMBER 2012 Security in Northern Ireland 614 not been in possession of a personal weapon, he would Ireland further—economically, politically and in all have been dead today. He was able to return fire, but he other ways. That has not happened. The family have would have been dead had the personal protection acted with dignity, and the community and security weapon not been issued to him. forces have been responsive, which is important. For It was appalling to hear the leader of the SDLP claim Northern Ireland to succeed, and for us to move in the that McGeough has been victimised. It was equally direction we want—to a normal and prosperous society appalling when his party backed a call for McGeough that gives hope to young people who are looking for to be released. Let us imagine the scene at Dungannon jobs, and families who want to bring up their children in and South Tyrone borough council on that night: Councillor a stable environment—we cannot allow the cancer of Brush was sitting in his place in the council chamber terrorism once again to push Northern Ireland into the while one nationalist speaker after another rose to headlines for all the wrong reasons. demand the release of the man who had tried to murder This year, we have had more tourists than ever, and him. Such behaviour is an affront to any innocent we have succeeded even in the middle of a recession in victim of terrorism. McGeough should not be released attracting more foreign direct investment to our economy until he has served his full sentence. That is the end of than any other region bar the south-east of England. the story. Despite that and all the other changes, some people Marian Price had her licence revoked by the previous would love to wallow and say, “Things are just as bad as Secretary of State for encouraging support for the very what they ever were.” I do not want this debate to give same terrorists who would seek to plunge Northern credence to such a view of life: that is not where Ireland back into the violence and bloodshed of the Northern Ireland is today. We have already referred to past. At this juncture, there can be no question of the events that have happened this year and the events setting her free. I hope the Secretary of State reiterates we are looking forward to next year. Even in Londonderry, the Government’s support for the decision taken by her with its republican and nationalist majority on the predecessor in that regard. council, they are going to celebrate the UK city of I hope the Secretary of State provides an assurance culture next year. That is how Northern Ireland has that any PSNI request for additional resources to tackle changed. We may even have the Deputy First Minister the threat posed by dissident republicans will be looked going to the Brit awards— on favourably by the Government. When we are talking Mr Gregory Campbell: The Brits out awards! [Laughter.] about protecting the safety and security of British citizens, there can be no question of penny pinching. Prison Sammy Wilson: I have not heard that phrase for a officers, who are currently the focus of attention, need while. protection. Whatever package is required—whether PPWs As hon. Members have pointed out, despite those or home protection—needs to be provided. changes it is important that we do not get complacent Hon. Members on both sides of the House will and that we recognise that dangers still lurk that affect recognise that Ulster has lost too many young men and people’s daily lives in Northern Ireland. We have to deal women, and men and women who have served their with those dangers, and I accept that we as the public country for many years. We do not want to see any representatives in Northern Ireland have a responsibility more. to deal with them ourselves. I am glad that we are moving away from the days when we went and asked Several hon. Members rose— everyone else to help us with our problems and relied on them to sort out our problems for us. We have a devolved Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I Administration, which includes parties across the board, should inform Members who wish to take part in the although it is a difficult arrangement to make work, debate how it will run for the rest of the afternoon. Five especially when dealing with people as financially Members wish to participate, and we are due to start irresponsible as Sinn Fein and, marginally behind them, the wind-ups at around 4 o’clock. I am not putting a the SDLP. People talk of their support for the police, time limit on speeches now, but asking each of you to but if the police start to deal with some of the colleagues consider the clock to ensure that the time is allocated of those who were involved in terrorism, that support fairly between you. Otherwise, I will do it for you. suddenly becomes qualified. It is disgraceful—

2.47 pm Naomi Long: Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern that Ministers from his own party advocate Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): I suppose there civil disobedience in the face of violence in the streets of was a certain nervousness about this debate. It has been our cities? That is also irresponsible and should be a measured debate, but as many hon. Members have condemned and avoided. said, we do not wish to paint a picture of Northern Ireland as being back in the 1970s and 1980s. Considerable Sammy Wilson: In any democratic society, there is progress has been made. I was glad that, when my right always the opportunity for people to engage in peaceful hon. Friend the Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) protest, if that is what the hon. Lady means. There is a introduced the debate, he gave a balanced picture of a huge difference between those who say that members of Northern Ireland that has moved on considerably. The the public can engage in peaceful protest and those who Secretary of State and the shadow Secretary of State, say that it is political policing for the police to go and all hon. Members who have spoken, have echoed through due process to arrest people for serious crimes— that. including murder. I notice that the SDLP Members The one thing that would give great consolation to have been quiet on this point. It is one thing for someone those who murdered Prison Officer Black would be that on Dungannon council in the back of beyond to call for their vile act is used to try to destabilise Northern the release of someone who was guilty of trying to 615 Security in Northern Ireland21 NOVEMBER 2012 Security in Northern Ireland 616

[Sammy Wilson] Government and the Treasury for accepting that argument, and that is why the Chief Constable has been able to murder a council colleague: it is another to stand up in plan ahead. the House of Commons and defend that. I note that Additional resources may be required in the future. If SDLP Members have not tried to do that, because there so, it will be to deal with a national security situation, is a bit more public scrutiny here. and not just to have more community policemen on the It is important that we in Northern Ireland take ground in Northern Ireland. I understand why Members responsibility not only for seeking to try to heal the on both sides of the House, when they see cuts in their divisions of the past, but for giving support to those police service, ask why Northern Ireland is treated who have to deal with the reality of the lingering differently from other parts of the United Kingdom terrorism that we still experience. I do not buy the when it comes to constraints on police budgets. But this idea—to which the shadow Secretary of State referred—that issue does not only apply to Northern Ireland. If the people get involved in terrorism because they are situation gets out of hand, it will have national security economically deprived. We do an injustice to people implications. Republicans would far rather do something who have lived their lives in difficult economic conditions on the UK mainland than Northern Ireland—that would and never become involved in crime if we make that be much more newsworthy. They get the base, they get excuse. We have a responsibility to provide hope in our the wherewithal, they get the ability and they get the society, so that people can have a stake in it, feel that mechanisms for doing it, and we can be sure that this is there is something better for them and that it is a place where the targets will be. where they want to belong. The Executive is seeking to If the Chief Constable makes the assessment that do that and to direct resources towards the young and additional resources are needed, I hope there will be a unemployed, and people who have lost their jobs. We positive response. That is not to say that we in the are looking at innovative ways to try to give that economic Northern Ireland Executive must not do anything. Indeed, hope to people. we have provided for greater flexibility in the security There is a need for security policies that will be budget than for any other budget. In any other Department, effective, and responsibility for those may, at some where money is not, or cannot, be spent in the way it stage, lie with the Government here in Westminster. If was voted on, it has to be returned to the centre and we are going to deal with terrorism, we must have looked at again. The security budget has been ring-fenced intelligence. There are various ways of gathering so that the Chief Constable has much greater flexibility. intelligence—electronic surveillance and so on—but human This is not an issue of holding out our hands and intelligence sources are also important. The security looking for more money; this is about what we can do services are responsible for gathering that intelligence in for ourselves first of all. However, if the situation Northern Ireland. I know that they are hampered in deteriorates—I hope that it does not, and that there is doing so, and I remember my time in the police force never a need to call on the House and the Government and some of the unrealistic demands that were made, for more resources for policing in Northern Ireland; I, especially by some of the SDLP representatives—Sinn and the citizens of Northern Ireland, want to see policing Fein was not on the Police Board then. People almost return to normality—then that is one thing that could had to be Sunday school teachers to become informants be done. for the police because there were so many restrictions. If I appreciate the response—the support and people were involved in this, that or the other, they recognition—from all parts of the House to the situation could not be recruited as intelligence sources. We would in Northern Ireland. For our part, we raised this issue have been left with people who would not have had any because it is important to the people who live in Northern idea about what was going on in the criminal underworld Ireland for it to be highlighted. We have done so in a of terrorism if we had stuck by those restrictions. The measured way; not in an alarmist way, but in a way that, important question is what changes we need to make to as public representatives in Northern Ireland, we have a get the intelligence required to ensure that those who duty to do. want to engage in such criminal behaviour are quickly identified. 3.1 pm There is also a resource aspect to this. I know that the Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): I welcome Police Federation has talked about 1,000 extra police the motion despite the barbed and direct attacks on me, officers. I do not know whether we need 1,000 extra my leader and colleague, my hon. Friend the Member police officers or not, but I do know that if we are to for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell), and my hon. Friend target terrorists—including intensive surveillance on the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan). It was absolutely them—it will require additional resources. I give credit scandalous, because our record on violence and our to the Government because when policing and justice record against terrorism, all down the years, has been was devolved, we were given additional resources for straight and to the point: we reject it all. policing of £50 million on a yearly basis, depending It is of paramount importance at this time, when on the assessment of the security situation. The there is undoubtedly a growing threat from dissident Chief Constable and the Northern Ireland Executive republicans, that we show solidarity with those who do made the case that they had to plan ahead and could most to make our communities safe. That includes, not be left to wonder whether they would get the obviously, the PSNI and the Prison Service. The murder £50 million every year—whether the security situation of Prison Officer David Black was an abhorrent crime would be assessed as okay or as having deteriorated. against a man who was doing an important and difficult They asked for the money to be guaranteed for a job on behalf of us all. It was also a vicious crime four-year period, so that planning could take place to against the family and friends of Mr Black. Our thoughts make best use of the resources. I pay tribute to the and prayers continue to be with them. 617 Security in Northern Ireland21 NOVEMBER 2012 Security in Northern Ireland 618

If I am to be frank, apart from relative stability, there I understand that the DUP leader only recently complained are not that many successes that our somewhat to the Irish Government that funding going into worthwhile dysfunctional devolved Government in Northern Ireland north/south infrastructure projects should instead go to can claim. Hopefully, that will change. None the less, community projects for loyalists, because loyalist the outstanding achievement of this spell of devolution paramilitaries were getting restless and were increasingly is that we have all taken a united stand against terror of a disposition to strike out. That is not good enough. from whatever source. For some of us, that is nothing Our united stand against terror must include all of new. My own party has always stood against politically those who espouse terror and violence, not only the motivated violence whatever the goal, whatever the republican dissidents in this motion but the intimidatory frustration at the lack of movement, or whatever the thugs who continue to prey on working class communities anger about the lack of justice. For us, the recent on all sides. I would hope that the DUP pay heed to violence is little different, except thankfully in its magnitude, that. from the violence we all endured in past decades. It was wrong then and it is wrong now. Mr Dodds: The hon. Lady made a statement in relation to my party leader, the First Minister of Northern David Simpson: In the hon. Lady’s opening comments, Ireland. I would just be grateful if she could provide the she said that her party had stood against terrorism. House with any evidence that she may have for that That is fine, but will she condemn her leader for calling ridiculous statement. for the release of former terrorists? Ms Ritchie: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his Ms Ritchie: We were very concerned that the prisons intervention. I think there is evidence to that effect and issue does not feed the dissidents, as happened with the he should discuss it directly with his colleagues who provisional movement in the past. serve in the Northern Ireland Executive. [Interruption.] If I may continue: my party has stood against violence. Yes, there is evidence to that effect. Violence was wrong back in the ’70s, ’80s and ’90s and We must not allow the tragic murder of Mr David it is wrong now—simple, clear. Others have come a Black to curtail our appetite for reform in the north. longer way—whether those who have renounced the Our hard-working Justice Minister has plans to reform armed struggle and have followed the electoral road to the Prison Service, just as we have reformed policing, places such as this, or those, including the Democratic and we must let him get on with it. Unionist party who moved this motion, who fanned the If there is one thing politicians can do to honour the flames of division for many years, including sporadic memory of David Black and everyone else killed over flirtations with paramilitarism and lawlessness. We are the last several years—the police officers and other now all in the same place. We stand united against members of the security forces tragically murdered terror and we will not be moved. It is vital that we continue, three or four years ago, and the other brave citizens cut whatever else may divide us, that united stand against down while providing essential public services—it is to terror. There must be no slippage on anyone’s part. strengthen and deepen our big achievement in devolution, I recognise the distance travelled by others and which is our united stand against terror. That is what we acknowledge that we are united against terror. That should all subscribe to and what we in the SDLP—my unity is genuine and, I believe, resilient. However, I party leader, my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast must also caution the DUP and Sinn Fein on how we South, my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle and maintain our united stand and how we deepen our I—have done continually. commitment. To Sinn Fein I say the following: they perhaps have travelled furthest of all and deserve credit 3.10 pm for that, but they can and should do more. First, they Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): I thank DUP should stop describing a murderous atrocity as achieving Members for bringing this motion to the House, although, nothing, or pointless, or condemning the perpetrators like others, I am saddened that it is so pertinent as so as having no strategy. Such acts are not just wrong many positive things have happened in Northern Ireland strategically and tactically—they are just plain wrong. in recent years. We have seen a remarkable transformation. They are morally wrong. It would help if they could just The city I grew up in is unrecognisable compared with say so. how it was during the worst of the troubles. We should Secondly, republicans must do more to provide every be hugely grateful for that. It is an achievement of shred of information they have, whether recent or from which we should all be hugely proud, having made it the recesses of their memories, to the police—not selectively, happen. but completely.I believe that it was a major step backwards This is a pertinent motion, however, because the to see Sinn Fein leaders recently protesting outside security threat in Northern Ireland is very real. It was police headquarters against the arrest of a republican in visited most recently on the family of David Black, with the investigation into the murder of Robert McCartney his brutal murder. I want to offer again my condolences in Belfast. One either supports the police or not, and to his family—to his wife, his son and daughter, his the dogs on the street know that republicans have yet to parents and his sister, and the wider family—and his come clean on the brutal murder of Robert McCartney colleagues in the Northern Ireland Prison Service. It and the subsequent despicable persecution by republicans was an appalling murder committed in cold blood, and of his family. those who did it not only ruthlessly took a life but It is not just Sinn Fein who need to do more to recklessly endangered others on the motorway that strengthen our united stand against terror. The party morning. That demonstrates their utter disregard and behind the motion can sometimes be uncomfortably contempt for the entire community more effectively close to some of the hard men on the other side. than any words of mine in this place could ever do. 619 Security in Northern Ireland21 NOVEMBER 2012 Security in Northern Ireland 620

[Naomi Long] bring about a ceasefire and the disbandment of those groups. He denounced them as “mindless morons” with The murder was particularly ironic, given that David nothing positive to offer our community. We would all Black was an officer with a strong reputation within concur with his assessment, but a mindless moron with the prison service for supporting improved prisoner a weapon or bomb is a dangerous individual. We should welfare. The motives of his murderers contrast sharply never lose sight of that. These groups might lack a with those prisoners in Maghaberry who found a way vision for the future, but they are a threat to the present to mark their respect for him as an officer in that and the future, and we need to take them seriously. facility, seeking a book of condolences that they They are more wedded to their struggle than to any could sign. That is a poignant tribute to the quality of cause, which makes it particularly difficult for political service he gave to those placed in his care in the Prison intervention to succeed. Service. On the security response, I want to reflect on the need It is important also to commend the police for their for Westminster to co-operate with the Northern Ireland ongoing efforts to counter terrorist threats from all Executive. Like others, I welcome the additional funding sources. As others have mentioned, we know that two made available by the Treasury for the current people have been arrested for questioning today in comprehensive spending review period, and I recognise relation to the murder. I welcome that, because it describes the importance of countering the threat during this an active and ongoing police investigation. I wish them period and the level of commitment to ensuring it every success in bringing those responsible to justice. In continues into the next period. Northern Irish Members, doing so, they are not just delivering justice for the like Government Members, have mentioned the huge family but delivering justice and protection for the opportunities in the coming years in Northern Ireland. wider community.It is hugely important that the community Huge international events are due to happen, and we co-operate fully with the police in all their efforts. I also are hugely thankful that those things can take place in commend the close and effective co-operation between Northern Ireland and will shine a light on the positive the Police Service of Northern Ireland and the Garda. I things happening in our community. That is something know that my party leader, the Justice Minister in we should welcome. Northern Ireland, is hugely impressed and encouraged We have to recognise, however, that those events will by the ongoing work in that regard. place additional pressures on the PSNI when it comes I also commend the speedy response of the Prison to policing them, be they the UK city of culture, the Service and the police service in dealing with the world police and fire games or the G8 summit. All those concerns about the personal security of prison officers are, in effect, UK-wide events being hosted in Northern that have arisen as a result of the most recent attack. Ireland, and a single police force should not be expected As others have said, there were concerns about the to carry all the financial burden. The Police Federation speed of clearance of applications for personal protection for Northern Ireland recently raised with me its concerns weapons by officers leaving the service under the early that although mutual aid is available to the PSNI through redundancy scheme. I understand that they have been at the UK-wide scheme, it can often be difficult to access. least partially addressed by way of a commitment from For example, many other forces are not routinely armed the Chief Constable to fast-track those applications. or trained in the specific skills needed to engage in civil There were also concerns about the duration of the disobedience situations, as is the case in Northern Ireland. maintenance support for home security measures for We need to consider that point when we look to police prison officers, but I believe that they have been resolved resources and what is available to them. by an amendment to the scheme by the Prison Service. I am happy to support the motion, but I note an Clearly, other action is being taken to address the omission, which is why I am grateful for the remarks outstanding issues. made by the hon. Member for North Down (Lady This was not only an attack on an individual or the Hermon) and, in response, the right hon. Member for security services; it was an attack on the whole community, Belfast North (Mr Dodds) and others about loyalist and as such it requires a security, a political and a paramilitaries. They are also active in our community; community response. These attacks are designed to they are a destructive force, and the damage they can do dissuade people from joining the security services, to should not be underestimated. Their activities are no disrupt the political system, to drive a wedge between longer monitored as publicly as they used to be when parts of the community and to reignite and exploit the Independent Monitoring Commission was involved. sectarian tensions. It is hugely important, therefore, Often, these activities are dismissed, even when we raise that we work together and present a united front against them with the Northern Ireland Office, as merely criminality, people engaged in such activities to ensure that they do but it is criminality with a political purpose, and we not achieve any of those objectives. The community should never lose sight of that. We should be wary of needs to pull together and co-operate with the PSNI in not monitoring it as effectively and publicly as have bringing those responsible to justice. done in the past. Allegations of such groups recruiting young people are rife, and there is evidence of their As we are repeatedly reminded in statements by political being involved in civil unrest on the streets of our city leaders, these dissident groups are small, but there is no and our towns over the last few months, as others have direct correlation between their effectiveness and said. destructiveness and their size. They are forensically aware and therefore able continually to avoid detection. Stephen Lloyd: Does the hon. Lady agree that one of It is hugely important that we do not underestimate the the challenges in some parts of Northern Ireland is that impact that these individuals can have in our community. some loyalist racketeers are blocking the good work They have been denounced by Father Michael Canny, that the devolved Government are trying to do to who sought to engage with dissident republicans and improve employment prospects? 621 Security in Northern Ireland21 NOVEMBER 2012 Security in Northern Ireland 622

Naomi Long: I concur entirely. In some areas where from economically deprived and disadvantaged loyalism has a particular grip on the community, backgrounds may be more likely to fall prey to paramilitary racketeering and profiteering from local businesses has organisations, it would be unjust to those of us who often led to the destruction of small businesses and grew up in such communities, as I did, to suggest that severely damaged economic opportunities for those living that is a natural choice that people make. People still in the immediate area. have responsibility for their actions and for abiding by the rule of law, so the economy cannot excuse, although Sammy Wilson indicated assent. it might inform, our response. We need to be conscious of that. Naomi Long: I see the hon. Gentleman—who was previously a councillor in my constituency—concurring. The peace that we have in Northern Ireland is We are talking about something recognisable in many of exceptionally precious, and none of us should ever treat the communities that both of us have served. It is it lightly. It remains fragile, so I support the motion and therefore hugely important that we take seriously the the Government’s efforts with the Irish Government call by the Police Federation for Northern Ireland to and the Northern Ireland Executive to ensure that consider re-specifying organisations such as the Ulster Northern Ireland continues to prosper, as it has over Volunteer Force and also proscribing some of the newer recent years, and that those who are hellbent on its republican organisations, in order to aid the police and destruction are frustrated at every turn. security services in making progress against such organisations. I was born at the end of 1971; 1972 was the worst 3.25 pm year of the troubles. I lived my whole life as a child Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): Throughout this against the backdrop of violence in the city I grew up debate we have heard perspectives—perspectives of the in. I look at Belfast now and it is not the city that I grew troubles and an attempt to put the current situation in up in. It is a better, more vibrant, more open and more Northern Ireland into a new perspective—and it has welcoming place. I am hugely proud to have lived in been very valuable. We heard a thoughtful contribution that city; however, I would not wish my experiences of from the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd), growing up there as a child to be visited on another whose constituency bears the scar of Irish terror. As generation. When the Good Friday agreement and the each Member walks into this Chamber, under the scarred subsequent political agreements were made, I believed and broken ramparts of the Churchill arch, and as we that we were moving towards the end of such experiences. see above us the memorials to Robert Bradford, Airey I do not want young people in my community to have Neave and Ian Gow, we are all reminded of just how far the same memories—of death and destruction, of fear we have come. It is a miracle; there is absolutely no and terror—as I and my contemporaries grew up doubt about it. experiencing. It is not a normal way to live, and it should not be visited on today’s young people. Therefore, The hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) as elected representatives, together with the security mentioned her pride at having grown up as a Belfast services and the community, we must present a united woman and a citizen of Northern Ireland, understanding front so that those intent on continuing down this where she has come from and where her city has come destructive path are prevented at every turn. from. All of us on these Benches whose formative years were spent in those times remember an average body Security is part of the answer, but it is not the whole bag count of 80 or 90 souls sent into eternity by the answer. Our security response in the current context assassin’s bullet. That was our daily news intake as we needs to be effective, but also consistent with the kind of grew up. Only now, in normal times—and thank God Northern Ireland we want for the future. We need they are normal times—do we realise how perverse and politics to work. It needs to be a real alternative. It awful it was and what a harrowing vista it is to look needs to be resilient in the face of attack and united in back on. As a father, probably the happiest occasion for its condemnation of any breach of the rule of the law, me was when my daughter was 14 or 15 and said to me and without equivocation. We need to redouble our one day, when she had started her GCSE course, “Daddy, efforts to build a shared society and tackle sectarianism, what are the troubles?” As a person who grew up in which remains a breeding ground for the kind of hatred Northern Ireland and knew when I was 14 or 15 how that in turn breeds paramilitarism. We need maturity bloody the troubles were, that was a great question to be and generosity in dealing with the difficult issues that asked as a parent—a powerful question, and something still face us as a community, as part of the legacy of the that should spur us on, as fathers and grandfathers in troubles. We need to find ways of doing that which do this House, to hope that our children and our children’s not bring people on to the streets, placing them in children never go through or witness that awfulness conflict with our security services and creating opportunities again, as the hon. Lady said. It is important that we for those who wish to take the extra step from peaceful have that perspective, because the security needs of the protest to violent conflict by providing them with a country we live in are now very different, but they are platform to do so. still incredibly real. We should face these things head-on. Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) In the current spending round the police have been (Con): Does the hon. Lady agree that a fundamental given sufficient resources. We campaigned for that before part of preventing those issues from reoccurring is the devolution of policing and justice powers—we made rebalancing the economy and creating a much more it a red line and we achieved that. That was job done, vibrant economy in Northern Ireland? because it was essential to put our security services on a fair and good footing, so they could take us forward, Naomi Long: I agree that the economy is part of the hand in hand with economic progress, political stability solution, but would not argue that it is the cause of the and, of course, security gold-plating. We needed all problem. Although we have to recognise that those that, but the current Chief Constable and his senior 623 Security in Northern Ireland21 NOVEMBER 2012 Security in Northern Ireland 624

[Ian Paisley] murders. He was brought to trial for three of them, but got off on a technicality. That is the way the law team now have to put forward their bid for the new works, and we all accept the rule of law, but it galls us spending round, and that involves a leap of faith. Their that the police in Northern Ireland do not appear to calculations are not being made using clear, understood have sufficient resources to watch that man day and figures from the Secretary of State, the Northern Ireland night, so that the next time he tries to plan what was Office and the Government of Northern Ireland. They planned on the Lurgan bypass, he can be prevented are being made with a leap of faith. The police need to from doing it. I hope that the police get the money and retain the same level of spending that they got in the the surveillance equipment they need to undermine last spending round; otherwise, they will be under severe individuals such as those. pressure. Any diminution of the police’s ability to do their The Police Federation for Northern Ireland has called work has a morale-eating impact not only on police for an increase in police numbers. My hon. Friend the officers but on the entire civilian population of Northern Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) and I served Ireland. The police have to balance their books this on the Policing Board for about seven years—I think year, but they can do that only if they know that they that we were among the longest-serving members—and are not taking a leap of faith and hoping to get resources we constantly heard that call. We saw the numbers in next year and in the next Government spending round. the police service drop from 12,000 to 7,000. It now has They need adequate resources to do their job. about 6,800 members. The fact is that, this week, the police are going to have to start recruiting about 300 more I mentioned in an earlier intervention that the level of police officers. They have not asked permission to do so churn in the police force had increased. More police yet; they are taking a leap of faith. Because of the new officers than ever before are now resigning after only a training mechanisms and the long gestation period short policing career. The level does not yet represent a between starting as a probationer and becoming an spike on the charts, but it is starting to illustrate the active, serving officer on the street, they need to push existence of a problem. Police officers used to identify that button now, but they are taking a leap of faith their work as a calling, and they would spend 30 years because the money to recruit an additional 300 officers or more serving their community in that way. The new simply is not there. regime encourages police officers to see it as a short career, and many now go on to work in business or The Chief Constable and his team are going to go to management or some other profession. That has an the Policing Board and ask for that money, and I believe impact on the police force’s ability to hold on to recruits that we in this House, across the parties, and the Secretary and to do the job. If that becomes a problem in the of State should encourage them. We should tell them future, we will need the resource to address it. not only that they can ask for it but that they will have the resource to get the number of full-time police officers The police certainly will need resources to police the back up to 7,150. Why do we need those extra officers? G8 summit; they will need them to police the world Why do we need that money? We need them in order to police and fire games; and, as we approach 2016, they sustain our security capability in a practical way. An will certainly need them to police any public disturbance example is the air support unit that the police service or anything that arises as a result of those who will try runs. It requires a huge amount of resource to keep it to turn their memories into the commemoration of the going. The air patrols allow the police to watch people Somme or, in the south of Ireland, those who will try to as they travel along certain roads. The main road from turn their memories into the commemoration of the Dublin, from the border at Newry through to Belfast, is Easter rising. Those things will present policing challenges, a smugglers paradise. Many millions of pounds-worth so we must ensure that the police have adequate resources of contraband cigarettes and smuggled fuel go up and to address them. down that road every day. There is a multi-million Each year, we spend £37 million of policing money pound enterprise run by gangsters and criminals, and on policing the past. We have to do that because in the police need air support as well as ground support if order to get justice for what happened in the past, we they are to stop it. There are other measures that can be have to gather evidence, pursue those cases and hopefully taken, and I shall come to those later. bring people to trial—but that is a huge draining resource The police also need money for close protection that does not affect policing in any other part of the work. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast United Kingdom. Next year, we will spend £6 million North (Mr Dodds) said, they need money for surveillance on the Historical Enquiries Team; we will spend £6 million operations. One of the things that galls many Members this year on inquests; and we will spend £25 million on is that, although we know that certain individuals in legacy investigations—current detectives involved in policing Northern Ireland are responsible for particular crimes, the past. That has to be done, as I say, but it is at a cost. the police have been unable to get sufficient evidence to I want policing for the present and the future, but I secure successful prosecutions. Those people are loose know we have to continue with the project of getting on our streets. A great deal of effort is going into through these cases and ensuring that we bring justice providing proper surveillance of a certain person on the to people who rightly have questions that need to be streets of the mainland at the moment. Every effort is answered. being made to ensure that he is being properly tagged We have to recognise, however, that if that huge and that, at the first opportunity, he will be kicked out demand is there, the police cannot step forward on a of this nation. leap of faith when it comes to their budgets for next We need the same surveillance equipment to be made year and the next Government spending round. They available for certain people operating in Northern Ireland. have to know now that they will be adequately resourced One particular individual there is responsible for five to police the issues I mentioned, to furnish the HET, 625 Security in Northern Ireland21 NOVEMBER 2012 Security in Northern Ireland 626 inquests and legacy investigations and to get on with pound crime that is taking place in Northern Ireland. tackling sex trafficking and other serious and organised Those five people are brilliant, and they experience crime in Northern Ireland. threats to their lives because of the work that they do One of the biggest crimes that goes on in Northern and the people whom they approach; but their work is Ireland is fuel laundering. I am glad that our Northern being hampered because the Government have decided Ireland Affairs Select Committee is studying the problem. that it is important to focus on VAT fraud—on an office This is a multi-million pound crime. As I said, there is a desk job that involves going through VAT forms and highway—the A1 between Newry and Belfast—that is a deciding whether there has been any fraud. That is a smugglers paradise, and fuel is smuggled there every disgrace, and we need to get on with ensuring that those day. We need more resource put in to prevent that from staff are properly resourced. taking place. We need resource put in to find a proper We study history to learn the lessons, not to repeat fuel marker to diminish the current nonsense of officers the mistakes. It is clear that many mistakes have been from Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs pouring made down the years, but Northern Ireland has turned orange dye into fuel and then saying, “There—the a page, and there is a new chapter that Members of problem’s solved”. It is not solved. I do not care about Parliament are helping to write. We are seeing a new the colour poured in; whether orange or green dye is beginning, a bright dawn, and it is a much better, used, it does not solve the problem because all that brighter society in which we are living. However, there happens is that it is laundered out of the fuel. The more are still hurdles for us to jump, and we can jump them dye poured in, the more kitty litter needs to be stolen to only if our security services are properly resourced and launder it through the process. That just perpetuates we set out in a spirit of real togetherness to make the this cycle of crime. We need a new fuel marker in our changes that are necessary. fuel as soon as possible to stop the crime and put those gangsters out of business. 3.41 pm Just this week, gangsters in Belfast had a huge petrol Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): I support the motion. station dug up. It was owned by a man in South Let me begin by discussing its opening sentiments, Armagh, but it was dug up and the tanks were removed. which concern the murder of David Black. Will the gangster be charged? No. Will he go to jail? No. How much has he stolen from the Secretary of State’s David Black’s murder was rightly, strongly, thoroughly Government? Tens and tens of millions of pounds in and comprehensively condemned across the democratic this year alone—and he is getting away with it. We need political spectrum, which counts for an awful lot and, I that matter to be addressed—urgently. hope, means something to his family and colleagues. That may distinguish it from some of the previous Oliver Colvile: Does the hon. Gentleman and fellow murders of prison officers and others. However, I want member of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee to make clear that while we welcome that united, strong agree that we also need some more convictions? People condemnation, we believe that every other murder who behave this way are stealing money out of the committed by every other paramilitary group was equally Treasury’s pockets; we need to make sure that they get deserving of that thorough, comprehensive condemnation. sent to prison for it. David Black was entitled to his life and his living; so were all the other prison officers who were murdered by Ian Paisley: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right: various paramilitaries. His family were entitled to his the figures are startling. This year, because of smugglers, living love; so was every other victim in Northern the Treasury will lose £3 billion in unpaid revenue on Ireland. cigarettes—about a third of the entire Northern Ireland It is not the case that there was a phase during which budget. That is an incredible loss to the Exchequer. there were legitimate targets and we are now experiencing How many people will go to jail for that? Zero—a big a phase during which there are no legitimate targets. We fat zero. Why? Because these people are not prosecuted. all need to be clear about that, because there is a danger The latest thing we hear is “Well, we will do our best to that gross revisionism, on all sides and in all directions, get more of these people behind bars.” If surveillance will eventually plant in the heads of a new generation cannot be done, if these people cannot be trapped and if the false notion that the troubles were merely a necessary proper markers cannot be put in the fuel, we will never and unavoidable prelude to the peace process that we have sufficient evidence to convict them. I believe that now have. They were not. We must bear in mind the in the past 11 years, during which the Government have violent campaign of the IRA and the violence of loyalist lost billions of pounds in unpaid revenue because of paramilitaries, and the fact that loyalist paramilitaries fuel and cigarette smuggling, the authorities have prosecuted were indulged for years without even being proscribed. fewer than seven people and none have gone to jail. Unionist politicians justified the existence of the Ulster That is in an indictment of those at the top in the Defence Association by saying that it was a legal HMRC: they should be taking this on, and taking it on organisation, and Ministers in this House—in both with a vengeance. parties—justified not proscribing it as though there Jim Shannon: Does my hon. Friend agree that more were some acceptable level or form of terrorism or HMRC personnel should be available at airports such paramilitarism, which there never has been. I reject any as Belfast City and Aldergrove? Staff tell elected Members suggestion, whether it comes from Martin McGuinness that there are not enough of them to catch offenders. or any other member of Sinn Fein or from anyone else, Would not providing extra staff be a start? that there was ever any way of treating paramilitarism in any of its forms. Ian Paisley: That is an interesting point. I understand Of course David Black’s family have been promised that the current customs special investigation team consists what the families of many other victims have been of five people—five people dealing with the multi-billion- promised in the past: that no stone will be left unturned 627 Security in Northern Ireland21 NOVEMBER 2012 Security in Northern Ireland 628

[Mark Durkan] there. However, we should not be thwarted, intimidated, deflated or deflected in any way by the fact of knowing to bring the killers to justice. I join other Members in that they are going to try to do that. They might be able stating that I hope that is true, but the work of the to come up with viable devices that they can plant, but Historical Enquiries Team and other organisations has they have not been able to come up with any viable revealed that it was often in the past not true when rationale for what they are doing, because they are just victims were told no stone would be left unturned, stuck in a groove, carrying out the old provo tactics because it has been found that information held by the through the old provo methods. That is the only agenda intelligence services was not passed on to the police, or they have. that when information was passed on, the use to which As far as I am concerned, if these dissidents have any it could be put was heavily circumscribed. rationale, let them bring it forward—let them take it to There were victims whose murders could have been us. I will meet them; I have met them before, and I will prevented. There could have been intervention, meet them again, in my constituency or elsewhere. Any apprehension and prosecution, but that did not happen argument or case they want to put can be met by because an intelligence long-game was being played, democrats, and it needs to be met by democratic nationalism which allowed violence to happen. There was collusion and republicanism. There is an agenda for democratic and complicity, and that was not confined to the indulging nationalism and republicanism in the coming years: to of loyalist paramilitaries in attacks on Catholics; it disarm any pretence these dissidents have, not least in extended to republican attacks on police or prison the build-up to 2016 and the centenary of the 1916 officers and on civilian targets. Such attacks were allowed rising, that they are the sole keepers of the republican because it was believed that an intelligence asset was flame and that because they are the remnants of physical- being protected and must not be compromised. That force republicanism, they are the only people who stand should not happen. in the 21st century for the ideals of Irish republicanism People need to know that if anything has changed as and for the principles in the 1916 proclamation. Democratic a result of the peace process it is that there will be no nationalism, in all its forms and parties—now joined, interference or inhibition in the full and proper conduct thankfully at last, by Sinn Fein—has a duty to get its act of police inquiries and of prosecutions of anybody together to make sure that nobody is able to say that against whom there is relevant evidence. No consideration constitutional democratic nationalism, north and south, of protection of intelligence assets must be allowed to has been derelict on the basic nationalist cause or interfere in that. All victims need to have that assurance nationalist principle. nowadays, and they need it all the more because there is The dissidents try to say that those of us who subscribe evidence that in the past victims were sold short. to the Good Friday agreement have abandoned any Even the victims of the Omagh bombing feel that belief in nationalism or the republican ideal. I am 100% way. I know how sick they feel when they hear it being committed to the Good Friday agreement but I am still said that no stone will be left unturned, because they 100% a nationalist and committed to a united Ireland. I were assured of that as well. They believe calculations also know that many Unionists are 100% committed to were made and mistakes were allowed to happen in the the shared institutions we now have in a settled process Omagh investigation. As we completely reject the murder but that they are 100% committed to the Union. That is of David Black and the agenda of those behind it, we the strength and beauty of the agreement and these must also be clear that we are in no way trying to shared institutions: we can have our own different senses sanitise any of the past violence and excesses of any of legitimacy. The sense and source of legitimacy for group. me, as an Irish nationalist, comes from the wishes of the As has been said, the murder of David Black comes people of Ireland. The sense and source of legitimacy at a time when there are many things we should be for Unionists is bound up in the wishes of the people of positive about and be trying to build on. We are now Northern Ireland. learning to move beyond lobbying our special case—which With the Good Friday agreement, we recruited both we are very good at, and have had to be very good those senses and sources of legitimacy, so that we could at—and are getting much better at selling our special give allegiance to institutions, because Unionists cannot place. We will be able to do that through the opportunities give allegiance to institutions that are not legitimate we will have at the G8 summit next year, and we saw it according to their political ethic, and nationalists and with the MTV awards and the Titanic festival in Belfast. republicans cannot give allegiance to institutions that We will see it again at the world police and fire games, are not legitimate according to theirs. That is why in and when Derry becomes the UK’s city of culture next negotiating the agreement and in ratifying it by the joint year. That will be a fantastic year-long celebration referendum—articulated self-determination for this which will offer great opportunities for the city, particularly generation of the Irish people—we significantly moved as it will be happening in the same year that the island politics forward. We created a new beginning for politics of Ireland will have “The Gathering” as a way of and for policing. bringing back the diaspora to the island of Ireland. There was massive resistance to that, as we knew That will enable us to sell in a new way, and it will be then. At the time of the referendum on that agreement, hugely important and positive. We want to build on all I made pledges to people about those institutions. Many those positive sells. people found the institutions controversial; people found Of course, there are dissident groups and tendencies the idea of inclusion by mandate—just this elective who know that all such events and sells present an easy inclusion—hard to grasp. I started off as its sole proponent target for them. They could get very easy coverage from in the Social Democratic and Labour party, and the leaving a bomb outside the city of culture offices in SDLP started off in the talks as the sole party proposing Derry, for instance, or from planting devices here and it, but it became part of the outcome. Similarly, the idea 629 Security in Northern Ireland21 NOVEMBER 2012 Security in Northern Ireland 630 of a joint office of First Minister and Deputy First alienation and disaffection, helping them to recruit Minister was ridiculed by many, not least because we other people. It is quite clear that the dissidents are came up with it only in the last month of the negotiations, trying to do the same. but it was inspired by the sight of Seamus Mallon and I believe we need to disarm the dissidents of that David Trimble going to Poyntzpass following the murder ability, and we can do so. Nobody is more cynical about of Damien Trainor and Philip Allen by the Loyalist the cynicism of Sinn Fein than me, but when I meet Volunteer Force. That was a symbol: here were two republican dissident prisoners and their families and leaders—unionism and nationalism—almost literally they tell me, “We think Sinn Fein is using the situation helping to bind the wounds of the community and defy because they want to break us in the jails,” I tell them a violent threat aimed at undermining political prospects that although no one would be more on Sinn Fein’s case at the time. than me, I do not believe that that is true. The idea that At the time of that referendum, I predicted that the Sinn Fein is using David Ford, the Minister of Justice, Good Friday agreement institutions would have working to help break their rivals in the prisons is simply not in partnership not just unionists and nationalists, loyalists true. It is nonsense, but it is feeding the mindset of those and republicans, but those who vote yes and those who people and we need to confront it. vote no, because we did not want the agreement—those We need to ensure that we deal with people’s legitimate pro-agreement and anti-agreement—to end up being questions and concerns in prisons, for example about the new running cleavage in Northern Ireland politics why strip searches should be carried out at the rate and or in Irish politics. Thankfully, that prediction has in the form in which they are carried out. Whenever proved to be so. there is a clear modern technological alternative, that Sinn Fein had to play catch-up in accepting and should be used. Rather than wasting time experimenting getting its head around the political institutions in with the technology in other locations, it should be the new arrangements and the new beginning for brought in where it is most needed and that is Maghaberry. policing, which it rejected and attacked us for. All sorts of intimidatory gestures were used in the council Ian Paisley: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that today chambers when we were nominating people to the district the new BOSS— or body orifice security scanner—chair policing partnerships; gun-shaped hands were being has been introduced into Northern Ireland, meaning pointed at people and all the rest of it. We faced that that the number of full strip searches will be reduced? down and we saw this through because it needed to As a result, I understand, 20 dirty protestors have come happen. Those people of course were saying that change off their dirty protests. would not happen. The unionists, in the form of the Mark Durkan: The hon. Gentleman is reinforcing my Democratic Unionist party and others, were saying that point, which I have made to people in the Northern change should not happen, but it needed to happen. In Ireland Prison Service and to others, about my interventions the end, when those in Sinn Fein conformed on policing and involvement and many other people’s, too. That is all they brought to the policing agenda was themselves. the point that we have been making; we want to see that Nevertheless, that was important and welcome, and we argument disarmed. see its importance and worth when we see the First Minister and Deputy First Minister able to stand with Similarly, when people raised serious health questions the Chief Constable and others in the aftermath of about the circumstances of prisoners such as Marian murders in recent years. That was hugely important and Price and latterly Gerry McGeough, we were trying to it had to happen, but some of us had to see it through ensure that those issues were properly addressed. Any and take that stand, and some of the “veto-holic” sentences duly imposed must be served, but, as with any tendencies of other parties had to be faced down—that prisoner, if any issue gives rise to thoughts about their is what has to be remembered. release, it should at least be considered. In today’s debate, I have listened to nostalgia bumping Naomi Long: I thank the hon. Gentleman for the into amnesia on the way back from revisionism on the points he is making and realise that he does so with question of how we are where we are now. We have had great passion, but if we are going to disarm those who more people on more roads to Damascus in Northern try to use the prison situation as a recruiting ground for Ireland in the past 10 years than the Syrian bus fleet dissident republicans, would it not be helpful if the would have on a peaceful day. That has been good, SDLP, rather than making the case that such an approach because people have moved from justifying and supporting is almost valid, stood with the Justice Minister and violence to being able to condemn it. They used to others to say that the processes are in place, that health condemn us for the politics of condemnation; now they assessments for those prisoners are received and that are thoroughly involved in condemning what should be the proper actions are being taken, disabusing them of and needs to be condemned and confronted. the notion in that way? There is also an issue about dissidents. Not only will they try to exploit the fact that the rest of us all support Mark Durkan: I can assure the hon. Lady that in any the agreement and are now branded as the establishment, of the conversations I have, I disarm people of any particularly at a time when there is a lot of economic prejudice they might have. Any assurance I can give disaffection and difficulty—it is very easy for them to them about the attitude of the prison service, the Minister, try to seize on that sense of alienation, which has been the overall regime or anything else, I give them. It is faced by some other hon. Members—but they are trying equally important that representatives reflect the issues to exploit impressions about the situation in the prisons. and concerns they hear from families, however. Historically, the provisionals movement exploited There is also a point to make about where the dissidents impressions and issues in prisons in a way that helped to are and where they hope to be. In my constituency, I see fuel them and their campaign and to feed a sense of a number of different brands of dissident, but the one 631 Security in Northern Ireland21 NOVEMBER 2012 Security in Northern Ireland 632

[Mark Durkan] been arrested; the prosecutions identify that that is not an insignificant terrorist group, but does indeed pose a thing they have all been able to do in recent years is to terrorist threat. get more young people to pick up their leaflets at events I thank the shadow Secretary of State for acknowledging and to leave with some of their literature. We have had that things have changed significantly, and that we have different brands of dissident. Some, such as those in a confident Northern Ireland, which is confident on the RAAD—Republican Action Against Drugs—were seen world stage. The excellent announcement that the Prime for a number of years as policing dissidents, rather than Minister was able to make yesterday concerning the G8 political dissidents, as they did not disagree with the proves that confidence, not only within Northern Ireland overall political project. Now they are disagreeing with but within the United Kingdom, as the Prime Minister the overall political project. They are finding each other projects Northern Ireland across the world in bringing and getting together, so there is some drift or mission world leaders to our Province. I also thank the hon. creep among dissidents and we should not underestimate Member for Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd) for his that. participation, and the personal knowledge that he has Just as the dissidents are getting together, we as expressed in this matter. democrats should show that we stand together in our The hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) political institutions. Whatever political differences we made a valuable intervention on the inventory of terrorist might air in the Assembly, in the Chamber today or weaponry—because we do need the greatest possible anywhere else, they must see us standing shoulder to transparency—and on a garden of remembrance for shoulder behind the democratic opportunities mandated prison officers. Those are salient matters that needed to by the Irish people north and south, unionist and be brought up in the debate, and I thank her for doing nationalist. We do not pretend that our problems are all so. The hon. Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) behind us; the opportunities are all ahead of us and we pointed to the remarkable achievements. However, we can seize them by working and standing together. should not underestimate the capacity of republicans to create serious problems to life and property, while bearing 4pm in mind the significant events of the past year. Thankfully, Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): This has those events put us on the world stage for the right been a very helpful debate. We have been outlining the reason. We look forward to more remarkable events positives that we all recognise in Northern Ireland, yet that are planned for the future. we have also highlighted the dangers that still face many My hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann (David of the law-abiding citizens in our constituencies. We are Simpson) pointed out that most Members of the House thankful that things are not as they used to be; nevertheless, know nothing of what it is to have to look under their we must not let our guard down, and we must not be cars and to exercise personal security because one happens complacent. Although many, including those within to be deemed to be an opponent of the republican Government, call these terrorists dissidents, let us not terrorists. I think that is a fact that many in the House forget that many of these same terrorists were players have never grasped, even in the darkest days of our trained in the knowledge and practice of terrorism by Province. the Provisional IRA leadership. I thank the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Before dealing specifically with the motion, I acknowledge Long). We certainly do not want to point Northern the valuable contributions by many across the House, Ireland back into the dark ages we came through, but I raising their voices in condemnation of the brutal murder can assure her that my right hon. and hon. Friends in of Mr David Black, a gentle man whom I had the the Executive will work with her party’s Minister and privilege of knowing personally, being from the town in leader, Mr Ford, and Security Minister, Mr Porter, in which I was educated; it formed part of my former the efforts to give political leadership to the PSNI and constituency of Mid Ulster, which I represented in the the Prison Service at this challenging time. House for 14 and a half years. Sadly, since 1997 that My hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim (Ian constituency has never had a voice in the House. The Paisley) spoke about the harrowing times past and the only beneficiaries are the coffers of Sinn Fein, without miracle of the present situation. We grandparents never the obligation to give representation here. want to see our grandchildren—I am proud to say that I I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast have nine—go through the dark days that my children North (Mr Dodds) for his opening speech, in which he had to go through in our home, under constant threat skilfully and professionally set out the backcloth for from the terrorists in Northern Ireland. our motion. I also thank the other Members who participated. I thank the Secretary of State for her To the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) I say thoughtful speech, rightly identifying the remarkable that I accept that there is no acceptable level of violence— progress, which few could ever have imagined, in there never was; there never will be. Terrorism was an Northern Ireland. I also noted that she acknowledged evil in our midst and terrorism is an evil in our midst. the arrest of two persons from Coalisland in relation All must equally condemn it and none must be allowed to the murder of Mr David Black. I would remind to sanitise the evil of the past. her, however, that recently, buildings were found in Although I disagreed with some of the remarks made which weapons of war were being hoarded, nearby in by the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie), I the same Coalisland area. It would be interesting to suggest to her that when one has the opportunity, and know how much public money was received to erect or uses it quite often, to give insults, it is always best to be to rent those properties. I think that deeper investigations able to take criticism when criticism is due. That is a should be considered. I think of the Secretary of State’s good lesson, I think. There is a lesson in her evidence on remarks as regards a number of terrorists that have why her colleagues in certain places supported McGeough, 633 Security in Northern Ireland21 NOVEMBER 2012 Security in Northern Ireland 634 who tried to murder my colleague on Dungannon and Defence Regiment members and innocent civilians are South Tyrone council. The lesson of the past is this: you equally repugnant and evil. No elevation to high office cannot go soft on terrorists; you cannot go soft on those or elected office can remove the stain from their conscience who have actually gone through the courts, and when or erase the record from the eternal book, which will be they have done so, they certainly have to spend the time opened on the day of judgment before the Almighty in prison— Judge and justice will finally be handed out. I congratulate the Black family on the dignity that Ms Ritchie: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? they have displayed before, during and after David’s Dr McCrea: Yes, as I did mention the hon. Lady. funeral. I pray that God will give them strength day by day to face the future, but I can assure them that that is Ms Ritchie: I remind the hon. Gentleman of one not easy. They have made it clear to all that they do not person who died, obviously in tragic circumstances, desire revenge, but they do want justice to be done and with whom certain people had associations: Mr Billy those responsible to be found guilty. Wright. Republican terrorists will not be satisfied with the murders of Constable Stephen Carroll and Ronan Kerr Dr McCrea: I would say that that is a very serious or those of Patrick Azimkar and Mark Quinsey at the charge, which proves it is an appalling charge, a lying Massereene barracks in my constituency, or with the charge, and a charge that should not have been made in attempted murder of my constituent, Constable Peadar this House. I say to the hon. Lady that I was a member— Heffron, or the numerous failed attempts on the lives of several members of the security forces. No, they are a Ms Ritchie: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? part of the death squads of hate, and therefore the law-abiding community has a right to look to the Dr McCrea: No, I will not. I was a member of Government for security and protection. Magherafelt district council. When young soldiers were murdered at Warrenpoint, it was an SDLP member—it I appreciate that policing was devolved to Stormont, is recorded in the minutes of the council—who said, “I but national security, including for the people of Northern will not shed a tear over the murder of those soldiers at Ireland, is still the responsibility of this House. Therefore, Warrenpoint.” it is important that a united voice goes out from this House in condemnation of the violence that is daily Ms Ritchie: Who said that? being planned by various republican terrorist groups against the vast majority of people, who simply desire Dr McCrea: He did, an SDLP member. It is recorded to build a peaceful future. Indeed, many are finding it in the minutes. When challenged about why he would hard to cope with the economic downturn across Europe say such a thing, he replied, “Because they weren’t and face challenges with regard to daily living, including Irish.” That was despicable. I am happy for the hon. the possibility of some having to join the unemployment Lady to look at the minutes of the council, way back in queues for the first time ever in their lives. When I look Magherafelt. I was there; she was not. across the Province, I see enough suffering, sickness and The DUP motion rightly commences with our expression hurt among families, and I cannot comprehend why of deepest sympathy to the family of Prison Officer some simply spend their energies scheming evil, desiring David Black. His murder represents an attack on society only to add grief, harassment, intimidation, terror and as a whole. I was stunned on hearing the tragic news of murder to our community. the despicable murder of another innocent victim of We in Northern Ireland are resilient people. Indeed, IRA terrorism. David was a public servant who gave we have proved this. We withstood more than 30 years honourable and unstinting service to the Prison Service. of Provisional IRA bombs and bullets and resolutely Unlike the cowards who murdered him, David exemplified faced them to achieve our right to remain part of this all that is good in Ulster people, doing his duty with United Kingdom. Our legitimacy as Unionists, unlike integrity, decency and bravery. We all know that a car what the hon. Member for Foyle has said, is not that the with Dublin registration plates pulled up alongside Unionist people of Northern Ireland desire to be part David as he travelled between Portadown and Lurgan of the United Kingdom, but that Northern Ireland, on the M1 motorway, and David was shot dead—in England, Scotland and Wales desire to be part of that other words, he was brutally murdered. United Kingdom. That is our legitimacy and it will be Unlike most, if not all, Members of this House, I had proven shortly, when the referendum comes to pass and the personal privilege of knowing David. I counted him the people of Scotland realise that we are stronger and his wife’s family circle as personal friends. He was a together than we would be apart. However, we need loving husband to Yvonne, a devoted father to Kyle and help. We urgently need the Government here to work Kara, and a caring son and brother. The murderers did closely with the Northern Ireland Executive to provide not care about those excellent characteristics and credentials the fullest possible protection to members of the prison of David Black. All they had was a lust for blood; vile service and police officers in general, both serving and murder was in their hearts. To Yvonne, Kyle, Kara, his ex-members. elderly parents and his sister, I offer my heart-felt sympathy, About two years ago, the Prime Minister and the having walked the lonely pathway to the graveside of Chancellor of the Exchequer agreed additional access my own loved ones. to Treasury reserves—£200 million—over a four-year This was a cold-blooded and callous murder, but it period to assist in the fight against republican terrorist must be remembered that the murders of the other groups. I appreciate that two years’ worth of money has 29 prison officers who were butchered by terrorists, been drawn down and that another two years’ worth is mainly the Provisional IRA, were, too. Those who to follow, but the threat has not diminished in our murdered all the prison officers, police officers, Ulster Province to the point that we may not need extra money 635 Security in Northern Ireland21 NOVEMBER 2012 Security in Northern Ireland 636

[Dr McCrea] will probably get into trouble with my own daughter for calling them children—held themselves together to pay from the Treasury reserve fund. I therefore ask the tribute to their father was enormously moving, as I said Chancellor and the Prime Minister to give a commitment a few moments ago. that as long as the security situation demands, additional Although I was not at Enniskillen, I was at Corporal funds from the Treasury reserve will be available to Day’s funeral. If had known that the First Minister was allow the police service to plan for the necessary equipment flying down, I would have flown down with him so and personnel. that I could have been at both. However, it might have We also need to be assured that all necessary measures been a tight squeeze. In the next debate, I will perhaps will be taken to combat and defeat the threat posed by make some further comments on Corporal Day and her terrorist organisations. We must not let our Province loved ones. slip back into the cycle of murder and mayhem. We The debate was rightly opened by the right hon. must therefore be determined to protect our community. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds). In his wide-ranging In conclusion, perhaps a few practical suggestions speech, which has been reiterated by many other Members, would be helpful. Many former prison and police officers the main thing that he called on Her Majesty’s Government live in vulnerable areas of the Province, and yet they to do was to be steadfast and give a long-term commitment have had their personal protection weapons removed. to stamping out terrorism in Northern Ireland, no That is disgraceful. Many people, at the end of their matter which side it comes from. We give that commitment sterling service through years of terrorism and intimidation, today, as have the Prime Minister and the Secretary of have been told to hand over their PPWs and have had State on previous occasions. the security measures removed from their homes. In Yesterday, the Prime Minister reiterated the point at their place, they have been handed a leaflet on personal meetings with the First Minister and Deputy First protection. Will the Minister tell the House how many Minister, and told them, “As your Chief Constable said, PPWs have been removed from former police officers, you need more.” I said exactly the same to the Chief prison officers and personnel of the Ulster Defence Constable and the Justice Minister, David Ford, and the Regiment or Royal Irish Regiment? Secretary of State has also said that. We meet regularly; A few weeks ago, the Home Office stated that the my door is permanently open, my phone is on, and we threat from dissident IRA groups had reduced on the can talk about many of the issues that we need to mainland. I welcome that, but we need to be careful in discuss. If there is a need, however, we will address it. how we communicate such news. These sick, murdering There has been much discussion of the £200 million maniacs can consider such language as putting it up to from the contingency fund. That money has been on a them and it can therefore be counter-productive. Indeed, two-year draw-down. A lot of it was drawn down early it was after that announcement that my friend, David as it had to be for capital projects—what I call capital Black, was brutally murdered. projects are slightly different from what others call Although we must highlight the security threat, we them and include vehicles as well as buildings. We also must also put on the record how pleased we are to have needed money for people and ongoing revenue costs. the opportunity to welcome the world leaders of the G8 The Government are working with David Ford and to our beautiful Province. I assure them and this House the Chief Constable to look at exactly how that money that our Province has much to offer. We will do all was spent, so that we can go back to the Treasury within our power to ensure that the world knows that and say, “See, we need this funding again—or we will Northern Ireland is and will continue to be, irrespective do in three years’ time.” We do not need a brand new of any terrorist threat, open for business. vehicle straight away, but that time will come. There is CCTV—technology moves on very fast, and we 4.17 pm must ensure there is something in the pot for that. If we go back to the Treasury, it will probably not be for The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mike contingency funding. We would not do that in a normal Penning): It is an honour and a privilege to stand here spending round and would keep spending within the as the Minister of State for Northern Ireland. I have allocation. taken questions in this capacity, but this is my first We are, however, conscious that there are exceptional debate. circumstances, particularly at the moment. The group May I say at the outset that even though there may be likes to be called the “new IRA”, but that is the last time disagreements across the House—and we have seen a I will stand at the Dispatch Box and say that because tiny bit of that today—we all want peace in Northern there is nothing new about thuggery, murderers and Ireland? The peace process has given us the ability to sit people of that description. We give them oxygen by in this Chamber and discuss, fairly rationally, a difficult giving them that badge—they may think it is a badge of situation. In the past, that would have been more difficult honour but it is exactly the opposite. Those people are or would not have happened at all. It certainly would thugs and murderers who are living in the past. They not have taken place in the tone that we have heard are trying to drag people—a lot of them young people—into today. what went on in the past, and we must do everything May I also, at the outset, place on the record my possible to address that. thoughts and prayers for the family of David Black? I There have been 16 contributions, 11 of which were was at his funeral with the Secretary of State, the not interventions but proper speeches. I will not be able shadow Secretary of State and other Members. It was to answer every question raised, but my officials have one of the most moving funerals that I have ever diligently taken notes and I will write to right hon. and attended. The way in which his children—they probably hon. Members if I do not address their particular will not like my calling them children at their age, and I points now. One of the final points raised concerned 637 Security in Northern Ireland21 NOVEMBER 2012 Security in Northern Ireland 638 how many personal protection weapons have been Lady Hermon: I thank the Minister very much indeed removed. I have been in this job for three and a half for agreeing to a round-table discussion on a memorial months but I do not know that figure off the top of my garden for those 30 prison officers, which is wholly head. It was probably an obvious question and I should appropriate. I would hope that Finlay Spratt and others have had a response ready, but I will write to the hon. will be there. Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea) and let him On the inventory of decommissioned weapons, I know. welcome the Minister’s explanation that the Government The process is quite simple. There is an appeals appear not to have the document, but will he kindly process and a decision is made by the Chief Constable confirm what is believed, which is that the document, of the Police Service of Northern Ireland either for a the inventories and the details are kept in the university new weapon or for a weapons licence to be renewed. If of Boston in America? Will the Minister clarify that if I that is declined, the case is referred to me on appeal. I were an academic, I could go to Boston and have open assure hon. Members that I look at every individual access to the inventories, but the people of Northern case—I have had quite a few in the first couple of Ireland, and the MPs representing Northern Ireland, weeks, and think I might see some more. cannot see them? That is ludicrous. I raised personal protection weapons when I met the head of the Northern Ireland Prison Service, and I will Mike Penning: I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention soon meet a representative of the Prison Officers and am pleased about the work we will look to do on Association, which I phoned the following day. The the memorial. head of the Northern Ireland Prison Service told me On decommissioned weapons, the hon. Lady said categorically that any prison officer who needs a weapon earlier that we must not hide behind the independent will get one or has got one. body. Look at the size of me—I could not behind anybody! I am not hiding behind anything. I will discuss A lot of prison officers were not taking their weapons the matters the hon. Lady has mentioned with my home. The issue of complacency was touched on during officials, but I personally do not know where the hell the debate, and I will come on to people checking their those details are. She is much better informed than I, vehicles and so on in a moment. A lot of weapons were given the short time I have been in this job. The Secretary being left in the armoury at work and not being taken of State and officials will talk this through with the hon. home. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. We need to Lady when they meet, but I have to go with the information reiterate people’s personal responsibilities, as well as I have been given. those of the state and employers. I concur with what was said about people having things taken away and Hon. Members have spoken of the terrible, appalling being given a piece of paper, and more needs to be done murder of David Black not only because it was a on that. I know, for instance, that the PSNI has already terrible murder, but because of how it was done. One visited and is giving seminars and doing work with thing that the police and forensics are looking at is prison officers to increase their awareness and ensure exactly where that high-velocity weapon came from and that measures are in place to help them. where it has been stored. We know the weapon, but we do not know where it has been stored. Hon. Members In the last couple of months I have also looked have mentioned close protection weapons, but based on carefully at home protection. I met Lord Carlile, the the evidence we have seen so far, David Black would not Chief Constable and David Ford to look at that issue, have been saved by one. Anyone willing to put so many and we will look carefully at having a more level playing people’s lives at risk by driving at speed on a motorway field. I do not care who someone is employed by; if they at 7.30 am while opening up with a high-velocity weapon are doing a job, protecting people and are at risk, the shows a lack of care for other people that beggars situation should be the same for everyone. The system belief. does not operate that way at the moment, and we will look carefully at the issue. Interestingly, those people are a bunch of cowards—they do not want to get hurt themselves but they put other I could not go further without addressing the two people in the position of getting hurt—and they do not points made in interventions by my friend the hon. want to get caught, but their action was very risky. It is Member for North Down (Lady Hermon)—[Interruption.] important that we try to understand where these dissident She is a friend to me. First, on a commemoration for the republicans are going rather than thinking back to the 30 prison officers, it would be right and proper for us to past and learning what they used to do. Some of their have a round-table discussion with all interested people. technology and methodology has not changed, but I recently opened a new memorial in my constituency to some things they are starting to do are different—probably those who have fallen since the second world war. The out of desperation, but who knows? memorial, which was unveiled the day before Remembrance I have promised to write to hon. Members if I do not day this year, was provided by public donation. We deal with their points now, but in the one minute could certainly look at her suggestion and have that remaining I want to reiterate what the Prime Minister discussion. said yesterday when he was in Northern Ireland. It is Secondly, on how much weaponry was taken away, significant that the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom the Prime Minister has said in the House that we do went to Northern Ireland to meet people in the very not have the list—it is not within the Government’s successful factory where they work. I got trapped with archives. The Secretary of State has offered to meet the the owners on the plane coming back. They were so hon. Lady, and we can see how that goes, but we chuffed—it was absolutely brilliant for them to meet the genuinely do not have the list to release. The Prime Prime Minister and for their staff to have that personal Minister has said that, and I have had it checked during contact. The Prime Minister reiterated—as did the Secretary the debate. of State—that we will work with the Opposition. We 639 Security in Northern Ireland 21 NOVEMBER 2012 640

[Mike Penning] Military Covenant will work with anyone, and if some of these groups, on any side, want to meet me, I am more than happy to 4.30 pm meet them anywhere. It is really important that we Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): I engage with them and try to dispel the concept that they beg to move, could win anything by such actions. We need to work That this House acknowledges the service and sacrifice of the together, and we will give everything necessary, in security United Kingdom’s armed forces and veterans and supports the terms and in cost terms, to the PSNI and the other full implementation of the military covenant in each region of the security services to ensure that the people of Northern United Kingdom. Ireland go forward, not back into the terrible abyss of It is an honour to lead off in this debate on behalf of before. my colleagues on this side of the House. At the outset, I Question put and agreed to. want to pay tribute to all of our service personnel from Resolved, across the United Kingdom, and indeed from other That this House extends its deepest sympathy to the family of countries, who serve in our armed forces. I also pay Prison Officer David Black, whose murder represented an attack tribute to the veterans who have served this country upon society as a whole; condemns the violence of the various with great distinction. In Northern Ireland, we hold our republican terrorist groups now active in Northern Ireland; and armed forces in very high esteem, and we have seen in calls on the Government to work closely with the Northern recent years—during the time of the troubles—how the Ireland Executive in providing the fullest possible protection to armed forces were on the front line, standing in the gap members of the prison service and the security forces generally, between the general public and those whose objective and to ensure that all necessary resources and measures are was to create mayhem and undermine the democratic deployed to combat the threat from terrorists in Northern Ireland. process. We have also seen our armed forces in action in recent years in Iraq and Afghanistan. We understand the sacrifice that they make, and the sacrifices made by their families—by those left behind at home, the husbands, wives and children of members of our armed forces. That is important in the context of this debate, because the military covenant should not just be about the personnel who serve or have served: it includes their families. Like all right hon. and hon. Members, I stood beside the war memorial in Lisburn in my constituency on 11 November as we honoured the dead of two world wars and of the conflicts that have occurred since the second world war. I watched as my constituent Ian Walker, his wife Rhoda and their sons, Kyle and Ross, laid a wreath in memory of Corporal Stephen Walker, who served with 40 Commando in Afghanistan and was killed in action in May 2010. Although Stephen had been living in Scotland with his family, he was from Lisburn and our community saluted his memory. We stood with Ian and his family as they remembered their dear loved one, and this was repeated in many places across the United Kingdom. It was good to see that representatives of the Irish Government were present at some of the war memorials in Northern Ireland to mark the fact that many people from the Irish Republic served in the British Army during the great war in particular, which of course occurred before the Republic of Ireland left the United Kingdom. Indeed, some have served since then, and even today we have people from the Republic of Ireland in the modern British Army and the other services.

Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): Does the right hon. Gentleman share my hope that the leadership that has been shown by the Irish Government on remembrance may defuse some of the tensions in Northern Ireland around the implementation of the military covenant, which is still—sadly—a politicised issue?

Mr Donaldson: I thank the hon. Lady for that point and I will come on to that subject in the course of my remarks. 641 Military Covenant21 NOVEMBER 2012 Military Covenant 642

Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): That is wonderful testimony to the men and women Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the significant who step out of their day-to-day work, leave their and beneficial effects of recent days has been the issue families behind and serve the country overseas, often in he has just raised? Many people in the Irish Republic, very dangerous circumstances. In paying tribute to the who for several generations were afraid to recognise, or reserve forces in Northern Ireland, I want to make were unaware of, the contribution made by many people particular mention of the Reserve Forces and Cadets in the Irish Republic to the armed forces, both here in Association, which is especially active in Northern Ireland. the United Kingdom and in the Republic, in the fight Throughout the years of the troubles, it ensured that against fascist Germany, are now beginning to recognise, recruitment to the reserves continued even in some realise and appreciate that? areas that might surprise hon. Members. That persists to this day. Most, if not all, of the reserve units in Mr Donaldson: I concur entirely with my hon. Friend. Northern Ireland are extremely well recruited. I hope I recently had the great honour of being appointed to that the Minister will have the opportunity—I know it the advisory board that is preparing for 2014 to 2018 is his intention—to visit some of those units in Northern and the United Kingdom’s commemorations of the Ireland. He will receive a very warm welcome. great war. I have been giving some thought to how we What is the purpose of this debate? I want briefly to might commemorate that period in Northern Ireland. It set out some context. A recent report published by the is important that people in the Irish Republic, and the World Health Organisation on post-traumatic stress Government of the Irish Republic, recognise the massive disorder found that Northern Ireland had a higher contribution made by thousands of Irish men, from the incidence of PTSD and trauma-related illnesses than counties that now form the Irish Republic, who served any other conflict-related country in the world. That in the British Army. Many served with great distinction, included places such as Lebanon and Israel. It was winning Victoria Crosses and other meritorious awards remarkable that the study found that nearly 40% of for their courage and bravery. For example, one thinks people in Northern Ireland had been involved in some of Captain Redmond—the brother of the then leader kind of conflict-related traumatic incident. The survey of the Irish Nationalist party in this House, John estimated that violence had been a distinctive cause of Redmond—who served with distinction and sadly lost mental health problems for about 18,000 people in his life in the service of the Crown. Today, there are Northern Ireland. Against that backdrop, the health others from the Republic of Ireland who step up to the and social care services in Northern Ireland seek to mark and join the Royal Irish Regiment, the Irish provide a service to members of our armed forces and Guards and other units in the Army, and the other veterans from Northern Ireland. There is already a elements of the armed forces. They make a contribution huge demand on these services from across Northern that we value. It is good to see attitudes changing in the Ireland as a result of trauma-related illnesses arising Republic of Ireland towards those who have served and from the conflict. who continue to serve in our armed forces. Before I remark on the deficiencies in the service, I It would be remiss not to mention the name of want to acknowledge that the Department of Health, Corporal Channing Day, to whom the Minister of Social Services and Public Safety, within the legislative State, Northern Ireland Office referred in his closing constraints, has made efforts to ensure that a degree of remarks in the previous debate. She was a remarkable priority is given to members of the armed forces and young woman, 25-years-old and serving with 3 Medical veterans in Northern Ireland when providing health Regiment. The medics are often overlooked. Their courage and personal care. The Health Minister, Edwin Poots, is and bravery in the face of extremely dangerous a constituency colleague and hails from Lagan Valley, circumstances, seeking to save lives and rescue those and I do not wish to criticise him, because he is determined who find themselves wounded as a result of combat, is to ensure that our service personnel and veterans receive often overlooked. I pay tribute to Corporal Day. I can the level of support they require when they need it. His do no better than repeat the comments of her sister Department has established an armed forces liaison Lauren at Channing’s funeral: forum linked to the armed forces protocol, which has “Channing loved the Army. If there was one thing she knew done valuable work in seeking to co-ordinate the health growing up, it was that she wanted to be a soldier, proven by the and social care response to the needs of service personnel way she would march around the living room and she never and veterans living in Northern Ireland. In addition, missed cadets. She loved what she did and we are so proud of her. Channing grew up into the bravest, beautiful, determined woman, the Department has worked with the reserve forces and she has done more in her 25 years than most women her age and cadets association and military charities to examine we are so very proud of everything she has achieved.” how services can be improved in line with the objectives Today, we pay tribute to the men and women of our of the military covenant. armed forces across the United Kingdom who daily I also want to mention the Department for Social place themselves in the line of fire not only for this Development, where another of my colleagues, Nelson nation, but for others across the world who need their McCausland, is Minister for Social Development. The protection. housing needs of those leaving the armed forces are I want to also pay tribute not just to our regular taken into account under the housing selection scheme armed forces, but to the reserve forces. In Northern in Northern Ireland. That is important. Ireland, we are proud of the contribution that our I also want to praise the work of the aftercare service reserve forces make to all elements of the armed forces put in place specifically for those who served with the in the United Kingdom. We are proud that despite the Ulster Defence Regiment and the Royal Irish Regiment. fact that Northern Ireland makes up approximately 3% Northern Irish Members fought hard to get that service of the UK population, we regularly provide more than in the period leading up to the disbandment of the 20% of the reserve forces on operational deployment. home service battalions of the Royal Irish Regiment. 643 Military Covenant21 NOVEMBER 2012 Military Covenant 644

[Mr Donaldson] mention instances in their areas of where the military covenant might not quite be delivering yet for service We worked with the previous Government towards the personnel and veterans. establishment of the service, because we recognised that I want to give the House an example of an individual, one of the legacies of the troubles were the many people who I have been trying to help, who has found himself who had served in the armed forces in Northern Ireland in great difficulty. James Burns is a young man from over a prolonged period as part of Operation Banner, Mallusk in County Antrim, in the constituency of my the longest-running military operation in the history of hon. Friend the Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea). the British Army. These men and women had served James was formerly a lance corporal with 40 Commando. constantly. It was not a matter of spending six months He had been on operational service in Afghanistan, on operational deployment in Northern Ireland and returned to his family in Northern Ireland and developed then maybe not coming back for another two years. post-traumatic stress disorder. Sadly, as a result of his Rather, the Royal Irish Regiment, and the Ulster Defence illness he turned to alcohol. As a result of the lethal mix Regiment before it, served continuously on military of alcohol and his medical condition, he developed operations in Northern Ireland for a very long time—from violent behaviour and got himself into trouble, harming the early 1970s through to the disbandment of the himself and those around him. Only a few months after home service battalions—and was recognised for its his military career ended, he is sadly now in prison service with the award of the Conspicuous Gallantry serving a sentence. Cross by Her Majesty the Queen. I just feel that there is something wrong with a system The aftercare service is important. We believe that, in in which a soldier comes home from operational deployment time, it is a model that other parts of the United to his family and, within months, finds himself serving Kingdom might seek to implement. It takes a hands-on a prison sentence for behaviour that he and his family approach, not just responding to the needs of soldiers would argue might have been beyond his control because with medical issues or welfare problems, but proactively of his medical condition. I am not trying to excuse what engaging with people to ensure that their needs are met. James has done, and his family do not seek to do so either. What they are seeking is help for that young Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): My right hon. man. He has a young family, and they do not want to Friend has extensively described much of the support see his life completely ruined. There is clearly more that that is available to soldiers who have left the Army, but we can do to help young men like James—and, indeed, does he agree that, in the light of the Prime Minister, young women—who develop post-traumatic stress disorder the Attorney-General and the Ministry of Defence as a result of the traumatic experiences that they have yesterday turning their back on Danny Nightingale, the had to endure while on operational deployment. SAS soldier who has been imprisoned, many people will call into question just how much support soldiers get Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): The case to when they really are in trouble? which my right hon. Friend refers is known to me, and I too have spoken to the father of the young man in Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. That question. I totally endorse what my right hon. Friend was a rather long intervention and we have to be careful has said: the family’s plea was for help. They could see not to stray into areas that we do not really want to be what was happening and they really wanted help. It is discussing. incumbent on us in the House and those in the Department Mr Donaldson: I thank my hon. Friend for raising to ensure that that help is made available to families that case. I was going to allude to it, but I will say simply such as these; they deserve it. that it is important that post-traumatic stress disorder and medical conditions arising from military service are Mr Donaldson: I concur with my right hon. Friend’s given due weight and recognition when military courts comments. consider allegations made against soldiers. I know that In August this year, I wrote to the Minister for the this case is the subject of an appeal, so I will not go into Armed Forces, the right hon. Member for South the detail, save to say that we on these Benches wish Leicestershire (Mr Robathan) at the Ministry of Defence Sergeant Nightingale well in seeking to appeal against to raise this case. I understand that, owing to issues the decision made in his case. relating to data protection legislation, he was unable to The aftercare service provided to veterans of the respond in as much detail as he might have wished. His Ulster Defence Regiment and the Royal Irish Regiment advice was that James should makes an important contribution towards ensuring that “contact the welfare service at the Service Personnel and Veterans those who have served in Northern Ireland are provided Agency.” with the care and support they need. I hope that the He provided a helpline number for that service. He went Government will continue to fund and resource the on: service properly, because it is important. Indeed, I hope “I would also strongly encourage James to raise any medical that in time it can be expanded to include others. concerns…with his GP…James may also wish to consider contacting All that said, we on these Benches have a concern the charity Combat Stress”. about the implementation of the military covenant in I am sure that there is nothing wrong with that advice, Northern Ireland, and it is a concern expressed by but my point is that there should be someone in the others too. There are service personnel and veterans system who can get alongside people like James, who who are not getting the support they need in Northern are not in a position to make the appropriate judgment Ireland. I speak of Northern Ireland because I am not calls, and to help them and their families to get access to mandated to speak of other areas of the UK, but I am the level of care that they need. That advice was given sure that other right hon. and hon. Members might before James ended up in prison. 645 Military Covenant21 NOVEMBER 2012 Military Covenant 646

Returning to my remarks about the aftercare service, to include not only veterans living in Northern Ireland I believe that that model could be expanded. As a but serving members of the armed forces who live in starting point, I would like to see it expanded in Northern Northern Ireland and, for whatever reason, may require Ireland to incorporate those service personnel and veterans treatment or access to other services for themselves or who continue to serve in our armed forces, whether in their families. the Royal Irish Regiment, the Irish Guards or any other armed forces unit, and who reside in Northern Ireland. Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): I have received two Why should Northern Ireland get such special treatment? letters from former southern Irish soldiers who served We should do so because we have a special problem in the British Army asking that they be given the same when it comes to the implementation of the military rights under the military covenant as their compatriots covenant. living within the United Kingdom. I think that is a That special problem is section 75 of the Northern good idea; it should come almost as part of the package. Ireland Act 1998—the equality legislation that formed I entirely endorse what my right hon. Friend says. a key element of the Belfast agreement. The section places a statutory duty on public authorities to promote Mr Donaldson: I thank my hon. Friend. We both equality when carrying out their functions in relation to serve on the Defence Committee. I have great respect Northern Ireland. Unfortunately, officials in various for his knowledge and understanding of the armed Government Departments in Northern Ireland who forces—not least because of the time he served in might be able to offer support to veterans and service Northern Ireland. I know he is due to come back to the personnel say that they are unable to give any form of Province in the near future; we will welcome him very preferential treatment. warmly indeed. Let us bear it in mind that the military covenant I have suggested that the Northern Ireland aftercare requires only that action should be taken to ensure that service should be expanded to provide support to all a veteran or a member of the armed forces should face veterans living in Northern Ireland and in the Republic “no disadvantage” as a result of serving or having of Ireland who have served with our armed forces and served in the armed forces. In other words, they should to the service personnel who reside in Northern Ireland be placed in the position in which they would have been, and whose families are based there at present. had they remained a civilian. Unfortunately, however, Another way of addressing the problem of section 75 section 75 is being used in a way that can prevent full of the Northern Ireland Act and the impediment it implementation of the military covenant in Northern provides to the implementation of the military covenant Ireland. We have a problem, but there are a number of in the part of the United Kingdom that I represent is to ways in which that problem could be overcome. consider legislation to grant an exemption to any action In a submission to the Defence Committee of this taken under section 75 by a Government Department in House, of which I have the good fortune to be a Northern Ireland pursuant to the implementation of member, it was made clear by the current Northern the military covenant. We will want to discuss that Ireland Minister for Health, Social Services and Public further with the Ministry of Defence and the Northern Safety, Edwin Poots, that there was a problem. Paragraph 36 Ireland Office. We believe it is important that no obstacle of the Defence Committee report, “The Armed Forces should be put in the way of implementing the military Covenant in Action? Part 1: Military Casualties”, states: covenant. I know that when section 75 was implemented “The provisions of section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act it was never intended to have such a consequence—but 1998 prevents the Department of Health, Social Services and it does, so we need to fix the problem. Public Safety (DHSSPS) and the Health and Social Care (HSC) sector in Northern Ireland in providing war veterans with priority I know, too, that the Minister, in recent comments to over other individuals with respect to healthcare treatment.” the Welsh Affairs Committee highlighted the particular challenge in Northern Ireland of implementing the This is recognised as a problem, as far as the implementation community covenant. Some local authorities in Northern of the military covenant in Northern Ireland is concerned. Ireland are controlled by Sinn Fein. Unfortunately, too, The “Report of the Task Force on the Military Covenant” there seems to be some reticence on the part of the of September 2010 stated that “Service personnel” based SDLP when it comes to implementation of the military in Northern Ireland covenant. As hon. Members have said, let us hope that “are disadvantaged more than their contemporaries elsewhere…For that is loosening up and that people are now beginning example, Service families in the province are prevented from to recognise the fact that, ultimately, we are talking identifying themselves as such due to the security situation. This can cause difficulties for partners in explaining their career history about human beings. We are talking about men and to prospective employers and for Service children in obtaining the women who need help and support, and it should not necessary support in schools, among other issues.” matter that they wear the uniform of this country. The report, in making some recommendations, states: When they need that support, it should be given to them. I should like some Northern Ireland Members to “One possibility currently under consideration is to extend” adopt a slightly more humanitarian approach to the the Northern Ireland aftercare service issue. “to cover all veterans based in Northern Ireland and the Republic As the Minister pointed out when he gave evidence to of Ireland”. the Welsh Affairs Committee on 30 October, some local We Democratic Unionist Members would be happy to authorities in Northern Ireland seem reluctant to support see veterans of the UK armed forces who reside in the the full implementation of the covenant. We shall want Republic of Ireland covered by the aftercare service, so to discuss with the Government ways in which community that they get the help they need when they need it. I covenants can be implemented throughout Northern hope the Minister will give careful consideration to the Ireland without being impeded by certain elements in proposition that the aftercare service should be extended local government. 647 Military Covenant21 NOVEMBER 2012 Military Covenant 648

[Mr Donaldson] Her Majesty’s Government have a duty to support the armed forces and the veterans who have served this I also think that there is a great need for some kind of country so well, and we support them in pursuing the respite facility for the armed forces in Northern Ireland. work that they are undertaking in relation to the military At present, a veteran or current member of the armed covenant. No political obstacle and no political party forces living in Northern Ireland who is suffering from should get in the way of full implementation of the post-traumatic stress disorder and needs recuperation covenant in every region of the United Kingdom, including must go to Hollybush House in Scotland. I should like Northern Ireland. I commend the motion to the House. the Government to work with the military charities, the Reserve Forces and Cadets Association, and other Mr Speaker: I now have to announce the result of the stakeholders in Northern Ireland to find a way of deferred Division on the question relating to the draft resourcing a respite centre there. Benefit Cap (Housing Benefit) Regulations 2012. The Ayes were 283, and the Noes were 203, so the Ayes Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind): May I suggest have it. that a respite centre in Northern Ireland might not [The Division list is published at the end of today’s always be a suitable alternative to Hollybush House? debates.] Some members of the Army might feel a certain sensitivity about receiving respite care in Northern Ireland. I was 5.5 pm extremely concerned to learn from some of my constituents who are retired servicemen that their opportunities to The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Mr Mark benefit from recuperation and help at Hollybush House Francois): I greatly welcome the opportunity to open have been reduced because resources are not going into this important debate on behalf of Her Majesty’s that facility. I should be hugely grateful to the right hon. Government. It is a particular pleasure to respond to Gentleman if he would call for increased resources for the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson). Hollybush House as well. As he knows, I have taken an interest in Northern Ireland matters down the years. In fact, some years ago Mr Donaldson: I can only echo what the hon. Lady I visited Northern Ireland as his guest. We are debating has said. I agree that there should be adequate resources a serious subject, but I hope the right hon. Gentleman not just for a proposed facility for Northern Ireland, will not mind my telling the House that I also bumped but for other facilities for veterans and members of the into him in 2009, when I was in Northern Ireland Northern Ireland armed forces. I take her point that not during the European elections. We were each separately all of them would want to receive their respite care in with our respective campaign teams when we came Northern Ireland itself. around the same corner. As politicians do on these occasions, we exchanged some banter, and one of the Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The week before right hon. Gentleman’s fellow campaigners described last, I had an opportunity to meet a gentleman from me as a “communist.” I have been called a number of Help for Heroes, a charity of which every Member things down the years, but that was a personal first for present will be aware. When I mentioned this very issue me. I have happy memories of that trip, and I was to him, he said that although the organisation currently determined when I saw this debate coming up to get made no such provision specifically for Northern Ireland, that quote into Hansard. it was seeking to do so, and I hope that that will be Let me begin by saying that we greatly value the possible in the near future. contribution that all our armed forces make, and in particular that made by the Irish regiments over the Mr Donaldson: I thank my hon. Friend for that years. The right hon. Gentleman and some of his colleagues information. It is worth noting that the people of Northern rightly touched on that. As evidence of this contribution, Ireland are very generous when it comes to military one statistic stands out. Some 173 Victoria Crosses have charities. Year on year, Northern Ireland consistently been awarded to members of the armed forces who gives more to the poppy appeal than any other region of were Irish. That is more than one in eight of all such the United Kingdom, and Help for Heroes is well awards, including the first ever Victoria Cross, which supported there. We receive a share of that, and we do was awarded to Charles Lucas from Scarva—in the not in any way criticise any of the military charities. constituency of the hon. Member for Upper Bann However, it would be good to see those charities unite (David Simpson)—which he earned while serving as a with the Government, the RFCA and others in considering mate on HMS Hecla in 1854. Following a swift promotion what enhanced facilities we might provide in Northern to captain, Charles Lucas eventually retired at the rank Ireland. That would constitute recognition of the generosity of rear-admiral. So that is a not a bad start for the VC. of the people there who support them. Continuing this naval theme, I should like to mention I said earlier that we would meet Ministers to pursue HMS Caroline, about which there has been good news the issues that I have raised. We have already met the following our decision to gift the vessel to the National Minister for the Armed Forces, the right hon. Member Museum of the Royal Navy. It has agreed to keep the for South Leicestershire (Mr Robathan), and we should vessel in Belfast, where it has been berthed since 1924. be happy to meet the Minister of State and his colleagues in the Northern Ireland Office as well. Thanks to my Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) hon. Friend the Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), (Con): HMS Caroline was built in the Devonport dockyard we have secured a meeting with the Prime Minister early and it is the last surviving ship from the battle of in December, when we will discuss with him matters Jutland, at which my grandfather was a gunnery officer relating to the implementation of the military covenant on HMS Valiant. This is incredibly good news, therefore, in Northern Ireland. and I will make sure everybody in Plymouth rejoices. 649 Military Covenant21 NOVEMBER 2012 Military Covenant 650

Mr Francois: I pay tribute to my hon. Friend’s undertake to look at his suggestion as to whether that grandfather and his service in that epic battle, and I pay service could be extended to other members of the tribute to my hon. Friend for being so fleet of foot with armed forces in Northern Ireland, but I must enter the his intervention. obvious caveat that that is subject to resource constraints. As my hon. Friend has taken a close interest in So we will look at that, but standing at the Dispatch this ship, he will know that HMS Caroline, a light Box this evening I cannot guarantee a positive outcome. cruiser, was built in 1914, measures 128 metres and was Such proud traditions of service continue right up to capable of a top speed of 28.5 knots. She is the last the present generation. I, too, should mention the sad surviving warship of the battle of Jutland and before death of Corporal Channing Day, who grew up in decommissioning was the second oldest ship in the Northern Ireland and joined the Army in 2005. Corporal Royal Navy. Her parts are 85% original—which is more Day, who served with 3 Medical Regiment, died alongside than can be said for some Members of this House—and Corporal David O’Connor, of 40 Commando, after she is the only vessel in the world from the time of the being injured on patrol in Helmand province on Wednesday great war still to have its original engines. A recent 24 October. The Minister of State, Northern Ireland National Heritage Memorial Fund grant of £1 million, Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead supplemented by £100,000 from the Northern Ireland (Mike Penning) had the privilege of attending her funeral Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, will service, which was said to have been the largest that the enable urgent repairs to be carried out on the vessel. We small church had seen in some 400 years. I pay tribute very much hope that she will be open to paying visitors to Corporal Day and Corporal O’Connor this evening, by the centenary of the battle of Jutland in 2016 and, and in doing so I echo a number of the tributes that together with the Titanic centre, will be a focus for have been paid by the right hon. Gentleman and his tourism around Belfast’s great maritime history. colleagues tonight. In terms of current operations, I should also like to Mr Dodds: The Minister mentioned his previous mention the personnel of 204 field hospital, who are visits to Northern Ireland. He will be permanently and shortly about to deploy from Northern Ireland to for ever welcome in Northern Ireland as a result of the Afghanistan to serve as part of the role 3 hospital at good news about HMS Caroline—the Prime Minister Camp Bastion and to provide other medical services to announced it but the Minister followed up recently. troops in theatre. I recently had the privilege of visiting This has been an excellent example of working together Camp Bastion and the hospital, and I laid a wreath to between Whitehall, the Northern Ireland Executive and commemorate those who had fallen in operations in my colleague Arlene Foster, Belfast city council and the Afghanistan. Friends of HMS Caroline. This fantastic news has been I should now like to turn directly to the armed forces warmly welcomed throughout Belfast and Northern covenant. As the House knows, its key principles are Ireland, and we say well done to the Government. enshrined in law in the Armed Forces Act 2011. I am proud to say that the Government published the covenant Mr Francois: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for in May 2011. In essence, its principles are: that those his kind words. I have to report to the House that there who serve in the armed forces, whether regular or has been a leak, because my speech says, “This has reserve, and those who have served in the past, and their been an excellent example of practical co-operation families should face no disadvantage compared with between the Ministry of Defence, the national museum other citizens in the provision of public and commercial of the Royal Navy and the Northern Ireland Executive.” services; and that special consideration is appropriate in He also rightly mentioned the friends group. In all some cases, especially for those who have given most, seriousness, this is one where everybody got it right. It is such as the injured and the bereaved. The covenant proper and appropriate that HMS Caroline remains in extends to the armed forces community, which is defined Belfast, and I hope to be able to visit her at some point as serving personnel, including members of the reserve in the near future. So I thank the right hon. Gentleman forces; veterans; and their families. I thank the right for his kind words and the spirit in which they are hon. Gentleman for his generous tribute to the reserves offered. as well as to the regulars. In more recent times, the contribution of those who served alongside the Army in the former Royal Ulster John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): Will the Minister take Constabulary has also been remembered, most notably time to consider the interaction between the MOD and through the awarding of the George Cross to the RUC. the Department for Work and Pensions on benefit I also pay tribute today to the work of the Royal Ulster payments and armed forces compensation scheme Constabulary George Cross Foundation and the Northern payments? The compensation scheme payments invalidate Ireland Police Fund, which look after former members claimants’ eligibility for some DWP payments, which of the Royal Ulster Constabulary and current members seems very wrong. Special consideration should be given of the Police Service of Northern Ireland so well. In the in such circumstances. same vein, I should like to pay tribute to the veterans of the Royal Irish Regiment and its home service battalions Mr Francois: I am aware of the issue and pay tribute and the Ulster Defence Regiment. It is for them that the to my hon. Friend for his persistence on these and bespoke Royal Irish aftercare service, to which the right related matters. We had an Adjournment debate recently hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) rightly on a parallel issue, although not exactly the same one. I paid tribute, is in operation. Funded by the Ministry of believe that we are doing what we can to try to solve the Defence, that important organisation has supported a problem, but as it is quite technical, as he knows, if he client population of up to 63,000 veterans in the delivery wants to write to me on the specific points I would be of psychiatry, physiotherapy and welfare casework. I will happy to look into them and get back to him. 651 Military Covenant21 NOVEMBER 2012 Military Covenant 652

[Mr Francois] be published before Christmas and will set out in more detail what the Government are doing to deliver in the In common with other legislation, the provisions of key areas that the covenant covers. the 2011 Act extend to Northern Ireland in the same I now want to speak about extending the armed way as they apply to all other parts of the United forces covenant to Northern Ireland. Hon. and right Kingdom. Those principles are important because they hon. Members from Northern Ireland will be aware influence the formation of policy, but there are other that many of the main areas covered by the covenant, sides to the covenant, too. One of those is the community such as housing, health and education, all lie within the covenant, which seeks to bring together local authorities devolved field and that these services are provided by and other local organisations with members of the Northern Ireland Departments, which are answerable armed forces community who live and serve in the area to Northern Ireland Ministers in the Executive, not all for which they are responsible. To date, more than of whom currently support this agenda, as the right 200 local authorities across the United Kingdom have hon. Member for Lagan Valley intimated. signed a community covenant. I am proud to say that in Essex the other day, I signed that covenant on behalf of Northern Ireland Departments and other public the Government in my own county, and some 13 local authorities also need to give due regard to the statutory authorities signed one after the other. obligations placed on them by section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act to promote equality of opportunity in We are clear that by forging such relationships the respect of all the functions they perform and the services community covenant is starting to have a positive impact they provide. Herein, as it were, lies the dilemma. It is on the lives of the armed forces community and on the not for Westminster to tell Stormont what it must do in wider community. For example, in Gateshead the council respect of the covenant—it is for Northern Ireland is making arrangements, among many other measures, Executive Ministers to debate and negotiate and agree to explore opportunities for serving personnel and veterans how the armed forces covenant should apply in Northern to access leisure facilities to support their overall health Ireland to the extent permitted by law. and well-being needs, including their mental health needs. There are some who say that section 75 is a hindrance and should be amended to somehow allow the covenant In Oxfordshire, the county council, by working with to be applied. Of course we want to see the armed the NHS and 145 (South) Brigade, has been able to help forces covenant principles applied right across the United resolve problems of access to GPs and dentists for the Kingdom. However, if the Northern Ireland Executive families of serving personnel. Dental services have also decides not to proceed with the covenant, that does not been extended in some areas to address a shortfall and justify amending section 75, which is one of the cornerstones the referral process for primary care services has been in the architecture of the Belfast agreement that was made easier. endorsed in referendums in both Northern Ireland and Also in Oxfordshire, the local authority has arranged the Republic. for school places to be allocated to service families in I think it is fair to say that Northern Ireland has advance of the family’s actual move, based on a letter made great progress since the dark days of the troubles. from the relevant unit. That has been a long-standing This month we saw the Taoiseach lay a wreath at the problem when military units move from one location to war memorial in Enniskillen following on from the another, but I understand that the Department for historic wreath layings—both at the garden of remembrance Education is now encouraging other local authorities to in Dublin and at the Irish war memorial at Islandbridge—by take a similar approach to try to alleviate the difficulty. Her Majesty the Queen during her highly successful In the past, members of the armed forces could also state visit last year. That, of course, built on the historic be pushed towards the bottom of local housing waiting joint unveiling in 1998 by Her Majesty and the President lists, as the need to move from base to base often meant of Ireland of the Messines peace tower on the site of the they could not prove a local connection to the area in battle of Messines Ridge, to remember the Irish dead of which they wanted to live, but, thanks again to the the first world war—also mentioned earlier this evening— armed forces covenant, many local councils will now and to inaugurate the Island of Ireland peace park. ensure that due consideration is given to service families so that they are not at a disadvantage when applying for Mr Donaldson: I understand the point that the Minister a council home. That extends to serving people, families is making. However, the Northern Ireland Executive and, importantly, veterans. has not decided that it should not proceed with the One of the chief benefits of the community covenant military covenant and Ministers in their Departments is quite simply that people are now talking to one are free to proceed with implementation. It is just that another in a way that they never did before. To some the equality provisions in section 75 sometimes present degree, we are doing that in the House this evening. an obstacle to that. The Northern Ireland Act cannot Local authorities, which deliver many of the vital services be amended by the Northern Ireland Assembly; that is a at ground level, are being made aware of the needs of matter for this House. That is why we want to discuss the armed forces community, which they might not have with the Government how we can overcome that obstacle. considered fully in the past. At the same time, it is fair to say that service personnel and their families are Mr Francois: I think what the right hon. Gentleman becoming increasingly aware of what life is like beyond has said is very reasonable. I hope that some of the acts the wire and how they can help their local communities. of remembrance that I was referring to a few minutes As the House knows, the 2011 Act also places an ago will inspire those in the Northern Ireland Executive obligation on the Secretary of State for Defence to to work together to find a way forward to apply the report annually to Parliament on the state of the armed covenant principles in a practical manner, and I hear forces covenant. The first of these statutory reports will what the right hon. Gentleman has said about their 653 Military Covenant21 NOVEMBER 2012 Military Covenant 654 only being able to do so much. I think that that is their home. Children under 10 are expected to share a something we could all discuss when we meet the Prime room, and children up to 16 are expected to share a Minister next month. If, in that time, the right hon. room with a same-sex sibling, so a family of four living Gentleman can explore what could be done by the in a three-bedroom house could still be charged an extra Northern Ireland Executive, I believe that would materially £44 a month even if there are no unoccupied bedrooms. inform that discussion. Then we need to see where we Hundreds of local families will be affected and I could can go from there. I will leave it to the Minister of State talk at length about them, but that is for another time. to say whether there is any more that he can add to that One of the many people to contact me is Alison when he winds up at the end of the debate, but I hope Huggan from Coulby Newham in Middlesbrough. She that I am replying to the right hon. Gentleman in the has been a tenant of the same housing association for spirit in which he intervened on me. nearly two decades. Why is that relevant to today’s My hon. Friend the Minister of State has invited me debate? Alison single-handedly brought up her twin to visit Northern Ireland. I have accepted his invitation boys in her three-bedroom house, which is owned by a to visit in the new year, to see for myself how the local housing association, and both, now 18, are serving covenant operates in practice and whether there are any as soldiers in the Army. Alison said: practical difficulties. I hope that it will also be possible for me to meet personnel from 38 Brigade. I think that, “The Government has made no concessions and have totally after the right hon. Gentleman’s comments, I am now disregarded personal circumstances. If the Government forces honour-bound to visit a cadet unit as well; and as my these changes, when my sons return home after defending our country and serving its people, they will not have a bed to sleep in own father served in the Royal Navy, perhaps I might be at their family home. I have spoken to my housing officer about able to squeeze in a visit to HMS Caroline, too. moving to a smaller one-bedroom property, only to be told that In conclusion, we appreciate the complex history of they do not have enough one-bedroom properties to meet the Northern Ireland, and the sensitivities in this area, but need of everyone.” we also appreciate the valuable service in our armed The problem Alison is facing is shared by people right forces given to the Crown by so many from Northern across my constituency, Teesside and the wider country, Ireland—and indeed the whole of the island of Ireland— and people from all over the East Cleveland area have over many generations. It is important that we remember contacted me about the tax. that service, and that we do our best for those who have served with such distinction—and for their families— What is also highly disappointing is the state of because they have helped to keep us free. affairs regarding under-25s losing their entitlement to housing benefit. The Government recently decided to 5.24 pm disband the 2nd Battalion The Yorkshire Regiment, the Green Howards, with the proviso that cap badge, regimental Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East heritage and legacy be maintained, with the strong Cleveland) (Lab): The military covenant has to be lauded likelihood of their being adopted for the Territorial as a fantastic aim and programme put in place by this Army battalion of the Yorkshire Regiment. Again, that Government, with cross-party support. It is a collective is a separate matter and cannot be debated today, but demonstration of the desire of representatives here and the issue of redundant troops—the real human cost—has the people we represent to do far more for our deserving yet to be addressed in relation to housing benefit. armed forces personnel. From a personal perspective, I know why a military covenant is needed: my grandfather A number of parents, who want to remain anonymous fought for four years in the trenches of Flanders; my for the sake of their sons and daughters serving in the now 87-year-old father fought in the Combined Operation armed forces, have raised concerns about how the housing Pilotage Parties; and my community was home to Stan benefit changes will affect personnel who leave the Hollis, a company sergeant major in the Green Howards armed forces under the age of 25, with very little in the who was the only man to receive a Victoria Cross for way of savings, and who are looking for housing and action on D-day. The people in my area, like those in benefits after April 2013. They are not from wealthy many others in the United Kingdom, share those values. families and do not have the luxury of the bank of Our villages, communities, towns and cities buy in to mum and dad to help with a deposit—if, indeed, they the need for the military covenant, and the great partnership have a job to go to that will enable them to maintain working by Government and local authority bodies and future payments. Unemployment in my constituency is the voluntary armed forces charities to achieve its aims always high. has been excellent, but today I want to draw the As yet, the status of soon-to-be-former armed forces Government’s attention to anomalies that will undoubtedly personnel aged under 25 in relation to housing benefit is affect members of the armed forces to their detriment, still in question, but it has to be said that on Teesside—an and, in some cases, take standards backwards for serving area with a high level of local young people serving in and former armed forces personnel and their families. the armed forces juxtaposed with some of the highest In April 2013, thousands of families will have their unemployment and, in particular, youth unemployment housing benefit reduced by up to £80 a month because in the country, and where some of the poorest wards in of the new bedroom tax. When I am out in my constituency, the country are to be found—we find it incredibly meeting residents and asking them about their concerns, difficult to accept that recently former armed forces that issue is becoming more prevalent. The coalition personnel aged under 25 will not have access to housing Government have said that persons classed as “of working benefit. That is an obvious anomaly and flies in the face age” who have an empty bedroom in their house will of the guarantees stipulated in the military covenant lose 14% of the rent value, and 25% if there are two or regarding “special considerations”. I dearly hope that more spare bedrooms. As a result, some people will the Minister will take this issue on board and quickly have to find more than £1,000 extra a year just to stay in resolve it. 655 Military Covenant21 NOVEMBER 2012 Military Covenant 656

5.29 pm their comrades, if at all possible. With respect, I say to the Minister that if anything can be done for those Patrick Mercer (Newark) (Con): It is a pleasure to brave men and women, I would be most grateful. I follow the hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and utterly endorse my right hon. Friend’s comments. East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop), who has reminded me of something that happened eight or nine years ago I also admire the conduct of Her Majesty the Queen. when I was fishing in Robin Hood’s bay with my son, I admire it in every way, but particularly admired it who was about 12 at the time. We were surrounded by a during her recent visit to the Republic and what she did gang of lads who were watching us and what we were there. She laid wreaths not just for our own men who doing. I turned to them and said, “I imagine you’re fell as a result of the difficulties in the Republic, but for joining the Army, aren’t you?” They said, “Not just those many men who fought for His Majesty at the that, but the Green Howards.” It is a wonderful regiment time, as exemplified by the Royal Dublin Fusiliers memorial with wonderful recruits. What a curious decision to in Dublin, which is hideously known as “traitors gate” disband it. by some and admired by others. Her Majesty showed I pay tribute to the comments made by my right hon. no prejudice in the way that she respected those dead. I Friend the Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) hope that the Taoiseach will accept my invitation, at and to the service of Ulstermen and, indeed, men and some stage, to visit the graves of the Sherwood Forester women from the Republic in the armed forces. With soldiers, from the Sherwood Forester Brigade, who were your indulgence, Mr Speaker, I should like to add some killed in Dublin in 1916 and who now rest in their native comments of my own about the application of the soil of Nottinghamshire. I do not know what the reaction military covenant in my own constituency of Newark. will be; so far, it has not been positive, but in the future I hope it will be. I will not bore the House, but I spent a lot of time in Northern Ireland. I was a fighting soldier and spent my Moving on to the application of the military covenant time in difficult areas. We were not thanked by the in my constituency, I hope that I can suggest one or two individuals there—on the contrary, they shot at us—but things that the Minister might find useful. In 2007, a when we were outside of those areas, I was struck by young man, Lance Corporal Davis of 1st Battalion the people of Ulster’s warmth and their admiration for Grenadier Guards, lost a leg on operations in Afghanistan. and understanding of the military culture. That is not I knew his family slightly, but did not know him at all. I unique, but it is rare in England. I was terribly taken went to see him at hospital in Selly Oak. We thought with it. I think that, given the pressures of operations that he was going to die. Two of his colleagues in the such as those that took place in Iraq and those that team with which he was patrolling did die. Luckily, continue on the Pakistan border in Afghanistan, we Lance Corporal Davis recovered. forget today the sorts of pressures that not just my That presented a problem in Newark, however. His colleagues in the regular Army, but Territorial soldiers father was not only having to take two children to and officers and men in the Ulster Defence Regiment, school, but having to hold down his job as a lorry driver the Royal Irish Regiment, the Royal Ulster Constabulary while his wife lived in Birmingham with their dangerously reserves, the RUC and now the Police Service of Northern ill son, whom they thought was going to die. The road Ireland have faced and continue to face on a day-to-day haulage company for which Mr Davis worked—which basis. will remain nameless—was desperately unsympathetic Clearly, war is difficult. War is hell. It was all very to him. He was told that he had used his holiday and well for a regular soldier such as I to have carried out a his leave, that he had no further opportunity to take six-month or two-year tour in Northern Ireland and to time off work and that the mere loss of his son’s leg was then go home to sunny England, and it is all very well to no excuse. serve in Afghanistan today—which is clearly immeasurably In one of the very few moments as a Member of worse than anything I experienced—but we did not Parliament when I have known that I was 100% right have to face the same sorts of pressures as these brave and have operated in a completely uncompromising men and women who often lived cheek by jowl with fashion, I rang the managing director of the firm and individuals who were sympathetic to our enemies and asked whether he would like some publicity. He said who were, therefore, enemies themselves. It was hellishly that he would love some. I asked whether he would like difficult for those individuals. It imposed a toll and it to be on the front of every national daily the following continues to impose a toll, as the previous debate showed, day. He said that he would love to be. I said, “Well, not on those who live in dangerous and difficult circumstances. for the reasons that I am about to outline.” It worked a The toll is not necessarily a physical one, but it is treat. Mr Davis was helped and he got his time off. He certainly a mental one. was able to look after not only his other children but his Let us therefore make sure that the brave men and hero son. women who have served the Crown in Northern Ireland That case led us to establish the Newark Patriotic are looked after properly when their service finishes, Fund. In the few years since, we have dealt with more and I mean not just soldiers, sailors and airmen, but than 12 amputees and a number of men and women police officers, prison officers and the whole gamut of who have presented—I think that is the word—with all those who are proud to wear the Crown on their uniforms. sorts of mental difficulties. The earliest case with which I am amazed and dismayed by my right hon. Friend’s we are dealing is a survivor from the Korean war. I am comments that respite care cannot—I think I am right not here just to plug the Newark Patriotic Fund, although in saying this—be carried out in Northern Ireland at the I will mention Mrs Susan Gray and Mrs Karen Grayson, moment. That is a terribly important point. The Minister, who work tirelessly for it. I commend what it does to who understands military affairs extremely well, knows other Members. It raises large sums of money, principally that individuals who have served wish to recover among to help the families. 657 Military Covenant21 NOVEMBER 2012 Military Covenant 658

There is a gap in the way that the Government Patrick Mercer: I give way with pleasure to the hon. honour the military covenant. It is a gap not of commission Gentleman. but of omission, and the situation is evolving. Some useful precedents were set after the first and second Mr Jones: I am listening carefully to the hon. Gentleman. world wars in how we deal with such men. I hope that I looked at this issue when I was the Minister responsible we will not have many more people with traumatic for veterans, and may I suggest that screening at the injuries coming back to the Newark constituency, but point that someone leaves the forces is not the answer? we might have. However, we will definitely have a wave We must ensure that individuals are flagged up so that of mental illness that presents itself over the next decade GPs know they are veterans—the Labour party made a or so. We have to look after those men—they are mainly commitment to that, although I am not sure whether men, although there are one or two women. the Government have followed it through—and improve I have a suggestion for the Minister, although I their access to mental health services. A lot of the appreciate that it would involve expense. I believe that problems that the hon. Gentleman mentions do not part of the military covenant should be that every present until many years later and would not be picked soldier, sailor and airman, whether regular, reservist, up. I would prefer the money to go to help people at a territorial or whatever they are called in the future, later, rather than earlier, stage. should be offered medical screening on discharge. The medical services could advise on what the interval should Patrick Mercer: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s be, but I would have thought that it should be about intervention but I am obviously not making myself every three years. The individual should be looked at clear because that is exactly my point. There will be and given a chance to talk. Most people who are awful problems with this. It was difficult enough for us discharged are fit, but this would be an extremely useful catch up six months later with one regular soldier who way to monitor those who are concealing injuries, those had been discharged, and ask him to re-enlist in the who have injuries they do not know about and those Territorial Army because he had disappeared into the who are in the developing stages of mental illness. It system. I understand that this matter is not simple. Care would not be cheap or easy to administer, but it might must be provided in five, 10 or 15 years’ time and just prevent problems that could be nipped in the bud. offered to everyone, as the hon. Gentleman said, not just those who leave the forces having identified a problem. To give an example, I was seen by a doctor in Lincoln about five years ago because of the injuries that I Mr Jones: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. This received in Northern Ireland. She said that I not only could be quite easy but I was frustrated with GPs who had the problems with my wounds, but extensive frostbite wanted to charge for putting an indicator on the QOF—the in my right foot. She said that unless that was put right, quality and outcomes framework. That is where money I would develop a problem in the future. That is a should be spent so that if people present after they have simple illustration, but unless I had seen that doctor I left the armed services, GPs will at least know that they would not have known about it. If no one had said to have served in the forces. I am not sure whether the me, “Look Colonel Mercer, behave yourself. Own up to Minister has made any progress on that, but it is an what has happened and we can help you.”, life would important point and would be a better way to spend have been more difficult for me. money.

John Glen: Given my hon. Friend’s experience, is this Patrick Mercer: Absolutely. more about somebody’s willingness to engage and open up about difficult mental health issues than the availability Mr Francois rose— of screening and services? A physical injury is one thing, but is the real issue the barrier of people not Patrick Mercer: I will, of course, give way to the wanting to own up to the fact that there might be a Minister. problem? Mr Francois: I have not intervened purely to mention Patrick Mercer: I am grateful for that helpful intervention. the Newark Patriotic Front—oh look, I appear to have My hon. Friend is absolutely right and he will probably done it. [HON.MEMBERS: “ Fund!”] Forgive me—fund. face many cases in his constituency that are similar to With regard to the question from the hon. Member for those in Newark. North Durham (Mr Jones), the Government are continuing to look at this issue but there is a difficulty concerning In another plug for the Newark Patriotic Fund—forgive patient consent—I am sure my hon. Friend the Member me, Mr Speaker—one thing we find is that those who for Newark (Patrick Mercer) with his considerable military are without an arm or leg have probably come to terms experience will understand that. The intention in principle with that. The groundswell of support and popularity—I is to evolve a system—we are working on it now—so do not quite use the word “glamour”, but I hope the that when an individual leaves the armed forces and House will understand what I mean—helps those registers with a GP, that GP will be informed that the individuals to come to terms with their situation. Those person is a veteran. If the veteran then begins to present who are nursing, hiding or developing mental health symptoms, including mental symptoms, which might be problems find that much more difficult to talk about, an effect of their service, the GP will hopefully have but we find at our so-called drop-in centre that people been informed that the person was a veteran when they are able and willing to talk in the company of other moved across. brave men and women who are empathetic and sympathetic. We already have TRiM—trauma risk management—in which we invite men or women in a unit to look out for Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab) rose— each other. If one of them starts to show signs of 659 Military Covenant21 NOVEMBER 2012 Military Covenant 660

[Mr Francois] to understand. I entirely endorse his point that the regimental structure was as much charitable as tactical, mental problems, the others do not shop them, as it but there we are. were, but encourage them to speak to higher command We have heard about the contribution of people from to get help. Northern Ireland, which I respect and honour. I would point out that Nottinghamshire—man for man—took Patrick Mercer: As the Minister, with his military more casualties proportionately than any other county experience, will know, those systems have been in place in Great Britain in the first world war and won more informally for many years. I am not pretending that the Victoria Crosses. We should respect our veterans, whether measures will be simple, cheap or infallible, but if those they come from Fermanagh, Derby, Nottingham or who are discharged understand them, we stand a better London. We must give them exactly the deal they chance of spending to save. understood they would get when they enlisted. I hope some of my suggestions will be put into practice by the Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): The last three Minister. hon. Members to intervene have mentioned looking after the mental health of soldiers when they return, but 5.49 pm since 2009 American soldiers have been screened before Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): I going out. Their weaknesses and strengths are measured— congratulate the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley their strengths are recognised and their weaknesses are (Mr Donaldson) and his right hon. and hon. Friends on strengthened. When the troops return, they are given bringing forward this very important debate. I am pleased therapy, including mindfulness-based therapy, which is that we have some time to debate this issue. It is also a cheap and three times more effective than drugs in great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Newark treating depression and related conditions. (Patrick Mercer), who spoke with great authority from his experience of military life. Patrick Mercer: The hon. Gentleman is exactly right, The failure to provide adequately for the needs of and prompts me to share a very short anecdote. The last ex-service people stretches back well over a century, so I time I was in Afghanistan with the grenadier company shall not make any political points today one way or the of my old battalion, the company major told me that other. Kipling wrote of Tommy Atkins giving everything every single man in the company had used his weapon in service and returning to face virtually nothing in and killed or injured. I said, “Are they all right?” He return. David Lloyd George, in a momentous speech at said, “They’re fine, except for the company sniper. He’s the beginning of the last century, poignantly referred to killed more than 25 men now, and he’s the one man I ex-service men returning from war as “broken men”—they really worry about, because he enjoys it too much.” mostly were men, then—and deserving of special treatment That illustrates the point exactly—that is the sort of such as exemption from the payment of national insurance. thing with which we must cope in future. How much has changed in the intervening decades, I will not detain the House for much longer, but I and many conflicts later? The topic we are discussing should like to make one more suggestion to the Minister. today is the military covenant—the pledge to the armed My view is that how we looked after serving and discharged forces that we will continue to look after the welfare of personnel—it is now called the military covenant, but it veterans after they leave the service. It is evident that the was not called that at the time—was much better after majority of armed forces personnel adjust to civilian the first world war than after the second world war. I life normally after discharge. Despite this, a significant commend not only the various patriotic funds that were and—alas—growing minority of veterans experience set up, but the schemes in various large cities and acute social rupture when discharged from active service, towns—it was a different economic period—to set up becoming homeless, cut off from mainstream welfare taxi services specifically to be run by, mainly, limbless services and isolated. Unless they undertake further soldiers. Vehicles were bought and adapted for the men, training or are fortunate enough to have completed and areas where veterans taxis would run were specifically relevant training prior to joining the forces, it can be designated. The cities and towns included Nottingham, very difficult for veterans to enter further education Derby and Middlesbrough. I am not suggesting we and/or employment. replicate that scheme exactly, but other imaginative If a veteran falls into a downward spiral, it is likely things can be done to help those men and women to that he—and it is predominantly a male problem—will return physically and mentally to their place in society. fall foul of the criminal justice system. Abuse of alcohol We could look at that suggestion to everybody’s benefit. and drugs, and mental health problems, often act as catalysts. There is a lot of good work going on—it is not Bob Stewart: One problem with getting rid of regiments all downs—and next year, one of the main banks will and making the infantry and other parts of the Army announce a suite of financial services dedicated to smaller is that we are losing regimental headquarters. ex-service people. I am pleased and proud that I have Up till now, the regiment has been the one organisation persuaded the bank to do that. It will be rolled out in to keep a proper trace on soldiers until they die. Soldiers Wales first and, if successful, then throughout the UK. are looked after by regimental headquarters, and friends One of the problems of people who have been in the warn when there is a problem. It is very sad, but that is forces for a long time is that they understandably get one problem with losing our regimental headquarters. out of the normal money management routine that we all have to deal with every day. Patrick Mercer: I am grateful to my hon. and gallant I have campaigned for greater recognition of the Friend. How on earth can we talk about localism while welfare needs of veterans over the years and have we are disbanding local regiments? I find that difficult raised the issue in the House and elsewhere since 2008. 661 Military Covenant21 NOVEMBER 2012 Military Covenant 662

In 2010, I published a paper entitled “Support for Mr Llwyd: I have never said it is 25%: 10% is the Veterans”, which contained detailed recommendations highest figure that I have ever canvassed, so I am not for increasing the support available to veterans, in particular getting involved in a sterile figures argument. There are those who came into contact with the criminal justice other issues to discuss. system. I chair the veterans in the criminal justice As a matter of urgency, we need to have another look system all-party group, held under the auspices of the at those who are involved in the system. I became Justice Unions Parliamentary Group. The group comprises involved in this issue when I was working in courts in parliamentarians and representatives from criminal justice north Wales and Cheshire. I noticed that an increasing trade unions and charities, including the National number of those appearing for very serious offences Association of Probation Officers, the Association of professed to come from a military background. Thus, I Chief Police Officers, the Prison Officers Association, tabled some questions. At the time, in 2008, no information the Royal British Legion, SSAFA Forces Help and was held centrally. The shadow Minister says that a others. scoping exercise was thereafter undertaken—fine, I When our campaign began, very few were raising the accept that. issue, but I am glad to see that it has now become a core manifesto commitment for every party. The Armed Mr Jones: It was not a scoping exercise. Forces Act 2006 also enshrined the principles of the covenant in law. Much work has been done—and that is to the Government’s credit—but much remains to be Mr Llwyd: Well, an exercise to determine the figures done, and I await the annual report in the coming was then entered into by the Government. I accept that. weeks. Whatever the figure is, it is quite substantial—that must be common ground. As a matter of urgency, a thorough audit should be completed of the number of ex-service personnel who I honestly and sincerely believe that more resources are in our prison system. should be put into helping veterans with mental health problems. Many people who have served leave the forces Mr Kevan Jones: We did one. without any trauma whatever. However, at present, as I understand it, veterans do not undergo a compulsory mental health assessment prior to leaving the armed Mr Llwyd: I am not going to get involved in arguments forces, except for the more obvious cases that demand about figures with the hon. Gentleman. We have tried it. Because of that, it is difficult to calculate the prevalence that before—I do not accept his figures and he does not of mental health issues most commonly associated with accept mine. NAPO and various other organisations do veterans, among them post-traumatic stress disorder. accept my figures. PTSD is a convenient umbrella term, but it is just one complaint. The difficulty with it is that it can become Mr Jones: The right hon. Gentleman is like a broken evident within a couple of week or after 12 years. record. As Minister, I got all the data for all three services, in some cases going back to 1968. The Howard Mr Jones: If the right hon. Gentleman wants to get League report accepted those figures. I am sorry that the figures, he should read Simon Wessely’s very good they do not match up with some of the figures that he study, going back to the first Gulf war and before. It and others want to keep perpetuating, but I do not provides the figures for PTSD, which are between 3% know what else I could have done to get those figures or and 4%. It is a very good study that is internationally what the Minister could do now. recognised as a groundbreaking work. Mr Llwyd: I was an adviser to the Howard League report. The hon. Gentleman’s scoping exercise did not Mr Llwyd: That may or may not be the case, but in include women, reservists— the United States, for example, the authorities talk about 35%. There is a substantial problem and I hope that we are able to look not just at PTSD—that is just Mr Kevan Jones: That is not true. one thing—but traumatic brain injury and other conditions. We have yet to see the scale of the fall-out from the first Mr Llwyd: Well, that is what the then Minister told and second Iraq wars and from Afghanistan. However, the Howard League. It did not include reservists, those I think there is a tendency to focus on PTSD. There are under 21 or those who had served in Northern Ireland—that literally dozens of other mental health conditions that is what the Minister at the time told the inquiry. can affect personnel, including traumatic brain injury [Interruption.] That is the evidence that we were given and anxiety-related problems, such as obsessive compulsive and some of the conclusions we reached. disorder and depression. The idiosyncratic needs of the veteran community must be taken into account when Mr Jones: Is the right hon. Gentleman really suggesting providing funding for research and treatment. that to get the 25% figure that he often quotes— A paper recently produced by Dr Ian Palmer of the Medical Assessment Programme of King’s College London Mr Llwyd: No, I never quoted that. reported that, based on the findings of a clinic-based study on a self-selecting group of 150 veterans, veterans Mr Jones: Well, I think some of the right hon. involved with the NHS mental health service tended to Gentleman’s colleagues have. The figure was about 3% be middle aged, ex-army and male. That demographic or 4% of the prison population. Is he seriously suggesting picture reinforces the view that mental health problems that he could make another 23% by adding reservists can take years to develop—from the time of discharge to it? to up to 12 years later. 663 Military Covenant21 NOVEMBER 2012 Military Covenant 664

[Mr Llwyd] in law, which is important, but we need to go further and ensure not only that we talk about the covenant but I gave evidence to the Welsh Affairs Committee, and, that it is a means of delivery for those who need these as I understand it, so did the Minister. The impression vital services. was given that the problem of alcohol misuse was being I am pleased to have taken a brief part in this debate. addressed, and that it was less of a problem than it had There is good will among Members of all parties in the been. According to the report, however, 80% of those in House to increase awareness of the problems faced by this group had misused alcohol, and one quarter had veterans, and the issue has now become popular with encountered problems with the law. The barriers to the media. We know, for example, that there are thousands seeking help included pride, guilt, shame and remembrance of veterans charities doing fantastic work, but perhaps of lost colleagues. Obsessive compulsive symptoms were more could be done to link some of them together, to prevalent among many of those who reported problems provide specialist services in some corners and add to readjusting to civilian life, while those not in a stable the Government services being provided. relationship were less likely to seek help, reinforcing the view that support from loved ones is vital for returning Bob Stewart: My worry is that once the Afghanistan veterans. campaign has gone in a few years and when these Further research would have to be done, but the problems really start to present themselves, we will not results are telling. Most crucially, it is clear that psychological have the public support that we have now, and we will assessments should be made mandatory for all those probably not have the money to help that we have now. leaving the forces. The shadow Minister and the Minister Then it will become primarily a Government problem; talked about GPs flagging up patients who have done therefore, the Government have to understand that they military service, but I understand that there might be a must take responsibility for looking after these people problem with data protection. I do not know whether until the time they die. that is right, but it needs to be cleared up. The flagging Mr Llwyd: I agree entirely, but there has been a up is perfectly acceptable and a very good idea, but we problem historically. For example, I remember that need to address the data protection issue, so that we can there was a designated centre in north Wales dealing provide a seamless service. with PTSD that was run by a very experienced clinician called Dr Dafydd Alun Jones. I went to see the then Mr Francois: There is a problem with data protection Labour Minister at the MOD and asked whether he and patient consent, but we believe it can be overcome, could put in a good word to secure funding for people and work on that is taking place. to be treated there. He gave me a wry smile and said, “I I should declare an interest: King’s College London, sympathise with you, but unfortunately it’s a matter for to which hon. Members have referred several times, was the Health Department.” Some months later the Minister my alma mater. I did my MA in law studies there. It is was transferred, as Secretary of State, to the Department widely acknowledged that it has great expertise in the of Health, so I went to see him. I got the same wry smile field of service mental health, and if it gives the right and words of sympathy: “It’s not my problem, guv. hon. Gentleman even slight reassurance, let me say that Have a word with either the DWP or the Ministry of I am going there next week to meet Professor Simon Defence.” What that implies to me is that until very Wessely and others to learn as much about this as I can. recently this matter was never taken as seriously as it warrants. Mr Llwyd: I am extremely grateful to the Minister for that intervention, and I am pleased with his comments. Mr Kevan Jones indicated dissent. I know that a lot of work is being done, but I also know Mr Llwyd: The hon. Gentleman shakes his head. that a lot of work needs to be done, and I accept and That may be his view, but I am pleased that this matter appreciate his remarks in the tone they were given. is now being taken seriously. The Select Committee on We need to address the huge dependency on alcohol Welsh Affairs is now looking at it and the Welsh and other substances that many armed forces personnel Government are doing good work, as are our colleagues develop. Alcohol is frequently treated as a catalyst to and friends in Scotland—for example, in Edinburgh unwinding by those on leave, and it can be no coincidence there is a one-stop shop, which again could be a model that many veterans leave active service displaying an for all countries in the UK—so at long last stuff is overdependence on alcohol. Who am I to talk about happening. that? I have never seen the hell they have been through, I want to end on what might be a discordant note, by and one can understand why it occurs. Nevertheless, quoting from a letter I received a couple of weeks ago. counselling on substance misuse must be a vital part of It is from a gentleman who served in the armed forces decompression. who lives in Barry, in the Vale of Glamorgan, and he During passage of the Armed Forces Act 2011, I says: tabled amendments based on the recommendations of a “I spent much of my working life as a member of the RAF as parliamentary group on veterans in the criminal justice an aircraft engineer, completing over twenty years service. During system, as well as those made in the paper published in Operation Desert Storm in 1991, I suffered a spinal injury that 2010. I was unfortunately prevented from sitting on the eventually led to the RAF and I going our separate ways after a Bill Committee—the only time I have been unsuccessful medical discharge. Some months later the spinal damage worsened in applying for a Bill Committee position in my 20 years and led to my being hospitalised for an emergency operation to remove a damaged disc. However, due to a delay, much of my in Parliament. I am not sure what happened. I was able nervous system was wrecked, although I did manage to gain some to make a contribution on Second Reading and Report, mobility…The upshot of all the foregoing trauma was that my however, and progress has now been made. As I stated, mobility was curtailed due to nervous damage and continuous the principles of the military covenant are now enshrined pain. Over the past 17 years my condition has worsened due to 665 Military Covenant21 NOVEMBER 2012 Military Covenant 666 age, however I can just cope—or I could until recently, when I I welcome this opportunity to talk about the military received a letter from the DWP which informed me that I had to covenant. A number of things need to be done, and I go and play performing monkeys for ATOS. welcome the fact that the Government will be publishing The question is: ‘What the hell happened to the much trumpeted their first report before Christmas. The issues affect not Covenant between the Armed Forces and the Government?’ And only the regulars but the reservists. I want to say a little no it cannot just apply to the Army. From personal experience, about the reservists, because it is their families who end those on the other side give no heed to the colour of the uniform worn—they will try to kill you anyway. As I understand it the up bearing an awful lot of the brunt when their husbands Covenant promises to take care of those injured in the service of or partners—or even their wives—go abroad to serve this country. Seems from my point of view to be failing big on operations. I hope that we can have a debate about time—not a good thing for those lads and lasses putting their lives what we are trying to do for reservists’ families. on the line in Afghanistan. Has the MoD told them this fact yet? So what does the future hold for me and mine? Playing Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con): The performing monkeys for ATOS, whose operatives are, as I understand it, under orders to fail 90% of all those seen. So given that I have a families do not lack support when the reservists are 90% chance of failure, this will mean that I will lose the use of the away; the support received from the regiment is second Motability vehicle that is my only mode of transport, however, to none. It is when a reservist is demobilised and returns now being housebound, I’ll probably not have a house to live in, to civilian life that they feel the most isolated and in as the loss of income will put our mortgage in jeopardy. Even so, I need of support. When a regiment comes back from would launch an appeal against the ruling which, if the various theatre, the individual soldiers have the support mechanism stories I have heard are true, I will probably win. This has its draw of their comrades and the family of the regiment itself, backs as those that have won their hearings are then dragged back but the reservists go back to being civilians. They lack by ATOS to undergo the whole process again…as many as four times. Isn’t this illegal under the Disability and Equality Act?” having comrades around them who understand what they have been through and the readjustments that they That confirms what the hon. Member for Salisbury are having to make. (John Glen) was saying about the DWP, and about the need for extra care when dealing with ex-service personnel. The letter supports what has already been said. Oliver Colvile: My hon. Friend makes a fair point. We spend many months training these young men That is certainly the line from the Army, but those in the and women to the highest level to prepare them for Royal Navy—or, for that matter, the Royal Marines or active duty. Once deployed, they will often witness the the Royal Air Force—do not necessarily live on base in kind of horrors that few of us, myself included, could the same way, and therefore both regulars and reservists ever comprehend. The least we can do for them is to can feel isolated during that process. Those serving in spend a similar period decompressing them as they the Royal Navy and the Royal Marines do not normally approach their discharge, and to ensure that no veteran live on base. They are encouraged to buy their own is left to fend for himself or herself. As the Ministers homes. The Government need to look at how we can know, there is a time-honoured maxim in the armed encourage such people to get on to the property ladder. forces: “Leave no man behind.” Unless and until we can The reservist families need a significant amount of make the military covenant fully and positively deliver support. When I was on Woodbury Common last year the necessary services, however, that is precisely what on the armed forces parliamentary scheme, I came the Government will be doing. across a Royal Marine—I do not know whether he was a reservist, but I suspect he was—who lived in Aylesbury. He said that when he went home, he experienced some 6.10 pm real difficulties. He wanted to talk to his friends about Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) what had happened during his time in Afghanistan, but (Con): I congratulate the Democratic Unionist party on he found that it was not easy to do so. When he went having the foresight to secure this debate on the military back to his wife and said, “I have had an interesting covenant. It was perhaps sad that we were unable to time”, she said, “Don’t talk to me about what kind of discuss the matter immediately before Remembrance day you’ve had; I’ve ended up having to answer 300 e-mails.” Sunday, as it would have been particularly pertinent at Perhaps she was working for a Member of Parliament that time. The debate nevertheless gives me an opportunity and replying to constituents. He had been under mortar to talk about some of the issues that affect the military fire for seven or eight hours during the day and found it in my constituency. difficult to talk to her about that, so he went off to find I also want to thank the Minister of State, Ministry his mates, but they had not been through that experience of Defence, my right hon. Friend the Member for either, and they also had difficulty understanding what Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois) for his announcement he was talking about. He thus had to go and find his about HMS Caroline. That was brilliant news. I would fellow Royal Marines to talk to, as they understood his like to ask the DUP and the Executive in Northern experiences. Ireland to ensure that representatives from Devonport We need to ensure that we set up a chat room for are invited to see it in Belfast, because it started life in those reservist families to be able to talk to each other Devonport; that is where it was built. It was one of the while their husbands or family members are away. I very last ships to be built there, in 1914. much welcome the comments made about TRIM—trauma I pay tribute to those Northern Irish and Irish soldiers, risk management. We recently had a breakfast here with sailors and airmen who have served in our armed forces. the Royal Marines, and they talked enormously about I also want to pay tribute to those members of it. In Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport, we have signed 3 Commando Brigade who died during the troubles in the community covenant, too, which is working incredibly Northern Ireland. We need to recognise them. All too well. Last Friday, we talked quite extensively about how often that has not happened because people were more to ensure that people are looked after in respect of interested in what was happening in Iraq and Afghanistan. housing, for example. 667 Military Covenant21 NOVEMBER 2012 Military Covenant 668

[Oliver Colvile] Irishmen who served in the first world war. My great-

Mr Francois: I apologise for interrupting my hon. Friend, but to give all due credit to the Royal Marines, my understanding is that they initially helped to develop the TRIM programme. It was such a success within the brigade and its commandos that it was exported to the rest of the armed forces. It is quite right to pay tribute to the Royal Marines as basically they came up with the programme. Oliver Colvile: I suspect, if I may say so, that the programme is very good because the Royal Marines is a small unit able to deliver it, but there are many lessons to be learned. Finally, the Royal Navy in Plymouth and Devonport, with the help of the Prime Minister, is doing an enormous amount of work on dementia, because it understands the impact on a family when personnel are abroad. We have a lot to do, and I would be interested to know when we are going to have the debate. Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con): I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way, especially when he is close to finishing his speech. The issue of the particular needs of servicemen also relates to the provision of sheltered housing for homeless ex-servicemen. Will my hon. Friend reflect on whether we should follow the model, already pioneered in Catterick, of specialist provision for homeless ex-servicemen so that they can relate to each other in a way that might not be possible in other forms of sheltered housing? Oliver Colvile: My hon. Friend is quite right. One organisation he may wish to talk to is Alabaré, which does a lot of work on homes for ex-servicemen and is very well regarded by the Minister for the Armed Forces, my right hon. Friend the Member for South Leicestershire (Mr Robathan). We have a lot of work to do, and I look forward to the report on the armed forces covenant.

6.18 pm Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op): I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to today’s debate on our armed forces and the military covenant. Our servicemen and women sacrifice so much in defence of our country, as do their families, and they continue to serve across the world, most notably at present in Afghanistan, putting their lives on the line. Even in recent weeks, some have sadly paid the ultimate sacrifice, including Corporal Channing Day of 3 Medical Regiment, about whom we have already heard. Sadly, she died alongside Corporal David O’Connor of 40 Commando Royal Marines. I understand that Corporal Day was from Newtownards in County Down. She will be terribly missed by her family and by all who knew her. Her death reminds us that no corner of the UK is untouched by terrible sadness and tragedy when our forces pay the ultimate sacrifice. It is just a matter of days since the nation paused together to remember the fallen. From the thousands of people lining Whitehall to the events in all of our communities, it would appear that the number of people who participate in acts of remembrance is, if anything, rising. I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) for reminding us about the 669 Military Covenant21 NOVEMBER 2012 Military Covenant 670 grandfather was one of those men—he was a Royal injuries. When we speak of veterans we tend to think of Dublin Fusilier—and, as the right hon. Gentleman them as older people, but many are not very old at all, said, it is extremely important for us to remember their and they want to live their lives. We should ensure that if service as part of the commemorations of the great war. we can remove a hurdle, a worry or a barrier, we do so. I welcome the new Minister to his post. I recognise I welcome the guarantees on prosthetics that arose his commitment to our forces, and I appreciate that, as from the review conducted by the hon. Member for a former reservist, he will have first-hand experience of South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison). Now that he is a some of the issues that we are discussing. Minister in the MOD, he will be well placed to ensure We must bear in mind that, at its heart, the armed that those guarantees are delivered. However, I urge forces covenant is first and foremost about people. Ministers to consider whether such guarantees could be Labour Members worked hard to strengthen the Bill extended to cover other types of health care provision that became the Armed Forces Act 2011. We supported and treatment. I should welcome any details about the move to give legislative recognition to the covenant, progress in relation to mental health services and IVF and we will support the Government in seeking to provision. enshrine it at all levels and in all departments of the The whole point of the armed forces covenant is that public sector and, indeed, extend it further. no one who has served should be disadvantaged by that Today’s debate is timely, given the forthcoming service, but I hope that we can also use the umbrella of publication of the Government’s first annual covenant the covenant to highlight examples of excellence in the report. I am sure that Members on both sides of the way in which the forces community are treated, to raise House read with interest the interim report that was the bar, and to end the postcode lottery method of published late last year. In my view, however, the decision making. Time and again, I hear about people Government have already done the easy bit, and the leaving the forces being sent to the back of the queue for next steps will prove to be the real hard work. There is a local authority housing. Someone who is leaving the small degree of scepticism in the services community forces—and many are not doing so through choice at about the enshrining of the covenant in legislation, and the moment—and has been in service accommodation we must ensure that that is not just warm words, but is will need to find a new home for his or her family. It backed up by action. should not be the case that no local authority will take responsibility for them, or that they can only apply as None of us particularly wants to be in opposition, homeless, or that they do not have a choice about where because we cannot do all the things that we would like they can relocate. to do, but being in opposition does not mean that we cannot do anything. I was delighted when, earlier this Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): I am sure year, my right hon. Friend the Member for East my hon. Friend will be as happy as I am that most of Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy) launched the veterans interview Scotland is now served by local authorities that are programme, which involves a range of companies signed up to the community covenant. However, in guaranteeing interviews to veterans with the skills that Scotland that has been hindered by the Scottish they seek. As Members will know, a number of different Government cuts, which have been handed down to charities and organisations operate veterans employment local authorities. Does my hon. Friend agree that the schemes, and that variety is welcome, because we have Scottish Government, as well as the UK Government, not yet got it right. have a responsibility for supporting local authorities to A large number of service people will be “transitioning” enact the community covenant and protect our servicemen in the coming years, and they will have skills and and women and their families? experience that we should use in business, in public service, in innovation, in problem-solving, in leadership, Gemma Doyle: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. and in getting the job done. We need a better framework Unfortunately, we are continuing to see a patchwork of for their transition to civvy street, and we need better provision across the UK, and it is to be hoped that we routes to work. Unemployment is higher among veterans can address that problem through the community covenants. than in the general population, and that should not be Over the last couple of months a number of cases the case. have been highlighted in Scotland by the Daily Record. Earlier this month the Government announced the Calum Grant served in Afghanistan and Iraq with the introduction of a kitemark for companies that support Highlanders. He has been told he is likely to be offered a their reservist employees, and I think that it could be house in about nine years. Scots Guard Jason Eadie extended. That possibility was discussed at a recent also served in Afghanistan and his son has cerebral event organised by Recruit for Spouses and sponsored palsy. He has been told he will wait for about 15 years by the hon. Member for Devizes (Claire Perry). A for a house. kitemark could be awarded to companies that adopt a Unfortunately, the Scottish Government are sitting positive attitude to the employment of veterans, reservists on their hands. They say they have issued guidance to and forces spouses. If there is to be such a kitemark, it local authorities and it is now up to them to sort it out. should be a badge of honour, and we should consider The Scottish Government housing Minister is also the how to reward employers who have it. I urge the veterans Minister, however, so he can no doubt arrange Government to consider again whether the kitemark a meeting with himself to sort out a solution. He has could be taken into account in procurement decisions, said that because we do not agree with them that EU procurement “the housing needs of those who have served in the forces should rules would prevent that. be considered sympathetically by local authorities. It is the Some veterans, however, must deal with more pressing, responsibility of” urgent issues before they can even think of employment. councils to ensure that families Some of our veterans are living with extremely serious “have all their options explained.” 671 Military Covenant21 NOVEMBER 2012 Military Covenant 672

[Gemma Doyle] Westminster or elsewhere in the country would often see posters saying that members of the armed forces However, knowing what their options are and being were not welcome to drink there. As a country, we have listened to sympathetically does not get families a house. undergone a massive cultural change in our level of It is not good enough to pass the buck to local authorities. appreciation for our armed forces and how we show it. I read the evidence the Defence Minister gave to the We hope that the armed forces covenant will take things Welsh Affairs Committee recently and I am concerned to a new level, and it is tremendously important that that he may share the Scotland veterans Minister’s view, this is led by the Government and local authorities. because he said he wanted veterans to be given “the maximum possible consideration” by local authorities Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): On 18 July, in respect of housing priority.Again, however, consideration Lyndon Chatting-Walters of 9 Parachute Squadron, does not necessarily get people a house. I say to him and Royal Engineers was blown up in Afghanistan and the Scottish housing Minister that we need a framework came home with serious injuries. While he was still very that all local authorities and housing associations can ill and at home having them dealt with, he had to sign a sign up to. It has to be a framework that is stronger than form for compensation, and that is now being used to just giving consideration to, or listening sympathetically reduce his compensation package. He is seriously ill, to, veterans. and we need to deal with this situation.

Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP) rose— Penny Mordaunt: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I was going to make five brief points to the Minister Gemma Doyle: I am very sorry, but I am not going to about what he should be focusing on as he develops the give way as I am conscious that other Members still covenant, and the role of Service Complaints Commissioner want to speak. was top of the list. It is a unique position. The person Clearly, Northern Ireland faces particular challenges has tremendous knowledge and expertise, yet they were in taking the covenant forward, as Members have made not involved in developing the armed forces covenant clear today. I hope that a solution can be found. and they are not involved in the writing of the annual report. It would be tremendously helpful if the Minister The British public have given generously over the could rectify that. years, and have supported a vibrant and varied armed forces charitable sector, which not only provides services Secondly, I was going to mention the integration but pushes all of us in this Chamber to do better by the between civilian services and services in the armed service community. Its role is invaluable, but it is not a forces, where health care tops the list of areas that need substitute for Government action, and it should not be to be examined. Thirdly, the covenant is really a call to taken for granted. arms. It is a call for good ideas to be brought forward and acted on, so will the Minister ensure that he has The Minister and I attended the recent COBSEO— enough resources and capacity to be able to examine Confederation of British Service and Ex-Service them and implement them? Fourthly, a lot of money is Organisations—annual general meeting. He was in the being put into all kinds of organisations that provide hot seat, and I was in the cheap seats at the back. I am services and support to our armed forces, in part because sure he will recall questions about the fund which has of the kind of operations we are undertaking at the been drawn from bankers’ fines, for which charities have moment. That might not be the case in the future, so I been invited to bid. I welcome that fund, but there were urge all Departments to take a long-term view of how concerns about its administration, in that charities have, they plan to upkeep those rehabilitation services when perhaps, not been given sufficient notice to make there is less money coming in. applications. Some guidance on and criteria for applications would be welcome. Finally, I ask the Minister to examine the low-level issues as well as the headlines. We have had wonderful, Our armed forces consistently go above and beyond long overdue announcements under the covenant in the call of duty, making great sacrifices in the defence of areas such as education and in vitro fertilisation, but we our country. We will never be able to thank them need to address the downright boring stuff that will enough for what they do. A career in the forces is a make a great difference to men and women in our career like no other: it asks for so much, not only from armed forces, for example, getting their joint personnel those serving, but from their families as well. The administration accounts to work and getting the shower covenant challenges all of us to ensure our forces, fixed when they are overseas. I urge him to examine veterans and forces’ families do not face disadvantage those issues and not let up on reforms in that area. I because of their service. They deserve the best from us, also just wish to say that I am delighted that he is at the and it is the job of all of us to make sure they get it. helm, and I think that great things can be done under this initiative. Several hon. Members rose— Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Thank you for Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. The your brevity. I call Jim Shannon. wind-ups are going to start at 6.40 pm. Three Members remain to speak, so if they take just under four minutes each everybody will get in. If they take interventions, I 6.32 pm really should ignore any injury time. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Thank you for giving me the opportunity to say a few words, Mr Deputy 6.29 pm Speaker. First, I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con): It is not Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) on bringing long ago that people taking a stroll around the pubs in this matter to the House and on setting the scene clearly 673 Military Covenant21 NOVEMBER 2012 Military Covenant 674 for us all. I am proud to stand here today beside my those they love back home. We have a responsibility to fellow British men and British women to say a big thank the families, too, and we should and must act on that. I you to all those who put their lives, their mental health think of this comment: they offer their tomorrows so and their physical health at risk every day. that we can have our today. Let us honour that and My constituency was devastated recently by the news honour the covenant, and let us enshrine it from these of the loss of young Channing Day in Afghanistan. She green Benches so that it covers each and every corner of was a courageous and heroic young lady who gave the United Kingdom. much. My right hon. Friend and I were both at a dinner in London when we heard the news filtering through Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I call Mr Weir, that night, and it came as a shock to everyone there. I who should finish no later than 6.40 pm. was shocked to the very pit of my stomach. Many of us were shocked to learn that someone who came from a place not 10 minutes away from my office would never 6.36 pm be home in physical body again. The community of Comber turned out in great numbers at the Royal Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): I am glad to be able to British Legion service on the Saturday before the service make a brief contribution to this important debate. I that the Minister of State attended in Comber church, fully support the motion. I would have preferred it had and it was a very poignant occasion. All the RBL it referred to “nations and regions”, but we will not fall remembrance services in my area served as a particular out over that. reminder, because not too far away was a young lady Scotland has a long military tradition, of course, who gave her life. The Army quickly stepped in to and Scottish soldiers, sailors and airmen and women provide the assistance necessary to help the family—to have served and continue to serve with distinction and bring them over to receive Channing’s remains when courage. They are justly proud of their reputation as they came home and to come to Comber. The funeral among the best in the world. They, their families and was an occasion of some poignancy and tears for all of veterans are an integral part of Scottish society and us. Those are things that we remember. their local communities. I represent 45 Commando, Let me make a couple of very quick points. About a based in RM Condor by Arbroath. Many personnel month ago, we had a coffee morning in my office for have married locally and settled in the area after SSAFA—the Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Families leaving the service. Recently, the unit raised a lot of Association—which raised some £3,600. We have raised funding, much of it locally, to provide the Woodlands £14,000 over four years. That is only a drop in the ocean memorial garden to commemorate those who have fallen when it comes to what is necessary, but it underlines the in conflict, from Northern Ireland and the Falklands to fact that there are a great number of charities, including Iraq and Afghanistan. It not only remembers them but SSAFA, ABF and the Royal British Legion, all doing provides an opportunity for all those who have served their best to ensure that the opportunities are open to to have a quiet place for reflection, as well as providing everyone when it comes to ensuring that people have the a place for children to play. It reminds us that not only chance to receive the help that they need. those who serve but the families are important. Those I am very privileged to come from an area where families are often left behind, worrying about those people join the armed forces—it is not just an exception, who are in the services, whether they are in Afghanistan but an everyday part of my life. In my office alone, my or elsewhere.. secretary’s nephew and my researcher’s friend and husband Many of the services required by the military covenant are serving Queen and country. That is three people out are devolved in Scotland, including health, education of my office and shows the service from the area. I am and housing, and are the responsibility of the Scottish proud to stand in the Chamber on behalf of the people Government. The Scottish Government are committed of my constituency of Strangford and the service they to the armed forces covenant and to ensuring that no give across the whole world. It is true to say that member of the armed services, service family member wherever a person goes in the world, they will find a or veteran in Scotland faces disadvantage when accessing soldier from Northern Ireland either fighting a battle or services or support. We have a veterans Minister, Keith cleaning up afterwards. Wherever I have been in the Brown, who is a former Royal Marine from 45 Commando world with the armed forces parliamentary scheme, I who served in the Falklands war. We have published a have met soldiers from my constituency who are doing paper, “Our Commitments”, which sets out the Scottish just that—giving a great service across the world. Government’s support for the armed forces community I have also been an avid supporter of the British in Scotland and has been widely welcomed, including Legion’s “Honour the Covenant” campaign, which we by the head of veterans services at the MOD’s service should all support. I believe that there have been many personnel and veterans agency. changes in how the MOD and the Government treat I want to address one specific point. I was very our returning soldiers. As many Members have said, we disappointed that the hon. Member for West need to consider their mental health, but there is also a Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle) made a ridiculous physical aspect to the question. With growing numbers political attack on housing, because that is an important of injured personnel coming home from Afghanistan, issue for veterans and servicemen. The Scottish Government there is an immediate need for a dedicated strategy on have introduced legislation to ensure that service people’s care for them and their families. They need to know local connections are taken into account when they what they are coming home to and we should be providing leave, which is something that Labour never did in its that strategy. eight years in power although it was Labour that introduced Finally, whenever I meet servicemen, they say to me the original legislation. We do not have a stock of that they will give all they have if we will take care of housing we can just pull out of a hat and give to anyone 675 Military Covenant21 NOVEMBER 2012 Military Covenant 676

[Mr Mike Weir] But what gets me is the fact that before this debate, we had a previous debate, with pious tones about leadership, who comes along—there is a serious difficulty, irrespective about what we should do for our country, how we of what the covenant says, with the supply of social should stand up and be together; and as soon as the housing. debate on the military covenant started, I was caught in Too often in the past, service people have been told the breeze as the three SDLP Members were hurtling that they have no local connection because they have out of the door so fast they nearly took the hinges off it. moved around a lot, and their local connection is in an I think that is a disgrace. I think they should be here, area where perhaps they have not been for many years, and they should have debated this issue and felt comfortable as a result of their service. The Scottish Government debating this issue. The fact that they made themselves have ensured that they are treated as having a local absent makes it all the worse for them, because they connection; they will be considered for social housing. have let down many people in Northern Ireland tonight, However, there is not enough social housing, because whom they should have been speaking for and should successive Governments—Labour in particular—failed have been supporting. to build social housing when they had the chance. The My right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley Scottish Government are now building new social housing rightly indicated that section 75 of the Northern Ireland to deal with the lack that there has been for so long. I Act 1998 is a great impediment to many of the proposals think it is appalling— that we seek to introduce, especially in housing. I would like it if, when a former soldier presents himself or Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. We herself to the Northern Ireland Housing Executive, he must begin the wind-ups. Mr Paisley. or she would automatically get 200 or 300 points on the list; in other words, they could choose where to live. They will never be able to live in certain parts of Ulster, 6.40 pm so they should have the advantage of being given extra points right away to be housed. They do not get that; we Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): This has been a need that sorted out. I know that the Minister is listening wonderful debate. We have seen a very good response to that, because we have spoken about it before, and it is from across the Chamber, and it has provided people crucial. from every arc and part of this kingdom with an opportunity to come here and voice the issues that are In addition, the children of a former soldier should of concern to them about veterans and their needs, and be able to get into the right primary school, where the about how we, as a Parliament and as a nation, should parents know they will be safe. If a person has a roof treat them. It really has been a tribute to our armed over their head, and feels that their children are safe and service personnel. I hope I speak for everyone when I free from fear, that person will be a better person in say that it is Parliament expressing the high esteem in society. We need to do all we can to bring that about. which we hold our veterans and our armed service I was delighted by the comments by the Minister of personnel. State, the right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford Soldiers have been ambassadors for Northern Ireland. (Mr Francois). We will give him room, between now As one Member mentioned, when those soldiers who and, I think, 12 December, when we meet the Prime came from the mainland and served in Northern Ireland Minister, to iron out some of the issues, because he is got to meet the ordinary folk—the people who supported right: not everyone does support the agenda that we them, the people who welcomed them, the people who have set before the House tonight. Let us use the time, knew that they were there to protect their life and their so that when we get to 12 December we have an agenda property—they became ambassadors for those people that is not only agreed but can be taken forward and when they returned home to their families. Likewise, implemented. I hope that we can do so. soldiers who have travelled from Northern Ireland, who The Minister mentioned the 170 Victoria Crosses have been recruited in Ulster and worked for the British awarded to Irishmen in the service of our country. One Army overseas, have been ambassadors for our country, hailed from my constituency—Robert Quigg, from and have told great things about it. Of course, as my Bushmills. He was a brave and gallant man—a shepherd— colleague and hon. Friend the Member for Strangford who laid his life on the line during the battle of the (Jim Shannon) has just recited, many have paid the Somme and rescued 16 people, I believe, from no man’s ultimate sacrifice for being the ambassadors of our land close to enemy lines. What a gallant soldier and nation. It is for that reason that we should do all that we what an inspiration to local people in the community, can as a Parliament to help them, and to assist their where he is still hailed with wonder. families, and to ensure that the military covenant is The hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and honoured not just in spirit but in the letter of the law in East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop) talked about how the every part of the United Kingdom, not just some parts Green Howards are being disbanded. He is right to of it. question and challenge that decision, as was the hon. When my colleague and right hon. Friend the Member Member for Newark (Patrick Mercer), who highlighted for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) opened the debate, the difficulty for veterans in Northern Ireland who have he said how such service has affected not just people in to live next door to people who would previously have the United Kingdom but now people in the Republic of had them on their hit list. He is right to say that, very the Ireland. We welcome the efforts that were made by soon, a wave of such cases will come before us which we the then Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, to establish a memorial as a nation will have to deal with, and deal with garden to the fallen victims of world war one who had appropriately. volunteered to fight for Crown and country and should The right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd have been honoured but were treated so disgracefully. (Mr Llwyd), with his lovely Welsh lilt, as usual entertained 677 Military Covenant21 NOVEMBER 2012 Military Covenant 678 the House with everything from an apt reference to particular to those from the Irish Republic. It is important David Lloyd George’s speech after the war about the that we recognise the dedication they have shown to Her broken men to the project he is launching on banking Majesty’s armed forces. services. I think that is a great idea, and we will watch The hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) is with interest to see whether there are components that not in her place, but in the previous debate she said that we can pick up and run with, not only in Ulster but in she was born in 1971. I joined the Army as a boy soldier other places, I am sure. The military covenant should be in 1974, which makes me feel extremely old. I did my something that emboldens people to be creative and to basic training at Pirbright, where the Household Division find opportunities to deliver other services. trained together. Two young lads there were 16 years of I will leave the right hon. Gentleman to his dispute age, like me, and from Ireland—one from Belfast, the with the former Minister, but I think we all agree that other from Dublin. They were clearly from a different we want more money in the system for our veterans. On religious background and culturally they were very that point, the Defence Minister reassured us in an different. They were the toughest two soldiers in the intervention that the data protection and patient consent whole of that Brigade Squad. One of them went on to issue is now nearly sorted out. That is really good become the company sergeant-major of the Irish Guards progress, because I know that that issue has caused boys unit. He was from Dublin and I think he served for some angst across the House. nearly 22 years. He was as tough as boots and as proud I pay tribute to all the right hon. and hon. Members as punch of being an Irishman and from the south. He who took the time to come to this House this evening to served his country, just as others do today, in the way speak about a subject of national importance, which we that we would expect of any members of our armed forces. are proud to have put on the Order Paper so that our Some of my hon. Friends have drifted away to other national Parliament could debate it. I congratulate the duties, but I joined as a junior guardsman and left as a hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport junior guardsman before re-enlisting as a private in the (Oliver Colvile), a colleague of mine on the Northern Royal Army Medical Corps to try to keep my para pay. Ireland Affairs Committee, on his powerful speech. He That did not last very long, so I left as a private. It was has shown a keen interest in our servicemen in Northern particularly moving for me to attend the funeral of Ireland. Corporal Channing Day and wear the RAMC tie, I end by echoing the words of the hon. Member for which I am also wearing today. West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle), who from the The medics are an amazing group of people. During Dispatch Box said that no part of the United Kingdom my time in the military they were developing techniques is untouched by the effects of this issue. She got it in at great risk, literally on the front line. One of our one: no part of this kingdom is untouched, whether it servicemen had been blown up and a young man did a be Ulster, Scotland, Wales or the mainland of England. tracheotomy on him by putting a Bic pen straight into We are not untouched and we must make sure that we the front of his throat. He knew that, otherwise, that respond with valour, with decency and with honour for man would die. Our medics were not allowed to do those people we hold in such high esteem. tracheotomies, so he took a huge risk: either that person would die, or he would take the punishment. The guy 6.47 pm lived and tracheotomy has moved on, particularly with front-line medics. The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mike Penning): It is a privilege to wind up the second of this When I was a shadow Health Minister, I had the afternoon’s debates. Those who were not here for the privilege of visiting Camp Bastion and seeing mainly first might be quite surprised that a Minister of State in NHS medics working on the front-line as Territorials. the Northern Ireland Office is winding up a debate on Much of the skill in our A and E and major trauma the military covenant. I will explain why in a moment, units today is a result of the work of our medics out but first I want to say that I think this has been an there. Frankly, any soldier or serviceman from any part excellent debate, although it is a shame it deteriorated a of the armed forces anywhere in the world will say that little into party politics. I do not think the military being a battlefield medic, which is what Corporal Day covenant should be about that. It is not about how was, is one of the most important jobs and that they difficult things are in certain parts of the country; how need them by their side. we do it is the most important thing for our veterans. Jim Shannon: Will the Minister give way? The reason why a Northern Ireland Minister is replying to the debate is that the Democratic Unionist Mike Penning: I would like to make progress, if I may. party, led by the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley The hon. Gentleman sat with me at the church. One of (Mr Donaldson), has used its time this afternoon to the most moving things is that Corporal Day’s father is discuss the military covenant in relation to Northern a veteran of the Royal Pioneer Corps. She desperately Ireland in particular. Perhaps the next time we debate wanted to be an engineer, but she was too short and the covenant, we will have a bit more time and be able to became a battlefield medic instead, and thank goodness discuss the really pressing issues, but I think we can that she did. move on. That 11 speeches were made in the short time allowed Jim Shannon: The Minister’s comments are very kind. for the debate on the military covenant demonstrates It was a poignant occasion for us all. Camp Bastion has the importance of its effects on our constituencies, no the best care in the world—it has saved the lives of matter what part of the United Kingdom we represent. servicemen who have lost three limbs. Does the Minister Listening to the debate, I have been proud to hear how agree that that is an indication not just of the good representatives of our country who are not from the work that our medical services do, but of that of the United Kingdom have also been honoured. I refer in medics on the field of battle as well? 679 Military Covenant 21 NOVEMBER 2012 680

Mike Penning: That is a very important intervention. it. On the legislation, we are simply trying to create an The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence, my right enabling environment—not something prescriptive—in hon. Friend the Member for Rayleigh and Wickford which we can do the things that we both want to do. (Mr Francois), has just whispered in my ear that 98%—I knew that the figure was good—of casualties who go Mike Penning: I agree completely. That is exactly into Camp Bastion field hospital alive come out alive. what we need to do. If we can do that, it will be That is amazing and reflects the poignancy of part of excellent. However, there may still be circumstances in this evening’s debate. People with physical and major which we need to be very careful about how we proceed. trauma injuries are surviving today who would never have survived in the old days—sadly, we would have lost I raised this issue with the brigadier in charge of them many years ago. That means that our role when 38 (Irish) Brigade at Corporal Day’s funeral, which was they come home is very important. An awful lot of the the earliest opportunity I had to do so. He said that in injured stay in the armed forces—a lot more than when the interim, and even afterwards, Members should come I served—but many still leave. to see him or me if they have constituency cases in Those are the visible signs and we need to do everything Northern Ireland of the issues that have been raised. we can for them, and the Royal British Legion, Help for The rapport that the brigadier and his staff have with a Heroes and other units and benevolent funds are doing lot of local authorities, which can be difficult in this sort fantastic work. I completely agree that it will be really of thing, is actually very good. What they say publicly difficult when we come home from Afghanistan. That is sometimes differs from what they say privately, so we true. When we come home from Afghanistan or from can address many of these issues. ops, donations to the Legion and Help for Heroes, The Defence Minister will write to Members about which started during Iraq and Afghanistan, will drop. many other questions that have been raised, but I will That is why it is so important that we get the money in deal with one matter of which I am very conscious. I now. The Government can do a lot, but those wonderful have lots of friends who served in the Falklands. One charities do an enormous amount of work. of my closest friends is Simon Weston, who has done When I was at the Department for Transport, I sat on unbelievable things for charity since he suffered his the military covenant committee chaired by the Prime horrific injuries in the Falklands. He tells me all the Minister. I am proud to have been re-appointed to that time that mental health issues such as post-traumatic committee as the Minister of State for Northern Ireland. stress disorder—the percentages do not really matter—rarely It is very important that the voice of Northern Ireland show themselves early on, but become apparent later is heard on that committee. The Minister for Housing down the line. The difficulty is how we get people to also sits on the committee. The hon. Member for address such problems. Very often, people do not Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom know that they have them. If they do, they often do not Blenkinsop) spoke about housing benefit. We know want to tell people how they feel because they are very about that issue and the committee is working on how proud people who have served their country. I experienced the benefit structure works. I, too, look forward to that when I was in the fire service. I knew many guys seeing the report when it comes out before Christmas. who were really struggling with what they had seen I will now touch on Northern Ireland and, in particular, over their 15 or 20 years of service. We have to give the conflicting legislation. Rather than looking at why it such people the opportunities to come forward, or is preventing us from doing things for veterans and their have the expertise available for them from the various families, we should consider how we can move forward. organisations. It would be a good idea to consider that between now I have to sit down now. This has been an important and the meeting with the Prime Minister on 12 December. debate and I am sorry if anybody is disappointed that it was a Northern Ireland Minister who summed up. Jim Shannon: It is on the 19th. Question put and agreed to. Mike Penning: Sorry, the 19th. I expect that it is being Resolved, moved in my diary as we speak, as I hope to be at the That this House acknowledges the service and sacrifice of the meeting. United Kingdom’s armed forces and veterans and supports the full My one concern is that we must not be too prescriptive. implementation of the military covenant in each region of the As the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) United Kingdom. said, a veteran might be living next door to someone who disagrees fundamentally with their serving in the armed forces. It is not as simple as turning up and Business without Debate saying, “I should be rehoused because I am a veteran.” In Northern Ireland, the situation is very difficult. In many cases, we might not want people to know that somebody is ex-service, where they are coming from or GROCERIES CODE ADJUDICATOR BILL where they live, particularly if they come from the [LORDS] (PROGRAMME0 (NO.2) nationalist side. I have met many nationalist young people who have served in the armed forces. We have to Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing be really careful not to make the situation worse for Order No. 83A(7)). them while we are trying to make it better. That the Order of 19 November 2012 (Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [Lords] (Programme)) be varied as follows: In paragraph 2 Mr Donaldson: I take entirely the point that the (conclusion of proceedings in Public Bill Committee), for “Thursday Minister is making, and m hon. Friend the Member for 6 December”, substitute “Tuesday 18 December”.—(Nicky Morgan.) North Antrim (Ian Paisley) made it clear that we understand Question agreed to. 681 Business without Debate21 NOVEMBER 2012 Business without Debate 682

EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS To the House of Commons, Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing The Petition of members of the National League of the Blind Order No. 119(11)), and Disabled and of residents of Teesside, Declares that the Petitioners believe that the Welfare Reform EU CO-FINANCING FOR ACTIONS IN THE FIELD OF Act and the abolition of the Disability Living Allowance will ASYLUM AND IMMIGRATION adversely affect disabled people, including disabled workers at That this House takes note of European Union Document Ayresome Industries on Teesside. The Petitioners therefore request No. 14123/12, a draft decision of the European Parliament and that the House of Commons urges the Government to review and Council amending decision No. 573/2007/EC, decision No. 575/ reverse welfare reform and cuts to service that disproportionately 2007/EC and Council decision 2007/435/EC with a view to increasing hit disabled people. the co-financing rate of the European Refugee Fund, the European And the Petitioners remain, etc. Return Fund and the European Fund for the Integration of Third Country Nationals as regards certain provisions relating to [P001135] financial management for certain member states experiencing or threatened with serious financial difficulties with respect to their Emergency life support skills in schools financial stability; notes that the draft decision would be subject to the UK’s opt-in; notes that the draft decision may increase the ability of certain member states, including Greece, to fully utilise 7.1 pm solidarity funds, which have been severely impacted by the ongoing economic crisis; further notes that the Greek-Turkish border is Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): In advance of the the entry point for more than half of all illegal migrants to the debate tomorrow, I received a petition from residents of EU, and many of these migrants travel onwards to the UK; agrees the United Kingdom. The original petition organised that the UK has an interest in seeing an improved response to by the British Heart Foundation received 124,665 signatures. migratory pressures in Greece, and that the effective use of solidarity funds can play an integral part in this improvement; The petition states: and supports the Government’s view that this draft proposal The Petition from residents of the United Kingdom, would also provide benefit to Ireland with whom the UK has a Declares that the Petitioners believe that knowing how to stop shared border.—(Nicky Morgan.) bleeding, open an airway or perform CPR is an essential part of a Question agreed to. young person’s education; and the Government should take steps to ensure that there is a new generation of life savers across the PETITIONS UK. Welfare Reform Act The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to make emergency life support skills a 7pm part of the curriculum to be taught in all schools Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East And the Petitioners remain, etc. Cleveland) (Lab): The petition states: [P001136] 683 21 NOVEMBER 2012 0845 Phone Lines (DWP) 684

[Julie Hilling] have switched to the landlines that the hon. Gentleman advocates, as have 22 out of the 24 GP centres using the 0845 Phone Lines (DWP) numbers in Rotherham. I should tell the Minister, as the hon. Gentleman has, that change is possible and can be Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House done. It requires the will of the Department for Work do now adjourn.—(Nicky Morgan.) and Pensions, just as it does the will of the Department of Health and the NHS. 7.2 pm On calls to the Department for Work and Pensions, John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): Some Mr Roger Clark of Goldthorpe put it to me like this: of the most important matters that MPs discuss in “We cannot afford to do this out of our benefits with the cost Parliament start with concerns that are raised with us of gas, electricity, water, food and fuel being so expensive”. by constituents, as is the case with this debate. People are routinely placed on hold for half an hour when Quite simply, the Department is hitting the people that calling the local job centre, or they are charged £40 in a it is there to help. The situation is getting more serious. single month for the cost of calls to Departments, when Many people now rely on mobiles. One in six people live they simply try to report a change in circumstances. in homes without landlines. Ninety-two per cent. of Such bills are run up because, as I established through adults have a mobile phone, and the number is increasing. freedom of information requests and parliamentary The Secretary of State told me in writing in the answers, the Department for Work and Pensions has summer: 148 separate phone lines all using 0845 numbers that “Jobcentre Plus is subject to the Department’s telephony numbering can cost up to 10p per minute from a landline and policy, which is that all calls should be free to our 0800 numbers 41p per minute from mobile phones. to claim…State pension…Pension credit…Jobseekers People who need to call those numbers are usually on allowance…Employment and support allowance…Emergency a fixed, low income. They are elderly, vulnerable or payments or crisis loans.” unwell, and they are being charged rip-off rates to sort That is correct, but it is misleading. Those are a small out problems or simply get information about sickness minority of dedicated DWP phone lines. As the Minister and disability benefits, carers support, jobs, pensions, confirmed in a parliamentary answer last month, fully child support, and even crisis loans. 87% of the Department’s phone lines use the 0845 number, including the disability living allowance and Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Does the right attendance allowance helplines; Jobseeker Direct, which hon. Gentleman believe that the best way would be not helps people to find or make an appointment with to charge at all for such phone lines, which are used by Jobcentre Plus; all local jobcentres; Employment Direct, the elderly, single parents, those on low incomes and which is used for advertising jobs; the social fund; the those in poverty? winter fuel helpline; and the child maintenance line. The list goes on, and time is limited. In other words, John Healey: I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s support people can pay up to 41p a minute in phone call charges for my argument. He is right that thousands of people for almost all inquiries to check the progress of applications, in his constituency, in mine and in the Minister’s will be to ask for information and advice, to report a mistake affected by those premium-rate lines and the rip-off call or change in circumstances, and to make claims for charges that people can suffer. The cost of the call takes some benefits and other support payments. a big chunk out of already stretched budgets. That can The other day, someone locally who helps others to put people off making calls to get the help they need. deal with the problems they face in the benefits and tax Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): Will the right hon. credits system said: Gentleman give way? “I called the Jobcentre and tax credit office last week for a lady only to find after looking at her itemised” John Healey: I was not aware of the hon. Gentleman’s telephone interest in the debate beforehand, but I will of course “bill it had cost her £4.55; and this was only the calls that could be give way. checked as calls under 50p are not itemised.” Henry Smith: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman She added: for giving way. He will know from his time as shadow “To someone in this lady’s position as a single mum this is the Health Secretary, which was more than a year ago, that equivalent of her daily food bill.” phone lines are a problem not only for the Department This is not just a problem of call rates. We have an for Work and Pensions, but for the health service. excellent welfare rights service, run by Rotherham district Contrary to Department of Health advice, many general council. Staff there told me of a client this week who practitioner services still have 0845 numbers. Surely the needed to check on the progress of her employment and solution is to use geographical or 0300 numbers. support allowance claim. She has debts, as well as mental health difficulties. The advice worker said that John Healey: I am glad I gave way and welcome the “she needed a great deal of encouragement from the adviser just hon. Gentleman’s intervention. He is right, because to use the phone and she simply couldn’t afford to call the DWP. guidance was issued in 2009—regulations were put in So she used the office landline, and the length of the two calls was place in 2010, but they have not been enforced. over 30 minutes before she was then told she’d have to call back If it gives the hon. Gentleman any comfort, I ran a another time, as all the staff were busy.” campaign in my local area because GP surgeries in There are almost 8,000 people on jobseeker’s allowance Barnsley and Rotherham were using 0845 numbers for in Barnsley, nearly 9,000 in Rotherham, and more than people who wanted access to the surgery. I am happy to 45,000 across south Yorkshire. A further 38,000 across say that all 16 of those using the numbers in Barnsley south Yorkshire receive income support and 37,000 get 685 0845 Phone Lines (DWP)21 NOVEMBER 2012 0845 Phone Lines (DWP) 686 incapacity benefit. This is a scandal on a massive scale. the extra charges, the 0845 numbers are not just a bad The Department’s response to my FOI request showed deal for benefits claimants, but for the taxpayer. that well over 30 million people call just seven of the Change is possible. I mentioned the changes to GP DWP’s most commonly used inquiry lines each year—never surgeries and the approach of the Department of Health mind the 141 other lines. and the NHS. The Minister might also care to look at These 0845 numbers are formally called number the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, translation services. The NTS is dialled by a caller and because it ended a consultation on implementing the is diverted to its destination. This process can include consumer rights directive, which was agreed by all member features such as distributing calls between multiple sites, states in the EU last year. This will routeing calls according to the caller’s location and, of “prohibit excessive phone charges for consumers contacting traders course, transmitting recorded announcements. But the about existing contracts.” key feature of these number translation services is that In other words, all post-contract customer helplines will the call revenue from the customer can be—and normally have to charge the consumer no more than the basic is—shared between the telecoms company and the rate for a telephone call. According to the Department, organisation receiving the call, the former receiving the intention is the access charge component and the latter receiving “that traders should not use high charges to deter existing customers the service charge or the termination rate as it is known. with legitimate queries, complaints or cancellation requests from The Minister is relatively new to his brief, but the contacting them nor derive revenue benefit from such contacts”. Government have had plenty of notice about the problems The parallels are clear; the lessons are clear. I hope the with the 0845 numbers. Back in 2006, Ofcom said: Minister and his colleagues in the DWP will learn those “Ofcom continues to recommend that public bodies should lessons. Because things are poised to get much worse not use NTS numbers exclusively…especially when dealing with now is the time for him to act. I fear that there could be people on low incomes or other vulnerable groups. The new 03 an explosion of inquiries and problems for people because country-wide numbers, proposed as part of Ofcom’s Numbering of the current turmoil in the benefit system at the very Review, would be well suited to the needs of many public bodies currently using chargeable 08 numbers.” time the Government are cutting face-to-face service staff and forcing people to use phones instead. The Those 03 numbers were introduced the following year, combination of sudden cuts in benefits payments, delays and Ofcom recommends the use of these numbers, in decisions and the introduction of universal credit which provide the same additional functionality as 08 next year could lead to chaos and much higher costs for numbers but are priced the same as a geographic numbers those making calls. and—crucially—have no revenue sharing. What should the Minister do? Responsibility for running The long-standing campaigner and expert David Hickson an efficient and equitable system of benefit support lies and the fair telecoms campaign take the same view—that with the Government. I see contact centres and phone 03 numbers are lines for access as part of the running costs of government. “a perfectly acceptable option for normal engagement between Therefore, there is a strong, principled case for making citizens and public bodies”. free the phone access that people need if they are to I go further, and Ministers make three arguments in claim and to continue to receive their benefits, tax response to my challenge. First they say that the DWP credits, pensions or child support. I want the Government will ring people back, but too many constituents tell me to make these changes. that this is not offered and does not happen. The FOI After all, the Department makes calls free with the figures I have show that hundreds of thousands of 0800 numbers for new claims for some benefits. With callers each week give up on getting through after being the Ofcom changes to come in shortly, that will apply to kept on hold and charged. More than one in three calls all mobile calls, not just landline calls. As a minimum, to the employment and support allowance helpline are all lines for all dealings with the DWP should be switched abandoned before they are answered, but on average to 03 numbers, so that the cost is never more than calls more than five minutes after they have been connected. to a 01 or a 02 number, and they must be part of any Callers to the incapacity benefit reassessment line wait inclusive discount schemes in the same way.These numbers nearly 13 minutes without being answered before they were launched five years ago for Government, public hang up. bodies, charities and not-for-profit organisations to use. Secondly, Ministers say that there are customer access Ofcom has reserved 0345 numbers for each of the phones in most—but not all—jobcentres. Let me again equivalent 0845 numbers, so that the switch could be quote from a constituent in Goldthorpe in Dearne who made with minimum cost and minimum confusion. says that Finally, I called this debate to expose the extent of “in my case the jobcentre at Goldthorpe the phone is in the corner the rip-off rates that many of the poorest, most distressed where everybody who goes in to the office can overhear your and highly vulnerable are paying to get the welfare conversations not in a sound proof booth so your conversations support to which they are entitled. I leave the last words cannot be overheard.” to a local man from Barnsley who said: Frankly, people are having to give very private, personal “You haven’t the money to pay to phone these numbers, and and financial information through these phone lines. It yet you have to phone them. It’s a poor person’s trap.” is not acceptable to say, “There are these phones in the Jobcentre Plus office in the public space.” It is unfair and unjustifiable, and it must change. Thirdly, the Department says that it does not benefit 7.20 pm from the premium rate charges that people have to pay to ring it, but someone is making money from these The Minister of State, Department for Work and calls. If the Government are not sharing the extra Pensions (Mr Mark Hoban): I congratulate the right revenue and are letting the telecoms companies keep all hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) 687 0845 Phone Lines (DWP)21 NOVEMBER 2012 0845 Phone Lines (DWP) 688

[Mr Mark Hoban] one type of inquiry. This method of handling customer calls has proved to be much more efficient than the on securing this debate. He focused most of his remarks previous system, under which calls were directed to on 0845 numbers, but they are not the only numbers the specific offices without the facility to reroute them to Department uses. As I explain, I will give a more meet customer demands. It is designed to help facilitate balanced picture of the telephone situation than the and speed up the response to telephone calls. The use of one he gave in what I thought was a selective presentation geographic numbers would undermine the ability of the of the information. business to manage effectively the significant volume of The Department has set out clear principles for the calls received each year, and would result in a less provision of telephone services. Indeed, they were set efficient process. out when the right hon. Gentleman was a member of Let me deal with the issue of costs. Charges for 0845 the previous Government in 2008. There are four clear numbers vary depending on the service provider, personal principles. First, calls to claim benefits should be free to contract and time of day a call is made. As a result, the the customer. Secondly, there should be a consistent costs to consumers are beyond DWP control. About approach across the Department, both for clarity and 75% of calls to the DWP originate from landlines. If equity. Thirdly, the approach should make sense from calls to 0845 numbers fall within the terms of a customer’s the customer’s point of view, rather than being driven call plan, they are free. BT, the largest landline provider, by product lines or organisational structure. Fourthly, it charges 7.95p a minute, plus a 13.1p connection fee, must be sustainable in terms of future business models where the call is made outside the inclusive plan. The and changes in the telephony market. right hon. Gentleman implied, without really making it To enact those principles, calls to claim benefit are explicit, that he thought the Government were benefitting free and utilise 0800 numbers. The right hon. Gentleman from the cost of 0845 calls. We do not receive the said that crisis loan calls were not free, but they are. termination payment. Other major landline providers Other calls that typically take less time to resolve are charge between 6.63p and 10.22p a minute—also with made to 0845 numbers. Their use means that the customer connection charges—while the charge varies for calls is charged the same amount regardless of their geographical from mobiles. location or that of the DWP office they are calling. The The right hon. Gentleman also raised the issue of exact cost will vary depending on the caller’s phone 03 numbers. Depending on the service provider and the number and the service provider. I will give more detail contract or call plan, many customers would currently on that later. pay more to contact the DWP if 0845 numbers were The Department provides customers with a facility to simply replaced by 03 numbers, so that would not be an make a free telephone call to claim the state pension, easy solution to the problem. He needs to recognise that pension credit, jobseeker’s allowance, employment and the situation is more complex than that. support allowance, crisis loans and other emergency payments. These calls are free of charge from all major John Healey: The caller pays the termination charge, landline providers. The right hon. Gentleman talked so if the Government do not receive it, and most about the Ofcom changes making it free to call these organisations using the service receive the access charge numbers from a mobile. The Department has already component, who receives the value of the termination made that change. As a result, eight of the UK’s largest charge? mobile phone operators—O2, Orange, Vodafone, T-Mobile, Hutchison 3G, Tesco Mobile, Virgin Mobile and Cable Mr Hoban: The people or organisations hosting those and Wireless—allow their customers to make those 0845 numbers are the ones who earn the components of calls for free already. those calls. The Department uses 0800 and 0845 numbers, rather Let me turn to the duration of calls. In line with the than the geographical 01 and 02 numbers, to enable the departmental principles that I outlined at the outset, operation of a virtual telephony network across the calls to claim benefit should be free, because they are UK. This network has been in place for working-age longer on average than calls to other numbers. For benefits and crisis loans since 2008, and allows callers example, between April and October the average duration to be directed to the next available adviser with the of calls by working-age customers to our free 0800 appropriate skills to answer a customer’s inquiry. For numbers was 25 minutes and 28 seconds, while the example, someone ringing from their home in Rotherham average duration of calls to our 0845 numbers was or Barnsley to make a claim for jobseeker’s allowance seven minutes and 42 seconds. We have sought to use might be connected to an adviser in Dundee, Derby or our resources to ensure that those making the longest Poole. They will be directed to the first adviser available, calls—mainly to claim benefits—can make them for rather than left hanging on the telephone waiting for free. Again, that is an important distinction that we the call to be answered in their local benefit or contact need to recognise. Duration of calls is a factor that we centre. Furthermore, should that person wish to make have taken into account for those lines used to make an inquiry about their benefits later on, that call would claims, because there can be quite lengthy discussions be answered by the first available adviser in a centre, between DWP claimants and call centre agents. wherever that centre might be, rather than left waiting We have touched on the cost of 0845 calls and what for someone in their local centre to answer. would happen if we replaced them. The estimate is that The use of these numbers gives the Department the replacing 0845 numbers with a free service would cost flexibility to manage the peaks and troughs of the in excess of £12 million, because of changes to contracts different types of inquiries it receives nationally. Calls and significant migration costs, including changes to can be routed to additional centres, as and when volumes branding and marketing. It is unlikely that mobile require, and advisers are trained to handle more than phone operators would agree to extend the scope of the 689 0845 Phone Lines (DWP)21 NOVEMBER 2012 0845 Phone Lines (DWP) 690 current agreement for free mobile calls to the DWP’s strategy, we are also encouraging more people to use 0800 numbers to cover such an increase. The right hon. online facilities to seek information and guidance. We Gentleman talked about the number of unemployed have launched a new online service for jobseekers this people in his constituency. Spending £12 million on week, which will help to improve the quality of service. migrating to 0800 numbers would mean £12 million less We are trying to increase the number of ways in which to spend on the Department’s other activities. He is a claimants can contact the DWP without necessarily former Treasury Minister and he will know about the having to use the telephone service, and as we continue priorities and difficult choices that Governments have to develop our digital strategy, that will become an to make about where money is spent. If we spend more important part of how we deliver benefits. It is also a money on free telephone calls, someone else somewhere key part of universal credit. in the system has to bear that cost. I want to ensure that In conclusion, we recognise that the issue about customer as much of our taxpayers’ money as possible is spent on waiting times is an important one. That is why we have getting people into work, rather than looking at further recruited more staff and trained them on 0845 benefit changes to the telephony service, particularly given that inquiry lines. The working age and pensions service the longest calls made by people claiming benefits are to lines have a central network management team that can free-phone numbers. move work around the network in real time to bring a The right hon. Gentleman was slightly dismissive of balance of service delivery on all service lines. We are the mitigation measures we have put in place to help also trying to improve our call answering metrics. In customers. We will offer to terminate a call and ring the line with the principles set out by the previous Government, customer back if they are concerned about the cost. which we have followed, we have ensured that calls in That service is available, and I think it is well known. I which people are making claims are free, to 0800 numbers, would encourage people who are concerned about the and that customers know that there are alternatives out cost to use that service. there if they feel that the cost of calling an 0845 number is prohibitively expensive. We are taking the right action, We also provide customer access phones in Jobcentre and we want to continue to promote such alternatives Plus. I suspect that if they were put in a soundproof to our claimants. booth in the corner, the right hon. Gentleman would accuse us of hiding them from claimants. I have known Question put and agreed to. him long enough to suggest that that might be a line of attack that he might take. We ensure that the phones are 7.31 pm visible and that they can be used. As part of our House adjourned. 691 21 NOVEMBER 2012 Deferred Division 692

Deferred Division Hughes, rh Simon Ollerenshaw, Eric Huhne, rh Chris Opperman, Guy Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Osborne, rh Mr George SOCIAL SECURITY Hunter, Mark Ottaway, Richard That this draft Benefit Cap (Housing Benefit) Regulations Huppert, Dr Julian Parish, Neil 2012, which were laid before this House on 16 July, be approved. Hurd, Mr Nick Patel, Priti The House divided: Ayes 283, Noes 203. Jackson, Mr Stewart Paterson, rh Mr Owen Division No. 103] James, Margot Pawsey, Mark Javid, Sajid Penning, Mike Jenkin, Mr Bernard Penrose, John AYES Johnson, Gareth Perry, Claire Adams, Nigel Drax, Richard Johnson, Joseph Phillips, Stephen Aldous, Peter Duddridge, James Jones, Andrew Pickles, rh Mr Eric Alexander, rh Danny Duncan, rh Mr Alan Jones, rh Mr David Pincher, Christopher Amess, Mr David Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jones, Mr Marcus Poulter, Dr Daniel Andrew, Stuart Dunne, Mr Philip Kawczynski, Daniel Prisk, Mr Mark Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Ellis, Michael Kelly, Chris Pritchard, Mark Bacon, Mr Richard Ellison, Jane Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Pugh, John Baker, Steve Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kirby, Simon Raab, Mr Dominic Baldry, Sir Tony Elphicke, Charlie Knight, rh Mr Greg Reckless, Mark Baldwin, Harriett Eustice, George Kwarteng, Kwasi Redwood, rh Mr John Baron, Mr John Evans, Graham Laing, Mrs Eleanor Rees-Mogg, Jacob Bebb, Guto Evans, Jonathan Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Reevell, Simon Bellingham, Mr Henry Evennett, Mr David Latham, Pauline Reid, Mr Alan Benyon, Richard Fabricant, Michael Laws, rh Mr David Robertson, Mr Laurence Berry, Jake Fallon, rh Michael Leadsom, Andrea Rogerson, Dan Bingham, Andrew Farron, Tim Lee, Dr Phillip Rosindell, Andrew Birtwistle, Gordon Featherstone, Lynne Lefroy, Jeremy Rudd, Amber Blackman, Bob Field, Mark Leigh, Mr Edward Rutley, David Blackwood, Nicola Foster, rh Mr Don Leslie, Charlotte Sandys, Laura Blunt, Mr Crispin Fox,rhDrLiam Lewis, Brandon Scott, Mr Lee Boles, Nick Francois, rh Mr Mark Lewis, Dr Julian Selous, Andrew Bone, Mr Peter Freer, Mike Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Shapps, rh Grant Bottomley, Sir Peter Fuller, Richard Lilley, rh Mr Peter Sharma, Alok Bradley, Karen Garnier, Mark Lloyd, Stephen Shelbrooke, Alec Brady, Mr Graham Gauke, Mr David Lopresti, Jack Shepherd, Mr Richard Brake, rh Tom Gibb, Mr Nick Loughton, Tim Simpson, Mr Keith Bray, Angie Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Luff, Peter Smith, Miss Chloe Bridgen, Andrew Glen, John Lumley, Karen Smith, Henry Brine, Steve Goldsmith, Zac Macleod, Mary Smith, Julian Brooke, Annette Goodwill, Mr Robert Maude, rh Mr Francis Smith, Sir Robert Browne, Mr Jeremy Gove, rh Michael Maynard, Paul Soubry, Anna Bruce, Fiona Graham, Richard McCartney, Jason Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Buckland, Mr Robert Grant, Mrs Helen McIntosh, Miss Anne Spencer, Mr Mark Burns, Conor Gray, Mr James McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stanley, rh Sir John Burns, rh Mr Simon Green, rh Damian McPartland, Stephen Stephenson, Andrew Burrowes, Mr David Greening, rh Justine Menzies, Mark Stevenson, John Burt, Lorely Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Mercer, Patrick Stewart, Bob Byles, Dan Gummer, Ben Metcalfe, Stephen Stewart, Iain Cameron, rh Mr David Gyimah, Mr Sam Miller, rh Maria Stewart, Rory Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hague, rh Mr William Mills, Nigel Streeter, Mr Gary Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Halfon, Robert Milton, Anne Stride, Mel Carmichael, Neil Hames, Duncan Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stuart, Mr Graham Carswell, Mr Douglas Hancock, Matthew Moore, rh Michael Stunell, rh Andrew Cash, Mr William Hands, Greg Mordaunt, Penny Sturdy, Julian Chishti, Rehman Harris, Rebecca Morgan, Nicky Swales, Ian Chope, Mr Christopher Hart, Simon Morris, David Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Clappison, Mr James Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morris, James Swinson, Jo Clark, rh Greg Heald, Oliver Mosley, Stephen Swire, rh Mr Hugo Clegg, rh Mr Nick Heaton-Harris, Chris Mowat, David Syms, Mr Robert Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hemming, John Mulholland, Greg Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Collins, Damian Henderson, Gordon Mundell, rh David Thurso, John Colvile, Oliver Hendry, Charles Munt, Tessa Timpson, Mr Edward Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hermon, Lady Murray, Sheryll Tomlinson, Justin Crabb, Stephen Hinds, Damian Murrison, Dr Andrew Tredinnick, David Crockart, Mike Hoban, Mr Mark Neill, Robert Uppal, Paul Crouch, Tracey Hollingbery, George Newmark, Mr Brooks Vaizey, Mr Edward Davies, Glyn Hollobone, Mr Philip Nokes, Caroline Vara, Mr Shailesh Davies, Philip Hopkins, Kris Norman, Jesse Vickers, Martin Dinenage, Caroline Horwood, Martin Nuttall, Mr David Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Howarth, Sir Gerald O’Brien, Mr Stephen Walker, Mr Robin Doyle-Price, Jackie Howell, John Offord, Dr Matthew Wallace, Mr Ben 693 Deferred Division21 NOVEMBER 2012 Deferred Division 694

Ward, Mr David Williams, Roger Hoey, Kate Pearce, Teresa Watkinson, Angela Williams, Stephen Hopkins, Kelvin Perkins, Toby Weatherley, Mike Williamson, Gavin Hosie, Stewart Pound, Stephen Howarth, rh Mr George Powell, Lucy Wharton, James Willott, Jenny Wheeler, Heather Hunt, Tristram Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Wilson, Mr Rob White, Chris Jamieson, Cathy Reed, Mr Jamie Whittingdale, Mr John Wright, Jeremy Johnson, Diana Reynolds, Emma Wiggin, Bill Wright, Simon Jones, Graham Reynolds, Jonathan Williams, Mr Mark Zahawi, Nadhim Jones, Susan Elan Riordan, Mrs Linda Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Ritchie, Ms Margaret NOES Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Robertson, John Kendall, Liz Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob David, Wayne Khan, rh Sadiq Rotheram, Steve Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Davidson, Mr Ian Lavery, Ian Roy, Lindsay Ali, Rushanara De Piero, Gloria Lazarowicz, Mark Ruane, Chris Allen, Mr Graham Denham, rh Mr John Leslie, Chris Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Anderson, Mr David Dobbin, Jim Lewis, Mr Ivan Sarwar, Anas Ashworth, Jonathan Docherty, Thomas Long, Naomi Sawford, Andrew Bain, Mr William Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Love, Mr Andrew Shannon, Jim Banks, Gordon Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Lucas, Caroline Sharma, Mr Virendra Beckett, rh Margaret Donohoe, Mr Brian H. MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Sheerman, Mr Barry Begg, Dame Anne Doran, Mr Frank Mactaggart, Fiona Sheridan, Jim Benn, rh Hilary Doughty, Stephen Mahmood, Mr Khalid Shuker, Gavin Berger, Luciana Dowd, Jim Malhotra, Seema Simpson, David Blenkinsop, Tom Doyle, Gemma Mann, John Skinner, Mr Dennis Blomfield, Paul Dromey, Jack McCabe, Steve Slaughter, Mr Andy Blunkett, rh Mr David Dugher, Michael McCann, Mr Michael Smith, rh Mr Andrew Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Durkan, Mark McCarthy, Kerry Smith, Nick Brennan, Kevin Eagle, Maria McClymont, Gregg Straw, rh Mr Jack Brown, Lyn Efford, Clive McCrea, Dr William Stringer, Graham Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Ellman, Mrs Louise McDonagh, Siobhain Stuart, Ms Gisela Brown, Mr Russell Esterson, Bill McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Bryant, Chris Fitzpatrick, Jim McDonnell, John Tami, Mark Byrne, rh Mr Liam Flello, Robert McGovern, Jim Teather, Sarah Campbell, Mr Alan Flint, rh Caroline McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Thornberry, Emily Campbell, Mr Gregory Fovargue, Yvonne McKechin, Ann Timms, rh Stephen Campbell, Mr Ronnie Francis, Dr Hywel McKenzie, Mr Iain Trickett, Jon Caton, Martin Gapes, Mike McKinnell, Catherine Twigg, Derek Chapman, Jenny Gardiner, Barry Meacher, rh Mr Michael Umunna, Mr Chuka Clark, Katy Gilmore, Sheila Meale, Sir Alan Vaz, rh Keith Clarke, rh Mr Tom Glass, Pat Mearns, Ian Walley, Joan Coaker, Vernon Glindon, Mrs Mary Miliband, rh Edward Watson, Mr Tom Coffey, Ann Godsiff, Mr Roger Miller, Andrew Watts, Mr Dave Connarty, Michael Goggins, rh Paul Mitchell, Austin Weir, Mr Mike Cooper, Rosie Goodman, Helen Moon, Mrs Madeleine Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Cooper, rh Yvette Greatrex, Tom Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Whitehead, Dr Alan Corbyn, Jeremy Green, Kate Mudie, Mr George Crausby, Mr David Greenwood, Lilian Munn, Meg Williams, Hywel Creagh, Mary Griffith, Nia Murphy, rh Paul Williamson, Chris Creasy, Stella Gwynne, Andrew Murray, Ian Wilson, Sammy Cruddas, Jon Hain, rh Mr Peter Nash, Pamela Winnick, Mr David Cryer, John Hamilton, Mr David O’Donnell, Fiona Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Cunningham, Alex Hanson, rh Mr David Onwurah, Chi Wishart, Pete Cunningham, Mr Jim Harman, rh Ms Harriet Osborne, Sandra Wright, David Cunningham, Sir Tony Harris, Mr Tom Owen, Albert Wright, Mr Iain Curran, Margaret Healey, rh John Dakin, Nic Hendrick, Mark Danczuk, Simon Hilling, Julie Question accordingly agreed to. Darling, rh Mr Alistair Hodgson, Mrs Sharon

141WH 21 NOVEMBER 2012 UK Constituent Parts (EU) 142WH

Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): My hon. Friend Westminster Hall has already made a compelling case in the first few minutes of her contribution. Will she also reflect on the fact that recent Scottish Enterprise figures show that Wednesday 21 November 2012 two thirds of Scotland’s “exports” actually go to the other component parts of the United Kingdom?

[MR DAVID CRAUSBY in the Chair] Ann McKechin: My hon. Friend makes a good point. If Scotland were not part of the EU in a post-separation scenario, obviously its trading relationship with the rest UK Constituent Parts (EU) of the UK would be in question—what criteria, tariffs Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting and so on would be in force? Scotland’s economy relies be now adjourned.—(Joseph Johnson.) heavily on having a stable export market, and many thousands of jobs depend on foreign trade, but the manner in which the Scottish Government have twisted 9.30 am and turned at every corner to avoid a clear answer as to Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): Good morning, what legal advice they had on such questions can only Mr Crausby. It is a great pleasure to have you chairing corrode public trust. I shall give way in the hope that this important debate. the questions may be elucidated. The 2014 referendum on Scotland’s future is a landmark in our constitutional history, although it is extraordinary Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): I am listening carefully that support for the proposition is steadily declining, to what the hon. Lady is saying but, given the increasing even before the introduction of the enabling legislation Euroscepticism in the UK population and what is at Holyrood. The fact that it is occurring at a time of happening in this Parliament, how can she even be sure increasing volatility, at home and globally, makes the that the UK—with or without Scotland—will be a arguments for and against even more contentious. I member of the EU in the next five to 10 years? shall return to volatility later in my remarks, but let me make one observation at the outset: we most definitely Ann McKechin: The hon. Gentleman may be surprised will witness in the next two years a period of relentless to know that on that issue I am united with them. The tricky questions. I noted at the weekend that the university quality of our alliances and partnerships is what will of Dundee is launching a project on “5 Million Questions”, allow Scotland to succeed, which is why I want to be which may take us up to the end of the current century part of a strong European Union, as much as I want to although it is certainly a worthwhile programme. The be part of a strong United Kingdom. vast majority of Scots are clearly unconvinced by the Let us return to the question of our status in Europe. proposition of separation, and will be asking many Every time that the Scottish Government have been complex, multifaceted questions about the effect that asked about the question of status, they have always such a move would have on them, their families, their sought to give the firm impression that continued EU communities and their nation. Ironically, however, in membership was guaranteed and that no real material the Scottish Government are masters of avoiding tricky change in membership obligations would result from questions. In the political arts, they could win numerous separation. One example of that sorry story is the plaudits for their ability to body swerve many difficult interpretation of the Scottish Government ministerial areas of policy over a sustained period. That has served code. That document was apparently altered—in a way them well up to now, but those days are over and, as was that begs even more tricky questions—between the FOI evidenced at the Scottish National party annual conference request being made and the truth being forced out last this year, many of its own members are in for a difficult month. Paragraph 2.35 of the code states, and I emphasise and unsettling experience. the first sentence: My colleague, Catherine Stihler, one of Scotland’s “The fact that legal advice has or has not been given to the Members of the European Parliament, asked a deceptively Scottish Government by the Law Officers and the content of any simple question in a freedom of information request legal advice given by them or anyone else must not be revealed last year, but it has been explosive in its effect and outwith the Scottish Government without the Law Officers’ prior deeply revealing about the lack of transparency at the consent. The only exception to this rule is that it is acknowledged very heart of the Scottish Government. Regardless of publicly that the Law Officers have advised on the legislative how anyone views the European Union, everyone in the competence of Government Bills introduced in the Parliament…Views Chamber today agrees that whether Scotland would given by the Law Officers in their Ministerial capacity are not subject to this restriction.” automatically be an EU member if it separated from the rest of the United Kingdom, and whether it would I am grateful for the comments made by Ian Smart, be required to renegotiate the major terms of its the former president of the Law Society of Scotland, in membership are both key questions on which the public a recent blog, which points out the revelation that legal require clear information. advice given by “anyone else”—not the Scottish Law Officers—does not require the consent of the Law About 70% of Scotland’s exports are to other EU Officers; only the content of that advice must not be nations. Let us not forget that if Scotland were not part disclosed. Ian Smart said: of the EU, it would probably also face renegotiating entry into the World Trade Organisation, which is “And that is, on any view, deliberately the way the code reads responsible for setting the criteria for just about all the for otherwise the first sentence would be the much simpler.” remaining 30% of our export markets, including our The First Minister, however, in his interview on “Scotland valuable whisky market. Tonight” four weeks ago stated: 143WH UK Constituent Parts (EU)21 NOVEMBER 2012 UK Constituent Parts (EU) 144WH

[Ann McKechin] That phrase sounds as though it were written by a lawyer, and as I am a lawyer and a member of the Law “That’s quite clear in the Ministerial code. It’s both the fact of Society of Scotland, I speak with some experience. Will whether it exists, and the content. I would need to clear it with the the Minister confirm whether his Department has received Lord Advocate if I wanted to say that I had not sought legal any information about whether the legal department advice.” was consulted on that document, and whether it asked That is simply not the case if we read the code accurately. his office for advice or information about EU membership Given the outcry about his remarks in the now famous if Scotland were to separate? TV interview with Andrew Neil back in March, we That brings me back to volatility. As other hon. might have thought that the First Minister would have Members have said this morning, the EU is undoubtedly taken the opportunity to reread his own ministerial experiencing the most challenging and volatile period in code before rushing into the TV studio. The tricky its history. Its fiscal policies are under constant stress, question that needs to be answered now is whether the there is significant unrest in many regions caused by First Minister sought legal advice from “anyone else” massive hikes in unemployment and cuts to public before that FOI request or his interview with Andrew services, and there are major differences of opinion in Neil in March. If so, who was that from and what was the political leadership. That is where legal opinion hits said? realpolitik. There may be some clues. On Tuesday, 30 October, Yes Scotland’s latest leaflet states without reservation: the Lord Advocate wrote to Ruth Davidson, MSP. The “We can all see the one thing holding us back—we let someone third paragraph of that letter contains an interesting else take decisions for us.” statement: lf the Scottish Government want our country to remain “As was made clear by the Deputy First Minister the Scottish part of the EU come what may—that seems to be what Government has now requested specific legal advice from the Law Officers on EU membership. As you will be aware legal the hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir) said—the painful advice on many issues is provided by the lawyers in the Scottish truth is that other people will make decisions for us on Government Legal Department…but in relation to certain matters how long the application process will take, the conditions the Government will seek a legal opinion from the Law Officers. for membership, the size of our contribution, our entry That is what is happening in relation to the matter of EU into the eurozone, and our entitlements under the common membership.” agricultural policy and the common fisheries agreement. That same afternoon, Nicola Sturgeon, the Deputy As one small nation in 28, our negotiating position, at First Minister, summed up a debate on this very matter best, will be fairly weak. and, soon after 16.38 in the Official Report, said: “Clearly, if ministers have sought legal advice, the law officers Mr Weir: That is all very interesting, but has the hon. will provide that legal advice, so to reveal that legal advice has Lady bothered to listen to the news from Europe, where been sought from the law officers reveals the fact of such advice the Prime Minister is going to discuss the European and puts us in breach of the ministerial code.”—[Scottish Parliament budget? It seems that the rest of the EU is ganging up to Official Report, 30 October 2012; c. 12755.] cut the UK out of the EU, and to cut the famous rebate Both of those statements cannot be true, however. that everyone goes on about. Catherine Stihler’s inquiry remains whether the Government have been given any legal advice, and on that point there Ann McKechin: I thank the hon. Gentleman for proving is still deafening silence. my case about volatility and disputes in the European The First Minister and his colleagues may argue that, Union. Any union or partnership that lasts a long time when they make contentions on EU membership, they has difficult phases, and this is one. He has proved my are speaking about evidence from a variety of experts—“in point that the negotiations will not involve simply providing terms of the debate” is the phrase most commonly a list—that is what the First Minister always seems to used—but that is not the same as legal advice. They suggest—saying what Scotland would like and expecting know the difference. Some of the people quoted are not people to nod and say, “That’s fine. Don’t worry. That’s lawyers; some have died; and most of the statements okay with us.” That will not happen, and any attempt to seem to have been made prior to the Lisbon treaty, try to prove the opposite shows the weakness of the which made fundamental changes to the European argument. Union’s constitution. None of those represent a legal On the national central bank and financial regulators, opinion, and just as many eminent people disagree with Croatia’s recent entry negotiations show that they are those expert opinions, including no less a person than not tick-box exercises, and again there is no guarantee the current EU President. that other EU members would be attracted to the Here is one simple question the Scottish Government solution that the Scottish Government prefer at the should clarify urgently. Have they already had legal moment of relying on another EU member to provide advice from their legal directorate? It is difficult to both important institutions, and that is if that EU imagine that, when the Scottish Government issued member agreed to that in the first place. their White Paper, “YourScotland, YourVoice: A National Conversation” in 2009, they did not run it past their Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): My own legal department. That document contains examples hon. Friend is making a powerful argument. I remind of ambiguous phrasing in its comments about EU her that the most recent entry to the EU, Croatia, had membership. I draw hon. Members attention to page 110, to satisfy stringent tests about guaranteeing bank deposits, paragraph 8.12: the independence of its central bank, monetary police “Settling the details of European Union membership would and financial security. Does she see anything in any of take place in parallel to independence negotiations with the the plans produced by the Yes Scotland campaign that United Kingdom Government”. deals with any of those points? 145WH UK Constituent Parts (EU)21 NOVEMBER 2012 UK Constituent Parts (EU) 146WH

Ann McKechin: My hon. Friend raises a good point. We have discovered in the last few weeks that the It is understandable, given the financial and economic truth can be difficult to admit, but surely anyone who crisis that the EU has suffered over the past five years, believes that a country’s citizens should be able to make that it would take a precautionary approach on any the right choices also believes that they should be provided banking issue and financial regulation particularly. The with full answers to those tricky questions, because they Scottish Government’s proposals are untested. They will not go away. have never been used by another EU member in the way proposed, and we have no idea how they would work, Mr David Crausby (in the Chair): I will call the Front because we have received no details in response to the Bench Members at about 10.40 am. Although I am not many questions that the Scottish Government have going to impose a time limit, it would be helpful if been asked. Apparently, we must wait until autumn Members kept their contributions to not much more 2013 for the revelation, apparently in tomes. The questions than five minutes. should be asked now if we want a proper analysis and expert opinion not only in our own country, but throughout the EU. We need that information now. 9.49 am Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): It is a Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Crausby, Co-op): As far as I know, Croatia does not have a and I congratulate the hon. Member for Glasgow North particularly large international banking presence—I hope (Ann McKechin) on securing the debate. Although it that I am not being unjust—but Scotland is still the may not be a regular occurrence, I concur with a lot of headquarters not just of some UK banks, but of what she said. international banks. Does that not emphasise that in I confess that I have always been puzzled by the any new treaty, if Scotland were to become independent, Scottish National party’s policy of independence in the EU would be keen to ensure that proper regulatory Europe, or whatever its particular slogan is at the time. arrangements were in place for the Scottish banking Although I profoundly disagree with independence for sector? Scotland, there is logicality in believing that Scotland should be a master of its own destiny: that it should Ann McKechin: My hon. Friend has spent much of break away from a currency, a monetary and fiscal his time campaigning on financial services, because union, and a political union, and decide matters for they are relevant in his constituency. He hits the nail on herself. I do not agree with that, however. I think that the head, because we have a significant financial services the union has been one of the most successful political, sector in Scotland. It is the second largest outside the social and economic entities that the world has ever City of London, and has many jobs, not just in banking, seen, and it would be a tragedy if Scotland split away but in other financial services, such as equity markets from it. There is, however, logic in saying, “We want to and insurance funds. Many of the people who use those be masters of our own destiny and decide policies for funds and many investors live not in Scotland, but in ourselves.” other parts of the United Kingdom. What I find illogical is the argument that being in one There are many questions to be asked about the union is so disadvantageous to Scotland that we should currency that will be used, and the regulations. We can split away, destroying 300 years of shared history and take it as certain that the EU will take a precautionary experience, and then rush straight into an even bigger approach, and will ask for those issues to be tested and one. That is illogical, and I contend that in such a examined in great detail. As yet, the Scottish Government union, Scotland would have a far weaker influence than have not produced a comprehensive document setting it currently has in the United Kingdom. out the proposals. At the moment, they seem to think that the rest of the UK will continue to act as the Mr Weir: I do not understand the hon. Gentleman’s financial regulator, but there is no guarantee that it argument. The UK is part of the European Union and would be tempted to do so. Why would it take on the has surrendered some sovereignty to joint decision making, risks and responsibility for institutions outwith its borders but that is different from an encompassing political and over which this Parliament would have no direct union, which some in the EU want. I presume that he is control or responsibility? The UK Parliament’s risk very much against that, but that is the position in which would increase. Scotland finds itself within the EU, and there is nothing Given the gridlock of other membership requests, illogical in seeking to get out of the United Kingdom in and that other EU states are much less relaxed about order to join together with other nations in the EU, to a national referendums for secession, there is every risk restricted degree. that the application and negotiations could drag on with consequent risks and uncertainty to our economy Iain Stewart: I am tempted to go down the path of and particularly our financial services. I would be interested having a debate on the wider issue of the EU’s direction—I to hear today the Foreign Office’s perspective on such a am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Stone scenario. Will the Minister confirm what the legal standing (Mr Cash) would be only too happy to join in—but I of a separate Scotland would be with the World Trade think I might exceed my five-minute allowance. The Organisation if at the point of secession it was not a point is that if Scotland became an independent member member of the EU? Have the Scottish Government ever of the EU—I will come on to why that will not be a asked his Department for information about that? Has straightforward process—it would be joining an ever- there been any formal dialogue with the EU Commission deepening union. I do not want the United Kingdom to on the proposal for another EU member’s central bank be part of that, but that is what Scotland would be to be Scotland’s bank of last resort? forced to sign up to. Under the terms of the EU treaties, 147WH UK Constituent Parts (EU)21 NOVEMBER 2012 UK Constituent Parts (EU) 148WH

[Iain Stewart] Schengen and the common fisheries policy? What influence would Scotland have to protect her current freedoms? It all new member states are obliged to make the political is all uncertain. and legal commitment to join the economic and monetary As the hon. Member for Glasgow North said, the union, and to adopt the euro as a currency. Scottish Government are making it up as they go along. There is no certainty, which I believe we should have. Mr Weir: That is simply not the case. Under the EU The United Kingdom should remain strong and intact. treaties, a nation has to join the exchange rate mechanism The debate about our position in the EU is a broader II before moving on to the euro. ERM II is voluntary, question; personally, I want to get us back to more of a and in the case of Sweden, it has made it clear that it is common market, and certainly not into a deeper political not moving towards the euro, although it joined the EU and monetary union. However, we are better off fighting later. Scotland would be in the same position. There is this together and not splitting up into component parts, no obligation on Scotland to join the euro. when we would have no certainty and Scotland’s interests would be subsumed into the wider interests of Europe. Iain Stewart: I profoundly disagree with that analysis. Sweden is obligated to join the euro once it has satisfied 9.57 am the economic conditions. That is the position, and I disagree profoundly with the hon. Gentleman’s position. Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): I He has said nothing that dissuades me from the view welcome you to the Chair, Mr Crausby. I am sure that that an independent Scotland would be sucked in to a when you got up this morning you realised you had full economic and monetary union, and that would not picked the short straw in chairing this debate, given be in Scotland’s interests. some of the dreary contributions that we have heard It is far from certain that Scotland would become an thus far. I sometimes think that we should reorganise automatic, independent member of the EU. There is no the furniture when we are debating Scotland’s constitution, precedent for a current EU member state splitting up given that so many hon. Members agree, and that into constituent parts, with the part that broke away everything seems to be put to the Scottish Government becoming a separate member. Therefore, we must look and the SNP.I feel, sometimes, that we should be sitting at what the treaty on European Union says, and article in the Minister’s place—perhaps that would be more 4.2 is clear that the EU must respect the fundamental, helpful, in terms of responding to the debate. constitutional and political structures and the territorial I congratulate the hon. Member for Glasgow North integrity of a member state, which has exclusive competence (Ann McKechin) both on securing this morning’s debate in such matters. The EU cannot therefore recognise a and on turning up on time. We were all here two weeks unilateral declaration of independence by part of a ago, practically in the same spot. It was a shambles. We member state. Furthermore, according to article 49, the were ready to go, but the hon. Member who had secured hypothetical new state would need to request membership the debate came rushing in several minutes late. It and attain the unanimous support of the European sometimes seem as though Labour cannot organise a Council for that request, and have its membership approved Euro-rant in a Belgian brewery. through an accession treaty, to be ratified by the Parliaments Listening to hon. Members’ contributions today, there of all member states. is not exactly the warm glow of positivity—more like If one looks at the political reality of other member the deep chill of relentless negativity, which is what states in Europe, that is far from a foregone conclusion. characterises these debates. Would Spain, for example, agree to it with its issues in Catalonia and the Basque country? Would Belgium, Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): whose constitutional integrity is under question, agree? Will the hon. Gentleman give way? I do not believe that that process would be automatic. I am not suggesting that Scotland could not become an Pete Wishart: I am not giving way to the hon. Gentleman. independent EU member, but I ask at what time and at There are 640 of you guys and only six of us, so I will what cost. Croatia’s accession to the EU has been use my time, if that is all right. mentioned, and that has been going on for over 10 Over the past few weeks, the debate has fallen to a years. Slovenia made an objection to that process, and new all-time low, with some appalling personal attacks. although it was overcome, it took time. Things were said in the Scottish Parliament that would I ask again what the cost to Scotland would be. What never have been allowed by you, Mr Crausby, or the uncertainty would be created for business at a fragile Speaker, and yet, the guys who made such remarks time for the global economy? What else would she have complain about the comments in the online section of to surrender to get membership agreed? I believe that The Scotsman sinking to such a low spectacle. What are euro membership would be inevitable. What about they saying? Not only are they saying that we will not Scotland’s budget contribution, which is a topical issue? get European membership, but according to the former The SNP contends that Scotland has a budget surplus Prime Minister, we will be little more than a British in the United Kingdom. I think that issue is far from colony.According to the right hon. Member for Edinburgh settled, but for the purpose of the argument, let us South West (Mr Darling)—their campaign leader— accept that the SNP is correct and that Scotland pays independence would be nothing more than the road to more into the United Kingdom coffers than she receives “serfdom”. People cannot say too poor, too weak and from it. Does that not mean that Scotland would be too stupid any more; they know that that is not a great forced to pay a much higher contribution to the EU way to enlist the Scottish people’s support. They only budget? Has that been factored into anyone’s calculations? hint at that now. The most comical remark, the one that I do not believe so. What about other issues, such as I have enjoyed most in the last two weeks, was that the 149WH UK Constituent Parts (EU)21 NOVEMBER 2012 UK Constituent Parts (EU) 150WH music that I had spent 15 years making would no longer to European membership, whatever happens to an be my music—British music would not be ours any independent Scotland will happen to the rest of the more—as if music, the ridiculously free-spirited and United Kingdom, but let me reassure all the English wonderful thing that it is, has frontiers or boundaries, Members who are sitting here today: their European but that is what these people are saying. They are place is safe. There is simply no precedent or process to scaremongering on culture. Welcome to the positive kick a constituent part of the European Union out. case for the Union. That just does not happen—there is no way. This fox Of course, the plat du jour this week is scaremongering was effectively shot by Graham Avery of Oxford university, on Europe. That is what they are doing, and doing well. who is a senior adviser at the European Policy Centre in Barely a day goes past without another instalment in Brussels and honorary director general of the European the scaremongering stories, always in association with Commission, when he said to Westminster’s Select their friends in the press. Their message to the Scottish Committee on Foreign Affairs: people when it comes to Europe is, “You cannae dae “For practical and political reasons the idea of Scotland this, we’re no gonna let you do that and don’t even think leaving the EU, and subsequently applying to join it, is not about this!” If I have got their position right, it is feasible.” something like this: “You’re not going to get into Europe. It is not feasible. You’re going to go to the back of the queue behind all the accession states.” That is their position; I think that Ann McKechin: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? that is their top line. But if we do somehow manage to get into Europe, it will be on the worst possible terms Pete Wishart: I am not giving way to the hon. Lady. and conditions. I think that I am right in saying that this There is only one part of Europe that has left the is their position. Then if we do manage to get into European Union—the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash) Europe and on the worst possible terms and conditions, will recall this—Greenland. It took something like two we will be forced to join the euro—but do not worry, years for Greenland to get out of the European Union, because we will not get into Europe anyway. and it wanted to go. It had a vote that said that it wanted to leave the European Union. It was only after Ian Murray: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? complex negotiations that it was allowed to go. Pete Wishart: I said that I was not giving way. These people believe that somehow Scotland will be stripped of its European Union membership and all the These people need to get their act together on the European rights that we have built up in the course of scaremongering, so that we can understand what they 40 years. Scotland is actually enthusiastic about Europe, are saying. unlike the hon. Member for Stone and his hon. Friends. The subject of this debate is the constituent parts of It is absolutely absurd to suggest that an independent the UK and EU membership. Scotland is a constituent Scotland would not be welcomed with open arms to the part of the United Kingdom. We are currently a member European Union. We are talking about oil-rich Scotland, of the European Union. After independence, we will fisheries-rich Scotland, renewable-energy-rich Scotland. continue to be a member of the European Union. We Scotland complies with every single piece of European are in the European— legislation and is enthusiastic about its European membership. The idea that Scotland would be kicked Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab): Will the hon. out of the European Union is totally absurd. Gentleman give way? These people also say that we will be forced into euro membership. That was blown out of the water by Dr Fabian Pete Wishart: I am not giving way to the hon. Gentleman. Zuleeg, chief economist at the European Policy Centre, We are a member of the European Union because the who reminded the Scottish Parliament’s European and UK took us into the European Union, the old EEC, External Relations Committee that euro membership is back in 1973, but the European Union is not the only based on strict criteria. My hon. Friend the Member for union. The UK is a union. It is based on the Act of Angus (Mr Weir) is absolutely right about this. There Union, which brought together the Scottish and English are five conditions for joining the euro. One is membership Parliaments three centuries ago, so when Scotland secures of the exchange rate mechanism. Joining the ERM is its independence, the Act of Union falls and there will voluntary. That is why Sweden is not in the euro. I do be two successor states. That is what will happen. Whatever not know how many times we have to explain this to happens to an independent Scotland will happen to the Labour Members. Scotland will not join the euro, because rest of the United Kingdom. It will be just like what Sweden has not joined the euro, because it is based on happened with Czechoslovakia: the Czech Republic ERM membership. and Slovakia were treated as two new nations. These There is a threat to Scotland’s European membership. people sometimes like to use the example of Russia— It does not come from an independent Scotland. It comes from the Union; it comes from the Westminster Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab): Tories, because they are at it again. They are even Will the hon. Gentleman give way? prepared to defeat their Government to ensure that they get this country out of the European Union. I looked at Pete Wishart: I am not giving way to the hon. Lady. William Hill yesterday. It is offering odds of 2:1 that by These people sometimes use the example of Russia 2020 there will be a referendum on the UK’s membership when it comes to these situations, but not even the most of the EU—a straight in-out referendum. It is offering rabid cybernat has ever compared the United Kingdom odds of 6:1, which I think are very generous, that the to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. That is how UK will be out of the EU by 2020. That is the threat to ridiculous their argument has become. When it comes Scotland’s EU membership. It does not come from an 151WH UK Constituent Parts (EU)21 NOVEMBER 2012 UK Constituent Parts (EU) 152WH

[Pete Wishart] that that in itself will not create the legal and constitutional consequences that would flow from that political decision. independent Scotland; it comes from the Westminster The reality is that we then have to look at the 1972 Act. Tories. Westminster Tories are running absolutely terrified All the obligations under section 2, through our own of the UK Independence party, which is now odds-on enactment here, of which Scotland is currently a part, favourite to win the next European election. That is would have to be dealt with. It will be an extremely what is informing Government policy when it comes to complex business to deal with the issues between the Europe. What we have now is a surly, sulky UK as a United Kingdom and Scotland, let alone between Scotland member of the European Union. That is what Scotland and the European Union or the United Kingdom and has to put up with as it secures its EU membership. The the European Union. UK is looking for the “Out” door— I would like to refer on the record to the extremely good—extremely well written—note from the House of Ann McKechin: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Commons Library. I mention that on the record because I think that many people who will want to consider this Pete Wishart: I am not giving way to the hon. Lady; I question will do well to look at that note if they can get have told her that. access to it. It draws together a lot of the complications That is what we have in terms of Scotland’s EU that arise in international law and constitutional law. It membership represented by the UK. What would be includes a lot of discussion about the allegations made better? An independent Scotland, independent in Europe against the First Minister; I will not enter that debate, and seated at the top table. Our number of MEPs would but simply say that there are complex questions. be increased from six to 13; there would be 13 champions As my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes putting Scotland’s case. That is what Scotland needs; South (Iain Stewart) pointed out, there is no provision that is what Scotland requires. in the European treaties for the secession of states. He There is a clear choice facing the Scottish people mentioned article 4.2 and the unanimity of all 27 member when it comes to European Union membership: states. The European Commission made some comments independence in Europe, a seat at the top table, our own on that in response to an MEP, but that was on the basis representation in Europe, or isolation in a United Kingdom of the thinking then. If I may say, having read all the that is on the way out of the European Union and papers, I do not think that there is a settled view about almost relaxed about its decline and failure. I know the what would happen. choice that the Scottish people will make in 2014. It will The hon. Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) be the positive choice—it will be for Scotland’s independence is right to say that there would be massive uncertainty. and national liberation. For example, in respect of financial regulation, the jurisdiction has been already transferred, extremely unwisely, 10.6 am to the European institutions, but the consequences are Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): I am fascinated by that it is already being done in relation to the City of the line that has just been taken with respect to the London with serious consequences, of an unlawful situation of the United Kingdom in relation to the nature, for voting rights between ourselves and member European Union. There are many of us who believe states in the eurozone. There are so many uncertainties that the time has come not only to have a referendum, that the issue will have to be given much more consideration. but to leave the existing treaties. The reality is that 56% There is also the question of the repeal of the Act of of the British people have recently indicated that that is Union. None of the legal consequences of the referendum, what they would like, and that raises very interesting even if there was a yes vote, are capable of being and very important questions. It is also highly relevant unravelled until we have got to grips with the constitutional to what is going on here in this debate today with implications of the matters I mention. respect to Scotland. Of course, there is also the question Despite the fact that we have one and a half hours, of Northern Ireland and of Wales, neither of which has going into all the questions today would be far too even been touched on so far in the debate. One thing complicated, so that is all I want to say. I put down a that we have to remember is that the— marker that a yes vote will be monumentally bad for the UK, monumentally bad for Scotland and monumentally Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): bad for the people governed under the Act of Union. I Does the hon. Gentleman agree with me that, having and many others take that view, and I think it will listened to the very eloquent disquisition on the place of prevail. Scotland at the top table, and given this week’s There are implications for the European Scrutiny announcement about the G8 coming to Northern Ireland, Committee, in that it must look at all the legislation as it we can look forward, in the halcyon days in the future applies to the UK, in respect of those matters that apply of Scotland’s independence, to a G9 coming to Northern to it under the Standing Orders. I will leave my contribution Ireland, with Scotland at the top table? at that. The complications regarding Scotland have not been thought through. It is not only an emotional Mr Cash: That is an extremely apposite remark, and I question or even a purely political question, but a am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for it. question of grave uncertainty. The more the vote tends One thing that needs to considered is the implications towards no—the direction that public opinion seems to that would arise for the European Communities Act be going—the better. 1972, which has not yet been mentioned, because of course if we have a referendum and if the vote is yes—at Mr David Crausby (in the Chair): To accommodate the moment, that seems extremely unlikely, but I will all Members who wish to speak, it would be appreciated not presume to say that it will not happen—the reality is if Members kept their remarks to four minutes. 153WH UK Constituent Parts (EU)21 NOVEMBER 2012 UK Constituent Parts (EU) 154WH

10.13 am way to tell the audience, in no uncertain manner, that an Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): independent Scotland would not implement the Schengen Thank you for that challenge, Mr Crausby. I thank you agreement. Like so many other assertions made by the for presiding over the debate today and I congratulate SNP on European issues, it seems that it was an assurance my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North (Ann that the SNP is perhaps unable to effect. If my interpretation McKechin) on securing this important debate. I am of the matter is wrong, I am sure that the Minister will pleased to follow the previous two contributions and be delighted to point out the folly of my ways. the rant from my neighbour, the hon. Member for Perth My third and final point is linked to the UK’s general and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart). I must admit that opt-outs and rebate. Professor Hazell says: there is significant confusion in many people’s minds “An independent Scotland would not inherit the opt-out the and I hope that the Minister will take the opportunity UK negotiated for the Treaty of Maastricht.” to blow away that confusion when he gets to his feet. There are also the benefits to the UK from the 1984 We have already heard that Scotland benefits from rebate negotiations, which, according to a House of being part of the EU through the UK’s membership, Commons paper, result in Scotland’s contribution to but it is not clear whether an independent Scotland the EU being £16 per head. It would be more than would become a member of the EU, and the contributions £90 per head without the rebate. It is unreasonable to from SNP Members today do not make it any clearer. A assume that Scotland would benefit from similar treatment long list of people, whom I feel that I should be able to on rebates. trust, suggest that Scottish membership would not be SNP Members’ claims of automatic entry into the automatic and might be subject to application, queuing, EU, which they presumably feel would happen on the objections and delays. Those individuals include: José same day as any transition to an independent state, do Manuel Barroso, President of the European Commission; not seem to have the support of the people needed to Romano Prodi, a former President of the Commission; make it happen. The President of the Commission does Joe Borg, a former European Commissioner; Dr Jo not agree with them. The vice-president of the European Murkens, European and constitutional law expert; and Commission and Commissioner for Justice does not Professor Robert Hazell, University college London. seem to agree with them. The Spanish Foreign Minister Will the Minister say whether those are trustworthy does not seem to agree with them. Cyprus does not sources and whether their comments are appropriate, or seem to agree with them. That does not appear to be a should I trust the contribution from the hon. Member very good start. for Perth and North Perthshire? Alex Salmond is desperate to ride roughshod over the As has been said, the First Minister wants to retain Electoral Commission’s role in the forthcoming referendum, the pound sterling. We all know the potential difficulties and he appears to feel that he can do the same with and drawbacks that would have for monetary policy in Europe and EU membership or take the Scottish people an independent Scotland. If Scotland becomes independent, for mugs. He cannot be a player and a referee in the and an EU member at some point in future, perhaps the referendum. I tell Members here and now that there is First Minister will not get his way. Is it the Minister’s no way that the powers of Europe will allow him to understanding that between 2004 and 2007 every accession carry on in his delusional approach to future European state also agreed to join the euro? negotiations, and there is no way that the Scottish As has been mentioned, we recently discussed the people will be conned by that shambolic and disrespectful accession of Croatia to the EU in the House. In the approach to such an important issue for Scottish economic negotiations, significant emphasis was placed on Croatia prosperity. being able to regulate its own financial institutions. How can Scotland do that? Alex Salmond wants to 10.19 am retain the pound and rejoin the EU, but if he keeps the pound, he will not have an independent national central Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): The hon. Member bank, because he wants to use the Bank of England. for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) published That in itself may prevent him from using the pound a speech that he would have made, entitled, “The Speech and force an independent Scotland into the euro on day They Feared”. The scariest thing about it is that his one. incoherent, negative rants are actually scripted. He is fond of attacking the pro-UK cause as “negative”, but People appreciate the benefits of our opt-out from unbelievably that speech attacked the negativity of others the Schengen agreement, which was touched on this before they had even made their contributions. We will morning. If and when an independent Scotland is successful take no lessons today from the SNP about talking in its application to join the EU, I am concerned that it Scotland down, when he does just that in a prepared will have to comply with the agreement. Will the Minister speech. confirm that new EU member states are bound to implement the Schengen agreement as part of the existing Today, I want to be as clear as possible about Scotland’s body of EU law? If that is the case, surely Scotland future in the EU and to bust some of the myths put would have to make all the efforts it could to police its about by the SNP—myths dressed up as reality and borders to ensure security, not only for itself, but for the opinion dressed up as fact. Let us start with some words rest of the Schengen-operating countries. Because the from the hon. Gentleman’s speech: rest of the UK is not signed up to Schengen, that would “When Scotland becomes an independent nation Scotland will mean border controls between Scotland and the remaining remain a member of the European Union.” UK, including the land border with England. He did not write that Scotland might have to apply, that That issue was raised in a debate I took part in there will be a process and that the process carries risks, recently in Scotland. Keith Brown MSP, the housing but that, Minister in the Scottish Government, went out of his “Scotland will remain a member”. 155WH UK Constituent Parts (EU)21 NOVEMBER 2012 UK Constituent Parts (EU) 156WH

[Anas Sarwar] who do business in Scotland. It is not good enough for the SNP to say, “Maybe it is aye; maybe it is no.” It is That is an assertion, not a fact. It is an opinion and not good enough for them not to be straight and honest nothing more. with the people of Scotland on the risks of independence. That is a completely different position from that of It might also mean, although we cannot be sure, Scotland Graham Avery, a senior member of St Anthony’s college losing its opt-out on Schengen. For people listening or and a senior adviser at the European Policy Centre, watching outside this House who are not familiar with whom the First Minister and the hon. Gentleman have what that would mean for Scotland and Scots, let us be quoted. The SNP asserts that his comments justify its clear: the Schengen opt-out means that travellers from position. Indeed, it positively hangs on the man’s every EU states entering the UK are subject to border and word. I see the hon. Gentleman nodding in agreement. passport controls, and losing that opt-out would mean The First Minister has said, free entry into Scotland with all the implications of “I have read out Graham Avery’s credentials. Given that he is that. an honorary director general of the European Commission, I There may or may not be controls, and the hon. suspect he knows rather more about these issues.”—[Scottish Member for Perth and North Perthshire and Alex Salmond Parliament Official Report, 1 November 2012; c. 12926.] cannot be sure whether or not there will be—they I agree with the First Minister, so let us examine what cannot state it as fact. For the 800,000 Scots living in Graham Avery actually said. First, he has said: England and the thousands of Scottish families with “The EU has no historical precedent for dealing with Scottish relatives in England or Wales, “not sure” is simply not independence.” good enough. Whatever else happens in the debate on Uncomfortable as it is, we now know—if we did not Scotland’s future, the people of Scotland deserve answers, already—that anything the SNP says on the question of honesty and transparency, and a debate based on facts, EU membership is based on opinion, not fact or precedent. not assertions, and on reality, not myths. He has also said: “Scotland has been in the EU for 40 years; and its people have 10.24 am acquired rights as European citizens.” Note that Mr Avery is very clear in his choice of words: Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): It is a the people of Scotland might well have acquired rights, pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Crausby. but that is not the same as the legal entity that would be I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow the separate state of an independent Scotland. North (Ann McKechin) on securing the debate. I associate myself with the comment by the hon. Member for Perth In his next paragraph, Mr Avery said that and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) when he congratulated “negotiations on the terms of…membership would take place in her on turning up on time this morning. the period between the referendum and the planned date of independence. We do not know at this stage how long that period Scotland’s membership of the EU has been discussed would be; complicated negotiations…would have to take place”. in pubs up and down Scotland during the past few Therein lies the rub of any deal: six words to ring alarm weeks. That is not, sadly, because it has been in the bells in the heart of the pro-separation camp— news, but because of the Scottish Government’s failed attempt to keep secret the fact that the First Minister “negotiations on the terms of…membership”. lied to the Scottish people about seeking advice on the For even if we accept everything that anybody in the matter. In fact, he did not just lie about seeking legal SNP has ever said about Scotland’s being welcomed as advice. We know that he was told by his Lord Advocate a member of the EU following an application to join, it and Solicitor General that a separate Scotland would is the terms of membership that are important. Those not automatically be an EU state. Not only Scottish terms are crucial to the rights of our citizens and the Government lawyers say that. In the past two weeks, a security of our borders, and are essential for determining plethora of expert opinion has confirmed what everyone, whether we use the euro. For no one—not the hon. including the SNP, already knows—that Scotland would Member for Perth and North Perthshire nor even Alex not be guaranteed membership of the European Union. Salmond—can say with certainty what will happen. It was incredibly kind of the hon. Member for Perth Let us refer again to Mr Avery. He said: and North Perthshire to give me and the entire world “In accession negotiations with non-member countries the EU advance notice of his speech today. He did not stray far has always strongly resisted other changes or opt-outs from the from what was on his website two weeks ago, when he basic Treaties”. published even the well-rehearsed bad jokes that we The expert on whom the SNP is so fond of relying is were robbed of the chance of hearing. In publishing holing its argument below the waterline. What terms that, he single-handedly wiped out any lingering notion would Scotland be forced to accept on application? Not of the SNP’s ears being open to the facts. His only the SNP’s terms, but those of other member nations. intent in this debate has been to propagate his party’s The common theme that runs through such contradictions myths. His speech was without substance when he wrote is that nationalists assume the right to make their own it two weeks ago, and it had not matured well by today. rules and that everyone else will abandon theirs to abide I cannot understand why he still feels that a Scotland by those of the nationalists, and that every member separate from the UK would automatically be a member state will act not in its own country’s or citizens’ interests, of the EU, when everyone outside his party disagrees. but in the interests only of Scotland. We all know that Most of the people in this room are here because they the opposite is true. share my love and concern for Scotland, when we have a That means that Scotland might well be forced to join Scottish Government who have repeatedly been caught the euro. I accept that it may not, but it might. That is being dishonest about the facts that will inform voters’ not good enough for the people of Scotland or those choice in 2014. They simply cannot be trusted. Scotland 157WH UK Constituent Parts (EU)21 NOVEMBER 2012 UK Constituent Parts (EU) 158WH benefits from being in the UK in the EU, and Scottish 10.29 am people deserve to have laid before them the actual facts, rather than the Scottish Government’s version of them. Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): I It is their responsibility to provide clarity and evidence congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow about their proposals for the future, not to waste taxpayers’ North (Ann McKechin) on securing this debate and on money on unnecessary court cases. The First Minister speaking with such authority and passion in her opening misled the Scottish people, but now we are expected to remarks. One of my best decisions since being elected to trust him. this House three years ago was last November when I asked the Commons Library to publish a paper on the In contrast, the UK Government have made it clear implications for Scotland of the debate around separation, that they have received legal advice. They have stated in particular what it meant for continuing—or perhaps that, in the event of Scotland separating from the UK, not continuing as we have uncovered in this debate—EU the residual UK would be considered by the EU to be membership. Indeed, many of the points in that document the continuing state; and Scotland would legally be a will form the basis of the rest of the debate today. seceded, new state and therefore not a member state. I would appreciate it if the Minister confirmed that he As a member of the Labour Movement for Europe, I agrees with the President and vice-president of the care passionately about our having a positive engagement European Commission that a new state wanting to join with the European Union. Scotland can best protect, the EU has to apply like any other. embrace and progress its national interests as part of a large state—the United Kingdom—which has a good Pete Wishart: Two new states. degree of influence, and which, under the new arrangements, will have proportionately more votes within the Council. Pamela Nash: No, not the residual UK. The process for new accession countries—which Scotland Earlier this year, Salmond declared that would clearly be, according to the consensus of advice “the negotiation on Scotland’s representation would be conducted coming from the European Commission and the important from within the European Union.”—[Scottish Parliament Official statement from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office Report, 19 January 2012; c. 5500.] a couple of weeks ago—is arduous. As we explored in a That is not impossible, but it is not automatic, and it debate in the main Chamber a couple of weeks ago, would be a difficult negotiation. There is no need to Croatia went through stringent steps in establishing the take only my word for that; notable members of the independence of its central bank, to show that proper European political community and academics have said procedures were in place to control its financial system, the same over the past few months. and to prove that it had a system to regulate and Accession would need to be approved by all 27—soon guarantee deposits. None of those concepts has been to be 28—member states. Although Spain has not dealt with in the proposals from those who argue for confirmed that it would block an application from Scotland to separate from the rest of the UK. Indeed, Scotland, it has said that we would need to join the none of the countries that has acceded to the European queue. It is difficult to see how the Spanish Government Union has relied on the central bank and financial could reconcile their position on Catalonia with a new institutions of another state to show that it has sufficient Scottish state joining the European Union. financial independence in its own territory. The position There is also the issue of the euro. Contrary to the put forward by the Scottish Government simply does proclamations of the hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir), not add up. all new EU member states have been required to sign up I want to put on record a couple of points that are to the eurozone. Sweden joined the EU in 1995, but it is important in relation to international constitutional still obliged, when conditions are met, to join the euro. law—perhaps a reference back to my old life before I became a Member of this House. The Scottish Government Mr Weir: Will the hon. Lady give way? have relied on a couple of arguments: one in relation to Pamela Nash: No, I will not give way to the hon. the Vienna convention; and the other in relation to EU Gentleman, because his colleague, the hon. Member for citizenship. Perth and North Perthshire, did not have the courtesy First, on the Vienna convention, the Scottish Government to give way to any of mine. have said that Scotland would sign up to all the treaty The UK is one of only three countries that currently commitments that the United Kingdom has at the benefit from an opt-out. The SNP has said that a moment, but, frankly, that is fatuous. The Vienna separate Scotland could opt out of the euro, but the convention is primarily concerned with the process of evidence suggests otherwise. There is also the small decolonisation. Indeed, the International Law Commission matter of the Schengen agreement, and of many other withdrew a category of quasi newly independent states opt-outs from which Scotland now benefits as part of to deal with cases of secession. A new state is not the UK. The Schengen agreement would involve passport entitled automatically to become a party to the constituent controls at the border with England, as we have heard treaty and a member of an organisation as a successor in the Scottish Affairs Committee. The SNP has simply state simply because at the date of secession, its territory dismissed that as scaremongering, because that does was subject to the treaty and within the ambit of the not fit with its campaign strategy, but the evidence organisation. That principle, which is recognised in again suggests otherwise. article 4 of the Vienna convention and is the declared In conclusion, this issue is too important for the legal opinion of the International Law Commission, is people of Scotland to be continually misled from one entirely contrary to the position of the Scottish Government. side of the debate. I hope that today’s debate helps Citizenship of the EU is not distinct from being a inform them, and helps them make an important decision citizen of the member state. It does not provide a legal in two years’ time. basis for re-entry to the European Union. As other 159WH UK Constituent Parts (EU)21 NOVEMBER 2012 UK Constituent Parts (EU) 160WH

[Mr William Bain] negotiations as part of a new treaty. The same could be said of many other issues that have been referred to in Members have said, that must come about as a result of this debate. a process of negotiation and unanimity with what will Such issues may eventually be resolved. However, in soon be 27 other member states. When the Soviet Union trying to resolve them, there are two factors that will was dissolved, only Russia was able to succeed to most have to be taken into account. As a strong supporter of international agreements. [Interruption.] I am not saying UK and Scottish membership of the EU, I can say that that the United Kingdom is remotely like the Soviet the EU does not do things quickly. We all know that it Union. It would be absurd for any Member of this does not resolve outstanding issues quickly, because it is House to make an assertion that the two states were in a complex organisation with many member states. any way comparable. This debate matters hugely. The referendum must proceed on the basis of fact and law, not assertion and Mr Weir: Following the precedent of Greenland, will bluff. The debate has been important in distinguishing the hon. Gentleman not accept that even if he is correct those two characteristics this morning. I care passionately and there will have to be negotiations, those negotiations about our future. If we want Scotland to thrive within will be done not outwith the EU but within, as happened Europe, that means that we will continue—and I hope with Greenland when it wanted to leave the EU. Scotland that people will vote to have us thriving—within the will still be a constituent part of the EU after independence United Kingdom. until negotiations are complete.

Mark Lazarowicz: That is an arguable position. I will 10.35 am not go into that debate now. My point is that there will Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ have to be lengthy negotiations whatever happens. Moreover, Co-op): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for wherever those negotiations take place in an organisational Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) on securing this sense, they will be the subject of horse-trading and of important debate today. It is not surprising that those give and take. Let us take, for example, the fisheries who have different views on the relationship between policy. If the SNP wanted to achieve its objective in Scotland and the UK should also try to find different relation to the fisheries policy, another country somewhere arguments to support their position about Scotland’s in the EU would demand something else. If the SNP relationship within the European Union. There are were to get the opt out of Schengen, which it seems to arguments on both sides that draw on various legal want, someone else in the EU would want to achieve authorities. The arguments put forward by people such something else. Even with goodwill on all sides, which as my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East may be a matter of some question given that other (Mr Bain) are much stronger than those that have been member states might not wish to encourage easy secession, put forward by the SNP. None the less, I accept that to put it mildly, from another member state, this is a arguments can be found from various sources to support process that will be lengthy and complex. That is why it different positions in the debate. Of course this is not is right to point that out and right to ask the question, just a legal and constitutional argument. Ultimately, “At the end of the day, would the benefit from leaving whatever the legal position is, it is also a political issue the UK be worth the substantial negotiations and the that the European Union will have to face if Scotland period of time that would be spent in undertaking those were to become independent. Whatever side of the negotiations?” More importantly, it also means that it is argument one takes, it is inevitably the case that if only reasonable to ask another question: “What would Scotland were to be independent, whether or not one be the outcome of this process?” regards it as one of the successor states to the UK or as For the SNP to suggest that even asking those questions a new state, there would have to be a new treaty. That is is in some sense disloyal to Scotland does a disservice to undoubtedly the case whatever one’s legal analysis of the people of Scotland, who are asking those questions the position. themselves. They want to know at the end of the process The new treaty would require a negotiating process, what will be the relationship of Scotland with the EU? and we have heard today a number of the issues that To know what that relationship would be, we need to would have to be clarified and resolved in that process. ask the questions and we need to try to get some There are the institutional relationships and structures answers from the Scottish Government and the SNP. of the EU, internal matters such as the rota for which We then need to find out from debates and discussions country takes over the presidency, and the number of with other European states what the likely response MEPs and the number of votes. Even those matters would be to the demands coming from the Scottish have in the past been the subject of many years of Government and the SNP if independence were to be negotiation in relation to new treaties. supported in a referendum. There are also much weightier issues, such as the UK Once we have that information, the Scottish people rebate and whether Scotland would succeed to some can decide in the run-up to the referendum whether share of that, which would require substantial negotiation. they should support independence or oppose it because There is also the common fisheries policy. Given the of what I believe is the situation—the fact that we SNP’s position on fisheries issues over recent years, one would be worse off in a smaller member state, even if assumes that it would want to see the repatriation of the that smaller state were able at the end of the day to enter common fisheries policy towards an independent Scotland. into and complete negotiations, than if we were part of One cannot imagine that that is something that can be a larger member state, with all the negotiating strength simply agreed within negotiations in a matter of weeks that we have at the moment and that I would not want or months. It will clearly require considerable and lengthy to see us lose. 161WH UK Constituent Parts (EU)21 NOVEMBER 2012 UK Constituent Parts (EU) 162WH

10.41 am (Gordon Banks) has made clear, the European Commission President has also stated the clear facts. He has said Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab): recently: It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Crausby, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the “A new state, if it wants to join the EU, has to apply to become Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) on securing a member of the EU, like any state.” this debate. Mr Weir: The hon. Lady keeps going on about new It is the passionate belief of the Labour party that the states, but the point is that Scotland is already a member United Kingdom is stronger together and that the United of the EU. We have already cited the position of Greenland. Kingdom is stronger in the world as a member of the Scotland is not a new state; it is already a member of the European Union. The referendum on Scottish independence EU; we have rights as European citizens, as has been in 2014 is an incredibly serious matter that will affect all said by other experts; and we will not be starting from of us in the United Kingdom and, as has been stressed the same place as Croatia, which keeps being mentioned by several of my hon. Friends, when the Scottish people by Labour Members. vote in that referendum they deserve to have at their disposal the full facts about the implications of a separate Scotland. Emma Reynolds: I beg to differ with the hon. Gentleman. The four nations of the United Kingdom are a member Unfortunately, far from providing clarity about the of the European Union, by virtue of being part of the facts, the Scottish Government have created a great deal United Kingdom. I will quote another European of confusion about the potential consequences of Scottish Commission President, Romano Prodi, who was a very separation for Scotland’s relationship with the European respected President. He confirmed that Union. It is pretty extraordinary—indeed, it beggars belief—that, as has already been mentioned by my hon. “a newly independent region would, by the fact of its independence, Friend the Member for Glasgow North, in response to become a third country with respect to the European Union and the treaties would, from the day of its independence, not apply a freedom of information request from one of our any more in its territory.” colleagues in the European Parliament, the Labour MEP Catherine Stihler, the Scottish First Minister initially Beyond the pronouncements of European Commission said that he would not disclose legal advice, only for Presidents current and past, there is the brutal truth him to be contradicted by the deputy First Minister of that the SNP must face up to—that this decision about Scotland who said that such legal advice had not even a separate Scotland’s membership of the European been sought, let alone received. Union would be a political decision and one taken by all of the other 27 member states, who are soon to be 28. Ann McKechin: Just in the last hour, it has been announced in the Court of Session papers regarding I have to say to the hon. Gentleman—he should listen that FOI request that the Scottish Government stated to this carefully—that, as has already been stressed in that to reveal whether or not they had received legal this debate, the pronouncements by the Spanish Foreign advice would cause mischief. That is an extraordinary Minister are not encouraging. That is hardly surprising. statement, given the Scottish National Party’s supposed My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North has links with the people of Scotland and given their ability already pointed out that the context in which we find to know what the facts of that case are. Does my hon. ourselves in the European Union is one in which we are Friend agree that that lack of transparency, which going through the most challenging and volatile period included taunting people for the number of FOI requests in European history. In September, 1.5 million Catalans that they had put in to the Scottish Government, is took to the streets in Barcelona in an independence indicative of a Government who are actually scared of rally. telling the truth? Mr Cash: Will the hon. Lady give way? Emma Reynolds: That lack of transparency is of concern to all of us, and it has blown a hole in the Emma Reynolds: I will give way, in a minute. credibility of what the First Minister has said on this It is therefore unsurprising that the Spanish Government issue. are concerned about any precedent being set and it is The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire equally unsurprising that the Spanish Foreign Minister (Pete Wishart) has made a speech today, which I have recently told the Spanish Senate that an independent had the fortune—or misfortune—to have read before Scotland would need to “join the queue” and negotiate the debate, in which he made some strange references to its accession as a new member state. In addition, as the giant pandas and “The X Factor”, but remarkably he hon. Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart) made no reference to the European treaties and perhaps set out in his very eloquent speech, there are other EU more tellingly he also did not refer to any other European member states that would also have great concerns Union member state. If he had cared to take a look at about any precedent being set by Scotland; Belgium is them, he would have seen that those treaties make it one of them. Furthermore, the EU member states that very clear that new member states must apply for do not wish to recognise the independence of Kosovo— membership of the European Union. Article 52 of the namely Cyprus, Greece, Romania, Slovakia and Spain— treaty on European Union lists the members of the would be concerned about a precedent being set by European Union, including the UK, and article 49 of Scotland. It is within that context that the framework of that treaty states that new member states must apply for any hypothetical case in which an independent Scotland—if membership of the European Union. Moreover, as my there were one—applied to join the European Union hon. Friend the Member for Ochil and South Perthshire must be seen. 163WH UK Constituent Parts (EU)21 NOVEMBER 2012 UK Constituent Parts (EU) 164WH

[Emma Reynolds] interests of the devolved Administrations when formulating the UK’s position on EU negotiations that touch on Unfortunately—I say this with regret—there is areas of policy that fall to the Scottish and Welsh enlargement fatigue in the European Union. For example, Governments and the Northern Ireland Executive. That France has said that for any future accession beyond is good for people in businesses in Northern Ireland, that of Croatia there will be a referendum in France. Scotland and Wales, as well as in England; it means that Two weeks ago, we discussed the case of Croatia and we they all have a strong voice in the formulation of policy know that for a period of 10 years there has been that matters to them. negotiation about Croatia’s accession, and the last member state to join the EU in less than five years was Finland, which joined in 1995. Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP): Will the Minister give way? Consequently, it is absolutely clear that the SNP and the Scottish Government have no basis on which to make the claim that Scotland’s membership of the Mr Swire: The hon. Gentleman was not even in the European Union would be automatic. They also have debate. no basis on which to make the claim—made by the The voting weight, capability and credibility of the First Minister in the interview with Andrew Neil earlier UK’s negotiations in the EU are mobilised in the service this year—that a separate Scotland would also inherit of all UK citizens. However, that does not mean the the United Kingdom’s opt-out from the single currency devolved Administrations are involved in EU policy and Schengen. The facts fly in the face of that assertion. only when we are coming up with an agreed negotiating There has been no member state since 1973 that has position for the UK. The Government have been open negotiated an opt-out, since the agreement in Maastricht, to having Ministers from the devolved Administrations from the single currency. With regard to Schengen, an in the room, where appropriate, during the negotiations opt-out from that agreement would have to be negotiated. themselves. It is also clear that Scotland would have to negotiate its own contribution to the European Union budget, The current devolution arrangements allow the special and according to the House of Commons Library— circumstances of Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales [Interruption.] Maybe the SNP Members want to listen to be championed by one of the largest and most to the objective facts, as set out by the Library. According influential member states. Scottish independence, with to the House of Commons Library, without a rebate a complex accession negotiation and no guarantee of Scotland’s contribution to the European Union is likely favourable terms of membership at the end of it, would to rise from £16 a head to £92 a head. inevitably put a stop to that. Those advocating splitting off from the UK need to be clear about what that Leaving the United Kingdom would leave a separate means in practice and to use evidence to set out their Scotland in limbo in Europe. There would be no automatic position. accession and no automatic opt-outs. Instead, there would be a sensitive and difficult negotiation with the As we have heard this morning, some advocate a 27—soon to be 28—other member states of the European fundamental reworking of the existing constitutional Union. settlement that so benefits the people of the UK. Those who argue for an independent Scotland suggest that only independence will give their nation a voice in 10.49 am Europe. Their argument is underpinned by the assertion—it The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth is only an assertion—that an independent Scotland Office (Mr Hugo Swire): It is a pleasure to serve under would simply continue in membership of the EU, you this morning, Mr Crausby. May I, too, congratulate automatically inheriting the same arrangements that the hon. Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) pertain to the UK now. on securing this important debate? May I also congratulate We learned only a few weeks ago, and we heard again hon. Members on both sides on their contributions and this morning—the SNP was forced to reveal this following on the insight they have provided on this critical issue? a freedom of information request—that it had not I need not remind hon. Members that the United previously commissioned any legal advice on an Kingdom’s membership of the European Union touches independent Scotland’s place in the EU. Yet, the SNP the lives of all our citizens. Much of our trade is with has been making assertions that it had for several years the EU: our total exports to the EU in 2011 were worth while in government. Many will find it absolutely £234 billion. The single market underpins a large portion astonishing that while seeking to make its case for of our economy, allowing our businesses to trade freely splitting Scotland from the UK, the SNP has been across a market of half a billion people. The EU basing its case on unfounded assertions, rather than facilitates collective action on issues that are too big for cold facts. any one nation to tackle on its own. It magnifies our The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire voice in the world on pressing international questions, (Pete Wishart), whom I like very much indeed, referred such as the current situation in the middle east and our to his earlier musical career in Runrig. He will remember concerns over Iran’s nuclear ambitions. a song, which he may have written, called “The Message”. It is the United Kingdom, of course, that is the It says: member state: it is named in the European Union’s “You take your message to the waters fundamental treaties as such. It is the Government of the United Kingdom that must therefore negotiate in And you watch the ripples flow”. the EU’s various formations in the best interests of all Perhaps it is time he and his colleagues made sure that its citizens. That means that we take into account the that message was backed up by substance and fact. 165WH UK Constituent Parts (EU)21 NOVEMBER 2012 UK Constituent Parts (EU) 166WH

I do not need to remind hon. Members that the UK state, involving negotiation with the rest of the UK and has, over the years, managed to negotiate exemptions other member states, the outcome of which cannot be from membership of the euro and the Schengen common predicted. visa area, ensuring that the UK can maintain control Scotland would no longer be represented through a over its monetary and border policies. permanent seat on the UN Security Council. Nor would a separate Scotland qualify for the G8 or the G20. In Mr Bain: Will the Minister give way? answer to the question from the hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds) about Mr Swire: I am afraid I have no time. I will at the end the WTO, there have been no discussions with the if I have time. Scottish Government on the issue. We are not in the business of pre-negotiating, as we do not believe the people of In addition, hon. Members will be only too aware of Scotland will vote for independence. the importance of the UK’s rebate, negotiated with great skill and determination more than 25 years ago. The UK Government are not alone in taking a factual The rebate continues to ensure that the UK taxpayer is and legally based approach to the issue. José Manuel relieved of some of the burden of supporting some of Barroso, the President of the European Commission, the most imbalanced parts of the EU budget, which is made clear: of great concern to us all at the moment. “A new state, if it wants to join the European Union, has to The UK therefore has a permanent opt-out from the apply to become a member like any state.” euro and from the Schengen border-free zone; a permanent Recent correspondence between the Spanish Government rebate on our net contributions to the EU budget; a and Commissioner Reding on the issue also supported choice whether to join new EU laws in justice and home that interpretation. affairs; and a protocol on how the charter of fundamental In simple terms, an independent Scotland could not rights applies to the UK. However, if Scotland left the just assert that it would be a member of the club; the UK and applied to join the EU, all those issues would other members would need to agree as well. The comments be subject to negotiation, and there is no guarantee of the Spanish Foreign Minister, José Manuel Garcia- whatever that it would obtain any of the special rights Margallo, to the Spanish Parliament on the 23 October the UK currently enjoys. must be noted: It is precisely the UK’s weight and influence as one of “in the hypothetical case of independence, Scotland would have the largest member states that has helped us to succeed to join the queue and ask to be admitted, needing the unanimous in negotiating such arrangements. Scotland, like England, approval of all Member States to obtain the status of a candidate Northern Ireland and Wales, derives enormous advantage country.” from them. I can see why the SNP is so keen to suggest The Spanish Foreign Minister was referring to the list to those voting in the referendum before the end of of candidate countries wanting to join the EU, which 2014 that those arrangements would simply continue in include Iceland, Serbia, Montenegro and Turkey. Those the event of independence, as if nothing had changed. are the remarks of a Foreign Minister of a major EU However, the fact is that if Scotland became independent, member state with an obvious interest in this issue. The everything would change. Independence is not simply Scottish Government must be prepared to respond and an extension of the devolution arrangements that have to be up front about the uncertainties surrounding their worked so well; it is not merely a further point on the position. constitutional continuum; it is a fundamental change—a definitive split from the rest of the UK, and an irreversible An independent Scotland would not, therefore, simply step. Independence would bring devolution to an end. continue automatically in membership of the EU. The EU treaties would have to be amended to allow it to As set out in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office join, and that would involve a negotiation. What terms memorandum to the Foreign Affairs Committee inquiry would Scotland secure? Would it be able to avoid the into a separate Scotland, independence would create a commitment to join the euro or the Schengen area, new state, one that would have to take its place on an which every new member state since 1992 has taken on? already crowded international stage. England, Northern The simple answer is that we do not know—none of Ireland and Wales would continue the international this is clear. legal personality of the UK; Scotland, having decided to leave the UK, would start afresh. The overwhelming In contrast to the SNP, the UK Government are weight of international legal precedent underscores that taking a transparent approach to analysing the legal point. There are many examples. One is India and issues, including by engaging with eminent legal experts. Pakistan: following independence, India continued the On 2 October this year, the Advocate-General for UN membership, and Pakistan joined the UN as a new Scotland—one of the UK Government’s three Law state. Another, as we have heard, is the USSR: Russia Officers—delivered a speech at the Edinburgh Centre continued the legal personality of the USSR, and the for Constitutional Law, setting out the Government’s other former Soviet Union states were treated as new initial view on the legal questions. The Government states. There are also Ethiopia and Eritrea, and Sudan have also made it clear that we will provide detailed and South Sudan. evidence and analysis so that people in Scotland can The new state would need to decide which international make an informed decision about whether to stay in the organisations it wanted to belong to, in the context of UK and about the implications of leaving it. We will its overall foreign policy. Obviously, it could not simply publish that analysis over the course of 2013. assert its membership of any of those organisations. It is the clear position of the UK Government that The most likely scenario by far is that an independent Scotland is better off in the UK, and the UK is better Scotland would have to apply to join the EU as a new off with Scotland in it. We are backing up that position 167WH UK Constituent Parts (EU) 21 NOVEMBER 2012 168WH

[Mr Swire] Housing Benefit (Under-25s) with a robust programme of analysis and evidence. 11 am Those advocating independence for Scotland are making assertions and pursue their argument with no solid Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): I am foundation in fact. grateful to have been chosen to lead this important debate under your chairmanship, Mr Crausby. I want to say first that although I understand that the Government have not yet adopted the policy in question, the mere suggestion that the Prime Minister proposes to cut housing benefit to those aged under 25 has raised great concern nationally. I have received—for which I am grateful—briefings from several relevant organisations, including the Prince’s Trust, Places for People, Crisis, Shelter and the National Housing Federation, organisations that help and support the most vulnerable young people aged under 25. I intend to draw heavily on their evidence in the debate. We all know that cuts are necessary to balance the country’s books, but the burden of paying for them must, as we all know and believe, fall on the shoulders of those most able to pay. That does not include those who are just starting out in life, or young people who, through no fault of their own, have no family support to help them into adulthood and towards independence. Nationally, the policy would affect more than 380,000 households. The cuts would save £1.8 billion, but cutting housing benefit to under-25s is a false economy, as I shall demonstrate.

Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ Co-op): I represent one of the youngest constituencies in the country. About a third of my constituents are under the age of 24, and there is an explosion in the number of 20-year-olds moving into the constituency. Nationally, last year, a third of those accepted by their council as homeless were aged 16—that is very young— to 24. Of those, 10,000 said that the reason they lost their previous home was that their parents would not or could not house them. Does my hon. Friend agree that the Government’s approach seems to ignore the reality of family breakdown? It is a reality for many young people in my constituency.

Mrs Glindon: Yes, I agree with my hon. Friend, and I will refer to those statistics. Unless we have been through the same situation as those young people, none of us can imagine it, and I wonder how it will affect their future. Of those aged under 25 who claim housing benefit, 17% are in work, but, as the Prince’s Trust has pointed out, they need that benefit to close the gap between their earnings and accommodation costs. Many young people earn only low rates of pay, and the national minimum wage for 16 to 17-year-olds is only £3.68 an hour; it is £4.98 an hour for those aged 18 to 20. Young people on apprenticeships earn only £2.60 an hour. The Low Pay Commission has found that young people are disproportionately likely to be paid the minimum wage for their age: 13% of young people aged between 18 and 20 are on the minimum wage of £4.98 an hour. Most young people who claim housing benefit are not in work, but young people all want to work. In a recent survey by the Prince’s Trust, young people who had previously been unemployed were asked how many jobs they had applied for, and the most common response was that they had made more than 100 applications. 169WH Housing Benefit (Under-25s)21 NOVEMBER 2012 Housing Benefit (Under-25s) 170WH

The Government say that they want young people to Minister expect those people to cope without any housing take up their apprentice schemes, but apprenticeship benefit at all? While places such as St Mungo’s provide wages are low, at £2.60 an hour. If the Government take accommodation to more than 17,000 people every night housing benefit from those young people—particularly and help thousands more who are sleeping rough or are the most vulnerable, whom we want to get into at risk of homelessness, we can only wonder what it apprenticeships—it will be yet another barrier to their would be like if those who rely on housing benefit were future in work. The Prince’s Trust has also pointed out to lose it and no longer have that safety net. How would that young people who want to strike out on their own those figures be magnified? in business, and take up the trust’s enterprise programme, I am pleased to say that in my constituency, there is a are often lone parents who claim housing benefit. They scheme called Maritime Court, which is run by Places need housing benefit to supplement their incomes until for People as an individual support project. It is a their business is profitable enough to allow them enough customer-led service that offers support and guidance. salary to cover accommodation costs. Why should those Everyone using the scheme is encouraged to discuss young people be denied opportunity because they cannot their needs, and appropriate information is provided to afford a roof over their head, while the very rich get assist them to make informed decisions. They get advice huge tax breaks from the Government? and support on issues such as life skills, benefits, budgeting, The Government have said that some young people employment and education, with the ultimate aim of will be exempted from the cuts, but how will those developing life skills to enable independent living within exemptions be worked out, and who will be eligible? I the community. The service offers a low to medium level hope that the Minister will tell us. of housing-related support. It has 24-hour staffing all year round. Young people get support for up to two Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The issue will be years, living in accommodation there until such time one of the biggest in my constituency, and I perceive that they are able to move into accommodation in the great difficulties, come next year. Is the hon. Lady aware community. As has been mentioned, such projects are that there have been discussions with the Government concerned about proposals for the future. and the Northern Ireland Assembly about changes that may help the system to work? Perhaps the changes Jim Shannon: The issue of affordable housing is one proposed for Northern Ireland could be brought across that Barnardo’s, Save the Children and many other to the rest of the United Kingdom. We are not getting organisations are raising. Does the hon. Lady feel that everything we want for Northern Ireland, but I understand the Government need to address the issues of affordable that we are getting some helpful concessions. Would the housing and of housing that is suitable within the hon. Lady want to suggest that the Government might housing benefit range? discuss that with her, and that they might enable the changes to be made UK-wide? Mrs Glindon: The hon. Gentleman has raised a particularly important point—one that we come back Mrs Glindon: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that to time and again. When we see the low wages for intervention, and hope that the Minister will have listened apprentices and many young people, how else can they to what he said. afford a home, with or without housing benefit? Many young people live with their parents, because I want to give a couple of examples to show how that is the only way they can manage work; they simply young people’s lives need to and can be turned around, cannot live in a home of their own. The consequences and why housing benefit is crucial; obviously, I will use for young people who cannot live with their parents are supplemented names. The following case study is from serious. Crisis has found that, as my hon. Friend the Maritime Court. A young woman, Sue, went into the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) project when she was 17, with a number of support said, one third of those accepted as homeless by their needs. She had been re-homed and resided in one of councils were under 25, and 10,000 had lost their home Depaul UK’s lodgings within a family home environment, because their parents could not or would not house because she had been asked to leave her parents’ house. them. What will happen to those young people if housing She had some skills but no experience of living on her benefit is cut? own or managing a tenancy. She had led a chaotic lifestyle, as a lot of young people do, which was Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): I congratulate the compounded because her mother had moved around, hon. Lady on securing the debate. I have a concern having had a lot of debt and rent arrears. Her parents about the night shelter in my constituency, which receives had separated, and she had an awkward relationship a third of its funding directly through housing benefit. with her mother. She was often left to fend for herself The hon. Lady mentioned exemptions, and representatives and her young sister from an early age. She received no have raised with me the question whether the shelter family support when she was at home with her mother, would be supported exempt accommodation under the so she was a young person on her own. She had also new rules. Has the hon. Lady considered that point? suffered domestic abuse from family members and friends, Perhaps the Minister would respond to it. so she was a vulnerable young person. The support that she needed was with money management, how to develop Mrs Glindon: That is a concern of several agencies relationships and tackling offending behaviour. She also and organisations that are in the same boat. I hope that had mental health and communication problems, to say the Minister will say something about it. butafew. Half the young people who receive housing benefit During Sue’s time with the scheme, the massive support have children. Moreover, 28,000 young people receiving she received enabled her to overcome many of her housing benefit are sick or disabled. How would the problems, and she became a mature person, who was 171WH Housing Benefit (Under-25s)21 NOVEMBER 2012 Housing Benefit (Under-25s) 172WH

[Mrs Glindon] but onpresenting her case so passionately. May I also say how pleased I am to see the hon. Member for able to deal with difficult situations. She has moved on Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) in his place? He through Maritime Court and has been able to work has taken a keen interest in the issue, and I will refer to with North Tyneside council and get into independent him again towards the end of my remarks. living. The case study explains how the staff worked The hon. Member for North Tyneside said that the through issues with her and provided support. She has idea is something that the Government might effect, but now moved on—she is starting a placement and is the fact that something was said at a Conservative party looking forward to training for a new career. That conference does not mean that it becomes coalition would not have happened had it not been for Maritime policy. At the moment, it certainly is not. The hon. Court and for housing benefit. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) Another referral that was made to Maritime Court will know that both the Prime Minister and the Deputy was from North Tyneside council’s men’s direct access Prime Minister have said that, were such a move to unit. Lee, as I will call him, had mild learning difficulties become reality, vulnerable groups, particularly those in and cerebral palsy. He engaged well with staff from day care, will be protected. one, but he seemed to rely on staff for company. He I say to the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) would often go out and have a good drink, but he was that the Government are willing to seek what advice never aggressive. Staff realised that he was a very vulnerable they can from Northern Ireland. We will certainly look person because the only way he could have friends was forward to any comments that he can forward to us. On by allowing people into his flat in Maritime Court. He the important issue of affordable housing, he is absolutely lived on the ground floor, so the staff moved him right that one of the key things we have to do is increase upstairs, which helped to solve some of his problems. its availability. As the hon. Member for Birmingham, Lee was on a lot of benefit because of his disabilities, Erdington knows only too well, when the Labour but he would often come back with no money once he Government were in office, we saw a reduction of some had got paid, because people were taking advantage of 421,000 social homes. him. The people at Maritime Court took over the management of his money and helped him with his The Government intend to ensure that we move benefit. He started to turn his life around. Eventually, forward with the provision of affordable housing by staff found him a place in South Shields, which is across committing to provide 170,000 affordable houses by 2015. the river, in an area near where his girlfriend lives. With My hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Steve all the support he had, he was able to set up in Dock Brine) mentioned night shelters. Clearly, as that is not a street in South Shields, and he is still doing extremely Government policy, I cannot comment on who would well there. or would not be affected by that, because I currently I could go on, but I cannot give more examples in the have no details and such details may not be forthcoming. time allotted. What I want to put to the Minister is that, The hon. Member for North Tyneside raises an important should the proposals go ahead, as I and others have issue, and I recognise that young people face difficult said, thousands of young people who are now able to circumstances. The effects of what is, after all, the worst enjoy a roof over their head will be made homeless. recession in a generation continue to cause hardship for households across the country. That is why homelessness Meg Hillier: One concern in my constituency and and housing support remain a key priority for me, my nationally is the number of under-25s who themselves Department and the Government as a whole, but we are parents. I am sure that my hon. Friend would agree need to keep the issue in perspective. As a result of the that it would be helpful if the Minister clarified the work of local authorities, their partners and the Government’s current thinking on those young people. Government, and of the investment we are making, homelessness is half the average rate that it reached Mrs Glindon: As I have asked, and as my hon. Friend under the previous Administration. The homelessness has pointed out, what will become of those young rate remains lower today than in 28 of the past 30 years. parents and their children? What will become of the Of course, I recognise that that is no comfort to those organisations that enable young people, such as the currently dealing with the trauma of homelessness, and ones I have talked about in Maritime Court, to have an we are determined to take every opportunity to move independent life, with housing benefit as a crutch until forward. That is why the Government are providing they are able to stand on their own two feet? The system support through investment, reform and leadership. will be complicated. How will exemptions be worked The homelessness prevention grant was protected in through? I hope that the proposal never becomes policy, the spending review, and we are investing £400 million and I hope that the Minister will be able to reassure all in homelessness prevention over the four-year period. of us present who, on behalf of probably many other We recognise that continuing financial pressures have people and many of our colleagues, feel that such a made it hard for many people, which is why we provided move would be wrong and would simply condemn an additional £70 million last year to address homelessness. many young people to a life of misery. That included a £20 million homelessness transition fund and a further £18.5 million for the first ever single 11.17 am homelessness prevention fund. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Additionally, the Government are providing £390 million Communities and Local Government (Mr Don Foster): It to help families in difficult situations adjust to changes is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, in the welfare system. I recognise what the hon. Lady Mr Crausby. I congratulate the hon. Member for North said about troubled families, and she will be aware of Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) not only on securing the debate, the Government’s successful work to address that issue. 173WH Housing Benefit (Under-25s)21 NOVEMBER 2012 Housing Benefit (Under-25s) 174WH

In addition to the funding, we are reforming the as St Basils, Centrepoint and Depaul—and others system. The Localism Act 2011 gives local authorities mentioned by the hon. Lady—and to the work of local more freedom to move people quickly out of expensive authorities, it is now very rare for young people under temporary accommodation and into suitable settled 18 to end up on our streets. homes, thereby reducing costs on councils and housing Many people experiencing homelessness have had a waiting lists. That power allows local authorities to use range of negative experiences in their childhood or good quality accommodation in the private rented sector youth. We accept that young people are a key risk so that households are not left sitting in expensive and group—35% of those accepted by local authorities as inappropriate temporary accommodation while they homeless in 2011-12 were under 25. As the hon. Lady wait for social housing. rightly said, family breakdown is a prime cause of The Government take homelessness seriously, and we youth homelessness. Young people with experience of have established a ministerial working group on care are particularly vulnerable, with 16% of rough homelessness that brings together eight Departments to sleepers surveyed by a recent study having experienced address the complex causes, which include not only care at some point during their childhood. housing, but, just as importantly, health, work and Supporting vulnerable young people to make a successful training. The group provides the leadership we need to transition to adulthood helps them avoid long-term address homelessness. benefit dependency and expensive interventions by specialist The group produced its first report, “Vision to end health services, social care, the criminal justice system rough sleeping”, in July 2010. Since then, we have made and, of course, homelessness services. Homelessness is significant progress and provided £20 million through a stigmatising experience for a young person, and an the homelessness transition fund to help roll out, for integrated approach to preventing that is needed. example, the Mayor of London’s “no second night out” approach. We announced the most recent tranche of Mrs Glindon: I am pleased to hear about all those grants for the fund in August 2012 with a further programmes and about the investment the Government £3.6 million to 21 homelessness charities. Five areas, are making. What commitment is there to keeping including 51 local authorities, have now introduced “no housing benefit for those young people under 25? Once second night out”: Merseyside, Greater Manchester, they have benefited from all the support, not being able Cheshire, Kent and Northamptonshire. to work may stop those in rented accommodation being We have committed to a new rough sleeping helpline able to pay the full rent. What assurance is there that that will ensure that anyone who is concerned for someone that cushion will remain for as long as people need it so sleeping rough can contact the right service to get them they can live in a home of their own? help. StreetLink, as it is to be called, will be in place by Christmas 2012, and the website is already live. Mr Foster: The hon. Lady tempts me to predict what announcements will be made in due course, which I Preventing youth homelessness was a key part of the cannot possibly do. I cannot give her an assurance one ministerial working group on homelessness’s second way or the other. All I can do is tell her that that is not report, “Making every contact count”, which we published currently the Government’s policy. We will both have to in August. The report considered how to address the wait to see what emerges. complex underlying causes of homelessness, how to The hon. Lady will be aware that, as a country, we are prevent homelessness at an earlier stage and how to facing a very difficult financial crisis, and we have to deliver integrated services. It focused on youth homelessness address that. Unless we get the economy straight and and set out an innovative approach to addressing that create the growth that we desperately need to get people important issue. back into work, problems will continue to multiply. The Government are providing investment, reform That will continue to be our first priority. and leadership, but we are also calling on local agencies across the country to respond with innovation and Mrs Glindon: Will the Minister give way? passion. England has one of the strongest safety nets in the world for families with children and for vulnerable Mr Foster: We have about two seconds remaining, people who become homeless through no fault of their but I will give way if the hon. Lady wants the last word. own. Sixteen and 17-year-olds, care leavers under the age of 21 and people over 21 who are vulnerable as a Mrs Glindon: As I said at the beginning, cannot that result of being in care are priority groups and, as such, burden be put on the very rich, rather than on these should they find themselves without a roof over their areas? head, they will be housed by local authorities. Local authorities already know that it is in nobody’s Mr Foster: The hon. Lady is well aware of the Deputy interest for things to get that far. Preventing homelessness, Prime Minister’s statements on the importance of ensuring through supporting young people to resolve issues at that those with the broadest shoulders make the greatest home—the hon. Lady raised that point—and stay with contribution. their families, must remain a priority. I end by saying to the hon. Lady that we have worked My Department continues to work with the Department with charities to develop a pathway to try to ensure that for Education to support local authority homelessness we provide the necessary support. I hope that she will and children’s services to prevent homelessness and to listen to her colleague, the hon. Member for Birmingham, address its effects on young people. We have funded Erdington, who on 13 December is organising a huge youth homelessness charity St Basils to support local event in Parliament on youth homelessness. He is to be authorities and their partners in that work. Thanks to congratulated on organising that event, and I hope we the work of young people’s homelessness charities such will be able to continue the debate on that occasion. 175WH Housing Benefit (Under-25s) 21 NOVEMBER 2012 176WH

[Mr Foster] Cycling Safety I congratulate the hon. Member for North Tyneside on raising this important issue, which the Government [MR DAI HAVARD in the Chair] take seriously and are doing an enormous amount of work to address. 2.30 pm 11.30 am Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con): I am pleased to Sitting suspended. open this debate on cycling safety and the wearing of cycle helmets. I know that the topic is incredibly important to many Members and many of our constituents. Rather appropriately, we are in the middle of road safety week, organised by the charity Brake, which is held every November to raise awareness of death and injury on our roads and the steps that can be taken to improve road safety, including for cyclists. Since the last debate here in February, we have had the Olympics. I want to take a moment to put on record the enormous contributions of our cycling sportsmen and women to cycling and to raising its profile internationally. The Olympics showcased the best of British. Some of our cycling Olympians, such as Sir Chris Hoy, were already household names, but others have joined the sporting pantheon. In addition, individual gold medals were won by Jason Kenny, Laura Trott, Victoria Pendleton and Bradley Wiggins. In the Paralympics, Sarah Storey won a sensational four individual gold medals, and David Stone, Anthony Kappes, Mark Colbourne and Neil Fachie also won individual Paralympic golds. Team gold and silver medals and individual silver and bronze medals were won as well, adding up to a record medal haul. Also, the incomparable Bradley Wiggins kicked off our summer sporting celebrations by winning the Tour de France, a truly magnificent achievement. For those of us glued to the television or lucky enough to be in the velodrome, each British win was a memorable moment. It was a golden summer for British cycling. Undoubtedly, when a country does well in a particular sport, as we did in cycling, and produces new sporting heroes, it inspires a new generation to take up that sporting discipline, or at least think seriously about taking it up. Sometimes, it even inspires those of us who are a bit longer in the tooth to take up an activity once again. I am sure that all Members will agree that that is a thoroughly good thing. Cycling obviously has positive benefits for individual health and the environment. The organisation CTC has cited studies showing that the health benefits of cycling outweigh the risks by a factor of 20 to 1. Estimates from the Department for Transport—perhaps the Minister will give us more detailed figures if he has them—suggest that 11% of adults in England now cycle for at least 30 minutes once a month. However, that is still some way behind numerous other European nations. One key thing that holds people back from cycling is concerns about road safety. In the past few weeks, there have been a number of road accidents involving high-profile individuals, which has brought the issue of road safety for cyclists to the top of the national agenda once again. Early this month, Bradley Wiggins was knocked off his mountain bike by a van coming out of a petrol station near his home in Lancashire. He was taken to hospital with bruises to his right hand and ribs. The next day, Shane Sutton, head coach for the GB cycling team, was knocked off his bike by a car while cycling along the 177WH Cycling Safety21 NOVEMBER 2012 Cycling Safety 178WH

Stockport road near a junction. He suffered a concussion safety bars; identification of the 500 most dangerous and small bleeding on the brain, but thankfully, his road junctions, and their redesign or fitting with priority condition soon stabilised. traffic lights and Trixi mirrors; a national audit of As we all know, those accidents made the national cycling; the earmarking of 2% of the Highways Agency’s news. They even took the US presidential election out annual budget for next-generation cycle routes; improved of the top news spot for a while. “Newsround”, the training of cyclists and drivers, including making cycle BBC children’s news programme, asked its viewers whether safety a core part of the driving test; a mandatory they felt safe on their bikes. Many did not. One caller default speed limit of 20 mph in residential areas where said: there are no cycle lanes; invitations to businesses to “Although it helps you to keep fit, I think riding a bike on sponsor cycle schemes, as has happened in London; and roads is dangerous and unsafe because vehicles may not be able to the appointment of a cycling commissioner in every see you.” city. My hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I (Dr Huppert), co-chairman of the all-party parliamentary congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important group on cycling, who unfortunately could not be here, debate. On the point about road safety, does he also secured a debate in February relating to the campaign. accept that the Government recently made available an It was incredibly well attended, and I know that some additional £30 million to tackle dangerous junctions Members present today also contributed to that debate. and £15 million for infrastructure, including cycle routes In his response to that debate, the Under-Secretary of and facilities at stations and across the country? State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Norman Baker) set out the Government’s thoughts Alok Sharma: Of course. I agree with my hon. Friend. at the time on the campaign’s manifesto points. On the The Government have made additional moneys available first point, my hon. Friend responded that his Department to the £600 million sustainability fund, to which I will was involved in discussions at European level about return. Funding is right, and it is one aspect of ensuring improving standards for heavy goods vehicles to help that we have a road infrastructure that works for everyone. reduce accidents. I would be grateful if the Minister To return to the issue of children and cycling safety, if responding to this debate, my hon. Friend the Member there is a perception among the young as well as adults for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond), updated us on that being on a road is dangerous, it is a serious deterrent any progress in those European discussions. to cycling, which is particularly bad news. The latest On the second manifesto point, my hon. Friend the statistics from the Department for Transport are concerning. Member for Lewes noted that he had already given all In the year ending June 2012, the number of pedal local authorities in England the authority to install cyclists killed or seriously injured on our roads increased Trixi mirrors as and where they deem it appropriate. by 9% compared with the previous year, and so far this Again, it would be useful if the Minister provided us calendar year, 108 cyclists have been tragically killed in with any statistics his Department may have on the the UK. The total for 2011 was 107. More than 3,000 people number of Trixi mirrors installed by local authorities were seriously injured on UK roads while riding a bike over the past six months. last year, a 16% increase in the number of reported On the third point, relating to a national audit of serious injuries to cyclists. cycling, my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes explained It is absolutely clear that more must be done to that his Department had commissioned a new question improve conditions for cyclists on our roads. Cycling in the Sport England active people survey, to provide organisations such as British Cycling have been calling more detailed information on cycling at local level. I on the Government to put cycling at the heart of was pleased that in August the Department published transport policy to ensure that cycle safety is built into for the first time ever local authority data on cycling, the design of all new roads, junctions and transport based on responses to the active people survey. I hope projects. I absolutely endorse that view. In the 21st century, that the Minister will tell us how often he expects these we must plan for and ultimately have a transport data to be published, so that we can start to gauge the infrastructure that is safe and fit for purpose for all trend in cycling across individual local authorities. This users: drivers, pedestrians, commuters and cyclists. should, over time, prove to be a powerful tool in helping In recent years, there have been a number of campaigns to focus on which authorities are good at encouraging to improve safety for cyclists. One of the latest, launched cycling and which need to try harder. in February this year, is The Times newspaper’s Cities Regarding the earmarking of 2% of the Highway Fit for Cycling campaign, which involved the publication Agency’s annual budget for next generation cycle routes, of an eight-point manifesto. The campaign, which has my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes was understandably attracted cross-party support, was launched by The hesitant about adopting a specific figure, but mentioned Times after one of its reporters, Mary Bowers, sustained that the Department was undertaking a stocktake of serious injuries in a collision with a lorry while cycling Highway Agency routes to consider what might be to work. It is an excellent campaign that has provided possible in future. Perhaps my hon. Friend the Minister an impetus for a continued focus on road safety for has an update on that stocktake and what this may cyclists. It is also helping provide funding for the all-party mean for improved cycle routes. group’s report, which will be published next year. I know that Members present will be familiar with Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): The the eight-point manifesto, but I will set it out again for hon. Gentleman might know that I am chairman of the the record. The Cities Fit for Cycling campaign calls for Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety. heavy goods vehicles entering city centres to be fitted Will he include in that stocktake the fact that we must with sensors, audible turning alarms, extra mirrors and go back to having targets for accident reduction, whether 179WH Cycling Safety21 NOVEMBER 2012 Cycling Safety 180WH

[Mr Barry Sheerman] the Minister will give us a full view on everything that his Department is doing to provide further funding to in respect of cyclists or other category of road user, help cycling and cyclists. including pedestrians? We have in the past two years renounced targets, but we know that if there are no Rehman Chishti: On road safety and cycling safety, targets across Europe casualties start to increase. Will the figures that I have from the DFT say that in 2011, he make a plea in his speech for getting back to targets, 111 people were killed in cycling incidents and 3,085 so that we can get accident reduction for cyclists and were seriously injured. Does my hon. Friend have any other road users? evidence showing how many of those incidents, whether fatality or serious injury, could have been avoided if Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con): The hon. Gentleman those persons were wearing a cycling helmet? has eloquently put on the record his views on targets. I am sure that the Minister will give us his thoughts, and Alok Sharma: I will talk about an independent report those of his Department, on that point. produced for the Department for Transport in 2009, which demonstrated that the use of cycling helmets On improving training for cyclists and motorists, my absolutely makes a difference in reducing fatalities and hon. Friend the Member for Lewes also talked about injuries. Let me come on to that later. the work of the Department’s Bikeability initiative, among other matters, as well as noting that he had established a cycle safety sub-committee of the stakeholder Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Is not it forum. I understand that my hon. Friend the Minister absurd that Members of Parliament still pretend that has in recent weeks led his Department’s THINK! wearing a cycle helmet increases the risk? Cyclist campaign. I am grateful for the work that he is doing to improve road safety, but it would be useful to Alok Sharma: My hon. Friend, as ever, makes a good have some feedback on, and his view of, the work of the point. There is clear evidence that using a cycling helmet, new safety sub-committee. whether as an adult or a child, reduces the risk of injury. I will talk about cycle helmets, but in this debate there is With regard to sixth issue in The Times’ campaign—the almost a gulf between those hon. Members who believe 20 mph speed limit— my hon. Friend the Member for that cycle helmets should be made compulsory and Lewes noted in February that he had already taken others who do not. Organisations out there have similar action to make it easier for local authorities to introduce or differing views, as well. My hon. Friend is right—it 20 mph zones and a 20 mph limit. Does my hon. Friend has been concluded in independent reports and reports the Minister have any update on the number of new produced by the Department—that wearing a cycle 20 mph zones introduced in the past 12 months by local helmet makes a difference in terms of improving safety. authorities? If he has, I hope that he will provide that in his response. I was talking about the contribution that the Minister and the Department have made. He is also committed The Times’ campaign’s seventh manifesto point relates to supporting Bikeability cycle training for the remainder to encouraging businesses to follow the lead of Barclays of this Parliament, which is welcome. I am pleased in London and back cycling schemes and initiatives. about that good news. However, I shall return to my There is universal support in the House for this idea. central theme. All hon. Members who are supporters of My hon. Friend the Member for Lewes said that his cycling want cycling to be put at the very heart of Department would send out the message to encourage transport policy.I hope that the Minister will tell us—apart this. Will the Minister update us on whether the Department from all the funding streams and all the work that is has had any traction in this respect with other potential going on—how cycling will be, or is already, a central business sponsors? part of his Department’s policy. The manifesto’s final point calls on every city to Proper provision for cyclists on the road is not just appoint a cycling commissioner to champion cycling- something that cyclists want. Hon. Members will know friendly reforms. Clearly, this is a matter for local authorities, that the AA recently undertook a survey of its members, but I understand that my hon. Friend the Member for and 62% of the 20,261 AA members who responded to Lewes wrote earlier in the year to the leaders and chief it said that there are not enough cycle lanes. An increased executives of each council across England, encouraging number of cyclists on busy roads is leaving many motorists them to consider whether someone in their organisation feeling insecure about how to interact with cyclists. The should take a lead role on cycling. I hope that my hon. majority view is that clearly defined cycle lanes would Friend the Minister provides some feedback on the be good news for both motorists and cyclists. That responses that he has received and on the number of means a lot more than slapping down a few white lines local authorities that have appointed a cycling champion. intermittently along the pavement, as happens, I have asked my hon. Friend to respond to a range of unfortunately, in my home town of Reading. issues, but I also want to put on the record that I know, Ahead of this debate the Mayor of London’s office having talked to him, that he is committed to improving was in touch with me—I am sure that it was in touch road safety for cyclists. His Department has provided with other colleagues as well—setting out the Mayor’s £600 million through the local sustainable transport commitment to making London even more of a cycling fund to support local authorities in their use of transport city. The aim of the Mayor’s cycling strategy is to to lever growth and cut carbon locally. Many of the increase cycling by 400% by 2026, from 2001 1evels. I 96 projects have a cycling element. My hon. Friend the understand that record levels of investment in cycling Member for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti) over the past four years have supported the cycling mentioned a number of other funding streams that have strategy, with investment levels now approaching those come on line from the Department and I am sure that of other leading European cycling cities. A number of 181WH Cycling Safety21 NOVEMBER 2012 Cycling Safety 182WH

European cities have significantly higher per capita cyclists, so there is a threefold understatement in police- spending on cycling than we do in many of our cities. It recorded injuries compared with NHS admissions. One will be interesting to hear the Department’s view on reason for that is that not every injury or incident takes that, and on how the situation can be rectified. Alongside place on a road—it can be off road, in particular for the Mayor’s flagship schemes of Barclays cycle hire, children, and I will focus on that as I progress. Furthermore, cycle superhighways and biking boroughs, a range of of the 9,000 emergency road traffic hospital admissions, complementary activities has led to a 70% increase in more than 3,000 were of children aged nought to 15—35% cycling in the capital over the past four years. Many of of the total. The understatement in police-recorded our cities, towns and local authorities can learn injuries compared with NHS admissions for children in from the example of London and, no doubt, Members connection with cycling injuries was therefore tenfold. will have other best practice from their own areas to That demonstrates that, when children are involved in share. accidents, a lot of the time, they do not happen on the road or the highway, but off road. Children may be The second part of the debate relates to the wearing cycling with friends in the playground or in woods, and of cycle helmets, which can be a controversial subject, we must bear that clear distinction in mind when we but I have no wish for a particularly emotional debate. discuss cycle helmet usage as potentially compulsory We need to be dispassionate in discussion, and to debate for children as opposed to adults. on the basis of evidence rather than emotion. I asked for the debate today because I was prompted by a recent meeting with the Bicycle Helmet Initiative Trust, a Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): I national, award-winning charity based in Reading. The thank the hon. Gentleman for securing the debate. I am trust is committed to saving young people’s lives by sure that anything we can do to make cycling safer promoting safer cycling and, in particular, the use of would receive broad support, although I draw to his cycle helmets. The organisation was founded in 1988 by attention the attempt by the former Member for Carlisle, a paediatric nurse who, through her work, saw the Eric Martlew, to introduce a private Member’s Bill. The devastation that head injury can cause, not only to the manner in which he and the Bill’s supporters were child but to the whole family.Since the charity’s conception, attacked was absolutely unbelievable, yet beneath it all it has grown in drive and commitment to be an advocate were people with a genuine desire to see children cycling for the child and young person. It also provides a safely, whether on roads, on footways as toddlers, in community service by highlighting the need for safer playgrounds or elsewhere. We need to do something to cycling practices that incorporate the distinctive needs tackle that, to see a definitive decrease in the number of of children and young people. The charity is a national injuries. resource working with parents, teachers, police, road safety officers, Departments and health care professionals Alok Sharma: The hon. Gentleman makes a good by promoting and providing educational programmes point and he makes it passionately. It is vital that we see in schools on the need for helmet use and safer cycling a reduction in injuries and fatalities not only for children practice throughout the United Kingdom. but for adults. I will come to the 2004 private Member’s The trust has worked successfully with the Department Bill, but we have moved on since then, because there is for Transport in the past and it recently submitted more evidence. As I said at the start of the debate, another proposal, for a project that aims to complement however, there is clearly a chasm between those who the Bikeability programme. It would engage with areas believe that wearing helmets should be mandatory and in need, which may not be part of training programmes those who do not. due to social challenges, and work with young people to Members might remember a few weeks ago when develop their understanding of road safety and self-safety. Bradley Wiggins tweeted on the subject. In my view, he As part of its proposal, the trust wants to work in local is an absolute god, but even Bradley Wiggins came in communities to develop partnerships and to draw on for quite a lot of stick, and he of course then made local private sector organisations to provide safety packs further statements about his views on the compulsory to children who, because of the cost, might be without wearing of helmets. Yet we cannot get away from the helmets, lights and reflector bands, or without access to fact that wearing helmets saves lives and cuts down on training. I hope that the Minister will agree to meet injuries. representatives of the trust and me, so that we can explain to him in detail the objectives of the latest proposal, and that we will secure his personal support Mr Sheerman: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that for the project. when we organised the seat belt legislation some 28 years ago, a passionate group attacked us for undermining The Bicycle Helmet Initiative Trust is absolutely individual liberty? Many made the argument that wearing committed in its advocacy for children and young people seat belts would make people drive faster and therefore to wear cycle helmets. I very much share that view, and kill more people. The proud record is that we have saved the statistics on serious injuries to cyclists bear out why many lives over that 25 years. wearing a cycle helmet is so important, especially for children. In 2011, just over 3,000 seriously injured road casualties involving pedal cyclists were recorded by Alok Sharma: The hon. Gentleman makes a very police. In addition, almost 16,000 incidents of pedal good point, and I will come on to that. That Bill cyclists being casualties in slight accidents were recorded. eventually became law because of the courage of Members Of the 3,000 serious injuries, 349 casualties—or 12% of in the House at the time, and it is now second nature for the total—were children aged nought to 15. However, us to wear seat belts. There is no question but that according to NHS statistics, almost 9,000 emergency wearing seat belts saves lives, and there is no kind of road traffic hospital admissions last year involved pedal negative impact. 183WH Cycling Safety21 NOVEMBER 2012 Cycling Safety 184WH

Mr Bone: My hon. Friend is generous in giving way. I Apart from the terrible human and social cost of wanted to reinforce his point. According to emergency cycling fatalities and serious injuries, there is a financial departments that see children, 90% receive injuries from cost to the country and to society. According to the non-vehicle-related accidents. We always hear, “Oh, it’s Department for Transport’s own report, the total value because you are going to be knocked over by a car”, but of preventing reported road accidents in 2010 was most accidents do not involve a vehicle and are cycling estimated to be £15 billion. Let me put that in context. accidents alone. The entire transport budget for 2010-11 was just over £12 billion, and The Times manifesto calling for 2% of Alok Sharma: I thank my hon. Friend for making the Highways Agency’s budget to go towards cycle that point and for reinforcing the fact that we are routes would amount to around £80 million. The average discussing wearing helmets not only on roads but off value of preventing every reported road accident was road. almost £1.8 million for a fatality, over £200,000 for a We were discussing the understatement in police records serious accident and over £20,000 for a slight accident. compared with NHS records of injuries and why that One clear way of cutting down on the human, social could be. One of the key reasons, for children, is that and financial cost of cycling accidents, particularly many such injuries take place off road, as my hon. those involving children, is through wearing cycle helmets. Friend has just pointed out. The total figure for cycle-related I am pleased that all hon. Members who have contributed hospital admissions, however, includes only patients to this debate so far agree. The time has come for the who occupy a bed. Those who attend A and E are not Government to consider very seriously the case for included in that 9,000. That, of course, does not include introducing the mandatory wearing of cycle helmets for any gap between unreported and reported incidents children. I know that this is a controversial issue, and involving only slight accidents, so the total number of the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) shakes cycle-related injuries receiving hospital treatment is likely his head, so I presume that he does not agree. to be much higher than any of the statistics that I The hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway outlined suggest. It is appropriate that the debate about (Mr Brown) said that a private Member’s Bill in 2004 cost includes not just the human and social cost, but the did not make progress, but it was supported by a wide financial cost of cycling injuries and fatalities. We must range of organisations including the Royal College of look at the broader picture, and the larger figures. Nursing, the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Head injuries ranging from fatal skull fractures and Health, the safety charity Brake, the Child Accident brain damage to minor concussion and cuts are common Prevention Trust, the Child Brain Injury Trust, and the in cyclists. I understand from the information published brain injury association Headway. Last year, the British by the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents Medical Association welcomed a Bill in the Northern that hospital data show that an estimated 45% of child Ireland Assembly to make wearing helmets compulsory, cyclists admitted to hospitals have suffered head injuries. but unfortunately it did not make progress. The World That is a high percentage indeed. Undoubtedly, some of Health Organisation has also stated that laws mandating those injuries would have been reduced or may not have helmet use can be effective in reducing road traffic occurred if a cycle helmet had been worn. accident injuries. A recent Transport Research Laboratory report, which Many countries in Europe have laws on wearing cycle was published in 2009 and commissioned by the helmets, and we would not be the first to introduce such Department for Transport, reached several conclusions a law. In Europe, it is mandatory in Finland, where all about the efficacy of wearing cycle helmets. It concluded cyclists are required to wear cycle helmets; in Spain, it is that helmets, assuming that they are a good fit and mandatory outside built-up areas; in the Czech Republic, properly worn, are effective in reducing the risk of head it is mandatory for children under 16, in Iceland, for injuries. They are expected to be effective in a range of children under 15, in Sweden, for children under 15, accidents, particularly the most common accidents that and in 2010, it became mandatory in Austria for children do not involve a collision with another vehicle but, as under 10. Outside Europe, helmets are mandatory in my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough said, Australia, New Zealand, 20 states of the USA and some are falls or tumbles over handlebars. Canadian provinces. We would not break new ground The report concluded that a specialist biomechanical by at least considering the introduction of such a law. assessment of more than 100 police forensic cyclist Introducing a cycle helmet law will not suddenly fatality reports predicted that between 10% and 16% of solve the problem of road safety, and many hon. Members fatalities could have been prevented if the cyclists had in previous debates have made that point. That is why I worn an appropriate helmet. Those who do not believe started this debate by talking about other measures that that we should have compulsory wearing of cycle helmets need to be introduced to make our roads safer. They say that, at the end of the day, helmets will not save include segregated and dedicated cycle paths and routes. lives. It has been shown conclusively in an independent Returning to the point that my hon. Friend the report produced by the Department that in some cases Member for Wellingborough made, we can make our they do. roads safer, but that may not reduce cycling injuries in Most interestingly, the report concluded that cycle children, because many of their injuries occur off road. helmets would be particularly effective for children. I The argument that we would drive people off the roads could go into the reasons for that, but I am sure the and discourage them from cycling does not hold water. Minister, if he has time, will explain them. Yet a 2008 Wearing cycle helmets saves lives and reduces injuries, Transport Research Laboratory report, commissioned and even the most hardened opponents of cycle helmets by the Department for Transport, estimated that only acknowledge that. A key argument by anti-helmet 18% of children and 35% of adults wear helmets on the campaigners is that making them compulsory will put road. people off cycling, will therefore not help in reducing 185WH Cycling Safety21 NOVEMBER 2012 Cycling Safety 186WH carbon emissions and will discourage a healthier lifestyle. a law requiring children to wear a cycle helmet. In Some organisations have produced statistics showing particular, I want it to look at whether such a law would that the mandatory wearing of helmets might save tens deter cycling in the longer term and whether parents of lives, but that a reduction in the number people would support it. I am a parent; I cycle, and my children cycling would result in people perishing earlier than cycle. I am not part of any lobby or group. There are expected because of obesity. I am not sure that that is a millions of people like me and my children, and they are serious contribution to the debate. the ones we should be listening to and whose views we International evidence suggests that mandatory helmet should be getting, before we decide whether it is right to wearing, particularly for children, does not result in a introduce such a law. long-term drop in cycling. Some studies have concluded— The Department could make a pretty easy start by one in Australia is often cited, but it was about 20 years introducing a few extra questions in the Sport England ago—that introducing compulsory helmet wearing may Active People survey. It could ask cyclists whether they result in a temporary decline, but that the medium to regularly wear helmets or ask their children to wear long-term effect is likely to be negligible. Other studies helmets. It could ask them whether they would support have concluded from experience in the States and elsewhere, a law making it mandatory for children to wear helmets. particularly where laws were introduced only for child The Horses (Protected Headgear for Young Riders) cyclists, that there has been no reduction in cycling Act 1990 made it mandatory for young children riding a following the introduction of such laws. International horse on the public highway to wear protective headgear. experience suggests that the wearing of helmets can be If such a law makes sense for young horse riders, surely introduced successfully without resulting in a long-term it should make sense for children on bicycles. We are decline in cycling. talking about a measure that will save lives, and prevent Logically, a rule affecting only children should not injuries and unnecessary cost. I look forward to the discourage adult cyclists. The right hon. Member for Minister’s response. Exeter has in previous debates made the point that the more people cycle on roads, the safer it will be. Children Several hon. Members rose— of five, six, seven, eight, nine or 10 are not part of a group that consistently cycles on roads, so introducing a Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair): Order. Before Members cycle helmet law for them will not deter adults from start, I should point out that it is 3.13 pm, and four cycling. Members have indicated that they wish to speak. To One thing that puts children off wearing cycle helmets, help you manage your time, I should say that that is of course, is peer pressure, especially as they enter roughly five or six minutes each, if we are going to have secondary school. It is not always considered cool to interventions. If Members could bear that in mind and wear a helmet, but if we can change attitudes by introducing help one another, it would be appreciated. a law, so that it becomes the norm—almost second nature—to wear cycle helmets from a young age, that 3.13 pm will stick with children in adolescence and adulthood. I have two young daughters; we go out cycling fairly Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): Thank you, often, and they were brought up wearing cycle helmets. Mr Havard. Let me say at the outset that, given the time I must admit that I do not always wear one, but when I the hon. Member for Reading West (Alok Sharma) has cycle with my daughters, the peer pressure works the taken for his speech, I do not intend to take interventions. other way, and they absolutely insist that I wear a cycle I congratulate the hon. Gentleman very much on helmet, too. If we can get children into a mindset securing the debate, which is one of a number we have whereby they think it is absolutely the norm to wear had recently on cycle safety. This is a very important cycle helmets, we will see a change in attitudes, and they issue, not least given the worrying news that this year, will wear cycle helmets into adolescence and adulthood. for the first time in many years, there has been an That change will mean that we see significantly fewer increase not only in deaths and serious injuries on the fatalities and injuries, not only on the roads, but off road, but in cycle deaths and injuries. The hon. Gentleman them. made a brilliant speech about a whole range of measures The hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman), that could be introduced to help take those figures back who has left his place, made a good point about wearing in the right direction, and I was absolutely with him car seat belts. I was a teenager when the law was until he came to cycle helmets. I was even with him, to introduced, and wearing seat belts certainly was not the start with, when he talked about encouragement and norm. I was not a particularly rebellious teenager, but I exhortation, but I am afraid that as soon as he used the did not always follow the rules. However, after a few term “compulsion”, he lost me, and I will outline briefly months, when everybody else is doing it, we do it too, the reasons for that. and it absolutely becomes the norm. Thinking back, I urge those hon. Members who press for compulsory people will say, “Wasn’t it astonishing that people railed cycle helmets, and the organisations that have lobbied against the introduction of a law on seat belts?” If we them, to study the evidence. The hon. Gentleman said get to the point where we can introduce a law making it he wanted a policy that was based on evidence, and we compulsory for children to wear helmets, I hope we will should study not only the evidence, but the myriad look back after a few years and wonder what the fuss debates we have had in the House since I came here in was all about. 1997. We should also talk to the organisations that The Department for Transport’s report concluded represent cyclists. I speak as a lifelong cyclist, a former that wearing helmets is beneficial, especially for children. chairman of the all-party group on cycling, a former I am asking the Department to commission a definitive, Health Minister and someone who cares deeply about independent report on the benefits and costs of introducing the safety of cyclists and young cyclists in particular. 187WH Cycling Safety21 NOVEMBER 2012 Cycling Safety 188WH

[Mr Ben Bradshaw] room, the Twittersphere will be filled with hate mail for him. It is extraordinary how members of the public and The reason why the House has repeatedly rejected the cycling groups can object to anyone who suggests that idea of compulsory cycle helmets is that, overall, it we recommend wearing a helmet; that is so wrong. would create a public health disaster, and I will explain There is a simple statistic that always amazes me: why. Wherever cycle helmets have been made compulsory 15% to 21% of young people wear a helmet and 35% to —whether in Canada, New Zealand or Australia—that 40% of adults wear one. So parents are happy to go out has had such a detrimental impact on cycling rates that and put a helmet on their heads to protect themselves, the overall impact on children’s health and the health of but will not do it for their children. I do not think society as a whole has been deeply negative. The hon. anyone would regard me as a pinko lefty liberal. That is Gentleman used an important statistic, which is essential not the view of me in the House. Yet it is clear to me to the whole subject of cycle safety, when he said that that the right thing to do is to bring in the mandatory the benefits of cycling outweigh the risks by 20 to one. wearing of cycle helmets for young people. I introduced In Western Australia, which has had a lot of experience a ten-minute rule Bill to that effect. The reason for that of this issue because it has had a law on it for more than is simple. Children’s skulls are not developed, so the 20 years, cycling decreased by more than 30%, and it protection of a helmet is even more important for them decreased faster among young people. That has been than for an adult. Children cannot assess the dangers as the experience in every country that has made cycle an adult can. If adults freely decide to wear helmets it is helmets compulsory. By all means encourage, by all absurd not to tell children that they must wear them. means exhort and by all means have campaigns, but My hon. Friend talked about horse riding. We now please do not, based on the best intentions, pursue a require children to wear helmets on the cricket field policy that is deeply counter-productive and that will when they are batting and if they are keeping wicket. cause more premature death, more obesity and more ill That has worked well, and now more adult players wear health among young people. helmets, both when they keep and when they bat. If I This is completely different from the seat belt issue. had been wearing a helmet when I tried to hook this guy The last time the British Medical Journal was asked for for four off a bouncer, I would not have lost most of the its opinion on this issue, its board of education and sight in my right eye. I was old enough to make that science concluded: decision, but when it comes to cycling, surely we should “Cyclists are advised to wear helmets but legislation to make protect children by law. them compulsory is likely to reduce the number of people choosing I know that that is not the Government’s view, and I to cycle and would not be in the interests of health”. entirely understand their point of view. The previous The BMJ added that research suggested that Minister made it clear; but he also made it clear that he “non-cyclists tended to be most in favour of helmets. In fact, a would do anything outside legislation to promote the much greater number of lives would be saved if pedestrians and wearing of cycle helmets, and in the past few months I car occupants were encouraged to wear helmets.” am afraid that things have gone backwards from that. I An analysis of the experience in Western Australia, want to read from a letter to the Prime Minister, from which was the first place in the world to impose uniform the Bicycle Helmet Initiative Trust, which is a splendid mandatory cycle helmet legislation, showed that the organisation. I deal with many charities in my role as a legislation increased hospital admissions per cyclist on Member of Parliament, and there are those that do the road, reduced the popularity of cycling, damaged something at grass roots, and care about something, public health and increased all road casualties. and those that just talk about things and are worried I therefore urge the hon. Gentleman to go back to the about their next grant. The trust is a small charity that evidence and the debates that we have had in this cares and does something about it. Angie Lee is a feisty House, and to pursue with all his energy and time the lady who has been fighting on this question for a long many measures that will help to protect children and time. She is a trauma nurse and sees the results of improve child health and cycling safety. He himself dreadful injuries. I think she needs to be supported. She cited the excellent campaign by The Times and its has written a powerful letter to the Prime Minister, eight-point wish list. I gently suggest that The Times which is dated 16 October, and which unfortunately has took great care in assessing the most important things not been replied to or even acknowledged by him, but that needed to happen to save the lives of cyclists and she puts the case much better than I can. She says: young cyclists. Compulsory cycle helmets were not among “When we last communicated back in March this year, you them, and there is a reason for that. conveyed to me that the Government and the DfT encouraged the use of cycle helmets, especially for children. This offered me some assurance along with the confidence we had in the then Roads 3.18 pm Safety minister, Mike Penning. I have not had the opportunity to meet his replacement, Stephen Hammond, as yet. Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): It is a great However, what you conveyed to me is in reality not the case. pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Exeter There is a fundamental conflict between sectors of the DfT, the (Mr Bradshaw), although I am afraid I agreed with road safety sector and the sustainable transport unit, with helmets virtually nothing that he said. I welcome the new Minister, being the ‘sell off’. Over the last two years we have seen a for whom we have great hopes. He is following on from systematic move to undermine helmet use and its benefits and to an excellent Minister, who is now in the Northern exclude stakeholders, like ourselves, from being included on forums Ireland Office, and whose work on cycle helmets we where cycling and helmets are discussed. It was only through the commitment of Mike that helmets remained high on the agenda. certainly appreciate. Your coalition minister, Norman Baker, has publicly voiced his I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Reading negative views on helmets and their use. Mr Baker’s personal West (Alok Sharma) on being brave enough to introduce choice and opinion have been widely used by cycling trainers and this really important debate. By the time he leaves this organisations to legitimise opposition to helmets. The attached 189WH Cycling Safety21 NOVEMBER 2012 Cycling Safety 190WH document used by the UK’s largest provider of Bikeability training, dangers for cyclists on the roads. Prior to the incident Cycle Training UK, demonstrates this. This organisation also Bradley Wiggins had often spoken about the need to uses your picture to support its stance. We understand that Mr improve road safety for cyclists. Our roads grow ever Baker has set up and leads a forum of selected cycle stakeholders. busier, and there is an absolute need for all road users, This is not open to all, but only a selected few who appear to us to be of a similar opinion. Mr Baker appears to be using his whether cyclists or motorists, to take individual ministerial position to support his personal preference not to responsibility for being as safe as possible on the roads. wear a helmet. That responsibility means not behaving in a way that This is not the only conflict to be of concern to us. Last month endangers other road users, but for cyclists it also the DfT launched a new Think! Campaign. The poster design is means taking the appropriate precautions to keep their dreadful. It depicts a ‘green man’ cyclist without helmet, bike bikes and themselves safe, including always wearing a lights or reflector band. The ‘green man’ car driver has no seat helmet. For motorists it would include not speeding, belt on. These fundamental safety actions were all identified by a and being cautious when passing cyclists. group of ten year olds whom I showed the poster to. I also understand that the DfT had discussed using Olympic cyclist, Today The Times not only showed the serious dangers Bradley Wiggins, to launch this campaign but the CTC objected that cyclists face, but referred to the fact that this year, and Mr Wiggins was excluded because of his positive views on which is unparalleled in terms of the success and popularity cycle helmets. If this is the case, then there is a serious strength of of cycling, the number of cyclists killed on British roads bias that is undermining the independence and impartiality within is sadly on course to reach a five-year high. According the department. to analysis by Transport for London, which was quoted These conflicts, bias and segregation are damaging the work of in the article, 56% of cyclists’ deaths are caused by organisations like ourselves, who have little or no access to DfT motorists’ “unlawful and anti-social” manner, yet only funding. We had drawn up a business case following a meeting we 6% of collisions are caused by cyclists behaving in the had with Mike Penning but since his departure, this, not surprisingly, same way. Some people argue that we need to consider has not progressed as we were expecting. We have invested vast amounts of energy, conviction and hard earned funds in the how properly to integrate cycling into the modern transport attempt to protect child and youth cyclists and support the road network. I would not, however, encourage anybody to safety agenda. We have the skills and knowledge to take child follow the example of West Lancashire borough council, cycle safety forward. However, we are not able to overcome which has invested section 106 money building a cycle constructed obstacles, bias and use of poor science. path to junction 4 on the M58. We certainly do not need Both adult and child cycling casualties are increasing. This is to encourage cyclists towards the motorway network. down to poor guidance, personal obstruction and a failure to be It is important to discuss whether making cycling open and objective to all views in the interest of a holistic helmets compulsory can improve cyclists’ safety. It does approach to this issue. improve it, but the reality is that there are times when a I have had the support of the DfT for 20 years, working with helmet does not offer enough protection from dangerous changing Governments and numerous ministers over this period. It is, however, the first time that I truly believe that children and driving. In such cases, we need to consider how motorists young people are being ‘sold off’ in the interest of sustainable who cause fatal collisions are dealt with through the transport. Who are the winners? Who is gaining the most and judicial process. At present, a view is that the inconsistencies what checks and balances are in place to evaluate this? in the charging and sentencing of motorists involved in You know how hard our charity works. We have been held up collisions with cyclists is very worrying. as the true ‘big society’. Child cycle safety needs people who are in Everybody knows of Bradley Wiggins, but people tune with child and youth needs, who are not financially driven will not know of Christine Favager, who was another and who are determined to lead on this issue despite external cyclist involved in a collision in my constituency.Tragically, negative extremists.” this time it was a fatal accident. Sixty-nine year old Christine was cycling along a rural road, Asmall lane, in Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair): Order. This is a very Scarisbrick. The accident happened at about 7.40 pm long quotation. Quotations are meant to be quotations on a July evening in 2011—not on a dark, wintery rather than essays. night. The 19-year-old driver was travelling between 59 and 63 mph as he raced into a bend. He was Mr Bone: I am conscious that I may be running over travelling too fast and too close to another car as he time, so I will not complete it, but I think the Minister entered that bend, and witnesses saw the car swerve has got the flavour of what Angie says. The issue is right across two lanes. In over-correcting, the driver was important; if possible would he nudge the Prime Minister forced across the road to avoid hitting the car in front, to reply on that vital issue? I know that the Minister’s which meant that Christine was hit head on. She had sympathies are with people wearing helmets, but I think been cycling in the opposite direction. Initially, the that there has been a movement away from that in his driver was reported as being arrested under suspicion of Department in the past few weeks. causing death by dangerous driving. He subsequently pleaded guilty to causing death by careless driving. A 3.28 pm 20-month custodial sentence in a young offenders’ institute and a three-year driving ban were handed down to him. Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): It is a pleasure Christine’s family lost a very dear member. to serve under your chairmanship today, Mr Havard, That case highlights one of the complaints from on the first of two occasions. I congratulate the hon. cycling groups, which is that often the lesser charge of Member for Reading West (Alok Sharma) on securing death by careless driving is pursued, as opposed to the the debate, which comes after some high-profile cycling charge of death by dangerous driving. incidents, and today’s report in The Times. The hon. Gentleman mentioned Bradley Wiggins Mr Bradshaw: My hon. Friend gives an example of being knocked off his bike on 7 November in Wrightington someone receiving a custodial sentence. I am sure she is in my constituency. For obvious reasons the case received aware that in a great many cases, drivers who kill significant national media coverage and highlighted the cyclists and pedestrians do not even get that. 191WH Cycling Safety21 NOVEMBER 2012 Cycling Safety 192WH

Rosie Cooper: I appreciate my right hon. Friend’s a law for 14-year-olds and under. There is an issue of point. The case I described happened in my constituency, freedom of choice, but it is a vulnerable age group, and which is why I referred to it, but there truly is great are we doing everything that we can? outrage out there at the sentences being handed down It is suggested that my comments will result in the to motorists who kill in such circumstances. next generation of children being obese, but I find that If we are to improve the safety of cyclists on our difficult to believe. I would like to join the call made by roads, there has to be an extensive range of measures my hon. Friend the Member for Reading West, not for that will offer protection and act as a deterrent to the setting up of the law, but for a review of the erratic and dangerous behaviour on our roads. All road evidence. I have heard the Australian evidence quoted users, whether they are cyclists, pedestrians or motorists, to me so many times, but we need to know whether we depend on us getting the law right. would be deterring children in large numbers from cycling. There must be a lot of evidence out there; we should look at it and at the end of the day, ensure that 3.34 pm we put our children first. Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): I will move fairly quickly over some of the issues that 3.38 pm have been raised, and I start by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Reading West (Alok Sharma) Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): I on securing the debate. He comprehensively covered the congratulate the hon. Member for Reading West (Alok whole range of measures that we need to take to improve Sharma) on securing the debate, which comes at a time cycling safety. With cycling, there must be a package of when cycle safety is so high on the public agenda, and measures, right through to dealing with those important on the compelling case that he made for improving instances highlighted by the hon. Member for West cycling safety. Lancashire (Rosie Cooper), when we are all concerned The work of campaigning organisations, coupled about sentences perhaps not matching the incident in with high-profile accidents, has raised awareness and question. I understand the points that she made. led to demands for better protection for cyclists. It is For a long time, I have been involved, in a fairly small heartening to see Members on both sides of the House way, in promoting cycling. It is so important— here today, and I hope that anyone watching the debate environmentally, for transport purposes, for health and will be left in no doubt that MPs are taking cycling leisure, as well as for family activities. In the early 1990s, safety seriously. Politicians have a duty to promote I was chair of planning and highways at Poole borough cycling and to help create environments in which cycling council, where we introduced a big network of cycleways. can flourish. The health benefits of cycling are well We are moving forward; how exciting it was this year known, and we now have a better understanding of how with the Tour de France, Bradley Wiggins, the Olympic high levels of cycling can lead to cleaner and stronger success, and then seeing all those youngsters out on communities. However, safety concerns are a serious their bikes. It was absolutely amazing. I am still staggered barrier, especially for those people considering making walking the streets in London to see the number of the switch to cycling. It is imperative that those barriers people on bikes. It is all absolutely fantastic. I be lifted. I pay tribute to the cyclists’ organisations that wholeheartedly support The Times campaign, which have lobbied for higher standards for many years, as has driven this issue much further forward than we well as to the Cities Fit for Cycling campaign by The could have hoped to do by ourselves as parliamentarians. Times. I want to touch briefly, however, on the issue of cycle Although cycling is generally a safe activity, there are helmets. I, too, have worked with the Bicycle Helmet still issues to be tackled. There are many areas where Initiative Trust, and I have also worked with local cyclists’ safety can be improved, but it is equally important organisations. I am a patron of Headway Dorset and in that we do not undo the progress that has been made. Dorset, we have an organisation called Streetwise. It is a Cycling casualties rose by 12% last year, with serious safety centre that covers all aspects of safety education, injuries rising by 16%, as we have heard. The Times but it and the volunteers who work there are very reports today that fatalities are now set to outstrip last concerned about cycling safety. A competition has recently year’s toll, making this year the worst for cycling deaths been promoted among schools to design cycle helmets since 2007. Although that tragic rise may not have a to raise awareness of how important it is to wear them. single cause, the abolition of national safety targets was Raising awareness of that issue is crucial, and if we condemned by many in the cycling community, and my could achieve all that was needed to be achieved by hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) doing that, we would not have to look any further. was right to raise that issue today. I sometimes wonder why we need to go further. I look National targets had been in place in one form or at BMX cycling on the television, and they are all another since 1987 and had enjoyed cross-party support. wearing helmets, as, for the most part, are the children Although there is scope for reform of national targets, I at the local skate parks. However, there does seem to be wanted to highlight their importance early in this debate, a common issue that it is not quite cool enough to wear because I hope that this is an area where a new cross-party one. It is certainly not good for a young person’s hairstyle consensus can be achieved. Indeed, the need for national at the age of 12 or 13, and it does not help if their friend safety standards is a theme that should be emphasised. is not wearing one. I have spoken to so many parents Better training for both cyclists and drivers would cut who say, “If only there was a law about this, I would feel accidents and fatalities, but local programmes are too happier about my child cycling.” When I raise such often dependent on bids for central Government funding. issues—I am thinking of this from the children’s Labour has called for long-term dedicated funding standpoint—I have only ever looked at the possibility of for cycling proficiency training under the Bikeability 193WH Cycling Safety21 NOVEMBER 2012 Cycling Safety 194WH programme to be restored, along with the restoration of According to the Department for Transport’s own school travel plans to raise awareness of walking and figures, rail freight use would have gone up by 732% by cycling among children. Cycle safety should also become 2025 if the decision had not been made to allow longer an integral part of the driving test. HGVs. Rail freight is now projected to go up by 262% Cyclists would also benefit from dedicated funding instead. I hope that, in the interests of tackling congestion for improvements to existing infrastructure. That is why and improving road safety, the Government will look Labour has called for a portion of the roads budget to again at the issue, with a view to reversing that change. be ring-fenced—so that communities can build up networks All the measures that I have described would have of cycleways. Too many junctions are dangerous for safety benefits in their own right, but the overall impact cyclists and need to be redesigned. That approach has is of vital importance as well. The wider effect would be been highly successful in northern Europe, and we to normalise cycling. I have seen for myself how cycling should seek to replicate that success. Those improvements is a way of life for a striking number of people in can be delivered, but planners need to know that funding Copenhagen and Malmö, where the long-standing will be available. determination of national and local politicians to deliver We also back the call by The Times for cycling investment has reaped dividends. We need the same commissioners in every city, to encourage local initiatives. quality of leadership on cycling in the UK. We should They would benefit from a cycle audit, which would not accept the Government’s retreat from promoting help to map out danger spots, as well as a new planning national standards. toolkit that drew on the lessons of the successful cycling That leads me to the issue of helmets and the case city and towns programme, which was axed by the that some people have made for them to be compulsory. current Government. A new test—a cycling safety I have no doubt that helmets can effectively protect assessment—should be met before new road and major cyclists, particularly in low-impact collisions, and I would transport schemes are granted planning approval. Our encourage their use, particularly by children, but I do existing roads were not designed with the needs of not believe that compulsion is the answer. As my right cyclists in mind, but we can at least correct that historical hon. Friend the Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) imbalance in the future. The “Manual for Streets” explained, where compulsory helmet laws have been guidelines, which placed pedestrians and cyclists at the introduced, they have been associated with a decline in top of the user hierarchy, represented a good start. We bicycle use, including by children. After helmets became should look to build on that principle. mandatory in Australia in 1991, cycle use in Perth Everyone agrees that reducing speed will improve dropped by up to 40%. In New Zealand, cycling levels road safety and save lives. Real progress has been made halved between 1994 and 2006. Compulsory helmet on lowering speed limits in residential areas, with a laws in both Israel and New Mexico were deemed to be city-wide 20-mph limit being introduced in Portsmouth unsuccessful, with cycling levels dropping to the point and many additional schemes in other towns and cities. at which the viability of bicycle-sharing facilities was We are looking at ways to support more local authorities put at risk. to make the switch to 20 mph, but the removal of funding for speed cameras and the possible raising of Any substantial drop in cycle usage can in itself have the motorway speed limit mean that we have had mixed a serious impact on safety. The safety-in-numbers effect signals on road safety from this Government. means that when cycling levels increase, so does driver awareness and demand for infrastructure investment; We also need to see action on one of the major safety conversely, when levels fall, individual cyclists may be at hazards for cyclists—heavy goods vehicles. They account greater risk. An example of the safety-in-numbers effect for a disproportionate number of deaths and serious can be found in the Netherlands, where cycling levels injuries on the roads—a risk that was brought home to are high and relatively few people wear helmets. British us last year when Mary Bowers, the young Times reporter, cyclists are three times more likely to be killed on the almost lost her life after being crushed by a lorry. A roads than their Dutch counterparts. collaboration by Queen Mary, university of London and Barts and The London NHS Trust looked at the There is simply no quick fix for these issues. If we effect of heavy goods vehicles on cyclists’ safety. The want more people to take up cycling, we need sustained conclusions that they reached are startling. Of patients investment and a more supportive attitude to cycling in brought to the Royal London hospital, cyclists hit by a general. British Cycling has said: car suffered a mortality rate of 6%. For those hit by “Helmets can help save lives in many incidents and we recommend HGVs, the rate was 21%. Of the most seriously injured they are worn…What would contribute much, much more to cyclists, 82% had been hit by some form of motorised making cycling safer is better road infrastructure.” vehicle, but the overwhelming majority—73%—had been My hon. Friend the Member for West Lancashire hit by a heavy goods vehicle. According to Transport (Rosie Cooper) noted that there have been some unhelpful for London, goods vehicles now account for half of all comments in the media about the causes of accidents, cyclist fatalities in the capital. and I would like to deal with that point. Everyone on There is a clear need for action, and we have set out the roads has a duty to act responsibly. For cyclists, that our support for reform. We would work with the industry of course includes using lights at night and cycling in a to equip lorries with safety equipment, including blind-spot safe and law-abiding way. However, the truth is that mirrors and side protection to help to stop cyclists cyclists are at fault only in a minority of collisions. That falling under their wheels. Those upgrades could be is why alongside training for cyclists, we urgently need funded through the proposed HGV road-charging scheme. better training for motorists and lorry drivers in particular. We would invest in on-street infrastructure, including As I said, we need dedicated funding for infrastructure Trixi mirrors at junctions. More rigorous and comprehensive improvements. We need the Times Cities Fit for Cycling training is needed for lorry drivers, and we would work manifesto to be implemented in full and we need national with the industry to achieve that as a priority. standards to be upheld. 195WH Cycling Safety21 NOVEMBER 2012 Cycling Safety 196WH

[Lilian Greenwood] The Government have invested substantially in road infrastructure and other safety angles, as my hon. Friend As a regular cyclist myself, I appreciate the importance the Member for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman of cycle safety standards. If we are serious about modal Chishti) pointed out. The local sustainable transport shift and tackling inactivity levels, we must make our fund is targeting £600 million of investment over four roads safer and more attractive for cyclists and pedestrians. years to look at local networks. Almost all the projects This debate has provided another vital opportunity to funded so far include infrastructure improvements for highlight the work that has been done and the work that cycling. I could give examples, but will not due to the we still need to do. Labour will continue to advance time. Improvements include landscaping, resurfacing, proposals to make our roads safer, and we will keep the repainting, new lighting and adding new parts to junctions pressure on the Government to strengthen their position to improve the safety of cycle routes. on cycling safety. The Department is working on other ways to reduce risk. We have made it considerably simpler for councils Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair): Mr Hammond, would to install Trixi mirrors to improve the visibility of you like to give all those answers to Mr Bone’s 10-year-olds cyclists at junctions and to put in place 20 mph limits and on behalf of the Prime Minister? and zones. I strongly encourage councils to consider the greater use of such 20 mph zones in residential areas, 3.49 pm because they clearly have an impact on the safety of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport cyclists and pedestrians. We have also made it easier for (Stephen Hammond): I am delighted to speak under councils to introduce contraflow cycling by changing your chairmanship, Mr Havard. I think that it would be signage laws, so fewer signs need to be used. I am presumptuous of me to provide an answer on behalf of working closely with cycle safety stakeholder groups on my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, but I certainly other issues and infrastructure measures that the local listened to what my hon. Friend the Member for sustainable transport fund can bring forward. We have Wellingborough (Mr Bone) said and I will come to his made £30 million available to local councils up and comments in a moment. down the country to tackle the most difficult and dangerous junctions. I particularly thank my hon. Friend the Member for Reading West (Alok Sharma) and congratulate him on My hon. Friend the Member for Reading West the debate. He made an excellent speech—a serious mentioned HGVs. The hon. Member for Nottingham speech. A number of questions came up, and I will try South is right that training is crucial for HGV drivers, to tackle as many of them as I can in the short time operators, transport managers and employers. That is available. I am sure that if I do not respond to them all, why I am pleased that the Freight Transport Association, he will want to write to me, and I will be happy to put with Government support and backing, introduced a the replies on the record. I particularly welcome the cycling code last year. I was delighted to be at the debate. launch of the Mineral Products Association’s new drivers’ I listened carefully to what the hon. Member for awareness campaign. It targeted young cyclists at Hyde Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) said, and yes, park, where a number of them stopped to see how of course there is more to do, but I hope that she difficult it is for even the most well trained drivers to recognises the great deal that the Government are doing. spot cyclists, even in the most well equipped lorries with We take the promotion of cycling, the ability to cycle a blind-side mirror and other safety implements. The safely and our responsibilities seriously. Cycling is not Government are behind that awareness campaign, and I just a convenient, healthy and green way to travel, as support the investment from the MPA and the FTA. hon. Members have said, but relatively inexpensive, and All EU member states have implemented the European therefore accessible to many. There has never been a legislation, which applies to almost all HGVs used in better time for people to get on their bikes, and that is domestic and foreign trade. We continue to drive that exactly what we are seeing. agenda in Europe, to ensure that mirrors are required The trend started after Beijing 2008, which reignited for new vehicles. We have provided £30 million to make the passion for cycling for many people. As my hon. potentially hazardous junctions across England safer Friend the Member for Reading West pointed out, after for cyclists. Of that, £15 million is going to London, the heroics of the Olympics, Paralympics and Tour de because we recognise that in London in particular there France, not only have we seen thousands more people has been a huge increase in cycling and in the number of cycling, but we expect hundreds of thousands more people wishing to access the roads more safely. people to take to two wheels. In some parts of London, We are working with partners, through the Department cyclists already seem to outnumber other vehicles. for Transport cycling stakeholder forum, on a wide I commend The Times’s excellent cycling campaign; range of issues, including safety. I will meet the group in we have taken much of it on board. The hon. Member the near future. It is inclusive: it includes cyclists, motorists for Nottingham South was right to commend also and representatives from local authorities and the Freight British Cycling, Sustrans, the Bicycle Association of Transport Association, because not having all those Great Britain, London Cycling Campaign and C2C, all people on such a body would mean missing out on of which lobby heavily, carefully and thoughtfully for opportunities. We strongly encourage local authorities cycling. It is distressing that, although the number of to follow the example of some of the schemes that we cycling fatalities has been falling—fatalities decreased have set up and those set up previously to consider between 2010 and 2011—the number of serious injuries actions to improve safety for cyclists has increased. As road safety Minister, I am determined In the short time available, I shall touch on helmets, to ensure that our roads are as safe they can be for because the issue has come up a number of times today. everyone who uses them, whatever the mode of transport. In 2009, the Government commissioned and published 197WH Cycling Safety 21 NOVEMBER 2012 198WH a report entitled, “The potential for cycle helmets to Dyslexia (Prisons) prevent injury”. It concluded that helmets could be expected to reduce fatalities and injuries in the event of an accident, particularly if a vehicle was not involved. 4pm No evidence was found of helmets adding any additional Rebecca Harris (Castle Point) (Con): It is a pleasure injury risk. Let me make it clear that the Department to have the opportunity to raise this important issue. I for Transport supports the promotion of cycle helmets, am doing so because of a whirlwind or, as some might through measures such as Highway Code rule 59. I was say, a force of nature, who entered one of my constituency also pleased to initiate the recent THINK! campaign in surgeries earlier this year—my constituent, Jackie Hewitt- September. The Government are putting more money Main. She came to tell me about a project she had into Bikeability cycle training and have committed more undertaken in Chelmsford Prison, “Dyslexia Behind money to it over the next three years. The Department Bars”. also makes its support clear on its webpage and through other schemes. During that project, she assessed more than 2,000 offenders for special educational needs, and attempted We equally accept that helmets are a matter of to work with them to help them understand their learning exhortation rather than compulsion. My hon. Friend difficulties and to succeed where the education system the Member for Wellingborough made a powerful speech. had so far failed them. The effect on the re-offending He is right that the former Minister was excellent and rates of the inmates who took part is truly astounding, showed strength on this matter—I am not sure that I and I want to bring that to the full attention of the will live up to my hon. Friend’s hopes. I entirely agree House and the Government. I believe that Jackie’s work with him; anything outside legislation to promote and gives an invaluable insight into how we can break down exhort the wearing of cycle helmets, I will do in my role the barriers that prevent offenders from becoming safe as road safety Minister. I am happy, first, to nudge the and productive members of their community, once they Prime Minister to ensure that he answers my hon. have repaid their debt to society. Friend, and, secondly, to accept his invitation to a meeting. I am sure that he will write to my officials I will explain Jackie’s project and her findings later, about that. but first I want to analyse the extent of the special learning needs among our national inmate population. One of my first acts as road safety Minister was to The sad truth is that no one is at all sure how many announce the first THINK! Cyclist campaign. Many people in our prisons actually suffer from dyslexia or will know that we have used the THINK! label for a other learning difficulties. In most cases, the information number of road safety campaigns, but we have not had accompanying people into prison is unlikely to show a campaign dedicated to cycling for 10 years. It concentrates whether learning difficulties or learning disabilities have on the behaviour of cyclists and motorists, by getting been identified. those who cycle, who are often motorists as well, to think about how they behave on the road as motorists Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I and how they want people to behave towards them as congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important cyclists. I would like to go into more detail on that debate. On collation, is she saying that the Government campaign, but I accept the comment that the little green should collate information on offenders with dyslexia man should have been wearing his helmet. A number of who go to prison? cities have taken up the campaign and I continue to spend time promoting it. I am convinced that THINK! Rebecca Harris: There is good reason why that Cyclist can have a beneficial effect on road safety. information should be collated nationally. I am aware I am acutely aware that we are coming to the end of that the Government are moving to a system of payment our debate. Cycling offers huge benefits to both the by results, under which market mechanisms might pick individual and society. The challenge, which remains a up such issues and ensure that we address them properly. challenge for the Government, is to continue to ensure that our roads are as safe as we can make them. Investment Rehman Chishti: On that point about payment by is therefore going into infrastructure and the training of results, does my hon. Friend agree that when an offender young people, and we exhort people to wear cycle enters prison and has a health needs assessment looking helmets. I hope that when we have a debate on this at speech and language communication, a dyslexia subject in a years’ time, as I am sure we will, the trends assessment should be undertaken at the same time? will not only seem to be downwards, but be proven to be downwards. Rebecca Harris: I absolutely do, and given what I will be saying, I hope that many others will agree with my hon. Friend and me about that. According to the Prison Reform Trust report “No One Knows”, fully half the offenders in British prisons have problems with basic literary skills. It notes: “The most consistent information about the number of offenders with learning difficulties or learning disabilities is that no one agrees on how many exist.” With regard to dyslexia, for example, estimates of prevalence among offenders range from 4% to 56%. However, the general average in prison-based studies is about 30%, although rates of serious deficit in literacy and numeracy generally reach up to about 60%. According to Ministry 199WH Dyslexia (Prisons)21 NOVEMBER 2012 Dyslexia (Prisons) 200WH

[Rebecca Harris] I speak as a dyslexic myself. That is why, when my constituent came into my surgery, everything she told of Justice figures published earlier this month, we currently me rang a bell and struck a chord. She came to the right have more than 86,000 prisoners, so we can estimate Member of Parliament, because I was extremely interested. that about 26,000 offenders in UK prisons suffer from I know exactly how embarrassing and frustrating it can some form of dyslexia, but we do not know for certain. be to work very hard in school on a piece of work—coming I was surprised and disappointed to learn that, up with all sorts of fantastic ideas and arguments—only historically, the Government have kept no data whatever for the teacher to hand it back with red marks all over it centrally on the numbers or percentage of the prison because of poor spelling or grammar. That is soul- population who have special educational needs, such as destroying, actually. I also know what it is like to be told dyslexia, or even on how many are illiterate. I was that I am stupid or lazy, or both. It does not take very surprised and disappointed because the two main aims long for someone in that situation to feel that they of our penal system are to punish effectively and to cannot trust their own judgment about themselves or rehabilitate offenders. “The Oxford Dictionary of about their peers and others around them. Law”—my learned colleague, my hon. Friend the Member Even worse, such people—perhaps to save face or for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti), will from confusion and frustration—find it easy to begin to know more about it than I do—defines rehabilitation act up to the very labels they are given. Young men in as: particular often become difficult and disruptive, and “Treatment aimed at improving an offender’s character or that can lead them down a nasty and dangerous path behaviour (including education, counselling, employment, training, from which it is hard to turn back. I was lucky enough etc.) that is undertaken with the goal of reintegrating the offender to be diagnosed with dyslexia before I sat my A-levels, into society.” but, in fact, a large number of people with dyslexia have All Members would agree that one of the most basic always slipped through the net of our education system. necessities effectively to integrate into our modern society For those who leave school hampered by their dyslexia is the basic ability to read and write. to the extent that they still cannot properly read and With that in mind, I find it hard to see how the write, the frustration and embarrassment they felt in the Government can allocate and target rehabilitation resources, classroom too often becomes a part of their daily life. or commission them effectively, if those data are not Many dyslexics, if not most, are very good at creating collected. Similarly, the Government cannot properly coping strategies and at adapting their day-to-day life to analyse any causal link between the lack of basic literacy avoid situations in which they are hampered by their and offender behaviour, or assess how far educational dyslexia. Certainly, the vast majority of them never failure or the failure to pick up dyslexia in schools leads become criminals; I have become a Member of to offender behaviour in later life. Parliament—I am well aware that many members of the Rehman Chishti: On literacy and dyslexia, does my public think that the two are very similar. It is also true hon. Friend agree that prisoners’ literacy skills are that a significant number of dyslexics try to avoid lower than average, which reflects their social background, altogether any situations in which they have to read or and that greater emphasis must therefore be placed on write. If that aversion to reading and writing is severe that? enough to make it daunting even to fill in a simple form, they are really lost. Basic literacy is essential for interacting Rebecca Harris: There should be a great deal more with the rest of society, while illiteracy can be a source scrutiny on all factors, because there are others. In of immense frustration and impoverishment and, of addition to literacy problems, there is a huge number of course, a factor in crime. social factors, as well as the fact that many members of I will talk about the detailed findings of Jackie’s the prison population have had head injuries or personality report in a moment, but one fascinating insight that she disorders. discovered was that a number of the dyslexic prisoners If we are to drill down, deal with our re-offending whom she interviewed were locked up for offences rates and our prison populations and, ultimately, achieve relating directly to their aversion to reading and writing, what we want by keeping our streets safer, all those and specifically to form filling. She found that 10% of factors need proper consideration. We always want to dyslexic offenders were serving sentences that were related hear that people have been locked up and put away, so to strings of driving offences involving driving without that they cannot be on the streets to offend, but they a proper licence or insurance. When Jackie asked them come out again and if we do not stem the tide, we will why they were not properly licensed, she found that not address the problem. The issue is not new. For many most either could not pass the theory test or simply had decades, various social commentators have explained not bothered trying because they knew that they would that there is a link between educational attainment and fail. If it is difficult to get through life without reading the propensity to commit crime. That only underlines and writing, it is also quite difficult to get through life my dismay that we are not doing more, and do not have without driving a car. a proper audit. As I have said, one key advantage of having payment Rehman Chishti: At the moment, education providers by results for rehabilitating offenders is that, through use a hidden disabilities questionnaire, which has been the introduction of market mechanisms, organisations— developed by Dyslexia Action, to test anyone who whether third sector or charitable ones—will put greater shows signs of having a learning difficulty and/or disability. emphasis on identifying the causes of educational failure Does my hon. Friend think that test is working? in our prisons and ensure that such factors are brought to bear on rehabilitation, whereas under previous Rebecca Harris: The evidence from the insightful Governments, we had one-size-fits-all solutions, particularly review written by my constituent, who is a dyslexic for education and training in prisons. herself, seems to show that it is not working. We are not 201WH Dyslexia (Prisons)21 NOVEMBER 2012 Dyslexia (Prisons) 202WH picking up people and, more to the point, we do not A testimonial from Prisoner J said: know how to reach them and treat them when we do “Jackie has shown me things that no one else has ever been able pick them up. to do before: reading, writing and sums. I have learnt more in 8 weeks than in all 41 years of my life.” The examples that I have given show not only how Jackie and the mentors helped prisoners to learn how to important it is to identify dyslexia in prison but why we read and fill in forms, to take and pass the driving should improve dyslexia screening provision throughout theory test and to take and pass the building site the education system, but that is a debate for another construction skills test, which meant that they could day and another Minister. I seriously believe that a legally work in construction. That helped to give a sense greater focus on dyslexia will lead to a fall in reoffending of optimism and direction to prisoners in preparation rates and that the report from the “Dyslexia Behind for their release. Bars” project provides enough evidence and insight for the Government to look at the matter more seriously. The project also transformed the prison as a whole—I am sure that the Minister would like to know that. The project took place in Chelmsford prison and, on Prison officers commented on how much calmer even first glance, its methodology seemed simple—first, to the most violent prisoners became as their self-esteem assess the level of illiteracy and special educational rose along with their progress, resulting in a calmer and needs related to dyslexia in the prison and secondly, to happier atmosphere across the whole prison. In the two set up a stage-by-stage, one-on-one mentoring scheme years, prisoner-on-prisoner and prisoner-on-staff assaults among the offenders using Jackie’s teaching tools and fell dramatically—the figures really are quite dramatic— methods to teach them outside the traditional classroom which prison officers have attributed to the “Dyslexia setting. Behind Bars” project, although, unfortunately, they rose Jackie began work with 20 prisoners with exceptionally after the project ended. low literacy levels. They were generally prisoners who All prisoners involved in the project improved their would never have engaged with the prison education literacy skills to a level advanced enough to extend their service because they saw it as the same pen-and-paper choices of work and leisure activities and prepare more classroom experience that they had previously hated effectively for their lives outside. Of the 17 prisoners in and been failed by, which is why the approach of Jackie, Jackie’s first two groups who were released four years a fellow dyslexic who was undiagnosed until her 40s, ago, only one has reoffended. That represents a 5.9% was so different. I can entirely identify with the relief proven reoffending rate within four years, compared simply of being diagnosed dyslexic, let alone being with the national rate of 55% within two years, or 68% diagnosed by a fellow dyslexic who has overcome the within five years. Clearly, that sample is too small to be condition. It is a huge opportunity for someone to statistically reliable. However, it is a useful indicator reappraise how they view themselves and to give them that shows that the reoffending rate of the project an incentive to try again. participants is less than a tenth of the national average. The prisoners who had been taught to read and write An example of that reduction in recidivism is the case by Jackie offered to share their experiences with other of three serial offenders who had each been in and out prisoners. Literate prisoners also came forward, wanting of prison more than 40 times—none of them has reoffended to learn how to teach and mentor greater numbers of since their release four years ago. inmates. Jackie trained 40 of them to support fellow Of the first 17 prisoners to be released, four are prisoners through the project. In that way, her unique, employed in trades, two in building, one a fork-lift multi-sensory and original teaching and mentoring driver and one a film producer; two are employed by programme spread to all wings of the prison. More charities, one teaching disabled people the skills to get than 200 prisoners were individually taught and supported into work and one mentoring young offenders; two are over the first part of the project by Jackie and her voluntary workers, one mentoring adults with learning trained mentors, but that figure quickly grew as the difficulties and one supporting men on probation; two project developed and spread. A further 70 prisoners have started their own businesses; five are currently were successfully helped by mentors who transferred to unemployed; one is at a top university doing an engineering Wayland prison to extend the reach of the project to degree; and just one went back into prison. another part of the prison estate. Moreover, of the first 40 offenders to become mentors, 10 were also trained in PTLLS—preparing to teach in Fifty male prisoners went through learning workshops the lifelong learning sector—qualifications. All 10 finished with Jackie. Their literacy levels were at the lowest the course and passed with those qualifications. Chelmsford pre-school level, and they needed to develop early learning prison has now received many personal requests to and life skills. They discovered that they had a range of transfer, as prisoners and their families hear on the strengths which they could build on to develop their grapevine of the success of the project. learning and to gain self-esteem. They were all helped I should like to extend my thanks to the Minister. I to create their own highly individual learning plans to wrote to him on this matter earlier this month and understand how to manage their own life, attitudes and received an extremely helpful letter and an offer to meet behaviours. me and Jackie, for which I am grateful. Moreover, I also Overall, 53% of the 2,029 offenders interviewed at welcome the announcement yesterday by the Secretary Chelmsford during the project were diagnosed with of State for Justice that he will be reviewing the educational dyslexia, which is a huge statistic. When they came out approach taken in the youth custody estate, where we of prison, the great majority of them were either working are currently detaining about 1,800 young people, with or in education. Within weeks, several prisoners with a 70% likelihood of reoffending. It seems highly likely the literacy skills of an average four-year-old had learned that among that cohort, there will also be a large enough to write their first letters home and to read the proportion with undetected learning needs. There is an letters that they received back. opportunity to use an innovative method of reaching 203WH Dyslexia (Prisons)21 NOVEMBER 2012 Dyslexia (Prisons) 204WH

[Rebecca Harris] will have picked up from the speech yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Justice, that and teaching them before they are released back into is also an area on which we wish to focus. society. I am quite certain that that will dramatically It may be helpful if I set out some of the work that is reduce their reoffending figures. already being done, at which we are having another Historically, education in prison has not been held in look to ensure that it is being done in the best possible high regard by the public as an effective tool to rehabilitate way. Since taking up this post, I have been very keen to offenders—a fact that was mentioned in an Education ensure that the importance of learning and skills within and Skills Committee report in 2005. Sadly, I do not the prison estate and beyond is high on the agenda. believe that that perception has changed in the minds of Indeed, my hon. Friend will have noted that the Prime the public today.The public does not have much confidence Minister also mentioned learning and skills in his recent or belief in the educational work of the prisons and speech on offenders. their ability to rehabilitate. The first role of our prison In particular, of course, the low levels of literacy and system should always be to punish offenders and so act numeracy among prisoners as a group should concern as an effective deterrent to reoffending. My aim is not us all, not only because of the impact on those individuals to raise the plight of dyslexics or in any way to excuse and their ability to function in a world where reading any form of offending behaviour but to highlight a way and writing are essential skills, but because a lack of in which we can drastically reduce reoffending rates and sufficient literacy and numeracy skills excludes people ultimately keep our streets safer for the British public. from the vast majority of employment opportunities. I am sure, as are many others, that having a job can make 4.18 pm a significant impact on reducing reoffending, and that skills such as organisation, communication, teamwork, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice writing, speaking and listening are necessary to perform (Jeremy Wright): I congratulate my hon. Friend the effectively in most, if not all, work roles. Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris) on securing Prisoners with dyslexia are, of course, disadvantaged this debate on a very important subject. I am grateful to in that respect, not only because dyslexia presents them her, too, for introducing me to the work of her constituent, with particular issues in terms of competence in reading Jackie Hewitt-Main. I look forward to meeting her and and writing, but because dyslexia is recognised as impairing my hon. Friend on 5 December to discuss this matter organisational skills. My hon. Friend obviously has a further. clear personal perspective on dyslexia and its effects, It is clear that Ms Hewitt-Main’s project, “Dyslexia which has been extremely valuable in the debate. Behind Bars” contains some interesting approaches to a Of course, engaging with prisoners on learning and substantial problem. Using a multi-sensory and mentoring skills can be difficult, as my hon. Friend recognised. approach, she has offered a great deal to the inmates of Some prisoners may have had negative experiences in Chelmsford prison, and there is a great deal there that their education and even been excluded, and consequently we will wish to explore. As far as I know, this work has they see little value in education. Statistics that I have not yet been assessed or reviewed by an independent seen recently suggest that nearly half of prisoners identified organisation and although its initial results are promising, themselves as having left education with no qualifications further work will be necessary to ensure that they are as at all. Dyslexia magnifies that problem. It can be very good as they appear to be. It seems sensible to explore difficult to recognise and is often masked. Not all with my hon. Friend the ways in which we can change schools will have had the specialist provision to support things to improve what is on offer. children and young people who have this difficulty. It is also worth saying that the National Offender Since reading and writing are “gateway” skills that Management Service is considering a review of the enable children and young people to engage confidently evidence on effective working with offenders with learning with their wider educational experience, as well as difficulties and disabilities, and I will come back to what in many basic social relationships, poor educational is already being done in a moment. experiences can create reluctant learners. The experience The particular areas of Ms Hewitt-Main’s work that of being excluded from positive experiences of learning my hon. Friend highlighted, and that are particularly to read, write and communicate more widely remains interesting in the context of what my hon. Friend said with many prisoners into adulthood. That presents an we are doing more generally in the Justice Department, additional challenge in custody, where engaging with include peer mentoring. I have seen very good examples reluctant learners can be particularly difficult if memories of peer mentoring in the prison system, with older, of the classroom act as a barrier to taking the opportunities more established prisoners assisting younger and newer that education can provide. prisoners in a variety of ways. The work that my hon. Dyslexia is only one condition in a range of learning Friend described is only one of those ways. difficulties and disabilities that prisoners may present As my hon. Friend also said, teaching and learning in with, and that require specialist and systematic approaches. a non-classroom environment are important. We must We need to provide as much support as we can to recognise that the classroom environment did not work prisoners with LDDs, to improve their chances in the for a great many of the prisoners we are talking about at workplace as well as their confidence, self-esteem and school, and it probably will not work for them in social skills. Without dedicated input, the impact of custody either, so we have to find new and imaginative much learning support in reading and writing may be approaches that, as she said, involve the whole prison. reduced or lost. It is also worth noting that, as I understand it, The NOMS learning disabilities and difficulties working Ms Hewitt-Main’s programme involved some mentoring group exists to oversee the national implementation of of people after they leave prison. As my hon. Friend an LDD screening process for prisoners, and to develop 205WH Dyslexia (Prisons)21 NOVEMBER 2012 Dyslexia (Prisons) 206WH a broader LDD strategy across prisons. Apart from order to bring them up to a basic functional level, various officials from NOMS, membership of the group individual learning aims for literacy and numeracy had includes officials from the Department of Health, the to be set for them. Overall, 65% of prisoners enrolled on Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, and literacy and numeracy programmes were successful in the Prison Reform Trust. I welcome, as I am sure my achieving the literacy and numeracy functional skills hon. Friend does, the contribution made by the group, goals that had been set as part of their individual as these issues can be resolved only by partners across learning plans. For some, it meant learning to read and Government and the voluntary sector working together. write, while for others it meant improving their basic The group is involved in the development of NOMS literacy and numeracy so that they could operate with guidance for better outcomes for offenders with LDDs. more confidence and competence. It is also developing guidance on reasonable adjustments The revised Offender Learning and Skills Service, for prisoners with LDDs, to ensure that they are integrated which is OLASS 4, was implemented as a result of the into the prison community and that they have the best “Making prisons work”strategy, and it will make additional opportunity to participate in activities that support provision against assessed need. OLASS 4 requires their rehabilitation. Further commitments for the current education providers to identify the support needs of year include improving staff awareness, as well as prisoner offenders with LDDs or special educational needs through and peer training. a learning difficulty assessment, or LDA. Requirements Returning to a point that my hon. Friend made about identified through the assessment should be addressed the crucial importance of our knowing how many people through personalised, customised programmes delivered in prison have dyslexia and other learning disabilities, a by specialist qualified staff. My hon. Friend will recognise learning disability screening questionnaire has been piloted the importance of that approach, because not all offenders on three sites, and NOMS is considering whether it have identical needs. OLASS 4 providers understand, should be used across the prison estate. The Youth and are able to deliver, the specific and systematic Justice Board is using a similar tool—the comprehensive approaches to learning that are required by prisoners health assessment tool—with young offenders. That with such difficulties. will go some way towards addressing the point that she raised and on which my hon. Friend the Member for Crucially, however, through OLASS 4 and the work Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti) focused: that we are doing more widely with other Departments, identifying the number of people we are dealing with. we are more strongly linking skills to employment, and I believe that there is still more work to do in that My hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham and regard. Arrangements are also in place to allow OLASS 4 Rainham also mentioned the Skills Funding Agency providers to draw together funding to support prisoners and its hidden disabilities screening tool, which of course with LDDs, through a specific adult learning support identifies issues wider than LDDs. It has been used by allocation that is designed to match the support that all the SFA’s custodial Offender Learning and Skills mainstream learners in colleges or training organisations Service providers since August 2009. Our aim is that receive. A budget for additional learning support of this tool will eventually be adopted and used by all £7.1 million is available to the OLASS 4 providers, to OLASS providers, both in custody and in the community, enable the introduction of specific assessment processes and ultimately by all mainstream providers. to identify offenders with LDD needs and to provide We are also making radical changes to the way that those offenders with the expert teaching and support learning and skills are delivered in prisons, which will that they require. encompass the support that we want to be made available to all prisoners with LDDs. As part of that radical In addition, my hon. Friend may be aware of the programme of change, we have published a document work of the Shannon Trust’s “Toe by Toe” reading that my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point may scheme, which is also available in prisons. Again, this have seen—if she has not seen it, I commend it to scheme uses peer mentors, supported by volunteers, her—called “Making prisons work: skills for rehabilitation”. teaching staff and prison officers, and it is based on best That is the new offender learning strategy, which was practice developed through teachers’experiences of enabling published jointly with BIS. The strategy recognised that children with dyslexia to read. That is enormously improving prisoners’ literacy skills was central to beneficial to many offenders. rehabilitation, as we have discussed today, and we are In conclusion, I welcome today’s debate, and I thank taking steps to ensure the implementation of the report’s my hon. Friend for raising this issue. I assure her that, recommendations. although we believe that much good work is being done To give an idea of the scale of the problem that already, there is still a great deal more to do, and we are literacy and numeracy difficulties present in prisons, in certainly open to new and good ideas, including those the academic year 2010-11 almost 30% of prisoners had that I look forward to discussing with her and her such low levels of reading and writing skills that, in constituent. 207WH 21 NOVEMBER 2012 Mobile Technology (Health Care) 208WH

Mobile Technology (Health Care) are switched on, through secure wi-fi, 3G and the emerging 4G technology. Such devices can connect instantly with extremely powerful networks. That means 4.30 pm that working practices established 10 or more years ago Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): It is a great can be radically transformed. Through harnessing the pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the second power and capabilities of mobile communications time today, Mr Havard. I welcome the Minister to his technology, the health service can better support its place. We were occupants of neighbouring offices in health care professionals. Technology can reduce the this House, but I tend not to see him quite so much now, time spent on administration and give professionals with his promotion to the Government ranks. much more needed time to care. In every aspect of our lives, technology is driving Specifically, modern mobile communications technology innovation, improvement and increased efficiency. Health can help patients and the public make healthier decisions, care is no different, where the use of mobile communications enabling individuals to manage their conditions more technology is becoming increasingly important. We are effectively and therefore to live independently. It can reaching a point where mobile technology can take an also help health care professionals collect information increasingly strategic role in meeting today’s health care more effectively, which leads to improved efficiency, demands. That is because a number of critical factors patient safety and care quality. I will draw on a few are converging, including several extremely demanding examples that relate to those areas. Mobile technology health care challenges that, taken together, require new can help patients take more control of their health by approaches and solutions; the remarkable computing encouraging healthier lifestyle choices; by giving patients power now available on portable devices such as tablets more control and information to manage their conditions and smart phones; and the development of specific effectively; and by supporting more comprehensive remote mobile technology-based health-care focused solutions monitoring. that can improve quality, efficiency and a patient’s experience of their care. I shall cover each of those in I think the Minister is aware that there is already turn. extensive clinical evidence that shows that patients who Our health service faces unprecedented challenges take an active role in their care do better. For example, a that go way beyond the £20 billion cuts to national study in Toronto showed that diabetic patients who health service spending, and most health care systems monitored their blood pressure using smart phones across the world face similar situations. We are, as a experienced a 25% drop in cardiovascular mortality. population, living longer. That is undoubtedly a good The Government have committed to giving patients the thing, but it brings with it demands. Older people with right to book general practitioner appointments, order multiple and complex health care needs constitute the repeat prescriptions and talk to GP practices online. majority of interactions with the NHS, and their care That represents just the tip of the iceberg. The effect on consumes the majority of health care expenditure, to the population’s health would be much stronger if patients the extent that health care costs are growing faster than were encouraged to monitor their care with support gross domestic product. New drugs, diagnostics and from their health care professionals. treatments mean that we can treat conditions that years Much closer to home, Leicestershire’s nutrition and ago were simply considered beyond the reach of modern dietetic services and the university of Chester in the UK medicine. They are welcome developments, but they have pioneered a secure smart phone solution to enhance inevitably involve significant financial cost. the approach to adult weight management services. A less welcome reason for increasing health costs Achieving sustainable weight loss is hard, yet their relates to the increase in long-term and chronic diseases. service, known as LEAP—lifestyle, eating and activity Over recent years, we have seen the rise in the prevalence programmes—weight management groups, based on of obesity, type 2 diabetes and other conditions that national guidance, has achieved just that. They have have a significant lifestyle-related component. They found that the key to long-term weight loss is to provide contribute directly to health care requirements and lead follow-up support. After finishing the initial programme, to secondary complications. For example, the single patients take part in a three-month follow-up programme, most significant risk factor to the development of dementia focusing on self-monitoring with encouragement from is cardiovascular health. The NHS needs to address all staff via text messages. I understand that they are not those challenges while delivering an unprecedented 4% alone in doing that kind of thing; the all-party group of year-on-year compound efficiency savings. The Minister, which I was formerly chair, Slimming World, does as a former member of the Select Committee on Health, something similar. To ensure patient confidentiality and on which I still sit, will be aware that the Committee has data security, a BlackBerry smart phone is used with an correctly pointed out that such a level of savings has not application that converts text messages to e-mail and been achieved by any other health care system. vice versa. That creates an accurate record of patient- I think we can accept that the face of health care practitioner dialogue. The results include statistically and the challenges it faces are changing. How can significant weight loss compared with a control group mobile communications technology help deal with the and an improved quality of life. challenges? It is worth reflecting that the power of today’s mobile communications technology—they are Those two simple examples show that by supporting long words, but we would just call them tablet computers individuals to use smart phones and tablets already at and smart phones—is comparable to some of the faster their disposal, people can take more control of their supercomputers of just a decade or so ago. I was lives and make healthier decisions. There is scope for interested in what is termed “always on” connectivity, the NHS to become more proactive in encouraging which means that one can always be reached if devices such approaches without incurring significant cost. 209WH Mobile Technology (Health Care)21 NOVEMBER 2012 Mobile Technology (Health Care) 210WH

Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): I congratulate trust, which means designing privacy into the entire my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. She system, with security measures built into mobile devices. is making a point about the importance of technology We also need reliable connectivity, which is fundamental in preventing health care problems. As she will know, for effective mobile working. Even in areas with the the preventive public health role is being transferred to most advanced mobile infrastructures, bandwidth can local government. Does she agree that it is vital for the sometimes be limited, so it is essential to choose hardware technology to have the funding needed when the preventive that can switch seamlessly between different mobile role is transferred, and that it is not left to local government, protocols and wi-fi connections. Such functionality would given the scale of the cuts that local government has minimise bandwidth-related costs. We need to focus on suffered? approaches that complement patient-clinician interactions and that make the most of existing technology. Mobile Rosie Cooper: A serious point is being made here: solutions that can be rapidly deployed and that integrate public health is being transferred to local government, with existing infrastructure would ensure investments and the funds that go with it need to be spent on public that have already been made can be enhanced rather health and preventive means. I am worried that councils than discarded. might use some of the money to do work to which they As the former chair of Liverpool Women’s hospital, I are already committed. So, yes, they do need support, know there are now solutions to some of the problems and we need to ensure that the money they get is spent in enabling midwives to spend the maximum amount of correctly and wisely. Mobile technology can help to time out on the front line. Such improvements are a improve public health. godsend and enable our professionals to deal with One of the perennial challenges of modern health patients efficiently and effectively. I am aware of the care is to keep accurate, comprehensive records without Government’s plan to introduce a fund for technology detracting from the care-giving process, which is quite to improve midwifery and nursing care, and I very much difficult. Too often the supposed solutions feel burdensome. welcome that. As the plans for the fund are developed, As a result, clinicians can sometimes be difficult to it is essential to learn from those trusts that have already engage—in fact, there is a view that sometimes clinicians pioneered new approaches. I ask the Minister, therefore, rarely engage—and the accuracy and completeness of to meet me and some of the professionals who have records suffers as a result. been involved in developing the examples I have cited so that he can hear about their experiences. That might We can show that there are tried and tested help future implementation. The truth is that mobile solutions developed by and in partnership with NHS communication technology will be a core strand in the organisations that have been shown to work. For example, 21st-century health service. We very much need it, and digital pen-and-paper technology, supported by mobile working together we can deliver for all the people who connectivity, can be used to complete patient records. In depend on the health service to deliver their care. turn, that can improve patient safety, care quality and efficiency. That technology is pioneered by Portsmouth 4.45 pm Hospitals NHS Trust and allows mums-to-be to keep The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health their paper records as normal, and because the records (Dr Daniel Poulter): It is a pleasure to serve under your are made using a mobile-enabled digital pen and paper, chairmanship, Mr Havard. the maternity department instantly receives an easily accessible electronic copy of the expectant mum’s paper It is also a pleasure to respond to this debate, and I records. That happens while the midwife is still with the congratulate the hon. Member for West Lancashire expectant mum in her home. As well as improving (Rosie Cooper) on securing it and on highlighting an safety when mums arrive at the hospital without their important focus of future health care policy. She is right notes, the technology’s deployment has brought about to highlight the Nicholson challenge: for the NHS just real efficiency by halving the time that midwives spend to stand still and to continue performing at the same on administration. level so that patients continue to receive the high-quality care that we all believe and know they deserve, it needs As well as solutions that can help health care professionals to make £20 billion-worth of efficiency savings and to in the community, we need to recognise that most acute put that money back into front-line patient care. A key hospitals are large complex buildings that, all too sadly, part of the debate is that better IT will improve the way often span several sites. There is strong evidence that we communicate with patients and keep people well and the accuracy of patient records and the quality of better supported in their own home and community, on clinical decision making may be improved if clinicians the basis that preventive health care is much better than record information themselves and have access to it curative health care, both for the patient and, financially, when they are with their patients, rather than leaving for the NHS. Of course, I would be delighted to meet the process to administrators who are removed from the the hon. Lady and people involved in the IT industry at care. Realistically, that can be achieved only by making a later date to discuss things further. it easier for clinicians to record and access information Although we know that simple things such as in-ear wherever they are. thermometers, improved hoists in hospitals and better- I am told that organisations such as University Hospitals quality equipment in operating theatres has improved Birmingham NHS Foundation Trust are making real the quality of patient care over many years and driven progress in mobilising information so that clinicians down the cost of providing health care, the hon. Lady is have real-time, secure access to patient records. The right to highlight the fact that we need to harness and foundation trust is using tablet devices and smartphones better utilise more modern types of technology such as to achieve such improvements. As the NHS looks to telehealth and mobile technology to support people implement new solutions, we need to encourage people better in their own homes and to drive down the cost to focus on secure approaches that patients and clinicians of care. 211WH Mobile Technology (Health Care)21 NOVEMBER 2012 Mobile Technology (Health Care) 212WH

[Dr Daniel Poulter] Such conversations can reassure callers that they are okay and not that unwell, and that perhaps they should Last week, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of see how things go overnight or later in the day and call State for Health outlined the NHS mandate, in which back if they need further help. They also help the he set out the vision for the NHS and addressed some of patient access health care in the most appropriate way, the key challenges that we face. In her speech, the hon. as the GP triages the patient remotely. Member for West Lancashire rightly highlighted that Texting and e-mailing people to remind them of we have an ageing population with many people living a appointments has already been shown throughout the lot longer with long-term medical conditions such as NHS to reduce the number of people who fail to turn diabetes, cancer, heart disease and dementia. The challenge up to their medical appointments. One big challenge in for the NHS is ensuring that we deliver care in a better health care is getting patients to attend and comply with way that meets people’s care needs while ensuring that, treatment, particularly those with longer-term conditions where we can, at the same time as producing high-quality who must make multiple trips to a hospital or care care, we reduce costs so that there is more money to go setting. E-mails and texts are an effective way to remind around to look after more people. people about their appointments and help educate them, My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State announced removing the burden from the acute setting by ensuring in the publication of the mandate that a real priority for that they understand how better to manage their conditions. the NHS is to improve the management of long-term Those are simple changes, using the technologies that conditions by helping people to better understand their people use every day and are already familiar with, that conditions and to take control by supporting them to can free hundreds of millions of pounds and provide self-care, thereby realising the massive potential benefits more convenient access to NHS services, particularly offered by information technology both in supporting for patients who live in more remote and rural parts of people to better understand and look after their conditions the country. in the community, and in their own homes, and in Technology can also improve the working lives of supporting, better educating and better looking after professionals. The funds that we are making available to the people who look after patients—the carers. That is nursing staff will enable them to access information an important part of providing high-quality health faster so that they can spend more face-to-face time care. with patients, an important point that the hon. Lady We already know that there are 15 million people made in her speech. Doctors, nurses and all health care with long-term conditions, accounting for some 70% of professionals want to spend time looking after their all in-patient beds. We also know that many such hospital patients. They do not want to be bogged down in stays could be avoided through better management, paperwork. Technology, whether used on the ward or to including the better use of mobile technologies to prevent access and look after patients remotely via telehealth or people from becoming so unwell in the first place that mobile technology, is a good way to ensure that front-line they need to be admitted to hospital. That would also health care professionals have more time to do what help to prevent the revolving door of hospital admissions they want to do and what they are trained to do: care that sometimes happens when people do not necessarily for and look after the sick and patients. have the support that they need and deserve when they I have seen at first hand the potential of telehealth are discharged from hospital, perhaps after a hip operation and telemedicine to transform and save people’s lives. or similar stay. Earlier this month, I visited the telehealth hub at Airedale Improving access and the quality of health care available NHS Foundation Trust, which I know is on the other to all patients is a key aim for the NHS, not just in side of the Pennines from the hon. Lady’s constituency, meeting the Nicholson challenge but in improving day- but I am sure she will not mind my using it as an to-day quality of care. Increasingly, technology will example. The hub is staffed 24 hours a day, seven days a play a part in that: not just breakthroughs in simple week, by skilled nurses specialising in acute care. A day-to-day medical devices but changes in how we consultant is also on hand if needed. reach people in remote rural settings and in their homes The aim of the service is to care for patients closer to and communities through the use of telemedicine, telehealth home and keep them there whenever it is safe to do so. and mobile devices. We can and should take advantage In other words, it ensures that people are properly of the deeply interconnected nature of modern society supported and well advised in their own homes and to improve people’s experience of health care and other care settings, such as residential homes, so they do significantly increase our efficiency in delivering it. not become as unwell as they might otherwise. They are There are infinite ways in which technology can transform given appropriate health care advice, guidance and support how people access health and social care services. “Digital in their homes and care settings, which helps reduce the First”, a report published in July by the Department burden on acute services in the area. It is particularly of Health, estimates that the NHS could save up to important in more rural areas, where the distances that £2.9 billion by implementing just 10 simple actions professionals must travel to look after patients are so to transform how people access health care. Those great that the only effective way to get around to as savings could be made almost immediately and with many patients as possible, in both financial and human minimal investment by making use of existing technologies care terms, is to use the benefits that telehealth brings to to reduce inappropriate face-to-face contacts. Airedale and the surrounding areas. There are many examples of simple things that can be Evidence suggests that many patients are admitted done, such as having a doctor or nurse talk to a patient into hospital when, as we have discussed, that is not on the phone when they call to book an appointment or always the best environment or the most appropriate as an initial assessment. About one third of patients do place for them. Using telemedicine allows patients to not necessarily need a face-to-face GP appointment. manage their conditions with the hospital’s support. 213WH Mobile Technology (Health Care)21 NOVEMBER 2012 Mobile Technology (Health Care) 214WH

It can prevent time-consuming, costly trips to hospital in 2013, a sixteenfold increase in the number of people for outpatient appointments. The patient’s GP is instantly being helped by telehealth and telecare. It will make informed and kept up-to-date about any consultations Britain the largest market in the world behind the USA, that occur via the telehealth care hub. which is something that we can all be proud of. Importantly, the Government do not want such initiatives The recently published results from the whole system to take place in isolation. We believe, as I know the hon. demonstrator programme are potentially game-changing. Lady does, that we must ensure that they become day-to-day We now have robust academic and scientific evidence occurrences in the NHS as the years go on. Technology that such technology can drive improvements not only and the better use of information provide immense in quality and value in the NHS but in patient satisfaction opportunities for improving the quality and accessibility levels and outcomes. We all know that the most important of NHS care, not just in remote rural settings but in people in all these discussions are the patients whom the every care setting that we can think of. clinician looks after and the telehealth provider wants The Government’s information strategy for health to look after. Importantly, when we are designing telehealth and social care, “The Power of Information”, is another services, like all other NHS services, we need feedback example that highlights the importance of harnessing from patients in order to ensure that where services are innovative new technology and delivering better health working well, they can be rolled out elsewhere in the for patients. The strategy, of which I know the hon. NHS, and that where improvements could be made and Lady will be aware, was published in May, setting out things are not going so well for patients, the NHS can ambitions for people to be offered online and mobile learn from that and adapt technology to improve care in access to records, electronic communication with future. professional teams, online health and care transactions At the Age UK conference last week, my right hon. and the ability to rate services and provide feedback Friend the Secretary of State announced some significant about how effective and convenient they were for the steps on the road to supporting the 3 million people patient. who stand to benefit from telehealth and telecare by A small number of actions will need to be led nationally, 2017. As the hon. Lady said, the key is improving care such as setting common standards to allow information for older people. They are the biggest users of NHS to flow effectively around the system. More detailed services, so they will see the most immediate changes implementation planning will be led by organisations and feel the most immediate benefits from telehealth. including the NHS Commissioning Board to ensure We have a growing elderly population and growing that current good localised initiatives in different parts numbers of people with multiple long-term conditions. of the country are rolled out nationally. We learn from In order to meet the challenge of looking after them areas such as Airedale, where looking after people in properly and providing dignity in elderly care, we must their own homes through the better use of technology is ensure that we keep them well at home and in their going well. Those examples should be rolled out to communities. One significant part of the answer is become the norm in the NHS. I know that the NHS doing more for telehealth. The Government are well on Commissioning Board will be central to driving that the road to doing so. I welcome further discussions with through, which is why improving information technology the hon. Lady about what more we can do to look after was at the heart of the NHS mandate launched last people, particularly the frail elderly, in their own homes. week. Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair): Thank you, Minister. I Mainstreaming assistive technology across the NHS am sure that you will have interesting discussions with is particularly important. As we have discussed, it is not your colleagues in the devolved Administrations about good enough to have high-quality localised initiatives; interconnectivity as well. we need a systematic, NHS-wide approach that embraces technology. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State Question put and agreed to. for Health announced at the Age UK conference last week that plans have been agreed that will ensure a 4.59 pm further 100,000 people will be supported by telehealth Sitting adjourned.

31WS Written Ministerial Statements21 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 32WS Written Ministerial COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Statements Local Government Finance Wednesday 21 November 2012 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Brandon Lewis): I TREASURY am today publishing a policy statement that provides early confirmation of the Government’s policy decisions in a number of key areas following this summer’s technical ECOFIN consultation on the new business rate retention scheme. This policy statement will support local authorities, ahead of the provisional local government finance The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): settlement, in their preparations for smooth implementation The Economic and Financial Affairs Council was held of the business rates retention scheme from April 2013. in Brussels on 13 November 2012. Ministers discussed the following items: The business rates retention scheme will enable local authorities to retain a large proportion of locally collected Economic governance—“Two pack” business rates to help fund the services they provide, The presidency updated Ministers on the current thereby creating a direct link between business rates state of play of trialogue negotiations with the European collected and local authority income, and reducing Parliament. local authorities’ dependency on central Government Revised Capital Requirements Directive (CRD IV) grants. The scheme will give all councils a strong incentive The presidency updated Ministers on the progress of to go for growth and could add approximately £10 billion negotiations in trialogues since the Council’s 9 October to the wider economy by 2020. meeting. After brief discussion the presidency indicated The policy statement confirms Government’s intention acceptance of the Council’s desire to maintain the general to proceed with the implementation of a range of approach agreed in May. proposals that were set out in the technical consultation. Banking Supervision Mechanism It also sets out a number of changes to those proposals, At the invitation of the presidency, the Commission in response to comments received to the consultation, updated Ministers on the current state of play. I made it including the Government’s intention to maintain the clear that the UK would not be taking part. 1:1 proportionate levy but with a limit of 50p in the pound. This will translate into very real benefits for Financial Transaction Tax (FTT) authorities, allowing at least 25p in each extra pound of The Commission presented its proposal for an business rates generated locally to be retained locally. In authorising decision on a proposal for the introduction addition, the policy statement sets out the Government’s of a FTT by some member states using the enhanced intention to fix the safety net at 7.5%—the most generous co-operation procedure. level within the range consulted upon. This guarantee Mandate for Negotiations of Amendments to the Savings will be maintained in real terms, since baseline funding Taxation Agreements with Third Countries levels will be uprated by the RPI for the purpose of Ministers discussed the mandate for negotiations. No calculating eligibility for the safety net. agreement was reached. The presidency indicated that it Overall, Government consider that these policy decisions would report to the European Council. will result in a system that provides a strong growth Follow up to the European Council on 18-19 October incentive for authorities, while being underpinned by 2012 robust protections to help councils maintain effective services. The presidency provided a brief summary of the discussion on deepening economic and monetary union I have placed a copy of the policy statement in the at the European Council’s meeting on 18 and 19 October. Library of the House. The policy statement and a Follow-up to the Annual Meeting of the IMF and World revised plain English guide to business rate retention Bank Group in Tokyo and the G20 Finance Ministers and are also available on the gov.uk website at: Governors Meeting https://www.gov.uk/government/policies/giving-local- Council briefly discussed the outcomes of these meetings. authorities-more-control-over-how-they-spend-public- money-in-their-area--2 Preparation of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC) Data consultation Council adopted Conclusions endorsing the Fast Start I am also today publishing the data consultation on Finance Report to be presented at the Convention. the 2013-14 local government finance settlement. The consultation sets out the majority of data that may be EU State Aid Modernisation used in calculating the provisional baseline funding Ministers noted the plans for reform set out by the levels and revenue support grant allocations from 2013-14. Commission. This release will enable local authorities to begin checking Ministerial Dialogue with European Free Trade Association the indicator data. (EFTA) Countries The consultation can be found on the gov.uk website Ministers met their counterparts from EFTA countries: at: http://www.local.communities.gov.uk/finance/1314/ Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland. settle.htm. 33WS Written Ministerial Statements21 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 34WS

Local Council Tax Support The UK will contribute £7 million for Haiti and In preparation for the introduction of local council £850,000 for Cuba, to provide immediate life-saving tax support schemes in April 2013, the Government support. Our priorities are to meet food, emergency consulted on aspects of the funding arrangements to shelter, water and sanitation needs. I have sent an assessment support authorities to offer council tax support. team from the Department to the region. The team will ensure that a rigorous approach is taken to assessing the Next week I will publish an update on these most pressing humanitarian priorities so that UK funding arrangements, including on the Government’s approach is used to achieve the greatest impact on the ground. to addressing budget pressures to ensure all authorities have a fair starting point. Final funding allocations will The Department for International Development will be included in the provisional local government finance continue to monitor the situation, consulting with other settlement. Government Departments, including the Foreign and Commonwealth Office in our response to this humanitarian I will also be publishing the council tax base regulations emergency. and the Government response to the consultation on providing certainty for the funding of local precepting authorities. TRANSPORT Also the final versions of two key council tax support regulations (first published in July) have been made and are soon to be published and laid before Parliament—the Parliamentary Written Question (Correction) prescribed requirements scheme and the default scheme. Links to the regulations will be available on the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport gov.uk website at: (Stephen Hammond): I regret to inform the House that https://www.gov.uk/government/policies/giving-local- there was an inaccuracy in the answer given by the then authorities-more-control-over-how-they-spend-public- Parliamentary-Under Secretary of State to parliamentary money-in-their-area--2 question 97198 on 1 March 2012, Official Report, column 450W, about Driving: Licensing. The answer says: INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT VOSA identifies poor performing MOT testing stations through a transparent and proportionate disciplinary Hurricane Sandy (Haiti and Cuba) points system published in the MOT Testing Guide. VOSA cessate individual testers called Authorised Examiners (AEs) from carrying out MOT tests, not The Secretary of State for International Development the test stations. AEs cessated in the last three years are (Justine Greening): I wish to inform the House that, in 111 in 2008-09, 90 in 2009-10, and 89 in 2010-11 all response to the devastation caused by Hurricane Sandy after appeal. in the Caribbean, the Department for International The answer should be: Development is today deploying vital humanitarian VOSA identifies poor performing MOT testing stations support to help save lives and reduce suffering. through a transparent and proportionate disciplinary This emergency relief will be provided to Haiti and points system published in the MOT Testing Guide. Cuba, the countries outside the USA that were most VOSA can take action against Authorised Examiners (AEs) devastated by the hurricane, following an urgent appeal and Nominated Testers (NTs). AEs are an individual, by the United Nations on 12 November. The hurricane partnership or company approved to carry out MOT hit Haiti on 23 October and Cuba on 25 October. It tests. NTs carry out the actual tests. In the last three caused widespread destruction, destroying crops, homes years, the agency struck off 111 AEs in 2008-09, 90 in and public infrastructure. 2009-10, and 89 in 2010-11, all after appeal. 7P Petitions21 NOVEMBER 2012 Petitions 8P

inadequate mitigation; further that the Petitioners believe Petitions speed limits are the cheapest and most effective way to protect local residents, school children, businesses and Wednesday 21 November 2012 the environment; and that the Petitioners believe that lowering the proposed speed limit of passenger trains from 75mph to 40mph would reduce noise and its PRESENTED PETITION adverse health effects, reduce vibration, reduce emissions, Petition presented to the House but not read on the Floor reduce running costs, reduce the risk of derailments, reduce the risk of injury to bats and reduce the inherent Innox Riverside development, Trowbridge fear and disturbance of those living so close by. The Petition of residents of Trowbridge and the surrounding The Petitioners therefore request that the House of area of Wiltshire, Commons urges the Department for Transport to review Declares that the Petitioners support the proposed the speed limit on passenger trains and preserve the “Innox Riverside” development of the “Old Bowyers” speed limit on freight trains for the Oxford–Bicester line site in Trowbridge; further that the Petitioners believe between Oxford station and Water Eton Parkway. that the development is needed to bring people back to Trowbridge and that the “Innox Riverside” development And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Nicola has received a massive amount of local support; further Blackwood, Official Report, 16 October 2012; Vol. 551, that the Petitioners believe that the “Innox Riverside” c. 5P.] development promises to be an exciting family orientated [P001125] leisure and residential destination with place to work, eat and relax and that it will also introduce a new civic Observations from the Secretary of State for Transport: square and landscaped green to Trowbridge. The Secretary of State has considered the reports of The Petitioners therefore request that the House of the Inspector who conducted a public inquiry into the Commons urges the Government to encourage Wiltshire improvements to the Oxford-Bicester line proposed by council to reverse their decision to refuse planning Chiltern Railways as part of the Evergreen 3 Project. permission for the “Innox Riverside” development in The Inspector examined the measures to mitigate the Trowbridge. operational effects of the Project on local residents and And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by the environment at both the original sessions of the Dr Andrew Murrison.] inquiry held between November 2010 and January 2011, and at the reopened inquiry held between May and June [P001137] 2012. The Secretary of State agrees with the Inspector that OBSERVATIONS it is unnecessary to impose speed limits on trains in order to mitigate the effects of the scheme. He is satisfied TRANSPORT that adequate mitigation in respect of the noise, vibration and other environmental impacts of the scheme will be Speed limits on passenger trains secured through the measures referred to in the Department for Transport’s letter dated 17 October 2012, in particular The Petition of residents of Oxford, the planning conditions relating to operational noise Declares that the Petitioners strongly believe that and vibration. That letter, which gives the Secretary of their community should not suffer the adverse effects of State’s reasons for his decision to authorise the scheme, environmental harm that the Petitioners believe the may be viewed at: http://www.dft.gov.uk/publications/ Chiltern Railway’s Evergreen 3 project will cause due to twa-20121017a/.

481W Written Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 482W

these revised codes to deliver enhanced consumer Written Answers to protections as well as provide greater transparency about how these loans work. Citizens Advice and the four Questions trade associations will be monitoring lenders’ compliance. The trade associations will carry out review of the effectiveness of the Charter and Codes of Practice in Wednesday 21 November 2012 summer 2013. I look forward to considering the outcomes of that review. New Businesses ATTORNEY-GENERAL Burglary Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills from which budget funding for his Entrepreneurs and Education Programme has been Mr Hollobone: To ask the Attorney-General how allocated. [128754] many successful prosecutions there were for burglary in Northamptonshire in each of the last five years. [129037] Michael Fallon: Funding for the Entrepreneurs and Education programme is being provided under Section 12 The Solicitor-General: Tables have been deposited in of the Industrial Development Act 1982 and has been the Library of the House showing the number of burglary allocated from the budget available to the Department’s cases prosecuted in Northamptonshire in the last five Enterprise Directorate. years, and the outcome of those prosecutions, together with comparable data for the whole of England and Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Wales. Innovation and Skills what benchmarks and targets (a) Internet he and (b) his officials have set for his Entrepreneurs and Education Programme. [128755] Chi Onwurah: To ask the Attorney-General what Michael Fallon: Indicative targets have been set for assessment he has made of the level of public understanding the Entrepreneurs and Education programme. By March of the legal framework applicable to the internet. 2015, 72 events are expected to have been held under the [129033] programme, reaching over 10,500 staff and students from 100 higher and further education institutions and The Solicitor-General: The legal framework applicable directly engaging 80% of student enterprise societies. to the internet is, in essence, the same as that which applies beyond the internet. An offence committed on Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, the internet remains an offence. It is my belief that Innovation and Skills how many entrepreneurs he expects public awareness and understanding of this has been to receive support from his Entrepreneurs and Education raised by a number of high profile cases and court Programme. [128756] proceedings over recent months. These have resulted in both fines and imprisonment for the offenders and have Michael Fallon: The Entrepreneurs and Education been widely reported. programme is aimed at higher and further education The Law Commission is currently reviewing the law institutions, not at individual entrepreneurs. It will support of contempt and will look at the issue of contempt and entrepreneurship through engaging with over 10,500 staff the internet. A public consultation will shortly commence. and students from higher and further education institutions The Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) also intends and 80% of student enterprise societies. The programme to issue guidance to prosecutors on how offences involving will help those institutions become more entrepreneurial, social media and the internet should be prosecuted. As support the commercialisation of research projects and part of that process, the DPP has embarked on a series will give practical support in raising student enterprise of roundtable discussions with interested parties. aspirations. South East BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Credit: Interest Rates Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his Department is taking to raise awareness of its trade support service Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for amongst small and medium-sized businesses in the South Business, Innovation and Skills if he will review the East. [128470] effectiveness of the revised Codes of Practice of the trade associations representing the payday and short-term Michael Fallon: UK Trade & Investment (UKTI), the loan industry published on 25 July 2012; and if he will Government’s trade promotion organisation, undertakes a wide range of activity to promote awareness of trade make a statement. [128946] support services among small and medium-sized businesses Jo Swinson: The Government welcomed the strengthened in the South East. UKTI’s website at Codes of Practice and new Customer Charter published www.ukti.gov.uk in July by the four main payday and short-term lending provides a range of information and advice to businesses trade associations. These are due to be implemented by interested in exporting, access to over 5,000 business individual lenders no later than 26 November. We expect opportunities in addition to information on events, 483W Written Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 484W countries and sectors. Information specifically for firms records and the consequent difficulties in verifying any in the South East may be found at entitlement, it would not be practical to find a way to www.ukti.gov.uk/southeast recognise the contributions of individual civilian workers. UKTI is also supporting Open to Export However, an All Party Parliamentary Group on (OpenToExport.com)a new free online business community, Recognition for Munitions Workers was set up last year designed to bring companies best-practice knowledge to explore ways to ensure that the valiant collective and advice, helping them to successfully enter new efforts of all those who worked in munitions factories markets and operate overseas. are not forgotten—chaired by the hon. Member for UKTI’s South East team supplement those sources Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies). I am pleased to report of help and information with a range of activity across that this Remembrance Sunday, for the first time, munitions the region which includes: workers—both male and female—participated in the march past the Cenotaph. I understand the all-party events and training—focused on a range of sectors and overseas group is continuing its work, which includes a partnership markets; with the Imperial War Museum (supported by BAE partnership working—with a range of business representative Systems) to record the achievements of munitions workers, organisations and professional bodies; along with a possible national memorial at the National social media—where the strategy includes engagement with Memorial Arboretum in Shropshire. business via Twitter and LinkedIn; and online communications—where UKTI’s South East team communicates regularly with clients via a monthly ″Dates for the Diary″ e-magazine which reaches 25,000 companies. CABINET OFFICE UKTI’s South East team will also signpost relevant partner activities and promote access to events run by Business Appointments Advisory Committee UKTI and the wider support network. Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Office whether the Advisory Committee on Business Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has Appointments has raised any concerns with Ministers made of the extent to which new start-ups have regarding commercial employment contracts agreed by contributed to economic growth in the South East. former military personnel post-retirement since May [128476] 2010. [123933] Michael Fallon: One of the main contributions of Mr Maude: No. The role of the independent Advisory new start-ups to economic growth is the number of jobs Committee on Business Appointments is to advise the created. The best estimate we have is that start-ups are Prime Minister, Foreign Secretary and former Ministers responsible for a third of all jobs created1. on applications made to it under the Business Appointment According to Companies House, there were 450 000 Rules about appointments that former Ministers, senior new company registrations in Great Britain in 2011/12—the civil servants and other Crown servants, including the highest since records began in 1997/98 and up from most senior military personnel, wish to take up on 360,000 in 2009/10. However, the above data is not leaving Government. available at a regional level. The Office for National Statistics publishes the data Commissioning Academy Programme only on start-ups that is broken down to a regional level. However, note that the data is not comparable to Chris White: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet the Companies House figures provided above because it Office (1) what steps he has taken to integrate social relates to VAT/PAYE registered business start-ups. value into his Commissioning Academy programme; According to the ONS, there were 36,910 business [126336] births in the South East in 2010. Information for 2011 (2) when he plans to publish guidance for public sector will be published next month. commissioners on the Public Services (Social Value) 1 http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/enterprise/docs/j/11-1326- Act 2012; and if he will make a statement. [126742] job-creation-and-destruction-uk-1998-2010 World War II: Females Miss Chloe Smith: Guidance for public sector commissioners on the Public Services (Social Value) Act 2012 is currently being developed and will be issued Toby Perkins: To ask the Secretary of State for in due course. Business, Innovation and Skills with reference to the answer to the hon. Member for Hertford and Stortford The Commissioning Academy is currently being piloted. of 3 February 2011, Official Report, column 938W, on We are bringing together commissioners from different World War 2, what consideration has been given to the parts of the public sector to learn from the most successful recognition of women conscripted and serving in commissioning organisations, developing a cadre of munitions factories during the Second World War. professionals that are progressive in their outlook on [128418] how the public sector uses the resources available. Commissioners need to have the confidence, skills Michael Fallon: Careful consideration was given by and know-how to create, shape and manage new markets the Department of possible formal recognition of the for service provision that did not exist in the past. This enormous contribution made by all those who worked is bringing commissioners closer to the communities in munitions factories during the second world war. they serve, working in ways that involve co-design and Unfortunately, it was concluded that, given the lack of co-production with service users and providers. 485W Written Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 486W

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT The Government are not instructing local authorities to do this work in a particular way, but it expects there Affordable Housing to be an increase in the use of family intervention work, which has been shown to deliver results

Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Members: Correspondence Communities and Local Government what affordable housing has been built in each of the last five years. [128319] Amber Rudd: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government with reference to Mr Prisk: Statistics on newly built affordable housing, an email about a licensed developer scheme for local taken from the National Statistics on affordable housing planning proposals from the hon. Member’s constituent, supply in England, are published in live table 1009 on when his Department will respond to the letters from the Department for Communities and Local Government’s the hon. Member for Hastings and Rye of (a) 15 August website, which is available from the following link: 2012 (Ref: AR/EQ/1221), (b) 19 September 2012 (Ref: AR/EQ/1506) and (c) 6 November 2012 (Ref: AR/LS/ https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/live- 4595). [129166] tables-on-affordable-housing-supply Nick Boles: I replied to my hon. Friend on 14 November. Council Tax Benefits Right to Buy Scheme Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what recent Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for discussions he has had with local authorities on the Communities and Local Government how many costs they will incur if they have to carry out new people have taken advantage of the right to buy scheme consultations on council tax benefit schemes; and whether in each of the last five years. [128318] it is his policy that new consultations will be treated as new burdens and attract Government funding. [129093] Mr Prisk: Figures for right to buy sales for the last five financial years are shown in the following table: Brandon Lewis: Ministers within the Department for Communities and Local Government regularly meet Registered colleagues from the local government sector to discuss a provider right Total right to range of matters. Local to buy and buy and authority right preserved right preserved right Whether or not further consultation is required by Financial year to buy sales to buy sales to buy sales authorities who wish to apply for the transitional grant is a decision for individual local authorities. Each local 2011-12 2,610 1,110 3,720 authority will have to make a judgment, taking into 2010-11 2,730 960 3,690 account the scope of its own initial consultation, the 2009-10 2,370 800 3,170 scale of any changes that are required and whether 2008-09 2,880 1,000 3,870 these require further consultation. Nothing prevents a 2007-08 11,960 3,150 15,110 local authority undertaking such public engagement as Source: part of any wider consultation on its draft budget. Social Housing Sales, England, 2011-12 Right to buy discounts were increased in April 2012, For this reason, and because this is a voluntary and we are taking steps to inform local tenants of the scheme offering additional funding, Government do reinvigorated right to buy. not consider this a new burden, and do not intend to make available additional new burdens funding for this purpose, above the £100 million it has already made Right to Buy Scheme: Havering available for this scheme. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Family Intervention Projects Communities and Local Government how many people in the London borough of Havering have taken advantage of the right-to-buy scheme in each of the Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for last five years. [128216] Communities and Local Government what estimate he has made of the change in spending on family intervention Mr Prisk: Figures for right-to-buy sales for the last programmes in each local authority area since May five financial years are as follows: 2010. [128770] Right-to-buy sales (London Brandon Lewis: The Government do not require local Financial year borough of Havering) authorities to report expenditure on family intervention 2011-12 5 projects or comparable services. 2010-11 1— By June 2012, all upper-tier local authorities in England 2009-10 13 had signed up to the Troubled Families programme, 2008-09 12 committing to turn around an agreed number of families 2007-08 52 in their area. The Government will contribute up to 1 Not currently available. £4,000 per family towards the cost of successfully Source: intervening with eligible families across England. Social Housing Sales, England, 2011-12 487W Written Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 488W

Right-to-buy discounts were increased in April 2012, Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for and we are taking steps to inform local tenants of the Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport when she plans to reinvigorated right-to-buy. publish full details of compensation schemes for those who have had their television reception interrupted as a result of the launch of the 4G service. [129096]

CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Mr Vaizey: The Government have made clear that the BBC Trust new 800MHz licensees will be required to take steps to mitigate interference so that viewers do not lose access Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, to television services. Olympics, Media and Sport what discussions she, her Ministers and her officials had with Lord Patten, Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Chairman of the BBC Trust, between 1 October 2012 Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what estimate she has made of when people whose television reception is and 12 November 2012. [128641] interrupted due to the launch of the 4G service can Maria Miller [holding answer 19 November 2012]: I expect to have service fully restored. [129097] have spoken to Lord Patten on a number of occasions in the last month. We have discussed a range of issues in Mr Vaizey: The Government have made clear that it relation to the three strands of inquiry which the BBC requires the new 800 MHz licensees to take steps to have initiated into Savile and related matters (the Pollard mitigate interference for those households which are Review into Newsnight, the Smith Review into child likely to be affected by the roll-out of 4G in the 800 MHz protection issues and Dinah Rose QCs oversight of an band, who rely on digital terrestrial television for their internal review into sexual harassment) as well as the primary viewing. latest MacQuarrie investigation into inaccurate allegations The licensees will deliver assistance through a jointly on Newsnight, and he informed me of the resignation funded, owned and operated company, Digital Mobile of the Director General. While these issues are clearly a Spectrum Ltd, a body the current Mobile Network matter for the BBC Trust to manage, through our Operators have established for this purpose. conversations Lord Patten has kept me up-to-date with the latest developments and has answered my questions National Lottery: Olympic Games 2012 regarding the thoroughness and transparency of these investigations. Officials have also liaised with officials of Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for the BBC Trust on a number of occasions, both on Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what the total matters relating to the inquiries under way at the BBC contribution was to the London 2012 Olympic and into Savile and Newsnight and on routine issues. Paralympic Games from the (a) Big Lottery Fund and (b) National Lottery Distribution Fund. [128630] Broadband Hugh Robertson: £1.085 billion was transferred from Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for the National Lottery Distribution Fund to the London Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport when she expects 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games, of which the to receive state aid clearance from the European contribution in respect of the Big Lottery Fund was Commission for her Department’s local broadband £638 million. projects. [120192] National Lottery: Sports Mr Vaizey [holding answer 10 September 2012]: The European Commission confirmed approval of the UK Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for umbrella support scheme for investments in next generation Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what total Lottery access (NGA) broadband networks on 20 November funding was for each type of sport in each year since 2012. The UK National Competence Centre (NCC) 2000. [128631] will, with immediate effect, be able to assist local authorities in designing and implementing successful broadband Hugh Robertson: The information the Department support measures in line with EU competition rules. for Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) hold on Lottery funding for sport is not broken down by type of sport. Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for The DCMS Lottery Grants Database—searchable at: Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport with reference to her Department’s press notice of 21 February 2012, www.lottery.culture.gov.uk whether she has contingency funds available if funding —uses information on Lottery grants supplied by the is insufficient to compensate everyone whose television sport Lottery distributors, as well as the grants made by reception is affected by the launch of 4G. [129095] the Big Lottery Fund and its predecessor bodies to a wide range of community and grassroots sports projects. Mr Vaizey: As set out in my letter to the chief executive of Ofcom, published on 10 July 2012, the Olympic Lottery Government is confident that £180 million will be sufficient for the foreseeable tasks to address interference from Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for 4G mobile services to digital terrestrial television reception Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what information to be undertaken. This sum includes a significant her Department holds on how much has been raised contingency which, if not used, will be returned to the from dedicated London 2012 Olympic Lottery games mobile network operators when the scheme closes. in each year since their introduction. [128532] 489W Written Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 490W

Hugh Robertson: Dedicated Olympic Lottery games UK Sport is responsible for investing exchequer and raised the following annual amounts for the London lottery funds in Britain’s best Olympic and Paralympic Olympics: sports and athletes, this is not region specific. Between 2004 and 2010, exchequer funding was provided £ million by DCMS towards School Sports Partnerships, which 2005-06 16.486 was distributed by the Department for Education (then Department for Children, Schools and Families). 2006-07 113.323 2007-08 147.320 2008-09 135.397 Staff 2009-10 86.458 2010-11 106.849 Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, 2011-12 1136.028 Olympics, Media and Sport how much her Department Total 741.861 spent on (a) recruitment agency fees, (b) outplacement 1 Unaudited. agency fees for displaced or redundant staff and (c) staff training in each of the last 12 months. [125680] The target of £750 million has since been reached, though a final total will not be known until later in the Hugh Robertson: The information is as follows: year. Any excess in the Olympic Lottery Distribution (a) It is not currently possible to disaggregate recruitment Fund will be returned to the National Lottery Distribution fees from those paid to recruitment agencies for members Fund for distribution to the non-Olympic good causes of agency staff within the Department. Total fees paid in due course. to recruitment agencies during the past 12 months are as follows:

Sports: Kent £ Of which: Total less Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for Total BDUK BDUK Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how much her October 41,599 0 41,599 Department has spent on each sport in (a) Gillingham 2011 and Rainham constituency and (b) Medway since November 99,266 49,525 49,741 2005; and how much has been spent on each such sport 2011 in each such area through Lottery funding. [128632] December 50,215 0 50,215 2011 Hugh Robertson: This information is not held by the January 37,261 0 37,261 Department for Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) in 2012 the manner requested. February 79,385 0 79,385 2012 DCMS provides grant in aid funding to public bodies March 81,760 0 81,760 that help deliver our strategic aims and objectives for 2012 sport. The grant in aid allocated to the Department’s April 2012 23,552 0 23,552 sporting bodies since 2005, can be found in the May 2012 137,603 62,361 75,242 Department’s annual reports, and more recently, in June 2012 292,958 236,985 55,973 funding allocation letters, which can be found at the July 2012 110,262 47,439 62,823 following links: August -5,120 -76,614 71,494 http://www.culture.gov.uk/about_us/our_annual_report/ 2012 1052.aspx September 100,470 9,266 91,204 http://www.culture.gov.uk/images/publications/ 2012 Annual_Report_and_Accounts_2010_11.pdf Total 1,049,211 328,962 720,249 and (b) No fees were incurred for outplacement agency http://www.culture.gov.uk/publications/9020.aspx usage in the last 12 months. This Department operates a The information we hold on lottery funding for sport contract whereby costs are frontloaded to ensure that in the Gillingham and Rainham constituency and in our employees are able to access outplacement services Medway, is not broken down by type of sport. The as and when needed. In 2010, we paid £52,000 for DCMS lottery grants database, searchable by constituency outplacement services, covering all costs incurred between and local authority, at: 2010 and 2012. In the last 12 months, 90 people accessed www.lottery.culture.gov.uk these services. uses information on lottery grants supplied by the sport (c) Staff training costs during the past 12 months are lottery distributors, as well as the grants made by the as follows: Big Lottery Fund and its predecessor bodies to a wide range of community and grassroots sports projects. £ Sport England also publishes details of the exchequer October 2011 26,920 and lottery funding that they have allocated to grassroots November 2011 34,105 sport, since 2007, by constituency and local authority December 2011 14,559 on its website, at the following link: January 2012 27,622 http://www.sportengland.org/funding/ February 2012 63,098 local_spending_data.aspx March 2012 94,783 491W Written Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 492W

£ Length of Number of Army ranks (or continuity posting personnel (to the April 2012 59,723 equivalent) represented (months) nearest 10) May 2012 *-34,903 Major June 2012 7,437 Lieutenant Colonel July 2012 10,734 August 2012 10,591 Colonel September 2012 4,174 Major General * The negative spend figure in May 2012, is an adjustment to previous months in which pre-payments were made for block bookings of training events which fell in the next financial year. Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the involvement has been of UK military personnel in the villages of (a) Al Aqaba and (b) Khirbet Tana in Afghanistan. [128926] DEFENCE Dr Murrison [holding answer 20 November 2012]: I Afghanistan assume the hon. Member is referring to Israel and the Occupied Territories. We have no record of deploying Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for UK military personnel to either Al Aqaba or Khirbet Defence how many people have served on tours of duty Tana. of longer than six months in Afghanistan; and what the (a) tour dates, (b) rank, (c) regiment and (d) Armed Forces: Allowances reasons for the length of tour was. [128512] Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Dr Murrison [holding answer 19 November 2012]: if he will review the disturbance allowance to ensure The Ministry of Defence does not hold this information that extra costs for overseas moves are adequately reflected. centrally in the form requested, and in the interests of [128452] anonymity we do not release information of individual tours. Mr Francois: Disturbance allowance will be reviewed The MOD is able to confirm that at present around as part of the New Employment Model programme. 110 posts out of 9,500 in Afghanistan are subject to tour lengths of longer than six months to provide Armed Forces: Children continuity to the campaign. These posts are broken down as shown in the following table: Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what assessment he has made of the timeliness of nursery Length of Number of education payments for Army personnel. [128437] Army ranks (or continuity posting personnel (to the equivalent) represented (months) nearest 10) Mr Francois: Isolated detachment nursery allowance Staff Sergeant 8 10 is paid to service communities, small stations and isolated Warrant Officer Class 2 detachments overseas where service children’s education Warrant Officer Class 1 facilities are not available for three and four-year-old children. This forms an important part of the support Captain given to our service personnel at these overseas posts. Major I am not aware of any delays in making these routine Lieutenant Colonel payments to our families where entitled.

Captain 9 20 Armed Forces: Education Major Lieutenant Colonel Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what steps he plans to take to improve provision of educational programmes for members of the armed Staff Sergeant Major 12 50 forces. [128432] Lieutenant Colonel Colonel Mr Francois: Under the Defence systems approach to Brigadier training quality standards, all training and education is Major General subject to continuous improvement through evaluation Lieutenant General and review in order to ensure that it remains current and relevant. This process ensures that educational programmes for members of the armed forces are updated Major 18 <10 or improved as necessary.

Private 24 20 Armed Forces: Officers Lance Corporal Corporal Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Sergeant what steps he is taking to improve retention of highly experienced officers in the armed forces. [128445] 493W Written Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 494W

Mr Francois: All members of the armed forces continue Employment Agencies to receive an attractive package of terms and conditions of service, and targeted incentives are employed as a Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State means of tackling shortages in particular areas. We do for Defence what his policy is on the use of offshore not, however, consider that there is a specific issue to be employment companies in the supply of public sector addressed regarding the retention of highly experienced workers in his Department and its associated public officers. bodies. [128731] The Ministry of Defence does, however, recognise that the current employment model for service personnel Mr Francois: A new framework agreement covering has not changed much in the last 40 years and requires the use of temporary labour by all Government improvement to better meet the needs of today’s modern Departments, is currently under consideration. armed forces. The New Employment Model programme has been established to redesign existing employment Libya arrangements for service personnel, and aims to promote greater stability in service life balanced against the requirement to deliver operational capability. It will be Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for designed to meet the expectations of a generation that Defence on how many occasions UK personnel flew has yet to join, but it must be delivered in a way that armed remotely-piloted air system missions during continues to support and motivate existing personnel. It Operation Ellamy. [124378] is anticipated that a period of consultation with service personnel will commence in summer 2013. Dr Murrison: During Operation Ellamy last year, UK personnel embedded with United States forces contributed to around 200 armed remotely piloted air system missions Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence as part of the NATO mission in support of United how many officers left the armed forces before retirement Nations Security Council Resolution 1973. age in each of the last five years. [128446] Maritime Surveillance Mr Francois: The information is not held in the format requested. The armed forces retirement age varies according to the terms of service for the individual’s Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for branch or trade, their length of commission or engagement Defence how he intends to provide maritime surveillance and operational requirements. In the Royal Navy, Army capability. [128705] and Royal Air Force, the usual age for termination of service is 55, but the retirement age may be extended Mr Dunne [holding answer 20 November 2012]: The subject to the demands of the service. UK’s maritime surveillance capabilities are delivered by a wide range of platforms and assets, including ships, The Ministry of Defence does, however, regularly submarines, aircraft and space and sea-bed based publish information relating to outflow of personnel capabilities, and every Royal Navy vessel at sea carries from the Department, including specific statistics about out maritime surveillance routinely and continually. outflow of officers. This information is available in the public domain in the National Statistics Publications section of the Military Alliances www.dasa.mod.uk website in tables 7 and 8 of ‘TSP 19—UK Regular Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Forces Intake and Outflow by Age’, Table 7a of the what discussions he has had with his American and ‘UK Armed Forces—Quarterly Personnel Report’, Table French counterparts on co-operation on (a) training 8 (on page 13) of the ‘UK Armed Forces—Annual and (b) weapons. [128998] Manning Report’ and Table 8 (on page 14) of the ‘UK Armed Forces—Annual Personnel Report’. Dr Murrison: The Secretary of State for Defence, my right hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr Hammond), is in regular communication Canada with his American and French counterparts on a broad range of defence issues.

Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Military Bases: Recycling what representations he has received on the adequacy of the overseas living allowance for Army families living in Canada. [128436] Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what estimate he has made of the value of savings achieved through recycling at British Army Training Mr Francois: There have been no specific representations Unit Suffield. [129001] made recently to the Ministry of Defence regarding local overseas allowance (LOA) in Canada. The LOA Mr Francois: The Army has recently joined the Canadian rate is reviewed annually. Armed Forces’ recycling contract at British Army Training In addition, as part of the New Employment Model Unit Suffield and expects to save £950,000 per year as a programme, consideration will be given to the future result. By continuing to work with the Canadians, other needs of service personnel and their families, including potential recycling opportunities are being identified, any specific needs of personnel assigned overseas. which may produce further savings in the future. 495W Written Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 496W

Navy Meteorological Office, and the collection of side scan sonar and bathymetric data in UK waters for the British Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Geological survey. what non-military uses are made of data collected by Sick Leave Royal Navy survey vessels. [129000] Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Dr Murrison: The Royal Navy survey vessels are for how many and what proportion of days, on average, primarily involved in military data gathering in support staff of his Department at each pay grade were absent of the Defence Hydrographic programme. Wherever from work as a result of ill health in each of the last five possible Royal Navy survey assets, within limitations of years. [127182] programming, support the Civil Hydrographic programme, the National Hydrographic programme and assist in Mr Francois: The information requested is shown in meeting the obligations imposed by the United Nations the following table. Grade equivalent rates, used in Convention on the Law of the Sea and Safety of Life at Cabinet Office absence reporting, include non-industrial, Sea. industrial and trading fund personnel, but exclude Royal Further examples include the support of the Royal Fleet Auxiliary and locally engaged civilians for whom Navy Ice Patrol Ship to the British Antarctic survey, the sickness absence data is not readily available.

Grade 1 April 2007 to 1 April 2008 to 1 April 2009 to 1 April 2010 to 1 April 2011 to (equivalent) 31 March 2008 31 March 2009 31 March 2010 31 March 2011 31 March 2012

AA Total number of days 2,549,450 2,279,750 2,187,280 2,093,030 1,786,700 worked1 Total number of days 138,840 116,840 115,620 103,780 92,850 lost Proportion of days lost 5.45 5.12 5.29 4.96 5.20 (percentage)

AO Total number of days 6,213,020 5,911,770 5,821,540 5,581,000 5,111,180 worked1 Total number of days 277,480 255,700 253,890 232,630 217,850 lost Proportion of days lost 4.47 4.33 4.36 4.17 4.26 (percentage)

EO Total number of days 3,040,950 3,050,110 2,882,890 2,690,590 2,596,500 worked1 Total number of days 105,560 104,290 101,120 91,620 88,970 lost Proportion of days lost 3.47 3.42 3.51 3.41 3.43 (percentage)

HEO Total number of days 2,503,210 2,607,200 2,584,840 2,541,890 2,489,830 worked1 Total number of days 64,950 64,240 64,730 68,970 65,740 lost Proportion of days lost 2.59 2.46 2.50 2.71 2.64 (percentage)

SEO Total number of days 1,513,640 1,705,880 1,643,840 1,576,440 1,554,890 worked1 Total number of days 31,700 35,890 36,350 32,070 33,640 lost Proportion of days lost 2.09 2.10 2.21 2.03 2.16 (percentage)

G7 Total number of days 471,680 670,360 654,870 626,390 607,160 worked1 Total number of days 7,240 9,810 10,670 10,490 9,920 lost Proportion of Days 1.54 1.46 1.63 1.67 1.63 Lost

G6 Total number of days 162,500 189,110 182,640 173,560 173,260 worked1 Total number of days 1,930 2,070 2,560 1,970 2,170 lost 497W Written Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 498W

Grade 1 April 2007 to 1 April 2008 to 1 April 2009 to 1 April 2010 to 1 April 2011 to (equivalent) 31 March 2008 31 March 2009 31 March 2010 31 March 2011 31 March 2012

Proportion of days lost 1.19 1.09 1.40 1.14 1.25 (percentage)

SCS Total number of days 67,520 71,900 71,660 68,270 63,070 worked1 Total number of days 670 660 580 610 400 lost Proportion of days lost 0.99 0.92 0.81 0.90 0.64 (percentage) 1 Data presented reflects the current Cabinet Office definition, setting a maximum absence of 225 days per person, and excludes data for weekends, annual leave and bank holidays. Excludes personnel on zero pay. Source: DASA (Civilian)

Trident problem related to their military service. This is provided through the Veterans and Reserves Mental Health Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Programme (previously the Medical Assessment Defence how many staff were (a) employed and (b) Programme). The MOD Service Personnel and Veterans consulted on the production of the 2006 White Paper Agency and Veterans Welfare Service are also able to entitled The Future of the UK Independent Nuclear provide support and assistance to ex-service personnel Deterrent. [128979] residing in Northern Ireland.

Dr Murrison: The 2006 White Paper entitled The World War II: Anniversaries Future of the UK Independent Nuclear Deterrent (Cm 6994) was produced by the Deterrent Options Policy Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for Group, which consisted of around 10 people. This Defence what plans his Department has to commemorate group consulted widely within the Ministry of Defence, the 70th anniversary of the Battle of the Atlantic in other Government Departments and the wider stakeholder 2013. [128623] community. Type 45 Destroyers Mr Francois: The Government is considering a number of commemorative events for both world war one and world war two. Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the unit production cost of the Type-45 The Ministry of Defence is considering several requests frigate is. [128704] to support civil society-led commemorations of the Battle of the Atlantic and discussions are ongoing. Mr Dunne [holding answer 20 November 2012]: The Type-45 destroyer unit production cost is £651 million, as reported in the National Audit Office Major Projects Report for 2011. DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER Veterans: Post-traumatic Stress Disorder Elections

Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Hanson: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister if he Defence what steps he is taking to address the needs of will bring forward legislative proposals to require all ex-service personnel in Northern Ireland affected by who stand for election to Parliament, the devolved post traumatic stress disorder. [128424] assemblies, police and crime commissioner posts and local authorities as independent candidates to declare Mr Francois: The healthcare of our former service any political party membership that they hold at the personnel is a matter that this Government continues to time of nomination. [129446] take very seriously.The provision of healthcare in Northern Ireland is a devolved issue and matter for the Northern Miss Chloe Smith: The Government has no plans to Ireland Executive. Mental health and the extension of require those wishing to stand as independent candidates services, including psychological therapy for all citizens, to disclose any political party membership they might is a Northern Ireland Executive priority. However, in hold at the time of nomination. It is for prospective recognition of their special circumstances, the Ministry candidates to decide whether they wish to stand of Defence (MOD) funds the provision of the Ulster independently or on behalf of a registered political Defence Regiment (UDR) and the Royal Irish Regiment party. Home Service (R Irish (HS)) After Care Service which provides medical, vocational, welfare and benevolence Trident support to former UDR and R Irish (HS) soldiers and their families. Alison Seabeck: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister The MOD also offers a thorough mental health what contact members of the armed forces in the (a) assessment to ex-service personnel deployed on operations Army, (b) Royal Navy and (c) Royal Air Force have since 1982, including those living in Northern Ireland, had with the Cabinet Office team responsible for the who may be concerned that they have a mental health Trident Alternatives Review through (i) meetings and 499W Written Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 500W

(ii) correspondence including emails; and what the punishment. Research in England and Wales shows that rank was of each such member of the armed forces in fewer parents now choose to use physical punishment each such category. [126988] and more parents are using alternative approaches to discipline. Danny Alexander: I have been asked to reply as the There are no existing commitments to bring forward Minister responsible for the Trident Alternatives Review. new proposals related to Sir Roger Singleton’s report To date, the Cabinet Office team has sought advice but we will continue to consider whether that would be from a range of specialists within all three services of appropriate. the armed forces up to Rear Admiral/Major General/Air Vice Marshal. Dyslexia: Apprentices A detailed breakdown of meetings and correspondence between the armed forces and the Cabinet Office Team, Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for including the ranks of those who have been involved, is Education what support his Department provides to not held centrally and could be provided only at help young people with dyslexia apply for apprenticeships. disproportionate cost. [128935]

Matthew Hancock: The National Apprenticeship Service EDUCATION is responsible for delivery of the Apprenticeship programme including supporting all prospective applicants; it runs Children in Care an online apprenticeship vacancies system and provides advice on applying for apprenticeships on the internet Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for or by phone. The National Careers Service also has Education when he plans to publish his proposals for advisers who can help with applications. reducing the number of children in care placed out of Peter Little’s report, “Creating an inclusive apprenticeship area in residential homes. [129036] offer” found that in 2010/11 12,100 apprentices reported that they had dyslexia. This number has increased each Mr Timpson: The Out of Area Placements Task and year from 4,400 in 2005/6. Mr Little made a number of Finish Group has been considering how to ensure that recommendations to help improve the accessibility of there is much better scrutiny, planning and assessment apprenticeships. The Government’s response has now of needs and risks before decisions are taken to place a been published in the form of an action plan and child at a distance. It has also been discussing how to includes a number of measures to support learners with improve arrangements, and the quality of care and LDD in preparing for and applying for apprenticeships–for support, for looked after children who are placed ‘out example: work with providers and employers to promote of area’ by their local authorities. Chaired by the positive statements in relation to the recruitment of Department, the group has comprised senior expert apprentices with learning difficulties or disabilities and representation from children’s services, local authorities, roll out the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) providers, Ofsted and others. The Task and Finish two ticks scheme which indicates that the employer is Group has met frequently since July. positive about employing disabled people. This Task and Finish Group is working in parallel with two other expert groups established to take forward Special Educational Needs work on the reform of children’s residential care: a group focusing on improving data about looked after Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for children who go missing from care, and a further group Education if he will ensure that Parliament has an with a broad remit to consider how to improve the opportunity to examine the value for money and outcomes overall quality of children’s residential provision. achieved by the special educational needs direct payments We are considering the Task and Finish group’s pilot schemes before consideration of the Children and proposals, alongside those made by the other expert Families Bill. [128775] groups, and will announce the action we intend to take in due course. Mr Timpson: The implementation of the SEN (Direct Payments) (Pilot Scheme) Order 2012, including Children: Corporal Punishment requirements in the order for local authorities to consider the efficient use of public funds, is subject to a discrete Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for evaluation as part of the ongoing wider evaluation of Education pursuant to the answer of 8 November 2012, the SEND Green Paper pathfinder programme. Official Report, column 688W, on children: corporal The evaluation is focusing on the development processes punishment, when he expects to (a) complete his and challenges involved in setting up direct payments consideration of Sir Roger Singleton’s report and (b) for special educational provision and, in doing so, is bring forward proposals. [129034] seeking to provide evidence in relation to: The level of demand from families for SEN Direct Payments; Mr Timpson: The Government is considering the recommendations made in Sir Roger Singleton’s report. The practicalities of introducing SEN Direct Payments; and All supplementary schools and alternative care and The implications for wider provision. learning settings must abide by child protection and In addition, the full evaluation is, among other issues, safeguarding laws. The Government also continues to seeking to establish whether the pathfinders demonstrate encourage parenting programmes which promote the value for money, by looking at the cost of our reform use of alternative forms of discipline rather than physical programme and associated benefits. 501W Written Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 502W

To date, the Department for Education has published made in the sector since December 2011 and events to two quarterly reports and most recently, on 18 October highlight innovations that have taken place. I will be 2012, an interim evaluation report. All are available on releasing more details shortly. the Department’s website and were sent to the Education Select Committee as part of the process of pre-legislative scrutiny: ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE http://www.education.gov.uk/researchandstatistics/research/ researchpublications Fuel Poverty The final evaluation report will be published in the Sarah Newton: To ask the Secretary of State for summer of 2013 and, as such, will be available to help Energy and Climate Change what recent assessment he Parliament in its considerations of our reforms. has made of the number of people in fuel poverty in the UK. [129181] Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education pursuant to the answer of 30 October 2012, Gregory Barker: Fuel poverty is measured at a household Official Report, column 205W, on special educational rather than individual level. In 2010, the latest year for needs, for what reasons each of the publications listed which data are available, an estimated 4.75 million was removed from his Department’s website; and what households in the UK were in fuel poverty.This represented additional training materials relating to special educational approximately 19% of all UK households. needs have been commissioned or accredited by his Department and published on its website since May Fuel Poverty: Devon 2010. [128778] Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Timpson: Each of these publications was archived Energy and Climate Change how many households as part of a move away from bureaucratic, central were in fuel poverty in (a) Plymouth, (b) Devon and prescription of how children should be taught. The (c) Torbay in (i) 2010, (ii) 2011 and (iii) the latest period intention is to give greater control to teachers and for which figures are available. [129513] enable them to use their professional judgement. Gregory Barker: In 2010, the latest year for which data The Department for Education and the Teaching is available, the number of households in the county of Agency are working with specialist organisations (such Devon estimated to be in fuel poverty was 81,100 (17%). as the Dyslexia-SpLD Trust, Autism Education Trust In the local authorities of Plymouth and Torbay, it was and Communications Trust) to make sure that those 15,000 (14%) and 9,800 (16%) respectively. materials that professionals and families find most useful remain available. Offshore Industry As noted in the previous response, there are two sets Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for of additional training materials that have been developed Energy and Climate Change what discussions he has since May 2010 and remain available on the Department’s had with Ministerial colleagues in the Department for website. Transport on the Air Accident Investigation Branch’s The first set was commissioned by the Teaching initial report into the causes of the emergency ditching of Agency in response to recommendations made in the a Super Puma EC225 in the North Sea on 22 October Salt Review in 2010. These materials have been developed 2012; and if he will make a statement. [128093] for use by any audience with an interest in the teaching of children and young people with severe learning difficulties Mr Hayes: DECC Ministers meet regularly with (SLD); profound and multiple learning difficulties (PMLD) Ministers in BIS to discuss a range of issues. As has and/or complex learning difficulties and disabilities been the case with successive administrations, it is not (CLDD). They can be used by anyone with an interest the Government’s practice to provide details of all such in special educational needs and disabilities (SEND). meetings. There is also a set of advanced-level training materials Renewable Energy for teachers working with children with the most common forms of SEN: specific learning difficulties (including Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for dyslexia and dyscalculia); autism; behavioural, emotional Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the oral answer and social difficulties; as well as speech; language and from the Prime Minister of 31 October 2012, Official communication needs. These were commissioned following Report, column 229, on investment in renewable energy, the Lamb enquiry which highlighted the importance of how much investment there has been in renewable energy teachers acquiring advanced skills around the five main in each of the last 13 years. [128188] SEND areas. Mr Hayes: We do not hold details of investment in Young People: Departmental Coordination renewable energy on an annual basis for each of the past 13 years. However the official departmental electricity Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for capacity data as published in Dukes1 shows the annual Education what plans he has to mark the first anniversary renewable electricity capacity. The UK is on track to of Positive for Youth. [129035] double its renewable electricity capacity from 8GW at the end of 2009, to 16GW2 by the end of 2012. Mr Timpson: Officials are currently working on plans 1 Source: for marking the one year anniversary of the publication http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/statistics/energy_stats/ of Positive for Youth, including the publication of source/renewables/renewables.aspx information and data showing progress that has been 2 DECC internal analysis 503W Written Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 504W

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Number Ash Dieback Disease Scotland 505 Wales 57 Simon Reevell: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on what date his Department was notified about the discovery of Chalara Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, fraxinea in the UK; for what reasons the plant health Food and Rural Affairs what measures are in place, and order was not put into place until 29 October 2012; and what steps his Department is taking, to protect the hen what steps his Department is taking to prevent the harrier. [127536] contamination of UK seedlings. [128533] Richard Benyon: All wild birds are protected under Mr Heath: “Chalara fraxinea” was first confirmed in the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 and it is an the UK on 7 March 2012, following investigation on offence to kill or injure any wild bird; take, damage or 20 February 2012 of suspect symptoms during a routine destroy the nest of any wild bird while that nest is in use inspection at a nursery in Buckinghamshire by the Food or being built; and take or destroy an egg of any wild and Environment Research Agency’s Plant Health and bird. Some birds are further protected by their listing on Seeds Inspectorate. At this stage there was no reason to Schedule 1 to the Act; it is also an offence to intentionally consider that this was other than a single finding, given or recklessly disturb them while they are building a nest, there was no history of the disease in the UK nor in or are on, in, or near a nest containing eggs or their traded plants. Following further findings, in planted young. Hen harriers are listed in Schedule 1. sites, a Pest Risk Analysis was undertaken and then a In addition to this strict legal protection, a number of consultation launched to establish the scale of the problem measures are being taken. Raptor persecution is one of and, given the previous scarcity of information about the six wildlife crime priorities for the UK with the hen the trade in ash plants, to obtain the views of those in harrier being one of six species highlighted for particular the forestry and horticultural industries before we took attention. DEFRA is involved with the Environment any final decisions. This was done outside of the planting Council-facilitated Hen Harrier Dialogue Working Group season and finished well before the planting season was and recently DEFRA officials have established a Hen due to begin. The consultation closed on 26 October. Harrier Sub-Group (part of the Uplands Stakeholder The Government acted once it became clear restrictions Forum) where work with stakeholders is ongoing to on ash imports were necessary and supported by those consider which actions will best assist to secure the involved in the industry. We needed to assess the situation future of the hen harrier in England by reversing the and consider the impact before seeking approval for decline in the population. legislation which came into force on 29 October and followed a voluntary moratorium by the industry. Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, The Government recently brought together scientists, Food and Rural Affairs how many prosecutions there campaigners, charitable groups and woodland agencies have been of offences relating to the killing of hen to discuss what action should be taken to address the harriers in the last five years. [127537] disease. The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs set out an immediate plan of action Richard Benyon: The Ministry of Justice Court that was agreed on 9 November at the COBR meeting. Proceedings Database holds information on defendants Over the coming weeks the Government will work with proceeded against, found guilty and sentenced for criminal scientific experts and other interested groups to develop offences. This database holds information on offences further and implement the measures in the plan, and to provided by the statutes under which proceedings are set a longer term approach to tackling “Chalara fraxinea”. brought but not all the specific circumstances of each With regard specifically to young trees, newly-planted case. It is not possible to separately identify from this diseased trees and diseased trees in nurseries will be centrally held information the number of prosecutions traced and destroyed, as once young trees are infected for offences relating to the killing of wild birds which they succumb quickly. related specifically to the killing of hen harriers. Birds of Prey Common Agricultural Policy

Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State Food and Rural Affairs how many breeding pairs of for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) whether hen harriers there are nesting in each constituent part of he has assessed the potential effect on (a) each the UK. [127421] agricultural sector, (b) upland hill farm incomes and (c) agri-environment schemes of (i) any delay in Richard Benyon: According to the most recent national agreement on the EU budget and (ii) the time taken to hen harrier survey in 2010, it is estimated that there are reform the common agricultural policy; [128677] a total of 633 territorial pairs of hen harriers in the UK. (2) what assessment he has made of the potential In each constituent part of the UK the estimates are as impact on (a) farming in the UK and (b) reform of follows: the common agricultural policy of any failure to agree an EU budget. [128691] Number

England 12 Mr Heath: If there is a significant delay in agreement to the EU budget for 2014-2020 there is the potential Northern Ireland 59 for it to have a knock-on effect to the common agricultural 505W Written Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 506W policy (CAP) post 2013. The European Commission’s Commission to make sure CAP implementation happens aim is to implement the reformed CAP by January at the earliest appropriate date and to ensure that there 2014. However, this has always been a very ambitious are the necessary transition arrangements in place where target and the UK has consistently called for sufficient they are needed. time to implement CAP reform successfully. On that basis the UK will continue to work proactively Eggs: Imports with the European Commission to make sure CAP implementation happens at the earliest appropriate date Neil Parish: To ask the Secretary of State for and to ensure that there are the necessary transition Environment, Food and Rural Affairs by what means arrangements in place where they are needed. This the value of egg imports for each commodity product means legislation which enables a smooth transition code is used to calculate the quantity of eggs imported. between programmes with minimal disruption so we [129053] can continue payments to all types of farming. Mr Heath: The value of egg imports is sourced from Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State HM Revenue and Customs data. for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment he has made of the number of farmers The value of egg imports is used to derive an estimate reliant on agri-environmental schemes for income; of the volume of imports. This is because the value data and what consideration he has given to measures to are generally considered to be of greater reliability than support their livelihoods in the event that a reformed the volume data. common agricultural policy does not enter into force For shell eggs, a constant coefficient is applied to the on 1 January 2014. [128692] value of imports to estimate the volume of imports. This coefficient has been derived from historical analysis Mr Heath: As at 24 September there were 53,717 of relative values and volumes. farmers in England’s agri-environment schemes. EU For egg products, different coefficients are applied, rules require that payments under these agreements can depending on the product and therefore its estimated cover only additional costs and income foregone resulting whole egg content. These are then used to derive whole from the commitment made, including transaction costs. egg equivalent volumes for egg products. These payments contain no element of income support. The EU Commission and Council have an ambition Neil Parish: To ask the Secretary of State for to secure agreement on a new rural development regulation Environment, Food and Rural Affairs by what means by the summer of 2013 in order to allow implementation the value of egg imports by commodity product code is of the new programme from 1 January 2014. However, represented in his Department’s quarterly egg import it is likely that negotiations could last well into 2013 and figures. [129054] therefore implementation may be delayed. DEFRA is working to prepare for a planned transition Mr Heath: The value of egg imports is not published from the current Rural Development Programme for in the quarterly egg statistics notice. However, the value England (RDPE) to a new programme (2014-20) to of egg imports is used as the basis for calculating the reduce the impact on the farming and forestry sectors volume of imports in the notice. as well as wider rural business and rural communities. The value of egg imports and exports is published on DEFRA is keeping key stakeholders regularly informed the DEFRA website at: regarding the transition to the next programming period. http://www.defra.gov.uk/statistics/foodfarm/food/ I will continue to work proactively with the European overseastrade/ Commission to make sure CAP implementation happens at the earliest appropriate date and to ensure that there Horses: Exports are the necessary arrangements in place to secure a smooth transition. Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps he is Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for taking to improve the welfare arrangements for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what discussions export of horses for slaughter. [129031] he has had with Ministers in the devolved Administrations on any adverse effects arising from delays in agreement on the EU budget. [128693] Mr Heath: The Government support the recommendation made by the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA) Mr Heath: The Secretary of State for Environment, that the maximum journey time for horses going to Food and Rural Affairs, the right hon. Member for slaughter should be reduced from 24 hours to 12 hours. North Shropshire (Mr Paterson), and I work closely We will continue to press the Commission to introduce with the devolved Administrations. Our most recent this change at the earliest possible opportunity. meeting on 19 November addressed CAP reform and other issues. Our discussions will inform the joint UK Livestock: Exports negotiating position at Council in November and December. We all believe that the European Commission’s aim Mr Watts: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, to implement the reformed CAP by January 2014 is a Food and Rural Affairs what steps he is taking to very ambitious target, as the UK considers it does not ensure that thorough animal health inspections are allow enough time to implement the proposals fully. I undertaken on livestock when loaded for export and will continue to work proactively with the European upon arrival at port. [128725] 507W Written Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 508W

Mr Heath: The Animal Health and Veterinary the next crucial months, co-ordinating closely with our Laboratories Agency (AHVLA) is responsible for international partners, to encourage the Fijian authorities implementation of the EU rules on the protection of to continue to take steps towards elections scheduled animals during transport (Council Regulation (EC) for 2014. 1/2005). AHVLA has recently increased the inspection rate of animals and vehicles at the point of loading to Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for 100% and will remain at that level until the risks involved Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps his merit a more normal risk-based percentage of inspections. Department is taking to promote democracy and good The checks undertaken by AHVLA inspectors at the governance in Fiji. [128401] point of loading include consignment details, transporter/ driver details, journey details and a separate checklist of Mr Swire: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office 33 questions on the suitability of the vehicle and the (FCO) continues to urge Fiji to return to democracy. welfare of the animals being transported. Any non- We regularly raise progress with the Fijian authorities compliances are recorded and the necessary action taken and with the Fijian High Commissioner in London. by AHVLA inspectors. A further check is made by The then Minister of State, the hon. Member for Taunton AHVLA inspectors at the port to ensure nothing untoward Deane (Mr Browne), underlined the importance of has occurred during the transport from the point of maintaining progress towards the scheduled democratic loading. elections in Fiji when he met the Fijian President in August 2012. The FCO has provided political and material support to the Constitution Commission as they engage with FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE the local Fijian population on the forming of a new Fijian Constitution, including contributing £49,000 to Fiji the NGO Conciliation Resources to help gather submissions from the Fijian people on the shape of the country’s Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for new Constitution. We also encourage our international Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent partners to do likewise. We ensured the European Union assessment he has made of the UK’s relationship with included a specific focus on elections and human rights Fiji. [128397] issues in Fiji in the EU-Pacific Island Development Partnership agreed in June 2012. With UK support, the Mr Swire: The UK maintains full diplomatic relations EU has also undertaken to provide ¤1.3 million funding with Fiji, often against a difficult backdrop following to support consultation on the new Constitution from the 2006 military coup which led to Fiji’s suspension the EU Instrument for Stability (IFS) fund. from the Commonwealth. The UK-Fiji relationship is multi-faceted—there are Palestinians around 2,500 Fijians in the British armed forces and we have active trade links, particularly around Fijian sugar. Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign On the political front, while we continue to have concerns and Commonwealth Affairs what his policy is on about the human rights situation and the lack of democratic recognising Palestine as a non-member observer state at elections, we are cautiously encouraged by a number of the United Nations General Assembly on 29 November positive developments, including the launch of a 2012. [129098] Constitution Commission and electoral registration. I have therefore instructed my officials to intensify contacts Alistair Burt: The British Government is clear that a over the next crucial months, co-ordinating closely with negotiated two-state solution is the best way to give the our international partners, in order to encourage the Palestinian people the state that they need and deserve, Fijian authorities to continue to take steps towards and the Israeli people the security and peace they are elections in 2014 and a possible return to democracy. entitled to. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for This requires Israelis and Palestinians to return to Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many officials negotiations. Israel to stop illegal settlement building, Palestinian factions to reconcile with each other and the of his Department are stationed in Fiji. [128398] international community led by the United States and Mr Swire: The UK has full diplomatic relations with supported by European nations to make a huge effort the Republic of Fiji where there are approximately to push the peace process forward as a matter of urgency. 20 staff currently working at our high commission in While there is any chance of achieving a return to Suva. This includes UK based civil servants and staff talks in the coming months, we continue to advise employed locally. President Abbas against attempts to press for Palestinian observer state status at the United Nations through a Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for vote in the UN General Assembly. We judge that this Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he plans would make it harder to secure a return to negotiations, to visit Fiji in the next 12 months. [128399] and could have very serious consequences for the Palestinian Authority. Mr Swire: There are currently no plans for the Secretary Our collective goal must be a two state solution based of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my on 1967 borders with agreed land swaps. Jerusalem as right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) the capital of both states, and a just settlement for (Mr Hague), to visit Fiji in the next 12 months. However, refugees. So while we support Palestinian aspirations I have instructed my officials to intensify contacts over and understand the pressures on President Abbas, we 509W Written Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 510W have urged him to lead the Palestinians into negotiations The UK also welcomed the 24 September Human Rights and not to risk paralysing the process. We have also Council resolution on Somalia and the recommendations urged Israel to make every effort to restart negotiations, of the Independent Expert, including calls for greater before the window for a two-state solution closes altogether. monitoring of violations. FCO officials are in close contact with the new Somali authorities and will be Pay encouraging them to develop this approach.

Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Somaliland and Commonwealth Affairs how many employees in his Department are paid in excess of (a) £80,000 and (b) £100,000. [128943] Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his policy is Alistair Burt: Policy for the remuneration for all senior on the application of Somaliland for observer status in civil servants is set centrally by the Cabinet Office. the Commonwealth of Nations. [128403] The Foreign and Commonwealth Office has a global network of over 270 diplomatic offices (including embassies, Mr Swire: While the UK acknowledges Somaliland’s high commissions and consulates). The heads of these aspirations for independence, Somaliland is not recognised diplomatic offices help safeguard Britain’s national security as an independent sovereign state. The only category of and build Britain’s prosperity, as well as supporting membership in the Commonwealth is that of a sovereign British citizens overseas. As a result we have a high state as full member. In 2007 Commonwealth Heads of number of staff in these senior roles which command Government endorsed the recommendation of the relatively high salaries. Commonwealth Committee on Membership not to establish observer status. Approximately 97% of FCO employees receive a salary of less than £80,000. Of the remainder, 109 employees, Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for of which 64 are based overseas, receive a salary of between Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent £80,000 and £99,999; and 34 employees, of which 22 are discussions he has had with his Somali counterpart on based overseas, receive over £100,000. This is correct as UK aid expenditure in Somaliland. [128405] at 31 October 2012. The FCO publishes salary data on all staff at senior Justine Greening: I have been asked to reply on behalf civil service Grade 2 and above (minimum salary £82,900). of the Department for International Development. This publication includes names and salaries in £5,000 bands. The latest version currently available is at Department for International Development (DFID) 30 September 2011 published in November 2011: officials attended the High Level Aid Co-ordination Forum (HLACF) in Hargeisa, Somaliland on the 11 http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/publications-and-documents/ transparency-and-data1/fco-staff-salary/ and 12 September 2012. This is a six-monthly forum attended by several Government of Somaliland Ministers The 2012 publication is being prepared for publication and chaired by the United Nations Resident Co-ordinator and is expected to be released at the end of this month. for Somalia. The Government of Somaliland presented The FCO also publishes salary data for all staff its mid-term review of aid effectiveness showing that whose basic salary is greater than £150,000. The latest the UK ranked first out of 11 other bilateral donors. publication was in November 2012: DFID delivered a presentation on future plans for UK http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/senior-civil- development assistance. servants-high-earners-salaries Somalia HEALTH Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he has had with his Somali counterpart on human Cancer rights in Somalia. [128406] Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Mark Simmonds: The appointment of a new Health (1) with reference to his Department’s document Government in Somalia on 13 November provides us on the value for money addendum to the strategic with the opportunity to discuss a range of key issues outline case for the national proton beam therapy service with new interlocutors. Human rights will be a priority development programme, what financial due diligence, on this agenda. We will press the new Government on aside from the informal costings conducted by University the urgent need to improve the human rights situation College London hospital, his Department has undertaken in Somalia and to tackle the significant concerns which in relation to the projected capital costs of the proton have been raised by the UN and other organisations. beam equipment to be installed in (a) University College One of the main problems is securing safe access; but London Hospital and (b) the Christie NHS Foundation we hope that recent security gains will promote stability Trust; [128483] and enable greater access to monitor and address human (2) with reference to section 2 of his Department’s rights violations. document on the value for money addendum to the I discussed President Hassan Sheikh Mohamud’s strategic outline case for the national proton beam priorities for government—including security, justice therapy service development programme, whether the and good governance—with him when I visited Mogadishu comparative conventional radiotherapy referred to includes on 4 October. I stressed that the UK is committed to intensity modulated radiation therapy, stereotactic ablative working with the Somali Government on these issues. radiotherapy and radiosurgery; [128484] 511W Written Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 512W

(3) whether proton beam therapy programmes in 1 ’Psychiatric conditions’ include the most common mental disorders Germany were included as part of any of the international (namely anxiety and depressive disorders) as well as: psychotic disorder; evidence considered in the value for money addendum antisocial and borderline personality disorders; eating disorder; to the strategic outline case for the national proton posttraumatic stress disorder; attention deficit hyperactivity disorder; beam therapy service development programme document. alcohol and drug dependency; and problem behaviours such as problem [128489] gambling and suicide attempts. These are defined according to different classification criteria and refer to a variety of different, reference periods, as detailed in the background information provided. Mixed Anna Soubry: The cost and benefits of the national anxiety and depressive disorder was defined following the exclusion of health service acquiring two proton beam therapy (PBT) other common mental disorders. 2 Figures above were calculated by subtracting the prevalence of facilities hosted at University College London Hospital adults with no psychiatric condition from 100. and Christie NHS Foundation Trust have been based Note: on the best available international information and a This table is an excerpt from Table 12.1 in Chapter 12 (Co-morbidity) market testing exercise. The approach taken has followed of the APMS 2007 report: the Treasury guidance to mitigate financial risk while http://www.ic.nhs.uk/pubs/psychiatricmorbidity07 Source: providing good value for money. The risk inherent in a Adult Psychiatric Morbidity (APMS) Survey 2007. project of this size and complexity has to be balanced against the loss of potential benefits to patients by not Dementia providing this treatment. Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for Health The modelling to demonstrate the benefits of PBT what steps he is taking to review the usefulness of the used the best available alternatives currently offered as a cognitive assessment tools available to GPs to help comparator, including intensity modulated radiation them decide whether to refer a patient to a memory therapy (IMRT), if it was clinically indicated. PBT is service. [128948] fundamentally different to other forms of radiotherapy (including IMRT, stereotactic ablative radiotherapy and Norman Lamb: Guidance on cognitive assessment radiosurgery) in that the treatment beam can be focused tools to support the diagnosis of dementia will be deep within the body to an accuracy of less than one published shortly. millimetre. This makes it particularly suitable for the treatment of tumours close to vital organs, especially in Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for Health small children. The best expert evidence available has how many people with dementia (a) in total and (b) in suggested that the benefit PBT will have over conventional each primary care trust area were offered planned radiotherapy for the tumour sites we have considered is admissions to acute hospitals for routine operations in unlikely to reduce, even with developments that are the last year for which figures are available. [129060] currently in the pipeline. Some countries, including Germany and Japan, have investigated using heavy ions Norman Lamb: Information on how many people as a form of radiotherapy. This approach uses PBT with dementia in each primary care trust area were accelerator technology, but is still in the experimental offered planned admissions to acute hospitals for routine stage. The NHS has not considered investing in this operations is not collected centrally. technology as the results are currently mixed. Benefits of heavy ion technology would be for a different group Disclosure of Information of patients. Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what protection his Department provides to whistleblowers. Death [128505]

Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Dr Poulter: The Department is committed to achieving what the incidence of morbidity in people under the the highest possible standards of service and ethical standards in public life. age of 65 was in each of the last 10 years. [128678] The Department’s whistleblowing policy covers handling concerns raised by staff against any breach of the Civil Norman Lamb: The information is not held in the Service Code and concerns raised with the Department format requested. However, the following table shows about external organisations or individuals involved in the estimated prevalence of adults living in private the conduct of our business. households in England having at least one psychiatric condition1. A copy of the Department’s most recent whistleblowing policy document: ‘Whistleblowing Policy and Process’ Adults meeting the criteria for, (Published: May 2009 Updated: September 2010), has or screening positive for, one or already been placed in the Library. Age range more psychiatric condition1, 2 Health Services: South West 16-24 32.3 25-34 30.0 Mr Bradshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for 35-44 22.9 Health pursuant to the contribution of the Parliamentary 45-54 25.0 Under-Secretary of State for Health of 7 November 55-64 18.7 2012, Official Report, column 250WH, on regional pay 65-74 12.7 (NHS), when (a) officials and (b) Ministers in his 75+ 10.5 Department were first made aware of the south-west Percentage all 23.0 consortium; and how they responded. [128498] 513W Written Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 514W

Dr Poulter: Officials and Ministers in the Department Anna Soubry: The Department has no plans to identify first became aware of the South West Consortium when separately patients with pancreatic cancer in the statistics the Health Service Journal broke the story on 25 May 2012. on waiting times for suspected and diagnosed cancer Under reforms suggested by the previous Government, patients. all employers, including those in the South West, have The publication of these statistics is managed in line the freedom to determine the terms and conditions, with the United Kingdom Statistics Authority’s Code including pay, of the staff they employ. The current of Practice for Official Statistics. An assessment of the Government supports the use of national terms and quality of the data used to create these statistics and the conditions for national health service staff. Agenda For risk of patient disclosure was carried out prior to finalising Change must remain fit for purpose in the best intent of the current format. This assessment concluded that due protecting NHS jobs and looking after patients. to potential for error in clinical coding within the patient records and small numbers of patients in some areas Hip Replacements there was a risk of misrepresentation or disclosure of patient identities if all tumour types were published separately. Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many hip replacements were performed in England Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health and Wales on people aged (a) 20 to 30, (b) 31 to 40 and what steps he is taking to reduce the number of times a (c) over 50 years old in the last five years. [128500] patient with pancreatic cancer needs to see their GP before being diagnosed. [127384] Anna Soubry: The information is shown in the following table: Anna Soubry: We are working to ensure that all Finished consultant episodes with a main or. secondary operative patients with symptoms of suspected cancer, including procedure of hip replacement by age groups 20 to 30, 31 to 40 and over pancreatic cancer, can be referred appropriately after 50 for the years 2007-08 to 2011-12. Activity in English NHS hospitals seeing a general practitioner (GP). To achieve this we and English commissioned activity in the independent sector have provided more than £450 million over the spending Age groups review period to improve GP access to key diagnostic 20 to 30 31 to 40 Over 50 tests; support campaigns to raise public awareness of the signs and symptoms of cancer and to encourage 2007-08 324 994 86,831 people to visit their GP when they have persistent 2008-09 331 921 90,076 symptoms; to support GPs in making decisions to refer; 2009-10 371 912 90,544 and to pay for more treatment and testing in secondary 2010-11 363 1,003 95,492 care. 2011-12 392 1,069 99,120 We know that some types of cancer can be difficult Note: A finished consultant episode (FCE) is a continuous period of admitted diagnose, often because their symptoms are shared with patient care under one consultant within one health care provider. more common, benign conditions. In January, we are FCEs are counted against the year in which they end. Figures do not planning to pilot a general symptom awareness campaign represent the number of different patients, as a person may have more that will be relevant to a range of cancers, including than one episode of care within the same stay in hospital or in pancreatic cancer. The campaign will encourage people different stays in the same year. Source: with relevant symptoms to go to their GP and we will be Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information working with primary care in the pilot sites to agree Centre appropriate referral pathways.

Obesity Pay

Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for how many employees in his Department are paid in Health how much the NHS has spent on purchasing excess of (a) £80,000 and (b) £100,000. [128941] ambulance stretchers for obese patients in each of the last five years; and how much the NHS has spent on Dr Poulter: As at 16 November 2012, 98 civil servants (a) purchasing specialist equipment in hospital wards in the Department have a salary in excess of £80,000. Of for obese patients, (b) making adjustments to these, 38 have salaries in excess of £100,000. ambulance vehicles and (c) buying new ambulances The data refers to the basic salary paid to civil for obese patients in each year since 1997. [128419] servants and does not include allowances, bonuses or overtime payments. The data includes part time civil Dr Poulter: I refer the hon. Member to the written servants whose pro rata salary is in excess of £80,000. answer given on 2 July 2012, Official Report, column 524W. Prescriptions

Pancreatic Cancer Dr Phillip Lee: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will estimate the cost of dispensing, excluding the cost of the drugs, by (a) pharmacies and (b) GP Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if practices. [129028] he will make it his policy to record statistics related to pancreatic cancer referral for suspected cancer and Norman Lamb: The funding agreement for 2011-12, waiting times for treatment separately from other for community pharmacies in England to provide essential upper gastro-intestinal cancers. [127383] and advanced services under the community pharmacy 515W Written Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 516W contractual framework (CPCF) totalled £2.526 billion. HOME DEPARTMENT The CPCF and the funding agreement both recognise that pharmacy contractors are expected to provide a Asylum: Finance wider range of services than just dispensing and the agreement is delivered through a combination of fees and allowances and retained medicines margin. Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many asylum applicants Identifiable dispensing funding provided to general received support under section 4 of the Immigration practitioner (GP) practices in England in 2011-12 comprised and Asylum Act 1999 in the latest period for which £162.4 million of fees paid to GPs for dispensing and figures are available; and if she will make a statement. personally administering prescription items, and £5.3 million [128015] in respect of the Dispensing Services Quality Scheme for dispensing GPs. Mr Harper: During the second quarter of 2012 there Both these answers exclude the cost of the drugs were 1,067 grants of support under section 4 of the provided as part of dispensing services. Immigration and Asylum Act 1999. The total number receiving support under section 4 as at the end of second quarter of 2012 was 2,360. South London Healthcare NHS Trust The number of grants of asylum support under section 4 and the total number supported under section 4 Heidi Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 are published Health with reference to the draft report of the Special on a quarterly basis. Latest figures are available in Table Administrator to the South London Healthcare Trust as.18.q of the release ’Immigration Statistics, April to published on 29 October 2012, what variables were June 2012’ which is available from the Library of the included in the resource distribution formula used to House and from the Home Office Science website: calculate the projected funding allocations for clinical http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research- commissioning groups. [129024] statistics/research-statistics/immigration-asylum-research/ immigration-q2-2012/ Dr Poulter: The Trust Special Administrator’s report to the South London Healthcare Trust is based on Asylum: North Korea locally made assumptions for projected funding allocations for commissioning groups. Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home The actual allocation of resources to clinical Department how many asylum applications were received commissioning groups (CCGs) is a matter for the NHS from North Koreans in each year since 2008; and how Commissioning Board. As set out in the mandate to the many such applications were (a) granted and (b) refused. board, the Government expects the principle of ensuring [128379] equal access for equal need to be at the heart of the board’s approach to allocating budgets. Mr Harper [holding answer 13 November 2012]: The The methodology used to determine the 2013-14 following table shows the number of asylum applications CCG allocations will be announced by the board alongside from North Koreans in each year since 2008, and of the 2013-14 allocations by the end of the year. those, the number of grants and refusals. North Korea: Asylum applications received, granted and refused Heidi Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for Applications Granted Refused Health what budget his Department has provided for Year of received from asylum, HP or asylum, HP or 1, 2 1, 2 funding for staffing, consultancy, consultation and application main applicants DL DL other costs for the South London Healthcare Trust 2008 184 59 95 Special Administrator in 2012-13. [129039] 2009 35 3 24 2010 35 6 27 Anna Soubry: Expenditure for this administration is 2011 20 1 15 expected to be small compared to the cost savings and 1 The year of outcome is not necessarily the same as the year of service quality improvements that are expected to follow application. in the future. At the time the regime was enacted in July, 2 Excludes decisions outstanding. Key: the trust was spending around £l million per week more HP = Humanitarian Protection than it had. This means that vital resources are being DL = Discretionary Leave diverted away from other parts of the national health Note: service, the size of the financial challenge is significant. These figures are based on the outcome analysis of asylum applications, In 2011-12, the trust incurred the largest financial deficit as at May 2011. across all NHS providers nationally, at over £65 million. The outcome analysis of asylum applications are Since its formation in 2009, the trust has generated a published on an annual basis. total financial deficit of £154 million and is forecast to Latest figures are available in Table as.06 of the have an accumulated deficit of £207 million by the end release ‘Immigration Statistics, April to June 2012’ which of March 2013. is available from the Library of the House and from the The budget the Department has identified for the Home Office Science website: Trust Special Administrator (TSA) to operate the regime http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research- for unsustainable NHS providers for South London statistics/research-statistics/immigration-asylum-research/ Healthcare NHS Trust is £4 million. immigration-q2-2012/ 517W Written Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 518W

Deportation: Democratic Republic of Congo Highly skilled individuals who are eligible for other categories may also apply for those. Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for the Data relating to visas granted by category are published Home Department whether she has taken steps to monitor in table ‘be.04.q’ of the Home Office statistical release the treatment of failed asylum seekers who have been ‘Immigration Statistics’, available from the Library of returned to the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) the House and from the Home Office Science website: after they have passed through immigration control in http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research- the DRC. [128228] statistics/research-statistics/immigration-asylum-research/ immigration-q2-2012/ Mr Harper: The UK Border Agency does not routinely Human Trafficking monitor the treatment of failed asylum seekers who return to the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). They are, by definition, foreign nationals who have been Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for the found as a matter of law not to need the UK’s protection Home Department whether the UK Border Agency and it would be inconsistent with that finding for the has considered making data available on the number UK to assume an ongoing responsibility for them when of known or suspected cases of human trafficking they return to the DRC. identified at UK borders. [128543] Mr Harper: The Serious Organised Crime Agency Entry Clearances (SOCA) holds responsibility for the central UK wide retention and collation of information in relation to Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for the trafficking and it currently makes some data available Home Department pursuant to the answer of 25 October publicly. 2012, Official Report, column 989W,on embassies, which Potential victims of trafficking are referred to the countries are processed through Manila; and how many National Referral Mechanism (NRM), which is the applications were dealt with for each country in the last UK’s multi-agency framework to help to identify and year for which figures are available. [126384] support victims. A breakdown of UK Border Agency (UKBA) and Border Force referrals is published on the Mr Harper: The countries processed through Manila SOCA website. This currently cannot be split between and the number of applications dealt with for each UKBA and Border Force. country in the last year from July 2011 to June 2012 are listed in the following table: Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what proportion of frontline UK Number Border Agency staff are trained to identify suspected Australia 23,714 cases of human trafficking. [128545] Brunei 2,031 China 14,913 Mr Harper: Two e-learning human trafficking training Japan 10,810 packages have been developed for UK Border Agency Korea 7,994 and Border Force staff. Both of these are mandatory for all frontline officers and help staff identify those who Malaysia 3,290 might have been trafficked and understand the steps New Zealand 5,714 that should be taken to safeguard possible victims. Philippines 35,679 Singapore 10,576 Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for the Taiwan (China) 4,248 Home Department what assessment she has made of Exempt from biometrics 4,008 the role of the e-Borders programme in tackling human Total 123,167 trafficking. [128546]

Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Harper: The e-Borders programme is a fully the Home Department how many visas for applicants operational system which is currently tracking around for exceptional talent were issued in each of the last 55% of inbound and 60% of outbound passenger and two years. [127787] crew movements; this equates to approximately 138 million passenger movements a year on over 4,200 routes, including Mr Harper: The new tier 1 (Exceptional talent) category all aviation routes starting outside the EEA. opened on 9 August 2011. The e-Borders programme is enabling us to collect The information requested is given in the following travel data from carriers about passengers intending to table: travel to or from the UK. Analysis of the data enables us to identify and target in advance those people known Table be.04.q: Entry clearance visas issued by category: Tier 1 to pose a threat, including human traffickers. —Exceptional Talent 2011 2012 Immigrants: Detainees Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 Q1 Q2

Main n/a n/a 1 6 14 11 Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for applicant the Home Department how many individuals were Dependant n/a n/a 0031detained under the detained fast track process in the Source: latest period for which figures are available; and if she Table be.04.q, Immigration Statistics April—June 2012, Home Office will make a statement. [128699] 519W Written Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 520W

Mr Harper [holding answer 20 November 2012]: 2,118 Members: Correspondence principal applicants were accepted onto the Fast Track process in 2011. Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for The number of applicants accepted onto the fast the Home Department when she plans to answer the track process is published on ah annual basis. The latest letter sent to the Minister of Immigration by the right figures are available in Tables as.11 and as.12 of the hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton on 2 October release ‘Immigration Statistics, April to June 2012’ which 2012 with regard to Mr Waqar Aziz. [128539] is available from the Library of the House and from the Home Office Science website: Mr Harper: I wrote to the right hon. Member about http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research- this case on 16 November 2012. statistics/research-statistics/immigration-asylum-research/ immigration-q2-2012/ National Wildlife Crime Unit

Immigration Controls Gordon Birtwistle: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) what plans she has for the Mr Woodward: To ask the Secretary of State for the future of the National Wildlife Crime Unit after March Home Department what the average time taken to 2013; [128622] process a request to reconsider a decision made on an (2) what plans she has for the funding of the National application for indefinite leave to remain was in each of Wildlife Crime Unit after March 2013. [128569] the last five years. [127456] Mr Jeremy Browne: Decisions on Government funding Mr Harper: Where an individual is refused indefinite and plans for the future of the National Wildlife Crime leave to remain in the United Kingdom a right of Unit beyond March 2013 will be taken by Ministers appeal is triggered. For this reason the UK Border later this year. Agency (UKBA) does not routinely reconsider cases. As reconsideration is not identified as a specific case Offences against Children type on UKBA databases, the requested statistical data are not available. Meg Munn: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if she will consider extending inquiries Immigration: Somalia into child abuse to cover abuse of children within religious organisations. [127710]

Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Jeremy Browne: Although we do not rule out the Home Department how many citizens of Somalia taking further steps this needs to be balanced against have been (a) granted and (b) denied entry to the UK the need to let the police and others involved in current in each of the last five years. [128392] inquiries to get on with the task of establishing the facts and, in the case of police investigations, seeing whether Mr Harper: The following table provides the total there are any criminal charges that need to be brought. number of Somali nationals given (a) leave to enter the We do not want any further inquiries or investigations UK and (b) initially refused entry to the UK from 2007 to get in the way of that vital work. to 2011. If anyone has any information about abuse, past or Passengers given leave to enter the United Kingdom and initially present, then they should report it to their local police refused entry by nationality: Somalia force so that it can be properly investigated. Total admissions (Number of Total initial refusals Prostitution journeys) at port 2007 3,240 92 Gavin Shuker: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2008 3,010 93 Home Department how many offenders were charged 2009 3,400 101 with soliciting in 2011; and what penalties were imposed 2010 2,760 102 on them. [128113] 2011 2,030 50 Note: Jeremy Wright: I have been asked to reply on behalf Statistics on passengers given leave to enter are rounded to the nearest of the Ministry of Justice. 5 and may include the same individuals more than once if they visited the UK on multiple occasions in the period. The number of defendants proceeded against at Source: magistrates courts during 2011 for offences of soliciting, Tables ad.03 and be.08 ’Immigration Statistics April to June 2012’ together with the type of sentence received at all courts Data on passengers given leave to enter the UK and in England and Wales can be viewed in the following persons initially refused entry to the UK by nationality table. are published in tables ’ad.03’ and ’be.08’ respectively of The maximum sentence available for ‘Soliciting another the quarterly Home Office statistical release ’Immigration for the purpose of obtaining their sexual services as a Statistics’, available from the Library of the House and prostitute in a street or public place’ under S.51A of the Home Office’s Science, Research and Statistics website Sexual Offences Act 2003 is a fine up to level 3 on the at: standard scale (£1,000). http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/science-research/research- Charging data are not collated centrally and therefore statistics/migration/migration-statistics1/ proceedings data have been provided in lieu. 521W Written Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 522W

Defendants1 proceeded against for offences of soliciting2 at magistrates courts in 2011 and found guilty at all courts in England and Wales, by type of sentence received—England and Wales Proceeded Proceedings Found Community Conditional Otherwise Offence against discontinued Withdrawn guilty sentence discharge Fine dealt with3

Solicit another for 42 2 11 29 1 8 19 1 the purpose of obtaining their sexual services as a prostitute in a street/public place 1 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 2 The Sexual Offences Act 2003 has been amended by section 19 of the Policing and Crime Act 2009 to create an offence of soliciting a person in a street or public place for the purpose of obtaining sexual services from a prostitute. This can include a person soliciting from a vehicle in a street or public place and replaces the offences of kerb crawling and persistent soliciting found in the Sexual Offences Act 1985. Commencement date 1 April 2010. 3 The category Otherwise Dealt With (ODW) includes: one day in police cells; disqualification order; restraining order; confiscation order; travel restriction order; disqualification from driving; hospital order; recommendation for deportation; and other miscellaneous disposals. Note: Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services within the Ministry of Justice

UK Border Agency The Government has committed to providing the Procedure Committee with information relating to written Ian Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for the parliamentary question performance on a sessional basis Home Department what recent steps she has taken to and will provide full information to the Committee at ensure that applicants to the UK Border Agency are the end of the current Session. Statistics relating to performance for the 2010-12 parliamentary Session are given correct advice. [126811] available on the Parliament website as follows: http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/ Mr Harper [holding answer 6 November 2012]: The procedure/P35_Memorandum_Leader_of_the_House_ UK Border Agency strives to ensure that the information Monitoring_PQs.pdf provided to applicants is correct and up to date. The UK Border Agency website gives standardised information on all the services which the Agency provides INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT and this is regularly updated to ensure that the latest Bangladesh guidance is available. Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for International Ian Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for the Development pursuant to the answer of 6 November Home Department what recent estimate she has made 2012, Official Report, column 601W, on Bangladesh, if of the value of compensation paid by the UK Border she will publish a copy of each random audit undertaken Agency to applicants following incorrect advice given on joint recipients. [128797] to applicants in each of the last three years. [126930] Mr Duncan: Parts of the 70 audits for sub-grants are Mr Harper [holding answer 6 November 2012]: The commercially sensitive. While it would be disproportionate information is not held in the form requested and could cost to provide redacted copies of all of the reports, I be obtained only at disproportionate cost. will deposit a cross section of 10 redacted reports in the Library in due course. Written Questions Developing Countries: Land

Heather Wheeler: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the International Development what discussions officials in Home Department how many written parliamentary her Department have had with the World Bank Group questions to her Department received a substantive on the need to review their policies for the governance answer (a) within five working days, (b) between and transparency of any investments involving or enabling six and 10 working days and (c) after more than agricultural large-scale land acquisitions. [128455] 10 working days in the last 12 months for which figures are available. [127273] Mr Duncan: Officials from my Department meet frequently with the World Bank Group on a range of Mr Harper: In the period between 1 November 2011 issues. The Government recognises the need for good and 31 October 2012 the Home Office gave substantive governance and transparency in investments involving answers to (a) 1,476 parliamentary questions (PQs) large-scale land acquisitions. We continue to. discuss within five working days, (b) 1,206 PQs between six with non-government organisations how investments and 10 working days and (c) 844 PQs after more than can protect the legitimate rights of local people and not 10 working days. to undermine local food security. 523W Written Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 524W

When done well, commercial investments in agriculture completion rates were under Millennium Development have the potential to be transformational, but it is vital Goal 2 in each year since 2000. [129094] that the rights and interests of the people living on the land are taken into account. Lynne Featherstone: The following table, sourced from the UNESCO Institute for Statistics, shows the latest Developing Countries: Primary Education year for which these data are available (2010). The indicator for the global primary school completion rate Debbie Abrahams: To ask the Secretary of State for is defined as: gross intake ratio to the last grade of International Development what the global primary school primary education.

Percentage 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010

Female 77.9 79.3 80.8 81.5 83.1 84.1 84.5 84.9 86.9 87.7 88.5 89.4 Male 84.0 85.2 86.0 86.6 86.8 87.9 88.3 88.5 90.0 90.0 90.7 91.2 Total 81.0 82.3 83.5 84.1 85.0 86.0 86.5 86.7 88.5 88.9 89.6 90.3

Fiji Somaliland

Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what funding her Department International Development what funding her Department has allocated to Fiji in each of the last five years. provided to Somaliland in 2011-12. [128391] [128400] Justine Greening: The Department for International Development (DFID) does not compile formal aid Mr Duncan: DFID does not have a bilateral programme expenditure statistics broken down at sub-national level. with Fiji. The UK does however provide assistance UK bilateral aid expenditure (in thousands) to Somalia through our attributable contributions to multilateral (including Somaliland) for 2011-12 was £101,483. development organisations and global programmes that benefit a number of countries. Information on the amount of UK aid provided to Fiji for each of the last Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for five years can be found in table 14.5 of Statistics on International Development how many officials of her International Development (SID): Department are currently stationed in Somaliland. [128393] http://www.dfid.gov.uk/Documents/publications1/sid2012/ Table14.5-Pacific.xls Justine Greening: The Department for International Development does not publish the numbers of staff in Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for each country where we operate, as this may represent a International Development what steps her Department security risk, especially to our staff serving in hostile is taking to promote good governance in Fiji. [128402] environments or fragile states.

Mr Duncan: DFID does not have a bilateral programme with Fiji. DFID does however provide support to Fiji through three multi-country programmes funded under JUSTICE DFID’s Governance and Transparency Fund (GTF), a one-off fund created to help citizens hold their Governments Corruption to account. These programmes aim to increase government accountability, improve standards of governance and transparency, and strengthen budget-making processes. Mr Tom Clarke: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what progress the Government has made on appointing a new anti-corruption champion. [128070] Pay Jeremy Wright: I refer the right hon. Member to the Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for International answer given by the Prime Minister on 30 October Development how many employees in her Department 2012, Official Report, column 166W.The Minister without are paid in excess of (a) £80,000 and (b) £100,000. Portfolio, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member [128942] for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), is the international anti- corruption champion. Mr Duncan: The following table gives the number of employees in DFID with a full-time equivalent salary of Criminal Injuries Compensation (a) between £80,000 and £100,000 and (b) over £100,000. Nick Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Salary range Number of employees what the average time taken to process criminal injury £80,000 to £100,000 13 compensation claims is; what the target time for processing such claims is; and when he expects that claim reference Over £100,000 7 X/12/304992 will be determined. [128017] 525W Written Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 526W

Mrs Grant: The average time taken to first decision an important part of planning ahead for any future loss was 8.2 months, as at the end of October. To ensure the of mental capacity, and supervision of court-appointed Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority’s application deputies. The OPG is also contributing to the efforts of of the Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme is as the financial services industry to make the sector more robust as possible all applicants can ask for a review of dementia friendly, focusing on enabling high street bank their case if they are unhappy with the decision. The and building society staff to recognise and understand average time to review decision was 4.8 months, as at Enduring and Lasting Powers of Attorney and court- the end of October. If the applicant remains unhappy appointed deputies. In prisons, work is already under after the review they can appeal to the first-tier tribunal. way to improve staff awareness and capacity. NOMS The Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority do has published specific guidance to staff on dementia, not have a specific target for the time taken to process and is working to identify examples of good practice. individual claims, because of the wide variety of cases For better research—A number of UK prisons are they deal with. They do, however, monitor the average taking part in independent international research which time taken to first and review decisions and have a is under way to identify treatment challenges and prisoners performance range which they aim to achieve. This is with dementia. between 7.5 and 8.5 months to first decision and between five and six months to review decision. The Criminal Fines Injuries Compensation Authority are resolving more cases, more quickly than ever before. Since 2007 the average time to decide a case has nearly halved. Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) how many fines were levied in each of the Please contact the Criminal Injuries Compensation following value bands (a) up to £100, (b) £101 to £500, Authority directly if you wish to discuss an individual (c) £501 to £1,000, (d) £1,001 to £2,500, (e) £2,501 to case as Ministers cannot intervene in cases. £5,000 and (f) more than £5,000; [125643] Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (2) what the average value of fine levied in each of (1) if he will place in the Library a draft of the Criminal the last five years was; [125644] Injuries Compensation Scheme Hardship Fund before (3) what the total value of fines levied by the courts the end of November 2012; [129029] in England and Wales was in each of the last five years. (2) when he plans to make a statement setting out the [125645] details of the Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme Hardship Fund. [129030] Jeremy Wright: The number of defendants sentenced to a fine and the value bands of the fine levied at all Mrs Grant: Yes I will place in the Library a draft of courts in England and Wales in 2011 can be viewed in the Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme Hardship Table 1. Fund before the end of November 2012. I will issue a The average value of fines levied and the total value written ministerial statement in the House setting out of fines levied at all courts in England and Wales from the details of the Hardship Fund by the end of the 2007 to 2011 can be viewed in the Table 2. month. Table 1: Defendants sentenced to a fine, the value bands of the fine levied at all courts in England and Wales, 20111,2 Dementia Defendants fined

Up to £100 321,435 Paul Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for £101 to £500 449,364 Justice what steps his Department is taking to support £501 to £1,000 78,507 the Prime Minister’s dementia challenge and the work £1,001 to £2,500 1,470 of each of the challenge groups; what resources he has committed and timescales he has set for this work; and £2,501 to £5,000 559 Over £5,000 272 if he will make a statement. [129044] Total 851,607 1 Jeremy Wright: For driving improvements in health The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons ″ for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they and care—July’s White Paper on social care Caring for were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or our future: reforming care and support″ sets out the more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is the Government’s aim to clarify the responsibility for providing most severe. social care to prisoners. My officials are working with 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate the Department of Health to develop, with stakeholders, and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by a new framework for provision of care in prisons. This the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken will include prisoners with dementia. For offenders in to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are the community, service entitlements for health and social taken into account when those data are used. care provision are in place as part of mainstream services. Source: Probation staff are able to support offenders to access Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice these services. Table 2: The total number of fine levied, the average value of fines levied and the total value of fines levied, at all courts in England and On creating dementia friendly communities that 1,2 understand how to help—The Ministry of Justice recently Wales, 2007-11 Total number Average value Total value of consulted on a range of measures aiming to make the of fine levied of fines (£) fines (£) Office of the Public Guardian’s (OPG) services as simple, speedy and accessible as possible. This includes making 2007 941,534 172 161,773,040 Lasting and Enduring Powers of Attorney, which are 20083 890,296 199 177,141,293 527W Written Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 528W

Table 2: The total number of fine levied, the average value of fines Sentencing: EU Nationals levied and the total value of fines levied, at all courts in England and Wales, 2007-111,2 Total number Average value Total value of Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State of fine levied of fines (£) fines (£) for Justice how many nationals of (a) the Republic of 2009 946,146 219 207,326,777 Ireland and (b) other EU countries excluding the UK 2010 893,931 223 199,139,609 were sentenced to imprisonment following conviction 2011 851,607 215 183,397,104 for a crime in the UK in each year since 1999. [124748] 1 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or Jeremy Wright: The Ministry of Justice Court more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is the Proceedings Database holds information on defendants most severe. proceeded against, found guilty and sentenced for criminal 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate offences in England and Wales. This database holds and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have information on offences provided by the statutes under been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken which proceedings are brought but not all the specific to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are circumstances of each case. taken into account when those data are used. It is therefore not possible to identify from this centrally 3 Excludes data for Cardiff magistrates court for April, July and August 2008. held information the nationality of offenders given a Source: custodial sentence following a conviction. Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice The following table provides data taken from the Legal Aid Scheme Ministry of Justice Prisons Reception Database, and shows the number of immediate custodial sentenced Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for receptions into prison establishments in England and Justice what form of identification is required to access Wales, from 2003 to 2011, for the requested nationalities. legal aid. [128975] Immediate custodial sentenced receptions into prison establishments by nationality status, England and Wales Jeremy Wright: Generally, in order to access legal Republic of Ireland EU countries2 aid, evidence of identity for the purpose of assessing 2003 875 1,168 the applicant’s means is required, subject to limited 2004 946 1,436 exceptions. Evidence will usually include items such as 2005 822 1,823 wage slips, state benefit notification letters, bank and building society statements, trading accounts and tax 2006 826 2,182 returns (for self employed individuals) and tenancy 2007 711 2,880 agreements. 2008 742 3,794 2009 689 4,804 There are certain criminal legal aid cases where for 20101 n/a n/a practical reasons it may not be possible to obtain documents 20113 736 5,808 prior to assessing eligibility. In these cases assurance n/a = Not available. checks are undertaken retrospectively. 1 Following the introduction and phased roll-out of a new case management system for prisons (prison-NOMIS) from May 2009, Magistrates’ Courts: West Yorkshire data collection issues emerged that affected the supply of data for statistical purposes. * not available. 2 Composition of European Union countries as at October 2012. Simon Reevell: To ask the Secretary of State for Figures exclude UK. Justice how many cases were commenced in the magistrates 3 Provisional pending the outcome of data quality work. courts in the West Yorkshire police area in (a) 2004 and Data Sources and Quality: (b) 2008. [128534] These figures have been drawn from administrative IT systems which, as with any large scale recording system, are subject to possible errors with data entry and processing. Jeremy Wright: The number of proceedings for criminal Source: offences in the magistrates courts in the West Yorkshire Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice police force area in 2004 was 103,855. The figure for 2008 was 75,148. Sick Leave Pay Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many days on average staff of his Department in how many employees in his Department are paid in each pay grade were absent from work as a result of ill excess of (a) £80,000 and (b) £100,000. [128939] health in each of the last 12 months. [125660] Jeremy Wright: As of 30 September 2012, there were 318 officials within the Ministry of Justice and its Jeremy Wright: The Ministry of Justice’s ill health agencies (including the National Offender Management absence data for the period requested are currently Service, Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service unavailable because of technical difficulties. Once these and Office of the Public Guardian) earning a full-time difficulties are rectified, which should be within the next equivalent salary in excess of £80,000 per annum. Of few weeks, I shall write to my hon. Friend with the these 318 officials, 68 were earning a full-time equivalent information and place a copy of the letter in the House salary in excess of £100,000 per annum. of Commons Library. 529W Written Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 530W

Young Offenders David Mundell: The Secretary of State for Scotland, the right hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Selkirk (Michael Moore), and I meet regularly with how many people entered the youth justice system for representatives from Scotland’s universities to discuss a the first time in (a) 2011 and (b) 2012. [127057] range of issues.

Jeremy Wright: The following table shows the number of juveniles (persons aged under 18) that entered the criminal justice system for the first time in 2011 and TRANSPORT 2012. Number of juvenile first time entrants to the criminal justice system1 in Employment Agencies England and Wales, 12 months ending March 2011 to 12 months ending March 2012 Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State Numbers of offenders for Transport what his policy is on the use of offshore 2011 45,910 employment companies in the supply of public sector 2012 36,677 workers in his Department and its associated public 1 Offenders recorded on the police national computer (PNC) by an bodies. [128737] English or Welsh police force as having received their first conviction, caution, reprimand or warning. Offences resulting in penalty notices Norman Baker: The Department’s policy is to only for disorder are not counted as first offences. use employment companies which are part of the Source: Police National Computer, Ministry of Justice Government Procurement Service Framework. There These figures are taken from the data in Table 7.2 in are no offshore companies on this list. ‘Criminal Justice Statistics Quarterly Update to March 2012’ which was published on 13 September 2012. The High Speed 2 Railway Line full report can be found at: http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/statistics/criminal- Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport justice-stats/criminal-justice-stats-march-2012.pdf if he will ask HS2 Ltd to publish feedback received by letter, email and telephone in local community fora; and if he will review the process for holding such fora. [129025] SCOTLAND Mr Simon Burns: HS2 Ltd set up community forums along the London-Birmingham high speed rail line of Unemployment route to provide an opportunity for local representatives to raise issues of importance to them and to review 9. Sheila Gilmore: To ask the Secretary of State for information updates on the project. The forums are Scotland what recent assessment he has made of meetings held on a bi-monthly cycle and are chaired by unemployment in Scotland. [128896] a local participant wherever practicable. HS2 Ltd keep the way the forums run under constant review. David Mundell: The UK Government works to help HS2 Ltd do not intend to publish individual items of individuals find long-term meaningful employment. It correspondence from local community forums, but all is of great concern that the latest Scottish figures show agendas and minutes of the forums are made publicly an increase in unemployment while it is falling in the available at: rest of the UK. This is why Scotland’s two governments need to work together for the benefit of Scotland. http://highspeedrail.dft.gov.uk/forums/community-forums Feedback from community forums will inform HS2’s Voluntary Sector design work, which will in turn be presented for public consultation in the draft Environmental Statement, providing the public with a chance to comment on 10. Mary Macleod: To ask the Secretary of State for whether they feel their comments have been taken into Scotland what recent discussions his Department has account. had with representatives of the voluntary sector in Scotland. [128897] Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what steps he has taken to ensure that the processes David Mundell: The Secretary of State for Scotland, being followed on High Speed 2 comply with the the right hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and requirements of the Aarhus Convention. [129026] Selkirk (Michael Moore), and I meet regularly with representatives from Scotland’s voluntary sector to discuss Mr Simon Burns: I recognise the requirements set out a range of issues. in the Aarhus Convention and how they apply to HS2. The Department and HS2 Ltd have actively considered Overseas Students these requirements as part of their work programme.

14. Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Scotland what discussions he has had with universities if he will publish all the reports prepared for his Department in Scotland on the effects of the Government’s immigration by Arup on options for a high speed railway in the last policy on overseas student numbers. [128902] five years. [129027] 531W Written Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 532W

Mr Simon Burns: Reports from contractors on route Severn River Crossing: Tolls options for HS2 are routinely published on the Department’s website once they have been considered Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for and approved by the Secretary of State. They are available Transport at what level the tolls for use of the Severn at the following address: bridges will be set from January 2013. [128944] http://www.dft.gov.uk/topics/high-speed-rail Some older reports have been archived and are available Stephen Hammond: The tolls on the Severn Crossings at: are amended each year in accordance with the rules set out in the Severn Bridges Act 1992. Every year the tolls www.nationalarchives.gov.uk are calculated from the September Retail Prices Index figure and then rounded to the nearest 10p. The toll levels from 1 January 2013 will be: Roads: Accidents Category 1: Cars and motor caravans—£6.20 (£6.00 in 2012) Category 2: Small goods vehicles and small buses—£12.40 Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for (£12.10 in 2012) Transport (1) how many collisions involving cars and Category 3: Heavy goods vehicles and buses—£18.60 (£18.10 HGVs on roads with speed limits of 60mph involved a in 2012) car overtaking a HGV and colliding with an oncoming The tolls levels will be confirmed in an Order made vehicle in the last 12 months; and what assessment he by the Secretary of State for Transport, my right hon. has made of the severity of such crashes; [128571] Friend the Member for Derbyshire Dales (Mr McLoughlin), (2) if he will estimate how many crashes there have in December. been between cars and HGVs on roads with a speed limit of 60mph in the last five years. [128615] TREASURY Stephen Hammond: Information is provided in the following table on the reported number of personal Child Benefit injury accidents on single carriageway roads with 60 mph speed limits which involved at least one car and Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Chancellor of the one HGV across each of the last five years. Exchequer pursuant to the answer of 9 November Reported number of personal injury accidents on single carriageway 2012, Official Report, column 784W, on child benefit, roads with 60 mph speed limits involving cars/HGVs: 2007-11 for what reason the number of child benefit claims Number of accidents under EC Regulations is not available; and if he will Number of collisions make a statement. [128591] involving at least one All collisions car and one HGV involving all vehicles Mr Gauke: Information about the total number of child benefit claims received under the EC Regulations 2007 514 28,575 is not available because there is no business need to 2008 443 25,288 collect that data. HM Revenue and Customs does keep 2009 315 23,263 a record of child benefit claims made under the EC 2010 332 20,895 Regulations which are successful and this information 2011 267 19,855 is used for monitoring purposes and identifying cases Source: for an annual review of entitlement. STATS19 Police Data, Department for Transport Information on the reported number of personal ICT injury accidents in 2011 on single carriageway roads with 60 mph speed limits which involved at least one car Mr Streeter: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer overtaking any moving vehicle is provided in the following if he will instruct his Department to instal a digital table. The table also includes information on the number display outside his Department’s Whitehall building of people killed or seriously injured as a result of these showing the current (a) level of public debt, (b) collisions. relevant annual interest payment and (c) the annual budget deficit. [128170] Reported number of personal injury accidents and subsequent casualties on single carriageway roads with 60 mph limits involving at least one car overtaking a moving vehicle: Great Britain 2011 Sajid Javid: There is no intention to instal a digital Number of accidents/casualties display outside the HM Treasury building on Horse Number of Number of Guards Road. However, the Budget Red Book clearly Total number of casualties casualties displays the level of debt and the deficit and that the collisions killed seriously injured Government has cut the deficit in the past two years. 2011 998 49 288 PAYE Source: STATS19 Police Data, Department for Transport Stephen Timms: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Information about what type of vehicle was overtaken what recent assessment he has made of the preparedness is not collected so it is impossible to state how many of of employers who (a) employ more than 5,000 employees these collisions involved a car overtaking an HGV. In and (b) employ fewer than 5,000 employees for the addition, it is not possible to determine whether the planned introduction of PAYE Real Time Information resulting collision was with an oncoming vehicle. in April 2013; and if he will make a statement. [129092] 533W Written Answers21 NOVEMBER 2012 Written Answers 534W

Mr Gauke: HMRC has 1,148 very large employer Stephen Timms: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer schemes with over 5,000 employees. Over the past few for what reason he has required normal working hours months each of these schemes has been contacted either be collected with PAYE Real Time Information; what by their HMRC customer relationship manager or by the specification is of the information employers should their payroll software provider or bureau to ensure provide on such data; whether such data will be used for readiness for reporting PAYE in real time and agree a purpose related to universal credit; and if he will make individual start dates. a statement. [129101] 40 of the very large schemes have already joined RTI Mr Gauke: The hours worked reported under Real in stage 1 or 2 of the pilot and another 248 are scheduled Time Information will be used for tax credit compliance to join in stage 3 which started on 6 November and runs activity and from April 2014 HMRC will use RTI as until the end of March 2013. part of the process for renewing tax credits claims. HMRC tracks RTI awareness and preparedness, of Employers will be required to report how many hours employers with fewer than 5,000 employees, via a two- their employee is normally expected to work in a week. monthly RTI awareness survey. If the hours vary from week to week they will be The findings from this awareness work suggest that expected to indicate what they consider is the employee’s RTI awareness and preparedness is on track. normal number of paid hours. The hours worked will be reported in four different bands: Stephen Timms: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer A—Up to 15.99 hours how many providers of payroll software have (a) made B—16 to 29.99 hours representations to his Department about PAYE Real C—30 hours or more Time Information and (b) been recognised by his D—Other eg occupational pensioners Department as providers of software for PAYE Real Time Information. [129102] The Department for Work and Pensions do not currently envisage using hours worked data for calculating universal Mr Gauke: HMRC actively consulted on RTI with credit (UC). employers, the payroll industry and software providers Pensions and will continue to do so. Debbie Abrahams: To ask the Chancellor of the HMRC are aware of around 270 software developers Exchequer (1) what assessment he has made of the (a) actively developing an RTI solution. benefits and (b) disadvantages of people in ill health HMRC offers PAYE software developers a form of who choose to (i) use pension income drawdown and accreditation called PAYE Recognition. Products that (ii) purchase an annuity; [128642] pass PAYE Recognition are listed on HMRC’s website. (2) what consideration he has given to altering the 40 software developers have requested HMRC recognition rules on pensions income drawdown for people in ill for RTI enabled products to date and 31 developers health who are unlikely to reach average age. [128643] have completed the process. Software developers are not required to seek PAYE Sajid Javid: The Government has taken action to Recognition and HMRC do not suggest that a non- ensure the rules on pensions income drawdown provide recognised product is in any way inferior. It is a commercial individuals with flexibility to make arrangements that decision for a software developer to seek recognition suit their circumstances and preferences, for example by from HMRC. HMRC recognition provides assurance removing the requirement for individuals aged 75 and to the customer that the commercial products recognised over to purchase an annuity from 2011-12. As with all by HMRC, and listed on their website, have successfully areas of the tax system, we keep these rules under review. demonstrated the ability to: People approaching retirement do not need to purchase file a valid RTI return, and an annuity from their existing pension provider and can retrieve national insurance number verifications online. shop around on the open market. Shopping around and Products that provide a level of payroll functionality exercising the right to take an ’open market option’ can also have to satisfy a range of general payroll tests. significantly increase an individual’s retirement income. This might include considering alternative types of annuity, including ’enhanced’ or ’impaired’ annuities which can Stephen Timms: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer take account of an individual’s health and/or lifestyle. if he will estimate the number of employees served by The choice between different annuity types will depend PAYEsystems provided by suppliers who are not registered on the individual policyholder’s preferences. by HM Revenue and Customs for Real Time Information; and if he will make a statement. [129103] Staff

Mr Gauke: HMRC estimate that approximately two Nicholas Soames: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer thirds of employees and pensioners PAYE information what the level of turnover is for officials in his Department; is submitted using software produced by developers and if he will make a statement. [129032] who have not yet joined the RTI pilot. This represents Sajid Javid: The annualised turnover rate for HM approximately 26 million employments. This figure will Treasury between April 2012 to September 2012 (excluding reduce as more software developers join the pilot. the transfer of the Performance and Reform Unit to the All PAYE software developers registered with HMRC Cabinet Office) was 22%. This compares with 25% during receive regular updates, support and guidance on RTI the same period in 2011 (excluding the transfer of staff changes and access to the RTI test services. on the formation of Office of Budget Responsibility).

5MC Ministerial Corrections21 NOVEMBER 2012 Ministerial Corrections 6MC Ministerial Correction The full answer given was as follows: Mr Duncan: UK funding through the Helmand Wednesday 21 November 2012 Provincial Reconstruction Team (PRT) has built 11 health clinics and seven schools since 2007, with two of each currently under construction. The Helmand provincial education and health departments are responsible for INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT the future of these facilities. They have stated that all are open and active and that they intend to maintain Afghanistan these services in the future. The UK-led PRT is in regular contact with the Afghan Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for International Government, in Helmand and Kabul, to ensure that Development (1) how many (a) schools and (b) clinics adequate funding is provided for future operation and have been financed and constructed by the UK Government maintenance of these services. in Helmand Province in Afghanistan; how many such The correct answer should have been: schools and clinics (i) have been closed and (ii) she expects to close; and if she will make a statement; Mr Duncan: Twelve health facilities and 28 schools have [122514] been built, are in the process of being built or have been (2) what discussions she has had with the Government refurbished since 2007. The Helmand provincial education of Afghanistan on identifying future sources of funding and health departments are responsible for the future of for schools and clinics in Helmand Province; and if she these facilities. They have stated that all are open and active and that they intend to maintain these services in will make a statement. [122515] the future. [Official Report, 19 October 2012, Vol. 551, c. 472-3W.] The UK-led Provincial Reconstruction Team (PRT) Letter of correction from Alan Duncan: is in regular contact with the Afghan Government, in An error has been identified in the written answer Helmand and Kabul, to ensure that adequate funding is given to the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) on provided for future operation and maintenance of these 19 October 2012. services.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 21 November 2012

Col. No. Col. No. PRIME MINISTER ...... 570 SCOTLAND—continued Central Ayrshire...... 575 Independence (Jobs) ...... 561 Engagements...... 570 Independence Referendum...... 566 Engagements...... 576 Independence Referendum (Electoral Commission)...... 562 SCOTLAND...... 561 NATO...... 567 Businesses ...... 564 Superfast Broadband ...... 569 Economy...... 568 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 21 November 2012

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 32WS TRANSPORT ...... 34WS Local Government Finance ...... 32WS Parliamentary Written Question (Correction)...... 34WS

INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 33WS TREASURY ...... 31WS Hurricane Sandy (Haiti and Cuba) ...... 33WS ECOFIN...... 31WS PETITIONS

Wednesday 21 November 2012

Col. No. Col. No. PRESENTED PETITION...... 7P TRANSPORT ...... 7P Innox Riverside development, Trowbridge ...... 7P Speed limits on passenger trains...... 7P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 21 November 2012

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 481W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT—continued Burglary...... 481W Staff ...... 490W Internet ...... 481W DEFENCE...... 491W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 481W Afghanistan ...... 491W Credit: Interest Rates ...... 481W Armed Forces: Allowances...... 492W New Businesses ...... 482W Armed Forces: Children...... 492W South East ...... 482W Armed Forces: Education ...... 492W World War II: Females...... 483W Armed Forces: Officers ...... 492W Canada ...... 493W CABINET OFFICE...... 484W Employment Agencies...... 494W Business Appointments Advisory Committee ...... 484W Libya...... 494W Commissioning Academy Programme ...... 484W Maritime Surveillance...... 494W Military Alliances ...... 494W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 485W Military Bases: Recycling...... 494W Affordable Housing...... 485W Navy ...... 495W Council Tax Benefits...... 485W Sick Leave ...... 496W Family Intervention Projects ...... 485W Trident ...... 497W Members: Correspondence ...... 486W Type 45 Destroyers...... 497W Right to Buy Scheme ...... 486W Veterans: Post-traumatic Stress Disorder ...... 497W Right to Buy Scheme: Havering ...... 486W World War II: Anniversaries ...... 498W

CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 487W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 498W BBC Trust...... 487W Elections ...... 498W Broadband ...... 487W Trident ...... 498W National Lottery: Olympic Games 2012...... 488W National Lottery: Sports...... 488W EDUCATION...... 499W Olympic Lottery...... 488W Children: Corporal Punishment...... 499W Sports: Kent...... 489W Children in Care...... 499W Col. No. Col. No. EDUCATION—continued HOME DEPARTMENT—continued Dyslexia: Apprentices ...... 500W Immigration Controls ...... 519W Special Educational Needs...... 500W Immigration: Somalia ...... 519W Young People: Departmental Coordination...... 501W Members: Correspondence ...... 520W National Wildlife Crime Unit ...... 520W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 502W Offences against Children ...... 520W Fuel Poverty...... 502W Prostitution...... 520W Fuel Poverty: Devon ...... 502W UK Border Agency ...... 521W Offshore Industry...... 502W Written Questions ...... 521W Renewable Energy...... 502W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 522W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Bangladesh...... 522W AFFAIRS...... 503W Developing Countries: Land ...... 522W Ash Dieback Disease ...... 503W Developing Countries: Primary Education ...... 523W Birds of Prey...... 503W Fiji ...... 523W Common Agricultural Policy ...... 504W Pay...... 523W Eggs: Imports...... 506W Somaliland...... 524W Horses: Exports ...... 506W Livestock: Exports ...... 506W JUSTICE...... 524W Corruption...... 524W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 507W Criminal Injuries Compensation ...... 524W Fiji ...... 507W Dementia ...... 525W Palestinians ...... 508W Fines ...... 526W Pay...... 509W Legal Aid Scheme ...... 527W Somalia...... 509W Magistrates’ Courts: West Yorkshire ...... 527W Somaliland...... 510W Pay...... 527W Sentencing: EU Nationals...... 528W HEALTH...... 510W Sick Leave ...... 528W Cancer ...... 510W Young Offenders ...... 529W Death ...... 511W Dementia ...... 512W SCOTLAND...... 529W Disclosure of Information ...... 512W Overseas Students ...... 529W Health Services: South West...... 512W Unemployment ...... 529W Hip Replacements...... 513W Voluntary Sector ...... 529W Obesity...... 513W Pancreatic Cancer ...... 513W TRANSPORT ...... 530W Pay...... 514W Employment Agencies...... 530W Prescriptions ...... 514W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 530W South London Healthcare NHS Trust ...... 515W Roads: Accidents ...... 531W Severn River Crossing: Tolls...... 532W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 516W Asylum: Finance...... 516W TREASURY ...... 532W Asylum: North Korea ...... 516W Child Benefit...... 532W Deportation: Democratic Republic of Congo ...... 517W ICT ...... 532W Entry Clearances...... 517W PAYE...... 532W Human Trafficking ...... 518W Pensions...... 534W Immigrants: Detainees ...... 518W Staff ...... 534W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Wednesday 21 November 2012

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not later than Wednesday 28 November 2012

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 21 November 2012

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 561] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Scotland Prime Minister

BBC (Audit Arrangements and Publication of Invoices) [Col. 582] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Alun Cairns)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Opposition Day [10th allotted day] Security in Northern Ireland [Col. 585] Motion—(Mr Dodds)—agreed to Military Covenant [Col. 640] Motion—(Mr Donaldson)—agreed to

Petitions [Col. 680]

0845 Phone Lines (DWP) [Col. 681] Debate on Motion for Adjournment

Social Security [Col. 689] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Westminster Hall UK Constituents Parts (EU) [Col. 141WH] Housing Benefit (Under-25s) [Col. 168WH] Cycling Safety [Col. 176WH] Dyslexia (Prisons) [Col. 198WH] Mobile Technology (Health Care) [Col. 207WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 31WS]

Petitions [Col. 7P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 481W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 5MC]