Email 4---Hi (Gentleman), I Hope You Are Well. Yes, It's Turned Into a Long

--- Email 4---- Hi (Gentleman), I hope you are well. Yes, it's turned into a long conversation quite quickly.

I was interested in this part of the discussion about truth. --- The problem is that all religions are at best superficially the same, but make fundamentally different truth claims. Yes but most have similar if not the same guiding principles – the golden rule for instance. They cannot all be truth; because by definition a truth claim by it's nature, excludes other alternatives. I see this as a half- truth. Jesus didn't combat errors in crowded out errors with greater truth. --- I said "a truth claim excludes other alternatives"; and you respond "I see this as a half-truth"; the logic and meaning of this response is unclear, maybe you can elaborate a little?

The statement: "I am not a pluralist but I am sympathetic to the truths within each religion sect, and cult." To tease it out a little (in my own mind) The statement "I am not a pluralist" (an absolute statement); but "I am sympathetic to the (absolute or relative?) truths in each religion, sect and cult". (seems like a value judgement).

As you know the law of non contradiction states contradictory propositions cannot both be true in the same sense at the same time.

The statement "There is no such thing as absolute truth"; is a truth claim; and is self- contradictory.

The Bible says "Jesus Christ is The Creator God"; it is a truth claim; and it excludes other alternatives. The Gospels state that Jesus was conceived in the Virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit.

(by way of comparison) The Book of Mormon basically states that 'Heavenly Father' (God) is an elevated man who has achieved godhood and created planet earth. Jesus is a god, the spiritual brother of Satan, was conceived by a physical union between God, the Father and Mary. It also teaches that humans lived in a pre-mortal state in spirit form, pass through a 'veil of forgetfulness' (which is why one can't remember this pre-mortal state); are born; and humans ideal destiny is reaching exaltation to godhood; in order for men to then be the 'heavenly father' of another planet. (this is what their doctrine states, having studied it extensively while trying to share the Gospel to Mormon Missionaries)

Islam states that Jesus did not die; Judaism states that Jesus did not rise again; Christianity states that Jesus both died and rose again;

You have read Urantia Book, I guess we have to ask; what are it's truth claims to Who Jesus is? I would also ask "Who is the source of this new knowledge?". It appears to mix all world religions together with evolution; you mentioned in our original discussion you started to form a new religion in the 70s and stopped in the 80s (as it was the thing to do in the 70s). Was some of the basis of this from Urantia? What is interesting is the similarities of the appearance of an angelic being to start new religions. An angel appear to the prophet Muhammad; and angel (Moroni) appeared to Joseph Smith; and it appears at first glance, that the Urantia Book is (or claims to be) new revelation from the spiritual realm; and if it's not of God, then Who is the source of this new revelation claiming to be higher truth than has already been revealed in the Person of Jesus Christ. Looking through some of the material on the website; on 'https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book/faqs/who-jesus', and 'https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book/faqs/what-was-purpose-jesus-life' it stands in contradiction to Jesus claim of Himself in John 10; for which the Jews wanted to stone Jesus for blasphemy.

I would simply say that Worldviews / religions cannot all be true. So, I don't see the Book of Uranta as authoritative, and can't see it's value as helpful to gain greater knowledge about Jesus teachings; and would suggest that it's a new religion or worldview.

I like this diagram of 'levels of doctrine': https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justin-taylor/how-do-you- evaluate-and-weigh-the-importance-of-various-doctrines/ I think that Who Jesus Is, and What He has done fall directly into the 'core doctrines'.

As the Apostle Paul writes in 1 Corinthians "the cross is a stumbling block to the Jews, and foolishness to the Greeks". I guess the best way for all of us is to remain humble, and as it says in verse 31 "let him who boasts, boast in the Lord". We are but sinners; who Christ came to redeem.

Kind regards M

Christ Crucified Is God’s Power and Wisdom

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[c]

20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”

--- Email 3---- On, (Gentleman), wrote: M, in such a long-winded email exchange as ours it might be good to just cut and paste the whole email and comment in coloured ink which is what I've done here. Cheers and God bless (Gentleman), will Yes it was good to catch up, and I really enjoyed our chat. I quite enjoyed the first four points you shared from the book, and they made quite good sense, although I would have to think through them a little more. Glad you liked them and that you might give them more thought.

Initially; I would simply say that faith and belief, on a very simplistic level, are used interchangeably in everyday language. Yes they are but but there is a nuanced and subtlety of meaning when thinking more deeply about the words. They are descriptors of quite different experiences.

What is important is not the faith itself, but the object of the faith. That which one places faith in. Faith in falsehood is not that useful; Faith must be rooted in Truth to be of value. Agreed. Rooted in God. One can strive to have faith -- as Jesus did -- our wayshower and savior. 'Love one another as I have loved you, for greater love [and faith] can no one have then I have had for you'.

I don't agree with the common claim "it's enough to just have faith in whatever you like", because the faith itself is rooted in the claims of what is being believed; a worldview. Agreed. Having faith in ones self as a kind of super overconfidence will not be very helpful to ourselves or anyone else in the long-term. Now of course; Jesus' claim "I am the way, the truth and the life" is to some too exclusive and they reject that as too narrow. As I see it is the most expansive idea imaginable. The idea that the creator of the universe can be accessible enough to 'come to me' is wonderful. The problem is that all religions are at best superficially the same, but make fundamentally different truth claims. Yes but most have similar if not the same guiding principles – the golden rule for instance. They cannot all be truth; because by definition a truth claim by it's nature, excludes other alternatives. I see this as a half- truth. Jesus didn't combat errors in crowded out errors with greater truth. I explain it poorly, but one of my favourite speakers, Ravi Zacharius, explains it much better: agree. It is very difficult to explain or or fully understand in our limited condition. In our continuing life we will understand this sort of thing a lot better – than even Ravi can. https://www.youtube.com/will?v=3N77D4dUgP4 All the world views have'truths'. Ravi is great but although he seems to have all the answers -- but there is much more than a literalist approach which quotes only the Bible. As much as I appreciate it. I agree with him about sin by the way.' Purposes' absolutely are absolutely the key imperative and that is the great eternal value of Christianity -- a personal relationship with God.

Another logical way of looking at it, is explained by William Lane Craig, of whom I've only read one of his books recently on the Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Christ. I enjoy his videos also. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRyq6RwzlEM

Yes Christian particularism is scandalous today. God and Jesus have too many unaractive and dogmatic press agents -- people who repel genuine seekers for truth. But that doesn't that the truths that they do share should be downgraded. This is our whole thesis of course on this subject. I am not a pluralist but I am sympathetic to the truths within each religion sect, and cult.

I have not heard of this 'Urantia Book' before; so I had a read the wikipedia article at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Urantia_Book.

Under the 'Nature of God', it's interesting they mention what appears to be a reference to the Biblical Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit); but the athors have changed who Jesus Christ is, as revealed in the Bible. According to the Wikipedia article (about the Urantia book); Jesus Christ is the 'joint offspring' of the 'Universal Father' and the 'Eternal Son'. while Wikipedia has its uses, explaining the Urantia Book is not one of them. I suggested that you went to the primary source book itself rather than secondary interpretations and commentaries. You will only get confusion from that. Google your own church and see what Wikipedia tells you. The only real way to assess the Urantia Book is to do what I suggested read little bits that illuminate biblical passages you appreciate.

"Many types of celestial beings are enumerated in the book, and one of particular note is a joint "offspring" of the Universal Father and Eternal Son called a "Creator Son."[45][46] A divine Creator Son is considered the highest personification of the Universal Father and Eternal Son that is possible for people to know and: "...is, to all practical intents and purposes, God."[47] Jesus of Nazareth is identified as a Creator Son who incarnated on Earth,[46] and the central theme of the book's section recounting his life and teachings is that the religion he preached is the highest known to the world.[48]" Yes the angels are described and named -- it is a Yellow pages of our Universe -- with the central Government being explained and the nature of these beings examined. It suggests it is a Revelation of truth in written form -- and it might well be.

About two years ago, I was trying to sharing the Gospel (the good news about who Jesus claimed to be, what he did on the cross, and we can be saved by faith: that is, by accepting the gift of God's grace which is Christ's atoning sacrifice on the cross on our behalf) with Mormons, who are a what I would describe a cult of Christianity; In short, Joseph Smith, who also claims to have a new revelation through an angel called Moroni; has redefined many of the key claims of who God is and Who Jesus is, and What is the Gospel (these three being the most important parts of the Christian faith; the core doctrines, if you will) Mormon doctrine states that God the Father is an man elevated to godhood, Jesus Christ is the Son as a result of a physical union between God Father and the Virgin Mary; and Jesus is the spiritual brother of Satan. Joseph Smith, has also changed the way of salvation through works; Ephesians 2:8-9 states "8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast." (as you would know written by the Apostle Paul in the first century). In stark contrast; The Book of Mormon states in 2 Nephi 25:23 "By grace you are saved, after all you can do" . In short, after a full like of 'after all you can do' they don't know whether they have done enough good works to achieve heaven (or exhalation to godhood as is what their doctrine falsely states that heaven is like)

Also, in the course of thinking through and sharing with the Mormon missionaries, I believe their view of God also introduces a logical problem into their world view in the origin of the universe. I wrote a small one page tract to share with them (attached) with screen captures from their website.

Mormons also believe in a so called 'pre-mortal' existance; and they pass through a so called 'veil of forgetfulness' before being born to this earth. In short, they have changed almost every important Biblical doctrine, and as Ravi Zacharius said of Mormonism in this video when asked "Is Mormonism the same as Christianity?";

"...when the Christian uses the word cult, a cult is generally defined as that which claims to be rooted in historic Christianity; but has deviated or abandoned the finished work of Christ, or compromised on His person..." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RArBX64Xno8

Not so interested in Mormons belief system. I have met a number of 'Elders' who are rather nice people – they are certainly of goodwill with fine family values. I would suggest that God is focused on their faith and not too worried about what may well be faulty beliefs. Same goes for me and you if our beliefs about God are faulty. God knows our faith is real -- if we experience it in our daily life. Faulty beliefs are not too much of a worry for God. A lack of faith in God does make this and our next life more difficult. For those who mock God such as the New Atheists -- there will be a rude awakening.

So, back to the Urantia Book; I also carefully discern (but from your own belief and knowledge base) and be pretty cautious as to whether any material has "deviated or abandoned the finished work of Christ, or compromised on Who he is". God has not finished anything. There is so much more that God is doing in the world today than could be said or done when he was alive or when Bible authors wrote about him of the prophets. While the sharing of universal knowledge is what the Bible does -- it is a wonderful book --- a great step. But it is the spirit that lives. For me, the Urantia Book's telling of the Jesus story brought his life and teachings to life -- just as the Bible did so for you. That's good for both of us -- and we can share the aliveness we find in the spirit that quickens us through such reading.

Jesus was not just a good teacher; or another prophet (as Muslims hold to), or the spiritual brother of Satan (as the Mormons teach); He claimed to be the Eternal Son Who Created the World (John 1); He forgave sins in His own authority first, and then healed the paralyzed man to prove He had authority to forgive sins (Mark 2:1-12); told the Pharisees that "Before Abraham was 'I AM'"; using the term Yahweh used when He introduced Himself to Moses at the burning bush. The Pharisees knew exactly what he was claiming and wanted to stone Him for blasphemy (John 8:48- 59), and even at the first stage of Christ's trial in front the Sanhedrin, Jesus quoted from Daniel 7 about Himself being the Son of Man, the Messiah who was prophesied to come. (Mark 16:53-65)(Luke 22:66-71), and again the 'I AM' reference claiming to be Yahwah: "61 Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” 63 The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64 “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?” They all condemned him as worthy of death"

As CS Lewis put it: "I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. ... Now it seems to me obvious that He was neither a lunatic nor a fiend: and consequently, however strange or terrifying or unlikely it may seem, I have to accept the view that He was and is God."

On Sunday, I mentioned I'd done an online course in apologetics with the RZIM Acadamy; I have only done the Core Module so far; but found it very helpful. (http://rzimacademy.org/courses/core-module/) Ravi Zacharius states that a person's world view is made up of 4 basic questions, which we each must answer to formulate a world view. These questions form part of what he refers to as a 2.3.4.5.6 grid. When I try to share with others about Christianity, I simply try to ask questions relating back to one of the 4 categories to get them to think about their worldview, and in order to learn more; but most importantly to have a good constructive dialog and a meaningful discussion.

4 worldview questions: Origin: How do you think the universe came into existence? How do you think human life began?

Meaning: What is the purpose of human life?

Morality: How do you determine good and bad?

Destiny: What will happen at the end (at death)?

I've attached the lecture notes from that particular lecture which might be of interest; the rest of the course is just as good as well and goes for 10 weeks with a lecturer.

The other thing you might really enjoy is there is a discussion forum as part of RZIM called 'RZIM Connect' and it's free to join and you don't need to have completed any courses to get access. I enjoy spending time reading and discussion with fellow Christians from many denominations and it has grown my own faith also. It's available at https://connect.rzim.org/

I'll try and respond to future emails, within a few days as we converse but sometimes I may not be able to reply for a week; as work and life is very busy. If you wanted a group of like-minded Christians then the RZIM.Connect is excellent for a more active discussion. Some of the members are currently working through a book on the forum by Andy Bannnister called "The Atheist that Didn't Exist; or the Consequence of Bad Arguments" which is quite interesting. It's a mixture of apologetics and humor. One of my other favourite authors is John Lennox; and I've read all of his books. If you wanted a brilliant but short book to share with your son (who you mentioned is an atheist), Lennox wrote one called 'Can Science Explain Everything?'. I keep a copy in the glovebox of my car in case I can give it out if I manage to have a reasonable conversation with someone.

God bless, enjoy your week ahead, and I'll try and respond in a timely manner, but as mentioned I might be a little delayed.

Cheers M Thanks for all the time and energy you have put into this M You are a faithful steward of your church and the worldview it holds all – and you are a gracious one. I didn't feel that pushyness from you that I often feel from 'born again' Christians. That's all I can do for now M. I really don't want to debate issues with a somewhat trained Christian apologist --especially by email. I would rather talk with you.

All I can suggest is that you compare some of the Urantia version of Jesus -- say the Sermon on the Mount with the Bible's version and see if you it speaks to you. 'As Jesus Passed' by and 'The Faith of Jesus' are also worth reading -- some of it can be confusing but not these.

Happy to meet sometime to discuss Jesus. Gathered in his name is always good -- for He will be there. But have too much on to do a lengthy email intellectual back and forth on this. Thanks again Cheers and God Bless will (Gentleman), ps I use a voice recognition program and so some of my spelling, sentence structure and punctuation is poor – please excuse.

----- Email 2------On, M wrote: Hi (Gentleman),, yes it was good to catch up, and I really enjoyed our chat. I quite enjoyed the first four points you shared from the book, and they made quite good sense, although I would have to think through them a little more.

Initially; I would simply say that faith and belief, on a very simplistic level, are used interchangeably in everyday language.

What is important is not the faith itself, but the object of the faith. That which one places faith in. Faith in falsehood is not that useful; Faith must be rooted in Truth to be of value.

I don't agree with the common claim "it's enough to just have faith in whatever you like", because the faith itself is rooted in the claims of what is being believed; a worldview. Now of course; Jesus' claim "I am the way, the truth and the life" is to some too exclusive and they reject that as too narrow. The problem is that all religions are at best superficially the same, but make fundamentally different truth claims. They cannot all be truth; because by definition a truth claim by it's nature, excludes other alternatives. I explain it poorly, but one of my favourite speakers, Ravi Zacharius, explains it much better: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N77D4dUgP4

I have not heard of this 'Urantia Book' before; so I had a read the wikipedia article at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Urantia_Book.

Mormon doctrine states that God the Father is an man elevated to godhood, Jesus Christ is the Son as a result of a physical union between God Father and the Virgin Mary; and Jesus is the spiritual brother of Satan. Joseph Smith, has also changed the way of salvation through works; Ephesians 2:8-9 states "8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast." (as you would know written by the Apostle Paul in the first century). In stark contrast; The Book of Mormon states in 2 Nephi 25:23 "By grace you are saved, after all you can do" . In short, after a full like of 'after all you can do' they don't know whether they have done enough good works to achieve heaven (or exhalation to godhood as is what their doctrine falsely states that heaven is like)

So, back to the Urantia Book; I also carefully discern and be pretty cautious as to whether any material has "deviated or abandoned the finished work of Christ, or compromised on Who he is".

4 worldview questions: Origin: How do you think the universe came into existence? How do you think human life began?

Meaning: What is the purpose of human life?

Morality: How do you determine good and bad?

Destiny: What will happen at the end (at death)?

I've attached the lecture notes from that particular lecture which might be of interest; the rest of the course is just as good as well and goes for 10 weeks with a lecturer.

God bless, enjoy your week ahead, and I'll try and respond in a timely manner, but as mentioned I might be a little delayed.

Cheers …

---- Email 1 ------On (Gentleman),wrote: Hi M, Lovely to meet you in church today. Here is a section I really like about Belief and Faith, from the Urantia Book which I was telling something about. I am reticent to share the Urantia Book teachings with Church members -- especially a son in laws of a preacher -- however you are big boy and a well read one too -- and a remarkably curious person. This is the one weakness I seem to see in mny Christians -- a lack of curiosity regarding anything that seems to contradict or add to the truth they have accepted. Anyway, I share this with you.

P1114:5, 101:8.1 Belief has attained the level of faith when it motivates life and shapes the mode of living. The acceptance of a teaching as true is not faith; that is mere belief. Neither is certainty nor conviction faith. A state of mind attains to faith levels only when it actually dominates the mode of living. Faith is a living attribute of genuine personal religious experience. One believes truth, admires beauty, and reverences goodness, but does not worship them; such an attitude of saving faith is centered on God alone, who is all of these personified and infinitely more.

P1114:6, 101:8.2 Belief is always limiting and binding; faith is expanding and releasing. Belief fixates, faith liberates. But living religious faith is more than the association of noble beliefs; it is more than an exalted system of philosophy; it is a living experience concerned with spiritual meanings, divine ideals, and supreme values; it is God-knowing and man-serving. Beliefs may become group possessions, but faith must be personal. Theologic beliefs can be suggested to a group, but faith can rise up only in the heart of the individual religionist.

P1114:7, 101:8.3 Faith has falsified its trust when it presumes to deny realities and to confer upon its devotees assumed knowledge. Faith is a traitor when it fosters betrayal of intellectual integrity and belittles loyalty to supreme values and divine ideals. Faith never shuns the problem-solving duty of mortal living. Living faith does not foster bigotry, persecution, or intolerance.

P1115:1, 101:8.4 Faith does not shackle the creative imagination, neither does it maintain an unreasoning prejudice toward the discoveries of scientific investigation. Faith vitalizes religion and constrains the religionist heroically to live the golden rule. The zeal of faith is according to knowledge, and its strivings are the preludes to sublime peace.

http://urantia-book.org/newbook/ub/ppr101_8.html also relevant to our conversation: Jesus’ great contribution to the values of human experience was not that he revealed so many new ideas about the Father in heaven, but rather that he so magnificently and humanly demonstrated a new and higher type of living faith in God. Never on all the worlds of this universe, in the life of any one mortal, did God ever become such a living reality as in the human experience of Jesus of Nazareth.

196:0.4 (2087.4) In the Master’s life on Urantia, this and all other worlds of the local creation discover a new and higher type of religion, religion based on personal spiritual relations with the Universal Father and wholly validated by the supreme authority of genuine personal experience. This living faith of Jesus was more than an intellectual reflection, and it was not a mystic meditation. Theology may fix, formulate, define, and dogmatize faith, but in the human life of Jesus faith was personal, living, original, spontaneous, and purely spiritual. This faith was not reverence for tradition nor a mere intellectual belief which he held as a sacred creed, but rather a sublime experience and a profound conviction which securely held him. His faith was so real and all-encompassing that it absolutely swept away any spiritual doubts and effectively destroyed every conflicting desire. Nothing was able to tear him away from the spiritual anchorage of this fervent, sublime, and undaunted faith. Even in the face of apparent defeat or in the throes of disappointment and threatening despair, he calmly stood in the divine presence free from fear and fully conscious of spiritual invincibility. Jesus enjoyed the invigorating assurance of the possession of unflinching faith, and in each of life’s trying situations he unfailingly exhibited an unquestioning loyalty to the Father’s will. And this superb faith was undaunted even by the cruel and crushing threat of an ignominious death. [For me He is the most inspiring role model possible -- who is my best and closest friend]. https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-standardized/paper-196-faith-jesus

If you were to look at this book, I suggest you have a look at some of the Papers in the Life and Teachings of Jesus which might pique your interest: see the sidebar of th above link. For me it illuminates the Bible in modern language and explores theological issues in a remarkable way..

Feel free to make a comment when you have a moment.

There is a lovely book which focuses and sumeraises this Part IV of the Urantia Book: It cherry picks the longer version in a very sensible way: I have only yesterday become aware of its existence. I am buying a copy. https://www.booktopia.com.au/the-untold-story-of-jesus-urantia- press/book/9780997404913.html?source=pla&gclid=Cj0KCQiAw4jvBRCJARIsAHYe wPMpi15ahZBwcHeZo3F6ZVdS1_hDZN8rmxlMsEYDfi_pgrtYmAXoi7saAuoLEALw_ wcB

All the best and God bless,

(Gentleman),