Theory and Practice: an Interview with Louise M. Rosenblatt Author(S): NICHOLAS J

Theory and Practice: An Interview with Louise M. Rosenblatt Author(s): NICHOLAS J. KAROLIDES and Louise M. Rosenblatt Source: Language Arts, Vol. 77, No. 2, COLLABORATIONS (NOVEMBER 1999), pp. 158-170 Published by: National Council of Teachers of English Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/41484075 . Accessed: 14/01/2014 23:31

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This content downloaded from 150.135.135.70 on Tue, 14 Jan 2014 23:31:55 PM All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions Theory and Practice: An Interview

with Louise M. Rosenblatt

NICHOLAS J. KAROLIDES

In thisarticle, Nicholas Karolides has a conversationwith Longrecognized as a preem- inentleader in our profes- distinguishededucator Louise Rosenblatt , this year's Outstanding sion,Louise M. Rosenblatt has been chosento receive Educatorin theLanguage Arts. Recipients of this annual award thefourth NCTE Awardfor OutstandingEducator in are selectedby membersof the ElementarySection of the the Language Arts. Her presencein our fieldand NationalCouncil of Teachers of English. her influencecan be mea- suredby the frequency with whichshe is cited,not only in NCTE periodicals,but alsoin thetexts of our disci- plineand others. As a writer and speaker,as a creativethinker, Rosenblatt's energetic and dedicatedespousal of a theoreticaldoctrine and itsapplica- tionin ourclassrooms has indeedbeen massively influential sinceLiterature as Explorationburst upon thelanguage arts scenein 1938. In "Reaffirmations,"herepilogue to thefifth edition of Lit- eratureas Exploration(1995), Louisereveals features of her backgroundthat prepared her fordeveloping her transac- tionaltheory. She highlights, first, her family's role. Intellectu- ally influencedby antiauthoritarian,European writers and such Americansas Emersonand Thoreau,she was "saved fromacquiring lingering Victorian attitudes - especiallyabout gender,class, and ethnicdifferences." Peter Kropotkin's ideas about"mutual aid" supplanted the struggle-for-survival ideas ofsocial Darwinism. Rosenblatt'sundergraduate experience at Barnard,the women'scollege at ColumbiaUniversity in New York,was not conventional.An "honorstudent" during her last two years,she did not followthe traditional liberal arts English programbut instead read, mainly on herown, intensively in Englishand Americanliterature and widelyin thesocial sciences.Upon graduation,she accepteda graduatefellowship at theUniversity of Grenoble. In thefollowing years, she was acceptedas a doctoralcandidate in ComparativeLiterature at theSorbonne, the faculty of letters of the University of Paris. She receivedher doctorate in 1931; herdissertation, written in French,Lldée de l'art pour l'art dans la littératureanglais pen- LANGUAGEARTS, VOL. 77, NO. 2, NOVEMBER1999 dantla périodevictorienne , was publishedthe same year. Sub-

This content downloaded from 150.135.135.70 on Tue, 14 Jan 2014 23:31:55 PM All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions LOUISE ROSENBLATT sequently,while teachingat BarnardCollege, Rosenblatt and her theoryhas provento be "relevantto decade after undertookgraduate studies in anthropologywith Professors decade of criticaland pedagogicalrevolution" (as citedin FranzBoas, the great founder of American anthropology, and Rosenblatt,1995, p. vii). Chiefamong these publications, RuthBenedict. TheReader ; the Text , the Poem: The Transactional Theory of the During her Barnardaffiliation, . Rosenblatt's combined LiteraryWork (1978, revisedpaperback edition 1994) ex- trainingin literature,anthropology, and theother social sci- pressesher theoretical vision as does "TheTransactional The- encesled, in 1935,to her appointment to the Commission on ory of Readingand Writing"(1994). (A selectionof her HumanRelations of theProgressive Education Association. publicationsfollows the interview.) Anindependent outgrowth of her work with the commission LouiseRosenblatt has servedthe profession in otherways was the writingof her Literatureas Exploration(first pub- as well.She was appointedto theCommission on Englishof lishedin 1938, reissuedin 1968, 1976, 1983, and 1995). theCollege Entrance Examination Board as wellas theCom- Her contactswith educationspecialists and her visitsto missionon theEnglish Curriculum of the National Council schoolswhere innovative ideas had been introducedsup-* of Teachersof English.For thelatter, she was chairof the portedthe decision to write this text, as didher own teaching committeeon thefirst two years of college; she contributed to experiencesin introductorycourses. In thesecourses she had thefive-volume set oftexts that emerged from the commis- begunto developinsights about thenature of the reading sion'swork. She has alsoserved as a memberof the Executive experienceas wellas discussionstrategies in contrastto the Committeeof theConference on CollegeComposition and traditionalteacher-dominated lecture which was orientedto- Communication.Additionally, she has been a consultantfor wardfuture English majors. stateboards of education. LouiseRosenblatt has beenteaching and activelyengaged Amongthe many honors that Rosenblatt has receivedare in advancingreforms in educationfor six decades, starting in theFranco-American Exchange Fellow, 1925-1926; Guggen- 1927 withher first decade of teaching experience at Barnard heimFellow, 1942-1943; NYU GreatTeacher Award, 1972; College.After twenty years in liberalarts departments at NCTE DistinguishedResearch, 1980; Leland Jacobs Award for ColumbiaUniversity (Barnard) and BrooklynCollege, she Literature,1981; the Assemblyon AdolescentLiterature taughtat New YorkUniversity's School of Educationfrom Award,1984; and theIRA Reading Hall ofFame, 1992. The 1948 to 1972,after which she reached mandatory retirement Societyfor the Advancement ofAmerican Philosophy devoted age.(It was mygreat good fortune to have been both her stu- a plenarysession to her work at its 1997 nationalconvention. dentand herdoctoral candidate during this period.) She has All ofthis is on therecord. I wantto add to therecord a also taught,after 1972, at RutgersUniversity, Michigan State fewwords about Louise M. Rosenblatt,the teacher. Intense. University,University of Pennsylvania,and others.For the Herclasses were invariably intense, whether they focused on past severalwinters, she has been lecturingand working literaryworks, criticism, or theory.Louise herself was engag- withdoctoral candidates at theUniversity of Miami,Coral ingand receptive;she encouraged response, asking reflective Gables,Florida. andstimulating questions. She managed to create a classroom DuringWorld War II, Louisetook a leaveof absence from ambiancethat was both welcomingand demanding.Cer- BrooklynCollege to becomeAssociate Chief of the Western tainly,she practiced what she preached. Wayne Booth's judg- Europeansection and Chiefof the Central Reports section of mentapplies here, too: she has been a "powerfulinfluence" theBureau of Overseas Intelligence of the Office of War In- on herstudents! formation.Thus, from 1943 to 1945, she was immersedin I interviewedLouise M. Rosenblattat her home in Prince- informationgathering and propaganda analysis of radio texts ton,New Jersey, in Mayof 1999. and publisheddocuments (e.g., newspapers) that had been NICHOLAS: Congratulationsonthe Outstanding Educator in smuggledout of occupied countries. theLanguage Arts award, additional evidence of LouiseRosenblatt's name is wellknown among teachers of thewidespread influence ofyour work. Englishlanguage arts, chiefly because of Literature as Explo- ration.Indeed, its immediate positive reception propelled her LOUISE: I amtremendously pleased at being given this towardher firstmajor presentation for NCTE, addressing award.Although my own teaching experience has 3,000 teachersin theManhattan Opera House at the 1939 beenin college and university, I have thought that annualconvention in New York.Secondary and elementary ifI couldstart all over again, I would again choose school teacherspersisted in theirinterest in her approach thenoble profession ofteacher, but for the earliest duringthe post- WWII years,although New Criticismgained years.As for the acceptance ofthis approach in dominanceamong college and universityfaculties. A resur- manyclassrooms and schools, I know that many genceof attention occurred in the 1970s,steadily increasing peoplehave contributed tothe changes over the sincethen, encompassing all levelsof instruction. years.And I mustadmit, my tendency, as always, is Manypresentations and publicationshave established, in todwell, not so muchon rewards for past efforts, thewords of Wayne Booth, Rosenblatt's "powerful influence" nomatter how much appreciated, as on what

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remainsto be done,on current problems and observation,that human beings are the mediators controversies. inthe perception oftheir world. They have come tobe seenas constantlyinmutual interplay with NICHOLAS: Asyou look back, can you discern any generative theirphysical and human environment. ideasthat brought you to write Literature as JohnÇewey and other Pragmatist philosophers Exploration? haddeveloped this approach early in the century. LOUISE: I likeyour phrase "generative ideas" - ithelps me In 1949John Dewey and Arthur E Bentley tolink up differentstrands in my thinking. I have suggestedthat the term "interaction" wastoo much beeninterested inturn-of-the-millennium talk involvedwith the older stimulus-and-response aboutthe changes that have come about in this approach.They suggested "transaction" forthe idea centuryThere have been great changes in science, ofa continuingto-and-fro, back and forth, give- inthe physical sciences, for example, after Einstein, and-takereciprocal orspiral relationship inwhich withtremendous effect on technology and our eachconditions the other. "Transaction" has practicallife. The way we think of our relation implicationsforall aspects of life. Ecology offers an toour world has changed. There has been the easily-understoodillustration ofthe transactional emergenceofthe social sciences. The sufferings ofa relationshipbetween human beings and their greatDepression earned us its legacy of acceptance naturalenvironment. "Transaction" alsoapplies to ofgovernment's responsibility forthe economy and individuals'relations toone another, whether we thewelfare ofits citizens. There have been terrible thinkof them in the family, the classroom, the wars,totalitarian threats todemocracy, whether schoolor in the broader society and culture. fromthe left or the right. And there still continue Thisapproach had been an important part tobe conflictsover alternatives todemocracy. ofmy thinking, so that I welcomed the term Therehas been great diversification inthe ethnic transaction,toemphasize that the meaning isbeing backgroundofAmerican citizens. builtup through the back-and-forth relationship Somehow,I've always been so involvedin the betweenreader and text during a reading event. presentand the future that only recently have I actuallyrealized that I havelived through almost thewhole span of the century. Ithelps me to see The way we think of our relation thatin my little corner of the picture I was trying to our world has todeal with some of the repercussions ofthose changed. changesin the way we look at the world, and withthe recurrent threats to democracy NICHOLAS: Youare often said to be atleast 30 yearsahead of Withinthat context, I would say the truly yourtime in your response to the changes. Can "generative"ideas have been the value of youexplain how that happened? democracyfor human beings, and the importance ofpreserving and improving our democratic way LOUISE: I wasfortunate, I guess. You know the saying oflife. This is whatcolored my thinking about aboutthe right place at the right time. It's hard for literatureand led to my becoming involved with meto weigh all the influences - family (which was education,with trying to understandhow schools extremelyimportant), education, friends - that cancontribute tothe growth of people able to convergedtomake me receptive tothe new ideas preserveand carry into greater fulfillment the inthe exciting intellectual environment ofthe 20s democraticsociety, imperfect as it may be, that and30s. I wasfortunate inbeing at Barnard, the weare now benefiting from. women'scollege at Columbia University inNew YorkCity, both for my undergraduate years and, NICHOLAS: Wouldyou elaborate on your remarks about aftertaking my doctorate atthe Sorbonne, as an changingways of looking at the world? instructorinthe Barnard English department. LOUISE: Thetraditional way assumed that the "self," the Thosewere the years when while teaching observer,was completely separate from nature. compositionand literature, I was studying Thisproduced the Newtonian stimulus-response linguisticsand ethnography inthe graduate paradigm,which still has its uses, and which anthropologydepartment. I was encountering the studiesan "interaction"between things viewed as mostinnovative thinking inthe arts, philosophy, distinctand self-contained. Einsteinian theory andthe social sciences, as wellas ineducation. broughtabout a challengeto this. It opened the Thosewere the years also when I wasa memberof wayto increasing recognition that the observer a philosophicalconference organized by John mustalways be takeninto account in any Dewey,Horace Kallen and other Pragmatist

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philosophers,and I readsome of their writings LOUISE: I recalla momentearly in my teaching. I found andthose of C. S. Peirce. myselfin a classroominwhich I hadtaken an classin 18th literature.It NICHOLAS: Whatwere the circumstances that brought you to undergraduate century was a tall ina thewriting ofLiterature as Exploration? taughtby Englishman three-piece suit,who spoke rather formally, with occasionally LOUISE: Inthe course of at myundergraduate years a slightcatch in his speech. Standing at the Barnard,I found muchinterested in myselfvery samepodium, holding forth, I suddenly heard literature,but also thesocial sciences, discovering a littlecatch in my speech! I realizedthat I WhenI especiallyanthropology. approached wassubconsciously imitating my professors' I wastorn between graduation, doinggraduate lectures- that it was not me talking! It's natural to workin literature or 1chose anthropology. teachthe way we've been taught. I understand literature.But, in order to anthro- satisfymy howmuch we are dominated by what we have pologicalinterest indifferent cultures, I chose to assimilatedfrom our environment - that even abroadto a witha different go country language. afterwe accept new ideas, it's not easy to develop Evenafter I had doctoratein my Comparative newpatterns ofbehavior. Literatureand had started to teach in the Barnard Althoughthe Barnard department was mainly I didtwo of CollegeEnglish Department, years traditional,there was some experimentation, workin graduate anthropology. mostlyimitative ofthe British universities. In Andbecause I coulddraw on both literature additionto the usual courses, I was given the andthe social sciences, in 1935I was to appointed opportunitytomeet students in small groups. a Commissionon HumanRelations. Its purpose Theseevidently were supposed tofulfill wasto a simply publishgroup of books about such topics theusual traditional teacher-dominated functions. as familyrelations, human and development, However,I was free to carry on my classes in my forlate schoolor psychology high earlycollege ownway, and gradually over about a decadeI had readers. functionwas to thebooks. My helpplan arrivedat the ideas expressed in my book. Others,skilled in wereto do the popularwriting, Actually,many of the examples in the book came actual That me firstcontact with writing. gave my frommy own classes, yet I was much the alwaysvery schools. awareof how much I failedto achieve. When ofthe work was done, I mypart I recalldiscussions inmy classes about reflectedonthe difference between about reading relationsbetween the generations inRomeo and humanrelations inthese books and the discussions Juliet.Or a studentwho declared that she did not ofhuman relations in classesafter the my reading considerthe play a tragedy,because Romeo and of worksof art. I had forthe literary greatrespect Julietwould certainly be reunitedinheaven. Or impersonal,scientific ofthe books we approach aboutthe lively arguments about A Doll'sHouse had Incontrast, the class discussions of planned. concerningthe tension between Nora's need to problemsinhuman relations arose out of what the becomean independent person and her readershad andfelt in thetext, thought reading responsibilitiesas a mother. andwere efforts tothink aboutsuch rationally Suchinterchanges demonstrated tome how topicsin an emotionally colored context. Itseemed muchwhat readers make of their interplay with a tome that the resulting insights bemore might textdepends on what they bring to it, in linguistic personallyfelt, more Both perhaps lasting. andlife experiences, inassumptions about the approachesseemed to me to be needed. world,and in personal I was Therewas no for preoccupations. provision anyCommission amazedat the differences inthe actual works the bookon the ofliterature. But I felt teaching readerslived through as well as intheir reactions to impelledto express these ideas. I wentout to the them.I couldn't ignore the fact that each brought countrywith a secretaryand dictated most of the differentpersonal experiences and sometimes very book.Recall that this was in the 30s, when both differentassumptions about people and to Nazismand Stalinism were I was society powerful. thereading. I couldn't simply be outneat motivatedtorelate all of these concerns to their handing littledefinitions oftragedy and comedy or asking rolein a democracy.My work for the Commission studentstoanalyze and classify the technique ofa gaveme the to ideas opportunityorganize my supposedlyalready-made literary work. aboutthe relation of literary experience to I learnedthe most from the small-group thinkingabout human relations. discussionsand from spontaneous written NICHOLAS: Whathad gone on in your classes that brought responses,although 1welcome any kind of thesethings to the surface of your thinking? effectiveclassroom practice or combination of

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lectureand discussion methods, so longas itis LOUISE: Nowadays,Peirce is being cited as a founderof productiveofinterchanges with the teacher and whathe called semiology, and is now called amongthe students. Reflecting onand discussing semiotics.In theearly 30s, my husband and I had whatthey had lived through in readingcould, readhis letters to a fellowsemiotics pioneer (who underproper conditions, I decided, lead to self- shouldbe moreoften remembered), Lady Welby, criticismand to growth in reading ability. Itcould inwhich he sets forth his triadic concept of alsolead to more lasting insights into human language.Although I didn't write about it until relationsthan would more impersonal scientific later,his triadic view of language already presentations,important though they were. permeatedmy thinking. Then- as,alas, for many, even now - the NICHOLAS: Somemight have been satisfied simply to settle traditionaleither/or notions about language foradvocating a change in teaching methods, for prevailed.Meaning was somehow assumed to be moresmall group discussions. How did your alreadythere "in" the text, like the kernel of a nut teachingexperience lead to the development ofa waitingto be priedout. The signifier and what it wholeliterary theory? signifiedwere treated as a dual,self-contained systemapart from its human context. I wasimmune to becauseI had My hope was above all to influence this, assimilatedPeirce's triadic concept of language - actual teaching. sign,object, interprétant - a sign and its object linkedby a mentalassociation. A sign is simply ona orvibrations inthe air until LOUISE: workfor the doctorate had involved squiggles page My already anidea in mindlinks the with mein aboutthe somebody's sign theoryHowever, my thinking whatit to.The triadic view of natureof the workand the social role points language literary wecan't concentrateonthe ofliterature had been fromthe explainswhy just primarily wordsand their from ofview of the creative carriedon meaningapart particular point process events.This literaturein the the ornovelist. literature linguistic firmlygrounds by author, poet My itshuman context. classes methe toobserve gave opportunity BothPeirce and reinforced andreflect on the betweenreaders Dewey my relationships that,before there can be a scientific andtexts. recognition reportor a novelor poem, there must be both a I sawways in which teaching should be text,a set of signs, and a reader(if only the author) changed.My hope was above all to influence actual whowill transact with it to make meaning. Meaning teaching.But I feltthat this could happen only if I happensduring the reading. When we talk about explainedthe theoretical basis for my ideas. The theinterpretation orthe work, we are talking about traditionalapproaches were based on assumptions, whatis evoked during the reading event. notonly about education but about language and Thereis alwaysa personaland a social literature,that I questioned.Hence the chapter on contextwithin which the reading event occurs. thenature of the literary experience. John Dewey Theindividual internalizes, draws on, a socially hadpublished Art as Experiencein 1934, and, producedlanguage presented by the family and as I statedin my book, his influence isobvious. societyWe have not only a particularmoment in However,itis hard to be very specific about this. thepersonal life of the reader, but also a particular I thinkI have already spoken at various times of socialand cultural environment. Hence my howso manyinfluences converged and reinforced insistencefrom the beginning on reading as a oneanother in those years. uniqueevent in time. I dictatedmost of the book away from libraries, andthere were no boxes of notes and quotations NICHOLAS: Nevertheless,students often assume that the text suchas hadbeen the preparation forwriting my alonedetermines whether the reading produces a dissertation.The book was a distillation,rather, of literarywork or a scientificreport. They point to allthe reading and reflection ofthose years. Hamletin a collectionentitled Tragedies and the generalassumption that it should be read as poetry. NICHOLAS: Youearlier mentioned the philosopher Charles SandersPeirce as aninfluence. As I recall,you LOUISE: That'sthe kind of confusion remaining from quotehis definition ofscience in Literature as traditionalconceptions oflanguage. When we Exploration,butlater mention him mainly in speakof Shakespeare's tragedies, I believe we mean connectionwith your views on language. thathe probably intended that the text should be

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read(or listened to) in a certainway and should as werecognize that different transactions between producecertain effects called "tragedy" But there readersand texts at different times under different isnot absolute agreement even about that. For circumstancesandfor different purposes may instance,should a certaintext be classified as producedifferent interpretations, different "works." historyplay or tragedy? New evidence may lead NICHOLAS: WhenI presentthis point of view to my class , us tomodify our ideas about how the texts were theirimmediate deduction is thatanything goes. regardedby author and readers. Whatis your reaction to that? NICHOLAS: Buthow about forthe author's inculcatingrespect LOUISE: I don'tblame them for that Actu- intention? misconception. ally,some postmodernists ordeconstructionists LOUISE: Wecan inculcate respect for the author's intention andtheir disciples have made exactly that leap withoutinculcating confusing assumptions about from"No single, absolute, 'correct' interpretation" howlanguage works. We should talk about the to"All interpretations areequally acceptable." The author'sprobable intention, since we can never narrowview of "comprehension" fostered bythe enterinto the author's mind. That doesn't mean notionsof "correct" or"incorrect" interpretation of therecan be no responsiblereading. Usually, we a staticmeaning hidden in the text has led to a tryto find a coherentorganization forwhat the pendulum,either/or, swing to extreme relativism. signson the page stir up inour consciousness. Thatis not a necessary,unavoidable conclusion. Welook for clues that may reflect the intention Althoughthere isn't a single"correct" thatguided the actual writing process. We may interpretationofany text for all circumstances, that lookfor external "background" information that doesn'tnecessarily rule out responsible reading. We willsuggest or confirm the internal. canconsider some interpretations better or poorer However,even if we have clues as tothe thanothers. Or we can find that readers bringing writer'sintention, perhaps even statements bythe differentknowledge and assumptions orin author,we can't just argue "That's what the author differentsocial and historical contexts may have saysis the intention, so that's what the text 'says'." equallydefensible interpretations. Westill have to decide whether the particular signs onthe pages permit us tofulfill that intention. Moreover,readers may find various possible Meaning "happens" during the interplay interpretationsdifferent from the author's and between the text and a reader. differentfrom each other. While we were talking aboutShakespeare, I was reminded ofwhen 1 was a graduatestudent and was asked to help someone NICHOLAS: Onceyou speak of "better" or"poorer," you are, of whowas doing research on Shakespeare's meta- course,consciously orunconsciously assuming phorsas a possiblesource of clues to Shakespeare's somecriteria or standards by which you are biography.I was supposed to help classify and judgingthe interpretations. countthe metaphors - metaphors derived from nature,law, food, clothing, medicine, etc. If I had LOUISE: Exactly.For example, for me, as anadult, the ; donethis, I certainly would not have been reading interpretationthattakes into account more of the Hamletas a tragedyoras poetry.I would not have textwould have more weight than one that beensharing his experiences. I would have had ignoresparts of the text - suchas aninterpretation potentialcategories such as natureor law in mind. ofa sentencethat ignored an important word, or I wouldhave been scanning the pages for items aninterpretation ofHamlet that ignores the scene toclassify and record - in other words, with a betweenhim and his mother. Or, I wouldnot mindsetakin to that of a scientistrecording data. acceptan interpretation, orparts of an interpre- Importantas the text may be, you can't explain tation,for which no basis can be foundin the thesedifferences bysimply looking at the text. The text.Or, I mightprefer an interpretation that patternof signs on the page remains the same; the organizes,relates, the elements orideas in a more differenceis in the reader's activity inrelation to plausibleor more mature or more discriminating thosesigns. wayWe might find two different interpretations Myinterpretation ofthe text of Hamlet in the equallyjustifiable according tosuch criteria. Unlike lightof today's world, I recognize, must be different thosedeconstructionists, mostexperienced readers fromthat of a contemporaryofShakespeare. And it acceptand apply such broad basic requirements, maybe differentfrom yours. That's all right, so long althoughthey may disagree about others.

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NICHOLAS: I believethat someone has argued that that takes "Selectiveattention" was very important in usback to the traditional view of the text as explainingmy transactional view of reading as a dominant. dynamic,fluid process in time. It helped to show thatreading isa selecting,organizing, synthesizing LOUISE: No,I of tothe text, but mightspeak returning activityIthelped to explain the back-and-forth, thatis becausethe onthe arethe only signs page spiralinginfluence ofthe reader and the text on observable, shared readers. empiricalaspect by theemerging meaning: the creation oftentative the between Meaning"happens" during interplay meanings,their influence on thepossibilities tobe thetext and a reader. as soonas westart Actually, consideredfor the following signs, the modification to whata textmeans, we are and say reporting as newsigns enter the focus of attention. Some- thetransaction wehave just analyzing engaged times,as signsemerge that can't be fittedinto in.We return to the text to see how,drawing whatwe have constructed, wehave to look back to withthe ona personalreservoir transact text, andrevise. wearrived at our particularinterpretation. "Selectiveattention" was also important in ofour andthe Comparison interpretations thedifference between a reading that ofcriteria such as I have explaining application suggested produceda scientific report and a readingthat canlead to self-criticism andincreased reading produceda poem. ability.That's what should be goingon when we "returnto thetext." NICHOLAS: Butwhy the new terminology? Why "efferent" AlthoughI emphasize the importance ofthe and"aesthetic" instead of a choicebetween simply personalaspect, because it had been taken for "scientific"or"poetic" stances? Why the other - grantedand largely ignored, Literature as specialterminology public, private, etc.? and other devote Exploration my publications LOUISE: A theory,since it will be tested,needs precise tothe andbeliefs manypages assumptions terminologyI suppose that it is moreimportant insuch reflection onthe transaction. involved tosomeone doing research, whereas the teacher needsit tounderstand the reasons for NICHOLAS: Thatleads back to the question: How did your mainly the ofthe model. generalview of transaction lead to the detailed pedagogicalimplications That's I believethat one doesn't have to modelof the reading process set forth in The why aboutthe oncethe Reader,the Text, the Poem and later publications? worry terminology, general approachis assimilated.One develops habits LOUISE: WilliamJames and Lev Vygotsky gave me ofselection. formulationsforthe psychological processes or Theterminology wasnecessary for thinking strategiesinvolved. For the triadic linkage of sign aboutthe reading process without being hampered andobject, Vygotsky says that the meaning of a byold unexamined assumptions. For example, sign- I canquote exactly - is "thesum of all the thedifference between the two ways of reading is psychologicalevents aroused in our consciousness implicitlyrecognized bymany contrasting terms - bythat word." The sign is not only linked to a science/art,nonliterary/literary, prose/poetry, referent,but this is embeddedin a complexweb expository/imaginative,etc.These classify the ofassociations, sensations, feelings, and ideas. result,the kind oj meaning produced, whereas I was Encounteringa printed sign, for example, c-a-t, concernedwith the process that goes on during the thereaders have to draw on, select from, the actualreading event. residueof experiences ofthat linguistic sign in Moreover,I had to counteract the either/or theirindividual, past life-situations - a unique mix misconceptionthat throughout any reading event, ofreferent, associations, feelings, sensations, ideas, attentionis given completely toone or the other andattitudes inwhich the sign is embedded. aspect.It's easy to forget that a transactionis an WilliamJames - I don'trecall when I readhis eventover time, and that there is alwaysa mixof PrinciplesofPsychology - William James's ideas kindsof attention todifferent aspects of meaning. about"the stream of consciousness" as a "choosing Attentionmay shift back and forth many times activity"were wondrously helpful. Itbecame duringany reading. The very absorption ina possibleto show that the text stirred up, brought powerfulfeeling may lead to a shiftto reflection intothe stream, a complex welter of sensations, aboutit or about the author's technique, before thoughts,and feelings. "Selective attention" brings returningtothe narrative. I had to have a someelements into the center of attention and vocabularyfor talking about where the attention pushesothers into the background orignores them. wasmainly directed, about proportions.

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Vygotsky,ifI recall correctly, speaks of Asfor the poetic readings, instead of attention "intellectualand affective" aspects of meaning. mainlyto facts and ideas abstracted for use Someof the other terms applied to these two afterwards,thereader of, say, a lyricby Keats aspectsare denotation/connotation, cognitive/ wouldfocus on what was being lived through affective,empirical/qualitative, impersonal/ duringthe reading, on the ideas as theyare personal.None of these, I found, could be used to embodiedin the images, the sensations, the coverall such paired possibilities, so for general feelings,the changing moods. Attention would be terms,I settled on "public" and "private" aspects givento the public, referential aspect, but mainly ofmeaning or sense. Then it was possible to talk tothe aura of feelings and attitudes surrounding aboutthe two major kinds of activity that produce it.I calledthis aesthetic reading. a scientificreport or a poeticexperience. Thetendency inthe teaching of literature has beento turn the student's attention away from NICHOLAS: Thedistinction between scientific and poetic theactual experience, and to focus on presenting seemsespecially hard to define. a "correct,"traditional interpretation, andon LOUISE: Yes,if we look in the text for words or syntax or knowledgeabout technical devices or biographi- contentthat are exclusively either scientific or calor historical background. poetic,we are lost. Instead, we should be thinking NICHOLAS: That thedifference between the two aboutdifferent psychological processes. Hence, I explains lookedat what readers do in those two kinds of stances,but why do youemphasize the idea of an efferent/aestheticcontinuum ? readingtransactions. I decidedthat the proportion ormix of selective attentiontothe "public" and "private" aspects of languagedetermined whether itwould be an Theory should help us provide the efferentoran aesthetic reading. conditions, the contexts, that will foster I lookedfor particular reading acts that would illuminatethe difference between the two kinds of growth toward competent reading. selectiveactivity A favorite illustration hasbeen the motherwhose child had swallowed a poisonous liquidand who was frantically reading the label to LOUISE: Again,because of the pedagogical implications. I discoverwhat to do. She would be transacting with amemphasizing the range of possible stances thesigns, of course, but with attention focused betweenthe efferent and the aesthetic poles. onlearning what to do afterthe reading was over. Betweenthe two poles, there is a sequenceof Theword "water" might appear. She would pay possibleproportions ofattention topublic and attentiontowhat it pointed to, its referent, its privateaspects of sense. I havebeen citing reading publicaspect. She would not pay attention toher eventswhose selective attention clearly placed manyassociations with the word, from sensations themat one or the other end of the continuum. But ofrefreshing coolness to "water, water everywhere" thereare many, perhaps most, reading events with andother oft-repeated lines of verse. She would theproportion falling nearer the middle. Thinking pushthese into the fringes ofattention. She would ofdifferent reading transactions as places on a ignoreher own emotional state, even though continuumsolves the problem most theorists have shemight recall it later. Her attention would be aboutsuch texts as Emerson'sessays, or The Book of centeredon the most abstract referential aspects of Isaiah, or Lincoln's Gettysburg Address. - what toreach whatactions meaning objects for, NICHOLAS: Thatreminds me of useof the wave to the ends. your performafter reading in IRA toillustrate the idea I callthis the "efferent" or"stance" in metaphorsyour essay approach ofthe efferent/aesthetic continuum. theselective process, from the Latin ej ferre, tocarry away.In efferent reading, a greater proportion of LOUISE: I canrecall the metaphors. A scientific reading of attentionis centered on the public, generally "thewave theory of light" clearly falls near the sharedmeanings, and less on the privately felt efferentend of the continuum. And it's easy to aspects.This is the kind of meaning the scientist placenear the aesthetic end of the continuum a aspiresto - impersonal,repeatable, verifiable. I say, readingof Shakespeare's, "Like as thewave makes "aspiresto," because we postmoderns know that towardthe pebbled shore, /So do ourminutes theobserver cannot be completely banished from hastento their end." But how about an author who theobservation. saysof fascism, "There isno fighting the wave of

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thefuture, any more than as a childyou could fight Thequestion implicitly told the students that thegigantic roller that loomed up ahead of you." youread a poemin the same way you would read a Thisis a powerfulaesthetic metaphor, meriting railroadtimetable. Ithappened to be a description attentiontovivid images and feelings. However, ofa scenewith cows standing ina brook.Would sincethe author's purpose is political analysis and thestudents have paid more attention todetails persuasion,the reading, though near the middle suchas thenumber of cows or to the feelings of ofthe continuum, should be efferent. Attention calmand quiet that would create a mood? A tofactual and logical aspects should remain question,like all methods and strategies, also dominant,tojudge whether they support this implicitlyteaches and reflects itsunderlying, often appealto submission. I might have used Silent unacknowledged,unexamined theoretical base. Springby Rachel Carson as a middle-of-the- Thisanecdote exemplifies, perhaps in rather continuumillustration, with a morepositive blatantform, the failure to do justice to this matter answerto such reflection. ofadoption of an appropriate stance. Whatwould be more influential insetting the reader'sstance, for example: the teacher's statement The either/or response is the ridiculous thatexpression of"personal response" would be welcomed,orher addition that there would be a that this constitutes a denial assumption five-minutequiz before such discussion, "just to that skills are essential. testwhether the work had actually been read." The generalreliance on mechanistic, multiple-choice testingreinforces theimplicit pressure totreat Muchof our reading falls into this middle literatureas a bodyof knowledge rather than of area- fromnewspapers, political speeches, potentialexperiences. Failure to take this matter of writingsabout social problems, advertisements - stanceinto account and to give a clearsense of manykinds of writing with a strongaffective purpose,or the giving of mixed or contradictory appeal,but where the predominate stance should signals,produces, ingeneral, shallow, unproduc- be efferent.We have to help students learn to tivereadings, and uncritical acceptance of handlethe affective as well as cognitiveaspects of emotionalappeals or unsound analogies. meaningduring every reading event. This applies Notonly the teacher, but the total school tothe teaching of reading across the whole environment,thetypes of teaching strategies, and scientific/literaryspectrum. And it's the middle of thetypes of assessment influence the student by thecontinuum that creates the main teaching theirtacit "messages" about what is really problem.How do we help students develop the important.The transactional approach provides abilityto adopt the appropriate stance? thebasis for thinking about both the direct and theindirect, tacit effects. NICHOLAS: Youmention teaching. Could we look more closelyat the application oftheory to practice? NICHOLAS: Is thatwhy you prefer "transactional theory" to "readerresponse theory"? LOUISE: Studentsdon't need theory. It's the teacher who needsto assimilate the theory in order to act on it. LOUISE: Precisely.I recall first formally using "transactional Oncethe transactional approach is assimilated, theory"inan article in 1969.In the reaction against itspedagogical implications are not complex. theNew Criticism inthe 70s and 80s, the term Theoryshould help us providethe conditions, "readerresponse" came to be applied to a wide thecontexts, that will foster growth toward rangeof theories that actually differed intheir competentreading. Most important, theory treatmentofthe reader/text relationship. Some, shouldhelp us toavoid methods and strategies suchas thepsychoanalytic critics, were mainly thatmay satisfy short-term goals but obstruct subjectivist,reader-oriented. Thestructuralists and growth. deconstructionistswereultimately, likethe New I'llrepeat a storythat I've told many times. Critics,mainly text-oriented, treating language as Whenmy son was in the third grade, he brought autonomous,without reference toauthor or reader. homea workbook.From across the table, I saw Text-orientedtheories are least likely to challenge thebroad margins and uneven lines of text that thetraditional pedagogy. ledme to exclaim, "At last, your class is reading WhenI publishedThe Reader, the Text, the a poem!"Then I readthe question that prefaced Poem,I called my theory "transactional" to ■ it:"What facts does this poem teach you?" differentiateitfrom both of these approaches and

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toemphasize the reciprocal importance ofboth attitudesthat are the residue of having known readerand text. I keepon insisting on this point UncleBob. That's what the importance ofthe becauseof its pedagogical implications. personalaspect adds up to - freelydrawing on whatthe signs stir up in the reservoir ofpast NICHOLAS: We'vealready talked about some pedagogical experienceinorder to make personally significant implications,such as thevalue of students' newmeanings. That's simply basic to all aspects expressionofpersonal reflections ontheir ofevoking and reflecting onmeaning - such reading.Could you elaborate further? as thechoice of stance, reflection onthe evoked LOUISE: I'mreminded ofa collegeinstructor ina freshman experiencefrom a broader perspective, recognition coursewho indignantly told me, "Your theory ofpersonal bias - basicfor growth. doesn'twork. I a andtold class assignedstory my NICHOLAS: these whatis viewof the to it that could Along lines, your interpretpersonally, they speak literature-basedcurriculum? freely,but the class was a failure.No onespoke up,they waited for me to interpret for them." I LOUISE: "Literature"seems to be a rathervague term - recallthis episode because it illustrates my fears, that'swhy the concept of the aesthetic/efferent first,that people will think of the transactional continuumhad to be developed.Some people approachwithout concern for the total picture seemto think simply of using complete works, andthe students' readiness, and, second, that ratherthan anthologized snippets. Others theywill think of the transactional approach too whoespouse this program assume works muchin terms of a specificpedagogical strategy. writtenprimarily tobe experienced,tobe read Thiswell-meaning teacher didn't understand aesthetically.Atany rate, therein lies the source thatprobably these students had, for twelve years, ofpotential problems, and therein lies the need beenled to be insecure readers - not to respect forat least setting up somedanger signals. theirown thought processes. Moreover, they AsI havefor years felt that the aesthetic hadprobably been reading in order to answer wasneglected or underemphasized inour multiple-choicefactual questions on literature; society,my first impulse is towelcome what theyhad learned to treat literature as a bodyof seemsto be a pendulum-swingeffort todo justice knowledgerather than potential experience. tothe aesthetic. But my next thought is of the Orperhaps some of their teachers had invited importanceofproviding, as early as possibleand personalinterpretations, thenspent the rest of the as consistentlyas possible, a sense of alternative classperiod demonstrating their inadequacy in waysof transacting with texts. comparisonwith the teacher's interpretation. That Ifthe literary work is usedsimply to sweeten collegeinstructor needed first of all to understand theteaching of skills, if traditional methods of whathis students were bringing tothe transaction teachingand testing are continued, the whole withhim as wellas withtexts. He neededto create valueof the emphasis on so-called literature is theenvironment fortransition tothis approach. negated.It will lead as usualto the feeling that, I gatherthat, increasingly, students are coming inschool, the really important things are the skills tocollege accustomed toreading freely. But my tobe acquiredand demonstrated. The value of secondfear remains, concerning a narrow thetext seen as a sourceeither of information or emphasison the personal as a pedagogicalstrategy, experienceis lost through its use primarily as the ratherthan on the general approach. Sometimes, basisfor teaching skills. eventhose teachers who respect the students Theeither/or response is theridiculous as readersmay make a narrowview of personal assumptionthat this constitutes a denial that skills responsean end in itself. Ifthe reading transaction areessential. It's a questionof how they are to leadsstudents to talkand write about specifically be acquired.So manyyoungsters acquire them personalmatters, that is probablya good sign, automaticallythat it is wasteful toput everyone especiallyearly in the transition tothis approach. throughdead end drills, instead of providing them Butin these days of what seems, in print and TV, atthe proper time for those who need the more almosta confessional mania, the danger is tothink systematicdrill. The important thing is thatthe thatthe job is done,that that is thefinal goal. readingbe learned as a meansof making meaning, Personalresponse, tomy mind, has to do with eitherpredominately efferent orpredominately theentire process of response to the text. Students aesthetic,and that skills be acquiredas toolsin a don'tneed necessarily towrite about Uncle Bob, reallymeaningful activity The problem, then, is theyneed to be freeto draw on ideas, expectations, tocreate a situation inwhich students from the

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beginningand throughout their education, see receptivefrom the very beginning. Inthe late 80s, readingas a purposiveactivity. whenreading and writing experts organized a Peoplein the primary years have often been conferenceonthe connections among the various extraordinarilysuccessful atthis. Habits and languageactivities, I was delighted tobe askedto skillsare built up throughmeaningful reading contribute.After that, I decided that I couldno experiencesand opportunity toexpress reactions longerwrite about reading without also dealing andreflect freely, verbally or otherwise. Some morefully with writing. Perhaps I should add that textshave been written toincorporate drill thereverse also holds: I findI can'tdeal with ina skill,but they provide really meaningful writingwithout talking about reading. experiences.Long before the fourth-grade, the Bothwriter and reader transact with texts, studentsunderstand that reading is a matterof bothcompose meanings. That is why all the inferring,creating meaning. transactionalconcepts hold for both. But there aredifferences that should be inmind. The NICHOLAS: reluctanceto formulaic kept Despiteyour encourage readerstarts with the author's text and tries to methods, haveaddressed teachers about you builda consonantwith it. The writer instructionatdifferent academic levels, for meaning startswith a blankpage; as thetext emerges on example,in their professional journals. thepage, its author is itsfirst reader. Reading is LOUISE: Yourcomment leads me to think back. It seems partof the writing process. tome that I triedto suggest a whole new way of Actually,I find there are two kinds of thinking,that I wasconcerned with indicating the authorialreading - first, expression-oriented, conceptsabout language, about the process of whenthe writer is testingthe emerging text in makingmeaning, about the processes of reading thelight of a moreor less clear intention; and andwriting - understandings thatwould enable second,reception-oriented, whenthe writer theteacher to choose among possible patterns of readsthe text in the light of whether itassumes instruction,possible paths that would enable their knowledgeor experience potential readers may particularstudents to advancetoward increased notbring to it. abilityto transact with texts. That usually involved Bothtypes of authorial reading may bring changesin the teacher's assumptions and attitudes, revisions.The more experienced the writer, the as wellas changesin classroom procedures. But it morelikely these two types of reading will occur leftthe implementation, thespecific strategies, to throughoutthewriting process, and the more beworked out by people working atthe different automaticallythey will alternate. Sometimes the levels;primary, elementary, secondary, college, writermay have to decide between words that are anduniversity personallymore satisfying, more expressive, and I havegreatly admired the many books wordsthat will be moreeffective links with the andarticles that have shared the experience of linguisticand life experience ofprospective implementingsuch an approach at specific levels, readers.A wordmight be tootechnical, ora whetherthe first grade, the high school, or college, metaphorbased on the game of chess might not sometimesinyear-long, day-by-day detail. beunderstood by many potential readers. Thetraditional preoccupation with reading in NICHOLAS: Wehave been talking about reading, but in recent theearly years seems to be waning as moreand articlesand presentations you have dealt with moreschools recognize the importance ofwriting. readingand writing. Theopportunity toengage purposefully inthese LOUISE: Yes,I havealways been interested inthe processes parallellinguistic activities should reinforce habits involvedin creating, as well as readinga text. thatare important for both writing and reading. Also,I wasusually teaching both reading and NICHOLAS: Whatare you working on now? writing.My transactional view of language applies toall modes of language behavior. A speaker LOUISE: Actually,I'm having a problem about priorities. assumesa listener,and a readerassumes a writer, I shouldbe finishing anessay on the relation andvice versa. betweenwriting and reading for an IRA handbook. Atfirst, I wrote almost exclusively about ButI maynot meet the deadline, because I feel that reading,because that is what I wasasked to do. moreimportant than anything else right now is the Fortunately,many composition teachers didn't politicalsituation. Asa teacherand as a citizen,I haveto be addresseddirectly, and they were very feelguilty about using my energy on other matters

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so longas I cando anything,slight as itmay be, to Towarda cultural approach to literature. (1946). College English, influencewhat's happening inthe political arena 7(8),459-66. rightnow. Lately, my time at the computer has GuestEditor, Intercultural relations issue. (1946) English Journal, beenspent writing letters to legislators and drafting 35(6). suggestionstoofficers ofour professional organi- Theacid test for literature teaching. (1956). English Journal, 45(2), zationsabout ways of increasing our political clout. 66-74. Mybelief in the importance ofthe schools in a Literature:The reader's role. (1960). English Journal, 49(5), democracyhas not only evolved but also increased 304-10,315. (Rpt. in Education Synopsis, 12(2), 196. 1-6.) overthe years. In 1938,democracy was being Thepoem as event.(1964). College English, 26(2), 123-28. threatenedbyforces and ideologies from outside. Literatureand the invisible reader. (1970). In (Eds.unknown), Today,1believe it is againseriously threatened, Thepromise ofEnglish: 1970 distinguished lectures (pp. 1-26). thistime mainly by converging forces from within. Champaign,IL: NationalCouncil of Teachers of English. Fromlocal schools to state standards toSupreme Thereader, the text, the poem : The transactional theory ofthe literary Courtcases, education has become an arena for work.(1978; Rev. ed., 1994). Carbondale, IL: Southern thisideological struggle. Special interest groups IllinoisUniversity Press. havebeen organized toachieve domination of Whitman's"democratic vistas" and the new "ethnicity." (1978). localschool boards; topics such as methodsof YaleReview , 67, 187-204. teachingreading or allocation of funds to research "Whatfacts does this poem teach you?" (1980). Language Arts, havebecome political issues at all levels. 57(4),386-94. Atthe risk of sounding pompous, I have said ActI, scene1; Enterthe reader. (1981). Literature inPerformance, thatmy efforts toexpound my theory have been 1(2),13-23. fueledby the belief that it serves the purpose of Thejourney itself (1981). Leland B. Jacobs Lecture. New York: educationfor democracy. Ultimately, ifI have been Schoolof Library Service, Columbia University. concernedabout methods of teaching literature, Theliterary transaction: Evocation and response. (1982). Theory aboutensuring that it should indeed be personally intoPractice, 21( 4), 268-77. experienced,itis because, as Shelleysaid, it helps On theaesthetic as thebasic model of the reading process. readersdevelop the imaginative capacity to put (1981).Theories ofReading, Looking, and Listening (H. R. themselvesinthe place of others - a capacity Garvin,Ed.). Bucknell Review, 26(1), 17-32. essentialina democracy,where we need to rise Thereading transaction: "What for?" (1983). In R. P. Parker & abovenarrow self-interest andenvision the broader E A. Davis(Eds.), Developing Literacy (pp. 118-135).Newark, humanconsequences ofpolitical decisions. IfI DE: InternationalReading Association. havebeen involved with development ofthe ability Viewpoints:Transaction versus interaction, a terminological toread critically across the whole intellectual rescueoperation. (1985). Research inthe Teaching ofEnglish, spectrum,itis because such abilities are particu- 19(1),96-107. larlyimportant forcitizens in a democracy. Language,literature, and values. (1985). In S. N. Tchudi(Ed.), Ofcourse, the schools cannot do thewhole Language,Schooling, and Society (pp. 64-80). Proceedings of job,but they are essential. We are already over- theInternational Federation ofTeachers of English. burdenedas teachers,yet as citizenswe need to Portsmouth,NH: Boynton/Cook. promoteand defend the social, economic, and Thetransactional theory of the literary work: Implications for politicalconditions that make it possible for us to research.(1985.) In C. R.Cooper (Ed.), Researching response carryon our democratic tasks in the classroom. toliterature and the teaching ofEnglish (pp. 33-53). Norwood, NJ:Ablex. Theliterary transaction. (1986). In P.Demers (Ed.), The Selected Bibliography of Louise M. Rosenblatt creatingword (pp. 66-85).London: Macmillan; Edmonton, L'Idéede l'art pour l'art dans la littératureanglais pendant lapériode AB,Canada: University ofAlberta Press. (Papers from an victorienne.(1931). Paris: Champion; New York: AMS Press, internationalconference on theteaching of English in 1976. the1980s.) Literatureas exploration. (1938). New York: Appleton-Century; Theaesthetic transaction. (1986). Journal ofAesthetic Education, (1968;rev. ed.). New York: Noble and Noble; (1970; 2nd ed). 20(4),122-28. London:Heinemann; (1976; 3rd ed.). New York: Noble and Literarytheory. (1991). Inj. R.Squire (Ed.), Handbook ofresearch Noble;(1983; 4th ed.). New York: Modem Language Associa- onteaching the English language arts (pp. 57-62). Boston: tion;(1995; 5th ed.). New York: Modem Language Macmillan.(Rev. ed. forthcoming). Association. Literature- S. O. S.! (1991).Language Arts, 68, 12-16.

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Thetransactional theory: Against dualism. (1993). College English, 55 NicholasJ.Karolides isa professorofEnglish and Associate Dean at the (4),377-86. CollegeofArts and Sciences atthe University ofWisconsin-River Falls, Thetransactional theory ofreading and writing. (1994). In R. R. wherehe teaches literature, composition, andmethods ofteaching Ruddell,M. R. Ruddell, & H. Singer(Eds.), Theoretical models English.His publications include Reader Response in Elementary andprocesses ofreading (4th ed.) (pp. 1057-1092). Newark, DE: Classrooms(1996) and Banned Books: Literature Suppressed on InternationalReading Association. PoliticalGrounds (1998). Readers,texts, authors. (1998). Transactions ofthe Charles S. Peirce Society,34 (4), 885-921.

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