Interview with John Wood Eden, Wyoming April 16, 1988 Interviewer: Shannon Azumendi

SA: When and where were you born?

JW: I was born near West Plains, Missouri in 1906, October 13. SA: What towns is that close by to that?

JW: West Plains is the county seat of Powell county about a hundred mile and east of Springfield, Missouri. It's just above the Arkansas line there a ways not too far, just by the Mason-Dixon Line.

SA: Okay, urn. Were you born in the hospital or at home?

JW: No, at home. They had homesteaders there and uh, they were nine of us that grew to adulthood. There's ten of us all told. One died in infancy. But my grandmother was a licensed midwife and uh, so she delivered babies whenever one came along. And we were all born there at the homestead.

SA: Okay, urn. Why did you come to Rock Springs?

JW: I came out here to be a cowboy as great ambitions went.

SA: How old were you at that time?

JW: 19 turning 20.

SA: Okay.

JW: Well, things were pretty slow, I guess they were slow everywhere really, but uh, work back there was, was awful scarce but I did, I liked to break horses. I broke a lot of horses in my lifetime. I reckon I was looking at the wages, too, when I couldn't back there.

SA: What made you decide to come to Rock Springs or Eden?

JW: Well, uh, I had me a job here but uh, with Mr. Derth over here. My brother come out here before I did and he got me a job. Uh, Mr. Derth. I went, worked for Mr. Derth the first day of June irrigating in 1926. SA: What were your first impressions or memories of the town?

Well, I wanted to find the Eden Valley Dairy so I come down 2

on the milk truck and so many broken languages there I could hardly understand. I wondered what kind of place I was getting into really but uh, I did go back there. ' I had a cousin, an Italian dentist call me from Saint Louis and he wanted me to come back and take a business course but it was just as hard as farm work, which I did. I went back and took bookkeeping,and accounting, and commercial law. But I didn't have any guarantees of a job. I went out on a thirty-five dollar a month job up from sixty dollars for board and room. So I could get sixty dollars and my room and board out here working so I, I came back out here. I told a lot of them that we didn't have modern math in those days and I said that I was, didn't think things was going to come out with that kind of figurin'. It wasn't really a loss of money to me to take that course really, but I, I didn't want. I showed my wife how to keep books and she does a good job. I file my own income tax I always have 'til this year and, and it's such a complicated affair I went down to IRS and got some help down there on it this year and . . SA: I don't blame you.

JW: I But, uh, the law has come in pretty handy for me even if I didn't practice law. A lot of things that's come in my lifetime that has been beneficial to me like nobody owns water or air really, and uh, when uh, ... put in this dam up here, when it spills they can't charge us that water. You've gotta put water in a container before you can charge it to anybody. The same way with air. Now the service stations with their air compressors could charge you for the air in your tires if they've a mind to but that's a drawing card for 'em but uh, when this reservoir covered a con­ tainer, as long as it wasn't spilling could ... charge us for that water. But when it spilled we got free water if it uh, when it went that way . . so it as I see it, has been wasting it money and in all and seemed pretty much like the waste uh, when I went on that job to get them to pay my expense why it seemed like I had my heart and money just throwed down the drain but it worked out all right. But I do love it out here. We have some bad winters but uh, it's always cool in summertime. You can sleep here pretty good in summertime. And uh, I like it real well. SA: That's good. What did you use for transportation? JW: Well. Saddle horse mostly when I first came here.

SA: Is that how you came out? JW: No. I came out on the train. But uh, uh, the train fare 3

from West Plains, Missouri to Rock Springs was $26 back in 1926, I went back a few years ago on the bus. Round trip ticket was $185. So quite a little difference. SA: Yes. Say the inflation. JW: The year my wife and I was married in '37, bacon was 29 cents and now it's a dollar twenty-nine. Uh, quite a little difference in price of things. You could get coffee for twenty-five cents a pound and a loaf of bread for five and ten cents and now a loaf of bread's about a dollar I think.

SA: Yeah. um, when did you first have cars in the area? JW: Well, they was a few had uh, Model-T Fords here when I came and it was 1928 I went to work for John Hay and Livestock Company. I opened that place up, first place you came into I opened that up out of the sagebrush there. I've got a picture of me in a Model-T Ford Roadster I had and it's just a little old cabin there to live in. When the wind blew there I'd have to wash my dishes before I could even get a meal. Mr. Hay promised me a house and uh, so I got up there in September one morning and snow all over my bed and all over my floor so I went in and seen about my house. He told me to move over to the Chambers place. That's six mile east of here. Sort of a nice house there but we got two foot of snow on the level that morning so I took my Model-T Ford wouldn't get out of there so I was stuck over there. Uh, a trapper came in and stayed all night with me once in awhile. He told me said "John, I saw some of Hay's horses out here not very far. You can take my saddle horse and go out and bring him in so you can have some transportation. So I did. I went down and broke some to ride and some to work and thought I had a way to get me out to get the mail and some groceries once in awhile. Uh, I was stuck there all winter. SA: Who was the trapper?

JW: Uh, Bill Meyers was his name. We always called him Trapper Bill. There was two Bill Meyers's here in the valley and one of 'em had one arm. Often we'd call him Wingy Bill and then Trapper Bill he'd ride this in summertime and here. And in wintertime he'd trap. He was pretty good.

SA: Were there, were there many trappers in the area at that time?

JW: Not too many. Uh, some of the local guys would put out a few traps but not really have a trap line. 4

SA: Do you remember what the, the price of a pelt would get then?

JW: Well, uh, I got in '28, I got $15 a pelt for once I got once I was over there after I got a horse broke. I trapped some over there. And uh, I had a few pelts. I got $15 for it then. SA: Umm, how was the town laid out when you first got here? JW: Well, it looked kind of like uh, they might of put an old hen's feet in some ink and they got her tail and pulled her across there to design Rock Springs uh, Ha Ha. Streets gone every way nearly. SA: And how did the miners get back and forth to the mines? JW: I, I really don't know. Uh, if fellas had cars down there. I don't know for sure. But uh, Dines and Wenton and Reliance, All them were working and Stansbury and things and ... Superior and out west uh, south of town uh, Sweetwater mine was working too. They actually had their own transpor­ tation probably. SA: Have you ever heard any, any stories about, about how the names of the streets were chosen? JW: No, I don't believe I have. SA: Okay, was there indoor plumbing in and what did you use for toilet paper? JW: Well, Montgomery Ward catalog or Sears and Roebuck. SA: I can remember my mother saying that too. Was there indoor plumbing? JW: Not out here. SA: No? Where did you get your water supply? JW: Well, we dug a well and ... John Hay. So I helped Jack Barrington he built a well down there and down there the water wasn't too good, but we used it anyway. SA: What did you use for a bathtub or did you? JW: Well, we took a dive in the canal. SA: Where did . . ? 5

JW: Or we did after my family here. We just uh, had a washtub that we took turns about using it. We all got our baths. Catherine used a basin with the girls first. Then she'd get her bath and I'd get mine.

SA: Where did people shop for groceries and other supplies? JW: Most of 'em went to Rock Springs. There was two stores out here but they're a little higher than they was in Rock Springs. Most of 'em went to Rock Springs. They'd go in on the milk truck and Eden Valley Dairy had a milk truck come here and a lot of dairymen here in the valley. And they'd go in on it and pick up their groceries and some had their own transportation and they'd go in and get groceries.

SA: Did the town have many bars, brothels, or burlesque shows?

JW: No, uh, Rock Springs there's uh, dry and there was a lot of probably a lot of bootlegging done and a lot of wine made down Union Pacific store used to get grapes in the carload and there was on train pretty soon uh, customers and workers and they made their own wine. I know we could go down there and we delivered eggs and cream and stuff in Rock Springs and they always wanted us to take a drink of wine. Mrs. Bagavich, she's still living. "Wine don't bother you," she'd say. Though we'd always turn it down and.

SA: Was there much violence or any shoot-outs in town anywhere?

JW: No. There was still a few with six-shooters but they, I never heard of any crimes or anything.

SA: Did you know of any local outlaws?

JW: Well, I knew of Bill Carlyle and Butch Cassidy was just they come out as I came in this country. He was worked down in the Browns Park area wherr I was in Rock Springs, but he worked South Pass, too, and Calamity Jane she worked South Pass. I heard that Jesse James got out here, but in fact he

never did get this far out. Kansas and Oklahoma and Missouri was where he worked and uh, and Jesse James, he never did get this far out.

SA: What churches and denominations had uh, followers in the town? JW: In town? Well, they was the Episcopal Church, they were the American Baptists, and uh, there's the Methodist Church. And I think that uh, that was about it really. 6

SA: It is true that many denominations in the early years shared the same building and uh, minister and priest?

JW: I really don't know. We had a community Sunday School

here, here in the valley and got a preacher. But no denomination here really. Mixed denominations out here so we passed it around. Our superintendent of Sunday school a good many year, a Nazarene come out and the American Baptist pastor come out also the uh, Episcopal and Methodist would come out so, so we jogged it around and so tried to please everybody.

SA: Were there any um, floods or dust storms or other natural disasters that happened out here? JW: Oh, this new ground, when you thawed it up you'd have some dust storms but get the sagebrush off it. You have this until you get some humus in the soil like uh, get a crop of alfalfa or something to get it in there to keep it from blowing. But uh, we did have some dust storms.

SA: No floods or anything?

JW: No, no floods. Well, I'll have to back up a little on that. 1934 had a cloudburst out here. And it went over the highway right down here where this set of draw comes, this little part down the hill there and also it washed out the bridge there. John Kilpepper right there uh, by KRKK. And uh, had to go around after the bridge I think. That's the only time I knew of a real cloudburst out here that . . .

SA: Did any epidemics hit the town and how were they handled if they did?

JW: Well, 1918, why the influenza hit all over the U.S. really. I wasn't out here at that time but, uh, had a big loss same as did everywhere with the flu. I, records show that they

more people died from that than was killed in WWI. And it was pretty bad. I had one family who moved up here from Colorado down at Cripple Creek. He, he was pallbearer for three funerals in one day he told me, so it was a pretty bad thing. And they had over here at South Pass I'm pretty sure they had quite an epidemic right there.

SA: Where and to whom did one go for medical help here?

JW: Well, we went to Rock Springs. Fact of a matter, my wife had her appendix out and with Dr. Sanders I believe. Dr. Sanders, uh, Arbogast, I believe was the name doctored 7

down here. He probably ... deseased I think. What I heard.

SA: Because of the ... in town what were some of the remedies and drugs that were available? JW: Well, they've got uh, it grows south of Rock Springs there. It's called Mormon tea and it's real good. Uh, you uh, for a cold or anything. Well it's a neutralizer really. The ... I used to work with, he got the flu and wanted to see if I could get him some, so Bill Allen, lived south of town there Bill got some, brought it in there and Shorty Coleman and I picked it up there. It don't taste real bad to drink it while it's warm but it gets cold, it's not too good really.

SA: What do you do? Is it a leaf and you just boil it in water?

JW: Uh huh. Have some near sagebrush. Mr. Hay he said the leaves off a sagebrush would knock away the ills really. SA: Hmm.

JW: or most anything. Neutralize it.

SA: Was there a union hall and or a cooperative store and, and uh, what transpired in these places.

JW: Well, I don't know what they had in Rock Springs we didn't have our community hall out here 'til the uh, well, WPA workers built it first. That was back in about uh, in the early 30's somewhere along there.

SA: Were the~olidays that the)were there holidays that the whole town celebrated?

JW: We uh, the 4th of July we used to have a fair out here at

Farson, the county fair and had the old fair building right

where the service station is ~his side of the store. iat's where the old fair building ~ded to stand. And we had a community picnic then and everybody took in food and then we played ball in the afternoon there. Back for I came they had rodeos, too, out here. I uh, never had any after I came here. And in Rock Springs then on Labor Day I remember we used to have a chicken fry when sage chicken season opened. Had it right here on this place right out here. And we had lots of fun. We sang and had a minister give a sermon out here too. There was a lot of singing. Just had a community affair. And the wardens, they didn't bother us everybody brought in chickens that morning. Chickens used to be more 8

plentiful than they are now. I've killed chickens with an irrigation shovel when I've been irrigating. In fact, I brought in as high as eight a day that way. But uh, everybody killed some chickens and we had a big chicken fry and of course food to go with it.

SA: Do you, oh I'm sorry. Go ahead. JW: Bill Sweeney, he built Mr. Derths house over there he's quite a guy to laugh an he came out with a chicken on him an it was going by one and I was going by the water and I had a shovel an so he had a shot gun he went up through there and I went up through the grain field an I stepped on a chicken so caught it and finally laughed about that. He had his shot gun and I don't think he got ·a one, really shootin un, but he thought that was something, me stepped on that chicken.

SA: Do you remember a holiday that celebrated the advt of the 8 hour day? JW: Well, that's the Labor Day, the only day we celebrated, that day. Our day started out with. Had that in Rock Springs and they still do I think. I was rodeoing about then an I knew some of them cowboys that rode in there Sunday ropers.

SA: What were the funerals like and where were the people buried? JW: They were buried in Rock Springs. So, Tony Hay, he was the first one buried up here uh, '27-'28. Well, they started the cemetery up here in '26 but I don't think anyone was buried in it until about '27-'28. Now, some of the children that was passed away here was buried over at the Washington. That's six mile east of here and their bodies were brought over and put in this cemetery afterwards. Catherine's father, he was buried in Rock Springs an uh, son-in-laws and all after we got the cemetery out here. Why they was buried in steel vaults so there was no problem to bring the body out here, bringing them out here not too far. The funeral was kinda of a sad affair which they always are. I know they, they, we had a ... in Missouri thought much about it but then when Catherine Wright died, why a couple of fellows said well we gotta have black ties to wear. And back home we'd lay um out. Well, in Missouri we never paid any attention to that. Black is for sin and white is for pure so I don't know. I just figured they was puttin judgment on the person that died whether they was a sinner or whether they was Christian or not, you know.

SA: Were there Orientals in towns, in town, and blacks? 9

JW: Oh, yeah, not too many blacks but there were a lot of Orientals.

SA: Did they mix with the other town people? JW: Yes, I think so.

SA: Do you have any idea how and where they lived?

JW: Well, I did know where Chinatown used to be called-uh-kinda the east part of town. I'm pretty sure if I remember right. That's where the Chinamen lived in.

SA: Did they have any unusual customs?

JW: Oh, not too many. Kept off to themselves pretty well.

SA: What holidays did they celebrate? JW: I really don't know.

SA: Were they made welcome by the other residents? JW: Oh, yeah.

SA: Do you have any idea what kind of jobs they did?

JW: Well, they worked in the mines, uh, a good many of them did, an, uh, the Chinese, the Chinese come out here and built first reservoir out here and I uh, put uh, . . . on the bottom where the water comes out. It washed out kinda uh, still see some signs of writing up there on them walls at that time.

SA: Did you ever see any signs of Indians in or passing through town?

JW: Yes.

SA: Where were they going and what were they doing here?

JW: I really don't know. I've been told that this was their hunting area back in the early days and they couldn't spend the winter here. It's too cold an they went back over to Piney Valley for the winter. But uh, I've seen um come through. They used to camp over here at the Washington Ranch. My sister lived over there, and uh, they camped there, but she tried to get some pictures of them but they didn't want to take no pictures. They stay there a day or two then they'd leave out. Some say they went on dow# 10

Firehole down south of town. I don't know where they went. SA: Did they exhibit any unusual customs? JW: No.

SA: How were they dressed? JW: Well, their hair dress was mostly what I noticed. Was men and women, both had their hair braided. It was hard to tell a squaw from a buck really, by uh, lookin at the hair. You could hardly tell. They dressed pretty much the same, really.

SA: The same as what? Each other or the same as? JW: Each other.

SA: Urn, what means did they have for travel?

JW: They usually had a buggy in horse or maybe two horses to it. One seated buggy, you probably know what they are.

SA: Urn, what games did you play as a child?

JW: Well, baseball was one of my main games I liked. I played baseball and coarse we played other games like Hide-Go-Seek and uh, Dare Base an and uh, little things like that an uh,

SA: Was Hide-Go-Seek played the same way kids play it today?

JW: Pretty much so, yeah.

SA: What about Dare Base? What's that?

JW: Well, Dare Base was a, you dare anybody to surround your base really or make a mark in front of your base and dare 'em to put a foot across that mark an there's a few ways to play. Some of got to surround your base an uh, two girls I know particular, they could out run any boy going to school really and they could really make it around there, make it around. They chose up sides to play the game an uh, tried to get these girls on their side. Course, one of 'em would get one and the other'd get the other, really, but they was real fast an they would make their own surround that base like. Say this was the base they would go up there around it. Sometimes we'd get quite a ways from the school ground before they'd get around an they try an make it but that's all in the game like keeping fun make another round have to go back another time. I I

SA: What did you use for a base?

JW: Well, just a mark.

SA: Just a mark?

JW: couple of marks, right, that you stood in, 'bout as big as this table (4'X 5').

SA: Did children of different ethnic groups or religions or races play together?

JW: Oh, yeah.

SA: Did they mix or marry?

JW: Not for awhile, but eventually they did.

SA: Where did you go to school?

JW: I went to the Hopkins School. It was about ten mile west of West Plains, Missouri. I walked two and a half mile nearly ever day to school. I got tired of walking, I'd run once in a while.

SA: What was the classroom atmosphere like?

JW: Well, we did, teacher to keep everybody in line. The boy got outta line, she'd make urn sit with the girls for punishment and it was embarrassing to him. The rest of them would make fun of him, so that got order in school. Uh, uh, most of the kids' parents told 'em if they got punished in school they'd get punished when they got home so that worked, too. Uh, so we regard the teacher really back then is different than it's different than now. They wouldn't hire a teacher unless she was a Christian a of a Christian faith or something and so that's the way it is.

SA: What sports did you play?

JW: At school, baseball. I always figured like this kinda as a child was born if an analysis could be made it's probably got a question mark on its spine. It's a babe really. It's a cryin' in it's crib there and it hears footsteps approach­ ing. Why, footsteps approaching. Why, they'd be a calm and they'd stop then. They'd start you know. I think that question mark comes on down when you start to school. I wondered why I had to go to school and why I had to go to school and why I had to go in and study, why I couldn't go out play baseball all, all the time in school. But I think that was the question mark set in quite a few kids' minds really. Even that I would lose control and go off the wall. I think the question mark was still there. Why we asked 12

ourselves why we ought to take the blood of the plow man and things like that but that's getting to be quite uh, uh, the go anymore and frequent.

SA: What books did you read?

JW: Well, we had a first reader we used. We read uh, oh, about Bo Peep and, and Little Boy Blue and things like that in the first grade and we learned the alphabet and numbers and things like that.

SA: Did you use the Blue Back speller? JW: Yes.

SA: How many grades were in one classroom?

JW: Eight. We had eighty students and sixty in regular attendance and one teacher taught 'em all from 1st to 8th grade. I got a whipping the last year I was in school in 8th grade. I was good on the high jump and the teacher wanted us to go to the fair so we were on the high jump and some of the others on the ice and one thing and another. And we didn't want to go and we got off the school ground and played ball and so she whipped hay out of us. I went back one time after. I called her up and she was a good teacher and she wanted to know who that was and I said, "Well, I was that boy you whipped in his 8th grade. An she said, "John I hated to whip you." I said, "Ma'am, I knew all the time I had it comin' ." She was glad to hear me say that.

SA: Were boys and girls expected to act in different ways and how was this enforced?

JW: Well, yes they acted in different ways. We played together but you know sex never entered into our minds or anything like that. We, we just had a big time together. The girls had a team, a baseball team, and they'd play the boy and maybe the school teacher would be a man. Why he'd catch for the girls and one of the older boys would pitch for them. But, they'd hold us a pretty tight game playing baseball, and we played baseball. It wasn't softball. It was a hard ball. SA: What were children expected to do at home?

JW: Well, they had chores to do, cows to mild, chickens to feed, eggs to gather, and different things like that.

SA: Where was your house and what did it look like both inside and out? JW: Well, our house at first was just a one room trapper cabin 13

that was built by the first homesteaders there, but he added on to it as the family grew. You might say an uh we had to divide. We had boys' room, of course, three boys'and a girls ' room for the girls and Dad and mother had their bedroom. And then we had this cabin, used it for the kitchen and there was a breezeway we call um or a dog trot between it an the house and uh, we would in the summertime use that breezeway for a diningroom and of course it would be too cold there in the wintertime, but uh, summertime, that was what we used it for.

SA: Were you ever sick as a child?

JW: I don't know as I ever was. I, I've never heard mother say anything about me ever being sick I had one sister that was sick and that was kind of like vice disease. I guess they called it flux at that time. You don't hear that anymore, but it's not a kidney disease. It's, I think they took Black draught for it. It's orange yellow.

SA: Black draught?

JW: Yeah, draught.

SA: How were birthdays celebrated and what type of presents were received?

JW: Well, they usually made a birthday cake for whoever's having a birthday and sang "Happy Birthday" to 'em. But hardly ever any presents were given 'til later on.

SA: How were children disciplined?

JW: Well, we had a sweet biddy bush that set right uh, stood right by the yard gate. Had some nice little switches on it Mother used them on us and sometimes she used peach tree limbs. We always called the peach tree limb tea. But that put us in order. I remember one time my brother and I was splittin wood. We got into a fight. Mother saw us and called us in. He said "I'm gonna act like I'm dead. She'll quit whippin me." So, so she started with him first. He was older. He dropped down and said, "You killed me! You killed me!!" so she kept pouring it on and he come alive pretty quick. I laughed and Mother thought I was laughing at her so she poured it on me real hard, too. I've thought about that lots of times.

SA: How were holidays such as Easter and Christmas celebrated?

JW: Well, mother colored a lot of eggs for Easter and we always had to see who could eat the most eggs on Easter for one thing. The 4th of July, why they uh, had to get some ice from Fort Collins place, sold ice down there. With ice, 14

we'd make our own ice cream in the shade of the trees out there and mother'd make lemonade an, an, we'd get some .

was 5 feet there wasn't much . That's the way we'd celebrate that. The neighbors would come in and we always had food, fried chicken, one thing and another, a big feast.

SA: What about Christmas?

JW: Well, one time particular I remember was we had a Christmas program there at my home. Well, this was Easter, I guess. I remember I was in a play and I was Christ and uh, then I went along with Christ's crucifiction. And a Christmas, why, we had that Christmas program there at our place. And one of the neighbors there was Santa Claus there and handed out the gifts and everything. Uh, the lady down there at Elk Mountain, her and I grew up within three-fourths mile of each other. She come up here an visited with us on our anniversary her and her husband. She was telling me about this Christmas program at our place. George Worth was Santa Claus. Had to have a Santa Claus suit and face and put it in a trunk and my sisters would get it out and scare me with it. I was a little feller. They'd scare me with that false face.

SA: What sort of Christmas presents did you get?

JW: Well, usually some oranges or candy or our stockings filled with candy and oranges and stuff like that.

SA: Did you decorate a tree and if so what did you use? JW: Yes, we used popcorn, string popcorn to decorate the tree. And then we'd fix a star for the top of the tree on top.

SA: Did you ever go caroling? JW: I don't remember us going caroling.

SA: Have you ever heard of a sagebrush Christmas tree?

JW: I've heard of it. I read about one here not too long ago. Around Browns Park area they had a sagebrush Christmas tree.

SA: What was dating like back then? JW: Well, the boys always asked the girls for a date, but they was kinda bashful and afraid they'd get turned down. Maybe sometimes, but that'~ aJthat's maybe to church group singing. We'd gave all day singing and singing there was nice a lot of times, And we'd ask. The boy get nerve to ask the girl if he could walk her home, and if she accepted then that was what he done. 15

SA: Did you ever go anywhere else on dates, other than walking them home?

JW: Well, we went to baseball games and places like that an by horseback then.

SA: What did your family do for fun or on vacation?

JW: Well, we didn't have much vacation really, on the farm there. But we, we had lots of fun in Sunday School. They'd have all day singing sometimes and a big dinner. Then, then, uh, they , a lot of them come to our place, from Sunday School. There was eight or nine of us kids and we always had it planned. We'd invited to come home with us, too, and play ball.

SA: Did you ever go camping or hunting or fishing?

JW: Yes, we'd take a wagon an go fishing. I remember one time special I guess I never will forget it. My brother-in-law, he bought a box of cigars an so he gave me one so I lit it up and I told him, "Watch this old steam engine." I was

a-makin' smoke go. After awhile, the old steam engine slowed up. I got sicker.

SA: How old were you then?

JW: I was about six or eight I guess. I vomited up all my breakfast and I was really sick on that one. I didn't feel like eatin' nothin'. We had a picnic dinner and then fishing after that. But back then we could fish with nets. Just stick that net in and sometimes we'd have 35 fish in it.

SA: Did you ever go to dances?

JW: Yes.

SA: Where at? At dance halls or-

JW: No, at a home usually. Square dance.

SA: Did drinking ever go on at them? JW: No, they was a lot of moonshiners in that little part at that time and uh, people did get,get whiskey and moonshine and some guys get drunk down there and have an all day sing. In Rock Springs one time saw a drunk there and he put his pipe in his hip pocket and caught his pocket on fire. And I was just a little kid, but I always remember that we'd kinda crawl around after that watchin' him drunk. We'd never seen one you know. We got quite a kick out of that. I 6

Set his pocket on fire.

SA: Who usually played for the dances?

JW: Well, there's usually an adult there who played the violin.

SA: Did you ever see any famous people or dance bands?

JW: Well, there was a group there in West Plains, that a, they had their own music and all, and they put on cowboy clothing. But, uh, we didn't enjoy that as much as we did our own Ho Down dances out in the country.

SA: When and where did you meet Catherine?

JW: I met her over at the Washington Ranch about 1927, I guess it was. She was over there visiting my sister and staying over there and I went over there for Sunday dinner. An uh, so then we was washing the dishes, taking care of the dishes and I was hitting her with the dish towel. And she was hitting me an my uh, sister said,

"That's a sign you're gonna get married. They always told me when you fight with dish towels." So never thought anything about it then.

SA: How long after you met her did you marry her?

JW: Well, uh, that was '37, uh, 10 years I guess.

SA: What was the wedding ceremony like?

JW: It was just the Justice of the Peace.

SA: Was it just in his office?

JW: Yes. SA: Were you advised on family planning?

JW: No. SA: How many children do you have and when and where were they born? JW: Two of 'em were born in Wyoming General Hospital and one was born at night at the Payne Ranch down here in the south part of town. And, uh, our oldest uh, she was born in uh, '36. She was born, our daughter and the other one was born in uh, '39 and then the last one was born in '46.

SA: When did you move onto your ranch here?

JW: 19~3. In 1943 I leased this an in 1944 I bought it. And, I 7

uh, this fellow stickin calves under Mr. Grand's nose and I told him if he got a chance to sell it for cash he better take it. I couldn't pay him cash. He said, "You don't have to have, I want you to have it" so I got it on 4% interest and went to the bank and borrowed $1000 to make a down payment on it, so he know I intended to keep it. So we have done alright here. We sent three kids to college an uh, be and business college a uh, uh, oldest she worked for Continental Oil for 30 years and lets see, she took early retirement. She got a little hobby shop, I guess you'd call it, a yarn shop down in Houston. Her and her husband separated so she uh, down that by herself. So uh, other daughter she worked in usually in doctors offices, receptions in doctors offices either dentist or doctors of some kind. She still does and my youngest daughter she worked for Rocky Mountain Bank there in Denver. For a good many years, she was assistant manager there. And after she married and family come along she took a year's leave of absence. She hasn't went back. She, she, runs a little service there from her home. Uh, gets clients for an insurance companies and she gets a big commission on that, gets to take care of the kiddies there, too.

SA: Did your family listen to any special radio or television shows?

JW: We didn't have any television here not even a when I was a or when our, our kids were growin' up. But we did have a radio. Leonard Hay brought us out a radio. We did have that, but we didn't get too much on it.

SA: Did you live with your parents or establish a separate household? JW: No. We lived at Hays. We was workin' for Byran Hays when we were married. SA: Did you belong to any social clubs like the Elks or anything?

JW: NO. SA: What was your first job and what were the conditions on it like? JW: My first job here in the Valley was irrigating. And, uh, that was about interesting to me and is to figure out the high places on your ground and get water over them an cause the waters always run to the low places and have to some­ times build dikes to get it over the high places, but that was pretty interesting to me and I raised good crops when I was first out here.

SA: How long did you do that? 18

JW: Well, I done that in '26, September of '26 then I come back out here in the summer of '27. And then '28 I went to work for Hays. I done the same thing down there. I took that ground out sagebrush down there and leveled some of it before the horses and that's all I done there, too. Some of the post are still there that I set in 1928.

SA: What kind of machinery did you use?

JW: Well, I used a tractor and a plow 'cause I plowed the sagebrush with. I welded that, had it welded on. John Push, put an extension on a plow share so it would be sure to cut that sagebrush clear out. Then I raked it with a team of horses and a dumper and cottonwood so I could burn it. Had the line rollers on east and west so I could build fire on the west end while that fire went right on through. I didn't have much problem sagebrush to do then.

SA: What were your wages?

JW: I got, uh, $60 a month from Hays and also $60 from Mr. Derth but we got more than that, half of that and board and room.

SA: What was, what all could you buy with $60 a month?

JW: Well, I was young. I could buy almost anything. I blew my money about as fast as I made it.

SA: Did they deduct some expenses from your wages such as for · electrical usage or anything like that?

JW: No. SA: No? Was it dangerous to work on your job?

JW: Well, breakin' horses was dangerous. I, I liked it so I think a lot of times how silly I was, but, but it is dangerous work. You get throwed. Why you get hurt and nobody around. Why, you can lay there for maybe for two weeks a for anybody find you.

SA: Were there many injuries?

JW: Not very many, no.

SA: Were you ever injured? JW: I never did have to go to the doctor. but I did get throwed one time. Got a rock right here in my chest. I've got a knot here yet, but I didn't go to no doctor.

SA: Were there any major work related deaths or disasters on your job? 19

JW: No.

SA: How many hours did you work a day?

JW: Well, just what ever it took, sometimes 16, sometimes it wouldn't be so long. It would just depend. You had to take care of that water and if you didn't have a nice set for it why you had to take care of it 'til you had a nice set so you could get that night's sleep. Uh, uh, lot of times I'd be up at four o'clock in the morning go to my water and then there's cows to milk, too, and chores to do.

SA: How many days a week?

JW: Seven.

SA: Did you have holidays off or paid vacations?

JW: Well, we uh, usually went in to the rodeo for a day or two down here at Labor Day and we'd have a day off up here and a day off for the chicken fry. Why, we had that off. if we had the water taken care of, we'd have the night off so we could attend those.

SA: Were there bosses or foremen monitoring your work?

JW: Well, I was a foremen. I also I worked that on a farm.

SA: Did you have to watch over the, the other workers? JW: Well, probably did but they usually knew pretty much what to do. Told 'em that, and why they'd go ahead and do it. If you tell 'em something ordinary on only day and tell 'em how to do it, the opposite and clear the day why they do it the boss's way.

SA: And you told me before that you didn't have anything to do with the unions?

JW: No.

SA: When you first moved out here, um, what was the house like?

JW: Well, this house here was just this part right here. We put like a new house on it. It was a all that pretty cold really in a log house but uh, they had, newspaper for insulation here in the ceiling. And just 2x2's across here for joyce. I built pert near a new house inside the old one. I put 2x6's across here and I've got oh, uh, insula­ tion pads in between 'em and then I've got c caulk but this is the first and last taping I ever done here. And we got one place up here where it's cracked but I think the stove, 2 0

the heat from the stove caused that maybe but the rest of it, I thinks holding pretty good. Then we had a swinging door here between this and the kitchen and I cut that out made that all cabinets. Here then I got her some cabinets to put in and got the water put in here about 40 or 50 of um.

SA: What did you do for water before that?

JW: Well, there was a pitcher pump in there, what we call the bathroom now. It was just a little utility room back then and she pumped water from the well with it an I, I put a pressure pump in and she faucets and everything in now.

SA: What did you do for appliances like refrigerator, stove?

JW: I put up my own ice here in for in the wintertime to east me all summer. Go up to the reservoir and cut ice 'bout 400 pound blocks an bring an lay in straw out here in this stoggie building. And that would last me all summer. If I got about 40 blocks. And we got an ice box here cut a piece ice off and put it in the ice box. Keeps stuff cool. This is the heating system. We've had is a heater here. And used to have a coal stove in the kitchen but we've got a gas range in there now.

SA: Who handles the finances, you or Catherine?

JW: Both of us.

SA: Who disciplined the children and how?

JW: Catherine done the most of that. See uh, I've always said that the child's indebted more to the mother more than they are the father. Mother always changed the dirty diapers, and washed 'em and then if they had a little rash on their bottom then she'd see their little bottom was powered with talcum powder or something. If they got a little hurt out playing, why they'd come to her. If they just pinched their finger or something, she'd give it a kiss and well it's gonna be alright now. If it was bleedin' she'd put a band­ aid on it and also give it a kiss then send you side us around, then go on back out an playing.

SA: Did she sew your clothes or did you buy them in town?

JW: She patched a lot of my clothes. Yes she did.

SA: I mean to start with did she make them?

JW: No. No, I bought them to start with. She, she did mend them for me. 2 I

SA: Did you maintain a garden out here?

JW: Yes, we used to have a garden.

SA: What did you grow?

JW: We growed potatoes, cabbage, onions, spinach, beans, peas. We had lettuce, radishes and that was most of it, I think. Turnips, we had turnips.

SA: Was it a financial help?

JW: Oh, yes. We gave a lot of garden stuff away when people come out here.

SA: Om, what chores do you do in and about the house?

JW: Well, if anything goes wrong in here that she has trouble with, why I'll try to fix it. I throw a hand or something an she had trouble we used the cold water tap in the bathtub all winter an it's kinda hard to turn. So probably we ought to turn alittle and she done most of that really. She took the end of it off and squirted a lot of WD 40 in there and it still turns kinda hard. Not much that I help out with in here, but if something goes wrong with the pump or if the pipes freeze up, why I'm good at gettin' them thawed out.

SA: What political party did you support and why?

JW: I support the Democrat party. I'm democrat, but I don't hold true to it all the way along. But I do at the primary but sometimes I mixed up at the ... actually. I've got more compliments an that from different states on our senators in Washington. Than different states have said we have got the smartest men in Washington than the other states have. Coming from Missouri, and uh, Mississippi and Arkansas, Texas, and Colorado. Different places where they really praise us for our men who we have in Washington. I do think we have good men in Washington. Uh, Al Simpson don't look like his dad, but he, he reminds me of his dad a lot, but his characteristics is a whole lot like his dad. And then I saw what I mean in Casper. I think when Miller was Governor her was still the top fella but he didn't sign an ovation when he came in says he didn't need to do that. I'm just plumb outa here. I always like that an Al's the same way. He's just like his dad that way. I, don ' t have any trouble gittin' any response when I contact Cheney or Wallop orAl either one. I've contacted 'em on this uh, takin that little Snake over into the North Platte. Well, they need that water on down. They're tryin' to take our water away from us here to go on down to that Central Arizona Project. But that Little Snake goes on into the Colorado River eventually, and they're goin' to take it across to the plant. But, uh, pert near every spring they 22

have to sand bag the Platte there in Casper and the Little Snake has its run-off at the same time. Well I, I took that up with our congressmen and I've been told that I got that blocked. Then on this slanted deal why working on it don't know whether I do or not. Uh. The geologist up here at Denver said, "No way this little valley salt the Colorado." Actually, though, I think I let you read that one story that

I wrote about that. That, I wrote that back in '65. Well, I was in Washington. I, uh, I, I never tried to ask for anything unless it's justified. Just ask for something little ole thing that don't amount to a hill of beans. I don't fool with. Don't bother with things like that, things that I feel is justified. I, I've went to Washington on it an, an I've got results on a lot of things, the main thing.

SA: Good for you. When did you first vote and why?

JW: I voted in 1928. The first time I voted at was when, when Al Johnson run against Hoover and I didn't want to see Hoover in. But uh, he did get in.

SA: Do you remember Teno Roncalio?

JW: Yes.

SA: Ed Hersheler?

JW: Yes.

SA: Paul Wataha?

JW: Yes

SA: Bob Johnson?

JW: Yes.

SA: Do you remember other prominent Democrats when they were beginning their careers? JW: Well, there's a, you take here in Rock Springs where Peter Vase was in a crowd. He's a very good friend of mine. John ... whos uh, county treasurer at one time and Ben Carr he was treasurer and also assessor, too. I think at one time. And, uh, there Lou Carrigan, I knew Lou pretty well, I know both officers down there. Lou uh, works the county uh, uh, clerk when I got my license to get married. That was quite a few of them. Roosevelt I, I saw Roosevelt. He come in there in his time was passing with the "New Deal" and it worked out pretty good. Got things straightened out pretty well. Harry S. Truman, uh, my cousin from Missouri would put everything he got in history with him. He's as good a President as we've ever had really. Some of them asked 23

Margie what uh, his dad would say like there was a none. Nixon, said will dad uh, a blankety blank. I imagine he would of, too.

SA: Was there a democratic machine in Sweetwater County and when and why did it end?

JW: If they were I didn't know about it.

SA: Which party was more responsive to the working class?

JW: Well, I guess the democrats were. Reason Sweetwater County is democratic. I just, that's my guess. I have no theory to base it on really. Only that .

SA: Which party best responded to your needs and why?

JW: I haven't got no differences but I really they both have. When I was on the Civil Defense Board, was tryin' to ge control here but the local people. Hathaway was Governor at that time. I called him up an we got called to Montrose, Colorado which wasn't very good. But my goal was to get coal her in Sweetwater County for Sweetwater people. While we was sittin' on the best vein West of the Mississippi River here in Rock Springs and as well as I dislike Ann Strand's language, she helped me out on getting that through. And, and, She was one of the representatives of Sweetwater County at that time. We did get that Swanson mine started where we get local coal here. They're shipping our coal to Memphis, Tennessee. And we're havin' to do without here. I didn't like to see our resources go1n away and us doin' without here in our own home state. So I finally got that one goal through. I'm proud of that anyway. We reached that just the local people but uh, that is I mean the city people but uh, the sheepman if they didn't have coal out by their herders why they wouldn't have no herders very long. They couldn't bush up there. Sagebrush to keep the fire and keep the camp warm so they need coal out there. That was one of the main things I know. Hill he wouldn't furnish coal for his camp out there one time and they got caught out there in a bad storm. They burned corn and after that he supplied the coal to his uh, camp. SA: Were there ever any Socialist or Communist activities in the area?

JW: Not that I know of.

SA: Was there an Independent Labor Party?

JW: No, not that I know of. 24

SA: Was politics a clean profession in Sweetwater County?

JW: Well, I kinda, that's as good a question as I can a politics

being clean. There's always someone throwin ' mud. SA: What was the average campaign like?

JW: Well, it uh, wasn't as near expensive as it is now. And they run on their own merits pretty much which I was proud I think people do that today stead of spendin' all this campaign money. We'd have a sounder government really. SA: Were you an active party member?

JW: Well, no not particular.

SA: Who was the most famous politician that ever came into the area?

JW: Well, Joe Hickey was the, he was governor. He was up one one time. He was seamed like had everthing pretty much in line. He was a democrat and a good soul. I mentioned about Simpson. He was a democrat but they was both had a good heart really I, our problem was their problems.

SA: Which Simpson?

JW: That was All Simpson.

SA: Which politician did you like best and why?

JW: Well, I got along with Gale McGee real good. But he, he's been real good. They even come out here one to, to meet him. And even called first. Bureau of Reclamation come in here on this water situation. We've had quite a lot of problem vying for our rights on water.

SA: Was he a governor? JW: No. He was a United States Senator.

SA: Was the KKK active in this region?

JW: What?

SA: Klu Klux Klan? JW: No.

SA: Did women regularly vote and were they a force in politics? JW: I think the women voted. This was the first state that had woman's suffrage. Women had a right to vote and I think they · Llt uh, m

SA: Do yc .hink they

JW: Well

SA: What ed Stat

JW: Well ng with nuoc.~ = - . uh, course he's got a differen"t. mau ...... _ _ ·e than what the other Presidents had to deal with, too. ~ w1ink Gorbachev is uh, more intelligent man really than what Krushchev was and some of them, but they, I've often heard people say will you can't trust those foreign countries. I sometimes wonder if those foreign countries can trust us really way things are going here, but uh, I think he's tried to do pretty good. Course we always have pros and cons with any President in. I've heard people that, uh, vote the democrat ticket straight even if there's a dog on it, but, uh, I think that's foolish, really. I, the only reason I change if I got a good friend that's a republican, I'll support him. And I know he'll do his job. I, I, uh, not so high and mighty that just go down and take it straight all the way through for some of 'em I don't know, really.

SA: What was this area like prior to WWI?

JW: Well, I was 11 year old before WWI was on but I believe we could call ourselves more of a Christian Nation than what we can today. The reason I say that there was a ... demand for wheat, for boys in the service. Back then you couldn ' t ship meal across the ... by ship it'd mildew and you couldn't use it. We ate cornbread here at home, an we had flour for our boys in the service. Well, at that time Kansas had the biggest crop of wheat they ever had before or ever had since. I think the Lord took care of us on that. We can call ourself a Christian Nation but even the Dakota's produced a lot of wheat. Nebraska and Colorado an Eastern part of Wyoming raised a lot of wheat. I think they took care of us. You could drive through the Dakotas with the ones that told me after WWI a lot of vacant farms up there. But they had the biggest wheat crop back then. A lot of people out in Missouri came out to the Dakotas for wheat allowance. Got better wages ... and even Kansas, too. But uh, I believe we could come near callin' ourself a Christian Nation then than we can now. It ' s just a hop and a skip and a jump now to get over to those foreign countries

now with planes and all. But uh, it's kinda like Woodrow 25

they voted all the time. Some of 'em don't vote yet, but

uh, most of um do now, I think.

SA: Do you think they were a force in politics, or do you think they voted the way their husbands did?

JW: Well, I think they voted the way they saw fit, really.

SA: What do you think of the current President of the United States and his policies?

JW: Well, there's a marriage two ways I think he's got along with Russia good as any President we've ever had. But uh, course he's got a different man to deal with over there than what the other Presidents had to deal with, too. I think Gorbachev is uh, more intelligent man really than what Krushchev was and some of them, but they, I've often heard people say will you can't trust those foreign countries. I sometimes wonder if those foreign countries can trust us really way things are going here, but uh, I think he's tried to do pretty good. Course we always have pros and cons with any President in. I've heard people that, uh, vote the democrat ticket straight even if there's a dog on it, but, uh, I think that's foolish, really. I, the only reason I change if I got a good friend that's a republican, I'll support him. And I know he'll do his job. I, I, uh, not so high and mighty that just go down and take it straight all the way through for some of 'em I don't know, really.

SA: What was this area like prior to WWI?

JW: Well, I was 11 year old before WWI was on but I believe we could call ourselves more of a Christian Nation than what we can today. The reason I say that there was a ... demand for wheat, for boys in the service. Back then you couldn't ship meal across the ... by ship it'd mildew and you couldn't use it. We ate cornbread here at home, an we had flour for our boys in the service. Well, at that time Kansas had the biggest crop of wheat they ever had before or ever had since. I think the Lord took care of us on that. We can call ourself a Christian Nation but even the Dakota's produced a lot of wheat. Nebraska and Colorado an Eastern part of Wyoming raised a lot of wheat. I think they took care of us. You could drive through the Dakotas with the ones that told me after WWI a lot of vacant farms up there. But they had the biggest wheat crop back then. A lot of people out in Missouri came out to the Dakotas for wheat allowance. Got better wages ... and even Kansas, too. But uh, I believe we could come near callin' ourself a Christian Nation then than we can now. It's just a hop and a skip and a jump now to get over to those foreign countries

now with planes and all. But uh, it's kinda like Woodrow 26

Wilson said, science has made us neighbors, really. But it makes us stay close to each other, you know. So it is pretty much that way. But a lot of this fighting that goes over, overseas. They, take Israel and Arabs have been fighting ever since back in the old Bible days of Abraham and David and Isaac and them. Ishmael was born of a bonds mothers an uh, Isacc was born by Sarah, Abrahams wife but they's been fixin' there between those two countries ever since then and they've been in battles all the time. So to solve all those problems would I, I, don't know what's going to be the answer. Looks like we might be, uh, on the up and out. Uh, but uh, Russia's pulled our troups out of , I can't think of the work I want to say,

CW: Afganistan.

JW: Afganistan. An we're pullin' out some of ours war material, too. You can't have peace and stick your hand out to shake hands with somebody and have a sword behind you in the other hand. That isn't peace really. You got to show 'em that you love 'em and mean that if your goin' to have peace. To have peace, I believe God said, uh, "You couldn't have, . call ourself a Christian Nation like we can now.

SA: What were the 1920's like?

JW: Well, 1920's. there was stockmen. Livestock got after WWI uh, broke a lot of fella's ... an cattlemen, but uh, back in a, oh, a, Roosevelt came in with a "New Deal" why he kinda pulled 'em out and I, uh, I was afraid after WWII. It had us swamped again. But we didn't. Didn't have it, uh, things tapered off uh, pretty much on the level cattle didn't drop I know some fellas sold their cattle maybe get caught on the swamp like they did in '21. But it didn't come but its but, uh, prices ... stayed pretty good. I, uh, last time I talked to Carl Jorgenson I remember what he told me. The Jorgensons are back after WWI, they pert near went under and John Hay bailed 'em out. An give um a chance to make it. But Carl, last time I talked to him, it was a few year ago, he said, "People think us stockmen are a dirty risk. We're just dirty all us." Carl died here awhile back not too long ago.

SA: What about prohibition?

JW: Well, what the people thought an I don't know if this paid off or not, they figured they'd just rather have this revenue off of this moonshine whiskey. Instead of havin' moonshine they'd sell it legal. But I don't believe its balancing out, really. A broken home and different things that happen today is off settin' their gain on their revenue. If they would weigh those things, uh, the deaths, the murders, and things its caused. Course, they don't. Government don't have to stand that, uh, if someone goes out 27

there and gets drunk and kills somebody, it's the other fella that hasta meet his own expense. But it's, uh, you can't put a, a price on a life. Really, you can't/ Uh, a life is precious to a good many people. Some people I guess it isn't, but a good many people it is. That's just like the old guy committed suicide and I dearly loved Joe Gatti. I thought a lot of him. It just a hurt me really to hear that he done that. But there's a lot of people that are unrest today. It's ... all this , these things.

SA: It's a shame. How did they make or buy booze during the prohibition time?

JW: Well, there are different ways. I gone back from here in my Model-T Ford one time. It broke down there about 20 mile this side of Wichita. Had to get it fixed. Took 'em about two weeks to get it fixed. Fella wanted me to go out. Uh, wanted to know if I wanted to go out and help thrash. An I told him yeah, I'd go out. I was single and uh. He said he wouldn't be ready to thrash for a little while but, says, I thought maybe you'd wanna go out and plow corn. You ever plow any corn?" I said, "Yeah." You ever work any mules, I said yeah, so I went out to, to work for him the separator man was workin' on the grain separator to gettin' ready to thrash. He told me Joe had a still somewhere. He didn't know where it was at. But said he'd worked for him for seven year. Said he had a still. Well, Sunday came. Why, uh, Joe told me said if anybody comes around tell 'em I'll be back after while. Well, there's several passin' 'em in there and, uh, the separator man told me Joe took this in gallon jugs and uh, hid it somewhere in his fences there. Out by the trees you know how they have the ... They'd come by and he'd collect the money and he'd tell them where to go find the jug of whiskey an they did. And this fella that done the separator said, "I think he's still's in the attic but I don't know." But uh, different ways of boot­ legging. I, one time I was in Missouri. There was a Negro there, Tom Folley. Only Thomas was short so they's a federal man come in there and was tryin' to find out moonshiner so Folly got a shoebox in his arms standing on the street so he thought he'd find out if his nigger, maybe find out information from him. "Yes sir I think I could probably get you some whiskey." You know, how he talks. "I need a dollar an a half then." And uh, so the FBI gave him a dollar and a half. "Just hold this shoebox until I come back," so he was gone and never did come back. Finally he got curious. Decided he had to see what kinda pair a shoes he had to open that up an there's his whiskey in the shoe box. They had different ways of, of gettin' around it up here. Duke Wellin, used to have a store here. He boot­ legged some here. An Martin Vandemer, used to drink quite a

bit. Guy came in there and Duke didn't know him. So he said, "Do you sell liquor here?" Duke said, "no," so Martin 2 8

was standin' up there at the front window lookin' out. He said, "Why don't you take your sign down outta your window then?"

SA: Do you remember the arrest of Rock Springs officials in 1930?

JW: Oh. 1930, no I don't.

SA: How did the Depression affect this area?

JW: Well, they got by pretty good here. They uh, the mines still worked an uh, an , the farmers had a little bit a drop then but uh, they didn't complain too much really. They, says I say could get uh, uh, bacon for 29 cents a pound then. And, and everything else was cheap along the same way. You get "airway" coffee for 25 cents and Safeway would grind it there. Right before your eyes there and different things like that. Fresh. Cheap. You could get a sack of onions, a 50 pound sack of onions for 50 cents and potatoes was cheap. So they just tried to stay within their means really. Stead of overstepping so they did pretty good.

SA: Did, were there bread lines here?

JW: Uh, not that I know of.

SA: What about Hoovervilles?

JW: Hooverville, well, we Hooverized us. I say we ate cornbread so it could send flour across to the boys overseas. It didn't hurt us really to eat cornbread here at home. I like cornbread myself. Some people don't care for it.

SA: What were the work conditions like during WWII?

JW: Well, most of our younger men was goin off to war. Anybody hirin' help had to hire an old man that to set in his ways when you tell him anything, or hire a young kid who didn't know nothin'. That's about the way it was then. But the kid, you could always teach a kid. But some would say it was strong heads and you can't teach an old dog new tricks, so it's kinda hard to get through to an older man and toll him what to do. SA: Did your family fare better than usual?

JW: Well, not, not better but we fared alright.

SA: Did you use ration cards?

JW: Yes, we had ration cards on different things. Sugar, I think. On flour and cars and gasoline. And things like 29

that.

SA: Was there a Black Market?

JW: There's always black markets, uh, on rationed beef, meat. But there's always a black marketing on meat that way.

SA: Did you serve in the armed forces?

JW: No. I was too young for WWI and too old for WWII.

SA: How did you survive the depressed 50's?

JW: Well, I just tried. We just tried to spend less than we took in. We made it alright. The Lord promised to provide our every need, so we figures if we couldn't pay for it, we didn't need it so we just didn't overstep.

SA: What was this are like during the boom?

JW: Well, the boom, put a little burden on our schools,uh, mostly I think. Then what I mean by the boom, the boom was over then the ones that left here had the burden to bear like we'd make our school ... grown farther, farther than in our life time. Still had the debt to pay an uh, those established here had to pay the debt then.

SA: Was "Sixty Minutes" correct about the corruption in the town?

JW: Well, I've used a question mark on that quite a bit. I, I, hear sometimes I think that it was and sometimes I don't think it was.

SA: Did you see people living in the desert in R.V.s and tents during the boom?

JW: Well, yes down here in Rock Springs out this side of town. They, they was in tents there for a little while and the got after 'em. Pawn their stuff off or something I don't know quite what.

SA: Were prices high and where did you shop?

JW: Well, we go to Rock Springs to do our shopping. These stores out here are I figure make right close to 100% uh, on their investment which is too much. Uh, but, uh, Safeway used to claim they operate on 3 % margin but uh, I, I, think they're doin' that now probably.

SA: Do you think crime was a problem during that time?

JW: Not as much it is now, I don't think. ------

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J~ ~.""·t.,L(_ttl \...): ~:... c~ was the, ~--·~(.~ ~~ ... " >erth for $30 -'"'-; ~ .y-v ~--t.-d~<,. . . ts no use '······{_.,~·-p~ .t - "\,..-(,"".~A..; ~··'1!~, <~ ~ ./'L;r""<-'; l,. t pay me either. bo, ~"' wac a ,) 'WtJ ...... :.. ~- ..,.. ~~<-v" ~ l4_.__, and room so I just stayed on. There was a woman got out. She couldn't collect over 60 days back wages an that kinda throwed me a little bit. I went in to see about that. An they said no. Lady was supposed to sign against the property but I . . . I just went back out and went back to work.

SA: That was during the Depression?

JW: Yes.

SA: Has the town changed for the better or worse since the boom?

JW: Well, we like to look at it as better but I say I've still got a question mark as to where it is or not.

SA: What's your best memory of Sweetwater county?

JW: Well, we used to uh, could go in with our eggs, and cream and butter an stuff an people was glad to get it in town there, but uh, Bens Foodliner lost ... surplus in what we had in way of eggs. I got a letter from the University that I had to come down to uh, Laramie take a course in candling the eggs and things like that and I've candled eggs ever since I was as high as this table. And for I could sell 'em so I uh. We wasn't solicitin' people, people solicited us really. We were one uh, the Green River Law as far as that goes but wasn't ... People asked us to bring them in. We didn't go and solicit anybody, but, uh, I'm pretty sure that a -----end tape.

JW: Matters in there, I was unloadin eggs there. We saw um. My eggs never did make the, the counter really. Mrs. Seppi She'd ask if I brought eggs. Tell her yes. Well, I git on the phone. Mine never made the showcase at all. People come there and got 'em but, uh, he must a been the guy that complained about me. And get the University and the state but I had to take candling course and, and also I had to date my eggs and uh, had to uh, give the state 3 cents a dozen on every dozen I sold. Keep a real record of it so we 30

SA: Were there many prostitutes in town during that time do you think?

JW: I've heard there were. They never bothered me but uh, Dr . . . . catered to them a little bit, I think. Come in which I said about a Dr .... the Doctor for those venereal diseases pretty much . . what he specialized in really.

SA: What was the biggest problem during that period of time?

JW: Well, uh, getting the money for your day's work was the, uh, biggest problem really. I worked for Mr. Derth for $30 a month wages. He couldn't pay me but there was no use quitting him going somewhere else. They couldn't pay me either. So, it was a job and getting my board and room so I just stayed on. There was a woman got out. She couldn't collect over 60 days back wages an that kinda throwed me a little bit. I went in to see about that. An they said no. Lady was supposed to sign against the property but I . . I just went back out and went back to work.

SA: That was during the Depression?

JW: Yes.

SA: Has the town changed for the better or worse since the boom?

JW: Well, we like to look at it as better but I say I've still got a question mark as to where it is or not.

SA: What's your best memory of Sweetwater county?

JW: Well, we used to uh, could go in with our eggs, and cream and butter an stuff an people was glad to get it in town there, but uh, Bens Foodliner lost . surplus in what we had in way of eggs. I got a letter from the University that I had to come down to uh, Laramie take a course in candling the eggs and things like that and I've candled eggs ever since I was as high as this table. And for I could sell 'em so I uh. We wasn't solicitin' people, people solicited us really. We were one uh, the Green River Law as far as that goes but wasn't ... People asked us to bring them in. We didn't go and solicit anybody, but, uh, I'm pretty sure that a -----end tape.

JW: Matters in there, I was unloadin eggs there. We saw um. My eggs never did make the, the counter really. Mrs. Seppi She'd ask if I brought eggs. Tell her yes. Well, I git on the phone. Mine never made the showcase at all. People come there and got 'em but, uh, he must a been the guy that complained about me. And get the University and the state but I had to take candling course and, and also I had to date my eggs and uh, had to uh, give the state 3 cents a dozen on every dozen I sold. Keep a real record of it so we 3 I

just quit. People come out here an git 'em now. Dan Baker used to come out here from Reliance. Said he couldn't eat those store eggs and come out here and get a . . well I, my eggs are all candled and I figured this way I'm not against the pure food. Don't get me wrong. But I think this inspector if his inspected some of my eggs and found something wrong get after me. Am if ... Olsen and Jensens .. get after them, too. Now evidential Olsen Jensen had · some bad eggs. Dan Baker drove clear out here. George Bebe used to drive from Green River out here to get eggs. He couldn't eat those store eggs he said, so evidential something wrong with urn. But my chickens had good feed. They had plain feed. They have, I, fed I feed corn, oats, and barley to urn, an, and it's mashed. It's steamed and mashed. It's not ground. And, uh, we never find a bloody egg in there. And, uh, cooking at all here. Never have found a bloody egg. So if people were getting good food what I was getting at is I'm not against pure food. I know there's people try to sell anything if they can get a price out of it, but uh, but, I never want to do that and I used to could drop the antlers out a veal, take it in there to Ben's Foodliner, it's a pity too . . use the butcher there. Well, they stopped me from that. I had to build me a slaughter house here and have running water but, uh, . had the snow out here to dress a beef out here on really for cleanness, but I, I, took a . blade to Johnny Gosher and he done the same thing. He charged me $5 to drop those antlers out. Took the veal over to Ben's and so Cribs ask me . . they couldn't operate no more. So they was interested about $80,000. That's a clear outfit for it's by specification . but, uh, I just, quit. Crigs asked me one time, said, "When you gonna bring us in some more beef?" I said, "I can't do it according to law. Saw won't let me." He said, "I know it's been no good beef here since you quit bringing it in." That's what he told me. So I, I, like the people to have good food. I've got girls in the city and I like them to have good food and I've got a lot of friends in the city. I like them to have good food to eat. I, I don't want to try and poison anybody. I think but they've got a rule of thumb you know and that's what they're goin' by. It's the same way with the soil conservation. They're trying. They got thousands of farm failures an tryin' to tell the successful guys how to farm. And they're making them ... is all it amounts to. They uh, tell ya, you got to go to a sprinkler system . . to an acre an the hay an, uh, you can't, guys can't sell the hay that they've got out here now. Really why raise more. But, uh, they don't know they don't know the whole story. That's the trouble and uh, they, they just gotta a rule that they go by an he takes care of the state of Wyoming. I'd be foolish to go in Goshin County and try and tell those guys how to farm over there. They'd be foolish to come over here and try to tell me how to farm here in Eden Valley. Uh, we have problems 32

here that they don't have other places. An their lower over there an the humidity is a little higher over there than what ours is here. And as far as irrigating and things like that, they don't use as much water, and uh, they don't have a freeze out like we do. They do have the grasshoppers over there that give them more trouble in Goshin County that we don't have here. It's things like that. I'd go ... grower how to grow beets that he's been growin' all his life . stick my neck out. He's successful any way. I went down and got my experience. Uh, I used to feet lambs out. Used to feed calves and the county agent come around here and to tell me, I didn't ask him here. He come around here to tell me I was drying my feed too thin, too fine. I need to have it more bulk feed. Well, I, I just had a fire storm and go down there to Greeley and Joe . . out west of Eden. Joe . . out by Magill an . . . see how I got nine ex- perience with feeding for guys with successful. Uh, now if it was somebody who was a failure but those guys was successful feeding and that's where I got mine. Advice on feeding stock. And I done alright but, uh, they just got a rule of thumb. They, they got a book. They think they know it all. Don't know. Haven't had the practical experience.

SA: What's the funniest memory of Sweetwater County?

JW: Well, I ' ve had quite a few I guess. I think I told you about the drunk on South Front Street. He has one foot down in the gutter and the other up on the sidewalk. He says, "John, I'm 40 year old and it's the first time I knew I had one leg shorter than the other one." So I got him up on the sidewalk, and he said, "John I must be crazy," and I said, "Well there's something wrong with you. I said "To come down here and blow your hard-earned money for a headache is something has to be wrong." Uh, but, uh, Iv'e uh ... I was a breakin' horses and uh, things like that. Run horses had a lot of laughs. One time I had my grandson out here. We was workin' calves an I showed him how, after I throwed him on why . . . go out and put one foot against the hind legs on the ground and push it front and pops his neck here, so he couldn't get up and then ... Well, this calf pooped on him while he was sitting back there. So I got quite a kick out of that. I've had a lot of laughs really. Different things that.

SA: What's the biggest change in the country since you were young?

JW: The biggest change in this country out here?

SA: In the country as a whole.

JW: Well, uh, as I see it, the country's in bad shape as a whole. I believe it's the biggest debt we've ever had in the United States. About, about 2 trillion dollars or 33

better right today. Well last figure I had uh, that's been several years ago. The United States was only worth about 500 billion and we've went over our worth really. So I think I told ya I didn't think I'd ever see the day when a dollar didn't count, but I have. I ' ve lived to see that day. And people are not trying to live within their means, but our United States government isn't either. They are uh, uh, every President gets in is gonna balance the budget first thing they claim they're gonna do but, but, they never get it done. But uh, they're spending more than they're taking in and that's. We have farmers on the farm today that shouldn't be there. We have school teachers in the classroom that shouldn't be there. We've got engineers in the field that shouldn't be there. I told that to the Bureau of Reclamation engineer he said, "I'll agree with you 100%." Uh, that's what happened. Today we have this farm program. The A. F. C. I served on for 23 year I was a on a county committee here, chairman of the committee most of the time. But people plan upward stuff all the time. They're not trying to do anything on their own. They've some of the little things they could do on their own but they'd have federal aid. But that's what happened today. It's not only farmers. Farmers is the same thing as . . they got to have federal aid to help 'em farm. I don't want that federal aid myself ... money I don ' t want to try and catch it myself. We had this cheese program. Come out well your entitled to help, your senior citizens. And I said "We don't need it. We won't take it." "Oh you should take it sir." They just begged us to take it. I told the deputy sheriff out here, I said, "That's for the needy, not the greedy." And, uh, but that's what's happening. I know people who got that cheese they didn't need it they got it and gave it, and gave it to somebody else er something. And that's happening. That's what's wrong with our country today. It's uh, well, you take your schools. They's no better there uh, dealin' out here now. Tryin' to cut down school board. Tryin' to cut down and operate within their means. School board uh, I served on the school board. You know the budget for the school board about the easiest budget I ever served on. Uh, you know what the evaluation of your district is and you could stay within your means. Church budget, budgets, is the hardest I've ever worked on. You don't know how much you're going to get in on a church budget. You don't have no figure to go on. You can go on your back budget on a school budget an have a guideline there pretty well. But the church budget. You, you can't do it where you have, well just like your boom come in here and a lot of money for awhile in the church then they're all gone and you don't have anything. But that's what we're up against. We've got to try to stay within our means. Uh, uh, even from the county clear up the, the United States Senate we've got to try to stay within our means. Uh, you've got uh, oh, like the social security, when they first started that. It was the it was to build up for you future 34

when you got to be 65 but now, they're even giving these guys in prison, giving them social security. Now, they should try to teach them a trade there in prison. If they're not in there for life or something. If they're in there for life well, something like that well, any money spent on them is they're getting their board and room. But if they're in there for a short time to uh, fill up that person's life to teach them a trade something that they will work at when they do get out of prison. And that they will work at when they do get out of prison. And that they can earn an honest living. You know, not have to go out and kill somebody to get the money or something like that but, uh, just to uh, dish this money out right and left. Well, just what I said I never did ask the United States govern­ ment for anything. What I figured, I was justified in asking for. And, uh, that was for a farmer trying to carry out a project that he wasn't able to carry out on his own. Like . . came in here and rearranged these ditches. The farmer had to build new ditches new turn-outs some of urn didn't have money to do it with. An, uh, but they was forced on urn by the United States government. I didn't feel bad about askin help for 'em. Cause I figured it was justified. But uh, there's other things that uh, oh, you might say, you probably seen this happen quite a little bit. A girl gets pregnant and an unwed mom and they pay for that child. And through welfare and things like that and then if she gets a pretty good check she'll go have another one same way an just keep on that way. And the negroes I believe is the worst class for that. There was one woman. I believe she had 8 kids and getting paid on every one of them so things like that get paid. I don't like to see anyone suffer either. I never did or go hungry. I got bawled out the this pastor up here but he's not here now. Tubbs, when Tubbs was up here, he was callin' me up one evening. Said there was a woman stranded up there in Farson. She had two little kids an said she was Southern Baptist and she was out of gas and, and, uh, he told her I was the only Southern Baptist he knew of here. So he called me up and give me a telephone number. It was the pay phone there at Farson. I called up and she answered it, so I went up to see her. I told her I'd come to see her I'd come up to see her and I went up had quite a visit with her. Her husband was alcoholic an according to what she told me, kicked her out and those two little girls and they was wanting to go to Billings. And she was out of gas and so I talked with her a while. I told her, I said "It's about 300 miles from here to Billings." And I don't know if she told me whether she had relatives there or not. But I asked her, I said, "Did you ever wait tables or anything in a restaurant. She said yes she had. I said "They've got, a, ads in the paper all the time for waitress and dishwashers here in Rock Springs in restaurants and I said, "Uh, uh, what was that guy used to manage the Sears. True . . Tom True . . he used to run J. C. Pennys. I 35

said "He hires people all the time. I don't think . went to work there. And, and, she said she had worked in restaurants so I asked her if $50 would help her out on the gas a bit. I said "Well I'll fill you a tank of gas here if you want to go to Billings, that will take you to Ther­ mopolis, you fill up again there. Take you on into Billings but, uh, the store was closed. Service station was open ... in Farson. I could see Duwayne, Mickey still in up there so we went up there and I told Mickey. I, uh, wrote Mickey a check for $50. I said fill the gas tank with gas and give them something to eat. And he did in the res­ taurant .. So she thanked me. I don't know how many times . . She didn't lie to me about gas cause it took 23 gallons of gas to fill her tank. She only had two gallons left. Well, Tubbs came down here said you didn't help that woman a bit. I said maybe not, but I look at it this way. If she lied to me, her hands are dirty. I said she didn't lie to me about being out of gas. But I said I know we have to trust in the . . . and we have alcoholics who kick their wives out. Now I know that man I said uh, and I felt this way if she told me the truth and I could help her and I didn't, my hands would be dirty. An so after talkin' I guess I could a helped her some. But uh, uh, I just thought like the anybody an I know what a, that women are getting kicked out. I knew cases that happened that way and husbands alcoholics and spend all their money . . She left there. She went back towards Rock Springs, I watched her. And I'm pretty sure I saw her one time in there at Denny's. But I'm pretty sure I saw her one time in there at Denny's. So she got her a job. But this lady that uh, her husband drowned up there in the reservoir a few year ago why she was supposed to be Southern Baptist. I, I, was up there at the reservoir. We was trying, I took my lariat rope and I took two hay hooks, tied urn together. Figured that they could, they could drag it under the boat and maybe hook his clothing. You know an find him there. But they ruled that out. Said if they hooked his body they'd let the air out of him. They never would find him. But uh, I talked to his brothers an they said they couldn't figure him drowning. He was a good swimmer, a real good swimmer but they couldn't figure him drowning. But he left a wife an four little kids. They come over here from Sheridan and she was a nurse. She just been workin' down here at the hospital for two weeks. And I saw Jim Stark and I saw Sanders, too. It's a pretty good job. At least she'd be able to support those four little kids, and they did. And, a so, we took a collection for her in Green River churches. In all, I think we got, I don't know how much we got. I'm just gussin' .maybe we got $500 for her. I don't know. We got a pretty good amount of money for her but a year or two later I saw where she picked up there in Rock Springs for, fined $400 for driving under the influence. Makes me feel kinda bad who you gonna help but, I, I, felt like our hands were clean. We tried to help you know an if we failed. Well, 36

well, we did something wrong well God will see it, our side of it anyway.

SA: That's true. What, in your opinion does the future hold for the country?

JW: Well, wife and I pray all the time that the fellas in authority over us will get the country outta~debt and back together.

SA: Do you have any words that you'd like to leave for your grandchildren or heirs?

JW: Well, I always wanted to leave this world better than I found it. I'm afraid I won't be doing that but I hope I can. My father told me when I left home, he told me to go make all the money I could and he said, "Son, always be a man." I've always tried to be that. That's one thing I'd like to leave my grandson, "Always try to be a man.

SA: I thank you. For the second time.