Joel Buchanan Archive of African American History: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/ohfb
Samuel Proctor Oral History Program
College of Liberal Arts and Sciences
Program Director: Dr. Paul Ortiz 241 Pugh Hall PO Box 115215 Gainesville, FL 32611 (352) 392-7168 https://oral.history.ufl.edu
URR 005 Fred Payne Underground Railroad Collection (URR) Interviewed by Marna Weston on June 21, 2012 53 minutes | 24 pages
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URR 005 Interviewee: Fred Payne Interviewer: Marna Weston Date: June 21, 2012
P: And when I start to tell you about my dad. He got caught in a revolution. And the
one of them with [inaudible 0:13] the one that my daddy was, they picked up my
mom and two more families and take ‘em prisoners. My grandmomma, she went
with my momma she didn’t leave ‘em by herself. They figure if they hold the
family they would, the husband would come in, turn theyself in. But the husband
didn’t know nothing body, they was [Laughter] out in the revolution with the other
soldiers I guess. I don’t know what they—and they ship ‘em to Mexico, to
Musquiz, to Veracruz. In Veracruz, Mexico he—my momma stay with her
momma—my grandmomma went to with a guy out in selling tacos or something.
A little food in her little stand in Calermay. She went over to talk to this man and
this man, he didn’t talk English, but he talk Spanish and my grandmomma told
him the problem they was in and he told them he said, “I’ll tell you what: I can
help you make a note for the American consul.” He said—the American consul
was in Veracruz and the Mexican consul is some this—the American consul is in
Mexico, and the American one is in Mexico, and the Mexican consul is in the
United States. He said, “I’ll take them to them.” And my grandmomma made a
note, said they was born and raised in Brackettville, Texas. And he slip over the
guy and gave it to the consul, and the consul called, I guess, the army in Mexico
and told them to release their family. He said, “You release their family,” and they
release ‘em. The consul, he put them on a boat and give them money for they
pay their way for the—get all the way to Brackettville and they ship ‘em on a boat
and they come to Galveston. That’s where they wind up, in Galveston. In URR 005; Payne; Page 2
Galveston they went to Brackett. Well, uh, they was in Brackett for while, good
while. Then the revolution was over in Mexico—when my daddy went over to
look for her family he didn’t find it. He find my granddaddy. My granddaddy was
over there and he find him and my granddaddy told him, he said, oh, they take
your wife and certain family and he said, your momma went with your wife. He
said, I haven’t heard nothing body. Well, my daddy said, well I’m gonna look for
them. He got on a little train would run, like, bout, I guess, about two or three
bucks to go. Would run to a little station with a big bay line and big train would go
to—from the Boulder it would go to Mexico City. My daddy got on the little train
and he was going towards Mexico City to look for his wife—and my
grandmomma. Then he heard everything was quiet in Mexico. Well, she went
back to Mexico. She got to switch, get off the lay train, off the big train and get on
the little one to go and then she got off the big train. My daddy got off the little
one and they meet right there.
W: So they found each other?
P: Yeah, and she told him, and said, oh, she said, in Brackettville—well, my daddy
he come on to the United States. He was an American citizen, my daddy and my
momma, they was born and raised in Brackettville. They stayed round Brackett
for a good while, till World War I break out. Then World War I here in the United
States break out. My daddy didn’t wanna fight no more, he didn’t wanna go to no
more war. The United States governor said, all the ones that didn’t wanna fight,
they coulda go to Mexico. And my daddy had a wagon and a team of mules and
he went back to Mexico. He lured my momma and my oldest brother and he went URR 005; Payne; Page 3
back there, to Musquiz. He drove a wagon all the way to Del Rio all the way to
Musquiz—bout ninety miles. He went over there and he stayed over there and
raised nine kids over there.
W: Before you tell me anymore, as always, one of the reasons we love oral history is
because of the power of the narrative. You’re story is so captivating we haven’t
even had a chance to open our program yet. This is Marna Weston from the
Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, here in St. Augustine, at the Underground
Railroad Convention and I’m speaking with Mr. Fred Payne. Thank you for telling
us so much this far and—
P: Yeah.
W: —I know there’s more coming. Mr. Payne, could you tell me when and where you
were born?
P: Huh?
W: When were you born?
P: I was born 1929.
W: And where were you born?
P: In Mexico.
W: What city?
P: Born, 1929, the twelfth day of September.
W: Twelfth day of September. And you’ve been telling me about your mother and
father and your oldest brother. What are your mother and father’s names?
P: My mother’s name was Muertice.
W: Muertice. URR 005; Payne; Page 4
P: And my oldest brother was Tommy Payne.
W: And your dad?
P: My dad was John Payne.
W: Okay. We’re here at this conference that talks about the Gullah-Geechee and the
Seminole people. How do you describe yourself? Who are you? What is your
background? Who are your people?
P: Well, uh about the Seminole people, the way my momma was taught to tell me is
they was Winston, Florida to Texas. They helped the United States governor fight
the Comanche, the Indians and they did. Then, they withdrew the Indian. The
United States governor want to pay them and they didn’t want no money, they
want a place to live. And the governor give them a piece a land in the
Brackettville, a good piece of land. I say, it was probably around bout 10,000 or
15,000 acres.
W: Now, that’s how your family came to live there.
P: Uh-huh. That’s where the Seminoles were living and they would call the place—
well I—they name it now Folklacky. That’s where all the Seminoles were living
and they would raise goats and they would plant corn or crop. They were living
there and uh—and the amount of years that—they gonna decide to take away
from them. They told him they got to move out. Said to go buy a piece of land in
town or rent a house cause he was taking his land to build a post to put soldiers
and they did. He take it with him. [Laughter] They build an outpost and start
soldiers and everything for World War Two, they had a lot of soldiers then. And
then, after they give ‘em their land and it was a little crowded, said the Seminoles URR 005; Payne; Page 5
was a little crowded. Well, Mexico was having problems with the Indians at the
same time. Well, they ask the Seminoles and the United States government told
Mexico they had some Seminoles that was good fighters. [Laughter] The Indians,
they was good on the Indians, and they went to Mexico. They went to fight
Mexico, help Mexico. The Indians fight and they did, and then everything settle
down. Mexico wanna pay ‘em and they said, no they didn’t want no—they didn’t
want no money, they wanted land. Mexico give ‘em land and they still got it.
W: Uh-huh.
P: They still got it. There’s not much Seminole over there. They were warm, warmer
now, full blood Seminole. And that’s the extent of Mexico, just warm. All the rest
is half crossbreed. They married Mexican, their daddy or their momma.
W: That’s a lot of what this conference is about. People are trying to figure out, how
do you know who is a Seminole? How do you know who is a Black Seminole?
This one woman you described as full blood. How do you know who is a
Seminole or who is a Black Seminole? How do you say who is who?
P: Well, to me I couldn’t help you tell, I couldn’t tell. The United States, the Black
people of the United States had an education. They can tell the way the
Seminole talk. They didn’t talk the English, it was pretty rough. [Laughter] I know
a lot of people with this. You start talking to ‘em and they tell you, that we’re
Seminole and they come out of Mexico and you can’t talk good English.
[Laughter]
W: But, what if you spoke Spanish? Like you, you speak Spanish—
P: Well— URR 005; Payne; Page 6
W: And you’re Black and you’re a Seminole. How do you say, well this is part of this
part of the Seminoles? Or, you’re part of this family of the Seminoles.
P: Well, if you speak Spanish, like I do, then you got then the Black people from the
United States, you got ‘em in a corner cause they don’t speak no Spanish.
[Laughter] You got ‘em right there. And I don’t speak much English. I speak more
Spanish than I do English. Actually, I been married twice to Mexican womens. My
first wife I got eight kids.
W: And what was her name?
P: I got four boys and four girls.
W: What was your first wife’s name?
P: Uh, Julie.
W: Okay.
P: Julia Payne.
W: And who are the children? What are the children’s names?
P: My children, uh, my oldest one’s name is Oscar Payne. And next to him it be
Nellie—not Nellie—Marie Payne. She in somewhere here in Miami, Florida. She
live here. Then, next to her be another girl named Minnie, Minnie. She’s in Ohio.
Next to Minnie it be another girl. She’s in Amarillo, Texas, named Nellie. She got
a boy, Nellie got a boy. He’s playing with the Steelers. He’s, uh,—ninety-six is the
number—
W: Okay, he’s your grandson—
P: He’s played football with the Steelers.
W: Does he play now or he played before? URR 005; Payne; Page 7
P: No, he’s playing right now.
W: Okay, okay.
P: He’s playing right now. I think last year. Then they played for the Super Bowl.
That was his first year.
W: Ok, wow. So now there’s some more children after Nellie though, right?
P: Huh?
W: More children after Nellie, the rest of your children?
P: Yeah.
W: Ok, who are they?
P: All the rest than Nellie, she’s in Amarillo in—that’s four girls—three girls and one
boy. Then, I got a boy in Brackett. Then, I got another boy next to him, he’s here
in Miami, named Johnny. Johnny Payne, he’s named like my daddy. I got the
youngest one in, well, I got between the youngest one and Johnny, I got a girl
named Paulina. She’s in San Angelo, Texas. The youngest boy, he’s in Phoenix,
Arizona.
W: So those are your children with Julie?
P: Yeah, and every one of the eight kids got a high school education. Every one.
W: So that’s important to you, the education?
P: Yeah.
W: Why is that important to you?
P: Cause their momma was pretty hard to get along and she is still hard to get long.
After raise up the kids, she was hard to get long and I just finally decided I
couldn’t live the rest of my life like that. [Laughter] I want to live a better life. URR 005; Payne; Page 8
W: But your children all got a good education.
P: Yeah, and I got a divorce. In a few more years I find a woman, a Mexican woman
and I married her.
W: And what is her name?
P: She turned out a good, good woman.
W: Uh-huh, what’s her name?
P: Dora.
W: Dora.
P: I think I got her picture here—She look like a White woman. She’s a good
woman.
W: Oh yeah, she’s lovely.
P: I been married to her about twenty-something years now.
W: Do you have children? With her?—
P: No—
W: No children—
P: We didn’t have no children. She had eight—she had six kids.
W: Okay.
P: I adopted the two youngest ones. She had two young girls. I adopted them and
one of them is married.
W: What is their names?
P: She [Laughter] got in—she’s in San Antonio, Texas.
W: What are the daughters’ names?
P: Sorry? URR 005; Payne; Page 9
W: What are their names? The daughters.
P: The name is, uh, Valerie and Danny. And then Valerie, in Uvalde, got a café and
she and her momma, they run the café.
W: Do you remember your grandparents?
P: Who?
W: Do you remember your grandparents?
P: Rimbo?
W: Your momma’s mother and father? Do you remember them?
P: No, I don’t remember my mother and my granddaddy’s name. I don’t remember
their name.
W: Mmhmm, but you remember being around them?
P: Yeah.
W: Okay, what were they like? What was it like being around your grandparents?
P: Huh?
W: What were they like?
P: Well, uh, I guess, I didn’t get to know ‘em. I guess they was, like, farming cause
they was in Mexico from—they die in Mexico.
W: Mmhmm.
P: And they had a name, they call my granddaddy Ike, something like that. It used
to be, out there in Mexico, where my granddaddy used to live, used to be corn
trees and he would get a great big old corn. I was, remember, I was just a young
old kid and I went over there pick some corn and was selling it. And all the good
one I wouldn’t sell it. I begin to tell my sisters, no, no I’m not gonna sell that one, URR 005; Payne; Page 10
that’s the one for old Ike. And my momma got on me body before I got that, well
up that corn tree. [Laughter] My momma said, well, that’s the people who’s
calling her. Her daddy Ike [Laughter] and she got on me right there. But I didn’t
know it. I never did get to know his name.
W: Do you have brothers and sisters?
P: Well, I got two sisters. This girl here momma, she’s my baby sister—
W: Okay.
P: Daughter [referring to the mother of Genevieve Payne].
W: Can you tell me the names of your brothers and sisters from oldest to youngest?
Your brothers and sisters.
P: The oldest one? The oldest brother, his name was Tom. And my sister was
Lorraine. Then it was another boy next to Tom named Bob. Next to Lorraine it
was—he’s still living—named John Payne. He’s in Brackettville and he’s ninety-
five. He’s ninety-five years old. Next to John it was Warren, he died. He was
seventy-seven then he died, but he would smoke a whole lot and drink a whole
lot. His name was Oliver. Next to Oliver it was a girl—it maybe was two, three
months—about two three months—I had a sister die and she was eighty—eighty-
eight.
W: I’m very sorry.
P: She was eighty-eight.
W: What is the story that your family tells about how they left and left slavery and got
their freedom. I know you talked about how your family went from Florida to
Texas and Mexico. So, how is that story told in your family? URR 005; Payne; Page 11
P: Oh, then they got to Mexico?
W: Yes.
P: They got from the here to Mexico. Well, uh, the story—they was leaving Florida
and they was, I guess, the way my momma said they was running and going in
Texas cause they was slaves. They was slaves here in Florida. Way background
they were the slaves and they were running going and they got over there. They
got there with the—in Texas and they wanna be, well they wanna be free and
they got in, help them fight the Indians.
W: Mmhmm. The first part you were telling me. Now, when they were here in
Florida, do you know the names of the places they were at? What part of Florida
did they come from?
P: No I sure don’t—
W: Just Florida.
P: I sure don’t know the place and this is my first time I come to Florida. I sure don’t
know the place. They went [inaudible 22:22] for Florida.
W: When you were growing up did you have chores that you did?
P: Huh?
W: Did you have chores? Things, like, you had to work when you were young?
Chores.
P: No, I was a big man.
W: Yes, but uh, I mean, you know, like, you have to milk the cows or, you know, or
chop wood or— URR 005; Payne; Page 12
P: Oh yeah, I was a rancher. I work on a ranch all my life. Work live stock. I ride
horses, I break horses. That’s the reason I’m all break up. [Laughter]
W: Well, tell me about that. Tell me about breaking horses and being a rancher.
What kind of life was that like?
P: It’s, uh, hard life. It’s a hard life. Cause now they’re not ranching like they used to.
The things changed, in the modern years things changed. Way back yonder
when I was young and people was ranching, it was uh—you break horses and
break them the hard way. You just get a horse that never had a rope on him and
put him in the pen and rope him. Stretch him out and gotta rope the behind feet
and stretch him out and put a saddle on him and get your cowboys on. A horse
never seen a person before [Laughter] and that’s a hard, hard life cause—
W: Did you know many men that did that?
P: Oh I know many men that did that, I did that myself.
W: Who’s the best person you ever know that you—
P: Huh?
W: Who’s the best one you ever saw? The best one that could—
P: Well the best rancher I ever saw, he died, he’s dead already, he’s been dead a
good while. His name was George Fay. He was a good rider. He was a good
rider. I’ll give it to him. He was a good rider.
W: What did you admire about him? What made him so good?
P: Well, I say he good cause he rode lot of horses and never get throwed off. He
can ride a horse, I don’t care what that horse do, he would stay right there on
him. [Laughter] There’s not very many guys [Laughter] do this. [Laughter] URR 005; Payne; Page 13
W: So you were thrown?
P: I got thrown.
W: Many times? A few times?
P: Quite a few. [Laughter] Quite a few times.
W: What is that like, when you get thrown off the horse your—
P: Well, sometimes you get thrown, most of them—you get thrown off a horse you
don’t—very few times it hurts you. But if you keep doing it, you will get hurt, some
they run over you, or throw you, and step on you, or kick you when they go by,
and you get hurt.
W: But you can get along with the horses?
P: Right.
W: Did you talk to them? Did you have to tell him what was what or—how do you get
along with a horse?
P: In modern years, that I get older, and I work on a lot of ranches and I see people
breaking horses. It’s a way to break a horse and you don’t have to go through all
that. You take this horse, put a rope on him, work with them, and trod them
round, run around in—especially if you got the round pin it’s bout the best thing to
work on them. One don’t have no corners. This make them go round and round.
Stop and brush ‘em and comb ‘em and after a while you get that horse. It’s a way
to do that, to break a horse, and you don’t have to go through all that.
W: They’re smart animals then?
P: They’re pretty smart animals. URR 005; Payne; Page 14
W: Did you ever train them to do anything besides just the roping? Did you teach
them tricks or things like that?
P: Well, uh, they’re pretty smart cause you—I guess the way you treat ‘em. The way
you treat him and that horse so he treat—you treat him every day, you work with
him every day, he’d know you. I’ll go over there or she’ll go and then when she—
she know she tell the difference. [Laughter] That’s the way to work with the
horses, with livestock.
W: How many years did you work with horses?
P: I work with horses, uh, I work on one place twenty-one years, in Brackettville.
Then I move from Brackettville to Uvalde and I work on one place eleven years,
in Uvalde, and then I got sick. The doctor told me I better quit, quit working cause
if you wanna live a few more years she said, you better quit working.
W: You mentioned going to the doctor. I’m curious, when you grew up, were there—
when you got sick did you go to the doctor or did you do stuff at home?
P: Well I gotta—I had a heart attack. I had a heart trauma.
W: How long ago was that?
P: Well that’s been, that’s been good long. That’s been about fifteen, sixteen years.
Had a heart attack and the doctor told me, she said you, the kind of work you do
is just too hard on you. You get too hot and they say, you better quit it. And I did.
I was coming already, sixty-two years old. They say I’m gonna sign fix the papers
and you turn them in, they say, put your social security say, you can live off of
that. Maybe later on they say, you might do a little light joust on, where you don’t
get too hot, and I did. Later on, after I did and after I married this last women, URR 005; Payne; Page 15
well, she opened a little old café. We did good for the café. We did good. Then I
married her she didn’t have no—she didn’t have but six kids. Five girls and one
boy. She did renting a house, she didn’t have no home. We got to working and
then save a little money. We bought a lot and then we bought a trailer house.
Then we bought six more lots and two more trailer houses and we sat on it and
we had to rent ‘em out. Then where we living it was ten miles to the city, to
Uvalde. Then she opened a little old café, just a little old small place and she
selling tacos and she done really good. I would wash dishes and she make a
tortillas, homemade tortillas and she did good and did good and did good. Then
we bought a place and uh, this place, right now we got it for sale, the place. This
place costs with $180,000. We got it for sale I don’t know what work we can get,
what we want for it. We want, uh, bout $400,000. [Laughter] I doubt it. There a lot
of people come by for the day.
W: So this is the year 2012—
P: Sorry?
W: This is the year 2012. You’ve had a long life, seen a lot of things.
P: Right.
W: What do you think is the future for, uh, Black Seminole people? What is there
future going to be like?
P: Well, I think the future for the Black Seminole people, this I will say, after a while
it’ll be just like Mexico. Cause they get mixed up, they get married. I got my
youngest boy, he married a White girl. I got two boys. They wife’s is Mexican. My
oldest daughter, she live in Miami. She got a—she’s husband is Puerto Rico. She URR 005; Payne; Page 16
got two kids, a girl and a boy. After a while they [Laughter], you wouldn’t even
know the difference. Since they changed everything and they mixed the schools,
well, things changed. The young generation they run together, they have parties
together, they different. Different than they used to be than than I come out of—I
come out of Mexico 1945. I come to Brackettville, 1945. It was tough then. It was
pretty tough.
W: What was tough about it? What do you mean?
P: It was tough in the way for Black people. You go down the street and you want to
find a place to eat, you better look for signs first see if you can go, they allow you
in there to eat. Cause [Laughter] if a sign says says they don’t allow Black people
you better keep going. [Laughter]
W: Was it like that when you went to school too?
P: Yeah it was like that. The school wasn’t mixed. They wasn’t mixed. They was
mixed with the Mexican and the White. But all the Blacks was super separate.
They go to school—and then amount of years then they keep getting a—United
States keep getting in war and then President John Kennedy got in. Well, he
changed. He said, he changed, everything was gonna be changed. He mixed the
school. They had a lot of problem in lot of places but then its mixed and they go
to school and they get married. But, things changed cause you see a lot of Black
people as a highway patrols, border patrols, policemen in—
W: President—
P: Lawyers and you see all of them.
W: President of the United States. URR 005; Payne; Page 17
P: That’s true. Long time ago they didn’t have that.
W: Did you think that you would ever see that? A Black person—
P: I thought I’d never see it. I thought I’d never see it but an old man, he told me
that. I remember when the—then the World War—I think World War Two or
something like that was over. The President—I forgot who was president then
and the—
W: Truman.
P: Huh? They said the poorest man in United States was gonna have a car. Cause I
remember then there was very few poor people who had a car. Cause the car I
had, I had a old [19]39 Chevrolet and I pay $100.00. I borrow the money to the
bank and I paid cash for it. I was driving my own car, it’s my car. It runs probably
thirty, thirty-five miles an hour, I had a car. [Laughter] Things changed quite a bit.
When I say I never—this old man, he was a White man, old man. He told me, he
say you young Fred, and you gonna get to see this. He say what the president
say last night, it’s gonna be true. He said, you gonna live long, young enough to
see this, but it’s gonna be—he said, I’m gonna tell you the truth it’s gonna be a
lot of people driving car, but it’s gonna be a lot of people getting killed. He said,
cause a lot of people, he said, they ain’t got enough up here [Laughter] to have
or driving a car. He said, that car there’s a hundred, he said, they gonna drive it a
hundred. It’s true, it comes out exactly what he say. Lot of people getting killed in
automobiles.
W: Do you remember where you were when you heard that Barack Obama was
elected president? URR 005; Payne; Page 18
P: Sorry?
W: Do you remember where you were and what you were doing when you heard
Obama was president of the United States?
P: Well, I was working on a ranch. It was a lot of change made, they made a lot of
change in that. Then they mixed the schools and everything get mixed up and
everybody get the same education. Things changed. Everybody get along fine.
[Laughter]
W: Do you remember any stories from when you were growing up that you’re family
told you? Like stories that you tell kids, or fairytales, or bedtime stories, maybe
something in Spanish? You know, a story that you would tell to a young person?
P: Well, I can remember dinner stores bout the mixed people where we’ll be mixed.
I can eat when she’s eating. I can eat in the same building, the same place. I can
remember that [Laughter] and the people tell me that. I seen it. I said,
I seen it—still seeing it, still seeing it everyday. We got a, right there the town
where I’m living, the Uvalde. They say that was one of the toughest little city that
was hard on the Mexican people, that was hard on the Black people. Now, I got a
lot of customers, White people, lot of customers come in the café. This is
happiest day can be.
W: Well, Mr.Payne I want to thank you so much for doing this interview. On behalf of
our Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, it’s been an honor to talk to you about
your life and to learn more about the Seminoles and I’d like to close the interview
by giving you a chance to say anything you want to say. So, when you get done
with whatever you want to say that’ll be the end of the interview. URR 005; Payne; Page 19
P: Yeah. Well, the only thing I’ll say, well, I’m pretty happy the way things changed
and things going on. I got a grandkid and he’s already in the service. His mother
is a White girl and his daddy is my youngest boy and he’s in the service already.
Great big old boy. This grandson I’m telling you, he play with the Steelers. He’s a
big guy, he weighs about three hundred pounds. His name is Ziggy Hood
[Evander “Ziggy” Hood (February 16th, 1987—) was drafted by the Pittsburgh
Steelers as 32nd overall in the 2009 NFL Draft]. His mother had four kids and
she and her husband got a divorce. She was a policeman in Amarillo, Texas and
she raised them kids. This boy here he’s bout the youngest one. The oldest boy
he’s injured there. His brother, the oldest one, he say he, the youngest boy he
never liked work. He used to tell him, you better go to school or do something he
said, cause oh, you don’t like to work. He finished high school and he went to
college in Missouri. He stayed in Missouri and went to college and he liked to
play football. That’s where they got him, right in the college. They got him on the
Steelers. He signed a contract, then they play for the Superbowl. He signed a
contract for fifteen—for three year—and they give him fifteen million for three
year. He’s always with my oldest boy. I tell him, you young, you can hang around
maybe he can help you out that’s all my boy. [Laughter] He’s a big guy. . . Well—
I had a hard life to get where I am right now. I went through some hard jobs and
didn’t get paid much. Then, in 1945, I was about sixteen years old and there’s a
great big world war. I didn’t go to school, I went to working on the ranches and I
didn’t get paid, probably two dollars, two dollars a day. Two dollars a day. In
[inaudible 41:13]. Then later on they raise it up to three dollars. [Laughter] That URR 005; Payne; Page 20 was $90.00 a month. It was pretty tough then. I tell a lot of bosses, I said, that time we couldn’t wear our cowboy boot. I said, cause cowboy boot, a pretty decent boot would cost probably $35.00, $40.00. That was a lot of money
[Laughter], that was a lot of money for a pair of boot. We’d rather just buy a regular shoe that cost about $8.00, $8.00 or $9.00. I see a lot of things changed cause I used to have, I don’t wear it no more since I’m all crippled up. I used to have boots cost me $300.00, cowboy boots. I never dreamed I’d get to pay that kinda money for a pair a boots. Think this make a change in the—and the only thing got me now in the shape I am right now, I got this leukemia in my blood, got this cancer. I had it for bout twelve years now. That’s what really teared me up cause they give me a shot bout every thirty days or sixty days. They draw blood and they run it and check the blood. They give me a shot and—and the shot is really expensive. That shot costs $4,720.00 for a little bottle that big. Come out of
Japan and that’s a lot of money. The insurance for it I got is paying part of it. The other part—I had another insurance would pay the other part but, he’s backing off. He paid it for a while and then he quit. Right now, bout a month ago, they mailed me the letter. The insurance quit paying it. One of the insurance quit paying it. The part the insurance quit paying it, I owe them $40,000.00. Since
February, now, I owe them $40,000.00. That’s a lot of money. I said, no way I can pay them people that kind of money. [Laughter] I told my wife, I say, ain’t no way I can pay that kind of money. I say, I don’t want you to get—cause we got three houses. We got one we living in and we got two rent out. I don’t want to sell nothing like that, cause anything happen to me—I said, they not gonna kill me. I URR 005; Payne; Page 21
said, they not gonna kill me, that’s for sure. I say, you gonna be down before you
get started and I said this. I just took everything, I put it down in my wife’s name.
The houses and I take my—I don’t have nothing in my name. I don’t have no car,
nothing. We have two trucks and two or three cars. Everything is in my daughter
and my wife’s name. I said, cause anything happens to me, I said, y’all gonna be
down to just where y’all started. I said, I don’t wanna see y’all like that, I said. At
least, I said, you got them two houses. You get the rent off them houses live off
that. Well, you wanna—how long I got to be at this?
W: We’re done. Again, thank you very much
P: Huh?
W: Thank you very much, again. Thank you so much, sir. Asou Sordines.
[Laughter]
P: Well, you think you got enough information?
W: I think so.
P: I’m so glad you get it all. This I said, the Seminole people probably—you young. I
don’t know how old you—what are you about thirty something?
W: Well, you’re very kind. [Laughter]
P: Thirty-five? Well, you young, you probably see this cause the next forty, fifty
years they still be mixed up and you can’t tell a Seminole. They’re all mixed up,
they like Mexico. Mexico, the only thing Mexico did good, they still got they land.
They still got they land. You can build a house on the land and they got a farm.
You farm that farm or whatever you want to do but, you cannot sell your piece a
land. Well, this is mine or I’m gonna sell it, you can’t do that. You can live there, URR 005; Payne; Page 22
as long as they don’t cost you nothing. They build you house, this how you want
it. That’s the only thing Mexico did for the Seminoles over there but, they cannot
sell it. The one in here, in Brackettville, they got kicked out long time ago.
[Laughter] They got kicked out their land, they kicked them out.
W: Thank you very much, Mr. Payne. We’re honored and very appreciative of this
time to talk with you. Thank you.
P: Okay.
[Break in recording]
W: What kind of a place it is? Can you describe—for someone who’s never been
there before, what would you have to say about it?
P: In Brackett?
W: Uh-huh, in Brackett. Yes.
P: Well, Brackett is getting just like Mexico. There’s not very many Seminoles in
Brackettville. They all move away from Brackett cause no living to [inaudible
49:10]. No job and no living and they move away.
W: But Seminole people lived there for a while and had good lives there. Is that
right?
P: I guess right now in Brackettville it’s bound to be—not over five or six older
people in Brackett, Seminole. They all die out. Me and this guy here, Dub
Warrior. Cause Dub is older than me, he’s eighty-five. Then there’s another guy
in Brackett, he’s eighty-two, my age. Not very many.
W: But the stories are being told and—
P: Huh? URR 005; Payne; Page 23
W: The story is still being told about Seminoles, in Florida and in Texas. People still
tell the stories.
P: Okay. The story of Texas and Florida?
W: Yes, sir.
P: Well, the Texas—Florida, the Seminole was going West and cause they was—
treating ‘em pretty rough in Florida, they was slaves. They got to Texas and they
fight, not the United States. The governor was fighting with the Comanche
Indians and they chip in with the governor and the governor got them and helped
them fighting the Comanches and they made it. Give ‘em the—after they was
through, well, the governor wanna pay ‘em and they say, they didn’t want no
money, they wanna piece a land to live on. The governor give them the land.
They give them a land and they live there for years and years and then all at
once the United States governor told ‘em, they said, you all got to move to town.
Cause they was living south of Brackettville. Brackettville was still a little old town
and all the Seminole was on the south side. They told them, you all got to move
to town or buy or rent but you can’t , y’all can’t be living here no more. They
move them all, all got move out. Governor come in there and build roads and
build houses and put soldiers in [Laughter] the place.
W: I think they got what they needed.
P: Yeah, they got it?
W: They got what they needed.
P: Okay.
W: [Inaudible 52:30], sir. URR 005; Payne; Page 24
[End of interview]
Transcribed by: Sabrina Mijares, February 20, 2013
Audit edited by: Emily Nyren, February 28, 2013
Final edit by: Ryan Morini, March 3, 2019