Joel Buchanan Archive of African American History: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/ohfb Samuel Proctor Oral History Program College of Liberal Arts and Sciences Program Director: Dr. Paul Ortiz 241 Pugh Hall PO Box 115215 Gainesville, FL 32611 (352) 392-7168 https://oral.history.ufl.edu URR 005 Fred Payne Underground Railroad Collection (URR) Interviewed by Marna Weston on June 21, 2012 53 minutes | 24 pages For information on terms of use of this interview, please see the SPOHP Creative Commons license at http://ufdc.ufl.edu/AfricanAmericanOralHistory. URR 005 Interviewee: Fred Payne Interviewer: Marna Weston Date: June 21, 2012 P: And when I start to tell you about my dad. He got caught in a revolution. And the one of them with [inaudible 0:13] the one that my daddy was, they picked up my mom and two more families and take ‘em prisoners. My grandmomma, she went with my momma she didn’t leave ‘em by herself. They figure if they hold the family they would, the husband would come in, turn theyself in. But the husband didn’t know nothing body, they was [Laughter] out in the revolution with the other soldiers I guess. I don’t know what they—and they ship ‘em to Mexico, to Musquiz, to Veracruz. In Veracruz, Mexico he—my momma stay with her momma—my grandmomma went to with a guy out in selling tacos or something. A little food in her little stand in Calermay. She went over to talk to this man and this man, he didn’t talk English, but he talk Spanish and my grandmomma told him the problem they was in and he told them he said, “I’ll tell you what: I can help you make a note for the American consul.” He said—the American consul was in Veracruz and the Mexican consul is some this—the American consul is in Mexico, and the American one is in Mexico, and the Mexican consul is in the United States. He said, “I’ll take them to them.” And my grandmomma made a note, said they was born and raised in Brackettville, Texas. And he slip over the guy and gave it to the consul, and the consul called, I guess, the army in Mexico and told them to release their family. He said, “You release their family,” and they release ‘em. The consul, he put them on a boat and give them money for they pay their way for the—get all the way to Brackettville and they ship ‘em on a boat and they come to Galveston. That’s where they wind up, in Galveston. In URR 005; Payne; Page 2 Galveston they went to Brackett. Well, uh, they was in Brackett for while, good while. Then the revolution was over in Mexico—when my daddy went over to look for her family he didn’t find it. He find my granddaddy. My granddaddy was over there and he find him and my granddaddy told him, he said, oh, they take your wife and certain family and he said, your momma went with your wife. He said, I haven’t heard nothing body. Well, my daddy said, well I’m gonna look for them. He got on a little train would run, like, bout, I guess, about two or three bucks to go. Would run to a little station with a big bay line and big train would go to—from the Boulder it would go to Mexico City. My daddy got on the little train and he was going towards Mexico City to look for his wife—and my grandmomma. Then he heard everything was quiet in Mexico. Well, she went back to Mexico. She got to switch, get off the lay train, off the big train and get on the little one to go and then she got off the big train. My daddy got off the little one and they meet right there. W: So they found each other? P: Yeah, and she told him, and said, oh, she said, in Brackettville—well, my daddy he come on to the United States. He was an American citizen, my daddy and my momma, they was born and raised in Brackettville. They stayed round Brackett for a good while, till World War I break out. Then World War I here in the United States break out. My daddy didn’t wanna fight no more, he didn’t wanna go to no more war. The United States governor said, all the ones that didn’t wanna fight, they coulda go to Mexico. And my daddy had a wagon and a team of mules and he went back to Mexico. He lured my momma and my oldest brother and he went URR 005; Payne; Page 3 back there, to Musquiz. He drove a wagon all the way to Del Rio all the way to Musquiz—bout ninety miles. He went over there and he stayed over there and raised nine kids over there. W: Before you tell me anymore, as always, one of the reasons we love oral history is because of the power of the narrative. You’re story is so captivating we haven’t even had a chance to open our program yet. This is Marna Weston from the Samuel Proctor Oral History Program, here in St. Augustine, at the Underground Railroad Convention and I’m speaking with Mr. Fred Payne. Thank you for telling us so much this far and— P: Yeah. W: —I know there’s more coming. Mr. Payne, could you tell me when and where you were born? P: Huh? W: When were you born? P: I was born 1929. W: And where were you born? P: In Mexico. W: What city? P: Born, 1929, the twelfth day of September. W: Twelfth day of September. And you’ve been telling me about your mother and father and your oldest brother. What are your mother and father’s names? P: My mother’s name was Muertice. W: Muertice. URR 005; Payne; Page 4 P: And my oldest brother was Tommy Payne. W: And your dad? P: My dad was John Payne. W: Okay. We’re here at this conference that talks about the Gullah-Geechee and the Seminole people. How do you describe yourself? Who are you? What is your background? Who are your people? P: Well, uh about the Seminole people, the way my momma was taught to tell me is they was Winston, Florida to Texas. They helped the United States governor fight the Comanche, the Indians and they did. Then, they withdrew the Indian. The United States governor want to pay them and they didn’t want no money, they want a place to live. And the governor give them a piece a land in the Brackettville, a good piece of land. I say, it was probably around bout 10,000 or 15,000 acres. W: Now, that’s how your family came to live there. P: Uh-huh. That’s where the Seminoles were living and they would call the place— well I—they name it now Folklacky. That’s where all the Seminoles were living and they would raise goats and they would plant corn or crop. They were living there and uh—and the amount of years that—they gonna decide to take away from them. They told him they got to move out. Said to go buy a piece of land in town or rent a house cause he was taking his land to build a post to put soldiers and they did. He take it with him. [Laughter] They build an outpost and start soldiers and everything for World War Two, they had a lot of soldiers then. And then, after they give ‘em their land and it was a little crowded, said the Seminoles URR 005; Payne; Page 5 was a little crowded. Well, Mexico was having problems with the Indians at the same time. Well, they ask the Seminoles and the United States government told Mexico they had some Seminoles that was good fighters. [Laughter] The Indians, they was good on the Indians, and they went to Mexico. They went to fight Mexico, help Mexico. The Indians fight and they did, and then everything settle down. Mexico wanna pay ‘em and they said, no they didn’t want no—they didn’t want no money, they wanted land. Mexico give ‘em land and they still got it. W: Uh-huh. P: They still got it. There’s not much Seminole over there. They were warm, warmer now, full blood Seminole. And that’s the extent of Mexico, just warm. All the rest is half crossbreed. They married Mexican, their daddy or their momma. W: That’s a lot of what this conference is about. People are trying to figure out, how do you know who is a Seminole? How do you know who is a Black Seminole? This one woman you described as full blood. How do you know who is a Seminole or who is a Black Seminole? How do you say who is who? P: Well, to me I couldn’t help you tell, I couldn’t tell. The United States, the Black people of the United States had an education. They can tell the way the Seminole talk. They didn’t talk the English, it was pretty rough. [Laughter] I know a lot of people with this. You start talking to ‘em and they tell you, that we’re Seminole and they come out of Mexico and you can’t talk good English.