Third Session - Thirty-Seventh Legislature

of the

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba

DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS

Official Report (Hansard)

Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker

Vol. LII No. 16B - 1:30 p.m., Thursday, December 6, 2001

ISSN 0542-5492 MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature

Member Constituency Political Affiliation

AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy St. Vital N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson N.D.P. ASPER, Linda Riel N.D.P. BARRETI, Becky, Hon. Inkster N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. Brandon East N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave,Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS,Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUAY, Louise Seine River P.C. DERKACH,Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charles wood P.C. DYCK,Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS. Harry Lakeside P.C. FAURSCHOU, David Portage Ia Prairie P.C. FRIESEN,Jean, Hon. Wolseley N.D.P. GERRARD,Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold Minnedosa P.C. HELWER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES,George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI,Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN,John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY,Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD,Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon. Minto N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. PENNER,Jack Emerson P.C. PENNER,Jim Steinbach P.C. PITURA, Frank Morris P.C. PRAZNIK,Darren Lac du Bonnet P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER,Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C RONDEAU, Jim Assiniboia N.D.P. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG,Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. SMITH,Joy Fort Garry P.C. N.D.P. SMITH, Scott, Hon. Brandon West P.C. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo N.D.P. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin-Roblin P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain N.D.P. WOWCHUK, Rosano, Hon. Swan River 593

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Thursday, December 6, 2001

The House met at 1:30 p.m. instead his daughter Maude Haviemick bludgeoned to death, one of the 14. I wonder ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS what he was thinking as he drove there, knowing that something horrific had happened at his MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS daughter's school. And when he found her body, what did he think then? We know his instinctive, Violence Against Women desperate desire to tum back the clock.

Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister responsible How do parents live after such a death? for the Status of Women): Mr. Speaker, I have Well, Suzanne LaPlante-Edward gave us the a statement for the House. answer. I also think of her today. Her daughter Ann-Marie Edward was murdered along with Mr. Speaker, 12 years ago, on December 6. Maude Haviemick. Suzanne LaPlante-Edward 1989, at l'Ecole polytechnique in Montreal, a found salvation in her struggle to end violence. I heavily armed man murdered 14 women and remember speaking with her a few months after injured 13 other women. In Canada and in her daughter's murder and hearing her passionate Manitoba, his acts on this day have come to resolve to live with grief and not be consumed symbolize violence against women. Each by it. December 6, women and men across Canada meet in our communities in remembrance of I mention Officer Haviemick and Suzanne these women, women murdered in our province, LaPlante-Edward not to upset anyone, but and those other innumerable, often faceless because these two, the grieving parent and the women, who are victims of male violence. fervent activist, are icons, images which tell archetypal stories, stories heavy with truth, This morning, many of us gathered in this especially important today for us politicians. The Legislature and at noon in the Union Centre, and first story is about pain and death and the second this evening people will meet at the Women's of renewal and life. These images, these stories Memorial outside the Legislature, meet in hold the full range of human possibilities and tell remembrance of our sisters and in hope of world me again that all human experiences are vari­ peace. Furthermore, across our province people ation on pain and renewal and testify to our have gathered and will gather, and, by intent and incredible human potential. In reflecting on in spirit, join with us today here profoundly them, I know precisely who I work for and why I saddened by violence and determined, as I said do this work, but equally important I know who earlier today, and here I quote from Shake­ I must work with if we are to become a speare's The Tempest, to create a brave new peace-loving society, a culture where vision and world with such people in it; people determined substance coincide. As John Donne put it, no first to mourn and then to work for change. one is an island entire unto himself.

Mr. Speaker, we have met for 12 years now *(13:35) and there is little new to say, but speak we must, especially as politicians, because silence on the In short, we politicians should, or so I subject is both deadly and a disservice to our believe, be guided by the distress and grief of citizens. Today I think particularly of Officer our citizens, and we should join forces with their Haviemick, from the Montreal police force who, vigour, vision and determination. Then we have on December 6, 1989, was sent to l'Ecole poly­ a chance, and here I paraphrase F. Scott technique to investigate the crime, and found Fitzgerald: to run faster, stretch out our arms 594 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 2001

further and one fine morning achieve our dream. Having attended this morning's sunrise This is what December 6 is all about: First breakfast and memorial service with members mourn, then work for change. from both sides of this House, I welcome the opportunity to put a few words on the record In closing, I would like to read a proc­ about the Montreal massacre and also Canada's lamation that I signed this morning. I know Day of Remembrance and action on violence members opposite would like to respond, and against women. after that I would appreciate it if you would ask the House to rise in silent remembrance of Mr. Speaker, 12 years have passed since a women victims of male violence. But I take, as senseless act of violence took the lives of 14 well, this opportunity to inform the House that women at !'Ecole polytechnique in Montreal. On out of respect for and in remembrance of the December 6, 1989, 14 families lost a daughter, a women murdered in Montreal and women mur­ sister, a mother, or countless others lost friends. dered and brutalized in Manitoba, indeed across A savage act such as this reminds us that our nation, our Legislature flags fly at half mast. violence against women is a very real occurrence in our society. We have to reinforce the message I will now read the proclamation: that this type of abuse, whether it is physical, sexual or emotional, is unacceptable and cannot WHEREAS on December 6, 1989, 14 be tolerated. We must be prepared to take the women were murdered and 13 more injured at steps needed to stop abuse in whatever form it !'Ecole polytechnique in Montreal, victims of a may take and prevent violent acts such as this hate crime against women; and from ever taking place again.

WHEREAS since then, Canadian women, When thinking of events of December 6, including Manitoba women, have observed what should remain in the forefront of all our December 6 as a Day of Remembrance in hon­ minds is the memory of the 14 women whose our of the women murdered in Montreal and of lives were lost. They were slain solely for the all Canadian women who are victims of fact that they were women. Such senselessness is violence; and the nature of abuse itself. There is no reason and, more importantly, no excuse for the actions of WHEREAS the Province of Manitoba is those who perpetrate such horrendous acts. committed to ending violence against women; and It is important to remember that, although the terrible events of December 6, 1989, were WHEREAS it is right and proper that attacks on women, abuse and violence affect Government firmly recognize December 6 as an everyone. Regardless of sex, age, ethnicity or official Day of Remembrance. religion, the problem of violence has an impact upon us all, and we must all contribute to the solution and stop abuse and violence in our Now, I, Diane McGifford, Minister respon­ society. sible for the Status of Women for the Province of Manitoba, proclaim December 6, 2001, be I would like to take this opportunity, designated as a Day of Remembrance in Mani­ Mr. Speaker, on behalf of all members on this toba, and I commend its observance to all our side of the House, to thank the staff of the citizens in our province. Manitoba Women's Advisory Council, including Chairperson Kim Clare, for organizing and par­ Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official ticipating in this event. I would also like to thank Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank Heather Bishop whose music accompanied the the Minister responsible for the Status of event and touched all of those in attendance. Women for her statement. I know that all mem­ * (13:40) bers of the House take the issue of violence very seriously and have worked toward creating a Mr. Speaker, I would like to encourage all safer environment for all citizens. honourable members to take the time today and December 6, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 595 in the days to come to reflect upon the issue of A moment of silence was observed. violence in our society and also to remember the 14 women who lost their lives in this tragedy 12 TABLING OF REPORTS years ago today. Their memory can serve as a reminder the abhorrent problem persists, and we Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): must work together to find solutions to address Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table a number of this issue and work towards a society that is reports: the 2000-2001 Annual Report of safer for everyone. Manitoba Health and the Manitoba Health Services Insurance Plan, English and French Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): I ask for versions, the 2001 Annual Report of the Addic­ leave to speak on the minister's statement. tions Foundation of Manitoba, and the 2000- 2001 Annual Report of the Manitoba Health Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member Research Council, copies of which all have been have leave? [A greed] previously distributed.

Introduction of Guests Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, today, on the 12th anniversary of the awful event in Montreal, it is Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would an occasion for us to dedicate ourselves to a like to draw the attention of all honourable safer Manitoba, a safer Canada, a safer world. It members to the public gallery where we have is a time to dedicate ourselves to promoting with us today from Minnetonka School 21 opportunities for women as well as safety for Grade 9 students under the direction of women. It is a time when we can reflect not only Mr. Larry Pattrick. The school is located in the on events in Canada but, at the moment, we can constituency of the honourable Member for Riel also reflect on what is happening in Afghanistan. (Ms. Asper). That is particularly relevant at the moment, given the struggle by all people, but particularly Also in the public gallery we have from women, against oppression and against oppres­ Gimli High School 26 Grade 9 students under sive societies. the direction of Ms. Ruth Kostuik. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable This, I think, is important for us to Member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer). remember, that the struggle we dedicate our­ selves to is not just a Canadian struggle, it is a Also in the public gallery we have Susanne global struggle, and one that we must be pre­ Barchart visiting from Germany, Warren pared to work with people around the world, to Du Plooy from Winnipeg, and we also have engage others and to move us forward to a world Stefan Schuler. These are the guests, and also which is better and safer for women, as well as the son of the honourable Member for Spring­ for other individuals or groups who may be field(Mr. Schuler). targeted. On behalf of all honourable members, I I believe it is significant that the events of welcome you here today. 12 years ago occurred at an institute for higher education. I say it is significant because one of ORAL QUESTION PERIOD the very important efforts which is occurring not only here but globaJly is to promote education Adult Learning Centres among women. I think it is a critical component Public Inquiry for advancement of societies, for the advance­ ment of opportunities for children, and for im­ Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official proving the well-being for people here and Opposition): Mr. Speaker, before I put my around the world. question to the Premier, on behalf of all the members on this side of the House, I would like Mr. Speaker: Would you please rise for a to welcome the Member for Tuxedo moment of silence. (Mrs. Stefanson) back to her seat. She has gifted 596 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 2001

to Manitoba one of the wonderful things, and Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the member is very that is another human life. So we are delighted liberal with his words. Anyone who, a Provincial that the Member for Tuxedo is here with us in Auditor has stated, has misrepresented their the House today. words should be careful using the word "truth" in this Chamber, very careful. * (13:45) I am not sure whether members opposite or My question is to the Premier. We know that the Leader of the Opposition understands this, HOPE operates adult learning centres in other but I will explain to him that the Provincial school divisions. We also know there are adult Auditor is a servant of this Legislature and a learning centres operating in other school servant of the taxpayers of Manitoba. If there are divisions. The taxpayers of Manitoba deserve any allegations from any citizen dealing with from this Premier an answer on where their taxpayers' dollars, the Auditor has the absolute dollars are being spent. Clearly the answers are sovereign right and responsibility to investigate not coming in this House. So, on behalf of any one of those concerns. If the member taxpayers of Manitoba. I ask the Premier: Will opposite has any specific concern, I would he do the right thing? Will he do the correct encourage him to forward that to the Provincial thing? Will he do what is in the best interests of Auditor. Manitobans and call for a full independent public inquiry into the adult learning centres Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure if the across Manitoba? Premier understands this, that the Provincial Auditor looked into one adult learning centre in Ron. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I, one school division. Clearly, it is a well-known too, want to congratulate the Member for fact that HOPE operates adult learning centres in Tuxedo and Jason and their child, Victoria. other school divisions. In other words, they were Congratulations. Certainly congratulations are in outside the scope of the Provincial Auditor's order. I do not know what else to say here. I am report. HOPE, by the way, is still today receiv­ lost for words with my joy of your return. ing funding for those adult learning centres.

Clearly, Mr. Speaker, this is about doing The member will know that the real shift on what is right in tht! best interests of the taxpayers taxpayers' dollars occurred from the '99-2000 of Manitoba. It is about finding out the truth. Budget where the money went from $6.7 million to some $17 million. It is now budgeted to be *(13:50) reduced by some $3 million and will come in It is a sad day, Mr. Speaker, when we on this about 15 percent below where we came into side of the House find the only way to get the office. truth out of the other side is to call for a public inquiry, but it is the right thing to do and the Mr. Murray: My question again is to the Premier should have the courage to do it. Premier. It is well known that the RCMP are following the Provincial Auditor's report, but we Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, we had the courage to also know that new information has come bring the Provincial Auditor in, unlike members forward. We know that other school divisions opposite. were not within the scope of the Auditor's report.

Mr. Speaker, it reminds one of Dorothy and This is about doing the right thing for the yellow brick road looking for the lion, in Manitobans. It is about doing what Manitobans getting courage from members opposite. expect of their Premier, and that is to tell the truth, to get to the bottom of it. The way we are Mr. Speaker, the Auditor stated that going to find that is clearly if the Premier has the improvements had been made in the total courage to call for a full independent public system. The Auditor also said that other inquiry into the adult learning centres across improvements must be made. The Auditor made Manitoba. � comment c� pages 99 and 100 about the December 6, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 597

Agassiz School Division. In fact, I think not followed the Auditor's recommendation to members opposite asked a few questions about seek legal advice regarding the return of monies the Agassiz School Division; again, a fact that from other school divisions where enrolment contradicts the basic assumptions of the Leader figures may have been overstated. of the Opposition. Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, As I said, the Auditor, and members Training and Youth): We accept the Auditor's opposite do not understand, that is a sovereign report, unlike members opposite. In this area and body, Mr. Speaker, has sovereign powers and all others concerning the Auditor's report, we do responsibilities in law, even-[interjection] accept those recommendations.

Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Loewen: If he accepted the recom­ mendations, he should be taking the necessary Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Whether it action. is investigating previous arena deals and lost files or dealing with the present situation, the HOPE Learning Centre Auditor has performed his functions well. Investigation

The allegation made by the member Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): I want to ask opposite, again, is very selective. From '96-97 to the Minister of Education: Is he refusing to '99-2000, HOPE and outward bound programs investigate other school divisions to protect the that are sponsored by individuals that members Orlikow family, the family who are responsible opposite have made allegations of in this for the operation of HOPE, the family who are Chamber received $3.5 million under the responsible for submitting inflated enrolment previous government. figures? Why is he not investigating their other operations in other school divisions? The termination letter for the end of December this year, Mr. Speaker, means that *(13:55) number has been radically reduced by the present government going into the year 2002. Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Once again, today it took A key one which has also been mentioned question 5 before we had smears and character by members opposite in various spurious assassination take place in this Chamber, a allegations-! withdraw that word "spurious," Mr. shameful re-occurrence that is all too frequent in Speaker-received $1.87 million in '96-97 to the this Chamber of late. year 2000. In the 2000-2001 fiscal year, no money. As the Premier (Mr. Doer) noted, a letter of termination was delivered to the Orlikows in the Adult Learning Centres HOPE operation subsequent to the Auditor's Legal Advice-Funding Repayment report. As the Premier also noted under members opposite who devised the plan for adult learning Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, centres with no fiscal accountability, no program the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) has stated accountability, no legislative framework, the a number of times in this House that the Minister HOPE, through Morris-Macdonald School Divi­ of Education will follow all the recommen­ sion, was funded to the tune of millions of dations of the Auditor, and I quote from dollars. As of the end of this month, that will be Hansard, November 21, when referring to the zero. Minister of Education. He said: "He has sought out and received an Auditor's report, the recom­ Adult Learning Centres mendations of which he has agreed to follow." Orlikow Family Involvement

Mr. Speaker, I ask the Minister of Education Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, to explain to the Minister of Finance why he has as the minister clearly refuses to investigate 598 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 200 I

HOPE, I want to ask him if he will give Mr. Caldwell: A letter of termination was sent assurance to this House and to the people of to officials at HOPE on October 4, post the Manitoba that when he finally withdraws the Provincial Auditor's report, terminating their funding for HOPE this December, will he ensure responsibility for adult learning centres at the that the Orlikows will have no further involve­ end of this month. ment in the operation of any adult learning centre either as operators, as directors or as Negotiations beneficiaries in any way. Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): I ask the Ron. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, minister if he can assure this House that there are Training and Youth): Perhaps the member no negotiations ongoing ·between Winnipeg opposite would like us to ban Manitobans from School Division No. I and the Orlikows Manitoba. We believe in acting responsibly. We regarding ALCs. believe in providing supports to adult learners in this province of Manitoba with fiscal account­ Ron. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, ability, unlike members opposite; with program Training and Youth): Of course, I do not accountability, unlike members opposite; with a represent Winnipeg No. I nor do I represent the legislative framework, as was announced in the family the member opposite refers to, but I can Throne Speech, unlike members opposite. We assure the members and Manitobans broadly that believe in providing educational opportunities this Government has put into place fiscal for all Manitobans. accountability for adult learning centres in this province. We put into place program account­ HOPE Learning Centre ability to ensure that the learners taking part in Letter of Termination adult learning centres in this province have a degree of education that provides excellence. We Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, can assure members opposite that we will also the ALCs and the direction of this Government be putting into place this session legislation have left Manitobans with many unanswered governing adult learning centres, none of which questions. In the Free Press article on Friday existed when tens of millions of dollars were November 30, the minister indicated that the dedicated by members opposite under their money to HOPE was being funnelled through watch. Winnipeg No. I, and under the minister's order, according to a spokesman from the minister's * (1 4:00) office, the Orlikows would be removed as operators in mid-December. HOPE Learning Centre Negotiations I would like to ask the Minister of Education whether the minister can tell the House whether Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): On a new the Orlikows have now been notified about their question, Mr. Speaker, it is sad that I cannot get termination in terms of ALCs in the province of a direct answer from the Minister of Education. Manitoba. I would like to table in this House a cassette Ron. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, and a transcript. The cassette and the transcript Training and Youth): Mr. Speaker, this is deja are of a telephone message of November 29, vu all over again. I believe that question was 200I, at about 6:45 p.m. The message was left responded to two weeks ago. The answer is that by mistake on the wrong answering machine. a letter went out on October 4. The message comes from a phone number associated to Mr. John Orlikow. Mr. Derkach: I would like to ask the minister whether he can provide this House with some I would like to quote the short message from evidence by tabling documentation or correspon­ the cassette. Caller, quote: Hi, Archie. Hi, Helen. dence indicating the termination of the relation­ It is John calling. Archie, just calling to give you ship with the Orlikows. an update on the Orlikow stuff. Not much to tell December 6, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 599 you right now. We are still waiting to hear from minister was dealing with facts. unlike the the school division. We will have more answers Opposition. on Monday, but there has still been increasing political pressure in the legislative regarding Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by Lionel and HOPE and myself. So we will see the honourable Official Opposition House how that works out, but it is steady Eddie right Leader, he does have a point of order. now. Give me a call if you have any questions, 779-2097. Thank you. Bye-bye. I would like to remind all honourable ministers that according to Beauchesne 417: Can the Minister of Education explain, Answers to questions should be as brief as given that he has indicated that he gave the possible, deal with the matter raised and to not Orlikows a termination order in October, why, provoke debate. according to this, the Orlikows still believe that there are some negotiations and still some * * * association with regard to running adult learning centres in Manitoba? Mr. Speaker: I would ask the honourable Minister of Education to please conclude your Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, comments. Training and Youth): I thought I had pretty much seen everything in my two years in this Mr. Caldwell: Well, Mr. Speaker, the question Chamber, but I guess I have been proven wrong. is so low to the ground that I would have to be We have come from the sublime to the underground to answer it, and I do not have a ridiculous in this Chamber in terms of the antics response to it. of members opposite. We had a case earlier in the session where the Provincial Auditor's Mr. Derkacb: Mr. Speaker, all we are asking integrity was much maligned over a number of for is a truthful, honest, up-front answer. days without apology.

Mr. Speaker: Order. My question to the minister is: Can the minister explain then why on November 29 at Point of Order about 6:45 p.m. the caller still feels that there is a relationship for ALCs, when in fact the minis­ Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House ter has said that he has terminated their contract? Leader): Beauchesne's 417, answers to ques­ tions should be as brief as possible, deal with the Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. matter raised and not provoke debate. It is very clear that the minister is having meetings with Mr. Speaker: Order. May I remind all honour­ Mr. Orlikow. able members that the clock is running, and we are trying to get as many questions and answers Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government in as we can. House Leader, on the same point of order. Point of Order Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): I know the members opposite have Mr. Mackintosh: The time in this Chamber, of raised the issue of public inquiry. I think, in fact, course, is valuable time. When members come to there is an inquiry by the public into the baseless this House with information or allegations, it is allegations made by members opposite, the incumbent on them to provide a base for that. innuendo. The John and Archie tape, what that means, this is pathetic when members come into Mr. Speaker, I would ask that you call the this House, make statements without any base at member to order, and advise that if he is all, and then raise allegations, including alle­ bringing telephone conversations into this House gations about criminal misconduct. That is how he also provide a basis to who is making the pathetic the Opposition has become. The calls and who is receiving the calls. 600 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 2001

Mr. Speaker: The Member for Russell, on the Who is taping telephone conversations in this same point of order. province? It is a shameful exercise.

Mr. Derkach: I did provide the transcript for the Mr. Speaker: Order. I will once again ask the House. In the transcript there is a phone number co-operation of all honourable members, please. that is associated with a Mr. John Orlikow. On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, he does have The information on the transcript also says: a point of order. Beauchesne's Citation 417: "Hi, Archie. Hi, Helen." Mr. Speaker, we think Answers to questions should not provoke debate. we know who those people are. I would ask the co-operation of all Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by honourable ministers, please. the honourable Government House Leader, I would like to take this opportunity to take it * * * under advisement so I can review the transcript and the tape. I will bring back a ruling to the Mr. Caldwell: Just reviewing the transcript that House. was tabled, it appears there is someone named Archie, someone named Helen, being called by * * * someone name John. John seems to have a little bit of anxiety. There are a lot of urns and ahs. It Mr. Caldwell: Well, all that is missing from this ends with a thank you, bye-bye. fantasy, Mr. Speaker, is Veronica and Jughead. I can advise the House- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Before I recognize the honourable member on a point of order, I would Mr. Speaker: Order. like to ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please. We have the viewing public, Mr. Caldwell: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I can we have children in the galleries, and I would advise the House that as of Monday, ask for co-operation on decorum, please. December 3, the Orlikows involvement with ALCs in the province was terminated. Point of Order Mr. Derkach: I want to ask the minister Mr. Laurendeau: Beauchesne's 417: Answers whether he would table that letter, because to questions should be as brief as possible, deal earlier in Question Period he said it was with the matter raised and not provoke debate. October 4 when he sent the letter. Can he tell the The member speaks about Jughead. Let us just House then why the Orlikows believed it was go to the Sun where it says: Caldwell, the business as usual as late as November 29, 2001? mangler. Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, after the Auditor's Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government report was released, a letter terminating the House Leader, on the same point of order. Orlikows involvement or HOPE's involvement in adult learning centres was sent out. The end of * (14:10) the month will see the finality of that particular enterprise. All along, in terms of this exercise, as Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, we are not has been said many times in this House, the talking about seeking any information here. We principles of fiscal accountability and program are talking about personal accusations. We are excellence has been foremost on my mind as talking about Helen, Mr. Speaker, nudge, nudge, Minister of Education providing some security wink, wink. I mean, who is Helen? How did this for adult learners in the province that they would tape come into the possession of the Opposition? not be displaced from programs, also providing December 6, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 601 some assurance to taxpayers, assurance that their submitted the tapes, the transcript to the House. dollars were being spent with accountability. The number is available to the members if they want to call John. He is available at the number HOPE Learning Centre Funding which he left on the message, and I am sure that he will confirm that it is his voice on the tape. Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, what we are trying to get to the Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by bottom of this issue here is that a government the honourable Government House Leader, I who said this minister, who rode a high horse have taken that under advisement, and I will do into town and fired the Morris-Macdonald board, the same for this point of order. I will review the at the same time, with the family and the tape. I will review the transcripts and I will bring company who was the main problem here, a ruling back. HOPE and the Orlikows, at the same time the people who were causing the biggest problem * * * here, they have received over $625,000 of public money after the Auditor's report was called. It Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, was cancelled, reinstated. The minister came Training and Youth): Just to recount for the back to the House, said he terminated this member from Lac du Bonnet, school divisions contract, and yet he has neither gone after received the adult learning centre funds from the repayment of that money nor really assured us in Province and passed along that money to adult any substantial way that these people will be learning centres under contract with school gone from this process. divisions. The divisions and elected trustees are responsible for ensuring that audits, credentials, I would like this minister to explain to diplomas, et cetera, were managed, elected Manitobans: Why could the Orlikows still be officials with authority granted to them under saying, as late as November 29, that there has legislation. The system of delivering that money been increasing political pressure in the Legis­ by which tens of millions of dollars left lature regarding Lionel, HOPE and myself, uh, government hands and was transmitted to school so we will see how that works out, urn, but it is divisions under the rule of members opposite steady Eddie right now? had no accountability, no legislative framework and it was a mess. The Auditor notes we are Is it business as usual as soon as this House making important improvements to that system. adjourns today? Will they continue to be funded? Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, we just heard the minister flip-flop. One day he is responsible; Point of Order now it is the school divisions. Is the minister now telling this House that he does not stand by Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House his own press release of May 10, 2001, where in Leader): Mr. Speaker, the question is directed to his own press release he names HOPE, run by the Minister of Education, asking the Minister of the Orlikows, as getting $625,000 of the people's Education to comment on a telephone conver­ money. Is he not now standing by his own press sation between two people, within what context release? for sure has not been laid out here. For the Minister of Education to be commenting on Mr. Caldwell: The member from Lac du Bonnet some third party's conversations is simply not in points with some alacrity, Mr. Speaker. Mem­ order. It is not information that can rightly be bers opposite delivered somewhere in excess of sought from a minister. $3 million to this program. As of the end of this month, there will be no dollars being expended. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Oppo­ sition House Leader, on the same point of order. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Speaker, my final supple­ mentary is to the Premier, if he would answer to Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House this House. Will the Premier then tell us, given Leader): Mr. Speaker, we have already the fact that the Orlikows still believed they 602 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 200 I

were negotiating with Government on the 29th Mr. Laurendeau: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, but of November, can he please explain his there was a bit of noise, and I did not hear your comment to this House that they made a mistake ruling. in July when they reinstated the Orlikows funding? Would he finally give us an Mr. Speaker: That is what I have been explanation, after days and weeks of asking that suggesting to the House since Question Period. I same question? have asked the co-operation of all honourable members because it is very, very hard to conduct Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I the business of the House when members cannot believe it was November 16 when I gave the hear the questions or the answers or when the answer about this issue; that is why the member Speaker is trying to make a ruling. I ask the co­ has the quote. I seem to recall, and I may be operation of all honourable members, please. wrong because it is before my time in the House, but there was a wiretap dealing with the On the point of order raised by the allegations against Bob Jr. Wilson. There was a honourable Official Opposition House Leader, comment on one of the wiretaps: You bring the he does not have a point of order. It is a dispute coke and I will bring the pot. It had to do with a over the facts. corn roast that was taking place by the former

Conservative Party. So I would be very careful *** to interpret. For us to interpret third party conversations in this Chamber- Mr. Laurendeau: Regrettably, I must challenge your ruling. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Mr. Speaker: Order. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Point of Order Mr. Speaker: Order. The ruling of the Chair has been challenged. Mr. Laurendeau: Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne 41 7: Answers to questions should be as brief as Voice Vote possible, deal with the matter raised and not Mr. Speaker: All those in support of sustaining provoke debate. the ruling, please say yea.

Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government Some Honourable Members: Yea. House Leader, on the same point of order.

* (1 4:20) Mr. Speaker: All those opposed to sustaining the ruling of the Chair, please say nay. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, the point of the answer was direct. It was to remind members Some Honourable Members: Nay. opposite in particular and all members of this House, that when you bring information here, it Mr. Speaker: In my opinion, the Yeas have it. is important that the context of the information be laid before the House at the same time. When Formal Vote we talk about pot and coke, it is important to know you are going to a corn roast and not Mr. Laurendeau: Yeas and Nays, Mr. Speaker. engaged in some criminal activity. That is the difference. Mr. Speaker: A recorded vote having been requested, call in the members. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Following Manitoba rules, the time has Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order expired. Please turnoff the bells. raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, he does not have a point of order. The question before the House is: Shall the It is a dispute over the facts. ruling of the Chair be sustained? December 6, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 603

Division termination has been tabled. Could he please correct that or allow us to see the letter? A RECORDED VOTE was taken, the result being as fo llows: Mr. Speaker: The honourable First Minister, on the same point of order. Yeas Aglugub, Allan, Ashton, Asper, Barrett, Mr. Doer: The minister did indicate he will Caldwell, Cerilli, Chomiak, Dewar, Doer, table the letter. It is public record. The Friesen, Gerrard, Jennissen, Korzeniowski, termination with notice has been in the public Lath/in, Lemieux, Mackintosh, Maloway, domain for quite a while, sir. Martindale, Mc Gifford, Mihychuk, Nevakshonoff, Reid, Rondeau, Sale, Santos, Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Schellenberg, Selinger, Smith (Brandon West), Russell, on the same point of order. Wo wchuk. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, the Premier is not Nays clear. He indicated that-this is just for clarification. The-[interjection] Cummings, Dacquay, Derkach, Driedger, Enns, Faurschou, Gilleshammer, Laurendeau, Loewen, Mr. Speaker: Order. I have recognized the Maguire, Mi tchelson, Murray, Penner honourable Member for Russell. (Emerson), Pitura, Praznik, Reimer, Schuler, Smith (Fort Garry), Tweed. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, I only asked the Premier to provide factual information to the Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): Yeas 30, House. Indeed if this letter has been tabled, then Nays 19. we should have a copy of it.

Mr. Speaker: The ruling of the Chair has been sustained. Mr. Speaker: The honourable First Minister, on

*** the same pointof order.

Mr. Speaker: We will revert back to Oral Mr. Doer: I want to correct the record. I do Questions, and the honourable First Minister had correct the record when I am wrong, I would the floor. point out. The minister said that the letter would be made available and it will be, I am sure, Mr. Doer: As I was saying, dealing with the before the end of the day. adult education centres, the question put by the Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik), I Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order would recall last year that when he made an raised by the honourable Member for Russell, he allegation in this House it was investigated by does not have a point of order. That is a dispute the police, and the allegation of kickbacks over the facts. proved to be inaccurate.

True North Entertainment Complex Mr. Speaker, '96 to the year 2000 the Impact on the Winnipeg Blue Bombers programs articulated by the member opposite was $3.5 million. The letter of termination has Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for already been tabled by the member, and River Heights, on a question. obviously the investments in the program have declined radically. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): My question to the Premier. The term sheet of the Point of Order agreement the Province has with True North says Manitoba agrees not to have any Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, discussions with respect to the financing, I heard the Premier just say that the letter of development or approval of a government- 604 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 2001 funded sports and entertainment complex in the also have a document, a draft Treasury Board city of Winnipeg and its immediate trading area document, dealing with a $500,000 public with any third party for not less than 25 years. investment in the Bombers on top of the $350,000 that was put in, in the Budget in the My question to the Premier is this: Since the 1999-2000 year. Bombers are a third party and are looking at refurbishing the existing stadium or developing Rather than supporting that Treasury Board an exciting new stadium some time in the next submission, we have worked to restructure the 25 years, does this provision limit in any way the team. We have appointed Ken Hildahl and ability of the Government to hold any discus­ David Asper to be the provincial representatives. sions with the owners of the Bombers or other We have helped support and have discussed the concerned parties in this respect? hiring of Lyle Bauer. We have worked with the team to have a corporate private fan take support Ron. Gary Doer (Premier): The member, and I of the football team. We are proud of the efforts am really interested in his position this week on the Winnipeg community has made to tum the the new proposed arena because he sent a letter Winnipeg Blue Bombers around. to Mark Chipman supporting and indicating his unequivocal support for the new project. Then My only regret, Mr. Speaker, is the job is he had a press conference a couple of weeks ago not done until we win the Grey Cup. to indicate that he wanted us to suspend our support for the project. Mr. Gerrard: I ask the Premier once again, and it is important to be clear here for the sake of the * (15:30) future of the Bombers. Manitobans will not forgive you if you mess up with the Bombers. We certainly are aware of the situation. We certainly are aware that there are other issues in Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. the documentation that we have to deal with. The section the member references, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker: Order. deals with competitive other arena sites. Mr. Gerrard: We do not want a bomb or Mr. Gerrard: The critical issue here, Mr. bombshell on the last day of the Legislature. Premier, is the future of the Bombers. I ask the Premier whether the clause will limit in any way Now, Mr. Premier, because this is very discussions with the owners of the Bombers or important, by being vague on this question, you other third parties if they consider such sites, leave a cloud over the potential future of the including not only Polo Park but Assiniboia Bombers. I ask the Premier: Will this agreement Downs or waterfront drive for a new stadium, or with True North limit in any way the ability of if the Bombers were to consider including any the Bombers to develop an exciting new stadium sports or entertainment activities in addition to in Manitoba? those presently existing now at the Bombers stadium. Mr. Doer: The member opposite asked the question of whether we could work with the Mr. Doer: I did not get an answer whether this Bombers, and we have been working with the week the member is supporting the new arena or Bombers. In fact, we had a meeting with the not, Mr. Speaker. So I will still await this week's Bombers a couple of weeks ago. We continue to position. work with the Bombers. We have worked with them from the day we have been elected. Mr. Mr. Speaker, the question was whether we Speaker, the-[interjection] can have discussions with the Bombers. I want to indicate to members opposite that, in fact, The member from Fort Whyte still, I think, before we were sworn in, we were told that the feels bitter, but I do not want to interpret what Bombers would not meet payroll on October 10, his words mean, Mr. Speaker. The bottom line is upon our swearing-in on October 5 of 1999. We the- December 6, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 605

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. *(15:40) A matter of privilege does take precedence Mr. Speaker: Order. over business of the House once the member has obtained the floor in recognition of being Mr. Doer: I said, Mr. Speaker, the matter was in recognized for a matter of privilege. A point of the public record. The bottom line is we have order is what stops the business of the House. A agreements in place to deal specifically with point of order is raised once a member has been competitive arenas. We believe that there is great recognized on the floor to raise the matter of co-operation, there is excellent co-operation privilege. I am trying to be fair and follow the between the proposal for the new entertainment rules of the House. centre, the ownership, which is the public of the Winnipeg Blue Bombers, and we are confident An Honourable Member: So the matter of the only step missing now in going to the future privilege takes precedence. is that step to win the Grey Cup.

Mr. Speaker: That is right. So I did not Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, recognize him on a matter of privilege. I Training and Youth): I would like to table, recognized the member on a point of order, to Mr. Speaker- which he said no.

Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Member An Honourable Member: He had the floor. He for Russell, on a point of order. asked for a matter of privilege.

Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker: Oh, no. When a member rises for on a matter of privilege. a clarification of the House, whether it is a question or debate, when any member rises, the Mr. Speaker: On a matter of privilege. Speaker has to ascertain if the member is rising on a point of order. That is what I did, because Mr. Derkach: I rise on a matter of privilege this any member who rises when the other member afternoon- has the floor, I ask: Is it on a matter of point of order? If it is no, then we will continue with the Mr. Speaker: Order. For the clarification of the business of the House until the member receives House, I recognized the honourable Member for the floor for other business than a point of order. Russell on a point of order. Normally when a That is the rules. Once the member has obtained point of privilege is raised, it is raised when a the floor on a matter of privilege then it takes member rises and is recognized for the privilege, precedence over any other business of the and I had recognized the honourable member for House. a point of order, which stops the business of the House. An Honourable Member: I will not sit down.

What I will do is I will recognize the Mr. Speaker: Order. I will recess the House for honourable Minister of Education (Mr. a very brief period of time to meet with both Caldwell) for his comment, then I will recognize House leaders in my office, and we will come the honourable-[interjection] A member has to back and resume House business. The House is be recognized for privilege in order to entertain recessed for five minutes or until we come back the privilege. I had recognized the honourable to the House. Member for Russell and I asked: On a point of order? And he said no. I did not proceed further The House recessed at 3: 43p.m. from that. I was recognizing the honourable member for a point of order. I will entertain the honourable Minister of Education. Once he has The House resumed at 4:03p.m. concluded, I will recognize the honourable Member for Russell on his privilege. That is the Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, process of the House. Training and Youth): Mr. Speaker- 606 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 200 I

Mr. Speaker: Order. what is the tradition of the province of Manitoba and this Legislature and share that letter by Mr. Derkach: Matter of privilege, Mr. Speaker. tabling it in this House.

Mr. Speaker: The honourable member is rising Now, Mr. Speaker, jurisdictions across this on a matter of privilege. country respect this rule very much. As a matter of fact, in the Parliament of Canada, I believe the MATTER OF PRIVILEGE records will show that even a Minister of Justice was brought before a committee for doing this Tabling Priority very same thing. So we have to, as the province of Manitoba, respect democracy, respect the Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, rules of the House and I daresay respect the I rise on a matter of privilege today, under­ legislative amendments and laws that have been standing that a matter of privilege has to meet passed in this Chamber. two tests. One is that the matter is raised at the earliest opportunity, and, secondly, that I can I read this letter, and there is another issue establish a prima facie case for this matter. that comes forward that is related, because I had asked the question about whether or not the I rise at the earliest opportunity to raise in family of Orlikows had visited or had met with this House that my privileges as a member have any government people regarding the operations been breached because the Premier (Mr. Doer) of HOPE, and, Mr. Speaker, this letter points out of this House indicated in his response to the today that they had, on October 3, and it was the House that the Minister of Education (Mr. Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) who said Caldwell) had tabled a letter to this Assembly. I they had not. So what a tangled web is weaved questioned the Premier on this in my point of here by the Government with respect to this order, and it was at that time that I learned that whole issue of adult learning centres in the the Minister of Education had indeed shared this province of Manitoba. letter with the media prior to tabling that letter in this House. Mr. Speaker, today it climaxes with the Minister of Education going out into the hallway Mr. Speaker, that is indeed a breach of the and instead of being forthright and sharing that rules of this House, rules that we have all letter of termination here in the House, tabling it respected over time and members of this Legis­ in front of the Legislature so that all members of lature have respected over the course of time in this House would have that information, instead the province of Manitoba. No member, no minis­ he chose once again, as he has done in the past, ter should ever have contempt for this House and to break the laws of this province, to go out into not follow the rules. the hallways and to share it with others before he would share it in this Assembly. When I raised this matter with the Premier this afternoon, I wanted to assure myself that the Now, I say to Manitobans: How can you question that we had asked about the minister trust this minister and this Government when tabling information during Question Period was they do actions of this nature? That is why I rise not misunderstood by the Premier or by his today in frustration, and, yes, somewhat in anger minister, Mr. Speaker, because we had asked because of the way that this minister, this earlier in the session, earlier today, that the Government, this Premier (Mr. Doer) is treating minister table that termination letter, which he not only this Legislature but the good people of did not. this province.

Mr. Speaker, when the House rose on a vote Mr. Speaker, Manitobans expect better from during Question Period for a period of time, the their Premier. The people who are involved in minister and his staff quickly went out into the education, the trustees, the teachers, the parents, hallways and shared this letter of termination the children expect better from a Minister of with members of the media. They did not do Education. A Minister of Education should not December 6, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 607 at any time knowingly break the law. There are Repeatedly in this House, we have asked for questions here with respect to boundaries, as to the minister's openness, the minister's honesty whether or not this minister has broken the law, and his consistency, Mr. Speaker. I think, something we will get to the bottom of at some through our questions in this House, we have point in time. established that there has been some question in each of those categories. That is why there is Mr. Speaker, this is not a matter that we can such concern, not only by the members of this ignore. I know it is going to be difficult for you House but, indeed, by Manitobans, because our to rule on this matter. I found it very phones are ringing off the wall. Information that uncomfortable today to have to stand at a time was tabled today in the House is coming in when a point had to be made in this House about because Manitobans are concerned about the a ruling that you had made, but, nevertheless, actions of this minister in protecting his friend. you did a wise thing in consulting with the House leaders and then coming back with the No one can excuse the Premier (Mr. Doer) ruling. I respect you for it because you have from this, because we asked the Premier very always ruled in fairness in this House. early on to remove this minister, to call a public inquiry and to have this matter dealt with in the open by an unbiased individual or group, Mr. But, Mr. Speaker, it does not take away Speaker. No one questions the authority of the from the seriousness of this matter. The reason Provincial Auditor, but there are questions that we had asked for this letter was to assure beyond where the Provincial Auditor stopped his ourselves that, in fact, the Government had done review. He raised those issues in his review. He the right thing in severing its relationship with talked about them, and so on that basis my the Orlikows and HOPE in a timely manner, as leader asked the Premier of this province to clear they had said in the papers, and to square that the slate, to bring forward an independent with the fact that we had received a taped judicial person who could do an independent message where there was an indication that, inquiry into the allegations that are being made indeed, that relationship was not severed. with respect to the adult learning centres in the * (16:10) province of Manitoba. So, Mr. Speaker, somehow we have to get to Mr. Speaker, all of these issues point to the the bottom of this and understand what the true fact that we have an unfortunate situation in the facts are. That is the purpose of Question Period. province of Manitoba, one where the Minister of That is the purpose of the Opposition here in this Education has put himself in a very uncom­ House. I have nothing personal against the promising position, one that he should know Minister of Education and Training (Mr. well enough to resign from the office of Minister Caldwell). He is an honourable member of this of Education. The trustees are meeting in this House, but any honourable member in this province as we speak. We read in the papers House can make a mistake. And, so, when we today about their concerns about how the ask for the facts, it is to assure ourselves and minister is conducting his affairs. There are very Manitobans that, indeed, the rules of this House, serious concerns by trustees across this province the laws of this province have been followed in how he is indeed taking his responsibilities to accordance with what has been laid down over the people of this province. time. These are not new rules; they are not new laws. They are laws that were established so that Mr. Speaker, there are many shortcomings. democracy can prevail in the province of In raising this issue as a matter of privilege, I do Manitoba as it should. it at the earliest convenience that I could. I walked out of this House to make sure that there I hear comments from the other side that was not a letter that was shared with media say: What laws has he broken, what laws has he before we had it. I found out the opposite; that, transgressed, what rules has he transgressed? indeed, in a very underhanded way, just like the Well, Mr. Speaker, the rules are the rules of this money that was slipped into Agassiz, we have a House. minister who is slipping information without 608 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 200 I being forthright in the House, without sharing it that one day in this House, on the issue of adult with members of this House. learning centres and in the course of questions to this side of the House, a member of the Mr. Speaker, I say to you that you have a Opposition mumbled something to himself to the very onerous responsibility here in dealing with effect of criminal fraud. That caused a real this matter, in ensuring that justice is brought to problem for the Opposition, because, by that this Chamber and to the members of this Legis­ heckle, as a result of those words from the lature, and that this matter then must be referred member's seat, the Opposition had to rise to meet to a committee of this House. that new leg on the story, because it was published in a local paper. They were captured So, without taking any more time, I want to by that heckle. They were so captivated by that move, seconded by the Member for St. Norbert heckle that they had to elevate the debate even (Mr. Laurendeau), that the actions of the Minis­ though they did not have the material. So what ter of Education (Mr. Caldwell) in providing we had were allegations unbelievably against copies of a letter or document to the media honourable members, one in particular, perhaps without first providing that document to the two, of criminal misconduct, with no substan­ Legislature as requested, after that document had tiation, no law, no evidence. It debased this been repeatedly asked for by members of this institution. House, constitutes a breach of privileges of the members of this House and that this matter be It went from there, Mr. Speaker, to referred to a committee of this House, Mr. allegations against a highly respected officer of Speaker. this Assembly, the Provincial Auditor. It went from there to allegations that the Premier (Mr. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Doer) ordered two deputies in a position of Leader): Mr. Speaker, what we see before us- power over the Provincial Auditor, ordered him to change his words. Not only was that an Mr. Speaker: Order. Before the honourable unfortunate reflection on the Premier of this Government House Leader continues, I would province, on two deputy ministers, but, most like the co-operation of all honourable members, particularly, on the integrity of a public servant, because I need to hear the words that are spoken an officer of this Assembly, a person that rises in order to bring a fair judgment back to the above partisan politics, a person who is not able House. So I would ask the co-operation of all in this Chamber to defend himself, and it was honourable members, please. shameful.

Before recognizing any other members to So they were captured by the mumble. What speak, I would remind the House that contri­ we have today is a further effort to try and butions at this time by honourable members are elevate this discussion, try and give it some new to be limited strictly to relevant comments as to legs just to keep it going. Because they are whether the alleged matter of privilege has been caught they had to move it to today. What does raised at the earliest opportunity and whether a this do? I ask this question of Manitobans: Does prima facie case has been established. it serve to deflect from the former government's financial flubbing of the adult learning centre Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, on the first point program? I ask Manitobans: Does it serve \0 as to whether the matter was raised at the first deflect from their scandalous cover-up of their opportunity, I think it would not be acceptable mismanagement? humour to argue that it was not. Surely the answer, because there is a public On the issue of whether there is a prima inquiry, as I said earlier, an inquiry by the facie case, what we have before the Assembly public, they see that the Opposition that we now and before Manitobans this afternoon is one have in this province is prepared to say anything more effort on the part of the Opposition to try without any foundation whatsoever, and that is and give this issue some legs. Because I will tell their credibility at stake. It has suffered. And that you what happened from our point of view is is the story of this session. December 6, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 609

* (16:20) in this House July 11, 1986, in citing Speaker Jerome, a highly respected Speaker, of co�rse, �f Now, to the very minor point made by the the House of Commons from 1976. He satd: It ts member opposite in the so-called matter of clear that parliamentary privilege does not privilege and on the issue of whether there is � extend and never has extended to compelling a prima facie case, Mr. Speaker, I would find tt minister or prime minister to make a statement interesting if the Opposition was now prepared in the House under any circumstances, regard­ to provide to members in this House any less of the importance of the subject. I would documents that they provide to the media. Is that take it that the word "statement" would refer to the new level, the new expectation? This is both written and oral statements. ridiculous. Mr. Speaker, there is no matter of privilege Mr. Speaker, what we have in this House is here. There is not even a matter. a member rising on a matter of privilege. It is not even a breach of rules; it is not even a point of Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. order. I remind the member opposite that in our Speaker, I rise to speak on this matter of rules it says a question of privilege ought rarely privilege. I think it is important that the matter to come up in the Legislature, and that means that has been raised deals specifically with the something very important. It means that privi­ tabling of a document which has been asked for lege is a very, very high standard to meet. It and, instead of tabling it, the Government has means something very fundamental, something shown it to the media before bringing it to the that has prevented the ability of members to do members of this House. There is no question that their work as members has taken place. most of what the Minister of Justice has said is irrelevant to this specific problem. What the Mr. Speaker, I will just conclude very Minister of Justice has said at the end of his simply by saying this. It has been recognized, remarks, which deals with whether it is the right and this is a long-standing recognition in our of a minister to present something outside this parliamentary system and indeed in this House, Legislature before putting it in the Legislature, that, first of all, and I refer to Beauchesne's there is just no doubt that a minister does have Citation 31(3): "Statements made outside the that right. House by a member may not be used as the basis for a question of privilege." But there is an exception, right? And that exception is important, right? That exception Now, the word "statements" is used there, occurs where we have had a document which is but more important to the point is this. It is said to be tabled but was not, where we have had Citation 31( 10), and it deals directly with the a document that has been asked specifically for matter raised. The member opposite should well in this House that has not been delivered, that have known that and had this advice, and I will clearly that document should be delivered in this quote: "The question has often been raised House before it is delivered to the media. whether parliamentary privilege imposes on ministers an obligation to deliver ministerial statements and to make announcements and This is a specific case and it is my view that communications to the public through the House in this case the privilege of the members of this of Commons or to make these announcements or House has been breached by the actions of the statements in the House rather than outside the Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell), and that it chamber. The question has been asked whether is time that this goes to committee and is dealt Hon. Members are entitled, as part of their with there appropriately. parliamentary privilege, to receive such infor­ mation ahead of the general public." Mr. Speaker: The honourable member is rising. I hope the honourable member has new infor­ The conclusion, Mr. Speaker, was this: "I mation. can find no precedent to justify this suggestion." That is the law of Parliament. Further, I will just Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Yes, I refer to a matter of privilege that was determined do. 610 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 200 I

Mr. Speaker, this is a very serious matter tell the House if he or his deputy had any because the ability for us as members of the meetings over the course of, since January of Legislature to do our work, our work as MLAs, this year with the Orlikow family or adminis­ non-Cabinet ministers, members of the Opposi­ trative representatives of HOPE." tion in this case, is to be able to put the actions of government to the test of public scrutiny. That The Minister of Education's (Mr. Caldwell) is what our role is. That was the role of members answer is very instructive because the Minister of the New Democratic Party when they sat on of Education said this, and I quote: "Certainly, this side of the House, and that is a critical part Mr. Speaker, I have had no meetings with of our parliamentary tradition. It is a funda­ representatives of HOPE." I should also add-and mental foundation on which our democracy is these are his words-"that · on October 4 the based. Department of Education sent a letter to HOPE indicating that funds, and I will quote directly Some of the rules around which we have to from the letter," and he goes on to quote that operate as a Legislature holding the Government letter, the letter that he did not table but provided to public account is that ministers of the Crown to the media. have an obligation when we are requesting docu­ mentation that they are making reference to and Well, Mr. Speaker, when we look at that talking about, to bring it forward and bring it letter today, and I believe the Minister of forward first, when it is requested, to members Education has provided a copy, this letter says of this Assembly before they go and make it very clearly, and I quote from it: As you are public elsewhere, because they answer not to the aware from our meeting this morning, and it is media but they answer to this House, this House signed or at least the original was signed by Mr. which represents the people of the province of Ben Levin, his deputy minister. Manitoba. That is so fundamental, Mr. Speaker, that by not doing that, they breach the privileges So the Minister of Education, when asked if of all of us because we cannot do our job. · he liad had a meeting, or his deputy, with representatives of HOPE, and this letter is But, Mr. Speaker, this particular document addressed to Mr. John Orlikow, he came to this has somewhat of a greater significance because House and said no, he had not, but he used this this is not the first time that it has appeared letter to imply that there had been r:c: meeting during the course of this session. Why the that, in fact, there had only been a letter sent, and minister's failure to bring it forward before it he did not provide this letter. He was reluctant was tabled in this House or before the Govern­ every time we asked in other Question Periods to ment claimed to table it in the House, I think, is provide documentation. He refused to provide it. worth considering as you deal with this matter of Well, the reason is very clear, Mr. Speaker, privilege. because this letter was the proof that his department, his deputy, had had meetings with The minister himself made reference to this the Orlikows, and he as a minister never got up document on November 23. He quoted from this in this House to acknowledge that fact. document and he did not table it, which is required by our rules. I would like just now for * (16:30) the benefit of members of this House to hear the exchange in which it was raised, because I think He did not-well, I am careful of my words-I this also starts to give some explanation as to would suggest that his actions in hiding this why there is a very serious matter here. letter day after day were to cover the fact that there had been meetings between the Orlikows On November 23, I asked the minister, and I and his deputy, and the minister did not want quote: "I would like to ask the Minister of Edu­ that to become public. That is why he refused to cation, given that his department ordered an bring that letter to this House. That is why he audit, funded HOPE, took away their funding, refused to bring the facts to this House. And reinstated their funding, took away their funding today, when the whole issue of whether or not and funds today, I want to ask this minister to the Orlikow family would be continuing to December 6, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 611 operate HOPE, and, remember, this is a minister question was asked. We know the member who came to this House, got on a high horse and opposite should read the rules, because the said we have terminated them. They will not be member who had asked the question could have running these centres, when in reality, as this exercised their right under our rule 37, and I letter clearly indicates, when the few problems want to read it: Where in the debate a member are worked out, they could be back in business. quotes from a private letter, any other member may require the member who quoted from the So, again, this Minister of Education was letter to table the letter from which the member not being forthright with this House. But today quoted. But this rule does not alter any rule or when he was pushed, again he wanted to use this practice of the House relating to the tabling of letter to show that he had been tough, he had documents other than private letters. given notice to the Orlikows. But what he forgot was it also proved that he had not been truthful They could have asked for the letter to be with this House. It also proved he had not been tabled at that point in time under our rules. They truthful but, furthermore, that the Orlikows, just did not. Do not tum your negligence as an as the new information we brought to this House opposition into conspiracy theories. suggested: If this dies down, well, business, steady Eddie. It will be back in business. Mr. Speaker, I will continue because I find it rather interesting. I am tempted to say, quite Mr. Speaker, this minister breached the frankly, that members on this side of the House privileges of this House, of all members of this need no lectures from members opposite about House, yes, by sharing this with the media preventing members of the House from doing before he brought it to this Chamber. But let us their duties as members of the Opposition. Some make no mistake, the reason he did not bring it must have some rather long memories. But the to this Chamber was this was further proof of his House leader was quite correct to point to deceit to the people of Manitoba. Beauchesne Citation 31.( 1 0), because there are clear rulings that appointed that it is not a matter Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of of parliamentary privilege, even to deal in Transportation, with new information? ministerial statements being required to be made in this House, or announcements in the Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Trans­ communications, which clearly we reference to portation and Government Services): Yes, Mr. this. Speaker, with new information. I say to members opposite, if they read not I will preface my comments by suggesting only our rules but 31(1 0) again, if they had that when members opposite use a matter of simply done what they had the right to do as an privilege to stand in their place and talk about opposition in the first place and ask for the letter, terms such as "deceit," or I think probably the they could have had that done. It would have lowest I have seen reference on a matter of saved us the last several hours of procedural privilege, which is a serious matter, from the wrangles, all the conspiracy theories and an member who raised the matter of privilege talk opposition that I see getting to new lows. about "breaking the law," I say it shows how little concern members opposite really have in I mentioned the term, the member from Lac terms of the functioningof this House. du Bonnet getting up on a matter of privilege and clearly impugning motive on the integrity of I will start with the new information for the a member of this House. I remind the member, Member for Lac du Bonnet, who, I think, should who is a former Government House Leader, that know better. I would suggest that he read, Mr. all members of this House are honourable mem­ Speaker, and you read in consulting on this, our bers, and we do not need that kind of a statement rule 37; because you know what is interesting, on the record on a matter of privilege. he tried to create some conspiracy theory out of the fact that a letter was not tabled by the I would also suggest, and with some real Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) when the disappointment here, terms like "criminal fraud," 612 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 200 I which the Government House Leader referenced division boundaries. Is the minister today pre­ to a statement that was never made by a member pared to table criteria that he used that have on his feet, a member who should know better, somehow eluded school division trustees, but a statement that then was recorded in the municipal government, parents organizations, public record, never once repeated outside of members of the Legislature and indeed all this House, I would say, statements about the Manitobans? Is he prepared to table those Provincial Auditor. The Provincial Auditor is criteria today? above and beyond any of the kind of accu­ sations, the low-level accusations I have heard from members opposite. When they questioned Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): I did answer that the process that was involved in this case, they question yesterday. questioned the Provincial Auditor. That IS unbecomingof any member of this House. Amalgamation Criteria I say to members opposite, having spent Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): On a some time in opposition, as other members have new question. done in this House, that every opposition is entitled to raise questions in this House. They Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for are entitled to use whatever rules, including rule Minnedosa, on a new question. 37, are at their disposal. But let us draw a line at some of the conspiracy theories, some of the grossly exaggerated statements, the accusations Mr. Gilleshammer: Does the minister stand by of motive, references to criminal fraud and his answer of yesterday that wnen I asked him if breaking the law. If the members have an issue, the number of students in the school division let us hear it. We have not heard it thus far, and was one of the criteria, he said no? Does he this is not a matter of privilege. stand by that answer that he gave yesterday, which he will find in Hansard on page 538? Mr. Speaker: A matter of privilege is a very serious concern. I am going to take this matter Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, under advisement to consult the authorities, and Training and Youth): As I repeatedly put on I will return to the House with a ruling. the record, both yesterday and in earlier sessions, that enrolment patterns, assessment-based, com­ We will go back to Oral Questions, and the munity of interest, transportation patterns, com­ honourable Minister of Education and Training monality of programming, program harmony had the floor. were all criteria that were asked of school divisions a little over a year ago to undertake HOPE Learning Centre their analysis and report back to the department. Letter of Termination-Tabling I did also say that we did not have a pre­ conceived notion of X number of school Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, divisions and X number of students being our Training and Youth): I rose to table said criteria for imposing amalgamations. document. I know that members opposite have the material, because I sent it over to the honour­ able Leader of the Opposition some time ago. I Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has will table that right now. expired. Introduction of Guests School Divisions Amalgamation Criteria-Tabling Request Mr. Speaker: Prior to members' statements, may I draw the attention of honourable members Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): to the Speaker's Gallery, where we have with us Yesterday, in Question Period, the minister Mr. Roger Godard from Richer, Manitoba. On committed to considering tabling the criteria the behalf of all honourable members, I welcome Government used to craft the new school you here today. December 6, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 613

House Business dealing with a point of order that was raised by the honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. I Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House have to deal with one point of order, and then I Leader): Mr. Speaker, on a little bit of House can entertain another point of order. I cannot business, I wonder if I might seek leave for this entertain a point of order while I am dealing with House to resume its sitting on Monday morning. a point of order. I understand the Government is busy putting a spin out in the halls, that they would like to have On the point of order raised by the certain things done. We are prepared to be sitting honourable Member for Turtle Mountain, I had here on Monday if the House is prepared to give recognized the Official Opposition House leave. Leader (Mr. Laurendeau) on House business, and to be fair, I was recognizing the honourable *(1 6:40) Government House Leader (Mr. Mackintosh) on Mr. Speaker: The honourable member has House business. I was just trying to be fair to proposed seeking leave to sit on Monday. Is both sides of the House. there leave? ***

Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: Now the honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet, on a point of order. Mr. Speaker: Leave has not been granted. Point of Order Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I have never seen Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): something so pathetically transparent. Perhaps I Mr. Speaker, I just want to ensure that we all should table the rules, especially the rule that the understand that the Minister of Culture (Mr. Opposition insisted on. That is, that you, Sir, Lemieux) said that we should not be back till the adjourn this House at the end of the first full end of May. week of December. If they want to do work, we are here now. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet, he Point of Order does not have a point of order. *** Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): Just for clarification on this side of the House, I Mr. Mackintosh: Just to conclude my remarks, would like to ask on what reason or grounds the Mr. Speaker, this Legislature sits at cost of about member opposite was on his feet making a approximately $10,000 a day, I understand. It is statement. important that we use our time well. We have been sitting for about four weeks, and all we Mr. Mackintosh: I was standing on a matter of have seen from members opposite is a weak­ House business. That is what this matter is that kneed, indecisive, dithering response to impor­ is before the House. On the matter of House tant bills, including bills regarding public safety. business, I believe that we have not yet entered We have seen filibusters; we have seen walking into members' statements. out hour after hour after hour.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker, the Opposition is here now. They have been here for weeks. It is too bad that Mr. Speaker: Order. they did not attend to the public interest and get going with the bills. An Honourable Member: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

Mr. Speaker: I can only deal with one point of Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Official order at a time. I already am in the process of Opposition House Leader, on a point of order? 614 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 2001

Mr. Laurendeau: Mr. Speaker, it is on the same the work done in this Chamber, no commitment. House business as the honourable Government They know full well the legislative schedule. House Leader brought up. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS I do believe that we do have a process, Mr. Speaker, where we deal with bills. We have St. James Centennial Pool Expansion done it over the years where we have moved bills through this House in the fall and dealt with Mr. Jim Rondeau (A ssiniboia): I would like to them in the spring sessions, and we have passed bring all members' attention to an important certain bills as we have done this fall. We have announcement that was made in Assiniboia passed two bills through the House. It is not that recently. John Harvard, representing the federal we are not prepared to continue to sit; we are government; Glen Murray, the Mayor of the City prepared, but the new rules that we are under of Winnipeg; Peter De Smedt, councillor for St. state that we should be rising on the sixth. That Charles ward; Bonnie Korzeniowski, MLA for is why I had thought that we have leave, because St. James; and I had the pleasure of announcing this side of the House we are prepared to an expansion to the St. James Centennial Pool continue to sit and have public consultation on through the infrastructure program. these bills. This new wellness recreational facility is Mr. Speaker, the member speaks about the sorely lacking in west Winnipeg because of the $1 0,000 that it costs to operate this House. They following reasons: one, there is a large are funding a lot more than $10,000 on their percentage and concentration of seniors in the phantom students for this Minister of Education province in west Winnipeg. There is a lack of (Mr. Caldwell). any recreation or wellness or physical fitness facilities. Recreation and physical fitness fits We are prepared to stay here and deal with into our Government's focus on preventative the matters before this House if they are ready to health �a1 e. Research shows that those people work. who are physically and mentally active rely less on hospital care and thus save our province Mr. Speaker: Order. To be fair, I will recognize money. the honourable Government House Leader, but I do not think the floor of the Chamber is the Since the Unicity mall has closed there has place to do the negotiations. I would encourage been no place for the mall walkers to walk and the House leaders to meet, but I will recognize no heart for the community, no place for meeting the honourable Government House Leader to within their community. This facility will create balance it off. a place for youth to participate in appropriate physical fitness and sports activities, providing a *(16 :50) safe place for youth to expend energy, will avoid Mr. Mackintosh: I know the Opposition House difficulties with law and legal problems in the Leader is asked to do certain things, but House future and less vandalism. business and seeking leave is, of course, appropriately done when it is meant to achieve I would like to commend all three levels of its objective, done with the House leaders government for taking proactive action in health discussing these matters. That request, of course, and wellness for the seniors, youth and families was done to try and speak to the media. This is in west Winnipeg and particularly Assiniboia. I not speaking to the issue of public interest. would like to thank all those involved who continue to improve the quality of life for a I know the Opposition wants to come back, people in our province. I think this is long-term and they want some more practice with their forward thinking, and this facility will provide a questions. I know that with Question Period. wonderful opportunity for all those people in Goodness knows they need it, but this west Winnipeg. Thank you very much, Mr. Opposition has shown no commitment to getting Speaker. December 6, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 615

Mr. Art K. Dyck Force is largely in my riding. My colleague the Member for Assiniboia (Mr. Rondeau) and I MF,. Jack Penner (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, it learned while canvassing our constituents that gives me great pleasure today to rise on behalf of there were seemingly small but significant the members of this Legislature to congratulate discrepancies in their rights as residents of Mr. Art K. Dyck of Altona for having been Manitoba. named a life member by the Association of Municipalities in the province of Manitoba. Mr. This proposed bill addresses those incon­ Dyck was born and raised in the Plum Coulee sistencies. It will grant new voting and driver's area. He moved to Altona and became an licence privileges for Manitoba armed forces employee of the Altona Credit Union and then personnel and their immediate family members, later on a board member of the board of directors especially those who are posted outside the of the credit union. He was a charter member province for extended periods of time. of the local Sunflower Toastmasters Club, and he was a member of the board of directors of the It is important that the basic privileges of Pembina Valley Development Corporation. He those people who leave their families and friends also served on various committees of his church. to serve on our behalf are preserved. Armed He has served on three different school boards forces members are frequently relocated or sent over the 20 years and was chairman of each of on training or military missions, and are often those three school boards. He also was very not allowed to vote in Manitoba general elec­ involved in helping to set up the Rhineland tions or by-elections. This bill proposes to School Division. change that.

He has been a three-term mayor of the Town This bill also recognizes the fact that it is of Altona and has served in many different areas common for military personnel and their with distinction in the educational system. He families while posted away to miss the renewal participated in the amalgamation of the Union of dates on their Manitoba driver's licences. They Manitoba School Trustees and Manitoba Urban would now be allowed to continue accumulating School Association, and he was a regional merit points as if they had renewed on time. director and table officer of the MAST board. He was a chairman of the resolutions committee for I feel that this bill will send the message that MAST and a trustee on the trustee development we support our armed forces members and their committee. families, that they are valued as full citizens. This bill is, in the eloquent words of the Premier He has served as faculty of education (Mr. Doer), "a more tangible tribute than words" committee and graduate studies and research. He to the work of Canadian Armed Forces has been a member of the advisory board for the Personnel. Thus, I would like to congratulate the Minister of Education. In the province on Government for recognizing the contributions municipal matters, he has been a board member and sacrifices made by these people. Thank you. of the Manitoba Association of Urban Muni­ cipalities, and he has been a president of the Emergency Services-The Gladstone Hospital former MARM Association. He has also chaired the resolutions committee of MARM and served Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, in many other capacities. For many, many years I rise to point out a concern. I have gradually a public servant, we congratulate Mr. Dyck and come to the conclusion that in many ways this wish him well in the future. province is on the threshold of going into a two­ tier health care system. The Gladstone Hospital, The Canadian Forces Personnel Act in one of the communities where I am responsible for representation, is trying to Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski (St. James): The deliver health care services in their community, Canadian Forces Personnel Act is certainly good including emergency services. They have news for many of my constituents and of great worked with the surrounding municipalities and interest to me, because the 17th Wing of the Air the Sandy Bay community to try and make sure 616 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 200 I that emergency services will be put in place to people assembled there to celebrate the opening serve the entire area on the larger criteria that of the temple. Mr. Speaker, I think it is great to they now should be responsible for delivering see that the Sikh community now have another within the RHA. venue in which to worship and to promote their religious and cultural values. At times like this, I Mr. Speaker, we now have reached a think that we are able to see how fortunate we crossroads in the development of this health care are as Canadians to be living in a society that service in my part of the province, because if we accepts and even encourages people of diverse do not have emergency services that are supplied cultural and religious backgrounds to share their in the Gladstone Hospital, then we will see the ethnic heritage with the community at large and development of the ambulance service that will express their particular beliefs. It is this precious in fact move the people out of the community mosaic of cultural values that enriches our into either Neepawa or Portage. Frankly, the society. largest community which I have the honour of serving is the Sandy Bay community, and they Further, I think that within Canada itself our are going to be faced with an additional 20- Winnipeg is one of the best examples of a minute drive to Portage Ia Prairie once the society that fairly reflects the values of various ambulance service is in place. people who openly and freely share their cultures. It is in this great spirit of multi­ To me, that borders on being unacceptable culturalism that I welcome the Gardwara in terms of the fact that the community has Kalgidhar Darbar into our society. I want to worked with the RHA to develop a doctor rota thank Mohinder Saran A vtar Sidhu, Darshan Gill and have doctors and physicians in place who and Baljit Sidhu for inviting me and for their are ready to provide service. The facility is in warm reception and fine hospitality. place, the RHA is supportive, and I now believe that it is time for this Government to sit down I offer the Sikh community my best wishes. with the community of Gladstone and with the May this temple serve the spiritual needs of the surrounding areas of Sandy Bay, Westbourne, community in the years to come and may this Plumas, and help establish not a two-tier system new outlet enrich the cultural fabric of our but a health care system the same as we can province. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. expect everywhere else in this province.

*(1 7:00) * (17:00)

Gurdwara Kalgidhar Darbar MATTERS OF GRIEVANCE

Mr. Cris Aglugub (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, Minister of Education on Sunday, December 2, 2001 , I had the Adult Learning Centres/School Division privilege of attending the auspicious occasion of Boundaries the official opening of the Gurdwara Kalgidhar Darbar. It is located at 2762 King Edward Street. Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): Mr. It is Manitoba's newest Sikh temple. Speaker, I would like to exercise my right to speak on a grievance today and I think speak for I was fortunate to join the Minister of aggrieved Manitobans who work in the school Labour and Immigration (Ms. Barrett), Mayor system, who are part of the school system and Glen Murray, Winnipeg City Councillor Mike generally taxpayers of this province. O'Shaughnessy, Member of Parliament Judy Wasylycia-Leis and the Member for Kirkfield Park (Mr. Murray). Also present were many We have seen the convergence of two issues prominent members of the Winnipeg Sikh in this session. This is, in many ways, unprece­ community. dented, to see two issues converge and land on a minister's desk at the same time, whereby he has I was also privileged enough to be among stumbled and bungled his way along and those given the chance to address the many Manitobans are completely, thoroughly and December 6, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 617 utterly dissatisfied with his performance. I know decision-making. I might say, to their credit, the the minister is somewhat sensitive about this in Premier (Mr. Doer) and the Minister of Finance trying to defend himself, but I would like to (Mr. Selinger) have also recognized and refer­ reference some editorials, people who watch this enced it. Now we know the Premier has some House, who watch these issues and understand important decisions to make, and all Manitobans these issues and comments that they have made hope he does the right thing. in recent times. Probably a little more hard-hitting editorial I am going to reference just briefly the adult the next day, the very next day, in the Winnipeg learning centre issue with Agassiz School Sun. It says the minister must resign. It says the Division. Here we had a school division that was Manitoba Minister of Education has become an attempting to register the appropriate number of embarrassment. It says that he is the one students in their adult learning centres and report responsible. He is the one who must prove he is an accurate number. Internally they found a capable of managing the Department of Edu­ discrepancy. They did not have 600 students; cation and the vast sums of money it oversees. they had 400 students. Perhaps he is guilty merely of stupidity rather than the fraud opposition members are eluding in We have a Department of Education, a the House. This does not make us feel one whit minister and a deputy minister who very better, nor, we suspect, will it endear the minis­ deliberately said: Do not give us the correct ter to the people of Manitoba who pay taxes and number, give us the wrong number, thereby ultimately his salary. To apologize for becoming registering 600 students and receiving upwards an embarrassment is not good enough. To make of half a million dollars inappropriately. I excuses is less so. We have one word for the respect the deputy attorney general, who came minister, and that is: Resign. So this is the first out to speak on this and said: Because you have issue that the minister has fumbled very badly. both parties recognizing this scam, because you had both the school division knowing that they I would like to move to the second issue, were putting forth numbers that were not correct because I know my time is limited. That has to and you had a minister encouraging and accept­ do with school division boundaries. I believe ing those numbers, there was no wrongdoing very strongly that he is in violation of his own here in the eyes of the law. act in that he did not put in place and did not meet the prerequisite of having a process that all Well, we have to accept that, but this Manitobans were aware of, having a process that certainly is a very unethical way of flowing allowed for the public of Manitoba, educators, money to a school division. The minister not trustees, division people, as well as municipal only knew about this and approved it, at one corporation people, a chance to review the plan time he said he took it to Treasury Board, at one that the minister had. He has fumbled the ball on time he said all of Cabinet knew about it, at this one as well. another time he said he had delegated authority to do this. And there were times when he said, well, it was just somebody in my department that I would like to just read into the record some did this. of the many letters I have received on this issue. From the Chairman of Assiniboine South, Well, Mr. Speaker, Manitobans have lost Wendy Moroz, who is chair of the Board of complete confidence and faith in this minister. I Trustees, it states: The Assiniboine South would reference two editorials. November 21 in Council of Presidents is extremely upset that the Winnipeg Free Press it says: The question is they were not given the opportunity to be whether the Education Minister (Mr. Caldwell) involved in this decision-making process. Their is up to the task of cleaning up the mess. His trust in the democratic process has been eroded. outrageous decision to outright forgive one Mr. Minister, you have stated repeatedly, in a school division's enrolment overstatement to the variety of forms, that you value this organization tune of half a million dollars is not a good start. and its way of doing business. The Council of They go on in the editorial to reference his poor Presidents feels that their ability to preserve their 618 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 200 I unique way of working with the board and the Again, the minister has left no process for community has been destroyed. review. The minister has allowed for no public input into this, and people all over the province That is very, very strong language from a are questioning what this minister and what this chair of a school board. She goes on to say: The Government is doing. In this letter to the board finds it difficult to envision the outcomes Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk), from of which you speak. They are questioning what one of her mayors, it says, in closing: If the NDP the minister is saying and what the minister is government continues with this plan, they will doing. She goes on to say: Our school com­ have done a real disservice to a community and a munity and our staff are justifiably concerned region which has historically supported them for and confused. Again, this minister has not been over 40 years. forthcoming. This minister has not put in place a process which is acceptable to trustees and This goes to bedrock support in the indeed the public of Manitoba. Government's party. This is a terrible mistake, and it is time that the Cabinet reverses this, stops Another person writes, and this is the mayor this process and gives people an opportunity to of a northern community, Snow Lake. He says in see what they are doing. his letter: The present government has lacked leadership, direction and a framework in their *(17:10) attempt to realign the future of our educational system. They feel very strongly, a northern I would also indicate, from another reeve, mayor, that they have been left out of the the reeve of the R.M. of Alonsa. again, com­ process. The process has been lousy. They have plaining and pointing out that they have been left had no input into this decision-making. out of the process, that there has been no criteria so that people can measure what the Government I would indicate a letter from another mayor, wants to do, no allowance for public input in this Mayor Henry Dyck of the village of process. Winnipegosis. He writes, and this was written to the Minister of Agriculture, your Government's I am surprised that there are senior members recent announcement regarding amalgamation of that Cabinet who were around government came as a shock and surprise to the Village of before, who know how important the process is, Winnipegosis council. It is difficult to under­ and they have allowed this minister to stumble stand why the NDP chose to avoid open around trying to make decisions that are going to discussions with the affected municipal govern­ come back to haunt them. I say to the minister of ment. There were no open discussions with highways that it is not too late to stop this people who are very, very concerned about their process, put in place an open process to allow communities, their schools and the school Manitobans an opportunity to speak on this division. issue, because I can tell you that they are not happy. He goes on to say, in his mind, that harmonization of contracts are going to cost This particular reeve from Alonsa is saying several million dollars. We had a trustee that he believes that you are leaving a small speaking out yesterday in one amalgamation, school division that costs the taxpayers huge thinking it was going to cost them $2 million amounts of money in administrative costs and alone. The Mayor of Winnipegosis goes on to questions why, in this process to harmonize and say, they question why the entire division was bring school divisions together, you would leave not put into Frontier School Division. Part of it a school division in central Manitoba with 700 was that while the remaining Duck Mountain students without bringing them into this plan for School Division area of Winnipegosis and amalgamation. Ethelbert were leftto a negotiated dismantling of their existence, why did the Government not We know that this minister publicly-and I transfer the entire Duck Mountain School am sure he regrets it-said week after week, I am Division with Frontier School Division? going to Cabinet. He comes out of Cabinet; I did December 6, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 619 not get it done. Next week, I am going back to do anything about it, people who have supported Cabinet with my new plan, comes out of her and her party for 40 years. We have also Cabinet, and says, no, it has been rejected. Week seen in Springfield, where the Member for after week after week. In fact, it was said that he Transcona (Mr. Reid) is trying to goad us in was rejected eight times. It is no wonder. The saying: We gotcha, we made this decision on only reason it was accepted was that they had to political grounds. That is not acceptable, it is not get an announcement out before the session going to work, and it is not going to fly. started. They would have been far better to put this on the back burner, to leave this for another Yesterday in this city, trustees were meeting, day, because what we have is a very half-baked and, without exception, trustees of this province amalgamation here with all sorts of questions are saying they are criticizing the manner in being asked by municipal officials, by school which this was done. There are so many unan­ board officials who have had no input into this. swered questions. Now the minister is going forward and saying that we have to get rid of the I know the Member for W olseley (Ms. current school boards by a certain day this Friesen) who spent some years as a critic for summer so we can put the interim ones in place. Education, spoke out herself, saying amalgama­ These are duly elected trustees who are in place tion was not good. She put out a press release till October. saying there would be no money saved. Is it not a surprise that sitting at the Cabinet table, she Now, we know the minister has fired one would allow this half-baked plan to go ahead. board, and perhaps he has an appetite to fire She would know that Manitobans were not going many more, but this plan, in fact the minister to be happy, that trustees were not going to be lacks a plan, and that is the real issue here. I can happy, that the public is not happy, and I do not tell you that the editorial page of the Free Press know how this got by the Deputy Leader of the and the editorial page of The Winnipeg Sun are Government, the Deputy Premier (Ms. Friesen) dead on, and I hope the Premier (Mr. Doer) of this province, who very clearly before said reads them. that this was not a good idea.

Consideration of The Limitation of Actions This reeve joins many mayors and school Amendment Act board officials saying that this merger is not a Delays good idea. Now, there is public support for fewer school divisions. That is not the issue Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): On a here. The issue is the process. It is the process. grievance, Mr. Speaker, I rise because I believe [interjection] The Member for St. Vital (Ms. that the members of this House should have been Allan) who, I think, sat very close to the minister able to deal with Bill 8, The Limitation of when this was announced I am sure had her Actions Amendment Act, in this session. There input along with the Member for Dauphin (Mr. should not have been the delays, the various Struthers), the Member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) things that have happened in this session to who wanted to craft boundaries to punish allow this session to close without dealing with people-made serious, serious mistakes here. Part Bill S. of the plan was to carve up a municipality. The minister is now saying: I am adhering to the Norrie report. Well, the Norrie report said very Bill 8 is important that it be dealt with clearly to leave municipal boundaries in place, quickly, because we are dealing here with a bill that in crafting new boundaries, municipalities which affects people who are seniors, who in should be put in totality into a school division. many circumstances may not have very long to live, and who have been affected by residential Here we have seen, in the Minister of schools many, many years ago. It is unfair to Agriculture's (Ms. Wowchuk), riding a school these people that there have been the delays in division cut up three ways. We have reeves and this session that have meant that this bill was not mayors complaining about the fact that she did dealt with. This is an important bill, and it is not speak up at the Cabinet table, that she did not important that it be dealt with sooner. 620 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 2001

Mr. Harry Schellenberg, Acting Sp eaker, in the close the House too early some days. So the fault Chair is not just on the side of the NDP. The fault is on both sides on this bill. I have been here and When we look at the security bill, quite ready to deal with this bill-[interjection} frankly there are some major issues and a lot of considerations that come into consideration of Mr. Speaker: Order; order. Thank you. the security bill. It should be that we should take our time, but this bill, in fact, affects people who Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, it is true that there are often not well, who are near the end of their are some major problems with the legislation as life. It is not fair to them that their cause should the NDP has cobbled it together, that the basis of not have been looked at and dealt with, whatever this legislation which is retroactively imposing the decision, in this Legislature in an expeditious rules, laws, on people going back more than 30 way during this session. years, imposing liabilities on churches which were not there before based on events of more This law seeks to address an inequity in than 30 years ago, imposing liabilities when Manitoba law and the other provinces. Not many who worked on behalf of the churches are dealing with this means that we will continue to no longer adequately able to defend themselves have a law on the books in Manitoba which puts because they are no longer even alive-dearly, Manitoba citizens who are elderly or often there needs to be changes to this legislation to infirm, who have suffered for a long time, at a more adequately address these sorts of issues. distinct disadvantage compared with the citizens of other provinces. This anomaly, this failure to The churches did many good things, as well deal carefully and compassionately with Mani­ as the problems, and this bill does not recognize toba citizens who have been abused in resi­ the important work of the churches in trying to dential schools in an adequate fashion is not do some very positive things for people in acceptable, Mr. Acting Speaker. Manitoba.

* (1 7:20) I think I can speak from some personal knowledge here because my grandfather was a Now, in principle, I believe that this issue missionary, a physician, a teacher who worked should have been addressed. It should have been in Zambia and Kenya for many years. Although addressed quickly. There are, of course, some this was different from the circumstances of major problems with this legislation which mission schools in Canada, residential schools in should have been dealt with by hearing people in Canada, nevertheless I think it is important that committee and bringing forth some major we be sensitive to the good that many people amendments. But the issue should not have been who worked in such circumstances tried to do. let rest and let wait until March or April or May Many in the First Nations community, as I have or June, whenever the NDP decide to bring us talked to recently, will admit that there were back. some very positive things that came from many who worked in a positive fashion in the Mr. Speaker in the Chair residential schools, even though quite clearly there were some major, major problems. The NDP have been slow to bring this Legislature to session. They have been slow to So we need to address the wrong that was bring forward this important bill. They are committed in the residential schools and perhaps determined to end the Legislature sitting later in other circumstances many, many years ago, today and not willing to sit on Monday to finish but, in doing so, we should not commit another considering this bill. wrong at the same time against the churches and put on them liabilities for which it is difficult to On the other hand, there was time that was defend after many, many years. wasted by having bells ringing much longer than they needed to be by the Conservatives. There This bill should have been dealt with. It was were delays because the Conservatives agreed to possible. There was time, but that time was not December 6, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 621

used as effectively as it could have been, and it cost to the students here in the adult education is unfortunate that this legislation has been centres. delayed. It is sad now that dealing with it will have to wait for months, two months, three Mr. Speaker, I am calling for a full months, four months, five months, six months, independent public inquiry of this situation we do not know, and create uncertainties for because of the chaos the adult education system people who have suffered enough. is in right now. When we talk about adult education centres, we talk about centres that are filled with students who want to get education to This is a tragedy of this particular circum­ provide them with jobs, to further either their stance, Mr. Speaker. It is a tragedy that could education, to feed their families, to equip them have been avoided by dealing with this legis­ for the world outside of the school boundaries. lation quickly, so both parties on both sides of this would know where they stand, where the Here in the province of Manitoba, we have risks are, where the compassion is, but clearly had a government, we have had a minister, who the compassion has not. been here as it should totally neglected the needs of the adult learners have been. here in the province of Manitoba. We have high school students and students in junior high who I felt compelled to rise on this matter as a are wondering why this present Minister of grievance because I feel that my capacity at the Education is saying one thing at one serum or Legislature, my ability to represent people in this one media event and another thing at another province well has been subverted by the delays meeting and yet another thing here in the that have occurred in this House and the delays Legislature. that have occurred in dealing with this important legislation. It is important for those who are This full independent public inquiry is elderly, who have suffered for many years, that necessary to clean up the mess that has been this legislation should have been dealt with, and created. When we have a minister that says on it could have been dealt with. I have spoken. November 17, tells the media that the funding Thank you. for Agassiz School Division went to the Cabinet for approval and then two days later in a serum Adult Learning Centres says that he approved the funding and a day later Call for Independent Public Inquiry says he used his delegated authority to flow the funding, and yet on another time says his deputy Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, on minister has taken responsibility. Yet another a grievance, I would like to put some comments time he says he has been made aware of the on record, because we have a very serious transaction after it occurred, and yet on the very situation here in the province of Manitoba. I same day said he was aware of the funding want to address the issue of the students transaction before it occurred. attending the adult education schools and the families here in the province of Manitoba. The adult education issue here in the province of Manitoba is in total chaos. Members Throughout this whole session, this province on the other side of the House, the Minister of has been filled with the kinds of headlines where Finance (Mr. Selinger) said: No, this kind of we see our Minister of Education being put action did not meet the standards. The Premier through a scrutiny because of some decisions (Mr. Doer) has said that it was the wrong thing that were made. When we see headlines like to do. The process that the minister has used to "Caldwell must resign," when we see headlines address the adult education issue was not like "Expensive lessons" in reference to the kind correct. All of these things have been said here of funding that was used and the kind of in the Legislature. They have been reported in manipulation of funds that was used by this the media. We have clipping services again that Government and by the present Minister of are saying: Caldwell must resign, or the minister Education, we forgot about one thing. Members must resign. We have even had reference to the on this side of the House are very aware of the way the minister has presented himself. 622 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 2001

I ask this House, Mr. Speaker: What Legislature to be carried forward, it is very impression is this giving to the students of our important that they are willing to come back on province? What impression is it giving to Monday and deal with this. If they want another Manitobans? I have to say that it is a disservice week off, or Christmas off, come back at least, to the students and to Manitobans. This kind of in the very least, at the first opportunity immedi­ decision making, this kind of lack of courage on ately following New Year's, so we can get back the part of the Premier (Mr. Doer) to put a stop here the I st of January or the 3rd of January. to this kind of chaos has caused members on this side of the House to call for a full independent Mr. Speaker, it is unfortunate in four short public inquiry. weeks that members on this side of the House had to deal with the chaotic issues in the adult * (17:30) education centres. They also had to deal with the decisions that the present government and On the other hand, there has been some very Minister Caldwell made regarding the flow of serious legislation brought forward. As the very important funds. I must say that I taught in member from River Heights (Mr. Gerrard) the school system for 22 years, and we had to stated Bill 8 should have been addressed. As we count our students very carefully, because those said, Bill 2 is a very serious piece of legislation students were recorded. That is how we got that should be addressed faster than immedi­ funding. It was not allowed to cheat on how ately. The business in this House, Mr. Speaker, many students were enrolled. We cannot do that. has been so serious that members on this side of Principals cannot do that. This Minister of the House have challenged this present Education (Mr. Caldwell) has put principals at government to come back here to this House on risk in this regard. The headlines now are Monday and deal with this legislation. showing that Manitobans do not have confidence in this Government, they do not have confidence We have said on this side of the House that in this Minister of Education. This full, we are willing to stay and sit, but because of the independent public inquiry has to come to pass chaotic events that have taken place as a result of to clear this mess up. this present Minister of Education's (Mr. Caldwell) actions in flowing money through to I want to make it quite clear here in this Agassiz School Division and condoning, Legislature, members on this side of the House supporting, even suggesting, or helping the do not want to stop important legislation from funds being flowed through for students who going through. We wan[ to deal with Bill 8. We were not there. This is an example to the rest of want to deal with it quickly. We want to deal our students in the school systems that the with the fortified buildings legislation, and we dishonest, deceitful way that funds have been want to deal with it quickly. We want to deal supplied to certain school divisions, and yet not with Bill 2. We want to deal with that one very supplied to other school divisions, is under carefully, and as quickly as possible, after the question. public knows what is going on: after the farmers know how it impacts on their lives, after the That is why members on this side of the people, the ordinary citizens living in their House are calling for a full, independent public homes, know how it impacts on their lives. We inquiry. We are also calling for the present want members on this side of the House believe government to come back to work on Monday, in the democratic methods. We believe in the sit in this Legislature and deal with the very way Canada was founded, on the democratic important Bill 8. Bill 8 is very important. It has right of people to be able to live, grow busines­ to be passed, but members on this side of the ses, be educated, and learn in our wonderful House will not pass bills that do not go out for province and indeed in the country of Canada. public consultation. Bill 2 is one of those bills. Bill 2 is a bill that can alter people's daily lives We just heard a member's statement a little here in the province of Manitoba. earlier from a member from the opposite bench If this present government is serious about that stated that Canada was a wonderful country wanting the bills passed and the business of the to live in. The reason why it is a wonderful December 6, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 623 world is because we have people like members Mr. Speaker: The agreement is that the on this side of the House who do make the Lieutenant-Governor will enter at 20 minutes to, Government accountable, however uneasy that which is half a minute from now. might make members opposite. We want members to be accountable. We want the full *(1 7:40) independent public inquiry. We want the mem­ bers opposite to come back on Monday, or very ROYAL ASSENT quickly in January to deal with the bills at hand. Let it be on record that I agree with the Member Deputy Sergeant-at-Arms (Mr. Blake Dunn): for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard) that Bill 8 is a His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor. very important bill that needs to be dealt with, and we can do that. We ask for leave in this His Honour Peter Liba, Lieutenant-Governor of Assembly today to come back to work on the Province of Manitoba, having entered the Monday and deal with these bills. House and being seated on the Th rone, Mr . Sp eaker addressed His Honour the Lieutenant­ I want to thank you for this time, Mr. Governor in the fo llowing words: Speaker, and I would hope that we would be back on Monday, or at least very early in January, to deal with the business at hand for Mr. Speaker: Your Honour: Manitobans. The Legislative Assembly of Manitoba asks House Business Your Honour to accept the following bills:

Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): Bill 4- Leader): Mr. Speaker, the House Leader and I The Order of Manitoba Amendment Act; Loi had a discussion on House business. The House modifiantIa Loi sur I'Ordre du Manitoba Leader and I had a discussion that the L.G. would be coming in, so I was wondering--oh, Jean is here. She can interrupt proceedings. Go Bill 300-An Act to Amend an Act to ahead, Jean. Incorporate the Portage District General Hospital Foundation; Loi modifiant la Loi constituant en Mr. Speaker: Order, I have to finish grievances. corporation la Fondation de l'Hopital general du No more grievances? Now I will call Orders of district Portage the Day. In Her Majesty's name, His Honour assents ORDERS OF THE DAY to these bills.

Hon. Jean Friesen (Deputy Premier): Mr. His Honour was then pleased to retire. Speaker, we would like to call Bill 8. Mr. Speaker: Please be seated. Revert to Orders Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House of the Day. Leader): Mr. Speaker, we had an agreement with the House leader that we would be calling ORDERS OF THE DAY in the L.G. at 20 to, so we are interrupting the (Continued) proceedings, otherwise we would have carried on. House Business

Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, there have been discus­ Leader): My understanding is, Mr. Speaker, that sions about having the Lieutenant-Governor in bills have been called. If you would call Bill 8, for Royal Assent at 20 to, and I understand that Bill 6, and then the other bills as they appear for those arrangements are on schedule. debate on second reading. 624 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 200 I

DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS When we take a look at the trust that Manitobans have in the members of this Mr. Speaker: Resume debate on Bill 8, The Assembly, these Manitobans are taking the time Limitation of Actions Amendment Act, standing to come forward and say that they need to be in name of the honourable Member for Arthur­ heard, that they need to be listened to, that there Virden (Mr. Maguire). needs to be a time where some of these scars can go through a process of healing and go through a Is it the will of the House for the bill to process whereby they can come to terms with remain standing in the name of the honourable the things that have happened to them. It also Member for Arthur-Virden? [A greed] has to do with the role that members of the Legislature play in the everyday lives of the Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, I citizens in Manitoba. take this opportunity to talk to or speak to Bill 8. It is a very important bill as the member from Members on this side of the House, Mr. River Heights stated a little earlier. It is a bill Speaker, are very caring, compassionate people that has been brought forward, that has who know individuals who have experienced modifications to it. This bill makes two changes things that no child or no young adult should to The Limitations of Actions Act. First, it have ever have experienced. It is all about trust. provides that an action for assault can be It is all about building lives, and it is never too commenced at any time, regardless of when the late to do that. assault took place, if the assault was sexual in nature, the victim had an intimate relationship * (17:50) with a person who committed the assault, or the victim was financially, emotionally, physically It is unfortunate that. in this Legislative or otherwise dependent on a person who com­ Assembly over the past four weeks, we have not mitted the assault. Secondly, the bill provides had an opportunity to deal with the bills in the that a 30-year limitation period that arises if a manner that we wanted to deal with them. person is or has been under a disability does not Members on this side of the House take Bill 8 apply to specified actions. very, very seriously and are very compassionate and very caring about the individuals whose Mr. Speaker, there are many ramifications of lives were touched by the events in their lives. this bill. When we take a look at what has Over the past four weeks, it has been evident happened historically in Canada, and we take a that the lack of responsibility from members on look at the justice system we have here in this the other side of the House to deal with the wonderful country, we know that the rights and issues that were brought forward in Question privileges of all people are something that we Period, the issues that were centred upon this hold dear. There has been the issue of residential present government to deal in a very concise and schools where there have been some very, very honest way with not only a minister who was good residential schools, where students were unwilling to do that, but also members opposite cared for in a very loving, kind way. There have who were unwilling to deal with the problem at been other times when students have been placed hand, which caused much debate in this at risk, and they have undergone humiliations Legislature. and have been dishonoured in such a way that young people have had scars on their lives that, We have very serious biils like Bill 8, like unfortunately, cannot be erased. As the member Bill 2, like The Fortified Buildings Act, and Bill from River Heights has expressed, a little earlier, 6, that have not had the attention that is needed. it is very true that even when these children That is why members on this side of the House grow up into adulthood, and, indeed, in their have said very clearly that we have called for senior years, these scars are not erased. They are members, for this Government, members on the damaged. These people still have nightmares, opposite side of the House, the present govern­ still have ramifications that have plagued them ment, to take time to come back to work on as a result of sexual assaults and of mistreatment Monday, come back to work early in January to that had occurred even in their younger years. deal with these very important issues. December 6, 2001 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 625

Centred around Bill 8, as my colleague from So, when we come to this Legislature at this River Heights has stated, it is unfortunate that time, and we have a few short minutes to speak Bill 8 has not been addressed so far in this to the bill, it is an inadequate time to talk about Legislature. I have to say that the ramifications the ramifications of the essence of this bill. In of Bill 8 will impact in a large manner on our every family situation, or in any friendship court system. It will impact in a large way on the situation, there is also always the foundation of citizens here in the province of Manitoba. It trust. The thing that hits to the depth of any behooves members of the Legislature to take the individual soul is when someone that you care time to address such important bills, to put it out about, who is a friend or a family member or a to the public for consultation and get feedback trusted member of the community, violates a from members of the community about what victim in such a way sexually or physically in their wants and wishes are. any way, something happens to that individual's spirit. That is where the lack of confidence, and that is where lives are altered and people are Mr. Speaker, it is time to hear and listen to changed. the people who were touched by the acts that unfortunately and tragically impacted on their That is why I have to say in this Assembly it lives to such an extent that it caused other is so unfortunate that we have not had the problems, where alcohol and where depression opportunity to deal with these very important and where uncertainty and lack of confidence bills. That is why in this Assembly today we were manifested; indeed, the lack of a desire to have asked for leave for members opposite to fulfil their life dreams and hopes. return to this Chamber. We want to deal with this bill very quickly, as quickly as possible, to It was very important that we have this be able to deal with the issues centred in this bill. opportunity here in the House to deal with this We are talking about personal lives. We are bill, to deal with the issue centred around here. talking about the personal ramifications that are In terms of the specifics of the bill, The not only impacted on the victim, but on the Limitation of Actions Act is amended; the families of the victim. This is something that is definition of assault, for instance, in section 2.1 still prevalent in victims every day, whether they includes trespass to the person and battery. This are asleep or whether they are awake, in their bill outlines that no limitation period re: certain hopes, in their dreams, in their confidence in assaults, like "an action for assault is not themselves. governed by a limitation period and may be commenced at any time if (a) the assault was of Having said that, it is unfortunate that a sexual nature; or (b) at the time of the assault, serious consideration has not been taken to allow the person commencing the action (i) had an this Assembly, by the present government, has intimate relationship with the person or one of not allowed this Assembly to look into these the persons alleged to have committed the bills and to take time to come forward. As I said, assault, or (ii) was financially, emotionally, members on this side of the House are very, very physically or otherwise dependent on the person willing to continue working on the bills, to or one of the person's alleged to have committed continue collaborating with the public regarding the assault." these bills. Bill 8 is one that has to be handled in a very sensitive, caring, forthright manner to Mr. Speaker, this bill is so important, allow people to be vindicated. As the member because the essence of the bill is built on the from River Heights has indicated, a lot of these people who the victims have trusted and are victims now are seniors. They do not have a lot members of their community, of their family, of of time. They do not have a lot of years. their foundation. So this is a very sensitive bill that definitely will open some hurts in some This bill needs to be shared with the public, ways, but also is attempting to bring some needs to be shared with these people. Indicators closure to some of the things that have and counsel are given to members of the Legis­ transpired-a time that people have in their lives lature so that we can handle this very important that has not been resolved. legislation in a very intelligent, concise manner. 626 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 2001

So the laws that are passed in this Assembly will Manitoba. Right now we are seeing a blatant, enhance people's lives, will build for the people uncaring, defiant attitude regarding Bill 8. We of Manitoba, instead of doing other things. need to come back to deal with this. It deals with personalities. It deals with issues. It deals with Having said that, and I know that our time is real people, real things. coming to a close, I would say that it is very, very important that we do stay in the Assembly, Mr. Speaker: Order. When this matter is again that we do come back to work on Monday, that before this House, the honourable Member for we do build on what we have started. Unfortu­ Fort Garry (Mrs. Smith) will have 27 minutes nately, we have not seen the Government come remaining and also, as agreed, will also remain forward at this time and say yes. Members standing in the name of the honourable Member opposite are not willing right now to come back for Arthur-Virden (Mr. Maguire). to work on Monday. Having said that, we are asking that indeed they do that because this bill Provisional rule 2.(4) states: If a new session is one that is of prominent importance. is commenced in the fall, the House shall be adjourned by the Speaker at the end of the first This bill, there is one part of it that I want to full week in December, without the question emphasize that I think that we have to be very being put, provided the Throne Speech has been careful of. The part where it talks about, and I passed, and the House shall stand adjourned mentioned it just a few minutes ago, section until the call of the Speaker. 2.1(2) where the assault is of a sexual nature. Not only that, but the assault is from a person Before I adjourn the House, I would like to "with an intimate relationship with the person or take this opportunity on behalf of myself and my one of the persons alleged to have committed the family, the table officers and their families, and assault, was financially, or the victim was all of the Legislative Assembly staff and their financially, emotionally, physically or otherwise families, to wish each and every one of you and dependent on the person." We are talking about your families all the best in the holiday season children. We are talking about youth. It has been and all the best in the coming new year. very chaotic. It has been a travesty of the rights of Manitobans in this Legislature over this past session. Therefore, in accordance with the pro­ visional rule, the hour being 6 p.m., this We have seen a blatant defiance of the needs House is adjourned and stands adjourned until of the students in the school system here in the call of the Speaker. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Thursday, December 6, 2001

CONTENTS

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Gerrard 609 Praznik 609 Ministerial Statements Ashton 6II

Violence Against Women Members' Statements McGifford 593 Murray 594 St. James Centennial Pool Expansion Gerrard 595 Rondeau 6I4

Tabling of Reports Mr. Art K. Dyck Jack Penner 615 Annual Report of Manitoba Health and Manitoba Health Services Insurance Plan fo r the The Canadian Forces Personnel Act fiscal year ending March 3I, 200 I Korzeniowski 615 Chomiak 595 Emergency Services-The Gladstone Hospital Annual Report of the Addictions Foundation Cummings 6I5 of Manitoba for the fiscal year ending March 3I, 200I Gurdwara Kalgidhar Darbar Chomiak 595 Aglugub 616

Annual Report of the Manitoba Health Matters of Grievance Research Council for the fiscal year ending March 3I, 200 I Minister of Education Chomiak 595 Gilleshammer 6I6

Oral Questions Consideration ofThe Limitation of Actions Amendment Act Adult Learning Centres Gerrard 619 Murray; Doer 595 Loewen; Caldwell 597 Adult Learning Centres J. Smith 62 1 HOPE LearningCentre Loewen; Caldwell 597 ORDERS OF THE DAY Derkach; Caldwell 598, 600 Praznik; Caldwell 601 Royal Assent Praznik; Doer 60I Caldwell 6I2 Bill 4-The Order of Manitoba Amendment Act 623 True North Entertainment Complex Gerrard; Doer 603 Bill 300-An Act to Amend an Act to Incorporate the Portage District General School Divisions Hospital 623 Gilleshammer; Caldwell 612

Debate on Second Readings Matter of Privilege

Tabling Priority Bill 8-The Limitation of Actions Derkach 606 Amendment Act Mackintosh 608 J. Smith 624