[ABSEM3BLY.1

(2) If funds were available, how long LCrg4uautur Arnwmbly would it take to complete the respective tasks mentioned in No. (1) (a), (b) and Wednesday. 16th October, 1957. (c) ? CONTENTS. (3) If the respective tasks set out in No. Page (1) (a), (b) and (c) were completed, what Questions : Education, (a) overtaking class- would be the effect on- room shortage, etc. ... 28.0M (b) Moors State school, accommoda- (a) teacher requirements under each tion, etc. 2281 heading; Traffic, drunken driving charges 2281 (b) annual education costs under Road reserves, statutory authority to each heading? destroy trees _ ... .. -2281 The MINISTER replied;, Main Roads Department, work on assisted roads .... 2281 (1) if the hon. member means the pro- First aid, inclusion in teachers' course,. 2282 vision of proper classrooms to replace Area adjacent to Parliament House, temporary accommodation in use at the details, ownership and future use ...2282 present moment such as hired halls, cloak 'State rental homes, effect of pension rooms, staff rooms, etc., and for which Increases on pensioners' rents ...2282 replacement no financial allocation has Railways, (a) closure of Bridge-t. book- been made in the current financial year, ing office ...... 2282 the answers would be-- (b) inspection of sleepers at mill ...2282 (a) Prlmary-ElO.250. North-West grazing, survey of potenti- (b) Secondary-Nil. alities ...... 2282 Weights and measures, alternative This does not take into account the ad- arrangements re scales for countr ditional rooms necessary to accommodate traders .. .. 2283.. the increased enrolment expected in Feb- Native welfare, departmental visits to ruary, 1958-4,150 in primary schools and Warburton mission ...... 2283 1,160 in secondary schools. Nor does it Katanaing snack bar, alternative site .2283 include the replacement of some very old Uniform building by-laws, completion of and out-moded rooms considered unsuit- committee's deliberations .. .. 2284 able. If these needs are included, the Papers : State Housing Commission, appoint- funds necessary, over and above the ment of senior officers, tabling flies .. 12284 amount already allocated in the financial Bills : Government Railways Act Amend- year would be- ment, ir...... 2284 (a) Primary-461,140. Roman Catholic Vicariate of the Kim- berleys Property, Xr...... 2284 (b) Secondary-3.7,500. Interpretation Act Amendment (No. 2), This does not take into account any Council's amendments ... .2304 possible reforms such as reducing the size Juries, Council's amendments .... 2304 of classes or raising the permissible leav- Metropolitan (Perth) Passenger Trans- ing age. Nor does it include septic tank port Trust, to inquire by joint select installations, playground improvements, committee, Council's message ...2304 teachers' quarters and other ancillaries. Hire-Puchase Agreements, Corn. 2305 ,Constitution Acts Amendment, 2r- 2310 (c) It is not possible to consider this Electoral Districts Act Amendment, 2r. 2316 division in terms of classrooms, but it is anticipated that the expansion of technical education facilities and the conversion of The SPEAKER took the Chair at 4.30 former high schools for technical education purposes will Involve p.m., and read prayers. an expenditure of £1,750,000. QUESTIONS. (2) (a) A few months. EDUCATION. (b) A few months. (a) Overtaking Classroom Shtortage, etc. (c) Two to three years. (3) (a) There are sufficient teachers Mr. COURT asked the Minister for Edu- available to staff the schools cation: under present rules for staffing, (1) If funds were available, how much and there will be in 1958 and would be required- 1959. Beyond that, it is not (a) to overtake the whole primary possible to estimate; but it is classroom shortage including ap- expected that the rate of re- propriate equipment; cruitment will keep pace with (b) to overtake high school classroom - the increased enrolments. shortage including appropriate The anticipated annual in- equipment; creases from 19511 onward re- (Ce) to overtake technical education quire approximately- deficiencies in buildings and -110 extra teachers for prim- equipment? ary schools; [16 October, 1957.) 228128

90 extra, teachers for second- The MINISTER replied: ary schools;, and (1) There is no charge of drunken 20 extra teachers for techni- driving; but with respect to driving under cal schools. the influence of liquor or drugs, there has (b) Primary- been an increase. £108,000 approximately. (2) The records do not separate adults and persons under the age of 21 years. Secondary- Persons convicted in the metropolitan area £105,550 approximately. were 129. Figures for the country are not Technical- available. £26,000 approximately. (3) Persons convicted numbered 228. (b) Moora State School, Accommodation, (4) No. etc. (5) Answered by No. (4). Mr. ACKLAND asked the Minister for Education: ROAD RESERVES. (1) Is it the intention to make the Statutory Authority to Destroy Trees. Moora, State school a junior high school Mr. W. A. MLANNING asked the Minister as from the commencement of the 1958 for Works: school year? (1) What authorities or departments (2) If so- have the right to destroy trees within road (a) Is It the intention of the depart- reserves beside either main roads or those ment to provide the extra school under the control of road boards, and what rooms so urgently needed before statute or regulation autiborises such de- the 1958 school year? struction? (b) If not, when will the additional (2) Who has power to Prevent unneces- classrooms be provided? sary destruction by such authorities or (3) As the Moora, school is in two parts, departments? situated more than a quarter-of-a-mile The MINISTER replied: apart, each with its separate grounds, is it considered that the head master has any (1) Most State Government instru- chance of efficiently supervising the work mentalities and local authorities are em- and conduct of his school? Powered under their respective statutes to remove trees growing on road reserves-. The MINISTER replied: where such trees obstruct the Installatfoni (1) It is the intention of the department or construction of their respective works., to make Moora State school a junior high Commonwealth Government departments; have similar powers under Commonwealth school as from the beginning of 1958. statute. (2) (a) No: finances will rnot permit. (2) With State Government Instru- (b) It is hoped during the financial mentalities, the Minister in charge of each year 1958-59. department has authority to prevent un- (3) Yes. necessary destruction of trees. Local authorities can, at their discretion, remove TRAFFIC. trees from road reserves, except in areas which are State forests, when the permis- Drunken Driving Charges. sion of the Conservator of Forests must Mr. CROMMEIJN asked the Minister first he obtained. for Transport: (1) Is the incidence of drunken driving MAIN ROADS DEPARTMENT. increasing? Work on Assisted Roads. (2) How many charges of drunken Mr. W. A. MANNING asked the Mints'2 driving were laid from the 1st July, 1956, for Works: to the 31st December, 1956, against- (1) Is it a fact that road work on (a) adults: assisted roads Previously done by country (b) persons under 21 years of age? road boards is now being undertaken by (3) How many charges were laid for the Main Roads Department in somee the same offence for the period from the cases? 1st January, 1957, to the 30th June, 1957, (2) If so, what would be the reasonV against- The MINISTER replied: (a) adults; (b) persons under 21 years Of age? (1) There has been no variation in the Policy of the Main Roads Department of (4) Is it the intention of the Govern- carrying out works with departmental ment to make blood tests compulsory for organisations assisted by local authorities charges of drunken driving? as and when required. (5) If so, when? (2) Answered by No. (1), [ASSEMBLY.]

FIRST AID. The MINISTER replied: Inclusion in Teachers' Course. (1) Yes; rents will be affected as the Mr. EVANS asked the Minister for commission is bound by the requirements Education: of the formula in the Commonwealth-State Housing Agreement, 1946, which sets out (1) Does he not consider that the train- how ing in first aid and ambulance work should the economic rent and rebates are 'be a compulsory part of the training course determined. of school teachers? (2) (a) Aged couple with no other oc- cupants in home, £1 increased (2) Will he give consideration to the to £1 3s. per week. 'above inclusion and the establishment of iSt. John Ambulance competitions for (b) Aged pensioner, sole occupant. -teachers, similar to those enjoyed by rail- 8s. per week increased to 'way workers? 8s. 6d. per week. The MINISTER replied: RAILWAYS. (1) Training in first aid is already a (aw closure of Brid ge-St. Booking Office. fcompulsory part of the course at teachers' colleges, Mr. JAMIESON asked the Minister rep- (2) It is not considered that training to resenting the Minister for Railways: ,enter for -competition work should be part (1) What necessitated the closing of tof the first aid course for teachers. the Bridge-st. booking office at the Perth railway station? AREA ADJACENT TO PARLIAMENT (2) What Provision has been made for 'HOUSE. the convenience of passengers normally Details, Ownership and Future Use. securing tickets at this office? Hon. D. BRAND asked the Minister re- (3) (a) Has there been a recent f all- presenting the Minister for Local Govern- off in ticket sales at this office? ment: (b) If so, will he supply relevant (1) what are the future plans for the figures? area bounded by Hay-st., Harvest Terrafie. The MINISTER FOR TRANSFORT Havelock-st. and Parliament Place? replied: .12) How many properties In this area (1) As an economy measure the book- -now -belong to the State or State instru- ing office is closed during portion of the day. (3) Is it intended that the area now held (2) When the booking office is closed, a by Hale School will be used in relation to ticket porter is on duty at the barrier to the planning of the area referred to in the issue chits -t intending passengers. -previous question? (3) (a) No. 'The MINISTER replied: (b) Answered by (a). (1) It was Proposed in the metropolitan 'region plan for future Government offices. (b) inspection of Sleepers at Mil. 'It is included in the metropolitan region Mr. HEARMAN (without notice) asked interim development order No. 1 as an area the Minister ~proposed for public purposes. No final de- for Forests: vcision on this proposal has yet been made. Some weeks ago I asked if it would be possible to arrange for sleepers produced (2) one -property in Parliament Place at mills for the Railway Department to be -acquired by W.A. Transport Board; one passed by the Forests Department inspec- in Hay-st. owned by Princess Margaret tors at the mill site. The Minister said -Hospital: and one in Hay-st. leased by the he would look into the matter. Has he Police Traffic Branch. yet made a decision as to whether the (3) This was the proposal in the metro- convenience of sawmillers will be met in politan region plan. It is now receiving this direction? active consideration. The MINISTER replied: STATE RENTAL HOMES. I have received a report in connection Effect of Pension Increases on with the matter and if I can locate it, I Pensioners' Rents. will convey the informiation to the hon. member. Mr. HALL asked the Minister for Hous- ing: NORTH-WEST GRAZING. (1) Will he advise if the increase in the Survey of Potentialities. pension rate will cause increased rents to pensioners occupying State rental homes? Mr. COURT asked the Minister for (2) If the answer to No. (1) is "Yes," Agriculture: 'what will the amount of increase be to With reference to his answers given on married couples occupying State rental the 8th August, 1957, in respect of the homes and what will be the increase to survey of 26,000 square miles of grazing single -pensioners? country in the Ivlekatharra-Wiluna area, (116 October, 1957.1 228328 what progress has been made with the Mr. K. A. Hall-supply and -survey and what approximate time-table transport officer (Head Office). does he expect will be followed both for Also accompanied by Dr. F. E. the preliminary and main research work? Heymanson of Perth Chest The MINISTER replied: Clinic. The preliminary survey has been com- Arrived the 14th October, 1950. -pleted. It took approximately four weeks Departed the 18th October, 1950. and was carried out in September. Actual (c) Mr. F, W. 0. Anderson-Acting commencement date has not yet been Deputy C omm i ss ion er of determined, but it is expected that the of Native Welfare, main party will spend several months in the field during the winter of 1958 and Mr. B. A. McLarty-acting dis- complete the report by the end of the year. trict officer, Central District Mr. J, B. Redfern-investigatior, WEIGHTS AND MEASURES. officer (Head Office). Alternative Arrangements re Scales for Mrs. D. R. Bulford-acting wel- Country Traders. fare and public relations of- ficer. Mr. HEARMAN asked the minister for Arrived the 2nd November, 1952. Police: Departed the 6th November, What provision or dispensation is made 1951. to enable trades people in the country, who have been ordered by the police to send (d) Mr. B. A. McLarty-distritt their weighing appliances to Perth for officer, Central District. adjustment, to carry on their business Mr. A. 0. Day-assistant district during the time their appliances are away officer, Eastern Goldfields sub- from their shops? district. The MINISTER replied: Also accompanied by Mr. 0. F. Thornbury-Superintendent of The Police Department is well aware of Native Education, Education the difficulties experienced by country Department; and Dr. Grigoroff storekeepers in having repairs effected to of Public Health Department. their weighing apparatus, and affords a Arrived the 14th March, 1955. reasonable time to the owners of such to Departed the 16th March, 1955. have the same repaired before taking further action to enforce the provisions of Ce) Mr. A. 0. Day-assistant district the Act. Reputable scale repairing firms officer, Eastern Goldfields sub- frequently loan scales to country store- district. keepers. Mr. J. J. Harma n-assistant dis- trict officer, Eastern Goldfields NATIVE WELFARE. sub-district. Departmental Visits to Warburton Mission. Arrived the 19th March, 1956. Departed the 21st March, 1956. .Mr. GRAYDEN asked the Minister for Native Welfare: (3) (a) Departmental truck: (1) On how many occasions in the ten (bi) charter aircraft: -years prior to February, 1957, did officers (c) mission truck: from the Native Welfare Department visit (d) charter aircraft; the Warburton mission? (e) departmental Land-Rover. (2) Who were the officers concerned on each visit and on what dates, respectively, KATANNING SNACK BAR. did they arrive and depart from the Alternative Site. mission? (3) What was the mode of travel in each Hon. A. F. WATTS (without notice) instance? asked the Minister representing the Minister for Railways: The MINISTER replied: (1) is it correct that the Railway (1) Five. Department proposes to lease for the pur- (2) (a) Mr. A. J. Donegan-superin- pose of the erection of a "snack bar," a tendent. Cosmo Newbery portion of the railway reserve at Katari- Native ration department. fling in close proximity to the statue of Mr. J. 14. Hisley-acting in- the late Hon. F. H. Piesse, C.M.G., a spector of natives. former Minister for Railways? Arrived the 21st September, (2) If so, is the Minister aware that 1947. such statue was erected by public subscrip- tion and in honour of the leading pioneer Departed the 22nd September, of the Katanning district and the sug- 1947. gested erection is regarded by many people (bi) Mr. S. 0. Middleton-Commis- as being too close to the statue and liable sioner of Native Welfare. to lead to Its desecration? [ASSEMBLY.]

(3) Will the Minister take steps to the calling of applications for the posi- ensure that another site is found for the tion of Manager, State Housing Com- "snack bar"? mission, and the appointment of Mr. A. D. Hyniam thereto to be laid upon The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT re- the Table of the House. plied: (1> Yes. I am forced to move this motion because (2) No. in recent weeks I have been endeavouring to obtain from the Minister reasons for the (3) The nearest part of the proposed rejection of the recommendation of the site is approximately 50ft. from the statue Public Service Commissioner, which was and is being excised from an area of land leased to the Katanning Road Board. laid on the Table of the House in accord- which has signified its agreement to the ance with the Act, and the change in status proposal in writing. In these circum- of the chief administrative officer of the stances, it is not intended to find another State Housing Commission, and finally site. the appointment of one A. D. Hynam to the position of manager, although he is a UNIFORM BUILDING BY-LAWS. man who, as I shall endeavour to prove, has no qualifications for the position. Completion of Committee's Deliberations. The answers that I have been receiving Mr, COURT (without notice) asked the over a period have been not only mislead- Minister representing the Minister for ing but also, I would say without fear of Local Government: contradiction, in some instances not quite Does he anticipate that the committee the truth. It is necessary, in order to work examining uniform building by-laws will up to the reason for this motion, to trace have finished its deliberations in time for back the events that led to the change in the motion on the notice paper to be dealt status of this appointment to the State with by the 13th November so that Par- Housing Commission. it all arises from liament will know how far the Government the retirement of Mr. Telfer who was proposes to go in connection with the Under Secretary of the State Housing regulations? Commission since the 1st October, 1954. The MIMSTER FOR WORKS replied: In passing, I might add that it was the I expect that that will be the position. present Minister who, in August, 1954, de- but I have no precise information on the cided to raise the status of the chief ad- question. I shall ask the Minister con- ministrative officer at the Housing Com- trolling the department about the matter mission from that of an ordinary and supply the Information on the point secretary sitting of the House. to that of an Under Secretary. The appi- at the next cations for the position of Under Secre- tary, State Housing Commission, were first BILLI-GOVERNMENT RAILWAYS called on the 10th May of this year, clos- ACT AMENDMENT. ing on the 25th. The applications-how Introduced by the Minister for Trans- many of them I do not know-were re- port and read a first time., ceived by the Public Service Commissioner and in his wisdom he decided to appoint BILL-ROMAN CATHIOLIC VICARIATE Mr. Hopkinson. He is a gentleman well OF THE KIMBERLEYS PROPERTY. known to many members of Parliament and a man of extremely wide administra- Read a third time and transmitted to tive experience. He is one who prior to his the Council. departure to England to become secretary to the Agent General, was a senior officer PAPERS-STATE HOUSING of the Treasury Department in this State. COMMSSION. He served for some years in England under Appointment of Senior Officers, Tabling two Agents General and, after approxi- Files. mately six years, returned to this State when he was appointed chief administra- MR, WILD (Dale) [4.451: 1 move- tive officer of the Department of Agricul- That all departmental papers deal- ture. ing with the calling of applications for the position of Under Secretary, State In my opinion, it would be very difficult Housing Commission, and the rejec- to find an officer in the same grading with tion of the recommendation of the the wide administrative knowledge Pos- Public Service Commissioner to ap- sessed by Mr. Hopkinson. Not only had he point the Chief Administrative Officer, gained a wide knowledge of the workings Department of Agriculture, Mr. W. of the Treasury Department whilst em- Hopkinson thereto; all departmental ployed by it as a senior officer, but he has Papers relating to the decision to re- also gained wide experience as chief ad- duce the status of the position of ad- ministrative officer of the Department of ministrative head of the State Hous- Agriculture, which is one of the senior de- ing Commission from Under Secretary partments of the State. Further, whilst to Manager; all papers dealing with he WA~S in Engfland I do not think one L16 October. 1957.] 228528 could gain any better experience than to Now let us have a look at the second be secretary to two Agents General and portion of this document. It reads-- come into contact with people in all walks It Is considered there should be a of life. reallocation of the duties of this posi- tion and that a Close association with In this position, at a great distance from the activities of the State Housing the Government in this State, and as chief Commission would lead to greater adviser to the Agent General, be would be efficiency than the appointment of an called upon to make decisions of some officer from outside the department. moment. Yet we find that, in accordance with the Act, the Government refused to When that information was given to me, accept the services of Mr. Hopkinson and, I thought it only fair that I should find out also in accordance with the provisions of whether all the remaining senior positions the Act, the document which I now have in Government departments in Western in my hand was laid on the Table of the Australia had been filled by men who had House. The relevant minute reads as fol- been working within the department be- lows:.- cause it was felt that they should have a close association with the department in Public Service Act, 1904-1956. question. Statement of Reasons for Not Ap- proving a Recommendation of the So yesterday, in answer to a question that I asked the Premier, I was informed Public Service Commissioner. that of all the senior postings that we have on the '7th August, 1957, the recom- in this State only one in recent months mendation of the Public Service Com- has been filled by an officer who has had missioner for the promotion of Mr. previous service within the department. W, Hopkinson to the position of The one I refer to is the Conservator of Under Secretary, State Housing Com- Forests who, some years ago, prior to be- mission, was not approved by the coming general manager of the Wundowle Lieutenant-Governor in Executive charcoal iron industry was an officer of Council. the Forests Department. For instance, as Under Secretary of the Public Works The following statement of reasons Department we have Mr. R. J. Bond who is made in accordance with Section 38 previously was Under Secretary of the of the Public Service Act: State Housing Commission. Immediately prior to his present appointment Mr. Bond It is considered there should be a was Under Secretary, Water Supply reallocation of the duties of this Department. Mr. Green, who is the Under position and that a close association Secretary, Crown Law Department, was with the activities of the State Hous- previously an officer in the Premier's ing Commission would lead to Department. So one could go on. As I greater efficiency than the appoint- have said, there is not one officer, with the ment of an officer from outside the exception of Mr. Harris-who was appoint- department. ed Conservator of Forests two years ago-- who had prior experience in the depart- Let us have a look at that. Here we ment to which he was appointed as under have the Minister himself, in 1954, deter- mining that the position of senior adminis- secretary. trative officer of the State Housing Com- Mr. Lawrence: Are you inferring that mission was so important that it should they are inefficient? be raised to the status of Under Secretary. Mr. WILD: No, I am merely pointing out Over the years, and particularly since that that it was possible to move these men time, a record number of houses has been from one department to another because built by the State Housing Commission for they are administrative officers and are in which I give the Minister full marks. It that classification in the Public Service. is interesting to note that in the latest annual report issued by the State Housing Mr. Lawrence: Who put Mr. Harris in Commission, which report has been laid his position? upon the Table of the House, it was re- Mr' WILD: The hon. member's own vealed that it had a capital expenditure of Minister. Fresh applications for the posi- £9,7163,00. tion of manager of the State Housinig Commission were called for on the 6th That is a fairly tidy sum, and during September and closed on the 21st Septemn- that same year 3,696 houses were built by ber. In accordance with the answer given the State Housing Commission. Also, the to me by the Minister there were seven total number of employees under the -applicants jurisdiction of the commission who worked for the position and Mr. A. D. both inside and outside of the building in Hyn am, who at that time was the building Plain-st., was 362. So I think it can be superintendent at the State Housing Com- said fairly that the position of chief mission, was appointed to filt the position administrative officer of that commission of manager. is a pretty important one and without I say right here and now that that was doubt it calls for a man with some wide the man who was sought the first time and administrative experience. because he could not be appointed then [ASSEMBLY.)

the classification was merely altered so he did not have the training, should be that Mr. Hynaim would be the only man appointed to the position of building super- who could be appointed to the Position. intendent of the State Housing Commis- From the Minister I tried to ascertain sion, and, as is intended, appointed as what experience and qualifications were manager of that big organisation? possessed by Mr. Hynam to justify his The Minister for Housing: appointment, firstly, as building superin- You would tendent. make a good sanitary contractor. Mr. Lawrence: Who was the Minister Mr. WILD: I know all about the Min- then? ister's comments. He would be well down in the mire for some of the things that Mr. WILD: The present Minister for he has done. Housing appointed Mr. Hynamn as building The Minister for superintendent to the State Housing Com- Housing: You prove mission. I was interested to know what it. technical qualifications this man has to Mr. WILD: In reply to questions that hold down a job such as this. It is quite I asked the Minister, in an endeavour to interesting to discover that there is not probe the background of this man, I was one scintilla of evidence to show that he given a fair sort of story which made it has any knowledge of building. Yet this appear to the average man in the street is the man who is now In control of a that that officer was a pretty knowledg- department with a capital expenditure of able person in the building industry. nearly £10,000,000 with 300-odd employees When I asked- and building nearly 4,000 houses per What special qualifications did Mr. annum. A. D. Hynam have to justify his being His record shows that when he first went appointed building superintendent of out to work he was an apprentice boiler- the State Housing Commission in 1954? maker and was employed at the Midland I was told in reply- Junction Workshops from 1915 to 1936, when he became a factories inspector with Considerable technical knowledge, the Department of Labour. In 1941 he initiative, ability to overcome diffi- was appointed factories inspector, factories culties, and personal qualities neces- branch, Department of Labour, and in 1945 sary to command the confidence of he was made liaison officer for the re- building contractors, building trades- absorption of severely war-disabled Gov- men, and manufacturers and suppliers ernment employees, general division. In of building materials. 1946 he became material production officer. Then in answer to a further question I Workers' Homes Board, State Housing was told- Commission, and from 1948 to 1950 he was Mr. Hynam does not hold a master building material production officer. De- builder's certificate, but was a qualified partment of Industrial Development. In tradesman in structural engineering, a 1950, he became technical officer, State qualified health inspector-which re- Housing Commission. quires a knowledge of building con- During the three years that I was at the struction-and qualified in sanitary State Housing Commission-whilst I am science as applied to public buildings. not saying anything personal against this Further on I was told, in answer to man-all Mr. Hynam did as technical offi- another question I asked- cer-and why they called him technical officer. I do not know-was to be respon- Ile qualified at the Western Austra- sible for tying up the loose ends in regard lian Universtiy for the Diploma of to the shortage of material. If there was Public Administration, and is a mem- a shortage of bricks, he would be sent out ber of the Royal Institute of Public to the brickworks to find out the reason, Administration. or he would be sent to see Mr. New at Mon. L. Thorn: All theory. the Midland brickworks: if there was a Mr. WILD: In fact, It is worse than be- shortage of flooring in respect of one of ing all theory. There is no such thing as the contractors working in the country, a diploma of Public administration. It he would be sent to Manjimup. or to is very unfortunate that the Minister for Messrs. Bunning Bros. to find out the Housing should have selected this par- reason. ticular course, because I did it myself. It In 1954 the present Government saw fit is a one-year course in Arts or Economics to appoint this officer as building super- at the university. All that the student intendent. Members should ponder for a got after passing the examination at the moment and ask themselves this Question: end of the year was a certificate stating What qualifications should a person pos- that he had satisfied the examiners that sess in order to become the building super- he had Passed the first year of that par- intendent of an organisation such as this? ticular course. There is no such thing as Does anybody sincerely think that a per- a diploma of public administration. son with a background like that and who, Mr. Lawrence: Have you not got a dip- like me, was unable to draw a rough loma to misrepresent the people of your r'ce'-h cz + -nd cf a nrtchbox because electorate? 116 October, 1957.] 228728

Mr. WILD: All this goes to show that This jockeying to get Mr. Hynarn into the position was, without doubt, ready that position is completely unfair to all made for this officer. I am going to sug- members of the State Housing Commis- gest the reason why no one was selected sion, when one takes into consideration for the position of under secretary in the all the officers in that instrunentality who first place was because the Government possess technical or professional back- wanted to place Mr. Hynam in the posi- grounds, and who will have to take orders tion, who, as I said, has been promoted from Mr. Hynarn. Not one scintilla of bit by bit from the bottom to the top, not evidence can be adduced to show that he that I do not give him full marks for hav- knows anything about building adtninis- ing achieved such promotion. But an tration, yet he has been appointed over officer has to have a more solid background the heads of professional and technical before he can expect to become the man- officers. ager and chief administrative officer of There are also building Inspectors--men an organisation like the State Housing who must be in possession of a master Commission. builder's certificate-who will have to take instructions from an officer who What I am going to say is hypothetical, knows very little about the job at all and I amr suggesting that if the papers Because that officer is, or is not, a friend were laid on the Table of the House. we of the Minister, we find that he has been would have a fair idea. When the original elevated from the general division into applications were called for the position the administrative division-a step wvith- of under secretary, if Mr. Hynam had been out precedent in the State-and appointed the successful applicant there would not to the senior post in the State Housing have been a down-grading of the position from under secretary to manager and chief Commission. administration officer. Without doubt, he Mr. Lawrence: Are you prepared to would have become the under secretary say who are your Informants? of the State 'Housing Commission, but if Mr. WILD: In answer to that interjec- that did not eventuate, under the Public tion, I can say that I do not have to ask Service Act the Government would have some member of the Housing Commission to lay on the Table of the House the to meet me on the Esplanade to find out reasons why the position had not been any information. I can get my info rma- given to the person selected by the Public Lion through questions in this House. Service Commissioner. It was quite pos- Mr. Lawrence: I shall meet you on the sible, with the many applications for this Esplanade if you want that. position, that Mr. Hynam. was eighth or tenth on the list, which meant when the Hon. L. Thorn: You would never get papers were laid on the Table of the back if you did. House, the reasons for not accepting the Mr. WILD: I consider that this ap- second, third or fourth recommendation pointment should not see the light of day. of the Public Service Commissioner would The only opportunity that we as members have to be given. of this House have to ventilate this matter, is to get the papers laid on the The only way in which to overcome the Table. In answer to a question I was impasse was to decide that the position told by the Minister that I could see the of under secretary of the State Housing papers in his office. Members are aware Commission was no longer required, even that if that is done, they will be per- though only three short years ago the mitted to see the papers but they will Minister said it was a very important not be permitted to quote in the House post. In order to get Mr. Hynamn into what they see. the position, the Government decided to bring about a reallocation of duties, and The manner in which this position has to create a position of manager and chief been jockeyed, in my view, stinks com- administrative officer. It was freely pletely. It is a move that certainly should rumoured all over the place weeks before see the light of day. The only way in the appointment was made that Mr. which that can be done is to move for Hynam was to be the new under secre- the papers to be laid on the Table of the tary of the State Housing Commission. 'House. -Of course, when the plan nmisfired, some THE MKINISTER FOR HOUSING (Hon, other way had to be found to bring about H. E. Graham-East Perth) (5.103: I the appointment that the Government touch first of all upon the concluding wanted to make. The only way in which remarks of the member for Dale. I say that could be done was to take the step that, in nay view, the only thing that that I have mentioned, which, whilst it stinks in this connection is the member may not be factual, is very nearly without for Dale himself, and his distorted mind precedent in the Public Service, that is, that gives birth to this sort of attitude. bringing an officer from the general Point o~f Order. division of the Public Service and placing Mr. Wild: On a point of order, Mr. him into a senior post in the administra- Speaker, I would ask the Minister to tive division. with draw that remark. 2288 2288ASSEMBLY.)

The Speaker: If the hon. member takes the facts that should be presented to exception to the remark, I ask the Min- senior officers, Ministers or the Govern- ister to withdraw it. ment, as the case may be? So I say it is Members: Withdraw it! not a statement of fact; it is completely The Minister for Housing: I hope to false for the member for Dale to say be able to prove that statement. that he was forced to move this reso- lution. Mr. Bovell: You have been requested to withdraw the remark. He has had an opportunity, since Tues- day of last week, to look at all the The Speaker: Order! papers related to this matter, but he was The Minister for Housing: The hon. not interested in them. This, to him, was member has been asked to keep order. a heaven-sent opportunity to indulge in Mr. Wild: On a point of order, I have smear and in sludge. The more exag- requested the Minister to withdraw that gerated his terms, the greater will be statement. the possibility of receiving publicity in The Speaker: I might say that I did not the Press tomorrow, however ill-founded hear the statement. If the hon. member may be his assertions, based an the type takes it as a personal affront, then the of mind which he possesses. Minister should withdraw the statement. Mr. Wild: You ought to talk of publi- The Minister for Housing: In defer- city. ence to your request, Mr. Speaker, I1with- Mr. Court: Do You not think that a draw the statement, but I shall adduce member has some duty in these matters, certain facts from which members in this if he honestly believes a situation should House, irrespective of political com- be cleared up? plexion, will be able to draw their own The MINISTER FOR. HOUSING: I conclusions. like the qualification that "if he honestly The Speaker:. The Minister may pro- believes." Surely he would have looked ceed. at the papers to see if there was some- thing wrong with the Proposition, if he Debate Resumed. honestly believed something was wrong. The MINISTE1R FOR. HOUSING: I Mr. Court; The minister knows there make the statement that the member for are many disabilities in looking at papers Dale, in moving this resolution, does not in the Minister's office. want the papers to be laid on the Table The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: Not of the House. If he were interested and in the Minister's office but in the Public desired to see what had been done, he Service Commissioners' office. What are would have accepted the invitation ex- the disabilities? tended to him to call at the office of the Public Service Commissioner. If hie Mr. Court: If there is any leakage from had done that and found anything of- these files after the Papers have been fensive to him, or any improper thing seen you are suspect, no matter how in- done by the Government or anybody else, nocent you might be. then he would have been in a far more The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: To be commanding position, could have spoken perfectly frank, I would have no objec- with some more authority, and could tion-there were certainly no strings at- have mnade out some case for the papers tached to the answer I gave to a question to be laid on the Table. last week-to the member for Dale using Mr. Wild: Why were they not laid on anything at all he saw on these papers. the Table? You have something to hide: Mr. Wild: You would not be long in that is why. taking me to task if I did. The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: Any Mr. Court: He would not be entitled other member but the member for Dale, ethically to use the papers in would know or should know that it is this instance. highly improper for personal papers to be The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: I laid on the Table of the House. There said no condition whatsoever. The only are all sorts of personal and intimate qualification, and hence the reason for details appearing on personal files 'which not laying the papers on the Table of do not deserve to be bandied about in the House, was that all the papers should the public Press or anywhere else. not be made available to the public; not In certain cases it could happen that because there is necessarily anything responsible departmental officers, indeed which should not be made public, but it the Public Service Commissioner him- is unethical in the extreme as--I repeat self, pass very strong personal criticism -these are personal papers. against certain applicants for a position. There are confidential matters appear- Is it right that that criticism should be ing on them, and might I say this, that made public, or is it desired that we should having some idea of the attitude of mind encourage the state of affairs where the of the member for Dale, I went out of recommending officers or the Public Ser- my way one evening after the first mur- vice Commissioner are afraid to make a inurings from that quarter and ap- proper assessment, or afraid to set out proached the Leader of the opposition. [16 October, 1957.) 2289

I pointed out to him certain very intimate was a junior officer until he became and serious matters that had occurred friendly with the member for Dale: then in connection with a certain officer and he was shot up. There is something to in the interests of this officer, his f eel- which I should make reference, although ings and his family in order not to en- I do it with reluctance and out of re- deavour to make political capital out of spect for the Person concerned. I made that, I gave the Leader of the Opposition it my business to obtain certain papers the reasons. I am certain he respected and I found there was a note of just a my wishes-not to protect myself or the few lines from a person who was charged Government, but that officer and Is with a certain responsibility. It was a f amily. minute to his Cabinet and in that minute Is it right that details in con- he suggested that a certain person-I might nection with the matter to which I had as well read it. It is as follows:- made Just a general allusion should be It is recommended that approval be available to the public. Is there any de- given to the Minister controlling the cency left in life? The administration of State Saw Mills- the State Housing Commission and its which was himself- operations are exceedingly important. to set up. within that department, an Mr. Wild: You apparently do not seem organisation to buy any timber from to think so. timber millers for resale. The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: Per- haps I had better proceed in another way. There is something that looks like "G. P. Over the Past 41 Years they have become Wild" at the end of it. That went to important. For the three years preced- Cabinet and there is a note, "Cabinet ing that they should have been important, approves. Term of appointment subject but were not. It is all very well for the to the Minister." member for Dale to say that a man like No applications were called; no recom- Mr. Hynam does not know the first thing mendations were made by heads of depart- about the job. There was a person who ments and no recommendation was made sat in the chair of the Minister for Hous- by the Public Service Commissioner. ing for three years and after he was Cabinet made the decision at the instiga- bundled out, he admitted in this Chamn- tion- of the member for Dale, This person ber that he did not know he had autho- was apptointed, not to the staff of the State rity over the State Housing Commission. Saw Mills: not to the Plublic Service as a He, Mr. Speaker, is the person now set- temporary or Permanent officer. He was ting himself up as an authority as to the given a. Position, and I have a document type of administration. here which parades under the name of an Mr. Wild: I did not tell the Housing agreement, giving this person-guarantee- Commission to build large blocks of flats, Ing him-three years employment at a like Wandana Flats. certain salary and under certain conditions. The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: The This was an important decision in the hon. member did not tell the Housing mind of the then Minister, and the person Commission anything, and it was not my was appointed on the 29th May. 1950. for intention to tell with the regard to the a period of three years. Yet, in September member for Dale, either. He certainly of that Year-four months later-he was was not doing his job as Minister for Placed in charge of a section of the State Housing. Housing Commission. No applications were Mr. Wild: That is your view. called and there were no rights of appeal or anything else. On the 28th February, The SPEAKER: Order! 1952, again without applications being The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: How called and less than three years from the did Mr. Hynam. become technical officer, time he was appointed to this important a title which he was not entitled to Position which lasted for only four months. use? He was appointed by the member he was appointed to the permanent staff for Dale to that Position! of the State Housing Commission. Mr. Wild: How does the Minister know How did all this happen? Frankly, I of junior appointments like that? have never heard of such a procedure. All I know is-and I say this in advance-that The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: Now this Person Is a most capable we have an admission of a Minister sign- officer and Ing papers for Executive Council and not one for whom I have the highest respect. knowing what was contained in them and Mr. Wild: It was a good selection then. disagreeing violently with them. There is The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: Not an administrator for you! this procedure. Mr. Wild: With all these Papers for Mr. Wild: Is he still there? junior officers, would you be cognisant of them? Why have you a chief adminis- The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: Yes. trative officer or a chairman? Immediately prior to his being picked up The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: What out of the blue and appointed to a position comes under the heading of "junior offi- not appearing in any department but cer" in regard to this appointment? He subject to a personal agreement between 2290 (ASSEMBLY.] the Minister and himself, he had been the that those associated with this problem organiser of the Liberal Party of Western had a great responsibility to see , that Australia. everything which should be done was, in Mr. Wild: Was he appointed over some- fact, done. body's head? A report from the secretary, State Hous- ing Commission, goes on to say- Mr. Lapham: Political appointments! For this reason, and for the un- The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: It was doubted ability and experience which an entirely new position created without Mr. Hynamn can bring to material going through the usual channels in con- production, I urge the retention of nection with Government employees. his services. Mr. Wild: He is a good officer. That was in May, 1947. The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: Of Mr. May: A couple of months after that course, he is; and the member for Dale Government took over. knows Perfectly well that the person, the The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: In subject of his outburst this afternoon-Mr. June, 1947, Mr. Reid, the Under Treasurer. Hynam-is a good officer indeed; and there who-if I remember rightly-was chair- are many documents to establish that. I main of the State Housing Commission. say quite frankly that I was amazed, par- made this observation- of my ticularly within the first 12 months The Proposal to transfer Mr. administration of the State Housing Com- Hynam to the Arbitration Court is mission, to find whenever there was a of prob- giving the State Housing Commission problem-irrespective of the type a great deal of concern. I discussed lem, or which section of people or was one the Proposal with the Hon. Premier organisation it affected-there and he agrees that it is desirable that man to whom the task was entrusted to he was Mr. Hynam should remain with the unravel the issue; and invariably State Housing Commission and you successful in that regard. may wish to talk the matter over Mr. Wild: That doesn't come into the with him. question. So at that time, just over 10 years ago, The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: The that was the estimation of the then chair- member for Dale had no hesitation in pro- man of the State Housing Commission moting him to the position of technical and the Premier of the State as to the officer, but either his memory is short, or capabilities of Mr. Hynam in respect of he was completely out of touch with what housing and building materials. At the was going on in his department. When same time he was wanted by the president we come to bandying about any word that of the Arbitration Court but, in deference pertains to odours. I wonder what members to the wishes of the then Government, Mr. now think of the virtuous member for Hynamn was not made available to the Dale who stands in righteous indignation Arbitration Court. and, on hunches and scandals, tries to make It is interesting to reflect that not very out a case to blacken a man who has been long afterwards a gentleman-a personal selected for the position in question. acquaintance of mine-named Mr. Mr. Bovell: What did you do in 1947 in Schnaars was appointed to the position of this House? conciliation commissioner. Mr. Schnaars is today, and has been for quite a period, The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: That This receiving a salary in excess of that which is removed from this debate entirely. Mr. Hynam will receive upon assuming person, Mr. Hynam, was picked out by a a cer- his duties as manager of the State Hous- Liberal Government to undertake ing Commission. Mr. Schnaars is on a tain important responsibility in connec- on. more salary of £3,020 and Mr. Hynam will take tion with building and, later over his position as manager of the State directly with the State Housing Commis- Housing Commission at a salary of £2,702. sion itself. I found, amongst other things, that Mr. President Dunphy-we are now So it is obvious that in at least several a most versatile gentleman in directions Mr. Hynarn received general ap- discussing promotion the person of Mr. Hynam-desired that probation, and he was denied there should be a person engaged on at the bands of the McLarty-Watts Gov- work for the Arbitra- ernment, for which I do not necessarily special conciliation after a tion Court. and it was the services of Mr. criticise it, but now apparently Hynam he required. further 10 years' experience with the Housing Commission and having suc- This caused some consternation in the ceeded in the various duties allotted to State Housing Commission, administered him, he somehow becomes unworthy of by a Liberal Minister, and even the then the position. the picture, who in- Premier came into I mentioned the state of mind of the dicated at a conference that he regarded Government's No. 1 member for Dale when he was moving housing as his and thought he had found priority. How in the name of fortune he the motion for Dale there. I know a point to drive home to the Government put the member know it is exceptional-there :not. The then Premier made it clear because-I (18 October, 1957.] 2291 was no dagger-how appropriate I-in the The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: He Public Service List against Mr. Hynam's found himself so busy with his office name to indicate that he had served over- work that apart from one half day each seas in the armed forces of this country. month when he accomuoanies the Min- ister on an official inspection of the ac- Mr. Bovell: What do you mean when tivities in the metropolitan area, he was _you say their is no dagger for people who compelled to use his Sundays and his fought for this country? Are you reflect- holidays to undertake some sort of a ing on them? cursory inspection of what was going on; The SPEAKER: Order!I and, as is known there is not a great The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: The deal going on on Sundays and holidays. member for Vasse displays his ignorance. Mr. Wild: Why did you turn over in If he knows what a Public Service List bed all of a sudden when you did not get is- the man you wanted? Mr. novell: You said a dagger was quite The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: I appropriate against a returned service- think the member for Dale is still on his man. honeymoon or something. HOUSING: The Mr. Wild: You 'turned over in bed The MINISTER FOR very rapidly when you did not get the hon. me~mber will find that in the Public man you wanted. Service List a dagger is placed against the names of those officers who are ex- The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: Let servicemen. us show some commonsense and be seri- ous about the position. The previous Mr. novell: And you said "how appro- Government appointed as head of the priate." What do You mean by that ref- department a Person who had had no erence? contact or association with housing. The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: I1 Mr. Wild: He did a very good job. You think the member for Vasse is sitting a will not deny that. little too close to the member for Dale. My reference in that connection was to The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: Of the member for Dale. course he did. Nobody has criticised him as far as I am aware. Mr. Brownlje was Mr. Wild: How is a member of Par- taken from the Rural & Industries liament to know if the Public Service flank and placed in the Housing List is right? Commission, as its full-time adminis- The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: That trative head. I am not criticising might be a Pertinent question, but it was that gentleman; I have the greatest being asked not for the edification of the respect for him. It might surprise hon. member, but in the hope that he the member for Dale to know that would equip himself with another argu- within the last week or two-since the ment, another drop of poison. This man, announcement-Mr. Brownhle rang me as a matter of fact, went overseas, was at my office to congratulate the Gov- there for a couple of years. returned to ernment and myself upon the decision Australia and was still under age when to appoint Mr. Hynam, and also on the he arrived back on his native soil. appointment of Mr. McKenzie as admini- strative officer. Mr. Wild: Good on him! I1 am glad to hear it. Mr'. Wild: More likely the latter but not the former. The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: I The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: Both. am glad that the member for Dale was Prior to the decision being made, 11 spent not able to make a point in that con- several hours in consultation with Mr. nection. Brownlie because of his previous asso- The Minister for Lands: He made an ciation with the State Housing Commis- awful blue in this matter; there is no sion. I also had long talks with the ex- doubt about it! Public Service Commissioner and with the Acting Public Service Commissioner. The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: It is Unfortunately, Mr. Smith was away not the first time. The position of chief from his office, ill. I had a telephone call officer of the State Housing Commission from the chairman of the housing advis- is an exceedingly important one. I could ory panel-he has authorised me to say not expect the member for Dale to know, this-a man who has been in that position but anyone who is familiar with the for 10 years; and he was placed there State Housing Commission will realise by an Opposition Government. He too, that it is impossible for the man who is congratulated everybody concerned, in charge of the paper work to pay at- through me, on the reorganisation and tention to the field work; and in the field on the selection of Mr. Rynam for this there there is approximately £70,000,000 task. The chairman of the housing ad- worth of assets owned by the commission. visory panel is no less a person than the Mr. Wild: What was Mr. Telfer doing President of the Chamber of Manufac- for the three years? tures of Western Australia. 2292 [ASSEMBLY.)

I am wondering who is concerned just described has been the spirit and out- about this. Whrat did happen? Mr. look of many of the State Housing Com- Telfer's time as Under Secretary for mission officers, and this explains why un- Housing was running out and automati- believable results were achieved, particu- cally applications were called to fill the larly in the year 1955. position. They were examined, a recomn- Because of this, and because of the pres- mendation was made and submitted to sure to which they were subjected by many me to be passed on to the Government. thousands of people pressing for homes, At that stage I became a little more than and the pressure to which they were sub- ordinarily interested. I had conferences jected by members of Parliament, which, with people in high places--the chair- of course, is their right and province, man of the State Housing Commission, these officers had had a pretty raw and the Under Secretary for the State Hous- tough time over a number of years. I do ing Commission, the Acting Public Ser- not mind admitting this to anybody: and vice Commissioner, and so on. it is, of course, to be found in slightly The general feeling, upon an inspec- different words, in documents laid on the tion of the applications, was that none Table of the House by the Premier. of the applicants who were considered, I felt, and I still feel that if those people had all of the requirements of the posi- could perform these miracles in house- tion. It was also found that two appli- building and could surpass any other State cants--Mr. Hynam and Mr. McKenzie, in the Commonwealth so that we reached because of certain provisions in the the stage where the member for Dale Public Service Act - technicalities if undertook to eat his hat if certain things members like-were debarred from con- were done-he knew they could not be sideration. I pointed out to the Premier done, but within 12 months they were that there was something fundamentally achieved-there was something wrong with wrong if there was a set-up which pre- the situation if they could not even be vented consideration-Dot appointment to considered for the higher positions in the the position-being given to the claims department. So there was a conference of these individuals. between the Acting Public Service Com- Mr. Wild: You admit that at that stage missioner and myself, His general dis- did want that man. position was to agree that whilst there were you some very worthy officers, it could be The MI3NISTER FOR HOUSING; I ad- briefly said that not one of those who had mit nothing of the sort. lodged applications gave the complete Mr. Wild: You said he was not in it answer. and so you went to the Premier. He therefore suggested that a person who was familiar with the work should The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: I keep his eye on the outside activities think it is a shocking thing that through where, I repeat, £70,000,000 of public money a technicality these two officers of the is reposed, and at any given moment State Rousing Commission, whose names millions of pounds worth of work is I have mentioned, should be debarred from proceeding. The Acting Public Ser- consideration. I also knew from MY four vice Commissioner suggested that that years' association with the State Hous- should be the position, and he knew, ing Commission that there are not one or as everyone else did, that it was physi- two, but many officers who work with their cally impossible for the Under Secre- eyes not directed towards the clock. They tary, Mr. Telfer, to attend to the out- will undertake any sort of duties that are side work in addition to his office duties not even theirs, late at night, on days and that therefore an administrative that are holidays, and all the rest of it. officer should be appointed to undertake To give an example, I well remember those responsibilities. the ceremony when the Premier handed But as the work was principally physical, over the keys of the 20,000th house out it was thought that there should be a at Brentwood. .I suppose there never was manager, which was a title the Acting Pub- a day when it rained so much. Because lic Service Commissioner decided upon, of that, a few things went wrong at Man- and not myself-nothing unusual was done ning. Certain of the senior officers-- in connection with this matter by the Gov- McKenzie and Richardson: and some ernment-and so it was decided that this members will know them personally-were would be the best arrangement, and ap- in their best suits, having attended this plications were called for the positions. function, but they received urgent calls in Under this set-up, the officers to whom connection with what was going on. They I have made reference were not barred there and then took off their shoes and from consideration. The chairman of the socks and coats, rolled up their pants and State Housing Commission, Mr. Glare, the waded around to see what they could do. Principal Architect, and the Under Secret- Within a few minutes almost, they were ary for Housing went through all applica- transferring families because of the flood- tions for both positions and they were in ing that had taken place. What they did favour of Mr. Hynam and Mr. McKenzie was not Part of their duties; and the time respectively. They submitted their recom- was far beyond 5 o'clock. What I have mendations to the Acting Public Service [16 October, 1957.1 2293

Commissioner who, in turn, recommended Therefore it is of Prime consideration to a to the Minister for Housing that they Minister, above all others, to ensure that ,should be appointed. The Minister for the best and most capable man offering is Housing submitted the matter to Cabinet appointed to any particular position. That and from Cabinet the papers went to is precisely what was done on this Executive Council. occasion. Is there anything irregular in any of Mr. Court: I still cannot follow from the those steps? I would say that anybody, argument that you advance why the Gov- .however bitter, who says that Mr. Hynamn ernment allowed the under secretary does not know building activities, and all applications to go as far as they did, if pertaining to them, (1) does not know they ultimately came to the conclusion Mr. Hynam. and (2) does not know any- that they wanted a manager instead of an thing about building activities. It is simply under secretary. not true. That man enjoys not only the The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: Until .affection but also the regard of all sections such time as applications are received, of the building industry including the nobody knows the field that is offering. master builders, the builders' guild and the There might have been a miracle man, like building tradesmen. He has been closely the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. associated with, and enjoys the confidence among the applicants for the position. of, the producers of building materialso of Mr. Court: Pair go! the suppliers of building materials-the merchants--and he is also familiar with The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: The all the operations that go on in the field. answer could not be yes or no until appli- He is a man with a flexible mind, receptive cations had closed. to new ideas, new schemes and new Mr. Court: But you imply from that that .methods.- had Mr. Hynamn been No. 1, or the only appicant for that position, you would Mr. Ross Hutchinson: Would You say have appointed him under secretary and that hiis promotion was due to merit and not bothered about the manager's position. not to seniority? The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: The The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: Yes. position then was, as indicated previously, but I do not know that he was so Junior that he could not have been appointed in the scheme of things. I will turn up the even if he had been the only applicant. papers. Mr. Court: I cannot follow that from Mr. May: Why worry? He was the best the proposition you put forward. man you could have got. Mr. Johnson: An intelligent person The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: Out could. of seven applicants for the position, only two were senior to him. I do not want it The SPEAKER: Order! to be thought that somebody picked up an The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: Section office boy from somewhere and put him in 35 of the Public Service Act says that this type of job. appointments to administrative positions -and there is a definition in the Act of Mr. Court: Which position was that? administrative positions--must come from Under secretary or manager? certain sections, and for some reason or The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: other, what is known as the general section Manager. For the position of under secre- is omitted. Therefore, however qualified tary there were 11 applicants of whom only a person in the general division might be, three were senior to him; and I am he could not have been considered by the measuring his seniority on the basis of Public Service Commissioner or by the salary. For the benefit of the member for Government. Dale, the person who ran Mr. Hynam ex- Mr. Wild: You are only proving what I ceedingly close for the position was one said. You got the man you wanted finally. who has been in the Public Service for only two years. I put it to members: Who The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: We of all concerned, has the greatest interest are poles apart. in seeing that the best man is appointed; Mr. Wild: We are. in seeing that the best results are achieved? The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: So If a Minister is recommending a friend of long as the hon. member retains the his, and he is only a second rater, so attitude of mind he has--and which in- what? cidentally. I thought he had cured himself Positions in the Public Service are of-we will continue to remain many miles reasonably secure and permanent: but if apart. He finds all sorts of scandals such there is a second best, or somebody worse as Wandana and the appointment of the in charge of a department and something Conservator of Forests, and so on. He was breaks down, who is at the receiving end Parading then as the man to see that of any kicks? The Minister, and through justice was done. And yet the records him, the Government. It could cost the show, from his own papers, that he was Government its life; and for the Govern- stabbing the man in the back while he was ment to lose its life, would mean that pretending to Support and have some individual members would lose their seats. sympathy for him in this Chamber- 2294 2204[ASSEMBLY.)

Mr. Wild: What did you do finally? Chamber of Manufactures of Western Aus- Didn't you put him out? tralia, are all dishonest. There is only one person who knows all about it, and The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: Yes, he is the member for Dale. but I do not came here like a. hypocrite trying to protect his position. Mr. Wild: You have still not explained to us why, as regards Mr. Rynain, who was Point Noe. (3) for the position of manager, you of Order. overrode the two others to secure the ap- Mr. Wild: Mr Speaker, I ask for the pointment. withdrawal of the word "hypocrite". I think it is offensive. The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: I did not override anybody, The Speaker: The member for Dale considers the word "hypocrite" offensive Mr. Wild: You said that he was No. (3) and I ask the Minister to withdraw it. on the list, The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: The Minister for Housing: A reference In to Hansard will show that I did not call seniority gauged on salary. I have al- the hon. member a hypocrite. I merely ready told the hon. member that said that I did not come here as a hypo- everybody who had anything whatever crite. Therefore, I do not think there is to do with it was completely of one any need for a withdrawal. mind-they were unanimous in con- nection with it. So we find that Mr. Johnson: The cap fitted, so he there is no substance in the motion. or ini wore it. the remarks of the member for Dale. There is none In the motion because it Debate Resumed. seeks the tabling of certain papers, papers which on Tuesday of last week I offered The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: SO to make available to the hon. member in we see that all the way along the line, the office of the Public Service Commis- the member for Dale, who knew nothing sioner, without any strings attached. As whatever about the position, when he I stated in opening, the member for Dale concluded his term of office knew probably did not want the papers, neither did be a great deal less than when he started. expect that personal and confidential He has revealed that, and it is in the papers would be laid on the Table of the permanent records of Parliament. He House. He saw a glorious opportunity to proved it by his own words when he said do a little smearing-I am not too sure that things had been freely rumoured whether it was of Mr. Hynam. or of the around the streets. Yet he comes up here, Government through me. to a place like this, and indicts the Gov'- erment for having done the wrong thing, So I have no hesitation whatever in without having a clue as to what he did. asking the H-ouse to reject unceremoniously That was quite evident from the clear the motion submitted by the member for example I gave him. He pours poisoned Dale, submitted, I emphasise, by a person words upon Mr. Hynam because he was who broke all of the rules in the book appointed the technical officer-appointed in order to oblige a Petty organiser of his by the member for Dale and his Govern- own p)olitical party: signing him up for ment. three years for a job when he was not recommended by anybody. He talks about Mr. Wild: -That is not half as bad as political preferment and looking after appointing a man as building superinten- friends! He of all people in this Chamber dent and manager, without any knowledge. standing up indicting me and this Gov- ernment! Mr. rotter: It is only one step up. Mr. Wild: But You looked after the The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: I man Kennedy when you appointed him the think the member for Dale hopes that if Unfair Trading Commissioner. he keeps on saying that long enough, he The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: I do will convince somebody in addition to him- not know what self. It is a shocking thing to say. The Mr. Kennedy has to do member for Dale. under parliamentary with it; and I do not know what informa- privilege, is actually saying that the lion the member for Dale seeks. Principal Architect, Mr. Clare, is dis- Mr. Wild: No, and you might not like honest; that the Under Secretary for Hlous- me to say too much about it. ing is dishonest; that the Under Sec- The MINISTER FOR ROUSING:- I go retary to the Premier's Department, further; I issue a challenge to the member Mr. Doig, is dishonest; and, of course, for Dale to say what he likes. It is all all my colleagues are dishonest. He right for an individual to go around in- says that this person has no quali- sinuating things, but let him stand up fications, no knowledge and no ability, like a man and make and that all the people who commended a definite statement. him, the Acting Plublic Service Commis- Mr. Wild: Like you did for 31 hours when sioner, the ex-chairman of the Housing you said all those things about the officers Commission, and the president of the cf the State Housing Commission and [16 October, 195'7.] 22952 caused an inquiry to be held by a Royal Mr. Wild: Will you answer the question Commissioner, and then did not have the I asked you about refusing to give evidence guts to give evidence. to support all the charges you.. made against The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: And the officers of the State Housing Commis- so? sion? Did you refuse to give evidence? Hon. Sir Ross McLarty:. So what? The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: Most It is on record. The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: What certainly I did. does the ex-Leader of the Opposition want The SPEAKER: I do not think we are to know? discussing the question of evidence before Hon. Sir Ross MeLarty: Why don't you a Royal Commission which took place many years ago. The motion deals with the answer his question. appointment of Mr. Hynam to the position The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: He did of manager, State Housing Commission, not ask a question; he made an observation. and we should get back to it. Hon. Sir Ross MeLarty: He said you did not have the guts to give evidence before Tbe MINISTER FOR HOUSING: Not- the Royal Commissioner. withstanding your words, Mr. Speaker, we have been discussing other matters but, of The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: if he course, we should not have been doing so. made that statement, what the member The name of Mr. Hopkinson has been ban- for Dale says about me personally is like died about by the member for Dale. I water on a duck's back. There was no have not discussed the ma tter with him question appertaining to it. but I am assured by the Public Service Hon. Sir Ross MeLarty: It was true, Commissioner that Mr. Hopkinson is most wasn't it? concerned that his name should be so used, and he wishes to assure his principals The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: Surely that he has had nothing to do with this the member for Murray knows sufficient mistter at all. about his colleague to know how much credence he can give to anything emanating Mr. Wild: Who said he had? from that source. The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: The Hon. Sir Ross MeLarty: I know how inference has apparently been drawn. much credence I could give to a lot of your statements when you were over here. Mr. Wild: I have not seen the man for You should be the last member to talk 12 months. about smearing. The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: That Mr. May: This is a private fight. could be so. The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: I seem Mr. Wild: It is only the principle of the to be throwing out a lot of challenges. thing. but I would ask the member for Murray to cite one single case of where I smeared The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: I am anyone. merely stating that he wishes it to be known that he is in no way associated with this Hon. Sir Ross MeLarty:, What about the slimy business-the latter words being members of the State Housing Commis- mine. sion? Mr. Ross Hutchinson: I think it is natural The MINISTER FOR ROUSING: Where that the gentleman should dissociate him- did I smear any officer of the State Hous- self from it. ing Commission? The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: I am Hon. Sir Ross MeLarty: It was done is for it. under parliamentary privilege. wondering who Mr. Ross Hutchinson: Even if he were The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: There for it, he would be foolish to associate is no need to change ground. himself with it. Hon. Sir Ross MeLarty: I am not chang- The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: Of ing ground. course; just as the member for Dale has The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: I say been exceedingly foolish in barging in flow, by way of affirmation, that the mem- without knowing anything about it. I do ber for Murray cannot give one single case not want any further interruption because of where I have smeared and named an I wish to conclude! Applications were called officer of the Public Service. and examined in the normal manner. Cer- tain applicants could not be considered. Hon. Sir Ross McLarty: I know, but you A review was made of those left and it would not stand up to your charges. was felt that none of them was a complete The MINISTER FOR HOUSING: That answer for the job. Accordingly, papers is an entirely different matter, and I notice dealing with this matter were laid on the that the member for Murray is anxious to Table of the House. Recommendations get away from the first charge he made were made by the Acting Public Service against me. Commissioner, fresh applications were [ASSEMBLY.] called for the two new posts and the nor- MER. COURT (Nedlands) [6.61: This mal procedure was adopted in connection motion is divided approximately into two, with the selection, through to the various parts which, in turn, are subdivided. The stages of the appointment of those two first part deals with the calling of appli- officers. cations for the position of under secretary For the edification of the member for to the State Housing Commission, and the Dale, and others, there are further changes second deals with the decision to reduce contemplated in the State Housing Comn- the status of the position of admninistra- mission and these will result in a saving tive head of the State Housing Comm is- that is estimated to be at least £3,500 a sion from under secretary to manager. As year. It is felt, by those in a position to I said, those two matters are subdivided know-and at this stage I speak to those further; in the first Place into the rejec- other than the member for Dale-that this tion of the recommendation of the Public will give a more efficient type of organisa- Service Commissioner to appoint the tion than exists at the present time, having administrative officer of the Department regard particularly to the changed activi- of Agriculture-a Mr. Hopkinson: and in ties of the State Housing Commission. Its the second case the appointment of a Mr. operations, and manner of operation, are Hynam. entirely different today from what they The Minister seems to pin his faith to were several years ago. The final word I the fact that -the mover of the motion have to say is that there is nothing new schould have examined these papers in the or novel in a person not being under sec- Minister's office, or in the office of the retary as top administrator in respect of Public Service Commissioner. All of us in all the activities he covers. this Chamber know that if one examines After all, I can recall the day when I papers under those conditions, one is mor- was on Christian name terms with the ally, if not legally, bound not to use that Under Secretary for Housing; I worked information. It is only in the most un- side by side with him in the Forests De- usual circumstances that people avail partinent. How he qualified for the chief themselves of that invitation. Very often administrative post I know not, but he has on these fles there are matters of a con- turned out a first-rate officer. When the fidential nature and if we do see them, and change was made and it was decided that it is known that we have seen them, and the chief administrative officer was to be there happen to be leakages, no matter fall-time chairman-a man who had no how innocent one might be one immedi- assciaion with housing-he showed ately becomes suspect. plenty of determination and battled through most difficuult days. Accordingly, members of Parliament are reluctant to examine files in departmental In the case of the manager, there is a offices, either with the Minister or with person who has been given a difficult job one of his officers. As far as I know, this and is familiar with the requirements and Assembly has a very good record for has an intimate knowledge of the manner observing the ethics in such matters. I in which the Housing Commission works. have never known in the time I have been The Minister for Housing must be assured here of any accusation having been lev- that when he requires certain information, elled against a member of a breach of con- it will be supplied; he must feel without fidence following on the examination of any doubt or hestitation that he is receiv- files; and Heaven forbid that that state ing authoritative Information. That is why of affairs should change! It rather in- 1, for one-and is this a crime?-did not trigued me that the Minister implied from look particularly favourably at the Prospect his remarks that he would have no objec- of somebody coming from outside to be tion to the member for Dale seeing the my adviser without having been associated Papers under the conditions he was in- with the State Housing Commission. I vited to see them and using the informa- felt I would probably be adviser to him for tion. a couple of years or so. Mr. Ross Hutchinson. There is nothing whatever to hide in Ini the House. connection with this whole matter. There Mr. COURT: Not only in the House, but has been a great deal of imagination ema- presumably in any other way. I cannot nating from not a very high level. I have for one moment imagine the member for official papers with me and they can be Dale seeing those papers and then coming scanned, but I have a very definite objec- to this House and making specific state- tion-as I think any responsible member ments based on that information in sup- would have-to personal applications and port of his motion, I had the experience personal details, and perhaps most inti1- recently in moving for the tabling of cer- mate criticisms of officers, being laid on tain papers and I had to do so in the most the Table of the House-in other words, circumspect manner, because I knew what being made available to the general public. was on the file, and it would have been That is all. Therefore there is no warrant wrong of me to give any indication as to for members with a sense of proportion- what was on that file because, had the no matter who they be-to support the House decided not to table those papers. motion submitted by the member for Dale. I would have been in a fine old mess. (16 October. 1957.1 292297

The most intriguing part of the problem The Minister for Housing: I can assure is the fact that the Government, with you that it was not overlooked that he full knowledge of what it required in re- or other applicants might be eligible to spect of the head of this commission, saw apply. fit to allow the usual machinery to func- Mr. COURT: Am I to understand that tion in respect of applications for the the Minister's proposition rests on the position of under secretary. I could per- premise that it was decided to call ap- haps see some merit in the Mini~ter's plications for the post of under secretary, argument if the Government had decided State Housing Commission on the under- that, on the retirement of the present standing that if, after the applications head of that department, it wanted to were considered, applicants were regarded change the status of that office, and as of the right calibre and knowledge, the accordingly decided to call for a manager, most suitable one would get the job? or some person by another name, and had publicly said, "We are changing the Org- The Minister for Transport: Calibre and anisation of the State Housing Commis- knowledge of the job. sion and with that in view we no longer Mr. COURtT: I cannot see how the desire to appoint an under secretary; in Government could have expected a person his place we will appoint another officer of sufficient seniority to get the job in those or several officers." It could be that the circumstances if the Government made Government might want to expand its top the last qualification necessary, namely, administration', on the other hand, it that he should have experience and know- might want to reduce it. ledge of his work. It would be the same Had the Government done that and if applications were called for the posi- gone straight on with calling nominations tion of under secretary, Water Supply De- from persons falling in that classification, partmnent, or any other department; we its case would have been much stronger would expect one of the senior men in the than it is today. But what happened? Public Service to be the logical contender The usual machinery operated and, after for the job. consideration of the applicants, the Public Service Commissioner nominated to the This has happened every year or two Government Mr. Hopkinson to fill the post when there has been a change in under of under secretary. Mr. Hopkinson at secretaries; a man goes from one depart- that time occupied the position of chief ment to another and accepts the top job administrative officer, Department of Aigri- -nob because he has had great experience culture. in the Public Works, or the Water Supply Department, or in the Treasury, but be- It is at that point of time that things cause he is a trained administrator at that seem to have gone off the rails, and the particular level. It is accepted by Govern- Government then came to light with an- ments of all colours that such men have other proposition. The Government a degree of interchangeability at that level, abandoned that proposal. Mr. Hopkinson and normally the man who is the senior was the recommended applicant and from officer, if he has the right background, gets all the Minister has said be was not con- sidered to be an applicant with the neces- the job. sary knowledge to fill the position envis- It is not always a question of straight- aged by the State Housing Commission. I out ability. It is one of the difficulties am intrigued as to why the Government in the Public Service to distinguish the went through that machinery. No doubt man who is the more able from the one it had the knowledge then that Mr. who is the more Senior. We acknowledge Hynam, because of the section quoted by these difficulties; they confront every the Minister, would not be eligible for Government, but on this occasion, with a appointment even if he were the senior full knowledge of the circumstances, the applicant and measured up to all the other Government allowed this appointment to conditions that the Public Service Com- go through the normal channels of calling missioner. considered necessary. for applications for the position of under The Minister for Housing: I think that secretary. proves that the Government had no Sitting suspended from 6.15 to 7.30 p.m. ulterior motive; it waited till it saw what was offering. Mr. COURT: The members of the Gov- MY. COURT: I think the reverse ap- ernment front bench have flattered me plies. by taking flight, judging by the empti- The Minister for Housing: That ness af the ministerial seats. I did not is not think r was that convincing before the logical. tea suspension. Mr. COURT: I feel that somewhere lalong the line it was overlooked that this Hon. L. Thorn: They are outside dis- man would not be eligible for the posi- cussing the next line of attack. tion, and when that came to light and Mr. COURT: I had nearly concluded it was discovered he was eligible for the what I had to say when we went to tea. appointment, another procedure was fol- My main point surrounded the rather ex- lowed. traordinary situation of the Government [ASSEMBLY.] having gone through the process of seek- the Minister referred. The Minister him- ing an under secretary for the State Hous- self got very heated; and if anyone cast, ing Commission; and then, for reasons any innuendoes, it was he himself. He which have not been adequately explained became very worked up by the Minister, deciding to abandon that The Minister for Housing: Giving like idea and substitute a manager. for like. That brings me to the final point I Mr. COURT: I think that if it were want to emphasise. Insswitching from the a question of who threw the most mud, proposition of an under secretary for the the Minister would win 'the competition. State Housing Commission to the position of manager, there was a down-grading of The Minister for Housing: You are the top administrative position in the tremendously loyal to your colleague. commission. When I say down-grading, Mr. COURT: No. just expressing my I mean by way of salary; and that norm- views on the merits of the case. ally reflects the relative merits and seni- The Minister for Housing: And with a, ority of positions within the Government great broad smile all over your face, too. service. Mr. COURT: In conclusion, I want to The Minister for Housing: I think that say that the Minister is wrong in taking to be fair you must give marks for the exception to any member-whether it be two positions. In other words, the job has the member for Dale or any other-bring- been split. ing a matter of this nature before the House. No one brings such matters for- Mr. COURT: I understood from the Minister's speech that this man is re- ward because he likes doing so. sponsible for the overall management of The Minister for Housing: Much! the State Housing Commission. Mr. COURT: I repeat that no one brings these things to the Chamber because he The Minister for Housing: As a matter of high policy. likes doing it. The Minister for Housing: To consider Mr. COURT: He is still nevertheless the that there is something wrong because a senior man in the State Housing Com- document is called a diploma and not a mission outside the commissioners them- certificate, and to think that one has selves. found that lies or untruths have been The Minister for Housing: You could told is absurd. hardly have two equals looking after two Mr. COURT: I do not want to be side- aspects. One had to be senior. tracked by this red herring, which, was only a minor point in the argument Mr. COURT: Agreed. I would not have advanced. a bar of having two People of equal status in any form. Once that stage Is The Minister for Housing: But typical. reached, there Is chaos unless they are Mr. COURT: I have heard the Minister two extraordinarily adaptable People. really worked up-or appear to be-and This man is the senior officer in the com- wax eloquent over matters of much less mission outside of the actual commis- significance since I have been in this sioners themselves; and I find it hard to House. As a matter of fact, it is enter- follow the reasoning of the Minister, and taining to bear the Minister get worked he has not yet convinced me that there up over a point when really "going to was not some change of heart for some town"; and to hear the Minister accuse reason or other after the Government had the member for Dale of making too much called for nominations for the position of of this point is rather ironical. under secretary; did not get a suitable ap- The Minister for Housing: He charged plicant who was eligible; and decided to the Government with dishonesty. proceed on other lines and seek a man- ager so that it could obtain. somebody Mr. COURT:. I repeat that it is a maem- ber's right to bring these matters forward. directly associated with the State Hous- It is undesirable that matters involving ing Commission. personalities should come before the The Minister for Housing: For the House any more than is absolutely neces- reasons submitted to the House. sary, but this is a case which could not be submitted without mentioning person- Mr. COURT: I feel that the member for alities. The Minister referred to Mr. Dale was within his rights in bringing the Hopkinson. Nobody regrets more than I matter for debate in this House and in fact the fact tbt Mr. Hopklnson's name had bad a duty to do so. to be mentioned, but I think the Minister The Minister for Housing: But not cast- will agree that on both sides his name was referred to as little as possible. He is a. Ing the innuendoes he did. fine fellow, a man with a very good record Mr. COURT: it -is well-nigh impossible -both with regard to his war experience to bring forward a matter of this kind and with regard to his Government ser- without introducing personalities. I do vice: and I can imagine that this would not think he cast the innuendoes to which be most distasteful to him. 116 October, 1957.] 229929

The Minister for Housing: If you look be printed may be inspected at the at the motion you will see that there was office of the House at any time by no occasion to use his name or the posi- members and, unless otherwise ordered tion he now occupies. That reference by the Speaker, by other persons, and could have been omitted without detract- copies thereof or extracts therefrom Iog from the motion in any way. may be made. Mr. COURT: I think the member for As I understand it, these are not papers Dale would have been criticised from the which could be ordered to be printed, if other side if, in fact, he had brought the that aspect of the matter comes into it motion forward and had not been specific at all; and quite obviously therefore, if on this point. I do not see how he could I am correct in my interpretation of the have brought the matter forward without matter-and I honestly believe I am-it mentioning names. would be competent for you, Sir, at the The Minister for Housing: All he needed request of the Minister, to direct not only to do was to mention the rejection of the that the one file, but all the files, if you Public Service Commissioner's recom- saw fit to do so, should be made avail- mendation. able in this House to members of this Mr. COURT: Even conceding that, I do House but not to other persons. So that not think too much damage was done to if you regarded it as necessary, the whole Mr. Hopkinson by the inclusion of his of the papers could be excluded from the name. It will be admitted by the Minister public gaze and made available to members that the matter was referred to very only. seldom by the mover of the motion and Surely that is not an unreasonable pro- himself. I can well imagine that it position! If the Minister did niot feel dis- would be very distateful to Mr. Hopkin- posed to amend the motion on the lines son; and it was not the intention of the 2 first suggested, surely it would have been mover or of myself to bring his name into possible to enable members of this House the discussion any more than was neces- within the precincts of the House to have sary. I support the motion. the papers made available-not to one member, tut to all members who might HON. A. F. WATTS (Stirling) 17.38]: be interested to concern themselves in the When this motion was first introduced matter. Because, as the debate has pro- I was not, to tell the truth, very interested ceeded-and in listening mainly to the in it. But as the debate has progressed, Minister himself-I have been mystified and particularly as a result of the Min- to some degree as to why the original ister's observations. I must confess that decision to call applications for a new I have felt obliged to say something about under secretary, following on a decision it. I am struck by the fact that the Min- to have an under secretary of the State ister, particularly in the concluding part Housing Commission-which decision was of his speech, said he had nothing what- made by the present Minister some three ever to hide; and yet is disinclined in those years ago-was not persisted in; or, alter- circumstances to follow the course of lay- natively, why-if there was going to be ing the papers on the Table of the House. a change in the management or head I make the concession to him that in officers of the Housing Commission-that the earlier part of his remarks he did draw that was not considered to be desirable the attention of members to the fact that before applicants were called for an under one file contained reference to an indi- secretary when the retirement of the pre- vidual apparently unconnected with the sent Under Secretary became evident. actual subject matter of this debate, which if made public might cause that person It seems to me that that leads to the unnecessarily and without justification conclusion that the Government was at some unhappiness. least most undecided in this matter. Be- fore three years ago we had a chairman of As there is more than one file involved the Housing Commission and if I remember in this matter, and the Minister has noth- rlightly the last chairman was Mr. Brownlie. ing to hide, as he Indicated, there are two courses open to him. One is to amend Associated with him was a secretary and the motion so that the particular file which I believe the last secretary was Mr. Telfer. might cause that personal unhappiness, That system had operated for a consider- and which is substantially unconnected able number of years. To the best of my with this case, could be withdrawn from recollection, It had operated since the the motion. formation of the Housing Commission in replacement of the former Workers' Homes Alternatively, as I understand the posi- tion, he could approach you, Mr. Speaker. Board. under Standing Orders to direct that this There was a chairman of the commis- particular paper or file be not made avail- sioners, who was actually the head of the able to the public but only to members of Housing Commission and the Civil Service this House. I refer to Standing Order No. staff. There was a secretary of the Hous- 229 which reads as follows:- ing Commission and before Mr. Telfer we All papers and documents laid upon had Mr. Bond, the present Under Secretary the Table of the House should be con- for Works and those two gentlemen, as I sidered public. Papers not ordered to understood the situation, divided between 2300 2300ASSEMBLY.]

them the administrative duties. Three see, there was no necessity to make any years ago or thereabouts it was decided to alteration to the system that existed prior put an end to that system. Nobody on to 1954. Other than a change of name we this side of the House offered any objection are back where we were. that I am aware of. The Minister for Housing: No. It was apparently decided to make the Housing Commission like other Govern- Hon. A. F. WATTS: Or approximately ment departments in that respect, and, in where we were. my view, the magnitude of the task and activities of the commission justified such The Minister for Housing: No, for the a change, because it was obvious that it ft tim there is a man with some tech- had become a department virtually equally nical knowledge at the head of the depart- as important as the Public Works Depart- ment, ment, and so it was decided to have an Hon. A. F. WATTS: But there is no under secretary. Mr. Telfer, who had been reason why a man with such knowledge secretary, I understand, of the commission should not have been appointed to the became the first Under Secretary of the previous position. I am not disputing 'that State Housing Commission and, as far as it is probably highly desirable that there I know, he carried out those duties success- should be a technical person in charge of fully and satisfactorily until the time of the Housing Commission. But why could his retirement drew nigh. he not he chairman of the commission and Applications were then called for another have a secretary instead of being manager under secretary to take his place when he with aLchief administrative officer? -ret-ired. A recommendation was made by 'the Public Service Commissioner of some- The Minister for Housing: You should body that he considered suitable, but it read the Act. was not accepted by the Government. It Hon. A. F. WATTS: In the interim the is well within the competence of the Gov- Government decided on an under secretary, ernment not to accept such a recommenda- with no change of Minister, as I have said. tion although for the life of me I cannot All those things put together indicate, as appreciate, without seeing more of the I have said at the outset, an extraordinary ,matter, why a person like Mr. Hopkinson change of front with regard to the type of -should not have been. acceptable. administration that -the Government But I am prepared to concede that there wanted in the Housing Commission. I do may have been sound reasons for the Gov- not impute any improper motive to any- ernment's decision. However, in a matter body, but I would dearly love to know of importance such as this I believe we what brought it about. I think In a matter are entitled to know what the Govern- of such importance as this, members are ment's reasons were. We certainly do not entitled to see what it is all about, although know yet and the only way to form a I have no ambition to make the personal proper appreciation of the position is to affairs of anybody public. have access to the files. As I have said, As I have already said, I believe there the Government decided it did not want are ways and means by which that can 'Mr. Hopkinson and it took the course re- be avoided and the desire which I 'have. quired by statute under the Public Service and the legitimate desire which I think Act and laid the papers on the Table of many other members have, could be assist- the House. ed and subscribed to. So far as I am con- cerned, I suggest that the Minister should Had it called applications for another give consideration to the suggestions I under secretary or had it given acceptance have made, and which I hope are worth to another recommendation of the Public while, so as to compose the difficulty in Service Commissioner, if he was prepared which he finds himself and which I to some to make one from among the applicants. extent appreciate; but I think I am entitled I have no doubt that this debate would not to see these papers, in the circumstances, have taken place, but after this decision to in order to review the changes that have change from a chairman and secretary to taken place. If the Minister will do that, an under secretary, and after the lapse of this matter may be brought to a speedy a bare three years to change to another and amicable conclusion but, if not, I shall constitution, of manager and chief ad- have no alternative but to vote for the ministrative officer- motion. The Minister for Housing: That is be- coming like the Public Works Department, MR. MAY (Collie) C7.52]: 1 think it with a director of works and an under is regrettable that this subject is being ;secretary. -debated tonight and, knowing the person H-on. A. F. WATTS: Yes, but previously concerned, I am convinced that the debate -we had the chairman of the commission has not been justified. I am more than and the under secretary and as far as I surprised that the member for Dale should can see they were doing precisely the same have moved this motion. -in view of his as the manager and chief administrative knowledge of the department with which ,officer will do. Therefore, as far as I can the Individual concerned Is connected. [16 October. 1957.] 230130

When the McLarty-Watts Government However, continued pressure was put on took office in 1947 the man concerned in me and the member for Dale may recall this motion had been appointed to the that I mentioned it to him and told him Arbitration Court and it was well known that I was not prepared to bring the ques- at that time that Sir Ross McDonald, who tion up in this Chamber because I did not was then Minister for Housing, submitted think any member of the Public Service a request to the Government that the ser- should have his name dragged through this vices of Mr. flynam be retained in the House unless for some very good and im- State Housing Commission office because portant reason or for something detri- of his great knowledge of the housing mental to the service. As far as I am con- Position at that time. He had an overall cerned, the circumstances of the other knowledge of the situation which no other applicants do not matter: I am concerned officer then possessed and consequently only with the fact that this man's name Hynamn was retained by the commission to has been dragged through the Chamber his own detriment. and all sorts of things have been said in I would not have squealed at that, but connection with his case during the de- after two or three years when other officers bate. I do not think that should have been in the Housing Commission became more permitted. acquainted with the situation and could I cannot understand the action of the probably have taken his position, Hynam member for Dale in moving the motion and was still not allowed to go to the Arbitra- I am sure he could have obtained any in- tion Court and take up the senior office formation he requires by other methods. to which he had been appointed before For the life of me I cannot see why the the McLarty-Watts Government took over. file should be laid on the Table of the I think that is really the starting point of House. Not that there is Something to hide, this matter. Hynam lost his position with but I do not consider it is ethical. If an the Arbitration Court and from that time officer has not committed an act that is onwards, no attempt was made to honour detrimental to the Public Service or the the debt that was due to him in regard to State generally, I do not think it is fair the position to which he had been that his private life should be made public appointed, and he was kept back over the in this Chamber. years on a lower salary than he would have been receiving had he been allowed Hon. Sir Ross McLarty: Why is his pri- to go to the Arbitration Court. vate life being made public? All this information was available to the Mr. MAY: The hon. member knows as member for Dale. just as it was to me and well as I do that one thing leads to an- I believe that when he was Minister for other in this regard. All sorts of aspects Housing the member for Dale should have are introduced. However. I am not sug- seen that justice was done to Hynam, but gesting that there is anything wrong with no effort was made in that direction. As his private life, by any means. a matter of fact, officers were continually H-on. Sir Ross Mc~arty: I know nothing being appointed over Hynam's head in the Housing Commission for some unknown that is detrimental in his Private life. reason. Tt was not because he was not Mr. MAY: Nor do I. In fact, there is competent. Sir Ross McDonald admitted much that is to be commended. I do not how competent he was, and that must have think that there are many Sundays that been the case because otherwise he would pass without him and his wife attending have been allowed to go to the Arbitration some institution to do something for the Court. Had he been permitted to take up inmates. I am interested to know why this that appointment he would have been in particular individual was kept back in the the same position as Mr. Schnaars Is Public Service whilst the McLarty-Watts, today. Government was in office. I do not know, I repeat that over the Years this man but it may have been for political reasons. has been victimised for some ulterior Hon. Sir Ross MeLarty: I know it was: motive which the Minister for Housing not. under the McLarty-Watts Government might have had against him. There must Mr. MAY: The fact remains that he was; have been some reason for it, and I have never allowed to advance himself. The been trying to find out why Hynamn was member for Dale, who, at the time was, was so victimised. When the member for Minister for Housing, cannot deny that. Dale was Minister for Housing, pressure was brought to bear on me to bring up In Mr. court: r think the Minister said this House the reason why a certain man that he did advance. was appointed-a man who, it was dis- The Minister for Housing: He changedf covered, was the political organiser for the his title. member for Dale, but I refused to do it because I felt that the man concerned had Mr. MAY: The member for Dale said' been offered the position and had accepted he did not know, but, in my opinion, he- it and, in my view, that was the end of the took the necessary action to ensure that. matter. he could not advance. 2302 2302[ASSEMBLY.]

Mr. MAY: He might have changed his I do not know what actuated the Gov- title, but I am speaking of his status and ernment in not putting the usual mach- his remuneration. The title that a man car- inery into operation in refusing to ap- ries is not so important as the remunera- point the officer recommended by the tion that he receives for his services. This Pubic Service Commissioner. He is a particular individual has never spared person who has been in the Public Ser- himself in his efforts for the State Hous- vice for a number of years and he has ing Commission. What the Minister has given service in various departments. I said about him tonight is perfectly true. know, too, the feeling that is experienced Either outside or within his ordinary work- at various times by departmental officers ing hours, his services have always been who have probably performed a good at the command of the State Housing Com- job in many departments but who, as mission. His knowledge of the activities the member for Nedlands. has stated, miss of that commission is terrific. In accord- their chance of promotion as a result of ance with the agreement made between certain officers being transferred from the Anglo-Iranian Oil Co. and the Mc- one department to another. Larty-Watts Government, the State Hous- What the reason for that is I do not ing Commission was obliged to erect a know, but there always seem to be some specified number of houses at Medina white-haired boys who are elevated to within a certain time. Mr. Hlynam was these high positions in the Public Ser- the officer who was responsible for those vice and can create something of a hier- houses being erected within the time limit archy so to speak. What is more, they set. are promoted from one department to of the service another at extremely high salaries. I That is only one instance have worked with such men and I have that he has rendered to the State Housing also worked with men employed in pri- Commission. Now, after completing many vate industry. Therefore, I know the years of excellent service, we allow his capabilities of both types when employed name to be dragged in disrespect through in an administrative capacity. this Chamber. What is the reaction of the public? They will ask:, "Who is this man Some of the officers are quite capable Hynami? He is receiving a great deal of of filling these various positions and are adverse publicity." However, the publicity capable of being charged with the res- that he is receiving should not be adverse. ponsibilites entailed, but as the Min- I know Mr. Hynam extremely well and I ister has implied, under Section 35 of the Public Service Act, there could have am aware of the work that he has per- been quite aL number of applicants for formed for the State Housing Commission. this particular Position who could have I am Personally acquainted with what he been precluded from appointment. has done because he has achieved a great Therefore, the field from which men are deal for housing in Collie. to be drawn for these administrative I want to emphasise that I know what posts could have been from outside the he has done and the manner in which he commission. has performed his work. Regardless of Whilst I was working with this par- any individual who might have been an ticular department before its change of applicant for the position of officer in name, I knew of officers who used to charge of the State Housing Commission, work night after night and weekend I consider the Government has done the after weekend to perform their duties, right thing in appointing this man to that Also I have known of many officers who, position. after returning from country trips, have taken their files home to carry on their MR. POTTER (Sublaco) (8.4]: After work there. One can well Imagine, there- all is said and done the Government, fore, the feeling that Is engendered and the Minister in particular in this among officers of a department when instance, is charged with the administra- someone is appointed from outside to a tion of Government departments. It is position which the departmental officers on their heads and on ours as members felt they should rightly have. of Parliament if they do the wrong thing. Therefore, the Government and the However, on this occasion I do not think Minister concerned-I am not going to they have done the wrong thing. discuss the merits or demerits of any The member for Dale would, I think, particular officer, because I do not think have been better fortified if he had ex- that is our prerogative-has acted wisely amined the relevant papers before on this occa-sion. Sometimes letters or moving his motion in this House. He minutes are Placed on files that keep would then have had some substance on many officers down to a lower grade which to base his case. I know that there when perhaps they are quite competent is some reluctance to granting an ex- to be raised to a higher classification. amination of papers on a Government Therefore, whatever actuated the Gov- file. However, he could have made some ernment in creating the position of man- attempt to examine these papers and if ager of the State Housing Commission, It satisfied, there was nothing to prevent was, in my opinion, a wise move. Also, his moving that the papers be tabled from what I hear In various circles. I at some subsequent date. understand that the appointment of this 116 October, 1957.1330 2303

officer is a very popular choice. As a means to obtain a man to do this particu- result, I must support the Minister in lar Job. I wanted an officer to organise his attitude in regard to the tabling the procurement of extremely hard-to-get of these files. timber for the State Housing Commission. However, that is a very different case _MRt. WILD (Dale-in reply) 18.12) 1lam from a man who started to work as a afraid the Minister did not tell me or the boiler-maker and then years later sud- members of this House a great deal as to denly finds himself appointed as officer- the reason why he turned over in bed one in-charge of one of the largest building night, as I stated in my particular refer- organisationis in Western Australia. There ence concerning him. As usual, he wanted is not a tittle of parallel between the two to commence slurring me but I have been cases. here long enough to allow such comments Mention was also made by the Minister to act like water on a duck's back and, of the request of the president of the like him. I do not take much notice of Arbitration Court, Mr. Justice Dunphy. for them. Mr. Hynam to sit on the bench of that The Minister for Housing referred to a court, but a person with undoubted k-now- man named Barry who, during the time ledge of industrial law, and with ten years' I was Minister for Housing, was an experience in the shops arid factories organiser of the Liberal Party and I was branch, does not make a good building instrumental in having him appointed to superintendent or manager of the State the State Housing Commission. At the Housing Commission. Every person Is time, timber and bricks, to say the least, best fitted in the niche for which he has were in shockingly short supply. In that ability and training. year we were, in the main, eight to nine Mr. May: Why did your Government months and sometimes 12 months in hold him back? arrears with flooring supplies and other dry timbers. So, in my wisdom, I looked Mr. WILD: We did not hold him back. around for a man who, in my view, could The Minister also said that Mr. A. J. organise the procurement for the State Reid who was chairman of the Workers' Housing Commission, through the State Homes Board, expressed the same opinion. trading concerns, these necessary building I have nothing personal against the officer supplies. in question. He was first appointed as the officer in charge of liaison but the' In consequence, I had a long discussion name was later altered. He has know- with Mr. Taylor, the then Public Service ledge of that job, has a good personality Commissioner, on the question of whether and is a good contact man. That, how- I could bring a man in from outside to ever, does not make him a man suitable perform this task. I had looked around to be in control of a big organisation. A the people with whom I came in contact person has to be really big in his outlook and I told Mr. Taylor that I was desirous to be able to control an organisation that of appointing Mr. Barry to the position I turns over £10,000,000 a year. had in mind. The Minister for Housing: Take Mr. Mr. May: What experience did he have?) Telfer, for instance. He was only a clerk Mr. WILD: He had a lot of organising In the Forests Department when I worked ability. He had been an organiser for the ilt. Liberal Party and I had been able to ob- Mr. WVILD: That makes no difference. serve his work. There is nothing to cavil at He rose from the administrative group. about that. In fact, this officer has proved At the time he was Under Secretary of to be one of the most efficient at the State the State Housing Commnission there was Housing Commission. If the Minister did a chairman- not think he was ai good man, he would The Minister for Houslnig: Who had not have elevated him after he became nothing to do with housing prior to be- Minister for Housing in 1950. coming chairman. The Minister for Housing: And in the Mr. WIL: That makes no difference. next few weeks, elevated him again. If there is a good manager in charge of Mr. WILD: Yes. So, apparently my the administration, he will be prepared to selection was not a bad one. I was seek- listen to the technical officers under him. ing a man for a special job and on the But in this case how can we expect the advice of the then Public Service Com- technical officers to take directions from missioner, who suggested that the only way a man who has risen in the manner I to get one was to try outside the service, have outined? that action was taken. As the Minister has cast a slur on me The Minister for Housing: But is it in this debate, I would like to make a not usual to contact the Public Service couple of observations on the remarks of Commissioner before taking such a step? Mr. Moseley, the Royal Commissioner in- quiring into housing, when referring to Mr. WILD: I have already told the the present Minister for Housing. I in- Minister that I discussed with Mr, Taylor, tend to quote his remarks when he re- the Public Service Commissioner, the best ferred to the slur cast against members 2304 2304ASSEMBLY.]

of the State Housing Commission by the looked at the position again they found present Minister in this House. Mr. that some of 'the applicants were not Moseley had this to say- eligible. I cannot understand senior From one point of view it should officers of the department-with full be a matter of satisfaction to the staff knowledge of the Minister calling for of the commission to realise that the applications for an under secretary, a post statements made as to their dis- that was created by him only three years honesty have come from one quarter before-not being in possession of the fact only. On the other hand, it is not that some of those officers were not pleasant to contemplate that allega- eligible. The position is that when the tions so damaging in their nature and person whom the Government desired to yet unsupported by even the flimsiest fill the position was not selected by the *of .evidence have been made by a Public Service Commissioner, then, and *member of the Legislature. It may only then, was it decided to alter the status well be, although I do not know, that of the position, and to call for applications but for the charges of bribery and for the position of manager. corruption made by Mr, Graham, Question Put and a division taken with MI.L.A., no Royal Commission would the following result:- have been constituted. However that may be, it remains a regrettable fact that no assistance has been given to Noes .. 22 me by Mr. Graham to enable me to investigate the truth or otherwise of Majority agal nst . '7 these charges. Aye! The SPEAKER: Order! I ask the hon. Mr. Ackland Mr. WV.Manning member to resume his seat. The motion Mr. Bovell Sir Rons MeLarcy before the Chamber does not deal with the Mr, Court Mr. Nalrier Mr. Crominelin Mr. Thorn Minister for Housing or Mr. Graham, or Mr. Grayden Mr. Watts what'happened at the Royal Commission. Mr. Hearruan M r. Wild I shall not permit the, hon. member to Mr. Hutchinson Mr. I. Manning continue reading from the report. If he Mr. Mann (Teller.) were to make one or two observations from NoSe the report that would be all right, but I Mr. Andrew Mr. Marshall Mr. Brady Mr. Moir shall not allow him to continue reading Mr. Evans Mr. Norton the report. The motion deals with the Mr. Gait y .Mr. O'Brien appointment of officers, the rejection of Mr. Graham Mr. Potter Mr. Hall Mrt. Rodoreda the officer named Hopkinson, and the Mr. Heal Air. Sewell appointment of an officer named Hynam. Mr. Hoar Air. Sleeman The report which is being read deals with Mr. Jamieson Mr. Tomns an inquiry which took place years ago in Mr. Johnson Mir. May Mr. Lapham (Telier.) connection with the Minister; that has Mr. Lawrence nothing to do with the motion. I shall not therefore allow the hon. member to proceed Question thus negatived. further with the report. BILLS (2)-RETURNED. Mr. WILD:, Might I suggest with defer- ence that neither was the question of Mr. 1, Interpretation Act Amendment (No. Barry's appointment related to the motion 2). yet you, Mr. Speaker, allowed the Minister 2, Juries. to go on with it. With amendments. The SPEAKER: X have given my ruling. The hon. member shall not proceed with BILL-MYETROPOLITAN (PERTH) reading the report of the Royal Commnis- PASSENGER TRANSPORT sion. In this instance, the motion deals with Mr. Hynam. and Mr. Hopkinson, and TRUST. the hon. member will have to confine him- To Inquire by Joint Select Committee-- self to it.- Council's Message. Mr. -WILD: Very well, Mr. Speaker. If Message from the Council received and you will not allow me to proceed and read read notifying that it had concurred in the condemnatory remarks made by the the Assembly's resolution that a joint Royal Commissioner against the Minister select committee of members of both when he made sweeping allegations against H-ouses be appointed to consider the the State Housing Commission, I shall bow Metropolitan (Perth) Passenger Transport to your ruling. Trust Bill; that it had appointed a select The Minister gave no reason at all for committee of four members to confer with the changed status of the position fromn the committee appointed by the Assembly: uinder secretary to manager. In his own and that it had given an instruction to its words-and Hansard will show them- select committee that it inquire- when the Government did not get the main (1) whether it is desirable to have they desired, they decided to have another one statutory authority to operate look. He said that when the Government metropolitan street passenger [16 October, 1957.1 202305

transport services; if so, whether Mr. JOHNSON: It is obvious that the the Bill satisfactorily achieves member for Nedlands has failed to grasp this purpose, or what type of the whole purport of this particular Bill. authority would be best f or the Admittedly, this is only one facet of the purpose, and under what condi- Bill, but It Is an important one. Hire- tions it should operate; and Purchase is a method of buying, and one (2) whether there are more desirable of the purports of this Bill is to ensure alternatives. that people who are buying by hire-pur- chase methods have a real interest in the B1LL-HIRE-PURCHASE AGREEMENTS. goods which they are in the process of purchasing on terms. It is regularising In Committee. that particular point. I trust that point Resumed from the 9th October. Mr. is clear to the member for Nedlands and Moir in the Chair; Mr. Johnson In charge the Committee and the lien will fall not of the Bill. only on the goods but on the purchaser's Clause 15-Lien on goods under hire- equity. purchase agreement: To meet a difficulty which has been The CHAIRMAN: Progress was reported pointed out to me by people who are in- after Mr. Johnson had moved an amend- terested in the trade that it is possible ment to insert alter the word "provision" to establish a lien on the goods for an in line 22, page 16, the words "and in any amount greater than the equity, I have case such lien shall not exceed the sum of moved for a restriction of the amount of twenty-five pounds in the case of a motor- equity or lien which can be given, to an vehicle or industrial machine nor the sum amount which I feel sure must be less of ten pounds in any other ease." than the purchaser's equity in the goods at any time. There is a movement of Mr. COURT: The member for Leeder- thought in relation to purchasing on hire- ville seeks to place a limit on the amount purchase in that the people who are in of lien by which a person doing work on the process of purchasing the goods con- certain chattels can be protected. I sider they belong to nobody but them- explained to the Committee last time selves. It is a legal fiction, but it is so. this Bill was being discussed that I am if this clause goes through, a purchaser opposed to the Principle of this clause. must have an equity in goods which re- Even if the amendment is adopted by the quire to be repaired. I think the amend- Committee, it is my intention to oppose ment is reasonable and fancy it will be the clause as amended. A principle is acceptable to people in the trade. I trust involved, namely, whether we are going it will receive the support of the Com- to upset the established understanding mittee. regarding liens. If we are going to grant liens, as the clause proposes, we might as Hon. A. F. WATTS: I propose to sup- well forget the principles of hire-purchase port the amendment because, so far as I law and bills of sale. can see, it is better than the clause. I The Important part of the clause have no guarantee that the clause will be reads-- rejected, so I therefore support the and the person who does the work amendment. I realise the difficulties im- hats, before commencing the same, pressed upon us by the member for actual notice of that provision. Leederville. I fully comprehend also the ancient custom of an artificer's lien in What chance the owner of the chattels respect of work done on a, chattel as is has of conveying that information to the dealt with under this clause. person doing the work is beyond me. In theory it could be said he might know However, I find it difficult to satisfy the work was being requested by the pur- myself that the lien shall not be valid and chaser, but it would be a remote chance enforceable against the vendor if the hire- that he would know. In Practice, more purchase contains a, provision prohibiting often than not, the hirer or purchaser the creation of a lien by the purchaser would take the chattel to the person doing and the person who does the work has, the work and request that the work be before commencing the same, actual done. notice of that provision. I do not see how the person is ever going to get it. The basis of my argument last week It seems to me that the last few words was that the person doing the work should of the clause destroy its earlier intentions. run the risk of the credit-worthiness of I am reluctant to Impose on the vendor the purchaser and not be expected to be an unlimited responsibility in connection protected by a lien on the chattel. The with a lien for work done on the chattel. member for Leederville has certainly broken the original wording down. How- Mr. COURT: If the member for Leeder- ever, it might be felt that the amount ville had spoken during the second read- is so small that it is of no consequence, ing of this Bill in the manner he spoke but in point of fact it does not matter to this amendment, I can assure the Com- whethere it is 5s. or £500; it is wrong in mittee that I would not have supported principle. the second reading. The hon. member [ASSEMBLY., wishes to completely disregard an estab- Mr. Johnson: We are trying to ensure lished method of trading and he fobs it he has an equity. off with a reference to legal fiction. There Mr. COURT: He has only to complete is no fiction about this; it is an established the transaction and exercise his option, method. People can use bills of sale which is clearly defined, in the ordinary way if they want owner- ship of the chattel to go to the person Mr. Johnson: He must have an equity who has use of it, or they can use the hire- at all times. purchase method, which is what it says; Mr. COURT: No one would deny that the goods are hired and used during the he should not have an equity in the chat- purchase period. tels but it must be in accordance with es- The Minister for Native Welfare: it is tablished legal custom. not over-emphasised in the sale. It is Amendment put and negatived. generally hidden as much as possible. Mr. COURT: I do not want to labour Mr. COURT: There are members who this matter as I think I have made my would have us believe the public are in- point clear on the question of a lien, and nocents abroad. I hope the Committee will reject the whole The Minister for Native Welfare: A lot clause. I oppose the clause. are. Clause put and a division taken with The CHAIRMAN: The Minister for the following result:- 2 Native Wefare will refrain from inter- Ayes .. jecting while not sitting in his place. Noes- 13 Mr. COURT: For the member for Leederville to say that I do not compre- Majority for 7 hend what he is trying to achieve is true, if he is trying to completely rewrite the Ayes. concept of hire-purchase law. Mr. Andrew Mr. Lawrence Mr. Brady Mr. Marshall Mr. Johnson: Trying to put in a word Mr. Gaily Mr. Norton Mr. Graham Mr. O'Brien in respect of purchasers. Mr. Hall Mr. Potter Mr. COURT: If a person uses hire-pur- Mr. Heal Mr. Rodoreda Mr. Hoar Mr. Sewell chase law, he knows that until he com- Mr. Jami eson Mr. Sleenla~n pletes the payments under that agree- Mr. Johnson M r. Toms ment and exercises the option in that Mr. Lapham Mr. May agreement, he is not the legal owner. (Telrer.) Mr. Johnson: People should know, but Noes. Mr. Bovell Sir Ross MctartY in Practice they do not- Mr. Court Mr. Nelder Mr. COURT: There are lots of things Mr. Crommelin Mr. Roberts Mr. Orayden Mr. Wptta people should know and do not bother to Mr. flutehinson Mr. Wild learn, but they are expected to know the Mr. Mann Mr. 1. Manning law. Mr. W. Manning (Teller. p Mr. Johnson: And sharks make use of Pairs. Ayes. Noes laws, too. Mr. Hawke Mr. flrnnd Mr. Kelly Mr. flrre'l Mr. COURT: The hon. member has a Mr. Nul en Mr. Old fleld distorted mind on the whole thing. it is Mr. W. Hlegney Mr. Perkins only at this stage of proceedings that he 'Mr. Tonkin Mr. Hfearman Mr. Rhatigan Mr. Owen wants to change the whole concept of hire- Mr. Thon purchase law. Mr. Evans Mr. Johnson: Not completely. Clause thus passed. Clause 16-agreed to. Mr. COURT: In a basic concept he is trying to establish Johnson law. Clause 17-Removal of goods: Mr. Johnson: No. Mr. COURT: I move an amendment- That after the word "Purchaser"~ ins Mr. COURT: I1 would not have a bar line 35. page 17, the following words of it. be inserted:- Mr. Johnson:. You are protecting the of the hearing whereof the ven- sharks. dor shall give not less than four- Mr. COURT: Nothing of the sort. This teen days' notice and on the hear- particular law is the most convenient one ing whereof the vendor shall be we have to assist people who want entitled to be heard. to purchase under this system. The mem- There are good reasons why agreements ber for Leederville referred to a buyer provide that the purchaser will keep the having a real interest. Of course he has. chattels at a certain address. However, He has an interest in completing the provision exists for the purchaser to apply transaction, exercising option, and then to the court for permission to remove those becoming the legal owner. goods to another address, and I do not [16 October. 1957.] 230730 disagree with that principle because, due order could bring about a series of un- to change of employment or residence, it desirable situations. I know the member is not always possible to keep the chattels for Leederville feels strongly about some at a particular address and there must be of the methods used for repossession, but some machinery whereby they can be most of these methods are due to the fault transferred. In the absence of mutual of the purchaser both during the period agreement, it is reasonable that the pur- of repossession and subsequently. Most chaser should be able to apply to some of the people concerned in such cases are authority for the legal right to transfer ones who least deserve the protection of the goods. However, it is equally proper this legislation. that the owner should have notice of the In other words, it is the undesirable application so that he can be heard by the people who take full advantage of any local court. chance they can get to put something over. Mr. JOHNSON: It is not my intention The subelause is consistent with some of to oppose the amendment except to sug- the other provisions in the Bill where we gest that the Deputy Leader of the Op- attempt to ride roughshod over contract position might withdraw it as it is not law. The Bill contains Provisions for the necessary and will only add to the exces- hirers to receive copies of their agreements sive complications of the Bill. No Pur- and all other relevant documents. It is chaser would approach the court and in- made a serious offence not to give them cur the attendant expense unless he had those documents. It cannot be denied that first approached the vendor to get per- the purchaser is adequately protected, as mission by agreement. Therefore it is he should be, in regard to obtaining full certain that if the vendor disagrees and written details of his transaction, showing the purchaser then goes to the court, the both his rights and his responsibilities. vendor would already have had consider- Therefore, to legislate to cut right across able notice of the matter. So the pur- the established law of contract so that a chaser will not go to the court unless there written agreement between people is not is disagreement. worth the paper it is written on, is some- thing which I suggest this Chamber has Mr. COURT: If the amendment were no intention, normally, of agreeing to. unnecessary, I would not bother to move There must be some sanctity in a contract it, but it is necessary. Although there between two individuals. I hope that not might have been consultation or argu- only will the Committee agree to the ment between the parties, the fact remains that the purchaser could seek the local deletion of these words, but to the deletion court's permission without the owner of the whole of the subclause. knowing of it. I have been assured by a Mr. JOHNSON: In the minds of most legal authority that there would be no of us there is something a little more sacred obligation on the part of the court to than contract law, or the right of goods, advise the owner. Therefore, the appli- and that is the right of a person to have cation could go through and it would take his home as his own. The attitude of the a considerable time before the owner could member for Nedlands is that when signing catch up with the chattels or the pur- a hire-purchase contract, the purchaser chaser. should attach to it his front door key. Amendment Put and passed: the clause, Mr. Court: Nonsense. as amended, agreed to. Mr. JOHNSON: The hon. member is Clause 1S-Liability for fraud, etc.: asking for the right of the owner of goods Mr. JOHNSON: I have an amendment to send his strong-arm men into any home where there has been a default of pay- at line 11. ments, and seize goods without a court The CHAIRMAN: I was going to sug- order. That is contrary to all the prin- gest that the Deputy Leader of the Op- ciples of decency, justice and normal Position move his amendment in two British and Australian outlook. Parts. He can move down to the word "goods" in line 11, and Mr. Court: Are you going to bring down if he is unsuccess- a law to alter all the mortgages and bills ful. then the member for Leederville can of sale in this country? move to have his amendment inserted. Mr. JOHNSON: If challenged in any Mr. COURT: In view of Your advice, court approaching a court of equity I fancy Sir. I shall modify my original intention they would be void so far as these par- and move an amendment- ticular provisions are concerned. I feel That all the words from and includ- sure that it was never Parliament's inten- Ing the word "any" In line 8, down to tion that people should enter into con- and including the word "goods" in line tracts giving the right of entry to un- 11, page 18, be struck out. authorised persons into private homes. I1 am prepared to meet the demands of I consider the subelause undesirable. it property to the extent of the amendment makes it extremely difficult for the vendor which is in my name on the notice paper. to obtain possession of the goods. Speed That amendment relates to the recovery of is often important and to wait for a court motor-vehicles which are stored outside [ASSEMBLY.)

People's homes. I believe most strongly in Mr, COURT: We are dealing with a the sanctity of the home, and the member transaction between two parties; one for Nedlands desires to infringe on that. might be a corporate body, and the other Mr. Court: You are romancing. might be a corporate body also. They might be private individuals. The Minister for Agriculture: it would have that result. Mr. Johnson: And one might be a per- an accountant. Mr. Court: No. son and the other Mr. JOHNSON: I know that people who Mr. COURT: He might even be a get into trouble over hire-purchase are banker. not always the most well off, or the most Mr. Johnson: Not in hire-purchase. deserving. But surely their homes should be protected against invasion in this way, Mr. COURT: The hon. member seems unless a court order is made. I feel sure to overlook tbp fact that we have to try that a division on this subelause would to produce a law which serves both parties not bring many votes for its deletion. equitably. Some of the worst people- Mr. W. A. MANNING: I support the and I am sure the hon. member would amendment. The member for Leederville not try to protect them for one minute- appears to overlook the fact that the owner are those who buy these goods on time of the goods is the vendor, He speaks of payment with the idea of putting some- the house as being a place of sanctity. thing over. That may be so, but within that house are Mr. O'Brien: No; they want to buy goods belonging to the vendor, and the them honestly, but perhaps through sick- question is, "Who has the right to those ness they are unable to fulfil their obliga- goods?" After all, the goods are only on tions. The hon. member wants the vendor hire until the purchase is completed, and to be able to come into aL home and take if the agreement is broken, the goods of back his goods. the vendor are in the home of the hirer. Mr. Johnson: And they can be re- Mr. COURT: Apparently the hon. mem- ber does not read the papers very closely. covered by legal process. If the vendor were to go through the pro- Mr. W. A. MANNING: That is not al- cess of law that the member for Leeder- ways possible. Some of these people are yulle wants, in some cases undesirable pur- prepared to take advantage of any point chasers--happily they form the minority in the law. What is the use of havf ,ng -will have disappeared completely with an agreement if on occasions like this, the goods. They are only making the we take no notice of it? We might as market tough for the decent purchaser. well do away with agreements. It is of no in 99 cases out of 100, where people are use having a law if it is not going to be in arrears, negotiations are conducted and enforced. I support the amendment. satisfactory arrangements made. Mr. CROMMELZN: The member for It is a well established fact-and this Leederville said that he would give way can be verified by the finance companies in regard to motorcars because they were operating in hire-purchase who want to kept outside the home. These days, motor- continue profitably and successfully-that cycles and motor-mowers can be pur- a repossessed article is almost always a chased on time payment, and it is only loss to the finance company. It is in their reasonable to asszume that they would be interests to keep a chattel in the posses- kept outside the homre. So why not apply sion of a hirer, even if they have to re- the same principle to them? arrange the method of payment. That isq Mr. Ross Hutchinson: There is the a commonsense approach. sanctity of the backyard! If we put this provision into the Act, Mr. CROMMELIN: I fail to see why it will play into the hands of the very the member for Leederville should restrict people the hon. member does not want the provision to motorcars only. to protect. We have done everything we Mr. COURT: Unfortunately, in these can to try to protect the decent purchaser, matters the member for Leederville takes and surely we should not try to protect a very one-sided view. Sometimes I the person who is trying to put something wonder why I put so much time into this over. I hope the Committee will accept legislation in view of what appears to be the amendment. the fate of it. I have tried to arrive at Mr. JOHNSON: I think it should go a balanced approach to this problem. on record just what the member for Ned- Mr. Johnson:. You have balanced it lands is trying to do. I will agree that like a balance sheet, in pounds. shillings there are bad purchasers-people who set and pence, without any human value. out to gyp the people who sell goods; but anybody who is in the trade is not inno- Mr. COURT: -That is plain nonsense. cent. However, there are innocent pur- Mr. Ross Hutchinson-, Why has not chasers as well as crook purchasers. There the member for Leederville whipped up are also foolish purchasers, and salesmen some support from his own side. who oversell and lead people into trouble. [16 October, 1957.) 230930

The clauses in these contracts are such The MINISTER FOR NATIVE WEL- that nobody would sign one of them if FARE: There are approximately 3,000 who they understood their implication. As re- are registered. What there is throughout gards default, it states that the hirer the Commonwealth, I would not know. irrevocably appoints the company to enter Salesmen are inducing people to bring in by force if necessary any premises ocen- broken-down washing machines, etc., and plied by him, or of which he may be a accepting them as deposits on goods cost- tenant or wherein the chattels or any part ing perhaps £150. If we encourage this thereof may be, and to seize and take pos- sort of thing, the future will be most un- session and remove such chattels. satisfactory. This Bill will prevent that happening. If the firms knew that they In this country If anyone is to enter did not have the protection they enjoy at another Person's home by force, surely it the moment, they would be a bit more care- must be by legal force af ter the due pro- cess of the law. It is a most nauseating ful. clause to put in a contract, and to think Mr. Court: You are making a second that anyone in this Chamber should try reading speech. to protect the rights of property over the The MINISTER FOR NATIVE WEL- sanctity of the home, makes my normally FARE: If people were as wise as the cool blood boil. I am most disappointed Deputy Leader of the Opposition, I doubt that anybody should ask that this clause whether nine-tenths of this buying would be struck out. I am prepared to meet the continue. I know that if the member for difficulties which members have mentioned Nedlands were handling the sales, he would in regard to motorcars. do so fairly, but these firms do not think Mr. Crommelin drew attention to the of human values but only of profits. In- slate of the Committee. v'estors are being offered from 10 to 20 per cent, and the money is being lent out Bells rung and a quorum formed. elsewhere at a. higher rate. Mr. JOHNSON: The idea supported by Mr. Ross Hutchinson: Where can I get the member far Nedlands and the member 20 per cent.? for lqarrogin that the rights of property The MINISTER FOR NATIVE WEL- override the sanctity of the home is com- FARE: Last week, in the papers, there was pletely nauseating to me, and I do not a case of two companies contesting certain think that members of their own party money transactions; the question raised would support them if they called for a being whether they were money-lenders division on this point. and whether they came under that Act. The MINISTER FOR NATIVE WEL- -Mr. Court: That has nothing to do with FARE: I have not spoken on the amend- hire-purchase. ment but I believe that this clause is one The MINISTER FOR NATIVE WEL- to which we should give great considera- FARE: That is typical of what is happen- tion, in view of the strides that have been ing. We should discourage this sort of made in hire-purchase sales in recent years. thing if we are to do the right thing by When the Act was formulated, I am sure our electors, otherwise the aftermath will no one visualised that there would be a be dreadful, and the ecoinmy of the State thousand-and-one articles bought on hire- will suffer. I know the Deputy Leader of purchase in the average home. People on the Opposition will probably say that hire- full-time employment are finding it dif- purchase sales encourage mass production ficult to meet their hire-purchase pay- and that workers enjoy a better standard ments. One such man asked mec to secure of living as a result, but people are being same adjustment of his debts with certain forced to take over these goods. Government departments so that he would not lose some of his domestic appliances, Mr. Ross Hutchin son: Do you want this namely, his refrigerator and sewing Bill carried? machine. The MIINISTER FOR NATIVE WEL- FARE: I do not want the Deputy Leader The story is that he has reared a family of the Opposition to succeed in amending of eight children; there has been an un- the Bill even though I have no illusions fortunate demise in the family, and though as to what its eventual fate will be. I he is working full-time he is at his wit's heard end to retain his refrigerator and the a member say that hire-purchase small amount of clothing in his home, selling would have the effect of the wives simply because the members of his family of workers not Permitting them to strike bought these articles In all good faith. because they would lose the articles they Apart from this, there are thousands of were buyi*ng on hire-purchase. High pres- people who are unfortuniate enough to be sure tactics in hire-purchas!e selling are out of work suffering the indignity of hav- not in the best interests of the buyers--by ing their furniture and other articles re- that I mean it is all right for the business moved from their homes. people and country People who are edu- cated in the pitfalls to buy goods on hire- Mr. Bovell: How many unemployed are Purchase. A short while ago there was a there in this State? classic example of a man buying a. truck. 2310 2310ASSEMBLY.]

casting £3,000 and when it was handed in person entering that Chamber should be the firm assessed his equity in that truck at least 30 years of age, with some experi- as £500. ence of life behind him. For that reason, I contend it is desirable to retain the ex- The CHAIRMAN: Order! I do not think isting provision. I believe that the status that has any relation to the clause. quo -should be maintained, as the Leg- The MINISTER FOR NATIVE WEL- islative Council is playing an essential FARE: I quote that example to show that part in good government in Western Auls- the firms are not giving these people the tralia. service which they would have them believe Hon. J. B. Sleeman: You don't believe they are receiving. that, do you? Mr. Ross Hutchinson: Would you like Mr. BOVELLJ: I do. I am thoroughly hire-purchase sales to be cut down? convinced that the Legislative Council The MINISTER FOR NATIVE WEL- both before responsible government and FARE: I would like them to be cut by half. since, has been the main factor in the maintaining of good and sane government Mr. Ross Hutchinson: That means you in Western Australia, by virtue of its being would deny these people the right to have a House of review. The Bill also aims these labour-saving devices in their homes. at widening the franchise for the Legisla- The MINISTER FOR NATIVE WEL- tive Council. If the Bill were passed it FARE: In many cases they do not want would allow a person over 21 who had them; they are forced to accept them. resided in a district continuously for five I have had salesmen calling at my back- years to be enrolled on the Legislative door; I know how they handle the women- Council roll. folk, and it is not long before they have Hon. J. B. Sleeman: That is reasonable. signed on the dotted line for these goods which they imagine Mr' BOVELL: The provision also gives will give them do- preference to ex-servicemen who have mestic bliss. served overseas and to members of Her Progress reported. Majesty's forces overseas. There was no mention by the member for Beeloe of BILL-CONSTITUTION &CrS servicemen seeking this franchise. If AMENDMENT. the servicemen concerned desire enrol- ment, they already have the full quali- Second Reading. fication. I was a member of the armed Debate resumed from the 9th October. services for five years during the 1939- 1945 war, and it was my responsibility MR. 'BOVELL (Vasse) [9.29]1: This Bill, to deal with many air crew trainees in which was introduced by the member for Western Australia and other States under Becloo, is, in my opinion, a backdoor the Empire Air Training scheme. During method of trying to alter the franchise my long association with many individual of the Legislative Council, I say that be- members of the services, I never at any cause I was rather disappointed that no time heard one single request for any Minister of the Government rose to special privilege in regard to enrolment for secure an adjournment of the debate the Legislative Council. Furthermore, as after the member for Beebeo had resumed a member of the Returned Servicemen's his seat. If it had not been for the action League and of the Air Force Association. of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, I have never heard any agitation for an the second reading could have been extension of the franchise as sought by agreed to without any comment from the member for Beeloo through this the Government whatsoever. measure. I believe that members of the I consider it is the Goverment's duty armed services and ex-servicemen are to Indicate its attitude towards a pro- content with the existing conditions of posal to make alterations to a major enrolment for the Council. Piece of legislation like the Constitution Let us analyse the qualifications for Act. But it would appear from the Gov- enrolment. Those who may be enrolled ernment's silence that it is in agreement are a freeholder who has a legal or equit- with the member for Beebeo; and, in fact able estate in possession situate in the that he introduced the Bill on its behalf. electoral province of a clear value of £50; It is unusual for a back-bench member a householder within the province occupy- supporting the Government to intro- ing any dwelling-house of £17 clear an- duce a Bill with such a -far-reaching nual value: a leaseholder who has a lease- effect. hold estate in possesion situated within The measure deals with two principal the province of an annual ratable value matters. One concerns the qualifications £17 and a person whose name is on the' of a candidate for election to the Legisla- electoral list of any municipality or road tive Council and seeks to reduce the age board in respect of a property within to 21. At present It is necessary for a can- the province of an annual ratable value didate for election to that House to be of not less than £17. 30 years of age; and as the Legislative I would say that any person in Western Council is essentially a House of review, I Australia who has a small stake in the am of the considered opinion that any country is eligible for enrolment, and the [216 October, 1957.1 212311 hon. member has given no legitimate interests of democrcy, and prate that we reason why we should agree to his pro- of the western nations-if I could put it posal. Anybody over the age of 21 who that way-are the democratic countries, liked to show a practical interest in the as against nondescript elements on the community by acquiring a small parcel of other side-why it is that we have impor- land or who, as a family man, rented a tant political parties like the Liberal Party house to the value of £17 a year, would be which for some reason are afraid of -what entitled to enrolment. I consider that the might happen if the people really had a existing conditions are wide enough, and say in electing their Parliaments, and not cannot agree to the proposals in the Bill. just a Government charged with adminis- In no instance did the member for tration but without the power to give eff ect Beeloo submit evidence which would lead to its policy, irrespective of the majority by the House to the belief that this legisla- which it was returned. tion is required. It is disappointing that I well remember that some three or four the Government, when one of the members years ago there was one of those rare of its party introduces legislation of a far- occasions when I found myself in agree- reaching kind remains silent. I oppose the ment with a leading article appearing in second reading. "The West Australian" newspaper. Mr. Ross Hutchinson: It was right for THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT once, was it? (Han. H. E. Graham-East Perth) [9.40]: There is no sinister reason why the Gov- The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: it ernment is, or indeed should, remnain silent declaimed very purposefully, and to the in connection with this Bill. point, that in 1953 a Government had been returned by the people of Western Mr. Bovell: I am pleased to hear that. Australia; and yet, within a few short The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: months, the chief propositions of the Let me inform the member for Vasse newly-elected Government's economic pol- immediately that it is not my intention icy were being Pushed aside by an to discuss the various points contained in irresponsible Legislative Council-irre- the measure. I think it is well known that sponsible in the sense of not representing the policy of the party to which I have the the People, comprised of members who honour to belong is to work progressively were elected prior to the general election for a full adult franchise for the Legisla- at which the whole of the people of the tive Council, for which reason I think all State were committed under the law to members could assume--without a Minis- record their votes. In other words, it was ter being on his feet to tell them-that a making a mockery of democracy, and yet Bill designed to extend the franchise, even there are persons on the other side of the though it did not go nearly as far as the House, including many who wear ex- Government and my party generally servicemen's badges and who. in* other would desire, would receive the support of words, undertook certain duties and re- the Government. sponsibilities in order to fight for demno- I do not admit the validity of the cracy but who, on their return to this criticism that a measure of this importance country, are ready to fight to the bitter should be introduced by the Government end to see that democracy is not put into rather than by a private member. What operation. goes on in the Liberal Party, I know not; Mr. Bovell: That is not but it is the right of a private member, if so. he so desires, to introduce legislation. The The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: member for Beeloo thought that members Surely democracy means a Government of the Opposition would be sufficiently elected by the people and not by a section realistic and democratic to agree to this of the people only! The ownership of proposition. Up to date it appears that Property or the fact of paying a certain his belief or hopes were ill-founded. rental do not of themselves give any spe- Many years ago, when I was sitting on cial quality to an Individual, apart from the other side of the House-and indeed what is artificially given by conservative prior to that, wheni I was a supporter of a members of Parliament. I ]have previously previous Labour Government-I used to expressed the view that the greatest nitwit speak regularly-and I am afraid at some in the community becomes eligible to vote length-against the Legislative Council for the Legislative Council if he has some and in favour of various propositions sort of interest in a very small piece of ranging from a broadening of the fran- land, yet a Rhodes scholar, perhaps the chise for, to the abolition of, the Legisla- most brilliant mind that the State has tive Council. ever produced, unless he is the owner of some land or is paying tribute or rent to Mr. Bovell: The franchise is all- somebody, is disqualified. embracing as it is. The Person who went overseas and per- The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: I haps ruined his health in the defence of have never been able to understand-par- his country,, fighting for democracy, is ticularly after a period when drums have denied a vote because he is not in some been banged and flags flapped and we have way attached to the land In accordance allegedly fought two world wars in the wi-'h the existing provisions of the Act, rASSEZIBLY.]

but a methylated-spirits drinker, fortun- brought to bear when, for a short period, ate enough to be related to a great-aun the Labour Party had a majority in the who left him a bit of land, even though it Federal Senate while a non-Labour Gov- were in the middle of the Nullarbor Plain, ernment was in office in Canberra, Be- would be entitled to vote. cause the Labour Senate was able to in- Mr. I. W. Manning: I do not think there terfere with the legislative programme of are many returned servicemen who have thie Menzies Government it was subjected not a vote for another place. to a great deal of criticism. The MINISTR FOR TRANSPORT: I Hell was let loose at about that time do not think the hon. members knows and many of those sitting opposite me what he is talking about. at this moment joined in the commotion. However valid their criticism may have Mr. Roberts: Do you know of one? been, it could not apply with nearly the The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: Do same force as could be applied in this not let us bring the debate down to the case because, after all, the Senate of the level to which some members are trying Commonwealth was elected on an adult to reduce it. Both the members who have franchise. In my view, it is still wrong in just interjected know that in my position principle that there should be a second as Minister for Housing-if in no other Chamber, of whatever composition, cap- way-I have association, directly or in- able of preventing a Government from directly, with many hundreds of people governing in the real sense. Here it is who are seeking for the first time in their not a Question of endeavouring to over- lives to take part in business transactions come impasses created by a democratic- that will allow them to record a vote for ally elected second Chamber. We have another place so that they may play their not yet reached that stage. In this in- part in this so-called democracy of ours, stance, we have a Government-or a sup- Mr. I. W. Manning: Why did you not porter of that Government-fighting for tell us that instead of getting personal? the right for certain people to vote. Fancy it being necessary, in the year 1957, The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: In for organisations, individuals and parties what way was I personal? to fight for the right to vote on behalf Mr. L, W. Manning: Slinging off, Of any Section Of the Community. The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: I Mr. Bovell: There are some Legislative was decrying the attitude of those who, Councils which are appointed legislatures. for some reason best known to themselves, although they are ex-servicemen, seek to The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: deny fellow ex-servicemen the right to Shame upon them! vote in their own State for their own Mr. Bovell: That is the case under one Parliament. Surely it is fundamentally Labour State Government. wrong that an election should be held and that a Government having appeared on The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: the hustings and stated a programme to That may be so, but what we determine the people, and having been returned 'wvith in this State has effect Primarily in West- a considerable majority, should then be era Australia only, Let us put our house rendered ineffective by another Place! in order and we will then be in a position to Point an accusing finger at 'New South If democracy means anything, it must Wales, Victoria or any other State with mean that a Government so elected should the exception of be given an opportunity to give effect to Queensland- its programme, yet we. in association wit h Mr. Ross Hutchinson: In the sphere of m embers in another place, or a certain electoral legislation, would you not say proportion of us. seek to make 1t impos- that all your actions are designed sible for democracy to work. We allow eventually to eliminate the Upper House? to exist a situation where the efforts of a. Government endorsed by the people are The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: I stultified. There is talk of hasty legisla- do not know what steps, other than Bills tion and mention of a House of review and introduced from time to time for that so on. That may have been the intention Purpose, this Government has taken in i n the old days, but all of us who are that direction. I do know, however, that realistic and have some knowledge of the there are such democrats on the other process at the present day know that -side of this Chamber-they have their there is a 'party attitude-I criticise no counterparts in another Place-that they one for it-displayed in another place in refuse to allow the question to go to the a manner very similar to that which per- people of Western Australia by way of tains in this Assembly. referendum. I am surprised at the attitude of Liberal The SPEAKER: I draw the Minister's members, and indeed Country Party mem- attention to the fact that this Bill1 does bers, in this Parliament in regard to this not deal with that proposition but with question because I can recall vividly the extending the franchise of another Place -utterances to which they gave expression and I think the debate should be confined and how the power of the Press was to that subject. [18 October, 1957.1 212313

The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: I for Instance, if a Bill were introduced pro- think that would be a good idea. viding that all financial members of the Australian Labour Party-but none of any Mr. floss Hutchinson: My paint is that other political colour-should be if you extend the franchise of another entitled place to make it the -same as that of this to vote; that would be grossly unfair, even House, it will lead to the elimination of though it would, in fact, extend the fran- another place. Is that not largely your chise of another place. aim or hope? However, no charge can be legitimately The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: made against the principles containied i No. By and large, it would enable the this measure. If we acknowledge certain Government to govern. In the Common- things which, deep in our hearts, wve all wealth sphere where there is adult fran- know to be true, we must agree that all chise for both Chambers, the occasions the people of Western Australia should be are rare on which there is a Government en titled to a say in the election of members of one political colour and a majority of to their own State Parliament. I hope that the opposite political colour in the other all members opposite will not be led astray House. by the member for Vasso but will do a little original and fundamental thinking in Mr. Ross Hutchinson: That is so, but regard to this measure, I was trying to get you to agree that your aqctions are designed ultimately to abolish Mr. Ross Hutchinson., Would you agree another place. to a proposition that all people should The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: if have a right to vote for another place under that be so-I do not necessarily make any a universal franchise but on a proportional comment on that statement-let us deal represenitation basis? with this legislation first and when we have The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: I a popular vote for another place the wouild certainly be prepared to examine Parliament of that day will decide what that. I would be prepared to have a look st-eps should be taken in that regard. After at that suggestion. I look forward to the aill, the position in Western Australia is member f or Cottesloe giving notice of his to a great extent that if there is a Liberal- intention to introduce a Bill in the course Country Party Government, the Legislative of the next few days. It would be examined Council, as now constituted, becomes wvith all sympathy. However, whether we virtually a rubber stamp. There are ex- like it or not, we have the proposition of ceptions to that, but it is in effect a rubber the member for Beeloo before us at the stamp- moment, and I hope and trust that the Mr. Ross Hutchinson: Very big excep- members in both Houses will support it. tions. The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: I HON. A. F. WFAATTS (Stirling)[1.: tio not concede that, but when the people I would like to have a f ew words to say elect a Labour Government, the Legislative on this measure introduced by the mem- Council becomes a House of obstruction. ber for Beelco. I am just going to tell Accordingly, it is either that or a rubber the Minister, wxho has resumed his seat, stamp, depending on the circumstances in that while I am prepared to concede to this Chamber, and therefore it is worthless. him a complete and honest belief in the It is either a rubber stamp or else it pre- sentiments that he has expressed, I ex- vents the duly elected Government from Pect him to concede the same complete governing and in neither case do I think it and honest belief to me in the sentiments is anything but an anachronism in this that I am about to express, because be enlightened age, showed, in the course of his remarks, your some disinclination to do so, not in re- Mr. Ross Hutchinson: I believe that gard to myself personally, I admit, but Government would be much more careful in regard to other members sitting on this about the legislation it introduces if it were side of the House. not for another place. For my part, I believe in what is known The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: If as the bicameral system of government. that were correct, surely it would be a good That is to say, I believe that there should thing, and Governments of any colour be two Houses of the legislature. I sub- might become a little more responsible than mit that the best examples of successful they are at the moment. government, with satisfaction to the Mr. Roberts: At the moment. People, and on what I1 can safely call a democratic basis, have been those where The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: Yes. the Parliament has been conducted under Surely to allow to exist a body which can the bicameral system and not the least frustrate a Government and the will of conspicuous among those. I would suggest, the people is not desirable! Unless it can is the Parliament of Western Australia. be shown that a Bill which seeks to extend In the course of his remarks the Minister the franchise is grossly unfair, it is to be indicated that when the Government of commnded. By "grossly unfair" I mean, hks Political complexion is in office, the 2314 2314[ASSEMBLY.]

Legislative Council is merely an obstruc- 'Hon. A. F. WATTS: I might be able tion, and when the Government of repre- to in regard to this Bill, but I could not do sentatives of this side of the Chamber is so with any other, and I think that has in office, the Council is merely a rubber been pretty clearly demonstrated in that stamp. Chamber in the last few years. I might I strongly disagree with both those se n- be able to have a rough guess in regard timents and I think that an examination to this Bill and it might be accurate, but of the facts would disclose that they are I would not like to try in regard to any entirely untenable. I well remember other Bill because I have bad some very when I sat in a seat approximnately where considerable shocks in the last month the Minister is now sitting for a period concerning the passing of legislation of 54 to 6 years and of having come to through the second reading or other the conclusion that the Legislative Coun- stages in another place. cil was an obstruction to the Government Mr Heal: I hope you will have some of which I was a member, because I ven- shocks in this instance. ture to suggest that another place made Hon. A. F. WATTS: Perhaps I will. It as many amendments to the greater por- will only be a further indication that the tion of the Bills introduced then as it has Legislative Council is not an obstruction done in any similar period when the Gov- to the hon. member's Government or to ermnent of the party to which the Min- the one to which I belong. ister belongs has been in office. Without any question in my mind, I would ven- Mr. Andrew: What about the Bill? ture to say that the Legislative Council Hon. A. F. WATTS: The Minister put has not obstructed the present Govern- the other argument forward, apparently ment-If "obstructed" is the proper word: in an endeavour to establish that there I am merely using it because the Minister was need to do so. and So perhaps I did-any more than it obstructed the Gov- might endeavour to make some reply to ernment of which I was a member, and his observations and that is what I am it was no more a rubber stamp to that seeking to do. If the hon. member will Government than it has been to any leave me to arrive at my destination in other. the best possible way I will do so, but I will go a little further. Our late I do not want to be sidetracked. friend, Hon. John Wilcock, once observed, So it is pretty well demonstrated that in the course of a speech that I heard him the bicameral system of government is make at a public meeting, that the indus- one we should stick to. The Minister trial legislation in Western Australia was, referred to a refecrendumn. History in his opinion, the best in the Common- tells that there was a referendum held on wealth. this subject in Queensland and as a result the electors decided, by a majonity, that Hon. Sir Ross MeLarty:. I thought he they wished to retain the Legislative said it was the best in the world. Council. Shortly afterwards, however, the Hon. A. F. WATTS: He might have Government of the day decided to abolish said that, but at least it was the best the Legislative Council. in the Commonwealth. That, I do not The Minister for Transport: An all-im- doubt, was a statement made by an portant thing! Shortly afterwards a gen- hon. gentleman of whom we all had a eral election was held when this was a. high personal regard and it was entirely prime issue. meant. If that were so. the whole of that Hon. A. F. WATTS: The referendum legislation had been passed by our bi- was held on aL specific subject and the cameral system of government, to wit, electors had duly recorded their votes, the Legislative Assembly and the Legi-s- whereas a general election campaign is lative Council in the net result. So there a matter which involves half a dozen is little or nothing, to date, to indicate other things as well and perhaps even that the bicameral system of government more than that. It certainly does not practised in this State has failed or that confine Itself to one subject. it is in any way more undesirable than The Minister for Transport: And when it is anywhere else. the Liberals got back into office, they I would suggest that, in the Common- made no attempt to reinstate the Legis- wealth sphere, the Senate, which is lative Council. elected on the same sort of franchise as Hon. A. F. WATTS: As I understand the House of Representatives has become it, they may make some attempt. I hope my the rubber stamp of the Rouse of Rep- facts are right in this instance as they resentatives. One has only to read the were at the beginning, but I understand debates of the Senate or to attend that that It had been officially decided to pen- Chamber, as I did on one occasion, to sion off the members of the Legislative find out that the passage of legislation Council in order that they might be in- through it can become a farce. duced to vote for their own abolition, The Minister for Transport: Don't notwithstanding the result of the refer- you think you could tell now who will endum that had been held previously, and vote for and who will vote against this I also understand that some of them are BI, in another place? still drawing the pensions. [10 October. 1957.] 2315

Hon. J. B. Sleeman: That is not correct, having to reside in this State for two Hon. A. F. WATTS: I would like the years during the five years immediately hon. member to verify his denial of my prior to the election. statement because I am fairly certain Mr. Jamieson; Did you not hear my in- that it is correct. However, I started off troductory speech? by saying that I hoped that I was as correct in this as I was in the first Hon. A. F. WATTS: I did not hear it place. Neverthless, I think the hon. and not having obtained a copy of it, I member will find that this is substan- was unable to study it. tially correct. Let us now come a little Mr. Jamieson: It could be the first two nearer to home. All these proposals that years of his life immediately prior to the have been brought forward in recent election. times to amend the franchise of the Leg- islative Council have, I am convinced, Hon. A. F. WATTS: The Constitution been brought forward mainly with ob- Acts Amendment Act reads, "and shall have resided in Western Australia for two years jective of finally abolishing the Legisla- tive Council. I do not believe that that Is previous to such elections.' In the hon. going to improve parliamentary govern- member's Bill the words are, "two years ment in Western Australia- during the period of five years after at- taining the age of 21 years." It also reads. Hon. J. B. Sleeman: Can you tell us "two years in a period of five years im- why a Liberal Government wants the mediately prior to such an election." The Legislative Council out in New Zealand? only part of the Bill that is clear to me is Hon. A. F. WATTS: -and because I do that he could have lived out of Western not think it is going to improve parlia- Australia for two years and 11 months or mentary government in Western Austra- a little longer and still have complied lia, I am not enthusiastic about this Bill. with this proposal. In looking at it a little more closely I cannot see any justification or'need for for a moment or two, I have not Yet grasped an amendment to the section at all. AS a the reason why it is necessary to amend matter of fact, very similar considerations Section 20 of the Constitution Acts Amend- apply to the amendment to Section 7 of the ment Act dealing with the qualifications of Constitution Acts Amendment Act which members of the Legislative Assembly, which only seeks to tinker in much the same way is part of this measure because, except for with the qualifications of a member of the one aspect, there is as much difference Legislative Council, the major alteration between the existing Section 20 and the being that a person can become a member proposal in this Bill as there is between of the Legislative Council after attaining Tweedledum and Tweedledee. The pro- the age of 21 Years, instead of 30 years posal in the Bill states that the Person under the present provision. "has, since attaining the age of 21 Years, If that were the only amendment to the resided in Western Australia for not less Bill I would have no particular objection than two years during the period of five to it. As far as I am concerned, if the years immediately prior to such election.' electors want to have the same in respect The proposition in Section 20 of the of Legislative Council members-that is, those who have attained 21 years of age- existing Act reads. "and shall have resided they can do so. I have not discovered any in Western Australia for two years previous virtue in the provision that they must be to such election." I want to know why this over 30 years of age. If there is any virtue alteration is being sought. I want to know in that age limit, it has not been greatly what type of subjects we are going to sub- apparent to me. That Is the only amend- mit to the Legislative Council that cannot ment, the purpose of which is obvious in be submitted now under this proposition, the amendment to Section 7 of when a person has resided in Western Aus- the Act. tralia for not less than two years during Mr. Bovell: It was considered that a per- the five Years immediately prior to the son attaining the age of 30 years would election, instead of residing in Western have more experience in life. Australia for two years immediately prior Hon. A. F. WATTS: That might have to the election, because the difference is been the original reason. I do not regard that he could have lived outside of West- that as any virtue, because it is purely a ern Australia for two years and 11 months, House of review irrespective of what the but provided he has been here for two mature age may be. I understand from years and one month he can stand. the interjection of the member far Cot- In those circumstances he might have as tesloe that there must be some differen- much interest in Western Australia as to tiation of franchise between one House have virtually no interest at all. I want and the other if we are to avoid making a to know the reason why we are asked to rubber stamp of one, which I say the consider a Proposition of this nature. Senate in this country has become because Surely the existing provision in the Consti- the members are elected on a similar tution Acts Amendment Act concerning franchise. the merits of the Legislative Assembly in That is the underlying reason why the that a person having to reside in this difference has arisen. I contend there has,- State for two Years is sufficient, without to be some difference in the franchise if [ASSEMBLY.]

we are to preserve a system which has BILL-ELECTORAL DISTRICTS ACT operated here extremely satisfactorily, and AMENDMENT. all the evidence points to its having pro- duced legislation in this State well above Second Reading. the average of other communities of a Debate resumed from the 9th Qctobcr. similar character to this. THE MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT M r. Bovell: The Senate was designed as (Hon, H. E. Graham-East Perth) [10.251: a State House. The Bill introduced by the Leader of the Hon. A. F. WATTS: It is no more a Country Party contains three principles. State House or a House of review. There- The mover took a total of less than 10 fore it is worthy of considerable criticism minutes to introduce the measure, not from time to time. It was in 1948 or that I am judging the value of its contents 1949 that legislation was introduced to by the length of the remarks he made. confer the franchise of the Legislative Mr. Ackland: He set a fine example. Council upon certain persons who were ax-members of the armned forces. In prin- The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: I ciple it was accepted by both Houses, but feel that in agreeing with that interjection unfortunately there were in the same I am incriminating myself. The a mend- measure, if I remember rightly, other pro- ment deals with the disposition of the posals to widen the franchise which re- fraction after a certain procedure has sulted in the defeat of the measure in the been followed in order to determine the Legislative Council, if it was not defeated quotas in the metropolitan area, and sub- in this House. I am not certain of the sequently the country districts. It is in- posit-ion, but I do recollect that such a teresting to observe that when the 1947 Bill was introduced and received a con- legislation was introduced, something siderable measure of support, it was de- along the lines of what is sought by the feated because of other proposals in the Leader of the Country Party was then in Bill which could not be supported by those existence, and therefore the Opposition who were prepared to give consideration to which was then the Government was re- conferring the franchise upon ex-merubers sponsible for a situation which, in any of' the forces, particularly those who had event, apparently the Country Party sec- seen foreign service. tion did not like. The same will be the position in regard The Act lays down that if there is any to this Bill. We cannot subscribe to the odd fraction in excess, then the benefit principles of the measure because although shall be given to the metropolitan area. it contains one paragraph that might be The Leader of the Country Party wants made deserving-it would require amend- the benefit to be given to the country dis- ment-there are three or four others tricts. To be accurate, previously it was which are quite unnecessary, or alterna- left to the discretion of the Commissioners tively totally undesirable. As far as I am a., to what was done with the fraction in concerned, I cannot support this measure. connection with the seats to make up the Mlr. O'BRIEN: 50. Under the existing legislation, for- I move- getting the seats in the North-West which That the debate be adjourned. are in an entirely different category, and which if included would give greater em- Mot-ion put and a division taken with phasis to the point I amn making, the fact the following result:- that the country seats are weighted on the Ayes .. basis of two to one on a numerical basis, Noes .. 14 as against the metropolitan area, surely does not entitle the former to something Majority for . 7 additional. I can well appreciate the concern be- Aye cause of the gradual drift of the popula- Mr. Andrew Mr. Marshall tion; if not a drift in some cases, then a Mr. Brady Mr. Moir Mr. Gaffy Mr. Norton rapid growth of the metropolitan area as Mr. Graham Mr. O'Brien against either the slow growth or static Mr. Hall Mr. Potter position in country districts. Because of Mr. Heal Mr. ROdoreda Mr. Hoar .%r. Sewell that fact, the ever greater proportion of Mr, Jamieson Mdr.Sleernan population resident in the metropolitan Mr. Johnson Mr. Toms area has some effect on the ratio of rural to Mr. Laphami Mr. May Mr. Lawrence metropolitan seats. After all is said and done, elections are participated in by we. S. persons. Whilst we have conceded, and Mr. Ackland Sir Ross Mctarty Mr. Court Mr. Nalder not aLl] of us agree with, the formula that Mr. Crommelin Mr. Roberts is employed at present, the main con- Mr. Grayden Mr. Watts sideration is the rights of people to be able Mr. Hearman Mr. Wild Mr. Hutchinson Mr. I. Manning to exercise an influence; in other words. Mr. W. Manning (Teller broad acres should not be the determining factor, and neither should the location of Motion thus passed; debate adjourned. an elector. [16 October. 1957.1 212317

The fairest method is surely one vote, The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: No, one value. Within the borders of the the Government with a majority here and States that is the procedure followed under in the Legislative Council; and because of the Commonwealth electoral law. Strangely the benefits it bestowed on a Government enough, I did not hear complaints or of that colour. 1 venture to suggest the criticisms from either within the State or division lists were very definitely on a beyond, with one possible exception, of the party basis in both Houses. procedure that is followed by the Com- monwealth. Somehow in our own State Mr. Bove]]: They were not. parliamentary set-up, this sort of thing The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: I seems to have become a fetish. am referring to this particular point. There is an anti-country outlook on the Mr. Bovell: The second reading was part of some metropolitan people, and passed with the support of one of your perhaps conversely an antagonistic feeling members-the member for North Perth. against the metropolitan area on the part The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: of country people. That is a very bad That could be so. state of affairs on which to base an argu- ment or proposition. A few people on Mr. Bovell: I should have said a former occasions speak along those lines. I recall, member for North Perth. and I hope I am not doing an injustice by The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: As saying this, the president of the Farmers' the present provision was put in the Act Union talking about the people in the by a Government of which the Leader of metropolitan area being parasites. That the Country Party formed part, I cannot achieves exactly nothing, except perhaps see any warrant for altering the present the very reverse of what is intended. arrangement. Mr. Ross Hutchinson: Do you agree with The second proposition is to give a work- the population area formula for the break- ing margin of 20 per cent. instead of 10 down of the petrol tax? per cent. when fixing the quota of elec- The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: torates. Admittedly, it does have some That is an entirely different matter. The effect. For instance, the electorate of the basis of allocation of funds can be any of member for Murchison-and he represents a hundred different methods, but this the Murchison very effectively-because of measure concerns the right of the people, the existing formula, had to be extended to the electoral community of Western Aus- within one mile of the heart of Kalgoorlie in order to pick up sufficienit people to give tralia. him the numbers to come within the limits Mr. Ross 'Hutchinson: The same thing as laid down then in the Act. I think I am applies to the rights of people in regard right in saying it was a 20 per cent. to the break down of the petrol tax, margin previously, but at the instigation although I realise it is not quite com- of the Liberal-Country Party Government, parable. in 1247, it was reduced to 10 per cent., which it is at the present time. The The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: It reasons submitted in 1947 which convinced is a fundamental right. I want to know the majority of Parliament would probably why if I live in East Perth or Victoria Park, be the reasons today, and I do not think my vote is worth only half as much as if a reference to the speech by the Leader I lived a couple of miles further up the of the Country Party in introducing this track, say, in the electorate of the member measure, would give any reason why there for Dale. should be a departure. Mr. Court: If you follow that to its The third amendment seeks to restrict logical conclusion, you will find the present redistributions to intervals of not less than system does what you set out to achieve in 10 years. Superficially this might appear your remarks; it protects the rights of to have some merit in giving members people. an opportunity to become familiar with their districts and the districts to become The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: It familiar with the members, but if there is is obvious that we have different concep- in a number of different localities a tre- tionr as to what are rights. if there is mendous movement of population, be it -some change necessary in connection with increase or decrease, surely it is necessary the Electoral Districts Act, there are some that something should be done about it. things more fundamental than those con- If there were some terrific gold find, as tained in this Bill, because the Government happened some 60 years ago, I venture to of the day felt that it was--I hope that I suggest in a very short time there would -am not doing it an injustice-best to be many thousands of people where pre- declare the metropolitan area following viously they could be counted on one's certain lines. That does not mean, either fingers. at that time or now, that that was a, proper definition of the metropolitan area. it would mean that the electorate would be entitled-notwithstanding that the Mr. Bovell: It was Parliament that did quota was, say, 4,500 and contained 15,000 it, not the G~overnment. or 20,000 people, as well it might-to no 2318 2318[ASSEMBLY.] more representation. Surely that is un- system which gives the North-West the fair! It ties up to my remarks on an representation it enjoys today in the State earlier Bill. Whilst we might agree to this Parliament. 10-year provision-and I am not suggest- Mr. Ross Hutchinson: He was speak- ing the Government does-it will be opera- ing tive so long as there is a Labour Govern- with his tongue in his cheek. ment, but if by some mischance there were Mr. BOVELL,: The members concerned a Liberal-Country Party Government oc- are singularly quiet, but if they analyse cupying the Treasury Benches- the position they will see it is not in the best interests of the State of Western Aus- Mr. Ross Hutchinson: Good chance. tralia to have a scheme-as I understand The MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT: - the Minister advocated-similar to the with a majority in this Chamber and in Commonwealth, where electorates are ap- another place, and in a position to gain proximately the same numerical strength. some political advantage; and if after four, The Minister for Transport: Just as five or 10 years of its being passed there well I made my own speech and did not had been a movement of population to leave it for you to make it. give an electoral advantage, I have no hesitation in hazarding a guess that a Mr. BOVELL: I am commenting on Bill designed to delete the figure 10 for what the Minister had to say. The second the purpose of inserting a lesser period Provision deals with the redistribution of would receive the unanimous blessing of seats at intervals of not less than 10 years. the non-Labour members of both Houses. Here again the Minister quoted the Mur- Therefore, chison coming within one mile of the town this will not be a matter of hail at Kalgoorlie. I 'would say-I am quota so far as rival parties are concerned, not replying to the Minister but want to nor a matter of quota If an electorate make some comment on what he said- becomes well-nigh denuded of electors that if a gold rush was experienced or and has the same representation as perhaps oil was discovered and there was it had when it had a full quota and an- a flight of population to one area, Parlia- other electorate is bursting at the seams ment would still be functioning and any with an excess of electors. Whilst I have amendments necessary could be made in spoken a bit longer than the Leader of accordance with conditions which applied the Country Party did in introducing the at that Particular time. measure, I will ask the House to vote against the measure. The third amendment, Would prevent an election being held until 1962. 1 see the Purport of the Leader of the Country MR. BOVELL (Vasse) [10.371: As ex- Party, as we have had two redistributions plained by the Leader of the Country Party in the Past few years, and perhaps iftould and the Minister for Transport, the Bill be in the best interests of good and stable contains three proposed alterations to the government to allow for a period during Electoral Districts Act. The first one which electorates may be static. I feel would give any surplus fractional quota the Hill is worthy of consideration, and I to the country districts. I must say support the second reading. that I was surprised at the Minis- On motion by Mr. Owen, debate ad- ter's statements in drawing a com- journed. __ parison between the Commonwealth sys- tern of equal voting and the present House adjourned at 10.42 Pi. State system. We have an entirely differ- ent Government from that of the Com- monwealth. and I do not know what the Minister's colleagues, 'who come from the North-West, would think of the position if, under the State redistribution, we had a situation similar to that relating to the Commonwealth. How would the North- WVest fare? As a matter of fact, I would say that the three electorates of the North-West- Kimuberley, Pilbara. and Gascoyne-in- cluding the electorate of Murchison and the electorate of Geraldton, would com- prise one electorate. These electorates are all represented by members supporting the Government. Whilst they are all sup- Porting the Government. I would not agree to any-at the moment anyhow-restric- tion of representation from the North- West. If ever a district wants representa- tion it is the North-West and yet the Min- ister, in his own words, condemns the