Vol. 711 Thursday No. 84 4 June 2009

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Questions Schools: Head Teachers Holocaust Assets Justice: Sharia Law North Korea Business of the House Motion on Standing Orders Business of the House Timing of Debates Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2009 Motion to Refer to Grand Committee Creative Industries Debate Science, Technology and Engineering Debate Public Service Broadcasting (Communications Committee Report) Motion to Take Note Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page

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© Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2009, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ 291 Schools: Head Teachers[4 JUNE 2009] Schools: Head Teachers 292

Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, the noble House of Lords Baroness is right. Getting the right leadership team at the top of a school is very important. Obviously, that Thursday, 4 June 2009. is a challenge in some smaller schools and faith schools. However, we are working through the NCSL with 11 am local authorities to promote succession planning, and we know that the programme is starting to reap results. Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Norwich. So I think that the noble Baroness makes a good point. Schools: Head Teachers Question Lord Dubs: My Lords, to inject an element of party politics into the questions, is it not true that under this 11.06 am Government primary schools have improved enormously? Therefore, they are more popular and more parents Asked By Baroness Perry of Southwark want their children to go to them, which will shortly be reflected in an increased number of excellent heads. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they will take to increase the number of suitable Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, I am applicants for school headships. delighted to do so. Let us be absolutely clear about this: we have invested in more schools, we have better The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, school property, we have more teachers than ever Department for Children, Schools and Families (Baroness before and we have better results than ever before. I Morgan of Drefelin): My Lords, in 2007, we asked the am optimistic that more teachers than ever before National College for School Leadership to develop a would like to go forward and become head teachers. succession planning strategy to ensure that we have a sufficient number of suitable applicants for headship. Baroness Verma: My Lords, what is the cost to her That work is undertaken locally through local authorities department and to local authorities of schools having and faith bodies and tailored to specific needs. The to employ large numbers of temporary agency staff? National Professional Qualification for Headship ensures that new heads have the right skills for the job. We shall launch the new Accelerate to Headship programme Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, it might next year. be difficult to pinpoint that exact figure. The important thing we need to look at is the vacancy rates. The vacancy rates for the maintained sector have remained Baroness Perry of Southwark: My Lords, I thank stable at below 1 per cent. That is very important the Minister for that reply and for the good news that because the demographic change in the headship she has given. The evidence from Professor Howson’s population is a challenge. By 2020, 55 per cent of the research at Warwick shows that one in five of our current head teacher workforce could be looking at schools has had to readvertise for headships and that retirement, so there is a specific challenge. We have schools are having great difficulty in recruiting. Does invested £30 million in our succession planning strategy. she agree with the two head teacher associations, which have said that the reason for this is that there have been so many changes from the Government over The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, I salute the education and that heads suffer from bureaucracy, Government’s investment in teachers over the years. Is workload and expectations? the Minister aware of the excellent support offered to groups of head teachers—highly valued by them—by the child psychotherapist Emil Jackson based at the Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, I often Brent Centre for Young People? May I write to her on agree with the unions on many matters. However, we his work? have a significant demographic challenge around the numbers of heads who are approaching their entitlement to retirement. There are important demographic issues Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, I should here. We should find hope in the fact that the NCSL’s be very grateful to receive such a letter. headship indicator in 2008 showed that 151,000 teachers—35 per cent—have the ambition to become Baroness Shephard of Northwold: My Lords, will heads. While we have a really major challenge in the Minister give her view on the arrangements made securing enough heads, there is a great deal of hope in Kent of federations with so-called superheads heading for the future in these people coming forward. up groups of schools, which obviously facilitate the overseeing of head teachers being trained up in such Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, the matter is very schools? I think it is a very good arrangement. Does complex, but does the Minister agree that part of it the Minister agree? must be proper career progression? In other words, we must make it worth while for teachers to seek promotion Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, I agree into the management team, where they can get experience with the noble Baroness’s analysis. We need to be and take some of the responsibilities of head teachers ambitious, flexible and creative about developing the and then be supported properly when they do the future population of heads by ensuring that schools leadership qualification. work together, work in partnership and use mentoring, 293 Schools: Head Teachers[LORDS] Holocaust Assets 294

[BARONESS MORGAN OF DREFELIN] The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth and that local authorities are activated about the Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): My Lords, I can confirm innovative solutions to which she refers. We have to that the United Kingdom will be represented at the have a flexible approach. Holocaust Era Assets Conference which will be hosted by the Czech Republic in Prague on 26-30 June this Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall: My Lords, going year. back to the questions of the noble Baronesses, Lady Walmsley and Lady Shephard, how are current head Baroness Deech: My Lords, I thank the Minister for teachers being encouraged to make both time and that assurance. Is he aware that there are some elderly resources available for existing members of their British Holocaust survivors who have tried in vain to management teams to engage in personal development recover some part of the property that they once activities? On the whole, teachers are hard-pressed and owned in Poland? Will he ensure that our delegation finding time for these personal development courses is focuses on the failure of the Polish Government, alone pretty difficult. among European nations, to enact any restitution law relating to property seized by Nazis and communists Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, as the despite repeated undertakings and obligations owed noble Baroness knows, the Government take very under European and international law—this after 20 years seriously the need to tackle teacher workload. We of democracy? recognise that head teacher workload particularly remains high. I am encouraged that, following the work done Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, the noble Baroness around the national agreement with our social partners, is quite right that Poland lags behind other countries we have seen a reduction in the average weekly working in this regard. We have been regularly lobbying the hours. Part of this is about making sure that there are Polish Government on this point. We understand that new entitlements for protected time for such matters a draft law on restitution is under discussion by the as concentrating on leadership and management and Polish Council of Ministers, which is expected to go to guaranteed time for planning and preparation of teaching their parliament later this year. I assure the noble work where head teachers still have a teaching load. A Baroness that we will continue to lobby for its lot of hard work is being done to give head teachers implementation. protected time for their responsibilities and to reduce the overall average weekly working hours. Lord Howarth of Newport: My Lords, I declare an interest as a trustee of the Foundation for International Cultural Diplomacy. Is it the Government’s intention Lord Elton: My Lords, does the Minister agree that to work towards the establishment of a regime of the skills required for teaching in a school and for international law that would enable the resolution of running a big school are very different and require cross-border disputes about cultural property on a different people to do them. What are the Government consistent and effective basis as an improvement on doing about making the career path easier for teachers the present hodgepodge of national jurisdictions which who are not terribly good at teaching but very good at so often renders a just solution impossible? administering? At the moment, it seems to be the academics who normally come to the top. Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, my noble friend makes an interesting point; if it is not our intention, I Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, we have suspect that it should be. I would like to look into this done a number of things. One of the most important further, but he is quite right that there are currently a has been developing the role of support workers in lot of different jurisdictions through which people schools, such as the school bursar, to ensure that head must work to try to achieve restitution. The system teachers can concentrate on the leadership of teaching does not offer even, transparent justice for these claims. and learning in a school. As the noble Lord suggests, we must ensure that we allow school staff to play to Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, will the Minister their strengths and deliver to the best of their abilities. accept that we on this side of the House strongly support the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Holocaust Assets Deech? Does he agree that it may not be fully appreciated that this conference is not just about Jewish, but also Question non-Jewish, claimants? It is not just about property seized by the Nazis and their German supporters in 11.15 am the Second World War without restitution, but also Tabled by Baroness Deech property seized or held by the communists and not returned to the original claimants. Will the Minister To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the ensure that our strong delegation is instructed to press United Kingdom will be represented at the Holocaust Poland hard, and to press the general point that the Era Assets Conference to be hosted by the Czech most ghastly event of the 20th century—maybe of all Republic in Prague. time—is never forgotten?

Baroness Deech: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, I completely endorse Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. I what the noble Lord has said. This is an important declare a possible interest, in that there might be a conference and we are sending a large delegation. It is claim by members of my family. the latest in a series of conferences, the first of which 295 Holocaust Assets[4 JUNE 2009] Justice: Sharia Law 296 was held here in London and which was followed by to send a Minister, we will, but at the moment it an important one in Washington in 1998. We must appears that most delegations will be led at the senior keep the momentum moving forward and, as the official level. noble Lord rightly says, we must not forget that what spurred this was that most horrific of events, the Baroness Neuberger: My Lords, as somebody who Holocaust. has benefited indirectly from compensation paid by Germany to my mother, who was a refugee, I know Lord Lee of Trafford: My Lords, thinking of our that it made an enormous difference to how she felt own obligations here, with all-party support, Andrew about the land of her birth, although she was a very Dismore’s Holocaust (Stolen Art) Restitution Bill has proud British citizen. Will the Minister assure the reached Public Bill Committee stage. I declare an House that today, which is the 20th anniversary of interest as chairman of the Association of Leading democracy in Poland, he will make representations to Visitor Attractions, members of which include virtually the Polish Government, as we have heard that there all the museums and galleries named in the Bill. will be legislation next year or later this year—we have The Bill only covers England and Wales. Can the heard that before—that this Government hope to see noble Lord tell us how discussions with the Scottish the relevant legislation passed in Poland? Executive are proceeding? Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, as I said, we are Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, as the noble Lord making representations but, given that 20th anniversary, knows, the UK Government support the Bill. To be I take this opportunity to say for the record that we honest, I am not aware of where it stands with the hope the Polish Government will finally do the right Scottish Executive, and I will get back to him on that. thing on this.

Lord Janner of Braunstone: My Lords, Britain has Justice: Sharia Law led the way and made great efforts to achieve the implementation of the 11 Washington conference Question principles formulated in 1998. We should not forget 11.22 am that the late Robin Cook, who was then our Foreign Secretary, was hugely instrumental in building the Asked By Lord Pearson of Rannoch initial 1997 restitution conference in London, which I To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they attended. What steps will Her Majesty’s Government support the implementation of Sharia Law in the now take at this month’s Holocaust Era Assets Conference United Kingdom. in Prague to encourage other countries to follow Britain’s lead in implementing these principles? Does my noble The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry friend consider that these should be achieved by the of Justice (Lord Bach): My Lords, Sharia law is not conference and, if so, how? part of the law of the United Kingdom and the Government have no intention of making any change Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, we hope that the to that position. force of the delegation we send, which may even include my noble friend, will ensure that we are able to Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, I thank the carry this agenda forward. As he indicated, its roots lie noble Lord for that reply which, however, suggests in the original conference organised here in London in that the Government may be disturbingly complacent 1997. A number of issues have been tabled for the about the fact that Sharia law is incompatible with the meeting, which I think everyone involved agrees is a values and law of this country, as it denies not only watershed meeting. We have to get closure, because a equality before the law between men and women, number of claimants are very elderly, and this may be Muslim and non-Muslim, but also freedom of religion. the last chance for some to make a successful claim. So, first, will the noble Lord give your Lordships a clear assurance that Sharia law will never be allowed Lord Higgins: My Lords, as I served on the Claims to take precedence over British law? Secondly, and for Resolution Tribunal for Dormant Accounts in instance, will Her Majesty’s Government take steps to Switzerland, which was very successful in finding the ensure that resident Muslim men will no longer be rightful owners of the assets, may I suggest that the allowed to commit bigamy by bringing in their second, experience of that tribunal may be relevant if progress third and fourth wives and all their children to enjoy is made in this case? the benefits of our welfare state?

Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, I will certainly Lord Bach: My Lords, I shall repeat myself: Sharia take that point under close advisement. law has no jurisdiction in England and Wales. We do not intend to change that position. Regardless of Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, in view of the religious belief, we are all equal before the law. We importance of the conference, will the Minister attend cannot prevent individuals seeking to regulate their it? If not, which Minister will? lives through religious beliefs or cultural tradition. Communities and other groups have the option to use Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, we are watching religious councils or any other system of alternative with interest to see at what level delegations will be led. dispute resolution and agree to abide by their decisions. I have other commitments on those dates. If we need Nothing in the law in England and Wales prevents 297 Justice: Sharia Law[LORDS] North Korea 298

[LORD BACH] Lord Bach: My Lords, the noble Lord sets out a people abiding by Sharia principles if they wish, provided problem that undoubtedly exists, but any decision that their actions do not conflict with the law in made by anybody that is outside English law cannot England and Wales. If they do, the law in England and stand against English law. For example, if consent is Wales prevails. sought for some issue around children or family assets, the English courts decide. Other councils—not courts— Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, is the noble can make an agreement, if the parties themselves want Lord aware that Shaykh Siddiqi, the chairman of the to. That applies across the board, but always behind governing council of the Muslim Arbitration Tribunal, that is the fact that those agreements cannot be enforced tells us that six cases of domestic violence have been except by an English court. dealt with by it resulting in anger management classes being ordered against men but with the women then Baroness Warsi: My Lords, can the Minister confirm dropping their complaints to the police and the police whether the Government, and specifically their officials investigations ceasing? Does the Minister agree that connected with the area, are appropriately aware of that is highly undesirable, and that women should be the distinction between Sharia and Sharia law? Are properly advised on their rights when they come before Muslim arbitration tribunals engaged in the adjudication these tribunals? of dispute resolution in the spirit of Sharia, or in the implementation of Sharia law as an alternative to Lord Bach: My Lords, my understanding was that English law? the Muslim Arbitration Tribunal, which works only under the Arbitration Act 1996, did not deal with Lord Bach: My Lords, the Muslim Arbitration Tribunal matters involving crime or family law. Sharia councils may apply Sharia law only, and I emphasise only, if can deal with matters under family law, but of course the disputing parties expressly agree in all arbitrations either party can get consent from the family courts in that decisions will be enforceable by the English and this country. That consent will not easily be given to Welsh courts and the requirements of the Arbitration any arrangement that is not satisfactory. The noble Act 1996 are satisfied. If any decisions by these tribunals Lord will also know what huge advances have been were illegal or contrary to public policy under the law made by the courts in terms of domestic violence and in England and Wales, they would simply not be the practice direction that the president put out in enforceable. As I understand it, the Muslim Arbitration 2008. Tribunal deals largely with civil matters between two parties who agree that the decision of the arbitration Baroness Cox: My Lords, is the Minister aware that tribunal will stand. If one of the parties then breaks Sharia family courts and councils were introduced the agreement, the course would be to go to the into Canada at the request of local Muslim community English courts to make sure that the matter is put right. leaders, but were subsequently withdrawn and proscribed when women were allowed proper consultation? Many North Korea of those women argued that they had gone to Canada precisely to flee Sharia provisions. Will there be Question opportunity for similar adequate and comprehensive consultation with all women on the issue in this country? 11.30 am Asked By Lord Alton of Liverpool Lord Bach: My Lords, we very much intend that that should be the position. The most practical and To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions effective way of ensuring that the vulnerable are protected they have had with the Governments of China and is to encourage the registration of mosques and imams Russia to encourage a united response to the decision for the purpose of carrying out marriages that comply of the North Korean Government to conduct an with and will be recognised under the Marriage Act. underground nuclear explosion, to fire six short-range We are working to achieve that and to raise awareness, missiles, and to revoke the truce that ended the particularly among Muslim women, of the formalities Korean War in 1953. required for a legally recognised marriage in England and Wales. I am grateful to the noble Baroness for Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, I beg leave to sending me helpful material before that question was ask the Question standing in my name on the Order asked. Paper. In doing so, I declare a non-financial interest as chairman of the All-Party British-North Korea Lord Tebbit: My Lords, the Minister sets out the Parliamentary Group. legal position very well, and I am sure that we all absolutely support him in that. However, does he The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth recollect that, a few years ago in the East End of Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): My Lords, we are working London, there was a system of arbitration of disputes with UN Security Council partners including China run by the Kray brothers? Is he not aware that extreme and Russia to secure a robust resolution in response to pressure is put on vulnerable women to go through a the nuclear test carried out by the DPRK on 25 May. form of arbitration that results in them being virtually This includes action in New York as well as in capitals. precluded from access to British law? That is a difficult What has happened is a breach of UN Security Council matter, I know, but how does he think that we can help Resolution 1718 and we have strongly condemned the those who are put in that position? DPRK Government for their action. The DPRK’s 299 North Korea[4 JUNE 2009] North Korea 300 decision to fire short-range missiles and the threat to Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, we appreciate “rip up” the 1953 armistice agreement is provocative very much the expertise of the noble Lord, Lord and will further damage regional stability. Alton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, on North Korea and the point about the need for twin tracks. Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, I am grateful to However, have we not now reached the point where the Minister for that reply. Does he recall that, when the six-party diplomacy has been brutally rebuffed by the armistice was signed in 1953 at the end of the North Korea, which clearly has no intention of abiding Korean War, 3 million people had died, including by it at all? On the stick side of greater pressures, we 1,000 British servicemen? Did he note the figures from should be mobilising and helping with the responsible the report that my noble friend Lady Cox and I sent to efforts made by China and Russia, because they are him following our visit there in February of this year the countries that will be most hurt by North Korea that the United Nations estimates that some 400,000 continuing on its wild course. Does the noble Lord people have been executed by the regime, that 200,000 accept that now really is the time to think about far are in the camps and that 2 million Koreans died in greater examination of North Korean cargos and shipping, North Korea during the 1990s as a result of the much more effort to stop North Korean arms exports famine? Should not North Korea’s decision last week and even travel bans on North Koreans so that serious to revoke the 1953 armistice underline the urgent need pressure is imposed on this horrid little country? for a concerted effort to prevent a repetition of a major war and the inevitable exodus of refugees into Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, first, China and China—that is certainly disturbing the minds of Chinese Russia are very engaged at the moment in crafting a diplomats at present—and for engagement in a Helsinki- sanctions resolution in New York and they are very style process? In the present dangerous climate, would much taking the lead in advising on which sanctions not a declaration by the United States of a willingness steps are practical to take and which, in the eyes of to establish a diplomatic presence, as we have done in China in particular, might further aggravate the situation Pyongyang, and of the need to create a treaty to end and become a casus belli that would further escalate the war be the first steps in a Helsinki-style process of the situation. I think that we have to defer to China’s engagement? judgment, in particular, on some of this because, as was said earlier, it is the country that would receive the Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, the noble Lord influx of refugees and be most hit by a collapse of the and the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, made an important regime or a renewed war. Secondly, yes, we need to hit report after they returned from North Korea, which hard against this provocation, but we also need to emphasised the need, as the noble Lord has done remember that there is a pattern to this. Missile and again in his Question, to balance the sticks of sanctions even nuclear tests have happened repeatedly and therefore against the carrots of diplomatic engagement. the need for engagement remains important. Even Fundamentally, that remains the right twin track. Henry Kissinger, in an article yesterday, recommended Obviously, in the face of such extraordinary provocation that we try to keep the diplomatic track alive. by the regime and such a direct threat to regional stability, this is perhaps not the moment to be talking about the Helsinki engagement track. There must be a Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, perhaps on firm response, but over time we must return to this day it might be appropriate to ask the Minister engagement, because this is in every sense an outlaw whether he agrees that North Korea, together with regime, which is doing appalling things to its citizens Burma, is the most sovereign country in the world, outside the limelight of global public opinion. that UKIP members would clearly be happy to move there and that other countries have compromised their Baroness Cox: My Lords, is the Minister aware sovereignty by international co-operation to a much that, while we are meeting here this morning, two greater level. Having said that, I ask him to explain to journalists are on trial in Pyongyang, having been us how we cope with a country that clearly depends on arrested on the border with China after reporting on paranoia about the outside world to maintain its the flow of refugees into China and the terrible fate sovereignty. Is there any way that we, together with awaiting those who are forcibly returned, who are other countries, can promote cultural dialogue, with regularly imprisoned and tortured? Can he inform the visits of one sort of another, to demonstrate that the House whether our excellent ambassador in Pyongyang outside world is not a threat to North Koreans and is monitoring that trial and working with other members that the hostile approach to the outside world that of the international community to try to ensure that keeps them going is self-defeating for them as well as those journalists are not used as political pawns in the for us? present confrontation over nuclear issues? Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, there is a balance Lord Malloch-Brown: My Lords, let me reassure the between trying to keep engagement going and not noble Baroness that we certainly are monitoring the allowing the regime to use its provocations and our trial and have been following it closely. I think that reaction to feed its political base via paranoia. Ensuring Europe—not Britain alone—has some role as a bridge that engagement keeps the lights on in the country is builder in the context of the DPRK, but we should key. We were continuing English language training not consider our influence to be more important than there, for example, and we continue to support the UN it is. This is a situation where the so-called contact in its development and technical assistance programmes, group of six—the five outsiders being neighbours, but equally we cannot allow North Korea or the world with the exception of the US—probably has more to believe that this kind of flagrant threat to international direct influence on these issues than we do. peace can be left unanswered. 301 Business of the House[LORDS] Creative Industries 302

Business of the House April, the business Secretary, the noble Lord, Lord Mandelson, acknowledged the contribution of the Motion on Standing Orders creative industries to Britain’s economy and said that it was central to ensuring the future success of the 11.38 am country. Moved By Lord Hunt of Kings Heath I shall continue for a moment with statistics. For That Standing Order 41 (Arrangement of the most of them, I am indebted to the National Campaign Order Paper) be dispensed with on Thursday 11 June for the Arts, the UK’s only independent lobbying to allow the Motion in the name of Lord Tyler to organisation representing all the arts, cross-party, cross- be taken before the Motion in the name of Lord culture and, as its president, I can say always across Bradshaw. the subject. Moreover, it is worth hammering away for a few Motion agreed. moments because there is still a stolid, ostrich, unimaginative conviction that the arts are somehow Business of the House whimsical, marginal and verging on the dismissible. It is rumoured that even some of those in government Timing of Debates still hold to that view. The industrial fact, to use the Moved By Lord Hunt of Kings Heath devil’s argument, is that the creative industries in this country have outstripped, and will continue to outstrip That the debates on the Motions in the names of even those ancient and venerable giants that powered Lord Bragg and Lord Haskel set down for today and traumatised this country through the industrial shall each be limited to two and a half hours. revolution. Motion agreed. In 1997, our creative economy accounted for less than 4 per cent of UK gross value-added. In 2007, it stood at 7.3 per cent, having grown at 6 per cent per Environmental Permitting (England and annum compared with 3 per cent for the rest of the Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2009 economy. The UK has the largest creative sector in the Motion to Refer to Grand Committee EU and, relative to GDP, probably in the world. It employs a host of golden specialists who can and do Moved By Lord Hunt of Kings Heath travel the world with their crafts, works, books, music That the draft regulations be referred to a Grand and arts, like roving European medieval scholars. Regarded Committee. as a sideshow by some, the overall impact of British theatre alone is £26 billion annually from a subsidy of Motion agreed. £120 million. The musicals of the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd-Webber, Creative Industries and Sir Cameron Mackintosh, for example, spin around the globe like Ariel in “The Tempest” and bring in Debate profits simply unheard of in any other age. These two men started out as kids on the block doing the thing 11.40 am they loved but they were hugely aided by the cultural Moved By Lord Bragg density in this country and, with that help have become creators and supporters of highly specialised skills as To call attention to the contribution of the creative well as writers, composers and producers of world industries to the United Kingdom economy; and to renown in their own right. move for Papers. Inside these statistics are individuals or very small Lord Bragg: My Lords, I think that I shall wait a groups who form an astonishingly modern cultural moment until the select few have gathered. I am grateful collective. Curiously enough, this is very like the way to have been given the chance to mount this debate. I in which the first industrial revolution—the mechanised hope that it will prove once and for all that the creative industrial revolution, probably the greatest revolution industries in this country are the flagship and the most of all time—got under way. Talented, pig headed, powerful identifying characteristic of what we in the brilliant individuals—mostly in the north of England— UK in the 21st century can do well both at home and followed their own obsessive path. I think that what abroad, and in the process enrich not only the economy we are seeing now is the first rocket stage of what will but the minds and imagination of people here and prove to be a creative cultural revolution that is perhaps around the world. just as radical and influential. A recent analysis by NESTA suggests that between Take as a small example the 6,000 employees in 2009 and 2013 the UK’s creative industries will grow Birmingham’s magnificently rejuvenated jewellery on average at 4 per cent per annum—more than double quarter—niche craftsmen who command a world clientele. the rate of the rest of the economy. By 2013 this sector They are joined at the hip with those northern inventors is expected to employ about 1.3 million people—more of the late 18th and 19th centuries. And we have a than the financial sector; it is likely that there will be good enabling history here. Our progress in the creative 180,000 creative businesses here compared with 148,000 arts is not a fluke: from the Committee for the today; and it is expected to contribute £85 billion Encouragement of Music and the Arts which came to UK value-added, up from £57 billion today. Last out of the Second World War; to Jennie Lee at the 303 Creative Industries[4 JUNE 2009] Creative Industries 304

Arts Council in the 1960s; to Sir John Major and the Home Office, the DCMS and all the other cultural noble Lord, Lord Gowrie, and the lottery funding—boon bodies impale these words on their notice boards and time throughout Britain; and on to the Labour websites. The arts in this country have always flourished Government who, since 1997, have put up funding by either in solitary confinement or when two or three are 73 per cent. gathered together in small clusters, in which individuals, Private support has grown too, through tax breaks a few like-minded individuals, have given us great and philanthropy, and now the sum is more than riches. It is a delicate balance to cultivate without £600 million a year. And of course there are shortcomings, crushing, but to achieve that balance is one of the and missed opportunities, and bureaucratic bungling, most important missions for the immediate future of and the constraints of philistinism, and the British the creative industries. sound of moan which is sometimes justified. But fair’s In my opinion, the way to kill the creative industries fair. There has been an overall success, even triumph, is to straitjacket them in regulations and subject them in culture and the arts during the past 15 or 20 years, to that influential new army of consultants who, and until very recently it has been one of our best kept bewilderingly, claim merit from starting with a clean secrets. slate—that is, knowing nothing about the subject. Speakers in this debate will wish to cover different Artists have their own slates and knowing about their parts of the territory. I see my role as giving the subject is their life’s work, so ask the artists who do the overview, and I shall concentrate on only two or three work. specific aspects. I stress again that although larger Of course, there is something to say about money. economic forces are at work and must continue to There always will be. Sir Christopher Frayling, who work for the creative industries—of course we need stood down as Arts Council chairman earlier this year art colleges and schools and academies for film, theatre and is still rector of the Royal College of Art, said and music; and we need structures such as the Arts recently: Council and overseeing agencies such as the DCMS; “Most of the big performing arts companies get about a third and we need the BBC, with its invaluable and massive of their funding from the Arts Council, a third from the box cultural presence; and other broadcasters, such as office and a third from merchandising or sponsorship. If government ITV, Channel 4 and now Sky Arts—in my opinion, money wobbles during a recession … that means the second this is at root the story of individuals. They must be two-thirds of the funding will fall away too, which could be disastrous for many companies”. allowed to breathe and flourish. Frayling’s successor at the Arts Council, Dame Liz My fear, as I read government initiatives now climbing Forgan, who has seen a small cut in comparative terms on what I hope I may be forgiven for calling the to the Arts Council budget, announced that an extra bandwagon, is that the weight, even the blight, of £445 million would be invested in during the next two bureaucracy will stifle the enterprise of those individuals. years specifically to help maintain artistic excellence Already in the past year or two, to take a small during the economic turndown. That is the good example, over-complex rules about the playing of live news: there are good hands on the tiller. music in pubs and clubs have threatened not only the seeding ground of our exceptionally successful popular Kevin Spacey, the artistic director of the Old Vic, is music culture, but ruined many people’s idea of a a remarkable and unusual example of success with a good night out. company that receives no public subsidy whatever. Despite that, he has put together not only an exceptional An even more harmful example of unintended programme inside the Old Vic, but a thrilling programme consequences of government regulation and interference of workshops, school projects and community productions was pointed out yesterday in the Times by Dame Joan involving literally thousands of children from low-income Bakewell, the chairman of NCA. She wrote: families who live just outside the Old Vic, in its immediate “The Home Office is making a mockery of Britain’s reputation”. neighbourhood. He wrote recently that, She wrote that immigration controls are proving so “the creative industries lead the UK economy and are the envy of unnecessarily difficult for artists from abroad, that the world. Having lived here for seven years, I genuinely believe they are turning away rather than waste time and that the UK’s pre-eminence in the arts and culture constitutes one money on our bureaucratic and complexities. She of the nation’s most powerful resources”. wrote that Solokov, the Russian pianist, lost patience Sometimes it is useful to see ourselves as others see us, and called off concerts at the Barbican and the Royal such as Kevin Spacey and his fellow American, the Festival Hall. The Iranian director of ENO’s “Cosi late Sam Wanamaker, who recreated the Globe and fan tutti” has not been admitted into the country. As gave us so much. Sir Richard Dearlove pointed out at the Hay Festival It would be flattering to ourselves to think that we last week, over-extensions of the Terrorism Act threaten had a natural and unique genius for the arts in this liberties elsewhere. For this country, a great international country, although perhaps there is something in that. centre for the arts and a refuge for some of the greatest More importantly, we have great traditions: first, in artists and musicians, to become a no-go area is surely some of the finest artists and examples of the past the unacceptable fact of a lack of joined-up government centuries, but also in our colleges and in the workplace thinking. Lord knows what they would have done at of theatres, orchestras and choirs. Perhaps even more the time of the industrial revolution if they had gone important than that, it is a living tradition regrouped north—probably strangle it at birth. and refreshed through generations by new generations, I fear the grasping claws of quangos. There is a fine and added to by them, and it goes on and on. The book on oral history by George Ewart Evans entitled recent surge has been greatly helped by more training Ask the Fellows Who Cut the Hay. I suggest that the and interest in schools, as we see in our classical music, 305 Creative Industries[LORDS] Creative Industries 306

[LORD BRAGG] halls of Cheltenham and Glasgow, the dome of Brighton which is so strong at the moment, and tracks back and the theatre of Salisbury and captivating towns through youth orchestras to school orchestras and and villages across the land from Southwold to Keswick, now even to primary school orchestras. One million from Bridport to Aldeburgh, from Ilkley to Chester to young people benefit from the YouthMusic programme, Bristol to Charleston. The land is alive with the voice and in the past few years more than 100 new arts of authors and the ever-growing involvement of readers. buildings have been opened and more than We cannot overlook the London factor. This city 500 refurbished. It is not only classical music. The now has a fair claim to be the greatest arts centre in whole brass band tradition is undergoing a renaissance. the world. The regiment of institutions lined up along We have the world’s leading brass band players among the South Bank make it the jewel in its crown. This our children. And on popular music in this country, gives us a creative churn of invaluable enriching well, where shall we begin? There is a breadth and interconnections. The centre of our theatre is here, as quality here unmatched anywhere outside the home of is our film and television industry, many of our great popular music, the USA, which has a five times bigger and fine small galleries, the concert halls, opera and population. ballet, exhibition spaces and, of course, museums, I want to draw attention to an even more fundamental some of which, such as the British Museum, have aspect of the creative arts. In the course of making a become works of art in themselves as well as housing recent “South Bank Show” film on the violinist Tamsin great art. This cannot be overestimated, and I would Little, we went with her to Gallions Primary School in stress again the influence of television, particularly in Newham, East London. She did several workshops drama and film, which feeds into the film and theatre with the children, and we filmed her performing with industries, irrigating and nourishing this metropolitan them. One of our team told me that the school is an garden of delights. inspiration. It opened eight years ago and took in Perhaps crucially, these industries extend the inner children from multiracial, multilingual and very difficult life, feed the energy for insights into a richer life and backgrounds, including sink estates. Nearly all the give people something like a faith in what is possible, children had failed in previous schools, and both they what is rare and what can be reached through imagination. and their parents were disillusioned with the concept They lead us not into the soulless automaton state of of education. To begin with, it was chaos, and the the old industrial revolution, but into the unexplored children were disruptive to the point of actually throwing treasures of the mind. the school furniture at each other. However, the staff In my view, the creative economy should be developed had all been recruited because of their arts expertise, and encouraged to the hilt. It is a proven performer, a and they developed an ethos of arts education that pillar of the cultural tourist trade, an educative and would have an impact on the children’s attainments, inspiring force for young people, a conduit of skills achievement and overall happiness. They obtained and self-confidence in schools, a high quality aggregation funding from JP Morgan and invested in musical of niche specialisms in a country which must develop instruments for the entire school. Every child studies such talents if it is to flourish, a source of gaiety to the music and plays an instrument. Within a week or two, nation, intellectual and spiritual profit, and a focus certainly within a month or two, behaviour improved, and stimulation of imagination to people who want to concentration improved and results across the board reach out for a greater private life through work which in other subjects improved. It has had the most lights up their private world. The creative industries extraordinary effect, and the school is a delight to are our new wealth and our new industrial enlightenment. visit. When Howard Goodall did a film for the programme I beg to move. some years ago about choirs in schools, he came back with exactly the same story. However, there now seems to be a reluctance to develop and build on this, and 11.55 am that is worrying. Narrowly focused studies lead only Lord Chadlington: My Lords, I am very grateful to to narrowly focused citizens. the noble Lord, Lord Bragg, for initiating this debate. All this has been hugely aided by the extension of He continues to make a great contribution to cultural free admission to some galleries and museums, a policy life in this country and his opening words reflect the driven through by my noble friend Lord Smith of breadth of that experience. Finsbury, who sadly cannot be here today. Visitor As I am sure the noble Lord would agree, the numbers have risen by 87 per cent, but for me one pivotal challenge in any creative enterprise is to manage further statistic stands out: since that happened, there the creative talent. That talent is sometimes difficult, has been a 21 per cent increase in visits from socio- usually arrogant, often self-important, but it is the economic groups C2, D and E, in short, people who engine of everything that we do. The best managers in would never have got there before, and some of them these industries are, unfortunately, also often difficult, too will become part of the bedrock. arrogant and self-important, and I declare the interest I must mention here the all-but-unimaginable rise of being one myself. in the numbers of festivals in all the arts, in music—of I have spent my entire working life managing creative course, with the BBC Proms, nonpareil on the planet, people in the media, marketing, PR, arts, advertising, and Glastonbury, too, in own way, but let us talk graphic design—all those kinds of activities—and I about the literary festivals. From a few rather lonely have bought and sold, downsized, upsized, and built outposts 20 or 30 years ago, we now have armies of and broken creative businesses in just about every part audiences in their hundreds of thousands marching to of the world. So this debate offers me the opportunity the tent cities of Hay and Edinburgh, taking the town to try to answer three interrelated questions which 307 Creative Industries[4 JUNE 2009] Creative Industries 308 have often puzzled me. First, what makes a good customer in the bull’s eye and everything is gathered manager of creative enterprise and talent? Secondly, around him. That is almost impossible to achieve as why does that talent rarely succeed when transferred companies grow, developing or inheriting different into the public—that is to say, government-supported— masters or stakeholders to whom management must arena? Thirdly, what can Government do to establish a answer—particularly Government! greater pool of such managers and, therefore, help in The fourth is meetings. We simply do not have that transition? them. We hate them. The best-run creative groups just First, what makes a brilliant manager of creative work with the people they like, in an atmosphere they people? I could recite a litany of character traits, but I like, in a way that they like. Meetings spoil all that. want to emphasise just three or four as they will lead Meetings are for suits and for accountants. Big public to answers to the other questions that I posed. First, organisations thrive on meetings. You have to have these managers have an obsessive dedication, focus them. You need to be accountable. and concentration on the activities of the enterprise. Finally, the ultimate bugbear: accountants, red tape Some managers make it all look so easy, but their and targets. It does not mean that they are wrong; it focus is absolute and demands 110 per cent of every just means that they establish an environment that is, minute of every day. Secondly, they believe, without or at least feels, counter-creative. remainder, in their own judgment. They cannot be Can we increase the number of these gifted managers wrong. They believe themselves to have an instinctive so that more chance their arm in the public sector? I understanding of what the customer wants and how have five observations for your Lordships to consider. the enterprise can be organised to respond to those First, most new creative businesses are SMEs. The needs. That umbilical chord between the customer and sources of risk equity and long-term capital for this the manager is absolute. That is why accountants can sector are drying up. This is the 1930s Macmillan gap very seldom manage creative people. Thirdly, this kind all over again. We must address this issue immediately, of manager, together with their creative partners, tears particularly since the recent banking collapse. up the rule book as they go. They break conventions. They establish new rules and new codes of business Secondly, these smaller businesses, as has already activity. been pointed out, are throttled by regulation: employment law, health and safety, and any amount of other If that originality is lost, the whole creative process legislation and red tape which is not only inappropriate begins to collapse and the enterprise becomes mediocre, but stifles growth and enterprise. with the inevitable loss of market differentiation. But Thirdly, tax issues in creative industries are all there is one space, as the noble Lord, Lord Bragg, about income and founder equity. To have top people pointed out, in which the manager and the creative working for more than 60 per cent of the year for the will often have guaranteed conflict—over money. So Government and facing a rise of 80 per cent in capital often, really creative people feel shackled by what they tax on equity will not encourage entrepreneurship. see as mundane financial constraints. Great managers of the creative process, however, believe exactly the Fourthly, we need London to be the global centre opposite: they believe that financial controls make for of all the creative industries. How can we attract more greater creativity and financial laxity for creative mayhem. and more people in this global, creative and digital If the skilled manager can get the creative to agree the world to make London the centre of their creative financial agenda, the enterprise can really sing. It is a businesses? golden place to find yourself. It rarely lasts for long, Finally, we should start in the schools and the but for a fleeting moment, the commercial music can universities, particularly the schools. We should look sound celestial. at the work of organisations such as the Enterprise So why have these managers such a poor record in Education Trust, which has 50,000 children up and public service? We can all think of some who have down the country involved in more than 1,000 business made it, but there are so many more who have failed appreciation courses. or who just have not bothered. Let me offer some As we recognise the importance of the creative possible reasons. The first is management style. A industries to our economy, our focus must also be on great manager gives the impression of providing free encouraging, motivating and rewarding those who rein to those who work for him, delegating authority successfully build and lead these creative enterprises. and managing with a light touch, with little attention They are not just the source of national wealth, they to soft issues such as time-keeping, dress code and so are the future of our state-owned creative industries on. In a large corporation, such light-touch management too. is almost impossible to achieve. The second is the rule book. I have about 1,600 12.03 pm creative people working for me at the moment, and Lord Roberts of Llandudno: My Lords, I appreciate every day we tear up the rule book at least once. In this opportunity to take part in what will be a very many of our businesses there appear to be no rule wide-ranging debate. The noble Lord, Lord Bragg, books at all, or at least the rules which apply to one has initiated it, and the noble Lord, Lord Chadlington, part of the group do not seem to apply to another. has opened a window that I never dreamt existed. To Public corporations are held together by rule books. make the most of this opportunity for a free-running Thirdly, in businesses our size, the customer—the Welshman to contribute from a Welsh angle, I shall user—is the centre of the organisation. There are no speak about a possible opportunity, and dilemma, for organisation charts; there is a dartboard, with the minority languages. 309 Creative Industries[LORDS] Creative Industries 310

[LORD ROBERTS OF LLANDUDNO] The national Eisteddfod not only gives opportunities Let us look first at the world of publishing in Wales. to people of all ages; it uncovers new talent. It is, as Some Wales-wide publications in the Welsh language— has been said, similar to festivals throughout the United long-standing newspapers and so on—have ceased Kingdom, but it also provides many opportunities for publication because of reduced advertising, falling people who may be having difficult times. It restores circulation, rising costs and myriad other things. Some their hope and confidence and contributes to the continue as inserts in English-language dailies, but the harmony of our communities. ordinary national Welsh-language paper has failed, I thoroughly enjoyed parts of “Britain’s Got Talent”. and efforts to establish a daily Welsh-language newspaper It was valuable because it introduced a massive viewer have been put on hold. What is happening in Wales is population—I am sure that is not the right way to that community newspapers reflect local life. In 60 areas describe it—to things like community groups such as in Wales we have Papurau Bro, community newspapers the street dancers, Flawless and Diversity. If their run by volunteers which have circulations of 1,000, influence can now spread to other communities and 2,000 or 3,000 and which make a definite and effective young people, that will be a tremendous benefit to us. contribution to the life of their localities. The programme even gave my granddaughter an idea—I As for book publishing, I spoke this morning to a have seven grandchildren, at the last count. She saw publisher and also to the Welsh Books Council. With this grandfather and granddaughter competing, and a budget of only £1.3 million for investment in Welsh- next I had a phone call: was I willing to enter “Britain’s language book publishing, it is questionable whether a Got Talent” with her next year? If the House is single Welsh-language book could be published in abolished I might have time on my hands, and we will many areas. We are so dependent on grants, through be able to have an alternative career. the Welsh Books Council, from the Welsh National Then we come to the third Eisteddfod, Llangollen. Assembly. However, many people help to support the I speak as a vice-president of that international music Welsh-language input, and we have the value of the festival. Formed in 1946, its motto is, “Blessed is a printed word itself. We also have the various Welsh- world that sings; gentle are its songs”. Through language websites to which many thousands of people music and dance you are able to bring people together. turn every day. But there is a flipside to that. Because I often think that if you can laugh or sing together, they are reading on the web, as I do, many publications— that is a massive step forward. Pavarotti started his the ordinary books and magazines—do not succeed. career at the festival; the Vienna Boys’ Choir became The noble Lord, Lord Bragg, mentioned the free world-famous there. I hope—and the Government admission to museums and art galleries. I am delighted might be able to move on this quickly—that new to say that it was the Government in Cardiff—led by a immigration rules will not hinder applications from friend of mine, Jenny Randerson, who was the Minister outside the European Union for people, choirs and at the time—who first introduced free admission in dance groups to participate in festivals of this sort. the United Kingdom. As has been said, it has succeeded Edinburgh and other places are also facing a possible in bringing in many people who never before would dilemma here. I remember the battle we had over the have visited that kind of building. Watoto children from Kampala—but they are singing Wales is known as the land of rugby. I am not in the Parliament next week, so at least we have asking for a subsidy for Welsh rugby; I do not think overcome that hurdle. that we need it at present. It is also known as the land The contribution is not only in money but in people. of song, but I am not sure that that is always true. If It provides dignity and confidence in difficult times; it you listened to me sing, you would not say it. builds communities and gives hope where there is little We have heard mention of the Hay festival, but we of it. That is why the sort of projects and festivals that have not yet heard mention of the three major Eisteddfods, I have outlined are immensely important for the well-being or Eisteddfodau, that we have in Wales. They are of our country. major cultural events for the Welsh community. The Urdd Eisteddfod was held in Cardiff last week, and some 45,000 Welsh youngsters were involved in activities 12.12 pm leading up to it. The Urdd Eisteddfod encourages Baroness Young of Hornsey: My Lords, I, too, schools and young people, and by developing the thank the noble Lord, Lord Bragg, for securing this dimensions of song, dance and the spoken and written debate and for his powerfully delivered overview of word, we all benefit from it immensely. For older the creative sector, as well as for his long-term pioneering children—those in the sixth forms of our schools who commitment to high-quality arts and cultural have uncertain futures and limited employment programming, of which “The South Bank Show” is prospects—this cultural dimension keeps their hopes just one example. I also thank Louise de Winter from alive. the National Campaign for the Arts and Clare Cooper In the 1930s there was horrendous unemployment from Mission, Models, Money for briefings, discussions in Wales—in Merthyr Tydfil, 60 per cent of the population and ideas. The NCA is an independent organisation, were without a job—and yet the choirs and the bands as the noble Lord has stated. Mission, Models, Money continued. The valleys of unemployment were also the is also independent, producing debates and action valleys of music, and that kept hope alive. So we must research projects that provoke fresh thoughts about make certain that nothing hinders this dimension of sustaining the arts. Both are effective, fleet-footed, our culture. Through the arts, music and so on, we can creative organisations that stimulate thoughts, and keep hope alive until better economic times dawn they have an influence far greater than their size would upon us. suggest was possible. 311 Creative Industries[4 JUNE 2009] Creative Industries 312

At this point I should declare several interests, are all facing. I want to say something in this regard mainly to do with being on the boards of various arts about the creative, designer end of the fashion industry, organisations including the Southbank Centre, the not an area historically associated with social responsibility. Nitro theatre company and the National Archives. I First, I again declare an interest as I am in the process also chair a new group set up by the Commonwealth of looking into setting up an APPG on ethical fashion. Foundation on culture and development. This is a very broad term, indicating clothing and The noble Lord, Lord Bragg, has helpfully covered accessories produced using renewable fabrics, chemical-free all the statistics, so I will not go into them again. The dyes, organic materials or taking into consideration creative industries, as defined by DCMS, cover a wide the people involved in the production of the garments range of creative endeavour, including music, film, and the humane treatment of animals. television, radio, architecture and designer fashion, I have been speaking to several people recently who which is a subject to which I will return. care passionately about the subject. Increasingly, awareness is being raised within the industry about its responsibilities Although for the purpose of policy or debate we in terms of its environmental impact, exploitative might wish to make a distinction between the arts, employment and trading practices, and animal welfare. museums, archives and libraries and the creative industries, Awareness-raising among the public is crucial, as is or indeed between the subsidised and commercial encouraging a different approach to fashion, rejecting sectors, in truth the boundaries are permeable and a high turnover of goods that are produced cheaply by constantly shifting. Art, cultural and creative activities exploited labour and which have a negative environmental are interdependent, as are the publicly subsidised and impact. commercial sectors. At times the categories are indistinguishable and may co-exist in the same Because this debate is about the creative industries, organisation, as when a play produced by an Arts I am referring to designer clothing—an issue in itself, Council-funded theatre transfers to the West End and as of course it tends to be out of the price range of later to Broadway, and is made into a film that is then most people. But it is important because designers broadcast on television. So public investment in the increasingly work across a range of markets, with the arts has been and will continue to be essential to the likes of high-end designers such as Matthew Williamson success of Britain’s creative industries. and Stella McCartney creating clothing for the high street. What they do and how they work is reported on Even though the focus in this debate is on the extensively in glossy magazines and consumed by a economy, we should not forget the important contribution great many people, particularly young women. that creative expression can make to social, community and cultural development, a point that has been alluded The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, launched to. Put simply, there is no point in being economically Defra’s sustainable clothing action plan at the start of successful if people are unhappy and do not have February’s London Fashion Week; colleagues in the ready access to an expressive, full, creative life. Such industry tell me that his catwalk performance was very values are especially important in these difficult times, much appreciated and highly rated. It is an admirable when financial and moral orthodoxies seem on the document with much to recommend it. In particular, point of collapse. it lives up to its title, because it is about action, not just words. Mission, Models, Money has turned its thoughts to the kind of questions with which many of us who Cross-departmental co-operation really adds value work in the sector are concerned. For example, what to this type of project. Although the plan has been new knowledge, skills and competencies do creative generated by Defra, the DCMS, DfID, the Department organisations and individuals need to develop to be for Innovation, Universities and Skills and other able to thrive in the next decade or so? How do we departments have, or should have, active roles in ensuring support the sector to operate effectively in a new that this initiative is given the best chance of being environment where potential investors are ever more successful in the long term. risk-averse—a real problem for a sector that is, by its I make this point about fashion partly because nature, risk-taking? What tools can we develop to help many see it as frivolous, trivial and a conscience-free us to optimise digital communications technologies, zone. But the number and quality of organisations which redraw or erase boundaries—boundaries between that have signed up to the actions demonstrate the communities, cultures and nations, between audience importance and economic significance of the market. and producer, and between cultural forms? What are Larger companies that have signed up, such as Tesco, the new economic structures that promote more Sainsbury and Marks & Spencer, are well known and sustainable lifestyles? That is an important point for have the resources and clout to make an impact, but me. If there is really going to be a shift—“a great they are not the prime focus of my remarks. It is the turning”, as some people have described it—from a small-scale, innovative designers such as From Somewhere, society based on continued industrial growth to a less Adili and People Tree that need support, especially consumer-driven, more sustainable way of living, what those that have been pioneers of ethical fashion for a is the role of the arts in shaping national consciousness decade or more. and informing the development of values that will be This economic climate is particularly unfavourable of importance to the economic structures of the future? for the SMEs and micro-enterprises that populate the This social consciousness is not anything new for creative industries in general and the fashion industry the arts and creative sector—on the contrary. But in particular. I would very much like to hear from the there is a greater sense of urgency given what is Minister about initiatives under way at government happening at the moment and the challenges that we level. In London, we are fortunate to have had the 313 Creative Industries[LORDS] Creative Industries 314

[BARONESS YOUNG OF HORNSEY] Film Festival who endured what Bernard Levin once GLA produce several booklets of guidelines on becoming denounced as Edinburgh’s “annual ceremony of the green in different areas, such as Green Screen Guide, grudging of the money”. Green Music Guide and Green Theatre Guide. Is anything Just last month, our ambitious and successful arts besides the SCAP happening at a national level that festival in Brighton, where I now live, attracted many can facilitate the further development of the creative visitors from abroad and kicked off a summer holiday sector and maintain its reputation for innovation, is season. As my noble friend Lord Bragg said, we must economically resilient with a 21st-century skills set surely marvel at all the activity that is going on: music and is socially responsible and environmentally festivals, book festivals, art exhibitions, poetry readings, sustainable? opera events, free and more attractive museums and, as the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, said, dance groups 12.21 pm such as Diversity from Dagenham—Britain has indeed got talent. Lord Macdonald of Tradeston: My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Bragg for his initiative in securing We have all this, and Liz Forgan now chairing the this important debate and for his entertaining and Arts Council, where we shall all benefit from the forceful review of our creative life. I grew up in Scotland bubbling energy of the kind which she showed in her before television, and a pretty bleak time it was. Our time running BBC Radio and, before that, at Channel 4, most exciting cultural activities were watching films where she helped create a whole new industry sector of and listening to music from America. We saw very independent producers of television. Six hundred indie little that reflected our own lives, and a career in what companies now turn over about £2 billion a year and we now call the “creative industries” was open to very employ more than 20,000 people. It is another huge few. Well, how things have changed. success in our media sector, helping us to maintain our reputation for producing the world’s best broadcasting. When I left school in the mid-1950s, about four pupils in 100 went on to university. Today, almost half As noble Lords will hear in a later debate today, of pupils go on to higher education, more than half of your Lordships’ Select Committee on Communications whom are women—another remarkable measure of has been conducting inquiries into the state of our our progress in the past half-century. And, of course, television and film industries. Here it is not, alas, all many of those students now choose media-related good news. One great achievement of broadcasting courses, or study for careers in other creative activities. policy in the UK was the creation of a network of commercial broadcasters, mostly based in the regions As chancellor of Glasgow Caledonian University, I and coming together in the national ITV network to see hundreds of gifted media students graduating each compete with the BBC in the quality of their public year. In recent times, their options for further training service broadcasting. For 50 years, this very robust have multiplied in all sorts of fascinating niches. For business was funded by television advertising, but the instance, as a former television executive, I am delighted ITV network now faces acute problems. Despite to see our university being used by broadcasters and maintaining pretty decent audience ratings, ITV sees independent producers, led by Shed Productions, to its advertising migrating to online services. Newspapers train scriptwriters of long-form dramas, from serials are also in financial trouble, as ad revenue is sucked to soap operas, with the opportunity of working live out of the UK economy by global operators such as on location. Google. The ITV regional companies have now mostly In previous educational roles, on the council of been absorbed into a consolidated ITV plc, based Sussex University, as a governor of the National Film increasingly in London. and Television School and as a visiting professor of To compensate for the loss of ITV production from film and media studies at Stirling University, I endured centres across the English regions, I am sure that the all the inane jibes about “Mickey Mouse” degrees in Minister will want to give every encouragement to the media studies. My most effective response was to say BBC in its plans to devolve operations outside London. that when I was chief executive of Scottish Television, Perhaps Ofcom, while considering how best to support there was nothing “Mickey Mouse” about the profits ITV, would have a word with it about its obligations to that we made producing the “Disney Club” each week support training in television by renewing its vital for ITV. contribution to Skillset, the sector skills council for However, it took a long time to persuade politicians the creative media. Skillset does a great job and support and opinion-formers that our creative work was also a for it should be mandatory from all companies that serious business, in which Britain often led the world. I benefit from our systems of public service broadcasting. think that that argument has been won, and it is Our talent base is what underpins the success of our accepted that we are now well into the revolution that television industry at home and in international markets, is shaping a very different, service-based, online economy. and is also what attracts international film makers to I recall back in the 1990s a pioneering effort by shoot in Britain and work with British crews. I congratulate Glasgow, an industrial city in decline, to rebrand itself, the DCMS and, in particular, our own the noble Lord, quite brilliantly, as the first European City of Culture, Lord Smith, on setting up the UK Film Council, although that, for me as a Glaswegian, is a title which has been a force for progress across what has permanently held by Edinburgh, which hosts each always been a rather unco-ordinated but talent-driven August the most exuberant collection of festivals anywhere business. That talent has to be trained, as my generation on the planet. Once dismissed as arty and frivolous, was not, to maintain the remarkable position that the that festival is now seen as an economic and aesthetic UK has achieved as a global leader in the creative treasure—and I speak as a former chair of the Edinburgh industries. 315 Creative Industries[4 JUNE 2009] Creative Industries 316

I trust that the Minister and politicians of all On 20 May, the parliamentary group—sponsored parties will follow a basic rule of business; invest in by PPL—hosted the widely acclaimed parliamentary success and back your winners. If we are in for a jazz awards, where we recognised the contribution lengthy recession and the possible shrinking of the made by musicians, their recordings, broadcasters, financial sector, it is all the more important that the educators, journalists and jazz venues. Government continue to invest in new skills and talent, which will build new creative businesses, starting in The annual turnover of the jazz sector of the British our schools and universities. The White Paper on music industry is in excess of £88 million. The report Digital Britain, to be published later this month, will by Jazz Services Ltd as part of its Arts Council England highlight the challenges and opportunities of the online lottery development project found that sales of CDs revolution. through shops and websites and at gigs reached almost £40 million, while ticket sales for jazz concerts and Let us be under no illusions: a wave of disruptive festivals were worth £22.5 million. technology is sweeping across our creative industries. We are already counting the casualties in regional The Value of Jazz in Britain report estimated that newspapers and television. Piracy has to be suppressed; there were over 45,000 jazz performances per year in global predators and free-riders have to be confronted. the UK and said that a significant area of growth was Levies may have to be imposed to pay for the support the number of annual festivals. A survey of jazz promoters of this vital industry sector, which is a creative cluster showed that half of pub gigs were given free of charge of talent, uniquely British—and irreplaceable if allowed or cost £5 or less to enter. The typical admission to atrophy. Above all, we need strategies in government charge for a jazz club event was between £5 and £7.50, that help our creative industries to understand and while tickets for concerts at arts centres or concert deploy these new technologies ahead of other nations. halls typically cost between £7.50 and £10. The income I hope that the Minister and official bodies such as of promoters and musicians from admission charges is Ofcom will conclude that, in times such as these, they supplemented by public funding from arts councils may have to be as radical as reality itself. and local authorities, with smaller amounts from arts charities and commercial sponsors. The report estimates 12.28 pm that jazz received over £4 million per year in public funding and a much smaller amount in commercial Lord Colwyn: My Lords, since adding my name to sponsorship. the speakers list only a few days ago, I have received briefing documents on a wide variety of subjects, Audience research on music and other art forms which highlight the importance of our debate this showed that over 3 million adults had attended at least morning. I have heard from ITV, Channel 4 and Sky one jazz performance in the previous year, with a core Arts. I have received information on the Digital Britain audience for jazz estimated at 500,000 compared to report, highlighting the need to protect and create jobs 400,000 for classical music concerts and 100,000 for in the creative industries. PPL has contacted me on the folk music events. problems of copyright infringement and stressed that that lies at the core of the business models of all the Sadly, as the noble Lord, Lord Bragg, mentioned, creative industries. I have notes on online piracy and the performance of jazz has been restricted by the illegal file sharing. licensing legislation. The Act included the playing of Although I am grateful for this information, it is recorded music in the description of regulated important that I remind your Lordships of the significant entertainment, but it was changed in the transition to contribution of jazz to the economy. I declare an the new regime for existing bars, pubs, restaurants, interest as a very mediocre trumpet player and hotels and any premises that were already licensed to co-chairman of the All-Party Parliamentary Jazz sell alcohol. Those places were allowed to keep jukeboxes Appreciation Group. We had to change the name from or other systems for the playing of incidental recorded the All-Party Jazz Group to the All-Party Parliamentary sound and broadcast events, no matter how powerful Jazz Appreciation Group because of all the requests the amplification. However, the automatic permission that came to Westminster to book the non-existent to have one or two musicians in such venues—amplified parliamentary jazz band. or not—has ceased. That was the live performer element of the so called two-in-a-bar rule, which, since 1961, Today musicians throughout the country play jazz. had been available in those premises as an exception Many UK jazz musicians have developed international from the general requirement to hold a public reputations for live performance and have recordings entertainment licence for live music. This restrictive that are seen and bought by a worldwide audience. legislation has had serious implications for jazz. It has There is an active jazz scene in all major UK cities. removed hundreds of venues where young musicians Mature musicians with established reputations and can perform and learn to play to an audience. young musicians, many with great flair and originality, seek a serious audience who can understand and enjoy As a result of extensive lobbying, the Government their music. They perform in a variety of settings: announced on 18 July 2008 an examination of the concert halls, arts centres, hotels, ballrooms, village effects of the Licensing Act and the impact on live halls, restaurants and coffee and public houses. Every music. In evidence, the committee heard from UK year there are jazz festivals all over the country, many Music and the licensed trade that the Act was harming attracting some of the finest jazz musicians in the small gigs. Despite that, the Government seem now to world. More than 3 million people patronise these have abandoned their promise to hold in the spring of events with five times that amount expressing a definable this year a public consultation on further exemptions interest in jazz. for low-risk performances. 317 Creative Industries[LORDS] Creative Industries 318

[LORD COLWYN] industrial and our cultural ends. Should we do so, the In March 2009, the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, rewards will be immense. I should like to identify asked why the consultation had not taken place. The myself with the remarks made by my noble friend noble Lord, Lord Davies, replied: Lord Macdonald of Tradeston in what I thought was “There is no formal review of the live music provisions of the a marvellous speech about the talent base. The talent Licensing Act 2003. However, the Department for Culture, Media base is everything. Without the talents and skills, this and Sport continues to discuss the effect of the Licensing Act 2003 entire debate becomes, I am afraid, something of a on live music with representatives of musicians and local government. waste of time; with them, it becomes packed with These discussions include consideration of how low impact live potential. music events might be further encouraged”.—[Official Report, 24/3/09; col. WA 122.] The really big thing that has happened since 1997 in A report by the House of Commons Culture, Media relation to this sector is the serious arrival of digital and Sport Committee, published on 14 May, agreed technology. My noble friend Lord Carter, who sadly is that something more needed to be done to try to make not in his seat today, knows this better than anyone in it easier for smaller and secondary venues to host live your Lordships’ House, and I am sure that we all look music performance. It states, on page 30: forward to the imminent publication of his report. “We recommend that the Government should exempt venues The digital environment, and the huge changes that with a capacity of 200 persons or fewer from the need to obtain a it brings with it in terms of access to audiences and the licence for the performance of live music. We further recommend use of our creative output, is a massive opportunity. It the reintroduction of the ‘two-in-a-bar’ exemption enabling venues of any size to put on a performance of non-amplified music by means, for example, that organisations such as the one or two musicians without the need for a licence. We believe Tate, the Royal Opera House, the National Theatre that these two exemptions would encourage the performance of and the British Film Institute, all of which were once live music without impacting negatively on any of the four thought of simply as cultural organisations, are suddenly licensing objectives under the Act”. in the digital content business—and on a global level. I know that the Minister will have a look at this. I The Royal Opera House and its production arm, Opus am concerned that draft DCMS guidance that Arte, are now delivering their productions to cinemas accompanies the new minor variations amendment across the UK, Europe, the United States and well includes a very weak statement in support of live beyond. Last year, over 450 million people in China music applications. It says that, saw one of its productions. “the addition of live or recorded music to a licence may impact on Some of this work is being done in 3D. As anyone the public nuisance objective, but this will depend on many who has seen a demonstration of 3D cinema knows, it factors. Licensing authorities will need to consider factors such as proximity to residential areas and any noise reduction conditions pretty well knocks your socks off. Tate Media has volunteered by the applicant. It is very much the Government’s taken one of the best-known brands in the country intention that applications to vary a licence for live music should and created and commissioned content that expands benefit from the minor variations process unless there is likely to on and contextualises its activities in all sorts of innovative be an adverse impact on the licensing objectives”. ways via its Tate Player. Later this month, the National Could it be that, despite government promises of a Theatre will screen “Phaedra” with Helen Mirren live public consultation this spring on further exemptions to a chain of cinemas across the UK. This is a huge for live music, faced by Local Government Association opportunity for the UK, culturally and commercially. opposition, Ministers have little enthusiasm for such In fact, the two happily go hand in hand. Building on exemptions in pubs and bars? our cultural assets, we can create global commercial I have a final thought. Can the Minister comment value, while also delighting audiences at home who, on the plan by Sing London to place 30 pianos in both as taxpayers and as lottery players, helped to different areas of London? Some of the sites will be in subsidise that content in the first place. licensed areas, but some will not. Will he be advising However, the creation of new content, vital though the local authorities how this contravention of the it may be, is only part of the contribution that our licensing law will be managed? creative industries can make in a digital age. I happen to think that we are simultaneously entering a fascinating phase in the development of this country’s literal 12.36 pm treasure trove of archival content. Much of it was Lord Puttnam: My Lords, I, too, am extremely funded by the public purse in the name of our creative grateful to my noble friend Lord Bragg for initiating industries, although they were not called that at the this debate, which comes just a week or two ahead of time, and much of it was for years hidden from public my noble friend Lord Carter’s Digital Britain report. view. In other words, they are creative assets that have This Labour Government, I am proud to say, and my not been allowed to sweat their value to the benefit of noble friend Lord Smith of Finsbury should take the creative economy and, indeed, to the broader enormous credit for having put the creative industries public. This content is staggeringly rich and diverse, on the public policy map since 1997. ranging from hundreds of episodes of “The South Twelve years on, and with a severe contraction in Bank Show”, courtesy of my noble friend Lord Bragg, our financial services sector as well as elsewhere in the to award-winning amateur films about life in rural economy, it feels as though the creative industries’ England, few of which have ever seen the light of time has finally arrived. We have the strongest creative projection. talent base in the world, certainly on a per capita basis I offer just one example. Inspired, I am sure, by the and possibly even on an absolute basis. We need to runaway success of its Mitchell and Kenyon titles, the invest in that talent and to harness it to both our British Film Institute moved up a gear last year with 319 Creative Industries[4 JUNE 2009] Creative Industries 320 the restoration and release of the public information useful. Under the right conditions you can generate masterpieces, which it put out on DVD, entirely made sufficient heat to make tools and weapons and do all up of archival material. The British Transport Films sorts of other useful things. A few thousand years go collection, the stunning collection of public information by and along comes James Watt, with another enormous films collected together under the generic title “Land leap forward to the realisation that you can turn heat of Promise”and the GPO film packages are all absolutely into steam and thus generate energy, so passive coal invaluable to anyone with the remotest interest in this became active energy. Surely that is exactly what we nation’s recent past. should now be trying to do in moving our archives The next phase is to really build on the BFI’s from their passive, collection-based status to a thorough- existing online activities, such as www.screenonline.org.uk, going, energy-generating, productive resource—effectively and make sure that schools and colleges of every kind a brand-new form of invaluable intellectual energy for across the UK make use of these films in citizenship our creative economy. As during the first Industrial classes and, indeed, in modern history classes. These Revolution, culture and commerce can go hand in are films that can and should be used for a whole series hand as an engine of growth. of different purposes. It is hard to argue the case for In the end, though, our ability to deliver all this producing a brilliant series on British Rail if it is going rests on our commitment to invest in our creative and to reach and engage only a few hundred rail anoraks; I technological talent. It seems absolutely self-evident sincerely apologise in advance to those one or two to me that, without that commitment, which has to be anoraks who invariably emerge from the depths of a judicious mix of public and private investment, we your Lordships’ House as world experts on pretty well cannot be among the winners in this new economy. every subject on earth. On the other hand, if, through I am absolutely persuaded that, as we enter the era films such as these, citizens across the UK, young and of the digital economy, our creative industries have the old, develop a better understanding of the overwhelming potential to be world leaders in many respects. I do importance of our transport infrastructure, that can not have time today to touch on the contribution that surely only be a good thing. There is real added value our games sector, designers and musicians make to in ensuring that, for example, a national debate on the that economy both at home and abroad. But we have future of rail is both informed and stimulated as a the creative talent. We have the creative and cultural result of the availability of such material. assets. All we really now need in order to deliver our Within the context of many issues surrounding potential is the vision, ambition and energy that future sustainability, such films suddenly become an demonstrate our commitment to these creative industries even more valuable teaching and learning resource. as being the real standard-bearers for our national Until we encourage people, particularly young people, prosperity in the 21st century. I very much hope that past the so-called expert custodians and allow them to today’s debate will reinforce the fact that all sides of understand the implications of the many irreversible your Lordships’ House recognise the opportunity and decisions being made daily on their behalf, we are the fact that it is there for the taking. merely delaying the opportunity of creating a more engaged, better informed and more responsible citizenry. 12.45 pm Let me put that another way. By combining the Lord Rowe-Beddoe: My Lords, I declare a non- availability of an extremely rich array of material from pecuniary interest as chairman of the Wales Millennium the UK’s archive and the possibilities offered by digital Centre and president of the Royal Welsh College of technologies, we have the opportunity of looking at Music and Drama. I join in thanking the noble Lord, things and, as it were, reassembling them. We can try Lord Bragg, for securing this debate. to reimagine our world as it might be, or even as it might become. All this is part of what is really an We have heard persuasive arguments. The sector is enormous opportunity for the strategy for UK screen vital, not just for the wealth that it creates, but for its heritage, for which the Government have recently given contribution to the social and intellectual well-being the UK Film Council a capital allocation to begin to of our country. It was my intention to expand upon bring forward. such matters on a national canvas, until I had the fortune—good or otherwise—to pick up yesterday I am also enormously encouraged by the work that this excellent document which was thoughtfully Roly Keating is now leading as director of archive placed in our Library. I refer to the 2007 report content at the BBC. The decision by the BBC’s published by UK Trade and Investment entitled Creative management to make one of its most senior executives Industries UK. head of this whole area signals something very important. As I scanned its helpful pages, I realised how London- It is the kind of management change that suggests a centric the messages were. The word “Cardiff” is serious interest in releasing this potential. mentioned once, “Wales” twice, “Scotland” once and Tony Ageh, the BBC’s controller of archive “Edinburgh” thrice. In the section on useful contacts, development, recently came up with an extraordinary there is no Arts Council of Wales or Wales creative and prescient analogy in which he compares archives industries’ Hub, although Scottish Screen does get an to energy. He makes the point that coal has for ever entry. I could go on, and the Minister may wince as I lain underground and was for millennia just sitting return to themes that I have already used in your there to be dug up from time to time because it burns Lordships’ House in connection with the funding of slowly and you can warm yourself by it. Basically, it the Olympics and its negative financial impact on arts was an entirely passive asset. However, eventually funding and the unsatisfactory Cultural Olympiad someone realised that this coal stuff was really quite programme which is unfolding; unsatisfactory because, 321 Creative Industries[LORDS] Creative Industries 322

[LORD ROWE-BEDDOE] almost 1,000 people employed under one roof. Noble despite government statements to the contrary, it is Lords may agree that this is a significant workforce again largely centred on London organisations. Where even by large-scale manufacturing standards. Since is the legacy promised to the United Kingdom? opening in 2004, the centre has been visited by nearly The former Prime Minister stated in 2007 that, six million people, making it the number one tourist years before he came to government, he said that he attraction in Wales and one of the top 10 cultural would, attractions outside London. This figure is far in excess “make the arts and culture part of our ‘core script’ … no longer of the original predictions of key stakeholders, including to be on the periphery … an essential part of the narrative about the Welsh Assembly Government. the character of a new, different, changed Britain”. We have seen unprecedented growth in recent years I, like many others, am still waiting for this to happen. in the arts, securing the UK’s position as a world After a false start, Liverpool achieved much in centre, if not the world centre. The sector has also held artistic, social and economic terms by successfully up well—as it has done in the past—against recession. completing its year as European City of Culture—so Last month, for example, we sold £l million worth of much so that the Government then suggested at the advance tickets for our Christmas presentation, Cameron beginning of this year that they would support an Mackintosh’s “Les Miserables”, touring for the first initiative to have a British city of culture annually. time in 15 years. Since the initial publicity there has been silence. I As we have frequently heard, the Government seek remind the Government that those UK cities which to grow our way out of recession. I firmly believe that reached the shortlist for 2008 each spent at least the seeds of investment need to be spread on this most £1 million. The question I have raised with the DCMS fertile ground—the creative industries. The impact on is that, rather than start a whole new contest in these the lives of people of all ages and backgrounds is now economic times, why not just nominate the cities that well known. were short listed, put them in alphabetical order and, Returning for a moment to UK Trade and if they accept it, just get on with it? Perhaps the Investment—an organisation for which I have a lot of Minister would care to comment. respect and with which I have had a great deal to do in As Wales has been left off the UK Trade and the past—earlier this year a YouGov survey conducted Investment cultural map, I fear that I must compensate among a panel of business leaders cited the provision for this omission. For some time, the creative industries of arts and culture as being a critical determinant in in Wales have been identified as a key driver of our investment location decisions, even more important—this business growth. The sector employs 21,000 people—just may be hard to believe—than a favourable tax regime. over 4 per cent of the UK creative industry’s workforce— There is no doubt that the Wales Millennium Centre contributing more than £900 million GVA to the UK has become a symbol for what is innovative and attractive economy. By 2014, the industry is expected to grow by about Cardiff and Wales, and for the devolved another 5,000 jobs. By 2011, the BBC will have moved Administration it is a symbol of national identity. more of its drama production to Cardiff, adding to Lastly, Wales is a centre of excellence in creativity, the growing stable of network drama produced in the with our higher education institutions punching well city, including the award-winning “Doctor Who”, above their weight in producing some of the UK’s “Torchwood” and “Gavin and Stacey”. leading talent in music, drama and film. I hope that I One of Dylan Thomas’s more memorable lines is: have contributed to noble Lords’ understanding. “Praise the Lord, for we are a musical nation”. As I speak, the Welsh capital is preparing for the BBC 12.53 pm Cardiff Singer of the World 2009 and the Wales Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall: My Lords, I, too, Millennium Centre is literally buzzing with rehearsals thank my noble friend Lord Bragg for introducing this for competing singers from 25 countries for the hugely debate at a very timely moment. His remarks cheered prestigious title, won in the past by many now globally me up. In a dark time it is wonderful to hear such famous stars. The event will attract audiences from all enthusiasm. I agree most profoundly with what he said over the world. Nowhere is performance better showcased about the contribution of the arts and culture to—as than at the Wales Millennium Centre with its 1,900-seat he put it—feeding the inner life. If only we could talk lyric theatre, studio theatre, state-of-the-art recital hall, about this with less embarrassment, not in this House, dance house and one of the UK’s largest free performance of course, but elsewhere. programmes. The centre is home to eight creative I should declare a variety of interests—the term organisations: Welsh National Opera; BBC National “creative industries”draws together a variety of enterprise Orchestra of Wales; Academy; Hijinx Theatre and which includes the live performing arts, where I spent Touch Trust, two artistic companies working with most of my professional life and where I retain connections people with learning disabilities and severe learning through membership of several boards, including that disabilities; Ty Cerdd, the amateur music federation; of the Roundhouse in north London, the National Diversions, the national dance company; and Urdd Opera Studio and the Royal Academy of Dramatic Gobaith Cymru. Art. Today, however, I want to talk about two aspects Last week the centre hosted the Urdd National of the creative economy with which I have no personal Eisteddfod—the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, may have association, except to the extent that my son started in referred to that—one of Europe’s largest youth cultural one of them and now works in the other. The first is festivals, attended by 100,000 over six days. The centre television drama—that was briefly mentioned by my is a creative factory, a true furnace of creativity, with noble friend Lord Bragg—and the second is the fashion 323 Creative Industries[4 JUNE 2009] Creative Industries 324 industry, about which I thought I might be alone in imported drama, mostly from Hollywood? In thinking making observations. However, I reckoned without about this I am indebted to Professor Peter Grant of the excellent contribution of the noble Baroness, Lady the Law Faculty at Toronto University.In the illuminating Young. evidence he recently gave to the Communications I am privileged to be a member of your Lordships’ Committee, he noted the need for Governments and Select Committee on Communications. I am sorry not regulators to maintain and enhance their involvement to be able to take part in the debate later today on the with locally produced drama to avoid a decline in what committee’s report on public service broadcasting because Ofcom and others accept is the most popular genre of many of the issues raised in the report have a direct programming on television. bearing on matters under discussion in this debate. In Professor Grant says: particular, it draws attention to the current gaps in “People appreciate having their own stories told and their own public service provision and asks some searching questions experience reflected on the small screen”. about how those gaps are to be filled, both in terms of He goes on to point out that there is a clear economic funding and content. My own principal anxiety centres justification for government support, noting the on the future of high-quality drama for television. For importance of creative clusters to economic strategy. the purposes of this debate, I use the term “high-quality” He says: to refer to the kind of work exemplified by, for example, “Creative clusters are essentially groupings of the creative Granada’s work in the 1980s such as “Jewel in the personnel in cities and regions who are able to produce quality Crown” and “Brideshead Revisited”, and more recently cultural products of all types … Drama is the one category that by productions such as Channel 4’s recent “Red Riding” uses all of the creative energies and all of your creative forces or “The Devil’s Whore”, and some of the best of the together. It is the highest cost within programming but it is also BBC’s output such as “Life on Mars” and “Cranford”. the most ambitious and if you have a structure in the country that supports local drama it is a major contribution to the development I recently embarked on a programme of acquisitions of these creative clusters. There have been studies ... in many for my own DVD library in order to get together as countries ... about the importance now of creative clusters to the many of the television drama series that I remembered economic well-being of a nation”. enjoying over the past 25 years, have another look at The UK is rich in the talented people who form these them and see whether they stood up to scrutiny. So in clusters, and their skills are sought after worldwide, as the past few months I have watched “Brideshead a number of speakers have said. Furthermore, what Revisited”, many adaptations of various Dickens novels they create is popular and highly valued by audiences and of novels by Trollope, Thomas Hardy and George both at home and abroad. Will my noble friend say Eliot, two series based on John Le Carre’s Smiley when he replies in what way the Government intend to novels, “The Edge of Darkness”, a brilliant original encourage broadcasters and programme makers to drama commissioned by the BBC—now something of maintain their commitment to UK television drama? a cult piece—in which the late and in my view very Will they, for example, consider the introduction of much lamented Bob Peck gave one of his finest levies, as was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord performances, and a lot else besides. Your Lordships Macdonald, and as has been done in other European may think that I have too much time on my hands. But countries, to provide an additional source of funds for the fact is that I am not embarrassed to share this this vital work? aspect of my leisure activity with the House because Finally, I shall have a brief word about fashion. I this little research project focused my mind not on love fashion; it is perhaps another indication of my recalling a supposed golden age when there was always fundamentally frivolous nature, but it is not just because something good on telly—although a lot of this work I like nice clothes. I am intrigued by the way the is very good—but on wondering whether in 25 years’ fashion industry represents the bringing together of time my children will have a similarly impressive volume often radical design ideas with strong commercial and range of television drama to remember in their imperatives. It is an industry that is highly consumer- dotage. For the danger in which we stand now is that focused and depends on innovation—some might say the cost of making this sort of home-grown work is so on novelty—making it highly dynamic and highly high, particularly when compared with the relatively globalised, for example in relation to the sourcing of low cost of buying in product from the USA, that textiles, as has already been pointed out by the noble television companies are able to do less and less of it Baroness, Lady Young. As she also said, it has not and almost invariably need co-production money to always been at the forefront of ethical thinking about do it at all. trade, but now, in a world faced with huge social, We have heard about the crisis facing the independent economic and environmental challenges, some television companies. ITV has already told us that practitioners are beginning to develop systems to address drama is one of the areas it will cut back. Channel 4’s the negative impacts of current practices and push the drama output, once one of its great glories, is also huge creative energy within the industry towards likely to decline as the company struggles to find a imagining—I use the word advisedly—a future based sustainable way forward. The BBC, although still in on collaborative models of sustainability and ethical the forefront of producing UK drama, is under increasing practice. For example, the Centre for Sustainable Fashion, pressure to share its resources with others, and we set up in 2008, at the London College of Fashion is must wonder what impact this will have on how it already working with big fashion retail businesses to fulfils its commitment to drama in the future. Why take some of these ideas forward, looking to develop does this matter—in particular, why does it matter to skills and technologies as well as design talent, to the economy? Why should we not leave things to the create, as it says, market and content ourselves largely with a diet of “better lives through a sustainable fashion economy”. 325 Creative Industries[LORDS] Creative Industries 326

[BARONESS MCINTOSH OF HUDNALL] previous one. The pendulum swings backwards and I will be interested to hear how my noble friend forwards. One of the essential preconditions of a responds to the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady thriving creative sector of the economy is a thriving Young, about government support for the sustainable education sector, which has to understand history and fashion initiatives already under way. the context in which we are living. Yet do we as a In these dark times, and despite all the difficulties, society properly fund and support what I might call the creative industries in this country provide us with the framework for that sort of education to take something to feel good about. There is so much to be place? The Victoria and Albert, to name but one such proud of, and so much to lose if we fail to understand institution, was established as much as anything else the significance of what these industries contribute. I as a resource for students. That is true of many of the hope that the Government will continue to do everything great provincial museums round this country. We do possible to support and encourage them. not fund them properly. We are a country that seems to have gone to war in Iraq without really thinking twice about its cost. If you take the longer view, which is more important to our country in the future? Do we 1.01 pm have our cost-benefit analysis properly worked out? Lord Inglewood: My Lords, I am extremely grateful Another important contextual aspect, on which to the noble Lord, Lord Bragg, for introducing the nobody has yet touched, is the influence of old buildings debate, and particularly for—on a slightly different and landscape on every member of society. That is tack from the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh— probably the way in which we are touched by what has emphasising the creative industries’ economic significance gone before in a bigger and wider sense than almost to Britain. That is particularly important in the context any other, yet how does society operate? The state of what I might call the post-financial-crash world, seems to put hurdles and barriers in front of people although I am tempted as an aside to comment that I who want to improve and maintain things. I always suspect that the trouble there was a trifle too much suspect that neglect and lack of maintenance has done creativity. The point about the creative industries’ far more to destroy our cultural architectural heritage talent and creativity is that it does not come from than the Luftwaffe ever did. Again we come back to nowhere; it needs to be nurtured, appreciated and the question of whether those who take the decisions rewarded. In my few remarks, I would like to say a fully balance the benefits and costs represented by a little about, first, failure, which we have not talked world where the creative economy is becoming important. about yet; secondly, the past; thirdly, leadership; and As I said, much of what is created is not very good. fourthly, education. The market sorts some of it out, but not all of it. I The older I get, the more I am staggered by the often wonder whether those involved in cultural leadership number of bad paintings in the world. An awful lot of necessarily give enough support and credit to those them were thought to be good at the point at which who understand, and who can point out to the rest of they were created. If you go into a bookshop, it is us who follow, what is good. Some of us may have unbelievable how many bad books are on the shelves; been to see the pictures that the British Council bought if you go into the basement of a second-hand bookshop, that are on show in the Whitechapel art gallery. It is an it is even worse. You have to realise that, for the people extraordinary testament to the ability of the original who created them all, they were important intellectual purchasing team to see what it acquired then. The projects. However, to have a successful creative noble Lord, Lord Bragg, will know that Carlisle—my economy—rather like to have an effective programme home city, and very close to where he comes from—had of scientific research, a point made recently in an the most enlightened policy of art acquisition between article that I read by the noble Lord, Lord Rees of the wars and after the Second World War; Carlisle city Ludlow—it is necessary to understand failure. Society gallery has a remarkable collection. That policy was must know how to handle it and deal with its financial made by those in political authority acting on the implications. I remember talking long ago to Sir Sydney judgment and expertise of those who knew what they Samuelson about film, and I said, “Can you predict were doing, and not simply being swayed by a kind which film will be a success?”. He said, “No, but I can of—if I can be rather crude about it—debased populism. tell from a group of 10 which film will become successful; I have touched on what is crucial for the future: that nine of them will flop”. The problem is rather like we have an education system to develop the talent that something that I was saying to the noble Baroness, will enable us as a nation to derive the economic Lady McIntosh, yesterday about the Treasury’s approach benefits that the creative industries are capable of to the previous regime about film finance; it appeared providing for us. That education system must be rigorous to be too successful—in other words, it involved too and properly founded. I suspect that the chances of it much money—and somehow it had not produced, in turning out, certainly at degree-show level, material its view, enough good films. However, to have a successful that the Members of this House might appreciate and creative economy, there has to be failure and an enjoy at first blush are pretty remote. Indeed, I suspect understanding that that is inevitable. that something would be wrong were it to do so. For there to be a continuing pool of talent, it must However, the danger that faces the country is that, if be continuously replenished from the younger generation. the system of education is organised on a kind of The characteristic of the younger generation, in every tick-in-the-box measurement output basis, we will stifle generation, is that it rejects history. The world did not the creativity that will be so important economically start in 1997, 1979 or 1879; it is always a case of one for the future. Again, how is the cost-benefit analysis generation reacting against and moving on from the working in this area? 327 Creative Industries[4 JUNE 2009] Creative Industries 328

For me, the key to understanding creativity lies in Our creative industries are therefore not some one’s analysis of what “Culture” is all about. Too lightweight or marginal sector contributing on the much now in this country, the “C” in “DCMS” has periphery of our economy. They are serious business. become synonymous simply with what people do in Our music industry alone—a recognised world leader— their spare time; that is not as it should be at all. In this supports 125,000 jobs and contributes nearly £5 billion country—it is a characteristic that seems to go back to the UK economy, of which one-third derives from many years—I fear that we do not really care much exports. The UK film and video industries employ about this. We, particularly the English, pride ourselves more than 50,000 people, with British television’s overseas on having common sense and our feet on the ground. earnings bringing in around half a billion pounds. As a result, we do not give proper credit to the Pinewood Studios has recently announced plans to economic significance of these areas of human endeavour. double its size as it challenges Hollywood for the next It was summed up to me succinctly some years ago generation of blockbuster films. Importantly, those when I went as our country’s representative to the plans include working with the National Film and informal Culture Council in Bologna. There was I, Television School to set up an onsite academy to train and my Italian counterpart was Walter Veltroni, then set designers and costume makers, and Pinewood is Deputy Prime Minister. While I do not think that Italy projecting its plans as an opportunity to form a creative is a very good political comparator, I suspect, perhaps cluster, adding to a media park that houses companies at least in this little regard, that it may have got it a bit such as Technicolor. more right than we did. We have the largest market in Europe for computer The problem is that those in the public sector who and video games, as people in Britain now buy more view these things cannot evaluate what the cultural computer games than record singles. In 2008, the UK and creative sector contributes to our country—not in video and computer games industry generated £2.5 billion aesthetic, artistic or spiritual terms, which are important and more than 20,000 people were employed in games anyway, but in hard economic terms. In the post-industrial development, publishing and retail. Most multinational world into which we are moving, that will become games companies choose to locate their European HQ increasingly important. It is important that this issue in the UK, and we have by far the largest concentration is revisited in a hard-nosed way to make sure that the of games development studios in Europe, with clusters bean counters and the accountants, in putting together around Cambridge, Coventry, Dundee, Leeds and our “national plan”, have this issue clear in their Liverpool, to name but a few. Our design industry is heads. The underlying problem is that culture, like now worth over £5 billion a year, employing 70,000 politics, is something that we in this country want on people, and our designer fashion industry—as the the cheap. And look where that has got us—we seem noble Baroness, Lady Young, said—has grown tenfold to know the price of everything and the value of in the past decade. Collectively, that is big business nothing. indeed. In the Government’s first two terms they championed 1.10 pm the creative industries, driven largely, as many noble Lords have said, by my noble friend Lord Smith of Lord Watson of Invergowrie: My Lords, I recently Finsbury in a previous life. The challenge now is to came across the following quote: promote creativity and innovation in every part of our “The stuff that creates new insights, delights and experiences, that stirs our senses and enriches our lives, is also the stuff that is economy, because creativity is as important in the propelling a larger slice of our economic output. How we create retail industry and in education, health and business the architecture that will incubate rather than stunt creative as it is in the creative industries. The cultural sector in industry growth is a major policy question”. its widest sense should become the dynamo of the Those are the wise words of Will Hutton, the chief creative impulse that can serve all of those areas. My executive of the Work Foundation. This debate is an noble friend Lord Bragg quoted the key employment important contribution to creating that architecture statistics for the creative industries, but he was referring and I congratulate my noble friend Lord Bragg on to direct jobs. A great many creative jobs are within bringing it about. the many businesses supporting these industries. Defining the sector is not always straightforward, The Government understand and have recognised but it should include everything from advertising to the value of the creative industries. They have lain out architecture, music and film to design and publishing, in clear and decisive terms what needs to be done to fashion and computer games to TV and DVD; and we nurture the sector and ensure that the economy gains should not overlook the fact either that it also includes maximum value from their products. It was an excellent the sciences, because what on earth are scientists if example of joined-up thinking and cross-cutting they are not creative? But that, of course, is a subject government that produced the creative economy strategy more appropriate for the debate that will follow this entitled Creative Britain: New Talents for the New one. Economy. DCMS, in partnership with BERR and the Taken as a whole, the creative industries make a Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills, huge contribution to our economy as well as to our set out a wide range of commitments outlining how social and cultural life. They employ around 2 million the Government will take action to support the creative people. They produce a higher proportion of GDP in industries. Most measures are self-explanatory, such the UK than they do in any other country, and they as giving all children a creative education, supporting contribute considerably more to our balance of trade research and innovation, or helping creative businesses than does construction, insurance or pensions, and to grow and access finance, and all contain a raft of twice the amount of the pharmaceutical sector. measures that will help develop and sustain the sector. 329 Creative Industries[LORDS] Creative Industries 330

[LORD WATSON OF INVERGOWRIE] with a briefing for today’s debate outlining the Perhaps the most important measure is the one recommendations of its Creative Futures report. One known as supporting creative clusters, because the of its group, the University of Abertay Dundee, is a spin-off effects of such developments can be of real partner in Scotland’s centre for research and teaching benefit to more than the creative industries themselves. in the creative industries, the Institute for Capitalising These companies can prove to be the drivers of wider on Creativity. Last year, the ICC was awarded a growth, sometimes leading the regeneration of cities £1.5 million grant from the UK’s Economic and Social experiencing post-industrial economic slump. Research Council to conduct research in the creative My home city of Dundee provides a prime example industries in Scotland. The institute combines the of that. Left reeling from a sharp reduction in heavy expertise of four Scottish universities and is dedicated engineering and an end to shipbuilding, the city suffered to a novel postgraduate programme of research, from relatively low innovation and export levels. The knowledge transfer, continuing professional development response over the past 15 years has seen a ground-breaking and networking/hub activities, including seminars, think collaboration between Dundee City Council, Scottish tanks and conferences. The grant was one of only four Enterprise Tayside, the city’s universities and its businesses to be awarded in the UK under the ESRC’s Capacity to rebalance the local economy as a city region. Driven Building Clusters in Business Research and Engagement by Dundee University’s College of Life Sciences and scheme, and was the sole grant to focus on the creative the University of Abertay’s School of Computing and industries. Its award is a testament to the strength of Creative Technologies—both recognised as world those industries in Scotland. leaders—a creative media district was developed. The This debate is indeed timely. As much attention as area already housed the renowned Rep Theatre and possible should be drawn to the cultural sector and the the Duncan of Jordanstone College of Art and Design, creative industries, and I trust that my noble friend the which is now part of Dundee University, and its Minister will confirm that the Government will ensure cultural credentials were further enhanced with the that those industries continue to receive the necessary arrival of the Scottish Dance Theatre and a visual arts support to enable them to maintain their essential centre, Dundee Contemporary Arts. Dundee’s Digital contribution to our economy. Media Park, now known as Seabraes Yards, was established, and the multiplier effect on employment, inner-city regeneration and the city’s reputation far 1.19 pm and wide has been remarkable. More than 2,000 people Lord Corbett of Castle Vale: My Lords, I thank my are employed in the thriving creative media sector in noble friend Lord Bragg and congratulate him on the Dundee, and this will drive further growth. masterly way in which he introduced the debate. However, Other major UK cities have gone down a similar I gently chide him for overlooking the astonishing route: Glasgow’s flagship creative industries project, contribution of the members of the Lunar Society in the Digital Media Quarter, is taking shape at Pacific Birmingham—among them James Watt, Matthew Quay, a £500 million public and private sector Boulton, and Michael Faraday, to name but a few—who redevelopment project that is anticipated to deliver saw the problems facing people at the end of the 1700s 3,600 jobs by 2013. It is one of the flagship undertakings and into the 1800s. They met on the night of the full in the regeneration of the River Clyde waterfront, moon because there was no street lighting, and they with neighbours including BBC Scotland, Scottish set about solving those problems. Although it is a Television, Film City Glasgow and the city’s Science small matter, it is the West Midlands and not quite the Centre. north. The Cultural Industries Quarter in Sheffield is an That apart—and it might be something for the next example in another post-industrial city, and there are debate rather than this one—there is expanding success further instances in Birmingham, Liverpool and Newcastle in our creative industries. That success, as has already as the regional development agencies increasingly identify been said, is built on a very wide and deep base of the creative industries as one of the foundations for talent—in schools, colleges and universities, amateur building a strong and dynamic regional economy. The dramatic groups, choirs, orchestras and musical groups— London Development Agency has established Creative and among all those people inspired to put the book London to champion and support the capital’s creative which we all have inside us on to paper or on the industries. In Scotland, public agencies are supporting screen. Musicians, film makers, script writers, authors, the country’s creative talent, formally joining forces to TV producers and designers are world renowned alongside support the creative industries, a key sector for Scotland’s a wide range of other talents, and the artists and economy which makes an important contribution to programme makers do not all have to live within the prosperity and growth. In 2007, these industries generated M25 belt. a turnover of more than £5 billion and supported In Birmingham and the West Midlands, we have the more than 60,000 jobs. It is vital to build on that. In Royal Shakespeare Company, the City of Birmingham February this year, the Scottish Government published Symphony Orchestra, the Birmingham Royal Ballet a framework document outlining the roles and and the Birmingham Museum and Art Gallery among responsibilities of key support organisations, including many other companies, both professional and amateur, Creative Scotland, the enterprise agencies and local which enrich our cultural lives and take their talents authorities. into schools and community groups to encourage The UK’s universities play a vital role in developing others to enjoy what is on offer and perhaps to participate and sustaining the creative economy. The universities themselves. Advantage West Midlands, the development grouping Million+ has helpfully provided noble Lords agency, has a £1.3 million fund to support festivals 331 Creative Industries[4 JUNE 2009] Creative Industries 332 and events to underpin the region’s leisure tourism. What changes could be made? One example is to These include the Shakespeare birthday celebrations, make camcording illegal in cinemas. This is the source an international dance festival and a film premiere of 90 per cent of seized first-release films and DVDs. with Screen West Midlands. As has already been said, It is already a criminal offence in France, Italy and Britain truly has got talent. Spain, and, in my view, there is no reason why it Making a massive contribution to Britain’s creative should not be made a criminal offence here. Next, energy, as well as to the enjoyment of its viewers and there needs to be better regulation by local authorities’ listeners, is of course the BBC. There is no other trading standards departments of car boot sales and public broadcaster in the world, publicly fund, which other markets. It is said that the Digital Britain is able to offer such a wide variety of programmes in White Paper, which we are expecting later this sound and vision and digitally, and, in the process, to month, will commit the Government to the aim of discover and nurture the talent and skills which this reducing the file-sharing of illegal content by 70 to range of output needs and depends on, all paid for out 80 per cent within two to three years as one step of the licence fee. Only the BBC can sustain investment towards reducing online copyright theft. If that is the in a huge swathe of musical events, ranging from the case, I much welcome it. I well understand that it is a joyousness of the Proms at one end to the big band complex issue but ways can and must be found to concerts at the other. I very much agree with what Sir protect intellectual property rights for the future of Michael Lyons, the chairman of the BBC Trust, said our creative industries. last week: This debate is right to celebrate the value of our “The licence fee is key here … And when people come up with creative industries socially, culturally and economically, ideas about ‘top-slicing’ the licence fee for other causes or commercial and the depth and range of the talent that underpin players, they would do well to remember that licence fee-payers them. I do so with enthusiasm. give us their money in good faith, believing it will be spent on BBC services and content. To suddenly tell them midway through 1.26 pm the settlement that their money is being siphoned off, as some have suggested it should be, would be more than an act of bad Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe: My Lords, I faith, it would be tantamount to breaking a contract”. appreciate being allowed to make this brief contribution The BBC also makes increasing use of the independent in support of the education and research which underpin production sector, which stimulates and encourages what other noble Lords have shown to be the huge talent outside London as well, to bid for programme success of the creative industries. commissions. Channel 4 does the same, investing around I argue—I declare an interest as chief executive of £400 million a year in core independent production Universities UK—that this success has been built on companies and also supporting digital content production. the foundations of forward-looking education and Similarly, ITV,the largest of the commercial broadcasters, research in higher education institutions, yet I am invests around £800 million a year in original content, concerned that, in the laudable effort to promote encouraging and using the talents of writers, actors, study and research in traditional science subjects, we musicians, designers, directors and editors. It also gets risk losing sight of the importance of the arts, humanities overseas revenue of around £300 million, up last year and social sciences, all of which play a role in underpinning by 25 per cent compared with the previous year. our efforts in the creative fields. Research and education All these activities in the audiovisual sector face in fields such as design, interactive media and digital serious theft issues—the theft of intellectual property. content, as well as more conventional creative subjects Copyright theft alone costs the sector an estimated such as art, drama and music, are the lifeblood of our £0.5 billion a year, meaning a loss to the economy of creative industries. £1.2 billion a year and cheating the Exchequer out of Therefore, I ask the Minister to comment on just £85 million a year in VAT. Organised criminals pocket one issue. Is it correct that the current definitions of this cash instead of it going where it should through R&D inadvertently position research for the creative physical and digital distribution. A report last week by industries and other arts and humanities outside the the Strategic Advisory Board for Intellectual Property current R&D and innovation agenda? As I understand revealed that, it, the guidelines for R&D tax credits state: “50 megabytes-per-second broadband access can deliver 200 MP3 “Work in the arts, humanities and social sciences, including music files in five minutes, a DVD of Star Wars in three minutes economics, is not science for the purpose of these Guidelines”, and the complete digitalised works of Charles Dickens in less than 10 minutes”. thus excluding knowledge transfer activity relating to the creative industries, as well as R&D within the The UK Film Council told the authors of the report creative industries themselves, from tax relief of this that there were, kind. Therefore, a sector of industry which is often “just under 100m illegal DVD downloads in 2007 and the global characterised by SMEs and which thrives on cutting-edge film industry is thought to lose more than £4bn a year”, research does not receive the incentive to invest in that through this theft. Respect for Film, which campaigns research. on behalf of the moving image, commissioned Oxford So I urge Ministers, in considering how to achieve Economics to look at how legislative changes might the best value for public funds, not to forget the lesson help. It concluded that tightening laws to tackle physical of the creative industries. We need education and and digital copyright theft would increase UK economic research in the arts, humanities and social sciences. output from this sector by £614 million. That should They are an integral part of the intellectual ecosystem interest any Chancellor of the Exchequer in these of the UK—a part that, yes, provides powerful economic straitened times. benefits but so much more as well. 333 Creative Industries[LORDS] Creative Industries 334

1.28 pm report acknowledges the importance of creative capital. However, its suggestion of a digital rights agency Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury: My Lords, I without statutory powers seems to offer little hope of join in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Bragg, for ending the problem. A collective approach from internet securing this debate. The number and variety of speeches service providers, rights-holders and government is today are an indication of how central the contribution needed to make it more likely for court cases such as of the creative industries is to the UK economy and that brought against the founders of Pirate Bay to also, I argue, to the well-being of the UK. As Sting succeed. Moves by the ISPs to send warning letters to pointed out at the Hay festival, while the country does repeat offenders are welcome and evidence suggests not produce much any more, that they would have a good chance of making a “we do make art and music”. difference. However, we do not think that the “three He is so right. As I have said before, in an era which strikes and you are out” policy being considered in has seen manufacturing jobs halved since 1997, the France is a desirable solution. ISPs cannot be both creative sector is the new economy. As I think the judge and jury. noble Lord, Lord Watson, mentioned, it has been It is to be welcomed that part of the remit of the estimated that music alone contributes £5 billion to proposed rights agency is, according to the noble the UK economy. Lord, Lord Young, in a recent debate on online piracy, Many noble Lords have mentioned festivals today—we “to focus on encouraging respect for the creative industries and have heard about Wales and Edinburgh—and I feel increasing public awareness of the easiest way to access legal that I have to speak up for the south. I went from Hay content”.—[Official Report, 2/4/09; col. 1224.] to the Wylye Valley art trail, a nine-day celebration of the visual arts in and around the Wylye Valley where I I think that we would all agree about the need for live. It was an opportunity to visit artists’ studios, see education alongside regulation. We must not forget the range of artwork being carried out in the area and that we are talking about the creative world—a fast- to meet and talk to artists and craftspeople. Up the moving, dynamic world that the explosion of digital road, the Salisbury festival has for the past two weeks content has nurtured. Alongside the need to find a been host to music, dance, theatre, workshops and solution to online piracy, we need to exercise even, I believe, the noble Lord, Lord Bragg. proportion—cultivate without crushing, as the noble Lord, Lord Bragg, said. But the new world brings with It not just about art, music and theatre; the range it problems for the old. and diversity of the creative industries, as the noble Baroness, Lady Young, pointed out, stretches from Broadcasting has historically made a hugely important fashion to film, advertising, architecture, television contribution to the British creative economy. I declare and video games. The cultural and creative industries an interest as an associate of an independent production make up 7.3 per cent of the national economy, company. The inspired creation of the BBC—followed contributing £60 billion a year and collectively employing by ITV, BBC2 and then Channel 4—has played a 2 million people. We believe that that should be a key crucial role in sustaining and fuelling British creativity. route to getting us out of the recession. But we must More recently, changes in TV terms of trade have seen keep ahead of the game. The UK is lagging behind in remarkable growth in the independent production sector. the deployment of super-fast broadband. The As well as nurturing British talent and British content, Government’s commitment in the interim Digital Britain radio and television channels have provided virtually report to a rollout of two megabytes per second, when free access to all across the creative spectrum. But as the average is already 3.6 megabytes per second, is not the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald and the noble Baroness, nearly ambitious enough and will not provide the Lady McIntosh, said, British broadcasting has reached catalyst for recovery that is required. a critical point. A transition is under way. Competition from digital channels and the internet has led to a One of the greatest threats to the growth of this decline in advertising revenue for the commercial public sector, as mentioned by the noble Lords, Lord Corbett service broadcasters, which is exacerbated by our being and Lord Macdonald, is the knotty problem of the in recession. The funding model, which has seen an protection of intellectual property rights in our digital annual investment of £3 billion in UK-originated content age and the ease with which copyright can be and is, is under severe threat. flouted via online piracy and peer-to-peer file sharing. The report, to which the noble Lord, Lord Corbett, However, the statistic that is most relevant is this: referred, Strategic Advisory Board for Intellectual Property the five terrestrial channels—those that are universally stated that around 7 million people in the UK are available and free—are responsible for about 90 per involved in illegal downloads, costing the economy cent of the investment in UK-originated content; whereas tens of billions of pounds. Of course, this behaviour the new players—the digital channels and the internet— spans from those involved in intentional online piracy contribute less than 10 per cent. That is despite the to many who are uncertain about what is illegal. The fact that together they receive two-thirds of the income fact that so much on the internet is free confuses coming into UK TV. people. The British creative industries need our public service A new settlement is needed between artists, consumers, broadcasters and we must protect the BBC licence fee rights-holders and intermediaries, with copyright at from topslicing and suggestions of arbitrary freezing, its core. Good copyright protection is vital for the as made recently by the Conservative Party. According encouragement of creativity and the health of the to an independent report commissioned by the BBC creative sector. The Government’s interim Digital Britain Trust last year, the BBC’s activities put £5 billion per 335 Creative Industries[4 JUNE 2009] Creative Industries 336 annum into the creative industries. We must not return A number of noble Lords have pointed out the to the days when the BBC was a monopoly. We huge contribution that the creative industries have welcome the Government’s commitment in the interim made to the economy of this country and, as the noble report of the noble Lord, Lord Carter, Digital Britain, Baroness, Lady Young of Hornsey, pointed out, the to maintaining a plurality of public service broadcasters. enormous variety of fields that come under the description. Can the Minister confirm that the Government support Creative industries cover architecture, advertising, the the idea of a partnership between Channel 4 and the performing arts, television, theatre—you name it. It is BBC’s commercial arm Worldwide? immense. As a publisher-broadcaster, Channel 4 makes an In some areas, that contribution is made in spite of enormous contribution to the creative economy. It the obstacles put in the way of that industry. For stimulates competition in the UK’s creative economy example, there are artists’ resale rights, or droits de and it is vital that it survives. A snapshot of the suite, as they are more commonly known. At present, creative industries can be seen in the new manufacturing droit de suite applies to living artists. That imposition industries and the phenomenon of Harry Potter. The by the European Union is difficult and expensive to films are made at a place called Leavesden aerodrome, administer. A recent study shows that fewer than 1,000 where Rolls-Royce used to manufacture helicopter of the 85,000 living artists have received anything, engines. Now instead of that kind of industry, it while the top 10 per cent shared 80 per cent of the employs vast numbers of people from across the creative total money paid out in the first 18 months of the spectrum from the most advanced new media to scheme. practitioners of crafts in the shape of carpenters, painters, actors, and so on. But for this, there needs to The United Kingdom has a derogation, so that be a skills base, and that starts with education. droit de suite applies only to living artists. That is due to expire in 2012, when the droit de suite will be Creativity needs to be nurtured from the, beginning, extended to all European Union artists who have been as the noble Lords, Lord Puttnam and Lord Inglewood, alive in the past 70 years. I urge the Minister to mentioned. Yet creative skills are stifled in our schools impress on Her Majesty’s Government the importance by a system that is dominated by exams and league of extending the exemption for the United Kingdom. tables. With the rejection of the Tomlinson report, the The United Kingdom is, both through its dealers in national curriculum continues to undervalue vocational art and its salesrooms, a leading player in the art qualifications. Creativity needs status, which has been market. Credit crunch permitting, I declare an interest recognised across the Atlantic by President Obama, as a purchaser in the salesrooms. The art market is who has committed to reinvest in arts education. He global, but with none of the leading competing markets, said: such as Asia, Switzerland and New York, having the “In addition to giving our children the science and math skills they need to compete in the new global context, we should also droit de suite, business will inevitably gravitate away encourage the ability to think creatively that comes from a meaningful from the United Kingdom to countries outside the arts education.” European Union, to the detriment of all. Will the Government follow his lead? Some might say that salesrooms and dealers in art In their Creative Britain paper, the Government are not a creative industry, but they provide a marketplace committed to establishing 5,000 apprenticeships annually for a broad range of products, not just the headline- in the creative industries by 2013. There is no money grabbing items that feature in the media. Those ring-fenced. Instead, the commitment turns out to be intermediaries therefore play an important role in the raising the awareness of employers of the benefits of overall prosperity of the creative sector. Impositions apprenticeships. In other words, the commitment is to such as droit de suite can only drive business away a concept, and so far I believe that only 50 places have from these shores. The argument has been made that been provided. The Chancellor said in his Budget only the big-ticket items will disappear. That argument speech that job creation and employment for people of is not valid, as diminishing the marketplace as a whole all skill levels would be vital to long-term recovery. will have a consequent knock-on effect that will end The Government should be investing in these up by reducing the ability to deal in the more mundane apprenticeships. and everyday articles of artistic or rarity value. The creative industries are a key to economic recovery. A significant impediment to prosperity within much Two years ago, the cultural sector got together and of the creative industry is, as the noble Lord, Lord published a manifesto called Values and Visions. I end Corbett, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bonham-Carter, with its words that, mentioned, illegal file-sharing and intellectual piracy. “Britain’s economic prosperity will not depend on industrial The internet has made that possible on such a huge prowess, natural resources or cheap labour but on developing, attracting, retaining and mobilising creativity. In this 21st century, scale that it has been estimated that a quarter of the goods, services and industries driven by knowledge and creativity population has been guilty of that abuse at some stage will define Britain’s competitive edge”. or other. There is no easy answer to that problem. If there was a simple and straightforward solution, it would have evolved in the huge amount of discussion 1.39 pm on the subject and the reams and reams of paper that Lord Howard of Rising: My Lords, I join in the have been produced. thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Bragg, for introducing As my noble friend Lord De Mauley said in a this interesting debate, which has covered such a wide previous debate, in such a fast-changing environment, range of subjects, all under the heading of creative where everything from users’ habits to the technology industries. and the source of the desired content changes at such 337 Creative Industries[LORDS] Creative Industries 338

[LORD HOWARD OF RISING] and economy in a manner that I could scarcely match. bewildering speed, it is impossible to expect the The Government have revised the figure of the creative Government or a regulator to keep up. Instead, we industries contributing 7.3 per cent of the economy; must look to the industry itself to both tempt users we now identify it as 6.4 per cent, which is a slightly away from illegal options and identify the worst abusers. lower contribution but, nevertheless, one that reflects When one looks at what has happened in the past the expansion during the past decade. There is no 25 years in the world of the internet, it is almost doubt that the creative industries are important in the certain that there will be further developments in employment that they provide, their contribution to forthcoming years that no one here today has thought the economy and, as my noble friend identified, our of or can probably even imagine. Given the huge exports. changes that are occurring and will continue to occur All that is not to measure the arts and the creative on an almost daily basis, it is pointless to pretend that industries purely in terms of their economic contribution, legislation can be devised to deal with the problem of but it would be remiss not to mention—I was grateful creative talent being hijacked with no payment. Given to my noble friend for emphasising this fact—that in that proposition, one with which I find it difficult to these straitened times, we need to put our analysis of argue, it is for the industry itself, which has benefited sectors such as the creative industries into an economic so much in the past from technological developments—the perspective. It is a dynamic sector. Over the past wireless, telephone, television, gramophone records decade, it has grown faster than the rest of the economy. and so on, all of which have created huge streams of Employment in creative jobs has grown by more than income—to find a solution, or perhaps even revert to 400,000 since 1997, which means that creative employment life as it was before the days of electronic communication. has grown at twice the rate of employment in the That evolution can already be detected in the world economy as a whole. of popular music. Only recently, live tours were used All of us on the government side—although I think to promote the sale of recordings. Now it is the it is recognised a great deal more widely than that—would recordings that are used to promote the live tours, say that one of the most popular, constructive and which generate enormous sums of money, or there are important decisions taken by the Government on coming the shows to which the noble Lord, Lord Bragg, into office in 1997 was the abolition of charges for referred. There may be a role for government here, but galleries and museums. That has been justified by the the role will be to facilitate the creative industries to enormous, overwhelming demand shown in the attendance act rather than for any direct action by the Government, figures at art galleries and museums since then. As my as some have called for. noble friend indicated, several of our great museums The noble Lord, Lord Bragg, and my noble friend are now part of the national consciousness. That gives Lord Chadlington both referred to the problem of us hope that some of the suggestions made in this bureaucratic interference and red tape of one sort or debate about the necessity for educational change are another. Some of that cannot be avoided. If government partially being met by this extension of opportunity subsidy is accepted, it must be recognised that there and understanding. will be a greater level of government interference. My noble friend Lord Bragg mentioned education, Examples such as that of Kevin Spacey and theatres and other noble Lords commented on it, including my such as the Globe, given by the noble Lord, Lord noble friend Lord Puttnam. I was encouraged by the Bragg, which receive not much, if any, subsidy, fact that an education Minister was sitting beside me demonstrate how effective theatre can be without for the early part of this debate and taking on board interference and subsidy. From that, should one question the important point about the extent to which the whether subsidy can do as much harm as it does good creative industries depend upon the successful education and whether it should therefore be treated with great of our children. I say to those who are anxious about caution, lest creative talent is stifled? If theatres such education that their anxieties might well be allayed by as those can survive, surely television will be able to visits to schools. We all recognise that schools have to continue to produce quality drama without too much meet targets with regard to performance in a range of help. ways, but there is not a junior school in the country Before sitting down, I would like to say that, having that does not show commitment to creative work for listened to him play, my noble friend Lord Colwyn young children. Nor is there any real anxiety that the grossly underestimates his talent as a trumpet player. creative industries may not get the necessary support It is a pleasure to listen to him. from young people emerging from our schools and universities. That argument cannot be sustained if we look at the kind of A-levels that many students take—in 1.46 pm other parts of the House to some disparagement—because Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I share with the arts subjects are pursued to a great extent at A-level, House my gratitude to my noble friend Lord Bragg for and at university level, we have seen enormous expansion his introduction to this very important debate, and for in opportunities in creative industries. I make the stimulating such a range of constructive contributions, obvious point that one of the strongest growths in varied in geographical range and in the issues addressed, educational opportunity in higher education is in media making this an extremely difficult debate to which to studies. That is sometimes regarded in educational respond adequately. I will do my very best to answer circles as some kind of a soft option, but let me the particular points raised. At the same time, I emphasise emphasise that universities providing media studies that in his introduction, my noble friend surveyed the often find that students on those courses are more contribution of the creative industries to our society successful in gaining their first jobs than those on 339 Creative Industries[4 JUNE 2009] Creative Industries 340 more traditional courses. I look upon that as a positive will write to her in some detail after the debate when I factor. I am glad that my noble friend mentioned this will have the chance to address some of the issues that in his introductory remarks. I have not been able to address successfully. My noble friend Lord Bragg will have drawn Intellectual property was raised by a number of considerable solace from the immediate support that noble Lords. The noble Baroness, Lady Bonham-Carter, the noble Lord, Lord Chadlington, gave to the issues emphasised it in her contribution, and my noble friend in this debate. There is no doubt that management in Lord Corbett was concerned about it. The noble Lord, the creative industries is an important dimension of Lord Howard, was generous in his remarks on this success. I was grateful for his contribution because it matter when he identified that this is not an easy issue emphasised skills and talent, which the Government for the Government to address. The Intellectual Property have been concerned to address. We need to look at Office has taken action on intellectual property the way in which the creative industries make demands enforcement and education and is concerned with this upon the educational system and upon training. The crucial issue. However, there is no doubt that we Government are well aware of that, and are very recognise that online piracy on the internet is difficult concerned that action should be taken. My noble for national regulation and government in action. In friend Lord Puttnam, who always speaks on these order for the UK to remain one of the best countries matters with great authority, was reinforced by my in the world in which to produce and invest in content, noble friend Lord MacDonald, who spoke about the we need to ensure that the necessary protection and television industry. The skills agenda is of the greatest incentives are in place for our creative workers. Therefore, importance. We are concerned to develop 5,000 we need to safeguard their achievements. However, the apprenticeships before 2013 in the crucial area of the issue is complex, so our approach is multifaceted. We creative industries. That reflects the fact that the will legislate to require internet service providers to Government recognise that investment in skills is crucial. inform their subscribers when rights holders identify them as engaging in unlawful file sharing, and we will In this context, I mention again that the Government oblige ISPs to maintain a list of individuals identified are concerned about innovation. The success of the by rights holders as being the most frequent copyright creative industries is clearly based on technological infringers. Subject to a court order being obtained, and non-technological innovation, and we are seeking this will allow targeted legal action by rights holders to support and encourage innovation in various ways, against the most active infringers. All this activity will including through NESTA and the Technology Strategy be subject to a code of practice supervised by Ofcom. Board. It will be recognised that £10 million has been invested in the Technology Strategy Board in research None of us underestimates the challenge represented and development relevant to the creative industries. by developing technology. Legislation always takes This is where the Government can play their crucial considerable time to enact and then to enforce, and the role of giving support. pace of change can overwhelm us if we are not careful as we develop that legislation. We are all therefore well Several noble Lords made the point that the creative aware that this is one of the most difficult areas in industries and creative people must not be strangled which to legislate effectively. I want to reassure the by overregulation. The noble Lord, Lord Colwyn, House that we do not have the slightest doubt about criticised the Licensing Act. He has spoken on this its importance to the creative industries and the need issue before. The Government are concerned about to preserve intellectual property and copyright positions. this matter. The noble Lord will know that certain aspects of licensing are vested in local authorities and Several contributions ranged probably more widely that they have important interests to balance. However, than my expertise and even that available to me from I assure him that his point is well taken and the the civil servants was somewhat stretched. As they Government are looking at ways in which they can have both been in the news this week, I know rather relax certain aspects of the regulations in order to more about Nicole Farhi’s husband and his work than sustain, as far as we can, live music in as many about her products. However, I recognise the importance locations as possible. He will recognise that the of the creative work of fashion, which was introduced Government have been reviewing the Licensing Act in by my noble friend Lady McIntosh and the noble that respect. Baroness, Lady Young. In particular, we applaud the point emphasised by the noble Baroness, Lady Young; We have also been concerned to develop our Creative namely, that sustainability is important. Creative fashion Britain initiative. It aims to move the creative industries is an art form which strikes many with the most from the margins to the mainstream of economic and enormous enthusiasm, a point which my noble friend policy thinking and to bring together a range of Lady McIntosh conveyed. The economics of the industry government departments that have relevant responsibilities, and the sustainability of the fabrics it uses are also not only the DCMS, which is bound to be a lead important. I want to emphasise the importance of department in this area, but the Department for Business, those points. Enterprise and Regulatory Reform for regulation and support and, as my noble friend Lady Warwick reminded I am also conscious that the debate had a geographical us, the Department for Innovation, Universities and dimension. My noble friend Lord Bragg worried me a Skills, on higher education. I am having a little difficulty little. I understand entirely his point about some of the in replying to the noble Baroness’s rather precise point ravages of the Industrial Revolution, which were not about taxation and support. However, I assure her always attended by a skilful, creative force in terms of that the Government are fully aware of her important art. I recall however that in some of our major industrial point about where incentives can be adduced, and I cities, major industrialists were most concerned to 341 Creative Industries[LORDS] Science, Technology and Engineering 342

[LORD DAVIES OF OLDHAM] their quality. There is clearly real knowledge of and construct some surpassing examples of Victorian art commitment to the creative industries in your Lordships’ form, including architecture, to include some outstanding House. As so often, this House stands for what is best Victorian art and what had preceded it. We should pay in Parliament and in the country. I beg leave to withdraw tribute to the Industrial Revolution for some of the the Motion for Papers. outstanding art galleries and museums in our northern cities and the Midlands. Motion withdrawn. I could not possibly allow the contributions made by those concerned with other parts of the country, particularly Wales, to pass without reference. The Science, Technology and Engineering noble Lord, Lord Rowe-Beddoe, suggested that when Debate the cities of Britain make a bid to become the city of culture, with which Liverpool was blessed in terms of 2.08 pm its outstanding position in 2008, they be put in alphabetical order. I note that Cardiff begins with a “C” and that, Moved By Lord Haskel therefore, a little special pleading was going on. All To call attention to the contribution of science, sides know the importance of Welsh culture, particularly technology and engineering to the United Kingdom; with regard to music and poetry. I am grateful for and to move for Papers. those contributions. I inevitably am short of time for covering such a Lord Haskel: My Lords, it is very appropriate that wide-ranging debate. However, I again emphasise that we should have this debate on a European election we have been debating areas in which we all have an day, because science, technology and engineering are intrinsic interest because of the joy and advantage we becoming more political and more central to our lives all derive from the work of the creative industries. Of and are part of our membership of the European those, television is bound to be very important because Union. of its appeal to the nation. Therefore, I emphasise to the noble Baroness, Lady Bonham-Carter, to my noble I say this for two reasons. First, we look to science, friend Lord Corbett, and to my noble friend Lord technology and engineering to solve our problems, Macdonald, who spoke with his usual authority in such as coping with climate change, looking after an this area, that we are addressing crucial support for ageing population, feeding a growing population, finding aspects of the industry which are under pressure. We new sources of energy, lifting billions out of poverty, all know the difficulties of independent television and competing in today’s globalised knowledge economy the pressures on the provision of regional news and and even fighting terrorism. The list is endless. programmes. There is no doubt that the BBC has an The second reason why we are going to hear a lot important part to play in responding to those challenges. more about science and engineering is that of balance. In just over a week’s time, my noble friend Lord Carter Although an economy leaning heavily towards financial will report on digital Britain and the future of the services served us well for a number of years, it has media in the broader sense, of which television is very turned out to be unreliable. The economy emerging important. We will be able to discuss this more intensively from this crisis needs to be more evenly balanced and at that time. I hope noble Lords will therefore forgive spread. This is Prudence in her latest guise. Much of me for not being able to speak too intensively about the burden of achieving this will fall on science, technology that aspect now. and engineering, which must take the strain. I believe Finally, my noble friend Lady McIntosh said that that they can because we have all the ingredients—some one of the things she enjoyed most about the opening good and some not so good—to create a balanced speech made by our noble friend Lord Bragg was that economy. What we must find is the will and the skills he filled the House with cheer in these somewhat to marshal them effectively. gloomy times, which he did. We all recognise the These elements are not just science, technology and difficulties that the economy faces and the difficulty of engineering taken in isolation; there are social and resources for aspects of the creative industries. But we cultural factors, too. A society that accepts and does should also recognise the extraordinary advantage not demonise technological progress is important. A that we have. My noble friend described London as balanced economy requires a culture that accepts new the city of delights. Whether or not we accept that at knowledge and technological progress as well as the face value, we know what he means; namely, that institutions that seek it. It requires us to create and London is the world capital for art. It leads an immensely nurture businesses and companies that use science, creative country and this debate has shown all its technology and engineering to bring about economic richness and its importance. We should support it in and commercial progress. I think that we have such every way we can. companies to a much greater degree than is normally accepted. Amazingly, we also have a number of charities devoted to developing science, technology and engineering, 2.07 pm and I pay tribute to those who set them up. Lord Bragg: My Lords, I thank all those distinguished But having these individual ingredients is not enough. speakers from whom I have learnt so much. The They have to be brought together in order to be debate was very impressive and very informed. Alas, I marshalled effectively. We have institutions such as the do not have the time to point out your Lordships’ Technology Strategy Board to do that, as well as the individual contributions, which is a great shame, given knowledge transfer networks that bring a new and 343 Science, Technology and Engineering[4 JUNE 2009] Science, Technology and Engineering 344 different focus on innovation. We also have to bring has changed, partly thanks to the popularisation of different cultures together. Science, technology and science. The current obsession for forensic science, engineering need the social sciences to help us to solve stimulated by television and news programmes, teaches our problems. How can we persuade people to change students a lot about science without them realising it. their ways so that we are able to cope with climate Thanks to organisations such as STEM, with over change? 18,000 ambassadors—yes, 18,000 and rising—to schools Like Martin Luther King, I have a dream. My and colleges, young people are having their feel for dream is that all these elements and centres of excellence science, technology and engineering turned into something will come together. The result will be a balanced more real. Science, technology and engineering are not economy. Let us take a closer look at each of these second class any more. The ambassadors also do elements and see whether I have reason to be confident. valuable work with young people’s concerns about the Mine is an overview, because other noble Lords know environment. We have to persuade them that science, an awful lot more about each of the individual elements. technology and engineering need not be dirty and However, science, technology and engineering are changing polluting. These ambassadors do valuable work in our society whether we like it or not. You only have to that area. use the phrase “Digital Britain” to demonstrate how The last few years have seen science, technology accepting of new technologies we now are. Technology and engineering become embedded in our political life has changed our lives in ways that we find useful and and in the Civil Service. The Office of Science and acceptable, but that has not happened purely by accident. Technology was created in 1993 by a Conservative We used to think that, in order to persuade people to Government carrying out a promise made in a Labour accept science, all that we had to do was explain Party manifesto. Is science transcending politics? I it—the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, chaired a committee hope so. We have a Chief Scientific Adviser who that produced an important paper on this. But that reports directly to the Prime Minister and a scientist in view was too simple and too condescending. We now most government departments. Scientists are central know that science must understand the concerns of to the green agenda, and even the security services society. Indeed, many institutions in this country are have recently appointed a scientific adviser. However, dedicated to doing this: universities, charities, museums, we are still waiting for the Treasury to appoint one. We science learning centres and media centres. Also, National are well served by our own Parliamentary Office of Science and Engineering Week engages thousands of Science and Technology, and we must not forget the people from the bottom up. work of the parliamentary Select Committees. No All this is dedicated to building mutual trust. In other nation in the world has a structure like that. The fact, mutual trust helps scientists and the public to new American Administration are moving towards it; make more informed choices. Trust also enriches the when appointing several scientists to senior posts, culture of science, which is especially valuable when President Obama said that “promoting science” is, the public have to choose between opposing views on “about ensuring that facts and evidence are never twisted or issues such as MMR. Instead of making decisions obscured by politics or ideology”. based on prejudice, people make judgments based on I say amen to that. It seems to me that socially, the values of those making the case. As long as we do culturally, academically and politically we have the not underestimate the public, we will progress towards ingredients to fulfil my dream of a balanced economy. making science, technology and engineering socially What about business and industry? Do we have acceptable. Much of this has been brought about by sufficient commercial strength? Over the past 25 years, the great institutions that have become part of our we have relied on consumer spending and financial culture, such as the Royal Society, the Royal Institution, services to expand our economy. As a result, industry the Royal Academy of Engineering and the medical has declined from about 30 per cent of our GDP to colleges. All are proudly dedicated to continuing education 17 per cent. It is this that we have to reverse at a time and knowledge and to raising standards among people when private spending will be far more restrained. working in their specialties. There is some good news. Our ability to attract Central to the role of science, technology and inward investment demonstrates that Britain is a good engineering in our culture, society and a balanced place to do business. Things are changing. We are economy are our universities and colleges. Others can breaking down the artificial difference between elaborate better than I can, but our universities and manufacturing and services. We are breaking down colleges perform pretty well in terms of papers and the barriers between pure and applied science. Moreover, citations. Writing in Science magazine, Tony Blair said the financial sector will also have to reform its priorities. that, Balance means thinking in industrial terms as much as “the science base is the absolute bedrock of our economic financial. This means moderating demands for the performance”. short-term results looked for by many financial institutions, So it is disappointing that, in the recent Budget, the which conflict with the longer-term needs of scientific science research budget is to be cut by £106 million, and technological development. Surely this is a prime even though this money is to be reinvested in key areas example of the need to moderate sectional interests in of economic potential. I hope that the Minister can line with the national interest. put our minds at rest on this. But our industrial base is small. We cannot do Science education does not start at university. It everything; we need to choose. There is a great deal of starts at school. In my time, science and technology talk about the future being in low carbon. The recent were for the dumber students like me. Fortunately, this Budget earmarked nearly half the strategic fund for 345 Science, Technology and Engineering[LORDS] Science, Technology and Engineering 346

[LORD HASKEL] 2.24 pm this purpose. But this is a risky business, because Lord Freeman: My Lords, it is a real pleasure to low-carbon energy is likely to remain more expensive follow the noble Lord, Lord Haskel. I congratulate than the traditional sources. him not only on selecting this topic for debate but on There are many other economic opportunities, however. his excellent and wide-ranging speech. I do not always An illustration is the 11 potential sites for nuclear agree with what he argues in your Lordships’ Chamber power stations that have been identified: 40 per cent of but on this occasion I agree 100 per cent with what he the cost is in their building but 60 per cent is in the said. equipment that goes into them. John Rose of Rolls-Royce I declare some interests in the subject. I am the recently listed this work: high value-added manufacturing, honorary chairman of Cambridge University’s technology robotics, electro-mechanical engineering, materials science, transfer office, Cambridge Enterprise Ltd, and I have complex software and control systems, and, the Minister a financial interest in about a dozen high-technology will be pleased to hear, all this on the back of a companies either as a director or an investor. I should privately financed project. therefore like to concentrate on one specific aspect of Is this not a good focus for the strategic fund the challenge facing the United Kingdom in developing announced in the Budget? Is this not an opportunity and encouraging science, technology and engineering to bring our businesses up to date in these new technologies activity, at the start-up end. It involves pre-revenue so that we can compete internationally? Is this not an high-technology companies which rely largely on seed opportunity for businesses large and small to funding not only from the Government but from commercialise new techniques? I hope that the Minister universities. This is the seed corn for the future in will say something about this fund. terms of developing the quality of science, technology A key ingredient of a balanced economy, of course, and engineering in this country. is innovation. Not only does innovation find new and I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, that the better ways of doing and making things, but it is also great resources in this country, for which we are world required to deal with society’s problems. How do we famous, will solve our practical problems. The previous design hospital fabrics and furniture so that they look debate might lift the spirit but this debate deals with good, perform well and help to get rid of MRSA? the urgent practical problems and challenges facing These interfaces are where a lot of innovation happens this country. nowadays and make it less risky. It is a pleasure to see the Minister, the noble Lord, There used to be a wide range of organisations Lord Drayson, in his place. He was a great loss to the aiming to improve the technology and innovation Ministry of Defence but I am delighted that he is back capability of British business. The task of joining in government as Minister for Science and Innovation. them up and marshalling them was given to the This debate and his concluding remarks will be followed Technology Strategy Board. To this has been added with great interest by the royal academies and by many the task of responding to the challenges that society universities interested in this subject. makes on business and industry for things such as The United Kingdom, if not pre-eminent, leads the low-carbon vehicles, intelligent transport systems, low- world in innovation in this field. Perhaps I may compare impact buildings and assisted living. We seem to be our great universities with those in the United States. achieving some focus thanks to the various innovation We develop and register more innovations but perhaps platforms that have been prepared by the TSB. exploit fewer of them commercially and financially. Some of this work takes place through the knowledge However, we have a proud record to defend and nurture. transfer networks. I declare an interest as honorary The problem which I am identifying occurs at a very president of perhaps the largest one, Materials UK. early stage in the development of technology: financing Again, these networks help to make innovation happen the development and proving of the technology before rather than just leaving it to chance. This work is it is exploited commercially. important because business will not automatically do Many initiatives and programmes are available in these things on its own. This kind of joined-up working this country. Perhaps I may single out, within the is better developed here than in most other countries. public sector, Partnerships UK. I pay tribute to what it Even so, it can be and must be done better because the has done, but it is very small in comparison with the TSB and its networks are an important part of our resources needed; its total capitalisation, I think, is of balanced economy. the order of £45 million. There are also great In the short term, we all know that the urgent foundations—in part led largely by the noble Lord, problem is to ensure that business and industry have Lord Sainsbury, and a very generous benefaction to the credit available to survive the current crisis and to many universities in the development of science and hold on to their staff and to their skills. But I think technology—individual business angels; some venture that later there is a good chance of my dream becoming capital companies; Capital for Enterprise, sponsored a reality. Recessions stimulate and accelerate change; by the Department for Business, Enterprise and new and different business models and markets emerge. Regulatory Reform; and corporate venture capital Yes, we have all the ingredients to achieve a balanced funds. The great problem is that this traditional source economy. All we need in this changing landscape is the of financing is beginning to dry up, presenting a real skill, the imagination and the will to make it all work crisis in the development of technology in this country. in the way that we want. I hope that the Minister Once the tap has been turned off, we will pay, five or agrees. I look forward to hearing the remarks of other 10 years down the road, in the lack of innovation that noble Lords. I beg to move. has been commercially exploited. 347 Science, Technology and Engineering[4 JUNE 2009] Science, Technology and Engineering 348

Before I follow the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, in the idea of a state-provided but privately run or privately turning to the Government’s latest proposals I ought managed fund for high-tech start-up businesses. Richard to acknowledge some present sources of alleviation. Lambert, the director-general of the CBI, deserves So far as the European Union is concerned, the specific credit for helping to derive that suggestion. Commission has just announced a doubling of the In conclusion, the three principles that should govern funding for future and emerging technologies, from this new initiative on spending public money to support about £88 million this year to double that by 2015. high-technology, early start-up enterprises are, first, That is warmly welcomed, although sometimes bidding that we need an allocation of funds, and the £250 million for these funds presents a serious challenge in terms of that has been talked about by the Government in your both energy and the detail required. However, it is Lordships’ House is of the right order of magnitude; certainly welcome. secondly, we must embrace the private sector to help The public procurement pull-through, which the to manage and exploit the assets available, because I noble Lord, Lord Drayson, has talked about in the do not think it should be run entirely by the public past—in other words, the public sector providing financial sector; and, lastly, that we ought to be picking winners, resources in order to pull technologies through before backing technology that has already had proof of they are either developed further in the public sector concept in our universities or research institutes and or commercialised in the private sector—has an important technology that is either proven or capable of being role to play. Again, I pay tribute to the All-Party proven. We do not want to spread the available money Parliamentary Small Business Group, which is specifically too thinly across many projects all over the country. focusing on how to improve public sector procurement The time to act is now, and the Minister’s support is at the moment. One must also congratulate the British vital to the success of the project. Library’s Business and IP Centre; it is spending a relatively small sum but it is an excellent resource for 2.34 pm young technologists and small business men seeking information about patents, intellectual property and Baroness Greenfield: My Lords, I congratulate the comparable technologies around the world. I congratulate noble Lord, Lord Haskel, on drawing attention to this the British Library on what it has already achieved. timely topic. As a research neuroscientist at Oxford University and director of the Royal Institution of The Department for Business, Enterprise and Great Britain, I endorse, and shall try to amplify, Regulatory Reform has shown focus in producing an some of the noble Lord’s comments. A good first step excellent pamphlet called Solutions for Business.Itis could be to identify some of the bottlenecks in scientific the first occasion when all the various sources of culture that are preventing UK plc from making the financial advice have been drawn together. most of the current opportunities. In terms of what is currently available, I single out First, there is the relationship of science with the Scottish Enterprise as quite a sensible model for the media. By definition, it is the print and broadcast regional development agencies or whatever succeeds media that outreach with greatest impact to all aspects them. Scottish Enterprise takes the lead in providing of our society. While the recent coverage of swine flu matching funds for small high-technology start-ups, was comprehensive and, for the most part, accurate, particularly those being spun out of the Scottish many scientists would feel that there is still a long way universities. It has been bold and brave in backing a to go before we can with complete confidence consign number of companies, and it has already had its to the past the all too familiar demonisation of science successes. and scientists, the sensationalist, oversimplified reportage I turn to the kernel of my argument: all this activity, of facts and the wariness and aversion many scientists expenditure and support is not enough. In the Budget, have of talking to the press. the Chancellor talked about a £750 million strategic At a basic level, I see the difficulty lying in a conflict investment fund to take over from and provide much of different cultures between scientists, journalists and, the same services as the old Industrial and Commercial indeed, politicians. The ensuing clash is one of very Finance Corporation and 3i, until 3i decided to pull different agendas and timescales. In order to be an out of its traditional role of nurturing new technology. effective politician, one has to have some kind of Then, on 20 April, the Prime Minister made a promise platform and power, and the normal timescale of at Loughborough University; the idea was to set up a operations is, say, a couple of years. High on the state-backed bank to address the funding gap for agenda is sensitivity to public opinion. Meanwhile, a start-up ventures, so this was a specific proposal derived scientist has not traditionally needed to communicate from the bigger innovation, the strategic investment directly with the general public, but top of their list is fund. Now we read today in the newspapers of the the need for large amounts of money to fund experiments appointment of Mr Christopher Rowlands, formerly that are increasingly dependent on expensive high-tech of 3i, who is going to lead an official review of how a equipment and escalating running costs. Without state-backed bank should be set up, reporting to the significant grant money, scientists cannot even begin noble Lord, Lord Mandelson. It would be helpful if to ply their trade, and even then they have to do so in a the Minister could confirm that that is indeed the case, zig-zag progress that can constitute a whole career, along with the terms of reference and a timescale for spanning decades. the review. Compare the mindset that will most likely subsequently We should be grateful to the National Endowment result with that of the journalist, with deadlines of for Science, Technology and the Arts—NESTA—and hours at most, and the defining goal—enabling them the British Venture Capital Association for supporting to do their job—of attracting and retaining large 349 Science, Technology and Engineering[LORDS] Science, Technology and Engineering 350

[BARONESS GREENFIELD] 2002 on recruitment and retention of women in science, numbers of readers, listeners or viewers. It is easy to we found that much needed to be done. Today, still see how there may be some bafflement and lack of only 7.5 per cent science, engineering and technology understanding on all respective sides, as a long-term, professors in UK universities are female. and always provisional, discovery of a truth seems to be sacrificed in favour of a dramatic and usually scary Aside from the need to persuade schoolgirls to look conclusion which, above all, makes for an immediate beyond sexist stereotypes, and the importance of giving soundbite. Alternatively, it is easy to imagine how a women of professorial level the confidence and support genuine inquiry by a journalist for covering a scientific to apply for glass-ceiling positions, another problem news item might be met with, at best, an incomprehensible, between these two stages became apparent that can be circumlocutory response or, at worst, prevarication solved, not by a slippery cultural shift, but by simple and frank hostility from the scientist. resources. Money could be ring-fenced for those, including men, who had taken significant time off at a formative Ways forward for building bridges between such stage in their career, to look after a baby. Indeed, the otherwise disparate sectors are starting to make their retention rate of female science, engineering and mark. For example, Sense About Science, an initiative technology graduates is merely 25 per cent compared started by the noble Lord, Lord Taverne, and the with the male retention rate of 40 per cent. In a study Science Media Centre at the Royal Institution have conducted by the Royal Society of Chemistry in done much over the past few decades to create a conjunction with the UK Resource Centre for Women common forum where different agendas and timescales in Science, Engineering and Technology, this so-called can be reconciled. Yet such initiatives are still not “leaky pipeline” was attributed to the uncertainty of supported by all scientists as part of their mainstream the short-term contracts available and the inconsistency activity, and some journalists can still be prone to with raising a family. exaggerate, oversimplify and scaremonger. We will see a truly effective outcome of this culture Building on the aforementioned study, here is a clash when we have not only laudable initiatives but a solution that, while not being easy to implement in the buy-in from all sectors; when every rank and file current economic climate, is at least simple to scientist sees it as part of their job to help—yes, conceptualise. It is to put aside a realistic level of actively help—the media; and when every news journalist funds so that those not in established posts and returning taking a scientific angle sees their job as really helping from childcare—probably mainly women—could compete to empower their readers and viewers with knowledge, for fellowships for re-establishing their research, not rather than giving them a quick frisson of second-hand with the same probability, or lack of it, of winning the horror. Prizes and acclaim should be given to journalists lottery, but with a chance that ensured the scheme who can turn this culture around, while more weight worked to bring back effective and significant numbers should be given in the scientific research assessment of talented young scientists into the research workforce. exercise and in giving research grants to scientists With the advent of an estimated 2.9 million new conspicuously working hard to democratise science. science jobs in the UK by 2017, it is vital to ensure that both sexes receive an equal opportunity in benefiting A second bottleneck also arises from another culture from this growth. clash, this time between scientists and the private sector. Although the landscape has been transformed The fourth bottleneck is perhaps the most pervasive over the past few decades in the collaboration of and relevant to this debate: scientific literacy. There universities with industry, there is still a residual mindset may be ever fewer individuals who are like one old endemic within the technology transfer units of some lady who apparently said she would never eat tomatoes universities, and indeed in the attitudes of the scientists with genes in them, but if we are to make the most of themselves, that prevents realisation of the opportunities the 21st century, then science, engineering and technology for commercialising on basic research. The respect of are still not where they need to be—at the heart of the business community for apparently highly paid society, and in the hearts and minds of the next management, the need to submit patent applications generation. before publication and seemingly rigid milestones are as unpalatable for scientists as a high burn rate, jargon- Cultural shifts cannot be realised overnight, but a ridden incomprehensible technology and a lack of scheme that could well give such a nebulous idea some obvious exit strategies are to disenchanted potential substance comes from bringing together three very investors in biotechnology. different, seemingly unrelated facts. First, the general public like attending science-based events where they Moreover, basic research should not be unattractive can interact and challenge scientists speaking in general just because relatively little money is required, and lectures, debates or panels. At the Royal Institution we hence little return possible, for seemingly blue-sky have an audience of 200-strong on average up to three research. The Weizmann Institute in Israel, for example, times a week throughout the year. Secondly, on most a research centre dedicated to basic non-applied research, weekends and many weekday evenings, the lecture none the less has one of the highest numbers of theatres of most universities lie empty and unused. patents and one of the most stellar commercialisation Thirdly, many academic scientists who are mid-career track records in the world. Surely there are lessons for in lectureships often feel that they are on a treadmill of us to learn here. recycling the same old courses, the endless audits A third bottleneck is the frequent disempowerment and—even more endless and demoralising—the writing of up to 50 per cent of the potential scientific workforce. of grant applications, with a success rate of about When I headed up a report for the Government in 10 per cent to 15 per cent. How can they become 351 Science, Technology and Engineering[4 JUNE 2009] Science, Technology and Engineering 352 reinvigorated to persist with cutting-edge research? noble Lords chose to speak in the debate on creative How can they act as role models for their students? industries earlier today. It occurs to me that without And how might they widen their general skills? the contribution of science and technology, British The answer could lie in drawing together these creative industry would be very limited indeed. From three disparate strands. Imagine a scenario where every the printing press to wireless technology, from cinema weekend and perhaps during the week, your local to videogames, from television to broadband, the university opened its doors to science events for the framework of scientific and technological progress public. The science faculty who spent time running has shaped the growth of creativity industries. Indeed, these events would gain new and exciting experiences, the Digital Britain report compares the creation of new skills and insights, while being paid in teaching broadband infrastructure with electrification in the remission or, indeed, overtime. In turn, the funds Edwardian age in its power to transform. This manifests could come from a socially-sensitive box office fee—after itself in many ways. Last week, Scottish scientists all, it should be and could be the equivalent of a good announced that they have been able to recreate digitally, night out at the cinema—plus subsidy from the appropriate then build, a lost musical instrument, the lituus. government departments. I gather that a beacon scheme So new digital technology means a seismic shift in that is being developed might meet some of these many industries, from internet radio to classical music. needs. In the same way, scientific research is reshaping many Everyone would win: the rank and file science of our most pressing social problems. After all, without academic would gain skills for talking to the media the pioneering work of Crick, Watson and Sir Alec and, indeed, for gaining more of a “wood” rather than Jeffreys, the current debate over DNA fingerprinting “trees” perspective of their subject. The universities would not be possible. would gain by having more motivated staff and the Science is also the key to climate change. A fortnight buy-in and support of their local community. The ago, the new American energy secretary, Steven Chu, general public would gain by having an immediate and suggested we paint our roofs white to reflect sunlight interactive route to scientific literacy. The Government and reduce demand for air-conditioning. He proposed would gain by having a society eager and informed this because research by the Lawrence Berkeley National enough to make the most of what science, engineering Laboratory suggests that changing the colour of and technology have to offer. 100 square metres of roof could offset 100 tonnes of While a “change in culture” is an easy and frequently carbon dioxide emissions a year. Yet some argue that used phrase, it is hard to define operationally, let alone focusing on adaptive technologies will distract people realise. But what is certain is that such changes are from the need to reduce their carbon footprint. This harder still without resources. Surely relatively modest highlights one of the problems with our attitude to sums of money invested in, for example, initiatives for science: a lack of cultural belief in the power of women scientists and the democratisation of science technology to transform lives. for the public within their local communities, would As the Times said on Tuesday, this year is the 50th give disproportionately valuable returns for making anniversary of CP Snow’s famous “Two Cultures” the most of science, engineering and technology in the lecture. Today we have a choice between “two attitudes” 21st century. to science. The first holds that science and technology can somehow be reserved for a caste of qualified 2.44 pm researchers, whose ideas emerge as bolts from the blue for the rest of society. This attitude isolates hard Lord Bhattacharyya: My Lords, I pay tribute to my science from economics, and scientific research from noble friend Lord Haskel for leading this debate with the real world. It can be a comfortable arrangement. the knowledge and precision that is his hallmark. I Scientists receive a small tithe of public expenditure, entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Freeman, stability, and a certain status. In return, they are about funding start-ups. expected to produce research their peers regard as I begin by declaring an interest: as director of useful, while the wider population waits hopefully for Warwick Manufacturing Group at the University of scientific solutions. I believe that this attitude creates Warwick, I have long believed that science and technology two castes—those who do science and those who have are central to almost every issue we face as a nation. science done to them. This might explain why, despite Over the past decade, science and technology issues outstanding research being done in our universities, have become frontline news, and academic research only 1 per cent of British businesses say that universities has increased in prestige. At the same time, the increase are of high importance to them as a source of innovation. in higher education funding has meant expansion, a Of course, companies which fully engage in research growth visible in the new buildings we see on every and development can gain great success. My noble university campus. friend the Minister is certainly aware of the enormous Of course, issues remain, and are high profile. It is value that innovative research can give to a business—after usually difficulties, not successes, which command all, he has proven its importance himself. The Government immediate attention. Despite this, I think most of us have made great efforts in this direction, establishing will agree that the past decade has been, if not a the Technology Strategy Board and publishing the golden age, then at least an era of significant silver. innovation White Paper. The research councils, especially This increased funding, as well as our growing the Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council, understanding of the world, means there is hardly any now include the economic impact of research when aspect of our national life where scientific research is evaluating projects. Despite this progress, the sharing of not making a vital contribution. I noticed that many innovation and success between academia and industry 353 Science, Technology and Engineering[LORDS] Science, Technology and Engineering 354

[LORD BHATTACHARYYA] health because we had both a strong pharmaceutical is too often the exception when it needs to be the rule. industry and, in the NHS, a ready market for its To change this, we must embrace a new attitude of products. constant engagement between science and society, as Yet the equally innovative work of George Gray the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, mentioned. We must and Cyril Hilsum, the pioneers of liquid crystal displays, encourage scientists to focus on our shared challenges found a market not in Britain but in the companies of and translate their research into reality. the Far East that saw the market value of their work. I At the same time, we must give independent researchers can speak from personal experience. When I served as the freedom to innovate, challenge and experiment. In a young apprentice at Lucas Industries, the company other words, we choose where the goal posts are was a global leader. Yeta lack of investment in innovation placed, but free up the path to goal. If you ask a dozen meant Lucas was very quickly overtaken by emerging scientists to reduce carbon emissions, you will get a companies from Germany and Japan. They are now dozen research proposals. Perhaps half of them will global giants, while Lucas no longer exists. work. The trouble is, as John Wanamaker famously The Government have increased the research budget said about advertising, you do not know which half. enormously, yet we have not seen British competitiveness The same is true of spin-off companies. Not all innovators improve as a result. That is why we must not let will succeed; there can be no guarantee of success. research breakthroughs from British universities be Risk is at the very core of innovative research. Innovation transferred from the laboratory to the wider world by always involves venturing into the unknown. We must others. We must help innovative companies and researchers develop an attitude of embracing risk by supporting develop scientific and economic goals together and innovation anywhere it can be found—in businesses, back their efforts to take their successes to the marketplace. universities, corporate research laboratories or the work The challenge that our society faces, from climate of a young entrepreneur. change to healthcare, are too great to be ignored by The innovation White Paper set out some useful scientists, while the progress that scientists are making, steps for achieving this. As it suggests, we should offer from low- carbon cars to virtual surgery, is too useful an “innovation lottery”, so that it is easier for companies to be ignored by society. To meet our social challenges to get funding for small-scale research with academic and help our economy grow, we must bring science partners. We also need a cultural change, so that and society together. knowledge transfer is central to academic life. We must bring manufacturers, researchers and customers 2.56 pm together, so that they can share ideas to improve products, from batteries to plastic electronics. Viscount Montgomery of Alamein: My Lords, I join other noble Lords in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Next, we should remove the hurdles, the bureaucracy Haskel, for his thoughtful and comprehensive review and the form-filling that can blight new research projects. and introduction to this subject. It is a pleasure to The noble Lord, Lord May, who is not with us today, follow the noble Lord, Lord Bhattacharyya, who speaks addressed this recently in his role as president-elect of with great authority about the Midlands, an area the British Science Association. The noble Lord pointed which was, is and will remain of major manufacturing out that the last Research Assessment Exercise would importance. have prevented Crick and Watson getting shared credit for their research. This type of box-ticking, while well Most of my remarks will be Cambridge-oriented, intentioned, is anathema to innovation. One of the and I declare many prejudices in that respect. Sixty issues with the RAE is that the evaluation between years ago, I was coming to the end of my first year as economic impact and perceived research excellence is an undergraduate in the engineering faculty at Cambridge. tilted towards the latter and not balanced. This is right I had always wished to be an engineer, but very quickly for “blue sky” research subjects, but in applied sciences, realised that I was not competent enough, as did my gaining substantial economic benefit is a key to success first employer. However, it was the most marvellous and we need to be much bolder. These barriers to discipline in which to be educated and an invaluable innovation typify much of the Research Assessment training for life, for which I remain eternally grateful. Exercise. That must change. Indeed, it stood me in good stead when, many years later, in a very long business career—mostly overseas—I However, we must go further than lotteries or replacing became for eight years a non-executive director of a the RAE. We need a transformation of our attitude to group of engineering companies. Later still, I had the science and society. We should double, treble or even honour to succeed the noble Baroness, Lady Platt of quadruple the money available to fund applied science Writtle, as honorary president of the Cambridge projects such as technology demonstrators, incubators University Engineering Association. In this respect, and low-carbon research. The Technology Strategy my noble friend Lady Greenfield can take some comfort, Board has a budget of £1 billion for the next three as the next director of the engineering faculty in years for all applied research. To make a real contribution, Cambridge is no less than a distinguished scientific we should invest at least £1 billion each year. lady. Naturally, business must play its part in bringing My links with Cambridge continue, as my daughter’s science to the heart of society. Let me be blunt: if eldest son has just completed his second year as an British companies do not invest in exciting new undergraduate in the engineering faculty. I therefore technologies and products, companies in other countries remain very closely connected and can see how radically will. Sir James Black’s work on Beta blockers made a things are changing since my days there. And of course major contribution to both our physical and economic in this debate, we shall listen with great pleasure to my 355 Science, Technology and Engineering[4 JUNE 2009] Science, Technology and Engineering 356 noble friend Lord Rees of Ludlow, a most distinguished I am pleased that my noble friend Lord Haskel scientist and, I am glad to say, master of my former raised this subject, because engineering has been my college. life and is not really debated in this House or the other The UK’s track record is one of having been very place nearly often enough. It is interesting to note that good at inventions such as TV,radar and jet propulsion— the earlier debate today on the contribution of the the list is endless—but less good at exploitation and creative industries drew a full house in this Chamber, commercialisation of these developments. However, whereas the discussion of engineering is listened to by this has now changed, and Cambridge University, only a select few. That is the norm, and it is what I am among others, has devised an excellent system for it. going to talk about. First, I declare my interest as a Among many incredible developments—many during fellow of the Institution of Civil Engineers and an the time that my noble friend Lord Broers was at honorary fellow of a variety of other institutions of Cambridge—there has been, for instance, the Institute the same kind. I spent more than 20 years in consulting of Manufacturing within the engineering faculty. I am engineering as an engineering designer, followed by reliably informed that there are no fewer than 1,800 25 or so years as an engineering journalist—something small industries within 10 miles of the centre of in which I still dabble in a small way. I believe that my Cambridge. That is major progress and demonstrates monthly column in the Highways magazine has four what can happen as a result of scientific and engineering readers, one of whom is the editor. I do not know who developments. the other three are. What are the obvious areas of opportunity that will I want to talk not just about the contribution that assist with our national economic recovery? There are science and engineering make to the United Kingdom, many, but I shall mention just a few. They include civil which has been well rehearsed by other noble Lords, infrastructure—in which we are world-leading but about whether that contribution is properly recognised consultants—energy efficiency, as has been mentioned and, if not, what, if anything, can be done to remedy already in this debate, security and materials. This last that. We know that generally speaking, with the item will be crucial in the evolution of nuclear fusion. construction industry rather than engineering as a In that case, the science has been solved at Culham, whole, when a notable building such as the Millennium but is now being developed further at the large Dome is discussed in the press, its design is attributed international experimental plant, ITER, in southern to the architect—in this case, my noble friend Lord France. The problem has moved from a scientific one Rogers. There is a sense in which the architect is to an engineering one—in other words, to find new entitled to some recognition for the dome, which is not materials that will withstand the very high temperatures a dome at all, of course. Why it has been called a within the combustion chamber and in the electromagnets dome, I do not know, as it actually looks like a saucer that are necessary. It is not an easy task, but it is turned upside down. It is really a big top, such as essential to get it right and find the solution if we are Bertram Mills used to have, or a tent or marquee. to solve our energy problems in the long-term future. However, let us call it a dome, as that is what the press It is clear that science and engineering are taken likes to call it, although engineers prefer to describe it quite seriously in this Parliament, particularly within differently. The real designers of the dome were not the various all-party groups on this subject, such as the architects, however much they put into it, but Buro the Parliamentary and Scientific Committee, which Happold. It is a complete engineering structure. has been ably chaired to date by Doug Naysmith in another place and has now been taken over by Ian There are many more such examples. The lead Taylor. All those initiatives, like the college of science designer of the Millennium Bridge, which wobbles, committee and the chemistry society committee, are was not the noble Lord, Lord Foster, but Adams. I extremely valuable. It is also extremely encouraging noticed that the noble Lord, Lord Foster, came forward that the debate will be answered by the noble Lord, with a certain amount of verve on the opening day, Lord Drayson, who is, I am glad to say, a nuclear raising his arms as he does, but that when it started to fusion supporter and the only engineer in the Government. wobble he ran for his life and said that this was really a I have always thought that government would be matter for Arup—which was true. There is also the improved with more engineers trained to produce Pompidou Centre, which was really designed by Ted solutions that work, which is their motivation, and Happold and Peter Rice, again of Arup, which fewer economists, but that is a prejudice which I shall again invited Richard Rogers and Piano to come in as no doubt continue to hold as things develop in future. architects to help to complete the building. Just down I am glad that I am now to be followed by my the road is Waterloo Bridge, which, in every guidebook, friend—although not my noble friend—the noble Lord, is described as having been designed by that very Lord Howie of Troon, with whom I have discussed eminent architect Sir Giles Gilbert Scott, who was engineering on many occasions. actually employed by the engineers Rendel, Palmer and Tritton, with which I spent 13 happy years when I was younger, although not under Waterloo Bridge. It 3.01 pm is interesting that people think of Waterloo Bridge as Lord Howie of Troon: My Lords, I am very grateful a kind of arch structure when it consists of two for those kind words. The noble Viscount, Lord horizontal reinforced concrete box girders, screened Montgomery, and I have debated for many years on a by a kind of façade, which is presumably the architect’s variety of subjects but this, I believe, is the first time work. During the war a temporary handrail was put we have ever been on the same side. I am very glad of on the bridge and the official history of Rendel, Palmer it; it might happen again—who can tell? and Tritton says: 357 Science, Technology and Engineering[LORDS] Science, Technology and Engineering 358

[LORD HOWIE OF TROON] to say that last year the name of Buro Happold was “The elegance of the free flowing clean design was preserved added to the Great Hall, as it should have been originally. when it was decided to leave in place the simple tubular handrail, It only took seven years to get it done. I sincerely hope erected as a temporary wartime economy, in place of the ornate that future engineers can achieve such events more railing of the original design and also to omit the arches over the approaches as earlier proposed by Sir Giles”. rapidly than I was able to do. The architect was in that case luckily unable to carry out his plans. 3.13 pm What could be done to improve recognition in the Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, other noble press, the media as a whole and in this Parliament? Lords have declared interests of various degrees of There is a remedy at hand: in 1988, Parliament passed science and engineering distinction. My only declaration the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, which is that I happen to be the president of the Parliamentary brought into our law a continental notion called the and Scientific Committee, to which reference has very moral right—that is, to be recognised as the designer kindly been made, and chairman of the Foundation or author of a piece of work. In the case of a book, it for Science and Technology. As I did no science at is quite simple: the author puts a paragraph in the school or university at all, I have to describe these flyleaf saying that he asserts the right to be regarded offices as wholly ornamental. as the author of the book. I have listened to the debate with enormous interest When the Bill came before this House in 1987, the and agree with a great deal of what has been said. moral right was extended beyond books, musical Indeed, I agreed with my noble friend Lord Freeman composition and so on to include architecture and when he said that he could not find anything in the structural design. The Bill said that the architect had speech of the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, with which he the right to assert his moral right to be regarded as the disagreed. I shall want to read it very carefully, but my designer. Efforts were made in the House to change impression was much the same, and we are much that part of the Bill so that it said “architect or indebted to him for launching the debate. engineer”. While the idea was welcomed on the The noble Baroness, Lady Greenfield, who made a government side, it somehow seemed inappropriate to very interesting speech, referred to the Science Media put the word “engineer” into the Bill. So, instead, Centre. As I shall have something to say about the Whitehall in its wisdom deleted the word “architect” question of communication, I should like to pay tribute and inserted the word “author”. In later debates during to her for her initiative in getting that immensely the passage of the Bill, “author” was defined as being valuable organisation set up and for appointing Fiona either the architect or the engineer, although that Fox to run it. It really has been hugely successful. never got on to the face of the Bill; had it done, a great I do not want to repeat what other speakers have deal of confusion would have been avoided. said at this stage of the debate. However, I should like It is up to engineers to assert their moral right to refer to a very interesting event that took place just under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988. before the recess, namely a seminar organised by the They have to do this apparently in writing. That is Lord Speaker on 12 May. This was the second in a where it becomes a little difficult again because it is series of seminars launched by the noble Baroness hard to know who to write to. Obviously you write to intended to bring together noble Lords and outside the owner of the building, whoever that happens to be. commentators, entitled “Science, Policy and Ethics: You may, like Martin Luther, nail a letter to the door Potential Future Flashpoints”. Three of our most of some place or another and assert your right there, distinguished scientists, the noble Lords, Lord Krebs or put a letter around a lamp post the way that and Lord May, and the noble Baroness, Lady Greenfield, planning authorities do, and assert your right in that addressed us at the outset, and their speeches were way. I would like the Minister to explain the mechanics very interesting and informative. That was followed by by which that should be done. a discussion. In my 10 minutes I cannot hope to cover all the subjects that were discussed. For me, the really I have one last word. Some years ago, I was at an interesting outcome of that seminar was the reaction event in the Great Hall of the British Museum, which of the 11 invited senior science journalists. I am familiar is ascribed to Norman Foster once again. His bit is with the expertise of my noble colleagues, but this was very good, but the bit of the Great Hall that is of real a very interesting exposure of what has been referred interest is the roof, which is a very complicated structure, to by other noble Lords as an interaction between designed once again by Buro Happold of Bath. I science, politics and the media. noticed that the names of Foster and Spencer De In passing, I might say that one of the very early Grey, one of his partners who did the principal design points that arose was how in an all-elected House of of that building, were then inscribed on the wall of the Lords you are going to keep these distinguished scientists Great Hall. I suggested to the director that it would be available. I hope without embarrassing the noble Baroness, a good idea if the name of Buro Happold were added. I would like to say that she dealt with that extremely He agreed that this was a very good idea and then robustly. The result was that no other journalist raised retired the following day. the matter during the course of the discussion. Her I then spent some considerable effort, with the view was that there are alternative methods of agreement of Buro Happold, Norman Foster and accountability to elections and that, as an expert House Spencer De Grey, to get that name added to the with a different role from another place, this House inscription on the wall. Unfortunately, the members of must be able to secure the expertise that gives us our staff of the British Museum kept retiring. I am happy distinctive role in our constitution. 359 Science, Technology and Engineering[4 JUNE 2009] Science, Technology and Engineering 360

I turn to the issues that are relevant to the debate. I Another explanation was that the scientists too was struck once again by the journalists’ insistence on often seem to focus, the need for good communication. That point came “on ‘what is not known’ rather than on ‘what is known’”, back repeatedly. It has been a subject close to my own inevitably raising public fears that these scientists heart ever since the House issued our Select Committee themselves do not understand what they are doing. A report, Science and Society, to which the noble Lord, huge amount of science is known. It must be part of Lord Haskel, referred; an inquiry which I had the the scientific community’s role constantly to reassure honour to chair. If, indeed, science and technology are people that this is known and certain science. We are essential—I believe that they are—to meeting the on the way to solving the problem of nuclear waste, challenges with which we as a world are faced, particularly but it has been a long, hard battle. That is just one in this nation, those engaged in promoting this must example; there are many others. secure and retain the trust of the public. This was a key point in that report and is widely accepted. Scientists I applaud the Minister for what he said at the and engineers practise with an implicit consent of the Cheltenham Science Festival yesterday. I have here the public. If that is forfeited, the damage that could be Times headline, to which I was much attracted: done is huge. “Making everyone feel guilty ‘is not the way to combat climate change’”. Much has been achieved. Almost all major professional I am sure that that is right. There is a streak of opinion organisations in this field now have their “science in in this country that the world will be a better place society” committees and activities, not least the Royal only if we all put on hair shirts. It simply does not Society; it is good to know that I shall be followed by work like that. I was present at a foundation seminar the noble Lord, Lord Rees of Ludlow. In passing, I last night on science in the cities, where much the same particularly commend the work of the Royal Society point was made by the Mayor of London, Boris of Chemistry, which really has made a notable Johnson, talking about better homes and building contribution to this whole business of explaining the insulation: if you want to secure your objectives, the importance of science—not just chemical science, but public must know that it will pay them to do it. This is all science—and to solving the many problems with regarded in some circles as somehow immoral, which which we are faced. It has put this aspect at the centre is not right. That is the way you achieve your objectives of its activities, and deserves praise for that. and that is the way you get the attitude change. At the Lord Speaker’s seminar, it was emphasised One of the points that came through at the seminar again and again that, and last night is the importance of the social sciences “scientists had an important responsibility to engage the public in in this. They have much to offer and they need to be debate about their research”. listened to and consulted more frequently on how to get these changes. Of course, if we are to meet the Is the Minister, who I am pleased to see in his place, many challenges that confront the world we must satisfied that this is now sufficiently recognised in support, applaud and reward the scientists and engineers universities? In particular, is the research assessment who are doing this work. Like others, I am not always exercise, even after its review, still an obstacle to recognising satisfied that that is done. Recognition is hugely important, the credit that should be given to scientists who successfully as the noble Lord, Lord Howie, said. I warmly support engage with the public? This point was raised with us the Motion and thank the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, 10 years ago in the science and society inquiry. I am for introducing it. not convinced that there has been sufficient change. There was much talk at the seminar about important 3.24 pm challenges such as climate change, food security, energy Lord Rees of Ludlow: My Lords, we should be security and so on. Indeed, the noble Baroness, Lady grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, for initiating Greenfield, gave us a disturbing account of the effect this debate and for his speech. In the current febrile of the small screen on children’s minds and attitudes. political atmosphere, it would be especially ungracious However, something was also said about the often not to acclaim the Government’s sustained support malign influence of the green lobby, which seems to for science and to acknowledge the dynamism and oppose so many of the solutions to these problems, commitment of the noble Lord, Lord Drayson, like nuclear energy, GM technology and so on. Noble who fought hard for the ring-fencing of the science Lords asked why the media seem to give these voices budget. such prominence in their coverage. One explanation that was offered, which I suppose one has been aware In science, engineering and medicine, the pay-off of in a sense but was it stated very clearly, was that for R&D sometimes takes decades. The tap cannot be these bodies operated, turned off and then back on. It would be tragic if we lost the momentum developed during the past 12 years. “almost like multinational companies, deploying large and Indeed, to retain our international competitiveness, sophisticated marketing and public relations departments”. we must raise our game. That is because the Obama One sometimes gets the impression from reading the Administration have given America’s scientific community media about their activities that the media still think a massive boost in morale and in substance. The new that they are tree-huggers in sandals. They are not. President has eased the ban on stem cell research and They are extremely well organised and their motives has appointed a “dream team” of science advisers. need to be ruthlessly exposed. They are often very Moreover, his economic stimulus package includes damaging to the solutions to the problems that we all new, one-off investments in federal R&D worth more face. than $13 billion for the NSF and NIH, and a much 361 Science, Technology and Engineering[LORDS] Science, Technology and Engineering 362

[LORD REES OF LUDLOW] would seem very implausible to expect applicants, or a larger sum for R&D in energy. Our success in attracting research council official, to make such judgments before and retaining mobile talent will be at risk unless we the research is done. respond. Another concern is a possibly undue focus on so-called As a scientific nation, the UK is, by many indicators, priority areas. Again, that might stifle the most original second only to the US. It is important to recognise or cross-disciplinary work—the biggest breakthroughs why this is so. It is largely because of our strong are the least predictable. Indeed, it seems topsy-turvy research universities. We are the only country outside that a Government who are rightly reluctant to pick the US to have several in the premier league. I should winners in industrial policy should aspire to do that at this stage declare an interest as a Cambridge professor upstream, as it were, in the field of research. and as president of the Royal Society, and I want to It is surely in our own interests to support real speak from these perspectives. The Royal Society aims excellence across the board. That is affordable, even in to promote excellence in science and technology for its these straitened times; I refer to funds inside the own sake and for enhancing human welfare. One of so-called ring-fence for academic research. Funds my predecessors, Lord Porter of Luddenham, averred administered by the research councils and the HEFCE that there are two kinds of science: applied and not yet QE funds are the main source. When we confront applied. more costly developments, funded outside the ring-fence, of course the UK needs to focus. Strategic criteria The most readily measurable economic benefit of should certainly become priorities then, as they did in academic research is direct knowledge transfer from Obama’s stimulus package. university labs to industry. But that is only a small part We should plainly do all that we can to sustain of the total. Research universities fulfil other key roles and exploit our excellence in biotechnology. The that are harder to quantify. They are networked with pharmaceutical industry’s success has been grounded the whole world’s research. Their graduates spread in the UK’s strong research base in biomedical science, expertise throughout the private and public sectors. which is strong because governmental support for That is more important than direct knowledge transfer. biomedical sciences has been massively supplemented There is a strong correlation between the research by the Wellcome Trust, the major cancer charities and, quality of a university and the strength of the commercial of course, the heavy R&D spend of the industry itself. cluster that is attracted around it. Talent attracts talent But what about other sectors? A broad constituency and big companies, too. Success breeds success and, in academia and business is now urging the need for just as important, failure is accepted as a step towards sustained public support for the physical sciences— later success. In places such as Cambridge, a dynamic mathematics, all of physics, material science, chemistry and interactive high-tech community has developed and engineering—and perhaps even for a slight that offers, in the words of a Financial Times article, a, rebalancing of public funding to allow a catch-up by those subjects after the prioritising of medical research “low risk place to do high risk things”. in recent years. The advocates for breadth in basic Academics are often derided as living self-indulgently science include biomedical researchers themselves. Sir Paul in ivory towers but I strongly contest that. Excellent Nurse had a fine letter to the Times urging that point, universities are of immense social and economic value. and the heads of the MRC and Wellcome Trust have The global challenges that confront us cannot be spoken in similar vein. Cross-disciplinary expertise, effectively tackled without the expertise in them. spanning physical and biological sciences, is now at a premium. Peter Mansfield’s Nobel prize-winning work I am fortunate to know most of the leading UK on MRI was done in Nottingham’s physics department. scientists—those who have won Nobel prizes or the The exciting new field of synthetic biology involves equivalent. They are all individualists, but there is one physics and engineering, and computer science now thing that they would all agree on: they would highlight pervades all of biology. The physical sciences in our the long-term nature of their work, the unpredictability universities are vulnerable because they cannot draw of its outcome and the need for a supportive environment. on supplementary sources of private funding that To ensure that our universities stay internationally parallel the Wellcome Trust and the medical charities, competitive, it is crucial that they continue to offer this or on industrial support to match that of the environment, relative autonomy and the prospect, without pharmaceutical industry. undue hassle, of gaining “responsive mode” funding for the research to which they are prepared to dedicate The earlier ministerial stint of the noble Lord, Lord their lives. That is a fair expectation if you are at Drayson, at the MoD, where he oversaw procurement Harvard, Stanford or Berkeley; it must be so here if we of high-tech equipment, will have convinced him that are to compete for mobile talent at the highest academic our manufacturing sector in physics-based industry is level. In research, it is the top quality that counts; patchy. There is a paucity of major high-tech there is no virtue in coming second. manufacturing companies in the UK. Indeed, as the noble Lord, Lord Bhattacharyya, reminded us, the It is in this context that there have been concerns weakness of our electronics industry stems from short- about some signals sent by research councils. For sighted policies and lost opportunities in the 1970s instance, applicants are required to state what the and 1980s, from which lessons can surely be learnt. At impact of their research will be. This cannot be more a time when we need to rebalance our economy away than a guess. Even the wizards of venture capital find from finance and towards high-tech manufacturing it hard to assess the viability of a commercial proposal and services, we should invest in efforts to recover our involving research that has already been done, so it strength in the industries based on the physical sciences. 363 Science, Technology and Engineering[4 JUNE 2009] Science, Technology and Engineering 364

R&D on energy in particular is, worldwide, at far too These companies do not just create new products; low a level to meet the global challenge—anomalously almost daily, they revolutionise the tools and processes low compared to the scale of medical and health by which they are produced. By combining the blue-skies R&D. Moreover, that is a strategic area where we thinking of pure research with the practical solutions could align with the expanding US effort to mutual of applied research, the science and engineering sectors benefit. Although I have just mentioned the US, we enable manufacturing as a whole to provide the goods must also engage with Europe. When Europe acts and services that we all need. They provide the scientific together, as it does in pure science at CERN, or in the know-how and engineering solutions to enable aircraft or space industry, it can match the US. There manufacturing to make its goods, to transport these is a need for more co-operation in other areas, particularly goods around the world, to service products and to energy and its infrastructure. communicate with their customers. Finally, I would like to engage in a bit of positive As for science, the pharmaceutical industry, to which thinking, taking my cue from the noble Lord, Lord other noble Lords have referred, is a wonderful example Bragg, in the previous debate. Britain has a great of how companies bring together pure science and scientific tradition and great scientific strength today; mass manufacturing. In developing medicines, vaccines, we must build on it and aspire to be the best place in and treatments that are ever more effective, pharmaceutical the world to do science. If we can, benign positive companies begin the process with the purest of scientific feedbacks come into play; the law of increasing returns research. After, in some cases, years of applied research applies; talent attracts talent. We do not know what into efficacy, a great idea becomes a mass-produced will be the 21st-century counterparts of quantum product, manufactured to the very highest specifications theory, the double helix and the computer, or where that we require. By working beyond scientific boundaries the great innovators of the future will get their formative into manufacturing processes, pharmaceutical companies training and inspiration. However, one thing seems a demonstrate how modern industry is not constrained near certainty: unless we in this country get smarter, by arbitrary sectoral definitions; instead, it brings we will get poorer. The UK’s relative standing will sink together all the skills and processes necessary for unless we keep our competitive edge as discoverers success. and innovators and unless some of the key creative Science and engineering companies can provide the ideas of the 21st century germinate and, even more excitement to attract and engage young people with important, are exploited here in the UK. learning. We all need that to happen. The young person sufficiently excited by the latest Formula 1 car 3.35 pm to keep studying science and mathematics will find a Baroness Wall of New Barnet: MyLords,itgivesme whole world of careers open across the manufacturing great pleasure to take part in this debate and, like sector and beyond. However, we can be confident that others, I thank my noble friend Lord Haskel for the future of these key industries is safe only when creating this opportunity. Before I move on to my young people are convinced that these skills and subjects contribution, I should say how impressed I was by the are what they aspire to. We need to do more to build interesting speech made by the noble Baroness, Lady understanding by young people of the links between Greenfield, whom I had not previously heard. Her these important industries and how science, engineering commitment was evident in the enthusiasm with which and manufacturing coexist in the modern economy. she spoke. I wish, having heard the noble Lord, Lord To understand this modern situation, it is worth Jenkin of Roding, that I had cleared my diary to go to looking back at how science and engineering have the event that he went to. He recalled—again, with been the cornerstone of British economic success for excitement—what happened that evening. I am sure many years, although I could not do that with half the that I could have learnt a lot, too. humour that my noble friend Lord Howie used when I want briefly to mention how science and engineering he described some of the major constructions around support the wider manufacturing sector—many noble this wonderful city and others. However, there can be Lords talked about it—before looking to the future no doubt that the engineering sector is embedded in and at how science and engineering will continue to the British landscape, both physically and psychologically. have a positive impact on all our lives and every sector It provided the powerhouse of the Industrial Revolution, in the UK economy. which in turn laid the foundations for the UK’s continuing This Government have proved themselves to be place in global innovation. We might say that the committed to manufacturing and have supported it entire history of the UK over the past 200 years has well. The recent publication of the manufacturing been coloured by industrial reform, invention and strategy, New Industry, New Jobs, gives us all a chance mass production. The seismic changes in British society to boost and boast about manufacturing in the UK. can be linked to the earliest technology and the The document describes the importance of industrial breakthroughs that ensued. activism in safeguarding the UK’s global position in I now turn to the contribution that science and manufacturing, which is on everyone’s agenda. All of engineering have made to the country as a whole. They us, no matter what our background or politics, have have already given the UK a standard of living that been influenced by these industries. We owe much of surely surpasses the dreams of those early pioneers this country’s historical influence and current global and inventors. Mass transportation gives individuals position to their contribution. the freedom to explore the world as never before. Science and engineering companies provide the Modern communications technology has brought invention and innovation to drive the manufacturing businesses and people closer together. There are daily process, as well as producing the manufactured goods. scientific breakthroughs in the fight against diseases 365 Science, Technology and Engineering[LORDS] Science, Technology and Engineering 366

[BARONESS WALL OF NEW BARNET] The legacy from the Olympics in 2012 will be not that limit life expectancy and the quality of life. The just in sport but in the construction, engineering and worlds of music, entertainment and film—a subject scientific breakthroughs that hosting such a prestigious covered in the debate introduced by the noble Lord, and ambitious event in the UK will bring for us all. In Lord Bragg—have been revolutionised in the past addition, the Government’s recent announcement of 100 years through science and engineering. We should ongoing support for a low-carbon economy will draw all be proud of the contributions that these industries on all the energy expertise that science and engineering have made to the quality and richness of life—many can provide. We have a real opportunity to use what of us enjoy them as part of our daily experience. we already know to ensure that we gain the knowledge Many of your Lordships will know that the value of that we will need to meet the changes and challenges skills in science and engineering to British industry is of the future. We must ensure that Britain can capitalise incredibly high. People with these skills not only work on these opportunities and continue to build on its for companies in the science and engineering sectors scientific and engineering capability. but are much in demand across all sectors. A report In conclusion, we must ensure that every employee from the ETB last year found that, of the engineering can develop their full potential, as we need a highly and technology graduates who entered employment, a skilled and adaptable workforce, particularly to quarter joined companies that did not have engineering support advanced manufacturing, life sciences and and technology as their primary activity, but only green and emerging technologies. We can give ourselves 11 per cent of all engineering and technology graduates the best possible future by keeping our focus on the were employed in non-engineering and technology importance of science and engineering skills across jobs. This means that non-technology companies are the workforce. employing many engineering graduates in engineering roles. Engineering and technology occupations permeate 3.45 pm all sectors, and the skills of these people help to make companies successful across the economy. Lord Crisp: My Lords, although I suspect that a Companies in all sectors want to employ science, debate with this title would be important at any time, I engineering and technology specialists and they want congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, on his to employ them right across the piece in their organisations. timing, because there is, as many noble Lords have For England, we hope that the new diplomas in said, a great sense of urgency about the subject. Part engineering, manufacturing, product design and science of the reason for that is the point which he himself will help young people to experience the excitement of made about this being a time of recession. Those who these subjects at a very much earlier age. With these succeed in such times are those who can look beyond diplomas, which are designed to help students to progress the recession and identify what is needed, innovate into employment, higher education and work-based and be ready for it. In many cases that will be the learning, we have a real opportunity to boost the scientists and technologists. volume and quality of these skills in the workforce. As many noble Lords also said, there is also the crisis of climate change, where again we need technological Of course, science and engineering contribute a innovations. We have some major issues to address on great deal to the economic wealth and well-being of how to fund and implement those innovations. However, the UK, as many speakers have said. I ask myself and I want to talk about medical science, and I shall focus all noble Lords, including the Minister: what of the on putting research into practice and actually ensuring future for science and engineering? If we succeed in that things happen for patients and for the health of raising performance and competitiveness, what will the population. We have a great and illustrious history the science and engineering sectors be able to contribute in this area. Many great scientists and clinical scientists in the future? I suggest that, in addition to a direct have enhanced not only the health of the UK but our contribution to the economy through the sale of goods position in the world. and services, these sectors can improve all our lives in Perhaps I may mention just one individual: the late ways that we can only begin to imagine. As the UK Professor Philip Poole-Wilson of the National Heart faces challenges such as disease control, the ongoing and Lung Institute, whose memorial service is being fight against terrorism, and an ageing population, held as we speak, where I would have been now were I science and engineering can provide the tools and not here. Philip exemplified three things that are important skills to ensure that we face the future with more to us in this debate. He was a great cardiologist, but he confidence. Many other noble Lords have referred to was also a great clinician, great researcher and great that issue. teacher. In this field, we often need those three sets of I received a helpful briefing for this debate from the qualities together. We have an excellent environment Royal Society of Chemistry, to which the noble Lord, in which we can bring together the clinical, the research Lord Jenkin, referred. It is very encouraging to see the and the teaching: the National Health Service—in work that it is doing to identify opportunities where in which I declare my interest as a former chief executive— the future chemistry, and science generally, can make a which is an excellent environment for learning and crucial contribution towards tackling the major challenges research. The noble Lord, Lord Drayson, has recognised of our time—issues such as climate change, food that and, as I understand it, one of the issues in his security, energy, water and health—and help to build a current work is to ensure that we draw sufficient strong UK economy. I hope that my noble friend Lord research and scientific development from our Drayson will agree with the RSC that UK science will extraordinary integrated health service to enable us to be crucial in enabling us to emerge from this recession. put it into practice and understand it in practice. 367 Science, Technology and Engineering[4 JUNE 2009] Science, Technology and Engineering 368

I pay tribute to the recent developments in the that there is resistance to the findings of science among Department of Health and the NHS in making sure the population in all kinds of ways. The noble Lord, that research is much better co-ordinated. Under the Lord Haskel, made the point—his words were very leadership of Dame Sally Davies, we have the Office interesting—that in the great MMR controversy, people for Strategic Co-ordination of Health Research, which were judging us on our values and the reasons for is making sure that there is more effective translation which we were making the change. They were making of health research into health and economic benefits judgments about the people who were saying, “You for the UK. It is very important work that could be should have this vaccine”, and not making a scientific taken much further. I was interested to hear that, from judgment. That is true in all kinds of different areas of his new Office of Life Sciences, the noble Lord, Lord medicine. Drayson, will be producing a life sciences blueprint in We know that about 30 per cent of drugs do not get July. It will be interesting to hear how he wants to take taken by the patients for whom they are prescribed. that further forward. That seems to be universal in developed countries. The We know that health research has an economic social sciences can help us to understand how to get benefit for the country. An interesting study was done the products of natural sciences into action, so that we a year or so ago, entitled What’s it Worth?, which can get better evaluation and results for the population. estimated the economic benefits of medical research My second question for the noble Lord, Lord Drayson, in the UK. It made some broad estimates in a number is how he sees the interaction between the natural and of areas, but in the one that it considered in some the social sciences. How important does he see that in detail, cardiovascular disease, it estimated that there the life sciences, particularly the question of how to was a 9 per cent rate of return annually on the research. spread practice from one bedside to every bedside? That is a significant rate of return and one that it is My third point is again health-related, but may important that we understand when talking about the have other relevance. Anyone who has had responsibility importance of medical research. for managing health services will know that there is an I want to draw attention to three points. One comes ultimate tension between prevention and treatment. directly from that area of research. Anyone who has We often get dragged down to the far end of treatment read that study—I have, and I had better declare when we want to be spending a bit more resource on another interest as a trustee of RAND Europe, which prevention. There are issues here for the direction of was one of the authors of the study—can see how science in medical research. I think particularly of the difficult it was to evaluate the impact of medical pharmaceutical industry.To what extent are we expending research, because there are so many confounding factors great effort on developing drugs for the latter stages of and so many ways of measuring. I hope that in the treatment and less attention to the biological markers new Office of Life Sciences, attention will be paid to of diagnosis? For example, we know that if we can how we effectively evaluate the impact of medical catch cancer early and treat it early, we have a much research—not just the quality of the medical research better chance of the patient surviving and that it is a itself, but its impact on real life. That will be an much cheaper option, whereas if you catch it later it is important way to help inform policy for the future. I much more expensive and the patient has much less ask the Minister to comment on that. chance. We should of course try to prevent cancer, but there is also an argument for improving the way in The second point on which I ask the Minister to which we handle diagnosis. Does the Minister feel that comment, and to tell us whether the life sciences there is room for greater emphasis on what Sir Bill blueprint will refer to it, concerns the spread of practice Castell described as early health as opposed to the once research has demonstrated what works. We often treatment of late disease? Should that be where we talk about getting things from the laboratory to the should be thinking about going in medical research? bedside. The study to which I just referred stated that More emphasis on that would not, of course, prevent in cardiovascular disease, it took 17 years on average the emphasis on late disease. to get things from research to the bedside. I am interested in the time that it takes not just to get things from the laboratory to the bedside, but from one bedside to 3.55 pm every bedside, making sure that it is normal practice everywhere. I suspect that we do not pay very much Baroness Sharp of Guildford: My Lords, I join other attention to that. Part of that is about how we spread noble Lords in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, best practice; and part of it is knowledge transfer. for introducing this interesting and timely debate. It is That may be a particular issue for medical sciences, timely because in the current recession, we are looking but I suspect that it is true elsewhere. There was a at ways in which we may emerge from it, and we all famous article in the Lancet that said that if we agree that we need to look at rebalancing the economy applied all the knowledge that we have today, we and shifting towards industries and services that have would have more impact than any medical breakthrough a considerable science and technology content and that we may be likely to have in the next 10 years. I could play a bigger role. I think that the creative arts suspect that that may be true elsewhere and that we and heritage industries will also play a substantial part may not pay enough attention to that latter bit—getting in our recovery, but that does not mean that science it from one bedside to every bedside. and technology do not play a part in those industries. If one looks at computer games and animation one It is not just about spreading good practice. The recognises that digital technology, which did not exist noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, made a point about the 20 years ago, and the creative and media industries social sciences and natural sciences interface. We know have come together there. 369 Science, Technology and Engineering[LORDS] Science, Technology and Engineering 370

[BARONESS SHARP OF GUILDFORD] What are the current proposals? The Government An area in which I have a particular interest because have pledged to continue their investment in science I chaired a sub-committee of the Select Committee on and technology to 2014, carrying through their 10-year Science and Technology is science and heritage. Looking investment plan. The Budget promised a further allocation at how we can engage people in the role of science and of £750 million into a strategic investment plan to technology, I was fascinated by the degree to which the support advanced industrial projects in growth areas. general public are fascinated by, for example, how the The research councils have been asked to reallocate Madonna of the Pinks in the National Gallery was £106 million of their funding into those same growth identified as the original by chemistry that identified areas. the paints that were used at the time. When galleries Two interesting strands of thought are developing. expose conservation techniques to the general public, In February, the Secretary of State, Mr Denham, at they find that the general public are interested in them. the Royal Academy of Engineering, said that, It is a means of breaking down barriers and the clash “of course, any research base which does not include a substantial of cultures to which the noble Baroness, Lady Greenfield, element of fundamental, curiosity-driven research conducted by referred. researchers who simply want to know, will not be relevant economically in anything but the shortest of terms. Many defining moments in On the whole, we in Britain feel that we punch science are the fruits of research started and funded years ago— above our weight in science and technology, which a research which proceeded unevenly and serendipitously over time. number of speakers mentioned. We say time and time So stop such work and we kill the goose that lays the golden egg. again that we have an extraordinarily good science (We would kill a lot of other geese who would not lay … at all of base, although we have some reservations about how course, but knowledge for knowledge’s sake is also … worth far we manage to translate it into technology. The having). While the driver of fundamental research is curiosity, we shouldn’t, though, lose interest in its links with economic value. A Government must be congratulated on the degree to recent MRC and Wellcome Trust report suggests that the average which they have given priority to science and technology return on investment from the exploitation of fundamental research over the past 12 years. If we look at it in terms of how is 39p annually for every pound invested from the outset”. much money has gone into the research base, it has That is a very high rate of return, which certainly is increased in real terms from £2.4 billion to £5.9 billion; worth pursuing. that is, it has more than doubled over the past 12 years. However, the other part of public sector R&D, spending I am somewhat disturbed by the degree to which on government departments, has remained more or the noble Lord, Lord Drayson, has suggested that we less static. While business R&D has increased from should now perhaps concentrate on areas where the £11.7 billion to £13.4 billion, as a proportion of GDP UK is likely to be number one or number two in overall it has gone down from 1.25 per cent of GDP to 20 years’ time and that there should be a concentration 1.08 per cent of GDP. The UK as a whole has set its of resources into a number of growth areas. That has target at 2.5 per cent. been linked with the new industrial strategy that is emerging from the Department for Business, Enterprise The noble Lord, Lord Bhattacharyya, mentioned and Regulatory Reform. The strategy talks about ensuring the role of business R&D, which is real and worrying. that British science and technology are at the heart of He said that when he started as an apprentice with the revolutions in industrial production that we defined Lucas there were two German firms allied to the work in the 20th century, but looking to the future, the he was doing and that the two German firms have strategy identifies the need to pay particular attention gone on to become multinationals whereas Lucas has to those technological changes that are shaping industries disappeared from the scene. That is too often the and highlight several sectors, such as low-carbon story in relation to British companies. One of the technologies, digital media, life sciences and advanced features of business R&D in the UK is the real role manufacturing. that foreign companies play. In terms of R&D as a What does all this mean? There is talk of a greater whole, it is very disappointing that having set the concentration of resources. Are we seeking to pick the target of 2.5 per cent, in 2006, we were down to winner? The Minister indicates that no, we are not. 1.78 per cent of GDP. In Japan, it was 3.4 per cent; in This takes me back to the 1970s and 1980s when I the US, it was 2.66 per cent; and in Germany, it was worked in the National Economic Development Office. 2.54 per cent. As a number of noble Lords have We firmly denied that we were picking the winners but mentioned, President Obama has pledged a doubling were scenario-planning and looking at other forms of of public investment in R&D with an injection of moving forward. I look back also to the 1990s and the $21 billion, which is a huge amount of money. In work I did with the Science Policy Research Unit on business, we have no room for complacency. It is vital the UK Foresight programme. How much is the noble that we still move forward. Lord, Lord Drayson, using the Foresight unit in his It is worth mentioning that although we have 4 per department and the Horizon Scanning Centre to look cent of the population of the world, we have 8 per cent at areas where there is growth potential? We have of scientific publications and 12 per cent of highly established these Foresight facilities and they are very cited publications. In that sense, we produce good important. science. But we have an ageing population of scientists I end on a note of warning about trying to identify and very real worries about the number of young where we are going to be in 20 years’ time. In the early people coming forward to study science in our universities. 1970s, the late Lord Rothschild, who led the job of In the past five years, 80 university science departments, looking at funding for science and technology, considered mainly in physics and chemistry, have closed. These the Laboratory of Molecular Biology in Cambridge. statistics are very worrying. In those days it had a budget of around £20 million. 371 Science, Technology and Engineering[4 JUNE 2009] Science, Technology and Engineering 372

He asked why all that money was being spent on therefore progress to a science degree at a top university. advanced molecular biological research and where it There is a worrying deficiency in the numbers of would take us. But it was the eve of the revolution in science, technology, engineering and maths students. biotechnology and all that has stemmed from it. It is Alarmingly, in the United Kingdom only 8 per cent of extremely dangerous not to invest in a broad science graduates are engineering graduates compared, for base from which will come a high rate of return and to example, to more than 30 per cent in China. identify too narrowly from where the benefits may The Government proposed to reform education, come. training and apprenticeships for young people and adults and to provide new powers to strengthen children’s 4.06 pm trusts, improve standards in schools and increase Lord De Mauley: My Lords, it has been a privilege confidence in qualifications. We have had no trouble to listen to and learn from noble Lords who have in supporting such ambitions. The noble Baroness, spoken today. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, Lady Wall of New Barnet, among others, spoke of the for giving us the opportunity to hold this debate, and I need to enthuse young people. It is important, too, agree with the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, and the noble that the Government have identified that investment Baroness, Lady Sharp, that his timing is excellent. needs to be made to encourage the development of There is no argument about the important role that skills. science, technology and engineering increasingly will However, as feed-back from all sides of the House play in the future of our country. These subjects have a confirmed on Tuesday at its Second Reading, the central role in promoting innovation and are the key Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill catalysts for productivity growth and competitiveness. has all the hallmarks of a wasted opportunity. In New ideas drive enterprise, create new products and particular, the statutory entitlement to an apprenticeship markets, and improve efficiency. They deliver benefits proposed in the Bill is meaningless without the to businesses, their customers and society as a whole. mechanisms and the funds to implement it. We will Scientific and technological advances also drive propose a number of key amendments to try to improve improvements in quality of life, particularly through the Bill substantially. services such as healthcare and security, through On investment more generally, the strategic investment environmental protection and energy saving, as well as fund of £750 million announced in the Budget, intended many other areas already mentioned by noble Lords. to support valuable industrial projects of strategic Several noble Lords, including the noble Lord, importance, is, despite disappointment following rumours Lord Haskel, have spoken about the creation of a that it was to have involved a larger sum, welcome. culture in our wider society that is more receptive to However, there has been considerable vagueness about science and engineering. My noble friend Lord Jenkin the details and the real availability of funds, prompting and the noble Baroness, Lady Greenfield, spoke in fears that it is a political slush fund for the run up to particular about the importance of public communication. the general election, to be allocated to perceived winners A moment ago, I mentioned productivity and in fashionable areas of industry and in key marginal competitiveness in the same breath because we cannot seats. We look to the Minister to show why such fears have the latter without the former. Redesign of the are unfounded. While on the subject of funding, perhaps nuts and bolts of an industry or organisation can be as he could also update us on indications that the Science important as innovation. Blue-sky thinking and research and Technology Facilities Council is to suffer cuts and need to go hand in hand with improved efficiency of delays. processes. An effective system of intellectual property laws is a Despite the importance of science, technology and key requirement to underpin the knowledge economy engineering, we face a number of deficiencies, notably and our creative industries. The 2006 Gowers review in the realms of education. The noble Lord, Lord of the UK’s IP regime identified a number of areas Haskel, rightly said that education is where it all starts. where improvements were needed. So far, as I understand For example, there is a lack of skilled teachers which it, only about half of its recommendations have been the Campaign for Science and Engineering in the UK implemented. I would be grateful if the Minister will has described as “severe”. In 2006, 26 per cent of tell the House when the rest will. On the subject of IP, state secondary schools had no physics specialist and I join my noble friend Lord Freeman in congratulating 12 per cent no chemistry specialist. Furthermore, the and thanking the British Library on what it is doing in Government’s science and innovation investment this area. framework 2004-2014 claims that they would continually improve the number of pupils gaining an A*- C grade As my noble friend Lady Thatcher once put it, in at least two science GSCEs. Yet only yesterday it “Science and the pursuit of knowledge are given high priority was reported that there are whole areas of England by successful countries, not because they are a luxury … but where not a single child has the opportunity to sit because experience has taught us that knowledge and its effective separate science GSCEs. use are vital to national prosperity”. Pupils in some of the poorest areas, who might in A chemist herself, she of course understood the vital better circumstances be capable, are being denied access importance of science. to top careers in engineering and medical research From 1999 to 2006, I jointly owned and ran a while, on the other hand, our brightest 16 year-olds technology business. Indeed, I am still a substantial are not being stretched. Without a good understanding shareholder in the technology company to which we of science subjects at 16, it is almost impossible for sold it. Such businesses need highly qualified people pupils to get top marks in these subjects at A-level and and so I have a keen appreciation of the importance of 373 Science, Technology and Engineering[LORDS] Science, Technology and Engineering 374

[LORD DE MAULEY] noble Lord, Lord Bhattacharyya, and the noble Baroness, STEM skills to our future economy. In Britain, we are Lady Sharp, among others, rightly spoke of the lucky indeed—my the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, and importance of private sector investment. Taxpayers’ my noble friend Lord Freeman referred to this—to money must be allocated and controlled effectively. have so many scientific institutions of international Future funding plans must be credible. We must standing, several of which have been represented clearly identify—the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, among today by your Lordships, notably the noble Baroness, others, touched on this—where the money is to come Lady Greenfield, and the noble Lord, Lord Rees of from so that research continues while the economy is Ludlow. We on these Benches much appreciate the stabilised. value of the advice of your Lordships and of those We must also look seriously at the burden of regulation institutions. that can depress productivity. There is a strong danger Indeed, I particularly welcome ideas as to how, for that cries to increase regulation, aimed in reality at our example, we can improve the retention in this country financial sector, will drown those for a reduction in red for commercial development, with the resultant jobs tape in our honest-to-goodness engineering and and tax revenues, of more of the, frankly, brilliant manufacturing sectors, the sectors of which the noble ideas which come out of our research, particularly Baroness, Lady Wall of New Barnet, spoke. from our great universities. My noble friend Lord As a nation, we must be clear about our research Freeman focused on this and gave some helpful ideas. spending priorities. We must maintain a robust science As he said, the issues go wider than finance. As the base, with a stable funding system. It is imperative that noble Lord, Lord Bhattacharyya, said, these ideas and we look back on this dire period in our economy not innovations are of high quality yet, currently, too as another lurching step on our downward path but as often go overseas for commercial development. The a new beginning. It is axiomatic that science and noble Viscount, Lord Montgomery, also spoke of this. engineering are now more important than ever to our If we are to respond successfully to the challenges future national prosperity. we face, an approach based on sound science is vital. In subjects such as genetics, nanotechnology and synthetic 4.18 pm biology, where research is moving fast, opportunities are opening up for us. Some of these, of course, come The Minister of State, Department for Innovation, with ethical issues, but these need to be addressed with Universities and Skills (Lord Drayson): My Lords, I sound evidence. thank my noble friend Lord Haskel, for securing this important and timely debate. In fact, as the noble I referred earlier to the credentials of my noble Lord, Lord Crisp, said, this is an urgent debate. I friend Lady Thatcher. Conservatives have a long history thank all noble Lords who have spoken today; their in science. That is why it is so important to us that contributions reflect the true expertise in this House those in public office are scientifically literate—the on these matters and reflect well on its expert role. noble Baroness, Lady Greenfield, referred to this—and indeed why I, like my noble friend Lord Jenkin and Science, technology and engineering represent a other noble Lords, am pleased that the Government public good, in the best and strictest sense, growing in have available the services of people like the Minister. value as they are used and shared and yielding tangible The future prosperity of our country will depend benefits for our society, our democracy and our economy. upon our intellectual capital, so it is vital that we Indeed, our only hope in dealing with the major continue to invest in research. challenges facing the United Kingdom and the rest of the world—clean energy, disease, sufficient food and I am afraid, though, that all is not well. Our country water—is to address them through science, technology has been driven to the brink of bankruptcy by a and engineering. For our economy to achieve sustainable Government who encouraged an over-reliance on financial growth, it requires a constant stream of top-quality services and on debt. We should not be surprised that research to generate new ideas, products and processes the edifice has collapsed, but, as the noble Lord, Lord so that we can compete in the next-generation industries Rees of Ludlow, has said, through both private and in the modern world. However, as my noble friend public investment in research, technology and engineering, Lord Howie said, it also requires us to ensure proper we have an opportunity to rebalance our lopsided recognition of our scientists, our engineers and our economy. The noble Lord, Lord Haskel, also emphasised science entrepreneurs. This Government, I believe, the need for this rebalancing, as did the noble Baroness, have done that and are doing it. This Government Lady Sharp. have treated science as one of their highest priorities Our universities, science parks and hi-tech and creative for public investment and they will continue to do so. businesses provide solid foundations on which we can As my noble friend Lord Haskel argued, post-credit rebuild. Indeed, our creative industries, to which the crunch, there is an urgent need to rebalance our economy. noble Lord, Lord Bhattacharyya, referred and which, We need to ensure that those areas where the United as the noble Lord, Lord Howie, said, have already had Kingdom has the potential to generate future growth an outing in this Chamber today, are now worth over are ones in which we continue to invest. Science is key 7 per cent of GDP. Britain really has got talent, to building Britain’s future. We see approximately particularly in areas such as design and digital media, 2.7 million new jobs over the next 10 years based which offer great potential for growth. around science and engineering. I could not put it We must acknowledge, though, as several noble more clearly than my noble friend Lady Wall did when Lords have, that there are always limits to the funds, she spoke about science being key to getting out of especially the public funds, that are available. The this recession. 375 Science, Technology and Engineering[4 JUNE 2009] Science, Technology and Engineering 376

When I speak here of science, I mean not only the However, despite all this success, I agree with the physical or medical sciences but the social sciences. I noble Lord, Lord Rees, that we still need to raise our trust that noble Lords will allow me to employ the game. Competitors are becoming more numerous and word “science” in its broadest sense. Let me be clear: I many more countries are focusing on these areas of believe that we should fund science even if it produces science. Recent investment made under the new no measurable economic benefits. Building a greater Administration in the United States has shown the understanding of our universe is worthy of investment waytogo. in itself. But I believe that in practice there is no such What is the role of modern government? It is certainly dichotomy in terms of science spending. There are no not to tell scientists how to do their jobs, what experiments hard and fast lines between pure and applied science to do and which hypotheses to explore. We rightly but, rather, a range of potential benefits when scientists separate ourselves from those decisions in accordance tackle interesting questions. with the well established Haldane principle, but the History has shown us repeatedly that, when world-class Government can, and must, look at the big picture scientists are given the resources to ask new questions and towards the long term, so that this country is in a and introduce fresh perspectives to older ones, they position to address the inevitable challenges of the generate insights that ultimately drive the economy, future such as coping with climate change or the improve the quality of our lives and achieve more effects of an ageing population. It is entirely appropriate besides. After a lifetime in science, I am optimistic for government to direct the attention of scientists and about the capacity of this country’s research base to engineers to these issues, not telling them how to rise to the challenges of the 21st century. In the past tackle them, but asking them to find solutions none six months, in my role as Minister for Science Innovation, the less. That is precisely what we have done by creating everything that I have seen has increased that optimism. cross-council programmes in areas such as global security. I have seen the talent at work in this country. The research councils are already exploring how to It is no accident, as we have heard from a number of tackle this and other issues in a co-ordinated way. I am noble Lords, that the UK is ranked No. 1 or 2 in the very keen for this culture to become more firmly world in almost every area of science, or that our embedded across the science community. researchers are more productive per pound spent than The noble Lord, Lord Freeman, rightly highlighted those of any other major nation. They are twice as the fact that, despite our significant investment in our productive, for instance, as their counterparts in the science base over the past 12 years, there is as a result United States. There is something very special in the of the global credit crunch a dire shortage of venture water, so to speak, in the United Kingdom when it capital to enable the spin-off businesses from our comes to what we do in science. universities to grow. I am happy to confirm that the This world-class performance is also as a result of a Government are working on programmes to identify dramatic and sustained increase in public investment actions that they can take. I am happy to clarify that over the past 12 years. More than £1 billion has been the discussions relating to a state-backed bank recognise spent on developing our research infrastructure, reversing that two separate problems need to be addressed: first, years of crippling underinvestment under the previous the lack of venture capital for those companies that Government. It is the result of, for example, ring-fencing are typically pre-profit and how capital can be generated science funding, which has created stability and enabled during this market failure to ensure that the money is long-term planning, and of the freedom provided available to take them through to profitability; and, through quality-related research funding for our secondly, the provision of development capital, as the universities. It is also the result of preserving the noble Lord said, post the transition of 3i into larger, independence of the research councils, which make more highly geared private equity deals. There is also a decisions that are in the best interests of their own lack of development capital for companies that are specialist areas. already profitable to take them to future growth. We The impact of this investment and the effectiveness are looking at both those areas. of the systems through which it is channelled are clear. My department, DIUS, working with other We can see from the results that it is working. Universities’ government departments such as BERR, is at the external income rose to £2.6 billion in 2006-07—a forefront of making sure that science and innovation 50 per cent increase in real terms since 2001. Early can fulfil their potential, identify problems and come indications show another real-terms increase in 2007-08. up with solutions. I note the points made by the noble Even in this very difficult global economic environment, Baroness, Lady Sharp, based on her extensive experience university spin-outs raised more than £1 billion of in this area. While we need to need to learn the lessons outside investment last year. UKTI reports that the of the past and from the failures of this type of strength of our research base attracted 251 R&D industrial policy, we still need to recognise that intelligent investments to the UK during 2007-08 alone. choices need to be made. As the noble Viscount, Lord Montgomery, recognised, We have had successes. For example, we recently we have always known that we have been brilliant at secured agreement on the European Space Agency’s invention, but there has been a transformation over first investment in a facility in the United Kingdom, at the past 10 or so years. We are also now brilliant at Harwell. That is excellent news, which raises the profile commercialisation. I saw for myself the changes that of another thriving UK industry, the domestic space took place in Oxford University through the late 1990s industry, and will increase the involvement of our into the early years of the 21st century. From the scientists in international programmes. perspective of scientific breakthroughs, our research I am delighted to have the opportunity in response base has really delivered. to the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, to highlight the work 377 Science, Technology and Engineering[LORDS] Science, Technology and Engineering 378

[LORD DRAYSON] example—can be invested directly back into scientific of the Office for Life Sciences, which has been set up research. The research councils have announced that to drive change across government departments in projects related to such areas as life sciences and the support of what is now, post the credit crunch, our green economy would benefit from this. However, I single most important industrial sector. I am happy to stress that it is the science community that decides confirm the themes that he highlighted: the promulgation what the areas are and where the research investment of best practice across the NHS and the recognition should go. that in the NHS we enjoy a competitive advantage that Whether we are experiencing a downturn or enjoying no other country has. We need to exploit that advantage economic growth, people have every right to know properly, particularly the patient database going back that their taxes are going to best use. They have every to 1948. right to expect that scientists with support from the Many noble Lords have mentioned the importance Government are looking at every opportunity to derive in all this of science communication and the engagement benefits from the excellent research that they undertake. of science with the wider community, which is why the That requires the science community to look hard at Prime Minister and I earlier this year launched the the knowledge that it generates; irrespective of whether “Science: So What? So Everything” campaign, not to that knowledge emerged from a project that is pure or target the science community but to address the sense, applied, it should consider the potential impact. The as mentioned by several noble Lords, that science is research councils now ask all grant applicants to do seen too much as the preserve of the elite and not as this, and I believe that that is right. something affecting everyone’s lives. The campaign has been very successful and we will maintain it, using Also, it is the fundamental responsibility of scientists the media and celebrity ambassadors to convey the funded by the taxpayer to engage with the public and relevance of science in every part of our lives. to explain the value of the work that they do. We need scientists to talk not just to one another but to people As the noble Baroness, Lady Greenfield, highlighted, in business, public services and the Government through we need to recognise the cultural clashes that exist the media. The best way in which to encourage them between the timescales in different parts of our society. to do this is through the way in which the research is I pay tribute to the work of the Science Media Centre, assessed. As the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, highlighted, which noble Lords have mentioned, but we need to they should have the opportunity to stress what is take this further if we are to make the UK a continued known as well as what is not known. Therefore, the leader in science. Government have asked the Higher Education Funding Our ability to exploit our science base to deliver Council to make sure that the new research excellence economic growth is in part to do with making better framework reflects the quality of researchers’contribution use of the Government’s massive procurement budget to policymaking and public engagement and makes it to support and drive innovation. That is why we are easier for researchers to move between academia and putting effort into our small business research initiative, the private sector. which supports the high-technology SMEs at a critical Let me say a few words about focus. The recession stage of their development. In particular, we are developing poses a far greater challenge for us than just the need the Technology Strategy Board, which I am grateful to for efficiency. We need to reshape our economy to be a number of noble Lords for highlighting, particularly competitive in the industries of the future. As the my noble friend Lord Bhattacharyya. It has been a noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, said, I offered three success, which is why we have put more investment criteria that I asked the research community to consider, into it—an additional £50 million, allocated to the so that it, business leaders and the Government could board through the strategic investment fund. The noble decide together where science investment may be best Lord opposite described it as a slush fund, but it is focused to help to rebalance the economy. I stressed anything but that; it is a strategic investment fund, areas where the growth opportunities over the next going into those areas of growth where the United two decades will be significant, where the UK has a Kingdom has real competitive advantage, such as life realistic prospect of being No. 1 or 2 in the world and sciences, clean tech, new energy and renewables, digital where we have a clear competitive advantage. and IT. It reflects the continuing importance of investing in technology and innovation for the sake of our The research councils have reported back to me on long-term competitiveness. how the science community can best support this, and At the same time, we must continue to extract the Government will say more about this through maximum value from the public investment in science. sector-specific policies in the months ahead. This is Maintaining our investment under the 10-year science how, for example, we will be employing the £750 million framework gives a clear sense of our commitment to strategic investment fund. It is an example of why a do that. Of course, the global recession makes increased full £250 million of the fund will be targeted at low-carbon efficiency a universal virtue and increases demands for projects. accountability. The Government must make efficiency For all my emphasis on efficiency and focus, I want savings in all areas, science included, but I reassure my to conclude by reiterating the quality of UK science noble friend Lord Haskel that there has been absolutely and by stressing the Government’s continued commitment no cut in the science and research budget. The ring-fence to science. That has to be right for our long-term remains intact despite the spending pressures. The success, which depends on our having faith in the science community is in the unusual position of having ability of our researchers to make the profound discoveries a commitment that all efficiency savings that can be that have defined this country’s scientific legacy to generated—through the lower rate of inflation, for date and which will meet the challenges of the future. I 379 Science, Technology and Engineering[4 JUNE 2009] Public Service Broadcasting 380 again thank my noble friend Lord Haskel and other In the provision of these kinds of programmes, noble Lords for this fascinating and informed debate. there is no doubt that the BBC is, and has been for A number of points have been made that have given three-quarters of a century, the pre-eminent provider. me constructive ideas, particularly those made by the It is something of a national pastime to hurl bricks at noble Baroness, Lady Greenfield, which I will take the BBC. Sometimes they are justified. For example, forward. Any points that I have not answered I will personally, I am on the side of the Public Accounts write to noble Lords on. Committee, which was reported this morning to have said that the BBC should give information about the 4.37 pm salaries and fees that are paid to its very expensive Lord Haskel: My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for presenters. It should make that a term of the contracts speaking in the debate and for their kind words. Sadly, that it provides. there is not enough time for me to reply to every noble However, it should also be recognised how important Lord. I have learnt an awful lot. There has been a lot a national asset the BBC is. One of the lessons that the of agreement about the value of science, technology Communications Committee has learnt in its short and engineering, and the urgent need for communication career is just how valued the BBC is at home and how and engagement. Over the years, many people have much admired it is overseas. No other broadcaster is asked me what the value and purpose are of the able to provide the promenade concerts or range of debates that we have in your Lordships’ House. Surely, drama, for example, that are provided on Radio 4 and, I am told, our job is just to legislate, to hold the indeed, on Radio 3. No other media organisation in Government to account, to hear from the Government this country is able to provide the range of home and and to hear from the Opposition. It is not. The response overseas news that is broadcast by the BBC. is that, in debating these issues, we provide a valuable I am not one of those who believe that the future opportunity for those with no organised voice to be somehow belongs to citizen journalists. By their very heard and to hear the voices that need to be heard. nature they are part-time and issue-driven. They Today we have heard those voices. I hope that the undoubtedly have a part to play, but the real need in Government and society are listening. I beg leave to an increasingly complex world is for professional withdraw the Motion. journalists with the ability to dig beyond the press releases. Here, again, the BBC sets a standard of Motion withdrawn. professionalism and objectivity that is difficult to match. Having said that, it is always important to remember Public Service Broadcasting that the BBC is not the only public service broadcaster in this country. In the committee’s view, it would be (Communications Committee Report) entirely unsatisfactory if it was ever to become so in Motion to Take Note Britain. The Government’s response also makes that point clear. ITV, Channel 4 and Five make important 4.38 pm contributions. With regional news, for example, ITV attracts four to five million viewers every evening and Moved By Lord Fowler the research shows that audiences value the choice That this House takes note of the report of that this gives them. the Communications Committee on Public Service Of course, however, as the committee points out, Broadcasting: Short-term Crisis, Long-term Future? the commercial public service broadcasters currently (2nd Report, HL Paper 61). share a common feature: they are all having to deal with the severest financial weather to hit broadcasters Lord Fowler: My Lords, first, I thank my committee for over half a century. The transfer of analogue to for its exceptional, hard work on the report and, digital has deprived them of the implied but very real indeed, for its work on all the other inquiries that we subsidy that was being provided. The internet provides have conducted. Secondly, I acknowledge receipt of increasing competition for advertising revenue, and the Government’s response delivered this lunchtime, the world recession has meant company after company which shows Whitehall catching up with the transport cutting back on spending. The impact is severe and concept of “just in time delivery”. It responds, in undoubted. several respects, very constructively to the points that My speech will concentrate on news provision, not the committee made. It is an extremely well written least because, earlier in the day, the noble Lord, Lord response, which I put down entirely to the new Bragg, dealt with many of the issues surrounding the broadcasting Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Carter. arts. We face the prospect that, unless action is taken, Perhaps the first question is, “What exactly is public much broadcast news will simply disappear. ITV has service broadcasting?”. We could so easily spend the already made it entirely clear that, under present next two hours debating its scope and how it is expressed. arrangements, its regional news programmes—much For the purposes of the debate, however, I suggest that valued but expensive to produce—will go. Equally, the the working definition we give at paragraph 13 of the much admired “Channel 4 News” programme has report— always relied on cross-subsidy from Channel 4 itself. In the present cold economic climate, the subsidy “an approach that focuses on the provision of core elements including national and regional news, current affairs programmes, cannot continue indefinitely. the arts, children’s programming, programmes dealing with religion So the questions are those of what could be done and other beliefs and UK content”— and, of course, whether anything should be done. One roughly describes the area that we are in. argument is that it should all be left to the market. We 381 Public Service Broadcasting[LORDS] Public Service Broadcasting 382

[LORD FOWLER] The net result of all that is that in the end you could rejected that argument, partly because some of the have news provided with the television skill of ITN alternative programmes—good as they might be—could and the local knowledge of the regional press. We not be accessed free by the public but depend on should remember that much of today’s regional television subscription, but crucially because, if you take the news is a follow-up to the newspaper stories that area of news, going the market way would end up with appear in the evening press. That plan is very close to a virtual BBC monopoly, which I think would be the Ofcom proposal of independently funded news totally undesirable in a democracy. consortiums. As Ofcom points out, there is a choice A range of solutions were examined by the committee. between retaining the current ITV regions or going There was a proposal to merge Channel 4 and BBC below those regions. Worldwide—corporate engineering, as one witness We should not believe that the present regional described it—leading, as the Minister memorably put boundaries necessarily represent local interest. When I it, to PSB2. The government response indicates that was Member of Parliament for Nottingham South, this is still on the table for consideration. Such a merger there was little interest there in what was happening in would undoubtedly be to the benefit of Channel 4, but Birmingham. When I became Member of Parliament the evidence we heard suggested that it was opposed for Sutton Coldfield in Birmingham, 40 miles away, by the BBC. Perhaps that is not the best basis for a there was little interest in what was happening in merger, but others may have things to say on that Nottingham, but they were both covered by the same point. There was another proposal to put together regional company. Of course, I add that what I propose Channel 4 and Five. This was enthusiastically supported about the regions of England also applies to the and pursued by Five and just as enthusiastically rejected nations of Scotland and Wales, and to Channel 4’s by Channel 4. evening news programme, which is already contracted out. Having looked at all those options and others, the The big question then becomes how you support committee proposed that the best way forward would such a system—where does the money come from? be a system of contestable funding. I think that was The committee rejected more taxpayer support but first advanced by the noble Lord, Lord Burns, not made a number of other proposals. At that point in only in his evidence to us but previously. The noble their response, the Government became remarkably Lord has the great advantage of previously having coy and basically said, “Wait for the final report”. I been an adviser on broadcasting to the present have the utmost confidence that that is exactly what Government. the Minister will say tonight, but let me set out some There is a danger in today’s media world of being of the ways in which money can most certainly be buried in jargon, so I shall explain in practical terms raised. what “contestable funding” actually means and how it could relate to regional news. The prospect with ITV First, there is the obvious potential in increased regional news is that unless something is done it will partnership between the BBC and other broadcasters. disappear. We will be back to the 1950s: the BBC will Whether it be BBC Worldwide co-operating with be the monopoly provider. In fact, it would be appreciably Channel 4 or studio space being made available at a worse than the 1950s. In those days, regional newspapers regional level, the potential is great, although I accept had large readerships. There were flourishing morning that it will take time to deliver and develop. It will also newspapers and very strong evening newspapers. In require a commitment by the BBC to partnership that those circumstances no one would talk of a BBC has not always been evident in the past. Secondly, the monopoly. But today regional newspapers face as digital switchover scheme—financed by agreement by serious a crisis—perhaps an even greater crisis—than the BBC—is underspent. There is no reason why that the broadcasters. Some newspapers have already closed money should not be used also and, even more so, why and more closures are threatened, just as in the United that amount should not continue to be used to provide States. Evening newspapers in the big cities face particular secure future finance. Thirdly, although we are moving challenges. I here declare a past interest as a former to digital from analogue, there is still a value in analogue. chairman of the Yorkshire Post Group, based in Leeds, It is not unreasonable to say that as analogue provided and of the Birmingham Evening Mail and Post Group, the undoubted subsidy for public service broadcasting based in the West Midlands. in the commercial sector, that sector might also benefit from the sale of analogue spectrum. I shall try to explain why contestable funding provides a way forward. ITV would continue to provide the I do not run away from the prospect that in the final slots—if you like—for regional news programmes on event those measures may not be sufficient or, more channel three, but would neither provide the news nor likely, will not be able to provide the resources quickly bear the cost of producing it. Public funding would be enough. If that is the case, there would be no other offered to companies that could provide that news, but option but to use the money—or a little of it—from that process would be open to competition. Regional the licence fee. We might remember that, between 1927 newspapers would be allowed to take part in those and 1961, a portion of the licence fee was devoted to consortiums competing for contracts, meaning that it general public funds. I obviously recognise that that would be necessary to change the regulation here, and would not be welcomed by the BBC and agree with it so, too, would an organisation such as ITN. However, that the licence fee should not be treated as some kind I would welcome confirmation from the Minister that of milch cow available for the Government to finance the case for relaxing regulation by allowing newspapers any proposals that they happen to have in mind. to take part in those consortiums would receive favourable Personally, I think it is questionable whether the licence treatment from the Government. fee can be diverted for providing broadband, for example, 383 Public Service Broadcasting[4 JUNE 2009] Public Service Broadcasting 384 but that is doubtless a debate that we may come to. in such a cogent form and for that excellent review of There is a much stronger case for using some small the issues that we have heard today. I declare my part of the licence fee for providing broadcasting; interests as an adviser to Macquarie Capital, whose after all, that is what the public believe that they are funds invest in and manage Arqiva and Red Bee, paying for. The public would not want a situation which are companies supplying transmission and other where the BBC was the only television news provider. services to broadcasters. It would put far too much power in the corporation’s We await the publication of the Digital Britain hands. Frankly, I do not think that the corporation White Paper this month with great interest, but we do would welcome it either. so in the knowledge that some of its proposals are This proposal is not an attack on the independence unlikely to be implemented until after the next general of the BBC. It would be ludicrous to characterise it in election. Therefore, I trust that those drafting party that way; it is to ensure proper competition and proper manifesto policies will note our concerns and the choice for the public. It also recognises that, in the options explored in our committee report and in this middle of the worst recession since the 1930s, the BBC debate today. has a unique advantage of a secure income of over The good news today for public service broadcasting £3.5 billion a year. The BBC should not be defensive is that the policies of the past decade have protected on this; it should not seek to defend its budget to the and expanded the BBC. For that, the Government last pound. It is in a uniquely privileged position and should be applauded. Licence fee income is now about should take a leadership role to help all public service £3.5 billion a year and BBC Worldwide turns over broadcasting, particularly the news, through this about £1 billion more. The licence fee money, as the challenging and difficult time. I take some comfort noble Lord, Lord Fowler, said, is also being top-sliced, from the Government’s response, which says that they as they say, to help to fund the transition of households agree with the committee that, from analogue to digital broadcasting. “responding to current challenges requires a greater role for the BBC … using its talent, facilities, resources”. Looking forward for cash to sustain other parts of public service broadcasting after digital switchover is We will see exactly what that means in practice. completed in 2012, the option to keep top-slicing the I also believe that what I am saying is what the huge licence fee total will be almost irresistible for any public would want. In the Government’s response we cash-strapped Government, I predict. Today’s switchover come to the department’s familiar Stalinist tradition. I subsidy may well become tomorrow’s contestable funding, remain of the view that it is a great pity that our in Ofcom’s phrase—money that could be bid for to elected Parliament does not have a greater say in some fund good works such as regional news or children’s of these affairs. programming. Our report calls for the introduction of I emphasise that I am not seeking to intervene in contestable funding to support public service broadcasting the day-to-day running of the BBC or challenging its outside the BBC. independent reporting. That is a lazy argument of last Our report also suggests that a partnership between resort used by those who simply want to defend the Channel 4 and BBC Worldwide should be pursued. A status quo. But the public’s view is crucial in deciding joint venture might generate profits of up to £200 million exactly the case that I have been arguing: whether a year—a win-win deal, one hopes—but an important some part of the licence fee should be used for other consideration in structuring such a partnership must purposes, such as helping to support public service be to ensure that BBC Worldwide is not distracted by broadcasting in the commercial sector. That is where internal politics or fettered in its international ambition. Parliament has a proper role to play. In its highly competitive global marketplace, up against Those who oppose that might consider what happens media giants many times its size, BBC Worldwide is at the moment. The Minister will certainly remember Britain’s last best hope of producing a national champion. that the BBC charter and what flows from it are not For politicians, that should be a priority, and any the subject of legislation or any serious decision in partnership with Channel 4 should be fashioned to Parliament; it is a straightforward deal between the strengthen BBC Worldwide as our global player. Government and the BBC in which Parliament has no It is worth noting that after 26 years on air Channel 4’s meaningful role. In this age of much greater transparency audience share is still below 10 per cent. In terms of and promised reform, I do not believe that the present the quantity of popular quality output, particularly in system deserves to last. drama, ITV is the most important public service Even more, what I and the committee want is a broadcaster in the commercial sector as regards range of public service broadcasting in this country programme investment and employment. It is accepted with the BBC remaining in the lead, but with other that the regulatory constraints on ITV should now be broadcasters being enabled to make their contribution. relaxed so that it can continue as a viable public That is the aim and the goal and it is the challenge, service broadcaster. I therefore welcome the prospect over the next years, that we must meet. I beg to move. of ITV being released from any outdated undertakings that limit its ability to get a fair share of the television 4.56 pm advertising markets. Lord Macdonald of Tradeston: My Lords, as a If the economy begins to pick up later this year, member of your Lordships’ Select Committee on ITV will hope that past experience of television advertising Communications, I pay tribute to our chairman, the being the first to suffer in a recession but the first to noble Lord, Lord Fowler, for initiating our brief but recover will still hold true. However, we accept that very timely inquiry, for his skill in editing our deliberations there will be a continuing threat of a loss of advertising 385 Public Service Broadcasting[LORDS] Public Service Broadcasting 386

[LORD MACDONALD OF TRADESTON] alliance with BBC Scotland to launch the Gaelic language to the internet and that that will continue to undermine channel, BBC Alba? In the twilight of the old duopoly the traditional business model of commercial broadcasters in public service broadcasting, it might be timely to in the future. reflect on the fact that Scotland, a nation of 5 million That said, one area where Channel 3 must continue people, is almost unique among comparable countries to compete with the BBC, and ideally match its peak-time in not having a television network that it can call audiences, is in news and current affairs, both nationally its own. and regionally. Despite the quality of UK news on Let me end with positive news for the UK’s other Channel 4 and Sky, both have relatively small audiences. nations. Thankfully the BBC, with its licence fee income The BBC, like all big, long-lived institutions, has developed of £3.5 billion a year, has never been better off. For the its own distinctive culture, which inevitably influences three smaller nations that make up 17 per cent of all its news agenda and colours its reporting. With a those BBC licence payers, the good news is that, at medium still as influential as television, it is important long last, their pitiful share of programme production that peak-time audiences can still watch their popular for the BBC’s UK channels will rise to 17 per cent. For alternative news and current affairs on Channel 3. Scotland, that means 8.6 per cent of a network production This is particularly important in the three nations of budget of almost £900 million—an increase from just the United Kingdom peripheral to England, which, over £30 million a year at present to more than £70 million with 83 per cent of UK viewers, naturally dominates a year. That is a huge boost for which I give all the London-based news services. credit to the director-general of the BBC and to the Since Scotland got its Parliament and Wales and BBC Trust. Northern Ireland their Assemblies, the BBC has broadcast I have one concern: the 8.6 per cent target may not news services adapted to the new needs of the devolved be reached until 2016. Surely, after half a century of nations. Therefore, it is to be hoped that the surviving marginalisation, that is too long a transition, especially independent broadcasters on Channel 3—namely, STV in these rapidly changing times. I hope that Ofcom can in Glasgow and UTV in Belfast—are encouraged to put further pressure on Channel 4 to push up its pursue their ambitions to supply distinctive national percentage of programmes made outside England. I services in greater measure than is required of any trust that our report Public Service Broadcasting: Short- English region. In this regard, we should keep in mind term Crisis, Long-term Future, which has been so ably that in English regions it does not matter quite as outlined by our chairman, will help my noble friend much if you have restricted local coverage because and the Government to preserve what is best in our almost all you see on the ubiquitous UK news broadcasts broadcasting industry so that we can continue to make will reflect other aspects of your nation, England. what I believe is still the best television in the world. The Government and Ofcom are understandably sympathetic, as I am, to ITV plc’s plea that it be allowed to shed its remaining public service obligations. However, ITV plc also wants to renegotiate its contract 5.07 pm to supply programmes on the Channel 3 network to Baroness Flather: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble STV and UTV.Clearly, this would not be a negotiation Lord, Lord Fowler, not only for bringing the debate to of equals, and a deal imposed by ITV could undermine the Chamber but for so clearly stating the case. That the viability of both smaller companies. A condition was extremely helpful because not all of us have the of the merger that created ITV plc was the network noble Lord’s experience. arrangement imposed by Ofcom regarding the supply I have always had one anxiety. I think that we in this of network programmes to the two smaller companies. country treat the BBC as a sacred cow. I am sure that Can the Minister assure us that Ofcom is playing a noble Lords know what I mean. The BBC can get constructive role in brokering an agreement on this away with far more than any of the commercial channels, issue? Can we also be assured that the release of ITV whether in its regulation or in showing something that plc from other public service obligations will be conditional would count as advertising in a commercial broadcast on a settlement that ensures that STV and UTV can but does not in the BBC. I feel strongly that as we pay still aspire to make programming appropriate to the not £3.5 billion but £3.6 billion for the BBC this year, needs of nations with their own distinctive cultures the regulation should be the same; there should at and politics? least be a level playing field in regulation because there Our Select Committee concluded that the affordability is not one in any other sense. and practicability of a new Scottish network and I have had some small experience in a regional digital platform deserved further exploration. The proposal television company called Meridian Broadcasting, which for a Scottish network broadcasting specifically Scottish I joined when it started and stayed with until it was programming came from the Scottish Broadcasting absorbed into ITV. There was always a feeling that the Commission, set up by the Scottish Government. Its regulators came down much harder on the commercial report, Platform for Success, has been endorsed by all companies than on the BBC. If there was a dispute, parties in the Scottish Parliament. The obvious question the BBC had an internal mechanism for resolving it is how to pay for a new network costed at between while the ITV companies did not. I have never been £50 million and £75 million a year. Could that be a happy with that. We should start looking at the BBC candidate for contestable funding? as part of the total provider sector in this country and Will my noble friend explore whether the Scottish not as something special to be protected as a sacred cow. Government are prepared to co-fund a new Scottish When we started to talk about digital switchover, I network, as the previous Scottish Executive did in thought that there was bound to be a lot more 387 Public Service Broadcasting[4 JUNE 2009] Public Service Broadcasting 388 competition. There would be a lot more channels and My other point is that the BBC paid money to Sky a lot more people providing advertising, and that to go on its digital platform—£40 million, I am told. would affect us. ITV tried to find an alternative. If the BBC had joined I do not remember people getting very worked up ITV to try to create an alternative platform, that about that. I was very surprised by that. I am not an would have meant real competition, because everything expert, but it seemed to me logical to think that there is now controlled by Sky, including cable. I have also would be a problem with having all those channels. I been part of a cable company, and all the packages are read somewhere that there was an idea that more time put out by Sky. It controls them all. I find that distressing. could be provided for advertisements. Clearly, that will Of course, it is water under the bridge and we can do not work because there is a finite amount of advertising. nothing about it. However, it is time to start supporting It just means that companies will compete with each our partner broadcaster in this country. other for that advertising; the total pot will not increase. Secondly, I fear that the quality of advertisements will 5.15 pm decrease. I think that we have quite good quality advertisements in this country and we should protect The Lord Bishop of Manchester: MyLords,itisa them. We should not allow advertisements to become privilege to serve on this Select Committee under the ridiculous and of poor quality. excellent chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Fowler. He has eloquently expressed many of the concerns of As has been stated, with that £3.6 billion there is those on the committee. The case for public service now a gap between ITV and the BBC. For the first broadcasting has never simply been about certain time, the BBC has more money than ITV, and that gap subject matters themselves, but about how specialist will grow. Next year, there will be a gap of £1 billion. knowledge of those genres within the industry can Clearly, ITV will not be able to provide what it has help to inform other programme-making and, in turn, been providing. It is useless to imagine that it can permeate our culture. No aspect of public service bridge that gap through revenue, which has been hurt programming should ever be seen as a weight around not only by competition but by the current financial the neck of broadcasters, but rather as an opportunity climate. That kind of gap will mean that we will not be to enrich the fabric of our shared society. The loss of able to stop at just finding a way to provide regional some of that sense of responsibility and the chasing of news; will have to find other ways to help commercial ratings as a primary objective have led to some gaping companies to stay viable and provide the best television. sectors of programming which the marketplace, if left As has already been said, we have the best television, to itself, would simply not provide. In other words, but I would also say that we do not have the best there are certain definable core elements of public television from the BBC. No commercial provider service content that should continue to be supported. would make some of the programmes broadcast on The noble Lord, Lord Fowler, alluded to that at the the BBC. Meridian was offered a programme about beginning of his speech. Spain—I have forgotten what it was called, but it was In connection with that, I was delighted when the a serial about Spain. Meridian said that it was a imaginative plans for MediaCityUK in Salford were ridiculous programme and refused it, but the BBC announced because among the combination of creative took it on. It ran for a while, but it was always a ingredients there seemed to be a clear commitment to ridiculous programme. There was a very expensive enhancing some of those core elements of public serial called Gormenghast. I do not know if any noble service broadcasting. The BBC insists that its plans for Lords saw it or followed it, but I still do not know moving departments are on course, and that includes what it meant or what it was about. Perhaps I am children’s programmes, but what children’s programmes? stupid, but it did not seem to me worth sitting to Many of us are dismayed about the diminution of watch. quantity and quality in children’s television provision. We get a lot of what I feel is a waste of a good Some noble Lords will be too young to remember amount of money. If you have to earn every penny “Blue Peter”, “Crackerjack”or “The Railway Children”. and set up a department that has to sell advertising to Such programmes owed much to the fact that those get the money in, you do not make that sort of who commissioned them were deeply conscious of programme. Then you value the money that comes to their role as cultural mediators and, in a sense, still you. If the money just arrives in the pot, obviously bore the Reithian torch of, there is a slightly different attitude towards it, which is “everything that was best in every department of human knowledge, not a good thing. endeavour and achievement”. I once watched 48 hours of regional broadcasting Of course, we are no longer in a Reithian age, but from the BBC for diversity content. I am sorry to say nevertheless there are certain norms that are true in that it had very poor diversity content. We were given each generation. As the Voice of the Listener and cassettes, I am glad to say, because we could not have Viewer has astutely observed, the quality of programmes done it otherwise, but it had very poor diversity content. children watch as they grow will affect the quality of A lot of the documentaries that the BBC makes about our society when they form the adult population. I minorities and minority areas are not nearly as good find it enormously disappointing and deeply concerning as those of Channel 4. I cannot imagine who would that this aspect of public service broadcasting appears ever think that we can bring Channel 4 and five to be given such short shrift. together. I do not see much merit in channel five. It Meanwhile, ITV has pulled out of the Salford plans never had merit to begin with and it has not acquired and will now remain in Manchester in new it. I do not speak for channel five. accommodation. With both those cities in my diocese, 389 Public Service Broadcasting[LORDS] Public Service Broadcasting 390

[THE LORD BISHOP OF MANCHESTER] Public service broadcasting that fails to reflect the for me to make an appropriately judged comment complex realities of faith in the modern world will fall would require more than the wisdom of Solomon. short of helping people to understand themselves, the However, I can say that this withdrawal by ITV may communities in which they live and the global issues have a significant impact on the training facilities and we all face. The composer, James MacMillan, in a experience that are a key aspect of MediaCityUK’s lecture to the Sandford St Martin Trust, which I proposed role. As the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, told chaired last year, said that, our Select Committee in its current taking of evidence, “religion is, and will continue to be, for good and for ill, a when ITV was released from so much of its PSB constant in humanity’s narrative about itself”. obligation, it virtually walked away from its commitment Therefore, I find it curious that although the Select to training. That is very serious, not least for the future Committee’s first recommendation specifically mentions of public service broadcasting of quality. programmes dealing with religion and other beliefs, The third major ingredient in MediaCityUK was the Government’s response mentions all the other heralded as the independent programme-makers, which core elements of public service broadcasting that were part of the trio with BBC and ITV that would the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, cited, included in our make it a world-class centre and enhance public service recommendation, but they exclude religion and other broadcasting. But the chairman of Northwest Vision beliefs. Why? and Media, a strategic authority for the creative industries Perhaps it is included in the phrase, “among other in the region, said last month that broadcasters and things”. But what does that mean? Is it meant to cover educational establishments, which include the forward- a multitude of sins or a plurality of religions? If it is looking media studies department at Salford University, the latter—for I hope that there can be no other will need to have the resources to get the benefit of the conclusion—why is it so squeamish? In the light of lower-cost content that could be made in these more what must have been a conscious omission, the final modern methods. He said: sentence of the Government’s response to our “The whole thing is a bit of a circle”. recommendation sounds a bit ominous. They say: That reinforces my huge concern that the training “There may well be a need to balance competing priorities”. opportunities, which were such a key part of the Perhaps I have succumbed to a fit of paranoia and, if imaginative MediaCityUK plans, may become much so, I am sure that the Minister will be quick to reassure less than hoped for. That is so serious because our me. national reputation for high-quality public service Part of public service broadcasting strength in this broadcasting in particular has depended on high-quality country is its ability to touch mass audiences and not training. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, to be consigned to a ghetto. The opportunity now is will forgive me for quoting him again. He said that an for PSB to be available on as many platforms as abundance of talent of every kind is the only certain possible—in other words, to expand and not to decline. way of ensuring a bright future for the whole of the Further withdrawal, for example from local TV news, sector. Another department destined for MediaCityUK would have an adverse effect in many of the places is religion and ethics, which, along with children’s where I serve. It would hit local pride and community programmes and local and regional television news, is cohesion. So I hope very much that the Government an aspect of public service broadcasting mentioned in will soon come to a decision about, for example, our report and specified as a requirement in the Ofcom’s proposals for independently funded news Communications Act 2003. consortia and the BBC’s counterview, to ensure the In 2007, an Ofcom survey showed that 75 per cent continuing plurality of regional news. It really does of people believe that, affect places such as Manchester. The noble Lord, Lord Fowler, mentioned the decline of local newspapers, “TV should help to promote understanding of religions, cultures and that is demonstrably true across Greater Manchester. & lifestyles”. Only last week, I stood among the few remaining staff This week, two top award-winning programmes came in the huge, almost empty building that contained from the BBC religion and ethics department. They what was Rochdale’s once hugely successful newspaper. were called “Around the World in 80 Faiths” and Although still valued, it is sadly only a shadow of its “Miracle on the Estate”, the latter of which was former self. filmed in Manchester’s most deprived area. Those What is clear in our report and the Government’s programmes demonstrated well PSB’s role in promoting response is that public service broadcasting simply understanding and social cohesion. must not be left to the BBC alone. Partnerships would I am glad to note that the BBC has established a be a step in the right direction, but funding issues standing committee on religion and belief. No other require tenacious long-sightedness and a genuinely genre in the BBC has this. It is to be chaired by my sustainable model that does not risk scuppering the friend, the right reverend Prelate the Lord Bishop of long-term future of PSB because of short-term expediency, Norwich, who cannot be in his place today. It will an unwillingness to face up to tough questions or a reflect the diversity of the nation’s religions and those desire to shrink from radical interventions. of no faith. The director-general of the BBC has Ofcom research showing that the public are willing personally assured me of the corporation’s determination to pay for PSB over and above the licence fee to strengthen its religious output as part of the BBC’s should not be jettisoned just because of the recession; public service broadcasting remit. I welcome that and that will end. Nor is the advertising situation will watch and listen closely for it. terminally hopeless. The rise of internet players such 391 Public Service Broadcasting[4 JUNE 2009] Public Service Broadcasting 392 as Channel 4’s 4 On Demand opens new doors for that there is a fairly narrow range of options in front internet advertising, and the on-demand audio channel of us; these are, in general terms, outlined in the Spotify is an example of the successful provision of report. I am extremely anxious—I use that word in a free advertising-funded web content. On that subject, general sense—that the matters described in the report a pot of money from which broadcasters could bid for will be a precursor to a series of much more intractable PSB funding could be part of the solution. While we problems. It is not simply because I have spent too all agreed on the committee that there is opposition to much time listening to the noble Lord, Lord Maxton, top-slicing the licence fee, and from some quarters to that I believe convergence between the internet, radio, the proposed diversion of ring-fenced digital switchover TV, film and newspapers is taking place; it is more or funds to help other broadcasters after 2012, I wonder less on us now. Because of this we need not only to whether negligible inflation allows enough slack in the identify what a public service broadcaster might be, RPI-linked licence fee to make this at least worth but what a broadcaster, pure and simple, might be. At revisiting. the same time we need to identify the kind of intellectual Whatever options for funding are chosen, securing property regime which will form the legal framework a sustainable future for public service broadcasting within which all this will be carried on in the future. cannot be left to chance. The Government’s response, It is clear from the evidence that the Communications so far as it goes, is encouraging and I look forward to Committee has been receiving recently that, for example, their forthcoming report on digital Britain. I pray the distinction between film and television as it has God, and it must be permissible for me to say that traditionally been is beginning to break down. Equally, from these Benches, that a thriving dynamic plurality the same is happening between material in the printed of public service broadcasting, which for so long has newspaper and material on the internet. These are been such a key ingredient in what has made British merely two examples of a much wider phenomenon. broadcasting the envy of the world, will continue to The character and the means of both distribution and inform and enlighten our culture in the United Kingdom. reception of digital material is myriad. Audiences are increasingly flexible in the way in which they consume 5.28 pm it, and they approach it differently according to the means of distribution employed. For example, watching Lord Inglewood: My Lords, in his opening remarks, a film on a mobile phone or on a laptop is a very the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester different experience from going to see the film in the said what a privilege it was to serve on the cinema and are not alternatives to most people who Communications Committee under my noble friend do that. Lord Fowler. I do not want to gainsay that, but it is a pleasure and a delight to do so. My noble friend had In a world where there is no monopoly of distribution, considerable trouble getting this debate, and in so everyone becomes a supplier of digital material. This doing I dare say he abandoned his customary congeniality, has obvious and massive implications for public service but it is important that he has done so because it broadcasters and what they do. Equally, as a consequence, appears that there is an immediate problem with public it has implications for the way in which they are going sector broadcasting. That being the case, it is only to be funded. This obviously includes the licence fee. It right that Parliament should discuss it. Moreover, may have been set for a period up to 2012 but I am not given that there is a problem with public service sure that that will be of any relevance by the time we broadcasting, the Government must get involved. If reach 2012. Given the speed with which change has they do not, there is likely to be blood on the carpet crept up on us, all this needs to be thought about and wreckage from the sector as we have come to extremely deeply and thoroughly, and soon. We are know it. Again, it is important to note that if that were facing immediately a crisis brought about by the to happen, Parliament should discuss it. congruence of the collapse of advertising revenue and technological change. But I do not think it is the end I believe, first, that public service broadcasting as of the story because we are not going to go back to the we have it continues to be important. Secondly, I status quo ante when the current financial crisis is believe that PSB should not be a BBC monopoly, and over. I suspect that the broadcasting/digital world may in this as in other areas of life, pluralism must be what be very different from the one we have been used to. It we aspire to. Finally, PSB must be at arm’s length from may well be the case that we ain’t seen nothing yet. the Government. I declare an interest as chairman of the CN Group, a local newspaper group in Cumbria. It has been suggested by some that the Government should subsidise 5.34 pm local newspapers. I should like to put it on record that, Lord Puttnam: My Lords, I add my thanks to the for my part, I am entirely opposed to that. Equally, I noble Lord, Lord Fowler, for not only securing the think it is right that the taxpayer should not bankroll debate but for the excellent report on which it is based. publications that are in competition with local newspapers. His committee goes from strength to strength and I As has already been touched on today, in our report am far from alone in the House in hoping that as soon we have considered whether contestable funding has a as possible it could lose its provincial driving licence place in the context of the current crisis. Even bearing and have its long-term future secured. in mind my caveat about chairing a local newspaper It will not have escaped your Lordships’ notice that group, I think it may well do. It is an important we are rapidly approaching what might be described possibility that needs to be looked into with care. as the end game in terms of the direction likely to But, because of the nature of the immediate problems be offered by the forthcoming government report facing the public service broadcasting sector, I suspect Digital Britain. 393 Public Service Broadcasting[LORDS] Public Service Broadcasting 394

[LORD PUTTNAM] BBC as being an imposition on its editorial independence. Here I declare an interest as deputy chair of Channel Happily, those two organisations seem to be rubbing Four. That is the same hat I was wearing when, in along rather better nowadays. April last year, I accepted an invitation to a very I could go on at great length, but I hope my point is pleasant dinner hosted by the BBC Trust, then quite clear: here is an immensely successful organisation recently formed. That evening we discussed the future that seems compulsively to feel that any development of the BBC and of public service broadcasting more within the media space it occupies represents a threat, generally, and I strongly recommended that the BBC possibly a mortal threat, to its survival. ensure that it takes on the role of the architect of the future of PSB in this country, which everyone at that So we reach today and the regrettable possibility of dinner regarded as being, in the long term, an endangered a continuation of the corporation’s them-or-us attitude species. I got no sense but that this view was generally towards the whole of the rest of the content world. I accepted as being sensible, and certainly the right remain a huge admirer of the BBC but, as wiser heads direction of travel. I probably should have known than mine have pointed out, it seriously endangers better—I had forgotten the lessons of history. itself if it seeks to remain part of the problem instead of becoming that architect of a long-term answer—that From its inception, the BBC has only ever truly is, achieving the plurality of voice that a broad consensus been the architect—I could say, the all-consuming of both Houses and all parties appears to regard as architect—of its own immediate future. In this respect, essential to the future of democracy. it is probably worth taking a quick canter through the I will not delay the House by niggling about the corporation’s history. Originally starting as a private inappropriate parsimony of the corporation’s approach company, it became a public corporation only in 1927. to what it describes as “partnerships”. It will suffice to Success as our sole national radio broadcaster was read the letter from ITV’s chief operating officer, John rapid, and the first serious challenge to its sense of Cresswell, in yesterday’s Financial Times regarding his self-preservation came, ironically, from within. frustrations in trying to achieve an agreement with the Early experiments in television had been treated BBC over the sharing of regional news obligations. benevolently, but with little serious interest from the Sadly, the experience he relates is all too familiar to top. It was not until the televising of the 1948 Olympics those who have ever attempted to design a sustainable that things started to get serious, when the number of future for all the various components of our broad receivers in the London area increased fourfold to public service offering. over 66,000 by the end of the Games. The then In the coming few days the BBC has a unique Comptroller of Television, Norman Collins, was opportunity to change the habit of a lifetime by proving sufficiently jubilant to write: my analysis quite wrong in generously and unambiguously “once television is truly national it will become the most important setting out a future for public service broadcasting medium that exists … the first casualty of television, possibly the that is plural, inclusive and, in production terms, as only casualty, is not the local cinema or the local country theatre, broadly based as possible. When I walked off into the it is sound radio”. night following that meeting with the trust, I was For daring to question the then received wisdom—that confident that it had in mind exactly this type of is, the primacy of radio—Norman Collins was quickly outcome. I find it almost tragic that the ghost of given the boot. Lord Reith was no pushover but, as far autocracy past appears to have come back to haunt its as I can make out, it was this that set the seal on future deliberations. decades of autocracy. Without unduly delaying your Lordships, I have The next threat rolled along a few years later in one very specific proposal that I would like to take the 1952, when on 11 July Parliament started to seriously opportunity of today’s debate to float out into the discuss the possibility of a second television channel, ether. Our public service broadcasters are in receipt of opposed in principle by the then doyenne of television, a variety of forms of support from the public purse, Grace Wyndham Goldie, who reportedly told a which gives them a clear line of responsibility to the parliamentary committee that the whole idea of a taxpayer as well as to the licence fee payers they serve. second channel was fatuous as she could barely put However, they are often unable to prepare programming together a talented enough team to deliver one channel. and online services in a timely fashion to reflect major Market forces, driven by scarcity, were obviously in political debates, as they have little access to key play even at that early date. policymakers and other political thinking on a wider number of crucial social issues. The problem is exacerbated There then began a two-year struggle for what was by the long lead times the broadcasters require to described as “the soul of the nation” when the then prepare the very best of such material. As a consequence, Conservative Government had the temerity to suggest their ability to deliver public value to the taxpayer and that the most appropriate competition might be mounted to the licence fee payer in the form of public understanding by an advertising-supported channel and not one and participation is greatly diminished. controlled and operated by the BBC. The corporation I would like to see a secure and non-partisan channel mounted a fearsome rearguard action, and the Bill of communication established between government establishing what became ITV was passed by only six officials and public service broadcasters to help the votes, to receive Royal Assent on 30 July 1954. latter prepare content, where they feel it is appropriate, More battles followed. As chancellor of the Open that could better reflect the breadth of thinking and University, it saddens me to recall that the creation of the possible options in relation to critical forthcoming the OU was initially opposed root and branch by the debates, at both a national and international level. 395 Public Service Broadcasting[4 JUNE 2009] Public Service Broadcasting 396

I propose that a mechanism be created which would passage of the Communications Act 2003—the definition enable the editorial and policy units—particularly, but proposed by my noble friend Lord Birt of “a programme not exclusively, those attached to the public service tradition with citizens rather than consumers in mind”. broadcasters—to have a formal and privileged access to emerging government thinking on a range of political, I shall emphasise four issues in the report, the first social and economic issues, as far in advance as is of which, the Government’s response indicates, will practicable. To ensure the non-partisan nature of this find favour. British experience since the BBC ceased to arrangement, any such discussion should fall under be the monopoly public service broadcast provider has the aegis of the Cabinet Office and, through it, to the convinced everyone that there must be at least one relevant Permanent Secretaries, along with such senior public service competitor for the BBC. I agree with officials as they may designate. other noble Lords that ITV, with its successful track record of combining PSB with commercial programming This country currently suffers from a crippling trust and, above all, its impartial, independent news, is the deficit. Any such scheme that was able to inject trust one of the most obvious candidates. We should not and co-operation into the widening gap between policy forget either its commendable record of sourcing UK development and public understanding would, in my content. On the other hand, because of the undeniable judgment, be a small but significant step forward. and increasingly rapid move of the advertising industry Let me be crystal clear: in no way is this a proposition to the internet, ITV, as it made abundantly clear to us, that is designed to tame the broadcasters—quite the will need adequate financing for any future PSB role, contrary. In an age often said to be laden with political all the more so in light of the Treasury’s confiscation spin, I hope that it would allow them much more of the valuable analogue spectrum. effectively to be the grit in the oyster of many political debates, putting down serious challenges to the I underline, secondly, the crucial need for the Government of the day and to the Executive, but continuance of a second nationwide, independent, based on fact, not theory. In fact, I think this kind of impartial public service broadcaster news service. Again, proposal is all of a piece with the kind of thinking ITV’s track record clearly makes it one of the major about the public value of public service broadcasters candidates, so long as the necessary finance and which underlies the whole of the noble Lord’s report. partnerships are assured. It is clear, too, that UK As I say, I also think that it is the kind of partnership citizens want this. Ofcom’s research showed that 86 per which broadcasters would welcome if they are really cent of our citizens wanted international news to be to step up to the plate on their public responsibilities, available on more than one public service broadcasting most particularly in an age when it is ever more channel. difficult to sort the wheat from the chaff, deluged as In this context, the BBC has already suggested we are with vast amounts of information every minute some sharing of facilities and the use of some of its of the day. material in regional news programmes. One understands Today we have gone to the polls to vote on Europe. that many conversations are still under way and one I do not think that anyone could honestly claim that expects to see many of these initiatives rolled out in young people in this country have a clue, or have been due course. In light of Ofcom’s research showing high adequately informed, about what these issues are. citizen demand—72 per cent—for specific nations and Therefore, any proposal which could enable better, regions news services, I agree that the Government more accurate and more timely information to be should also consider the relaxation of competition available to young people must be a step forward. I rules to allow some combination of print news and recommend it to the House. broadcast media companies. Children’s PSB programming is another area where 5.43 pm more resources are needed, with 76 per cent of parents Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, I add urging more UK-sourced provision. Here, too, PSB my congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, competition is important, but—I could not agree more on his quite exceptional chairmanship of our with the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Communications Committee. It would be hard to find Manchester—the BBC clearly has the major responsibility. a more diligent and hardworking Select Committee, We must therefore hear rather more from the BBC and I certainly hope, along with the noble Lord, Lord about what priority children’s programmes will have in Puttnam, that it will at last be established on a permanent its future plans. I would include in that not least its basis. online programmes. Many people, for example, will Debating our report before the Government had want to know what will replace the recently axed fully responded was clearly not ideal. However, I am children’s online service, BBC Jam. grateful for their interim reaction which at least gives There was particular concern at Radio 4’s decision your Lordships a further opportunity to re-emphasise to end the last existing BBC children’s radio programme, the points that we regard as crucial if public service put out on a Sunday evening. My noble friend Lady broadcasting is indeed to survive in this economically Warnock made a quite brilliant speech on behalf of challenged and rapidly changing digital world. Sound Start—which has previously piloted a children’s As the report starts by saying, defining public service radio programme—on 14 May, criticising Radio 4’s broadcasting has challenged many of our interviewed decision and stressing the importance of listening for experts, quite apart from ourselves. Inevitably, we all the development of children’s imagination. I urge those have our own preferences. I prefer—perhaps not least responsible for Radio 4’s programming and, failing because of the citizen consumer battles during the that, the BBC Trust to think again. 397 Public Service Broadcasting[LORDS] Public Service Broadcasting 398

[BARONESS HOWE OF IDLICOTE] channels—even among those who, peculiar though it My third point is on the proposals being advanced may seem, are not interested in racing, where the BBC for partnerships and alternative forms of funding for is stuck in the starting stalls while Channel 4 proceeds public service broadcasting. The BBC Worldwide/ to make the running. Channel 4 merger suggested by Ofcom, and perhaps Without Channel 4, the BBC would have a monopoly still favoured by the Government, seemed to many if of non-commercial public service broadcasting. ITV not all of us on the Select Committee a step too far. It has deserted or is deserting the field. Under its present would make good sense—and it is one of the benefits leadership, it has downgraded—I apologise for the of the state that we are in—to use this time to see what pun—anything that could claim to be public service kind of partnership can be developed and to see broadcasting. Axing the “South Bank Show” is an act whether the BBC will form as good a partnership as it of cultural vandalism that future generations will wonder has promised to form. BBC Worldwide, under the at. Sky Arts does a great job on limited resources, but direction of John Smith, has done exceptionally well. it is of course an arm of a gigantic commercial broadcaster Not least, it earned one of this year’s prestigious and relies on its benevolence to keep it going. Absent awards for industry. Channel 4, with its hugely successful Channel 4, there would be the danger of a BBC record of commissioning films, has far more international monopoly. Monopoly is, ipso facto, undesirable, even revenue to be exploited. A partnership would also give if it is a monopoly in the hands of a world-class time to see how all that could be developed. institution such as the BBC. Certainly, that is the view My fourth point is on the vexed question of where of the committee of the noble Lord, Lord Fowler. further funding can possibly come from for the It says: underfunded, yet citizen-valued, PSB areas; whether “We believe there would be dangers if the BBC were to news, drama or children’s programmes. As we say in become an even more dominant provider of public service paragraph 81 of our report, in some of those areas a programming”. case may already be outlined for contestable funding, Channel4hasdoneaquiteremarkablejob.Itsometimes to which would-be PSB programme-makers could apply. seems almost to defy gravity. That cannot go on for If by 2012 there is an underspend of the BBC licence ever. The economics of the television market are such fee fund—and many figures have been put on this—I, that it will not go on doing it on the present basis; it too, would go along with believing that it should be needs more money.Some sources can be ruled out. The one source of funding. I am less sure about going advertising market’s extremely weak short run is likely much further than that. to remain quite weak and in the end there will not be Equally, I can see no reason why the considerable more money. Given the state of public finances, it does value of analogue spectrum should accrue only to the not have a prayer of getting more money from the Treasury. However, if that was to happen—which I Treasury. It is hard to avoid the conclusion that one would support—how should such resources be allocated? way or another there is only one source of more money, It would not, I hope, be through the creation of yet and that is the BBC and its licence fee. another quango. Surely, Ofcom could do the job by However, there is an obstacle. The BBC is a world-class setting up an organisation not dissimilar to its consumer institution and, among the things that go with being a panel. We may all have been aware of the fact that, world-class institution, it is a world-class lobbyist. The although there was something called a content board, BBC’s position at Westminster has been noticeably it was in fact the consumer panel that seemed to do a weakened these past 12 months by the Jonathan Ross considerable amount on behalf of the citizen. Above affair and its stance on the Gaza emergency appeal. all, it published its reports so that they were in the That is not a statement of opinion on either of those public domain. I urge that particular form on Ofcom things, but a measurable fact from talking to people and the Government to think about very seriously. around the House. If it were not so, the Tories would not have dared move their recent populist motion in 5.52 pm another place to freeze the licence fee. To put it crudely— Lord Lipsey: My Lords, we must be profoundly they thought there were votes in it. However, the BBC grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, and his remains a giant beast in the jungle. I still bear the scars colleagues, many of whom have spoken in this debate, of the long battle to get it to be subject to some form for the admirably succinct, clear and well argued report. of public account scrutiny. It came up again today I shall focus on one issue—how we preserve Channel 4. with the BBC trying—rightly or wrongly—to keep Despite the advocacy of the noble Lord, Lord Terry Wogan’s salary away from the committee. You Puttnam, the affairs of Channel 4 get only a fraction get into a very dangerous and long drawn-out battle if of the attention in both Houses of Parliament as those you do not entirely take the BBC’s view on things. of the BBC or even ITV.That is partly because there is The BBC will fight tooth and nail against topslicing, an All-Party Parliamentary BBC Group, as there is contestability, the reallocation of its digital switchover one for ITV, admirably chaired by the noble Lord, money and anything else that might cost it a bob or Lord McNally, but there is no Channel 4 group. That two. That is why the solution advocated by the noble needs to be remedied in the very near future. Leaving Lord, Lord Fowler—and I hope that Channel 4 will aside the formalities of all-party groups, if you talk get some money through some sort of partnership television with Members of this House—and with our with Worldwide—is a good one. The devil is in the hours being what they are we watch only a fraction of detail and the detail is proving very testing, but agreement the television that normal human beings watch—it is there has to be. It is not the most logical solution—the surprising the extent to which it is Channel 4 that most logical solution would be to take a chunk of people are talking about and not the other main licence fee money and give it to Channel 4—but it may 399 Public Service Broadcasting[4 JUNE 2009] Public Service Broadcasting 400 be the most practicable solution, and I would rather light of the spread of broadband. On that matter I that Channel 4 got more support through an illogical strongly agree with the remarks of the noble Lord, means than no support because we insisted on the Lord Inglewood. logical means. The crisis in commercial PSB has been more drastic An immediate question arises from this—I think I and happened more quickly than anyone ever expected am talking in this Chamber only to supporters of the because of the recession. That said, little planning was BBC and I really mean it when I say it is a world-class done to anticipate the inevitable. As we have heard institution—can the BBC afford to give up any money today, ITV and Channel 4 are at particular risk. I to Channel 4 while maintaining its role as a full service worked at London Weekend Television in the 1980s, public service broadcaster? Can it even afford a larger but I am not sentimental. At that time we saw the birth knock from a direct subvention to Channel 4 as opposed of Channel 4, breakfast television and home video. to the indirect subvention involved in the Worldwide We have been extremely lucky that the PSB ecology of deal? the past 20 to 30 years has lasted as long as it has, but I was a member of the Davies committee on the now we need to recognise that the model needs changing. BBC licence fee in 1999, and a great experience that However, it is essential—the public are insistent on was. The committee had a mixed membership but it this—that the plurality of PSB provision continues. If agreed, as it happened, on everything except one thing; it does not, we will have the danger of the BBC being how much money the BBC needed. I recall that my the elephant in the room, unduly dominating all forms noble friend Lord Gordon, who is unfortunately unable of television activity. The committee made this point to be with us this afternoon, was on the low end of the well. As it points out, however, we need better financial spectrum. The chairman, Gavyn Davies, was at the information from the commercial public service high end of the spectrum, which was as well as he went broadcasters. On any judgment, we are seeing PSB on to be chairman of the BBC. I was somewhere in the market failure. middle, with all the other members scattered in between. I am a keen Sky news watcher, but I do not accept I make that point simply to say that well-meaning Sky’s denial that there is no crisis in advertising-based people with a strongly pro-BBC view in life, which models. I do not want ITV, with its great PSB tradition every member of that committee had, came to quite which was so well described by the noble Lord, Lord different conclusions on how much money it needed. Birt, in his evidence to the committee, to walk off into It is a matter of judgment. the purely commercial sunset—not least because of To conclude our Thursday Back-Bench contributions the impact that that would have on STV and UTV—or on a rather wicked note, my own yardstick is that so to allow Channel 4, with its extraordinary track record long as the BBC can afford BBC Three it has too of innovation, to fail. That would have a huge impact much money. Here is a channel, much to most of the on the creative industries, particularly independent content of which is paltry, aimed at appeasing a mythical producers. target audience of young viewers who the commercial In this debate, however, we should see the BBC’s market can adequately cater for in any case, at a cost position and strength as an opportunity and not a of some £125 million per annum, and which is watched problem. We will not solve problems at ITV and by the average viewer for three minutes a day. Compare Channel 4 by reducing the BBC’s ability to make good that with the use that Channel 4 could make of money programmes. On these Benches we fundamentally disagree on that scale, which amounts to nearly a third of its with the Conservative attempt in the other place before total programme budget, and there is no contest. the Recess to freeze the licence fee. We are generally satisfied that the BBC is using its resources wisely, making considerable economies and efficiencies—some £2 billion over the past eight years. The answer is not 6pm to hobble the BBC but to ensure that it is part of the Lord Clement-Jones: My Lords, I join with others solution. We need to harness its increasingly innovative in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, on approach to the benefit of the wider PSB universe. initiating today’s wide-ranging and fascinating debate. I usually agree strongly with what the noble Lord, This short report and today’s debate have rightly created Lord Puttnam, has to say, but I thought that he was a great amount of interest, not least from broadcasting unduly apocalyptic about the BBC in his speech today. organisations which believe that the noble Lord, Lord On these Benches we are opposed to top-slicing. We Carter, may still be in receiving mode prior to the opposed the use of licence fee money for digital switchover. imminent publication of the Digital Britain review. I We took the view that this was a government social also congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, and policy that should be paid for by the Government in his committee on eliciting such a lucid holding response the same way as they pay for reduced or free licences from the Government. for the over-75s. This is a brief but extremely impressive report, In 2005, Sir Michael Grade said that, particularly the succinct—I note that the noble Lord, “top slicing would break the clear and well understood line of Lord Lipsey, used the same adjective—introductory accountability between the BBC and the licence-fee payer … discussion of what is meant by “public service would pose a threat to the political independence of the BBC, broadcasting”. I agree that the nature of the content is handing a punitive fiscal sword of Damocles to any unscrupulous increasingly crucial, as is universal access, but we government that wanted to bring the BBC to heel”. should decreasingly predicate on which platform the That was strong but characteristic language and these content should be made available, particularly in the Benches agree with that view. 401 Public Service Broadcasting[LORDS] Public Service Broadcasting 402

[LORD CLEMENT-JONES] continue to provide a viable alternative to BBC regional The BBC has a long history of working in partnership news services. There is clearly a massive difference in with other broadcasters for the public benefit—for perception on the right way forward, with the BBC example, on Freeview, Freesat, DAB, Canvas, SAC seemingly in fundamental disagreement with Ofcom Wales—and there are many partnership proposals on and ITV.The BBC has entered into a partnership with the table or in the pipeline. Given that the BBC is ITV to share some local resources, but although it already entering into creative partnerships—for example, provides some benefit, it is clearly not satisfactory to sharing regional news facilities with ITV—we should either party. Has the time come to have a partnership formalise this role by establishing a duty on the BBC between the BBC and a new third party regional news in the BBC Charter to work in partnership with other provider, rather than to continue with ITV limping broadcasters for mutual benefit and added public along as the provider? This should be discussed. I value. The BBC could then set up a partnership fund agree completely with what the noble Lord, Lord for this work. This could include the anticipated Macdonald, said about STV and UTV. It is vital that £250 million digital switchover surplus and the money we ensure that they are able to carry on with their already identified as going into partnership work. In broadcasting without having ITV in such a strong the future it could include the equivalent of the digital position in the negotiations. switchover part of the licence fee. Like others, I have been following the progress of Any projects being funded out of the partnership negotiations on a link-up or even merger between fund should be justified and properly overseen. Any BBC Worldwide and Channel 4. At first I was very proposal would have to pass some basic tests before sceptical about whether that would work. I thought being considered, such as whether it benefits the BBC, that they were very different animals set up to do very the licence fee payer or a third party. Crucially, in different things and with different rights granted by order to ensure proper oversight of this new duty in programme creators. However, I am now a convert, the BBC Charter, we must set up an independent PSB largely for the reasons put forward by the committee—that regulator along the lines originally proposed by the there is a common culture and it could work to the noble Lord, Lord Burns, whose evidence to the committee advantage of both organisations. Also, the enthusiasm I found fascinating. The BBC Trust would be folded shown by both BBC Worldwide and Channel 4 must back into the BBC and essentially act as a conventional be taken into account, as must the belief that a profit board of directors responsible for strategy and governance. of £200 million per annum could be generated by a In contrast, the committee advocates the idea of joint venture. But a merger—described as “corporate contestable funding for PSB content. That is a very engineering” in the evidence to the committee—may attractive idea in many ways; the problem is where the not be a viable option. At the minimum, I hope that a funding for it is to come from if not from the licence joint venture is possible. If it is to happen there needs fee. In our view it is viable only if we can deliver to be leadership, and I hope that both the Minister—the additional funding that does not raid the licence fee, noble Lord, Lord Carter—and the Digital Britain such as through sales of the analogue spectrum. However, report itself will provide that. I suspect that that money has already been notionally Although the noble Lord, Lord Carter, was very spent twice over by the Government. positive about the need to support children’s television We have talked much about the financial crisis in his evidence to the committee, there are strong facing ITV. It is hardly surprising that a consistent rumours that the Digital Britain review will do little to theme of Sir Michael Grade’s term as executive chairman help. I therefore wrote to him on behalf of the Liberal has been the need for ITV to throw off some of its Democrat shadow DCMS team urging him to consider PSB obligations to save costs. Some of its decisions that area anew. Less than 1 per cent of children’s TV are understandable but others are extremely regrettable, programmes broadcast in the UK are made in UK. such as the decision to axe the “South Bank Show”. The situation is getting worse. Ofcom confirmed that Ministers claim that they understand the crisis facing UK children’s television is a key public service genre ITV and indeed other commercial broadcasters, but and faces funding issues. It identified the clear market they have failed to provide a crucial piece of help failure in children’s television. It found that £40 million which was within their power—allowing product has come out of the industry in recent years, and that placement. We should trust broadcasters to know how investment in new UK children’s TV programmes is to advertise without destroying their viewers’ experience. forecast to halve over this decade, with the BBC left as If people do not like the way that broadcasters use the only significant broadcaster outside pre-school product placement they will go elsewhere for their programmes. entertainment. Product placement is already being Both the House of Commons Culture, Media and seen by British audiences in much of the imported Sport Select Committee and our own House of Lords content that we have on our screens. The decision by Communications Committee, in reports last year, the Secretary of State, Mr Burnham, earlier this year supported funding for children’s television. The Digital means that British producers and broadcasters will Britain interim report acknowledged Ofcom’s findings lose out on that vital income. On some estimates this and stated that UK children’s content would be a could amount to an additional £150 million per annum priority in its conclusions. Ofcom’s most recent consumer in revenue to ITV, which would be a significant boost. research identified that parents valued children’s Then, of course, there is the question of ITV’s programming as highly as nations and regions news, regional news services. I am a Londoner, so others and in fact considered children’s content a higher might be more qualified to speak about the value of priority than regional news in terms of the need for an regional news. However, we must find a solution and increase in current provision. A number of models 403 Public Service Broadcasting[4 JUNE 2009] Public Service Broadcasting 404 have been put forward including an extension of “has more to do with the company’s laudable aspirations to Channel 4’s remit. We on these Benches have extend its business into many new areas ... than any real dangers advanced the idea of a tax credit akin to that enjoyed to its core business”. by the film industry. There is clear justification for As many of your Lordships have asked, could this just special treatment to ensure the future production of be a guise for channels to seek more taxpayers’ money UK children’s television programmes, and it is vital to fund their own commercial projects? What protections that the Digital Britain review tackles the subject and have we against channels with these motives? Should provides solutions. we not insist that any corporation receiving or seeking We are all setting great store by the forthcoming taxpayers’ money be subjected to proper scrutiny and Digital Britain report, and are extremely grateful to independent review? the committee for its well timed report. I hope that the Could other areas within the industry be evaluated Government will take note of the many excellent and trimmed down to provide cost savings? For example, points made by the committee but firmly set their face it can be argued that the royal charter, the BBC Trust against top-slicing in favour of a strong partnership and Ofcom are all charged with approximately the role and obligations for the BBC. same responsibility of upholding the independence and high standards of PSB and of acting in the best 6.13 pm interests of licence fee payers. Could that be considered an overlap or overregulation and a waste of resources Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, I too thank the which, in this climate, might be better used elsewhere? noble Lord, Lord Fowler, for securing this diverse Their aims are enshrined in the spirit of ensuring debate on this informative and important report by independence. After glancing at their composition, I the Communications Committee on public service think that their ability to perform this role could be broadcasting. Having heard so many praises from all questioned. According to the website, the chairman of his committee members, I wish that I, too, had had the the BBC Trust is a former Labour Party councillor, chance to be on the committee under his enlightened and the chief executive officer of Ofcom is a former leadership. policy adviser to Tony Blair who worked at another The committee has made a number of company as an adviser to Gordon Brown. Furthermore, recommendations aimed at modernising the public as we all know, the appointment to the board of service broadcasting industry so that, in these difficult Ofcom is made by the Secretaries of State for the and challenging economic times, it may survive this Department of Trade and Industry and the Department short-term crisis and secure a long-term future. The for Culture, Media and Sport. Does the noble Lord perceived crisis within some areas of PSB could be honestly believe that, as a result, these bodies are seen as a little exaggerated, apart from in advertising. genuinely at arm’s length from the Government, as The report’s evidence illustrates that none of the channels stressed so clearly by my noble friend Lord Inglewood? is particularly suffering, perhaps with the slight exception Despite the tone of the report being centred on the of ITV, which experienced revenue losses of 3 per cent lack of funds, curiously it finishes by discussing what in 2008 and is predicted to have to make cuts to the could be done with the underspend of the digital tune of £245 million by 2011. However, even it remains switchover programme after completion. Can the Minister confident that it will survive and be, explain to the House why this money could not be “in a fitter state when the economy eventually turns”. used to keep vital regional news programmes on air, Channel Five’s owner, RTL, stated in its annual report together with, for example, fine programmes such as that in 2006-07 revenue was up by 7 per cent, pre-tax, “The South Bank Show”, especially in the light of the and that it was pretty self-sufficient. It, too, thought Government’s refusal to waiver this year’s 2 per cent that it would weather the changes in the industry, licence fee rise, as requested earlier this year by despite the difficult economic conditions. The Enders the Conservative Party? Does this not illustrate the Analysis report in 2008 stated that in many ways Government’s lack of judgment in relation to the Channel 4 is financially in the strongest position among public finances and does it not do little to maintain advertiser-funded public service broadcasters. The channel the bond of trust between the PSB, the Government holds substantial reserves and has no pension deficits and the people? I greatly look forward to the or indebtedness. Finally, the report describes the BBC’s Minister’s response. financial position as being securer than that of virtually any other business in the country. The corporation’s 6.20 pm total income in 2008 was £4.4 billion. Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, we are all It would be wrong of me not to mention at this grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, for his stage that the UK is held in the highest respect worldwide presentation of the report, his introduction of the for our PSB, especially the BBC, which, as my noble debate and his chairmanship of the Select Committee. friend Lord Fowler stressed, is a national asset. I The committee has produced a timely report because totally agree with him. Why then is so much attention the House will recognise that the final report on now being given to the possibility of various mergers Digital Britain will be produced soon and it which will and contestable funding as ways of saving PSB when, take account of all these representations. The House from this report, there is little evidence that PSB is will readily appreciate, however, that I am somewhat experiencing any real financial problems? inhibited by the fact that that is only nine or 10 days It has been suggested that the reason why Channel 4 away, and it ill behoves me to pre-empt its conclusions. does not believe that it will continue without additional I hope that I will be forgiven if I cannot be as definitive public support, in response to some of the proposals as I would 405 Public Service Broadcasting[LORDS] Public Service Broadcasting 406

[LORD DAVIES OF OLDHAM] The BBC is important as a global force producing ordinarily like to be. The advantage of the report wide-ranging programmes of quality and innovating being presented at this time is that it helps the successfully in new forms in today’s multimedia, Government’s thinking on these critical issues, and I multiplatform age. We all recognise that public sector am grateful to the noble Lord and his committee for broadcasting gives a unique advantage to this country. clarifying some of those that need to be addressed. It is important that the BBC has strong competition from the commercially funded public sector broadcasters: I emphasise that I have some difficulty in reconciling ITV and Channels 4 and Five, which, first, help to the anxieties of the committee, which are well founded keep the BBC on its toes and, secondly, ensure that we in certain areas of television production. We are all get the most innovative and creative possibilities for aware of the problems of advertising revenue in view our television. of the competing areas in which advertising can be presented to television. We are all aware of the fact ITV’s regional news provision provides audiences that ITV and Channel 4 are under stress. The noble with a different perspective from the BBC and provides Lord, Lord Fowler, with his considerable experience in a balanced view reflecting communities across the an additional area of news—the regional newspapers— country. As the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, said in his brought that within the framework of this discussion. opening remarks, it is important that we recognise that with regional newspapers under pressure, the regional I appreciate that the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, dimension of news is of considerable importance. has had to leave before this response, but he, too, emphasised the difficulties facing independent television The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, and the right in particular. I am having a little difficulty in accepting reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester emphasised the analysis of the noble Baroness, Lady Rawlings, the importance of children’s programmes. There was that all is fine in the garden, that there are not too scarcely a mention of Channel Five in the debate, but many problems around and that a little slicing off the we should pay due regard to the “Milkshake” brand BBC budget will produce an easy answer to all that. on Channel Five, which provides high-quality organised First slicing the BBC budget is not a concept that I preschool programming for children. Although I recognise, having listened to and participated in debates appreciate that there is concern about the quality of on committee reports in the past about the role of provision for over-10s—I think that the noble Baroness the BBC. I was greatly involved in the debate on the defined it in those terms—we should appreciate charter, the difficulties in that institution and the programming of high quality. necessary resources and, as testified in the debate There is no doubt that children’s programming today, how well those resources are devoted to ensuring must be an important dimension of public sector that the BBC is the foremost broadcaster in the world broadcasting, but a degree of competition ensures with a substantial role in exports, which also enjoy plurality of voices and competition for quality which, such a huge reputation. in turn, drives down some costs. The challenge for the I listened carefully to what my noble friend Lord Government is to examine how we could sustain public Puttnam said about the history of the BBC and its sector broadcasting provision, including the BBC, in somewhat jealous guarding of its resources. He is right the new multichannel digital age with all its challenges. that that should be subject to scrutiny. It may be The Digital Britain interim report, which we published timely that the BBC has to be a little more open to its a few months ago on 29 January, set out our early potential rivals. In all fairness, he will have recognised thinking on these matters and outlined the key priorities areas in which the BBC is already beginning to think that we think need to be addressed. Our starting point of partnership with independent television with regard was certainly that a strong, fully funded and efficient to news provision. All is not closed on that front, nor BBC acts as an enabler for the rest of the sector. Most let me say are the Government closed on the necessity of the fruitful ideas that have emerged from the of some further stimulus towards such co-operation. committee’s useful report and that have been presented The committee is right to identify that there may not during this evening’s debate, build on the BBC as the be a long-term crisis in British television, but there are cornerstone. short-term anxieties given the real difficulties at this However, we also need strong alternatives to the time. The full report, for which we have less than a BBC. My noble friend Lord Macdonald emphasised fortnight to wait, will address all those issues. that in relation to the provision of television in the I can dispose of one or two issues. The noble Lord, nations. He will appreciate that aspects of the relationship Lord Clement-Jones, was fair but challenging in almost between ITV and the channel 3 licensees as a whole equal measure. He is always fertile with fresh ideas or, are essentially regulated by Ofcom and the OFT. In if not, indicating that he sees little difficulty in ideas 10 days’ time, we will set out in Digital Britain our that have been rejected. I fear that product placement views about how we see that relationship developing, fits into the latter category. The Government gave but I reassure my noble friend that his strong voice on detailed consideration to all the responses on the issue, the necessity of ensuring that this dimension of public but we have not been persuaded that there are any sector broadcasting is given due attention will be convincing arguments in favour of allowing product testified in that report. I know that noble Lords will placement. Although, as the noble Lord rightly enjoined take the earliest possible opportunity of pressing the the Government to do, we will address ourselves to the issues further. issue of necessary funding, we do not think that that is Underpinning the initial position is the Government’s an avenue that can be usefully pursued, and we will belief that public sector broadcasting requires plural not be emphasising that dimension. provision. Where there are anxieties about public sector 407 Public Service Broadcasting[4 JUNE 2009] Public Service Broadcasting 408 broadcasting outside the BBC, we need to address Lady Rawlings, will join me—that independent television them. That is why I am grateful that this debate gives is a tremendously important dimension of our us the chance to do so. The committee argued that to broadcasting world. ITV1 remains the UK’s largest deviate from the current, accepted definition of public commercial channel. In 2008, it achieved an audience service broadcasting would be counterproductive, and share of 17.2 per cent, which is more than twice the we agree. It is the cornerstone of this debate. There are share of its nearest commercial rival, Channel 4. It enough challenges with regard to the points that have should be therefore recognised for its significance. been made in the committee’s report and in this debate Across peak viewing hours, ITV1 remains the UK’s without us wrangling over definition. We believe that most popular channel with a share of 23.9 per cent, the concept and framework that we set out in the which is slightly ahead of BBC1 with 23.4 per cent. We Communications Act 2003 and the characteristics and should recognise how much independent television public purposes put forward by Ofcom provide the and ITV1 are appreciated by the nation. Of course, it proper starting point for examining public service has held its share of the television advertising market content, and we are grateful to the committee for over a long period, despite the fact, as we all appreciate, confirming that that is how it sees things. that there are now competitors outside linear television which help to create the present difficulties. In response to calls for plurality of public service broadcasting beyond the BBC, let me restate that we ITV’s commitment to public service content has have repeatedly given our firm commitment to sustaining not only contributed to sustaining a wide range of public service content provision including and beyond voices and perspectives, but it has also helped to the BBC, which is why we address the issues that the improve the standards of the UK media landscape. I committee identified. It will be seen from the Government’s believe that independent television not only has played response that we seek to respond to them positively. I a significant role in the recent past, but that that role am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Flather, for needs to be sustained. However, content markets are introducing the issue of diversity. Plurality of sources changing significantly with the development of alternative does not meet the requirement if we do not have viewing patterns, which is why the committee’s report plurality of voices and do not give due regard to talked in terms of short-term crisis and why I am minority cultures. I am grateful for her contribution pleased to report both the committee’s constructive on this matter, just as I am grateful to my noble friend response to some of these areas and that of other Lord Macdonald for expressing a similar viewpoint noble Lords. The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, with regard to the nations of the United Kingdom and was concerned to emphasise partnership and the how they need to be considered as we conclude our Government certainly think that that needs to be thinking. exploited and developed. Following Ofcom’s public sector broadcasting review, I also accept that the regulatory framework that the Government have been looking at a number of applies to ITV may need to change further to reflect options, including the feasibility of contestable funding, the changes in the media landscape. My noble friend structural changes, new networks or commissions or Lord Macdonald made that point with great force. I making no further intervention in this market at all. I cannot comment in detail without pre-empting the am glad that the committee did not think that the last more general position to emerge shortly. But that was an option for the Government, because we will be point is very well taken. Of course, I want to emphasise positive in the final Digital Britain report, which is that the Government are considering a new entity imminent. The Government, like the committee, welcomes which builds on Channel 4’s assets from purely public the BBC’s commitment to commissioning more network ones to perhaps public-private partnerships to achieve programming from the nations. The timetable and the our objective of a large-scale, sustainable and flexible commitment are a matter for the BBC, and we should provider of high-quality public service content. support the BBC’s endeavours to reach its targets as I know that that is too general an expression to quickly as it can. satisfy my noble friend Lord Lipsey who would want Particular reference was made to Channel 4, not me to be more precise about the commitment to least by my noble friend Lord Lipsey. We noted that Channel 4. I can express only this general commitment, Ofcom, in its final PSB statement published in January, but he knows that that presages a considerable degree recognised that production from and portrayal of of detail in the report, which we all await with, I have each nation and region of the UK on UK networks no doubt, considerable impatience. However, I have was a concern for many, which is why Ofcom decided greater patience than many because it enables me on to increase Channel 4’s out-of-London production this occasion to postpone conclusions on some of the quotas to 35 per cent in spend and volume. Within more difficult issues. My noble friend Lord Carter will that they also embedded a quota for 3 per cent for address these issues before the House in the near production from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. future. But that is a demand on Channel 4. My noble friend In conclusion, changes are required in the commercial Lord Lipsey was eager to identify that Channel 4 also broadcasting sector if we are to secure the plurality of needs some support, which is why I emphasise that in provision that both policymakers and audiences want. 10 days’ time we will identify progress on these matters. Our aim is to build on the strengths and traditions I cannot adopt the somewhat complacent position that will redefine and meet the very new and challenging of the Opposition Front Bench with regard to the digital age. Government intervention in the marketplace challenge facing ITV in terms of resources. But I want is difficult to determine and I am grateful to the Select to emphasise—I am sure that the noble Baroness, Committee for recognising the difficulties in its report 409 Public Service Broadcasting[LORDS] Public Service Broadcasting 410

[LORD DAVIES OF OLDHAM] he came out against any top-slicing of the licence fee. and recommending that we tread with delicacy and In an ideal world I might even agree; but we are not in care. There is no easy, overriding and simple solution an ideal world, we are in a crisis, and we will not be for this area. We need to think carefully before we thanked if we do not examine options such as contestable tread at all, and of course, at the heart of this lies the funding. My noble friend Lady Rawlings spoke well crucial question of affordability. about the position of regional news and I agree with The Digital Britain agenda is ambitious and what she said, but she did rather underplay the critical encompasses public service broadcasting along with financial position of commercial broadcasters in this the wider digital and creative industries. The report is country. imminent and I know that the House is looking forward The noble Lord, Lord Davies, spoke with his usual to it as much as I am. For the moment, I can only charm about the problems being encountered by express gratitude to the committee, which has advanced broadcasters. I was encouraged by his aside about the debate considerably with this report. regional newspapers, but I continue to disagree with the Government’s position as set out in their paper 6.41 pm that everything in this area should be decided between the BBC and the Government, and that there should Lord Fowler: My Lords, this has been a good debate, be no effective role for Parliament. I will not repeat my and coming before the Government’s White Paper, it is arguments on that because he has heard them before. also well timed. I thank everyone for their contributions. He nods his head in assent, but I say to him that in the The noble Lord, Lord Macdonald of Tradeston, end, we will win. emphasised the need to make BBC Worldwide a national champion, and I agree with what he said about STV Lastly, and in many ways most importantly, I refer and UTV. The noble Baroness, Lady Flather, had to the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam. He cautionary words for the BBC which it would do well made a fundamental point when he said that it seems to heed. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of that the BBC is concerned only with its own future. Manchester raised the issue of the new MediaCityUK Indeed the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, pointed out that in Salford, where we may be on the verge of missing a while it is a world-class organisation, by golly it is also great opportunity, particularly in training. He also a world-class lobbyist. I agree with the noble Lord, underlined the state of broadcasting, and the Minister Lord Puttnam, that all public service broadcasting is would do well to note what he has had to say. in a crisis today and that the BBC must play a leading part in getting us out of it. In other words, the BBC My noble friend Lord Inglewood underlined the must look outwards. Unless it does so I do not think it importance of the long-term impact of the digital will be truly forgiven. revolution. The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, emphasised the need for an alternative regional news service to It has been a good debate. We now wait for the that of BBC programming. The noble Lord, Lord Government’s final report. I think I detected in the Lipsey, talked about the importance of Channel 4 and Minister’s remarks that he promised us a debate on had some words to say about BBC Three, which no that final report. Being a wise man, he does not nod or doubt are now being pored over in BBC House. make any gesture of any kind on that point. In all seriousness, I hope that we will have a debate upon it. I thank the three Front-Benchers. As always, I agree With those words, I commend the Motion. with part of what each of them said and disagree with other parts. The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, Motion agreed. emphasised the need for a plurality of public service broadcasting and I certainly agree with him. However, House adjourned at 6.45 pm. WS 13 Written Statements[4 JUNE 2009] Written Statements WS 14

next item on the agenda is political agreement on a Written Statements proposal which will extend social security rights to third country nationals, including those who have Thursday 4 June 2009 never worked. The UK is not taking part in this proposal. Climate Change: Greenhouse Gases The council will also seek adoption of council Statement conclusions on flexicurity in time of crisis. Flexicurity policies are seen as increasingly important as part of the strategy to help labour markets in the current The Minister of State, Department of Energy and downturn. This will be followed by council conclusions Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food on social services as a tool for active inclusion. The and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): My measures addressed are largely already in train and right honourable friend the Secretary of State for there are no direct implications for the UK. There will Environment Food and Rural Affairs (Hilary Benn) also be council conclusions on active and dignified has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. ageing. Active ageing is a Czech presidency theme, On Friday 5 June I am launching a Defra/DECC and a necessary policy in light of the demographic consultation on government guidance on how time bomb. Finally there will be council conclusions organisations should measure and report on their on inclusion of Roma. These have been drafted in the corporate greenhouse gas emissions. light of the first meeting of the integrated European Copies of the consultation document, guidance platform for Roma inclusion in April 2009 which and a regulatory impact assessment will be placed in discussed a set of common basic principles on Roma the Libraries of the House. The consultation document inclusion. The UK Government welcome all the sets out the rationale for government intervention, conclusions. how the guidance was developed and seeks views on it The council will also receive presidency reports on and the impact assessment. The consultation will close progress in negotiations on three draft directives: pregnant on 7 August 2009. Stakeholders will continue to be workers; anti-discrimination; and equal treatment between involved throughout the consultation period. men and women engaged in a self employed capacity. The consultation package will also be available on Under any other business, there will be information the Defra website at www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/ from the Commission on a report by the high level consult/greenhouse-gas/index.htm. group on disability presenting an update of the progress Responses to this consultation will be reviewed and made by each MS towards ratification and implementation final guidance published by 1 October 2009 to comply of the UN Convention. In addition, the Commission with the requirement of Section 83 of the Climate will report on impact of free movement of workers in Change Act 2008. the context of EU enlargement. There will also be information from the Polish delegation giving details of an informal ministerial working group meeting EU: Employment, Social Policy, Health which I attended in Radziejowice, Poland on 18 and and Consumer Affairs Council 19 May 2009. This meeting discussed how best to face Statement the economic crisis. There will also be information on conferences held under Czech presidency. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of Luton): My honourable friend the Parliamentary Under- EU: Telecoms Council Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Jonathan Statement Shaw) has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for The Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Communications, Technology and Broadcasting (Lord Affairs Council will be held on 8 June 2009 in Carter of Barnes): The following Statement provides Luxembourg. I will represent the UK. the agenda items for which BERR has responsibility The first and main item of the agenda will be at the forthcoming Transport, Telecommunications preparation of the June European Council. This will and Energy Council (Telecoms Council) in Luxembourg include a policy debate on the employment implications on 11 June 2009. Andy Lebrecht (Deputy Permanent of the economic crisis, messages from the 7 May Representative in Brussels) will represent the United employment summit and a Commission communication Kingdom. for the June European Council. The communication The only substantive item on the agenda is an to be published the week before EPSCO will propose exchange of views regarding European network and an update of EU actions and priorities on the impact information security policy. To guide the exchange of of the global downturn on employment. views, the Czech presidency has issued a paper, ahead The next item will be political agreement on of the council which includes asking the Ministers employment guidelines. A general approach on the three questions, the first is what the medium to long-term employment guidelines under the Lisbon strategy was aims of a strengthened network and information security agreed at the March 2009 EPSCO. Following a European policy at EU level while the second and third relate to Parliament opinion, these will be for political agreement the future of the European Network and Information ready for formal adoption at a future council. The Security Agency (ENISA). WS 15 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 16

This work has various strands, including the recently Home Office: Annual Report published Commission’s recent communication on critical Statement information infrastructure protection (CIIP). I recently placed a Explanatory Memorandum (EM 8375/09) The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home with both Houses on this communication. This Office (Lord West of Spithead): My right honourable communication was also recently discussed at a ministerial friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department conference on CIIP in Tallinn in April, which proposed (Jacqui Smith) has made the following Written Ministerial that the content of the communication and the conclusions Statement. of the conference should be discussed at the next TTE We will publish the Home Office’s 2009 departmental Council. report on 5 June. Copies will be available in the Vote Office and on the Home Office website. The report This is unlikely to be a controversial agenda item. describes the work of the Home Office during 2008-09, Regarding the UK’s interventions, we will welcome in particular as reflected in its strategic objectives. the opportunity to debate this essential issue, and will suggest that the Community needs to be clear on what it wants to achieve in network and information security Immigration: Monitor for Entry Clearance policy terms. We will be seeking to establish principles Refusals that lead to a policy that can deliver measurable Statement benefit and add to, rather than subtract from, the ICT sector’s ability to drive growth and recovery. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord West of Spithead): My right honourable Regarding ENISA, we will say that it is to early in friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department the debate to say whether we still need to retain the (Jacqui Smith) has made the following Written Ministerial agency in the long term. First, we need to establish the Statement. policy priorities and then assess the extent to which I have today placed in the Library a copy of the they can be achieved through an agency and whether report by Mrs Linda Costelloe Baker, the independent this represents value for money. monitor for entry clearance refusals with limited rights of appeal, covering the period 1 April to 30 September Finally on this agenda item, overall, the UK is 2008. A copy is also being made available on the generally supportive of the projected work plan set UKBA website at www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/independent out in the Commission communication on CIIP and monitor/imparliamentaryreports together with UK Border believes that the closer collaboration with industry Agency’s response to the independent monitor’s and the increased drive to achieve preparedness so all recommendations. member states are capable and prepared to respond to I am most grateful to Mrs Costelloe Baker for this an emergency is extremely good news. This will be report based on the 904 sample cases which she has followed by two items under any other business which reviewed for the period 1 April to 30 September 2008, are on Internet of Things—An Action Plan for Europe and the 578 cases reviewed during her monitoring and Information from the Commission and Ministerial visits to visa issuing posts during the period April to Conference—Safer Internet for Children (Prague, 20 April September 2008. 2009)—Information from the Presidency. In the covering letter to this her final report, The former item will see the Commission present a Mrs Costelloe Baker notes that the Visa Services short paper entitled Internet of Things - An Action Directorate recognises the need to “spend the next plan for Europe - Information from the Commission. year concentrating on the basics … and paying attention This paper lays out the challenges that this subject to feedback”. This will be UKBA’s main focus for brings if Europe is to realise its ambitions in this 2009-10. Mrs Costelloe Baker describes the overseas space. The paper also mentions that the Commission visa operation as “the most constructive organisation” will publish a communication on the subject in the she has ever worked alongside, with “enthusiastic, coming weeks. This will also present an opportunity energetic staff whose commitment to doing a good job for presidency and Commission to report on the recent means that they have sought, welcomed and thrived conference in Prague on the future of the internet, at on straight talking and external scrutiny”. which among other issues, the Internet of Things was Mrs Costelloe Baker makes a number of constructive discussed. recommendations as to how the UK Border Agency can continue to improve. Key themes to pursue are: The second item will be a readout by the presidency the accuracy of data capture; regarding its conference on Safer Internet for Children the attention to evidence in the decision-making that took place recently in Prague. The end result of process; the conference was the adoption of the Prague declaration promotion of consistency in the application of the by all member states entitled New European Approach new Immigration Rules relating to deception for Safer Internet and Children, the aim of which is to (paragraphs 3207 A and B); see enhanced co-operation by all stakeholders across the appearance and quality of refusal notices; Europe, which will lead to safer use of the internet by children. The Department for Children, Schools and complaint and correspondence handling procedures; Families led on this conference. global implementation of IM recommendations; and There is unlikely to be a debate on these two issues the development of a constructive working relationship and therefore I do not plan to intervene. with the chief inspector of the UK Border Agency. WS 17 Written Statements[4 JUNE 2009] Written Statements WS 18

The UK Border Agency welcomes these comments I wish to record our thanks to Mrs Costelloe Baker and is keen to use these recommendations to drive up for the work and effort she has put into producing this the quality of its service to customers while maintaining her sixth and final report as independent monitor for a high level of immigration control. entry clearance refusals with limited rights of appeal.

WA 101 Written Answers[4 JUNE 2009] Written Answers WA 102 Written Answers Asked by Lord Moynihan To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether local Thursday 4 June 2009 authorities must register the mobile phone numbers of parents ordinarily resident in England on the ContactPoint database, rather than home or business Agriculture: Disease Testing phone numbers. [HL3820] Question Asked by Lord Taylor of Holbeach Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: Information held on ContactPoint has been clearly set out and restricted in To ask Her Majesty’s Government why the fees Section 12 of the Children Act 2004. Local authorities for testing disinfectants for approval for use for foot must supply to ContactPoint the contact details they and mouth diseases and swine vesicular disease are hold for parents. This could include a mobile telephone increased from £1,490 to £1,865 by the Diseases of number, a landline number which is used for domestic Animals (Approved Disinfectants) (Fees) (England) or business purposes or any combination of these. Order 2009 (SI 2009/839). [HL3884] Asked by Lord Moynihan The Minister of State, Department of Energy and To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food intend to advise parents on the process of “shielding” and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): The on the Contact Point database. [HL3821] Veterinary Laboratories Agency (VLA) delivers the administration of disinfectants testing under the approved disinfectants regime for Defra. The various tests are Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: The department and undertaken by the VLA and the Institute of Animal local authorities are already making information about Health and charges for them are based on full cost ContactPoint available to children, young people and recovery. Each year, these laboratories have to estimate their parents/carers using a range of methods, such the likely requirement for tests and set their charges as direct mailing to households, leaflet distribution, accordingly. This process was undertaken for the tests publications on websites and through the media. for foot-and-mouth disease and swine vesicular disease. Activity has been taking place across England for some time and will increase over the coming months. A range of materials are widely available, including Children: ContactPoint leaflets suitable for young people. The materials include Questions information about shielding, which is an additional security measure appropriate for a small proportion of Asked by Lord Moynihan children’s records. Young people, parents or carers are To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the advised to contact their local authority if they have current projected cost and date of implementation reason to believe their own or their child’s record of the ContactPoint database. [HL3819] should be shielded on ContactPoint. More detailed information is available on the Department for Children, Schools and Families website. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Children, Schools and Families (Baroness Asked by Lord Moynihan Morgan of Drefelin): The current projected cost for development and set-up of ContactPoint is £224 million, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the most of which is expected to be incurred by the end of training programmes and format for the accreditation the financial year 2009-10. for security purposes required by professionals who will work with the children and young people to be ContactPoint moved into its first phase of delivery registered on the ContactPoint database. [HL3824] in January 2009 when 19 early adopter organisations, comprising 17 local authorities in the North West of England and two national voluntary sector partners— Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: In order for professionals Barnardo’s and KIDS—began to train their ContactPoint who work with children and young people to become management teams. In parallel, all local authorities authorised users of ContactPoint they must: started to shield a small proportion of records on have an enhanced Criminal Records Bureau check, ContactPoint. renewed every three years; Early adopter organisations have now started to attend and successfully complete mandatory training train a limited and controlled group of practitioners on the use of ContactPoint, which includes security to use ContactPoint. These practitioners, who must all responsibilities, the importance of good security go through stringent security checks and training before practice, the Data Protection Act and Human Rights accessing the system, are being carefully monitored in Act; order to evaluate their experience of using the system. From June to August 2009, ContactPoint management be provided with the ContactPoint Security Operating teams in the remaining local authorities and national Procedures; and partner organisations will be trained. This will enable sign an end user agreement form which sets out the them to make local preparations for wider deployment responsibilities and commitments that an authorised to users. user of ContactPoint agrees. WA 103 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 104

ContactPoint users will also need to be subject to helmet, and the words that appear with the final monitoring by the Independent Safeguarding Authority score “Nice Work! That’ll teach ’em for not wearing (ISA) when it is introduced. a cycle helmet”, are appropriate; and whether they will withdraw that page. [HL3918] Civil Service: Performance Pay Question The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Lord Adonis): The Department for Transport is Asked by Lord Newby committed to reducing the number of children killed or seriously injured while cycling. As part of a broader To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the communication strategy to educate children about Written Answer by Lord Hunt of Kings Heath on road safety, an online game was designed to encourage 20 April (WA318) concerning the amount of funding 6 to 11-year-olds to wear cycle helmets, which can help for Senior Civil Servants’ performance-related pay, reduce head injuries. what were the figures requested. [HL3636] After due consideration, the department removed the game from the website on 21 May 2009, as we The Minister of State, Department of Energy and agreed that it was not appropriate. Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): Funding for Senior Civil Servants’ performance-related pay is Employment: Discrimination calculated as a percentage of the total pay bill. The Question attached table summarises the paybill figures for each year since 2005 and the percentage of the paybill that Asked by Lord Laird was applied as performance-related pay, in line with SCS pay policy set by the Cabinet Office, following To ask Her Majesty’s Government in light of the recommendations by the Senior Salaries Review Body. report entitled Discrimination in Recruitment: Evidence from a Field Experiment, carried out by the Economic Year 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 and Social Research Institute of the Republic of Ireland, which demonstrated discrimination against SCS £14,177,765 £18,135,458 £19,208,849 £17,199,520 £18,570,568 Paybill job applicants in the Republic of Ireland with non-Irish Performance 5.0% 6.5% 7.6% 8.6% 8.6% names, whether they will add that country to those Pay Pot it monitors for human rights abuses. [HL3811]

Criminal Records Bureau The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): The Government have Question no plans to add Ireland to the countries it monitors Asked by Lord Moynihan for human rights abuses. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, in advance of the ContactPoint database being activated, professionals who work with children will have Energy: Wind Generation undergone Criminal Records Bureau checks; when Question that was last verified; and by whom. [HL3823] Asked by Lord Reay The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what the Department for Children, Schools and Families (Baroness additional financial support set out in the Budget Morgan of Drefelin): All professionals who work with for offshore wind farms will add to electricity children and young people who need access to consumers’ bills. [HL3405] ContactPoint are required, as a condition of access, to be subjected to an enhanced Criminal Records Bureau The Minister of State, Department of Energy and check prior to being granted access to ContactPoint. Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food The enhanced Criminal Records Bureau checks and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): If a will be carried out by the practitioner’s employer and higher level of support as set out in the Budget for be verified as part of the ContactPoint access application offshore wind under the renewables obligation were to process. go ahead, it would have no cost in the short term before the projects start generating electricity. It will Cycling: Safety have an impact on electricity bills in the longer term. Question The final cost would depend on how many projects proceed and meet the criteria and the effect that this Asked by Lord Greaves has on the electricity market. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Our expectation is that this proposal could be worth they have made of whether the game on the Cycling some £2 billion to £3 billion of additional support Safety page on the Tales of the Road website (http:// over the twenty years’ lifetime of the projects. Officials talesoftheroad. direct.gov.uk/cycling-safety.php),which are currently undertaking work to assess the longer-term involves using the cursor to hit children over the impact of renewables policy measures on consumer head with a mallet if they are not wearing a cycle energy bills, as part of the renewable energy strategy. WA 105 Written Answers[4 JUNE 2009] Written Answers WA 106

Equal Pay at different grades within undertakings with sufficient Question detail to identify the existence of prima facie direct or indirect sex discrimination in pay within those Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill undertakings. [HL3849] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they consider that the publication by an employer of The Lord President of the Council (Baroness Royall information indicating the average pay of women of Blaisdon): The Government’s aim is for employers and men respectively in the employer’s undertaking regularly to publish information about what they pay would be sufficient in itself to enable the identification their male and female employees on a voluntary basis. of any prima facie direct or indirect sex discrimination The Equality and Human Rights Commission is bringing within the undertakings and the means of eliminating employers and unions together to recommend how any such discrimination. [HL3852] gender pay reporting should operate in practice and in particular the measures that employers should be encouraged to report on. If sufficient progress has not The Lord President of the Council (Baroness Royall been made by 2013 in the voluntary reporting, we will of Blaisdon): No: we consider it very unlikely that a prepare regulations to require reporting of specified single figure relating to gender pay over the whole of a information. It is too early to say what any regulations large undertaking would in itself be sufficient evidence which may be made under clause 73 will prescribe. to found an equal pay or sex discrimination claim in any individual case. What it would do is reveal the Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill existence of any pay gap, and enable both employers To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the and employees to raise questions as to its causes—and justification for excluding from the scope of clause 73 as a result take steps to remedy it. of the Equality Bill employers who have fewer than 250 employees. [HL3850] Equality and Human Rights Commission Question Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: We want to maximise the number of employees whose employers publish Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill gender-based information about their pay, while avoiding the imposition of excessive burdens on business. We To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the are therefore proposing coverage of larger employers Written Answer by the Lord President (Baroness who between them employ around 50 per cent of the Royall of Blaisdon) on 24 April (WA 419), whether workforce outside the public sector, and who should the selection process for appointing the chair and be best able to produce and publish information on other members of the Equality and Human Rights gender pay. Small and medium-sized employers with Commission applies to their reappointment. fewer than 250 employees are of course free to publish [HL3334] gender pay information, and we would strongly encourage them to do so. The Lord President of the Council (Baroness Royall Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill of Blaisdon): The process for reappointing a chair and other board members of the Equality and Human To ask Her Majesty’s Government having regard Rights Commission differs from the process of making to the obligations imposed upon employers under new appointments as there is no requirement to advertise the Equal Pay Act 1970 as amended to secure equal a post should a decision be taken to reappoint a pay for women and men without sex discrimination, current member. Reappointments are governed by what is the justification for deferring the exercise of time and performance criteria set out by the Office of the power to make regulations under clause 73 of the Commissioner for Public Appointments. There is the Equality Bill until 2013. [HL3851] no guarantee of any reappointment being favourably considered. To be considered for reappointment members Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: All employers are bound must have performed satisfactorily during their current by the Equal Pay Act 1970, and will continue to be term. The Government Equalities Office has ensured bound by their successor provisions in the Equality there is an appropriate performance assessment process Bill. Not all differences in pay between women and in place to provide the necessary evidence for considering men are as a result of failure to comply with the Equal any reappointments. The Minister for Women and Pay Act. The voluntary disclosure regime which is Equality has the final decision on reappointments proposed, supported by the power in Clause 73 is based on performance assessments. aimed at giving people the ability address the causes of any gender pay gap in their organisations whatever Equality Bill they might be. Questions Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the power proposed in clause 73 of the Equality Bill To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they and regulations made thereunder would have to be intend the regulations to be made under clause 73 interpreted and applied so as to comply with the of the Equality Bill to require employers to publish obligations imposed by European Union equal pay information sufficient to identify gender pay gaps legislation. [HL3902] WA 107 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 108

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: Clause 73 is not part Total No of of the UK’s scheme for implementing Article 141 of staff who did the Treaty of Rome or the Recast Directive (Council Executive Administration not transfer Directive 2006154/EC), neither of which contains SCS Grade 7 Officer Officer to Fera obligations to require this kind of disclosure, so no PHD/ 1113 question requiring such an interpretation to be made PHSI should arise. PVS 1 2 3 Total 2 1 1 3 7

EU: Legislation All staff in the Central Science Laboratory transferred Question to the new agency. Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Government Departments: Bottled Water Written Answer by Lord Malloch-Brown on 18 May Question (WA 253), (a) what would be the likely cost of Asked by Baroness Warsi research into the proportion of United Kingdom legislation originating in the European Union; and To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much (b) what assessment they have made of the figure of the Department for International Development spent 75 per cent as the proportion quoted by some on bottled water in each of the past five years. political parties and organisations and by the [HL3462] Independent on 19 May (page 27). [HL3903] Lord Tunnicliffe: Since January 2008 the Department The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth for International Development (DfID) has not purchased Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): The Government have bottled mineral water as a matter of course, but instead not assessed the likely cost of research into this issue. uses bottled filtered mains water that is prepared on The Government believe that any expenditure would site. be disproportionate given the limited purpose such figures would serve. The Government do not believe that the figure of Government Departments: Relocation 75 per cent is accurate. A House of Commons Library Question analysis of the effects of EU legislation on British law Asked by Lord Greaves between 1998 and 2005 gave a figure of just 9.1 per cent. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether an official announcement has been made on any scheme for the location of Government departments on a Food and Environment Research Agency new site adjacent to Manchester Piccadilly station Question on the site of the Mayfield station. [HL3423] Asked by Lord Taylor of Holbeach The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Department for Communities and Local Government Written Statement by the Secretary of State for (Baroness Andrews): On 1 May my right honourable Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, Hilary Benn, friend the Minister for the North West announced a on 23 March (Official Report, House of Commons, feasibility study into plans for a civil service campus 1–2WS), how many of the staff of the component on public land near Piccadilly Station in Manchester. parts of the new Food and Environment Research Agency have not transferred and what are their grades. [HL3887] Human Rights Question The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Asked by Lord Laird Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): The To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the attached table summarises the Defra staff from the Written Answer by Lord Malloch-Brown on 20 April Plant Health Division/ Plant Health and Seeds (WA 348), why they do not maintain a list of the Inspectorate (PHD/PHSI), Plant Variety Rights Office names and types of cases where the United Kingdom and Seeds Division (PVS) and the Government has requested a referral to the European Court of Decontamination Service (GDS), who did not transfer Human Rights Grand Chamber; and what would to FERA on 1 April 2009. be the cost of maintaining such details. [HL3679]

Total No of staff who did The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Executive Administration not transfer Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): It is not the general SCS Grade 7 Officer Officer to Fera practice of the Government routinely to keep statistical GDS 1 1 information in relation to cases before the European Court of Human Rights, including cases before the WA 109 Written Answers[4 JUNE 2009] Written Answers WA 110

Grand Chamber. As there are no plans to maintain Commission Regulation (EC) No 206/2009 of 5 March such statistics, no assessment has been made of possible 2009 on the introduction into the Community of costs. personal consignments of products of animal origin, repealing Regulation (EC) No 745/2004 and amending Regulation (EC) No 136/2004. Organophosphates There is no official forecast of the quantity of Question personal imports of products of animal origin as a Asked by The Countess of Mar consequence of the revised European Union (EU) personal imports rules from 1 May. There is no change To ask Her Majesty’s Government when the to the ban on personal imports of meat and dairy interdepartmental committee on organophosphates, products (the products which constitute the main animal also known as the Carden Committee, last met; health risk) from most countries outside the EU. what subjects were discussed; whether their However, increases in the permitted amounts of deliberations were minuted and published; and which other products of animal origin posing little or no risk members attended. [HL3873] to animal health (such as fish/fishery products and honey) will more likely result in an increase in the The Minister of State, Department of Energy and quantity of these products being brought into the Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food United Kingdom. This will be particularly evident in and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): The respect of the increase in the amount permitted for Official Group on Organophosphates (sometimes referred fish and fishery products from 1 kg under the previous to as the Carden Committee) last met on 26 June 2007. rules to a 20kg combined total. Personal imports of The meeting discussed the government-sponsored research non-meat and dairy products from certain countries programme on organophosphates and agreed that all are also now permitted (although restricted) when of the research should be referred to the Committee they were not permitted under the previous rules. on Toxicity (COT) of Chemicals in Food, Consumer The quantity of personal imports being brought Products and the Environment. The John Harvey into the UK is of course dependent on other issues report, aircraft cabin-air contamination, the Australian too, such as a reduction or increase in the number of review of diazinon were also discussed. passengers entering the UK from outside the EU. The Chief Veterinary Officer and other officials from the Veterinary Medicines Directorate, Scottish Government Rural Directorate, the Department of Rats Health, the Health and Safety Executive, the Food Questions Standards Agency, the Ministry of Defence and the Asked by Lord Jones of Cheltenham Office for Science and Innovation attended the meeting. Apologies were received from the Welsh Assembly To ask Her Majesty’s Government what estimate Government, Department for Agriculture and Rural they have made of the number of rats in the United Development Northern Ireland, the Pesticide Safety Kingdom in each year for which figures are available Directorate, the Medicines and Healthcare products since 2001. [HL3801] Regulatory Agency, the Scottish Government Health To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Directorate, the Health Protection Agency and the they have made of reports that rats have developed Cabinet Office. an immunity to standard poisons; and what plans The minutes of these meetings are not published. they have to counter any increase in the rat population. [HL3802] Products of Animal Origin The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Question Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food Asked by Lord Taylor of Holbeach and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): The Government do not hold data on the size of the UK To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their rat population. However, the latest report on rodent forecast of the quantity of personal imports of presence in domestic properties as revealed by the products of animal origin that will follow the English House Condition Survey data for 2002-03 and introduction of the new paragraph (7) in regulation 2003-04 is available on Defra’s website. Key findings 4 of the Products of Animal Origin (Third Country are that the occurrences of rats inside and outside Imports) (England) Regulations 2006 by the Products properties in these years are not significantly different of Animal Origin (Third Country Imports) (England) from those observed in 2001. (Amendment) Regulations 2009 (SI 2009/875). The former Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and [HL3885] Food funded an assessment of resistance to rodenticides in 1998. This was published in: Kerins, G.M.; Dennis, N.; The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Atterby, H.; Gill, J.E. & MacNicoll A.D. (2001) Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food Distribution of resistance to anticoagulant rodenticides and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): The in the Norway rat (Rattus norvegicus Berk.) in England recent amendment to the Products of Animal Origin 1995-98. In: Advances in Vertebrate Pest Management (Third Country Imports) (England) Regulations 2006 Volume II (Eds. H-J Pelz, D.P Cowan & C.J. Feare) simply updates existing paragraphs to reflect the revised pages 149-159, Filander Verlag, Furth. WA 111 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 112

The Health and Safety Executive is aware from charities such as Volunteer Reading Help, which is literature that rats may be becoming increasingly resistant supported by a government grant of £150,000 in this to anticoagulant rodenticides. Although it is aware of year. In 2008-09 some 4,500 children received one-to-one the research mentioned above, it is not aware of any support from VRH-trained volunteers typically in new studies and has not itself commissioned any two half-hour sessions twice a week throughout the recent work of this nature. The department is currently school year. considering if it is possible to allow more effective rodenticide to be deployed. Under the Prevention of Damage by Pests Act 1949, local authorities have a duty to take such steps, as may be necessary, to secure, so far as is practicable, that St Helena: Airport their districts are kept free from rats and mice. Questions Asked by Lord Jones of Cheltenham Schools: Teachers To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Questions have received communications from individuals or Asked by Baroness Walmsley companies expressing interest in financing the proposed airport in St Helena; and, if so, whether any further To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment meetings are planned. [HL3548] they have made of the role of volunteers in providing one-to-one reading support in primary schools. [HL3777] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether only Lord Tunnicliffe: The Parliamentary Under-Secretary trained teachers are used to provide intensive one- of State, Mike Foster, met with representatives of one to-one literacy support in primary schools; and company following receipt of outline proposals that what are the cost implications of the sole use of included ideas about financing. A further meeting with officials has been held at the company’s request, trained teachers. [HL3894] and further meetings may follow. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Asked by Lord Jones of Cheltenham Department for Children, Schools and Families (Baroness Morgan of Drefelin): There are currently three funded To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they programmes with an element of one-to-one literacy last met Impregilo, the preferred bidder for the support in primary schools. The Every Child a Writer proposed airport in St Helena; and what was the programme and the one-to-one tuition programme outcome of the meeting. [HL3549] (which covers English and mathematics) are delivered solely by qualified tutors. A qualified tutor is: someone with qualified teacher status (QTS); Lord Tunnicliffe: The Parliamentary Under-Secretary an overseas qualified teacher eligible to teach in of State, Mike Foster, met with representatives of schools in England; Impregilo S.p.A. on 10 February 2009. He agreed to a newly qualified teacher in the summer before he keep them updated in respect of any decision on the or she attains QTS; and airport. This is now the subject of a public consultation. someone with teaching and subject-specific qualifications from the higher or further education sectors. In the third programme, Every Child a Reader, the Student Loans intensive support reading recovery element is delivered Question only by a trained teacher. The Fisher Family Trust Wave 3 materials are delivered one-to-one by a teaching Asked by Baroness Sharp of Guildford assistant. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps The total cost of the one-to-one tuition programme they have taken to sell off part of the student loan and the tuition element of the Every Child a Writer book, as provided for in the Sale of Student Loans programme is £468 million in this Comprehensive Act 2008. [HL3883] Spending Review period. This figure includes the cost of paying qualified tutors to deliver the tuition. During the school day, tutors are paid according to the pay scale set out in the school teachers’ pay and conditions The Minister of State, Department for Innovation, document. Outside the school day, tutors are paid a Universities and Skills (Lord Drayson): The Government suggested set rate, which was calculated based on still intend to make sales from the student loan book, teacher pay scales, research into the private tuition but it is clear that this should only be done at a time market and experience from the Making Good Progress when we can get a good return for the taxpayer. For pilot. the time being, the market conditions do not allow In addition primary schools are able to access help this. However we will actively look to identify opportunities from volunteers to support children’s reading, both for a sale that represents value for money as market locally organised programmes, and through national conditions improve. WA 113 Written Answers[4 JUNE 2009] Written Answers WA 114

Swine Flu We remain concerned about freedom of expression Question in Turkey and continue to stress to the Turkish Government that whilst we condemn all acts of and Asked by Baroness Neville-Jones support for terrorism, the non-violent expression of legitimate views should not be prosecuted. This is also To ask Her Majesty’s Government what help highlighted in the European Commission’s annual they have given or offered to the Government of progress report of November 2008 as not being in line Mexico to contain swine flu. [HL3442] with the European Court of Human Rights case law. The point is likely to reappear in this year’s report and Lord Tunnicliffe: The UK Government have been will need to be addressed if Turkey is to make progress in regular contact with the Mexican authorities about on EU accession. the outbreak and two specialists from the UK Health In our contacts with the DTP we also stress that Protection Agency have been temporarily seconded to they need to distance themselves from violence if they our embassy in Mexico City to provide a direct link are to take an active and constructive role in finding a between health professionals in both countries. The solution to the Kurdish issue. Mexican Government have not made a direct request for bilateral assistance from the United Kingdom. Zimbabwe Turkey Question Question Asked by Lord Taylor of Holbeach Asked by Lord Hylton To ask Her Majesty’s Government which authority To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the monitors the standards of establishments in Zimbabwe prosecutions in Turkey of Ahmet Turk, Emin Ayna, approved under Commission Decision 94/40/EC Fatma Kurtulan, Sebahettin Demirtas, Sebahat Tuncel for the purpose of importing meat products into and Aysel Tugluk, some of whom are elected the European Union; when they last did so; and parliamentarians, allegedly accused on grounds arising where any reports are published. [HL3886] from their speeches, affect Turkey’s application for European Union membership; if not, whether they will raise the matter with Turkey; and whether the The Minister of State, Department of Energy and European Union will take any action. [HL3935] Climate Change & Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): It is the The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth responsibility of the competent authority in Zimbabwe Office (Lord Malloch-Brown): The charges against the to monitor the standards of establishments in Zimbabwe Democratic Society Party (DTP) MPs relate to statements approved under Commission Decision 94/40/EC to which were allegedly part of speeches the MPs made export meat products to the European Union. The prior to their election to parliament. However, the European Commission’s Food and Veterinary Office DTP believe that as MPs they still benefit from (FVO) is responsible for carrying out checks on parliamentary immunity for the alleged offences. Debate compliance with the requirements of EU food safety between parliament and the courts about how the and quality, veterinary and plant health legislation immunity provisions in the constitution should be both within the European Union and of equivalent interpreted is ongoing and it is therefore unclear at standards in third countries that are approved to export present whether the trial will go ahead. No further to the EU. legal developments are expected before the end of The last FVO mission to Zimbabwe was in June September 2009 but we will continue to follow this 2003 on farmed ratite (ostrich) meat. The FVO publishes issue closely. its reports on its website.

Thursday 4 June 2009

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Climate Change: Greenhouse Gases ...... 13 EU: Telecoms Council ...... 14

Home Office: Annual Report...... 16 EU: Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council ...... 13 Immigration: Monitor for Entry Clearance Refusals ...... 16

Thursday 4 June 2009

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Agriculture: Disease Testing...... 101 Government Departments: Bottled Water ...... 108

Children: ContactPoint...... 101 Government Departments: Relocation ...... 108

Civil Service: Performance Pay ...... 103 Human Rights ...... 108

Criminal Records Bureau...... 103 Organophosphates...... 109

Cycling: Safety...... 103 Products of Animal Origin ...... 109

Employment: Discrimination...... 104 Rats ...... 110

Energy: Wind Generation ...... 104 Schools: Teachers...... 111

Equal Pay ...... 105 St Helena: Airport ...... 112

Equality and Human Rights Commission ...... 105 Student Loans...... 112

Equality Bill...... 105 Swine Flu...... 113

EU: Legislation...... 107 Turkey...... 113

Food and Environment Research Agency ...... 107 Zimbabwe ...... 114 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL3334] ...... 105 [HL3802] ...... 110

[HL3405] ...... 104 [HL3811] ...... 104

[HL3423] ...... 108 [HL3819] ...... 101

[HL3442] ...... 113 [HL3820] ...... 102

[HL3462] ...... 108 [HL3821] ...... 102

[HL3548] ...... 112 [HL3823] ...... 103

[HL3549] ...... 112 [HL3824] ...... 102

[HL3636] ...... 103 [HL3849] ...... 106

[HL3679] ...... 108 [HL3850] ...... 106

[HL3777] ...... 111 [HL3851] ...... 106

[HL3801] ...... 110 [HL3852] ...... 105 Col. No. Col. No. [HL3873] ...... 109 [HL3887] ...... 107

[HL3883] ...... 112 [HL3894] ...... 111 [HL3902] ...... 106 [HL3884] ...... 101 [HL3903] ...... 107 [HL3885] ...... 109 [HL3918] ...... 104 [HL3886] ...... 114 [HL3935] ...... 113 Volume 711 Thursday No. 84 4 June 2009

CONTENTS

Thursday 4 June 2009 Questions Schools: Head Teachers ...... 291 Holocaust Assets ...... 293 Justice: Sharia Law...... 296 North Korea...... 298 Business of the House Motion on Standing Orders...... 301 Business of the House Timing of Debates ...... 301 Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2009 Motion to Refer to Grand Committee...... 301 Creative Industries Debate ...... 301 Science, Technology and Engineering Debate ...... 342 Public Service Broadcasting (Communications Committee Report) Motion to Take Note ...... 379 Written Statements...... WS 13 Written Answers...... WA 101