Filing # 88897308 E-Filed 05/02/2019 02:45:23 PM
IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF APPEAL OF FLORIDA FIRST DISTRICT
CASE NO: 2018 CF 1592 A
DCA NO: 1D19-498
SPN NO: 255249
DENISE WILLIAMS,
APPELLANT,
VS
STATE OF FLORIDA,
APPELLEE, RECORD ON APPEAL FROM THE CIRCUIT COURT OF LEON COUNTY, FLORIDA HONORABLE JAMES HANKINSON RECEIVED, 05/02/2019 02:46:47 PM, Clerk, First District Court of Appeal
PHILIP J. PADOVANO ASHLEY MOODY 131 N. GADSDEN STREET ATTORNEY GENERAL TALLAHASSEE, FL 32301 PL-01, THE CAPITOL TALLAHASSEE, FL 32399-1050
ATTORNEY FOR APPELLANT ATTORNEY FOR APPELLEE IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SECOND JUDICIAL CIRCUIT, IN AND FOR LEON COUNTY FLORIDA
CASE NO: 2018 CF 1592A
DCA NO: 1D19-498
DENISE WILLIAMS,
PLAINTIFF/APPELLANT,
V.
STATE OF FLORIDA,
DEFENDANT/APPELLEE,
JURY TRIAL TRANSCRIPT CORRECTED
INDEX DATE FILED INSTRUMENT PAGE NO.
APR 18, 2019 TRANSCRIPT OF JURY TRIAL VOL 1 (12/11/2018) 1-116
APR 18, 2019 TRANSCRIPT OF JURY TRIAL VOL 2 (12/11/2018) 117-261
APR 18, 2019 TRANSCRIPT OF JURY TRIAL VOL 3 (12/12/2018) 262-396
APR 23, 2019 AMENDED TRANSCRIPT OF JURY TRIAL VOL 4 (12/12/2018) 397-530
APR 23, 2019 AMENDED TRANSCRIPT OF JURY TRIAL VOL 5 (12/13/2018) 531-664
APR 23, 2019 AMENDED TRANSCRIPT OF JURY TRIAL VOL 6 (12/13/2018) 665-697
APR 23, 2019 AMENDED TRANSCRIPT OF JURY TRIAL VOL 7 (12/14/2018) 698-798
MAY 2, 2019 CERTIFICATE OF CLERK 1 Filing # 88164292 E -Filed 04/18/2019 09:10:44 AM
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SECOND JUDICIAL CIRCUIT, IN AND FOR LEON COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. : 2018CF1592A
STATE OF FLORIDA
vs.
DENISE WILLIAMS,
Defendant. -----/
VOLUME I- Pages 1 thru 116
PROCEEDINGS: JURY TRIAL
BEFORE: THE HONORABLE JAMES C. HANKINSON
DATE: December 11, 2018
TIME: Commencing at 8:33 a.m. Concluding at 11:49 a.m.
LOCATION: Leon County Courthouse Tallahassee, Florida
REPORTED BY: LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at Large
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR Official Court Reporter Leon County Courthouse, Room 341 Tallahassee, FL 32301
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 2
1 APPEARANCES
2 REPRESENTING THE STATE:
3 JON FUCHS, ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY OFFICE OF THE STATE ATTORNEY 4 WAKULLA COUNTY COURTHOUSE CRAWFORDVILLE, FLORIDA 32327 5
6
7 REPRESENTING THE DEFENDANT:
8 ETHAN WAY, ESQUIRE WAY LAW FIRM, P.A. 9 P.O. BOX 10017 TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32302 10 and PHILIP J.PADOVANO, ESQUIRE 11 BRANNOCK & HUMPHRIES 131 N. GADSDEN STREET 12 TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301
13 INDEX 14 WITNESSES: PAGE: 15 GREG MORRIS
16 Direct Examination By Mr. Fuchs 70 Cross Examination By Mr. Way 77 17
18 SCOTT DUNGEY
19 Direct Examination By Mr. Rogers 83 Cross Examination By Mr. Way 98 20
21 JOSEPH SHEFFIELD
22 Direct Examination By Mr. Rogers 105 Cross Examination By Mr. Way 111 23 STATE'S EXHIBIT:
24 lA-iD 74 Certificate of Reporter 116 25
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 3
1 PROCEEDINGS
2 THE COURT: we are here in State of Florida versus
3 williams, 2018-1592. Let the record reflect the
4 defendant is present with her attorneys.
5 I know we have the Dungey deposition to deal with.
6 Any other outstanding motions or issues we need to deal
7 with before we start?
8 MR. FUCHS: None from the State, Your Honor.
9 MR. WAY: None from the defense, Your Honor.
10 THE COURT: Okay. well, let's -- let's deal with
11 that. It's a little confusing. Let me make sure I
12 understand. This was a deposition taken by the defense,
13 but the State intends to use it. Is that my
14 understandi ng?
15 MR. FUCHS: No, Your Honor. This was -- this was
16 something that was done -- it was a perpetuated testimony
17 in which i elicited -- there were two different parts.
18 There was -- the first part was the State doing direct
19 examination of Mr. Dungey the State intends to use in its
20 case in chief, in which I directed the questions, and
21 Mr. way had an opportunity for cross-examination -- and
22 actually I apologize. It was actually Mr. Rogers who
23 conducted the direct examination.
24 Then there's a second part that was done where the
25 questions were perpetuated by -- Mr. way did the direct
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER I
1 examination, I did the cross examination. And that is
2 intended -- if at all used, it will be used in the
3 defense case -in -chief.
4 THE COURT: okay. well,I misunderstood because I
5 didn't -- I thought it was all one deposition.
6 MR. FUCHS: No, sir.
7 THE COURT: So, on the direct examination, you
8 intend to present that there -- are there objections in
9 that?
10 MR. FUCHS: There are, Your Honor. As I stated
11 yesterday, I believe there were -- I think there was
12 three objections, at which time Mr. Rogers reasked the
13 question in a different way instead of having the witness
14 answer those questions.
15 THE COURT: well, let's go through what objections
16 there are. The --
17 MR. FUCHS: I believe the first was on Page 13, Your
18 Honor.
19 THE COURT: The confusing part of it is that the
20 title page has Scott Dungey, perpetuation of testimony
21 commenced at 10:00 a.m., 10:30 on both of these
22 transcripts.
23 MR. FUCHS: The transcript in question that the
24 State is talking about is 26 pages, Your Honor, and it
25 begins with -- on Page 2. It says -- I'm sorry. On
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 5
1 Page 3,it identifies Mr. -- Attorney Rogers on Line
2 No. 23 as the direct examination.
3 THE COURT: I mean, I'm with you, but it is --
4 looking at the title page, it says it's both at the same
5 time; so that's kind of -- I'm not sure why the court
6 reporter did that.
7 So, where is the first objection?
8 MR. FUCHS: The questioning starts on Page 13. The
9 actual objection is on 14.
10 THE COURT: Questioning starts on Page 13?
11 MR. FUCHS: At the bottom of 13. It would be --
12 THE COURT: It starts on page -- oh, the objection
13 you are talking about?
14 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir. On page -- on Line 24 is the
15 question, and the objection is actually on Page 14,
16 Line 3.
17 THE COURT: Okay. well, there's no answer, so
18 there's nothing for the Court to rule on as to that;
19 correct?
20 MR. FUCHS: That's my understanding, yes, Your
21 Honor.
22 THE COURT: Mr. Way.
23 MR. WAY: As Mr. Fuchs indicated, I think what
24 happened was I made an objection, Your Honor, and part of
25 it was -- is the narrative of the question was getting
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 outside -- started to get outside of the scope. I
2 objected. Mr. Rogers reasked a different question; so it
3 essentially ameliorated the concern.
4 THE COURT: Okay. So, there's no ruling to be made
5 there. Then down -- I guess down at the -- top of the
6 next page, there is an objection too.
7 MR. FUCHS: Yes, Your Honor. And that question
8 starts actually on Page 14, Line 21. And, again, it was
9 restated.
10 THE COURT: All right. So,I really see no
11 objection to rule on there either, Mr. Way.
12 MR. WAY: Again, Your Honor, given the flow of the
13 testimony, once the objection was made, the State
14 promptly addressed the question -- it was getting into an
15 opinion about the condition of the certain items.
16 THE COURT: well, tell me what -- where there are
17 objections I need to rule on. None of those appear to be
18 objections that need a ruling.
19 MR. WAY: That is correct, Your Honor.
20 THE COURT: Okay. Are there any in the
21 cross-exami nation?
22 MR. FUCHS: The only time is on Page 22, and, again,
23 Mr. Way rephrased the question, Your Honor.
24 THE COURT: So, there are no objections for me to
25 rule on?
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 7
1 MR. FUCHS: No. All questions had been re- -- were
2 restated.
3 THE COURT: Okay. So,thelong and short of it,
4 there is nothingfor metoruleon?
5 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir, on that part. That is
6 correct.
7 THE COURT: well, is there some other part that
8 the -- we're going to be attempting to be used?
9 MR. WAY: Your Honor, the defense took a deposition
10 to perpetuate at the same time. I believe you have a
11 copy of that.
12 THE COURT: Right.
13 MR. WAY: I don't know if you want to deal with that
14 now or if you want to deal with it in a couple of days.
15 THE COURT: So, that you're going to wait and try to
16 present in your case -in -chief?
17 MR. WAY: That would be when I would do it, Your
18 Honor. I don't think there is a reason to rule on them
19 now.
20 THE COURT: Okay. Well, if you all will remind me.
21 i have reviewed that portion of it and prepared to rule,
22 but it's just as well to wait and make sure you are going
23 to present it and what the circumstances are at that
24 point in time. Perhaps the Court will be aware of the
25 issues it's not aware of at this point in time. You just
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 need to remind me.
2 MR. WAY: I will, Your Honor.
3 THE COURT: Okay. Does the defense want the
4 instruction on the right to remain silent to be given as
5 part of the preliminary instructions?
6 MR. WAY: Yes, Your Honor.
7 THE COURT: The -- I received a witness list and
8 exhibit list from the State. I assume it's from the
9 State.
10 MR. FUCHS: It is, Your Honor.
11 THE COURT: Does the defense have a witness list and
12 evidence list?
13 MR. WAY: Yes, Your Honor. May I approach?
14 THE COURT: YOU may. Thank you.
15 And have the exhibits for both sides been marked?
16 MR. FUCHS: They have for the State, Your Honor.
17 THE COURT: Mr. way, did you mark your exhibits?
18 MR. WAY: I have not marked my exhibits yet, Your
19 Honor, because of ordering and scheduling.
20 THE COURT: Okay. Well, you know, we apparently
21 have a day or so to do, so -- but if you would go ahead
22 and get your exhibits marked, show them to the other
23 side, that will facilitate things.
24 MR. WAY: Absolutely, Your Honor. They will be
25 ready.
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 THE COURT: Have you shown the defense your
2 witnesses, Mr. Fuchs?
3 MR. FUCHS: He does not have my witness list, Your
4 Honor. I will give him my exhibit list, and we will go
5 over the exhibits here momentarily.
6 THE COURT: we will take a quick, quick break before
7 we start with the jury. what i would ask is that you'd
8 show them the marked exhibits. Then the defense can rely
9 upon that what's being shown to a witness so we don't
10 need to go through a big charade of showing it to the
11 other side at the time.
12 If you change anything, Mr. Fuchs, please let the
13 defense know.
14 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir.
15 THE COURT: I sent you a draft set of jury
16 instructions last night. Unfortunately, for some reason
17 or another, the one to Mr. way got kicked back. I don't
18 know. i was using an email off of the Bar website, so
19 maybe I had it wrong. Anyway, my judicial assistant has
20 resent them this morning to everybody; so everybody
21 should have a draft set of jury instructions and verdict
22 form.
23 So, at some point in time, you'll need to print
24 those out so we can begin some discussion of that. we
25 will need to do that this morning, but if any of you
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 10
1 don't receive it, please let me know. You should have
2 those this morning.
3 MR. WAY: I received my copy from Ms. Rissinger at
4 8:20, and I sent them to my office to be printed.
5 THE COURT: Okay. All right. And I assume you got
6 yours, Mr. Fuchs?
7 MR. FUCHS: We did, Your Honor.
8 THE COURT: All right. Either side aware of
9 anything unusual or novel you're going to be requesting
10 that I provide as jury instructions?
11 MR. FUCHS: None from the State, Your Honor.
12 MR. PADOVANO: No, sir.
13 THE COURT: If somebody comes up with something new,
14 I would like to have a chance to research it a little
15 bit. Every once in a while somebody will surprise me
16 with something. I want no surprises.
17 MR. WAY: Not yet, Your Honor. But if we have any,
18 we will discuss them among --
19 THE COURT: All right. Please get them to me as
20 early as we can, so I'd have a chance to look at them in
21 advance.
22 MR. WAY: we will, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: Okay. We've already discussed
24 objections and the handling of -- because of the multiple
25 attorneys. Anybody have a question on that?
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 MR. FUCHS: No, Your Honor.
2 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
3 THE COURT: All right. Does the defense intend to
4 concede guilt as to any criminal charges in the case,
5 Mr. Way?
6 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor, we are not going to
7 concede guilt to anything.
8 THE COURT: Okay. Either side wish to invoke the
9 rule of sequestration?
10 MR. WAY: The defense so requests, Your Honor.
11 THE COURT: All right, If we have potential
12 witnesses in the courtroom, please stand. A rule of
13 sequestration has been invoked. That means you need to
14 remain outside of the courtroom, except while you are
15 testifying.
16 while you are waiting to testify and until you have
17 been excused, you are not to discuss the case among
18 yourselves or with any other person. An important
19 exception to that is you are free to talk to the
20 attorneys for either side, just not in the presence of
21 any other witnesses.
22 I admonish counsels, since there are witnesses not
23 present, it's your obligation to make all witnesses aware
24 of the Court's ruling, we will let the witnesses step
25 out.
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 12
1 MR. FUCHS: Thank you, Your Honor.
2 THE COURT: we will just swear them as we go.
3 All right. Anything else from either side?
4 MR. FUCHS: No. The only question I have, and I put
5 it on the exhibit list, is Mr. Dungey's -- the transcript
6 as well as the recording I was going to mark as Court
7 Exhibit No. 1. I want to make sure that's okay with the
8 Court, or do they want me to mark it as a State's
9 exhibit? I just want to make sure I mark it correctly.
10 THE COURT: Court exhibit would be appropriate,
11 because we have to remember that's not something that
12 goes back to the jury during their deliberations. So
13 that distinction would probably be helpful
14 So, now are you going to present that by video or --
15 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir.
16 THE COURT: Okay.
17 MR. FUCHS: And I have copies of the transcripts,
18 too, that I would like to be distributed to the jurors.
19 THE COURT: Okay. If you would make the transcript
20 1A so we can have some record of that. And we will just
21 need to remember those don't go back to the jury.
22 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir.
23 THE COURT: Anything else from either side?
24 MR. FUCHS: Not from the State.
25 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 13
1 THE COURT: Okay. So,I think we're waiting on one
2 juror. It was my intention to take about 10 minutes, let
3 everybody have a break, and then start with the jury. Is
4 that agreeable to everybody?
5 MR. FUCHS: Yes, Your Honor.
6 MR. WAY: Yes, Your Honor.
7 THE COURT: Assuming we have our last juror, we will
8 start back at 8:55 with the Court's preliminary
9 instruction. We will be in recess.
10 (Break taken.)
11 THE COURT: All right. We're here in State versus
12 Williams. we are in chambers at the request of the
13 attorneys. It's my understanding the defense wanted to
14 waive Ms. Williams' presence for this proceeding.
15 MR. WAY: we will, Your Honor.
16 THE COURT: Okay. All right. So, what's the
17 situation?
18 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, we've come to information
19 regarding one of the jurors that possibly violated one of
20 the Court's rules. I will allow Mr. Newlin to explain.
21 THE COURT: Okay.
22 MR. NEWLIN: we received a call from Colby Cherry
23 this morning. He said he was on Facebook yesterday,
24 posted a comment along the lines of: I hope this jury is
25 smart with this case.
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 14
1 He received a reply from a whitney Johnson who said:
2 Are you calling me dumb? He replied: Are you a juror?
3 And she replied: shh. And so he called the office with
4 that this morning.
5 THE COURT: well, what do you all wish to do?
6 MR. NEWLIN: Can I add? I just got more. Whitney
7 told him not to tell anybody.
8 MR. FUCHS: She specifically said: Don't tell
9 anybody?
10 MR. NEWLIN: I can call him.
11 MR. FUCHS: Yeah.
12 MR. WAY: May I ask a question, Your Honor?
13 THE COURT: You may.
14 MR. WAY: Mr. Newlin, does Mr. Chase have any
15 relationship or anything to do with the State?
16 MR. NEWLIN: It's Colby Cherry. I've never heard
17 the name before, no.
18 MR. WAY: She just called out of the blue and --
19 MR. NEWLIN: He did. Colby Cherry --
20 MR. WAY: Colby Cherry called out of the blue?
21 MR. NEWLIN: Yeah.
22 MR. WAY: You don't know who this person is or
23 anything?
24 MR. NEWLIN: No,I do not.
25 MR. WAY: Thank you, Your Honor.
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 15
1 THE COURT: Do you all have a position?
2 MR. WAY: She violated. It would appear that she
3 may have violated a court order. I mean, I don't think
4 we probably need to verify it, if it's her or if it's
5 just somebody trolling pretending to be her.
6 Respectfully, I mean, I can be a French model on the
7 internet. That doesn't mean that I'm who that person is,
8 but I think an inquiry is worthwhile.
9 MR. FUCHS: I think that's where I am at, is inquire
10 and then see what the response is and go from there.
11 MR. WAY: Whitney Johnson is a common name, Your
12 Honor. Not being on a jury is, but --
13 THE COURT: Well, what are you asking that I do?
14 MR. WAY: I -- if the Court would be comfortable if
15 we could just inquire of the juror and find out if the
16 juror violated the rules of the Court, and we can go from
17 there. If it's -- it may not even be her. It may be
18 somebody else.
19 THE COURT: Yeah. But my only question would be
20 something like, we received information that a Whitney
21 Johnson may have responded to a jury thing on social
22 media. obviously, your name is the same. Is it you?
23 And see what she says about it. And then inquire as to
24 what she did, and then we will have to go from there.
25 MR. WAY: The defense would be concerned, Your
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 16
1 Honor, that if you are -- if you are out there trolling
2 around on Facebook, given the nature of this case and the
3 publicity, that nothing good will befall the defense. we
4 would want Ms. Johnson removed from the jury.
5 THE COURT: well, I'm not sure, based on what she
6 said, she's really violated the Court's order. She
7 hasn't commented on the case. It certainly is not what
8 we would prefer.
9 MR. FUCHS: And that's -- I'm sorry. That's what --
10 my intention of the inquiry, and then an admonishment of,
11 Stay away from that kind of stuff. I don't know that
12 she's necessarily violated it, like you said.
13 THE COURT: So, how do you see that she has violated
14 it, Mr. way? Let's assume this is all accurate.
15 MR. WAY: well, depending on how -- without knowing
16 the nature of the Facebook post, it would be a situation
17 where the witness or the juror would have been
18 exploring -- it would -- my concern -- it would be a
19 situation, Your Honor, where the juror, against the
20 admonition, went to look up information on the case and
21 would have had to have been conducting an online
22 exploration related to this particular case to even come
23 across the posting of this Colby Chase (sic). So, my
24 concern --
25 THE COURT: Colby Cherry.
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 17
1 MR. WAY: I'm sorry, Your Honor.
2 THE COURT: Well --
3 MR. WAY: Colby Cherry. So my concern would be if
4 you have a juror who is out there doing exploration
5 online about the case and then commenting on a posting by
6 someone and then asking that person not to tell anyone
7 that you're doing it,I believe that to be somewhat
8 troubling conduct. Because it's not as if they stumbled
9 upon a newspaper in the lobby. It's -- you have to take
10 affirmative steps online to get to this kind of
11 information, is my understanding of how the Facebook --
12 THE COURT: I'm not a Facebook expert. In fact, I
13 know nothing essentially. But I thought that if this
14 person was on the friend list with the juror, that it --
15 this comment, I hope this jury is smart, would
16 automatically pop up. I'm not -- I'm not certain it
17 takes someone going and trolling for information, as you
18 characterized it, but --
19 MR. ROGERS: Judge, may I add into that conversation
20 a little bit? It could be two ways, and that's what we
21 don't know here. One is Colby Cherry was posting
22 something on his own Facebook page. That would require
23 the juror in question to be a friend and comment to his
24 Facebook page directly. Alternatively, if, say, there's
25 a news article on theTallahassee Democrator one of the
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 news sources and just open comments, Colby Cherry says --
2 posted the comment, I hope this jury is smart, she could
3 have replied in that thread. But without knowing more
4 information as to what she saw and what she replied to,
5 we can't make that determination.
6 MR. NEWLIN: Do you want me to --
7 THE COURT: Have a seat, Mr. Newlin. If -- let's
8 try to keep some kind of order here. If you want to add
9 to it, let's make it clear that's what we are doing.
10 Mr. Fuchs?
11 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir.
12 Did you find any information --
13 MR. NEWLIN: Yes. Colby Cherry is a friend of or an
14 acquaintance of whitney Johnson. It was actually a
15 Snapchat back and forth. He said he was going to attend
16 the Denise Williams trial, hoped the jurors aren't dumb.
17 She replied: Are you calling me dumb or stupid? And
18 then they went back and forth about, Please don't tell
19 anybody I'm on the jury. And so --
20 MR. FUCHS: So they were friends and an automatic
21 pop-up?
22 MR. NEWLIN: Yeah.
23 MR. FUCHS: Okay.
24 THE COURT: And what -- did she make any actual
25 comment about the circumstances of the case other than,
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 19
1 I'm a juror and don't tell anyone?
2 MR. NEWLIN: No, sir. And Snapchat is a little
3 different than Facebook. It's not one where you actually
4 research topics. It's -- actually somebody has to put it
5 out there for you to see, so --
6 THE COURT: So, she would have automatically gotten
7 this comment from Mr. Cherry?
8 MR. NEWLIN: Correct.
9 MR. WAY: I will withdraw my objection to any
10 concern then.
11 THE COURT: I just worry a little bit about singling
12 her out and bringing her in for inquiry. That just kind
13 of alienates the juror in some fashion. I think what I
14 would prefer to do is give them further admonition. And
15 if you all want me to even say that, you know, we've
16 received report of a juror, you know, making comment on
17 the internet, fairly innocuous, but jurors should be
18 aware that people are constantly monitoring these types
19 of things, and if they make any comment on the internet,
20 it is likely to be reported to the Court, and they should
21 refrain from doing so.
22 MR. FUCHS: I think you should expand that with,
23 including comments, not just on the internet, but talk
24 about social media comments. Don't have to say
25 Instagram, Facebook and all of that stuff, but call them
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 20
1 social media for what they are, because some people won't
2 actually think of those as being the internet. They
3 think of the internet are the things you'd go out and
4 search for; whereas, social media are just kind of
5 conversational.
6 THE COURT: Mr. way?
7 MR. WAY: I agree, Your Honor.
8 THE COURT: All right. Anything else?
9 MR. WAY: while i have the court reporter here, Your
10 Honor, it would be my duty to advise that yesterday
11 evening, as the Court was adjourned, Mr. Padovano and I
12 were stranded on the first floor with all of the jurors.
13 We removed ourselves to the clerk's office. They all
14 asked us through the glass where the exit was, and we
15 made a signal with our hands that it was P3, to go down.
16 That was the limit of our contact with the jurors.
17 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you for bringing that to my
18 attention.
19 MR. PADOVANO: And one of the jurors kindly told the
20 others that the reason we did that is because we were not
21 permitted to speak with them. So they were kind of let
22 off of the hook a little bit.
23 THE COURT: Okay. I do often make that comment to
24 the jurors. I think maybe I will make that kind of
25 comment, if you all wish.
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 21
1 MR. PADOVANO: Yeah.
2 MR. FUCHS: Yeah.
3 MR. WAY: Yes, sir, because depending on how late
4 the trial goes, we're all kind of stuck in the same
5 areas.
6 THE COURT: Okay.
7 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, and we do have one more
8 procedural thing that we've talked about outside.
9 Mr. Winchester is going to invoke his Fifth Amendment
10 right to remain silent, and we're going to compel his
11 testimony pursuant to the subpoena.
12 The question is whether that needs to be done in
13 front of the jury or outside of the presence of the jury.
14 And it would be the State's position that it's done
15 outside of the presence of the jury, given the case law
16 that talks about calling someone for invoking their Fifth
17 Amendment right to remain silent and along those lines.
18 THE COURT: Does the defense have a different
19 position?
20 MR. WAY: I have a slightly more -- I have a
21 slightly different concern, but it's similar. I know
22 that Mr. Jansen is -- it's the intention of the State to
23 call Mr. Jansen to introduce or to testify as it relates
24 to the proffer agreement. I would think foundationally
25 it would be if Mr. Jansen testifies, says, This is what's
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 22
1 going to happen, and his witness -- his client is going
2 to testify pursuant to compel testimony, it may give a
3 clearer picture to the jury. Otherwise, if he's going to
4 stand up, if Mr. winchester's intention is to invoke the
5 Fifth Amendment in the light of the proffered agreement,
6 I think that that could be relevant for what -- how the
7 jury weighs his testimony.
8 THE COURT: I'm not going to get too involved in all
9 of that. In terms of should he invoke in front of the
10 jury or outside the presence of the jury,I think it's
11 clear it should be done outside the presence of the jury,
12 and we will do so at the appropriate time. when do you
13 expect Mr. Winchester to testify?
14 MR. FUCHS: I believe it will be after lunch, Your
15 Honor. we've already talked to the --
16 THE COURT: Okay. So we have him brought in, you
17 know, before we bring the jury in, and hopefully it's
18 a -- you know, at the end of the lunch break would be
19 ideal . If we could do it at that point in time -- I hope
20 we will do it at that point in time.
21 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir.
22 THE COURT: Okay. All right. Let's get started.
23 MR. PADOVANO: Thank you.
24 (In chambers conference was concluded.)
25 THE COURT: Are we ready for the jury?
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 23
1 MR. FUCHS: Yes, Your Honor.
2 THE COURT: Defense ready?
3 MR. WAY: The defense is ready, Your Honor.
4 THE COURT: All right. Let's have the jury, please.
5 (Jury in.)
6 THE COURT: When you all come in, you can be seated.
7 They are standing for you. All right. Everybody be
8 seated, please.
9 Good morning, folks. Thank you for being back here
10 this morning. I try to run court on time, and I'm going
11 to ask you all to work with me on that. Please be
12 punctual. we have a lot of people waiting. we have a
13 lot of activity going on. If you are not punctual, then
14 everybody is delayed, and, you know, we don't want to be
15 here next week because one of our jurors can't get here
16 on time.
17 i know all of us probably have your friends that are
18 time challenged, so you lie to them about what time to be
19 here to get them there on time. I don't want to do that
20 way with you all. I want to be -- you know, tell you
21 exactly when we need you. If we have a problem with
22 that, then we will just start -- start a half hour before
23 we really need you. That's not what I want to do. So,
24 if you all work with us, let's make time. You know
25 you're time challenged. If you are, then you need to
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 24
1 work that out and make sure you get here early.
2 we were also delayed a little bit in getting started
3 because the Court has already received a report of a
4 juror making some comment on the internet about their
5 jury service. In the grand scheme of things, the comment
6 was fairly innocuous. I'm not going to take any action
7 on it at this point in time, but you need to be aware if
8 you comment on social media, people are out there
9 watching, people are out there listening. It will be
10 reported, and then we are going to have a problem.
11 During the course of this trial, you just need to
12 stay off of the social media. You can't be making any
13 kind of comment at all, because the next thing you know,
14 it comes back to the court. Sometimes it comes back a
15 little twisted, and, you know, it's just something we
16 need to avoid.
17 So,i know I've talked about it before, and then we
18 still had a minor problem. Let's not have any problems
19 on that. we went through a lot of trouble yesterday to
20 get a jury that can fairly and impartially hear this case
21 based upon what's presented here in the courtroom. Let's
22 keep it that way, please. So, sorry to start out by
23 chiding you over things, but I don't want, you know, us
24 to get off on the wrong foot in this case.
25 You've now been selected and sworn as the jury to
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 25
1 try the case of State of Florida versus Denise Williams.
2 As we've already discussed, this is a criminal case.
3 Ms. Williams is charged with three charges: Conspiracy
4 to commit first degree murder, first degree murder, and
5 accessory after the fact of first degree murder.
6 Later, during the course of the trial, I will
7 explain to you the exact elements of each of those
8 offenses. The indictment that I read from yesterday is
9 not evidence, and it is not to be considered by you as
10 any proof of guilt.
11 it's my job to explain the law to you. It is your
12 job to decide the facts and to apply facts to the law.
13 That's one of the fundamental principles of our system of
14 justice. I decide the law. You decide the facts. You
15 apply the facts to the law.
16 I know all of you see trials on TV from time to
17 time, but you probably don't see one from begin to end.
18 So it may be helpful if you understand the sequence of
19 events.
20 At the beginning of the trial, the attorneys will
21 have an opportunity to make an opening statement. The
22 opening statement gives the attorneys a chance to tell
23 you what evidence they believe will be presented during
24 the trial, what the lawyers say is not evidence and you
25 are not to consider it as such.
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 26
1 Following the opening statements, witnesses will be
2 called to testify under oath. They will be examined and
3 cross-examined by the attorneys. Documents and other
4 exhibits also may be produced as evidence. After the
5 evidence has been presented, I will instruct you on the
6 law. The attorneys will then have an opportunity to make
7 their closing arguments. Following the closing arguments
8 by the attorneys and some brief concluding remarks by the
9 Court, you will retire to consider your verdict.
10 You should not form any definite or fixed opinion on
11 the merits of the case until you have heard all of the
12 evidence, the arguments of the lawyers, and the
13 instructions on the law that I will give you. until that
14 time, you are not to discuss the case among yourselves.
15 Your verdict must be based solely on the evidence or lack
16 of evidence and the law that I will explain to you.
17 i now instruct you not to communicate with anyone,
18 including your fellow jurors, about this case. No
19 communication includes no emailing, text messaging,
20 Tweeting, blogging, or any other form of communication.
21 You cannot do any research about the case or look up any
22 information about the case. If you become aware of any
23 violation of these rules at all, please notify the Court
24 personnel of the violation.
25 During the course of the trial, we will take
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 27
1 recesses, and you will be permitted to separate and go
2 about your personal affairs. During these recesses, you
3 must not discuss the case with anyone, nor permit anyone
4 to say anything to you or in your presence about the
5 case. If anyone attempts to say anything to you or in
6 your presence about the case, tell them that you are on
7 the jury trying the case and ask them to stop. If they
8 persist, leave them at once and immediately report the
9 matter to the bailiff, who will advise me.
10 The case must be tried by you only on the evidence
11 presented during the trial in your presence and in the
12 presence of the defendant, the attorneys, and myself.
13 Jurors must not conduct any investigation of their own.
14 This includes reading newspaper, watching television, or
15 using a computer or cell phone, the internet, or any
16 electronic device or any other means at all to get
17 information related to the case or the people and places
18 involved in the case. This applies whether you're in the
19 courthouse, at home, or anywhere else. You must not
20 visit places mentioned in the trial or use the internet
21 to look at maps or pictures to see any place discussed
22 during the trial.
23 In every criminal proceeding, a defendant has the
24 absolute right to remain silent. At no time is it the
25 duty of a defendant to prove her innocence. From the
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 exercise of a defendant's right to remain silent, a juror
2 it not permitted to draw any inference of guilt, and the
3 fact that a defendant did not take the witness stand must
4 not influence your verdict in any manner whatsoever.
5 The attorneys are trained in the rules of evidence
6 and trial procedure, and it is their duty to make all
7 objections they feel are proper.
8 when an objection is made, you should not speculate
9 on the reason why it is made. Likewise, when an
10 objectionis sustainedor upheld by me, you must not
11 speculateon what mighthave occurred had the objection
12 not been sustained nor what a witness might have said had
13 he or she been permitted to answer.
14 During the trial, it may be necessary to confer with
15 the attorneys out of your hearing to discuss matters that
16 require my consideration alone. It is impossible to
17 predict when such a conference may be required or how
18 long it will last. when such conferences occur, they
19 will be conducted so as to consume as little of your time
20 as is necessary for a fair and orderly trial of the case.
21 If it's going to be something extended, we will
22 generally let you step out. If it's something we can do
23 quickly, we will probably go over here to the side of the
24 room. we call that a sidebar because it's to the side of
25 bar. It will be outside of your presence.
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 29
1 Sometimes I worry that juries think something
2 unusual or exciting has happened. That's generally
3 something fairly procedural. It's not anything for you
4 to be concerned about, but that's just a normal part of
5 the trial.
6 Let me comment on one other thing. You might run
7 into the attorneys in the hallway. They are not going to
8 talk to you. That's not because they are rude or aloof
9 people. That's just they understand the rules of the
10 court. You can understand somebody seeing you talk to an
11 attorney, they don't know what's being said, and it could
12 be misconstrued.
13 So, during the course of the trial, just don't have
14 any conversation with them, and they are not going to
15 talk to you, and accept that those are just the rules of
16 the Court.
17 If you would like to take notes during the trial,
18 you may do so. On the other hand, you are not required
19 to. That is entirely up to you. we have given you a
20 notepad and a pen for your use, if you wish to take
21 notes. Any notes that you take will be for your personal
22 use; however, you should not take them with you from the
23 courtroom until you start your deliberations.
24 During recesses, if you'll leave your notes in your
25 seat, the bailiff will ensure they are not tampered with
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 by anyone. After you've completed your deliberations,
2 the bailiff will destroy your notes. No one will ever
3 read your notes. If you take notes, do not get so
4 involved in note -taking that you become distracted from
5 the proceedings.
6 And you may wonder what I mean by that. we've had a
7 rare instance, but occasionally we'll get a juror that
8 kind of tries to be a court reporter and take down every
9 word that's said here in the courtroom. An important
10 part of your job is to observe the witnesses, decide
11 whether you think they're accurate historians or not.
12 Don't get so buried in note -taking that you lose that
13 function.
14 Your notes should be used only as aids to your
15 memory. whether or not you take notes, you should rely
16 on your memory of the evidence, and you should not be
17 unduly influenced by the notes of other jurors. Notes
18 are not entitled to any greater weight than each juror's
19 memory of the evidence.
20 During the trial, you will be permitted to ask
21 questions of witnesses in case you missed something, you
22 did not understand something, or you need to clarify a
23 pertinent issue. The rules of evidence apply regardless
24 of whether a question is asked by the attorneys, by me,
25 or by you; therefore, there may be a legal reason why I
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 31
1 cannot ask your question. If I do not ask your question,
2 you must not hold that against any of the parties, and
3 please do not take it personally.
4 Subject to that understanding, this is how we will
5 proceed. when the attorneys have finished asking their
6 questioning, if you have a question, simply raise your
7 hand. Now, we don't do it in the middle of the witness.
8 we do it at the end of the witness. I'll try to stop and
9 remember to ask you. Occasionally, in my old age, I
10 forget. But if I forget, just raise your hand. I will
11 give you time to write your question on a clean piece of
12 paper. The bailiff will collect your question. I will
13 then confer privately with the attorneys. If I determine
14 that it is a legally appropriate question, I will ask
15 your question, and the attorneys will be allowed to ask
16 follow-up questions. If your question is not asked, you
17 must not discuss it with other jurors or hold it against
18 either party.
19 The questioning of witnesses is the primary
20 responsibility of the attorneys. You are not obligated
21 to ask any questions nor encouraged to ask large numbers
22 of questions; however, if it will help your understanding
23 of the case, you may do so.
24 As I indicated, the next thing to occur is the
25 attorneys will be given an opportunity to make an opening
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 32
1 statement. As I've already said, what the attorneys say
2 is not evidence, and you should not consider it as such.
3 However,I do encourage you to give them your careful
4 attention. The opening statements are intended to give
5 you an understanding of the evidence that the attorneys
6 expect to present and the issues in the case.
7 we will start with the State of Florida.
8 MR. FUCHS: Thank you, Your Honor.
9 Good morning, again.
10 THE JURORS: Good morning.
11 MR. FUCHS: The first thing I would like to do is
12 thank you. I know yesterday I thanked you for being
13 potential jurors, but today you are, in fact, the jurors.
14 you were selected to be the jurors because myself and
15 other counsel, as well as Ms. williams, paid attention
16 throughout the course of jury selection and felt that you
17 were the best to come in and try this particular case and
18 listen to the evidence that is presented before you.
19 And, once again, thank you very much for your civic
20 duty in coming in and doing this. we literally cannot do
21 this without you. You all are in a little bit unique
22 situation because yesterday you heard a little bit about
23 the facts of this case, but now you get to hear what they
24 call "the rest of the story.'T
25 So, what happened? How did we get here today? What
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 33
1 you are going to hear is back on December 16th of 2000,
2 Jerry Michael williams, he goes as Mike Williams, is an
3 avid duck hunter. He likes to go out and duck hunt on a
4 regular basis. On this particular day, he went out and
5 did that very thing. He went out to go duck hunting.
6 You are going to hear this is also the anniversary
7 with himself -- and at the time he was married to Denise
8 Williams. This is their anniversary day. So, on this
9 particular day, there's a plan where he is going to go
10 out, he is going to duck hunt, he's going to come home,
11 and then afterwards they are going to leave and go to
12 Apalachicola to celebrate their anniversary that evening
13 and stay at the Gibson Inn and have dinner and things
14 along those lines.
15 You are going to hear that on this particular day,
16 one of the places that he typically goes to is Lake
17 Jackson -- or Lake Seminole, excuse me. Lake Seminole is
18 about an hour to the west of Tallahassee, northwest a
19 little bit. It's actually in Jackson County, which is
20 the next county over from Gadsden, and that's where he
21 goes. And actually where he hunts is over here on the
22 west side of Lake Seminole, just around the area of
23 Sneads.
24 what you are going to hear is that he never came
25 back. He disappeared. In the afternoon hours, Florida
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 wildlife Commission are contacted as well as other family
2 members, and they start trying to figure out where he is
3 and they go looking for him. In the landing right off of
4 on the north side -- I mean, on the west side of Lake
5 Jackson -- Lake Seminole they have his Bronco as well as
6 the trailer.
7 You are going to hear that large number of friends,
8 family members, FWC officers, civilians, law enforcement,
9 everybody converges on here and starts to try to find
10 him. ''ou are going to hear -- this right here is a
11 little -- what we call a slide, where you can launch a
12 boat from. And then as you can see, this is an old --
13 Lake Seminole is an old pecan farm that they flooded with
14 a damn; so it's a reservoir. And as you can see, you
15 have a lot of stumps in this particular area.
16 The initial thought, of course, is that he possibly
17 would be running the boat out to go to this duck hunting
18 area, he hit a stump, possibly was thrown overboard, the
19 boat went off, and they were hopeful to find him maybe on
20 this island back in here or something along those lines
21 and move on.
22 You are going to have an opportunity to hear from a
23 couple of the FWC officers that were there, one of which
24 is Alton Renew. Alton Renew comes out there and he's
25 kind of the coordinator of this whole thing, and he kind
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 35
1 of takes the lead on it and they conduct a search. And
2 what you are going to hear is it's a very methodical
3 search. They do grid patterns. They have a helicopter
4 up. You have dive teams from Montgomery County, Alabama.
5 You've got Jackson County sheriff officers that are there
6 participating in this. And, as I mentioned, you've also
7 got friends and families that are participating in this
8 search as well.
9 Multiple boats are out there looking for him, trying
10 to find him. As I said, a helicopter from up above,
11 looking around. And, again, keep in mind, this is a
12 Saturday. It's December 16th of 2000. And you are going
13 to hear during the evening hours of that, a cold front
14 came through. And it was actually around 70 degrees, a
15 nice balmy winter day in Florida on the 16th; however, a
16 cold front rolls through that evening, and you are going
17 to hear that there's torrential downpours and, of course,
18 searchers aren't able to search during that particular
19 time, and that there's huge downpours and the temperature
20 drops dramatically. It's in the 20s the next day, in the
21 teens. Everybody is bundled up, lots of fires, trying to
22 stay warm, and things along those lines.
23 But what you are going to hear is the following
24 morning they found Mike's boat. This is Mike's hunting
25 boat, duck hunting boat. As you can see, this is what
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 they call a Gheenoe. It's essentially a canoe that's
2 powered by a motor. It's got a long -- what they call a
3 go -devil, I guess it is. It's got a long shaft there
4 with a propeller on the end to get it to move through,
5 and the idea is it can move through these stump areas and
6 very shallow waters.
7 You are going to find -- you are going to hear that
8 they actually found that boat about 75 yards away from
9 where they found the Bronco. It's in another little cove
10 that's in this particular area as to where they found the
11 boat.
12 As I mentioned, it's an extremely extensive search.
13 This originally started out as a search and rescue. They
14 were hoping to find him. You will hear from Scott
15 Dungey, who is a friend of the family, a friend of
16 Mike's, he goes up in the helicopter with FWC and is
17 looking out, trying to find him hopefully on the islands
18 that are in that area. Maybe he got thrown from the boat
19 and was able to swim to safety and was just waiting to be
20 rescued.
21 As I mentioned, weather was a factor in the multiple
22 ways that they do this search. what you are going to
23 hear is unfortunately during that time period, they were
24 not able to find Mike. Mr. Williams is still missing,
25 and reality sets in that at this point it's become a
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 37
1 recovery operation.
2 what you are going to hear is that they bring out
3 search dogs. They are going to have probing poles, and
4 what those are little pvc poles where they take and they
5 push them down and they try and find Mike's body. And
6 they are trying to feel for things that give way a little
7 bit as a body would and not a tree stump, which is
8 obviously much harder. As you are also going to hear,
9 there were divers that were involved in this particular
10 search.
11 The initial search lasted approximately two weeks
12 trying to recover the body, out there every single day,
13 helicopters, dive teams, every single day for two weeks.
14 Scaled back to a degree at that particular time; however,
15 FWC was a constant presence there. They were always
16 looking, did spot checks, as well as friends that were
17 there until -- all the way until February, months later.
18 It's kind of the picture, what we're talking about
19 here, where you've got the Bronco is found, the boat is
20 found, there's a tree stump here, the tree stump here as
21 well as all of the other trees you saw and a ranger's
22 station across the way here.
23 what you are going to hear is that at the beginning
24 of the search, Scott Dungey did the poling thing that
25 we've previously talked about, and he got a little bit of
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 a give way right in this area, right off of that island
2 they thought maybe he had swam to, and you are going to
3 hear they put down bamboo sticks there to try and mark
4 that particular spot. And a great deal of the search
5 actually concentrated in this particular area. There's a
6 hole there, if you will. It's a deeper area. Most of
7 this stuff is about 4 to -- 4- to 8 -feet deep is most of
8 this particular area; however, there's a hole here which
9 is much deeper, 12 -foot range.
10 That's where he felt that initial give away, and
11 that's where they concentrated the search on. And they
12 marked it initially with bamboo sticks and trees, and
13 eventually that transformed into PVC pipes where they put
14 down for a little bit permanent aspect. So this is where
15 the search concentrated on.
16 After all of those search efforts, all of those
17 people that were out there, the constant searching, the
18 helicopters, they found a hat. That's it. Six months
19 afterwards, you are going to hear from Joe Sheffield, who
20 is a person that goes out there and avidly fishes at that
21 particular time, it's summer months now, and he's out
22 there fishing and he comes across a set of waders. And
23 he is going to describe to you what those waders look
24 like.
25 As a result, the search goes back. You are going to
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 hear from Scott Dungey as well as Alton Renew, who is
2 present. They sent a diver down to that particular
3 location, and, again, they are back at that marker, that
4 hole, that 12 -foot hole where they felt the initial push
5 and they mark with the bamboo sticks, ultimately the pvc
6 pipe. And what you are going to hear is not only were
7 there waders found, but there was a jacket found, a
8 flashlight, and a hunting license. That hunting license
9 belonged to Mike Williams.
10 It's an Arkansas hunting license is what was found.
11 These are the items that were found six months later,
12 along with the hunting license. The flashlight that's
13 found, it's one of those Maglites. It was actually still
14 functional.
15 well, what you are going to hear unfortunately at
16 that point, Mike still has not been recovered and the
17 case goes cold. At this point, this is marked as a
18 missing persons. There has been no evidence of any foul
19 play in any way, shape, or form. It's simply a duck
20 hunting/boat accident. A body was never found. There
21 were even theories of alligators possibly had eaten him.
22 Fast forward to 2003, Brian winchester. Brian
23 Winchester is a lifelong friend of Mike Williams. What
24 you are going to hear is that Brian Winchester, Denise
25 Williams, a lady name Kathy Winchester, who is now Kathy
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 Thomas, they all went to school together at North Florida
2 Christian. And you are going to hear that over the
3 years, Brian and Kathy got married, Denise and Mike got
4 marri ed.
5 They had a couple -- did a couple of things
6 together. They would go out and they would go to
7 concerts together. They would go over to each other's
8 houses. They even had kids roughly around the same time.
9 Mike and Denise had a little girl. Brian and Kathy had a
10 little boy. But following all of this, in 2003, Brian
11 Winchester and Kathy Winchester are now getting divorced,
12 and now Brian and Denise, Mike's widow, are now starting
13 to date.
14 There are suspicions and law enforcement takes
15 another look. Now, keep in mind, it's not 2018. we're
16 talking about 2000. okay. we're talking about an
17 investigation, and what we're talking about with records
18 and things along those lines, this is the days of flip
19 phones and Nokia phones. These are the days in which you
20 still got phone calls at your house. You had the
21 answering machine where you had to push the button and
22 listen that you didn't have any messages from all of your
23 friends.
24 Not today. Records back then, people called each
25 other at the house. Home records, the phone records back
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 41
1 then consisted of long distance calls only. Any phone
2 records regarding the local calls, you would get the bill
3 and the bill would say local service, but it never gave
4 you the breakdown of calls like we do now with the cell
5 phones. You had to go back, and the only breakdown you
6 actually had were the long distance calls. So, phone
7 records are much different than they are today.
8 So, we go back to 2000, and we are trying to get
9 this information. Also, texting -- texting was back in
10 the day where there's Nokia phones and flip phones, we
11 didn't have the keyboard. They actually had to type out
12 the text message, AAA, BBB, CCC, in order to get the
13 letters in order to get going.
14 But law enforcement tries to get phone records.
15 It's too late. At this point -- keep in mind, this was
16 not a homicide investigation. It wasn't even a missing
17 person or -- it wasn't a suspicious person's
18 investigation. It was simply a boating accident. At the
19 time of the event, nobody realized that we would get to
20 where we are today. This was a missing person
21 investigation. As a result, it was not a homicide
22 investigation.
23 when they realized there were possible suspicious
24 circumstances and they reclassified it from a missing
25 person to a suspicious situation, phone records had been
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 42
1 purged. They only keep them for so long.
2 what they were able to do is go back and get life
3 insurance policies and life insurance information on Mike
4 williams, and what they found out is that Denise williams
5 was paid out $1.75 million as a result of his death. She
6 was the sole beneficiary. No one else.
7 You are then going to hear in 2005, Brian and Denise
8 get married. At this point, there are definitely
9 suspicions going on, but there's no evidence other than
10 what you've heard and the case goes cold again. At this
11 point, it has been reclassified as a suspicious death or
12 a suspicious person's -- a suspicious case, but nothing
13 has developed.
14 The years between 2012 and 2016, Brian and Denise
15 start to get a separation. They buy a house, $650,000,
16 off of Lake Jackson, but they'd never lived in it. They
17 remain separated for four years. Then 2016, everything
18 changes.
19 In August of 2016, Brian winchester, in the early
20 morning hours, frustrated with the separation, frustrated
21 with the way the marriage is going, frustrated with
22 Denise, crawls into the back of her home at her home. He
23 does so with a firearm, and he orders her to drive
24 somewhere. Denise, you are going to hear, talks him out
25 of going to that particular area and ends up going to a
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 43
1 CVS Pharmacy on the north side of town instead. Somehow
2 she's able to do that. And you are going to hear they
3 have a long conversation about multiple things. And you
4 are going to hear from Brian winchester, and he's going
5 to tell you what they talked about.
6 And what you are going to hear is they separate at
7 that point and Denise talks him into letting her go. And
8 he does, and they are going to talk later on that evening
9 is the plan. The agreement is she is not going to go to
10 law enforcement, but she does.
11 You are actually going to hear that Dave McCranie,
12 who is the brother-in-law of Denise Williams now, is a
13 law enforcement officer at the Tallahassee Police
14 Department, and he gets on the phone with her and talks
15 her through what to do and takes her all the way to the
16 Leon County Sheriff's Department, on the phone with her
17 the whole way.
18 when she gets to the Leon County Sheriff's
19 Department, she reports that she was kidnapped, and now
20 Brian Winchester is charged with kidnapping, aggravated
21 assault with a firearm, and this carries a potential life
22 imprisonment.
23 On October 2017, Brian Winchester gives a statement
24 to law enforcement and confesses to murdering Mike
25 Williams. What he tells us is that prior to the death,
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 in 1997, there's a Sister Hazel concert at the Floyd's
2 Music Shop, which is off of Tennessee Street at the
3 Tennessee Strip, as it's commonly referred to, right
4 there by Florida State university, and there's a Sister
5 Hazel concert. And they were there, and they actually
6 were there with a couple of other people, including Mike,
7 but that's when everything started with them. At that
8 point -- on that day is when they're starting, and the
9 relationship began in 1997, three years prior to Mike's
10 death.
11 He talks about the insurance policies. He tells the
12 law enforcement about these insurance policies.
13 Interestingly enough, one of the insurance polices --
14 there are actually three individual policies, one for $1
15 million, one for $500,000, and one for $250,000.
16 what he tells law enforcement is that the $1 million
17 policy was actually written by Brian Winchester himself.
18 He was an insurance salesperson by trade. And about six
19 months before his disappearance or his murder, that Brian
20 Winchester and Mike Williams talked about getting this
21 particular policy and the amounts associated with it.
22 And Brian is going to tell you the intention is that he's
23 going to get this $1 million policy, and what he's going
24 to do then is allow that $500,000 policy, which was the
25 previous one to lapse, but it doesn't lapse until March
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 45
1 of 2001.
2 what he is also going to tell you is that during
3 that time period of writing that policy, there's
4 discussion between him and Denise about how they can be
5 together. Keep in mind at this point, they've been
6 dating two years behind the backs of Mike and Kathy,
7 their respective spouses.
8 So they talk about it for a long time, different
9 scenarios go. Denise didn't want to be a divorcee.
10 Going to North Florida, there are very religious
11 families. Didn't like the stigmatism or the stigma of
12 being a divorcee.
13 They talked about possibly killing both Mike and
14 Kathy. There was a discussion about going out fishing on
15 the boat offshore and that somehow Mike and Kathy would
16 fall overboard and miraculously Denise and Brian would be
17 the ones that were rescued, and, therefore, be together.
18 Brian says no. He says,I don't want to kill the
19 mother of my child. Apparently killing his best friend
20 is okay, but killing the mother of his child was not. So
21 they settled on killing just Mike. Denise likes the
22 sound of being a widow much more than a divorcee. The
23 widow gets sympathy from the community, the center of the
24 attention, and they talk about how to do it.
25 Go back and talking about the insurance policy, time
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 is of the essence -- I'm sorry. That should have been
2 the $500,000, I guess, expires. At this particular time,
3 you've got the $1 million policy, the $500,000 policy,
4 and the $250,000 policy all in play -- all in play. That
5 $500,000 policy is going to expire in March. So, if they
6 are going to do it, why not do it at the time when they
7 get the most payout? 1.7 sounds better than 1.25.
8 Had to look like an accident. Obviously, can't be
9 caught with a murder; so they had to make it look like an
10 accident. Just so happens, not long before this, Brian
11 went hunting with Mike -- they go hunting regularly.
12 They went up to Arkansas. Remember, we found the
13 Arkansas license in the waders six months later.
14 At that particular time, one of the things that
15 happened is Mike fell out of the boat. Now, it's an
16 interesting situation. whenever these duck hunters go
17 out and hunt, they wear waders. waders are notorious for
18 situations in which the person falls overboard and they
19 fill up the wader with water and you drown. So that's
20 the idea they came up with, that what they're going to do
21 is push him overboard, Mike's going to go -- Brian is
22 going to go hunting with Mike in the morning in the dark,
23 he's going to push him overboard, the waders are going to
24 fill up with water, and he's going to drown.
25 what you hear is that this was actually supposed to
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 47
1 happen the week before. Remember, he went missing -- he
2 was murdered on December 16th, 2000. it was actually
3 supposed to happen the week before. Brian gets a call
4 from Denise calling it off, says, No, backing out of it.
5 During that week, they discuss it. Plans are made
6 between Denise and Mike to go to Apalachicola to
7 celebrate their anniversary. There's even conversations
8 possibly of a new baby that Mike wants. Denise secretly
9 is in a relationship with Brian, doesn't want to go on
10 this trip. The pressure is mounting. Insurance policy
11 is expiring. They talk about it throughout the week, and
12 the plan is back on.
13 So, when they start talking about how to do this
14 thing, they limit the conversations between them. They
15 are mindful of records, they are mindful of getting
16 caught, and they set up their alibis. Denise is supposed
17 to stay home, of course. She has got an 18 -month -old
18 child at this particular time, so she's supposed to stay
19 home, make phone calls so everybody knows where she's at.
20 Brian sets up an alibi where he is actually supposed
21 to go hunting with Kathy -- his wife's father, his
22 father-in-law, and he's supposed to meet up with him and
23 go hunting with him later on that morning. And what the
24 plan is, is that he will go with Mike hunting, commit the
25 murder, Mike drowns, leave him there, drive back and meet
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 Kathy's father for his alibi.
2 So, after they set up all of this and establish what
3 their alibis are going to be, Brian kills him. He's
4 going to tell you how it happened. That he actually
5 followed him to Lake Seminole. They didn't drive
6 together. They met up at a gas station and then actually
7 followed each other there. That was important because he
8 needed two cars there: One to get away, and, of course,
9 one to leave at -- Mike's Bronco there to make it look
10 like Mike had gone out there hunting solo and had been in
11 an accident.
12 So, they get in the boat together. You are going to
13 hear Brian say that he talked Mike into actually putting
14 the waders on. One of the things that some duck hunters
15 do is they won't wear the waders in the boat because of
16 the dangerous aspect of them. But they conversate and he
17 convinces him to put the waders on before they head out.
18 So now they're heading out and they've got the
19 waders in the boat. Brian pushed him over, but it didn't
20 go as planned. Brian is going to tell you what happened
21 next is he looks over there -- and it's dark. It's
22 4:00 in the morning, and I think they've got a little
23 headlamp on for a light. And what he's able to see is he
24 believes that Mike is able to get out of waders and now
25 he's not drowning like he is supposed to. As a result,
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 Brian picks up a shotgun and shoots him in the head.
2 He is going to tell you at that point he knew that
3 the plan of showing -- of making it look like an accident
4 was certainly out of the equation if he leaves the body
5 there; so he takes him and he drags him to the shoreline
6 and he actually drags him to the area right across --
7 there's another landing right there by where that ranger
8 station is that we looked at earlier, and he drags him to
9 shore and he loads him up in the back of his Suburban.
10 At this point, he said he pulled the jacket over his head
11 so that way he doesn't have to look at his friend that he
12 had just killed.
13 At this point, he's taken much longer than he has
14 anticipated and his alibi with his father-in-law was
15 blown. So, instead, he goes all the way home with Mike
16 in the back of his truck and crawls in bed with his wife
17 Kathy, trying to establish an alibi or reestablish an
18 alibi at that point.
19 Later on that day, you are going to hear that he
20 took Mike to Carr Lake and actually buried him. And at
21 this point, October of 2017, we know that Mike is no
22 longer missing. He has been, in fact, been murdered.
23 what you are going to hear, as I said, he took him
24 to Carr Lake. Carr Lake is up here on the north side of
25 Tallahassee, near Ox Bottom, and I think that's
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 50
1 Summerbrooke right in that area, Bannerman Road up there
2 on the north side of Tallahassee. And you are going to
3 hear that he drove him down this road. At the end of
4 this road is a little landing and a boat ramp. Behind
5 these trees is where he buried him.
6 At that time, Carr Lake was actually a lot lower.
7 There was not as much water in there, and he was able to
8 walk into this particular area. It was dry, and he dug a
9 hole and he buried him.
10 You are going to hear that over the years, Carr Lake
11 filled back up with water, and you are going to hear
12 following the confession, Brian Winchester took law
13 enforcement out to the location and showed them where he
14 was buried.
15 Law enforcement is in a very unique situation. How
16 do you find the remains that are underneath the lake?
17 They have to cut away all those trees you just saw. They
18 have to build what they call a cofferdam in order to
19 block the water, and they have to pump the water out.
20 And there they found Mike exactly where Brian said he
21 would be. His boots are still on. Amazingly, the boxers
22 are still bright red.
23 An autopsy is conducted, x-rays are taken, and all
24 of these little dots are all of the birdshot, shot in the
25 head just like Brian said. Mike still had his wedding
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 51
1 ring on.
2 Now, obviously this renews the investigation. Law
3 enforcement starts working it. They go back. They try
4 and verify and refute the things that Brian said, and you
5 are going to have an opportunity that they are
6 witnesses -- to hear from witnesses that saw Brian and
7 Denise together before this went public, before their
8 relationship went public in 2003. of course, the body
9 was found exactly where Brian said it was in the manner
10 in which Brian said it would be.
11 You are going to hear that in December of 2017, law
12 enforcement announced that a body had been found. The
13 body had actually been found a month later -- a month
14 earlier. There was an excavation that was done trying to
15 find the body, as we already looked at.
16 what we also know after that time is that law
17 enforcement was able to secure the source. They went and
18 talked to Kathy winchester, now Kathy Thomas. Now, Kathy
19 has remained friends, very close friends with Denise all
20 of these years. Despite the fact that Denise was now
21 married to her ex-husband, they still remain friends and
22 they talked on a regular basis. But at this point, Kathy
23 agrees to discuss and work with law enforcement.
24 what she tells law enforcement is she actually had
25 sexual relations with Kathy -- I mean, with Denise and
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 52
1 Brian together in Panama City prior to Mike's death.
2 Keep in mind what Brian said. Brian said the
3 relationship started three years prior to Mike's death.
4 what she also says is that shortly after Brian's
5 arrest, Denise sent her a message -- told her to send a
6 message. And what Denise told Kathy was tell Marcus --
7 Marcus is Brian Winchester's father, Marcus Winchester,
8 tell Marcus to tell Brian that I didn't say anything to
9 Florida Department of Law Enforcement. Say anything
10 about what? Why would that be a message that you would
11 have to send?
12 Law enforcement then works with Kathy to try and
13 record conversations between Kathy Winchester, now Kathy
14 Thomas, and Denise, now Winchester. And you are never
15 going to hear flatout admissions. She never says, yeah,
16 I was involved in the murder. You are never going to
17 hear that. But what you are going to hear is that Kathy
18 confronts Denise about that statement on the recording.
19 And she says, I remember you told me that. Denise says,
20 Yeah. Again, why make that statement unless Brian
21 Winchester and her were involved in this all along?
22 And in the end, you will have an opportunity to hear
23 that. We will play that recording for you. In the end,
24 the State is going to ask you to end the 21 years,
25 3 years, plus the 18 years of those sex, lies, and deceit
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 53
1 and find her guilty of these particular crimes. Thank
2 you.
3 THE COURT: Let's take 10 minutes. Let the jury
4 step out.
5 Either side need anything?
6 MR. FUCHS: No, sir.
7 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
8 THE COURT: All right. We will take 10 minutes.
9 (Break taken.)
10 THE COURT: I should have done this earlier. I'm
11 sorry. But does either side have an objection to the
12 instructions that I gave to the jury that we had
13 discussed this morning?
14 MR. FUCHS: No, Your Honor.
15 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
16 THE COURT: All right.
17 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, I have handed the clerk a
18 copy of the PowerPoint presentation I just did for the
19 court record purposes. I don't know how you want to mark
20 that, but it is -- she has that.
21 THE COURT: Why don't we just mark it Court
22 Exhibit 2.
23 THE CLERK: Yes, sir.
24 THE COURT: And Court exhibits, you know, do not go
25 to the jury. That's why you are designating them that
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 54
1 way.
2 Ready for the jury?
3 MR. FUCHS: Yes, Your Honor.
4 MR. WAY: Yes, Your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Let's have the jury, please.
6 MR. WAY: If you recall, Your Honor, Mr. Padovano
7 will be making the opening for the defense.
8 THE COURT: Okay.
9 (Jury in.)
10 MR. FUCHS: Defense may proceed with opening.
11 MR. PADOVANO: Thank you, Your Honor.
12 And, good morning.
13 THE JURORS: Good morning.
14 MR. PADOVANO: Let me begin by saying that there is
15 no dispute about the fact that Mike Williams was
16 murdered. The evidence is going to show beyond any doubt
17 that he was shot in the face and killed by Brian
18 Winchester, a man he thought was his friend.
19 Brian Winchester is not on trial. In fact, he has
20 never even been charged with the murder. He is going to
21 testify here as a witness, and there's an important part
22 of that that you haven't heard yet that I want -- but
23 that will be in evidence, and I want to tell you about
24 it, and that's the fact that he is going to be testifying
25 under a grant of immunity. And what that means in this
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 55
1 particular case, the kind of immunity that was given to
2 him is that he will be able to say -- he will be able to
3 testify as he pleases about this without any fear that
4 the State will be able to use that testimony against him.
5 Now, the immunity agreement is such that the State
6 can't use leads or hints or clues that were developed
7 from that testimony. So, he has not been charged. And I
8 think it's fair from the evidence to conclude that it's
9 not likely he will ever be charged for this murder, but
10 he's here as a witness and he's going to testify that
11 Denise Williams helped him plan the murder.
12 And I will just say right now,I think the fact --
13 the facts that were outlined by Mr. Fuchs about what
14 Mr. Winchester says are fairly accurate. That's what I
15 think he is going to say. That's not the issue you are
16 going to have to decide.
17 The issue you are going to have to decide is whether
18 to believe him. His testimony in this case is -- and I
19 should say also that what -- as -- the facts as Mr. Fuchs
20 related them are pretty much the sum and substance of all
21 of the evidence against Denise williams. There isn't
22 anything else besides that.
23 Brian Winchester's testimony is totally
24 uncorroborated. In plain English, there isn't anything
25 to back it up. You are not going to hear evidence from a
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 56
1 witness who said that he or she saw Denise Williams
2 participating in the planning or the execution of this
3 murder. You are not going to hear any witness talk about
4 DNA evidence or fingerprint evidence. There's no
5 tangible evidence or physical evidence to connect Denise
6 williams to this crime. No confession. No admission.
7 Nothing. All you are going to have to go on is the word
8 of a man who actually committed the murder.
9 Now, of course, you're going to hear testimony about
10 Denise Williams and her family. Denise Williams and Mike
11 Williams knew each other from childhood, and they dated
12 each other through junior high and high school and
13 college. And they maintained a longterm relationship
14 with the Winchesters, Brian winchester and his wife Kathy
15 winchester, who was then Kathy Thomas. The four of them
16 were classmates together at North Florida Christian, and
17 also they were classmates together at Florida State.
18 Now, Mr. and Mrs. Williams got married in 1994, and,
19 by all accounts, they had a happy marriage. The evidence
20 is not going to suggest any reason why Mrs. Williams
21 would have been unhappy with her husband. Mike Williams
22 was a good husband, he was a good father, and he was most
23 certainly a good provider.
24 You are also going to hear testimony from people who
25 knew Mike Williams during this time period: his financial
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 57
1 advisors, his friends, his insurance agents. Ther&s not
2 going to be any proof of any kind that -- no evidence
3 that any of these people heard or saw to suggest that
4 Denise williams was having any sort of marital problem
5 with Mike williams. You are simply not going to see any
6 evidence of that.
7 Now, Mr. and Mrs. Williams had a daughter, Ainsley,
8 who was born in May of 1999, and a few months after that,
9 Mike Williams ended up wanted to investigate the
10 possibility of increasing his insurance. And so he had
11 some conversations about that with a financial advisor, a
12 man named Williams Dick Ganey. Mr. Ganey advised
13 Mr. Williams that he should have at least a million
14 dollars in life insurance. And so Mr. Williams -- and I
15 should point out that Mr. Williams also had a policy that
16 was written by the Winchesters. And I say the
17 Winchesters. Brian Winchester and his father, Marcus
18 Winchester, were insurance agents, and they had sold Mike
19 Williams a policy before, a smaller policy.
20 So, when Mike Williams got this advice from
21 Mr. Ganey, he went back to the Winchesters to buy an
22 additional policy. And Marcus Winchester did, in fact,
23 sell him a $1 million life insurance policy. And at that
24 point, he was -- that policy, together with the two that
25 he already had, he had coverage -- insurance coverage in
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 the amount of $1,750,000. But you are going to hear
2 evidence that this was not too much insurance for a
3 person in Mike williams' financial situation.
4 Mr. williams was employed as a real estate appraiser
5 with the Ketchum Agency, and he was earning $185,000 a
6 year, approximately $185,000 a year.
7 Denise Williams did not -- there's no evidence that
8 Denise Williams participated in any of these discussions
9 about the insurance, and there's no evidence that she did
10 anything to influence her husband Mike to buy this
11 insurance. The only evidence you are going to hear on
12 this point was that the matter was initiated by Mike
13 Williams himself, with the advice of his advisor,
14 Mr. Ganey, his friends, and with the assistance of two
15 insurance agents, Brian Winchester and his father, Marcus
16 Winchester.
17 At this point, I would like to give you a brief
18 synopsis of what Mr. Brian Winchester's version of the
19 murder is, how it came to be. He is going to tell you
20 that he and Mrs. Williams wanted to be together but that
21 she was opposed to divorce for religious and personal
22 reasons. She was not willing to get a divorce from her
23 husband Mike, and so, according to Mr. Winchester, they
24 decided that the only thing they could do was kill him.
25 This is what he is going to tell you.
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 59
1 So, they settled on a plan to have Mr. Winchester go
2 out hunting with Mr. williams, and Mr. Winchester --
3 Mr. Winchester was going to make sure that Mr. Williams
4 was wearing these bib waders. And I don't know how
5 familiar you might be with that, but it keeps the bottom
6 half of your body dry if you are wading in the water.
7 But he was going to make sure that Mr. Williams was
8 wearing these bib waders while he was in the boat, and he
9 was going to wait for a point in time when Mr. Williams
10 would stand up in the boat and then he was going to push
11 him over. And the idea was that water would fill up in
12 the bib waders and Mr. Williams would not be able to keep
13 his body above the surface to get air. That was the
14 plan.
15 So, Mr. Winchester is going to say that Denise --
16 that Denise Williams' role in the plan was to give her
17 wife -- give her husband, I'm sorry, Mike Williams
18 permission to go hunting. And even by his testimony,
19 that's what he says her role was, to give permission,
20 give Mike permission to go hunting.
21 So, they were supposed to go out hunting on
22 December 9th, 2000. But in my recollection of these
23 facts -- not my recollection, but my expectation about
24 these facts is a little bit different from what Mr. Fuchs
25 presented.
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 I think what you are going to hear is that
2 Mr. Williams called Mr. Winchester and said, I can't make
3 it. And then Mr. winchester called Denise Williams and
4 said, Hey, what gives? You know, we were supposed to go
5 out on this. We were supposed to do this thing on this
6 occasion. And at the point Mr. -- Mrs. Williams is
7 reported as saying that she had gotten cold feet, told
8 her husband he couldn't go hunting.
9 So, Mr. Winchester then revived the plan for the
10 following week, and what you are going to hear in that
11 interim would be the week between December 9th and
12 December 16th is that there was very little contact
13 between Brian Winchester and Denise Williams. virtually
14 all of the contact was between Brian Winchester and Mike
15 williams. They set up the plan where to meet. They were
16 going to meet at a gas station near 1-10, and they were
17 going to drive -- Mr. Williams in his truck and boat and
18 trailer and Mr. Winchester in his Suburban -- out to Lake
19 Semi nol e.
20 when they got out there, they launched the boat, got
21 out into the water, Mr. Winchester waited for a point in
22 time when Mr. Williams would stand up, and he pushed him
23 out of the boat.
24 But the plan didn't work out exactly as
25 Mr. Winchester expected it to. Mr. Williams, as it
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 61
1 turned out, was able to get out of the waders and he
2 started swimming back toward the boat. At that point,
3 Mr. Winchester picked up his shotgun and he shot
4 Mr. Williams in the face. The body started to sink.
5 Mr. Winchester grabbed the body and -- by one arm and
6 pulled it up alongside the boat, piloted the boat with
7 his other hand -- this is the story, according to
8 Mr. Winchester -- piloted the boat with his other hand
9 back to the shore.
10 Then he picked up Mr. Williams and loaded him in the
11 back of his Suburban, went home. Later that day,
12 Mr. Winchester went to Walmart and he bought a shovel and
13 a tarp, and he took Mr. Williams' body out to Carr Lake,
14 just off of Meridian Road, and buried him in a shallow
15 grave. Then he went home and he -- went home and he
16 cleaned out his Suburban with some bleach.
17 i preference this account by saying this was
18 Mr. winchester's version of how this murder occurred. I
19 think when you hear the evidence, you are going to have
20 some questions about whether it happened where it -- he
21 said it happened, whether it happened the way he said it
22 happened. But what I think is not in question is that he
23 did, in fact, shoot and kill Mike Williams. And there's
24 no evidence, absolutely no proof that Denise Williams had
25 anything to do with that or that she even knew about it.
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 62
1 Now, Mr. Fuchs mentioned that when Mr. Winchester
2 was -- was finally, I guess, apprehended, he said that he
3 was having an affair with Denise Williams in the three
4 years before the murder was committed. Well, he is going
5 to say that, but you are also going to hear from law
6 enforcement investigators who will tell you that they
7 were not able tofind any evidenceof any affair.
8 Two of themain investigatorsin this case were
9 Tully Sparkman,an investigator forthe state attorney's
10 office, and MikeDevaney, who was atthat time a special
11 agent for the FloridaDepartment ofLaw Enforcement.
12 Both of these men worked on this case extensively, and
13 both of them will tell you that they were not aware of
14 any evidence, other than what Brian Winchester says, that
15 Denise Williams was having an affair with Brian
16 Winchester prior to December of 2000.
17 So, you are not going to see any phone records to
18 verify that Denise Williams was calling Brian Winchester
19 or vice versa. You are not going to see any security
20 camera footage of them going in and out of buildings.
21 You are not going to hear from any witnesses that they
22 saw them in a private setting. You are not going to see
23 credit card receipts for dinners or hotel bills. What
24 you are going to hear and all you are going to hear, all
25 you are going to hear, is that Brian Winchester claims
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 63
1 that he was having an affair with Denise Williams.
2 Now, Brian winchester was, of course, a friend of
3 Denise williams and also with her husband Mike williams.
4 He and his wife Kathy went out with Brian and Denise on
5 many occasions, and there was some occasions, the
6 evidence will show, where Brian and his wife Kathy and
7 Denise went out, just the three of them.
8 I think if anything, the evidence is going to show
9 that the relationship between these parties, the
10 relationship that Denise Williams had with Kathy
11 Winchester was much closer than the one that she had with
12 her husband Brian. Kathy and Denise were close friends
13 in the years -- well, before and after Mike Williams
14 disappeared, and they continued to be close friends for
15 many years after that.
16 we are going to present some evidence in this case
17 that is going to flatly contradict what Mr. Winchester
18 says, that his claim -- his claim that he was having an
19 affair with Denise Williams and that they cooked up this
20 plan to kill Denise's husband so that they could be
21 together. The evidence to contradict that, two main
22 things -- and I'm going to go through it with you.
23 One of the main things is that there is strong
24 evidence in this case that Brian Winchester tried very
25 hard to stay married to his own wife after the murder,
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 and Denise williams had a serious relationship with
2 another man after the murder.
3 So, after 2000, I think in -- several years after
4 the disappearance of Mr. williams -- well, actually,
5 Kathy Winchester and her husband Brian were having some
6 marital trouble all along pretty much,I think starting
7 even before the disappearance of Mike Williams.
8 But, anyway, a few years after that disappearance,
9 they were in more serious marital difficulty. I guess
10 facing a divorce. And you are going to hear evidence
11 that Brian Winchester tried very, very hard to reconcile
12 so that he could stay with his wife, Kathy Winchester.
13 But Kathy Winchester was bent on getting a divorce. And
14 she wanted to go through it -- through with it, and so
15 they got divorced.
16 she's going to tell you that at the final hearing,
17 final divorce hearing, Brian winchester, the man who was
18 supposed to have done this to be with Denise, was sitting
19 in the back of the room sobbing, begging her, begging her
20 not to go through with the divorce. He wanted to stay
21 married to her. We're going to ask him about that.
22 We're going to ask him to explain that.
23 And the other thing I mentioned is that Denise
24 Williams had a relationship with another man. That's a
25 man named Charles Bunker. You will hear from him too.
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 65
1 That started a couple of years after her husband
2 disappeared. Mr. Bunker was a coworker, and that
3 relationship developed, as many do, sort of in more of a
4 friend way to begin with. But then as it went along, it
5 got more serious, and, you know, they had some things in
6 common.
7 Mr. Bunker was a single parent. He was caring for a
8 child and so was Denise. But during the course of this
9 relationship, there were occasions where Brian Winchester
10 threatened Mr. Bunker, and you are going to hear about
11 that.
12 On one occasion, Mr. Bunker went with Denise to
13 Atlanta -- on a trip to Atlanta, and Mr. Winchester
14 showed up unexpectedly at their hotel room and threatened
15 them both. Mr. Williams -- I mean, Denise Williams tried
16 to smooth things out with him to calm him down. But this
17 went on for some time, and eventually the relationship
18 between Charles Bunker and Denise Williams came to an
19 end.
20 Now, Mrs. Williams did eventually marry Brian
21 Winchester, but that was five years later, five years
22 after her husband disappeared, and the evidence that you
23 are going to hear will put this in the proper context.
24 She knew Mr. Winchester from high school and college.
25 They had been friends for many years. Mr. Winchester's
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 son, Stafford, was about the same age as Mrs. Williams'
2 daughter, Ainsley. They were friends.
3 Before that, before the marriage, Denise Williams
4 laid down some very strict rules. Brian winchester had
5 to be baptized. In fact, he was. Brian winchester had
6 to go through a yearlong premarital program at
7 Mrs. winchester's church. These were conditions that
8 Denise williams insisted on before she married Brian
9 winchester.
10 Now, that marriage didn't end well. They separated
11 in 2012 at Mrs. williams' insistence. And in 2015, Mr.
12 -- Denise Williams filed for divorce. There were many,
13 many efforts on the part of Brian Winchester to save his
14 marriage with now Denise williams. He couldn't do that,
15 and there came a point in time where she wasn't speaking
16 to him. So, in a final desperate attempt to save his
17 marriage, he decided that he would kidnap Mrs. Williams.
18 On the morning of August 15th, 2016, about 2:30 in
19 the morning, he climbed into the back of her suv, armed
20 with a gun -- I mean, the cargo area of the Suv armed
21 with a gun, waiting for her to get up to go to work. She
22 did eventually get up and go to work, get in the car, and
23 when she realized that he was in the car, she screamed.
24 Now, Mr. Winchester is going to say that he only
25 wanted to talk to Denise williams. He only wanted to try
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 67
1 to reconcile. But he had a handgun, and you should also
2 know that he had a tarp and two containers of bleach in
3 the cargo area. He put them there. They weren't in the
4 Suburban. He put them there, but he says he only wanted
5 to talk to her.
6 Now, fortunately, she was able to calm him down with
7 the promise -- I guess that they were going to try to
8 work things out. She had no intention of doing that,
9 none whatsoever. She went straight to the police, and he
10 was arrested for armed kidnapping.
11 And we're going to present evidence in this case to
12 show you that Mr. Winchester has a motive to lie to you,
13 that he has a motive to make up this accusation against
14 Mrs. Williams. He didn't mention anything about her
15 alleged participation in this murder until after he
16 realized that he was facing a life sentence for
17 kidnapping. He didn't mention it until after he realized
18 that Mrs. Williams was going to go into court and ask for
19 a life sentence, and at that point he made an agreement
20 with the State for immunity. And we're going to talk
21 about that, and we're going to give you all of the
22 details about that in the trial.
23 But just a thumbnail sketch of it, the agreement for
24 immunity essentially ensured that Mr. Winchester would
25 not get a life sentence or that the State wouldn't ask
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 for a life sentence on the charge of kidnapping, and it
2 also ensured -- guaranteed that anything he said about
3 the disappearance of Mike williams could never be used
4 against him. So, that is what he gained by the
5 agreement. In return, of course, he is going to give
6 testimony, and the testimony is going to give -- it's
7 going to be pretty much what Mr. Fuchs outlined about
8 Denise Williams.
9 There's one other -- there's one other aspect of
10 this that goes to his motive, and I want to discuss it
11 with you. It was not only a desire to get a much lighter
12 sentence or to get off of a sentence on the murder case
13 altogether for that matter, but it was also a sense of
14 revenge, and there's evidence of that that you are going
15 to hear.
16 we're going to ask Mr. Williams -- Mr. Winchester,
17 I'm sorry, why he would make a statement like this
18 against Mrs. Williams. And I expect him to say that he
19 felt as though Mrs. Williams threw him under the bus by
20 turning him in for kidnapping and that he should now
21 throw her under the bus. This is what I expect him to
22 tell you.
23 So, that's the case before you. You are going to
24 hear about the multiple investigations in this case. You
25 are going to hear about the lives of all of these
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 witnesses over the last 18 years. what you are not going
2 to hear is any credible evidence that Denise williams
3 participated in this murder. On that point, you are
4 going to have to rely enti rely on the word of a murderer
5 and a convicted felon.
6 Now, we're going to have a chance to come back up
7 and speak to you again at the close of all of the
8 evidence in the case. By then you are going to have more
9 than a reasonable doubt about the guilt of Denise
10 williams, and we are going to ask you then to find her
11 not guilty. Thank you.
12 THE COURT: Call your first witness, Mr. Fuchs.
13 MR. FUCHS: Yes, Your Honor. The State would call
14 Greg Morris.
15 THE COURT: If you would face the clerk and be sworn
16 please, sir.
17 whereupon,
18 GREG MORRIS
19 was called as a witness, having been first duly sworn, was
20 examined and testified as follows:
21 THE COURT: Have a seat and slide up to the
22 microphone please, sir.
23 You may proceed.
24 MR. FUCHS: Thank you, Your Honor.
25 DIRECT EXAMINATION
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 70
1 BY MR. FUCHS:
2 Q Good morning, sir.
3 A Good morning.
4 Q Can you please introduce yourself to the jurors?
5 A My name is Greg Morris.
6 Q Okay. And, Mr. Morris, are you currently employed?
7 A No. I'm retired.
8 Q okay. where are you retired from?
9 A Fish and wildlife.
10 Q what is Fish and wildlife?
11 A Florida Fish and wildlife Commission.
12 Q Okay. And what does that agency do?
13 A we patrol the woods and waters of the State.
14 Q okay. when you say you patrol, are you law
15 enforcement?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Or,I guess, law enforcement before you retired?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Okay. How long did you work with FWC?
20 A Twenty-seven years.
21 Q Okay. And when you say you patrolled the woods and
22 waters of the state, what exactly did you do?
23 A we checked for hunting and fishing violations,
24 boating safety issues, anything that occurs on the woods or
25 water that is regulated by the State.
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 71
1 Q Okay. And when you worked with FWC, specifically
2 I'm talking about in December of 2000, where were you
3 assi gned?
4 A I was patrolling in the woods areas (sic) of Jackson
5 County on that day, and I received a call from our dispatcher
6 in reference to an overdue duck hunter on Lake Seminole.
7 Q Okay. Do you remember about what time of day it was
8 that you got that call?
9 A It was about 2:30 in the afternoon.
10 Q So, in the afternoon hours?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q Okay. Based upon that call -- first of all, let's
13 talk about this. where is Lake Seminole?
14 A Lake Seminole is in -- north of Sneads, Florida.
15 And this call was in reference to an area that was a little
16 boat launch area north of Sneads on River Road.
17 Q okay. Is that on the east side or the west side of
18 Lake Seminole?
19 A That would be the west side of Lake Seminole.
20 Q okay. And when you say Sneads, where is that in
21 relation to Tallahassee?
22 A Sneads is about 60 miles to the west of Tallahassee.
23 Q okay. And, based upon the call that you received,
24 did you respond to that area?
25 A Yes.
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 72
1 Q Okay.
2 A I responded to that area and contacted a Mr. Merrell
3 at that location.
4 Q okay. And were you given the name of the person
5 that you were -- supposedly who was overdue?
6 A Not by dispatch. Dispatch just advised me to meet a
7 gentleman at the boat launch area north of Sneads.
8 Q Okay. And that would be Mr. Merrell?
9 A That was Mr. Merrell, yes.
10 Q Did you later determine -- or were you able to later
11 determine who it was you were looking for?
12 A Yes. In my conversation with Mr. Merrell, he
13 explained to me that his son-in-law, Mike williams, had gone
14 duck hunting that morning and had failed to return when he was
15 expected back home.
16 Q okay. when you arrived at that area where
17 Mr. Merrell was at, did you see anything there? vehicles,
18 boats, anything like that?
19 A Yes. Besides Mr. MerrelVs vehicle, there was a
20 Ford Bronco there with a boat trailer hooked behind it. And
21 Mr. Merrell indicated to me that that was Mike williams'
22 vehicle.
23 Q okay. At the time, was there any boat on that
24 trailer?
25
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 73
1 Q Okay. And, based upon finding that, what did you
2 next do?
3 A I got -- I did not have a boat with me at the time,
4 so I got Mr. Merrell to get in my vehicle, my patrol vehicle,
5 and we went around to various vantage points on the lake that
6 we could access by vehicle and did a visual search with
7 binoculars to see if we could see any sign of the missing
8 person.
9 Q Okay. And were you able to find a sign of the
10 missing person?
11 A No, we did not see any sign of him.
12 MR. FUCHS: Okay. May I approach the witness, Your
13 Honor?
14 THE COURT: You may.
15 BY MR. FUCHS:
16 Q I'm showing you what has been previously marked as
17 State's Exhibit 1A through D, Composite. I would ask you to
18 take a look at these without showing it to the jury, please.
19 Do you recognize those items?
20 A I recognize the Ford Bronco and the trailer as the
21 one that was at the scene on that day.
22 Q okay. And I believe those are the photographs that
23 are depicted in State's Exhibit A and B,1A and B; correct?
24 A Correct.
25 Q okay.
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 74
1 THE COURT: Before you show them to the jury,
2 though, we need to offer them into evidence.
3 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir. I was turning it on while I
4 was doing that.
5 Your Honor, at this time, I would move State's
6 Exhibit 1A through D into evidence.
7 THE COURT: Any objection?
8 MR. WAY: No objection, Your Honor.
9 THE COURT: 1A through D will be admitted.
10 (State's Composite/Exhibit Nos. 1A - 1D received in
11 evidence.)
12 MR. FUCHS: And permission to show?
13 THE COURT: You may.
14 MR. FUCHS: There we go.
15 BY MR. FUCHS:
16 Q This is a photograph of the Bronco that you saw on
17 that day?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And isthishow you found it on that day?
20 A Excuseme?
21 Q Is thishowyou found it?
22 A Yes.
23 Q It hadnotbeen moved?
24 A No.
25 Q okay. SameBronco?
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 75
1 A Yes.
2 Q Okay. what did you next do after -- you said you
3 went out and you looked for vantage points to try and find the
4 person. what did you next do?
5 A We -- Mr. Merrell and I returned to the boat launch
6 area, and it was getting late, getting close to dark and the
7 weather was starting to turn bad. Mr. Merrell decided that he
8 would go home and return the next day if he had not heard
9 anything from the missing person during the night.
10 And I called my supervisor, Lieutenant Roger
11 Jackson, and advised him that we had a missing person on Lake
12 Seminole, and a short time later he arrived in the area.
13 Q Okay. You said something about the weather, it
14 turned bad. what do you mean?
15 A There was a cold front coming through, and a really
16 torrential downpour of rain occurred that night while we were
17 there, while Lieutenant Jackson and I were there at the
18 landing, and then it turned off really cold. The wind started
19 blowing and really cold after that.
20 Q okay. well, let's back up then, if we can, to
21 December 16th, 2000. So the day that you are notified of the
22 missing person. what was the weather like on that day?
23 A It was probably in the 70s, somewhat overcast. It
24 changed very quickly after that storm came through.
25 Q okay. And that storm came through over the evening
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 76
1 hours?
2 A Correct, right after dark.
3 Q Okay. And what was the weather like after that?
4 A It was windy and turning much colder by the minute
5 and --
6 Q You said something about rain, torrential rain.
7 what do you mean by that?
8 A It was a heavy downpour of rain, similar to what
9 we've had in the last weekend or so.
10 Q Okay. The -- because of the weather, was there any
11 searches that were conducted in that evening -- in that
12 nighttime hour?
13 A Not to my knowledge. Lieutenant Jackson sent me
14 home after he and i discussed what I had done as far as
15 meeting with Mr. Merrell. And I had been on the dayshift that
16 day, and so he sent me home to rest and told me to return the
17 next day. And I don't know, honestly, if he stayed or not.
18 Q okay. Did you return the next day?
19 A Yes, I did.
20 Q okay. And the next day, had -- you'd mentioned the
21 weather had changed. what did you do the next day?
22 A It was very cold the next morning, probably in the
23 30s, and the wind was blowing.
24 Q okay. And did you help conduct any searches?
25 A Yes.
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 77
1 Q Okay.
2 A we started launching boats and looking in the area,
3 and I helped on some of the boats.
4 Q okay. And when you say "we," what do you mean?
5 A Myself and other officers with Fish and wildlife,
6 and there were some sheriff's department people there and some
7 private citizens.
8 Q Okay. And did you -- to your knowledge, while you
9 were there, how long were you on scene searching?
10 A Excuse me?
11 Q How long were you there searching?
12 A The first day I was probably there for maybe six or
13 seven hours. And after that, I was pretty much designated as
14 the officer to handle the county while this was going on
15 because I was on the dayshift. And so I was there back and
16 forth a few days after that during the search, but I was also
17 answering complaints and things throughout the county while
18 the search was going on.
19 Q And while you participated in the search, were you
20 able to find anything?
21 A No.
22 MR. FUCHS: I have no further questions.
23 THE COURT: Cross.
24 CROSS EXAMINATION
25 BY MR. WAY:
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 Q Good morning, Mr. Morris.
2 A Good morning.
3 Q On December 16th, 2000, what time would you have
4 gone on shift in Jackson county?
5 A Probably around 7:00 a.m.
6 Q And when you went on shift, were you advised or did
7 you learn that there might be inclement weather coming in in
8 the afternoon?
9 A No,I didn't-- I wasn'tadvised of it, no.
10 Q Didyou makeany checkor anything of that nature?
11 A No.
12 Q Okay. Is it typical sometimes that the weather will
13 change very dramatically up there on Lake Seminole?
14 A Yes.
15 Q In your -- you described River Road, which is on the
16 west side of Lake Seminole. That is a two-lane paved road;
17 correct?
18 A That's correct.
19 Q And the area where you met up with Mr. Merrell is
20 very near a game check station; is that correct?
21 A That is correct.
22 Q what is a game check station?
23 A A game check station -- we have several different
24 types of wildlife management areas in the state, and this
25 particular management area is called Apalachee Management
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 79
1 Area. It is a Type 1 Management Area, which means that
2 hunters that come and go from that area must pass through that
3 check station in order to entrance and exit the area. So
4 that's why the check station is there. And they also conduct
5 checks of game. If a person has taken any game, that's where
6 they'd check it in.
7 Q Is that check station manned by a representative of
8 FWC?
9 A usually by a biologist,yes, sir.
10 Q On December 16th, 2000,there was someonemanning
11 that gamestation. Do you recallthat?
12 A Not when I was there, therewas not. They do not
13 have aregular schedule. I didn't-- I did notencounter a
14 person. Lieutenant Jackson and Iwent there toget out of the
15 rain afterdark, and there was noone there atthat time.
16 Q Do you know if Mr. Merrellhad come incontact with
17 a femalebiologist from that gamestation?
18 A I do not know. He didn'tadvise me.
19 Q But it could be possiblethere wouldhave been
20 someonethere?
21 MR. FUCHS: Objection. Speculation.
22 THE WITNESS: It's possible there was someone there
23 earlier in the day, yes, sir.
24 THE COURT: Overruled.
25 BY MR. WAY:
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 Q The distance from that game station to the location
2 where you and Mr. Merrell discovered the boat and trailer,
3 approximately how far would that be?
4 A About 200 -yards.
5 Q would it have been almost the visual ability to see
6 from one area to the other?
7 A Except for the fact that the boat launch area was in
8 some trees and you couldn't see for the trees. But, you know,
9 you would look down the highway. You could see down the
10 highway that far. But the boat launch area was inside of some
11 trees, and you would not be able to see anything that was
12 parked at that area from the check station because it was
13 hidden by the trees.
14 Q And in December, it would have been the wintertime;
15 correct?
16 A (Nods head.)
17 Q So the foliage would have been less dense than
18 typical?
19 A Right. Mostly pine trees there, though.
20 Q The area where the boat launch was, how far back
21 from River Road were we talking about here, 10, 15 yards,
22 100 --
23 A To the -- to the water's edge?
24 Q Yes, sir.
25 A Probably 20 yards.
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 Q So, not a very far distance from the road?
2 A No.
3 Q The -- when you went on scene and you made contact
4 with Mr. Merrell, you had indicated that he was looking for
5 his son-in-law.
6 A Correct.
7 Q So, you understood that to be -- that Mr. Merrell
8 was Denise williams' father?
9 A I did not know Denise Williams. All he told me was
10 his son-in-law, Mike williams. He didn't mention her.
11 Q And was Mr. Merrell concerned?
12 A Yes.
13 Q was he very concerned?
14 A Yes.
15 MR. WAY: Nothing further, Your Honor.
16 THE COURT: Redirect?
17 MR. FUCHS: No, Your Honor.
18 THE COURT: All right. Any juror have a question of
19 this witness? If so, just raise your hand. All right,
20 good. You can step down.
21 Do we need to keep this witness any further?
22 MR. FUCHS: He could be released, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: Does the defense need him for any
24 reason?
25 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor. He may be released.
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 THE COURT: You are excused. Thank you for being
2 here.
3 Call your next witness.
4 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, at this time, the State
5 would call Scott Dungey. This is the perpetuated
6 testimony we have previously talked about.
7 THE COURT: All right. At this point in time,
8 they're going to present a video of some testimony. This
9 was previously perpetuated by agreement between the
10 parties. You should consider this just like you would
11 any live testimony. we just had a circumstance where it
12 was difficult for the witness to be here; so that's why
13 it's being presented by video.
14 You may proceed, Mr. Fuchs.
15 MR. FUCHS: And, Your Honor, if I could ask the
16 bailiff to distribute the transcripts of this.
17 THE COURT: All right. Have we marked those as
18 Court's Exhibit 1A?
19 MR. FUCHS: I have. I have --
20 THE COURT: Hold on a second. Wait a minute, Jay.
21 Is there an objection to using the transcript with
22 this, Mr. Way?
23 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
24 THE COURT: All right, you may.
25 He is going to distribute a transcript to you, but
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 the testimony is what you see and hear on the video. The
2 transcripts are given to you just to assist you in
3 following that, but if there's any difference between
4 what you hear in the witness's testimony and what you see
5 in the transcript, you should rely upon what you see and
6 hear from the witness's testimony.
7 MR. FUCHS: I'm sorry, Your Honor. I'm having --
8 for some reason, it's on my screen but not --
9 THE COURT: Let me -- while he is playing with that,
10 let me -- okay, go ahead.
11 MR. FUCHS: Did you want to --
12 THE COURT: Go ahead.
13 MR. FUCHS: Okay.
14 (video played in open court as follows:)
15 THE COURT REPORTER: Please raise your right hand.
16 whereupon,
17 SCOTT DUNGEY
18 was called as a witness, having been first duly sworn, was
19 examined and testified as follows:
20 DIRECT EXAMINATION
21 BY MR. ROGERS:
22 Q All right. Sir, can you please state and spell your
23 name for the record?
24 A Scott Dungey, D -U -N -G -E -Y.
25 Q Mr. Dungey, how -- what do you do for a living right
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 now?
2 A I have a computer consulting business here in town.
3 Q Okay. How long have you been doing that?
4 A Twenty-three years.
5 Q were you raised up in Tallahassee?
6 A Moved here in 1981; so I have been here the majority
7 of my life.
8 Q i want to take you back to some people that you may
9 or may not know.
10 Do you know who a Jerry Michael Williams is?
11 A Ido.
12 Q And how do you know him?
13 A we went to high school together, played football
14 together, and we're -- we're very close friends.
15 Q which high school did you go to?
16 A North Florida Christian.
17 Q were you all in the same class or --
18 A Yes.
19 Q All right. Do you know a Brian Winchester?
20 A Ido.
21 Q Tell me about the nature of your relationship with
22 Mr. Winchester.
23 A He and Mike and Denise were -- and myself were all
24 in the same, same class together at North Florida. Brian and
25 I and Mike, during high school, would do a lot of waterskiing
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 together. Brian didn't play football and Mike and I did; so,
2 you know, we did -- the things that Brian and I and Mike did
3 were more outdoors related.
4 Q Okay. And you also mentioned Denise. Is that
5 Denise williams?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And what was her name in high school?
8 A Denise Merrell.
9 Q How well did you know Ms. Williams?
10 A well, we were, you know -- I think our graduating
11 class only had 80 people; so everybody knew everybody at North
12 Florida. we all started there in ninth grade or earlier and
13 all grew up together.
14 Q Did you continue to hang out with these people after
15 you graduated?
16 A Yes, probably more so after high school than during
17 high school.
18 Q of the group that we just talked about, who were you
19 closest friends with?
20 A Mike. Mike was one of my closest friends.
21 Q okay. At some point, Mike Williams went missing?
22 A uh-huh.
23 Q Can you describe how you became aware of that?
24 A It was early one Sunday morning, a very cold Sunday
25 morning, and I got -- I was -- I got a call --
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 MR. WAY: Objection.
2 BY MR. ROGERS:
3 Q Early on a Sunday morning, you received a phone
4 call?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And you were aware after that that Mike williams was
7 missing?
8 A Yes.
9 Q was that in December of 2000?
10 A Yes, it was.
11 Q All right. Once you were aware that Mike Williams
12 was missing, where did you go?
13 A I immediately called my father-in-law, whose brother
14 was the head of Game and Fresh Water Commission. And he
15 called his brother, and we immediately -- my father-in-law and
16 myself immediately got in the car and drove over to the lake.
17 Q which lake?
18 A Lake Seminole.
19 Q okay. where is that?
20 A North of Sneads.
21 Q okay. So west --
22 A About an hour from here.
23 Q About an hour west from Tallahassee?
24 A Correct.
25 Q Describe what the weather was like that day when you
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 got out to Lake Seminole.
2 A It was -- it had -- the day before it was in the
3 70s, and then that night it had dropped down to 12 degrees.
4 will never forget it. It was -- it was bitterly cold. The
5 wind was blowing 30, 40 miles an hour. One of the coldest
6 days we've had in Tallahassee in a long time.
7 Q Okay. when you got out to Lake Seminole, what did
8 you see when you got out there?
9 A we got there pretty early. Got there probably about
10 8:00 or 8:30. There was a few folks out there, but within the
11 first 30, 40 minutes, a number of law enforcement, Game and
12 Fresh Commission officers showed up. There was numerous
13 boats. A helicopter was sent out there. There was a
14 pretty -- a pretty large contingent of law enforcement
15 officers as well as friends and family looking as well.
16 Q Do you have an idea of how many -- the number of
17 people that were out there?
18 A The first day through probably the first two weeks
19 there was no less than 20 to 25 people out there every day for
20 two weeks.
21 Q okay. was that every day, Monday through Sunday?
22 A Pretty much, yeah, for the first -- you know, up
23 until about Christmas. And then after Christmas, it started
24 tailing off.
25 Q How often were you out there?
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 A I was there every day until roughly February.
2 Q okay. You never missed a day that you recall?
3 A No.
4 Q Once you got out there, were you aware of a boat
5 that was found?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Okay. Can you describe the circumstances of that?
8 A The -- as i was told, they found the hunting boat
9 that Mike was in, and it had blown up against the, I guess,
10 west shore. They found it pretty quickly when the game
11 wardens had first arrived.
12 Q And were you also aware of a vehicle that was found?
13 A Yes. It was Mike's Bronco.
14 Q were you aware -- how do you know that it was Mike's
15 B ronco?
16 A I spent a lot of time in it riding with him to go
17 fishing and hunting.
18 Q Mr. Dungey, I'm going to show you four photographs
19 that I have marked 1A, 1B, ic, and 1D. The question for all
20 of these, are they fair and accurate depictions of both the
21 Bronco and the boat?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 MR. WAY: For the record, defense counsel has
24 reviewed the photographs prior to them being shown to the
25 witness.
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 BY MR. ROGERS:
2 Q i want to talk to you about how the search was
3 conducted. were you out on the water?
4 A Yes, every day.
5 Q Okay. what did you do? How do you go about
6 searching for someone on water?
7 A well, the first day, a Game and Fish helicopter was
8 there, and around 10:00 that morning I got in the helicopter
9 and flew around the area just seeing if we could load any --
10 locate anything. You know, my hope was that he had fallen out
11 of the boat and swam to the other side of the island and, you
12 know, maybe got some hyperthermia and was passed out. So we
13 really focused on an island area where, you know, we hoped
14 that he might have -- that he might be still alive.
15 And that's -- as we flew around up -- around the
16 helicopter -- in the helicopter that day, that's when I
17 noticed, you know, all of the helicopters -- or, I'm sorry --
18 all of the alligators that were swimming around, even though
19 it was cold, all around the boats that people couldn't see.
20 After that, i spent all of the time in one of the boats poling
21 for Mike's body with the PVC pipes.
22 Q All right. So, you call that "poling." Can you
23 describe that what means?
24 A The lake had a -- it was a flooded pecan orchard; so
25 most of the lake was -- was only four or five feet deep other
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 than in a couple of spots. There was a solid layer of
2 hydrilla.
3 Q what's hydrilla?
4 A it's a weed that grows in the -- in these lakes, I
5 guess is the best -- not being a -- not being a biologist, I
6 can't even give you an exact answer.
7 Q Sure. So, does the hydrilla make it harder or
8 easier to search?
9 A Next to impossible. It's about two inches below the
10 water. It was a solid layer of hydrilla, so you couldn't see
11 down below. And then below the hydrilla, it has roots. And
12 the best way I could describe it is looks like you are trying
13 to look through a bamboo forest. You just can't -- you can't
14 see anything.
15 Q So you mentioned some PVC poles. what did you use
16 those poles for?
17 A we went and got 20 or 30 Pvc poles. we capped them
18 off, and we would very methodically -- we had probably 10 or
19 12 boats on the east side of the lake, and we all started
20 working our way towards the west side. And we would, you
21 know -- i guess in a search grid, we would methodically go up
22 and down each boat and would use the vc poles to pole to see
23 if we would, you know, hit -- hit Mike's body.
24 Q okay. was there one area that the search started to
25 concentrate on?
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 91
1 A It was,i believe, the first or second day I was out
2 there. I was in one of the boats with one of the game
3 officers, and I hit something that seemed porous and gave
4 back. It didn't feel like a root or a tree or anything like
5 that. So I just kind of stopped, froze, and asked the game
6 warden to come over and take over, as I just -- I didn't want
7 to be to the one -- if that was Mike's body,I didn't want to
8 go any further.
9 So, he came to the front of the boat and started
10 poling all around the area, thinking maybe I had hit an arm or
11 a leg, and he was trying to hit something bigger. Never,
12 never really hit anything else from there. But this -- this
13 area was a spot that we continued to go back to frequently.
14 Q Can you describe that area? was it deeper than the
15 rest of the lake?
16 A Yes. The rest of the lake was, you know, probably
17 four or five, at most six feet deep, where if Mike fell out,
18 he was probably standing up. And this was towards the south
19 end of the lake, right before you get to the bigger, the
20 bigger water. And there were a lot of submerged stumps right
21 around this area, and it was probably 8 to 10, 12 feet deep,
22 about the size of this courtroom. And so it -- you know, it
23 made logical sense that if they're -- if he was in that lake,
24 that's where he would be, would be in this hole.
25 Q So further search efforts started to concentrate in
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 92
1 that area; is that right?
2 A Yeah. we -- we marked that spot that I had hit
3 something the first day with some bamboo shoots. And then
4 over the next couple of weeks, there was two or three
5 different organizations that had cadaver dogs. we would
6 always take them to that same spot. The dogs would bark, they
7 would make some markings, you know, as if there was something
8 there, but never -- we never could identify anything. we even
9 had an Army corps of Engineer person that was out there that
10 had a dry suit, and he -- he went down one morning when it
11 was -- you know, the water was probably 40 degrees by that
12 point. He didn't have a mask on because you couldn't see
13 anything. So he flailed around and tried to see if he could
14 hit a body or hit a portion of a body. He didn't hit anything
15 either.
16 Q i wanted to take youback to -- you mentioned all of
17 the peoplethatwere out thereand the Army Corps of Engineers
18 diver. Did youever see BrianWinchester at the lake?
19 A I sawBrian, I believe,one time.
20 Q okay. Did you eversee Denise Williams at the lake?
21 A I -- Idon't recallseeing Denise.
22 Q I wantto go back. At some point, was anything
23 found inthat areathat you wereconcentrating on?
24 A Duringthat initialsearch?
25 Q Let'sstart with theinitial search.
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 93
1 A No.
2 Q Okay. Later was there?
3 A About six months later, I received a call that the
4 waders had popped up basically at the exact same spot that I
5 had marked with the bamboo shoots.
6 Q Okay. Did you come back out to the lake at that
7 point?
8 A Yes. The next day, myself and Lamar English and Kip
9 Bembry went back out there. And Lamar is a diver and has
10 recovered numerous bodies for various organizations, and --
11 MR. WAY: Objection.
12 BY MR. ROGERS:
13 Q So you went back out to the lake. This is now six
14 months after the initial search?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q what did you see happen that day?
17 A Lamar put a -- well, first, now being summer, the
18 hydrilla was even worse, much worse, and so Lamar didn't even
19 use a dive mask because you just couldn't see. So he simply
20 put on a small dive tank and we tied a rope to his waist. And
21 it was so thick that we had to use some of the PVC poles from
22 shore and put them three to four feet apart, just so he could
23 pull himself along the bottom. So he just closed his eyes and
24 would feel around on the bottom to see if he could find
25 anything.
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 Q Did you see anything come up from the bottom of the
2 lake?
3 A within probably five minutes of him going down and
4 within five feet of these bamboo shoot markings, he came up
5 and handed me a camouflage hunting jacket. The sleeve was --
6 one sleeve was turned inside out like if somebody was trying
7 to get it off.
8 MR. WAY: Objection.
9 BY MR. ROGERS:
10 Q Can you also continue to describe the condition of
11 the hunting jacket?
12 A It was in -- surprisingly, it was in great shape.
13 And when i --I put my hand in the pocket and pulled out his
14 hunting license, and it was -- it said Mike Williams on it.
15 It was very, very clear.
16 At the time, i didn't think anything of it. I knew,
17 you know, the duck hunters have a special laminated license
18 because they are in the cold and wet a lot; so I just didn't
19 think anything of it at the time. But it was very clear that
20 it said Mike Williams.
21 Q Was anything else pulled up from the bottom of the
22 lake that day?
23 A Immediately after that, there was a small -- what
24 they call a mag flashlight that -- that Lamar handed to me as
25 well.
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 95
1 Q And what was its condition?
2 A It was excellent. It actually worked. You know, I
3 was -- my first comment was I needed to get one of these. You
4 know, i was thinking it had been six months and for it to
5 continue to work after being in the water six months, you
6 know, it was pretty amazing.
7 Q i want to go back. I showed you some photographs of
8 the boat and Mike's Bronco. Those obviously left the landing
9 at some point. Do you know where they went after that?
10 A I believe, as I was told, the --
11 MR. WAY: Objection.
12 BY MR. ROGERS:
13 Q So, without saying what someone else told you, are
14 you personally aware of where they went?
15 A Yes, I am.
16 Q where did they go?
17 A Marcus Winchester's house.
18 Q were they -- either one of them in your possession
19 at any point?
20 A No. I had Mike's offshore boat at my house.
21 Q i want to go back to where the waders and the
22 flashlight and the hunting jacket were pulled out of the lake.
23 where was that in relationship to the markers, the bamboo
24 markers that you had laid previously?
25 A within five feet.
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 (Recording stopped.)
2 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, I apologize. we -- for some
3 reason, this was not transferred over and complete. we
4 had the cross-examination. Can I ask for a five-minute
5 break so we can get that cross-examination?
6 THE COURT: All right, we are about due for a break
7
8 MR. FUCHS: Thank you, Your Honor.
9 THE COURT: why don't we take ten?
10 (Break taken.)
11 THE COURT: Let's have the jury, please.
12 (Jury in.)
13 THE COURT: You may continue, Mr. Fuchs.
14 MR. FUCHS: Thank you, Your Honor.
15 (Recording continued as follows in open court:)
16 BY MR. ROGERS:
17 Q i want to go back to where the wader and the
18 flashlight and the hunting jacket were pulled out of the lake.
19 where was that in relationship to the markers, the bamboo
20 markers that you had laid previously?
21 A within five feet.
22 Q Is that the same place that the previous diver from
23 the Army Corps of Engineers had dove?
24 A Yes. Everything was centered around that one area.
25 The very first day that I was using the poles and I hit
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 97
1 something that gave back, immediately marked the spot. we
2 always came back to that spot --
3 Q You said "we always.'T Is that everybody who is out
4 there searching comes back to that spot or just you in
5 particular?
6 A It was probably myself and another person that was
7 involved for the 60 days, Kip Bembry. That was just kind of
8 an area that we always focused on. And if there was any
9 additional searchers with the search and rescue teams or the
10 cadaver dogs, we would always take them to that spot. But,
11 that -- you know, that was where the whole search always kind
12 of seemed to center.
13 when Lamar English finished diving at that one spot
14 where we had marked, about 20 feet away from where the waders
15 came up and we found the jacket, there was a bunch of
16 alligator excrement and where they -- the hydrilla was all
17 turned over as if, you know, they had -- the alligators had
18 been trying to tear something up. And so as I piece it
19 together in my head,I could see where the boat, you know, had
20 possibly hit --
21 Q Right. So, now we're getting into what you put
22 together an idea of what had happened in your mind?
23 A Right.
24 Q okay. Suffice it to say, that you never found Mike
25 Williams' body in Lake Seminole?
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 A No, never did.
2 MR. ROGERS: I will pass the witness at this time.
3 CROSS EXAMINATION
4 BY MR. WAY:
5 Q Good day, Mr. Dungey.
6 A Hello.
7 Q My name is Ethan Way. I represent Denise Williams.
8 This area that you've described during your direct
9 examination that -- where you indicated that these items were
10 found, this was the deeper area? This is what you referred to
11 as a hole?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And it was approximately 12 feet deep or so?
14 A I would say 8 to 12 feet deep, yes, sir.
15 Q And you described it as the size of this courtroom?
16 A Yes.
17 Q So just ballpark, maybe 50 to 60 feet across?
18 A Yeah.
19 Q All right. But the rest of the area surrounding
20 this, what you described as a hole, was anywhere from four to
21 six feet deep?
22 A Right.
23 Q The area that you described as the hole, what was
24 that near? was it near an island? was it near some stumps?
25 Can you describe its location as it relates to the rest of
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 Lake Seminole?
2 A It was on the far side of the landing, closer to an
3 island that was on the other side of the -- this flooded pecan
4 orchard.
5 Q How close to this island?
6 A Maybe 30 yards. You know, that's where we had hoped
7 we might find Mike's bod- -- Mike. I shouldn't say his body
8 at the time. The first day or two we had hoped that that's
9 where he was at, that he had fallen out and possibly crawled
10 up over to that island.
11 Q Had you ever been duck hunting with Mike Williams?
12 A No.
13 Q Had you ever duck hunted out at Lake Seminole
14 before?
15 A No.
16 Q Did you know if the area around this island was an
17 area that was used for duck hunting or that duck hunters had
18 often frequented?
19 A No,I had never been there before.
20 Q when you were out there doing your search every day
21 after December 16th, 2000, did you ever see a lot of ducks in
22 this area?
23 A No, actually, I didn't. No,I -- there may have
24 been. I wasn't looking for them. There was a lot of activity
25 around there, so we would have scared them off.
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 100
1 Q Okay. But you don't recall ever seeing them?
2 A No.
3 Q But you did see alligator signs?
4 A i did.
5 Q I'm going to show you what has been marked for
6 these purposes as 1D.
7 MR. WAY: May I approach?
8 BY MR. WAY:
9 Q Sir, if you could have an opportunity to take a look
10 at that, please.
11 A (Witness complies.)
12 Q Mr. Dungey, does -- does that picture depict the
13 boat as you observed it on December 16th, 2000?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Did you have an opportunity to be near that boat or
16 to be right up physically in close proximity to that boat?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Did you observe anything out of the ordinary about
19 the condition of that boat, such as something being broken?
20 A No, not that I recall.
21 Q Do you remember seeing anything that looked like
22 blood on the boat?
23 A No.
24 Q Did you see anything that looked like there had been
25 a struggle inside of the boat?
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 101
1 A No.
2 Q And so as you understood it, the boat appeared just
3 to be in normal working condition for a boat of that nature?
4 A Yes.
5 Q You did mention that that boat had gone to Marcus
6 winchester's house and that you at some point in time had
7 taken possession of Mike's offshore boat?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Did you eventually buy that boat?
10 A No. I helped Denise -- I sold it for her to a third
11 party.
12 Q when did you help sell that boat for Ms. Williams?
13 A I would say probably in the March, April timeframe.
14 Q DO you remember how much you sold it for?
15 A No,I don't.
16 Q And I presume after you sold it, you gave her the
17 funds?
18 A Right.
19 Q were you helping her sell any other items?
20 MR. ROGERS: Objection.
21 THE WITNESS: Do I answer that or --
22 MR. WAY: No. Let's get a -- you can pause here.
23 BY MR. WAY:
24 Q Aside -- you had -- at one point in time, you had
25 indicated that you had been going to the site that you had
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 102
1 marked with the bamboo markers. was that -- did those markers
2 make it visible to -- let me back up.
3 How visible were these bamboo makers to anyone who
4 might have been on the lake?
5 A Not very. They were very thin bamboo shoots
6 basically.
7 Q Do you know if Brian Winchester had ever been out to
8 that location?
9 A I think Brian was only out there -- I saw him one
10 day out of the 60 days that I was there. So I don't -- he
11 didn't go there when I was there.
12 Q But do you know if he was aware of this area?
13 A Everybody was pretty much aware of the area.
14 Q You attended a memorial service for Mike Williams on
15 February 11th, 2001; is that correct?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And, in fact, you participated in a presentation at
18 the church as it related to a video of Mike Williams' life?
19 A Yes.
20 Q was Cheryl Williams present?
21 A You know, i honestly don't recall if she was or not.
22 There was 12- or 1,400 people there.
23 Q There were a lot of people that attended that
24 servi ce?
25 A Yes.
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 103
1 Q At that point in time you attended a memorial
2 service, did you believe that Mike williams had passed away?
3 MR. ROGERS: Objection.
4 BY MR. WAY:
5 Q The memorial service that was held in response to --
6 or was in the context of an ongoing search that had, as you
7 understood it, had wound down?
8 A Yes.
9 Q You testified that you continued to go out to Lake
10 Seminole every day. But did there come a point in time, based
11 on what you were doing, that you felt that you were no longer
12 looking for Mike Williams either on a island or being
13 somewhere else but perhaps just looking for his body?
14 A The first couple of days, you know, it was a search
15 and rescue operation. After about the third day, it became
16 evident that it was a body recovery.
17 Q when you arrived on the -- at the boat ramp on
18 December 16th, 2000, was Denise williams' father present,
19 Mr. Merrell?
20 A Yes, he was.
21 Q And did you speak with Mr. Merrell?
22 A I did.
23 Q Had Mr. Merrell been there longer than you had?
24 A I think he might have arrived around -- probably a
25 little before I did.
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 104
1 Q was he with somebody else?were there other people
2 with him when you arrived?
3 A I believe he was there with one of his friends as
4 well.
5 Q Do you also recall seeing a female game warden or a
6 female game officer present with Mr. Merrell?
7 A I don't recall that.
8 Q Do you recall that the boat ramp where the Bronco
9 and the boat were found is across the street from a natural
10 wildlife preserve, on the other side of the road?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Are you aware there is a game station or game shack
13 almost directly across from where the boat ramp is?
14 A I wouldn't say it was directly. It was 100 or 200
15 yards away.
16 Q In the times that you would go out to Lake Seminole
17 and would conduct a search, did you ever see anyone in that
18 game shack?
19 A Not that I can recall.
20 Q Did you -- in terms of the "not that you can
21 recall," is that because you weren't looking or weren't
22 recollecting that there was someone in there, or it just
23 wasn't something that was important to you?
24 A It just wasn't important to me.
25 MR. WAY: Nothing further.
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 105
1 MR. ROGERS: Nothing further from the State.
2 (Recording ended.)
3 THE COURT: Call your next witness?
4 MR. ROGERS: The State calls Joe Sheffield.
5 THE COURT: while the witness is coming in, let me
6 comment on one matter. There had been a couple of things
7 that have been put in evidence and we haven't seen much
8 of them. There will be other things put in evidence.
9 You'll have all of the exhibits, with very few
10 exceptions, back in the jury room with you during your
11 deliberations; so you don't need to feel like you have
12 to, you know, memorize them at this point in time. So we
13 will be certain to give you an opportunity to see those
14 items.
15 whereupon,
16 JOSEPH SHEFFIELD
17 was called as a witness, having been first duly sworn, was
18 examined and testified as follows:
19 THE COURT: Have a seat. Slide up to the
20 microphone, please, sir.
21 You may proceed.
22 DIRECT EXAMINATION
23 BY MR. ROGERS:
24 Q Sir, can you please state and spell your name for
25 the record?
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 106
1 A You said state and spell it?
2 Q Yes, sir.
3 A My name is Joseph Sheffield. J -O -S -E -P -H,
4 S -H -E- F -F -I -E -L -D.
5 Q Okay. Mr. Sheffield, where are you from?
6 A I'm from Sneads, Florida.
7 Q okay. where is that in relation to Tallahassee?
8 A Due west, about 50 miles.
9 Q okay. You lived there most of your life?
10 A About all of my life.
11 Q All right. Are you familiar with Lake Seminole?
12 A I have fished Lake Seminole since I was six years
13 old, and I'm 66 years old now. All of my life.
14 Q Are you an avid fisherman?
15 A I love it with a passion.
16 Q okay. I want to take you back to what brought you
17 here today. Did you recover something in Lake Seminole --
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q -- related to this case?
20 A Yes, I did. Yes,I did.
21 Q okay. Can you give me the time of year when you
22 were on Lake Seminole for this?
23 A This was about June, along June when I found these.
24 Q So this would be June of 2001?
25 A 2002, I believe -- no, 2000. I'm sorry. 2000.
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 107
1 Q of 2000. Okay.
2 A Roughly about five, six months after.
3 Q So you were aware that a duck hunter had gone
4 missing on Lake Seminole?
5 A very much so. very much so.
6 Q All right. well, what were you fishing for that
7 day. So it was in June?
8 A June. I fish for speckled perch. In that
9 particular area -- for years I've fished for speckled perch in
10 that area. Along that time of the year, May, June, the
11 fish -- that particular fish moves into the shallower waters.
12 So I'd go up in there and fish the shallower waters for them.
13 Q okay.
14 A In the cooler months, I fish the deeper water in the
15 same area.
16 Q All right. So, when you are fishing for the
17 speckled perch, at this point do you come across something
18 that catches your eye as being out of place?
19 A The first time I saw these waders, it really
20 didn't -- it didn't strike me too much. I thought it was a
21 stump underwater.
22 Q Can you describe the first time you saw them? Like,
23 how deep were they?
24 A Roughly about two foot under the water. The water
25 had fairly cleared up -- pretty clear at that point. It had a
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 dinge look to them, a yellowish dinge look to them, and it
2 appeared to be a pretty good-sized stump that maybe a boat --
3 a boat motor or something had hit and run over and roughed up
4 or whatever. So I kind of veered away from it when I saw it
5 because of that.
6 The next day I went back fishing again, same area.
7 This time when I came by these waders, they were roughly about
8 six inches under the water, and immediately, I says, The water
9 has not fell out this much. The stump has not swolled up this
10 much. So I stopped to see what it was.
11 Q Once you stopped to see, what did you see?
12 A At this point, it appeared to be something -- a life
13 jacket or something of that nature, is what I thought in my
14 mind, or something of that nature.
15 Q well --
16 A Needless to say,I reached down and pulled the
17 waders up on the side of my boat, and at that point, I could
18 see it was waders, actual waders. It had been there a little
19 while. They had some algae and settlements or whatever on
20 these waders at that point. Needless to say, it had a pouch
21 or a pack or whatever, a waist pouch, something of that
22 nature. And these waders were turned down to about the waist.
23 A pretty good turndown on them.
24 Q Can you describe how you wear waders? Does it go up
25 over your shoulders, like with some suspenders?
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 109
1 A The waders -- well, they do have suspenders, but
2 more or less they are just kind of like -- they are like
3 pants, a man's jeans that come up above -- up to his waist
4 with suspenders over them.
5 Q Okay. So when you say that they were turned down,
6 can you describe that a little more in detail for the jury?
7 A Can I stand up?
8 Q Yes, sir.
9 THE COURT: You can, yes.
10 THE WITNESS: The waders were folded over and pulled
11 down to the waist, like wrong side upwards, up to that
12 point.
13 BY MR. ROGERS:
14 Q up to the waist?
15 A up to the waist.
16 Q And you said you saw algae and some settlements on
17 them. Can you describe that a little bit more?
18 A well, it's -- obviously they had been there a little
19 while. Now, I don't -- I can't give you a date as to when or
20 what have you. I'm not certain of that. I know they had been
21 there long enough there was sediment on them and a growth,
22 more or less, and the heat obviously had caused the air to
23 form underneath the pocket where they were folded down, enough
24 to rise these up or make them float up. It took a right smart
25 for them to float up in the pocket within itself, this is with
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 110
1 the waders, had gun shells, and these shells are -- they are
2 steel shot shells, and it took a right smart to float them up
3 to that point.
4 Q Okay. So you are saying they would have been
5 weighted down, so they had to have something that brought them
6 to the surface?
7 A More or less.
8 Q Okay. Once you found out what they were, did you
9 contact any law enforcement?
10 A At this point when I realized that these belonged to
11 this Williams fellow --
12 Q How did you realize that?
13 A The pouch within itself that was with it, it did
14 have a nametag, license, whatever was in there, in that pouch.
15 I didn't go all through this thing. I just -- up to that
16 point,I realized this was the duck hunter's obviously. So I
17 eased these back into the water, made a run all the way back
18 down to the first bridge, what we call the first bridge, and
19 it is the first bridge off the River Road where I put in.
20 At that point, I called Mr. Alton Renew, and I
21 reported that I had found these waders and that -- it's --
22 obviously it was his waders and it was in the general area
23 where he went missing at that time. Mr. Renew informed me
24 that I needed to stay at the landing, that he would get
25 another party and he would come up with his boat.
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 Q Did you eventually take Mr. Renew to where you found
2 these?
3 A At that point, I took him to the waders, where they
4 were at.
5 MR. ROGERS: Okay. One moment. I will pass the
6 witness.
7 THE COURT: Cross.
8 CROSS EXAMINATION
9 BY MR. WAY:
10 Q Good morning, Mr. Sheffield.
11 A Good morning.
12 Q You ever hunt with waders?
13 A No. I'm not a hunter with waders.
14 Q You ever fish with waders?
15 A I tried a little bit. I'm not real wild about it.
16 Q Yes, sir. waders, they come in a couple different
17 types of materials. You can have -- are you familiar with
18 what type of wader material it might be, like, neoprene or
19 rubber or canvas?
20 A well, I would say rubber maybe.
21 Q All right. And these -- these waders that you found
22 at Lake Seminole, these waders were kind of floating, based on
23 what you indicated, by growth, but they were being held down
24 by a fanny pack full of shot shells?
25 A No, sir. I didn't say that at all.
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 112
1 Q Okay.
2 A I said these waders were floating up because of the
3 air volume that was building up under the pocket where they
4 were folded under.
5 Q Did it --
6 A They had floated up to this 2 -foot point when I saw
7 them the first day. The second day they floated up higher.
8 And, like i said, during this time of the year, the water
9 begins to warm up, and I -- pretty obvious to me it wasn't a
10 stump floating up.
11 Q I understand. But help me understand the waders
12 with the shot shells. There was a fanny pack or there was a
13 fanny pack attached to the waders?
14 A I guess that's what you'd call it. I don't -- there
15 was a pack or a pouch --
16 Q A pouch?
17 A -- with a strap or whatever on it. I don't --
18 fanny -- fanny pack suits me fine.
19 Q Yeah. I mean, no one uses them anymore, but it was
20 something around the waist?
21 A More or less.
22 Q okay. And did you indicate there were shot shells
23 in it or steel shells in that?
24 A Yes. This is the packet that I opened up, the pouch
25 that I'd opened up.
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 113
1 Q was -- and how heavy was that?
2 A I -- I don't know. Three, four pounds maybe or
3 less. I didn't -- kind of hard to state with the weight of
4 the water or whatever. It's not the same when you put it in
5 the water as it is on the hill.
6 Q Yes, sir. But it was attached around the waders?
7 A It was attached with it, with the waders.
8 Q All right. And you live in Sneads?
9 A Yes, I do.
10 Q And you drove in from Sneads today?
11 A Yes, I did.
12 Q This road we're talking about, River Road on the
13 west side, that is a north, south road on the west side of
14 Lake Seminole?
15 A well, it's not due north, but give or take, yes, it
16 runs north from Sneads.
17 Q And it's just west of Ad, the prison?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And the prison, that's Apalachee Correctional
20 Institution?
21 A Yes, it is.
22 Q It's a pretty large prison over there in Sneads?
23 A Pretty good sized.
24 Q And it's in the town of Sneads?
25 A Not the prison.
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 114
1 Q Just where River Road is?
2 A River Road leads from Sneads.
3 Q And across the bridge is the Florida State Hospital
4 in Chattahoochee?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q when you drove in this morning, did you drive
7 through any of these towns, or do you just go straight down to
8 the interstate?
9 A I went straight to the interstate.
10 Q And how long of a drive on the interstate was it
11 about?
12 A Forty-five minutes.
13 MR. WAY: Nothing further, Your Honor.
14 THE COURT: Redirect.
15 MR. ROGERS: Nothing further.
16 THE COURT: All right. Any juror have a question of
17 this witness?
18 All right. You can step down.
19 Do we need to keep Mr. Sheffield any further?
20 MR. ROGERS: No, Judge.
21 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
22 THE COURT: All right. You are excused. Thank you
23 for being here.
24 Call your next witness.
25 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, can we approach real
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 115
1 quickly?
2 (Discussion held off the record.)
3 THE COURT: So that was just a long-winded request
4 to take a lunch break before we start the next witness.
5 So I'd tell you our sidebars are not very exciting; so
6 that's what it was about.
7 we will take a break. Don't discuss the case with
8 anyone. Don't let anyone discuss the case with you.
9 Let's be back and ready to go at 1:00. All right. That
10 will give you a little over an hour.
11 Either side need anything?
12 MR. FUCHS: No, Your Honor.
13 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
14 THE COURT: We were going to have a little hearing
15 outside of the presence of the jury. Do we need to do
16 that later this afternoon?
17 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir.
18 (Jury out.)
19 THE COURT: Okay. All right 1:00. I did send you
20 all a revised version of the jury instructions. You
21 should have them.
22 (Lunch recess taken and proceedings continued in
23 volume II.)
24
25
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 116
1 CERTIFICATE
2 STATE OF FLORIDA:
3 COUNTY OF LEON:
4 I, LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, Official Court Reporter,
5 do hereby certify that the foregoing proceedings were taken
6 before me at the time and place therein designated; that my
7 shorthand notes were thereafter translated under my
8 supervision; and the foregoing pages are a true and correct
9 record of the aforesaid proceedings.
10 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative,
11 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor
12 relative or employee of such attorney or counsel, or
13 financially interested in the foregoing action.
14 DATED this 8th day of March, 2019. 15
16
17
18 LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR 19 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER LEON COUNTY COURTHOUSE 20 TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301
21
22
23
24
25
LINDA CUNNINGHAM, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER Filing # 88224026 E -Filed 04/18/20 19 05:27:3 1 PM
117 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SECOND JUDICIAL CIRCUIT, IN AND FOR LEON COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO.: 2018CF1592
STATE OF FLORIDA
vs.
DENISE WILLIAMS,
Defendant. /
Volume II
Pages 117-261
PROCEEDINGS: JURY TRIAL
BEFORE: THE HONORABLE JAMES C. HANKINSON
DATE: December 11, 2018
TIME: Commencing at 12:55 p.m. concluding at 4:52 p.m.
LOCATION: Leon county Courthouse Tallahassee, Florida
REPORTED BY: Johana M. Kesterson, Official Reporter Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at Large
JOHANA M. KESTERSON Official Court Reporter Leon County Courthouse, Room 341 Tallahassee, FL 32301 118 1 APPEARANCES
2 REPRESENTING THE STATE: JON FUCHS, ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY 3 JAMES ROGERS, ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY OFFICE OF THE STATE ATTORNEY 4 LEON COUNTY COURTHOUSE TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301 5
6 REPRESENTING THE DEFENDANT:
7 ETHAN WAY, ESQUIRE PHILIP J. PADOVANO WAY LAW FIRM BRANNOCK & HUMPHRIE 8 P.O. BOX 10017 131 N. GADSDEN STREET TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32302 TALLAHASSEE, FL. 32301 9
10 INDEX WITNESSES: PAGE: 11 ALTON RENEW Direct Examination By M. Fuchs 119 12 Cross Examination By M. Way 146 Redirect Examination By Mr. Fuchs 149 13 TULLY SPARKMAN 14 Direct Examination By M. Fuchs 151 Cross Examination By M. Way 161 15 Redirect Examination By Mr. Fuchs 171
16 MICHAEL DEVANEY Direct Examination By Mr. Fuchs 175 17 Cross Examination By M. Padavano 186 Redirect Examination By Mr. Fuchs 193 18 BRIAN WINCHESTER 19 Direct Examination By Mr. Fuchs 198
20 INDEX STATE'S: PAGE: 21 2 127 22 3A,3B, 3C 134 4A -M 136 23 6A -C 143 7-A,B,C 159 24 8 161
25 Certificate of Reporter 261 119 1 PROCEEDINGS
2 THE COURT: we ready for a jury?
3 MR. FUCHS: Mr. Rogers went out to get our witness,
4 Your Honor.
5 THE COURT: All right. Let's have the jury, please.
6 MR. FUCHS: Okay. we're good.
7 (Jury enters.)
8 THE COURT: All right. If you'd face the clerk and
9 be sworn, please.
10 whereupon,
11 ALTON RENEW,
12 was called as a witness, having been first duly sworn, was
13 examined and testified as follows:
14 THE COURT: okay. Have a seat. Slide up to the
15 microphone, please, sir. You may proceed.
16 MR. FUCHS: Thank you, Your Honor.
17 DIRECT EXAMINATION
18 BY MR. FUCHS:
19 Q Good morning -- or afternoon, sir.
20 A Afternoon.
21 Q Could you please introduce yourself to the jurors?
22 A I'm Alton Renew. I'm from Sneads, Florida.
23 Q And, Mr. Renew, are you currently employed?
24 A No, sir. I'm retired.
25 Q what are you retired from? 120 1 A The Florida Fish and wildlife.
2 Q Okay. And what did you do for Florida Fish and
3 wildlife?
4 A Sir?
5 Q what did you do for Florida Fish and wildlife?
6 A oh. I was a wildlife officer that patrolled the
7 waters and the lands of the state of Florida. Mainly Jackson
8 County was my assignment.
9 Q okay. And how long were you employed in that
10 capacity?
11 A Thirty-one years.
12 Q okay. By my calculations -- when did you retire?
13 A May 12, 2012.
14 Q okay.
15 A Correction -- correction. Vm sorry, that was May
16 31, 2012.
17 Q Okay. So back in December of 2000 you were
18 employed?
19 A Yes.
20 Q okay. In your capacity there at FWC, Florida
21 wildlife Commission, did you become involved in the search for
22 Mike Williams?
23 A Yes.
24 Q How is it that you became involved in that?
25 A I was contacted by my supervisor that we had a 121 1 search going on in Lake Seminole. And to come to work on the
2 Sunday morning of December 17th, I believe it was.
3 Q Okay. It's my understanding the initial call out
4 was -- you weren't part of the initial response, correct?
5 A No, sir,I was off duty that day.
6 Q Okay. And so you became involved on December 17,
7 2000?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Okay. And what was your role in all that?
10 A we had to take a boat and go out and just search the
11 waters for the missing person.
12 Q Okay. Did you assume any kind of, like, lead role
13 in that or anything like that?
14 A I wasn't lead. I was, basically -- I was there
15 every day and had the boat and the operating of the boat. And
16 there were several boats and other officers out there as well.
17 Q Okay.
18 A The lieutenant was the lead officer.
19 Q All right. I know sometimes lieutenants are leads
20 but you're the one that's taking charge and doing all the
21 work; is that fair to say?
22 A Yes, sir. Basically, yes, sir.
23 Q Okay. All right. Now, you talked about a boat. So
24 you had your own boat?
25 A we started out with our kicker boat, which has the 122 1 motor on the back of it and it hangs down in the water. And
2 there's so many stumps in this area that we had to go and
3 borrow what is called a Go Devil Boat that has a long shaft
4 prop that would kick up out of the water. And it was kind of
5 like a lawn mower motor on the boat but it has a long shaft.
6 So we had to use that because it would maneuver between the
7 stumps.
8 Q okay. Now,I think you said you were out there
9 every single -- every day?
10 A Basically, every day of the search.
11 Q okay. And were you the only person out there or
12 were there more people?
13 A oh, there was quite a few people.
14 Q were they all law enforcement?
15 A No, sir. Not all of them.
16 Q Okay. were they all -- were there other law
17 enforcement officers there?
18 A There was several other law enforcement out there as
19 well.
20 Q were they all FWC or were they from other agencies?
21 A Most was FWC. There was some Jackson County
22 Sheriff's deputies there as well.
23 Q At some point were there any kind of dive teams that
24 were utilized?
25 A we had a couple of divers that had done some diving 123 1 for us, yes.
2 Q Okay. At some point did the -- whenever you first
3 arrived on the 17th, how would you classify the search? was
4 it for recovery purposes? were you looking for somebody?
5 what was going on?
6 A It was to -- it was looking for a missing duck
7 hunter at that time that just was missing. And that's all we
8 knew.
9 Q Okay. At some point did it -- how long were you out
10 there doing that search?
11 A The period of time was about 44 days on the primary
12 search. And then it started breaking down. And due to the
13 fact that I live right there by the lake and patrol that area
14 every day,I was assigned to -- when I went on the water, to
15 go to that area and see if I could find anything or, you know,
16 if there was anything developed.
17 Q Okay. Were there any kind aerial platforms,
18 helicopters? I don't think they had drones back then. But
19 anything like that being used?
20 A Yes. The county helicopter, our FWC helicopter,
21 several fixed -wing aircraft flying.
22 Q Okay. what is a fixed -wing aircraft? what does
23 that mean?
24 A Airplane. Like a Cessna.
25 Q Okay. Regular old airplane? 124 1 A Yes.
2 Q Okay. Did you do any kind of documentation that
3 talked about --
4 Let me back up a little bit. when you say you did a
5 search, is it just kind of, go out, every man for themselves
6 and just look or how do you organize that kind of search?
7 A No. Actually, we did grid searches. we would go
8 across the body of water -- say, like this courtroom, we would
9 go across to that wall, back to that wall. And only move over
10 four to six foot at a time in the beginning. And then we'd
11 come back and isolate that to a certain area. And we actually
12 put ropes out from one stump to another. And pole with poles
13 the first couple of days.
14 And then after -- I think after the first night we
15 had a camera come in and put on the poles with a monitor that
16 we would monitor the bottom as the guy would work the pole on
17 the bottom. And we used that camera.
18 And I think it was maybe the second or third day we
19 had two cameras. So there was two boats with two individual
20 cameras working grid lines for search.
21 Q And you said that initially you're looking for a
22 missing person. Did that -- I assume that initially you were
23 hoping to find somebody alive?
24 A We were. That's our goal, is to find them alive.
25 Trying to locate them. Maybe -- we just didn't know what was 125 1 going on. Maybe we could find them in an island. A boat
2 might have turned over on a stump and we might find them
3 standing on the island going, hey, I'm over here, you know.
4 But it just didn't happen.
5 Q Never found anything. At some point did the search
6 turn into a recovery operation?
7 A well, we just -- it never did have a recovery, we
8 just searched the area, you know, intensively until we
9 couldn't find anything, so. . . I say couldn't find anything,
10 we found some articles but --
11 Q And we'll get to those in just a minute.
12 A okay.
13 Q You talked earlier about the polling. what is that
14 about?
15 A well, i went to the hardware store and I purchased
16 some PVC pipe, inch -and -a -half PVC pipe, 14 to 16 -foot long.
17 And we would pole along down on the bottom, touching the
18 bottom and moving. Every few feet we'd pole. And we would
19 hit stumps and logs and stuff.
20 Q But what is the purpose of doing this poling?
21 A well, in my experience if you -- if you're looking
22 for a body that might have fallen out of a boat and it's on
23 the bottom, it's kind of like a pillow when you -- when you
24 punch it. It won't spring back on you but it will kind of --
25 it's spongy. The bottom will be mucky and it will go through 126 1 -- you know, you can tell the difference once you've done it
2 several times.
3 If you hit a limb, and the limb will spring back on
4 you so you can tell the difference. At one time we did think
5 that we had something. I think a gentleman said, I've got
6 something over here. But we tried it ourselves, law
7 enforcement tried t. And I was thinking, well, it's a log
8 but we'll put a diver down. And the diver found that it was a
9 tree top.
10 Q okay. That particular spot you're talking about
11 there, did y'all take any efforts to mark those with bamboo
12 sticks or something along those lines?
13 A Yes. we marked it with one of those poles.
14 Q Okay. During the course of this search, did you
15 make any notes about search patterns and things that were
16 found?
17 A Yes, sir,I did.
18 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, may I approach?
19 THE COURT: You may.
20 BY MR. FUCHS:
21 Q showing you what's been previously marked as State's
22 Exhibit No.2 for identification purposes. without showing
23 this to the jury I ask you to take a look at it, please.
24 A That seems to be my drawing of the search pattern
25 with the K-9. 127 1 MR.FUCHS: Okay. And, Your Honor, at this timeI
2 would move State's ExhibitNo.2 into evidence.
3 THECOURT: Any objection?
4 MR.WAY: Noobjection, Your Honor.
5 THECOURT: State's Exhibit 2 will be admitted
6 without objection.
7 (State's ExhibitNo.2 received in evidence.)
8 MR.FUCHS: Permission to publish?
9 THECOURT: You may.
10 BY MR.FUCHS:
11 Q All right. A whole lot of arrows, it looks like,
12 that are drawn around these. what do those indicate?
13 A That is the pattern that we took with the dogs
14 and -- can you scroll that down to the top whereIcan review
15 the -- whatI-- my notes there?
16 Q Okay.
17 A The dotted line is the route that we're taking. The
18 half arrow represents the first loop. The full arrow is the
19 second loop. And the solid line, the arrow represents the
20 third loop. Okay. Good.
21 Q when you talk about loops, what do you mean?
22 A what happens when you have a K-9 dog -- andI'llsay
23 this,Iwas trained in K-9 while in the game commission.
24 Q Okay.
25 A So I was one of the first ten K-9 officers, to give 128 1 you a 1-ittle background. But the dog we had was -- the first
2 dog out there was from the Northwest Florida Search and Rescue
3 Team. And on No.1 on those half arrows we started on the
4 downwind side. The wind was coming in -- you can see the sign
5 where it says "wind.'T The wind was coming out of the
6 northeast. So we started on the southwest corner, or,
7 basically, on that shoreline.
8 Q So down here?
9 A where if there had been a body or anything there,
10 the scent --
11 Q Here you go.
12 A Okay. Thank you. we started from the landing,
13 working around, starting here. And the dogs kind of indicated
14 on those little xs right here. They indicated something was
15 there.
16 Q Let me stop you right there. You said the dogs
17 indicated something was there. What kind of dogs are we
18 talking about? I mean, there's narcotic dogs, there's cadaver
19 dogs.
20 A They're search and rescue cadaver dogs.
21 Q So they're trained to pick up what?
22 A Human scent.
23 Q Okay. Is it human scent as in live human scent,
24 decaying human scent or all of the above?
25 A These dogs will track you on the ground and they're 129 1 also trained pretty intensively with cadaver training --
2 Q Okay.
3 A -- as well.
4 Q Let me pause you real quick. we'll get back to the
5 dogs in just a second. up here at the top it says "landing"
6 with a star. What is that?
7 A That's a small dirt landing area, probably a hundred
8 foot by -- say a hundred by a hundred. And then it's -- and
9 there's grass all out in there. But there's a little slip
10 that you could slide a boat in right there.
11 Q All right. And I know -- I understand from Officer
12 Morris that a Bronco was found. Is that that landing right
13 there where the Bronco was found?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q Okay. And I do notice there's another landing down
16 here. what's that?
17 A That is a little road that comes off -- off the
18 highway that goes in there to another small slip. And it's
19 not as good as this one. It's kind of growed [sic] over.
20 But, you know, people will slip their duck boats in there
21 sometimes and just make a small trail through the grass.
22 Q I think there's some sort of, like, game reporting
23 station or something like that along this road somewhere.
24 where's that at?
25 A About there. On the west side of the road. 130 1 Q Okay. So on the other side of the road from that
2 landing?
3 A Right straight across from that landing.
4 Q All right. All right. So let's get back. Let's
5 look at this. It says shallow water here and I notice you
6 have a couple of trees that have been noted on here. What are
7 those for?
8 A well, it's documenting that this is, you know,
9 anywhere from three- to four -foot water at the time. And then
10 you get on down -- the trees are old oak trees that were
11 flooded in and, you know, all the leaves are dead off of them.
12 And then, you know, those are trees there. And there's a tree
13 there.
14 And this area here is a deeper hole that's created
15 there in that slough. It gets 10, 12, 14 -foot sometimes.
16 Q Let me stop you right there. what is a slough?
17 A A slough. That's the backwater coming off the lake.
18 Q okay.
19 A And it's got weeds and islands and grass around it.
20 And it just feeds through the lake.
21 Q Like, kind of like a murky -water type area of the
22 lake --
23 A Yes.
24 Q -- or something like that?
25 A Yes. 131 1 Q Okay. All right. And you said that you had all the
2 xs here, are these -- and what were the significance of these
3 xs?
4 A Basically where the dogs alerted, gave some kind of
5 alerts. You know, the trainer would know their alert pattern
6 so the dog alerted there. we made a circle. Come back around
7 and try to make another run by it, which is there and the dog
8 alerted again. And then the second run and third run.
9 And you go out of the pattern to let the dog relax.
10 And once you get out of the pattern and he relaxes, you bring
11 him back in. And if the scent pool -- if there's anything
12 there, with the wind it could go this way. And the wind could
13 change. It would move around a little bit, but -- and the dog
14 would alert in that particular area.
15 Q Okay. Now, you mentioned earlier about an area that
16 you marked with a bamboo or whatever it is, where they had the
17 alert. where was that on this?
18 A This was -- this tree is not there anymore. It's
19 rotted down. But from that tree out to the south of that tree
20 about 25 feet there's a -- still there today is a white PVC
21 pipe marking the area of that deepest hole.
22 Q Okay. And you mentioned it had been marked by
23 bamboo and that brings a point. Did you at some point change
24 the bamboo out for a PVC pipe to mark that location?
25 A The bamboo that was used there basically was put 132 1 inside the pvc pipes.
2 Q Okay.
3 A To stabilize them. They were so long they were
4 flexible. So we put bamboo, like green cane poles inside and
5 we kept both sides of the PVC.
6 Q All right. And you said thereTs still PVC pipe
7 there today?
8 A Yes, sir. There's one there.
9 Q During that extensive search that you just talked
10 about was there anything found initially?
11 A I didn't find it. But another officer found the
12 boat with the gear in it. And I wasn't there at that time.
13 Q Okay. Did you have an opportunity to observe the
14 boat?
15 A Not at first. Not when they took it out of the
16 water and all that. I wasn't there.
17 Q Okay. Were you aware where they did find it?
18 A Yes. They pointed it out to me.
19 Q Okay. And, actually, if I can go back to your map
20 here. is that what we're looking at right here?
21 A Yes. From the landing there's some grass -- a
22 grass -- this little u -shaped thing here represents,
23 basically, grass. And there's the boat right there.
24 And actually off the grass right there, if that had
25 been straightened out a little bit, you know, the boat was 133 1 between this landing and that landing in that area.
2 Q Okay.
3 A up against the grass, cattails.
4 Q were there any other items that were found?
5 A During the first few weeks I found a cooler and a
6 coffee mug in the area near the boat. But it was kind of up
7 in this grass up in here.
8 Q Did that turn out to be a -- another -- not related
9 to this?
10 A It wasn't related to this search. A gentleman came
11 to the landing the third day of the search and said he had
12 turned his boat over out in front of the landing. And he
13 described the cooler and the coffee mug and it was returned to
14 him.
15 Q okay. And what about a hat or booties or anything
16 like that? were any of those items -- anything?
17 A Yes, sir. The hat was found on the 10th morning of
18 the search.
19 Q And where was that found?
20 A we put -- we put in here at the landing -- or up at
21 the other landing and come around and started our grid. And
22 before I even got to here, the hat was off of that tree and
23 over in the shallow water near this tree. Between that tree
24 and the grass. It was placed right in there.
25 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, may I approach, please? 134 1 THECOURT: You may.
2 BYMR.FUCHS:
3 Q Showing you what's been previously marked as State's
4 Exhibit Composite 3 A,B and C. A couple of maps. Take a
5 look at those items.
6 A Okay.
7 Q Dothose maps accurately depict the area that we're
8 talking about? The locations, just from satellite imagery.
9 A Yes, sir.
10 MR.FUCHS: Your Honor, at this time I'd move
11 State's Composite 3A,B and C into evidence.
12 THECOURT: Any objection?
13 MR.WAY: No,Your Honor.
14 THECOURT: They'll be admitted without objection.
15 (State's ExhibitNo.3A,3B, 3C received in
16 evidence.)
17 BYMR.FUCHS:
18 Q I'm looking at this first map, andIthink this just
19 kind of tells us where everything is. Lake Seminole up here.
20 And that's -- approximately how far from Tallahassee
21 drive -wise? How long did it take you to drive over here?
22 A It's about 55, 60 miles.
23 Q okay.
24 A Somewhere in that range.
25 Q Little bit closer look at the west side of the lake. 135 1 That would be the landing and where the boat was found in
2 relation to each other?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Andthen photograph number C. Again, the initial
5 landingwherethe Bronco was found; where the boat was found;
6 where thetreesthat weTve talked about; as well as that
7 rangerstationwe've talked about?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Next--
10 MR.FUCHS: If I can approach?
11 BY MR.FUCHS:
12 Q I'mshowing you State's Composite Exhibit No. 4-A
13 throughM.
14 THECOURT: You may approach.
15 BY MR.FUCHS:
16 Q Takea look at those, please, without showing the
17 jury.
18 Do thosephotographs accurately depict the search
19 area aswell aspersonnel and other items that were involved?
20 A Yes,sir, it does.
21 MR.FUCHS: Your Honor, permission to --
22 I'dmove State's Exhibit -- Composite Exhibit 4-A
23 throughMinto evidence.
24 THECOURT: Any objection?
25 MR.WAY: No, Your Honor. 136 1 THE COURT: Be admitted without objection.
2 (State's Exhibit No. 4A -M received in evidence.)
3 MR. FUCHS: Permission to publish?
4 THE COURT: You may.
5 BY MR. FUCHS:
6 Q Mr. Renew, what are we looking at here?
7 A That's basically the landing area that we're talking
8 about. The water is quite low so it's muddy at the landing.
9 And we're looking southeast. And you can see the bigger --
10 the larger tree in the background here. And then a little bit
11 further south of there, kind of the dark spot right here, that
12 was basically where the pole is.
13 Q All right. And this area right here, is this where
14 the same kind of area -- or the same area that the Bronco was
15 found at?
16 A Yes. Just back this side of the landing.
17 Q Okay. What are we looking at there?
18 A Basically, looking at the same area a little bit on
19 the northeast -- a little bit northeast of the search area.
20 Q okay. And I think that the previous big tree you
21 were pointing out is right here. So we're kinding of looking
22 at -- you're looking out towards the left?
23 A Yes, sir. we're looking a little bit -- that's the
24 search -- I say search area, this is all the search area. But
25 the main area that the dogs alerted on was down here. This is 137 1 just a 1-ittle bit north of that other photo.
2 Q Okay. And I believe this is a little bit farther to
3 the left?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Same view. Appears to be of a helicopter in this
6 one. That was part of the search?
7 A Yes, sir, it was.
8 Q As well as the boat?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q what are we looking at here? Photograph 4-E? It
11 appears to be just some grass area?
12 A I'm thinking that might be the big tree. I'm not
13 real sure. It looks like that photo might have been taken
14 from a vessel or something. But due to the weeds along the
15 roadway it would be hard to get to that point.
16 Q okay. Photo 4-F appears to be blurry. But are
17 those the PVC pipes we're talking about?
18 A Yes, sir, it is. And that's the large tree there
19 that we -- the larger tree. All these are down now. But I
20 think it's that pipe that's left.
21 Q More photos of the area where the stumps are that
22 we're talking about?
23 A Yes, sir. Looking kind of northward. That's the
24 landing area.
25 Q Is that the boat that was found? 138 1 A It appears to be the same boat.
2 Q And my understanding is you were not there when it
3 was found. However, you were there afterward and were able to
4 observe it?
5 A Afterwards. I wasn't there when it was in that
6 position.
7 Q Just for clarification, is this the boat that was
8 found?
9 A I believe it is.
10 Q Okay. But it was not on the trailer initially? It
11 was found and then put on the trailer by law enforcement
12 officers?
13 A Yes.
14 Q what is this? Is that the Go Devil you were talking
15 about?
16 A Yes, sir. That's the small like -- small engine
17 with the long shaft and the prop's down here.
18 Q Photograph 4-L, the inside of the boat. And 4-M
19 depicts the way the boat was found and the items inside the
20 boat?
21 A I think so, sir. I didn't -- I wasn't there when it
22 was recovered.
23 Q Okay. So that initial search,I think you described
24 earlier, went on for 44 days, correct?
25 A Yes, sir. 139 1 Q At that point, did you have any reason to believe
2 that this would be -- turn into a homicide investigation?
3 A No, sir.
4 Q The items that we've talked about, the Bronco, the
5 boat and everything like that, they weren't collected as
6 evidence for that reason, correct?
7 A No, sir.
8 Q okay. And for -- you never found Mike Williams or
9 the missing boater, correct?
10 A No.
11 Q Later that summer, did you have an occasion to get
12 called back out to that location?
13 A Yes, I did.
14 Q okay. What happened there?
15 A Friend of mine, a local fisherman as well, he
16 contacted me and said that he had found a set of waders
17 floating in the area that we had been searching.
18 Q okay. And what did you do with that information?
19 A I contacted the sheriff's office, the investigator,
20 Jeff Johnson. And he came over and he and I went out and
21 retrieved the evidence of the waders at that time.
22 Q All right. Were there any further searches and
23 other pieces of evidence that were found?
24 A A diver came in and dove up a jacket with a flash
25 light. 140 1 Q Okay. Anything else? Anything found inside the
2 waders or the flash -- or the jacket?
3 A The waders had a fanny pack that was strapped around
4 the waistband with a 15 -shot shell, steel -shot shells in them.
5 And a -- I think an Arkansas hunting license.
6 Q And that Arkansas hunting license, did it have a
7 name on it?
8 A It had Mike williams' name on it.
9 Q And when was that?
10 A That was the first or second day of June of that
11 same year.
12 Q Okay. So about six months later?
13 A Yes. Actually, it was like June of 2001.
14 Q Okay. All right.
15 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, may I approach?
16 THE COURT: You may.
17 BY MR. FUCHS:
18 Q showing you what's been previously marked for
19 identification purposes as State's Composite 5-A through E.
20 without showing those to the jury, I'd ask you to take a look
21 at them, please.
22 Do you recognize those items?
23 A Yes.
24 Q what do those items appear to be?
25 A That's the jacket and the hunting license. 141 1 Q Okay. Are these the items that were found
2 approximately six months after the --
3 A Yes.
4 Q -- after the search that you just described?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q Do they fairly and accurately depict those items?
7 A Yes.
8 MR.FUCHS: Your Honor, at this time I'd move
9 State's Composite 5A through E into evidence, please.
10 THECOURT: Any objection?
11 MR.WAY: Noobjection, Your Honor.
12 THECOURT: Be admitted without objection.
13 MR.FUCHS: Permission to publish?
14 THECOURT: You may.
15 MR.FUCHS: Thank you.
16 BYMR.FUCHS:
17 Q Photograph 5-A, what are we looking at here?
18 A That would be the jacket that was found by the
19 diver.
20 Q 5-B?
21 A That's the same jacket that's turned -- laid on the
22 tailgate there upside down -- or inside out.
23 Q 5-C? Same jacket again?
24 A Inside of the same jacket.
25 Q 5-D? 142 1 A Is the hunting license.
2 Q And 5-E?
3 A Hunting license folded up.
4 Q These items that we just talked about, were they
5 seized into evidence?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q Again, at that time nobody believed it to be a
8 homicide investigation; is that fair to say?
9 A That's correct.
10 Q And, finally, we talked a little bit about the
11 multiple landings that we -- as well as the PVC pipe that can
12 still be seen today.
13 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, may I approach?
14 THE COURT: You may.
15 BY MR. FUCHS:
16 Q showing what's been previously marked for
17 identification purposes as State's Exhibit 6-A through C.
18 ask you to take a look at those items, please, sir.
19 what are these items?
20 A That's photos of the small landing across from the
21 check station. And the search area on the water. And the
22 small landing that we were -- where we staged up the search at
23 and where the Bronco was found.
24 Q And do they fairly and accurately depict those
25 locations? 143 1 A Yes.
2 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, at this time I would move
3 State's Composite 6-A through C into evidence, please.
4 THE COURT: Any objection?
5 MR. WAY: No objection, Your Honor.
6 THE COURT: Be admitted without objection.
7 (State's Exhibit No. 6A -C received in evidence.)
8 BY MR. FUCHS:
9 Q Let's look at 6-B first. which location is that?
10 A That's the area where the Bronco was found in the
11 small boat landing, dirt landing.
12 Q And that photograph 4-A, that's the Bronco at that
13 landing, correct, on the day that it was found?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 THE COURT: Did you say four?
16 MR. FUCHS: 4-A, yes, sir.
17 THE COURT: So we're going back to some earlier
18 ones?
19 MR. FUCHS: Yes.
20 THE COURT: Okay.
21 MR. FUCHS: I'm sorry, 1A. I apologize, 1A.
22 BY MR. FUCHS:
23 Q Photograph 6-C looks out over that area. Is that
24 the search area as it exists today?
25 A Yes, sir. 144 1 Q I notice there's a little white thing right here.
2 what is that?
3 A That's the pole that we left out there. At the time
4 we were using them for search and markers.
5 Q Still there today? This is actually after the
6 hurricane, is it not?
7 A Yes. That's well after the hurricane there, I
8 believe.
9 Q Yes, sir. And then, finally, I'm going to show you
10 6-A. where is this at? what's that?
11 A That's the small landing across from the check
12 station. There's a highway just this side at the bottom of
13 the photo. And across the road is a check station for the
14 management area. It's just a small dirt landing.
15 Q All right. And it looks like it's a halfway decent
16 distance over to the water. But how far is that about?
17 A well, the -- from that point of the landing and just
18 a little bit at a -- maybe a 45 -degree angle is the search
19 area, right in there.
20 0 And how far from where the road is to the water
21 area?
22 A 80 yards, maybe.
23 Q Almost a football field?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Now, Mr. Renew, the area that the search located -- 145 1 where y'all performed the search, is that a common area for
2 duck hunters?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q During your time patrolling there, had you ever run
5 into Mike williams before?
6 A Yes, I have.
7 Q Are you familiar with --
8 well, let me ask you this: You're familiar with the
9 term duck blind?
10 A Yes.
11 Q what is a duck blind?
12 A A duck blind can be several different things. They
13 can go out on the bullrush on the cattails and build up the
14 cattails to cover themselves.
15 And another way to do a duck blind is a floating
16 duck blind. Like, you could build it on your boat and cover
17 your boat where you can hide in there.
18 Q Did Mike Williams have any duck blinds out in there
19 that he used on a regular basis?
20 A I checked them in the cattails before. And they
21 didn't have a duck blind, per se. You can pull in the
22 cattails certain ways that they just make you a natural blind.
23 Q okay. And did Mike Williams utilize that
24 natural -blind area in order to hunt ducks on a regular basis?
25 A Several times. Yes. 146 1 MR. FUCHS: No further questions.
2 THE COURT: Cross?
3 CROSS- EXAMINATION
4 BY MR. WAY:
5 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Renew.
6 A How are you, sir?
7 Q You had indicated that when the items were found in
8 June of 2001 -- I think we saw in the photographs that someone
9 was there holding them with rubber gloves on?
10 A Yes.
11 Q who was the person holding those items?
12 A I'm not sure who was actually holding the items.
13 know that Sergeant Jempsey Owens (phonetic) was our
14 investigator with the Game and Fish Commission. And then
15 there was an investigator with the sheriff's office as well.
16 And I don't know if they were together and did that or who
17 took the photos.
18 Q when those items were seized into evidence -- where
19 are they now?
20 A I don't know that they were seized into evidence.
21 think they were turned back to the family.
22 Q Okay. I --
23 A I don't know, really, that answer, sir.
24 Q All right. I apologize. I just -- I may have
25 misunderstood when you had said earlier the answer to that 147 1 question.
2 The boat that was found at the scene, where did that
3 boat go?
4 A It was turned back over to the family.
5 Q whose family?
6 A To Mike williams' family.
7 Q okay. Do you know that for certain or could it have
8 been turned over to someone else?
9 A I was told that it was turned over to the family.
10 And that's the word they used, the family. And I'm assuming
11 back to his family.
12 Q You described in Exhibit 2 the area where the K-9
13 searched. when was this K-9 search with the dogs conducted as
14 it relates to December 16, 2000? was it done the same day?
15 The next day?
16 A I'm not sure of the date, sir. But it was within
17 two weeks or within the first week and a half or two weeks.
18 Q And the dogs alerted but what did they find?what
19 did they alert to?
20 A There was nothing that we found. You know, there
21 was nothing there that we found or could see. But they would
22 react.
23 And even one was in front of the boat and started
24 sniffing and walked down the gunnel of the boat to the back
25 sniffing the water. I: 1 And, you know, we searched that area with the
2 cameras and with the poles and everything as well. And there
3 was nothing that we could find.
4 Q And if i understand correctly, based on where the
5 landings were on the western side of Lake Seminole, were the
6 dogs run over the dry land areas where the boat may have been
7 pulled out or where the Bronco was?
8 A I'm not sure of that, sir.
9 Q when you observed the boat, did the dogs ever get
10 run over the boat?
11 A I'm not sure. I didn't witness that.
12 Q You said you'd seen Mike Williams before out at Lake
13 Semi nol e?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Did you ever see Brian Winchester prior to December
16 16, 2000?
17 A Yes.
18 Q How often would Brian Winchester hunt out at that
19 area?
20 A I checked him several times. You know, I knew both
21 of them. And I knew -- when they'd come into the landings, I
22 would check them. Check their boat and their kill, or
23 whatever, their limit and their license.
24 Q Prior to December 16th of 2000, about how many times
25 would you have encountered Brian Winchester hunting at the 149 1 Lake Seminole area?
2 A You know, I didn't really count the times. But I
3 would estimate three to five times.
4 Q Did you ever encounter Brian Winchester and Mike
5 Williams hunting together for ducks prior to December 16th of
6 2000?
7 A A few years before and maybe that year as well.
8 Q So maybe one time?
9 A Maybe one time. yeah.
10 MR. WAY: No further questions, Your Honor.
11 THE COURT: Redirect?
12 MR. FUCHS: Briefly.
13 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
14 BY MR. FUCHS:
15 Q Talk about the dogs. Just for clarification, they
16 pick up on both live scent -- scent of live people as well as
17 deceased, correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q So if you'd run them over the boat that people had
20 been in, there's no way to tell which alert they're doing,
21 correct?
22 A That's right.
23 Q So they would have alerted somebody was in the boat,
24 but you can't tell whether that's a deceased or --
25 A Not unless you do what we call scent discrimination. 150 1 And that wasn't available.
2 Q It wasn't available at that time?
3 A No.
4 Q Okay.
5 MR. FUCHS: No further questions.
6 THE COURT: All right. Any juror have a question of
7 this witness?
8 (No audible response.)
9 THE COURT: All right. If not, you may step down.
10 Do we need to keep him further?
11 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, he will be subject to
12 recall, but he can go about his business.
13 THE COURT: All right. You can go about your
14 business. Be subject to recall. You are under The Rule
15 of Sequestration, so don't discuss the case with anyone.
16 Call your next witness.
17 MR. FUCHS: Yes, Your Honor. State would call Tully
18 Sparkman.
19 THE COURT: If you'd face the clerk and be sworn
20 please, sir.
21 whereupon,
22 TULLY SPARKMAN,
23 was called as a witness, having been first duly sworn, was
24 examined and testified as follows:
25 THE COURT: Have a seat. Slide up to the 151 1 microphone, please, sir.
2 DIRECT EXAMINATION
3 BY MR. FUCHS:
4 Q Good afternoon, sir.
5 A Hello.
6 Q Can you please introduce yourself to the jurors?
7 A My name's Tully Sparkman.
8 Q Okay. And Mr. Sparkman, are you employed?
9 A Yes, I am.
10 Q where do you work?
11 A I work for the State Attorney's Office.
12 Q And what do you do with the State Attorney's Office?
13 A I'm an investigator.
14 Q How long have you been an investigator with the
15 State Attorney's office?
16 A I have been an investigator for nearly 13 years.
17 Going on 13.
18 Q okay. Prior to that, did you have any prior law
19 enforcement experience?
20 A Yes. For five years I was employed with the Florida
21 Fish and wildlife Conservation Commission.
22 Q And what were your duties with Florida wildlife?
23 A I was a law enforcement officer.
24 Q okay. And then what are your duties at the State
25 Attorney's office? 152 1 A I am an investigator. I work in the Jefferson
2 County office.
3 Q And as an investigator with the State Attorney's
4 Office, what kind of things do you do?
5 A we assist the attorneys prepping cases for trial,
6 interviews, locating witnesses, stuff such as that.
7 Q As an investigator, are you also called upon to
8 assist other law enforcement agencies in conducting an
9 investigation?
10 A Yes. There's oftentimes we do that.
11 Q In that capacity at the State Attorney's Office, did
12 you become involved in the disappearance of Mike Williams?
13 A Yes, I did.
14 Q How is it that you became involved?
15 A I was assigned the case when I came to the
16 Tallahassee Office in oh -- I believe it was around '06, '07.
17 Around '07,I believe.
18 Q Any particular reason you were assigned -- how many
19 investigators are at the State Attorney's Office?
20 A we have a total of about ten. I came in and kind of
21 inherited it from a person that had left.
22 Q okay. And who was that person?
23 A That was Ronnie Austin (phonetic).
24 Q You mentioned earlier that you had been involved
25 with FWC prior to that. Is that part of the reason you were 153 1 assigned this case?
2 A That's another reason for it. I had some background
3 in some of the initial stuff going on with the case. Not that
4 I was involved in it. But FWC was involved with a lot of it,
5 so I had some knowledge of what they would have been doing and
6 how that would have been handled.
7 Q And, just to be clear, you weren't involved in the
8 search back in December of 2000 for Mike Williams with FWC,
9 correct?
10 A No,I was not.
11 Q okay. You just kind of knew who the players were?
12 A Yes.
13 Q All right. How is it or why is it the State
14 Attorney's Office became involved in this investigation?
15 A Just another set of eyes. Somewhat of a liaison to
16 the other law enforcement officers in the case to, you know,
17 keep us in the loop and everybody working together as a team.
18 Q okay. And when was it that you became involved?
19 A It was around '07. Somewhere in that range.
20 Q Now, whenever Mike Williams first went missing it
21 was classified as a missing person. At some point did that
22 change and become a,I guess, suspicious death?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Or suspicious circumstances?
25 A Yes. 154 1 Q why is that?
2 A just the background surrounding it. I don't know
3 how much to go into it. But as a Fish and wildlife officer,
4 one of the things that I always -- we recovered bodies from
5 the water often. And I've never been to one that the body did
6 not float or was not recovered. So, you know, that became
7 suspicious in itself, the fact that we never had a body in the
8 water there.
9 Q Okay. were there any other circumstances there that
10 had happened between the disappearance of Mike Williams in
11 2007 that also gave rise to suspicious circumstances?
12 A During that time there were several -- some of the
13 stuff was evidence that was found, who found it. There was a
14 lot of that stuff that was -- there were missing parts of time
15 in people's alibis. Yeah. So there were several things that
16 were suspicious, to say the least.
17 Q Okay. And let's talk, if we can -- I assume when
18 you came in in 2007, did you also go back and review the prior
19 investigations and other things that had happened?
20 A Yes. Yes, sir.
21 Q Did you learn who people were as it relates to this?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Okay. So let's start talking about that.
24 A Okay.
25 Q Mike williams. who is Mike Williams? 155 1 A Mike williams was an adjustor for Clay Ketchum.
2 think it was Clay Ketchum is where he worked. Married to
3 Denise -- marital at the time is winchester -- or,I mean,
4 williams.
5 Q Okay. So Mike williams is married to Denise
6 Williams?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Did you become familiar with a person by the name of
9 Brian Winchester?
10 A Yes, I did.
11 Q Who was Brian Winchester?
12 A Brian was married to Kathy Winchester. They were
13 friends with the -- the two families were friends.
14 Q okay. At some point prior to 2007 did you become
15 aware that Brian Winchester and Denise Williams had become an
16 item and got married?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Did that factor into your -- into the suspicious
19 nature of all this?
20 A Yes. It was a suspicious matter, of course. Yes.
21 Q okay. In your involvement -- I know you talked
22 about you went back and reviewed certain things. Did you take
23 any efforts to try and get -- conduct your own investigation?
24 Find any kind of records?
25 A Yes, I did. 156 1 Q okay. what steps did you take?
2 A we looked into financial records, phone records. we
3 did other interviews when we would get leads on different
4 aspects. we followed it to wherever it would lead, you know,
5 picking up what we could, where we could.
6 Q Let's first talk about phone records.
7 A okay.
8 Q You're familiar with phone records as they exist
9 today, cell phone records and things like that?
10 A Yes.
11 Q was there something different about the phone
12 records as we talk about them back in 2000 versus where we are
13 today?
14 A Yes. It's a lot different. TO begin with, we
15 didn't have the little computer we all hold today. You know,
16 back then maybe you had a flip phone. But the text messaging
17 was a lot different. You know, there was no computer screen
18 there to type on. So what you could get was different. It
19 was emerging. There was no -- I think landlines and stuff you
20 could only get long distance stuff. You couldn't -- and so
21 there's a lot that was not available then that is available
22 now.
23 Q okay. Talk about the landlines. Did phone records
24 exist between local calls of landlines?
25 A No. 157 1 Q Okay. only long distance?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Did you take steps to get phone records back then?
4 A Yes.
5 Q what step did you take?
6 A we wrote up subpoenas. we did get some phone
7 records for more recent stuff. But trying to go back to the
8 2000 date range -- they only keep the records for so long. So
9 after about seven years -- I think it was seven years -- they
10 purge all the records.
11 Q Okay. And were you outside that time frame?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Did you go back and try and look for items that had
14 possibly been seized by law enforcement, specifically FWC?
15 waders? jackets? Things along those lines?
16 A Yes, we started trying -- at a point, trying to
17 kind of collect all this stuff and gather it into, you know,
18 one spot, one location. Because t was kind of -- at that
19 time -- it was a missing boater, you know, at one point. And
20 there was suspicions of whether he was in the lake or not.
21 And so we made a decision we needed to start to
22 gather everything together in case things started to change.
23 Q And were you able to find any of those items?
24 A Some of them.
25 Q what were you able to find? 158 1 A I think we found the boat. I believe we found the
2 boat. I may be incorrect on that. we did not find the
3 waders. we found a copy, I believe, of the -- I'm trying to
4 remember back now what all we actually found. There were bits
5 and pieces of clothing. Small things. Nothing too
6 substantial
7 Q Didyou everfindthe waders?
8 A No,we neverfoundthe waders.
9 Q jacket?
10 A No.
11 Q Okay. You said -- you mentioned the boat.
12 A Right.
13 Q Did you --
14 A That was never recovered. It was never put in --
15 impounded or seized for whatever reason.
16 Q what do you mean?
17 A I don't believe the boat was ever -- I could be
18 incorrect there, but i don't think we had it -- we didn't
19 have -- what I mean to say is, we didn't have it to process
20 it,I guess, in that manner.
21 Q Okay. So it wasn't seized initially, but you may
22 have come back and recovered it?
23 A Right. Exactly. That's what I'm trying to say.
24 Q Okay. Did you also take steps to get the certified
25 copies of death certificates and the petition to get that? 159 1 A Yes, we did.
2 Q I'm showing what's been previously marked as State's
3 Composite 7-A,B and C. Ask you to take a look at those
4 items.
5 A Okay.
6 Q Do you recognize those?
7 A Yes.
8 Q what do those appear to be?
9 A There's a petition for presumptive death
10 certificate, an order for presumptive death certificate and a
11 certificate of death.
12 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, at this time I'd move
13 certified copies of the petition of those items into
14 evidence as self -authenticating documents as Exhibit 7-A,
15 B and C.
16 THE COURT: Any objection?
17 MR. WAY: No objection, Your Honor.
18 THE COURT: 7-A,B and C will be admitted.
19 (State's Exhibit No. 7-A, B, C received in
20 evidence.)
21 BY MR. FUCHS:
22 Q Now, Mr. Sparkman, what is the date of that petition
23 for death certificate?
24 A Looks like it was signed on June 29, 2001.
25 Q Okay. Roughly six months after Mr. Williams went 160 1 missing?
2 A Yes. That would be correct.
3 Q Okay. During the course of your investigation did
4 you also learn of a possible insurance payout to Denise
5 Williams?
6 A Yes, we did.
7 Q Did that also heighten your suspicions as it relates
8 to the manner of death?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Okay. Showing you what's been previously marked as
11 State's ExhibitNo.8.
12 MR.FUCHS: Your Honor, mayIapproach?
13 THECOURT: You may.
14 BYMR.FUCHS:
15 Q Do you recognize that item?
16 A Yes.
17 Q What does that item appear to be?
18 A It's a marriage certificate for Brian Winchester and
19 Denise Williams.
20 MR.FUCHS: At this time I'd move State's Exhibit
21 No.8 into evidence as a self -authenticating certified
22 copy.
23 THECOURT: Any objection?
24 MR.WAY: Noobjection, Your Honor.
25 THECOURT: Be admitted. 161 1 (State's Exhibit No.8 received in evidence.)
2 BY MR. FUCHS:
3 Q And what is that again?
4 A A marriage certificate for Brian winchester and
5 Denise Williams.
6 Q Denise Williams?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And what's the date of that?
9 A The date on that was -- like, the date license
10 issued was November 11 -- or November 23, 2005. I'm sorry.
11 Q Okay. And looking at that marriage certificate,
12 does it show the date of marriage?
13 A Date of marriage, yes.
14 Q what is that date?
15 A December 3, 2005.
16 Q Thirteen days from the date of the anniversary of
17 the -- of Mike Williams going missing, correct?
18 A Correct. Yes.
19 MR. FUCHS: No further questions.
20 THE COURT: Cross?
21 CROSS- EXAMINATION
22 BY MR. WAY:
23 Q Good afternoon, Investigator Sparkman.
24 A Good afternoon.
25 Q Your involvement in this case began, I believe you 162 1 testified, several years after the disappearance of Mike
2 williams; isn't that true?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q Because isn't it true you were -- if I recall
5 correctly -- you were in the FWC Academy at the time of the
6 disappearance in 2000?
7 A Yes.
8 Q So when we're talking about time frames on some of
9 these things, would it be fair to say that there's quite a
10 number of years between some of the events that you just
11 testified to? As many as five years and, as we sit here
12 today, as many as almost 18 years from the disappearance,
13 correct?
14 A Yes.
15 Q During the course of your investigation you learned
16 that Brian Winchester and Denise Williams had gone to school
17 together, correct?
18 A Correct.
19 Q In fact, they'd gone to kindergarten together as
20 three-year-ol ds?
21 A I believe so. From what I've heard.
22 Q They've known each other almost their entire lives?
23 A Seems so.
24 THE COURT: Make sure you speak to the microphone,
25 Investigator Sparkman, so we hear you, please. 163 1 THE WITNESS: Okay.
2 BY MR. WAY:
3 Q I'm sorry, could you repeat the answer?
4 A Yeah, it would seem so.
5 Q And you were also aware, based on your
6 investigation, that both Mike Williams and Kathy -- now Kathy
7 Thomas, at the time Kathy Aldridge, all attended North Florida
8 Christian together, correct?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And they went to college together, correct?
11 A I don't know about the college.
12 Q But from the time that they graduated from high
13 school they were -- and even before, they were close friends?
14 A It would seem so, yes.
15 Q And, as it at least relates to Mr. Winchester and
16 Ms. Williams, they'd known each other for quite a significant
17 amount of time?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Now, you testified earlier about the issue of
20 something becoming a suspicious death.
21 A Yes.
22 Q Is it fair to say that in your line of work a spouse
23 in a missing person or homicide is generally always a suspect?
24 A Yes.
25 Q That's something you learn almost day one on missing 164 1 persons, homicide. Suspect [sic] is very closely tied to
2 being a principal suspect?
3 A well, yeah, you'd look at them.
4 Q i'm probably going to need you to speak up a little,
5 please, Investigator Sparkman.
6 A okay. Yes.
7 Q That's okay. As t related to the death certificate
8 that you just testified to, you were -- in the course of your
9 investigation, you looked into the procurement of the
10 certificate of death in 2001, correct?
11 A Yes.
12 Q You've also reviewed, and it's been introduced into
13 evidence, a death certificate, correct?
14 A Correct.
15 Q You've seen death certificates before, correct?
16 A Yes.
17 Q You can also get a death certificate that says
18 homicide?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And that could generally be issued much quicker once
21 a person is determined to have been murdered. Is that your
22 experience and understanding?
23 A I -- I mean, I don't know specifically, no.
24 Q well, as it relates to the exhibit that was just
25 introduced, in terms of obtaining the death certificate, had 165 1 you ever seen one of those petitions before?
2 A A petition for death?
3 Q No. The petition to obtain a death certificate in
4 the particular circumstances we're dealing with here?
5 A No.
6 Q Where someoneTs missing?
7 A No.
8 Q Never seen one of those before?
9 A No.
10 Q During the course of your investigation, did you
11 learn that's a very rare and very difficult process to utilize
12 to obtain a presumptive death certificate?
13 A I've never seen one, so I would expect it to be
14 rare.
15 Q Haven't seen one since either, have you?
16 A No.
17 Q In the time frame that we're talking about, just so
18 that we're clear, when Mike Williams went missing, the
19 President of the united States of America was Bill Clinton.
20 A You're testing my history.
21 Q well, you remember that around this time in December
22 of 2000 we had the Bush/Gore issues?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Essentially it consumed this entire courthouse, as a
25 matter of record. 166 1 A Yes.
2 Q The time that we're talking about in terms of when
3 this marriage certificate was obtained is 2005. To the best
4 of your recollection, is President George W. Bush the
5 president at that point in time?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Quite a long period of time had actually -- had gone
8 from when the missing fisherman or missing hunter, Mike
9 williams, went hunting until the time that this wedding took
10 place in December of 2005?
11 A I guess it'd be about five years.
12 Q About five years. And in the intervening period of
13 time from the five years, did you, in the course of your
14 investigation, discover that Ms. Williams had been involved in
15 a romantic relationship with one Charles Bunker?
16 A Yes, we did.
17 Q All right. And when was that time frame?
18 A I don't know the exact date on that.
19 Q But it was prior to 2005, correct?
20 A Correct.
21 Q And it was a longer -term relationship. It may have
22 been over several years, do you recall that?
23 A I don't recall the exact amount of time on it. But
24 I do know there was a relationship.
25 Q okay. And it was a relationship of a personal 167 1 nature?
2 A Asfar as weknow, yes.
3 Q Andthey weredating?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And when you say, as far as we know, did you ever
6 interview Charles Bunker?
7 A I, personally, did not.
8 Q All right. You had indicated earlier in some of
9 your questioning about what raised your suspicion was
10 insurance. In your experience as an investigator of 18 years,
11 do you believe that life insurance pays out when someone is
12 believed to have passed away?
13 A As far as I've seen, yes.
14 Q And the purpose of having life insurance may be to
15 payout in the event of untimely demise?
16 A Yes.
17 Q So the fact that a life insurance policy is paid is
18 not particularly anything that makes you suspicious?
19 A The payment of it, no.
20 Q During the course of your investigation, did you
21 determine that Brian Winchester worked for his father, Marcus
22 Winchester?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And what kind of work did they do?
25 A Insurance sales. 168 1 Q And during the course of your investigation into the
2 insurance sales, were you able to determine whether or not
3 Marcus winchester and Brian winchester had a good business?
4 were they selling lots of policies?
5 A As far as we could tell, yes.
6 Q Okay. And do you know if they sold a policy to
7 other friends and family from the time that they went to North
8 Florida Christian?
9 A That, I don't know.
10 Q But it wasn't uncommon for you to see that Marcus or
11 Brian Winchester had sold insurance policies to people?
12 A No. It was not.
13 Q And you knew from your investigation that Brian
14 Winchester and Mike Williams were very close friends?
15 A Yes.
16 Q During the course of your investigation, were you
17 able to determine whether or not on Friday, December 15, 2000,
18 the day before Mike Williams went missing, were you able to
19 determine whether or not Brian Winchester and his wife, Kathy
20 Winchester, and Denise Williams and her husband Mike Williams
21 traveled to Thomasville, Georgia for the Victorian Christmas?
22 MR. FUCHS: I'm going to object. That calls for
23 hearsay.
24 THE COURT: Sustained.
25 169 1 BY MR. WAY:
2 Q when you talked about phone records, in the period
3 of time -- you talked about seven years --
4 A uh-huh.
5 Q -- being a date that seemed to be a range that you
6 could go back. So what year would you have begun looking for
7 phone records?
8 A I started looking -- well, I tried to get those -- I
9 think it was about eight years after the death, so it would
10 have been about 2008.
11 Q All right. So you didn't begin to start looking for
12 records until 2008?
13 A Not for those records, no. It was a suspicious --
14 or a missing person up until that point. And then it started
15 gathering. And it was one of those things that we decided we
16 should try and get those also.
17 Q Do you know where Ms. Williams was working in say,
18 2000? Prior to the disappearance, do you know where she
19 worked?
20 A No,I do not.
21 Q Do you know where Mr. Winchester -- well, you knew
22 Mr. Winchester was working for his father?
23 A uh-huh.
24 Q So you never went back to Ms. Williams' employer to
25 check to see if they had phone records or anything that would 170 1 indicate whether there were any calls or communications with
2 anyone?
3 A If they were local calls we would not have had any
4 information on them anyway.
5 Q well, let me ask you a question. You say that with
6 some certainty that you wouldn't have known. But what if
7 someone had called and left a message? Did you go back and
8 look for hard message pads?
9 A No,I did not.
10 Q Did you go back and look for any in the office
11 routing or anything that would suggest, hey, you got a phone
12 call from so and so?
13 A No.
14 Q Did you ever obtain any credit card receipts or
15 anything that would suggest that there was any communication
16 or anything between Mr. Winchester and Ms. Williams for, say,
17 the time period of 2000?
18 A No. we tried to get the financial records, but they
19 were also purged.
20 Q Did you go and just beat the grass and look for
21 eyewi tnesses?
22 A That's what our investigation was.
23 Q But you didn't find any, did you?
24 A Not on that aspect, no. we didn't.
25 Q When you were involved in the investigation, 171 1 Investigator Sparkman, you were at that time with the State
2 Attorney's Office, correct?
3 A Correct.
4 Q were thereother agencies that were involved with
5 the investigation asyou understood it?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And thoseagencies include the Florida Department of
8 Law Enforcement?
9 A They wereone of them.
10 Q The JacksonCounty Sheriff's Office?
11 A Yes.
12 Q The Departmentof Financial Services?
13 A Yes.
14 Q The unitedStates Government Alcohol Tobacco and
15 FirearmService?
16 A Yes.
17 Q was thereanyone I missed?
18 A No. Not atthat time.
19 MR. WAY: Nothing further, Your Honor.
20 THE COURT: Redirect?
21 MR. FUCHS: Yes, Your Honor.
22 REDIRECTEXAMINATION
23 BY MR. FUCHS:
24 Q Mr. Way asked you about the life insurance policies.
25 Not suspicious in themselves?That's what life insurance -- 172 1 A Not in themselves, no.
2 Q Life insurance policies, that's what they do,
3 correct?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Okay. He also asked you some questions about
6 certificate of death. It's a lot easier to get on a homicide,
7 correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q It would be fair to say that when you have a
10 homicide you typically have a body?
11 A Correct.
12 Q That would show the person is dead?
13 A Yes.
14 Q In this particular case, we did not?
15 A we did not.
16 Q Okay. And the steps that were taken, as Mr. Way
17 pointed out, that a declaration or certificate for death in a
18 missing person is a rare circumstance?
19 A Yes.
20 Q In fact, you've never seen it?
21 A No.
22 Q So, in other words, Ms. Williams took great length
23 and went to great length and took a lot of steps in order to
24 get this particular death certificate?
25 A Correct. 173 1 Q And you can't get a life insurance payout for death
2 unless you have a death certificate, correct?
3 A That's correct.
4 Q Okay. One of the other questions that was asked has
5 to do with the spouse is always looked at on a homicide
6 initially?
7 A Yes.
8 Q During your training and experience in 18 years of
9 law enforcement, one of those things is someone who is known
10 to the missing person or the deceased person as a suspect,
11 correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q what is another aspect that is looked at as it
14 relates to finding out the motive behind a killing?
15 A well, I mean, one of the things is the old adage of
16 follow the money. See who benefits. where the motives are.
17 Q Follow the money and follow the person that knows
18 them?
19 A Yes.
20 Q The spouse?
21 A Correct.
22 MR. FUCHS: No further questions.
23 THE COURT: All right. Any juror have a question of
24 this witness?
25 (No audible response.) 174 1 THECOURT: All right. You can step down. want to
2 keephimsubject to recall?
3 MR.FUCHS: He would be, Your Honor.
4 THECOURT: All right. You'll be subject to recall.
5 Whydon't we take ten minutes. Let the jury step
6 out.
7 (Juryexits.)
8 THECOURT: Does either side need anything?
9 MR.FUCHS: No, Your Honor.
10 MR.WAY: No, Your Honor.
11 (Arecess was had.)
12 THECOURT: Are y'all ready for the jury?
13 MR.WAY: Yes, Your Honor.
14 THECOURT: All right. Let's have the jury, please.
15 MR.FUCHS: Yes, Your Honor.
16 MR.WAY: Your Honor, in this case Mr. Padovano will
17 be handlingthe cross.
18 THECOURT: okay.
19 (Juryenters.)
20 THECOURT: Everybody be seated.
21 Ifyou would face the clerk and be sworn, please,
22 sir.
23 whereupon,
24 MICHAEL DEVANEY,
25 was calledasa witness, having been first duly sworn, was 175 1 examined and testified as follows:
2 THE COURT: Have a seat. Slide up to the
3 microphone, please, sir.
4 You may proceed, Mr. Fuchs.
5 MR. FUCHS: Thank you, Your Honor.
6 DIRECT EXAMINATION
7 BY MR. FUCHS:
8 Q Good afternoon, sir.
9 A Good afternoon.
10 Q Can you please introduce yourself to the jurors?
11 A My name is Michael Devaney. I was formerly with the
12 Florida Department of Law Enforcement for a little over 37
13 years.
14 Q okay. And you say formerly --
15 A Yeah. Vm now retired.
16 Q okay. And with the Florida Department of Law
17 Enforcement, what duties did you have?
18 A For the last about 20 years before I retired I was
19 on a violent crime squad. My main responsibilities were
20 working child abuse cases and violent crime.
21 Q Okay. Are you a sworn -- or were you a sworn law
22 enforcement officer?
23 A Yes, sir,I was.
24 Q So you were an investigator?
25 A Yes, sir,I was. 176 1 Q In working those kind of cases, I'm assuming you're
2 talking about conducting investigation, reviewing police
3 reports, things along those lines?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q Interviewing witnesses?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q in that capacity did you have occasion to become
8 involved in the Mike Williams' disappearance?
9 A Yes, sir,I did.
10 Q How is it that you became involved initially?
11 A Basically, back in 2010 there had been an agent that
12 had been working this case, he and other agents. He was
13 promoted. i was assigned this case from that point on.
14 And again, we started an immense review of all the
15 information that had been gathered at that time.
16 Q when you say an immense review, what do you mean?
17 A Basically, one of the -- my main task was -- is to
18 take information that had been gathered since year 2000 by
19 FWC, Florida wildlife Commission, other law enforcement
20 agencies, state attorney's investigators, at least three other
21 special agents with FDLE. Conduct a review of all of those
22 cases and just, basically, try to get a handle on it.
23 Q okay. Now, you're talking at 2010. Ten years
24 after -- roughly ten years after the disappearance of Mike
25 Williams? 177 1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q And you're going back and reviewing it?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q would it be fair to say that you're reviewing it
5 because it hadn't been solved?
6 A Correct.
7 Q A cold case, if you will?
8 A It was.
9 Q And, essentially, review would be a new set of eyes
10 on it for an evaluation, correct?
11 A Yes, sir. coming into it I knew very little about
12 the case. So, basically, it was a new set of eyes.
13 Q okay. And what was the purpose for you to come in
14 and do it at that particular time? Had anything developed or
15 it was just a take another crack at it?
16 A what we wanted to do was, again, review everything
17 there was about this case to see was there anything that was
18 missed. Talk to the other investigators who had been involved
19 in this. And try to develop maybe leads or new information.
20 of course, we -- we had a real situation in that
21 when this case was first investigated, it was not investigated
22 as any type of a crime. It was a missing person's report. So
23 we had to examine that. And we realized that a lot of
24 information that we maybe could have had at that time, it was
25 lost. 178 1 Q Okay. when you say it's lost, what do you mean?
2 A well, basically, this whole situation back in
3 December of 2000, it was handled by various agencies as a
4 missing person's report from Lake Seminole. There were items
5 that were left at the scene, items gathered. But they weren't
6 treated as evidence, per se, as you would in a normal criminal
7 investigation.
8 So when we had to look at this, you know, again in
9 2010, those items -- those items were gone. we had
10 photographs of that information. But as far as the ability to
11 do any sort of an analysis, again, that was gone.
12 Q And, just for clarification, let's say -- I know a
13 boat was recovered in this particular case?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q under normal circumstances with a homicide
16 investigation you would take steps in order to do a forensic
17 examination of a boat, would you not?
18 A Absolutely. A boat would have been seized. would
19 have been examined at the scene. And eventually would go back
20 to a forensic laboratory, such as the one at FDLE. And there
21 would have been an analysis of that boat and everything inside
22 the boat.
23 Q But that was not done in this situation because it
24 was a missing person's, correct?
25 A Correct. 179 1 Q Same thing with waders that were recovered and other
2 items such as that, correct?
3 A Absolutely.
4 Q would it be fair to say that handcuffed the
5 investigation in a lot of ways?
6 A It did. Because we didn't have those items to
7 examine. The one thing we had is, basically, interviews
8 conducted at the time by the people there on the scene in the
9 year 2000.
10 Q okay. Now, it had been originally classified as a
11 missing person.
12 A Correct.
13 Q You're now taking a new set of eyes at it. Had the,
14 I guess the title of it, if you will, changed? was it still a
15 missing person's? Had it been declared a homicide? what was
16 the status of the investigation?
17 A Basically, it had changed in 2004. Now it was a
18 suspicious missing person.
19 Q what does that mean?
20 A Basically, we could not prove or had no information
21 it was a homicide. But taking the information in its total,
22 you know, just, a lot of things didn't quite make sense.
23 There was a lot of things that we needed to rule out that we
24 really could not rule out, as far as this being any sort of an
25 accidental death. There were too many things that were i:i 1 unanswered.
2 Q In 2010 were there particular persons that were
3 being looked at as possible suspects?
4 A In 2010, going back a little bit, once I, again, was
5 assigned the case, I had a lot of stuff to review. A lot of
6 people to talk to. And what we decided to do in December of
7 that same year was to bring most of those investigators
8 together, along with an investigator from Tallahassee P.D. and
9 Leon County S.O. and sit down and talk about this case. Put
10 everything on the table, per se.
11 I conducted a Power Point investigation. Again,
12 went over every aspect of information that we knew. And at
13 the end of that, we came up with some ideas. And with that we
14 did develop persons of interest.
15 Q And who would those persons of interest be?
16 A It would have been Denise Winchester and Brian
17 winchester.
18 Q And at that time Denise and Brian had been married,
19 correct?
20 A Correct. They were married, I believe, in 2005.
21 Q And what is it that made them possible suspects? Or
22 suspi ci ous?
23 A well, you have to go back. There were several
24 things. The investigators that were assigned to this case,
25 including myself, we were very uneasy about the insurance 181 1 situation. we realized it was Brian that reached out to try
2 to find out what it would take to get Mike declared dead. It
3 was Brian that did that. we found out that Brian actually
4 sold a million dollar insurance policy to Mike just before his
5 death. That needed to be researched. we had problems --
6 Q Let me stop you right there.
7 A I'm sorry.
8 Q Talking about the insurance policy. was Brian a
9 benefactor of the insurance policy?
10 A I believe he was.
11 Q was he -- did the payout go to him or did it go to
12 Deni se?
13 A Denise.
14 Q So the payout of the insurance policy would be to
15 Deni se?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q Okay. So at this point -- at 2010, upon the review
18 and everything like that, no arrests were made at that
19 particular time, correct?
20 A No, sir.
21 Q would it be fair to say that, basically, the case,
22 despite the review, was still in the cold -case status and
23 unsol ved?
24 A It was a cold case, but it was certainly not
25 ignored. we were hoping to have developments. I mean, we 182 1 certainly examined, you know, the behaviors of both Denise and
2 Brian between that time and later on. Again, they were sort
3 of under a microscope by our agency.
4 Q okay. Did things change in August of 2016?
5 A They did.
6 Q What happened?
7 A Brian was arrested for the alleged kidnapping of
8 Denise.
9 Q were you informed of that investigation?
10 A I was. One of our supervisory special agents was
11 contacted by David McCranie with the Tallahassee Police
12 Department that there had been a situation where Denise had
13 been kidnapped. And that she was en route to the Leon County
14 sheriff's office to meet with an investigator about the
15 incident that occurred earlier that day.
16 Q Let me stop you right there. David McCranie is --
17 you said he's with Tallahassee Police Department?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q Does he have any other significance as it relates to
20 this case?
21 A He is Denise's brother-in-law. He is married to one
22 of Denise's sisters.
23 Q okay. So Florida Department of Law Enforcement is
24 contacted about this situation, that she was en route to the
25 Leon County Sheriffs Department? 183 1 A Yes, sir. And then I was contacted by the
2 supervisory special agent. And once we found out that she was
3 en route to the sheriff's office, I obtained the assistance
4 from another agent, will Mickler. Contact was made with
5 Investigations, Leon County 5.0. we found out that Denise was
6 currently being interviewed by one of their investigators and
7 we went straight to the Leon County sheriff's office to the
8 Investigations unit to, basically, monitor what was going on.
9 Q Okay. when you say, monitor what was going on, what
10 does that mean?
11 A well, she was being interviewed in a specialized
12 interview room at Leon County S.0. when i mean specialized,
13 it was -- basically, there was a videotape where you could sit
14 in another room and you could hear and listen to that
15 interview.
16 Q okay. And did you -- were you listening in at that
17 point?
18 A Yes, sir. I was partially listening, also getting
19 information for the investigators that were in the
20 Investigations unit at that time.
21 Q Okay. Did you have an occasion to actually go in
22 and speak with Ms. Williams?
23 A Yes, I did. Once her interview was completed by the
24 investigator, Mr. McCranie took some time to talk to her.
25 Then I obtained permission to go in and talk to Denise. I: 1 Q All right. And did you do so?
2 A Yes, sir,I did.
3 Q Now, at that point she's not detained? She's not --
4 A No, sir.
5 Q -- being arrested or any of that stuff, correct?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q okay. Did you ask her about Brian being involved in
8 Mike williams' disappearance?
9 A Yes, sir. After talking to Denise for a few
10 minutes, explaining who I was, who I worked for and our
11 interest in the case,I tried to talk to her about that there
12 may be a connection between what happened that day and the
13 disappearance of Mike. In other words, because of the
14 activity of Brian that day, you know, there may be some
15 culpability there.
16 She did not agree to that. She told me that if she
17 had any indication, any belief that Brian may have done
18 something to her husband at the time, she certainly would not
19 have married him.
20 Q okay. Now, it's my understanding that
21 Mr. Winchester had held a gun to her?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q Had kidnapped her?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q Made her drive somewhere? 185 1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q Maybe, possibly had some items of bleach in the car
3 and tarps and things along those lines?
4 A That's what I understand. Yes, sir.
5 Q And when you asked her about his involvement in Mike
6 williams she says, certainly not?
7 A Correct.
8 Q Never, no?
9 A Yeah. I tried to convince her that everything that
10 was gathered and all the information that was there, that
11 certainly could have been the last day of her life. I was
12 trying to impress upon her this, but it didn't seem to
13 connect.
14 Q At any point did she say, you know, all these years
15 later i never believed he would have, but given what happened
16 today, maybe it was true?
17 A No, sir.
18 Q Nothing along those lines?
19 A No, sir.
20 Q Flat out denial?
21 A Denial.
22 Q Do you see Ms. Williams here in the courtroom today?
23 A Yes, sir,I do.
24 Q Can you please point to her and indicate an article
25 of clothing she's wearing? 186 1 A Yes. she's sitting over here to my right, blond
2 hair. she's wearing a pink -type of garment with a white under
3 blouse.
4 MR. FUCHS: May the record please reflect he's
5 indicated the defendant, Ms. Denise Williams.
6 No further questions.
7 THE COURT: Cross?
8 CROSS- EXAMINATION
9 BY MR. PADAVANO:
10 Q Agent Devaney, let me start where you left off, with
11 the questioning of Denise Williams.
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q How many -- how many law enforcement officers were
14 there at that time?
15 A In the room with me?
16 Q Yes.
17 A None.
18 Q Well, beforehand there were other people questioning
19 her, right?
20 A Yes, sir. There was -- initially I believe it was
21 Paul salvo with the Leon County sheriff's Office. I think he
22 was in charge of that investigation. After Mr. Salvo, then
23 Mr. McCranie talked to Denise for a few minutes. And after
24 that, I talked to her.
25 Q And you confronted her with your suspicion that she 187 1 was involved in the murder?
2 A Basically what I asked Denise flat out was, about,
3 you know, do you know where Mike is buried. And she says, no,
4 I do not.
5 Q And, now, it's fair to say you were pretty tough on
6 her during that interview, weren't you?
7 A I don't think I was tough on her. Basically, I
8 wouldn't consider this an interview with her. People keep
9 referring to this as an interview. I look at it as a contact.
10 I wanted Denise to know that FDLE was involved in the
11 disappearance of Mike and had been, you know, since the very
12 beginning. No,I don't think I was tough on her at all.
13 i mean, this was not a preplanned contact. This was
14 certainly spur of the moment. And if anybody views this, they
15 realize I was not rough on her at all.
16 Q But you are a trained law enforcement officer. And
17 I assume that you have techniques that you use to get people
18 to admit to crimes, would that be fair to say?
19 A At times. But there, again, this was not a
20 preplanned contact. If it was, you know, there would have
21 been a lot more preparation with this. A lot more, you know,
22 questions lined up ahead of time. And the circumstances would
23 have been different.
24 This was sort of on the cuff. Again,I just want to
25 let her know that FDLE was involved in this. 1 Q But, ultimately, she told you she had no knowledge
2 of any of it, right?
3 A Correct.
4 Q Okay. Now, I'd like to go back to -- your
5 investigation of this case spanned a pretty long period of
6 time off and on,I guess, right?
7 A As far as my participation?
8 Q Yes.
9 A Yes, sir. Since 2010.
10 Q And I realize there were some things that were done
11 early on that you were basically looking over, that you didn't
12 do yourself?
13 A Correct.
14 Q So I'd like to go back to -- if I understand
15 correctly, the allegation that was made was that Denise
16 Williams helped Brian Winchester plan the murder. She talked
17 to him about it. And what I'd like to ask you is if you're
18 aware of any evidence that she took any action in furtherance
19 of that plan? If she committed any overt act to make that
20 happen?
21 A Any overt act, no, sir.
22 Q I'm sorry?
23 A No, sir. I don't.
24 Q No. okay. And let me ask you now about the crime a
25 little bit more broadly. And I don't want to ask you about 1 what people told you. I realize you -- I realize that you
2 talked to lots of people in the course of your investigation.
3 A Sure.
4 Q But what you were able to determine -- were you able
5 to uncover any physical or tangible evidence that you feel
6 connects Denise Williams to this murder?
7 A No tangible evidence, no, sir.
8 Q No. And how long did you work on this?
9 A On and off since 2010.
10 Q And you did an immense review. This is Mr. Fuchs'
11 term. You did an immense review?
12 A Correct.
13 Q Is that right?
14 A Correct.
15 Q And so this immense review did not reveal any
16 tangible or physical evidence to connect this defendant to the
17 cri me?
18 A Not until the arrest of Mr. Winchester.
19 Q well, i know what he told you. I'm not talking
20 about what somebody told you.
21 A Sure. okay.
22 Q I'm talking about physical evidence.
23 A No, sir.
24 Q All right. I have just one more area that I want to
25 explore with you. And that is the -- and I realize this is 190 1 before your -- before you got involved in it, but the period
2 of '97 to 2000. And there was some discussion, I think, that
3 you had about telephone records. Correct me if I'm wrong, I
4 don't know if you -- maybe that was -- I'm sorry. Maybe that
5 was Investigator Sparkman who was saying that.
6 So let me just ask this question: Do you know
7 what -- and I'm not sure this is a law enforcement term, so
8 tell me if it's not.
9 A Okay.
10 Q But if i use the term credit-card surveillance,
11 would that ring a bell with you? It would make some sense to
12 you?
13 A Maybe credit-card examination, but not surveillance.
14 Q Examination, what would that be?what would that
15 entail?
16 A Basically, going over credit card records of an
17 individual
18 Q And why would you be doing that on a particular
19 investigation?
20 A Trying to get a tracking or a history of
21 expenditures by that individual.
22 Q So -- so, just to give the jury an example, if I
23 went to Starbucks this morning and bought a cup of coffee at
24 20 minutes after nine, and I paid for it with a credit card,
25 you could get my credit card record, you could subpoena that 191 1 and prove that Phil Padovano was at Starbucks at 9:20 in the
2 morning in Tallahassee?
3 A In this day and age you could do that.
4 Q All right. And in the same way, you could construct
5 a whole narrative of where people -- assuming they use credit
6 cards -- where they go? What they do and where they go?
7 A This day and age you can do that, yes, sir.
8 Q Let me ask you, you say, this day and age. Was
9 there not MasterCard and visa and American Express in 1997?
10 A Yes, there were. Yes, sir.
11 Q Did you look and see if Brian Winchester had one of
12 those credit cards?
13 A Maybe some of the people before I had this case may
14 have looked at it.
15 Q Are you aware of anyone who looked at his credit
16 cards?
17 A Not off the top of my head.
18 Q So if he used his credit cards to buy flowers for
19 Denise Williams or something like that, you would have no
20 idea?
21 A No, sir.
22 Q If he used his credit card to pay for a hotel room,
23 you would have no idea?
24 A I'm not sure the recordkeeping -- that would have
25 been, you know, the same back then that it is now. I have no 192 1 idea.
2 Q well, let's -- let's -- let's go back to that. Are
3 you saying that we didn't have MasterCard and American Express
4 and --
5 A we did.
6 Q -- and visa cards in 1997?
7 A No, we did.
8 Q we did?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q And we had subpoenas in 1997, did we not?
11 A we did.
12 Q So if somebody in law enforcement -- and please
13 believe me, I'm not trying to criticize your work.
14 A Sure.
15 Q i realize this is something that happened after you
16 got -- I mean, before you got involved in the case.
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q So let me just say law enforcement, generally --
19 A uh-huh.
20 Q -- could have figured out with credit cards,
21 assuming he used a credit card, where he was? If he was
22 courting Denise during that period of time, someone could have
23 maybe found some evidence of that?
24 A If subpoenas would have been issued, there's a
25 chance of that, yes, sir. 193 1 Q Okay. But as there is, there is no evidence of
2 that, other than what Brian winchester says?
3 A Correct.
4 Q Thank you.
5 THE COURT: Redirect?
6 MR. FUCHS: Yes, Your Honor.
7 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
8 BY MR. FUCHS:
9 Q The question was asked, if you issued a subpoena in
10 1997 could you have gotten the credit cards.
11 A Could I have gotten the credit cards?
12 Q If you had issued a subpoena in 1997, that was the
13 question that was asked, correct?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q In 1997 Mike Williams was still alive, was he not?
16 A He was.
17 Q In 2000, three years after 1997, when he was
18 missing, at that point he was a missing person, was he not?
19 A Correct.
20 Q And it wasn't until many, many years later when
21 Florida Department of Law Enforcement and the State Attorney's
22 Office reviewed it in 2007, 2008, 2009,'10, that they became
23 suspicious circumstances that would have necessitated those
24 records, correct?
25 A Correct. 194 1 Q Prior to those dates there is a -- those records
2 aren't maintained by the bank groups, visa, MasterCard,
3 American Express indefinitely, are they not?
4 A That's correct.
5 Q In fact, there were efforts made by law enforcement
6 to go back and get those records, but they had been purged?
7 A That's what I understand, yes, sir.
8 Q Even further along, back in 1997, 2000, what we're
9 talking about, it's a different time period with credit cards
10 and everything like that? People still wrote checks, did they
11 not?
12 A Correct.
13 Q Okay. Banking records are obtainable, but, again,
14 you have to know to obtain them, correct?
15 A Correct.
16 Q Cash can never be tracked?
17 A True.
18 Q The last question about no tangible evidence, no
19 overt act was done by Ms. Williams -- Ms. winchester. Fair to
20 say if there had been an overt act or tangible evidence, she
21 probably would have been arrested prior to the time she was,
22 correct?
23 A Correct.
24 Q The nature of a conspiracy is to keep those secrets,
25 is it not? 195 1 A Correct.
2 Q And, in fact,because they remained a secret for as
3 long as itdid, until2016 when Brian winchester confessed,
4 they werepretty goodat keeping that secret, were they not?
5 A very good.
6 MR. FUCHS: No further questions.
7 THE COURT: All right. Any juror have a question of
8 thiswitness?
9 (No audibleresponse.)
10 THE COURT: All right. You can step down.
11 we need tokeep him further?
12 MR. FUCHS: He'll be retained, Your Honor. But
13 certainlyhe canbe about his business.
14 THE COURT: All right. Remain on call.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
16 THE COURT: Call your next witness.
17 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, at this time we need to take
18 a --conduct mattersoutside the --
19 THE COURT: All right. Please let the jury step
20 out.
21 (Jury exits.)
22 THE COURT: we need to have Mr. Winchester brought
23 in.
24 IsMr. Jansenhere, Mr.Fuchs?
25 MR.FUCHS: I'mgoing toget him, Your Honor. 196 1 THE COURT: If you could face the clerk and be
2 sworn, please. Raise your right hand, please, sir.
3 Whereupon,
4 BRIAN WINCHESTER,
5 was called as a witness, having been first duly sworn, was
6 examined and testified as follows:
7 THE COURT: Have a seat please, sir.
8 Mr. Jansen, do you wish to be heard?
9 MR. JANSEN: Yes, Your Honor. My client is going to
10 invoke his Fifth Amendment right to self-incrimination at
11 this point.
12 THE COURT: All right. Is the State asking that I
13 compel his testimony?
14 MR. FUCHS: The State is so requesting, Your Honor.
15 He's here under the subpoena for the State of Florida.
16 THE COURT: All right. Mr. winchester, the State of
17 Florida has asked that I compel your testimony. I do
18 direct that you answer any questions. Any testimony that
19 you give cannot be used against you, or the fruits of
20 what you say cannot be used against you. It is immunized
21 by the State's request. Therefore, I would direct that
22 you answer the questions.
23 Anything else, Mr. Jansen?
24 MR. JANSEN: Yes, Your Honor. we would request that
25 all questioning by the defense lawyers and questions by 197 1 the potential jurors and the Court would also be under
2 that umbrella of immunity.
3 THE COURT: All right. Is the State requesting
4 that?
5 MR. FUCHS: Yes, Your Honor.
6 THE COURT: All right. So that will be so ordered.
7 MR. JANSEN: And you've already done this, Judge.
8 think it's an order dated on the 20th of September. But
9 we wanted to preserve it on the record today.
10 THE COURT: My ruling is consistent with the order I
11 previously entered.
12 MR. JANSEN: Thank you, Your Honor.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 This may take a while. So why don't we go ahead and
15 take a quick five-minute break. we probably won't get
16 the jury back in here that quick.
17 (A recess was had.)
18 THE COURT: Let's get the jury, please.
19 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, just so that you know, we're
20 having a little technical difficulties with the
21 microphone on the witness stand. we're trying to get it
22 fixed, I think. But it's not picking anything up. I
23 don't know what to do.
24 THE COURT: well, I'm not very adept in this
25 courtroom, so.. . But the court reporter is right there, 1 that shouldn't be a big problem.
2 MR. FUCHS: well, she's the one that brought the
3 issue up, so.
4 THE COURT: well, she's going to have to deal with
5 it. Let's have the jury.
6 (Jury enters.)
7 THE COURT: Everybody be seated, please.
8 Call your next witness.
9 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, at this time the State would
10 call Brian Winchester.
11 THE COURT: And Mr. Winchester's been sworn outside
12 your presence.
13 You may proceed.
14 MR. FUCHS: Thank you, Your Honor.
15 DIRECT EXAMINATION
16 BY MR. FUCHS:
17 Q Good afternoon.
18 A Good afternoon.
19 Q I need you to speak up a little bit.
20 A Good afternoon.
21 THE COURT: That microphone is not doing much, so
22 we'll just need to speak up a little louder for us,
23 please.
24 All right.
25 BY MR. FUCHS: 199 1 Q Can you please introduce yourself to the jurors.
2 A Brianwinchester.
3 Q And,Mr. winchester, how old are you?
4 A Forty-eight.
5 Q okay. Mr. winchester, do you know or did you know
6 Mike Williams?
7 A Yes,sir.
8 Q Priorto 2000, how did you know Mike Williams?
9 A Mikeand i went to high school together and got to
10 know eachothervery well. We were very good friends. We
11 continuedto befriends all through college and all through
12 our marrying --getting married. And we were very good
13 friends. He wasa very good friend.
14 Q Priorto 2000, were you married?
15 A Yes,sir.
16 Q And whowere you married to?
17 A Kathy.
18 Q okay. And how long had you known Kathy prior to
19 2000?
20 A From high school.
21 Q Would you, Mike and her all go to high school and
22 college together?
23 A The four of us all went to high school together,
24 yes, sir.
25 Q who is the fourth? 200 1 A Denise.
2 Q Okay. And what was Denise's relationship to Mike?
3 A Denise and Mike were high school sweethearts. My
4 wife, Kathy, and I were high school sweethearts. we all dated
5 in high school and off and on through college. And then ended
6 up all getting married.
7 Q okay. And itTs my understanding both -- that you
8 and Kathy had a child.
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q Little boy?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And that Mike and Denise had a little girl.
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q were they roughly the same age?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q At some point did you and Denise become an item, I
17 guess, if you will, prior to 2000?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q when was that?
20 A when did it start?
21 Q Yes, sir.
22 A It -- I mean, the date that we used was October 13,
23 1997. But there was a lot that led up to that point. A lot
24 of background.
25 Q Let's talk about what led up to that point. 201 1 A As I said, she married her high school sweetheart.
2 I married my high school sweetheart. And, at fist, things
3 were really good,I think, with all of us. But I was not a
4 great husband and spent a lot of time away doing hobbies and
5 just stupid stuff.
6 And at one point I found a note in my first wife,
7 Kathy's purse. And, basically, I came to realize that she had
8 been cheating on me or was cheating on me with another friend
9 from high school named Gavin. And it crushed me.
10 And after that happened,I began to look outside of
11 my marriage. You know,I guess I had a lot of motivations,
12 but it led me to eventually end up with Denise.
13 we all started going out a lot.
14 Q Let me stop you right there. we all being who?
15 A My wife and I, Kathy, and Denise and Mike. we
16 started going out to bars and concerts and drinking. And
17 doing a lot of things that we didn't really do while we were
18 all in college, when, probably, it's more appropriate to do
19 those sorts of things. But we started going out. A lot of
20 drinking.
21 And I remember one night in particular -- there were
22 several nights that we did this. But one night in particular
23 we started talking about sex a lot.
24 Q who is we?
25 A The four of us. And I -- you know, I was friends 202
1 with Denise in middle school and high school , but I was never
2 attracted to her until that point.
3 And so after we started talking about sexual things
4 and things that married couples shouldn't be talking about
5 with each other,I think that's when the spark kind of started
6 between the two of us.
7 Q So let's go to October 13, 1997. You said that's
8 the date that you used as an anniversary or something?
9 A Yes, sir. we were going out -- like I said, going
10 out a lot. And one night in particular we were going to
11 Floyd's. And so Denise and I -- we pulled up on Tennessee
12 Street and Denise and I jumped out of the car and left Mike
13 and Kathy to go park the car. And went down to the entrance
14 of Floyd's. And that was the first place that we, like,
15 kissed each other and made out.
16 And we had our night out. And then after we all
17 went home, to our separate houses --
18 Q well, let me stop you right there. You and Denise
19 made out that night, but Mike and Kathy were present?
20 A They were in the car. They were parking the car.
21 It was while they were gone parking the car. And so --
22 Q who else was there that night?
23 A Just the four of us.
24 Q Was Lindsay Lockhart there?
25 A Not that night. 203 1 Q okay. what about Angela Stafford?
2 A Not that night. That night it was just the four of
3 us.
4 Q Okay.
5 A And so later that night, after Kathy and I went home
6 and Mike and Denise went home, she and I got on the phone
7 together. And we basically spent the whole night talking to
8 each other on the phone. And it was just like -- I don't
9 know. we just -- we connected like nobody else. I mean, we
10 just really connected. And we had a lot of sexual talk and
11 had phone sex and that sort of thing.
12 And we agreed and then met up the next day. I think
13 we just met during her lunch break at work. And that's kind
14 of what just started the whole ball rolling with her and I.
15 Q Okay. was this a one-time occurrence or was it
16 ongoi ng?
17 A was what -- what a one time?
18 Q You and her having sexual relations?
19 A oh. No. That's just what started it. I mean, then
20 it -- you know, it snowballed really fast. we started meeting
21 in hotels. we started meeting during the workday. we started
22 meeting whenever we had the opportunity. If Mike was at work.
23 Mike worked a lot. He really was a workaholic, quite frankly.
24 She was not happy with that. And so we started meeting very
25 regularly and having sex very regularly. 204 1 Eventually we started going on trips together.
2 There was times when she and Mike would go on trips and I
3 would go and meet with her. Like if he had a conference in
4 Panama City, i went over and while he was in the conference
5 Denise and I went to Destin together. And we took trips to
6 New York, South Beach. we spent a lot of time together.
7 Q How about Orlando, was that one of the places you
8 went as well?
9 A Orlando -- i remember going to Orlando with Kathy.
10 I don't remember if Denise and I went to Orlando just the two
11 of us or not. Probably. we went lots of places. Panama
12 City.
13 Q Okay. During that time period you mentioned you'd
14 go to hotels?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q You'd meet up during the day?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q were you ever at your house?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q what about her house?
21 A we would primarily go to her house. And it was
22 primarily during the workday. we would meet at Home Depot
23 parking lot or meet behind Keiser College, leave a vehicle and
24 go to her house or go to my house. Sometimes not go to either
25 one of our houses. It depended on how long she could be away 205 1 from work. But --
2 Q where was her house located at?
3 A Her house was off Meridian on Starmount. 256
4 Starmount, I believe.
5 Q Did you ever park at a Grace Lutheran Church as one
6 of the locations to drop your car off?
7 A There was a church in the woods off of Meridian.
8 And I would park at that church. And there was a drainage
9 ditch that ran from the church through the woods into her
10 neighborhood and I would walk down the drainage ditch. And
11 then there was only a short distance that I would have to walk
12 from the drainage ditch down Starmount to get to her house to
13 kind of be undercover, I guess.
14 But there was a church on Meridian -- I'm sorry --
15 on Miccosukee. I don't know why we parked at churches a lot.
16 But,I guess, empty parking lots. But there was a church off
17 of Miccosukee Road that I would leave my car at occasionally,
18 after they moved to Miccosukee Road, to meet up as well.
19 Q And when was that?
20 A well, i mean, it wasn't --
21 Q when did they move to the Miccosukee Road area?
22 A when did they move there? I don't remember exactly.
23 I would say about a year and a half prior to Mike's death, if
24 I had to guess.
25 Q Okay. And we asked questions earlier about Lindsey 206 1 Lockhart. who is that?
2 A Lindsey Ketchum?
3 Q Yes.
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q Formerly Ms. Ketchum.
6 A Right. She was primarily a friend of Mike's that --
7 Mike worked for the Ketchums and Lindsey is the Ketchums'
8 daughter.
9 Q what about Angela Stafford?
10 A Angela worked with the Ketchums as well, and was
11 good friends with Mike and us. But primarily with Mike
12 because she worked with Mike.
13 Q At some point did you and Ms. Stafford also have
14 some sort of relations?
15 A we -- when you say relationship --
16 Q Did y'all hook up?
17 A Yes, sir. I believe it was my birthday -- it was
18 either my birthday day or Angela's birthday on one occasion.
19 And we wanted to go out -- the three of us, Denise and I and
20 Angela wanted to go out. And for some reason Denise couldn't
21 go out. I don't know if she couldn't get a babysitter or what
22 happened. But she said, no, no, you go on. And I was like,
23 no, you don't want me to go out with her without you. And she
24 was like, no, it'll be fine. And so Angela and I went out and
25 had a lot to drink and ended up back at my house in Killearn 207 1 Lakes. And ended up in bed together.
2 And it was dark and all of a sudden the light came
3 on in my bedroom. And I looked up and Denise was standing
4 there. And she said something like -- she said something
5 sarcastic and said, I'm sorry, or something and ran out. And
6 I didn't want Angela to know it was Denise. I think she did
7 know, but i didn't want her to know. And so I lied to Angela
8 and told her that I thought it was my wife -- my ex-wife at
9 that point, Kathy. But --
10 Q So this is after Mike's death?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q But is it before you and Denise had announced that
13 y'all were dating each other?
14 A Correct. we were hiding it at that point.
15 Q Let's talk about life insurance policies. what is
16 it that you did back -- for a living back in 2000?
17 A Part of my job was to sell life insurance.
18 Q okay. Did you sell a life insurance policy to Mike
19 williams?
20 A Yes, sir. I sold him two different policies. I
21 sold him one policy early on.
22 Q when you say early on, when are we talking?
23 A He may have even -- well, no, we wouldn't have been
24 in college. It would have been right after we graduated from
25 college, so -- 1 Q which is when?
2 A '93,'94, somewhere in there. Pretty early on.
3 Because I think at first he had his mother as a beneficiary.
4 And that was a $250,000 policy. And that was before he was
5 married to Denise.
6 Eventually, after they got married, he changed the
7 beneficiary on that policy to Denise. And then -- you want me
8 to talk about all that I know about his policies, whether I
9 sold them or not?
10 Q Let's talk about the million dollar policy.
11 A okay. So that was the first policy that I sold him.
12 And then after -- was it after Anslee was born? I believe it
13 was after Anslee was born. Yeah, it was after Anslee was
14 born. He and I talked about increasing his coverage.
15 Q Now, whose idea was that?
16 A To increase it?
17 Q Uh-huh. Or was it a mutual idea?
18 A I mean, it was a combination of Denise and I talking
19 about him having more coverage. And he and I talking about
20 him having more coverage. I mean, there was a lot of
21 conversations behind the scenes as to getting that new policy.
22 Q In all honesty, having a larger policy of a million
23 dollars on a man who's married and kids and making the income
24 he is, isn't necessarily abnormal?
25 A It wasn't extravagant based on the income that he 209 1 was making.
2 Q Okay. But nonetheless there was conversations and
3 he elected to have a million dollar policy, correct?
4 A Right. He wasn't real -- I think to him it was a
5 lot of money. I think he even had conversations with
6 Mr. Ketchum about it. But he -- you know, he eventually
7 decided, and I think with Denise's encouragement, decided to
8 go ahead and get that extra million dollar policy.
9 Q And when was that?
10 A when did he get the policy?
11 Q Yes, sir.
12 A I get a little confused because he had one policy
13 that was issued that actually -- we didn't get the premium
14 paid or something, and so he actually had a second policy,
15 same thing, same company, same everything. I think there was
16 only like a three-month gap in between that. But it was
17 within -- it was within, I think, six months to a year before
18 his death occurred.
19 Q And you mentioned another policy --
20 THE COURT: Let's go sidebar for just a second. we
21 don't need the court reporter.
22 (Sidebar conference had off the record.)
23 THE COURT: we're dealing with a technical problem,
24 folks. And I would just -- I don't know why I didn't
25 think of this earlier, but this microphone doesn't appear 210 1 to be working. But I think my microphone is working. I
2 rarely need a microphone anyway.
3 So we'll see if that -- let's see if that is
4 working, Mr. winchester.
5 THE WITNESS: Hello. Hello. Is this working
6 better?
7 THE COURT: Is that not doing it?
8 MR. FUCHS: I don't hear any difference.
9 (Pause in proceedings.)
10 THE COURT: I'm sorry to interrupt. I don't know
11 that I helped any. But I thought maybe that would help
12 solve the issue.
13 Go ahead, Mr. Fuchs.
14 MR. FUCHS: Thank you, Your Honor.
15 BY MR. FUCHS:
16 Q At some point were you aware of him having another
17 policy in the neighborhood of half a million dollars?
18 A Yes, sir. He had another policy with a different
19 company that he bought from a different person. I don't
20 remember when I first became aware of it. But I know I became
21 aware of it when I would have been talking with him about the
22 million -dollar policy. And his thoughts or intentions were
23 that he was going to drop that $500,000 policy and replace it
24 with the million -dollar policy.
25 Q well, let's fast forward to the year 2000. At some 211 1 point were there thoughts of how you and Denise could be
2 together?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q How did that get initiated?
5 A I think it even started prior to that, as I've
6 thought about this. And had plenty of time alone to think
7 about it. One thing that I have remembered is the prior year
8 Mike and I were on a hunting trip together. And it was at a
9 lake that was dry and we had to walk across the mud. And
10 there were places in the mud where -- I don't know how to
11 describe it. But, basically, you could fall through the mud
12 and there was nothing underneath. It was like -- it was
13 basically, I guess, people would call it, like, quicksand.
14 And Mike fell into one of those mud holes at one
15 time. And it was just he and I out there. And I helped him
16 out of it. And he had dropped his gun in there as well and he
17 ended up going back in it after his gun.
18 But, anyways. I remember telling Denise about that
19 and how if I hadn't of been there or if I hadn't of helped him
20 out that, you know, it's very likely he would have disappeared
21 and nobody would have known what happened to him. But that's
22 just something that I had remembered in the past few months
23 and thinking about this.
24 But I think it was gradual that we -- you know, the
25 more we were together, the more we wanted to be together. And 212 1 the more we griped about Kathy and Mike, the more we wanted to
2 be together. It just kind of -- it just got worse and worse.
3 i mean, it just snowballed. we just -- I don't even know how
4 to describe it. But -- so, yes, we eventually started talking
5 about options and ways that we could be together.
6 And Denise, because of the way she was raised,
7 because of her pride, I guess I can't say all the reasons, but
8 she did not want to get divorced. And stated that she would
9 not get divorced. But she still had a desire for us to be
10 together, which narrowed the options even further, I guess.
11 Q who narrowed those options?
12 A I'm sorry?
13 Q who narrowed those options?
14 A It was -- all of our conversations and planning and
15 everything, I would say is very mutual. You know, I'm not
16 going to sit here and say that Denise planned everything and,
17 you know, I was just a dumb guy who went along with what she
18 wanted to do. i mean, I -- I instigated a lot of it. I
19 helped come up with ideas. I planned a lot of things. But
20 overall it was very mutual. I mean, we wanted to be together.
21 And we weren't going to let anything stop that.
22 So over the year and a half, year prior to Mike's
23 death we discussed several options and alternatives of ways
24 that we could be together.
25 Q what was one option? 213 1 A One of the options, Mike -- Mike worked a lot at
2 night up at his office. And one of the options was that we
3 could make it look as if there was a burglary of some sort up
4 at his office. And that he got shot in some type of robbery
5 or something up at his office.
6 Denise didn't like that idea. I didn't like that
7 idea and Denise didn't like that idea. But primarily because
8 there would be an investigation if something like that
9 occurred.
10 So another idea, we all used to go out on boats a
11 lot and Mike had a boat. And another option was that the four
12 of us would go out on a boat out into the Gulf.
13 Q The four of you being who?
14 A Me and Kathy and Denise and Mike. And we'd go out
15 in a boat on the Gulf. And, basically, that Kathy and Mike
16 would be pushed overboard. And that Denise and I would find a
17 buoy way offshore that we could hold on to. And either let
18 the boat sink or let the boat take off on its own or whatever,
19 and make it look like we had an accident on the water and that
20 Denise and I had survived the accident.
21 Q Obviously, that's not -- didn't happen?
22 A Correct.
23 Q At some point did the discussion turn to strictly
24 Mike being the one that dies?
25 A I had no desire whatsoever for anything to happen to 214 1 Kathy. I didn't really emphasize that with Denise because it
2 was not good for me to express affection or, you know, care
3 about what happened to Kathy with Denise. But silently, to
4 myself, I was never going to allow anything to happen to my
5 son's mom.
6 So another scenario that we came up with was Mike
7 and I going on a hunting trip together. And there being an
8 accident where both he and I ended up in the water and he
9 drowned and I did not.
10 Denise liked this idea because it -- I don't know
11 how to word it exactly. But she felt better, I guess, about
12 herself. Or we could feel better about ourselves if there was
13 a chance that he could make it out of it. You know, I mean --
14 I think there was even talk about, you know, well, it will be
15 up to God what happens and not us. It won't be a murder. It
16 will be, you know, an accident. It's kind of screwed up
17 thinking. But that was a scenario that she could live with, I
18 guess.
19 Q would it be fair to say that having the attention of
20 being a widow was far better in her mind than being a
21 divorcee?
22 A Yes, sir. Better to be a rich widow than a poor
23 divorcee. And her biggest concern with the divorce was she
24 didn't want to share custody of Anslee with Mike. She was not
25 going to have Anslee going back and forth to two different 215 1 houses. She wasn't going to give that up.
2 Q The drowning scenario, did you take any further
3 steps to make that happen?
4 A Like, what do you mean take any steps to make that
5 happen? Like what happened?
6 Q Did you try and do that?
7 A Yes, sir. So, there was a limited time that we
8 could make that scenario occur because it had to be during the
9 duck season. There's only certain days that you can actually
10 go hunting in duck season.
11 And it had to be at a place where, in my opinion, it
12 would have been successful. which kind of ruled out all of
13 the local lakes around Tallahassee, because the lakes around
14 Tallahassee are mostly shallow. Lake Seminole is a lot
15 deeper.
16 Q Let me ask you another question. You talked about
17 the life insurance policies and the $500 lapsing. Did that
18 also factor into the equation?
19 A Yes, sir. There were a lot of things that were kind
20 of pressuring us for this to happen when it did. One was,
21 Mike had intended for that policy, the $500,000 policy to
22 lapse. He was not intending to continue it. And, so, behind
23 his back, Denise paid one more -- I can't remember if it was
24 quarterly or semiannual premium. But we kept it going one
25 more premium period. And we knew we weren't going to be able 216 1 to keep it going perpetually. That he would eventually see,
2 hey, this money is going out of the checking account for that
3 policy that I didn't want anymore. So there was that.
4 He was becoming a couple of things. He was getting
5 angrier and angrier about the fact that she wasn't having sex
6 with him. He and I took a trip in November out to Arkansas
7 together, so we spent 20 hours in the car together. And I
8 heard a lot about how unhappy he was, you know, with Denise.
9 And he was not happy with not having -- not having sex. of
10 course, I was -- I didn't want him having sex with her. She
11 didn't want to have sex with him.
12 But -- so he even talked about moving away. He
13 talked about moving out west. He talked about all kind of,
14 you know, things. But he was becoming very unhappy. And he
15 was also becoming suspicious. He raised his suspicions with
16 me -- not about me but about Denise, on that trip to Arkansas.
17 That he thought something was going on with her.
18 He thought she was using drugs. He thought -- he
19 had seen money disappearing. She had been taking cash
20 withdrawls out of the ATM, which I knew was for travel for us
21 when we would go out of town. But he kind of thought it might
22 be for drugs or something. I think he even approached
23 Denise's mom about it at some point, asking her about it.
24 But, so -- also, their anniversary was coming up in December
25 and -- 217 1 Q what was their anniversary date?
2 A The 16th or the 17th,I believe. The 16th, I
3 believe it was. And he planned for them to go to Apalachicola
4 and stay at the Gibson Inn over there. And I think made it
5 pretty clear that he was ready, you know -- Denise didn't have
6 sex with him while she was pregnant. And after Anslee was
7 born, you know, to my knowledge, at all. unless she lied to
8 me about it, which she could have. But, you know, based on
9 what Mi ke said he kind of confi rmed that.
10 And we checked up on each other a lot. Denise would
11 check up to see if I was having sex with Kathy. And I would
12 check up on her to see if she was having sex with Mike because
13 we -- you know, we considered ourselves a couple together.
14 And, anyway, so i think Mike made it pretty clear
15 that this anniversary trip it was going to be expected that
16 this was, you know, going to be their starting over date.
17 That it had been long enough since Anslee had been born. That
18 it was time for them to start having sex again. I think he
19 was kind of putting some pressure on Denise about that. And
20 she did not want to go on that trip. Did not want that trip
21 to happen.
22 Q okay. So was a plan made, did y'all take steps to
23 kill Mike?
24 A Yes, sir. So, you know, we decided that that was
25 the plan that we were going to go with. 218 1 Q well, let me ask you a question. You earlier talked
2 about time of the essences because of duck season. why is it
3 important for the duck season aspect of this?
4 A well, because that was the plan, was he and I to be
5 on a duck hunting trip together and to go to Lake Seminole.
6 So duck season only lasted from Thanksgiving until the end of
7 January. It may have even been shorter back in those days.
8 But it was a short time frame that the season was in.
9 And then within that season, you know, we couldn't
10 necessarily go every single day. You had to -- in some places
11 you can only hunt on wednesdays and on the weekend, Saturday,
12 Sunday. But -- so we knew our window of opportunity was
13 closing, basically. So it was decided that that was the plan
14 we were going to go with.
15 And we -- there were several things involved.
16 Denise really didn't have to do a whole lot, other than come
17 up with an alibi for herself and make sure that Mike went. I
18 had to do, you know, more, obviously. But t was decided that
19 Mike and i would go on this trip. I had to -- you know, I
20 wanted to make sure he was going to show up.
21 So -- you know, there was a week prior that this was
22 planned and that it didn't occur, before the actual time that
23 it did occur.
24 Q Let's talk about that. A week prior it was supposed
25 to occur? 219 1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q what happened?
3 A So a week prior we had it set up that this was going
4 to be the date that the trip was going to occur. So Mike and
5 I planned to go, you know, on the trip. And then late the
6 night before -- I believe it was before midnight. And I
7 believe Mike was at his office. And he called me and he said,
8 I can't go. Denise is calling me. She doesn't want me to go
9 on the trip. And I was very surprised. Shocked, kind of.
10 And I was like, okay.
11 And -- because we had, you know, made all this --
12 planned for this to happen. And so -- I can't remember when I
13 called Denise. I think I called her immediately after I hung
14 up with Mike just to see, you know, what -- what is going on.
15 i mean, because this isn't something you need to be
16 wishy-washy about.
17 And I can't remember if I talked to her that night
18 or if it was the next day. But we talked very shortly
19 afterward. And, basically, it was just a cold feet kind of
20 thing. And she, you know, got cold feet at the last minute.
21 Q So at that point were the plans off? was it going
22 to happen?
23 A It wasn't that the plan was off, but we talked about
24 it and we had several, you know, more conversations that, you
25 know, look, this is -- either we're going to go forward with 220 1 this or we're not. I mean, we're either going to be together
2 or we're not.
3 You know, like I said, the policy is ending. You've
4 got that anniversary trip coming up next weekend. You know,
5 duck season is going to be ending soon. Do you want this to
6 happen or not? You know, I don't want to set these plans up
7 if this isn't something, you know -- this isn't something you
8 need to be wishy-washy about, I guess, basically.
9 So at some point during the next week it was decided
10 again that, yes, this is what we were gonna do.
11 Q Now, let me stop you right there. You're talking
12 about telling her, you can't be wishy-washy, times are ending,
13 we have a certain time frame we have to do this. And then it
14 almost sounds like you were pressuring her into that, would
15 that --
16 A Pressuring her. I don't think it was pressuring her
17 as much as stating the facts of, this is the reality of the
18 situation. If you want this to happen, this is the best time
19 for it to happen.
20 Q were all of those issues things that you --
21 A I was not happy. I'm sorry to interrupt. But I was
22 not happy about the fact that we had made these plans and I
23 had committed that this was what was going to happen, and then
24 at the last second she backed out. i didn't understand that
25 and wasn't real happy about that, but. . 221 1 Q were all those issues that youjust talked about
2 things thatyou previously discussed withher?
3 A Yes.
4 Q The time frames and everythinglike that?
5 A Right.
6 Q So you call her up and you tellher all these
7 things,not be wishy-washy?
8 A (Nods.)
9 Q were there other communicationswhere she was
10 talkingto you about putting the plans backin place?
11 A Right. Yeah. well, we met upeventually. And
12 probablymet up several times that week. At that point we
13 were meeting,you know, a lot. And so wemet --
14 Q when you say met up --
15 A I'm sorry?
16 Q when you're talking about met up,you know, like
17 going outto eat or what are you talkingabout?
18 A No. The same as we always did. Meeting during the
19 workday. Primarily during lunches. Thatsort of thing.
20 Q So you're talking about sexualrelations?
21 A well, we didn't always have sexevery time.
22 Q okay.
23 A But during that week, a primaryreason we were
24 meetingwas to discuss what are we goingto do here.
25 Q Okay. 222 1 A You know, what's going to happen here. So we met up
2 during that week and talked about it and came to the
3 conclusion again -- and I remember where it was. It was at
4 Rhoden Cove. At the boat ramp at Rhoden Cove.
5 Q where is that?
6 A On Lake Jackson off of Meridian Road at the end of
7 Rhoden Cove Road. But we decided that -- that this is what we
8 were going to do. we're not going to back out at the last
9 minute. And in a sick sort of way, you know, it was kind of
10 like, you know, well, if God wants this to happen, this is
11 what's going to happen. Because the plan, again, was that it
12 was going to be an accident. And, you know, there would be a
13 chance that he could get out of it.
14 Q You say you met up. why meet up rather than phone
15 calls or something like that?Any particular reason?
16 A well, it's not necessarily something you really want
17 to talk about on the phone. we weren't really that concerned
18 or paranoid about that sort of thing at that point. But we
19 just met up routinely because we wanted to meet each other,
20 because we wanted to see each other and be together.
21 Q okay. So then that time you meet up at the cove and
22 make your decision?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q So what's supposed to happen?
25 A So it's the same plan. It's the same night, just a 223 1 week later.
2 And from what I remember about that night before,
3 Mike -- Mike had volunteered to ring the bell for the
4 Salvation Army at like a wal-Mart. And Kathy and I had
5 planned on going out to a concert at Floyd's. And I wanted us
6 all to go out, as I remember it. But that didn't end up
7 happening for whatever reason. I don't know if they couldn't
8 get a babysitter or why they didn't end up going out with us.
9 But Kathy and I did end up going out to that
10 concert. Part of the plan was that I wanted Kathy to
11 basically be as drunk as possible the night before because I
12 wanted her to sleep late -- in late the next morning. My
13 alibi -- the plan was that all of this would occur very early
14 in the morning and I would have time enough to get back and
15 meet my father-in-law up near 1-10 and Thomasville Road to
16 actually go on a hunting trip with him. So that was going to
17 be my cover, gonna be my alibi. Her alibi was gonna be that
18 she was at home with Anslee.
19 And the plan was when Mike didn't come back home,
20 that eventually she was going to start calling her sisters and
21 her dad from her house phone so that she could establish that
22 she was at the house, prove that she was at the house with
23 Ansl ee.
24 Q okay. So what was the plan to make this happen?
25 what happened? 224 1 A So, Kathy and I went out and went to the concert.
2 Got home late. She did have a lot to drink. There was
3 discussion between me and Denise -- and I can't remember if I
4 actually did this or not, or if I did it the week prior or --
5 I just really can't remember.
6 But I remember Denise and I talking about there was
7 some medication -- there was medication that Kathy had. And
8 we talked about giving her a little bit of that medication
9 that would cause her to sleep really heavy. And make sure
10 that she slept really good through all of it. Because I
11 didn't want her to wake up and realize how early -- I didn't
12 want her to know how early I was leaving the next morning.
13 So the plan with Mike was that I would meet him at a
14 gas station on Thomasville Road up near the overpass -- well,
15 the overpass I don't think was there at that point. But meet
16 him up at a gas station up near the McDonald's up there. And
17 I met him there.
18 I had told him that we were going to go to a secret
19 special spot to go hunting. And -- and that he needed to
20 bring his waders. I had to make sure that he brought his
21 waders. Because the belief was -- there was kind of like a --
22 there still is, probably. Like, a duck -hunter's myth that if
23 you fall overboard with your waders you're going to sink
24 really quick and drown. So I had to make sure that he brought
25 his waders. And so I told him about this, you know, great 225 1 spot that we were going to go and he needed to bring his
2 waders.
3 So i met him at the gas station and I told him --
4 when he drove up I was real paranoid about phones and him
5 calling me and there being a record of him calling me. So I
6 told him that my battery was dead on my phone, that there was
7 no reason for him to call me as we were driving over to the
8 lake. Because normally we would have called and talked to
9 each other on the phone or even ridden together.
10 I don't even remember how or why I told him that I
11 needed to use my vehicle instead of just going in his. But
12 somehow I came up with some reason to do that.
13 Q Let me stop you right there real quick. You said
14 that you called him and tried to get him to -- to make sure he
15 was going to get the waders. when did you call him and talked
16 about that?
17 A I don't remember specifically. we talked several
18 times. You know, Mike and I talked every day ourselves. And
19 so, you know, we talked about hunting all the time and we
20 talked about this trip several times prior to it happening.
21 Q okay.
22 A So i followed him over to the lake. He had his boat
23 behind his Bronco and I followed him in my white Suburban.
24 Q what lake?
25 A Lake Seminole. which is about 50 minutes away. 226 1 And I had told him what landing we needed to go to.
2 And so we pulled into the landing and launched the boat. And
3 I said something -- I had to make sure that he had the waders
4 on. So I said something about, we're running low on time or,
5 you know, we're going to be really pushed and --
6 Q why was it so important for the waders to be on?
7 A Because I believed and we believed that if you fell
8 overboard with the waders on, that you would sink pretty
9 quickly. So I told him something like, we're -- you know,
10 we're running late. we need to go ahead and put our waders on
11 here and now before we get in and go. And so we both did
12 that.
13 And because I knew where we were going hunting, I
14 was in the back of the boat driving and he was in the front.
15 So --
16 Q we're talking about a boat. what kind of boat are
17 we talking about? Are we talking about like a large airboat
18 or what are talking about?
19 A It was a -- what's called a Gheenoe. It's basically
20 a canoe that has a flat back that you can put a motor -- a
21 small motor on the back of it.
22 Q I'm familiar with canoes. Canoes can be a little
23 tipsy.
24 A This boat --
25 Q Is this boat the same way? 227 1 A This boat -- this boat was -- yes, basically like a
2 canoe. So pretty tippy.
3 Q Okay. So you had -- you put the boat in the water
4 and you're heading out. You're driving?
5 A Yes, sir,I was driving. And I know I was very
6 concerned about the time. Everything had taken longer than
7 what i had anticipated. And I had to be back in town early
8 enough in time to meet my father-in-law for my alibi trip to
9 occur.
10 And so we headed out. And there was a deep area
11 maybe a couple hundred yards from the landing that we put in
12 at. And we got to that area that I knew was a deep area. And
13 I don't remember exactly how I got him to stand up, but -- I
14 don't know if I pretended something was wrong with the motor
15 or the weight in the boat was off or something. But I
16 basically stopped the boat and got him to stand up. And when
17 he did,I pushed him into the water.
18 Q what happened next?
19 A So he was in the water. And he was, like,
20 struggling. And the motor of the boat was still running. And
21 I pulled off just a little bit to get, kind of, away from him
22 so that he couldn't reach back into the boat.
23 And I didn't know it at the time -- I didn't know if
24 he was trying to swim or -- I didn't know what was going on.
25 But what i came to find out or eventually realized was, he was 228 1 taking the waders and the jacket off. And he got those off.
2 And I think I forgot to tell you about this part
3 before. But I remember now that that area of the lake had a
4 lot of snags a lot of dead trees that come up out of the
5 water. And there's a lot of stumps that come up out of the
6 water. And he swam over to one of those stumps and held on to
7 it.
8 And he was panicking and I was panicking. And none
9 of this was, like, going the way I thought it was going to go.
10 And I didn't know what to do. But he was -- he started to
11 yell. And I didn't know -- I didn't know -- I didn't know how
12 to get out of that situation.
13 And, so,I had my gun in the boat and so I loaded my
14 gun. And I just -- I made one or two circles around. And I
15 ended up circling closer towards him. And he was in the water
16 and as I passed by I shot him.
17 Q Where did you shoot him?
18 A In the head.
19 Q what happened next?
20 A So when I shot him it was dark. And there was a
21 bright flash when that happened. And I didn't want to see
22 what happened, so, like,I closed my eyes when the instant of
23 that flash happened.
24 And the boat was moving as this happened. And so I
25 turned back around and came back to where he was and got to 229 1 the stump. And I knew I couldn't -- I couldn't leave him
2 there being shot. So I was going to have to do something to
3 cover this up. And I reached down -- and he wasn't far under
4 the water, but, like, my whole arm got wet. And I remember
5 wondering, like, how am I going to explain that my arm is
6 soaking wet. And I was afraid I was going to have to jump
7 into the water. But I reached down and I grabbed a hold of
8 him.
9 And I was closer -- because of where I had driven
10 the boat I was closer to another landing, just a little dirt
11 landing that was further down the shoreline. And so I decided
12 to motor the boat and pull him over to that landing over
13 there. So I drug him in the water over to that dirt ramp.
14 And left the boat, left him, ran back down to where
15 our trucks were parked. Got my truck, came back to where he
16 was. Backed my truck to the edge of the water and let the
17 tailgate down. And ended up putting him in the back of my
18 suburban.
19 And I pushed the boat back out into the water to
20 make it look like, you know, his boat was out there and he had
21 drowned or disappeared. Or, you know, I didn't give a lot of
22 thought as to what was going to happen after that. I was just
23 panicked as to getting out of that area and covering this up.
24 So I realized it was probably getting too late at
25 that point to meet up with my father-in-law, but I was still 230 1 going to try. And I sped --
2 Q Mr. winchester, let me stop you for a moment. You
3 said you that you were able to load -- you loaded him into
4 your Suburban?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q How big was Mike?
7 A He was a little bit bigger than me. He was a little
8 heavier than me. we were pretty close in size but he was a
9 little bit bigger than me.
10 Q How much do you weigh?
11 A Back then, probably, 170, something like that.
12 Q How were you able to get a man that's 170 pounds
13 deadweight into the back of your Suburban by yourself?
14 A It was not easy and it was not pretty. But I had to
15 make it happen. I mean, I had no choice. And I can't even
16 explain, like, how your body feels in that kind of a
17 situation. I don't -- I don't -- unless somebody's been to
18 war or something -- I don't even know how to explain. But,
19 like, you have so such adrenaline pumping through your body
20 you're just -- it's just crazy. But, you know, it wasn't
21 pretty. And I never -- I made a purposeful decision to never
22 view him, to look at him.
23 But I backed the truck down. And there was an angle
24 to the ramp, so the back of my truck was angled down toward
25 the water. And I backed it all the way down to the edge of 231 1 the water, so it wasn't -- there was no distance involved.
2 But, yes, he was very heavy and it was not easy to
3 do that, but I had no choice.
4 Q You said you were concerned about meeting up with
5 your father-in-law at that point, what happened next?
6 A I sped back toward Tallahassee. And as I was
7 driving there I was realizing I'm not going to make it in
8 time. I didn't want to call him because I didn't want to turn
9 my phone on. I didn't want there to be any record of where my
10 phone was at. So I left my phone off.
11 And by the time I got back to Tallahassee, you know,
12 I looked through the parking lot -- we were going to meet at
13 Carriage Gate parking lot. I looked through the parking lot,
14 didn't see his vehicle there. And I decided the best thing
15 for me to do was to go back to my house and pretend that I had
16 overslept. And then I could also make a phone call from my
17 house to my father-in-law, which would kind of prove that I
18 overslept and I was at my house. And I wanted there to be a
19 record of that.
20 Q And all this is with Mike in the back of your
21 Subu rban?
22 A Yes, sir. I actually -- when I was driving down on
23 Thomasville Road I actually came up to a stoplight. And there
24 was a state trooper across from me. And I can remember just
25 being freaked out about it. But,I mean, I didn't have any 232 1 choice, so -- that's what I decided to do, so..
2 I drove home. Pulled up into my driveway and was
3 really, really hoping that Kathy was still asleep. I went
4 into the house as quietly as I could. She was still asleep.
5 I crawled back into the bed. And had a phone there on the
6 floor. I can remember dialing my father-in-law and telling
7 him -- apologizing, I'm so sorry, I overslept.
8 And I didn't want to wake Kathy up, obviously,
9 because I had what was in the driveway. But I wanted her to
10 know i was there. So I -- I -- I can't remember what I said
11 to her, but I think I halfway woke her up and said, I'm going
12 to go out with the dogs or train dogs. I trained dogs at the
13 time and was gone for hours at a time from the house doing
14 stuff like that. I don't remember exactly what I told her.
15 But I, basically -- I wanted her to -- I wanted her
16 to know that i was there to confirm that I was there. But not
17 wake up and start asking me any questions about what happened,
18 why did you oversleep, you know, anything like that.
19 So I did that and then I went back out to the
20 driveway to leave, when i went out to the driveway -- my
21 driveway was angled. And I was walking behind my truck and I
22 saw out of the back tailgate blood was coming out of the back
23 of my tailgate and dripping onto the driveway. And that
24 freaked me out. So I rinsed that off.
25 And was trying to figure out -- I had been thinking 233 1 on the way from Lake Seminole back to Tallahassee what was I
2 going to do with him. And I don't know when I decided, but,
3 you know, ultimately I decided it had to be close and it had
4 to be quick. And it had to be, obviously, a location that,
5 you know, he wouldn't be found.
6 And I decided on an isolated dirt -road boat ramp
7 down at Carr Lake. But I had no tools. And at that point
8 Carr Lake was very low. Parts of it were dry. And like the
9 other lakes, there were areas in the lake that had puddles of
10 water or mud. And my thinking was, if I got him there I could
11 take him out to one of those water holes or mud holes and put
12 him in one of those. And that would be a safe place that he
13 wouldn't be found. But I had no -- I had nothing to do this
14 with so I had to go to a store.
15 And I'm 90 percent sure the store that I ended up at
16 was wal-Mart. And I bought a shovel, I bought a tarp and I
17 bought weights. Like weights that you lift weights with.
18 Because I was thinking that I would use the weights to weigh
19 his body down in the water or mud hole or whatever.
20 while i was in that store I actually ran into a
21 friend of ours, Mike Phillips. And I actually totally forgot
22 about running into him or having any conversation with him
23 until I ran into him later during the search for Mike Williams
24 at the lake. And he said, yeah, I remember seeing you that
25 day. You were in a panic. You were in a hurry. And he was 234 1 thinking I was in a hurry to go search for Mike. But I was
2 actually in a hurry because I was trying to bury Mike.
3 But, anyways,I bought those things at the wal-Mart
4 and drove to Carr Lake, down to the end of the road, turned my
5 truck around backwards, backed down to the landing. And, you
6 know, my thinking was I was going to drag him way out into the
7 lake. And so i got the tarp and put it on the ground behind
8 my truck. Pulled Mike out, put him on that tarp, kind of
9 wrapped him up. And as I pulled him, instantly I knew there
10 was no way I was going to be able to move him any distance at
11 all. That he was just too heavy and that wasn't going to
12 happen.
13 So I had to find somewhere close and it was a really
14 grown up area. And, like I said, the lake was almost dry so
15 the water was down. And I decided to put him down in the lake
16 bed itself. Kind of on the edge of the lake. So that,
17 eventually, when the water came back up, that area would be
18 under water. And t was hidden from the road somewhat.
19 And so I pulled him down to that area and started
20 digging a hole. And it was hard. I was exhausted. I was
21 getting bitten by ants all over me. I remember being scared
22 that I was going to have to explain why I had ant bites all
23 over me because there was ants where I was digging.
24 But, actually, while I was doing this I heard a
25 vehicle coming down the road. And so I kind of -- I had -- 235 1 there were bushes there anyway, but I kind of made sure
2 everything was flat and you couldn't see it from the road.
3 And I ran back up to my truck. And a guy drove up. He was
4 coming down there to go hunting out on the lake itself. And
5 he and I made small talk, chitchat.
6 I was, obviously, very paranoid. And I got the
7 impression --i can't remember why now -- but at the time I
8 got the impression that he might have been like a
9 law -enforcement -type guy. Maybe like a game warden or
10 something like that. But he talked about he was going deer
11 hunting on out on the lake bed. And so I kind of hung out at
12 my truck and waited for him to get several hundred yards away
13 before I went back to digging.
14 So, eventually, I got a hole big enough and I put
15 him there and covered him up. And made sure it, you know,
16 didn't look suspicious, as well as I could. But now I still
17 had a problem because my truck had blood all in the back of
18 it. And t was getting later and later in the day.
19 And I knew at some point people were going to start
20 calling me. There was a family Christmas with my wife's
21 family up in Cairo that we were supposed to be going to that
22 afternoon or that night. You know,I was just running out of
23 time.
24 Andso iput thetruck --puttheshovelintheback
25 of the truck. AndI knewI had tocleanmytruckup. AndI 236 1 think at that point -- I can't remember the order. I can't
2 remember -- I went two different places -- I went two
3 different places to clean up my truck. One of them was, I
4 went to my parents' house and parked -- they have a big lot.
5 And I parked toward the back of it and tried to use a hose to
6 clean out the truck. And it -- it -- I think I went there
7 first because it was closer to where I was. But it wasn't
8 working very well.
9 And I realized I needed to have, like, a pressure
10 washer. And so I left there and drove around trying to find a
11 car wash that had a pressure washer. There were none on my
12 side of town, so I ended up at Tharpe Street and old
13 Bainbridge. There's a carwash there that had a pressure
14 washer. And I cleaned out the back as best as I could there.
15 And after that --
16 Q Let's stop for a second.
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q You buried him up at Carr Lake. At some point do
19 you, for lack of a better term, go about your business? Go to
20 Cairo and meet Kathy and everybody and the family?
21 A Right. After I -- after I cleaned up -- I'm sorry.
22 Q Answer. Did you go up to Cairo and meet Kathy and
23 the family?
24 A Yes.
25 Q At some point were you contacted about Mike being 237 1 gone, missing?
2 A Right.
3 Q who contacted you?
4 A My recollection is that my dad called me and said,
5 Mike's missing.
6 Q Whenever that happened, what did you do? And --
7 wait -- let me back up. when was that?
8 A I remember it being on the drive home from being up
9 in Cairo for the Christmas party.
10 Q So is this the same Saturday?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q okay. In the evening hours?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q Okay. what did you do?
15 A You know, when my dad called I kind of said, well,
16 that's Mike, because Mike was known to be late and kind of
17 irresponsible at times going out on hunting or fishing trips
18 or whatever. But, you know,I said, I'll get back there and
19 we'll, you know, go look for him.
20 And, so, got back to town. Met up with my dad and
21 went with him over to Lake Seminole.
22 Q That night or next day?
23 A That -- immediately when I got back to town.
24 Q okay.
25 A There were a few people over there with boats. 238 1 Mainly friends and family. And those of us with boats started
2 going out where his truck was -- no, we didn't put in where
3 his truck was. we put it in -- there was a concrete landing
4 before that, which was a nicer landing that you weren't going
5 to get stuck at. And we, my dad and I, went out on the lake
6 and searched for Mike. He was searching and I was just lying.
7 Q My understanding, a weather front came through and
8 it rained during that evening?
9 A There was a storm that came through that night. I
10 think we got off the lake before that happened. But, you
11 know, my dad wanted to look -- I think we were the last ones
12 on the lake and my dad didn't want to give up. My dad loved
13 Mike.
14 THE COURT: Now would be a good time to take a
15 break. why don't we take ten minutes.
16 (A recess was had.)
17 THE COURT: Let's have the jury, please.
18 (Discussion off the record.)
19 (Jury enters.)
20 THE COURT: All right. Everybody be seated.
21 You may proceed, Mr. Fuchs.
22 MR. FUCHS: Thank you, Your Honor.
23 BY MR. FUCHS:
24 Q So, Mr. winchester, you were talking about how you
25 and your father had gone back to the lake. It was later that 239 1 evening when you were searching, before the weather came in.
2 Did you find anything that evening?
3 A Yes, sir. I didn't really -- I mean,I knew where
4 Mike's boat was, and I didn't really want to be the one that
5 found it. I would have rather that somebody else had found
6 it. But my dad was just really determined and, you know, he
7 took us to a spot --I knew it was going to be there. But he
8 took us to a spot and, sure enough, there was Mike's boat. So
9 we found his boat. And I think we just left it. we didn't
10 touch it. we left it where it was and went back in and told
11 whoever the law enforcement people were there at the time.
12 But shortly thereafter a pretty bad storm, rain
13 storm, and I think cold front came through that night.
14 Q And did you go back to the lake the next day?
15 A I'm sure. I'm sure I did. The next two months are
16 kind of a blur for me. But, yes,I spent lots of time at the
17 lake during the search because I kind of wanted to monitor
18 what was going on. I wanted to put up a good, you know, front
19 to look like I was out there looking like everybody else. But
20 I was out there a lot.
21 Q At some point a hat was found on the lake?
22 A Ahat?
23 Q Yeah.
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q were you the one that found that hat? 240 1 A I was not the one that found it. I was the one that
2 put it in the water during one of my searches on the lake. I
3 was -- well, Denise and I were getting concerned that nothing
4 else was being found out there. And I was hoping that his
5 waders and jacket and all would be found to kind of confirm
6 that he had drowned there. And I wanted to keep the searchers
7 in that particular area.
8 So I took a hat that was similar to a hat that Mike
9 used, which was real distinctive. It had a weird looking bill
10 on it and stuff. And when I was out there with another friend
11 of mine I threw it in the water in that area, because I wanted
12 to keep the people in that area. Because I wanted the waders
13 and the jacket to be found to confirm that that's where Mike
14 was and where he went into the water.
15 Q was that hat eventually found?
16 A It was.
17 Q And you were asked to identify it?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q You told law enforcements it was Mike's?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q You brought up a point about you and Denise had
22 concerns or were talking at that point?
23 A uh-huh.
24 Q Following Mike's murder on the 16th, what
25 communication did you have with Denise? 241 1 A I can't remember the first time that we talked. we
2 had prearranged that, obviously, our communication needed to
3 be minimal , both by phone and in person. obviously, we
4 weren't going to be meeting up in parking lots and having sex
5 and doing all that was normal for us to be doing. So we had
6 decided that -- is this too close to me?
7 Q You can push it back a little bit. It's a little
8 louder now than it used to be.
9 A It feels like I'm at a concert.
10 So we had decided ahead of time that we really
11 needed to minimize our contact. I got a lot of information
12 about Denise and what was going on with Denise through Kathy,
13 who was going over to her house and seeing her and talking to
14 her.
15 Denise kind of sequestered herself up in her bedroom
16 and didn't want to be around a lot of people during that time,
17 which was smart of her to do. And so I got a lot of
18 information from Kathy.
19 But, eventually, you know, she and I talked. And
20 there never was a conversation that was like, well, did it all
21 go according to plan or, you know, we -- first of all, I
22 didn't want to talk about that because that was not the plan.
23 what happened with Mike was not the plan that Denise and I had
24 come up with. And I --
25 Q Let me stop you right there. I want to make clear, 242 1 the plan didn't play out the way you wanted it to, but it
2 certainly -- was it the plan that you and Denise had discussed
3 to actually have him killed?
4 A The plan was for his death to occur, but it was not
5 for it to occur in the way that it did. I mean, the plan was
6 for him to fall in the water and for him to have a chance to
7 survive it. But, obviously, that's not what happened. And I
8 didn't want to tell Denise that.
9 So we never had a conversation that was like, did it
10 all go according to plan? But it was quite obvious from the
11 circumstances that Mike was gone and, you know, she assumed
12 that what we talked about, the plan that we had made, she
13 assumed that that was what had happened. It wasn't until
14 years later that I tried to and somewhat told her that that's
15 not what ended up happening.
16 Q okay. So at some point you and her start talking
17 again, despite the distances. When was that?
18 A The first time, I'd be guessing. I mean, I would
19 say a few days before we talked -- I'm sure the first time we
20 talked was just on the phone. It was a little while before I
21 saw her in person. Because I remember being kind of nervous
22 and I just knew it would be weird to see her because of what
23 we had done. I just knew it would be weird to see her after
24 that. Kind of to face each other after that.
25 But, you know, as the search went on and, you know, 243 1 long term as things got back to normal, we just kind of
2 settled back into the same routines. But the next thing,
3 obviously, that we had to deal with was the fact that his body
4 wasn't being found. And so the concern between she and I then
5 became, well, if his body is not found what's going to happen
6 with the life insurance.
7 Q okay. This is a conversation you're having with
8 her?
9 A Yes.
10 Q okay. And what isshe saying? what is her concern?
11 A well,that if hisbody is notfound, you know,
12 what'sgoing tohappen? Isshe going toget the money or not?
13 Q So didyou and/orher take anysteps to facilitate
14 that?
15 A To facilitate her getting the money?
16 Q Yeah.
17 A I was not in a hurry to push that issue. I felt
18 like we needed to kind of lay low on that and not appear to
19 be, you know, the eager widow ready to cash in on her life
20 insurance.
21 Also, she was getting -- at that time, insurance
22 companies were paying a ridiculous amount. I think eight
23 percent they were required to pay on death benefit proceeds.
24 So she was earning eight percent as long as the money sat
25 there, which you couldn't get that outside in a bank or 244 1 anything like that. So I knew the longer it drug out the
2 better it was going to be. we talked about that.
3 Again, it was actually -- again, it was actually my
4 dad, because he was concerned about Denise and he wanted her
5 to get her money so she could pay her bills. And, you know,
6 he pushed it through the hoops that needed to happen for her
7 to end up getting the money quickly as she could.
8 But what we came to learn -- what he came to learn,
9 what we all came to learn was she was going to have to get a
10 death certificate issued by a judge through a court. So
11 probably my dad or me hooked her up with an attorney, Curt
12 Hunter. And she talked with Curt about what needed to be
13 done.
14 And, I think, basically, she had to file a petition
15 with the Court stating everything that happened. Talking
16 about what a wonderful marriage she had with Mike. There was
17 no reason for him to run off on her. I can't remember what
18 all had to go in the petition. But we talked about that ahead
19 of time.
20 And she ended up filing a petition. And it was
21 granted and she was issued a death certificate. So she was
22 able to get the money.
23 Q Now, the money gets paid out, Mike's body is not
24 found. You and her, you said got back into your routine.
25 were there any conversations about what had happened? 245 1 A About what had happened specifically with Mike?
2 Q Yes.
3 A No.
4 Q Okay. At some point law enforcement takes other
5 looks at the case and interviews people. Did y'all have any
6 conversations about that?
7 A well, this was years later and a lot transpired in
8 between Mike's death and law enforcement getting involved. I
9 think it was three years later, maybe. But the first thing
10 that happened with me was I just got a call from a deputy. I
11 don't remember if it was a Jackson County Sheriff officer or
12 an investigator with FDLE.
13 But I got a call from somebody and they wanted to
14 talk to me about Mike williams and the case. And I agreed and
15 went in to FDLE on Riggins Road there and interviewed with two
16 gentlemen there.
17 And it became quite clear to me during that
18 interview that they were suspicious of what happened. And not
19 only that, they were suspicious of me and Denise. And I think
20 even after I left that interview I called her immediately and
21 was freaking out. You know, that this was going on. And --
22 Q Let me stop you right there. So you had gone in and
23 you had done an interview. You mentioned that there were
24 things -- a lot of things that happened prior to that. And
25 this is approximately 2003, 2004 something like that -- 246 1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q -- when you were interviewed?
3 A Right.
4 Q So prior to that occurring, had you and Denise
5 talked about a possibility of what you would do if law
6 enforcement started investigating this?
7 A Yeah. I mean, we basically weren't going to say
8 anything. we had -- the way that we -- the word that we put
9 on it was we had an agreement that she would never say
10 anything about me and I would never say anything about her.
11 Because we knew or we felt like that as long as neither one of
12 us talked that nobody would ever, you know, find out what
13 happened. So we called it our agreement, basically. And we
14 were probably pretty arrogantly confident in that agreement, I
15 guess.
16 Q Did you and her take any steps to ensure the fact
17 that wiretaps or -- having a conversation with her, code
18 words, code signals, things like that?
19 A we didn't get that way until after law enforcement
20 started looking into things.
21 The other thing that made us really paranoid was
22 Denise -- at first Denise was allowing Cheryl, Mike's mom, to
23 see Anslee and taking Anslee -- Mike and Denise's daughter,
24 Anslee, out to Cheryl, Grandma Cheryl's house. And on one of
25 those trips out to Cheryl's house Denise found a notebook that 247 1 Cheryl had and she had written her suspicions about Denise and
2 me, and what had happened with Mike.
3 And when Cheryl was in another room or something
4 Denise read that. And came back and told me what she had read
5 and really freaked out about it. And at that point didn't
6 want Cheryl to -- didn't want any contact with Cheryl, really.
7 But between that and law enforcement getting
8 involved, we became very paranoid about being monitored. So
9 we agreed and talked about we weren't going to talk about
10 anything on the phones anymore. we were worried about our
11 cars being bugged. Our houses being bugged. we had hand
12 signals that we would use if we needed to talk about something
13 related to Mike or law enforcement.
14 Q what are those hand signals?
15 A One of them was a C for Cheryl. And then the other
16 one was this (indicating). Like, jail bars. So when we did
17 that we knew that one or the other of us had something to talk
18 about. And we would usually go -- there was a park next to --
19 there is a park next to Denise's house along Miccosukee Road.
20 we would go out to that park and go way out in a field on a
21 bench.
22 And we would leave our cars [sic] in the vehicle.
23 wouldn't take -- we would leave our phones in the vehicle.
24 Make sure we didn't have a phone on us. we were very
25 concerned that we were being watched or monitored by law 1 enforcement.
2 Q Now, backing up again, prior to the interview.
3 You're still married in 2000 to Kathy. And you started your
4 relations back with Denise.
5 A (Nods.)
6 Q At some point did your marriage with Kathy start
7 falling apart?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q when was that?
10 A I mean, it had started -- it had started, you know,
11 when Denise and I started our affair in '97. But after Mike
12 was gone, we actually -- Kathy and I spent even more time with
13 Denise. The three of us doing a lot of things. Just because
14 Denise and I wanted to be together. And, yeah, things just
15 got worse and worse.
16 I mean, Kathy, you know, told me later that after
17 Mike was gone it was like there was no reason for me and
18 Denise to be apart from each other. She made comments like
19 that. But I think she was suspicious of us, you know, all
20 along. But I never admitted to Kathy that Denise and I were
21 having an affair, obviously.
22 And that was just kind of, basically, the next step
23 in the plan. But it couldn't be right off because that would
24 look bad. So Kathy and i ended up staying together. I think
25 our divorce wasn't finalized until 2004,I believe. 249 1 Q At some point did you and Kathy separate prior to
2 the divorce?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q At some point was there a situation where you
5 backtracked, essentially, and started -- and made a pledge to
6 try and get back with Kathy and not go with Denise?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q what was that about?
9 A There was a lot that led up to that. As you said,
10 we were separated. So Kathy and I were separated. I had a
11 house to myself. There was the incident that you talked
12 about -- we talked about earlier with Angela Stafford. where
13 Denise walked in on Angela and I in my bedroom.
14 After that happened Denise was furious. And she,
15 you know, we had a briefcase full of momentos, cards, notes,
16 letters, pictures, videos, all sorts of things. She left my
17 house and went to her house and burned it all. She was very
18 angry with me. I didn't know it at the time, but she actually
19 was having sex with a guy that she worked with at work. And I
20 think when she caught me with --
21 Q Is that Charles Bunker?
22 A I'm sorry?
23 Q Charles Bunker?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 And, so, when she caught me with Angela, I think she 250 1 decided at that point, well, I'm going to drop Brian and
2 pursue a relationship with Mr. Bunker. And, so, things just,
3 basically, like, went to hell with me and Denise.
4 And, long story short, I mean,I just realized what
5 a disaster my life was at that point. And Denise and I had --
6 well, we hadn't broken up. She had basically dumped me for
7 Chuck. And I found myself at church one day on July 4th.
8 Heard a sermon about freedom. You know,I felt like I was a
9 slave to all that I had been living for, you know, in my
10 relationship with Denise. And I had a -- I guess you would
11 call it a spiritual awakening or conversion, however you want
12 to term it.
13 Eventually, the relationship with Denise and
14 Mr. Bunker went haywire and south. They had their legal
15 issues with each other.
16 Q Let's stop there real quick. Because you're on
17 Mr. Bunker. was there an incident between you and Mr. Bunker?
18 A That happened prior to me going to church that day.
19 But, yes, sir.
20 The way that I found out about Denise and Chuck was,
21 she left town with him. went up to Atlanta on a trip
22 together. And I found out from one of her sisters that they
23 were in Atlanta.
24 And I was not happy. I was angry. And I wanted to
25 confront her, you know. Because we had been through a lot. 251 1 Done a lot for each other. I mean, I gave up half of my son's
2 life to be with her. you know, killed her husband. And we'd
3 done a lot to be together. And then for her to turn around
4 and go, you know, sleep with Chuck didn't make me happy.
5 So I found out they were in Buckhead in Atlanta.
6 And I drove up there to confront them -- confront her. I
7 didn't really care about him so much. But I ended up
8 finding -- i ended up sitting in a lobby in a hotel and they
9 came strolling by together. And, you know,I confronted them.
10 And we ended up going outside and having a long
11 argument/conversation out next to the street in Buckhead.
12 She -- I wanted Chuck gone. I didn't want to deal
13 with Chuck. So my main focus was, you need to get rid of
14 Chuck. She got rid of him. Got him to leave us alone. And
15 she and I spent the night together in the hotel. And I didn't
16 know it at the time, but she was just kind of placating me
17 when Chuck was -- I think, got a room down the hallway in the
18 hotel. Didn't really leave. But -- so we had that incident.
19 And Denise told me later that the way that she got
20 rid of Chuck was she told him that if he didn't leave that I
21 could have her turned in for insurance fraud. which i thought
22 was just -- it blew my mind that she told him that. I
23 couldn't believe that she admitted that to another party.
24 Q Did you hear her say that or is that just what she
25 told you? 252 1 A She told me this later and we argued about it later.
2 So the incident with Chuck happened. And I drove
3 back to Tallahassee. And I was just done. I was just spent.
4 And that's what kind of led me to, kind of,I guess, what I
5 thought at the time was rock bottom. I didn't know I had so
6 many rock bottoms ahead of me.
7 But at that point i ended up in church and kind of
8 had a spiritual reawakening. And over the next few months I
9 decided that I wanted to try to reconcile with Kathy. I still
10 loved Denise. I still wanted to be with Denise.
11 Eventually, Denise and Chuck's relationship imploded
12 and they had their, you know, legal issues and whatnot. And
13 so they broke up. My dad actually helped Denise through all
14 of that.
15 Q So they break up. You try to get back with Kathy?
16 A They broke up and Denise and I -- Denise kind of had
17 her own spiritual awakening. And I know this sounds all
18 screwy. But we wanted to be together still but we both agreed
19 that the right thing for me to do was to try to get with
20 Kathy. And if Kathy decided that wasn't going to happen, then
21 we were free to be together.
22 Q Is that what you did?
23 A And so -- yes,I tried to reconcile with Kathy.
24 Q Did that work out?
25 A Not well. 253 1 Q Eventually you and Kathy ended up in a divorce?
2 A Yes, sir. we end up getting divorced. And so we're
3 free to be together. Mike's --
4 Q when was the divorce with Kathy?
5 A I'm -- this is terrible, but I don't remember when
6 it was finalized. Because we had a long separation. I don't
7 remember when the divorce itself was finalized.
8 Q At some point did you and Denise start becoming
9 public with your dating?
10 A Yes, sir. After the divorce was finalized and we
11 decided enough time had passed from Mike's death, we decided
12 it was okay for us to gradually start dating.
13 And, you know, we talked about it with a lot of
14 people. There were some people that took it well. There were
15 some people, like her family and her dad, who took it
16 horribly. But we did start dating.
17 Q Eventually you got married?
18 A And then we got married in 2005. we were still
19 concerned about the law enforcement side of it. But as time
20 passed and nothing happened, we became less and less concerned
21 about it.
22 Q You say that you were still concerned. Did y'all
23 have communications between each other about what would you do
24 if law enforcement ever interviewed?
25 A Right. You know, things would come up in the media. 254 1 we would see things online or in the news. Cheryl, you know,
2 never gave up and kept pushing things. And so from time to
3 time that issue would be raised. And I always wanted to talk
4 about things a lot more than Denise. Denise did not like to
5 talk about anything related to that usually. But we -- you
6 know, we would typically not talk in the house. we would
7 typically talk, you know, out at Lake Ella or a public place,
8 or wherever where we felt like we weren't being monitored,
9 even at that point.
10 Q And did y'all have an agreement -- a pact, the
11 agreement not to talk to law enforcement?
12 A Yes. I mean, we promised each other that neither
13 one of us would ever say anything. Because we knew the only
14 way that -- we felt like the only way they would get anything
15 would be if one of us talked.
16 And, I mean, I was concerned about Denise. If she
17 ever got under that pressure, whether she would hold up to it
18 or not. You know, Kathy actually warned me. I think, the
19 first time I heard Kathy talk about it, she said, you know --
20 Kathy was trying to get me to talk. But, basically, she said,
21 you know you can't trust Denise and she'll throw you under the
22 bus the first chance she gets.
23 Q would it be fair to say that you made assurances to
24 her, being Denise, that you had not told anybody else about
25 this particular case? 255 1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q And did she make assurances to you that she had not
3 told anybody else?
4 A The only person I knew of was Mr. Bunker. But, you
5 know, she didn't say that Mike was murdered or anything like
6 that. She just supposedly --
7 Q The insurance part?
8 A Right.
9 Q Okay. Now, in 2016 you were -- there was the
10 kidnapping arrest?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And following that you confessed to the murder of
13 Mike, correct?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q You led law enforcement to his remains?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q The conversations with Denise leading up to the
18 murder, did they occur in Leon County for the most part?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q The conversations with Denise following the murder,
21 where the agreement was never to talk to law enforcement, did
22 that occur in Leon County, Florida?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q whenever she set up her alibi to stay at home and
25 make phone calls, did that occur in Leon County, Florida? 256 1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q we talked a lot about Denise Winchester or Williams,
3 formerly Winchester. Do you see her here in the courtroom
4 today?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q Can you please point to her and indicate an article
7 of clothing?
8 A An article of clothing? The pink sweater.
9 MR. FUCHS: May the record please reflect he's
10 indicated the defendant, Ms. Denise Williams.
11 I have no further questions at this time.
12 THE COURT: You can step out.
13 So we had talked with the -- I had talked with the
14 attorneys earlier and decided that it was too late to
15 start into the cross-examination by the defense. It's
16 not fair to make them go a little while and then break up
17 their cross-examination.
18 So i hope it doesn't break your heart, but we're
19 going to break for the evening. It's a pretty reasonable
20 time. Just leave your notes where they are. Don't
21 discuss the case with anyone. Don't let anyone discuss
22 the case with you.
23 Let's stay off the internet and social media. Don't
24 review any media accounts of what's going on here. Let's
25 be back tomorrow at 8:45 so we can get started promptly 257 1 with this. The parking arrangement will be the same. So
2 they'll bring you up the back way.
3 Now, somebody ended up over here. I don't know
4 exactly. Don't go to the front of the courtroom. Come
5 to the back so we can get you in the jury room. You
6 don't need to be hanging out over here with the witnesses
7 and so forth.
8 Make sure before they leave, everybody's clear on
9 where they're coming and what the plan is. Anybody
10 confused or have an issue about? If not, we'll let you
11 step out with the bailiff. we'll see you all tomorrow
12 morning, 8:45. Just leave your notes where they are.
13 (Jury exits.)
14 THE COURT: All right. Everybody be seated.
15 Any issues from either side?
16 MR. FUCHS: Not from the State, Your Honor.
17 MR. PADAVANO: Your Honor, while we have a moment, I
18 know you were interested of getting advanced notice of
19 special jury instructions.
20 THE COURT: Correct.
21 MR. PADAVANO: And I just discovered one issue that
22 I didn't think of before. The standard jury instruction
23 on accessory after the fact doesn't have anything in it
24 about the immunity in the statute for husband and wife.
25 And if you look at the statute, the statute requires 258 1 the State to prove that the parties were not in the
2 position of husband and wife. And, in this case, if you
3 look at the dates in the indictment, there's a period of
4 time in which they were married. There's a period of
5 time in the indictment that is after they're married.
6 So I think what we're going to need to do -- and I
7 don't mean to give you a full scale argument. I can have
8 something for you tomorrow. Just -- my intention now is
9 to give you --
10 THE COURT: I thought that applied only if it was a
11 third-degree felony was my --
12 MR. PADAVANO: You know, that could be.
13 THE COURT: -- my recollection of looking at it.
14 And I did consider that issue. But I think in the jury
15 instructions they specify that this only applies if it's
16 not a third-degree felony.
17 MR. PADAVANO: Well, if that's the case, Your Honor,
18 that will resolve the problem. I'll take a look at it
19 again and make sure. But I didn't want to omit that if
20 it was something that we needed to do.
21 THE COURT: Right. If you look at 777.03, the
22 accessory after the fact, 1(a) goes to, you know, what
23 you're talking about, wife or other family member, and
24 such crime was a third-degree felony. I think you need
25 to look at it and be certain of it. But I think that's 259 1 the provision that would come into play.
2 MR. PADAVANO: I'll take your word for it. And
3 maybe this is not an issue at all.
4 THE COURT: And if you think an instruction is
5 appropriate, draft something for me.
6 MR. PADAVANO: Thank you, sir.
7 THE COURT: Anything else?
8 MR. FUCHS: No, Your Honor.
9 THE COURT: So how are we doing time -wise,
10 Mr. Fuchs?
11 MR. FUCHS: A little bit behind schedule, but not
12 much. And we'll make up for it probably tomorrow. I
13 think we'll be all right. we're still in the
14 two -and -a -half, three-day range even with the delay.
15 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. way?
16 MR. WAY: I anticipate having all of my -- I've
17 contacted my witnesses and even the ones traveling will
18 be here Thursday morning, we would not anticipate
19 getting to the defense case, depending on where we are
20 time wise.
21 THE COURT: Certainly not tomorrow. It would look
22 like some time Thursday, probably. Sometimes the days
23 escape you.
24 So sometime Thursday I would think we would be into
25 the defense case. 260 1 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir.
2 MR. WAY: That's what I anticipate, Your Honor.
3 THE COURT: All right. Anything else? If not,
4 we'll see you all 8:30 tomorrow morning.
5 MR. WAY: Yes, Your Honor.
6 MR. FUCHS: Thank you, Your Honor.
7 (Proceedings in the matter concluded for the day.)
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25 261 1 CERTI FICATE
2 STATE OF FLORIDA:
3 COUNTY OF LEON:
4 I, Johana M. Kesterson, Official Reporter, do hereby
5 certify that the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at
6 the time and place therein designated; that my shorthand notes
7 were thereafter translated under my supervision; and the
8 foregoing pages are a true and correct record of the aforesaid
9 proceedings.
10 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative,
11 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor
12 relative or employee of such attorney or counsel , or
13 financially interested in the foregoing action.
14 DATED this 12th day of April, 2019. 15
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20 JOHANA M. KESTERSON OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 21 LEON COUNTY COURTHOUSE TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301 22
23
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25 Filing # 88224026 E -Filed 04/18/20 19 05:27:3 1 PM
262 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SECOND JUDICIAL CIRCUIT, IN AND FOR LEON COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO.: 2018CF1592
STATE OF FLORIDA
vs.
DENISE WILLIAMS,
Defendant. /
VOLUME III Pages 262-396
PROCEEDINGS: JURY TRIAL
BEFORE: THE HONORABLE JAMES C. HANKINSON
DATE: December 12, 2018
TIME: Commencing at 8:31 a.m. Concluding at 11:59 a.m.
LOCATION: Leon County Courthouse Tallahassee, Florida
REPORTED BY: Johana M. Kesterson, Official Reporter Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at Large
JOHANA M. KESTERSON Official Court Reporter Leon County Courthouse, Room 341 Tallahassee, FL 32301 263 1 APPEARANCES
2 REPRESENTING THE STATE:
3 JON FUCHS, ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY JAMES ROGERS, ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY 4 OFFICE OF THE STATE ATTORNEY LEON COUNTY COURTHOUSE 5 TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301
6 REPRESENTING THE DEFENDANT:
7 ETHAN WAY, ESQUIRE WAY LAW FIRM 8 P.O. BOX 10017 TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32302 9 PHILIP J. PADOVANO 10 BRANNOCK & HUMPHRIES 131 N. GADSDEN STREET 11 TALLAHASSEE, FL. 32301
12 INDEX 13 WITNESSES: PAGE:
14 BRIAN WINCHESTER Cross Examination By M. Way 268 15 Redirect Examination By Mr. Fuchs 310 Recross Examination By M. Way 331 16 DR. STEPHEN MNOOKIN 17 Direct Examination By M. Rogers 344 Cross Examination By Mr. Way 346 18 HOWARD DREW 19 Direct Examination By Mr. Fuchs 349
20 LINDSAY LOCKHART Direct Examination By M. Fuchs 356 21 Cross Examination By Mr. Way 362 Redirect Examination By Mr. Fuchs 364 22 ANGELA STAFFORD 23 Direct Examination By Mr. Fuchs 367 Cross Examination By Mr. Way 383 24 Redirect Examination By Mr. Fuchs 392 Recross Examination By Mr. Way 393 25 264 1 EXHIBIT INDEX
2 STATE'S: PAGE:
3 18A -F 313 17 327 4 19 329
5 DEFENDANT'S: PAGE:
6 1 349
7 certificate of Reporter 396
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25 265 1 PROCEEDINGS
2 THE COURT: Everybody be seated.
3 we're here in State of Florida versus Williams,
4 2018CF1592. Let the record reflect Ms. williams is
5 present with her attorneys.
6 So we need to go back to the State's motion in
7 limine. we're about to get into cross-examination.
8 Does the State still wish to be heard on that?
9 MR. ROGERS: Judge, I think that the
10 cross-examination would likely go into the specific bad
11 acts of Brian Winchester in relation to the kidnapping of
12 Denise Winchester. I believe that going into the
13 specific allegations would be improper.
14 THE COURT: How is -- I mean, do you accept their
15 theory that it would show -- or conceivably show that
16 Mr. Winchester was attempting to create evidence to
17 discredit Ms. Williams? Do you agree that's at least
18 one --
19 MR. ROGERS: Yes, Judge. Some of the --
20 THE COURT: -- view of the evidence?
21 MR. ROGERS: Yes, Judge.
22 THE COURT: Well, how is that not bias?
23 MR. ROGERS: I'll concede that, Your Honor.
24 THE COURT: Yeah. Seems to me pretty clear that if
25 that, in fact, is at least the theory of its 266 1 admissibil-ity -- I mean, bias is always admissible. The
2 fact that it may show other allegations of criminal
3 activity doesn't make it inadmissible.
4 I'm going to deny the State's motion in limine.
5 MR. ROGERS: Thank you, Judge.
6 THE COURT: Any other issues we need to take up?
7 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
8 THE COURT: So we're going to --
9 Are you going to have anything further with
10 Mr. Winchester, Mr. Fuchs?
11 MR. FUCHS: I have no further questions at this
12 time.
13 THE COURT: So we're going to go straight into
14 cross-exami nation?
15 MR. WAY: Yes, Your Honor. I didn't know if
16 Mr. Jansen needed to do what he did yesterday again.
17 don't think he does.
18 THE COURT: No. I covered that specifically
19 yesterday, that it included the cross-examination. So I
20 don't think anything further needs to be done on that.
21 MR. WAY: Yes, sir.
22 THE COURT: Did you look at your jury instruction
23 issue, Mr. Padavano?
24 MR. PADAVANO: Yes, sir. I did have a chance to
25 look at that. And I've convinced myself that you were 267 1 right about it. So we're not going to be amending that.
2 THE COURT: Okay. So we'll start with
3 cross-examination. And it will probably be nine o'clock
4 or so before we get all the jurors gathered up.
5 So, anyway. All right.
6 (A recess was had.)
7 THE COURT: Be seated, please, folks.
8 Are we ready for a jury? Ready for the jury?
9 MR. WAY: Yes, sir. I apologize, Your Honor.
10 THE COURT: All right. Let's have a jury, please.
11 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, I think Mr. Jansen wanted to
12 be heard --
13 THE COURT: We talked to him yesterday. We don't
14 need to talk again. Let's have the jury, please.
15 (Jury enters.)
16 THE COURT: All right. Everybody be seated, please.
17 Good morning, folks. Thank you for being back here
18 promptly today. We have a nice chilly morning to get
19 everybody going. I had to figure out where my ice
20 scraper was this morning. I wasn't expecting that. But,
21 anyway, hope everybody's doing well.
22 You may proceed, Mr. Way.
23 MR. WAY: Thank you, Your Honor.
24 whereupon,
25 BRIAN WINCHESTER, 268 1 was recalled as a witness, having been previously duly sworn,
2 was examined and testified as follows:
3 CROSS- EXAMINATION
4 BY MR. WAY:
5 Q Mr. Winchester, you're here today because you
6 received a subpoena from the State of Florida?
7 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I have a question first
8 before we start, if that's all right.
9 THE COURT: No. You can answer his question.
10 You're directed to answer his question.
11 Proceed.
12 THE WITNESS: Am I still under the same compulsion
13 as yesterday?
14 THE COURT: You are.
15 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
16 Yes, sir.
17 BY MR. WAY:
18 Q Mr. Winchester, you are here today because you are
19 under subpoena by the State of Florida?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q Do you understand what immunity means?
22 A I believe so.
23 Q what do you understand it to mean?
24 A That the things that I say here in court cannot be
25 used against me legally. 269 1 Q Did you enter into a proffer agreement with the
2 State of Florida in October of 2017?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q Did you enter into that agreement as it related to
5 the underlying case of kidnapping Denise williams at gunpoint?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q As t related to that agreement that was negotiated
8 between the State of Florida and yourself, you received
9 certain benefits; would you agree with that?
10 A If you want to term it that way, I guess you could
11 say that.
12 Q well, how -- well, let's see how you would term it.
13 You were granted immunity for killing Mike Williams, correct?
14 A I wasn't granted immunity for killing him. I was
15 granted immunity for what I say in court.
16 Q Do you believe that you could be prosecuted for
17 killing Mike Williams?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q Do you think you'll be prosecuted for that?
20 A I hope not.
21 Q Do you believe that your testimony today in any way
22 is going to help the Government prosecute you for that?
23 A No, sir.
24 Q As a part of the proffer agreement in the kidnapping
25 case where you held Denise Williams at gunpoint in her car, 270 1 the State agreed not to seek a life sentence in that case;
2 isn't that true?
3 A They agreed not to seek a life sentence, but asked
4 in court for me to get 45 years. So that's pretty much a life
5 sentence, in my opinion.
6 Q The State also agreed in the proffer agreement that
7 they were not going to advise Judge Hankinson of an individual
8 named wade Wilson or anything that he may know about your
9 case; isn't that true?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q And that proffer agreement, the Government also
12 agreed with you and your lawyers that they would continue --
13 or seek a continuance of your trial date for several months so
14 you could assist in the ongoing investigation?
15 A I don't know what the reasoning for the extension in
16 time. I don't remember what the reason for that was.
17 Q Finally, the proffer agreement also provided you
18 something called "use immunity." Do you remember that?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q And you were also provided something called
21 "derivative immunity."
22 A Right.
23 Q As you sit here today, you have not been charged in
24 the murder of Mike Williams, have you?
25 A No, sir. 271 1 Q You are not in prison for the murder of Mike
2 williams, are you?
3 A No, sir.
4 Q You're in prison today because you are a two-time
5 convicted felon; isn't that true?
6 A Yes, sir. Three time, I believe.
7 Q Take your word for three.
8 Let's go back to August 5th of 2016. Do you recall
9 that date, Mr. Winchester?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q Is that the date you went to Ms. Williams' house?
12 A Early that morning, yes, sir.
13 Q And that was the house on Centennial Oaks?
14 A Correct.
15 Q And you went there about two or three in the
16 morni ng?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q That was the same house that Denise had been living
19 with Mike in in December of 2000, isn't it?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q It was the same house you and Denise Williams lived
22 in up until about 2012 when you separated?
23 A Along with our kids, yes, sir.
24 Q And in December of 2000, you knew that Ms. Williams
25 had -- strike that. 272 1 August 5th of 2016 you were in the middle of a
2 divorce with Ms. Williams, weren't you?
3 A She -- i believe she had filed at that point, yes,
4 sir.
5 Q In fact, she had filed for divorce in 2015; isn't
6 that true?
7 A I don't remember the exact date.
8 Q Do you recall that prior to August 5th of 2016,
9 approximately a month earlier, you were compelled by the
10 Honorable Charles Francis in that very divorce case to begin
11 providing financial records?
12 A Correct.
13 Q And up until Judge Francis had entered that order,
14 you had delayed and tried to block Ms. Williams from going
15 forward with her divorce of you?
16 A I didn't get the paperwork done in time.
17 Q But on the morning of August 5, 2016, you crawled in
18 the back of Ms. Williams' vehicle at about 2:00 or 3:00 a.m.?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q Because that's when it's the darkest?
21 A Right.
22 Q You waited for her?
23 A uh-huh. Yes, sir.
24 Q You had a backpack with you?
25 A Yes, sir. 273 1 Q You had a loaded handgun?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q You had a tarp?
4 A No, sir.
5 Q You didn't have a tarp?
6 A Did not.
7 Q Did you have a blanket?
8 A I had a sheet.
9 Q A sheet. Is that the sheet you were going to use to
10 wrap Ms. williams' body in after you killed her?
11 A No. Absolutely not.
12 Q You had bottles containing fluids?
13 A water. Yes, sir. One water bottle to spray the
14 outside of her car so she couldn't see the inside of the car
15 where I was hiding.
16 Q And you had some kind of tool with you?
17 A She thought I had a tool. It was actually a clip, I
18 believe, to the pistol.
19 Q So it was more bullets for the pistol?
20 A No. It was an empty clip.
21 Q This was an armed kidnapping that you'd planned for
22 over a month?
23 A I thoughtabout itfor amonth.
24 Q You werevery upsetwithMs. Williams, weren't you?
25 A I was angry. 274 1 Q you were angry because she was going forward with
2 the divorce?
3 A I was angry for a lot of reasons besides that.
4 Q She hadn't been talking to you in the week prior,
5 had she?
6 A No.
7 Q okay. what were you going to get her to do after --
8 well, let me back up. About 7:00 a.m. Ms. Williams
9 got in her vehicle to go to work?
10 A Right.
11 Q So at about that point in time you had been sitting
12 in the back of her car for up to five hours?
13 A Right.
14 Q You had a bottle of water that you were going to use
15 to spray to cover the windows so she couldn't see you?
16 A I did do that. Right.
17 Q And then as she got in her vehicle to go to work,
18 you crawled up over the back seat and shoved a gun into her
19 ribs, didn't you?
20 A I didn't shove a gun in her ribs. I didn't pull the
21 gun out until later. And I had it at her side for ten
22 seconds, tops. She didn't even know the gun was there until I
23 told her later what it was.
24 Q You had a gun?
25 A I had agun. 275 1 Q You didn't have a bouquet of flowers?
2 A Correct.
3 Q You had a gun? A loaded handgun?
4 A Right.
5 Q She screamed, didn't she?
6 A Screamed?
7 Q Yeah. when she found out that you had crawled over
8 the back seat of her vehicle in the early morning hours of
9 August 5,2016, she screamed, didn't she?
10 A She was on the phone. And I took the phone and hung
11 the phone up. we yelled at each other. She stopped the car
12 in the middle of the road. I was worried a car was going to
13 hit us from behind, so I yelled at her to drive, drive.
14 she -- i don't remember her screaming, no, sir. But,
15 obviously, she was alarmed. Yes.
16 Q Yeah. Because you had been hiding in the back of
17 her vehicle. You crawled over a couple rows of seats and you
18 had something, which you're telling us now you didn't tell her
19 was a gun until later --
20 THE COURT: Mr. Way, we're not going to just
21 reiterate testimony.
22 MR. WAY: Yes, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: If you have a new question, please ask
24 it.
25 BY MR. WAY: 276 1 Q At some point she eventually was able to talk you
2 down?
3 A At some point I calmed down and realized how
4 ridiculous this whole situation was.
5 Q well, it was a little more than ridiculous. It was
6 criminal, wasn't it?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q And at some point on August 5,2016, to the best of
9 your knowledge, Ms. Williams made contact with law enforcement
10 and you were arrested that day?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And that is the last day that you have been a free
13 man in the state of Florida, isn't it?
14 A Correct.
15 Q After you were arrested, there was opportunity for
16 you to have hearings related to a bond. Do you recall that?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q Do you recall you were not granted a bond?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q Do you recall if you were aware that Ms. Williams
21 vigorously opposed you receiving any kind of bond?
22 A At those hearings, yes. Correct. Earlier she
23 questioned whether I should -- she even should have gone to
24 the police.
25 Q But after August 5th of 2016, up until the time you 277 1 were sentenced, you were in jail and you were not getting out
2 of jail. And Ms. williams had made her position clear that
3 she wanted you to be -- to remain incarcerated?
4 A After she changed her position, yes. After she got
5 interviewed by FDLE and realized that she had opened up a can
6 of worms with the murder that we committed together, you're
7 right, she changed her position and started asking for life in
8 prison for me.
9 Q But the penalty for the armed kidnapping is life in
10 prison, isn't it?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And, as you testified earlier concerning your
13 agreement with the State, based on that proffer agreement, the
14 State wasn't going to ask for that life in prison, were they?
15 A I'm sorry. Can you say it again?
16 Q You had just indicated that Ms. Williams was seeking
17 life in prison, correct?
18 A Right.
19 Q But life in prison is the possible punishment for
20 the crimes to which you pled?
21 A Correct.
22 Q And you made a deal with the Government not to get
23 that life sentence?
24 A You're terming it a deal. It was a proffer
25 agreement. And, yes, it restricted them from asking for life. 278 1 But they subsequently asked for 45 years. I don't call that a
2 great deal
3 Q well, what were you ultimately sentenced to?
4 A what was I ultimately sentenced to?
5 Q How long will you be in prison?
6 A Twenty years.
7 Q okay. Is your tentative release date 2036?
8 A I don't know exactly.
9 Q You don't know when you are likely to get out of
10 prison for the kidnapping of Denise Williams?
11 A Add 20 years to whenever I was arrested. I don't
12 have a calendar in front of me.
13 Q But it is your understanding and belief that you
14 will one day walk out of the Florida Prison System?
15 A If I survive it.
16 Q Let's go back to the very beginning of your
17 involvement with Denise Williams. You've known each other
18 since you were both very young, haven't you?
19 A Preschool
20 Q And that would be at Parkway Baptist Church as
21 toddlers?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q And then you and Ms. Williams went on to Holy
24 Comforter together?
25 A Middle school. 279 1 Q And after you went to Holy Comforter, you and
2 Ms. williams attended North Florida Christian, correct?
3 A High school.
4 Q Class of 1988?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q And that's the same high school you went to with
7 Mike williams and with Kathy Aldridge, who later became your
8 wife?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q And when you were in high school you dated Kathy
11 Aldridge?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q And Denise dated Mike?
14 A Correct.
15 Q And it was at that point in time when you were at
16 high school and after that you two, as couples, and the four
17 of you as individual friends would do things together,
18 correct?
19 A It primarily started, I guess, later in college.
20 Q And after college you all four remained very close
21 friends, correct?
22 A Yes.
23 Q You went on trips together?
24 A Yes.
25 Q went to local nightclubs together? 1 A Yes.
2 Q Restaurants?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q went to each other's houses?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q You had indicated that you started an intense
7 affair, I believe your testimony was some time on October 13,
8 1997 at Floyd's music store. was that your testimony?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q And that relationship turned into something where
11 you were calling Ms. Williams up to 12 times a day sometimes,
12 on the phone?
13 A I'm sure there was a day where I called her 12 times
14 a day probably. But,I mean, we talked or saw each other
15 routinely, regularly.
16 Q During this time frame, where was Ms. Williams
17 worki ng?
18 A At first she was at SBA, State Board of
19 Administration.
20 Q She only had a 30 -minute lunch break at the State
21 Board, didn't she?
22 A I don't know how long her lunch break was, but she
23 routinely was late getting back from lunch.
24 Q Because you previously indicated that you and
25 Ms. Williams would have sex up to 15 times a week. Do you 281 1 recall ever telling me that?
2 A I gave a range, I believe.
3 Q was 15 the top of the range?
4 A Yes, sir. Maybe. I mean, I don't know.
5 Q You had indicated that the sex -- the sex acts that
6 took place up to 15 times a week would take place in public
7 places, including the top of the Capitol?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q And no one ever saw you?
10 A I'm sure people saw us. But we were very good at
11 hiding things. Denise is a very smart person. I'm probably
12 not as smart as her. But we were pretty good at getting away
13 with things.
14 Q well, let's talk about that. If you're very good at
15 getting away with things and no one saw you, how is on
16 December 16, 2000, after you shot Mike Williams in the face,
17 that you ran across two individuals that very day who may have
18 been law enforcement officers? You ran across Mike Phillips
19 at wal-Mart, correct?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q And Mike Phillips is an agent with the Florida
22 Department of Law Enforcement?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q And you ran across another gentleman at the end of
25 Gardener Road who you believed was a wildlife officer? 282 1 A Right.
2 Q So on the day that you shoot your best friend in the
3 face you come across two people, just at random, both of who
4 may be in law enforcement?
5 A I also pulled up at a stoplight next to -- or across
6 from a state patrol officer. But I didnTt have any control
7 over any of those occurrences.
8 Q Thank you. So you had a third potential contact
9 with law enforcement on that day?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q But in this three-year affair that you said included
12 sex up to 15 times a week, you have no recollection of anyone
13 ever discovering that?
14 A Three-year affair?
15 Q well, 1995 to 2000.
16 A 2005.
17 Q Okay.
18 A Eight -year.
19 Q Eight -year. Nobody ever found out?
20 A Nobody ever found out?
21 Q In 2000, Mr. Winchester --
22 THE COURT: wait a minute. I think he's asking you
23 to clarify is that the question, Mr. Way.
24 MR. WAY: Let me rephrase the question.
25 283 1 BY MR. WAY:
2 Q Over this eight years you just testified to, do you
3 know of anyone who visibly observed you in an affair with
4 Ms. Williams?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q Who?
7 A Randy Clutcher.
8 Q Okay. Randy Clutcher. Who is he?
9 A Randy owned a business in town on Tennessee Street.
10 I was friends with him. Denise and I ran into him coming out
11 of a strip --I hate to do this to you, Randy -- but he was
12 coming out of a strip club in Panama City when Denise and I
13 were walking inside.
14 I took Denise out on a boat with a good friend of
15 mine, Lance Walker. Lied to him, told him Denise was my
16 cousin. He came up to me later and said, that's not your
17 cousin, bro.
18 We ran into Denise's sister at the mall one time.
19 I'm sure there's numerous times that I'm not even aware of
20 that we were seen or observed by people.
21 Q well, that's observed by people in general. I think
22 my question was more, did anyone observe you having -- you
23 know, in these trysts that you indicated occurred in public
24 places.
25 But let me follow up with what you had just said. 1 You and Denise williams were friends, correct? You were
2 lifelong friends.
3 A when?
4 Q From third grade at Parkway Baptist, allthe way up
5 to probably when she separated from you in 2012?
6 A Right.
7 Q So it's not uncommon for you to be seenout in
8 publicwith someone you've known since they were three,is it?
9 A when you're married to other people andyou're going
10 into strip clubs together, I think that's a littleodd.
11 Q well, the strip club trip, when was that?
12 A which one?we went to strip clubs --
13 Q The one you just talked about.
14 A -- regularly.
15 Q The one you just talked about with Randyin the
16 Panamacity. what year was that?
17 A I couldn't tell you.
18 Q okay. was it after Mike was killed?
19 A I'm not sure.
20 Q Because after Mike was killed, thanks toyou,
21 Ms. Williams' was a widow at that point?
22 A Thanks to me?
23 Q Yeah. You killed her husband. She wasn'tmarried
24 to himafter you killed him.
25 In 2000 you were working as a financialplanner for 285 1 your father --
2 THE COURT: The jury will disregard the comments
3 from Mr. Way. He's here to ask questions. And you're to
4 consider the answers to those questions, not the comments
5 by the attorneys.
6 MR. WAY: Acknowledged, Your Honor.
7 THE COURT: Thank you.
8 BY MR. WAY:
9 Q Mr. Winchester, in 2000 you were working as a
10 financial planner?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And in your role as financial planner you sold
13 insurance?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q You handled investments and money matters for your
16 clients?
17 A Correct.
18 Q Did your clients include friends of yours from North
19 Florida Christian?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q Did they also include Denise Williams and some of
22 her family members?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q In fact, you had handled financial matters for
25 Ms. Williams' sisters, or some of her sisters? 1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q And you were Mike williams' financial planner?
3 A I was one.
4 Q Because he had sought advice from other individuals
5 that you became aware of?
6 A He had a large account at Merrill Lynch. And he had
7 a relationship with a man that sold him the Cotton States
8 Policy.
9 Q Now, you previously testified -- I just want to
10 confirm this. You previously testified that Denise Williams
11 didn't want to be a divorcee?
12 A Right.
13 Q Except when it came to you; is that fair to say?
14 A Sure.
15 Q You've testified -- or you've indicated that part of
16 the reason why you killed Mike Williams was because you wanted
17 to be with Denise Williams. You wanted to be with her
18 romantically.
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q But as it came to pass after you murdered Mike
21 williams, you did not, in fact, come to be with Ms. Williams
22 exclusively. You were still married to Kathy Thomas, weren't
23 you?
24 A I was still married to her when the murder occurred.
25 Yes, sir. 287 1 Q In fact, you didn't get divorced until 2003?
2 A Right.
3 Q And around the same time frame, Ms. Williams was
4 involved in a romantic relationship with Charles Bunker?
5 A Okay.
6 Q Well, Charles Bunker -- you testified yesterday you
7 were aware that Ms. Williams and Mr. Bunker went to Atlanta.
8 Do you recall that?
9 A Yes, sir. we talked about it yesterday.
10 Q okay. And you recall that that made you angry?
11 A Yes, sir. I felt very betrayed by that.
12 Q Because Mr. Bunker and Ms. Williams were in a
13 physical, intimate relationship, weren't they?
14 A At the same time she was in a physical, intimate
15 relationship with me, right.
16 Q So you weren't with her exclusively and she wasn't
17 with you exclusively, according to your testimony?
18 A We were supposed to be together exclusively. But,
19 yes, I cheated on her and she cheated on me. So we were equal
20 cheaters. Actually, she was first. I forgot.
21 Q The trip you went on with Mike where you drove
22 several hours, that was to Arkansas?
23 A Twenty hours. Yes, sir.
24 Q And that was the trip where Mike indicated he was
25 unhappy with his marriage? 1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q And he wanted to move out west.
3 A That was one thing that he brought up.
4 Q And how long was it before you murdered Mike that
5 this hunting trip occurred?
6 A It was in November.
7 Q So it was about a month before you killed him?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q And you didn't just tell him to go ahead and file
10 for divorce and move out west?
11 A I should have.
12 Q Because, according to your testimony, a month before
13 you killed Mike williams, he's giving you an indication that
14 he's frustrated in his marriage and he wants to perhaps move
15 away. Isn't that --
16 A No. He wasn't saying alone. He was talking about
17 all of them.
18 Q He was unhappy in his marriage and so he was going
19 to take his --
20 A Family and move out west.
21 Q okay. But you didn't encourage him to do that;
22 instead you killed him?
23 A That's what we did. Yes.
24 Q Well, that's what we did. when you shot Mike
25 Williams at Lake Seminole with a 12 -gauge shotgun, was Denise 1 williams standing there with you?
2 A No, she wasn't. She was in my head. Behind me.
3 Q She was in your head?
4 A uh-huh.
5 Q Is it fair to say that over the years you've been
6 obsessed with Denise Williams?
7 A Obsessed? Denise and I were best friends. we were
8 Bonnie and Clyde. we were partners in crime, were we
9 obsessed with each other?
10 Q I'm not asking you if she was obsessed with you --
11 THE COURT: He's answering your question, I think,
12 Mr. Way. Let him finish.
13 THE WITNESS: You could say that. I won't argue
14 with you on that.
15 BY MR. WAY:
16 Q Prior to the hunting trip to Lake Seminole in
17 December 16, 2000, you talked with Mike every day by phone?
18 A I mean, maybe not every single day. But very
19 regularly, yes, sir.
20 Q You previously indicated that as it relates to this
21 case and investigation, you were worried about phone records.
22 But it seems to me around 2000 you spent a lot of time on the
23 phone.
24 A Yes.
25 Q You spent a lot of time on the phone with Denise? 290 1 A Yes.
2 Q You spenta lotof timeon thephone with Mike?
3 A Right. wewereworriedaboutit being around the
4 murder.
5 Q You told Mike that you were going to take him
6 hunting to a super -secret place?
7 A I don't know exactly what words I used, but that's
8 the way that I framed it, was that it was a special spot that
9 we needed to use waders to get into.
10 Q But, in fact, you've hunted out of Lake Seminole
11 before, haven't you?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q And Mike Williams had hunted out of Lake Seminole
14 before?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q And you and Mike have both hunted together at Lake
17 Seminole before?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q There's nothing really secret about going to Lake
20 Seminole; is there?
21 A It's a 20,000 -acre. Lake there's plenty of spots
22 that people don't know about. And when you find a spot that
23 has a lot of ducks, then you refer to it as a honey hole or a
24 secret spot or -- you know, it's like fishing.
25 Q Did you tell Mike where this honey hole was? where 291 1 this secret spot was in the lake?
2 A No.
3 Q You got to Lake Seminole with Mike about 3:30 or
4 4:30 a.m.?
5 A I don't know if it was that early. I think we met
6 between 3:30 and 4:30. But it was earlier than it would have
7 normally been because I was trying to get back in time to meet
8 my father-in-law.
9 Q And, of course, as you're aware, the area around
10 Lake Seminole where you put in, in Sneads, is in the Central
11 time zone, correct?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q So if it was 4:30 in the morning here, it would be
14 3:30 local time at Lake Seminole?
15 A I didn't care about what time it was over there.
16 Q So you get him out of the boat. You rock the boat
17 or did you push him out?
18 A when i pushed him out of the boat?
19 Q Did you stand up or did you just rock the boat?
20 A He stood up.
21 Q what did you do then?
22 A I pushed him out of the boat.
23 Q Did you stand up to push him or did you push him
24 from where you were sitting down?
25 A No. I was sitting in the seat in the back. 292 1 Q Falls in the water. The water -- is it dark out?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q The water is black?
4 A Right.
5 Q There's no light?
6 A we had lights on the boat. But, yes, it was dark.
7 Q How far away from the boat was he after you pushed
8 him in?
9 A After I pushed him in, how far from the boat was he?
10 Q Yeah. How far did he get from the boat?
11 A After he went in the water I motored away from him
12 just a little bit, because I was worried he would try to get
13 back into the boat. And then I kind of slowly circled around
14 out of range where he was at.
15 Q And it was during this time that he swam to the
16 stump?
17 A Right.
18 Q So now Mr. Williams is holding on to the stump.
19 when you see him -- how do you see him? How are you able to
20 tell that he's holding on to the stump?
21 A Because I can see him.
22 Q All right. Did you see him off of a light that you
23 had or off a boat light?
24 A I believe I had a headlamp on. It's a light you
25 wear on your head. 293 1 Q How far did -- how close did you get to Mike when
2 you saw him holding on to that stump?
3 A At what point?
4 Q Let's use the point when you shot him in the face.
5 A when that happened he was in front of me to the
6 right. And I took the boat to the left of him and approached
7 him. And when I got to whatever -- I guess I felt like I
8 needed to, that I needed to do that before he could grab on to
9 the boat, that's when I shot him.
10 Q How close were you?
11 A The boat was moving. So, I'm guessing, you know --
12 you asked me this before and I think I said between three and
13 12 feet or something like that. But, as I've thought about it
14 since then, I thought about the fact that the boat was moving
15 towards him, so -- you know, I'm going to say three feet.
16 Q Okay. And this is because you've had an opportunity
17 since we last talked to think about your testimony. And now
18 it's closer to three feet instead of what you previously told
19 me?
20 A what didI previouslytell you?
21 Q Three to12 feet.
22 A So threefeet, yes, sir.
23 Q So now it's-- so you'reup close to him, three
24 feet. You can seehis face atthree feet, can't you?
25 A I can seethe outlineof him, yes. 294 1 Q Three feet is a very short distance?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q what's he saying to you?
4 A He was yelling.
5 Q You said yesterday that you had to load your
6 shotgun. Is that because you had to put a round in the
7 chamber?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q what kind of gun did you have?
10 A what name brand?
11 Q No. Just pump, over-under?
12 A Pump.
13 Q So that would require you tomanually pump a round
14 into thechamber. It makes a noise,doesn't it?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q It's distinctive noise, isn'tit?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q what did Mike Williams do whenhe heard you put a
19 round inthe shotgun?
20 A He didn't -- he didn't sayanything about that.
21 don't know that he heard me or not.
22 Q well, you were almost threefeet to him.
23 A That's not when I loaded thegun.
24 Q well, how far away were youwhen you loaded the gun?
25 A It was while I was circlinghim, so -- 295 1 Q And you're circling him while he's in this stump
2 field?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q You taking care to avoid the stumps around him?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q Trying tonavigate your boat through a stump field
7 to find yourfriendin pitch black holding on to a stump?
8 A I wasn'tnavigating trying to find him. He was from
9 me to youand I wascircling around him.
10 Q He's fromme to you and you're circling. Did you go
11 behind himor do youjust circle around in front of him?
12 A A circlegoes completely around.
13 Q So you wouldgo around from his front to his back
14 and backaround tohis front?
15 A I was goingaround in a continuous circle.
16 Q And he'syelling at you?
17 A He's yellingfor help.
18 Q But thenyou close distance in that boat, after you
19 had loadeda roundinto the chamber of that shotgun, correct?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q You getto about threefeet away from him and you
22 see him. Do youhave to aim thegun?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q And you aimed it at him?
25 A Yes, sir. 296 1 Q You pulled the trigger.
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q He was holding on to that stump, wasn'the?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q And then he wasn't?
6 A Right.
7 Q How long did it take you to circle backaround to
8 pull hisnow lifeless body out of the water?
9 A I circled immediately around.
10 Q How did you know where to grab him? It'spitch
11 black; the water's dark.
12 A Because I knew where the stump was.
13 Q It was messy wasn't it?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q Did you look to see if there was any blood or any
16 other matter on the stump after you shot him?
17 A No, sir.
18 Q You dragged his lifeless body back to the shore, ran
19 down andgot your truck, didn't you?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q Did you just leave his body just layingthere on the
22 shore?
23 A I believe I left it in the water.
24 Q Did you pull it up so it wouldn't driftoff,
25 wouldn'tsink? 297 1 A No. It was very shallow there on the shore. And I
2 didn't want anybody to see it while I was gone.
3 Q Did you look to see if there was any blood or any
4 results of what you had done there as the body just laid?
5 A No. I didn't want to see any of it.
6 Q You didn't look around to see if there was anything,
7 any blood?
8 A He was in the water.
9 Q At some point in time you loaded him in the back of
10 your vehicle on an incline?
11 A At the edge of the water, yes, sir.
12 Q You sped back to Tallahassee, didn't you?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q with your best friend in the back of a suburban with
15 nothing covering his body?
16 A Nothing covering it?
17 Q You didn't put anything over his body, did you?
18 A There was a large dog crate in the back of my truck,
19 a plastic dog crate. And I put the top half of his body into
20 the dog crate because I knew he would be bleeding and I didn't
21 want to get blood everywhere if possible. And that's where he
22 was.
23 Q Did you shove your best friend's body into the dog
24 crate while you were at Lake Seminole or did you stop
25 somewhere along the line to make that happen? 1 A That happened at the lake.
2 Q Denise williams had no idea that you shot her
3 husband in the face with a shotgun, did she?
4 A Correct.
5 Q She didn't learn or would not have been able to
6 learn that you shot her husband in the face with a shotgun
7 until after your proffer and testimony became public?
8 A Actually, I tried to tell her about it one day. And
9 she did not want to know the details. She told me that she
10 assumed that, obviously, when his body was never found, that
11 what we had planned did not happen.
12 And that it never made sense to her that I was able
13 to get to the shoreline but he wasn't. But that it was okay.
14 And we were forgiven. And we were like David and Bathsheba
15 and God was going to forgive us. And we didn't have to tell
16 anybody about it. As long as we asked forgiveness from God,
17 it was okay for us not to confess it to anybody else.
18 Q David looked down from the palace to Bathsheba,
19 didn't he?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q So you killed uriah?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q You coveted Denise the same way that the good King
24 David coveted Bathsheba?
25 A Yes, sir. 299 1 Q That didn't end well for them, did it?
2 A No.
3 Q But to be clear, you never told Denise williams that
4 you shot her husband?
5 A She didn't let me tell her that, no. And I didn't
6 want to tell her that.
7 Q You came back to Tallahassee; you crawled in bed
8 with your wife?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q was your left arm still soaking wet from where you
11 had reached into the water to pull Mike's lifeless body out?
12 A I don't remember. I doubt it. I don't know.
13 Q You crawl in bed. How long were you in bed with
14 your wife before you decided to get up and go to wal-Mart.
15 A very briefly. Long enough for me to try to get her
16 to realize that I had overslept and make the phone call to my
17 father-in-law. And I wanted to get out of there as quick as I
18 could before she woke up and started going about the house.
19 Q And it was at that point then you went to wal-Mart
20 to get a tarp and a shovel?
21 A I got a tarp, a shovel and weights.
22 Q And then you took Mike to Carr Lake?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q Took him out of the dog carrier that you'd left his
25 body in? 300 1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q You buried him?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q You then had to go back to your parents' house, wash
5 the blood out of the back of the truck, didn't you?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q were your parents home?
8 A I don't remember. If they were, I was not looking
9 for them. I did not want to run into anybody.
10 Q You had indicated earlier that at some point in time
11 your father, Marcus Winchester, called you and wanted you to
12 go to Lake Seminole with him?
13 A Later that evening.
14 Q Did your father call you from his house or was he
15 already on the way?
16 A I don't know where he was.
17 Q Did you meet up with him and ride together?
18 A I believe we did.
19 Q Where did you get up and ride together from?
20 A I don't remember.
21 Q Could it have been your father's house?
22 A Could have been.
23 Q When you got to Lake Seminole that evening, did you
24 see Scott Dungey.
25 A I don't remember if Scott was there that evening or 301 1 not. I remember Denise's dad was there. I want to say
2 Mr. Martin was there. I don't remember who else was there.
3 Q How many times did you see Scott Dungey at Lake
4 Seminole during the time they were searching for Mike as a
5 missing person?
6 A Scott was probably there every day.
7 Q How many times do you think you saw him?
8 A Thirty to -- I don't know. Probably 30 times.
9 Q You and Scott Dungey went to North Florida Christian
10 together?
11 A He went to school with all of us, yes, sir.
12 Q So he knew who you were?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q And you knew who he was?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q You saw him about 30 times?
17 A Probably. Yes, sir.
18 Q After you killed Mike, you and your father's agency
19 were the ones that started initiating the process to collect
20 insurance, correct?
21 A I was not in a hurry for that process to start.
22 thought it would look suspicious and kind of wanted things to
23 drag out. It was really my dad that instigated and kind of
24 started that process.
25 Q He dealt directly with the insurance companies? 302 1 A I'm sorry?
2 Q He dealt directly with the insurance companies?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q you indicated earlier that you believed it was your
5 father who put Ms. Williams in contact with attorney Curt
6 Hunter?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q And all around this time, you're still married to
9 Kathy, aren't you?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q In fact, up until September of 2001, you and Kathy
12 are living in the same house, correct?
13 A That sounds about right.
14 Q I believe you also --
15 THE COURT: I didn't say anything.
16 MR. WAY: I'm sorry.
17 THE COURT: Was there something?
18 MR. WAY: I don't know. I heard something.
19 THE COURT: Okay. Anyway. Proceed on.
20 MR. WAY: It's my bad hearing. I apologize, Your
21 Honor.
22 BY MR. WAY:
23 Q Around this time, according to your previous
24 testimony, you indicated that you were also having a
25 relationship with Angela Stafford some time in 2001? 303 1 A I wouldn't term it a relationship. I mean, we had a
2 few incidenceswhere we met up. Hooked up, met up. But, no,
3 I wouldn'tcall it a relationship.
4 Q were these hookups of an intimate nature?
5 A A few of them were.
6 Q So you weren't together with Denise? Youwere still
7 marriedto Kathy and you're also seeing Angela?
8 A Are you asking when that happened?
9 Q well, at least in this time frame I justspoke about
10 around2001; is that a fair statement?
11 A I think Angela was after Kathy and I wereseparated.
12 I wasn'tgoing out partying with Denise and Angelaleaving my
13 wife atthe house. So I think we were separated atthat
14 point.
15 Q You finally got divorced from Kathy on March26,
16 2003. Do you recall that, that final hearing?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q Happened right here in this courthouse?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q And that was the time where you tried tostop her
21 from goingthrough with the divorce. Do you recallthat?
22 A when?
23 Q At that very hearing on March 26th.
24 A I tried to stop her?
25 Q You sat in the pew -- or the seat one rowbehind her 304 1 and you cried; do you remember that?
2 A I cried, yes, sir. I don't know that that's trying
3 to stop her. But, yes,I cried. I was not happy. I was
4 upset about it.
5 Q But you told her you didn't want to go through with
6 the divorce that day, didn't you?
7 A I don't remember telling her that, no, sir.
8 Q You would just be sitting there crying.
9 You wanted to get back with Kathy Thomas after that
10 divorce was finalized in 2003, didn't you?
11 A I didn't want to get back with Kathy until after
12 Denise and I had the incidences with Chuck Bunker. And I was
13 just done with all of it.
14 And I went to church, like I said yesterday, kind of
15 had a spiritual reawakening. And then over the next, maybe
16 six months or so, became convinced that I needed to try to get
17 back with Kathy. It wasn't something that I really wanted to
18 do. It was something that I felt like I should do. That t
19 was the right thing to do.
20 Q That spiritual reawakening and the right thing to
21 do, that also may cover confessing one's sins, wouldn't it?
22 A Yes, sir. It should.
23 Q You didn't confess the sin of murder to anyone, did
24 you?
25 A No, we haven't. I have. But we haven't. 305 1 Q we'll get to that in a little bit.
2 THE COURT: Mr. Way.
3 Q At one point in time I believe you had indicated
4 that Ms. Thomas had used the term, throw you under the bus, as
5 it related to Denise.
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q In fact, when you gave your first proffer to the
8 Florida Department of Law Enforcement on October 9, 2017,
9 didn't you use a very similar phrase, throwing someone under
10 the bus?
11 A when i gave my first --
12 Q First statement to law enforcement as part of the
13 proffer.
14 A Right. Did I use that phrase?
15 Q Yeah. Do you recall saying, I don't want to
16 emotionally throw her under the bus?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q But in 2017, the bus you were being thrown under was
19 the armed kidnapping bus. That was what you were facing.
20 Those were the charges you were facing in October of 2017,
21 weren't they?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q And those charges stemmed from Ms. Williams being
24 the victim?
25 A Yes, sir. 306 1 Q Now, you got to jail on August 5,2016 on the
2 charges of armed kidnapping. But you didn't straight away go
3 to law enforcement and volunteer the details of the Mike
4 williams murder, did you?
5 A Absolutely not.
6 Q In fact, while you were in jail awaiting the
7 resolution of your kidnapping case, you decided you were going
8 to take certain steps to try to frustrate the prosecution of
9 the armed kidnapping case; isn't that true?
10 A Yes, sir. I was desperate to do anything that I
11 possibly could to avoid going to prison.
12 Q And that included obstructing justice, didn't it?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q That included approaching an individual named wade
15 wilson and offering to have him paid money to try to influence
16 the outcome of your kidnapping case?
17 A I don't know who approached who initially. But he
18 and I had discussions along those lines, yes, sir.
19 Q was there ever any discussion about paying wade
20 Wilson to kill Denise williams?
21 A Wade brought up the fact that he had been a hitman
22 in his past. I think he was lying. But he did offer to make
23 Denise go away and make other witnesses in the case go away.
24 And I said, don't ever speak to me of that again.
25 Q Okay. So you were drawing the line at having 307 1 witnesses eliminated?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q But you were not drawing the line at having witness
4 testimony and other evidence fabricated?
5 A Correct.
6 Q And you talked with other people about helping you
7 fabricate evidence and develop ways to frustrate the
8 prosecution; isn't that true?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q Talked to a woman named Kimberly Adams?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q In fact, you offered her money to try to help you
13 obstruct justice and witness tamper?
14 A No, sir. I didn't offer her money.
15 Q Did she end up getting money from you or a family
16 member?
17 A I think she got money from my dad. But that was not
18 a quid pro -- pro-- I can't say that. But it was not pay you
19 to do this.
20 Q okay. So her role in helping you obstruct justice
21 and tamper with witnessing, she was going to do that for free?
22 A I don't believe she ever did anything. I just asked
23 her to do things. You know,I don't -- none of the people
24 that I asked to help me out of my situation ended up helping
25 me in any way, so. 1 Q You didn't want to go to prison. You didn't want to
2 pay the consequences for what you had done, did you?
3 A Just like Denise. Right.
4 Q Okay. One of the people that you tried to implicate
5 in this was a Jennifer winchester, correct?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q who is Jennifer Winchester?
8 A My sister.
9 Q Is she your only sister?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q After the summer of 2017 passed, did you become
12 aware that law enforcement had learned of your arrangement
13 with wade Wilson?
14 A I -- yes, sir.
15 Q And at that point in time, after learning of the
16 arrangement with wade Wilson, that scared you even more than
17 facing just armed kidnapping charges, because now you were
18 tampering with witnesses?
19 A Yes, sir. Lying was just making things worse for
20 me.
21 Q And you knew you were looking at life in prison?
22 A I was already facing life in prison, but --
23 Q It was getting worse?
24 A It was getting worse.
25 Q You had a very -- you had a very firm judge, didn't 309 1 you?
2 A Hangman Hankinson. Yes, sir.
3 Q I'm not going to comment on that.
4 But you knew that -- you knew that things -- your
5 situation, not only from the armed kidnapping, but now with
6 the witness tampering and obstruction of justice, it had
7 gotten worse?
8 A Yes, sir. Lying was making things worse.
9 Q So, in October of 2017, this proffer agreement is
10 negoti ated?
11 A Okay.
12 Q well?
13 A I don't remember the exact dates. But, yes, there
14 was a proffer agreement that came about.
15 Q And to try to help yourself out of the situation
16 that you had put yourself in with the armed kidnapping and
17 with the obstruction of justice, you give to the State
18 information related to where they can find the body of Mike
19 Williams?
20 A I was asked to provide any and all information that
21 I knew about the Mike Williams' case in exchange for the
22 things that you talked about earlier.
23 Q And you got the benefits that we talked about
24 earlier. But you got one more benefit, didn't you? You got
25 the benefit of seeing Denise Williams arrested, locked up and 310 1 brought to trial.
2 A That's not a benefit.
3 Q You got the revenge for her putting you in the same
4 situation, you wanted to put her in?
5 A No, sir. I wouldn't want to put anybody in this
6 situation. She got herself in this situation.
7 Q well, you would put your sister in the situation of
8 tampering with witnesses?
9 A I asked her for help, yes, sir.
10 Q You would put Kim Adams in the situation of
11 tampering with witnesses?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q You have a history of trying to plant evidence. You
14 put a fake hat out at the crime scene where you shot Mike
15 Williams in 2001, didn't you?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q Mr. Winchester, you're a murderer; isn't it true?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q Mr. winchester, you're a liar; isn't it true?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 MR. WAY: I have nothing else, Your Honor.
22 THE COURT: Redirect?
23 MR. FUCHS: Yes, Your Honor.
24 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
25 311 1 BY MR. FUCHS:
2 Q Let's talk about the proffer agreement just a little
3 bit. As it relates to the proffer agreement, you were to give
4 testimony having to do with what happened to Mike williams,
5 correct?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q Is t not true, as part of that proffer agreement,
8 that if you lied or found to be perjured in any way, shape or
9 form, that those statements can actually be used against you?
10 A It was made explicitly clear to me, particularly by
11 the five attorneys that I had helping me on my case, that if I
12 decided to go forth and give a proffer and give information
13 about the Mike Williams' case, that I absolutely, positively
14 needed to tell the truth. because if there was any element
15 that was not true of what I came forward and said, then
16 whatever i said could be used against me and the agreement
17 would be null and void, yes, sir.
18 Q And as you mentioned earlier, one of the
19 conditions -- the only condition, really, was -- well, the two
20 conditions is, you get immunity, but also that the State would
21 not be asking for life?
22 A And there would be no information brought up about
23 wade Wilson, yes, sir.
24 Q State asked for 45 years --
25 A Yes, sir. 312 1 Q -- despite that?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q You actually got 20 years in Department of
4 Corrections?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q Tenyears of whichis a mandatory -minimum, correct?
7 Day forday?
8 A Yes,sir.
9 Q Andthat's notall,is it?
10 A No,sir.
11 Q whatelse is apartof that?
12 A 15years of GPSmonitoredprobation.
13 Q Soeven if youareable to get out of prison, you've
14 got 15 yearsprobation onthebackside of that as well
15 correct?
16 A I think until I'm 80.
17 Q LetTs go back a little bit. You said you separated
18 from Kathy when?
19 A He said in 2001. I'm -- that sounds about right.
20 Q okay. September 2001?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 MR. FUCHS: A little bit out of order number -wise,
23 Your Honor. These are not on the exhibit list. But
24 these are Exhibit No. 18A through F.
25 Your Honor, if I can approach? 313 1 THE COURT: You may.
2 MR. FUCHS: Thank you.
3 BY MR. FUCHS:
4 Q Mr. winchester, I ask you to take a look at those
5 particular items without showing them to the jury, please.
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q Do you recognize those items?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q what do those items appear to be?
10 A Tickets to concerts that Denise and I went to.
11 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, at this time I would move
12 State's Exhibit No. 18A through F into evidence, please.
13 THE COURT: Is there objection?
14 MR. WAY: No, there isn't, Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: will be admitted.
16 (State's Exhibit No. 18A -F received in evidence.)
17 BY MR. FUCHS:
18 Q The first ticket there -- actually, whatTs the date
19 of that very first one?
20 A The one that was on top is 10/21/99.
21 Q Now, that's prior to Mike's death?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q Is that a concert that you went to with Denise?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q Mr. way had said something about you being obsessed 314 1 with Denise williams. Is it also true that you keep
2 memorabilia, if you will?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q And are those tickets memorabilia?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q Mementos of things that you did with Denise?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q First one is 1999, what's the date of the second
9 one? That would be B, for the record.
10 A I laid them all out here.
11 Q They're in chronological order, I believe.
12 A But there's one that says July 2001.
13 Q what's the next one?
14 A December 2001.
15 Q The next one?
16 A well, there's two, April 2002.
17 Q And?
18 A September 2002.
19 Q And when is it that you and Denise went public with
20 your relations?
21 A went public with our relationship?
22 Q when y'all started being seen in public?
23 A It was after all of these.
24 Q So all of those are whenever the relationship is
25 still secret that you've kept as a mementos? 315 1 A Yes, sir.
2 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, the next subject that we're
3 going to go to,I believe we need to discuss a legal
4 issue beforehand.
5 THE COURT: All right. we're about ready for a
6 break. We'll let the jury step out. Take 15 minutes.
7 (Jury exits.)
8 THE COURT: Do we need the witness on the stand or
9 can --
10 MR. FUCHS: I don't believe so.
11 THE COURT: what's that?
12 MR. FUCHS: I don't believe so. No, Your Honor.
13 THE COURT: Everybody be seated, please.
14 MR. WAY: Your Honor, may we approach sidebar with
15 the reporter -- court reporter?
16 THE COURT: we don't have a jury in here.
17 MR. WAY: I understand, Your Honor, but I still --
18 MR. FUCHS: He's thinking about the cameras, I
19 believe.
20 MR. WAY: I would so respectfully request the
21 opportunity.
22 THE COURT: I'm not going to try to avoid the media.
23 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, the next exhibit that the
24 State intends to show, Mr. Way brought up an issue about
25 whether or not anybody had ever been a witness to any of 316 1 the relations between Mr. winchester and Ms. Williams
2 during the time frame in question.
3 Exhibit No. 18 is a series of photographs that were
4 taken --
5 THE COURT: Eighteen were the concert tickets.
6 MR. FUCHS: ITm sorry. 17.
7 Hold on. Let me make sure I got that right.
8 THE COURT: Seventeen. You've already marked it 17
9 in the back.
10 MR. FUCHS: Yeah, 17. It's a composite 17A through
11 M.
12 THE COURT: On the list you gave me you have 17 as
13 the fanny pack.
14 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir. I've eliminated that. I'm
15 sorry.
16 THE COURT: Okay.
17 MR. FUCHS: They are a series of photographs that
18 were taken prior to Mike's disappearance in Panama City.
19 The photographs were taken by Brian winchester. They
20 depict Kathy and Denise -- some of which are in
21 compromising situations. And I believe that goes to show
22 that there was, in fact, a witness. And, in fact, the
23 photographs themselves, once dated by Mr. winchester, are
24 a witness.
25 THE COURT: So what time frame is he going to 317 1 indicate these are from?
2 MR. FUCHS: Prior to Mr. williams' death. within
3 the year.
4 THE COURT: And so what do you think this shows?
5 MR. FUCHS: This shows that Ms. Thomas was, in fact,
6 a witness to the relations that were going on. It was
7 actually a three-way situation between all of them.
8 There were extramarital situations going on with
9 Mr. Winchester and Ms. Williams and Mrs. Winchester, at
10 the time, now Ms. Thomas. And the fact that they were,
11 in fact, going on a trip over there and there was someone
12 witnessing it. And the photographs themselves are a
13 witness and memorialize those relations.
14 THE COURT: okay. Defense?
15 MR. WAY: Your Honor --
16 THE COURT: You can have a seat, Mr. Fuchs.
17 MR. WAY: -- I would object on the basis of
18 foundation. The witness was asked -- he named names of
19 people who saw him. He did not name his wife, Kathy
20 Thomas. Additionally, Your Honor, the probative value of
21 those photographs is outweighed by the prejudice. The
22 question is asked are there other witnesses who would
23 know about the relationship. Mr. Winchester can testify
24 to that. Ms. Thomas, who is under subpoena by both the
25 State and the defense, can testify to that. 318 1 Introducing multiple photographs of two women in
2 what may be described as compromising conditions, Your
3 Honor, is highly prejudicial. It does not further the
4 testimony that Kathy Thomas may have been in a hotel in
5 Panama City with Denise Williams in 2000. They would
6 simply be offered to inflame the jury and to appeal to a
7 prurient interest.
8 THE COURT: May I see the exhibits, Mr. Fuchs?
9 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir.
10 THE COURT: I mean, I'm not seeing anything so
11 extreme about these, Mr. way. I was kind of expecting to
12 see something much worse when I look at these pictures.
13 I don't quite understand how you think this is so
14 extremely prejudicial.
15 MR. WAY: That may be a matter of taste and
16 interpretation, Your Honor. But if they're not -- if the
17 prejudice is not outweighed by the probative value, I
18 would respectfully argue that it's cumulative. I don't
19 think we need to introduce more than one photograph to
20 establish the fact sought to be proved.
21 THE COURT: All right. As to the foundation for
22 their admission, I've not heard that yet. So I'll make
23 no ruling on that. I assume Mr. Winchester can lay a
24 foundation.
25 As to the 403 objection, I overrule that objection. 319 1 There is nothing extremely lurid about the photographs.
2 And it was part of the cross-examination to suggest that
3 there was -- that Mr. winchester's story was untruthful
4 because other persons had not seen him together with
5 Ms. Williams over a period of time. That was a
6 suggestion of the cross-examination. Assuming that
7 Mr. Winchester puts this in a time frame related to that,
8 it seems to me to be relevant. So I'll overrule the
9 objection.
10 we'll take ten minutes.
11 MR. WAY: Your Honor --
12 THE COURT: I'm sorry?
13 MR. WAY: Are you also overruling the objection to
14 the cumulative nature, in terms of the number?
15 THE COURT: Yes.
16 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, may I approach for the
17 photographs?
18 THE COURT: Yes.
19 we'll be in recess for ten minutes.
20 (A recess was had.)
21 THE COURT: Are we ready for a jury?
22 MR. WAY: One moment, Your Honor.
23 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, I apologize to the Court.
24 There were additional photographs that for some reason
25 were moved out of that packet that were in question, that 320 1 Your Honor has not seen that, quite frankly, are a little
2 bit more illicit than the ones that you had seen.
3 So it actually has been expanded to A through T.
4 And I think that you're going to need to look at those
5 photographs, please. They're right there in front of
6 you.
7 THE COURT: okay. Everybody have a seat.
8 well, I understand the objection a little bit more
9 now. what had originally been shown to me was, frankly,
10 not very extreme.
11 MR. WAY: May I be heard, Your Honor?
12 THE COURT: Well, let me -- let me kind of sort out
13 here. Just a second.
14 okay. Mr. Way, you can be heard.
15 MR. WAY: Your Honor, and I apologize. I recognize
16 now how foolish my objection was in light of what you
17 were actually looking at. But as it relates to the newer
18 items that were provided, Your Honor, I would again renew
19 my objection under 90.403. I believe the evidence is
20 more prejudicial than probative.
21 And in light of the cumulative nature of the already
22 ruled upon photographs, Your Honor,I would say that
23 they're cumulative. And those particular photos would
24 also be irrelevant, in light of what you've already ruled
25 on. 321 1 So I would respectfully request that the added
2 photos be excluded.
3 THE COURT: Mr. Fuchs?
4 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, they are relevant.
5 Mr. Winchester has described not only that there was a
6 relationship with Denise Winchester prior to them
7 becoming public in 2003, that it was of a sexual nature.
8 There's questions on cross-examination about whether
9 there were additional witnesses to those. Those
10 photographs memorialize each and every single portion of
11 that. They are of sexual nature and they do show that
12 somebody else is present during them. And
13 Mr. winchester's testimony would predate -- would put it
14 in that time frame.
15 MR. WAY: Your Honor, Mr. Winchester is not in the
16 photographs.
17 THE COURT: Well, that's not entirely correct. He
18 appears to be in one of them. It takes a little bit of
19 probably testimony to confirm that. But 17-T would
20 appear to be a picture in the mirror, which I would
21 assume to be Mr. Winchester taking the pictures. But I
22 guess we'd have to hear him say that. But it's what it
23 would appear.
24 All right. I'm going to sustain the objection as to
25 some of the pictures. I do find that some of them are 322
1 cumulative and unnecessarily prejudicial . Although I
2 find in a large part they're relevant and admissible.
3 I'm going to sustain the objection as to 17-G, 17-3,
4 17-K, 17-L, 17-M, 17-P, 17-Q, 17-R, 17-S.
5 So I'd probably separate these, Madam Clerk, and
6 indicate that I have sustained objection for these. But
7 they need to be part of the record for appellate
8 purposes.
9 THE CLERK: Yes, sir.
10 THE COURT: I'll overrule the defense objection, as
11 I already have to 17-A, B,C,D, E, F, H. And although H
12 is somewhat cumulative, I've allowed that because it
13 shows a picture of a sign of a place, which I think might
14 be of significance. I,N, 0 and T, which would probably
15 be what I would view as the most controversial of these.
16 I've eliminated most of what would be showing what
17 would probably be construed as sexual activity between
18 the two females. And 17-N, I think to some extent that
19 is relevant. I've eliminated most of those pictures.
20 17-0 shows them kissing, which may make the point
21 without it being in such a sexual nature as the other
22 pictures.
23 And 17-T and,I guess, I find that one particularly
24 relevant because you can see in the mirror someone
25 sitting in the chair taking the picture, which I'm kind 323 1 of assuming the testimony -- but I'm assuming
2 Mr. Winchester would say that was him or someone related
3 to the case. So that will be my ruling.
4 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir. just to make sure we're clear
5 on how I'm going to refer to them. I'm going to refer to
6 them as State's Composite Exhibit 17. And I'm going to
7 leave the letter and numerations out.
8 So that way it's clear whenever which ones came in
9 and which ones aren't when referring to them in front of
10 the jury. But that way the Court's ruling, as far as the
11 numbering and letters, remains rather than renumbering
12 them. Is that okay with the Court?
13 THE COURT: I don't have a problem with that.
14 Mr. Way?
15 MR. WAY: Your Honor, may I be permitted limited
16 recross on the issues raised by the exhibit?
17 THE COURT: You may.
18 MR. WAY: Thank you, Your Honor.
19 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, we do have one other issue
20 that, quite frankly, needs to be discussed outside of the
21 presence of Mr. Winchester. It has to do with the next
22 witness. I don't know whether you want to -- so that we
23 can move smoothly into that next witness. I don't
24 know --
25 THE COURT: We'll go sidebar after we finish with 324 1 Mr. Winchester.
2 MR. FUCHS: Okay. That will work.
3 Did you remove the photographs?
4 THE COURT: I did. I removed the ones I sustained
5 the objection to.
6 MR. FUCHS: And, Your Honor, I'm going to request to
7 publish these outside of using the overhead because of
8 the sensitive nature. And just handing them to the
9 jurors.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 Let's have the jury, please.
12 (Jury enters the courtroom.)
13 THE COURT: All right. Everybody be seated, please.
14 Sorry we had a little delay. Every once in a while
15 i have to earn my money, so we have to discuss a few
16 things outside your presence.
17 You may proceed, Mr. Fuchs.
18 MR. FUCHS: Thank you, Your Honor.
19 BY MR. FUCHS:
20 Q Mr. Winchester --
21 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, may I approach?
22 THE COURT: You may.
23 MR. FUCHS: May I approach the witness? Thank you.
24 BY MR. FUCHS:
25 Q Showing you what's been previously marked for 325 1 identification purposes as State's Composite Exhibit 17.
2 without showing those to the jury, I ask you to take a look at
3 those items, please.
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q Do you recognize those photographs?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q what are those photographs of?
8 A They're photographs of Denise with my first wife,
9 Kathy, of a sexual nature.
10 Q And where were those photographs taken?
11 A Panama City.
12 Q when was that trip to Panama City?
13 A This particular trip -- I'm just looking to see if
14 this was one trip or two trips here.
15 Q okay. well, then let's talk about that real quick.
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q Were there multiple trips to Panama City with you,
18 Denise and your first wife, Kathy?
19 A we traveled together to multiple places, Orlando,
20 Colorado, Panama City. Those are the three that I remember
21 offhand.
22 I believe these are all the same trip.
23 Q And when was that?
24 A And I believe this was after Mike's death
25 occurred -- 326 1 Q when?
2 A -- these pictures.
3 Q when was that?
4 A Prior to Kathy and I getting divorced, so it would
5 have been between 2000 and 2001.
6 Q Okay. Prior to you and Denise coming out as having
7 relations? Or having -- having --
8 A A relationship?
9 Q yeah.
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q okay. You mentioned you and Kathy separated in
12 2001. So would this be prior to the separation?
13 A Actually, as I remember, this is -- one of these
14 pictures shows -- it's a spring break. It was a spring break.
15 So I'm guessing --
16 Q If I were to tell you that they occurred possibly in
17 April or the springtime of 2000, would that sound right?
18 A It was either 2000 or 2001. I can't remember when
19 Kathy and I separated exactly. But it was 2000 or 2001.
20 Q okay. Regardless, they were prior to you and Denise
21 making your relationship public, correct?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, at this time I'd move
24 State's Composite No. 17 into evidence.
25 THE COURT: Any additional objection? 327 1 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor. No additional objection.
2 THE COURT: All right. My ruling will be the same.
3 MR. FUCHS: So when --
4 THE COURT: They'll be admitted.
5 (State's Exhibit No. 17 received in evidence.)
6 MR. FUCHS: ITm sorry.
7 BY MR. FUCHS:
8 Q So whenever earlier you had been asked about
9 multiple people that had seen you prior. Your first wife was
10 a witness as well, was she not?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q Photograph No. 17-H depicts a sign that says, Show
13 and Tail. What is that?
14 A It was a strip club in Panama City.
15 Q Is that the one you previously mentioned that
16 someone had seen you coming out of?
17 A Yes, sir. But that was a different occasion.
18 Q okay. Same strip club?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, at this time, I'd request
21 permission to publish to the jury.
22 THE COURT: You may.
23 we're just going to pass these out. You'll have
24 them later to study more carefully. If you'd just look
25 at one, pass it to the next one. we don't have to sit 328 1 here while each of you look through each picture.
2 BY MR. FUCHS:
3 Q Now, Mr. Winchester you were also asked questions
4 about at some point you tried to get back with Kathy.
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q Did you have the -- did you discuss that with
7 Ms. Williams?
8 A Extensively. Yes, sir.
9 Q And did she appear to agree with that or at least
10 have an understanding about why you were doing that?
11 A Yes, sir. She did.
12 Q And did she not write you a letter expressing that?
13 A I think she did.
14 Q okay.
15 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, may I approach?
16 THE COURT: You may.
17 BY MR. FUCHS:
18 Q showing you what's been previously marked for
19 identification purposes as State's Composite Exhibit No. 19.
20 Do you recognize that?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q what does that appear to be?
23 A It's a letter from Denise.
24 Q Is that the one that -- where you -- she had written
25 you whenever you decided to try and get back with Kathy? 329 1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q Expressing her feelings?
3 A Right.
4 MR. FUCHS: Okay. Your Honor, at this time I'd move
5 State's Exhibit No. 19 into evidence, please.
6 THE COURT: Any objection?
7 MR. WAY: No objection, Your Honor.
8 THE COURT: Be admitted.
9 (State's Exhibit No. 19 received in evidence.)
10 BY MR. FUCHS:
11 Q Mr. Winchester, I'm not going to ask you to read the
12 whole thing because I believe it's 17 pages but I am going to
13 ask you to read the first page and a half, if you will. Just
14 to kind of get a gist of what this is.
15 So, if you could, let's just read down to about --
16 right about here. Okay?
17 A Okay.
18 Q Start with page one.
19 A Ready?
20 Q Yes, sir.
21 A My dear sweet, adorable, beautiful Brian. Yes, this
22 letter is going to be sappy. I'm sitting here on day two
23 still reeling from all of this. I feel every emotion a person
24 can feel all at one time, all the time. There are so many
25 things I wanted to say to you. So many things that I want you 330 1 to know.
2 First of all,I found a present for you for
3 Christmas that I had already bought, so I wanted you to have
4 it. Season two is not out yet.
5 Also, I remember that real frosting was something
6 you really wanted, so I made it for you. I hope you like it.
7 i would have made sugar cookies but did not have them. Keep
8 it in the refrigerator and if it gets a little hard, put a
9 little milk in it. I think I remembered you had some dough in
10 your refrigerator.
11 There are no words that can describe to you how sad
12 I will be on Christmas and New Year's Eve. I will know for
13 sure that what we are doing is right. But I will still miss
14 you and be so sad. Also, on the anniversary, 16th and 17th,
15 will you please pray extra hard for me --
16 I'm sorry. Did I go further?
17 Q That's fine.
18 A -- on those days and please have your parents call
19 me. Most everyone will not even mention it to me and so I
20 know I will need someone to talk to. Thank you.
21 Q The last page of that letter, signed by somebody?
22 A Denise.
23 Q what does it say?
24 A I love you more than ever. Denise.
25 Q And, again, that is in response to you trying to get 331 1 back with Kathy?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q There's a date up on the top right-hand corner of
4 the first page. It appears to be kind of torn off, but when
5 was this letter written?
6 A I noticed that when you handed it to me. And it
7 just says wednesday 12/10 -- and I can't make out the last
8 number.
9 Q But that would have been the time frame that you and
10 Denise were trying to get back -- or you were trying to get
11 back with Denise?
12 A with Kathy?
13 Q I mean with Kathy.
14 A Yes, sir.
15 MR. FUCHS: No further questions, Your Honor.
16 THE COURT: All right. I said I'd give you limited
17 cross, Mr. Way.
18 MR. WAY: I'll stay within the areas of just what's
19 been recently introduced, Your Honor.
20 RECROSS - EXAMINATION
21 BY MR. WAY:
22 Q Mr. Winchester, the photographs that you were just
23 shown that have been shown to jury, those photographs appear
24 to show Ms. Williams and your wife, Kathy Winchester. Those
25 are the two woman that are holding hands or hugging each other 332 1 or kissing each other?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q Those pictures don't show Ms. williams kissing or
4 hugging you, do they?
5 A Those pictures?
6 Q Those pictures.
7 A I think there was just one where our faces were
8 together, but we weren't being intimate in those pictures.
9 Because I was primarily the person that took the pictures.
10 Q And those pictures don't show you and Kathy being
11 intimate or close?
12 A No.
13 Q And those pictures could have been from spring break
14 of 2001?
15 A It was either 2000 or 2001.
16 Q In the letter that you just read, that could have
17 been -- my understanding of your attempt to reconnect in your
18 marriage with Ms. Thomas, that would have been in 2004,
19 correct?
20 A I'm not sure of the date. I'm sorry. Our divorce
21 was finalized in 2004, I believe. So I think it would have
22 been earlier than that.
23 Q okay.
24 MR. WAY: I have nothing further, Your Honor.
25 THE COURT: Further, Mr. Fuchs? 333 1 MR. FUCHS: No, Your Honor.
2 THE COURT: I did have one thing I thought should be
3 clarified. I'm going to show you 17-T. It appears to be
4 a reflection in the mirror. Shows someone in the mirror
5 taking the picture. Is that you?
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
7 THE COURT: All right. Any jurors have questions of
8 this witness? All right, write your questions down.
9 we'll go sidebar.
10 (Sidebar had as follows):
11 THE COURT: One juror has three questions. what was
12 the plan when the insurance was to be paid out? Either
13 side have objection?
14 MR. FUCHS: No, Your Honor.
15 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
16 THE COURT: And I understand the question is a
17 little bit ambiguous, but that's just the way it reads.
18 second question may clarify it a little bit. were
19 you to gain access to a portion of funds individually?
20 Either side object?
21 MR. FUCHS: No, Your Honor.
22 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: Was the insurance money set up for the
24 plot or -- Literally says, was the insurance set up for
25 the plot or bonus to the relationship without Mike 334 1 Williams? Either side object?
2 MR. FUCHS: No, Your Honor.
3 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
4 THE COURT: Two questions from this juror. It says:
5 Is Brian diagnosed with any psychological or mental
6 disorders?
7 MR. FUCHS: I don't -- I mean, I'll object to that
8 because nobody's made any findings of such, a doctor, as
9 far as we know.
10 THE COURT: I mean, we would just have to ask him
11 has he been -- it's really a question to us, but
12 certainly is not appropriate. But we can ask him whether
13 he's been diagnosed with any psychological or medical
14 disorders.
15 MR. WAY: I'm all for it.
16 THE COURT: What?
17 MR. WAY: I'm all for it.
18 THE COURT: I think what we're going to get into is
19 sex addiction. What's the State's position?
20 MR. FUCHS: State's position is that's not relevant
21 towards the issue at hand, whether or not she is culpable
22 of the homicide. what his mental illness or condition
23 are not relevant for the issue at hand for the jury.
24 THE COURT: You want to be heard first, Mr. Way?
25 MR. WAY: Only, Your Honor, that the theme of the 335 1 case is sex, lies and murder. So,I mean, it's sex and
2 it's mental health. I say -- I think we should ask it.
3 THE COURT: yeah. I don't know where that's going
4 to end up, but I think we'll not go there.
5 The second question: Is he currently or has he ever
6 taken any medications regarding question one? I mean, I
7 guess it would be a fair question, whether he was on any
8 type of psychological medication during the time frame.
9 MR. FUCHS: I don't disagree with that.
10 THE COURT: what?
11 MR. FUCHS: I don't disagree with that.
12 MR. WAY: So you're not going to ask it as it
13 relates back to that one?
14 THE COURT: I mean, if I was going to ask it -- the
15 relevant question would be whether he was on any type of
16 medication --
17 MR. FUCHS: Medication for mental illness.
18 THE COURT: -- medication for mental illness during
19 any of the time in question.
20 MR. WAY: I don't object to it.
21 THE COURT: So let me write it out so I'm not doing
22 it off the top. Was he on medication for mental illness
23 during any of the times for which you have testified?
24 You all in agreement?
25 MR. WAY: Yes, Your Honor. 336 1 MR. FUCHS: Then the follow-up of when that would
2 be, if he answered in the affirmative.
3 THE COURT: I'll let you do that if he says that.
4 The next question is: How many threesomes took place?
5 The date of the first threesome and the last threesome.
6 Did he ever participate in group sex? Either side
7 object?
8 MR. FUCHS: No, sir.
9 MR. WAY: I mean, I'll object on relevance grounds.
10 MR. FUCHS: I don't have a problem with that. Just
11 ask if he participated in the threesome in the pictures
12 taken, the photographs. That way we make it relevant to
13 the testimony that's already come out.
14 THE COURT: Say that again.
15 MR. FUCHS: I don't have a problem with his
16 objection to question No. 3. I would rephrase that to,
17 did Mike ever participate in the threesome when the
18 photographs occurred?
19 MR. WAY: May I be heard?
20 THE COURT: Yeah.
21 MR. WAY: The relevance is very minimal because the
22 witness can't identify whether that would -- how is it
23 relevant to the three counts that she's charged with? If
24 he testified it could have been spring break of 2001,
25 that's outside your window for accessory after the fact. 337 1 Outside the window for principal. It's outside the
2 window for conspiracy.
3 So she may have had sexual relations with Kathy
4 Aldridge in 2001. I'm not sure what the relevance of
5 that is as it related to him, if he took the picture.
6 He's not in the picture.
7 MR. FUCHS: ITm impartial.
8 THE COURT: I think we need to clear the dates up.
9 He's not very clear on when these things happened.
10 That's not going to get clearer by asking any further.
11 Okay.
12 (Sidebar concluded.)
13 THE COURT: Mr. winchester, were you on medication
14 for any type of mental disorder during any of the times
15 for which you have testified?
16 THE WITNESS: No, sir.
17 THE COURT: As to the insurance proceeds, was there
18 a plan as to when the insurance proceeds would be paid
19 out between you and Ms. Williams?
20 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure by the question if
21 they're asking initially when it would be paid out, or
22 when, possibly, I was expecting to receive any benefit.
23 But the --
24 THE COURT: Let's go to that question. Because
25 there are a couple of followup questions that maybe 338 1 clarify what's being asked and may clarify that. And I
2 think the juror is positing before the murder occurred,
3 your plan and discussions. And was there a plan for you
4 to gain access to or a portion of the insurance funds
5 individually?
6 THE WITNESS: No, sir. All of the -- Denise was the
7 beneficiary -- the only beneficiary in all the policies,
8 as well as all their personal assets as well as his
9 social security. I mean, in total it was about
10 2.25 million dollars that she stood to receive in total.
11 i was not the beneficiary on any of it. But, of
12 course, we knew -- I knew, we knew, that eventually, when
13 we ended up together, that I would secondhand benefit, I
14 guess you could say. But I didn't have any direct
15 benefit or legal entitlement to any of the money. And
16 even when we got married Denise kept the vast majority of
17 her assets in her name.
18 THE COURT: And there had been no discussion to the
19 contrary? In other words, y'all hadn't -- I know what
20 the legal papers say, but in terms of y'all discussing a
21 plan other than that, there was no discussion of that?
22 THE WITNESS: Correct.
23 THE COURT: Was the insurance money an incentive for
24 the plot or simply a bonus to the relationship without
25 Mr. Williams? 339 1 THE WITNESS: I think I would characterize it as a
2 bonus. we wanted to be together, you know, either way.
3 And the thing that we always joked about was, you know,
4 we were together with each other because we wanted to be
5 but the money was just the icing on the cake.
6 THE COURT: Followup, Mr. Fuchs?
7 FURTHER EXAMINATION
8 BY MR. FUCHS:
9 Q Mr. Winchester, you say that money was bonus, icing
10 on the cake to you, correct?
11 A To both of us.
12 Q As your understanding is, it was icing on the cake,
13 a bonus, correct?
14 A I'm sorry. I don't understand the question.
15 Q The question was asked whether or not the money was
16 a bonus to y'all being together?
17 A Right.
18 Q That's from your perspective, correct?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q Okay. Not from Denise's perspective?
21 A Right.
22 Q For all you know, that was the primary goal and she
23 utilized you to get the money?
24 A Could have been. I don't feel that was the
25 motivation. But, could have been, yes, sir. 1 Q And, in fact, after his killing, she limited her
2 contact with you and actually was dating other men, was she
3 not?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 MR. FUCHS: No further questions.
6 THE COURT: Followup?
7 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor. No questions.
8 THE COURT: All right. You can step down.
9 All right. We'll go sidebar.
10 (Sidebar had as follows):
11 THE COURT: So y'all wanted to be heard sidebar
12 before the next witness?
13 MR. FUCHS: Yes, Your Honor. At this point the
14 State is intending to call Dr. Mnookin. Dr. Mnookin is
15 an individual who, prior to Brian Winchester being
16 arrested, they met for lunch. At which time Brian
17 Winchester told him that he was concerned -- it was after
18 the incident but before the arrest -- Brian Winchester
19 told him that he was concerned that Denise would go to
20 law enforcement and tell them about a murder that
21 occurred many years before that they were involved in.
22 And I'm, obviously, paraphrasing to a degree.
23 The argument is that Mr. Way, during his
24 cross-examination, made the allegation that this was
25 fabricated for purposes of revenge for him being arrested 341 1 and things of that nature. Dr. Mnookin's testimony would
2 be a statement that was made prior to the arrest and,
3 therefore, would be a prior consistent statement,
4 according to Florida Rules of Procedure.
5 THE COURT: Mr. way?
6 MR. WAY: Your Honor, it's hearsay without
7 exception. And certainly a statement trying to bring in
8 and offer for the truth of the matter asserted to a
9 material fact in this case. I did not hear any testimony
10 from the witness that he had told anyone -- in fact, I
11 think when he was asked did he ever tell anybody about
12 this murder, and he said he didn't. I think the question
13 fell within -- both yesterday and today about confessing.
14 That the witness was really clear in his testimony he
15 didn't tell anyone.
16 So, one, it's hearsay. Two, I don't think there's
17 proper foundation for this witness to testify as to
18 something another witness says he told him.
19 THE COURT: I think I heard this doctor's testimony
20 in hearings in the Winchester Case. This was a
21 conversation between Mr. Winchester and the doctor,
22 correct?
23 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir.
24 THE COURT: I previously made a ruling it was not as
25 part of a professional relationship? 342 1 MR. FUCHS: Correct.
2 THE COURT: So you made argument that Mr. winchester
3 made these statements for purposes of cutting a deal
4 How is this not a prior consistent statement to rebut
5 that claim of recent fabrication, Mr. way?
6 MR. WAY: well, Your Honor, we don't know exactly
7 what statement it's supporting. Hers saying that he
8 wanted to talk to someone about a murder that happened.
9 I don't know what he's going to say about Denise
10 Williams.
11 He testified in this case,I believe -- I mean, I
12 don't know much about the kidnapping because I wasn't
13 involved in that. But I don't know how it gets from
14 Winchester to Mnookin to relevant to my client.
15 THE COURT: Well, the relevance is it's showing that
16 Mr. Winchester has previously indicated that he has
17 concerns Ms. Williams could implicate him in a murder.
18 That certainly could be relevant to what the jury's
19 consideration is to rebut a claim that Mr. Winchester
20 made all this up after he was arrested.
21 MR. WAY: In your ruling did you find there was no
22 attorney -- or no patient privilege?
23 THE COURT: Right.
24 MR. WAY: was it ever asked why Mr. Mnookin never
25 went to law enforcement with the statement about the 343 1 murder? Or did he?
2 MR. FUCHS: I'm sorry?
3 MR. WAY: Did Dr. Mnookin go forward and tell law
4 enforcement about the murder?
5 MR. FUCHS: Yes. And you have a copy of that report
6 in your discovery.
7 MR. WAY: okay.
8 THE COURT: Right. The issue is whether it was
9 privileged, is what I was hearing. I found it was not
10 privileged. But he did pass on the information. I don't
11 remember exactly how it was passed on, but it was part of
12 the evidence against Mr. Winchester in the kidnapping
13 case. Anyway --
14 MR. WAY: Yes, sir.
15 THE COURT: So Vm going to overrule the objection.
16 MR. WAY: Yes, sir.
17 (Sidebar concluded.)
18 THE COURT: Call your next witness, please.
19 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, State would call
20 Dr. Mnookin.
21 THE COURT: Come on up here, please, sir. If you'd
22 face the clerk and be sworn.
23 Whereupon,
24 DR. STEPHEN MNOOKIN,
25 was called as a witness, having been first duly sworn, was 344 1 examined and testified as follows:
2 THE COURT: Have a seat. Slide up to the
3 microphone, please, sir.
4 You may proceed.
5 DIRECT EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. ROGERS:
7 Q Doctor, can you please introduce yourself to the
8 jury?
9 A Stephen Charles Mnookin.
10 THE COURT: You don't need to get right on that
11 microphone.
12 THE WITNESS: I saw that.
13 THE COURT: In fact, you may want to push it back
14 just a hair.
15 THE WITNESS: I am loud.
16 BY MR. ROGERS:
17 Q Can you spell your last name for us?
18 A It's M as in Mary, N as in Nancy, 0 -0 -K -I -N.
19 Q And do you know Brian Winchester?
20 A Yes, I do.
21 Q How many years have you known Brian Winchester?
22 A I've known him since about 2004. So, 14 years.
23 Q were you friends or acquaintances? How would you
24 describe --
25 A we were friends. 345 1 Q Did Brian winchester approach you in August of 2016?
2 A Yes.
3 Q what did he approach you about?
4 A He called me on the morning of August -- it was a
5 Friday. I think it was the 5th. And said that he hit a new
6 low and wanted to talk to me over lunch.
7 Q Did you meet with him for lunch?
8 A Yes, I did.
9 Q And did he describe a -- what was later charged as a
10 kidnapping of Denise Williams?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And he described that in detail?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And you eventually came forward to law enforcement
15 with that, correct?
16 A Yes. Correct.
17 Q Did he indicate to you at lunch what was the
18 catalyst for him performing that criminal act, that
19 kidnapping?
20 A He said that on the night -- on Thursday night, the
21 night before, the police came to his house and said that they
22 had been talking to Denise. And once Denise gets divorced,
23 she is going to talk to the police about what really happened
24 to Mike Williams.
25 Q Okay. And what did that mean to Brian Winchester? 346 1 what did he --
2 A well, he -- it made him very nervous. And he really
3 wanted to talk to her about it. And he kept calling her but
4 she wouldn't answer. So he decided the best way to talk to
5 her would be to kidnap her.
6 Q When you met at lunch that day, this was before he
7 was arrested?
8 A Correct.
9 Q And have you seen him outside the courtroom since he
10 was arrested?
11 A No.
12 Q So at that lunch Brian Winchester indicated to you
13 that Denise Williams was aware of something going on with the
14 disappearance of Mike Williams?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And that that prompted him to kidnap her?
17 A Yes.
18 Q So they could discuss it further?
19 A Yes.
20 MR. ROGERS: I'll pass the witness.
21 THE COURT: Cross?
22 CROSS- EXAMINATION
23 BY MR. WAY:
24 Q Dr. Mnookin, what police officers came to talk to
25 Mr. Winchester? 347 1 A I don't know.
2 Q Do you know if, in fact, that actually happened,
3 that police came and talked to him?
4 A No,I don't.
5 Q And you testified that Mr. winchester's revelation
6 to you was, the best way to talk to Denise would be to kidnap
7 her?
8 A That's what he said, yes.
9 Q Did he tell you he kidnapped her at gunpoint?
10 A Yep.
11 MR. WAY: Nothing further.
12 THE COURT: Redirect?
13 MR. ROGERS: Nothing, Judge.
14 THE COURT: All right. Any juror have a question of
15 this witness?
16 (No audible response.)
17 THE COURT: All right. If not, you may step down.
18 Do we need to keep him further?
19 MR. FUCHS: Not from the State.
20 THE COURT: Need him for any reason, Mr. Way?
21 MR. WAY: Your Honor, Mr. Fuchs and I have a
22 stipulation as to -- we don't need him. I'm sorry.
23 THE COURT: Let's talk about this witness.
24 You're excused.
25 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 1 THE COURT: Thank you for being here.
2 MR. WAY: Jumping ahead, Judge.
3 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Way.
4 MR. WAY: Your Honor, the State and the defense have
5 reached a stipulation to the introduction of what has
6 been marked as Defendant's Exhibit 1. it is a proffer
7 agreement. May I approach, Your Honor?
8 THE COURT: You may.
9 MR. WAY: It was to be introduced through
10 Mr. Jansen, who is on both witness lists. And we have
11 agreed we will introduce that exhibit and we can excuse
12 Mr. Jansen.
13 THE COURT: Because I've told you a number of times
14 what the attorneys say is not evidence, of course, in
15 all legal things we have to have exceptions. There are
16 exceptions when the attorneys agree that facts are a
17 certain way. We encourage attorneys to get together and
18 stipulate to things. That saves your time and my time in
19 knowing it's uncontested.
20 So when the parties agree that certain facts are
21 true, that is called a stipulation of fact. You must
22 accept stipulated facts as having been proven. However,
23 the significance of these facts, as with all facts, is
24 for you to decide.
25 In the case the stipulated facts between the parties 349 1 is that Defense Exhibit 1 is the agreement between the
2 State of Florida and Mr. winchester. Is that the
3 stipulation of the parties?
4 MR. FUCHS: That is correct, Your Honor.
5 MR. WAY: That is correct, Your Honor.
6 THE COURT: All right. It will be accepted and
7 admitted as Defense Exhibit 1.
8 (Defense Exhibit No.1 received in evidence.)
9 THE COURT: All right. Your next witness,
10 Mr. Fuchs.
11 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, at this time the State would
12 call Howard Drew.
13 THE COURT: All right. If you'd face the clerk and
14 be sworn, please, sir.
15 whereupon,
16 HOWARD DREW,
17 was called as a witness, having been first duly sworn, was
18 examined and testified as follows:
19 THE COURT: Have a seat. Slide up to the
20 microphone, please, sir.
21 DIRECT EXAMINATION
22 BY MR. FUCHS:
23 Q Good morning, sir.
24 A Good morning.
25 Q Can you please introduce yourself to the jurors? 350 1 A My name's Howard Drew.
2 Q And, Mr. Drew, do you live in the Tallahassee Area?
3 A Yes, I do.
4 Q And how long have you lived here?
5 A Oh, for the last 30 years.
6 Q Over that time period, did you know someone by the
7 name of Mike Williams?
8 A i did.
9 Q How did you initially meet Mike Williams?
10 A His mother requested that I talk to him about -- he
11 was very interested in hunting. So that's -- we met before
12 then but -- because she was my daughter's babysitter. So I'd
13 see Mike off and on for quite a while.
14 Q okay. When you say hunting, what kind of hunting
15 were you initially talking to him about?
16 A well, I tried to talk him into deer hunting. But I
17 made the mistake of carrying him duck hunting and he just went
18 crazy. I told him duck hunters wasn't very sane because they
19 always went out in freezing cold weather, you know, and sit in
20 a boat. At least deer hunting you could sit in a stand.
21 Q okay. Whenever he went crazy over the duck hunting,
22 did that cause you any concerns, I guess -- let me back up.
23 When you say you're teaching him about hunting and
24 things along those lines, are you also teaching him safety
25 procedures and things along those lines? 351 1 A Yes, sir. I told Mike before I carried him hunting
2 he had to complete the Hunter's Safety Course. And me and his
3 dad -- his dad -- I can't believe Mike really was interested
4 in hunting because no one in his family, that I know of,
5 hunts.
6 But, anyway, his dad rode down each evening. I
7 think we went two nights a week. And then had the Saturday
8 training session down at the shooting range and he completed
9 the course. So I was pretty well locked in then, you know?
10 Q Yes, sir. Did you also teach him -- initially were
11 you -- was he more -- or were you trying to teach him duck
12 hunting or deer hunting?
13 A I was trying to teach him duck hunting. I mean,
14 deer hunting. But he was more into duck hunting. So we went
15 to Lake lamonia one morning. And it was plenty of ducks,
16 which is -- i was hoping for just a cold, freezing morning and
17 no ducks and that might discourage him. But it just turned
18 out the other way, you know.
19 But I was somewhat concerned with the duck hunting
20 because you're out on the water. I know deer hunting you can
21 fall out of a tree stand. But I just was a little negative on
22 the duck hunting. But he continued on.
23 Q okay. Now, as I understand it, duck hunters
24 occasionally wear waders in order to do so.
25 A That's true. 352 1 Q And at some point did Mike inform you that he had
2 been -- he was going to purchase a pair of waders and he was
3 going to start doing duck hunting in waders?
4 A He called me one afternoon and told me to come over
5 and look at his new waders he had. And I said, oh, Mike, I'll
6 be over in a few minutes. Because, to me, that was very
7 serious. You know, many a good man and woman went to the
8 bottom in a pair of waders.
9 Q why is that?
10 A well, they fill up -- if you fall in the water, the
11 old ones didn't have -- they're not the Neoprene
12 tight -fighting jobs. You know, the old ones were kind of
13 baggie. And once you went over and the water started getting
14 in and most people panic and beat around. And pretty soon
15 you're full of water and you go to the bottom and that's it.
16 Q And you had been asked by Ms. Cheryl how to teach
17 him how to do this hunt safely, correct?
18 A oh, yes. See, Cheryl was a big pressure. I would
19 have rather carried my own child out than her son.
20 But, anyway, when Mike told me he had a pair of
21 waders, I rushed right on over. So when I got there I said,
22 Mike, I said, listen, the waders are great. I said, I can see
23 you right now, you can push your boat out and wade out and
24 ease into it and not have to try to push off the shore and
25 that kind of stuff. 353 1 But I said, You must remember with waders there's a
2 couple of things you've got to remember. I said, One, it is
3 if your boat turns over or you stand up to shoot at a duck and
4 the recoil from the shotgun knocks you backwards, you cannot
5 panic. I said, Don't worry about your shotgun. You can go
6 back and look for it later. I said, Worry about staying calm,
7 getting a breath of air before you go down.
8 And I said, On the way down or whatever, I said,
9 you'll feel the cold water during the wintertime. But I said,
10 Just be as calm as you can, unclip your waders, the straps,
11 and get them off. And I said, Normally you're not in too deep
12 a water for when you're duck hunting. I said, You can always
13 kick off the bottom, get you another breath of air. And I
14 said, Go down and then start working them off. I said, You
15 can even be like a porpoise, kind of like flipping with your
16 feet and swimming as hard as you can. I said, Because the
17 important thing is to get a breath of air, stay calm and work
18 those things off.
19 So he said, well, can we try it? And I said sure.
20 I said, I'll do you one better than my daddy did me. I said,
21 I won't carry you down to the pond. we didn't have a swimming
22 pool. I said, But you got a swimming pool, man. I said, Go
23 in and put a pair of slacks on just like you would go hunt in,
24 except maybe the coat. I said, You don't have to put a coat
25 on. Because, as best I remember, it was still in the warmer 354 1 part of the year, July, August, somewhere along in there.
2 And we just had -- I started him out in the shallow
3 end of the pool because I really didn't want to have to jump
4 in and try to pull him out. But we worked on it and he was a
5 good student. In fact,I made him, at the end of it, go up on
6 the diving board and dive off. And he did everything fine.
7 was surprised.
8 He was always an easy learner in anything I worked
9 with him. So we did it two or three times and --
10 Q So, as I understand it, you taught him about -- this
11 stuff that's going on in the pool, he's wearing waders at this
12 time?
13 A oh, yes. Yes, sir. And we probably worked two or
14 three hours there that afternoon. And I went over one other
15 time and I told him to practice in the shallow end. I said,
16 don't have your mother call me and tell me you drowned in the
17 deep part of the thing because you hit your head on the diving
18 board or something on the way down. But I said, you know,
19 Feel comfortable because practice makes perfect.
20 Q So, to your knowledge, Mike Williams regularly
21 practiced to get out of those waders?
22 A I know he did. Because the one thing Mike was, he
23 was honest. I told him that would soon disappear because
24 hunters and fishermen always had to lie a little bit about how
25 long the fish was, how big the deer was or how many ducks they 355 1 killed. But he told me -- I called him a couple of times, I
2 said, Bud, you still practicing? He said, I feel very
3 comfortable with it, Mr. Howard. I said okay.
4 Q you mentioned earlier about -- a little bit about
5 the steps to take off, popping the straps off.
6 A Right.
7 Q The first step would be to take the straps off?
8 A Right.
9 Q Then what happened?
10 A And then work the bib part of it off. And then
11 you're down to your waist, you know. And I always told Mike
12 to, you know, try to work one leg out if it was possible and
13 then the other leg. But you get one leg out, you can do a lot
14 of swimming surprisingly. I said, You'll do a lot more than
15 you think you can do when your life's on the line.
16 Q I have no further questions. Thank you.
17 THE COURT: Cross?
18 MR. WAY: No questions, Your Honor.
19 THE COURT: All right. Any juror have a question of
20 this witness?
21 (No audible response.)
22 THE COURT: All right. You can step down.
23 Do we need to keep him any further?
24 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
25 MR. FUCHS: No, Your Honor. 356 1 THE COURT: You're excused. Thanks for being here.
2 You're free to go.
3 Call your next witness.
4 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, at this time the State would
5 call Lindsay Lockhart.
6 THE COURT: Come on up here, please, ma'am. If
7 you'd face the clerk and be sworn, please.
8 THE CLERK: Raise your right hand.
9 whereupon,
10 LINDSAY LOCKHART,
11 was called as a witness, having been first duly sworn, was
12 examined and testified as follows:
13 THE COURT: Have a seat. Slide up to the
14 microphone, please, ma'am.
15 DIRECT EXAMINATION
16 BY MR. FUCHS:
17 Q Good morning, ma'am.
18 A Good morning.
19 Q Can you please introduce yourself to the jurors.
20 A I'm Lindsay Lockhart.
21 Q And Ms. Lockhart, I understand that you're -- if you
22 could please spell your first and last name for Madam
23 Reporter?
24 A Okay. It's L -I -N -D -S -A -Y, L -O -C -K -H -A -R -T.
25 Q Okay. And my understanding is your maiden name is 357 1 Ketch urn?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And you're related to Clay Ketchurn and Patti
4 Ketch urn?
5 A larn.
6 Q And Brett Ketchum.
7 A I'm Clay and Patti's daughter and Brett's sister.
8 Q Okay. How long -- do you live in Tallahassee now?
9 A Idonot.
10 Q Have you ever lived in Tallahassee?
11 A i did.
12 Q when did you live in Tallahassee?
13 A I lived here rny whole life. From the tirne I was
14 born until 2011.
15 Q And during that time period did you have an
16 opportunity to know someone by the name of Mike Williams?
17 A Absolutely.
18 Q How did you know Mike williams?
19 A Mike started working for my dad when I was in -- I
20 think I was in the sixth grade.
21 Q Okay. And did you go up to your dad's business and
22 that's how you knew him? Or how did you actually know hirn?
23 A Yeah. I -- my dad's business is a small
24 family -owned business. So I was up there quite a bit
25 answering phones and filing. And then I actually started 358 1 working for him on and off just throughout my whole childhood
2 and adolescence up. And even into college I worked there on
3 and off. So I got to know Mike really well.
4 Q All in all , how long did you know Mike?
5 A I knew him from the sixth grade until the day I
6 graduated from FSU.
7 Q Because you knew Mike, did you know Denise?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Okay. How did you know Denise?
10 A Because she was married to Mike. And, like I said,
11 it was a small family business so we did things together.
12 Q was there a lot of interaction between, I guess, the
13 family business, yourself, Mr. and Mrs. Williams?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Did you also know Brian Winchester?
16 A I did.
17 Q How did you know Brian Winchester?
18 A Because he was best friends with Mike.
19 Q Did y'all ever go out together on occasions and
20 things like that?
21 A We did. when i was in college and a little older we
22 went out a few times.
23 Q When you say going out, what are you talking about?
24 A We went to happy hour a few times and we went to a
25 concert together. 359 1 Q That concert you're talking about, what concert was
2 that?
3 A It was Sister Hazel at Floyd's.
4 Q And what is Floyd's?
5 A It was a bar on Tennessee Street.
6 Q Okay. was that over by the Florida State University
7 campus?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And what is Sister Hazel?
10 A A band from Gainesville.
11 Q okay. So you went and saw the band, Sister Hazel,
12 at Floyd's, which is -- I guess it's part of the Tennessee
13 Strip; is that right?
14 A Correct.
15 Q Okay. And when was that concert?
16 A I believe it was in the fall of 1997.
17 Q Who all went to that concert? was it a group of
18 y'all that went or just you?
19 A It was a group up of us. It was myself, Angela
20 Stafford, Denise, Brian and Mike.
21 Q what about Kathy, Brian's wife?
22 A She wasn't there.
23 Q when y'all went out to this concert, were y'all
24 having a good time?
25 A Yeah, I would say so. 1 Q Did -- was there anything that stood out to you as
2 being odd at that concert?
3 A Yes.
4 Q what is that?
5 A I remember at one point myself, Mike and Angela were
6 at the bar and I looked over and saw Brian and Denise
7 together. And Brian was standing behind Denise with his arms
8 around her waist. And it struck me as very odd because Mike
9 was married to Denise.
10 Q Did Mike see that?
11 A I don't know how he would not have seen it.
12 Q And what was your reaction?
13 A Discomfort.
14 Q what happened next?
15 A I don't remember specifics about anything happening.
16 I do know the next day I told -- my parents asked me how the
17 concert was. And I said, the concert was fine, but if I
18 didn't know any better I would have thought Brian was married
19 to Denise and not Mike.
20 Q Mike was there with you, obviously?
21 A uh-huh.
22 Q was Mike a drinker on normal night?
23 A Not typically. But he was that night.
24 Q That night he drank more than normal?
25 A More than I had seen him drink in the past. And he 361 1 was concerned that I would tell my dad that he was drinking
2 that much.
3 Q The interaction you said thatyou saw Brian standing
4 behind Denisewith hisarms around her --
5 A uh-huh.
6 Q -- did that-- obviously, you-- I assume you've
7 been inrelations withpeople before?
8 A uh-huh.
9 Q You've had friendsthat are inrelation --
10 THE COURT: It would help thislady if you would say
11 yesor no ratherthan uh-huh or ugh-ugh.
12 THE WITNESS: oh, I'm sorry. okay.
13 THE COURT: She's trying to takedown what you say.
14 BY MR. FUCHS:
15 Q You've had friends that are in relations with
16 people?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Dating type of relations?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And you've had friends that are in friendly type of
21 rel ati ons?
22 A Yes.
23 Q You've seen them interact over those time periods?
24 A Yes.
25 Q The way in which Ms. Denise Williams and Mike -- 362 1 Brian winchester were on that evening when you saw them in
2 that situation, how would you categorize that?
3 A It was -- it seemed like a new love. Like a
4 boyfriend -girlfriend type position they were in.
5 Q A familiarity, if you will?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Familiar with each other?
8 A Very.
9 Q More than friends?
10 A very much so.
11 Q Do you see Ms. Denise Williams here in the courtroom
12 today?
13 A Ido.
14 Q Could you please point to her and indicate an
15 article of clothing she's wearing?
16 A A gray sweater.
17 Q And that is the person you saw in that situation
18 with Brian Winchester, correct?
19 A Itis.
20 MR. FUCHS: No further questions.
21 THE COURT: Cross.
22 CROSS- EXAMINATION
23 BY MR. WAY:
24 Q Ms. Lockhart, this concert was 21 years ago?
25 A Yes. 363 1 Q And you remember you were standing at the bar in a
2 Floyd's music store with Mike williams and Angela Stafford?
3 A Correct.
4 Q And you looked out across the dance floor and you
5 saw Brian Winchester standing suggestively behind Denise
6 Williams?
7 A I wouldn't say it was across the dance floor.
8 Q How far away was it?
9 A Ten feet.
10 Q okay. How long did it take for Mike to get over
11 there and punch Brian in the face?
12 A It didn't happen.
13 Q All right, well, how long did it take for Mike to
14 get over there and confront Brian about dancing with his wife
15 or hugging on his wife?
16 A It didn't happen.
17 Q What do you mean it didn't happen? Mike never --
18 didn't do anything?
19 A No, sir.
20 Q well, did Mike say anything after he left the bar
21 and left you guys behind?
22 A Not to me.
23 Q How did you leave Floyd's music store?
24 A I don't recall.
25 Q How did you get there? 364 1 A I don't recall.
2 Q Because you don't know if you were in a car together
3 with these individuals and then left together?
4 A I believe Angela and I rode together.
5 Q The next day when you went into work, Mike was
6 there?
7 A I believe the next day was a Sunday.
8 Q Do you know when you went in on Monday was Mike
9 there?
10 A I'm not even sure if I was still working at Ketchum
11 at the time.
12 Q when -- after you saw this event that is clear in
13 your mind today, when was the next time you talked with Mike
14 williams about it?
15 A I never talked with him about it.
16 Q Okay.
17 MR. WAY: Nothing else, Your Honor.
18 THE COURT: Redirect?
19 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
20 BY MR. FUCHS:
21 Q Ms. Lockhart, was Mike a person -- a private person?
22 A Absolutely. very.
23 Q Not one that would normally talk about personal
24 matters with you?
25 A Correct. 365 1 Q So it's not odd that you didn't -- that he didn't
2 discuss this with you, correct?
3 A No.
4 Q walk over and punch Brian in the face, is that
5 typical of what Mike would do?
6 A Not at all.
7 Q you mentioned the drinking. He's not a heavy
8 drinker, but on that evening he drank a lot more than normal,
9 correct?
10 A Correct.
11 Q Because of what he saw?
12 A I assume.
13 Q No further questions.
14 THE COURT: Any juror have a question of this
15 witness?
16 (No audible response.)
17 THE COURT: All right. You can step down.
18 Do we need to keep her any further?
19 MR. FUCHS: No, Your Honor -- actually, she'll be
20 retained. She can go about her business, but --
21 THE COURT: Okay. You'll be on call. Remain under
22 the Rule of Sequestration.
23 Call your next witness.
24 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir. At this time the State would
25 call Angela Stafford. 366 1 THE COURT: Y'all doing okay? You need a break?
2 Can we get another witness in? we're good. All right.
3 If at any point you need a break, just raise your hand.
4 You need a break? All right. Let's take a break.
5 we'll take 15 minutes.
6 (Jury exits.)
7 THE COURT: Either side need anything?
8 MR. FUCHS: No, Your Honor.
9 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
10 (A recess was had.)
11 THE COURT: All right. Let's have the jury, please.
12 (Jury enters.)
13 THE COURT: Everybody be seated, please.
14 You may proceed, Mr. Fuchs.
15 Ma'am, if you would stand and face the clerk,
16 please. Raise your right hand.
17 whereupon,
18 ANGELA STAFFORD,
19 was called as a witness, having been first duly sworn, was
20 examined and testified as follows:
21 THE COURT: All right. Have a seat and slide up to
22 the microphone, please, ma'am.
23 MR. FUCHS: And if you need to you can pull that
24 microphone down on you too. So that way we can --
25 THE COURT: Don't get her too close to it. Most of 367 1 these witnesses are getting way too close to it,
2 Mr. Fuchs.
3 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir.
4 THE COURT: All right.
5 DIRECT EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. FUCHS:
7 Q Good morning.
8 A Good morning.
9 Q Can you please introduce yourself to the jury?
10 A Angela Stafford.
11 Q Okay. Ms. Stafford, do you live here in
12 Tallahassee, Florida?
13 A No.
14 Q Have you ever lived in Tallahassee, Florida?
15 A Yes.
16 Q when did you live in Tallahassee, Florida?
17 A Ninety-five through ninety-eight.
18 Q okay. During that time period, did you happen to
19 know someone by the name of Mike Williams?
20 A Yes.
21 Q How did you know Mike Williams?
22 A We worked together.
23 Q And where was that?
24 A At Ketchum Realty.
25 Q Did you also know Lindsay Lockhart, formerly Lindsay 1 Ketch urn?
2 A Yes.
3 Q How about Denise williarns?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And Brian winchester?
6 A Yes.
7 Q I think everybody is kind of a group that used to
8 hang out together in sorne way, shape or forrn, or knew the
9 people through Ketchum Realty and things along those lines.
10 Is that fair and accurate?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Okay. And you said you worked with Mike.
13 A Yes.
14 Q At Ketchum?
15 A Yes.
16 Q what did you do there?
17 A I was a runner.
18 Q what does that do? what does that mean?
19 A I would take the appraisals to the various banks or
20 wherever they needed to be delivered. Go to the courthouse
21 and pull plat maps.
22 Q Okay. were you a realtor in any way, shape or forrn?
23 Or is that more like a college -type job or something like
24 that?
25 A I was not a realtor. It was a college job. 369 1 Q while you were working there, did you have to answer
2 phone calls and things along those lines as well?
3 A Yes.
4 Q what is Ketchum Realty though? what is it?
5 A It was -- when I was there it was mostly appraisals,
6 residential and commercial
7 Q okay. where are their offices at?
8 A On Thomasville Road.
9 Q Is it like a stale business -type place or is it more
10 like a home -- a little more looked like a home or how --
11 what's the setup like?
12 A It looks like a house that has been converted into a
13 business.
14 Q Okay. And there are offices throughout it?
15 A There are.
16 Q And who all works there at that time?
17 A Myself, there was a secretary, Clay, Mike Williams
18 and there was another residential appraiser, Robert
19 Culverhouse (phonetic).
20 Q okay. Did Patti Ketchum work up there on occasions?
21 A She didn't work there at that time.
22 Q okay. what about Lindsay?
23 A No.
24 Q okay. Now, you mention at some point -- there was a
25 receptionist, but sometimes you answered phone calls? 370 1 A Yes.
2 Q Okay. Just kind of,I guess, if it's ringing off
3 you pick up the extra calls or if she wasn't there?
4 A Yes. just -- if she was already on another call I
5 would answer to help.
6 Q While working there through the phone calls and
7 through interactions with the business stuff, did you get to
8 know Denise Williams?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Did Denise ever call up?
11 A Yes.
12 Q when she would call up there, I assume she was
13 calling for Mike?
14 A Yes.
15 Q was she ever calling for you?
16 A Not that I recall
17 Q when she's calling up there, did you get to know her
18 voice pretty well?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Able to recognize who it was?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Pretty frequent phone calls?
23 A Yes.
24 Q At some point during those phone calls, are you able
25 to overhear conversations between her and Brian -- her and 371 1 Mi ke?
2 A Yes.
3 Q when i say overhear, are you able to hear both
4 sides, her side of it as well?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Okay. How would you describe those kind of
7 conversations? Let me rephrase it.
8 A okay.
9 Q There's, obviously, a lot of conversations, I
10 assume?
11 A Yes.
12 Q I'd imagine there's normal marital, hi, how you
13 doing, honey, things along those lines?
14 A Not usually.
15 Q Okay. what do you mean?
16 A Not usually the, hi, how are you, how's your day.
17 Q Were they more -- did they stand out to you in some
18 way?
19 A They were just a little bit more direct.
20 Q what do you mean by that?
21 A what are you doing, I need something, you need to go
22 do it.
23 Q Now, who's saying, I need something, you need to go
24 do it, Mike or Denise?
25 A Denise. 372 1 Q And you're able to overhear her saying this?
2 A Sometimes, yes.
3 Q And what kind of things is she telling him to go do?
4 A My car needs gas; you need to come fill it up.
5 Q wait. wait. So she would call him up and ask him
6 to go get gas for her?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Okay. what else?
9 A I'm hungry. what are you bringing me to eat?
10 There's no food in the house. Are you going to stop and get
11 food? Things like that.
12 Q would you describe those as demanding?
13 A Sometimes.
14 Q controlling?
15 A Sometimes.
16 Q At any point did you ever hear Denise threatening
17 Mike? Not with physical violence, but threatening as in sheTs
18 going to go and talk to somebody else?
19 A No.
20 Q Did you ever hear -- overhear phone calls where she
21 was talking about going and calling Brian instead of talking
22 to Mike about something?
23 A Yes.
24 Q what was that about?
25 A what i overheard was, I've got to go call Brian. 373 1 Or, I've already talked to Brian.
2 Q Indicating that her and Brian have a pretty constant
3 communi cati on?
4 A That was my impression, yes.
5 Q At any point did you ever hear, you know, in the
6 fill up my gas or go get me something to eat, did she say,
7 fine, I'll just go call Brian or anything along those lines?
8 A No.
9 Q Nothing like that?
10 A No.
11 Q But on a regular basis she would talk about going
12 and calling Brian?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Over time did you get to know Brian winchester?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Did you and Brian develop something that would be
17 more than just casual friends?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Let's talk about the first time that something like
20 that happened. Do you remember when that was?
21 A Ido.
22 Q when was that?
23 A It was --
24 Q well, let me ask you this: was there an occasion
25 whenever Denise was pregnant that something happened between 374 1 you and Brian?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Okay. Tell me about that.
4 A Mike flew me in for the weekend to surprise Denise
5 for her baby shower. And that Saturday night after the
6 shower --
7 Q Let me stop you right there. okay?
8 A Yes.
9 Q So he flies you in for a baby shower for Denise?
10 A uh-huh.
11 Q Sounds to me like you got to be pretty good friends
12 with everybody at that point?
13 A Yes.
14 Q okay. More than just, I guess, work acquaintances?
15 i mean, if he's flying you back. where were you living at the
16 time?
17 A I was living in Hollywood, Florida.
18 Q Down in that Fort Lauderdale Area?
19 A Fort Lauderdale, west Palm Beach Area.
20 Q Okay. So he flies you back for Denise's baby
21 shower?
22 A uh-huh.
23 Q what happened?
24 A we went to the baby shower that day. And then that
25 night myself, Mike, Denise and Brian went to a bar in Downtown 375 1 Ta] 1 ahassee.
2 Q Okay. Do you rememberwhat bar that was?
3 A It wasat K]eman P]aza,I be]ieve.
4 Q Okay. So right there downtown?
5 A uh-huh.
6 Q By theCapitol Bui]dingand a]l that kind of stuff?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Okay. A]] right. Andso the four of y'a]] went
9 out?
10 A Yes.
11 Q A]] right, what about Kathy, Brian's wife? Is he
12 married sti]] at that time?
13 A Yes, he was married at that time.
14 Q okay. So -- but she wasn't there with you?
15 A She was not.
16 Q okay. So what happened?
17 A we just hung out at the bar ]istening to music,
18 ta]king. You know, kind of reacquainting after not seeing
19 each other for a few months. Just friends hanging out,
20 basica]]y.
21 Q Okay. Did anything out of the ordinary -- I mean,
22 you said it was -- at some point on that evening did you and
23 Brian get to be a ]itt]e bit more chummy?
24 A we ta]ked probab]y more than we had before. Mike
25 and Denise ended up leaving and going home and I stayed out 376 1 with Brian. And he took me back to Mike and Denise's house
2 afterwards.
3 Q Okay. Did Denise havea -- did her demeanor towards
4 you changeat all after that?
5 A Yes.
6 Q What do you mean?
7 A That next morning, orthat next Sunday, she was not
8 as friendlyas she was before. Almost as if I had done
9 somethingwrong. I didn't know. But it was different.
10 Q Okay. Did y'all havea fight that evening?
11 A No.
12 Q To your knowledge, didyou do anything, other than
13 hang outwith Brian, after theyleft?
14 A No.
15 Q If I can back you up alittle bit farther, if I can.
16 Back to 1997-- I'm sorry, not --in 1997 time period, was
17 there anoccasion that you wentout to a concert with Mike,
18 Brian, Deniseand Lindsay?
19 A Yes.
20 Q where was that concertat?
21 A At Floyd's on TennesseeStreet.
22 Q And what did y'all gothere for?
23 A We went to see a SisterHazel concert.
24 Q Okay. And what is SisterHazel?
25 A Sister Hazel was a popband out of Gainesville that 377 1 would come to Tallahassee regularly.
2 Q And it was -- what is that, five of y'all? Is that
3 right?
4 A Five, yes.
5 Q All right. when you were there at the Sister Hazel
6 concert, did something strike you as odd between Brian
7 winchester and Denise?
8 A Yes.
9 Q when was this concert? Do you remember?
10 A I believe it was the fall of '97.
11 Q when you say something odd happened between them,
12 what is it that you saw or heard or whatever?
13 A They were very friendly with each order.
14 Q what do you mean by that?
15 A very close. very touchy. very hands on each other,
16 arms around each other. very friendly.
17 Q Now, Mike was there, was he not?
18 A Yes.
19 Q were they that way in front of him?
20 A Yes.
21 Q That way in front of you?
22 A Yes.
23 Q You knew Mike a while?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Was Mike a drinker? 378 1 A No.
2 Q what about that night?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Much more than you'd ever seen before?
5 A That's the only time I ever recall seeing him drink.
6 Q Out of the ordinary?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Back fast forward a couple years now. was there a
9 time period where you and Brian got intimate together?
10 A Yes.
11 Q when was that?
12 A I believe 2004.
13 Q Okay. This was after Mike has been murdered?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Didn't know that at the time though, correct?
16 A Did not.
17 Q What was that evening about? Where did y'all start
18 out at?
19 A I actually was with Denise that afternoon. we went
20 to North Florida Christian to pick up the kids from school
21 And we ran into Brian and we decided to go out that night.
22 Brian and I -- he picked me up and we went to Denise's house.
23 Q Okay. And -- all right. So Brian picks you up.
24 He's not married to Kathy at this point, correct?
25 A Correct. 379 1 Q Okay. Brian picks you up to go over to Denise's
2 house. what happened next?
3 A when we got there, Denise was not happy because her
4 sitter had canceled and so she could not go out.
5 Q Okay. Did y'all stay there at Denise's house?
6 A For a little bit.
7 Q what did y'all do when you were at Denise's house?
8 A Just talked. She would say she's still trying to
9 find a sitter. But if she couldn't, would we consider staying
10 there and just hanging out.
11 Q Did y'all do so?
12 A No.
13 Q why not?
14 A Brian said, no, we're going out.
15 Q Okay.
16 A If you find a sitter, let us know and we'll tell you
17 where we are.
18 Q All right. So did Denise go with y'all?
19 A No.
20 Q Did you and Brian go out alone?
21 A Yes.
22 Q where did y'all go?
23 A A few places in town. Ended up at a bar called
24 Brothers.
25 Q Okay. was there -- did y'all have drinks along the 1 way?
2 A we did.
3 Q Both of you?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Back at Denise's house, was she having drinks?
6 A I don't recall.
7 Q How about you? was there any drinking going on?
8 Glasses of wine, anything along those lines?
9 A I don't recall.
10 Q okay. Now, Brothers, what is Brothers?
11 A Brothers was a gay nightclub when I lived here.
12 Q okay. Is that some place you would normally go?
13 A No.
14 Q whose suggestion was it to go there then?
15 A Brian.
16 Q Okay. Did you have fun there?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Good time?
19 A Yes.
20 Q okay. Did you and Brian leave? obviously, at some
21 point you left?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Did you leave together?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Okay. where did you go? 381 1 A we went back to his house.
2 Q Okay. who was driving?
3 A Brian.
4 Q Okay. And so you go to his house?
5 A (Nods.)
6 Q Okay. And what happens next?
7 A we proceeded to get intimate.
8 Q Okay. And did something extraordinary happen that
9 eveni ng?
10 A Yes.
11 Q I know it's very sensitive.
12 A In the middle of intimacy, Denise walked into the
13 bedroom.
14 Q At Brian's house?
15 A At Brian's house.
16 Q How did she get in?
17 A I don't know.
18 Q Did she have her child with her?
19 A No.
20 Q So she left the child at home?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And y'all were in the middle of being intimate?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Seems very awkward?
25 A Very. 382 1 Q what happened next?
2 A She saw us and ran out. Brian got up and put a pair
3 of pants on and ran out after her.
4 Q Comes to mind of husband's -- wives coming home and
5 finding their partners in those kind of situations. Is that
6 kind of what it was like?
7 A Yes.
8 Q what did you do?
9 A Panic. Froze. I didn't know what to do.
10 Q How do you know it was Denise?
11 A I saw her.
12 Q I assume you got over the panic and the freezing.
13 what did you do next?
14 A I got up and got dressed and kept asking how did she
15 get in the house. And made him -- I asked him to take me
16 home.
17 Q Did Brian ever tell you who it was?
18 A Not that night.
19 Q was he denying it was Denise?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Didn't tell you it was Denise?
22 A Not that night.
23 Q okay. were you insistent that it was?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Continued to deny it? 383 1 A Continued.
2 Q You say, not that night. was there anothertime
3 that youand Brian talked about the situation?
4 A Yes. we would talk on the phone regularly.
5 Q Okay. Did anything like that happen again?
6 A No.
7 Q Eventually did Brian tell you that it was,in fact,
8 Deni se?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And I assume you and Brian stopped talking,dating,
11 thingsalong those lines?
12 A Eventually, yes.
13 Q The person you talked about, Denise, do yousee her
14 in thecourtroom today?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Can you please point to her and indicate anarticle
17 of clothing,please?
18 A I'm sorry?
19 Q Can you please point to her and indicate anarticle
20 of clothing,please, that she's wearing.
21 A She's sitting right there in the gray sweater.
22 MR. FUCHS: May the record please reflect she's
23 indicatedthe defendant, Ms. Denise Williams.
24 No further questions.
25 THE COURT: Cross? 1 CROSS- EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. WAY:
3 Q Ms. Stafford, let's go back. we're going to go in
4 reverse for a moment here. The time that you were intimate
5 with Brian winchester, that was in 2004?
6 A I believe somewhere around 2004.
7 Q And about the same time Mr. Winchester was trying to
8 get back with his wife Kathy?
9 A That, I did not know.
10 Q You didn't know anything about that?
11 A Nope.
12 Q Never told you, hey, I'm trying to get back with my
13 wife?
14 A No.
15 Q But you and Mr. Winchester weren't married?
16 A No.
17 Q Okay. So, but he's seeing you, you're being
18 intimate, and you don't know anything about his relationship
19 with his wife or ex-wife?
20 A No.
21 Q But you knew Kathy, didn't you?
22 A No.
23 Q Never met her before?
24 A No. Not that I recall.
25 Q Even in late '90s when you were hanging out with the 385 1 williams and Brian, you never met Kathy?
2 A Kathy was never around.
3 Q Okay. Did you know in 1998 when you went out down
4 to Kieman Plaza that Brian winchester was married?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Okay. And you knew his wife's name was Kathy?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And this was the night that you testified that you
9 stayed at the bar with Brian Winchester and Denise and Mike
10 went home?
11 A No. Mike and Denise went home. I staved with
12 Brian.
13 Q You stayed with Brian. You stayed out drinking?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Do you know if Kathy Thomas and Denise Williams were
16 ever good friends?
17 A Yes.
18 Q So when you testified rather readily that you
19 thought it was uncommon that Ms. Williams would maybe give you
20 a look or might have been cold to you the next day, that could
21 be very much because you were out with her friend's husband
22 while she was home pregnant?
23 A Perhaps.
24 Q Okay. That's a reasonable inference on the same
25 facts that were just provided to you by the State, isn't it? 1 MR. FUCHS: Objection. Argumentative.
2 THE COURT: Overruled.
3 BY MR. WAY:
4 Q Ms. williams called up and told her husband, go get
5 me gas. And he just sat there and laughed and went back to
6 work and just keep doing what he was doing at the office,
7 didn't he?
8
9 Q No. What did he do?
10 A He would go get her gas.
11 Q All right. Well, when the times then when she would
12 call up and in very stern voice or very curt, short voice say,
13 go get me some food, what did he do? Did he just sit there
14 and keep working or did he go get her the food?
15 A If he could leave to get her the food, he would get
16 her the food.
17 Q Because Mike was devoted to Denise, wasnTt he?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Loved her deeply?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Loved Anslee deeply?
22 A Yes.
23 Q He would do anything for her?
24 A Yes.
25 Q He was a great husband? 387 1 A Yes.
2 Q And he was a great man?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And no one would pick Brian winchester over Mike
5 williams, would they?
6 A I don't know that.
7 Q well, let's talk about your relationship with
8 Mr. winchester. Because it seems like in 2004, going back to
9 this incident, you were with Denise earlier in the day,
10 weren't you?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Denise wasn't with Brian, was she?
13 A No. only when we saw him at the school.
14 Q Right. Denise was living over on Centennial Oaks?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Okay. And Brian was living somewhere else?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And you went over to her house and Denise couldn't
19 find a babysitter so Denise stayed behind?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And you went out and went to the gay nightclub
22 with -- Mr. Winchester's suggestion, and then you ended up
23 back at Mr. Winchester's house, right?
24 A Yes.
25 Q It wasn't Ms. Williams' house, was it? .ezeJ
1 A No.
2 Q And when Ms. williams came over, you don't know
3 whether Ansleewas in the car? You don't know who was
4 watchingAnslee, do you?
5 A No.
6 Q You're just guessing that?
7 A No.
8 Q In fact, after this incident happened with
9 Ms. Williamswalking in on you and Mr. Winchester, isn't it
10 true sheapologized to you?
11 A Not that I recall
12 Q Ms. Williams never sent you an e-mail saying, hey,
13 I'm sorry,I didn't mean to walk in on you guys?
14 A Not that I recall
15 Q Never talked to Kathy Thomas about what was going
16 on?
17 A No.
18 Q You testified that in the fall of 1997 you had seen
19 the relevantparties together and you said they were very
20 friendly. This was,I believe, at Floyd's Music Store?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Did you know that Mr. Winchester and Ms. Williams
23 had knowneach other since they were three?
24 A No. Not since three.
25 Q Did you know that they all knew each other and they 389 1 were all friendly; Mr. Williams, Mrs. Williams, Mr. winchester
2 and -- well, you don't know anything about Kathy, so let's
3 leave Kathy out of it. But at least winchester, Denise and
4 Mike?
5 A Yes.
6 Q All right. And you say that you saw Mike at the
7 bar. He was drinking a lot?
8 A Yes.
9 Q was he crying?
10 A Crying?
11 Q Yeah.
12 A No.
13 Q All right, what was he drinking?
14 A I don't remember the exact drink.
15 Q okay. well, he's at a bar, there's this Sister
16 Hazel --
17 A Yes.
18 Q And he's at the bar and he's having some drinks.
19 And your testimony was he had more than usual. well, how many
20 more than usual?
21 A That was the first time I'd ever seen him drink, so
22 I don't know what usual.
23 Q okay. So you don't know if he was drinking more
24 because of anything he may have been seeing? You have no
25 point of reference for how much he would have been drinking on 390 1 that particular night?
2 A Right.
3 Q when you're watching him at the bar, is he getting
4 angry?
5 A No.
6 Q Is he throwing anything?
7 A No.
8 Q Is he screaming, whoo-hoo, Sister Hazel?
9 A No.
10 Q He was just sitting there having -- was he drinking
11 beer?
12 A No.
13 Q Just drinking a mixed drink?
14 A Yes.
15 Q sitting at the bar drinking a mixed drink?
16 A I believe we were sitting at a table. A little
17 round table. And he was quiet.
18 Q Quietly drinking?
19 A uh-huh.
20 Q But you don't know if that was because that's what
21 he usually did, because you had never seen it before, had you?
22 A Right.
23 Q You're just making an assumption about why you think
24 he was drinking a lot, aren't you?
25 A I don't know why he was drinking a lot. 391 1 Q Maybe hewas thirsty?
2 A Perhaps.
3 Q Even afterthe times that you would hear
4 Ms. williams on thephone being direct with Mr. williams, you
5 continuedto associatewith Ms. Williams?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And shewas a friend of yours?
8 A Yes.
9 Q In fact,you were with her in 2004?
10 A Yes.
11 Q She canbe a very direct woman, can't she?
12 A Yes.
13 Q She canbe pointed and to the fact?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Have youever been married?
16 A No.
17 Q You everhave long-term boyfriend?
18 A Yes.
19 Q You evertell him what to do?
20 A No.
21 Q You havenever told a boyfriend what to do, ever?
22 A I guess,yes.
23 Q Okay. Sometimesthat's how it works, right?
24 A Sure.
25 MR. WAY: Nothing further, Your Honor. 1 THE COURT: Redirect?
2 MR. WAY: Not redirect, Your Honor. It's a new line
3 of questioning I want to go into.
4 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
5 BY MR. FUCHS:
6 Q At some point did you become involved in a Chuck
7 Bunker incident? Regarding Denise and Chuck Bunker.
8 A Yes.
9 Q How did you get involved?
10 A After the incident at Brian's house I would ask a
11 lot of questions. Because it didn't make sense why Denise
12 walked in that night. And in one of the phone calls he told
13 me that he followed them to Atlanta. Because she told someone
14 that she went to Atlanta with me for a concert. And they
15 called and asked, basically, why didn't I tell them. I'm
16 like, I didn't go anywhere with Denise.
17 Q So she used your name as an excuse to go on the trip
18 with Mr. Bunker?
19 A Yes. And I called her after I found out and asked
20 her why did she lie and use my name. And to not ever do it
21 again, because I didn't go.
22 when i talked to Brian on the phone later --
23 Q Let me stop you right there.
24 A okay.
25 Q when you talked to Denise, what did she say about 393 1 that?
2 A That she had to tell people she was with me because
3 what would people think if they knew she was going out of town
4 with another man.
5 MR. FUCHS: No further questions.
6 THE COURT: You may cross on that subject.
7 RECROSS EXAMINATION
8 BY MR.WAY:
9 Q Was Brianangry about Denise being with Mr. Bunker?
10 A No.
11 Q I mean, butyou and Brian are talking on the phone?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Did Briantell you he drove up to Atlanta to
14 confront Denise andChuck?
15 A He did.
16 Q And he toldyou he went up to Atlanta to confront
17 them because he washappy about what they were doing?
18 A He didn'ttell me why. I was confused. And he -- I
19 was asking questionsand he told me he went up to Atlanta.
20 Q Isn't it truethat Denise told you she was afraid of
21 Brian? She didn't wanthim around her or Chuck?
22 MR. FUCHS: Objection, Your Honor. Calls for
23 hearsay.
24 THE COURT: Overruled.
25 BY MR. WAY: 1 Q Isn't it true that Denise told you she was afraid of
2 Brian winchester being around her and Charles Bunker?
3 A Not that I recall
4 MR. WAY: Okay. Nothing further, Your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Redirect?
6 MR. FUCHS: No, Your Honor.
7 THE COURT: All right. Any juror have a question at
8 this point?
9 (No audible response.)
10 THE COURT: All right. You can step down.
11 Do we need to keep her further?
12 MR. FUCHS: She'll be retained, Your Honor. But she
13 can go about her business.
14 THE COURT: Okay. You're on call.
15 All right. Call your next witness.
16 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, at this time the State would
17 request a lunch break. Based upon our next witness won't
18 be here until one o'clock.
19 THE COURT: Okay. All right. Don't discuss the
20 case with anyone. Don't let anybody discuss the case
21 with you. Don't look at any media accounts.
22 Does an hour give you enough time?
23 All right. Let's be back and ready to go at one
24 o' clock.
25 (Jury exits.) 395 1 THE COURT: Everyone be seated, please. we can come
2 into session or step out.
3 Any issues with either side?
4 MR. FUCHS: Not from the State.
5 THE COURT: How are we doing time -wise, Mr. Fuchs?
6 MR. FUCHS: we are on schedule, maybe even ahead of
7 schedule by the end of the day,I believe.
8 THE COURT: Okay. So let's -- if we needed to go a
9 little late, today would be a good day to do it. So
10 let's keep it on track.
11 MR. FUCHS: The only thing we have is that one
12 witness who we were anticipating be on Thursday morning.
13 She flies in this evening. I think that we're probably
14 going to get through everybody but her. we'd have the
15 one witness tomorrow.
16 THE COURT: Okay. All right. See you all at one.
17 MR. FUCHS: Thank you, Judge.
18 (A lunch recess was had.)
19
20
21
22
23
24
25 396 1 CERTI FICATE
2 STATE OF FLORIDA:
3 COUNTY OF LEON:
4 I, Johana M. Kesterson, Official Reporter, do hereby
5 certify that the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at
6 the time and place therein designated; that my shorthand notes
7 were thereafter translated under my supervision; and the
8 foregoing pages are a true and correct record of the aforesaid
9 proceedings.
10 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative,
11 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor
12 relative or employee of such attorney or counsel , or
13 financially interested in the foregoing action.
14 DATED this 16th day of April, 2019. 15
16
17
18
19
20 JOHANA M. KESTERSON OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 21 LEON COUNTY COURTHOUSE TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301 22
23
24
25 Filing # 88302537 E -Filed 04/22/2019 11:37:26 AM 397
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SECOND JUDICIAL CIRCUIT, IN AND FOR LEON COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. : 2018 -CF -1592
STATE OF FLORIDA
vs. VOLUME IV Pages 397 - 530 DENISE WILLIAMS,
Defendant. -----/
* AMENDED *
PROCEEDINGS: JURY TRIAL
BEFORE: THE HONORABLE JAMES C. HANKINSON
DATE: December 12, 2018
TIME: Commencing at 1:00 p.m. Concluding at 4:18 p.m.
LOCATION: Leon County Courthouse Tallahassee, Florida
REPORTED BY: VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR Official Court Reporter Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at Large
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR Official Court Reporter Leon County Courthouse, Room 341 Tallahassee, FL 32301 1 APPEARANCES
2 REPRESENTING THE STATE:
3 JON FUCHS, ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY JAMES A. ROGERS, ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY 4 OFFICE OF THE STATE ATTORNEY LEON COUNTY COURTHOUSE 5 TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301
6
7
8 REPRESENTING THE DEFENDANT:
9 ETHAN WAY, ESQUIRE WAY LAW FIRM 10 1020 EAST LAFAYETTE STREET, SUITE 112 TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301-4546 11
12 PHILIP J.PADOVANO, ESQUIRE BRANNOCK & HUMPHRIES, P.A. 13 131 NORTH GADSDEN STREET TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301-1507 14
15
16 INDEX
17 WITNESSES: PAGE:
18 JASON NEWLIN Direct Examination By M. Fuchs 533 19 Cross -Examination By r. Way 540
20 WILLIAM H. SCHWOOB, JR. Direct Examination By M. Fuchs 545 21 Cross -Examination By r. Way 565 Redirect Examination By M. Fuchs 566 22 LISA FLANNAGAN 23 Direct Examination By Mr. Rogers 569
24 TIMOTHY LANGLAND Direct Examination By Mr. Rogers 579 25 Cross -Examination y Mr. Way 588
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 399
1 INDEX(cont)
2 WITNESSES: PAGE: 3
4 CHAD CARPENTER Direct ExaminationBy M.Rogers 592 5 WILLIAM MICKLER 6 Direct ExaminationBy Mr.Fuchs 598 Cross -ExaminationBy Mr.way 611 7 Cross -ExaminationBy Mr.Fuchs 617
8 RICHARD WOOTEN Direct ExaminationBy Mr.Rogers 618 9 Cross -Examination y Mr.way 622
10 JOANI SCANDONE CHASE Direct ExaminationBy Mr.Fuchs 626 11 NICK WILLIAMS 12 Direct ExaminationBy Mr.Fuchs 630 Cross -ExaminationMr. Way 637 13 Redirect ExaminationBy M.Fuchs 642.
14 ANN WILLIAMS Direct ExaminationBy Mr.Fuchs 645 15 Cross -Examination y Mr.Padovano 653 Redirect ExaminationBy Mr.Fuchs 657 16
17 STATE'S EXHIBITS
18 10-A through 10-S 554 11 564 19 12-A through 12-G 575 13-A through 13-D 581 20 14-A through 14-D 594 15 652 21
22
23
24
25 Certificate of Reporter 663
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIALCOURT REPORTER 1 PROCEEDINGS
2 THE BAILIFF: All rise. Court is back in session.
3 THE COURT: Let's have a jury, please.
4 THE BAILIFF: Yes, sir.
5 THE COURT: Do you have your next witness in the
6 courtroom, Mr. Fuchs?
7 MR. FUCHS: In the courtroom? Yes, I do.
8 (Jury enters.)
9 THE COURT: If you'd face the clerk and be sworn.
10 Everybody be seated, please.
11 whereupon,
12 JASON NEWLIN
13 was called as a wttness, having been first duly sworn, was
14 examined and testfed as follows:
15 THE COURT: Have a seat.
16 You may proceed, Mr. Fuchs.
17 MS. FUCHS: Thank you, Your Honor.
18 DIRECT EXAMINATION
19 BY MR. FUCHS:
20 Q Good afternoon, sir.
21 A Good afternoon.
22 Q Could you please introduce yourself to the jurors?
23 A My name is Jason Newlin. I'm an investigator with
24 the State Attorney's Office, here in Tallahassee.
25 Q As an investigator with the State Attorney's
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 401
1 Office -- well, let's back up a little bit.
2 How long have you been an investigator with the
3 State Attorney's office?
4 A I've been here almost nine years. Almost 16 years
5 total law enforcement.
6 Q Okay. And who else did you work for prior to coming
7 to the State Attorney's office?
8 A I started my career with the Fish and wildlife
9 Commission. And then I went to wakulla county sheriff's
10 Office, where I worked investigations there and then came up
11 here.
12 Q what are your duties as an investigator with the
13 State Attorney's office?
14 A There's a lot. Follow-up investigations, assist
15 prosecutors with preparation, witness locations, interviews.
16 It's -- a job description is pretty hard to come by, actually.
17 Q Kind of a jack-of-all-trades?
18 A You could say so.
19 Q Okay. Do you have a current assignment at the State
20 Attorney's Office?
21 A I'm assigned to the A Division at the Leon County
22 Courthouse. yeah.
23 Q And, basically, that's my division, correct?
24 A Itis.
25 Q So I'm your supervisor?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 402
1 A Yes.
2 Q okay. Don't mess up.
3 A I'll try not.
4 Q Did you become involved in the murder investigation
5 or the, at that point, disappearance of Mike williams?
6 A i did.
7 Q How is it that you became involved in that, the
8 disappearance aspect of it?
9 A Around October of 2017, our office was prosecuting
10 Mr. Winchester for a separate case. And when an agreement was
11 came to,I was asked to conduct a proffer with Mr. Winchester.
12 Q Now, prior to that date, were you specifically told
13 not to be involved in the investigation regarding the
14 disappearance of Mike williams?
15 A Yes. when the kidnapping case came in,I was
16 instructed do not overlap these two. Your focus is the
17 kidnapping aspect. Do not try to work on the homicide aspect.
18 Q But you were then decided -- you were -- became
19 involved in the actual proffered agreement and statement,
20 correct?
21 A I did. Correct.
22 Q Why is it that you became involved in that?
23 A I had no involvement in the missing person
24 investigation until October of this year -- or of 2017. This
25 case has had numerous, you know, articles of media coverages
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 403
1 and I had not formed an opinion. I had not conducted any of
2 the interviews. So i was coming in with kind of blind, open,
3 and seeing what we could find out.
4 Q why would that be important?
5 A A lot of opinions have been formed throughout the
6 years on this case, and there was a fear of,I guess you could
7 say, trying to get the square peg in the round hole in an
8 interview.
9 with me not have forming an opinion, not having the
10 knowledge, it, it was going to be hard for me to try to make
11 something happen.
12 Q okay. would it also be fair to say, though, because
13 your lack of knowledge, you wouldn't be able to fact check it
14 as you went about how it lighted up to everything else?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q were any steps taken to minimize that issue?
17 A yeah. we had another investigator with me, Tully
18 Sparkman, whoTs had this case for years.
19 Q Okay. what about any other steps?
20 A we had -- we set up a camera system, skype,
21 basically, where we had our interview monitored in another
22 room by agents with FDLE.
23 Q okay. In conducting this interview, you had a
24 chance, obviously, to meet and talk beforehand what was the
25 goal of the State Attorney's Office at that time?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 A Our goal was to get closure for the family. we
2 reallydidn't have any idea where this proffer was going to
3 go. Itwas literally just to get closure for the family in
4 this case.
5 Q Is it fair to say that the main goal was to find
6 Mike williams?
7 A That was the, that was the objective. Yes.
8 Q Okay. During the proffer, it took a different
9 avenue?
10 A It did.
11 Q And that's how we ended up here today, correct?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q Following the proffer and statement by Brian
14 winchester,what was the next step?
15 A He indicated he would take us to the location where
16 he buriedMr. Williams and he did so.
17 Q You said he was going to take you. Is he in custody
18 at thispoint?
19 A He was in custody. He was transported in my vehicle
20 with anotherlaw enforcement officer.
21 Q And you are still a sworn law enforcement officer.
22 A Yes.
23 Q wear a badge, gun.
24 A Yes. Yes.
25 Q Handcuffs.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 405
1 A Yes.
2 Q And, in fact, you're on the united States Marshal
3 FugitiveTask Force, as well, correct?
4 A lam.
5 Q So it wasn't as if he was just taking you out. This
6 is underarmed law enforcement escort, correct?
7 A No. This is correct. we had other agents following
8 us in separatevehicles, as well.
9 Q Okay. was his attorney, Tim Jansen, also present?
10 A He was in the vehicle with us.
11 Q okay. So as I understand it then, it's you, another
12 law enforcementofficer.
13 A (Nods head.)
14 Q Mr. Jansen and Mr. Winchester in your vehicle.
15 A Correct. And Tully Sparkman was the other officer.
16 Q Okay. And did you transport -- did -- ITm sorry.
17 Did Mr. Winchester give you directions on where to
18 go?
19 A He did. After -- during the proffer, he gave us --
20 he drew amap, essentially. But he ended up just drive --
21 telling ushow to get there.
22 Q Okay. Following the proffer and then the ride to
23 the location,how would you describe Mr. Winchester's
24 demeanor?
25 A On the way there, he was very -- he was kind of
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 uptight. On the way back, he actually said, this is, this is
2 a relief.
3 Q where did he take you?
4 A To Gardner Road, Lake -- Carr Lake.
5 Q where is that at?
6 A It's kind of Northeast Tallahassee, North
7 Tallahassee, really.
8 Q Okay. And you drove him there. were you the only
9 persons that were present?
10 A No. There was agents with FDLE there. I think you
11 might have been there. And one of the -- and Andy Rogers,
12 another prosecutor, was there, as well.
13 Q Okay. Did you -- when Mr. Winchester directed you
14 to this location, did yTall remain in the vehicle?
15 A No. We got out with him. We let him get his
16 bearings in the lo -- where we were. He walked down towards
17 the boat ramp. well, you can call it a boat ramp. It's a
18 dirt hill. And he just kind of looked around, looked at a
19 bunch of different trees and he -- it's 17 years later.
20 Things had changed.
21 And he said, the best I can tell you is,"I remember
22 digging a hole near this type of tree." I don't recall
23 exactly what tree it was, but he pointed at the tree and he
24 goes, 'Tthis is going to be my best guess, right in this area."
25 Q Okay. As you mention, members of law enforcement
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 407
1 were also-- Florida Department of Law Enforcement were
2 present?
3 A They were there. Yes.
4 Q Are you aware of whether or not law enforcementtook
5 any furthersteps in order to try to recover Mike williams?
6 A Yes. There was a lot.
7 Q And are you aware whether they were -- you werenot
8 involvedin that recovery operation.
9 A No. I did not go out there after that.
10 Q who was the per -- who was it that was involvedin
11 that?
12 A Investigator Sparkman. But it was mostly FDLE
13 agents.
14 Q okay. And to your knowledge, did they -- werethey
15 able to recoverthe remains of Mike williams?
16 A Yes, they were.
17 MR. FUCHS: No further questions.
18 THE COURT: Cross.
19 CROSS-EXAMINATION
20 BY MR. WAY:
21 Q Good afternoon, Investigator Newlin.
22 A Good afternoon.
23 Q The FDLE is the late -- the lead agency on theMike
24 williams'disappearance?
25 A Yes. For the most part.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 Q About the time you were involved in finding the
2 remains,was the case being taken over by special Agent
3 Mickler?
4 A He was one of two.
5 Q The other agent was Agent Devaney?
6 A Correct.
7 Q And, to your knowledge, has Agent Devaney since
8 retired?
9 A Yes.
10 Q The -- in the course of your communication in the
11 investigationrelated to Mr. winchester, Mr. Winchester gave
12 severalstatements to law enforcement; isn't that correct?
13 A In the course -- I did one proffer with
14 Mr. Winchester.
15 Q And that was a proffer on October 9th, 2017?
16 A Correct.
17 Q were you aware of the proffer that took place on
18 October12th, 2017?
19 A I'm aware of one. Yes.
20 Q All right. Have you reviewed the transcript or any
21 informationrelated to that?
22 A I have not.
23 Q were you aware of an additional FDLE proffer on
24 February12th of 2018?
25 A I'm aware of conversations. Yes.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 Q And are you aware that Mr. Winchester gave a
2 deposition on August 24th, 2018, to Mr. Padovano and myself?
3 A Yes,Iam.
4 Q Did you review that?
5 A No.
6 Q In the course of your investigation and follow-up as
7 it relates specifically to your proffer, you ask -- or there
8 was information provided by Mr. Winchester as to what happened
9 with Mr. Williams on the date in question, December 16th,
10 2000?
11 A The way I did the proffer?
12 Q Yes, sir.
13 A Honestly, I sat down with him and said, tell us what
14 happened and let him take it from there. I don't recall
15 asking a question for probably 20 or 30 minutes into this
16 thing.
17 Q So it was a -- i don't want to say it was a friendly
18 environment, but it was not a confrontational -type
19 investigation?
20 A No. It was definitely you tell us what you know.
21 we will ask questions when we feel like we need them. There
22 wasn't a -- I guess you're trying to say an interrogation
23 aspect to it. Not really, no.
24 Q well, not like this, not where --
25 A No.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 410
1 Q -- we're going back and forth with very short
2 answers.
3 A No.
4 Q So Mr. winchester was, essentially, given the
5 opportunity to provide whatever information he wanted to
6 provide to you without a lot of interruption or interjection?
7 A Correct.
8 Q Did Mr. Winchester, on October 9th, 2017, tell you
9 that Mike Williams was killed holding onto a stump?
10 A No. He did not tell us that. No.
11 Q Did Mike Williams -- or did, rather, Brian
12 Winchester tell you at his proffer that he placed Mike
13 williams or a portion of Mike williams' remains in a dog crate
14 to drive back to Tallahassee?
15 A No. Just in the back of his vehicle.
16 Q Did Mr. Winchester tell you at the proffer on
17 October 9th, 2017, that he had to wash the blood off the
18 exterior of his Suburban, because it was dripping down onto
19 his driveway?
20 A I remember him saying he took it to a car wash off
21 of Tharpe Street and old Bainbridge and cleaned it thoroughly.
22 Whether it was inside or outside, I don't remember the
23 specifics.
24 Q And did Mr. Winchester tell you that he was the
25 distance between himself and Mr. williams, when he shot him in
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 411
1 the face, was three feet or less?
2 A Three feet sticks out. I don't know if it was three
3 feet or less or close to three feet or what his, his exact
4 words were.
5 Q Could it have been more than three feet?
6 A Could he have said more than?
7 Q Yes, sir.
8 A I don't recall.
9 MR. WAYT: All right. Nothing further, Your Honor.
10 THE COURT: Redirect.
11 MR. FUCHS: No, Your Honor.
12 THE COURT: Any juror have a question of this
13 witness? All right. You can step down. Remain subject
14 to recall.
15 Call your next witness.
16 MR. FUCHS: Yes, Your Honor.
17 (Witness exits.)
18 THE COURT: I hope everybody got a chance to get out
19 at lunch. It's much nicer today than yesterday. It was
20 kind of brutal out there yesterday. very pleasant out
21 there today. I'm sorry to keep you in this windowless
22 courtroom here. It's not the courtroom I normally use.
23 The one I normally use is a little nicer, truthfully.
24 But we don't have as big a jury room, so you can't fit in
25 there.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 412
1 If you'd face the clerk and be sworn, please.
2 whereupon,
3 WILLIAM H. SCHWOOB, JR.
4 was called as a wttness, having been first duly sworn, was
5 examined and tesdfed as follows:
6 THE WITNESS: I was looking for you in your normal
7 courtroom.
8 THE COURT: Have a seat. Slide up to the
9 microphone, please, sir.
10 DIRECT EXAMINATION
11 BY MR. FUCHS:
12 Q Good afternoon, sir.
13 A Good afternoon.
14 Q Can you please introduce yourself to the juror?
15 A My name is William H. Schwoob, Jr. I'm also known
16 as ward. I'm a crime laboratory analyst supervisor with the
17 Florida Department of Law Enforcement.
18 Q what does that mean?
19 A I supervise three sections of the crime laboratory.
20 One of them is the crime scene section. I've been a
21 supervisor there for 15 years. I also go out and assist with
22 crime scene investigations.
23 Q okay. I'm assuming over that time period you've had
24 some training on how to do a crime scene.
25 A Yes, sir.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 413
1 Q Okay. If you could tell the jurors a little bit
2 about that.
3 A well, 33 years ago, I was hired as a crime scene
4 analyst with the FDLE. At that point, I spent a year of
5 in-house training, where I learned the capabilities of the
6 crime lab and how to collect and document evidence at crime
7 scenes. Since then,I have taught numerous schools on crime
8 scene investigation. I have been to FBI for crime scene
9 schools. And every year i have additional training in the
10 area of crime scene.
11 Q LetTs talk about, in general, crime scene processing
12 and how you go about doing things in general before we start
13 talking about this particular case.
14 A okay.
15 Q How --
16 A In general, we're directed to an area where a crime
17 has reportedly occurred. we're called by law enforcement
18 officers. we are then responsible for going in and examining
19 the area to look for potential evidence.
20 we then collect that evidence, document it through
21 photography, notes, and sketching, and then we collect that
22 evidence, we package it to preserve its integrity, we then
23 take it back to our laboratory, and we submit it to our
24 evidence section.
25 From there, it will be checked out by each of the
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 414
1 specialists -- or the specialty sections within the laboratory
2 for them to do their analysis.
3 Q Okay. Photographs, a major part of what it is that
4 you do in order to document the way you do things?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q would it be fair to say that not every crime scene
7 is the same?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q They all kind of take a unique situation that you
10 have to,I guess, adapt to.
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q At some point in your professional career, did you
13 become involved in the investigation regarding the death --
14 or, actually, at that time, missing persons investigations
15 regarding Mike williams?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q How did you initially get involved?
18 A Initially, I was called by Special Agent Mike
19 Devaney. I believe it was in March of 2011. He had located a
20 vehicle that was reportedly -- had belonged to Denise and
21 Michael Williams in salvage yard up in Alabama. He had
22 arranged for that vehicle to be transported to our laboratory
23 so that we could look for any potential evidence in that
24 vehicle.
25 Q Okay. And did you do so?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 415
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q okay. How do you go about processing a vehicle?
3 A well, the first thing we do is we photograph the
4 condition of it. And we visually observe looking for any
5 items of obvious evidence.
6 In this particular case, the vehicle had been
7 scrapped out by a -- in a salvage yard, so it was missing
8 large pieces. But we were looking for evidence that a body
9 may have been transported in that vehicle. One of the items
10 that helps us or type of evidence that really helps us with
11 that is any blood or body fluids that may be located in the
12 vehicle.
13 So we have several chemicals that we can use. One
14 is called BlueStar, which we spray the area in pretty much
15 total darkness. And it will luminesce or cause potential
16 bloodstains to glow. we then turn on the lights, and we have
17 another presumptive test that we can use called Kastle-Meyer
18 reagent that will tell us whether those stains are blood or
19 not. we apply that. And then we would collect any samples
20 that had positive reactions.
21 Q okay. And in doing so with this vehicle that
22 belonged to Denise Williams, did you find anything of
23 evidentiary value as it relates to the disappearance of Mike
24 williams?
25 A No, sir.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 416
1 Q Okay. Were you ever asked to process a vehicle for
2 Brian winchester, that Mr. winchester used to own?
3 A I don't believe I was. Members of the laboratory
4 may have.
5 Q okay. Be fair to say, though, typically, when one
6 person's involved, there's the -- they maintain who it is
7 that's going to be processing, usually? Especially one as
8 high -profile as this.
9 A usually.
10 Q And --
11 A EXCept for in this particular case, where it spanned
12 over so many years. We're unable to keep the same people
13 processing it.
14 Q You've been a supervisor there and been at that lab
15 in a long time -- for a long time, correct?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q Are you aware of anybody ever processing or finding
18 Brian Winchester's vehicle for processing?
19 A I'm not aware of that.
20 Q Okay. In October of 2017, were you asked, again, to
21 be involved in what is now classified as a homicide
22 investigation with Mike Williams?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q How did you become involved in that one?
25 A I was called to -- well, again, by Special Agent
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 417
1 Mike Devaney to an area near Carr Lake, which is off of
2 Meridian Road in Northern Tallahassee. I was told that there
3 was a,a report that a body may have been buried there. And I
4 was asked to kind of direct the examination or, or the, the
5 function of locating that body and recovering any evidence
6 from it.
7 Q okay. Did this particular location present unusual
8 problems?
9 A Yes, sir, it did.
10 Q what's that?
11 A The area was overgrown. It had numerous large
12 trees, underbrush, and it was also flooded. Normally, when we
13 do a, a search for a buried body, we try and have a cleared
14 area. we will use cadaver dogs to try and help us locate
15 areas where the potential scent of a cadaver may be. we can
16 also use ground -penetrating radar, which will allow us to look
17 for any voids in the, in the soil composition.
18 This particular case, the ground -penetrating radar
19 wouldn't work, because it was under water. And we don't use
20 it under water. we had to clear the area to be able to get
21 access in there. cadaver dogs were brought in, and they did
22 alert on several areas. unfortunately, the areas were under
23 water. And I had been told that the scent of, of a cadaver
24 can travel through water. So the dogs weren't able to
25 pinpoint a very small area where the body might be. if they
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 had been able to, that's where we would have started digging.
2 with it being under water, one of the first things
3 we had to do is figure out, okay, how do we remove the water?
4 we had Leon County come out, their -- the Public works. And
5 they put up what is called a coffer dam, which is a
6 water -filled bladder that surrounds the area that we want to
7 examine and they pump the water out. we were then able to go
8 in and use heavy equipment to start removing soil very
9 meticulously.
10 I'm sorry, but before we did that, we had a tree
11 company come in and clear all the large trees in the brush so
12 we could have access to the ground area.
13 Q The large equipment you're talking about, does
14 Florida Department of Law Enforcement have that equipment and
15 people that are trained to use those kind of -- that kind of
16 equipment?
17 A No, sir. we relied on Leon County public works to
18 supply that equipment.
19 Q So what would your role be during all this?
20 A My role was to oversee the entire excavation. As a
21 backhoe took a scoop of dirt, I was there watching the dirt
22 being removed, looking for any artifacts that may have been
23 scooped up.
24 Each scoop was taken and dumped on a large plywood
25 deck area, where we had additional people that then used rakes
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 419
1 and shovels to go through that debris that was removed. we
2 started on...
3 Q Let me stop you real quick.
4 A Okay.
5 Q what is a backhoe?
6 A A backhoe is a piece of heavy equipment that is --
7 has track-like transport devices instead of wheels. It has a
8 big armwith a big shovel on the end that hydraulically goes
9 out andcan -- and dig trenches.
10 Q oh. One of those big, old buckets that scoop up big
11 piecesof dirt?
12 A Yes.
13 Q The -- as youT re doing this search and you talk
14 about thebackhoe scooping up pieces of dirt, are they just
15 takinga big, huge piece of dirt?
16 A No, sir. we're taking -- we had a very skilled
17 backhoeoperator, and he was able to actually take anywhere
18 from twoto four inches at a time and, and move it across.
19 Q Okay. And your job is to supervise all of this,
20 correct?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q Okay. Are you there overseeing to make sure
23 people-- or anything of evidentiary value is found and how
24 peoplesift through it?
25 A Yes, sir.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 420
1 Q The people that are sifting through it, is that you
2 and lawenforcement officers, or is it also the Public works
3 folks?
4 A No. It was law enforcement officers and members of
5 the crimescene section.
6 Q Now, this excavation and, and search for the remains
7 happenedin October of 2017?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q And, at that point, it was still secret; is that
10 fair tosay?
11 A It was kept low key. Yes, sir.
12 Q Okay. It sounds like you had a lot of people there.
13 So thatcreated some of the issues.
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q And it wasn't until December that it was revealed,
16 correct?
17 A That's correct.
18 Q okay. In doing so, even with the unique
19 circumstances,did you take photographs to document what was
20 being done?
21 A Yes, sir,I did.
22 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, may I approach?
23 THE COURT: You may.
24 BY MR. FUCHS:
25 Q I'm showing you what's been previously marked,
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 421
1 marked for identification purposesStateTsExhibit --
2 Composite Exhibit 10-A through S. withoutshowing those to
3 the jurors, if you can take a lookat that,please.
4 (Pause.)
5 BY MR. FUCHS:
6 Q Do you recognize those photographs?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q what do those photographs appear to depict?
9 A These photographs depict the excavation area. The
10 first photograph is actually a Google Earth photograph showing
11 the general location off of Meridian Road. Then these
12 photographs kind of walk into the scene and show the stages of
13 the excavation.
14 Q Do they fairly and accurately depict the excavation,
15 as well as the location?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, at this time I'll move
18 State's Composite Exhibit No. 10-A through S into
19 evidence, please.
20 THE COURT: Any object --
21 MR. WAYT: No objection, Your Honor.
22 THE COURT: Admitted without objection.
23 (State's Exhibit Nos. 10-A through 10-s received in
24 evidence.)
25 BY MR. FUCHS:
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 422
1 Q And you mentioned the first photograph. There's a
2 map ofthe area.
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q Now, Carr Lake, up in here, is a larger area. where
5 exactlyare we talking about on the lake? Do I need to zoom
6 in?
7 A Yeah. I'm having a hard time. where is Gardner
8 Road?
9 THE COURT: Maybe you hand him the photo. Let him
10 getoriented.
11 MR. FUCHS: ITm going to hand it to you. It gets a
12 littleblurry.
13 (Brief pause.)
14 THE WITNESS: Okay.
15 THE COURT: Has he given you a pointer?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
17 THE COURT: Okay.
18 BY MR.FUCHS:
19 Q So where are we looking at in the general area of
20 Carr Lake?
21 A In here is Carr Lake, and in this area here.
22 Q Okay. So we're talking on the -- I guess that would
23 be theeast side of Carr Lake.
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q Correct? okay. Closest to Meridian Road?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 423
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q Photograph 10-B, what are we looking at here?
3 A This is a photograph from the end of Gardner Road.
4 GardnerRoad is paved to a point, and then it becomes dirt.
5 And it'sa dirt road until it gets down to around the tree
6 line. Andthis is the edge of the tree line, which is facing
7 the ex --actual excavation area.
8 Q Okay. So the excavation area would be down this
9 road?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q 10-c?
12 A This is a photograph further down the road, where we
13 could actuallyget to the water area on the left, showing the
14 overgrowthwhen we got there.
15 Q Okay. And this is -- the photograph here, is this
16 after theexcavation or before?
17 A This is before the excavation.
18 Q All right. So this is be -- as it is when you first
19 get there?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q Photograph 10-D.
22 A This is another photograph where we've gone further
23 down theroad, down to the lakeshore, showing the water
24 locationand the overgrowth before we excavated.
25 Q 10-E.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 424
1 A An additional photograph showing an area further
2 down the road.
3 Q And is this the area, ultimately, the excavation
4 would start, this exposure in the last picture of the
5 excavation area?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Photograph 10-F.
8 A Okay. This is a photograph after the trees and
9 brush have been removed of the, of the same area.
10 Q 10-G.
11 A 10-G is --
12 Q what are we looking at here?
13 A That is a photograph of the previous area but after
14 the coffer damn has been put up and the water has been pumped
15 out.
16 Q what is a coffer dam?
17 A coffer dam is a water -filled bladder that is used to
18 prevent water from intruding back in, kind of like a, a large
19 ziploc bag. If you fill with it water and then you put it on
20 a plate and you manage to move all the water, it would prevent
21 any additional water from coming in.
22 THE COURT: Can you spell that?
23 THE WITNESS: Coffer dam? C -O -F -F -E -R.
24 THE COURT: Okay.
25 THE WITNESS: D -A -M.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 425
1 BY MR. FUCHS:
2 Q And is that what we're looking at here, this black,
3 plastic -looking stuff?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q what's this right here?
6 A That's a pump, a sump pump used to pump the water
7 out.
8 Q I'm sorry. A what pump?
9 A Sump, S -U -M -P.
10 Q Okay. And what does a sump pump do?
11 A Pumps water.
12 Q 10-H, what are we looking at here?
13 A Okay. In the background is the coffer dam. we had
14 to support it by driving metal stakes in. Otherwise, the
15 water -- the whole black bag thing would just kind of roll
16 back in. So there are metal stakes there. And this is
17 actually in the center of the photograph showing an area that
18 we've excavated where a tarp has been exposed. And underneath
19 that tarp are actually the skeletal remains of Mike Williams.
20 Q It looks like some striations going on right here.
21 what are we looking at right there?what are those?
22 A Those striations are from the bucket of the backhoe.
23 They actually have teeth. And when they, they dig in, they
24 leave those striations.
25 Q About how deep are we talking about? How deep was
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 426
1 this?
2 A oh.
3 Q Are we talking about ten feet, five feet, three
4 feet, twofeet?
5 A Probably three feet. But under about six feet --
6 three feetand another four foot of water.
7 Q Okay.
8 A So that -- that's -- that was my hesitation. It was
9 about threefeet of water. And then there was about three
10 feet of mud.
11 Q 10-I.
12 A That's a photograph from another direction showing
13 the tarp. ItTs also showing me standing next to the tarp,
14 there inthe top left, and additional workers in the
15 background.
16 Q 1O -J.
17 A This is a closer photograph of the tarp and,
18 actually,the skeletal remains.
19 Q Can you please point to us where the skeletal
20 remains arehere? I'm having trouble seeing it.
21 A It's in the center of the photograph.
22 Q Do you have the pointer there?
23 A Yeah. Right here.
24 Q So this is a bone?
25 A I think the next photographs will show it a little
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 427
1 better.
2 Q okay. 10-K.
3 A okay. Here are the actual -- that's a -- the foot
4 which wasencased in a bootie. That's the left leg bone.
5 That's thefemur. And the spine is up in this direction.
6 Q 10-L.
7 A This is a closer photograph showing that bootie
8 there onthe left side, the left leg, the left knee, and the
9 left femurbone.
10 Q 10-M.
11 A This is a -- kind of a step back photograph from the
12 previousone. Again, showing the bootie, the left leg, the
13 spinal cord,and the tarp there.
14 Q 10-N.
15 A This is a closer photograph where we've actually
16 removedthe tarp, and we've started removing some of the mud
17 that wason top of the skeleton. You see here the left
18 bootie,again, the leg being bent. And here in the center is
19 the pelvicarea with a pair of red boxer shorts.
20 Q Did you continue those efforts in order to -- and
21 recoverlarge skeletal remains?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q when you do that, how do you go about preserving
24 them?
25 A well, the first difficulty is actually how to get
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 them out of the mud. So what we try and do is we terrace
2 around the body or the skeletal remains itself, removing the
3 dirt and trying to leave as much beneath it just to support
4 it. Then we will go in and we'll start removing the support
5 underneath, and we will actually cradle the remains and then
6 take it out and we'll lay it on a sheet once we've removed it
7 from the mud.
8 Q Photograph 10-0.
9 A This is a photograph of the skeletal remains as
10 they're laid out on the sheet. up at the very top is the
11 boxers and the different parts.
12 Q These appear to be gloves; is that correct?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q Okay. And then the bootie that we previously looked
15 at?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q Now, once you are able to excavate and get out the
18 skeletal remains here, what is the next step in this process?
19 A The next step in this process -- well , in this
20 particular case, the medical examiner came to the scene to
21 help us with the placement and make sure we had the majority
22 of the skeleton. But then it would be transported to the
23 medical examiner's facility for her to do an autopsy or a
24 medical examination of the remains.
25 Q Do you have any role in that?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 429
1 A Yes, sir. I assist with the packaging of the
2 remainsfor transport to the medical examiner's facility. And
3 I also attendthe autopsies to help the medical examiner with
4 photographyand to help collect any artifacts or evidence that
5 is foundon the remains.
6 Q And did you do so?
7 A Yes, sir,I did.
8 Q Did you have an opportunity to observe all the
9 things that-- who actually performed the autopsy?
10 A Dr. Flannagan.
11 Q At the medical examiner's office?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q And did you have an opportunity to observe this, as
14 well asany kind of x-rays, or anything along those lines,
15 that shetakes?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q Photograph 10-P.
18 A This is a photograph of an x-ray on a light box
19 showingthe head area of the skeletal remains. Any of the
20 light areasare more radiologically opaque. In other words,
21 they'redenser. They show the bone areas. They show any
22 artifactsthat are in the skull itself.
23 Q Skip one and go to 1O -R. what is this?
24 A Those are shot pellets from a shotgun shell and also
25 the shotcup from a shotgun shell.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 430
1 Q what is a shot cup?
2 A Shot cup -- a shotgun shell consists of a plastic or
3 fiber outer casing with a -- normally a brass or a metal base
4 to it. Contained within this whole cylinder is numerous shot
5 pellets. And at the base of -- at the base of where the
6 pellets are, there's a plastic container that helps hold all
7 the, all the shot pellet together. And when it's fired out of
8 the shotgun, it then comes out the end of the barrel. The
9 pellet goes out and the shot cup falls off. So it helps keep
10 the shot -- all the small pellets together until it comes out
11 the end of a barrel.
12 Q Now, the shot cup, as it's projected, doesn't just
13 fall off. ItTs still going forward?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Not as high as the velocity as the bullets are,
16 correct -- or the pellets?
17 A That's correct.
18 Q And were these items recovered from the head of Mike
19 williams?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q Photograph 10-Q, what are we looking at here?
22 A These, again, are radiographs, x-rays showing the
23 hands of Mike williams. And they were within gloves, so they
24 contained all the small bones. All the light objects are
25 bones. And it also shows any artifacts within the hands.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 431
1 Q was there an artifact found within the hands?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q what was found?
4 A There was a wedding ring found on the left ring
5 finger. It's this circular object here.
6 Q Photograph 10-S.
7 A That's a closeup photograph of the wedding band.
8 Q Showing what's been previously marked for
9 identificationpurposes State's Exhibit No. 11. Ask if you
10 have --do you recognize that item?
11 A Yes, sir,I do.
12 Q what does the item appear to be?
13 A This is the wedding band in the photograph there
14 that wastaken from the left ring finger of the skeletal
15 remains.
16 Q Same or substantially the same condition as it was
17 when youseized it from the Medical Examiner's office?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, at this time I move State's
20 Exhibit11 into evidence.
21 THE COURT: Any objection to 11?
22 MR. WAY: No objection, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: will be admitted.
24 (State's Exhibit No. 11 received in evidence.)
25 BY MR. FUCHS:
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 432
1 Q Now, we've been referring to the remains found as
2 being Mike williams. It's my understanding that the Florida
3 Department of Law Enforcement conducted DNA testing to make
4 that determination; is that correct?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q And was it in fact determined to be Mike williams?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, permission to publish
9 State's Exhibit 11 to the jury.
10 THE COURT: You may.
11 (Pause.)
12 MR. FUCHS: I have no further questions, Your Honor.
13 THE COURT: Cross.
14 CROSS-EXAMINATION
15 BY MR. WAY:
16 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Schwoob.
17 A Good afternoon.
18 Q Based on your experience and training and consistent
19 with the photographs you just showed the jury, was the wound
20 caused by a close range shotgun blast to the head?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q And that would be what could be considered three
23 feet or less?
24 A No, sir. I would say three to ten feet.
25 Q would there have been substantial amount of blowback
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 433
1 or damage as a result of that shotgun shot to the face?
2 A There could have. Yes, sir.
3 Q would there have been quite amount -- large amount
4 of bloodor other biological tissue?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 MR. WAY: Nothing further, Your Honor.
7 THE COURT: Redirect.
8 MR. FUCHS: Yes, Your Honor.
9 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
10 BY MR. FUCHS:
11 Q You say there could be.
12 A Excuse me?
13 Q You said there could be blowback.
14 A Yes, sir. There could be.
15 Q Could there not be?
16 A Yes, sir. There could not be.
17 Q what kind of factors are we talking about there?
18 A well, the factors would be the amount of destruction
19 that occurred,whether there was actually any rebound. Shot
20 pellets wentin, hit something, and they would bounce back
21 out, windconditions, air velocities.
22 Q Okay.
23 A You know --
24 Q Specifically, if there was, in fact, blowback, what
25 we're talkingabout is blood and things like that that had
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 434
1 come backwards, essentially, is what we're talking about,
2 correct?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q Okay. If there was, in fact, blowback that ended up
5 on the sideof a boat in the morning hours, if there was a
6 torrentialdownpour, would that sufficiently -- do you believe
7 that wouldhave washed away most of the blood?
8 A Yes, sir. It could have.
9 Q And, in fact, that's how you keen clean up blood,
10 correct?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q Cut yourself on the finger before?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q How do you clean that up?
15 A soak it with water. Flush it off.
16 MR. FUCHS: No further questions.
17 THE COURT: Any juror have a question of this
18 witness?
19 (No audible response.)
20 THE COURT: All right. You can step down. Do we
21 needto keep him further?
22 MR. FUCHS: No, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: Do you need him for any reason, Mr. way?
24 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
25 THE COURT: You're excused. Thank you for being
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 435
1 here.
2 (witness exits.)
3 THE COURT: who's your next witness going to be?
4 MR. ROGERS: Dr. Flannagan.
5 THE COURT: Maybe we ought to go ahead and take our
6 break. Do you think it would be a good time to take a
7 break?
8 MR. FUCHS: ITm sorry? I think probably -- either
9 now or right after her. she's not going to be very
10 extensive --
11 THE COURT: Okay.
12 MR. FUCHS: -- given the circumstances --
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 MR. FUCHS: -- in this case.
15 THE COURT: Sometimes that's pretty lengthy.
16 MR. FUCHS: This is not going to be one of the
17 longer ones.
18 THE COURT: Okay.
19 (Pause.)
20 THE COURT: If you'd face the clerk and be sworn,
21 please, ma'am.
22 whereupon,
23 LISA FLANNAGAN
24 was called as a wttness, having been first duly sworn, was
25 examined and testfed as follows:
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 436
1 THE COURT: Have a seat. Slide up to the
2 microphone, please, ma'am.
3 DIRECT EXAMINATION
4 BY MR. ROGERS:
5 Q Doctor, can you please state and spell your name for
6 the record?
7 A Lisa Flannagan. That's F -L -A -N -N -A -G -A -N.
8 Q Can you -- how are you currently employed?
9 A I'm employed as an associate medical examiner in
10 this district.
11 Q How long have you been a medical examiner?
12 A I've worked full-time as a medical examiner in
13 Florida since 1995.
14 Q And can you tell me a little bit about your training
15 and experience to get to where you are today?
16 A Yes. i received my undergraduate degree from
17 Florida State university. I then attended the university of
18 Florida, College of Medicine. And I received my MD degree in
19 1990. And after that, I completed a five-year residency
20 program in pathology. And I did that at the university of
21 North Carolina in Chapel Hill. And that included training in
22 clinical pathology, anatomic pathology, and a one-year
23 fellowship position in forensic pathology, which is my
24 specialty.
25 Q Are you board certified?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 437
1 A Yes. I'm board certified in clinical pathology,
2 anatomic pathology, and forensic pathology.
3 Q Okay. Can you tell the jury what your general
4 duties are as a medical examiner?
5 A well, Florida has a medical examiner system to
6 investigate deaths. So there are certain deaths that fall
7 under our jurisdiction. Those are deaths that are not
8 natural, homicides, suicide, accidental deaths. And we take
9 jurisdiction of those cases and do a complete death
10 investigation.
11 Q How many death investigations would you say you've
12 been a part of?
13 A At this point, probably over 4000.
14 MR. ROGERS: Judge, at this time I would tender the
15 witness as to her ability to give an opinion testimony.
16 THE COURT: Any voir dire?
17 MR. WAY: No voir dire, Your Honor.
18 THE COURT: Okay. You may proceed.
19 BY MR. ROGERS:
20 Q All right, Dr. Flannagan. How did you become in
21 this case -- become involved in this case?
22 A I was notified by an agent with FDLE that they were
23 at the scene with some skeletal remains.
24 Q All right. And did you actually go out to the
25 scene?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 A Yes. I did respond to the scene.
2 Q okay. And where was that at?
3 A It was out Gardner Road.
4 Q And that's here in Leon County?
5 A Leon County. Yes.
6 Q okay. when you got to the scene, can you describe
7 it to the jury?
8 A They had evidently been searching several days
9 trying to find the remains, and they found the remains. And
10 that's when they called me to come out just to be there to see
11 where the remains were, what kind of condition they were in,
12 the environment that they were found in, and just to assist as
13 they were recovered, to try to collect every bone that we
14 could find.
15 Q okay. Can you describe the area that they were
16 recovered?
17 A It was gray, thick mud. So it was a very difficult
18 area to get to, to get the remains.
19 Q Now, were you able to do any examination at the
20 scene of the, the remains that were recovered?
21 A I did not do much of an examination at the scene.
22 The -- there was mud all over the skeletal remains. There was
23 some clothing. So we just gathered everything that we could
24 and wrapped it in a sheet and then transported it to the
25 morgue to do a more thorough examination.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 439
1 Q Now, you mentioned clothing. Can you describe the
2 clothingthat you saw with these remains?
3 A The clothing there, there was a long sleeve shirt
4 on. Thearms were still in the sleeves of the shirt, but the
5 shirt itself had been pulled over the head. There were plaid
6 boxers. There were -- there was a glove on each hand. And
7 then on the left foot there was a sock and a -- what I called
8 a bootie.
9 Q Okay. So, eventually, the remains were transported
10 back to your office; is that right?
11 A They were transported to the morgue.
12 Q To the morgue. where did you perform the autopsy?
13 A we perform autopsies in the morgue at Tallahassee
14 MemorialHealthcare.
15 Q okay. Can you tell the jury how you go about
16 startingan autopsy in this type of case, where all you have
17 is skeletal remains?
18 A well, for this particular case, before I disturbed
19 anything,I took x-rays of all of the remains.
20 Q All right, when you took x-rays, did you find
21 anythingthat stood out to you as abnormal?
22 A Yes. One of the first things that we saw in the
23 head, there were extensive skull fractures. And then I could
24 see numerous bird shot pellets.
25 Q when you talk about skull fractures, can you
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER ii.
1 describethosein moredetail?
2 A well,they'reextensive fractures of the skull. And
3 those stayed together after he decomposed, because the shirt
4 had been pulled up over the head. So those were all together
5 and not scattered. So that's why I was able to find the
6 fragments of the skull,as well as to recover the bird shot
7 pelletsand, actually,the shot cup, as well
8 Q Okay. And Ibelieve the jury had some testimony
9 earlierabout what a shotcup is. what is your understanding
10 of whata shot cup is?
11 A well, when ashotgun is fired, the ammunition is the
12 shot cupwhich is the plasticcup, basically, with the pellets
13 in it. So when the gunis fired, the shot cup will come out
14 of the end. And as ittravels through the air, that plastic
15 shot cupwill start tospread, and the pellets will be
16 dispersed. But when it initially comes out, it's all
17 together.
18 Q And you said you recovered both bird shot pellets
19 and the shot cup from the skull of Mr. williams?
20 A Yes, I did.
21 Q okay. were you able to examine the rest of the
22 skeletal remains for injuries?
23 A Yes. So the remainder of the autopsy, all of the
24 bones were cleaned to get the mud off them. And then they
25 were all examined and they were x-rayed. And I didn't see any
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 441
1 other injuries. Several of the bones were extensively
2 deteriorated and fragile. But from what I could see, there
3 were no other injuries.
4 Q How -- i mentioned earlier that these were the
5 remains of Mike williams. How did we go about determining
6 that?
7 A I turned over a segment of the bone to FDLE, and
8 then it was sent to the lab and DNA testing was performed to
9 establish positive ID.
10 Q Based on everything that you were able to examine,
11 do you have an opinion as to what caused the death of Mike
12 williams?
13 A Yes. I ruled the cause of death as a shotgun wound
14 to the head.
15 Q Okay. Do you have an opinion on where he was shot
16 from, which direction?
17 A well, looking at the fracture to the skull, it
18 appeared that he had been shot in the facial area.
19 MR. ROGERS: Judge, may I approach the witness?
20 THE COURT: You may.
21 (Off-the-record discussion.)
22 BY MR. ROGERS:
23 Q I'm showing you, Dr. Flanagan, what I've marked as
24 State's Composite Exhibit A through G. without showing them
25 to the jury, can you look at them?The question as to all of
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 442
1 them is if they're fair and accurate depictions of what you
2 saw.
3 A Yes, they are.
4 MR. ROGERS: Judge, I would offer 12-A through G
5 into evidence at this time.
6 THE COURT: Any objection?
7 MR. WAY: No objection, Your Honor.
8 THE COURT: 12-A through G will be admitted.
9 (State's Exhibit Nos. 12-A through 12-G received in
10 evidence.)
11 MR. ROGERS: Permission to publish?
12 THE COURT: You may.
13 BY MR. ROGERS
14 Q Dr. Flannagan, I believe you have a laser pointer in
15 front of you.
16 A This it?
17 Q First,I want to show you whatTs been entered as
18 State's Exhibit 12-A. Can you tell the jury what this is?
19 A This was one of the initial photographs showing the
20 state of the remains with mud over it. what this is showing
21 is the shirt and how it was over the head. And that's
22 basically what kept all the bone fragments of the head
23 together, along with the pellets in the shot cup.
24 Q Moving on to 12-B. what is this?
25 A This was an x-ray of the remains in the area that
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 443
1 was shown on the previous photographs. This is the head where
2 extensive fractures and all of these small round dots, those
3 are the, the bird shot pellets.
4 Q Okay. Now, we don't see the shot cup in this x-ray,
5 right?
6 A No. It does not show up.
7 Q That's because it's plastic?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Okay. I'm showing you now what's entered as 12-c.
10 what is thisa photograph of?
11 A These were photographs taken of both -- it's
12 actuallythe forearms and the hands. And, like I said, each
13 hand wasstill in a glove. So this is -- I was able to lay it
14 out, suchas this, and take an x-ray.
15 Q On the left hand, what do you see?
16 A The --
17 Q Anything thatTs nonskeletal?
18 A Yes. There was a ring on his finger, on the left
19 hand.
20 Q showing you 12-D. is this a closeup of the left
21 hand?
22 A yeah. This is a closeup photograph of that x-ray to
23 show thering.
24 Q So the photograph of State's Exhibit 12-E, is this a
25 photographof the ring that was recovered?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER iii
1 A Yes. This is a photograph that I took after I
2 removed the ring from the glove.
3 Q This is StateTs Exhibit 12-F. what is this showing?
4 A This is a photograph of some of the bones after I
5 had washed them. And this is his mandible or his jaw. There
6 were some teeth that were loose. And then these -- the upper
7 jaw, the maxilla. And that was all fractured.
8 Q Can you show -- is the jaw fractured, as well?
9 A Yes. The jaw is in two pieces here. There's a
10 piece here that was -- I did not put in this photograph. But
11 this was just to show that there were fractures of the
12 mandible as well as the maxilla.
13 Q And that would be a fracture that's caused by
14 something outside of just regular decomposition?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Finally, this is State's Exhibit 12-G. what are we
17 looking at in this photograph?
18 A This is a photograph of the skull fragments that I
19 recovered from the head area, and these larger pieces are the,
20 the cranial cavity as far as the sides of the head and the top
21 and the back of the head. Those are larger pieces of bone.
22 And all of these smaller pieces were the fractured facial
23 bones.
24 Q Is it this photograph that would lead you to your
25 conclusion that he was shot in the face?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 445
1 A Yes.
2 (Off-the-record discussion.)
3 MR.ROGERS: Nothing further, Judge.
4 THECOURT: Cross.
5 MR.WAY: No cross, Your Honor.
6 THECOURT: Any juror have a question of this
7 witness?
8 (Noaudible response.)
9 THECOURT: All right. You can step down.
10 THEWITNESS: All right. Thank you.
11 THECOURT: Did -- I'm sorry. Did I hear something?
12 All right. You can step down.
13 Do we need to keep her further?
14 MR.ROGERS: No, your Honor.
15 THECOURT: Do you need her for any reason?
16 MR.WAY: No, Your Honor. Thank you.
17 THECOURT: All right. You're excused.
18 whydon't we take a break. Take 15 minutes. Either
19 side needanything?
20 MR.FUCHS: No, Your Honor.
21 MR.WAY: No, Your Honor.
22 (Jury exits; brief recess.)
23 THEBAILIFF: All rise. Court is back in session.
24 THECOURT: Let's have a jury, please.
25 THEBAILIFF: Yes, sir.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER ii.
1 (Jury enters.)
2 THE COURT: All right, If the witness would face
3 the clerk and be sworn, please. Right here.
4 Everybody else can be seated.
5 whereupon,
6 TIMOTHY LANGLAND
7 was called as a wttness, having been first duly sworn, was
8 examined and testfled as follows:
9 THE COURT: Have a seat and slide up to the
10 microphone, please, sir.
11 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
12 DIRECT EXAMINATION
13 BY MR. ROGERS
14 Q And, sir, can you please state and spell your name
15 for the court reporter?
16 A My name is Timothy J. Langland. That is spelled
17 L -A -N -G -L -A -N -D.
18 Q And, Mr. Langland, how are you currently employed?
19 A I'm associate general counsel and chief compliance
20 officer of Kansas City Life Insurance Company in Kansas City,
21 Missouri.
22 Q Okay. Can you give me a brief rundown of your, your
23 training and background before you got to that position?
24 A I have a juris doctorate law degree. i also hold
25 multiple insurance certifications, including a Chartered Life
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 447
1 underwriter, Fellow of the Life Management Institute, and I'm
2 a registered principal, which is a Series 24 in the securities
3 world. i have nearly 20 years of experience of working in the
4 insurance industry as an attorney and a compliance specialist.
5 Q All right. Also part of your job duties, you're a
6 custodianof records for Kansas City Life Insurance company;
7 is thatright?
8 A That is correct.
9 Q Okay. I want to talk to you about some records.
10 were youasked to prepare some records for this case, which is
11 the murderof Michael williams?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And those records, are they kept in the ordinary
14 courseof business?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And are they made with -- by someone that had
17 personalknowledge of the events?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And are they made at or near the time of those
20 eventshappening?
21 A They were.
22 MR. ROGERS: Judge, may I approach the witness?
23 THE COURT: You may.
24 BY MR.ROGERS:
25 Q Mr. Langland, I'm going to show you what I've marked
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER ii;
1 as State's Exhibit 13-A through 13-D. Are these the
2 records --
3 THECOURT: A through D,is that..
4 MR.HOBBS: D, as in dog. Yes, sir.
5 THECOURT: Okay.
6 BY MR. ROGERS:
7 Q Arethesepart of the records that were provided in
8 this case?
9 A Yes. The--
10 Q Andare thosefair and accurate depictions of the
11 records?
12 A Yes.
13 MR.ROGERS: Judge, I would offer State's Exhibit
14 13-A through 13-Dat this time.
15 THECOURT: Any objection?
16 MR.WAY: No objection, Your Honor.
17 THECOURT: They will be admitted.
18 (State'sExhibitNos. 13-A through 13-D received in
19 evidence.)
20 BY MR. ROGERS
21 Q Permissionto publish?
22 THECOURT: You may.
23 BY MR. ROGERS:
24 Q I'mgoingto first show you what's been marked as
25 13-A. What isthis?
VERONICAG. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER ii.
1 A That is an application for insurance.
2 Q You have a laser pointer here.
3 A Okay.
4 Q who was applying to get insured?
5 A Jerry williams.
6 Q what was the middle initial on that?
7 A Jerry M. Williams, sorry.
8 Q Okay. And did he tell -- say what his beneficiary
9 would bein this application?
10 A Yes. Denise M. Williams, his wife.
11 Q okay. I also see a line that says, contingent
12 beneficiary. what is a contingent beneficiary?
13 A contingent beneficiary is someone who would be the
14 primary beneficiaryshould the primary beneficiary, as
15 designatedon the application, pass away or disclaim their
16 proceeds.
17 Q was there any other primary beneficiary other than
18 Denise Williams?
19 A No.
20 (Off-the-record discussion.)
21 BY MR. ROGERS:
22 Q The contingent beneficiaries, what are their
23 relationshipto -- what is their relationship to Michael
24 williams?
25 A The father-in-law and mother-in-law.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 450
1 Q Now moving on to page 2. This is more -- does this
2 show whatamount of insurance which was applied for?
3 A Yes. One million dollars.
4 Q Then I'm looking on this -- on the third page of
5 this exhibit,in the evidence of insurability section, can you
6 point tothat for the jury?
7 A (Indicating.)
8 Q was there another insurance -- life insurance policy
9 that MikeWilliams had?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Was it supplied by Kansas City Life Insurance?
12 A Yes. The insurance amount on that face policy
13 listed thereis $250,000. It preceded the million -dollar
14 applicationthat we're looking at.
15 Q Are you aware -- we'll get to that in a minute.
16 THE COURT: Is all of this part of A or are these
17 partof the --
18 MR. FUCHS: This is part of A, Your Honor.
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 BY MR. ROGERS:
21 Q Then going on to page 4. Are -- what is this
22 showing?
23 A These are underwriting questions related to the
24 insured's-- I'm sorry. I can't quite see it there. I
25 believe relatedeither health and/or activities that they
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 451
1 undertake.
2 Q So it costs more to insure someone who goes
3 skydivingor --
4 A Correct.
5 Q -- has a dangerous job as opposed to --
6 A Or a bad health history.
7 Q Okay. And the moving on through the pages, this is
8 more ofthe health information?
9 A That's correct. Those are all health questions.
10 Q And going on to page 6, it's a civilian aviation
11 questionnaire.
12 A Yes. which was clearly left blank.
13 Q Okay. And then we skip to page 9. what were the
14 pages 7,8 -- 7 and 8 that -- had included?
15 A Those would have been further extraordinary activity
16 questionnaires,military service, things that certain
17 individualshave to fill out because either they are engaged
18 in thoseactivities or are member of the armed services. In
19 this case,clearly, Mr. williams was not. So those pages were
20 just notattached to the application.
21 Q Okay. So moving on to page 9 of the application,
22 can youtell the date that this application was filled out?
23 A Yes. It was April 18th of 2000.
24 Q Is that April 15th or 18th?
25 A Sorry. Yes, 15th.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 452
1 Q So April 15th of the year 2000?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And it contains Mike williams' signature?
4 A Yes.
5 Q who else has signed this document?
6 A The writing agent, Brian winchester.
7 Q i want to move on and show you what's been already
8 enteredinto evidence as State's 13-B. what is this?
9 A That is a claimant's statement. That is what -- the
10 form abeneficiary fills out when they are applying for the
11 proceedsafter an insurer dies.
12 Q Listed on this, is there multiple policies?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Can you point that out to the jury?
15 A Right here on this line, both of the policies with
16 KansasCity Life are listed.
17 Q And those policies correspond to the $1 million
18 applicationthat we just saw; is that right?
19 A Yes.
20 Q As well as the $250,000 policy, as well.
21 A Yes.
22 Q whose signatures do you see on this claimant's
23 statement?
24 A The beneficiary, Ms. Williams, signed here. And the
25 agent signedas witness on the second line.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 453
1 Q what date was that?
2 A It appears to be January 4th, 2001.
3 Q Are you aware if these claims were actually paid
4 after aninvestigation?
5 A Yes.
6 Q I'm going to show you what's been entered as StateTs
7 13-c. Letme see if I can get this to come in. what is this?
8 A That is a screen print from our policy
9 administrationsystem that would have been created at the time
10 the checkwas created to make the claim payment.
11 Q So when I make a claim on a life insurance, do I
12 just getthe face value of the policy, or is there something
13 additionalon top of that?
14 A Many states require that life insurance
15 companiespay claim interest in addition to the claim amount.
16 And in thiscase, in Florida, was such a state. So there was
17 interestthat was added to the amount.
18 Q what was the interest rate on this account?
19 A I believe it was eight in this claim.
20 Q okay. So what was the total amount of the check
21 that wascut in this case, for this policy?
22 A A little hard to read from up here but it --
23 THE COURT: You can hand it to him. Rather than
24 havehim guess.
25 THE WITNESS: Thank you. $264,521.55.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 454
1 BY MR. ROGERS:
2 Q And who was that check made out to?
3 A Denise Williams.
4 Q Now I'm showing you what's been entered as State's
5 Exhibit13-D. Again, what are we looking at here?
6 A It's the exact same document that we had on the
7 prior slide. This is simply on the million -dollar policy,
8 same exactdescription. It's a screen print from our policy
9 administrationsystem that would have been generated at the
10 time thecheck was cut.
11 MR. ROGERS: Judge, may I approach the witness?
12 THE COURT: You may.
13 BY MR.ROGERS:
14 Q what is the total amount of this check?
15 A One million dollars, six -- 6,200 -- 62,502.75.
16 Sorry.
17 THE COURT: Can we do that one more time, please?
18 THE WITNESS: yeah. $1,062,502.75.
19 BY MR.ROGERS:
20 Q And who was that check made out to?
21 A Also made out to Denise Williams.
22 Q How are insurance agents paid?
23 A On commission, mostly. Kansas City Life agents are
24 paid oncommission.
25 Q what type of commission is -- is it variable
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 455
1 depending on who the agent is?
2 A Yes.
3 Q what's a -- do you know specifically what Brian
4 winchester'scommission would have been?
5 A I do not know what his specific commission rate for
6 the saleof this policy was.
7 Q Are you aware of what a general range of commission
8 is?
9 A I would say in the industry it can average from
10 anywherefrom 80 percent to 120 percent of first year premium.
11 Q Are you aware, from looking at the records, what
12 first yearpremium was in this case?
13 A I believe it was $1600, approximately.
14 Q So it would have been anywhere between 80 and 120
15 percentof $1600?
16 A In that range, yes.
17 (Off-the-record discussion.)
18 MR. ROGERS: Nothing further, Your Honor.
19 THE COURT: Cross.
20 CROSS-EXAMINATION
21 BY MR. WAY:
22 Q Good afternoon, sir.
23 A Afternoon.
24 Q As it related to the -- was it the contingent
25 beneficiaries? The person who applies for the policy, they
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 456
1 pick who would be contingent beneficiaries, correct?
2 A Generally, yes.
3 Q And, in this particular case, Mr. williams selected
4 his mother and father-in-law, correct?
5 A I believe so.
6 Q You mentioned there was an investigation. In your
7 review of the record and in preparation of your testimony
8 today, did you learn there was a contestable death
9 investigation in this case?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And that contestable death investigation concluded
12 with the recommendation that the insurance monies should be
13 paid.
14 A That's correct.
15 Q Now, after the insurance monies were paid, did
16 Kansas City Life continue to receive information related to
17 the Mike williams' disappearance?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And from your review of the file and your
20 information, did Kansas City Life receive a official inquiry
21 from the State of Florida, Department of Insurance, in April
22 of 2002, indicating that there was a investigation being
23 opened by that agency?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And did you understand the Department of Insurance
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 457
1 letter to be a letter from a law enforcement agency?
2 A Yes.
3 THECOURT: Let's go, let's go to sidebar, please.
4 Let's have the court reporter, please.
5 (Sidebar discussion held.)
6 THECOURT: sorry to interrupt butIjust wanted to
7 make sure we -- if we're going to get into the insurance
8 fraud charges, then okay, if that's what you want to do.
9 But I don't want to accidentally stumble into -- going
10 into insurance fraud, the insurance fraud charges. So I
11 think we need to -- are you planing to get into that?
12 MR. WAY: No,Your Honor. I was actually done with
13 that question. Ijust wanted him --
14 THECOURT: Okay.
15 MR. WAY: -- to testify they did receive a letter in
16 2002. y next question will be: Did they receive
17 another letter from law enforcement in 2004? Yes. Done.
18 THECOURT: Okay. Well, we need to --Ijust want
19 to be careful if that's not where you -- what you want to
20 get into. I wouldn't say whether, you know, whether
21 we've opened a door at this point or not. But anyway, if
22 that's as far as you're going to take it, so be it. I
23 just put you on a heads -up. okay?
24 MR. WAY: Yes, sir.
25 (Sidebar discussion concludes.)
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm ready, Your Honor.
2 MR. WAY:
3 Q Mr. Longland [sic], did -- based on your review of
4 the records and the information, did your life insurance
5 company also receive a law enforcement inquiry in 2004?
6 A Yes.
7 MR. WAY: Nothing further, Your Honor.
8 THE COURT: Redirect?
9 MR. ROGERS: No, Your Honor.
10 THE COURT: All right. Any juror have questions of
11 this witness?
12 (No audible response.)
13 THE COURT: All right. You may step down. Do we
14 need to keep him any further?
15 MR. ROGERS: No, Your Honor.
16 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
17 THE COURT: All right. You're excused. Thank you
18 for being here.
19 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
20 (Witness exits.)
21 THE COURT: Call your next witness.
22 MR. ROGERS: State will call Chad Carpenter.
23 (Pause.)
24 THE COURT: Come on up here, please, sir. If you
25 would face the clerk here and raise your right hand,
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 459
1 please.
2 THE WITNESS: All right.
3 whereupon,
4 CHAD CARPENTER
5 was called as a wttness, having been first duly sworn, was
6 examined and testfled as follows:
7 THE COURT: Have a seat. Slide up to the
8 microphone, please, sir.
9 You may proceed.
10 DIRECT EXAMINATION
11 BY MR. ROGERS:
12 Q Sir, can you please state and spell your name?
13 A Chad Carpenter, C --
14 Q And spell your name. I'm sorry.
15 A All right. C -H -A -D, C -A -R -P -E -N -T -E -R.
16 Q Mr. Carpenter, how are you currently employed?
17 A I'm currently employed at Country Life as a claims
18 manager.
19 Q okay. Tell me a little bit about your employment
20 and educational background.
21 A I've been with Country Life, let's see, 16 years.
22 worked ten years prior to that at a different insurance
23 company. Educational background, I have earned an
24 undergraduate degree at Western Illinois University. And then
25 a master's degree at Northern Illinois University. And the --
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER A..
1 Q Okay.
2 A Sorry.
3 Q You're, you're currently working for Country Life
4 Insurance,right?
5 A Correct.
6 Q Are you aware of the name Cotton States Life
7 Insurance?
8 A Yes. Cotton States Life Insurance Company is a
9 companythat we purchased back in 2004.
10 Q Okay. Are you a custodian of records for Country
11 Life, aswell as now Cotton States?
12 A Yes. Country Life, I'm the custodial record keeper
13 for allof Country Life's claims, as well as policy stuff.
14 And thatwould include the Cotton States information that we
15 purchasedin 2004.
16 MR. ROGERS: Judge, may I approach?
17 THE COURT: You may.
18 BY MR. ROGERS:
19 Q I'm showing you what we've marked as State's Exhibit
20 14-A, B,C, and D. Are those part of the records that you
21 were requestedto provide in this case?
22 A Yes. we were requested to provide these records.
23 Q And they' re fai r and accu rate depi cti ons of those
24 records?
25 A Yes.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 461
1 MR. ROGERS: Judge, I would offer 14-A through 14-D,
2 asin dog, at this point.
3 THE COURT: Any objection?
4 MR. WAY: No objection, Your Honor.
5 THE COURT: They will be admitted.
6 (State's Exhibit Nos. 14-A through 14-D received in
7 evidence.)
8 MR. ROGERS: Permission to publish, Your Honor?
9 THE COURT: You may.
10 BY MR.ROGERS:
11 Q And, Mr. Carpenter, kind of -- just kind of walk
12 throughthis. I believe you have a laser pointer in front of
13 you. I'mgoing to show you what's been entered as 14-A at
14 this point. And what do you see in 14-A?
15 A That is Cotton States Life application. It was one
16 that waspro -- filled out to get the insurance.
17 Q And who filled out the -- who is the proposed
18 insuredin this case?
19 A Williams.
20 Q Michael williams?
21 A Mike williams. yeah, Michael Williams.
22 Q And how much was the face amount for this policy?
23 A The face amount was the 500,000.
24 Q Was there a beneficiary for this policy?
25 A Yes.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 462
1 Q And who is that beneficiary?
2 A Denise Williams.
3 Q Okay. And what was that relationship?
4 A wife.
5 Q And what was her birthday?
6 A 3/7 of '70.
7 Q All right. And, finally, on the last pageof
8 State'sExhibit 14-A, who is this signed by?
9 A I believe that's Mr. Williams' signature. And then
10 the agent'ssignature down there.
11 Q And who's the agent in this case?
12 A Stansel.
13 Q Okay. Looking at the date that this was filledout,
14 can youmake out what that date is, or, from the restof the
15 recordsthat you reviewed, are you aware of when thepolicy
16 was appliedfor?
17 A yeah. It looked like 3/27 of T01.
18 Q Going back through your records, though, isthat --
19 is it '01or is it actually 2000?
20 A Or it might have been 2000, if I remember,looking
21 at theinformation from the, the system log.
22 Q Okay.
23 A As well as Backpage.
24 Q So its fair to say that this was --
25 A That was --
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 463
1 Q -- applied for in --
2 A -- 2000.
3 Q -- March of 2000?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Now I'm showing you what's been entered as 14-B.
6 what isthis?
7 A That is Country Life -- or I'm sorry, Cotton States
8 claim form for a death.
9 Q Okay.
10 A So a beneficiary fills out the information to
11 start --initiate the claim.
12 Q Okay. And who is that filled out by?
13 A Signature is Denise williams.
14 Q And does it have a date?
15 A Yes. September 9th but it's cut off on that
16 version. September 19th.
17 Q okay. Now I'm showing you what's been entered as
18 14-C. what is this?
19 A That would have been the settlement letter that
20 Kathy Gray (phonetic) sent out when they sent the check for
21 the claim.
22 Q okay. what was the total amount of the check?
23 A It's hard to read from here but it's five --
24 MR. ROGERS: May I approach the witness, Judge?
25 THE COURT: Please do.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER isA
1 THE WITNESS: yeah. The amount was $504,453.46.
2 BY MR. ROGERS:
3 Q That's greater than the face amount of the policy.
4 Why is that?
5 A That would have been due to the interest, just
6 additional interest proceeds play -- paid on it.
7 Q And then I'm showing you what's been entered as
8 State's Exhibit 14-D. What is this a copy of?
9 A That would have been a copy of the check when it
10 was -- after it was cashed. So it would have been our actual
11 check payment and then endorsement side.
12 Q And who is that check made out to?
13 A Denise Williams.
14 (Off-the-record discussion.)
15 MR. ROGERS: Nothing further, Your Honor.
16 THE COURT: Cross.
17 MR. WAY: No cross, Your Honor.
18 THE COURT: All right. Any juror have a question of
19 this witness? All right, If not, you may step down. Do
20 we need to keep him any further?
21 MR. ROGERS: No, Your Honor.
22 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: All right. You're excused. Thank you
24 for being here. Free to go.
25 (Witness exits.)
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 465
1 THE COURT: Call your next witness.
2 MR. ROGERS:
3 (Pause.)
4 THE CLERK: If you'll raise your right hand.
5 whereupon,
6 WILLIAM MICKLER
7 was called as a wttness, having been first duly sworn, was
8 examined and testfed as follows:
9 THE COURT: You may proceed.
10 DIRECT EXAMINATION
11 BY MR. FUCHS:
12 Q Good afternoon, sir.
13 A Good afternoon.
14 Q Can you please introduce yourself to the jurors?
15 A My name is William Mickler.
16 Q And, Mr. Mickler, are you employed?
17 A lam.
18 Q where are you employed at?
19 A I'm employed by the Florida Department of Law
20 Enforcement.
21 Q what do you do for the Florida Department of Law
22 Enforcement?
23 A I'm currently a special agent and supervisor
24 assigned to the Office of Statewide intelligence.
25 Q what does that mean?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER A..
1 A I supervise the domestic security intelligence
2 componentof 051, as well as the cyber intelligence component
3 of 051.
4 Q How long have you been in that position?
5 A Since October.
6 Q of this year?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q Prior to that position, what was your assignment at
9 FloridaDepartment of Law -- or were you working at Florida
10 Departmentof Law Enforcement?
11 A Iwas.
12 Q What was your capacity at that point?
13 A I was a special agent assigned to the violent crimes
14 squad withinthe Tallahassee Regional operations Center.
15 Q And what does that mean?
16 A That means that I was sent to investigate violent
17 crimes,person crimes, crimes against children.
18 Q How long have you been with the Florida Department
19 of LawEnforcement?
20 A Five years.
21 Q Do you have any prior law enforcement experience --
22 A Yes --
23 Q -- than that?
24 A -- sir. Yes, sir,I do.
25 Q what is that?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 467
1 A I spent just under six years with the Kissimmee
2 policeDepartment in Kissimee, Florida.
3 Q okay. So all in all we're talking about 12 years?
4 A Ten years, sir.
5 Q Ten years. Okay. My math -- that's why I'm a
6 lawyer. I can't do math. In your capacity at the Florida
7 Departmentof Law Enforcement, as a special agent
8 investigator,did you have occasion to become involved in the
9 investigationregarding the disappearance turned into a murder
10 of Mikewilliams?
11 A Yes, I did.
12 Q How did you become initially involved?
13 A I was brought onto the investigative team, because I
14 was onthe violent crimes squad.
15 Q when was that?
16 A Probably would have been 2015, 2016, sometime in
17 there.
18 Q okay. was your involvement in the investigation
19 prior toMr. winchesterTs arrest for the kidnapping of Denise
20 williams?
21 A I'm sorry. say that again.
22 Q were you on the team prior to winchesterTs arrest
23 for thekidnapping of Denise williams?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q okay. So you were on the team at that particular
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 time, correct?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q Okay. At some point law enforcement, through the
4 State Attorney'sOffice, as well as involvement with the
5 FloridaDepartment of Law Enforcement, conducted a proffer
6 agree --proffer statement with Mr. Winchester, correct?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q And were you involved in that?
9 A Iwas.
10 Q where were you -- how were you involved in that?
11 A I was able to monitor the proffer as it was going
12 on.
13 Q And it's my understanding that you had been in
14 communicationwith the state attorney investigator, Jason
15 Newlin,correct?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q Following that statement, did you have further
18 involvementon that day?
19 A i did.
20 Q Okay. And what was that?
21 A we went out to an undeveloped area off of Gardner
22 Road thatdeaded into Carr Lake.
23 Q Okay. And my understanding is there are other --
24 anotherFlorida Department of Law Enforcement investigator
25 involvedat that particular time, too.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER A..
1 A There was.
2 Q who was that?
3 A It was Special Agent Mike Devaney.
4 Q Okay. And following -- why was that you went to the
5 Gardner Road area?
6 A Because Mr. Winchester indicated that he would take
7 the investigators out to where the body of Mike Williams was
8 disposed.
9 Q Once he took every -- law enforcement out to that
10 location, did you and Mr. -- Agent Devaney assume a role in
11 making sure that that body was searched for at that location?
12 A we did.
13 Q How was it that you went about going to do that?
14 A I authored a search warrant for the area. And then
15 we coordinated, ensuring the right amount of personnel and,
16 and property that would be needed to forensically excavate the
17 area and find human remains.
18 Q why a search warrant for just an area off Carr Road?
19 A Because the condition of the, of the land. It would
20 have required the removal of dirt and trees and other, other
21 items of vegetation that could -- we could have been bound by
22 different rules and regulations in the removal of those, those
23 things without a search warrant.
24 Q Fair to say that the, the search for Mr. Williams'
25 remains was a very unique situation?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 470
1 A Itwas.
2 Q DonTt normally have to do -- and we've already had
3 ward Schwoob. You know who he is, correct?
4 A Ido.
5 Q And who was he involved in your investigation?
6 A He's the crime scene analyst supervisor over the
7 crime scene unit.
8 Q DonTt normally have to do coffer dams. Don't
9 normally have to use excavators and things of that nature,
10 correct?
11 A I've never been involved in that before.
12 Q okay. And itTs my understanding that the remains
13 were identified as Mr. williams, correct?
14 A Correct.
15 Q At that point, the investigation takes on a
16 different -- based upon the identification determination, it
17 was in fact a homicide -- as well as statements of
18 Mr. Winchester. It takes on a different role from the
19 suspicious persons and moved into a murder investigation; is
20 that correct?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q At some point did Florida Department of Law
23 Enforcement attempt to do a -- I think you referred to it as a
24 bump with Denise Winchest -- or Denise Williams.
25 A we did.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 471
1 Q what is that?
2 A A bump is a controlled contact between either a
3 confidential source or a undercover agent that's acting -- or
4 agent that's in an undercover capacity in order to try to
5 contact a person.
6 Q Okay. And what would be the purpose of doing that?
7 A To elicit contact or information from the person
8 that is, that is bumped.
9 Q Okay. In this situation, how did you go about doing
10 so?
11 A Another special agent was under the undercover role
12 of someone named Chuck. And he went to Ms. Williams' place of
13 employment and bumped into her in the parking lot.
14 Q Okay. And were you able to glean any information or
15 did it -- I guess, did it work?
16 A No.
17 Q Okay. what happened?
18 A Agent Greene approached Ms. Williams and initially
19 said something to her to the effect of, my name is Chuck and I
20 served time in the -- in the jail with Mike. At that point,
21 Ms. Williams screamed, get away from me and proceeded to the
22 building where she worked.
23 Q Okay. And then she, in fact, called law
24 enforcement, Florida State university police Department.
25 A I was told she did. Yes.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 472
1 Q Okay. Based upon that, did you have to take steps
2 to keep Florida Department of Law -- I mean, Florida State
3 University Police Department from investigating your agent?
4 A wedid.
5 Q okay. what was that?
6 A I contacted Sergeant wooten, who was the Sergeant
7 over investigations at FSUPD and advised him that we would be
8 in their jurisdiction and what we were going to be doing.
9 Q Okay. Fair to say this is a,I guess, a close -kept
10 secret of what you're doing?The more people know, the -- it
11 may not work, correct?
12 A Correct.
13 Q And it didn't work, actually, after all.
14 A Correct.
15 Q Did sergeant wooten with the Florida State
16 University police Department assume a role as if he was the
17 lead investigator for Florida State University police
18 Department towards Ms. williams?
19 A Initially, yes.
20 Q You say initially. Did something change?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Okay. what changed?
23 A we later instructed sergeant wooten to advise
24 Ms. Williams to -- that Florida Department of Law Enforcement
25 was going to take lead on this investigation because of our
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 473
1 ability to exploit telephone records and, and different things
2 and our cyber capabilities.
3 Q up to that point, is it your understanding that
4 Ms. williams was in direct contact and constant contact with
5 sergeant wooten at the FSU Police Department?
6 A That's my understanding.
7 Q Former to be -- after she had been told that Florida
8 Department of Law Enforcement is taking over the
9 investigation, did you attempt to reach out and talk to
10 Ms. williams?
11 A Idid.
12 Q Did she respond to your communications?
13 A No, sir.
14 Q Did she return any of your phone calls?
15 A No, sir.
16 Q Did she reach out and call you?
17 A No, sir.
18 Q Text you?
19 A No, sir.
20 Q Any communication at all with her?
21 A I did have communication with her the -- I believe
22 aroundthe 18th of December, 2017, when I reached out and
23 calledher and, and we spoke.
24 Q Okay. And that was the nature of that?
25 A That I would like to sit down and talk to her
VERONICAG. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 474
1 regarding the incident that happened at FSU.
2 Q okay. But up to that point, no communication,
3 correct?
4 A No, sir.
5 Q And it's my understanding that would be about the
6 same timeyou informed her of Mike Williams being deceased in
7 a murder?
8 A That was several days later.
9 Q At some point did Florida Department of Law
10 Enforcement recruit a -- what would have been, at that time, a
11 confidential source?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q And who was that?
14 A Kathy Thomas.
15 Q Who is Kathy Thomas?
16 A The former spouse of Brian Winchester.
17 Q okay. So formerly Ms. Kathy Winchester?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q what was the intention of recruiting Ms. Thomas?
20 A She was still in regular communication with
21 Ms. williams, and she had a very vast understanding of the
22 relationships between all the parties involved.
23 Q okay. In recruiting her as a source, did Florida
24 State univer -- I mean, did Florida Department of Law
25 Enforcement take any steps to try and do a recording,
VERONICAG. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 475
1 controlled calls, if you will?
2 A wedid.
3 Q what is a controlled call?
4 A controlled call is where the source is given
5 parametersor directions as to what should be discussed. And
6 the call isrecorded.
7 Q when you say given parameters about what should be
8 discussed,what does that mean?
9 A That means that law enforcement says, this is the
10 information that we're looking to glean from this call. These
11 are the thingsyou can say. These are the things that you
12 cannot do.
13 Q when you say these are things you can do and can't
14 do, what,what are we talking about?
15 A where there's any type of promises made to the
16 person orany type of information that, that we would not want
17 to get outto the public.
18 Q Okay. Did you take those steps with Ms. Thomas?
19 A we did.
20 Q Did you help her,I guess, for lack of a better
21 term, writea script or talk about -- come up with the things
22 that weregoing to need to be said in order to try and get a
23 controlledcommunication?
24 A we did.
25 Q Okay. And, to your knowledge, was she able to get a
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 476
1 controlled conversation with Ms. Denise williams?
2 A she was.
3 Q Now, in order to control a conversation, is there
4 anything that is done by Florida Department of Law Enforcement
5 in order to record those communications?
6 A There is.
7 Q How do you go about that?
8 A There -- a recorder was provided to Ms. Thomas that
9 had a microphone that is placed in the, the ear of the person
10 making the call. So that way the micro -- it's a two-way
11 microphone. It picks up not only what's being said over the
12 telephone but what's being said by the person in possession of
13 that recording.
14 Q okay. Now, it's my understanding that Ms. Thomas
15 did not reside in Leon county at that particular time.
16 A That is correct.
17 Q So how is it that you're able to provide this
18 equipment and get the recording and things of that nature?
19 A She was in Tallahassee, and so it was provided to
20 her when she was here.
21 Q Okay. And there was, in fact, a recording, probably
22 more than one, over that time period, correct?
23 A There was.
24 Q And how is it that you were able to secure that
25 actual recording?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 477
1 A Ms. Thomas sent it back.
2 Q Via how?
3 A The US Mail.
4 Q Okay. So she mailed it back to you?
5 A Yes.
6 Q The device records how? Is it a USB port? I
7 mean...
8 A It -- it's a digital recorder. So the recording is
9 retrievedthrough a USB port and then onto a computer.
10 Q So when you say she sent it back, she sent you the
11 entire recorder back?
12 A She did.
13 Q Okay. Not just a file or something along those
14 lines?
15 A Correct.
16 Q During the time frame in which she was the source in
17 doing these communications, did you maintain contact with her?
18 A i did.
19 Q Okay. Phone calls, text messages, things along
20 those lines.
21 A That's correct.
22 MR. FUCHS: One moment.
23 (Off-the-record discussion.)
24 MR. FUCHS: No further questions.
25 THE COURT: Cross.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER p1
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. WAY:
3 Q Good afternoon, Agent Mickler.
4 A Good afternoon, sir.
5 Q All right. I need some help understanding this.
6 You were -- let's talk about time line. Were you aware that
7 Ms. Williams was the victim of an armed kidnapping on August
8 5th, 2016?
9 A Iwas.
10 Q And are you aware that during the course of that
11 investigation into the armed kidnapping of Brian Winchester
12 that Special Agent Devaney had actually gone and spoken with
13 Ms. Williams at the Leon county jail?
14 A I'm not aware if he spoke with her at the jail. No,
15 sir.
16 Q Did you ever review or have any reference to any
17 communications that Agent Devaney had with Ms. Williams on
18 August 5th, 2016?
19 A He spoke with her at the Sheriff's Office, if thatTs
20 what you're referring to.
21 Q yeah, the Sheriff's Office.
22 A Yes, sir. I was aware that he spoke to her there.
23 Q You were just aware -- were you present for the
24 conversation or --
25 A No, sir.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 479
1 Q Did you review it later on video or audio or
2 anythingof that nature?
3 A No, sir.
4 Q He just kind of filled you in on what happened.
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q Okay. That was approximately 14 months before we --
7 you triedthis thing called the bump, correct?
8 A Correct.
9 Q Okay. And at this point in time, in October of
10 2017, Ms.Williams is still the victim in the aggravated -- or
11 I'm sorry,not aggravated but the armed kidnapping, and
12 Mr. BrianWinchester is yet to be sentenced; is that your
13 understanding?
14 A That's my understanding.
15 Q And in October -- on October 9th of 2017,
16 Mr. Winchestergives his first statement to law enforcement as
17 it relate-- under that proffer agreement, correct?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q And that proffer agreement is really an immunity
20 deal. He'snot going to be charged, based on what he says,
21 with themurder of Mike Williams.
22 A That was my understanding.
23 Q And you were not in the room for that interview.
24 You watchedremotely?
25 A Yes, sir.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 Q And in that proffer -- in that, I guess, immunity
2 interview,Mr. winchester admitted that he killed Denise
3 williams'husband, Mike williams.
4 A Yes, sir. That's correct.
5 Q So you know she's a widow and you now know, based on
6 his ownadmission, who her husband's killer is.
7 A Correct.
8 Q And thereafter, the Florida Department of Law
9 Enforcementsets up this undercover bump scenario.
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q And you're going to utilize subterfuge and have
12 agentspretend to be people to approach her in a parking lot
13 at herwork.
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q And when that person approached her, it scared her
16 and sheran into her place of employment.
17 A Is that a question?
18 Q Yes.
19 A Yes, she did.
20 Q So, basically, this person approaches her, she
21 screams,she runs inside.
22 A Correct.
23 Q And thereafter starts this chain of events where law
24 enforcementhas to, essentially, misrepresent to Ms. williams
25 what actuallyhappened to her in the parking lot of her own
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 place of employment; isn't that correct?
2 A I'm not sure how they were representing to her -- or
3 representedto her, sir. I didn't speak with her.
4 Q well, you had spoken with Sergeant Wooten at FSU
5 policeDepartment, correct?
6 A i did.
7 Q was sergeant wooten instructed that if he was to
8 receive-- or if FSU Police Department was to receive a call
9 that Ms.Williams was approached by a strange man at her
10 parkinglot at that university, was sergeant Wooten instructed
11 to tellher the truth and say, well, that was just an
12 investigativetechnique?
13 A No, sir.
14 Q He was instructed to treat it like it was a real
15 threatto her and initiate an investigation.
16 A He was told that he would be the, the lead
17 investigatoron it.
18 Q The lead investigator into a nonexistent crime.
19 A Correct.
20 Q Basically to lie to her.
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q Now, thereafter -- or were you made aware that in
23 a -- asits relate to that bump, that lie to her on that day
24 at theFSU -- at her office, were you aware that she had
25 actuallyalso spoken to Kathy Thomas that day, as well?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 A I don't remember that.
2 Q But Ms. williams spoke with Ms. Thomas quite
3 frequently, didn't she?
4 A It's my understanding. Yes, sir.
5 Q And, to some extent, almost daily.
6 A That's my understanding.
7 Q And when you received back the digital tape recorder
8 with allthe information on it, there were a lot of phone
9 calls, weren't there?
10 A No, sir.
11 Q She only recorded -- how many phone calls did she
12 record?
13 A she recorded one call with Ms. Williams.
14 Q She didn't record all of her calls with
15 Ms. Williams?
16 A No, sir.
17 Q Do you know how many calls Ms. Thomas may have had
18 with Ms.Williams in your time frame of the investigation?
19 A Idonot.
20 Q Approximately how long was the time frame of your
21 investigation as relates to this recording scenario?
22 A It started in -- sometime in mid January, I would, I
23 would guess into February.
24 Q This --
25 THE COURT: What year are we talking about?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 2018.
2 MR. WAY:
3 Q was less than a month or was it, perhaps, a month or
4 perhaps over a month?
5 A Approximately a month. Maybe a month and a half.
6 Q Going back to this bump, as you call it, at the --
7 at Florida State university, was there a note that was placed
8 on Ms. williams' car?
9 A There was.
10 Q And did Ms. Williams turn that note into law
11 enforcement immediately?
12 A My understanding is she did.
13 Q And that note was authored by FDLE?
14 A It was authored by an agent. Yes.
15 Q It was a setup. It was a fictitious letter that was
16 written with the efforts to try to facilitate something out of
17 this bump, wasn't it?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q At the time that you -- whose idea was it to do the
20 bump?
21 A It would have -- the investigative team in a
22 brainstorming session. I don't know who actually came up with
23 the actual idea.
24 Q Did anyone give any thought to the idea that
25 approaching a woman whoTd been kidnapped at gunpoint less than
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER i;i
1 a year before, approaching her in a menacing manner at her
2 place of employment, was a pretty cruel thing to try to do?
3 A I don't believe the approach was menacing. But that
4 was not considered. No, sir.
5 Q Just didn't think about how she would react to what
6 you were doing?
7 A No, sir.
8 MR. WAY: Nothing further, Your Honor.
9 THE COURT: Redirect.
10 CROSS-EXAMINATION
11 BY MR. FUCHS:
12 Q Investigator Mickler, it's my understanding that
13 when Mr. -- Agent Devaney met with Ms. Williams that he made
14 it clear that Florida Department of Law Enforcement was
15 investigating the disappearance of Mike Williams, correct?
16 A That's my understanding.
17 Q And then throughout the course of this bump and
18 following this bump, she was maintaining constant informa --
19 constant contact with Florida Department -- with FSU police
20 Department, correct?
21 A That's my understanding. Yes, sir.
22 Q And as soon as she found out that Florida Department
23 of Law Enforcement was assuming the investigation, she stopped
24 communication; did she not?
25 A With me, yes.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 MR. FUCHS: No further questions.
2 THE COURT: All right. Any juror havea question of
3 this witness?
4 All right. You can step down.
5 Call your next.
6 (witness exits.)
7 MR. ROGERS: The state calls SergeantWooten.
8 (Pause.)
9 THE COURT: All right, If youTd facethe clerk and
10 be sworn, please, sir.
11 THE CLERK: Raise your right hand.
12 whereupon,
13 RICHARD WOOTEN
14 was called as a wttness, having been first dulysworn, was
15 examined and testfed as follows:
16 THE COURT: You may proceed.
17 DIRECT EXAMINATION
18 BY MR. ROGERS:
19 Q All right, sir, can you please state and spell your
20 name for the record?
21 A Sergeant Richard wooten, w -O -O -T -E -N.
22 Q All right. And Sergeant, how are youcurrently
23 employed?
24 A FSU police Department.
25 Q And how long have you been in law enforcement?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURTREPORTER 1 A Fifteen and a half years, just over.
2 Q Has all that time been with FSU?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q All right. Tell the jury a little bit about what
5 your duties are as a sergeant.
6 A So I'm a sergeant of the investigative unit. I
7 oversee the day-to-day operations of investigations. And I
8 also carry a caseload.
9 Q Okay. I want to bring you to a case against Denise
10 williams. were you contacted by the Florida Department of Law
11 Enforcement in reference to this case?
12 A Yes, sir,I was.
13 Q All right. And were you essentially read into the
14 case at that point?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q what was explained to you that was going to happen?
17 A So they basically asked me -- they were telling me
18 that they were going to come on our campus. And they
19 basically said that they were going to reach out to
20 Ms. Williams on, on our campus. And, and they wanted us to
21 know. And, and from that point I was going to take over if
22 they called law -- if she called law enforcement, I was going
23 to take over the investigation.
24 Q when you say reach out, they were reaching out in an
25 undercover capacity; is that your understanding?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q And did you eventually get a call to start
3 investigatingwho reached out to Denise williams?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q All right. Did you ever speak with Denise williams?
6 A Yes, sir,I did.
7 Q Okay. Now, did you speak with her, initially? were
8 you the initialresponding officer?
9 A Iwasnot.
10 Q It was another one of FSU's patrol officers?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q okay. At some time -- point later, you took over
13 that investigation?
14 A That is correct.
15 Q why did you take over the investigation?
16 A Because I had knowledge of it and -- so they were,
17 they werebasically telling me how I was going to handle the
18 situation.
19 Q Okay. How many times would you say you had contact
20 with Denisewilliams?
21 A I'm not sure of exact number but several.
22 Q All right, would you describe her as cooperative?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q Can you explain that to the jury in a little bit
25 more detail?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 A So when I called her, she called me back. And she
2 would reach out to me on a daily -- you know, on -- you know,
3 routinely trying to get an update on the case. And, you know,
4 asking what we've done and that sort of thing.
5 Q okay. So sometimes she would call you; is that
6 fair?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q And sometimes you would call her?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q And was she concerned about the case?
11 A Absolutely.
12 Q was she, in your opinion, interested in getting to
13 the bottom of it?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q Did she ask about specific types of evidence that
16 could be collected?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q what type of evidence was she interested in finding?
19 A she wouldn't -- you know, anything that we could do
20 to try to figure out who the person was that approached her in
21 the parking lot.
22 Q okay. At some point did you inform her that the
23 investigation -- that you would like her to reach out to
24 someone else?
25 A I,I was instructed to connect her with FDLE. And,
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER i;s
1 and that's what I did.
2 Q And how did you do that with her?
3 A I can't remember exactly if, if I told her to con --
4 I believeI told her that the FDLE cyber crimes people would
5 be in touchwith them, and, and at that point they were going
6 to handlefrom there, because that's more their expertise.
7 Q So you put her into communication with Florida
8 Departmentof Law Enforcement.
9 A That is correct. I opened up the communication line
10 with them.
11 Q Did you give her a name of the Florida Department of
12 Law Enforcementagent that would be contacting her?
13 A I believe it was Special Agent Mickler.
14 Q Mickler?
15 A Mickler, Mickler. Sorry.
16 Q During your time of investigating this, this bump,
17 did you everhave trouble communicating with Denise williams?
18 A No, sir.
19 MR. FUCHS: Nothing further.
20 THE COURT: Cross.
21 CROSS-EXAMINATION
22 BY MR. WAY:
23 Q Good afternoon, Sergeant wooten.
24 A Hey. Good afternoon.
25 Q You're a likeable guy, aren't you?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER A..
1 A I hope so.
2 Q And when you had interactions with Ms. Williams,
3 were yourespectful?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q Did you seem concerned about her situation, about
6 having beenapproached on the FSU campus by, by a stranger?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q And she seemed genuinely scared and concerned about
9 what happenedto her?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q But during this time, of course, you knew that was,
12 that wasa lie. You knew that had just been some kind of
13 investigativesetup by FDLE.
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q But, but you continued to -- I want to say play
16 along andtalk with her and she talked with you?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q And no, no problems, no difficulty at all?
19 A with her -- communicating with her?
20 Q Yes, sir.
21 A No, sir.
22 Q You think that you and her had established a
23 rapport?
24 A I believe so.
25 Q The investigation, when you turned it over to FDLE,
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 491
1 did you tell her exactly why it was being turned over to FDLE?
2 A Again,I don't remember exactly what I said verbatim
3 but is-- I,I turned it over to the cyber unit at FDLE,
4 becauseit's more of their specialty.
5 Q But really you were directed to try to get her in
6 contactwith Agent Mickler, correct?
7 A I was,i was trying to get them connected so they
8 would,they would communicate.
9 Q Agent Mickler was not with the cyber crime division,
10 was he?
11 A No, sir.
12 MR. WAY: Nothing further, Your Honor.
13 THE COURT: Redirect?
14 MR. ROGERS: Nothing further, Judge.
15 THE COURT: All right. Any juror have a question of
16 thiswitness?
17 (No audible response.)
18 THE COURT: All right. You can step down.
19 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
20 THE COURT: Do we need to keep him any further?
21 MR. FUCHS: No, Your Honor.
22 THE COURT: Do you need him for any reason?
23 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
24 THE COURT: You're excused.
25 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 492
1 THE COURT: Thank you for being here.
2 Call your next witness.
3 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, the State would request the
4 afternoon break right now, if you don't mind.
5 THE COURT: All right. we're about due for that.
6 we'll take 15 minutes.
7 MR. FUCHS: Thank you.
8 (Jury exits.)
9 THE COURT: Either side need anything?
10 MR. FUCHS: No, Your Honor.
11 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
12 THE COURT: Okay.
13 (Brief recess.)
14 THE BAILIFF: All rise. Court is back in session.
15 THE COURT: Let's have a jury, please.
16 THE BAILIFF: Yes, sir.
17 (Jury enters.)
18 THE COURT: Everybody be seated.
19 Ma'am, if you would stand, please, and face the
20 clerk. Raise your right hand.
21 whereupon,
22 JOANI SCANDONE CHASE
23 was called as a witness, having been first duly sworn, was
24 examined and testfed as follows:
25 DIRECT EXAMINATION
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 493
1 BY MR. FUCHS:
2 Q Good afternoon.
3 A Good afternoon.
4 Q Can you please introduce yourself to the jurors?
5 A My name is Joani Scandone Chase. And I am a retired
6 TallahasseePolice officer.
7 Q Can you please spell your first, middle, and last
8 name forMadam Reporter?
9 A Absolutely. J -O -A -N -I, S -C -A -N -D -O -N -E, C -H -A -S -E.
10 Q Okay. And you said you're a retired Tallahassee
11 policeofficer.
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q How long were you with Tallahassee police
14 Department?
15 A A little over 24 years when I retired.
16 Q And when did you retire?
17 A Five years ago.
18 Q Okay. By my calculations, that means you were
19 workingback in December of 1999.
20 A Yes, sir,I was.
21 Q what were your duties back then?
22 A I had -- I was working road patrol in the northeast
23 part ofTallahassee.
24 Q what does that mean?
25 A I had a squad -- I was a sergeant, and I had a squad
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER AlA
1 of officers. And we took all calls for service and did
2 proactivepatrol, you know, looking for things that seemed out
3 of placeor, or traffic violations during our shift.
4 Q Okay. And would that mean you're a uniformed
5 officer ina marked unit?
6 A Yes,Iam.
7 Q just like the Tallahassee police cars that we see
8 out thereevery day?
9 A Yes. But older.
10 Q Yeah. A little bit older and a different paint
11 scheme, maybeeven.
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q Okay. Back in December of 1999, did you have an
14 occasionto run across a larger Suv in the parking lot of the
15 Grace LutheranChurch off Miccosukee Road?
16 A Yes, sir,I did.
17 Q It was a long time ago. why would that stand out to
18 you?
19 A Just the totality. Initially, when I arrived there,
20 i thoughtthat perhaps it was a stolen vehicle, because that
21 was a crimetrend at that time. And it had a baby car seat.
22 And therewas no other car in the church. And it was a little
23 later inthe evening.
24 So I ran the tag and asked our dispatch officers to
25 identifyif it was a stolen vehicle. They indicated it was
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 495
1 not. And then they were able to give me a phone number for
2 the registered owner.
3 Q Okay. You said you ran the tag. I'm -- do you
4 remember what that tag was at this time?
5 A I don't remember it off the top of my head. And the
6 dispatch report for that time, they're purged after, like,
7 three years.
8 Q Okay. So going back and finding out exactly what
9 that information was, at this point, you attempted but can't
10 get it; is that correct?
11 A That is correct.
12 Q You do say you remember calling someone and talking
13 to them?
14 A Yes, sir,I do.
15 Q what do you remember about that?
16 A I remember calling and a female answered. And I
17 asked if they owned the vehicle. I gave a description of it.
18 I gave the tag number.
19 Q Let me stop you right there. what was the
20 description you gave?
21 A A larger suv that had had a baby car seat in it and
22 where it was parked. I can't remember the exact color at this
23 point.
24 Q Okay. Do you remember the type of vehicle it was,
25 other than a large Suv?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER A..
1 A No. I just remember that it was a large Suv.
2 Q okay. So you called that particular person, the
3 phone numberyou got?
4 A Yes, sir,I did. And they indicated that, yes, that
5 was theirvehicle and that her husband had that vehicle and
6 was at aout-of-state hunting trip.
7 Q okay.
8 A And it should not be there is what she said to me.
9 Q Okay. Did you take any further action on that
10 vehicle atthat time?
11 A No,I did not. She -- I did get a call back at some
12 point andwas told -- and I can't remember from who -- that,
13 in fact,a family member, I think a father, had gone to the
14 church andthe vehicle was no longer there. And I also spoke
15 with thisfather in the lobby of the Tallahassee police
16 Department. He was trying to be specific about that he was at
17 the rightplace looking for it.
18 Q Do you remember any of their names at this time?
19 A I do not remember names at this point. No, sir.
20 Q Okay.
21 MR. FUCHS: Thank you very much.
22 THE COURT: Cross?
23 MR. WAY: No cross.
24 THE COURT: All right. Any juror have a question of
25 thiswitness?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 497
1 (No audible response.)
2 THECOURT: Allright. You can step down. Thank
3 you for being here.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
5 THECOURT: Dowe need to keep her any further?
6 MR.FUCHS: No, Your Honor.
7 THECOURT: Allright. You're excused.
8 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
9 (Witness exits.)
10 THECOURT: Call your next witness.
11 MR.FUCHS: Yes, Your Honor.
12 (Pause.)
13 THECOURT: If you'd face the clerk and be sworn,
14 please, sir.
15 whereupon,
16 WILLIAM NICK WILLIAMS
17 was called as a wttness, having been first duly sworn, was
18 examined and testfed as follows:
19 THECOURT: Have a seat and slide up to the
20 microphone, please, sir.
21 You may proceed.
22 MR.FUCHS: Thank you, Your Honor.
23 DIRECT EXAMINATION
24 BY MR.FUCHS:
25 Q Good afternoon, sir.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER is;
1 A Good afternoon.
2 Q Can you slide that microphoneback just a little
3 bit? It'skind of loud. There you go.
4 A Okay.
5 Q Could you please introduce yourselfto the jurors?
6 A Name is william Nick williams,here in Tallahassee,
7 Florida.
8 Q And what do you go by?
9 A Nick williams.
10 Q And, Mr. williams, you are, infact, Mike WilliamsT
11 brother;are you not?
12 A Yes, I am.
13 Q Okay. Fair to say tough to behere today?
14 A Very.
15 Q A lot of emotions?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Anger.
18 A A little bit. Mostly sadness. Just missing him all
19 the time.
20 Q A little nervous, too?
21 A Very.
22 Q You know why we're here.
23 A Yes.
24 Q Mike went missing back in Decemberof 2000.
25 A Correct.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER A..
1 Q And was later determined to be a murder.
2 A Yes.
3 Q Your mom is Cheryl Williams, correct?
4 A Correct.
5 Q Initially, that investigation was for a missing
6 personsthat he possibly was missing on Lake Seminole and
7 maybe eveneaten by alligators, correct?
8 A Correct.
9 Q Did your mom ever believe that?
10 A No. she never really believed that. She just had a
11 feelingthat's not what happened.
12 Q Did she take steps in order to try and get
13 investigationshappening?
14 A Yes, she did.
15 Q what kind of steps did she take?
16 A She wrote letters to the governor, starting at that
17 point,and the next few governors. She contacted FDLE about
18 doing aninvestigation. She held up billboards at different
19 places-- or held up posters, put billboards up, paid for
20 billboards,you know, have you seen my son? Just anything to
21 get hisname out there to try to get some attention to what
22 had happened.
23 Q Did you, in fact, help her out with some of those
24 things,if not all?
25 A Yes. I did whenever I could. But she was kind of a
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 500
1 leading effort behind it.
2 Q And, of course,over the years, there's actually
3 been TV shows.
4 A Yes.
5 Q obviously, she wassuccessful because we're here
6 today,correct?
7 A Yes. Very.
8 Q During this timeperiod, did Denise say anything to
9 you about you and your mother,about your actions in trying to
10 get aninvestigation?
11 A Yes, she did.
12 Q One time or morethan once?
13 A Two distinct occasions.
14 Q Let's talk aboutthe first one.
15 A (Nods head.)
16 Q The first time,where were you and when was it?
17 A About six monthsafter Mike disappeared. So it was
18 summerof 2001. we got acall. She was not happy. She
19 wantedto see both of us. Mom wasn't driving at that point,
20 so we went to her house.
21 Q Okay. And bothyou and Ms. Cheryl?
22 A Yes.
23 Q when you arrivedat Denise's house, was anyone else
24 there?
25 A Not on the firstoccasion. All I remember is her.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 501
1 Q Okay. what was said?
2 A she wasn't happy about the newspaper article that
3 had -- Momhad finally had some success and got a little
4 blurb, alittle article in The Democrat, talking about Mike
5 and whatMom was doing to try to get some more attention to
6 the case,get an investigation going. She said at the time
7 she didnot --
8 Q WhoTs she?
9 A Denise.
10 Q Okay.
11 A said she didnTt want to hear his name again, didn't
12 want tosee anything in the paper about him again, that --
13 didn't wantto know anything that Mom was doing about Mike.
14 She wanted-- she needed to get on with her life.
15 Q okay. You and I are talking in a very calm,
16 conversationalaspect right now. Is that the same way that
17 was beingdiscussed -- this was being discussed back then?
18 A No.
19 Q How -- what was different?
20 A She -- Denise was very angry. She really did not
21 want toknow anything, hear anything about Mike again.
22 Q was she yelling at y'all?
23 A It was to the point of a little bit of yelling.
24 Yes.
25 Q Trying to discourage you from doing newspaper
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 502
1 articles and getting an investigation.
2 A Any kind of publicity, any kind of real
3 investigation to try to find Mike.
4 Q How do y'all react?
5 A we were a little stunned, both of us, that she would
6 react in that way. we were just trying to find Mike. we, I
7 guess, thought she'd want to do the same thing.
8 Q And did y'all stay at the house?
9 A No. It was a very brief visit, we left.
10 Q You mentioned there was a second time.
11 A Yes.
12 Q When was that?And if you donTt know the exact
13 date, that's fine. I know this was a long time ago but just a
14 rough estimate is fine.
15 A I believe it was a few years later, 2005. Mom and I
16 were at a restaurant eating lunch on a Saturday. I usually
17 went over and took her to get her groceries and went out to
18 eat.
19 I got a call on my cell phone from Denise saying
20 that she wanted us to come out to the house, wanted to know
21 when would you be home, our house, my mother's house. And she
22 wanted to meet us there. So I told her, well, we would be
23 there about two o'clock. And so Mom and I finished up our day
24 and went over to the house and waited for her to arrive.
25 Q And did she arrive?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 503
1 A Yes.
2 Q wasanybody with her at that time?
3 A Brianwinchester was with her.
4 Q wereyou inside the home or outside the home when
5 they arrived?
6 A we wereboth inside. Mom and I were inside the
7 house,in thekitchen, when they came in.
8 Q whereis the kitchen in relation to the doorway
9 that'sused?
10 A It's-- the back door is right into the kitchen.
11 That'sthe wayeverybody comes and goes out of MomTs house.
12 Q So,really, the kitchen is the entry area.
13 A Theentry area. Yes.
14 Q So y'allare there.
15 A Yes.
16 Q AndBrian Winchester and Denise Williams show up.
17 A Yes.
18 Q Whathappens?
19 A Denisesits down at the table. Mom is already
20 sittingat thetable. Brian and I are standing. And, again,
21 Deniseis, obviously,angry. She -- the main thing that I
22 rememberfromthe conversation is her saying, why are you
23 lying aboutthis? Why are you telling all these lies about us
24 all overtown? And we want you to stop.
25 Q Didshe make any threatening remarks?
VERONICAG. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 504
1 A She said, if you do not stop this investigation,
2 which wehad, finally, that led to the whole occasion. we
3 finallyhad an investigation going. Then, you know, she said
4 we both,Denise -- Anslee and I love you, but, you know,
5 you're notgoing to see her anymore if you don't get this
6 investigationstopped.
7 Q So she tells you that you need to stop the
8 investigation,or you're not going to see Anslee.
9 A Yes.
10 Q who's Anslee?
11 A Her daughter, my niece, Mom's granddaughter.
12 Q Mike's daughter.
13 A Mike's daughter.
14 Q Do you see Denise here in the courtroom today?
15 A Yes, I do.
16 Q Can you please point to her and indicate an article
17 of clothingshe's wearing?
18 A At the defense table.
19 MR. FUCHS: May the record please reflect he's
20 indicatedthe defendant, Ms. Denise williams. Thank you.
21 THE COURT: Cross.
22 CROSS-EXAMINATION
23 MR. WAY:
24 Q Mr. Williams, is there -- there's not one specified
25 way thatanybody grieves for the passing of a family member,
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 505
1 is there?
2 A No.
3 Q There's no set methodology on how to handle, say,
4 the loss of a father?
5 A Probably not.
6 Q The loss of a spouse?
7 A Not.
8 Q Certainly not the loss of a child.
9 A Right.
10 Q Your brother loved Denise, didn't he?
11 A He did.
12 Q worshiped her.
13 A Yes. From everything he told us, he did.
14 Q Absolutely. There was nothing that ever suggested
15 to youthat there was any trouble or any worries between
16 Deniseand Mike.
17 A Not that he told us.
18 Q And Mike loved his little girl.
19 A Yeah. He did worship her.
20 Q Mike went missing December 16th, 2000.
21 A Yes.
22 Q You know now -- do you know who Brian Winchester is?
23 A Yes.
24 Q How long have you known Brian winchester?
25 A Going back to Mike's high school days, I guess, the
VERONICAG. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 506
1 1980's.
2 Q Is Brian winchester Mike's best friend?
3 A At one time I believe he was his best friend.
4 Q And you know now that Brian winchester killed your
5 brother.
6 A Yes.
7 Q You know the circumstances of the agreement that he
8 made withthe State that will prevent him from being
9 prosecutedfor that, don't you?
10 A Yes.
11 Q There was a memorial service for Mike in February of
12 2001. Doyou recall that?
13 A Yes, I do.
14 Q Scott Dungey and some others went there.
15 A Yes.
16 Q Your mother participated in that.
17 A Yes.
18 Q I believe you also participated in it.
19 A Yes.
20 Q And to many of Mike's friends and family, that was
21 an opportunityfor them to have a certain type of closure.
22 would youagree?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Because many of the people who knew and loved Mike
25 williamsbelieved that, unfortunately, by that time in
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 507
1 February of 2001, the strong likelihood was he was no longer
2 alive; isn't that true?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And Anslee was about two years old at this point?
5 A Almost. One and a half.
6 Q And she was, obviously, a little younger when her
7 father was killed by Mr. Winchester.
8 A Yes.
9 Q Denise was, at this point now, the single mother of
10 Anslee, wasn't she?
11 A Yes, she was.
12 Q And she had to try to get on with having a daughter
13 not having your brother around to help take care of her.
14 A Yes.
15 Q would it be fair to say that your mother believed,
16 up until as recently as December of 2017, that your brother
17 was going to come home one day, didn't she?
18 A she held out every hope that he was alive somehow.
19 Q And she was not shy about expressing her belief that
20 your brother was going to walk in the door one day.
21 A Correct.
22 Q But to a little girl who doesnTt -- didnTt know her
23 daddy, because she was too young, to be told by her
24 grandmother that --
25 MR. FUCHS: Object. Your Honor, I'm going to object
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 tothis as argumentive, as well as speculative.
2 THE COURT: Overruled.
3 MR. WAY:
4 Q Your mom is Anslee's grandmother.
5 A Yes.
6 Q And up until 2005, you and your mom had saw Anslee,
7 were involvedin AnsleeTs life, weren't you?
8 A At her -- Denise's direction, maybe once -a -week
9 visits.
10 Q All right, well, once a week with your niece.
11 mean, An-- Denise is still her mom, right?
12 A Yes.
13 Q SheTs still her mama. very much the same way Cheryl
14 is yourmama?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And there's the large and certain segment of, you
17 know, Mom-- Mom's important to, to a person, arenTt they?
18 A Yes.
19 Q But as Anslee got older, your mom continued to hold
20 the beliefthat your brother was going to walk in that door
21 one day.
22 A She did.
23 Q IsnTt it fair to -- from the facts that you've
24 describedduring your testimony to Mr. Fuchs' questions, isnTt
25 it alsofair to think that Anslee needs to be protected,
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 509
1 perhaps, from the thought that her father could walk through
2 that door when almost everyone else has thought he died?
3 A I'm not sure. we just wanted the truth.
4 Q Wanting the truth is one thing but, but a --
5 THE COURT: We're not going to argue with the
6 witness, Mr. Way.
7 MR. WAY: I apologize, Judge.
8 THE COURT: All right.
9 MR. WAY:
10 Q But since there's no set way to grieve with
11 something, wouldn't it be also fair from the facts that
12 Ms. Williams had an obligation to protect her daughter?
13 A she did what she thought was right.
14 MR. WAY: Nothing further, Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: Redirect.
16 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
17 BY MR. FUCHS:
18 Q You and your mom never saw her in 2005, did you?
19 A we did not.
20 Q Denise's threat was stop the investigation --
21 THE COURT: Who are we talking about, her,
22 Mr. Fuchs?
23 BY MR. FUCHS:
24 Q Anslee. Excuse me.
25 A Yes, We never saw Anslee, again. We were never
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 510
1 allowed another visit after 2005.
2 Q what Denise said was, stop the investigation; did
3 she not?
4 A Yes.
5 Q wasn't, why do you keep saying he's alive?
6 A No.
7 Q No conversation like we're having right now of,
8 Ms. Cheryl,I can't have you saying that around Anslee. It's
9 hard onher. If you want her to believe it, that's fine.
10 A No.
11 Q It was a come over in anger, stop the investigation
12 or else.
13 A Yes.
14 Q And you never saw her again.
15 A Never saw her again.
16 Q whenever it was determined that Mike had been
17 murderedin December of 2017, did she reach out to you and try
18 and facilitateconversation between y'all and Anslee?
19 A No.
20 Q Never said i'm sorry?
21 A No.
22 MR. FUCHS: No further questions.
23 THE COURT: Any juror have a question of this
24 witness?
25 (No audible response.)
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 511
1 THE COURT: All right. You can step down.
2 Call yournext witness.
3 Can we excusethis witness?
4 MR. FUCHS: He can be excused, Your Honor.
5 THE COURT: All right. Any reason he can't be
6 excused, Mr. Way?
7 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
8 THE COURT: All right. You're excused to go about
9 your business orstay in the courtroom as you see fit.
10 (Witness exits.)
11 MR. WAY: Your Honor, Mr. Padovano will handle the
12 questioning ofthe next witness.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 (Pause.)
15 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, if I can, can we borrow your
16 microphone -- orwe've got a ramp, don't we?
17 THE COURT: Yes, If it doesn't work, weTll change
18 it.
19 THE CLERK: Do you want me to get in front of her,
20 Judge, or just-- that will be fine?
21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 THE CLERK: Please raise your right hand.
23 whereupon,
24 CHERYL ANN WILLIAMS
25 was called as a wttness,having been first duly sworn, was
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 512
1 examined and testfled as follows:
2 DIRECT EXAMINATION
3 BY MR.FUCHS:
4 Q Good afternoon.
5 A Good afternoon.
6 Q Can you please introduce yourselfto the jurors?
7 what'syour name, ma'am? what's your name?
8 A Cheryl Ann williams.
9 Q Ms. Cheryl, how do you spell yourfirst name?
10 A C -H -E -R -Y -L.
11 Q And, Ms. Cheryl, you are, in fact,Mike williams'
12 mother;are you not?
13 A Yes.
14 Q As well as Nick williams?
15 A Sir?
16 Q As well as Nick williams?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Okay. Do you have any grandkids?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q One of those grandkids Anslee?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And who is Anslee?
23 A Mike's daughter.
24 Q And that's from his marriage withDenise, correct?
25 A Right.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 513
1 Q Now, Ms. Cheryl, it's my understanding that you kind
2 of run alittle bit of a day care -- not really run a day
3 care, butyou take care of kids on a daily basis; is that
4 correct?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q It's kind of what you've done most of your life.
7 A For 50 years.
8 Q Take care of your kids' kids?
9 A Some.
10 Q okay. what about neighborhood kids?
11 A Neighbors, yes.
12 Q Friends? Friends' kids?
13 A Friends, yes.
14 Q How many kids on a daily basis do you take care of?
15 A In, in 50 years?
16 Q On a daily basis, how many kids come over?
17 A Day-to-day basis, anywhere from four to ten.
18 Q Okay. For 50 years, huh?
19 A For 50 years.
20 Q Seen a lot of kids grow up.
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q Have you had a chance to see Anslee grow up?
23 A I did not get to keep Anslee in my home day care.
24 Q Haven't had a chance to watch her grow up, have you?
25 A Sir?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 514
1 Q you have not had a chance to watch her grow up, have
2 you?
3 A No, sir.
4 Q Talking about Mike williams' death as we now know
5 it, back in 2000, it was a disappearance.
6 A Yes.
7 Q The initial theory was that he was missing and
8 possibly eaten by alligators.
9 A Right.
10 Q you never believed that, did you?
11 A No, sir.
12 Q And, in fact, you took lots of steps to initiate an
13 investigation; did you not?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Put up posters?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Wrote the governor?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Put up billboards?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And, in fact, you were able to get an investigation
22 launched; were you not?
23 A Yes.
24 Q At some point did you have a confrontation with
25 Denise about your belief that Mike being still alive?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 515
1 A Yes.
2 Q when was -- how many times?
3 A Twice.
4 Q when was the first time?
5 A It was August of 2001.
6 Q So nine months after Mike went missing.
7 A Yes.
8 Q where was this?
9 A It was in her front yard.
10 Q what happened?
11 A I had been trying to get publicity for Mike's
12 disappearance. I had written the letters to the editor at the
13 Tallahassee Democrat begging them to do a story about Mike's
14 disappearance.
15 Finally, a reporter, Tony Bridges, from the
16 Tallahassee Democrat read my letters to the editor. And he
17 was doing a story about people who were missing locally in
18 Tallahassee area. He called me to ask me if he could include
19 Mike in those people. And I told him yes. Nick took a
20 picture to the Tallahassee Democrat, and he did a story.
21 when the article came out in the newspaper, Denise
22 called me on the phone. She was livid. She said, you and
23 Nick need to come over here right now. we went to her house,
24 in the front yard. we weren't even invited inside. She was
25 screaming at me. she was mad about the article. And she
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 516
1 said, screaming at me, I don't ever want to hear Mike's name
2 again. i donTt ever want to see Mike's picture in the paper
3 again. I donTt ever want to know anything you're doing about
4 Mike again. I have to get on with my life.
5 And I ask her,I said, if that wereAnslee in the
6 lake, youwould just leave her there? And shesaid, I would
7 believe the authorities. I -- then she said,if you persist
8 in tryingto get a criminal investigation, youwill lose
9 Anslee.
10 Q Your granddaughter.
11 A My granddaughter.
12 Q Mike's daughter.
13 A Mike's daughter.
14 Q You said there was a second time.
15 A The second time was in --
16 Q Let me, let me stop you right therereal quick
17 before weget on. okay.
18 A Yes. There was a second time.
19 Q You seem to have a very good grasp ofdates and
20 names.
21 A Ido.
22 Q Been a passion, obviously, for yourson's --
23 A Yes.
24 Q -- for a long time.
25 A Yes.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 517
1 Q Taken a lot of steps, correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q LetTs talk about the second time then. where did
4 the secondtime happen and when?
5 A It was January 8th, 2005. Nick and I were at the
6 restauranteating lunch. She called Nick on his cell phone
7 and she said,what time is Cheryl going to be at home? Nick
8 said, twoo'clock. She said, well, I'm coming over.
9 The next day was January 9th. I thought that she
10 was goingto bring the baby to see me for my birthday. we had
11 not seenher since Halloween --
12 Q Let me stop you right there.
13 A In 2004.
14 Q Let me stop you right there. So your birthday is
15 the verynext day?
16 A It was the very next day, January 9th.
17 Q And if i understood you correctly, the last time you
18 saw Ansleebefore then was Halloween, so Oct --
19 A Was Halloween of 2004.
20 Q okay. So it was October. So, from October to
21 January,you hadn't seen her.
22 A Right.
23 Q And this is the day before your birthday.
24 A It was the day before my birthday, January 8th.
25 Q okay. what happened next?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 518
1 A Nick and I got home and Denise came. She knocked on
2 the door. we opened the door, and Brian was with her.
3 Q Brian, being Brian winchester?
4 A Brian Winchester. And I ask her,I said, where's
5 Anslee? Because I thought she was bringing Anslee to see me.
6 And shesaid, Anslee's taking a nap. well, we invited her
7 inside,and she sat down at the table across from me. Nick
8 was standing. Brian had his back to the door.
9 Q And what did Denise tell you?
10 A Denise said, Cheryl, you know that Anslee and I love
11 you, butBrian and I don't like the lies you're telling about
12 us.
13 And I looked at her and I said, Denise, what lies
14 are youtalking about?
15 Brian screamed, you shut your mouth and let her
16 talk.
17 Nick got upset and said some not nice things to
18 Brian.
19 And then Denise is crying, and she says, Cheryl, if
20 you willjust stop this investigation, you can see Anslee
21 again.
22 And I told her,I said, Denise, I can't stop this
23 investigation. I wouldn't if I could.
24 Nick said, Denise, Mike is mama's son and my
25 brother,and we just want to know what you and Brian did to
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 519
1 him.
2 Brian said, Denise, let's go. We're not getting
3 anywhere. And they left.
4 Q Did you ever see Anslee again?
5 A No.
6 Q Never seen her since.
7 A Not at my house.
8 (Off-the-record discussion.)
9 BY MR.FUCHS:
10 Q Showing you what's previously marked as State's
11 ExhibitNo. 15. is that Mike?
12 A That's Mike.
13 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, I move State's Exhibit No.
14 15into evidence.
15 THE COURT: Any objection?
16 MR. WAY: No objection. I --
17 THE COURT: It will be admitted.
18 (State's Exhibit No. 15 received in evidence.)
19 MR. FUCHS: publish to the jury, Your Honor?
20 THE COURT: You may.
21 BY MR.FUCHS:
22 Q And, in fact, that's the photograph that you used
23 for all--
24 A Sir?
25 Q That's the photograph you use in your billboards and
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 520
1 your
2 A Yes.
3 Q -- postings all these years.
4 A Yes.
5 MR. FUCHS: No further questions.
6 THE COURT: Cross.
7 pull, pull your photo, please, Mr. Fuchs.
8 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir.
9 CROSS-EXAMINATION
10 BY MR. PADOVANO:
11 Q Good afternoon, Ms. Williams.
12 A Good afternoon.
13 Q I am Phil padovano. You and I have not met. I'm
14 just goingto ask you a few questions. And I'm certainly
15 sorry thatit had to be under these circumstances. But I do
16 have a few questions I want to ask you. The, the first time
17 that you --that Denise confronted you was -- I think you said
18 it was inthe summer of 2001?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q And by then, a circuit judge had declared Mike dead
21 by that time;is that right?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And by then, the family had had a memorial service
24 for Mike.
25 A Yes.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 521
1 Q And is it fair to assume that Denise would have had
2 to explain to Anslee -- would have to deal with the fact that
3 her dad wasn't home and try to explain it the best way you
4 could to a child what had happened?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And, and, and do you think it might have been
7 difficult for her to be seeing missing posters and billboards
8 and things such as that -- you, you said she was trying to get
9 past it. Is that what she said? She felt like she had to get
10 past it?
11 A she said she had to get on with her life.
12 Q Okay. And, you know,I hate this term closure,
13 because I think in something like this there's never any
14 closure. I don't even like to use the word. But do you know
15 what that means when people say that?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q And you think that some people might have this need
18 then to get beyond a certain point and not say I've, I've
19 grieved, I've, I've grieved the loss of my husband. I've, you
20 know, grieved the loss of my child's father, but now I still
21 have to entertain the idea that maybe heTs still alive. Do
22 you accept that that might be difficult for some people?
23 A It might.
24 Q okay. And, and, and I,I know you have a different
25 view of it and I respect that. Believe me,I do. I wanted to
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 522
1 ask you about the second occasion, which was much later, I
2 think, wasn't it?
3 A Right.
4 Q And I think that,I think that I heard you say --
5 and, andyou correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm not sure how
6 I heardthis. But I thought I heard you say that you and Nick
7 said youjust wanted to find out what Brian and Denise did to
8 Mike.
9 A Right.
10 Q is that right?
11 A Right.
12 Q Now, if Denise is innocent and she thought that you
13 were accusingher of doing something to your son, do you think
14 it wouldbe logical for her to be upset with you?
15 A If she were innocent, yes.
16 Q So this was, this was a reaction that she had that
17 would beconsistent with a person who's innocent.
18 A Right.
19 Q Did you ever go to Cheryl's house on Centennial Oaks
20 after 2001?
21 THE COURT: whose --
22 THE WITNESS: Go to whose house?
23 BY MR. PADOVANO:
24 Q I'm sorry. I made a -- I'm sorry. I used your
25 name. Imeant to say Denise williams. Did you ever go to
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 523
1 Denise's house on Centennial Oaks after 2001?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And did you see the pictures of Mike in the house?
4 A No.
5 Q You didn't?
6 A No.
7 Q Okay. Let me ask you a couple of questions now.
8 And these are going to get a little easier. I, I told the
9 jury onTuesday that your son was a good father, a good
10 husband,and a good provider. would you agree with that?
11 A Yes.
12 Q How long had you -- what was, what was his
13 relationship like with Denise during the time that they were
14 together?
15 A I thought it was good.
16 Q And you knew Denise for quite a while. I mean,
17 long --they got married in 1994, right?
18 A Right.
19 Q But you knew her for quite a while before that,
20 right?
21 A Right.
22 Q And how did they, how did they -- I mean, did they
23 get along?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And what were your feelings towards Denise during
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 524
1 that period of time?
2 A I loved her.
3 MR. PADOVANO: Thank you.
4 THE COURT: Redirect.
5 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. FUCHS:
7 Q Ms. Cheryl?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q In December 9th of 2017, you were told that Mike
10 williamshad actually been murdered and his body was found,
11 correct?
12 A Yes.
13 Q You were told before everybody else was told,
14 briefly,and then it hit the news, correct?
15 A Sir?
16 Q You were told before everybody else was and then it
17 hit thenews, correct?
18 A Right.
19 Q How long did it take before Denise called you and
20 said, I'msorry,I was wrong all these years?
21 A She never did.
22 Q How long did it take before she called you and said,
23 hey, I'msorry, maybe I need to help you see your
24 granddaughteragain?
25 A She never did.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 525
1 Q So from the day that she threatened you to stop the
2 investigation, the day before your birthday, you've never seen
3 your granddaughter?
4 A No.
5 MR. FUCHS: No further questions.
6 THE COURT: Any juror have a question of this
7 witness?
8 (No audible response.)
9 THE COURT: All right. You can step down. That
10 wasn't exactly the right terminology but you're excused.
11 You're excused.
12 (Witness exits.)
13 THE COURT: Do you have further, Mr. Fuchs?
14 MR. FUCHS: Not today, Your Honor. The one witness
15 we have remaining is -- we have to call in the morning.
16 THE COURT: All right, we're, we're making good
17 progress. we're well ahead of schedule but there -- the
18 State has one more witness that, you know, because of the
19 way we thought it was going to go, was flying in tonight.
20 So they're not available until in the morning. So we're
21 going to need to break for the evening.
22 From what the defense says, they will be able to
23 finish their testimony tomorrow. So we'll have the one
24 witness from the State and then the defense case. So
25 we'll be through with the testimony tomorrow. So,
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 526
1 hopefully, that's good news for you. we're well ahead of
2 the schedule that we had outlined coming into this.
3 So, you know, trials are a little unpredictable.
4 Sometimes things happen that we donTt expect. But -- so
5 what it's looking like at this point in time we'll finish
6 the testimony tomorrow, instruct you, and have closing
7 argument Friday and send the case to you by lunchtime on
8 Friday. That's kind of where we kind of stand at this
9 point. As I say, things can change but that's our
10 current best, best guess.
11 So don't discuss the cases with anyone. Don't let
12 anyone discuss with you. Don't watch media accounts. Is
13 it working out all right in the morning with the parking,
14 the court administration people meeting you downstairs,
15 getting you up here? Everybody doing okay with that?
16 Anyway, 8:45 tomorrow. If Ryan Adams would stay
17 with us just for a moment. we'll see y'all in the
18 morning.
19 (Jury exits.)
20 THE COURT: Everybody be seated or step out, please.
21 You can sit down, Mr. Adams. I'm sorry. we do
22 listen to what you say, whether, whether you think so or
23 not. i know that what i just announced kind of runs head
24 into what you were telling us that you were hoping to do.
25 So i donTt know where it stands with you on that at this
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 527
1 point in time, whether you've blown it off or whether
2 you've been hoping that, you know, 4:00 or five o'clock
3 on Friday you'd be able to, you know, head out of here or
4 how does it stand with you. And I can't promise you what
5 I'm going to do, but I wanted to kind of hear where you
6 currently stood.
7 JUROR ADAMS: we canceled the trip.
8 THE COURT: what's that?
9 JUROR ADAMS: we canceled the trip.
10 THE COURT: Okay. I'm sorry that you had to do that
11 but anyway. All right, we'll see you in the morning.
12 JUROR ADAMS: Thank you.
13 (Juror exits.)
14 THE COURT: So anything from either side?
15 MR. FUCHS: No, sir.
16 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
17 MR. PADOVANO: No. No, Your Honor. But just for
18 your planning purposes, I'm assuming that we have one
19 State's witness tomorrow. I just wanted to let you know
20 that the, the motions for judgment of acquittal will
21 be -- will take some time. They're going to be
22 substantial. we have some arguments and some case law in
23 each of the charges. And I just want to let you know
24 sometimes these things are just a ten-minute affair, and
25 this one will not be.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 528
1 THECOURT: well, we don't need to spend a lot of
2 time onit.
3 MR.PADOVANO: well...
4 THECOURT: Anyway.
5 MR.PADOVANO: I'd like to make a record of the
6 things thatI think are appropriate.
7 THECOURT: Certainly you need to make a record --
8 MR.PADOVANO: yeah.
9 THECOURT: -- but that shouldn't take --
10 MR.PADOVANO: I'd actually like --
11 THECOURT: -- a lengthy time.
12 MR.PADOVANO: -- I'd actually like to persuade you,
13 Your Honor. Not that it matters.
14 THECOURT: we'll see.
15 MR.PADOVANO: Okay.
16 THECOURT: Jury instructions, have y'all looked
17 over them or -- y'all may have absorbed enough that you
18 haven'tlooked at them.
19 MR.FUCHS: I glanced at them, Your Honor. I have
20 nothingthat --
21 THECOURT: All right, well, we're through early.
22 MR.FUCHS: IT11 be doing it this afternoon.
23 THECOURT: we're winding down. Let's get serious
24 about looking at those.
25 MR.FUCHS: Yes, sir.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 529
1 THECOURT: you know, I've read back over them,
2 tried to pick outmistakes. But, you know, once we get
3 there, ITd hopeto be able to go through that pretty
4 promptly. Andit won't be promptly if y'all hadn't read
5 them. And we're-- you know, I've only set out, you
6 know, what -- I'mguessing what youTll want. But we're
7 certainly not lockedinto that. But --
8 MR.FUCHS: Yes, sir.
9 THECOURT: -- anyway. Anything else from either
10 side?
11 MR.FUCHS: No,Your Honor.
12 MR. WAY: No,Your Honor.
13 THECOURT: All right. See y'all at 8:30.
14 (Court inrecess; continued in volumeV.)
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19
20
21
22
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25
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 530
CERTIFICATE
STATE OF FLORIDA:
COUNTY OF LEON:
I, VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, Official Court
Reporter, do hereby certify that the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the time and place therein designated; that my shorthand notes were thereafter translated under my supervision; and the foregoing pages are a true and correct record of the aforesaid proceedings.
I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative, employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor relative or employee of such attorney or counsel, or financially interested in the foregoing action.
DATED this 13th day of March, 2019.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER LEON COUNTY COURTHOUSE TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER Filing # 88302537 E -Filed 04/22/2019 11:37:26 AM 531
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SECOND JUDICIAL CIRCUIT, IN AND FOR LEON COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. : 2018 -CF -1592
STATE OF FLORIDA
vs. VOLUME V Pages 531 - 664 DENISE WILLIAMS,
Defendant. -----/
* AMENDED *
PROCEEDINGS: JURY TRIAL
BEFORE: THE HONORABLE JAMES C. HANKINSON
DATE: December 13, 2018
TIME: Commencing at 8:30 a.m. Concluding at 11:35 a.m.
LOCATION: Leon County Courthouse Tallahassee, Florida
REPORTED BY: VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR Official Court Reporter Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at Large
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR Official Court Reporter Leon County Courthouse, Room 341 Tallahassee, FL 32301 532
1 APPEARANCES
2 REPRESENTING THE STATE:
3 JON FUCHS, ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY JAMES A. ROGERS, ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY 4 OFFICE OF THE STATE ATTORNEY LEON COUNTY COURTHOUSE 5 TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301
6
7 REPRESENTING THE DEFENDANT:
8 ETHAN WAY, ESQUIRE WAY LAW FIRM 9 1020 EAST LAFAYETTE STREET, SUITE 112 TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301-4546 10 PHILIP J.PADOVANO, ESQUIRE 11 BRANNOCK & HUMPHRIES, P.A. 131 NORTH GADSDEN STREET 12 TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301-1507
13
14 INDEX 15 WITNESSES: PAGE: 16 KATHERINE THOMAS 17 Direct Examination By M. Rogers 683 Cross -Examination By Mr. way 719 18 Cross -Examination By Mr. Rogers 737
19 CURTIS HUNTER Direct Examination By Mr. way 763 20 Cross -Examination By Mr. Fuchs 768 Cross -Examination By Mr. way 770 21 JAMES R. MARTIN, JR. 22 Direct Examination By Mr. way 772 Cross -Examination y Mr. Rogers 775 23 MIKE PHILLLIPS 24 Direct Examination By Mr. way 777 Cross -Examination y Mr. Fuchs 780 25
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 533
1 INDEX (cont)
2 WITNESSES: PAGE: 3 CHRISTIN GONZALEZ 4 Proffered Direct Examination By Mr. Way 783
5 DENISE WILLIAMS Examination By The Court 791 6
7 STATE'S EXHIBITS
8 20 695 16 700 9 2 790
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25 Certificate of Reporter 797
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURTREPORTER 534
1 PROCEEDINGS
2 THE BAILIFF: All rise. Court is now in session.
3 The Honorable Judge James C. Hankinson presiding.
4 THE COURT: Be seated, please, folks. we're here in
5 the State of Florida v williams, Case No. 2018CF1592.
6 Let the record reflect defendant is present with her
7 attorneys.
8 Any outstanding issues we need to deal with this
9 morning?
10 MR. FUCHS: Not at this time, Your Honor.
11 THE COURT: Mr. Way.
12 MR. WAY: I'm sorry, Your Honor. No, Your Honor.
13 THE COURT: okay. we have your witnesses ready,
14 Mr. Fuchs?
15 MR. FUCHS: Yes, Your Honor.
16 THE COURT: Is that still your plan, just to have
17 the one additional witness?
18 MR. FUCHS: It is, Your Honor.
19 THE COURT: Okay. Let's go through the evidence
20 just to make sure, Kathy, that my notes are consistent
21 with what the parties have. I have admitted one through
22 eight. One is A through D -- and ITm not a hundred
23 percent on the lettering -- 3-A through C; 4-A through M;
24 5-A through E; 6-A through C; 7-A through C; 8. There is
25 no nine admitted.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 535
1 MR.FUCHS: Correct.
2 THECLERK: Correct.
3 THECOURT: we have 10-A through F;11; 12. I
4 didn't...
5 THECLERK: A through G.
6 THECOURT: what is that?
7 THECLERK: A through G.
8 THECOURT: A through G; 13-A through D; 14 is also,
9 I believe, A throughD; is that correct?
10 THECLERK: Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
11 THECOURT: Fifteen. At this point there's no 16
12 admittedand then17.
13 MR.FUCHS: I believe that was A through M.
14 THECOURT: we need to be...
15 (Pause.)
16 THECOURT: Seventeen is where I admitted some and
17 didn't admit --
18 THECLERK: Yes, sir.
19 THECOURT: -- others. Let's, let's go over that.
20 THECLERK: You didn't admit...
21 MR.FUCHS: I think 17 was the ticket, Your Honor,
22 if I'm not mistaken,A through M.
23 THECLERK: Seventeen, yes, was the ID.
24 THECOURT: No. Eighteen was the tickets. Eighteen
25 is A through Fand 19 -- 17,I guess, are the ones a
VERONICAG. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 536
1 little bit confusing, because I admitted some photosand
2 did notadmit others.
3 THECLERK: Correct.
4 THECOURT: we need to make sure those that I did
5 not admit don'tgo to the jury.
6 THECLERK: Correct.
7 THECOURT: Let's --
8 THECLERK: ITve got them separated. It was 17-G,
9 J,K, L,M,N --
10 THECOURT: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. You'rea
11 little --
12 THECLERK: oh.
13 THECOURT: G, J, K.
14 THECLERK: L,M, P, Q, R, S.
15 THECOURT: Are the ones not admitted?
16 THECLERK: Correct.
17 THECOURT: Okay. And then beyond that it's A
18 through-- whatis the last letter?
19 THECLERK: A through --
20 MR.FUCHS: D.
21 THECLERK: A through F,right?
22 THECOURT: No. There are some others.
23 MR.FUCHS: A, B, C,D, E, F, H,I,N, 0, and Tare
24 what I have thatwere admitted.
25 THECLERK: Yes.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 537
1 THECOURT: Okay. That's the only place where it's
2 a littleconfusing.
3 THECLERK: Yes, sir.
4 THECOURT: So make sure we're all in agreement on
5 that. Isthatconsistent with everyone's records?
6 MR.FUCHS: Yes, sir.
7 MR.WAYT: Yes, Your Honor.
8 THECOURT: All right. And then we have court
9 exhibit of thePowerPoint and perpetuated testimony.
10 Neither of thoseitems go to the jury either.
11 THECLERK: Correct. I've got those separated.
12 THECOURT: All right. So we need to make sure
13 those three itemsare separated.
14 Anyotherissues on the evidence?
15 MR.WAYT: Judge, you do have Defendant's Exhibit 1,
16 Your Honor?
17 THECOURT: Yeah. Good. Thank you for reminding
18 me. Yes.
19 MR.FUCHS: we had --
20 THECOURT: So far we have Defense Exhibit 1, the
21 proffer agreement.
22 MR.WAYT: Yes, sir.
23 MR.FUCHS: we had 18 and 19. Eighteen was the
24 concert ticketsand 19 was the letter.
25 THECOURT: Okay. Eighteen A through F, the concert
VERONICAG. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 538
1 tickets;and 19, the letter. Yes.
2 MR.FUCHS: okay.
3 THECOURT: Okay. Are we in agreement on all those?
4 MR.WAYT: Yes, Your Honor.
5 THECOURT: Did you have something else, Mr. way?
6 MR.WAYT: Only that I -- we have the two and three
7 for thedefense have been premarked and will be
8 introduced earlier in our case today.
9 THECOURT: Okay. Is there an issue on either of
10 those?
11 MR.FUCHS: Yes, Your Honor. There is. On Exhibit
12 No.2 isthe wife's family law financial affidavit, Your
13 Honor. The State is arguing that is in fact hearsay.
14 That isa statement that was prepared by Ms. Williams for
15 her attorneyfor the purposes of a divorce and
16 constitutes an affidavit prepared and is an out -of -court
17 statement offered for the truth of the matter asserted.
18 THECOURT: Are you prepared to deal with that now,
19 Mr. way?
20 MR.WAY: I can, Your Honor.
21 THECOURT: All right.
22 MR.WAY: The family law financial affidavit is
23 filed inCase 2015DR2487. It is a official court record
24 that isrequired to be filed pursuant to the family law
25 rules ofprocedure. It was -- we have a certified copy.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 539
1 we have the attorney who is going to testify that the
2 financial affidavit was filed in connection with the
3 divorce. The divorce proceeding is relevant to this
4 case. It's relevant to this case, because the timing of
5 the kidnapping in August is in direct correlation to an
6 order to compel , which is Defense Exhibit 3.
7 The affidavit shows and it's clearly evidence that
8 testimony has been elicited from State witnesses that, I
9 think, quote, was follow the money. And the financial
10 affidavit filed as part of the case of 2015DR2487 shows a
11 accounting of Ms. Winchester's financial position as it
12 related to her divorce from Mr. winchester on or about
13 December 5th, 2015.
14 THE COURT: The date of the affidavit is what?
15 MR. WAY: The date of the affidavit, Your Honor, is
16 it was filed on March 31st, 2017. It relates back to the
17 date of filing, If I can approach, Your Honor, I'll give
18 you a copy --
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 MR. WAY: -- so you can view it. May I approach?
21 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, in addition to the hearsay
22 argument, I will also argue --
23 THE COURT: ITm going to let you be heard, again --
24 MR. FUCHS: Okay.
25 THE COURT: -- let Mr. way finish. So --
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 540
1 MR. WAY: Your Honor, the petition --
2 THE COURT: -- it relates back to December 2015?
3 MR. WAY: Yes, Your Honor. The time of filing of
4 the dissolution of marriage.
5 THE COURT: Okay. So how, how is it not hearsay?
6 MR. WAY: well, Your Honor, it -- it's, first, it's
7 a record contained in the court filings in the circuit in
8 which --
9 THE COURT: I mean, I get it's authenticated.
10 MR. WAY: Right.
11 THE COURT: That's not the question.
12 MR. WAY: Or judicial.
13 THE COURT: As the First DCA taught me in,I think
14 it was State v Thomas, not only do you have to get the
15 item authenticated, you have to cover the fact that the
16 contents may be hearsay.
17 MR. WAY: well, Your Honor, the, the issue is from
18 the pa -- the term of Ms. Winchester signed an affidavit
19 in connection with her divorce proceeding stating what
20 her financial position was at the time. In terms of
21 whether it's the out -of -court statement offered for the
22 truth of the matter asserted, I think it's offered for
23 the truth -- or the evidence to suggest that she was the
24 protagonist of the divorce. She was complying with her
25 requirements.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 541
1 we do have argument later as it relates to the order
2 to compel that Mr. winchester was not complying with his
3 requirements. That's what, I believe, is part of what
4 prompted the kidnapping.
5 THE COURT: That goes to relevance. It doesn't
6 defeat the hearsay issue.
7 You had something else, Mr. Fuchs?
8 MR. FUCHS: That was the second issue I was going to
9 bring up was the relevance aspect. I still stand by the
10 fact that it is, in fact, hearsay. It was prepared. It
11 is an out -of -court statement offered for the truth of the
12 matter asserted. The relevance aspect as it relates to
13 the conspiracy, the murder, and ultimately the accessory
14 after the fact, given the testimony is irrelevant
15 regarding a financial affidavit.
16 The question became the motive, and the motive that
17 was existed at the time that the conspiracy and the
18 homicide occurred which predates the affidavit by 15
19 years.
20 THE COURT: well,I think probably relevance is a
21 little marginal, but I would probably find that it has
22 some relevance. But it's clearly hearsay, a statement by
23 Ms. winchester as to her financial condition at the time.
24 So I'm going to sustain the objection.
25 Do you want me to make this copy part of the record
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 542
1 as a proffer, or do you have a marked copy? No. This is
2 the marked copy.
3 MR. WAY: That's the marked copy. If you could
4 introduce thatas proffered exhibit, I will renumber what
5 was Exhibit 2 tobe Exhibit 3 for the jury.
6 THE COURT: Why don't you just leave them as is
7 rather than --because the record is going to be kind of
8 confused. Justleave your three.
9 MR. WAY: Okay. I was just worried the jury would
10 see one and thenthree and wonder what happened to two.
11 But...
12 THE COURT: Just trying to keep the record a little
13 less confused. So, anyway, you want to mark this as
14 what?
15 MR. WAY: If we could just proffer.
16 THE COURT: Well, why -- we'll make this Defense
17 Exhibit 3 and --
18 MR. WAY: Yes, sir.
19 THE COURT: -- and mark your order to compel as two.
20 Just change thetag on it. So...
21 MR. WAY: I did, Your Honor.
22 THE COURT: So what we've been talking about now has
23 been as to DefenseExhibit 3. i sustained the objection.
24 Make sure,Kathy, that does not go to the jury --
25 THE CLERK: Yes, sir.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 543
1 THE COURT: -- but make it part of the record for
2 purposes of any appeal. Okay?
3 THE CLERK: Yes, sir.
4 MR. FUCHS: You got more?
5 Your Honor, given that ruling and given the State
6 would make an ore tenus motion to exclude Christin
7 Gonzalez, who was the attorney that represented
8 Ms. Williams during the course of the trial. Any
9 testimony that she could offer --
10 THE COURT: Mr. Way.
11 MR. FUCHS: Any testimony that she could offer would
12 be either hearsay, the statements made by Ms. Williams to
13 her or were to rely upon other statements of hearsay,
14 out -of -court statements offered for the truth of the
15 matter asserted. I don't believe there's any direct
16 testimony that she can offer as it relates to the charges
17 faced for Ms. Williams being conspiracy to commit murder,
18 the murder, and the accessory after the fact as the case
19 has been laid out by the State.
20 THE COURT: Mr. Way.
21 MR. WAY: Your Honor, the -- it's clear that the
22 divorce is part and parcel of the State's case -in -chief.
23 Ms. Gonzalez's testimony is relevant to establish the
24 pendency of the divorce, the nature of Mr. Winchester's
25 noncompliance in the divorce, her knowledge of the case,
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 544
1 and the docket is from her own personal experience in
2 having to deal with Mr. winchester as a pro se litigant
3 in this case, up until the time he retained counsel. As
4 it relates to -- and may I approach, Your Honor?
5 THE COURT: You may.
6 MR. WAY: I'm going to show you what is marked now
7 as Defense Exhibit --
8 THE COURT: Two.
9 MR. WAY: -- 2. This was the order we talked about
10 yesterday with Mr. Winchester related to his
11 noncompliance with Judge Francis' order. Mr. Winchester
12 specifically testified he was confronted with the fact
13 that he was ordered and compelled to continue to
14 participate in the divorce. And thereafter he kidnapped
15 my client at gunpoint.
16 Ms. Gonzalez can testify to what she knows, what
17 she's done as the attorney of record, how sheTs
18 participated in the case. The information that she
19 gathers is -- can be information that she gathers from
20 her own work review, preparation, as well as what she has
21 determined in court. I don't think we can blanket say
22 that everything she would know as a lawyer in this cause,
23 the divorce cause, would all be hearsay.
24 She would certainly know her client's financial
25 position from independent review in preparation for
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 545
1 court, just as any lawyer should know what their clients
2 may or may not say. she would also know what
3 Mr. winchester's positions would be based on the court
4 filings.
5 THE COURT: well,I mean, I can't say there's
6 nothing she can testify to, but it's very similar to the
7 lead investigator in a criminal case. They may know a
8 whole lot. They gathered a whole lot of information, but
9 it's all hearsay.
10 So what, what would she testify about that's not
11 hearsay information that she gathered from someone else?
12 Or if you have some inconsistent statement by
13 Mr. Winchester. of course that's fair game. So what,
14 what do you have that she would testify to that's not
15 hearsay?
16 MR. WAY: well, I'd certainly ask her if
17 Mr. Winchester was complying with the court order. She
18 would know, as the attorney, that he wasn't. I don't
19 believe that's hearsay.
20 THE COURT: And why is that relevant?
21 MR. WAY: It's relevant to go to the prep --
22 Mr. Winchester's testimony yesterday was that he was in
23 the divorce. He didn't want to be in the divorce. The
24 order to compel is a precipitating incident, we believe,
25 to why he went and kidnapped Mr. Winchester at gunpoint.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 546
1 The order specifies that he was not in compliance with an
2 earlier order he was awarded.
3 THE COURT: okay. well, let me interrupt for one
4 second, please.
5 is the State objecting to the order to compel?
6 MR. FUCHS: No, Your Honor.
7 THE COURT: Okay. So the order to compel is coming
8 in.
9 MR. WAY: Okay.
10 THE COURT: Beyond that.
11 MR. WAY: Beyond that, Your Honor, Ms. Win --
12 Ms. Gonzalez would know, as a matter of fact, that there
13 were segregated premarital assets that were not at issue
14 in the family law case and could not be adjudicated in
15 the family law case. Part of that is -- was raised by
16 Mr. winchester's testimony that I believe he testified
17 that Ms. Williams kept things in her name and she had her
18 own assets.
19 And in the course of the divorce, the lawyer would
20 know that there was, in fact, nonmarital assets that were
21 excluded from how the case was distributed. That's not
22 hearsay. That's the lawyer doing their lawyer's own
23 research to determine what's part and parcel of their
24 action.
25 THE COURT: You say it's not hearsay. I mean, what
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 547
1 it is is based on what the bank tells her is in the
2 account or what the stocks -- stockbrokers tell them is
3 in the account. How, how is it not hearsay?
4 MR. WAY: well, it, perhaps, Your Honor, would be
5 very similar to -- when the lawyer makes the preparation,
6 it would be very similar to the evidence that was
7 introduced yesterday from the insurance records.
8 THE COURT: Good example.
9 MR. WAY: There are-- there was information that's
10 compiled. Mr.Longsland[sic] doesn't know what happened
11 in 2000 but he'sable toreview records. He's avai --
12 you know, he'savailablebased on his training and
13 experience to say, this is what these records are.
14 Additionally, in Ms. Gonzalez's case, her financial
15 affidavit and/or the order would also be part of her
16 business records. They would have been retained by her
17 in her normal, ordinary course of business. So very much
18 like the exhibits introduced yesterday, it's numbers that
19 don't particularly, in that case, speak for themselves
20 but reflect a certain circumstance.
21 THE COURT: All right. I think the better -- the
22 comparison would be like the insurance person. That's a
23 good example. He was a custodian of the records. And if
24 we had someone here from the bank saying Ms. Winchester
25 had x amount of money in the bank and produced those
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 records, then, yes, that would not be hearsay.
2 Now, I'm not sure it's relevant, but it wouldn't be
3 hearsay. But for her lawyer to go to the bank and find
4 out how much money she has, that's hearsay. So maybe at
5 the appropriate time we'll take a proffer of
6 Ms. Gonzalez's testimony. It doesnTt sound to me like
7 much, if any, of it is going to be admissible. And I'm
8 not going to get before this jury to try a divorce case.
9 I think to the extent Mr. winchester denied
10 anything, that certainly is fair game. But my
11 recollection is he was pretty straightforward in his
12 answers about what was going on in the divorce. I don't
13 think he denied that he was subject to compulsion.
14 And -- anyway, we'll take a proffer of her testimony at
15 the appropriate time.
16 MR. WAY: And additionally offer, if I could, if the
17 Court is so inclined, I would attempt to offer her as an
18 expert in attempt to elicit an opinion as to the
19 financial position, given her experience and training.
20 THE COURT: she's not an expert in financial matters
21 and that -- you can't get around the hearsay by calling
22 them as an expert. All right. I -- we'll take a proffer
23 of her testimony --
24 MR. WAY: All right.
25 THE COURT: -- at the appropriate time.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 549
1 Anyotherissues?
2 MR.FUCHS: No, Your Honor.
3 THECOURT: Okay.
4 MR.WAY: No, Your Honor.
5 THECOURT: You want your --
6 MR.WAY: Yes.
7 THECOURT: -- motion to compel order -- motion to
8 compel back?
9 MR.WAY: Thank you, Your Honor.
10 THECOURT: Okay. Where do we stand on jurors?
11 THEBAILIFF: We have them.
12 THECOURT: yeah. Why don't we -- about five
13 minutes give y'allenough to run to the restroom and be
14 ready?
15 MR.FUCHS: Thank you, Your Honor.
16 THECOURT: We'll start in five minutes.
17 (Briefrecess.)
18 THEBAILIFF: All rise. Court is back in session.
19 THECOURT: Let's have a jury, please.
20 (Jury enters.)
21 THECOURT: EXCept for the witness, everybody have a
22 seat, please.
23 Ma'am, ifyou would face the clerk and be sworn,
24 please. Raiseyour right hand.
25 whereupon,
VERONICAG. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 550
1 KATHERINE THOMAS
2 was called as a witness, having been first duly sworn, was
3 examined and testfled as follows:
4 THE COURT: You can have a seat.
5 Good morning, folks. Thank you for being back here
6 this morning. we're really reverberating. I need to
7 keep my voice down. I don't have control over the volume
8 in this courtroom. It's a little odd. In the courtroom
9 I normally control that. The volume control is right
10 here. So if it seems a little funny on the volume,
11 it's -- well, we're going to cut it down?
12 MR. FUCHS: A little bit.
13 THE COURT: All right. The other day we happened to
14 hit the wrong button and muted a bunch of the speakers.
15 So I'm not touching it anymore.
16 You may proceed, Mr. Rogers.
17 MR. FUCHS: Thank you, Judge.
18 DIRECT EXAMINATION
19 BY MR. ROGERS:
20 Q Ma'am, can you please state and spell your name for
21 Madam Court Reporter?
22 A Katherine, K -A -T -H -E -R -I -N -E, Thomas, T -H -O -M -A -S.
23 Q Ms. Thomas, do you currently live in Tallahassee?
24 A No.
25 Q where do you live?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 551
1 A I live in North Carolina.
2 Q okay. At some point did you live in Tallahassee?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Did you grow up in Tallahassee?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Do you know who Mike williams is?
7 A Yes.
8 Q How do you know Mike williams?
9 A I know Mike Williams. we met in elementary school.
10 Q what elementary school?
11 A North Florida Christian.
12 Q okay. So how long did you know Mike?
13 A I met him when we were in fifth grade. And so I
14 knew himfrom then and until he passed away.
15 Q okay. were you friends with Mike?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Can you describe that friendship? Were you just
18 friends? Did you ever date? Anything like that?
19 A we were friends. we did date, like, went together,
20 you know. When we dated, we couldn't drive so -- but we
21 remainedfriends throughout, you know, our growing up.
22 Q were you friends after high school?
23 A Yes.
24 Q okay. Do you know who Denise Williams is?
25 A Yes.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 552
1 Q when did you first meet Denise Williams? And what
2 was hername at that point?
3 A Her -- I met Denise Merrell in ninth grade at North
4 FloridaChristian school. we went to high school together.
5 Q were you friends?
6 A we were friends. we, we werenTt best friends in
7 high school but we were friends. we cheer -- cheered together
8 and -- itwas a small school, so, you know, everyone knew each
9 other pretty well . And we were friends.
10 Q Now, did Mike and Denise date in high school?
11 A Yes. They did.
12 Q Okay. And they eventually got married; is that
13 right?
14 A That's correct.
15 Q Do you know who Brian Winchester is?
16 A Yes.
17 Q whoTs Brian Winchester?
18 A Brian winchester, I met him in ninth grade, also at
19 North Florida. And we started dating when I was -- we were
20 juniors. we were both juniors in high school. And then we
21 eventuallygot married, also.
22 Q when did you get married?
23 A We got married in 1994, May of 1994.
24 Q And were Mike and Denise married around that same
25 time frame?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 553
1 A uh-huh. They were married in December. But, but,
2 yes, withinthe same year.
3 Q Okay.
4 A yeah.
5 Q Now, did y'all do things together?
6 A we did. uh-huh.
7 Q As couples.
8 A Yes. Yes.
9 Q Can you describe some of the things that you did
10 togetheras couples, at that point?
11 A well, we would do things like go out to eat. we
12 would goto movies. You know, the normal just kind of like,
13 you know-- if something, you know, a movie or dinner. You
14 know, justkind of like couple dates type stuff. we --
15 Q Double dating with a --
16 A Double dating. Right. Yes. And we would do --
17 both Brian,Mike would hunt and fish. And so Denise and I
18 would tagalong. You know, we would do those sorts of things,
19 go to thecoast and, you know, go on a dove hunt or -- you
20 know, justthings like this. we did couple things like that
21 together.
22 Q Now, you and Brian had a son together; is that
23 right?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And when was your son born?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 554
1 A He was born in February of 1999.
2 Q And Denise and Mike had a daughter.
3 A Correct.
4 Q And was -- Anslee was born around the same time as
5 your son?
6 A She was born in May of '99.
7 Q Okay. At some point, your marriage to Brian
8 winchesterstarted to have some problems; is that fair to say?
9 A Yes. That -- yes. That's correct.
10 Q You eventually separated.
11 A Correct.
12 Q when did you separate?
13 A we separated September 11th, 9/11 of --
14 Q of 2001.
15 A 2001. Correct.
16 Q Okay. And when did you finally finalize the
17 divorce?
18 A The divorce was final in 2004, April of 2000 --
19 April of2003. I'm sorry.
20 Q Okay. Ms. Thomas, you're a little nervous today,
21 aren't you?
22 A I am a little bit nervous.
23 Q Okay. And this is hard to talk about, fair?
24 A uh-huh. Yes.
25 Q Did you suspect that Brian Winchester, your husband,
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 555
1 was having an affair with Denise Williams?
2 A I did suspect that.
3 I want to take you back to December of1999. This
4 is beforeyou're separated --
5 A Okay.
6 Q -- right?
7 A (Nods head.)
8 Q Did you receive a phone call from theTallahassee
9 police Department?
10 A Yes.
11 Q what was that phone call in referenceto?
12 A It was in reference to -- there was apolice officer
13 who was standingat Brian's truck and she said,you know,
14 ma'am, I'mhere. Your truck is in this parkinglot. And she
15 was just,like, doing a call, sort of like thistruck is here.
16 And I guessshe had looked at the registrationand saw that it
17 was ours. And so she was at Brian's truck.
18 Q And she gave a description of the truckto you?
19 A she did because --
20 Q And did that match everything, down --
21 A Yes. Yes. She, she -- I was, like,that -- you
22 know, it,it can't be. And she said, well, ithas a bumper
23 sticker,you know, this bumper sticker, this bumpersticker,
24 this bumpersticker. And so I was like, well,yes, that is
25 our vehicle.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 556
1 Q well, you just said it can't be. why did this --
2 why couldn'tit be Brian's truck?
3 A Brian had told me that he was in Arkansas hunting.
4 And so iwas confused as to why she was telling me that she
5 was at thetruck, because I had been told by Brian that he was
6 in Arkansas--
7 Q okay.
8 A -- with the truck hunting.
9 Q Now, were you told the location of the truck? was
10 it at achurch?
11 A Yes. It was, it was at a church, Grace Church. Or
12 Grace isin the name. I'm not sure the whole name.
13 Q Generally located, was that close to where Denise
14 williamswas living at the time?
15 A Yes.
16 Q where was Denise Williams living at the time?
17 A she was living at Cen -- on Centennial Oaks Drive.
18 Q I want to fast -forward a little bit. I now want to
19 talk toyou about a trip that you took to Panama City. Do you
20 remembera trip like that?
21 A Yes.
22 Q who went on that trip?
23 Actually, letTs start with this. Who was supposed
24 to go onthat trip?
25 A It was supposed to be the four of us. It was
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 557
1 supposed to be me and Brian and Denise and Mike.
2 Q what was the purpose of the trip? why were you
3 going toPanama City?
4 A It was supposed to be like a birthday trip.
5 Q whose birthday were we celebrating?
6 A Denise's 30th birthday.
7 Q Okay. And so she was born in 1970; is that right?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And so her 30th birthday would have been when?
10 A 2000.
11 Q Okay. Do you know what month we're talking about
12 that thiswas, that the trip was planned?
13 A It, it, would have been, you know, spring, March or
14 April.
15 Q Okay.
16 A You know, I don't know how the weekends would have
17 lined upbut --
18 Q springtime of 2000.
19 A Correct.
20 Q And what was the plan? were you meeting someplace
21 and drivingover together or what?
22 A The plan was for Mike and Denise to come over to our
23 house onMinnow Creek Drive, and we were going to all drive
24 togetherover there.
25 Q And --
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 558
1 A To Panama City.
2 Q Did Mike show up?
3 A No.
4 Q Did Denise show up?
5 A Yes.
6 Q were you informed that Mike wasn't going?
7 A Yes.
8 Q How did that make you feel?
9 A I didn't want to go. I --
10 Q why?
11 A Because, at that point in our lives, whenever it was
12 just mewith Brian and Denise, it was uncomfortable. I felt
13 like a thirdwheel. I felt like I was on a date with the two
14 of them.
15 Q okay. So how did you respond to the idea of going
16 to Panamacity with Denise and your husband?
17 A I said if Mike doesn't have to go,I donTt have to
18 go either. I didn't want to go. And I had,I guess, sort of
19 a littletantrum and I ran inside and I locked myself in the
20 bathroomand I said I'm not going.
21 Q But you eventually went.
22 A I did.
23 Q why did you go?
24 A Just because, as I was there in the bathroom, they
25 were onthe other side just talking me into going.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 559
1 Q Okay.
2 A And...
3 Q So let's talk about the trip itself. when you got
4 there, doyou remember going out to clubs?
5 A Ido.
6 Q Okay. Do you remember going to a strip club?
7 A Ido.
8 Q Was Brian and Denise both present for that?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Did you drink a lot that weekend or that -- on that
11 trip?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Do you remember having photographs taken of you?
14 A I don't remember specifically the moments that that.
15 But wheni saw the photograph, I,I knew what it was.
16 Q who took the picture?
17 A Brian did.
18 Q Do you remember any other details of what happened
19 after thosephotographs would have been taken?
20 A I don't. I don't remember specifically a lot about
21 that weekend.
22 Q Now, at some point did you find some movie tickets?
23 A i did.
24 Q Did that increase your suspicion that Brian was
25 having anaffair?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 560
1 A Yes, it did.
2 Q where did you find the movie tickets?
3 A I found them in his wallet.
4 Q In whose wallet?
5 A I found them in Brian's wallet.
6 Q Okay.
7 A I found two movie tickets.
8 Q what was the movie that the tickets were for?
9 A It was for a movie called The virgin Suicides.
10 Q And jUst to be clear, are these used tickets or
11 ticketsthat you bought beforehand?
12 A They were used tickets.
13 Q Okay.
14 A And I knew I had not gone to see the movie. So I --
15 it waslike they --
16 Q That raised, that raised your suspicions?
17 A Yes. It was like...
18 Q what does the name Meridian mean to you?
19 A Meridian is a name that when we would, like, go out,
20 it wasa name that kind of became a party name for Denise.
21 Q okay. who came up with the name?
22 A I cannot remember specifically whose idea it was.
23 She livedon Meridian Road at that time. And we had gone to a
24 concertat The Moon. And at the end of the concert, you
25 could,like, go up to the band and they would sign a CD or
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 561
1 whatever. And that night, you know, she had them -- she was
2 like, oh,say to Meridian. You know, so they signed it. I
3 rememberthem signing it to her. So it just kind of
4 became...
5 Q So you've seen Denise use the name Meridian before.
6 A Yes.
7 Q Did you ever find a receipt that referenced the name
8 Meridian?
9 A I did.
10 Q Can you tell the jury where you found that receipt?
11 A I had gone into Brian's office. And this is when I
12 was contemplatingwhat my next steps would be as far as moving
13 out. wedidnTt have bills sent to our house. He would have
14 all of ourbills sent to his office. So I had gone to his
15 office oneevening, and I was just looking through his desk
16 drawers,just trying to find out information about our
17 financiallife.
18 Q And you came across a receipt?
19 A And I came across the receipt.
20 MR. ROGERS: Judge, may I approach the witness?
21 THE COURT: You may.
22 BY MR. ROGERS:
23 Q Ms. Thomas, ITm going to show you what ITve marked
24 as State'sExhibit 20. is this the receipt that you're
25 talking about?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 562
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q Is that a fair and accurate copy of that receipt?
3 A Yes, it is.
4 MR. ROGERS: Judge, I would offer State's Exhibit 20
5 intoevidence at this time.
6 THE COURT: Any objection?
7 MR. WAY: A little more foundation on the date of
8 thereceipt, Your Honor.
9 MR. ROGERS: Sure, Judge.
10 BY MR. ROGERS:
11 Q There's a date on the receipt. what is the date on
12 that?
13 A It says 07/28/01.
14 Q Okay. Is that during the time that you just
15 testifiedto?
16 A Yes.
17 MR. ROGERS: Judge, I would offer State's Exhibit
18 20.
19 THE COURT: Further objection? I didn't hear you.
20 MR. WAY: No objection.
21 THE COURT: All right. It will be admitted without
22 objection.
23 (State's Exhibit No. 20 received in evidence.)
24 MR. ROGERS: Permission to publish, Your Honor.
25 THE COURT: You may.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 563
1 BY MR. ROGERS:
2 Q Now, Ms. Thomas, this is a -- obviously a copy and
3 we can'tflip over the, the first part of the receipt; is that
4 right?
5 A That's correct.
6 MR. ROGERS: Judge, do you have a laser pointer?
7 THE COURT: I do.
8 BY MR.ROGERS:
9 Q Can you point out the date of -- the area that the
10 date isfound?
11 A Right there.
12 Q Right there? Okay.
13 where was this receipt from?
14 MR. ROGERS: May I approach the witness, Judge?
15 THE COURT: You may.
16 BY MR.ROGERS:
17 Q i know it's kind of hard to read it up there.
18 A It's from The Gold Center.
19 Q Okay.
20 THE COURT: From? I didn't hear you.
21 THE WITNESS: The Gold Center.
22 BY MR.ROGERS:
23 Q And you were able to, actually, at one point, look
24 at theentire receipt; is that fair?
25 A Yes.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 564
1 Q what was the receipt for?
2 A It was for a necklace. And It was during a time
3 when itwas kind of popular to have a name on a -- like a gold
4 name. And it was the name Meridian. It, it was like a
5 necklacewith the name Meridian. So I knew what that was.
6 And that'swhat the receipt was for, was for one of those
7 necklaces.
8 Q And that date is July -- late July of 2001.
9 A Correct.
10 Q That's before you separated from Brian winchester;
11 is thatright?
12 A Yes. That's correct.
13 Q And you separated from Brian Winchester
14 approximately-- about a month after that.
15 A uh-huh.
16 Q A month and a half?
17 A Right. uh-huh.
18 THE COURT: She's trying to take down what you say.
19 So--
20 THE WITNESS: oh.
21 THE COURT: -- if you'll say yes or no. It will --
22 THE WITNESS: Okay.
23 THE COURT: -- assist her, please.
24 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
25 BY MR.ROGERS:
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 565
1 Q And, ultimately, you divorced Brian winchester.
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q i want to fast -forward now to August of 2016. were
4 you awarethat Brian winchester kidnapped Denise williams, who
5 was thenDenise winchester?
6 A Yes.
7 Q After that occurred, did you have conversations with
8 Denise Williamsabout what occurred?
9 A Yes.
10 Q About a week after that incident, that kidnapping,
11 did Deniseask you to do something?
12 A Yes.
13 Q what did she ask you to do?
14 A Denise asked me to tell Marcus to get a message to
15 Brian thatI'm not talking.
16 Q That was a week, approximately, after the
17 kidnapping.
18 A Yes.
19 Q Sometime after that, did you start communicating
20 with theFlorida Department of Law Enforcement?
21 A Yes.
22 (Off-the-record discussion.)
23 BY MR. ROGERS:
24 Q Let me go back. who's Marcus?
25 A Marcus is Brian winchester's father, Marcus
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 566
1 winchester.
2 Q okay. when you say, I'm not talking, is it
3 referring that Kathy Thomas is not talking, or Denise Williams
4 is not talking?
5 A That Denise was not talking. she wanted me to tell
6 Marcus to tell Brian that she wasn't talking. And she said,
7 I'm not talking. But that was her saying that to me.
8 Q Okay. After that, at some point, did you start
9 having communications with Florida Department of Law
10 Enforcement, FDLE?
11 A Yes.
12 Q was there anyone in particular that you started
13 communicating with?
14 A William Mickler.
15 Q okay.
16 A And Mike Devaney.
17 Q And at some point after that, did you agree to start
18 working as a confidential source?
19 A Yes, I did.
20 Q As part of that, were you given a way to make
21 recordings?
22 A Yes.
23 Q After that, did you ever confront Denise about what
24 she asked you to do that week after the kidnapping?
25 A Yes, I did.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 567
1 Q Did you record that conservation?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 MR. ROGERS: Judge, may I approach?
4 THE COURT: You may.
5 BY MR. ROGERS:
6 Q Ms. Thomas, ITm showing you what I've marked as
7 State's Exhibit 16. This is a recording. Did you have a
8 chance toreview this in our office before your testimony
9 today?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Is that a fair and accurate depiction of the
12 recordingthat you made?
13 A Yes.
14 MR. ROGERS: Judge, I would offer State's Exhibit 16
15 intoevidence at this time.
16 THE COURT: Any objection?
17 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
18 THE COURT: It will be admitted.
19 (State's Exhibit No. 16 received in evidence.)
20 MR. ROGERS: Permission to publish, Your Honor.
21 THE COURT: You may.
22 (State's Exhibit No. 16 is published as follows):
23 MS. THOMAS: And I'm headed over to my mom's to --
24 I'vegot a test tonight and so I'm --
25 MS. WILLIAMS: uh-huh.
VERONICAG. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER .:
1 MS. THOMAS: -- going to study and meet over there.
2 I think we're going to be coming to the house. I'm just
3 going to meet over there.
4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
5 MS. THOMAS: Right.
6 MS. WILLIAMS: So you're driving back. So does that
7 mean Max is worse or you were heading back anyway
8 or...
9 MS. THOMAS: well, I was headed back anyways but
10 this way if --
11 THE COURT: If we can pause it for a second. Can
12 you pause it for one second?
13 (State's Exhibit No. 16 is paused.)
14 THE COURT: I think we ought to have her identify
15 who's talking so the jury can follow it a little bit
16 better.
17 BY MR. ROGERS:
18 Q There's two people on this recording; is that right?
19 A Yes.
20 Q One voice is yours.
21 A Yes.
22 Q And who's the other voice?
23 A Denise.
24 THE COURT: Okay.
25 (State's Exhibit No. 16 continues as follows):
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 569
1 MS. WILLIAMS: Anyway, it was in there.
2 MS. THOMAS: I did. I got the CD. It was in my
3 purse.
4 MS. WILLIAMS: (Inaudible) would not shut up. So I
5 could not even talk to you.
6 MS. THOMAS: yeah. I know.
7 MS. WILLIAMS: I was just, like, I'll stick it in
8 your purse.
9 MS. THOMAS: Hang on one second. I just got in the
10 car. I just stopped to get coffee. Let me get --
11 (State's Exhibit No. 16 is paused.)
12 BY MR. ROGERS:
13 Q That person who just said,I just got in the car.
14 just got to get coffee, whose voice is that?
15 A That was me.
16 Q Okay. So the other voice is Denise.
17 A That's right.
18 (State's Exhibit No. 16 continues as follows):
19 MS. WILLIAMS: All right.
20 MS. THOMAS: Okay. So I am -- it's starting to
21 mist, again. This is going to be, like, a miserable
22 drive.
23 MS. WILLIAMS: oh.
24 MS. THOMAS: So I'm kind of freaking out about this
25 subpoena.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 570
1 MS. WILLIAMS: I'm sure. when is it?
2 MS. THOMAS: It's February 22nd.
3 (State's Exhibit No. 16 is paused):
4 BY MR. ROGERS:
5 Q The person who is talking about a subpoena, that was
6 your voice, right?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And the person who said, I'm sure, that's Denise
9 williams' voice.
10 A That's correct.
11 Q Okay. When you're talking about a subpoena, what
12 are you talking about?
13 A well, as one of the things that, as a confidential
14 source that William Mickler -- you know, we were going to say
15 that I had received a subpoena so that, that was going to be a
16 subpoena for me to have to talk to Mr. Devaney about, you
17 know, the case. I had,I had received a subpoena from Mike
18 Devaney and this was all under the --
19 Q That never -- so that never happened.
20 A That never happened. That was part of, part of
21 being the confidential source.
22 Q That's how we're getting to everything to --
23 A Correct.
24 Q -- to bring up the subject.
25 A To bring up the subject, correct. For me to talk to
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 571
1 her and say, I've got -- I have receivedthis subpoena. I'm
2 going to have to talk about this. And thisconservation is us
3 talking about what I'm going to be sayingin that supposed
4 subpoena.
5 Q Okay.
6 (State's Exhibit No. 16 continuesas follows):
7 MS. WILLIAMS: Come back to it,like, you have to
8 travel and you -- I mean, they can'tdo it up there, all
9 that kind of stuff?
10 MS. THOMAS: well, the attorneythat I talked to,
11 he's just like a mortgage attorney.
12 MS. WILLIAMS: yeah.
13 MS. THOMAS: So he said -- he'slike, you know, I
14 could call -- he's like, I don't dothis but I could call
15 and see if you could do it over -- youknow, he's like,
16 you would have to go somewhere whereyou would get sworn
17 in because the whole --
18 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
19 MS. THOMAS: -- thing is like gettingsworn in.
20 MS. WILLIAMS: yeah. yeah.
21 MS. THOMAS: So I was like, allright. well, you
22 know, just let me kind of figure outwhat I'm going to
23 do.
24 MS. WILLIAMS: Because Andy hadsaid that to you,
25 remember, when you were going to getdepositioned.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 572
1 MS. THOMAS: yeah.
2 MS. WILLIAMS: That was a subpoena, too.
3 MS. THOMAS: Right.
4 MS. WILLIAMS: But I don't know if they ever did it.
5 But.
6 MS. THOMAS: No, no. They didn't ever do it.
7 MS. WILLIAMS: I just can't imagine that -- what if
8 somebody lived in Alaska or another country? You know, I
9 don't know, whatever.
10 MS. THOMAS: well, here's, here's my problem. And
11 I'm, I'm going to get upset here. But my problem is that
12 I can't really talk to Rocky about any of this.
13 MS. WILLIAMS: Uh-huh.
14 (State's Exhibit No. 16 is paused):
15 BY MR. ROGERS:
16 Q Who's Rocky?
17 A He's my husband. My current husband.
18 Q Okay. Thank you.
19 (State's Exhibit No. 16 continues as follows):
20 MS. THOMAS: Because I know, I know they're wanting
21 to talk to me about Mike. And,I mean, over the time
22 that we've been married, I've always just pretended like
23 I don't know anything.
24 MS. WILLIAMS: uh-huh.
25 MS. THOMAS: And,I mean, I do know.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 573
1 MS. WILLIAMS: What do you know?
2 MS. THOMAS: well , do you remember back when all of
3 that happened with you and Brian and Chuck in Atlanta?
4 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
5 MS. THOMAS: well, Brian called me at the shop
6 crying and --
7 MS. WILLIAMS: Before or after?
8 MS. THOMAS: -- mad. Well, I -- you know, I don't
9 know, because I didn'tknow all of that had happened
10 until Chuck wroteme a letter.
11 MS. WILLIAMS: uh-huh.
12 MS. THOMAS: But Brian had figured out that you were
13 cheating on him withChuck. And he just told me about
14 Mike.
15 MS. WILLIAMS: What did he say? He called you upset
16 about Chuck, and then he wanted to talk about Mike.
17 MS. THOMAS: He was mad at you.
18 MS. WILLIAMS: uh-huh.
19 MS. THOMAS: And so he told me. He told me about
20 what happened to Mike.
21 MS. WILLIAMS: Well,I would love to know what
22 happened to Mike. He never told me. They said they
23 found his remainsand that he was beaten or that he was
24 shot.
25 MS. THOMAS: Brian told me that y'all planned it.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 574
1 MS. WILLIAMS: Planned what? oh, my gosh.
2 MS. THOMAS: And Marcus showed up at the shop later
3 that afternoon.
4 MS. WILLIAMS: Uh-huh.
5 MS. THOMAS: You know, telling me how I would have
6 to take this to my grave, that it would --
7 MS. WILLIAMS: Wait, wait, wait. So --
8 MS. THOMAS: -- ruin --
9 MS. WILLIAMS: -- Marcus --
10 MS. THOMAS: -- life. It would ruin -- you know,
11 apparently, Briantold Marcus that he had talked to me
12 and he went on tojust tell me -- Marcus went on to tell
13 me how my life would be ruined, how I would never be able
14 to start over. If Stafford's life was ruined, if...
15 MS. WILLIAMS: So Marcus knew? And when you said
16 Brian said y'all,you're talking about me and Brian or
17 Marcus or who?
18 MS. THOMAS: You and Brian. And whenever --
19 MS. WILLIAMS: And Marcus end up -- Marcus is
20 involved? I mean,obviously, if he came and talked to
21 you.
22 MS. THOMAS: well, it's just the whole --
23 MS. WILLIAMS: obviously, he's never talked to me.
24 MS. THOMAS: -- you know, shut it down -- shut down.
25 So, you know, whenever.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 575
1 MS. WILLIAMS: What in the world?
2 MS. THOMAS: I mean, it's, it's, it's --
3 MS. WILLIAMS: And then you got a letter from Chuck.
4 My parents got a letter, too. But you got a letter from
5 Chuck, and he's talking about it, too, or no?
6 MS. THOMAS: Chuck told me what happened in Atlanta.
7 MS. WILLIAMS: In Atlanta. okay. yeah.
8 MS. THOMAS: So here's the deal. Here is the deal.
9 Hang on. SomebodyTs texting me. Rex is not doing well.
10 MS. WILLIAMS: Aw. Yeah. That's pretty major,
11 especially with Marcus involved.
12 MS. THOMAS: well, I mean, I know that you know
13 something, Denise, because whenever I was going out to
14 see Marcus, you're like, tell Marcus to tell Brian I'm
15 not talking.
16 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
17 MS. THOMAS: And I knew what that meant.
18 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, that's why -- because what
19 they'd been doing is they've been lying to me and they've
20 been lying to them. And, obviously, I mean, because you
21 told me the thing about him saying what I wrote in the
22 letter to the judge, which I didn't. And so they're
23 playing everybody against each other. That, you know,
24 that --
25 MS. THOMAS: Here's the thing. Here's the thing.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 576
1 don't even care about all that anymore, because time has
2 moved on. Mike is in heaven. So here is my problem.
3 Here is, like, my problem. And Rocky doesn't know any of
4 this. Rocky doesnTt know that I know. And all these
5 years, anytime anything ever came up about Mike, I just
6 sit with my mouth shut. He never would have married me
7 if he had known.
8 MS. WILLIAMS: This has nothing to do with you.
9 MS. THOMAS: It has everything -- I had been lying
10 to him for 15 years.
11 MS. WILLIAMS: But you're talking about something --
12 Chuck happened years later. So then you're saying that
13 years later Brian told you something. Marcus came to
14 you. So two people came to you to talk to you about this
15 years after it happened. Had you even -- had you met
16 Rocky then?
17 MS. THOMAS: Yes.
18 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, but that has -- that, that --
19 what that has to do with is two people telling you
20 something. That has nothing to do with you and anything
21 that you did or anything that you didn't do. You know, I
22 mean, it doesn't. And there's nothing you can't tell
23 Rocky. I know that. I'm sure of that. So that's why
24 you were talking about losing your family.
25 MS. THOMAS: I am going to lose my family.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 577
1 MS. WILLIAMS: oh.
2 MS. THOMAS: if I lie, if I lie whenever they ask me
3 do you know what happened to Mike, if I lie --
4 MS. WILLIAMS: What are you --
5 MS. THOMAS: -- then now, now what happens? And
6 then when I go home and Rocky says, why didn't you ever
7 say anything? Like, how, how do I explain that? How do
8 I explain that I just decided to forget it? He never
9 would have married me.
10 MS. WILLIAMS: I don't believe that. That has --
11 because, because you didn't -- it has nothing to do with
12 you.
13 MS. THOMAS: Because I know. He hates lying.
14 MS. WILLIAMS: Well --
15 MS. THOMAS: I've never lied to him about anything.
16 But every time that anything comes up about Mike,I
17 just -- that is a lie. It is --
18 MS. WILLIAMS: Well, that you didn't, you didn't
19 tell him what Brian told you --
20 MS. THOMAS: Right.
21 MS. WILLIAMS: -- and you didnTt tell him what
22 Marcus told you.
23 MS. THOMAS: Right.
24 MS. WILLIAMS: So, again, it's two things that two
25 people told you. But it's not you. It's not -- he fell
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 578
1 in love with you. It's not you.
2 MS. THOMAS: well , what am I supposed to do when
3 they ask me?
4 MS. WILLIAMS: I, I, I mean --
5 MS. THOMAS: what am I supposed to do?
6 MS. WILLIAMS: Was he pushing -- he was pushing you
7 on the phone about it? Is that what you were saying?
8 MS. THOMAS: Yeah. Rocky is like, why do you have
9 this? why do they want to talk to you?
10 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, my guess was because you were
11 married to Brian at the time. You knew Brian. I'm
12 guessing that -- I don't know. I mean, if all this is
13 tied to this guy that he talked to, then I'm guessing
14 he'd want to talk to you because you were friends with
15 us.
16 But,I mean -- but this -- again, it has nothing to
17 do with Rocky or your girls or your family, nothing,
18 nothing. They weren't even around then. And you werenTt
19 either. This is years later. Because I'm trying to
20 think. It was three, at least three years later when I
21 was with Chuck.
22 And, I mean, Rocky's not going to -- it's not that
23 you kept this lie that people told you. If you decide to
24 tell him, he's going to be fine. If you don't, he's not
25 going to -- you're not going to -- he's not going to be
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 579
1 like, we're getting a divorce. I mean, there's no way.
2 There's no way. And if you would have told him back
3 then, when y'all were engaged or getting engaged or
4 whatever, it still had nothing to him meeting you, him
5 falling in love with you, him wanting to marry you, your
6 family. It has to do with Brian and Marcus. You know
7 what I'm saying?
8 So it's February 22nd; is that what you said?
9 MS. THOMAS: uh-huh.
10 MS. WILLIAMS: Is it a trial? Because it said a
11 witness something. I didn't understand what that term
12 meant, because I got subpoenas before for depositions.
13 MS. THOMAS: It's at home. I don't have it with me.
14 It's --
15 MS. WILLIAMS: oh.
16 MS. TODMAN: It just says, like, I have to go down
17 to the State Attorney's Office at ten o'clock in the
18 morning.
19 MS. WILLIAMS: The State Attorney. yeah. Because
20 that's where I think -- that's where I have to go, too.
21 And you and Marcus, have y'all ever spoken since? Has he
22 ever said anything to you since?
23 MS. THOMAS: No. It's just been understood that,
24 you know, if I ever said anything, then everything, you
25 know, all the, all the stupid shit we ever did would --
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 everybody would know. You know, and...
2 MS. WILLIAMS: yeah.
3 MS. THOMAS: Everybody would know and wouldn't that
4 be awful when, you know, Mike's in a better place. And
5 so, you know, but -- I don't know.
6 MS. WILLIAMS: I mean, that -- him saying all that
7 to you, again, that's using fear and the unknown to try
8 to control you. I mean, it's typical -- you know.
9 MS. THOMAS: Denise, I'm just going to ask you this,
10 because I've been thinking about it. But, like, not long
11 before Mike's -- he called me. Mike called me and he had
12 found a bunch of money in your wallet. And he said, I
13 think Denise has a boyfriend. He said he found a bunch
14 of money in your wallet, a bunch of cash. And he said
15 that you told him something about Deanna, that you told
16 him that Deanna had paid you back for something. And he
17 said that --
18 MS. WILLIAMS: yeah.
19 MS. THOMAS: -- he had asked Deanna. And Deanna --
20 MS. WILLIAMS: yeah.
21 MS. THOMAS: -- said that wasnTt true.
22 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. yeah. I recall that.
23 MS. THOMAS: But I remember thinking, like, he
24 knows. He knows that Denise and Brian like each other.
25 Then, like, I've always thought to myself if I had said,
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 581
1 Mike, I think Brian has a girlfriend,I've always
2 wondered if he would still be here. Like,why couldn't
3 y'all just get a divorce? I've alwaysknown that you and
4 Brian loved each other. Brian told meone time that you
5 were his best friend and that was justthe way it was
6 always going to be. Did Mike find out?
7 MS. WILLIAMS: No. That was all-- I remember him
8 calling Deanna. I think I remember --I'm pretty sure
9 that he had told me that he had calledyou. But I know
10 for sure he called Deanna, because wetalked about it.
11 And I remember the conversation.
12 I don't remember -- I remember ustalking about it.
13 I remember that we were talking aboutCarol, because of,
14 like, the pot and stuff like that. Iremember talking
15 about that with him and -- I think Carolended up talking
16 to him because that's -- and I don't rememberhow much
17 money it was. I don't remember -- I,I do remember
18 money, and I do remember a conversationabout pot and
19 Carol and, and Deanna and everybody. He had talked to
20 Deanna, too. So I had to tell her aboutall that. So I
21 do remember that, yeah.
22 I guess I didn't know that he hadtalked to you.
23 But -- I don't know. I mean,I would-- I don't know.
24 just -- i can't do anything with the --I couldn't do
25 anything with the divorce. I couldn'tdo anything with
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 582
1 any of this without talking to an attorney. And, mainly,
2 i just talked with Becky's husband and then whoever
3 Christin tells me to talk to. But,I mean, you -- I
4 mean, that's all up to you. And telling Rocky, too, is
5 up to you. But, again, I don't --
6 MS. THOMAS: There's --
7 MS. WILLIAMS: -- I don't see him,I donTt see him
8 being like, oh, my God and, you know, I just -- but I
9 don't, I don't see him being like, we're getting a
10 divorce. And, surely, you don't see that.
11 MS. THOMAS: I do see that because I just know that,
12 like, every year that it comes up and, you know, if
13 there's something in the paper. And then I just,I just
14 know, like, every -- I know he would have said, why
15 didn't you ever tell me? I -- thatTs how he is because
16 he is good and honest. He's not like us. Hers, he's
17 good and honest. And he won't just say, if you've kept
18 this from me, what else? But if, if I go to the
19 interview and I'm --
20 MS. WILLIAMS: uh-huh.
21 MS. THOMAS: -- just like,I don't know anything, I
22 don't know anything --
23 MS. WILLIAMS: uh-huh.
24 MS. THOMAS: I mean, what if they catch me lying,
25 and then what happens?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 583
1 MS. WILLIAMS: I have no idea. I have no idea. I
2 mean, they told me that day that Brian did all that to
3 me. And they told me that we've been talking to Brian.
4 He's been saying this, that, and the other. I mean, he
5 told me all kinds of crap. And come to find out, one of
6 the attorneys told me that they went in there to talk to
7 him because they found him. And they went in there to
8 talk to him and that he -- Jansen was already there and
9 he didn't say one word. So -- I don't know.
10 So my point in telling you that is they could say,
11 oh, we know -- you know -- they can, they can say
12 whatever they want to say. And it's leading for them to
13 do that. So whether they ever say, we know you're lying
14 or we, whatever -- I mean, you don't know. You have no
15 idea if it's true or not because I usual -- I usually
16 find out later what's the actual truth. And the guy
17 asked me about you. But he just asked me about --
18 MS. THOMAS: who?
19 MS. WILLIAMS: -- our relationship or whatever.
20 That guy Mike. When he was fishing me with the --
21 MS. THOMAS: oh.
22 MS. WILLIAMS: -- when he started questioning.
23 MS. THOMAS: when you went to the police?
24 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah. But I mean, it was just what
25 was your relationship and stuff like that. It wasn't
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 anything about Marcus. Marcus' name didn't come up or
2 anything like that. well, I'm sure if they -- I would
3 guess if they're doing this to you, they're doing this to
4 Marcus. I mean, I don't know.
5 MS. THOMAS: I don't know. But this weekend that
6 I'm going to -- when I get back, I'm going to, I'm going
7 to get just like a -- like, my -- they called me while I
8 was in town. I don't know how they know I was in town.
9 And so ITm not -- I'm going to get like a -- just like a
10 throwaway phone because -- God, who knows? I mean, I
11 don't know. I'm just scared. I just feel,I just feel
12 like why do they keep calling me? Like, calling me this
13 weekend and left a message that they knew I was in town.
14 So I think that they're listening to me.
15 MS. WILLIAMS: Probably. I mean,I don't, I don't
16 know but they could be. I don't know. I mean, I
17 would -- my advice to you is just to -- is to talk to
18 Rocky.
19 MS. THOMAS: I can't. I cannot do that. I don't
20 have anywhere to go. I don't even have a job.
21 MS. WILLIAMS: I just don't think it's going to be
22 what you think it's going to be. I really don't. And I
23 don't know how you can be married to him for the next
24 however many years and not say anything if itTs bothering
25 you that bad.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 585
1 MS. THOMAS: It wasn't bothering me until I got a
2 subpoena, untilI have to do it.
3 MS. WILLIAMS: yeah. I mean, that's the only thing
4 I can think of. But I think he would then -- then it
5 could be helping you. You know? I mean, I don't think
6 that he would be like, goodbye.
7 MS. THOMAS: It is starting to rain hard. I'm going
8 to have go for a sec -- I'm going to have to go.
9 MS. WILLIAMS: But that's -- I mean, after hearing
10 all this, that's what I think. And I think that you're
11 wrong. I think that he's -- I think you're right about
12 him being a kind, good person.
13 And I think that -- I mean, these are things that
14 people told you years after Mike died. I just -- I donTt
15 think heTs going, he's going to be like, we're getting
16 divorced and never talking to you again. I really don't.
17 But thatTs -- I mean, you know him better. But I just
18 don't. I just donTt.
19 MS. THOMAS: I'm going to pull over right here.
20 MS. WILLIAMS: Be careful --
21 MS. THOMAS: All right, yeah. I got to go.
22 MS. WILLIAMS: okay. All right. Be careful . Bye.
23 MS. THOMAS: Bye.
24 (State's Exhibit No. 16 concludes.)
25 BY MR. ROGERS:
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 Q That other voice on the tape is Denise Williams,
2 right?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Do you see Denise williams in the courtroom today?
5 A Yes, I do.
6 Q Can you point her out and identify an article of
7 clothing that she's wearing?
8 A Yes. She's right over here on the -- to the right
9 of me,and she's wearing a gray sweater.
10 MR. ROGERS: MY the record reflect that the witness
11 has identified the defendant, Denise williams?
12 Nothing further.
13 THE COURT: Cross.
14 CROSS-EXAMINATION
15 BY MR.WAY:
16 Q Good morning, Ms. Thomas.
17 A Good morning.
18 Q In that tape-recording we just heard, did -- was it
19 FDLE'sidea for you to cry and be upset? Is that, that
20 natural?
21 A I don't remember having -- it -- I don't understand
22 the question, I guess.
23 Q well, you indicated that FDLE had set you up with a
24 littlebit of a script about having a subpoena.
25 A Correct.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 587
1 Q Told you as an investigative source to make calls to
2 Denise williams?
3 A Yes.
4 Q During this course of time that you were doing that,
5 how manytimes did you talk with Denise williams on the phone
6 prior torecording that particular call?
7 A As a confidential source or --
8 Q No. No.
9 A -- just in general do you mean?
10 Q well, just in general, how often would -- let me
11 help youout here. LetTs just pick a narrow time frame.
12 LetTs saybeginning January 1 of this year, 2018. okay?
13 A okay.
14 Q As i understand it, this phone call was recorded
15 when? Sometimein February of 2018?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q okay. So letTs just begin with January 1. How many
18 times doyou think you would have spoken with Denise Williams
19 on the telephoneprior to this recorded call?
20 A Probably every day.
21 Q would you also have texted back and forth?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Did you talk about the same types of thing that you
24 talk about,husbands, getting coffee, driving?
25 A Yes.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 Q How many times -- did, did you record all of those
2 conversations?
3 A I cannot remember specifically how many I recorded.
4 Q But it was more than one?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q And you sent all of those recordings to the Florida
7 Departmentof Law Enforcement?
8 A I'm not sure that I understand. Every one of our
9 everydayconversations, or every one of the recorded
10 conversations?
11 Q well, let's start with the recorded conversations.
12 A Yes. I gave all of those to FDLE. Yes, sir.
13 Q And how many of those do you think there were?
14 A I think there were maybe four to -- maybe four to
15 six.
16 Q Okay. And those were all the conversations that
17 were scriptedout by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement
18 to lie toMs. Williams that you had received this subpoena
19 when in factyou had not.
20 A when I was working for FDLE. Yes, sir.
21 Q So it would be fair to say, when you were making
22 these callswith Ms. Williams while working for FDLE, you were
23 at leastlying in part about what was actually going on.
24 A Yes.
25 Q The -- and that phone call speaks for itself, so the
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 jury'sheard it and they can hear it again. So I'm not going
2 to getinto what everybody said and what you said. Only to
3 suggestthat -- was Denise -- Denise is your friend, isn't
4 she?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And as that phone call was ending, she was trying to
7 be yourfriend. She was telling you to be safe, wasn't she?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q And you two probably talked the day after that phone
10 call, didn'tyou?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Now, you testified on direct examination that you
13 suspectedthat Brian Winchester and Denise Williams were
14 havingan affair. You suspected that.
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q Okay. But you don't know that, do you?
17 A I never caught them kissing or -- I never saw with
18 my owneyes them specifically in a physical embrace. No, sir.
19 I nevercaught them.
20 Q You don't know if they were having an affair as a
21 fact.
22 A I never caught them in the act. That is correct.
23 That isa fact.
24 Q You had talked about -- well, Brian was a selfish
25 husband,wasnTt he?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 590
1 A Yes, he was.
2 Q And you were having a troubled relationship with
3 Brian winchester well before your separation in September of
4 2001, correct?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q All right. And isn't it fair to say that in 2000
7 you were basically sleeping in a different room from
8 Mr. winchester?
9 A Yes, sir. That's fair to say.
10 Q You were either sleeping in Stafford's room, or you
11 were sleeping on the couch. You remember that?
12 A Yes.
13 Q You had mentioned earlier that you had some
14 suspicions about Brian. Do you know who Angela Stafford is?
15 A I do know who she is.
16 Q Did you ever learn Angela Stafford and your then
17 husband, Brian Winchester, had gone out to Klemen Plaza after
18 Denise's baby shower?
19 A Can you repeat that, please?
20 Q Do you know that -- were you -- do you remember when
21 Denise had her baby shower for Anslee?
22 A I'm sure I was there. I'm not -- at whose house was
23 it at? i think she may have had a couple.
24 Q Do you ever recall having or attending a baby shower
25 for Ms. Williams at the home on Centennial oaks?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 591
1 (Brief pause.)
2 THE WITNESS: I don't have a recollection of that,
3 specifically. Did something happen at the baby shower?
4 BY MR. WAY:
5 Q Ma'am --
6 THE COURT: He'll ask you another question,
7 Ms. Thomas.
8 THE WITNESS: Okay.
9 BY MR. WAY:
10 Q Yes, ma'am. All right. So you don't know if your
11 then husband was out seeing or out going out to clubs with
12 other women, other than your circle of friends. You
13 donTt..
14 A I had not caught him doing that either. I mean, I
15 canTt say because I donTt know. I don't want to say he wasnTt
16 because I donTt know. But I can't say that he was either.
17 Q well, Ms. Thomas, we're here in a felony trial. My
18 client's on trial. YouTve testified during direct
19 examination. You've answered the government's questions. ITm
20 trying to figure out what you know and what you're guessing
21 at.
22 THE COURT: Ask her a question, Mr. Way. I don't
23 perceive that --
24 MR. WAY: Do you know --
25 THE COURT: -- the witness has voided your
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 592
1 questions. Ask a question.
2 MR. WAY: Right.
3 BY MR. WAY:
4 Q Do you know for a fact whether or not Brian
5 winchester was cheating on you when you were married to him?
6 A No.
7 Q The virgin Suicide movie receipt, do you know for a
8 fact whether or not that has anything to do with Denise
9 williams?
10 A Brian told me that he took Denise to the movie.
11 Q Okay. Do you think that that, going to the movie,
12 has anything to do or proves in any way they were having an
13 affair?
14 A I didn't know he was going to take her to the movie
15 beforehand. And he did it without telling me. And he told me
16 later that it was her that he had taken. So I guess, no, it
17 doesn't prove anything. He just took someone else on a date
18 without me knowing. But I,I guess I can't.
19 Q And when was, when was that movie?
20 A To be honest,I would have to Google to see when it
21 came out. I don't remember. I'm sorry.
22 Q You testified earlier that you went to Panama City
23 for Denise's 30th birthday party and you struggled with it
24 because it was a difficult time. You didn't want to go.
25 A Correct.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 593
1 Q YouTve seen the photographs from the State
2 Attorney's office that have been introduced into evidence of
3 you and Ms. williams at the beach and you and Ms. Williams at
4 the club?
5 A No. I--
6 MR. WAY: May I, may I approach the witness, Your
7 Honor, with the exhibit?
8 THE COURT: You may.
9 (Pause.)
10 BY MR. WAY:
11 Q Ms. Thomas, ITm going to show you what's been
12 introduced into evidence as State's Exhibit 17. It's a
13 composite exhibit, several photographs. Please review these.
14 Please do not --
15 A Okay.
16 Q -- answer or say anything until you've had an
17 opportunity to review those.
18 (Pause.)
19 BY MR. WAY:
20 Q Ms. Thomas, are those photographs from that weekend
21 trip to Panama City in 2000?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q Okay. And do those pictures accurately depict you
24 in those photographs?
25 A Yes, sir.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 594
1 Q And is that you and Ms. Williams smiling and sitting
2 next to each other in a bikini?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q Does that depict you and Ms. Williams smiling out at
5 nightclubs?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q Does it depict you and Ms. Williams, essentially,
8 just having a good time as two friends?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 MR. WAY: May I approach, Your Honor?
11 THE COURT: You may.
12 BY MR. WAY:
13 Q Ms. Thomas, when you were making these controlled
14 calls as it relates to my client, Ms. Williams, you had
15 learned from the Department of Law Enforcement that Mike
16 williams' remains had been found, correct?
17 A No, sir. I didn't know that at the time of the
18 controlled calls.
19 Q You didn't -- you were not aware that in December of
20 2017 there was a press release and Florida Department of Law
21 Enforcement announced that they had found Mike williams'
22 remains and reclassified the case as a homicide.
23 A I'm sorry. Yes, sir. I did know that. I'm -- wait
24 a second.
25 (Pause.)
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 595
1 THE WITNESS: Can, can you tell me the date of when
2 the press conference was?
3 BY MR. WAY:
4 Q Ma'am, unfortunately --
5 A okay. I'm --
6 Q Let me try another question that might help. It's
7 not I'm trying to be evasive. It's not my -- I need to follow
8 the rules.
9 A I'm sorry. ITm not trying to be evasive either.
10 But I'm just trying --
11 Q Okay. Did you learn -- all right.
12 You have a son by Brian Winchester, correct?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And that means you have a connection to Marcus
15 winchester, because that is your son's grandfather.
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q You were aware that your former husband and the
18 father of your son kidnapped Denise williams at gunpoint on
19 August 5th, 2016, correct?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q You know that.
22 A Yes.
23 Q And you know that from not only your own personal
24 experience, but you also spoke with Denise williams that day,
25 correct?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 596
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q okay. And you have spoken with Denise Williams
3 constantlyor fairly continuously after August 5th of 2016,
4 correct?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q And these could be almost considered daily phone
7 calls ortext messages.
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q So you would have known, in August of 2016, that
10 your formerhusband was in jail and was facing felony charges.
11 A I knew he was in jail. Yes.
12 Q And you also knew -- and I believe it's referenced
13 on yourphone call -- you also knew that Special Agent Mike
14 Devaneyhad spoken with Denise Williams at the Leon County
15 Sheriff'sOffice when she was there to talk about her
16 kidnapping. Do you recall that?
17 A I do recall that. But she did not -- she did tell
18 me thatthere was someone there but not right away.
19 Q Did you be -- did you later, in your communications
20 with Ms.williams, become aware that the FDLE agent she spoke
21 to on August5th, 2016, was Agent Mike Devaney?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And you learned about this shortly after, or did it
24 take timebefore you and her discussed, specifically, Agent
25 Devaney?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 597
1 A It took some time before we discussed him.
2 Q But t became some point in your communication that
3 you and she could identify who these people were.
4 A No. We never really had -- we just knew the one
5 Mike Devaney.
6 Q And isn't it true that she told you she did not have
7 a good relationship or positive feeling about Mr. Devaney
8 after the way she was questioned on August 5th?
9 A She said he was mean to her.
10 Q Okay. she said some other things, too, probably,
11 over the course.
12 A She might have. I, I mainly remember her saying
13 that he was mean to her.
14 Q And that's also why there's some -- so you know from
15 your previous communications with her, when you're talking
16 about Agent Devaney on that controlled call, you know there's
17 a history between those two, and you already know that
18 Ms. Williams doesn't like Agent Devaney.
19 A Correct.
20 Q There are things in that, that recording -- again,
21 the recording speaks for itself. But the name Charles Bunker
22 comes up in there and there's a whole -- confusing stuff about
23 Charles Bunker. But who was Charles -- who is Charles Bunker?
24 A He was a man that Denise had worked with. And she,
25 I guess, she dated him.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 Q Did she date him about the same time that, that you
2 were getting formally divorced from Mr. winchester?
3 A I -- approximately.
4 Q And their relationship was, was open and notorious.
5 People knew that they were dating. Or you knew that, you knew
6 that Denise and Charles Bunker were dating.
7 A well, I had found that out from Brian. I didn't --
8 she and I were not communicating a lot after, after I had
9 separated from Brian. Our relationship was not very close for
10 a couple years around that time. So I knew that from Brian.
11 And, you know, we werenTt talking -- we weren't -- during that
12 time we werenTt on -- talking on a daily basis, like we were
13 currently.
14 Q would it be fair to say that your relationship with
15 Ms. Williams became closer after she filed for divorce from
16 Brian winchester?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And that would put you two in the Brian Winchester
19 ex-wives club together?
20 A uh-huh. Yes.
21 Q Did, did she have many of the same -- did she talk
22 with you many of the same concerns she had trying to divorce
23 Brian Winchester as you --
24 A Yes.
25 Q -- had had?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 599
1 A Yes.
2 Q Couldn't get documents?
3 A Correct.
4 Q Brian winchester didn't want to say no. Didn't want
5 to giveup.
6 A Correct.
7 Q And, in fact, when you went through and finally got
8 your divorcefrom Mr. winchester, I believe the final hearing
9 was righthere in this courthouse, wasn't it?
10 A Correct.
11 Q And if I recall correctly, from previous testimony
12 and yourown knowledge, Mr. Winchester sat one row behind you
13 and cried.
14 A Correct.
15 Q But to be fair, Mr. Winchester never really tried
16 any reconciliationattempts with you, did he?
17 A No.
18 Q He just didn't want you to be divorced from him.
19 A Correct.
20 Q And then once you got your finalized divorce and you
21 were nolonger married to Mr. Winchester, you started a
22 relationshipwith your current husband, Mr. Thomas.
23 A Correct.
24 Q And Brian didn't like that, did he?
25 A No.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 Q Did he try to stop your marriage to Mr. Thomas?
2 A Hedid.
3 Q So as soon as you became engaged or romantically
4 involvedwith another man, Mr. winchester's efforts to try to
5 bring youback intensified.
6 A Yes.
7 Q It was up until the divorce he hadn't really cared,
8 had he?
9 A That is correct.
10 Q You were finally able to marry Mr. Thomas in 2004?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And thereafter, Mr. Winchester and Ms. -- or
13 Ms. Williamsand Mr. Winchester got married in 2005, correct?
14 A I think that -- uh-huh. Yes. I, I believe it was
15 around 2005.
16 Q when -- the relationship with you and Ms. Williams,
17 that tendedto get better after that marriage, because
18 Ms. Williamswas now, essentially, your son's stepmother,
19 correct?
20 A That's right.
21 Q And you had more communication now and more contact
22 with Ms.Williams --
23 A uh-huh.
24 Q -- because this was before the ex-wives club,
25 correct?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 601
1 A Correct.
2 Q Now you're just in the coparenting club.
3 A Correct.
4 Q And Denise was good to Stafford, wasn't she?
5 A Yes. uh-huh.
6 Q She looked after him?
7 A uh-huh. Yes.
8 Q And isn't it true, even after -- well, let me ask
9 you a question: As part of your divorce agreement with
10 Mr. Winchester back in 2003, was Mr. Winchester obligated to
11 provide private school tuition?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q And as Stafford grew older, he ended up attending
14 the Maclay school, correct?
15 A Yes.
16 Q He went to high school at Maclay.
17 A Yes.
18 Q About the time he started high school at Maclay was
19 about the same time that Ms. Williams and Mr. Winchester
20 separated, correct?
21 A Yes. That's correct.
22 Q Do you know, in your review of the circumstances
23 related to your son, whether or not Ms. williams actually paid
24 Stafford's tuition at Maclay?
25 A That is what she had told me. But I never, you
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 602
1 know, I don't -- I wasnTt on the financial part, so I can't
2 say who paid. But that is what she told me. Yes.
3 Q And Stafford's tuition ended up being paid.
4 A Yes.
5 Q And this was at a time when she wasn't even in a
6 relation -- in a ongoing relationship with Mr. winchester; she
7 was trying to get divorced from him.
8 A Yes.
9 Q Finally, when you were, when you were working with
10 the Department of Law Enforcement in February of 2018, that
11 was before you found out, conclusively, that your former
12 husband had killed Mike williams, wasn't it?
13 (Pause.)
14 THE WITNESS: May I just kind of present a time line
15 how I'm remembering it, though I can't, like, remember
16 the verbatim dates? There was the kidnapping. And
17 the -- I started working with FDLE around the time that
18 Brian was sentenced, like, after his sentencing.
19 So -- yes. That's correct. ITm sorry it took me a
20 minute. Just -- but yes. At, at the time that I
21 recorded the phone calls, I had known that Mike had been
22 found.
23 BY MR. WAY:
24 Q well, let me try to back up a little bit, because
25 I'm asking more not necessarily when Mike was found. I'm
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 603
1 askingwhen you found out that Brian was the man who in fact
2 killedMike williams.
3 A I found that out on the day that the press
4 conference happened.
5 Q And --
6 A Because when -- should I keep going? I'm sorry.
7 Q okay. All right. I'm going to try to lead it a
8 littlebit better --
9 A Okay.
10 Q -- just to help you out a little bit. There was a
11 pressconference in December 2017. Mr. Fuchs was there, along
12 with FDLE agents. Is -- do you recall that press conference?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q And at that press conference it was announced that
15 Mike williams'remains had been discovered. Do you remember
16 that?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q But they did not say at that press conference who
19 killedMike Williams, did it?
20 A No, sir. You're right. I'm sorry.
21 Q All right. After the press conference, you work
22 with FDLE in February of 2018.
23 A uh-huh.
24 Q Ma'am, I'm going to need you to answer yes or no for
25 the courtreporter, please.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER .,i
1 A Yes.
2 Q Did FDLE, during this time that you were working
3 with them, ever tell you that they knew that your former
4 husband, Brian Winchester, had actually killed Mike Williams?
5 A Yes. They told me what his testimony was, what
6 he -- they told me what he said he had done.
7 Q And they told you that before you started working on
8 recording the phone calls.
9 A Yes.
10 MR. WAY: Nothing further, Your Honor.
11 THE COURT: Redirect.
12 CROSS-EXAMINATION
13 BY MR. ROGERS:
14 Q Ms. Thomas, you would agree with me that affairs,
15 especially when you're married, are meant to be kept secret;
16 is that fair?
17 A Yes. That's fair.
18 Q And you don't know that your hus -- then husband,
19 Brian Winchester, was having an affair with Denise Williams,
20 because you never caught them red-handed?
21 A That's correct.
22 Q But you had some pretty high suspicions about it; is
23 that fair?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q And we talked about the recorded calls and the
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 605
1 number of recordings. Are the number of recordings that you
2 made, does that change the context of the recording that was
3 played for the jury?
4 (Pause.)
5 BY MR.ROGERS:
6 Q The, the call that was played for thejury, does
7 thatchange based on how many other recordingsthat you made
8 withMs. --
9 A No.
10 Q -- williams?
11 A That was the recording.
12 Q The day-to-day calls, where you justcalled and you
13 werejust talking to your friend about day-to-daylife, did
14 thosechange the content or the context of therecording that
15 thejury heard today?
16 A No, they don't.
17 Q whether you were working off of a scriptor not,
18 doesthat change the context or the content ofthe call that
19 thejury heard today?
20 A No.
21 MR. ROGERS: Nothing further.
22 THE COURT: Any juror have a questionof this
23 witness? All right, write your questiondown, please.
24 we will go to sidebar.
25 (Sidebar discussion held as follows):
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER S..
1 THE COURT: we have several questions. First
2 question, "Can you remember anything about December 16th,
3 2000, that stuck out to you concerning Denise and/or
4 Brian? In other words behavior, interactions, in
5 parentheses."
6 Either side have any objection to that?
7 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
8 (Off-the-record discussion.)
9 MR. ROGERS: Judge, I would object at this point
10 that's outside the scope of the direct examination.
11 think, also, with this witness what we would run into is
12 the possibility that we get into long narrative responses
13 and go outside of where just this question would say --
14 or what this question is asking.
15 THE COURT: You're okay with the understanding it
16 might go off on a tangent, Mr. way?
17 MR. WAY: I don't think there's any way to stop
18 that, but I think it's a question that's a relevant time
19 period that's been discussed.
20 THE COURT: Okay. I'll overrule the State's
21 objection.
22 "Have you ever physically met Angela Stafford?"
23 Either side object?
24 MR. WAY: No.
25 MR. ROGERS: No objection.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 607
1 THE COURT: "Did you ever question Denise or
2 Brian" --
3 MR. ROGERS: I'm sorry. It was the microphone.
4 THE COURT: "Did you ever question Denise's or
5 Brian's involvement in Mike's disappearance before 2016?"
6 (Off-the-record discussion.)
7 THE COURT: And I'm not sure whether this means, you
8 know, suspect or ask of them. It's a little ambiguous.
9 what do y'all think?
10 MR. WAY: I think that one's going to get really far
11 afield on responses, and I don't know that we would be
12 able to stop what happens with that one.
13 MR. ROGERS: I agree with that.
14 THE COURT: The questions kind of ambiguous. So...
15 MR. WAY: yeah.
16 THE COURT: "In your opinion, did Denise seem
17 emotionally distraught about the disappearance of her
18 husband?'T
19 MR. ROGERS: I would object to the question as it
20 calls for an opinion.
21 THE COURT: well, it's an appropriate -- it's a
22 legally acceptable opinion as to whether -- what
23 somebodyTs emotional reaction is. So that's not a proper
24 objection to it. what -- beyond that, what do you think?
25 MR. WAY: I mean, I'm not a fan. I think it's a
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER S.:
1 fair question.
2 THE COURT: Further?
3 MR. ROGERS: Nothing further, Judge.
4 THE COURT: well, I'll ask it.
5 "Do you believe Denise and Brian plotted to kill
6 Mike williams? If so, why? when did you first suspect
7 it?"
8 I assume we don't want to go there.
9 MR. FUCHS: We want to but we can't.
10 THE COURT: You want to.
11 MR. WAY: That's why we're having the trial.
12 THE COURT: That's correct.
13 "Do you still consider yourself a friend to Denise
14 williams?"
15 Either -- what's your position?
16 MR. WAY: I think that one we're probably going to
17 get another kind of long-winded explanation, and i don't
18 think itTs -- i would object. it's irrelevant.
19 MR. ROGERS: I'm fine with Mr. way's objection to
20 it,I think.
21 THE COURT: Okay. We don't -- we just won't get
22 into it. And then they ask, "If so, explain how she
23 could think that if she now believes they had an affair."
24 So I think weTve covered that. Okay.
25 MR. WAY: yeah. i think questions coming from you
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER S..
1 will probably get tighter answers.
2 THE COURT: we'll see.
3 (Sidebar discussion concludes.)
4 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm ready, Your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Ms. Thomas, we have a couple of
6 follow-up questions from the jury. The first one relates
7 back to the date that Mr. Mike Williams disappeared,
8 December 16, 2000. Do you have any recollection from
9 that time frame that stuck out to you concerning either
10 Ms. Williams or Mr. winchester's behavior or interaction?
11 Anything specific that stood out to you from that date or
12 close to that date?
13 THE WITNESS: Any, any behavior that I saw between
14 the two of them?
15 THE COURT: Or individually.
16 THE WITNESS: Or individually? I, I canTt recall
17 anymore specific action. And should I say just that day,
18 specifically?
19 THE COURT: I think that's what the juror's --
20 THE WITNESS: Okay.
21 THE COURT: -- asking about. Do you, do you
22 remember --
23 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I --
24 THE COURT: -- what happened?
25 THE WITNESS: I don't have any specific -- on that
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 610
1 day, I did not see Denise. I had a phone call from her
2 telling me -- it was aroundlunchtime. she was telling
3 me she was looking for him. And Brian -- that -- so I
4 did not see her on that day. Brian, he came late to our
5 family Christmas party. He-- in my mind, in the moments
6 on that day,I was wrappingChristmas presents and the
7 plan was that he would get backfrom hunting and we would
8 leave and go together to myfamily Christmas party in
9 Cairo, Georgia.
10 And around two o'clock,I just left with Stafford,
11 because we were supposed tobe there at 3:00. And Brian
12 showed up later. He showedup after we had opened
13 presents and everything likethat. And it was -- there
14 was -- in that moment, it justseemed as if Mike had gone
15 hunting and just hadn't comeback. I didn't see any --
16 THE COURT: So there wasn'tanything unusual about
17 Mr. winchester's behavior thatyou remember, other than
18 being late for the party?
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
20 THE COURT: Okay. Haveyou ever physically met
21 Angela Stafford?
22 THE WITNESS: I believeso. I believe that we would
23 have met at -- but -- and Iknow who she is. But she was
24 not someone who was someonethat, you know -- and back
25 then, you know, you didn't haveFacebook and things like
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR,OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 611
1 that where you might recognize someone, even though you
2 didn't see them a lot. i feel that i would have met
3 her -- I know that I must have met her, but we were just
4 acquaintances.
5 THE COURT: Okay. Did Ms. Williams appear
6 emotionally distraught about the disappearance of her
7 husband? And we're talking about now back in late 2000,
8 early 2001.
9 THE WITNESS: She did not seem distraught. In those
10 days after Mike was gone,I could remember saying to
11 Brian --
12 THE COURT: I think you've answered the question.
13 THE WITNESS: I --
14 THE COURT: Any follow-up, Mr. Rogers?
15 MR. ROGERS: No, Judge.
16 THE COURT: Any follow-up, Mr. Way?
17 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
18 THE COURT: All right. You can step down.
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
20 THE COURT: Call your next witness.
21 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, at this time the State would
22 rest.
23 THE COURT: Okay.
24 (Witness exits.)
25 THE COURT: All right. We'll let the jury step out.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 612
1 (Jury exits.)
2 THE COURT: we will take five minutes and take up
3 motions.
4 (Brief recess.)
5 THE BAILIFF: All rise. Court is back in session.
6 THE COURT: Be seated, please, folks. padovano.
7 Everybody either be seated or step out.
8 MR. PADOVANO: Your Honor, at this time the defense
9 has four motions. They're written motions. They were
10 filed in the court files a few minutes ago. I have
11 copies for the Court and for counsel just for
12 convenience. May I approach the bench?
13 THE COURT: You may.
14 MR. PADOVANO: The first of these as -- and by the
15 way, Judge, all of these are fairly short, one or two
16 pages each. And I have -- a couple of them I have
17 attached the key cases for -- that deal with the motion.
18 The first one is a motion to compel an election
19 between the charge of principal and the charge of
20 accessory. And that motion is based on a Florida supreme
21 Court opinion, which I have attached. And there are a
22 number of cases that follow it, and I've cited them in
23 the motion.
24 But the supreme Court held in Staten v. State, which
25 is attached to the motion in which, in which is cited in
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 613
1 the motion that the charge of principal and accessory are
2 mutually exclusive. Can't get a conviction for both of
3 those in the same case. They -- rationale for that
4 decision is that the charge of accessory says that it's a
5 crime to help the principal, If you are the principal,
6 it makes no sense to say that you can also be the
7 accessory. So, in short, that's what the supreme Court
8 said in that case. And I think it bears out in this
9 because there's no question that the indictment in this
10 case charges Ms. Williams both as a principal and as an
11 accessory.
12 Count iii on accessory says she was an accessory to
13 the principal. So, in essence, she was an accessory to
14 herself, according to the State's allegations. And so
15 one of those charges has to go down, Your Honor. i mean,
16 it, it -- they canTt get a conviction for both. i think
17 the case is --
18 THE COURT: i think the important question would be
19 when that has to occur. Does this case deal with that?
20 MR. PADOVANO: I think as a matter of law, you
21 simply can't -- I mean, they're all -- all these cases --
22 I think the principal that's announced by the supreme
23 Court is the principle of law.
24 THE COURT: That is my belief that the State can
25 pursue alternative theories to the jury, and they do not
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 614
1 have to elect before a jury makes a determination. Do
2 you have some case law --
3 MR.PADOVANO: There --
4 THE COURT: -- to the contrary?
5 MR.PADOVANO: -- there is one, there is one --
6 well, there, there is one case that suggests this, that
7 this is -- it doesn't refer to the problem of grand theft
8 and dealing in stolen property, whichIknow you're
9 familiar with. But Judge Altenbernd suggested that --
10 most of these cases, the issue came up after the, the
11 convictions.
12 Judge Altenbernd suggested in one of these cases
13 that the remedy would be to instruct the jury that they
14 could only convict of one or the other but not both. And
15 soIthink that's --Imean,Ithink,Ithink if the jury
16 were to convict of both, as a matter of law, the Court
17 would have to vacate one of these.
18 THE COURT: well, that's the --
19 MR.PADOVANO: Ido --
20 THE COURT: -- typical situation when we're talking
21 about a double jeopardy --
22 MR.PADOVANO: Yes,I --
23 THE COURT: -- claim. And, typically, that decision
24 is made prior to sentencing.
25 MR.PADOVANO: Yes. And, and, and the -- and I will
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 615
1 say this, Your Honor. The case law does hold that it's
2 not a double jeopardy issue. It's a statutory issue.
3 You can't be convicted of both of those --
4 THECOURT: Isaid --
5 MR.PADOVANO: Okay.
6 THECOURT: -- as an example.
7 MR.PADOVANO: It's really almost like,Ithink,
8 dealing in stolen property and, and grand theft. Ithink
9 it's a very similar situation. So I think thatI -- I
10 think that you have to instruct the jury they can pick
11 one. But --Imean,Ido take your point that they can
12 file them both. ButIthink you have to instruct the
13 jury that they can only pick one.
14 THECOURT: Okay. Thank you.
15 State want to respond to that?
16 MR.FUCHS: Yes, Your Honor. As the Court pointed
17 out, the -- in that situation, the -- it would be a
18 situation where we send them both to the jury in
19 alternative theories of guilt, and we would have to
20 vacate one if convicted of both. Ithink that is a
21 proper procedure. As Your Honor has stated, there's no
22 real case law out there that says that it has to be done
23 at this particular time. And, in fact, the common
24 practice and what we have always done in accordance with
25 case law is that we do send them both back and vacate
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 616
1 sentences as appropriate.
2 THE COURT: ITm going to deny the motion at this
3 point without prejudice to raise prior to sentencing,
4 should convictions result as to both without any final
5 rulings. i haven't really studied this carefully, but I
6 think itTs likely that what the defense is saying is
7 accurate but,I don't think, the timing of it now. I do
8 believe the State can alternatively present theories to
9 the jury. And I don't believe a ruling is required at
10 this point in time.
11 MR. PADOVANO: The, the second motion, Your Honor,
12 is a motion for judgment of acquittal on the charge of
13 principal in the second count of the indictment. And
14 that motion is based on the same case, oddly enough,
15 Staten v State. There's another point in that same case.
16 But there's a more recent case in the First District
17 Court of Appeal,Am/lions v State. It was an opinion -- a
18 unanimous opinion by the First District. It was written
19 by Judge Brad Thomas and joined by two other judges on
20 the Court.
21 And the Court essentially concluded -- and I've -- I
22 provided a copy of that with you, thatAm/lionscase. But
23 whatAmmonssaid, and it follows the law that there must
24 be proof that the defendant committed some act to be a
25 principal. It's not enough just to agree to a -- commit
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 617
1 a crime. That's conspiracy. It's not enough to
2 encourage somebody to commit a crime. That's
3 solicitation. To be a principal, you have to commit some
4 act.
5 And I think, if the Court could use it's own
6 experience, that a lot of these cases where people are
7 charged as a principal , they drove the getaway car, they
8 provided a gun, or they did something like that. But
9 unless there is something like that, the evidence is not
10 sufficient to charge the person as a principal. Now,
11 that comes from the supreme Court and the First DCA.
12 The, the evidence in this case -- there is no
13 evidence in this case -- and I, I, I know why you thought
14 this would be quick because it is a -- it's credibility
15 of Brian winchester, whatever we're -- we think of his
16 testimony. It's there and what he says has to be taken
17 as true for the purpose of this motion and we do.
18 But my point is there's no evidence from what --
19 even from what he says, even from what he says that
20 Denise Williams committed some act. If you go back
21 through the testimony, basically what he's saying is that
22 she agreed with him that this would happen. And, and
23 that's pretty much all she did.
24 The in -- and I think you recall, when questioned on
25 cross-examination, Agent Mulvaney [sic] who had looked at
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 all of the statements, all the evidence in the case. And
2 i said, Agent Mulvaney, is there -- are you aware of
3 anything that she did -- not anything that she said. Are
4 you aware of anything that she did? And he said no overt
5 act.
6 That was his phrase. So you have a case before you,
7 Your Honor, where there's no act of any kind and -- and,
8 again, her, her statements could be the basis of some
9 other charge but not principal. Not under the First DCA
10 decision in Ammons and not under the Supreme Court's
11 decision in Staten, both of which I provided you there.
12 THE COURT: I have -- oh, okay. The other one was
13 attached to the first motion. I'm sorry.
14 MR. PADOVANO: Yeah. I'm sorry I didn't make two
15 copies of that.
16 THE COURT: No, no. You didn't need to. You didnTt
17 need to. I just misunderstood.
18 Give me a second.
19 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir.
20 (Pause.)
21 THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Fuchs.
22 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, the -- Brian Winchester's
23 testimony is part of the plan was that she was to take
24 the affirmative step of making sure that Mike Williams
25 could go on this hunting trip. That was no small feat,
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 619
1 given the fact that it was on their anniversary. That is
2 an overt act by Denise williams in accordance with --
3 by -- through the testimony of Brian winchester that
4 would constitute the principal aspect of the first degree
5 murder in this particular case. And certainly given in
6 light most favorable to the State, that would be an overt
7 act in that situation.
8 THE COURT: Mr. padovano.
9 MR. PADOVANO: He said that in his deposition, but I
10 don't recall him ever saying that in this trial. He
11 basically said that they agreed that this would happen.
12 In his deposition, he said that her role in it was to get
13 permission to go hunting. But my recollection of the
14 testimony is, is he never once said that in the trial.
15 what she said to him -- first of all,I think it's
16 doubtful that that constitutes an act. Maybe you could
17 say it's a verbal act, but, I mean, my point would be how
18 far do you want to stretch it to get to the point where
19 she is a principal? y understanding of principal is
20 somebody who actually does some hard thing to help
21 somebody out, get -- buys a gun, supplies a gun, drives a
22 car away, something like that. This is -- there's
23 nothing like that in this case.
24 (Pause.)
25 MR. FUCHS: And, Your Honor, with all due respect to
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 620
1 DCA, the Supreme Court of Florida has issued the jury
2 instructions as it relates to principal . And that in
3 itself says the defendant did some, some act or said some
4 word, was intended to, which caused -- did incite, cause,
5 encourage, assist, or otherwise advise a person to
6 actually commit the crime. So --
7 MR. PADOVANO: Your Honor, if I could be permitted
8 briefly to address that.
9 THE COURT: Certainly.
10 MR. PADOVANO: Mr., Mr. Fuchs is correct about that.
11 And my, my response to that is that the jury instruction
12 which the Court is not -- the, the opinions all over the
13 place that say the jury instructions are not the law.
14 But here's, here's where the bottom line of our
15 argument is on that. He's correct about that. The jury
16 instructions says that. But the bottom line of our
17 argument is the standard jury instruction is wrong. I
18 am, also, when we get finished, get finished with this,
19 I'm going to ask you to change it, because nowhere in the
20 Florida law does it say that you can be a principal of
21 the crime just by giving somebody else the okeydoke to do
22 it. It's not the -- that's not the crime. So the jury
23 instruction is wrong. I think if it comes down to
24 following the jury instruction or following the case law,
25 I think the Court's duty on that is clear.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 621
1 (Pause.)
2 THE COURT: ITmgoing to reserve ruling on that for
3 the moment untilIhave a little better chance to read --
4 MR.PADOVANO: Yes, sir.
5 THE COURT: --these cases and --
6 MR.PADOVANO: Yes, sir.
7 THE COURT: --understand them a little more
8 carefully.
9 MR.PADOVANO: So the, the third one is the
10 defendant's motionfor judgment of acquittal on the
11 charge of accessoryafter the fact.
12 And, and let,let me say, beforeIstart that, I'm a
13 little bit unclear,even myself, what evidence the State
14 thinks is accessoryafter the fact. So I'm not sure what
15 it is they're relyingon, but the indictment on CountIII
16 has a fairly narrowtime window, fairly late in the game.
17 Ithink it's somethinglike 17 through -- some period of
18 2017 through '18 orsomething like that. And the only
19 thing thatIcan thinkof in the testimony that they were
20 relying on is her interviewwith, interview with Devaney
21 when she refused togive information.
22 And the pointof this motion is that, that
23 there's -- case lawin Florida requires for a conviction
24 for accessory afterthe fact. The case law requires an
25 overt act. And thecases have said -- in other words,
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 622
1 you have to do something affirmatively to mislead the
2 police. you can't simply go in and, and -- in a police
3 interview and deny that you know anything about it.
4 In the case that I have attached to the, to the
5 motion, there's not a whole lot of law on this, but the
6 one case that I do have attached to the motion is that
7 Milan (phonetic) case, if I'm saying it right.
8 Essentially says that if all you did was interview with
9 the police and, and, and, and, and claim that you knew
10 nothing at all about the crime, that's not being an
11 accessory after the fact.
12 There are some things in this case that I think
13 might have qualified maybe thwarting the investigation,
14 you know, with Cheryl Williams. I don't know. But if
15 you look at the time frame in the indictment, there's
16 almost nothing in there except interviews that, in that
17 period of time, except interviews with law enforcement
18 officers. And there isn't anything that she did. In
19 fact, on numerous occasions, she cooperated with them,
20 turned over the noteonthe car. The incident at FSU,
21 she went straight tothepolice.
22 So if, if whattheState is relying on here -- and,
23 again, I say I'm notsurethat she refused to talk to --
24 she denied -- let'ssayshe falsely denied -- that's
25 really taking it in the light most favorable to the
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 623
1 State. Falsely denied knowing anything about it, that's
2 not enough to prove the crime. There has to be some,
3 there has to be some overt act that she did to try to
4 mislead them, and there really isn't anything.
5 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Fuchs.
6 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, the overt act by
7 Ms. Williams is the message that she sent to -- or via --
8 or attempted to send via Kathy Thomas. What she did is
9 she told law enforcement -- denied the involvement aspect
10 to law enforcement. But immediately thereafter, within
11 the one week, she sent a message to Brian, essentially,
12 her coconspirator, to let him know that the agreement, if
13 you take Mr. Winchester's testimony about the agreement
14 about not cooperating, and everything along those lines,
15 don't time each other out.
16 She sent an affirmative act that was towards the
17 goal of keeping them from being arrested and keeping him
18 from being arrested. She sent him a message saying, I
19 didn't tell them anything; so, therefore, you shouldn't
20 tell them anything. And, again, the entire purpose of
21 that is to keep him from confessing if he, if he -- to
22 keep him from implicating her along those lines. So that
23 is the affirmative act that was done that goes beyond
24 just denying it to law enforcement.
25 THE COURT: padovano.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 624
1 MR. PADOVANO: The, the note doesn't say, therefore
2 you don't tell them anything. I mean, he's a -- he's
3 sort of extrapolating from that note. I mean, that's not
4 evidence of -- that's not evidence of, of obstructing the
5 police.
6 THE COURT: well,I think that is an overt act.
7 Frankly,I think there are things as mentioned by the
8 defense that are more clearly that kind of activity,
9 particularly the dealings with the williams, but that's
10 not whatTs alleged. But I'm going to deny that motion.
11 But I'm not -- we're not going to argue that to the
12 jury --
13 MR. PADOVANO: No, no. No.
14 THE COURT: ITm talking to the --
15 MR. PADOVANO: oh, I'm sorry.
16 THE COURT: -- State now.
17 MR. PADOVANO: I'm sorry.
18 THE COURT: So we're not going to argue accessory
19 after the fact is based on what was the conversation with
20 the Williams, which is years before the allegations and
21 the indictment in terms of accessory after the fact. Do
22 you understand, Mr. Fuchs?
23 MR. FUCHS: No. Actually, I'm trying to figure out
24 what conversation you're talking about. Are you talking
25 about --
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 625
1 THE COURT: well, when he --
2 MR. FUCHS: -- all the things --
3 THE COURT: -- when --
4 MR. FUCHS: -- that led up to that time period?
5 THE COURT: when Denise Williams allegedly goes to
6 Ms. Cheryl...
7 MR. FUCHS: oh, no, no. I donTt have --
8 THE COURT: ITm sorry. I may have the names wrong.
9 I'm sorry --
10 MR. FUCHS: That's all right. I'm not intending
11 on --
12 THE COURT: -- goes to grandmother and Mr. williams'
13 brother. We'renot going to argue that as being
14 accessory afterthe fact, although I think it could have
15 been charged that way.
16 MR. FUCHS: I am intending to use those things for
17 other purposes--
18 THE COURT: Certainly.
19 MS. FUCHS: -- but I'm not using it for the
20 accessory afterthe fact purpose.
21 THE COURT: Certainly.
22 MR. FUCHS: That's correct.
23 THE COURT: All right.
24 MR. PADOVANO: I think that's -- I agree with that,
25 Your Honor. IdonTt think that's --
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 626
1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 MR. PADOVANO: I think that's fair. I mean, it's
3 relevant but it's not the basis of the accessory charge,
4 and I think that's what the Court is getting to.
5 THE COURT: Right.
6 MR. PADOVANO: And, and I think counsel understands
7 that.
8 The final motion is the motion for judgment of
9 acquittal on the charge of conspiracy. And I don't need
10 to -- I didn't put a case in here, because I don't need
11 to outline for the Court what the elements of that are.
12 But just looking at the facts,I think it's fairly
13 clear from the evidence that -- from the State's evidence
14 that she renounced the conspiracy on December 9th. By
15 Brian Winchester's own testimony, she -- he, he I think
16 he said he called Mike Williams and Mike Williams said to
17 him,i can't go hunting and then something to the effect
18 of Brian then called Denise Williams after that and said,
19 well, what gives? I thought we were, you know, going to
20 do this. And she said,I had cold feet.
21 So you have a scenario in which Denise Williams is
22 preventing him from going hunting and explaining that
23 she's changed her mind. So that, I think, amounts to a
24 renunciation of it. And I know there is a part of the
25 conspiracy argument, which you had highlighted on your,
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 627
1 your -- that -- your draft of it which talks about that.
2 we're going to ask the Court to give that.
3 But just as the beginning part of this motion, the
4 reasonIbring that up is becauseI,I,Ithink that,
5 that really the Court needs to look only what happened in
6 the intervening week. AndIwill say not much. Brian
7 winchester himself said that he had very minimal contact
8 with her that week. There's no evidence of any sort of
9 plan that occurred that week. Ijust don't --Imean,I
10 just,Ijust don't think that what happened between
11 December 9th and the December 16th can support a charge
12 of conspiracy.
13 THECOURT: Ideny that motion.
14 MR.PADOVANO: All right. Then the, the final thing
15 is the request for a modification of the jury
16 instruction.
17 THECOURT: we'll, we'll take that up
18 after you've --
19 MR.PADOVANO: If you'd like -- the only reason --
20 I'm happy to do it later, Your Honor. Ijust --Iknow
21 you're concerned about getting jury instructions early.
22 THECOURT: oh,Iappreciate that.
23 MR.PADOVANO: If you're okay with me doing it
24 later, ITm okay with it.
25 THECOURT: If you have a proposal --
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 MR.PADOVANO: I do.
2 THECOURT: -- I'd like to see it but I --
3 MR.PADOVANO: I did -- I...
4 THECOURT: -- i don't want to get into the argument
5 on it atthis point.
6 MR.PADOVANO: No, no, no. I -- no. well, I don't
7 think, Idon't think there's any need for argument. ItTs
8 basically what we argued on the motion for judgment of
9 acquittalon the principal charge.
10 THECOURT: Okay.
11 MR.PADOVANO: Okay.
12 THECOURT: Thank you.
13 MR.PADOVANO: Thank you.
14 THECOURT: All right.
15 (Off-the-record discussion.)
16 THECOURT: Defense have their first witness ready?
17 MR.PADOVANO: Can I check with Mr. Way? He stepped
18 outside for a second.
19 THECOURT: Certainly.
20 MR.PADOVANO: Yes. I'm told he's ready, Your
21 Honor.
22 THECOURT: You getting Mr. Way?
23 (Pause.)
24 THECOURT: Are we ready for a jury?
25 MR.WAY: Your Honor, this was...
VERONICAG. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 629
1 MR. FUCHS: This is the proffered testimony.
2 THE COURT: we'll do that at lunch. we'll do that
3 on our time, nottheir time.
4 MR. WAY: I understand, Your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Get your first witness that you want to
6 call.
7 MR. WAY: The defense calls Christin Gonzalez, Your
8 Honor.
9 THE COURT: No. we're not going to take a proffer
10 now. you weren'tlistening. we'll do the proffer at
11 lunchtime.
12 MR. WAY: I,I apologize, Your Honor. I thought
13 we're going todo part of her testimony. I'll get the
14 next one.
15 (Pause.)
16 THE COURT: Are we ready for a jury now?
17 MR. WAY: Yes, Your Honor.
18 THE COURT: All right. Let's have a jury, please.
19 (Pause.)
20 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, do we want the podium remain
21 where it is, ordo we want to move it back to where it
22 was?
23 THE COURT: IT11 get the bailiff tomove it when he
24 gets back in.
25 MR. FUCHS: Okay.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 630
1 (Jury enters.)
2 THE COURT: All right. Everybody be seated.
3 Defense may call their first witness.
4 MR. WAY: Your Honor, the defense calls Curtis
5 Hunter.
6 THE COURT: All right, If youTd face the clerk and
7 be sworn, please, sir.
8 Whereupon,
9 CURTIS HUNTER
10 was called as a witness, having been first duly sworn, was
11 examined and testfed as follows:
12 THE COURT: Have a seat. Slide up to the
13 microphone, please, sir.
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
15 DIRECT EXAMINATION
16 BY MR. WAY:
17 Q Good morning, sir.
18 A Good morning.
19 Q Could you please state and spell your name for the
20 record?
21 A Curtis Hunter, C -U -R -T -I -S, H -U -N -T -E -R.
22 Q Mr. Hunter, how are you currently employed?
23 A I'm an attorney with Becker & poliakoff in Miami.
24 Q How long have you been a licensed attorney in the
25 State of Florida?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 631
1 A Since 1992, I believe.
2 Q And what -- do you have a specific area of practice
3 or an areathat you focus on?
4 A My area of practice now is corporate, tax law,
5 offshoreasset protection planning, but also estate planning,
6 domesticand estate planning and probate.
7 THE COURT: Push that mic back away from you a
8 littlebit. You're too close to that --
9 THE WITNESS: Okay.
10 THE COURT: -- microphone. Move it away from you,
11 nottowards you.
12 THE WITNESS: That's away.
13 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead.
14 BY MR. WAY:
15 Q How were you employed in 2001?
16 A Gardner -- it was Gardner, Duggar, Bist & Wiener.
17 Q Is that a law firm, here in Tallahassee, Florida?
18 A Local Tallahassee law firm, correct.
19 Q And what did you do for the Gardner Firm?
20 A Pretty much the same thing except for the offshore
21 asset protectionplanning. I did domestic estate planning and
22 probate,and then the corporate and tax stuff, as well.
23 Q Did you happen -- during your time at Gardner in
24 2001, didyou happen to become employed as it relates to the
25 estate ofJerry Michael Williams?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 632
1 A I did.
2 Q Can you describe how you came to be involved with
3 that estate?
4 A Marcus winchester, i consider him as a friend, as
5 well, was a referral source for me. I would do seminars with
6 him, as well, through his insurance arm of his business. And
7 he contacted me one day to explain to me that his son's best
8 friend or good friend had disappeared and his -- the
9 individual who disappeared's wife had insurance policies and
10 they were wanting to get a death certificate, a presumptive
11 death certificate so she could collect the insurance proceeds.
12 Q well, after you were contacted about Marcus
13 winchester, what did you do next?
14 A I,i believe he called me. we had a fairly lengthy
15 conversation on the phone. And then I scheduled a meeting
16 after that.
17 Q Do you recall who attended the meeting?
18 A It was Brian winchester, Denise, and her father,
19 Mr. Merrell.
20 Q And do you recall the interaction you had with
21 Ms. Williams at that initial meeting with Mr. Winchester,
22 Mr. Merrell, and my client?
23 A Inter -- there wasn't much interaction from Denise.
24 She was pretty much quiet, kind of had her head down the whole
25 time.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 633
1 Q And the other gentlemen were essentially driving the
2 situation with you during that meeting?
3 A Correct. yeah.
4 Q After that meeting, what happened next?
5 A After that, we had follow-up phone calls with, I
6 think, Marcus Winchester, possibly Brian. Mr. Merrell had
7 dropped off notes. when Mike had disappeared, there was --
8 I'm sure everybody's aware of all the searches, dive teams,
9 helicopter searches, and all that. That went on for months.
10 So from after being retained to assist Denise, I started
11 collecting information to put in a petition for a presumptive
12 death certificate.
13 Q was that mostly office work between you and your
14 staff and these individuals?
15 A Correct. Primarily me.
16 Q Did you also have contact with any insurance
17 companies during this --
18 A i did.
19 Q -- time frame?
20 A I did.
21 Q Did you -- who did you have contact with, if you can
22 recall?
23 A Kansas City Life. I think one individual's name was
24 Paul Sailor. There may have been others, but I remember his
25 name. And Mar -- Marcus was an underwriter for Kansas City
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 634
1 Life.
2 Q And were the insurance companies, to the best of
3 your knowledge, were they aware of the process you were going
4 through?
5 A They were. Yes. I mean, that was the whole purpose
6 of me con -- I think Marcus had given me the name of Paul.
7 And I started out contacting him. And they were well aware,
8 when I contacted them for the first time, that what we were
9 doing.
10 Q And so there was -- this process was opened and
11 notorious to insurance companies and to at least to
12 Mr. Winchester and to Ms. williams' families to what was going
13 on?
14 A yeah. Everything was open. I had to -- in
15 preparing the petition, I had to have anybody that had an
16 adverse or a -- any kind of interest in the petition involved.
17 And, obviously, Kansas City Life, there's an insurance policy
18 on Mike's life. So they had to be involved as an interested
19 party.
20 Q And did you ultimately submit a petition to obtain
21 an order for a presumptive death certificate?
22 A I did.
23 Q Do you recall how Ms. williams got her copy of the
24 presumptive death certificate?
25 A I do not.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 635
1 MR. WAY: Nothing further, Your Honor.
2 CROSS-EXAMINATION
3 BY MR. FUCHS:
4 Q To get a presumptive death certificate, is that
5 something that's normally done?
6 A No. It's very rare.
7 Q when there's a missing person?
8 A Even more rare.
9 Q How long does it take, under normal circumstances,
10 to get a presumptive death certificate?
11 A under the statute, there's a five-year presumption
12 if somebody is missing from their last known domicile and
13 there's no satisfactory explanation of where they are. After
14 five years, the person can be presumed dead.
15 Q And in this situation, we obviously heard from --
16 Ms. Williams was there the first time with her father and
17 Brian Winchester.
18 A Correct.
19 Q Second time with Mr. Marcus Winchester and Brian,
20 possibly. Or you had conversations with them throughout.
21 A I don't -- yeah. Definitely, I had conversations.
22 I don't recall any further office visits. Denise had come in
23 to sign the presumption. And -- i mean, the petition and her
24 affidavit.
25 Q And we'll get to that in a second. So she's your
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 636
1 client.
2 A sheTs my client.
3 Q Okay.
4 A Correct.
5 Q And she actually has to come in and sign the
6 affidavit.
7 A Correct.
8 Q And she came in and signed the affidavit that
9 everythingwas very good with the marriage in doing this,
10 correct?
11 A Yes. I had her actually prepare a statement that I
12 could usein preparing her affidavit about her home life,
13 Mike's job,and everything else.
14 Q And she said that there was no marital problems at
15 that point,correct --
16 A None.
17 Q -- in that affidavit?
18 A None.
19 Q And also, in that, you said that you have to let all
20 interestedparties know, correct?
21 A Correct.
22 Q And you let Kansas City Life know.
23 A Correct.
24 Q Did you ever let Cotton States know?
25 A Didn't know anything about Cotton States.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 637
1 Q Ms. williams never informed you about the other
2 $500,000 policy from Cotton States, did she?
3 A I'm not aware of it. No.
4 Q Did she make you aware that she had filed earlier,
5 before even contacting you, that she had already applied to
6 try and get the life insurance policy from Kansas City Life?
7 A No. As far as I know, that was -- when they met
8 with me, that was their first interlude in trying to get
9 insurance policies for her.
10 MR. FUCHS: No further questions.
11 THE COURT: Redirect.
12 CROSS-EXAMINATION
13 BY MR. WAY:
14 Q But, Mr. Hunter, did you understand it that Marcus
15 winchester had handled insurance release Kansas City Life?
16 A Yes. Yes.
17 Q Did you under -- did you understand Marcus
18 winchester, also, to be a financial advisor to Ms. Williams?
19 A I had no idea.
20 Q The -- during the course of preparing the
21 certificate and the affidavit, did you obtain any information
22 to suggest that Ms. Williams and Mr. Williams had something
23 other than a happy marriage?
24 A No. No.
25 Q No one contacted you and questioned you about that
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER .:
1 particular provision of the affidavit?
2 A No. About their home life?
3 Q Yes.
4 A No.
5 Q The insurance companies ever raise any questions
6 about anything of that nature?
7 A I think they're well aware. I think -- I'm sure
8 Marcus had probably spoken to them several times and given
9 them all the background. So, no, they never questioned
10 anything.
11 MR. WAY: Nothing further, Your Honor.
12 THE COURT: Okay. Any juror have a question of this
13 witness? All right. You can step down. Do we need to
14 keep him any further?
15 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
16 THE COURT: You're free to go. Thank you for being
17 here.
18 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
19 THE COURT: Call your next witness.
20 (Witness exits.)
21 MR. WAY: Yes, sir.
22 THE COURT: Up here, please, sir. If you'd face the
23 clerk and be sworn, please, sir.
24 THE CLERK: Raise your right hand.
25 THE COURT: Have a seat.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 639
1 You may proceed.
2 MR. WAY: Thank you, Your Honor.
3 whereupon,
4 JAMES R. MARTIN, JR.
5 was called as a wttness, having been flrst duly sworn, was
6 examined and testfed as follows:
7 DIRECT EXAMINATION
8 BY MR. WAY:
9 Q Sir, could you please state and spell your name for
10 the record?
11 A James R. Martin, Jr. , J -A -M -E -S, M -A -R -T -I -N.
12 Q And, Mr. Martin, where do you live?
13 A Excuse me?
14 Q where do you live?
15 A Alligator Point.
16 Q Prior to moving to Alligator Point, did you live in
17 Tallahassee, Flori da?
18 A Yes, I did.
19 Q And where did you go to high school, sir?
20 A North Florida Christian.
21 Q And when did you graduate?
22 A 1998.
23 Q Do you know Denise Williams?
24 A Yes, I do.
25 Q How do you know Ms. williams?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 A I actually met her and Brian on the same day in the
2 ninth grade.
3 Q Did you know Mike williams?
4 A Yes, I did.
5 Q were you friends with Mike?
6 A Yes. Since kindergarten.
7 Q Do you know Brian winchester?
8 A Yes.
9 Q How do you know Mr. winchester?
10 A went to high school with him.
11 Q were you friends with Mr. winchester?
12 A In high school we were friends of the same group,
13 not necessarilytight friends. Became so later on.
14 Q And when did you and Mr. Winchester become closer
15 friends?
16 A Probably about three, four years ago.
17 Q Now, going back before you got closer in friendship
18 with Mr.Winchester, did know of -- did you know when Denise
19 ands MikeWilliams got married? Did you know they eventually
20 got marriedafter high school?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Did you have an opportunity to interact with them as
23 a marriedcouple?
24 A Interacted with Mike much more than with Mike and
25 Denise butkept up with both of them. Yes.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 641
1 Q From your observations, they have a happy marriage?
2 A i thought they had a very happy marriage.
3 Q Mike ever complain to you about anything in his
4 marriage?
5 A No. He was -- seemed absolutely thrilled. And
6 particularly when they had the birth of Anslee. I mean, he
7 was always a great individual, great father, and seemed
8 perfectly content.
9 Q Now, at some point in time, when you -- going
10 back -- forward to your time with friends with Mr. Winchester,
11 what kind of activities would you and Mr. Winchester do
12 together?
13 A Basically, we would mountain bike or fish.
14 Q Did you have an opportunity to observe
15 Mr. winchester's demeanor in 2016, for example? were you
16 fishing or mountain biking together?
17 A Yes. At that time we were mainly fishing together.
18 And each time we went out he seemed to be in good spirits and
19 enjoyed the day on the water.
20 Q Never any complaints about his pending divorce?
21 A we didn't discuss interpersonal items or really
22 politics, religion. I mean, we kept it -- it was definitely
23 escapism. we were out there. we enjoyed what we were doing
24 on the water and focused on that.
25 Q You go, you go fishing to get the small fish to turn
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 642
1 them into bigger fish later, right?
2 A Exactly.
3 Q But during the time -- for example, did you have an
4 opportunityto go fishing with Brian Winchester in July of
5 2016?
6 A I believe so. Yes.
7 Q And even though you didn't get into politics or
8 anythingelse that might be troubling to anybody, what was his
9 generaldemeanor? Did he -- was he happy? was he sad? was
10 he...
11 A Seemed to be in good spirits.
12 Q was, was his affect and presentation in July of 2016
13 the sameas you recall it from other months before going back
14 to whenyou would fish with him?
15 A Yes. Basically, yes.
16 Q Nothing to speak of, no concerns.
17 A No.
18 MR. WAY: Nothing further, Your Honor.
19 THE COURT: Cross.
20 CROSS-EXAMINATION
21 BY MR. ROGERS:
22 Q So in 2016 Brian Winchester seemed perfectly happy
23 with everythingin his personal life.
24 A Didn't discuss his personal life. Seemed perfectly
25 happy witha day on the water.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 643
1 Q It'sfair to say that people can hide what's really
2 going on in their personal life from their fishing buddies?
3 A I'dsay absolutely.
4 Q Andit would be perfectly fair to say that Mike
5 williams couldhide what's going on in his personal life from
6 his hunting buddy.
7 A Yes.
8 MR.ROGERS: Nothing further.
9 THECOURT: Anything further? Redirect?
10 MR.WAY: No, Your Honor.
11 THECOURT: Any juror have a question of this
12 witness? All right. You can step down. Do we need to
13 keep himfurther?
14 MR.WAY: No, Your Honor. He's released.
15 THEWITNESS: All right.
16 THECOURT: You're excused. Thank you for being
17 hear.
18 Callyour next witness.
19 MR.WAY: Agent Mike Phillips.
20 (Witness exits.)
21 THECOURT: If you'd face the clerk and be sworn,
22 please, sir.
23 THECLERK: Raise your right hand.
24 whereupon,
25 MIKE PHILLIPS
VERONICAG. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER .ii
1 was called as a witness, having been first duly sworn, was
2 examinedand testfled as follows:
3 DIRECT EXAMINATION
4 BY MR.WAY:
5 Q Sir, could you state and spell your name for the
6 record?
7 A Sure. Mike Phillips, M -I -K -E, P -H -I -L -L -I -P -S.
8 Q Mr. Phillips, how are you presently employed?
9 A I'm employed as a assistant special agent charged
10 with FloridaDepartment of Law Enforcement.
11 Q How long have you been with the Florida Department
12 of LawEnforcement?
13 A Twenty-one years.
14 Q Going back to about 1997, give or take?
15 A Correct.
16 Q The -- where did you go to high school?
17 A North Florida Christian.
18 Q Prior to becoming a special agent with the Florida
19 Departmentof Law Enforcement, did you know who Mike Williams
20 was?
21 A I did.
22 Q And how did you know who Mike Williams was?
23 A He was a friend of mine from childhood.
24 Q Did you know Denise in high school? She would have
25 been DeniseMerrell. Did you know Denise?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 645
1 A yeah. I knew her.
2 Q How did you know Ms. Merrell?
3 A she was the grade behind me and was -- we had mutual
4 friends.
5 Q Did you also know Brian winchester?
6 A I knew of him. yeah.
7 Q Did you, did you recognize him around school?
8 A I did. I do.
9 Q After you graduated from North Florida Christian,
10 did you everhave any occasions to have any interactions with
11 Brian Winchesterup until, say, December of 2000?
12 A Just an occasional passing by at a restaurant or
13 somewherelike that.
14 Q And when you would have an occasional passing by at
15 a restaurantor something, would he recognize you?
16 A oh, yeah. yeah.
17 Q And would you recognize him?
18 A I would.
19 Q I'm going to draw your attention to Saturday,
20 December16th, 2000. Are you aware of that as the date that
21 Mike Williamswent missing on Lake Seminole?
22 A lamnow.
23 Q Did you see Bryan winchester at a walmart on
24 December16th, 2000?
25 A I don't, I don't recall. My memory all started the
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 next day.
2 Q But you knew who Mike -- who Brian winchester was?
3 A I --yes.
4 Q And Brian winchester would have known who you were?
5 A Yes.
6 Q But you indicated that you had a memory of things
7 starting on the next day.
8 A Right.
9 Q what happened on the next day?
10 A I, at that time, led a small group with my church of
11 young married couples, and we were at some friendsT house
12 having dinner and, you know, doing our group thing. And when
13 it came time for a prayer request, a request was asked -- and
14 I apologize for just a second -- that Mike was missing. And
15 I,I distinctively remember that, that moment.
16 Q what did you do next?
17 A Finished out. we prayed, finished the event, said
18 goodbye, and then was trying to figure out how I could learn
19 more information about it and how I could help find him.
20 Q Did you ever have an occasion to go to Lake
21 seminole?
22 A I did.
23 Q After December 17th, 2000, did you ever see Brian
24 winchester at Lake Seminole?
25 A i did.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 647
1 Q Do you recall about when that was?
2 A I think it was that, that Monday. I, I went the
3 next -- i took the day off and, and went out there to help
4 search for Mike.
5 Q Did he see you?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Did you two talk?
8 A Briefly. Yeah. Because I was trying to -- you
9 know, i was wanting to learn what I could to find what had
10 happened to Mike. And that, that early in the morning, they
11 weren't letting us on the lake. Law enforcement was still --
12 and I was there as a citizen. Law enforcement was still doing
13 their search, so we were just standing on the bank talking.
14 Q And did -- at any time during that conversation on
15 the bank at Lake Seminole, did Mr. Winchester ever indicate to
16 you, hey,I remember seeing you at Walmart on Saturday?
17 A No.
18 Q Did seeing him on the bank at Lake Seminole jog your
19 memory into remembering that you had seen him just two days
20 before?
21 A No.
22 MR. WAY: Nothing further, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: Cross.
24 CROSS-EXAMINATION
25 BY MR. FUCHS:
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 Q Your memories start the day afterwards.
2 A Correct.
3 Q Nothing on December 16th made anything stand out, no
4 significance of that time until you found out, correct?
5 A I don't really remember that, that -- there is
6 nothing of significance from that day.
7 MR. FUCHS: No further questions.
8 THE COURT: Redirect.
9 MR. WAY: No redirect, Your Honor. The witness is
10 excused.
11 THE COURT: Okay. Any juror have a question of this
12 witness? All right. You can step down. Do you need him
13 for any reason, Mr. Fuchs?
14 MR. FUCHS: No.
15 THE COURT: All right. You're excused. Thank you
16 for being here.
17 (Witness exits.)
18 THE COURT: Call your next witness. The next
19 witness the one we need to talk to?
20 MR. WAY: Yes, it is, Your Honor.
21 THE COURT: I think you had an item of evidence you
22 were going to offer.
23 MR. WAY: I -- as to that witness, yes, Your Honor.
24 THE COURT: oh. I thought you were going to offer
25 it, regardless.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 MR. WAY: I --
2 THE COURT: It's all right.
3 we've got a witness that I'm going to need to hear
4 the testimony of and make a ruling. The timing is a
5 little awkward here. I'd hate for y'all to be sitting
6 back in the jury room while we do that. I think what
7 we'll do is just go ahead and take a lunch break now.
8 And we can be working while y'all go get some lunch.
9 Let's see. Why don't we plan to be back and ready to go
10 at 12:45. All right? y'all can step out.
11 (Jury exits.)
12 THE COURT: All right. We'll take five minutes.
13 Have your witness in then, please, Mr. Way.
14 MR. WAY: I will, Your Honor.
15 (Brief recess.)
16 THE BAILIFF: Court is back in session.
17 THE COURT: If you'd face the clerk and be sworn,
18 please, ma'am.
19 THE CLERK: Raise your right hand.
20 whereupon,
21 CHRISTIN GONZALEZ
22 was called as a witness, having been first duly sworn, was
23 examined and testfed as follows:
24 THE COURT: All right. Everybody be seated. Let
25 the record reflect this is a proffer. The jury is
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 650
1 outside the courtroom.
2 PROFFERED EXAMINATION
3 BY MR. WAY:
4 Q Ma'am, could you please state and spell your name
5 for the record.
6 A Christin Gonzalez, C -H -R -I -S -T -I -N, G -O -N -Z -A -L -E -Z.
7 Q Ms. Gonzalez how are you primary employed?
8 A I'm a marital and family law attorney at Novey and
9 Gonzalez,here in Tallahassee.
10 Q And you're a named partner in that law firm?
11 A lam.
12 Q The -- and if I understand correctly, that law firm
13 specializes in marital and family law?
14 A That's correct.
15 Q Did you have an occasion to represent Denise
16 williamsin a divorce action filed in Leon County against
17 Brian winchester?
18 A i did.
19 Q Do you recall when you became involved in that case
20 as Ms. Williams'attorney?
21 A It was early spring of 2016.
22 Q As a marital and family law lawyer, are you familiar
23 with theFlorida Rules of Family Law procedure?
24 A lam.
25 Q Do those rules require a certain amount of financial
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 651
1 documentation to be exchanged without court order?
2 A Yes, they do.
3 Q what is that called?
4 A It is called mandatory financial disclosure.
5 Q Is there also a requirement in a marital and family
6 law casethat the parties file a financial affidavit?
7 A Yes, there is. That is part of the mandatory
8 financialdisclosure.
9 Q Do you know why that is?
10 A It is so that all of the parties engaged in the
11 divorceare able to accurately disclose the identification of
12 assets,the valuation of assets, as well as liabilities and
13 income information.
14 Q Does that also help you, as an attorney, determine
15 what itemsmay be marital versus nonmarital?
16 A Yes, it does.
17 Q Does the distinction between marital versus
18 nonmaritalmake an impact in a divorce?
19 A It does.
20 Q Can you describe that, please?
21 A what is subject to equitable distribution in a
22 divorcecase are the marital assets that are accumulated from
23 the dateof the marriage up through the date that the petition
24 is filed. Any assets that are classified as nonmarital are
25 not subjectto equitable distribution.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 652
1 Q Is part of your role as the lawyer and as the
2 professional in a case to help determine what may be marital
3 and what may be nonmarital?
4 A Yes, it is.
5 Q As it relates specifically to the case involving
6 Denise williams, did you or your -- did you, as her attorney,
7 make an investigation into her facts and circumstances?
8 A Yes, I did.
9 Q Did you make a inter -- an inquiry as to the assets
10 and liabilities that she had pri -- at the time of the
11 divorce?
12 A I did.
13 Q Did you also make an inquiry into the assets and
14 liabilities that she had at the time of her marriage?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And did you also have an opportunity to make an
17 inquiry into any assets or liabilities that may have predated
18 the marriage to Brian winchester?
19 A i did.
20 Q And in the course of your representation of
21 Ms. Williams, did you cause to be prepared a family law
22 financial affidavit on behalf of the wife?
23 A i did.
24 Q was that financial affidavit prepared by your law
25 firm?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 653
1 A Itwas.
2 Q Was t preparedat your direction?
3 A Itwas.
4 Q was it preparedutilizing numbers that you felt
5 comfortable with based onyour own independent review and
6 work?
7 A Yes, it was.
8 MR. WAY: YourHonor, may I approach?
9 THE COURT: Youmay.
10 (Off-the-recorddiscussion.)
11 MR. WAY: May Iapproach the witness, Your Honor?
12 THE COURT: Youmay.
13 BY MR. WAY:
14 Q Ma'am, I'm goingto show you what is labeled as
15 Defendant's Exhibit 3 andask that you review that, please.
16 (Pause.)
17 THE WITNESS: Okay.
18 BY MR. WAY:
19 Q what is that, ma'am?
20 A This is Wife'sFamily Law Financial Affidavit that
21 is filedon April 3rd of2017.
22 Q okay. And whatwas the case number on that?
23 A The case numberis 2015DR2487.
24 Q Is that a courtfiling, here in Leon County,
25 Florida?
VERONICAG. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 654
1 A Yes, it is.
2 Q And the document that you're looking at, does it
3 bear the certificate of The clerk of Court showing that to be
4 a certified copy?
5 A Yes, it does.
6 Q Does that document reflect a certain amount of
7 nonmarital assets of Ms. williams as of the effective date of
8 the filing?
9 A Yes, it does.
10 Q And can you briefly describe the nature of those
11 assets just what they were and approximate values.
12 A Ms. Williams, as is reflected in this financial
13 affidavit, had a vanguard financial account with approximately
14 just under $650,000. She owned a piece of real property prior
15 to the marriage on Centennial Oaks Circle. She had some
16 retirement assets through the State of Florida; a deferred
17 comp account, valued at approximately $281,000; a lot on
18 Miller Landing Road; a lot on Duck Cove Road; two Capital City
19 Bank IRA5 valued at, cumulatively, $53,000.
20 Going back to those lots, those were each valued at
21 approximately $200,000 each. She owned a Fidelity IRA, valued
22 at $40,000. And a Wells Fargo IRA, valued at just over
23 $2,000.
24 Q And based on your determination and review -- let me
25 back up.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 655
1 So, for example, as it relates to the values that
2 were assigned to the real property, is that something that
3 your office would have been involved in calculating?
4 A It is, yes.
5 Q And that's based on your experience and your
6 knowledge as a family law attorney?
7 A That's correct.
8 Q Do those assets, to the best of your understanding,
9 total up to approximately $1.4 million total?
10 A There's not a total reflected on the financial
11 affidavit, but I believe that's correct.
12 Q Additionally, there were, there were marital assets
13 subject to distribution in this case, correct --
14 A Correct.
15 Q -- Ibelieve?
16 And based on your review and valuation, what was the
17 value of the marital estate before distribution or tax effect?
18 A Before distribution or tax effect,I have reflected
19 on the financial affidavit that the parties $1,490,010 in
20 marital assets.
21 Q That financial affidavit a true, correct, accurate
22 copy as you recall it being prepared?
23 A Yes, it is.
24 Q And that you signed it?
25 A i did.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 656
1 MR. WAY: Your Honor, I move what has been
2 previously marked for identification purposes as
3 Defendant's Exhibit 3 into evidence.
4 THE COURT: Okay. State still object?
5 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir.
6 THE COURT: I sustain the objection.
7 MR. WAY: No further questions, Your Honor.
8 I do believe that the government, we have an
9 agreement as to the admissibility of the Defendant's
10 Exhibit 2 by stipulation.
11 THE COURT: Right. And that was what I was trying
12 to do earlier. Maybe it wasn't clear what I was saying.
13 Did you want to offer something now? Are you going to
14 have her testify to that?
15 MR. WAY: Not with the stipulation from the
16 government. I donTt need that. So I have concluded my
17 examination of Ms. Gonzalez, Your Honor.
18 THE COURT: That's the entirety of the proffer?
19 MR. WAY: That is the entirety of the proffer, Your
20 Honor.
21 THE COURT: Do you wish to cross on the proffer for
22 any reason, Mr. Fuchs?
23 MR. FUCHS: No, Your Honor.
24 THE COURT: All right. You can step down.
25 State's -- or Defense Exhibit 2, I'm sorry, is
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 657
1 admitted. It's my understanding the State -- the StateTs
2 agreeing to that.
3 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir.
4 THE COURT: Okay.
5 MR. WAY: May I approach, Your Honor?
6 (Defendant's Exhibit No.2 received in evidence.)
7 THE COURT: You may.
8 (Witness exits.)
9 MR. WAY: Your Honor, I'm going to give the clerk
10 Exhibit -- Court's Exhibit 3.
11 THE COURT: Okay.
12 MR. WAY: There's also...
13 (Off-the-record discussion.)
14 THE COURT: So are you going to have further
15 testimony, Mr. Way?
16 MR. WAY: I am not, Your Honor. We do need to make
17 an inquiry.
18 THE COURT: All right. So youTve made a
19 determination that you don't believe that Ms. Williams is
20 going to testify; is that correct?
21 MR. WAY: I have made that determination, Your
22 Honor, in consultation with Ms. Williams and with
23 cocounsel.
24 THE COURT: All right. Let's place her under oath
25 please.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 whereupon,
2 DENISE WILLIAMS
3 was called as a wttness, having been flrst duly sworn, was
4 examined and testfled as follows:
5 EXAMINATION
6 THECOURT: ITm afraid -- let's get the podium in
7 the middle.
8 State your name, please, ma'am.
9 THE WITNESS: Denise Williams.
10 THECOURT: And, Ms. Williams, are you currently
11 under the influence of any alcohol, drug, or medication?
12 THE DEFENDANT: No.
13 THECOURT: Ms. Williams, Mr. way has indicated that
14 you do not desire to testify; is that correct?
15 THE DEFENDANT: Yes.
16 THECOURT: ITm not picking on you. I do this in
17 every case where a defendant decides not to testify. The
18 Courts have decided that there are certain things that
19 are the decision of a defendant. There are certain
20 strategy decisions that are decisions of the attorney.
21 One of the things the Courts have decided is up to the
22 defendant personally is whether to testify or not.
23 You have good attorneys, and you should consider
24 thei r advice. But, ul ti matel y, they' re not the ones on
25 trial. You're the one that's on trial. And only you can
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 659
1 decide whether you should testify or not. Do you
2 understandthat?
3 THEDEFENDANT: Yes.
4 THECOURT: Has anybody told you that you could not
5 testify?
6 THEDEFENDANT: No.
7 THECOURT: Has anybody pressured you into not
8 testifying?
9 THEDEFENDANT: No.
10 THECOURT: you understand, if you wish, you can?
11 THEDEFENDANT: Yes.
12 THECOURT: Itell you that you have an absolute
13 right totestify. You have an absolute right not to
14 testify. Should you decide not to testify,Iwould
15 instructthe jury that they're not to hold that against
16 you.
17 Ifyou decide to testify,Iwill tell them that they
18 should consider your testimony like any other witness.
19 Do you understandthat?
20 THEDEFENDANT: Yes.
21 THECOURT: Do you have any questions about your
22 right totestify?
23 THEDEFENDANT: No.
24 THECOURT: You understand you can testify if you
25 desire?
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER S.,
1 THEDEFENDANT: Yes, sir.
2 THECOURT: Do you wish to testify?
3 THEDEFENDANT: No.
4 THECOURT: Okay. Any further inquiry you think,
5 Mr. way?
6 MR.WAY: No, Your Honor.
7 THECOURT: All right. Thank you.
8 THEDEFENDANT: Thank you.
9 THECOURT: So, with that, y'all will be prepared to
10 rest thedefense case?
11 MR.WAY: Yes, Your Honor.
12 THECOURT: So how do y'all prefer to proceed time
13 wise?
14 MR.FUCHS: Your Honor, the State is going to
15 request that we -- throughout...
16 (Off-the-record discussion.)
17 MR.FUCHS: I don't have any rebuttal at this point.
18 TheState is going to request that we work on jury
19 instructionsthroughout the rest of the day and actually
20 ask the Court for a break for the remainder of the day
21 and start, ready to go with closing arguments tomorrow.
22 I understand that we're at the lunch hour now, and
23 we couldtheoretically get it to them this afternoon,
24 later thisafternoon. I've been dealing with a head cold
25 all week. I just -- and we, obviously, werenTt thinking
VERONICAG. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 661
1 we were going to get to closing arguments until Monday.
2 we are, obviously, way ahead of schedule. I would
3 request that we do that tomorrow.
4 THE COURT: okay. well, we need to let the defense
5 rest in front of the jury, and we need to work on jury
6 instructions.
7 Does the defense have a posture of how you prefer to
8 proceed?
9 MR. WAY: I agree with Mr. Fuchs, Your Honor, that,
10 given the timing and nature of the consideration for the
11 jury would be better to go to close tomorrow morning and
12 submit the case, hopefully, before lunch on Friday.
13 I believe that both Mr Fuchs and I and all the other
14 attorneys have done our best to move as fast as we can,
15 but sometimes we outkick the coverage. And I would
16 admit, Your Honor, that I'm not 100 percent prepared to
17 close today, but I would certainly be prepared tomorrow.
18 I also recognize that Mr. Fuchs is a little under the
19 weather, Your Honor. As a special courtesy, I would no
20 have -- no objection to him asking for a pass until
21 tomorrow morning for his close.
22 THE COURT: Yeah. And I don't have any pre --
23 preconceived -- I assumed we were going to instruct and
24 close tomorrow. we're just trying to work out a good
25 schedule of getting a jury in, getting the two minutes
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 662
1 more of what we need to do, and then getting them out of
2 here without it being real awkward. Ikind of hate that
3 we have them coming back. But, anyway, we'll do that.
4 think what we'll, we'll break until 12:45.
5 we'll have the jury in. Ithink probably be
6 appropriate to offer your exhibit in front of the jury,
7 Defense Exhibit 2 that I've admitted. And then you can
8 rest your case. ThenI'llexcuse them until tomorrow
9 morning. And we can proceed on with our discussion of
10 jury instructions.
11 Ineed to read the case law thatIreceived on the
12 request to amend the standard instructions. HopefullyI
13 get that done before 12:45. That would be our schedule,
14 if that works for everybody.
15 MR.FUCHS: Yes, sir.
16 THECOURT: Okay. So let's be prepared then to
17 discuss jury instructions. All right?
18 MR.FUCHS: Thank you, Your Honor.
19 THE BAILIFF: I've got one -- we have a transport
20 list this afternoon. That can be canceled?
21 MR.FUCHS: Yep.
22 THECOURT: All right. The State's not going to
23 have any rebuttal testimony?
24 MR.FUCHS: That is correct, Your Honor.
25 THECOURT: Okay. All right, we'll be in recess
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 663
1 until12:45.
2 (Lunch recess; continued in volume ****.)
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VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER ..i
CERTIFICATE
STATE OF FLORIDA:
COUNTY OF LEON:
I, VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, Official Court
Reporter, do hereby certify that the foregoing proceedings were taken before me at the time and place therein designated; that my shorthand notes were thereafter translated under my supervision; and the foregoing pages are a true and correct record of the aforesaid proceedings.
I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative, employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor relative or employee of such attorney or counsel, or financially interested in the foregoing action.
DATED this 14th day of March, 2019.
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER LEON COUNTY COURTHOUSE TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301
VERONICA G. MCCLELLAN, RPR, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 665 Filing # 88313799 E -Filed 04/22/2019 01:25:53 PM
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SECOND JUDICIAL CIRCUIT, IN AND FOR LEON COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. : 2018 -CF -001592
STATE OF FLORIDA VOLUME VI
vs. (Page 665 - 697)
DENISE WILLIAMS,
Defendant. -----/
*AM END ED*
PROCEEDINGS: JURY TRIAL
BEFORE: THE HONORABLE JAMES C. HANKINSON
DATE: December 13, 2018
TIME: commencing at 12:48 p.m. concluding at 1:32 p.m.
LOCATION: Leon County Courthouse Tallahassee, Florida
REPORTED BY: LISA BABCOCK, Official Court Reporter Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at Large Leon County Courthouse, Room 341 Tallahassee, FL 32301
LISA BABCOCK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 APPEARANCES
2 REPRESENTING THE STATE:
3 JON FUCHS, ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY JAMES A. ROGERS, ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY 4 OFFICE OF THE STATE ATTORNEY LEON COUNTY COURTHOUSE 5 TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301
6
7
8 REPRESENTING THE DEFENDANT:
9 ETHAN WAY, ESQUIRE WAY LAW FIRM, P.A. 10 1020 EAST LAFAYETTE STREET, SUITE 112 TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301-4546 11
12 PHILIP J.PADOVANO, ESQUIRE BRANNOCK & HUMPHRIES 13 131 NORTH GADSDEN STREET TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301-1507 14
15
16 INDEX
17 DEFENSE EXHIBITS: PAGE:
18 No. 2 667
19
20
21 Certificate of Reporter 697
22
23
24
25
LISA BABCOCK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 667
1 PROCEEDINGS
2 (Proceedings continued from volume v as follows:)
3 THE COURT: Are we ready for the jury?
4 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir.
5 THE COURT: Have the jury, please.
6 (Jury enters.)
7 THE COURT: Mr. way, you may call your next witness.
8 MR. WAY: Your Honor, the State and the defense have
9 come to a stipulation as to what has been marked for
10 identification purposes as Defendant's Exhibit 2. I
11 would like to move that into evidence, please.
12 THE COURT: Any objection from the State?
13 MR. FUCHS: No objection from the State, Your Honor.
14 THE COURT: All right. Defense Exhibit 2 will be
15 admitted.
16 Further testimony, Mr. way?
17 (Defense Exhibit No.2 received in evidence.)
18 MR. WAY: Your Honor, at this time the defense
19 rests.
20 THE COURT: All right. Does State have any
21 rebuttal?
22 MR. FUCHS: State does not have any rebuttal at this
23 time, Your Honor.
24 THE COURT: okay. That means you've heard all the
25 testimony you're going to hear. The next thing I'm going
LISA BABCOCK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER S.
1 to do is instruct you on the law. As you can imagine,
2 the instructions on the law are a little bit complicated
3 in this case, given the three charges that are before the
4 Court.
5 So while we were working on several other issues
6 while y'all were at lunch, we have not gotten to the jury
7 instructions yet. It's going to take us a while. And I
8 know y'all may be thinking, well, let's just move on, but
9 it's going to probably take me a couple hours to get
10 those sorted out, and I don't want y'all sitting back
11 there in the jury room while we're working on legal
12 issues.
13 So what we've decided, after discussion with the
14 attorneys, is we're better to let y'all go home for the
15 day. weTll start back first thing in the morning with
16 instructions and closing argument, and you should have
17 the case for your deliberations by lunch time tomorrow.
18 i know that it may appear we're kind of wasting an
19 afternoon, but it's not being wasted. It's just being
20 used in a little different fashion. I just don't want
21 you sitting back in the jury room while we do that. As
22 you see, we're still well ahead of the schedule that we
23 initially outlined so hopefully that works for everybody.
24 Now, we're coming down to the home stretch. Let's
25 not mess anything up by talking to somebody about the
LISA BABCOCK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 case or reviewing media accounts. You're hearing it all
2 first hand. we don't need any slip-up at this point in
3 time.
4 So what I'm going to ask is that you be back
5 tomorrow morning at 8:45. I apologize the way it worked
6 but we had something I had to resolve before we could
7 decide whether you were going to be going home for the
8 day or not, and I've made that decision. And that's why
9 we sent you to lunch and brought you back.
10 But anyway, so tomorrow, 8:45. Anybody have
11 questions about what's expected of you? we have
12 arranged -- we've got court admin to let you out. I
13 wasn't even thinking about you were kind of a captive
14 audience in terms of your parking. we have somebody
15 ready to get you out of the building, so we'll see y'all
16 tomorrow morning.
17 (Jury exits.)
18 THE COURT: I need to step out and get my notebook I
19 left sitting on the table. Y'all just be at ease for
20 just a moment.
21 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, can we approach real quick?
22 It doesn't need to be on the record.
23 (Discussion off the record.)
24 (A pause in the proceeding.)
25 THE COURT: All right. Defense wish to renew their
LISA BABCOCK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 670
1 motions for judgment of acquittal?
2 MR. PADOVANO: Yes, sir. without further argument,
3 we renew the motions -- the three motions for judgment of
4 acquittal and also the motion to compel.
5 THE COURT: Motion for what?
6 MR. PADOVANO: To compel an election between two
7 counts.
8 THE COURT: All right. And my ruling will be the
9 same. I know we -- I have one that's reserved and we
10 need to deal with that, and we'll deal with that
11 momentarily.
12 Mr. way?
13 MR. WAY: Your Honor, and I would renew all
14 evidentiary objections made during the course of the
15 trial
16 THE COURT: Okay. My rulings will be the same.
17 while it's fresh on my mind since I spent the lunch
18 hour working on it, let's go back to your special request
19 for jury instructions, Mr. Padovano, and your related
20 judgment of acquittal motion on that. I've had a chance
21 to do my research, and a little more comfortable with
22 that at this point in time. Do you wish to be heard
23 further?
24 MR. PADOVANO: No. I think the Court understands --
25 if you have a question, I'm happy --
LISA BABCOCK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 671
1 THE COURT: Mr. iay, will you get the podium for
2 him, please? I'm sorry.
3 MR. PADOVANO: No. I think if you had a question,
4 I'd be happy to try to answer it, but I believe the Court
5 understands the issue and don't believe that further
6 argument would be helpful to the Court.
7 THE COURT: Okay. All right. So as I understand
8 it, the defense has requested that the jury instructions
9 be modified to delete from the standard jury instruction
10 the words "or said some word," is my understanding of the
11 request. Correct, Mr. Padovano?
12 MR. PADOVANO: well,I think there may also be
13 something -- I'm sorry, Your Honor.
14 I think there may also be something in there about
15 encouraging or -- what I did with the one that I prepared
16 was to simply delete that whole phrase and just put in
17 that the defendant did some act. I just substituted the
18 whole phrase for "did some act."
19 THE COURT: Okay. So -- I can see now. I didn't
20 realize you'd modified it. But the basic distinction is
21 argument between "word" or "act" is the essence of it.
22 Is the -- is the State objecting to the modification
23 of the jury instruction?
24 MR. FUCHS: We are, Your Honor. I would cite to
25 case law. It is Morris v. State, 789 So. 2d 1032. it is
LISA BABCOCK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 672
1 also a First District Court of Appeal case out of 2001,
2 actually authored by Brad Thomas, I believe. Ironically
3 enough, Mr. Padovano was actually dissenting back then as
4 well.
5 But what it says in there is, 'TStatutory reference
6 to a prohibited act is commonly understood as
7 encompassing conduct or behavior which involves only
8 verbal statements or speech.'T So what it clearly adopts
9 there and the First DCA in 2001 clearly adopted speech as
10 being a part of a verbal act that would constitute for
11 the purposes of principal. Therefore --
12 In fact, when you read the statute, the statute
13 talks about verbal comments as well. It doesn't actually
14 say the word "verbal." I forgot the actual language it
15 actually uses, but it is something that indicates that it
16 encompasses some sort of communicational aspect between
17 the parties involved and, therefore, it is allowed by
18 statute.
19 And the State would propose -- would assert that a
20 verbal act -- conversations, words themselves, are, in
21 fact, a verbal act that can constitute for a principal
22 and ask for the standard jury instruction.
23 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Padovano?
24 MR. PADOVANO: If I might have a moment, Your Honor?
25 THE COURT: Sure.
LISA BABCOCK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 673
1 Give me that cite again, Mr. Fuchs.
2 MR. FUCHS: I gave it to Mr. Padovano, Your Honor.
3 THE COURT: Oh, I'm sorry.
4 MR. PADOVANO: I think this case was in the context
5 of the -- of a lewd and lascivious -- I'm sorry, in the
6 context of committing a lewd and lascivious act with a
7 child. And in that context, the Court said that that can
8 occur, you can commit that kind of an act with a child
9 with just words. But generally speaking, I think an act
10 is not the same thing as a word. It's a different thing.
11 And I hate to present an argument that is so simple, but
12 I think it is simple as that.
13 And I don't think that Judge Brad Thomas would have
14 written that opinion that says you need to commit an act
15 and actually reverse a conviction for a principal because
16 there was no evidence of an act if he did not mean that
17 you have to have an act.
18 THE COURT: Thank you, sir.
19 MR. FUCHS: And, Your Honor, the statute -- the stat
20 is Morris v. State, 789 So. 2d 1032.
21 THE COURT: All right. The defense has relied on
22 Staten and Ammons, and I've had opportunity over the
23 lunch break to read those and see whether they've been
24 cited previously. Certainly Staten has been cited many
25 times but not for the proposition presented by the
LISA BABCOCK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 674
1 defense. Ammons is a relatively new case so never cited.
2 But the proposition that words alone are
3 insufficient to sustain a conviction as a principal is
4 the basic tenant asserted by the defense. Both cases do
5 state that a conviction as a principal requires that the
6 aider and abettor, quote, do some act, end quote, towards
7 the commission of the crime. Therefore, I understand the
8 defense argument. That language is there.
9 However, the issue raised here of the distinction
10 between word and act was not the legal issue in either of
11 those cases. The issue in those cases was a level of
12 participation, not the form of participation, therefore,
13 the language cited is dicta. I can find no case that
14 says the standard jury instruction on principals is wrong
15 or incorrect even though it's been used, I'm sure,
16 thousands of times.
17 The Florida Supreme Court has frequently stated
18 standard jury instructions are presumed to be correct and
19 are preferred over special instructions. I understand
20 they also always issue a caveat that the instruction is
21 not a ruling on the law, but they are presumed to be
22 correct. And I can find no cases that have found this
23 particular instruction to be wrong, therefore, I'm going
24 to deny the request and give the standard jury
25 instruction.
LISA BABCOCK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 675
1 I'm also going to deny defendant's motion for
2 judgment of acquittal on the charge of first degree
3 murder that I previously reserved, which raises the same
4 issue. I think there's sufficient evidence for it to go
5 to the jury as to whether Ms. Williams' actions were
6 sufficient to be a principal in the case. So I wanted to
7 get that issue out of the way.
8 Anything else on that particular issue?
9 MR. FUCHS: Not from the State, Your Honor.
10 MR. PADOVANO: And not from the defense. I don't
11 know if I'm required procedurally to renew after this
12 ruling, but if I am,I renew it.
13 THE COURT: I'll let you object after they're
14 delivered. I think that would --
15 MR. PADOVANO: Well,I was -- I was actually
16 referring to the judgment of acquittal argument.
17 THE COURT: Certainly. My ruling will be the same.
18 All right. Are y'all ready to discuss the rest of
19 the jury instructions?
20 MR. FUCHS: Yes, Your Honor.
21 THE COURT: And y'all can remain seated during this
22 process. Let's just go through them from the start.
23 As to the statement of charge on Count I, conspiracy
24 for first degree murder, let's take up just the first
25 page and the top part of the second page, which would be
LISA BABCOCK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 676
1 the basic instruction on law. Anybody have an objection
2 or found some error or even found some typographical
3 error that needs to be corrected?
4 MR. FUCHS: I have not, Your Honor.
5 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
6 THE COURT: What lessers is the defense seeking?
7 MR. WAY: We are not seeking any additional lessers,
8 Your Honor.
9 THE COURT: Do you not want any lessers?
10 MR. WAY: I do not want any lessers.
11 THE COURT: Mr. Fuchs?
12 MR. FUCHS: Give me one moment, Your Honor.
13 State is not requesting any lessers, Your Honor.
14 THE COURT: It's not?
15 MR. FUCHS: It's not.
16 THE COURT: All right. So we'll strike the
17 paragraph that says, "When there are lesser included
18 crimes," and the language about second degree murder,
19 manslaughter being defined. We're all in agreement?
20 MR. WAY: Yes, Your Honor.
21 THE COURT: Mr. Fuchs?
22 MR. FUCHS: I agree.
23 THE COURT: All right. Now, I think Mr. Padovano
24 has already indicated he is requesting the renunciation
25 instruction. I just highlighted that because it's in
LISA BABCOCK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 677
1 the -- not always given in all cases. That's why I
2 highlighted it.
3 was that my understanding, Mr. Padovano? Or who's
4 responding on that?
5 MR. PADOVANO: Yes, sir, we request that part.
6 THE COURT: Okay. You don't have to stand up for
7 this.
8 what's the State's position?
9 MR. FUCHS: The aspect that's highlighted? Is that
10 what we're talking about?
11 THE COURT: Right.
12 MR. FUCHS: Yes,I agree.
13 THE COURT: You do not object?
14 MR. FUCHS: I do not object to it being there.
15 THE COURT: All right. So I'll remove the
16 highlighting. Anybody found any errors in there?
17 think it's just the standard instruction to the extent it
18 was --
19 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, I apologize. I would
20 object. The renunciation -- they are appearing to argue
21 renunciation. And that second paragraph, renunciation --
22 where it says "Renunciation is not complete and voluntary
23 when a crime -- completed by unanticipated" -- I'm sorry,
24 Madam Reporter -- "unanticipated difficulties, unexpected
25 resistence, or a decision to postpone the crime," I think
LISA BABCOCK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 is definitely applicable in this situation.
2 THE COURT: All right. I'll overrule the State's
3 objection. I'll give the instruction.
4 Have you found any errors or mistakes in it?
5 MR. FUCHS: No.
6 THE COURT: All right. That'll take us to Count II,
7 first degree murder. Introduction to homicide,
8 justifiable homicide, excusable homicide. Let's take it
9 through there, which would be halfway through page 4.
10 Anybody found any errors or have any objections?
11 MR. FUCHS: No, sir.
12 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
13 THE COURT: The instruction on first degree murder
14 starts the middle of page 4, goes over to page 5.
15 Anybody found any errors or have any objection?
16 MR. FUCHS: No, sir.
17 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
18 THE COURT: Second degree murder. I think it's just
19 the standard instruction, but anybody found any errors or
20 have any objection -- well, I guess we -- I guess I need
21 to go back.
22 Is -- are the lessers being requested on this, on
23 the Count II, Mr. way?
24 MR. WAY: we're not requesting the lessers, Your
25 Honor.
LISA BABCOCK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 679
1 THE COURT: what's the State's position?
2 MR. FUCHS: State agrees, Your Honor.
3 THE COURT: So you want to strike -- so we're just
4 going to go with first degree murder on the Count II.
5 That's everybody's understanding?
6 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir.
7 MR. WAY: Yes, Your Honor.
8 THE COURT: So on page four 4 where it says "For any
9 lesser included crime," I will strike that. And then I
10 will strike second degree murder, manslaughter.
11 At some point in time, Mr. Way, I think I want to
12 hear from your client that she's in agreement with this
13 strategy. we can do that -- if you want to talk to her
14 first, I don't know.
15 MR. WAY: Sure, Your Honor.
16 THE COURT: On page 6 and 7, we've already talked
17 about principals. I've overruled the defense request to
18 modify it, but is there further argument on the principal
19 instruction?
20 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
21 MR. FUCHS: No, Your Honor.
22 THE COURT: Okay. Is the defense -- sometimes we
23 have -- seem to pair with that an independent act
24 instruction. Is the defense seeking that?
25 MR. WAY: One moment, Your Honor.
LISA BABCOCK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 THE COURT: Certainly.
2 MR. WAY: Yes, Your Honor. We'd be requesting the
3 independent act instruction, pursuant to 3.16(1) [sic].
4 THE COURT: State want to be heard on that?
5 MR. FUCHS: No, Your Honor.
6 THE COURT: Okay. So I'll add that -- add that to
7 it. I think it's a standard instruction. I don't think
8 there's anything unusual about it. But anyway, we'll
9 give you a chance to see it before we finalize that.
10 MR. WAY: Yes, sir.
11 THE COURT: Count iii, accessory after the fact,
12 first degree murder. Anybody found any errors or have
13 any objection as to the instruction on page 7 as to
14 accessory after the fact?
15 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
16 MR. FUCHS: No, sir.
17 THE COURT: What's the defense position on lessers
18 on this?
19 MR. WAY: We're not requesting any lessers, Your
20 Honor.
21 THE COURT: State?
22 MR. FUCHS: Not requesting. We concur.
23 THE COURT: Okay. Plea of not guilty, reasonable
24 doubt is standard instruction on page 8 and 9. Anybody
25 have objection to that?
LISA BABCOCK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 MR. WAY: No.
2 MR. FUCHS: No.
3 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
4 THE COURT: weighing the evidence. One through five
5 are given in all cases. Six through ten are optional
6 I'll hear first from the defense as to which you want of
7 six through ten.
8 MR. WAY: Six, Your Honor, eight, nine.
9 THE COURT: Were you done? I'm sorry.
10 MR. WAY: Oh, I'm sorry. I apologize, Your Honor.
11 No, those were the -- just the --
12 THE COURT: Okay. State?
13 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, I don't believe that there
14 was any impeachment with prior statements that were
15 given, so State would object to the inconsistent
16 statement aspect.
17 THE COURT: That's up to the jury to decide so I'll
18 leave that to them. So we'll strike seven and ten, and
19 renumber the others.
20 All right. we just work through this by paragraph
21 from there. Next paragraph is given in all cases as the
22 State's burden of proof. The next is the instruction on
23 law enforcement witnesses.
24 Does the defense want the instruction on law
25 enforcement witnesses?
LISA BABCOCK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 MR. WAY: Yes, Your Honor.
2 THE COURT: Expert witness -- the State want to be
3 heard on that?
4 MR. FUCHS: No, sir. I was coughing, I apologize.
5 THE COURT: Expert witnesses, is that requested?
6 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
7 THE COURT: State?
8 MR. FUCHS: I say leave it. We had an expert
9 witness here. we had Dr. Flannagan.
10 THE COURT: Any legal reason not to give it,
11 Mr. Way?
12 MR. WAY: No. No, Your Honor. That's fine as to
13 Dr. Flannagan.
14 THE COURT: All right. The next paragraph is the
15 cooperating witness or accomplice paragraph. I assume
16 the State -- the defense is seeking that?
17 MR. WAY: Absolutely, Your Honor.
18 THE COURT: The instruction gives three options in
19 the disjunctive. I've put them all in there in the
20 conjunctive. I think they're all arguably applicable but
21 need to look at that. So that would be the -- what I'm
22 referring to would be the second full sentence.
23 For example, a witness who claims to have helped the
24 defendant commit a crime, is one option, who has been
25 promised immunity from prosecution or who hopes is -- or
LISA BABCOCK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 who hopes to gain more favorable treatment -- I'm sorry,
2 who has been promised immunity from prosecution is a
3 second option, or who hopes to gain more favorable
4 treatment in his or her own case is the third option.
5 The way the jury instructions are set up,I thought
6 all three were arguably applicable so I just put all
7 three in there, but that is a slight deviation from the
8 way the standard is set up.
9 MR. WAY: There would be no objection from the
10 defense to the proposed modification to the standard
11 instruction. We would accept it.
12 THE COURT: Mr. Fuchs?
13 MR. FUCHS: No objection, Your Honor.
14 THE COURT: Okay. we did not have a child witness
15 so -- as I recall so I would strike the next paragraph.
16 We in agreement?
17 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir.
18 MR. WAY: Yes, Your Honor.
19 THE COURT: Okay. The defendant did not become a
20 witness so I'll strike the next option.
21 I like to give the next paragraph. You never knoti
22 when a juror has seen you talking to a witness so --
23 although it's an optional one,I always give it. And
24 then the last one is given in all cases. Any issues on
25 any of that?
LISA BABCOCK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 MR. FUCHS: No, sir.
2 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
3 THE COURT: Defendant not testifying, is the defense
4 seeking that instruction?
5 MR. WAY: We are, Your Honor.
6 THE COURT: Both paragraphs?
7 MR. WAY: Both paragraphs, Your Honor.
8 THE COURT: Okay. I don't believe there was any
9 custodial interrogation of the defendant, so it would be
10 my intention to strike the next -- defendant's
11 statements. But you can be heard if you disagree,
12 Mr. Way.
13 MR. WAY: I do not disagree, Your Honor.
14 MR. FUCHS: The only potential issue is the fact
15 that whenever Mr. Devaney talked to her at the kidnapping
16 aspect of it, the only time that -- I mean, the State
17 does intend to argue, of course, that she didn't tell law
18 enforcement about Brian's involvement. In fact, she made
19 affirmative statements to Mr. Devaney that he was not
20 involved and things along those lines, so I just want to
21 make sure that's clear. I don't have a problem with --
22 THE COURT: That doesn't have anything to do with
23 this paragraph.
24 MR. FUCHS: I agree but --
25 THE COURT: This is not --
LISA BABCOCK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 MR. PADOVANO: If I could be heard for a second, I'm
2 not sure how it's not a comment on her failure to
3 testify. I mean, he's going to put -- he's going to --
4 THE COURT: Let's table that. Let's get through the
5 instructions and -- because I wasn't clearly following
6 what he said. Let's -- remind me to come back to that.
7 Let's get through the instructions.
8 Rules for deliberation, just the standard
9 instruction. Anybody have an issue with that or found an
10 error?
11 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
12 THE COURT: I think there were a couple of questions
13 we did not answer so paragraph 7 would be appropriate.
14 Sometimes I take that out, but there were a couple of
15 juror questions that we did not ask.
16 Cautionary instruction is a standard instruction.
17 Single defendant, multiple counts, only thing I've done,
18 I've changed the order because I like to do the verdict
19 last before we break for the closing argument. But it's
20 just the standard instruction. And the verdict
21 instruction, standard instruction. Anybody have an issue
22 with that?
23 MR. FUCHS: No, sir.
24 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
25 THE COURT: The submitting case to the jury, there
LISA BABCOCK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 are some different options, and I've changed the wording
2 just slightly. I don't think it's anything very
3 significant, but there are some slight deviations from
4 the standard on submitting case to the jury about how we
5 deal with cell phones.
6 And i did add in a -- something that I think has
7 been proposed now but wasn't -- I don't think is in the
8 standards as of yet, is about if you've voted, do not
9 disclose the actual vote in the note if they have a
10 question. I don't think any of that's very
11 controversial, but does anybody have an issue with any of
12 that?
13 MR. FUCHS: No, sir.
14 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: All right. Any additional instructions
16 either side is seeking?
17 MR. FUCHS: No, sir.
18 MR. WAY: Not that has previously been argued and
19 ruled on.
20 THE COURT: Okay. All right. So on the verdict,
21 we'll need to take out all the lessers. Other than that,
22 anybody found a problem with the verdict form?
23 MR. FUCHS: No, sir.
24 MR. WAY: Your Honor, in light of the fact that the
25 State of Florida bears the burden of proof and the
LISA BABCOCK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 defendant is presumed guilty under the state and federal
2 constitution -- presumed innocent, I would respectfully
3 request the D be moved to A on all three verdict forms.
4 THE COURT: I deny that request.
5 Okay. Anything else on jury instructions?
6 MR. FUCHS: No, sir.
7 THE COURT: All right. Y'all raised an issue, and
8 I'm sorry, I didn't quite follow what the issue was.
9 what were you -- come up, if you would, to the podium,
10 Mr. Fuchs.
11 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, on the day of the
12 kidnapping, Ms. Williams was there at Leon County
13 Sheriff's Department talking to law enforcement. Mike --
14 or Mr -- Agent Devaney came in and talked to her and
15 questioned her about Brian's involvement in the missing
16 Mike Williams at that point.
17 And she said,I do not believe he's involved. In
18 fact,I would have never married him -- the things that
19 she said to Mr. Devaney, again, that was there at the
20 Leon County Sheriff's Department. That's why I was
21 bringing up the issues of -- and of course that's part of
22 the aspect that -- I mean, those actions will be brought
23 up during the course of the closing arguments.
24 THE COURT: All right. Well, that's not custodial
25 interrogation, which is what I was talking about.
LISA BABCOCK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER S..
1 And you were raising some issue as to that,
2 Mr. Padovano?
3 MR. PADOVANO: Yes, sir. But actually, in all
4 candor, Your Honor, I was thinking of something else.
5 think that statement is not a comment on silence, and I
6 think that he can talk about that. But I don't believe
7 that the instruction is necessary because it's not an
8 incriminating statement.
9 But what i was just -- just to clear it up, what I
10 was referring to is during the course of the trial, there
11 was an incident -- another incident where the State
12 elicited testimony about how another law enforcement
13 officer tried to question Denise Williams but that she
14 refused to talk to him. And I forgot the name of that
15 law enforcement -- and that's what I was thinking of.
16 THE COURT: Are we talking about during the FSU --
17 MR. PADOVANO: It was somewhere -- it was somewhere
18 in there. And, I'm sorry, I don't remember the person's
19 name, but I just think we need to stay away from that.
20 mean, that's a comment on silence, you know.
21 THE COURT: Frankly, it was kind of confusing. But
22 there was something in -- that was elicited after the
23 attempted bump of -- and that was the term y'all used --
24 the attempted bump of Ms. Williams that Investigator
25 Mickler said that she didn't contact him, that he asked
LISA BABCOCK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 to sit down with her and she never responded. Is that
2 what you're referring to?
3 MR. PADOVANO: I think so, yes, sir.
4 MR. WAY: Yes, Your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Mr. Fuchs?
6 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, the fact that she refused to
7 talk to law enforcement goes directly -- let me rephrase
8 it. I don't mean refused to talk to law enforcement in
9 violation of her constitutional right to not talk to law
10 enforcement.
11 what I'm referring to with that is that she was
12 reaching out in constant communication with the Florida
13 State university Police Department, as testified by
14 Sergeant wooten, about the bump aspect and the things
15 that surrounded that. When she was then informed that it
16 was handed off to Florida Department of Law Enforcement
17 for that investigation, of which she would have been a
18 victim, at that point she stopped responding to Florida
19 Department of Law Enforcement contact as a victim, not as
20 in an interrogational aspect.
21 And I think that goes directly towards the aspect of
22 the statement that she made to Kathy Thomas where she
23 said, Please tell him I didn't tell them anything. And
24 it just goes to show ongoing actions of her in order to
25 not communicate with Florida Department of Law
LISA BABCOCK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 Enforcement because of the fact they were involved in the
2 investigation of Mike williams.
3 THE COURT: I think that the way it came in, it was
4 legally admissible, but I think it could easily lead to
5 an improper comment. And, frankly, it's not very -- the
6 way it came across was not very significant, frankly. I
7 mean, she was -- the allegation was she screamed and ran
8 away from law enforcement, and then they wanted to talk
9 to her about it. I mean, frankly, it was very confusing.
10 what do you wish me to direct, Mr. Padovano?
11 MR. PADOVANO: Not to -- that counsel for the State
12 not state or imply that Ms. Williams declined or refused
13 to talk to the law enforcement officer. It's a comment
14 on her silence.
15 THE COURT: well, it's a little bit confused because
16 it relates to an alleged crime she is asserting. I mean,
17 she's asking to investigate the parking lot incident.
18 But, frankly, Mr. Fuchs,I think it has the
19 potential to cause a comment on the right to remain
20 silent, so I'm going to ask that you stay out of that
21 particular statement by Mickler about that he asked her
22 to talk to him and she refused to -- or she didn't
23 refuse. She just never responded, is what I noted the
24 testimony was. I think that is going to be perilously
25 close to a comment on the right to remain silent, and I
LISA BABCOCK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 691
1 think you just need to stay out of it.
2 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir. I don't have a problem with
3 that. The only issue I have then is I would ask the
4 Court to also put a limitation on the defense then for
5 making the argument that she was all about cooperating
6 with law enforcement during the course of that aspect,
7 because that goes --
8 THE COURT: Rebuttal is a different time. And if
9 you think they've opened the door to some comment on it
10 by their argument, just bring it to my attention --
11 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir.
12 THE COURT: -- and I'll deal with it then.
13 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir.
14 THE COURT: I think trying to deal with
15 hypotheticals before they happen is very difficult so --
16 I'm not as good at the mental gymnastics at doing that.
17 But anyway, so if you think they've raised -- opened
18 the door to that, then just bring it to my attention.
19 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir. Thank you.
20 THE COURT: I think the defense should be on fair
21 warning that broaching that may result in some comment
22 from the State in rebuttal.
23 MR. WAY: Acknowledged, Your Honor.
24 THE COURT: Okay. All right. What else?
25 MR. FUCHS: That's all the State has, Your Honor.
LISA BABCOCK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 692
1 MR. WAY: Your Honor, may I have a few moments with
2 my client, and then we'll address your earlier concern?
3 THE COURT: Right.
4 (A pause in the proceeding.)
5 THE COURT: Are we ready?
6 MR. WAY: Yes, Your Honor.
7 THE COURT: All right. So you've discussed with
8 Ms. Williams your request not to give any lesser included
9 offenses?
10 MR. WAY: I have, Your Honor.
11 THE COURT: And it's your belief she agrees with
12 that strategy decision?
13 MR. WAY: Yes, Your Honor. Ms. Williams has
14 discussed the matter with myself, with Mr. Padovano,
15 Mr. Buchanan, and agrees with our decision to
16 respectfully exclude lesser includeds as to all three
17 counts in the indictment.
18 THE COURT: Is that correct, Ms. Williams?
19 THE DEFENDANT: Yes.
20 THE COURT: You feel like you have an understanding
21 of what's being discussed?
22 THE DEFENDANT: Yes.
23 THE COURT: You've had adequate time to talk about
24 it?
25 THE DEFENDANT: Yes.
LISA BABCOCK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 693
1 THE COURT: This is a strategy decision. It's not
2 one of those special things that I said that courts have
3 held defendants have the absolute decision on, but it is
4 a relatively radical decision that's not made in many
5 cases. Do you understand it's a little bit out of the
6 ordi nary?
7 THE DEFENDANT: Yes.
8 THE COURT: I guess, for want of a better word, it's
9 a little bit of a gamble. If convicted as charged on
10 first degree murder and probably, to some extent, the
11 other charges, my hands are going to be tied to a large
12 extent on sentencing. Do you understand that?
13 THE DEFENDANT: Yes.
14 THE COURT: For instance -- and I haven't studied
15 Count I and Count III, but I know on Count II if you're
16 convicted as charged, it will be a life sentence. That's
17 the only legal sentence I can impose. It probably has
18 significant ramifications on Count I and III, but as I
19 say,I hadn't really figured that out in great detail at
20 this point in time. Do you understand that's the result
21 of it?
22 THE DEFENDANT: Yes.
23 THE COURT: Do you have any questions about what's
24 going on in terms of waiving the lesser included
25 offenses?
LISA BABCOCK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 THE DEFENDANT: No.
2 THE COURT: You know you are legally entitled to
3 those lesser includeds if you want them to be given?
4 That is, they're legally provided for at your request.
5 Do you understand that?
6 THE DEFENDANT: Yes.
7 THE COURT: And you're specifically waiving
8 that? That means, you know, next year, next month, two
9 years from now, you're not going to be able to come back
10 and say, you know, those should have been given. You're
11 waiving that legal argument.
12 THE DEFENDANT: Right. Correct.
13 THE COURT: Do you understand that?
14 THE DEFENDANT: Yes.
15 THE COURT: You need any more time to talk to
16 Mr. Way or Mr. Padovano about this?
17 THE DEFENDANT: No.
18 THE COURT: That is your request?
19 THE DEFENDANT: Yes.
20 THE COURT: That you waive the lesser included
21 offenses?
22 THE DEFENDANT: Yes.
23 THE COURT: Okay. Anything further you think we
24 should make a record, Mr. Way?
25 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
LISA BABCOCK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 695
1 THE COURT: Okay. Anything from the State?
2 MR. FUCHS: No, Your Honor.
3 THE COURT: Okay. Y'all can have a seat. Thank
4 you.
5 All right. I will go get the instructions
6 finalized. If -- I guess if -- I can't imagine anybody
7 is going to find anything major since we've gone over it,
8 but if it was some major problem, I guess I'd like to be
9 alerted today. Other than that, we'll just be here at
10 8:30. if you find some simple typo that everybody agrees
11 on just needs to be fixed, you can just e-mail my
12 judicial assistant. what I'd like to do is be able to go
13 ahead and make copies this evening and be ready to start.
14 But anyway, you want me to e-mail the instructions
15 to you? Is that your request?
16 MR. WAY: Yes, Your Honor.
17 MR. FUCHS: Please.
18 THE COURT: All right. So I'll e-mail those to you.
19 I don't desire to hear legal argument. As I say, if
20 there's something that everybody agrees, we just have a
21 typo, let my judicial assistant know that. We'll fix
22 that.
23 Other than that, we'll see you all in the morning at
24 8:30. All right?
25 MR. FUCHS: Thank you, Your Honor.
LISA BABCOCK, OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 1 THE COURT: We'll be in recess.
2 (Proceedings adjourned at 1:32 p.m.)
3 (Continued to 12/14/2018, volumeVII.)
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LISA BABCOCK, OFFICIALCOURT REPORTER 697
1 CERTIFICATE
2 STATE OF FLORIDA:
3 COUNTY OF LEON:
4 I, LISA A. BABCOCK, official Court Reporter, do
5 hereby certify that the foregoing proceedings were taken
6 before me at the time and place therein designated; that my
7 shorthand notes were thereafter translated under my
8 supervision; and the foregoing pages are a true and correct
9 record of the aforesaid proceedings.
10 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative,
11 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor
12 relative or employee of such attorney or counsel, or
13 financially interested in the foregoing action.
14
15 DATED this 17th day of April 2019.
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20 LISA A. BABCOCK OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 21 LEON COUNTY COURTHOUSE TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301 22
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25 Filing # 88316139 E -Filed 04/22/2019 01:47:52 PM
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SECOND JUDICIAL CIRCUIT, IN AND FOR LEON COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO.: 2018CF1592
STATE OF FLORIDA
vs.
DENISE WILLIAMS,
Defendant. ______/ *AMENDED*
Volume VII Page 698-798
PROCEEDINGS: JURY TRIAL
BEFORE: THE HONORABLE JAMES C. HANKINSON
DATE: December 14, 2018
TIME: Commencing at 8:32 a.m. Concluding at 7:42 p.m.
LOCATION: Leon County Courthouse Tallahassee, Florida
REPORTED BY: Johana M. Kesterson, Official Reporter Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at Large
JOHANA M. KESTERSON Official Court Reporter Leon County Courthouse, Room 341 Tallahassee, FL 32301 S.. 1 APPEARANCES
2 REPRESENTING THE STATE: 3 JON FUCHS, ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY 4 JAMES ROGERS, ASSISTANT STATE ATTORNEY OFFICE OF THE STATE ATTORNEY 5 LEON COUNTY COURTHOUSE TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301 6
7 REPRESENTING THE DEFENDANT:
8 ETHAN WAY, ESQUIRE WAY LAW FIRM 9 P.O. BOX 10017 TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32302 10 PHILIP J. PADOVANO 11 BRANNOCK & HUMPHRIES 131 N. GADSDEN STREET 12 TALLAHASSEE, FL. 32301
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25 700 1 PROCEEDINGS
2 THE COURT: All right. we're here in State of
3 Florida versus Denise williams, 2018-1592. Let the
4 record reflect Ms. williams is present with her
5 attorneys.
6 I sent in what I hope is the final version of the
7 jury instructions for y'all to look at. Mr. Padavano had
8 pointed out a couple of things. So let me just tell you
9 what's changed from what we had before.
10 On page 2 and on the renunciation defense, I decided
11 the wording -- I mean, he had pointed out it was
12 grammatically in question. I thought -- I decided the
13 wording of it was just unnecessarily wordy. So I just
14 put murder instead of unlawful killing of a human being.
15 I think I worded it that way to start with because
16 there were potential lesser includeds and I didn't want
17 to be too specific. But those have been done away with.
18 So I think that language is more to the point and
19 clearer.
20 There was also, in the first paragraph of the
21 renunciation, on the -- it had voluntary renunciation of
22 his criminal purpose. It should be "her" criminal
23 purpose and I've made that change. Everybody with me on
24 that change?
25 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir. 701 1 MR.WAY: Yes, Your Honor.
2 THECOURT: There were a couple of others that were
3 just typographical fixes. And then the only other
4 substantiative change was in verdict. It has referred to
5 lesser includeds. of course, we don't have any lesser
6 includeds, so -- that's on page 10. Those are the only
7 substantive changes.
8 Anybody found anything else or have any issues to
9 rai se?
10 MR.FUCHS: No, sir.
11 MR.WAY: No, Your Honor.
12 THECOURT: So,asIrecall, and correct me if I'm
13 wrong, the only substantive objection is by the defense
14 as to the principal definition. And the State is
15 objecting to the renunciation language. That's my
16 recollection of the only objections that have been --
17 MR.FUCHS: And, Your Honor,Ithink the objection
18 by the State was becauseImisunderstood what you were
19 saying. Iactually do not have an objection to --
20 THECOURT: Okay.
21 MR.FUCHS: The language that's in here,Ihave no
22 problem with.
23 THECOURT: Okay.
24 MR.PADAVANO: And the remaining part, that's
25 correct, Your Honor. 702 1 THE COURT: Okay.
2 MR. PADAVANO: Your recitation is correct.
3 THE COURT: All right. So any other issues this
4 morning before we proceed to instructions?
5 MR. FUCHS: None from the State, Your Honor.
6 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
7 THE COURT: And, I guess, y'all assume -- I guess I
8 shouldn't assume that you know, but I'll instruct on
9 the -- I'll instruct first and then have the closings,
10 except for the final provision after that.
11 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, I do apologize. I do have
12 one ore tenus motion in limine regarding closing
13 arguments. And I don't believe Mr. way will do this
14 because he knows it's not proper, but there should not be
15 any mention of the sentences or potential sentences for
16 Ms. Williams during the course of the closing arguments.
17 That would be my motion.
18 THE COURT: Mr. Way.
19 MR. WAY: I've done this long enough to know not to
20 step on that third rail, Your Honor.
21 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
22 All right. We don't have all the jurors. I didn't
23 tell them to be here until 8:45. So if we figure we'll
24 start as soon after 8:45 as we have all the jurors
25 present. 703 1 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir.
2 THE COURT: You have something, Mr. way?
3 MR. WAY: Your Honor, are there going to be any time
4 limitations on summation?
5 THE COURT: well,I mean, I think good attorneys put
6 time limitations on themselves. I'm not going to --I
7 don't think either one of y'all are going to ruin your
8 case by talking forever, so --
9 Anyhow. All right.
10 MR. WAY: Yes, sir.
11 THE COURT: Anything else?
12 MR. FUCHS: No, sir.
13 We're in recess, correct, Your Honor?
14 THE COURT: Yes.
15 (A recess was had.)
16 MR. PADAVANO: Your Honor.
17 THE COURT: Do we need to go back on the record?
18 MR. PADAVANO: I think so, Your Honor.
19 On the first paragraph it -- did you mean to say
20 renunciation of his criminal purpose on the first
21 paragraph of --
22 THE COURT: Right. I changed that. That's one
23 thing I said. I know your copy doesn't have that.
24 MR. PADAVANO: Okay. I didn't realize this was not
25 the final. 704 1 THE COURT: I have changed that.
2 MR. PADAVANO: Thank you.
3 (A recess was had.)
4 THE COURT: All right. Let's have the jury, please.
5 (Jury enters.)
6 THE COURT: All right. Everybody be seated, please.
7 Thank you for being back here this rainy morning.
8 understand Mr. Adams is keeping y'all with a sugar high
9 with some donuts. Is that what I understand?
10 So, anyway. Next thing I'm going to do is instruct
11 you on the law. You will be allowed to keep these jury
12 instructions with you, so you don't necessarily need to
13 take any notes, unless we find a typo or something. But
14 i would ask that you read along with me as I go through
15 them.
16 All right. So everybody has a copy. He did that
17 pretty adeptly. I was trying to follow.
18 All right. As I say, I'd ask that you read along
19 with me as I go through them so that I can be certain
20 that everyone's been through them in their entirety on at
21 least one occasion.
22 Members of the jury,I thank you for your attention
23 during this trial. Please pay attention to the
24 instructions I am about to give you.
25 Denise williams, the defendant in this case, has 705 1 been accused of the crimes of conspiracy to commit
2 first -degree murder, first -degree murder and accessory
3 after the fact of first -degree murder.
4 Count 1, conspiracy to commit first -degree murder.
5 To prove that crime the State must prove the following
6 two elements beyond a reasonable doubt:
7 1. The intent of Denise Williams was that the
8 offense of first -degree murder would be committed.
9 2. In order to carry out the intent Denise Williams
10 agreed, conspired, combined and confederated with
11 another person, Brian Winchester, to cause first -degree
12 murder to be committed either by them or one of them or
13 by some other person.
14 It is not necessary that the agreement, conspiracy,
15 combination or confederation to commit first -degree
16 murder be expressed in any particular words or that words
17 pass between the conspirators.
18 it is not necessary that the defendant do any act in
19 furtherance of the offense conspired.
20 First -degree murder will be fully defined for you
21 below under Count 2. And I'm not going to repeat it
22 twi ce.
23 It is a defense to the charge of criminal conspiracy
24 that Denise Williams, after conspiring with one or more
25 persons to commit a murder, persuaded Brian Winchester 706 1 not to do so or otherwise prevented commission of the
2 murder under circumstances indicating the complete and
3 voluntary renunciation of her criminal purpose.
4 Renunciation is not complete and voluntary where the
5 crime that was conspired to was not completed because of
6 unanticipated difficulties, unexpected resistance, a
7 decision to postpone the crime to another time or
8 circumstances known by the defendant that increase the
9 probability of being apprehended.
10 If you find that the defendant proved by a
11 preponderance of the evidence that she persuaded Brian
12 Winchester not to commit the murder, or otherwise
13 prevented the commission of the murder under
14 circumstances indicating a complete and voluntary
15 renunciation of her criminal purpose, you should find her
16 not guilty of conspiracy to commit first -degree murder.
17 If the defendant failed to prove by a preponderance
18 of the evidence that she persuaded Brian Winchester not
19 to commit murder, or that she did not otherwise prevent
20 commission of the murder under circumstances indicating a
21 complete and voluntary renunciation of her criminal
22 purpose, you should find her guilty of conspiracy to
23 commit murder in the first degree, if all the elements of
24 the charge have been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
25 Count 2. In this case Denise Williams is accused in 707 1 Count 2 of first-degree murder. Akilling that is
2 excusable or wascommitted by theuse of justifiable
3 deadly force is lawful
4 If you find Jerry Michael Williams was killed by
5 Denise Williams,you willthen considerthecircumstances
6 surrounding thekilling indeciding ifthekilling was
7 first -degree murder or whether the killing was excusable
8 or resulted from justifiable use of deadly force.
9 The killing of a human being is justifiable homicide
10 and lawful if necessarily done while resisting an attempt
11 to murder or commit a felony upon the defendant; or to
12 commit a felony in any dwelling house in which the
13 defendant was at the time of the killing.
14 Thekillingof a humanbeingis excusable,and
15 thereforelawful,under anyone ofthe followingthree
16 circumstances:
17 When the killing is committed by accident and
18 misfortune in doing any lawful act by lawful means with
19 usual ordinary caution andwithout anyunlawful intent;
20 or when the killing occursby accidentand misfortune in
21 the heat of passion upon any sudden and sufficient
22 provocation; or when the killing is committed by accident
23 and misfortune resulting from a sudden combat, if a
24 dangerous weapon is not used and the killing is not done
25 in a cruel or unusual manner. 708 1 "Dangerous weapon" is any weapon that, taking into
2 account the manner in which it is used, is likely to
3 produce death or great bodily harm.
4 i now instruct you on the circumstances that must be
5 proved before Denise williams may be found guilty of
6 murder in the fi rst degree.
7 To prove the crime of first -degree premeditated
8 murder the State must prove the following three elements
9 beyond a reasonable doubt:
10 1. Jerry Michael Williams is dead.
11 2. The death was caused by the criminal act of
12 Denise Williams.
13 3. There was a premeditated killing of Jerry
14 Michael williams.
15 An 'Tact" includes a series of related actions
16 arising from and performed pursuant to a single design or
17 purpose.
18 "Killing with premeditation" is killing after
19 consciously deciding to do so. The decision must be
20 present in the mind at the time of the killing.
21 The law does not fix the exact period of time that
22 must pass between the formation of the premeditated
23 intent to kill and the killing. The period of time must
24 be long enough to allow reflection by the defendant. The
25 premeditated intent to kill must be formed before the 709 1 killing.
2 The question of premeditation is a question of fact
3 to be determined by you from the evidence. It will be
4 sufficient proof of premeditation if the circumstances of
5 the killing and the conduct of the accused convince you
6 beyond a reasonable doubt of the existence of
7 premeditation at the time of the killing.
8 If the defendant helped another person or persons
9 commit the crime of first -degree murder, the defendant is
10 a principal and must be treated as if she had done all
11 the things the other person or persons did if:
12 1. The defendant had a conscious intent that the
13 criminal act be done.
14 2. The defendant did some act or said some word
15 which was intended to and which did incite, cause,
16 encourage, assist or advise the other person or persons
17 to actually commit the crime.
18 To be a principal the defendant does not have to be
19 present when the crime is committed.
20 If you find that the crime alleged was committed, an
21 issue in this case is whether the crime of murder in the
22 first degree was an independent act of a person other
23 than the defendant.
24 An 'Tindependent act" occurs when a person other than
25 the defendant commits or attempts to commit a crime which 710 1 the defendant did not intend to occur, and in which the
2 defendant did not participate; and which was outside of
3 and not a reasonably foreseeable consequence of the
4 common design or unlawful act contemplated by the
5 defendant.
6 If you find the defendant was not present when the
7 crime of murder in the first degree occurred, that, in
8 and of itself, does not establish that the murder in the
9 first degree was an independent act of another.
10 If you find that the murder in the first degree was
11 an independent act of Brian winchester, then you should
12 find Denise Williams not guilty of the crime of murder in
13 the first degree.
14 Count 3. TO prove the crime of accessory after the
15 fact in Count 3 the State must prove the following four
16 elements beyond a reasonable doubt:
17 1. A first -degree murder was committed by Brian
18 Winchester.
19 2. After the first -degree murder was committed
20 Denise Williams maintained, assisted, aided or attempted
21 to aid Brian Winchester.
22 3. At that time, Denise Williams knew that Brian
23 Winchester had committed the first -degree murder.
24 4. Denise Williams did so with the intent that Brian
25 Winchester avoid or escape detection, arrest, trial or 711 1 puni shment.
2 it is not necessary for the State to prove that
3 Denise williams' assistance was successful in allowing
4 Brian winchester to avoid or escape detection, arrest,
5 trial or punishment, nor is it necessary for the State to
6 prove that Brian Winchester was convicted.
7 The intent with which an act is done is an operation
8 of the mind and, therefore, is not always capable of
9 direct and positive proof. It may be established by
10 circumstantial evidence like any other fact in a case.
11 First -degree murder has been fully defined above
12 under Count 2.
13 The defendant has entered a plea of not guilty.
14 That means you must presume or believe the defendant is
15 innocent. The presumption stays with defendant as to
16 each material allegation in the indictment, through each
17 stage of the trial unless it has been overcome by the
18 evidence to the exclusion of and beyond a reasonable
19 doubt.
20 To overcome the defendant's presumption of innocence
21 the State has the burden of proving the crime with which
22 the defendant is charged was committed. And the
23 defendant is the person who committed the crime.
24 The defendant is not required to present evidence or
25 prove anything. 712 1 whenever the words reasonable doubt are used you
2 must consider the following: A reasonable doubt is not a
3 mere possible doubt, a speculative, imaginary or forced
4 doubt. Such a doubt must not influence you to return a
5 verdict of not guilty if you have an abiding conviction
6 of guilt.
7 On the other hand, if after carefully considering,
8 comparing and weighing all the evidence there is not an
9 abiding conviction of guilt, or if having a conviction it
10 is one which is not stable but one which wavers and
11 vacillates, then the charge is not proved beyond every
12 reasonable doubt and you must find the defendant not
13 guilty because the doubt is reasonable.
14 It is to evidence introduced in this trial and to it
15 alone that you are to look for that proof. A reasonable
16 doubt as to the guilt of the defendant may arise from the
17 evidence, conflict in the evidence, or the lack of
18 evidence. if you have a reasonable doubt, you should
19 find the defendant not guilty. If you have no reasonable
20 doubt, you should find the defendant guilty.
21 It is up to you to decide what evidence is reliable.
22 You should use your common sense in deciding which is the
23 best evidence and which evidence should not be relied
24 upon in considering your verdict. You may find some of
25 the evidence not reliable or less reliable than other 713 1 evidence.
2 You should consider how the witnesses acted, as well
3 as what they said. Some things you should consider are:
4 Did the witness seem to have an opportunity to see
5 and know the things about which the witness testified?
6 Did the witness seem to have an accurate memory?
7 was the witness honest and straightforward in
8 answering the attorneys' questions?
9 Did the witness have some interest in how the case
10 should be decided?
11 Does the witness's testimony agree with the other
12 testimony and the other evidence in the case?
13 Has the witness been offered or received any money,
14 preferred treatment or other benefit in order to get the
15 witness to testify?
16 Did the witness at some other time make a statement
17 that is inconsistent with the testimony he or she gave in
18 court?
19 Has the witness been convicted of a felony or
20 misdemeanor involving dishonesty or false statement?
21 whether the State has met its burden of proof does
22 not depend upon the number of witnesses it has called or
23 upon the number of exhibits it has offered, but instead
24 upon the nature and quality of the evidence presented.
25 The fact that a witness is employed in law 714 1 enforcement does not mean that his or her testimony
2 deserves more or less consideration than that of any
3 other witness.
4 Expert witnesses are like other witnesses with one
5 exception. The law permits an expert witness to give his
6 or her opinion. However, an expertTs opinion is reliable
7 only when given on a subject about which you believe her
8 to be an expert. Like other witnesses, you may believe
9 or disbelieve all or any part of an expert's testimony.
10 You must consider the testimony of some witnesses
11 with more caution than others. For example, a witness
12 who claims to have helped the defendant commit a crime,
13 who has been promised immunity from prosecution or who
14 hopes to gain more favorable treatment in his or her own
15 case may have a reason to make a false statement in order
16 to strike a good bargain with the State.
17 This is particularly true when there is no other
18 evidence tending to agree with what the witness says
19 about the defendant. So while a witness of that kind may
20 be entirely truthful when testifying, you should consider
21 his or her testimony with more caution than the testimony
22 of other witnesses.
23 However, if the testimony of such a witness
24 convinces you beyond a reasonable doubt of the
25 defendant's guilt or the other evidence in the case does 715 1 so, then you should find the defendant guilty.
2 It is entirely proper for a lawyer to talk to a
3 witness about what testimony the witness would give if
4 called to the courtroom. The witness should not be
5 discredited by talking to a lawyer about his or her
6 testimony.
7 You may rely upon your own conclusion about the
8 credibility of any witness. A juror may believe or
9 disbelieve all or any part of the evidence or the
10 testimony of any witness.
11 The Constitution requires the State to prove its
12 accusations against the defendant. It is not necessary
13 for the defendant to disprove anything, nor is the
14 defendant required to prove her innocence. It is up to
15 the State to prove the defendant's guilt by evidence.
16 The defendant exercised a fundamental right by
17 choosing not to be a witness in this case. You must not
18 view this as an admission of guilt or be influenced in
19 any way by her decision. No juror should ever be
20 concerned that the defendant did or did not take the
21 witness stand to give testimony in the case.
22 These are some general rules that apply to your
23 discussion. You must follow these rules in order to
24 return a lawful verdict:
25 You must follow the law as it is set out in these 716 1 instructions. If you fail to follow the law, your
2 verdict will be a miscarriage of justice. There is no
3 reason for failing to follow the law in this case. All
4 of us are depending upon you to make a wise and legal
5 decision in this matter.
6 This case must be decided only upon the evidence
7 that you have heard from the testimony of the witnesses
8 and have seen in the form of the exhibits in evidence and
9 these instructions.
10 This case must not be decided for or against anyone
11 because you feel sorry for anyone or are angry at anyone.
12 Remember, the lawyers are not on trial. Your
13 feelings about them should not influence your decision in
14 this case.
15 Your duty is to determine if the defendant has been
16 proven guilty or not in accord with the law. It's my job
17 to determine a proper sentence if the defendant is found
18 guilty.
19 whatever verdict you render must be unanimous. That
20 is, each juror must agree to the same verdict.
21 The jury is not to discuss any question that a juror
22 wrote that was not asked by the Court and must not hold
23 that against either party.
24 Your verdict should not be influenced by feelings of
25 prejudice, bias or sympathy. Your verdict must be based 717 1 on the evidence and on the law contained in these
2 instructions.
3 Deciding a verdict is exclusively your job. I can
4 not participate in that decision in any way. Please
5 disregard anything I may have said or done that made you
6 think I preferred one verdict over another.
7 A separate crime is charged in each count of the
8 indictment. And although they have been tried together,
9 each crime and the evidence applicable to it must be
10 considered separately and a separate verdict returned as
11 to each. A finding of guilty or not guilty as to one
12 crime must not affect your verdict as to the other crimes
13 charged.
14 you may find the defendant guilty as charged in the
15 indictment or not guilty.
16 The verdict must be unanimous, that is, all of you
17 must agree to the same verdict. only one verdict may be
18 returned as to each crime charged. The verdict must be
19 in writing, and for convenience the necessary verdict
20 form has been prepared for you.
21 All right. Let's look at the verdict form with me,
22 please. I think it's pretty self-explanatory. But you
23 have three counts. First you have as to Count 1, you
24 would choose either the defendant is guilty of conspiracy
25 to commit first -degree murder or not guilty. You would 718 1 check the one option you unanimously agree upon.
2 Same as to Count 2, either guilty of first -degree
3 murder or not guilty. Again, you would check the option
4 you unanimously agree upon.
5 Same as to Count 3, either guilty of accessory after
6 the fact of first -degree murder or not guilty.
7 So, when you get through you should have three check
8 marks on your verdict form. It will be dated and signed
9 be the foreperson. The foreperson will bring the verdict
10 form back to the courtroom with them after you've
11 completed your deliberations.
12 Sometimes I get a question from the jury whether
13 everybody has to sign the verdict form. No, just the
14 foreperson signs on behalf of the jury. I'll go over the
15 concluding remarks after the attorneys have made their
16 closing arguments.
17 The attorneys now will present their final
18 arguments. Please remember that what the attorneys say
19 is not evidence or your instructions on the law.
20 However, do listen closely to their arguments, they are
21 intended to aid you in understanding the case.
22 Each side will have equal time. But the State is
23 entitled to divide this time between an opening argument
24 and a rebuttal argument after the defendant has spoken.
25 Mr. Fuchs. 719 1 MR. FUCHS: Thank you, Your Honor.
2 Good morning again.
3 THE PANEL: Good morning.
4 MR. FUCHS: I'd like to thank you once again. I
5 know i previously thanked you for being potential jurors,
6 and the fact that you are, in fact, jurors. And now I'd
7 like to take the opportunity to thank you again for doing
8 exactly what it is that we knew you would do.
9 You were selected because myself and other counsel
10 felt that you were the best that there was in order to
11 sit there and listen throughout the course of this trial,
12 and pay attention to everything going on in the
13 courtroom. I know I pay attention. I know the Judge
14 pays attention. I know they do.
15 And you've done exactly as it is that we thought you
16 would do, and you paid attention throughout all the
17 testimony, as well as everything else going on in the
18 course of this trial. And thank you very much. Once
19 again, we literally cannot do this without you. You are
20 a vital part of the criminal justice system.
21 That being said. Closing arguments. As the Judge
22 says,I get to talk to you twice. I talk to you the
23 first time. And then Mr. way will come up and speak with
24 you -- or Mr. Padovano -- and I will come back and get to
25 address you one last time. 720 1 The way I like to structure this a little bit, just
2 to give you a little bit of guideline, is I want to go
3 over the elements of the crime in the jury instructions
4 as the Judge just read to you. Okay.
5 So let's start off with what we know. we know that
6 on December 16, 2000, Jerry Michael Williams, Mike
7 Williams, was murdered. It was initially classified as a
8 missing person case. It was a shoddy homicide
9 investigation because it was not a homicide
10 investigation.
11 But we know now that man murdered him. Brian
12 Winchester. We know that everybody involved here are
13 long-time friends; Brian, Denise, Cathy Thomas, Mike.
14 All long-time friends. Went to North Florida Christian
15 School together. Went to Florida High -- I mean, went to
16 Florida State university together.
17 This started out as a homicide -- a missing person
18 case. Ended up being a homicide investigation. Brian
19 Winchester killed Mike Williams. Brian Winchester was in
20 love with Denise Williams for a long time. We know that
21 Brian and Denise actually got married on December 3rd of
22 2015, thirteen days from the anniversary, the fifth
23 anniversary, of the murder.
24 we know at the time that he died that Mike Williams
25 had multiple life insurance policies $250,000, $500,000 721 1 and $1,000,000. All of which Denise williams was the
2 sole beneficiary of. we know that final one, that
3 $1 million policy, was drafted by Brian winchester the
4 summer before he murdered Mike williams. That's what we
5 know. That's what we knew coming in here.
6 The question you have is, how does she fit into the
7 picture? How does she fit into the murder, the
8 conspiracy for murder and helping him after the murder?
9 As I said,I go through the elements. I'm going to
10 start off on the back side because I think it puts
11 everything in a little bit more perspective.
12 Accessory after the fact. The elements, the Judge
13 has read to you that a murder was committed by Brian
14 winchester. NO question. After the murder was
15 committed, Denise Williams maintained, assisted, aided or
16 attempt to aid him. And at the time she knew he had done
17 it. And she did so with the intent for him to avoid
18 arrest, trial or punishment.
19 Remember Dr. Mnookin. very brief witness, but a
20 very important one. Because one of the things the
21 defense has alluded to during opening statements is that
22 this -- and, of course, they're probably going to here
23 shortly -- was that this was all something that Brian
24 winchester did and came up with to get revenge on Denise
25 for turning him in. Dr. Mnookin says otherwise. 722 1 Brian winchester goes and talks to Dr. Mnookin prior
2 to the arrest. And what does he tell him? He says, I'm
3 worried that Denise is going to go to law enforcement and
4 that she's going to tell them about a murder that
5 happened and what she knows from many years ago. The
6 murder of Mike Williams. Prior to the arrest.
7 Elements of accessory after the fact. After the
8 arrest, within the week, within the week of Denise going
9 and talking to law enforcement and being interviewed by
10 Florida Department of Law Enforcement and talked to about
11 the murder of Mike williams, she calls her good friend
12 Cathy Thomas and says, Tell Marcus to tell Brian I didn't
13 say anything. Marcus, if you don't remember, is Brian's
14 dad.
15 Cathy Thomas came. She testified to you and told
16 you that's what happened. But you don't have to take her
17 word for it.
18 (Audio playing.)
19 MS. THOMAS: well, I mean, I know that you know
20 something, Denise. Because whenever I was going out to
21 see Marcus you're like, tell Marcus to tell Brian I'm not
22 talking.
23 MS. WILLIAMS: Yeah.
24 MS. THOMAS: And I knew what that meant.
25 (Audio stopped.) 723 1 MR. FUCHS: So we know that she has knowledge of the
2 homicide because Brian has told Dr. Mnookin already. And
3 now she's sending a message to Brian to say -- let him
4 know that she didn't say anything.
5 And you go back and you think about Brian
6 winchester's testimony. And they had a pact, an
7 agreement, that nobody would say anything to another
8 person. Nobody would say anything to law enforcement.
9 And that's what she was saying. She was continuing that
10 pact, and letting him know that she didn't say anything
11 to law enforcement on that day. And she takes it one
12 step further and she makes sure that she knows -- he
13 knows this. So that way he doesn't then turn around and
14 confess and dime her out, in accord with the agreement
15 they had.
16 That right there, ladies and gentlemen, meets all
17 the elements of accessory after the fact. Knew the
18 murder was committed; aided, maintained, assisted,
19 abetted, attempt to aid him, knew he had done it. And
20 was the intent to avoid arrest, trial or punishment?
21 Accessory after the fact, all the elements have been
22 proven by the State.
23 So let's turn to the elements of conspiracy. Now,
24 the reason I went with the accessory after the fact first
25 is because of that statement. Because of the statements 724 1 of Dr. Mnookin. Because now, with the conspiracy, a lot
2 of this you're going to have to rely upon Brian
3 winchester's testimony. No question about it. But when
4 you're relying on Brian winchester's testimony, take it
5 in light of the fact of what you heard from Dr. Mnookin,
6 from Cathy Thomas. And as the jury instruction tells
7 you, does the testimony -- one of the things you have to
8 do when weighing the evidence is figure out whether the
9 testimony of a witness, no matter who it is, does it
10 comport with the other evidence and other testimony from
11 other witnesses?
12 So when you have Cathy Thomas, Dr. Mnookin telling
13 you what they told you, it changes things a little bit
14 when you're paying attention to Brian's testimony. It
15 puts it in more context.
16 when you go back and you listen and you think about
17 the elements of conspiracy. Denise Williams intended
18 that Mike Williams be killed. In order to do so she
19 agreed with or conspired with Brian Winchester to kill
20 Mike williams. it is a defense if she decided not to
21 carry out the homicide by persuading and not stopping it.
22 But it is not complete and voluntary when a crime wasn't
23 committed because of an unanticipated difficulty or
24 decision to postpone the crime to another time.
25 As I said, this all relies upon Brian Winchester's 725 1 testimony. And you have to do that evaluation we just
2 talked about.
3 So let's talk about Brian winchester's testimony.
4 Brian winchester tells you this affair actually started
5 three years prior, in 1997, at a concert in Floyd's off
6 Tennessee Street. Been going on for three years. Well,
7 let's take a look at how the other elements and other
8 testimony, how that stacks up.
9 Lindsey Lockhart, a different concert, but another
10 concert at Floyd's Music Hall. She's there with her
11 friends. And, actually, Brian -- I mean, Mike's there as
12 well. And she sees Brian Winchester and Denise acting in
13 a manner that is not just friendly. It's above friendly.
14 AS if they were dating. Arms around each other, Brian
15 standing behind her. Three years prior to Mike's death,
16 just like Brian said.
17 Angela Stafford, there at the concert as well, sees
18 the same thing. Three years prior to Mike's death. She
19 even a little bit farther. She's there when Denise is
20 seven months pregnant, two years prior to Mike's death.
21 And her and Brian are flirting or whatever, hanging out
22 and go out drinking. And what happens? Denise changes
23 the way she's acting towards her. Is it something
24 glaring? No. Keep in mind, affairs are secretive by
25 nature. Conspiracies are secretive by nature. But she 726 1 changes the way she's acting towards her. why? Maybe a
2 1-ittle jealous that Ms. Stafford was able to go out and
3 have drinks with him and she wasn't.
4 Cathy Thomas; found movie ticket where they had gone
5 out together, found the "Meridian" necklace, had
6 suspicions of them dating. The recording, she always
7 knew that they were in love with each other.
8 You've got the tickets that Brian kept as momentos.
9 Now, keep in mind that what he says is, yes, this affair
10 started three years prior. But also, even after Mike's
11 death they maintained secrecy until about 2003, 2004.
12 One of those tickets from 1998. More from 2001, 2002,
13 before they came out. They were kept because those are
14 things that they did together and dates they went on to
15 concerts.
16 The letter from Denise. The question about whether
17 or not Brian tried to get back together with Cathy.
18 There's a letter from Denise of that time period, in
19 which you heard a portion of it. You have it in evidence
20 if you want to take a look at it.
21 But in that she talks about her love and she
22 professes her love for him. How she's going to miss him.
23 That didn't happen over night. Keep in mind, he's still
24 married to Cathy at that time. That letter confirms that
25 this is an ongoing relationship between Brian Winchester 727 1 and Denise williams. It's from her handwriting and it's
2 in her name, signed, Love you. At one point she says, I
3 love you more than ever. You don't love someone more
4 than ever if you didn't love them before.
5 And then, finally, the truck at the church. Joanie
6 Chase, Tallahassee police officer. Nobody really thinks
7 anything of it at the time. obviously, it takes a
8 different light in this situation. But remember what
9 Brian Winchester said, he would park at different
10 churches. One of which was a Grace Lutheran Church off
11 of Miccosukee and Capital Circle. Right across from the
12 CVS area. Kind of over there by the dealerships.
13 Sergeant Joanie Chase on patrol back in 1999, the
14 year before Brian [sic] goes missing and dead, killed.
15 She comes across a larger SUV. And she makes a phone
16 call. Does the run, DMV. unfortunately, those are all
17 purged. But she remembers making a phone call to the
18 wife of the owners. usually you own a car, wife,
19 husband. And she remembers having that conversation.
20 Cathy Thomas, Brian winchester's wife, remembers
21 that conversation. Remembers Joanie Chase saying --
22 describing the bumper stickers. But that wasn't supposed
23 to be there because Brian was supposed to be hunting.
24 But he wasn't. Because he was there and done something
25 with Denise. Just like he said. Just like Brian told 728 1 you.
2 we talked about this in openings and in jury
3 selection. You are here because you are to use your
4 common sense, experience, education, life skills. And
5 you use those tools throughout the course of your
6 evaluation of all the situation here. Remember, affairs
7 and conspiracies are secretive by their very nature. And
8 they were good at it. They kept the secret of his murder
9 for 17 years. Twenty-one, including the affair
10 beforehand. Eighteen years now.
11 So now we turn to what Brian winchester's testimony
12 is about the actual conspiracy. Again, keep it in mind
13 about the previous accessory aspect; Dr. Mnookin's
14 testimony; Cathy Thomas's testimony; all the things we
15 just went over that corroborated all the other things
16 that Brian Winchester said. And that's the light in
17 which you should look at his testimony regarding the
18 conspi racy.
19 what did he tell you? Over a year they discussed
20 it. That insurance was a motive, but it wasn't the sole
21 motive. It was to be together, as far as he was
22 concerned. The plan evolved over the time period.
23 At one point there was a conversation about whether
24 they were going to kill both Cathy and Mike. A boating
25 accident offshore where Denise and Brian were going to be 729 1 clinging to a buoy. And Mike and -- Mike and Cathy are
2 dead.
3 He tells you that she has major concerns, given her
4 upbringing, with being a divorcee. Didn't want to be a
5 divorcee. was concerned about custody of her child.
6 Didn't want to share custody of her child. Balancing act
7 between a divorcee or a widow. A widow with
8 $1.75 million, the sympathy of the community because your
9 husband is missing in a hunting accident. A lot better
10 than a divorcee.
11 And what did he tell you about the murder itself?
12 Again, Brian Winchester's testimony corroborated. The
13 waders. The plan was to get him onto a boat, push him
14 over so he would drown in the waders. because of the
15 myth that if you go into the water with the waders,
16 you're going to, in fact, drown. You can't escape. They
17 drag you down.
18 But the plan was to take him out onto Lake Seminole
19 to the secret honey hole. But he had to put his waders
20 on before he gets into the boat. And they head out. And
21 he knows the depths in that area aren't real deep. So
22 he's got to go to this particular 12 -foot hole. Alton
23 Renew told you about this 12 -foot hole and the search,
24 and all the things -- and how everything is focused
25 around that one particular area. And when he gets to 730 1 that area, he pushes him over.
2 And somehow he's able to get out of those waders.
3 And we know that's corroborated because Joe Sheffield,
4 who's the man that found the waders six months later, he
5 says whenever he found the waders they were pulled half
6 way down, inside out, down to the waist area.
7 Howard Drew came in and said that,I taught him how
8 to get out of those waders. we practiced it in the pooi.
9 And the first thing you do is, you get those straps off
10 and you peel them down. And those waders were found in
11 that 12 -foot hole. Again, what he's telling you is
12 corroborated.
13 So you shot him. And I'm not going to go into the
14 details of how he shot him, because it was brutal . Brian
15 Winchester is not a good person. He's a murderer, just
16 like he told you. But that doesn't mean his testimony
17 isn't accurate. And we know -- and it's corroborated
18 that he was, in fact, shot because he told us where the
19 body is. we were able to recover the body. And we found
20 the body. And he was, in fact, shot in the face, just
21 like Brian Winchester told you.
22 Brian Winchester told you about the murder, that he
23 pulled the shirt over his head because he didn't want to
24 have to look at his friend's face. Again, that's how the
25 body was found. You saw the medical examiner's 731 1 photographs about that and her description of that.
2 Again, it's corroborated. And then he buried him. And
3 he took him and he buried him at Carr Lake.
4 Following his confession to law enforcement, he took
5 them to Carr Lake and showed them where he was buried.
6 And that's where he was found. Again, Brian Winchester's
7 statements are corroborated.
8 So what did he tell you? Three-year affair,
9 corroborated. The murder itself, corroborated. what
10 does it say about the other parts? certainly when you're
11 balancing weighing the evidence. If he's not lying about
12 that, it's corroborated, what does it say about the rest
13 of his testimony?
14 But then you go one step farther, the motive.
15 Follow the money. That's what Investigator Sparkman
16 says. Homicide investigation you look to the spouse,
17 follow the money. One -million dollars, $500,000,
18 $250,000; 1.75 million dollars that she is the
19 beneficiary of. Not Brian Winchester. She is. And when
20 you add all that up, each and every element of that
21 conspiracy has been met.
22 So now let's talk about the murder itself. How is
23 she guilty of the murder? Mike Williams is dead. The
24 death was caused by a criminal act. No question about
25 it. Premeditation, no question about it. Definition, 732 1 you've already got it. Killing with premeditation
2 basically means you actually thought about it beforehand.
3 Sometimes it can be instantaneous.
4 we know that's not here because this was a long,
5 thought-out process; get him into the waders, push him
6 overboard. All the plans that went into this particular
7 thing. No question, Mike Williams is killed after Brian
8 Winchester decided to do so. No question he made it well
9 before actually doing so.
10 So how does, again, Denise Williams figure into
11 this? That's where the principal comes into play. If
12 the defendant helped another person or persons commit the
13 crime of first -degree murder, the defendant is a
14 principal and must be treated as if she had done all the
15 things the other person did if she had a conscious intent
16 that the crime be done.
17 Again, Brian Winchester tells you all the stuff that
18 he told you regarding what it is that they conspired to
19 do beforehand. Did she have a conscious intent that he
20 go on that hunting trip and die and never come home
21 again? And the answer, of course, is yes. Did she do an
22 act, word or other thing that encouraged, assisted Brian
23 to commit the crime? Absolutely.
24 To be a principal the defendant does not have to be
25 present when the crime was committed. That's the law. 733 1 She is, in fact, a principal. And when you add it up,
2 when you add the conspiracy for murder, and you have the
3 murder that is actually committed, and you have a
4 principal to that murder, that equals murder.
5 And in the end, when you evaluate all that evidence
6 and you evaluate the corroborated testimony of Brian
7 Winchester and what Denise Williams's involvement is in
8 all of this, and you evaluate the recorded statement, the
9 testimony of Dr. Mnookin, the testimony of all the people
10 that corroborated, once again, Brian Winchester's
11 statement; and when you take it all into account, I am
12 confident that you will, in fact, find her guilty of
13 conspiracy to commit murder, first -degree murder and
14 accessory after the fact. Thank you.
15 THE COURT: why don't we take 15 minutes. Let the
16 jury step out.
17 (Jury exits.)
18 (A recess was had.)
19 THE COURT: Let's have the jury, please.
20 (Jury enters the courtroom.)
21 THE COURT: All right. Everybody be seated, please.
22 Mr. Way, you may proceed.
23 MR. WAY: Thank you, Your Honor.
24 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
25 THE PANEL: Good morning. 734 1 MR. WAY: I talked to you directly one time before
2 on Monday. This is going to be my last chance to talk
3 with you. You may note that I will probably try to slow
4 down a little bit. Because I have been instructed by the
5 court reporter that I was speaking at 330 words a minute
6 yesterday, which was about a hundred over what she's
7 rated for. So I need to try to pace myself a little bit.
8 So if it sounds like I'm slowing down on purpose, I'm
9 trying to help the court reporter out today.
10 Mr. Padovano and I and my team thank you for your
11 careful attention to this case. No one thanks you more
12 for your attention to this case than Denise Williams.
13 I'm going to talk to you in my closing argument
14 about five distinct areas. I can't do Power Point
15 presentations. I will probably, at some point, try to
16 put something here and it will be upside down and you
17 won't be able to read it. So I'm going to try to talk to
18 you and I'm going to trust in your memories and in your
19 note taking, and in what you've heard over the last three
20 days of evidence. But, also, what you have not heard
21 over the last three days in evidence.
22 The first thing I want to start with is just to
23 remind you of something you already know. Something that
24 you would recognize based on the instructions that Judge
25 Hankinson has provided. This is not -- this is not a 735 1 case about feeling sorry for anyone. This is not a case
2 about trying to get, quote, Justice for Mike. This is
3 not a case about concerts. This is not a case about
4 suspicions. It's not a case about guesses. It's not a
5 case about trips. It's not a guess [sic] about pictures.
6 It's not a guess about how you feel about Denise
7 williams. It's not a case about how you feel about
8 Cheryl Williams.
9 It's not a case about how people mourn. It's not a
10 case about how people grieve. It is not a case about
11 whether people smile. It is not a case about whether
12 people sit there and stare. This is a murder case.
13 I believe it would be helpful for you to consider
14 the following: when evaluating all of the evidence or the
15 lack of evidence that has been produced by the State of
16 Florida in this case, please try for a moment, as an
17 exercise, to remove from what you've heard any taint of
18 Brian Winchester. Take the evidence that has been
19 presented to you and take Brian Winchester out of it.
20 If you take Brian Winchester out of the things that
21 have been shown to you, you have nothing. That has been
22 confirmed, ladies and gentlemen, by the Florida
23 Department of Law Enforcement agents. You recall Agent
24 Devaney on Tuesday testified that there is no
25 corroborating evidence. There was no physical evidence. 736 1 There is no tangible evidence that implicates Denise
2 williams in the murder of Mike Williams.
3 That this case began and was investigated over
4 numerous years by numerous agencies. Let's talk about
5 the agencies and the timing. Because this is a long
6 time. Mike Williams was murdered by Brian Winchester at
7 the end of the Clinton Administration.
8 Into the early part of the Bush Administration in
9 2002, the evidence shows that law enforcement had already
10 sent an inquiry to Kansas City Life. it's 2002. There's
11 a followup in 2004 to the same insurance company. Which,
12 by the way, paid the premium -- paid the policy.
13 Because, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, that's what
14 life insurance does. Life insurance pays out. ou heard
15 that representative of Kansas City Life testify that they
16 did their investigation. They paid the policy.
17 The insurance, I want to call it a red herring. And
18 Mr. Fuchs has a picture of the insurance with some
19 red stuff on what looks like money. It's not even a red
20 herring. It's not even really anything.
21 Mike Williams was insured. Mike Williams passed
22 away. The insurance paid out. One thing the State
23 didn't tell you in their model or in their movie, so to
24 speak, is, based on what Investigator Sparkman said --
25 the one thing we know, of course, is that the Government 737 1 always thinks it's the spouse. But the State said,
2 follow the money. well, ladies and gentlemen of the
3 jury, where did that -- where did they follow the money
4 to? Did they present any evidence to you where the money
5 went? where the money is now. How the money was spent.
6 No, they didn't. Because it's a throw -away line. It's a
7 throw away. The policy is a throw away. And I'm going
8 to tell you why that is.
9 But true law enforcement does follow the money. But
10 in this case, they didn't. They didn't have to. And
11 I'll tell you why a little bit later. But it is clear
12 that the spouse is always the suspect.
13 But going back, if you take out Brian Winchester,
14 what do you have? ou have a couple of concert tickets
15 to some marginal bands. Maybe they were in '98. Maybe
16 they were in 2000. Maybe they were in 2001. You have
17 some tickets.
18 You have testimony that in 1998 Angela Stafford went
19 out with Brian Winchester after Denise's baby shower.
20 And the next morning Denise Williams gave her a dirty
21 look. Maybe she gave her a dirty look because Brian
22 Winchester was married to Cathy Winchester at the time.
23 Maybe, being best friends, Denise Williams took a dim
24 view of Brian Winchester going out with another woman.
25 It doesn't corroborate anything. Two people went out in 738 1
2 you have testimony of a truck parked at a church.
3 But without Brian winchester, what is that? That wasn't
4 Denise williams' truck. It was Brian's truck. And we
5 already know, in 1999, that's after Brian had already
6 started fooling around with Ms. Stafford, we heard that
7 testimony from her own mouth. And we also heard the
8 testimony of, where did Ms. Stafford stay sometimes when
9 she was in town? Sometimes she stayed with
10 Ms. Winchester and Mr. Winchester [sic] at Centennial
11 Oaks.
12 So there was a car there. That doesn't prove
13 anything. It's just another piece of something. Then we
14 have some suspicions and we have some guesses. But
15 without Brian Winchester, none of that amounts to
16 anything.
17 And we know from the evidence and from the testimony
18 by law enforcement, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, it
19 did not amount to anything. It did not amount to an
20 arrest. All of the things that have been presented to
21 you by the State Attorney to suggest corroboration,
22 standing on their own, do not prove anything. They never
23 have. They never did. And they never will.
24 All of these pictures that you may see of boat
25 landings and of duck waders, and of all of these other 739 1 things have that always existed, since 2000, do not
2 independently prove anything about Denise williams. You
3 take Brian winchester away, there is nothing about any of
4 this evidence or any of this testimony that supports any
5 of the three charges against Denise Williams.
6 Now, the Judge has given you a copy of the
7 instructions. And you've listened to the Judge and
8 you've read through the instructions. And I suspect,
9 ladies and gentlemen of the jury, that when you retire to
10 deliberate, you will look back through the instructions.
11 And I'm obligated to just point a few things out
12 about the instructions. You have to prove that all of
13 the elements -- or you have to show that all of the
14 element have been proven. Mr. Fuchs went in reverse in
15 his presentation and talked about accessory after the
16 fact. You have to look at that. You have to look at
17 what evidence there is that suggests that.
18 Now, in a minute when I talk about Brian Winchester
19 I'm going to talk about that evidence -- accessory after
20 the fact, because Mr. Fuchs says it is a phone call from
21 Cathy Thomas, that communication that is the evidence of
22 the accessory.
23 To be clear, before we get into Brian Winchester,
24 there is nothing before he gets involved in this case and
25 in this picture that substantiates any allegations 740 1 against Denise williams and doesn't do anything other
2 than suspicions. without Brian Winchester, I would sit
3 down, you would go back, you would come back, it would be
4 not guilty. There would be no reason to be here. It
5 would stop.
6 Mike Williams was killed December 16, 2000. Law
7 enforcement got involved. Law enforcement tried things.
8 Law enforcement couldn't find anything. Nothing
9 happened.
10 August 5,2016, over 15 years later, Denise Williams
11 was going through the divorce. A divorce. Did not
12 appear to have any philosophical, religious or moral
13 objections to divorce against Mr. Winchester. In fact,
14 the testimony suggests that she had been separated from
15 him since 2012 and had actually filed for divorce in
16 2015. No divorce problem there. No divorce problem at
17 all.
18 It was a bad marriage. Brian Winchester was a bad
19 husband. Mr. Winchester was a controlling husband. He
20 was a controlling man. And he did not like to be told
21 no. He was the type of man who did not like to have
22 someone tell him what to do. Because what was he? He
23 was a financial planner. He sold insurance. He planned
24 and he sold. He planned and he sold. And on August 5,
25 2016, he would have you believe that he simply wanted to 741 1 go and talk to Denise.
2 Now, this testimony from Dr. Mnookin, ladies and
3 gentlemen, shows absolutely nothing. Because you would
4 have to believe the underlying statements that Brian
5 winchester gave to Dr. Mnookin. Dr. Mnookin's testimony
6 is not evidence of anything. It's tainted, like
7 everything else is, by the touch of Brian Winchester.
8 And you heard Dr. Mnookin say to himself, and you
9 can recall your own memory and your own notes, that
10 Dr. Mnookin thought it was a pretty bad idea if you're
11 going to want to go talk to someone, to shove a gun in
12 their ribs.
13 But on August 6th [sic], 2016, Brian Winchester went
14 to Denise williams' home at between 2:00 and 3:00 a.m.
15 because, as he testified, that's when it's darkest. He
16 brought a gun, a backpack. He says a blanket, agent
17 Devaney says a tarp. He crawled into the back of her SUV
18 and he sat there and he waited for hours. Periodically
19 he would take a spray bottle of water and made sure he
20 sprayed the window so she wasn't going to be able to see
21 him when she went to her car.
22 Brian Winchester, at approximately 7:00 a.m. , as
23 Denise williams was coming out of her home on her way to
24 work, crawled over two rows of seats, scared her, put a
25 gun to her ribs and he kidnapped her. He kidnapped her 742 1 with a firearm.
2 He did not crawl over with a couple of concert
3 tickets and ask her if she wanted to go see Sister Hazel.
4 He kidnapped her at gunpoint. It is never disputed that
5 he did the crime because, ladies and gentlemen, he pled
6 to it. He admitted he did it.
7 So he takes her at gunpoint to do God knows what
8 with a gun, with a tarp, with a sheet, with bottles.
9 what was he going to do with her? what was he going to
10 do to her? But she talks him down. She calms him down
11 enough to get him to let her go. This man who supposedly
12 knows the deepest, darkest, most heinous secret, that
13 Denise Williams plotted and planned for the murder of
14 Mike williams.
15 That's what the State has to have you believe,
16 ladies and gentlemen. You have to believe that on August
17 5, 2016 she knew -- she knew she had planned, she had
18 been an accessory. You have to believe that.
19 And if it's true, ladies and gentlemen of the jury,
20 why does Denise Williams go to the police? The man with
21 a secret that could lock her up, she goes to the police.
22 She turns him in. Because he kidnapped her at gunpoint.
23 A reasonable belief that if she ever had any
24 suspicion that Brian winchester had killed Mike, she
25 would have taken him to the police for that. But she 743 1 goes to the police and she has the man who supposedly has
2 this great, deep, dark secret against her, and she goes
3 to tell the police what he did.
4 Now, at this point, while she's at the Leon County
5 Sheriff's Office giving her report, telling them what
6 happened, telling them about the gun, about the tarp,
7 about the blanket, about the threat, about being
8 kidnapped. while she is there telling law enforcement
9 about how she has been victimized, in comes Agent
10 Devaney, FDLE.
11 FDLE, working a case forever, hadn't gotten
12 anywhere. Didn't have anything. Boy, they had some
13 suspicions. why do they have suspicions? Because it's
14 always the spouse. Doesn't take any rocket science or
15 CSI or five hours of Law and Order. It's always the
16 spouse.
17 So he decides he's going to come in and he's going
18 to confront Denise williams. He's going to confront her
19 while she is in the sheriff's office preparing reports
20 and giving evidence related to being kidnapped by Brian
21 winchester.
22 And Agent Devaney is mean to her. He just doesn't
23 treat her well. She's there talking about being
24 kidnapped, he wants to talk about her dead husband. And
25 that's what he wants to do. He just wants to pester her 744 1 and needle her.
2 Denise williams didn't have a hard time talking to
3 law enforcement, ladies and gentlemen, because she went
4 to them. She drove to the sheriff's office. Now, if a
5 woman doesn't want to talk to law enforcement, ladies and
6 gentlemen of the jury, driving to their office is a bad
7 sign and a bad way to go about t. And, remember, she
8 never had a hard time talking to Sergeant Wooten. She's
9 willing to talk to these people, even though, supposedly,
10 Brian Winchester has this the deep, dark secret over her
11 because they planned it together.
12 So into jail Brian Winchester goes. August 5th of
13 2016 was Brian Winchester's last day as a free man. Or
14 was it? August 5,2016, Brian Winchester's last day as a
15 free man. Or was it?
16 The testimony is uncontroverted that he was looking
17 at life in prison. He was facing felony charges. He
18 happened to have the misfortune, or luck, depending on
19 how one looks at it, to have his case assigned to a
20 division presided over by Hangman Hankinson. Looking at
21 life in prison and the judge's colloquial nickname is
22 Hangman.
23 oh, young Mr. Winchester, he's got some issues.
24 He's got some issues. He's not a free man. He's in
25 jail. Denise Williams doesn't want him out of jail. 745 1 She's scared of him. She's terrified of him. He
2 kidnapped her at gunpoint. Threatened her.
3 Young Mr. winchester now is in jail. He doesn't
4 like being there. And as he testified to -- and it's
5 interesting because when he testified on Tuesday there
6 were a lot more tears, tighter performance. Wednesday,
7 nah, not so much tears. But he figured out he needed to
8 use the word we a lot more on wednesday. Didn't get so
9 much we on Tuesday. Got a lot of we on Wednesday.
10 You've got to work to your audience a little bit, is
11 Mr. Winchester's presumption.
12 But what we know is Mr. Winchester is a murderer and
13 a liar. And he's in jail. He doesn't like being in jail
14 and he doesn't want to go to prison. From his own lips,
15 I don't want to go to prison.
16 So what does Mr. Winchester decide to do? well,
17 what do we know about Mr. Winchester up to this point?
18 He's a planner. He's a salesman. There's one other
19 thing about Mr. Winchester that's relevant at this point,
20 he's already planted evidence before. Don't forget the
21 hat. Remember the hat?
22 Brian Winchester is out on Lake Seminole riding
23 around with his dad. Lying to everybody about what
24 happened. Lying about what he knew. Lying about what he
25 did. That didn't stop him from planting evidence. He 746 1 put a hat out there. He planted evidence.
2 So we've got a man who plans. we've got a man who
3 sells and we've got a man who doesn't have a problem
4 planting physical evidence. So when you have those three
5 skill sets, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, and your
6 judge is Hangman Hankinson, and you're looking at life in
7 prison, what do you do?
8 Let's start with some obstruction of justice. Let's
9 go ahead and see if wade wilson can help me get some
10 evidence out there that's going to discredit Denise.
11 Let's get wade Wilson. And when I say wade wilson, I'm
12 not talking about Deadpool . I'm talking about a guy who
13 told Brian Winchester that he was a hitman and was a
14 convicted felon. That he knew how to do this.
15 Brian winchester, that's -- that's his people.
16 That's the people he must have an affinity for. So he
17 decides he is going to try to get Wade Wilson to help him
18 out with some witness tampering. Some obstruction of
19 justice.
20 Wade Wilson is not -- not the only one. He's going
21 to throw in Kimberly Adams. And these are all things
22 that, in between tears and in between performance,
23 Mr. Winchester tells you. Yeah, you know, going to get
24 Kimberly Adams involved. And just to maybe round out my
25 witness -tampering -obstruction -of -justice plan, I'm going 747 1 to throw my sister in on it. My only sister. I'm going
2 to try to get my only sister to tamper with witnesses and
3 to obstruct justice.
4 You don't have to have any black -- you don't have
5 to have any more desire to pervert justice than to try to
6 get your own sister drawn into witness tampering. But
7 that's what he did.
8 He was in jail from August 5, 2016 and he was in
9 jail in 2017. And all along he had never had a
10 confession. He had never had any epiphany. He had never
11 gone to law enforcement to say, oh, by the way, I killed
12 Mike Williams and I want to be forgiven. I want to be
13 redeemed.
14 Brian Winchester knew, just like every other person
15 that testified, that the Mike Williams' disappearance was
16 a big story. It was big news. People felt sympathy.
17 People felt anger. People felt concern. It had
18 high -value information.
19 So in the summer of 2017, after spending a year in
20 jail and recognizing that his obstruction of justice and
21 witness tampering plans were not going to work --
22 because, as Mr. Winchester said, lying only makes it
23 worse. Probably a really late time in life to come up
24 with that idea. But he said, well, lying made it worse.
25 Or did it? 748 1 I have tried witness tampering, sitting in jail. I
2 got nothing else to do. And I'm a planner, I'm a
3 salesman and I'll obstruct justice. So what do I have to
4 do? I will come up with -- not a life insurance policy,
5 I am going to come up with a Brian Life Policy.
6 I am going to come up with a way to not only get out
7 of the serious, serious trouble I'm in, the life felony
8 that I'm looking at with Judge Hankinson. I'm going to
9 give the State something so good they're going to give me
10 a free pass to murder. They're going to let me get away
11 with it. And as icing on the cake,I get revenge on
12 Denise Williams for turning me in to the police on August
13 5, 2016.
14 So what does Mr. Winchester, the salesman, planner,
15 the liar, the murderer, what does he come up with -- of
16 course I told you I'd put it upside down -- comes up with
17 Defense Exhibit 1. Interestingly, ladies and gentlemen
18 of the jury, you didn't hear about this in the State's
19 opening. And you also didn't hear about it in their
20 first closing argument.
21 You will get an opportunity to read this when you go
22 back. It is a three -page contract. It's styled A
23 Proffer of Brian Winchester, as you can see. It is not
24 the Brian Winchester Life Policy. That probably would
25 have been a little too obvious. But this three -page 749 1 document was entered into by the Office of the State
2 Attorney and Mr. Winchester and Mr. Winchester's lawyers.
3 And what does it do, ladies and gentlemen? We, the State
4 of Florida, will give you use and derivative immunity for
5 anything you tell us.
6 Now, what do we know about October of 2017? we know
7 that up until then law enforcement has no independent
8 evidence of the murder of Mike Williams. They have
9 nothing. No one has been arrested. No one has been
10 charged. They have a few little suspicions. They have a
11 few little things that look funny.
12 They look at, well, she married him, she must know
13 something. They want you to believe that's got something
14 to do with something. That she married a guy that she's
15 known since she was three. She didn't know he was a
16 murderer. Did find out, ultimately, that he was a bad
17 husband. Ms. Thomas knew that. I think Ms. Stafford
18 knows that. I mean, everybody knows he's a bad husband.
19 But up until October of 2017 there's no evidence.
20 Nothing's going to happen on this case.
21 So Mr. Winchester sells the Brian Winchester Life
22 Policy to the State Attorney's Office. And what does he
23 get? He gets never arrested for Mike Williams' murder.
24 He gets never charged with Mike Williams' murder. He
25 gets never had to come into a court and account for a 750 1 murder. He will never get sentenced for that murder. He
2 will never do time for that murder. He will never do
3 probation for that murder. He will never pay a fine for
4 that murder. He will never have to write a letter of
5 apology for that murder. Nothing.
6 But he was a better salesman, because he added some
7 more. The State agrees they're going to seek no more
8 than 45 years in prison, as a cap. The State agrees that
9 they will not tell Judge Hankinson about the witness
10 tampering. Because it would be fair comment on the
11 evidence to suggest that Judge Hankinson would not take
12 kindly to that.
13 He got everything he could ever hope for for
14 himself. And all he had to do was tell a little story
15 and take them to where he had buried Mike. Because, of
16 course, he knew where he buried Mike.
17 Because what we know is that he took Mike Williams
18 to a place they had hunted before. A place they knew.
19 Took his best friend. Talked to him every day. Known
20 him since high school. Kids were about the same age.
21 Starts a plan. Early morning when it's dark -- sounds a
22 lot like what he was going to do to Denise williams. of
23 course, he hadn't perfected his murder, disposing of
24 bodies tarp plan in 2000.
25 But he took -- he went with his best friend to Lake 751 1 Seminole. Put him in a boat, and he threw him out of the
2 boat.
3 Now, this thing about waders, ladies and gentlemen
4 of the jury, has nothing to do with anything. Because
5 Brian Winchester and Mike Williams hunted together. They
6 knew each other for years. There was no reason to
7 believe that Brian Winchester would not have known that
8 Mike Williams had had that wader training.
9 He knew how to get out of waders. There's no reason
10 to suspect that Mike Williams ever didn't tell Brian,
11 hey, listen,I don't know how to get out of waders. Of
12 course you do. You did it in the guy's backyard. You
13 knew how to do it. That's what hunters tell each other.
14 You know, hey, I know how to do it.
15 It's called drown proofing. People do it to their
16 kids. Put them in waders, throw them in the water. How
17 to get out. When you're a hunter, you learn these
18 things. You know how to do these things. You teach your
19 children how to do it. I teach my children how to do it.
20 But what does he do? He gets Mike in the water. He
21 starts ci rdi ng around him in his own boat, through the
22 stump field. And in the cold water, the dark water, the
23 black water, Mike makes it to a stump. And he's yelling.
24 He's yelling at Brian Winchester. And Brian is circling
25 him. circling him in Mike's own boat. He's circling 752 1 him.
2 And he gets up close to him. He pumps his shotgun.
3 Mike's yelling. He's bringing the boat. He gets up to
4 three feet and he shoots him in the face. Looked him in
5 the eyes, probably one last time, before he took away the
6 front of his head. Three feet.
7 Circles around again. Reaches down in the water
8 with his wet left hand. Goes all the way down, pulls the
9 body. Drives over. Leaves the body on shore. Backs his
10 truck up. He takes the lifeless, faceless body of his
11 best friend and he shoves the head into a dog crate.
12 Into a dog crate. And he speeds back to Tallahassee.
13 Says he gets in bed with his wife. Interestingly,
14 his wife never testified about remembering that. She
15 said,I saw him around three o'clock at the family
16 function. Drives around, says he sees Mike Phillips at
17 Wal-Mart. Mike Phillips didn't see him at Wal-Mart. But
18 he did get a tarp and he got a tool. And he went out, he
19 dug a shallow grave. Pulled his best friend out of the
20 dog crate, rolled him up, put him in a tarp, put him in a
21 hole. That's what he did.
22 Now, he says -- you know, when I ask him questions
23 he says, we did it. I asked him if Denise Williams was
24 with him on that cold morning in December of 2000. He
25 says, She was in my head. There's no telling what else 753 1 was in Mike -- Brian winchester's head. what voices he
2 was hearing. He said, She was in my head.
3 So he's got the story. Because, of course, he knows
4 the details because he killed Mike. He knows the
5 details. That, ladies and gentlemen, is not
6 corroboration. That's called a confession. If I tell
7 you where I buried the body,I am not corroborating
8 another fact. I am confessing to you what I have done.
9 And he told whoever would listen, this is where the
10 body is. Let's go dig it up. Let's have a field trip.
11 Because I'm good. I can feel relieved because I have the
12 Brian Winchester Life Policy. It does not matter how bad
13 this looks. It does not matter how bad it sounds. I am
14 going free on the murder. Scot-free.
15 So a couple of months pass. Mr. Winchester is
16 brought before the Court. He enters a plea. Judge
17 Hankinson, who, by the terms of this agreement, is not
18 aware of the Wade Wilson case. Read t carefully.
19 Mr. Winchester and the State agreed not to tell the Judge
20 about the witness tampering.
21 It's extremely unclear that the Judge would have
22 even known that that agreement existed. Because they
23 entered an open plea, the Judge considered only the
24 kidnapping, only the armed assault. That was all that
25 they told Judge Hankinson about. 754 1 So Judge Hankinson sentenced Brian winchester to 20
2 years in prison. Twenty years. He hemmed and hawed a
3 little bit about how much of that time he'll actually
4 serve. But it's no more than 20 years from that date he
5 got arrested in August of 2016.
6 So the longest -- from the testimony -- that Brian
7 Winchester is going to be locked up is until 2036. And
8 it's only for kidnapping Denise. It's only for sticking
9 a gun in her ribs. It is not for shooting his best
10 friend in the face with a 12 -gauge shotgun.
11 And so now the State has the Brian Winchester Life
12 Policy. And they've got -- well, we found the body. But
13 we're prosecutors and so we're kind of in the
14 somebody's -got -to -pay business. Brian Winchester is over
15 there saying, hey, Denise helped me. Hey, why not?
16 Denise did it.
17 Because what do we know about Brian Winchester?
18 He's a liar and he's a murderer. I mean, he lied
19 about -- you know, from the beginning of this case. He
20 lied to his father. He lies to all these women over the
21 years. He lies about -- he just lies. He's a murderer
22 and a liar. But he's also a salesman and a planner. And
23 he -- the fifth thing, he likes to obstruct justice.
24 So now he's got these FDLE guys all on the hook.
25 They are racked in on the Brian Winchester Life Policy. 755 1 So what does law enforcement do? well, let's set up some
2 things where we're going to lie to her. Yeah, that's a
3 good idea. Let's do some lying. We're FDLE. As if they
4 take a page out of the Brian winchester playbook. Let's
5 not be truthful. Let's tape this phone call.
6 This so-called phone call, ladies and gentlemen,
7 please listen to it. Don't listen to the edited parts.
8 Look at your notes. That phrase, I'm going to tell --
9 tell Marcus to tell Brian I'm not going to talk. That's
10 not in that audio. what it is is, it's Cathy Thomas, who
11 has been scripted by the Florida Department of Law
12 Enforcement. who is putting on a semi-oscar-worthy
13 performance with the snot and sniffling talking about her
14 marriage. She's the one that's bringing that up.
15 There is no recording, e-mail, text message, any
16 kind of evidence that suggests Denise Williams ever said,
17 tell Brian to tell Marcus or whoever. And if she did
18 make that statement, she would have made that statement,
19 according to the State, some time in 2016. But all of
20 these recordings that Ms. Thomas is doing, they're in
21 2018.
22 Ladies and gentlemen of the jury,I don't mean to
23 particularly harp on Ms. Thomas, but one of the
24 instructions is, you can look to how a witness answered
25 questions. If you think back on how Ms. Thomas was on 756 1 answering questions and time, and how things happened,
2 and what order they happened in, she's confused and she
3 doesn't really know exactly what that was about.
4 what she does know is Denise Williams told her, I
5 don't want to talk to Mr. Devaney, because I don't like
6 him. Mr. Devaney is a jerk. That's what she told her.
7 And she and Ms. Thomas talked every day by phone or by
8 text.
9 Ms. Williams didn't have a hard time talking to Leon
10 County Sheriff's Office when Brian Winchester shoved a
11 gun in her. It's something that kind of looks good. But
12 it's got to work with the Brian Winchester Life Policy.
13 Because somebody has to pay.
14 That's what the State needs you to do. They need
15 you to come out and give them cover for not thinking
16 about how bad this policy was going to be for them. They
17 gave a free pass to a murderer and they got nothing else.
18 So, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, itTs always
19 the wife. Follow the money. Do the easiest thing you
20 can do. Just throw it up there and hope something
21 sticks. Let's help Brian get that revenge he needs.
22 Let's go after Denise. Because that's the story
23 everybody wants to hear. That's the easy story.
24 When Mr. Fuchs was talking to you and he was
25 pointing to things, and he would say, you know, the 757 1 evidence corroborates, the evidence does this, the
2 evidence does that. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury,
3 hindsight is 20/20. if you know what lie you're trying
4 to spin, you can look back in your catalog of memories
5 and try to find things that maybe work with the lie or
6 the story you're making up. If you know what the story
7 needs to be in 2017, you can give the person who's
8 listening the facts you think that help support it.
9 In the span of 21 years, ladies and gentlemen of the
10 jury, without Brian Winchester -- without Brian
11 Winchester, they have come up with this.
12 it is not your place, ladies and gentlemen of the
13 jury, to feel sorry for anyone. Certainly not your place
14 to feel sorry for the State Attorney's Office for the
15 horrible decision they made to give the murderer a free
16 pass. But you certainly don't have to try to help them
17 undo that horrible decision.
18 This case is only about Brian winchester. It is
19 only about him killing Mike Williams. It is only about
20 him doing the most heinous thing that can be done to
21 another human being. He took his life. He took away
22 Denise's husband. He took away Anslee's father. He took
23 away Cheryl's son. He took away Nick's brother. He took
24 away all of the friends and family. Brian Winchester did
25 that. Not Denise Williams. 758 1 There is no evidence that supports any of the
2 allegations against my client. Not accessory. Not
3 principal. Not conspiracy.
4 i want to leave you with the final thought that I
5 maybe touched on earlier, that when Brian Winchester was
6 asked all these questions and I was standing there. And
7 i was talking faster than I probably am now -- although I
8 sense from the court reporter that I'm probably about 300
9 words a minute right now. okay. Maybe a little under.
10 But as I was standing there and I was asking him
11 questions, you remember that at every gratuitous
12 opportunity he would say we, we, we. His scripted moment
13 he would say we. Because he could think that maybe,
14 maybe that fat, fuzzy lawyer is going to get up there in
15 that little snarky tone he takes. He's going to poke at
16 me, so I need to be prepared for that. Because what am
17 I? I'm a planner and a salesman and a murderer and a
18 liar and an obstructer of justice. But when that lawyer
19 comes at me, I'm going to say we. I'm going to show him.
20 And I'm going to show the jury that it's we.
21 He was waiting for those questions. You can tell.
22 Think back. Go through your memory. Go through your
23 notes. Think about all the times you heard the word we.
24 But then at the end I asked the two questions that
25 every defense lawyer on the planet would hope to ask and 759 1 never expect an answer. Mr. winchester, you are a
2 murderer? Yes,I -- I am.
3 The next question, the one that every lawyer dreams
4 of to ask a witness in a trial. Mr. winchester, you are
5 a liar? Yes, I am. There is no we, ladies and gentlemen
6 of the jury. There is only the I that is him. That is
7 Brian winchester. who viciously murdered his best
8 friend, dragged his body back to town in a dog crate,
9 buried him in a shallow grave.
10 To make this work for Brian Winchester, it doesn't
11 really matter anymore. He's gotten all the benefit he's
12 ever going to get out of that agreement, that deal, that
13 Brian Winchester Policy. But, see, the State's left with
14 it now. They bought the policy. They bought it. They
15 agreed to it.
16 You don't have to. You don't have to buy a single
17 thing that he sold them. You don't have to believe it.
18 You don't have to do it. Because, ladies and gentlemen
19 of the jury, you took three oaths to tell the truth. It
20 got you to where you are sitting here today. And I'm
21 going to respectfully hold you to those oaths. And
22 Denise Williams is going to hold you to those oaths.
23 You're going to look at those instructions and
24 you're going to see it. And you're going to look through
25 it and you're going to look at that evidence. And you're 760 1 not going to feel sorry for the State. You're not going
2 to feel the need to somehow give them a conviction so
3 they get something out of this. That's not justice.
4 And these instructions will contain a phrase,
5 miscarriage of justice. we are counting on you to return
6 a verdict that speaks the truth and that verdict is not
7 guilty. To fail to follow the instructions is a
8 miscarriage of justice. we believe you will not do that.
9 we do know, however, ladies and gentlemen of the
10 jury, Brian Winchester will obstruct justice.
11 Denise Williams is not guilty.
12 THE COURT: Let's stand up for just a minute, if we
13 would. Everybody okay? we're going to go into
14 Mr. Fuchs' argument.
15 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, before I go --
16 THE COURT: Anybody need --
17 MR. FUCHS: ITm sorry. Before I go into argument, I
18 also need a sidebar too.
19 THE COURT: Okay. Anybody need to take a break?
20 (No audible response.)
21 THE COURT: Okay. We're good.
22 All right. We'll go sidebar.
23 (Sidebar had as follows):
24 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, yesterday there was a motion
25 in limine regarding statements having to do with whether 761 1 she cooperates or does not cooperate with law
2 enforcement. Mr. way argued that extensively. And I'd
3 argue that it opened the door for me to talk about the
4 fact that the change of circumstances, her contacting law
5 enforcement -- she didn't respond to calls from will
6 Mickler and the other items that we talked about
7 previously.
8 THE COURT: Mr. way?
9 MR. WAY: I don't have a position.
10 THE COURT: I agree. He said several things that
11 opened the door. But, still, you need to do it
12 carefully.
13 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir.
14 THE COURT: because it can -- if in -artfully stated,
15 could become a comment on her right to remain silent.
16 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir.
17 (Sidebar concluded.)
18 MR. FUCHS: Yes,I have a Power Point. It's how I
19 keep my notes.
20 Mr. Way said, let's take Brian out of the equation.
21 Without Brian there's nothing. Brian's a liar. Brian's
22 a murderer. Yeah, he is.
23 But let's start off by taking Brian out of the
24 equation and let's go to that recording. Previously,
25 I've already played to you -- you've heard the entire 762 1 recording. it's 23 minutes. So I've taken snippets out
2 so you don't have to sit here for the full 23 minutes.
3 But there's more to that recording than just the one
4 statement.
5 And when you listen to this next one that we have
6 here,I want you to look at this through this
7 perspective. On the cross-examination of Cheryl
8 williams, and they were talking about Anslee,
9 Mr. Padovano asked Ms. Cheryl Williams, If she was
10 innocent and accused of murdering Mike -- talking about
11 Denise -- you would expect her to react in anger,
12 wouldn't you? Yes.
13 In that recording she accuses -- Cathy accuses
14 Denise Williams of planning and plotting and her
15 involvement in the murder.
16 (Audio playing)
17 MS. THOMAS: Brian told me that y'all planned it.
18 MS. WILLIAMS: Planned what? oh, my gosh.
19 MS. THOMAS: And Marcus showed up at the shop later
20 that afternoon.
21 MS. WILLIAMS: uh-huh.
22 MS. THOMAS: You know, telling me how I would have
23 to take this to my grave.
24 MS. WILLIAMS: Wait. Wait. So --
25 MS. THOMAS: That it would ruin (inaudible) life. 763 1 It would ruin -- you know, apparently, Brian told Marcus
2 that he had talked to me. And he went on to just tell
3 me -- Marcus went on to tell me how my life would be
4 ruined. How I would never be able to start over if
5 Stafford's life was ruined. If --
6 MS. WILLIAMS: So Marcus knew? When you said Brian
7 said y'all, you're talking about me and Brian, or Marcus,
8 or who?
9 MS. THOMAS: You and Brian.
10 MS. WILLIAMS: And that Marcus is involved? I mean,
11 obviously, if he came and talked to you.
12 MS. THOMAS: well, there's just a whole, you know,
13 shut it down, shut down. So, you know, whenever --
14 MS. WILLIAMS: What in the world?
15 MS. THOMAS: I mean, it's -- it's -- it's --
16 MS. WILLIAMS: And then you got a letter from Chuck.
17 My parents got a letter too. But you got a letter from
18 Chuck and he's talking about it too, or no?
19 MS. THOMAS: Chuck told me what happened in Atlanta.
20 MS. WILLIAMS: In Atlanta. okay. Yeah.
21 MS. THOMAS: So, here's the deal. Here is the deal.
22 Hang on. Somebody's texting me. Rex is not doing well.
23 MS. WILLIAMS: Aw. Yeah, you know, that's pretty
24 major. Especially with Marcus involved.
25 (Audio stopped.) 764 1 MR. FUCHS: She is just accused of murdering her
2 ex-husband by her friend and her concern is that Marcus
3 was involved. That's her issue? Brian told me that
4 y'all conspired, planned and killed Mike williams. wait,
5 Marcus is involved?
6 This is the same person that cut off the grandmother
7 from the granddaughter because she made accusations
8 against her. In this recording she's concerned about
9 Rex.
10 Just accused of murder and the only thing she wants
11 to know is, Marcus was involved, why? Because the pact
12 that she had with Brian winchester was that nobody else
13 would know. Just them. And that's how they kept it a
14 secret for that 17, 18 years. That's why she's concerned
15 about maybe Marcus is involved. It's not the fact that,
16 oh, by the way, I've been told that you killed your
17 husband. Her concern is Marcus is involved.
18 I'm not going to play the whole thing, but she
19 actually accuses her twice. Two times. It's not even
20 what she says. It's what she doesn't say. In this
21 recording she's just accused by one of her best friends
22 of plotting to murder her husband, who was, in fact,
23 murdered, and never says, oh, no,I didn't. what she
24 says is, wait, Marcus is involved.
25 You go back -- and you'll have the opportunity, 765 1 because you have this entire recording to go back there.
2 Again, I'm not going to sit up for 23 minutes and just
3 play it again. But you have the ability to do so back in
4 the jury room. Go back and listen to this recording. It
5 lays out this entire case without Brian.
6 Accuses her of the homicide, we've already heard
7 that part. Two times. Talks about the Chuck Bunker
8 thing. And actually says -- and Denise admits to the
9 fact that Chuck Bunker -- she was actually cheating on
10 Brian by going with Chuck Bunker up there in Atlanta.
11 when she accuses a second time, she goes, why
12 couldn't y'all have just gotten a divorce. She asked if
13 Mike knew. And they talk about things like money. And
14 Mike didn't find out about anything. That he didn't
15 suspect anything. Didn't suspect the affair.
16 That recording goes beyond just the statement that
17 implicates her for the accessory after the fact. That
18 recording, without Brian, lays out the whole thing.
19 Listen to it. use that common sense. use those skills,
20 your education, your life skills that you use each and
21 every single day, and listen to that recording and what
22 is said and what is not said. And even if you take Brian
23 out of it, it tells you the whole story that you need to
24 return a verdict of guilty.
25 Mr. way says this is not about justice for Mike. 766 1 This absolutely is about justice for Mike. This is about
2 holding that person accountable for it in what her role
3 is. That's what you are here to decide, what her role
4 was in all of this. That is solely what you are here
5 for.
6 He says, take Brian out of the equation. That guy
7 is a bad, bad, bad man. He held up the proffer
8 agreement. My signature is on that proffer agreement. I
9 had to make a decision to solve a 17 -year -old homicide
10 case. was it a good decision? I don't know. Time will
11 tell. That is a cross that I must bear.
12 To sit here and listen to him describe how he killed
13 his best friend while asking him the questions turns my
14 stomach, just like it did everybody else. But he is a
15 part of this case, like it or not. He is not going free.
16 Jason Newlin, the investigator for the State
17 AttorneyTs Office that conducted the proffer agreement,
18 told you what we were there for on the proffer agreement.
19 The proffer agreement was to get closure for the family
20 and to find Mike Williams. At no point was this proffer
21 agreement about implicating Denise Williams.
22 We are here today because that's where the evidence
23 took us. And it wasn't based upon -- solely upon Brian's
24 testimony. It was based upon going back and looking at
25 the things and finding the witnesses that we found 767 1 afterwards to corroborate not only his story, but also to
2 get that recording that tells the picture. The totality
3 of everything. And that's your job too, to sort through
4 that as well
5 Brian winchester is not going free. He has 20 years
6 in the Department of Corrections followed by 15 years of
7 probation. while he's sitting there in the prison
8 cell -- as he wakes up every day on that bed and stares
9 at those bars -- at no point,I assure you, does he say,
10 I'm glad I'm here on this and not that.
11 He is in prison. A prison cell looks the same
12 whether you're there for murder or whether you're there
13 for kidnapping. And he's got 15 years of probation. If
14 at any point he violates that probation, gets in a fight
15 at the prison, I assure you, we're coming after him.
16 But, also, let's take a look at that proffer
17 agreement. You've got the entirety there, just like
18 Mr. way told you. If at any time he lies or purgers
19 himself under oath about anything contained in any of his
20 statements, the entire statement can be used against him
21 and he can be prosecuted for murder.
22 Now, normally an immunity situation you think, well,
23 maybe he's lying. Ladies and gentlemen, that man has
24 absolutely every reason to tell you the truth. Because
25 if he lies in any way, shape or form, that immunity yMeJ
1 agreement gets shredded and he goes down for murder by
2 his own confession.
3 On its face you say, wait a second, immunity thing.
4 But when you look into it, that man has got the ultimate
5 motive to make sure that he is telling you the truth.
6 Yes, it's awful.
7 I don't in any way, shape or form think I'm Eliot
8 Ness or the U.S. Government, but that's exactly what they
9 did with Al Capone. They got him for tax evasion. Just
10 like Brian winchester, he was a murderer as well. They
11 got him for what they could get him for. And that's why
12 the immunity agreement exists.
13 And the only thing the immunity agreement says is I
14 couldn't ask for life imprisonment. I asked for 45
15 years. I got 20. If he violates, I'll get more.
16 This is about justice for Mike. And what her role
17 was in all of this. Use your common sense, your
18 experience, your education and life skills. Why send
19 that message? Why send that message? Because she knew
20 that she had went to law enforcement and she knew a very
21 real possibility in this situation was that Brian was
22 going to turn around and dime her out. And she wanted to
23 make sure that she told him, hey,I want you to know I
24 didn't say anything. Say anything about what? Tell
25 Marcus to tell Brian I didn't say anything. Say anything 769 1 about what?
2 She's sitting there talking to law enforcement. why
3 send that message unless what Brian tells you is true,
4 that there was an agreement that they would never talk to
5 law enforcement together. It's the only thing that makes
6 sense for that entire message. It's the only thing that
7 makes sense.
8 She wants to make sure -- she understands that he
9 has the ability now to dime her out. And she wants him
10 to make sure that he knows that she didn't do it, and,
11 therefore, he shouldn't do it either and he should stick
12 to the pact. Stick to the agreement that they had.
13 It's the only logical reason for sending that
14 particular message within the week of his arrest. Again,
15 I'm not going to play it, but you don't have to take my
16 word for it. we have it on the recording.
17 If nothing else, nothing else, argument will say
18 that she wasn't part of the conspiracy, wasn't part of
19 the murder, and found out later on that Brian was
20 involved and actually did commit the murder of Mike
21 Williams. That statement itself implicates her on the
22 accessory after the fact.
23 As I said, you apply everything else back in now
24 that we take and know what Brian told us. Because he is
25 a part of this. He does have incentive to tell you the 770 1 truth. And what he told you is corroborated by the
2 witnesses.
3 But let's talk about this, what we know about Denise
4 williams. we know that over the years there at Ketcham
5 Realty she would regularly call up, Brian -- I mean,
6 Mike, come get me my gas in my car, bring me food. I'm
7 going to go talk to Brian instead of you. A little
8 controlling, maybe?
9 use your common sense, experience, education and
10 life skills. How do they not have a conversation like
11 this -- on the day of their anniversary when they're
12 going to Apalachicola, how is it that he doesn't ask her
13 for permission to go? Is it all right if I go hunting
14 Saturday morning before we go to Apalach? Sure. who are
15 you going hunting with? Brian. All right, what time
16 you going to be back? what time are we leaving? okay.
17 That works.
18 So use your common sense. use your skills,
19 experience, life skills. This conversation occurs,
20 what's the first thing she says to law enforcement, or
21 anybody for that matter, when Brian doesn't -- when Mike
22 doesn't come back from hunting? Call Brian, he's the one
23 that was with him. That's the first thing you would do.
24 Law enforcement will go talk to Brian. where were
25 you? Maybe we would have uncovered all this back then. 771 1 I don't know. But your skills, your education, your life
2 skills tells you, this is the way it would have gone
3 down. unless they have a plan and a pact to set up
4 alibis and not dime each other out. And she's involved
5 in the homicide. Because then the answer is;I don't
6 know. He just went hunting and he didn't come back.
7 SheTs arrested by law enforcement -- I'm sorry. On
8 the day she goes for the kidnapping -- excuse me. On the
9 day she goes for the kidnapping Mike Devaney says,
10 involved in any way, shape or form. At no point does she
11 say, you know, there have been rumors for years about
12 this thing, but I never wanted to believe it. I was in
13 love with the guy. But maybe after what happened this
14 morning, it's true.
15 Nope, what she tells Devaney is, no way he did it.
16 i never would have married him if I thought he did. No
17 way he did it. Part of the pact. Part of the agreement.
18 Mr. way talked a little about law enforcement. How
19 cooperative she was with law enforcement. Think back.
20 How cooperative she was with Dr. woot -- with sergeant
21 wooten. Yeah. until Sergeant Wooten says, Florida
22 Department of Law Enforcement is involved. And what does
23 she know about Florida Department of Law Enforcement?
24 Mike Devaney came in and said, I'm investigating the
25 murder of Mike Williams and Brian's involvement in that. 772 1 And what happened when Florida Department of Law
2 Enforcement got involved? She stopped returning will
3 Mickler's phone calls.
4 If Brian's lying to you, why, why are you
5 threatening the grandmother to stop the investigation on
6 two occasions? And you'll never see your granddaughter
7 again. Brian didn't make that threat. She did. The day
8 before her birthday. If you don't stop this
9 investigation, you'll never see your granddaughter again.
10 The day before her birthday. And she never did.
11 Ladies and gentlemen, that's not the actions of an
12 innocent person. That's the actions of someone who was
13 in a plan to commit a murder. A murder was occurred.
14 And was afraid of an investigation and all the hubbub
15 that Ms. Cheryl was making. She was afraid Cheryl would
16 succeed. And she did.
17 Let's talk a little bit more. Go back to the money,
18 the motive. Follow the money. Brian can't get it.
19 She's the sole beneficiary. He can't get it.
20 $1.75 million isn't a motive for him because he doesn't
21 get a dime of it. only Denise can collect that money.
22 And what did she do? She wasted no time. Kansas
23 City Life, $1 million policy, $250,000, $1.25 million
24 submitted for, her signature. Look at the date, January
25 4th of 2001. 773 1 Ladies and gentlemen, the search didn't even end
2 until February. Brian's friends, family, law enforcement
3 are on the lake looking for him. Extensive search all
4 the way through February. And 19 days later she's filing
5 for his insurance payment of $1.25 million. Nineteen
6 whole days. That's a cold individual. That's a person
7 that's involved in a homicide.
8 Ladies and gentlemen, as I said, I was thanking you
9 for the way that you pay attention. Not only to the
10 evidence presented, but the things that happened in this
11 courtroom. Think back three days ago. Brian Winchester
12 is on the stand describing how he shot his best friend.
13 How he circled around the stump. Approached, three feet
14 away, shot him in the face. Everybody in this entire
15 room was moved by that and the sheer horror of that
16 situation, except for one person.
17 That one person sat here and listened to Brian
18 Winchester describe how she had -- how he had shot and
19 killed her husband -- the man she supposedly loved and
20 cherished -- absolute stoned face. Didn't bat an eye.
21 Didn't shed a tear. use your life skills, your
22 experience, your education. How does that apply in all
23 of this?
24 Again, back to that recording. Go back, listen to
25 it. You've got it. It lays the entire case out without 774 1 Brian winchester's involvement.
2 But the simple fact is, Brian Winchester is
3 involved. He's involved because he pulled the trigger.
4 He's involved because he had a three -year -affair, prior
5 to the murder, with Denise. He's involved because he
6 helped plan it with her. Yeah, he got the immunity deal.
7 He's serving prison time for what he is. But that
8 doesn't change her involvement and that's what you're
9 here for.
10 (Audio playing)
11 MS. THOMAS: Like, I've always thought to myself, if
12 I had said, Mike, I think Brian has a girlfriend. I've
13 always wondered if he would still be here. Like, why
14 couldn't y'all just get a divorce? I've always known
15 that you and Brian loved each other.
16 (Audio stopped.)
17 MR. FUCHS: Mr. Way made a little bit of an issue
18 about the divorce. She could get a divorce from Brian
19 Winchester because Anslee wasn't involved. That's why
20 she couldn't get the divorce from Brian -- I mean, from
21 Mike. She didn't want to have to share custody with her
22 father.
23 Doesn't that make sense for the same person that
24 took Mike Williams' daughter away from the grandmother?
25 Who 19 days later filed for an insurance claim. who sat 775 1 here stone faced.
2 Ladies and gentlemen, Mike williams was a devoted
3 father. He was a devoted husband. Mike williams died
4 with his ring on. with that devotion. The only part of
5 that that Denise williams took to heart is till death do
6 us part. And she took it to the extreme.
7 And she, along with Brian winchester, made sure that
8 death did him part. She helped plan it. She held up her
9 end of the bargain by helping with alibis. She helped
10 with her bargain by helping him afterwards. By making
11 sure that even though she had him arrested, that she
12 didn't say anything.
13 And when you take all that into account, that lady
14 right there, Ms. Denise williams, is guilty of conspiracy
15 to commit murder, first -degree murder, and accessory
16 after the fact. Thank you.
17 THE COURT: Let's turn back to page 10 of your jury
18 instructions, please, folks. Submitting case to the jury
19 at the bottom of page 10.
20 In just a few moments you'll be taken to the jury
21 room by the bailiff. The first thing you should do is
22 choose a foreperson who will preside over your
23 deliberations.
24 The foreperson should see to it that your
25 discussions are carried on in an organized way and that 776 1 everyone has a fair chance to be heard. It is also the
2 foreperson's job to sign and date the verdict form when
3 all of you have agreed on a verdict and to bring the
4 verdict form back to the courtroom when you return.
5 During deliberations jurors must communicate about
6 the case only with one another and only when all jurors
7 are present in the jury room. You are not to communicate
8 with any person outside the jury about this case.
9 until you have reached a verdict you must not talk
10 about this case in person or through the telephone,
11 writing or electronic communications such as a blog,
12 Twitter, e-mail, text message or any other means. Do not
13 contact anyone to assist you during deliberations.
14 These communication rules apply untilI discharge
15 you at the end of the case. If you become aware of any
16 violation of these instructions, or any other instruction
17 I have given in this case, you must tell me by giving a
18 note to the bailiff.
19 Many of you may have cell phones or other electronic
20 devices with you. The rules do not allow you to bring
21 your phones or any of those types of electronic devices
22 into the jury room during your deliberations. Kindly
23 leave those devices with the bailiff while you
24 deliberate.
25 If you need to communicate with me, send a note 777 1 through the bailiff signed by the foreperson. If you
2 have voted, do not disclose the actual vote in the note.
3 If you have questions, I will talk with the attorneys
4 before I answer so it may take some time. You may
5 continue your deliberations while you wait for my answer.
6 I will answer any questions, if I can, in writing or
7 orally here in open court.
8 During the trial items were received into evidence
9 as exhibits. You may examine whatever exhibits you think
10 will help you in your deliberations. The exhibits will
11 be delivered to you shortly.
12 In closing, let me remind you that it is important
13 that you follow the law spelled out in these instructions
14 in deciding your verdict. There are no other laws that
15 apply to this case. Even if you do not like the laws
16 that must be applied, you must use them. For two
17 centuries we've lived by the Constitution and the law.
18 No juror has a right to violate the rules we all share.
19 Let's go sidebar, please.
20 (Sidebar had as follows):
21 THE COURT: Any additional objections to the
22 instructions as read?
23 MR. FUCHS: No, sir.
24 MR. WAY: No. Just renewal of previous objections.
25 THE COURT: I think the only objection was on the 778 1 principal instruction, correct?
2 MR. WAY: Yes, sir.
3 THE COURT: My notes indicate Ms. Barney and
4 Ms. Barnes are our alternates. Are we in agreement about
5 that?
6 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir.
7 MR. WAY: Yes, Your Honor.
8 THE COURT: We'll hold those two jurors and send the
9 others out to deliberate.
10 i want the attorneys to go through the evidence.
11 Make sure what's being sent to the jury room is what's
12 been properly placed into evidence. We need to be
13 particularly careful with the exhibits that were not
14 admitted. The clerk has to make sure those don't get
15 mixed in.
16 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir.
17 THE COURT: You can be doing that while I talk to
18 the alternates. Anything else from either side?
19 MR. FUCHS: No, sir.
20 (Discussion off the record.)
21 THE COURT: Anything else?
22 MR. WAY: No, sir.
23 THE COURT: All right.
24 (Sidebar concluded.)
25 THE COURT: Ms. Barney and Ms. Barnes, you need to 779 1 remain here with us. The rest of you may step out to
2 begin your deliberations. Take your notepad, your pen,
3 your instructions. Even if you didn't make any notes,
4 you might want something to write on so take that with
5 you. we'll be sending you the evidence.
6 All right. You may step out with the bailiff.
7 (Jury exits.)
8 THE COURT: Ms. Barnes, Ms. Barney -- everybody be
9 seated, please, or you can step out.
10 we pick alternates in these cases. A lot goes into
11 getting these cases started. we don't want to have to
12 start all over again because we lose someone. we
13 actually had two situations during the course of the week
14 I thought we might lose a juror. It turned out we
15 didn't.
16 Y'all need to keep it down just a little bit.
17 I hope you don't feel like we wasted your time. As
18 I say, a lot goes into starting one of these cases. we
19 don't want to have to start all over again because we
20 lose someone. It is an important function for us that
21 there is still a slight possibility that we would have to
22 call upon you if some juror were to get indisposed before
23 we reach a verdict.
24 Because of that,I would ask that you do two things
25 for me: I would ask that you not discuss the case with 1 anyone until we get a verdict. You might get inquiry
2 from media, from friends or whatever. I would ask that
3 you just not discuss it until we get a verdict. I'll ask
4 the deputy to call you when we get a verdict and let you
5 know we have a verdict.
6 Once we get a verdict, you can discuss it or not as
7 you see fit. You don't have to stay here, although
8 you're welcome to stay here if you want to stay here and
9 see what happens. The deputy will find a comfortable
10 place for you to sit.
11 But if you want to go about your business, I would
12 ask that you give him a phone number where he can reach
13 you in an emergency. Like I say, you're welcome to stay
14 or you're welcome to go. we just need a way to contact
15 you in an emergency.
16 You can't go back in the jury room. Hopefully, the
17 deputy has gathered your personal effects. we do
18 appreciate your time and attention. I know that's a long
19 time to ask you to sit and then tell you you don't get to
20 take part. But it was very important to us and we
21 appreciate that.
22 Have you gotten their things, Jay?
23 BAILIFF: Yes, sir. I believe so.
24 THE COURT: All right. I'll let you step out.
25 You'll have to step out -- not through the jury room, 781 1 Deputy. ''ou can go out behind me here.
2 (Jurors exit.)
3 THE COURT: All right. Have the parties had a
4 chance to go through the evidence?
5 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir.
6 MR. WAY: Yes, Your Honor.
7 THE COURT: Confirm that what's being sent to the
8 jury is what was properly placed in evidence?
9 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir.
10 MR. WAY: Yes, Your Honor.
11 THE COURT: All right. Any issues from either side?
12 MR. FUCHS: No, Your Honor.
13 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor. Other than what's been
14 previously raised.
15 THE COURT: All right. I do appreciate the
16 professional manner in which both sides have conducted
17 themselves. It's been very aggressively but very
18 professionally presented. Makes my job a lot easier. So
19 for that I'm appreciative.
20 we'll be in recess until we hear from the jury.
21 MR. FUCHS: Your Honor, just so you're aware, I made
22 a copy earlier of my Power Point presentation for
23 supplementing into the record. I may go back and change
24 them, because based upon Mr. Way, I have to make a couple
25 of changes. So I'm going to go back, re -burn them and 782 1 then give them to the clerk.
2 THE COURT: All right. That will be good. Thank
3 you.
4 MR. FUCHS: And they're going to be marked -- how do
5 we want to mark those?
6 THE COURT: Court Exhibit whatever is next.
7 All right. we'll be in recess.
8 (A recess was had.)
9 THE COURT: we've received a question from the jury.
10 I believe each of you have been given a copy of it; have
11 you not?
12 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir.
13 MR. WAY: Yes, Your Honor.
14 THE COURT: It says, What is a series of, quote,
15 act, end quote, question mark. Paren, series of related
16 actions, closed paren.
17 I've drafted a proposed response to the jury. I'll
18 read it and then I'll get your comment.
19 Dear Jurors, you have asked me about the statement
20 in the jury instructions, an act -- and act is in
21 quotations -- includes a series of related actions
22 arising from and performed pursuant to a single design or
23 purpose. That would be the end of the quote.
24 These terms do not have any special legal
25 definition. You should define these terms as you would 783 1 in everyday normal usage.
2 The explanation is given simply to say that the,
3 quote, act, end quote, might be a single act or it might
4 involve multiple acts. In the latter case, the multiple
5 acts have to relate to a, quote, single design or
6 purpose, end quote.
7 i hope this answers your question. If not, please
8 clarify what you're confused about with another question.
9 State?
10 MR. FUCHS: No objection, Your Honor.
11 THE COURT: Defense?
12 MR. WAY: No objection, Your Honor.
13 THE COURT: All right. We'll give that to the jury
14 and wait to hear further.
15 (A recess was had.)
16 THE COURT: Be seated, please, folks.
17 All right, we received a question from the jury.
18 believe each side was given a copy of it; is that
19 correct?
20 MR. FUCHS: Yes, Your Honor.
21 MR. WAY: Yes, Your Honor.
22 THE COURT: All right. The question, for the
23 record, says, if we find Denise guilty on Count 1, does
24 that mean she is guilty on Count 2 because Count 1 is a
25 criminal act, question? 784 1 I've written a proposed answer. Read this and then
2 hear your comments.
3 Dear Jurors, your question asks me to apply the
4 facts to the law. I cannot answer that type of question.
5 It is your job to decide the facts and apply the facts to
6 the law. However,I would remind you of the instruction
7 on page 10 that provides -- and this is just a quote from
8 our jury instructions on page 10 -- a separate crime is
9 charged in each count of the indictment. And although
10 they have been tried together, each crime and the
11 evidence applicable to it must be considered separately
12 and a separate verdict returned as to each. A finding of
13 guilty or not guilty as to one crime must not affect your
14 verdict as to the other crime charged. That would be the
15 end of the quote.
16 If that provision does not answer your legal
17 question, you will need to clarify your legal question.
18 Comments?
19 MR. FUCHS: I believe that's a correct statement of
20 the law.
21 MR. WAY: Yes, Your Honor. That's very well
22 written.
23 THE COURT: I did notice as I was reading this I
24 should have said as to the other crimes charged, because
25 there are more than two. But, anyway,I don't think I'm 785 1 going to get into changing it at this point in time.
2 That's the way the instruction was given, so...
3 Either side have objection?
4 MR.FUCHS: No, Your Honor.
5 MR. WAY: None from the defense.
6 THECOURT: Allright. We'll give that to the jury
7 and wait to hear further.
8 (Arecess was had.)
9 THECOURT: Be seated, please, folks.
10 Allright, we had an inquiry from the jury. I
11 believe you all have copies of it, do you not?
12 MR.FUCHS: Yes, sir.
13 MR. WAY: Yes, Your Honor.
14 THECOURT: Allright. It says, Could we have
15 Brian's testimony? Isit possible?
16 Ithink what they're thinking is that we'll just
17 give them a transcript, Obviously, we're not going to
18 just give them a transcript. From talking to the court
19 reporter, we're probably talking about, as a read back,
20 about three hours worth of testimony.
21 what I'm inclined to do is bring them in and tell
22 them that, you know, we can't give them a transcript. I
23 don't think that would be appropriate. We don't have
24 transcript to give them. But even if we could,Idon't
25 think it's appropriate to give them a transcript of trial 1 testimony.
2 That we can read back to them the testimony, but
3 that it will take about three hours worth of reading. If
4 they want that, we will do that. I'm not certain that we
5 would try to do that tonight. I may make the suggestion
6 that if we're going to do that, that we break for the
7 evening.
8 But tell them that if they want to narrow down what
9 it is they're wanting to hear, that we would be
10 interested in hearing what it is in particular they wish
11 to hear. And then send them out to see if, you know --
12 how they wish to proceed. And if they want to hear a
13 read back, hopefully, to give us a little bit more
14 guidance on what it is they want to hear.
15 The court reporter's have prepared it sufficient
16 that they can do a read back. But, like I say, it's
17 three hours worth. Obviously, they've got to break some
18 while they're reading it.
19 So,I mean, we're probably saying if we were to
20 start at seven o'clock with it. It would be ten o'clock
21 before we even finished a read back. I'm not sure I want
22 to have them start back deliberating at ten o'clock.
23 But, anyway, those are my thoughts. I'll hear from
24 y'all, what you think.
25 MR. FUCHS: That was actually exactly what my 787 1 thoughts were, sir. And I discussed with counsel.
2 THE COURT: Mr. way?
3 MR. WAY: Yeah, that -- Yes, Your Honor. That's
4 what we all came up with.
5 THE COURT: Okay. So I'm going to kind of make
6 those thoughts known to them. And it's going to be a
7 little free wheeling. I don't have a script here. And
8 then I'm going to send them back out to give us further
9 guidance as to what we want to do.
10 what I'll do is, before I send them back out, we'll
11 go sidebar. And if somebody has something additional you
12 want me to say to them, I'll give you the opportunity to
13 do so. Anybody have a problem with that procedure?
14 MR. FUCHS: No, sir.
15 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
16 THE COURT: All right. Let's have them.
17 Well, let me -- I mean, I'd assume everyone agrees
18 that it's not appropriate just to give them a transcript.
19 Are we in agreement on that?
20 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir.
21 MR. WAY: Yes, Your Honor, I'd agree with that.
22 THE COURT: All right. Let's have them in, please.
23 (Jury enters.)
24 THE COURT: Well,I know y'all have been working
25 hard. yeZeJ
1 Everybody be seated, please.
2 I received your note. And let me -- I don't want
3 anybody to say anything or react in any way. what -- I'm
4 going to explain some things to you. And then I'm going
5 to let you all step back out and send us a note as to,
6 you know, how you wish to proceed. But I want to make
7 sure there's a couple of things that you understand.
8 First, if your note is -- if what you mean by your
9 question is whether we can give you a transcript of the
10 testimony, the answer is no, we cannot give you a
11 transcript of the testimony. That's not legally --
12 First, it's not practically possible. But it's not
13 legally appropriate for us to send testimony back to the
14 jury room with you in a written transcript. The Courts
15 would say that we were emphasizing that testimony over
16 some other testimony. So that's not a possibility.
17 You say, is it possible to have the testimony read
18 back to you. It is possible to have the court reporters
19 read the testimony back to you. But you need to
20 understand it is about three hours of testimony. Court
21 reporters are human, they need to -- they can't read
22 straight for three hours. It takes -- it's going to take
23 some breaks. So, you know, we're probably talking about
24 three, three and a half, maybe four hours of reading it
25 back to you to get it to you. That is possible. And if 789 1 that's what you want, we will in all likelihood do that.
2 Couple of, you know, other options. If y'all are
3 able to narrow down if there's some particular part that
4 you were wanting to hear. If you could give us a part or
5 parts, frankly, that you want to hear, we can, you know,
6 speed things up a little bit by that.
7 Frankly, if you want to hear it all,I would not be
8 inclined -- I'm not making a final decision -- I would
9 not be inclined to do that tonight.
10 I would probably, if that's what you want to do,
11 break for the night and have you all come back in the
12 morning. Because it's 6:35 now, you know, we're talking
13 about seven o'clock before we get started on that. we're
14 talking about it being ten or eleven o'clock before we
15 finish reading to you. And then sending you back out to
16 deliberate further. I don't think that's fair to
17 anybody. So what we would probably do is break for the
18 night and come back in the morning.
19 So, anyway, I kind of just throw those things out
20 for you so you kind of understand the situation a little
21 bit better. obviously, we don't want to have you having
22 a discussion here in the courtroom. But let me talk to
23 the attorneys just a second, make sure they don't have
24 something else they want me to indicate.
25 (Sidebar had as follows): 790 1 THECOURT: Anybody have a problem with what I've
2 said so far?
3 MR.FUCHS: The only thingIwould say, Judge, is to
4 tell them that if you they do elect to just have a
5 portion read back, that we could probably accomplish that
6 this evening. And let them know that that's where --
7 MR. WAY: we don't know until they tell us what.
8 MR.FUCHS: Agreed. But he was giving them an idea.
9 THECOURT: IthinkIwas pretty clear.
10 MR.FUCHS: Okay.
11 THECOURT: We're not going to do that tonight. You
12 have objection to what I'm saying?
13 MR. WAY: No,sir.
14 MR.FUCHS: No,sir.
15 (Sidebar concluded.)
16 THECOURT: Iguess the attorney --Ithink I've
17 said this, butI'llbe a little clearer. Maybe if
18 there's some portion -- if we can narrow it down to a
19 smaller portion of the transcript, we may be able to do
20 that tonight. But whatIwas saying is, if we're going
21 to do all of it or most of it, it's probably too late to
22 launch into that tonight.
23 So what I'd like you to do is step back out, you
24 know, draft me a note as to how you wish to proceed and
25 we'll wait to hear from you. All right. 791 1 (Jury exits.)
2 THECOURT: Anybody have anything else at this
3 point?
4 MR.FUCHS: No,sir.
5 MR.WAY: No,sir.
6 THECOURT: All right. We'll wait to hear.
7 (A recess was had.)
8 THECOURT: Be seated, please, folks.
9 I'm informed we have a verdict. Iknow that this is
10 an emotional issue for many of the people involved in
11 this. But, you know, this jury was drafted. They didn't
12 volunteer to be here. Iknow they've worked hard and
13 done the best they can. I'd be very offended if anyone
14 were to react in front of the jury. There shouldn't be
15 any reaction at all.
16 If you don't feel like you can abide by that,I
17 would suggest you step out. Iwould be very offended if
18 somebody acts out in front of the jury. Soif you don't
19 feel like you can, with dignity, accept whatever is said
20 by the jury -- andIdon't know what that is,I'llbe
21 learning about it at the same time -- you would do
22 everybody a favor and just step out.
23 we ready for a jury?
24 MR.FUCHS: Yes, Your Honor.
25 MR.WAY: Yes, Your Honor. 792 1 THE COURT: All right. Let's have a jury, please.
2 (Jury enters.)
3 THE COURT: Ms. Idlett, I see you with the papers in
4 your hand. Are you our foreperson?
5 MS. IDLETT: Yes, sir.
6 THE COURT: Has the jury arrived at a verdict?
7 MS. IDLETT: Yes.
8 THE COURT: would you hand it to the bailiff,
9 please?
10 State of Florida versus Denise williams. we, the
11 jury, find as follows as to Count 1 of the indictment:
12 The defendant is guilty of conspiracy to commit
13 first -degree murder.
14 A5 to Count 2, We, the jury, find the defendant is
15 guilty of first -degree murder.
16 we, the jury, find as follows as to Count 3 of the
17 indictment: The defendant is guilty of accessory after
18 the fact of first -degree murder.
19 It's been dated and signed by the foreperson.
20 Ms. idlett, did I accurately reflect the verdict of the
21 jury?
22 MS. IDLETT: Yes.
23 THE COURT: Either side wish to have the jury
24 polled?
25 MR. WAY: Yes, Your Honor. 793 1 THE COURT: All right. Polling means that I need to
2 confirm with each of you that this is your individual
3 verdict, as well as the verdict of the jury as the whole.
4 I'll start with Juror No. 1. is this your verdict,
5 as well as the verdict of the jury as a whole?
6 JUROR NO. 1: Yes.
7 THE COURT: Number 2?
8 JUROR NO. 2: Yes.
9 THE COURT: Number 3?
10 JUROR NO. 3: It is.
11 THE COURT: Number 4?
12 JUROR NO. 4: Yes.
13 THE COURT: Number 5?
14 JUROR NO. 5: Yes.
15 THE COURT: Number 6?
16 JUROR NO. 6: Yes.
17 THE COURT: Number 7?
18 JUROR NO. 7: Yes.
19 THE COURT: Number 8?
20 JUROR NO. 8: Yes.
21 THE COURT: Number 9?
22 JUROR NO. 9: Yes, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: Number 10?
24 JUROR NO. 10: Yes.
25 THE COURT: Number 11? 794 1 JURORNO. 11: Yes.
2 THE COURT: Number 12?
3 JURORNO. 12: Yes, sir.
4 THE COURT: The jury has unanimously confirmed the
5 verdict. it appears to be in order. It will be filed.
6 This will conclude your service with us. we do
7 appreciate the time and the attention that you've given
8 us. Iknow this is a difficult duty, to come in and make
9 decision of this nature.
10 It's not appropriate for a judge to comment on a
11 verdict one way or another, so don't take my comments as
12 that. ButIdo appreciate the fact you came in and
13 worked hard, given us many hours of your time. For that,
14 we're appreciative.
15 Let me make you aware of one right that you have as
16 a juror. You have a right not to discuss your
17 deliberations. That doesn't mean you're prohibited from
18 talking about them. You can talk about them if you wish.
19 But it is possible someone would inquire of you. It's
20 possible they would inquire to find fault with what
21 you've done. You have every right to simply say, I'd
22 prefer not to talk about it.
23 AsIsay, that's your right. And if you desire to
24 talk, you're free to do so. we've taken up enough of
25 your time so we won't be in any long speeches. 795 1 Have you made arrangements to get them safely out of
2 the building, Deputy?
3 COURT DEPUTY: Yes, sir.
4 THE COURT: I will let you step out with the
5 deputies.
6 COURT DEPUTY: All rise for the jury.
7 THE COURT: I'll have the audience remain until the
8 jury's cleared the floor.
9 If y'all will let me know when you've cleared the
10 floor, please.
11 COURT DEPUTY: Yes, sir.
12 (Jury exits.)
13 THE COURT: All right. Everybody be seated.
14 Ms. williams is remanded to custody pending sentencing in
15 this matter. I know she's held without bond at this
16 point in time. Set a case management, Mr. Fuchs. I
17 think your next date is December 18th, next Tuesday.
18 MR. FUCHS: It will be Tuesday. Yes, Your Honor.
19 THE COURT: we'll set a case management date then.
20 Give you all a chance to discuss a sentencing date.
21 Does the defense request that we have a presentence
22 investigative report started?
23 MR. WAY: I would, Your Honor. And, respectfully,
24 is there any way we could do the case management perhaps
25 in early January versus -- 796 1 THE COURT: I mean, it's largely just to make sure
2 we have a date so y'all can start on getting the
3 sentencing date set.
4 MR. WAY: I'll find someone to cover for me.
5 THE COURT: What's that?
6 MR. WAY: I apologize. I scheduled something in
7 Jacksonville. But I'll make arrangements to get that
8 covered.
9 THE COURT: All right. And if you can communicate
10 with Mr. Fuchs, we'll work out a sentencing date.
11 MR. FUCHS: Yes, sir.
12 THE COURT: Madam Clerk, would you order a
13 presentence investigative report be ordered, please?
14 THE CLERK: Yes, sir.
15 THE COURT: Anything else from either side?
16 MR. WAY: Your Honor, may I waive Ms. Williams'
17 presence at the December 18th case management?
18 THE COURT: Certainly. Certainly. we don't need
19 her presence at the case management. we don't generally
20 have defendant's at case management. Although, I guess,
21 sometimes on the first -degree murder cases they do. So,
22 yeah, we'll waive her presence for then.
23 MR. WAY: Thank you, Your Honor.
24 THE COURT: All right. Anything else?
25 MR. FUCHS: No, Your Honor. 797 1 MR. WAY: No, Your Honor.
2 THE COURT: We'll be in recess.
3 (Proceedings in the matter concluded.)
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25 1 CERTI FICATE
2
3 STATE OF FLORIDA:
4 COUNTY OF LEON:
5 I, JOHANA KESTERSON, Official Court Reporter, do
6 hereby certify that the foregoing proceedings were taken
7 before me at the time and place therein designated; that my
8 shorthand notes were thereafter translated under my
9 supervision; and the foregoing pages are a true and correct
10 record of the aforesaid proceedings.
11 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am not a relative,
12 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor
13 relative or employee of such attorney or counsel, or
14 financially interested in the foregoing action.
15 DATED this 18th day of April, 2019. 16
17
18 ______L------Th 19 JQHANA KESTERSON OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER 20 LEON COUNTY COURTHOUSE TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA 32301 21
22
23
24
25 CERTIFICATE OF CLERK
STATE OF FLORIDA
COUNTY OF LEON
I, Gwen Marshall, Clerk and Comptroller Leon County, Florida, do hereby certify that the foregoing page(s) of the inclusive contains the record DENISE WILLIAMS V. STATE OF FLORIDA and is a true and correct recital of all such papers and proceedings in said cause as appears in the records and files in my office that have been directed to be included in said record pursuant to the Florida Rules of Appellate Procedure.
In Witness Whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and affixed the Seal of said MAY 2, 2019.
GWEN MARSHALL CLERK AND COMPTROLLER LEON COUNTY, FLORIDA
BY: SHELBY L. MILLER Shelby Miller, Deputy Clerk