Türkmeneli İşbirliği ve Kültür Vakfı AVRASYA İNCELEMELERİ MERKEZİ CENTER FOR EURASIAN STUDIES

TURKISH-ARMENIAN DIALOGUE

26 April 2014, İstanbul Turkish-Armenian Dialogue

İstanbul, 26 April 2014, The Marmara Hotel . years in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. As Ambassador to anumber of countries,his UN and the World Bankand the EU. worked asaconsultant for the OSCE, the U.S. Department of Defenseand State, the overlaps with the area covered by our institute, Center for Eurasian Studies. He has issues in the South Caucasus, Central Asia and the Asia Pacific region which actually He alsohaspublications from 1999 to 2008 covering political,economic andsecurity contributor to RadioFree Europe /RadioLiberty(RFE/RL) which we follow regularly. the NationalandInternational Studies (UPNIS) from 2009 to 2011and was aregular for Oxford Analytica. Hepreviously served as the Director of the Armenian Center for State University’s Center for European Studies (CES)andheisacontributinganalyst independent think-tank in Armenia. Healsoserves asa visiting professor at Yerevan two prominent key-note speakers. To my leftisRetired Ambassador Ömer EnginLütem, who has served over forty Mr.RegionalRichardis the founding director Studies ofthe Giragosian Center,an Today, we will start our sessionandat I the beginning, would like to introduce our (Ret.of AVİM)Director Ambassador, Alev KILIÇ [ 3 ]

TURKISH-ARMENIAN DIALOGUE TURKISH-ARMENIAN DIALOGUE Lütem then. can proceed.on whichwefurther the end of this session, draw someconclusions or recognize common denominators expecting bothsides that, will evaluate what hasbeensaidand whether we can,at positions to beexpressed here. We are ready to respect all views. But we are also getting to knoweach other’s views. So we do notexpectany restrictions in terms of with first starts and thisdialogue need dialogue reconciliation,we have to is that, dialogue issues. We think, this isalong overdue initiative and what we believe in AVİM guest froma AVİMArmenia totalkdirectlyhaving are onthe we that Turkish-Armenian Armenia andhow they affect Turkish-Armenian relations. Today, itis the first time as some angle, from somepoint we try to seehow they affect Turkey, how they affect issues, notall on the Armenian issuesbutrather on the Eurasian topics. However, from has been organizing what we callbrain-storming sessionsmonthly on anumber of since the years 2001and2002up till nowunintervened or unbroken. success storybecause there are very few institutions that have kept up their periodicals and History”. These three publicationsI would say, in Turkey’s conditions,represent a each other.“International Crimes necessarily thetranslationsof is periodical A third of Armenian Studies” inEnglish,“Ermeni Araştırmaları” in Turkish. They are not Turkey, andhasperiodicals that have beengoing on since2001and2002, the “Review Ambassador Lütemis the Honorary Chairman of the Center for Eurasian Studies. Armenia againbutinabroader scope.Imustalsomention,in this context, that Armenian Research Institute developed into the Center for Eurasian Studies, covering tank, Avrasya Stratejik Araştırmalar Merkezi (ASAM). ASAM was disbanded and the in very first time Turkey,a think-umbrella of under the Research the Institute Armenian last post was France, notbilateral,but UNESCO, the multi-lateral.He founded, for the So with these words,Mr.give I first word should Giragosian to you? Ambassador Today, we have great pleasure andprivilege to hostMr. Richard Giragosian. AVİM Today, AVİM is the majorinstitute that specializes on the Armenian studiesin [ 4 ] the war. problems that this war caused were solved by agreements and treaties concludedafter other question atleastinEurope which dates from the First World War and all the in internationalrelations. Today this question hasbecomeacentury-old; there isno some few boundaryconflictsinLatin America there isnotsuchan old question existing exceptastonished todiscover that, and issue with this was obligedtodeal I me, beyond Perinçek Case. about anotherimportant development, European Court of HumanRights verdict on Minister’s message, then to revert to the genocideallegationsand finally some words after a few words about the Armenian issueI will speakalittlebitabout the Prime very muchby hismessage on 1915events andchanged the topic of the agenda. So namely the genocideallegations.But then, our PrimeMinistersurprised everybody where to begin.Not to waste time, Iprepared apaper which focuses on the mainissue, Let’s begin with what the Armenian issueis. About 32-33 years ago, for the reasons The Armenian question, it’s ahuge one. That is why it’s always aproblem deciding (Ret. Ambassador, HonoraryPresident of AVİM) Ömer EnginLütem [ 5 ]

TURKISH-ARMENIAN DIALOGUE TURKISH-ARMENIAN DIALOGUE allegations isnotrealistic. genocide adopt the expecting thatthe Armenian will oneday So public opinion Turkish on Turkish public opinion andmostprobably in the future this situation will notchange. the Armenians views. For them the problem is that they do nothave areal influence scholars, former leftists who changedintoliberals,believe the contraryand support politicians, most of them with Kurdish origins with PKK tendency andsome Turkish scholars believe that the events of 1915 do notconstitutegenocide.Butaminority of Constitutional Court created amajor obstacle for the reconciliation process. historical issuesandalso their consequences. So, knowingly or not, the Armenian discussing the genocideissue would leadmostprobably to not discussing other Not historical facts. be obliged todiscussthe negotiations oneday,restartwill we to discussed rendered this sub-commissionuseless.Itisapity, becauseif we will beable decision of the Armenian Constitutional Court stating that the genocidecouldnotbe exists in the protocols sub-commission as“the on the historical dimension”. But the 2005 about the creation of ahistoricalcommission. You know that this commission neglect thoseoftheothers. and memories memory,mention only theirown they others. This isespecially importantbecause Armenians tend to have a one-sided suffering ofthe considerations the into should take means thatone which memory” “just about also speaks Minister Prime But the at thattime. of the Armenians died inhumane consequences; therefore, heconveys hiscondolences to the grandchildren the message was very timely. remembranceFirst ofthe a dayofWorldwho diedduringthe Armenians is April War, human or moralaspect of the Armenian problem neglectedup to nowby us. As 24 that it’s preventing the establishment of normalrelations between Armenia and Turkey. I think, to resolve this question once and for all taking especially intoconsideration Armenian problem. Butinpolitical field Armenian problem existsespecially since1965. Treaty. So on the legalground or from internationallawpoint of view, there isno the rights of the Armenians who stayin Turkey hasbeen determined by the Lausanne Turkey have been fixed by KarsandMoscow Treaties that bothconcludedin1921and First of all, I should say that the big majority ofthe and the big politicians say thatthe Turkish Turkish should I all, First of Now, I will speakabout the Turkish views on the genocide allegations. Another importantpoint of the messageis that itrepeats the Turkish proposal of The essence of the PrimeMinistermessageis that relocations of the Armenians had Now some words aboutPrimeMinister’s message. This messageaddresses the Because it’s a very old question and the Armenian claimsare also very old, it’s time, This is the same for the Armenian question. The frontiers between Armenia and [ 6 ] of relocation was not to destroy the Armenians asagroup by the following arguments: accepted inaninternationalcourt of justice. happened and Armenian genocideallegationshave practically nochance to be circumstances, there ispractically no way to prove that an Armenian genocide deductions, hearsay or even circumstantial evidence will notsuffice. Under these of all this intentionshouldbeproven beyond doubt andapproximation, presumptions, attention to the intention of destroying agiven group. The courtconcluded that first Court of Justice’s verdict concerningBosniaand Herzegovina case. The courtgave much strong reactions in Turkey, which could further strengthen the majority views. the Diasporaand the Armenian government for 2015commemorationscould trigger .Unlike what happenedin Nazi Germany, there were nospecialinstallations like 5. Notall the Armenians were relocated. A bookpublishedabout three monthsago, 4. In1915-1916about1660 Ottoman officials (militaryandcivilian), were put on 3. The Ottoman government took anumber of measures andallocatedsome funds 2. There isno document which shows that Ottoman government hasa genocidal 1. I canbriefly summarize why the Ottoman government’s intentin taking the decision To prove that anevent isgenocidebecameextremely difficult after the International There isanotherelement that one should take intoconsideration. The activities of gas chambersandcrematoriums to destroy the Armenians. annihilate the Armenians. not to Empirewas intention ofthe Ottoman show thatthe which evidences would nothave beensentinconcentrationscamps. This is one of the main it holocaust, would mean that the Jews livinginBerlin,Hamburg andMunich good securityconditionsin these provinces. If we apply this to the Jewish Edirne andinsome other smallerplaces were notrelocated. This is due to rather Armenian population. Armenians livingin the provinces of İstanbul,İzmirand Armenians were notrelocated: This isahugenumber, almost one quarter of the by American militaryhistorianEdward Ericksonstates that about350.000 genocide. is also one of the mainevidences that the relocations were notaimed to bea people were charged with prisonsentenceand67 were sentenced to death. This murder ofthe and maltreatment500 Armenians. Over crimes of trial for the if possible without causalities,butit was not often the case. so that the relocations operations should take place orderly andsmoothly and been proved that they were notauthentic. intent. As you knowsome fake telegrams were publishedafterwards butithas [ 7 ]

TURKISH-ARMENIAN DIALOGUE TURKISH-ARMENIAN DIALOGUE Armenian genocideclaimsand will beimportant for future discussion on that subject. Herzegovina cases. These findings of the HumanRights Court are weakening the Bosnia and Rwanda court decisions arefor case therecontrary tothe Jewish, Armenian is noconsensusamongscholars that the events of 1915are agenocide. Thirdly, is veryhappened to different Secondly,Holocaust. Armenians fromwhat that the there Rights hasexpressed some opinion on Firstly,this subject. itisstatedin the verdict but as the Swiss Court decision speaksaboutgenocide, the European Court of Human PerinçekRights onthe Case. issue genocide The verdictnot dealdirectlywith the does Lastly I would likeattention totheverdictEuropean todrawyourwould Human I of CourtLastly of If1.5million or even less Armenians really had died during andafter the 8. Religious or racialhatred is the basis of the genocideacts.Inall the genocides 7. Unlike what happenedinNazi Germany, there was nospecial organization 6. apparently with no tangible results. Armenia scholarslike Mr. Sarafian from Londonare searching for these graves people. However nomassgraves belonging to the Armenians are reported. Some causalities require 150massgraves of 10.000people or 300massgraves of 5000 relocations, there shouldhave beenseveral massgraves. For example1.5million 2-3 years prior to the relocation isagoodexample of this. toward the Armenians. The fact that an Armenian served as the Foreign Minister hatredhad feelings of neverEmpire etc. Muslims ofthe Ottoman and other Turks centuries. Bosnians were hatedbecause they becomeMuslims five centuriesago you can find Forthis element. Jews, anti-Semitism hasahistory of about ten regular troops in1915and fought againstRussianin the EasternFront. dealing with relocations; the famous “Teşkilât-I Mahsusa” was transformed to [ 8 ] relations asa foundation for reconciliation. process of normalization,more specifically opening borders andestablishing diplomatic much more complexand deeper. What we are engagedinis amuchmore immediate arises in terms of reconciliation which isamuchlonger process, perhapsgenerational, on what we callnormalization of relations. From our perspective, the genocide issue We do not work on the genocide; we do notengageingenocide issue. We are working somehow different. is and the approachnormalization, yet governments our on Turkish Armenia we are emphasizing on not thinking, tanks! you are neitherexpectingnorused to. Itisa view from Armenia, butasa think tank in you all that have come. To behonest, what I will bepresenting issomethingperhaps We are anindependent think-tank working with andadvisingboth the Armenian Thank you bothambassadors,but thank you AVİM for hostingus today and thank (FoundingRegional director Studies ofthe Center) Richard Giragosian [ 9 ]

TURKISH-ARMENIAN DIALOGUE TURKISH-ARMENIAN DIALOGUE missing and what opportunities have comeandgone. grassroots level from the bottom-up. A newrecognition has appeared of what we were getting to know one and other again,and we are buildingalmost an attraction on Despite the fact that we have closedborders, mindshave been opened and we are concept of “Armenian problem”; to behonest we don’t have to besuchaproblem. and diplomatic relations. And to behonest, what isalsoimportantis,I don’t share the borders neighbors, open behavior of minimum It’sbasic just theopposite. the Armenia, normalization of relations shouldnotbemisconstruedassomekind of areward to Azerbaijan on every step of the way. In other words, what we are seekingin the brief and consult learned isthistimeto fromhave mistakewe the But, region. in the do brother of the relationship hasgained too much when handed over what Ankara can Azerbaijan’s ability to veto or to say“no”. In other words, it isunfortunate that little that Turkish policy options in the broader Caucasus have become far too limited on be fair however, what we share with the Turkish government is the sense of frustration Azerbaijan’sand reactionfrankly tooverestimate Baku. Ankara’spersuade ability to To recognition of what was largely Turkey’s strategicmistake to underestimate learned” from the earlierround of the protocols. That “lessonlearned”is the more realistic implementation of the terms of the protocols andit isbased on a“lesson not comingback,especially to parliamentaryratification. What we focus on isamuch where we are today between Ankara and Yerevan, the protocols are dead and they are is nolongerlimited to the protocols. In other words, to be quite honest with you, process, normalization suspension ofthe call the would I what aftermath of in the now addressing the pastbutin dealing with the present. In fact, what we are working on or concession. of the current borders of the Republic of Turkey andnotany kind of territorial demand preconditionside. fromthe Armenian the issue of genociderecognition isnolongeraprerequisite or a demand or a It’s refreshing to have a willingness or political will of nopreconditions. In other words, Ankara today isreinforced by the Armenian government’s policy of nopreconditions. in the present based on ashared future. To behonest with you, what we’re working in of how we approach to 1915. manywithin and to government,in terms in termsofthe expression, Turkeyfreedom of goodwill tothe gestureforward.Armenian diaspora,tothe of a Armenian is This More importantis the fact that we have ashared future as well. What’s also From the Turkish side, what’s refreshing is the newlevel of sincerity, to not only The secondrefreshing element from the Armenian sideis the need of recognition But ingeneral, our approach is to becomeless of aprisoner of the pastand to work Prime MinisterErdoğan’s recent statement-whichI welcomed- creates steps [ 10 ] Turkey and Armenia have gone too far to gobackat this point. the fact that the borders are not open and we don’t have diplomatic relations, both normalization, in other words, even though the process itselfisnowsuspended.Despite development to energy etc. agreed to disagree, but work on anumber of other issues from regional trade and Bakü. Itisrather butit’squiet, an ongoing process, where over Nagorno-Karabakh we Stratejik Araştırmalar M Stratejik Araştırmalar call one andahalfeffort, working with Azerbaijan Diplomatic Academy and with to this normalizationprocess. Therefore, our think-tank isactively engagedin what we collaboration especially on Eurasianissues with AVİM. Political Trendsresearcharewilling todeepenour quite (GPOT)and Center (TESEV), Türkiye Ekonomi Politikaları Araştırma Vakfı (TEPAV) in Ankara, Global and thinktanks. institutes today the first inanewlevel of collaborationandcooperationbetweenresearch Other areas includemore people-to-peoplecontactand what Ihope this represents over nuclearsafetybecause of the Armenian nuclearpowerplantjustacross the border. ministries of energy of Turkey and Armenia, andperhaps on abroader regional context terms of civilaviation. Other areas of cooperationincludebetween example, the establishment of a Turkish Airlines office in Yerevan. More facilitation, in electricity from border.prior totheopeningof Turkeybe, for would Another selling Armenia perhaps, is, if youwill. border One prior toopeningofthe implemented, diplomatic engagement. not provoke or inflamein overreaction: the renewed attempt to restart and to resume rather delegatingthistothediaspora. and next year commemoration move by Armenia in turn, isactually to have less of astate-push for events of storm nextyear’sfromwhither the anniversary;to reciprocity, the Armenian the next year’s one hundredth years of anniversary. The approach from Turkey isbasically implement normalization of relations untilafterelectionsin Turkey anduntilafter new timetable from Ankara which isrealistic. Itis deferral, delay; itis waiting to important though, isin terms of what we are achieving diplomatically; Turkey hasa Prime MinisterErdoğan -mostrecently for the first time inhistory-assitting Turkish We also would like to highlighthow far we have comein Armenian-Turkish At the same time, we do believe that the Azerbaijan factor is also indirectlyessential also believe thatthe is we do Azerbaijan same time, factor At the Our think tank works actively with Türkiye Ekonomik ve Sosyal Etüdler Vakfı Having said that, we are working now on several ideasandsteps that maybe The Armenian government wants to sendagesture of good-will to the Turkish side, ə rk ə zi (SAM) which is the think-tank of President Aliyev in [ 11 ]

TURKISH-ARMENIAN DIALOGUE TURKISH-ARMENIAN DIALOGUE benefit andprofit first and foremost with an open border. Railway, telecommunications important for Armenia asan outlet etc. allows Russia to further isolateandmarginalize Georgia which would bemuchless of nationalinterest in terms of an open border between Armenia and Turkey is that it with Russianmanagementandcontrol. One of the two goals from Russian viewpoint Turkish border isseenby someinMoscowperhapsinevitable,better to have achieved the other reason isaboutRussiannationalinterests. The opening of the Armenian- member. It was from aRussianperspective, stagemanaged, but with Russianconsent, Armenia. There islittle danger of Armenia being drawn to NATO or becominganEU honestly itisso firmly entrenched in Armenia that there islittle danger of itlosing between Armenia and Turkey. Russiaallowedit to happen for one clearreason; here isinmany ways surprisingly in the earlierperiod of diplomatic engagement hopefully canberealigned. side, butusually, never at the same time. This is where the starshave alignedand willingness onthe sincerity onthe and the Armenian history recentfound side Turkish and willingness fortunately on bothsides, which israre. Because we have often in accused of betraying the concept of one nation two states.But there isanewsincerity in politics into oneofthedomestic Turkey,issue was PKK whereagenda the policy reaction, which was actually capable of returning the Armenian issue from a foreign unexpectedlynormalization diplomacy, was in termsofthe Azerbaijan’s strong very to Turkish domestic politicsright now. In terms of the Armenian issue, what happened constitutional courtruling, despite the temporary suspension, we are honestly hostage state level. in What isalsoimportant, terms of normalizationis, despite the foreign policy, this places the bilateralrelationship where itshouldbe on state-to- primary role innegotiatingand dealing with Turkey bilaterally on the statelevel. President Gül’s visit, with the normalizationprocess, Armenia was able to assume the initiativewords,with In other from back the thediaspora. and taking policy foreign ping-pong match with Turkey, butin terms of regaining the initiative for Armenian minute President Gül arrived, it was a victory for the Armenian side notinazero-sum “Ermenistan” (Armenia). Why this isespecially importantinmy opinion isbecause the Gül’s visitto Armenia. ever,As the coming to head of first state the Turkish maybe, A similarstatement, will benowexpectedevery April 24th. This alsoraisesexpectationsand willingly sets the standard higher on the Turkish side. Prime Ministerhasissuedastatement on this issue one day before the remembrance. Secondly, itis the Russian-owned sectors of the Armenian economy that would The other key factor, from AVİM’s point of view also,isRussia. What’s very important The diaspora was relegated to asecondaryrole. This is very In important. terms of But, what isalsointeresting as well isasecondhistoric Presidentfirst. Abdullah [ 12 ] and areorientation of Turkey. Europeans. In other words, this is very sincere recalculation of Turkish nationalinterest normalization with Armenia not to please the Americans andnot to appease it’s acommitment to anewreality. In other words, the Turkish sideisapproaching the new attitude from the Turkish sideand from the Armenian side.Butmore importantly, understanding the value. What we alsoseeas the reason is optimism because of the negotiations way duringthe looking theother been member,havebut the Americans seeking fromthe side. Turkish which is very unreliable and very expensive. So this issomething that Russiahasbeen airspace accessas do Azerbaijan and Georgia. Russianair force usesIranianairspace military link to itsbasein Armenia in terms of airspace. And currently, Turkey denies in Armenia. Because of the Georgian situation,Russiahasagreat challengeinits for air flight permission for Russia to use Turkish airspace to resupply the Russianbase process;protocol thereRussian-Turkish wereago, duringthe several years negotiations, efforts. Russian opposition. Wenormalization see themopposingthe don’t relations. What ismostinteresting inpost-Crimea, butalsono isnotRussiansupport, and energy specifically. And third, itisareflection on the deepening Russian-Turkish The Americans have beenlooking the other way. In other words, Turkey isaNATO The other real reason issomething that isnot well-known publicly in Turkey, but [ 13 ]

TURKISH-ARMENIAN DIALOGUE TURKISH-ARMENIAN DIALOGUE Armenian relations although they couldinfluence them. Naturally it’s possible to test does notgetusanywhere. Thank you. embrace or agree with my friend andcolleague’s view of 1915,but one-word litmus terms of demographics andacross the politicalspectrum. That is also why Imaynot the constituency for normalization.Bothgeographically, within Turkey andbutalsoin Partreach.broaden ofourthink-tank’s anxious to we’reis to opinion that well as efforts the bothsidesare usually a vocal minority. Itisactually the silent majority of the public diaspora. Itisexaggeratedas well. Butat times we seesometimesloudest voices on perception ofthreatparanoia or or forceexaggerated froman the is side, there challenged, ithasbeenchanged. This isimportant for bothsides. Just as on the Turkish with you, beingraisedin diaspora, the Turkey of mythology, the narrative hasbeen more coming to Turkey as tourists are seeinganew face of anewcountry. To behonest for eitherside to goback from this point. that there isnot yet aconclusion.But we have comeso far, that this is very difficult is the significantstepin the right direction andinconclusion.Itisimportant to note creative diplomacy. Although, I don’t yet seezero-problems with zero-neighbors. This documents, in other words, there ismuchmore flexibility, muchmore innovative and citizenship for peoplelike me. They actually have the documents, Ottoman era in Switzerland. points negotiating They offer is oneofthe this Meaning that, Ankara. Turkish diasporan asmuch Armenian diasporan. Mypointisactually understoodin diaspora. In other words, asmy Grandfather is from Ihave Elazığ, the right to bea it’sjust theopposite. In controlfact, thediaspora. push to button to something that Yerevan, the Armenian government hasnosecret hotline or magic counterproductive for all of us. This isabilateralsource of engagement. Parliament to use the genocideissue to hit Turkey over the head. That is future. Weneed the American don’t CongressFrenchParliament, orthe theSwiss Americans or the EU.In fact, this is our shared history, shared present andshared and to mediateand to provide their good offices. But what we don’t needis the may have needed this -westill do-, to hold our handsbetween Armenia and Turkey, Americans are not directly involved and the Europeans are not directly involved. We Some of the issuesraisedby Mr. Giragosian are not directly related to the Turkish- Ömer EnginLütem: In evenfact, if you notice the diaspora, the diaspora itselfischanging.More and In many ways, Iam diasporan, Iamasmuch Turkish diaspora asmuch Armenian One shouldunderstand the Armenian diaspora in terms of notamonolith,anditis Well, at the same time, Iam optimistic that itcan work, precisely because the [ 14 ] the two countries,afternormalizingrelations, instead of startingamuchneeded allegations, remains andcontinues to poisonrelations. I do not want to imagine that both sidesexchange ambassadors.Butin that case, the mainissue,i.e.genocide prevailed. historical dimension, sub-commission on exception of the negotiations of the protocols andgenerally speaking, the Armenian view, with the reconciliation.by be followed should was discussedduring This question normalization distinction betweennormalizationandreconciliation, andisadvocating that relations are normalized formally, it will notbeeasy to sustain them. that subjectI do not think it will bepossible to normalize our relations; or if the and soemotionalproblem. But without reaching atleastakind of understanding on genocide allegations.Iknowit’s extremely difficult to try to solve this so deep-rooted important issueis to resolve the Armenian problem with itsmaincomponent, the between the two countries.Iagree but that normalizationisimportant, for us the most that for Mr. Giragosian the mostimportantproblem is the normalization of relations time andIamafraid will lastmaybeuntil tomorrow. much will takeextremelycomplicated, the discussions are too as they but discuss them It’s very easy to normalizeina formal way the relations: We open the borders and The second difference isrelated to the first one. Mr. Giragosian ismakinga So to bebriefI will touch upon two differences of views between ourselves. Isee [ 15 ]

TURKISH-ARMENIAN DIALOGUE TURKISH-ARMENIAN DIALOGUE important with the genocide. Myunpopular view is,asimportant as the genocideissue, human rights, democracy andeconomic development of the country shouldbeequally to becomemore the center of gravity, more the center of identity for the diaspora or issue, isa weak sense of identity. What needs to changeis that Armenia actually needs other words, eating Anatolian foods. What isalsointeresting, other than the genocide kebap”.“şişcame together. Everyeating we otherdayoftheyear,In was identity our speaking the language very well, perhapsashared identitybased on April 24th where Kardashian, asbad they are, with the other Armenian Americans for example. Kim likes of bringing together the issue was theonlyIt issue. was thatone Armenia the events of 1915. And asa diasporan, myto behonest, identity untilmoving to population in Armenia proper and for the diaspora, much of our identityisshapedby genocide isanidentityissue.In other words, for over 65percent of the Armenian Armenian critics fear. But, what isalsoimportant to understand that the Armenian have to start from anassumption that there was nogenocide which is what the mandate or the members of suchahistoricalsub-commission.It doesn’t necessarily mission orthe knowing the without idea criticize the prematurecondemn or to sub-commission. Butmaybenot for your reason, in other words, Iargue that itis too genocide. Karabakh ortothe Armenian in the protocols. There isnoreference in the protocols whatsoever either to Nagorno- what’s the mostimportant thing isnotjust what’s in the protocols but what is“not” from that door andmake somesubstantialprogress on this issue? try to have atleastanunderstanding what to do together in that area. reach, we shouldnot wait for the normalization taking placeandshouldimmediately Armenia relations would beeasy. But for the reconciliation, which ismuch difficult to has muchchance to berealized. Azerbaijani relations I do not think that normalization,and therefore reconciliation, reconciliation process. Even in that case without significant developments on Armenian very difficult to achieve, is to normalizerelations andat the same time, to starta it’salthough everycontinue toquarrel day.logical thingtodo, cooperation, Sothe In other words, we allcame together as Armenians, in the United States, without In inmyfact, very unpopular view in Armenia, I defend the sectionabouthistorical What isimportantinhere, first if we lookclosely to protocols that we have signed, Richard Giragosian: The PrimeMinister’s messageis opening the door for reconciliation. Why notenter If there will beprogress in Armenian-Azerbaijani relations, normalization of Turkey- [ 16 ] in dealing with today’s Turkey itisincreasingly lessrelevant for me. historian, Iamnotan Ottoman scholarandnor do Iclaim to be. And at the same time about the genocide.Becauseactually we don’t work on the genocide,Iamnota is why inmy writings, inmy presentations bothin Armenia andin Turkey, Irarely talk are nowcrowding out the militants, on bothsides. We need to actually foster this. That Armenia, isactually more embraced asit once was, in terms of the moderate voices can sayitisgreatly freer andmore expanded.For the samereason, what Isayin cooperation with media outlets in Turkey for over a decade. What Icansayandhow am a former columnist for the Turkish Newsweek.Ihave been doing interviewsand right direction, especially demographically. To Imeasured behonest, itpersonally. I not ready. But we are moving in the same direction and we are bothmoving in the in terms of compromise discourse of changingnarrative, andmany in Turkey too are Because from our side, we are notready for the demands that reconciliation requires, steps of cooperation of engagementasa foundation of normalization for reconciliation. of engagement. there are many importantissuesand we do nothave to overlook in terms of aprocess We do nothave to wait big for “the victory” I first. would prefer buildingsmaller [ 17 ]

TURKISH-ARMENIAN DIALOGUE TURKISH-ARMENIAN DIALOGUE assimilated. Ihave nothing against assimilation,itisjust that when you are assimilated [moderate] peopleare not organized atalland these peopleare increasingly bigger [than the number of extremist demonstrators] I totally agree, but these of French citizens of Armenian heritage who don’t share the [nationalist] views ismuch low,number is very the participating todemonstrations number people, the number of France and the US, inFrance, the manpower of Armenian nationalistsisreducing, the the Armenian Weekly, France Arménie etc, this is taken literally]. To continue with war against Turkey [WhenIsay war, I don’t exaggerate,in their mind,itis war -Imean least some of them, survival of the mainDiasporastructure isconditional on pursuing or atleastmakinganattempt for reconciliation. I will say further the interest of at be, that isadvocating views similar to yours, who issincerely working for reconciliation could 1915 its opinionon Franceand whateverUS, examples of will takeI the Diaspora, You mention the silentmajority. Regardless, there isnostrong structure in the not about1915. You sayMr. Giragosian that the Diasporaisnotmonolithic. That’s true. be acceptedby bothsides whatever you think about1915.My doctoral thesis will be will notmentionRussia—andIregret I it. will try to propose anangle, that Ihope,could First of all,I would like to thank you, Mr. Kılıç,because you mentionedRussiaandI Maxime Gauin: Questions & Answers [ 18 ] different angle. Thank you.” official report of the evacuationcommission.Ijust wanted to bringaproposition to a migration] would be threatened to death by the Dashnaks,Hunchaks,etc.” Itis the Armenians to Syria but we can’tbecauseany people who attempt to prevent [themass Cilicia told the French chiefnegotiator, “OK you want us to block the immigration of representativecommunities of withdrawal of all the Cilicia, theofficial Christian of villages”. And the Greek army destroyed everything in1922. And during the French refuges- itisnot Turkish sources- say that “the Greek army forced us to leave our example- inbothFrench and American archives, testimonies of Greek and Armenian and that, the Greek withdrawal from western Anatolia, andI found –just to give an the French withdrawal from the cities.I was the first to write anacademicpaper on 1916 whatever you call that. You have to lookat the Turkish war of independenceand disappearance of Armenian communitiesin Anatolia isnot only due to events of 1915- once again,Ihopeitcouldbeaccepted whatever you think about1915, the of the ANCA. Armenian National Committee of America isstillstrong and there isnobodyin front organization. And in the US, itis different butitisnotbetter, in the sense that the ButI maybe not. don’t agree with violence, racism,etc.[against Turks].” There isno you cannotgo on the street andsay“I feel Armenian. I think maybeit was genocide, The lastremark ifIcanspeakalittlebitmore, and maybeitisjustanideaIsubmit, [ 19 ]

TURKISH-ARMENIAN DIALOGUE TURKISH-ARMENIAN DIALOGUE obvious from the outside. So in this line of argument, on the one hand we have we hand Turkeyargument, onthe one line of obviousin this from theoutside.So of independence for the Armenian state, the government. Today, itmay notseem very is very concerned, very worried about the independenceissue.I think there isaproblem (reasonbir” hasacommonpath),andI think anotherline of argument is that Armenia being too deterministic for you, but you knowin Turkish we have asaying:“aklın yolu borders. opening of process, and which seesalsoincludes the Karabakhproblem asan obstacle to the particular thought which was assumedandpromoted by the American view on this Thus this process includes,most of all, the opening of borders. And I think this isa very these processes are increasing the need for Turkish-Armenian reconciliation process. customs unionand today the crisisin Ukraine. Ihave anotherline of argument that on Russia, which isincreasing. We are allaware of Armenia’s decision to joinEurasian with the begins Armenian dependence and toyou this itself is thequestion conclusion of this storm,but what I derived from itis that there isaline of argument. Your that you used this term “there was astorm comingin2015”. We are very well aware that there isanincremental approach to reconciliation or normalization. And Inoticed So you cansee that there isaline of argument developing here. Itmightbeseenas Actually when you were talking about these steps taken by Armenia, Iunderstand Aslan YavuzŞir: [ 20 ] borders of Turkey. In other words, fully ruling out asapolicy of preconditions, territorial one, main,majorpublicconcession was reiterating three times, recognition of current reactionbywithin thediaspora. is the fearing Armenia or important thing The other goodwill from the Armenian side.Itprefers to keep that lowprofile or secret. Perhaps, in terms of being creative andinnovative, in terms of highlighting the gestures of we have two interesting trends. One is the Armenian government cannotmatch Turkey, much more stable,andinmany aspects,more democratic. From the Armenian side, Armenia and Turkey. Turkey ismuchmore muchstronger confident, economically, already been taking stepsand Armenia did not? steps, open borders etc.,andgain from this initiative, considering the fact that we’ve itself,actually.argue that question and still think Whyis theonetotakeTurkey doyou deterministic line of argument.But you mayadd to Armenian view, so, this is the to loseanything and they want to gaineverything by noconcessions. So this is very of stepsand Armenia isnotand Armenia isinahard situation,but they do not want Pragmatically speaking, we are reaching to the conclusion that Turkey is taking alot foundation properties. returnnow. ofthe is the Armenian some time another thing been discussed for And has which is the “citizenship”issue which was only talked out loudinrecent weeks, butit reference to internationallaw. recognized genocideresolutions in their parliamentsand did this politically, not with just about twentyofthem states, only 190 awarearea,are thatoutof you verywell called “denialist” arguments. So we have this advantage. Thus, in the international so- i.e. onthe Rights ontheexpression,Europeanfreedomby Humanof the Court of for Turkey, andnota direct threat. speaking- Turkey hasnothing to losein this relation. Russiaisamanageablepartner Karabakh and others. Actually, Iamnotaware of any stepsandI think -pragmatically did not take any steps,not with regard to bilateralrelations, nor with the Nagorno- Minister’s message. So, Icanatleastcount3steps.Inreturn, we see Armenia, which followed in the 2000sby football diplomacy. And today, we have the Turkish Prime recognition of the independent Armenian statein1990s.It was a vital step. And it was which introduces some of the first initiatives for reconciliation, the first of which is the Briefly, what we see, first of all,isingeneral the asymmetry of the relationship, Richard Giragosian: So we are taking like five, sixstepsandnothinginreturn from Armenian side. Turkey isalsokeeping two things inmind for the sake of future relations, first of Turkey hasanotherstronghold in Turkish–Armenian relations, namely the decision [ 21 ]

TURKISH-ARMENIAN DIALOGUE TURKISH-ARMENIAN DIALOGUE will deconstruct the siege mentality of the Armenians, it will deconstructthe it mentality ofthe Armenians, siege will deconstructthe Armenian and Turkish normalization will help Azerbaijan. Because,in other words, it against the threat of war or resumed military hostilities.But that is why Iargue, Advisory Committee (BESAC) aboutresolutions or diplomatically, warning Azerbaijan Turkey have beencooperating.Behind the scenes, whether itisinBasicEnergy Sciences years agoandhave notbeenallowedback. But, what isinteresting is that, Turkish military advisors were dismissed from Azerbaijan we see,isnumber one investor in Turkey. Beyond energy, they are goinginto media. In many in fact, Azerbaijan, actually resent Turkish influence.In other words, Azerbaijan after all,inreality, is the number one armsprovider to both Armenia and Azerbaijan. reliance especially on today’s Russia, which knowsnolimitandrestraint. Russia Nagorno-Karabakh. unresolvedconflict of impediment tothe realactually the is lack ofdemocracy words,In other anymoreexcept thediaspora. isolation when borders never opened and the threat isinsignificanceand no one cares Armenia isnot from Turkey andnoteven from Azerbaijan; the threat to Armenia is frustrated at the lack of progress andregarding Armenia you are right. The threat to lot soonercompared to the several decades that Iamsometimes,like But, of past. you, toward the next five years or even the coming decade. Which isstillalot faster anda be quick andnever supposed to beeasy. In other words, that is why we are looking different than yours. Iargue that this process of engagement was never supposed to despite halfanhour we have come,it’s difficult. And my opinion though, isalittle normalize italsoshows this abnormalsituation.But, that, despite even my optimism, words of Davutoğlu, the current situationisabnormal. What we all trying to do is to and establishing diplomatic relations. Right or wrong, that’s the perception. In the points crossingborderborder or In termsofopeningthe makemove. the has to first In court. other words, the Armenian government position with U.S. backingis, Turkey as Hillary Clinton hassaid, despite those moves that you listed, the ballisin Turkey’s I am only reporting the perception. Which you mustknow as that, Washington chairs, But more needs to be done even in terms of public diplomacy. knowledge. public repercussionsnot arebecause ofthe Much ofthis side. the Armenian terms of inspecting what was on board as well asintelligencesharing on the PKKby shipments into Syria were specifically sent through Turkey with the cooperationin Armenian side,in terms of itssmallgestures. For example,allhumanitarianaid and itmaysoundin today’s modern havingsaid world. But, that, you are right, the claims, which for the Armenia sideisabig deal. In other words, isalarger concession Secondly, what isalsoimportant isinmany ways diplomatically, Armenia and Having said that, Armenia shouldlearn to mistrustRussiamuchmore. There is over The second observation is the Armenian government’s perception. Right or wrong, [ 22 ] Russian leadingmedia or mainstream media was involved there. There was even talk because Iamsure you know what happenedincase of Kessab recently. Surprisingly, wow!” opportunity to do something from the Armenian side,saying“That’s progress guys, Karabakh are increasingly lessandmuchmore creative in terms of givingusan in return. But Ankara, to itscredit, is very creative. Itsso-called demands over Nagorno- tells usprivately it’s allabout timing. We give ussomething needsomething, to justify The problem isnolonger the itis fulfilment, the timing. That is why the Turkish side shortcoming. kind of anyI think away of heap diplomaticdividend, far Turkeywould relations issomething very easy to do, noteven requiring protocols and to behonest, step, maybeIammore American in this but opening the border, establishing diplomatic or Yerevan. Itis Azerbaijan, itisBaku. And, in terms of why Turkey should take the first hurt the process anditprovided a very goodpretext. But the real obstacle isnot Ankara President a favor. Inreality their opinion was unwelcomed as well asnotbinding.It because thought, they are allcompliantandsubordinate. They are doing the Armenian the Armenian President and to issuean opinion that isnotlegally binding. They court isnotindependent, they (thecourt) wanted to [what they thought] would please approved the protocols. Unfortunately for the Armenian government, because the Court isrequired by the constitution to eitherapprove or overturn the protocols. It Constitutional Court rulingisnotlegally binding.In fact, the Armenian Constitutional constitutional court, with allrespect, is the pretext. Because, to behonest, the engagement was actually suspendedby the Turkish sidenot the Armenian side. The side? the other the ballin our court? While we are taking alot of stepsandhavingnoresponds from is the reason behindit? Just talking pragmatically, why should Turkey act first? Why is Regarding Azerbaijan - Armenia as well. Ihave more than answered to behonest. compromise. in termsof demonization oftheother,help will ofthe it and Turk I would like to addsomething on manageableRussia-Turkey relations argument, Haykak Arshamyan: My honestanswer that -which you won’t like- isbecause the protocol process, the Richard Giragosian: Actually no one cananswer this specific question: why should Turkey act first? What Aslan YavuzŞir: [ 23 ]

TURKISH-ARMENIAN DIALOGUE TURKISH-ARMENIAN DIALOGUE would be the country to provide, beinga Customs Union member, suchaconnection. got any borders with any EUcountries?” Then, the answer was again,“No.” But, Turkey the members. The Russiancounterpartmostprobably musthave retorted, “Have you in the Customs Union or the Eurasian Union because we have noborders with any of example, when President Sargsyan went to Moscowandsaid we cannotseeany benefit been discussing today the basicsand the necessity of establishinggoodrelations. For independence of Armenia. for reconciliation for abetter future for Armenia in let’sthe past, saysince the mentioned, the arms which were sold to Azerbaijan is worth 3-4billion dollars. playing gamesbetween Turkey, Armenia and Azerbaijan, andasMr. Giragosian for itspurposes.I don’t think that Russiacanbemanageable for Turkey. They are always about?” So Russiacanalways useeither Armenia-Turkish conflict or just their relations there already startedsaying “No that, one was killed there, what are you talking as reality. Only later on, seriouspeople-politicians, from media- who were there were alot of smartpeople,educatedpeople who got this provocation message provocation andmany peoplein Armenia started to believe Eventhat. on Facebook of anewgenocideinKessab. We allknow that no one was killed there. It was Russian Indeed, had the chance for abetter future of things been taken, we would nothave chance a miss It transpiresRepublic that west did and the Armenians, the of Armenia Alev Kılıç: [ 24 ] Armenians are completely fixated on 1915.Itshapes their perceptions of Turks. How getting this notion that [ImeanIlived in Canada somet Armenians there as well], way. Ikeep following news written by Armenians to seehow they view us.Ikeep people in Armenia fearing that Russiaisliterally beginning to own the entire country. world. So wouldn’t they have sabotagesuchreconciliation? Ikeep reading newsabout Armenia reconciles with Turkey, itcreates anotheravenue for interaction with the this becausesuchreconciliation would break Armenia’s dependence on Russia. Once they have every reason to sabotage Turkey’s reconciliation with Armenia? Iamasking that Russiais very confidentaboutitsentrenched positionin Armenia. So wouldn’t option but to strictly attach to Russia. the nearabroad for Russia,becausenow they feel that Armenia needhave no other be lessinterested init. Armenia nowisa very good trump card for the Caucasus and would Russia now Because, relations. normalize the reconcile,more to even difficultto the Republic of Armenia. So, this isalostchance. Today, what we seeis,ithasbecome in Turkey observed any reconciliation efforts or moves either on part of the West or independence neitherby the West norby the Republic of Armenia. Because we never Turkey would be the bridge, the nexus. This hasnotbeenperceived since the I have another question. I don’t want to keep bringingup1915,soI will askit this I have a question that isaboutexactly that topic. Iam aspecialistat AVİM. You said Mehmet Oğuzhan Tulun: [ 25 ]

TURKISH-ARMENIAN DIALOGUE TURKISH-ARMENIAN DIALOGUE our case,itis only one area my But, pointis, we support. the real threat to Armenia there are areas of public policy we support the government and others we In don’t. developments. The role of a think-tank like AVİM, like usisactually, just to be objective, cannot support the government inany other area. Itis only Armenia-Turkey arewordsin other deplorable. Weexistence ofopposition in Armenia orthe rights human lack ofdemocracy,words,state of in other the the issue, is theonly it with you, close cooperationandinsupport of the Armenian government. I But, will behonest unfortunately. at But, the same time, Ireiterate this, is the one issue where we work in entrenched even with anormalization of relations between Armenia and Turkey, there isno threat to Russianstrength. In fact, dependence will justbe that formally they already own out right. And there islittle danger of Armenia leaving.In other words it isprofit for the energy, railway and the other sector of the Armenian economy that diplomatic relations ingeneralare notseensuchabreakthrough. And for the Russians, Russian sideregarding normalization.Mainly, becauseagain, open borders and at the same time, we are stillnotseeingany obstacles or the hesitations from the shift away from pro-Armenian position on Nagorno-Karabakh which isinteresting. But, with Azerbaijan andincrease, becauseit islack of leverage with Azerbaijan. Itmayeven Armenia hasallowedit to startanew trend over the past two years. Improve relations other words, itshowssomething. To be honest what we seeis,Russia’s strength in and Armenia would be out of the loop.In other words, itisanexaggerated fear, butin will nolongermatterinsomepoint. Turkey andMoscow will negotiateabout Armenia, Moscow. The symbolismissad.Because, one fear many have in Armenia is that Armenia Gül was madenot from Yerevan, but while he was sittingin the Presidential Office in protocol process, Ihate to admititbutit’s a fact that Sargsyan’s invitation to Abdullah but he didn’t want to communicate with me. Turk andheliterally ranaway. I was knowninmy circle of friends asagoodperson, he didn’t knowI was a Turk, we conversed like gentlemen. Then he found out I was a specifically had this kind of anepisode.Imetaman, didn’t knowhe was Armenian, such aperception? we even have the kind of power to break suchaperception, butisitpossible to break their back on us.Iexperienced this; Ikeep hearingstoriesabout this. I don’t knowif such opinionstheyturn hear minute they because the across tothem, idea get that it it doesn’t meanIamracist, doesn’t meanIhate Armenians? Howare we going to can we getitacross to them justbecauseI that; don’t agree with their notion of 1915, What we seeisactually just the opposite. In terms of Russia in the beginning, the Richard Giragosian: As a Turk [asahumanbeing],I feel compelled to communicate with them. I [ 26 ] I amin Taksim, runninginto Armenian diasporans visiting Turkey as tourists, going to anytimeshockedalways am I in terms ofthe evenArmenian diaspora, But the diaspora. different view, there isa disparity growing within Armenia andamong Armenians in To behonest, Armenian perception isalready changing. And you will noticea very your burden? In other words, maybeitis our burden. Maybeitisup to us to change. does notcarryaracist or negationistattitude.Isitpossible? their interpretation of the historicalevents of 1915 does not mean beingracist, that it Caucasian stabilityandcooperation. to acommonunderstanding. We need to strive for bilateral ties as well as for South preventexactly,havecome to that], wherewe this we [Giragosian: then normalization increasingly the RussianandEurasiansituationmuchless1915. meeting we can take itasastartingpoint. hope with understand, whatwewould that, this try I is whatwe to work on. this with normalization counter that. in orderTurkey to because of the situation,hasactually enhancedandincreased the importance of of the Russians.Buthavingsaid that the goodnewsis this; the backlashin Armenia, of the relationship. The problem is the asymmetryin the relationship and the behavior becomes nothingmore than aRussiangarrisonstate. again, isolationandinsignificance, to putitpolitely. The rude threat is Armenia You maynotagree with what Iamabout to say. The first is, who says that this is Richard Giragosian: across thatourdisagreementmessage with the Armenians on Weget need tothe Yes, but1915isusedasa vehicle, asaninstrument to undermineany possible Alev Kılıç: It is true, from ananalytical perspective, as think-tanks, the real issuehere is Richard Giragosian: The very lastsentenceisa very promising and very encouraging one. The backlash, Alev Kılıç: Russia-Armenia relationship isnotseenas the problem, even by me.Itis the terms [ 27 ]

TURKISH-ARMENIAN DIALOGUE TURKISH-ARMENIAN DIALOGUE such contacts to serve a dialogue. our two think-tanks we can think of improvising ways and means to initiate more of more initiate to means and ways improvising of think can think-tankswe two our constituency andunderstandeach other even on points where we disagree. words, my point is, [from a professional perspective] we need to actually broaden the In other am. converts.preachingI pro-Armenian more to the Cengizfor than is Aktar contacts our limit to need not do we this; is was Cengizpoint issue Aktar.My this on important thing is to give a Turkish example. The one person I worked with in Brussels in Armenia that could do likewise? being accused of treason. are part take do who those and grounds country third on even not discussion, open the perception, our From Armenian think-tanks, countries. intellectuals are discouraged to take any share, any two part in any the between think-tanks of interaction diasporan, secondbecause of my views. Ottawa or Montreal [as Oğuzhan mentioned],maybe that’sin their problem too. Armenians the from reaction of kind that get you if time, same the at But have. It is almost the same kind of normalcy that we need with Azerbaijan which we do not propermoreno is it big a deal when havewe into coming journalists Turkish Yerevan. Armenia for that think also I time, same the at But human. and realistic more much Eastern Turkey and it is much less about “Whooo, Turks are going to eat us!” It is now Thank you very much for accepting and coming to this meeting. Maybe, between Maybe, meeting. this to coming and accepting for much veryyou Thank Well, I can find other people; there are many think-tanks in Armenia. The other The Armenia. in think-tanks many are there people; other find can I Well, I appreciate that you are open to such contacts. Wouldmoresuch think-tanks be areto appreciatethereopen youthat I an of establishment the be would happen wish we what and see not do we What But don’t forget that I am not the mainstream; first by moving to Armenia as Armenia to moving by first mainstream; the not am I that forget don’t But A R A ic l l e e ha v v

K K r d ıl ıl ıç ıç

G : : ir a g o s ia n : [ 28 ] contribute in whatever smallmanner to such developments. Thank you very much. ourthink-tanks,hope that, Mr.I can right direction. yours andours, Giragosian we do notchallenge the fact that normalizationandreconciliation are stepsin the efforts or on tit-for-tat differences. So, we should find a way for betterrelations and states canlive inconstanthate or enmity, consuming their potentials on zero sum thought butalsoa feeling of optimism for the future. I think, neitherpeoplenor the this hasindeedbeen very, I dare say forward-looking-meeting givingusmuch food for to our key-note speakers Mr. Richard Giragosian and Ambassador Ömer Lütem.I think that there would notbeany signatures. Armenia. We shouldnotexpectsomethingspectacular. Ihave the justa feeling, feeling three years he coming, would like to signanything with Turkey, ifitisnotin favor of presidency,his in thetwoor not thinkduring I do 2009-2010 that criticized during Armenian concerns, there issomethingsimilar. President Sargsyan was somuch it isnotsuitable to prepare anotherpiece of paper on the official side. As far as the expect something official. We cango on speaking to each let’sother etc.But, say that year, there will be the centennial. Turkey will besomuch criticized that, we shouldnot I thank you all for participating this meetingand of courseIrefer first and foremost Alev Kılıç: Next year will notbe very suitable for reconciliation or normalization. Why? Next Ömer EnginLütem: [ 29 ]

TURKISH-ARMENIAN DIALOGUE TURKISH-ARMENIAN DIALOGUE [ 30 ] [ 31 ]

TURKISH-ARMENIAN DIALOGUE .