Fifth Session- Thirty-Sixth Legislature

of the

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba

DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS

Official Report (Hansard)

Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker

Vol. XLIX No. 16- 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, April 28 1999

ISSN 0542-5492 MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY - Thirty-Sixth Legislature

Member Constituency Political Affiliation

ASHTON, Steve Thompson N.D.P. BARRETT, Becky Wellington N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUAY, Louise, Hon. Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary Concordia N.D.P. DOWNEY, James Arthur-Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Albert Steinbach P.C. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside P.C. EVANS, Clif Interlake N.D.P. EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East N.D.P. FAURSCHOU, David Portage Ia Prairie P.C. FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen Springfield P.C. FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley N.D.P. GJLLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa P.C. BELWER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. - KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LA THLIN, Oscar The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns N.D.P. MALOWAY,Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek P.C. McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane Osborne N.D.P. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia P.C. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn St. James N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East P.C. NEWMAN, David, Hon. Riel l>.c. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PITURA, Frank, Hon. Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren,Hon. Lac du Bonnet P.C. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. River Heights P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER,Jack, Bon. Niakwa P.C. RENDER, Shirley, Hon. St. Vital P.C. ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Gladstone P.C. SALE, Tim Crescentwood N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Broadway N.D.P. STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park P.C. STRUTIIERS, Stan Dauphin N.D.P. SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye P.C. TOEWS, Vic, Hon. Rossmere P.C. TWEED, Mervin,Hon. Turtle Mountain P.C. VODREY, Rosemary,Hon. Fort Garry P.C. - WOWCIIUK, Rosano Swan River N.D.P. Vacant St. Boniface 693

LEGISLATNE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Wednesday, April 28, 1999

The House met at 1:30 p.m. My question to the minister: is this negligent, casual treatment of such a traumatic, PRAYERS sinister crime the minister's standard fo r prosecuting child abuse cases? ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Introduction of Guests Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I have been apprised of the facts surrounding that Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, particular situation, and of course it was a would like to draw the attention of all difficult situation. I do not want to get into any honourable members to the public gallery where particular names in case there are any ongoing we have this afternoon fifteen Grade 5 to 12 proceedings or, in fact, if there was an order of students from Parkview School under the prohibition in respect of mentioning any names, direction of Mr. Harvey Walker, Mr. Alford but I do want to point out that that was a Wollman and Mr. Kenny Wollman. This school particularly difficultcase in many respects. As I is located in the constituency of the honourable understand it, it involved a crime that had been Minister ofNatural Resources (Mr. Cummings). committed many, many years ago, and I can appreciate the point of view of the prosecutors in We also have seventeen Grades 9 to 12 these cases in their efforts to obtain a conviction students from Windy Bay School under the so that the public is in fact protected. I under­ direction of Mr. Greg Lee. This school is stand that the prosecutors did in fact their very located in the constituency of the honourable best in this particular case to ensure that the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. public interest in terms of public safety was met. Tweed). If the member has any specific issues with respect to how that decision was taken, I am On behalf of all honourable members, I certain that the members of my department who welcome you this afternoon. made the decision would be prepared to sit down and discuss that with him. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD * (1335)

Sexual Offenders Mr. Mackintosh: A simple question to the Plea Bargaining minister: why is the minister, in this Legislature today, defending this plea bargain, this arrange­ Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam ment entered into with this sex offender? Why? Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice. Beginning at age 12, Eva Rutherford Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, my job as the [phonetic] was molested, raped, exploited by Attorney General and the Minister of Justice is Harold Welsh, who was in his late 30s at the to ensure that justice is in fact done within the time, and when she eventually discloses this to laws that we have that guide the conduct of the the justice system, the minister's department plea prosecutor. If this member is suggesting that our bargained a deal allowing Welsh to go about his prosecutors somehow broke the law or broke job fo r almost a year and a half before facing some kind of a standard that is not acceptable, justice, without so much as checking this sex why does he not say it directly instead of again offender's contention that he was essential to a making these kinds of broad allegations against research project and that he would be in a hard-working members of my department who prison-like environment. He was not essential; only have the best interests of the people of he wined and dined and gained prestige. Manitoba at heart? 694 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 1999

Mr. Mackintosh: Would this minister please Mr Toews: Well, Madam Speaker, there was a try to understand the torment caused to this question that was put to me in respect of policy. victim, understand the wrong message given by I answered the issue in respect of policy. In this bargain based on untested, unconfirmed respect of the specific case, I said, rather than information given by a sex offender? Would he make general, vague accusations about the not admit that this is not some isolated incident conduct of the case-and notice he does not bring but like cases like the Bauder babysitter case, a any details of the types of decisions that had to plea bargain that the minister again defended, be made along the way. Then I invited the like cases I brought in here on Monday? There member to sit down with members of my is a pattern of child sexual abuse cases that are department as to why they made the decisions not being vigorously prosecuted? they did. I support that kind of interaction between the member and members of my Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, my prosecutors department who are responsible fo r the prosecute thousands of cases, and I know how prosecution. So I will fac ilitate that kind of difficultthese types of cases are, especially cases meeting, and I made that very clear in answer to that involve children who have been sexually his question. abused many, many years ago. If this member, fo r one moment, thinks that it is easy for the Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point police or if he thinks that it is easy fo r the of order, I would agree with the honourable prosecutors to make the tough decisions that member for Kildonan. I would remind the they have to do, why does he not go back to law honourable Minister of Justice to not provoke school? Why does he not go see what it takes to debate when responding to a question. prosecute a case? Workers Compensation I can tell you, Madam Speaker, that our Survivor Pensions police forces and our- Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Speaker, - Madam Speaker: Order, please. today is the internationally recognized day of mourning fo r those workers who have been injured or killed on the job. We not only mourn Point of Order fo r the workers killed, but we fight fo r the living, including survivors of workers who were killed Mr. Dave Chomiak (K.ildonan): Madam on the job. Speaker, I would like to on a point of order cite Beauchesne's 417: the answers to questions Today we are joined by some 20 members should be as brief as possible, deal with the of the WCB Widows Action Group who have matter raised and should not provoke debate. joined us and are sitting here in the gallery today. These widows and many others have had I listened to all three questions very their survivor pensions terminated by the carefully by the member fo r St. Johns in which Workers Compensation Board due to he asked the minister specific questions relating remarriage, which is contrary to the Manitoba to a prosecution and/or a botched prosecution Human Rights Code and is contrary to the with respect to the Department of Justice, and on Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. all three occasions the minister has insulted the member, the minister has chosen to not answer I want to ask- the question. I ask you to call the minister to order as you called the member to order when he Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would the posed the question. Ask him to either answer honourable member fo r Transcona please pose the question as posed and not provoke debate; his question now? Madam Speaker, or sit down. Mr. Reid: Thank you, Madam Speaker. For all Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of those acting premiers over there, I will pose the Justice, on the same point of order. question to them. - April 28, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 695

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The member pensions fo r some of the widows will require a was asked to pose his question now, not debate further amendment of The Workers with the members opposite. Compensation Act to restore those pensions. Why in 11 years has your government not acted * (1340) on that information?

Mr. Reid: I want to ask the Acting Premier­ Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question whoever that person is today-to please explain has been put. to the widows why for 11 years this government and the Workers Compensation Board have Mr. Radcliffe: Madam Speaker, I think it is treated widows as ping-pong balls, bounce back futile and perhaps even fe ckless to go back and and fo rth, refusing to deal with the restoration of try to effect revisionist thinking on the issue. I widows' pensions, as was recommended by the think that we are looking at a problem today, and King· commission report in May of 1987. I will we have an issue that has been brought to my table a copy of that recommendation that this office today. I am prepared to tell this Chamber, government did not act on when they amended my colleagues in this Chamber and the the act in 1992. individuals in question that I am prepared to look at this matter today and come up with a Hon. Mike Radcliffe (Minister of Labour): solution today. Madam Speaker, I thank the honourable member fo r Transcona fo r this opportunity to answer that To go back and be recriminatory, I think question and to speak through this Chamber to solves no positive issue. the individuals in question. Mr. Reid: I want to ask the same minister, I do not want to cast any aspersions upon Madam Speaker, since he refused to give this any government, whether it was the honourable commitment to the widows when he met with member's party that was in power in 1985 or them earlier- anybody else who was in power in 1985, as to why this issue was or was not appropriately Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would addressed in 1985. The law up till 1985 was remind the honourable member fo r Transcona, very clear, and in the values and times of the there is no-[interjection] Would the honourable pre- 1985 pre-Charter issue, if anybody remarried member please pose his question now? as a widow after having lost a partner or widower having lost a partner, then they Mr. Reid: Will the Minister of Labour, who automatically lost their compensation rights. refused to act on the request of the widows some Post-1985, there was basically a means test years ago when they made this request and as instituted, and in 1992 the regime was changed recently as this year, Madam Speaker, indicate if again to issue compensation over a term of all of the widows whose pensions were years. terminated will be reinstated back to the date of marriage or to the date of Charter compliance, I can tell this Chamber that I have met with and is he prepared to bring fo rward legislation in the widows. I have taken legal counsel on this this sitting of the Legislature before the coming issue, and we are at the present time provincial general election to restore those reconsidering the entire issue. I, in fact, had an widows' pension benefits? opportunity to speak to these individuals today at the Union Centre to share this information with Mr. Radcliffe: Madam Speaker, I take great them. pleasure in advising the member fo r Transcona that at the present time the Workers Mr. Reid: I want to ask the Acting Premier or Compensation Board have made a reserve of a the Minister of Labour to explain why, in 11 significant amount of money in order to address years, his government has not brought fo rward some of the deficiencies of the program that was legislation to restore these widows' pensions, instituted under a previous administration, and since the WCB states that the restoration of these the Workers Compensation Board adjudicators 696 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 1999 will be working through the group of individuals My supplementary, Madam Speaker, is: I in question. wonder if the Acting Premier can explain how the Winnipeg Health Authority ends up being As to my honourable colleague's second part part of this advertising campaign, but when it is to his question, at this point in time I can tell convenient fo r them they say it is arm's length. honourable colleagues that what was initially What is it? Are they arm's length, or when it posed to me within the last month was, in fact, came to this, are they a direct part of this not a matter of compassion, not a matter of propaganda campaign by the Conservative need-and that is a direct quote from the government? interview that I had with the individuals in question-they posed a Charter argument. I have Mr. Cummings: Obviously, they believe that satisfied myself that, in fact, there is no merit to the people of this province deserve the facts, and the Charter argument that is posed; however, I they have undertaken to make sure that they are think that there is a human issue which provided with that. supervenes the allegations that were made or the request that was made, and it is to that human Mr. Ashton: My final question is in regard to issue and the human need that we are rising to whether there is any policy-and I want to ask the meet. Acting Premier if when the then Minister of Finance, now Minister of Health (Mr. * (1345) Stefanson), said that he had staff working on this issue, we are undertaking it, we take it very Government Advertising seriously-that was in 1994-I am just wondering Guidelines when we are ever going to get a policy on Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): I would like to advertising from this government, or is it going table a copy of a Freedom of Info rmation request to be conveniently after the next election when that we received that details the close to once again we have seen them spending $500,000 worth of advertising put in place by $500,000 of the people's money fo r what should - this government in a desperate attempt to prop have been paid fo r by the Conservative Party? up its political fo rtunes. I would like to ask the Acting Premier if they can explain to Mr. Cummings: Madam Speaker, obviously Manitobans why they saw fit to spend this close the member fo r Thompson takes some umbrage to $500,000 instead of putting it where it is when he realizes that the people of Manitoba, needed, fixing ourhealth care system, not trying when they are apprised of the full facts, to prop up this fai ling government. understand the changes that are underway in health care and understand the requirements of Hon. Glen Cummings (Acting Premier): any responsible government to deal with that and Madam Speaker, it has to be with his tongue to keep them informed. firmly clenched in his cheek that the member opposite asks that question, considering the Organized Crime record of his government and the public dollars Joint Forces Intelligence Unit that were spent in promotions during the sad time that they were in government. The people Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Madam of Manitoba have a right to know the correct Speaker, a question to the Minister of Justice. information and the progress that is being made Yesterday the minister held a press conference in health care in this problem and that we are about a joint police fo rce's intelligent unit on dealing with actively. I suggest that he should gangs. It is regrettab le that the province known not hurt himself by biting on his tongue when he as the gang capital of Canada is one of the last to asks a question like that. get a joint fo rces unit, and even now it is still talk. Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, the only people hurting are the people of Manitoba who want My question to the minister is: would he money spent on health care, not on politically admit that there is no agreement with any motivated ads. municipal police fo rces, with any First Nations - April 28, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 697 police forces, with any Canada Customs, with ensures that working together with the municipal the city of Winnipeg police? What kind of a police forces in implementing this plan on an joint operation is one police force? ongoing basis is taken care of. I know that both the assistant commissioner and the chief of Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Winnipeg and other chiefs will work together on Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I wanted the implementation of a plan. to avoid the mistakes that his counterparts the

NDP government in B.C. made when their joint * (1350) forces task force fell apart. What we want to do in this particular case is to work with the RCMP, Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister admit which is our provincial police force, and give that this answer and his announcement could in them the assurance that we are committed to an fact harm a co-operative effort on gangs, that ongoing joint forces intelligence unit, not simply yesterday's announcement was a photo op for the on an operational basis but an ongoing basis. purposes of an election to make it look like the The agreement between the RCMP, as our government was concerned about a problem it provincial police force indicates, is that they helped create? now continue to work with the other municipal police forces who in fact have drafted a plan for Mr. Toews: Well, Madam Speaker, it was the consideration of the department and for interesting that it was the RCMP that proposed further discussion between police forces, and the establishment of this ongoing unit and that very importantly the city councils that fund the we had discussions on that. I said to the RCMP, municipal police forces. bring forward a plan. The RCMP consulted with other municipal police forces. They brought Mr. Mackintosh: Would the minister, who also forward a plan and as the Justice minister of the knows there is no funding arrangement or province of Manitoba, on behalf of the govern­ commitment, there is no agreement on a time ment of Manitoba and the people of Manitoba, limit, there is no technology deal, there is no said to the RCMP, this is a good direction to be guarantee of anything, explain to Manitobans going in. We want this kind of a unit in why the chiefs of police of the Winnipeg Police Manitoba. Please work together with all of the Service and Brandon police, who comprise the heads of CISM, the Criminal Intelligence executive of the Criminal Intelligence Service of Service of Manitoba, and the municipal police Manitoba, who put forward this proposal, were forces to see that this becomes a reality. neither invited nor, more importantly, were not signatories to this agreement, especially when Gaming Control Commission Winnipeg- Independence

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): My question has been put. is for the Minister responsible for Manitoba Lotteries. Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, again the member seems to misunderstand the role of the RCMP Recently, Madam Speaker, it was brought to vis-a-vis the provincial government in this my attention by a constituent that the Manitoba province. The RCMP is our provincial police Gaming Control Commission released the '97-98 force. The province does not run municipal annual report. As all members of this Chamber police forces, and that is a very clear know, this particular commission is supposed to understanding that I have with the mayors of the be independent, in particular independent of communities and indeed the mayor of Winnipeg Manitoba Lotteries Corporation. Yet, if you and the specific councillor who is responsible read the annual report, you will find that the directly for the police. So my role as Minister of Manitoba Lotteries Corporation has indeed given Justice is to ensure that the police force that we a $240,000 grant to the commission. My fund, the RCMP, $53 million a year, fulfills the question to the minister is: what does that grant mandate of public safety and works in the best do to the so-called independence of the Gaming interests of all Manitobans. Some of that then Commission? 698 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 1999

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister charged with of charitable licensed events has gone down the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries considerably year over year. Is the minister Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, as a new aware of the gaming policy that this government minister coming into this portfolio, it would be has brought in and the impact it has had on my understanding that that is the means by charitable organizations' abilities to be able to which the Gaming Commission is funded in its generate funds? operation. It is not, I believe, a conditional grant made in which the Lotteries Commission would * (1355) have discretion, but rather it is a means of ensuring that the Gaming Control-at least that is Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister charged with my understanding. I will endeavour to confirm the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries that with my staff and report back to the Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, having in member. one way or another, as an MLA, over a decade, been involved with the lottery issues, I can Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, the question remember, when I first stood for public office, to the minister responsible is for him to one of the issues had been actually the recognize that there is a budget of $1.5 million, government getting involved-and it had been a of which they got a $240,000 donation. previous administration-in gaming and lotteries and taking over the role of an organization that Madam Speaker: Question. used to be called, I think, Total Community Involvement that had initially the responsibility Mr. Lamoureux: My question to the minister for dealing with all of these ticket sales and is: was it not the government's policy that the things for community organizations. Govern­ Gaming Commission be independent of ment has taken over because the interest in the Manitoba Lotteries, and if in fact that is the case, public in other various forms of gaming and then why are they receiving money from the lottery tickets and like consumers looking for Manitoba Lotteries? new products has certainly grown. I think in all - jurisdictions we have seen an increasing role. Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, the member is correct in his observation that the purpose of the In terms of supporting community Gaming Control Commission is to be organizations, a fairly sizeable portion of dollars independent, is not part of the Lotteries or revenues from the Lotteries Corporation does Commission. In fact, it answers to this go back into the communities through things like Assembly via a different minister, that being the the Community Places Program, through a Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs variety of grants to communities that are made (Mrs. Render). There is quite likely a very out of that fund. So there is a return to logical reason for that. It could be the pension communities. benefits, one of my colleagues outlines. It could be part of that establishment of their funding or Officeof the Fire Commissioner operation. Fire Code Inspections-Schools I will endeavour to get an answer for the member as to the specifics of that matter, but I Hon. Mike Radcliffe (Minister of Labour): can assure him it is not meant in any way by the Madam Speaker, I would like to rise at this point Lotteries Commission to be some sort of an and respond to a question that was put to the inducement to produce decisions that the honourable First Minister (Mr. Filmon) Lotteries Corporation would desire. yesterday which he took as notice and directed the Minister of Labour to return. It was a Gaming Policy question levelled from the member for Impact on Charitable Organizations Transcona (Mr. Reid), where I quote from the record: "Will the Premier explain why the Fire Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Commissioner's office can provide services to Speaker, a final supplementary. In the annual Libya, to Cuba, to Chile, to Brazil, to Argentina, - report, it indicates very clearly that the number but they cannot ensure that the inspections of our April 28, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 699 very schools to which our children go every would like to remind all honourable members single day are inspected by the Fire that when one is either posing a question or Commissioner's office? Is this the way you responding to a question, the words "to tell the operate your government?" That was the truth" have been ruled unparliamentary on question. numerous, numerous occasions. So I would suggest the honourable member pick and choose Madam Speaker, I can assure the member his words very carefully. opposite that there has been no relationship with Libya and our Fire Commissioner's office. Mr. Radcliffe: Madam Speaker, I wanted to There has been no relationship with Argentina continue to advise my honourable colleague that and our Fire Commissioner's office. In fact, if there is a request from a local fire department what the Fire Commissioner's office did was to the Fire Commissioner's office for any sort of gather together some excess fire equipment and support, this support is furnished free of charge. send.it off to South America as charity. Further, There is no charge for a fire inspection, for a I mentioned yesterday that the Fire building inspection, on account of fire if it Commissioner's office is an education resource, comes from a local fire department or from a and there were some members who came from municipality. So I am sure that my honourable Cuba, paid for by the Cuban government, to our colleague will be enlightened with the truth of Fire Commissioner's office for instruction, for this matter, and I would ask him to take this to knowledge, for improvement so that they could heart. take our knowledge from Manitoba back and help their people in the Caribbean. Madam Speaker, The Fire Prevention Act has never mandated that the Fire Commissioner's Madam Speaker, in addition, the Fire office do these sorts of fire inspections. They do Commissioner's office will, on request from any it as a matter of courtesy. They do it because municipality or any facility, do an inspection. If they are a centre for knowledge. They are a there is a request by the facility, there will be a resource in our province, and they should be charge. congratulated and lauded rather than criticized Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Speaker, by members opposite. I take umbrage at the the member just indicated and confirmed what aspersions levelled by the member opposite to we had said yesterday, that, in fact, the Fire the Fire Commissioner's office on this issue. Commissioner's office is inspecting the schools, the daycares, the personal care homes and other * (1400) facilities involving the public on a fee-for­ service or a profit basis. He just confirmed our Mr. Reid: Then, Madam Speaker, I want to ask comments of yesterday. the minister because yesterday the concern was for the safety of the staff and the schoolchildren I want to ask this minister then: who is that attend our schools in every part of this telling the truth? The previous Minister of province- Labour, now Minister of Finance (Mr. Gilleshammer), when he said in Estimates last Madam Speaker: Order, please. year-and I will quote the date, Thursday, April 16, 1998, when the minister said that there are Mr. Reid: I want to ask the minister to efforts on behalf of the Fire Commissioner's confirm- office to contract to the services that I mentioned yesterday, including the very countries that the Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would the minister just referenced: Brazil, Chile, Argen­ honourable member please pose his question. tina, Cuba and others. Mr. Reid: I want to ask the minister then: Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. which one is being straight up with Manitobans­ the minister who says that he will provide these Madam Speaker: Order, please. Prior to services for free, or the former Minister of recognizing the honourable Minister of Labour, I Labour, now Minister of Finance, who said on 700 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 1999

Wednesday, May 21, '97, "The objective, of At least nine First Nations have a direct course, is to balance the budget and even turn a interest and need for economic development on profit if we can."? the east side of Lake Winnipeg. A draft agree­ ment with Pine Falls Paper Company would Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education increase cutting rates by 700,000 cubic metres and Training): Madam Speaker, I think that extending north of Berens River and could have certainly there are aspects of the honourable long-term economic implications for these member's question that should be viewed by all bands; yet they have been told the agreement is of us in a very serious way. All public schools to be signed with or without their input. are constructed or renovated according to applicable standards and codes of the province I would like to table a copy of the or local government authority. After that, the memorandum of understanding, unsigned ongoing safety and maintenance considerations memorandum, and also a letter from Chief Louis accruing to schools, including fire inspections, Young of the Bloodvein First Nation. In Chief become the responsibility of the owners of the Young's letter he indicates that the signing of the buildings, that being the school divisions or memorandum of understanding without our districts, and their administrative offices. direct participation would be a breach of our constitutional rights. School divisions and districts, as owners of permanent school buildings and some portable Can the minister indicate what the legal structures, are also the insured parties with implications for the project are if First Nations respect to fire insurance and other related are not brought to the table? policies. Consequently, it will be up to the school boards, doubtless in consultation with the Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural MAST, Manitoba Association of School Resources): Madam Speaker, the member Trustees, to establish-[interjection] Well, brings forward an issue that is quite troublesome Madam Speaker, I thought the honourable and one which perhaps he has been a little bit ill­ member for Transcona was serious about the informed on because, in the most recent meeting safety of our children when he asked the that occurred, the company that now owns Pine question. I am serious about the safety of our Falls Paper was interested in having signatories children. I am trying to share some information which would include equity investors which with my colleagues in this House. would include the First Nations communities who were prepared to become involved in the There should, of course, be established a future operations on the east side of the lake. mechanism and a schedule for inspections of The meeting did not reach a conclusion, and schools and for fire safety planning generally. there was no meeting of the minds on where they MAST currently recommends that all public wanted to go with this. schools be inspected annually by a competent qualified fire inspector, and there is some discussion about raising the standards to two I hope the member would be broad-minded inspections per year. My department, in enough to appreciate the fact that Pine Falls, as response-and I thank the honourable member for they were traditionally known, is making a Transcona for this-to this issue is following this sincere and ongoing effort to co-operate and to up with the MAST to find out the present status involve the First Nations and the northern of their recommendation. communities on that side of the lake because undoubtedly this is very important for their Pine Falls Paper Company future and the development of that opportunity Development-Impact on First Nations they need to be part of.

Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Mr. Struthers: Madam Speaker, this Speaker, my question is for the Minister of government's track record of including First Natural Resources. Nations is not a good one. April 28, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 701

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The of these communities prepared to be co­ honourable member was recognized for a investors; they want to be equity holders, they supplementary question to which there should be want to participate, but there are other no preamble. communities that have not yet reached that agreement, and we are going to have to work Mr. Struthers: Will the minister indicate what with them. the timelines are for the signing of this * (1410) memorandum and whether the signing will be conditional on First Nations participation in the Education System memorandum? Physical Education Curriculum Mr. Cummings: Madam Speaker, I think the Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam member for Dauphin-and I would hope Speaker, I want to raise again with the everyone else who is concerned about this­ government its contribution to the growing would appreciate that there are no deadlines, that problem of inactive and unfit young people in this is a development opportunity that the people our province. The Minister of Education may on the east side of the lake in conjunction with know that his home school division in Brandon this major pulp and paper company, along with a has approved a reduction of physical education possibility for sawmill operations, can change and health teaching time that is far below the and move forward in the future opportunities curriculum recommendation guideline of 180 within that area. We have set no deadlines. We minutes per six-day cycle. Grades 1 to 6 will are not dictating the conditions of an agreement. only receive 90 minutes or half the We are saying, even in the development of the recommended amounts in the curriculum. Given road on that side, which is very much tied to the that we have been waiting three years for a new opportunity for harvesting of forest for either curriculum which would help reverse this trend lumber or pulp or a combination of the two, that and clarify what is expected in Manitoba in we intend to seek and receive co-operation and physical education and health education, I want sign-off in those areas so that we are not seen to to ask the minister why his department is be treading in areas where we would be planning to release the long-awaited new unwelcome or where the opportunity is not curriculum next October rather than prior to the wanted. It is intended to be a process that would beginning of the school year in September so we be very inclusive. do not go another year in Manitoba in this vacuum of no curriculum in health and physical Mr. Struthers: Does the minister not education? understand, given recent court decisions like Delgamuukw on the west coast and others, that Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education he puts at risk the opportunities and the jobs that and Training): Madam Speaker, it is he talks about if he continues to leave out First interesting the honourable member should raise Nations and ignore their constitutional concerns? that. I was just in the grocery store last weekend getting some groceries and happened to discuss Mr. Cummings: Madam Speaker, I am this very matter with one of our teachers in the disappointed and frankly hurt that the member Brandon School Division. I listened to what this would indicate that he believes we would teacher had to say and suggested that is a good proceed to put deadlines and force development topic for discussion at the local level. My in this area without significant input and without concern is also in response to the honourable opportunity for the communities. That is one of member's question that whatever it is that is the basic tenets of a potential agreement: the mandated by the provincial authority, it is communities are part of it, do have an something that needs to be carried out, and I opportunity for a buy-in. In fact, the problem is, think what I am hearing in the honourable as the member knows full well, and I believe he member's question is that maybe that is not is trying to exploit the differences between the happening. I do need to address that if that is the communities themselves on what they see for allegation. I would certainly want to take that up their future opportunity, because there are some with the school division. 702 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 1999

With respect to the second part of the MEMBERS' STATEMENTS - honourable member's question, I need to get some sense from her, I suppose, where it is the Day of Mourning-Workplace Accidents opposition wants us to go. I am not always sure I want to go where they want me to go, I am Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Madam Speaker, pretty certain I do not want to go where they at noon today I was pleased to join with many want to take me, but I would at least like to others in our annual walk along Broadway. I understand where it is they want me to go, and joined with the Winnipeg Labour Council and that is something that is very unclear from the Winnipeg Boys and Girls Club in talking to honourable members opposite. many Winnipeggers about the importance of the Day of Mourning. During our walk we handed out Day of Mourning lapel stickers and spoke to Ms. Cerilli: Madam Speaker, I am going to members of the public about the significance of table a study from the University of Winnipeg the day. Of course, as many members know, the for the minister that shows that over 50 percent symbol displayed on the sticker is the of the grades in Manitoba are below the 180 internationally recognized canary in a cage, minutes for phys ed and health education that is which represents the emergency warning system required. used by 19th Century miners.

I want to ask the minister: is he aware of This day, April 28, was set aside to this, and how will he ensure that the new recognize the sacrifices that Canadians have curriculum, which is going to recommend 180 made to earn a living for themselves and their minutes of phys ed and has a number of families. Eighty-five years ago, in 1914, the first outcomes requiring 180 minutes of instruction, comprehensive Workers Compensation Act in how is that curriculum going to be met when Canada received third reading in the Ontario some schools are only teaching for 60 minutes? Legislature. Rod Murphy, the former M.P. for Churchill, was instrumental in having the -- Parliament of Canada recognize this day as the Mr. McCrae: I am sure, in due course when Day of Mourning, and we appreciate Mr. this curriculum does come forward, that the Murphy's efforts. issues raised in the honourable member's question will no doubt be addressed. The reason Each and every year of the past 10 years, I say that is the curriculum that we have been over one million Canadians suffered workplace developing in this province has been the result of injuries. Every year 1 ,000 Canadians die from an extremely inclusive process. occupational diseases. One worker in 15 is injured on the job each year. On average, three I hear honourable members, for example, Canadian workers are killed every single complaining about various aspects of working day. Manitoba working people are a curriculum, and I have to remind them that it is part of this statistical information. Last year Manitoba teachers building Manitoba curriculum 45,999 Manitobans sustained workplace injuries in Manitoba for Manitoba students, and we will and filed claims with the Compensation Board, be guided by that input. We will be assisted an increase of 5 percent over the previous year. greatly by that input. But I do believe that if Last year, 22 Manitobans unfortunately lost their there are any shortcomings in the present lives in workplace accidents or through situation, and I am not saying there are or are not occupationally caused diseases. because so often we are led to believe certain things in this place that do not really turn out to In the last 10 years, Madam Speaker, 211 be that way. I simply say that, as we implement Manitobans have died in workplace accidents, the curriculum, I am sure some of the concerns and their survivors had filed claims with the the honourable member has will be addressed. Compensation Board. Many more claims were rejected by the Compensation Board over the Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has same period. Widows of survivors continue to expired. have their pensions terminated by this - April 28, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 703 government contrary to, we believe, the Cathy Keenan Manitoba Human Rights Code and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Madam Speaker, I rise to pay tribute to Cathy Keenan, If as many police officers had died in the 1999 recipient of the Exceptional Early line of duty, Madam Speaker, in their daily Childhood Award given by the Manitoba Child work, there would have been a moral outrage, Care Association conference last April 24 at the but when a single worker dies it gathers little Ramada Marlborough Inn here in Winnipeg. more than a small column in the daily The conference was also addressed by the newspaper. honourable Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), who graciously acknowledged my Madam Speaker, we mourn for the dead; we presence there- fight for the living. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Crescentwood, on a Mr. Denis Rocan (Gladstone): April 28 is point of order. designated as a national Day of Mourning for those who have been injured or who have died as Point of Order a result of workplace accidents in Canada. We all agree that even one injury or fatality in the Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam workplace is too many, and we must work to Speaker, I cannot hear what the member is prevent these tragedies from happening in the saying on a very important statement honouring future. someone. I wonder if you could call the members to order. Every life is precious and all injuries are preventable. Any workplace injury or fatality is Madam Speaker: I agree that the honourable a serious matter and of great concern. We have member for Crescentwood indeed does have a all been touched by a workplace incident, point of order. I also was experiencing difficulty whether the person injured is old or young, male hearing the honourable member for Broadway. or female, worked as a farmer, a logger, a miner, on construction, on the assembly line or in some I would ask that all those having private other line of work. From each incident that meetings do so in the loge or outside the occurs, whether it results in serious injury or not, Chamber. we must learn the cause so that we can prevent * * * similar accidents from taking place. Mr. Santos: It is written: Suffer the little In the last decade there have been significant children, and forbid them not to come unto me; reductions in accident rates and traumatic fatality for such is the kingdom of Heaven. rates in Manitoba. Employers and workers have been working in partnership to ensure that Quality health care is an investment in our workplaces become safer. This partnership must common future. Manitoba used to be a leader in continue. As long as any worker is injured or child care support in the 1980s. Regrettably, this killed in a workplace accident, there is room for has not kept pace during the past decade under improvement. We must remain diligent in the current government. In 1989, Manitoba continuing to make Manitoba's workplaces even child care fees were, on average, the lowest in safer and healthier. Injury and death in the the entire country. Child care fees now have workplace bring pain and suffering to co­ nearly doubled since then. workers, families and friends. This Day of Mourninggives all of us a chance to consider the Today, many daycare centres are facing serious nature of work and to consider how we serious challenges. Low wages, lack of funding can all work towards the goal of eliminating all make it difficult to keep and find qualified workplace accidents. Thank you. daycare workers. Operating grants do not always reflect the actual cost of operations. * (1420) Affordability, accessibility, quality care should 704 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 1999

be the chief aim of a good provincial govern­ statesman and current president of the Czech - ment. Paying lip service to child care is not the Republic, is in our city today. Mr. Havel is one same thing as actively supporting child care in of the great figures of our time, and it is indeed this province. an honour for Manitobans that he has come to our province in order to receive an honorary The New Democratic Party has a much degree. For his literary endeavours and for his better vision for children and parents. We listen political ideals and morality, Havel is inter­ to parents; we listen to child care workers. Our nationally admired. His opposition to political task force on child care travelled across the totalitarianism is well known as is his willing­ province to see first-hand what needs to be done. ness to be imprisoned for the causes of freedom, We understand the importance of quality child justice and morality. care. We are committed to acting on this issue. From his activities during the Prague spring Palliative Care Expansion in 1968 to his leadership during the Velvet Revolution of 1989 and to his election as Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): president of Czechoslovakia and later the Czech Madam Speaker, I am proud to stand in this Republic, Havel has demonstrated the behaviour House today and talk about a recent initiative of and high moral standards politicians should this government. Our government has strive to achieve. announced $3 million in funding for the expansion of palliative care services over a two­ Events of recent months in Manitoba have year period. This will help the terminally ill, altered the perception that many of our citizens whether in hospital or home settings, to be eased have of politicians. We as politicians and as into the final stages of life with respect and citizens would do well to hear the words that dignity. Funds will be divided between the Havel wrote in 1991: "Despite the political regional health authorities and the Winnipeg distress that I face every day, I am still deeply Health Authority. convinced that politics is not essentially a - disreputable business, and to the extent that it is, Here in Winnipeg, the WHA will use their it is only disreputable people who make it so. I funds to redevelop a 15-bed palliative care unit would concede that it can, more than any other at St. Boniface General Hospital. The first year sphere of human activity, tempt one to of the program will see Brandon, northern and disreputable practices, and it therefore places rural RHAs hire a palliative care resource person higher demands on people, but it is simply not who will co-ordinate the regional palliative care true that a politician must lie or intrigue. It is program. They will educate people who work utter nonsense spread about by people who, for with the terminally ill and provide support to whatever reason, wish to discourage others from palliative care workers. taking an interest in public life." In the second year of the program, a 24-hour response team will be ushered in as well as The work and life of Vaclav Havel are expanded home care services. This will allow reminders to us all of the higher calling of patients to receive more services in their home. politics and of how fortunate we are to have As a former nurse, I recognize the significance people like Vaclav Havel exist today to of this initiative. This announcement illustrates encourage us in our dark days. Thank you. this government's commitment to provide appropriate health care services for all segments ORDERS OF THE DAY of this province's population. We care about the needs of Manitobans and will work hard to House Business ensure that these needs are met. Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Vaclav Havel Leader): I would ask if you would call first of all the motion with respect to the report of the Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Vaclav Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections Havel, the Czech philosopher, poet and respecting judicial compensation which was April 28, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 705 received this April 7, 1999. That would be The Monnin report talked about the fact that fo llowed by continuation of debate on third it is important not only to have processes in reading ofBill 17. place that give the Chief Electoral Officerand all parties to elections and political activity the tools I would move, seconded by the honourable with which to make informed decisions and Minister of Finance (Mr. Gilleshammer), that, in good choices about whether they are going to go accordance with subsections 11.1(5) and 11.1(6) fo rward with an accusation or not of wrongdoing of The Provincial Court Act, the report of the under the act, but also recommendations that Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections come from the Chief Electoral Officer and respecting judicial compensation received on Elections Manitoba as a result of elections and April 7, 1999, be concurred in. as a result of situations which I hope we never have again like we have been faced with today Motion agreed to. as an outcome of the Monnin report. The recommendation states that the legislative Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, as I have committee that deals with The Elections Act and requested, if you could call Bill 17 fo r The Elections Finances Act must sit within 60 continuation of third reading. Should the House days of receipt of recommendations from the give that third reading this afternoon, I think you Chief Electoral Office whenever those would find agreement then to proceed to private recommendations come fo rward. There would members' hour, to call it five o'clock. I think be no time lag allowed longer than two months, there would be agreement of the House to do whether the House is sitting or not. that. I would also advise the House that should that bill receive third reading in this Chamber * (1430) this afternoon, His Honour the Lieutenant Governor will be av ailable to give it Royal So, Madam Speaker, the recommendation of Assent at a quarter to five. So I imagine the Monnin has been accepted, and Bill 17 does House would be prepared to interrupt whatever provide for the timely consideration of any proceedings are taking place at that time to allow recommendations coming from the Chief His Honour to attend at the Chamber fo r that Electoral Office, and that is within 60 days of purpose. laying the recommendation before the Legislature. So there will not be an opportunity THIRD READINGS fo r any government to delay consideration of recommendations that come before it from the Bill 17-The Elections Amendment and Chief Electoral Office. I think it is incredibly Elections Finances Amendment Act important that this part of the legislation be enacted because historically the recommen­ Madam Speaker: On the proposed motion of dations of the Chief Electoral Officer have been the honourable First Minister, Bill 17, The timely. They have been all designed to make the Elections Amendment and Elections Finances electoral process more open, more accessible, Amendment Act; Loi Modifiant Ia Loi electorale and the people who participate in the electoral et Ia Loi sur le financement des campagnes process, whether they be candidates, chief electorales, standing in the name of the financial officers, auditors or political parties, honourable member fo r Wellington, who has more accountable. Openness and accountability nine minutes remaining. is what we should strive fo r as people who are involved in the political process. It is what Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): I, at the close people like Mr. Havel, whom we are honouring of business yesterday, was concluding my today, have fought fo r, have gone to prison fo r, remarks on Bill 17 and talking ab out the various and many people throughout the history of this recommendations of the Monnin report that were world have died for-a system of government that to be found in Bill 17. There is one other looks very much like ours. outstanding recommendation that I would like to speak to, and I think it is also, as they all are, I think, Madam Speaker, in concluding my quite important. remarks on Bill 17, as I started, it is very 706 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 1999

unfortunate that we had to have a situation that whenever you go into committee meetings, - ended in the Monnin report and Bill 17. Many committee hearings, where you have members of people have spoken on that, and I am sure the the public that come fo rward and make people of Manitoba, in their wisdom, will speak presentation. There is always something that on that very shortly. But the one positive thing quite of:en triggers a number of ideas and that has come out of this whole dreadful thoughts. There was one presenter that I thought situation is that we have in Bill 17 some was quite interesting, and both presenters exceptionally good amendments which will expressed some valid concerns, but it was Mr. make our electoral process more open and Nielson that really intrigued me in the way in accountable and will, with good will on all parts which he addressed this particular bill. of everybody who works in the vineyards of public service, ensure that nothing, nothing like Madam Speaker, Mr. Nielson went on to what has happened to the people of this province talk about areas of concern that he and through in the last four years as a result of this vote­ his contacts-and I must say, they seem to be rigging scandal ever happens again. fa irly excessive in terms of the Internet and so forth. He talked about ways in which we would So we are pleased and delighted to be able have a better democracy. In good part, it was in to support Bill 17, its process and its contents. reference directly to the bill. As I had pointed out in my comments to Mr. Nielson, that even Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): It is a though in Manitoba we do have an excellent pleasure fo r me to rise today and speak on Bill system, many, including myself, at least in part, 17. When it came through second reading I did would argue that it is second to no other in the talk in essence about the principles, as our rules world. indicate we are supposed to on the bill, and went through the diffe rent recommendations that Having said that, Madam Speaker, there is came out of the Monnin inquiry, the party's so much room fo r improvement in making our position. The thing that I would like to again system a better, a more democratic system. reinforce in third reading is one of the There were a couple that maybe, I thought, this recommendations in which I think it is would be an appropriate time to talk about. That absolutely critical that we see action, some sort is one that has always been somewhat of a of concrete, tangible action taking place. In part surprise, and this is more so at the local level. there was an, albeit short, bit of a discussion in committee in regard to the issue. I, in most part, believe that there are certain expenditures that are not taken into account in a I think that it is imperative that political provincial election that should be taken into parties have some form of code of conduct or account. I can only fe el safe in commenting on code of behaviour or code of ethics, whatever my own area, because that is the area in which I one might want to call it. I look for not only have gone through a number of campaigns, and leadership in all political parties to be able to comment on that particular experience. You demonstrate to that good will. We also believe know, like all candidates that live in their that there is a need for Elections Manitoba ridings, they put up signs. I too had a sign,_ and ultimately to provide some base or some core of my sign, I guess, was in the backyard because it values that would be reflective of what faced Keewatin at the time. That is where I put expectations Manitobans would have of their my sign and so we did not have one necessarily political parties. We are really talking more of on the front lawn. So canvassers would come the mores that Manitobans would have as a through, and it was interesting that my wife, who whole in regard to codes of ethics and behaviour. was at home taking care of our children, made reference twice to individuals from the NDP Having said that, Madam Speaker, the other party who were knocking on doors. One was a recommendations I commented on during union individual fr om B.C. Another was a union second reading, what I wanted to go to was the individual, I believe it was from Alberta or committee meeting. I have always, as in the Saskatchewan, I am not sure. The reason why I past, fe lt that there is a great deal of benefit say that is because I think that there are many April 28, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 707 expenditures that should be taken into work against different political parties. I would consideration. I would think that this might be share, you know, my provincial campaigns cost occurring in all political parties to some degree, me, personally, money. There is no corporation but I qualified it by commenting on-1 am talking that donates thousands of dollars to me. I about the riding which I represent, the riding believe the landlord of my campaign office has which I am most familiar with. given me a larger thanaverage donation, but you will find that all my campaign donations-and I Madam Speaker, if there are indeed paid am quite open to provide wherever possible an individuals, paid lobbyists, representatives that open accounting for where I receive my money are working at a local campaign, that is a from, but I can assure the Leader of the official legitimate thing for them to be doing. I do not opposition- question that, but I do question whether or not that should be reported as an election expense. I An Honourable Member: Who paid for that would suggest to you that if you have organized, Free Press one day there? whether it is organized labour or other organized interest groups that are providing or making Mr. Lamoureux: -that the advertising, or I available individuals, whether it is on a part-time should not say-the member is throwing me off or a full-time basis, there has to be some here. Not the advertising, the campaign, the mechanism that takes that into account because people that volunteer in my campaign and the there is an advantage when that occurs. efforts that they put in is fairly great, fairly given. [interjection] Madam Speaker, the leader * (1440) is throwing me off. I will just pause for a quick second so I can catch the gist of his question. I look at individuals that put efforts in my campaign, and I can, with all honesty, indicate to An Honourable Member: The Free Press ad. this House that, you know, membership on my campaign involves a great deal of union Mr. Lamoureux: Are you talking about the individuals, people who are heavily involved. Free Press survey that was sent out to all My campaign manager, or former campaign Manitobans? That was paid by the Liberal manager, Jhun Martin, was one of the poster-can Party, from what I understand. I call it poster boys for promotion for the CIA, the Canadian international union. Well, I get the gist of what the Leader is now trying to say. Madam Speaker, to the An Honourable Member: Which one? member for Selkirk. One should never be presumptuous. He just heckled: we will miss Mr. Lamoureux: Jhun Martin. you, implying that the NDP will take over in the riding of Inkster. I will give a little bit of advice An Honourable Member: CIA, what union is that I can give him, and that is never to take that? one's constituents for granted. I will never take my constituents for granted. I hope and trust Mr. Lamoureux: The union for the Transcona that the member fo r Selkirk, by what he just yards. [interjection] Well, this individual worked said, does not take his constituents for granted. out at the CN yards in Transcona. Many of my If he wants to take his constituents for granted, I constituents actually work throughout Winnipeg, would ask him not to take the constituents that I are participants in unions. My apologies if I represent for granted because not only is he used the wrong acronym fo r the union. doing a disservice to my constituents, he is also doing a disservice to the individual that might be Madam Speaker, the point is-and I know an opponent for me in the next provincial that it is a sensitive issue, but I am appealing to election. Elections Manitoba. I had an individual who indicated that he was given opportunities to be But, Madam Speaker, as members can tell, it trained through the union on campaigning and is a very sensitive issue, and that is the reason then asked to go into a particular campaign to why I bring it up because I do believe there is a 708 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 1999 responsibility for Manitoba Elections to continue paid individuals, that those paid individuals are, in a very proactive way to find out how in fact, registered with Elections Manitoba campaigns at the local level are in fact run, that through the donation that you have to give. there is a responsibility for Elections Manitoba to ensure that all candidates as much as possible I believe that by doing it in that sort of a are put on an equal playing field. That is in fact fa shion that we will have a better system. That what I am arguing for, that if in fact there are is the reason why I bring it up. I do not bring it organizations that are third party that contribute up to take cheap shots at a political party or an indirectly, that directly assist a particular outside organization. I bring it up because Mr. candidate, that that is something at the very least Nielson, in reporting to the committee on these that is worthy of looking into because it does amendments, talked about a number of diffe rent have an impact, and I have seen that first-hand. things that he believes are important in order to make us have a better government, a better form I know, going into the next provincial of democracy. election, that there will be an organized attempt from a sector that does not necessarily reflect the He talked about issues such as what happens wishes of a union membership, as an example, inside the Chamber. He was disappointed, for and it saddens me. It saddens many of my example, that so little time was given for that campaign workers that are very actively individual to prepare on such an important issue involved in unions. I say it because it is there. It and make better comment on the legislation that is very real, and I use it as an example in Inkster was before us. because that is the area which I am most fam iliar with. I would suggest to you that in fact the Well, I agree. I agree wholeheartedly. Not same sorts of things might be occurring in other only do we need to look at Elections Manitoba areas. It is not to pinpoint and say it is just the and the role that they have to play in ensuring union elite or select union elite that are doing it. that what change is necessary, and change is - There, quite frankly, could be the same sort of necessary, that that change be continual and tactics that would be used in other areas through continuously moving forward so we get a better other interest groups. democratic system, but we also need and have a responsibility to look internally. One of the I would suggest to you that what is examples that Mr. Nielson made reference to important here is that when we go into a was, of course, an orderly fashion within this provincial election, we are asking individuals or Chamber. Manitobans to look at the candidates that are being provided for them to address or to look up, * (1450) whether it is through the web site or making the connection through the media what the political Well, there were a number of us who served parties are saying. We are expecting, and that on a committee, and it was alluded to at the expectation is there because we, in part, say that committee hearing, of the provisional rules. In we want a democratic system that is fa ir. We do the provisional rules, there was a process that that by what laws we currently have in place by would have seen us sit in the fa lltime, sit iR the putting in election expenses, by putting in caps. springtime. The idea was that in the springtime we would actually have legislation brought in. Well, I would suggest to you that there are The summertime provided ample opportunity for many loopholes that are there, and those individuals to digest the legislation that has been loopholes need to be addressed whenever brought forward and then in the falltime have possible. The reason why they have to be those committee meetings and third readings. In addressed is that I really believe that it should the springtime we would have dealt with the not be up to an interest group of whatever, Estimates or the budget process. whether it is the Chamber of Commerce or the Manitoba Federation of Labour. It should be up Well, I bring it up because there are not as to the candidates to be able to communicate their many opportunities to be able to talk on an issue messages through their volunteers or if they have that is as important as the one that we have April 28, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 709 today. We talk about the pillars of democracy or those particular comments, because it is easy to the foundations. In the last year I have really say something in opposition and say that endless been somewhat disappointed. It is difficult for amounts of dollars should and could be me to explain that disappointment, saddened by expended. Government, it goes without saying, what I have seen. I really, for example, believe is going to try to limit some of those that we should have sat last fall, that we raise expenditures, especially on the record. I would and spend billions of dollars every year. There find that equally as repulsive. I do believe the is a responsibility on all members of this government in terms of the expenditures-and Chamber to be in here and to ensure better that question, I think, was either raised today or accountability of those expenditures, of those yesterday: advertising. You know there is a revenues that are being generated. Both political huge amount of speculation that the election parties are to blame for that not taking place. could be called as early as May 4, possibly May Both the official opposition and the government 11, and we see a lot of advertising taking place. could be soundly criticized for that. When I Well, again, that is an issue in which one has to look at The Elections Act, The Elections be very diligent. You cannot use government Finances Act, Madam Speaker, again I would dollars in order to prop up a government, or you suggest to you that not only both but all political should not be using government dollars in order parties have to share in the blame in how we, far to prop up a government leading into a too often, in my opinion, are too partisan in provincial election. approaching this issue. With the issue that I raised just a fe w minutes ago, I have had New You know, this time the government, which Democrats agree with me that that is in fact is Conservative, is being soundly criticized for something that has to be dealt with. the dollars that they are spending. Well, 11 years ago, the roles were reversed, that you had When you sit down with people in a very the then Conservatives criticizing the govern­ apolitical way, Madam Speaker, you will find ment of the day, which happened to be NDP, on that the room for consensus building is over­ the advertising that they were spending using whelming. As parliamentarians, we recognize governmenttax dollars. many of the deficiencies that are in fact there. That is the reason why I had suggested that, as What that means, I would suggest, is that we with Mr. Nielson and others, there is a role for need to be more diligent and more proactive in outside organizations and individuals also to trying to come up with guidelines that will lobby Elections Manitoba. ensure that abuse of that nature will be marginalized. Madam Speaker, I, as an individual, as an MLA, have attempted to express concerns that I I am not sure if Elections Manitoba has a have had with the elections. Third-party role to play in that area, but it is definitely an advertising is another concern. Again, we have issue that does have to be addressed because it is to be very, very careful. We have to respect the not fair. It is not appropriate for governments to rights. When I look at, for example, the be using tax dollars when, in fact, they should be Manitoba Teachers' Society, they have a role to using party dollars. That is something which play in informing Manitobans in elections. causes a great deal of concern, I believe, not There is no doubt about that. Our nurses' union only for me, Madam Speaker, but also would be has a role to play in informing Manitobans what a concern ofmy constituents. is actually happening. But there is a role for Elections Manitoba to start, at the very least, I believe when we talk about our Elections looking at some of the issues that can have Acts, whether it is the Elections Act of Manitoba impacts on provincial elections, and if in fact or The Elections Finances Act or the boundary there is a need for Elections Manitoba to be redistribution, what Manitobans want first and more involved. foremost is a sense of fairness of no political interference in the process. That is something in Madam Speaker, I say that and I caution, which I, as much as possible, have advocated and I trust that other members will not exploit for. I would assure this House whenever I have 710 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 1999 had discussions to the best of my knowledge fu ndraising and how fu ndraising takes place fo r with Elections Manitoba that I do approach those parties. I do not need to be given a lesson on discussions in a very apolitical fa shion. I believe how it is done, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I know that there is a role fo r political parties to lobby how it is done and I am not impressed. I think Elections Manitoba, and to that extent Elections that there is room fo r huge improvement on that Manitoba does meet with party representatives front. There is no political party, at least inside to get feedback on legislative changes. I think this Chamber, that could escape or come out that is a positive. clean on this particular issue. There is a real need to visit that issue, but I would suggest to Mr . Ma rcel Laurendeau, Deputy Sp eaker, in the you that that is an issue that Elections Manitoba Chair is, in fact, looking at or I trust is looking at.

Where we really need to improve is the way Part of the reason why I am standing today in which the local campaigns are ran, Mr. is more so that microlevel. That microlevel is Deputy Speaker. I would encourage, and I could where I have the concern, because in the long not encourage in strong enough words how run it is the constituency by constituency and Elections Manitoba, I believe, has a role to look what happens inside those constituencies that is at the microlevel of campaign, how those going to ensure that we have a sense of campaigns are financed, and how those democracy which Manitobans can fe el campaigns are ran. Because there is no doubt in comfortable and confident in, andthat is critical. the minds of Manitobans that they want to see We do not want people to lose confidence in the fa ir elections. That has been clearly system that we have. demonstrated with the Monnin report-very clear in the Monnin report. That, I would argue, is the In conclusion, I trust-[interjection] The macro. That is something in which Elections member fo r Burrows (Mr. Martindale) wants me Manitoba has been very aggressive in addressing to continue, but I do not have to fill the 40 - the macro, the party at the larger level, but if minutes. there is an area in which Elections Manitoba needs to improve, I would suggest to you it is at Mr. Deputy Speaker, in conclusion, the the microlevel. Again, I have personal examples primary push fo r me this afternoon, I believe- of that and I am more than happy to share that with Elections Manitoba at any time. At another An Honourable Member: Is to get re-elected. time, I would like to have another opportunity to go into more details. Mr. Lamoureux: -is not necessarily to get re­ elected, even though it would be nice. My * (1500) constituents will determine that. It is more so to emphasize the importance of looking at the local I made reference to the financing aspect of campaigns, and it is absolutely critical to see the microcampaign. There are other things that Elections Manitoba more proactive on what occur at the constituency level during campaigns takes place at those local campaigns and come that Elections Manitoba has an obligation to look up-[interjection] The member fo r Brandon .East at, at the very least look at, and hopefully come (Mr. L. Evans) brings up an excellent point, up with a way that would see legislation brought independent returningofficers. into this Chamber and passed much in a fa shion that it is today in the sense of all political parties That is a recommendation from Elections or all MLAs support and being very much aware Manitoba. It is a good recommendation, and that after I sit down that there will likely be other there are many other things such as that that speakers who might want to address the finances could be done, that there is a responsibility to and how the Liberal Party's finances actually see done, and I hope to be given the privilege to come about, Mr. Deputy Speaker. be able to continue on as an MLA to ensure as much as possible that we will have a better sense I think that there is room fo r improvement in of democracy at the local level and at the all three political parties in the whole area of macro level. April 28, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 711

With those few words, Mr. Deputy Speaker, went against every democratic principle that we I thank you fo r the opportunity to say it. represent.

Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Yes, thank Now this individual is of Polish extraction. you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, fo r the opportunity to He said fo r years we fo ught in Poland to have a enter into this debate. democratic state. Manitoba has sent observers to democratic elections across the world in order to Mr. Deputy Speaker, I had occasion to hear demonstrate what democracy is all about, and some of the comments of members of this yet we have these same individuals involved in House, and I think there have been some very the government who attempted to fixan election valid points put on the record. Some points I campaign. agree with. Some points I agree with in sentiment. Some points I think, particularly of * (1510) the preceding speaker, are inaccurate. I actually would like to spend some time, although I am I can hardly talk about it in this Chamber, limited in my time, in dealing with some of the because I think it is so disgusting. I go further. inaccuracies I think that the member fo r Inkster It is one of the most tragic and saddest episodes (Mr. Lamoureux) or previously the member fo r in political history. I ask you, Mr. Deputy The Maples (Mr. Kowalski) had put on the Speaker, do I think that the Roblin government, record with respect to this act. or anyone associated with the Roblin government, would have hatched a scheme to fix I do not want to do that, Mr. Deputy elections as happened under the present regime? Speaker, because I want to fo cus on the essence I say not. Do I think the Walter Weir of why we are here and why we are occasioned government would have done that? I say not. to deal with the particular amendments that we Do I think the Ed Schreyer government would are dealing with with respect to this bill. We are have done that? I say not. Do I think that the not talking about a minor issue. We are talking Sterling Lyon government? As much as I about an attempt by a political organization, by a disagree with Sterling Lyon on so many issues, I group of individuals in a political party, to fix an always felt that Mr. Lyon was a man of election campaign. That is something that is principle. I do not think the Conservatives under unprecedented in this jurisdiction. leadership of Sterling Lyon would have done that. I do not think the Conservatives under the Now, I appreciate the comments of the leadership of Sidney Spivak would have done members for Inkster, The Maples and others that. with respect to things that go on at the local level. Things go on by all political parties that I Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Conservative group do not agree with, that I do not think are under the leadership of Premier Gary Filmon not appropriate. I think those that are appropriately only did that but was allowed to do that and discussed and reviewed and made to ensure that allowed to cover up on that, and I think that is this system is more democratic and fair, I agree disgusting. I think the Premier ought to have with that 100 percent. resigned. I think the honourable thing he should have done would have been to resign. Mr. Deputy Speaker, what we are talking about here is the most significant political Mr. Deputy Speaker, reference was made by scandal in Manitoba history since the Rodmond the member fo r The Maples when I heard his Roblin government was brought down in 1917. comments on previous reading that candidates I do not think that we should lose sight ofthat. I and individuals from political parties sometimes want to cite an instance when I met a constituent say things and do things that we cannot control, of mine. I do not know how that constituent and that is true. All of us are caught in situations votes. I was on the street and I was surprised or are involved in situation where people around with the fierceness and the anger that he us in the zeal and in their best intentions perhaps approached the issue of the Monnin inquiry. He do things that we do not approve of. It happens said to me, these people cheated. These people to all of us. 712 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 1999

Mr. Deputy Speaker, to have your key, your member fo r Tuxedo fo r the rest of his political - No. I, campaign organizer together with the and after-career because it is such a disgusting head of your Treasury Board, together with and horrible episode. lifetime members of the party hatch a plot to launch a political party in order to steal votes Now, if this was the first time that this plot­ away from another political party in order to win -if this plot had materialized out of nowhere, an election is one of the most disgusting things perhaps I would not have been as critical, but I that could be done in a democratic process. just want to go back to an episode which Many of us, most of us are second or third appeared to be isolated at one time, and that was generation from countries where we never had during the by-elections, which, I believe, access to democracy. In fa ct, the institutions are occurred in 1992. It was not the '93 by­ so worshipped-! know when I go to any elections, it was '92 when two members of the Ukrainian hall anywhere in Manitoba, there is Premier's staff phoned an open-line show. They always the picture of Taras Shevchenko on one phoned an open-line show and criticized a side and Queen Elizabeth on the other, and I Liberal candidate. That was bad enough, and I know that those people in that hall suppose, again, all of us might have zealots and fundamentally worship the democratic system have others that would do something like that, and honour the democratic system that we have­ but let me continue. Those individuals phoned that to have a government and key government the open-line show, and then when confronted, officialsattempt to subvert the system is nothing denied that they had phoned the open-line show. short of disgusting. It was then fo und to be that there were two individuals in the Premier's Office who had done the phoning. Now that perhaps was an isolated I welcome these amendments, and I know event. Perhaps. that these amendments will go some way towards preventing this kind of action from An Honourable Member: Then they wrote happening in the future and perhaps would have - letters to the editor. gone some way from preventing this action to go as far as it did. But I tell you, what went on Mr. Chomiak: My colleague indicates that literally makes my stomach upset. My letters were written, but let us look at this. They constituent, whom I met on the street and told phoned. Okay. I would accept that. They then me about that, was just disgusted. were caught, and they lied. Then they subsequently were fo und to be working in the I do not know how members on that side of Premier's Office and were disciplined. Okay, the House can-1 do not know how they deal that will happen with all political parties. with it. I do not accuse, by the way, because I have a lot of respect fo r members on the Subsequent to that, the Premier fo r New opposite side of the House. I consider myself a Brunswick attended the Olympics, and it became friend with most members on the other side of a national issue that the Premier fo r New the House, but I do not know how they can go Brunswick was attending the Olympics and was into meetings and caucus meetings with the being sponsored by IBM. Now our Premier., the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and not be self-absorbed member fo r Tuxedo, was also attending the in trying to get to the bottom of how this could Olympics, and he was interviewed by an open­ happen to a political party that I believe would line host in Winnipeg and asked: Who is paying not have done it under Walter Weir, would not fo r it? He indicated it was the Pan Am Games. have done it under Sidney Spivak, would not Subsequently we discovered that the Premier's have done it under Sterling Lyon, would not hotel was being paid fo r by IBM. Now, let me have done it under Duff Roblin and fu rther back; add, this was a national scandal. The Premier of but somehow were able to do it under the New Brunswick was fo rced to apologize and leadership of the member fo r Tuxedo (Mr. return the money. And the member fo r Tuxedo, Filmon). I think that question mark will remain, the Premier, came back to Manitoba and said: I and regardless of what happens in the future, that sent the money back; I did not do anything question mark, that asterisk will be beside the wrong. End of issue. April 28, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 713

Mr. Deputy Speaker, first, assistants in the an election is beyond and is in a category all of Premier's Office phone, lie, and then own up. its own, which is why I have sat here and not Then the Premier gets caught in the IBM dealt with this issue. scandal, then he owns up. Then we have the incident for which we are dealing with the * (1520) amendments to the act, which has precipitated this entire debate. Will these amendments, Mr. Deputy Speaker, get to the bottom of the issue? I do not I frankly do not believe the First Minister. think so. Perhaps if these amendments had been regret having to say that, because I do not think I in place we would have dealt with this scandal could have said that about Duff Roblin, about and the taint of this scandal a lot sooner. Sidney Spivak, about Walter Weir, about Sterling Lyon. I would not have said that about Drafting a code of ethics by an individual them; but I can say that about the present who leads a party, you know, is to me a incumbent in the office, and that is sad. nonstarter. The present Premier has to step aside when it comes to a code of ethics if he intends You know, the Premier, well, I do not want to-I do not think we would have needed a code to go on, because I just find it disgusting. I do of ethics when this party was led by other not want to relive that history, because I find it individuals. We did not need a code of ethics so distasteful. But the point I want to make- when Sterling Lyon led the party or Sidney Spivak led the party or Walter Weir led the party An Honourable Member: You are loving or Duff Roblin led the party, but when Gary every second of it. Filmon leads this party, they have got to have a code of ethics, but frankly a code of ethics is too Mr. Chomiak: The member fo r Assiniboia late. says: "loving every second of it." I find this entire episode disgusting. I think the Premier ought to have resigned. think the Premier's reputation is tarnished by An Honourable Member: So do I. virtue of this. Again, I was so struck, I was struck on the doorstep by the comments of my Mr. Chomiak: I am glad the member fo r constituents to this matter. You know, I am used Assiniboia finds it disgusting, and I am curious to hearing concerns about health care, and I am to see what her comments will be about these used to hearing concerns about taxation, and I amendments, and I would be hopeful that she am used to hearing concerns abouteduca tion and would ask her Leader some of these questions concerns about public safety, but I did not that we are raising here today. I hope she will expect, I did not expect the anger on the door­ ask the Premier, whom she worked fo r directly, step with the present Premier, Premier Filmon, the same questions that we are asking today, and the scandal. because I think we ought to get to the bottom of this. I am sorry to say that the scandal taints all of us. That has been canvassed in this Chamber I think a concerted plot on the part of the and we have talked about it, but I was surprised chief election official fo r the Conservative Party, at the extent of the anger that the public has on the part of the secretary of the Treasury towards our Premier as a result of this scandal. Board, on the part of lifetime Conservatives, Mr. Do I think it is justified? Yes, I do. Do I think it Deputy Speaker, is beyond pale, anything that should be resolved? Yes, I do. How should it be we have dealt with in this Legislature. It is resolved? The Premier should honourably beyond-sure the $500,000 is a ridiculous amount resign as a result of his leadership and what he of money to spend on health advertising, and allowed to happen. sure the sign campaign stuff is not acceptable, but to hatch a plot outside of the Premier, inside Now, Mr. Deputy Speaker, if the Premier the Premier's Office to launch a political did not know, and that is a big if, in my opinion, campaign, to take votes away, to cheat and to fix I guess the question would be-and again I want 714 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 1999

to emphasize that we all have people around us It is hard to believe that we can go to other - who, through their zeal and efforts, wish to do jurisdictions and review their elections when we the best they can. All of us, I am sure, have been have, on the record, in Manitoba, a scandal of guilty at some time of having people do things this proportion. that we did not think was appropriate. But when questions were posed and questions were raised, You know, Mr. Deputy Speaker, these and when this leader did not fo llow through, as amendments will assist us in preventing perhaps he did, then I think he has no choice but to something of this kind from happening, but I resign. cannot think of a political party or political figure in Manitoba history over the past 25 or 30 An Honourable Member: He called a fu ll years that I have been directly involved that I inquiry. think-and I am thinking very carefully-was capable of doing this. I cannot think of a Mr. Chomiak: Now, I am glad the member fo r political figure that I think would go as far as the Assiniboia (Mrs. Mcintosh) indicated the member fo r Tuxedo (Mr. Filmon) allowed to Premier called a fu ll inquiry, because I want to happen with his group. relate to her an episode that was witnessed by the media in this House. [interjection] Yes, the Now I hope, Mr. Deputy Speaker-and I Premier called a fu ll inquiry after he told me have said to members opposite that I do not personally he would never call a full judicial believe members opposite knew of this. You inquiry. I said to him: "You will call ajudicial know I am quite surprised at the anger some inquiry." And her Leader and good friend, the members opposite express- member fo r Tuxedo (Mr. Filmon) said: "No, never." And I said: "You will call a judicial An Honourable Member: It is not anger, it is inquiry." He said: "No, never." annoyance.

Mr. Chomiak: And the annoyance, as the The only reason he called a fu ll judicial member fo r Assiniboia (Mrs. Mcintosh) inquiry was he was fo rced by day after day of expresses, when a judicial inquiry has fo und as questioning in the Legislature by members in many significant things: In all my years on the this House. He had no choice but to call fo r a Bench I never encountered as many 'blank' in judicial inquiry, and he would not have if we had one proceeding as I did in this inquiry. not pushed him. He told me so himself, Mr. Deputy Speaker. He told me he would not call a You know, Mr. Deputy Speaker: In all of full judicial inquiry. I told him he would. He my years on the bench, I never encountered as called a fu ll inquiry, and the member attempts to many 'blank' in one proceeding as I did this use that as a defence fo r the Premier? Good inquiry. heavens, the Premier did everything but stand on his head and spit nickels to avoid calling a How can members opposite defend that? If judicial inquiry, and only when he was fo rced the apology is sincere, then I think the member into a comer did he do so, and he has been back­ fo r Assiniboia would accept it as such. pedalling and doing everything in his power to remove himself from the accountability as a As I said, is it not ironic that I am speaking result of that. today during a day when one of the great political statesmen of this century is visiting our You know, it is hard to believe that in the province and our city, indeed an individual 1990s in Manitoba, of all places, this sounds like whose statements and whose books I have read something that would come up maybe 60, 70 and whom I have quoted, and it is ironic and years ago, perhaps in other jurisdictions. But to perhaps a bit sad that on a day like this I have to think that we are in the same category as other talk about a scandal that has served to denigrate jurisdictions where there was a planned, Manitoba and all of us through its intensity and concerted effo rt to circumvent the rules of through its bitterness and through its disgusting - democracy is absolutely disgusting. fo llow-up. You know, fo r the member fo r April 28, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 715

Assiniboia, I would rather win the elections on But as I said previously in my comments, I the straight issues than have to deal with this do not think that the previous leadership of the kind of stuff, and if the member fo r Assiniboia Conservative Party would have allowed could call her party to order and if she could themselves to be dragged into this morass. I somehow rein them in, perhaps we could deal dare say if any of those leaders were caught in with the issues as they relate. this kind of a scandal, I think they would have done what the parliamentary system demanded. They would have done the honourable thing, and I suppose members opposite would rather they would have resigned and saved their party we not speak on it. I would rather not speak on and saved the public and saved the process from it. I find this disgusting. I find it disgusting, and having to go through what we have had to go when I was quoted at the press conference through in this jurisdiction as a result of hanging saying it was one of the saddest days in the on fo r purposes, of what I do not know-for what politjcal history of this province when this report I do not know, self-vindication, perhaps. I do came out, I meant that, and it was, and I think not know and I am not going to speculate as to members in this House feel that. So I guess the why the Premier (Mr. Filmon) did not do the question is where do we go fr om here. We have honourable thing and did not resign as a result of these amendments to build on, Mr. Deputy what happened, because no matter how you Speaker. They will go some way, I suppose, to mince it, no matter how you cut it, no matter restoring the tarnished image of this province as how you try to dance around the issue, it still a result of the neglect and the malfeasance of the goes back to what my constituent said on the Premier (Mr. Film on) and those members of the street, that he could not believe that a party Conservative Party who participated in the could do this, could get away with it and could scandal and in the plot. stay in office as a result of a scandal of this kind.

But I think it is a sad statement on perhaps­ So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I have been urged and I would wish to have this question by members on my side of the House to refer to answered: Is it the Conservative Party today or some of the quotes from this report, but I do not is it the leadership of the Conservative Party that even like reading these quotes anymore. I mean, have allowed this to happen? That is an I cannot believe that in Manitoba in the 1990s interesting question because I do not think the we would have a Chief Justice accusing a old Tory philosophy would have sustained this political party of this kind of activity. It is kind of scandal, and, as I said previously, I do absolutely disgusting. When I anticipated the not think any of the previous leaders of the report coming out, I never thought I would see Conservative Party whom I am familiar with, words like this written on a piece of paper about Duff Roblin, Walter Weir, Sidney Spivak, a political party led by the member fo r Tuxedo Sterling Lyon- (Mr. Filmon). I think it is an indictment of the leadership, and it is an indictment of perhaps 11 An Honourable Member: When did you years of far too long in office. I do not care who change you mind about them? You hated them the political figure is, whether it was the figures when they were here. I referred to, whether it was Duff Roblin or Sidney Spivak or Walter Weir or Sterling Lyon. Even those individuals I think after 11 years in Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Deputy Speaker, the officewould have realized that their time was up member for Assiniboia (Mrs. Mcintosh) is and would have realized after 11 years in office chirping fr om her seat. It reminds me of a matters creep in and cracks appear and a renewal fo rmer member who sat in that particular seat. is necessary, otherwise corruption, which is The only difference was I used to pay attention inevitable, sets in. The problem is it set in a lot to what the comments were of that fo rmer earlier in this particular regime, and perhaps it member, because he had some interesting set in at the very onset fo r all that I know, in suggestions. reference to the comments I said earlier. There is much, much more that I could put on the * (1530) record that I choose not to, Mr. Deputy Speaker, 716 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 1999 because I do not want to continue dealing with have been fo r this Premier to resign, not cling to - some of these issues. power, and he would have removed the taint from all of us in Manitoba. I close by saying I think these amendments will do something to right the wrongs that have When we have someone like Mr. Havel in occurred in Manitoba, that the honourable thing Manitoba, we would not have to sort of hold our for the Premier (Mr. Filmon) to have done in the heads because we have just gone through a parliamentary system would have been to resign. political scandal that threatened to undermine The decent and correct thing, and something that democracy at a time when his nation is coming would have removed the tarnish from, the stain into a system of democracy. We all come from from all Conservative members, would have second and third generations, from countries been for the Premier to resign and do the where our parents and grandparents cherished honourable thing and not worry about clinging our democratic system and fo ught fo r a into officefo r whatever reason I do not know. democratic system, and now we have a leadership that sought to undermine our The Premier no longer has the confidence or democratic system. the legitimacy to continue one day longer. After 11 years he does not have the legitimacy or the An Honourable Member: That is unfair. confidence in this House or the people of Manitoba. The Premier could go a long way Mr. Chomiak: That is unfair, the member fo r towards improving the situation in the province Assiniboia says. For the secretary of the by doing the honourable thing, and that is Treasury Board, fo r the head of the Conservative stepping aside and doing the right thing fo r the campaign, fo r the leadership of this political people of Manitoba, not clinging to office, not party to allow to happen what happened did not hiding behind the defences, not having to defend undermine democracy. Then you did not read the activities of his friends and associates on the the Monnin report. You did not read those plot, on the worst scandal to hit this province quotes, and perhaps I should read those quotes since the Rodmond Roblin scandal that brought from the Monnin report, because that is the most down that government-the worst. Think about indicting part of the Monnin report, where he it, Mr. Deputy Speaker. In 70 years we have not used the individuals who are vulnerable to try to had a scandal of this kind until this government. subvert the democratic system, individuals [interjection] whom you do not have the time of day fo r most of the time, but if you want to use them in a The member fo r Assiniboia (Mrs. Mcintosh) political campaign, you do it. That is why I hate can say all that she wants, but I just reiterate to talking about this report, because it is disgusting. her that I do not think Duff Roblin, Sidney If we think Saskatchewan was bad, that was Spivak, Sterling Lyon or Walter Weir would financial corruption, Mr. Deputy Speaker. They have been involved in a plot or allowed a plot did not try to fix a campaign. Show me another like this to be hatched under their leadership. I jurisdiction in the past 50 years where they tried do not believe it. As much as I disliked Sterling to fix acampaign. Show me. Lyon-good heavens, and I had my disagree­ ments with Sterling Lyon-I thought he was an Ma dam Sp eaker in the Chair honourable man and I say he is an honourable man. I do not think Sterling Lyon would have An Honourable Member: British Columbia. allowed that to happen. If Sterling Lyon was caught in the position that this Premier was Mr. Chomiak: Well, put it on the record fo r the caught in, he would have done the honourable member fo r Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik). He thing and he would have resigned whether he talks about other provinces. I know the Socreds knew about the plot or not, whether he knew did a lot in British Columbia, but I do not even about IBM paying or not, whether he knew his think that the Socreds in British Columbia tried assistants were phoning an open-line show and to fix a campaign like this party and the denied it or not. The honourable thing would leadership of this party did, Madam Speaker. April 28, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 717

Having made my comments on this bill, I legitimate, so we can disagree, as we often do hope not to have to speak about this report again. and as we usually do, on the policy approaches, I hope that in our political future we do not have leftand right and whatever, nevertheless, I think an episode of this kind. Frankly, I do not think whoever-and I speak as one who has been here any member who took over leadership of that about 30 years. I have been on both sides of the party whom I am looking across would allow House-15 years on the government side and 15 themselves to get involved in this kind of a years more or less on this side-and I know what despicable, corruptible act. it is like to be in government. I know what it is like to have that responsibility, and it is difficult. With those comments, unless I should­ You do your best, and you think you are making perhaps, members opposite are asking fo r more, the right decisions; but, as I have said to some of but I know members on this side of the House my colleagues on occasion when I think back, wish to put their comments on the record. the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Sometimes when you think you are bringing in a great program or a great policy, you find that Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam people get upset about it or it does not work the Speaker, I rise to add a few remarks, to make a way it was initially envisaged. few remarks, add a few comments to the debate on Bill 17. I, like the member for Kildonan (Mr. There is no question that this whole episode Chomiak, do not necessarily relish a debate on has really grown. It has become much bigger this particular subject, although there are various thananyone here, I am sure, anticipated initially. elements in the bill that are worthwhile Of course, once the inquiry got rolling and all supporting. I am sure none of us in the House the presentations were made and the reports in have difficulty in supporting the passage of the the media, everyone in the province, including bill because the specific recommendations in it myself, became more aware of what was are based on the recommendations of the involved. I did not pay that much attention Monnin inquiry. initially. I did not think it was that much of an issue. It was a concern, of course. Vote rigging I think, Madam Speaker, that Manitobans, should not be condoned by any means, but, at by and large, are well served by their public the same time, I thought, well, it is a problem. I representatives. I think, by and large,this is true did not think that it would be expanded as it has whether you are talking about MLAs, M.P.s or been obviously with the Monnin inquiry and of city councillors or municipal councillors. I course with all the statements that have been think, by and large, I as a Manitoban and we as made to the inquiry and all the information that Manitobans are well served by people who are the inquiry uncovered. elected and who, I believe, are basically good people, honest people, who want to do a We should be concerned that this whole conscientious job. episode is a kind of an episode that does under­ * (1540) mine our democratic system. It undermines the confidence that people have in their elected Now, we may have terrific conflict in terms representatives. It undermines the confidence of policies. We may not agree on the policies in that people have in the party system, and this is education or health care or social services. Yet I very sad. I become very concerned whenever I am sure we all have the same goals, same read in the papers or hear on the media, hear on objectives, and that is the welfare of the people the news about problems that a particular of Manitoba. We all have the same objectives of representative may have, whether it is in Quebec wanting to ensure that the people of Manitoba or Saskatchewan or wherever, the whole episode enjoy the highest standard of living possible; that of the Saskatchewan Conservative MLAs. This they have quality public services, quality is a tragedy. It is a tragedy fo r those individuals. education, quality health care, and so on. It is a tragedy for the province of Manitoba, but I say it is a tragedy for all of us. It is one of those Our differences, of course, are how we get episodes that also is undermining the confidence there. Our policy differences are quite that the public have in our system. 718 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 1999

So if any of us err or go astray, it does their particular concerns. They did not have to - reflect on all of us whether we like it or not, feel that they responded. You can have a because people very cynically say: oh, well, dictatorship if you do not like what we have. those damned politicians, what do you expect? This is really sad. Public office, in my view, is There are a number of threats to our political among the highest callings that one can pursue. system. There are a number of threats to what It is a public office. Holding a public office, you we offe r the people in the system we have. have the trust of the people, you have the Incidentally, I would say, Madam Speaker, I responsibility to serve your fe llow citizens. It is think the parliamentary system that we have, fo r one that is not a selfish calling, it is a selfless all its fa ilings, is perhaps one of the best systems calling. It is one that you give of yourself. we have in the world. Our neighbours to the Indeed, many members, and particularly those in south of course have what I would call the the cabinet, do sacrifice, and I know of many congressional system, where you have a division instances, their personal lives, their fam ily lives, of powers between the executive and legislative because of the time and effort and energy they branches, and you have a system whereby, put into performing their duties as an although there are parties, they do not have the administrator, as an elected official, many a firm, strict caucus system that we have. fam ily has paid the price fo r that. Therefore it leads to a Jot of difficulties, namely the opening up of individual members making I tell people who cynically say to me, well, them vulnerable to lobbies by various what do you expect, you people? There are individuals and groups within the United States. some people, it just boggles my mind the I think it is really sad when you find that many comments they will make about elected American senators and representatives are representatives. They are not talking about any influenced unduly by specific lobbies. There are party, they are just talking about elected people, all kinds of areas where lobbies are very and they make such horrible statements, I would effective. There is a gun lobby; there is a - not even want to stand up here and repeat them. tobacco lobby; there are lobbies on oil and gas; They are terribly negative, terribly uninformed. there are lobbies on just about everything under I like to ask them, well, what do you suggest? If the sun. you do not like our democratic system that we have where we have people who stand fo r office I am reminded, when I speak of the gun and try to do their best and fo r some reason or lobby, about a program I heard a fe w days ago other there is a failing or they pursue a policy where a U.S. state senator in Colorado was you do not like, you complain about it, but what speaking, I think it was on As It Happens, and do you suggest? What was your alternative? I she was talking about the National Rifle like to urge them to get into politics themselves. Association and it, as a very powerful lobby, I mean, do not sit there and complain. influencing the state legislators in Colorado where this tragedy occurred last week, where a Many people, incidentally, who do complain massacre occurred in this high school. At any are the people who have the least amount of rate, before the Colorado State Legislature is­ knowledge as to how the system works, whether and I do not know whether it has now been I am talking whether it is provincial, federal or withdrawn, but she said there is a bill, she was municipal. So I say to them: get into politics talking last week, before this state legislature yourself and do what you can, whatever party that is going to allow anyone in the State of you choose. Get involved and make it even Colorado to carry a hidden weapon. Anyone can more democratic, bring more people in. It is far carry a hidden weapon, and that law will better than any alternative. I often say, well, if countermand and overrule any municipal or you do not like this system, you can have Hitler. regional restriction on guns because a Jot of the You can have a dictatorial system. You can cities and towns in Colorado have certain have a Franco Spain or you can have a Stalin. restnctwns. This Jaw wiJI countermand that, He did not worry about public opinion. They will override that, and everyone will be able, - did not worry about all kinds of individuals and once the Jaw is passed, to carry a hidden gun. April 28, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 719

She was asked by the moderator, well, the comments made in the Monnin report, and surely this is not going to pass, or what is going one, of course, is the knowledge of the Premier to happen? She said it is going to pass, and she (Mr. Filmon) of this whole episode. If the said one of the reasons it is going to pass is Premier tells me to my face that he knew not of because of the influence of the National Rifle it, I would believe him and I would take him at Association, the gun lobby. Specific members, his word. But what is happening, and I can tell in effect, were in the pockets of the gun lobby. you, people on the street do not believe that he This is sad. You see other examples in the U.S. was totally ignorant of what was happening. Senate and in the U.S. House of Representatives These are people in Winnipeg, in Brandon, who where the tobacco lobby has a great influence just on their own bring it up and said that he and is preventing laws to be passed that would knew of it and if he did not know of it he should curtail the use of tobacco in the United States. have known of it because he was the Premier. At any rate, I am saying that even though we He was the boss, he was on top, and because the have our difficulties with the parliamentary people involved in the scandal were very close system, I think it is far better than what we see in to the Premier. the congressional system that is operating south of the border. Taras Sokolyk was campaign manager and the chief of the Premier's staff and had known We have problems and deficiencies, and I the Premier fo r 15 years. There was Jules think one which I would like to highlight is that Benson who was a key political strategist and there is probably too much executive control in head of the Treasury Board, which is a civil the parliamentary system. A premier or a prime service position. Admittedly, I recall back in the minister, let us say a prime minister, has far Schreyer years, we amended I guess it was The more control than a president of the United Civil Service Act to allow civil servants to be States. The president of the United States has to more engaged in politics, but it was never meant balance off his power against the Congress, both that the very senior people, key people, you the Senate and the House of Representatives. A know, would be in that. I mean if somebody prime minister in this country, once he is elected was working in the Highways department on a with a majority, has infinitely superior powers, road, or somebody was providing some technical and we can see this with Mr. Chretien right now. service in the Department of Health or What Mr. Chretien says is what goes in the Agriculture or whatever, we did not feel that we Government of Canada, and I think that is sad. should restrict that person from participating in That is far, far too much executive control. politics, providing certain rules were followed, you know, taking leave of absence, et cetera. * (1550) But here the head of the Treasury Board is a You see that in this Legislature, as well, very key civil service position. It is a very key where there is too much control in the hands of a position in the government, period. Many a premier, and I say that no matter what the person has said to me that the head of the intentions are of any premier. They may be very Treasury Board is probably the most powerful good intentions, but there is a lot of control in person in government, even more powerful than that person's hands, perhaps too much control. a lot of cabinet ministers. Then there is Gordon Maybe we should have a system of freer votes McFarlane, the party comptroller. There was a where people can vote on the basis of their Susan Hoplock mentioned in the report and of conscience, on the basis of what they believe course involved in this, who is a top appoint­ represents the interests of their particular ments official and campaign office manager. constituents rather than being bound, as we are, Then, of course, Allan Aitken, who is the Inter­ so closely and strictly by caucus solidarity on lake campaign manager. Cubby Barrett, former just about every issue. There is room for more PC Manitoba Fund board member and honorary free votes. lifetime PC member.

But, having said that, Madam Speaker, I As far as Mr. Aitken and Mr. Barrett want to tell you that we are all concerned about concerned me, I would consider them sort of 720 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 1999 local people. When I first heard about this, I organize the candidate of a second party in order - thought, well, this is a local thing. Something is to harm a third party." happening in the riding, whereby they are attempting to run another so-called native party Another quote: "I cannot ignore the fact that candidate to take votes away from the NDP and throughout this episode, especially during the come up the middle sort of thing. But then when investigation and at the hearings, some of these you get these other names that I mentioned­ witnesses exhibited a degree of arrogance or 'I Sokolyk, Benson, McFarlane, Hoplock-this is know better' attitude." beyond a constituency matter. This is involving the party itself, including the others who are And then another quote: "A considerable volunteers like Ami Thorsteinson the PC amount of time, effo rt and money was expended Manitoba Fund chair and also head of some by this Commission in order to confirm what government boards, then Bob Kozminski, a should have been freely admitted at the outset." long-time fundraiser fo r the PC party. So these "The bank records and other documentation of are key people who were involved with the the PC Party of Manitoba (Election) account of central party organization and in some instances other individuals had to be obtained and with the central government. examined to find out what really had occurred."

So these are comments made by the Chief So to that extent I was surprised, and I think Justice, and they are actually very shocking. We this is why people are concerned, because of can go on to all kinds of details. He goes into all who was involved. It was not simply a few kinds of details. On page 18, "I believe that this people at the constituency level who ran away plot had its origin in mid-March 1995 during a with some enthusiasm and did what they did. meeting held in Winnipeg in Sokolyk's office at Mr. Justice Monnin makes a number of quotes Party headquarters. In addition to Sokolyk, that I fo und very surprising. Page 16, he says: Aitken, Barrett and Trachuk were present." - "In all my years on the Bench, I never encountered as many liars in one proceeding as I At any rate, he refers to Gordon McFarlane did during this inquiry." This is incredible. who "breached the law in causing a fa lse [interjection] It is a quote. Another quote: "It is statement to be filed with Elections Manitoba disheartening indeed to realize that an oath to contrary to sees. 81 and 83(b) of the Act." He tell the truth means so little to some people." asks: "Why did he, Benson, as the top civil servant who was supposed to be out of the Another one: "A vote-rigging plot political realm, ask fo r the records, bank constitutes an unconscionable debasement of the statements and cancelled cheques of a political citizen's right to vote. To reduce the voting party and proceed to mark and note these rights of individuals is a violation of our entries? He had no business being there in the democratic system." Another quote: the basic first place." That is a quote from page 45. premise of the vote-rigging plot "was that aboriginal people in these ridings had Another quote from page 56: "Of these 350 historically voted fo r the NDP, but the cheques, an estimated 127 were flagged as 'aboriginal vote' would be split if there were indicating that the date, year, name of payee, and aboriginal candidates running. The attempt here the amount payable in figures and letters were in at vote splitting ...was in my opinion clearly Benson's handwriting. A similar number of unethical and morally reprehensible." coding slips or vouchers were prepared by Benson as well. It would appear from an This is Chief Justice Monnin's statement. examination of exhibit 52, that Benson went to These are not my statements. These are PC campaign headquarters and prepared cheques statements from the report. Page II from his and vouchers on least nine separate occasions." inquiry, Judge Monnin says: "Political mores have reached a dangerous low when one party Then on page 57, another quote: "Benson member can actively support his party, but sees obviously did not tell the whole truth regarding nothing objectionable in helping to finance and the extent of his involvement in the 1995 April 28, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 721 election campaign." "I am of the view that independent returning officer. I had mentioned Benson's involvement was improper, and that this to the member fo r Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) certain party members failed to see the clear earlier. I think my experience has been that distinction between a civil servant and a party returningof ficers are usually defeated candidates volunteer." from former elections or people who are very active for the party in power. It would be far At any rate, Madam Speaker, there is a lot of better, it would be the right thing to do, if we shocking detail in the report. I am referring to could somehow or other change the act so that in information that is public, has been published for future we have returningof ficerswho are trained all to read and see. He goes into detail on many and who are selected in an unbiased way and members, many Conservative members, party provide independent service. members that were involved. He talks about cover-up, about lying, about breaking the law I can tell you from my own experience, and obstructing justice to inquiry lawyers and although I survived, in the last election the investigators and including committing perjury person who was the returning officer in my under oath. constituency was a person I had run against about 10 years before, and it made me a little bit * (1600) nervous. It made me a bit nervous. Especially, I can remember I came with about three to four At any rate, Madam Speaker, I will not go times the number of signatures I had needed on on and on about this. Others have dealt with this my nomination papers, and I presented them in at some length. I just say that I am shocked. I plenty of time, and the returning officer is just in conclusion say that I am shocked. I supposed to give you a certificate, a receipt. He thought originally it was not the right thing to refused to give me the receipt then because he do. I thought it was a local constituency matter. said he had to study them to make sure they It turned out to be centrally organized and co­ were truly citizens and resident in Brandon East, ordinated. It is a sad day fo r the Conservative even though by that time I had been a member Party. It is a sad day for Manitoba. It is a sad fo r 25 years, and, I mean, you could see, incident fo r Manitoba. obviously, these were people who live in the riding, signed three times the number, fo ur times I agree with all the recommendations in the the number that I needed. So he gave me a bill. It comes out of the inquiry. I have just one temporary receipt instead of the official receipt. comment, though. He talks about a code of It made me a little bit nervous because it was a ethics that should be incorporated in each party's lot of work to get those names. At any rate, the constitution, and I think this is sad. This really election came off, but that sort of thing-and who should not be necessary. It should not be knows what else has happened or did happen necessary to have a code of ethics, no more than because we did not have a totally unbiased and it should be necessary for each member to sign a independent returning officer. He or she can code of ethics fo r her or his own conduct. It make things difficultfo r certain candidates. should not be necessary. People are elected, they have responsibilities, or they are appointed At any rate, Madam Speaker, I put those fe w to party positions and they have responsibilities. thoughts on the record. I believe there are others We should expect the highest standards of in the Chamber who would like to contribute to honesty and integrity from those people. It the debate, and I certainly look forward to their should not be necessary fo r someone to put in remarks. Thankyou. the code of a party what is right and what is wrong. This is sad as well. Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Madam Speaker, I would like to put a few words on the There are other recommendations. Some of record today in support of Bill 17. I want to them are minor. Some of them are much more begin by saying that this is a very sad time for significant. I would have liked to have seen one people in this House; in fact, fo r people in the suggestion, and that is the setting up of an province. 722 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 1999

- You know, Madam Speaker, this plot, this Friesen) says, they would have learned how to vote-splitting plot that brought on the Monnin do it right. They would have theorized that inquiry and the subsequent report, this plot was Nelson Contois had received 118 votes for a hatched at the highest levels of the Tory party. $5,000 expenditure. Well, you know, if we We are not talking about some low-level person could just double that to $10,000 maybe we in a constituency who got out of hand; we are could double the vote total to 240, and that talking about people as high as you can get in would have been, sort of, the ground rules would the Conservative Party, people who were have been established. So this time Taras and running the campaign. So it is no surprise to me the rest of the high level Conservatives who ran that the Conservatives say, well, you know, this this operation would have had kind of the basis is no big deal, that it was not successful. That of how to proceed here. They could have seems to be their reason fo r saying that it is not expanded it into more constituencies. They serious. They say, well, it was not successful. could have increased the amount of money involved, and they could have fo und themselves Well, Madam Speaker, let us take a look at more serious candidates. Swan River, as an example. In Swan River, the successful candidate, Rosann Wowchuk from So I think that the people who brought this the NDP, won by only 36 votes. Now, had this whole scandal to the public did the public, did candidate been a little bit more successful, the the whole system a very big service to nip this MLA would have been one Fred Betcher, PC thing in the bud now before it became a real candidate, with no credibility, and we would serious and permanent aspect of the electoral have been sitting here fo ur years later trying to process in this province. unscramble the omelet that these people created. So this is not a minor happening. This could very well have been successful in that riding. An Honourable Member: Did we get thanked?

-- The other problem or the observation I have Mr. Maloway: The member fo r Crescentwood here is what would happen if these people had asks: "did we get thanked?" That is a very good gotten real serious? What would have happened question because the people in this party sitting if they had brought out some of that real Tory across from us should be thankful that this was money? If Big Bob had pulled in the discovered at this point before it got any worse. wheelbarrow and rolled out $100,000 to independent candidates, they could have been * (1610) successful. But you know, Madam Speaker, it is all part As a matter of fact, when you listen to Bob of this win-at-all-cost mentality in this Kozminski's comments in the Monnin inquiry government. We only have to look back at the where he says, essentially, that he would do Premier's history in politics to discover that that anything that it took. So using that as a is basically his modus operandi, win at all costs. mentality that runs these people, then it is not And, you know, so fa r this Premier has been­ inconceivable that this time around they might you know, he reminds me of the cat with the use some real money, that they might find some nine lives, the Houdini. He wins his leadership real candidates and that they would attempt to against big odds, and I think he kind of vote split, vote fracture, on a larger scale than developed a fo rmula there on how to do it. He they did in the past. was criticized at that time. He was criticized at that time in the leadership with doing all sorts of I guess that is probably what would have irregular things, but he managed to get through happened had we not uncovered this scandal at that process successfully. Then a couple of this point, because you see they would have years later when his own party were trying to do done a bit of studying. They would have studied him in, the fo rmer member fo r Pembina was what went wrong with the previous program, trying to do him in and other members in the and they would have decided-[interjection] That caucus, he was saved by a snowstorm that time. is right. As the member for Wolseley (Ms. So he had a natural disaster to save his skin. April 28, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 723

Well, now he has a different set of process. You know, years ago elections were challenges, and I am not so sure that he is going fo ught and it is well documented in different to be successful this time. I talk to a lot of parts of the country where it was common fo r people in a day and I can tell you definitely the people to buy votes of people, where in the bloom is off the rose with this Leader. I do not Maritimes, I believe, people would be paid in know how they are going to conduct this next rum or paid in money, and the system was so campaign, but certainly you know with PC off sophisticated that they would send somebody in the signs and now the Filmon Team off the and he would bring the ballot out andthey would signs, my suspicion is this is going to be the mark it outside the polling station, and then they Donovan Bailey campaign or it is going to be the would give it to the next voter, and the next local candidate will be on the signs. It will be voter would go in. That way they always knew the Vic Toews campaign and Filmon will how the person had voted. disappear. But once again, that is their problem. They will have to sort out how they plan to deal Through a series of changes over the years with the Premier, who in fact may be not the we thought anyway that we had brought the positive fo rce that he was in the past campaigns process into a more reputable type of and in fact he may drag them down in this environment and put some limits on what people election. could do. In 1958, I believe, in Manitoba we established an Independent Boundaries Com­ He may in fact pay the price from the mission and on the Boundaries Commission cumulative effects of all of the different were three independent people. That Boundaries activities that have gone on on his behalf over Commission, we might have some arguments the years. I say "on his behalf' because I do not about it over the years as to what we think of the pretend to know or to be able to say definitively boundaries. That Boundaries Commission has that he knew or he did not know about these probably been a plus in the sense it has taken things, but clearly what we see here is a culture some of the suspicion out of the process, unlike that promotes that kind of activity, that rewards B.C., where we had Gracie's finger. A number in fact that kind of activity. In fact, when the of years ago where we had-if we were in B.C., people that helped him in his leadership Armstrong's Point and Wolseley would end up campaign, once he was successful he proceeded over in Crescentwood or Fort Rouge. They cut to reward them with jobs. Of course, there were the boundaries across rivers and stuff like that, other messes that came out of that process, so he so we can all agree that an independent is basically I think kind of operating on a limited boundaries commission is a good idea, served us time at this point and he may survive this. We well, worked well and perhaps there are some do not know, time will tell. changes that are required there too and we could maybe look at those in the future. Another area that we are going to have to take a look at sometime, what happened back in But once we got into the '70s, the federal 1988, the famous Jim Walding story that is yet government brought in the new Elections to be told, and who was the leader of the party Financing Act I believe it was '72 and, at that when all that was happening and who did not time, the firsttime we had public financing. We know, did not know what was going on. actually had people getting tax credits fo r [interjection] And, yes, what did Frank Clark donations to parties, and we also had a rebate know? That is right. So the leadership has to system whereby if you got more than 10 or 15 start at the top and what we have got here is a percent of the vote, you got 50 percent of your very loose style of leadership, a delegation of expenses back, and in return fo r that concession responsibility to people around and the whole we were forced to fo llow some rules. concept of plausible deniability. You know, I guess back in 1973, Richard Nixon found out how far he could take that, that whole process. This only makes sense. There were limits placed on how much parties and candidates A number of years ago, and I think that could spend in campaigns, and there were other where we are today came about over a whole rules that had to be followed. The rules were 724 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 1999 there because we were talking about public of improprieties going on. Now the people - money in the system. I think that we are now at involved in this scandal, I indicated that they just another stage in that system where we are went to the top of the Conservative Party. You tightening up, where we have to tighten up the know, Madam Speaker, it is even worse than rules on how that money is spent and basically that. We are talking about nothing short of establish a trail to fo llow the money so we know cronyism in this party. When I saw the list of that it is being spent properly. people that were involved in this scandal, it is as if these people do not trust anybody in their own You know that is an inconvenience and party. Like it is the husband-and-wife team something that we have to live with and some here. You have got Mr. Benson in a high more complications and bookwork that we all position in the organization and signing cheques, will have to fo llow now, partly because of what I believe, and his wife is signing cheques. I comes out of this scandal with the mean talk about keeping it in the family; in fact, Conservatives. It is interesting to note that it is in the same bed. fe derally, the Reform Party who were dead set against all this public financing, once they got An Honourable Member: It is all in the elected, they were very, very reluctant to send fa mily. those cheques back from Elections Canada. I think some of them may have and I think some * (1620) of them may have kept them at the end of the day. So that is the price we have had. Mr. Maloway: It is all in the fam ily, the member fo r Brandon East says. Then we have Now, in the 1980s, we developed a Gord McFarlane being, I believe, the provincial public financing scheme similar to the comptroller, and his wife is the official Tory fe deral, at which time there were tight limits lawyer. I mean, get a life. Can you guys not brought in on what we could do with the money. find anybody out there, other than husband-and­ - Once again, we are simply making some wife teams, to take all these top jobs? improvements in this area. But what we are Conservative members, it does not give a very going to see, I think, and I do not know how far good signal to all these up and coming young this is going to go because when you look at Tories that are hoping to achieve positions of countries-and I am told, I think, it was Jamaica a influence and power in the party. How can they number of years ago brought in a public have a good fe eling fo r this when they see these financing scheme that was so comprehensive top positions all being held by husband-and-wife that people would not put up election signs teams? Not only that, but just friends of the unless they were paid fo r them. I mean that is Leader. the extreme. That practically takes you to the silly season, but that is where you could For example, did you know that when these ultimately, if you fo llowed it through its natural people pick candidates, the qualifications seem progression, end up with public financing. So to be, like, what the connection is directly to the there is this tug of war in the system over Leader? They ran the Leader's, the Premier's whether we should proceed further in public (Mr. Filmon), barber/hairdresser against me last financing, whetherwe should stay where we are, time. Right? They have the Premier's hunting or whether we should as the Reform Party partner in Rossmere, the Premier's dentist's wife suggested back off further or completely. I think in Fort Garry. That is another story. The at the end of the day, the Reform Party decided official agent of the dentist's wife in Fort Garry to sacrifice its exuberance and early is Gord McFarlane, whose brother is the Deputy philosophical approach in favour of the cash. Attorney General. And, who is the Attorney General? Gord is vetting the liquor licence But, having said that, if we are going to applications, and who is the minister? I mean work within a system like this, then we have to the member fo r Lakeside (Mr. Enns) just must take extra care with the way we conduct our shake his head because he has been in that party affairs, because the public should not be fo r centuries, a long time, and he has seen all of - financing campaigns in which there are all sorts the skullduggery and no doubt participated in April 28, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 725 some of it years ago, so he would be a good municipal election. They only had one problem. barometer as to whether things have gotten He could not win that seat in the municipal worse or better. council seat of Daniel Mcintyre because, among other things, there was a popular Liberal I know back in the old days, the Spivak­ councillor, Amaro Silva. But they knew how to Lyon fights. There was no picnic. These people do that. were fightingeach other tooth and nail every bit as tough as now, so they certainly know how the In Daniel Mcintyre, there is a large Filipino­ system works. To me, this is just the same thing Canadian community. They knew they had to that has been going on for years, but I doubt that split that vote, so they found one of their in those days, in the Lyon government and the members in good standing who had, in fact, run previous Tory governments, you had this fo r them, of Filipino background, and put him on cronyism that you do now with the husband-and­ the ballot, printed the signs for him in the same wife teams running the top positions in the party. party colors, black and green, then proceeded to I think it just points to the paranoia of the vote fo r Harvey Smith, then successfully existing Leader, of the Premier, in this province. succeeded to split the Filipino vote in Daniel Mcintyre and did it successfully. And they do I could go on fo r quite a long time here. I not even blush, because they do it all the time, have only finished a few pages. The acting and they do it successfully. Whip is suggesting that the member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) wants to talk about this My party does not know how to do it. They problem. I think I will save a little bit for demonstrated that very clearly. That, Madam another day. I hope to be around after the next Speaker, is vote rigging of the highest order and election, so maybe there will be another done very, very successfully. I compliment the occasion where I can complete my speech on hierarchy of the New Democrats in showing us this subject. how it should be done, if you want to engage in that kind of politics. Hon. Harry Enos (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, I, like the rest of my colleagues Now, Madam Speaker, does anybody doubt on this side, have listened to members opposite my word? Does somebody want to phone ex­ not just in this Chamber but for the past four or Councillor Silva to see whether everything I five months on this issue. Allow me to put on have put on the record is not actually the way it the record very clearly that I am mad, I am occurred. They connived in the hierarchy of the embarrassed, and I am sorry that some party New Democratic leadership and said they are members participated, in Judge Monnin's words, going to get their fo rmer colleague of the in a stupid, wooden-headed, dumb plot, or Legislature back on the City Council. But they however else he might want to describe it. did their demographics. They looked at the constituency. They knew that Amaro Silva had That all took place, and I am mad about it, proven himself to be a capable councillor and but I take some comfort at the same time that the would not be defeated easily. sheer clumsiness of it, the sheer stupidity of people who have otherwise shown themselves to So then they came up with a scheme. They be adept business people, comptrollers, found a candidate to run as an independent, accountants, demonstrates beyond all proof although the New Democrats printed their signs, necessary that the Conservative Party of the same colors even, black and green. In fact, Manitoba does not do these kinds of things. the person who was the patsy fo r them, he was just paying off some past debts, because he was This conduct is alien to us, or else how a prominent member of the New Democrats. He could you explain how stupid, how clumsily it had run fo r the New Democrats before. Then was done as compared to the New Democrats, the party callously disregarded him and who only seven months ago wanted to makesure instructed everybody to vote for Harvey Smith. that a former colleague of ours, of mine, return That is how the Liberal councillor was defeated. to this Chamber one Harvey Smith in the Talk about callous use of an ethnic minority. 726 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 1999

Now, just take away Filipino and substitute I am going to be having my nomination meeting - aboriginal. Talk about callous disregard for an in Stonewall. He was the Liberal organizer. He ethnic minority. You hypocrites. Shame on was, in fact, a vice-president of the provincial you. You show us how it is done. You do it Liberal Party, but he contributed to my successfully. You do it successfully. That is the campaign, at least five campaigns that I ran, difference. That is the difference between you while he was living. He would say: Harry, here and us. The very concept of it is so alien to the is $50 or here is $100. You are doing a good Conservative Party that otherwise competent job; I want you to keep on fighting. Is there people demonstrated how clumsily, how stupidly something unethical about it? Is there something they-[ interjection] immoral about that? Of course there is nothing immoral. Well, how else do you explain people who have been tremendously successful in business So let us cut a little bit of the "we are holier and other walks of life, how could they have than thou" attitude and like that. Let us at least handled it that way? And for that matter, on this acknowledge and put on the record that only issue, let me-with the sanctity of this Chamber, I seven or eight months ago in the last municipal want to be careful not to suggest anything of election the most successful vote-rigging scheme Justice Monnin, who, after all, has not ever perpetuated in the city of Winnipeg was experienced the political arena. carried out by the New Democratic Party.

The idea of individuals contributing to more Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam than one political party is not new. I sat in this Speaker, the Minister of Agriculture and Chamber and it always bothered me that a lot of member fo r Lakeside (Mr. Enns) is always a the business community, people who have tough act to fo llow. contributed to my party, to my own elections, for eight years contributed to Ed Schreyer's New I wanted to make a fe w comments on Bill - Democratic government. We know that. There 17. I can understand why the members opposite is, in fact, an unstated business policy among the are very sensitive on this matter and on this business community, and there is nothing wrong issue. Their party has left a black mark on with it. In terms of them contributing and democracy in our province. It amazes me in playing a role in public affairs, there are many listening to this debate some of the businesses that say that if we have $1 ,000 to defensiveness and some of the arguments for give for politics, they will give 60 percent to the defence that they are coming up with. ruling party and 40 percent to the opposition party. That has been mighty tough on the When I look at what we are dealing with in Liberal Party lately. That has been kind of tough Bill 17, the recommendations are trying to on the Liberal Party, except that the Liberal ensure that the kind of vote-rigging scheme that Party has that one great advantage. They are the went on in the '95 election never comes to be God-given, meant-to-rule party of Canada most again. I think Elections Manitoba-and their years, and aspiring judges and others will always name has also been tarnished-now has to come be found to run for the candidates of their party, up with recommendations that we see in Bill 17, and their coffers do get amply replenished from or amendments to The Elections Act as we see in time to time. Bill 17, to try and reduce the likelihood that, if there was ever something like this again in the

* (1630) province of Manitoba in an election, they would be more effective in trying to deal with it. But what is immoral, what is unethical about a Bob Kozminski or an Ami Thorsteinson So the amendments are there so that handing out some money for people of other Elections Manitoba can more effectively get parties? What is there? I had an insurance man documents that would be required for an inquiry, who has since deceased, an insurance man, an so that they would have a longer period of time agent in Stonewall, and he would not have open to them. There would not be the same minded me using it. He has since deceased, but statute of limitations of limiting them if there April 28, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 727 was a question to occur again similar as in the are going to be in the code of conduct or the '95 elections where allegations are made and ethical codes, then that hopefullywill help. But, there is a reasonable possibility to believe that as I said earlier, if the ruling political party in a there has been some kind of vote rigging or government is willing to ignore a law that is a bribing or buying of an election as we have seen statutory law in a province, I would say that in this case. codes of conduct are going to be quite easy fo r them to ignore. There are more provisions fo r improvements in the auditing of financial records and ensuring It is interesting when you become an MLA that records are kept because, as we have seen in or you seek public office. We are just regular the Tory party, there must have been big holes in people. A lot of us have had jobs that are not the files because records were there, records very special. We are teachers, we are mechanics were lost, records were found, records were and machinists, we are lawyers, we are missing again. So we have improvements in the salespeople, we are farmers, we are nurses, requirement to ensure that records are kept. regular people, and I do no think that we are expected to have any sort of abilities or expertise Then there is the whole area of ethics, the or any other higher ethical or moral standard recommendations now that parties are going to than anyone else. Once we do become elected have to come fo rward with policies fo r ethics, it and we do seek office, there is an expectation by is interesting to think that any kind of code of the public that we are going to rise to a standard ethics could have stopped this. If a party such as of moral and ethical behaviour that is going to be the governing Conservative Party in Manitoba is an example. That is what is so disconcerting so willing to step over The Elections Act in about this because when you talk to people, it is Manitoba, what is to lead us to believe that they not just the fact that this vote-rigging scandal are going to fo llow a simple party code of ethics occurred, but it is the extent to try and cover it or code of conduct? So those things may be put up. So at least come fo rward, and when there is in place. a mistake to admit that, as the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enos) has said, it is wrong­ Some of the processes I think that could also headed, it is stupid, it is clumsy. If that had been be put in place would be to ensure that parties done at the beginning, a lot of expense and a lot have information about what The Elections Act of problems would have been dealt with. The are given to candidates that are seeking question I have when I look at this is how could nomination and candidates that are indeed something like this in a provincial party with a nominated by their party. As we have seen since long history of the Progressive Conservative then, just in this sitting in the House, maybe Party in Manitoba, how could it go this far? these things occur somewhat innocently, somewhat without malice or intent of wrong And you would have to wonder where did it doing, but people just do not know better, and first come from? In whose mind, in which group that is often what ethics are about-are you going of people was this first concocted, or imagined to make sure when there is a question that you or envisioned? find out what is actually in the law, or are you just going to assume that there is nothing wrong, An Honourable Member: Allan Aitken fo r example, using the public lists of medical clients, chiropractor clients, in order to do Ms. Cerilli: The minister for Lakeside can put fundraising fo r a party. that on the record, if he likes. When it comes to be known that it is not just a small minority We can say that members opposite and their group in a constituency, when it does go right to candidates who are nominees are doing this the top of the ruling party in power in a innocently and that they may not realize what provincial government, that is also when it raises they are doing. So in that sense, having political serious concerns. When the extent has been parties put some of these things out front, make gone to to try and hide it and to shift the sure that people who are running fo r nomination responsibility, when we look at the people who have the information. If those kinds of things have had their careers ruined, who have had their 728 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 1999 names dragged through the mud on this, some of have their names disputed, and then the Premier, them must be sitting back know and scratching the one who should be responsible, is left, and I their heads, because when we come into the think that he may feel, the Premier may feel that House every day, who is still here? The man in he has gotten away with this. charge, the Premier (Mr. Filmon). The one who should be ultimately responsible has had I have a number of other issues, how, as everyone around him fa ll in order that he can members on our side of the House have also still remain the head of the government and the talked about, this is part of a trend, that it is not head of his party. I am sure that that point is not an isolated incident. But, Madam Speaker, I will being lost on many of the rank-and-file members just close by saying that in this day and age I ofthe Conservative Party. think that we have gotten away from election campaigns and politics being about trying to The other thing that I want to mention that I have debate with dignity and about influencing think is really deplorable-and I listened to the people to cast their ballot based on a persuasive member fo r Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) speak on argument and to vote fo r policies that are going the bill and a number of the adjectives that he to be in the best interests of all people. I hope used, of the distaste, the fact that a lot of us were that with these new amendments, that the next not even planning on speaking on this bill election, the coming election in 1999, is going to because a lot of us realized that this is making be a fa ir election, and it is going to be fo ught on people more and more cynical about politics all the basis of policy. Thank you. the time. Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): I rise to * (1640) close debate on Bill 17. I just want to put on the record that the allegations of the member fo r But I want to mention the fact that this was Lakeside (Mr. Enns) are absolutely ridiculous an attempt to take advantage of aboriginal and untrue. I would challenge him to repeat - people, who are often feeling very disenfran­ them outside the Chamber which I think would chised in the electoral system as it is-the be highly unlikely, and with those fe w remarks demonstrations that go on across the province by we are going to pass Bill 17 and, in fact, give it aboriginal people who are trying to have some Royal Assent. Thank you, Madam Speaker. type of voice and influence, the political decision making that goes on, yet again in the Madam Speaker: Is the House ready fo r the Chamber today we heard the fact that on another question? The question before the House is third proposal on resource extraction, that aboriginal reading, Bill 17. Is it the pleasure of the House people are not at the table. They are not being to adopt the motion? consulted. So it speaks to the attitude by the governing party to aboriginal people, and do not fo rget it was the Minister of Northern Affairs Some Honourable Members: Agreed. who at one time said: people in the North and aboriginal communities, they do not vote right. Madam Speaker: Agreed? Agreed and so So to think that this was an attempt to ordered. The Lieutenant Governor will be manipulate aboriginal people, I think that is the arriving shortly to give Royal Assent to the bill. other thing that is really galling and really disturbing and distastefulabout this. Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): I look to my colleagues opposite. Do When people read about this type of thing in they want a fe w minutes to allow fo r the the paper and the media, I think it makes it more Lieutenant Governor to arrive, or would they difficult for any party to try and recruit like to proceed into Private Members? He volunteers to take on those important positions, should be available in about three or fo ur like being an official agent for a constituency minutes, given the time that he indicated. So we campaign, when they look at the fact that people may just wait his arrival then, Madam Speaker. surrounding the Premier, some of whom are in volunteer positions in their party, have had to An Honourable Member: Recess. April 28, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 729

Madam Speaker: Is there agreement? [agreed] The hour being 5 p.m., private members' hour. Th e Ho use recessed at 4:45p.m. * (1650)

PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS After Recess PROPOSED RESOLUTIONS Th e Ho use resumed at 4:49p.m. Res. 5-SchoolTaxes ROYAL ASSENT Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): I move, Deputy Sergeant-at-Arms (Mr. Garry Clark): seconded by the member for Crescentwood (Mr. His Honour the Lieutenant Governor. Sale),

His Ho nour Peter Liba, Lieutenant Governor of "WHEREAS in 1988, the Provincial the Province of Ma nitoba, having entered the Government was paying 76 percent of the total Ho use and being seated on the throne, Ma dam cost of education-the rest being the special levy Sp eaker addressed His Ho nour in the fo llowing or school tax; and words : "WHEREAS in 1998, the Provincial Madam Speaker: May it please Your Honour: Governmentwas contributing only 67 percent of the total public education bill; and The Legislative Assembly, at its present session, passed a bill, which in the name of the "WHEREAS school divisions have been Assembly, I present to Your Honour and to forced to reduce classroom opportunities and which bill I respectfully request Your Honour's increase school taxes to backfill the cuts; and assent: "WHEREAS in the lead up to the 1990 Bill 17-The Elections Amendment and election, the Premier told Manitobans that it Elections Finances Amendment Act; Loi would be the goal of his Government to increase modifiant Ia Loi electorate et Ia Loi sur le the Provincial Government's contribution to 80 financementdes campagnes electorates. percent; and Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): In Her Majesty's name, His Honour the Lieutenant "WHEREAS as a result of these cuts, school Governor doth assent to this bill. taxes all across the province have been escalating, causing a great burden on Manitoba His Ho nour was then pleased to retire. families; and

Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House "WHEREAS residents of communities like Leader): Madam Speaker, I look to the Selkirk, Neepawa and Brandon have averaged opposition benches if there is a will to call it six double digit increases in the last two years; and o'clock. "WHEREAS early in its mandate, the Some Honourable Members: No. Provincial Government reduced the property tax credit from $325 to $250, which translated into a Mr. Praznik: No. Then, Madam Speaker, is $75 property tax increase; and there a will to call it five o'clock fo r private members' hour? "WHEREAS according to the Provincial Auditor, there is a $565 million 'Fiscal Madam Speaker: Is it the will of the House to Stabilization Fund' which has been built up in call it five o'clock? [agreed] part becauseeducation has been underfunded. 730 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 1999

"THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Education minister (Mr. McCrae) likes to talk Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the about. Let us talk about real dollars fo r real Premier to take responsibility for this students in real classrooms being taught by real unnecessary financial burden on Manitoba teachers. This government has cut over $482 per families; and pupil in purchasing power from our public schools. That is not a phoney percentage like "BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this the minister tries to use; that is an actual amount Assembly urge the Minister of Education to of money; that is $482 less fo r every pupil in consider providing adequate and stable funding Manitoba's public schools. to public education." Since 1993-94, provincial revenues have Motion presented. increased by a billion dollars per year. Of course, whether it is the current Finance minister Mr. Struthers: Madam Speaker, one of the or the previous Finance minister, we have things that I have noticed with this government trouble fo llowing all the little moves that they is a very unaccountable way in which it talks make to try to hide some of the surplus that they about its funding levels to priorities such as have been seeing every year because they cannot education and to health care and to some others. have the people of Manitoba think that they are One of the examples that I want to put fo rth is running a surplus every year, huge surpluses, the way one Education minister afterthe next, on and still reducing fu nding to education, which is behalf of this government, misuses percentages what they are doing. So what we have seen to try to make their funding levels look bigger happen is over the course of I 0 years, the than what they are. They use percentages to try amount of school division tax collected in 1988 to cover the fact that they are actually putting being $208 million, in 1998 rising to $377 fe wer dollars into education each and every year million. It makes sense that as this government that this government has been in power. backs out of its commitments to fund public - schools, somebody has to pick up that slack. The current Education minister (Mr. Who would that be? Well, in a lot of cases, in McCrae) fa lls into this trap, unfortunately, as most cases, it has to be the local school division, well. It was just last week, again, I heard this so they have to raise taxes or cut programs to minister refer to the percentage of the budget make up fo r this government's cutting. that is spent on education. Madam Speaker, a percent is a relative term. They are able to talk Madam Speaker, if you take a look at the about a percent increase in the education part of increases that school divisions in our province their budget, because the rest of their budget has have had to backfill fo r the cuts of this been hacked and slashed. The total budget is government, that would translate, that would be smaller, and even though the amount of money equivalent to an 8-point increase in provincial being put into education is smaller too, it only income tax. Now, this is the government who seems as if it takes up a larger percent of the talks about, who bragged last year in the budget budget. It does not mean there is an increase of of reducing the income tax from 52 percent of 19 or 20 or 21 percent, like the Education the federal level to 50 percent. minister likes to say. It means that part of the budget having to be spent on education rises Let us look at the whole picture. The relative to what they have cut in agriculture and backfill that school divisions have to do to make natural resources and environment and highways up fo r this government's cuts relates to an 8- and health care and all the rest. It does not have point increase in Manitoba's income tax rate. anything to do with anything else other than Well, Madam Speaker, in the city of Winnipeg, wanting to cover up the cuts that this the average home has seen an increase of over government have foisted upon the people of 55 percent in school division taxes since 1990, a Manitoba. It is a dishonest way of doing things. 55 percent increase. That represents the number of increases that local school divisions have had Let us take a look at some figures that are to approve in order to backfill the cuts that this not based on phoney percentages like the government has madeto public education. April 28, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 731

It is not just happening in the city of not just the current minister, but it has been a Winnipeg. Those of us living in rural Manitoba policy of this government. One Education have been faced with the same kind of lack of minister afterthe next has done the same thing to support fo r public schools from this government taxpayers in this province. That represents a 7. 7 as they see here in our capital city. For example, point increase in income tax. Of course, to make Brandon School Division taxes jumped 14 up that difference, school divisions have had to percent in 1998. The Minister ofEducation (Mr. raise their levies. McCrae) will know that. The next year, this year, they increased by 9 percent. That means As well, Madam Speaker, this is the same that this Minister of Education, the member fo r government that reduced the property tax credit. Brandon West, and his colleague before him, They did that back in 1993. That is a tax have reduced the real dollars to schools in increase. You can cut it up any way you like; Brandon School Division, and they have been you can put whatever fancy rationale around it, fo rcing the local Brandon School Division to but it is a tax increase. You increased the tax by take one of two courses: one, cut in order that $75 by decreasing the tax credit from $325 to you do not have to raise taxes; or two, raise the $250. You can cut it and slice it any way you taxes yourself. like; you raised taxes.

No doubt in the next provincial election, Madam Speaker, there are several ways that there will be signs around Brandon saying re­ school divisions and schools have had to cope elect the Filmon team because we have not with this government's lack of commitment to raised taxes. Madam Speaker, under that sign, I public education. On the one hand, school would suggest that the member seeking re­ divisions are fo rced with either cutting election in Brandon West put up another sign programs, laying off teachers, laying off straightening out the false claim that they have teachers' aides, not ordering textbooks that are not raised taxes. The sign underneath should say needed, cancelling computer orders, or they have we got the school division to raise taxes for us to raise their own taxes. In some divisions, they because that is what is happening. have done that. Most divisions have done a combination of the two, but they are getting to It is not just Brandon. Neepawa, part of the point now where they cannot cut any further Beautiful Plains School Division, Neepawa saw and they know that. So they have had to turn to an 8-percent increase this year, 8 percent on top the local taxpayer on behalf of this government. of 11 percent the year before, 20 percent over two years because this government cut the There is another way that this is playing out, funding for public schools. Not a phoney Madam Speaker, in our schools. More and more percentage like the minister talks about, these of our students are being asked to pay for the are real dollars being taken out of our public things that are absolutely necessary for learning schools. That is not being committed to an to take place in classrooms. More students are investment in education. That is simply selling chocolate bars than I can ever remember, offloading your problems onto somebody else, and I have been involved in education fo r so that you can be re-elected in the next election. awhile. More students are organizing yard sales. People are seeing through this, Madam Speaker. Students and teachers and parent advisory Thompson residents saw their bill increase by 10 councils are having to organize garage sales. percent in '98 and 4 percent this year in 1999. They are doing walkathons. They are doing all sorts of fundraisers, car washes to pay fo r * (1700) textbooks. You know, if this government doubts what I am saying, go check it out. Talk to the Madam Speaker, I had mentioned already parent advisory councils, and they will tell you that in 1988 school division taxes amounted to that they have gone from parent advisory $208 million and that in 1998 they amounted to councils that were advising on education and the $377 million. That represents $169 million, and needs of the students to simply being asked to that is an increase that this government has contribute to their children's education by offloaded over its course of power in Manitoba, fundraising. 732 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 1999

You know, the other day in Question Period Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education - the governmenttried to make a big deal, that, oh, and Training): Madam Speaker, I am sure you it has always happened this way; there has can imagine how delighted I was that the always been fundraising at the school level; honourable member fo r Dauphin (Mr. Struthers) students have always been asked to go whether it should raise this matter in the way that he has was a Liberal government or an NDP govern­ because he is sitting beside the honourable ment or a Conservative government. Well, that member fo r Crescentwood (Mr. Sale), whom I is just not right, Madam Speaker. have on record as telling us that people are not taxed to the limit in this province and there is I think back to when I was in high school. lots of room to tax people more. The honourable The Swan Valley School band was taking a trip member fo r Crescentwood will not take issue to Europe. The band was over there fo r a good with that because he knows dam well that is his part of the summer in 1977, and they raised position and has been fo r some time. money fo r that. They raised money in a variety of different ways, raffles, you name it. It was an That is why I am pleased because this debate expensive trip. The difference between then and this afternoon sets out some very defining now is that in 1977 students were raising money matters that show the clear differentiation that to go to Europe to play their instruments in a people can make between my honourable band and today they are raising money to buy colleagues opposite and the colleagues that I am textbooks to read about Europe. That is the so pleased to work with on this side of the difference. House. I and my government are clearly and totally committed to the education of our The Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) can children. We have demonstrated that fo r II ignore it all he likes. He can put all kinds of years on this side of the House. Each of our excuses around this if he wants. The cold, hard budgets demonstrates that education continues to facts are that in 1977 they were raising money to be the No. 2 spending priority of government, go to Europe. In 1999 they are raising money to fo llowing only Health department spending, so - read about Europe because now- with that in mind I am interested to hear the honourable member fo r Dauphin because he An Honourable Member: Get on the Internet. tears to shreds the platform, the key election platform policy being vaunted these days by the Mr. Struthers: The Minister of Industry, Trade New Democrats. and Tourism (Mr. Tweed) just thinks that everybody in the province can automatically get I say "these days" because it is a late on the Internet. That is a total lack of knowledge conversion to that concept that we are going to of what is going on out there in rural Manitoba. keep the things that Filmon got right. All of a The minister should go to Pelican Rapids or the sudden, after all these years of opposing minister should go to Valley River First Nation. balanced budgets, that is one of the things they The minister should go to many of my have zeroed in on. They are going to have a consituents in Dauphin and tell them that attitude little trouble with this because the honourable that he just used now. It tells me that this member for W olseley (Ms. Friesen), the government supports an inaccessible, out-of­ honourable member fo r Dauphin (Mr. Struthers) date, old-fashioned view of education. today, the honourable member fo r Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) daily and other honourable members Madam Speaker, they are out of touch, and I on the opposition side of this House demand think the government should make this a high more spending from government. priority going into the next election campaign and let the people of Manitoba decide whether or Now what is really interesting about it is that not they enjoying backfilling through their their demands do not add up, their rhetoric does property taxes the cuts of this government to not add up to what is achievable. They know it, public schools. and the more this is talked about, the louder the heckling becomes because they are very Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. sensitive about this. This is a very, very serious April 28, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 733 debate going on within the back rooms of the Oh, let us not fo rget highways, because New Democratic Party. I wish I had my there is an area where a lot of spending could clippings today, because we know that Errol well be done. Everybody knows that, just like I Black from Brandon is a known New Democrat know that more spending could happen in all and he writes often. He is a councillor and a these other areas. But are we spending it contributing and good councillor in the City of effectively is a whole other question. But on day Brandon, but he does not share the same point of fo ur, the honourable member for Dauphin, who view as I do on a number of issues. We both often speaks about highways-as do other know that and respect that. He writes often in colleagues of his on that side-he would say there the Brandon Sun, and more recently he has been should be millions, millions, millions more spent quoted more often because he is a member of on highways. our City Council. But Errol Black says very clearly-balanced budgets, it is not right for Nobody has to be accountable, Madam Manitoba. We should not be trying to buy down Speaker, except the honourable members on this our debt, because we are trying to do it too fast side of the House. The trouble with honourable and this takes away-the same thing the members opposite is they do not want honourable member fo r Kildonan (Mr. accountability. Why? Because they cannot Chomiak) said just a couple of years ago-the handle the truth. They cannot handle the truth flexibility that governments need to spend about their own policy about balanced budgets. money. This is going to be a very major deciding issue fo r the people of Manitoba, and they are going to look at the record of 11 years of the Filmon They are not today's New Democrats. They administration, compare it to the rhetoric of are the same old same old, Madam Speaker, and honourable members opposite, and they are this is what is embarrassing to the Leader of the going to be left with the irresistible, inescapable Opposition (Mr. Doer) who wants to be conclusion that you simply cannot believe a New believed. We all want to be believed, but the Democrat. Leader of the Opposition especially wants to be believed because he wants after several attempts The member fo r Concordia, the Leader of and several failures to occupy this side of the the Opposition (Mr. Doer), does not like this House, so he is going to tell the people whatever because he accuses me of refighting old he thinks they want to hear. elections against Howard Pawley, but he forgets who sat right at the same table with Howard Now, what is interesting here is that-and I Pawley in those days when they were increasing am listening with great respect to the honourable income taxes. Remember 1987? I do, very well. member fo r Dauphin (Mr. Struthers), but he is [interjection] Who was the godfather of the going to talk today about how we should be surtax, the 2 percent surtax on our income tax spending more money, and he has done so in fo rm? Well, that was Eugene Kostyra, Dr. Debt education. Okay, fair ball. The thing is that we used to call him. Who were the godparents tomorrow if there is a debate on health, he is of the payroll tax in this province? Who is it that going to tell us about all the money we should be increased the corporate capital tax, the gasoline spending on health. The next day if there is a tax? Who was it, Madam Speaker? Who speaks debate on agriculture, he is going to say we are out of one side of their mouth about how they not spending anywhere near enough money on would like to save and enhance the railroading agriculture and we should be spending more industry in this province, but who is it brought in money on agriculture. Then as many days as a locomotive fuel tax or increased the there are, he is going to have a different topic. locomotive fuel tax? Sorry about that, Darryl, The honourable member for Swan River (Ms. but that needed to be said. Wowchuk) knows this. I can see it in her face and in her eyes. She knows what I am talking An Honourable Member: I was not here then. about. Mr. McCrae: That is right. He was not here * (1710) then. Oh, but those were glorious days, were 734 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 1999 they not, because we had an NDP government. the way around-pies are generally round-that Workers Compensation-[interjection] You round pie, there ain't nothing left. It does not know, they even taxed the life-giving water that add up, does it? Do the math, Madam Speaker, we need to sustain life. I shiver when I think do the math. about what they might have been thinking about taxing next. They do not like it when I talk; in In terms of commitment, I would like to talk fact, it has been said of the honourable members about commitment as opposed to the approach opposite, they never met a tax they did not like used by the member fo r Dauphin. If it works fo r and never met a tax they did not hike when they him, fine, but the point is it is not correct had an opportunity. because it does not-

Madam Speaker, the honourable member fo r An Honourable Member: The only reason Dauphin, I do not know where he is coming they oppose standards is that they do not want from. He does not like us to refer to the people to know how to add up the figures. percentages, because it does not make his argument very well. The honourable member for Mr. McCrae: Right. My honourable colleague, Brandon East (Mr. L. Evans) is a master at these the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews), is things. The honourable member fo r Dauphin absolutely right. The New Democrats simply do should listen to him. He knows how to not want the people to know the truth, and this is manipulate figures and come to the wrong somewhat disturbing to me because I am conclusions and make them sound, you know, interested in laying it all out. Warts and all. maybe okay. There is nobody here who is going to say that perfection is not an elusive thing. I certainly am Madam Speaker, the honourable member fo r ready to suggest that perfection has eluded me Dauphin hates that we use percentages to talk all my life, and I am looking at the honourable about our commitment to education. How else member fo r Burrows (Mr. Martindale) over do you want to demonstrate a commitment? there, and maybe he can help me somehow but I - You see, you can take the pie and the way you doubt it. [interjection] Through a glass darkly, divide up that pie will demonstrate more clearly through a glass darkly. than anything else where your commitments are. But you know what we know about honourable That being said, given the realities of life at members opposite, never mind what they are a time when, Madam Speaker, we have promising about balanced budgets, they just experienced the second worst recession in the want to make the pie bigger. Manitobans do not history of this century, at a time when we have want the pie bigger, they want the pie smaller; experienced the flood of the century, at a time they want their government to be effective and when we have experienced fo rest fires, efficient with their dollars. But while we are conflagration of the like, no one can remember doing that, Manitobans are watching us closely, in this province, at a time when the federal and that is fair, that is the way it should be, partner in health and education has virtually because we believe in accountability. walked away from the table leaving Manitoba taxpayers holding the bag, at a time when we are If you look at 19.3 percent of our spending left as a result of the profligacy of the previous being on education and compare that with the government paying out over half a billion dollars 17.7 percent left to us by the previous every year in debt financing charges, I say government, pretty easy to show where the shame on honourable members opposite. commitment is, given the size of the pie. The size of the pie is a whole other debate, but the I would love to have more than $500 million honourable member does not want to get into more to deal with an education system ,and I can that debate. He just wants to say, well, you are tell you so would all of my colleagues. That not dividing it up right, but he will say that when would make life too easy fo r us in public life, we are talking about education. Then we will go however. No matter how many dollars are available to us, the people of this province to the health debate, but you are not dividing the - pie up right. You see, by the time it comes all expect us to be responsible with their hard- April 28, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 735 earned dollars. I do not get that message every I am not happy to accept his resolution day in this House from honourable members because I simply do not agree with it, and I opposite. I get an entirely different message cannot. The best examination I can make of the from honourable members opposite day in and way he makes his case simply does not add up, day out, and it does not add up. and you do not have to be very smart, Madam Speaker, to notice. Thank you very much. In my humble opinion, I know they never want to take any advice from me, but maybe Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam they should not have been so quick to move to Speaker, I want to comment on the Minister of adherence to balancing budgets and living within Education's (Mr. McCrae) inability to our means as a people. Maybe they should not understand his own government's memos and have done that because they simply are not those pieces of arithmetic he talks about that committed to it, and that shows day in and day come from the Federal-Provincial Relations out. They are not committed to that; they have branch. resorted to gimmickry which the people of Manitoba quite simply are too smart fo r I want to start by talking about a little memo honourable members opposite. that was issued pursuant to a report in the Free Press afterthe budget in the spring of 1993 when So I say I will compare our 19.3 percent a Free Press reporter apparently got some commitment to education with the 17.7 percent numbers wrong. That upset the Minister of commitment to education of the New Democrats Finance something terrible so he had his any day of the week. I would like to point out Federal-Provincial Relations folks recalculate that the over $500 million being spent annually the cost of the 1993-94 budget for an average on debt occasioned by honourable members taxpayer and they put together a memo. I do not opposite, if you add that up over 11 years, you know how it happened, but we just seem to have are looking at something in the neighbourhood a copy of that memo. of $6 billion we could have had at our disposal these last years. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

An Honourable Member: I was not here then. Mr. Sale: No, I have no idea how it happened because it arrived before my time here, you see. Mr. McCrae: I know the honourable member At that point, I was working in the private sector fo r Transcona (Mr. Reid) was not here fo r that as a successful consultant running a small so I do not hold him personally responsible, but business. So I think they probably sent it to us he supports a party that goes in for that sort of in error but, of course, I was not here at that thing, Madam Speaker, and I do not. point having not been elected until April '95.

Education support levy on farmland. Just Now, what does this memo show? The civil thought I would mention that the people in servants, who are always ever helpful to the Manitoba are carrying around $160 million as a Minister of Finance and did not want him to be result of the government backing away from that embarrassed by wrong information in the Free tax. I recognize there is a challenge fo r school Press, very carefully showed what the tax divisions. I recognize there is a challenge for increases in the 1993-94 budget were all about. taxpayers at the municipal level and taxpayers at Those members will perhaps have to cast their the provincial level and taxpayers at the federal memories back a bit. They broadened the sales level. They are all the same taxpayers after all, tax, taxed things like baby bottle nipples, stuff and many of them are the fathers and mothers like that. Things that, you know, one would sort and grandfathers and grandmothers of the of wonder what the point was. children we all love very dearly, so I am quite happy to accept the comments of the honourable An Honourable Member: Extras. member. Mr. Sale: The little extras, yes, like baby * (1720) bottles and stuff, nonessentials. They also, of 736 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 1999 course, cut the property tax credit by $75 of them--<;ut out of our kids' classrooms, out of million-$75 rather, $53 million. The civil our kids' libraries, out of our kids' Internet servants, ever helpful, calculated the total impact connections, out of special needs students. of those tax increases. The Filmon government Twenty-two million real dollars cut by your tax increases in 1993-94, $114 million, not, you government in the last seven years. know, $3 million or $4 million-$ 114 million. They said, helpfully, I think, they said, now, During that same period of time, the special look, we have achieved this by broadening the levy went up by about $160 million. Now our sales tax base; we have achieved it by cutting the research staff, who are, I think, very capable property tax credits; we made some other people, took that $160 million and said: How incidental changes. They said, you know, to much would that be in personal income tax? achieve this change by other means would, fo r Well, the government tells us that one income example, require, and then they calculated two tax point is worth about $23 million. They did figures. One figure was how much you would the math, and they came up with about 7. 7 points have to raise your income tax by to raise this of personal income tax, the equivalent of that amount of taxes. The other was how much you special levy increase. Now remember in '93-94 would have to raise your sales tax by. They they have already increased by the equivalent of said, in two little lines right at the bottom of this 5.7; here is another 7.7. You know, we are kind memo, to raise $114 million on income tax of over the 12 point mark now. This is the would require an increase of 5.7 points of government that did not raise taxes, right? Did personal income tax. So the Filmon government not raise taxes. They are already at the that never raised taxes in 1993-94 alone raised equivalent of 12 points on personal income tax., taxes by the equivalent of 5.7 points of personal and during their entire time of office they claim income tax. They said, oh, the other way you that have cut personal income tax. They have. could do it would be to raise the sales tax by a They have reduced the rate by fo ur points, but little over one point, from 7 to 8.2. they have increased other taxes by the equivalent - of three times their tax reductions-three times. Now, that was just 1993-94, Madam Speaker. In 1993-94 the Filmon government So this government is now taking in a billion raised its taxes by the equivalent of 5.7 points of dollars more in revenue than they were about personal income tax. Now they were not nine or 1 0 years ago. They are taking in $500 satisfied with that little bit of increase. They million more in personal income tax than they offloaded-[interjection] No, no, no, the Minister were at the beginning of their time in office. of Justice (Mr. Toews) just does not get it. They have increased taxes by the equivalent of These are not figures from the NDP. These are more than 12 points of personal income tax and figures from the Federal-Provincial Relations cut it by fo ur. So the net increase is eight points and Research branch of the Department of personal income tax. This is the government Finance. Not our figures, your figures. that wants to have a referendum on tax increases, and it is so dishonest, Madam Speaker, that it An Honourable Member: He was sneaking the achieves its tax increases by burying them in the brown envelopes under the door fo r you. base of the sales tax, by offloading onto municipalities, by offloading onto school Mr. Sale: I do not know who slipped the brown divisions. envelope under the door, Harry. I have no idea. It could have been Vic. Vic was working as a The Minister of Education (Mr. McCrae) is civil servant then. Who knows? Were you over the minister of a government that has cut at Great Waste of Life by then? Who knows? fundingto schools by $22 million since 1992-93, actual real dollars;, FRAME report, read it. So Well, you see, they were not satisfied with the motion of my honourable friend to condemn just that increase of 5.7 points of personal what is happening in education finance-the income tax. They went on to cut funding to minister shakes his head. The minister knows school divisions from $732 million in 1992-93 to that the FRAME report shows that $22 million $709 million this year. Real dollars-22 miilion less is going into classrooms today than it was in April 28, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 737

1992-93. He knows that is the truth, and it is member in the Chamber. I raised the caution very embarrassing, so he tries to hide it by earlier today. All members in this Chamber are concocting percentage figuresto show increases. honourable members, so I would suggest that members exercise due caution in the choice of You know, if he were a little more forthright their words. with the truth, he would tell Manitobans that those increases have come- ***

Point of Order Mr. Sale: Well, Madam Speaker, what I was hoping the minister would be willing to do Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I do not know if would be to bring fo rward the actual reports of you caught it, but the honourable member made his own department that are in fact audited and a reference to my not being forthcoming or part of the public record that show that the only fo rthright with- increases in funding to Education have come because he is paying out a bunch more money An Honourable Member: He said if you were fo r teachers' pensions, he is paying out a bunch a little more forthcoming with the truth- more money for his Assessment branch, and he is paying out perhaps a little bit more money, not Mr. McCrae: Yes, and I have to say I resent very much, in capital. But in terms of any that quite a bit. The fact is that Public Accounts support to schools, the actual place where the demonstrate very clearly, no matter which way rubber hits the road for our kids, he is paying out you want to argue the point, how much has been less money. made available for the different appropriations. I am not hiding anything, nor would I try. The * (1730) honourable member knows that overall expenditures of governmenton a per capita basis If he were forthright with Manitobans, he in Manitoba are down from what it was in the would tell them that and explain why it was NDP days. We know that. I accept that; in fact, appropriate fo r his government to give less I am quite proud of that. But I do not think the money today to schools than it did in 1993. That honourable member meant to offend, and I is the puzzle that most Manitobans have. They would appreciate it if he would withdraw that see their property taxes going up sharply. They statement. see funding to their schools going down, and they wonder why this government tells them the Madam Speaker: The honourable member for reverse. The government tells them they have Crescentwood, on the same point of order. not increased taxes. People are not stupid. They know that taxes have gone up. The government Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, the last thing I tells them there is more money coming to their would want to do would be to offe nd the poor schools. People are not stupid. They can read Minister of Education, but I think that using a the Frame reports. They know that is not true. conditional "if he would be more fo rthcoming So they wonder why their government is not with the truth" is hardly a breach of the rules of more honest and fo rthright with them about the the House. I do not think that it is a point of real facts. The facts are indisputable, as the order. I think he wanted to debate the facts and Frame report makes them. So I would just invite that is what he started to do. But I certainly the minister to share the real facts with people would not want to hurt his fe elings. and to explain what priority it is that has caused his government to reduce its funding to kids at Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point the classroom level. of order raised by the honourable Minister of Education and Training, I will indeed take the What is the priority here? The priority matter under advisement to research the Hansard seems to be to spend more money on transcript and report back to the Chamber. I bureaucracy, to force people to raise money would advise all members to use caution with selling chocolates, and to force up school taxes the word "truth" when addressing another so that you can claim somehow that you are 738 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 1999 more prudent with your finances. Manitobans appreciating where they are coming from. I am - know differently. They know that you have a God-loving Christian individual, and I would increased taxes by the equivalent of 12 points expect that they would demonstrate and show plus of income tax. You have cut them by four the way, but the honourable member fo r points. Your net increase is more than eight Burrows (Mr. Martindale), just less than an hour points of personal income tax. Our taxes are ago, challenged our dean of the House that the much higher today than they were, and it was information that he put on with complete because your government raised them. accuracy, stood up, without any knowledge or anything like that, and said it was completely Madam Speaker, thank you fo r the fa lse. opportunity to speak to this excellent resolution. I challenge people who are in positions like Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): It is that, who are representing the divinity of this my privilege to be able to put a few comments Legislature, people who stand in places and hold on the record with regard to this resolution. themselves out. I am troubled by that. We Looking at the resolution, Madam Speaker, just know that there are many things that are going the WHEREASes, the last two WHEREASes, as on and have gone on, and I have chosen not to far as the honourable member has presented to bring them to the Chamber, but we have heard us, that: nothing other than what they have put on the record fo r the last two weeks in chastising "THEREFORE BE IT RESOL YEO that the people and this government. Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Premier to take responsibility fo r this On this particular resolution, there is no unnecessary financial burden on Manitoba basis fo r what they are offering in terms of families; and suggestions. Education is a key component and a key priority of this government, and the "BE IT FURTHER RESOL YEO that this Minister of Education (Mr. McCrae) has put - Assembly urge the Minister of Education to truthful and honest fa cts on the record here. The consider providing adequate and stable funding people of Manitoba recognize that. to public education." I represent a constituency in an area that has Madam Speaker, I could say that that has closed 15 schools. The number of children in already been achieved. The member certainly our education today has severely dropped in St. knows very well that that has been achieved James-Assiniboia School Division alone. There when we consider the amount of money that has was a time when they were building schools and been put into the Education budget over the last we had a population in the school system of 11 years. something like 22,000, 23,000 children. Today, we have somewhere in the area of around 9,000. It is really interesting when I look at the That is more than a 50-percent drop in comments that are coming across from the other enrollment. side there. We are really in a situation here where we are manipulating and working and Still we, as a government, have put more trying to massage and manipulate the numbers money into the education system, far more than and twisting and turning, and it is really what the NDP did, and what they are advocating interesting how the members across the way in saying that they were the saviours and they even almost appear to have convinced them­ will serve the education system of this province, selves that they are actually making some sense. well, Madam Speaker, I think the people know too well that will not happen. It is also interesting, Madam Speaker, where we have the two reverends, who represent their Despite the fe deral cuts in funding, we have various constituencies over there, talk about maintained one of the finest education systems truth, and I really understand. I have difficulty in the country, and we will compare that to any in coming to grips with this and actually province across the country. The honourable April 28, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 739 member fo r Dauphin (Mr. Struthers) comes to time that we presented a budget to this this Legislature, his background is in the Legislature-are they all of a sudden going to say education system, he should know better. There now that they are going to vote in favour of this is more to this representation in this Legislature budget that is going to be brought to this than criticizing, but I sit and listen day after day Chamber tomorrow? Well, we will just have to after day and that is all I get. That is the only wait and see, because if what they are saying in message. They twist and they do all these things this resolution has any accuracy and credibility to the point that people get confused. The public at all, then they should be voting fo r an increase gets confused. They are saying, well, where are of 2 percent to the education budget. they coming from? That is not what we need. That is not what we talk about in good Manitoba has a strong and adequately representation. funded education system, Madam Speaker. I think over the last 11 years that has been shown. In the last provincial budget, almost 19.3 I think that we can attest to that. Our province percent of funding was devoted to education, boasts one of the lowest pupil-teacher ratios in totalling $779 million. This is an increase of the country-! think it is about 17, I believe, is over $147 million, and the honourable member the actual number per classroom, is the average, fo r Crescentwood (Mr. Sale), he talks about cuts. as well as the fourth highest per pupil Where is the cut? Is this some more of their expenditure in elementary and secondary manoeuvring and twisting and distorting schools. numbers? That is what I interpret from their comments and their remarks. * (1740) Our government has also announced that You know, maybe the honourable members this year's public school funding levels will be should go back into the classroom and start to increased by at least 2 percent in the next really talk to the people who are there and listen budget. I would expect that the honourable to what these people are saying. I spent a good members across the way would get up and part of the time in elementary schools over the applaud that. When we look at the aspect of the last little while. I love to read and things like numbers in terms of enrollment in the province that. The teachers are talking. They are not of Manitoba, they have shrunk considerably. anywhere near what these people are saying over Yet we continue to put more money in. Now, there. You know, I think all they are interested where is this extra money going? They talk in, they are more interested in being in about funding in Question Periods over the last governmentthan they are about bringing truth to few weeks, saying that parents are having to go the Legislature and bringing in responsible out and raise funds to buy textbooks. Well, then, information that could assist and give this we find out a few days later that that is government-and help in the direction of this absolutely false. Where are they coming from, government. Madam Speaker?

As one of the key priorities of this When compared in terms of a percentage of government, support for education has continued the gross domestic product per capita, Manitoba to increase; 1999-2000 is the second year in a ranks third in per pupil expenditures. These row that funding fo r education has increased statistics show that the quality of education in overall by more than 2 percent and represents an Manitoba remains among the highest levels in increase of $34.4 million. These increases can Canada I do not think I can say that enough be directly related to our government's because I think I would have to say it maybe six responsible balancing of the budget. or seven times in order for people to understand that. That is what they say anyway. Maybe if I That is an interesting aspect now in terms of were to repeat that six or seven times as they do their playing with the numbers again, Madam in fidgeting the numbers that they play with to Speaker. They are starting to say that they convince themselves, maybe they could be support balanced budgets, yet they voted every convinced if I was to tell them that, yes, 740 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 28, 1999

Manitoba has one of the best education systems expired. With that information on the record, I - in the country compared to other provinces, want to offe r my congratulations to the Minister Madam Speaker. of Education (Mr. McCrae) and this government in terms of the vision and the foresight and the This government has implemented a number attention that they are giving to education in of key components to improve the quality of Manitoba and to the children of Manitoba. education in this province. The opposition knows it, this government knows it, and the Mr. Ben Sveinson (La Verendrye): Madam people in Manitoba know it as well. I look at the Speaker, let me say at the outset that this honourable members across the way, and they government has provided adequate and stable have smiles on their faces. They know that this funding to education with total education is true, but what comes out of their mouths is support currently at $1.13 billion. Education has different. It is different in their hearts. The only been and remains one of the top priorities of thing is that too often they do not want to admit government and represents 19.3 percent of total it, for whatever reason. I can respect that­ provincial expenditures; in fact, this year [interjection] Yes, the honourable members do represents a third consecutive year of increased have hearts over there. I will be the first one to fu nding to public schools. As a direct result of attest to that, Madam Speaker. this government's respo nsible fiscal approach and sound management practices, we have been Our vision fo r education renewal is very able to increase fu nding to education despite clear. Manitoba students in an environment of massive reductions in transfer payments from inclusion, care, support, safety and rigor will be the fe deral government. My government has among the best educated in Canada. When we been able to do this without compromising our talk about support and safety in our schools, it future under the weight of an onerous debt load. brings to mind the date just a couple of weeks ago in Colorado, and now I hear of another Before this government came to office, - situation in Taber, Alberta, where there were education fu nding represented only 17.2 of the shootings. This is a very serious thing to have to provincial budget. The NDP government deal with. The people in the education system strategy of deficit financing and other misguided certainly need our support as a government, and, public policy approaches of that time are clearly Madam Speaker, we have been doing that by not strategies that would have resulted in a putting more money into this because this is balanced budget and the strong Manitoba what they are saying to us. We look to the economy that we enjoy today. Let us not fo rget education administrators and the people who it is this government's vision and fo rtitude that have an understanding and are the professionals balanced the budget and placed us in a better in that portfolio. They are giving us good position to enhance our investments in areas of advice, and we are taking that advice. We are spending priorities such as health, education and not listening to what the NDP through this services to fam ilies. resolution is saying because they have taken us down that road before, and we are just now We are committed to delivering a high being able to dig ourselves out of this hole. quality of education- So the people in Manitoba recognize that * (1750) this government is on the right track with our education system, and lo and behold, it will be a Madam Speaker: Order, please. When this doomsday in Manitoba if the NDP have any say matter is again before the House, the honourable in what is going to happen over the I next 0, 15 member fo r La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson) will years with the education system, and this have 13 minutes remaining. resolution demonstrates their integrity in this education portfolio. As previously agreed, the hour being 6 p.m., Madam Speaker, with those words, I this House is adjourned and stands adjourned understand that my time has pretty much until 10 a.m. tomorrow (Thursday). LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Wednesday, Apri1 28, 1999

CONTENTS

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Cathy Keenan Santos 703 Oral Questions Palliative Care Expansion M. Driedger 704 Sexual Offenders Mackintosh; Toews 693 Vaclav Havel McGiffo rd 704 Workers Compensation Reid; Radcliffe 694 ORDERS OF THE DA Y Government Advertising Third Readings Ashton; Cummings 696 Bill 17-The Elections Amendment and Organized Crime Elections Finances Amendment Act Mackintosh; Toews 696 Barrett 705 Lamoureux 706 Gaming Control Commission Chomiak 71 1 Lamoureux; Praznik 697 L. Evans 717 Maloway 721 Gaming Policy Enns 725 Lamoureux; Praznik 698 Cerilli 726 Martindale 728 Office of the Fire Commissioner Radcliffe 698 Royal Assent Reid; Radcliffe 699 Reid; McCrae 699 Bill 17-The Elections Amendment and Elections Finances Pine Falls Paper Company Amendment Act 729 Struthers; Cummings 700 Private Members' Business Education System Cerilli; McCrae 701 Proposed Resolutions Res. 5-School Taxes Members' Statements Struthers 729 McCrae 732 Day of Mourning-Workplace Accidents Sale 735 Reid 702 McAlpine 738 Rocan 703 Sveinson 740