PROJECT: Ashtanga Dispatch INTERVIEW WITH: Tim Fedlmann and Kino MacGregor DATE TRANSCRIBED: February 25, 2015 TRANSCRIBED BY: Liz Lawler

PM [intro]: Hey everyone, it’s Peg Mulqueen with your latest episode of the Ashtanga Dispatch podcast. As Ashtanga’s most familiar and easily recognizable couple, Tim Feldmann and Kino MacGregor, couldn’t be any more different. Kino, at barely five feet definitely wears the pink shorts in the family. The youngest woman to receive certification to teach Ashtanga , Kino just broke through another ceiling, by receiving the first posture of Fifth Series just this month in Mysore.

Kino has made it her personal mission to introduce as many students on a global level to the Ashtanga yoga method as she possibly can. Live, in print, or in video, it’s safe to say, Kino yoga reaches millions of students a day, through books, blogs, videos, and of course, Instagram challenges.

Then there’s Tim, who Kino has affectionately dubbed, the “Mayor of Mysore,” because of the way he always stops and talks to everyone. You’re more likely to find Tim chatting up philosophy over coffee than writing it up in a blog. And most of his selfies involve either a motorcycle or Kino, though preferably both.

Truth is, Tim didn’t even realize the interview was being recorded, though it’s doubtful even if he had he would have changed a thing. You see as an accomplished dancer and acclaimed choreographer, Tim knows a thing or two about performance. He just doesn’t. He’s much prefer connecting with people and students personally, and in a very real way, like in the Mysore room. So, while Kino trots the globe, spreading her message, Tim stays closer to home, teaching at Miami Life Center, the studio they founded together in 2006 and he now runs.

But here’s the thing I think you’ll realize as I did from this podcast, they are also very much the same. We chatted via FaceTime one early Saturday morning for them, late Friday evening for me, just after their practice in Mysore India with their teacher, Sharath Jois. They are both passionate about living a spiritual life and sharing this message and themselves, whether it’s on a screen or in the yoga room, with millions, or simply over coffee, or even over a phone call that turns out to be a podcast. Meet one of Ashtanga’s coolest couples, Tim Feldmann and Kino MacGregor.

PM: So, I’m a little star struck. [all laugh] Is that terrible to admit?

TF: No!

KM: No! PM: [laughs] Although Tim, you know, you were the first person, the first to ever call me a “bad lady.”

TF: Is that right?

PM: Yes, yes.

TF: Getting lots of that since?

PM: Um, I’ve had a few, yeah.

TF: But you also know that that is like an affectionate term in our line of, of work, right?

PM: I’m hoping so, endearment? [laughs]

TF: Yes.

PM: So, how is Mysore right now?

TF: Um-

KM: Good.

TF: It’s great to be here, lots of people, we are in the early batch, which is-, which I think we don’t like so much because we wake up at two in the morning. But it’s maybe the best, because it means that you don’t, you know, people at the seven o’clock shift, they wait for an hour, hour and a half before they get in.

PM: Oh, wow.

TF: And for [INAUDIBLE] kinda go straight in, so that’s, it’s kinda like.

KM: There are some benefits about practicing early.

PM: I cannot believe that I have the two of you together and it’s what time?

KM: Uh…

TF: Over here it is uh…

KM: 6:15.

TF: 6:15. No, 6:45.

PM: 6:45, it’s late!

TF: We’re on shala time here, so it’s half an hour, 27 minutes ahead. PM: Watching the two of you and your schedules, and knowing uh that the two of you kinda do something that is pretty amazing and that’s you hold a home base, plus you have a global following.

TF: Yeah, she’s still like, a little jealous about my Instagram amount of followers but…

PM: I know.

TF: Work it baby, work it, you’ll get there.

PM: [laughs] Oh my gosh, you are funny. How did you guys meet?

TF: Do you want the short version or long version?

PM: I want whatever version you’ll tell me.

KM: The long version’s in my book.

TF: This is the long version-, this is the short version. The short version is we met in Trivandrum airport on the way down to practice with Lino in the end of 2002 at Christmas. And we were the luggage band and Kino, she walked over to me and she said, “are you doing that uh, yoga thing?” And I said, yes. And I said, is it your first time here? She said, yes. I said, follow me, baby I know everything… [INAUDIBLE]

PM: [laughs]

TF: Not that, but something like that. I said, I know where to get a taxi.

KM: Yeah, I said, do you wanna share a taxi?

TF: And we shared a taxi and we were in one of these old Indian Ambassadors, which looks like Persian nightclub inside. And uh, that was when the disco bells started ringing.

KM: [laughs]

PM: I like this version. How long ago was that?

TF: Uh, that is uh, 14-, 12 years ago.

PM: Wow.

TF: We’ve been together fucking 12 years, man.

KM: We weren’t together right away.

TF: Then we had a half-, we met there and then we didn’t see each other for half a year. Then we have been together since, but… PM: Wow, and like I said, the two of you seem to be, to me, so different.

KM: Yeah, yeah. I think we’re [INAUDIBLE].

TF: Yes.

KM: Like, Tim likes home remodeling a lot.

TF: And I like to comb my hair.

PM: [laughs] And you’re not at all funny. Oh my gosh. So, how does it work though? I’m gonna tell you, I was talking to uh, David and Stan and they were talking about um, David was actually saying that he can’t imagine having a partner who wasn’t an ashtangi. And that you know, that kinda makes some of the crazy stuff, hours that you keep and those sorts of things, understandable. On the other hand, I wonder how you do it, having the two of you. I mean, it seems like you’re lives are so busy that it must be so hard, you know, to be in different places a lot and trying to juggle studio and you know, Instagram and travel schedules and all of that stuff.

KM: I would say the hardest thing was when we were trying to do everything together. And we were trying to like, come to a consensus on every single decision and that sort of thing.

PM: Yeah.

KM: I think that was the most difficult and since I think that was a big, probably learning process for us, at least it was for me. And I would imagine also for our relationship, just to understand that like, you know, that it’s good for us to have our own sort of areas of economy and areas where we’re not needing to, like come to a consensus to just move a little bit forward and make decisions. So to have those distinct areas, I think is really important, or has been for us.

TF: I think when we opened up Miami Life Center together, when I moved to Miami, the first five years, we ran it together. We founded it originally together with Greg Nardi and then, after three years about, he left and then-. But those five years, we ran it together. And I think what we realized was that we want very different things from this. We’re working this whole yogic paradigm very different. I think it would be fair to say that Kino is more interested in a mainstream approach and I think, correct me if I’m wrong Kino, like, Kino’s genius lies in that she is able and willing to implement mainstream mechanics into this ancient form of spiritual conquest. And I think I am not as interested in that at all. Coming from a background in the arts, I never really enjoyed so much even these promotional periods we had to go through. So, coming to yoga, I was not interested in that. And I think we clashed, we banged head on that for a while. And then after five years, then I left Miami Life Center for two years, and Kino ran it and didn’t have to ask my like, oh, can we you know, can we sell pink shorts in the yoga shop? You know, and stuff like that. And then, Kino, in the meantime, got so really, really busy her Kino Yoga was really, really kicking off. So, then it made most sense for her to focus on that and she was trying to figure out what the heck to do with Miami Life Center and I thought well, maybe this is interesting for me to come back and take a look at that and kinda recreate what I had always wanted it to be. So I teamed up with my friend Matt Tashjian and we have been running it the last year and a half, pretty much without Kino. Um, Kino is just on the poster. So now we’re doing like a very strict, Ashtanga-focused traditional approach down there, I would say. And Kino, instead in conquering the world via one Instagram post at a time.

KM: [laughs]

PM: [laughs] You know what I love though, what I see is that you both come at it from some different angles, but give each other space to have both, because there’s a place for both, right?

TF: I think that was one of our clashing points, originally, Kino she had a vision to reach a million people was one of her goals. And when you set a goal like that you move in some particular strategies. And I did not have a goal of a million people, so my strategies were very different. So that was like-, so when we were running the yoga center together, Miami Life Center together, that was like, we were butting heads on that a lot, actually. But we are not no more.

KM: No. Well, at some moment, I created a separate company, so this is Kino Yoga, incorporated separately from Miami Life Center. So, to create sort of a clear division and a clear intention behind those two. And I definitely believe that Tim’s doing an amazing job at Miami Life Center and creating like, the intimate space where the daily practice of Ashtanga yoga is really supported. But from my perspective, it’s not that I’m not interested in that, I wanna support that and I mean, [INAUDIBLE] amazing and I believe that that’s really the way that people should practice the Ashtanga yoga method. But for myself, personally, what I would-, what sort of inspires me is to be the inspiration for people to practice. Whether they find Ashtanga yoga in Miami, or whether they find another style of yoga or a spiritual path, or they take up meditation, I wanna be the inspiration for people to discover themselves through some sort of spiritual practice. And to really just have the strength to be nice all day. And be a better person and sort of leave the world a more peaceful place.

PM: But I think that Ashtanga can be a little intimidating, yeah? I mean it, I mean-

KM: Yeah.

PM: I was intimidated for a long time. It cracks me up, because I just posted Tim’s article on Elephant Journal like two years ago, you were talking about how it’s a mistaken concept to think that practice brings joy. That it brings something often quite opposite. And then, I compared that with Kino, your approach and you know, it’s all about: you’re smiling, you’re, you know, fun- loving, you make the practice seem like it’s a playground almost. Like, so inviting, like it’s just so fun. And I was thinking about the two together and I’m like, boy, you’re the one who lures them in, Kino. And Tim, you’re the one who [SMACKING SOUND] TF: [INAUDIBLE]

PM: That’s right, then you show them the truth! [laughs]

TF: I think that we actually pretty much share perspective about what this is about, because it’s very defined. Yoga is a very defined modality, like, Patanjali has set forward his thesis very clear about when it’s yoga and when it’s not yoga. And the question is, you know, what part of this journey we latch onto and in the West sometimes, it’s being portrayed as this you know, instant happiness elixir. You know, nectar.

KM: Yeah.

TF: And that is way too new age for me, I come from Scandinavia, you know. And if something is really awesome then, we would say, oh, that’s not too bad, you know, so I think I come in from that side and I will, where people will say yes, you can redo your whole life and be happy with this. I will say, yeah, Ashtanga yoga can create solid meaningfulness and fulfillment in your life. But it’s a different kind of happiness than “yay, Disneyworld!” you know what I mean? I just don’t see that as true. And I don’t think you do either.

KM: Yeah. For me what I come into contact with is the misconception of what yoga is. And this is something that is really important to define, as Tim said, that the yoga methodology is quite clear in terms of the way that it works. Like, it is a path to joy and it is a path to happiness but is not like, the snap of fingers. It’s the path of the removal of obstacles, and it’s the path of, you know, of surrender, really, but surrender only happens if you completely accept the discipline and you completely accept the parameters of that surrender, you know. And it’s a practice that you have to-, it’s an effortful practice. You have to show up on your mat every day. And one of the things that is important for me is that when I share an image and I’m smiling, I never used to smile in yoga pictures, you know, like a long time ago. Sometimes I look at pictures of me on my first trip to Mysore, and I was not smiling, I look back at those and I was like wow, you know, there is a change. And the change is practicing for 15 years. The change is practicing and then experiencing you know, what the Yoga Sutras say in Book 2 after they talk about all the suffering. You know, Book 2 is like, of Patajanli’s Yoga Sutras, is so much about suffering. It’s like, this is how you’ll suffer, this is why you’ll suffer. This is why you’ll never escape suffering. This is where your suffering comes from. This is how it feels like when you suffer. It’s like the Book of Suffering. And then, there’s one Sutra that kind of comes out and then it says, [Sanskrit], I’m missing some line, dayatma is the line that I’m missing. So, anyhow what it says in English that “the yogis minds, after many years of practice, displays these qualities—sukka, the experience of joy and pleasure and happiness, [Sanskrit, sounds like “salman-asya”], which is the opposite of [Sanskrit, sounds like “darman-asya”], which is what you experience in the midst of obstacles. [Salman-asya] is literally the cheerful attitude. It’s a cheerful happy disposition. And I would think of Guruji when I would think about that, salman-asya. Ekagriendria, the ability to keep your mind single-pointed. The ability to control the senses. The ability to experience the atman, the true self inside. So is like, this is Pantajali’s Yoga Sutras, saying, hey, if you commit yourself to the practice, this is what it feels like. So, that’s kind of the message that I want to share with the world that you can be happy and you can be joyful, far beyond any of the joy of the temporal world, far beyond the joy of the pure attraction to the senses and the sense objects. You can be happy from the deepest level, where it really counts. And for me, that’s about experiencing God through the practice. And experiencing divinity through the practice and being able to have a real word experience in that, which then, and again, as Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras say, in the presence of that divinity, the obstacles are removed. The obstacles are lessened, so that you can experience your natural state of happiness, your natural state of joy.

TF: But I think, if I might just break in, I think that the key is that the joy he’s talking about is not the joy that we get from having promiscuous sex, or from having you know, a new type of green juice in a more fanciful bottle. Or a new car, or a new . That is not what he’s talking about. It’s not that kind of joy, it’s a deeper sense of joy, it’s the joy where when “I want” subcedes [sic] and there is no more struggle, there is no more friction between what I want and what I’ve got. It’s that deeper sense of more ambitious type of joy and happiness that Patanjali promises us through this. And I feel that the way that joy and happiness is used in new age and in yogic America is… a false promise, in my opinion.

KM: Or not always, but sometimes, sometimes used.

TF: Yay! I’m doing yoga! You know, it’s like, “yay, now I’m happy.” Like, that article that you were just talking about, that’s about that. It’s like no, no, not that kind of joy. It’s a different kind of joy, but…

KM: I didn’t mean-, I don’t think everybody thinks that.

TF: No, I’m just talking about Patanjali.

KM: Yeah.

TF: I’m just talking about what he sets out to do for us. So, if we go [INAUDIBLE] yoga gives us something else and that, then we can say that, but then we’re in trouble with Patanjali, because he says no.

KM: Right.

TF: Right?

KM: For sure.

TF: So- PM: I do, I feel like in the practice, every time I hit a place where I feel good, happy, whatever, it’s like it ups the ante and takes away whatever, or, or puts the obstacle back in my practice. And, do you think we all-, I feel like I run up with the same few obstacles all the time. Right? For me, it’s always fear and insecurity. Just when I think I’m feeling a little bit of confidence, and easy-going steadiness. Like, boom! There it goes, right there in my face again. And I’m back to being scared and insecure. Do you think that’s built into the practice. Is that everybody? Or is that just, I really need 15 more years?

TF: I think maybe that, I don’t know what you say. But I think that maybe the problem is that we want to feel secure and safe and with strong self-esteem. We want that. And then when we feel insecure and vulnerable and uncertain, then we want to get rid of that. That is the problem. I think. And I think that what we need to do is we need to start to take a look at the fact that’s never gonna go away. That this is part of our life. You know the Buddhists, they have this beautiful tradition where they make the most elaborate mandalas made of small dust and small stones and all kinds of colors. And they make this whole thing and they spend a month on it. And then, when it’s finished, they leave it to the wind. And then it just disappears. So, like, and it’s like, they’re building this incredible piece of art and then, they just let it break down by itself. And I think it’s that same principle that we want this beauty and pleasure to lead our lives our lives. And when we don’t feel that, we think something is wrong. Nothing is wrong [laughs]. We just have, like someone has promised us some shit.

KM: I don’t think it’s actually like, a specific person that’s held that promise out there, it’s more like a cultural ethos.

TF: Agreed.

KM: So, it’s not like okay, well, this person says that or this person says that, it’s like the classic idea of the American dream. Right? So, then there’ this idea of, okay, you have the house and the white picket fence and the job and the pension and the dog and the kids. Right? And so that’s the American dream, and that’s supposed to equal happiness. But what so many people are finding in the United States, I mean, that’s happened already in the past is that there’s this grand disillusionment about, about the ability to attain permanent happiness in the attainment of material pleasure, right? And so, it’s this sort of disillusionment factor, which is why people are trying to do yoga. Because they’re suffering when they have the perfect house and they have the kids and they have the picket fence. And they have the job and they have the dog. And they wake up every day and they feel unhappy. And they’re, they don’t understand. And their bank account’s growing, but their heart’s feeling more and more empty. So, it’s this idea, sort of as Tim was saying, that whatever promise, whatever external goal that you’re working towards, whether it’s material goal, or whether it’s the idea of saying I should feel self-confident and I’ll feel self-confident when I’ve clicked off all of these boxes. Any of these things are outside of the deeper sense of who you are. So, the real purpose of yoga is to, this is what I was saying before about surrender. And I feel like this is, if you’re truly surrendered, then, it’s, and you wake up one morning and you know, you have the same insecurity that you’ve had for your whole life and instead of fighting it, you accept it. Instead of saying, oh, this shouldn’t be there, instead of creating antagonism towards it, creating an aversion towards it, which is one of the obstacles, you simply observe it, and you say okay, so anxiety and insecurity are here today. Okay, I’m gonna get up, I’m gonna go to work, I’m gonna do my practice, I’m gonna do my thing. You wake up the next morning, oh, anxiety and insecurity are still there. And you’re not bothered by it, you just accept it, oh, I’m gonna go to work, I’m gonna do my thing. And the next morning, you wake up, oh, security and happiness are there. Interesting. And then, you just go through your day. So, it’s the equanimous mind that’s the surrendered mind. And this is something that I just think is so important is you know, to cultivate this moderately dispassionate attitude towards whatever is your sensory experience. That you can be free from it. I think-

TF: That is part of the method, right?

KM: Absolutely.

TF: That’s part of the method.

KM: Pema Chodron is one of my biggest inspirations, I mean, I’ve never studied with her, but she’s a big inspiration for me. Someone asked her about her experience of meditation, she said something like, yeah, you know, when I started meditating, I would sit there and I would feel sort of, um, distracted and anxious and unhappy. And now, you know, 30 years, I sit there and I feel distracted and anxious and unhappy, I’m just not bothered about it anymore. Right?

PM: That’s awesome. [laughs] That’s awesome.

TF: ‘Cause in the west, it’s like in the pyramid of needs, we’ve come so high, so when two western people meet each other, one says to the other, hey, how are you doing? How do you feel? And the other person is like, yeah, you know, and they will start talking about that.

KM: Feelings.

TF: If you take that down here to India and you ask like, the local Indian guy, hey, how are? He will look at you like he has no fucking idea what you’re talking about. Down here when two, when, when the local people meet each other, and say, have you had your lunch?

KM: Yeah.

TF: It’s like, it’s a very different step on the pyramid of needs they have.

KM: Right.

TF: Like, I had my lunch. Oh! That’s a good day.

KM: Yeah. TF: Do you know what I mean? Where in, in America and in Europe, it’s like, how are you? Oh, I feel a little bit sad because I couldn’t buy new jeans today, the shop was closed.

KM: My partner didn’t make my coffee this morning.

TF: My favorite coffee shop closed.

KM: Yeah.

TF: I don’t know, you know what I mean?

PM: I do. I do.

TF: [INAUDIBLE] greet in India, the way we greet in the West, I think they say a whole bunch.

KM: Which I think makes the appropriateness of spiritual practice quite relevant for westerners, you know? ‘Cause if you’re in a place where all of your material needs are met and you’re basically, like, you know, you’re good, you know you have the space to question you know, how do I feel? And is this right action? And you’re questioning these things and this is sort of evidence that you have the time and the space to contemplate spiritual practice. If you’re worrying about, you know, whether or not you’re gonna eat lunch that day, then, that, in and of itself is your battle. Like, that’s your test, you know? But if your material concerns are all met, and you’re not happy then the appropriateness of spiritual practice, I believe becomes-, it sort needs to be a big presence.

PM: I got an email from a student and I was wondering how you would respond, 'cause it kinda goes along with what we’ve been just talking about. Um, she was injured and this is not, like I said, it’s pretty common for students. But she said, I have all these emotions that arise every time there’s a little bit of pain in my practice. One in shame, like, I feel ashamed. I should be, you know, I’ve been doing this for a while. I should not be hurting myself. The second part she goes into is fear. And says, then I get scared, am I damaging my body? Am I doing something wrong and I’m gonna hurt myself? And then, three, I just wanna quit. And I really wanted to quit today. And she wrote that these were the dragons that I met on my mat today. I understand, I mean, her email. How would you respond to that?

TF: When I go to India, I study down here, I dig a little deeper in the philosophy, so, I tend to get obsessed with that when I’m here in India. And I am at the moment. And if I might take this from a kind of yogic perspective, the problem is the mis-identification. She said, I’m afraid when my body is in pain, I’m ashamed when I feel injured and then I just want to quit. The thing is she her whole identification of self, lying around how she feels, what she thinks, and how her body is responding to her life. And she has not come to the place yet where she is feeling that I am the observer of all this. And that’s where my stability lies. And if she could reside there a little bit more, she would just say, she would… it would be lighter, all these problems. And she would see that all these problems are her possibility to gain knowledge, to gain experience, which it’s all about. Whether they feel good, or they don’t feel so good. And right now, she resists anything which doesn’t feel good. So, she is caught in the raga-dvesha desire there. And she’s caught there. And if she has, like a decent yoga teacher, a good yoga teacher like yourself, then we can maybe hope that she can start to understand that there’s another way of thinking about this. That if we tell her, you know what, observe your mind and take a look at what’s going on inside, because your body gives you this tool to see who you really are and how you think. Then maybe she can start to get the trust and faith that we’re not just doing lip service. But we actually mean that shit when we say that. When we go through that, you know? That’s what it’s about. And that is happiness, right there is the potential in that situation, without even changing [INAUDIBLE] there’s potential for happiness. If she can do what Pema Chodron does, she goes in and she feels pain and shame and all that and she just resides in it, and she observes. She goes, look at that stuff that’s happening in my movie here.

KM: I mean, I think that the basic thing is that um, like everything that you’re saying, you have direct experience of what it takes to like, show up on the mat for a long period of time. So, it’s not like you’re speaking abstractly, like I know you said you’re basing it in philosophy, but you’ve gone through something like that.

TF: Oh yeah.

KM: And I think something, I think something that’s really important for people like when they experience, like, she called them dragons, right? And so immediately, you can probably see she’s got the perspective of fighting. So, she’s like, right, what do you do with dragons, you conquer them. You know? So, it’s like, no, what do you do with dragons when you meet them on your yoga mat? You befriend them. You say like, okay, well, so you’re here today, these dragons were visiting and they breathed fire on me and they tried to kill me, but if your faith is strong, they won’t kill you, you know, the fire will only purify you. It’ll only remove obstacles. So, let them be there. Okay, so they’re there. And then, you just don’t fight them, you drop the need to fight and you drop the war, right? Because it’s our small-. And that’s like, I feel like the biggest life lesson that can come from the path of yoga. Because how many times do we go out into the world, like someone says something mean to us, right? And we’re like, ooh, you’re a dragon, you shouldn’t have said that, let me show you what’s right. You make this little war with them. Or I’m gonna get you back, and you try to extract vengeance from them and this sort of thing. You made your little wars, people launch emotional missiles towards each other, one’s launching towards you and then you fire one back and then you create these little wars. And I just feel like, if you’re yogis, we owe it to our commitment to this spiritual path to make our commitment to be peaceful and to, you know, to drop the war, to stop trying to annihilate the source of our suffering, because the source of our suffering is within ourselves. Not outside, you know. And then the, there’s a meditation teaching that kinda says like, hey, there is an infinite amount of squeaking things and sounds in every room that you could do without.

TF: In every body. KM: Seriously, in every body, in every room.

PM: Right.

KM: And if you spend your life, trying to annihilate and eradicate every squeaking, annoying sound, you will never win. It will be a lifelong battle and you will fail. So, just let them be there. You know, some things are gonna move easily and let them be there. It’s like trying to make quiet in India, it’s impossible.

PM: This is actually great, it’s actually great for me to hear. This has been-, you know, I have recently just gotten a little bit more tired, I’m getting a little older. Okay? So, and I’m getting a little tired. And I just noticed it in the past six months, like just an easing off for me. And there is a little bit of panic in me, like, oh my gosh, like, this is it. This is that moment everybody talks about where you go backwards. It’s been hard, I don’t have any experience with not moving forward, going forward, being stronger, I don’t know how to take that step back.

TF: Well, I can tell you, I’m 48 now and when I was 25, I was a young dancer and I had not really had any injuries, and then I fell off a mountain and I broke my body. And I was told I would walk, run, and dance and stuff like that again. And then, after two years of rehabilitation I was back performing again. And um, we [INAUDIBLE] stuff going on in the body and then during that time, I found yoga and then I started to do yoga and I started to get passionate about yoga and then I messed my back up. Um, and then, I came to, I’ve been practicing here in Mysore maybe five years with a back injury, where I was back and forth, and back and forth. And now, knock on wood, here the last year or two, my body has been really awesome. You know, I don’t have any knee stuff going on, don’t have any back stuff in the moment. So suddenly, I’m like well, what happened to this young man’s body suddenly that came inside? And let’s see how long time that’s going on, right? I’m, I’m moving on 50, so it’s like, borrowed time. What is it, I love what’s his name, Leonard Cohen, he says and now something, “you’re little winning streak,” you know, and you’re back on boogie street and there’s a moment for the invincible defeat. You know, there’s just no way you’re gonna go there, it’s just a matter of freaking time until you can’t drop back anymore. Until you can’t jump through anymore. Until you can’t tie that leg there anymore. But I think that a practice matures when we start not to go forward. When we keep forward, it’s just great fun. And it’s just like yay and when we start to not be able to go forward but we have to go back, we have to pick up the pieces, that’s when the practice matures. That’s when a practitioner gets seasoned, and you know, the pizza starts to taste of something. So, I think you couldn’t be any better. It’s just not so much fun.

PM: Right [laughs].

TF: But the fact is that information we extract from joyful moments are so much less most of the time than the information that we extract from difficult moments. Because when we are in good moments, we just go, “yay!” and when we are in difficult moments, you go, “why is this going on with me? Why could I do? Why can’t I do?” And we read books and we go to doctors and we speak to our friends and we go back to our parents and we say I’m sorry for the way I treated you 25 years ago. You know, we do all these kind of things. So that’s in bad, in crunchy moments, then there’s some information there to extract. So hey, I would be happy about it [laughs]. You know?

PM: Yay!

TF: I was talking about, you know, that this passion is a way to happiness, like I’m reading [sounds like Sankia] at the moment and they make it very clear that this passion is one of the most important things in the path towards emancipation, but there is no emancipation in this passion in non-attachment. Emancipation comes through knowledge. Faster, you know! So like, when, like we need to move towards gaining knowledge, gaining knowledge, and being in a difficult time is a natural knowledge catcher.

KM: Yeah.

PM: I wish that weren’t so, I won’t lie. But I know that that’s also part of what I hear you guys both saying collectively and that is just observe it. It is what it is today and…

KM: Yeah, cultivate the equanimous mind. For yourself personally, if you don’t have a mediation practice, meditation is probably the single most effective way that I’ve experienced to cultivate the equanimous mind. And that’s something that I feel can put the perspective on so much deeper. Because, like Tim was saying, if it’s knowledge that creates emancipation and knowledge that creates freedom, knowledge of what? What creates space for knowledge, if you’re too identified with your own personal suffering, then there’s no space for the higher knowledge to seep in. How can you experience God directly when you’re so caught up in whether your big toe hurts or not? Do you know what I mean? So, if that’s the sort of level that your thoughts are attracted towards then you won’t be open to the higher knowledge. Or if you’re too attached to the feelings, your personality, your possessions, this sort of thing then when the surrender moment comes for you to jump in and have this sort of leap of faith experience where you directly experience the highest truth, the highest knowledge, then you won’t be able to take that jump. I think that the whole asana practice really is just about preparing you for that surrender moment. For that moment of direct perception of that knowledge, so that everything that we experience along the path is really just preparation for that.

PM: Yeah, that surrender thing is kinda hard. I think that’s when Tim may have called me a bad lady. I’m pretty sure that was it [laughs].

TF: I hope so!

PM: It was. KM: I think India itself is one of the greatest teachers. Like, they say about India, if you don’t have patience, India will give you patience. And if you have patience, India will break it. So, you know, for example the other day, our landlord came over and he did a wonderful thing, he gave us a battery pack, which is a backup for when the power goes. But he managed to turn off our pump which supplies water. So, we ran out of water at 2:00 am when we were trying to take showers and practice-

TF: Make tea.

KM: -and whatnot. So, you know what I mean? As a westerner, when your water just-, it just doesn’t go off, we don’t have power cuts, we don’t have water cuts. We don’t have that. And you cannot control that. Like, if it’s a city, I was in Mysore once where there was a city water cut for two weeks. You cannot control that. There’s no one you can call, there’s nothing you can do, there’s no 1-800 number, there’s no complaint form. You just take it. Which is like, you don’t do that in the United States.

TF: She’s brought up in the suburbs, right? Like, everything is there, there’s a car-

KM: There’s no water cut for two weeks.

TF: There’s no such thing as [INAUDIBLE] you know, there’s a 7-11 on every corner and a Starbucks.

KM: Yeah, pretty average American princess. I think that going to India and like, suffering through things is a really important thing because there’s something-. Like so many people take it for granted, you know, like, oh, it’s, you know, they come here and they complain. And I’m like, no, it’s not about that. You come and you surrender. So, you teach yourself, like, you’re forced to surrender into things. We’re not like, voluntary surrendering people, you know what I mean? If we can have the juice that we want and the food that we want, and the house that we want, if we can control it all, we will. So, I think it’s so important, so many people ask, “why should I go to Mysore? Guruji’s not alive anymore.” You feel like, you should just go to India itself because Sharath is amazing, I recommend everyone to come practice at the Shala here for sure, it’s an amazing experience, you can’t get anywhere else in the world, but half of the trip is about coming to India. And just, you know, oh, the power cut, can’t do anything about it. Oh, water cut. Oh, this didn’t happen. Oh, there’s a cow in the middle of the road, we have to go around it. So, there’s all these things that really just like create this experience of non-attachment because you can’t change it. And there’s no, again, there’s no one you can call, there’s no 1-800 number, there’s no complaint form, there’s no customer service agent, there’s no one that’s gonna save you. There’s nothing you can do.

I remember one time, we came back from India and two things: first of all, when I came into the United States, I was trying to check myself in at one of these kiosks, and it didn’t, like the kiosk was broken and then the customs officer was like-, I said the kiosk is broken and he took my passport and he said, you have to-, there’s a 1-800 number you have to call. Oh, welcome to the United States, when there’s a problem, 1-800 fix me! You know? And I felt like, oh, I’m home, and then I went out and I turned this experience of just turning the water and everything works, it’s like, I had never appreciated that before. And I feel like that’s a huge lesson. There’s so many, like, we take every-, me, myself, I’m a big like, take it for granted person. I take it for granted. But it’s like, it’s all these small things you appreciate it. Everything is a gift from God, every moment. Like the fact that there’s hot water, the fact that there’s internet. The fact that we can see each other. This is like the Jetsons, like, you know, 20 years ago. It was like a future prediction. The fact that, you know, we have each other, we have love, we share all of these little moments of appreciation, I feel like it’s so easy to take it all for granted, especially if you’re raised in a life of privilege where everything’s taken care and there is a social safety net and if it’s not the social safety net, then you go back to live with your parents. Or there’s always something to catch you. And it’s just, you take it for granted, but the experience of going to India, practicing here, and then returning into this life that you took for granted, it just casts it in a whole new perspective so that you can appreciate every little gift that you received. And you understand how special it is. And you never take it for granted again.

PM: You know, you really are good, Kino. I just have to say that you just made having no running water and [laughs] no control, sound incredibly awesome. I think it’s really gracious that the both of you have taken this time out of your morning. You know, between conference and practice to talk to me. But also that you share so much of yourself. Both of you in your own way, share so much of yourself with so many people. To be that vulnerable and to be that open is hard.

TF: I don’t know if we could do it any different. Maybe I should speak for myself. I think part of this whole paradigm of yoga is that you walk the walk. You know? And there’s a transparency and an honesty that if that is not in place, then it doesn’t make any sense. And it doesn’t have any power. It’s like writing out a check to a bank account that doesn’t exist. You know, that just make any sense. If you have money in the bank, you can write the check and everyone will honor the check. If you do not have money in your bank account, they will just laugh at you. You’re sitting there with a smirky smile.

KM: [INAUDIBLE] on a more like practical level, I think that Tim is an extremely friendly person. Like I think that he’s, he’s really talkative and friendly, as long as nothing’s wrong. The only way you can tell if Tim is upset is, or if, yeah, if you’re upset about something then, he doesn’t have anything to say. But as long as Tim is feeling good, he has a lot to say, he’s actually quite talkative. And [INAUDIBLE] and I’m joking with him, because I’m calling him the Mayor of Mysore, because he talks to everyone, he kisses them hello. And then, they look at me and I’m like, oh! Hi! And it’s funny because, it’s an aspect of Tim that I really love about him and I feel like I’m almost more comfortable, I don’t know, like sharing myself in a public forum.

TF: A formal way? KM: In a formal or public way. So and then, I’m an intensely private person so that, like, on the street sometimes I don’t wanna say hi, like I’m not necessarily like, oh, hi, let’s talk for 20 minutes now. I’m more like, hey, and you know, I don’t like, it would take me a while to like let a friendship in or something like that. Like, it takes me a little bit longer to really open up to people like that. But in a teaching perspective or in a way where I believe that the sharing of myself is useful or has a purpose or something like that, then that’s quite easy for me and I find that the more that, like the more open I am, the more vulnerable I am, the more I can connect with people. But it’s an interesting sort of difference between us, 'cause I’ve definitely learned from Tim that there is, you know, how to be available for people just when you meet them and that sort of thing, 'cause that definitely is-. I mean, I do know for myself though that I need to balance that, whether it’s sharing publicly or meeting people on the street and talking to them or talking to students after practice, I need to balance that with quiet and solitude. And if I don’t have that then I get really, I don’t know, I just get imbalanced. And I get outside of myself. So, for me that’s an important balance to really keep. And I think that’s something that people don’t immediately know about me, they just assume because I smile and I make videos that I wanna talk all day. But that’s-, I’m not like that. I love silence, you know, I love quiet. In between the two of us, Tim’s the one that will put on music and I’m like, music? Mmm. Okay.

TF: That happens once a month.

KM: [laughs]

TF: Oh, do you remember that thing called music?

KM: Yeah, and I’m like oh, can we put on like, peaceful classical music and Tim’s like-

TF: Because I put on Johnny Cash, she’s like oh…

KM: How about-

TF: Is that music?

KM: Yeah, exactly, like oh. And Beethoven? Mozart? [laughs]

TF: Can I just say, I also think that you know, that there is a lot to aspire to in this, you know, there’s a never ending depth, there’s a never ending next level to this thing and I feel that personally I have met some really, really inspiring people. Some people that really motivate me to try to be the best I can. And the whole paradigm of what we’re doing is to show up in the part of ourselves that is about light and attempting to do good. It’s not about the part of ourselves where we go, aw fuck it. Like it’s not that part and that happens sometimes, right? And I feel I met some people that are very inspiring in that way. And I feel that the texts that we read that has been-, um that our work is based on shows us very clearly, like, for instance that who do we seek advice from? From people who doesn’t have a personal interest in the outcome. People that has only, is only answering from the point of view that what they think can possibly benefit you. And I feel I meet people like that and I read that kind of literature. And I have these kind of students in class that are there to try to do better for themselves or in general. And when we are around that attitude for a long time, it makes a mark and it is inspiring to live that.

PM: It inspires me to watch the two of your how you give each other space to be who you are, to share the gifts that you have in the different ways that you do. As a student, you know, in DC, who has known both of you in separate arenas, I have appreciated what both of you have offered. Even the “bad lady” [laughs]. But all of it, and you know, Kino have learned so much from you online. There were times when I had no idea how to do something and you know, as I would turn to you and a couple of times I wrote to you and said, I have no idea and you were like: here this is-, go to this and look at this, boom, done. And I was like woah! That’s awesome. And yet, and Tim, I’ve had more one on one experiences with you in the yoga room. And it’s true, I mean, I’m laughing about the bad lady comment but you were the first person who ever brought me to my heels or ankles and I-

TF: You’re not the first one that brought me to my knees.

KM: That’s what I thought you were gonna.

TF: [laughs]

PM: Although, I did feel figuratively I dropped to them but there was a level of almost immediate trust with you and yet, of course, fear in me which I said already always comes out, but you took the time afterwards to talk to me about it and to process it with me. And I had never had that kind of reaction before in the yoga room of that uh, I couldn’t explain it, it wasn’t physical. I backed away because I was scared and I hadn’t had that kind of fear. But you took time afterwards and talked to me about it and processed with me and it was really meaningful. So both of you have had such an impact on my life in two different ways and I really appreciated it. And have like, appreciated both of you sharing yourself in the ways that you do. As different as they are.

KM: I know Tim that your gift, one of your amazing gifts is teaching and physical adjustments. I feel that you create this amazing space of trust like, an immediate sense of trust. And physically, you’re able to kind of work with the body beyond the physical body. I don’t think um, it’s almost like this unteachable aspect, you know, it’s like Guruji said, you know, no teacher training. It’s like how do you teach someone that intuitive gift that you have, that when you put your hands on their body that you feel beyond the physical body. You know, you’re feeling the emotional body, you’re feeling the energetic body, you’re feeling all this stuff, it’s almost like you’re born with it or you don’t have it. Or maybe you can learn it by practicing with a teacher like that for many years. That’s something that, you know, that you’re truly gifted at. You know, physically, anatomically super-precise but there is that space that Peggy mentioned that there’s trust. And trust is something that you feel in the body, it’s not like, you can’t intellectually trust someone. It’s like your body has to trust their body. Right? TF: Well, thank you Kino, that’s super sweet of you. I truly believe in the power of asana. I think it’s amazing. And as you say too, as a vehicle, as a window, as a portal into something much deeper than that.

KM: Right.

PM: Well, I won’t keep either of you much longer. Thank you so much. Is there anything either at Miami Life Center or with you, Kino, anything-.

KM: I mean, every month I’m hosting Instagram challenges, which are kinda fun and I think that the ashtangis kinda like them, 'cause it’s like permission outside of the series, right? And I’ve noticed that there are actually a lot of asthangis that take funny photos and it’s like some sort of fun permission to go to that place where it’s fun and it’s not this disciplined practice. So in March, I’m doing a challenge. So, that’ll be kind of you know, very outside of the main of the Ashtanga police.

PM: I’m gonna do it, I’m gonna do it! I’m gonna do March. I have not done one.

KM: It’ll be fun, it’s like we’re building up, but to teach the correct technique and everything like that. And you know, I host them with my friend Carrie and we’re gonna-, we’re also having a series of Cody that’s going to go along with it, that’ll like give instruction a little bit more detailed than what we’ve done before, so it’s kind of a special and new one. I’m editing my second series book, which is gonna come out some time this year. So, I’ve typeset copy and I’m proofreading it while I’m here in Mysore, so that’s kind of exciting.

We are leading together a one-month summer course in Miami in July and then we’re also leading a two week intensive in London, which is the first time we’ve ever done like a two week sort of course outside of Miami. And then next year a little less than a year from now, we’re gonna do the same two week things in Singapore.

PM: I hope you have a great rest of your time there in Mysore, enjoy your time together. Thank you for taking the morning out.

TF: Thanks for having us on your show.

PM: Thank you both so much!

TF: Bye!

KM: Bye.

PM: Wow, it’s clear that while most people around the world may know Kino via Instagram, that is just scratching the surface, there is an ocean of knowledge underneath. And as for Tim, take it from this bad lady, he’s one teacher you will want to visit and study with. Not to mention, follow his quirkier Facebook. He’s hilarious. Truth. The two of them together have a lot of yogic wisdom to share. But after listening to them and watching them interact with each other, they also have a thing or two to share about what makes relationships work. It really touched my heart in the way they each support the other in pursuing their dreams and passions, even when those paths involved selfies and motorcycles. I hope you’ll get the chance to visit Miami Life Center at some point. Not only does Tim and Kino offer various opportunities for study with them, they also have a whole team of gifted and passionate teachers. Visit miamilifecenter.com to learn more. And of course, I hope you’ll join Kino, and yes me too, for March’s Instagram challenge, #journeytohandstand. Check out kinoyoga.com to learn more about this and more about Kino. Thank you for tuning in today and remember, our fun is just only beginning. So make sure you subscribe to this podcast on iTunes. And certainly, if you or someone you know would like to help sponsor future episodes, please let us know on asthangadispatch.com. This podcast is the brainchild of our editor and producer, Chris Lucas. And hosted by me, Peg Mulqueen. Thanks again, see you next time.

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