SUBSEQUENT PAROLE CONSIDERATION HEARING
STATE OF CALIFORNIA
BOARD OF PAROLE HEARINGS
In the matter of the Life ) CDC Number: C-88440 Term Parole Consideration ) Hearing of: ) ) HARRY SASSOUNIAN ) )
SAN QUENTIN STATE PRISON
SAN QUENTIN, CALIFORNIA
DECEMBER 14, 2016
9:30 A.M.
PANEL PRESENT:
MARISELA MONTES, Presiding Commissioner PATRICK REARDON, Deputy Commissioner
OTHERS PRESENT:
HARRY SASSOUNIAN, Inmate MARK GERAGOS, Attorney for Inmate ANNE INGALLS, Deputy District Attorney HEATHER MCCRAY, Assistant Chief Counsel, BPH GUNAY EVINCH, General Counsel, Turkish Foreign, Observer BARBARA WOLFF, Deputy District Attorney, Observer CORRECTIONAL OFFICER(S), Unidentified
CORRECTIONS TO THE DECISION HAVE BEEN MADE
No See Review of Hearing Yes Transcript Memorandum
ROBYN K. BOWEN, Transcriber, NCCR 2
I N D E X
Page
Proceedings...... 3
Case Factors...... 103
Pre-Commitment Factors...... 12
Post-Commitment Factors...... 176
Parole Plans...... 216
Closing Statements...... 266
Recess...... 298
Decision...... 299
Adjournment...... 319
Transcript Certification...... 321
Northern California Court Reporters 3
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: We're on the
3 record, Commissioner.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Good morning,
5 everyone. It's approximately 9:30 a.m. on December the
6 14th, 2016. We are here for the -- it looks like the
7 Fourth Subsequent Parole Suitability Hearing for
8 Mr. Harry Sassounian. Am I pronouncing that correctly,
9 sir?
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes, you did Commissioner.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. And --
12 pardon me. He is present with us here at San Quentin
13 State Prison. This hearing is being held pursuant to
14 what we call a sua sponte review, an Administrative
15 Review by the Board that is authorized by Penal Code
16 3041.5(b)(4), to give the Board an opportunity to see
17 the progress that the inmate has -- sorry for the --
18 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: It's getting -- I didn't know
19 whether to move to this side or just kind of move --
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Sorry. Our
21 computers are -- I mean our files are all electronic
22 now. So --
23 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: I'll move over to this side.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
25 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: How's that?
Northern California Court Reporters 4
1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Very good. Very
2 good.
3 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: How you doing,
4 Gunay?
5 MR. EVINCH: I have -- I got half of you here.
6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Absolutely.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: All right. So
8 the sua sponte review is to give the Board an
9 opportunity to review the progress that the inmate has
10 made in achieving parole suitability since his last
11 hearing. And your last hearing occurred on February the
12 5th, 2015, wherein you received a three-year denial.
13 And so this hearing has been advanced by approximately
14 14 months. Mr. Sassounian was received on June the
15 29th, 1984 from Los Angeles County for a violation of
16 Penal Code 187, Murder in the First-Degree in Case
17 Number A-375674, that resulted in a sentence of 25 years
18 to life. The minimum eligible parole date has been
19 calculated as October 25th, 2002, and the victim of your
20 commitment offense was then Turkish Consul General in
21 Los Angeles, Kemal Arikan. This hearing is being audio
22 recorded, so Mr. Sassounian, we're asking all the
23 participants to state their full name, spell the last
24 name, and when we get around to you, add your CDCR
25 number as well. Okay?
Northern California Court Reporters 5
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Thank you.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: I'll start and
3 we're going to go to my left. Okay?
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Okay.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: My name is
6 Marisela Montes, M-O-N-T-E-S, Commissioner.
7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Patrick Reardon,
8 R-E-A-R-D-O-N, Deputy Commissioner.
9 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY INGALLS: Anne Ingalls,
10 I-N-G-A-L-L-S, DA from Los Angeles.
11 MR. EVINCH: Gunay Evinch, E-V-I-N-C-H, General
12 Consul to Turkish Foreign Mission in the United States.
13 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Observing only?
14 MR. EVINCH: Observing only.
15 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Thank you.
16 MS. WOLFF: Barbara Wolff, W-O-L-F-F, Los Angeles
17 County DA, Observer.
18 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: Mark Geragos, G-E-R-A-G-O-S,
19 appearing as counsel for Mr. Sassounian.
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Harry Sassounian,
21 S-A-S-S-O-U-N-I-A-N. C Number is C-88440.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: All right. Thank
23 you.
24 MS. MCCRAY: Heather McCray, M-C-C-R-A-Y,
25 Assistant Chief Counsel for the Board of Parole
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1 Hearings.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. All right.
3 Very well. Thank you. Oh, we also have two
4 correctional officers that are present for security
5 purposes today. Mr. Sassounian, we have reviewed our
6 DECS Database, also the Notice and Request for
7 Assistance that you signed on July the 8th, 2016. And
8 of significance there is that your reading level on the
9 last TABE exam was a 7.4. The total GPL was 6.4. There
10 are no cognitive issues that we're aware of. Your TABE
11 score is well above the 4.0 threshold that we get
12 concerned about if it's below that. You've indicated
13 you did not need any help to address any physical
14 disabilities; is that correct?
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: That's true.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. So you
17 have no problems with your vision?
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: None?
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Well, I do use reading
21 glasses when I read.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Reading glasses?
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: So are those
25 sunglasses there --
Northern California Court Reporters 7
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No, they're reading glasses.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: They're reading
3 glasses?
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes. Yes.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. They're --
6 they transition lenses?
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes. Yes.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. All right.
9 They look like sunglasses.
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. Perfect.
12 Do you have any trouble with your hearing?
13 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: A little bit. I was having a
14 little problem hearing you right now, just a little bit.
15 I'm hearing, but not clear.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: So I will --
17 these are not -- by the way, these are not microphones.
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I know. I know.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: They are
20 recorders for the hearing equipment -- transcription
21 equipment, so I will try to speak up and ask that
22 everyone else do the same to make sure we have clear --
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Thank you.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- communication.
25 But you don't wear hearing aids --
Northern California Court Reporters 8
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- or anything
3 like that; correct? Do you have any trouble walking?
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: No mobility
6 concerns?
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. And are
9 you participant in the Mental Health Services at CDCR?
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: No? Are you
12 taking any medication that might impair your ability to
13 participate in a lengthy hearing -- potentially lengthy
14 hearing?
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. All right.
17 Mr. Geragos, I don't see the need for any specific
18 accommodation other than the glasses which he has
19 available to him.
20 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: Neither do I.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. Great.
22 Thank you. The Panel has reviewed both a 65-day and a
23 ten-day Hearing Checklist. Counsel, can you confirm
24 that you received those items on the -- on the
25 checklist?
Northern California Court Reporters 9
1 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: I can confirm that we received
2 everything that was on the checklist through the portal.
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Excellent. And
4 Ms. Ingalls, you as well?
5 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY INGALLS: Yes. Thank
6 you.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Very good. Thank
8 you. Mr. Geragos, are there any additional documents to
9 introduce as exhibits today?
10 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: I think --
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Anything new?
12 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: -- that everything we posted
13 through the portal looks to me to have been received or
14 at least acknowledged by the CDC.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. Excellent
16 then. Are there any preliminary objections?
17 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: No. No preliminary objections
18 at this time.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. Now,
20 Mr. Sassounian, we reviewed a lot of documents in
21 preparation for this -- for this hearing. You have a
22 pretty large file. One of the things that we review is
23 the confidential portion of the C-File and if we rely on
24 any of its contents as the basis of our decision, we're
25 required to notice you of that.
Northern California Court Reporters 10
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Thank you.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: And if that
3 becomes necessary, we will do so at the time of our
4 decision. Okay?
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Thank you.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: All right. So
7 Counsel, did you have an opportunity to discuss with
8 your client the nature and flow of today's proceeding?
9 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: I did --
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
11 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: -- very extensively.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. You had
13 plenty of time?
14 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: Yes.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: All right.
16 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: I had plenty of time.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: All right. So
18 Mr. Sassounian, do you have any questions about what's
19 going to happen here today; do you know?
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No, Commissioner. I just --
21 I just ask that I have a fair hearing, and I believe I'm
22 going to get it.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: That's about it.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. Well, we
Northern California Court Reporters 11
1 can promise you that.
2 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Thank you very much.
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: That's what we're
4 here to do.
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Thank you.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. We do want
7 to remind you though, that we are not here to re-try the
8 case or to reconsider the findings of the Trial or the
9 Appellate Courts or any of their decisions. We do
10 accept as true all their findings. What we're here to
11 do is to determine whether or not you are suitable for
12 parole. So we are going to consider all the factors
13 that have been identified for us in the California Code
14 of Regulations; those are available to you as well. And
15 we're going to consider your responses here today, so
16 obviously, it's important that you're open, honest,
17 forthcoming with the Panel. And with that I'd like to
18 begin by swearing you in. Could you please raise your
19 right hand? Okay. Other right. Okay. There you go.
20 All right. Do you solemnly swear or affirm, that the
21 testimony you give at this hearing, will be the truth,
22 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I do.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: All right. Thank
25 you, sir. Okay. Counsel, the Notice of Hearing Rights
Northern California Court Reporters 12
1 was also presented to the inmate. Have we adequately
2 covered his procedural rights thus far?
3 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: Yes. As far as I'm aware, you
4 have.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. Thank you.
6 We're going to move on then to the pre-conviction
7 factors and I know that you had a hearing fairly
8 recently, but every hearing is considered de novo, a
9 brand new hearing. So we'll go over some of those
10 pre-conviction factors, meaning some of the things that
11 occurred in your life prior to the crime. We'll move on
12 to the crime itself, and then move on to
13 post-conviction, which includes all of your self-help
14 participation and programs, any disciplinaries, and so
15 on. So that's kind of the core. So we'll start with
16 pre-conviction factors. I do have your date of birth --
17 date of birth identified as January 1st, 1963; is that
18 correct?
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: That's true.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: It's accurate?
21 And sometimes our -- sometimes our files are not
22 complete and, especially with people who immigrate from
23 other countries, sometimes we have the wrong date. I
24 want to give you the opportunity to clarify. So how old
25 are you today?
Northern California Court Reporters 13
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I'm 53.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm. And how
3 old were you at the time that you committed the life
4 crime?
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Nineteen.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Nineteen? Okay.
7 So then you should qualify as a Youthful Offender. Are
8 you aware of the Youthful Offender Law?
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes. I've been hearing about
10 it. Yes.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. So then I
12 just want to note on the record, I should have stated
13 that previously, that because you were -- you had not
14 yet attained your 23rd birthday at the time that you
15 committed your crime, you are -- we are -- I should say
16 we are required to give great weight to the fact that
17 you were a Youthful Offender at the time that you
18 committed your crime. So the Board will do so in
19 arriving at our decision today.
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Thank you, Commissioner.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: All right. So
22 yes, your crime occurred January 28th, 1982; is that
23 correct?
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: All right. Okay.
Northern California Court Reporters 14
1 A little bit of your background based on what we
2 gathered from the record. I noted that you were born in
3 Beirut, Lebanon; is that correct?
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: And you were the
6 fifth born of six children?
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Born to your
9 biological parents.
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: True.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: You were raised
12 by both parents; correct?
13 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. You grew
15 up in a home that was -- that included grandparents,
16 your family, mother, father, siblings, and an uncle's
17 family as well all residing under the same roof?
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: True.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Is that correct?
20 At one point in the documents, I read that there were 14
21 people living in the same household, and somewhere else
22 I read there were 18.
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner, that was --
24 thank you for raising that point. I read in the Psych
25 Report there was like five, six, different things in
Northern California Court Reporters 15
1 there that are not accurate. I was going to point those
2 out when we came to --
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: When we get to
4 the Psych Report, that's fine.
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Okay.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Were there
7 anything that rise to a level of significance that
8 you --- that you want to point out that --
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Well --
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- might have
11 changed the outcome of the --
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Well, I -- yes, I'm sorry.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- of the
14 clinician's findings?
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Well, the one -- most of them
16 are minor stuff, but one thing that stood out that it
17 says in there that I said that people were in there
18 ratting on each other, I did not say that. The
19 doctor -- the psychiatrist asked me how was my work and
20 I said my --
21 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: You can take the
22 document out if you want and then you can tell us what
23 you're referring to.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: You're --
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I'm sorry.
Northern California Court Reporters 16
1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: You're referring
2 to your --
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Psych.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- when you were
5 working.
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: When you were
8 working in the kitchen or something.
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes, absolutely, yes.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: That the inmates
11 were expected to rat on each other or they were ratting
12 on each other --
13 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- and you
15 (inaudible).
16 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. The doctor asked me
17 how work was, and I said the work was fine except that
18 they were a lot of men in there walking around, calling
19 each other rats, and that it was unfortunate. And it
20 also says in there that some --
21 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Can you tell us the
22 page and so --
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
24 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- we'd be on -- so
25 literally we'd be on the same page.
Northern California Court Reporters 17
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Okay. I'm sorry.
2 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: So we can have a
3 clear record.
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Thank you.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: I think it's on
6 page 9 at the very bottom. Is that his --
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- statement?
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: It's on page 21 at the very
10 bottom.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Page 21?
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: The initial
14 reference though is on page 9, is that what you're
15 referring to, at the very bottom? He stated he had
16 never been fired from an inmate position but left a
17 kitchen job when asked "to rat on people."
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
19 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Yeah, page 9.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Unquote.
21 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Page 9 on the --of
22 the last -- the last one line.
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I'm sorry. I said 21. I'm
24 sorry. Yeah, page 9. Yeah.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
Northern California Court Reporters 18
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. So what happened is he
2 asked me about my job and I told him that my job was
3 fine, and he also says here that somebody asked me to
4 rat on. Nobody has ever asked me that in my prison
5 life, you know, that -- I never --
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Never been asked
7 to do that?
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. So that's just a
9 mistake and I just want to correct. And then there's
10 one on the same page on the third paragraph from the
11 top, on the same --
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
13 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- page. Where it says, I
14 made an oath to myself don't do drugs, don't assault
15 anyone. You get it -- get that part? Did you --
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Yes.
17 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- find it? Okay. Anyone is
18 supposed to be staff. I said don't do drugs. I don't
19 assault staff. He accidently got anyone. That's
20 supposed to be staff, like COs and free staff. That's
21 what I said, I believe --
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. So it was
23 okay to assault inmates, but not staff?
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Well, I made an oath to
25 myself that I did have a few fights, but my main concern
Northern California Court Reporters 19
1 was my -- not -- never attack a staff and stuff, but in
2 case of inmates, if I was attacked, that I was going to
3 fight back or if somebody disrespected me, that this is
4 I'm in my 20s, you know, and that's what it -- that's
5 true, that's what I felt. Yes.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: And that was only
7 in reference to your prison behavior --
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Absolutely, yes.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- correct --
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes, absolutely.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- in reference
12 to your disciplinary record?
13 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes, absolutely.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. All right.
15 So staff as opposed to anyone?
16 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. Were there
18 any other --
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I believe the other ones is
20 like a couple areas where it says my parents told me
21 something about the past. I believe I said my
22 grandparents, not my parents.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: And on -- okay, on page 17 --
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
Northern California Court Reporters 20
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- on the last -- on the
2 paragraph before the last.
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: The last full
4 paragraph?
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes. Where it says --
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- when I asked what his
8 chances of being violent in the future, Mr. Sassounian
9 said, no. I believe that's supposed to be none. I said
10 and none -- N-O-N-E.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: None?
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. I think that just
13 might be a typing problem.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. Okay.
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I think those are it,
16 Commissioner. Commissioner, there might be something
17 very minors in there. If it comes up --
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- I'll point --
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: If something --
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- those out.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: If something else
23 comes to mind when we go through the Risk Assessment,
24 you can point that out for us so that we can have
25 clarity on the Risk Assessment.
Northern California Court Reporters 21
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Thank you, Commissioner. I
2 will.
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Thank you.
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Thank you.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. So we were
6 talking about your pre-conviction factors. We noted
7 where you were born, the size of your family, your
8 household, and it -- sorry, very small writing. I can't
9 read my own writing here. You also have reported that
10 you live near Palestinians and as a child there was rock
11 throwing between you and Palestinian children, and that
12 age -- at age 11, the war broke out between Palestinians
13 and Lebanese and the Armenians apparently remained
14 neutral at that time. And both sides tried to recruit
15 the Armenians to come to their side and apparently,
16 there were victims. There were Armenians who were
17 killed as part of that process, including one of your
18 cousins; is that correct?
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: One of your
21 cousins was a victim at that time. And also with
22 respect to your siblings, you describe having a rather
23 tough childhood, you recall a lot of hunger.
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Oh, yes.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Personally
Northern California Court Reporters 22
1 witnessing a lot of violence not only out on the streets
2 but also within the home. There was some domestic
3 violence it would -- it would appear. So there was also
4 some trauma that was -- that you've reported as a
5 result. You may not have used that word, that may have
6 been just my conclusion. But within the family home,
7 you deny that there was any abuse, like sexual abuse,
8 physical abuse, and emotional abuse. Although you did
9 point out that your father based on your description, it
10 sounds like he suffered from alcoholism. Would you
11 agree with that statement?
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes, absolutely.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. And that
14 he became abusive, primarily with your mother, and
15 sometimes with the children when he was under the
16 influence of alcohol; is that true?
17 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: That's true.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. And so,
19 you observed some of that domestic violence. Your
20 mother apparently was a domestic worker that was
21 employed by a wealthy family in the war zone of West
22 Beirut, so she would leave a couple of weeks at a time
23 to work for the family and then come home. So you were
24 left in the care of your father or more likely your
25 older sisters.
Northern California Court Reporters 23
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: True.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Right? And so,
3 mom was not as readily available as you might have
4 liked.
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: And so, you have
7 pointed that out. I'll get that back to that point. It
8 looked -- you have also reported that you saw firsthand
9 dead bodies, a number of women and children who had
10 been -- who were victims of the war at that time and you
11 also heard a lot of stories from family, parents, and
12 grandparents more likely about how the Turks had treated
13 Armenians during the -- during the political conflict
14 earlier in this century; is that correct?
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: We've heard a lot
17 of stories -- as a young child? When did you start
18 hearing those stories?
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: When I was seven, eight years
20 old maybe, around there.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay? And I
22 think you have reported those had somewhat of an imprint
23 on you. Do you understand the word imprint?
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: That had an
Northern California Court Reporters 24
1 impact. By the age of 13, your family moved to the
2 United States --
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- right? And
5 was that -- was that a voluntary move by the family?
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: My grandparents were here and
7 they kept asking us to come over here because of the
8 dangers in Lebanon, and eventually they agreed -- my
9 parents agreed, and then we came over.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. And did
11 you come to this country through a legal process?
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Oh, yes. We came here -- the
13 day we landed in the airport, I believe they gave us our
14 green cards. Yes.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: They gave you a
16 green card?
17 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. And we saw
19 a copy of your passport in the -- in the -- in the file.
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Thank you.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: So the family
24 moves to the United States. I think they settled in
25 Pasadena, California, part of Los Angeles County; is
Northern California Court Reporters 25
1 that correct?
2 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Did you move
4 around for a while at first, and then settle in
5 Pasadena?
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No. We went to stay at our
7 grandparents' house, which was a small house in
8 Pasadena.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. And were
10 there less people living in that household or same large
11 number of people living with your grandparents?
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Well, it was my grandparents
13 were living alone. It was a very small house --
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- and we moved in with seven
16 people I think, so it was very crowded.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. So you
18 immediately crowded their household -- their space.
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: But they wanted
21 you there.
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: So they were --
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Like we were. Yeah.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- happy to see
Northern California Court Reporters 26
1 you. Okay. So you were able to escape the war and that
2 violence in Lebanon at the time. And I believe that
3 there was a sizable Armenian community in Pasadena at
4 the time and I think still is?
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I believe so. Yes.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. By 15, you
7 started getting into some trouble, getting into fights
8 at school -- primarily at school I think. Generally,
9 though, you have reported that you respected authority;
10 is that true?
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: But you did get
13 disciplined at school for slashing a teacher's tire with
14 a knife, and that happened to be (inaudible).
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. That was in Lebanon
16 when I was like nine years old.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: So that's --
20 okay. So that's an -- that's an error in the record
21 because that's reflected as occurring when you were 15.
22 That was in Lebanon?
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: That was in Lebanon.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. I wondered
25 about that. Okay. So you were how old, nine?
Northern California Court Reporters 27
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I was like nine years old.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. And this
3 was an Arab teacher --
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- correct?
6 Okay. So as early as nine, you were trying to make a
7 political statement of some sort or what was all that --
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- what was that
10 all about?
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: She was a teacher that she
12 kept cussing out Armenians in Armenian school and we
13 were all like nine years old or ten years old --
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- and me and a couple of my
16 friends, like, you know, we got -- we got upset with
17 her. So we -- her car was parked right below the
18 classrooms, you know --
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- and we tried to slash her
21 tire with a -- with a small -- we had a small knife, we
22 tried to slash the tire, and we were caught and that was
23 it.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. All right.
25 So thank you for clarifying --
Northern California Court Reporters 28
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- that it was a
3 much younger age. By the age of 16, though you were
4 engaging in some property crimes like theft and things
5 like that --
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- with your
8 friends. Now, who were your friends at the time?
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I had --
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Not necessarily
11 by name, but who --
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: They were -- I had friends
13 from high school -- in the high school I went to. There
14 was like 20, 30 other Armenians that went to John Muir
15 High School with me. I used to hang around with them
16 mostly.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Mostly
18 Armenian --
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- other Armenian
21 students? Okay. And then you ended up -- were you --
22 did you drop out or were you expelled from school?
23 Because you --
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I --
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- stopped going
Northern California Court Reporters 29
1 to school?
2 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes. I was -- I was -- I was
3 going to John Muir High School but I was -- I ditched so
4 many classes that I was sent to Foothill High School
5 which was like --
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Continuation?
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- for the bad students,
8 what, I don't know.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Continuation
10 school?
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. On Foothill in
12 Pasadena. Also I went there for I don't know, a few
13 weeks or a few months. And after that I think, I
14 believe I quit and this was in the tenth grade.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. Tenth
16 grade? But you have subsequently attained your GED;
17 correct?
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes. I got that in Tehachapi
19 in '91, I believe -- '90, '91.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. I think it
21 was in -- I think the record reflects 1990.
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Okay.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: But so good for
24 you. That's important to have that education before you
25 leave prison, certainly.
Northern California Court Reporters 30
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Okay.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: It's something
3 that we certainly encourage. Okay. Now, you've also
4 taken classes in Patten College; correct?
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Oh, here, yes.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Here, in prison?
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: And so how many
9 units do you have now?
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner, I don't have
11 any -- I don't think I got any units. I took the --
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Oh, none?
13 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I took the 99A I believe, and
14 I went --
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
16 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I passed it to 99B, and it
17 was too much for me. I couldn't do it. And I was
18 asking a lot of people to help me and I felt embarrassed
19 and, you know, it just -- it just -- it was over my head
20 and I thought it was the only thing --
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- the best thing for me to
23 quit than to have other people do my homework, because I
24 was just -- could not focus.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Are you saying it
Northern California Court Reporters 31
1 was too difficult or were there other things going on?
2 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: There was -- it was too
3 difficult for me, and at the same time I've never been
4 the one that was -- that loved going to school, you
5 know, from my childhood on. And I -- and I felt that it
6 would be wrong for me to ask too much help for other
7 people to help me -- in other words, like cheating. I
8 just -- and I thought it was best for me for just to
9 quit because my heart wasn't in it, I wasn't smart
10 enough for it. You know, I thought -- you know, because
11 I've always been a work guy, I never --
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
13 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- liked going to school, you
14 know. So it's my fault. It's my --
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
16 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- doing.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: That's okay. Not
18 everybody is cut out for college. That's fine. Yeah.
19 I did see where you got a D in one class.
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: So you just made
22 a decision to discontinue.
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: That's fine. You
25 do have a strong work history, though. Apparently, you
Northern California Court Reporters 32
1 like working. Back in the community you had a number of
2 jobs working. And at the time of the crime, I believe
3 you were working as an armed security guard; is that
4 right or not?
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes. I was, yes.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Were you armed?
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No. No. Absolutely --
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Not armed?
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- not. But it was -- this
10 was a factory where they had a lot of machines that they
11 left on at nights and they needed somebody to keep an
12 eye so nothing caught fire. I was working there like
13 three or four weeks maybe, before I was arrested.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: All right. So
15 you were a security guard --
16 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- at the time of
18 the crime; correct?
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: At the what?
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: At the time of
21 the crime?
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes. Yes. I'm sorry. Yes.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: All right. In
24 terms of your criminal history, there isn't a documented
25 juvenile record. Did you commit any crimes before
Northern California Court Reporters 33
1 coming to the United States?
2 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Well, when I was a kid in
3 Lebanon, yeah, we were very hungry. I mean, we had no
4 money. So I did -- I did steal -- I did steal food and
5 stuff, you know.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I did steal food and stuff
8 when I was a kid to eat, you know, bananas, apples,
9 oranges from the bazaars and stuff.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm. But you
11 were never arrested for a crime?
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No, not in Lebanon. No.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: And no acts of
14 violence?
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. All right.
17 Then as an adult, your criminal history begins at age
18 18. January 27th, 1981, you were arrested for an
19 assault with a deadly weapon. That was rejected by the
20 DA, it looks like. Subsequent to that, on October 30th,
21 1981, this is just a few months before the crime, you
22 were still 18 years old, you were arrested for forging a
23 name on a credit card. So this is property -- a
24 property crime. It's not a violent crime. You were
25 given 36 months probation.
Northern California Court Reporters 34
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Is that right?
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes. But --
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Three years'
5 probation?
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. What happened there,
7 Commissioner, that the crime is true, but I was not on
8 probation. What happened is that --
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: They didn't place
10 you on probation?
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: You were already
13 in jail.
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I hadn't been sentenced yet.
15 That was when I caught the murder for Mr. Arikan. After
16 that about two, three weeks when I was in county jail
17 for the murder of Mr. Arikan, I was taken to court and I
18 was put on probation.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: So in other words, I was not
21 on probation when I committed this murder.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I just wanted to --
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: You weren't --
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- clarify it.
Northern California Court Reporters 35
1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- on probation
2 yet.
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Not yet, that's true.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Right?
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Absolutely.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Yeah.
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: You are right 100 percent.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. But you
9 had already committed the credit card theft --
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: True.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: - and were on
12 your way to getting probation -- a three-year probation
13 term. All right. But it looks like those are the only
14 documented offenses.
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Did you commit
17 any other acts of violence in the community that you
18 were never arrested for?
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I did have a couple of fist
20 fights in John Muir High School with this one guy, it
21 was, you know, a girl thing with, you know, we had the
22 eye on the same girl. I did have a fist fight and I
23 would say about seven -- maybe six, seven, eight cases
24 where I would -- there was right across my house in
25 Pasadena there was Alpha Beta and a couple blocks away
Northern California Court Reporters 36
1 there was a Vons Supermarkets --
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- and I did go in there like
4 when I was a 15, 16, 17-year-old and I did steal like
5 hams and stuff to eat. I did do that.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. All right.
7 So again, more property crimes. Okay. All right.
8 Thank you for that. Were you ever part of a criminal
9 street gang?
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Criminal what?
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Criminal street
12 gang.
13 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Any gangs out on
15 the -- on the street --
16 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- in the
18 community?
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Did you ever
21 participate with a disruptive group -- get involved with
22 a disruptive group in prison?
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Like a gang or --
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No.
Northern California Court Reporters 37
1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Did you -- who do
2 you associate with in prison?
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Associate with? When I first
4 came in, they had me down as other --
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- and I -- they were celling
7 me up with a bunch of different, you know, races.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Well, let me correct that so
10 for the record. When I first started my time, I started
11 it here in San Quentin, and I was -- all the time I was
12 single cell in (inaudible). Back then it was a mainline
13 building, so I never had a cellie. But from here in
14 1987, when we were -- I was sent to New Folsom which had
15 just opened. And for the first time, I had a cellie
16 there, and I think he was Mexican or he was other, I
17 don't remember what he was (inaudible). But as far as
18 in gangs, I did not affiliate with any prison gangs
19 whatsoever. But in 1991 or '92, when I was in
20 Tehachapi, there were three, four other Armenians there,
21 and one of them said why are you listed as other, you
22 know, they can cell you up with anything -- anybody,
23 excuse me, Mexicans and Cubans and everything. And he
24 said well, how come you're not listed as what because
25 every one of the Armenians they were listed as white.
Northern California Court Reporters 38
1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
2 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: And so he said go to your
3 counselor and tell her to list you as white. So I went
4 and she switched me to white, and I think she looked at
5 the Probation Officer's Report, and it says white on
6 my -- race says white on my Probation Report. So she
7 switched it as white, but every time I get transferred,
8 they look at my old paperwork, and they keep putting me
9 as other, in some areas and --
10 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: It says --
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- but it --
12 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- it says other
13 now.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Right.
15 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: The current says
16 other.
17 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Right.
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: But they -- on my daily what
20 is that called? Daily (inaudible) sheet?
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: (Inaudible),
22 sheet?
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. I'm listed as white on
24 that, so they cell me up with whites.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Cell you with
Northern California Court Reporters 39
1 whites?
2 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: But as far as gang,
5 Commissioner, I don't --
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: You've never
7 been --
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I don't --
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- affiliated --
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- like gangs.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- with gangs?
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I don't like shot callers.
13 It's not -- I never liked people telling me what I have
14 to do as a young man or in prison. I just never liked
15 that. So I never became affiliated with any gangs and
16 in Level IV prisons, the whites, you know, I was a
17 porter in a lot of buildings, they would say, hey, take
18 this knife to that cell or take this outfit, syringes,
19 and stuff. I would tell him, hey, leave me out of it.
20 You know, there is other porters, leave me out of it. I
21 don't do that, you know. I don't (inaudible). And
22 that's why a couple of times it came up that I'm
23 surprised they didn't stab me for not doing that, but I
24 never did it because it just -- I don't like do it, I
25 don't like drugs. I don't like people using drugs. And
Northern California Court Reporters 40
1 that's why I didn't want to be part of that. I didn't
2 want to --
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: All right.
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- to carry a knife that
5 somebody would get stabbed with, you know.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. Well, do
7 you have any tattoos?
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes, I do.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Did you
10 receive -- when did you get them?
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I got my first tattoo in
12 Tehachapi, right before I was listed as white, I had a
13 Mexican --
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Cellie?
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- Southsider, I think. I
16 think he might have been Southsider -- a Southsider
17 cellie, and he was one of those guys that tattooed --
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- in prison. And I had no
20 tattoos and he kept saying, Harry, you know, let me
21 tattoo on you and for a couple of months I kept saying
22 no. No, I don't want any tattoos.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Then one day I just said
25 okay, you know, all right, man. Then the question
Northern California Court Reporters 41
1 became what I want to put on there and I don't want to
2 put no naked woman on me. I didn't want to put prison
3 chains or gun powers and stuff, and I -- then that's all
4 he had. And he said, why don't you put something
5 Armenian on it. And I said I don't have nothing
6 Armenian. And back then I used to get -- I used to get
7 Armenian newspapers. And he said, don't you have
8 something in your photo album or in the -- in the
9 newspapers that you could use, like some kind of
10 Armenian -- the church, whatever.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: So I looked through them and
13 I couldn't find any church. I wanted to put this Mount
14 Ararat, which Noah's ark land on in Armenia. It's a
15 biblical mountain. I wanted to put a picture of that
16 because pretty much every Armenian house got that
17 picture, you know. And I couldn't find a picture of
18 Mount Ararat, so I kept looking. And there was this
19 symbol of -- it's called a unity symbol, you know, that
20 some political army and organization use that and not
21 only political, pretty much anybody. It's like Mount
22 Rushmore, it's like the Statue of Liberty for the
23 Armenian people. So I found a picture of that in the
24 newspaper. He said why don't you put that on. And I --
25 and I told him okay, put that on, but under -- a lot of
Northern California Court Reporters 42
1 those symbols underneath it says ARF, Armenian
2 Revolutionary Federation.
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: And I didn't want to put
5 Armenian Revolutionary Federation because I'm not a
6 member of it. I didn't -- you know, I didn't -- I
7 didn't want that on there. So --
8 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Are you talking
9 about Dashnak?
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes. Yes.
11 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Dashnak?
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: They're also called Tashnak.
13 Yes. So I told him instead to put the word Armenian
14 underneath instead of putting ARF and that's what it
15 says underneath, is Armenian.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. So you
17 have that unity symbol with Armenian underneath?
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes. And --
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Is it on your
22 chest or where is that on your --
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: It's right there on my left
24 side.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Left chest --
Northern California Court Reporters 43
1 left side of your chest.
2 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: And you want me to tell you
3 the other ones, too?
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: What's the other
5 one?
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: And the other one is a -- is
7 a tattoo of an eagle. I had a white cellie in
8 Lancaster --
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- in I would say '98, '97 --
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- and he was also a tattoo
13 guy. He kept pressing me to put a tattoo on. So I told
14 him -- I gave in to him, and he put -- it's a head of an
15 eagle right here and he put -- and I told him to put
16 Armenian Pride on there. It's kind of odd because later
17 I learned that the eagle was a Mexican eagle so --
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Yeah.
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: So --
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: A little
21 confusing.
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: So --
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: But you have the
24 words Armenian Pride?
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Armenian Pride under it --
Northern California Court Reporters 44
1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Under the eagle?
2 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- in prison everybody puts
3 Mexican Pride, White Pride, and this pride and that
4 pride, and I told him to put Armenian Pride on there.
5 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Is Dashnak a
6 political party in Armenia?
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes, I believe so. Yes.
8 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: What kind of
9 political party is it, do you know?
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: It's a political party that
11 works to a number of things, to keep the Armenian people
12 together, to get Armenian Genocide recognized around the
13 world. And they also believe that the lands that are
14 occupied by Turkey, that's -- that is recognized by
15 Treaty of Sevres, I think in 1920, that belongs to the
16 Armenian people. And President Wilson had a mandate on
17 it that these people -- these lands belong to the
18 Armenian people. And the Dashnaks believe that those
19 lands should be given back to the Armenian people.
20 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Are they militant
21 as far as you know or how do they --
22 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: I'm sorry, I didn't hear the
23 word -- are they?
24 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Militant.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Militant.
Northern California Court Reporters 45
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Militant.
2 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: No, the Dashnak party is
3 pretty much marginalized at this point in Armenia. The
4 Dashnak party was active, for the record so it's clear,
5 during the period of the Soviet Union. The Dashnak
6 party kind of exiled itself.
7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: I appreciate --
8 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: Once they --
9 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- your expertise,
10 but I'm interested in what he knows.
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Thank you.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Or what he
13 believes.
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Okay.
15 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: And what he
16 believes.
17 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Okay.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Yeah. Whether
19 it's true or not --
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- or accurate or
22 not, just what does he believe. Because you obviously
23 made a conscious decision to put that symbol on your --
24 tattoo it on your body permanently, so it meant
25 something, it had some significance to you.
Northern California Court Reporters 46
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: It did, yes.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: What did it --
3 what did it mean to you?
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: To me it meant the symbol --
5 it's symbol of Armenia, it meant unity for the Armenian
6 people. That's what it meant to me, you know. That's
7 what it meant to me and that's what it's still meant to
8 me. But I want to take it off. I want to take all my
9 tattoos off, but that's beside the point, I know.
10 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: That's not beside
11 the point.
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
13 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Why do you want to
14 take it off?
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Because I don't, you know,
16 because it -- you know, I shouldn't have put them on in
17 the first place, you know. And I really did it because
18 they kept chewing my ear off to put tattoos on because
19 they liked -- you know, I'm not saying it's their fault,
20 I'm the one that made the decision. I shouldn't have
21 done it but --
22 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: (Inaudible).
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- I'd rather not have them
24 on, you know.
25 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Yeah. I
Northern California Court Reporters 47
1 understand, but are you taking it off because it's a
2 violation of prison rules or are you taking it off for
3 some other reason, the Tashnak tattoo?
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: You mean -- I'm sorry, I
5 didn't --
6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: You're talking
7 about removing the Dashnak --
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
9 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- tattoo. And I'm
10 asking you, are you taking it off because you weren't
11 supposed to get it in the first place --
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No. No. No.
13 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- (inaudible).
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner, I have no
15 affiliation with the Dashnaks. I don't care what the
16 Dashnaks think. I don't care. They have -- they have
17 no influence on me whatsoever. And like I said in the
18 beginning, I don't see it as a symbol of Dashnaks. It's
19 like Mount Rushmore, the Statue of Liberty. It's not
20 the symbol of the Republicans, Mexicans, or the whites,
21 or the -- or the Asians; it's the symbol of United
22 States, and that's how I saw it at the time, as a
23 symbol.
24 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: You like the
25 artwork; is that what you're telling us?
Northern California Court Reporters 48
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Well, I mean, you know, it's
2 a -- it's a sword, a quill, and a shovel which means the
3 defense of Armenian people, the quill means history, and
4 the shovel means labor. That's what the meaning of it
5 is.
6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Did it have
7 political significance to you when you got it?
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Oh, yes. Yes, it did. Yes,
9 it did.
10 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: And what does it
11 mean to you today?
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Today it means nothing. It's
13 just a tattoo to me today, but at the time, like I said
14 that, you know, I wanted -- I was being chewed to put
15 something, a tattoo on, and that's the -- I wish I had
16 the picture of Mount Ararat or the -- or a picture of an
17 Armenian church to put on instead.
18 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay.
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: But I couldn't find it, you
20 know, and that's what I put on because it did to me --
21 it did mean that's a symbol of Armenia.
22 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Since we're talking
23 about tattoos, I just thought that would be a good time
24 to talk about it. Okay. Thank you.
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Okay.
Northern California Court Reporters 49
1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. Very good.
2 So that's interesting, an eagle with Armenia underneath.
3 That's what you said you have? You have an eagle with
4 Armenia?
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Armenia pride on top of it.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Armenian Pride --
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- on top of it?
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Armenian Pride?
11 And then the other is the unity symbol with Armenia
12 underneath?
13 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Armenian, yes.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Armenian?
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. Okay. All
17 right. Let's -- I want to go back to an issue that's
18 relevant here and that is, we were talking about
19 criminal street gangs. You said that you were never
20 affiliated with a criminal street gang out in the
21 community. Did you ever carry weapons when you were out
22 in the community?
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: We did. I did go shooting a
24 few times and I did carry a weapon. Yes.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. You did
Northern California Court Reporters 50
1 have what, carry a weapon?
2 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: You did carry a
4 weapon?
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes. To go shooting. Yes.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Just to go
7 shooting?
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: But when -- but
10 just going out to work or socially or any other reason,
11 did you ever --
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- carry a
14 firearm?
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Not like that. But I did --
16 I had -- I had bought a shotgun when I was 18 years old
17 that was mostly in my house. And there -- I think there
18 was a couple of occasions that the shotgun was in the --
19 in the -- in the trunk of the car.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. Why? Why
21 did you put it in the trunk of the car?
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: To take it to go shooting.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Just to go
24 shooting?
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. Yeah. No, I did not
Northern California Court Reporters 51
1 carry guns with me to places I go --
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- except when I went to
4 shooting.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: And you would go
6 shooting where? What would you shoot?
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: There was -- there was this
8 place, it's called Big Pines where a lot of people went
9 shooting, and it was like right across the street from
10 this Armenian camp called AYF Camp with any Armenian
11 called organizations and they could -- there was like, I
12 don't know maybe ten cabins there that (inaudible) a
13 couple of times a year, people would rent the place to
14 go there. And there was -- like about a half a mile
15 from that camp, there was this place that it kind of was
16 like (inaudible) -- bulldozing, and people went there to
17 shoot.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: And then when I went -- I
20 went there --
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Like a range.
22 Was it like a --
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- range?
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: It was not official --
Northern California Court Reporters 52
1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: (Inaudible) a
2 range?
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I don't believe it was an
4 official range, no.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: So what does AYF
6 stand for?
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: It means for -- it stands for
8 Armenian Youth Federation.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: That's what I
10 thought. Okay. And so it was like a camp, you'd go
11 shooting there. What would you shoot at?
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: It was just, you know, just
13 soda cans and whatever.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. Okay. So
15 it was basically target practice?
16 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Were you a pretty
18 good shot? Did you become a pretty good shot, a
19 marksman so to speak?
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I can't say if I was. I mean
21 a lot of shots, I shot I missed and some did hit the
22 cans and stuff, yes.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. So how
24 often would you say you did that? Like once a week?
25 Once a month? Once a --
Northern California Court Reporters 53
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Oh, no.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- year?
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No. I believe maybe I went
4 shooting with my crime partner like three or four or
5 five times. I'm just guessing. It could be six, seven
6 times. But it was -- it was, you know, below ten.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: And what would --
8 what weapon or firearm would you use when you did the
9 target practice?
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: A lot of times when we went
11 there, there were also other people there already. They
12 were just, you know, old men, you know, this is not just
13 Armenians. There were, you know --
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: No, but when you
15 went, what kind of firearm did you use?
16 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Oh, it was a .9-milimeter
17 most of the time.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: A .9-milimeter?
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: And what weapon
21 did you use in the crime?
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I used a .45.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: A .45? Okay.
24 And so it wasn't the same weapon that you practiced
25 with?
Northern California Court Reporters 54
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. Had you
3 ever shot that weapon before, the .45?
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner, I did not.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. You
6 mentioned your crime partner. What was his name?
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Koko Saleba.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. And Koko
9 is two K's; right, K-O-K-O?
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: And Koko, how did
14 you -- or I should say, when did you meet Koko? Or how
15 long had you known him, roughly?
16 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I'm going to guess because
17 I'm not sure. I'm going to say maybe '79 or so, 1979 I
18 met him. I think he was in a party that, you know, an
19 Armenian party where --
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: You --
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- families go.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- met him in
23 Lebanon? Back in your home country?
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No. No. In United States.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: In United States?
Northern California Court Reporters 55
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. Now, what
3 year did you say you came here?
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: In '77.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: '77? Okay. So
6 you met him at a party?
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: And then you
9 became friends --
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- or associates.
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: You hung out
14 together and things. And was he part of any radical
15 group or any political group?
16 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I think he was part of the
17 AYF at first, then he became a member of the ARF, I
18 believe, in maybe '81 or something.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: In 1981, so that
20 would have been in the proximity before the crime.
21 Because the crime occurred in January of '82?
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes. Yes.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: So did you become
24 a member of the ARF?
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No. You cannot be a member
Northern California Court Reporters 56
1 of ARF unless you're 21, I believe.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: So you were too
3 young?
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I was 19, yes.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: If you were 21,
6 would you have joined?
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Most probably, yes.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Most likely. So
9 he was -- was he 21; Koko?
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: He was 21, yes. I believe
11 maybe 22.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. Was that
13 typical for you to associate with older -- people older
14 than you? Because it doesn't seem -- four years doesn't
15 seem significant, but at 18 years old, it is. That's
16 a -- that's a significant age difference. Most 18 year
17 olds are hanging out with 18, 19 year olds.
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: And 22 year olds
20 are hanging out with 22, 23 year olds.
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. But Koko,
22 Commissioner, I didn't hang out with him at all, much at
23 all in the beginning because he was going to college and
24 he had -- he worked in a carpet place, I think. And so
25 like the first year or so, I rarely ever saw him, you
Northern California Court Reporters 57
1 know, because he was always -- he had a girlfriend and
2 he was always busy. So most of the time, we would see
3 each other at the Armenian Center and a lot of the
4 groups, you know, with guys and girls, somebody would
5 say or I would say let's go drink coffee and we would
6 just go to Burger King or somewhere, a place in
7 Pasadena, and we would just kick for an hour or two and
8 then everybody would leave. So that's how we kind of --
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- started getting along.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: So through the
12 culture group, the --
13 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- Armenian
15 Center is kind of a cultural group. And then, of
16 course, in proximity to the crime, you started to spend
17 a lot more time with him; is that right?
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes. Yes.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. So we'll
20 talk about that a little bit more in a minute. But I
21 was -- I wanted to be clear on your prior use of weapons
22 prior to the -- prior to the crime. So you owned that
23 weapon that you talked about, the one that you used for
24 hunting?
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: The shotgun, I owned the
Northern California Court Reporters 58
1 shotgun, yes.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Shotgun. All
3 right. Then just briefly with respect to your alcohol
4 and drug history, you apparently tried alcohol as a
5 juvenile, but you apparently never developed a habit of
6 drinking alcohol.
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Is that right?
9 And you mentioned earlier that you didn't like drugs at
10 all?
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: You denied any
13 use of any illegal substances. And I don't think
14 there's any evidence in the record of your using any
15 alcohol or drugs in prison. But that doesn't mean you
16 didn't use. So have you ever used any form of alcohol
17 in prison?
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Any drugs --
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- legal or
22 illegal?
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No. Well, I do take --
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: You take that --
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- pills for --
Northern California Court Reporters 59
1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- you take
2 pills?
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. So you do
5 take pills and do you take them as prescribed?
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Absolutely, I do. The pill I
7 take is cholesterol pill and baby aspirins. That's the
8 only --
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- thing.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: So you don't
12 hoard your meds or anything like that --
13 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- to sell them
15 to other inmates --
16 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No. No.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- or anything
18 like that? Okay. That's not -- that's not you.
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I don't care about drugs.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. All right.
21 I did want to go back to a question about your siblings.
22 Were any of your siblings involved in the Justice
23 Commandos or Armenian -- of Armenian Genocide?
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I don't believe so. No.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: No? Were any of
Northern California Court Reporters 60
1 your siblings involved with any other radical groups?
2 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No, I don't believe so.
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. Were you
4 involved with any radical groups?
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I was involved with this
6 crime, Commissioner, and I know that there is a group
7 that claimed responsibility for this murder of
8 Mr. Arikan. At the time of the crime, me and my crime
9 partner, when we decided, this is like December of
10 '81 --
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- to murder Mr. Arikan, we
13 made a commitment to ourselves that this was going to
14 remain strictly between us. And when I was -- after the
15 murder, when I was in county jail --
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: So let me --let
17 me stop you for one second.
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Okay.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: What is the name
20 of the group, just so the record is clear that claimed
21 responsibility for the -- for your life crime?
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Justice Commandos of the
23 Armenian Genocide, I believe.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. All right.
25 But you're saying that they -- well, they claimed
Northern California Court Reporters 61
1 responsibility. But in December of '81, when you were
2 planning the crime with your partner, Koko, that the two
3 of you made a decision that this was going to be what
4 now?
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: That it was going to be
6 strictly between me and him. And that --
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Strictly between
8 you and him?
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. That we planned every
10 aspect of this (inaudible) -- this murder. And then at
11 no time, did I ever meet anybody else, at no time did we
12 say, hey, there's this group, let's go join this group,
13 or nothing. That's when I was in county jail and that
14 Justice Commandos of the Armenian Genocide claimed
15 responsibility for this -- for the murder, I was just
16 shocked. And I -- and I felt like, you know, he kept
17 something from me, that he didn't tell me that he had
18 somebody else involved or other people involved.
19 Because I was upset, to be frank, you know, because I
20 didn't like it, because I felt like he didn't keep his
21 word that he did tell other people about it.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Well, you had
23 known him for a few years now; right? But you had been
24 associate --
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. I did know him for
Northern California Court Reporters 62
1 three years, four years maybe.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Three or four
3 years, and then you were spending quite a bit more time
4 with him --
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: But --
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- in proximity
7 to the crime.
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: True.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: And what you --
10 are you -- well, you seem to be implying that he shared
11 your plot with the Justice Commandos of the Armenian
12 Genocide. and that that's why they took credit for it;
13 is that what you were saying?
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: He told somebody because, you
15 know, I also noticed in the papers that there was a
16 phone call made after a few minutes after the murder.
17 Well, a few minutes after the murder, he was with me,
18 you know. Because I drove to Pasadena and he was with
19 me for at least 45 minutes or an hour --
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- after the murder. So if
22 I'm not wrong, a few minutes, to me means five, ten, 15
23 minutes.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: So apparently he didn't make
Northern California Court Reporters 63
1 the phone call and I didn't make the phone call. So
2 somebody -- he told somebody else about it, that they
3 had to make the phone call because it wasn't him and it
4 wasn't me. So that's why I was upset that he did --
5 that he had to tell somebody else about it.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: The phone call
7 claiming responsibility of the crime?
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Well, did you
10 ever speak with anyone when you were planning the crime?
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No, absolutely not.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Anyone else?
13 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Just with him, yes.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Just with him?
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: With my -- with my crime
16 partner, yes.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: All right. Well,
18 wasn't your -- was your brother involved in the
19 firebombing or something --
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- a couple years
22 prior?
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes. I learned that when
24 I -- when he was arrested when I was in county jail
25 again in February or March of '82, I believe.
Northern California Court Reporters 64
1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. You
2 learned that when you were arrested?
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes. He was arrested for the
4 crime in 1980 like two years afterwards or something
5 like that.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. Well what
7 did you think he was in prison for?
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: He was not.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: In jail, what did
10 you think he was in --
11 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: He wasn't.
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: He was not in jail.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Wasn't your
14 brother arrested?
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No. He was arrested after I
16 committed --
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: After.
18 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: He was arrested afterwards.
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. I thought
21 you said he was arrested in 1980.
22 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: The offense took place --
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No, the offense was in 1980.
24 I'm sorry, Commissioner.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Yeah, the offense
Northern California Court Reporters 65
1 occurred in 1980 but --
2 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: Correct. But he was not
3 arrested until after Harry was arrested.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. All right.
5 But at the time of the -- of the firebombing, was your
6 brother affiliated with any political activist group
7 or (inaudible)?
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Not at all, Commissioner. He
9 didn't like nothing political. He didn't -- he was not
10 a member of any -- like I was a member of AYF and I
11 even, you know, he told me, like why you go to AY? Why
12 you go to those meetings for? What's the point, you
13 know. And the -- and the whole point was to prepare --
14 to learn about the Armenian history and culture and
15 prepare for a protest on April 24. And he didn't like
16 none of that and he was clowning me for being an AYF
17 member.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: He was -- why?
19 What was -- why?
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Because he didn't like
21 meetings. He didn't like none of that stuff. He was --
22 his main life centered on going out with girls. That's
23 what his whole life was about.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: And just for the
25 record, we're talking about your brother --
Northern California Court Reporters 66
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Harout.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Harout?
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: And that's H-A-R-
5 O-U-T?
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: And is there an
8 English translation?
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. I think the English
10 translation is Arthur, but he -- but --
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Oh.
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I learned that he told all
13 the girls his name was Tony, you know.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Tony?
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. That's what he --
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: That's a far --
17 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- preferred --
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- cry from--
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- to go by.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- Harout.
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes. I thought he was -- I
22 guess an Italian name, I guess is sexier.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. But
24 apparently that occurred in -- I believe that was in
25 October of 1980. So about 15 months or so prior to your
Northern California Court Reporters 67
1 life crime. Was this the same Ambassador whose house
2 was firebombed as the Ambassador that you killed?
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. I believe so. Yes.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. I mean,
5 was he the Ambassador at the time, I guess, is what I'm
6 asking?
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I guess so. I'm not -- in
8 the paperwork it says it but back then, I didn't know.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: You didn't know?
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I didn't know about the crime
11 he had committed. I didn't know who he had attacked.
12 But in the paperwork (inaudible) way back in county jail
13 that he had firebombed Mr. Arikan's house. I didn't
14 know about none of this when I committed my crime.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: It seems kind of
16 hard to believe that you wouldn't know that your brother
17 was involved in the firebombing of a Turkish diplomat.
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner, there is a
19 couple of different answers I give from that. First of
20 all, you know, me and my brother, we didn't, you know
21 everybody -- people think just because brothers are
22 brothers, that they are very close. I was not close to
23 my brother much at all, for number one. Number two,
24 Commissioner, that the -- when he firebombed
25 Mr. Arikan's house, you know, the DA, prior to this
Northern California Court Reporters 68
1 hearing, made the point that it was all over the
2 newspapers, and there was nothing in the newspapers at
3 all, not a single word. Because I had my niece look up
4 two years ago, and I even told her the date from the
5 Probation Officer's Report, there was nothing at all in
6 the -- in the media. She had -- she checked the LA
7 Times, there was nothing in the LA Times. She checked
8 in the Hill Examiner, which were at the time the two
9 biggest newspapers in LA and there was not a word about
10 the firebombing in it. So there was no way that I learn
11 about this from the media. And the other part of the
12 fact is, that if I had known, that I wouldn't be sitting
13 here right now because Mr. Arikan would have never been
14 murdered if I had known he had done that.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Why? Why would
16 that be so?
17 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Because, Commissioner, when I
18 and my crime partner decided to murder Mr. Arikan, as
19 much as we were determined to kill him, we were as much
20 determined not to harm anybody else. And if I -- if I
21 had known that my brother had done this, committed the
22 other couple (inaudible), that I would have told my
23 crime partner, Koko, that my brother had just attacked
24 Mr. Arikan house and we would have immediately assumed
25 that since Mr. Arikan was just attacked, that he would
Northern California Court Reporters 69
1 have bodyguards. And the fact is, that since he would
2 have bodyguards, we would have -- we would immediately
3 assume that these bodyguards could be Americans. And
4 the last thing we would ever want to do is harm any
5 Americans. But not only Americans, we didn't want to
6 harm any bodyguards, even if they were Turkish, because
7 we did not want to harm anybody else but Mr. Arikan.
8 That's what our intention. So I wish I had known about
9 what my brother did, because if I had known, Mr. Arikan
10 would be alive and well, and I wouldn't be sitting in
11 this chair right now.
12 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: That is a curious
13 statement. I thought originally when you said it was
14 like altruistic, but it's self-preservation; right? I
15 mean you're saying that he would have more security if
16 his house got firebombed, and other people would have
17 been at risk. Is that -- that's what you're saying?
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I'm sorry, Commissioner, can
19 you please repeat that?
20 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: So the reason you
21 made that statement is that it would have been more
22 difficult to kill Mr. Arikan had you known that your
23 brother firebombed his house previous to you taking his
24 life? Is that correct?
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: What we -- what I'm saying,
Northern California Court Reporters 70
1 Commissioner, is that we intended to murder Mr. Arikan,
2 and the reason we wanted to murder Mr. Arikan besides --
3 I'll get to later, was because he had given a press
4 conference saying that Armenians were liars and that
5 there was no genocide. And when I read that --
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: When did that
7 press conference take place?
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No. No. I --
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: When did that
10 take place?
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I think a few weeks or a
12 couple months before the murder.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Before the
14 murder?
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. My crime partner had a
16 little newspaper article he had brought with me, and I
17 read it that, you know, read what Mr. Arikan had said.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: That Armenians
19 were liars and --
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: They're liars --
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- and
22 (inaudible) --
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- there was no genocide took
24 place. And I -- and I took that very offensively at the
25 time that I felt, you know, strongly that he was -- he
Northern California Court Reporters 71
1 assaulted the Armenian people and that -- and that the
2 whole time he was the one that's lying about the facts
3 of history.
4 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: So had Mr. Arikan
5 had anybody else in the car, you wouldn't have went
6 forward?
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. As a matter, we talked
8 about that, Commissioner. And Koko said, you know, what
9 are you going to do if there's somebody in the car? And
10 I said, if somebody's in the car, he's going to right by
11 because I'm not going to shoot nobody that I don't know
12 who it is. And at one point, we did know that he had a
13 wife and a daughter.
14 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Um-hmm.
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- and so -- and the day
16 of -- the day before or two days before the murder, when
17 I -- when I saw Mr. Arikan drive, there was nobody in
18 the car. That's why when I went and told my crime
19 partner who was a block away, that I just saw him, he
20 asked was there anybody else with him, and I said no, he
21 was alone. So that day or then or the next day when we
22 discussed about how are we going to do this, and I told
23 him I'm not going to shoot anybody. That the only
24 purpose for us was to murder Mr. Arikan. If there was
25 anybody -- I saw anybody else, we're not going to harm
Northern California Court Reporters 72
1 him because as strong as our will was to murder
2 Mr. Arikan, the last thing, because -- the last thing we
3 wanted to do was harm anybody else.
4 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: So you, like in
5 prison, you had certain rules, certain codes of conduct
6 that you'd follow; right? I mean, your rule was by
7 himself, we're going to kill him; anybody else, we're
8 not going to kill him, in the car.
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Well, that's -- yeah. If I
10 understand your question correct, our intention was just
11 to harm him, nobody else.
12 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Not to really
13 change the subject, whatever happened to Mr. is it
14 Krikor Saliba?
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Koko.
16 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. I believe -- yeah,
17 when I was arrested, I never saw him -- after the
18 assassination, I never saw him again. I took him home
19 and that was the end of it. From what I know that he --
20 that he somehow escaped and went to Lebanon, and in
21 Lebanon -- there was a war in Lebanon, some bomb fell
22 close to his -- where he was and he died. That's what
23 I -- that's what I know.
24 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: He was never
25 subjected to American trial?
Northern California Court Reporters 73
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No, he was never arrested,
2 no.
3 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay. Thank you.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. Just to
5 make sure I understand, so if you had known about the
6 firebombing that your brother did about 15 months before
7 the crime, you would not have participated in the
8 murder?
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Not, Mr. Arikan. No. But my
10 state of mind at the time, Commissioner, was that, you
11 know, I will get to my internal stuff later, you know, I
12 guess. That I was so angry and so frustrated and I had
13 deep resentments about what they had done to -- they had
14 done to my people --
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
16 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- and I was -- I was -- I
17 was very angry and I was enraged about the historical
18 factors. And when I heard Mr. Arikan call Armenian
19 people liars for they -- about the -- what they went
20 through, that -- and I felt that this guy, instead of
21 apologizing for what they did to the Armenian people and
22 what they did to Armenia, he was giving press
23 conferences calling the Armenian people liars. And at
24 that age I was -- it just -- it just blew me over, and
25 I -- and I just -- I could not hold in my rage and my
Northern California Court Reporters 74
1 anger and I took up violence to punish him to --
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Yeah. But --
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- murder him.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- I understand
5 that.
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: I understand
8 that.
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: And so that's why
11 I don't understand why just because the home had been
12 firebombed 15 months before, would you not have
13 participated in the crime. Because all that anger and
14 all that rage --
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- surfaced like
17 a year later after Mr. Arikan made those statements
18 allegedly calling the Armenians liars and that there was
19 no genocide.
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. I was going to make
21 the point also but I got drifted off, that I would not
22 definitely -- I know for a hundred percent, that
23 Mr. Arikan would not ever have been murdered. But I did
24 have all the resentments inside me against the Turkish
25 government for not manning up and apologizing to the
Northern California Court Reporters 75
1 Armenian people what they did to the Armenian people,
2 and what they had done to Armenia because they will
3 still -- we kept hearing that they were still bulldozing
4 the Armenian churches and they were still converting
5 many Armenian churches to mosques. And all this rage
6 was building up. And even though I was determined to
7 murder Mr. Arikan, and if I had -- the reason I'm saying
8 that, if I had known that my brother had done that, I
9 would not have murdered Mr. Arikan. But I'm not, in any
10 way, saying that I would not have went and killed
11 somebody -- murdered somebody else (inaudible) because I
12 still felt great anger and resentments against the
13 Turkish government.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: But I'm not clear
15 as to why you would not have proceeded with the murder
16 of Mr. Arikan, just because --
17 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Because we would have assumed
18 that he was being protected by Americans and we did not
19 want to hurt any Americans.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: You did not want
21 to hurt any American?
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Or even Turkish because we
23 didn't want to -- we didn't want to harm anybody else.
24 We didn't want -- we didn't want -- we didn't want to
25 kill anybody more than we had to because we would not
Northern California Court Reporters 76
1 have known who this man is, you know, it could have been
2 his brother, it could have been his brother-in-law or
3 stepson, whatever. We did not want to harm anybody else
4 except Mr. Arikan because he was part of a government
5 that brought this suffering and destruction to the
6 Armenian people. And the state of mind at the time I
7 was in, that I wanted to -- (inaudible) wanted
8 (inaudible) and I wanted to punish that government that
9 I'm not going to let them get away with what they did to
10 the Armenian people in Armenia.
11 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Can you clarify,
12 were you intent on killing that individual because of
13 what he said or was it his position with the Turkish
14 government, or was it both?
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: It's everything.
16 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: So both?
17 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: His position because the
18 government was -- their goal was to destroy Armenian
19 people, to destroy facts of history, to keep all the
20 homes and the properties that they stole from the
21 Armenian people including churches, the bank accounts of
22 their victims. They wanted to keep it all. And for 67
23 years or 80 years -- 70 years that after the genocide
24 they made no attempts whatsoever to make amends with the
25 Armenian people to peacefully solve the existing
Northern California Court Reporters 77
1 problem. And their policy was like, yeah, we butchered
2 your people, we took your own homeland, now go screw
3 yourself. That's what -- and I -- and I didn't -- as a
4 young man, I did not like that and I thought they should
5 man up and apologize and make --
6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: You resented that
7 policy and you despised that Turkish policy; correct?
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Absolutely, yes.
9 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Why do you -- why
10 do you think at age 19 you thought it was -- that you
11 appointed somebody as somebody to represent the Armenian
12 people and take this kind of action? Nineteen is pretty
13 young. Most guys at 19 aren't doing anything close to
14 that. They have other interests. So why were you so
15 caught up in political activity at such a young age?
16 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner, as a young man,
17 as you saw in the records, I had no ambition. I had no
18 ambition for education. I had no ambition. Most guys
19 at that age, was chasing girls. I just -- I was too shy
20 to chase girls, and the story of my Armenian people and
21 the suffering of Armenian people just caught -- they
22 caught my heart and I learned -- and I was and -- you
23 know, I always had that -- I loved -- I loved the
24 Armenian people, you know, because from my childhood on,
25 I'd seen people suffering, you know, whether it was my
Northern California Court Reporters 78
1 mother, my grandmother were always crying and because
2 she witnessed her whole family get butchered during the
3 genocide, and her whole life she never saw justice. And
4 all this -- these resentments, all this anger that
5 all -- that's injustice that the Armenian people
6 suffered during their life, and the fact that Turkish
7 government would never man up and never apologize what
8 they did to the Armenian people like the Germans to the
9 Jews. You know, they didn't tell Jews to go to hell.
10 We did -- we committed the Holocaust, now go to hell.
11 They apologized and they paid billions of dollars in
12 reparations to the Jews, you know. But the Turkish
13 government's policy was screw you, it's over with, and
14 as a young man, Commissioner, I did not have no
15 ambitions. I just -- the story of my people just
16 captured my heart and I felt like that since they're not
17 peacefully solving this problem, then in my mind it
18 would be -- I took it that if peaceful don't work, then
19 violence is what's going to work.
20 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Did you ever try
21 peaceful? Did you ever try peaceful?
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Not, me myself, no. I was
23 just too angry, Commissioner. I was too frustrated
24 and --
25 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Did you ever think
Northern California Court Reporters 79
1 about some type of constructive way to address this
2 situation?
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I have taken part in
4 Armenian, April 24 genocide memorial demonstrations.
5 Yes. I have taken part of that and I have put on
6 stickers on the wall and stuff like that, you know.
7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: I mean back when
8 you were 19.
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes. This is when it
10 happened, yeah, before that. Yes.
11 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Because your goal
12 was to get Turkey to change their policy to admit
13 there's a genocide, pay reparations; correct? That was
14 what you wanted?
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes. Well, that's some of
16 it. Yes.
17 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: All right. So
18 there was no other way for you to do it other than
19 violence back then?
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Well, there was a hundred
21 other ways, Commissioner, but I was too twisted. My
22 mind -- my mind was to angry and I didn't have the life
23 skills to make a sound judgment. I was just -- took my
24 anger and my resentments and I just -- I was being fed
25 by this anger, and I didn't know how -- I didn't console
Northern California Court Reporters 80
1 my anger. Instead of, you know, I didn't go talk to
2 somebody and say, hey man, you know, don't be bothered
3 by this like, you know, normal rational people would do.
4 I was just taking this anger and my crime partner felt
5 the same way. And we just feed off each other and we
6 took this -- you know, since they not want to solve this
7 problem peacefully, then there is no other choice. I --
8 wrongfully thought there was no other choice --
9 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: And that --
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- but --
11 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- that consumed
12 you. It looks like it consumed you, this --
13 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: It consumed me at the time,
14 yes, and I'm very disappointed today at myself. I'm
15 ashamed of myself that I could have went to talk to a
16 hundred people. I could have talked to my mother or
17 somebody -- anybody that, you know, that -- to release
18 this anger and this resentment I felt, this rage I felt
19 inside me. But instead of doing that I resorted to
20 violence. Yes. I am emotional about it, Commissioner,
21 because I'm ashamed of it, you know. There's all these
22 people in here, I'm the only one that committed murder.
23 You guys went through hardships, you know. You guys
24 went through divorces and breaks-up, and financial
25 problem, but you didn't go commit crimes. You had a
Northern California Court Reporters 81
1 level head. You had, you know, you had rational
2 thinking and intelligent to make the right decisions in
3 your life. But when I was 19, I didn't. Instead of
4 finding a way out -- instead of finding a way to release
5 this anger peacefully and logically and humanely, I
6 didn't do that. I felt too much pride to hold this
7 inside of me and feed -- use this anger and this
8 resentment as energy to resort to violence. It was so
9 bad that I even -- that committing a murder wasn't way
10 beyond my head. I was so twisted and I was so messed up
11 in my head, that I didn't -- there was no logic in me
12 left. That I rationalized violence and I am ashamed of
13 it, Commissioner. Yes, because, you know, I destroyed a
14 human being's life. I destroyed his family's life. I
15 put fear in the community. And yes, I am ashamed of it.
16 I am deeply remorseful. I am deeply -- I am very sorry
17 for that.
18 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: We'll talk more
19 about that in a little bit.
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Okay.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: All right. Let
22 me go back to a question that I had earlier when you
23 were talking about planning the crime with Koko. So
24 who's idea was it? I mean the two of you are talking
25 about, I don't know if this -- how your whole
Northern California Court Reporters 82
1 conversation was even triggered. Do you remember the
2 first time you talked about assassinating Mr. Arikan?
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner, if I tell you
4 it's his idea, then if you ask me what did he say, I
5 wouldn't be able to answer. And if I tell you it was my
6 idea, then you ask me what did you say, then, I can't
7 say it was his idea, it was my idea. We were just
8 rolling downhill. You know, we were just -- it was both
9 of our ideas. We both planned it. We knew exactly what
10 we were doing. And we knew we were committing murder.
11 We knew we were murdering a human being and we just --
12 at times he was kind of doubtful, you know, whether we
13 should go with it. Then I would push him, yeah, let's
14 do it. Then a couple -- at the time or two, I would be
15 kind of doubtful whether we should go along with it,
16 then he would -- he would push me. So we were both
17 pushing each other. And we were -- so no it wasn't his
18 idea. No. It was both of our idea -- both of our ideas
19 that we both pushed each other.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. So it was
21 kind of a joint decision. It was just --
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Absolutely.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- a
24 collaboration that came together from both of you --
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
Northern California Court Reporters 83
1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- feeling the
2 same way about the atrocities that you had both
3 witnessed. I assume he came from the same environment
4 as you did?
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. He had -- he had an
6 Armenian family and his family was also survivors of the
7 Armenian Genocide and --
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: All right.
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- you know -- you know, his
10 family is a survivor of the genocide. So we all -- no
11 matter what Armenian you talked to, their grandparents
12 are survivors of the genocide. They all go to the same
13 place.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: So one of the
15 things that you said is that one of the things that
16 really touched you was seeing women and children hurt?
17 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: You said that
19 earlier. You said that in some of your writings and
20 that was one of the triggers for you. But you also just
21 said that you knew Mr. Arikan had a wife and a daughter?
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: So you had to
24 know that they would be devastated --
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Absolutely.
Northern California Court Reporters 84
1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- by his
2 assassination.
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: You're -- absolutely, I did.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: You didn't make
5 that connection at all, that it was okay to harm his
6 wife and his child?
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner, one thing that
8 I was passionate during my childhood that I didn't see
9 women -- I hating seeing women and children suffer. But
10 when I was 18, 19 years old, that my anger was so, so,
11 so overwhelming that I lost my human values, that I had
12 no -- that I let my anger lead me and I did not only
13 think about Mr. Arikan's wife and his daughter, I didn't
14 think about myself. I didn't think about what this
15 would do to the community. I didn't think about my
16 mother. I didn't think about nothing. You know, I was
17 just -- this rage so completely took over my life and
18 there was no -- I just kept making bad decisions after
19 bad decisions. That logic and common sense and
20 compassion was just -- was nonexistent in my life. That
21 I let this great anger and this great sense of injustice
22 that I was feeling that had taken place against my
23 people, was just completely being the fuel of my life.
24 It just led me lead me into this disaster that I led
25 myself and Mr. Arikan's family into that -- you know,
Northern California Court Reporters 85
1 there was no logical thinking, Commissioner. I was
2 just -- I was way too deep into childhood influences. I
3 had a criminal state of mind. I entertained criminal
4 behavior. I supported criminal behavior. And I just
5 did not care about nothing at that time except to punish
6 this man for what he said and what I blamed him for,
7 what he did to my people. But all the problems were
8 with me. All that I was the problem. That I was the
9 one resorting to violence to murder a human being. But
10 I was so blind to the facts of life, I just did not have
11 the life skills to have the logical thinking. And what
12 I -- as I -- during the past years, all I had to do was
13 just go to one person and talk to one person. Tell
14 them, hey man, you know, I'm thinking about this stupid
15 thing, I'm thinking about murdering a man.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Well, you did
17 talk to a person, you just talked to the wrong person
18 who had the same --
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Absolutely.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- idea as you.
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: One hundred percent,
22 Commissioner, and he was going through the same thing I
23 was.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: But so why do you
25 think that you reacted so violently to your anger and
Northern California Court Reporters 86
1 rage ,when I mean there had to be, you know, a countless
2 number of children who witnessed the same type of
3 atrocities in your homeland and in other -- in other
4 war-torn areas and never resorted to assassinating a
5 political figure.
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. Commissioner, as a
7 young man, I was very shy and I did not share my
8 thoughts and my -- and my pain with other people. I
9 just kept it inside of me, you know. I just kept it
10 building inside. I just -- I would never -- I saw that
11 going and telling somebody, hey, I'm going through a
12 hardship, I saw that as a weakness, you know. I just
13 didn't do that. I just bottled everything up for years
14 and years. I was too shy and I had no ambitions in
15 life. I did not say, hey, you know, let me go out with
16 that beautiful girl and fall in love and get married. I
17 just -- I was just too shy to do that. I had no
18 ambitions. I had no interest in becoming a business
19 man, owning anything. And I just -- I just was not --
20 it did not suck me in. That I just -- I just kept
21 making the wrong decisions. To me, the suffering of my
22 people and suffering of -- the destruction of my country
23 just grabbed me, you know. That's the fact. And the --
24 and the -- and the injustices they went -- they went
25 through their whole life was just -- was overwhelming in
Northern California Court Reporters 87
1 my life. And I just bottled this anger up,
2 Commissioner, and I -- and I just kept building it. And
3 the only guy I was talking to was my crime partner which
4 he felt, like you said, he felt the same way. And I
5 just -- all I had to do was go talk to somebody
6 rational, somebody older, somebody who had never been in
7 trouble, somebody who was a smart guy. Tell him hey,
8 man, you know, just peacefully, no matter what they do,
9 no matter what they say, the only ways to go about this
10 is peaceful ways and I was just -- I did not have the
11 life skills to make a logical sound decision, to make --
12 to take the right steps in my life, to, you know, to
13 make something better of me. You know, to become
14 somebody. You know, I didn't have to become a big
15 business man or a writer or a PhD guy, I just -- I just
16 be a normal kid or a normal guy. But I did this -- just
17 the anger was -- I was just sucked into this anger. I
18 followed anger and resentments and rage. (Inaudible)
19 would have been (inaudible) than follow anything decent,
20 and I believe that the peaceful way is the only way that
21 can solve this problem. That it's not my job to go --
22 to resort to violence to solve a problem. I was a high
23 school dropout. And how the hell is it my job to solve
24 this major problem between a nation? But back then,
25 Commissioner, I didn't have the sense to make a logical
Northern California Court Reporters 88
1 decision, you know. There is a lot of great men who hit
2 their wife right in front of their children. Why,
3 because their anger at the time overwhelms them. And
4 that's what happened to me. That my anger just
5 destroyed my humanity and my conscience and my sense of
6 logic. I let my pride and -- I was in denial. I just
7 could not face that this is not the way to go. I would
8 not seek help. I did not ask for help. I did not go to
9 nobody. And I was in denial that this -- that violence
10 was going to solve a problem, when all I did was destroy
11 and destroy and destroy more. And I am -- you said I
12 will get to that later. So I'll --
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: We will.
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- (inaudible).
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: We will shortly.
16 But we've been going at it for a little while. Why
17 don't we take a short recess, just a comfort break.
18 It's 10:57 and we're going to recess for a few minutes.
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Okay.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Thank you.
22 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Off the record.
23 (Off the record.)
24 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: We're back on the
25 record, Commissioner.
Northern California Court Reporters 89
1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: All right. It's
2 11:20. We're back from a short recess. And we were
3 last talking about what made you different than the
4 other youth who may have been similarly impacted or
5 witnessed similar kinds of atrocities not only in your
6 country, but in other parts of the world, you know, what
7 made you different to act out in this way, because very
8 few commit political assassination essentially. And you
9 described -- you frankly described, I think, the kinds
10 of young people that radical groups try to recruit today
11 as terrorists and suicide bombers, you know, same kind
12 of frame of mind. But in any event, I want to move on
13 to the life crime itself. We started to get into it
14 with the background, the backdrop of the firebombing
15 that your brother was involved in about 15 months before
16 the life crime. And then you told us that you already
17 had an association with your crime partner and
18 apparently, there was some kind of a press conference
19 where you were -- I don't know if the right word is
20 trigger or not but --
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- it triggered
23 some conversation with you and Koko about taking this
24 issue into your own hands. And so what happened after
25 that? Tell us about the crime?
Northern California Court Reporters 90
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Oh, what happened
2 (inaudible)? Well, when we heard -- we were already --
3 we had been hearing that Armenians were killing Turkish
4 diplomats in Europe --
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- and we started discussing
7 between us, whether, you know, whether, you know, why
8 are they doing it, why (inaudible)do it. And we kept
9 coming to the same conclusion that the Turkish
10 government was the one that did not commit this
11 genocide, the Turkish was just the ones destroying
12 Armenia and Armenian cemeteries and churches and the
13 Turkish government was the one, they had 67 years to
14 apologize for the one and a half million people they
15 murdered. But instead of doing that, they decided to
16 insult the Armenian people, not to come to -- not to
17 have the consultation with the Armenian people. They
18 chose a path of insulting the Armenian people by calling
19 the survivors of the genocide liars. And we took this
20 very personal because of my grandmother and my
21 grandparents and his grandmother and his grandparents
22 were all survivors of the genocide. And we took this
23 deeply personal that, you know, since they're the one
24 refusing to peacefully solve this problem like a normal
25 government is supposed to do that we blame them to form
Northern California Court Reporters 91
1 our action, that what we were planning to do and that
2 was to resort to violence because since they did not
3 understand peacefully solving. But the problem was with
4 us, that we were the one with the anger issues. We were
5 the one that was rationalizing crime, but at the time we
6 didn't care because we blamed them for what we were
7 about to do and was -- that was to resort to violence
8 and what -- our intention was to only -- not to go kill
9 some children somewhere, plant a bomb somewhere, blow up
10 a bridge somewhere, but our intention was only to attack
11 the Turkish government because we blamed them solely for
12 what was -- what they did and they're the sole -- being
13 the only ones that refused to peacefully solve the
14 problem. So in our state of mind, at the time was that
15 since they're refusing peacefully to solve this problem,
16 that gives us the green light -- green light to resort
17 to violence.
18 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: What result were
19 you hoping for? If this went exactly how you wanted it
20 to go, what result was it you were looking for?
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: You mean the violence, you
22 mean?
23 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: The action you
24 took.
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: The what?
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1 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: The action that you
2 took.
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Oh, we were, the main,
4 Commissioner, was to get our angers out, the main reason
5 was retribution. The main reason was to punish them, to
6 let them know that they're not going to get away with
7 this genocide. That they come -- must come to amends
8 with it. They must make peace with the Armenian people
9 and they must return the lands that they stole from
10 their victims and the -- and the churches and the bank
11 accounts. Because --
12 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: So it was your hope
13 that by your action, that the Turkish would --
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Force them to come to
15 peacefully solve the problem, yes.
16 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Hmm. You wanted
18 them to forcefully peacefully solve a problem that they
19 did not acknowledge?
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. We resorted to
21 violence to force them to peacefully come to terms with
22 what they did and make peace with the Armenian people.
23 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: A little bit --
24 well, not a little bit, a lot of irony there; right?
25 Using violence to get somebody who committed violence to
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1 come to the table?
2 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner, when you are a
3 young man who's full of anger and resentments and pride
4 and denial, that's what happened, Commissioner. That's
5 what I did and I'm not going to tell you anything
6 different. I was stupid. There is no -- there is no
7 rationalizing. That was stupid. I was a coward for
8 what I did. There is -- there is nothing I can say
9 that, can say, okay, that sounds like a good reason.
10 There is no good reason. I murdered a human being.
11 There is no reason, Commissioner. There is -- there is
12 nothing -- I understand all this. Shakespeare can come
13 in here and make sense of what I did. I can't make
14 sense of what I did. But I was so angry that I didn't
15 care about nothing. I didn't care about myself, about
16 him, about his wife, about the community, about nothing.
17 My whole state of mind was being fed by anger and
18 resentments and punish the guy because he's calling your
19 grandmother a liar who suffered her whole life crying
20 that she witnessed her whole family get butchered and
21 trampled by horses after they butchered them. And this
22 guy just gave a press conference calling them a liar.
23 And that's all I -- that's the whole -- my state of
24 mind, Commissioner, is that there is no justification
25 whatsoever. I was stupid. I was wrong. I was in
Northern California Court Reporters 94
1 denial. And I am -- and I'm ashamed of what I did.
2 There is nothing I can say.
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: What were you in
4 denial about? Denial about what?
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Denial that I was going to
6 solve a problem violently. Denial that this was my
7 place to do this. Denial that I can -- I can accomplish
8 something with this. It was everything -- that's what I
9 was in denial on, Commissioner. I was just stupid hat
10 by breaking something, I can solve a problem. This
11 wasn't --
12 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: There have been a
13 lot of bright Armenians and Turks that worked on this
14 problem for a long time and --
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Absolutely.
16 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- (inaudible).
17 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Absolutely, Commissioner.
18 This is -- it's not -- I had -- I had no life skill. I
19 was -- I was -- I was -- I was just a young man that
20 rationalized violence.
21 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Yeah. That a
22 19-year-old with very little formal education is going
23 to (inaudible).
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Absolutely, Commissioner.
25 Absolutely. I was -- I was -- like I -- you know, I was
Northern California Court Reporters 95
1 stupid. I was stupid. It's as simple as that. There
2 is no logical human being can murder somebody and think
3 that they're going to solve a problem.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Not like
5 something good to come from that.
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Absolutely. Absolutely,
7 Commissioner. That's, you know -- that's the state of
8 mind I was in at the time. I was wrong. And there is
9 no doubt about it. There is absolutely not one good
10 thing I can say to justify what I did, not a damn word.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Hmm.
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I was wrong in every way.
13 Mr. Arikan did absolutely nothing to deserve to be
14 murdered, nothing. There is no way, no how, in any way.
15 I was a hundred percent at fault.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. So you
17 have stated though that neither you nor your
18 co-defendant -- or, well, you were not a member of the
19 Justice Commandos of the Armenian Genocide?
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner, if I was a
21 member, Commissioner, I would have walked away. Because
22 I do not like gangs. I do not like -- I did not
23 definitely at the age of 19, if somebody had came in and
24 told me, hey, go shoot, Mr. Arikan, I would tell him,
25 okay, give me that gun, I would have shot him. Because
Northern California Court Reporters 96
1 I did -- there is no way, in any way, anybody was going
2 to tell me to go kill somebody. I would have either
3 shot him right there on site, or tell him, you know
4 what, you go kill him. Don't tell me --
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: You would have
6 told the person telling you to kill -- you would have
7 shot the person --
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I would have.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- telling you?
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah, if somebody had the
11 audacity to force me or to demand on me or ask me in any
12 way to go kill somebody, in other words, something that
13 I didn't want to do, I would have shot him there. But I
14 shot Mr. Arikan because I wanted to shoot him because I
15 was twisted. Because I was mad. Because I -- this was
16 my choice and you have my prison record. I do not like
17 gangs, Commissioner. I do not like shot callers and all
18 these mafias and --
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Well, in your
20 mind then the Justice Commandos were a gang?
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I didn't know. I never heard
22 of the Justice Commandos.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Really?
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: But there was one -- I must
25 put this on. I did -- I had heard that there was
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1 another Armenian gang or --
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Hmm. And what
3 was that gang?
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: There was another Armenian
5 gang that was shooting Turkish --
6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Do you want me to
7 take it off?
8 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: Just give us a second.
9 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Yeah. Okay. Sorry
10 about that.
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. That's okay. I was
12 going to say maybe it's for me.
13 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: No, not yet.
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Well, I'm sorry.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Yes (inaudible).
16 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I don't mean to make light
17 joke. I'm sorry, Commissioner.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: But I had -- I had heard many
20 times of another Armenian assassination or terrorist
21 group that they were carrying out assassination and that
22 was called Armenian Secret Army of Liberation of
23 Armenia. I think they call them ASALA. I had heard of
24 that group. So that's why, in a way, when I read the
25 Justice Commandos, I'm like who the hell is the Justice
Northern California Court Reporters 98
1 Commandos? First of all, I was disappointed that my
2 crime partner had told somebody about it. And then I
3 go, how come I never heard of this group? Every time I
4 had heard of Armenians killing Turkish officials in
5 Europe, it always was ASALA, ASALA, ASALA, ASALA. And I
6 was like, who the hell is the Commandos? But then I
7 felt betrayed in a way by my crime partner because I
8 said he must have told somebody because --
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Right. You've
10 shared that with us before. Now, the ASALA, did you
11 have any affiliation with ASALA?
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Any
14 communication?
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner, not only didn't
16 I have -- I did not like them for a particular reason
17 because every -- sometimes what they had done is they
18 had killed women and children. Sometimes they had left
19 a bomb somewhere or shot a Turkish diplomat when there
20 were other people around and they had killed a few -- a
21 few women and children. That's why --
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: So no affiliation
23 with them?
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. Yeah. I did not --
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: I think you
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1 indicated you had no affiliation with the ARF either; is
2 that right?
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I was -- the AYF is like the
4 junior body of the ARF.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Oh.
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: So I was a AYF member, but
7 the -- it's like, you know, you graduate from college
8 you go to -- I mean high school, then you go to college.
9 The AYF is a -- is the junior branch of the ARF.
10 They're like the youth group. You know, from -- it
11 starts from like five years old to like 21 years old.
12 And then if you want to join ARF, then you can go join
13 ARF. Yeah.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: When you turn a
15 certain age?
16 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Twenty-one, I believe. I
17 think it's 21.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: And what do they
19 do? What do they do? What do they represent?
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Well, I've never been to
21 their meetings. I don't know. But I know they're not a
22 criminal gang because Koko didn't like them either.
23 Koko kept complaining about the ARF. And when I asked
24 him like, why are you a member if you don't want to be,
25 because all they talk about -- go do up uphill 24
Northern California Court Reporters 100
1 demonstrations and once a year they give a party to all
2 the families gathered to --
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Oh, boy. Talk
4 about. Somebody is trying to reach us here. That's
5 an --
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: This has never happened
7 before?
8 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: No.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: It's never
10 happened to me either. This is my work cell phone. You
11 know what, I think it's the --
12 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: You want to take
13 it?
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: I think it's the
15 attorney for the next hearing.
16 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Do you need to go
17 off the record?
18 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY INGALLS: Oh, Provadia
19 (phonetic)?
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Right. That's
21 who that is. So do you have a cell phone for -- do you
22 have a number -- well you have a number for the attorney
23 for the next hearing? She said she'd call in at 11:30.
24 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: What?
25 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Oh, I have her
Northern California Court Reporters 101
1 number here.
2 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: You said Laura Kelley?
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Yes,
4 Laura Kelley.
5 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Yeah, we got the number.
6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: I got it. Is that
7 it?
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Yeah. Why don't
9 you give her call and just let her know what the status
10 of this --
11 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- hearing is and
13 it's going to be a while. I apologize.
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. So go
16 ahead, I'm sorry. You had -- you had no affiliation
17 then with the ARF and you were too young to join anyway
18 but you were part of their junior --
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: AYF, yes (inaudible).
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- league group
21 basically, your younger --
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Oh, no, I think he knows more
23 about that then I do but --
24 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: (Inaudible) you
25 though.
Northern California Court Reporters 102
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: And I get it. But the point
2 I was -- I think I was stopped at Koko and the ARF.
3 He --
4 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: You said they
5 weren't militant enough for Koko.
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Oh, Koko --
7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Koko didn't like
8 it.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Right.
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Oh, yeah. Yeah,
11 Commissioner. He told me that the only thing the ARF
12 was concerned about waiting for April 24th to come
13 around, so they organized a protest --
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: An annual
15 protest?
16 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: And then once a year they
17 gave a party to get the families together. And that was
18 the whole -- their calendar revolved around those two
19 things.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: And --
22 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: For purpose of a
23 clear record, can you tell us the significance of April
24 24th?
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: April 24th is the day the
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1 Turkish -- the young Turks known as Talaat, Enver, and
2 Djemal Pasha who are the three main culprits who decided
3 and ordered the mass -- the genocide of the Armenian
4 people.
5 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: That's the --
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: So the --
7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- anniversary date
8 of mass --
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- that's the anniversary
10 date. Yes.
11 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Thank you.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. All right.
13 Well, we kind of went a little bit -- you actually kind
14 of went into the next question that I had, which really
15 has more to do with why you committed the crime. I was
16 more interested in having you tell us the -- basically
17 just walk us through the facts in the crime. What
18 happened, what you did, what your partner did, and --
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: You mean the crime itself?
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: The actual crime.
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Okay. Once we decided --
22 once we learned about the press conference Mr. Arikan
23 had given, by this time, we were already committed that
24 we were going to --- would kill a Turkish diplomat.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
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1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: That we were going to resort
2 to violence because at that time we felt that there was
3 no other options for us left. Wrongfully, we thought
4 that. So when Koko came and told me, Hey, do you know,
5 the Los Angeles Turkish Consul just gave some speech
6 somewhere that he calling -- he said the Armenian people
7 are liars, that there was no genocide, that right there
8 completely took our focus. We were thinking about going
9 to Europe to commit the (inaudible) -- to commit the
10 murder.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: So did you
12 actually hear that press conference?
13 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No. No. No. No.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: You didn't even
15 hear it?
16 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No. It was in -- it was in
17 a -- he had a little --
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: In a newspaper?
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- paper. Yes.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. So you
21 read -- did you read that newspaper?
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. Yeah. I believe that.
23 He might have read it to me, but I think I read it that
24 Mr. Arikan basically said that Armenians were liars,
25 there was no genocide. That's what I remember from it.
Northern California Court Reporters 105
1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: So I mean, do you
2 know that for a fact, that he actually said that? Do
3 you have -- did you have any corroboration of that?
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Just the newspaper and the
5 fact that he told me that. That's --
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: So I mean, it's
7 one thing -- it's secondhand. If Koko tells you that,
8 that's one thing. If you --
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner?
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- actually saw
11 it in writing or heard the press conference --
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Hmm.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- on the radio
14 or saw it on television --
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Right.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- that's like
17 you saw it --
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. I get --
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- firsthand.
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. I got your point,
21 Commissioner. But at this time, I didn't care if it was
22 secondhand, the 12th hand, or the 95th hand. I didn't
23 care.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: It didn't matter.
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: It didn't matter. Because I
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1 was --
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: You were just
3 looking for some reason?
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Exactly. I had --
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I had this anger and I
7 rationalized violence to punish this government for what
8 they did. And I didn't care where that information came
9 from, but I did believe -- I must say that I did believe
10 that it was true.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: That he did -- he did say
13 that. I did believe that. I might have be -- might
14 have been wrong, but I did believe it. So when you --
15 so our focus, we were thinking about going to Europe to
16 kill a Turkish diplomat there. We were just --
17 basically just talking about this.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: We haven't decided what
20 country. We had no idea who we would go after, none of
21 this. We were just talking about this. And when Koko
22 brought this article and saying, you know, Mr. Arikan
23 said this. So that completely took our attention from
24 anything else and focused on him.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
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1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: It was like -- we even
2 talked -- said to each other, like, wow, we're thinking
3 about Europe when we got this guy over here --
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- doing exactly the same
6 thing as the ones over there. And this guy just
7 insulted our grandmothers and our people, calling them
8 liars instead of manning up and saying what they did to
9 the Armenian people was wrong.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: So that completely took our
12 focus to him. We decided to murder Mr. Arikan instead
13 of going somewhere else.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: So this was in like
16 mid-December, '81, somewhere around there.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: So the other question was now
19 we don't know where he lives. We don't know how to find
20 him. So a couple of weeks went by after -- went by and
21 Koko one day came and told me that Mr. Arikan was
22 driving on Wilshire and Sunset, I think. He was
23 crossing that intersection. But we didn't know how far
24 he was driving to get to that point, you know. We don't
25 know if it was for driving ten minutes or 50 minutes to
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1 get to that point. And so we didn't know what to do.
2 So we decided, since we don't know where he's coming
3 from at that intersection, Wilshire and Sunset, it
4 was -- it was a major, major boulevard. I mean it
5 was -- just a lot of traffic in that street corner. And
6 we couldn't -- we didn't -- we thought we can't kill the
7 guy there because there's just too much going on in that
8 corner. So we decided, well, let's see where he's
9 coming from. So we went -- we drove there and we got to
10 Sunset and Wilshire, and we knew he was -- he told me
11 that he's coming from this direction. Well, I don't
12 know whether East, West, North, South, I don't know. So
13 we went to the direction he was coming from and the
14 first street -- the red light intersection that came was
15 Comstock and Wilshire. And so I stood on that corner
16 while my crime partner Koko went further down. I
17 actually walked with him to that next one --
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- and there was a far bigger
20 boulevard there. I don't know what it's called with
21 Sunset and some major boulevard going across it. So
22 Koko stood there. I walk back to Comstock and Sunset --
23 I mean Comstock and Wilshire, I'm sorry.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: So I stood there waiting for
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1 Mr. Arikan to come and I waited, I don't know 15, 20
2 minutes, 25 minutes, and back then I had no patience to
3 speak of whatsoever. And I was just about to say, you
4 know what, the hell with this, man. I was going to
5 leave. And I just decided, well, I'll wait one more
6 minute, you know. And so I waited another minute and
7 that's when I saw Mr. Kamel -- Mr. Arikan come down.
8 The road was like kind of got a little hill to it. He
9 was coming down the hill and the newspaper I believe
10 also had the picture of Mr. Arikan so I knew that it was
11 him, you know, his face. So I immediately --
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: You said you
13 didn't know if you had seen the article. You said you
14 did -- now you're saying you did see a picture.
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No, I said I did see the
16 article. I said I didn't know -- no, I said I did
17 see --
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: About the press
19 conference I'm referring to.
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No. No. Well, yeah, the one
21 Koko brought up to me, I did see.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah, I'm sorry. I --
24 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: I heard him say
25 that.
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1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Oh, I'm sorry.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: I thought you
3 were unclear if you --
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I thought I was talking --
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- saw it
6 firsthand or didn't see it.
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No. No. No. I said it
8 wouldn't have mattered if --
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: He read it to you
10 or --
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No. I did read it. He did
12 brought it and I was saying that it didn't matter what
13 hand it came, the 50th, in a second hand or 50th.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Right.
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: It didn't matter to me --
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Correct.
17 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- where it came from because
18 I was --
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. But any
20 way, so you had seen a picture, you knew what he looked
21 like.
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. Yeah. So I saw
23 Mr. Arikan coming down the road because there's a little
24 hill it comes down.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
Northern California Court Reporters 111
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Right there was a hill there
2 and he drove by and I immediately saw his face and he
3 was like 30 feet away, 20 feet away, I immediately
4 recognized him. And I might have even seen his car
5 license and it says something -- it didn't have the
6 normal license plate on there.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: (Inaudible).
8 Yeah.
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: So I'm not a hundred percent
10 about that but my eyes might have saw that. So as soon
11 (inaudible) Mr. Arikan went by me and turned to the
12 right and left, so I walked back the other way and told
13 my crime partner, he saw me coming and I smiled and he
14 said -- when I smiled, he said he came, didn't he? I
15 said, yeah, I saw him. He drove right by me. So that's
16 how we found Mr. Arikan. So that that day -- that day,
17 I still don't remember whether it was the very -- the
18 next day or one day after --
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- we decided to carry out
21 the murder right there on the street corner because it
22 was narrow and there was not nearly as many people that
23 Wilshire and Sunset had. So we decided to murder him
24 right there.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. So what
Northern California Court Reporters 112
1 happened?
2 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: So the next thing was -- oh,
3 before this, we had talked about, you know, with the
4 guns and Koko told me don't worry about the guns. And
5 when the day of the assassination, he bought the guns
6 and he had a .9-mm and a .45 and he wanted to -- he
7 wanted to use the .9-mm and I never shot a .45 before,
8 you know. Any gun I shot was either a .9-mm or the
9 shotgun.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: So I took the -- reluctantly,
12 I took the .45, you know.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I didn't even tell him I had
15 never shot a .45, you know, this might not be a good
16 idea.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: So I took it then. And I
19 said -- I said, how much did you pay for it? He said,
20 don't worry about it. I said, no, let me -- I don't
21 want you to pay for this whole thing. Let me help you
22 pay for it. He said, don't worry about it. So I said,
23 all right. So the next morning, I don't remember
24 whether it was he called me or I called him, you know,
25 like eight o'clock in the morning, I think, or
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1 something. Then I went over there to pick him up. I
2 picked him up and we had the guns already. So we went
3 down to Hollywood area. That's where this city is
4 close.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: And Koko was nervous and I
7 was nervous, you know. We were both very nervous and
8 Koko he did drink, you know. Casually, he was a -- he
9 did drink alcohol. He said, let's stop by this liquor
10 store. And it was -- I remembered because it was right
11 next to the -- like, as I come out the car in the
12 parking lot, I noticed to my left I saw the Capitol
13 building there, that Records Capitol building -- that
14 famous Hollywood building. I remember seeing that
15 building. So were like a block or two away from there.
16 So he went in -- we went in and he bought a small bottle
17 of brandy --
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- and as he was buying this
20 I saw a small bottle like whatever liquor it was, and I
21 thought the bottle was very cute, so I bought that
22 myself.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: So just for the
24 record, you're --
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Just --
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- holding up --
2 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- like three, four inch --
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- like two to
4 three-inch -- three or four-inch --
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- bottle.
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. I'm sorry.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: (Inaudible) on
9 an --
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: So --
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- airplane
12 bottle.
13 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. So I bought that and
14 we went inside the car and he opened the thing and he
15 took a sip. And he said, do you want a sip? I said, I
16 don't drink. He said take a sip. So I put the bottle,
17 it barely touched my lips and I almost threw up because
18 I didn't like the taste. I don't like alcohol. I had
19 had a couple of beers in my life, but nothing like this.
20 I just didn't like it and I gave it back to him. And I
21 think he might have taken another sip, a small sip. And
22 so then, he put the bottle in the -- in the car. So we
23 went to the corner -- street corner of Comstock and
24 Wilshire. And I parked my car like a block away from
25 that intersection where Mr. Arikan was coming down from,
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1 and he took one side -- I stood on one street corner --
2 would be the side which Mr. Arikan would be driving and
3 he went across the other side of the street. And we
4 waited and waited what seemed like an hour back then,
5 you know. And I was getting impatient and I saw he was
6 getting impatient. So once in a while, he was kind of
7 clowning and making faces at me, and I was doing that to
8 him too, to calm -- because we knew we were nervous. We
9 would kind of calm each other down a little bit, you
10 know.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: And as the, you know, after
13 about 15 minutes I think had passed, then I saw
14 Mr. Arikan come down the street, driving down the street
15 and this is, you know -- then I signaled to him, like
16 you know, he's here. Then I turned around, which would
17 be my back toward Mr. Arikan's car, and I had the gun
18 right here in my front side --
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- and I pulled the gun out
21 so he won't see it. Then when Mr. Arikan was about
22 20-feet away, I'm just guessing, I don't know exactly
23 how many --
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: And driving --
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: It was it like --
Northern California Court Reporters 116
1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Was he driving --
2 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- 20 --
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- in the lane
4 closest to the --
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- sidewalk?
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: It was -- it was two lane.
8 There was the lane, however, he was on my side and --
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: So he was about, I would say
11 two or -- three or four cars away from the point I was
12 standing at.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: And that's when I took the
15 gun and I shot four times, I believe, pointing at
16 Mr. Arikan.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: And while I was shooting,
19 Mr. Arikan hit the brake very hard. I mean he just --
20 you could hear the tires, you know, stop --
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Screech?
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: The screeching sound of the
23 tires.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: And as this was happening, my
Northern California Court Reporters 117
1 crime partner ran halfway to the other side of the
2 middle of the road. He was almost middle of the road
3 when he started shooting Mr. Arikan right there. He was
4 like two feet away or three feet away. And then as he
5 was doing this --
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: So he was on the
7 passenger --
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: He was --
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: He was --
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No, he was --
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- on the
12 driver's side.
13 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- on the driver's side.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: I'm sorry, the
15 driver's side.
16 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: And he was -- as he was
19 shooting the gun, then I was like three cars away from
20 Mr. Arikan, so I ran toward the car myself and the car
21 wasn't moving. He had his foot on the pedal, on the
22 brake I guess still. As Koko was shooting from -- where
23 he was sitting -- Mr. Arikan was sitting, I started
24 shooting from the passenger side. And I remember one of
25 the first bullet I shot went right to where the corner
Northern California Court Reporters 118
1 of the door and the window is and it didn't penetrate,
2 it did not break the window. So I shot again that
3 penetrated the window. Then I believe I shot once or
4 two more. And I remember one shot, the last shot I
5 think that I shot, hit Mr. Arikan somewhere around the
6 knee area I believe. Then as -- then I took off running
7 away.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Now, were you at
9 this time right next to the vehicle? How far were you?
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I was right next to the
11 vehicle, right on the passenger side.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: On the side -- on
13 the sidewalk? Were you on the sidewalk?
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No. No. I was on the
15 street. I was on the street already.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: On the street?
17 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: On the traffic -- in traffic
18 already.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: And --
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Where there
22 other -- obviously there was other cars.
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: This was 9:45 in
25 the morning.
Northern California Court Reporters 119
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: It was busy --
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes, it was.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Wilshire is
5 always busy but --
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I didn't (inaudible) --
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: You didn't notice
8 the other cars?
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I just -- I was blanked out.
10 I was just --
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I mean, I knew exactly what I
13 was doing but I was not seeing anything around me
14 anymore.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Sir, are you
16 saying that you shot four -- about four times before he
17 hit the brakes? That's what you said, you shot --
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I shot --
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- four times and
20 then he hit the brakes.
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Then I -- no. I think as
22 soon as I -- when I pulled the gun, I stepped into
23 the -- I'm sorry, when I pulled the gun, I stepped into
24 the street.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
Northern California Court Reporters 120
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Like two steps into the
2 street.
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: And Mr. Arikan thought I was
5 crossing the street, I think.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: When he saw the gun, he hit
8 the brake very hard. And that's when I started shooting
9 I think four times.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Oh, so you four
11 times total?
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Before --
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Not four times
14 before and then four times --
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No. I shot him four times
16 before. When I saw the car, like he was right there, I
17 shot like from here four times into the car.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Then I ran to the side of the
20 passenger side because my side of the street --
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- was the passenger side.
23 Meanwhile, Koko crossed the street halfway where
24 Mr. Arikan was sitting on the driver's side. So once I
25 got to the passenger side, I shot like three or four
Northern California Court Reporters 121
1 more times.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. So my
3 first impression was accurate, you shot about four
4 times, then he hit the brakes. So when you shot the
5 first -- you said you shot about four times.
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes. Yes.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: You know, you got
8 out on the street, he think -- he slows down because he
9 thinks you're crossing the street --
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- and you --
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Then I pulled the gun.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: You pull the gun.
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Then he hit the brake hard as
15 he could.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: And you fired
17 four shots?
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: And I believe --
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I mean, I don't know he saw,
21 but I believe when he saw the gun, that's when he really
22 hit the brakes, then I shot four times from --
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Where did you
24 shoot? What were you shooting at?
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I was trying to kill
Northern California Court Reporters 122
1 Mr. Arikan.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: But were you
3 shooting the windshield, the side, or --
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I was shooting through the
5 windshield where he was sitting, yes.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. And did
7 any of those penetrate? Any of those four shots --
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner, I can one
9 hundred percent say that I saw two bullets hit the hood
10 of the car, where the engine is at. But I don't -- none
11 of the bullets when I was running toward the car I did
12 not see any bullets that had penetrated the window.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I could be wrong, but I
15 didn't see none.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. And
17 meanwhile your partner is starting to approach from --
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: From the side.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- across the
20 street from --
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- approach the
23 passenger, I'm sorry, I keep saying passenger, the
24 driver's side and --
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
Northern California Court Reporters 123
1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- after the car
2 stopped, then you fired another three shots or so.
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: One of which you
5 know penetrated and hit the victim in --
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Like the knee area, I think.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- the knee area?
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: How many, if you
10 know, did Koko -- how many shots did he fire?
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner, I'm guessing
12 but I want to say anywhere six to eight times maybe.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. Did you
14 empty your gun?
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I believe the .45 I was
16 carrying, Commissioner, I think it held ten bullets or
17 maybe 12, I'm not sure.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I believe I shot eight times.
20 So I think there was a couple of bullets in it.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. And what
22 did you do after? Obviously he is stopped on the road
23 and then you flee.
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: The two of you --
Northern California Court Reporters 124
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- fled; correct?
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: You were seen by
5 witnesses who wrote down your --
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- driver's
8 license?
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: And then you went
11 home? You were in your vehicle and you drove -- where
12 did you go after that?
13 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: We went -- we went back to
14 Pasadena and there was -- we were -- we were, you know,
15 excited. We were like -- we were like in a way we
16 couldn't believe we actually did this, and at the same
17 time we were happy that we had done it. That we got
18 him, you know. That's how twisted our mind was back
19 then. So we kept talking about it, you know, how did
20 you feel and this and that and that. We kept asking
21 each other questions, and we -- I think I made a
22 suggestion I think that we used to go to this In-N-Out
23 Burger place in Pasadena on Walnut Villa Street --
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- whatever it was. And we
Northern California Court Reporters 125
1 used to keep buying burgers there because we liked the
2 burgers that they made.
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. Went to
4 In-N-Out.
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: So we went there, yeah, not
6 to eat, we just went there to park the car.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: To park the car.
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: And we talked about it for a
9 few minutes. Then we went -- we said, we drove back to
10 this Armenian restaurant, I mean a supermarket called
11 Good Foods on --
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
13 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- Hill and -- at the corner
14 of Hill and Washington. We went there because we were
15 thinking, you know, if the guy that was writing my --
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: License plate.
17 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- license plate down, you
18 know, if he -- if he got the whole thing down, maybe
19 it's better we go to put the -- you know, be seen by
20 other people, you know. So they can see us that were in
21 Pasadena, you know.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: So we went there and I think
24 there was a bank in that corner too. I think I went
25 into the bank to withdraw one hundred dollars or maybe
Northern California Court Reporters 126
1 less, I don't know.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: And then I left. Then I --
4 then we went and drove Koko home. He lived like a mile
5 from that -- from that area. I took him home. Then I
6 went home myself and when I got home, my younger brother
7 was home and I had a green ski vest -- ski vest, you
8 know, and he said, hey, can I wear that jacket and I
9 told him I don't care, go ahead. And he wore the jacket
10 then and I went to sleep because I had to go to work a
11 couple of hours later.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: So your younger
13 brother, he was not the one that did the firebombing.
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Oh, no. No.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Correct?
16 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: How much older
18 was your brother?
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: My older -- the one that
20 did -- he was two years older than me.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. All right.
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Right.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: But he was not
24 the -- was not oldest; right?
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No. My oldest was six years
Northern California Court Reporters 127
1 older than him.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. All right.
3 Okay. So then you got arrested later, the same day?
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. When I had to go to
5 work, I don't know, two o'clock or three o'clock,
6 whatever it was, so I got up and got in my car. And as
7 soon as I turned the corner I was -- my home was on, and
8 there was like three or four cops car behind me with
9 their sirens on. And I didn't know that --
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: So I pulled over like a block
12 away and they arrested me.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: All right. So
14 when you and Koko were -- left the crime scene, you said
15 you were excited and you were happy and you kept talking
16 about it, and one of the questions you asked each other
17 was how did you feel. So how did you feel?
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Me, myself, I felt like I'm
19 not telling you -- I'm being truthful, I felt great
20 relief because I felt like, you know, these people did
21 this to us, now they know what it's like to, you know --
22 to bleed, you know. But now, you know, they had -- they
23 killed one and a half million of us, they have no
24 remorse, and I told them now they know what's it's --
25 they're getting a taste of their own medicine. That's
Northern California Court Reporters 128
1 what -- that's what I felt.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. And how do
3 you feel about it today?
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Absolutely not.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: So how do you
6 feel about it today?
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Well, I'm deeply ashamed of
8 what I -- what I did, Commissioner. That I'm deeply
9 ashamed that, you know, I always prided myself being a
10 guy doing what I wanted to do and not let other things
11 influence me, and that's exactly what I did, you know,
12 at this case. I let outside factors influence what I
13 was going to do and I'm deeply ashamed of that. And I'm
14 especially deeply ashamed that I killed a human being,
15 and at the time my mind was so twisted that I
16 rationalized violence, that I had -- thought it was
17 violence and murdering a human being is okay because of
18 what he said, and it's never okay. There is nothing
19 anybody can say that would justify him being murdered,
20 absolutely nothing. But at the time, I didn't get that.
21 And today I'm deeply ashamed. I've been deeply ashamed
22 for years. And one of the hardest thing I did in my
23 life was way back in 2002 --
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: So let me
25 clarify. You are deeply ashamed you said for years or
Northern California Court Reporters 129
1 did you mean four years?
2 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No. No. For years, for a
3 long time.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: For years?
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. So
7 since --
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I'm sorry.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- when
10 approximately? When would you say?
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: It started, Commissioner, way
12 back in the late '80s, mid '80s, when I first started my
13 time here, then I see people getting stabbed over a shot
14 of heroin, people getting stabbed for a cigarette or
15 two.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
17 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: And I kept thinking, why
18 these guys killing each other for nothing? Then I began
19 to realize, well, I killed a human being, too, what did
20 I kill him for? And I begun to realize that what I
21 killed him for was a political reason and there is no --
22 it didn't matter. Murder is murder. Whether they're
23 killing for a shot of heroin or for doing political
24 differences.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
Northern California Court Reporters 130
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: It's just murder is murder.
2 I didn't get that when I was young. But then I started
3 discovering conscience when, Commissioner, that I
4 started growing up and learning that violence is never
5 justified. That violence can never be rationalized.
6 And I started seeing myself that what I did was wrong,
7 what I did was inhumane and inexcusable. Then I started
8 looking deeper, that what led me to do that and that
9 those childhood influences that I grew up hearing all
10 the suffering and stuff that I didn't know to
11 (inaudible), that I carried these terrible stories and
12 these terrible feelings that I had, instead of talking
13 about it, releasing it, I just kept building, building.
14 I kept bottling it up inside of me to a point where I
15 (inaudible) committing a murder was okay. And I had
16 begun to feel deeply ashamed of what I did because there
17 is no excuse. I didn't care if Mr. Arikan whatever he's
18 saying, whatever he do, if he gave a press conference
19 right in front of my house saying the Armenians are
20 liars, that doesn't give me a reason to murder him. He
21 has a right too for his political opinion. He had to --
22 he has a right to lobby against the Armenian Genocide or
23 whatever other policies; it's his right, he's a human
24 being. But at the time, I didn't see this. I was so
25 angry and I was so resentful that I was almost blinded
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1 to my own anger, and I'm deeply ashamed of that.
2 Mr. Arikan or nobody else ever deserves to be killed for
3 their -- for their political view or because of a job
4 they're doing; they have to do whatever job they are
5 doing. So I am very remorseful. I am very sorry for
6 what I did. Not only did I kill a human being, I also
7 almost killed their own family in a sense that they lost
8 their husband. They lost their daughter (sic), and to
9 this day they suffer. They're still suffering.
10 Mr. Arikan didn't have a chance to say goodbye to their
11 family. They didn't -- they didn't have a -- to go to a
12 vigil, none of this. It's just -- it's just, I murdered
13 a man on a street corner and his wife and his daughter
14 have suffered to this day because of what I did. And
15 I'm deeply ashamed of it because all -- I prided my
16 whole life as a young man that I will always protect
17 women and children, I always defend them. And junior --
18 when I was young, when I see girls being bullied, weak
19 people, skinny kids being bullied, I always stood up for
20 them and a couple times I got my ass whopped -- kicked
21 because of it, and I prided myself. I begun seeing,
22 Commissioner, that anger and resentment and retribution,
23 and all this does not -- there's no -- nothing good
24 comes out of it. There is no fruit comes out of it.
25 It's only bad and I took this terrible -- this situation
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1 that the Armenian people and the Turkish people were in,
2 no matter what happened, instead of helping it, I made
3 it worse by resorting to violence --
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- and I am deeply ashamed of
6 it. I am very, very sorry for what I did to Mr. Arikan.
7 I am deeply ashamed. I am sorry for what I did to his
8 wife and his daughter. I am deeply ashamed and sorry
9 for -- to what I did to the community. I put a lot of
10 fear into the community and I am very sorry what the
11 witnesses had to witness. They saw a man being murdered
12 and they had to live the rest of their life for because
13 of what I did. I destroyed their life. I gave them --
14 I put trauma in their life. I am very sorry about that.
15 And I am so very sorry about the community and the jury,
16 and the DA, and the judge because I put them through
17 trauma, too. I was a coward. I should have just stood
18 up and said, yes, I did this and this is why I did it,
19 and I'm wrong and I'm sorry. But I didn't. For months
20 and months, the jury had to sit through there.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: For months and months, the
23 judge had to sit through there. And this is a judge
24 that I think he even, after all these years, you know,
25 he wrote a letter asking this Panel, that despite he
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1 knew what I did to committing murder, and he heard
2 that -- he sat there and hearing this for a year -- for
3 months and months, despite that, this man found the --
4 found the love and the compassion for me, he asked this
5 Panel to give me a parole date today. And that to me is
6 deeply moving, you know, because, you know, this man
7 didn't write to you asking you not to give me a date, he
8 asked you -- he's asking, you know, to give me a date.
9 And I see the humanity of that in his -- in his being,
10 you know. And I'm deeply moved by that because I did
11 nothing good for this man. And he found the humanity
12 and the kindness in him to write a letter in support of
13 me. So I am -- I am very sorry, Commissioner, to say
14 that there is absolutely nothing that I can say or do
15 that could justify what I did. But I am determined
16 today, the rest of my life, that I'm going to do
17 everything to make amends, to honor Mr. Arikan, to make
18 peace, and the topic has came up in the last parole
19 hearing and that's how stupid I was, how wrong I was in
20 what I did. I believe the last -- I'm happy to say the
21 last violent act that took place against a Turkish
22 official was way back in 1983. And I am very glad, I'm
23 really proud of this new generation, that this new
24 generation sees that violence is not going to accomplish
25 nothing. And many of the kids I knew outside, they were
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1 just kids, now they're lawyers and they're teachers and
2 they're history professors, and they all got their
3 family and they had enough sense to use their -- to go
4 to school and to get a job and get a girlfriend and get
5 married and have kids. And they did -- a lot of them
6 are my age and they got family. I ain't got nothing. I
7 don't have no home. I don't have no wife, no kids. I
8 have nothing. Only one when you look up my name, it's
9 going to say murderer right there, because that's --
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Didn't you have a
11 have a fiancée? Don't you have a fiancée?
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. I have a girlfriend.
13 She's in Armenia. We're not -- I mean, I want to marry
14 her but we have not officially been --
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Engaged.
16 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- engaged, yes.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. So you
18 said you've -- you want to make amends in honor of the
19 victim. So what have you done to make amends?
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner, I think the --
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: But you know,
22 don't answer that question yet. Let me go back, because
23 I'm not sure I got the answer to my question that
24 triggered all of that testimony and the question was,
25 when did this shame develop? You said that you were
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1 ashamed and I asked you well since when? When did --
2 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: In the '80s.
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- it start?
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: In the '80s, like I would say
5 late '80s I started coming to terms that what I did was
6 wrong.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Late '80s? You
8 know what, I did write that down. It just wasn't --
9 didn't have a specific year, late '80s. Okay. And this
10 is after you've been in prison a few years; right?
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. So then go
13 ahead and answer the question. What have you done to
14 make amends?
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner, I believe that
16 the first amend -- the most important amends is my
17 mentality, my state of mind to understand that what I
18 did was wrong. That violence will never resort (sic)
19 any problem -- solve any problem, I'm sorry. That's
20 the -- then I started changing myself. I did school and
21 work, and I have changed my behavior in prison, that
22 instead of getting write-ups, to start doing something
23 beneficial. But unfortunately, I was in Level IV
24 prisons. In Level IV prisons, there is -- there is not
25 a single self-help group in Level IV prisons. All there
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1 is in Level IV prisons is who's going to stab who, what
2 the riot is going to jump off, and watch your back and
3 something might happen. That's the only thing we ever
4 hear in Level IV prison. And I did my first 22 years of
5 my prison life, I did them in Level IV prison, here in
6 San Quentin and New Folsom and Tehachapi and Lancaster.
7 Which --
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Level IV prisons
9 have libraries with a lot of books, self-help books.
10 There's --
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner --
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- correspondence
13 courses that you can --
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner?
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- participate
16 in.
17 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner, I'm allergic to
18 books, Commissioner. I'm --
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: You're allergic
20 to books?
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I'm sorry. I'm not going to
22 make excuses, Commissioners.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Why didn't --
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Studying --
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: I'm just saying,
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1 if there's a will, there's a way.
2 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: There was no will.
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Regard --
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: There was no will.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Yes, I think --
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: There was no will to -- as
7 far as education was concerned, there was no will. But
8 there was a will to improve myself. As far as being
9 violent in prison, even though I think I may have one or
10 two fights after the fact. And what's surprising me,
11 that I did get my GED, which still shocks me to this day
12 because, you know, I don't know -- actually, I can't
13 believe I actually did that.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Did you get help
15 with your GED?
16 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Well, I'm sure somebody
17 helped me, yeah. I'm sure I asked for some help, but no
18 I did not cheat, if that's what you mean.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Well, that
20 wasn't -- that was going to be my second question. My
21 first question was did you get any help --
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I answered two questions with
23 one.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. If you got
25 any help, you know, preparing for the GED.
Northern California Court Reporters 138
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Oh yeah, absolutely. I did
2 prepare for it, absolutely. I did study, but a GED is
3 not like getting a high school diploma, it's much easier
4 and I think it wasn't --
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Quicker. I don't
6 know if it's easier, but it's definitely quicker.
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. Just to me it was like
8 a matter of a couple of months I think and it was over
9 with.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm. Okay.
11 So you said that in response to my question about making
12 amends, you said that your mentality changed and you
13 also changed yourself, going to school, working.
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Oh, yeah. I'm sorry, I
15 wasn't done. I got distracted. I'm sorry. I talk too
16 much. That's why the psych got so many things wrong
17 because I talk so much, I'm sorry. So besides that
18 Commissioner, I also started -- I started the last few
19 years, I have started making donations a little bit and
20 taking part in breast cancer walks and making donation
21 to Kit Kat, to homeless children out there in San
22 Francisco and the biggest one, I'm sorry I didn't get to
23 it to say the biggest one for me was in 2002, standing
24 in court and apologizing for my crime. And when Mark
25 was my attorney back then and that was -- that was a
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1 life changing experience for me right there. Because
2 that -- because before that, Commissioner, it would have
3 been very hard for me to apologize for what I did
4 because for years after this crime, I would not still
5 apologize for what I did. I would have -- if you asked
6 me about it -- I would tell them, they don't apologize
7 for killing one and a half million of my people, why you
8 want me to apologize for what I did. You know, that
9 would have been my answer. But the 2002 thing to
10 apologize to the judge and then recommit myself never to
11 resort to violence again, that was -- to me was the
12 reality that hit me, that was my life changing, turn
13 around. And then I'm -- and that's that -- that's when
14 begun, when I -- when I went from -- when I came back to
15 Lancaster there was an Honor program, which is unheard
16 of in Level IV prisons. It's the first program ever in
17 prison.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: I'm aware of --
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: So I immediately --
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- the program.
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. I immediately joined
22 the Honor program -- yard program, and I had to sign a
23 paper that I will not be part of a gang, I will not --
24 which, at the time, Commissioner, I know you guys can't
25 sense that here, but at the time, a lot of the convicts
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1 were calling people -- everyone who went to Honor yard,
2 punks and I'm sorry bitches and stuff because they saw
3 us as coward for going to that yard.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: But I didn't care. I
6 don't -- I didn't care what other people think because I
7 wanted to become a better person. Then when I got to
8 Honor yard, I believe it was 2001, they started a new
9 program, another program that I never heard of. That
10 was called CROP, Convict Reaching Out to People. So I
11 immediately signed up and waited for my turn, and I was
12 really honored and joyful that I became a part of it
13 because it was very hard to get into, because it was the
14 only self-group on that whole prison -- on that yard.
15 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: We're talking about
16 making amends right now, if that's what you're talking
17 about.
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
19 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: So this letter that
20 you wrote in 2012 to, and hopefully I don't mispronounce
21 it, Hay Zinvar -- or Zinvor.
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Oh, Hay Zinvor. Yes.
23 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: (Inaudible)
24 Armenian Solider?
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
Northern California Court Reporters 141
1 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: So was that letter
2 part of your making amends?
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner, I made a bad
4 decision writing that letter and there is no --
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Is that the
6 letter to the --
7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: To the (inaudible).
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- periodical?
9 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Yes.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I made the bad decision,
12 Commissioner, writing that letter and I am ashamed of
13 writing it.
14 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: It wasn't that long
15 ago.
16 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: (Inaudible). And I'm going
17 to explain to you my state of mind when I wrote it.
18 When I wrote it, Commissioner, my only intention was
19 that I -- to say that I am glad that Armenia has an army
20 to protect itself. Because Armenia, for 800 years, they
21 did not have an army to protect themselves. And that's
22 the point and I do love Armenia and I do love the
23 Armenian people. That's the only thing I was trying to
24 get across. But what I didn't realize back then, that
25 even though in the whole, if you read the letter
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1 carefully, Commissioner and I --
2 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: I read it.
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: There is not one word about
4 violence in there. There's not one -- the word Turkey
5 is not even in there. There's nothing about Turkey,
6 Turks. There's nothing about me telling anybody go
7 commit crime, go hurt somebody; nothing. The only point
8 I was making back there that I was proud that Armenia
9 has an army to protect itself, to protect its border,
10 because the reason for that is because there is next to
11 Armenia, Commissioner, is this Republic called
12 Azerbaijan, who's President kept, every couple of weeks,
13 declaring that he was going to bomb Armenia and they're
14 going to take Armenia's capital and all this. So that's
15 the state of mind that I had and I'm not justifying --
16 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: I'm interested in
17 your state of mind right here, right now at this
18 hearing.
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I get it. So I am -- I did
20 make bad decisions writing that letter. My intention
21 was that I made sure that I said nothing about violence
22 in there.
23 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Why are you saying
24 it's a bad decision today?
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Because I don't have -- I
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1 don't have no right. It's none of my business. Armenia
2 got generals and president. It's their job to protect.
3 What the hell, do I care? It's not my job. I made a
4 terrible choice. I made a poor choice by putting my
5 nose into something that I thought, just get it out of
6 my chest, say you know what I'm glad, and you know, I do
7 watch football, Commissioner, and every Sunday I see the
8 U.S. Armed Forces in the football games with their jets
9 flying over, and I am proud of that. I'm not American
10 but I'm proud of them, because they're young men that
11 joined the Army, the Navy, and the Air Force to protect
12 this country, and that's beautiful, I think. That's
13 courageous and I honor them, I respect them. I wish I
14 had the sense back then as an 18-year-old joining the
15 Navy and the Army instead of murdering a human being.
16 That's what I should have done.
17 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: When you look back
18 with what you know today, with this letter you wrote in
19 2012, do you see how it could have been taken in a
20 matter different than you're explaining?
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Absolutely. I get it today.
22 But when I wrote it, Commissioner --
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Yeah, 2012 or --
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- my intention --
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- 2013?
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1 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: 2012.
2 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: I think it was
3 written in '12 and published in --
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Published --
5 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- 2013.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- in 2013.
7 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: It was 2012.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: And it was
9 published in 2013. No, I --
10 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: No, I think the hearing was in
11 2013 where it was brought up. It was published in 2012.
12 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: I have 2012.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
14 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: So I ask you how --
15 today when you look back how, if you think it was
16 possible, for this letter to be taken in a different
17 manner than you meant it?
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: It's possible, Commissioner.
19 Commissioner, people can take what you say differently
20 than -- completely translate it into something else.
21 Absolutely. I did not think about that and I'm honestly
22 telling you I did not think about that part. All I --
23 all I -- my whole thought process at the time is to say
24 I love Armenia, I love Armenian people, and I'm proud
25 that Armenia has an army to protect themselves
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1 because --
2 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Isn't this kind of
3 what got you in trouble in the first place, though?
4 These strong beliefs about -- these strong nationalist
5 beliefs for your country and the way they have been
6 treated?
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: In a sense, it did because I
8 took a long -- there is -- I don't think there is
9 anything wrong with people loving their country.
10 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Absolutely not.
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: But as a young man,
12 Commissioner, what I did is I took -- mixed violence
13 with that and that's why I screwed up. I took -- I took
14 violence and mixed them together. And that's what I'm
15 ashamed of. That's what I screwed up.
16 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Did you ever
17 consider writing another letter to them and maybe
18 clarifying what you actually meant or clarifying your
19 position today?
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner, I thought --
21 like I said, I don't think there is anything violent
22 about it. I mean, who the hell am I to tell any
23 Armenian armed forces what to do. They're not going to
24 do -- they're not going to listen to me. And the point
25 is being made, that if I remember from the last hearing,
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1 that this could have resorted -- could have caused
2 somebody to go resort to violence, and that's possible.
3 Anybody, you know, some people, blaming Donald Trump
4 right now for inciting racism. The man is not really
5 inciting racism, but people who want to believe
6 something, they can believe that. And they can take
7 what you say or I say out of context. But as I wrote
8 that, not only did I -- did I talk about nonviolent -- I
9 mean anything about violence in there, not only did not
10 mention any Turks or Azerbaijan's or anybody, my whole
11 point or the fact is that there is no violence. There
12 is no violence for 34 years. And then nobody resorted
13 to violence and (inaudible) because the new generation
14 is not an idiot like me. The new generation is not
15 stupid like me. The new generation is focusing their
16 life on education and doing something good and they're
17 not angry and dumb like I was when I was a kid.
18 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Do you -- do you
19 think you have a certain reputation among the Armenian
20 people?
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner, there is two
22 points to that. When I was first arrested, this my
23 case, this murder I committed was major news in the
24 media, and at the time way back and the day there was a
25 lot of survivors of the Armenian Genocide back then. My
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1 grandmother had just passed away like a year or two
2 before that and a lot of -- all the Armenians they did
3 tell their sons, you know what, that guys not a
4 murderer, he's a hero, because you know -- because he
5 didn't kill an innocent man, because he killed a
6 government that murdered us. That's what they did tell
7 that because kids told me that years and years and years
8 ago. They did tell them and some people did see me as a
9 martyr, it's a fact. (Inaudible).
10 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: I don't think we're
11 going to have time. I think it was a transcript from
12 the last hearing, maybe 2015, it could have been 2013
13 but you say, I've seen so much stuff written about me,
14 you know, how, you know, about the murder and, you know,
15 some people see me as a martyr, others see me as a hero.
16 Other people see me a piece of scum, and everything
17 else. I just learned, I just don't pay no credence to a
18 lot of this stuff. How do you see yourself?
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I see myself as a murderer.
20 That's what I did. I don't -- it doesn't -- at the time
21 maybe I thought I was Superman or whatever. It didn't
22 matter. The fact is, I'm a murderer. I murdered a
23 human being. And I know you heard this a million times,
24 Commissioner, and I would -- if I could give my life
25 right now to bring Mr. Arikan back, I'd do it like that
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1 in a -- in a split second, because I'd rather be buried
2 somewhere and have the person I murdered back alive than
3 be -- live a life knowing that, hey, this guy murdered
4 that guy. And is there any Armenians that's going to
5 look at me and say no, he's not a murderer, he's a
6 martyr, I'm sure there is. But I don't care what they
7 think, Commissioner. I've had -- I've said it -- and
8 like, I stated earlier, when the -- when the whole
9 courtroom was full of Armenians (inaudible), I raised my
10 hand and said I'm a murderer. I do apologize for what I
11 did. A lot of people didn't like that, Commissioner.
12 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Do you feel like
13 there's any obligation or moral responsibility on your
14 part to try to set the record straight about who you are
15 today and not who you used to be?
16 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Absolutely. It's --
17 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: What would that
18 involve or what would that entail?
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: That entails nonviolence,
20 Commissioner. The entails a peaceful way of living.
21 Commissioner asked me earlier what amends I made,
22 Commissioner Montes. This is my amends. I'm not done
23 with the amends. This is just a -- this is a lifelong
24 process. I'm going to live a whole life that I'm going
25 to preach against violence. I'm going to preach and
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1 help the homeless. And I'm going to help plant trees.
2 And that's the way I'm going to live, Commissioner, and
3 I'm not one to sit here and tell you something you want
4 to hear, you know. And I had -- I had prisoners with
5 this brother issue, with this group issue. A lot of
6 inmates think like convicts. Just go tell them, you
7 know. Oh yeah, I remember, my brother told me, go tell
8 them that. I can't do that. I cannot lie,
9 Commissioner. I'm not going to sit here and tell you
10 what you want to hear. I'm going to -- every word
11 coming out of my mouth is the truth. I'm not going to
12 lie. I'm not going to mislead you. I'm not going to
13 sucker you into believing this or that if I don't feel
14 it. It's not my nature to do that.
15 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Well, since we're
16 on the topic of what we discussed in the Risk Assessment
17 where one of the doctor's conclusions at the bottom of
18 page 20 in the current Risk Assessment was that
19 (inaudible) -- "At the same time it appears he has not
20 done everything he can to disassociate himself from
21 Armenian politics and those who may still be interested
22 in violence." So I don't know, is that something that's
23 an obligation on you, that you're responsible for? Is
24 that something out of your control? Firstly, do you
25 agree with that statement?
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1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: That I haven't done
2 everything to --
3 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: That's the
4 doctor's. You have -- you have --
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah, I do, yes. Oh, yeah I
6 did read it. I did read it, yes.
7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: So what is your
8 take on that statement?
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Well, Commissioner, I don't
10 know if I've done everything I can to denounce violence
11 but at the same --
12 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Tell me what you
13 have done.
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: What I -- like I said, the
15 first amends (inaudible) how I changed my state of mind.
16 I denounce violence and every parole hearing I go to,
17 Commissioner, and the District Attorney a couple of
18 times made the point how come you don't have a newspaper
19 write a article. Well, to me article is nothing near as
20 what it is for me to sit here and tell you that. I'd
21 rather sit here and verbally, under oath, tell you how
22 sorry I am than to write this article and give it to
23 (inaudible) my family and tell them, hey, get this
24 printed.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: But don't you
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1 think the article would be so much more far reaching?
2 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner, I think just --
3 Commissioner, when I was in CM -- I mean CMC --
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: There are so many
5 more people whose eyes saw the 2012 article in the -- in
6 the military periodical than saw your 2013 transcript or
7 2015 --
8 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: Oh, that's what I'd have to --
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- transcript.
10 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: That's what I'd have to
11 disagree.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
13 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: Not even close.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Well, I don't
15 know. I don't know where the transcript --
16 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: That's why --
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: We give you a
18 copy of --
19 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: I've --
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- the
21 transcript.
22 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: I've let it go down this road
23 a long time, but this periodical gets such limited
24 distribution, that it's almost laughable. These
25 hearings get such widespread reverberate in the Armenian
Northern California Court Reporters 152
1 community like you don't even know, that you have no
2 idea how much the community understands the fact that
3 he's in here admitted to this and apologizing for this.
4 So that's where I have to take real exception with.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: I don't know -- I
6 don't where that's published or --
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner, the --
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- where -- I
9 mean, you tell me.
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner, I would sit
11 here and tell you right now that if that newspaper --
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
13 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- is being published more
14 than two thousand, maybe three thousand or so I'd be
15 shocked. That newspaper gets handed out in the
16 military.
17 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Let's --
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. So --
19 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: If it's about
20 making amends, what difference does it make if it's one
21 person, ten people, a hundred people?
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Oh a hundred percent --
23 you're a hundred percent right. But the point I was
24 making Commissioner about the amends part, I just got a
25 letter from a man named Dave Morganty (phonetic).
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
2 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: He was the sponsor of my
3 self-help group in CMC.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: He just wrote to me that he
6 read my transcript on the Internet -- I mean the
7 transcript from this parole hearing. Commissioner,
8 everybody who gives a damn about me, who cares about me,
9 this is -- all they got to do is push a couple of
10 buttons and it's there. And some people are upset with
11 me for apologizing. Why are you apologizing? Well, I'm
12 apologizing because I was wrong what I did. I murdered
13 a human being. That's what I'm apologizing. I don't
14 care about what they think. I'm not under the influence
15 of anybody. You can ask Mark. Mark tells me to do this
16 and that for years. I don't listen to him. I get upset
17 at him.
18 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Share your
19 attorney/client (inaudible).
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No. No. I'm just making a
21 point that I'm just --
22 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: I will when I do my closing.
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: He'll get back at me, don't
24 worry. In other words, to me, Commissioner, if you shut
25 this microphone down and tell me, hey, go -- tell me
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1 now, what you think about this or that, I'd rather do it
2 here, I got to do it under oath.
3 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: (inaudible).
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: To me it's much more powerful
5 to apologize and to show remorse and everything I've
6 done wrong right under oath verbally where anybody can
7 read it anywhere.
8 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Here's what we're
9 doing. We try to figure out who you were at the time of
10 the life crime which we've talked about --
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
12 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- and then we try
13 and figure out who you are today.
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Absolutely.
15 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: The questions are
16 dealing with how you are today. Let's change topics a
17 little bit. At some point, I think it was 2002, you
18 were credited with making a statement that you would --
19 if the Turkish government would admit to genocide, you
20 would be willing to remain in prison for the rest of
21 your life and not seek parole. Did you remember making
22 that statement?
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner, what I said
24 Commissioner, was if the Turkish government had
25 recognized the Armenian Genocide, I would not be in
Northern California Court Reporters 155
1 prison. That's what I said.
2 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: You didn't make
3 that statement?
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Not -- I made the statement
5 the way I'm saying it. Now, it was not Mark, was it.?
6 Or did he -- that's they --
7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: That might be a
8 paraphrase by a previous Commissioner --
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
10 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- but I wanted to
11 clear that up.
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: What did you say?
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: That if the Turkish
15 government in 1982 had acknowledged and apologized for
16 the Armenian Genocide and made amends with the Armenian
17 people, that Mr. Arikan would have never been murdered.
18 I did say that.
19 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: You consider
20 yourself today a solider in or for the Armenian Army?
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner, I'm too old,
22 too tired to be a solider of anything, Commissioner.
23 All I desire is peace and the consultation. If the
24 Turkish government doesn't acknowledge the Armenian
25 Genocide, they want to bulldoze Armenian churches who
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1 gives -- I'm trying to avoid from saying the S-word,
2 Commissioner. I just --
3 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay.
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I don't --
5 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: That's a
6 transformation from where you used to be because that
7 19-year-old kid was really (inaudible).
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner, back then --
9 Commissioner, back then if you -- I committed --
10 murdered Mr. Arikan on January 28th. If you had -- if
11 you had known me and come to me on the 21st -- I mean,
12 29th, Commissioner when I was -- it was -- it was July
13 4th for me. I was happy as hell because I really
14 believed that I just shot the man who caused all the
15 suffering to my people.
16 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay. I believe
17 that. But what motivates you in sometime in 2012 and
18 what do you gain by writing a letter to an Armenian
19 magazine? I don't care if the publication is ten, what
20 motivates you and what do you gain by writing the
21 letter?
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Well, Commissioner, I --
23 Commissioner, I was wrong. I made a mistake. I made a
24 bad decision. But --
25 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: You didn't say
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1 anything about the life crime. So I'm trying to --
2 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Well, yeah, that's what I'm
3 saying. I acknowledge, I made a mistake, Commissioner.
4 Sometime I said stuff and I do stuff that I regret.
5 Sometimes, me and my cellie argue about a shot of coffee
6 or making too much noise.
7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: A shot of coffee --
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: And I get that.
9 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- is not
10 (inaudible).
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I get it. I get it. What
12 I'm trying to say that I do acknowledge the article was
13 a bad choice, but at the same time, please be reasonable
14 to me, Commissioner. Please read the article and say,
15 you know what, I'm going to so called Devil's advocate.
16 If you were my attorney and he was not, and you can tell
17 him, Mark, wait a minute, show me one sentence in here
18 where this guy is talking about violence.
19 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: I'm asking you why
20 you wrote it in the first place. What were you trying
21 to accomplish by writing it in the --
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No, my --
23 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- first place?
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: My intention was simply
25 saying that I love Armenia, I love Armenian people, and
Northern California Court Reporters 158
1 I'm glad that Armenia finally got -- after 800 years of
2 being persecuted, butchered, and everything else, they
3 finally had the sense to build an army to protect
4 themselves. That's the only intention I had,
5 Commissioner. That's why when you read this paper, you
6 can take my name out of that article, Commissioner, and
7 you can take the Armenia out of it and you could say,
8 wait, a minute, I could have wrote this article to the
9 Marines myself. Like instead of saying Armenia, you
10 could say America.
11 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Yeah. But you're
12 missing context. To me context is, if somebody else
13 writes it, they're not sitting in prison for murdering a
14 Turkish official.
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Absolutely.
16 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: The context for you
17 is completely different. Me writing a letter, your
18 attorney writing a letter, would be completely
19 different.
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: It is.
21 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: It's a free country
22 here. Freedom of speech, say whatever you want. But
23 it's different for you. You have a whole history that's
24 different than I would say --
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: That's --
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1 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- just about
2 anybody.
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: That's why I'm acknowledging,
4 Commissioner, that I made a mistake. I'm also making an
5 oath to you and to Mark and my mother and my girlfriend,
6 everybody that I will never, ever again write articles
7 like that because some people, even though it's not my
8 intention to -- it's never going to be my intention --
9 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: To me, it's not
10 really the article, but it's what motivated you to write
11 the article, is what I am asking you.
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Well, the motivation,
13 Commissioner, was that I wanted to express my love and
14 my admiration for the Armenian people and Armenia and I
15 do care about their security.
16 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: You could have done
17 that. I mean --
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Well, I --
19 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- you could have
20 done that in a paragraph.
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Well, I mean, yeah. I
22 acknowledge that, I made a -- I was wrong. I made a
23 mistake. I made a bad decision, a hundred percent.
24 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: What about you that
25 allows a mistake to be made in middle of 2012 when
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1 you've been in prison for so many years?
2 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Well, okay, let me explain it
3 this way. What got me writing that article was the fact
4 that if you look at -- put up Azerbaijan on the
5 Internet, Commissioner, and go back, they got this
6 dictator over there named Aliyev, who took power from
7 his dad and now he's the dictator. Every couple of
8 weeks, he would make statements that any day they can
9 attack Armenia and bomb Yerevan, the capital of Armenia
10 and take our beautiful lake that is Armenia, Sevan and
11 make it theirs. Reading this I was touched by that.
12 They got this guy. That's what Hammurabi of Iran did to
13 Israel.
14 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: So you are
15 concerned about the welfare of Armenia?
16 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Absolutely.
17 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: And you are
18 concerned what another government might do to Armenia?
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Absolutely.
20 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Does that sound
21 familiar to you at all?
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Does that what?
23 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Does that sound
24 familiar to you at all?
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Well, it sounds familiar
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1 because in the past, Commissioner, I took my love of
2 Armenia and my hatred of injustice, and I resorted to
3 violence. That's never going to happen, never. I'm not
4 even put -- touch anybody's hair. I will not even put a
5 finger on anybody because of any political reason,
6 girlfriend arguments, money arguments, whatever it is.
7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: You're just --
8 you're just tired. Father Time has come --
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner --
10 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- and you're
11 tired.
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner, I keep -- every
13 time that question rises, every time I remember it, I
14 don't know if it was a movie or something, I had seen
15 this guy beating up a dog with a newspaper, a wet
16 newspaper. I think it's a cord or something, counsel,
17 that's what I feel like. I feel like I've been
18 beaten --
19 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Are you the dog or
20 the guy with the newspaper?
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Maybe both. I don't know.
22 But I feel, Commissioner, I'm drained. And when I
23 speak, I do speak loud, and I speak with passion because
24 I am --
25 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: (Inaudible).
Northern California Court Reporters 162
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- ashamed.
2 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: You're a very
3 passionate guy.
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Because, Commissioner, this
5 is a serious thing I did. And it's not -- it's not --
6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: (Inaudible).
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: It's not -- it's embarrassing
8 to be 50 or 40 years old and sit here as the only
9 murderer in prison -- I mean, in this room. You guys
10 got cars and kids and houses and bank accounts and I
11 ain't got nothing. What I did to Mr. Arikan and his
12 family and to my family and to myself is inexcusable.
13 There is absolutely nothing I can say that could justify
14 that. And I'm deeply embarrassed and the rest of my
15 life I'm going to commit not only to not harm anybody, I
16 wouldn't even steal a ham if I was starving to death.
17 That's how serious I am, because it's not going to
18 happen. I'm not going to violate any laws out there
19 whatsoever that would even put a handcuff on me for five
20 seconds.
21 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: So you told me
22 about the amends that you have made, but I don't think
23 we talked about the amends that you are planning on
24 making. Can you address that?
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner, all these
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1 self-help groups I've taken in the last -- since 2002
2 from starting with CROP, I have learned that only have I
3 committed myself to peace and -- peace and friendship
4 between nations and people, everything, the rest of my
5 life, I'm going to devote the -- I've learned a great
6 deal from AA and NA and --
7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: I'll be talking
8 about your programming here --
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Okay.
10 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- in a minute.
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I'm going to take what I
12 learned from this, Commissioner, and put it into
13 positive use. In Armenia -- that's what I would like to
14 go to Armenia, if I'm allowed to. If not then, I'll go
15 to -- we'll get to that.
16 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: We'll talk about
17 that in parole plans.
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. So what I intend to do
19 to go to -- Armenia, the one thing is unfortunately in
20 Armenia there is a lot of alcoholic problems, maybe more
21 so than in the United States. I would commit -- devote
22 myself to fight against alcoholism. There is also
23 unfortunately domestic abuse. There I want to do what I
24 can to stop that. There is also Armenia Tree Project
25 there.
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1 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: If you went back to
2 Armenia, I don't know where you're going to go, but if
3 you went back to Armenia would you get involved in
4 politics?
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No, Commissioner.
6 Commissioner, I'm done with politics, you know. I'm
7 done completely. I don't -- I don't -- whatever --
8 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Is that realistic?
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner?
10 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: I see your passion
11 today.
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I mean -- I mean --
13 Commissioner, I cannot help hearing news. I mean, I do
14 these -- before I hated politicians because I saw them
15 as liars and cheaters and, you know, nothing they say or
16 do is dignified. That's how I saw them, but now I know
17 that politicians stop a lot of wars. They stop a lot of
18 disputes. They do a lot of good in the world. But back
19 then, I didn't -- I didn't see them as like that. Am I
20 going to be interested about the welfare of Armenia, of
21 course I am. Do I want Armenia to be rich and
22 prosperous, of course I do. Am I going to become a
23 politician and preach hatred and -- that's not going to
24 happen, Commissioner. The only thing I'm interested in
25 as far as my personal life is to be able to marry my
Northern California Court Reporters 165
1 girlfriend and have a home somewhere and live a peaceful
2 life. That's my intention. I don't care about any
3 politics, whatever. Because I came to terms that no
4 matter what I say, no matter what I do, whatever is
5 going to happen is going to happen. And I have no place
6 in it. And then if I say something -- let's say take
7 your side or his side, the whole world or anybody that
8 follows it, they would be, who the hell is that murderer
9 to give his opinion about this or that issue.
10 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay.
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: It's not my place,
12 Commissioner, and I've given you my word that I will not
13 be in any campaigning, be a politician, a mayor, a --
14 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: I'm not -- I'm not
15 saying you can or can't. I was just asking you --
16 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No. I'm just telling you
17 that I'm out of politics, I'm out of violence. I'm into
18 making amends, peaceful life, and giving what I can to
19 make amends the rest of my life.
20 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Thank you.
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: That's what I commit to,
22 Commissioner.
23 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Thank you.
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: You got my word. It's under
25 oath.
Northern California Court Reporters 166
1 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Thank you.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: All right.
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I'm sorry. I know I'm
4 getting loud, Commissioner. I'm sorry. My cellie keeps
5 telling me to shut up, when I talk in the cell too.
6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: We're not going to
7 tell you to shut up.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: We may -- we may
9 focus you back on the question, but we're not going
10 to --
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I know I do distract.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- tell you --
13 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I'm sorry about that.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- to show up --
15 to shut up. How do you think the Armenian nationalists
16 view you?
17 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: View me?
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Well, the first thing comes
20 to mind, who gives a damn? I don't care what they view
21 me.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Well, that's not
23 the question.
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I mean, I know but I don't
25 care what they -- what they think about me. But the
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1 thing is, no matter what they think, it's not going to
2 matter because my intention is peace. My intention is
3 to have a peaceful life. I don't care what they think.
4 And sometime, Commissioner, forgive me for saying this,
5 that this -- it's in the papers and it came up -- they
6 keep talking about this radicals and radicals.
7 Commissioner, you're looking at the worst one. I was
8 the worst one.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: There hasn't been no violence
11 for 34 years. Thirty-four years ago you were in junior
12 high school, you know. Just (inaudible) -- nothing
13 violent is taking place.
14 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Any violence where?
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I'm talking about violence as
16 far as Armenians and Turks are concerned.
17 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Oh, that's what
18 you're talking about?
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
20 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: I just needed some
21 context with this.
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. Yeah.
23 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay.
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: So there is no violence and
25 they keep asking me what about radicals. And I say what
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1 radicals? I was the radical. I'm the one that resorted
2 to violence. I'm the one that checked myself and
3 used -- I'm sure you've seen many times, these
4 burglaries and murderers, they are -- they're out there
5 now preaching against it. That's what I want to do
6 Commissioner. These people -- they can call themselves
7 radical -- but they just -- I was the radical. I'm the
8 one that did this. I'm the one that resorted to
9 violence. I don't -- in other words, in a sense, I'm
10 saying I don't believe that there's this fog of thing or
11 whatever it's called they put out there. There's this
12 great number of people just salivating over violence and
13 I don't believe that. If they were solid dudes -- if
14 they were preaching violence, if they -- where is the
15 violence? There is no violence. It was done in 1983,
16 Commissioner. That's a -- that's a generation ago. And
17 I don't believe there is such a thing going on. I don't
18 believe there is going to be such a thing. And I don't
19 think anybody would have the audacity to even suggest
20 something like that to me because I'm going to pick my
21 cell phone up. Hey, CO, we got a guy over here trying
22 to talk to me about violence. I'm going to have him put
23 handcuff on him. Let him come in here for a couple of
24 years and see what it is, what violence and thought of
25 violence and act of violence would do, because I've been
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1 here -- I've been here for 35 years now, Commissioner.
2 What I know that there is nothing good will come out of
3 this; nothing. Nothing good that will come out of
4 violence. Nothing good will come out of any kind of
5 disputes that resorts to violence and there is nobody on
6 this planet, no Armenian for sure, that can testify that
7 more than I can. I see what I did. I see what the
8 results, the circumstances of what I did is.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: So are there
10 people, Armenians out there who celebrate your crime
11 still today?
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner, there is ten
13 million Armenians in the world.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I don't know what the hell
16 their thinking. I don't know what they know.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: But you know
18 there's a Facebook --
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I don't have --
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- fan club or
21 something like that.
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I don't -- I don't have
23 computers in here, I don't know. But I think -- oh
24 yeah, I think there is a page here. Commissioner, I
25 read it. Apparently, ten million Armenians, maybe there
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1 is a couple thousand of them or something that they see
2 me as a martyr or hero, whatever they see. If they
3 care, it's on -- it's on the Internet. They can read it
4 and I've -- and I've written letters to people that they
5 know my position. They know -- they know what I go
6 through. They know what my position is because they
7 know (inaudible). I know maybe you're going to be told
8 otherwise, but in 2002, when I did that in the courtroom
9 that I apologized for my actions, for my crime, not
10 every Armenian in the world who gives a damn about me
11 Commissioner, believe me, heard it. He was my Lord. He
12 lives out there. He knows.
13 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Or they think
14 you're a traitor or something? They thought you were a
15 traitor for apologizing?
16 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I'm sure some people did,
17 Commissioner. Just like I can point to you another
18 example of that, some other way. You think -- everybody
19 in here, including me, thinks in this room that Charles
20 Manson is a piece of crap. Nobody would, with any
21 decency would argue against that. But you got -- even
22 COs told me, you know, you have any idea how many people
23 write to Charles Manson. They send him money. They
24 send him cell phones and they -- there is actually in
25 the United States, where it's a nation built on liberty
Northern California Court Reporters 171
1 and peace and love, there is a couple thousand Americans
2 that love that guy. So there is ten million Armenians
3 out there, Commissioner. Do some of them see me as a
4 hero? Absolutely, I'm sure there is. What can I do
5 to -- the only thing I can do is speak against it. Even
6 if --
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: So after --
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- you --
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Well, that's the
10 question --
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Okay.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- what is the
13 question.
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Okay, Commissioner.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Is what have you
16 done to distance yourself or to denounce your position
17 or your -- the atrocity you committed?
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner, the only thing
19 I can know is preach against it, to acknowledge it in
20 court, to acknowledge it here, to acknowledge it -- I
21 don't know what else is there. I mean, if you put a
22 camera on me in my cell and hook me up to the Internet,
23 I'll give a speech. I wish there was a camera right
24 here right now, so they can not only read what I'm
25 saying, they can see what I'm saying.
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
2 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: But unfortunately, there
3 isn't. And I commit myself to nonviolence the rest of
4 my life, Commissioner, and if there is a couple of
5 Armenians or a couple thousand Armenians they see me as
6 a hero, what can I do -- the last -- since 2002, for 14
7 years, I'm denouncing what I did. For 14 years, what
8 I'm saying what I did was cowardice and shameful and
9 embarrassing. And I don't know what else can I say. I
10 keep repeating the same thing for 14 years and if they
11 haven't heard it for 14 years, they need to get on the
12 Internet and find out. And if -- and if this -- and if
13 this Panel thinks that if I can write an article in the
14 newspaper that will help them, I'll promise you I'll
15 write it as soon as I get back.
16 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: We're not asking
17 you to do that.
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I know, I'm just saying
19 because to me martyr -- Commissioner, I talked with
20 Mark. I'll do -- sorry about attorney/client flaunting.
21 I talked to Mark a few times. I said Mark, should I
22 write this. And he said -- he keeps repeating the same,
23 saying you're doing it under oath, in front of the
24 Commissioners, anybody can read it. What the hell is
25 this about article? This is ten times more important
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1 and affective, I believe, because I'm doing it verbally.
2 I'm doing it under oath. I'm doing it to the
3 Commissioners, and they're here. I know they're here to
4 oppose me. They hear what I'm doing and saying, you
5 know. They can think whatever, but I can't change their
6 mind. They want me to die in here. I can never change
7 their mind because they're not going to change their
8 mind. But there is some Armenians that think I'm a
9 hero. They (inaudible) it don't matter what I say,
10 Commissioner, they're not going to change their mind.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: So you're not a
12 hero, what are you?
13 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I'm not a hero, Commissioner.
14 I'm a murderer. I committed -- I murdered an innocent
15 man who was going to work. I murdered a man who was --
16 who had a different opinion than me. What I did was
17 cowardice, cowardly, and shameful. That's what I did,
18 Commissioner. There is nothing good about what I did.
19 Nothing humane about what I did.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I did not know that as a
22 young man -- I gave -- if I had like one of those time
23 warps when I was -- when I was 19 years old and you
24 could take what I just said back then I would -- I would
25 tell you that there's no way that was -- that's me
Northern California Court Reporters 174
1 talking, because I would have never apologized for what
2 I did. But now I get it, Commissioner. I get it for a
3 couple of decades that what I did is unforgiveable and
4 what I did is shameful. What I did is made things
5 worse. I did not have nothing except made a widow out
6 of a woman, made an orphan out of a young woman. That's
7 what I did. There is nothing to be proud about that.
8 And I am deeply ashamed of that. And if there is some
9 Armenians that think that what, I'm a hero, then shame
10 on them, because I don't think I'm a hero. What I did
11 is inexcusable and shameful. That's what I think. And
12 they're not going to come to me and tell me I'm a hero
13 because I'm going to tell them to get lost. Tell them
14 if you think I'm a hero, why don't you come in here and
15 do a couple of years of my time. They're not doing
16 time. I'm doing time. They're not thinking about what
17 I did. I'm thinking what I did. I'm paying the
18 circumstances, the consequences of it and I am ashamed
19 of what I did, Commissioner.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
21 Commissioner?
22 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: No. No further
23 questions.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: All right.
25 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Post-conviction?
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Let's do the
2 post-conviction.
3 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay. Do we have
4 time?
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm. Unless
6 you -- it's up to you.
7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: All right. Is
8 everybody good? Anybody want to take a break?
9 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: A break sounds good to me.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Let's take --
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. I need to drink --
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Let's take ten
13 minutes.
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- some water.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Let's take ten
16 minutes. Yeah, you're doing a lot of talking.
17 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: 12:45, we're going
18 to take a short break.
19 (Off the record.)
20 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: We're back on the
21 record, Commissioner.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Thank you. It's
23 about 1:05. We're back from a short recess. And I want
24 to point out that Barbara Wolff, the Supervising LA DA
25 who was present earlier had to leave, so she is no
Northern California Court Reporters 176
1 longer an observer here today.
2 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Thank you. And we
3 will proceed to post-commitment factors. All right.
4 Mr. Sassounian, you were here in 2015, so you know the
5 format of this hearing; correct?
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: The first part of
8 the hearing is basically pre-conviction factors and we
9 talk about historical information; everything you did
10 before you came to prison. And the second part --
11 post-conviction, post-commitment factors are what you
12 have done, specifically since your last hearing,
13 although I might talk about some historical information
14 as well. Okay? I will be covering areas of education,
15 work history, vocational training, disciplinary record,
16 programming, and parole plans to include support
17 letters, transitional housing, Relapse Prevention Plans;
18 those types of things. Okay?
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Okay.
20 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: All right. So as
21 we said, you were here on February 5th, 2015, received a
22 three-year denial. The Board of Parole Hearings, on
23 their own motion, conducted an Administrative Review and
24 determined it was appropriate to advance your case from
25 three years to 18 months, and that's what brings us here
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1 today. Your classification score remains a 19; correct?
2 That's the legal minimum score you can have with your
3 life crime. You're Medium-A. You're General
4 Population; so that's correct?
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Correct.
6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Have you ever been
7 SNY ever?
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No.
9 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: No? All right.
10 And normally, this is the point in the hearing where I
11 ask about tattoos. We've done that, so I'm not going to
12 ask that. I mean I typically ask about tattoos and
13 disruptive groups. We've done that too, so that's
14 already on the record; I'm not going to talk about that.
15 One thing I did want to talk about, though, because I
16 was a little confused is one of our databases indicates
17 a ICE or Immigration Customs Enforcements hold, and I --
18 and I thought maybe you said you didn't have one.
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No, I do -- I do have an ICE
20 hold.
21 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: You have an ICE
22 hold? Okay.
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
24 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: He's had an ICE hold since he
25 was in the county jail.
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1 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: All right. So I
2 don't know what happens if you get a date. I don't know
3 concurrent policy about --
4 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: What we -- the reason we
5 submitted both the plans for Armenia and here is, he's a
6 citizen of Armenia, so if he gets a date, ICE deports
7 him and he would voluntarily deport. If he went into
8 ICE custody, then that would be why we have the plans
9 for Armenia. If ICE keeps him there on that 180-day
10 alternative, where, under the current Federal Court
11 orders, then he would -- that's why we have the
12 alternative plans.
13 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay. Fair enough.
14 We'll talk about that during parole plans. So education
15 indicates -- and you've talked a lot about your
16 education. I just do this because of force of habit.
17 Dropped out in tenth grade, expelled for truancy, got
18 your GED in 1990; correct?
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
20 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: And I saw that in
21 December 2014 you enrolled in Patten University. Have
22 you followed up on that or --
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Oh, I'm sorry I didn't --
24 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Patten University.
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah, I went to -- yeah, I
Northern California Court Reporters 179
1 did Patten University. I did 99A, then I passed and
2 went to the 99B, but it was too much for me and I --
3 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay. You
4 talked --
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: You finished
6 that.
7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: We talked about
8 that; right?
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Yeah.
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
11 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: All right. So you
12 never received the AA degree, then?
13 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No. No.
14 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay. Is that
15 something you're still interested in or you just don't
16 have the time for it?
17 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: It's not going to happen,
18 Commissioner, because I just --
19 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Sure.
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah, I'm sorry.
21 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: No. You don't have
22 to apologize. It's just that I always tell inmates the
23 Board's policy, pretty much common sense. If
24 educational upgrades are available to you and it's not
25 an issue with your time or finances, it's good to
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1 upgrade educationally. No Panel is ever going to tell
2 you've got too much education.
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I'm --
4 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: I'm sure you
5 already know that.
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Thank you, Commissioner.
7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: All right. Work
8 history, is your current assignment dining room
9 scullery?
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
11 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: What is -- what do
12 you do there?
13 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I'm a linebacker. I clean up
14 the -- I pass the food with the utilizes and stuff, then
15 afterwards, I clean up the area.
16 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay. And I've
17 looked at your inmate assignment history that goes back
18 since you got here, and you've had a number of jobs,
19 yard worker, maintenance mechanic, porter, a lot of
20 different jobs in the prison. And basically what I look
21 at is, if you are working, are you obtaining average,
22 above-average work supervisors reports and --
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
24 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- that's what I've
25 seen. I don't need to see them, I've seen them. Yeah.
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1 It's okay. That's what we look for. If an inmate is
2 going to have prison employment, that's -- we want him
3 to have --
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
5 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- those kind of
6 work supervisor ratings and laudatory chronos, which you
7 have done. So I don't see any issue with any of your
8 work history. Vocational training, you've obtained --
9 you've been in a long time, but you obtained a lot of
10 vocational training; correct? I'll go over what I have
11 and you tell me if it's accurate or if we need to add
12 something. I see sometime in the 1980s, vocational
13 machine shop or sheet metal; did you --
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
15 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: And is that a
16 finished vocation?
17 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I don't think so,
18 Commissioner, too. I don't think I finished it.
19 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: I know a lot of
20 times inmates transfer, programs shut down --
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
22 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- instructions
23 leave. All right. But you got some training in machine
24 shop sheet metal.
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes. Yes, sir.
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1 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: And vocational silk
2 screening in early '90s?
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
4 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Did you finish that
5 one?
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: You know, Commissioner, I
7 thought I finished it and I thought I graduate -- got a
8 certificate, but on file it's not there. And that's why
9 I'm saying I thought, so I'm not sure, so --
10 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Maybe --
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- but --
12 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Maybe (inaudible)
13 in silk-screening, so it's not (inaudible).
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. Well, I do I know I
15 got the general knowledge of it, yes.
16 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: And then 2012
17 certification as a certified customer service
18 specialist.
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
20 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Any other --
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah, also --
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Electrical
23 technician, do you use that?
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. That's a -- yeah,
25 that's the same one. I think it's called customer
Northern California Court Reporters 183
1 specialist and a technician, it's the same one.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: It's the same
3 thing?
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. And I also got one in
5 jacket factory, it's called journeymen at CMC right
6 before I came to San Quentin.
7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Any other
8 vocational training?
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I believe that's it. I was
10 getting one in Lancaster, the office (inaudible) --
11 office services, but they shut it down and also in CMC
12 dry-cleaning, I was half way and they shut that down too
13 because of the budget issues.
14 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Yeah. The good
15 news is, apparently, CDCR has a lot bigger budget now
16 for programming and hopefully vocational, so hopefully
17 that won't happen as much as it has in the past.
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Um-hmm.
19 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: All right. So if
20 you were to get a date, and let's start in California,
21 and you -- ICE doesn't deport you, what kind of work
22 would you do in California?
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I got like three different
24 jobs I believe, Commissioner, in restaurants and --
25 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: But I'm just asking
Northern California Court Reporters 184
1 what you want to do?
2 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner, I -- you know,
3 I don't have one specific specialist area that I'm in as
4 far as work. I'm fine with any gardening, construction,
5 and restaurant, and whatever. I'm --
6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: You're 53; right?
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I'm -- yeah, I'll be 54 in
8 three weeks.
9 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Any medical or
10 health issues?
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Just high cholesterol and
12 eyesight going bad a little bit.
13 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay. All right.
14 And if you go back to Armenia, what kind of work would
15 you do over there?
16 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I also got jobs over there in
17 a restaurant, I believe, like two -- three different
18 restaurants and also -- I think there is also a program
19 where they pay you -- it's a tree planting program --
20 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: You mentioned that
21 before.
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. I really -- I have
23 become -- I have become an environmentalist now in
24 prison. I watch NOVA and nature and I really care about
25 the planet and I really like to --
Northern California Court Reporters 185
1 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Your region would
2 need that kind of work more than ever now; right?
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Thank you, Commissioner.
4 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: What kind of
5 restaurant skills do you have?
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Do I have?
7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Yeah.
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I don't have no restaurant.
9 I want to work in one.
10 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Oh, you want to
11 work in one?
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I wish I --
13 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: (Inaudible).
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- had a restaurant -- maybe
15 it'll give me some money someday.
16 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Yeah. That's a
17 good -- between you and him again. We're not going to
18 (inaudible)2:55:36.
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Hmm.
20 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay. Your
21 disciplinary record you've been in prison a long time.
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I have, thank you.
23 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: It's not really a
24 compliment.
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No, I meant -- I didn't meant
Northern California Court Reporters 186
1 it as (inaudible)2:55:55.
2 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay. And it looks
3 I count a total of 15 -- wait a minute, that's the wrong
4 one, 11 115s, those are the rules violations.
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: But not any -- the
7 most recent was 2001; does that sound right to you?
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I believe so. Yes. I think
9 I got one in 2006, it was a 115, they reduced it to 128.
10 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: I want to talk
11 about your 128s then.
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Okay.
13 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: So that was in 2001
14 at Lancaster, participation unlawful assembly.
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
16 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Do you remember --
17 that was a long time, do you remember what it was about?
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. I was on the yard and
19 apparently, the Hispanics, the Mexicans were having a
20 issue with one of the CO's that the CO kept searching
21 and tearing their houses up. And when I was on the
22 yard, the (inaudible)2:56:52, the Mexicans asked the
23 white inmates if they would stay out to protest against
24 some particular CO.
25 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Like some
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1 solidarity or something?
2 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. No, this was the
3 mainline, it just that in the one of the buildings, this
4 one CO kept messing with this Mexican -- I don't know
5 what the story is there but --
6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay.
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- so apparently, they went
8 around and asking the whites if they would part -- take
9 part in it by staying out on the yard after three
10 o'clock in the afternoon, and like an idiot, I said,
11 yeah, I'll, you know, if everybody else is doing it,
12 I'll stay out. But I said that's all we doing? We're
13 just staying out for a couple hours, in other words
14 there's not -- going to be no violence behind this. He
15 said no. No. We just staying out to get to the
16 Warden's attention to protest about this CO. Then I
17 made a mistake and I said okay, I'll stay out.
18 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: But at least it was
19 a peaceful, non-violent protest.
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. It was like 170
21 inmates, I think, stood out -- stayed --
22 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: That's an
23 improvement for you.
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes, it is.
25 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: It should be. All
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1 right. Then 1998, mutual combat also at Lancaster, you
2 and inmate, it looks like Margeta (phonetic)?
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Oh yes, I remember.
4 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay. You guys got
5 in a fight behind something.
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. A volleyball game.
7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Wow.
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. We were playing
9 volleyball and he started cussing me out. I started
10 cussing him out. And we both came around the net and we
11 started throwing punches at each other.
12 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Volleyball?
13 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. It was --
14 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Um-hmm.
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: It was silly.
16 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: 1995 participation
17 in work stoppage, Lancaster. Tehachapi, 1992 fighting
18 with an inmate. Do you remember that one?
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: '92?
20 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: At Tehachapi?
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Oh, yes. Yes.
22 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: What was that
23 about? I think it was with --
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: That was in the -- that was
25 in the kitchen I believe --
Northern California Court Reporters 189
1 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- inmate Rhodes
2 (phonetic).
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Oh, he --
4 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: In the B building.
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Okay. I got it is -- I got
6 a --
7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: (Inaudible).
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: What happened this was when
9 we were in upholstery and this inmate Rhodes was a black
10 inmate, he's African-American, and we used to horseplay
11 all the time and there was a lot of horseplay --
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Like --
13 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- yeah.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: And then when the -- when the
16 CO's or the free staff wasn't looking, we used to kind
17 of grab other each and threw each other -- throw each
18 other on the foams. It was being --
19 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: On the foam for the
20 upholstery?
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: On the -- yeah, they like
22 mattresses and stuff and we were (inaudible) and to turn
23 our tools. We had scissors and hammers and all kinds of
24 stuff --
25 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Um-hmm.
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1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- and he came and stood like
2 right next to me like he's facing this way and he
3 grabbed me like he was going to throw me on the floor,
4 and then I grabbed him, and I put him down on the floor.
5 And the free staff man saw this and he pushed the
6 alarm --
7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: That makes
8 correctional staff nervous, but (inaudible) --
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Oh, it did especially it was
10 silly because we used to always do it in the corner
11 where --
12 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: I've seen the 115
13 for horseplay. I've actually seen that so --
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. And this we used to
15 always do it in the corner and the silly thing was there
16 was a lot of scissors and hammers (inaudible) and the
17 other thing it was, it's different races, you know, I
18 was white and he was black. And --
19 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Makes people
20 nervous.
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. It made him nervous
22 and pushed the button. His sergeant said, you know
23 what, I don't believe you guys are fighting, you just --
24 you just --
25 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: You were
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1 (inaudible) and he was black.
2 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: At the time, yeah, I was
3 yes --
4 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay.
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- but I was --
6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Not messa.
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I'm sorry about that. You're
8 right.
9 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: (Inaudible). It
10 said Folsom you had force and violence guilty -- oh no,
11 this was at -- yeah, at New Folsom.
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I think it was a fight with
13 my cellies, yes.
14 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Inmate Barros?
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
16 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay. Then another
17 Folsom, force of violence, cell fight. That was also at
18 New Folsom. That was you and inmate Melgosa (phonetic)
19 and it looks like you were --
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Oh yeah, I remember that one.
21 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- found guilty.
22 You got a good memory. A lot inmates wouldn't remember.
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. That's -- yeah, I
24 remember (inaudible) because that was kind of -- well,
25 you not asking, so I won't tell you.
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1 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: I'll ask now.
2 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah, I had a cellie, this
3 guy was having problems with other cellies because he
4 was a homosexual and I didn't know and he came -- he
5 came to my cell and a couple days after that he said,
6 hey you want to flip-flop? And I go, like what the hell
7 is a flip-flop?
8 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: (Inaudible).
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I didn't know. And he wanted
10 to have sex with me. I said get out -- get out of here,
11 man.
12 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Right.
13 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: You know, so that's what the
14 fight was over.
15 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: So those are
16 violence and, you know, '87 failure to come to class,
17 '86 disobeying orders, '86 disobeying orders, '86 -- all
18 at San Quentin, leaving early from assignment, '85
19 refusing an order. So you got some violence in there.
20 You don't have any violence since 1998, last 115 in
21 2001. Overall, it's a -- it's a pretty decent
22 disciplinary record as fair as 115s go. Anything you
23 want to tell me about your 115s before I move on to your
24 custodial counseling chronos?
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes. I am guilty of it and
Northern California Court Reporters 193
1 I'm sorry that I had them. I wish I was sitting here
2 without any 115s at all, but as a young man, I kept
3 making poor choices and wrong decisions and that's what
4 the consequences is.
5 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay. We do see
6 some inmates who have been here a long time and they
7 don't have any disciplines, but it's not --
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
9 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- it's not
10 unusual. Okay. And then the custodial counseling
11 chronos also known as 128As, 15 of those. You haven't
12 had one since 2007 with theft. Do you remember what --
13 was it theft of food or?
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes. The CMC, yes.
15 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: What'd you take?
16 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: What'd you take?
17 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Do you remember?
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Oh, I used to work in the
19 kosher kitchen and I had some coffee that was like a
20 small strips of coffee, like, you know, opening them,
21 you know, (inaudible) -- you make sure in the -- in the
22 plastic --
23 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: (Inaudible).
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- I had some of those and I
25 had some strings to some cheese and maybe a muffin or
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1 two that I was taking out with me and what -- most, you
2 know, all the kitchens in the prisons, Commissioners,
3 all the kitchen workers when we come up, we usually have
4 a bag of food with us and they strip -- they pat us down
5 and they go, what do you got? And I'll tell them, you
6 know, I got this and this, and 99 percent of the time,
7 they let us keep us -- keep us -- let us keep this food.
8 You know, I'm not making excuses. It was illegal. It's
9 not -- it's not -- no documents saying that we can do
10 that, but they allow us, and that day, just the CO --
11 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Did you have
12 anything -- they didn't -- they don't have it down as a
13 115, so it's considered a --
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
15 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- counselling
16 chrono so --
17 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. Yeah. So that day
18 that the CO decided to write me up and I took -- I took
19 the blame and I didn't fight it and I was wrong, you
20 know.
21 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: The rest of them
22 are failure to report, cell standards, passing
23 contraband in '88, performance out of bounds, cell
24 coverings, so I don't believe that you're (inaudible)
25 counseling chronos are going to be an issue today. If
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1 there's a pattern of behavior that was recent, relevant,
2 we might look at it. But most of the stuff is pretty
3 (inaudible) in time. Let's talk about your programming.
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
5 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Before I talk about
6 programming, I usually frame it or put in the context of
7 a prior decision. Now, this is a brand new hearing as
8 the Commissioner told you, so we're not bound by
9 anything a previous Panel did. But a lot of Panels look
10 at a previous decision to see what happened, what
11 that -- what that last Panel's concerns were. I'm one
12 of those people, and I at least -- I least like to look
13 at it. Have you looked at it recently, your decision
14 from 2015?
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes, I did.
16 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Do you recall what
17 their issues were with suitability?
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I do, Commissioner.
19 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: What's your
20 understanding?
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: At my last (inaudible), I
22 believe, Commissioners' thing was that I think -- I
23 think I was denied because of the Commissioners didn't
24 believe that my brother had told me about what he had
25 done, that was the first thing. The other thing was the
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1 article I believe in the newspaper --
2 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: (Inaudible) talked
3 about (inaudible).
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
5 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: (inaudible) them.
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: And I don't know if it was --
7 I don't think was a third issue.
8 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: We'll talk about
9 that. I'll tell you what I --
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I'm trying to remember if
11 there was, I'm sorry.
12 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: That's pretty good.
13 I didn't -- it wasn't -- didn't intend it to be a pop
14 quiz or anything. And so --
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Oh, thank you.
16 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: I read it and they
17 did mention the nature and circumstances of the life
18 crime, keeping in mind that the life crime is a static
19 factor. You cannot change what happened in the life
20 crime, although there's a court case that says that if
21 the life crime is -- in addition or together with
22 information is still probative of current dangerousness,
23 you can use the life crime as a -- as a factor in
24 unsuitability. I think it was what's noted under
25 present mental condition, they had a question about what
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1 your current mindset was and has it changed, and then
2 they talked about the newspaper -- there was the letter
3 to the newspaper. And then they talked about a lack of
4 credibility that your actions didn't seem to match your
5 words, is your mindset change credible. So that's what
6 the last Panel said. So let's look at what you've done
7 since your last hearing. And I saw that you prepared a
8 list, so we'll -- I'll start with that and if anything
9 gets left out, then we can talk about it then. You did
10 the Reentry group, it was a six-month course. You did
11 that in 2016?
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
13 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay. (Inaudible)
14 Reentry group?
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I think they also called it
16 insight. There's a couple of them that they call
17 insight also. The four groups I did since my last,
18 Commissioner, if I don't mean to get off track.
19 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: No. I'm here to
20 have you tell me what you did between now and the last
21 hearing, so I don't care how we --
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
23 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: get it.
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: So first I did the Houses of
25 Healing. Then I did the --
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1 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: So tell me about
2 Houses of Healing.
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Houses of Healing,
4 Commissioner, was very affective to me because it went
5 right to the core of my crime which is -- which starts
6 from the childhood that, you know, that as I was in
7 there -- in that group, that I realized that a lot of
8 the resentments and the angers I was feeling, that was
9 actually coming from my childhood because of all the
10 trauma I suffered as a kid in my family with violence in
11 my family, the violence in the country.
12 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: If you put your
13 finger on like the one main factor that you were such an
14 angry 19-year-old, is that what it would be?
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No, I would -- I would put on
16 bad decision, Commissioner. I think that was --
17 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: A bad decision is a
18 result or a conclusion, so something leads you to make
19 bad decisions; right?
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
21 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: A bad decision is
22 what happens when --
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: That's true.
24 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: But if you had to
25 put your finger on what -- the main thing that made you
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1 such an angry young man who made bad decisions, what
2 would it be?
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Just the resentments I felt
4 to over the Turkish government for what they had done to
5 my people and --
6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: We talked about
7 that then, that's what it is?
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
9 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: It's (inaudible) --
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes, I believe, that would be
11 the number one because I remember as a young man I was
12 just like I can't believe these people just don't have
13 the audacity to apologize for doing such a terrible
14 thing to the Armenian people or --
15 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: How did Houses of
16 Healing help you -- help you frame that issue?
17 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: (Inaudible) -- we (inaudible)
18 out of me that I -- that I realized that this was a
19 major issue that led to the point of the crime,
20 childhood influences that these traumas I suffered and
21 the dead bodies I saw as a child in Lebanon, the
22 children and the women and that I kept thinking, oh,
23 this is what they did my people. This is what they did
24 my people.
25 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Um-hmm.
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1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- and I -- and that I didn't
2 understand the impact of it. But until -- you know,
3 until I deeply thought that childhood influences that
4 led -- that was all part of the reason that led me to
5 commit murder -- crime of murder. That and so we would
6 looked in the Houses of Healing in depth that all
7 this -- that all the different about forgiveness and
8 about making amends. And I realized also that I haven't
9 forgive to myself not only for not -- for murdering
10 Mr. Arikan, but also putting my mother through all this,
11 you know, true trauma because she's been deemed
12 depression. You know, she cries every time I call her
13 because, you know, she keeps wanting to know when you
14 coming home and I, you know, I looked at all these
15 issues in depth. I think I had 14, 13 different issues
16 that I wrote a
17 book -- a book report about it, but I'll read it if you
18 want me but --
19 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: That's okay. So
20 what's your understanding of this concept of this word
21 insight? What is your understanding of that word?
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Insight, Commissioner --
23 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: And when I say
24 insight, I'm talking about (inaudible) purposes into the
25 life crime.
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1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I think insight to me means
2 that do I understand what I did and what led me to
3 commit the cruel crime of murder.
4 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Yeah.
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: And do I understand the
6 consequences of it. And I believe that I do and the one
7 thing that I -- that if I can add that I -- this is my
8 Fifth Parole Hearing and I had four Commissioners and
9 five Psych Reports and no Commissioner has ever said
10 that I lacked insight or I lack remorse or I lacked
11 compassion. And I believe that I do understand exactly
12 what led me to commit murder and what I did that
13 (inaudible), I do understand that, Commissioner.
14 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay.
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: And it will never happen
16 again.
17 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Tell me about the
18 NVC, the non-violent communication class.
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Non-violent communication
20 class is that classes are here in the Catholic church,
21 Commissioner, and what I got the most from there is
22 about web of relationships. That's the topic that just
23 kept --
24 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: What's it called?
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Web of relationships.
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1 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Web of
2 relationships?
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes. About --
4 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: (Inaudible)?
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: It's about community and
6 about family and about friendships and about victim --
7 and victim and the offender. That we had lot of people
8 that were victims of crimes that came and gave us
9 speeches and talked about -- to us about forgiveness and
10 it was deeply touching to me, because (inaudible). You
11 know, I did learn from -- a lot from it, you know.
12 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay. You took --
13 you also took an anger management class?
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
15 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: How many sessions
16 was that?
17 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: How many what?
18 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Sessions was that
19 class? Do you remember? (Inaudible).
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Was it 28 maybe?
21 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay. So
22 (inaudible) --
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Was it 48? I forgot.
24 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: What'd you get out
25 of the anger management class?
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1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Well, that's one thing that
2 also I realized that all that anger that I kept inside,
3 all that anger that built inside of me was -- played a
4 big part into me rationalizing violence and murder, that
5 anger -- I used anger instead of -- instead of talking
6 about anger, instead of sharing that with people. I
7 used that anger as energy to excuse my crime and excuse
8 my behavior and my bad decisions and including --
9 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: If you could go
10 back, what would the 53-year-old Sassounian tell a
11 19-year-old Sassounian? I mean what --
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I'd tell him -- I'd tell
13 get -- I'd tell him what the hell, are you doing? What
14 are you doing? What do you -- you're going to go commit
15 murder, are you serious? I will grab him and take him
16 back home and I'll probably spank him because that's --
17 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: I'm not advocating
18 corporal punishment (inaudible).
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I know, I'm just --
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Got to stop your
21 violence, I'm going to --
22 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Yeah. That's
23 the ---
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I'm sorry. Maybe I shouldn't
25 have put it that way.
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1 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: No --
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: It's like you --
3 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: (Inaudible).
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: But --
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Stop violence --
6 to get you to stop your violence.
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: This is the (inaudible).
8 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: (Inaudible), think
9 it's a death penalty (inaudible).
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No. No I mean --
11 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Each of you is
12 trying to kill by killing --
13 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I mean, Mr. Commissioner,
14 it's just so painful for me and I know I'll get
15 passionate because it's just this thing is like -- I
16 still sometimes as I think that I'm just can't believe
17 that I --
18 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Passion is not a
19 bad thing.
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: It's not -- it's not. But
21 what I'm saying is that I get loud and I'm sorry about
22 that. That's what I mean that I don't mean to be loud.
23 I wish I can speak like Commissioner Montes, low and so
24 clear but I get passionate because I am ashamed, I am
25 deeply disappointed in myself and not only -- I mean my
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1 crime has so many victims, not only Arikan -- Mr. Arikan
2 and their family. I wish you could -- I could call my
3 mom right now. She would immediately go in tears and
4 that's very heartbreaking for me. And I know this is
5 the what I did to my mother, I also did to Mr. Arikan's
6 wife. That I put them through the same pain and what do
7 I have to show for it? I got nothing to show for it.
8 None. Not one positive thing I can say about it. So I
9 am deeply disappointed in myself and now I know that
10 anger is what -- is part of the major reason that led me
11 to do this. Now, when I get angry, Commissioner, I go
12 talk a walk on the yard. When I get angry, I talk to
13 somebody. I'll talk to my cellie. Me and my cellie, we
14 both in groups. We get upset at each other sometimes.
15 And we don't told it in. We immediately talk about it.
16 All right. cellie, I'm sorry. Bum. It's over with.
17 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: I don't know if we
18 ever talked about it but were drugs and/or alcohol
19 involved in the life crime at all?
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: No.
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No. No.
22 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: You said no.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: We did -- we did
24 talk about it.
25 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay. You told us
Northern California Court Reporters 206
1 about your drinking and you very rarely and you didn't
2 do drugs either. Have you ever considered taking NA or
3 AA?
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I did take NA and AA at CMC
5 and did it for a year or so.
6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Did you get
7 anything of it?
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. My first reaction to
9 AA was in CMC when somebody do AA and I go I'm not
10 alcoholic, what the hell do I need that for? And then
11 his name was Roger (phonetic), and he said -- he said,
12 hey, it's not just about alcohol, this is a lifestyle.
13 This is way of life. And so, I started going and at one
14 point I had the whole thing memorized in my brain. I
15 know that's not a big deal but it's -- this is -- my
16 life is going to be based on this now because it's about
17 remorse and about compassion, about insight, and I
18 believe it's about doing good in community and that's
19 what my life is going to be. And so, I love it and I
20 get (inaudible) and all -- every step has -- it's in --
21 it's in -- it's in its place and out of my life.
22 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Uh-huh.
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: And one part of -- the tenth
24 amendment about everyday to check myself. The tenth --
25 the tenth step of -- I forget exactly what it says
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1 but --
2 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Do you remember
3 when you were taking AA or NA did they ever talk about
4 character defects?
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Absolutely, yes.
6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Did you ever
7 identify any of your character defects?
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
9 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: What'd you come up
10 with?
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: My character defect,
12 Commissioner, was anger, resentments, my biggest one is
13 that I just held it in, I just not -- would not talk
14 about it. I'd --
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Was it --
16 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- holding it in.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- hold in.
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Not go on to talk about it.
19 If I only had went to somebody before committing of this
20 murder, talk to somebody about it, somebody would, you
21 know --
22 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Were you religious
23 back then? Did you have a priest or somebody you could
24 talk to?
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No.
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1 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: No? You have
2 nobody?
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No.
4 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Not anyone?
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I have no priest, no
6 girlfriend, just a crime partner that's all I had.
7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Just a what?
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Just a crime partner who was
9 screwed up more than I was. A crime partner.
10 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: What is that?
11 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: Crime partner.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: If --
13 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Oh, crime partner.
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: (Inaudible).
15 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: Crime partner.
16 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay. I thought
17 you were saying --
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Who was screwed
19 up more than you were; or is that possible?
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: About the same as much as I
21 was.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Is that possible?
23 Is that possible?
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Now, I -- now, I think about
25 it. And now that you asked me the question, apparently
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1 it was because we both did the unforgiveable thing of
2 committing murder. so I don't know what anything could
3 be worse than that, so.
4 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: You were clearly on
5 the same page and it's a very, very bad page --
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: I'm just
7 saying --
8 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- you know.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- why was he
10 worse than you?
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Oh, well, maybe I should have
12 put it -- phrased it --
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: About the gun --
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- different. Yeah.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- that you
16 wanted to pay for?
17 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah, I mean, he ----
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: It's --
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- you know, he would not
20 be -- you know, what he did and what I did is mostly
21 less than what I -- what we both did because we both
22 made a terrible decision to commit murder. And then,
23 you know, if he hadn't got the gun, I would have went
24 and bought the gun from somebody if wasn't able to get
25 it. So in other words, you know, the point -- that's
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1 like a technical think comparing to what we were doing.
2 If he wasn't able to go get the gun, I would have went
3 and bought some guns from somewhere, you know, to do the
4 same thing.
5 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay. Let's -- any
6 more programming you want to talk about before we --
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Can we go back to
8 the character defects for a second?
9 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay. Sure.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: So if you had to
11 put a label on your unwillingness or inability to seek
12 help, what would you label that as in terms of character
13 defects? What would you call that?
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: What first -- what comes on
15 my mind is the, you know, is I was stupid, you know.
16 But I think the better phrase would be that I made bad
17 decisions. I made the wrong choices.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Well, maybe you
19 were prideful -- too prideful?
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Oh, I was too prideful
21 because I would not -- because to me, asking somebody
22 for help was weakness at the time. I was too, you know,
23 I was in -- I was in denial. I was just --
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Aren't you still
25 doing the same thing, not asking somebody to help you
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1 with your college classes? Not be willing to do that?
2 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Well, besides the more
3 important thing to me is I just -- I just don't have
4 the -- the love to do that, Commissioner. I have always
5 said that studying, going to school is, you know, is my
6 fault. It's my bad choice. It's -- I just don't like
7 going to school. I just much -- I'd rather dig a tunnel
8 from either China than go to school for five months.
9 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: (Inaudible) in
10 here? That's a -- that's a poor analogy.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: That's a bad
12 idea.
13 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Right?
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I got to watch words a little
15 more. I'm sorry.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Yeah.
17 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: All you got to
18 remember where you're at.
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Oh, yeah. We're at San
20 Quentin (inaudible).
21 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Right. Right.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Maybe to
23 Alcatraz --
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. I --
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- not China.
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1 It's --
2 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I'm sorry.
3 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: No. I'm just --
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: So in terms of
5 the character defects, so what -- have you do anything
6 to overcome those character defects and what have you
7 done? What --
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes, I have, Commissioner, it
9 is that to live a life of peace and integrity, that if I
10 need help to seek it -- to seek help when I -- when I am
11 doubtful about something, I'm not sure about something
12 to ask for advice. It's simple and it's -- I know a lot
13 of people -- there is a lot of good people in the world
14 and the people will help, people will give you -- give
15 directions. And then, you know, back then, I didn't get
16 it. I get it. It's so easy to do, you know. And I
17 have -- I know how to deal with my character defects and
18 that's walk away, listen to music, pray and meditate,
19 and keep going into groups, do the steps. I mean there
20 is hundred things to do, you know, than do the wrong
21 things, you know. And, you know, and now, you know,
22 before like you could see my file the -- well, I started
23 my time, you know, what is the six out of the -- four of
24 the six 115s I got is refusing direct order. The
25 officer would say go to school. I say I don't care, I'm
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1 not going. I mean back then, I just -- I just didn't
2 care. Now, the CO -- the CO in my building,
3 Commissioner, that is known -- he knows everybody. He
4 was like the main guy that searched cells. I was in
5 that building for three years and I was on the tier, and
6 he saw me, he goes what are you doing here? I said that
7 I'm going to the cell. He said do you live in this
8 building? And I go yeah. I've been living in this
9 building for three years. The one CO that knows
10 everybody in the building, Commissioner, did not know I
11 was on -- and his office is right below me -- he did not
12 even know I was in that building. In other words, what
13 I'm saying is that I follow the rules now. I follow the
14 program. I don't piss off the CO's. I don't piss of my
15 superior, supervisors. I don't piss off inmates. I
16 just do my thing. I live and do my thing my own -- I
17 mind my own business. I don't get on people's nerve. I
18 don't clown with people. I don't say nothing silly. I
19 just -- I just live my life. And that's why I am
20 prepared to do. I want -- I want to have peace in my
21 mind and I want make amends and I want to do good that I
22 can prove to you and everybody in my family and to Mark,
23 he has been helping me for 20 years now. He's tired.
24 He wants to see me get out and do good. And I want to
25 prove to him that I can do good. That I can be a good
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1 citizen, a law-abiding citizen, and I can be a husband
2 and a father. That I can do good, that violence and
3 every -- anything to do with -- anything dishonorable I
4 will not be part of. That I can make it in life, I know
5 I can.
6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: We don't want to
7 get into your closing statement. You'll have an
8 opportunity to do that.
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. I'm a -- I'm a talker,
10 Commissioner, I'm sorry. That's why my parole meetings
11 last five hours. I'm sorry.
12 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Well, it's --
13 you're here -- we're here to hear your (inaudible).
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Or more like six
15 hours.
16 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: So.
17 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I know -- I know.
18 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: All right. So then
19 let's -- if there's no more programming, if we talked
20 about all that, then I want to talk about your parole
21 plans.
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I just -- yeah, I just want
23 to say, Commissioner, this -- I wish that these
24 self-help groups -- well, I wish we had them at Level IV
25 where I -- where I could -- I could've avoided so many
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1 115s and I could've been a much better person all those
2 years than I was, you know, if I had these self-help --
3 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Yeah. They're
4 working on it now, they're trying to --
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Definitely --
6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- get programming.
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- I'm working and I'm not
8 going to fail, Commissioner.
9 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Um-hmm.
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: That's a promise to me and to
11 every -- to you and to my mother and Mark and everybody
12 else.
13 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: I --
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I will not fail.
15 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: I also want to
16 mention that you did have you some -- you had some
17 laudatory chronos for some pro-social activities, the
18 Kit-Kat Hygiene Drive --
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
20 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- (inaudible), so
21 that's social --
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
23 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- prosocial
24 activity. So support letters, you have a lot of support
25 letters and I'm going -- I'm going to talk about in
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1 particular order. You have one from a niece, Merale
2 (phonetic) --
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
4 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- and
5 Jackie Hossain (phonetic).
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay. What's her
8 last name?
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah, Jadakrushian
10 (phonetic), yeah.
11 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Jadakrushian?
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
13 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: So she's your
14 niece?
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
16 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Where does she
17 live?
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: She lives in Monrovia.
19 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Monrovia?
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
21 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Right.
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: She just had a baby -- a
23 beautiful baby.
24 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: So she says if
25 you're released -- when you're released, they'd love to
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1 have you come live with them. They're offering you a
2 home.
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
4 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: They don't think
5 you're a threat to society. A positive role model. You
6 have a support letter from Ida Carrion (phonetic).
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
8 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: That's a family
9 child individual, a psychotherapist?
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
11 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: How do you know --
12 how do you know Ida?
13 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I don't know her personally.
14 My family went to her and talked to her. I think she's
15 a doctor, I believe.
16 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: She knows you
17 through your family?
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
19 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay.
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. I don't think I met
21 her personally.
22 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: So it appears to be
23 just a general support letter. She'd be willing to
24 engage you in diagnosis and assessment and treatment.
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
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1 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: And then you'd get
2 a bed and healthy transition back into society.
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
4 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: And some job offers
5 you were talking about. Around the Clock Cleaners,
6 that's a job --
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
8 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- offer. And
9 where is that? Is that down in the valley? In
10 Pasadena?
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
12 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: And then the
13 restaurant job we talked about that, the Corner Café?
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
15 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Otto Hastian
16 (phonetic)?
17 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Houstain (phonetic), I
18 believe, yes.
19 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Right. A family
20 restaurant, give you 40-hour job, 12.25 an hour. Job
21 offer laying carpet at Carpet Wagon?
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes. My niece is the manager
23 there I believe, yes. Caroline Sassounian, I believe.
24 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: This is signed by
25 Ott --
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1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes. He's the owner, yes.
2 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay. A job offer
3 as a food processor at Hye, H-Y-E, Cuisine?
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes. That's in Fresno in
5 case I end up going there.
6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay. And then --
7 so those look like parole plans for California. And
8 your --
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
10 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Your attorney
11 already put on the record what the plan was --
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
13 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- if you stay, you
14 go, you --
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
16 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- (inaudible).
17 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Also --
18 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- what we
19 recommend.
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes. I also have re-entry
21 homes, two letters from re-entry homes.
22 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Yeah, I have those.
23 It's - you have Francisco Homes --
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
25 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- a recent letter
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1 and they've accepted you. Which is your first choice?
2 This is the one in Los Angeles.
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: You mean as far as Armenia
4 and Los Angeles?
5 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: No. But if you're
6 in -- if you're in California?
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner, I thought about
8 that. I thank you for asking -- I thought about that a
9 lot as you know I'm 52 years old and now almost going on
10 35 years in prison. And (inaudible) -- you know, I
11 think it would a great leap from not having anything
12 such as freedom and, you know, being out in society for
13 three decades into all a sudden being out there. I
14 think that's a big leap. I think I'd rather go to the
15 transitional house --
16 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: That's a good idea,
17 I'm just asking you which is your preference because --
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: The transitional.
19 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: In LA?
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
21 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: I mean the
22 Francisco Homes?
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Either one would be good,
24 Commissioner.
25 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: What was the other
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1 one?
2 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I think the other one is
3 Complete Control and I'm hearing that they're very, very
4 tough on the -- to be honest, I'd rather go to the
5 really tough one than the one that is not as tough.
6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: (Inaudible).
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Which one is
8 that?
9 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: I don't remember
10 seeing it.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: What is it
12 called?
13 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: It's called Complete Control.
14 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Is that part of
15 your packet --
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Commissioner, I
17 did see that.
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: I did see it.
20 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay.
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I believe it's in here
22 somewhere. Now, I got to find it.
23 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay. We will find
24 it. All right. So that's your transitional housing and
25 then we already talked about -- you staying in
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1 transitional six months, 12 months, two years, and then
2 you would go to one of your relatives that we talked
3 about?
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
5 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay. Anything
6 else before we move on to your Armenia plans?
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I think that's -- I think I
8 got two, three places to stay and two, three jobs.
9 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: No. Is that -- is
10 that it -- is that it for California plans before we
11 move to the Armenia?
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No. No. No. I'm sorry.
13 No.
14 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: That's it?
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
16 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay. So parole
17 plans, Armenia are primary housing you might have to
18 help with this -- Thomas Dewey (phonetic) and
19 Jerar Kusahian (phonetic)?
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Oh yeah. Yeah. They're in
21 Armenia. They are my cousins.
22 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay. They live in
23 the --
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: In Yerevan, in Armenia's
25 capital.
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1 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Yerevan? Okay.
2 And you would work as a cook?
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
4 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: At some restaurant
5 there?
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes. I think there's like
7 two of them. Yes.
8 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: And you have a
9 psychologist lined up that would assist you?
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
11 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay.
12 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: I'll find it.
13 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: It's okay. If it's
14 in here, I'll find it.
15 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: Okay.
16 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: You don't have to
17 find it. So you do have numerous job offers in Armenia,
18 restaurant job offers. We'll look at those.
19 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: Just for the record, it looks
20 like it's the third page.
21 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay.
22 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: (Inaudible). Yes.
23 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: And then -- so you
24 have numerous job offers and they -- and someone sent
25 you -- your Consul General sent a copy of your
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1 passport --
2 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
3 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: So you have a valid
4 passport.
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: And you have a
7 number of support letters, and you mentioned this
8 earlier, which is unusual, this is the actual -- it's on
9 the letterhead of a retired superior court judge who was
10 a trial court judge in your --
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: A judge --
12 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Judge Nelson.
13 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. Henry Nelson. Yes.
14 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Henry Patrick
15 Nelson and he speaks to what I believe to what I believe
16 to be the Youth Offender factors.
17 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
18 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: I'm sure your
19 attorney has discussed that with you. He just basically
20 talked about you being a immature lad, easily led under
21 the pressure of historical events, no ability to
22 process. So that's where Youth Offender factors have
23 come in and we will discuss that during deliberations.
24 We're basically talking about diminished culpability of
25 youths, about the male brain not fully developing until
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1 mid 20s, 25, 26. We're talking about hallmark features
2 of youth, susceptibility to gang influence, or in this
3 case, on political issues that swept you up. And then
4 we talk about growth and maturity while in prison. So
5 that's -- we'll be looking at that as the
6 Commissioner --
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Okay.
8 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- told you. But
9 that's a pretty impressive -- we don't see that very
10 often where you -- where you get a support letter from a
11 trial --
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: From the judge --
13 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- judge.
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. My sentencing judge.
15 Yes.
16 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Even more -- even
17 more --
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
19 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: You have a support
20 letter from the Archbishop of the Western Diocese of the
21 Armenian Church in North --
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
23 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- America.
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
25 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: A general support
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1 letter. A support letter from the Armenian Apostolic
2 Church of America.
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
4 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Archbishop
5 Hovsepian --
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- a general
8 support letter. Then we have one from your mother. And
9 your mother is -- she's 86?
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
11 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay. And
12 apparently, it was written by a friend that -- a
13 friend --
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. My --
15 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- (inaudible).
16 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- I think my sister-in-law
17 wrote it.
18 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Angela Sassounian?
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Sassounian? Yeah. That's my
20 sister-in-law.
21 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: All right. So
22 since it's your mom, I'm going to read it verbatim. "My
23 name is Georgette Sassounian, the mother of
24 Hampig Sassounian. I am 86 years old. Thirty-four
25 years ago my son committed a terrible act of murdering
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1 Kemal Arikan, a father and husband. Years ago, my son
2 shared his feelings with me and told me how regretful he
3 is for what he did. He made a promise to me that he
4 will never harm anyone again. I do believe my son
5 because he has never broken his promise to me, but
6 mostly because he does understand the damage, pain, and
7 suffering that can come from violence and violence does
8 not pay, it never has. My hope and prayer is that you,
9 too, will see my son's transformation into the mature
10 and responsible man he's become. May God bless you in
11 your decision." And then she signed it with her mark.
12 All right. So that's a pretty -- a pretty intense
13 letter from your mother.
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Right.
15 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: And the fact that
16 you've never lied to her, that's pretty impressive, too.
17 I wish I could say that.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Did you tell her
19 from the beginning that you committed this crime? Did
20 you -- did you tell her the truth about the crime when
21 you first did it?
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes. I did but not in the
23 beginning. For the -- for the first few years,
24 Commissioner, I did not tell nobody about that -- that I
25 even did this, you know. I just did not --
Northern California Court Reporters 228
1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: What did you tell
2 her about why you were incarcerated?
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Oh, I mean, no, she knows
4 what I'm incarcerated but I did not admit to her that I
5 did -- I did commit the crime.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Oh.
7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: That seems
8 backwards because this is something you felt compelled
9 to do, and it sounds like it was something that I did
10 it, and I've seen more than one account that they asked
11 you, would you do it again? You go, yeah, I'd do it
12 again. So if that's how you felt about it, why wouldn't
13 you tell your mom, I did it? I felt I had to do it for
14 the Armenian people or whatever your reasons were.
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Because I was too embarrassed
16 to admit to her that, you know, that her son was -- he
17 was somebody that would commit murder. I was just too
18 embarrassed to look in her eye and tell her that.
19 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Did you think about
20 that before you did it, though?
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Before I did it,
22 Commissioner, I wouldn't have cared about nothing. I
23 was --
24 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Not even your mom?
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- I was -- I was too angry.
Northern California Court Reporters 229
1 I wouldn't have cared if you had told me that I was
2 going to die that day, I'd probably wouldn't have cared.
3 I was that angry. I just lost all my sense of common --
4 my sense of common sense, Commissioner. I just --
5 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay. And then you
6 have a letter from your brother, Ara, A-R-A, Ara?
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes, Ara. Yeah.
8 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: All right. Now, I
9 remember his name because didn't you come home and he
10 wanted to wear your vest and he --
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
12 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- put your vest
13 on, the one you were wearing at the time of the life
14 crime?
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. Yeah.
16 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: And the police --
17 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- stupid. Commissioner, and
18 I -- without even thinking that I was just wearing the
19 jacket at the crime scene. I just told him wear --he
20 could wear it. You know, I just -- I didn't even think
21 what the consequences of that could've been.
22 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: So is this brother
23 successful? Is --
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. He's -- yeah, he
25 works -- he works a s jeweler.
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1 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: And what's his age
2 in relation to yours? Is he -- he's a younger brother;
3 right?
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: He's two years younger than
5 me, Ara.
6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: And your other
7 brother? He -- the older --
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: The older one that did the --
9 did the firebombing, he passed away in 2009. My oldest
10 brother is about 60 years old now.
11 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: How's he doing?
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Last time I heard, he was not
13 working but he was driving my uncle, you know, he was
14 old, he can't go nowhere. He was helping him go, you
15 know --
16 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: So yeah, it said
17 you and three brothers? You and --
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: We were four brothers once.
19 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- brothers
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: One passed away and my --
21 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Is it fair to say
22 that two of you really got caught up in this Armenian
23 issue and then the other two didn't? Because two ended
24 up -- I mean committing crimes behind it and the other
25 two didn't? They productive citizens --
Northern California Court Reporters 231
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Well, I know they didn't
2 commit no crime because, you know, because they
3 lacked -- you know, they're both against it. When, you
4 know -- when I first came in -- when I was arrested, you
5 know, they -- not this youngest one but my brothers --
6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: But they were
7 subjective to the same life you were, the same
8 lifestyle; right?
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner, a hundred
10 percent. The exact same thing but the difference with
11 me is that they dealt with their anger and their
12 resentments rationally and they did it the right way.
13 And I couldn't --
14 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Skills you didn't
15 have?
16 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Me, I couldn't do it,
17 Commissioner. I was too prideful and that I just would
18 not swallow my pride and thinking that I can't let these
19 people get away with this. And I was just -- could not
20 let it go.
21 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay. And then a
22 letter from your --I think it's your niece, Carolyn
23 (phonetic) --
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Sakhian (phonetic). Yeah.
25 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Sakhian?
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1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
2 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: A general support
3 letter and -- appears to a general support letter.
4 Sister-in-law, married to your brother, Ara's wife?
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. Yes, Angela
6 (phonetic). Yeah.
7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: A general support
8 letter. Nephew, Sevaga (phonetic) Sassounian.
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Serrea (phonetic). That's my
10 brother's son. That's my nephew.
11 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay. A general
12 support letter, saying you're much -- you're a loving
13 man, you're much wiser today. He's proud of who you
14 are. Nephew Shat (phonetic).
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Shauntik (phonetic). Yeah.
16 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Shauntik? A
17 general support letter. And then one from your niece,
18 Soline (phonetic)?
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Soline, yeah.
20 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Soline? A general
21 support letter. All right. So you've got a lot of
22 family support. You got support from the church. You
23 have parole plans for Armenia. You have parole plans
24 for California, however, it ended up playing out.
25 You've also submitted -- I mean you got transitional
Northern California Court Reporters 233
1 housing. You have places to stay. You submitted a
2 remorse letter. Is this to -- is that the wife and the
3 daughter?
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes. Oh, yes.
5 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: All right.
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: That's dated March
8 of this year, a letter of remorse. So you know, they
9 have the right to be here today if they wanted to be
10 here; right?
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
12 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: If they were
13 sitting over here, what do you -- what do you tell them?
14 I mean is there anything you could tell him about --
15 when they ask you why their husband was executed,
16 assassinated? Why their father was assassinated?
17 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner, I would tell
18 them that their husband was executed because I was
19 stupid, because I didn't -- I didn't -- because I
20 wasn't -- I didn't have the sense to solve a problem
21 peacefully. That I was a coward for killing their
22 husband, their father, who was unarmed and who was just
23 doing his job of serving his people and his government.
24 That I was -- that I was -- they (inaudible) me what I
25 did. That what I -- what I did was inexcusable. That
Northern California Court Reporters 234
1 their husband didn't do nothing to deserve what I did to
2 him. That they -- they're all false and I would admit
3 that how deeply sorry I am. That bringing nightmare to
4 their life, so much pain in their life, and
5 destroying -- you know, taking their pillar of their
6 family, murdering their pillar of their family, that how
7 sorry I am and that how regretful I am. I wish I could
8 change things. That it was all my fault --
9 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: But you can't go
10 back and change things. You can't go back and redo the
11 life crime.
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
13 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: But what's the best
14 you can do for them?
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Well, the best I can do,
16 Commissioner, is live a life of peace, exemplary life of
17 peace, and then I can the rest of my life preach against
18 violence and do what I can to make amends, to help
19 whoever I can.
20 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Okay. All right.
21 And you have submitted some parole plans we'll read and
22 living amends, and you have a -- you wrote insight --
23 inmate essay on insight that we'll read and consider,
24 crime impact statement. Did you prepare a Relapse
25 Prevention Plan? I thought I saw that in here?
Northern California Court Reporters 235
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Did I what?
2 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: A Relapse
3 Prevention Plan, did you prepare one of those --
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
5 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- I don't --
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I got one in here. Yes.
7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: I don't need to see
8 it, but what is it -- I just want you to talk about it.
9 What is it, first of all, that you are --you're trying
10 to prevent?
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: From becoming a -- living a
12 criminal lifestyle. That to be a good citizen, to obey
13 the laws of the country, and to respect all human life
14 no matter what they think and how they -- what their
15 points of view is different from me. That, you know,
16 they have a right to have their point of view. That I
17 have no right to resort to violence. So therefore, I'm
18 not -- there's going to be non-violence. There's not
19 going to be no relapse in my life.
20 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Let's say that --
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: He wrote one for
22 anger, I believe, and one for judgment, you called it --
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I'm sorry --
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- to do with
25 anger and judgment.
Northern California Court Reporters 236
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Wasn't that your
3 Relapse Prevention Plan?
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah, I --
5 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: (Inaudible).
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- those are my -- yeah,
7 those are my triggers and stuff that's what I would do
8 if I was upset, it's in the back on the -- on the third
9 page back here.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Yes.
11 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Yeah. Yeah. I see
12 the one that says Relapse Prevention Plan. In case I
13 need help, I believe it'd help me. So let's talk about
14 if you got a date and you're on the street, what are
15 your issues or concerns about anything that could
16 potentially send you back to prison?
17 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Well, the -- my (inaudible)
18 of -- for concern would be to have bad people around me,
19 people who support violence, and that's not going happen
20 because I'm not going to hang around with people like
21 that. I'm going to hang around with a woman. I'm going
22 to hang with my mother and sister. And I'm going to
23 hang around with people who are much, much older than me
24 that's -- that made it in life that are businessmen and
25 a whole family man, that they -- that they don't get
Northern California Court Reporters 237
1 in -- people that don't get in trouble. I'm going to
2 hang around with them. The other -- the other thing is
3 that might be -- the question was -- I'm sorry, the --
4 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: The question?
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: If you got a date
7 and you're on the street, what would you be worried or
8 concerned about --
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Oh, yeah.
10 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- that could send
11 you back --
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Uh-huh.
13 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: --to prison.
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I'm sorry. The other thing
15 would be like see -- having guns around, and that's not
16 going to happen because no matter where I stay, it's not
17 going to have no guns there --
18 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: If it's in
19 California, you're not, you know (inaudible) --
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner --
21 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- (inaudible).
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- then I'm going to stay in
23 the relapse prevention home then until I find a home
24 with -- where there is no gun. And I believe none of my
25 nieces got guns, you know, that I'm pretty sure --
Northern California Court Reporters 238
1 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: You understand that
2 if you're on parole in California as a -- as a felon,
3 you're not allowed to own or --
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I know that.
5 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- (inaudible).
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I know. I'm not going to own
7 a gun, Commissioner; you can believe that. I'm not even
8 going to own a baseball bat, believe -- you can believe
9 that. And the third thing would be, Commissioner, I
10 think that that might be -- you know, seeing, you
11 know -- you know, like we see today, you know, women and
12 children suffering in Syria and in other places that
13 might be -- you know, that might be something that I
14 would -- it would move me. And any situations like
15 that, no matter, if it's bad people, no matter if it's
16 guns or seeing anything that affects me, touches me
17 deeply, then I'm just going, you know, go talk to people
18 about it, and just stay away from it, and stop watching
19 the news or whatever it is that I got to do, so not to
20 focus on that. Now, I know that I got the tools not to
21 go to same road that I've done before, you know.
22 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: All right. So I
23 think that's it for your parole plans both in California
24 and Armenia. There was -- there was opposition to your
25 parole. There was a lengthy 12-page letter in
Northern California Court Reporters 239
1 opposition to parole from Serdar, S-E-R-D-A-R, Kilic. I
2 hope I'm pronouncing that right. It's K-I-L-I-C. He's
3 an Ambassador from Turkey. He wrote a 12-page letter
4 with attachments opposing your parole. We also have the
5 District Attorney -- Deputy District Attorney from the
6 County of Los Angeles who we will be hearing from about
7 their position on parole. I don't know if there's any
8 other opposition letters that I saw. Well, there is a
9 letter from Professor F-E-Y-Z-I-O-G-L-U. I believe
10 that's also in opposition to your parole. I don't know
11 how to pronounce that last name. But there's -- he's
12 a -- he appears to be the President of the Union of
13 Turkish Bar Associations. He writes a letter in
14 opposition to your parole. Did you notice any other --
15 letters of opposition? I didn't see any other ones.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: I think that's --
17 those are the only ones I've read.
18 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: All right. Those
19 are your post-conviction factors. We talked about your
20 education and it sounds like you're done with attempt at
21 college. That's -- it is what it is. We talked about
22 your work history solid, you got vocational training.
23 Your disciplinary record overall is not too bad. We
24 talked about your programming. You have parole plans
25 for California and Armenia, whatever happens, which
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1 would include support letters from family members in
2 both places, job offers, and transitional housing at
3 least here in California. Anything that got left out?
4 We were talking about basically what you've done since
5 your last hearing, 2015. Anything get left out?
6 Understanding that if it's in your Central File, it'll
7 be looked at and considered. Anything else that you
8 think it's important that we didn't talk about?
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I think -- I think it's --
10 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: No. I think other than the --
11 I don't know if we mentioned it or missed it, the threat
12 assessment which was the lowest, and also --
13 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: The Risk
14 Assessment? She does that.
15 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: The Risk Assessment.
16 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: She does that.
17 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: Okay.
18 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: That's not part of
19 parole plans.
20 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: Okay.
21 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: That's -- the
22 Commissioner will talk about that specifically. All
23 right then, Commissioner?
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: All right. Thank
25 you. Okay. Are you okay?
Northern California Court Reporters 241
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. I'm good. My --
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- throat is kind of dry
4 and is --
5 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: You need water?
6 Can we get him some?
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Can you?
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: This is -- yeah, thank you.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: All right. Let's
10 move on to the Comprehensive Risk Assessment. There has
11 been a new assessment since the last hearing. It's
12 dated September 12th, 2016, authored by Dr. B. Spain and
13 Dr. Spain is a -- I'm sorry, is than a man or woman?
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: A man.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: A man?
16 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. Okay. So
18 Dr. Spain covers a lot of the -- a lot of what we have
19 covered already. I just want to point out a few things
20 which we should probably underscore. You've talked at
21 length about some of the connection between your
22 childhood and adolescence that may have led you to
23 become the person that would commit this crime, and we
24 talked about that at length, I think, so I'm not going
25 to go into that here. The doctor does point out on page
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1 8 that you meet the diagnosis for an unspecified
2 personality disorder with obsessive and antisocial
3 traits. But you do not have a substance disorder
4 diagnosis for substance -- any type of substance abuse.
5 And we covered all of your vocations and your self-help
6 and your parole plans we've gone into, I think, at
7 length. One of the things I wanted to ask you about,
8 and it's not here in the -- in the Psych Report, but I
9 did read in the Internet where you had received about
10 250 thousand dollars for legal support for legal fees,
11 at least that's -- if you believe everything that's on
12 the Internet, and I just wondered how you felt about
13 that. It talks about how, after Hampig Sassounian was
14 found guilty of murdering the Turkish consul in Los
15 Angeles in 1982, Bishop Yeprem Tabakian --
16 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: Bishop Tabakian.
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- Tabakian, the
18 prelate of the Western United States of the Beirut based
19 branch of the Apostolic Church stated "Hampig's
20 conviction is an inditement directed against all
21 Armenians." And then Archbishop Hovsepian added, "I'm
22 truly shocked about the verdict." George Mason
23 (phonetic), a modern publisher of the California Courier
24 concluded, "There are many Armenian-Americans in
25 California who feel great sympathy and support for
Northern California Court Reporters 243
1 Armenian terrorists. I have talked to numerous
2 peaceful, fair, and thoughtful men who have expressed
3 support for the terrorists," and this article goes on to
4 state that a campaign to provide funds for Sassounian's
5 defense raised 250 thousand dollars in small donations
6 from Armenian-Americans throughout the United States.
7 And that was according to Michael Gunter in an article
8 titled, Pursuing the Just Cause of Their People: A Study
9 of Contemporary Armenian Terrorism on page -- I think
10 like maybe it's a booklet --
11 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: Michael Gunter is a paid for
12 Turkish hack who goes around -- he's on a -- he was
13 hired by the Association of Turkish Assembly Members --
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: What?
15 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: We need to take a
16 recess.
17 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: -- that's from the Internet --
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: This --
19 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Right now. Right
20 now.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Right now?
22 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Yeah.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: All right. Well,
24 let's take a short recess.
25 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: Yeah. Why don't we found out?
Northern California Court Reporters 244
1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: I just want to
2 know if he knows anything about this and, you know --
3 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: He's going to tell you --
4 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Let's take --
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: That's okay.
6 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- a recess before
7 we answer that. Please.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. All right.
9 Let's go --
10 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: What's the date of this
11 article?
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: I don't know?
13 It's just --
14 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Well, we'll talk
15 about it when we come back. It's 2:05.
16 (Off the record.)
17 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: We're back on the
18 record, Commissioner.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: All right. It's
20 2:10 p.m. We're back from a short recess. And I'm
21 going to withdraw the last question. It was a question
22 I had about a comment you made earlier about your niece
23 doing research on the Internet, so --
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Thank you.
25 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Any Internet
Northern California Court Reporters 245
1 article referred to is not --
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Yeah.
3 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- going to be
4 considered.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Because you
6 don't -- you don't have access to it, so we can't --
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I barely know what Internet
8 is, Commissioner.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Yes. Okay.
10 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: (Inaudible) --
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
12 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- if you did
13 (inaudible) --
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: That's a good
15 thing.
16 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- (inaudible).
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: That's a good
18 thing. That's a good thing. And there's -- the
19 question is totally irrelevant anyway.
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Okay.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: But that's what I
22 wanted to confirm is your niece's understanding --
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Okay.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- about that
25 issue. Okay. So --
Northern California Court Reporters 246
1 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: Just so the record is clear --
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Yes.
3 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: -- what he talked about on the
4 Internet --
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Was the --
6 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: -- was the --
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- fire --
8 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: -- was the firebomb.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Right.
10 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: Not what we were talking
11 about. So this is --
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Right.
13 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: -- completely irrelevant. I
14 should also state for the record, I'm familiar with who
15 that person is, a person who writes on the Internet is a
16 paid for -- bought and paid for person who is on a
17 fringed Internet Turkish organization, and any stock or
18 any input that is given by that is highly disturbing
19 given some of the --
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Oh, we're not --
21 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: -- some of the things --
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: We're --
23 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: -- about --
24 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: We're not going to
25 consider it.
Northern California Court Reporters 247
1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- It's totally
2 irrelevant. We're not going to even --
3 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: It's not going to
4 be considered.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- consider it.
6 It's neither here nor there. It's not (inaudible).
7 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: I couldn't agree more.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: It's totally
9 irrelevant, but I just wanted to explain to
10 Mr. Sassounian, I was trying to confirm there is nothing
11 on the Internet with respect to the firebombing --
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Okay.
13 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- issue. And
14 that just popped up. Okay. So let's move on. We were
15 talking about the Risk Assessment on page 13 of 21. You
16 went -- you went into detailed description with the
17 clinician about your account of the controlling offense
18 and you talked about that there were Armenians killing
19 Turkish officials in Europe. You made -- that whole
20 conversation that you also covered with us here, so I
21 think that's consistent. So there's -- we also -- she
22 also -- or he, excuse me, also covered the issue of the
23 Armenian Solider newspaper article, and I think that was
24 adequately addressed here as well. The doctor also
25 points out -- she had some -- he had some concerns about
Northern California Court Reporters 248
1 the parole plans in Turkey, asked you the question, what
2 do you think of all the people who used your name to
3 incite violence against Turkey? And your response was,
4 I condemn them. I criticize them. I don't condone
5 violence. They have no right to use my name. They know
6 I am against it. The last violence against Turkish
7 officials was in 1983. Since then, there's been zero
8 violence against Turkish officials and government. I'm
9 glad the new the generation is smarter than I was.
10 Instead of criminals, they are becoming lawyers,
11 doctors. I wish I had the sense to do that when I was
12 young. So when you said they know I'm against it, so
13 how -- what were you referencing there? How do they
14 know?
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Well, I'm assuming that they
16 know it from the Internet, you know, that -- that's what
17 I'm assuming because I don't -- I have been in contact,
18 like eight people, most of them are women from Armenia
19 and from US. I mean, I don't -- I believe that they
20 know, because first of all, there is no violence; we
21 know that already. Second of all, you know, I don't
22 know if -- I forgot the question, I'm sorry. How do I
23 know?
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: How do they know?
25 Because you said they have no right to use my name.
Northern California Court Reporters 249
1 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Because --
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: They know I'm --
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Because --
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- against it.
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Because I'm always speak
6 against it. I did it in the court. I do it at every
7 parole hearing. Anytime anybody asks me in a letter, I
8 tell them -- I tell my family, my visitors, a few
9 friends that come visit me, I tell them. You know,
10 every opportunity I have to preach against violence, I
11 have done it.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. So that's
13 consistent with what you said before about --
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Thank you.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- the statements
16 you've made in court and in your parole hearing. I just
17 wanted to know if there was something else that you had
18 published or some other pronouncement that you had made
19 elsewhere.
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No. I don't believe so. No.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: All right. And
22 we already went over those questions. So the doctor
23 asked you what do you think of the genocide now? And
24 your response was, I think it was a terrible thing to so
25 many women and children. It's their problem. I thought
Northern California Court Reporters 250
1 it was my problem to solve -- to solve it and use
2 violence, a terrible way of thinking. Now, I know it's
3 not my problem. And so, when you go back to -- let's
4 say you did get a parole date and you returned to
5 Armenia --
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- are you going
8 to feel the same way once you're back in that
9 environment and possibly have so many reminders of the
10 history and the -- and the concerns that you had that
11 rose to the level of this crime?
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: There's no doubt about it,
13 Commissioner. I know I'm going to (inaudible). I know
14 nobody's going to influence me, nobody with bad
15 intentions is going to influence me, Commissioner. Of
16 course, in Armenia, there is monuments for the genocide
17 and all that. Of course, I mean I can -- I can deal
18 with it. I'm -- this is not something I obsess with
19 anymore. This is not, you know, I don't go around
20 thinking oh, the Turks killed Armenians and this -- what
21 (inaudible). This is not my problem anymore. The Turks
22 are going to deal with their issue, whatever their --
23 they don't care, it's not their conscience, it's not --
24 they don't have no remorse, it's their problem. I don't
25 care. It's their life. I dealt with my demons,
Northern California Court Reporters 251
1 Commissioner.
2 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm.
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I did my terrible crime, my
4 murdered, I dealt with it. I know how it feels and it
5 took me couple of years, five years, ten years to feel
6 what it -- what that -- what that did to my heart and to
7 my soul. And right now, I feel it. If they don't feel
8 it, I'm not going to educate them. It's their problem.
9 They, you know, they want to deny this, I don't care.
10 They can give a press conference right now, it doesn't
11 matter to me.
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: No. I was just
13 referring to what would your -- I mean do you anticipate
14 any type of emotional response or what do you think?
15 What will you experience when you're -- if you're back
16 in that environment --
17 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Well --
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- that could
19 trigger, you know, some past --
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- memories of --
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Nothing's going to trigger me
23 as far as the genocide, the Armenian Turkish
24 (inaudible). My focus in life is going to marriage and
25 wife and then kids. My priorities are not -- it's
Northern California Court Reporters 252
1 different now. I got -- I got -- I'm thinking about my
2 life, not politics, not violence, now what -- not what
3 they -- what they're doing, what the President of
4 Armenia is planning to do, whatever, whatever, it's not
5 my -- I'm going to focus on me and have a good life, a
6 law-abiding life, get married, have a couple of kids
7 maybe, and then worry about paying my rent, paying on my
8 car. That's what I'm going to (inaudible).
9 Commissioner, I'm not a weak-minded person. I'm not 19
10 years old anymore. I am -- I'm in complete control of
11 myself. I don't make terrible decisions anymore. I'm
12 not influenced because this guy, what they talking about
13 that side, what they talking about this side. This
14 whole yard is full of drugs. This whole yard is full of
15 gangs. I'm not -- I don't go joining them because I'm
16 not trying to impress nobody. I don't want to be like
17 that. I learned my lesson. Oh, I see what my wrong
18 ways have done to me, to the -- to the Mr. Arikan's
19 family, to the community. And I see that that road is
20 not going to be the road I'm ever -- you're ever going
21 to find me on. No matter what happens in Armenia, what
22 political situation is, or if Turkey and Armenia are
23 upset at each other, it's not -- I don't care. What I
24 care is about what I'm going to do, I'm going to prove
25 to you, prove to him, prove to my mother, and my wife
Northern California Court Reporters 253
1 that I am going to live a good life. That'd I'm going
2 to live a civil and law obeying citizen life and I'm not
3 going never, no matter what happens, it's never ever
4 going to sway me, pull me away from that.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. All right.
6 Thank you, sir. The doctor on the following page after
7 that --
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Which page is it? I'm sorry.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: I'm on page 18
10 now. That last statement was on page 17. And the
11 doctor indicates here that based on your statements in
12 the past few years it appears that his beliefs about the
13 Turkish government have changed and become more
14 prosocial. Mr. Sassounian expressed an adequate
15 understanding of the personal, interpersonal, and
16 contextual factors that contributed to his past
17 violence. One area of caution is noted regarding
18 Mr. Sassounian's insight into his violence risks, that
19 being his choice to reside in Armenia. Given that his
20 past violence is related to his beliefs about the
21 mistreatment of Armenian people, and given that, if he
22 resides in Armenia, he will no doubt be exposed to all
23 of the news about political and other harms directed
24 towards Armenia. Mr. Sassounian may be minimizing the
25 effect it will have on him. Another way of looking at
Northern California Court Reporters 254
1 this is Mr. Sassounian's crime was in great part
2 politically motivated. In prison, the political
3 atmosphere has nothing with Turkey or Armenia. And so,
4 it is not surprising he has been able to remain stable.
5 It is unpredictable, given the source of his personality
6 disorder, how he will respond to the political stress
7 living in Armenia, an entirely different new you, one
8 more related to his crime. So I think you've just
9 addressed that issue --
10 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
11 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- but it's
12 basically the same issue that the doctor points out on
13 the prior page with a -- with a little bit more focus.
14 And then he goes on to say that it's likely that you
15 will be acclaimed upon your return to Armenia. It's
16 also unpredictable how he will respond to the praise
17 from misguided admirers, especially given his answer
18 above regarding the extent he has gone to do -- I'm
19 sorry -- to dissuade people from placing him and his
20 past violent actions on a -- on a pedestal. So is there
21 anything you wanted to --
22 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: Yeah.
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- add?
24 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: Finally, it does not appear
25 Mr. Sassounian has problems with insight into his need
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1 for treatment based on his self-help programming record
2 as the last sentence there --
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Right. Well, I
4 haven't got --
5 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: -- which got dropped off.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: I hadn't
7 gotten --- I hadn't gotten there yet. So I want to give
8 him an opportunity to add any additional insight that he
9 may have, but you have already -- or do you feel you've
10 adequately addressed that?
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah, Commissioner. I have
12 stated, I think more than once here, that how I feel
13 about violence and what are my intentions are in life.
14 I don't care about -- people cannot brainwash me. They
15 cannot say, oh, you're this and that and then get me to
16 do things I don't want to do. I already have my goals
17 in life what I want to do in my future. I don't care if
18 they think I'm a hero. I don't think if there's ten of
19 them or a hundred thousand of them, that's not going to
20 change my commitment of non-violence. They're not --
21 it's not going to change my (inaudible) or determination
22 to prove to you that I can -- I can make it in life.
23 That's what my intention is. I don't care about what
24 other peoples saying, oh he's a hero and he's this; it
25 don't matter to me. (inaudible) witness and I believe,
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1 they tell me directed at this, I'm going to criticize
2 them. I'm going to condemn them. I'm going to tell
3 them what did I achieve in life? What did I do?
4 (Inaudible) what I did is just harm people, I destroyed
5 lives, I put fear in people and I destroyed my life.
6 Did anything positive come out of violence? Nothing
7 positive comes out of life -- out of violence, and
8 that's been proven. So that's what I'm going to
9 (inaudible) to them and I'm going to let them know how I
10 feel about it. And whoever they're preaching that crap
11 to, I'm going to preach to those people that they're not
12 speaking for me, because I'm against everything they're
13 saying. And that they're cowards because they're
14 preaching violence to other people, and the ones that
15 are sitting home, enjoying life. So I'm --
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Would that
17 potentially put you at risk?
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: It's not going to put me at
19 risk --
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: No?
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- because I'm not going to
22 be around people like that, Commissioner. I'm going to
23 be -- my focus in life when I was 19, was the Armenian
24 history and our politics and --
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Yeah. I mean not
Northern California Court Reporters 257
1 knowing the politics myself, obviously (inaudible).
2 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah, yeah.
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- (inaudible)
4 that (inaudible).
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- But my --_
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: I just was
7 curious --
8 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
9 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- if, you know,
10 there are ultra radicals perhaps still out there who --
11 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: Look, this is where I just --
12 I'm sorry for interrupting, but this is it's just, I
13 know you don't know the politics of it, I'm immersed --
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Right.
15 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: -- in the politics of it.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: I understand.
17 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: There is no such thing -- I
18 mean we're talking about something that was 35 years
19 ago, number one. Number two, there is no current --
20 there hasn't been any violence in 35 years. There is no
21 current conflict between Armenia and Turkey other than
22 the --
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Right.
24 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: -- recognition of the
25 genocide.
Northern California Court Reporters 258
1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Well, that part I
2 know.
3 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: There isn't -- there isn't
4 anything out there we're talking about that has happened
5 in the last 33 years. That's what I -- that's my
6 frustration and I apologize, I'm a shish kebab Armenian
7 I don't have the "I-A-N" on the end of it, but this is
8 the entire prism of this, and maybe it's my fault, maybe
9 I should've loaded up on Armenian history here and done
10 an educational or some kind of edification. This is
11 something that is three decades removed. We're not
12 there anymore. It's just not there. I've been to
13 Armenia. There is no -- the Armenians in Armenia could
14 care less about the genocide. It's more of the Diaspora
15 issue and just for April 24th; that's the reality of it.
16 So when you say, the ultra radicals, this is a Christian
17 nation that is surrounded by Islamic countries that does
18 not care about the genocide; they don't. What they care
19 about is getting the people jobs there. They care about
20 defending themselves if they get attacked. But there is
21 not anything going on in Armenia now. It's not Syria.
22 Syria is a whole different issue. And --
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Correct.
24 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: -- that's what Turkey is
25 concerned with right now, is Syria. So everything that
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1 has been given, the 12-page letter that you've got all,
2 all of this is stuff is fighting a battle that happened
3 34 years ago -- 40 years ago. And what you have to
4 remember is, you're looking at it through the prism of
5 what happened in 1981 with his crime and 1982. Well,
6 what you haven't factored in is there was no Armenia
7 then, it was under Soviet domination. The USSR
8 disintegrated, they then became a Republic of Armenia,
9 which has been -- with all of its issues has been an
10 independent democratic Christian nation ever sense. So
11 those issues are just not there anymore. And one of the
12 best -- and maybe I'm -- anticipate my closing, the best
13 examples that you don't have to worry about this is ten
14 other of these people at the time who committed these
15 crimes, and you saw that they said this was going on in
16 Europe, five of those have been -- those people have
17 been returned to Armenia, nobody's there with a claim,
18 nobody's committed any other acts. They're living
19 peacefully there. He's the last man standing in the
20 world.
21 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Well, thank you
22 for that.
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah, Commissioner, as far
24 as --
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: It must be in the
Northern California Court Reporters 260
1 genes --
2 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: -- answer --
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- you know.
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: A lot of passion.
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. (Inaudible).
7 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: It is -- it is in the genes.
8 I'll get to that in the closing. It is in --
9 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Commissioner, nobody's going
10 to influence me, Commissioner. Nobody's going to preach
11 me --
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: No, I wasn't
13 talking about influence I was talking about any
14 potential risks to you, that just popped into my head,
15 just thinking about it. But --
16 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Well, Commissioner --
17 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: But if there is,
18 as your attorney points out, you know, that group that,
19 you know, that underlying group is no longer there and
20 that, you know, that venom is no longer there and that
21 (inaudible), then, you know, it's not an issue. I'm
22 just -- I was just --
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- curious.
25 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. I know.
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1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: So let me -- let
2 me conclude this one area --
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Okay. Okay.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- Of discussion.
5 And the doctor does conclude, as you stated earlier,
6 that it does appear that you have problems with insight
7 into your need for treatment based on your self-help
8 programming records so you have been open to programming
9 and support certainly the last couple of decades. Okay.
10 The doctor then covers the Youthful Offender factors in
11 a little bit of detail here. And then in the -- under
12 the risks of future violence and the interest of brevity
13 here, I would say the bottom line, the doctor indicates
14 that, in his estimation, you currently represent a low
15 risk for violence, so that's the conclusion of the
16 doctor at this time.
17 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I would say no risk.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: No risk?
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. He said low risk.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: He says low
23 risk.
24 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I'm saying no risk. Yeah.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Well, no risk is
Northern California Court Reporters 262
1 not an option for the doctor. He can -- high, medium --
2 high, moderate, or low so -- but I appreciate that.
3 Okay. So let's move onto the DA and ask Ms. Ingram
4 (sic) if she's -- if she's got any clarifying
5 questions -- oh, Ms. Ingalls, excuse me. Do you have
6 any clarifying questions you'd like us to raise with the
7 inmate?
8 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY INGALLS: Yes, just a
9 couple.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
11 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY INGALLS: There was a
12 picture submitted of the inmate at the Tehlerian
13 Memorial. When was that taken, if he recalls?
14 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Do you recall
15 when that picture was taken?
16 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: The what?
17 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: Picture at the Tehlerian
18 Memorial.
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Oh. Oh, yes.
20 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: She's just asking when was it
21 taken?
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: If you remember.
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I would say '81, maybe
24 beginning of '81 somewhere, sometime.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
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1 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY INGALLS: And in that
2 picture, was the inmate photographed with Koko?
3 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Was Koko in that
4 photograph --
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
6 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- with you?
7 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
8 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
9 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY INGALLS: And what is
10 the significance of the Tehlerian Monument?
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: What's the significant of it?
12 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Um-hmm. What is
13 the significance --
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Oh.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- of the
16 monument?
17 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: We were in Fresno and we knew
18 that -- Soghomon Tehlerian, Commissioner, is the
19 Armenian -- young Armenian guy who's family was
20 butchered during the genocide -- when during the
21 genocide and the man who was responsible for the
22 genocide, Talaat Pasha who gave the order to butcher one
23 and a half million Armenians who was tried and found
24 guilty and was sentenced to death in Turkey, but he
25 escaped Turkey and went to Germany. And in Germany,
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1 Soghomon Tehlerian, who was family was murdered went and
2 found him and assassinated Talaat in Berlin. And he was
3 arrested there on site. And he was tried and he
4 fought -- he told the judge that he did the murder and
5 he found -- was found not guilty and ordered out, after
6 which he came to United States and lived for 40, 50
7 years and he passed away. So Armenian people,
8 Commissioner, see Soghomon Tehlerian as a -- as a hero
9 because he assassinated the murderer of one and a half
10 million Armenians. To Armenian people, Soghomon
11 Tehlerian is what would be for the Jews if a Jew had
12 assassinated Hitler. So Armenian people do see Soghomon
13 Tehlerian as a hero because he took avenge on the man
14 that murdered half the Armenian people that existed in
15 1915. So I looked up to him. I did see him as a hero.
16 And the man -- and we were in Fresno and either I
17 suggested it or Koko suggested to go to the -- to the
18 cemetery and take a picture, and we did.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. Thank you.
20 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY INGALLS: And how did
21 Koko know to go to Comstock and Wilshire?
22 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: How did Koko --
23 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: I think --
24 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: -- know to go to Comstock and
25 Wilshire?
Northern California Court Reporters 265
1 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: I think he
2 testified earlier that he didn't know.
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I didn't know. I wish I
4 knew.
5 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY INGALLS: I have no
6 further questions.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay.
8 Mr. Geragos, any follow-up questions for your client?
9 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: That picture was obviously
10 taken prior to the crime; correct?
11 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Before the crime, yes.
12 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: Okay. Was that when you
13 were -- does showing you that picture, in any way,
14 diminish anything you've testified to today?
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: No.
16 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: Thank you. I have no further
17 questions of him.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: All right. So
19 let's take the closing statements. We're going to start
20 with the DA. Ms. Ingalls?
21 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY INGALLS: Thank you.
22 The People would oppose parole for this inmate. Dealing
23 first with the Youthful Offender factors, I think that
24 those do not apply in this case, particularly because
25 this was such a planned, premeditated, willful type of
Northern California Court Reporters 266
1 assassination in broad daylight in the streets of Los
2 Angeles. So we do not have the recklessness that is
3 often shown, although he might have been sort of
4 impulsive but he -- this did show planning, etcetera. I
5 think what we have here are several threads running
6 through his testimony today as well as prior hearings
7 and exhibits that have been submitted. And I would
8 suggest that some of those threads are definitely
9 radicalization that people would submit that has not
10 really gone away at this point. There is a credibility
11 issue and there is an issue that, from the very
12 beginning, some of this was done for publicity to get
13 hero status. He's kind of a rockstar and that started
14 from the very beginning. The credibility issue starts
15 in terms of the bombing by his brother of Mr. Arikan and
16 his family. This was talked about in prior hearings.
17 He indicated, again, that he denies knowing about it or
18 from his brother, which again, seems unbelievable. It's
19 clear that the Armenian community is a tight community.
20 It's been testified before that people talked about
21 all -- you know, all things Armenian and probably all
22 things Turkish. Also, there was evidence at the trial
23 that Harout, his brother, told everyone he liked to talk
24 about it. So that is a credibility issue, and also the
25 fact, that it is too much of a coincidence that there
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1 was a bombing of Mr. Arikan and his family, and then
2 really shortly thereafter the assassination of
3 Mr. Arikan. There was testimony by -- or a letter by
4 Lael Rubin indicating that actually, Mr. Arikan had
5 moved after the bombing and gone to a secure location.
6 The route described is very secretive, so how these two
7 individuals could land up in one place serendipitously
8 on two days just to be there at the right time, defies
9 credibility. When, in fact, actually at the trial,
10 there was testimony regarding -- from the mailman, that
11 there were three different cars seen scoping out the
12 location. The January 19, 1982 crime, we know that the
13 inmate had gone and done some shooting practice with his
14 crime partner four to six times. They had decided to do
15 this in December '81, so as he said, it took four to six
16 weeks planning it, it would seem, and he also indicated
17 that in the 2013 parole hearing transcript. Others
18 could have been killed by what they did that day,
19 whether it was random gunfire, bullets bouncing off, or
20 other people on a well-travelled street. Nine o'clock
21 in the morning, on Wilshire Boulevard, it is very well
22 travelled. The news desk, that's the publicity angle,
23 we know that shortly after the -- very shortly
24 thereafter the crime, there's a call made on behalf of
25 the JCAG, "I'm calling on behalf of the Justice
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1 Commandos of Armenian Genocide, we just shot -- we, just
2 shot a diplomat in Los Angeles. The revolutionary
3 struggle that began in 1975 with attacks against Turkish
4 diplomats, starting in Vienna and Paris, we have carried
5 out 14 operations. And today, we claim the
6 responsibility of the attack in Los Angeles. These acts
7 are to demand justice for genocidal crime in Turkey in
8 1915, our sole struggle. We are the Justice Commandos
9 of Armenian Genocide." He has continued to deny that.
10 However, we find later in his articles submitted to the
11 Armenian Solider that he is introduced as part one of
12 the members of the Justice Commandos of Armenian
13 Genocide; first, in 2012 and then when he re-wrote a
14 letter in 2013, that was not taken out. He did not
15 correct it in any way. So if it was an accident by the
16 solider paper in 2012, it shockingly reappears in 2013.
17 Again, we're talking about radicalization. We're
18 talking about publicity, which he seemed to seek out, as
19 I think as we go through a timeline. Today, he says it
20 must have been Koko. He's not supposed to tell anyone.
21 Well, what's the good of that. What's the point of
22 assassinating the highest ranking Turkish person and not
23 telling everybody you did it, so that we could have some
24 type of calling to account by Turkey officials that
25 there is actually a genocide there. So that doesn't
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1 make any sense as well. That crime left Mr. Arikan's
2 wife and children in fear for the rest of their lives.
3 They left the country due to fear and the rest of the
4 Turkish population. And I would say, even without the
5 politics, whatever the politics are, who's right, who's
6 wrong, I'm not here to make that decision. The fact
7 that there is a political assassination in my town on a
8 street that I travel often, actually, is fundamentally
9 wrong to me. So we're not just talking about their
10 politics what happened, we're talking about what
11 happened on the streets of LA, bringing over from there
12 to the streets of LA. Again, talking about his crime,
13 he told -- there was testimony, he told the informant,
14 he wanted publicity. That's in the Probation Report,
15 page 8, that he targeted and killed with intent in the
16 effect of terrorizing an entire community and that was
17 successful. The victim, he was targeted because his
18 position was the highest ranking official of the Turkish
19 government in Southern California, the most visible
20 member of the Turkish community. Again, we're talking
21 about publicity. We're talking about radicalization.
22 Per the Probation Officer's Report, the informant was
23 told by the inmate, who appears to be chatty, so it's
24 not hard to think that he might have been chatting
25 somebody up in the jail, that he was ordered to kill by
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1 JCAG, and he told that to the informant. We know that
2 he says he's finding out about this because he's reading
3 about himself in the newspaper in jail, again enjoying
4 some of the publicity he is getting as a result of this.
5 Furthering his radicalization and credibility issues,
6 1991, he gets a tattoo of coincidentally the insignia
7 for ARF. He says it's a unity symbol and compares it to
8 Mount Rushmore, Statue of Liberty. Now, I haven't been
9 doing this in these hearings very long, but I have been
10 doing criminal law for a while, I have yet to see people
11 have the tattoo of Mount Rushmore or Statue of Liberty
12 that has no particular significance for people that are
13 aligning themselves with a cause, unlike the tattoo of
14 the ARF. The tattoo of the ARF, it stands for United
15 Armenia which is a very political statement because they
16 want to go back to Woodrow Wilson 1920, when Armenia
17 then would have had a much bigger plot that includes
18 parts of Turkey as well as, and I'm going to totally
19 mispronounce this country, Azerbaijan, and I apologize
20 for mispronouncing that. I just can't seem to get my
21 mouth around some of these words. But at any rate, we
22 know -- so then the credibility with the tattoo he says
23 he was pressured into it. But this is a guy who says he
24 doesn't give over to pressure, that nobody is going to
25 tell him what to do. And so he would've put a mountain
Northern California Court Reporters 271
1 on his chest, a mountain that also happens to be an
2 insignia of or symbol for United Armenia, but he
3 couldn't find a mountain picture, although they seem to
4 all look very much the same to me, he lands on this
5 United Armenia, so that's a credibility issue. If we
6 were to compare tattoos in prison, we would compare this
7 to tattoos such as those that go to Eme people where
8 they start putting 13, Southerners, Northerners, Eme, or
9 things like that. And again, he should be judged
10 also -- how would we judge somebody who is saying they
11 are no longer Eme related or some other similarly
12 entrenched criminal in prison. 1996, he calls a radio
13 station in Armenia and Lebanon that's pursuant to the
14 2013 parole hearing. Again, we're talking publicity,
15 media. He's calling from prison to Armenia, to Lebanon;
16 that is pretty significant efforts for somebody who
17 can't call and now tell people don't do this -- don't do
18 this. 1998, there's a AYF 65th anniversary celebration,
19 again we have a pre-recorded telephone message from the
20 inmate. He praises the organization and Armenian people
21 and urged them to continue the struggle. Again, we're
22 talking about publicity and radicalization. In 1998, he
23 gets his other tattoo, again credibility,
24 radicalization, alliance with the cause. Again, today
25 he says I was pressured into it. This is a guy who says
Northern California Court Reporters 272
1 he doesn't get pressured into anything, which has
2 been -- defies how he got these tattoos. 2001, public
3 radio -- publicity, radicalization, a hero, he's
4 thanking the community for support through letters and
5 phone calls through a live telephone interview on
6 Horizon TV, expressing his gratitude to the
7 Armenian-American communities. He's getting letters
8 from supporters in Lebanon, Iran, Europe, and the
9 Americas. Of course, they're all saying he's unjustly
10 incarcerated. In 2002, a fundraiser on his behalf. He's
11 giving an audio interview from prison again, conducted
12 by -- I apologize for massacring the name, Fornuizen
13 (phonetic), which was played for all attendees at the
14 fundraiser on his behalf. Again publicity,
15 radicalization, he's a hero. 2002, though he does admit
16 his guilt, he says he's sorry, prepared statement even
17 though he was getting a deal. He was not going to be
18 pursued for LWOP, which he wouldn't even be here if we
19 had pursued that. Does he change course, does he say
20 now, I'm going to embrace it, admit it, kind of own it.
21 We know in 2006, the Confidential (sic) Risk Assessment
22 that he admits that he has pen pals in Armenia, but he's
23 against violence completely now. That's when he starts
24 saying that. But still, in 2007, a group from AYF
25 visited the inmate in prison after reading a letter from
Northern California Court Reporters 273
1 him to Haytoug in the 90s, showing that he is continuing
2 to be a hero -- continuing to be a role model, still the
3 cause in what they do. Then in 2008, they write a
4 letter to Haytoug --
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
6 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY INGALLS: -- where they
7 talk about --
8 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: I think at this point, I'm
9 going to object all of this. It has not -- it hasn't
10 been addressed, is not the record, and there's -- it's
11 all hearsay, and most of it is completely false. I
12 don't know why we're arguing outside of the record at
13 this point, unless of course, the Turkish representative
14 has been writing her closing argument. And if it's that
15 case, then that would seem to be a violation of
16 precisely why the Writ was taken in the first place,
17 which is they're only here as observer status, and not
18 to be involved in consorting with the District
19 Attorney's Office. So I would object to all of this
20 because there has been no -- there's no foundation for
21 any of it. It's all hearsay and we strongly dispute it.
22 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Well, as to the
23 Turkish observer, I haven't seen him participating in
24 the District Attorney's activities. As far as, the
25 closing statement goes, you're well -- very well aware
Northern California Court Reporters 274
1 that it's not evidence, it's legal argument --
2 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: Right. Except it's citing
3 things as fact, which are outside of the record.
4 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Well, you can
5 address those in your closing argument.
6 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: Okay.
7 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: We're considering
8 it not as fact, we're considering it as legal argument.
9 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: Okay.
10 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: So you can address
11 all the deficiencies in your closing statement, and I
12 would allow her to make the objection to anything you
13 said.
14 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: As long as we're stating on
15 the record, I would, for the record that the Turkish
16 observer, at all breaks and prior to this, was for over
17 an hour with the District Attorney in the conference
18 room.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: So noted.
20 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: Okay.
21 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY INGALLS: Thank you. I
22 won't take offense that I can't write. He's insinuating
23 that I am unable to write my own closing statement.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Let's move on and
25 proceed with your closing statement.
Northern California Court Reporters 275
1 DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY INGALLS: Thank you.
2 Again, this is taken from prior parole hearing
3 transcripts and exhibits talked about and submitted at
4 various times and -- so this group then from AYF
5 visiting the inmate, they write a letter to a magazine
6 and they talk about how impressed they were by meeting
7 with the inmate, they had a picture taken with him, it
8 was posted in the picture. And they indicated that they
9 were overwhelmed with emotion when they -- he heard --
10 they heard the words of a 25-year political prisoner.
11 This group, they're from New York, have been sending
12 Christmas cards in 2007 to the inmate. In 2008, Spring
13 Haytoug Magazine by AYF, inmate had given an interview
14 to the Voice of Van Radio Station in Beirut, calling on
15 the Lebanese-Armenian community to repatriate to
16 Armenia. The editor includes the inmate in with those
17 who have sacrificed themselves and given their lives for
18 their struggle; again, we're talking about
19 radicalization, continuation of the cause, publicity.
20 An article after 2007, which I just mentioned, talks
21 about meeting with the man behind the idea, that he will
22 never know the extent of his legacy. Have we fallen
23 short of his dreams, were we doing justice to his calls
24 for action. And that's what this young group of people
25 we're asking themselves, again talking about him being a
Northern California Court Reporters 276
1 hero. 2009, Armenia radio station in Brazil talks about
2 the inmate has sacrificed his youth for Armenian people,
3 let's help them be free. Again publicity, hero status.
4 2010 hearing -- at the hearing we heard inmate is
5 presently drafting a letter to express his remorse for
6 what he has done, and hopes to have it published in an
7 Armenian newspaper and LA Times. Well, credibility
8 we're still waiting, and it's 2016. Then, we go to
9 2012, the end of my struggle is victory. His letter to
10 the Armenian Soldier, not just a regular newspaper,
11 while he is saying today that he's ashamed of himself
12 and was -- he had started thinking that in the 1980s,
13 he's actually writing this letter to the Armenian
14 Soldier; again, showing his continued radicalization and
15 desire for publicity. He's a soldier of the Secret Army
16 of Justice Commandos for Armenian Genocide, that is how
17 the article describes him; again, repeated in 2013.
18 Apparently, he did not correct it, even though he has
19 indicated in prior hearings that he read that paper all
20 the time. Again, they had a picture of him from prison.
21 And although he indicates today the he didn't say
22 anything like hate the Turks, kill the Turks, or
23 anything like that, he does make a lot of coded
24 reference, I believe. He talks about, again -- and I
25 apologize for if I'm massacring any names, Abovian who
Northern California Court Reporters 277
1 wrote, Wounds of Armenia; Nalbandian, The Revolutionary
2 Democracy; Rafia (phonetic), Wanted to Awaken Armenia;
3 People from Lethargy' The Artsakh War, and that's
4 regarding the border of Armenia and Azerbaijan. He
5 talks about the struggle and be tortured for the
6 Motherland. He entered the military service at 18.
7 He's a guard on the -- guard on the border of the
8 Motherland. He references to massive serve Mashtots,
9 both references to -- mass is a reference to a mountain
10 in Turkey that the Armenians claim as theirs and feel
11 that they've lost to the Turks. Mashtots who said
12 without work, people would be absorbed by Persians and
13 Syrians and disappear like so many nations. He quotes a
14 famous Ozanian. And then he says, he wants weapons with
15 names like Andranik, who was an Armenian military
16 commander -- excuse me, best known Fedahi (phonetic),
17 and another individual, N-Z-H-D-E-H, a military
18 strategist member of the ARF, and an individual named
19 A-B-O-V-Y-A-N, Rafi and N-A-L-B-A-N-D-Y-A-N, all of them
20 significant in the struggle in Armenia. As a side note,
21 he has indicated that he doesn't like books, but I
22 believe in that letter, he says I've read all the
23 Armenian Jive, so it seems to me, in listening to him
24 today, he has the tools to actually apply himself and
25 try to get an education; it just doesn't interest him.
Northern California Court Reporters 278
1 What interests him is the Armenian struggle, the
2 Armenian Genocide, the Armenian culture seems to be rich
3 in all kinds of literature, etcetera. But again, this
4 letter is going towards the military strategist. In
5 2012 then, another letter indicating at the Armenian
6 Soldier publicity, again racialization, a hero, it's
7 Homeland is love, and not your usual thing where, you
8 know, you have a relationship and you want to tell
9 people about it. So you know, what do you do, do you
10 write to -- or your fiancé writes to the Armenian
11 Solider or do you write to, you know, people or
12 something like that? No. I think what happens here is
13 that they write to the Armenian Solider, in that letter,
14 then their relationship is romanticized as the ideal for
15 any Armenian soldier, that if you go to the Board or
16 defend or attack, there will be a woman waiting for you.
17 They talk in that letter about growing up to be like
18 Monte (phonetic), who is a significant figure in their
19 history. 2012, publicity, radio -- radicalization, I'm
20 sorry, and hero status. Second letter by -- to Armenian
21 Solider. He wrote two to three letters, indicating in a
22 span of a year, and he gets the paper -- I'm sorry
23 that's from the parole hearing. 2013, the Risk
24 Assessment says the inmate risks of violent recidivism
25 expected to increase if he were surrounded by or
Northern California Court Reporters 279
1 connected with supporters of the cause. Why is that
2 significant? Because that is repeated again in 2016.
3 The 2013 parole hearings, he explained how this
4 letter -- the Homeland is love (inaudible). Again, he
5 blames his girlfriend for taking 300 letters and she
6 took phrases about what he wants Armenia to be and you
7 know, just sort of taken out of context. Parole hearing
8 in 2013, he indicates that he called a radio station in
9 Argentina and Lebanon to talk about United Armenia.
10 Again, that's the vision in 1920 from Woodrow Wilson,
11 again publicity and radicalization. Then we have the
12 famous letter, I salute the Armenian soldiers at the
13 border. And he's saying today violence cannot be
14 rationalized, but we have this letter and it is totally
15 different than what he is saying today. He mentions
16 Armenacon (phonetic), Ponchek (phonetic), and Tasnex
17 (phonetic) took steps to defend the nation. And in the
18 past, we had traitors instead of soldiers. I look at
19 the pictures with modern weapons with deep pride. My
20 hearts and dreams that capture me, embraces prior -- he
21 embraced prior articles. He says he was pleased,
22 excited, and moved. He saluted the Armenian soldiers at
23 the border, Masis is smiling as he sees you. Goodbye
24 until we meet. In that hearing in 2013, he compared to
25 Masis which seems to be somewhat of a political icon to
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1 Mount Fuji in Japan. I am unaware of any Japanese
2 having any issues with Mount Fuji and whoever might be
3 on its border. Again, credibility and minimization.
4 Again, he was asked why he didn't write letter and
5 disavow membership in his group, but never answered the
6 question. In that same parole hearing, there was a
7 mention of a video, talking about the vision of, again,
8 Woodrow Wilson seizing and ruling the area, free our
9 inmate, our brother who has been in prison by Turkish
10 pressure. Again, showing that he is a hero. 2014,
11 donations made with his -- with his name for a
12 fundraiser for United Young Armenians, again publicity,
13 hero status. They say he spent his life in jail for his
14 life's holy purpose. He is a national hero just like,
15 Tehlerian, who we just talked about pursuant to one of
16 my questions and I won't repeat that. A call-in show --
17 this was to a call-in show, indicating a failure to
18 fight. If you did that, you were a traitor to Armenian
19 Nationalism -- sorry, I'm a little dry there. They
20 talked about -- that was on Facebook. 2015, parole
21 hearing, again credibility, where he -- where he likened
22 the ARF tattoo to Mount Rushmore, you know, and that he
23 wanted Mount Ararat, A-R-A-R-A-T; I apologize for
24 mispronouncing it, saying Noah's ark landed there.
25 Well, it has a lot more significance than that and that
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1 is disingenuous. Again, no remorse letter, yet. 2015,
2 a letter from a delegate that was an exhibit, and
3 perhaps he's not aware of it, but it does show in that
4 letter, that he is still very much a hot topic back in
5 Armenia, when a delegate is making -- a delegate is
6 making application by letter to the Prime Minister of
7 the Republic of Armenia on the necessity to bring the
8 inmate back. It quotes the 2012 letter, which we talked
9 about for a while today; refers to inmate twice as a
10 warrior for justice, sacrificing himself, continuing the
11 actions of the Tehlerian. Again, he's a hero to so many
12 people. 2015, again reposting of the 2012 letter in
13 another paper. And there's a picture of armed soldiers
14 walking towards that mountain we've been talking about,
15 Masis. Again, hero, credibility, as far as nobody cares
16 about me. I would seem to disagree with that. Facebook
17 page from 2016 submitted as an exhibit has
18 Hampig Sassounian, a warrior of Armenian genocide, again
19 Mount Ararat is in the background. Again, now with a
20 target on it and a finger to the target showing that it
21 is a political target or political icon. Talks about
22 United Armenia. Again, a picture from the inmate in
23 jail, an excerpt from a letter from the inmate to the
24 Journal Hassenvor (phonetic), again a reference to
25 Tehlirian. 2016, the Confidential Risk Assessment --
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1 Comprehensive not confidential, gave the same caution
2 that the inmate has minimized the effect it will have on
3 him, that it's unpredictable. And I think that language
4 is pivotal here, unpredictable what is going to happen,
5 given the source of his personality disorder, how he
6 will react to the political stress of living in Armenia.
7 Not surprising, he has been able to remain stable in
8 prison. He will be acclaimed upon his release.
9 Unpredictable how he will respond to the praise for
10 admirers. This is again mentioned -- this is that it's
11 unpredictable how he'll respond to this stress. The
12 behavior and demeanor in prison is not representative of
13 how he may respond to stresses in a politically charged
14 environment. He has obsessive, negative personality
15 traits. He has not done everything he can to
16 disassociate himself from Armenian politics and those
17 who may still be interested in violence. And then
18 finally, just on a more impression note, the inmate
19 impresses me with his intensity and passion and his
20 energy. Even though he says he's tired, he does not
21 seem tired today. And his memory for events both
22 Armenian history and his story and what he's told
23 everybody is very impressive for little bitty details,
24 although they are important to him, it still is
25 impressive on what he has said to various clinicians and
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1 the Board. His passion about his remorse and shame and
2 non-violence, lengthy oratory, I think though
3 demonstrated, as I read the CRA, I wondered why they
4 thought that he was obsessive, why he had that trait; I
5 think we saw it here in the parole hearing, during it
6 that, he does have an obsessive personality. And you
7 can see that kind of intensity and passion that perhaps
8 is what vigilantes need or terrorists would have. So
9 for all those reasons, the People would oppose parole.
10 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: All right. Thank
11 you, ma'am. Mr. Geragos?
12 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: Yeah. I object -- vigorously
13 object to all of the things that are not in the record.
14 I attended, unlike, anybody else in this room other than
15 Mr. Sassounian, every single parole hearing. I
16 conducted the parole hearings, much if not all of the
17 things she cited in the prior parole hearings were
18 struck by the Parole Commissioners, they were submitted
19 at the last minute by the Turkish government or their
20 reported representatives previous to the Commissioners
21 and Deputy Commissioners, so that was unfair, it was
22 ambush and struck and said they would not consider it.
23 Much like what happened with Commissioner Montes today
24 on the Internet search, that it was not something that
25 was admissible. So none of that is in the record or
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1 most of it is not in the record and all it is great. It
2 shows a fundamental misunderstanding, I think, of why
3 we're here today. First of all, we're here today
4 because we're supposed to reevaluate the Youth Offender
5 characteristics, there is a presumption, given his age
6 at the time, there are certain presumptions that, as you
7 well know, I'm telling you something you don't know, as
8 to what we are here for. It's great that we can go back
9 and we can go through this prism of history from 1981
10 and 1982. I could have a discussion with Ms. Ingalls
11 from now until New Year's about the history of this.
12 The history of this is one solid piece of unimpeachable
13 evidence, is that there has not been a single violent
14 act since 1983 ever, anywhere, nowhere, no how. The
15 unimpeachable facts are, something that we can say is
16 that there is an Armenia as of 1991, and guess what,
17 that Armenia has been there for over 25 years, and there
18 has not been a single act of terrorism, either on behalf
19 of Turkey towards Armenia or Armenia towards Turkey. So
20 we know for a fact, that all of this is rehashing the
21 life crime. All of -- everything that they've presented
22 is nothing more than rehashing the life crime. That's
23 not why we're here. We're here to evaluate where he is
24 right now. Apparently, the District Attorney is amazed
25 at the CRA. Well, she should be amazed by the CRA. The
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1 CRA has him at the lowest possible risk level, the
2 lowest, far and away. What do we also know? We know,
3 contrary to what the District Attorney led you to
4 believe today, the uncontroverted evidence from him,
5 from Mr. Sassounian, is that he, in a room -- and I, by
6 the way, she wasn't there, I was there -- I was there
7 when he turned around in Judge Perry's courtroom in
8 Department 104 in the Criminal Courts Building and
9 addressed a courtroom full of Armenians that was -- had
10 the press there, and said, I did this. Violence is not
11 the answer. Please report this. Please, and I
12 apologize for this and I apologize. He did that almost
13 exactly 15 years ago. Now, everything they bring up is
14 since then, is this idea that if you are supporting
15 Armenia or if you're Armenia -- or Armenian, that
16 somehow that makes you a terrorist. I mean that's
17 the -- that's the fundamental logical cause and effect
18 of what she's saying. If you were to have -- although
19 he's not as good as he used to be, George (inaudible)
20 mentioned here, and he heard the ex-Governor of
21 California, and if he heard some of the nonsense that
22 was just spewed, he would be out of his head. If you
23 had Justice Armand Arabian or Justice Marvin Baxter here
24 from the Supreme Court of California, both now retired,
25 they would tell you the same thing. There isn't a
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1 single Armenian walking the face of California, who
2 wouldn't say to you, I love my country. I love the fact
3 that we have our country back. There's no
4 self-respecting Armenian -- like I said, I'm a shish
5 kebab, I've got four grandparents who escaped the
6 genocide, there isn't a single one who wouldn't say, I
7 love Armenia, and who wouldn't be absolutely appalled by
8 the closing argument here, because you're never going to
9 beat that out of an Armenian. If the -- if the idea is,
10 is for him to say, I hate Armenia, I don't want anything
11 to do with Armenia, it's just not going to happen. He's
12 an Armenian citizen, that's where he's going to get
13 returned. ICE is never going to allow him to stay here,
14 he's going to get deported. So the fact remains, what
15 happens when you go to Armenia? Well, when you go to
16 Armenia, the genocide is no longer an issue. That just
17 isn't an issue. So it may be in the Diaspora, but it
18 isn't. What is an issue -- why we're here today is
19 whether or not he's done everything he's supposed to do.
20 You went through, Commissioner Reardon, exhaustively --
21 maybe not exhaustively, but the 128s and 115s. It's not
22 the most discipline-free, but it sure has heck has shown
23 that he's been able to succeed and do well. He's gone
24 through, Commissioner, the self-help programs. He's
25 done the book reports. He's remained free of any
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1 significant problem since he's been here. You've now
2 got two out of the last three CRAs which say he is the
3 lowest possible risk; I agree with them. I don't think
4 there's any risk. There's no risk whatsoever. But once
5 again, when you're confronted with that fact, they want
6 to start talking about the phone call. Well, there's
7 one problem with the phone call. And I know that
8 Ms. Ingalls wasn't there; I was there. Literally this
9 happened so long ago, I was waiting for my bar results,
10 watching my father try this case in Judge Nelson's
11 courtroom, and that phone call was not put into
12 evidence. In fact, it was the subject of a litigation
13 as to whether or not the jury ever even should have
14 heard about it, because there was -- there was a
15 question as to whether it actually happened. So this
16 idea now that he's got to know --somehow know something
17 about the Justice Commando phone call, which
18 specifically, the People concede that the reference to
19 such a phone call introduced into the deliberations, a
20 matter which was not admitted into evidence and, as
21 such, considered constituted jury misconduct. He can't
22 deal with that. I can't deal with that. That was what
23 happened then. What happened now, I know they want to
24 put this back or put him back in 1981 or 1982, and you
25 know what, her arguments are great if he was still 19.
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1 Her arguments are great even if he was 29. Her
2 arguments start to come part or the wheels start to come
3 off at 39. At 49, the wheels have fallen off. At 53,
4 there isn't, in my humble opinion, a better candidate
5 for a parole date than somebody who has done 35 years of
6 custody time on a -- on this case. I mean, 35 years
7 exceeds the base, has the -- even though he was brought
8 here in '84, he's been in custody continuously since
9 1981. Yes, and I don't have to tell the two of you, you
10 know better than anybody, and one of the reasons we have
11 the Youthful Offender characteristics is because we now
12 understand that look, if you want to stop crime, what do
13 you do? You just incarcerate all males from 16 to 25,
14 within a month you'd have no crime whatsoever. And the
15 function of that is based on the biology of it. I mean
16 the male brain -- having raised a daughter and a son, I
17 can tell you that the male brain just doesn't develop as
18 quickly as the female. And so, you get to a point now
19 where he had all of these fights so to speak. There
20 isn't that fight anymore. I mean if you are trying to
21 say, if you take that 19-year-old and all of that rage
22 about the denial of the genocide, and I grew up with
23 that, I grew up listening to my grandmother talk about
24 it -- the horror stories about it, but it's not an
25 issue. It hasn't been an issue for 20 years. And so,
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1 this idea that somehow we're going to judge him today,
2 when we're supposed to be dealing with Youth Offender
3 characteristics versus who he has become, and yes, I
4 will concede with, as Ms. Ingalls says, that he has
5 passion. And you know what, when you jokingly said to
6 Ms. Montes, I always -- I always say this. I mean, we
7 Armenians, we say, if you tie our hands, behind our back
8 we can't speak. That is -- that is hardwired into the
9 DNA as well. We are passionate people, but I think he
10 said it best. I wish I had come up with the line, I
11 would've programmed it doing it. It's whether that
12 passion is meshed with violence. It's whether that
13 passion is intertwined; it isn't. I mean he's
14 demonstrably shown that isn't. I mean, is that passion
15 still there? Yes. I mean, I can't -- I can't beat it
16 out of him, but that's hardwired into the DNA. That
17 passion should not be mistaken for violence, that
18 shouldn't be -- that passion isn't something where you
19 say, well okay, he sat and he talked with the
20 psychiatrist and he talked with the psychological
21 professional. The psychological professional did
22 everything they're supposed to do, and guess what, two
23 out of the last three, out of the last three years, this
24 guy is the lowest risk there is, but we're going to just
25 keep relitigating the crime. That's precisely what the
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1 cases say you can't do. The cases say you can't just
2 keep relitigating the crime and that's all they want to
3 do. So when they can't do that, then they throw in a
4 bunch of stuff that's not in the record. They throw in
5 double, triple hearsay. They talk about how he may be
6 perceived by others, but he was the one who turned
7 around in that courtroom and said, I did it. He is the
8 one who turned around and said, violence is not the
9 answer. The DA was the one who embraced it at that
10 point and dropped the special circumstance which allows
11 him to have the parole hearings. So I think that there
12 is somewhat of a hypocritical or schizophrenic position
13 for them to now take well, you know, he didn't admit it
14 or he hasn't sung far and wide. I mean, I think his
15 explanation for sitting here, saying I'm under oath and
16 saying it, mind you, I also did it when I was in a
17 courtroom that was packed with the Armenian press. And
18 I will tell you, it's just so ironic that the DA at the
19 time, the DA who -- the head DA who was the DA of LA
20 County was somebody by the name of Robert Philibosian,
21 back in 1981 or '82, who was also Armenian, and had to
22 come into that courtroom on more than one occasion to
23 correct some of the borderline kinds of inappropriate
24 statements that were made. Armenians are Christians and
25 are not terrorists. Armenians are not over there as
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1 ISIS in the Middle East. There isn't a fight. This
2 idea that somehow, and this is why I get so outraged
3 about it, this idea that somehow, we're trying to talk
4 about the Middle East and these problems as if the
5 Armenians are ensconced in what's going on there and
6 this radicalization; I think she used radicalization 40
7 times. Armenians are not radicals. If anything, the
8 Armenians may be the most conservative group around,
9 both here and in Diaspora in California and in the
10 Middle East. But this isn't their fight. This isn't --
11 they have nothing to do with this. There isn't any
12 chance whatsoever that -- no chance, I'm with him, that
13 he's going to ever reoffend about anything. He's shown
14 it. He's had the opportunity here to -- on this yard to
15 do all kinds of things, which he hasn't done. He's done
16 the self-help. Did he pursue the education? I was
17 thinking about it with you, because I make this argument
18 all the time with people, I think there should be a part
19 of society that doesn't always have to go to college. I
20 think vocational skills are something that's sorely
21 missing nowadays. And that the idea of, you know, an
22 honest day's work and with your hands or whatever else,
23 there's something to be celebrated about that. He knows
24 his limitations, but he has now, and he's correct, every
25 single of these hearings, there hasn't been a
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1 psychologist or a psychiatrist who's examined him who
2 has said for one minute that he doesn't have insight.
3 There isn't somebody who has had that he doesn't have
4 empathy because he does have empathy, he does have
5 insight. The victim and I -- and he said it, as well, I
6 mean I could only imagine what would be said. I could
7 write it up in piece -- I could write it up in piece
8 ghostwrite it for him. I could put it in the Times. I
9 could get a CNN piece done on it. They would be -- then
10 come in the very next time and argue that was
11 Mr. Geragos just ghostwriting it for him or that was
12 Mr. Geragos doing this or that, and then they would say
13 that he had no credibility. And what you would want,
14 and that's -- you know, I guess that's the -- in reading
15 the case law, that's the flavor of the year, I guess, is
16 credibility now. The way to -- the way to deny a date
17 is to say, well the person has no credibility. What has
18 no credibility to me, and I know that you might find
19 this hard to believe, I think Commissioner Montes was
20 toying with this; his brother, Harout, who did the
21 Moltov cocktail on the front lawn, understand and I
22 think we -- the record is clear now on this, that
23 incident took place before his, but was not -- he was
24 not arrested until well after Hampig was in custody. He
25 was then prosecuted in Federal Court. She mentioned --
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1 Ms. Ingalls mentioned, Lael Rubin. Lael, at the time
2 who was still in the DA's office was cross-designated as
3 the Prosecutor for his brother. She was the one, who
4 then cut a deal with him and he ended up serving
5 whatever it was three or four years and lived for 15
6 years. He was not deported. He was released into the
7 community. He completed his supervised release, his
8 brother, while his younger brother is sitting in
9 custody, and he died some 20 years later. So if you are
10 going to say, how do we know this? I will tell you,
11 because the struggle, the fight, the whatever you want
12 to call it, the cause, as she keeps referring to it, is
13 long gone. There is Armenia. There isn't anybody
14 fighting on this issue anymore. I mean it's just, it's
15 so frustrating, and I apologize to you for getting --
16 but it's just -- I can only imagine if I was treading on
17 your area of expertise how mad you would get at me if I
18 thought I was some self-styled expert. So that's why I
19 apologize for it. But so much of what I hear about this
20 is just relitigating the crime, and is talking about a
21 time that has long since passed. I will just close it
22 with this. I told you I passed the bar during his
23 trial, watching my father try this case, and I buried my
24 father about six weeks ago.
25 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Hmm.
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1 ATTORNEY GERAGOS: In fact, Barbara was kind
2 enough to -- Ms. Wolff, I should say, was kind enough to
3 give me her condolences because she knew him. And I
4 buried him on a Wednesday. And the very next day, I got
5 news that my daughter passed the New York Bar. They had
6 sent -- New York is not like California, they send you
7 an e-mail out of nowhere, it's bizarre. And I said
8 well, Pops, you know, took care of business within a
9 week. Two weeks later, my nephew who was born the same
10 day as my daughter, my brother and I are very
11 competitive, he passed the California Bar, and the Cubs
12 in the interim won the World Series, and my father was a
13 beloved Chicago Cubs fan. And nothing, I think would
14 make him happier than for Harry to get a date today
15 because, I can tell you, I -- and part of the reason I
16 got irritated about the money is because I -- not only
17 have I not been paid in the last 20 years, I've been out
18 of pocket, I can't tell you how much money, coming up
19 here and running back and forth and putting money on the
20 books and everything else because I befriended him then.
21 And, yes, he was -- I can tell you as an eyewitness in a
22 front row seat there, he was an angry guy, and he had no
23 insight, as so many of the guys that I've represented
24 over the years and, just the ones you see, I mean are
25 just -- it's speculator failure of whatever the family
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1 structure is; we won't even go there. But the fact
2 remains is this 53-year-old is completely, completely
3 unrecognizable; I wouldn't even say of the -- of the --
4 to 19-year-old, I mean it's just -- it's not even in the
5 same universe. This is somebody who now has insight,
6 who's now even keel, remarkably even keel compared to
7 what he was. And if you compared him, as I did to his
8 brother, who ended up getting paroled and in the end, I
9 hate to say bad things about those who passed away, but
10 his brother was the one who you never would have
11 paroled. You know, if you had a -- if you had a choice.
12 I mean he's got -- he's come to the spot where he now
13 resembles mostly and is closest to his youngest brother,
14 Ara. And he's not going to disappoint you. If you give
15 him a date, he's not going to disappoint you. I can
16 just tell you that. The psychiatrists or psychologists
17 have told you that. All of his self-help has told you
18 that. This is a guy who's taken it seriously, he's done
19 the work. If he's not eligible for a date after 35
20 years, then when would he ever be? I mean, then we
21 might as well just say, that this is an illusory thing,
22 because this is -- in my opinion, you see a lot more,
23 and I don't -- I'm not going to encroach on your
24 territory, but if this -- if there was ever somebody who
25 was deserving of a date, this is the guy. And if he was
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1 going to dissemble or whatever the credibility issue,
2 why wouldn't I -- do you know how many times I've sat
3 and talked with him? Just say, you know what, you want
4 to lie? Just lie. Say yeah, Harout told me. I never
5 wanted to admit it before. Now, that he's dead, boo.
6 You know, because remember, he hadn't died when we did
7 the first hearings. He could've -- he could've used
8 that as an excuse, I mean I may look stupid, but I
9 could've come up with an excuse and programmed him and
10 said, just say it -- just say it, and say yeah, you were
11 connected with the Justice Commandos, just say it. He's
12 not that -- he's not that way. He's going to tell you
13 exactly what it is he believes. And you don't know me,
14 but I will tell you, I'm going to do something you're
15 not supposed to do which is vouch. You're never going
16 to regret for a day giving him a date. And thank you
17 and I apologize for the passion.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: No apology
19 necessary. Thank you. Mr. Sassounian, is there
20 anything that you would like to add at this time?
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes, Commissioner. I just to
22 add for the record, Commissioner, that I couldn't hear
23 what the DA was saying, so I can't (inaudible). It's
24 okay. I mean, I got the idea what she, said so --
25 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Mr. Sassounian,
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1 next time if you can't hear, we'll make some kind of
2 arrangement for you.
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah. It's okay. And I just
4 want to correct Mark on one thing -- about two things
5 that, my brother served six years in prison, not four,
6 Harout, and he was -- he paroled in 2000 -- I mean in
7 1988 and he was out for 21 years. And he never
8 committed another crime in over the lap, none of that
9 stuff. I just wanted that on the record. Commissioner,
10 you guys already know what I did. You guys know that
11 I've committed murder. You guys know about my
12 childhood. And you guys know what my mental state of
13 mind was when I committed murder on Mr. Arikan. I don't
14 want to keep repeating myself. I know it's been, I
15 don't how many hours now, you guys already got this down
16 already. I just want to say that I am deeply sorry to
17 everybody I harmed, and you know, of what I did was
18 not -- there's no excuse for it. And one thing that I
19 know for a fact, that there is not going to be any new
20 offending. There is not going to be no relapse. And I
21 know that it's your job as you come here and sit there
22 for three, four hours, five hours, and you face all the
23 murderers that sit at this table, and you're going to
24 decide is this guy going to do this again? Does he
25 understand what he did? Does he understand how not to
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1 do it again? And then you are -- by giving us a date --
2 me a date or us -- was finding us suitable, you're
3 putting your reputation out there, your name out there,
4 you're putting your trust that this guy is going to make
5 it. And I got to tell you, Commissioner, that there is
6 never going to be no regret in your heart. You're never
7 going to have to worry about me ever of reoffending. I
8 have (inaudible) completely different priorities in my
9 life. I don't focus on politics. I don't focus on the
10 genocide. I don't -- I don't have criminal mindset
11 anymore. I don't entertain violence. My passion in
12 life is to do good, and to get married and to have a
13 home, and to prove to you and everybody who cares about
14 me, that I can make it in life. That I can be a good
15 human being, who will obey the laws and be a good
16 citizen. I don't want to keep repeating this,
17 Commissioner, I think I'm going to end it there, because
18 I know you guys have been here for a long time already.
19 And I ask that you guys find me suitable today that --
20 and I promise that you will never regret that. Thank
21 you, Commissioner. Thank you.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Thank you, sir.
23 It is 3:22. We're going to recess for deliberation.
24 R E C E S S
25 --oOo--
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1 CALIFORNIA BOARD OF PAROLE HEARINGS
2 D E C I S I O N
3 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: We're back on the
4 record, Commissioner.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay. It is
6 4:30, December 14th, 2016. We have reconvened this
7 hearing for the Panel's decision in the -- in the matter
8 of Mr. Sassounian. All parties are back in the room,
9 and earlier this afternoon we lost the supervising DA
10 from Los Angeles DA's Office. Okay. So Mr. Sassounian
11 was received by CDCR on June 29th, 1984, from LA County
12 for controlling offense of Murder in the First-Degree.
13 He is serving a sentence of 25 years to life which was
14 modified from the original sentence of life without the
15 possibility of parole. The victim in this case was the
16 Turkish Consul General, Kemal Arikan. And the Panel is
17 aware that Mr. Sassounian qualifies as a Youthful
18 Offender pursuant to Penal Code 3051, and the Panel did
19 assign great weight to the Youthful Offender
20 characteristics in arriving at our decision today. The
21 Department has calculated the minimum eligible parole
22 date as, it looks like multiple dates here, October
23 25th, 2002. According to the California Supreme Court,
24 in making our parole eligibility decision, we must not
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1 act in an arbitrary or capricious way, and we are
2 required to consider all of the relevant and reliable
3 information available to us. And when a prisoner has
4 committed his controlling offense prior to attaining the
5 age of 23, we shall give great weight to the diminished
6 culpability of youth, the hallmark features of youth, as
7 well as any subsequent growth and maturation. And we
8 did so and we'll talk about that more momentarily. Now,
9 in this case, the Panel has read the entire written
10 record before us and it is very extensive. We also
11 considered the written responses received by the public.
12 We considered the -- all the documents that were
13 submitted in advance. We took into account the
14 Comprehensive Risk Assessment which also evaluated the
15 Youthful Offender characteristics. And we also
16 considered the written statements submitted by family
17 members, faith leaders, and representatives from the
18 legal community. There was a letter of support from the
19 sentencing judge. And we considered all of these
20 documents because that's one of the issues that helps us
21 calculate or measure the growth and maturity since the
22 crime, because these are presumably people who knew you
23 at the time of the crime and have observed your growth
24 and maturation since you have been incarcerated. We
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1 looked at the confidential portion of your C-File and
2 did not rely on any of its contents because we didn't
3 find them relevant to our finding of suitability today.
4 We considered your testimony, Mr. Sassounian, which was
5 extensive. And I want to note that we were very
6 impressed with the fact that you went through this
7 entire hearing, you talked for, gosh, it was probably
8 five hours, and you never once referred to any notes
9 whatsoever. Very, very, very passionate about your
10 perceptions, your view points, and your current
11 suitability, so we took note of that. The Panel notes
12 that inmate counsel offered his support for your release
13 and the District Attorney's Office, represented in
14 person today, presented opposition to your release.
15 There were no victim's next-of-kin present at this
16 hearing. And now the fundamental consideration in
17 making our decision is the potential threat to public
18 safety that you would pose if released to the community.
19 So any denial would have to be based on evidence in the
20 record of your current dangerousness. Having that legal
21 standard in mind, and after having given great weight to
22 the diminished culpability of juveniles as compared to
23 adults, the hallmark features of youth, and your
24 subsequent growth and maturation, we find that
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1 Mr. Sassounian does not pose an unreasonable risk of
2 danger to society or a threat to public safety, and you
3 are therefore now eligible for parole. Now, the record
4 clearly reflects some circumstances tending to show
5 unsuitability, namely the crime itself. However, we
6 felt that, at this point, the crime is now outweighed by
7 other circumstances that tend to show suitability. Our
8 decision doesn't diminish the fact that the -- that the
9 crime was atrocious, a brutal assassination of a public
10 official that occurred on January 28th, 1992, that being
11 Mr. Arikan, and we spoke of that in length during this
12 hearing. Your actions resulted in his violent death and
13 in the streets of Los Angeles where other people could
14 have been injured. You demonstrated -- well, you
15 referred to some of the reasons for committing the
16 offense as being anger, rage, resentment over your views
17 of the Turkish treatment of Armenians. And we felt
18 that, you know, these reasons couldn't possibly justify
19 your actions, and I think you would agree with that
20 statement today, although not at the time. We also
21 noted that you had some instability in your social
22 history. While you were born to an -- to an intact
23 family, you underwent significant trauma over the
24 political strife that you personally witnessed in your
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1 home country. There was some domestic violence in the
2 home as well. You came to this country and you
3 associated with likeminded individuals, specifically
4 your crime partner, and that ultimately led to the life
5 crime. However, the California Supreme Court has ruled
6 that after a long period of time, the commitment offense
7 and any unstable social history, may no longer indicate
8 that you're still a threat to public safety today. In
9 your case, 35 years in January will have passed, and
10 many of the circumstances that tend to show that you are
11 suitable are clearly evident. First of all, going to
12 some of the Youthful Offender characteristics, you did
13 commit your crime at the age of 19, you were a juvenile,
14 and there was a diminished culpability compared to that
15 of adult. I would tend to disagree slightly with the
16 clinician, who felt that your actions really did not
17 demonstrate the lessened culpability because of the
18 planning and the sophistication in your crime. However,
19 it's clear that the brain of a -- of a young person is
20 not fully developed at the age of 19, and you are
21 susceptible to a lot of irresponsibility, and the brain
22 doesn't fully function and those areas of the brain that
23 address risk avoidance and consequences of your actions
24 aren't fully formed yet. And I think those were part of
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1 what was involved here. You also had some exposure to
2 deviant peers, and together, that was a deadly
3 combination when you and Koko Saliba got together that
4 ultimately led to your crime, and we talked about that
5 during the hearing. But you clearly exhibited those
6 hallmark features of youth, that underdeveloped sense of
7 responsibility, recklessness, impulsivity, heedless risk
8 taking; all of these things I think were at play. But
9 you have demonstrated substantial growth and maturity
10 during your rehabilitation. We went back and in our
11 preparation, we reviewed prior transcripts, prior Risk
12 Assessments, and your entire self-help programming and
13 disciplinary history, and we could see the evolution
14 over time; that was quite evident. We also noted that
15 you do not have a history of violent crime, either as a
16 juvenile or as an adult prior to committing the life
17 crime; that was significant. So you didn't have an
18 entrenched history of violence. You seem to have a
19 stable social history today that may not have been fully
20 in place at the time of your crime. But, you know,
21 because at that time, there was some -- it was a little
22 rocky, but today you enjoy the support and love and
23 letters of support evidenced that from your mother, your
24 brother, your sister-in-law, lots of nieces and nephews,
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1 faith leaders. And as I mentioned earlier, the
2 sentencing court judge also submitted a letter of
3 support, which I don't think I've ever seen before. So
4 that was quite telling about where you are today and how
5 others view your development and your positive
6 rehabilitation. We also noted that you have accepted
7 full responsibility for your criminal actions and you
8 talked at great length about the causative factors for
9 the crime. Now, we didn't call them that but
10 essentially that's what they were, the reasons you
11 committed your crime. You talked in depth about your
12 character defects and some of the things that you've
13 done to overcome those character defects. You talked
14 about the historical -- the pain, the anger, the
15 resentment, the denial, the false pride that eventually
16 turned into rage and violence on the day of the crime.
17 You also verbalized a significant amount of remorse
18 during this hearing. It was clear that you understood
19 the magnitude of your crime, the ripple effects of the
20 multitudes of people that were impacted by your crime,
21 and we felt that your remorse was actually credible.
22 Although there wasn't a big display of tears or anything
23 like that, your words rang true, and there was
24 definitely a connection between what you were saying and
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1 what you were feeling today; at least, that's how we
2 viewed it. You also have written letters of remorse.
3 You have participated in charitable activities. You've
4 written an Insight Statement which was very powerful.
5 You also have a Crime Impact Statement that we read,
6 also very telling about your current mental state. And
7 you have also participated in a lot of self-help groups.
8 It's clear that you have grown from them, not only from
9 the groups that you have participated in, but in some of
10 the activities you have engaged in, too, going way back
11 to your time at Lancaster on the Honor Yard and
12 subsequently at Tehachapi, I believe it was, where you
13 worked in the hospice --
14 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: CMC.
15 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Was that CMC --
16 in the hospice group and that seems to have had a
17 powerful impact on you as well. But these are all ways
18 of giving back to your community, in this case, the
19 prison environment. You also talked at length about
20 embracing a peaceful approach to conflict resolution
21 and, you know, on first blush that, you know, we might
22 have thought well, you know what, he's just saying that
23 because he knows that's what he's got to say in order to
24 get out of prison. But no, as the hearing progressed,
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1 it was very clear that you do, in your heart, you do
2 believe that. And there is absolutely no evidence in
3 your prison behavior for a number of years, decades now,
4 that would suggest that you still maintain those violent
5 ideations. And so, we put those two together and
6 arrived at our conclusion today. You're also at the age
7 of 54 next month, that reduces the probability of
8 recidivism. When you were young, you were susceptible
9 to some of that peer pressure, but clearly, you've
10 significantly matured since that time. And a lot of
11 those aspects of youth impulsivity and recklessness, et
12 cetera have not been demonstrated in your prison
13 behavior for many, many years. Instead, you've
14 participated in a lot of self-help, meaningful
15 self-help. You talked today -- just today we heard your
16 testimony about what you got out of the Houses of
17 Healing, the CGA group, the Nonviolent Communications
18 courses, the anger management, and how you deal with
19 anger today. There's a long list of courses that you
20 provided us and it's all in the -- in the record as
21 well. Unfortunately, you were in Level IV facilities
22 for the majority of your incarceration. So you're kind
23 of making up for lost time in the last few years, but
24 you haven't been shy about asking for help, and that was
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1 not a characteristic that you held at the time of the
2 crime. So all of these are positive developments. We
3 also looked at your history of 115s. You've had ten
4 serious 115s, but you haven't had any violence since
5 1998, and I don't think you've had a 115 since 2001, so
6 that's well in the rearview mirror now. You had also a
7 number of counseling chronos but that wasn't factored
8 into our decision. The Panel is aware that you have
9 realistic parole plans. You have parole plans here in
10 California, as well as in Armenia. And you have not
11 only family support but you have multiple job offers in
12 Armenia as a cook, and restaurant, and maintenance at an
13 HOA, I believe. So you have avenues to support yourself
14 out in the free community. More importantly, you have
15 the -- apparently, a lot of love and support from family
16 who want to see you do well and not regress into the
17 activity that led to the crime. You also have a lot of
18 marketable skills. You had some skills before --
19 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
20 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- you came to
21 prison and then you have developed further skills in
22 machine shop, electronics technology, culinary, and
23 other skills that you can put to use in the community.
24 So the Panel today -- the only real issue that we talked
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1 about during our deliberation at some length really had
2 to do with the crime itself. I mean this is --
3 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
4 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- an extremely
5 egregious crime. It's not one that we see every day.
6 The assassination of a public official is not the type
7 of murder that we see every day. And obviously, there
8 is a lot of community consternation over that. But we
9 felt that at this point, there is not -- the crime
10 itself -- there's not sufficient evidence there to
11 overcome the presumption of a grant today. So with
12 that, I'm going to ask Commissioner Reardon for his
13 comments.
14 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Thank you,
15 Commissioner. I first want to address the life crime.
16 Horrible, cowardly, despicable act. I don't think you
17 would disagree. It was horrible in 1982. It is
18 horrible today. It's going to be horrible 50 years from
19 now. I don't think you disagree. For all intents and
20 purposes, the victim, Kemal Arikan, family man, wife,
21 daughter, doing his job for his country and you because
22 of your misguided youth and your anger and your
23 misguided rage and your crime partner got him down in
24 cold blood. Victims are still apparently in fear of
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1 their lives, still in hiding. Not only did you attack
2 an individual and make his family without their father
3 your crime (inaudible) to the sovereignty of a country.
4 So Commissioner is right, it's a very, very unusual
5 crime, very, very serious. However, Lawrence tells us
6 that, even the relevant inquiry into the (inaudible)
7 circumstances of the commitment offense, when considered
8 in light of the other facts of the record are such that
9 they continue to be predictive of current dangerousness
10 many years after the commission of the offense. So
11 that's what we're looking at. Is there something about
12 the commitment offense, some other evidence we saw today
13 that would -- that would make the commitment offense
14 still evidence or probative of current dangerous, and we
15 looked and we looked and we looked, and we didn't find
16 anything. That's not to diminish how serious and how
17 brutally violent and cowardly this commitment offense
18 was. Very, very disturbing. The presumption of the
19 Penal Code Section is though that you are presumed
20 suitable for parole unless there's evidence of -- that
21 further more time in custody is necessary to protect the
22 public or you're currently a risk of danger. So that's
23 what we looked at today. You talked about your
24 education. I think -- you were very honest about it.
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1 Not everybody will say, I basically -- I'm done with
2 education. So we appreciate your candor. You had a
3 solid work history. You do have marketable skills. We
4 talked a lot about your disciplinary record and that
5 goes to the Youthful factors. Even though you're over
6 the age of you know 23, we did see a young, reckless
7 individual enter prison and have a hard time adjusting.
8 You talked about that, not following the rules, but that
9 stopped it looked like after a while. You haven't had a
10 115 since 2001. You haven't had any 115s involving
11 violence since 1998. So that's something we looked at.
12 Your programming, I think is what we look for. We don't
13 look for inmates who show up with a stack of chronos who
14 tell us, look at all these classes I took but when we
15 talk about them, they have no clue what we're talking
16 about. Internalizing programming, you might have heard
17 that term before --
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
19 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- and, I too, was
20 somewhat impressed by the fact that this was coming out
21 of you, you weren't reading anything. Every time you
22 wanted to pull out a document, I said no, you don't have
23 to read it to me, tell me about it, and you were able to
24 do so. It's not a test, but it's indicative of somebody
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1 who actually took programming, internalized it, and used
2 it. So that was also important. You do have solid
3 parole plans both in Armenia and here. I don't know
4 what's going to happen. I'm not INS or ICE. It sounds
5 like you're going to be deported, but you have support
6 there. We had a long conversation about what happens if
7 you go to Armenia, is this going to start again. And we
8 try to decide this case on the facts before us. There
9 was a lot of political issues going on at the time but
10 we are confident even if you go back to Armenia, that
11 based upon the individual that presented today and the
12 work that he's done, we don't see that as an issue. We
13 actually believe that, if you are in Armenia and
14 somebody came up to you and said, yeah, let's start this
15 revolution, you're probably going to -- you know, you're
16 probably going to say, I'm just too tired for that. So
17 that's something else we talked about. We were
18 concerned about the letter in 2012 to the Armenian
19 Solider and we talked about that in length. But to your
20 credit, you didn't deny you did it. You did say it was
21 a bad idea and arguments were made both ways that there
22 was code language in there, you know, to make it look
23 like you were fermenting some kind of revolt or
24 revolution, and there's a play meaning of the words.
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1 Today you say it was a bad idea, I shouldn't have done
2 it. So that was 2012, you know, four or five years ago.
3 We didn't think that by itself was enough to indicate
4 current dangerousness. The other issue, too, is the
5 doctor made this statement on the bottom of page 20, at
6 the same time it appears he has not done everything he
7 can to disassociate himself from Armenia politics and
8 those who may still be interested in violence. We
9 discussed that at length. If there's a Facebook page
10 out there, there's only so much you can do about that.
11 If you show up on the Facebook page, and it looks like
12 it's you, then we got a whole other -- a whole another
13 issue; right? But we looked at that very carefully
14 because there's some things you can control and some
15 things you can't. You could control writing that letter
16 to the Armenian Solider. You did that, you know today
17 that was a poor choice. I just would hope that any
18 opportunity you get now, that you take the opportunity
19 to distance yourself from those people who do view you
20 as a hero, do view you as a martyr. Because that's not
21 how you see yourself. You see yourself as a weak human
22 being who committed a despicable act. You're a murderer
23 and you'll always be a murderer. And I know it's not a
24 fact of suitability, but the support letter from your
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1 mother, I mean to us, we looked at that, the promise you
2 made to her. So when we considered all the evidence, we
3 did not find any factors of unsuitability that would
4 lead us to believe that you are today a current
5 unreasonable risk of danger to the public. We spent a
6 long time talking about every aspect of your case,
7 specifically the opposition. That letter from the
8 Turkish official, it was a 12-page letter, had a lot of
9 information in there and a lot of salient points which
10 we went through very carefully, a lot of exhibits and
11 attachments. A lot of that information was from the
12 past. If the sole deciding factor was the serious and
13 violent nature of the commitment offense, that'd be a
14 whole another subject and there'd be a lot more people
15 in prison. You were LWOP'ed in 1982. Had you remained
16 LWOP, you wouldn't be talking to the Board of Parole
17 Hearings. In 2002, your sentence got changed to life
18 with. So life with parole necessarily means that upon
19 presentation to the Board and a finding of suitability,
20 you can -- you can be found suitable for parole and
21 that's what we did today. So I hope that you realize
22 that the hard work is just going to start for you now.
23 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes, sir.
24 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: Wherever you go the
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1 work -- it's going to be a lot of hard work for you.
2 You have a lot of people, especially in Armenia that, I
3 don't know what they're expecting, if they think you're
4 the savior and you're going to lead Armenia into the
5 next century, I don't know what, but that doesn't seem
6 like you. You appear to be a passionate guy and the old
7 Sassounian was passionate with violence. It appeared to
8 us today that the Sassounian that's changed still has
9 the passion but not the violence, and that's okay. You
10 can have political views. But taken to extremes and you
11 meet the wrong people, you've seen what happens.
12 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
13 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: So we're hoping
14 that you have learned that lesson, and from everything
15 we saw today, we believe that you had. So a lot of work
16 is ahead for you. I concur with the Commissioner today
17 about the finding of suitability for the reasons that
18 she stated and the reasons that I stated. So hopefully,
19 all this hard work that you've done, you will not put to
20 waste, and you will never forget that living amends to
21 the victim.
22 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Absolutely.
23 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: You know you can't
24 take it back, but I asked you about living amends and
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1 what you could do, because that's a horrible thing
2 that's never going to go away. You live to be 100,
3 that's never going to go away. So with that, I will
4 return it to the Commissioner.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: All right. Thank
6 you. Mr. Sassounian, we looked at the Comprehensive
7 Risk Assessment prepared by Dr. Spain in September of
8 this year. The doctor considered those Youthful
9 factors, primarily the hallmark features of youth and
10 the subsequent growth and maturation. And Dr. Spain
11 found that you present a statistically low risk for
12 violence, which clearly supports our decision. Now, we
13 want to make you aware that while we have concluded that
14 you do not pose an unreasonable risk of danger to
15 society, our decision is not final. It does require
16 some additional review. And if a change is made to our
17 decision, then you will be notified of that in writing.
18 Okay? We did update the term calculation to add your
19 good time credits. The last Panel did update the term
20 calc with the base offense of First-Degree Murder. The
21 base term was 30 years after applying the proper matrix.
22 So then we tried to finalize the term calculation but
23 there's a little glitch in our system that doesn't allow
24 us to make certain changes. And apparently, the life
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1 term start date that is currently reflected in the file
2 started when you were converted from LWOP to life
3 with --
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- and we
6 couldn't change that. Long story short is there is an
7 error in your calculation. But once our decision gets
8 to Sacramento, they will look at it and they will fix
9 it. But I did want to let you know that our calculation
10 is based on eight serious 115s. You had eight in
11 different years that were serious, including '85, '86,
12 '87, '89, '92, '95, '98, and 2001. So you don't get any
13 good time credits for those years. Buy you did receive
14 satisfactory credits for the balance of the time that
15 you have been in prison. So this should clearly be a
16 passed date at this point. And so that'll all be
17 reviewed and adjusted.
18 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Okay.
19 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay? But I had
20 to put that --
21 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yes.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: -- on the record.
23 Special conditions of parole, as Commissioner Reardon
24 pointed out, we have no control over what ICE is going
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1 to do. But if you are allowed to remain in this
2 country, you need to report to the nearest parole
3 office.
4 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Yeah.
5 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Okay?
6 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: I know.
7 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: And they will
8 place on you the appropriate conditions of parole, the
9 standard conditions of parole. The additional
10 conditions that we would place is that you -- that you
11 participate in a residential housing program for at
12 least six months. You've been in prison for a long
13 time, many things have changed, and you really need to
14 get acclimated back to society. And you have a couple
15 of options there, so not a problem there. Also, that
16 you distance yourself from any of the politics that led
17 you down this road, anything you can do in that regard,
18 and continue to make your living amends. I think that
19 will serve you, your community, and everyone well.
20 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: That's a
21 suggestion, not a special condition --
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: No.
23 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: -- of parole.
24 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: That's just a
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1 recommendation. Along with the recommendation that
2 you -- until this decision becomes final, you need to
3 stay disciplinary-free, continue with your self-help
4 program. Okay? And keep your parole plans current.
5 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Absolutely. I just want to
6 thank the Commissioners that, you know, for your -- for
7 your advice, for this decision, and I assure this
8 parole -- excuse me, this Panel that my making amends
9 will last the rest of my life. That violence will never
10 be part of my life again. And the rest of my life, I
11 was -- I'm going to prove to this Panel that you did not
12 make a mistake today. And --
13 DEPUTY COMMISSIONER REARDON: And then we say,
14 show us, don't tell us.
15 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: You got it. That's a deal.
16 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: All right.
17 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Thank you very much.
18 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: Good deal. Thank
19 you very much. Good luck to you, sir.
20 INMATE SASSOUNIAN: Thank you very much,
21 Commissioners. Thank you.
22 PRESIDING COMMISSIONER MONTES: It's five
23 o'clock. We're adjourned.
24 A D J O U R N M E N T
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1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9 THIS TRANSCRIPT CONTAINS THE PROPOSED DECISION OF THE
10 BOARD OF PAROLE HEARINGS (BOARD) ANNOUNCED AT YOUR
11 RECENT BOARD HEARING AND IS PROVIDED TO YOU IN
12 COMPLIANCE WITH PENAL CODE SECTION 3041.5, SUBDIVISION
13 (A)(4), AND CALIFORNIA CODE OF REGULATIONS, TITLE 15,
14 SECTION 2254. THIS PROPOSED DECISION WILL BECOME FINAL
15 WITHIN 120 DAYS OF THE DATE OF THE HEARING AS REQUIRED
16 BY PENAL CODE SECTION 3041, SUBDIVISION (B), UNLESS THE
17 BOARD NOTIFIES YOU IN WRITING BEFORE THEN THAT THE
18 PROPOSED DECISION HAS BEEN MODIFIED, VACATED OR REFERRED
19 TO THE FULL BOARD, SITTING EN BANC, DUE TO AN ERROR OF
20 LAW, ERROR OF FACT OR NEW INFORMATION PURSUANT TO
21 CALIFORNIA CODE OF REGULATIONS, TITLE 15, SECTION 2042.
22 THEREAFTER, THE GOVERNOR HAS AUTHORITY TO REVIEW THE
23 BOARD'S DECISION AND AFFIRM, MODIFY, OR REVERSE IT
24 PURSUANT TO PENAL CODE SECTIONS 3041.1 AND 3041.2.
25 HARRY SASSOUNIAN C-88440 DECISION PAGE 22 12/14/16
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CERTIFICATE AND
DECLARATION OF TRANSCRIBER
I, Robyn K. Bowen, as the Official Transcriber, hereby certify that the attached proceedings:
In the matter of the Life ) CDC Number: C-88440 Term Parole Consideration ) Hearing of: ) ) HARRY SASSOUNIAN ) )
SAN QUENTIN STATE PRISON
SAN QUENTIN, CALIFORNIA
DECEMBER 14, 2016
9:30 A.M.
were held as herein appears. Further, this transcript is a true, complete, and accurate record, to the best of my ability, of the recorded material provided for transcription.
______Robyn K. Bowen December 23, 2016 Northern California Court Reporters Copyright 2016/All Rights Reserved by BPH
Northern California Court Reporters