Fifth Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature

of the

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba

DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS

Official Report (Hansard)

Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker

Vol. XLIX No. 60 - 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, July 14, 1999

ISSN 0542-5492 MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

Thirty-Sixth Legislature

Member Constituency Political Affiliation

ASHTON, Steve Thompson N.D.P. BARRETT, Becky WeJlington N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUAY, Louise, Hon. Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary Concordia N.D.P. DOWNEY, James Arthur-Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Albert Steinbach P.C. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside P.C. EVANS, Clif Interlake N.D.P. EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East N.D.P. FAURSCHOU, David Portage Ia Prairie P.C. FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen Springfield P.C. FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley N.D.P. GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa P.C. HEL WER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns N.D.P. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek P.C. McCRAE, James, Hon. Brandon West P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane Osborne N.D.P. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia P.C. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn St. James N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East P.C. NEWMAN, David, Hon. Riel P.C. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PITURA, Frank, Hon. Moms P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet P.C. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. River Heights P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack, Hon. Niakwa P.C. RENDER, Shirley, Hon. St. Vital P.C. ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Gladstone P.C. SALE, Tim Crescentwood N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Broadway N.D.P. STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirkfield Park P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin N.D.P. SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye P.C. TOEWS, Vic, Hon. Rossmere P.C. TWEED, Mervin, Hon. Turtle Mountain P.C. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River N.D.P. Vacant St. Boniface 4263

LEGISLATIV E ASSEMBLY OF MA NITOBA

Wednesday, July 14, 1999

The House met at 1:30 p. m. Public Insurance for the three months ended May 31, 1999. Thank you.

PRAYERS ORA L QU ESTION PERIOD

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Virology Lab Wastewater PRE SENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPE CIAL COMMITTEE S Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, the 2,000 litres of discharge Committee of Supply into the river system from the federal lab with the other public issues of the Ebola virus and the Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): hantavirus and other issues that are of concernto Madam Speaker. the Committee of Supply has the public, there is obviously a lot of public been considering a motion regarding con­ concern about the revelation yesterday that this currence in Supply, directs me to report amount of litres went into our water supply on progress, and asks leave to sit again. I move, June 23. seconded by the honourable member fo r LaVerendrye (Mr. Sveinson), that the report of I would like to ask the Premier what action the committee be received. did his minister take on June 24. Did we write the fe deral Minister of Health, Mr. Rock, on our Motion agreed to. concerns, and could the minister table that in the House today? Introduction of Guests Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, Environment): Madam Speaker, I thank my would like to draw the attention of all honourable friend for the question, and I am honourable members to the loge to my left presuming he did receive material on the where we have with us this afternoon Dr. Guizar licensing that I forwarded to his office earlier Cheema, the fo rmer member for The Maples. today as requested yesterday. I should indicate to the Leader of the Opposition that on the 24th On behalf of all honourable members, of June the department itself was just being welcome you this afternoon. notified. The member may recall that both the deputy and I were at the international environ­ Hon. Linda Mci ntosh (Minister of mental conference with the fe deral minister on Env ironment): Madam Speaker, I wonder if I another issue at that time. The department, could have permission to revert momentarily to though, when they did receive the notificationon reports. the 24th, immediately contacted the provincial health authorities and the city health authorities. Madam Speaker: Does the honourable Minister The city had been alerted the day before. The of Environment have leave to revert to Tabling health authorities then made the determination as ofReports? [agreed] to whether or not there was a safety hazard and made a determination as to there being no health TABLING OF REPORTS hazard, and what kind of notification needed to be made was, of course, in their purview. Hon. Linda Mci ntosh (Minister of Environ­ ment): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to table For our part, Madam Speaker, the depart­ the quarterly financial report for the Manitoba ment then began to immediately look at the envi- 4264 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999 ronmental aspects of the incident which, of like that issued by the lab just to keep people up course, is their mandate, and subsequently when to date as to the types of things that are the deputy and I returned, I was notified. By happening there for interim information in the then, of course, corrective action had been put in absence ofhazard but just for information. place by senior department officials, as they are mandated to do. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, it seems to me that the 2,000 litres of material released to the river Communication has taken place with senior would have indicated the intervention with the fe deral officials, in answer to the member's fe deral government at the highest level, minister question on that. to minister, on June 24, not when it becomes a public issue that we make public statements. I * (1335) am disappointed that the minister has not taken Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, it is in the public more urgent action with the people who opened now that they have been notified, but the this lab and gave us guarantees at the time that considerable concern and the danger that people we would be safe and that this fac ility was fe el about these 2,000 litres that were discharged absolutely safe of human error, was fa ilproof. into the river system, why did the minister not write the fe deral minister upon immediately Madam Speaker, a further question to the knowing of this? Why did we not take our minister. When I read Sections 19 and 20 of the concerns directly to the top? Surely the public licence, it does provide, in my view, a urgency of this matter and the public permissive authority, the licence issued by the considerations and ramifications indicate that we province, to discharge materials to the river should be communicating at the highest level. system subject to the monitoring of the facility Why has the minister not and the Premier (Mr. itself and the treatment by the fac ility itself. Filmon) not done that with the fe deral government? So is the minister not in agreement that the statement made by the fo rmer minister that these Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, the member materials would be contained-the licence is should know, I believe I did indicate, that permissive and the authority to do so is with the communication began immediately the province lab itself. was notified between the province and the fe deral government and between the city and the Mrs. Mci ntosh: Madam Speaker, the member fe deral government. There has been a tremen­ asked a question like this yesterday. It was dous amount of work going on between and worded a little differently, but it had some of the amongst the engineers at the city and provincial same content that I took as notice. So I will levels in terms of examining processes. Indeed, maybe answer both with my response now. senior officials have been taking a look at processes, and no work will be proceeding in the In terms of discharges from the lab, as the higher level lab until those procedures are member knows or as citizens do know, there are verifiedas being pure. three kinds of water. There is sterile water that is absolutely sterilized; there is normal water that Madam Speaker, I would expect that at the would have things in it but not of a health meeting that is scheduled to take place next hazard; and then there is contaminated water week between the city, the province and the which will have a variety of contaminants fr om fe deral government, which was established some mild to serious. Any wastewater coming out of time ago, a meeting to come together to take a the lab is to be in the sterile category. It has to look at all of the ramifications of that incident to be disinfected; it has to go through a series of ensure that there can be no repeat, I think is quite steps; it has to be sterilized. What happened in in keeping with the rules and processes laid this instance is that ordinary water came out down, given that in this incident there was no instead of sterilized water. That water, even health hazard. though it was just water from washing, et cetera, We are also taking a look, as well, at has to be sterilized, and that is the point of perhaps having quarterly reports or something concern here. It is a concern, I believe, that is July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4265 well aware of at the senior levels in the fe deral Mrs. Mci ntosh: Madam Speaker, no, nobody government, certainly is at the senior levels in approved the discharge of nonsterilized water the fe deral laboratory. I see my time is up, and I into the water system. That is the point that our will continue on with the next question. environmental officials are making now. The environmental officials are currently enforcing Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, it is this the act now as we speak and as of last week and government- the week before. When the member says that the licence is permissive, then it begs the Madam Speaker: Order, please, with a new question, if the licence is permissive, why are question. the environmental officialsenf orcing a breach of the licence? The reality of what is happening * (1340) proves the inaccuracy of his premise.

Mr. Doer: New question, yes. This govern­ But the water coming out of the lab, and I ment and this minister or the previous minister will say it again because this is the point that issued the licence, and the licence says: the needs to be recognized, is to be sterilized. In licensee, i.e., the lab, under Section 20, shall this instance it was not, and so they are going to ensure that the waste management systems are have to change their procedures before they can fu lly commissioned prior to the operation of repeat that process and before higher level lab Level 3 and Level 4 of the laboratory which is work contaminants enter there. the Ebola virus and other very serious viruses. This is a self-monitoring licence. Mr. Doer: On the one hand you say it is not self-monitoring, on the other hand you say the I would like to ask the minister if she is director did not approve the discharge. Given satisfied, given the human error already, that a the fact that the discharge could deal with human self-monitoring licence that has been given by error with items such as the Ebola virus, Madam this government to the lab is sufficient for the Speaker, surely to goodness the minister: (a) public safety in Manitoba. would be concerned about her own system of licensing; (b) she would want to halt the Mrs. Mci ntosh: Madam Speaker, I think issuance of this licence immediately and ensure perhaps the member is misinterpreting which that there is some other inspection measure in director is being referred to in the No. 20 that he between the licensee and the river system and is reading. If he is looking, he will see that this the people of Manitoba. Why can we not have particular licence is in fact signed by a director that change in the licence? of environment not of the lab. Mrs. Mci ntosh: I indicate-[interjection] The But, at any rate, what I indicate to the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), from his member is that the lab itself cannot discharge seat, has said that I should not have been in contaminated water as a condition of its licence committee yesterday. I should have been here out of the contained lab. That is the bottom line; rather than in committee. Madam Speaker, I that is the heart of the matter. It is something indicate to the member for Thompson that- that the province, the fe deral government andthe City of Winnipeg will not see happen. I think Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. that he is misreading that particular section. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honour­ Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, given the fact that able Minister of Environment has been this lab is error fr ee, and that was stated when recognized to respond to the question. the fe deral and provincial representatives attended a press conference to cut the 1 ibbon, Mrs. Mci ntosh: Thank you very much, Madam and given the language of permissiveness in this Speaker. I guess the member is again asking a licence, is the minister saying then that their question when reality has already answered it. director did approve the discharge of these 2,000 The department officials, the Department of litres into the river system? Environment, the City of Winnipeg, the public 4266 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999 health officers, both provincial and city levels, fo r a fa ster and earlier delivery of this lab at the the city engineers, the provincial engineers, and time, when he would rise in the House and say: the people from the fe deral government have build it faster, build it sooner. Hurry. In fact, I been working together on this very issue to see will quote, if the member opposite is saying that that the very things that he asks happen, happen. this process was too speedy, that we have the Leader of the Opposition saying: why are we So, Madam Speaker, the member is either having to wait so long? When will we see the saying that he does not have confidence in the subject of this environment licence? When will scientists who work for the department to know we see the approval of the capital projects this their work or he is saying that the processes that year fo r the fe deral government? Let us have the we are going through right now are not shovels in the ground right now rather than have happening. They are indeed happening. this disease lab delayed and delayed and delayed, et cetera. * (1345)

Virology Lab That is what the Leader of the Opposition Clean Environment Commission Hearing s was saying, putting on the pressure to speed through the licensing process, which we did not Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Madam do. We did not do that as a government. We Speaker, my questions are to the Minister of took the time to do it properly, despite his pleas Environment. to do otherwise. It shows the wisdom of our department that we did it that way. Under The Environment Act, the minister has the right to call Clean Environment Mr. Dewar: Madam Speaker, my supple- Commission hearings on any proposed develop­ mentary question is to the minister. ment in this province. In fact, the government held hearings on the licensing of the BFI waste Does the minister think that this issue is not disposal site. Presumably this project is just as important enough, not serious enough to have serious and requires vigorous investigation. been reviewed by the Clean Environment Commission? My question to the minister: why did this minister not call Clean Environment Commis­ Mrs. Mc intosh : I am being given a lot of sion hearings when the fe deral government advice, and I appreciate it. I guess I say to the applied to operate this laboratory? member that the process gone through fo r this particular enterprise was rigorous, was vigorous, Hon. Linda Mci ntosh (Minister of Env iron­ was held to international standards, was beyond ment): Madam Speaker, I will indicate, of the standards of other simple labs like hospital course, that I could not have called anything; I labs, fo r example. hospital labs and even high was not minister at the time, but that is beside school chemistry labs that every day put the point. contaminated water into the sewer system. We have a much higher standard for this type of lab. Madam Speaker, the fact is there was a very strenuous licensing process. A Lab 4 licence There was a lot of public information goes through a very vigorous and rigorous available at the time, a lot of debate at the time, a assessment. There are standards that are lot of public input at the time, and I have national and international in scope fo r a fac ility confidence that the process gone through at that of this type. It is much, much more than merely time was a process that will put in place safety a provincial undertaking. It is a standard it has and security fo r the people of Manitoba. to meet. There are only a handful of labs of this stature in the world that have criteria that they The fact that we are pausing now, Madam must meet. Speaker, to look at a breach of the protocols is, I think. a very significant indication of our I would remind the Leader of the Opposition concern as to the importance of this issue, that (Mr. Doer) that he was the Leader who pressed we have said everything has to stop while this is July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4267 investigated indicates that we are taking it very heating facility separate from that of the city's seriously indeed. This is not a light or a waste disposal unit. These are the two violations laughing matter, nor is it one that should be and breaches ofthe licence. played politics with. It is far too serious fo r that. Why did the honourable minister not Public Consultations temporarily suspend or revoke the licence because of these breaches? Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Madam Speaker, asking questions here about public Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Env iron­ involvement, how was the public involved? ment): Madam Speaker, with apologies, I heard How was the public consulted in the licensing of the second question but not the first. I tried very this project? hard to hear the first question, but there was quite a bit of noise in here. I wonder if the Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Env iron­ member could repeat the first question, and I ment): Madam Speaker, I will obtain for the will answer both of them. If everybody could be member a detailed outlining of the input that was quiet so I could hear it, I would appreciate that, provided by the public. I will provide that to too. him. I am surprised that they would not know, given that it was the Leader of the Opposition Madam Speaker: The honourable member fo r (Mr. Doer) and the member fo r Burrows (Mr. Broadway, to quickly repeat the question. Martindale) who fe lt this was a very good enhancement to his neighbourhood and said so Mr. Santos: Madam Speaker, I can only ask on the record in Hansard, that it was much better one question at a time. than the asphalt plant. Given the intense lobbying by the opposition at the time to press Madam Speaker: The honourable member for ahead with the project and take shortcuts to get it Broadway, to clarify the question asked. up and running quickly, I am surprised he does not know that we annoyed them by taking too Mr. Santos: I am obedient, Madam Speaker, so long to allow the information to come through I will pose the question again. fo r proper assessment of this project. Despite the two violations of the conditions I think it is a passing-strange commentary of the licence, namely the lack of instant they are making now after the fa ct, but I will get notification within a 12-hour period and the lack that information for him so he can be reminded of separate sterilized treatment facilities of the of who it was that tried to hold this project up by waste separate from the heating treatment of the doing a proper assessment. Who was it that tried city, why did the minister not temporarily to ram it through in order to get the political suspend the licence ofthe licensee? points that they tried to claim credit fo r, by the way? They tried to say it was their project. Mrs. Mcintosh : Madam Speaker, I would think the fact that no work can proceed until the * (1350) situation is rectified is an indication that we do not want to see any work proceeding until the Virology Lab situation is rectified in that particular area. We Env ironmental Licence Suspension are doing what the member has asked. It is a virtual suspension, as the Premier (Mr. Filmon) Mr. Conrad Santos {Broadway ): My questions says, because they cannot do the work. are to the honourable Minister of Environment. [interjection] It is true. I thank the Premier fo r As the facts are known as of this time, there are the use of the right words there because they can at least two breaches, two violations cf the continue with the lower level work. But any licence, the fact that notification was not higher level work has to wait now, and that is the presented within the 12-hour period, and the same as a suspension. They cannot proceed until second violation is that the liquid effluent and the city and the province are satisfied that it is the waste were not sterilized in a separate safe to proceed. 4268 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999

So, Madam Speaker, he is asking me to do asked by the member fo r Broadway about the what I have already done, and I presume he is evacuation plan, not the rambling nonsense that asking because he is concerned about the people we just heard fr om this minister. of Winnipeg, which is why we have done what we have done, because we are also concerned Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honour­ about the people of this province. able Minister of Environment, on the same point of order. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mrs. Mci ntosh: Madam Speaker, I hardly think Madam Speaker: Order, please. I have not yet asking that this matter be treated seriously to be recognized the honourable member fo r considered rambling-whatever he called it. Broadway. An Honourable Member: Rambling nonsense. Emerg ency Response Plan Mrs. Mci ntosh: "Rambling nonsense" is what Mr. Conrad Santos (B roadway ): Madam he said. Madam Speaker. I think asking that a Speaker, according to the conditions of the matter like this be taken seriously is not licence, again, there is supposed to be an rambling nonsense. emergency response plan in place in case of accidents of leakage like this one. If there is Having said that Madam Speaker, I would such a plan, can the minister table it fo r the be pleased to go straight to my answer, if he is benefitof this House? concerned that I am drawing observations to the attention of the public he does not want the Hon. Linda Mci ntosh (Minister of Environ­ public to know about. ment): Madam Speaker, I do think this is a very serious topic. I know we have heckling that Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point goes back and fo rth on subjects of lesser of order raised by the honourable member fo r importance sometimes, but I think on this topic it Thompson (Mr. Ashton), I would remind the belittles the issue itself to have the opposition honourable Minister of Environment to respond doing what they are doing while the serious to the question asked. topic like this is being discussed. This is not something to play politics with. It is a serious- * * *

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mrs. Mci ntosh: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. There are emergency procedures in * (1355) place obviously. With a lab of this sophistica­ tion, they are very precise, and they apparently all went into action immediately, so the reports Point of Order tell me. I was not there, but the reports have indicated that when the tap was accidentally Mr. SteveAshton (Opposition House Leader): turned on, before the sterilization process was On a point of order, Madam Speaker, this complete, all of the alarn1 systems and minister is doing it again. Her comments might everything else that is in place there immediately have perhaps been appropriate on a point of signified that to the people working in the order. She was not recognized on a point of facility. order. She was supposed to be answering a question, and, incidentally, all we were doing As well, the only area in terms of from our seats was asking the minister to give a communication that was breached was that-and real answer to a very serious issue. it is a serious one and we are taking it seriously; we are consulting with legal counsel to see if in So I would like to ask you to have this fact it should be pursued through the courts in minister called to order, and under Beauchesne terms of an infraction in enforcement-they are Citation 417, answer the very serious question then to notify immediately the city and July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4269 provincial authorities with a maximum time type of thing could be covered by, et cetera. limit of 12 hours. They did not notify the What form that process could take to be really province till the next day, and that is a breach of effective I am not certain, but I think it is the protocol that should not have occurred. something that we should talk about because part Having said that, though, once the notification to of having confidence is to have knowledge. I the province did take place, the health authorities think the member has made a good point there were immediately contacted, et cetera, and all of that part of the confidence is knowledge, and we the emergency processes kicked into place. The will look at that seriously. flaw here was that there was not immediate * (1400) notification, and that we are working upon. Folklorama Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Financial Assistance Broadway, with a final supplementary question. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Public Meeting Request Speaker, my question is for the Premier (Mr. Filmon). Every year fo r two weeks of the Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway ): Madam summer Manitobans are provided the oppor­ Speaker, given that all governments are stewards tunity to tour the world through our world­ of the people, particularly the residents renowned Folklorama, which has been hugely surrounding the area of the microbiology successful over the years. Due to the Pan Am laboratory, that kind of responsibility calls fo r Games, it is no longer two weeks, it is eight reporting to the residents themselves as to the days, which has resulted in a number of the state or nature of the condition. Would the pavilions looking at . losing, from what I honourable minister be willing to call a public understand, money. In the past the government meeting and pacify the anxiety and fe ar of all the has assisted pavilions. residents in the area? My question to the Premier is: is the Premier Hon. Linda Mci ntosh (Minister of prepared to look at giving financial assistance to Env ironment): Madam Speaker, I thank my our pavilions to ensure, because of the honourable friend for that question because I shortening of the two-week period, that there be quite understand what he is saying about people some form of compensation? and their fe elings on this issue. We are having a Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Culture, meeting next week, and one of the subjects I Heritag e and Citiz enship): Madam Speaker, have asked my officials to discuss at some my department does work very closely with the length with the people from other jurisdictions is organizers of Folklorama. It is a little bit too the whole process of communication. As you early to determine whether or not there will be know, the Department of Environment is any losses or any concerns in that area, so I concerned with the environmental aspects to would think that we should, in fact, let ensure that safety is there, that there are no Folklorama, which is very successful-I health hazards. That is why we said no work to participated last evening as did many others. Let continue until this is corrected, et cetera. us see how, in fact, things go. To my knowledge, of the fe stivals that have been The health authorities, in this instance, were organized to accommodate the Pan Am Games, the ones to decide whether or not a public the two which are complete have been highly communication was required, not that it was successful. We have every reason to believe that secret, but they decided they did not need to Folklorama will be very successful, as it always make a public announcement because there was has been. no health hazard. However, we are having public discussions about it now, and I think that Mr. Lamoureux : Madam Speaker, I look to the there might be some merit in having some form Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship­ of standard communication available, whereby and I must say I agree, it will be successful reports on a regular basis go out to the public because of the volunteers-to have the minister indicating what is happening in the lab, that this acknowledge the fact that in the past the 4270 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999

governmenthas assisted Folklorama, that in fact Minister of Mines to provide a precise location the numbers are considerably down, as high as of abandoned mine sites in Manitoba, sites up to, as I have been told from some, 30 percent. which are potentially hazardous to our environ­ Would the minister not acknowledge that, yes, ment. Today I received a letter from the there could be a need then to assist our pavilions minister, and unfortunately, precise locations of to ensure the long-term viability through some old abandoned mine sites were not indicated. form of assistance, just for this year? Will the minister admit that his government Mrs. Vodrey : Madam Speaker, the member's does not know where the exact location of these question is purely hypothetical. We are barely old mine sites are, where companies drilled, halfway through Folklorama now, and for my blasted and extracted metals and ores, where part I would like to continue to have confidence those wastes remain, that this minister does not in its ongoing success. We will look at the very know where there are or what the potential end to see if, in fact, there is any need required. environmental risk of metal leachates, which include copper, lead or arsenic, where those Education Sy stem leachates are or what their potential environ­ Standards Testing Breach Investigation mental hazard is? Will this minister admit that he does not know where those sites are? Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster}: Madam Speaker, on a new issue to the Minister of Hon. Dav id Newman (Minister of Energy and Education. It has been leaked that the Mines}: Madam Speaker, I will not so Department of Education will, in fact, be acknowledge. conducting an independent investigation. My question for the Minister of Education: will he Madam Speaker: The honourable member for now formally make it public that there will, St. James, with a supplementary question. indeed, be an independent investigation, and does the minister know who is going to be An Honourable Member: MaryAnn, you were heading that independent investigation? the inspector; you know where they are.

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education Madam Speaker: Order, please. and Training): Madam Speaker, as I have told the honourable member, I was very, very Ms. Mihychuk: The Minister of Mines should carefully considering the steps that should be know where they are. taken in light of the matters that have been made known. I believe that it is important that there Madam Speaker: Order, please. This is not a be public confidence in a system of standards time for debate. The honourable member was and standards examinations in our province-wide recognized fo r a supplementary question. system. I believe that damage has been done to that public confidence. Ms. Mihy chuk: Madam Speaker, can the minister explain why he has not taken a serious I believe that an independent review is review of where these old abandoned mines are needed in this matter. and I am making that located and ensure that the environmental known today. But I am also saying to the condition of these abandoned mines is safe? Is honourable member that details about the he wiiling to assure Manitobans that those sites mandate of the review and the person selected are environmentally safe or not? for that review will be made known in the very near future. Mr. Newman: Madam Speaker, the Depart­ ment of Environment has the responsibility to Mining Industry deal with the environmental inspections and the Abandoned Mine Sites consequences relating to the Department of Mines, and operating mines in the past. We, of Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam course, have just during the past fe w months Speaker, during Estimates last month I asked the approved and put into place environmental July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4271 rehabilitation regulations which are second to facility, to those doctors, to those nurses and to none, approved of by the industry, and ensure the cardiac patients. that there is a proactive way, including an up­ front deposit or security, to ensure that mining I am really surprised and disappointed with rehabilitation is done appropriately. the member coming here and mocking that kind of an issue that is that important for cardiac Over a long history of previous govern­ surgery, where today we are doing about 1,100 ments, there have been situations which were not cardiac surgeries. You go back several years subjected to the kind of scrutiny or the kinds of and we were in the fe w hundreds. That is all proactive approaches by the regulatory schemes part and parcel, because of the significant we have. We have mounted a process to deal commitment of additional resources that we with orphan mine sites which are identified as have made in this budget that he stood up and being problematical, and a multidepartmental voted fo r, I am sure in large part because we strategy, a process for addressing that is under­ have $194 million more in funding for health way as we speak. care to address a number of very important issues to our government and to Manitobans. Health Care Sy stem Summer Closures * (1410)

Mr. Dave Chomiak (K i1 donan): Madam Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, I am asking Speaker, my question is to the Minister of the minister to explain why the minister, who Health. Today we set a new standard fo r had the time to announce the floor plan today of announcements by the minister when the a facility that is not opening up for a year, cannot minister announced a floor plan for a centre that tell us what contingency plan is in place for the is going to open up a year from now. closure of Sara Riel for two weeks, cannot tell us what is going to be done with the closure of the I would like to ask the minister, since he is chemical treatment unit at the Health Sciences trying to gamer publicity: will the minister now Centre, cannot tell us what is being done with give us a precise list of all of the summer the closure to rheumatology and all the summer closures, including the psychiatric summer closures that are taking place because of this closures, the summer closures for drug treatment government'spoor handling of health care in the so Manitobans can know where the government province of Manitoba. Yet he has time to do an is shutting down facilities, since the minister has announcement about a floor plan for beds that time to announce a floor plan, as he did today, are opening up in a year. for a facility that is going to open up a year from now? Mr. Stefanson: Again, Madam Speaker, I continue to be amazed by the approach the Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): member is taking on this very important issue. I Well, Madam Speaker, I am extremely surprised can only believe that he has not talked to the at the member for Kildonan mocking an doctors in the cardiac surgery ward of the Health announcement today that is very important for Sciences Centre. He has not talked to the nurses. the Health Sciences Centre here in Manitoba, He has not talked to any of the patients. very important for cardiac surgery, for cardiac patients, an issue that I have addressed on many occasions right here in this House. This is a state-of-the-art facility. We in Manitoba were amongst the pioneers in North I had the opportunity to be there with America in terms of the establishment of the doctors, with nurses and so on at the facility. step-down unit at the Hea!th Sciences Centre in Today's announcement of a state-of-the-art step­ terms of the quality of patient care that unit down unit for cardiac surgery to the Health provides and also freeing up additional intensive Sciences Centre, with eight beds being identified care unit beds. So it is a very important for that procedure, was very well received, and is initiative for that facility and for cardiac patients something that is extremely important to that in the province of Manitoba. 4272 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999

Again, on the issue of summer schedules, not only a Canadian leader but one of the world the member knows fu ll well summer schedules leaders. have been in place in Manitoba fo r many, many years under our government and previous Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has governments. It is nothing new in the province expired. of Manitoba, and the WHA and the other regional authorities work with all of the facilities ME MBER S' STATE MENTS in terms of their summer schedules and ensuring that the services are still there to meet the needs Leg islative Interns of Manitobans in our hospitals and other facilities. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): Madam Speaker, on behalf of all honourable Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, the minister members, I would like to take this opportunity was there and heard the vice-president say that today to give a very warm and heartfelt thank the pace of the building of this unit went in you to our legislative interns who have worked glacial proportions; that is what the vice­ very hard fo r all of us during the course of the president said. It took that long to build this last year. fac ility. Mel Mallet, better known in my office as the Will the minister outline fo r us today what Hammer, Melanie Vanstone, Shelly Wiseman, contingencies are being put in place fo r the Rory Henry, David Markham and Renata closure of the Sara Riel centre for two weeks this Neufeld have been invaluable components to the year, when we know that community mental successful management of our caucuses from health and psychiatric services are in short their very first day on the job. The quality of supply in this province, have been ever since the their work and their dedicated work ethic speaks government closed a number of fa cilities and did for itself, and their professionalism has been not put in place adequate or properly funded exemplary. They have been excellent examples community-based services? of the success of the program, and I wish them the best of luck in their future endeavours, Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, if the member though I dare say that they will hardly need it. wants to look at capital projects, he can look at fac ilities like St. Boniface and the record pace Renata, David, Rory, Mel, Mel and Shell, that was set in terms of the emergency room you will be sorely missed, and I hope you come redevelopment, which, again, is something that by to visit on a regular basis. is very important to that fac ility, to Manitobans, and I assume members across the way support. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

In terms of Sara Riel, because of staffing Economic Growth issues, that fac ility did shut down their crisis stabilization fo r two weeks. It opens up again on Mr. Doug Martindale (B urrows): Madam Monday, but throughout that period services Speaker, what has the economy under Con­ continue to be available through the Salvation servative governments given us? Governments Army and other facilities. have told us that economic growth is good for everyone, making everyone better off, but it is But, again, I continue to be amazed at the becoming evident that inequality is growing member's cavalier attitude toward a very despite economic growth. important initiative at Health Sciences Centre that was well received by the doctors, by the First, the rich are richer. In 1973, the richest heads of cardiac surgery, by the nurses, by 10 percent of fam ilies with children under 18 everybody with that project, and how delighted made 21 times more than the poorest 10 percent everybody was to see this announcement today of Canadian families. In 1996, the richest 10 and this project moving forward with a state-of­ percent of fam ilies made 314 times more than the-art fac ility in an area of Manitoba which is the poorest 1 0 percent of Canadian families. July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4273

Second, the middle class is shrinking. In able member for Gimli. Could those who are 1973, 60 percent of families with children under carrying on conversations please do so in the 18 earned between $24,500 and $65,000 in 1996 loge or out in the hall. dollars. By 1996, the middle class shrunk. Only 44 percent of fam ilies with dependent children Mr. Helwer: The excitement surrounding the made between $24,500 and $65,000. Most of Pan Am Games is being fe lt and shared by that change happened in the very middle. Those communities around Manitoba. earning the equivalent of between $37,600 and $56,000 in 1973 accounted for 40 percent of the Madam Speaker in the Chair population. A generation later, only 27 percent of the population found themselves in the Today the Pan Am flame will cross the middle. border into our province at the town of Emerson, and from there it will visit 20 Manitoba Families increasingly have to rely on more communities, travelling as far north as Churchill, than one income to get by. Increasingly, even a before arriving back in Winnipeg to officially second income is not enough. Real average open the games. family market incomes are lower today than they were in 1981; 60 percent of fam ilies with * (1420) children were earningless than in 1981. Many communities will also play host to Governments clearly have a role to play in Pan Am events, including Stonewall and Gimli society, both by setting the rules by which the in my constituency, which will host baseball and markets play and by mediating the fallout from sailing respectively. the market. Unregulated markets do not do a good job of distributing, for example, health The games offer a wonderful opportunity to care, education, public safety, public recreation showcase our beautiful communities and and infrastructure. These are the very things that province to people from around the world. this government, this provincial government, and There is no doubt that these games will open the fe deral government are cutting back. We doors to new cultural and economic partnerships need to change the government and elect a between Manitoba and our southernneighbours. government in Manitoba that is committed to justice, equity, fairness and economic oppor­ So I would like to ask all members of the tunity for everyone. Thank you. Assembly to join with me in welcoming the Pan Am athletes and offering our congratulations to Pan Am Games all of those involved for what is sure to be the most successful Pan Am Games ever. Thank Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Madam you. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to rise today and offe r my best wishes to the many athletes, Bill47 organizers and volunteers involved in the 1999 Pan Am Games here in Winnipeg. Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, in the last two days I have had Mr. Ben Sveinson, Acting Speaker, in the Chair discussions with people from Grand Rapids and Lac du Bonnet who are very disappointed in the The 13th Pan Am Games will be the third­ actions this government has taken by passing largest multisport event ever held in North Bill 47 which will exempt Manitoba Telecom America. Five thousand athletes from 42 western Services from paying taxes. Grand Rapids and hemisphere countries will be competing at these Lac du Bonnet passed by-laws in their com­ games which are being supported by the efforts munities to have personal properties assessed on of over 17,000 volunteers. The excitement Manitoba Hydro in their communities. surrounding the Pan Am Games is being fe lt and shared by communities- The province was to assess these properties, The Acting Speaker (Mr. Sveinson): Order, but over the last couple of years the assessor has please. I am having trouble hearing the honour- refused to do that work. As a result, the two 4274 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999 communities had to go to the Court of Queen's The employees, of course, are concerned Bench to get the assessor to do his job. The about their jobs, and MTS also is not concerned province tried to talk both these communities about jobs and keeping jobs in Manitoba. There into dropping their case, but they refused. are 1, 100 jobs that have been lost since they However, the case was to be held in June and privatized MTS and hundreds of employees that was extended into September. When it was are now locked out are concerned that their jobs extended, they were given the assurances to have are next in line, that they are going to be the same conditions in place at the time that the contracted out and will lose more jobs to the case would be heard. However, this government United States. The operating jobs could go to has brought forward legislation which changes Phoenix, Arizona. those conditions. They made a commitment to the communities that the retroactive clause in the The employees are walking the pavement in bill would be removed, and it has not been front of the MTS buildings now, and those removed. hundreds of people are slated-a number of them-to be volunteers at the Pan Am Games. It seems very strange that this government But they are at risk of having to forfeit that did not recognize the problems they were opportunity in order to try and get the company creating when they privatized Manitoba Tele­ back to the bargaining table. We know that the phone System, that it was a private corporation government currently has four board members and should be paying taxes. Now they have who are still part of the board, and we want the brought in an exemption fo r Manitoba Telecom Premier (Mr. Filmon) to pick up the phone and Services and Manitoba Hydro, and it is not jeopardize the MTS sponsorship of the hypocritical to try to think that you can treat a games, to have MTS get back to the bargaining private corporation like MTS and Manitoba table so that these employees can have a decent Hydro the same. This legislation that the summer like the rest of us. government has brought fo rward will cause concerns fo r many municipalities, that they will OR DERS OF THE DA Y not be able to collect taxes on other private corporations. It is unfortunate that the Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): government did not do more consultation before Madam Speaker, I wonder if we might seek they brought this bill forward, rather than saying leave to returnto Presenting Reports by Standing that they are going to do the consultation after Committees and then seek leave fo r me to report the bill is passed. fr om my standing committee. MT S Labour Dispute Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member Ms. Marianne Cerilli (R adisson): Madam fo r St. Norbert have leave to revert to Routine Speaker, the countdown for the Pan Am Games Proceedings, Presenting Reports by Standing is indeed on. There is only nine days to go. The and Special Committees? [agreed] torch is in Manitoba. The sprinklers are going full time to try and get the new sod to grow. Does the honourable member fo r St. Norbert They are madly trying to finish the Norwood have leave to present the standing committee Bridge and other infrastructure. The teams are report? [agreed] being announced, and what do we have? We have MTS, the first corporate sponsor. has its PRESENTING REPORTS BY employees locked out, with no consideration STANDING AND SPE CIAL COMMITTEE S about the games. Before the games, MTS was the first corporate sponsor, but that was before Standing Committee on Law Amendments privatization. That was when MTS was a Crown FifthReport corporation and a Manitoba company. Now that MTS is 80 percent owned by people who are not Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson of the Manitoban, they do not care about their Committee on Law Amendments): Madam employees and they do not seem to care about Speaker, by leave, I beg to present the Fifth what happens in Manitoba. Report of the Committee on Law Amendments. July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4275

Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Graham Starmer - Manitoba Chamber of Commerce Madam Speaker: Dispense. Pauline Riley - Manitoba Action Committee on the Status of Women Your Standing Committee on Law Amendments Blair Hamilton - Canadian Union of Public presents the following as its Fifth Report. Employees, Manitoba Rhonda McCorriston-Private Citizen Your committee met on Wednesday, July 7, Alan Maki -Private Citizen 1999, at 7 p.m., Thursday, July 8, 1999, at 10 Neil Cohen - The Community Unemployed Help a.m., Monday, July 12, 1999, at 2:30 p.m., Centre Monday, July 12, 1999, at 7 p.m., Tuesday, July John Doyle - Manitoba Federation of Labour

13, 1999, at 10 a.m. and Tuesday, July 13. 1999, Peter Kaufmann -Private Citizen at 2:45 p.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Valerie Price - Manitoba Association for Rights Building to consider bills referred. and Liberties Thomas Novak - OBLATE Justice and Peace Committee At the July 7, 1999, meeting, your committee Catherine Stearns and Glen Michalchuk - elected Mrs. Driedger as Chairperson and Workers Organizing Resource Centre Mr.Faurschou as Vice-Chairperson. At the July Darrall Rankin - Communist Party of Canada, 12, 1999, 7 p.m. meeting, your committee elected Manitoba Mr. Laurendeau as Chairperson. Rev. HarryLehotsky - New LifeMinistries George Harris -AIDS Shelter Coalition Your committee heard representations on bills David Henry - Private Citizen as follows: Written submissions: Bill 40-The Employment and Income Assistance Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur /'aide a Bev Le Blanc- Private Citizen l'emploi et au revenu Your committee has considered: Von Haywood - Canadian Association of Non­ Employed Bill 40-The Employment and Income Assistance Michelle Forrest-Private Citizen Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur /'aide a Theresa Anne Swedick - Winnipeg Community l'emploi et au revenu Centre of the Deaf Inc. Rick Juba - Juba Neighborhood Resource Drop and has agreed to report the same, on division, in Centre with the following amendment: Deborah Graham -Private Citizen Susan Bruce National Anti-Poverty MOTION: Organization Joseph Stephenson - Youth Against Poverty THAT the preamble of the Bill be amended by Eric Encontre - Private Citizen adding the following after the second Natalie Encontre -Private Citizen paragraph: Tim Jackson - People Empowering Themselves Against the System AND WHEREAS it is a related goal of welfare­ RickPettigrew - Private Citizen to-work initiatives to improve the economic Shauna MacKinnon- CHOICES: A Coalition for circumstances of Manitoba families; Social Justice Randy Kotyk- People Empowering Themselves Mr. Laurendeau: Madam Speaker, by leave, I Against the System move, seconded by the honourable member for Sid Frankel - Social Planning Council of Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Faurschou), that the Winnipeg report of the committee be received. David Martin - Manitoba League of Persons with Disabilities Motion agreed to. 4276 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999

House Business by the honourable Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Hon. Darren Praz nik (Government House Chair and that the House resolve itself into a Leader): Madam Speaker, I would ask if you committee to consider of the Supply to be could call, with leave of the House, report stage granted to Her Majesty. on Bill 40. Motion agreed to. Madam Speaker: Is there leave to call report stage on Bi11 40? [agreed] * (1430) REPORT STA GE Th e Acting Speaker, Ben Sveinson, in the Chair. Bill 40-The Employment And Income Mr. Praz nik: I understand the Minister of Assistance Amendment Act Northern and Native Affairs (Mr. Newman) has been requested and the Minister of Family Hon. Darren Praz nik (Government House Services (Mrs. Mitchelson). They are on their Leader): Madam Speaker, I would move, way now. Before we do that, I would ask if you seconded by the honourable Minister of could recognize the member fo r Portage Ia Agriculture (Mr. Enns), that Bill 40, The Prairie (Mr. Faurschou). There was a statement Employment and Income Assistance Amend­ that he wanted to make. There was not time ment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur !'aide a available in allotments fo r Members' Statements, l'emploi et au revenu, as amended and reported but we had had some discussion with the from the Standing Committee on Law opposition House leader. and if he could be Amendments, be concurred in. recognized, it involves a member of this Assembly. Motion agreed to.

Th e Acti ng Speaker (Mr. Sveinson): Is there a House Business willingness in the House to allow the honourable member fo r Portage to make a statement? Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, first of all, I [agreed] would like to advise the House, in discussions with House leaders and the member fo r Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), that I am not asking fo r leave ME MBER S' STATE MENTS at this time, but I would advise that it is very likely that at six o'clock we will seek unanimous Outstanding Young Farmer Award consent of the House to sit beyond the hour of Dan and Anita Penner six o'clock tonight. So I am just advising members, as they plan their schedule today, that Mr. Dav id Faurschou (Portag e Ia Prairie): that is a very likely possibility that we will be May I first say my appreciation to all members sitting beyond six o'clock. of the House at this time fo r allowing me to rise here this afternoon. I rise today to offe r Secondly, I believe, if Madam Speaker congratulations to Dan and Anita Penner of canvasses the House, she will see that there is a Halbstadt, Manitoba, who were this year's willingness to waive private members' hour. winners of Manitoba's Outstanding Young Farmers Award. Dan and Anita were recognized Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent this past weekend at the annual event during of the House to waive private members' hour? Saturday night's official opening of the Portage [agreed] Ex. The Outstanding Young Farmer Award is a project sponsored by Canada's Jaycees and the Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I would ask if alumni which honours young farmers for their we could proceed to the concurrence process at achievements in agriculture. Candidates must be this particular time. I understand that the correct between the ages of 18 and 39 and receive two­ motion to be moved is I would move, seconded thirds of their income through farming. July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4277

It goes without saying that the Penners are Ms. MaryAnn Mi hy chuk (S t. James): I no strangers to farming. Dan has been farming would like to ask a series of questions to the fo r over 14 years and currently Anita, Dan, and Minister of Energy and Mines. I would like to Dan's brothers grow grain, special crops, beans, begin with obtaining some more information as oilseeds, and corn on their 3,300-acre farm at to the recent document that I received pertaining Halbstadt. In addition to farming, the Penners to the locations of mine sites in Manitoba. The are valued volunteers in their community. They letter is dated July 12. First of all, I would like are active leaders in the 4-H club, in church to ask the minister if he believes this is a activities, and co-ordinate local junior curling. comprehensive list of all mine sites in Manitoba? They also are involved in the Rhineland Ag Hon. David Newman (Mini ster of Energy and Society, Farm Women's Committee, Manitoba Mi nes): Mr. Chair, the list and the map Sugar Beet Producers' Association, which has provided by the department was in response to since been not as active, however, at its time, questions asked during Estimates. If the they were most active, and the Manitoba Pulse honourable member for St. James is asking that I Growers' Association. review it and double check with the department as to how comprehensive it is, I can only The Penners are not only outstanding undertake to do so. They attempted, I would farmers, they are outstanding community people. hope, using their sincere best efforts, to respond Mr. Chair, I might like to add that they have to the question that was posed during Estimates been mentored by a member of this House, the that they could not answer at that time, and if Honourable Jack Penner, who is the member fo r there are some specific questions that the Emerson. Dan is Jack Penner's son. Jack has honourable member for St. James has that she shown leadership in the ag community all wants me to take back to validate, I would have throughout his life. I am certain that Dan and no hesitation undertaking to do that. Anita have benefited from that leadership. �s. Mi hy chuk: Thank you. One of the specific I would like also to recognize the other mmes, fo r example, is Herb Lake, unless that honourees in the competition. They were: mine had a diffe rent name that I am not aware of Darryl and Tara Albrecht of Boissevain; Kevin specifically, I do not see on the list, for example, and Bev Coughbrough of Portage Ia Prairie; and and that is one that the minister knows that we Robert and Leifa Misko from Roblin. Each talked about in Estimates and one that is actually family has demonstrated excellence in farming, being considered as a designated historic site. and I congratulate them all as being the finalists in this competition. So, in addition to Herb Lake, the member fo r Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen) has indicated that Mr. Chair, I ask all honourable members to he is also aware of numerous old mine sites join me in congratulating Dan and Anita on perha s not huge in the scale of today's minin winning Manitoba's Outstanding Young Farmer � � operattons, but they were mine sites that are also A ward and wishing them all the very best in the not on the list, so I would ask the minister that national competition this fall in Regina perhaps more detail could be provided. The co peting against the seven other regions � location of the mines is very, very vague. If you nationally. Congratulations and good luck. look at Chisel Lake, it says: in the Snow Lake area. Elora [phonetic] is at Rice Lake. Where COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY precisely are those mine sites because, without that information, it would be very difficult to Consi deration of Concurrence Moti on identify where those sites were, to ensure that they indeed were in an environmentally or a The Acting Chairperson (Ben Svei nson): safety-issue condition for the public good, and Order, please. The Committee of Supply has so I wo ld appreciate more detail and ensuring before it for our consideration the motion � that that IS a comprehensive list. concun:ing in all Supply resolutions relating to the Estimates of Expenditure for the fiscal year I would ask the minister if he has had an ending the 31st day ofMarch, 2000. opportunity to look at the map that he provided 4278 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999 me and would just like to comment that at this Mr. Newman: Mr. Chair, I some time ago scale, it would seem to me to be fairly received information which was designed to unreasonable to attempt to locate these old mines respond to that rumour, and my recollection is back from the thirties at a scale of one to a that there was a corporation, no personal owner­ million, I believe this is, which was a whole ship by anyone, but there was a corporation provincial map and the dot is much bigger than a involved in exercising its rights, like all whole region when it comes to locating the Manitobans, in relation to the application of a mine, so it is not a very practical map. policy of Manitoba Hydro. * (1440) I examined the report from Manitoba Hydro It does show trends, and it shows the active about that and was satisfied that what was done mines clearly because they are also easier to was entirely in accordance with a normal spot, but, for instance, a very specific question, situation, a normal application of the policy in and I am sure that there is a logical reason, the relation to a commercial enterprise by a nonoperational mines are in a gold colour and corporation in the province. there is another category called nonoperational fe nced. My eyesight as well as my hearing is Ms. Mihychuk: Can the minister clarify, is it not as good as it used to be, but this map I not the case that Manitoba Hydro will provide cannot diffe rentiate between the two types of the service at no charge for facilities that are mines, which apparently is significant enough to within two miles from the power source and, in have two categories. So this map is of little use. fact, that this location exceeded five miles? Is If we could have some greater detail and that correct? locations, I would appreciate it. Mr. Newman: Mr. Chair, I do not have the Mr. Newman: Mr. Chair, I have no difficulty detail on this, so I am not able to respond to that co-operating in an effort to satisfy her desire for very specific question. I can undertake to more preciseness. Dealing with the first point, I provide that information and, in fact, provide the think there is another name for the Herb Lake briefing note that I received from Hydro to the mine, but we will get that for you as well. member.

The issue about the size of the map, wanting Ms. Mihychuk: Would the minister review the it on a smaller scale map, I am sure that could be situation, and if, in fact, the information that an accommodated. It was probably done in individual, Cubby Barrett, who is involved in a anticipation that this is the kind of document you corporation that is involved with a piggery in wanted for ready referral. But to the extent you Fisher Branch, received three-phase service want more precise locations and you want a which can be fai rly expensive service, if this more complete depiction of the history of mine corporation received this type of service and if it sites, I will seek the co-operation of my exceeds two miles and if, in fact, it was five department in doing that. I think it would be a miles away fr om the power source, will the useful document fo r a variety of different minister conduct an investigation as to whether purposes, so I think it is a worthwhile use of policy and protocol were fo llowed or was there a departmental staff. breach?

Ms. Mihy chuk: I want to thank the minister fo r Mr. Newman: In response to the rumour, I his co-operation. undertook that inquiry and received a briefing note response which confirmed the dealings with I have one additional set of questions to the this particular corporation was in accordance Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro who is with policy. As I have said, I will share that the Minister of Energy and Mines. My question briefingnote with the honourable member. to the minister: is he aware that an individual known as Cubby Barrett has received three­ If the honourable member has questions phase service to his pig barn facility at Fisher arising out of that, that she wants to have third­ Branch at no charge? party validation of, then that can be done, but let July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4279 her satisfy herself in that way. Then I will co­ Manitoba Hydro are somewhat in question when operate in ensuring that the integrity of the you look at what apparently has happened in this application policy was fo llowed by Hydro, as it case in the Fisher Branch area. So my question must be. If it is not, the board of directors is is: will the minister provide this information, accountable for that, and if the board of directors review whether this was an unusual circum­ does not do something appropriate about it, then stance? Were there other situations that received it is up to me to do something about it. three-phase service at no charge at five miles? What would be the value of this type of service Ms . Mihychuk: Can the minister indicate transaction? whether it would be considered normal to over­ estimate the distance by approximately three Mr. Newma n: Mr. Chair, I am actually very miles? pleased that the honourable member for St. James has brought a matter of rumour into this Mr. Newma n: Mr. Chair, I will get the briefing House so that her anxiety about whether there note and the details to the honourable member has been an impropriety or not can be dealt with. fo r St. James. Then the supplementary kinds of The approach that I will take is to very promptly questions that are now being asked, which I am share that information with the honourable incapable of answering, I could be properly member and invite her, if she has further informed about and we could be dealing with questions or concerns to seek further additional facts not speculation. information, we will co-operate fully in ensuring that the integrity of the policy process of Ms . Mihychuk: Would the Minister responsible Manitoba Hydro has been respected by for Hydro indicate how much this type of service Manitoba Hydro employees. would cost to cover a customer if they were to cover the expenses of obtaining three-phase I thank the honourable member for St. James service? I understand that indeed in some (Ms. Mihychuk) fo r bringing it into this forum, circumstances where those facilities are under rather than contributing to rumours which two miles and where they see the customer as caused some concern amongst the people who being a heavy user, and most three-phase service fe lt that they were being accused of an customers are, that sometimes the charges are impropriety and wanted me to be in a position to waived. deal with these malicious rumours in an appropriate, responsible way should the occasion It is also my understanding that this facility arise. was well beyond the two miles, in fact, was over five miles. It is very difficult to understand how So I am very pleased to co-operate in that that type of error could be made. Indeed, that is way. a lot of poles or line to run. I would ask the minister to investigate how such a mistake could Mr. Cha irpers on: I am not sure if the member have been made, or if, in fact, there have been wants to be recognized or if she just wants to any other applicants that have indeed received carry on a conversation. The honourable member three-phase service that exceeded the fo ur- or fo r St. James, so we can have these words for the five-mile distance from the power source. I am record. not aware of that situation. It seems highly * (1450) unusual that this individual who is involved with this corporation seems to have ties with the Ms . Mihychuk: One final question, and this governmentand the government's party. one I wanted to ask in my series of questions in the House today, but there were other Mr . Chairperson in the Chair individuals in our caucus so anxious to ask questions that I fe lt that I could present this to It does lead to the question, and I think the the minister at this time. onus is on behalf of the minister, which he is assuring us to have the facts come out clearly Can the minister update us as to what plans because the integrity of the minister and the government has to deal with the issue at 4280 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999

Sherridon and the mine tailings which are Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. Could I ask leaching into the water system at Sherridon? honourable members to keep it down. There are some members who cannot hear quite clearly what is going on when there are diffe rent noises Mr. Newman: The up-to-date position on that, going on. Mr. Chair, is, I said just stay tuned to the honourable member fo r Flin Flon (Mr. Mr. Sal e: I just have a couple of questions fo r Jennissen) on this particular issue, because I the honourable Minister of Industry, Trade and know he did a personal visit up there, and that is Tourism in regard to questions that I have asked in his constituency. He and the Mines critic, of in Estimates and in the House on the Manitoba course, are concerned to get some information Capital Fund. before any election taking place. I am equally Would he simply confirm the existence of anxious to make sure that something is done the agreement that the Province of Manitoba about a situation that might have some potential would underwrite the first $5 million of losses in environmental consequences and certainly the Manitoba Capital Fund, which was, I economic consequences to tourism in the area, understand, part of the set-up agreement of so I will give you the up-to-date report which is Manitoba Capital Fund? At least, according to fairly fresh. the Workers Compensation Board it was. My department intends to seek approval fo r Ho n. Merv in Tweed (Minis ter of Indus try, funding out of the Mining Reserve to advance Trade and To uris m) : Mr. Chairman, I would with the necessary funding to prevent the kinds refer the honourable member to the news release of risks which are the subject matter of the dated May 14, 1996, in which part of the release anxiety. We are dealing with this in an stated that, as an incentive to attract other expeditious manner and seeking the views of the capital, government funds will act as a loan loss community itself as to whether or not they fe el reserve to help reduce the risk of other investors. that would be an appropriate use of the Mining It was announced that day, and certainly, as the Reserve. opposite member implied yesterday, it was no secret that it was being done. Since it has been done in the past and that has been the funding source in the past, we do Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I have seen that. not anticipate that being a difficulty. I would There was no statement in that press release, I appreciate this being expedited by the honour­ believe, of the amount of the loan loss being $5 able member fo r St. James (Ms. Mihychuk), million. If the minister is confirmingthat it is up endorsing that as a source of funding. If she to $5 million or perhaps he would like to tell us does not, then it becomes a more problematical if it is higher than that. Could he tell us what the kind of issue. It would also be helpful if the loan loss ceiling was in the agreement? honourable member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen), through the honourable member for Mr. Tweed: Mr. Chairman, as the member St. James, indicated his position on that knows, the risk pool capital was a $25-million particular matter, because if that is the position fund in which the government entered into the of the New Democratic Party through those agreement with a $5-million contribution. representatives, I am sure that will make it easier Again, I would suggest that is clear eno gh as to get the kind of timely support that is necessary � far as what the statement says, that our mvest­ for it. [interjection] ment would act as a loan loss reserve.

Mr. Chairperson: Let me know when we get Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I understand the this out of our system and we will carry on. minister has confirmed that the loan loss provision was for the entire $5 million, about, as Mr. Tim Sal e (Cres centwood): Mr. Chair­ a presumable maximum. person, I have just a couple of brief- Could the minister then tell us, tell the So me Ho no urabl e Members: Oh, oh. committee whether the province is entitled to July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4281 recover that loan loss before the other partners Mr. Tweed: Mr. Chairman, I will not confirm are paid profits, or are the losses absolute and that. What I will confirm is at the end of the not recoverable by the province out of other investment period, the seven-year period that the profits, if there are any? funding that is available at that time is scheduled to be repaid back to the province. It is set up on Mr. Tweed: Mr. Chairman, as all capital risk a formula of quarterly returns and a formula at funds, there are good investments and perhaps maturity, and as I mentioned earlier yesterday, not-so-good investments, and at the end of the risk capital has the ability for tremendous growth day, when the fund has run its course, the and tremendous return, and when you look at a expectation is that the province will receive its pool of money that is being used and being fu ll investment. invested to entrepreneurs, the ability to overcome a loss in one area is made up in other investments in the fund. At the end of the fund Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I do not believe the we fully expect to be repaid. minister answered my question. I do not want to get into a debate with him. I am really seeking * (1500) information at this point. Mr. Sale: The minister has the memo from the Is the province entitled to recover the losses Workers Compensation Board. Are the percent­ that it suffered in Shamray and Rescom to the ages quoted in the Compensation Board's memo amount of $4.5 million out of the first gains to 6.6 percent to date and nine point something at the fund, or are the profits distributed, the gains maturity? Are these the figures that he is distributed according to a different formula in suggesting would be the formula that would which all partners receive pro rata the gains but result in a payout to the participants in the fund? only one partner absorbs the first $5 million of losses. Could he simply clarify that? Mr. Tweed: Mr. Chairman, although I do not have the exact details of what our return and what our payout is, he is correct in stating that Mr. Tweed: Mr. Chairman, again, I would refer the WCB has received a cash return at 6.29 on the honourable member to the news release the investment, and all funds forecasted quoted earlier, May 14, 1996. The third page anticipate that the partners will receive a 9.67 states that the province expects to recover its target returnon maturity date in 2003. initial investment at the end of the seven-year term through quarterly returns and a repayment Mr. Sale: So, just then to conclude, Mr. formula at maturity. Chairperson, I believe what the minister said is the fo llowing: that the province is liable for the Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I was unable to hear first $5 million in losses and that these losses are the last sentence the minister spoke. I just did not recoverable in any direct way before the not hear him. If he could repeat it, I would gains of the fund are paid out pro rata to all of appreciate it. the partners; that, secondly, groups like the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce have Mr. Tweed: The announcement stated that the been paid a 6.2 or thereabouts rate of return on province expects to recover its initial investment their investment to date and expect to get a at the end of the seven-year term through further return at the end of the day but have quarterly returns and a repayment fo rmula at suffered no losses as a result of their maturity. participating in this Venture Capital Fund. I believe that is the essence of what he said. Mr. Sale: Mr. Chairperson, I believe the minister has said then that the province is not Mr. Tweed: Mr. Chairman, that is not exactly entitled to recover losses up to $5 million but what I said. What I said was, when we entered will share only in its pro rata share of any gains into the risk capital fund the province's share of in the fund that take place. So the $5 million is $5 million was to be set up so that it would be­ an absolute loss. Would he confirm that? and I will get the term right, the government 4282 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999 funds will act as a loan loss reserve to help I think if you go out and talk to any reduce the risk to other investors. What in Manitoban, they would certainly agree that the general happens is that the other funds that have province is doing very well economically and been invested in and the other businesses that look fo rward to this government leading them have been invested in are showing a rate of into the future and the prosperity that goes with return of which I expect the province to share in it. Thank you. the annual rates of return on those investments and then receive its fu ll return on its investment Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr. in the year 2003. Chairman, I would like to ask a fe w questions of the Minister of Agriculture if I could. Mr. Sale: One question. Would the minister tell the House what the fair market value of One of the issues that I want to raise is the Manitoba Capital Fund's investment portfolio support that is being offered to farmers for was at the last audit or annual meeting date, the unseeded acreage. I want to ask the minister total portfolio invested to date? Could he give whether there are any supports being offered to us that figure? producers who have crop insurance, who seeded their crop because they were able to take part in Mr. Twee d: I regret that I do not have that in the early seeding and then lost their crop because front ofme at this point in time, but I can tell of rain. Are they entitled to any of that additional you that capital funds vary basically from one coverage that this government announced fo r day to the next as far as the value of the shares unseeded acreage, or do they only get the of the companies that it has invested in. It was coverage that was offered under the crop recently told to me that as recently as about six insurance that they purchased? weeks ago, the stocks in Bill Gates's company went from $30 million to $66 million in one day. Hon. Harry Eno s (Ministe r of Agriculture ): In response to the honourable member for Swan Mr. Sale: I am simply concluding again that the River, I would have to indicate that those who minister does not want to tell Manitobans what did get their crops seeded are. of course. more the fair value of the total investment in Manitoba fortunate than those who did not get their crops Capital Fund is at the present time. I am not seeded, and they would be subject to only those asking him to suggest that it does not change benefits available to them from crop insurance. from day to day. I expect it would. I asked him If the situation is where a farmer has unseeded fo r the fund value at the last audited statement, acreage, those are the ones who are being and he is refusing to give that information. One contemplated fo r some special and specific could only speculate that that might be because support. the info rmation would be embarrassing in terms of the scale of the losses that the fund has Ms. Wowchuk: I guess, Mr. Chairman, I would sustained. like the minister to recognize that there is a group of farmers there who were able to seed, but because the weather changed to the extent So I regret that lack of transparency, but I that it did, their crops drowned out. So they will thank the minister for confirming that Manito­ qualify fo r the crop insurance that they had, but bans lost $5 million as a result of the way in they still have the same problems that the other which this fund was set up. farmers are having as far as cleaning up their land. So the other farmers are going to be able Mr. Twee d: Disagreeing I guess with the to get $50 an acre fo r crop that they did not seed, comments of the member opposite, what I am and it is much needed. I agree it is much needed, hearing from Manitobans is that they are pleased but there is a group of farmers who are caught in that the province took the lead, went out and the middle. Because of their management plan, created the risk capital to enhance business they took out crop insurance. Their crop opportunities and new business chances fo r our drowned out, and they have not been able to young people, jobs to keep people in Manitoba, seed again, but they are not going to be able to to keep our families working at home. take advantage of the other programs. July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4283

I am wondering whether the minister am aware that this year, because of the volatile recognizes this as a problem and whether Crop weather situation she describes, it exists, but it is Insurance is looking at a way to deal with this in not being contemplated by myself or crop order to bring some fairness and equity to those insurance to provide any special provision other people who are all suffering the same because of than those who specifically will be eligible the heavy rainfall, but some took crop insurance because of their unseeded acreage. and managed to seed but lost their crop anyway, and then I guess whether the same thing would Ms. Wowch uk: I recognize what the minister is apply to those who did not have crop insurance saying. I am just wanting the minister to be but seeded and lost their crop. aware that there are a group of farmers in the southwest part of the province, some of whom So they all still have the same problem of were able to get some of their seeding done prior having to clean up those fields. Whether they to the rain starting and now they are caught in seeded or they did not, if the crop got drowned the same situation and fe el that there is a bit of out, they are basically in the same spot as those unfairness. It will be something that will have to who did not seed, but they just happened to get be addressed. some work done before the rain started but are now all caught in the same situation. I guess, I would ask the minister whether there will be any long-term implications on the * (1510) Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation as a result of the programs that have been put in place for Mr. Enns: Well, Mr. Chairman, I think the the unseeded acreage. Will there be any financial response to the honourable member has to be impact or will any of this money come fr om the that we have a particular problem that involves, Manitoba Crop Insurance or fr om the agriculture the exact number I do not know, but it could be budgets? Are the funds that have been as high as a million, a miliion-plus acres of announced for unseeded acreage going to come unseeded land. On a lot of this land, those fr om a different part of Treasury Board? Can far mers have, I am told in 25-30 percent of the the minister indicate where those funds are cases applied, maybe $15, $20, $30 worth of coming fr om? fe rtilizer on these same acres of land who now have no possibility, zero possibility, of getting any return. That is being recognized certainly by Mr . Enns: Mr. Chairman, I think the honour­ this government, by this minister, and to some able member will concur, chosen the vehicle of extent by the fe deral government, although not the Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation as to the fu ll extent that I would appreciate. We are being the appropriate agency that is best situated still working on that situation that needs to be both in knowing the land that we are talking addressed, the unseeded acres. about, having over 12,000 clients, 85 percent of the land that we are talking about are clients of To the farmers who were able to seed within Manitoba Crop Insurance. So I am using the seeding deadline date, and after all that is Manitoba Crop Insurance as a vehicle to do the why we put in a special program to help that administration of any monies that were being along with the $10 an acre custom seeding paid out. incentive, if you like, they then are eligible for crop insurance coverage. Depending on their The seeded acreage reports are now in, coverage that they have selected, 60, 70, 80 which every farmer who has to file with percent will bring them up. I cannot be specific Manitoba Crop Insurance. I expect very shortly, in a general cause, because each farmer has his maybe, certainly by the middle of next week, to own records but would bring them up into the be able to for the first time put definitive area of anywhere fr om $120 to $160 an acre numbers as to exactly how many unseeded acres payout. Now that is still considerably different there are. A farmer will fillout his report. If he and better than the $50 that is being promised to normally farms 1,200 acres or 3,000 acres, and those farmers who have unseeded acreage and he will say: 500 I got seeded and 600 I did not cannot expect any returns. The short answer is I get seeded. So we will get accurate data. 4284 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999

It is not contemplated to be using Manitoba the committee is allow the Justice minister and Crop Insurance monies fo r these payouts. They the critic to have some time until 4 p.m., and the will be the agency that will be handling it. The Minister of Agriculture will then return with the first $25 of the $50 that my government has critic at 4 p.m. committed to support, I am hoping, and that is still a little murky, to come out of the AIDA Mr. Chairperson: Okay, does that sound right? program, again, and without penalty to those Did the minister want to conclude his answer? who may or may not qualify for a payout under AIDA. If I may, just as an example, if a fa rmer An Honourable Member: He did. has 600 acres that he could not seed, at $25 an acre would be a $15,000 payout. Let us assume, Mr. Chairperson: The minister concluded his fo r a moment, that under the AIDA program, he answer. Were you done, Harry? would qualify for a $22,000 level of support. Well, he would get the $15,000 acreage An Honourable Member: No. payment, and then in the final configuration of his AIDA program application, he would get an Mr. Chairperson: I did not think so, see you at additional $7,000 to bring him up to it. Mr. fo ur o'clock. You can move your motion later. Chairman, I wonder if I have permission to introduce a private member's bill. I just read one An Honourable Member: I do have this little that was attempted in Georgia. bill that I would like to introduce.

An Honourable Member: Pass. Mr. Chairperson: We will introduce that at fo ur o'clock. Mr. Minister. Mr. Eno s: Pardon?

Mr. Gord Mac kintosh (St. Johns) : I have a An Honourable Member: Pass. series of questions for the minister in the area of Corrections. As the minister is aware, the Mr. Eno s: See, I am being- previous minister had promised the immediate construction of an added building for inmates at Mr. Chairperson: Go ahead, Mr. Minister. Headingley in which the Honourable Ted Hughes emphasized should be opened at the Mr. Eno s: Do I? earliest possible date and should get underway immediately. That promise was made almost Mr. Chairperson: You might have to run it by three years ago, and with construction which I the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship understand is just beginning now as an election (Mrs. Vodrey), though. is coming, can the minister explain the impact of this inexcusable delay on the record Mr. Eno s: So the $25 will come through the overcrowding that is now being experienced in AIDA program, and the other $25 is the one that Manitoba jails? I am in serious negotiations. We are hoping we can get it under the disaster national assistance Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justic e and act where we could get considerable fe deral Attorney General): I think that is probably sharing. something better put to the Minister of GovernmentServices (Mr. Pitura). The Minister Hon. Darren Praz nik (Government House of Government Services is responsible for the Leader): Mr. Chair, in just trying to manage construction. I do have some very general critics' and ministerial responsibilities for this information relating to a facility that is being afternoon, because of a meeting that I know the built and the target date being open for the Minister of Agriculture has, it is very important, middle of July. So it should be any time now in which I am also involved, and that the that a specific wing is being opened. But in Attorney General has, I have spoken with critics, respect of the larger increase in the beds, I what we will do now with the kind permission of understand that it is on schedule. July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4285

Mr. Macki ntosh: It is not on schedule. It was made in the facilities, including the construction promised for immediate construction in of a facility that was targeted to be open at the September three years ago, and then it was middle of this month, on or about the middle of this month. I understand if it is not open yet, the repromised in the subsequent budget. I asked . the minister not about the delay per se, but rather opening is imminent. So we are working very what has been the impact of this delay on the diligently in order to ensure that we are meeting overcrowding that is now being experienced in the needs that our policy, in fact, has dictated. the jails? Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, if anyone should know Mr. Toews: I am not sure I heard the question. about open-door policies at prisons, it has to be I think he indicated what has been the impact of this government. As I recall, I think they waved the construction? goodbye to Robert Guiboche as he left the Remand Centre by mistake. As I recall, the * (1520) findings of an independent party were that this governmentwas responsible in no small way for Mr. Chai rperson: The honourable member for the riot at Headingley. We all know about that. St. Johns, to clarify the question. Of course, recommendations made by the Mr. Macki ntosh: Well, I asked what the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry in respect of facilities impact of the delay in construction has had on were made before this government allowed the this record overcrowding. rise of criminal street gangs in this province. Some of those recommendations are that, I think Mr. Toews: I guess there is a fundamental the one that the minister is trying to be cute difference between the New Democrats, who about would of course no longer be applicable want to see open-door prisons. The member fo r due to this government's negligence. St. Johns has indicated to me a number of times he wants to see the recommendations of the Now, of course, we also know about bail Aboriginal Justice Inquiry implemented, which under this government. We know how this call fo r open-door jails in this province. I governmenthas been so lax and dangerous in its disagree with that. We have taken a very bail policies, but what is happening at the diffe rent approach to the whole area of Remand Centre attests to not how tough this corrections. Not only did we ensure that there government is on crime but how soft it is. The are appropriate facilities being built but that overcrowding attests to the fact that this there are medium-security fac ilities and high­ government has been an absolute failure when it security facilities being built in Headingley jail. comes to dealing with gangs in particular and crime as it has worsened over the last number of I know that, again, the member and his party years in this province. oppose some of our policies in respect of bail. In respect of a particular incident, I know I read My question is: can the minister, in any in the newspaper about one of his colleagues way, give any assurance, particularly to staff in advocating for early parole for a convicted drug Corrections, when there are reports that the dealer and gang leader. I was very concerned Remand Centre, for example, we understand that our Crown attorneys would spend time to from reports, was holding as much as 348 or 349 convict an individual, to have the judge convict inmates on Monday, which would be about 60 the individual, by working very rigorously, and inmates too many, and considering such members for his party advocating that these overcrowding that does not even count what I individuals should be released on early parole. understand are about I 00 inmates, and that was So there is a fundamental difference between his from a report back in February, that have been party and our party in respect of issues of crime. sentenced and are held at Stony Mountain, so what assurances can he give that this over­ Now, we do understand that because of our crowding is not going to endanger staff policies in opposition to bail, that has, in fact, currently? Whether a new unit opens or not, my led to adjustments that have had to have been understanding is that unit is only designed to 4286 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999 take 45 inmates, remand inmates, if there were come back with explanations but then to 60 too many on Monday will not even be fabricate and make something up about a accommodated with the new facility. position of ours on open-door prisons, which is absolute nonsense of course and which he knows Mr. Toews : I thank the member for the about. question. I note his concern. I want to assure him and the people of Manitoba that I am I asked the minister what assurances can he similarly concerned, first of all, that the safety of give. What precautions are now in place to deal the public is assured. Again, as I indicate, there with the overcrowding, and how can the is a fundamental diffe rence between our govern­ corrections system accommodate, for example, if ment and the opposition who want to see an there were any more sweeps in the next while or open-door policy. The member has consistently any large busts? The police have to continue to asked me to implement those recommendations do their job. What precautions can he say he has of the AJI and has consistently asked when those put in place? recommendations of the AJI will be imple­ mented. I have indicated to him the open-door Mr. Toews : I will take that question as notice policy that he endorses and has endorsed in the so that I can bring the relevant information to the past will not be implemented by this govern­ House. ment.

Mr. Mackintos h: Well, you see, here is the We think that our bail policy is working. minister going on with some political drivel, and Now that the member sees that it is working, he then, when the question is posed, he cannot says now we have too many people in our answer it. Surely he can tell Manitobans what facilities. While I acknowledge that there are precautions are now in place to ensure the safety, some additional concerns raised by the success particularly of staff, given the current popula­ of our policy in that respect, I know that the tions in our correctional fa cilities. assistant deputy minister and his staff have been working very closely with staff and with the union to ensure that there are adequate levels of Mr. To ews: This is a member who basically staffing and that our policy continues to be slept through the Estimates and allowed the implemented. We certainly do not agree with Liberals to ask all the questions when my staff the policy of the party opposite which would was present beside me. When the assistant support the early release of convicted drug deputy minister was present beside me, he was dealers and gang leaders to the extent that they asleep at the switch, and then was embarrassed would go to parole board hearings to support because he wanted to bring a motion against my those kinds of things. salary, and he missed it.

So, again, I note the concern raised. I share Po int of Order the concern in that we will work very diligently to ensure that the people of Manitoba are secure, Mr. Mackintos h: Well, the minister has been and we will continue to oppose policies like the caught with misleading statements in this House, members opposite who think that people should and I think he should apologize fo r what he has get out on early parole, even though they are just said. He knows that I think there were known drug dealers and indeed convicted drug upwards of, what, 15-16 hours in Estimates, day dealers and gang leaders. after day, answers that he would not give, but he filibustered through the whole entire Estimates, Mr. Mackintos h: The minister's pathetic making a mockery of that parliamentary response, of course, is nothing but a figment of institution and the value of it to Manitoba his imagination. citizens.

I think we have enough problems and I ask him to correct the record and not concerns about public safety in this province mislead the committee and Manitobans once without the minister being unable to not only again. July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4287

Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The honour­ not answer with all the staff sitting there. Would able member did not have a point of order. It he tell the committee and Manitobans what is the was a dispute over the facts. amount of unpaid traffic fines in Manitoba?

* * * Mr. Toews: I took that question as notice, and I have not had a response on that question. As An Honourable Member: On the same point soon as I have the exact information in front of of order. me, I will provide it to the member.

Mr. Ch airperson: No, the point of order has Mr. Mackintosh: It is interesting to see the been dealt with, Mr. Minister. The honourable passage time since that question was asked. I member, with his question. The member for St. think I last asked it actually when he had staff Johns, you had a question? around him when he was introducing legislation to deal with unpaid fines. So there goes the Mr. Mackintosh: I asked the minister what minister's excuse about he needs staff around precautions are now in place. him to answer questions.

* (1530) Is the minister aware of any concerns from staff in the correctional facilities about the lack Mr. Ch airperson: You were dealing with the of a career path, if you will. that is being assured point of order at the time. I said you did not fo r staff because of an increasing reliance on have a point of order; it was a dispute over the part-time correctional officers now? facts. If you have a question fo r the minister, now would be the time to pose it. Mr. Toews: I understand that, of course, we have hired many additional staff in order to Mr. Mackintosh: I said: what precautions are ensure public safety, because I believe that if we now in place to guard against threats to the have appropriate levels of staffing in our safety, particularly of staff, given the current correctional institutions, not only is that better populations? It is a simple question. I think fo r the staff, but, indeed, it is better fo r public Manitobans, particularly staff, deserve an safety generally. answer. I know that from time to time there are Mr. Toews: Well, the member knows that I do always issues concerning advancement in the not have the information in front of me. He department, advancement in the career, and if specifically waits until concurrence to ask very there is any specificissue, rather than the general detailed, specific questions about an issue. He comment, perhaps I could address that. did not ask that question during the Estimates, when my assistant deputy minister for Mr. Mackintosh: Well, I asked if the minister Corrections was beside me and could, in fact, was aware of staff concerns about the proportion have provided him with those answers. of part-time officers to fu ll time. I also ask whether he has been briefed or is he aware But that is typical of his style of asking of concerns from staff about any growing level questions. He wants to only ask questions when or proportion of officers who are relatively new he knows that the answers need to be taken as or relatively inexperienced, particularly at notice. So, therefore, Mr. Chair, I will take the Headingley? question as notice, and I will respond to that in due course. Mr. Toews: I know that my Assistant Deputy Minister Mr. Graceffa is a very hands-on Mr. Mackintosh : Well, since the minister assistant deputy minister. He deals with concerns confirmed he does not know the answer or as they arise from day to day. I know that he has cannot give any assurances, I will ask him a raised a number of concerns with me that staff question that he did take as notice and, in fact, have expressed. After discussions or after being that was raised during Estimates and that he did briefed on those matters, I am generally satisfied 4288 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999 with the direction that the department is going submit, the opportunities for drugs to come into in. the facility. As, I think, is well known, the presence of drugs and other intoxicating But if there are specific concerns where the substances creates a situation that could lead to member feels that we could do better, I would destabilization, so those types of general policies certainly be interested in listening to his pass by regulation or simply under the direction suggestions in terms of ensuring that we have of the superintendent. I think, go to ensuring that appropriate staff on duty at all times, that our untoward incidents are minimized and that our staff are appropriately trained. I know, for staff are protected, and that they are clearly example, the emergency response team is a aware of what standards need to be met in order matter that we have had some discussions on in to ensure that the fac ility runs appropriately. terms of providing that specific training. [interjection] Well, the member fo r Burrows I know that fo r a number of years the (Mr. Martindale) says he does not think that is Scurfield committee met. The Scurfield com­ the question. mittee, as the member knows, is a direct result of the recommendations of the former Justice The question, as I understood it, is: have Hughes, who conducted the inquiry into the there been any concerns in respect of training of Headingley situation in 1996, I believe the year staff and the experience of staff? I thought that was. In that respect, both the union and manage­ by indicating that the training of the emergency ment worked very closely together on a number response unit was something that I fe lt was of issues. This related not only to health and important and is an issue that needs to be safety issues, which were appropriately identi­ addressed, and so if the member fo r Burrows fied, but also related to issues of the construction saw something diffe rent in the question than I ofthe new fac ility. answered, maybe he could elaborate on what he thinks the member for St. Johns meant. The member indicated that there was somehow an inappropriate delay in the con­ Mr . Macki ntosh: Can the minister answer this struction of the facilities at Headingley. What I question then: has he been made aware, or is he do know and what I think is very important is aware, as to whether or not there has been an that not only was management consulted on an increase in incidents or assaults against staff, ongoing basis with the development of that particularly at Headingley, in the last year? particular fac ility, but that the union was made aware and, I believe, received or provided Mr . Toews: Again, the member will have to substantive input into the development of that give me specific details. I know that from time scheme fo r developing the new fac ility. to time assaults do occur in Headingley jail as well as in our other correctional institutions, and * (1540) my concern always is that the staff take appropriate precautions, that it be properly I know that when I became minister there trained, and that it respond in an appropriate was still a plan on the drawing boards to have a fashion. I know that the various policies of our minimum security portion of the facility at government, in respect of the management of the Headingley, and that was changed to a medium correctional institution, go a long way to address and a maximum. So we had the original proposal some of those specificconcerns. fo r a maximum and the minimum, and that was changed to a medium and to a maximum. Well, I would look at things not as directly as all of those decisions take time in order to ensure staffing for the moment, but let us look at the that we are in fact meeting the needs of the whole issue of the gang containment polices, the population of Manitoba generally but also the no contact visits that we maintain in Headingley very legitimate concerns of our guards, our Correctional Institution, where the presumption correctional officers, in our facility. Those is that there is no contact rather than there being consultations, yes, they do add some time to the a presumed contact visit. The impact of some­ development of the plans, but I think if we are thing like that has, in fact, reduced, I would going to build a system that is going to meet the July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4289 needs of the people of Manitoba on an ongoing whether or not there would be lawsuits flowing basis, those are very necessary consultations. out of that. I do not know what the status today is in respect of decisions regarding lawsuits, and, Mr. GerryMc Alpine, Acting Chairperson, in the if so, the status of those lawsuits. Chair Ms. Mari anne Ceri lli (Radi sson): I have some So I am aware that the union and individual questions for the Minister of Family Services. I union members and guards have in fact raised want to ask questions about some of the issues from time to time. As far as I am aware, programs that are being set up. I know we have that is handled at the operational level. I do not looked at some of these in the past in quite a bit have expertise in the area of how to run a of detail, so basically some of these questions correctional facility on a day-to-day basis, but I will be sort of repeats from previous years but am very confident that my staff is very aware of just sort of trying to get an update. some of the issues involved. As the member I know, for example, with the BabyFirst knows, Mr. Graceffo, who is the assistant deputy Program that last year there was a budget to minister, has not only a broad range of spend $1,600,000. I just want to find out what experience in our facility here but indeed in the the budget is for this year. Originally, there was federal correctional system. I think some of that a couple of sites that were targeted, too, I experience he has brought to bear here and I believe. So just to get some more information think implemented in a very practical and about the increase in the number of sites this beneficial way. year.

Mr. Mackintosh: Can the minister tell the Hon. Bonni e Mi tchelson (Mi ni ster of Fami ly committee whether gang leaders who are Services): Mr. Chairperson, it may take me a sentenced under the Young Offenders Act are little while. I do not have staff here, but the segregated from the general populations at either increase fo r BabyFirst this year was about the youth centre or Agassiz, and I would include $1.662 million last year, and the increase is in that hard core members. $1.098 million this year. My honourable friend has asked me for a list of the sites, and I can Mr. Toews: I know that there are certain certainly get that listing provided for her. policies with respect to the identification of gang members and gang leaders. and as a consequence Ms. Ceri lli : Are there more than the two sites of that identification including risk identifi­ that were sort of the pilot or test sites? cation, certain institutional decisions are made Mrs. Mi tchelson: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, there regarding the handling of those individuals. certainly are, and I know that there are sites right Beyond that, I would prefer to obtain further throughout the province. The regional health information from my staff and take the rest of authorities through the public health nurses, each the question as notice. regional health authority has hired additional public health nurses. I do not have the numbers Mr. Mackintosh: Earlier in the session, I asked in front of me, but we funded them specifically the minister to confirm that monies were for public health nurses that would be the co­ mistakenly paid out to certain plaintiffs, I ordinators of the program in all of the regions, so believe, in an action fo llowing on the conduct of there are sites right throughout the province. the Immigrant Investor Fund, and he had confirmed that either in the House or through the Ms. Ceri lli : I am just going back to the media. I am wondering now if the minister can financing of this program. The material that the tell the committee if any of those monies and minister gave me from last year says that the what amount has been collected. budget for BabyFirst was $1,600,000, and this year she says it is $1.098 million. Mr. Toews: I do not have that information with me. It is a fairly technical issue. I know that the Mrs. Mi tchelson: No, Mr. Chairperson. The last time I had occasion to receive some increase was $1.098 million for a total of $2.76 information in that respect there were issues of million. 4290 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999

Ms. Cerilli: Okay, just to clarify then the last information I have in this book. I am sure staffing. Originally, there was a plan to have 10 staff would have more if they were here to bring nurses and 30 home visitors in place fo r that me up to speed. program. With the increase in the budget, is that now the number of staff that are working in the As of January 18, 1999, II fam ilies out of program, and can the minister tell us if those an approved 30 fam ilies were receiving home people are new staff that are doing other duties visiting services. I do not have any more as well? That staff that have additional duties information than that. That is what is in my fo r BabyFirst added to their workload, how does notes, and if staff were here who are involved it work in terms of staffing for the BabyFirst with the program, I am sure they could give me Program? We have done some phone calling on more information. this and been told that the program is in concept positive, but what is actually happening on the Ms. Cerilli: So the program fo r BabyFirst was ground is that staff do not have the time to announced as part of the original ChildrenFirst devote that they require to the program, to the strategy. It was announced in March of 1997. kind of assessment that the program requires, the But the home visits fo r the program did not start fo llow-up. until January 18 of 1999, if that is what the minister is confirming. * (1550) Mrs. Mitchel son : Mr. Chairperson, I will read Mrs. Mitchel son : I do not have the detail in again into the record. The sites have been front of me, and I am not sure where to find it in operating since April of 1998, and as of January the book I have in front of me. If I had staff 18, 1999, to date II fam ilies were receiving here, I would be able to have that kind of home visiting services. It looks to me from this information at my fi ngertips and provide it to my that another 19 fam ilies had been approved fo r honourable fr iend. It is my understanding that service. So that was as of January, and I do not the RHAs throughout the province are at have any more detail or information. different degrees of readiness in the fu ll imple­ mentation ofthe program. Certainly, if my honourable fr iend would like, we could sit down with some staff from the Some information that I can find is that with Child and Youth Secretariat, and the details to the additional fu nding there will be 17 more her questions could be answered. public health nurses employed throughout the province and 45 home visitors hired, and that is Ms. Cerilli: The question I am asking is a fa irly in addition to what-and I am not sure whether straightforward one. The minister has stated that we had an opportunity to discuss that and the program which was announced in 1997 discuss these numbers last year. I do not have began operating in April of 1998 but that the last year's numbers in front of me. I have home visits did not start until January of 1999. numbers that will indicate how many additional So there was some operation between 1998 and staff resources will be hired as a result of the January 1999. When we have talked to some increase in fu nding. people in the field, they have expressed concern and said that the home visits got started in Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Chairperson, can the minister January of this year. tell us when the home visits started under that program under the first sites that were Mrs. Mitchel son : I do not want my honourable announced? The first two sites were in the city fr iend to put words in my mouth. Twice now I of Winnipeg, I believe, at the North End have given an answer, and twice now she has Community Ministry and Heritage Park. interpreted it differently. I have a note, an update, dated January 18, 1999, that is telling me Mrs. Mitchel son : The two research sites are the what has happened until that date. It says in that North End Community Ministry and Heritage note that the sites have been operating since Park which have been operating since April of April 1998, employing two home visitors. To 1998, employing two home visitors. That is the date, not starting today, but from April 1998 July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4291 until January 1999, 11 fam ilies were receiving 1998 that the money kicked in, and we had home visiting services. So somewhere between something like $10 million, if my figures are April 1998 and January 18, 1999, those support correct, I am not sure, in the first year. We did services and home visits started. They did not not have fu ll-year funding the first year that the start in January 1999. That is my note that is National Child Benefitkicked in. dated 1999, and it is saying what has taken place up to today. * (1600)

Ms. Cer illi: But my question was when the So we calculated how much money we home visitors started. I guess the minister is would have from the National Child Benefit, and saying they started somewhere between April of we allocated X number of dollars to diffe rent 1998 and January of 1999. I am letting her know programs. I cannot remember, off the top of my that, when we have talked to people in the head, what the allocation was fo r each of the community, they have told us the visits started in programs. My sense would be that it would 1999, and that is the reason that I am asking the have been the first number that I quoted to my question. So the minister is, in some ways, honourable fr iend fo r last year's fu nding that confirming, by the information that she has, that would have been part-year funding to fund the there were 11 fam ilies on January 18, 1999, that research sites and to fund the RHAs to start the were receiving home visitors. The reason that I process of hiring people to deliver the BabyFi rst am asking this is because I want to ask the program. minister: at what time did her government start collecting the funding from the National Child Now each RHA, because they have the Benefit? At what time did her government start authority fo r hiring the nurses and hiring the collecting the monies from the increase in the home visitors, would be at different stages. benefits that would have gone to fam ilies Some would not be as developed as others. But receiving social allowance under the National I want to indicate that the money that we Child Benefit that are funding these programs? allocated would have been spent in last year's At what date? budget. It did not lapse, it was spent on the BabyFirst program. So, you know, without Mr s. Mitch elson : Well, again, Mr. Chairperson, having, again, staff here and detailed infor­ these are very detailed questions that my mation, I cannot give actual dates or times, but I honourable friend should have taken the time do know that the money that was allocated for through the Estimates process to ask when staff BabyFirst and EarlyStart and all of our other was available, so I could answer in detail these programs was spent on those programs through questions. [interjection] Oh, you know, the the Children and Youth Secretariat. member fo r Burrows (Mr. Martindale) says bring your briefing book next time. For someone that, again, appears to be a Minister of Family Ms. Cer illi: I guess one of the things we would Services-in-waiting, he seems to have no ask fo r is to maybe see a budget for that understanding or no sense or any idea of the kind program. You know, I am interested in finding of activity that is involved and expects that every out how the money flowed. The $2.76 million minister should have every detailed number and this year for that program should be accounted date and figure at their finger tips. He is so out for in a specific budget for that program. Does to lunch, Mr. Chairperson, that I am not sure the minister have that in the Children and Youth there would ever be any confidence in his ability Secretariat to show how much money is going to to provide the kind of leadership that might be pay, fo r example, the salaries of the nurses and needed in the Department of Family Services. the home visitors, and how much money is going to the other aspects of the program? But, anyway, Mr. Chairperson, again, believe the funding kicked in in June. It was Mr s. Mitch el son: Again, that is an Estimates halfway through the year, and so it would have question, and I will seek to get that information possibly been June. I do not know whether it from staff of the Children and Youth Secretariat was-these are details-I believe it was June of and provide it for my honourable friend. 4292 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999

Ms . Cerilli: Are you waiting for me to do a BabyFirst program and the EarlyStart program, handspring or what? Yes, Mr. Chairperson. and some ofthe specific communities. We have Hello-o! expressed the concern that, while all Manitoba families on social allowance are losing the The Acting Chairpers on (Mr. McAl pi ne): money from the National Child Benefit, that not The honourable member for Radisson, I believe, all families are going to have access in their wishes to be recognized. I would remind all community to the kind of programs that are very honourable members that there is a degree of much home-based related. They are not the kind respect that is owed to the Chair, and I would of programs where you can sort of fly off and ask that that be provided, and ask the honourable participate and then go home. They are programs member to pose her question now. that are designed to be sort of community based. I think the minister would agree. So I am Ms . Cerilli : Mr. Chairperson, with all due wanting to see if there are programs in respect, I will let you know when I am going to communities like Brochet, Sherridon, or South wrap up or nearing the end, otherwise we can Indian Lake, fo r example, and where those just sort of keep going back and forth with families have to go if they are not in that asking questions. community to get access to some of those programs? I am interested in knowing sort of the regional implementation of the program as well. Mrs . Mi tchels on: I want to make it clear on the I think the minister had said there were actually record that no fam ily, as a result of the National 17 nurses. Originally there was a target of 1 0 Child Benefit, is worse off. That was one of the nurses. There are 17 nurses. Did she say that principles. [interjection] No, that was one of the out of 17 nurses that have been hired or will be principles. hired, because she said that there are different The Acting Chairpers on (Mr. McAl pi ne): levels of readiness among the regional health Order, please. I have recognized the honourable authorities, so how many nurses are currently Minister of Family Services to respond to a operating under the program? question. If there are other members that wish to ask a question, I would appreciate it if they I do not know if she addressed the issue I would get the attention of the Chair, and I will raised earlier in terms of the workload and the respond accordingly. The honourable minister, requirements on those nurses. Are they being to complete your response. hired by the regional health authorities just as regular nurses, and they are doing all sorts of Mrs . Mi tchels on: Thank you very much. The other duties besides what is required of them two goals of the National Child Benefit were to under this program? reduce the depth of child poverty and to try to ensure that people were better offworking than Mrs . Mi tchels on: We gave money to the on welfare. So the focus of the National Child regional health authorities to hire nurses Benefit-and my honourable friend from specifically for the BabyFirst program. So that Radisson sort of makes faces and noises. These is their job. It is additional resources. It is not were principles that were endorsed by all taking resources away from other activities of ministers of social services across the country public health nurses through the regional health including the New Democrats in British authorities. Columbia and the New Democrats in Saskat­ But as to how many nurses are hired through chewan. So this is not something that Manitoba each regional health authority and how many dreamed up or goals or a vision or objectives home visitors are hired through each, and where that were set out by Manitoba. They were each regional health authority is at, I do not have principles or goals that were set out by all that information here today, but I will get the provinces and territories and endorsed by the answer andprovide it. fe deral government.

Ms . Cerilli : I am wanting to ask specifically So, you know, it is fine to be in opposition about the availability of programs like the and to think that you would do things differently, July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4293 but it is a diffe rent reality being in government pockets as a result of the National Child Benefit. and understanding what the issues are and That then is I think what most of us would have regardless of political stripe having to come to agreed at the time when we talked about and some sense of what objectives should be implemented the program, was to try to nationally for some sort of national program. So encourage fam ilies to think better than welfare I will go back to saying that British Columbia as a career option or the only opportunity or the and Saskatchewan endorsed the goals and the only hope. principles, and one of the underlying statements was that no fam ily would be worse off as a We have put in place programs in Manitoba result. to work with single parents, to move them out of the cycle of poverty, off of welfare and into the The objective was not to increase welfare workforce. As they move into the workforce, rates because welfare will always be a low we want to ensure that if they are making a low income, last resort option, and that is reality income, they have additional support through the because I know fo r a fa ct that in British National Child Benefit fo r their children. Columbia they provide less per child through their welfare system than Manitoba does. Now The fe deral government committed I think it you tell me whether a child in Vancouver living was $850 million in the first year, and I think in a welfare fam ily gets $103 per child is better they have committee another $850 million in the off than a fam ily on welfare living in Winnipeg next two years. The ultimate goal would be that where we provide minimum of $] 16 per child, there would be no child that would be supported and as children get older in Manitoba they get through the welfare system because all children more money. British Columbia, Vancouver does would be supported through a fe deral payment, not make any exception fo r older children. the National Child Benefit. So the ultimate goal Every child gets $103. would be the fe deral government providing enough money so provinces would not have to So, I mean, when we talk about issues and support children on welfare. That payment we talk about a New Democratic philosophy would be coming directly fr om the fe deral versus a Conservative philosophy, we see that government. the New Democrats in British Columbia are more punitive than the Conservative government So dollar fo r dollar, as the fe deral govern­ in Manitoba when it comes to providing support, ment increased support to welfare families through welfare, fo r children. So I think that through the National Child Benefit, those dollars needs to be on the record because I think my were reinvested into programs that would honourable fr iend needs to think twice before support families at risk, through programs like she makes faces and moans and groans when we BabyFir st, EarlyStart, Stop F AS, the Women talk about the principle of the National Child and Infant Nutrition Program, all of those Benefit being that no fam ily would be worse off, programs that have been put in place and and welfare families are not worse off under the developed based on the research and the public National Child Benefit, but they are not better consultation that the Children and Youth off either. Secretariat had done over several years.

* (1610) I know my honourable fr iend has been critical in the past of the Children and Youth That was one of the principles, and that is Secretariat and how they seem to consult and exactly the same in New Democratic British consult and not do anything. Well, I think we Columbia, and it is exactly the same in New have seen the results of the consultation and the Democratic Saskatchewan. So those were the research that the secretariat did in order for us to principles that would underline the National develop programs that national institutions like Child Benefit thatwere endorsed right across the the C.D. Howe Institute are saying other country, accepted by the fe deral government, provinces should fo llow our lead in the develop­ and we have moved on to seeing lower income ment of early intervention programs like we working fam ilies have more money in their have developed, like putting the extra money 4294 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999 into child daycare that we have put in so that the allowance that would not be rece1vmg those child care services and supports are there, the benefits would have access to programs, so our services are there for mentorship and support fo r question and our concern is there are regions of families on welfare and ultimately, hopefully the province and communities in the province less need for services from our health care where there are not programs. My question system, our Child and Family Services system, specifically was to her: are there programs in special needs in the education system or communities like Brochet, Sherridon, South ultimately additional supports from the justice Indian Lake, Granville Lake, Gods Lake system. Narrows, Red Sucker Lake. Princess Harbour, Pine Dock, Matheson Island, Manigotagan, So I think that we have moved in the right Little Grand Rapids. Island Lake, Berens River? direction, and there is a lot more to do. We want to ensure that as more resources become Some of these communities, granted. are available and as we have the opportunity to quite small, but they all have children. They all reinvest more, we will continue to build upon the have children who are living in poverty. They programs that we have put in place to date, all have children that need to benefit from any recognizing and realizing again that we have to advantage that they can. We are concerned that evaluate them all and ensure that they are having the strategy the government is employing is not the desired effect. going to reach those families, and that they are-I think the minister used the words-not going to Now my honourable friend is saying that she be any worse off, but they are not any better off. has heard some comments in the community that Unfortunately, they also do not have access to they are not having the desired effect. I would the kinds of programs that are being created to certainly be interested in hearing some specifics benefitfam ilies and children across the province, around that because ultimately I do not want to so it is a straightforward question. be endorsing or supporting or using taxpayers' dollars to support programs that are not working. If the minister has some explanation of how So if there is some information that she might those communities are going to be accessing have that might lead me to believe that they are services that have been created through the not the right programs, we are not moving in the fu nding through the national child tax benefit, right direction, that there are some problems that is what I am looking fo r in terms of an with them, I think that would be a good answer. If the regional health authorities have a discussion fo r us to have because it then would strategy fo r how to reach those communities allow me to fo llow up and see whether in fa ct with services through outreach with their home the programs are moving in the right direction. visitors. through other ways that the public If not, then I guess we have to reassess them, but health nurses can be involved, through other my understanding right now is that we are ways-I understand there are 15 sites with the getting the programs up and running, that public EarlyStart program. So there are other programs health nurses are being trained, home visitors are that perhaps are going to be put in place because being trained in the BabyFirst program, and we there are regional considerations or geographical are expanding and adding more public health considerations fo r those communities. There are nurses and more home visitors with the all sorts of other communities that I have not additional money that has been provided this listed that are spread out across the province that year. have children that are in need of support and are in need of services. Mr. Ben Sveinson, Acting Chairperson. m the Chair In terms of the other question that the minister raised in response to my question, the Ms. Cer illi: Mr. Chairperson, that was a very information I have is that the programs that the long answer, but the minister did not address my government has announced are not as extensive question. The whole basis also behind the way in the community as the minister and the they have approached the national child tax government have led us to believe, and now she benefit was the fam ilies that are on social has announced that there are going to be July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4295 additional staff resources. There is additional that my staff may have that information in the fu nding in this budget. I would have to look at Child and Youth Secretariat. If it is there and the date for when we contacted some of these available, it will be shortly fo rthcoming; organizations. When we were talking to people otherwise, we will get that information from the in the community, that was the information, that regional health authorities. the announcements fo r the programs were not being met in reality, that the home visitors were Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): I just have a not as far along in undertaking the kind of home fe w questions for the Minister of Family visits that were hoped for in the community, the Services. In the Estimates process, we got into a kind of public health nurse services were not bit of an argument about something, and the forthcoming. minister did not really get a chance to clarify herself. So I would like to give her another Perhaps what the minister is saying is that chance either now or take it as notice, and that the program was a little slower in getting off the has to do with the clawback of the National ground than they had hoped. If that is what she Child Benefit. I was suggesting to the minister wants to provide as an answer, or if what she has in Estimates that even families who are working tried to explain, that is, I guess, what has or have a member working ar.d are getting happened with the program. That is why I was partial assistance from Employment and Income raising the question, because the way the Assistance are having the National Child Benefit minister and the government had announced the money clawed back. program and led us to believe was going to be the extent to the program, that that was not The minister at that time indicated that was actually what was happening in the community, not accurate, and so I would like to have a that the home visitors seem to have been a little clarification of that because some individuals slower in getting going and slower in getting that we had talked to, including one individual hired, that there were not the numbers. who has been working fu ll time as a teaching assistant at a school and who has three or fo ur The real point that I wanted to make and the children, said that the money was clawed back. question I wanted to ask is fo r the minister to So I am wondering if the minister could clarify provide some explanation of what those com­ that fo r me or take it as notice. munities that I put on the record, those kinds of communities, aboriginal communities, fo r the Mrs. Mitchelson: I will take that as notice and most part, are going to receive in terms of get back. There is a whole issue around it. I services that are going to be funded by the know and I am thinking back to now when the national child tax benefit, that are part of the National Child Benefit was implemented. The ChildrenFirst strategy that is being put fo rward fe deral government indicated they were going to by this government, that is going to be incor­ pay, but they had fo rgotten about those that were porated into the regional health authorities in a working part time. There is a working income number of ways, perhaps Family Services supplement that I think the fe deral government involved and other programs, Education and paid. I just do not have the detail at the tip of other programs, but our concern is that there are my fingers, but, anyway, there were a significant fam ilies that are not benefitingfr om the national number of people that were going to be losers as child tax benefit and are also not receiving any a result. One of the principles was that no one program access because of the jurisdiction in would lose anything; no one would be worse off. which they live. So we had to go back as provinces and negotiate with the fe deral government a sum which * (1620) probably did not cover all of what it should have Mrs. Mitchel son: I will have to take note, as I from the fe deral government, but provinces read Hansard, of all the communities that she has made up the difference through reinvestment in asked about, determine which regional health the National Child Benefitto ensure that families authorities they are in, and get some answers were not penalized in any way. That may be back on what the strategy might be fo r each part of the answer fo r my honourable friend, but regional health authority. I would indicate again I will try to get more detail. 4296 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999

Mr. Ma rti ndale: I would like to ask the the cost of the home visits, home assessments, minister a couple of questions about Taking that sort of thing. Charge! Some time ago I had asked for a copy of the evaluation, and I believe I may have talked As we know, the fe es are quite substantial to the assistant deputy minister fo r Employment fo r individuals who are going through this and Income Assistance. I also asked questions private, non-profit agency and other agencies. I about this in Estimates, and I am just going from am wondering if the minister can tell me if there memory here. I think what I was originally told are any grants going to Adoption Options, was that the evaluation had to go to the board especially in light of the fa ct that, you know, the first, which is entirely reasonable, but my rules have changed since Bill 48, The Adoption recollection is that I may have inquired either Act. months ago or possibly even up to a year ago about the evaluation, and I know that I asked Mrs. Mit ch elso n: I am not aware of any money again about it in Estimates this year. that has gone to Adoption Options. I do know that we did indicate we would work with them, I am wondering if the minister can tell me and if in fact there was a fam ily in circumstances what the holdup is fo r passing on that evaluation where they could not pay-I mean I think there and when I can expect to get it. was a sliding scale. I do not want to put anything on the record that I am not absolutely certain of, Mrs . Mitch elso n: It is my understanding that but we are not giving them grants as such, grants there is a project review committee, because it to an external agency to deliver a service. was a federal-provincial initiative. It was a project review committee that does include My sense was that we would work with Taking Charge! and both levels of government. them if in fact there were some financial That report has to go to the project review difficulties surrounding any specific individual committee, and they have to accept it. At that adoption case and see whether, in fact, we could point in time, once that has been signed off by help support that fam ily through that process. the project review committee, it will be available But I would rather check on that before that is fo r public release. used. It seems to me those kinds of discussions were held. But as far as giving them a grant, an My understanding is that the fe deral­ outright grant or an annual grant, no. provincial joint management committee has not yet seen the report and met to endorse it or Mr. Martinda le: Can the minister also find out whatever, and they would have been the com­ fo r me if there is any taxpayers' money going to mittee that commissioned the review. My sense Adoption Options and get back to me? is that that should be happening anytime in the very near future. I mean, I do not know whether Mrs . Mitchels on : Sure. it is this week or next week or two weeks from now. I could try and get that date fo r my Mr. Ma rtindale: Switching to a diffe rent topic, honourable friend, but once they have reviewed and if this is more appropriate fo r the Minister of and signed off on the report, it will be available. Education and Training (Mr. McCrae), I am sure I will ensure that my honourable fr iend gets one the Minister of Family Services will tell me. as soon as it can be made public. There used to be a phone number that people could call who were looking fo r jobs, and it was Mr. Ma rtinda le: I thank the minister for that some sort of a, what shall we say, electronic answer. Switching now to the topic of not-for­ voice mail, and you pressed diffe rent numbers profit adoption agencies, I believe I asked the and you got diffe rent categories. It had listings minister questions in the past about Adoption of available jobs and how to fo llow up. Options, and it would be my understanding of the way the new legislation works that not-for­ My understanding is that currently this profit adoption agencies can charge fe es on a phone service no longer exists. Now people can basis that really has to do with cost recovery, go to employment centres and there are kiosks in that there is a fe e fo r home visits, and that covers malls and libraries, but I am wondering why this July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4297 phone number and this phone service was change. I would be interested in hearing the discontinued. minister's thoughts on that.

Mrs. Mitchelson: There used to be employment Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I think we or training programming as part of the Depart­ look very seriously at the composition and the ment of Family Services. That was moved over board makeup and the composition and the to Education and Training when it became makeup of the children who are involved with training, and all of the training functions moved the Winnipeg agency. The statistics that come over to the Department of Education. forward from the agency tell us that 70 percent of the children are aboriginal in origin. We had * (1630) one aboriginal representative on the board and several recommendations that we should change So I would not be aware of us, in the the mix of representation on the board to reflect Department of Family Services, having a phone more the nature of the families that Winnipeg line that would provide lists of jobs. I would Child and Family deals with. presume that if it were a provincial government line, it would be with the training part of That recommendation came fo rward from a Education and Training. So I will undertake to committee that was pulled together of status ask my colleague the Minister of Education (Mr. treaty Indians through our mandated native child McCrae) for some information on that. welfare agencies. We certainly had urban aboriginal representation-the Manitoba Metis Federation, the Winnipeg agency, and of course Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, I thank the my department involved. A report came forward, minister for that answer. and there was a little bit of turf protection from time to time. The native agencies sometimes I would like to ask the minister again if she think that they should have sole jurisdiction or has any information about when the baby responsibility for every status child whether they Schmidt inquest report might be out. live in Winnipeg or out of Winnipeg. You know, the Metis community would like to have their Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, no, I do own child and family services agency. not. Due to judicial independence, we just have to await the finalization of that report by Judge There have been reports that have Conner. recommended a native agency in the city of Winnipeg. I guess for me it is not an us-and­ Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, going on to them issue. I think that we all need to be around another question regarding Child and Family the table and we all need to put the child first in Services, I have the minister's news release of any decisions that are made around the best June 25 about new board appointments to interests of that child. So we should not be Winnipeg Child and Family Services. I am fightingwith each other, because sometimes our wondering if the new board will be undergoing fights with each other get in the way of some sort of orientation, and if the minister can providing the best service for the child. I try to tell me what sort of expectations she has or the say that in every meeting that I have. I do not agency has about any changes in direction or the think it matters who owns the agency. I think it philosophy behind these appointments, which I matters how we deal and how we support think we are very interested in. I put a children and families who need our support. suggestion on the record in Estimates that this is the kind of thing the government should be So I think we have tried to bring together at doing or should consider doing, and a day or two the board level people who seem to have that later the news release came out. I am sure it was belief and want to work together. So you will in the works for a long time before I suggested see reflected in there those who are status, those it. I am wondering if there is an expectation that who are Metis, urban, mostly urban, but the direction of the agency may change or the someone with a connection to the reserve, mandate may change or the philosophy may Sydney Garrioch, who I think would have a lot 4298 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999 of respect from members on all sides, all three facing, with low commodity prices, high input parties in this House. I think he does really care costs, high transportation costs. and wants to get beyond the politics of the issues. He has had a good track record of The minister attended the ministers' dealing in a very, I think, sensitive and positive conference just a couple of weeks ago in Prince way with families that he has been involved Albert, and I wonder whether the minister and with. the ministers fr om other provinces had any discussion as to how we can address the whole So I am hopeful that we will be able to get a issue of getting the farm community back on its better sense of how we deai-I have often said fe et and addressing the low commodity prices that you cannot deal with aboriginal families and and high input. Are there any suggestions as to children without having aboriginal people how we are going to help the farm community? involved in the decisions, and I am hopeful that the new board will be able to look at what is I guess it also involves international happening today. I mean, I have heard some subsidies that other countries are prepared to concerns raised in the past by Ma Mawi, fo r provide fo r their farming community, but here in instance, that have said, you know, we have Canada our fe deral government has very much gone out and we have recruited fam ilies in our pulled away fr om agriculture, and although we community to be fo ster parents and take children are focusing this year on the issue of the people in, but the agency does not necessarily place of the southwest part of the province with children in those foster homes when we recruit serious flooding problems, it is an ongoing them and we train them. So I am hoping that challenge that we have of low commodity prices. some of those issues will get addressed as a result of the new board taking a serious look at I would ask the minister whether there was what is happening today and how we can better any discussion on that and any proposals as to try to serve children. how we can have a long-term solution for this whole situation that is facing the farming I know very often that when you move a community. child into a suburb who may have grown up or have been located and going to school in the Mr. Eno s: Mr. Chairman, I do thank the core area, and you remove them fr om their honourable member fo r that question. That is a community, from their family, fr om their school, very important question, and she is absolutely that sometimes we are not serving them any right, that while the fo cus has tended to be on the better even in a caring fo ster home in another immediate urgency of those flood-strickened community. So, you know, these are all things farmers, the bigger question that she raises is that I am hopeful that the new board-yes, they there. Commodity prices are not improving. In are going to do an orientation and have an fact, a crop that was helpful to many farmers in orientation and a bit of board development, get staying on the black side of the ledger, our big to know each other, and then try to determine canola crop, this year is going nowhere. So that how they can best serve the needs of children has caused a lot of us great concern. through the agency. So I am pretty hopeful. I am very impressed with the people who have made the commitment to want to be there and be I am not going to give an overlengthy part of the team. argument, but simply to indicate that there was a lot of discussion about how we can fashion a Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, I have a couple better support safety system fo r our farmers of questions for the Minister of Agriculture. across Canada. We have, Mr. Chairman, as you know, three major programs that have come into Mr. Chairman, we know that we faced real being over the last 30-40 years beginning with challenges in the farming community this spring, our Crop Insurance Program that was introduced particularly in the southwest part of the in the early '60s. Then my colleague introduced province, but the heavy rainfall only added to the the NISA program in the early '90s, an income many other problems that farmers have been stabilization program. The present minister and July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4299

Minister Lyle Vanclief and provincial ministers paperwork that is involved here, and it is introduced the AIDA program. keeping a Jot of bureaucrats busy, both provincially and fe derally. We have three major programs, and part of the difficulty is they are kind of rubbing So to answer the honourable member's shoulders on occasion, overlapping on occasion. question, I really think we ought to be There is some concern about, you know, if we challenged, and I invite her to keep challenging are pursuing the AIDA-type course, strictly a me in that respect, that we use this whole farm receipt course, is that impinging on crop discussion, this whole focus on safety nets not insurance and taking away fr om the value of just to tinker with the individual programs but crop insurance. Now on top of that, these maybe actually to come up with an innovative programs all have their own administration solution that would bring efficiencies to the costs, and they are substantial. The crop program and provide the maximum benefits insurance administration costs are in the 70 under these programs to our farmers who millions of dollars. That, quite fr ankly, is not regrettably, I have to acknowledge-as I hear acceptable to me. More of that money should be reports from diffe rent parts of the world and going into enhancing the program. certainly here in North America, it looks like a substantial crop is coming off both in the United We also have the NISA administration States and in Canada, despite our troubled areas, which is now about eight years old, I would say, these other areas in Alberta, the western part of '91. That is another administration, and we are Saskatchewan and our own Manitoba, as the in the process of developing an AIDA member knows. There are some very excellent administration. I have made the suggestion to cross-crop prospects right now. All of that does my colleagues and to the fe deral minister. let us not auger well for any fu ture serious improve­ challenge all of us, our national safety net ment in these commodity prices. people, advisers from the diffe rent farm sectors. Is it not possible to put all those programs into a I toyed with it at the time we exited GRIP, box and fashion out a program that carries the fo r instance, which was a very successful best fe atures of all three and some income income support program. Many of the farmers support, because I see that looming as are now reminding me of that fact as I know particularly important as these commodity prices they were then. I challenged the crop insurance stay where they are at. board of directors in the organization to see whether we could not build an element of GRIP * (1640) into our Crop Insurance Program, maybe not quite as rich as the GRIP program was but at The basic Crop Insurance Program insures least build into, on top of the yield insurance that against yield, particularly important to the we provide in crop insurance, build some Prairies here where we can have, through measure. drought or flood or other things, very basic deficiencies on yield, and a combination of That could change, as I say, with the will of NISA and AIDA as an income support-based governments. If we have a responsive federal program. That would depend on the will of the government that would put some of the money governments, both provincial and fe deral, to back that they took away from western what extent we put money into that program. agriculture, $750 million in the Crow, before the Paul Martin budget that did that, the safety net I know deep down in my heart that I think to envelope, all the years that my colleague was begin with we could probably save a hundred administering, was running at about $860 million dollars in administration costs if we put million, the fe deral share that was arbitrarily them all into one administration. It would make capped at $600 million. I am not saying maybe it much less frustrating fo r the farmer who claw it all back, but if we move that up to, say, currently complains about filling out his NISA $700 million, look fo r $50 million, $60 million, form, filling out his AIDA form, filling out his $70 million in efficiencies in the administration crop insurance fo rm. It is an awful lot of of these programs, we might be able to put 4300 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999

together a package that could respond to what I going to be more savings to them. What is this believe to be a very legitimate and a very serious government prepared to do to ensure that our issue that farmers are fac ing not just in Manitoba farmers are not cheated again and have to pay but throughout Canada. additional costs, which they really cannot afford in this time of low-commodity prices? Ms . Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, one of the issues that the minister did not address that has Mr. En os : Well, Mr. Chairman, our province become a real burden for farmers is the increased was a fu ll participant in the extensive review that transportation costs. Recently, we saw a study was done on this whole question of transpor­ that indicated that railways are not passing on tation by fo rmer Justice Estey. I am satisfiedthat their savings. There were supposed to be sub­ the mechanics of an implementation process of stantial savings with rail line abandonment, and some of the recommendations is now in place. those were supposed to be passed on to My response to the member would be simply producers. It had been raised before, but a recent that we would have to allow that process to study by the Wheat Board indicates that in demonstrate what many in the industry believe fact somewhere in the range of $224 million can achieve the kind of efficiencies, the kind of annually is going to the railways in excess fu ndamental changes, and bring into transpor­ profits that should be shared with the producers, tation what has been so sadly lacking, an but it is not being shared. That is a lot of money element of competition that will discipline the that could come back into the farming kind of changes that need to be taken into community. consideration.

We are now in the process where we have What I do know with certainty, Mr. had the Estey report tabled and we have Mr. Chairman, is that additional regulation in an Kruger, who is working to implement the Estey already overregulated transportation system will report. If we are going to have that report, we not work. That is what we have today. For me have to ensure that the savings are passed onto to fo r one moment take seriously her suggestion, the producers. There is some way that those will we pull away fr om the table, no, because savings have to be passed on to the producers that implies that we are satisfied with what we and that the railways are co-operative with short have today. We are not satisfied with what we lines to ensure that we do have joint running have today. We are not satisfied at all with what rights, revenue sharing, so short lines can we have today. So I believe that Mr. Kruger and operate and someway, again, offe r the producers the players involved know that if grain is to be a better service. moved in today's new freight regime without the benefit of the Crow that those efficiencies have I would like to ask the minister then if he to be found. has had any discussion with his colleague the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Praznik) and had Now, there are of course other things that input into how we can ensure that the savings will be taking place in the meantime. In many that are supposed to be realized from respects, the drive fo r greater livestock, greater rationalization of the railways will be passed on utilization of fe ed within the province, partic­ to producers. Can he indicate if his government ularly a province like Manitoba, will continue to is prepared to pull away from the table on these take place. There has been a slight hiccup in that negotiations, if the railways are not prepared to process with respect to hogs because of the, you share their revenues and offe r joint running know, pricing problems. rights fo r those? We cannot have the producers sacrifice their freight rate caps and all of the * (1650) other things that are detrimental to the producers if the railways on the other hand are not going to I am concerned, I might just throw in right share some of the benefits that they have and now, I am deeply concerned about the American continue to provide service. We know that the action with respect to beef cattle. Just as we excess profits now are somewhere over $200 were beginning in a very positive way to million. If more lines are abandoned, there is encourage more fe eding of our own livestock, July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4301 our fe eder animals, fe eder calves instead of Mr. Chomi ak: What I intend to do during the shipping them to Alberta or south or elsewhere, course of the discussion, we have concurrence, is and we see nice developments as we saw in the just touch back on a fe w issues for fo llow-up Hamiota area with a major fe edlot, our other related to the minister. fe edlots are filling up and encouraging, this is going to work directly against that process. In Just with relation to the question that I raised fact, the animals that should be consuming the in the House on several occasions with respect to grain here in Manitoba and thus avoiding those the Pan American Games, the minister I thought freight costs and those shipping charges are now gave the impression certainly that there was no going to be shipped elsewhere so that the effect, if I understand the minister correctly, he Americans can fe ed their surplus grain to those can correct me if I am wrong, from the Pan Am cattle. That is the kind of a double whammy that Games on the acute care sector, on the health we are fac ing. care system. I do not think that is in fact true. So there are very serious policy issues on Now, the minister might have meant this front that will keep me busy this summer. I something else, but there is no doubt that people might indicate to the honourable members and to in the system, many, many people in the system, the House that I am leaving at 5:30 in the have communicated to me special arrangements, morning fo r Salt Lake City in Utah. I want to special changes and special provisions that are assure all members that when this little Menno­ being made for the purposes of the Pan nite goes there I will not be returning as a American Games. So I wonder if the minister Mormon, but nonetheless I will be discussing might comment on-[inter jection] Did you want agricultural policies there with American secre­ to ask a question now? [interjection] Our leader taries of Agriculture and Mexican secretaries of just wanted to ask another quick question. Agriculture in what has become, this is about the Perhaps we will come back to my question. fifth annual meeting of this group that works toward trying to resolve some of the agricultural Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Oppositi on): trade problems and issues between our three thank the member for Kildonan. I just have one countries. question. An individual, Menard Canada, is a Mr. Dave Chomi ak (Kildonan): During the person who has come to me and apparently has course of the Estimates debate, the minister took been in touch with the Department of Health under notice a number of questions and over a long period of time about a concern he information that he would provide to me. I had that the Health Sciences Centre dental clinic wonder if the minister has any timetable as to had people that both worked for the public sector when we would be receiving that detailed and were having a private practice. Now, I do information. not know whether this issue is-apparently it has been asked before in the Estimates. I promised Hon. Eri c Stefanson (Minister of Health): the individual I would raise it with you. do not have anything here this afternoon. I know Apparently the Department of Health has I do have some of the information compiled. I investigated it or it has come to their attention, expect I can get it to the member very shortly. It and I would like to know whether the minister is partly driven by a staff issue. The assistant has the results of this investigation. Was this deputy minister of the fi nancial administration against policy? Is it against policy? What fo llow­ side, Susan Murphy has actually been on up has happened with the individual who made holidays. It is really her area that compiles the the complaint, and what is the status of the majority of the information that the member was situation with a citizen who feels-the individual asking fo r. As I did undertake to him, I am not fe els it is an abuse of a public asset by a private going to wait until I have all the information and person. send him one batch, at whatever point in time that would be. I think I do have a reasonable Mr. Stefanson: The Leader of the Opposition is amount of it that I can get to him certainly right that this issue did come up in Estimates. I within the next very short period of time, Mr. believe it was the member for Inkster (Mr. Chairman. Lamoureux) who raised it. He did not indicate 4302 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999

what his source of it was or the individual. He Mr. Stefanson: I will certainly provide the did not name an individual or provide any source member with more detailed information and of it, but he did raise the same issue. I had the potentially a contact person either within the department check into it, and I am going now department or within one of the organizations from memory, but basically the result of it was like the Winnipeg Hospital Authority. But that there was no substantiation to it. There were certainly the information that I have been no problems. I am certainly prepared to get a provided consistently is that the Pan Am Games more full briefing, again, from the department are not in any way taking away services from and provide that to the Leader of the Opposition. Manitobans, that the issue of some beds in some of our hospital facilities is being dealt with on As I would have put on the record at that beds that were impacted by the summer closure time, the checking done by the department into anyway, that would have been impacted by the the issue could not substantiate any problems in summer closure, irrespective of whether the Pan this area, recognizing, again, as I am repeating Am Games were here or not. If there is a need myself, that was on the basis of not being fo r additional beds as a result of the Pan Am provided with any source, nobody to tum to to Games, the option is, then, there to go after the say: what is your source of this? What can you summer-scheduled beds. That really is the point to that shows there is some problem here? contingency plan that is in place to deal with the Now the Leader of the Opposition, I believe, did Pan Am Games. So the information I have name an individual, and I am more than prepared consistently received is that there are no beds to have the department look into this issue again, being taken out of circulation specifically to contact that individual, fo llow up with that address the Pan Am Games, and therefore these individual on this issue and get back to the Pan Am Games are not in any way removing member. some services available to Manitobans. So the opportunity is there to provide beds based on the Mr . Doer : There may be a file, then, on this summer schedule of beds, and that would be individual or a member of his fam ily that would addressed if something happened that beds were be knowledgeable of this issue, and it does look required. But I can certainly provide a more like it goes back to the early '90s. He is not that detailed summary to the member, and I am sure I easy to contact because he does not have a could probably put him in contact with some­ phone. I guess what he wants to know is whether body who could provide a fu rther explanation of the Department of Health has ever investigated. the entire issue, Mr. Chairman. Do dentists have the right or have they had the right to use the dental clinic at the Health Mr . Ch omiak: Mr. Chairperson, we have also Sciences Centre and also have a practice of discussed in Question Period the issue of the private patients that they bill out of a public summer closures, and we have also discussed on facility? That is the question, the specific previous occasions the minister indicating that question, as I recall it, and I would look forward the minister is contemplating, as part of the new to a response from the minister on it. Any policy of providing information to Manitobans, information he can give me, I will pass on to the to provide some fo rm of regular reporting. We individual when he drops into our officesas he is know the minister receives weekly stats on beds wont to do. Thank you. in the system or certainly the system has a means Mr . Chomiak: Concluding my question, Mr. of accounting fo r weekly bed status. Chairperson, certainly the information provided to me is that there are contingencies being made, Can the minister provide us with that and there clearly has to be a plan because there information? Will he table the information with are going to be 5,000-plus athletes and numerous respect to the bed counts and the status of that on thousands of visitors here. It is quite clear that a weekly basis that is occurring? contingencies are being made. I wonder if the minister can enlighten me as to what the plan is * (1700) or who is providing the plan, and I will contact the individual or individuals just to acquaint Mr . Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, well, the myself with what the circumstances are. member is right that we did discuss the benefits July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4303 of doing something like a quarterly report on commitment is for putting in place adequate health, not unlike we see in the Department of community-based resources, keeping in mind Finance. It does a quarterly report on the that the Winnipeg Long Term Care Authority finances. That still is an initiative that I am has made some requests from the provincial currently working on with the department to do government with respect to funding require­ just that, to put out a quarterly report on a ments and needs. number of indicators, a number of statistics on the current status of health care issues in the Mr. Stefanso n: Mr. Chairman, well, the province of Manitoba. The member is also right member is right. I did meet with the community that I do receive regular briefings on issues like mental health group which I believe were bed status, bed utilizations. meeting with some MLAs, and I know they met with the member for Kildonan. They left me a So again, I would expect that some of that presentation. We obviously went through that information would fo rm the basis of a quarterly presentation. I would describe our meeting as a report in terms of issues like our bed status and very good meeting in terms of an opportunity for so on. We are still pursuing that issue. It is them to bring these issues certainly to my something that I intend to implement, that I attention. On the one hand, they were very support. Obviously, our first quarter of this complimentary of what could be described as the fiscal year ended at the end of June, so we are first phase of mental health reform back in the currently working on that entire issue of early 90s, the shift to community-based mental potentially doing a quarterly report for the first health reform. But they did express some quarter of 1999-2000. concern about the further implementation of So there will be an opportunity to provide what we described as phase two, and that is some of the information the member is referring some of the additional service adjustments in the to at that time, and I will take the rest of his community in terms of counselling, in terms of question as notice and certainly provide him preventative measures and so on, in terms of what information I can on beds. I know one of monitoring and those kinds of issues which were the issues I think that is still outstanding, and I raised both in their submission and in the expect that we can respond to, as part of the discussion I had with them. information I said that we should have available shortly I think, is the whole issue of the bed I undertook to obviously review all of the listing that the member gets every year. issues that they raised with me, including the issue of funding and to report back after I have Mr. Cho miak: Mr. Chairperson, also in had an opportunity to review all of the issues, Question Period I raised the issue of Sara Riel with a view as to which ones we are able to closure. In conjunction with that the minister, implement and over what kind of a time frame. like most MLAs, has met with an organization of So, I obviously take the information they mental health advocates-! guess would be the provided to me very seriously and will be best way to term it-who are, frankly-and I responding to all of those issues in the very near encourage it-meeting with all MLAs to acquaint future. them with the issues concerning the mental health community, largely on the basis that most Mr. Cho miak: Mr. Chairperson, with the issue individuals do not know enough, even elected of Sara Riel's temporary closing and with the officials, about what is happening in the mental discussion about psychiatric beds, what is the health field and the pain and suffering that status of the issue of additional facilities to be people go through and that fr ankly this, without provided in a short term? doubt, has been basically a nonpartisan issue in this Chamber. The mental health issue has been Mr. Stefanso n: Well, Mr. Chairman, as the nonpartisan in this Chamber certainly as long as member for Kildonan knows, the Sara Riel I have been here. temporarily closed their crisis stabilization unit and that will reopen on Monday, July 19. On that basis, I wonder if the minister can During that period of time, services have outline what his commitment was or what his continued to be available at and with facilities 4304 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999 and organizations like Salvation Army, Seneca one of them, and from the organizations that met House and others. I have continued to ask the with me and on behalf of the various groups, it is department whether or not there have been any certainly an important issue. As the member problems, any issues during this period of time, knows, the WCA has also been working on this these two weeks, and none of them have been issue. brought to my attention. But, again, in terms of many of the other issues fac ing mental health, it So I am looking at all of the issues they is a matter of striking the right balance between raised with a view to, again, I guess I am being beds and bed requirements in our health care repetitive, but to which ones we can implement facilities and the supports out there in the and over what time frame. recognizing that the community. That was certainly a major part of groups would like to hear back from me and the discussion I had with the Community Mental from government fairly shortly. I am sensitive Health group and will fo rm part of our review of to that, so it is certainly my objective and our the recommendations that they leftwith me. objective to attempt to respond to these issues raised in the very near fu ture. Obviously, when Mr. Chomiak: I think we can probably one of the issues has a financial impact, it is a generally conclude that the community supports matter of looking at the year we are currently in are not sufficiently in place, and, consequently, as well as looking fo rward to the next budget the closure of the community-based fac ility like cycle. That is part of the review I am Sara Riel must, by logical extension, have an undertaking. impact on community resources. The minister has indicated that he is going to be reviewing the *(1710) proposals, and I accept that. I think that we can all agree that without placing blame, there has to Mr. Chomiak: With respect to META be a major initiative and a major step with [phonetic], the minister has acknowledged that respect to community-based services. We Phase 2, as it has been suggested, has not gone accepted that when we dealt with the amend­ well. There really does need to be a new ments to The Mental Health Act last year. The orientation and a new initiative and a new drive, question is: what is the time frame that we are similar to what was undertaken in Phase 1 to looking at? The minister has indicated he is implement the changes required fo r Phase 2. looking at those proposals. Frankly, I would Does the minister agree with that? change some of the structure of the Department of Health as it affects mental health in order to Mr. St efan son : WelL I am not sure that I would affect the changes, but that is an administrative describe it that way. Again, the group that I met decision the minister is going to have to make. I with representing many of the mental health do not think you can make the changes without a groups really raised some specific issues that can change in some of that administrative emphasis. be dealt with within our existing structure, I believe. But, as I have indicated, I am reviewing But having said that and given that all of them, and if some structural changes are gratuitous advice, did the minister put a time line required to better provide the services in this in terms of when he is going to reach a decision area, I am not rigid on that at all. Our objective or when he is going to get back to this group? I throughout this review will be to provide the think we can all agree that generally, without community services that are needed in the most going into political rhetoric, the services require efficient and effective fa shion. So structure was additional supports. not raised necessarily as one of the more important issues. I am going in part by recollec­ Mr. Stefanson: Well, Mr. Chairman, I certainly tion, and I do have some of the information here would want to reaffirm our commitment with me now. regarding the mental health services. As I said, the group was very complimentary of the first Again, I am certainly prepared to look at phase of changes to community mental health structure, and if structure is an impediment to services back in the early '90s. They have raised providing the services required, I am more than several issues, of which funding certainly was prepared to look at structure. If the member has July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4305 any specific suggestions or recommendations in and our offices, generally, with specific that area, I am certainly prepared to look at individual claims, those go directly to the them. minister for dealing with with the department. We generally do not bring individual matters to Mr. Chomiak: I do have specific recommen­ the Chamber. I have brought a couple of matters dations, but what I will probably do is reduce to the Chamber under exceptional circum­ them to writing and forward them to the stances, and I want to raise one today because I minister. The fact is that if there was not an want to get a perspective because this individual impediment, those changes would have been is literally sitting on tenterhooks. The minister made, because there are needs and requirements will recall I raised this situation of a woman in the community that have not been met, named Bonnie Ferguson. She has been admittedly by all. I am saying this without diagnosed with breast cancer; she requires heart political slant, because quite publicly I say surgery; she is diabetic. She is one of, she has generally I admit that the Phase 1 went very been told, 60 people on a waiting list for heart welL and in fact Phase 2 is now stalled, and it surgery. Since the matter was raised here, on has been sort of a mantra that has been repeated two occasions she has had to call an ambulance by all, those within and without the system. I in order to deal with her severe angina. The am talking about discussions I have had with minister's office has contacted her twice. and one people who are presently in the system. But I occasion she was not that pleased �ith the will reduce that to writing and provide some contact and the other occasion she was very comments from the minister, with respect. pleased with the contact. The point is that she is still sitting at home suffering from severe What I meant by structural is not just angina; she contacted the hospital today; and we structural in fo rm, but there has to be a are told that, unless she is in the hospital, she is reorientation toward a commitment to the not going to get her surgery moved up despite community-based mental health system. I think her physical condition. a mindset has to be moved along and pushed along in order for those changes to take place. Now, speaking fr ankly, we all know what doctors and what patients do when they have I am going to go on to a new question, severe problems and need surgery, they go into unless the minister has a comment. the hospital in order to be bumped up, which, for better or for worse, has been the procedure and Mr. Stefanson: I appreciate that clarification. I the practice. But the point is: what direction can think in part what has happened in Manitoba and I give to this individual in order to deal-and the right across Canada over the last fe w years is minister has indicated that numerous cardiac that there has been an awful lot of fo cus and surgeries are done-but what does an individual attention on our acute care services in our health without trying to leapfrog in the system, which i� care system, on some of our other community the only recourse open to her-she is sitting at support areas like personal care homes and home ho�e alone suffering daily with angina, has care, �nd so on. So, ifthe member is saying that tw1ce been taken in by an ambulance, has been there 1� a need fo r some additional fo cus brought told she may as well stay in hospital because if to the Importance of this service and the whole she stays in hospital she will get her heart issue of the levels of service and so on, I would surgery b�t is unwilling to jump the queue. not disagree with that, Mr. Chairman. Certainly What adv1ce does the minister have in this that has been part of what has happened from my particular instance? I just spoke with her several meeting, his meeting, and I am sure others that hours ago. the group �s meeting with. That is exactly why we are gomg to be reviewing these recommen­ Mr. Stefanson: The member is right, when he dations in detail, and I expect to be able to ?r a�ybod� else in this Chamber or any respond to some, if not all, of them, fairly . md1v1dual Situation is brought to our attention shortly. we do attempt to fo llow up on it immediately. I� Mr. Chomiak: The minister will know that fact, I was a little disturbed when I had a chance from the numerous letters he receives from m; to follow up on an issue that his Leader raised 4306 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999 about one individual that he claimed had phoned or an actual program announcement, and there I my office three times and had not been was, subjected to the unveiling of a floor plan, responded to. We went back into our files, and quite literally of a floorplan. we had responded to that individual the same day in all three cases. It just happened that the * (1720) individual did not have an answering machine and was not available themselves. So we do Now, one does not criticize the fact that take that very seriously either when it is brought finally the glacial movement of the step-down to our attention or when somebody phones unit has achieved fr uition or, to use a better because when that does happen, obviously the metaphor, there has been a meltdown, and the people themselves are concerned and certainly minister made comments to the effect that, well, deserve to be responded to on a very timely you know, it was an announcement of the basis. approval of the program. I have had my share of announcements and reannouncements under the Again, I am more than prepared to have our government. I mean, I have gone to the Cancer department and my officials look into this Treatment Foundation announcements, have individual's situation, but the best thing that they been to at least fo ur announcements of the same can normally do-and I am sure this individual is project, from approval to the Premier providing­ doing that, based on what the member fo r [ interjection] Pardon me? Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak) has just outlined-is to deal with their own doctor, their own surgeon in An Honourable Member : I did not see you this case and/or with the family doctor as well, there today. because they are the ones that certainly have the expertise, the knowledge of whether or not a Mr. Chomiak: I was there today at the back of situation is emergent or urgent or what is called the room when the minister unveiled the floor elective. Again, I know the member fo r plan. I guess the point is, I mean, we are at the Kildonan is well aware that emergency cases are point where we are making announcements of dealt with in very short order and urgent cases approval of programs. are dealt with in very short order. When it comes to our waiting lists fo r the elective Now, there is no criticism certainly of the processes, we compare quite well right across step-down unit. Good heavens, particularly with Canada. In this area we compare quite well. As the ICU beds being cut down this year, there is a the member himself indicated, we are now doing need fo r the step-down unit, as there was the approximately 1,100 cardiac surgeries a year. need fo r a step-down unit at Children's that we That is up significantly from what we were advocated fo r some time. doing just a fe w years ago. I know that we are in diffe rent political So my advice for this individual would be to circumstances, given that events I think are fast be fo llowing up with his or her surgeon and approaching where there is going to be some doctors, but I am also more than prepared to accountability required, but this was the first have my staff follow up and determine what the time I have actually seen an announcement-well, status of this person is and what can be done to there have been announcements of approval. I deal with their situation. was surprised by the minister, but the reality was you were announcing the approval of a program Mr. Cb omiak: Mr. Chairperson, this is going that is not going to be ready for a year. It just so well, I almost hesitate to proceed down this seemed to me that today's announcement looked next path, but given the general enthusiasm here to me like, you know, we are moving more in the House, I do want to comment. We had an towards that big event that we have been interesting discussion in Question Period today. anticipating in this province since about April It was very interesting. I have to admit in my 25. years as critic, this was the firsttime I have gone to an announcement where, I mean, I went to the Mr. Stefanson: Well, Mr. Chairman, in keeping Health Sciences Centre fu lly expecting a model with the spirit, I do not want the member to read July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4307 too much into today's announcement relative to a criticism, his only criticism is, well, maybe we other events. But as I was saying to him during should have done it a little bit earlier. The reality Question Period, the key issue here fo r Health is we are doing it. It is well supported and it is Sciences Centre and fo r this very important unit going to be state of the art. It is an area that is the commitment of the government, and that is Manitoba really has been a leader in terms of the what took place today, is that the Health whole utilization of the step-down unit, where Sciences Centre has a commitment for this step­ after about six hours in post-operative recovery, down unit. individuals go into a step-down unit. They then do not utilize an intensive care bed, and it ends It is going to cost $1.4 million, and it is not up being better fo r the patient, better for the uncommon, particularly when it comes to capital entire system and so on. improvements, that announcements are made at the time of commitment, because that is at the So I am pleased that the member was there stage when the facility-and in this particular to participate in this very important announce­ case, this particular area of services can go into ment fo r Health Sciences Centre and for the the detailed design and start to order whatever patients of Manitoba, Mr. Chairman. equipment and work towards the redevelopment that has to take place. If the member was there, I Mr. Chomiak: Also fo llowing up on a matter did not see him, otherwise I would have acknow­ that was raised this week, I had occasion to ledged that he was there, as I usually do. But if pursue further the issue of the possible transport he was there, then he would have heard the of patients out of province as a result of comments, not necessarily fr om me, although I shortages fo r radiology and radiology-related know he usually believes what I say. I think he services. In terms of the course of my usually applauds when I am through, but, more discussion, I was advised that, yes, it is one of importantly, he would have heard from people the options being considered in a plan. Prior to like Dr. Bill Lindsay, the head of the cardiac that occurring, two other options are going to be sciences program. He would have heard from undertaken, one of them being additional hours Carol Ringer, the vice-president of Health of operation and longer working overtimes, et Sciences Centre. [interjection] cetera. That raises a very fundamental question. I am wondering if the minister can undertake to Well, the member chooses to zero in on one provide us with information with respect to the comment out of about 20 minutes of comments amount of hours worked overtime and related that were basically nothing but compliments and hours of individuals, certainly in Winnipeg, or accolades and excitement amongst all of the some kind of appreciation as to how much people involved with this project. I had a chance expenditure of provincial revenue has gone which he also--[interjection] That is a reference, towards additional overtime hours in related my Icelandic heritage. I had a chance also to go matters. I am sure the minister has those figures. and look at the existing unit and developed an Can he undertake to table them in the Chamber? even greater appreciation for the value and the need fo r this particular unit. So we have been Mr. Stefanson: Well, Mr. Chairman, I am working with the Health Sciences Centre. I have aware the member has been contacting met with some of the people in this area, some of individuals, I gather, with the Manitoba Cancer the surgeons and people involved in providing Treatment and Research Foundation. I think he the service. They have been very anxious to get was mostly correct with what he put on the the commitment, to get the announcement so record. It is not in any way inconsistent with that they know with absolute certainty that this is what I have said that the immediate focus of that moving forward. It can have further input from organization is to take all of the steps that they the doctors, the nurses and so on. possibly can to improve the services in Manitoba. They are looking at a number of So everybody was extremely excited today, initiatives that will free up additional time in very pleased with this announcement. I am terms of some improved efficiencies having to assuming that the member himself was pleased, do with accessing some of the staff hours and so and, as he has done on other occasions, if he has on. They are also looking at the issue of 4308 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999 additional treatment slots that can be achieved working on, and I wiii be more than pleased to through overtime. report back to the member as we make progress on that issue. So those are the steps that they are currently fo llowing. As well, they are aggressively pur­ Mr. Chomiak: Have the funds been approved suing attempting to attract more radiation for a class in this particular year? therapists. The member is right that as an option on a go-forward basis, depending on how Mr. Stefanson: We have a little bit of successful all of this is, one option that was just flexibility if there is an opportunity to expand put forward was to consider having some enrollment in the upcoming year. That is patients go outside of Manitoba to the United obviously one issue. Within a budget of $2.1 States, primarily in the area of prostate cancer. I biiiion, we do have some flexibility if there is an believe that is currently happening, if I am opportunity in the upcoming academic year to correct, in the provinces of Ontario and Quebec, increase the enrollment. So that is certainly one I believe. But at this particular point in time, it of the issues that has to be addressed, but, Mr. is merely that. It is merely one of many options Chairman, there are other issues that have to be that were put forward as a way of addressing addressed in terms of the logistics, the ability to patient services and waiting times. It is not an do all of this and so on. option that has in any way been accepted. What has been accepted are the options that we have So if all of the other parts can be put discussed in terms of improving efficiencies, together to expand enrollment in the upcoming creating more services here in the province of academic year, 1999, I do not see the financial Manitoba. resources necessarily being an impediment to that. will certainly undertake to pursue providing information on levels of overtime and *(I 730) so on in the whole area of radiation therapy, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Wowc huk: Mr. Chairman, I want to ask the minister a couple of questions with regard to Mr. Chomiak: The minister publicly stated that services that people from my part of the in fact the government was going to expand the province get fr om out of the province, out-of­ number of medical students graduating and province services. enrolled at the University of Manitoba. I have written to the minister on this, and I wonder if Many people from Swan River are the minister can outline fo r me whether or not transferred, go to Hudson Bay or the majority of the class enrolling this year will be expanded. times to Yorkton fo r services. For people that are seriously ill, they end up being medivacked Mr. Ste fanson: Again, the member is right. He to Regina or Saskatoon, using Saskatchewan has written me, and we discussed this somewhat medical services, air ambulances, and they are during the Estimates process. Right now, the then required to pay. Deputy Minister of Health is in the midst of discussions with the Faculty of Medicine and So I would like to ask the minister if he with the university about that issue in terms of could get this information and get it back to me the timing of expansion of enrollment in the in writing, because I know we are a bit short of Faculty of Medicine. time here, but whether there are reciprocal agreements between Manitoba and Saskat­ Again, as I said to the member during chewan, where those people who have to be Estimates, our view is no later than the next transferred from one Saskatchewan hospital to academic year, in the year 2000, but we also another by medivac, by air ambulance, whether believe there may well be an opportunity to their costs are covered as they are in Manitoba. enhance enrollment in the upcoming academic year starting this September. So that is stiii the The second question that I would like to ask direction that the Deputy Minister of Health is the minister, if he could provide me in writing, is July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4309 whether there have been any reductions in Hon. Harol d Gilleshammer (Acting Govern­ services or changes in agreements that we have ment House Leader): Madam Speaker, I move, with other provinces. We all know that there are seconded by the Minister of Health (Mr. waiting lists in our hospitals for hip replace­ Stefanson), that this House concur in the report ments and many types of surgeries. So Swan of the Committee of Supply respecting River people are sent to Saskatchewan, but we concurrence and all Supply resolutions relating find that there is a reduction, that they are being to the Estimates of Expenditure fo r the fiscal held very long on waiting lists in Saskatchewan­ year ending March 31,2000. whether there are any changes in the agreement that Manitoba has with Saskatchewan in Motion agreed to. providing services to people who live in border communities. Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I would move, seconded by the honourable Minister of I realize the minister may not have that, but Agriculture (Mr. Enns), that Madam Speaker do if he could provide that in writing for me, that now leave the Chair and that the House resolve would be very helpful. itself into a committee to consider of Ways and Means for raising of the Supply to be granted to Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Chairman, I will undertake Her Most Gracious Majesty. to do that, to respond to both of those issues in writing, and I do not see that taking a long time Motion agreed to. to do that. * (1740) The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Sveinson): COMMITTEE OF WAY S AND MEANS Shall the motion pass? Capital Supply Some Honourable Members: Pass. The Acting Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Order, please. The Committee of Ways and The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Sveinson): The Means will come to order. We have before us motion is accordingly passed. fo r consideration the resolution respecting Capital Supply. The resolution for Capital Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. Supply reads as follows:

IN SESSION RESOLVED that towards making good certain sums of money fo r Capital purposes, the Madam Speaker: First of all, let me establish, sum of $1,106,900,000 be granted out of the is there unanimous consent of the House fo r the Consolidated Fund. Speaker not to see the clock at 6 p.m.? [agreed] Shall the resolution pass? Committee Report Some Honourabl e Members: Pass. Mr. Ben Sveinson (A cting Chairperson): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has The Acting Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): The adopted a motion regarding concurrence in resolution is accordingly passed. Supply, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. Main Supply

I move, seconded by the honourable The Acting Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): We member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Faurschou), also have before us for our consideration the that the report of the committee be received. resolutions respecting the Main Supply bill. The first resolution for the Main Supply reads as Motion agreed to. fo llows: 43 10 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999

RESOLVED that towards making good INTRODU CTION OF BILLS certain sums of money granted to Her Majesty fo r the public service of the province fo r the Bi11 46--Th e Appropriation Act, 1999 fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 2000, the sum of $5,550, 138,900 as set fo rth in Hon. Harold Gillesh ammer (Minister of Schedule A be granted out of the Consolidated Finance): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded Fund. by the Minister of Health (Mr. Stefanson), that leave be given to introduce Bill 46, The Appropriation Act, 1999 (Loi de 1999 portant Shall the resolution pass? affectation de credits). and that the same be now received, read a first time and be ordered for Some Honourable Members: Pass. second reading immediately.

Motion agreed to. Th e Acting Ch airperson (Ben Sveinson): The resolution is accordingly passed. SE COND READINGS The second resolution fo r Main Supply Bill 46--Th e Appropriation Act, 1999 reads as fo llows: Hon. Harold Gillesh ammer (Minister of RESOLVED that towards making good Finance): I move, seconded by the Minister of certain sums of money granted to Her Majesty Health (Mr. Stefanson), that Bill 46, The fo r the public service of the province fo r the Appropriation Act. 1999 (Loi de 1999 portant fiscal year ending 31st day of March, 2000, the affectation de credits). be now read a second sum of $1 1 3,256,800 as set out in Schedule B time and be referred to a committee of this (Capital Investments) be granted out of the House. Consolidated Fund. Motion ag reed to.

Shall the resolution pass? IN TR ODUCTION OF BILLS

Some Honourable Members: Pass. Bi11 45-Th e Loan Act, 1999 Hon. Harold Gillesh ammer (Minister of Th e Acting Ch airperson (Ben Sveinson): The Finance): Madam Speaker. I move. seconded resolution is accordingly passed. by the Minister of Health (Mr. Stefanson), that leave be given to introduce Bill 45. The Loan Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. Act, 1999 (Loi d'emprunt de 1999), and that the same be now received, read a first time and be IN SE SSION ordered fo r second reading immediately.

Committee Report Motion agreed to.

Mr. Ben Sveinson (Acting Ch airperson): SE COND READINGS Madam Speaker, the Committee of Ways and Means has adopted a resolution regarding Bill 45-Th e Loan Act, 1999 Capital Supply and two resolutions regarding Hon. Harold Gi llesh ammer (Minister of Main Supply, directs me to report the same and Finance): By leave, I move, seconded by the asks leave to sit again. Minister of Health (Mr. Stefanson), that Bill 45, The Loan Act, 1999 (Loi d'emprunt de 1999), be I move, seconded by the honourable now read a second time and be referred to a member fo r Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Faurschou), committee of this House. that the report of the committee be received.

Motion agreed to. Motion agreed to. July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4311

Hon. Darren Praz nik(Government House Mr. Chairperson: All those opposed, please Leader) : Madam Speaker, I would move, say nay. seconded by the honourable Minister of An Honourable Member: Nay. Agriculture (Mr. Enns), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself Mr. Chairperson: In my opinion, the yeas into the Committee of the Whole to consider and really have it. The clause is accordingly passed. report of Bill 45, The Loan Act, 1999; Loi d'emprunt de 1999, and Bill 46, The Appropriation Act, 1999; Loi de 1999 portant Schedule B-pass; preamble-pass; title-pass. affectation de credits, fo r third reading. Bill be reported.

Mot ion ag reed to. Committee rise. Call in the Speaker.

* (1750) IN SESSI ON

COMMITTEE OF THE WH OLE Committee Report

Mr. Chairperson (Marc el Laurendeau) : The Mr. Marc el Laurendeau (Chairperson): Committee of the Whole will come to order to Madam Speaker, the Committee of the Whole consider Bill 45, The Loan Act, 1999; and Bill has considered Bill 45, The Loan Act, 1999, and 46, The Appropriation Act, 1999. The Appropriation Act, 1999, and has directed me to report the same and asks leave to sit again.

Bill 45--The Loan Act, 1999 I move, seconded by the honourable member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson), that Mr. Chairperson: We shall proceed to the report of the Committee of the Whole be consider Bill 45 clause by clause. Is it the wish received. of the committee that I proceed in blocks of clauses? [agreed] Mot ion ag reed to. Clause 1-pass; Clause 2-pass; Clauses 3(1) REPORT STA GE through 4(3) inclusive-pass; Clauses 5(1) through Clause 8-pass; Schedule A-pass; Bill 45--The Loan Act, 1999 Schedule B-pass; preamble-pass; title-pass. Bill be reported. Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minist er of Financ e) : Madam Speaker, by leave, I move, Bill 46-TheAppropr iat ion Act, 1999 seconded by the Minister of Health (Mr. Stefanson), that Bill 45, The Loan Act, 1999 Mr. Chairperson: We shall now proceed to (Loi d'emprunt de 1999), reported from the consider Bill 46 clause by clause. Shall we do it Committee of the Whole, be concurred in. in blocks? [agreed]

Mot ion ag reed to. Clause 1-pass; Clauses 2 through 7-pass. Shall Schedule A be passed? Madam Speaker: Did the honourable minister have leave? [agreed] An Honourable Member: No. Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I would move, Voic e Vote seconded again by the honourable Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), that Bill 45, The Loan Mr. Chairperson: All those in favour of Act, 1999; Loi d'emprunt de 1999, reported from Schedule A, please say yea. the Committee of the Whole, be concurred in.

Some Honourable Members: Yea. Mot ion ag reed to. 43 12 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999

Biii 46-TheAppropriati o n Act, 1999 Hon. Darren Praz nik (Gov ernment House Leader): Madam Speaker, I believe I was in the Hon. Harold Gi ll eshammer (M ini ster of process of moving that motion when the table Fi nance): Madam Speaker, by leave, I move, officers advised that I needed to be moving 46. seconded by the Minister of Health (Mr. So I do regret that, and I was in the process of Stefanson), that Bill 46. The Appropriation Act, moving that. 1999 (Loi de 1999 portant affectation de credits), reported fr om the Committee of the Madam Sp eaker: Okay, just fo r clarification, I Whole, be concurred in. believe the honourable government House leader was directed to be asking fo r leave before Madam Speaker: Does the honourable moving the motion. minister have leave? [agreed] Bill 45-The Loan Act, 1999 Motion agreed to. Mr. Darren Praznik (Government House THIRD READINGS Leader): Madam Speaker. to do what I started to do, with leave. I would move, seconded by the Bi11 46-TheApp rop riatio n Act, 1999 Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), that Bill 45, The Loan Act. 1999; Loi d'emprunt de 1999, be Hon. Darren Praz nik (Government House now read a third time and passed. Leader): Madam Speaker, with leave, I would * (1800) move, seconded by the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), that Bill 46, The Appropriation Act Madam Sp eaker: Does the honourable govern­ 1999; Loi de 1999 portant affectation de credits, ment House leader have leave? [agreed] be now read a third time and passed. Motion ag reed to.

Madam Speaker: Does the honourable govern­ Bi11 46-Th e Ap propriat ion Act, 1999 ment House leader have leave? [agreed] Madam Sp eaker: Is the House ready fo r the Motio n presented. question? The question before the House is third reading. Bill 46. Is it the will of the House to Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam adopt the motion? Speaker, upon sitting down I understand that in fact we will be going or putting fo rward the Some Ho nourab le Memb ers: Agreed. question on its passage. My intention is to actually call for a recorded vote just so that you An Ho no urabl e Memb er: No. are aware of it. Suffice to say, we in the Liberal Party do believe that there is an alternative Madam Sp eaker: All those in fa vour, please budget that should-the government does not say yea. have the confidence that the official opposition has given it in its budget presentation, and we So me Ho nourab le Memb ers: Yea. suggest that it is not good enough fo r Manitobans. Thank you. Madam Sp eaker: All those opposed, please say nay. Madam Speaker: Order, please. No one is An Honourab le Memb er: Nay. infallible, and I hope all members will under­ stand. I would like to revert back. I have been Madam Speaker: In my opinion, the Yeas have informed by the ta ble officers that the it. appropriate motion for third reading of Bill 45 was not put to the House nor voted on. So I Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Yes, Madam would ask the honourable government House Speaker, I believe if you canvass the House that leader to re-move third reading of Bill 45. there is support for a recorded vote. July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4313

Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member Bill 40-The Employment and Inco me for Inkster have support to request a recorded Assistance Amendment Act vote? Ho n. Dar ren Praznik (Go vernment Ho use Ho n. Darren Praz nik (Go vernmen t Ho use Leader): Madam Speaker, I would move, Leader): Madam Speaker, in the interests of seconded by the honourable Minister of Family supporting the member having a recorded vote, Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), that Bill 40, The this side of the House will lend support to his Employment and Income Assistance Amend­ call. ment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur !'aide a l'emploi et au revenu, be now read a third time Madam Speaker : The honourable member for and passed. Inkster indeed has support. A recorded vote has been requested. Call in the members. Madam Speaker : Does the honourable govern­ ment House leader have leave? [agreed] *(1810) Mo tion presented. Order, please. The question before the House is third reading Bill 46, The Appro­ priation Act, 1999. Ho n. Vic To ews (Minister of Justice and Atto r ney Gener al): Madam Speaker, I appreci­ Divisio n ate this opportunity to put a fe w comments on the record. I know that many of my colleagues, A RECORDED VOTE was taken, the result indeed members of the opposition, want to put a being as follows: fe w comments on the record.

Yeas I had the opportunity to participate in the debate in committee, and it was interesting to see Ashton, Barrett, Cerilli, Chomiak, Cummings, the various positions come out or indeed not Derkach, Dewar, Doer, Downey, Driedger come out from the members of the opposition. (Charleswood), Driedger (S teinbach), Evans Indeed, they are quite reluctant to say anything (I nterlake), Enns, Faurschou, Filmon, Findlay, about where they stand on this bill, especially in Gilleshammer, Helwer, Hickes, Jennissen, view of the fact that in the past they have taken Laurendeau, Mackintosh, Maloway, Martindale, very definiteand hard stands against workfare. McAlpine, McCrae, McGif.ford, Mcintosh, Mihychuk, Mitchelson, Newman, Pitura, Praznik, Radcliffe, Reimer, Render, Reid, What I thought I would do, Madam Speaker, Robinson, Sale, Santos, Stefanson, Struthers, is just briefly talk to the preambles in the bill. Sveinson, To ews. Tweed, Vodrey, Wowchuk. The preamble as amended in committee has a number of goals that are important, I think, to Nay s Manitobans, and they are values that Manitobans can share. The first paragraph of the preamble Lamoureux. speaks of a balance; it speaks of a balance between obtaining assistance fo r those who are in need and yet at the same time promoting Mr . Cler k (William Remnant): Yeas 47; Nays personal responsibility. 1.

Madam Speaker : The motion is accordingly The second preamble indicates that we need carried. to encourage people to become self-sufficient wherever possible. While social assistance is a Mr . Praznik: Madam Speaker, I believe there necessary, an important social good in our is only one bill remaining for business to be community, we must not put forward a program completed, that being Bill 40, and I would ask if that discourages people from becoming self­ you could please call that bill for third reading. sufficient, because we know that no matter how 4314 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999 good a program of social assistance it is, it will stimulate by an artificial infusion of taxpayers' never do fo r people what they can do for money which create jobs fo r short periods of themselves if they have the capacity to do so. So time. indeed, only as long as that taxpayer I think it is very important that that principle be money keeps on going. set out in the preamble. So, Madam Speaker, those are principles I The other preamble that was included by think every Manitoban supports. I want to stress amendment, Madam Speaker, speaks about the then the distinction between the bill brought improvement of the economic circumstances of fo rward by this government and the position of Manitoba fa milies. While social assistance the NDP. Now we do not know whether it is the provides families with the basic necessities, new NDP, the old NDP or tomorrow's NDP. again, as I have indicated, that is very important, What we do know is that they have been what this act seeks to do, seeks to implement in consistent in their policy in that respect. So I law, the policy that welfare to work improve the think it is very important to just refresh economic circumstances of Manitoba families, members' memory, and I refer to the private that Manitobans be encouraged to work in order member's resolution that was brought fo rward by to improve their economic circumstances. the member fo r Burrows (Mr. Martindale). It was on the Order Paper, and I am referring to The last preamble, Madam Speaker, or the that Order Paper of March 5, 1997. I do not last paragraph of the preamble speaks about intend to deal with the entire resolution, but what community commitment, the fact that all of us the member fo r Burrows made very clear is his are a part of a larger community. We all party's utter disdain fo r the concept of work, that contribute to the community, and just because they simply do not see a benefit to work in and you are poor does not mean you do not have a of itself. Let me support my statement by meaningfu l contribution to make. There are reading directly from the resolution, and I quote, many ways that wealthy people can contribute to it states: WHEREAS workfare is a coercive and our communities, and there are many ways that oppressive system which robs social assistance those who are economically disadvantaged can recipients of their dignity. contribute to our communities. This bill seeks then to ensure that those who are less fo rtunate So that is their position of workfare, or economically be given an opportunity to make a should I say, at least the member fo r Burrows. meaningful contribution to the community. whether it is through a job, a nine-to-five job. An Honourable Member: He took it as the paid job or through community programming caucus position to their annual meeting. where they assist their fe llow citizens in the greater good in building that community. Mr. Toews: I know one of my colleagues has indicated that it is a caucus position. There is a * (1820) caucus position on that, and I will get to that as well. This is the private member's resolution. I want to stress as well, Madam Speaker, Well, I am assuming that his caucus did support that this bill is not to include the disabled. This him on this, but I do not have that fr om the face bill deals with able-bodied people who are on of the record. What we know at this point, social assistance, and I think it is very important Madam Speaker, is that the member for Burrows to see in that context. I know that many of my in fact does view workfare in that capacity. colleagues will be speaking about the many economic opportunities that we have in What he then asked this Legislature to do, Manitoba today as a result of the very concerted what he asked them to do is that the Legislative efforts of this governmentto bring in progressive Assembly of Manitoba, and I am quoting: urge economic policies, not simply to rely on tax the provincial government to consider refusing dollars to create opportunities, but indeed, create to implement or participate in any employment a new economy that brings growth out of that programs which fo rce social assistance new economy, not the artificial growth that we recipients to accept employment which they have seen past NDP governments try to have not fr eely chosen or which force social July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 43 15 assistance recipients to involuntarily participate So I find it somewhat confusing that in in work programs as a condition of eligibility for committee yesterday the same member, the their welfare allowances. member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale), brings fo rward a number of amendments, and I think So clearly, their position, or should I say the my colleague from La Verendrye expressed it member fo r Burrows made it very clear on the best in suggesting that these were simply legal record that no one under any circumstances techniques trying to provide every opportunity should not be compelled to perform work. for people to avoid working and yet receive Indeed, the only work that a person should have social assistance. The attempt of those amend­ to do is the work that they want to do; otherwise, ments was to create a legal smoke screen in he says: the state owes that person a living. order to destroy the integrity of the bill. And what then do we make of the amendment that he Madam Speaker, I disagree with that moved in respect of the preamble, and he position. I do not think that is a responsible suggested the preamble include the fo llowing position, and I certainly do not think that is an paragraph, and I quote: and WHEREAS it is an appropriate view of the nature of work and the underlying principle of welfare-to-work initia­ benefitof work for individuals. tives that it is a social obligation of all employ­ able persons to work. Now, members in the House might suggest that the resolution was simply the work of one Now, what could that possibly mean, given rogue member of that caucus. Well, the same what the same member has said on two separate sentiments are reflected in a caucus report to the formal occasions, No. 1, that workfare is 34th constitutional convention of the Manitoba coercive and oppressive, that no one should be New Democratic Party, and that was in forced to work in order to receive social November of 1997. This was brought fo rward assistance benefits, and then in the report that he by the same member, the member fo r Burrows brought forward on behalf of the entire caucus, (Mr. Martindale), but this time on behalf of the saying that everyone has the right not to have to caucus. What the resolution, or the report to the participate in work or training programs or constitutional convention of the New workfare. Democratic Party, states is that the resolution encourage the provincial government to * (1830) introduce legislation guaranteeing the rights of social assistance recipients, including the right to So then the question that comes to mind is, a level of assistance adequate to meet one's how can there be coming out of the mouth of the needs, the right to appeal decisions which limit same member the concept somehow that work is or deny assistance and the right not to have to a social obligation of all employable persons. participate in work or training programs, and in What is he saying? order that there was no confusion about what was meant, fo llowing the phrase "training Again, I can only go back to what the programs," it goes on, i.e., that is, workfare, in member for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson) has order to receive assistance, a clear denunciation said. This is some kind of legal smoke screen of the concept of work, that people have the that he is developing or, indeed, a political right to refuse work whatever the work is, and smoke screen to disguise the true beliefs of what then that the state has a responsibility to pay a that party stands for. They have said it over and living allowance to those who choose not to over again. Suddenly, a fe w months before an work. election, they come out with a statement stating that somehow, yes, now it is a social obligation. Clearly this does not deal with disabled Even assuming there is a measure of bona fides people, because I think all of us agree that in that resolution or that proposed amendment, certain people in our society may not be able to what I think is clear, the member again is trying work, and the Minister for Family Services (Mrs. to destroy, in one way or another, the principles Mitchelson) has indicated that will be the behind the act, the principles that have been discussion of a separate program. summarized in the preamble, trying to destroy 43 16 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999 the balance between receiving social assistance criticized the economic policies, criticized the where it is needed and personal responsibility, budgetary policies, and, now, fo ur years later, destroying the principle that we should strive, his masters who sent him out into the streets to wherever possible, to be self-sufficient, because say all these things are changing the rules. They it is through self-sufficiency in an economic have new rules. Now, all of a sudden, they sense that economic wealth comes from. Wealth believe in balanced budgets; now they believe in is not created by governments. Wealth is created freer trade; now they profess to believe in by individuals either working by themselves or economic responsibility, and, indeed, Madam with others in order to stimulate activity. Speaker, now they even profess to believe that workfare is indeed what they term a social It destroys, Madam Speaker, the preamble obligation. that we should seek to improve the economic circumstances of Manitoba families, because Well, Madam Speaker, we know what they what social assistance does, and what a reliance have said on other occasions in direct contra­ on social assistance, and a right, an absolute diction to what they are saying today. This is a right to social assistance does is, of course, that party, and I am speaking of the NDP, who it destroys economic independence, economic change their principles fo r political expediency. strength, and the betterment of Manitoba I can look at the principles and the preamble of families. this act and say it is consistent with the party that I ran fo r in 1995. It is consistent with the party Of course, what does this amendment seek that I run fo r in the next election. It is consistent to do? It seeks to destroy the community that with what the Progressive Conservative Party of needs the individual efforts in order to succeed. Manitoba has stood fo r over the last 20 or 25 or A community's strength is dependent on the 30 years. My political memory does not go efforts and the strengths of the individuals who much beyond that, but I dare say those principles are in it. In no way does this amendment will find themselves reflected in many of the brought fo rward by the member in fact recognize speeches and many of the concepts of John those very important principles, but, in a sly Diefenbaker, and Duff Roblin I know would way, attempts to destroy those principles, have believed in these principles. I assume he attempts to set up a legal smoke screen and, still does. This is a party that has been indeed, attempts to create a political smoke absolutely consistent in its principles. screen which is not acceptable. Madam Speaker, I know that from time to So, Madam Speaker, those are the thoughts time mistakes are made along the way. That is that crossed my mind while I was sitting in the wonderfu l thing about the democratic committee. The apparent and, indeed, obvious process. The voter is always there to check contradiction between what the New Democrats governments and parties and individuals who say in certain situations and in situations when make mistakes, but I know that if I proceed in they perceive that there might be a political the future on the basis of principles like these, I advantage to doing so. know I can do my work in the best interests of the people of Manitoba. What can the NDP say? I know, in my constituency, back in 1995, There are no principles; there are no standards. the New Democrat who ran against me opposed They cannot point back to a history of longer balanced budgets. He told the constituents of than Jess than two years-less than two years. Rossmere that balanced budgets were not a good Where are their principles? Where is their thing, that they would not work, that it was integrity? I think the people of Manitoba will destructive of the economy. The same individual look very harshly at what they are attempting to told members of my constituency that the trade do by their sly legal and political maneuvering. policies, which were bringing thousands of jobs to my constituency, and indeed have brought Madam Speaker, I am proud to support this thousands of jobs to my constituency, every­ bill, and I know members on this side of the where you look, new jobs, and this member, as House are as well, and I commend this bill to the he was then, criticized the trade policies, House. July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4317

Mr. Doug Martindal e (Burrows): Madam minister spent over $5,000, I think it was Speaker, this bill was cobbled together in one $5,400, to treat civil servants and elected people day in the Premier's (Mr. Filmon) office with no at Le Beaujolais Restaurant. We remember that consultation, at least not any public consultation. well. You know, frequently when the government wants to bring in legislation, they have a task This is a government where under whose fo rce or they have a review committee or they watch and under this minister's watch where have public hearings or they have travelling there are 12,000 more people on welfare in 1998 hearings, and then they draft legislation based on than there were in 1988 when this government what they have heard. Then they introduce a took office. As I said before, getting people off bill; they send it to committee where the public of welfare was identified as a critical weakness gets to comment a second time, and then they for the Tories in a recent Angus Reid poll. The draft regulations. public wants assurances that any new measures will not be costly fai lures like in New Brunswick where workfare cost $177 million, got fe w But this bill is diffe rent because this bill people off of welfare and had to be abandoned. probably resulted out of a focus group, a fo cus Given that the Making Welfare Work budget has group which reinforced the Angus Reid poll been cut in half, including Taking Charge!, it is which said that moving people fr om welfare to clear this government has no plan. There is no work was a critical weakness of this govern­ new money in this budget to implement this. ment, a poll that came out in January 1999. The government does not really want to come After the fo cus group then there were TV ads, clean on Taking Charge!. I still do not have the and then they hastily got some people together in report of the evaluation of Taking Charge!, and I the Premier's office to do the first draft of this requested it a long time ago. bill. Then it was sent off to the Department of Family Services, and then Bill 40 was We believe that all employable citizens have introduced about six weeks fr om the time of a a social obligation to work, but the Tories voted provincial election call at the end of the session, down our amendment on this principle. We at the end of 11 years of a tired old government believe in welfare to work programs that truly who has run out of steam, run out of ideas, and work. Our amendments called fo r accessible are desperate to get re-elected even it is on the community-based resources to ensure that wel­ backs ofthe poor. fare recipients can move from welfare to long­ term employment. The Tories voted down these * (1840) amendments. Now we see in the contents of the bill that Bill 40 has come in at the end of an 11-year this Conservative government wants people to electoral term and after a series of election ads, trust them with the details in the regulation. voting down our amendments that would Well, why should we trust this government? actually make the bill work, made it obvious the This is the government that is part of a political Tories are only interested in pre-election party that would do anything to get elected. We posturing. They are willing to sacrifice vul­ saw that in the vote-splitting scandal in 1995. nerable people in a desperate attempt to move up We saw it with the promise to keep the Jets in in the polls. Although the deaf community is Winnipeg, which now some people are considered employable, the minister has said that regretting they supported according to a column she will not even consult with them until the fall. in the Free Press today. Without community-based resources to move people into training, treatment and parenting programs, the deaf community would not be able In 1995, this Minister of Family Services to fu lfillthe obligations in this bill. It is another (Mrs. Mitchelson) said that welfare rates for example that the bill is only an election ploy. food allowances fo r children will drop when the province takes over the city's welfare rolls, Now we have just heard the Minister of which they did. This was fo llowing a conference Justice (Mr. Toews) trying to do some damage of ministers of Family Services where this control on this issue. The Minister of Justice 43 18 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999

said that deaf people are categorized as disabled. Poi nt of Order Well, the truth is that many, many deaf people are on social assistance, and we are told from Mr. Gerry McAl pi ne (Sturg eon Creek): people who work in the minister's department Madam Speaker, the honourable member fo r that the majority of them are deemed employ­ Burrows is quite fam iliar with the bill, and he able. In fact, their caseload is carried at the makes reference to the disabled people of this Rorie Street office and the Main Street office, community. It is a real shame that he is using depending on whether they are employable or the disabled community to benefit his own going to be subject to the kinds of encourage­ arguments as far as not supporting this bill. That ment that people who are considered employable is very unfair, and I would ask you to call him to get from this department or people who are order and to address the two facts of the bill. deemed employable but have barriers to employ­ ment, which is I believe the caseload at the Main Ma da m Spea ker: Order, please. The honour­ Street office. able member fo r Sturgeon Creek does not have a point of order. It is a clearly dispute over the This minister said she is going to consult facts. with them. In fact, I was just reading today, the Manitoba League of Persons with Disabilities * * * update newsletter of Summer '99 and it says: "Consultations to be held with disabled Mr. Ma rt inda le: Thank you, Madam Speaker. community to improve income assistance Had the member fo r Sturgeon Creek (Mr. program"-Mitchelson. And there is a quote McAlpine) been listening to me, he would have here. "To determine which route is best, our heard me say that I was quoting from the government will first consult with all segments presentation of Theresa Swedick in the of the disabled community and their fam ilies committee, which is a matter of record. It is in about the merits and possible design fe atures of Hansard; we have a copy of her brief; this is any new initiatives." what she was telling people in a very public fo rum, a committee stage of this bill. So we know that the government has this vague kind of plan about what they are going to In the presentation from the Manitoba do with the disabled category, but they did not League of Persons with Disabilities Inc., David consult the disabled category about this bill and Martin, their executive director, stated: "Since whether or not this bill would apply to them or the government has decided to move in this not. So we heard in committee from many direction, ...our members have questions about disabled people, people with various kinds of its implementation as it affects people with disabilities, all of them said that they want to disabilities. We fe ar that some people with work and all of them opposed to this bill said: in disabilities may be affected by the measures order to get into the paid workforce, we need forcing people to work, to attend addiction some helps and supports from this government. programs, or to participate in educational classes because there is no clear definition of disability." An Honoura ble Member: We need some Mr. Martin also stated: "Threatening people with interpreters. a life on a street and starvation seems untenable in a society like Canada." Mr. Ma rtindale: Interpreters would be one of those. I know that the member fo r Osborne (Ms. If the Tories were serious about moving McGifford) is going to talk about that in more people into long-term employment, they would detail. In her presentation, Theresa Swedick have consulted with the deaf and disabled stated: "Are you aware that the Prov. Welfare communities first. The Manitoba League of doesn't consider deaf as disabled? So where Persons with Disabilities presented a paper does this system fit the Deaf community? We called Employment Solutions calling for acces­ want jobs not workfare. We didn't ask to be sible resources such as transportation. If the born or to become deaf for you to fo rce us to government were serious, they would have built become slaves." community resources into the bills recom- July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4319 mended by Theresa Swedick and the league for by a recognized agency-I think our amendment disabilities. actually said the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba or another recognized agency, because Many of these suggestions were incor­ we thought it was only fair that if people have an porated in our amendments. I would like to read addiction problem, it should be assessed by a into the record our amendments beginning with professional person rather than by somebody the preamble, where I moved: "AND WHERE­ who works for the welfare bureaucracy. How AS Manitoba has one of the highest rates of did the governmentvote on this? They defeated child poverty in Canada, it is a related goal of the amendment. welfare-to-work initiatives to reduce the rate of child poverty in Manitoba." * (1850)

What did the Tory government do? They You know, one of the more interesting voted against it. Another AND WHEREAS things that the government probably will not say continues to say that it is a related goal of in their speeches is that we supported the welfare-to-work initiatives, "that it is a social obligation sections of the bill. What we were obligation of all employable persons to work." trying to do is improve the bill with our amend­ ments, and they voted down all our amendments. That wording was taken from a presentation We also moved an amendment, I think three by the Social Planning Council of Winnipeg. diffe rent times. We used identical language. We What did the Tories do? They defeated that said that people should have community-based amendment. access without cost to him or her. We did some research on this, because if people are going to Then we moved an amendment saying: have to get treatment or a parenting program or "The Workplace Safety and Health Act applies whatever it is, it should be community-based and in relation to an applicant, recipient or dependent it should be accessible. Well, is a program who is required to undertake a community accessible if it has a 15-month waiting list or a service activity under the regulations as provided two-year waiting list? No, it is not. For example, fo r in clause (1 )(b)." the Laurel Centre has a 15-month waiting list. Did the government support this amendment? The minister said they are already covered. No. We moved this amendment; they voted against it. Even though she said it applies, they still We also moved an amendment saying that voted against it. the government should provide for a student social assistance program and cover their Then we moved an amendment saying that expenses in relation to education or training. people who are required "to undertake a Well, why did we introduce this amendment? community service activity if, in doing so, he or We introduced this amendment because a she would replace or displace a paid worker," number of years ago, the government eliminated that this would be prohibited. the student social assistance program. In fact, I wish I had it with me, but there was a Free Press Does this governmentwant to lay off people editorial. I think it had a picture of the Premier who are working and paid and replace them with (Mr. Filmon) in it, and it called their bill the volunteers? Then the paid people would be on kicking-students-out-of-school bill. I think that the welfare and the people on welfare would be was one of the last bills that we debated in that in work. I do not really understand the logic of session of the Legislature on the last night. that, but we suggested that did not make sense. What did they do? They kicked students out of How did the government vote on this school and put them on welfare. Now that they amendment? The government defeated it; they are on welfare, they want to force them to go to voted no. school. Well, how are they going to do that if they cannot afford-[interjection] Yes, I think Then we moved an amendment saying that that is a flip-flop. I agree with the member for people with an addiction problem, as determined Transcona (Mr. Reid). So we suggested that 4320 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999 students be allowed to go to school, and the I am going to be rather brief because I want governmentvoted against our amendment. a number of my colleagues to speak, and I know a number of government members want to speak. We said that there should be available education or training, convenient or community­ In summary, Madam Speaker, we know that based access to education and training without this was a politically motivated bill, that this bill cost. Did the governmentsupport this? No, they arises out of the sheer desperation of this voted against it. This is the government that government to get re-elected. We know that when it came to the Access program, they cut it they have cut programs that help people to get from a peak of $12 million in 1989-90, the first off welfare and into work, but if you look at the year of the Tory government, to just $6.4 million number of their welfare-to-work programs this year. What about the BUNTEP program? currently, they have the numbers in their Brandon University Northern Teacher Education Estimates book, 887 positions, 17,300 employ­ Program and the Northern Bachelor of Nursing able people on their welfare rolls, welfare rolls Program have also been cut. I am quoting here that have increased by 12,000 people between from Frances Russell, July 7, 1999, but these 1988 and 1999. examples we have put on the record many, many times over the last 10 or 11 years. New Careers, the most successful training program in the So, Madam Speaker, I am going to wrap up country, with a 93 percent job success rate, because I want as many of my colleagues to terminated by this government. speak as time permits, and we are looking forward to this debate and watching this govern­ ment do damage control and put their spin on In 1993, the Conservatives ended annual this legislation which we know that they will be funding of Manitoba's 11 Indian and Metis doing through TV ads, because they want to friendship centres. In June 1994, payments for fight an election on the backs of the poor, which fo ster parents who care for relatives were halved is something that we on this side refuse to do. from $20 to $10 per day. This reduction has impacted most severely aboriginal families and Thank you, Madam Speaker. northerners, since 80 percent of aboriginal fo ster care placements occur within extended families. Hon. Linda Mci ntosh (Minister of In 1993, the province cut funding fo r the Environment): Madam Speaker, I very much Northern Fishermen's Freight Assistance. In appreciate the opportunity to put comments on 1991, the Keewatin Community College, which the record regarding this bill. I would invite all primarily services the North, saw its funding those who may be reading the Hansard from this reduced by $11 million-$11 million. We believe debate to, before they read any further, in welfare to work that works. They believe in immediately obtain a Hansard fo r Tuesday, July cutting funding to education which is an 13, and read the committee minutes on the Law investment in people, which helps them get off Amendments committee on Bill 40, The welfare and into work. In 1996, the Tories cut Employment and Income Assistance Amend­ welfare rates by 21 percent for single adults. For ment Act, to find out why the lengthy list of the last nine years, highway spending in the amendments that the member just quoted was North has averaged only 4 to 6 percent of total defeated. budget, compared to between 13 and 22 percent in the 1980s. As Frances Russell said, these decisions are not a hand-up, they are a kick­ I do not want to rehash the committee down. In fact, Theresa Swedick had a version of meeting here, as the member before me just did, this. She said this is not a hand-up. This is a because I do not think that is what we are here to kick in the teeth, I believe, she said. I think she do, Madam Speaker. I think we are here to got it right. So here we had amendments. The debate a very important bill, and it is disap­ government did not support any of them, voted pointing to think that the lead critic for the them all down, and then expect us to support the opposition would spend his entire time rehashing bill. the amendments that they put forward in July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4321 committee yesterday without indicating why member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) phrased they were turned down. it--cobbled, he says, cobbled together. That, to me, negates the work that has gone on for the Just for one quick example and into the meat last three years in terms of moving people from of my speech because I intend to speak to the welfare to meaningful work to full-time substance of the bill, as I wish that the member employment. As well, the member for for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) had done as well, Wellington (Ms. Barrett) and one of the other one of those amendments to have the Workplace members, I am not sure which one from the Safety and Health apply to this bill was defeated other side, were also shouting out: this is just a because it was redundant because it already does vote-getting bill. apply to this type of activity. Mr. Deputy Speaker, we have never said it is So I encourage people, please, if you are a vote-getting bill. The ones who are afraid it is reading this Hansard, go get the Hansard for going to get us votes are the members of the Tuesday, July 13, and read the committee opposition, and I do not understand why they minutes to find out the real story behind the would be preoccupied with whether a bill is amendments the member has just put on the going to get votes or lose votes. It seems to me record as if there was some other reason for they should be preoccupied with whether or not them being turneddown than the real one. the bill is a good bill.

Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Deputy Speaker, in the * (1900) Chair We have noticed and we still are unsure as I also want to indicate, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to how the vote is going to go on this. We have that I am puzzled by two things, puzzled by the noticed that the New Democrats who fa ct that the member fo r Kildonan (Mr. traditionally oppose anything to do with having Chomiak), during the Minister of Justice's (Mr. people work fo r their-[interjection] I am trying Toews) speech, said fo ur times this is a wedge not to listen to the heckling, Mr. Deputy issue. I do not understand why the opposition Speaker, but it is very difficult. If you had are so obsessed with saying that. I believe it is a earplugs, I could maybe carry on, but they are wedge issue, as a matter of fact, but they seem to very, very rude and they are very, very noisy and be obsessed with it and terrified by a wedge they are very threatened by everything I am issue. about to say here. I suspect that is why they are trying to shout down the speaker; they are trying A wedge issue simply identifies a difference to shout down the person speaking because they between one side and the other, and in a do not want the words to be heard. They hope democracy that is fair game. Always, always, we they can throw the speaker off track in order to have had diffe rences in philosophies, differences avoid this issue being talked about. in ideology, differences in approach to life between one side of the House and the other, I do not know why they would be afraid to between the government and the official hold true to their principles. Yesterday some of opposition. Mr. Deputy Speaker, we know that the members of the New Democrats were freely with this particular issue, that the opposition has admitting that fo r public perception they would constantly referred to it as a wedge issue with vote for this bill. I see in the paper today their some trepidation and fear in their voice. This I Leader says they will not vote for this bill. The do not understand. What is wrong with having member fo r Burrows has twice said that an honest diffe rence of opinion, an honestly workfare is akin to evil, but I will be interested differently held belief in the way the world to see if he holds for it or not. I was disappointed should be ordered? that I did not hear anything about the substance of the bill from the member for Burrows. All I I am also intrigued by the fact that this heard was dancing around the topic and talking particular bill is referred to often by the about the amendments. I would like to now talk opposition as a bill that was-I fo rget how the about the bill, and I hope other members of the 4322 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999 opposition, should they rise to speak, would also stomach, and yet when fo rced to face it have address the bill and not dance around the topic. I fo und the strength to overcome and then the joy would also hope that they would have the in knowing that the achievement has taken place. courtesy to stop being so blessed rude as they are, especially the member fo r Thompson (Mr. I have two fr iends who have sons, and they Ashton), who is incredibly rude right now. I am are only a year apart in age. My one fr iend had sure you can hear his screaming. He is actually the great sorrow of having her beautiful boy screaming, Mr. Deputy Speaker. He is actually become diagnosed as schizophrenic some years screaming and that is so appalling. It is so ago. One of her biggest and most sorrowful appalling. They are asking me to go back and- realizations as he became hospitalized and very ill was she was afraid that never would he be Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Could I able to have the ability to be self-sufficient and ask honourable members to wait until such time independent, that never would he be able, like as they are recognized to put their voices and the other children in her fam ily, to get a job and their notes on the record. I am a very patient be able to live without assistance from the state type of guy. The honourable minister is or fr om the fam ily, from friends; a terrible attempting to put forth her views on the bill. All sorrow for that fam ily. honourable members will have their opportunity when they are recognized by the Speaker. At My other girlfriend's son, who is a year this time the honourable minister has the floor. older than this boy that I just referenced, was born with a birth defect and was not able to Jearn The honourable minister, to continue. as other children do. It is commonly referred to as mentally retarded. But he had a work Mrs. Mci ntosh: The basic diffe rence between expectation, and I am very proud of this boy the government and the opposition on this issue, because although he is retarded, he is employed. no matter how they vote, in terms of what they It is not a government-created job, it is what he believe and how we act out our mandates, is that calls a real job. Guess what, Auntie Linda, I we do not believe you can create and build have a real job, a real job. I got it by myself. It independence by fo stering dependence. We is not a big job. It is not a fancy job. It is a low­ believe that people given the opportunity to wage job. It is repetitive and, for most people, work will find great dignity and satisfaction in probably would be boring, but he takes pride in that. We believe that people will find greater his work. He does a good job, and his employer satisfaction being self-sufficientand independent thinks the world of him. He is now living than being dependent and having to rely upon independently, apart from his parents. He has somebody else. I have talked to a lot of people, two roommates. He takes the bus by himself to and in one sense I do agree with something that work every day, and the pride that that young was said by the member fo r Burrows (Mr. man has and the rising of his self-esteem has Martindale), and that is that most people do wish been a wonderful thing to watch. to work. Sometimes they are held back from working by fe ar. A lot of times they are held These two boys are disadvantaged people. back from working by fe ar. They are afraid, One may always require assistance from the they are nervous, they are afraid to face that first government, one may always need our help, and job, they are afraid of the interviews, they are that is what we are here for. That is what the afraid of being rejected. They need assistance in social assistance program is there fo r. The one terms of incentive. They need a reason to take boy who may not be able to sustain himself will that first brave step into the job market. be given assistance support from not only the family but from government. The other boy who All of us, I think, can remember times when may someday again require assistance, as he did we were nervous or apprehensive about having in his early twenties, can fo r the moment relish to take on a task and, if we could have, would his pride in being independent. have gone away from fac ing the time of trial in order to avoid the nervous feeling in the Madam Speaker in the Chair July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4323

Madam Speaker, I do not want ever to be vote-getting issue. If they vote against it, I may part of a governmentthat encourages people into not agree with them, but at least I will respect a life of welfare that is a cycle, that does go them for not having prostituted their ideals. down through generations. I do not want ever to be part of a government that says: you cannot Ms . Diane McGifford (O sborne) : Madam make it on your own, and I am not going to do Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to speak to anything to give you any incentive to make it on Bill 40 this evening, and like my colleague the your own. member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale) and like the Minister of Environment (Mrs. Mcintosh), I I do not want ever to be fostering depen­ will be brief. I know we discussed this bill in dence. We know that for those who are able great detail yesterday in the committee, and I bodied and able to work that in many cases all know that many members want to speak to it. that is needed is the incentive to go out and do that. To date, governments have not necessarily Basically, Madam Speaker, I am going to done a very good job of that. When we hear confine the remarks I make tonight to the deaf people being told, as some have been told, that community and to the presentations made by the their first opportunity is to go on welfare and deaf community. As I think members know, the stay on welfare, I shudder. Winnipeg Community Centre for the Deaf is in my community, and I feel very close to these * (1910) people and am very honoured to be their MLA.

So, Madam Speaker, I support this bill. As well, my colleague from Burrows did go There has been much said about it. I encourage through the amendments that we proposed people to read the committee hearings of yesterday, all of which were defeated, and so I Tuesday, July 13. Again, I repeat, the Hansard, do not want to reiterate what he said, but I can Bill 40, July 13, 1999. I encourage people hardly-in fact, I cannot refrain myself from reading this, which is a short summation, to get mentioning one of them. I quote from the that Hansard and read the longer debate, listen to amendment: "AND WHEREAS Manitoba has the rationale of people on all sides and under­ one of the highest rates of child poverty in stand. Canada, it is a related goal of welfare-to-work initiatives to reduce the rate of child poverty in Again, my basic premise is that you do not Manitoba." They voted against this, Madam create independence by fo stering dependence Speaker. I do not know whether they support and that you do a greater disservice to people child poverty or whether they did not want to ultimately by encouraging them to rely on others have it publicly stated that they had one of the than you do to encourage them to be self­ highest rates of child poverty in Canada. I know sustaining and independent. I believe that fo r many, many years, it was the highest; I think deeply. I guess it is a wedge issue. We believe we might not at this point be the child poverty that on this side. I know that is not what they capital of Canada. I think we might be second to believe on the other side, and I do not mind it Newfoundland or New Brunswick, I am not being a wedge issue. I do not know why they sure. are upset that it is. I do not know if it is a vote­ getting issue or not. I do not really care if it is or One of the interesting things was that the is not. I think this is the right way to go. Minister of Family Services rejected this amendment by saying that she did not trust the They believe it is a vote-getting issue, and I stats on child poverty because they were 1997 find that very interesting. That is why I think information, which I found kind of interesting they have come this close to supporting it because I know members opposite-! think of the because of their ulterior motives. I would be Minister of Health (Mr. Stefanson) who bats interested to see how the vote goes. Yesterday statistics around with great aplomb as though he they were going to support it; today I think they were a juggler. I think of the Minister of Health may not. I will say this, Madam Speaker, that if who constantly uses statistics, leading me to they vote for it, then I will know they see it as a believe that statistics are good when they are 4324 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999 using them but not when we are. Anyway, the Madam Spe ake r: Order, please. In the interest child poverty, the refusal of this particular of maintaining decorum in the Chamber, I would amendment, I fo und extremely disappointing. suggest that all members pick and choose their words carefully. However, if indeed the member stated the words initially in the same context she Now, the member for Burrows (Mr. spoke to the point of order, the honourable Martindale) has already pointed out that Bill 40 member fo r St. Norbert did not have a point of was gathered together very quickly one day in order. the Premier's (Mr. Filmon) office. He pointed out that the members opposite, the Progressive * * * Conservatives, if that is what they are calling themselves in this incarnation. I do not know Ms. McGiffor d: I thank you, Madam Speaker, whether they are the Filmon Conservatives, the for a wise decision. Well, I do not really have to progressives or just the plain old Conservatives. press this point. We do know that several years I do not know what they are, but anyway so I ago the Minister fo r Family Services gained will say members opposite. Maybe they are the herself notoriety and a certain title by spending Reform Conservatives now. I do not know. somewhere in the region of $5,000 on wine and a dinner party at restaurant in Winnipeg. Maybe Anyway, Madam Speaker, what I wanted to she did, pardon me, I am sorry, maybe she did say was that the members opposite have asked not have any wine. It was a piano? Five us to trust the details of this bill to the thousand dollars anyway was spent at a regulations, but, of course, people do not trust restaurant called Beaujolais by a Minister of this government. They do not trust members Family Services fo r this and earned herself a opposite, nor do they trust a minister known certain title. throughout the province as Bonnie Beaujolais, and I am going to tell you why she is called An Honourable Me mbe r: To talk about Bonnie Beaujolais. I want to quote from a news welfare. release where I read- Ms. McGiffor d: Yes, this was, ironically, a Point of Order meeting of ministers of Family Services.

Madam Spe aker: Order, please. The honour­ But, Madam Speaker, we digress and I did able member fo r St. Norbert, I believe, is up on a promise to be brief. So if I might- point of order. An Honour able Me mber: That is how they understand welfare, their own welfare. Mr. Marcel Laure ndeau (St. Norbe rt): Madam Speaker, clearly, the honourable member knows, if she is quoting something, that Ms. McGifford: Well, Madam Speaker, you is fine; but she should not be referring to any are being very indulgent, and thank you very member in this House other than as an much. honourable member, not the way she has been doing it. She knows that. I did want to address the issues of the deaf community in my con-stituency, but I also want Madam Spe aker: The honourable member for to congratulate members from the deaf Osborne, on the same point of order. community fo r their presentation. I noted at the committee that I have not seen a deaf person Ms. McGifford: I used the expression "Bonnie ever make a presentation to a committee. The Beaujolais." If it fits someone in the House, member fo r Burrows who has been here since well, then it does, but I did not name anyone in 1990 said he has never seen a deaf person this House. make a presentation at a committee. So I fe lt very proud of my constituents fo r Some Honour able Me mbe rs: Oh, oh. coming out here, fo r showing some leadership, July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4325 and I think we all congratulate them. I know that Madam Speaker, at the presentation in members of the committee did. committee, Ms. Theresa Swedick from the weco talked about how frequently the deaf Also, I thank you, Madam Speaker, for the community is left out of participating or role you played in obtaining interpreters, along consulting in any government decision. So she with the Clerk. So I thank you on the record. was very pleased to be given the opportunity to speak on behalf of her community. A contentious problem at the core of this bill fo r the deaf community is the question of I am going to paraphrase some of the things whether deaf people qualify fo r social assistance she said. She addressed the issue of addiction because they are deemed disabled. That is to and, of course, fo rced treatment fo r addiction is say, does a deaf person qualify because a deaf part and parcel of this bill. She pointed out that person may be deemed disabled, or is a deaf deaf persons can hardly receive addiction person not disabled? Several independent treatments when there are no support services by inquiries to the office of the Minister for Family way of interpretation. She pointed to a specific Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) said that no, a deaf example. A deaf person of her acquaintance person does not qualify for social assistance who apparently was suicidal was put into a because a deaf person is not disabled. A deaf treatment program, but there was not an person can work. interpreter. Now, what kind of situation is that? How could that help this individual come to * (1920) terms with his or her addiction? We do not know whether this is a male or a female and The deaf community believe that they do not indeed it does not matter. qualify fo r social assistance because they are not disabled. Now, the minister in the hall today to Now, there are interpreters at AFM. I under­ the press said, and I think I am paraphrasing her stand they are few and far between, but there is very correctly, anyone who is currently deemed the possibility of getting some interpretative disabled will be considered disabled under the services. The problem is that people who attend new legislation. Apparently, Madam Speaker, I courses at AFM are then frequently asked to take that to mean that deaf people will not be attend Alcoholics Anonymous meetings, and included unless they have been deemed disabled once they attend those meetings, once again they by a medical panel, and I want to return to this are at a disadvantage because there are not issue later. interpretative services usually.

So I think that what Theresa Swedick was An Honourable Member: That is right. saying is that the bill is unworkable because it demands something. It demands certain Ms. McGifford: I am glad to see that the obligations on the part of citizens, but no Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) is agreeing obligations to allow citizens to fulfill their with me because I fe lt that the minister's remarks duties. There are no resources for deaf people in the hallway today were calculated to be a little or, to be perfectly correct, I should say there are misleading, or at least an effort to shroud the not enough resources to make addiction issue in mystery, to obfuscate. I do not think programs possible. that she helped to clarify the issue because, of course, she would like it to be believed that the I think that the point was also made that the deaf community do qualify. But of course they waiting list is long, long, long, way too long, and do not, unless they are deemed disabled. I know that the minister today and indeed in the committee talked about putting $500,000 more Interestingly, the woman who reported to into treating addiction services, but she did not the committee and made a presentation to the address the issue of interpretative services. committee is judged to be disabled, but not When this woman spoke at the committee, she because she cannot hear, not because she is deaf, did not address the issue of interpretative because of other physical issues. services. 4326 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999

The same kind of issues that exist for because it does not allow them to be declared addiction programs also exist fo r parenting disabled, at the same time the government is not programs. If deaf people are to take parenting providing them with work, so where are these programs, then indeed, they need parenting people caught and what will this bill do to them? programs where interpreters are present at all Does it mean all of them will have to seek 35 times. If deaf people are to attend education and hours of volunteer labour a week? Again, of training programs, then they need to have course, that would be an impossibility because interpreters. It is not possible to be educated just as there are not employers, there are not when you are deaf if you do not have agencies in the community that are equipped to interpretation. accept volunteers because of the lack, once again, of interpretation. One of the very sad things we heard at the committee was Ms. Swedick talking about her So I think in closing tonight, I want to say struggle fo r employment, how she had taken that I am extremely disappointed in this course after course after course. She is clearly a government fo r refusing all of our amendments. very well-educated, talented woman, and yet she I want to vote against this bill, because it is having great difficulty finding a position. unfairly penalizes the deaf community, and. of Employers, unfortunately, do not want to hire course, my first loyalty is to my constituents. people who are hearing impaired or deaf, and I think there is some responsibility on the part of Mr. Laurendeau: Madam Speaker, this is my government to educate employers in this area, first opportunity I have had to speak to Bill 40, and certainly, I think there is an obligation on either here in the House or in committee. Let me government to lead the way in hiring deaf people tell you, to start off, I am proud to be a member and, of course, other people with other of a government that believes in giving fam ilies disabilities. in need a hand up and not a handout. For all too long, governments of the past believed in just I am merely talking about this one, because bringing them into the trough, fe eding them and it is the one that I dealt with most recently. then attempting to set them fr ee. It does not Well, Madam Speaker, speaking of the question work with wild animals, and it does not work of employment, I did want to put on the record with people either. If you have somebody at the that we were told by Theresa Swedick that 83 trough, they are there fo r life unless you train percent of her community is unemployed; 83 them to get off of the trough. percent, that is a staggering figure. I did promise to be brief. I had many other things that I The importance about workfare is exactly wanted to say, but I think that I would like to that. The example that we must look at is what close by saying that the deaf community, like experience does one receive when they take a other communities who made presentation to the job either volunteering or in an area somewhere committee, said over and over again in a variety within the community. Each job has its own of ways that what they want most are jobs. They impact upon that person. Within my business want the dignity of respectful work. They want career when I had a couple of small businesses, I to take a paycheque home. They want to make used to bring in some people through a system this kind of contribution to their community, but that I had developed, and it was a mentor this government is not providing the services system. that make that possible. * (1930) I recently did a survey in my community and asked constituents to identify their No. 1 issue, We took people who did not have jobs, and I can assure you, I can assure all members of Madam Speaker, who did not have the ability to this House, that the material that came from the get jobs because nobody taught them how to get Winnipeg Community Centre of the Deaf listed a job, No. 1, or what a job even meant. It was jobs, jobs, jobs as their primary issue. These not always easy. Sometimes we could only have people want to work. Unfortunately, this bill them fo r two and three days, and they were puts these people in a very awkward position, gone. It took us awhile to get them back, but we July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4327 had great success when we created in them not rolls in this province since 1996. The only an incentive, but a want to succeed, and there province in Canada to have done so. Madam was a willingness to want to succeed. What Speaker, go to Saskatchewan or go to British gave them that willingness was the ability to say Columbia where they have NDP governments, I enjoy what I am doing, and I do not enjoy the new NDP governments, what do they have? receiving something for nothing. Increased rolls. So do not tell me about the new NDP. My mother was a great one for welfare. My mother used to fe ed the people who came Now, the members have all spoken about through the community of St. Norbert in the bringing forward 12 amendments to this legis­ past, but they never got something for nothing. lation. I find it very interesting that they say they If they came in, yes, there was a meal fo r them, brought forward and we voted against 12 of their but for that meal, there was a garden outside that amendments. Well, three of their amendments needed weeds picked. There could have been a were ruled out of order. I could give the reasons, fe nce that might have had to have six boards but I do not think that will be necessary. painted, but those six boards would be painted. Why? Because you would receive your Let us look at the other amendments that sustenance if you gave something in return. they brought fo rward. Right off the bat, they That is what it was all about. There was not had one in the WHEREAS in the preamble. something for nothing. It was something fo r Well, let us not get into the detail of it because something. Madam Speaker, they fe lt satisfied right then we would be promoting what the NDP that they were not receiving something for promote day in and day out in this House, and nothing, yet they had the sustenance fo r the day. that is negativism. There were some hard times back then, but people made it through. They made it through Madam Speaker, I am tired of that, because without these types of programs that we have we have to start speaking positively about this today. province and the positive initiatives in this province and stop speaking about the negative Today we are taking and improving these impacts that the NDP left us after their tenure. programs. This government in its tenure has im­ So their first one was not worth supporting and proved its addiction programs. It has improved we did not support it, and I am proud of it. its child daycare programs. It has improved on its education programs. Because of the steps Let us look at a couple of the other that this government has taken dramatically on amendments that the members brought forth. I the economic side, we are more able to work can basically put a couple of them together, I now today on the social deficit left to us by that think: student social assistance program, avail­ governmentbef ore us. ability of education or training, availability of addiction treatment program, availability of It was not only deficits and deficit funding parenting support programs. Madam Speaker, that ran with that government, it was social they must be in our policy book, because this is deficits, Madam Speaker, that today we are our policy. We are doing it today. We will do it having to correct. Will it happen overnight? tomorrow. We will have it in the future. We do No, but we, over a decade, have been working at not need it in this legislation. We already have it it one step at a time. We have put fo rward as we do with the Workplace Safety and Health ChildrenFirst policies because that is who is and the workmen's compensation, each and important. Because in some cases that is who every one of these amendments the minister had we must have succeed in the future to save. If an answer for. Did they listen? No, they did we as a government do not succeed, welfare will not. be there into the future, but if we can succeed in giving jobs in this province, we have done it. Each and every one of these amendments was not worth the paper they were written on. We have the lowest unemployment rate in They were written to give them the availability all of Canada. We have reduced the welfare and the ability to say: we will vote against this 4328 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999 legislation because they did not support us in our community. It is a very interesting process of amendments. Trash. That is what it is. As they public policy formation. go through the doors, will they say they support workfare? No. The member for Burrows (Mr. I want to fo cus fo r a moment just on the Martindale) does not support workfare. He "consult" piece, because I think the minister believes in government supporting people from genuinely does not understand the degree to cradle to grave. That is what the member which she has deeply, profoundly alienated those believes in. The member fo r Osborne (Ms. who have disabling conditions in the way she McGifford), what does she believe in? Cradle to has treated them in this bill. I have worked with grave. This government does not believe in it. those in the disability community since before This government believes in a job, a job fo r all 1976, when I became director of the Social Manitobans, and a job is what we will give them. Planning Council. In fa ct, I used to meet every I am proud of this government, and I will con­ month with the directors of the major agencies: tinue to fight for the people of Manitoba. I will CNIB; what was then SCC and A, and now it is see that they have a just and fair government, the Society for Manitobans with Disabilities; and that is what this minister and this Premier Canadian Paraplegic Association, under the able (Mr. Filmon) will give all Manitobans in the leadership of John Lane; Canadian Mental future and into the next millennium. Thank you, Health Association. Madam Speaker. In fact it was during that time that we Some Honourabl e Members: Oh, oh. welcomed Bill Martin as an executive director. Without any exceptions those who had physical Madam Speaker: Order, please. or mental challenges, whether they were in the fo rm of a person like Euclid Herie, a great Mr. Ti m Sal e (Crescentw ood): I just wish that Canadian and a great president of the Canadian I had a chance to attend that presentation at the National Institute of the Blind, or whether it was Fringe last week. It was one of the better Fringe Archie Carmichael, then the director of SCC and performances of comedy, I guess. I missed it, A, and not a person with a disability. though, but I am glad I could catch the reprise tonight in the House. * (1940)

To a person, they wanted to be expected to This is a very interesting bill, Madam work. They wanted to work. They wanted Speaker. It is the first time that I know of where training to work. They wanted devices to help a government ran a fo cused group, got an issue, them to work. They wanted interpreters to help crafted an ad, ran it on television, and then said: them to work. They wanted work, and now this my goodness, we better get a bill. So they had a minister says at the end of the day, after we group get together in the Premier's office over passed the legislation: we are going to talk to one afternoon, and they put together this little the disabled. She has no idea how angry David piece of legislation looking for an election that Martin is. No clue how angry those people like they were too afraid to call on May 18 or May Ms. Swedick are when they are seen by the whenever. It is a new way of making public governmentas not entitled to work, because they policy. Have a fo cus group, run an ad and then are disabled. I do not think she has any idea put together the legislation on public policy. how offensive that is. It is deeply and profoundly offensive to that community. The next step that they are going to take reveals where this minister actually is in her I sat through most of the presentations, thinking. Now that the bill is going to be forced though I missed a fe w. I was impressed with the through the House by this government, they are civility and the patience and the depth of feeling going to consult with the community that they that was expressed by people who said over and are going to affect, so we really have an over and over again, a paraphrase of what interesting order. Focus group, television ad, Churchill said in World War II: give us the cobble the bill together, and then consult the tools, and we wilJ do the job. Give us the tools, July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4329 and we will do the job. We want to do the job. this legislation, and there is certainly nothing We want access to education. We want access to wrong with saying that before someone should the bridges of opportunity. We want employers have their benefits reduced for an addiction, they to see us as abled, not disabled. We want to should have, first of all, the privilege of a work; to a person, they said that. They said: diagnosis by an agency that is competent, and, give us the child care. Give us the supports. secondly, they should have access to programs Give us the access to real work, and we will beat that might help them deal with their addiction. down your doors. But, no, we could not do either of those We looked at this bill, and I feel badly. things, because the minister said we already do fe el actually quite badly fo r the members who that. Now, what kind of perverted logic says we sat opposite and puzzled over our amendments, cannot accept an amendment because it is our trying hard to see what devious scheme did we policy? Perverse logic. have in mind in moving these amendments. But, Madam Speaker, the most astounding The scheme that we had in mind, Madam thing of all is to hear members-and I am Speaker, was a transparent attempt to hold the disappointed in the member fo r St. Norbert (Mr. government accountable for what it says its Laurendeau)-say that an amendment calling on policy is. Over and over again, in response to this bill to have as one of its purposes the reasoned and thoughtful amendments, the reduction of child poverty was a negative thing, minister said that is our policy. We already do that it revealed negative thinking. Those were that. So we said: well, then, fine, put it in the the words he used just a fe w minutes ago in this legislation, so those who are affected by your House. We asked the minister to accept that a legislation will know that that is your policy, goal of her system was the amelioration of child and, more importantly, that you will be poverty, and she said no. She said, no, it is not. accountable for what you say. She even at one It is not a goal of our system to reduce child point, I believe, said trust us. Trust us. poverty.

Well, "trust us" is not something that You know, in an unconscious way I guess somebody who is vulnerable wants to hear when she was reflecting the fact that it was her they are facing, as Susan Bruce is facing, loss of government that cut $20 a month off babies' support when she is caring for disabled children, food allowance. It was her government that because she happens to be articulate and presided over a growth in the social welfare rolls assertive and obviously capable of work and of this province by 12,000 people. It was her would like in fact to work except for the fact that governmentthat has made the lot of low income she has a seriously disabled daughter who needs people worse, has seen us as the child poverty her very badly to be present as a parent. capital of Canada for all but the last six months or a year, for years and years and years. Every reasoned amendment we put fo rward­ make sure the training courses are available, So, apparently, the amelioration of poverty make sure the addiction programs are available­ is not a goal of the social welfare system. What every time the minister said that is our policy, an appalling position to take in order to get but, of course, she could not vote for the cheap votes, in order not to have any sense that amendment. the NDP might be concerned about something legitimately in this bill. You could not even Now, that is a curious position to take accept an amendment about child poverty. because our statutes, Madam Speaker, are full of redundancies for very good reason, because you Then the capper on the cake. The NDP has often want to know that notwithstanding what always believed in full employment, and as a you may think, this law, in fact, does apply in matter of fact, it is one of our founding the case under question. So there is nothing principles, has always believed that people wrong with saying Workplace Safety and Health should contribute to the maximum extentof their applies to all those who would be affected by capacity. It has always believed that. So when 4330 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999 we put forward an amendment that said that it is acknowledge was a wedge issue in which she the job of all those who are employable, it is a could pit some Manitobans against others and social obligation to seek employment, a social divide rather than unite, and that is apparently obligation, they went through what the Minister the only objective of this bill, hatched in a focus of Housing (Mr. Reimer) talked about as group, put together through an ad and finally pretzelization. I watched the honourable drafted through this hasty legislation, Madam Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews) make a mockery Speaker. I am sorry that the government has of the English language trying to figure out how sunk to such a level. he could get the idea of socialist out of social obligation. It was quite an amazing performance Mrs. My rna Driedger (Charleswood): I am for someone who is supposed to be a wordsmith pleased to rise in the House today to support Bill of the English language, to be able to tum the 40. This is an important piece of legislation idea that an individual has an obligation to which will allow us to help all Manitobans reach society into some notion that I guess conforms to their full potential and become active partici­ his idea of strange people under the bed, that this pants in the Manitoba labour force. was a socialist view, that an individual person with skills and abilities has a social obligation to society. I would like to note from the outset, Madam Speaker, that the amendments we are proposing In summary, Madam Speaker, what this side in Bill 40 would not affect Manitobans with of the House believes is that a civil society is disabilities. In fa ct, we have maintained or made up of obligations, responsibilities, rights increased the benefits which are made available and privileges, and where there is an obligation, to this group. In the future, though, we will there must also be the ability to fulfill that examine the system to make sure that it meets obligation. Where there is a responsibility, there the needs of this group as effectively as possible. is also a right, and every one of our amendments Furthermore, benefitsto recipients with children was to put forward a balanced view, that if we will not be affected in a way to compromise a are to hold people accountable for being citizens child's well-being. in a civil society, we as a government must be accountable to them in terms of opportunity. This has been clearly stated from the outset, Madam Speaker. However, the NDP have been We believe in bridges of opportunity, manipulating this information, thereby attempt­ bridges of hope. We believe in the means to find ing to create fear amongst the public. This has employment. We believe Ms. Swedick has the been shameful. [interjection] right to find her way into the workforce. If that means confronting prejudice, if that means Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honour­ providing an interpreter, if that means skills able member for Charleswood. training, she, as a citizen, has the right to get that so she can offer her skills to our society, her very Mrs. Driedger: We currently have more jobs in obvious and considerable skills. this province than we have people to fill them. Why then, Madam Speaker, should we sit idly * (1950) by and do nothing when there are jobs to be had and people eke out meagre existences on social Every one of our amendments was put assistance? This would be irresponsible forward to balance the equation of civil society, governance. In its capacity as a leader, the of citizens committed to meeting the needs of Manitoba government has an obligation to its each other and of their society and equipped to citizens to lead them to healthy and productive do so and supported to do so. And if they see lives. [interjection] some devious pattern behind amendments like that, it is a true reflection, I suppose, of the Madam Speaker: Order, please. Could I depths to which they are prepared to sink to try please ask all members for a little common to find what the Minister of the Environment courtesy and to carry on any exchanges outside (Mrs. Mcintosh) had at least the honesty to the Chamber. The honourable member fo r July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4331

Charleswood has been recognized three times basis. There is an expression, and I have used it now to put her comments on the record. before and I think it is valid again: if you give a man a fish, you fe ed him for a day; if you teach a Mrs. Driedger: This government is committed man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime. I really to improving the social potential of this have to wonder which philosophy the NDP province, and allowing significant numbers of adhere to. Manitobans to be stuck on social assistance is not acceptable as far as we are concerned. Now Our proposed amendments will help people is the time to reform our social assistance system make the transition into the workforce and give and to help people to make the transition from them their independence and pride. It will help welfare to work at a time when there is much us break the intergenerational dependence on work to be had. Social assistance was never welfare that we see far too often. Parents often intended as a permanent income replacement tell their children that they want them to have program fo r able-bodied individuals. It is more than they did growing up. Inter­ intended as a temporary arrangement for people generational welfare dependency makes it very who are faced with exceptional circumstances hard for parents to make this possible for their and require assistance to get them through. children.

The way my government wishes to address A link in the chain needs to be severed. this issue is to equip people with the skills they People need to be given education and to be need to enter the workforce, so they can become encouraged into the workforce. Only then will fu lly productive and self-sufficient. Providing a they improve their chances and those of their higher income fo r themselves and their fam ilies fam ilies. In speaking to a teacher recently in my gives them greater resources but also greater area, she was telling me a story of an eight-year­ pride and self-reliance. old boy whom she was reprimanding in school and telling him that it was really important to In one of the presentations, Madam Speaker, learn as much as he could so that when he grew we heard the story of a young boy who was 18 at up he could get a good job, and the little boy, the time he applied fo r a job. Michael came into eight years old, said to the teacher, well, why a grocery store and wanted a job. He had taken should I have to? My dad's on welfare; he does the trouble to get himself all dressed up in a suit. not have to work and I could do the same thing. When he came in, he told the grocer that he had So an eight-year-old boy had already learned schizophrenia, that he would only be able to something at his very young age. work as he was able to and that he had to go to the hospital every second Thursday fo r a needle. Michael wanted a job very, very badly. In all Madam Speaker, since my government these years, he has maintained that job and he embarked on welfare reform, we have seen has made $200 a month that helps him with his substantial numbers of Manitobans make the rent, and this young man is totally self-sufficient transition from welfare to work. More and more and very proud of his work and being able to Manitobans are freeing themselves from the contribute. He will tell you that his work chains of welfare dependency. We are proud of matters to him a lot. He values the job and the our welfare reform initiatives which, since being dignity that work has provided for him. introduced in 1996, have helped us remove more Everyone needs to have that opportunity. than 18,000 people off social assistance. Manitoba's welfare rate is now the second lowest Madam Speaker, we want to help people in Canada and this is something to be very proud help themselves, and helping to move them in of. the right direction will give them the tools they need to become self-sufficient. Allowing people Madam Speaker, in a seven-year period in to spend their whole lives on welfare is unfair, the 1980s, the municipal welfare caseload grew unkind and disrespectful. We would far rather by over 170 percent and the provincial caseload prepare people to enter the workforce than give by 22 percent. No measures were put in place to them social assistance cheques on an ongoing stop the momentum of the system, and the entire 4332 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999

social assistance program certainly, surely, Madam Speaker: Order, please. would have collapsed under its weight. Mrs. Driedger: It would be awfully hard for It is interesting, Madam Speaker, the NDP them, Madam Speaker, to accept a bill which have been so good at criticizing, but when they was so strongly opposed by the Manitoba had a chance in the '80s to make a diffe rence, Federation of Labour and CUPE. The NDP are what did they do? The NDP wants so badly to on record, in March of '97, on a private be seen as today's NDP, the new NDP. This bill, member's resolution, saying that people should however, has really fo rced them to look at their not have to participate in work or training true identity, and they have struggled with it. At programs in order to receive assistance. How times, in committee, they have huffe d and they can their NDP now tum their backs on people have puffed with such indignation during some who have believed them fo r years? They would of the presentations, and at other times they have be seen to be the ultimate hypocrites. They sat there quietly and said nothing. would lose all creditability among their supporters. So what will the party of contra­ * (2000) dictions stand fo r? How will the public know what they stand fo r anymore? They tried to bring in amendments to make it more palatable fo r them, and then when the Madam Speaker, the NDP were so anxious Minister of Environment (Mrs. Mcintosh) was to have the House recalled so people could see asking them about the amendment, the sub­ them in action, yet they have shown no vision, stantiality of the amendments and wondering no cohesion, no energy, no leadership and no why the NDP were putting fo rth these amend­ consistency. All we have heard from them is ments, a comment I believe I heard, fr om the their usual shuck and jive. So, what will we see? member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), said The new NDP or the old NDP? A flipor a flop? "public perception." I really have to wonder what he meant. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

An Honourable Member: I think you should Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Madam get your hearing checked by the way. Speaker, I was very interested in some of the comments that the member fo r Charleswood Mrs. Driedger: I heard very well. The minister (Mrs. Driedger) put on the record, and I will was talking about the amendment. The paraphrase them because I wrote them down. I comments that were being made from the am not sure that I will get every word right and member for Thompson was "public perception," will not until I see Hansard. I, unlike the which really questions the creditability of the member fo r Charleswood, do not assume that amendments, the motivation of the amendments, what I thought I heard was accurate without the sincerity of the amendments, and the respect getting it on the record first. of people on welfare.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker, the member for Charles­ wood said that Bill 40 would equip people with Madam Speaker: Order, please. the skills they need to enter the workforce and would help people to help themselves. Now, the Mrs. Driedger: Bill 40 represents the opposite problem with Bill 40 specifically is that it does of what the NDP stand for. Their values and not do that. The minister has even admitted that philosophy absolutely oppose what we are trying there are no services in place. She has not done to do with this bill. So how could they possibly the consultation with various groups to find out. support a bill so strongly opposed by the people She had not consulted with the community they invited to make presentations? [interjection] groups that she is counting on to provide It actually is in the Hansard. workplace and volunteer locations. She has said that she has not yet done that. So how she can Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. say, how the government can say, this is a good July I4, I999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4333 piece of legislation, when it was ill conceived? programs. I have worked prior to my becoming As the member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) a member of the Legislature. I did work for the said, the timing was very interesting. Women's Post Treatment Centre, which is now the Laurel Centre. I know the people who started I think that the reason Bill 40 was conceived that program in I984. Muriel Smith and the and delivered in the haste and in the dead of former government did put in place the Women's night in the Premier's office is because the Post Treatment Program. What this program has Premier (Mr. Filmon) did not have the courage done with a great deal of success over the past to call the election on May I8, when everyone in IS years is it recognizes that women, No. I, have this House and virtually everybody in the special needs and requirements and treatment province of Manitoba thought there was going to modes that are different in many cases from be an election. All of a sudden, they have those that men have. It also recognizes that many television ads ready. They have their platform women have chemical addictions or drug all going for something they are going to do, and addictions or other addictions as a result of then all of a sudden they are not into the election childhood sexual abuse. Those two things put campaign. Oh, oh, Madam Speaker, they are together are uniquely in the province of going to have to produce something, so they are Manitoba and almost uniquely in the country producing Bill 40. The lack of appropriate dealt with by the Laurel Centre. gestation is shown in Biii 40. * (20 IO) Mr. Gerry McAlpine, Acting Speaker, in the Chair Now, the Laurel Centre has a waiting list of IS months fo r any new client to come into that The member for Charleswood says that we program. I do not know of any other treatment put forward the amendments we did in com­ program for addictions that deals specifically mittee to make the debate more palatable for us. with women's addictions and understands the I would like to say that we put forward the unique characteristic of many of the problems amendments we did on Bill 40 specifically, that face women with addictions, not another because we recognized that Bill 40 in its ill­ program in the province-IS-month waiting list. conceived and hastily thought-out production did What we are saying in our amendment is if you not do and will not do and cannot do what the want to have on the one hand people take member for Charleswood said was the objective responsibility for their lives and say I have a of the bill, which was to equip people to enter problem and I want to work on it, that is fine, but the workforce. to do that, to force a person or to say to a person you must take responsibility and then not on the Our amendments will or would have, had other hand provide the balance, provide the the government had the courage to accept even service so that they can actually do that, what one of them, done that or gone a long way have you done? What classic hypocrisy that is. towards making that actually happen. Our You demand something on the one hand and you amendments would have ensured that workers in do not give it on the other. paid jobs would not be replaced by workers in any workfare program. The goal is to keep This government has spent a lot of time Manitobans working and to have more reducing supports for people on social Manitobans working. It is not to replace current assistance. Many of my caucus colleagues have workers with people who might come in without spoken out on that over the years. Again, many, even any salary at all. if not the majority of people on social assistance are women, and many of them women with Our amendments would have ensured that small children. recipients actually have reasonable access to drug treatment, parenting support, education and One area that we did not actually talk about, training programs. I want to speak just briefly I do not think, much in the committee but is very about that situation, in particular, the whole issue important in this whole area is the fact of of access to drug and other addiction treatment maintenance enforcement. I would like to speak 4334 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999 just briefly about maintenance enforcement. I because your worker or your director says that am wondering ifthe government members know you have an addiction, and you say, fine, I will that right now or as of May 25, 1999, the latest do that, tell me where to go. What is the waiting information we have received from the director list fo r the St. Norbert Foundation? The St. of the Maintenance Enforcement Program, the Norbert Foundation is not the appropriate arrears owed to fam ilies, read children, in the treatment locale fo r many people in this province province of Manitoba now totals $42.26 million. who have addictions. I am not going to go into That is money that is legally, legitimately and all of that. You need a range of treatment morally owed to the parents and children in the programs. We do not have anywhere near a province of Manitoba. What has this government range. done about it? They have talked about main­ tenance enforcement. They have talked about it There is not one appropriate treatment for a decade. They still do not have even the program fo r everyone. The St. Norbert Foun­ basics of allowing fo r enough front-line staff to dation, my understanding is that it treats fam ilies answer the telephones, fo r Pete's sake. and individuals, but a lot of it is families. What I said earlier about the Laurel Centre is that You cannot get through to the maintenance women often need addictions treatment that enforcement number. The maintenance enforce­ works only with women, that does not include ment officers have caseloads that are, I think, men involved. You talk to any women's over 300 cases. The active number of accounts, organization, the member fo r St. Norbert, and for accounts, which is kind of a business person's you will find that is the situation. I am not accountant situation, the active number of denigrating the St. Norbert Foundation. I am fam ilies that we are talking about here that are saying there is a range of treatment programs owed $42.26 million is 14,009. Mr. Acting that need to be put in place. We do not have a Speaker, 14,009 fam ilies in the province of range of treatment programs. Manitoba, mostly women, the vast majority if not virtually all headed by women and their This piece of legislation is not worth the children, are owed $42.26 million. What has paper it is written on. It is a disgrace to the this government done? It has continued to government. The people of Manitoba will know provide no support at all for the maintenance exactly what it is. Thank you. enforcement people. Mr. Ben Sveinson (La Verendrye): I rise Those maintenance enforcement officers do tonight to speak a little bit more on Bill 40. I incredible work with no resources. Try to have had the opportunity to speak a number of imagine that you have a parent on the phone, times in committee on this particular bill or when you finally get in touch with them, who pieces of it, but I have to say a few more words has not had a maintenance payment fo r months to make things quite clear. I have to start off and months and months. She is going to go on with a little bit of fu n, and maybe a little bit of it social assistance. A very large percentage of is at my own expense. those families are on social assistance because this government refuses to do anything about I said yesterday in committee, and I just maintenance enforcement. Then they have the want to touch a little bit here, read out the centre gall, unmitigated, I might add, to stand in this part of it. I know people in the general public House and talk about their principles about will say that the NDP have clearly prostrated getting people off welfare. Well, if it were not themselves by voting fo r this legislation. such a joke, such a dreadful joke, it would be However, I will give it this much, that I might laughable. have said "prostated." I might have. That is not the joke. The joke is this, that the member for It is not laughable because these are real Osborne (Ms. McGifford), the member fo r human people that we are talking about here that Thompson (Mr. Ashton), the member fo r this government, through Bill 40, is saying, on Crescentwood (Mr. Sale), and the member fo r the one hand, you better go get in addiction Burrows (Mr. Martindale), all had a jolly laugh, training because you have got an addiction, figuring it was at my expense, and that is all July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4335 right. I can take that. But there was something with you in that arena. He seemed to be very behind all this. wounded. I did also, when he used the word "prostated," say that is a gland. Those were the You see the member for Osborne then said: only exchanges I had with this member. I do not It is not prostated-ridiculing me-it is not use the word that he accused me of using prostrated, it is prostituted. That is exactly what because I find it extremely offensive to women. she said. That is exactly what she said, exactly. I assure you, he either misheard or dreamed it up The joke was this. The joke was- because it is not a word that I use, and I am extremely angry with this member. Point of Order * (2020) Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order. The Minister of Justice Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and (Mr. Toews) talks about they are not going to Attorney General): Mr. Acting Speaker, I seize my car because of this. You know, I find it believe that members opposite are using the term amazing that members of this House would be in a very narrow sense. I think the sense that the using terms, and by the way, for the member member for La Verendrye used the word in is, in opposite, the only person in that committee that a sense, of being mercenary. These opposition was using the term "prostitute" was the Minister members have demonstrated that they are of Environment (Mrs. Mcintosh), a phrase that I nothing but mercenaries. They change their find absolutely objectionable. No member of this policies whenever it suits them. In that sense, House, in any context on or off the record, the word that was used, the word to prostitute, should be in a position of having that term used. does not necessarily have a sexual connotation. It is not only unparliamentary; it is absolutely Indeed, it does not have a sexual connotation in about the lowest form you could ever get to in that sense. They are mercenaries. That is what I terms of debate. think the context of the conversation was, and that is not unparliamentary. I point in Beauchesne to similar language on 492, Mr. Acting Speaker, not being included, The Acting Speaker (Mr. McAlpine): Thank and I find it regrettable this member in trying to you. Order, please. I think the honourable correct his misspeaking himself, put that on the members who wish to carry on a conversation, I record. Most definitely, the member fo r Osborne would ask you to come to order, please. Order. (Ms. McGifford) was not using that term. The member who was using it was the Minister of Environment yesterday from her seat. I thought I would remind honourable members that it was so inappropriate that I did not even deal when they are called to order they would with that in committee yesterday. consider the proper decorum that they are fam iliar with in the Chamber. When a member is speaking, when the member is acknowledged, Mr. Acting Speaker, on a bill as serious as that they would allow the member to speak and this, we do not need terms like that used, and I treat them like all honourable members. would like you to call that member to order and have him withdraw those comments. I was attempting to deal with a point of order that was brought to the attention by the The Acting Speaker (Mr. McAlpine): The honourable member for Thompson. The honour­ honourable member fo r Osborne, on the same able member fo r Thompson did not have a point point of order. of order. It is clearly a dispute over the facts.

Ms. McGifford: On the same point of order, Mr. Ashton: Mr. Acting Speaker, is that Mr. Acting Speaker, the only exchange I had appropriate fo r a member to use the term with the member for La Verendrye (Mr. "prostitution" in this House, not a reference to Sveinson) was when he said do you not fe el anything else other than members of this House? silly, and I said I could not begin to compete Is that appropriate? I would like to know if that "t • 4336 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999 is your ruling, because if that is the case we will wanted to make. The point that I wanted to be challenging the ruling. make before I was so rudely interrupted was, and I point out, that the members across the way The Acting Speaker (Mr. McAlpine): In knew exactly what they were doing with these response to the honourable member for Thomp­ amendments. They used the word that explained son, with regard to the point of order that was it very, very well. So the word that they used raised, the honourable member fo r Thompson and that they do not want to say that they used, was referencing the parliamentary reference they know exactly what it was and they know made to prostitution by the honourable member exactly how they used it, and it explains it fo r La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson). The honour­ perfectly. able member, and I was listening very carefully to the honourable member fo r La Verendrye, Mr. Acting Speaker, I do not want to go on was not referring to any honourable member in too long here, but I just want to say, just to touch reference to prostitution. He was referencing a on a fe w of the things, be it motherhood and collective reference to all members. So, to the apple pie, that they applied to a number of these honourable member, on the basis of that, it is not amendments, and then they threw in the words: unparliamentary, and the honourable member no applicant, recipient or dependant is required does not have a point of order. to comply, no assistance shall be denied and so on, along with the motherhood and apple pie. * * * And then they said: we cannot understand, we just do not understand why you do not go along Mr. Ashton: I challenge your ruling. with it.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McAlpine): The There are so many things that I want to get ruling of the Chair has been challenged. into here, but I do not know if I will have the time. I just want to say this: the member fo r Voice Vote Thompson (Mr. Ashton) sat across the way and he mentioned a number of things like saying: The Acting Speaker (Mr. McAlpine): All we believe in workfare, we believe in workfare. those in favour of upholding the ruling of the It seems to me that I heard him say something Chair, please say yea. like: we believe in balanced budgets. That does not go back too far, does it? Some Honourable Members: Yea. What do the people across the way have The Acting Speaker (Mr. McAlpine): All there? Commitment. Integrity. Understanding. those against. Do they stand up fo r what they believe? Well, I am not too sure about that. I am really not too Some Honourable Members: Nay. sure.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McAlpine): In my Let us take a look back. We heard it just opinion, the Yeas have it. used here a little while back that this particular piece of legislation was an election gimmick. An Honourable Member: On division. Let me see if I can find anything to do with the balanced budget legislation. It was an election The Acting Speaker (Mr. McAlpine): On gimmick too, remember? Yes, Sir, it was an division. election gimmick, and here it is. Mr. Hickes said it. An election gimmick, yes, it is in Mr. Sveinson: If the members had waited for Hansard. me to stand, Mr. Acting Speaker, I would have removed the word "prostituted," not that in fact * (2030) it had not been said in that committee, but just because it riled somebody. I would have Mr. Doer said: it is a cynical pre-election removed it. That is still not the point that I ploy. And Mr. Sale said: balancing a budget July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4337 every year cannot be defended on any economic dignity, therefore be it resolved that the ground. Just imagine that. Mr. Ashton said: Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the this bill will not work. Barrett said, or Ms. provincial government to consider refusing to Barrett said: this legislation does not correspond implement or participate in any employment with any economic theory known to personkind, program which forces social assistance recipi­ either historical theory or current economic ents to accept employment which they have not theory. freely chosen or which forces social assistance recipients to involuntarily participate in work Mr. Jennissen said: it was created for programs as a condition of eligibility for their election purposes. Does it not have that ring to welfare allowances. it? Ms. Wowchuk said: no government needs balanced budget legislation. It was not too long How many of the people across the way ago that this particular group across the way said stood up and said: we believe in people having that they believed in balanced budgets. They did to work. What do these words say? not add those extra words, though, balanced budgets and balanced budget legislation, because I truly believe that the people of Manitoba in the first chance they ever got they will rip it out this next election will really judge things well, and chuck it. That is what they believe in. and they will be lucky to have one seat left in this House. Thank you, Mr. Acting Speaker. No government needs balanced budget legislation. Ms. Friesen said: it is one of those Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Acting more unthinking pieces of legislation. Speaker, I have been listening carefully for a number of weeks to debate on this bill both in Point of Order the House and at the committee, and I want to start off by saying that I think we would agree Mr. Sale: With the greatest respect, Mr. Acting that welfare is not the solution to unemployment. Speaker, the bill under debate is Bill 40. It has We know that welfare is well under the poverty nothing to do with balanced or unbalanced line-we could call it institutionalized poverty­ budgets. It has to do with social assistance. I and we know that there is a complex need fo r wonder if you could ask the member who is programming and services in this area to provide speaking to speak to the bill under question and the transition from welfare to work in a success­ not to speak to irrelevant matters so that we can fu l fashion. To make that transition permanent, conclude this debate in an orderly fashion. to make that transition actually elevate people out of poverty is a complex problem. Unfortu­ The Acting Speaker (Mr. McAlpine): The nately, this government is not so complex. member for Crescentwood, I believe, does have a point of order. I would remind all honourable We, on the other hand, recognizing that members, when they are speaking to this bill, welfare is not the solution have a history of Bill 40, that they direct their comments and programs that work. The NDP has demonstrated remarks to the bill. I would ask the honourable a creation of a number of programs. It was member fo r La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson) to interesting at the presentations on the bill, Mr. continue. Acting Speaker, that one of the speakers who talked about being a former welfare mother, *** when asked how she did it, how she went from welfare to work to be there before us, she Mr. Sveinson: I have to point to just a couple referenced the Access program, one of the of things said by a few of the people across the successful programs that the NDP put in place way. It has been pointed out earlier, for example, that this government has reduced and has stood Mr. Martindale has said: whereas workfare is a by and watched the reduction. coercive and oppressive system-the honourable member for Burrows, I am very sorry-whereas We want to help people move from social workfare is coercive and an oppressive system allowance to employment, but we recognize that which robs social assistance recipients of their this requires support. That is why we have put 4338 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999 forward amendments. We put forward amend­ their low-wage economic strategy, where a life ments, Mr. Acting Speaker, that this government on minimum wage for a number of families is voted against. We put amendments fo rward that also going to be a life on poverty. So to deal would require some of the programs that they with this, they have brought in workfare. They have reduced, for example, in education, to be have had to bring it in and then start reducing the replaced. We know that this government has the welfare payments. They cut the Student Social worst record in the country now on having Allowances Program, and now they are requiring people go to community college and graduate people to work without ensuring that those from community college, the lowest rates in the programs are in place. country of having high school graduates enter community colleges. We want to see that It is interesting to note that the initiative problem solved, and that would be one of the which was announced before the bill was solutions in helping put those kinds of supports targetting 16- and 17-year -old welfare recipients. in place. We know that we have some of the In 1994, the Tories changed the policy fo r longest waiting lists fo r entry into community noncompliant 16- and 17-year-old wards of colleges. Child and Family Services to simply put them on welfare with no supports. The number of Child So we requested that they would look to and Family Services wards on welfare falls at have some obligation as well, that as they are about 130. In '95, the Children's Advocate requiring people to have an obligation to look called for a fu ll review of services fo r 16- and fo r work and to work, that they have an 17-year-olds and repeated the call with the last obligation to put in place the kinds of programs report. This is a highly cynical move on their that people need, the kind of literacy programs, part, given that the same number of 16- and 17- the kind of education programs, the kinds of year-olds are the ones that they are now programs that are going to have them see a job at requiring to go back and take those programs the end of the process. So what did they do? that they eliminated. They voted down those programs and that amendment. This government has, as I said, * (2040) reduced the Access program, and now what they do is they try and stretch the funding. They are We also put in proposals to deal with the creaming the people who enter that program, the problem on addictions. There are waiting lists of people who do not have as great needs. They do 15 months at the Laurel Centre. There is a not provide as much support so that they can try waiting list fo r 200 at the St. Norbert centre, but and keep their statistics up. they voted down that amendment as well. They voted down our amendment. I want to reference But we also know that they cut the New that even Reverend Lehotsky said, referring to Careers program. That training program had a addictions treatment, there is concern expressed 93 percent job success rate. It was the envy of about that. Is it just the discretion of a worker the country, and that was ended by this govern­ who is grumpy on that day? We need a solid ment. They have reduced the payments for foster mechanism for determining who is really putting parents, and particularly punitive was the care themselves and the community at risk. Even for families who are taking into fo ster care a their own candidate has expressed concern about relative, and that has greatly affected aboriginal the bill under the area of addictions, the communities and northern residents. We know discretion that they are going to have. that in '96 when they first began their welfare workfare program that they reduced the social We put forward a similar amendment assistance benefitsby 21 percent. requiring supports and child care, recognizing that they have increased the subsidy cost per We know that one of the reasons that they child care, and the fact that there is a sore have gone to these measures is, as the minister lacking of before- and after-school child care in for social allowance has said a number of times, our province The reason I mention all of these that a life on welfare is a life in poverty. But is because of the way that the government dealt they also have created a situation in Manitoba by with all of these amendments, would hav� at July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4339 least given the chance that this program in this category. They want the programs that they legislation would work, and that is because they need, as well, to work, to move into the called these trivial. They called these tech­ workforce. They do not want to be labelled nicalities. The member for Rossmere (Mr. unemployable. A number of them have a lot of Toews) called these community supports that are skills. They need support so that they can get needed by these recipients so they can be into the workforce. successful in the workforce. They called them redundant. Those are the words they used to The bill, then, also has been criticized for describe the community supports that are having no clear definition of howthey are going essential for people to successfully move from to determine who has a disability and the fact welfare to work. that many people with serious disabilities have invisible disabilities, and, unfortunately, many We know that there are 12,000 more people people who are very capable of working and collecting social allowance under the watch of could go out and do a job exceptionally well this governmentthan when they first tookof fice. have very visible disabilities, and those are the We know that there is $42 million or more ones who could very easily be defined as owing to children in this province under the disabled by this government. It seems they have maintenance program. The Maintenance En­ no interest, though, in providing the kind of forcement Program only has a success rate of supports necessary for people with disabilities to just over 51 percent. We know that they are ensure that they can be successful in moving serious about addressing the increase in social from welfare to work. Their consultations are allowance reliance by a lot of those families. If afterthought, second thought, and we can see that is what they were to do, address those very well that in cobbling together this pre­ abysmal statistics. election bill that they really did not give very serious consideration to the damage that they are Mr. Acting Speaker, under the area of doing to the lives of people who are vulnerable, listening to the public, I would suggest that the who are disabled, who need different support so government was not paying attention at the that they can be successful in getting into the community hearings. I know that a number of workforce. the presenters said that they fe lt like they were not consulted. They were using people like Mr. Acting Speaker, we want to see a Theresa Swedick. She said: we are disap­ welfare-to-work program that is going to work. pointed with the speed in making and preparing We want to ensure, as did our amendments put this bill. Certainly it is not going to help the forward that they also defeated, that this disabled community. She said: workfare will be program is not going to displace people who are damaging to us because we have to have already working for wages that are above the interpreters. minimum wage, perhaps that are higher than the minimum wage. This government sees nothing We need to have other services provided. Are wrong with having people working 35 hours a they going to provide interpreter services? week for wages that are less than the minimum Probably not. Individuals who have an addic­ wage. tions problem need interpreters if they are deaf. Are they going to provide those services? Mr. Acting Speaker, the legislation is vague. Probably not. It gives a lot of permissibility to staff in the minister's department, and we can tell that this This is part of the consultative advice that bill is basically them searching to try and find a we would be giving to the Conservatives if they pre-election issue. I am pleased that the public, had consulted people with disabilities prior to as we have seen through the presentations, and cobbling together this bill, but, no, they chose we are not in support of the bill. not to do that. They chose not to listen to the Manitoba League of Persons with Disabilities Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education who said that people with disabilities do not and Training): Mr. Acting Speaker, when I necessarily want to be categorized as a separate was first elected to this House in 1986, I came 4340 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999 here with a vision and a mission, if you like, to the people of Brandon West, and they do not do everything I could to work with my expect me to support this kind of thinking. colleagues, all my colleagues in this House, to Indeed, I have before me a resolution which I help prepare for a better Manitoba fo r future understand was debated and carried at a New generations. Democratic Party convention. I am sorry to say it was sponsored by the constituency of Brandon I came here not to support dependence in East, but I assume the NDP part of that our society but self-reliance. I came here not to particular constituency, and it calls fo r various support despondency but to support confidence. things we have been hearing about tonight from I came here not to promote sadness in our honourable members opposite, all of which point society but to bring about well-being in our to hopelessness, despondency, dependency, envy population, happiness in our population. I did and all of those things that I have spoken of a not come here to promote and support envy. I moment ago. One of the things that is contained came here, Mr. Acting Speaker, to help promote in that resolution is the fo llowing: the right, and self-worth in our population. I did not come I apologize fo r the split infinitive but it is not here to help bring about a sense of hopelessness mine, the right to not have to participate in work in Manitobans but to promote hope, to support or training programs, i.e., workfare, in order to and stand up fo r freedom and to work toward a receive social assistance. Then it says, BE IT sense of joyous anticipation fo r the children of FURTHER RESOLVED that when the this province and fo r the people of this province. Manitoba NDP fo rms the next provincial government of Manitoba, legislation enshrining There is a very wise person in Manitoba the aforementioned standards fo r social pro­ who once said our social safety net is a net, not a grams be introduced. hammock, and there are people in this Chamber who want to continue to promote that So, Mr. Acting Speaker, I think we know dependency amongst the population in this what we can expect from honourable members country and in this province. Everybody knows in terms of their position as they put it before the what this bill says; everybody knows what it people in the next election in Manitoba. We does not say. What we have been hearing is a have also heard plenty of evidence of it here in lot of rhetoric, certainly fr om one side of this this House. I know also that, when I sought the House, Mr. Acting Speaker, and I think that nomination fo r my party in 1985, I remember honourable members on this side of the House speaking about competency, about caring and who support this bill and who support what it businesslike approaches being taken to the stands for will prevail in this debate. The people running of government in our province. Notice who promote hopelessness and dependency in in this sense the emphasis on caring. People, our population, I hope, will fa il, and I hope they those who are able, ought to be able to look out will ultimately see the error of their ways and fo r themselves and government ought to get out join with the rest of Manitobans who are looking of their way and make life bearable fo r people. fo r a bright future and not for one which is one But governments tend to make life very of spawned dependency. I say "spawned" unbearable fo r people and very overburdening, because I have a sense that there are some because when you adopt the philosophy, the politicians in this province who have a crumbs philosophy I mentioned a fe w minutes philosophy that, if you create dependence in the ago, you create that envy in people, you fo ster people and you get certain politicians elected, that dependence in people, and you make them then as long as those politicians find a few less people than they really ought to be. crumbs to throw to the masses you can somehow make them grateful for those crumbs. The Creator has expected people to thrive, people to make something of their lives. Those * (2050) who are able to should work. Those who are not able to have every right to look to their fri ends Mr. Acting Speaker, crumbs are not good and neighbours and society to look out fo r them. enough for me. Crumbs are not good enough fo r That is our duty as caring individuals and a my children. Crumbs are not good enough fo r caring society. But to stand up and to make a July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4341 case that you ought not to have to work for I think it is appropriate as we stand here welfare if you are able bodied, the people of this today, as we enter the new millennium, to reflect province simply do not agree with that, and that it is only in a very short number of anybody who thinks otherwise is living on some generations that we have fundamentally changed other planet and certainly not in the province of Manitoba's society. You know, a hundred years Manitoba. ago members of this Legislature in the previous Legislative Building looked at a very different So, on behalf of my constituents, who fe el society. In those days people would work for 70 strongly about working against cradle to grave hours a week. People lived in terrible conditions. dependence and despondency and envy and all There was no public education for many people. of those baser instincts that we have unfortu­ In fact, 30 percent of children under the age of nately in humankind, the people of Brandon 15 did not attend school. We call that child West expect me to stand on my feet to support labour today. In those days there was no Bill 40 and to support self-reliance, confidence medicare. In fact in those days, in fact as late as and a well-being and a sense of self-worth in the the Second World War, 30 percent of people people of this province. After all, much of the who applied to fight in the war were rejected for groundwork has been laid fo r people to take up medical grounds. the opportunities that have been made available, not only with the help of the Creator but also Madam Speaker in the Chair with the help of the wealth generators, the job creators in this province as well as this particular In terms of democracy, in those days, in government that has been in office here. But I 1899 there was not a single member of the am sorry to say there are some politicians in this Legislature that had the kind of vision that this province who see it in quite another way, and I party has, although I might add that the first am sure that the people of Manitoba-! know labour representative was elected the following they will-will have the wisdom to know the year. But you know, it is not surprising, given difference and to know what is good for the the fact in the city of Winnipeg with 100,000 future generations of Manitobans. people, only 7,300 people were eligible to vote. Women were not eligible to vote. Aboriginal I urge all honourable members to vote fo r people were not eligible to vote. What dramatic Bill 40. Those who are intent on doing so, change we have seen, and it comes from a vision congratulations. Those who have other thoughts of a social society. in mind, I ask them to think about it long and hard before they continue along the path of I findit amazing that members opposite,you creating a society of dependency. I simply will know, as soon as they heard the word "social" not support that. the only thing they could do was attach the term "socialist." But whether people were socialists Mr. Ashton: Mr. Acting Speaker, I am very or social democrats or had a vision of social eco­ pleased to be able to speak on this bill today. I nomic justice at the beginning of this century, it had the opportunity to sit in most of the has been a remarkable century because, by and committee hearings, and I will say that I was large, we have achieved it in this province. We very moved by many of the presenters who now in this province, despite all our showed a lot of courage to come before this shortcomings in this great country of Canada, Legislature and committee and present in the because of those who had that vision, now have face of a hostile government in its dying days, a according to the United Nations the best quality government desperate for a political issue, a of life, and a lot of it, I might add, is because of government after 11 years that has put in this our commitment to health and education, the legislation, legislation that I believe not only is social aspects. not good legislation but legislation that shows some of the big differences between members Fundamentally the vtston that we put opposite and members on this side when it forward for a society was the fact that we are far comes to understanding the reality of what stronger as a society as a whole when we support drives our society in Manitoba. each other than as individual components. One 4342 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July I4, I999 of the things that has dramatically changed in their vision accomplished? There are I2,000 this century is the way in which we deal with more people on welfare than in 1988. There is those who are poor and those who are only one welfare party in this Legislature. It is disadvantaged. One hundred years ago, to quote the Conservative Party that has cut every a political philosopher that probably sums up the imaginable education and training program and political philosophy across the way, life was assistance program to get people from welfare to nasty, brutish and short fo r many poor people work. Let us not kid anybody in this Legislature. without health care, without education. In terms They cut Access; they cut New Careers; they of working conditions, the people in this have cut apprenticeship programs; they have cut Chamber may not realize but on a one-mile the Student Social Allowances Program. I have stretch of the Hudson Bay rail line there are 50 seen people in my own constituency. You know unmarked graves. That is what the working what they did? They went from school to conditions were like in those days. welfare under this government because they cut the Student Social Allowances Program. But you know throughout this century we * (2 100) have built on that. We have established many social safety nets in this province, and we have I want to say. Madam Speaker, I have seen also understood if you work with the poor, you them twist and tum on this issue in terms of their work with the disadvantaged, that you can have characterization of us. I was kind of glad in a a much better society in terms of employment. way that members opposite, if we did not vote against this bill, we were betraying our I say to members opposite what they are principles. Well, what do they expect after they doing now on this legislation fo r their own rejected every last one of our 12 amendments, political purposes threatens that very society. when they have a bill that is a one-way street, a We may take credit on this side, but until bill that says to somebody such as the people in recently there was I believe a broad consensus my constituency who are unemployed? on many of those issues in the province of Manitoba. I say to members opposite by picking I will give the example of Thicket Portage, on the poor, as they are doing in this case, what or Pikwitonei in the committee. I invite members they are doing is they are going back to a time to visit that community. A generation ago every­ gone by, a time gone by in which the deaf and body was employed. I tell you the grandparents the disabled and others suffered immensely in worked 35 years in CN; the parents were laid off this province, were never given opportunities. after 15 years; and the kids and young adults today have no job opportunities, no education I want to say to members opposite, despite opportunities because of the neglect of this our philosophical differences, of all of the government. They did not choose what has legislation I have seen from this government in happened to the trapping industry with the these II years, this is about the lowest. This is antifur lobby in Europe. They did not choose the lowest that I have seen this government what has happened in terms of fishing and stoop for political purposes. declining prices, which has not been made any better by this government with the freight An Honourable Member: You mean lower assistance. If they are unemployed today, and than MTS? many are seasonably employed, and they have to deal now with the cuts from the Liberal govern­ Mr. Ashton: Even lower than MTS, because in ment fe derally in terms of unemployment MTS they may not have told the truth, Madam insurance, it is not by choice. It is by circum­ Speaker, but you know they are setting up a stance. I tell you they want to work. They want situation where in this election they are going to to work in the same way the presenters before try and run against the victims. They are going the committee want to work, the courageous to try and victimize the victims in this province. deaf community, 83 percent unemployment.

Let us get it straight right now in this I999. I say to members opposite, when there are After II years of Tory government, what has I7,300 people who are considered employable July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4343 on the list, this legislation just shows how out of image, of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. touch the government is. The reason there are Doer) in his ad campaigns and in his new dress more people today on welfare than 11 years ago and his new manner, the pin-striped suits and the is because this government has forgotten what new image of the new NDP or today's NDP. I used to be a consensus but is still the principle was becoming quite hopeful that the "me too" espoused by this government. It is a view of attitude of the New Democrats might continue society as being a social organism; it is a view of and they might agree to support legislation society that views social and economic justice which, I think, just fo llows along with the coming from the recognition of two things: that legislative changes that we made back in 1996 we need to give people opportunities, but that we where we brought in welfare reform andenabled also need to work with them to make sure they us to take over the City of Winnipeg's welfare can maximize those opportunities. I say to caseload and amalgamate that to a one-tier members opposite who seem to take some glee system. in us opposing this biii-I am sure they have their campaign ads lined up. It is actually Mike­ I know the members of the opposition, when Harris-like here. I want to say this is Manitoba. that bill was presented, certainly voted against it, We have a proud tradition in this province of a spoke against it, and I think probably put a lot of hundred years of building a better province with the same comments on the record, the fear­ that social vision. I want to say to members mongering on the record back in 1996 that they opposite: Mike Harris politics is not going to put on the record again during the debate on this work in Manitoba because the people of piece of legislation, although they have only just Manitoba know better. now begun to debate it, because they were not quite sure what they would do when the Our position as a party is clear. Unlike the legislation was introduced. I think it has become Conservative Party, we will not fight an election very clear over the last 24 hours maybe, must on the backs of the poor, the deaf and the have been decided in the deep, dark halls of the disadvantaged in society. We will speak fo r New Democratic caucus last night. what needs to be spoken for: in this case, work, not this trumped-together workfare, but work Anyway, Madam Speaker, I do want to go and opportunities. This government with 12,000 back and put on the record a bit of history of more people on welfare has been an abject why we are here today debating this bill tonight. failure. It is time for a party that will put people I became the Minister of Family Services back to work, the New Democratic Party that will some, I think it is over six years now. provide the supports and the real opportunities for the unemployed and the disadvantaged in our society just in keeping with our vision. An Honourable Member: Six short years.

I say to members opposite: our vision is Mrs. Mitchelson: Six short years. Sometimes intact, and our vision is the vision we are going it seems very short when I look back. It has to be taking to the people of Manitoba. I have been a long time. In the history of our province, every confidence that they will elect a New I am not sure there has been a Minister of Democratic government and throw out this Family Services in place for six years; governmentafter 11 years of failure. nonetheless, Madam Speaker, the reason we brought welfare reform and changes to Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family legislation back in 1996 was because I had the Services): Madam Speaker, I am certainly opportunity to speak to many Manitobans who pleased to see the fire back in the belly of the were on social assistance, on welfare, and the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton). I thought policy at that time, a policy that was in place that they had almost died and gone to heaven, or under the New Democratic government and I am not sure to heaven, over the last fe w weeks continued for a few years under our government, because I think they have been in quite a was a policy that said to single parents: we dilemma. They are in quite a dilemma because consider you, we label you unemployable, and we have seen the new image, the new Tory-blue you can stay on welfare until your youngest 4344 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999 child turns 18, and then we expect you to go out their minds that they do not believe in the kinds and get a job. of principles that we have put in this second piece of legislation, which fo llows up from Madam Speaker, there were many, many 1996. I have heard the opposition comment older women whose children were 18 who had about the timing of this legislation. Well, I want no self-esteem, no skills, no ability to enter the to say that our first welfare reform bill was workforce, and they were expected to go out and brought in back in 1996 after a provincial get a job. That is extremely unfair to the women election. So it was not just before. It was not in our province and our communities who have just to gain support from the electorate, but it been committed to a life of poverty on welfare was the right thing to do fo r the right reason. and cannot or would not have the ability to move And the reason we are making changes again fo rward to move into the workforce. I fe lt at that today is because we now have the ability with point in time that I wanted to see more for the the one-tier system in the City of Winnipeg that women of Manitoba than a life of poverty on was just implemented this year to move forward welfare. So we started to look at our welfare and ensure and focus. system and started to look at what kinds of changes needed to be made in order to ensure What the opposition have neglected to talk that people had an opportunity to move fo rward, about in their comments-they have talked all to move out of a life of dependency. So at that around the issues, but they have not talked about point in time, back in 1996, we brought in the main focus of this legislation, and that main legislation that changed that. We brought in focus is on those 500 single, able-bodied people legislation that said: once your child turns six or per month that walk into our welfare offices and is in school full time, you are expected to find say: give me welfare. We have a government employment. So women, when they have a that has put in place economic policies and family and become single parents, should start to balanced our budget and had the private sector think about how they are going to move fo rward come to Manitoba and create jobs, and there is into a life of independence, not a life of no reason fo r 500 single, able-bodied individuals dependence. every month to walk into a welfare office and say: give me something. It is time that we said We looked at amalgamating the City of to them: there are jobs out there begging for Winnipeg's caseload to reduce the overlap and people to come to work. Every main thorough­ the duplication and to try to ensure that we had fare that you drive down today has job programs that were consistent, that people did opportunities, help wanted signs. There is no not have to move, enter the welfare on a city reason those able-bodied, single individuals caseload, become disabled, and then have to should not be out looking for jobs. The only move over to the provincial caseload. If their reason they might think that they should be able disability was only temporary and they had the to choose welfare over a job is because of the ability then to go back to work, we would move policies that the NDP has articulated over the them back to the City of Winnipeg's caseload. I years. mean, it did not seem to make sense to individuals to have to go through that kind of We see policies and resolutions that the New activity. We wanted a streamlined program that Democratic Party has brought forward that does would, in fact, ensure that we were not wasting not provide any incentive for those single, able­ time administratively and not serving the clients. bodied people to go out and get jobs, to take some personal responsibility fo r their own lives, * (2110) and to remove the burden from the taxpayers of Manitoba of some of those that believe that they I know the opposition did not support that deserve to get welfare, that they do not have to first phase of welfare reform, and I would work because the New Democratic Party says imagine tonight they are not going to support the that they have a right to welfare, and they have a second phase. I think from their comments that right to choose what they want to do. Even if they have made over the last few days in both there is a job there that they are qualified for, if committee and tonight that they have made up they decide they do not want to work, they do July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4345 not have to. That is the difference between them government'sjob, it is not our job, to create jobs and us. We believe in personal responsibility. for individuals. We create the economic climate, We believe that people have an obligation to Madam Speaker, and the private sector creates themselves and to their community to contribute the jobs. That is why we have jobs wanting for something back, that something that seems to be individuals today, and the New Democrats missing in the New Democratic Party. would rather say keep people on welfare; give them the right to stay on welfare; they do not We know it is missing, and we know that all have to work. That is the difference between of their comments have focused on the disabled them and us. people in our community who are not impacted by this legislation. Madam Speaker, I have Madam Speaker, they talk about a piece of heard many comments about the deaf com­ legislation that was cobbled together. Well, I munity and disability. I want my honourable have to say that we have been working on fr iends across the way to remember that the welfare reform since 1996. We brought in policies that are in place for disabled welfare legislation which the New Democratic Party did recipients are the same policies that were in not support at the time, and, again, we see today place when the New Democratic Party was in that they are the same old New Democratic Party government. They have not changed. They are with a new face and a Tory-blue Leader that the same policies for identification of disabled talks about different times and different ways individuals under our welfare system as were in today. But most Manitobans will understand place when they were government. So let them and will know that there is a difference. There is not lead Manitobans to believe that we have a difference between a New Democratic Party, done anything diffe rent policy-wise than what whether it be today's, tomorrow's or yesterday's, they did. that brings resolutions to this Legislature, passes resolutions at their annual meetings that talk The only difference is that when the NDP about welfare being a right and no one should were in governmentthere was no special rate for have to work or contribute to the community in the disabled. They treated disabled people like order to receive welfare assistance. employable people. We were the government that brought in an income supplement for the I think it says it all when we look at a disabled category on welfare. Before we came resolution from Brandon East, from members of to power, Madam Speaker, there was nothing the New Democratic Party, that says many there for the disabled. They gave them nothing. WHEREASes, and one of the rights that They talk a good line, but, in fact, they do individuals should have is the right not to have nothing when they are in government. It is fine to participate in work or training programs, i.e., to be able to talk in opposition about what they workfare, in order to receive social assistance; would do, but history tells us what they did do and BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that when when they were there. They talk now about the Manitoba NDP forms the next provincial being a soft and sensitive and caring government government of Manitoba, legislation enshrining when they come in, and they will give everyone the aforementioned standards for social everything that they ask for and people do not programs be introduced. That is the old New have to give anything back in exchange. I find it Democratic Party. That is the new New Demo­ absolutely despicable. cratic Party. That is yesterday's New Democratic Party, and that is today's New Democratic Party. When I look at some of the comments that were made-I mean, I listened to the member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford) saying in committee, Madam Speaker, I think that we as a and I just have to find my quote because I could Conservative government have more hope fo r not believe my ears. She said how much money Manitobans. We know that the kinds of programs is in your budget for job creation? I have to say and the kinds of obligations that will be placed back to her that there is no money fo r job on individuals who are able bodied that should creation because the private sector creates the be contributing to our community will happen jobs under a Conservative government. It is not under this governmentand under this legislation. 4346 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July I4, I999

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): I, too, would replacement or displacement of individuals that like to, on behalf of the Liberal Party, put a are currently receiving money in some form is a number of words on the record. If I can in valid concern which this bill neglects. essence quote the Leader of our party: It is time Availability of treatment programs is again a to change our welfare system, but it is difficult valid concern that has been expressed. The to support Bill 40 which brings in workfare question in terms of appeal mechanisms again without a more comprehensive review of the raises serious doubts in regard to the viability of whole welfare system. this particular bill. The ability to allow for individuals to do job searching questions the Madam Speaker, I believe Liberals, in fact validity of this particular bill. Putting at concept the majority of my constituents, support welfare the risk of workfare is the way in which we see reform, and workfare is a part of that reform this government approaching this very important process, but when I vote fo r legislation I need to issue in which we all recognize is necessary. have the confidence that changes needed will in We do distinguish ourselves with respect to the fact be made. I have little confidence that this in New Democrats who do not believe in the fact would happen. Again, in quoting my concept. Leader: Bill 40 is a simplistic shotgun approach to welfare reform. The Conservative govern­ With those fe w words, I wiii indicate that ment had I I years to bring a bill like this we will in fact be voting against Bill 40. forward. They waited until the eve of an election and then tabled a poorly designed bill. The Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): concept of workfare- want to make a fe w comments about Bill 40. The member for Inkster has just stated that their * (2 120) party understands, as we do, that this last­ minute, cynical, pre-election bill is not, Point of Order regrettably, worthy of support. We knew, when we read the bill two weeks ago now that this bill Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House provides all the authorities to deal with so-called Leader): I believe Beauchesne allows members workfare to the cabinet of the day. In fact, if this to use notes to deliver a speech, but I just was another bill dealing with another matter wonder if the member qualifies using notes fo r where everything is subject to regulation, his speech. everything that is dealing with the matter of welfare and social assistance is subject to cabinet Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honour­ agreement, why would we even need to bring a able member for Inkster, on the same point of bill into this Legislature? To take away this order. legislative authority and responsibility and delegate it to people in cabinet, I think, is a huge Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I sat and I abdication of our legislative responsibility. listened to a number of speeches, and I can assure you that members on both sides of this When members opposite say, oh, you know, House actually took the liberty to specifically you did not know which way your were going to quote other aspects. That is all I was doing is go, we knew I 0 days ago that this biii needed making some very specific quotes. I would ask radical amendments because there had not been that the government House leader respect that. any real work except, the governmentby regula­ tion may do this, the government by regulation Madam Speaker: Order, please. I thank the may do that, the government by regulation may honourable government House leader. He has do something else. I mean, this is the withdrawn his point of order. government-by-regulation bill. Maybe we need truthfare, not workfare in terms of legislative * * * changes around here, Madam Speaker.

Mr. Lamoureux: In terms of the concept in They think it is a political tactic. They have which we do support the concerns in regard to got their Republican consultants and they have July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4347 watched what Mike Harris did and afterthey did This is not a bill that provides people that are not have the courage to call the election. They expert in addiction counselling at the Alcohol then had to refigure and reposition themselves, Foundation the ability to deal with when a and so they looked at the polls that the taxpayers person needs intervention, when that inter­ had paid for that said they were weak on the vention should have consequences to it, con­ number of civil servants and they were weak on ceivably consequences that have a stick to it that the number of people on social assistance. So would potentially push somebody into that they had to reposition themselves, but instead of intervention to get the kind of treatment they going out and consulting the people that are need so they could get off social assistance. most directly affected, people that are deaf, This is not a bill that provides any resources at people that are disabled, people that are most all for parents and parenting programs. vulnerable, as any government with any con­ science left would do-and this government is Look at the literacy programs they have cut. heartless, with no conscience, there is no This is not a bill at all that provides for leamfare. question about that, it is a heartless Premier and I mean, how can people opposite keep a straight a heartless government that only cares about the face after they cut student social allowance to workfare fo r its own members, not the workfare put 1,200 people on welfare? You know, 1,200 fo r Manitoba citizens that are more vulnerable­ people go on welfare in 1993-94, and they now they would have consulted the people most come back with leamfare. Well, we need directly. truthfare, Madam Speaker, because they should never, never have cut students social allowance Now, Judge Monnin said on page 16: I have here in Manitoba. never encountered more liars in all my experience on the bench. Yesterday I heard the * (2130) Premier, driving from one meeting to another, in answer to a question: well, did you consult with Now, we represent a lot of working people these people before you brought in this bill? Oh, in a lot of ridings. Yes, there is no question at yes, we consulted with these people before we all that people in communities that are working brought in the bill. Pinocchio Premier says it hard, putting in an honest day's work, trying to again. It was almost two years to the day of the raise their families, under lots of pressure, do not Atlanta Olympics when he said, oh, the Pan Am want anybody in their community that is able Games is paying for my hotel room, and we bodied and able to work not to work. I have no found out later from Frank McKenna that it was difficulty saying that I have run life skills IBM. Well, we have the transcript. I heard you programs before as a volunteer 20 years ago yesterday. where a carrot, the life skills program, and a stick, the consequences of not taking jobs that Now, what did the Minister of Family are available, are utilized as part of a way to get Services say a week ago directly to a person who people off of welfare and into work. I have no was deaf at the committee dealing with consulta­ difficulty with that concept. Members on this tion? Well, we did not have time to consult with side have no difficulty with it because we were you now. We will consult with you in the fall. the first ones in Canada that took money from Well, why is the bill not coming in in the fall? If the social assistance budget and put it into the the governmentwants to bring in a bill in the fa ll Dutch Elm Disease Control Program and got after they consult with people and then the people off welfare, and many of them are still people who are most directly affected and most working today. They are still working today. I vulnerable have dealt with it, so be it. have run into many of those people who said: I worked in the municipal programs on Dutch Madam Speaker, that is where again the elm. government clips and cuts and Order-in-Council; clip and cut and Order-in-Council. This is not a So why not take this challenge on? Now, bill that provides the resources to get people off the member opposite said, well, there is no of welfare. This is not a bill that provides the money in the budget for job creation, because we resources for people to get addiction counselling. believe in the private sector. What did the 4348 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999

Canadian Federation of Independent Business way by drafting a number of amendments. We say? You got $45 million in corporate welfare even shared those amendments, many of those grants in there, did they not say that? They got amendments, with the government a day ahead Shamray that lost $4.5 million in there. The of time. We shared them with the government members opposite gave $60 million to the Jets, ahead of time because we thought they had but Barry Shenkarow was not on welfare, I merit. Rather than giving cabinet the unilateral guess. They paid for Keith Tkachuk's salary of authority, we moved an amendment to provide $7 million, but they want to cut somebody off for addiction services. We moved an amendment that is deaf. That is the hypocrisy of members to provide fo r community services. We dealt opposite. Cut the deaf people off and give Keith with The Workplace Safety and Health Act for Tkachuk $7 million. That is the privileged Tory people. administration. You know, the members opposite say, well, Madam Speaker, we moved a number of you do not need that amendment. What about amendments at second reading. You know, the those three people on workfare training pro­ member talks about the disabled community. grams? They are not covered under Workers This is the Premier that had to fight the disabled Compensation now. Are they covered? Shall community in the snow and in the communities we have another case like that? Is that what you when he tried to privatize and Americanize want? You want all kinds of people hurt under a home care, when he tried to privatize and community services program without any Work­ Americanize home care. He had the disabled place Safe ty and Health? Do we want to have community united against his government. So inspection and investigation after investigation? why now should the disabled community give Let us put the amendment in the act now. Why him an axe to cut them off, along with his not put it in now? But, of course, the members Minister of Family Services? Why should he opposite say no. give him the axe? I would not give that Premier the axe under Order-in-Council to cut off the Madam Speaker, there is a real skill and disabled ever, and that is why this legislation expertise involved in alcoholism and depen­ should be defeated. dency. I have done life skills programs before as a volunteer a long time ago to try to train people When we had an opportunity to listen to to get up in the morning to go to work. I have a Angela, who is a deaf person who raised these little bit of that experience. I have no experience issues with the minister last week, when we have in dealing in any capacity as a volunteer on to listen to people in the deaf community, we alcoholism, but I have talked to some people have heard from people in our own department since this bill was drafted. The people that I that Angela's interpretation of who is covered have talked to who are professionals, who work under the disabled and who is not is correct. The fo r us, tell us it is a really fine line between deaf people are not covered. We will listen to when an intervention can be effective and Angela over Gary and Bonnie any day of the includes an intervention with consequences, both week. There is no question in our minds who to fam ily consequences and work consequences listen to. and welfare consequences, versus when those interventions cannot be effective. They say to Now, the Tories have been saying, oh, we me that if you do not have the expertise to make are going to have a tough time on this bill. All those decisions at the right time, you can drive of us should have a tough time on this bill, somebody right over the edge at the wrong time, because these are real people. I know we are and all you are going to do is increase fam ily going to fight an election campaign. I know you breakdown and increase the homelessness in this want to have a fe w political clubs to deal with, province if you do not use the proper people. and that is fine, and we can fight that campaign, but there are real people that you are affecting here. There is more than just the simple, little Why not support the Addictions Foun­ Republican wedge issues beyond this legislation. dation? Why not have more people in com­ We tried then to work in a fairly co-operative munity agencies, in Pritchard House and other July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4349 agencies involved in providing the hand up? It government. The economy is [interjection] See, is not just members of this cabinet who will that is the problem. You have lost it. You allegedly provide a hand up, those who some cannot be objective anymore. The Premier (Mr. people have argued have been the ones who have Filmon) cannot be objective anymore. The kicked people in the teeth. Why not let the numbers are there. Just read the annual reports. Alcohol Foundation be involved in giving people a hand up, who are involved in alcohol * (21 40) programs, Madam Speaker, again, a positive amendment. We believe that our amendments would have improved this bill. We believe that working Madam Speaker, we believe that our amend­ people want their neighbours who are on social ments would deal with the issue of workfare that assistance that are able bodied and can work to cuts off everybody, including people who are have work opportunities. We are going to disabled, people who are deaf, people who are continue to move amendments that give people single parents and others-some programs of opportunities. The only people who have more workfare cut off almost everybody-versus the power and more opportunities under this bill is issue that we all agree on, people who are the Filmon cabinet, by regulation, by regulation. employable should work. People who are on We are going to enforce the maintenance social assistance who are employable should provisions of government, so some of the people work. who are denied proper maintenance payments can get off social assistance. We are going to We have no difficulty in saying in our get decent child care, as recommended by the amendment that work is a social responsibility, Chamber of Commerce, so people can get off Madam Speaker, but we are not going to vote for social assistance. a bill that cuts off the deaf. We mentioned Theresa, and I have a brief from one David We are going to reinstate students social Martin representing the Manitoba League of allowance and the 1,200 people that this Premier Persons with Disabilities. This is a person who put on welfare, get them off welfare with decent was just told the day that the bill was going to be education and training programs. We are going presented that they would be consulted long after to have addictions programs that have the the bill was passed, and he said: "Threatening professionals in the Alcohol Foundation helping people with a life on the street and starvation us give people a hand up, not this kind of cabinet seems untenable in a society like Canada." fiat that we see fr om members opposite, and we are going to make sure the disabled community Madam Speaker, we fe ar that some people has hope and opportunity, not a kick in the teeth. with disabilities may be affected by the measures That is why we are voting against this bill. forcing people to work and to attend these Thank you very much. programs. Why did the government not stop, look and listen to people with disabilities? Why Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam Speaker, is it repeating the same mistakes as it did with I am pleased to be able to add some comments the privatization of home care? Why is the on Bill 40, and I will attempt to be brief. I political timetable of this government more certainly do not think that I can match the important than the hopes and dreams of people bombast of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. who want to get off of social assistance? Doer). We can always tell when he is fe eling harassed and under great stress because he raises So there are 12,000 more people on welfare the level of his rhetoric louder and louder and today than there were when the government was louder to the point that he attempts to drown out elected. Having said that, there were more any possibility of anybody thinking. people at the end of '88 than there were in '81, and the welfare rates went up in the '80s and it The member opposite talked about truthfare, went down in the latter part of the '80s. The and I suspect that if such a policy were in place welfare went way up in the early '90s, and it has there would not be too many members opposite come down in the last three or four years in this sitting in the House. He comes forward with the 4350 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999 proposition, for instance, that the numbers of the real position of the New Democratic Party. caseloads on welfare dropped in the late '80s, That is fighting your election on the backs of the presumably under the wonderful policies of his poor, I tell you, ladies and gentlemen. That is administration. His administration, of course, precisely the position that the New Democrats was that of the Pawley-Doer government that have lived in this Legislature as long as they tripled the net debt of our province in just six have been campaigning in this province. and a half years and that spent over $200 million attempting to stimulate the economy with the So, with that initial move which moved us short-term, make-work Jobs Fund of which not up to the higher echelon of welfare payments in one job exists today here in our province from the country, we became the magnet in this that effort, and then out of desperation built the province fo r people who wanted to live on Limestone Generating Station two years ahead welfare. They could come here and be better off of when we had a contract to sell the electricity, on welfare than they could anywhere else in Madam Speaker, for the sole purpose of trying to western Canada. They came. They came from create employment desperately to get them Ontario, and they came from all over the West. elected again in 1986. That is the reason why the welfare rates continued to grow throughout the NDP period of But, despite all of that, the welfare rolls time. Their culture of dependency, their commit­ continued to go up and up and up, year afteryear ment to keeping people dependent, because they after year. As a matter of fact, beginning with knew that as long as they kept more people one of the very first moves of the Pawley dependent on government that they could go government, welfare went on a constant rise that forth and, 10 times out of 10, they could win the went throughout the '80s and well into the '90s vote by saying: we will always give you more; until we brought in welfare reform in the mid­ we will always give you more. '90s. That is precisely what has happened in this I will begin that saga with the news release province, until our government had the courage that was issued by the Honourable Len Evans, at to examine the policies on welfare and to create that time Minister of Community Services and incentives for people to break the cycle of Corrections, on December 17, 1981. Now the dependency, to break that continuous cycle of significance of that is 17 days after the taking of dependency that resulted in through good times office of the Pawley administration, their first and bad times, through strong economy, weak major move was a 16.5 percent increase in economy, through recession, through expansion, welfare rates in the province. Well, that was increases in the numbers of people on welfare in their way of demonstrating that if anybody ever this province. I have the facts and the figures doubted that they believed in and were totally here fo r the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. committed to welfare as a way of life in this Doer), not the dreams and the nightmares that he province, they were going to show unequivo­ tries to portray about what happened under his cally to the province and its people that if you government. want welfare, if you want dependency, we are the best people to deliver. That is the New Under his government, beginning with Democratic position, always has been and 22,805 people on welfare in 1980-81, it went up always will be that dependency is their fund­ by 1987-88 to 33,359, and it continued to go up amental building block. and up and up and up. Only in 1995 did it begin to come down because of the welfare reforms When they talk about fighting an election on which we initiated. It has come down; 18,000 the backs of the poor, that is precisely the people have been taken offwelf are and into jobs position that they take. They go to the doors of since we began the welfare reform. the poorest people, the most disadvantaged people in this province, and they say: you can His caucus continues to believe that people count on us to give you more, as long as you have the right, the unfettered right, to collect stay on the public trough, than you will ever get welfare. That is the difference between his party from any other party running for office. That is and our party, Madam Speaker. July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4351

Here we have a cutout of the newspaper, this what they believe in. That is what they stand one happens to be January 21, 1998, but it ran for, a culture of dependency. throughout the course of last year in community newspapers and in the Winnipeg Free Press, a I want to tell you that most Manitobans, big block ad by the member for Wolseley (Ms. including many who go through difficult times Friesen): welfare rights meeting. Come to the and have to fo r a period of time be on social multipurpose room upstairs at Magnus Eliason allowances, do not believe in that. They believe recreation centre on Langside Street. And who that they want to go to work. They believe in is going to be there but the member for Wolseley self-reliance. They believe in personal respon­ and Mel Holley of the fam ily law centre to do sibility. They believe that they can contribute to what, to give people information on how they the economy and that they want to, not by can better exercise their rights to welfare in this staying on welfare. What do the New Demo­ province? That is the culture that they want to crats say? They say: you can stay on welfare perpetrate; that is the culture that they stand for. and nobody can stop you. We are going to protect that right, and it does not matter whether * (2 150) you are able bodied; it does not matter whether you are capable of working. I have to tell you that the one thing that I am quite confident about, having gone throughout Look around. I have had so many people in the province and listened to many people, I am the course of the last six months say they have telling you that I am not just listening to people never seen so much construction and develop­ in my area of the province, I am listening to ment activity in this city, in this province, never people everywhere. What do I hear from them? in the history of the province. They look and I hear from people who are struggling to make a they say on every major thoroughfare in this living, who are the working poor. They say: do city, you go down Pembina Highway, you go you know what the NDP want to do? They want down Henderson Highway, you go down to take my hard-earned tax dollars that I struggle Corydon, you go down Portage A venue, what and sweat away for, and they want to give it to does it say? Now hiring, help wanted every­ people who do not want to work, who are able where. There are jobs; there are opportunities. bodied, capable of working and do not want to You read the newspapers, what does it say? work, and they want to take my money and give There are opportunities like there have never it to them. That is what they say. been before in the history of this province. There are more people working here today than I hear the blue collar people whom the ever in the history of this province. They earned member suggests that he represents, the union last year $14 billion in wages and salaries, and members, and they come to me and they say: yet there are thousands of jobs going begging. you are right on. There are people who are on Yet the New Democrats say: those people who welfare who are able bodied and should be are able bodied, who are capable of taking the working and refuse to work. Why are they able jobs, should not be required to take the jobs. to do that? Why? Because members opposite tell them that. They hold seminars to tell them Madam Speaker, I do not have to make my they do not have to work and to explain their case here in this Legislature to those people rights to them. And it is not their party; in this whose minds are absolutely closed. I do not have case, they cannot dodge the bullet because this to make my case here. I will make my case to was the 1997 annual general meeting, and the the people of this province who believe in the resolution was presented on behalf of the caucus dignity of work. The people in this province by the member fo r Burrows (Mr. Martindale). believe in the dignity of work. They believe in He says this is what they are passing: the right self-reliance. They believe in contributing to the to a level of assistance adequate to meet one's future growth of this province by their efforts. needs; the right to appeal decisions which limit They do not believe, as New Democrats do, that or deny assistance; and the right not to have to people should be allowed not to work for participate in work or training programs, i.e., welfare and should be encouraged, indeed workfare, in order to receive assistance. That is explained to them how they can exercise their 4352 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999

rights and hold seminars so that they do not have days, 50 years ago, I 00 years ago. That is where to work and they may remain on welfare. their policies are. That is where their headspace Madam Speaker, that is the difference between is. That is where their principles are, is I 00 us and the New Democrats. That is what I find years ago. They have no idea what is happening is deeply and profoundly offensive, to use a term today, they are so out of touch. that was used by the member fo r Crescentwood (Mr. Sale), is that they want to go contrary to the What is happening today is that the people values that have built this province strong. who are in those unions are saying to us those people who are able bodied should not be on The waves and waves of immigrants who welfare, and they are saying to us you are doing came to this province, our First Nations people the right thing. Union members support this bill, believed in working, believed in working and because they say the policies that allow people supporting their fam ilies. We were just at a to be on welfare are victimizing the working reception hours ago at which there were poor, victimizing the hardworking union people members of our Sikh community, and a number who are the workers of this province because of them came up to me and said you are right on, then their taxes are taken away to pay for these that is what we need, is the people who are able people. bodied to work, take the opportunities that are there. That is the fundamental, bedrock value of Madam Speaker, I tell you that the member this province. It is the basis on which this for Thompson talked about having a proud province was built strong, and the New Demo­ tradition in his party. Well, I am not sure that crats do not understand it. The New Democrats the people of Manitoba support his proud are trying to put across a phony, fa lse vision of tradition of endorsing and supporting able­ the future, and Manitobans will not buy it. bodied people refusing to work. I do not believe that that is something that is part of our bedrock Madam Speaker, the members opposite have value system in this province. I do not believe the audacity to talk about child care when we that is what built this province strong. So I say have three times as many subsidized child care that the members opposite have clearly made a spaces as they ever had when they were in decision that is consistent with where they have government. We have thousands and thousands been for decades. It is consistent with what their of more opportunities fo r child care. We have party has stood fo r, which is to develop and policies in place to support the people. Whether enhance the culture of dependency. they are in education, whether they are taking parental training, whether they are in addictions Madam Speaker, I reject that, and I believe training, we have policies in place, and we have that the vast majority of Manitobans reject that. capacity that is greater than it ever, ever was The vast majority of Manitobans take pride in under the New Democrats. I cannot imagine how supporting themselves, in self-reliance, in the they can, with a straight face, even talk about dignity of a job, and they want to contribute to these services when they are so superior to what building this province stronger in the future. they were under the Pawley government. That is why I will be supporting Bill 40. I can tell you when I heard the member fo r * (2200) Thompson (Mr. Ashton) talking about 40 unmarked graves in a one-mile stretch on the Madam Speaker: Order, please. Is the House Hudson Bay railway, his head was so far in the ready for the question? The question before the past talking about fighting battles. I know about House is third reading, Bill 40, The Employment those days. My father was a secretary of his and Income Assistance Amendment Act. local, the International Ladies Garment Workers Union. He went into organized labour. He went to work for better wages and conditions at a time Voice Vote when there were sweatshops, when there were difficulties, when there were things to fight for. Madam Speaker: All those in favour of the But these people are still talking about those motion, please say yea. July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4353

Some Honourable Members: Yea. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, I, prior to adjournment, want to put a number of concerns Madam Speaker: All those opposed, please on the record. It is 11 years later, andI think the say nay. need for change is very evident. If we take a look at the budget, and I take a great deal of Some Honourable Members: Nay. pride in the fact that we had voted against this budget, one needs to look in terms of the core of Madam Speaker: In my opinion, the Yeas have the finances and the way in which the govern­ it. ment administers its finances. The Provincial Auditor, amongst many others, has expressed a Mr. Ashton: Yeas and Nays, Madam Speaker. great deal of concern in the way in which this government attempts to manipulate the finances Madam Speaker: A recorded vote has been to try to make the government look better. requested. Call in the members. There is no better example than the Fiscal Stabilization Fund. In fact I would suggest to you, in the Fiscal Stabilization Fund, when I was Division first elected, the government did manage to come up with an actual surplus. As opposed to A RECORDED VOTE was taken, the result having a surplus, they borrowed $150 million in being as follows: order to create the Fiscal Stabilization Fund.

Yeas At the time the New Democrats supported the government in the creation of the Fiscal Cummings, Derkach, Downey, Driedger Stabilization Fund. Then what we saw in the (C harleswood), Enns, Faurschou, Filmon, last budget is where the governmenthas actually Findlay, Gil/eshammer, Helwer, Laurendeau, dipped into the Fiscal Stabilization Fund in order McAlpine, McCrae, Mcintosh, Mitchelson, to cover a deficit. So, in fact, Madam Speaker, Newman, Pitura, Praznik, Radcliffe, Reimer, what we have seen in the last budget is where Render, Rocan, Stefanson, Sveinson, Toews, the government has actually dipped into the Tweed, Vodrey. Fiscal Stabilization Fund in order to cover a deficit. So, in fact, what we have seen is a Nays complete full circle. Once again, we see the New Democratic Party supporting the move by this Ashton, Barrett, Ceri/li, Chomiak, Dewar. Doer, government in terms of the full circle. Evans(/nter/ake) , Hickes, Jennissen, Lamoureux, Mackintosh, Maloway, Martindale, McGif.ford, Madam Speaker, that in itself gives good Mihychuk, Reid, Robinson, Sale, Santos, justification in terms of the Liberal Party's lack Struthers, W owchuk. of confidence, and the reason why we move the motion of nonconfidence in this government and Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): Yeas 27, Nays express our disappointment in terms of the lack 21. of support in that nonconfidence motion from the officialopposition. Madam Speaker: The motion is accordingly carried. Madam Speaker, we take a look in terms of the legislation that has been brought forward. Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I would move, For years and years, it has been over 11 years, seconded by the honourable Minister of Culture, we have seen a government that has not worked Heritage, and Citizenship (Mrs. Vodrey), that with the health care professionals, which we when the House adjourns today, it shall stand believe is absolutely critical in order to manage adjourned until a time fixed by Madam Speaker the change that is necessary in order to make upon the request of the government. health care reform effective and workable. Instead, what we see is a government in its dying Motion presented. days bringing forward legislation that of course 4354 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999 is going to receive all-party support from the scandal. When we hear of ethics, it is a great Chamber. They will receive all-party support deal of concern that Manitobans have on this because it is legislation that is long overdue. I particular issue, and we would have liked to refer to issues such as the chiropractors or the have been able to deal with that particular report physios or our registered nurses, our LPNs. The prior to this session rising. legislation is here today and received fu ll support from the Liberal Party. Having said that, there are many other issues, issues fac ing rural Manitoba, our * (2210) aboriginal people and so forth, in which we believe that we are in a better position to provide Madam Speaker, we take a look at the a more balanced approach, as opposed to workfare bill that we just saw pass moments ago. confrontational, in dealing with those issues. There is no doubt that the Liberal Party disagrees with the old style that the New In terms of reform, we are sitting, I believe Democrats have to offe r Manitobans. Equally it is Day 60 in the last 380 days plus. For a long we disagree with the mean-spirited, punitive time, we have been arguing fo r fixed dates. We actions with which the Tories are bringing in in have been arguing fo r a commitment to spring Bi11 30. and fa ll sessions, but to no avail. Eleven years later, we still do not have any sense of fixed Madam Speaker, what we need is a balanced dates, or guarantee that the MLAs of this approach. We believe that is absolutely essential Chamber will in fact be serving in one of the heading into the turn of the century. We also cornerstones of democracy, of our parliamentary take a look at the important issue of health care. system, by serving Manitobans through account­ We have recognized fo r a long time that this is ability through this Chamber. We are disap­ indeed a No. 1 issue for all Manitobans. We pointed in terms of the lack of government were glad to see the government put more looking at the reform in that nature. money in the health care budget, but we have to realize that it is more than just money. It is a question of how we administer our health care in We take a look at our committees, Madam the province of Manitoba and how the govern­ Speaker. We were pleased that we were able to ment manages that. All we need to realize is pass a motion that would in fact see changes to that, at one time, it was illegal for patients to our Public Accounts committee. We look sleep overnight in our hallways, and how much fo rward to the committee coming back or the things have changed. There is a litany of subcommittee of that committee coming back examples that one can recite. with recommendations that will bring our Public Accounts into this century. There are other Madam Speaker, we take a look at standing committees that deal with our hydro, education. We believe all three political parties Manitoba Hydro, that deal with Lotteries, that inside this Chamber see the benefits of the meet, if we are lucky, once a year. More often standards exams in order to ensure good, quality than not, we are talking about a year and a half, public education, even though we question the and fo r us that is not a way in which we hold the Grade 3 level that the government is adminis­ government accountable. We believe that tering them at. But we are greatly disappointed standing committees and the need for reform is in terms of this government's lack of action in there. There are billions of dollars that are protecting the integrity of those standards exams. being spent through the years, and Manitobans A classic example of that is in fact the lack of are entitled to see that sort of reform take place. direct action in calling fo r that independent investigation. Having said that, Madam Speaker, it has always been a great pleasure for me personally The question of ethics, we are quite to be able to stand up and represent both my disappointed in terms that we did not get the party and my constituents. report prior to the rising of the session in regard - to the Monnin inquiry or the vote-rigging Thank you, Madam Speaker. July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4355

Mr. James Downey (Arthur-Virden): Madam replaced in each election campaign, and there are Speaker, I would just like to take two minutes to always elections that replace the individuals that make a nonpolitical statement, my first in 22 are in this Chamber today. If there is not another years. sitting day, I wish all the individuals well. It is a battle in democracy of ideas, of personalities, of I would like to acknowledge the con­ principles, of values, and often we do not know stituency of Arthur-Virden for their support of what is going to happen. I have seen really good 22 years. I would also like to acknowledge all people from all political parties defeated when honourable members and their support that I the mood is against, the wave starts turning have had, and even though I am a little around the other way, and I wish all members emotional at this particular time, I may come well irrespective of our disagreement, which was back and so do not get feeling too sorry for me. manifested I think a little bit in Bill 40 just a few moments ago. I do want to say that all the individuals that I have had the privilege of serving with have been It is our job, Madam Speaker. We had lots extremely honourable people. I think the country of political speeches and lots of political has been better for their contributions. I thank questions, but it is our job ultimately to represent the Premier (Mr. Filmon) for allowing me the the people of the province in this Chamber, and I opportunity to serve as Deputy Premier and in am proud of the fact that our caucus, and I his ministry for as many years as he did, and I believe all members, attempted to deal with the just wish each and every one personal health and challenges of Manitoba people. We must deal personal prosperity. with the people's priorities. This was a short session, and probably its most notable feature Thank you, Madam Speaker. was a nonevent, a nonelection, but there were important issues to Manitoba people, to Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, first of all, I would Manitoba families, to Manitoba communities, a like to start out by saying that I prefer the kinder, fe w of which I would like to highlight tonight. gentler, emotional Jim Downey to the other one we have known over the last number of years, Obviously, the flooding in southwestern but I know that is not the way he is going to run Manitoba is a huge tragedy of monumental the campaign, so I just wish him and Linda well. proportions, and in the central area of Manitoba it is also, along some of the municipalities, a I know there are other members. You never major concern. We have tried in this session to know when there is going to be another session. put partisan politics aside, to work with all This is the fifth one. I thought we would be off members of this Chamber as team Manitoba, to and the election would be over by now, but we work with all people on behalf of the people that do not know whether the LG is going to have to are most directly impacted, and we have not bring in the army for you people to call an thought about what is going to happen in the election. election campaign and who holds the seat and But I do want to, in all seriousness, wish all who could hold the seat in the future or who the individuals well that will not be seeking could hold another seat in the future. We think it election again, the member for Fort Garry (Mrs. was important for the people of southwest Vodrey) and I know the member fo r Steinbach Manitoba that we on the opposition side stood (Mr. Driedger) and the member for Springfield with them in their time of crisis. We were proud (Mr. Findlay) and others that may not run again. to do that, and we will continue to do that. There are a few on our side still making up their mind. Of course, they never know when the * (2220) session is going to be over and when the election is going to start, so we keep our powder dry on I am pleased our national Leader had a these things, but I wish them all well. chance to visit with some of our caucus members, and I hope that helped, calling on the Madam Speaker, one of the great parts of Prime Minister to directly visit that area. It is an our job is that we get hired and rehired and absolute, I think, scandal that the federal 4356 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999 government has not, through the Prime Minister, into the 21st Century, Madam Speaker. visited that region when you consider the Red Manitobans do not want to see a situation where River Valley had a visit in '97 and the Saguenay a thousand nurses are fired right after the and the ice storms of Ontario and Quebec.f-We election and 600 are rehired back just before an deserve equal treatment in western Canada, and election. Manitobans need those nurses the we must get equal treatment fo r those people. month after the election campaign, and that is what we should deliver to the people of this I am also proud of the fact that other people province on their No. I priority. in our community that need hope and oppor­ tunity we have stood fo r and stood with in this Madam Speaker, we believe in education session. The issue of the unemployment rate not and training as part of an economic strategy. being calculated for First Nations communities; Yes, the unemployment rate is low and, yes, that the hope of people that want jobs. Do you is helpful to people in this province but, you remember we talked a little bit tonight about know, we have had nine years of neglect in jobs and dependency and self-reliance? Well, apprenticeship programs, community college there were a lot of people talking about jobs and programs, universities that are becoming less hope and opportunity in this building a fe w and less accessible, New Careers programs and months ago. We believe that all Manitobans Access programs that have been cut again fo r should be considered in the unemployment rolls, aboriginal people. The people of this province and we believe that all unemployed Manitobans want the skilled jobs of the future. They want a should share in the economic opportunity and high-skilled, well-trained economic strategy. the great opportunities of Manitoba and Canada, We stand with the fam ilies of Manitoba that see and we were pleased to stand with those people. that as our vision in a changing global economy. Let us again repledge ourselves to those issues. Madam Speaker, I would ask members opposite to reconsider their decision on the In this session we have tried to vote consis­ - casino report that they have rejected. I would tent with the public interest. The government has ask them to reconsider some of the rhetoric that had great joy about our budget vote. I suspect has taken place. I do not want confrontation in they would have even greater joy if we had Manitoba. I do not want Manitoba to end up like voted against the budget. I do not know about Oka. I believe that hope and opportunity and that. We did produce an alternative budget last implementing the report for a limited number of year. We produced an alternative budget that casinos, which they have done in Saskatchewan, said health care should be the No. I priority and and even if it means decreasing gambling in we should take money out of the rainy day fund other parts of the community so we can give now. It is unfortunate that it was 15 months later First Nations people a little bit of the hope and than we had suggested, but it was worthy of our opportunity in this area, is the Manitoba way. I consideration. We put proposals in fo r would ask members opposite to reconsider that. education, included in our alternative budget, All the politics aside, please, please, let us work dealing with public education, training, Access, together with our fe llow Manitobans. New Careers. We said that property taxes should come down before income taxes should We have worked together with people on the come down. front lines of health care, the patients in hallways, the fam ilies that are worried about surgery, families that are worried about delays in We also said in our alternative budget that surgery, people that are worried about working the small-business tax should be reduced I in the front lines of medicine. We will continue percent per year, and the money should come, as to work on what we consider to be Manitobans' the CFIB had recommended, from the corporate No. I priority. We will continue to work for a welfare in the budget over to all small people's health care system that allows people on businesses. That makes sense to us, because the front lines working in health care and people small businesses tell us that the government that depend on health care to develop the should not pick winners and losers. The tax innovations but the predictability of health care regime for small business should be fair and July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4357

should be lowered. That was our alternative ment broke its promise in 1995. We voted budget. against that provision. We said that the taxes would go up (1) from income tax andthe CRTC * (2230) has confirmed that, and (2) it would go up to deal potentially with changes in municipal Now, we did not get everything in the taxation. budget that we had proposed 15 months ago in the budget that the government brought down in Madam Speaker, the government has come 1999, but a lot of what we said was there. A lot together again with string and binder twine to of what we would do further or reallocations we amend The Municipal Assessment Act to deal would make to make it fairer we have moved in with the Manitoba telephone system and amendments. But we fe lt it was important that Manitoba Hydro. We know that Hydro can be the budget was close to what we had said a year treated in a separate way, because it is a publicly ago. We thought that we should not then just try owned corporation, but the government should to find one or two reasons to vote against it. We have known and should have been honest with supported it. We knew that the government had the people in 1995, that they planned on selling fileA to criticize us, file B to criticize us, but we the phone system. We should not have had to are accountable to the people. We are account­ have binder twine to amend the legislation to able to the people who elect us and we feel very deal with their broken promise. You should have secure in the decision we made and the reasons voted with the people against the privatization of we made them. the Manitoba telephone system, and that is, again, why we are proud that we come in here We also fe el equally secure in voting with representing the people of this province. the people we believe on Bill 40. Yes, people want to see people who are able bodied who Madam Speaker, the government is out of have an opportunity to work, work. Nobody is gas. It is out of energy. It is out of enthusiasm. disagreeing with that. But putting together a bill It is clinging to power. It is clinging to power. at the last minute, clip and cutting the bill, and It did not have the courage of its own the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) has convictions to call the election-[interjection] agreed with this position, that put some of the Well, Mick Jagger is laughing, but it looked like most vulnerable people at risk and give the axe Tiny Tim to us a few months ago when he to people who are in cabinet as opposed to rights tiptoed through the tulips, when he did not have and privileges and responsibilities passed in this the courage of his convictions to call the election Legislature we think is the wrong way to go. campaign.

We think it is important to consult with the Madam Speaker, this government is clinging people before you pass legislation. I have to power. I believe that Manitobans do not already said that about the people. I think most expect absolute perfection from their politicians. fair-minded Manitobans will want disabled and God knows, they are not going to get it from deaf people in our communities to be involved at anybody. They are not going to get perfection the front end of legislation, not be involved after from any political party, but they do expect the legislation is passed. And that is why we are democracy and the traditions of democracy to be proud that we voted again, we think, with the maintained and enhanced. They do expect that Manitoba way as long as we can get the truth out people working at the most senior levels of about what is really in or not in this bill. government will tell the truth, and that is I believe going to be a very important issue. Madam Speaker, it is almost ironic that again one of the last issues we had to deal with I recall in the Nixon Watergate burglary that in legislation was one of the major broken there was one issue and one event that was promises of this government. Again we voted, wrong, and we will find out how many criminal we believe, with the people three years ago when charges will be laid shortly. But the cover-up is we voted against the privatization of the something that remained in the minds of many Manitoba Telephone System after the govern- North Americans, and we need to reinstate the 4358 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999

values of our democracy in this Chamber and before, and, yes, they are stretched further than outside of this Chamber. they ever have been before. We want our kids to fe el that they will be able to afford university if The member fo r Inkster (Mr. Lamourew�) they do well in high school. We want average mentioned fixed dates of the Legislature. I agree families to have that, and I am afraid that in this totally, and we commit ourselves totally to time of the good times for some and the tough having two sessions of the Legislature, to have times fo r many others, we are losing that dream elected Speakers of the Legislature, to have fo r many of our young people. We have to committees of the Legislature meet more reinstate and reinstill that dream fo r our kids. regularly, to release polls that have been paid fo r by the taxpayers, Madam Speaker, a number of Madam Speaker, our dream is to have safe things that would make democracy more communities-safe communities. Give kids the important, but I do not want the fixed dates of opportunity to be involved in productive activity. the House of Commons because that brings in We want our kids in the school gymnasiums closure. I totally rej ect the proposal from the after 3:30, not at the 7-Eievens. We want safe Leader of the Liberal Party to bring the Ottawa communities. We want a society that says that closure motions in as incumbent upon a fixed health care must be affordable and accessible date here in Manitoba. Surely we can have and available to all of our citizens through sessions in the fall and we can have sessions in publicly administered health care. Enough of the spring, but we do not want a fixed ending the rainy days in health care. Let us end the because that, by definition, brings closure. That crisis in health care. is the Manitoba way to improve and not Ottawa­ ize this Chamber. That is the kind of society that we want and I am very pleased with our caucus. I want to Madam Speaker, in conclusion, I did not thank all the legislative staff, the pages, the want to go long tonight. I think that our caucus interns, the Clerk's office and all the others who has tried to represent the interests of people at make this Legislative Chamber a success, every challenge. Today we were raising the Hansard. question of the virolcgy lab and its impact. We were standing with people who are dealing with Madam Speaker, I want to say to you that no the flood crisis. matter whom we had to represent in this Chamber in this session, we always put people What our caucus wants for this Legislature first, no matter what their region, no matter what is what we want fo r the province of Manitoba. their people, and we put the most vulnerable We want clean air. We want clean water. We people first aheadof politics. want a sustainable community to pass on to our children. We want good schools with teachers Thank you very, very much, Madam who are respected. We want curriculums that Speaker. will take our kids into the 21st Century. We want an education and training strategy that will Mr. Filmon: I am delighted to be able to end allow our children to get the skilled jobs of the this session by putting a few words on the future, so our children can stay in this province record, my thoughts, my views, my concerns, and raise a family in this province. We want my hopes fo r the future. more community clubs opened up and fewer new courtrooms built at a high cost for one I want to begin by just saying that in this child. That is the kind of community that we session we have had a whole variety of different want. issues to deal with. We have had some stormy times. We have had some interesting times. We Madam Speaker, we want a situation where have had some times in which I have fe lt a sense average families 20 years ago fe lt that their kids of co-operation and collaboration amongst mem­ could grow up and go to university if they did bers in the House, and I would like to begin by well in school and now feel, yes, they have got a thanking many in this Legislature for their co­ job, and, yes, they are working harder than ever operation and support on a variety of fronts. July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4359

The farm cnsts that faces many of our those farmers on the land so they can seed again producers in southwestern and south-central next year. I hope that the member for Inkster Manitoba is, I think, a crisis of unheralded (Mr. Lamoureux) will find it in his heart to join proportions, perhaps going back to the Dirty us and to convince his Leader that we have to Thirties. The fact that we could rely on the put all pressure on Ottawa to deal equitably with support of members opposite throughout that Manitoba before this is resolved. period of time, I think, gave a great sense of confidence to our government to be able to work * (2240) collaboratively with members opposite. Madam Speaker, I never thought I would I will say that I was disappointed in the say this, but I want to thank the members Leader of the Liberal Party and his represen­ opposite for their support for our budget. I know tatives in this House for taking a position that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) has essentially of defending Ottawa, and, frankly, I stated publicly that he is going to keep all the have been through that. I remember in the days good things that Filmon did, and I think that of Brian Mulroney, I remember something that there are a growing and growing number of good that former Prime Minister has never fo rgotten, things in his mind obviously. Little did he know when I stood up with the members of the New how much more good we had to offer. I hope Democratic Party and voted for a resolution that he sticks around after the next election to condemning Ottawa fo r deindexing seniors' keep supporting all the good things that we are pensions. We had other issues that we disagreed doing. Obviously the 1999 budget had many on. We had issues with respect to language; we good things, as has, I believe, every budget that had issues with respect to Constitution. I always we brought into this Legislature, many things fe lt that the people in Ottawawere elected with a that have been good for people. mandate to support and be concerned about the interests of people from coast to coast. My I listened to the Leader of the Opposition-! mandate was the best interests of the people of should not digress, but I enjoy it more that way­ Manitoba. the Leader of the Opposition points to areas over the years, the 11 years that we have been in I think in that respect that it is probably office, and heaven knows we have not always unfortunate that the Leader of the Liberal Party done things that everybody supported. Heaven spent his first days in politics in Ottawa and has knows, we have disappointed people. Heaven not been able to shake the sense that he has to be knows that there have always been people that speaking for the government in Ottawa of the have said we want more here or you should have same political stripe. I hope that he learns before done more there, you could have done this it is too late that we in this Legislature have a differently, and so on and so fo rth. When you mandate to speak for the people of our province consider the literally hundreds and thousands of and to support the people of our province to the decisions that we make in the course of each and best possibie extent that we can. That is why we every year, the course of 11 years, it is not are here. surprising that members opposite could have a litany of things that they could say were not I think that the effects of the farm crisis are popular or were things that they want to going to be very, very far reaching for our campaign on. economy, for the future particularly of people in those parts of the province that are directly affected. We are all going to have to work very, But, when I hear the Leader of the very hard to support them through this effort. I Opposition talk about these areas in which we still hope that Ottawa will see fitto join with us have not spent enough over the years, and he in cost-sharing the commitment which we have talks about specific issues in health care or he made to those people to get them through. I talks about specific issues in education or he believe that in all conscience and any sense of talks about the Access program or he talks about fairness and equity, they should be part of that the friendship centres, and so on, you would resolution, part of that support network to keep think you were listening to Rip Van Winkle, 4360 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999 because the '90s have been a difficult time for opposite were in government to $100 million of every government in this country. film production because of the policies of this government, and they continue with this budget. Firstly, in the first part of the 1990s we had the second worst recession this century in We have established the Lower Tax Canada. Only the Dirty Thirties were worse than Commission so that we will continue to ensure that economic period of time, and, obviously, that not only will our taxes be fa ir but indeed government revenues were under tremendous they will continue to go down. We know the stress and pressure. position of members opposite, and we talk about flip and flop. That is what we are talking about. No sooner did we start to work our way out Here we have the list of all of the tax cuts that of it when the federal government reduced they voted against over the years since we have transfers over a period of fo ur years by $260 been in office. They voted against tax changes, million a year. There has not been a more the reduction and elimination of payroll tax for challenging or difficult time that I can look back many people in a budget of 1988. They voted on, and I can look back fo r several decades; I am against it. The 1990 budget, where, again, there getting to that stage. But there has not been a were some payroll tax credits and payroll tax more difficult or stressful time fo r any exemptions, they voted against it. The sales tax government to deal with, and like Rip Van exemption fo r commercial aircraft, the payroll Winkle, he just says, well, they should have tax exemption being increased, the 10 percent done more, they should have done more, they manufacturing investment tax credits in 1993, should have done more. voted against all of them. Aviation fuel tax reduced, they voted against. Railway diesel fuel You can only spend what you have got, and, tax reduced, they voted against, on and on and you know, the members opposite threw $200 on. They voted against all these tax reductions, million into a jobs fund that did not create one the '94 budget, the '95 budget, the '96 budget, the nickel, that did not create one job that stiii exists '97 budget, the '98 budget, Madam Speaker. today. The members opposite lost $30 million on the sands of Saudi Arabia and MTX. The It is interesting, members opposite are members opposite did all of these things, but talking about, of course, how much better they they are geniuses. Today they are sitting would do. We know how abysmally they did opposite and they are geniuses in their own when they were in office in the 1980s in the minds. I cannot believe it. [interjection] You Pawley-Doer administration. I just want to will not be here to hear any more, but there wiii refresh their memories on this. This is a be lots coming. Winnipeg Sun article of March 22, 1983, and it says-[interjection] No, I was very much alive Madam Speaker, in the area of taxation, and awake then, and that is why I have all this for instance, this government has consistently here to remind you of. I want the member fo r reduced the taxes to Manitobans. Personal Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen) to please pay attention income taxes which were the highest in Canada to this because he may want to talk about this when we took office are now seven points lower when he goes back home. A 60-year-old Flin than they were when we took office. The Flon man, who suffered a massive heart attack, income tax rates to small business are being died en route to Winnipeg only hours after his reduced successively so that they will be hometown hospital refused to admit him to its amongst the lowest in Canada. We have had intensive care ward. Intensive care manager Liz things like the Film and Video Production Tax Henry told the media she had been unable to Credit. I met today with a couple of producers convince her qualifiednurses to take shifts in the from Disney who are here because of the fact highly stressful unit. The unit had been closed that, well, they were going to do a cartoon on the for four days when Nystrom arrived the night of members opposite, but they are here because this March 12. is in their judgment the best environment in Canada, and we have gone from $1 miilion a This is one story. That is '83. Here is another year of film production when the members one from '83: A strike by maintenance staff has July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4361 spread from the Health Sciences Centre to two British Columbia, and No. 9 is Saskatchewan. more Winnipeg hospitals. The 1,100-bed HSC That is where their economies are in growth, No. was forced to discharge 50 percent of its patient 10 and No. 9. load. Fifty percent of its patient load was discharged when they were in office. When the member opposite talks in lovely terms about they want to work with health care Here is another thing: Long waits for workers to create a better health care system, elective surgery were widespread and frequent they wantto work with teachers to create a better during 1982. This is what the MMA executive education system, they want to work with people director said, December 1982. People are to do better, how on earth is this going to happen waiting longer for needed surgery and some with their deliberate antibusiness policies that people are dying before they can have it. That is are going to put our economy where the under the NDP. Four patients at the HSC died economies of British Columbia and Saskat­ before intensive care bed space could be found chewan are, down the toilet. What they do not for them. This was in 1983. In Brandon, a recognize is that you need to have a strong waiting list of a thousand patients fo r surgery. I economy in order to do anything for people. So wish the member for Brandon East (Mr. L. they can talk all they want about creating better Evans) could hear my words. opportunities, but right today the young people of this province know that, for instance, those * (2250) who are in the Faculty of Management at the University of Manitoba, 92 percent of them got So I want to say, Madam Speaker, that we jobs in Manitoba this year. That is what the know how bad it was while they were in office. dean said in a public speech. Now, of course, we know what it is like when New Democrats are in office in British Those who are in our community colleges, Columbia. I know it hurts for the members over 90 percent get jobs in Manitoba, in our opposite. I know it hurts. Health line-ups push community colleges. In engineering, almost 80 patients to private tests. This is July 20, 1998, in percent of the graduates are getting jobs in British Columbia. Manitoba. When I graduated, it was 55 percent; it is almost 80 percent today. That is because of This is British Columbia as well. This is the economy. So, when the member opposite about the critic fo r the environment. Clark has this billboard that says, jobs for our youth, I government axes 159 environment jobs. This is remind him that when we took office their youth December 22, '98. The Clark government unemployment rate was 3 percent above reduced its funding to municipalities by 50 Canada's. Today it is 5 percent below Canada's. percent to 80 percent. This is also December of There are more people employed than ever 1998, and it says: Why B.C. stands fo r basket before in the history of this province. We have case. the lowest unemployment rate in Canada.

Now that is what New Democrats today do. Our people are earning almost $14 billion in That is what today's New Democrats do: destroy wages and salaries, the highest income that has the economy and still have terrible health care, ever been earned in the history of this province, still have terrible child and family services. and that is what people are concernedabout, and [interjection] That is right. That is what B.C. is. that is what the future is all about. It is not about New Democrats' promises of phoney, make­ Here is an interesting thing from June of this work jobs. It is not about New Democrats year. Toronto Globe and Mail says: B.C. talking, as the member for Osborne (Ms. blasted for cuts in support to disabled children's McGifford) talks about the government is going program. That is what the New Democrats do to create jobs. The government does not and when they are in government, and, of course, the cannot create jobs other than by having policies worst thing is, if you look at what is happening that encourage people to invest, and that is why to the economies of the two provinces that have we have investment levels that are the highest in New Democratic administrations: No. 10 is our history, employment levels that are the 4362 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999 highest in our history, export levels that are the strike and a work stoppage and disruption. This highest in our history and the best growth rate in government worked with UFCW, and I believe all of western Canada. That is what has that we resolved that issue. We will know very happened as a result of the efforts of this shortly at St. Boniface General Hospital. This government. government worked with the ambulance workers, and that was resolved because we were Madam Speaker, I guess the point that has dedicated to good-faith bargaining and negotia­ been most amusing during the course of this tions to ensure that we had that resolved. session has been the attitude of members * (2300) opposite. You might recall that before the House started, you had members opposite saying Madam Speaker, this government continues day after day: Call the House, get us in session, to work with the doctors of our province. we have all these new ideas, we have all these Section by section by section we are resolving policies that we want to introduce, call the the issues, and we are ensuring that we are not House, we have new legislation, we have new only in a position where we are competitive to ideas. The House came into session, in fact, retain our doctors but that in fact we will be able they said: Let us at them, let us at them. They to recruit in the fu ture. This governmentworked even called news conferences to have mock with the Workers Compensation Board widows. Question Periods. That is exactly what we have The New Democrats were not able to resolve been having fo r 14 weeks is mock Question that. Periods, because they cannot think of anything serious to ask. No new ideas, no new policies. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Come on, is that all there really is? Who is running out of gas? It is you guys. You are Madam Speaker: Order, please. running out of gas. Mr. Filmon: I cannot believe the members All we have had fo r 14 weeks is criticism opposite that they could possibly say that they and mudslinging, and it takes more than empty are to be credited. They are the ones who slogans and eight-second clips to build a created the problem in the first place. How do government and an economy and a future fo r you think those widows lost their pensions? It this province. was because of your policies, the New Democratic policies from the '70s and the '80s. So, Madam Speaker, the member opposite Unbelievable. Unbelievable, Madam Speaker. talked about co-operation and working together with people. That is precisely what this govern­ Madam Speaker, the members opposite are ment has been doing. I only remind him that in living in a dream world, a dream world in which the space of the last couple of months we have they believe that all of the terrible things that resolved problems that other provinces in they did in the past should either be fo rgotten or Canada had difficulty with and had strikes on. that in fact they were responsible for the good Our nurses, we worked with them, we worked things that we have done and not responsible for with them and we worked with them, and we the bad things that they have done. The public resolved the issue with the nurses, and indeed we knows better; the public is not that naive. The had a negotiated settlement with the nurses. public knows that New Democrats stand fo r Unlike Newfoundland, unlike Saskatchewan and destroying business, destroying investment, and unlike Quebec in which there are major destroying opportunity. The New Democrats disruptions, people put in jeopardy and health stand fo r dependency, and we stand for self­ care in chaos, this government worked with the reliance. We stand for encouragement of invest­ nurses of this province and resolved the issue ment, encouragement of jobs, encouragement of through negotiation and good-faith bargaining. opportunities and a positive attitude toward the future. This government worked to resolve the

CUPE issue, thousands of health care support I say to you, Madam Speaker, I am glad that - workers. This issue was resolved without a we have had the opportunity during this session July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4363 to know how little the New Democrats have to We, Her Majesty's most dutiful and faithful offer for the future. I know, when Manitobans subjects, the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba have a chance to look at a positive vision of the in session assembled, approach Your Honour future, at the continued creation of new with sentiments of unfeigned devotion and opportunity, of jobs for our young people, of loyalty to Her Majesty's person and government better services for our people in health care, in and beg for Your Honour the acceptance of these education and family services and all of the bills: various departments and areas that government is responsible for, they will choose that brighter Bill 45-The Loan Act, 1999; Loi d'emprunt future, they will choose that optimism and they de 1999. will choose the confidence because they know that there are people opposite who know nothing Bill 46-The Appropriation Act, 1999; Loi more than eight-second clips and empty slogans, de 1999 portant affectation de credits. and there are people here who have a solid track record of achievement and who have a plan to Mr. Clerk (William Remnant): His Honour make the future even better. the Lieutenant Governor doth thank Her Majesty's dutiful and loyal subjects, accepts their Madam Speaker, that is what we stand for benevolence and assents to these bills in Her and that is what we offer. Majesty's name.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. Is the House Madam Speaker: May it please Your Honour: ready fo r the question? The question before the House is that when the House adjourns today, it The Legislative Assembly, at its present shall stand adjourned until a time fixed by session, passed bills, which in the name of the Madam Speaker upon the request of the Assembly, I present to Your Honour and to government. Is it agreed? which bills I respectfully request Your Honour's assent: Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Bill 3-The Fatality Inquiries Amendment Madam Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur Jes enquetes medico-legales. * (2320) Bill 4-The Law Fees Amendment and Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, I would ask if Consequential Amendments Act; Loi modifiant the table officers could bring in His Honour the Ia Loi sur les frais judiciaires et modifications Lieutenant Governor. correlatives.

Madam Speaker: I have been advised that the Bill 5-The Highway Traffic Amendment, Lieutenant Governor will be here in Off-Road Vehicles Amendment and approximately fivemi nutes time. Consequential Amendments Act; Loi modifiant le Code de Ia route et Ia Loi sur les vehicules a ROYAL ASSENT caractere non routier et modifications correlatives. Deputy Sergeant-at-Arms (Mr. Garry Clark): His Honour the Lieutenant Governor. Bill 6-The Highway Traffic Amendment Act; Loi modifiant le Code de Ia route. His Honour, Peter Liba, Lieutenant Governor of the Province of Manitoba, having entered the Bill 7-The Public Schools Amendment Act; House at 11:23 p.m., and being seated on the Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur les ecoles publiques. throne, Madam Speaker addressed His Honour the Lieutenant Governorin the followingwords: Bill 8-The Ozone Depleting Substances Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur les Madam Speaker: May it please Your Honour: substances appauvrissant Ia couche d'ozone. 4364 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA July 14, 1999

Bill 9-The Securities Amendment and Bill 25-The Municipal Assessment Commodity Futures and Consequential Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur Amendments Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia !'evaluation municipale. Loi sur les valeurs mobilieres et Ia Loi sur les contrats a terme de marchandises et apportant Bill 26-The Physiotherapists Act; Loi sur des modifications com!latives. Ies physiotherapeutes.

Bill 11-The Statute Law Amendment Bill 29-The Victims' Rights Amendment (Nunavut) Act, 1999; Loi de 1999 modifiant Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur les droits des diverses dispositions legislatives (Nunavut). victimes.

Bill 12-The Statute Law Amendment Act, Bill 30--The Veterinary Medical Act; Loi sur 1999; Loi de 1999 modifiant diverses Ia medecine veterinaire. dispositions legislatives. Bill 31-The Association of Manitoba Bill 13-The University of Manitoba Municipalities Incorporation and Consequential Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur Amendments Act; Loi constituant !'Association l'Universite du Manitoba. des municipalites du Manitoba et modifications correlatives. Bill 14-The Amusements Amendment Act; Loi modiftant le Loi sur les divertissements. Bill 34-The Court of Queen's Bench Amendment and Consequential Amendments Bill 15-The Cemeteries Amendment Act; Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur Ia Cour du Bane de Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur Ies cimetieres. Ia Reine et modifications correlatives.

Bill 16-The Court of Queen's Bench Small Bill 35-The Highway Traffic Amendment Claims Practices Amendment and Parental Act (2); Loi no 2 modifiant le Code de Ia route. Responsibility Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur le recouvrement des petites creances a Ia Bill 36-The Registered Nurses Act; Loi sur Cour du Bane de Ia Reine et Ia Loi sur Ia les infirmieres. responsabilite parentale. Bill 37-The Licensed Practical Nurses Act; Bill 18-The Correctional Services Loi sur les infirmieres auxiliaires. Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur les services correctionnels. Bill 38-The Registered Psychiatric Nurses Act; Loi sur Ies infirmierespsychia triques. Bill 19-The Agricultural Credit Corporation Act; Loi sur Ia Societe du credit agricole. Bill 39-The Medical Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi medicale. Bill 20--The Chiropodists Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur les chiropodistes. Bill 40--The Employment and Income Assistance Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Bill 21-The Ophthalmic Dispensers Loi sur !'aide a l'emploi et au revenu. Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur les opticiens Bill 41-The Professional Corporations d'ordonnance et modifications com!latives. (Various Acts Amendment) Act, 1999; Loi de 1999 sur les corporations professionnelles Bill 23-The Order of Manitoba Act; Loi sur (modification de diverses dispositions l'Ordre du Manitoba Act. legislatives ).

Bill 24-The Municipal Amendment Act; Loi Bill 42-The Community Protection and - modifiant Ia Loi sur les municipalites. Liquor Control Amendment Act; Loi sur 1a July 14, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4365

protection des collectivites et modifiant Ia Loi God Save the Queen was sung. sur Ia reglementation des alcools. 0 Canada! was sung. Bill 43-The Highway Traffic Amendment and Summary Convictions Amendment Act; Loi Madam Speaker: Please be seated. modifiant le Code de 1a route et Ia Loi sur les poursuites sommaires. Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I would move, andit Bill 44-The Gaming Control Local Option is with great pleasure that this motion is (VLT) Act; Loi sure les options locales en seconded by the honourable member for Arthur­ matiere de jeu (appareils de loterie video). Virden (Mr. Downey), that this House do now adjourn. Bill 47-The Municipal Assessment Amendment Act (2); Loi no 2 modifiant Ia Loi Madam Speaker: It has been moved by the sur l'evaluation municipale. honourable government House leader, seconded by the honourable member for Arthur-Virden, Mr. Clerk: In Her Majesty's name, his Honour that this House do now adjourn. Agreed? the Lieutenant Governor doth assent to these bills. Some Honourable Members: Agreed. His Honour was then pleased to retire. * (2330) Madam Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

July 14, 1999

CONTENTS

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Bill 47 Presenting Reports by Standing Wowchuk 4273 and Special Committees MTS Labour Dispute Committee of Supply Cerilli 4274 Laurendeau 4263 Outstanding Young Farmer Award Standing Committee on Law Dan and Anita Penner Amendments, 5th Report Faurschou 4276 Laurendeau 4274 ORDERS OF THE DAY Tabling of Reports Report Stage Quarterly financial report, Manitoba Bill 40-The Employment And Income Public Insurance fo r the three months Assistance Amendment Act 4276 ended May 3 1, 1999 Mcintosh 4263 Committee of Supply Oral Questions Consideration of Concurrence Motion Virology Lab Mihychuk 4277 Doer; Mcintosh 4263 Newman 4277 Dewar; Mcintosh 4266 Sale 4280 Santos; Mcintosh 4267 Tweed 4280 Wowchuk 4282 Folklorama Enns 4282 Lamoureux; Vodrey 4269 Mackintosh 4284 Toews 4284 Education system Cerilli 4289 Lamoureux; McCrae 4270 Mitchelson 4289 Martindale 4295 Mining Industry Chomiak 4301 Mihychuk; Newman 4270 Stefanson 4301 Doer 4301 Health Care System Chomiak; Stefanson 427 1 Committee ofWays and Means

Members' Statements Capital Supply Sveinson 4309 Legislative Interns Laurendeau 4272 Main Supply Sveinson 4309 Economic Growth Martindale 4272 Introduction Of Bills

- Pan Am Games Biii 46-The Appropriation Helwer 4273 Act, 1999 43 10 Bill 45-The Loan Act, 1999 Bill 46-The Appropriation Act, 1999 4363 Second Readings Bill 3-The Fatality Inquiries Bill 46-The Appropriation Act 43 10 Amendment Act 4363 Bill 45-The Loan Act, 1999 43 10 Bill 4-The Law Fees Amendment and Consequential Amend- Committee of the Whole ments Act 4363 Bill 45-The Loan Act, 1999 4311 Bill 5-The Highway Traffic Amendment, Bill 46-The Appropriation Off-Road Vehicles Amendment and Act, 1999 43 11 Consequential Amendments Act 4363

Report Stage Bill 6-The Highway Traffic Amendment Act 4363 Bill 45-The Loan Act, 1999 43 11 Bill 7-The Public Schools Bill 46-The Appropriation Amendment Act 4363 Act, 1999 43 11 Bill 8-The Ozone Depleting Third Readings Substances Amendment Act 4363

Bill 46-The Appropriation Bill 9-The Securities Amendment Act, 1999 and Commodity Futures and Lamoureux 4312 Consequential Amendments Amendment Act 4364 Bill 45-The Loan Act, 1999 43 12 Bill 11-The Statute Law Bill 40-The Employment and Income Amendment (Nunavut)Act, 1999 4364 Assistance Amendment Act Toews 43 13 Bill 12-The Statute Law Martindale 4317 Amendment Act, 1999 4364 Mcintosh 4320 McGifford 4323 Bill 13-The University of Manitoba Laurendeau 4326 Amendment Act 4364 Sale 4328 M. Driedger 4330 Bill 14-The Amusements Barrett 4332 Amendment Act 4364 Sveinson 4334 Cerilli 4337 Bill 15-The Cemeteries McCrae 4339 Amendment Act 4364 Ashton 4341 Bill 16-The Court of Queen's Bench Mitchelson 4343 Small Claims Practices Amendment Lamoureux 4346 and Parental Responsibility Doer 4346 Amendment Act 4364 Filmon 4349 Downey 4355 Bil1 18-The Correctional Services Amendment Act 4364 Royal Assent Bill 19-The Agricultural Credit Bill 45-The Loan Act, 1999 4363 Corporation Act 4364 Bill 20-The Chiropodists Bill 36-The Registered Nurses Act 4364 Amendment Act 4364 Bill 37-The Licensed Practical Bili 21-The Ophthalmic Dispensers Nurses Act 4364 Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act 4364 Biii 38-The Registered Psychiatric Nurses Act 4364 Bill 23-The Order of Manitoba Act 4364 Bill 39-The Medical Bill 24-The Municipal Amendment Act 4364 Amendment Act 4364 Bill 40-The Employment and Income Bill 25-The Municipal Assessment Assistance Amendment Act 4364 Amendment Act 4364 Bill 41-The Professional Corporations Bill 26-The Physiotherapists Act 4364 (Various Acts Amendment) Act, 1999 4364 Bill 29-The Victims' Rights Amendment Act 4364 Bill 42-The Community Protection and Liquor Control Amend- Bili 30-The Veterinary ment Act 4364 Medical Act 4364 Bill 43-The Highway Traffic Biii 31-The Association ofManitoba Amendment and Summary Municipalities Incorporation and Convictions Amendment Act 4365 Consequential Amendments Act 4364 - Bill 34-The Court of Queen's Bench Bill 44-The Gaming Control Local Amendment and Consequential Option (VL T) Act 4365 Amendments Act 4364

Bill 35-The Highway Traffic Biii 47-The Municipal Assessment Amendment Act (2) 4364 Amendment Act (2) 4365

- 18/28199 • The Ma nitoba Gazette • Vo l. 128, No . 35 • Gazette du Ma nitoba •

PROCLAMATIONS

Peter M. Liba Peter M. Liba Lieutenant Governor Lieutenant-gouverneur

CANADA CANADA PROVINCE OF MANITOBA PROVINCE DU MANITOBA

ELIZABETH THE SECOND, by the grace of God of The United ELIZABETH II, par la grace de Dieu, REINE du Royaume-Uni, du Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories, QUEEN, Canada et de ses autres royaumes et territoires, Chef du Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith. Commonwealth, Defenseur de la Foi.

PROCLAMATION PROCLAMATION

To our beloved and fa ithful the Members elected to serve in the A to us les fideles et loyaux deputes elus a 1, Assemblee legislative de Legislative Assembly of our Province of Manitoba, and to each and la province du Manitoba, et a tous et chacun d'entre vous, SALUT. every of you - GREETING. AT TENDU QUE nousjugeons opportun, sur l'avis et avec le con­ WHEREAS we have thought fit by and with the advice and con­ sentement du Conseil executif, de dissoudre l' Assemblee legislative sent of our Executive Council for Manitoba, to dissolve the present du Manitoba: Legislative Assembly of our said Province: SACHEZ DONC MAINTENANT QUE nous declarons et pro­ NOW KNOW YE THAT we do for that end publish this, our clanous, par les presentes, la dissolution de l' Assemblee legislative proclamation, and do hereby dissolve the Legislative Assembly du Manitoba et que, par consequent, les deputes de l'Assemblee leg­ accordingly, and the Members of the Legislative Assembly of islative sont dispenses d'assister a toute autre seance ou reunion de Manitoba, are discharged from further meeting and attendance in 1'Assemblee . connection therewith. EN FOI DE QUOI nous avons fa it delivrer les presentes lettres IN TESTIMONY WHEREOF We have caused these Our Letters patentes et a icelles fait apposer le Grand Sceau de notre province to be made Patent, and the Great Seal of Our Province of Manitoba du Manitoba. to be hereunto affixed; TEMOIN: Peter M. Liba, lieutenant-gouverneur de notre WITNESS, His Honour Peter M. Liba, Lieutenant Governor of province du Manitoba. Our said Province of Manitoba; EN NOTRE PA LAIS DU GOUVERNEMENT, a Winnipeg, au AT OUR GOVERNMENT HOUSE, at Our City of Winnipeg, in Manitoba, ce dix-septieme jour d'aofit de l'an de grace mil neuf cent the Province of Manitoba, this seventeenth day of August, in the quatre-vingt-dix-neuf, dans la quarante-huitieme annee de notre year of Our Lord one thousand nine hundred and ninety-nine, and in regne. the fo rty-eighth year of our Reign. PAR ORDRE. BY COMMAND, Le ministre de la Justice et procureur general, V.TOEWS, V.TOEWS. Minister of Justice and Attorney General.