Understanding Developmental/Structural Disruptions

MIAMI UNIVERSITY

The Graduate School

Certificate for Approving the Dissertation

We hereby approve the Dissertation

Julia Rachel Lonoff Schirm

Candidate for the Degree:

Doctor of Philosophy

______Director Dr. Larry Leitner

______Reader Dr. Ann Fuehrer

______Reader Dr. Vaishali Raval

______Graduate School Representative Dr. Paul Anderson

ABSTRACT

EXPERIENTIAL PERSONAL CONSTRUCT PSYCHOLOGY AND SEVERE DISTURBANCES: EXPLORING DEVELOPMENTAL/STRUCTURAL DISRUPTIONS IN SELF-OTHER PERMANENCE

by Julia R. L. Schirm

An experiential personal construct psychotherapy (EPCP) understanding of severe disturbances (e.g., “schizophrenia”) is based on the idea that early trauma (broadly construed) may disrupt children’s development of the ability to consistently experience self and others as permanent and persisting across time and space. Such developmental/structural disruptions in “self-other permanence” (SOP) may result in a range of subsequent difficulties including hallucinations and delusions because without permanence, one may experience things such as the self or external objects and/or persons (e.g., voices) disappearing and reappearing, seemingly at random. The purpose of the current study is to evaluate the usefulness of the EPCP concept of developmental/structural disruptions of SOP in understanding the experiences of people with severe disturbances. I interviewed five patients at an inpatient psychiatric hospital who were diagnosed with schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder, asking about their earliest memories, traumatic experiences, early relationships, current relationships, the history of their psychological difficulties, and how they ended up in the hospital. I constructed narratives for the participants, weaving together portions of the transcripts and interspersing my interpretations based on EPCP theory. The participants’ narratives strongly supported EPCP theory of developmental/structural disruptions. Participants’ struggles could be meaningfully conceptualized in terms of disruptions in SOP. They experienced significant early traumas, and these traumas were connected to difficulties with SOP. I also offer additional implications for EPCP theory, possibilities for elaborating EPCP theory, and areas of future research.

EXPERIENTIAL PERSONAL CONSTRUCT PSYCHOLOGY AND SEVERE DISTURBANCES: EXPLORING DEVELOPMENTAL/STRUCTURAL DISRUPTIONS IN SELF-OTHER PERMANENCE

A DISSERTATION

Submitted to the Faculty of

Miami University in partial

fulfillment of the requirements

for the degree of

Doctor of Philosophy

Department of Psychology

Julia Rachel Lonoff Schirm

Miami University

Oxford, Ohio

2013

Director: Dr. Larry M. Leitner

Table of Contents

Introduction………………………………………………………………...... ………………..1 Experiential Personal Construct Psychotherapy…………...…………………...... ………..2 Positioning the Researcher…………………………………………………………...... …..4 Developmental/Structural Disruption……………...…………………………………...... 5 Childhood development of construing…………...………………………...... ….….....6 Attachment theory……………...………………………….…………...……...... ….....8 Suspension……………...………………………….…………...……………...... …....9 Freezing and Developmental/Structural Disruption…………...……………...... ….11 Self Versus Other……………...………………………….…………...…....……...... …..20 Self-other Permanence……………...………………………….…………...... …...…..21 Developmental pathways……………...…………………………...... …………...... 23 Multiple internal working models…………………….…………...... …………....….24 Trauma and Schizophrenia……………………….………………...... ……….………….27 Associations between trauma and psychosis…………………...... …….…………....27 Psychosis and PTSD……………………….……………………….…...... …………31 Summary and Goals……………………….……………………….……………...... …....33 Method…..…………………….……………………….……………………...... ….………..34 Participants……………………….……………………….………………………...... …..34 Interviews……………………….……………………….…………...... ………...... …36 Writing exercise……………………….……………………...... ….………………...37 Analysis……………………….……………………….……...... ………………….……..37 Structure of Results………………………………………...... ………………………..….38 Results…..…………………………………………………...... ……………………………..39 James……………………………………………………...... ………………………….....39 Brief description…………………………………...... …………………………...... 39 Narrative………………………………………………………...... ………………....41 Summary……………………………………………………...... …………………....79 Andrew……………………………………………………………...... …………………..80 Brief description….…………………………………………...... …………………....80 Narrative……………………………………………………...... ………………..…..82 Summary…………………………………………………...... ……………………..121 Alisha…………………………………………………………...... ……………………..123 Brief description……………………………………………………...... …………...123 Narrative……………………………………………………………...... …………..125 Summary…………………………………………………………...... …………….172 Michael…………………………………………………………………...... …………...174 Brief description……………………………………………………...... ………...... 174 Narrative……………………………………………………………...... …………..175 Summary……………………………………………………………………...... …..202 Cara…………………………………………………………………………………...... 204 Brief description…………………………………………………...... ……………...204 Narrative…………………………………………………………...... ……………..206 Summary……………………………………………………...... ………………...... 238 Discussion…………………………………………………………...... …………………....241

Limitations……………………………………………………………...... ……………..243 Implications for EPCP Theory and Future Research………………...... …………...... …243 Developmental/structural disruptions are not absolute…………...... ………………245 Continuum of SOP accomplishment/disruption……………………………...... 246 Understanding differences in SOP accomplishment/disruption………...... ……...... 247 Understanding differences in severity of disturbance and emergence of SOP difficulties………....…………………………...... ………………………………....253 Self-other permanence and adulthood………...... ……………………………....….257 Conclusion…………………………………...... …………………………………...... 258 References...………………………………………………………...... …………………….259 Appendix A....………………………………………………………...... …………………..266 Appendix B....………………………………………………………...... …………………..268 Appendix C....…………………………………………………………...... ………………..269 Appendix D....…………………………………………………………...... ………………..270 Appendix E....……………………………………………………...... ……………………..271 Appendix F....………………………………………………...... …………………………..272 Appendix G....………………………………………………………………...... …………..346 Appendix H....………………………………………………...... ………………………..…..424 Appendix I....……………...... ……………………………………………………………...513 Appendix J....…………...... ………………………………………………………………...579

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Acknowledgements

I am profoundly grateful for the people who have supported me in getting to this point and in completing this project. First, I want to thank my mentor, Larry. Words cannot express how grateful I am to you for believing in, encouraging, teaching, and guiding me throughout this project and my years in graduate school. Without you, I would not be the clinician, researcher, or person I am today. John, thank you for your love, patience, and encouragement as you have supported me in pursuing my doctorate. It has been a long journey and I could not have asked for a more wonderful husband. Thank you for helping me make this dream, and so many more, a reality. Thank you Mom, Dad, and David, for your unconditional and unwavering love and support. Myev, Rachel, Rebecca, Stephanie, and Naomi, your friendship means the world to me and has sustained me throughout this process. Thank you for listening, sharing, loving and accepting me, and being the amazing women you are. I want to thank Alisha, Andrew, Cara, James, and Michael for courageously and generously sharing their experiences with me. This project would not have been possible without their participation. I am grateful to Ann, Paul, and Vaishali for serving on my committee(s) and providing thoughtful feedback. Finally, thank you to the Director of Psychological Services at Woodside State Hospital for helping me conduct my research there.

Experiential personal construct psychology and severe disturbances: Exploring developmental/structural disruptions in self-other permanence There are many theoretical explanations for severe psychopathology (e.g., people diagnosed as schizophrenics, borderline, and bi-polar). An experiential personal construct psychotherapy (EPCP) understanding is based on the idea that early trauma (broadly construed) may disrupt children’s development of the ability to consistently experience self and others as permanent and persisting across time and space. Such developmental/structural disruptions in self-other permanence (SOP) may result in a range of subsequent difficulties including hallucinations and delusions. Leitner (2013) explained: “If neither myself nor others have a permanence I can depend upon, my experiences and my sense of self may fracture into disconnected segments. Hallucinations can come and go randomly, not tightly connected to outside events” (p.122). To date, no one has systematically tested this area of EPCP theory against people’s lived experiences. The purpose of the current study is to evaluate the utility of the EPCP concept of developmental/structural disruptions of SOP in understanding the experiences of people with severe psychological struggles. By presenting detailed narratives of participants early (traumatic) experiences and current psychological difficulties, I aim to provide readers with a compelling account of how early trauma is associated with subsequent severe psychopathology and how symptoms may be meaningfully understood as struggles with SOP. In order to understand the current study, there are several topics I need to review. I start by briefly introducing the reader to the basic tenets of EPCP theory because the entire study is based on EPCP theory. Then I will describe in greater depth how developmental/structural disruptions occur and what they are because in order to evaluate EPCP theory against participants’ experiences, we must have a deeper understanding of the theoretical concepts. (EPCP theory uses the term developmental/structural arrest. I use the term disruption instead because disruption more readily lends itself to conceptualizing development and behavior as fluid, flexible, context dependent, and susceptible to subsequent influences rather than as static, deterministic, and universal.) The extant EPCP literature on developmental/ structural disruptions is not specific regarding traumas that may disrupt development and the process by which trauma disrupts development. Therefore, I draw on attachment theory to elaborate, as it also describes how early trauma may disrupt or interfere with development, but in greater depth (e.g., Bowlby, 1988; Bretherton, 1992; Holmes, 2004).

In particular, attachment theory elucidates more subtle traumas. The current study is retrospective, relying on participants’ recollections of early memories. We cannot go back and observe whether more subtle traumas occurred. Nonetheless, having an understanding of these dynamics helps us appreciate the extensiveness of participants’ early traumatic experiences, as, in addition to reports of numerous overt traumas, we can intuit the likely presence of additional subtle trauma from the ways they describe their relationships with caregivers. After explaining developmental/structural disruptions, I briefly describe the construct of self-versus other and developmental/structural disruptions of self-versus other because self- versus other plays a tangential role in some narratives. Then I focus on self-other permanence (SOP), the construct which is most relevant to an EPCP understanding of participants’ struggles, discussing both normal development and manifestations of developmental/structural disruptions in SOP. I continue using attachment theory to elaborate the concept of SOP. Finally, I will review additional research not affiliated with EPCP that supports associations between severe psychopathology (i.e., schizophrenia) and trauma. Experiential Personal Construct Psychotherapy Experiential Personal Construct Psychotherapy (Leitner, 1988) is based on an elaboration of George Kelly’s (1955) Personal Construct Psychology Sociality Corollary: “to the extent that one person construes the construction processes of another, he [or she] may play a role in a social process involving the other person” (p. 95). Consistent with other constructivist theories, EPCP assumes “reality” is something we each construct through our interactions with the world. There is a real world for us to construe, and we are free to construe it in many different ways. From this perspective, a person’s meaning system is not judged by how it measures up to some external truth, but rather by how useful it is (Leitner, 2009). The term experiential was added to differentiate EPCP from constructivist therapies resembling Cognitive Behavioral Therapy and to emphasize the importance of experience. Specifically, EPCP is concerned with our experiences in relationships. In order for us to experience the full richness that life has to offer, we must be able to connect to others in a deep and meaningful way. We form such ROLE relationships (as opposed to relationships based on perfunctory social roles) when we risk sharing our most central meanings, or core constructs as Kelly (1955) referred to them, with another person. Core constructs are those meanings that define who we are. Kelly (1955) emphasized that core constructs are “vital to one’s personal

identity” (p.1188); they “reach down deeply into our vital processes” and “sustain even the most autonomic life functions” (p. 909). When another validates our process of meaning making, we have the profound and “aweful” experience of being known and accepted (Leitner & Faidley, 1995). However, if the other invalidates us at such a fundamental level, we may experience that invalidation as threatening our very existence. Leitner (1985) used the term “terror” to refer to the powerful emotions, such as, “anxiety, threat, fear, hostility, and guilt” (p. 88) associated with ROLE relationship invalidations. If we have been terribly injured in relationships, we may feel that the risks involved in connecting are too great, and therefore decide to protect ourselves by limiting or avoiding intimate connection. Such a strategy keeps us safe from further injury at the price of living a life that feels empty and meaningless. Thus, we all face the dilemma of wanting and needing deep meaningful relationships, while also fearing the potential devastation should we risk connecting and be invalidated. We all must choose between risking intimate connection in spite of the terror, or leading a safe but empty existence (Leitner, 1988; 1999b). EPCP understands psychological health in terms of one’s ability to form ROLE relationships (Leitner, Faidley, & Celentana, 2000). In this context, symptoms are understood as meaningful communications about our struggles to navigate this balance between connection and retreat (Leitner et al., 2000; Leitner et al., 2005). EPCP’s approach to psychopathology and symptoms is different from the predominant medical model or biomedical approach (Kahr, 2012). The medical model conceptualizes psychopathology in terms of mental diseases, presuming both biological etiology and treatment (Bassman, 2005). Psychiatrists developed the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (5th ed.; DSM-5; American Psychiatric Association [APA], 2013), which allows clinicians to diagnose pathology categorically in terms of the presence of specified symptoms that cause impairment. In the manual’s preface, editors explained, “This edition of DSM was designed first and foremost to be a useful guide to clinical practice,” and the “DSM is intended to serve as a practical, functional, and flexible guide for organizing information that can aid in the accurate diagnosis and treatment of mental disorders” (APA, 2013, p. xli). Treatment is focused on the reduction or elimination of symptoms and the particular treatment approach is dictated by an accurate DSM diagnosis. Among the diagnoses

we are likely to come across in a psychiatric hospital (e.g., schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, bi-polar disorder, borderline personality disorder, major depressive disorder, substance abuse disorders) there is no mention of trauma as a cause. In fact, in the DSM-5 strives to be theoretically neutral regarding etiology, focusing instead on describing and categorizing. Posttraumatic stress disorder is a notable exception as it is by definition a reaction to a traumatic event. The mainstream medical model views schizophrenia as a chronic, debilitating brain disease that requires chemical treatments (Bassman, 1997, 2005; Kahr, 2012). There is no mention of trauma. Whitaker (2010) described psychiatry’s adoption of biological psychiatry in the 1980’s and the rise of the public perception that psychiatric illness involves faulty brain biochemistry. He cited Andreasen’s (1984) book, entitled The broken brain, in which she wrote: “The major psychiatric illnesses are diseases. They should be considered medical illnesses just as diabetes, heart disease, and cancer are. The emphasis is on carefully diagnosing each specific illness from which the patient suffers” (Andreasen, 1984, as cited in Whitaker, 2010, p. 275). Despite a lack of evidence for biological etiology, the “broken brain”, or medical model, view of schizophrenia and other psychiatric disorders remains (Read & Gumley, 2008; Whitaker, 2010). Alternative understandings of severe psychopathology and its possible causes, such as trauma, remain marginalized; drug companies continue to develop neuroleptics and market their use for treating schizophrenia. In fact, psychiatrists who attempt to promote alternatives and question the biological psychiatry narrative, such as Loren Mosher and Peter Breggin, have been met with hostility and censure (Whitaker, 2010). Positioning the Researcher In my view as an EPCP clinician, the medical model ignores important contextual information. I take issue with the DSM’s approach because, for me, it provides a limited, reductionistic snapshot of specific symptoms people are experiencing at a given point in time. A DSM-5 diagnosis tells me nothing about how people came to be where they are, their histories, or their struggles and successes in connecting to others. Without an understanding of the context in which peoples’ struggles arise and a theory to conceptualize their experiences, I have a limited basis from which to connect with them and begin to work with them on making meaning out of their experiences. I believe that people do not simply wake up one day and suddenly decide to become psychotic (or depressed or anxious, etc.) There are reasons for why we struggle. If we

understand the origins and purposes of our symptoms, we can find more satisfying and enriching ways of approaching our relationships. I approached this study from my EPCP perspective. I am critical of the medical model. I reject the predominant medical model view that people who receive the label schizophrenia have broken brains. I believe that pharmaceuticals are overused and purposefully refer to these chemicals as “drugs” rather than medicine because I question the evidence for their efficacy (Whitaker, 2002, 2010). I believe people struggle for a reason and that their difficulties make sense within the larger context of their lives. Thus, I listened for and expected to find trauma in participants’ narratives. I expected participants’ symptoms to be meaningful and have some basis in their experiences. I want to be explicit about my theoretical perspective and my criticisms of the predominant medical model so that the reader is aware of the biases I bring to this study. My agenda undoubtedly influenced the way I approached interviews. I provide extensive excerpts from the interviews so that the reader may judge my interpretations against the participants’ experiences. Ultimately, I leave it to the reader to come to his or her own evaluation of this project. Developmental/Structural Disruption Experiential personal construct psychotherapy (EPCP) researchers developed a transitive, three-axis diagnostic system (Leitner & Faidley, 2002; Leitner, Faidley, & Celentana, 2000). The first axis describes developmental/structural arrests (what I am calling disruptions) of critical interpersonal constructs (Faidley, 2001; Leitner, 1997, 2009, 2013; Leitner et al., 2000; Leitner & Faidley, 2002; Leitner et al., 2005; Leitner & Thomas, 2003). In order to be able to form meaningful relationships with others, there are foundational constructs we all must develop. First, we must develop a sense of self versus other, a sense that self and others are separate and distinct volitional beings capable of interacting. Second, we must develop self-other permanence, the sense that self and other persist across time and when out of sight and/or mind. Finally, we must develop self-other constancy, the ability to integrate experiences of self and other into coherent representations across variations in mood, behavior, and appearance. EPCP conceptualizes severe pathology as struggles with self-other permanence and less severe pathology as struggles with self-other constancy. As I mentioned, later on I will describe self- versus other and self-other permanence. I will not return to self-other constancy because,

consistent with EPCP theory, it was not relevant to the struggles of the severely disturbed persons who participated in my study. According to EPCP theory, developmental/structural disruptions occur when early trauma interferes with our developing these constructs. Essentially, early trauma overwhelms and freezes our meaning-making processes, disturbing our development of these constructs and leading to developmental/structural disruptions. In other words, early trauma may prevent our construal process from developing, distorting development and leaving us with simple, childlike ways of construing self and other. The most debilitating disruptions in SOP occur in response to early trauma. Thus, in order to understand childhood vulnerability and the disruption process, we need to examine children’s construing. Childhood development of construing. Starting in childhood, construing develops over the course of our lifetimes. Children’s construing is qualitatively different from adults’ (Leitner, Faidley, Celentana, 2000), in that it is much more simple and concrete. Prior to age 7, children predominantly construe others in terms of their appearance and the social role they play (Barratt, 1977). Someone is “tall” or “my mother.” Between the ages of 6 to 8 years, children’s construing of others shifts to focusing on behaviors. Then, at around ages 11 to 13, adolescents shift from construing others in terms of behavior to personality (Barratt, 1977; Klion & Leitner, 1985). Going back further, our earliest construing occurs before we develop language and is “originally designed to construe those elements of which an infant could be aware” (Kelly, 1955, p. 461). This preverbal construing is not attached to word symbols, making it difficult to verbalize later on (Kelly, 1955). Preverbal construing may be understood as what Langer (1951) termed “presentational symbolism,” which refers to “conceptualizations made by our sense functions when they selectively perceive and organize the profluence of sensations with which we are constantly in contact” (Faidley, 2001, p. 142). Without verbal symbolization, preverbal (and nonverbal) constructs remain at a lower level of awareness. When, as adults, we struggle to find words for experiences, this often signifies that preverbal constructs are involved. We are generally unaware of the ways they continue to influence our construing, as preverbal constructs are symbolized as “sensations and associations” (Faidley, 2001, p. 143). As we develop, early constructs are not erased, but are instead replaced by new ones (Leitner, 1997). Thus, we retain these preverbal ways of symbolizing experience. Kelly (1955) suggested that preverbal constructs form the core meanings we use to understand self, other, and

the world. Kelly cautions that, due to their foundational nature, “the therapist should therefore not be surprised to find a client using a preverbal type of construction to maintain his integrity and unique identity in the face of difficulties” (1955, p. 461). Much of our early preverbal construing involves dependency constructs, defined as “the constructs by which certain persons are constructed by the child in relation to his own survival” (Kelly, 1955, p. 669). Dependency constructs connect experiences of having one’s needs met with particular persons. We form our early dependency constructs in the context of our families. Starting from our earliest relational experiences, we begin to form the constructs (Leitner, 2013), or working models, as Bowlby (1969/1982, 1973, 1988) refers to them, that we use to predict and understand all future experiences of self, others, and relationships. Kelly (1955) pointed out that, while we generally think of adults as independent and children as dependent, we never outgrow dependence on others. Rather, as we grow older, we are able to disperse our needs across more people so that we are not relying on one or two people to meet all of our needs. Unlike adults, children necessarily depend on a few people to meet all of their needs. Children’s construing is “relatively monolithic, undifferentiated, lacking in the incidental construing that is part of a mature dispersed construing system” (Walker, 1993, p. 66). Kelly (1955) described children’s construing as impermeable and preemptive. Impermeability refers to the inability of a construct to admit new elements. Children’s tendencies to see their mothers and fathers as the only ones who can meet their needs indicate that their construct of caretakers is impermeable. In other words, very few elements (e.g., just mother and father) are construed as caretakers. For example, a child may feel that his mother is the one and only person who can provide him with food, whereas, as an adult, he fulfills his need for food from multiple sources. Preemptive construing occurs when a person construes an element using one, and only one construct. Children tend to preemptively construe their parents, limiting their understanding of their parents to those parental roles of meeting their needs. For example, a young girl only thinks of her mother as her mother. She does not construe her mother in terms of being a lawyer, a wife, a sister, or a piano player. Thus, we form our earliest understandings of self and other using the simple, concrete, preemptive, and impermeable construing of childhood. Children’s impermeable and preemptive construing has profound implications for early trauma. Children, in all likelihood, will impermeably construe their caregivers as the only ones who can meet their needs. Thus, we can imagine how horrifying and difficult it would be for children to attempt to

make meaning out of abusive and cruel caregiver behavior as they feel their very survival depends on these caregivers. Furthermore, given children’s preemptive construing, or tendency to see others in only one role, they will struggle to make sense out of how a parent can be both a caregiver and an abuser. Attachment theory also focuses on the child-caregiver relationship (i.e., the child’s attachment to the caregiver) in understanding development and psychopathology. I will draw from attachment theory when I explain how early trauma disrupts development because it provides further theoretical support and additional depth, especially in terms of specifying more subtle traumas. Before I can do so, I need to provide an overview of attachment theory. Attachment theory. Attachment theory (Bowlby, 1969, 1973, 1980) suggests that infants and parents are predisposed to form attachments, or affective bonds, between each other. Attachment behaviors are adaptive. They are supposed to elicit caretaking from adults, thus ensuring protection, comfort, and survival. Children are alert to maintaining a comfortable level of proximity to caretakers (Bowlby, 1969, 1973, 1980; Main, 2000). When afraid, children seek out their attachment figures as a source of comfort and safety (Bowlby, 1969, 1973, 1980; Main, 2000). Under non-threatening circumstances, children maintain proximity to attachment figures. When distance between a child and attachment figure exceeds the child’s comfort, the child’s attachment behavior is activated in order to bring the child back within acceptable proximity (Bowlby, 1969, 1973, 1980; Main, 2000). Children may use the attachment figure as a secure base, venturing out to explore at increasing distances as they get older (Bowlby, 1980; Main, 2000). Our experiences in early attachment relationships lead to the development of internal working models (IWMs), or representations of self, other and relationships, that we apply to subsequent relationships. Depending on the patterns of interaction between infants’ behaviors and caregivers’ responsiveness and behavior, we develop a particular attachment style. When parents are consistently and reliably responsive to our needs, we develop secure attachment. Secure attachment is associated with “a positive, coherent, and consistent self-image and a sense of being worthy of love, combined with a positive expectation that significant others will be generally accepting and responsive” (Agrawal, Gunderson, Holmes, & Lyons-Ruth, 2004, p. 95). When parents are inconsistent, neglectful, rejecting or critical, an infant may develop a model of others as uncaring, unreliable and unavailable (Levy, 2005).

Ainsworth, Blehar, Waters and Wall (1978) developed the Strange Situation procedure in order to observe infant attachment behavior. The Strange Situation involved observing a baby and his or her mother in several separation and reunion scenarios. First the mother and baby play in the experimental room. Then, a stranger enters and approaches the baby. The mother leaves for a few minutes. The mother returns and is instructed to engage her baby with the toys again and the stranger leaves. Then the mother leaves again, leaving the baby alone. Finally, the stranger returns before the mother returns. The Strange Situation allows for researchers to observe differences in infant behavior as increasingly distressing scenarios activate attachment behavior (Weinfeld, Sroufe, Egeland, & Carlson, 2008). Based on their observations of infants’ reactions to separations from parents in the Strange Situation, Ainsworth and colleagues (1978) identified three attachment styles: secure, insecure-avoidant, and insecure-anxious/ambivalent. Subsequently, disorganized style was added as a fourth classification. After a separation, secure infants “seek comforting contact with the caregiver” (Westen, Nakash, Cannon, & Bradley, 2006, p. 1065). Insecure-avoidant infants “are indifferent or ignore the return of the caregiver” (Westen et al., 2006, p. 1065). Insecure- anxious/ambivalent infants “seek contact with the caregiver but fail to be soothed by him or her” (Westen et al., 2006, p. 1065). Disorganized attachment is “characterized by the lack of a coherent pattern of responding to separation and reunion, contradictory behavior patterns, disorganization, and disorientation” (Westen et al., 2006, p. 1065). I will be focusing on disorganized attachment because it essentially describes the process of freezing and disruption. Disorganized attachment is also most relevant to the current study because it is associated with more severe early injuries and difficulties in adulthood. The literature on disorganized attachment is also useful because it describes a number of subtle injuries that can be traumatic. Suspension. Before I continue my discussion of how development is disrupted, it will be helpful to explain the concepts of suspension and freezing of the meaning making process. In order to construe an experience, a person’s meaning making system must have a way of making sense of, or incorporating, that experience into the system. Kelly (1955) suggested that rather than being repressed, forgotten or dissociated, experiences may be suspended or “held in abeyance” if they are incompatible with our current meaning making systems (p. 473). Suspended experiences remain at a lower level of awareness until our systems can tolerate their implications, at which point, we may construe them (Leitner et al., 2000). To put it another way,

we may be able to make meaning out of them once our system has evolved and increased in complexity. Kelly (1955) differentiated suspension from conceptualizations of repression based on “remembering what is pleasant or forgetting what is unpleasant” (p. 473). For Kelly, “suspension implies that the idea or element of experience is forgotten simply because the person can, at the moment, tolerate no structure within which the idea would have meaning” (1955, p. 473). Suspension involves threat (Leitner et al., 2000). Threat indicates that meanings are “incompatible with higher-order constructs upon which the person is dependent for his [or her] living” (Kelly, 1955, p. 166). Thus, experiences are suspended because their implications are so intolerable that to construe them threatens core constructs, the very meanings we depend on to define ourselves and maintain our basic processes. In other words, to construe the implications of an event may threaten our existence. Kelly (1955) clarified, “ideas are not suspended because of their intrinsic nature but rather because their implications are intolerable” (p. 474). It is not just the experiences themselves, but their intolerable implications we cannot construe. An EPCP understanding of trauma is based around the individual experiencing such intolerably threatening events (Leitner et al., 2000). We find this idea of break down in meaning making in other constructivist writings on trauma. For example, Sewell (2005) characterized traumatic experiences as: (1) disrupting a person’s sense of being able to predict (i.e., make meaning) or replacing the order of their world with chaos, and (2) invalidating important constructions of self and relation to the world. Bowlby (1980) describes a similar process, “defensive exclusion,” whereby information that would cause a person pain if he or she were to consciously process it, is excluded or prevented from reaching a conscious level of processing until a much later date or perhaps indefinitely. Bowlby (1988) suggests that the types of experiences that are often “shut off” include: “(a) those that parents wish their children not to know about; (b) those in which parents have treated children in ways the children find too unbearable to think about” (p. 101); and actions or thoughts arousing strong feelings of guilt or shame. Subsequent research on memory supports Bowlby’s concept of defensive exclusion. When compared to people without a history of sexual abuse, survivors of childhood sexual abuse adopted a “nonspecific memory retrieval style as a way of avoiding unpleasant and intrusive specific memories” (Toth et al., 2011, p. 358).

In particular, the idea that children might find mistreatment from their parents unbearable to think about and therefore shut off processing of it corresponds to Kelly’s (1955) idea that events with implications that are intolerable may be suspended from construing. Both Bowlby and Kelly suggest that, in order to survive events that would be intolerable or unbearable if consciously processed, those experiences may be excluded or suspended from conscious awareness. Bowlby (1980, 1988) gives the example of an 11-year-old girl whose mother was physically and emotionally abusive. The girl ended up wandering in a confused state and had no access to several years of memories, including her mother’s death, until she was in therapy for a few years. The girl explained “‘I blotted out all feelings – things happened that were more than I could endure – I had to keep going. If I had really let things hit me, I wouldn’t be here. I’d be dead or in a mental hospital’” (p. 114). Bowlby (1988) proposed that the consequences of enduring parental maltreatment so unbearable that it must be defensively excluded may result, on the less severe end, in “narcissism or false self” and the more extreme end with psychosis and profound fragmentation of identity (e.g., dissociative identity disorder) (p. 113). Described in EPCP terms, the consequences would range from self-other constancy issues, on the less severe end, to self-other permanence issues, on the more severe end. Experiences likely to lead to defensive exclusion include: “repeated rejection by parents combined with contempt for a child’s desire for love, care, and comforting, and, especially in the more severe forms, physical violence (battering), repeated and sometimes systematic, and sexual exploitation …” (Bowlby, 1988, p. 113). The critical point is that more subtle experiences, such as parental rejection and contempt, can be so unbearable as to require defensive exclusion or suspension. Freezing and Developmental/Structural Disruption. Now that we understand how traumatic events, due to their threatening nature, may be suspended and reside at lower levels of awareness, we will move on to discussing a consequence of trauma- disruption. Kelly (1955) stated that “It is correct to say of traumatic experience that it usually ‘freezes people in their tracks” (p. 168). Freezing is different than suspending an event in that it has to do with a stoppage of the meaning-making process altogether. In response to a traumatic event, a person’s meaning making process may “freeze” in a way that suspends construing of the event (Leitner, 1999a). We struggle to make meaning out of events that have been suspended because, as explained above, suspended events are construed at lower levels of awareness. The traumatic

event is suspended and the process of making meaning of the event is frozen because the person’s core constructs would be threatened should the person construe the implications of the event. This cessation of conscious experience so that any construing is at a low level of awareness roughly corresponds to experiences elsewhere described as dissociation. Other aspects of meaning-making will continue to develop; however, subsequent “events that are seen as resembling the original trauma may result in the meaning-making process shutting down again” because “the original event was so injuring to the self that we attempt to stop further damage by freezing when similar events are encountered” (Leitner, 1999a, p. 248). Thus, when development is disrupted, the person is left with vulnerabilities. Subsequent development and construing are likely to be affected, as the person will struggle with construing later experiences resembling the original injuries. However, in the context of a safe relationship, the person may be able to make meaning out of the original injuries. I do not believe that participation in the present study recapitulated participants’ prior injuries; however, I did invite participants to talk about earlier injuries/traumas. Therefore, in the present study, we might expect to see participants’ vulnerabilities triggered when they talked about early injuries or subsequent experiences that felt similar to the early injuries that initially led to freezing. Thus, one way of inferring what originally injured participants is to look at what causes them to struggle with SOP in the moment. Recall that children’s construing is simple, concrete, and tends to focus on dependency (i.e., survival). We are more likely to see freezing more around childhood trauma because “one may be less able to tolerate the implications of events that threaten the very nature of one’s relationships with parents and other people who can literally hold one’s lives in their hands” (Leitner et al., 2000, p. 179). The implications of both direct threats to survival (such as physical violence) and losing connections to caretakers are likely to be intolerable for children. Overtly threatening behavior requires little explanation, as it should not be hard for us to imagine how overwhelmingly horrifying and terrifying it must be to depend on unreliable and violent adults for survival. The implications of losing connections to caregivers are overwhelming because children are dependent on a limited number of others for survival. Bowlby (1988) argued from an evolutionary perspective that, in order to survive, children must have caregivers who are available and responsive, particularly in dangerous situations. He noted that “it is not surprising, therefore, that a failure in response of his [or her] familiar caregiver, whether due to physical

absence or a failure to respond appropriately, should always cause stress and sometimes be traumatic” (Bowlby, 1988, p. 165). When our very survival is dependent on the care of important attachment figures, it becomes easier to understand why actual or threatened separation from or loss of these figures could feel intolerably threatening and be experienced as trauma. Bowlby (1980) pointed out, “whereas most adults have learned that they can survive without the more or less continuous presence of an attachment figure, children have no such experience” (p. 290). Throughout our lives, we may suspend events and freeze aspects of meaning making in response to trauma. However, trauma that freezes our meaning making prior to or during the major tasks of developing fundamental interpersonal constructs leaves us with the limited understandings we have at that point in time and affects our development going forward. This is what EPCP theorists consider a developmental/structural disruption. Other areas of construing will continue to develop, but those meanings related to the disruption remain frozen, and we continue to see the world in some of the ways we did when the developmental/structural disruption occurred. Constructs develop in successive order. Earlier disruptions interfere with the development of subsequent constructs. In other words, if, for example I do not master permanence, I am going to struggle with constancy and will continue to see the world the way I did when the developmental/structural disruption occurred. The severity of the disruption will depend on how early the relational trauma started, the nature of the trauma, and the pervasiveness of the relational trauma (e.g., were all caregivers problematic or were some less damaging). If a person experiences more healthy and nurturing relationships in addition to the traumatic ones, his or her developmental trajectory will likely be less negatively impacted by developmental/structural disruptions. Returning to preemptive childhood construing to illustrate: small children will struggle to understand abusive parents because they can only construe others in one role (caregiver or abuser). When they are older and able to tolerate more complexity (and also feel less threatened because they no longer depend on their parents for survival), they may be able to make meaning out of having parents who were both caregivers and abusers. The early freezing of their meaning making may result in a developmental/structural disruption, which we would then see in later struggles with SOP (or self-other constancy). As an example of the consequences of disruptions in SOP, some people may intellectually understand that their parents (i.e., caregivers) abused them; however, their descriptions of their parents may vacillate between caregiver and abuser,

resulting in contradictions that they are unaware of (e.g., saying “my parents were good” and “my parents beat me mercilessly”). In more extreme cases, people may never integrate their experiences of their parents, leaving them believing that they literally had two sets of parents: the “good” ones and the “bad” ones. Furthermore, developmental/structural disruptions are not all or nothing. As our construing develops, there are transitional periods where we are starting to use a newer way of construing, but may revert back to the older way if too many demands are placed on us (Klion & Leitner, 1985; Leitner et al., 2000). If a disruption occurs while I am in the process of developing a construct but before I have fully mastered it, I may look quite healthy and like I have it down when life is calm. However, I may not be able to hold onto this ability when life is more demanding, leading to a marked deterioration. Also, whether or not the consequences of disruption (i.e., symptoms) are manifested may depend on the situation a person is in. Recall that subsequent experiences resembling the original injury are likely to shut down a person’s process again. Thus, in contexts that are different from the original injury, the disruption may be less disturbing or problematic. Attachment theory also provides an account of traumatic experience limiting or disrupting development. Internal working models are developed from relational experiences and subject to modification based on new experiences. However, if information is defensively excluded due to its threatening nature, internal working models cannot be revised. Bretherton (1992) explained, “The adequacy of internal working models can be seriously undermined… when defensive exclusion of information from awareness interferes with their updating in response to developmental and environmental change” (p. 768). In other words, traumatic experiences may be defensively excluded, (i.e., suspended). Defensive exclusion prevents modification of internal working models, or, in EPCP terms, the meaning making process freezes. When trauma disrupts development, the person is left with early, inadequate internal working models and/or multiple conflicting models. I will say more about multiple models in the following discussion of disorganized attachment and consequences of early trauma. Disorganized attachment. Recent research on the nature and origins of disorganized attachment offers additional insight into early relational experiences, specifically those involving more subtle frightening parent behavior, that may lead to freezing. Understanding more subtle trauma is important for deepening our knowledge of the range of injuries that can disrupt

development. According to Holmes (2004), disorganized attachment results from an “approach- avoidance dilemma” (p.182). When distressed or frightened, a child seeks out an attachment figure for soothing, comfort, and reassurance. The attachment figure is supposed to be a secure base, providing a sense of safety. When the attachment figure is also the source of the child’s fear, the child faces an unsolvable dilemma. The child has no consistent strategy for alleviating distress (Holmes, 2004). Similarly, Hesse and Main (2000, 2006) developed the term “fright without solution” to refer to situations where the attachment figure’s “FR (frightened/frightening) parental behavior inevitably puts the infant in a behaviorally irresolvable situation in which the attachment figure simultaneously becomes both the haven of safety and the source of the alarm” (p. 310). The drive to seek out the attachment figure when afraid is innate, and, therefore, the infant will seek contact with the attachment figure even if that attachment figure is the source of the infant’s alarm (Hesse & Main, 2006). The infant will experience simultaneous and contradictory urges to escape from (flight) and also to seek out the same attachment figure. Hesse and Maine (2006) explained, “the attached infant is biologically rather than externally driven to perceive/respond to this single element of the environment in completely opposing ways” (p. 338, emphasis in original). An infant faced with inescapable terror displays “disorganized/disoriented” attachment behaviors such as: alternating between contradictory behavioral strategies (e.g., approach, avoid); behaving in contradictory ways at the same time (e.g., smiling while suddenly striking the parent’s face); behaving in “undirected, misdirected, incomplete, and interrupted movements and expressions”; “stereotypies, asymmetrical movements, mistimed movement, and anomalous postures”; “freezing, stilling, and slowed movements and expressions”; “direct indices of apprehension regarding the parent”; and “direct indices of disorganization and disorientation” (Hesse & Main, 2006, p. 313). Attachment theory might therefore suggest, when you see a person engage in these sorts of behaviors, you are seeing signs of disruption in SOP. The disorganization, disorientation, confusion, and freezing speak to the infant’s inability to make meaning out of experiencing their source of comfort as simultaneously a source of threat. Recall that Kelly and Bowlby argued that we suspend or defensively exclude traumatic events that would be intolerable or unbearable for us to consciously process. Due to their overwhelmingly threatening and inescapable nature, experiences of “fright without solution” are likely to be traumatic, leading to suspension and freezing. Liotti (2006) supports this conclusion, writing, “A

fright without solution interaction, even when devoid of violence or abuse, is akin to a traumatic event” (p. 57). Repeated experiences of “fright without solution” “may be beyond the infant’s capacity for serial processing, and thus encourage propensities toward developing divided and relatively independent/dissociated mental processes” which may momentarily control behavior (Hesse & Main, 2006, p. 339). By alternating between dissociated processes, a person solves the “relational paradox” of having an attachment figure who is simultaneously a source of fear and of comfort. Hesse and Main (2006) concluded, “one consciousness cannot solve this paradox, but a divided consciousness can” (p. 339). Drawing on the attachment concept of internal working models, these dissociated processes are likely operating based on multiple internal working models of self and other, such that, “early experiences with a frightened or frightening caregiver cause a child to develop multiple, incompatible models of the self and the other” (Dozier, Stovall-McClough & Albus, 2008, p. 729). Dozier and colleagues (2008) explained: In interactions with the caregiver, the child experiences rapid shifts in which the caregiver is at first frightened, then no longer frightened, then caring for the child. With each shift, a different model of the self (perpetrator of fright, rescuer, loved child) and of the caregiver (victim, rescued victim, competent caregiver) is operative. These multiple models of the self and other cannot be integrated by young children and are retained as multiple models. (p. 729) EPCP understanding of disorganized attachment. In EPCP terms, the infant is unable to make meaning out of “fright without solution” experiences because to construe the source of comfort (and survival) as also the source of fear is too threatening. Recall that children construe in a concrete, all-or-nothing manner. Their style of construing makes it more likely that they will experience overwhelming threat because they may feel that they completely lose one of a limited number of sources of comfort and support. The dissociation may be thought of as suspension and freezing (i.e., developmental/structural disruption) and the subsequent alternating between parts of a divided consciousness (i.e., multiple models) as the consequences of the developmental/structural disruption. The severity and scope of the subsequent alternating (i.e., whether the person struggles with permanence or constancy) will vary depending on how early, how frequent, and how severe the “fright without solution” was. Consistent with the concept of freezing in response to subsequent events that are similar to earlier traumas, disorganized

attachment is associated with dissociation (Dozier et al., 2008; Lyons-Ruth & Jacobvitz, 2008; Sroufe, Carlson, Levy, & Egeland, 1999; van IJzendoorn, Schuengel, & Bakermans-Kranenburg, 1999; Weinfield et al., 2008). I will reserve more in-depth discussion of the consequences for my later discussion of developmental/structural disruptions of permanence. I will also return to the role of multiple internal working models when I discuss attachment and permanence. Origins of disorganized attachment. At this point I will discuss the specific origins of disorganized attachment, focusing on the more subtle causes in order to deepen our understanding of the sorts of subtle early injuries that may disrupt development. Disorganized attachment is frequently found in infants that have been maltreated (Cicchetti & Toth, 1995; Hesse & Main, 2006; Lyons-Ruth & Jacobvitz, 2008; Main, 1996; Toth, Harris, Goodman & Cicchetti, 2011; van IJzendoorn et al., 1999). This developmental path is not surprising, because these infants have no choice but to be attached to the abusive parents who frighten them; essentially, if there are no stable or consistent caregivers, infants will form an attachment to caregivers, regardless of the quality of care (Weinfield, Sroufe, Egeland, & Carlson, 2008). However, disorganized attachment is also found in 15-33% of “low-risk” samples (i.e., children with parents who are unlikely to have abused them) (Hesse & Main, 2006). Researchers were puzzled that children who were not overtly abused were developing disorganized attachment. Eventually, they found that in addition to frightening, maltreating parental behavior, frightened or dissociative parental behavior can also lead to disorganized attachment in infants (Ainsworth & Eichberg, 1991; Hesse & Main, 2006; Holmes, 2004). These parental behaviors are assumed to be related to the parent’s own unresolved experiences of loss or trauma; in fact, we find a strong association between disorganized attachment in infants and parents being unresolved with respect to experiences of loss or trauma (Hesse & Main, 2000, 2006; Holmes, 2004; Lyons-Ruth & Jacobvitz, 2008; Main, 1996; Main & Hesse, 1990). Unresolved adults show “lapses in reasoning or discourse during the discussion of loss or abuse experiences” (Hesse & Main, 2006, p. 314). Hesse and Main (2000, 2006) proposed the following link between parents’ unresolved status and infant’s disorganized attachment: idiosyncratic stimuli, including possibly the infant, trigger a parent’s memories of unresolved loss or abuse, this may lead to a (brief) change in the parent’s consciousness and the parent behaving in ways that frighten the child, resulting in disorganized attachment as the alarmed infant can find no escape from “fright without solution.”

Frightening parental behaviors. In order to give readers a clearer sense of the more subtle causes of developmental/structural disruptions, I will describe the types of frightening parental behaviors that are associated with disorganized attachment. Hesse and Main (2006) described three primary categories of frightening parental behavior likely to lead to disorganized attachment: threatening, frightened, and dissociative. Threatening parental behaviors are generally predatory and aggressive and may include: “in the absence of metasignals of play, stiff-legged ‘stalking’ of infant on all fours, exposure of canine tooth, hissing or deep growls directed at infant” as well as “abrupt and unpredictable invasions of ‘personal space’”(Hesse & Main, 2006, pp. 320-321). Frightened parental behaviors include: “sudden frightened look (fear mouth, exposure of whites of eyes) in absence of environmental change; also frightened retreat from the infant or approaching infant apprehensively as though a potentially dangerous object” (Hesse & Main, 2006, p. 320). Dissociative parental behaviors may involve the parent “freezing” and not responding to the environment or infant as well as the parent speaking in an “altered” or haunted tone with the child. It is not surprising that infants would be frightened by such overtly threatening behavior. Frightened parental behavior is likely to elicit fear in infants because they respond to their attachment figures’ fear by becoming alarmed. Dissociated parental behavior is likely to frighten infants because “they indicated that the parent is unavailable to serve his or her role as the infant’s protector and caregiver” (Cassidy & Mohr, 2001, p. 282). These behaviors may not last very long and they may occur within relationships that are generally responsive and sensitive to the infant (Hesse & Main, 2006). These frightening behaviors also seem to appear out of nowhere, as they are unrelated to clear external events in the environment, and are incomprehensible to the child (Main & Hesse, 1990). In contrast, threatening and frightened parental behaviors that arise in response to external events, such as when a parent yells or shows fear as their toddler heads toward a deep pool, is understandable. Furthermore, if the parent accidentally scares the child in these circumstances, the parent is likely to immediately comfort the child (Hesse & Main, 2006). Also, normal parental “pseudodissociaton,” such as momentary absorption or daydreaming, is unlikely to frighten a child because the parent does not seem altered nor is the parent completely unresponsive to the child (Hesse & Main, 2006). These situations are unlikely to lead to experiences of “fright without solution” because the source of threat is external to the parent and therefore separate from the child’s source of comfort. It also seems that unpredictability and

incomprehensibility differentiate threatening, frightened, and dissociative parental behavior that is so profoundly frightening that it leads to disorganized attachment from that which is only momentarily frightening. In addition to frightened/frightening parental behavior, “disrupted parental affective communication” can lead to disorganized attachment because it results in the attachment figure being unavailable to help soothe the child, regardless of whether or not the attachment figure is also the source of alarm (Lyons-Ruth & Jacobvitz, 2008, p. 677). Several studies reported that disrupted parental affective communication is associated with disorganized attachment (Lyons- Ruth & Jacobvitz, 2008). Disrupted parental affective communication behaviors include: “negative-intrusive behavior,” such as mocking or teasing, “role confusion,” such as when a parent looks to the child for comfort or reassurance, “withdrawal,” such as when a parent remains silent with the child, “affective communicative errors,” such as when a parent’s communications are contradictory (e.g., encourages child to come closer and then moves away) or when a parent does not respond to the child’s communications, and “disorientation,” such as “unusual changes in pitch and intonation of voice when interacting with the infant” (Lyons-Ruth & Jacobvitz, 2008, p. 677). Most of the examples of frightening parental behavior (threatening, frightened, and dissociative) are so brief and subtle that they would need to be observed at the time of their occurrence because they are unlikely to be remembered specifically years later. Of the subtle injuries, parental mocking or teasing, withdrawal, and unresponsiveness seem more overt, less ephemeral, more easily described with words, and thus more likely to be specifically remembered. Disorganized attachment and schizophrenia. Given the utility of the attachment theory concept of disorganized attachment in understanding the effects of both subtle and overt trauma on development, research on connections between disorganized attachment and schizophrenia would strengthen the proposed connection between early trauma and later severe disturbances. Unfortunately, there are no longitudinal studies looking at early disorganized attachment and subsequent functioning or psychopathology in adulthood that can address the question of the relationship between disorganized attachment and schizophrenia. I will briefly summarize the available attachment research that relates to disorganized attachment and schizophrenia. Disorganized attachment in childhood is associated with adult unresolved status (Lyons- Ruth, Yellin, Melnick, & Atwood, 2005; Read & Gumley, 2008) on the Adult Attachment

Interview (AAI; Main & Goldwyn, 1998 as cited in Cassidy and Mohr, 2001). This is not surprising because the adult correlate to disorganized attachment in childhood is unresolved with respect to loss or trauma on the AAI. In terms of unresolved status and schizophrenia, Liotti (2012) reported that Tyrell and Dozier (1997) “found a high rates of unresolved AAI classification in samples of schizophrenic patients” (p. 132). Researchers find higher rates of unresolved status among populations with psychiatric disorders in general, with there being limited specificity regarding connections between adult attachment classifications and disorders (Cassidy & Mohr, 2001; Bakermans-Kranenburg & van IJzendoorn, 2009; Read & Gumley, 2008). Miti and Chiaia (2003, as cited in Liotti, 2012 and in Read & Gumley, 2008) compared the rates of losses and traumas experienced by the mothers of patients diagnosed with dissociative disorders or borderline personality disorder to the mothers of patients diagnosed with schizophrenia. The rates of mothers’ losses and traumas were similarly high in both groups. High rates of parental trauma and loss are associated with infant disorganized attachment (Cassidy & Mohr, 2001). Thus, Read and Gumley (2008) suggested that “it is, therefore, not unreasonable to conclude that early parental losses and trauma are relevant in the early infant development of those who later develop symptoms of ‘schizophrenia’ and that the mechanism may be via early disorganized infant attachment” (p. 7). Summary. We can see why developmental/structural disruptions may occur as a result of direct abuse; it is very likely that an infant would freeze her or his meaning making process in order to survive abuse because to construe the implications of depending on violent and unpredictable caregivers for survival would be too threatening. However, direct abuse is not the only cause of developmental/structural disruptions. Attachment theory and the concepts of “fright without solution” helps us understand how subtle relational injuries such as separation, loss, threat of loss, frightening parental behavior, and disruptions in affective communication (e.g., teasing and unresponsiveness) may also be traumatic due to the infant’s dependency on caregivers for survival and comfort. I will now discuss the development and disruption of self versus other and self-other permanence. Self Versus Other When we are children, our first task is to begin to distinguish between what is self and what is other or world (Faidley, 2001; Leitner et al., 2000). We must develop a construct of self that is separate from other before there can be a connection between a self and an other (Faidley,

2001). Experiencing a developmental/structural disruption prior to the formation of self versus other would make it unlikely that a person could function independently. Without this construct “the world is chaotic, stormy, and unpredictable because without the ability to separate self from other, one cannot even recognize the existence of others, much less connect to another in any meaningful way” (Leitner et al., 2000, p. 180). As I established before, early construing is based on the physical. For an infant, the “skin barrier” may serve as a concrete way of separating that which is me from that which is not me (Leitner, 1997). If my understanding of self and other is limited to the physical skin barrier, I will not have a way of understanding psychological connection and boundaries. I would have trouble forming ROLE relationships if I do not have a sense of psychological connection that can transcend the physical. At the same time, I may experience any intimacy with you “as a massive invasion of self” as I have no way of making sense of the intimate experience of you validating my core, “resulting in ‘psychotic’ terror around connection” (Leitner et al., 2000, p. 180). If I do not see how self and other can affect each other, then I will not recognize my impact on others (Leitner et al., 2000; Leitner et al., 2005). I will not see the ways that I am partly responsible for the way my neglect injures you. Your injury is your responsibility rather than being yours, mine, and ours. People whose construct of self versus other is severely limited often are either permanently institutionalized or handicapped. We may see less severe disruptions in self versus other, such that in stressful circumstances a person may struggle with self versus other. Such a person may experience momentary fusion with other(s) or that his or her fate is inextricably linked to others’. In other words, what happens to that person also automatically happens to other(s) or what happens to other(s) automatically also happens to that person. Self-other Permanence Once we have an understanding of self versus other, our next task is to develop self-other permanence. Self-other permanence is the understanding that both self and other continue to exist even when out of sight or out of mind. The concept of other permanence is analogous to Piaget’s concept of object permanence. Piaget estimated that children develop object permanence roughly between the ages of 18-24 months (Miller, 2011). Other permanence carries more significance for a young child than object permanence because the child depends on others for survival and feeling secure (Faidley, 2001). Faidley (2001) points out that “The acquisition of

other permanence, the ability to sustain a mental representation of the other when the other is not present, thus, is vitally important to one’s sense of stability and hope” (p. 147). Without self-other permanence, one cannot engage in ROLE relationships because these “involve commitments over time” (Leitner et al., 2000, p. 181). In order to commit to being in a ROLE relationship with an other, both self and other must continue to exist. Without other- permanence, “the other literally ceases to exist when outside of the person’s awareness” (Leitner et al., 2000, p. 181). Separations or distance in relationships are terrifying because the person is completely alone as he or she cannot evoke a mental representation of the other or the relationship. As I mentioned before, psychotic symptoms may be a result of a developmental/structural disruption of self-other permanence (Leitner, 2013). Without a sense that self and others are permanent, my experiences may have little connection to the outside world. People seem to appear and disappear. I may question whether real people in my life exist and be convinced that hallucinations are real. Another manifestation of SOP difficulties involves rapid shifts in discourse without any sense of contradiction. For example, a man might describe his father as “loving and gentle,” and then shortly afterward talk about how his father beat him mercilessly on a regular basis without any indication that these two descriptions of his father are inconsistent. We can understand this manifestation of SOP in terms of one part of a person believing one thing, another part believing something completely different and there is no connection between these parts. When one part is present, things are experienced one way, and when the other part is present, they are experienced the other way. The parts are disconnected, so the person is not aware of the contradiction. Attachment theory describes this phenomenon in terms of multiple contradictory internal working models, which I described previously in the section on disorganized attachment and I will return to later. As a brief reminder, children form multiple contradictory internal working models in order to solve the relational paradox of having a caregiver who is simultaneously their source of safety and the cause of their alarm. When children who experienced confusing traumatic experiences grow up, we may see the effects of this early trauma manifest as SOP difficulties in terms of their rapid shifts between incompatible descriptions (i.e., rapid shifts between contradictory internal working models). Intimacy can be overwhelming for someone without self-permanence, for, as the person comes into contact with the other’s subjectivity, the person may feel like he or she disappears, is

consumed, or ceases to exist (Leitner et al., 2000). For example, if my parents were emotionally needy and used me to meet their emotional needs at the cost of my own, then my experiences of closeness involved meeting the other person’s needs and my needs disappearing. As an adult, I may experience someone getting to know me as reading my mind or stealing my thoughts because my self does not continue to exist as a separate person connecting to an other. I would not experience an agentic self that continues to exist and that can choose what parts of me to share with you. Instead, when we get close, I disappear, and therefore the boundary between you and me also disappears. We can see how disruptions in self-permanence may involve struggles around differentiating self versus other. As I indicated before, developmental/structural disruptions are not absolute. If a developmental/structural disruption occurs before a person has fully acquired self-other permanence, then, when life is calm, he or she will look healthy and be able to construe self and other as permanent. However, during times of greater stress, which are inevitable in life, he or she may look quite disturbed (Leitner et al., 2000). The severity of the disruption will depend on how early the relational trauma started, the nature of the trauma, and the pervasiveness of the relational trauma (i.e., were all caregivers problematic or were some less damaging). Attachment theory’s concept of developmental pathways may help us understand these variations in the severity of developmental/structural disruptions in SOP. Developmental pathways. Bowlby (1973) advocates a developmental pathways explanation of psychopathology (Sroufe et al., 1999). According to Bowlby’s model (1973), development occurs along a pathway determined by the environment and the person’s interactions with the environment. Developmentally, we all start out at the same place, but rapidly our paths diverge in accordance with our experiences. The longer a person is headed in a particular direction, the further away his or her path may diverge from a healthy trajectory. While there are ongoing opportunities for new experiences to redirect development, it can be difficult for someone on an unhealthy path to change their course because we carry the working models we develop from our early experiences forward (Bowlby, 1988; Sroufe et al., 1999). Sroufe and colleagues (1999) explained, “children approach new situations with certain preconceptions, behavioral biases, and interpretive tendencies” (p. 5). The past continues to influence the way future relationships are experienced; “individual patterns of adaptation elicit reactions from the environment that consolidate and elaborate them” (Sroufe et al., 1999, p. 5).

For example, children with an avoidant attachment style, having experienced rejection, come to expect rejection from others and may preemptively push others away to avoid further rejection. Unfortunately, pushing others away may lead to the rejection that they expected in the first place (Sroufe et al., 1999). Development often persists along unhealthy paths because, in addition to the tendency of children to behave in ways that may pull for repetitions of their problematic relational experiences, the environment itself is often stable (Weinfield et al., 2008). In other words, children influence the environment, but the environment also influences children. Problematic family environments rarely improve dramatically (Bowlby, 1988). Thus, while there is opportunity for subsequent experiences to influence development, “early experience still informs later behavior” (Weinfield et al., 2008, p. 93). A developmental pathways approach could be incorporated into EPCP understandings of developmental/ structural disruptions. As I indicated, developmental/structural disruptions are not all-or-nothing, but rather depend upon how early the trauma started, the nature of the trauma, and the pervasiveness of the trauma. Thus, these variables could influence the course and severity (i.e., the pathway) of a person’s developmental/ structural disruption. Furthermore, subsequent experiences should continue to influence development. Additional traumas or stressors might lead to more severe and/or pervasive manifestations of developmental/structural disruptions. Positive relational experiences (e.g., therapy and other stable caring relationships) may allow people to heal from early injuries and advance their development of constructs such as SOP, resulting in less severe and/or less frequent manifestations of developmental/structural disruptions. Multiple internal working models. Continuing the elaboration of EPCP theory with attachment theory, Bowlby’s (1973) concept of multiple internal working models provides an explanation of developmental/structural disruptions in SOP. While Bowlby rejects the concept of regression, he does describe the operation of multiple internal working models, with some operating at lower levels of awareness or even unconsciously (1973). Children may develop multiple working models when parents tell children false information about family relationships and/or when parents prohibit children from expressing experiences that do not coincide with the parents’ version of their relationship (Bowlby, 1973). In the first case, children who are repeatedly told lies about what happened in the family are likely to be confused and unsure of what is real. For example, a child may be the one to discover that his mother has shot and killed

herself. However, the father may correct the child and insist that the mother died of a heart attack. In order to deal with the conflicting information, the child forms two (or more) models of self and parent: “one set, based on the child’s adverse experience with the parent, is defensively excluded, whereas the other set, reflecting what the parent wants the child to believe, remains consciously accessible” (Bretherton & Munholland, 2008, p. 105). Main (1991) reported more recent evidence that helps explain young children’s vulnerability to forming multiple models in response to being told contradictory accounts of events. Children do not develop the ability to differentiate the source of a memory until between the ages of 3 to 5. Prior to that, they may not be able to recall whether a memory is based on their own experience, assumptions they made, or on others’ accounts. Children are likely to develop multiple models of an event if they cannot discern which memory of it to trust. For example, a child may accurately perceive that she was not wanted, that her father resents having to take care of her, and that he avoids responding to her needs or ignores her. Her father may insist that he loves and cherishes her and that he is a saint for putting up with her unreasonable and unrelenting neediness. He attributes any problems between them to her difficult temperament and any anger at his neglect to her uncontrollable temper. The child may form two (or more) models of herself and her father, using her experience as the basis for one model and her father’s account as the basis for another. Defensive exclusion contributes to the development of multiple internal working models (Bretherton & Munholland, 2008). Recall that defensive exclusion commonly occurs when parents do not want children to know things the children saw or experienced and when parents behave in ways that are unbearable for children (Bowlby, 1988; Bretherton, 1992; Bretherton & Munholland, 2008). Bretherton (1992) explained how defensively excluding the unbearable or forbidden experiences leads to multiple models: One set of working models- accessible to awareness and discussion and based on what a child has been told- represents the parent as good and the parent’s rejecting behavior as caused by the ‘badness’ of the child. The other model, based on what the child has experienced but defensively excluded from awareness, represents the hated or disappointing side of the parent. (p.768) In my earlier section on disorganized attachment I also discussed how children form multiple contradictory internal working models in response to frightened/frightening parental

behavior. Returning to the example of the girl and her father, it is reasonable to assume that she would find it unbearable to feel dependent on a caregiver who does not want her and who is unreliable. She may defensively exclude knowledge of her father’s rejection and construct multiple models. In the model based on her father’s reports, the self is unreasonable and difficult to love and her father is devoted and beyond reproach. In other words, the self is unlovable and others are loving and available. In the model based on the child’s own defensively excluded experience of their relationship, the self is justified in its demands and the father is cruel and withholding. Assuming the father has neglected and rejected the girl from infancy (a fairly safe assumption as parents rarely wake up one day and start neglecting their children) we would expect her also to have formed a primitive model of self as unlovable and others as unpredictable and rejecting. Bowlby (1973) suggested: In a person suffering from emotional disturbance it is common to find that the model that has greatest influence on his perceptions and forecasts, and therefore on his feeling and behaviour, is one that developed during his early years and is constructed on fairly primitive lines but that the person himself may be relatively, or completely unaware of; while, simultaneously, there is operating in him a second, and perhaps radically incompatible, model, that developed later, that is much more sophisticated, that the person is more nearly aware of and that he may mistakenly suppose to be dominant. (p. 205) When this girl grows up, she may operate on the more conscious model based on her father’s account, of self as unlovable and others as loving and available. If, at the same time, her more primitive model of self as unlovable and others as unpredictable is unconsciously influencing her experience, she may find herself fearing abandonment, and feeling anxious and profoundly alone when separated from people, as if she could never count on anyone to really be there. These nagging fears may make no sense to her because, according to her father, she never lacked for love and care, so she has no reason to mistrust. She developed a model of herself as unlovable and others as rejecting that she defensively excluded due to its unbearable implications. As I explained previously, models that are defensively excluded are not subject to revision. Thus, “the defensively excluded model, even though it has not been updated, reveals itself in an individual’s adult behavior” (Bretherton & Munholland, 2008, p. 106). Both Bowlby’s concept of multiple internal working models and EPCP’s concept of self-other

permanence struggles seem to account for this woman’s experience. Bowlby’s attribution of more severe disturbance to the continuing influence of primitive models bears strong resemblance to EPCP’s idea of disruption leading to continued reliance on simple, primitive constructions of self and other. Before moving on, I wish to clarify that having multiple models is not inherently problematic. We may develop different models as we have diverse experiences within different relationships. For example, a child’s model of her relationship with her sibling is likely to differ from her model of her relationship with a parent. Main (1991) emphasized the distinction between this common variation and Bowlby’s use of the term multiple models, pointing out that Bowlby’s concept referred to “multiple and implicitly contradictory models of the same aspect of reality” (p.132, emphasis in the original). Trauma and Schizophrenia Associations between trauma and psychosis. If EPCP and attachment theories are correct in their assumption that early trauma may lead to severe psychological disturbances, then we should expect to find high rates of traumatic experiences among people diagnosed with schizophrenia and/or experiencing symptoms of psychosis. In fact, this is exactly what we find. Read (1997) reviewed 15 studies of female inpatients and found rates of child physical abuse (CPA) of 44% and child sexual abuse (CSA) of 50%. Sixty-four percent of the women reported either CPA or CSA (Read, 1997). In their review of studies involving patients where at least half were diagnosed psychotic, Read and colleagues (2005) reported average CSA rates of 50% among females and 28% among males. The rates of CPA were 48% for females and 50% for males, and the overall rates of CSA or CPA were 69% for females and 59% for males (Read et al., 2005). These rates of childhood abuse most likely under represent true rates because patients (especially men) are unlikely to report childhood abuse while in the hospital (Read, 1997; Read et al., 2005). For example, in a study where women where interviewed at home after release from a hospital, 85% reported CSA (Mullen, Martin, Anderson, Romans, & Herbison, 1993). Similarly, using confidential self-report measures instead of general questioning during intake interviews doubled the rate of abuse reported by female psychiatric inpatients (Bendall, Jackson, Hulbert & McGorry, 2008). Furthermore, these rates did not include emotional abuse or neglect. When emotional abuse and neglect are included, the rates of childhood abuse are 85% for men and 100% in women (Read et al., 2005). These statistics are consistent with EPCP theory of

developmental/structural disruptions; early injuries, ranging from more subtle emotional abuse and neglect to more overt CPA and CSA, are associated with severe psychological disturbance (i.e., developmental/structural disruptions in SOP). When it comes to trauma and psychosis, overall the research points towards an association. On the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory (MMPI), people who have experienced abuse during childhood have higher scores on the schizophrenia and paranoia scales than people who were not abused as well as on the psychosis scale of the Symptom Checklist 90- Revised (Read et al., 2005). Shevlin, Dorahy and Adamson (2007) reviewed data from the National Comorbidity Survey in order to assess the relationship between trauma and psychosis. They found that CPA predicted psychosis and that the probability of psychosis increased with an increasing number of trauma types experienced. Among patients diagnosed with bipolar disorder or psychotic depression, childhood trauma was significantly associated with psychotic symptoms (Hammersley, Read, Woodall & Dillon, 2007). Four recent studies are often cited during discussions of the connection between trauma and psychosis: Bebbington and colleagues (2004), Janssen and colleagues (2004), Whitfield, Dube, Felitti, and Anda (2005), and Spataro, Mullen, Burgess, Wells, and Moss (2004). I will address each of these in turn. Bebbington and colleagues (2004) drew from the British National Survey of Psychiatric Morbidity data to investigate associations between “early victimisation experiences” and psychotic disorders (p. 220). From a sample of 8,580, the authors identified 60 participants as psychotic. In the psychotic group, 34.5% reported sexual abuse, 46.4% reported bullying, 17.9% reported being “taken into local authority care,” 38.1% reported “violence in the home,” 34.5% reported “running away from home,” 27.4% reported being homeless, and 64.3% reported being “victim of serious injury, illness or assault” (Bebbington et al., 2004, p. 222). The authors also calculated the frequencies of each type of victimization for neurotic disorders, alcohol dependence, drug dependence, and people without any psychological disorder. With the exception of “being expelled from school,” the psychotic group had the highest rates for each type of victimization. The authors determined odds ratios of the victimization experiences for each of the psychiatric groups in comparison to the participants with no psychiatric disorder and the psychotic group had the highest likelihood of experiencing each type of victimization. Those with psychosis were 15.5% more likely to have been sexually abused than people with no psychiatric disorder. After using logistic regression to control for interactions between the

events, sexual abuse, running away from home, and being the victim of serious injury, illness or assault remained significantly associated with psychosis. While the exact timing of victimization experiences was not ascertained, some of the events, such as running away from home, clearly occurred during childhood. Overall, the study supports the association between childhood trauma and psychosis. Bebbington and colleagues (2004) concluded, “In people with psychosis, there is a marked excess of victimising experiences, many of which will have occurred during childhood. This is suggestive of a social contribution to aetiology” (p. 220). Janssen and colleagues (2004) used a general population sample of 4,045 people drawn from the Netherlands Mental Health Survey and Incidence Study (NEMESIS) to examine the relationship between childhood abuse and psychosis. Participants were interviewed twice, with 2 years in between, and the authors looked for new cases of psychosis during the second interview. The authors distinguished between three levels of psychosis severity, two related to the level of symptoms and the third to necessity of psychological care. Thus, the least severe group consisted of people with any symptoms of psychosis (“any psychosis”) (Janssen et al., 2004, p.42). Psychosis severe enough to cause impairment (“pathology level psychosis”) was the intermediate level of severity (Janssen et al., 2004, p.42). Psychosis severe enough to require care (“need- based” psychosis) was the most severe (Janssen et al., 2004, p.42). The severity of abuse was assessed in terms of frequency and number of types of abuse (emotional neglect, psychological abuse, physical abuse, and sexual abuse). People who had experienced childhood abuse were 3.6, 13, and 11.5 times more likely to develop any psychosis, pathology level psychosis, and need- based psychosis, respectively. Controlling for demographic variables (age, sex, discrimination, ethnicity, level of education, family history of psychiatric disorder, and drug use), the associations remained significant, with people who had experienced childhood abuse being 2.5, 9.3, and 7.3 times more likely to develop any psychosis (i.e., low severity), pathology level psychosis (i.e., medium severity), and need-based psychosis (i.e., high severity), respectively. The authors reported a dose-response relationship between abuse and psychosis “indicating that the risk of developing the psychosis outcomes increased with increased frequency of reported childhood abuse” (Janssen et al., 2004, p. 41). For example, people in the highest frequency of abuse category were 48.4 times more likely to develop pathology level psychosis and 31.7 times more likely to develop need-based psychosis than people not exposed to abuse. The authors

concluded, “early childhood trauma increases the risk for positive psychotic symptoms” (Janssen, 2004, p. 38). Whitfield and colleagues (2005) used data from the Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACE) survey to examine the relationship between childhood trauma and hallucinations. The types of trauma included “abuse (physical, sexual, emotional), witnessing domestic violence, parental separation or divorce, and living with substance abusing, mentally ill, or incarcerated household members as a child” (Whitfield et al., 2005, p. 798). Their sample included 17,337 adult members of Kaiser Health Plan in San Diego, California. The risk of hallucination increased by 1.2-2.5 times with the occurrence of any ACE (adjusted for age, sex, race and level of education). The authors reported, “a significant and graded relationship between a history of childhood trauma (ACEs) and hallucinations” (Whitfield et al., 2005, p. 803). A person in the highest frequency group of ACEs was 6.7 times more likely to experience hallucinations than people who had not experienced ACEs. The odds ratio dropped to 4.7, but remained significant, when substance abuse was controlled for. Spataro and colleagues’ (2004) was the only study that did not find a significant association between childhood sexual abuse and psychosis. However, there were several methodological issues that call the study’s results into question. The authors took a sample of 1,612 Australian children with cases of sexual abuse documented by the Victorian Institute of Forensic Medicine and linked their cases to the Victorian Psychiatric Case Register of contact with in-patient and community mental health services to see how frequently they were treated. The control group consisted of cases on the Psychiatric Case Register that were not also registered victims of CSA. The authors did not find a significantly elevated risk for schizophrenia among the abused males or females. There are several reasons why this study was biased against finding significant differences in rates of schizophrenia. First of all, the sample size was not large enough. Secondly, there may have been unreported cases of sexual abuse in the control group. Thirdly, the cases of sexual abuse in the abused group may not have been representative because the authorities had identified the cases of sexual abuse, making it likely that the child was removed from the abusive situation and received services. Read and colleagues went on to question whether the failure to find a significantly higher rate of schizophrenia among the victims of CSA group may suggest that: “early acknowledgement of the abuse by adults and the taking of appropriate steps such as removing children from abusive situations, provide some

protection from subsequent psychosis” (p. 338). Thus, Spataro and colleagues’ (2004) results do not credibly challenge the connection between abuse and schizophrenia. Hallucinations are associated with childhood trauma (Hammersley et al., 2007; Read et al., 2005; Schafer, Ross, & Read, 2008). Read and Argyle (1999) reported hallucinations in 53% of in-patients who reported CSA, 58% of those who reported CPA, and 71% of those who reported both CSA and CPA. Among patients diagnosed with bipolar disorder, childhood trauma was strongly associated with psychotic symptoms in general and CSA was particularly associated with auditory hallucinations (Hammersley et al., 2007). In terms of temporal relationship, in one study, 70% of those who heard voices reported that their auditory hallucinations started after a traumatic experience (Romme & Escher, 1989). Another study indicated that auditory hallucinations followed either a traumatic experience or “an event that activated the memory of earlier trauma” (Morrison et al., 2003). Read and colleagues (2005) reported, “not all childhood abuse is traumatic in the narrow, life-threatening sense required for a PTSD diagnosis. It seems that such extreme fear is not necessary to increase the probability of psychosis later in life” (p. 340). Thus, while overt abuse and trauma are not necessarily essential for the development of psychosis, it is clear that people who go on to develop psychosis experience high rates of abuse. Given the high rates of CSA, CPA, neglect, and emotional abuse experienced by people with psychosis and the high rates of psychosis found among survivors of childhood trauma, it is clear that trauma and psychosis are associated (Hammersley et al., 2007; Kilcommons & Morrison, 2005; Morgan & Fisher, 2007; Morrison et al., 2003; Read, 1997; Read et al., 2005; Schafer et al., 2008) and it seems reasonable to suggest that childhood trauma and/or abuse plays a causal role in the development of psychosis (Kilcommons & Morrison, 2005; Morrison et al., 2003; Read, 1997; Read et al., 2005; Schafer et al., 2008). Morrison and colleagues (2003) concluded, “childhood abuse seems to be implicated in the development of psychosis for a substantial proportion of patients” (p. 338). Psychosis and PTSD. Some researchers suggest that schizophrenia and post traumatic stress disorder are essentially both responses to trauma (Kilcommons & Morrison, 2005; Read et al., 2005; Schafer et al., 2008). If this were the case, it would provide even more support for the connection between trauma and psychosis. The hallucinations experienced in schizophrenia may be no different from the intrusive flashbacks experienced in PTSD. Read and colleagues (2005)

suggested “Some psychotic hallucinations appear to be nothing more or less than memories of traumatic events identical to the split-off flashbacks usually considered indicative of PTSD rather than schizophrenia” (p. 341). Part of the confusion may arise because hallucinations often include more fragmented elements of traumatic memories. Another reason why hallucinations are mistakenly assumed to be non-trauma related is that the timing is confused for the person experiencing hallucinations. Some intrusive memories are clearly internal re-experiencing of past traumatic events. However, when past traumas are experienced as present, external experiences that are unrelated to the past, people may mistakenly ascribe “an internal event to an external source” (Read et al., 2005, p. 341). Such confusion may lead to hallucinations being labeled psychotic rather than post-traumatic. Read and colleagues explained, “hallucinations can be recategorized when trauma is identified simply because of the assumption that trauma cannot cause psychosis but can cause PTSD” (p. 341). Thus, when trauma is identified, symptoms are described as “psychotic-like” or “dissociative” and the diagnosis changed to PTSD (Read, 1997). While the PTSD label seems preferable to me because it explicitly recognizes the role of trauma, the point I am trying to make is that hallucinations may be understood as responses to trauma just as flashbacks are. Returning to the similarities between hallucinations and flashbacks, just as flashbacks are memories of previous traumatic events, the content of hallucinations is often connected with trauma (Morrison et al., 2003; Read et al., 2005; Schafer et al., 2008). Read and Argyle (1999) reported that the content of hallucinations is clearly related to childhood trauma for at least 50% of people. Both Read and colleagues (2005) and Schafer and colleagues (2008) found associations between CSA and references to evil or the devil as well as experiencing auditory hallucinations as malicious. Schafer and colleagues (2008) reported, “themes of hallucinations (e.g. threat, guilt and humiliation) were related to past trauma in patients with non-affective psychosis” (p. 141, emphasis in original). Morrison and colleagues (2003) in comparing psychosis and PTSD, observed that flashbacks “often appear to take the form of auditory, visual, tactile, and/or olfactory hallucinations and are often accompanied by paranoia” (p. 338). Additional similarities between positive symptoms (i.e., “an excess or distortion of normal functions” [APA, 2000, p. 299]) of PTSD and psychosis include: “increased levels of arousal and hypervigilence” and “disturbed sleep patterns” (Morrison et al., 2003, p. 338). In terms of the negative symptoms (i.e., “diminution or loss of normal functions” [APA, 2000,

p.299), both PTSD and psychosis may involve “emotional numbing, affective constriction, estrangement from others, difficulty concentrating, feelings of derealization, detachment, and general neglect” (Morrison et al., 2003, p. 338). Assuming both PTSD and psychosis are indeed different types of responses to trauma, then we would expect to find high rates of PTSD among psychotic patients. In fact, Kilcommons and Morrison (2005) reported that 53% of their sample of patients with psychotic diagnosis met criteria for PTSD and that the severity of trauma was positively associated with severity of both PTSD and psychotic symptoms. Kilcommons and Morrison (2005) concluded, “trauma can lead to the development of psychotic experiences and that both PTSD and psychosis may be part of a spectrum of responses to a traumatic event” (p. 357). Dissociation may provide a common link between trauma and the symptoms of PTSD and of psychosis. Schafer and colleagues (2008) examined psychosis and dissociation and argued that “Both psychosis and dissociation are often, but not always, trauma responses” (p. 143). Furthermore, we frequently find dissociation among people experiencing psychosis. Kilcommons and Morrison (2005) reported a prevalence rate for dissociation of 50% among psychotic patients, which is significantly higher than the 29% prevalence rate among psychiatric patients in general. According to Putnam (1989), dissociative identity disorder (DID) is strongly associated with childhood trauma. In the case of DID, trauma leads to a fragmented experience of self and oftentimes involves auditory hallucinations in the form of voices. Schafer and colleagues (2008) emphasized, “No studies have demonstrated a reliable qualitative or quantitative difference between ‘dissociative’ and ‘psychotic’ auditory hallucinations” (p. 143). Recalling my earlier comparison of EPCP’s concepts of suspension and freezing of the meaning- making process in response to trauma to dissociation, we can understand DID as another example of profound struggles in permanence. Summary and Goals Based on the preceding review, we can see how early relational traumas, whether overt, such as physical abuse, sexual abuse, and profound neglect, or more subtle, as is the case with emotional abuse, neglect, rejection, abandonment, and frightened/frightening parental behavior may overwhelm an infant or young child’s ability to make meaning out of such threatening events, leading to developmental/structural disruptions in a person’s emerging sense of self-other permanence. Such disruptions manifest in a variety of ways. For example, someone with

disruptions in permanence may struggle with holding onto a sense of self; disrupted self- permanence someone may feel as if he or she literally disappears or is replaced by someone else. When separated from other people that person has felt close to, he or she may feel as though they never were close. Difficulties with permanence can result in hallucinations, such as hearing voices. People who struggle with SOP also may abruptly contradict themselves without awareness when different parts of themselves come and go without interaction. EPCP understands these experiences as relating to early traumatic relational injuries that interfered with and disrupted the person’s sense of self and other permanence, not as meaningless symptoms of psychosis. I interviewed several patients in a state psychiatric hospital diagnosed with schizophrenia about early trauma and relational injuries in order to provide a clear and specific account of developmental/structural disruptions that is theoretically and clinically informative. Given the high rates of trauma found in populations of people diagnosed with schizophrenia and that trauma is presumed to cause developmental/structural disruptions, I expected to find that people who carry this label report both high rates of early trauma and describe difficulties with developmental/structural disruptions. The overall goal of my project was to explore the extent to which people’s lived experiences support an EPCP understanding of the development of severe psychopathology. EPCP theory suggests that early trauma may disrupt peoples’ development of SOP resulting in severe symptomotology. Thus, if EPCP theory is useful, I should be able to: (1) conceptualize participants’ symptoms in terms of difficulties with SOP, (2) identify early traumas, and (3) draw connections between the early traumas and their disruptions in SOP. The qualitative approach was appropriate given the aims of providing a rich, detailed description of structural disruptions specifying the early relational injuries that preceded them. Thus, this study not only provides initial empirical support for the EPCP understanding of severe disturbance, it also may help clinicians seeking to conceptualize using the EPCP diagnostic system by offering both clear examples and a more nuanced understanding of developmental/structural disruptions in SOP. Method Participants I recruited five participants from a long-term residential psychiatric hospital. (See the Results section for specific demographic information.) All participants were over the age of 18

and provided informed consent. (The consent form can be found in Appendix A. Identifying information has been removed to protect participant anonymity.) Participants were all currently in therapy. I required that they currently be in individual therapy for three reasons: (1) if the interviews brought up painful memories, the participant had an ongoing relationship with his or her therapist for support, (2) patients who are able to be in therapy tend to be more communicative and are less likely to be so psychotic that they could not meaningfully participate and (3) if there is any question about a patient’s ability to provide informed consent, I could confirm with the participant’s therapist that the participant is able to provide informed consent. As I was a trainee at the hospital at the time of the interviews, all patients who I worked with or have worked with individually or in groups were not eligible for my study as I did not want to create any situations in which my clients might have felt undue pressure to participate. I sought participants diagnosed with schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder. The reason I selected schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorders is because in order to meet criteria for these diagnostic labels a person is necessarily experiencing some extreme experiences such as hallucinations or delusions. I focused on the most extreme disturbances because they would allow for the clearest evaluation of the concept of SOP. For schizophrenia, the DSM-5 requires that a person experience “two (or more) of the following” symptoms: “(1) Delusions. (2) Hallucinations. (3) Disorganized speech... (4) Grossly disorganized or catatonic behavior. (5) Negative symptoms” (APA, 2013, p. 99). The symptoms must be “present for a significant portion of time during a 1-month period (or less if successfully treated),” and “at least one of these must be (1), (2), or (3)” (APA, 2013, p. 99). For schizoaffective disorder, the DSM-5 requires that a person must experience “delusions or hallucinations for 2 or more weeks” (APA, 2013, p. 105). In the case of one participant, the primary diagnosis in her chart was psychotic disorder not otherwise specified. She did report receiving a diagnosis of schizoaffective disorder and she was also diagnosed with bipolar I disorder, most recent episode mixed, severe with psychotic features. (See the Results section for descriptions of each participant’s diagnosis.) The scope of the current study is limited to the most severe disturbances; in DSM-5 terms, this would include people diagnosed with schizophrenia and/or schizoaffective disorder. While I offer some conjectures regarding posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) in my discussion, further research would be necessary in order to formally evaluate the applicability of SOP in understanding PTSD. The current study also does not speak to the struggles of people who receive the diagnosis

of borderline personality disorder. Future research would be needed in order to evaluate the applicability of disruptions in SOP to that population. A psychologist at the hospital compiled a list of patients receiving therapy and their diagnoses. Psychology staff indicated whether the patients they were seeing would be appropriate for this study. I reviewed the list and approached those patients who were recommended to me and who carried an appropriate diagnosis. I provided them with my advertisement (Appendix B) and asked if they might be interested in scheduling a time to talk. Several patients declined to participate. One agreed and then changed his mind as we were going over informed consent. I continued approaching patients until I found five who agreed to participate. Participants were not be reimbursed in any way for their participation. Interviews I interviewed participants about their early relational experiences and current relationships, meeting with them two to four times. I initially proposed two to three interviews per participant. During the interview process, the third interview seemed to provide additional depth and opportunities to pursue any remaining unanswered questions, so I attempted to meet with each participant three times. One participant asked to split our final interview up, and so I met with him four times. One participant declined a third interview and so we only met twice. I attempted to elicit sufficient detail to allow me to provide rich accounts of participants’ experiences. I took a semi-structured interview approach. I had a list of questions and I allowed the interview process to evolve and the flow of our conversation to dictate the order we covered the various content areas in. (See Appendix C for the list of questions.) I began by asking the participant how he or she ended up in the current hospital, as this seemed like a simple, non- threatening area to start with. In some cases, the questions then turned to how long the participant has been experiencing his or her current struggles and the nature of those struggles. In each case, family and early relationships came up and we explored those in depth. I asked about current relationships and how the participant experiences intimacy, conflict, and separation. The content was covered in different order, depending on how the conversation with each particular participant went. Having multiple interviews seemed to allow me to build greater rapport with participants, and improved the quality of our discourse; in some cases, participants revealed more in later interviews than they did initially. Furthermore, in between interviews, I reviewed our conversations and identified areas to follow up on and/or areas that we still needed to cover,

ensuring that I elicited thorough responses. The main differences between interviews was that in the first interview I obtained informed consent and in the last interview we reviewed the debriefing form. (See Appendix D for the debriefing form.) Writing exercise. During the first interview, I provided participants with a writing exercise for them to complete in between our first and second interview. (See Appendix E for the writing exercise prompt.) The writing exercise was intended to gather additional information about participants’ childhoods (and potential early trauma) by asking them to write about “your most significant early experience.” Only one participant completed the exercise and returned it. She wrote about a negative event that she mentioned in the interview, and provided additional details in the written story. I include her written response in her narrative. Analysis I began by transcribing each of the interviews and reading over the transcripts several times in order to immerse myself in each participant’s story. I analyzed each narrative for examples of relational trauma and developmental/structural disruptions. I then constructed each participant’s narrative account of his or her childhood and current struggles as it emerged through our interviews. For most of the narratives, I consolidated and combined across interviews because we often returned to the same experience or topic both within and across interviews. Based on EPCP theory and the high rates of abuse and neglect found among people with severe psychological disturbances, I expected participants to report early trauma. I also expected that their current psychological struggles could be appropriately conceptualized as disruptions in self-other permanence and/or self-other constancy. As it turned out, participants’ disruptions in SOP were so significant, that self-other constancy ended up not being relevant. I aimed to describe the participant’s experiences in enough depth so that the reader is able understand the basis upon which I drew connections between early relational traumas and subsequent struggles with disruptions in self-other permanence. One issue to consider is that participants may not have access to memories of trauma from very early in their lives. Incidents that occurred prior to language development are remembered differently, and thus may be less accessible for verbal recollection. When participants reported significant traumas from their earliest memories, it may be reasonable to assume that instances of trauma occurred before these earliest memories. (It is highly unlikely

that warm and loving caregivers wake up one day and suddenly decide to start abusing their children.) Given the retrospective nature of this study, I had no way of assessing the presence of some of the more subtle early traumas, such as having a parent who engages in frightening or frightened behaviors (e.g., dissociates). Instead I had to focus on the sorts of experiences participants could remember and describe (i.e., more overt traumas stored as verbal memories). I employed Kelly’s (1955) “credulous approach” with the participants. Kelly explained, “[the client’s] words and his [or her] symbolic behavior possess an intrinsic truth which the clinician should not ignore” (1955, p. 322). Thus, I respected participants’ words as communications of their experiential truth and I did not attempt to interpret them symbolically. In other words, I assumed that what they said was real and not a metaphor. For example, if someone said that he felt like he “disappeared” and “was gone,” then I took his meaning to be that he literally disappeared. Structure of Results I provide the reader with an overview of each participant including a brief factual summary of each participant’s history and a description of what it was like to be in the room with the participant. This description included my thoughts and feelings about aspects of the participant’s narrative in order to share my experiences of the interview with the reader. Then I present my in-depth analysis of the interviews from an EPCP perspective. For each participant I constructed a narrative drawing from the two to four interviews we completed. The narratives consist of sections of interviews interspersed with my EPCP interpretations (i.e., identification of instances of trauma and SOP difficulties as well as connections between the trauma and disruptions of SOP) of what the participant was saying. Thus, readers are able to test my conclusions against the original data. I aimed to provide enough detail so that the reader may understand how I developed my conceptualizations. In addition, I include the complete interviews in appendices. After each narrative, I provide a brief summary of what we have learned from that participant regarding the relationship between trauma and disruptions in SOP. There are a few things about the narratives and transcribing process that I should explain. All names and locations have been disguised to protect participants’ identities. I have italicized my interpretations that are interspersed in the narratives in order to help the reader differentiate between my later interpretations and the interview experiences. Keep in mind that these italicized interpretations are filtered through the biases I discussed previously when I positioned myself as

a researcher. The words of participants are presented as the participants spoke them, without editing of grammar or vocabulary, to provide the reader with a closer experience of the participants. When blank spaces, for example, ______, appear in the text, those indicate that the participant said something, but that I was unable to hear what it was when I was transcribing. There are a few places where I used the blank spaces in Andrew’s narrative rather than disguise another place or name of something. Words that appear in parenthesis indicate that I was not completely certain what I heard, but that it sounded like it could have been what I inserted in the parenthesis. Brackets around italicized text indicate an action or a pause. Results James Brief description. James is a 31 year old heterosexual, Caucasian, man. He had been in Woodside State Hospital for 14 months at the time of the interview. According to James’ chart, his primary diagnosis was schizophrenia, paranoid type. He was also diagnosed with: alcohol dependence; polysubstance dependence -provisional; posttraumatic stress disorder – provisional. James reported that he has bipolar II disorder. James has taken typical antipsychotics and was currently taking atypical antipsychotics. He had been hospitalized six times in the 9 months prior to being admitted to Woodside for self-injurious behavior and delusions about the devil and God fighting over him. Woodside admitted him because he attempted to kill himself by slitting his wrists with a compact disc. James reported that he has tried to kill himself eight times since being admitted to the hospital, using a belt to try to strangle himself. James has two younger brothers, Austin (26 or 27 years old) and Adam Carl (22 years old). From his report, it is unclear whether he was raised by his parents or was adopted. It seems possible his distinctions between two sets of parents (his “real mother and father” versus “the mother and father who raised me”) are part of his way of making sense out of a traumatic childhood. At times he reported being born in Ireland and immigrating when young; however he was inconsistent on his early childhood. In all likelihood he was born in the south, raised by his birth parents, Mitch and Yvonne, and moved to the Midwest during his childhood. Mitch verbally and physically abused his wife and children. He started sexually abusing James when James was 3 years old. James reported that his mother probably was aware of the sexual abuse, but did not intervene because she was afraid of Mitch. James indicated that Yvonne indiscriminately punished James by forcing him to spend long periods of time isolated in his

room. James reported that Mitch was “in and out” when Adam was young and cheated on Yvonne. Mitch left the family when James was 21 and remarried approximately 3 years later. James reported that he saw a psychiatrist when he was 10 who diagnosed him with ADHD and prescribed Ritalin. James started drinking when he was 16 and started blacking out from his drinking at 20. He received two DUI’s in his early twenties. James tried to kill himself by crashing his car when he was 19. James’s first hospital admission occurred when he was 23. James reported that he was told he had a thought disorder and was put on medications. He reported he was also diagnosed with bipolar-II disorder. James reported that, when he was 19, he dated a woman who was a year or two younger and got her pregnant. James was devastated when she had an abortion. James attended college at a large Midwestern university and graduated. James and I met for three interviews over the course of a month. (I provide the transcripts of our interviews in Appendix F.) James was of average height and overweight. He always wore the same stained sweatshirt. James was cooperative and eager to speak with me. He spoke softly and slowly. At times he mumbled and his voice trailed off, making him difficult to understand. His affect was severely blunted. It almost appeared like he was talking through a mask. His body was very still and he did not gesture or move while he spoke. When he chuckled, his facial expression did not change and his occasional smiles were restricted and came across as strained. James did not seem interested in following his treatment program. He did not attend classes, which limited his privileges. He spent most of his time hanging around his unit. When I saw him on the unit, he was usually by himself, either sitting or wandering and muttering. James believes that he served in the military and is suffering from PTSD related to combat trauma. He would abruptly veer off into talking about his military service and many combat awards. He also reported having a very high IQ as well as working as a model and professional athlete. In the middle of our conversation he occasionally stopped to pray or listen and converse in whispers with voices he heard. He was aware of his behavior and remarked that, prior to being on medications, he would not stop conversations to pray or talk to spirits. In each interview we took several breaks. When we talked about early trauma, James would change the subject, start hallucinating, or ask to take a break. Our first interview ended because James was fatigued. Our second interview ended when we ran out of time and James ended our third interview by abruptly excusing himself.

Narrative. The narrative I constructed for James flows more or less chronologically and draws from all three of our interviews. The interviews did not follow this same arc; instead we often returned to various topics both within interviews and across interviews. I start James’ narrative with his birth and early childhood. I concentrate on his confusion around his birth and his parents. We hear about physical, emotional, and sexual abuse. Then I move on to James’ experience of his parents and brothers, focusing on his contrasting descriptions of his parents. I discuss James’ experiences in relationships and review his history of alcohol use, suicide attempts, and “nervous breakdowns,” ending with how he ended up in Woodside State Hospital. Birth and Childhood. Starting with James’ date of birth and age, we find confusion. He is unsure of where and when he is born. James reports that he is two different ages: his true and older age and the official age in his records. I asked about his birth in the first interview. James explained, “I was born on April the 7th, 1974, in Mayo. But then I came to the United States at the age of like 1 or 2, and then on October 4th 1979, is when I was enlisted into the military intelligence. I just never, I never understood Americans.” “What was so confusing?” “The way they take everything for granted, you know? “Like, what do Americans take for granted?” I asked. “Their freedom, or their loved ones. Okay like, in Ireland, when somebody dies, they have an Irish wake and you celebrate their life. You know, and here, yes it’s natural to be sad when someone you know and love and care about dies. But like, I just grew up around all these rich people who would always be like, so sad, but, you know, it was like they were sad for themselves. And it might be a very pretentious thing to say, that. I never got anybody. Nobody ever made sense to me.” “Nobody ever made sense to you,” I repeated. “No, it was probably my moods.” “I don’t know,” I replied. “What do you think it might be?” James asked. “Well, I think that, in my experience when people have trouble making sense out of other people, it might be because they have had a lot of experiences that actually didn’t make sense with people when they were growing up,” I explained.

“Mmm-hmmm.” “When people are very inconsistent or do strange things, we have trouble learning how to make sense out of people.” Here is an example of my EPCP biases influencing how I approached the interviews. In my response to James, I provided him with my EPCP perspective on his experiences. James replied, “Yeah, my dad, the guy who, not my father, but the man who raised me used to beat the shit out of me with a belt. And then my mom just threw me in my room. The woman who raised me. Well, they weren’t my blood relatives but I call them my mom and dad. Well the man who raised me, the father who raised me, would beat the hell out of me [chuckles] for tapping my fingers, I feel like.” James tapped his fingers on the desk. He continued, “Like when you get real bored, or something you just. He would go ‘stop it.’ And I would keep on doing it. I wouldn’t even be paying attention, I would just do it without, without. It’s not like I was ignoring him, but I would just do it and the next thing I’d know, [chuckles] he’d be screaming at me and then my mom would just stick me in my room whenever I did anything that she didn’t like [chuckles]. I’d turn up the volume on the TV too loud and she’d send me to my room. All the time. And so my parents were these lunatic people [chuckles] and I’m supposed to be able to grow up and have kind of sane life. That’s why I joined the Marines.” James’ most basic descriptions of his parents varied throughout the interviews, starting with what he said here, that he has two sets of parents: his mother and father and then the man and woman who raised him. From an EPCP perspective, we can see James’ struggles with SOP very clearly around his parents. James was not adopted and had only one set of parents. Given his parents’ frightening, violent, unpredictable, and abusive behavior (which we will see more examples of), we can understand why James might come to believe that these people who raised him were not his real parents. Living in a world where real parents are not abusive and so these must be some other people who are raising him would help James cope with the horror of being dependent on adults who were unpredictably cruel. We will see James continue to struggle with SOP around his parents when he describes them in contradictory ways with no awareness of these contradictions. The way he refers to them makes it seem as if James has many more than two sets of parents (e.g., lunatic people, autistic, a mother like a guiding spirit, a cool father, etc.).

I tried to make sense out of James’ parent situation: “So I’m not sure, so the people you call your mother and father, they weren’t actually your parents?” “No my godfather was awesome, he was William McDougal.” “But your parents, the ones who raised you were?” “Were, I don’t even know how in the hell I met them. I just know that I was there one day.” James experienced his parents as just appearing. Another example of SOP difficulties; people just come and go. I was trying to get a sense of James’ life, so I tried to clarify, “Should I call the people who raised you your mother and father? Is that what you refer to them as?” “No, I just call them Mitch and Yvonne.” “Okay, Mitch and Yvonne. Okay, they are the people who raised you.” “Yeah.” I asked, “So Mitch is the one who would beat you with a belt?” “Yeah.” “And Yvonne would just put you in your room for no reason?” “Yeah, for like a week or 2 weeks at a time. She was like – ‘Well you have all of your toys in there.’ And I’m like [laughs] – ‘Yeah but nobody to, nobody to share time with!’ Sorry, I have to laugh, because I’m being hysterical.” “You’re getting hysterical?” I asked. “Yeah, when I laugh like that, it’s when I’m starting to get,” James replied and trailed off into mumbles. “Is it hard for you to talk about this?” “It is a little bit because it makes no sense.” I wanted to understand what was not making sense to him, so I asked, “It makes no sense that people would treat a child like that?” “No, like nothing. You were right before, with the conclusion you came to when you’re like- well, if nothing has ever made sense to somebody well that probably means that, um, he, [mumbles quickly] If people don’t make sense to him, he probably had a confusing life.” James validates that his life has been confusing (i.e., traumatic) and that he has struggled with making sense out of people. His experience supports the idea that overwhelming and

confusing trauma can interfere with one’s ability to understand people and form coherent, stable representations of others (i.e., SOP). We have already seen and will continue to see his struggles with SOP in the instability in his experiences and descriptions of himself and others. Returning to James’ birth, in the second interview James said, “I know I was born in Ireland, and I’ve lived in Dublin and Claire, Limerick, and uh, I think those are the three places I maybe may have.” When I asked about his earliest memory, he talked about playing in the snow at his aunt and uncle’s home in Indiana. James talked about coming over to America with his godfather when he was young. I asked where his parents were when he was coming over. James replied, “Since Tennessee is a close proximity to Macon, since Memphis is. They must have met each other, that’s how – where the hell. No that doesn’t make sense. I don’t even know how I got to be related unless I was born over here. I just – I don’t even know how I got over here. It doesn’t make sense.” “Maybe you were born here, I wonder.” “Maybe I was born here, but for some reason I remember a ship brought- maybe that was going over there and coming back when I was younger. I don’t know. But I know I’ve been over in Ireland. I might be a first generation. That’d make more sense. I don’t know.” Starting with James’ earliest memories, we can see his struggles with self-other permanence (SOP). First he is an immigrant, then he was born in America. James has contradictory ways of viewing himself, and, at times, such as when he was maintaining that he was born in Ireland, he is unaware of the conflict. When he starts to question how he could have been born in Ireland, we can see how he struggles to integrate the two contrasting narratives: “Okay, how it worked out, yeah, I was born in Ireland. My mother, my mother came over on a ship called the U.S.S. Enterprise. There might have been a third S to that. But and then I came over on the U.S.S. International. And so she docked in Memphis. I docked in Macon- Macon pardon me. And um, and so that’s where we, and so then they - they got back together, and that’s how I ended up. And then she – and we lived in Lexington for a while.” “Lexington, uh-huh,” I replied. “Yeah, and then moved up to Indiana. But yeah, I can’t remember most of my childhood. I don’t know if it’s from being too much_____ or what. And I’m not making up stories, and if I am, it’s not intentional.”

“I wonder if you have trouble remembering your childhood because there were some terrible things that happened to you,” I offered. “Well, that’s very well possible. I remember being in Belfast. Did I tell you this story last time?” “About the children being shot?” “Yeah. So I joined the IRA, and I applied for congressional medals of honor for being a hit man from the IRA.” As I guided the conversation towards early trauma, James’ issues with SOP start to emerge in the moment. He is suddenly a hit man from the IRA. I continued, “But I wonder about much earlier on if terrible things happened to you.” James replied, “No, not really. I was always kind of – okay, I’ll tell you something, and this is the primary reason why they call me psychotic or that I have a thought problem is that I believe that sometimes, angels come down to earth and they walk around. And I’m – and this is going to sound like a far stretch, but I have to be pretty creative to come up with this one. I’m the guardian angel of a cemetery in Ireland called Gallows Rest, and I’m supposed to be over there and not over here being questioned about my beliefs, not from you.” My repeating of the question about trauma elicits further SOP struggles. First he believes in angels, and then suddenly he too is an angel. He is completely unaware of these drastic shifts in identity. With these shifts, James is also able to avoid confronting traumatic memories and answering my questions. I shared my observation of this pattern with him: “I noticed that when I brought up the idea of really terrible things having happened to you when you were younger-” “That I change the subject.” “Yeah,” I replied. James continued, “Yeah um, well, that didn’t happen until we’d been in America for a while. And recently I realized my dad has autism. I was like, ‘Whoops.’ That’s actually what he has. He’s super, super smart, but people think that he’s stupid, like nobody understands what he’s talking about but me. And uh, so all about that – all that stuff about him hitting me, that wasn’t his fault. He’s just sort of a handicap, but he’s super smart, too.”

Here is another example of SOP issues: James’ father suddenly has autism and is now no longer responsible for the abuse. Blaming autism for his father’s abuse also helps James avoid the confusing question of why his father was abusive. “But he hit you.” I repeated, wanting to keep us focused on the abuse and not allow James to downplay what his father did. “He’d hit me, but – I mean there’s a ______. And I have leukemia from it. It fractured some of my bones.” “Fractured some of your bones, and you have leukemia from it. That sounds like it really made you sick if it gave you leukemia.” “Yeah it did. But it’s not like I’m going to do anything about it. It’s too late now. But it’s not like it was his fault either. He would always just feel really, really, really self-conscious because he was worried that, that we wouldn’t love him or that he would lose ______because he was in Vietnam. And so he - I even think he was a drill instructor for a little while.” James continued to search for ways make sense of his father’s violence: “I think sometimes the flashbacks would just hit him, you know, more than anything. I think the flashbacks would hit him.” I asked, “And then what would happen? He would…” “He, he would just snap. He wouldn’t punch us. He wouldn’t pull guns on us. He was just mad because, every once in a while, he would hit us with a belt.” James’ father was unpredictably violent- he would “just snap.” Living with someone who is unpredictably violent and prone to snapping for no discernable reason would be very stressful and frightening. James’ explanation that his father was mad because he hit them with a belt suggests how disorganizing this violence was for James. We would expect James to say that his father hit them with a belt because he was mad, not the reverse. I asked, “But it would happen randomly. He would just snap?” “Yeah, that was with – that was when – that was when I had the most confusing. That’s the way it is. That’s what it is. And we all [sighs] came out pretty strong.” James states that he was confused and we can see that his speech is disorganized. I wanted to know how old James was when the abuse started, so I asked, “Okay, I’m wondering, so when was the youngest you can remember when he did that to you?”

James replied, “I don’t know. I was, I was like – see my birth certificate is all screwed up.” James laughed and continued, “Okay, the youngest I can remember would be 9. Because I’ve had leukemia since I was 9, and I’m like actually 47. I mean that, but so let’s see, that would have been, fuck, 38 years ago. And he hit me maybe when I was 10 a few times, and 11 a few times. But it was mostly when I was 9. But if you subtract a whole bunch of time, a whole bunch of years, you know, I thought I was like 3 or something, and so uh– or 6. I don’t know how old I thought I was. But there was uh, a lot of, a lot of discontent in all of this. Not all of us. There’s a lot of discontent in him and just the way the family was, and, you know, he felt responsible for the family, like just the stress from working and, and everything just got to him, you know. He just, he handled it the Irish way.” It is clear that the abuse started before James was 9. He says he thinks he was “3 or something,” which seems accurate, especially because, as we will see in the third interview, he says he was 3 when his father started sexually abusing him. I wanted to get a better sense of James’ experience of the abuse, so I said, “I wonder what it was like for you when he would hit you.” “I was mostly like, uh, well, most of the time to be honest with you what was more terrible was when my mom would hit me, not hit me, was when my mom would send me to my room to be all by myself, and I look out the window and everybody was out there playing. I’d be stuck in my room because I said the wrong thing or did something that she didn’t want me to do. But like, it wasn’t intentional.” We see more confusion- first it is more terrible when his mother would hit him, then he says his mother did not hit him. James used his parents supposed autism as an excuse for their behavior and I wanted to continue to explore his experience of them. I stayed with his belief that they had autism and asked, “How did your parents’ autism affect you?” James replied, “They never made sense. I was like, uh, ‘Hmm, what is up these peoples’ asses?’” I asked, “Can you remember some experiences where you had that thought, like what is up these peoples’ asses?” “Yeah, mostly all of the time. Oh yeah what I was going to get back to was the worst part would be like where my - where my mom would uh be wanting to send me to my room, and I’d

be like telling her, ‘You spank me instead.’ And he’d just hit me a few times, and be like, ‘Okay, there’s your punishment.’ So I’d actually go to my dad and ask him to hit me instead of being stuck in my room for a week. And then I was like, ‘Can I go out and play?’ And he’s like, ‘Yeah, I don’t care.’” James laughed. “You’d rather be beaten than sent to your room?” I asked. “Well I wouldn’t call it beaten. I was never - I was never – [makes noise and motions hard blows] It was more like with a belt than actually fists, not actually beaten down like in a bar fight or something.” It is interesting that James corrects me and says he would not call it beaten, because in the first interview he said, “The man who raised me used to beat the shit out of me with a belt.” With difficulties around SOP we see shifts like this where first something was one way and then later is it significantly different. Continuing in the second interview, I replied, “Okay, it’s still painful.” “It hurts, but you get over hurt. You get over the pain,” explained James. “But being stuck in your room for a week-” “That really traumatizes you.” James laughed. James described being shut in his room for a week as traumatizing. He even sought physical punishment as an alternative- preferring his father’s belt to the isolation. We get a sense of his childhood as alternating between unpredictable violence and long periods of being alone. It is understandable that James found his parents very confusing and struggled to make sense of people. I started the third interview by asking James if we could run through the major events of his life, starting with when he was born. James said, “I was born in apparently Limerick, Ireland and then I served in the IRA for probably around 65, I was born in 61, I probably served around anywhere from 63 to 65 until 70, then I moved to, Mayfair, Georgia. And I lived there for a couple of years and then.” “How old were you when you moved to Mayfair?” I asked. “I would’ve been like 12, 10 or 12, 11 or 12. And then immediately after I got there, I went and enlisted in the marines cause it was right by- right by a navy station.” “So you enlisted in the marines when you were 12?”

“Thirteen. I’d told you I’d served in the IRA for between 7 and 10 years. And so, they’re like- ‘Well aren’t you kind of young?’ And I was like, ‘Well I served in the IRA for this long.’ They’re like- ‘Well, okay son.’ And so they sent me on my way. Yeah so whenever I was in, I was in um, Vietnam and Cambodia, I was in one of those tiger cages for a while. And, that was to set- that was to set an officer free. That was during the-” I redirected James and asked him to tell me more about his mom and dad. “My father is William McDougal. And, I don’t even know- I can’t recall who my mother is. Do you care if I pray about it for a second? Maybe I’ll get an answer.” In the first interview, James said that William McDougal was his godfather. We see SOP issues around peoples’ identities. Someone changes from being a godfather to his father with no explanation. He cannot remember who his mother is; it is as if she disappears and reappears. I told James, “Go ahead and pray about it.” After a 45 second pause, James continued, “Erin O’Connor. We lived in Georgia for a while and then I moved to- to Piedmont, Indiana. Started out in Limerick and then here in America started out in Georgia.” “What do you remember about your family there?” I asked. “I don’t remember anything prior to, let’s see, 1982, 1981, 1982. And um, that’s when my work began, I was telling you with Operation Stargate. When I was telling you before about what I used to do to track down criminals. I was with the criminal investigations unit, and so about all I can remember is these like these terribly traumatic things.” James introduced his involvement with Operation Stargate in our second interview when I tried to make space for him to talk about sexual abuse. At this point let us go back to that point in the second interview when James started talking about Operation Stargate: I said, “So you’ve talked about a number of painful things from your childhood and other traumas that you’ve suffered. You know, I won’t say anything else about those. But um, you haven’t mentioned anything sexual.” “Yeah, I don’t know what sexually has happened,” replied James. “Nobody ever touched you or…,” I asked. “Not that I remember, I could – I mean um… nobody ever touched me, but, cshhhhhh, I was, I was so exposed to that so many times in my line of work for the government that it kind of always stuck with me. So it was kind of always like well, I don’t want to ever come on to

anybody unless they flat out come on to me. Like yeah, sure, I’d love to go out with you. But, as far as me being touched, I can’t remember anything.” Because there was a reference in his chart to sexual abuse, I continued to question whether he could not remember or did not want to remember, so I offered, “I wonder if it might have happened and you’ve forgotten it.” “Or maybe I was so aware of it happening all around me, none of my family have been in my line of work. I’m not making it up. Watch Operation – not watch Operation Soviet. Watch Suspect Zero and if you truly care about what I’m trying to tell you, watch the movie Suspect Zero, and then you’ll see what I did when I was younger, and not what I did myself to children, but I was, I was like Ben Kingsley, the main actor. So I don’t know whether it happened to me or whether it happened to 1,050 – 1,500 – probably 1,057 children that I found out about. Okay.” I had a hunch that James was using Operation Stargate to talk about his own abuse, so I suggested, “You don’t know if it happened to you or if it happened to the children that you found out about.” “Mm-hmmm,” agreed James. “Yeah. What did you find out about those children?” I asked. James hesitated and then continued, “Okay, I’ve uh – okay, I found 2,058 children who were dead, who were missing, who’d been abducted from their parents, and 1,047 who were alive. Okay, and this was from ’81 to ’86. And they, uh, had been tortured and raped and beaten all by the most likeable people you could imagine. What I learned in working for the Army Special Intelligence Units Criminal Investigation Operation Stargate was that it was normally the most outgoing, the most friendly, not the ones who keep to themselves like everybody wants to peg them as. If somebody ever insinuates that you have done something that means that they have done it themselves. I learned that for a fact.” James sighed and continued, “Um, I don’t mean from my professional point of view, I mean from – what?” [James whispers and listens to voices]– “okay.” – “James, are you okay?” I asked. “Yeah, well welcome to Operation Gateway, Lieutenant Colonel.” As we started to get closer to talking about James’ own trauma, James’ struggles with SOP become worse. James was listening and responding to voices that suddenly started talking to him. Hearing voices that appear and disappear is an example of SOP difficulties.

James seemed anxious and so I tried to reassure him, “We’re safe here.” James continued, “Okay. I was a Lieutenant General in general with Operation Stargate, and they made me a Major General, and I said, ‘Bullshit. I’m a Lieutenant General at the least.’ So I don’t know which part to – I can’t stand to see children hurt. It fucking makes me sick as hell, and that’s what I did for a long time, and the older I got and the more I thought about it, the more I thought about it, the more I thought about it. I just, I like, I just became this – a raging alcoholic so I wouldn’t have to think about it. Nobody, but nobody, but nobody could understand what it was like. You know to, uh, be exposed to those things and they’re like, ‘Yeah, almost everybody that’s involved in Operation Stargate ends up either criminally insane – either being labeled criminally insane or ends up in a mental hospital for years at a time.’ But I was exposed to the worst in people, like the very most vile, disguising, most terrible things in people you can possibly imagine, which is why I became a sniper, and I had no remorse.” “What did you see? What did they do to the children?” I asked. “You want to know? Okay, they’d be like, ‘Come over here. We’ll go um, we’ll go to the, we’ll go and uh - do you want me to buy you some popcorn?’ ‘Sure, I love that, mister.’ ‘Okay, come over here.’ Then grab them up real quick. ‘Hey, you said that you’d buy me some popcorn. Mom! Dad!’ But they’re too far away already. ‘Shut up, you little bastard.’ Um, this isn’t a confession. These are all things that I’ve heard. And the next thing you know, he has them in a van. They almost always drove vans. Either that or they drive like really nice sedans because they almost always either vans or sedans. Men in trucks were normally the ones that drive with – like the ones that drive with a shotgun on a rack. That’s the type of guy I am, even if I do have a nice car, a nice motorcycle. But like, they were the ones on the lookout for like sexual predators, like child sexual predators. And just think of predator in the most literal sense. That’s what they would do to them.” I asked, “So they would?” “They would molest them and beat them and then kill them until they find their next victim. And these were like, these were like 3 and 4-year-old children.” It is not clear how much of this is what James actually experienced. Obviously he was not killed but he may have wished he died or felt like he was going to die. Again, when he finally acknowledges that he was sexually abused in the third interview, his age when the abuse started matches up with the “3 and 4-year-old children” he is talking about here. At this point in our

second interview, I still was not sure what had happened to James, so I tried to encourage him to continue talking about the children and their experiences. I asked, “They’d be molested and beaten and killed or left for dead?” “Mm-hmmm.” “It must have been so scary for those children,” I said. “No shit,” replied James. “It must have been so terrible. You have such vivid memories of these things.” “They don’t go away,” replied James. I wanted to try to see if James could come closer to talking about his own experience, so I tentatively repeated, “You said you weren’t sure if they happened to the children or to you?” “No, I wasn’t. I said like well if somebody did touch me, I don’t care, it didn’t really affect me. I was a little bit too grown up for that. [chuckles] ‘Hey- you cop a feel?’” James does not outright deny that he was abused. Instead he attempts to minimize the effect such abuse would have on him, if he had been abused. He continued, “That was my attitude. ‘Hey, you copped a feel.’” I was confused so I repeated, “Hey, you copped a feel?” “Yeah.” I tried to clarify – “Someone touched you?” James responded, “If – if they did, that would have been my attitude. I can’t remember a lot. Most of it has been blacked out.” We do not know what has been blacked out. It seems James could be referring to abuse. It would make sense that he would black out most of those memories. At any rate, blacking out large portions of his memory suggests that there was significant trauma. I hoped he would be able to offer more clues, so I asked, “What do you remember?” James responds by changing the subject, “What else I remember? Um, are you interested in this line of work?” I explained, “I’m interested in bearing witness to peoples’ stories. Helping people who’ve been through terrible things.” James replied, “Well the ones that I was aware of didn’t make it through. Well, okay, one-third made it through. And they were traumatized for life, and they would normally never ever, ever, ever get better. I mean they can told that they’re loved and their cared about and,

‘We’re so happy we found you.’ ‘Yeah, but why did that guy do that?’ ‘Because he was sick.’ ‘Yeah, but why did that guy do that?’ ‘I don’t know. I just – I don’t know why he did that.’ ‘Why did he do that?’ ‘I don’t know.’” “That’s always a tough question. You said you’ve blacked out most of it. What-” James interrupted me, saying, “Just like combat.” James tried to change the subject, and I attempted to guide us back to his early experiences: “Uh-huh, but this was before the combat.” “Mm-hmmm.” “What do you remember?” I asked. “Except for with IRA. But yeah.” James was referring to when he supposedly worked for the IRA starting when he was 2 years old. I asked, “Yeah, what do you remember?” “About? See my, my child-, my ah, I always, I always thought when people thought about themselves that was – I mean not that you shouldn’t live the life that God gave you, but from my point of view, putting yourself in front of others just makes me sick. It’s just like, you don’t do anything but suck your own cock.” “If you put yourself in front of others?” I asked. “Mm-hmmm.” I tried to redirect us again: “I’m wondering if we, what you were just saying though about ‘why did that man do that?’ ‘I don’t know.’ ‘why did that – why did he do it?’ ‘I don’t know.’” “Yeah?” I asked, “I’m wondering if you were that child?” “Nope, I was a part of that child,” replied James. We see how trauma has disrupted James’ development of SOP and fractured James’s sense of self; rather than describing his own experience, he talks as if these things happened to someone else. When I suggest that he might be the child, he acknowledges that he is a part of that child. I replied, “You were part of that child?” James responded by repeating a song lyric we talked about earlier in the interview: “If you die, then that’s the way it is. If you die, I die, that’s the way it is.” He originally brought up the lyric in response to me asking about his relationships:

James said, “I’m sorry I don’t have more to offer about relationships.” “That’s okay.” “I just say like, there’s this Pennywise song. You know who they are?” “Who?” I asked. “Pennywise,” James repeated. “Pennywise? No I don’t,” I admitted. James explained, “Okay, they’re a hardcore band. And they, uh, have this song about their bass player who had died, and they say, ‘If you die, that’s the way it is.’ And that’s always, like, the way I felt about my friends, and uh, and people I care about.” “So if you die, that’s the way it is?” “If you, if you die, I die. That’s the way it is,” clarified James. “Oh, if you die, I die, and that’s the way it is,” I repeated. “Mm-hmm.” “I see. So you feel like without them you would die.” James replied, “Not necessarily without them. It’s like if you lose your life I’ve lost my life.” James expressed his issues with self versus other beautifully. There is no separation between himself and the other person; therefore, when the other dies, he dies too. Viewed as a more extreme struggle with SOP, James’ sense of himself is so tenuous and connected to others, that he is at risk of disappearing or dying if the other person goes. Returning now to James and my discussion of his connection to the child he described, I asked James again, “What do you remember?” He replied, “See, I was never sexually molested if that’s what you’re trying to get at.” “Okay,” I said. “It wasn’t me. It was me being an eye witness, a testimony. My reports would show up in court, never what I did. Well, I did this, this, this, this, this, this. Some captains did, some major ______Lieutenant Colonels ___. That’s when I got out, but then once I got back in, they made me a Major General. Okay, so now I’m a Major General. And that’s the only work I’m going back into.” We see two more examples of James’ difficulties with SOP. James went from indicating that he might have been a victim (“I was a part of that child”) to saying he was not molested.

Also, James is suddenly a Major General. It seemed that our discussion of childhood trauma, which did not even directly address James’ own experiences, triggered his memories enough to activate his difficulties with SOP. Thus, his early trauma is connected to SOP issues. For the few remaining minutes of the second interview, James talked about Operation Stargate and conversed with voices. Now that we have the background on Operation Stargate, we can return to early in the third interview, when I asked James about his early memories of his family and he replied, “I don’t remember anything prior to, let’s see, 1982, 1981, 1982. And um, that’s when my work began, I was telling you with Operation Stargate. When I was telling you before about what I used to do to track down criminals. I was with the criminal investigations unit, and so about all I can remember is these like these terribly traumatic things.” I reflected, “Yeah. You remember terribly traumatic things.” “Mm-hmmm.” “And I wonder if some of those happened to you,” I said. “I don’t know. I don’t think it’s like some kind of psycho-social phenomenon. I believe that- I mean I know that my MOS was 08248.” James expresses confusion over his memories and then moves into military delusions. His preference to talk about delusional military trauma makes sense for several reasons: if the trauma is military-based instead of from his childhood, then he did not have terrible parents and was an adult rather than a helpless child. James also avoids the terror that would accompany reconnecting with the true traumatic memories. Trauma seems to connect to the emergence of difficulties with SOP. James continued, “My MOS- my military occupational specialty, or job designation is 08248. And there is no way I would know that number if I didn’t actually have that number. It’s not like I’m just pulling numbers out of the air. So I know a lot. Now you mean like in, you mean like spiritually or like on some psychological level? Yeah that did happen to me. But as far as like, physically being kidnapped and tortured and beaten to death, no that didn’t happen to me.” “So it happened to you on a spiritual level?” James added, “Or psychological level.” I replied, “Psychological level. Tell me about that.”

“Well it’s like you put yourself in the place of the victims. And you know you do that day in and day out and life becomes pretty bizarre.” “Tell me more about the bizarreness,” I said. “Well it’s like- what the hell’s up? It’s like, what’s that guy going to do- kill me? What the hell is he looking at me for?” “What is he looking at me for?” I repeated. “Yeah, and just things like that,” replied James. “Can you remember a specific instance where you thought someone was-” “Yeah I can. There was one time when I was 6 or 7, at least here in America, I’ll just use here in America times. Instead of being 51- instead of being 51 I’ll be, let’s see it’s, I’ll be 32. So let’s just say I’m 32.” [James was actually 32 at the time of the interviews.] “Okay.” I replied. “Okay, when I was 6 or 7, I was in the backyard and this guy pulled up in a truck and he looked like he could have been a friend of my dad’s or maybe not. He would say- ‘You want to go for a ride?’ And then I was like, ‘Well, I don’t know. Do you know my dad?’ ‘Oh yeah, I’m good friends with your dad.’ _____four of my friends were playing with me in my back yard. And this was in a church parking lot where this happened. Like, there was a grass back yard ___ parking lot. And he pulled into a church parking lot, and uh, he goes, well, um, um,” [pause] [turns and talks silently] James is talking about a potentially real traumatic memory and suddenly he starts hallucinating. Again, it seems that trauma triggers hallucinations (i.e., SOP difficulties). I asked James, “Who were you talking to just then?” “Uh, guided by voices, um.” “Guided by voices?” I repeated. “Yeah, they’re a band.” “Ok. Were you just hearing a voice?” I asked. “Yeah, I’m guided by voices, yeah. Um, and, um, so he stopped me from going with him and the guy pulled- the guy drove away.” “Your friend stopped you from going with him?” “Yeah otherwise I would’ve- I would’ve been one of those ___ who was abducted. So yeah, in a lot of ways I did become one of those victims. If that’s what you’re getting at, I mean

if you’re getting- my dad did warn us through prayer and through actual uh study- not study ______overall body structure that my dad hit me so hard that he fractured my bones. And that gave me leukemia and that spread up into my brain. Which is why a lot of times, like I might not seem so coherent. And I’m also on like, uh, generic Seconal and generic Halcion. And I think even generic Phenobarbital. And um,” I redirected, “So your dad hit you so hard, he fractured your bones. How old were you when he did that to you?” “Um, 3 in American years.” “Three,” I repeated. “See I look- I look so much younger because I had a total meltdown in ‘78 when I met him. And it was actually a nice warm loving guy before he got involved in witchcraft and became a warlock.” James is starting to talk about the trauma of his father physically abusing him at age 3 when his issues with SOP are activated. The symptoms protect him from the overwhelming pain of talking about the trauma and from having to make sense out of having an abusive father. James describes his father here as essentially two different people: “a nice warm loving guy” and “a warlock.” The safe and loving father is separated from the evil father. Also, James can blame the witchcraft for his father’s malevolence, locating it outside and separate from the man he depended on. I repeated, “Your dad was a nice warm loving guy before he got involved in witchcraft and became a warlock?” “Mm-hmmm.” “So, you were, 3 when you met him? How old were you?” “I met him in ’78, so I would’ve been 17.” James’ narrative shifts suddenly, without any awareness on his part. He was 3 when his father hit him, but somehow he was 17 when he met his father. I tried to follow James, so I said, “Ok, so tell me about meeting him.” “I can’t say, I don’t remember anything prior. I remember like bits and pieces of screams and yells and it seemed like whole areas where there had been vegetation, and there had been air raids that went through there.”

We started to get close to something horrific and suddenly James shifts into combat again. “There had been what?” I asked. “Air raids. Where they had dropped bombs and clear out a general area _____. I remember the jungles.” “You said you remember screams and yells.” “Yeah.” “Who was screaming and yelling?” I asked. “It happens all the time in combat.” “I wonder if you remember screams and yells from your family too,” I offered. “I remember my brothers coming to me crying and me holding them and hugging them.” “What were they crying for?” I asked. “My dad hit them too.” “Uh huh. He was abusive.” “Incredibly,” agreed James. James confirmed that the confusion, yelling, and horror he attributes to combat trauma is actually early memories of his father abusing him and his brothers. James described his father as “incredibly” abusive. Truly, James has had trouble believing and making sense out of how the person who was his real father could do these things. After a pause, James changed the subject, asking, “So how about those Cubs?” It was very difficult for him to talk about these painful experiences. He continued to shift to combat stories. I brought us back to his early childhood, asking, “Could you tell me more about your memories from America? You said you have bits and pieces.” “A lot of,” James paused and then continued, “very, a lot very very um, nothing but confusion.” “Nothing but confusion,” I repeated. “Nothing but confusion,” reiterated James. “Yeah. What was so confusing?” I asked. “Um, well being hit. And being put in my room. And, my parents didn’t know how to raise kids. So I raised my brothers.”

James’ memories of the abuse are becoming clearer. He also explained that being abused, being hit and put in his room, was confusing. He struggled to make sense out of the abuse. I tried to clarify, “So what do you mean by, ‘They didn’t know how to raise kids’?” “They had no idea how to raise kids. Both of them were autistic.” “So how did they act towards you and your brothers?” James explained, “Well they weren’t as hard on them as they were on me.” “They were harder on you?” I asked. “Yes, a lot harder.” “A lot harder. How were they harder on you?” “They hit me more, they sent me to my room more. For doing nothing. I’d be going like this,” James tapped his fingers on the table. “Just drumming your fingers on the table,” I said. “Yeah. And, um, [pause] and he’d go, ‘Quit it.’ I wouldn’t even be thinking about it. It’s like- it’s like one of those things just like, um, if you have a piece of gum in your mouth, you chew it. You know, it was just like one of those things. Next thing I know he’d be taking me and spanking me. Taking me into the bedroom and spanking me. And, so I, I don’t know.” “So your dad would take you in the bedroom and spank you?” I asked. “Mm-hmmm.” “How did you feel when he was doing that?” “I was like- ‘What the hell are you doing?’ He was- he was ordered by the police to stay a thousand feet from me. After the first time, the whole town could hear me screaming at him. The police department could hear me screaming.” Here James talks about his own screaming in response to his father spanking him. Based on how we tied the screams from combat to James’ and his brothers’ screams, it seems reasonable to assume that combat is a safer way for James to talk about his early traumatic experiences. I repeated, “You were screaming.” “Mmm.” “It must’ve hurt,” I suggested. “It hurt- he fractured my bones. Yeah it hurt.”

James came close to talking about being sexually abused in the second interview, but still distanced himself from the events by saying he was “part of” the child who was abused and then denying it. I had hoped he would talk about it, but eventually I decided to share with him that I had read about it in his chart to see if he would acknowledge it. I started by saying, “Yeah. I’m wondering if, it said in your chart that you’d been sexually abused.” “Well, probably so.” “Probably so,” I repeated. “Mm-hmmm.” “How old were you when that happened?” I asked. “Like 3 in American years.” “Three in American years. Who was it?” “My dad.” “What did he do to you?” I asked. James replied, “What do you think? _____ anal penetration.” “And you were just three?” “Mm-hmmm.” James confirms that his father sexually abused him, starting at age 3. That is the earliest he remembers. There could be earlier abuse he only has preverbal memories of. Sexual abuse violates physical boundaries, which can lead to the sorts of confusion around self and other that we see with James, such as when he said things like “if you die, I die too.” I wanted to know more about the abuse. I asked, “How many times did it happen?” “I don’t know. Cause you don’t like- you don’t normally keep track of these things.” “Yeah, it happened a lot then, over and over?” I asked. “I guess.” “How did you feel when it happened?” James replied, “I just laughed at him, and told him he must be the biggest queer I ever met.” “Did anybody know?” I asked. “No.” “So was it only your father?”

“Mm-hmmm,” James agreed. “Ok. That must’ve been really confusing.” “Yeah,” replied James. “And did your mom know?” I asked. “I don’t know, I think she knew but I think she was too afraid to say anything.” “She was afraid?” James explained, “Yeah. I told her later on. But first what I want to get back to my parents but um, why don’t um, I uh, go to… ‘Why don’t you go to, uh, the police.’ I go, I told my mom, ‘Why don’t you go to the police’, and she- “I’m sorry, what did you say?” “I said, ‘Mom, why don’t you go to the police?’ And she said, ‘Well because, my dad- your dad will kill all of us.’ She was that afraid of him. That’s why she wouldn’t turn him- she wouldn’t do anything. She wasn’t afraid for her own life, she was afraid for my brothers’ lives.” James gives us a better sense of how dangerous his father was. His own mother would not stand up to James’ father because she was afraid that he would kill her and the children. “How old were you when you told her?” I asked. “Probably about 6. I was ____ I want to go back to my old parents.” I was not sure what he meant by going back to his old parents, so I repeated, “I want to go back to my old parents?” “Mm-hmmm.” “And she was afraid that he would kill you, kill you and your brothers?” “Yeah,” confirmed James. “Did he threaten to kill-” “He probably did to her.” I asked, “Do you remember him threatening your mom?” “I- I remember him beating my mom, but one time my stepmother said to me, ‘Now I don’t know if your dad made love to your mom or if he raped her.’” We find out that James was exposed to the trauma of witnessing domestic violence. It is also clear that his stepmother has poor boundaries and shared inappropriate information with James.

To summarize, James grew up with an “incredibly” abusive father who physically abused the family and sexually abused James. James’ father was unpredictable, prone to “snap” and hit members of the family. James witnessed his father abusing his mother. He remembers his younger brothers screaming and coming crying to him after his father hurt them. James’ mother did not intervene because she was afraid that his father would kill the children. James’ memories of his childhood are fragmented and shrouded with confusion. Understandably, James struggled to make sense of these experiences and his parents. We get a deeper sense of how terrible these experiences were for James when, towards the end of the third interview, he talks about his survivor’s guilt leading to suicide attempts. I brought up the subject, saying, “Ok. Um, I know you’ve tried to kill yourself- a number of times. I’m wondering what would make you want to kill yourself so many times.” James replied, “Because I don’t like life.” “You don’t-” “I don’t like my life.” “What don’t you like about it?” I asked. “If you haven’t been here for 14 months as a patient, you probably don’t understand.” I reflected, “It’s really hard being locked up in here. But even before you got in here you tried to kill yourself.” “Mm-hmmm.” “What was so bad about your life before then?” James replied, “It’s called survivors guilt.” “Can you say more about that?” “I can’t get into it. I’ll try. I think I went through this, I think I discussed this with you before. I _____ Special Operation Stargate more often. [pause] Just going into combat a lot of times. Numerous times. The average casualty rate was 25%. It was really really really messed up.” James mumbled to someone invisible and then paused to listen. I asked, “Who are you talking to? James, who were you hearing right then?” “The special forces _____.” “What were they saying?” “I was trying to figure out the time that I served. It was 23 years with the Seals, 7 years as a reconnaissance sniper and 5 years as a reconnaissance Black Ops, um.”

I repeated, “But you were saying you feel guilt for surviving?” “Yeah. Like, why me?” If we assume that much of James’ memories from Operation Stargate and combat relate to his own trauma, then he is questioning why he survived his childhood. Notice as he talks about the trauma, his difficulties with SOP arise again; he returned to his delusions and started hallucinating- voices appeared. I focused on his question, “Why did you survive? Why you? The question is, ‘Why you?’ How do you feel when you think about, ‘Why me?’” James replied, “I don’t know, it’s like questioning Job. You know what I’m saying. You know, Yahweh you made a mistake.” “Pardon?” “You know, it’s like questioning Job,” repeated James. “Job?” “The (god) Job. I believe in the Hebrew gods.” “Ok.” “And (it) was like saying, Yahweh you made a mistake. You know, it’s like questioning god. My gods.” “What mistake?” I asked. “In keeping me alive and all that______. It’s like telling them they made mistake.” James seems to be saying that the gods made a mistake in keeping him alive. His childhood was so terrible that he should not have survived. We talked for a few more minutes, but when I asked him when was the first time he tried to kill himself, James replied, “a long time ago.” He then excused himself and said goodbye, ending our final interview. James repeated several times throughout the interviews that he never understood his parents. In the second interview following his description of his father hitting him and his mother locking him in his room, he said, “But what I do know is there was something wrong with the way I was raised that has really impacted and influenced, um, the way that I interact with people in general. I don’t like to – I really don’t like to engage in conversations that often, and it isn’t antisocial or a sociopath or a psychopath, I really just prefer to be quiet and just go by a riverbank and fish by myself or with one or two friends and smoke cigarettes and catch fish.”

I replied, “Yeah, I wonder what it is about the way you were raised that has affected you so profoundly.” “I don’t know. Sometime before my mom dies, I have to ask her. I already know – I figured out what happened with my dad. He, he would try so hard to make my mom happy, but I’m pretty sure that she’s the one who’s manic-depressive. Oh, but back to that story about me having an IQ test done. They thought I was mentally handicapped.” James knows that there was something wrong with his childhood and that it has affected how he interacts with people. When he tries to explain what affected him, first he does not know and then he does know. The abrupt contradiction is another example of SOP difficulties. James was trying to change the subject, but I was not ready to move on yet, so I asked, “Okay, can we stay with-” “Yeah, we can stay with that, but I wasn’t.” “Okay, I believe you,” I said. “That, yeah. And uh…” I started to say, “You said you thought your mom-” James interrupted me, saying, “It was just turmoil all over is all, and that’s what I was saying. “Turmoil,” I repeated. “Turmoil,” reiterated James. It seems that if James summed up his experiences from childhood in one word, it would be “turmoil.” With such a confusing history, it makes sense that James’ development of SOP was disrupted. Contrasting views of mother and father. James’ development of SOP was disrupted by the difficulties he encountered around making sense of depending on unpredictable and violent caregivers. We have already seen several examples of his disparate perceptions of his parents (e.g., real parents versus the people who raised him and his father being “a nice warm loving guy” before he became a warlock). At this point I will focus on the conflicting characterizations of his parents that James presented throughout the interviews. In the first interview, before he talks about being hit and thrown in his room, James said, “It’s weird because I’m trying to think back to when I was younger. I mean like, my parents loved me and everything. I just, I just never understood anything.”

James’ views of his father, who is presumably also the man who raised him, contrasted sharply. As mentioned before, in the first interview, James said, “The man who raised me used to beat the shit out of me with a belt… the father who raised me, would beat the hell out of me.” Then in the second interview, when I asked who James could turn to for comfort when he was young, he said, “My dad. Or my mom. Mostly my dad.” I followed up with, “And what would happen when you went to him?” James replied, “He’d always pick me up and um, he was always just somebody to lean on and hug. And he was real cool.” This “real cool” supportive dad seems very different from the father who raised him and would “beat the hell out of” him. In the third interview, James said, “My dad was more like my best friend. And then something happened.” “What happened?” I asked. “I don’t know what happened to him.” I tried to clarify, “This is your dad or the dad that raised you?” “My father, my dad who raised (not) my father.” “Ok, your dad who raised you, so he was like your best friend and then,” James continued, “Yeah, and then, and then something happened. And he- he started, just messing with my head and, doing all kinds of crazy things.” James’ father goes from being his best friend to messing with James. The switch is sudden and without explanation. Rather than being one person who was sometimes loving and supportive and at other times violent and abusive, James experiences his father as multiple people who change without explanation. Drastic and conflicting perceptions such as these demonstrate difficulties with SOP as James essentially describes multiple disconnected fathers who come and go. James did not talk about his mother as much. In the first interview he talked about her throwing him in his room. In the second interview, James says that his mother, “is more like a guiding spirit.” I asked, “What do you mean by that?”

James replied, “I mean she’s a – she kind of comes when I need her the most. But then the - the thing is all I need to do is see her and she will bring me like something to eat or whatever, but. She’ll bring me something to eat, some food. Yeah, some food and something to drink. I don’t have a lot to say to her. She’s more like, ‘Well, just go along with the program. You’ll get out soon enough.’” Later on in the interview as a follow-up to something James said, I asked, “Okay, so when you said if I let – if I said more of what I was thinking I wouldn’t-” “Be on medications.” “Yeah. I’m wondering when you were younger, what you should have, what you would have said that you didn’t say?” “Well, I just one day snapped and started telling my mom that I hated her.” James laughed, and continued, “Both of us were arguing. I was like, ‘Mom, I hate you. Mom, I hate you. Hey mom, I hate you over there sitting on the couch. Yeah I fucking hate you.’ I was running the______vacuum sweeper.” First his mom is “more like a guiding spirit” who comes when he needs her, and then he talks about hating her. “You hated your mom?” I asked. “Yeah,” confirmed James. James has sharply contrasting views of his mother that seem difficult to integrate. She is a benevolent guiding spirit and he hates her. She did not protect him from his father. James had to deal with complicated and ambivalent feelings towards his mother starting at age well before his meaning making had adequately developed. Such confusing disparities likely contributed to the disruption of his development of SOP, which continues to manifest in terms of the current vacillations in his description of his mother. Brothers. James did not spend much time talking about his brothers outside of the first interview. James first introduced one of his brothers when he was talking about seeing things. He said, “I see visions of my youngest brother who is in the marines. Um, going around doing, these things that like, it’s like he has a changed face.” “A changed face?” I asked. “He looks so much younger, and it’s really cool. I want to see him so much, but I can’t see him in here. I can’t get the money to get on a plane to go out there and see him.”

James’ struggles with SOP result in him hallucinating his younger brother with a “changed face.” For James, the vision is “really cool” because he wants to see his brother, but cannot go out and visit him. Someone with a stronger grasp of SOP might be bothered by the “changed face,” because it would signal to them that something was wrong, raising concerns. However, James seems to see nothing unusual about his brother appearing and looking “so much younger” than he should. I reflected, “You can’t get the money to get on a plane and go out there and see him?” “No, I’m in here.” “Yeah. Where is he?” I asked. “He’s in Oregon. I mean deployed. I don’t know.” I continued, “So your youngest brother-” “Is in the marines.” “How old is he?” I asked. “He’s 22.” “What’s his name?” “Carl.” I asked, “So what do you see him doing when you see him?” “I just see him walking by.” [chuckles] “I see him. One time he goes, I heard” [laughs] “I heard him say something off in the distance, he goes – it’s like – ‘Whoa! I almost threw up my own waste when I saw that.’” “I almost threw up my own waste?” I repeated. “I almost threw up my own waste when I saw that” [chuckles], “I just hear him say different things like that” [mumbles] – ______. “Are those things he’s said to you in real life?” I asked. “No, I just hear different voices. So that’s how I ended up here.” Later in the first interview, we talked about James’ childhood and he brought up his brothers. I asked, “So it was you and Mitch and Yvonne growing up? James added, “And Austin and Adam. Cause Adam’s middle name is Carl. I’m just, I’m not sure if he’s with the Special Forces like I was in. Adam, I’m not exactly sure what he’s doing with the Marines, but me, I was a scout sniper.” “So Carl, is with the Marines and he’s 22 now.”

“Yeah,” replied James. “And he lives in Oregon.” “It’s outside of Portland,” explained James. “Okay and then your other brother?” “Austin.” “How old is Austin?” I asked. “Um, 26 or 27.” “So the three of you grew up together,” I said. “Yeah, I pretty much was Adam’s godfather and I pretty much raised Adam.” “You raised Adam,” I repeated. “I used to tease him a little bit, but I wish I hadn’t. About being overweight, but then he. He’s awesome. He either works for the government or he, I’m pretty sure he works for the government too.” I said, “So, um, you said you raised Carl. You pretty much raised Carl.” “Pretty much, I mean as a father figure, yeah.” “Where was, where was Mitch?” I asked. “Mitch was always… Okay, with Austin I was a father figure to him, in the sense that I would always be playing games with him. Like we would build forts, uh, we’d take like, couch cushions off and pile them together and build forts out of them and stuff. And we’d just play and like, um. I was more like his big brother really, but with Adam, my dad was always in and out and he was always like cheating on Yvonne and then like, he’d be doing this and that and like. Adam goes, ‘James, when I grow up I want to be just like you.’ And later it kind of hit me that like he was saying- ‘James, I kind of want you to raise me,’ you know?” As another example of James’ struggles with SOP, first James is a father figure to Austin, and then he was more like a big brother. James’ relationship with his brother suddenly shifts without any recognition from James. James also gives us further insight into the instability of his childhood: his father was not consistently present and he was cheating on James’ mother. Relationships in general. We started the second interview talking about James’ relationships. I said, “So I thought we could start with, um, your relationships.”

James replied, “Um, well, [laughs] the only relationship that I – that I’ve honestly had was with a 17 going on 18-year-old when I was 19. It’s legal in the State of Indiana, 16 through 20. Um, it was age of consent, at least it was back then, or in the later nineties. And uh, I got her pregnant, and she had an abortion. And so I decided that I would never date again.” “You’d never date again,” I repeated. “Uh-huh.” “It sounds like you were devastated by that,” I suggested. “Yeah, it wasn’t really fun,” agreed James. “No, I mean it was so bad you decided you’d never want to date again.” “Uh-huh, but my relationships with my brothers, I’d do anything for ‘em. Um, I decided if either one of them died, I’d commit suicide. And if they got ______, I’d do it for sure.” “Pardon?” “Uh, I was saying if either one of my brothers died I’d commit suicide. I own a shotgun, so I know I’d do it for sure.” If we recall James’ earlier comments, “if you die, I die too,” here we have a concrete enactment of that experience of lack of SOP. In other words, James’ sense of self is tenuous and dependent on others such that he feels that if they die, he dies too. Here he is literally saying that he would kill himself if one of his brothers dies. I assumed he was referring to his two biological brothers when I replied, “You would do it for – you would use a shotgun so you could do it for sure if either of them died.” “Yeah, I used – I’ve used a belt like 12 times and just strangled myself.” “Yeah.” “That’s not very painful; you just slowly go to sleep,” explained James. “Okay, yeah.” James continued, “But as far as um, relationships go most of my honest relationships were in the military. Not female, but male where you just bonded together because you’re willing to die for each other, you know.” When I asked about relationships, he started by talking about the painful romantic relationship with a woman. Here he says that his imaginary or delusional military relationships comprised most of his honest relationship. If most of his honest relationships are imaginary, this speaks to the extent of James’ isolation and struggles with SOP. His experience of others is so

transient that delusional relationships compare with any other honest relationships he has. To put it another way, his imagined comrades are as real as anyone else in his life. Furthermore, we have to wonder how intimate or honest James’ relationships with his family members and other real people are if his delusional relationship rank alongside those as equally honest relationships. We continued our discussion of James’ relationships. I asked James, “What happens to you when you feel close to someone, connected to them?” “Um, well, just a few certain people, few certain individuals, I feel like kind of ______. The people I actually get close to, yeah, they’re a godsend.” “You feel are…?” “Godsends.” “Godsends. Uh huh,” I repeated. “Yeah, like angels or whatever. That’s predominantly – and I treasure them, and it’s like wow.” Here James refers to the people he is close as being “like angels,” because he treasures them; they are essentially blessings or “godsends.” Earlier in James’ narrative, I described how James thought that angels literally came down to earth and that he himself is a guardian angel. James’ figurative or psychological use of “angels” here in his description of people he treasures contrasts with his previous literal use. Due to his struggles with SOP, he does not notice the contradiction. Returning to our exploration of his close relationships, I asked James, “Who are those people?” “Um, Adam, my brother, Austin, my brother, Eric Thompson, who was here and got all messed up.” “Who’s Eric Thompson?” “He was, he was a guy that I knew that lived in the same housing complex as me in Glenview, and I’d always go up there and hang around with him. As I got worse, he got worse because they kept on mixing pain medications with psychotropics, which is worse than taking acid or anything. And I haven’t even ever taken acid on purpose, it’s only been slipped to me. They were just seeing if I liked it. It’s like, ‘Hey, mother fuckers you poisoned me for life.’ But as far as people that I’m close to, well, my dad, I get mad at him just because I miss him. Eric,

wherever he is at, I don’t know where he’s at. I miss him. Sean Ryan McDonnell is my grandfather who I’m upset with because I miss him.” James said that as he got worse, Eric got worse too. For James, it is as if there was no real separation between the two of them, another example of SOP difficulties. I continued, “You’re upset with him.” “Because I miss him.” “Okay. “Adam and Austin. And my mom, but she’s more like a guiding spirit. And my grandmother, Kate Donovan.” James mentioned that he is upset with certain people because he misses them, and I wanted to explore that association. I queried, “And so you also said that you’re mad at your dad and your grandpa because you miss them?” “I’m not angry or like seeing red. I’m just like, you know, I wish I could see them more often. And sometimes – and it’s very selfish, and it’s like well, I just miss you, and I’m upset that I can – that I’m in here.” “Yeah.” “So that’s about – that’s really the depth – the depths of my relationships with my family, and a handful of friends.” James indicates that this is “the depth” of his relationships, and yet they seem very distant. I continued, “Mm-hmmm. And um, what happens when you’re mad or you’re mad at one of them, what happens?” “Uh well, as soon as I see him, I’m not mad anymore. And it’s more of like an anxiety attack than actual anger. Sometimes panic attacks can lead to anger, like real high anxiety, you know. I don’t know if you’ve ever been to an airport or something.” For someone with difficulties with SOP, feelings change abruptly as James is suddenly no longer mad when he sees the person. James seems to confuse anger and anxiety around people showing up: panic attacks lead to anger, which is like real high anxiety. I was not following James, so I repeated, “To an airport?”

“To an airport, and you’re like waiting for somebody to pick you up, a friend or you know, whoever, and uh, I mean ‘come on, come on, come on, come on. Where the fuck?’ – and then they show up, and they’re like – and you’re like, ‘You’re alive.’” James laughed. I reflected, “You’re really angry, really angry and then they show up, and you’re-” “You’re just like, ‘Oh hi, sir. I wasn’t sure if you were going to show up or not.’” For James there is real uncertainty around whether someone will actually show up. Even waiting for someone at the airport, he seems surprised when they show up, and his reaction is, “You’re alive.” His struggles with SOP are so severe that the question of whether someone will show up becomes a question of whether someone is dead (i.e., continues to exist). We see more of James’ struggles with SOP and uncertainty about whether others continue to persist when outside of his presence when I asked James what happens when he feels distant from the people he said he is close to: “You said you’re close to your mom and your dad and your brothers, and – what happens when you feel distant from them?” James replied, “I get sad.” “You get sad. Okay, anything else? “I pray.” “Mm-hmmm, what do you pray for?” I asked. “Their safety.” “How come?” James closed his eyes and said,“Um-” I asked, “You just prayed right now?” “Yeah, that’s for my alcoholic friends.” “But when you pray, you feel distant from your family, you feel sad, and you pray for their safety?” I asked. “I’m sorry. It’s- it’s from combat, I’m sorry. I go into these trances where I just think like random things.” “Oh okay,” I replied. “It’s not any mental illness necessarily per say.” “Okay.” “But um, I’m sorry. What’d you say?” Asked James.

I repeated, “When you feel distant from your family-” “Mm-hmmm.” “You said you feel sad and then you pray for their safety, I was wondering how come you pray for their safety?” “Why?” repeated James. “Yeah,” I replied. “So they can live.” James laughed. “Okay.” James continued, “I told you before I was a guardian angel. I’m a guardian angel over death.” “Yeah, you’re a guardian angel over…” “Death,” James repeated. “Okay, so you’re worried they would die.” “Yeah. I mean it’s all in God’s hands anyway, but like, you know, sometimes I was just like, ‘Well, you know, Father, I’d kind of like to see ‘em again.’” When James feels distant from others he feels the need to pray for their safety and actually survival. It seemed that thinking about being distant from others activated James’ SOP difficulties because they brought up his delusion about being a guardian angel over death. We also see SOP struggles when first it seems that James has some responsibility for praying for others’ safety as a guardian angel over death, and then suddenly God is entirely responsible for the outcome. When James says “Father, I’d kind of like to see ‘em again,” we can see how every time James is distant from others, he questions whether he will ever see them again. Alcohol abuse and suicide. In the first interview, James mentioned that he was an alcoholic. When I asked to hear more about that, James replied, “Yeah, um, okay. I’m addicted to whiskey.” “You’re addicted to whiskey.” “I mean like beer and wine just makes me feel stupid. And uh, rum just like – oh where’s my girlfriend [chuckles] and I’m just kidding- sorry. And uh, but whiskey, I love the stuff like the way it makes me feel is just such a strong buzz. And um there’s like, there’s some, it’s not even like it’s in my mind, it’s like it’s in my body. So it’s like once I have one drink I have to have like two, three or four tumblers.”

“So, when did you start drinking?” “When I was 21- well when I was 16. Um, and now I’m 32.” “What was going on when you were 16?” I asked. “Um, I was just bored and I was like, I’ll get fucked up- so drunk.” “So, you were bored,” I repeated. “Yeah, and so I just got drunk and I was like, well I was by myself. I was just like an alcoholic drinking.” “From the get-go?” I asked. “From the get-go. And, [pause] I couldn’t, ever get back that original feeling. [mumbles] That one wasn’t even whiskey, it was vodka. I still remember it was vodka and orange juice and Mountain Dew. I would like to tell you about my first time drinking.” “Sure,” I replied. “How good it felt, and um, how much, [pause] how much, um, how much relief I got from it. And then so I started drinking.” “Relief, relief from what?” I asked. “Just from everything. I just always feel like, really tense. It’s probably, I mean it was probably because I was manic-depressive or whatever. It was, it was just like this feeling like… [long pause] It was just like this feeling that everything was okay.” “That’s what the vodka gave you.” “Yeah.” I repeated, “But you said it just, to get some relief and you said relief from being really tense. What else was, I mean, relief- that sounds like there were things you wanted to get away from.” “Yeah, I just never enjoyed being alive really,” replied James. “It sounds like your drinking was a reaction to your life,” I offered. “Mm-hmmm,” agreed James. “It was pretty awful,” I continued. “Yeah.” “At 16.” “Mm-hmm,” confirmed James.

James, like many persons who struggle with addiction, started using alcohol as a way of obtaining “relief” from painful circumstances. For James, we can understand why, due to the trauma he endured growing up, that he “never enjoyed being alive” and would resort to alcohol as a means of feeling better or “feeling that everything was okay.” James also attempted suicide many times as a way of trying to escape a life he found unbearable. I previously described James’ “survivor’s guilt” indicating that his childhood was so horrific, that he felt he should not have survived. James explained that he tried to kill himself so many times “because I don’t like my life.” Both James’ alcohol abuse and suicidality speak to how awful his childhood was. In our first interview, I asked, “Can you tell me about that first time you tried to commit suicide?” James replied, “Oh, well I wasn’t even trying to commit suicide. A cabbie pulled out in front of me. I was driving drunk. I don’t know if it was a real suicide attempt, because I was thinking about it for a while, or if it was just being reckless.” “You were drunk driving?” “I was drunk driving, yeah. I was charged with leaving the scene of an accident as a result of a- or leaving property damage. I knocked over a fence. Nobody else was involved. I didn’t have a passenger. No other car was hit. So it was just leaving the scene of an accident resulting in property damage.” “Okay, that’s what you were charged with. Did you almost die?” I asked. “No, so that was the closest I came to a suicide attempt. But as far as actually like slitting my wrists or whatever or trying to drink myself to death, I’ve probably done that at least 50 times, since I’ve been on meds.” James goes back and forth on whether this was a suicide attempt or not. During James’ intake interview he most likely described this as a suicide attempt, because according to James’ chart, he first tried to kill himself when he was 19 by wrecking his car. He brought up the incident in response to my question about his first suicide attempt, but then he said he was not trying to commit suicide. With SOP difficulties, James shifts and changes his story without awareness of the contradiction. Nervous breakdowns. In our first interview I asked James, “When was the first time you were hospitalized?”

James sighed and replied, “That was in 2004.” “Ok, for being schizoaffective?” “I had a nervous breakdown, for what?” I replied, “You said they had labeled you as schizoaffective. I’m sorry –go on. So in 2004 you had a breakdown?” “Nervous breakdown,” repeated James. “What happened?” I asked. “I watched this mini series called “Left Behind” [chuckled] and I was like, who the fuck are these people to pretend like they know how god is going to make things happen? You know, like, um, this is fucking ridiculous. Pardon my language.” “Swear all you want, it doesn’t bother me.” James continued, “Okay [chuckles] and I was like – these people were insane and there’s going to be all kinds of people who are going to go to church and worship Kurt Cameron. And I was like, no! [chuckles] and I had a nervous breakdown. I saw it like in my own way.” [mumbles] “What do you mean by a nervous breakdown?” I asked. “I was just like twitching and stuff. And I said to my mom, ‘Like yeah Mom, I’m the devil.’” “You said, ‘Mom, I’m the devil’?” “Yeah. And she’s like, ‘No you’re probably not,’ and I was like- ‘No just watch the movie and they’re going to call me the devil.’ And so [chuckles] and she was like – ‘Well you probably need to go to a hospital then.’ And so I went to Memphis and she labeled me as schizoaffective because I wasn’t really coherent. I was especially not coherent after being given high doses of, shots of either Haldol or Thorazine. And she never actually gave me a chance to calm down and smoke a few cigarettes and I’d been on medicines for a week. To actually get an accurate diagnosis. She had me shot up with so many antipsychotics and then she labels me as schizoaffective. Not even looking at the D criterion, which means [chuckles] not due to alcohol or medications.” James’ mother’s response to his comment that he is the devil is astounding. Rather than emphatically disconfirming this absurd statement, she says, “probably not.” Assuming that she has consistently responded to James in such confusing and unhelpful ways throughout his

childhood, it should not be surprising that he struggles with SOP and distinguishing reality from fantasy. After this first hospitalization, James was in and out of hospitals “for years for misdiagnosis.” I started our first interview by asking James how he ended up in Woodside. James explained, “The way I ended up in combat or the way I ended up here was uh, there was um, a time when I came home from a bar, and I was just sitting there. All of a sudden something hit me- I was like, my friends, not like my friends I grew up with, but my friends in the Marines and in the Seals and in the Delta Force Army, the ones that served with me in the Delta Force Army, that I wasn’t as close to, but still. My friends are dead. Young men who were as young as 18 years old, who were willing to die, to save me, and to save America’s freedom and the freedom of liberty in general, were dead. And here I was just coming back, drunk and, I was just drunk and not really doing a lot with my life that I could see at that time. And so I took- ha [chuckles] a Red Hot Chili Peppers CD – Californication with the song “Scar Tissue” on it. And I snapped it in half and I slit my wrists. And then I was like – ‘Oh yeah, my brothers my brothers my brothers.’” James mumbled. I could not understand what he was saying, so I asked, “I’m sorry- what did you say?” “And then I was like – ‘Oh yeah, my brothers, my blood brothers.’ I was like – ‘Oh my god, I gotta’ live for them.’ They were what I had to keep going for. And so I called 911, and they were like, and so I talked to the dispatch. And the dispatch [mumbles]. And I talked to an officer for a little bit, for a little while, and he told me just to stay calm and not to uh, kill myself again. I’m not a borderline cutter, I was cutting to kill myself. So, some of the scars there.” James points to his inner wrists. “Yeah,” I replied. “Through the veins.” “You really wanted to die,” I offered. “Yeah I really wanted to die. I didn’t feel that I was was, you know, that I was. I didn’t know why I was alive. And not to question God, but I didn’t want to be alive and have them dead. So, after I called 911, I was talking to a 911 paramedic suicide officer, whatever title they have. I’m not quite sure. Um, they sent an ambulance and they sent a fire truck as well. I don’t know why they did that. They sent an ambulance [mumbles] and they also sent a police car, and um and they took me over to the hospital, to see if I need stitches and they determined that the

cut wasn’t wide enough, it wasn’t a big enough gap to need stitches. And so I just um, [pause] I um, went from, the hospital, at Glenview. It was called, I can’t even remember what it was called. St. Paul’s or something. I went from there to Central Village Mental Health inpatient hospital. [mumbles] And I was there for about 10 days or 14, between a week and two weeks. And the whole time they were like, my doctor had come to me and she was like, well. I saw my doctor would come in to talk to me every couple of days. And she was like, and I was like- ‘Look doctor these medicines aren’t working.’ And um, she was like- ‘Well you have schizoaffective.’ “You have schizoaffective?” James continued, “That’s what she said. That’s not what I have, I have bipolar II. But, yeah, um. She kept on saying – ‘Are you suicidal?’ And I said, ‘Yes.’ She goes. I go- ‘Can I go home?’ And she’d be like – ‘No.’ And I’m like – ‘Look just let me out of this hospital, please. I don’t do well in these hospital stays. They really, um, gimme uh, like sensory deprivation [chuckles] disorder.’ And she goes, ‘Well I can’t let you go if you’re suicidal still.’ And I said, ‘Okay, is there a hospital I can go to?’ And I go, ‘What about a hospital in Woodside. Because I heard there’s a clinic there.’ And she goes, ‘Well we could send you to a place in Woodside.’ And she goes – ‘That’s for dual-diagnosis.’ Both substance abuse, because I’m an alcoholic, and um, and um, [pause] and I have, whatever they. I think it’s, I think it’s comorbid posttraumatic stress, but I don’t know.” “Comorbid with posttraumatic stress?” James replied, “Yeah. But like, so anyway I was there and she goes. I go- ‘I cannot be in these hospitals, do you promise me?’ And she goes- ‘I promise it won’t be any longer than one month.’ And so they send me to St. Mary’s. It’s either in this county or I don’t know if you’ve heard of St. Mary’s?” “I haven’t,” I replied. James continued, “Okay well it’s a, it’s a hospital that’s run by nuns. It’s a treatment facility for rehab. And then I was there for like 4 days [chuckles] or something. And they’re like- ‘You’re fine, you’re better now.’ And I was like” [mumbles] “You said, ‘Yeah I am?’” I asked. James replied, “Yeah, I was like, ‘Yeah I’m better. Yeah, I’m feeling a lot just being in this environment and knowing that there are places to go to.’ And they go. And they told the

sheriff- ‘Go ahead and take him back to Central Village.’ So either he just made a mistake or it was a deliberate act, but he brought me here to Woodside. We see James struggle with SOP as he talks about his imaginary military friends who are real to him. He also showed confusion around the separation between himself and these imagined friends, because he did not want to live if they were dead. Summary. James endured a traumatic childhood which included: being physically and sexually abused by his father, witnessing domestic violence, living with an unpredictably violent father, being randomly punished by his mother, and spending significant periods of time isolated in his room. The terror and confusion James experienced interfered with his ability to understand people and form coherent, stable representations of others (i.e., disrupted his development of SOP). We see multiple examples of James’ struggles with SOP. First of all, he is confused about his birth and who his parents are. James talks about being born in Ireland as well as in the United States. He differentiates between his real (i.e., good) parents versus the ones who raised him in because to acknowledge that the real parents he depended on for survival could be so abusive is too overwhelming. James continued to struggle with SOP around his parents when he describes them in contradictory ways (e.g., lunatic people, autistic, a mother like a guiding spirit, a cool father, etc.) with no awareness of these contradictions. As another example of SOP James’ difficulties, he struggled around separation between himself and those he feels close to such that he feels that if they die, he dies too. In many instances throughout the interviews, when James talked about early trauma, or even came close to talking about early trauma, his difficulties with SOP instantly emerged and he started hearing voices or became delusional. Hearing voices is a classic example of struggles with SOP as the voices that are not there appear suddenly and are really present for James. When delusional, James struggled with differentiating between who was real and who was not. He felt close to his imagined military comrades and felt the loss of their deaths to the point of not wanting to live because they had died. Thus, we can see how James’s early trauma is connected to his SOP struggles based on the temporal association (he talks about trauma and SOP emerges). We can also see the connection between James’ early trauma and SOP struggles in the similarities between his traumatic experiences and the manifestations of his SOP difficulties. I started by describing James creating multiple representations of his parents in order to protect himself from having to deal with being dependent on unpredictably violent caregivers. Another

example is when James explained his memories of screaming as the sounds of military combat rather than his brothers’ and his own screams from his father’s abuse. To offer one final example, James created an identity for himself as an investigator of child sexual predators with Operation Stargate in order to explain his memories of sexual abuse. In summary, James experienced a number of overt and subtler traumas starting at an early age. His symptoms (e.g., hearing voices and delusions) can be understood as struggles with SOP. These struggles with SOP are clearly connected to his early traumas both in terms of present discussions of prior traumas coinciding with instantaneous appearances of SOP difficulties and in terms of the similarities between his symptoms and his traumatic memories. Andrew Brief description. Andrew is a 19 year old, gay, African American man. According to his chart, Andrew’s primary diagnosis was schizoaffective disorder and he was also diagnosed with cannabis abuse. At the time of our interview, he had been in Woodside State Hospital for almost 1 year. Andrew had been living in a group home for 10 months before he ended up in Woodside. During that time he was hospitalized four times, and returned to the group home after the first three brief hospitalizations. Andrew indicated that two times he went into the hospital after he started seeing and hearing things from smoking “laced” marijuana. The third time he was hospitalized after running away from the group home and ended up chasing his father with a knife. The fourth time, he was trying to stab himself in the abdomen with a comb. After a few weeks in the hospital, he was transferred to Woodside. Andrew has two older sisters, Tina (21 years old) and Celeste (22 years old). His father also had children with an ex-wife and so Andrew has two half sisters and four half brothers. Andrew grew up in the Midwest with both parents and his two sisters until his mother passed away from lung cancer when Andrew was 12. One year after his wife passed away, Andrew’s father started dating one of her friends, Diane. Andrew’s father took care of the children until Andrew turned 18, at which point he remarried and told the children that they were on their own. Andrew and his sisters lived in their home until they were forced to leave due to altercations his sisters were having with the neighbors. Celeste went to live with her boyfriend and ended up having a baby. Andrew and Tina went to live with their cousins at an aunt’s house. The aunt was living down the street. Andrew, Tina, and their cousins were throwing parties with drugs and alcohol and so after 5 months their aunt told them they had to leave. Andrew and Tina were split

up between two different aunts. Andrew was told he could live with this aunt for 6 months. After that, he briefly stayed in a homeless shelter and then ended up in the group home. Andrew reported that, when he was 10, his teenage cousin slept over in his bed and they touched each other. He felt uncomfortable and went to his mom. She stayed in the room until both boys fell asleep. Andrew reported that when he was 10 or 11, a teenage boy raped him in the bathroom of a Boys and Girls’ club. Andrew indicated that a cousin may have molested him when he was even younger. After his mother’s death, Andrew started smoking marijuana. In eighth grade Andrew had to go to alternative school because he got in trouble for smoking marijuana in the bathroom, bringing marijuana to school, coming to school high, being late, and being in detention. From ages 15-18 he attended an Assertive Community Treatment (ACT) day program as an alternative to school. Andrew reported “losing his mind” for the first time when he was 6 or 7. He indicated that he was not the same person after his mother’s death. Andrew was hospitalized several times between the ages of 12 and 16. When he was 13, Andrew “tore up” his sister’s room because his “mind was gone” and because he felt invisible to his family and that nobody cared about him. He tried to pull a TV down on his head because he wanted to die. He was sent to the hospital for 3 weeks. He reported that at age 14 (age 16 according to his chart) he made suicidal gestures with a knife because he was still devastated over loss of mother and felt that he had no one to talk to and no one was attending to him. At age 15 he stole a car and tried to run away. Andrew grew up fearing that his family would find out that he was gay. Andrew’s sisters made fun of him and called him “gay” and “faggot.” Andrew’s mother would tell them to stop, saying that he was not gay. Andrew suspected that his mother knew he was gay, but she never said anything directly. Andrew reported that he started having sex with men when he was 16-17 years old. Andrew came out to his family when he was in the hospital at age 19. His family is not supportive of Andrew being gay, but they have maintained relationships with him. Andrew’s mother was and father continues to be a “saved” Christian; religion is important to Andrew and his family. Andrew is tall and of average weight. For two of our interviews he wore eye makeup and had false nails. I met with Andrew four times over the course of a month. We met four times instead of three because we split up the third interview between two different days. (I provide the

transcripts of our interviews in Appendix G.) Andrew was cooperative and enthusiastic about meeting with me. He asked to end one interview abruptly after we talked about when he was raped. Andrew tended to speak slowly and with a slight drawl. He occasionally became tearful, particularly when talking about his mother. Andrew has a warm smile. He laughed at inappropriate (i.e., serious) moments, most likely due to nervousness or feeling uncomfortable. Andrew was engaged in his treatment program and attended most of his classes. He was living in one of the small transitional cottages that patients often moved into in order to prepare for discharge to group homes and independent living. Andrew had full privileges and I regularly saw him walking across the hospital grounds or hanging out with other patients around the treatment mall. Andrew was social and often could be seen talking with the friends he had made at the hospital. Narrative. The narrative I constructed for Andrew starts with his mother’s death when he was 12 and builds around this defining event in Andrew’s life. Andrew talked about her death in every interview. We revisited several other events and topics across interviews and so I drew from all four interviews, consolidating and weaving together parts of our conversations based on the particular topic. After Andrew’s mother’s death, I move on to Andrew feeling alone during his teenage years. I discuss Andrew hiding his sexual orientation while growing up, his current confusion around his sexual orientation, and his experiences with coming out. Then I cover Andrew’s current relationships with his family. I go back to the first time he felt that his mind was gone and review other early traumas. I conclude with how Andrew ended up in Woodside. Mother’s death. In our first interview, Andrew started talking about his mother’s death in detail when he was talking about his sexual orientation and how he relates to women. Andrew explained, “But when I look at women, it’s like I look at women like as a mother. I look at them like, the relationship I had with my mother was like a friendship. You know, my mother passed away when I was 12.” “How did she die?” “She died from second-hand smoke cancer.” “I’m so sorry,” I replied.

“Yeah. It’s sad, because I miss her. And she was like an inspirational love and peace for me. You know what I’m saying? Just watching her in the hospital, seeing her go through, seeing the tubes down her throat, and, you know, all that stuff hurting me. You know what I’m saying? Because I didn’t want her to go through that stuff and still to this day I don’t know why she went through it. You know, but. Before she passed away she sat on the couch at our house and she was like, ‘Andrew, um, God told me that you was going to go through a lot in the world.’ You know what I’m saying? And I believe that one of the big things that I thought about was, her passing away, that’s something I went through that was kind of awful. You know, losing her, and, it was hard.” Not only was losing his mother hard, but seeing her suffering and wasting away in the hospital also hurt Andrew. Andrew says that he did not know why “she went through it.” Earlier in the interview when talking about his father and family not understanding Andrew being gay, Andrew said, “I believe that my momma passed away for a reason so that I can take on and live my life and find new techniques you know and be kind of weird person.” I wondered what he meant by weird, so I suggested, “Be different?” Andrew agreed, “Be different, that’s what I want to say.” Here we have Andrew suggesting that his mother’s death happened for a reason: so that he can live his life and be different (i.e., gay). Within a few minutes, Andrew’s understanding of his mother’s death shifts back and forth between meaningless and incomprehensible versus happening for a reason. Such contradictory changes with no awareness from Andrew indicate struggles with SOP. We will see many more examples of his alternating as we continue. Furthermore, the connection between Andrew’s memories of this event and emergence of SOP difficulties in the moment speaks to the traumatic effect Andrew’s mother’s illness, suffering, and death had on him. In the fourth interview, Andrew described the events leading up to his mother’s death and her passing: “One time my dad told me that my mama was coming home, and um, she actually did come home that night, from the hospital- brought her home. They pulled her through the door, she was in the hospital bed … So, my dad told my auntie that um, that my mom had came home, so they came over and stuff. And they sitting in the room crying cause my mom had came home. And they was- my mom was still in pain. She was kind of talking out of it, like she wasn’t really

herself. And she was like, she was like, ‘I really don’t want y’all to see me like this.’ And I was like, ‘Mom, I love you’ and um, she was like, ‘I love you too, son. And I don’t want you to see me like this.’…And, my mom was crying. I just didn’t want to see my mom like that.” Andrew said that he knew his mother “wasn’t really herself.” For a young child, it was like she became a different person when sick. Trying to make sense out of these changes in his mother as well as her disappearance when she actually died was more than Andrew could understand. Andrew continued, “So, it was about time for us to go to sleep… so I get ready to go lay down and, I just hear my mama moaning and stuff. She’s in pain. And I’m crying in my sleep. I’m crying, I couldn’t go to sleep, so I’m crying and crying. I wanted to go in there and just talk to her, you know, pray for her and stuff, but I was scared. I didn’t know what to do. So, she ended up going back to the hospital that night. She told my dad that she wanted to go back to the hospital. So when I heard that I got up and I walked in there, I said, ‘Mom are you ok?’ She was like, ‘Yes Andrew. I don’t want you to’ She was like, ‘Get out of here. I don’t want you to see me like this.’ So that’s when the um, the ambulance arrived. And they took her back to the hospital. And it’s like, December 29th, that’s when I woke up and I went into my dad’s room. And I laid in his bed cause he wasn’t there. So I’m wondering where he is. So next thing you know, someone, my sister calls and she said um, ‘I want y’all to be strong for Daddy.’ I’m like, what’re you talking about? I didn’t say to her, like what’re you talking about, I’m like- what’s going on? And she didn’t tell us that my mom passed away till we got to the hospital. And I’m walking through the door, going into the emergency room and I was like, ‘Dad, did my mom pass away?’ He was like, ‘Yeah.’ And I went in there, I’m like- ‘That’s not my mom. Like, where is she?’ You know what I’m saying, like, ‘Where did she go? That’s not her.’ And I didn’t cry, but my two sisters was crying. And my brother- my other brothers on my dad’s side was there- they was crying and my auntie was crying real loud. I wasn’t crying at all. And then everybody, they, my auntie was saying that it’s not her too. And that’s when they everybody left out of there I was in there with my one auntie. My one auntie was in there and I was in there with her and she was talking to me. And she was saying just talking to me, I forget what she was talking to me about and I was trying to make myself cry but I wouldn’t cry. I just didn’t know what to do.”

For Andrew, dealing with his mother’s suffering and death was confusing and traumatic, and he went through it alone. He cried by himself as he heard his mother moaning. He was overwhelmed and conflicted between his fear and wanting to go to his mother; he did not know what to do and there was no one there to guide him. His mother went back to the hospital and he woke up alone; he could not find his father. Then when he sees his mother’s body, he is confused and does not believe it is her. His aunt reiterating that it was not his mother probably added to his bewilderment and sense that the person who died was not his mother as well as the expectation that his mother had gone away but would come back. In the fourth interview we talked more about Andrew’s uncertainty around his mother’s identity and presence. Andrew explained, “When she passed away, um, December 29th, the day that she actually passed away, um, I went up to the hospital to see her. And she was lying in the bed and um, I looked at her. I knew that wasn’t her. You know cause her body had blown up. It was real big. Her head was real big. I just knew it wasn’t her. So I didn’t cry right away, it’s like- it’s like I was trying to make myself cry cause I couldn’t cry. And, I just was wondering where did – where did she go? You know, I didn’t, I thought she was just, I thought she just disappeared- went somewhere. You know I didn’t know she went to heaven right away. I just thought she, might’ve just went to another state, and like moved away. Went like- went on a vacation or something and never came back for a long time. And I thought she was coming back. But she never showed up.” “So you kept hoping she’d come back?” “Yeah.” “Ok. Did anyone explain to you that she was gone and wasn’t coming back?” I asked. Andrew shook his head no in response. I asked, “When did you figure out that she wasn’t coming back?” “When I got a little older.” “Ok. Yeah. That must’ve been really hard waiting and hoping she’d come back.” “Yeah, that’s why I believe it tore me up on the inside real bad, and having to lose my mind and kinda’ went crazy for a little while and got real bad- hooked on drugs and you know just, really out there bad.” “But it was really the not knowing if your mom was coming back that really drove you”

“Crazy,” Andrew finished. “Crazy. What was that like?” I asked. “I really can’t explain it. It was- it was a terrible feeling though because I always thought she would just, reappear. (cause) I had dreams that she was coming back, and, dreams that she would- I had dreams that she just walked through the door and woke up and she wasn’t there. I used to have those all the time, and I was just, I was just devastated. Cause I really thought she was coming back. But it never happened.” Here we can see how literal Andrew’s struggles with SOP were. He thought his mother disappeared and would actually reappear. I responded, “Oh ok. So you kept thinking your mom was going to come home.” “Yeah. And then one day I talked to her on the phone and it was sad hearing her talk ‘cause she wasn’t in her right mind, I just knew it. Cause she wasn’t talking like herself. Like she was out of it- you know. I was so sad. You know I could just cry right now, but I don’t want to cause I’m gonna mess up my makeup. [laughs] But, mmm.” “Yeah. It was really hard losing her.” “It was,” agreed Andrew. Andrew describes having a conversation with his mother where she was not talking like herself. It was difficult for Andrew to make sense out of how he could be talking to his mother but she was not herself; she was like a different person. Such confusing experiences most likely contributed to Andrew’s struggles with SOP. Finally, we see how Andrew’s grief for his mother is still so raw even 7 years later that tears are never far beneath the surface. We get a better sense of the traumatic impact of his mother’s death when, in the first interview, Andrew explained, “I had a stroke because of too much stress. Because of me losing my mother and didn’t understand why, at a young age. You know, why my mother had to leave…But just, just knowing that she was going through all of this. It was hurtful because I really loved her with all my heart. And when she left it was like I lost control of myself. It was like I didn’t even know who I was no more.” When Andrew’s mother died, he no longer knew who he was. Who he was has disappeared. Andrew’s experience of losing himself is consistent with struggles with SOP. The self disappears. There is also an interesting connection between the time of year when Andrew watched his mother pass away and later SOP difficulties.

Andrew explained, “It’s like every November and December I get sick. I don’t know why. It’s like, I don’t know, I think it’s because of the pain that I’ve been through in my life. And I think it’s like a circle of reality that rewinds itself back in time to cause me to remember so much about those months.” “What happened in those months?” “My mom dies December 29th. Right after Christmas. My dad told us that my mom was going to be with us for Thanksgiving and Christmas. And she was. She made it through. She made it through November and December to be with us. And, I think those are one of the reasons every time November and December come around, I’m either in the hospital, or I get sick.” Andrew identified a connection between the trauma of what he witnessed around his mother’s death in November and December and his psychological difficulties. The coincidence is not a matter of chance. Anniversaries of deaths are difficult for many people. For Andrew, the death was so traumatic that it probably disrupted his development of SOP. As we will see, remembering the trauma triggers difficulties with SOP. I wanted to be clearer about what getting sick looked like for Andrew so I continued, “When you say, get sick, what happens to you when you get sick?” “I go to the hospital.” “Do you hear voices, or?” “It’s like my mind leaves.” “Your mind leaves, yeah. That’s what happens when you get sick,” I repeated. “Yeah.” “That’s so scary for you.” “Yeah, it is. So I’m trying to just, really, and I believe it, it becomes a factor for me. Because, I don’t understand why it happens, I don’t. It’s a lot of weird things go on in my life. And one of the things are when my mind leaves. I don’t understand why that happens. And it’s scary. I just don’t want it to happen again, because I don’t want to get caught in that moment again.” “Caught in that moment? Where it’s gone?” I asked. “Yeah. It’s scary. It is.” “I’m sure it is. Yeah. You’re not sure if it’ll come back.” “Right.”

Andrew is referring to difficulties with SOP when he says he gets sick. For him, getting sick means that he experiences his mind leaving, or a loss of self. We will delve more into his experiences of his mind leaving later, but clearly his mother’s death was so disorganizing to his sense of self that he disappears. In the second interview, Andrew identified his mother’s death as the central cause of his struggles. “And, the only reason I’m on medication is because, when my mom passed away it was hard for me to function. So I needed medication to function. Because it it, just, it was so dramatic. It was a dramatic episode. I thought my mother was still living but she was dead. It hurted. It did. I really tore me up on the inside. And I was never the same after that.” He continued, “But she passed away- I just lost it. I couldn’t think straight. I couldn’t act right. It’s like my mind wasn’t functioning right. It’s like a piece of my heart left and, it’s like I didn’t know who I was no more. It’s like everything went wrong.” Here I wonder if Andrew meant to say traumatic instead of dramatic. Either way, his mother’s death affected Andrew so profoundly that he was “never the same after that.” After her death he no longer knows who he is. Feeling changed, like a different person and losing one’s mind, as Andrew described, are all indications that he struggled with permanence. We can tell that Andrew remains somewhat unresolved around the loss of his mother by the way that he talks about her. For example, in the first interview Andrew said, “Now that I’ve been here in this place [Woodside]. It’s like I kinda’ woke up. You know? Like, time to take things seriously. You know, and stop fooling around and you know thinking everything is a joke and you know it’s time for me to just live my life, you know, the best way I can so that when it’s time for me to leave this place, I will be ready to go be with my mother.” Andrew says he wants to be ready to go “be with” his mother when he is discharged from Woodside. Andrew could be indicating that he plans to kill himself so that he can “be with” his mother. However Andrew was aware that he would not be discharged if he was suicidal. Thus, I interpret Andrew referring to his mother as if she is still alive and he can join her as ongoing confusion that speaks to how disorganizing the loss was for Andrew. In attachment terms, Andrew is unresolved with respect to losing his mother because he continues to refer to her as if she is still alive even though he knows she is dead.

Andrew continued, “And I want to tell you one thing. When I was staying out there in that group home. I was standing outside of the door at the group home and I was talking to one of the staffs and both of us was smoking a cigarette and um, she left and she went back…And we was talking about her mother. And, how her mother passed away. And I was talking about my mother, how she passed away and I miss her and stuff. She went back in… But before this happened I was praying, I was seeking God, and I was just praying to God, I was crying out to God asking him, ‘Why did you have to take my mother?’ Because I was so sad about it. I was sad because my mother was gone. And I was just crying. I was doing, I wasn’t eating nothing. It’s like I was just fasting and praying and praying. You know just seeking God. You know and it and then, God, seeking God so much it’s like God showed me a picture of my mother inside the moon. I’m not lying. He showed me mother’s face. I don’t know why, but her eyes was blood- shot red. She was just looking me. She was looking at me, she was smiling. And you know I was just, I couldn’t, my eyes couldn’t shut at all. It was like I was just, daydreaming on the moon. It was nighttime and I was just looking at the moon, I was just lookin’ at her. I was just crying and crying and crying. And so after that, it just, the moon was going back and forth like this. [moves hand back and forth in front of his face]. You ever seen the moon goin’ back and forth like this?” Here we have a more extreme example of how Andrew struggles with SOP around his mother’s disappearance. His dead mother literally appeared to Andrew in the moon. We also see Andrew questioning God again about why God took his mother. Andrew shifts between understanding his mother’s death happened for a reason and questioning why she had to die. Self-other permanence issues around reason for mother’s death. In the third interview Andrew was talking about his mother’s death and said, “You know, I didn’t understand why, but God took her when I was twelve. And I believe that God did that because he knew that I was going to have to live was going to have to be different from everybody else’s in the family.” First Andrew does not understand why God took his mother when he was 12, then he does. Then, in the fourth interview Andrew suggests that his mother’s death is related to his sexual orientation. He explained, “But I- I believe there was a reason she passed away. I really do. Because I believe if she was still living, I probably wouldn’t even be like this. I don’t know.” “How- oh, go ahead.”

“I was saying, I don’t believe I’d be like this because I believe that my life would be totally different. But like, when she passed- I don’t know, but, when she was living, I always- it’s like I always knew that I was gay, when she was living, and I guess God didn’t want her to go on living, and knowing that her son was gay probably would’ve made a big issue in the family. For her knowing it, and, probably would’ve made her upset, or, you know or, did something to her, so God went on and took her because- I don’t know.” I was not sure what he was implying, so I asked, “It sounds like you’re saying, her dying is somehow connected to you being gay?” “Yeah.” Here Andrew suggests that God took his mother so that she would not have to be upset by knowing that he was gay, which would make “a big issue in the family.” The shifting back and forth between contradictory positions in the moment and across interviews without any awareness indicates difficulties with SOP. We also see the connection between the trauma of Andrew’s mother’s death and his difficulties with SOP. Talking about her death elicits SOP difficulties in the present. On another level, we get a sense of how much terror Andrew associated with his mother finding out that he was gay. She would be so upset and it would be such a big issue that God thought it would be better for her to die than face it. Alone and no one notices. Andrew described a specific incident where he lost his mind when he was 13. He said, “One time I flipped out and tore up my sister’s room. I got to, like you see everything put together here? I actually threw up everything. Everything was on the floor. I tore it up because, I was just upset. It was like, I just, I was upset that my momma was gone and wasn’t nobody listening to me, and it was like, nobody cared. And, it was like, everybody was just pushing me to the side, like I wasn’t even noticeable. Like, this, walk right past me, I’m just like a ghost or something. You know, and I just got so upset that I went in there and I tried to lay down in between my two sisters. They was like, ‘Andrew, what is you doing?’ I was like, ‘I’m scared.’ They was like, they was like, ‘Daddy! Andrew is lying in between us.’ And he came in there and you know I just got to going crazy and, [sighs] I got to just throwing everything on the floor. Just, just everything, just made it real messy. I was just screaming and they had to hold me down and couldn’t hold me down. I was trying to get the TV to fall on my head so I could just die. I was just- I wasn’t myself. I- I felt like a, I was saying I felt like a new generation came

down from heaven and the generation that was here on earth went up to heaven and, all these white people there was like white and black people, like white- like the old times when they just had white and black movies.” We get a sense of how alone and unsupported Andrew felt after his mother’s death. Nobody would listen. Nobody cared. He felt like he “wasn’t noticeable,” “like a ghost.” In feeling practically invisible, it is as if Andrew has disappeared. Also, notice that feeling invisible, “not even noticeable,” and “like nobody cared,” immediately precedes Andrew “[flipping] out,” getting upset, and becoming psychotic. We see the connection between the trauma of feeling insignificant and the emergence of SOP difficulties (i.e., visual hallucinations and suddenly not being himself). I repeated, “Black and white movies, ok.” “That’s what it was. It was like, the old black and white movies was walking the earth. They was walking the earth.” “You were seeing the world in black and white, or there were people from?” “There were people that wasn’t really there, but I seen ‘em.” Andrew is seeing people that are not there. His struggles with SOP are more severe as people who are not there are just appearing to him. “Ok, you were seeing people walking. Uh huh,” I continued. “Like on the earth.” “Walking around?” “Yeah!” “What were they doing?” “Just walking. Like a big old group of people. Just walking.” “And how did you feel?” I asked. “I was scared. I was in the house, but I was scared. I- I- and I tried, and then I’m sitting there, I’m watching TV, and it’s like, the TV was my momma. Like my momma was giving quote- quotations and quotation marks and writing things on the screen. Saying if you- if you- something something, ‘Call this number and we can help you.’ And so I wrote the number down and I called them. I’m like, ‘I need help because I’m seeing this,’ I was telling them that I was seeing things. And then my dad was like, ‘If you call them people, they’ll come get you. They’ll come pick you up for real.’ [sighs] And I called the number.”

The TV suddenly is Andrew’s dead mother and she is communicating with him through the screen. Again, without a sense of SOP, people (living or dead) can come or go randomly. I asked, “And who did you talk to?” “Some lady was on the phone. And I thought it was my- my old school that I went to. The alternative school. I thought it was- see all this is crazy.” “Sounds like it was all confusing.” “Yeah it was all confusing.” “How old were you when that happened?” “I was 13.” “And why did you do that?” “Because I was upset with everything. I was scared. A part of my mind was gone. I never had a, you never had a part of your mind been gone, have you?” “No,” I answered. “It’s a scary feeling. You’ll never want it to happen to you. That’s a scary feeling, losing part of your mind. It’s like half of your mind is not there and you someone else.” “You felt like you were someone else?” I asked. “Yeah, that I didn’t know who it was.” “Felt like you were a stranger?” “Stranger to myself. Like and it was scary because, it’s like, I wasn’t there anymore. It’s like Andrew left, but I didn’t know where he went. And I was somebody else that say, like somebody else, like another name, like another life that I was living that I didn’t know where I went.” “Would that happen a lot? That shift between you and losing your mind and becoming someone else?” I asked. “That happened a lot in my life.” Andrew again recounts a literal experience of struggling with self-permanence. Andrew disappears (“I wasn’t there anymore”) and becomes someone else (“I was somebody else”) and then later reappears. Andrew described his father as depressed after Andrew’s mother’s death. In the fourth interview, I asked about what that was like for Andrew to be around his father.

Andrew answered, “Um, just, being around him. Made things different cause, it was like I was- I was trying to be close to him but it’s like he wouldn’t open up and let me, just be closer to him. It’s like we wasn’t real close. It was like sometimes he would say stuff and it would just make me mad.” Andrew describes being emotionally isolated from his only remaining parent. In effect, he lost both parents when his mother died. Feeling like he no longer has anyone he can turn to for comfort and support would have added to the traumatic nature of the loss. I wanted to know what Andrew’s father said that made him mad, so I asked, “Like what?” “Like he – one time he said, “You just make me want to give up on you.” He said that one time, and it just turned me away from him.” “How did you feel when he said that?” “Upset.” “What was going on when he said that?” I asked. “Oh I had just got locked up.” “Locked up for what?” “I had um, stole- stole a car.” “How come?” “Because I was just, I was just- just so much going through my head and just- I wanted to just drive away. Just get out of town. And um, really didn’t know- have no where to go. I didn’t know my streets. I didn’t know how to get around. I didn’t know where to go. I didn’t want to get lost and get stuck somewhere. So the police got to chasing me and, next thing you know I jump out the truck - get to running. It was like, ‘We’re gonna tase you, you need to get down on the ground.’ So I got down on the ground and they handcuffed me and they took me to the police car and put me in there and took me down to the um, to the juvenile delinquent center. And next thing you know they call my father and let him – and let me talk to him and let him know that I was in jail. He was just so surprised. You know, I’d been missing the whole day. And, it was unexpected, so he was like, ‘Son you just make me want to give up on you.’ Then he hung up.” “Then he hung up?” “Yeah.”

“How old were you when that happened?” “I was 15.” “You said you just wanted to get away. What did you want to get away from so badly?” “All my problems.” “What problems did you have?” “Just, just being alone. Wishing my mom was here with me and, wishing was that I was just with her and, just really wanted to be alone. Just, be by myself. Just, I was listening to the radio while I was driving and stopped by the gas station and bought me some cigarettes. Just smoking and driving, and just really wanted to be by myself. Cause I was wishing I was in a car, so I wanted to steal a car so I could get away. And that’s what I did and I got locked up. I knew it was stupid though, but sometimes you have to suffer with your consequences.” We get a sense of how terribly alone Andrew felt after his mother’s death. He felt so disconnected from his family that when he was with them he felt alone. Andrew also contradicts himself without any awareness (another example of SOP): the problem he wants to escape from is being alone and his solution is to steal a car so he can get away so that he can be by himself. Finally, Andrew’s father saying, “You just make me want to give up on you,” could be terrifying for Andrew as his father is saying that Andrew could lose his support. Growing up in hiding. At one point when we were discussing Andrew’s mother’s death in the first interview, Andrew said, “It hurts, just thinking about it. It’s like the only person, she was like the only person that loved me, and I knew that loved me. You know and I just don’t how it would’ve been if she was still living. I don’t know if she would’ve accepted me for who I am.” Every child deserves to have at least one person who loves him or her unconditionally. Instead, Andrew grew up with ongoing uncertainty about the dependability of his mother’s love. He was terrified that her love would just disappear if she found out that he is gay. Feeling that love could just disappear and he would lose his mother or that his entire relationship with his mother could change based on her discovering that he was gay interfered with Andrew’s development of SOP. It seems possible that her actual death could have felt like a confirmation of these fears, as Andrew did express concerns that God had her die so that she would not find out that he was gay. Andrew is likely to experience severe guilt for the responsibility of his

mother’s death when Andrew shifts to this position of believing that his mother died in order to avoid having to know that he was gay, Later in the first interview, I returned to Andrew’s family calling him names. I said, “Okay. And you said, in your family they called you…” “‘Weird,’ ‘gay,’ ‘faggot.’ ‘You don’t wanna be around him.’ They’d leave me out of some of the things they’d do, like activities.” Andrew sighed. “How did you make sense out of that as a little kid?” “I just saw it as them being mean.” Andrew grew up with his sisters calling him gay and using gay slurs. He was also left out of activities. Being rejected by your own family can be traumatic, as you are pushed out of the group that is supposed to protect you and love you for who you are. I started out the fourth interview by exploring these experiences within Andrew’s family more deeply. “So, um, I guess I was going to start by asking you about, you said your sisters called you names when you were little?” “Yeah.” “And how did your parents react when they called you names?” “It’s like my my mom would be like, cause I used to call my sister fat, cause she used to call me gay [and a fag], and um, my mom would be like, ‘Quit calling him gay- he’s not gay. Stop that’ um, ‘He’s not a fag. Don’t say that about him.’ And my dad would be like, ‘Stop calling her fat, she’s not fat.’ But she really was. And he just didn’t want me to call her names either. Cause she’ll call me gay and I’ll her fat, but she’d called me gay first. And I’d call her fat. But, she still didn’t have the right to talk to me like that, ‘cause, I’m her brother. And then it was like, I was always treated wrong by her. It’s like, I don’t know, it was – it was terrible the way I was treated growing up.” It is clear that “gay” is a derogatory term in Andrew’s family because his parents do not tolerate his sister calling him gay and his mother quickly insists that Andrew is not gay. Andrew grew up knowing that he was gay and that being gay was not acceptable. Even his mother, the one person who Andrew felt loved and supported by, denies who he is. Andrew implies how traumatic his childhood was when he says, “It was terrible the way I was treated growing up.” I also want to point out that this trauma started before Andrew’s mother died because Andrew

tended to present his childhood as being great other than his mother dying. We can see that Andrew’s childhood was not perfect and he experienced trauma prior to his mother’s death. I asked, “Can you tell me more about that?” “It was like, I didn’t understand why, why my sister rejected me. It’s like they didn’t want to be around me and, they always said, ‘You weird. Why you so weird?’ And, ‘Why do you act like that? Why do you swish when you walk? Why you a fag?’ And, you know, stuff like that. And it always hurted me. Actually it pushed me away from them. It made me uncomfortable, like I wasn’t actually wanted. Like, you know what I’m saying, trying to say- like wanted, like acceptable to them.” “You weren’t acceptable to them?” I repeated. “Yeah.” Andrew describes how painful and confusing it was to be rejected and pushed away from his family. We get a clearer sense of the trauma of not being “actually wanted” and feeling that he was unacceptable. I continued, “Ok. And how did your parents respond to them doing that to you and saying that to you?” “Well, um, I don’t think. I’m trying to see what’s____. Actually my mom passed away when I was 12. So, it, it was happening when she was living. But she passed away when I was 12. And then it was still going on. And um, it’s just like, it wasn’t really mentioned to my parents about what was happening.” “You didn’t tell them?” “I didn’t tell them.” “How come?” “Cause, I – I don’t know, I just was afraid.” “What were you afraid of?” “Of what they would think about it. Like what would they’re comments be. Like, ‘Are you really gay, Andrew?’ You know what I’m saying? I was scared. Cause I didn’t know what to say. “ “You were scared they might think you were-“ “Gay.” “Gay. Ok,” I repeated.

Andrew was afraid to go to his parents because they might ask him if he was gay. Not only were his parents not a safe refuge, they were potentially dangerous. If he sought comfort with them from his sisters, they too might reject who he is. Andrew continued, “I didn’t want them to know at the time. So I really, I came out and told my family that I was gay when I turned 19. I knew it was going to happen anyway. I just knew when I turned 19 I was going to tell everybody. I just didn’t want to tell them at the moment cause I was uncomfortable with it.” “Yeah. So, you said you were worried about them finding out.” “My parents?” “Yeah.” “Yeah I was worried about them finding out because- like I said, I was scared cause um, I didn’t know- I didn’t know how they would react to it. You know if I told them, that I was gay. I didn’t know how they will react to it. What they would say? How they will feel about it? And what they will do, or? You know, I didn’t know.” “How were you- what were you worried they might do if they found out?” “I don’t know, like punish me or something.” “Punish you. How did they feel about people being gay in general?” “Well, I don’t know how my mom really felt about it. I know um, I know she’s a real spiritual person. She was a real spiritual person. She was a Christian, and she believed in what the Bible says. And my dad did also. So I think that she wasn’t real accepting of it. I don’t know how she felt about it to be honest. I never asked her.” “But you were worried she wasn’t accepting of it.” “Right.” Later on in the fourth interview, I asked, “Ok. Um, do you remember any specific times when you were worried they would find out or you worried that they thought you were gay when you were little?” “Well, I kinda’ figured my mom knew before she passed away because one day she was sitting in the living room and, she told me she had a dream. And, like I said, she’s real spiritual. And she’s real into God, and she had a real good relationship with God… She was living the rules and regulations of the Bible. She was a just real outgoing, saved person. Everybody knew she was saved. So, it was- I knew it was unexpected for her to just have a dream about me and

then want to tell me because, she knew that it might hurt me or might cause me to wonder like- my mom know about me now. So she was like um, she was like um, she was like- ‘I had a dream.’ She was like, I was like- ‘What was it?’ She was like- ‘I’m not going to tell you.’ She was like- ‘I’m not going to tell you.’ And one other time I came in the living room, she was sitting down and she was like, ‘God told me you was going to go through a lot, in this world.’ She would say that God told her that when I was little. She never told me that before till that day. Before she passed away she told me that.” “Okay. So you think that maybe she knew?” Andrew nodded yes in response. “And, how come she never said anything to you, do you think?” I asked. “I don’t know, she never said anything to me about it. She never said anything about it to me. And that was weird because I felt like she should’ve let me know like she knew something. You know what I’m saying? Like she knew something that, you know, like she knew that I was gay all along. She knew her son was going to be gay. But, she, she always said that I was going to marry a big fat woman. [laughs] Cause I um, cause it – this girl stayed down the street from me and she was a heavy-set girl. And, they used to say I had a crush on her and stuff and, I was like- ‘No, that’s not true,’ and [laughs] and she used to always say I was going to marry a big fat woman and, I was like- ‘I don’t think so,’ and, but anyway. Um, I don’t know, she never told me.” “So you never knew how she really would’ve reacted.” “Right. I think she didn’t let her reaction- her feelings show. How she felt on the inside- she didn’t let it- she didn’t let it come out. She just held it in. And didn’t tell me anything.” Andrew suspected that his mother knew, but she never told him directly. He feels he deserved to know, that she should have told him that she knew. Instead, she said he was going to marry a woman. We get a sense of the isolation he had from his mother who did not share herself with him. Andrew was distant from even the closer, more loving and nurturing of his two parents. We also see another example of SOP difficulties here. Recall how earlier Andrew suggested that his mother did not know he was gay and that God had her die in order to have her avoid ever learning that he was gay. Here Andrew clearly indicated that he suspected his mother knew all along. The switch between his mother not knowing and then knowing without any awareness of the contradiction indicates struggles with SOP. The early trauma is connected to

his difficulties with SOP because talking about the terror he experienced around whether or not his mother knew about his sexual orientation (and whether she would reject him) elicits SOP difficulties in the present. I continued, “Um, but you, oh, how come you didn’t want her to know, when you were little?” “Cause I was scared how she would react. I was scared that, that our relationship wouldn’t be the same. I was scared that, maybe she would look at me differently. Maybe she wouldn’t accept me as her son or maybe she’d be mad at me all the time. Wouldn’t even be able to look me in my face, or, say ‘I love you,’ or it was just so many thoughts.” “How did you feel when you thought about that?” “I felt terrible. That’s why I didn’t want her to know. I didn’t want nobody to know at the time.” Andrew was terrified that his relationship with his mother “wouldn’t be the same,” that her finding out that he was gay would suddenly change things. Essentially, he would lose his mother’s love as “she wouldn’t accept me as her son” and “wouldn’t even be able to…say ‘I love you.’” It seems unlikely that Andrew would harbor those fears if there were no basis for them. We can understand why Andrew “felt terrible” when he thought about these possibilities. We can also understand why the terror of suddenly losing his mother figuratively at any moment, combined with the trauma when he actually lost his mother, disrupted Andrew’s development of SOP. Self-other permanence and sexual orientation. Andrew has SOP related shifts around his understanding of his sexual orientation. Toward the end of the first interview, I asked Andrew how he got along with other boys growing up. Andrew replied, “I couldn’t get along with boys, it’s like, I wouldn’t fit in with them. I would see boys as like being a boyfriend. Like, not like a boyfriend like a friend but like a boyfriend. You know what I’m saying?” “Romantically.” “Yeah, that’s all I saw as boys being to me. And I see females as being like girlfriends, like you know – ‘hey girl, we gonna go out tonight, we’ll have a good time. We gonna see all the sexy men.’ You know what I’m saying?” Andrew laughed. “Yeah,” I replied.

“That’s how it is for me. I don’t know why it’s like this, it’s just who I am. I can’t change it. Can’t nobody change it. God could change it if he wanted to.” First Andrew says nobody can change his sexual orientation. Then suddenly God can change it. The abrupt switch with no awareness indicates difficulties with SOP. We see another example in the second interview. Andrew said, “Cause I don’t know, just for me to be gay when I was little. I believe that something had to happen. Know what I’m saying?” “Feels like something made you gay when you were little? Is that what you’re saying? I’m not sure I’m following,” I replied. “That’s not what I’m trying to say. I’m just trying to say that I believe I’m meant to be gay. That’s what I wanted to say.” “Okay, you’re meant to be gay.” “For some reason, I don’t know.” “Yeah,” I replied. “To help others or whatever.” “There’s a purpose,” I reiterated. “Right.” Here Andrew first indicated that he believed something had to happen to make him gay when he was little. Then he rejects that explanation in favor of there being another reason or purpose for why he is gay. Again, the sudden shifts indicate SOP issues. Earlier in the first interview, Andrew said, “And when I think about how God been so good to me through all these times in my life, sometimes I wonder, why did I go through these things? Sometimes I wonder why I’m gay, and, but everything has a reason to it. If I could help it, I would be with a woman. But I just, it’s not there, that that touch and that feeling for women is not there, I just can’t be with one. I like men. So I, I’d rather stay this way and people. My auntie is saying, ‘Well it’s all up to God to change you.’ I was like I know God could change me, but I don’t believe that he wanna change me. You know what I’m saying?” We see several examples of SOP issues here. Andrew goes back and forth again between questioning why he is gay and believing there is a reason for it. He also shifts around whether his sexual orientation is determined or is a choice/changeable. First he says that if he could choose (“help it”) to be straight, he would, but it is not possible for him to change (“I just can’t

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be”). Then he contradicts himself, saying that he would “rather stay this way” and that “God could change me.” These two statements imply that his sexual orientation could change either by his choice or through God’s will. The SOP difficulties Andrew experiences around his sexual orientation are understandable given the terror associated with his family finding out and how he was treated growing up. Coming out. Early in the first interview Andrew talked about coming out to his family. He said, “When I got in the hospital, I told my family that I was gay. I told them that I was gay, I was like- ‘You know I’m just going to keep it real with y’all, you know I’m not going to lie anymore. I’m not going to try to hide it anymore.’ I was telling them, though, when I come to Woodside, I was like, ‘I’m not coming back because I don’t want to be around y’all, because y’all don’t accept it.’ Y’all don’t accept me. Don’t act like y’all do, because I know y’all don’t. And so, come to find out, I call, actually I call my sister. I want to say she called me, but I called her. And I was talking to her and she said that my cousin missed me, so I was like, and this is one of the cousins that, um, that I feel really don’t like me. You know really don’t look at me as being a person that she can like. You know family sometimes can be the worst ones, you know. And, you know really dealing with this and really dealing with the whole situation about me being gay. You know they don’t understand why I’m like this. You know what I’m saying? They don’t understand that this is the reason why I’m like this. Sometimes I don’t understand it. But I know God loves me no matter what because he knew I was going to be like this when I was a little boy. He knew that my life was going to end up in this situation where my family wasn’t going to understand me. My dad wasn’t going to understand me.” Andrew came out to his family when he was 19 and in the state hospital. He does not feel accepted or understood by them. Andrew indicates how painful this is when he says, “Family sometimes can be the worst ones.” Given the fear and pain associated with his family knowing that he is gay, it is not surprising that Andrew struggles with SOP around coming out to his family and their acceptance. We also see another example of his SOP difficulties around understanding his sexual orientation when he said “sometimes I don’t understand it.” Note that here Andrew is angry that they do not accept him. At this point we will move on to Andrew’s experience of coming out to his family. I started off the third interview by asking Andrew, “So I guess the first question I was going to ask is, um, what was it like when you came out to your family?”

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“When I told them that I was-?” “Yeah.” “Well, it was kinda’ hard. Then again it wasn’t because, I knew what I was facing. I knew that, that some of them wasn’t going to like it- especially my sisters on my mom’s side. I knew they wasn’t going to like the fact that I was. But I just had to keep it real with them. I just had to tell them how I felt. And just them the whole- the whole point. “ “Mm-hmmm. Ok. And your dad?” “My dad, he said he kinda knew it. That’s what he told me when I told him. And, now he said he’s accepting of it, so that kinda make me feel comfortable.” “Ok. “So when it’s time for me to go back to ______, you know I will feel some time type of peace with my family, you know, knowing that someone still loves me. You know what I’m saying?” “Who still loves you?” “My family. Yeah.” “You were worried they wouldn’t?’ “Not so much worried about it that they loved me, but if they was- will accept me. You know?” Here Andrew talks about his dad accepting that Andrew is gay whereas before his family did not accept him. We see the sudden switch without awareness indicating SOP difficulties. The way Andrew differentiates between love and acceptance is remarkable because to love someone means to accept them for who they are. Yet Andrew suggests that he is not worried about his family still loving him, but rather that they will not accept him. In the fourth interview, when we were exploring Andrew’s fears during his childhood about his parents finding out that he was gay, I asked Andrew how his dad felt about gay people in general. Andrew replied, “Well, now it’s like my dad, he he’s really not comfortable with it, you know, but I told him that I am and can you please accept me for who I am, and I told him that. And he was like, ‘Well son, I’m going to have to accept you anyway because you’re my son. I accept you as my son.’ He said, ‘I’m going to have to accept you anyway because you’re my son,’ but he was like, he was saying that um, I forgot what he said. He said something like, he accept me for who I am, but he was like, something like the gay- the gay stuff really don’t

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matter, or something like that he was saying. I really couldn’t it, you know, I really couldn’t get it down (pat) to what he was trying to say. Cause like, he was still uncomfortable with it. Like real not accepting of it cause he’s real religious. And you know, he’s not accepting of it. I already know he’s not. And I wouldn’t want to be around him, you know, knowing that he’s uncomfortable with it.” Here we see more confusion around his father’s acceptance. First his father is accepting because Andrew is his son. His father says something like, “the gay stuff really don’t matter,” perhaps implying that Andrew’s being gay does not change his acceptance of Andrew. Then Andrew says his father does not accept him because he is very religious. The confusion and abrupt shifts speak to Andrew’s difficulties around SOP, which are made worse by his father’s inconsistency. I also want to point out that, growing up, Andrew’s sexual orientation was not accepted. Thus, throughout his life, his parents rejected a part of who he is, which can be traumatic and contribute to SOP problems (e.g., my parents’ love will disappear/I will lose them if they find out that I am gay). Andrew continued, “And, even my sisters. But my sisters on my dad’s side of the family, they accepting of it. They don’t see nothing wrong with it. That’s what I like about that, but, my two sisters from my mom, they not accepting of it either. They talks about me still- to this day. They say um, they would say um, they would say um, like when I talk to them on the phone, like maybe a couple of weeks ago. No maybe less, when I talked to them on the phone, and um, she was like, ‘That’s nasty. That’s not clean.’ And all this stuff and just trying to make me feel like, you know, like I’m not even worth it. And I- I was upset, you know what I’m saying. But I didn’t let it come out and, just let it, like the reaction of what I wanted to say didn’t come out. I just kept it in.” Andrew’s sisters make hurtful comments about his sexual orientation that invalidate Andrew and leave him feeling like he is “not even worth it.” Andrew said he held his reaction in, so I asked, “Okay. Um, what did you want to say?” “I wanted to say that- ‘Y’all don’t understand me. Y’all never did. I always wanted to tell y’all that I was gay, but I didn’t- I knew y’all wouldn’t understand me because y’all never did. Y’all used to always talk about me but you never understood me. Y’all don’t know what- why I’m gay.’”

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Andrew is hurt and angry because he was never understood. We can hear the pain from wanting to share who he is, but having to hold himself back because he knew they would invalidate him. In the second interview I asked, “What’s changed since you told them?” “Everything. It’s like they just look at me differently now, I haven’t seen them in 4 months but, I just feel that, however God does this situation with, with me being gay and my family thinking I’m weird and stuff like that. Just don’t know. Whatever happens, is what happens.” Here Andrew talks about a sudden shift since coming out to his family. The way he describes it indicates SOP difficulties because it is like his entire past suddenly disappeared and was replaced by something new (“everything” has changed). Andrew continued, “It’s like they really think I’m weird now. They be like, ‘That’s nasty. That’s not right. That’s not clean. That’s, how you gonna make it into heaven like that?’ And, it’s stuff to just irritates, they just say stuff to just irritate me. I don’t know if they do it on purpose or what.” “I can see it really hurts you,” I commented. “It does. I just want to be accepted for who I am. I’m not doing, I’m, the way I’m living as I see it is not being bad. I feel like there’s nothing wrong with how I’m living. And then they, I don’t know.” “You see it as nothing bad, but then they, they don’t,” I reflected. “They take it overboard, they talked about it. They talked about, they talk about gay people. They talk about what what, um, what they feel and what they understand about it and, I don’t know, it just, it’s a lot of petty stuff.” “A lot of petty stuff? Like what?” “Like, I don’t know if it’s with them being uncomf-, if it’s gonna be like, they gonna be uncomfortable around me, seeing me with nails on and makeup, and you know. I don’t think they’ll be able to handle it. You know. Mmm-mmm.” Andrew expects his family to continue making hurtful comments about his sexual orientation. While him wearing makeup and painting his nails is new, he is still the same person. However, they are treating him like a different person. Suddenly he is “unclean” and unfit for

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heaven. The shift in the way Andrew’s family treats him only exacerbates his difficulties with SOP. In the first interview Andrew described about how his sisters have treated him and how they respond to him sharing with them new aspects of his life as a gay man. Speaking of his sister Tina, Andrew said, “We don’t get along at all. Like one time I called my sister, Celeste on her cell phone and Tina answered and I was like- ‘Hey Tini, how you doin’ girl?’ She was like, ‘I’m doing good,’ she sounding all depressed and shit.” Andrew laughed and continued, “So I’m like, um, I’m like, ‘How you doing? It’s good to hear your voice.’ She was like, ‘Oh thank you.’ I was like, ‘Where Celeste,’ she acted like she didn’t want to tell me where Celeste was. I’m like, ‘So you’re not going to tell me where she went?’ She was like, ‘She’s out.’ I was like, ‘What’s wrong with you?’ She was acting weird. So I was like, ‘If you’re going to be acting like that and this and that, I don’t want to talk to you.’ And then she was like, ‘What are you talking about?’ I was like, ‘You. What is wrong with you?’ And I was like, I was like, anyway. I was like, ‘I can’t wait till I get back, I’m gonna get my nails done.’ She was like, ‘See if you gonna be talking like that I’m gonna hang up on your ass.’ And I was like, ‘You know what? Bye.’ And I hung up.” For Andrew, part of his identity as an openly gay man involves wearing makeup and getting his nails done. Tina makes it clear to Andrew that she is not willing to be in relationship with him if he is going to share with her the new activities of his being gay. I reflected, “She didn’t accept that.” “She don’t accept it (at) all. That’s one of the reasons I don’t want to go back to __ __, because when I go back, I don’t give a fuck about what they gonna think about me. I’m gonna get my nails did. I’m gonna keep putting my makeup done. Which I don’t have it on today.” Andrew laughed and continued, “But I’m gonna have it on tomorrow. But you know what I’m saying, it’s like they, they don’t accept it. They don’t accept it at all. None of them. Not even my dad or my stepmother. My dad talking about ‘Well, you’re still my son, I still love you. I just don’t like the fact that you’re gay.’” Andrew is clear that his family does not accept him being gay. We can hear his anger here towards his father for suggesting that he can separate his love for his son from his not liking part of his son. Andrew knows that love and acceptance are inseparable and so he feels a profound loss with his family’s rejection. “Ouch,” I replied.

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“So that’s one of the reasons I don’t wanna be around them. They don’t understand me. It’s like they just want to see it how they see it. When I try to explain something to them, it’s always- ‘Well you’re gonna go to hell.’ That’s all they say. And then I see it as them, their sins, you know, like my sister, she told me I’m gonna go to hell. And she’s all having sex and she’s not even married. That’s a sin!” Andrew laughed, “So I kind of threw it back at her in her face and she’s like, ‘Well, having kids is a lovable thing.’ I’m like, ‘Okay, but” Andrew laughed again. “But you’re supposed to be married before you have the kids?” I asked. “Right!” Andrew laughed. “Now you see my sin as being gay and I’m, and being gay is just liking the men. And maybe in a romantic way, and loving him and being there for them. And I’m wondering how is that possibly wrong? I mean you don’t understand it, you don’t understand the meaning of it because you’re not me. You know what I’m saying?” “How could that be wrong? To want to be in a committed relationship with another person,” I reflected. “Right.” “Who just happens to be a man.” “Right. And God understands that. He does. I know He do. But it just be so hard for other peoples to understand. They can’t understand my heart and where it’s going.” Not only does his family reject him, but when they say he is going to hell, they also suggest that God will reject Andrew. Andrew’s family’s intolerance prevents them from understanding and validating who he is in a deep and meaningful way (“They can’t understand my heart.”) Andrew’s relationships with his family members have been limited and will continue to be limited until they can appreciate all of who Andrew is. Self-other permanence in current relationships with family. For Andrew’s entire life, he has felt misunderstood. For 19 years he held back part of who he was and lived in fear of the rejection he would face if he revealed that he was gay to his family. The pain and trauma of having part of himself rejected and living with conditional love interfered with Andrew’s development of SOP. We can see examples of Andrew’s difficulties with SOP in the way he currently experiences his relationships with his family. In the second interview I asked Andrew, “Who do you feel close to right now?” “Nobody.”

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“Nobody. Have you ever felt close to someone?” “Yeah, my sister.” “Okay.” “What I have to say, that I feel close to my sister, it’s probably just since I haven’t seen her in a long time, it’s like, um, it’s like I haven’t, I haven’t seen her. It’s, You know what I’m saying, it’s like I’ve been away from her for a long time, so it’s like, it’s like I just never seen her before.” Here we have a clear example of SOP difficulties. When Andrew does not see her, it is like he has “never seen her before.” In other words, when they are apart for a while, their relationship disappears or she becomes a new person, a stranger to him. I asked, “Can you tell me more about what that’s like for you?” “It’s like, it’s painful not having nobody to support me. You know, they think I’m weird still because, they say that I’m out of my mind for, for being gay and stuff like that. It’s just, I don’t know.” “It’s really tough, being so alone,” I commented. “Yeah. It’s tough.” “And you said not seeing your sister, feels like you’ve never seen her, almost.” “Mm-hmmm,” agreed Andrew. “When did it start feeling like that?” “About last, the end of last month.” “What did you notice?” “I noticed that, it got hard, harder with being away from my family, cause (I’ll) always love my family it’s just that um, being away from them make me feel like I’m not close to them. Like I, like, like it was even at first when I felt wasn’t close at all. You know what I’m saying?” When Andrew is away from his family, he feels like he is not close to them. He cannot maintain a sense of connection when separated, indicating difficulties with permanence. However, it is questionable how close Andrew ever was to his family to begin with given that he was trying to hide his sexual orientation. I replied, “Not sure, can you say more?” “It’s like being, being without them, is like impossible. Like I don’t understand why they choose not to wanna’ be around me when I want to be around them. And it’s different cause I, I

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don’t understand why they don’t wanna be around me. Or wanna talk to me or, I don’t know if it’s that way or if I just feel that way.” I asked, “You don’t know if they actually don’t want to or if you just feel like they don’t want to, or?” “Right.” “Okay. It’s hard to make sense out of why you don’t see them more,” I reflected. “Yeah,” confirmed Andrew. I continued, “Yeah. You said it, being far away from them or, it feels like, you were never close to them or something, I can’t remember exactly what you said.” “I said being away from them makes me feel like, like I never was, um, close to them. Like being close to them, like like, talking to them and hanging out with them and being around them, like on the holidays and stuff. And like now that I’m out here at the state hospital, it’s like I missed out on some of the holidays, like Easter, and Memorial Day. Spending time with them. It’s just, it’s hard right now. You know, cause I miss them dearly, it’s just that, I have to face the fact that things have changed, with you know, since I told em that I was gay and stuff. That things have changed and, and so it’s not the same as it used to be. You know, and I just, I just wish we can just, they can just love me for who I am and not, you know throw branches and stuff at me like, like okay ‘he he he is not right for doing this, and, people just influencing him and telling him stuff.’ And that’s not true. I’ve always been like this, it’s just that I wasn’t able to come out with it when I was old- younger and tell them that I was gay. But, I don’t know. Mmmm.” Again, Andrew’s experience is consistent with SOP difficulties, because his connection with his family disappears (i.e., he feels like he never was close to them) when he is separated from them. Also we see how in some ways, Andrew’s difficulties with SOP are real. His family does treat him differently now that he is openly gay. Andrew is profoundly distant from the people he is supposedly closest to in his family. We also see SOP difficulties in the ways that Andrew experiences or describes his family. In the second interview Andrew says, “I miss my family. I miss em, I miss being around em, laughing and joking around and playing. I miss it all.” “Yeah.”

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“I have a good family, just sometimes they treat me as – as if I’m not wanted. You know like, if, I just, if they just don’t wanna be around me. They want me to leave or go home. You know. They’ll just try to put something together and say, ‘Okay, we don’t want you around.’ Or some- that’s how it used to be. I don’t know how it is now.” Andrew has recounted many ways his family has hurt him, rejected him, and never understood him. As we have already seen, in the first interview, he said, “family sometimes can be the worst ones.” And yet here Andrew describes a markedly different family, a loving family that laughs, jokes, and plays. Then he talks about his family treating him as if he is not wanted. It is almost as if Andrew has two families, the loving one and the rejecting one. The abrupt switches and distinctions we see are examples of SOP difficulties. It is not surprising that we see Andrew struggle with SOP when thinking and talking about his family, as many of his early experiences with them were traumatic and involved significant invalidation of who he is (i.e., core constructs). In fact the reemergence of SOP difficulties in conjunction with discussions of his family speaks to the ways his early experiences disrupted his development of SOP. As an aside, Andrew’s father was “depressed” after Andrew’s mother died. In dealing with his own grief, Andrew’s father may not have been able to be there for Andrew. Thus, in effect, Andrew was without either parent in that difficult time. In the third interview Andrew described a difficult episode he had last year when he ran away from the group home to his granny’s house. I asked Andrew, “So you lived in the group home, so after 10 months, and then what happened?” “I ended up in Presbyterian Hospital because I ranned away from uh the group home because I got tired of living there. I was scared. That’s when I had lost my mind. I was scared and, I didn’t know what to do. I came, because I was gone. I had a nice day that morning, I got up and went down to my sister’s shop and hanged out with them. And I was just having a good day and whatever. And then um, I get back to the group home. And I walk upstairs to my apartment….So I, I didn’t feel right. I couldn’t sleep. You know and so, I just, it’s like, I don’t know, I just packed all my stuff … And I had, I left. I had- had the bags in my hands and I was just- I was just- I was just gone. I was walking, I walked all the way to my granny’s house and when I got there I just got to crying and crying and crying and crying and crying. Just was crying real hard and it felt like the TV was talking about me. And it felt- it was just strange.”

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“What were you crying about?” “I was crying because I was saying I missed my daddy. I wish everything was normal. I wish, I wish my momma woulda never left. I wish my sister was here with me. I wish that Latisha, Sonny was here with me.” “You wish that who?” “Latisha and Sonny, that’s my brother and sister. I was wishing they was there with me at the moment. And I was just- I was just feeling real sad. I just felt all alone. Cause when I was at the group home for 10 months, didn’t nobody come and see me. Didn’t nobody come and see me. My dad and my stepmom came to see me, probably- probably every 3 months or something like that. But, there wasn’t nobody coming to see me. And I felt all alone.” Even though Andrew’s dad and stepmom visited every 3 months, he still felt like nobody came to see him. Andrew probably felt like no one came to see him because, even when they did visit, there was no meaningful contact. We get a sense of how alone or isolated Andrew is in this family. Andrew was not even close with the people he was supposedly close to. As I mentioned earlier, Andrew was distant from his mother, the close, more loving and nurturing of his two parents because she did not share herself with him. Also, Andrew is no longer close with his sister, the other family member that he used to feel close to. Andrew describes feeling “all alone” leading up to a more severe episode of SOP difficulties. We will see this happen several more times. The associations between feeling “all alone” and appearance of SOP difficulties suggests that these later experiences of feeling alone remind Andrew of earlier traumas around feeling alone as a child. In other words, the early traumas of feeling alone disrupted Andrew’s development of SOP; when he finds himself experiencing similar feelings of aloneness, Andrew’s SOP vulnerabilities are triggered and he becomes symptomatic. “Yeah. And then what happened after that?” “My dad came. I called, I kept calling my dad, he wouldn’t answer the- So I called him again. He answered. And I’m like, ‘Dad’ I was like, I was like, ‘I’m scared. I’m hearing voices. I’m not myself.’ He was like, ‘Andrew.’ He was like, ‘I’m on my way. Stay there.’ So he came and he- he pulled up. He walked in the door and um, um after that he came through the door. I’m like- no that’s not what happened. I was like, I was like- I called him. I was like, ‘Dad.’ I was like, ‘Can I come and stay with you and Diane? Can I come and stay with y’all?’ He was like, um, he was like, ‘No you can’t come stay with me.’ I was like, ‘Dad what is your problem?’ I got

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loud with him, I was like, ‘I don’t want to stay there no more.’ And w- this and that. And I hung up on him. So he calls back. My brother Simon walks in and he said, he was like, ‘Daddy want to speak to you.’ So I, I got the phone, and he was like, he was like, ‘Andrew.’ He was like, ‘What is wrong with you?’ And he was just talking and so I was like. I was like, I was like, ‘Fuck you.’ [laughs] And hung up the phone.” Andrew offers two totally contradictory explanations. First Andrew says that he called his dad because he was scared and his dad agreed to come. Then he says that he called his dad and hangs up on him because he refuses Andrew’s request to stay with him and Andrew’s stepmom. Andrew’s abrupt switch in his narrative and lack of awareness are characteristic of SOP difficulties. Andrew went on to describe how he ended up chasing his father around his grandmother’s house with a knife. No one was hurt. The police came and took Andrew to a psychiatric unit. The first time his mind was gone. In our first interview, Andrew described his earliest experiences with losing his mind. I asked, “When’s the first time that it happened?” “It happened when my mother was living too. But I don’t think they knew because I was young. But I remember it. I don’t think they knew that part of my mind was gone. It was just something that I knew.” “Yeah,” I replied. “You know what I’m saying?” “It was something that nobody could see from the outside, but that you could feel,” I offered. “Yeah.” I threw an age out, “So were you like 6 or 7 or even younger when it first started happening?” “I was younger.” I tried again, “Maybe 2 or 3?” “I want to say around, 6 or 7,” replied Andrew. “Six or 7 years old. Ok.”

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“It happened. You know what I’m saying. And I was scared. And I just wanted to lay under my mother. But she had always had to go to work and stuff. And it was just hard. You know my life just been so strange. It just been strange you know all through my life growing up, it just been strange. You know what I’m saying? I don’t understand it. But I know God is with me always. You know I just have to keep saying it because-” Andrew started crying. Andrew started struggling with part of his mind leaving by the age of 6 or 7. He felt frightened and alone. He wanted his mother to comfort him, but she was not available (“she always had to go to work and stuff”). These experiences clearly imply that Andrew experienced trauma prior to his mother’s death. I asked, “What’s wrong?” “I’m sorry,” replied Andrew. “That’s okay. Here let me get you a Kleenex.” “It was some scary times I had to go through. [tearful] Scary moments and stuff that just I, I (don’t) understand why I had to go through things I been through. Losing my mind. It’s so scary losing your mind. It’s just, I can’t even explain it completely to you because it was so scary, just losing my mind. It was like I couldn’t cause myself to come back. I couldn’t say – come back Andrew, come back to your senses. I couldn’t, just my mind was gone. And it hurted. I didn’t know what to do, I was young.” “That sounds so scary.” “I couldn’t tell my mother that my mind was gone. Or my dad. I didn’t know what to say.” “You didn’t even know how to express it,” I said. “Right. But I was the only one that knew it.” “You must have felt so lonely.” Andrew replied, “I did. I felt lonely. It’s like something told me that my mother was going to die.” Andrew remembers experiencing difficulties with SOP (feeling like his mind was gone and losing himself) when his mother was still alive. It seems he may have had these experiences as young as 6 or 7. Not only was losing himself terrifying, but Andrew also felt alone and isolated because he did not know how to communicate what he was going through. Experiencing something profoundly upsetting, such as losing your mind, and not being able to share it with the

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people you are dependent on for survival is traumatic. Thus we have clear examples of trauma before Andrew’s mother died. Furthermore, Andrew may be alluding to additional early trauma when he says “It was some scary times I had to go through. Scary moments and stuff.” Given that comment and the fact that Andrew recalls struggling with SOP (losing his mind) several years before his mother died, it would be surprising if there was no additional trauma. In the second interview, Andrew suggests what that trauma may be. Earlier trauma. We do know that Andrew experienced several traumatic incidents before his mother’s death. In the second interview I asked Andrew, “Did something happen to you?” Andrew replied, “I was raped.” “I’m sorry,” I replied. “When I was younger.” “How old were you?” I asked. “I was, 11.” “Did it, how many times did it happen?” “Just once.” “Okay. And who was it?” “Some um, it was a teenager. Um, I don’t know, I don’t, uh, I think his name was ____. He um, people used to call me gay when I was little. And I guess he heard it enough to make him think that I was gay for real. And so, I was gay though. But it wasn’t right for him to do what he did.” “No.” “He he um, he called me back to the bathroom. I was thinking he was going to give me some money and something but that wasn’t true. He called me back there to the bathroom when I was at a boys and girls club. So he he did like this [motions to come here] and I went and followed him to the bathroom. He grabbed my face like this and started kissing me and tongue kissing me. And then he pulled down his pants and took my hand and put it on his private part and he had me to play with it and, he told me to suck it. And then he sucked mine. I don’t, I don’t want to talk about it no more.” “That’s fine, I’m sorry. I’m really sorry it happened. Was that the- did anything happen before then, when you were younger?”

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“I don’t know if I was, I don’t know if my cousin um, molested me when I was just a little boy. I don’t know if that happened to cause me to be, I don’t know I just – I been gay since I was a little boy.” “So it sounds like your cousin may have molested you when you were little?” I asked. “Probably so. I don’t know. I don’t know what happened to me. Cause I don’t know, just for me to be gay when I was little. I believe that something had to happen. Know what I’m saying?” Andrew seems to agree that his cousin molested him when he was little (“probably so”) but then he takes the conversation in a different direction. I tried to stay with the potential sexual abuse, “Feels like something made you gay when you were little? Is that what you’re saying? I’m not sure I’m following.” “That’s not what I’m trying to say. I’m just trying to say that I believe I’m meant to be gay. That’s what I wanted to say.” Andrew again diverted us, so I followed his lead, “Okay, you’re meant to be gay.” “For some reason, I don’t know.” “Yeah.” “To help others or whatever.” “There’s a purpose,” I offered. “Right.” “And that’s totally unrelated to being sexually abused,” I said. “Mm-hmmm. Cause I was already gay when it happened.” Something happened because Andrew said, “when it happened.” I was trying to figure out what “it” was, so I asked, “So, did your cousin?” “I never got raped or nothing by my cousin or nothing.” “Ok.” “Ain’t nothing like that ever happened.” “But something happened?” “Like what?” “I don’t know you, put it out there sort of that something might’ve happened with him.” “My cousin?” “Mm-hmmm.”

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“Well me and my cousin had sex.” “Okay. How old were you when that happened?” “I was about, 15.” “Okay, mm-hmmm. And how old was your cousin?” “Fifteen.” “Okay. So you were the same age.” First Andrew says nothing happened, and then he admits that he and his cousin had sex. They were both the same age, and it seems like it may have been consensual and not traumatic, although Andrew’s next response is a bit surprising. Andrew said, “I really don’t like talking about this type of stuff.” “Okay.” Andrew laughed, “______brings back memories. I don’t want to start crying.” It seemed that when he talked about having sex with his cousin after talking about the rape, he was moving into safer territory, but clearly he is still remembering painful events. The discontinuity and seeing Andrew deny and then reveal when I asked again lead me to continue exploring. I said, “Yeah. I was just trying to understand if something else happened to you when you were younger. You’re nodding, so something did?” “Hmm?” “I was wondering if something happened to you when you were younger than 11.” “That was it,” Andrew replied. “Okay. Nothing happened to you when you were younger?” “Not that I remember?” Andrew seemed unsure. “Is it possible that something happened that you don’t remember?” “Oh, I know what it was. When I was younger, this is when my mom was living. My cousin Carl, um, he came to stay with us one night. And, that’s when I was, it was hard for me to sleep at night and stuff. Um, he was laying in my bed. We had to sleep in the same bed because he didn’t want to sleep on the floor. So, he he was touching me and I was touching him and, it was weird. I didn’t feel comfortable so I got up and went and laid in my mom’s bed. And that was it.” First “that was it,” but then when I asked one more time, Andrew remembered this additional incident with an older cousin.

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“How old were you when that happened?” I asked. “I was ten. About ten.” “Okay. Mm-hmmm. It was before your mom died.” “Yeah.” “You said you were having trouble sleeping?” “I was having trouble sleeping. And um, I couldn’t sleep so, I went and um, got in my mom’s bed. And so that’s when my cousin came in and he was like, ‘Andrew, can you come back in the room with me?’ I was like, ‘No.’ Told him no. And my mom just, that’s when my mom came in the room with me and him and she, she sat in the rocking chair and um, I went to sleep while she was next to me.” “And he was still there?” Andrew nodded his head yes in reply. “Okay. Did he go to sleep too then?” “Mm-hmm.” “Okay. How old was he?” I asked. “I think he was about, about um, I think he was a teenager.” “Oh, ok. So he was older than you.” “Yeah.” “Yeah,” I repeated. Andrew asked, “Can we stop right here?” “Sure.” We ended the interview for that day and I did not ask Andrew to talk about these experiences again because he made it clear that he did not want to talk about it further. For a second time, Andrew denied that there was anything else that happened, and then suddenly remembered. The incident with his cousin when Andrew was 10 years old may be the extent of earlier trauma, but I suspect there is more. Andrew’s initial response of “probably so” to my stating the possibility that his cousin molested him points to early trauma. I also want to note that when something upset Andrew (i.e., his older cousin touched him) he went and got in his mother’s bed, but he did not tell her what was troubling him. It does not seem like he told his parents about the rape either. Earlier on, Andrew most likely tried to share distressing experiences with his parents and failed; thus, he learned not to seek them out. Not having

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caretakers who one can seek out for comfort, or, in attachment terms, not having a secure base, it traumatic for a child. In the earlier section “Alone and no one notices” we saw how upsetting it was for Andrew to feel so alone. Thus, Andrew not only endured many painful traumatic experiences throughout his childhood, but he had the added trauma of going through them alone. Ending up in Woodside. Andrew described the incidents that lead up to him being admitted to Woodside. He said, “I started back smoking, I got laced four times. I started back smoking, got laced again. And had to go back to the hospital.” “Did you hallucinate again?” “Yeah, but the last time, the fourth time was the last time. You know cause I really, it’s like God was sending me signs that I need to stop while I have a chance, you know maybe because there won’t be a next time. You know, it won’t be another chance next time for me to stop, and look and just wonder for a second and say, well I wish I never did that. Maybe I won’t have time to think about it. Maybe I’ll die just like that.” Andrew snapped his fingers. “The next time you got laced,” I responded. “The fourth time I got laced my eyes start rolling up in my head like I was having a seizure and, I was seeing things. The things I was seeing was black things running past me. And I was hearing voices.” Hearing voices that suddenly appear and seeing things that are not there are further examples of Andrew’s struggles with SOP. Andrew’s marijuana may or may not have been laced with some other drug. It sounded like he did not hallucinate every time he smoked marijuana. It seems plausible that for someone like Andrew whose development of SOP was disrupted, the effects of smoking marijuana could trigger more troubling SOP difficulties, such as auditory and visual hallucinations. “What were the voices saying?” “The voices was like just whispering my name.” “Just whispering Andrew?” “Yeah, like, they kept saying, ‘Andrew, Andrew, Andrew,’ but it was like scary. Like ‘Andrew!’ [whispers]. You know what I’m saying?” “Sinister, they sounded sinister.” “Like demons.” [laughs] “Like demons, okay. So that sounds really scary.”

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“It was. So I was like, you know I was like, I can’t take this no more, I can’t take this no more, so I grabbed my bag I started throwing clothes in my bag…What else did I get? I got some more stuff, and I just hurry up and zipped it up and I put on my shoes and my coat. Girl I put it on my and I told the staff lady at the group home, like I’m going back to the hospital. I don’t feel right. I don’t feel right. I don’t know what’s going on, I’m hallucinating. I can’t even look her in her eyes. I couldn’t look nobody in her eyes because my eyes going up like that [rolls eyes up]. And I was trying to look her in her eyes but I couldn’t because my eyes was like this. This is exactly how my eyes was going [rolls eyes up, eyelids fluttering]. I couldn’t look at nobody. It was a scary feeling. What happened was, I packed my bag and I went to the hospital.…So I went to the hospital and uh, I was like, I feel. The man came. First I was telling the lady I really need to see someone. I need to go back to the psych ward... I need to go back up there because I just, I smoked some weed and I don’t feel right. I’m hallucinating and I just couldn’t look at nobody. It’s like my eyes kept doing like this. [demonstrated eyes rolling up again] Just kept doing it. And I was like stuck. I’m remembering too much.” Andrew laughed and continued, “I was scared. Just put it like that- I was scared. Okay, so.” “What are you remembering?” I asked. “I’m remembering when my eyes couldn’t stop rolling behind my head, and the voices and the things I was seeing.” “The black things back and forth?” I asked. “Yeah.” “You’re safe now,” I said. “I know. I don’t want to go back to smoking. Because it’s scary. I don’t want to. I’m scared that I might die if I smoke weed again.” “Yeah, you’ve been lucky so far,” I commented. “I know.” “So when you were in the psych ward, you asked to be taken back to the psych ward and what did they do?” “They, this man came down and the same man that was there when I was there last time. This not is like the third time I got laced. I skipped the second time, that story. But I moved onto the third. Because the second time I got laced, didn’t nothing really happen I just was too high and I just passed out. I went to sleep. Because I guess it was just like some PCP or something. I

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don’t know what it was but, didn’t nothing really happen the second time I got laced, I just was hearing voices.” “What were they saying?” “The same thing.” “Your name?” I asked. “Mm-hmmm.” “Okay.” “I think that’s scary,” said Andrew. “Yeah, whispering your name.” “Yeah, that. In like a rage voice,” clarified Andrew. “Did it remind you of anyone that you know?” I asked. “That Scary Movie.” “Okay, Scary Movie,” I said. [I assumed he was referring to Scary movie (Wayans, 2000), which involved a masked figure making phone calls using a voice disguising device that made his voice sound raspy and chilling.] “So, the third time I got laced, well anyway, I went to the hospital, the man came down. He saw me. And so he came and looked at me, you know examined me, and he was like, ‘Well, you know, you don’t need to be here man. You don’t need to be in this place.’ And I was like well, I just, I was crying a little bit, I was like, ‘I smoked some weed and someone laced it and I’m not feeling right. I need to come back to the psych unit.’ So he was like, ‘Well, it’s up to the doctor.’ So he left. And a nurse came in, and she was like, ‘Well we going to send you up there’… I was in a wheel chair and they took me up to the psych ward. That’s when my eyes was still doing what they was doing. And I was talking to the lady. I had some glasses, I couldn’t find my glasses! [laughs] I took my glasses off and I didn’t know what I did with them. I was like, I must have threw them away or somebody took ‘em or something. Because I couldn’t find them. But um, when I went up there, to the psych ward I just went straight- they took me to my room. And I went to sleep. And the next day I woke up. I stayed asleep that whole entire day and I woke up the next day and my eyes had stopped.” “Oh good.” “So I was happy.” “How long did you end up having to stay on the psych ward that time?” I asked.

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“Just about 2 weeks.” “Oh, ok.” “And they let me out and the let me go home, back to the group home. And then, I had to go back again.” “The fourth time it got laced?” I asked. “No, you know what. The time I packed my bag and went back to the hospital, I stayed there. The time, you know I told you the time I packed my bag and went to the hospital. I packed it, I went back to the psych ward. Before that, I was already in Presbyterian for the second time.” “So you’d been in Presbyterian twice?” “I went there, yeah twice.” “Okay, and that was your third time?” “My third time, the second time they let me go home. The third time they kept me in there.” “For 2 weeks?” “Actually for 3 weeks. No, I want to say, 2 months they kept me in there. Scuze me. They kept me in there for 2 months. And, because they was going to send me here. They was going to send me here. They told me that, that I was going to go, I was going to come here. Then, after that, that’s when um, he was like, ‘Well, um, since no one is responding to us from this place, Woodside State Hospital. Since no one is responding to our calls and our e-mails, we gonna let you go back home.’” “To the group home?” I asked. “To the group home. And he was like, ‘The next time you come back, the doctor say he’s going to stamp the paper and you goin’ for real.’” “To Woodside,” I said. “To Woodside State Hospital. So I end up coming back, I came back because I was scared, I was just scared. No the reason I came back was because I was trying to kill myself.” “Ok.” “I had a comb, I was trying to stab myself with a comb in my belly button. I was trying to open, like see if it was going to go through.” “Why did you want to kill yourself?”

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“Because I felt all alone. I felt like I was just out there and it’s like my mind was kind of half-way gone. I didn’t have my mind all the way.” “What do you mean?” “It’s like a part of my mind was gone. I can’t explain it but it was like, I wasn’t myself. I just knew.” Andrew offers two different explanations for why he went back to the hospital: first he was “just scared” and then it was because he was trying to kill himself. Andrew felt alone and was struggling with self-permanence again as he was not himself and part of his mind was gone. Interestingly, Andrew often mentions feeling “all alone” in conjunction with losing his mind. If we assume that experiences that remind Andrew of earlier traumas trigger SOP difficulties (e.g., losing his mind), then perhaps early experiences of feeling alone within his family were traumatic to the extent that they disrupted Andrew’s development of SOP. In the third interview I asked Andrew, “Do you feel anything, do you have any sense before you’re about to lose your mind? What does it feel like?” He replied, “Feel like I’m lost. Like I’m lost. Like I’m in another state. And I’m lost and no one’s there and I have to find my way around.” “All alone?” “All alone.” “And then you lose your mind?” Andrew nodded his head yes in response. It makes sense that if early experiences of not feeling understood and accepted by his family, of feeling alone even when he was around them, and then losing his mother through her death and then his father through emotional isolation were traumatic and disrupted Andrew’s development of SOP, that later experiences of being alone which reminded him of these earlier traumas would be associated with the emergence of his struggles with SOP. Summary. Andrew’s symptoms such as feeling like his mind leaves and he becomes someone else, hearing voices, and visual hallucinations (e.g., seeing his mother and other figures appear) can all be understood as struggles with SOP. It seems likely that traumatic experiences Andrew endured during his childhood disrupted his development of SOP. Growing up, Andrew was terrified that his parents would find out that he was gay and no longer love him. His sisters called him gay slurs. Andrew’s mother, the one person he felt loved by, denied who he was along

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with the rest of the family. Andrew wondered whether his parents suspected he was gay. Having parents reject part of you when you are little can be confusing and disrupt your developing sense of continuity and wholeness as parts of yourself must be hidden and disavowed. Andrew’s experience of literally disappearing and reappearing speaks to the instability of his own sense of permanence. It is not surprising that Andrew struggles with SOP around his sexual orientation (e.g., why he is gay and whether his sexual orientation is fixed or changeable). Andrew’s mother got sick with cancer and died when he was 12 years old. Andrew was traumatized by his mother’s illness and death. We see Andrew struggle with SOP around his mother’s death (e.g., why she died and whether her death was connected to his sexual orientation). We also see connections between the trauma of her death and his more severe struggles with SOP (i.e., hallucinations). For example, Andrew’s mother appeared, and was really there for Andrew in the moon and on TV. Furthermore, Andrew noted that he tends to “get sick” (i.e., lost his mind) every November and December, the months when his mother was most sick and then passed away. Andrew reported experiencing struggles with SOP several years before his mother’s death (i.e., losing his mind). Andrew felt alone and unable to share these profoundly disturbing experiences with his parents. For children, being unable to express upsetting things to the people they depend on for survival is traumatic. Therefore Andrew was traumatized prior to his mother’s death because he felt powerless to express what was upsetting him. Andrew also described feeling afraid and that his life has been confusing, suggesting he experienced earlier trauma in addition to the strain of hiding his sexual orientation. We know that when he was 10, his teenage cousin slept over in his bed and they touched each other, and that when Andrew was 11, a teenager sexually assaulted him. Andrew also hinted at earlier sexual abuse by a cousin, but is unsure whether it happened. Assuming Andrew was sexually abused at a much younger age, this early trauma along with fears of his parents discovering his sexual orientation, would have started undermining his development of SOP making him more vulnerable to even greater disruption when his mother passed away. Andrew currently struggles with SOP in his relationships with his family. When he is away from them, he feels like he is not close to them. (Whether he is actually close to them when he is with them is another issue.) Andrew cannot maintain a sense of relational closeness if the

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other person is gone for a period of time. In other words, relationships disappear when people are not present. In summary, Andrew experienced more subtle trauma and most likely, sexual trauma starting when he was quite young, which, when combined with the additional loss of his mother, thoroughly disrupted his development of SOP. His symptoms of disorganization (i.e., confusion, switching, and inconsistency without any awareness of the contradictions), delusions (i.e., losing his mind), and hallucinations (e.g., hearing voices) can be understood as struggles with SOP. He also struggles with SOP in terms of maintaining a sense of connection when the other person is not present. We can see connections between the trauma and struggles with SOP in terms of: Andrew showing some ongoing SOP difficulties in conjunction with thinking about or discussing areas of trauma, the similarities between the manifestation of his symptoms and his traumas, and the coinciding of his mother’s decline and death in November and December and the repeated reemergence for Andrew of severe SOP difficulties in those same months. Alisha Brief description. Alisha is a 33 year old, African American woman. She is most likely a lesbian, but her sexual orientation and gender identity are areas of confusion for her. At the time of our interviews she had been in the hospital for 18 months. Her primary diagnosis was schizophrenia- undifferentiated type. She was also diagnosed with cannabis abuse, alcohol abuse, and personality disorder not otherwise specified. Alisha was sent to Woodside because she stopped taking her prescribed drugs and was smoking marijuana. The court ordered her to resume taking her drugs and, when she refused, she was hospitalized. Prior to her most recent hospitalization, Alisha had been out of the hospital for several years. (The years and ages provided in Alisha’s narrative are approximates, as she was occasionally inconsistent.) Alisha’s first of two prior hospitalizations was in 2001 for 1 month. She had been hearing voices and became homeless after being evicted due to her inability to hold down a job and pay her bills. She was put on antipsychotics. In 2004-2005 Alisha stopped taking her prescribed drugs and was hospitalized for 3 months. Alisha has a brother who is 1 year younger than she is. He was “mean” to her when they were growing up and they are currently estranged. Alisha’s mother raised her brother. Alisha lived with and was raised by her grandmother until she was 7 or 8 years old. At this point her grandmother fell ill and Alisha went to live with her mother. Alisha’s grandmother passed away

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when Alisha was 9 years old. Alisha’s earliest memory of her mother is of seeing her around the holidays when she was 4 years old. She reported that while she was living with her grandmother, her mother only came around for the holidays. Alisha did not see her father until she was 16. Her father reportedly wanted nothing to do with her because “she wasn’t dark enough.” At this point, she occasionally talks to him on the phone. Alisha’s mother was physically and emotionally abusive, hitting her and calling her names like “sow.” Alisha’s earliest memory is of being sexually abused by a minister when she was 2 years old. The abuse occurred regularly for several years. When Alisha was 9, her uncle touched her inappropriately. (Her chart says that an uncle sexually abused her.) Alisha indicated this was a one-time occurrence. Alisha started having sex when she was 12 with a boy who was 15. She got pregnant and had a son when she was 14. She left school in ninth grade. Her son’s father did not stay around and she described her relationship with him as just based on sex. Alisha started smoking marijuana when she was 16. When she was 22-23, a neighbor raped her. Around the same time another man attempted to rape her. Alisha indicated that, in all her relationships with men, they were mean to her and took advantage of her sexually. Alisha reported that she has had sex with 65 men. Her longest relationship lasted for 4 years and started in 2003-2004. This boyfriend was also mean and did not respect her. She is considering going back to him when she is discharged from Woodside. When Alisha was 18 she moved into her own apartment. In 2001, she started hearing voices and ended up homeless before being hospitalized. Alisha’s mother took her son before Alisha was evicted. After the hospital stay, Alisha went to a group home and then stayed in a hotel before moving in with her mother. She lived with her mother for 18 months and then moved into a hotel. From there she found her own place to live. She lived on her own until her second hospitalization in 2004-2005. She was discharged from the hospital into a group home. From there she went to live with her mother for 2 years. Alisha was living on her own when she stopped taking her medications again and was sent to Woodside. Alisha described forming several close long-term friendships starting when she was 6 or 7 years old with Lexie and Donna, who were sisters. Lexie and Donna moved to Chicago and, when Alisha visited them, she professed her attraction to Lexie. Lexie rejected her. Alisha slept

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with Donna’s baby’s father. There was a falling out and she has not seen her friends since 2004- 2005. Alisha and I met three times over the course of a month. (I provide the transcripts of our interviews in Appendix H.) Alisha is tall and significantly overweight. Her hair is cut very short. She wore a t-shirt and sweatpants to all three of our interviews. Alisha was cooperative and always willing to meet with me. Alisha’s responses to my questions were very short and she left long silences. It was difficult to get her to elaborate on her answers. She frequently reported not being able to remember things and her response to how she felt was almost always, “numb.” She appeared sad and was quietly tearful throughout most of the interviews. I had seen Alisha around the hospital. She was very quiet and seemed to keep to herself mostly. She was compliant with her treatment program and had full privileges from attending most of her classes and groups. On the surface, she appeared to be relatively undisturbed and high functioning. As we got into our interviews, I was surprised to hear of her internal experience. She could tune into the voices in her head when she wanted to, and often did at night before going to sleep. She had internal conversations with friends and family members as well as a relationship with the singer Beyonce. What I least expected was the extent of her confusion around her sexual orientation and gender identity. Narrative. Unlike interviews with other participants, Alisha did not spontaneously elaborate or take the conversation off in various directions. Much of our interviews go back and forth with me asking a question and Alisha providing a short answer. I tended to jump around a bit with my questions and so much of our interviews could be easily separated into discrete chunks based on the questions I asked. For her narrative, I describe her life mainly in chronological order, drawing from throughout the three interviews in order to weave together her story. I rarely needed to provide much context around where the sections of interviews came from because of the overall disjointed nature of these interviews. I begin with Alisha’s earliest memory and then move into her experiences growing up with her mother and grandmother. I cover her relationships with her father and brother. The next section deals with sex and relationships. I asked Alisha about who understands her and who she feels supported by. After that we hear about her friends and transition into Alisha’s gender confusion. The next section focuses on the manifestation of her psychological struggles and then we move forward to her current struggles and confusion. The final section deals with how Alisha

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ended up in Woodside. One note of clarification- “Mm-hmmm” indicates “yes” and “Mm-mm” indicates “no.” Earliest memory. I asked, “What’s your earliest memory?” “Uh, I was like two.” “Mm-hmm. And what was happening?” “Uh I remember being sexually abused by a pastor.” [pause] “You were sexually abused by a pastor when you were two? Where did it happen?” I asked. “In church.” [pause] I asked, “How many times did it happen?” “Seemed like a lot of times.” I repeated, “A lot of times. What do you remember about it?” “My grandma putting me in the office with him. And when I get ready to leave he would feel up my butt.” “He would feel up your butt. With his hands?” “Yeah,” replied Alisha. “What did he say to you?” “Nothing. ‘Have a good day.’” “And how did you feel when he did that?” I asked. “I was numb. Didn’t have no feelings.” “Did your grandma know?” “I don’t know.” “You don’t know if she knew.” “I didn’t tell her.” “No. And so every time she’d put you in his office, what would she say? Why did she put you in his office?” “I don’t know,” replied Alisha. I tried a different question, “What would she say before she put you in?” “I can’t remember.” [pause] “‘Go get some candy.’ Cause he would give me candy.” “So you’d go in, he’d give you candy. And then, did he have sex with you?” “No.”

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“Oh, okay. He would touch you?” “Yeah, as I was leaving the office he would feel up my butt.” [pause] “And your grandma kept sending you in there? After the first time it happened I wonder how did you feel going back in there?” “I didn’t have no feelings.” “When did it stop?” “Uh, probably when I was like 3 or 4.” Alisha’s earliest memory is of sexual abuse. The abuse started at a young age and continued regularly (“a lot of times”) for 1 to 2 years. Alisha describes being “numb” and not having feelings. Alisha’s numbness indicates that the sexual abuse was so traumatic and overwhelming that she was unable to make meaning out of it. Experiencing overwhelming trauma at such a young age may have disrupted Alisha’s development of SOP. As we will see later, the abuse also seems to have affected a specific area of Alisha’s self development, her sense of gender identification. “How did it stop?” “She just quit sending me in there.” “Did you ever tell anyone about it?” “No.” “How did you make sense out of it when you were younger?” “I just ignored it.” “You just ignored it.” “Yeah. Act like it didn’t exist.” Without anyone to care about or help the young Alisha make meaning out of the abuse, she did what she could- ignored it. “I’m so sorry that happened to you,” I shared. “That’s okay.” [pause] “You’ve survived a lot.” “Yeah.” “Are there other experiences like that that happened to you when you were growing up?” “Well, my uncle, he kind of made a move on me before too.” “How old were you?”

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“Uh, probably about 9.” “What happened?” “He just felt up my butt.” “Where were you?” “At my house in the basement.” “It was just the two of you?” “Probably.” “So he felt up your butt and then what happened?” “I just walked away.” “Did he, come after you or anything?” “No.” “Okay. Did anyone else know about it?” “No.” “How did you feel when he did that?” “Uh, probably felt bad, betrayed.” It is understandable that Alisha felt betrayed. Her uncle was a relative that should have been responsible for her well-being and someone she should have been able to trust to take care of her. He betrayed and violated that trust when he touched Alisha inappropriately. “Betrayed,” I repeated. “Yeah.” “What was your relationship with your uncle like?” “It wasn’t good. It’s better nowadays. Like we talk on the phone and stuff like that.” “Has he ever talked to you about what happened?” I asked. “No.” “What was your relationship like with him back then?” “It wasn’t good. I mean, he was like, he was real quiet, I was real quiet. We didn’t say too much.” “How did you make sense out of what he did?” “Just ignored it.”

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Again, without any way of making sense out of it and (as we will see) without any caretakers that Alisha could turn to for comfort, she is left alone to deal with this confusing experience. I reflected, “Ignored it. That’s the only thing you could do with it was ignore it.” “He didn’t know no better I guess. He had a problem.” “That’s how you understand it now? But back then all you could do was just ignore it, pretend it didn’t happen.” “Yeah.” “Yeah, that makes sense. Anything else in addition to your uncle?” Alisha shook her head no in response. Mother and grandmother. I asked Alisha about her childhood, “So who raised you?” “My mom and my grandmother. My grandmother raised me until she passed away.” “When did she pass away?” “In ’85” “How old were you?” “I was like 9.” “Oh, you were young when she passed away.” “Yeah.” “So then it was just your mom.” “Yeah.” “What was your mom like when you were growing up?” “We didn’t have too much of a relationship. It wasn’t really good. We didn’t really talk, we didn’t talk too much. And she still doesn’t talk to me.” “So when you think back on your childhood and growing up with your mom, were you lonely or?” “Yeah.” [pause] “Who could you turn to when you were upset or hurt?” “Nobody.” “It must have been really hard.” “It was.” Alisha started to cry and continued, “And on top of all that, she was abusive.” “What did she do?” I asked.

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“She would hit me. Like it wasn’t bad enough that we didn’t talk and she didn’t say nothing to me. And when she did say something it was all negative.” “So the only things she would say to you were negative.” “Verbal abusive.” Alisha’s mother was both physically and emotionally abusive as well as emotionally neglectful. By emotionally neglectful, I mean that she did not meet Alisha’s emotional needs; they “didn’t have much of a relationship,” they “didn’t really talk,” and Alisha could not go to her mother (or anyone else for that matter) when she was upset. There is no way that Alisha’s mother could have met Alisha’s emotional needs for comfort, connection, and support if they did not have a relationship, did not talk, and she could not go to her mother for comfort. Both depending on a caregiver who is physically and emotionally violent and being starved for affection are traumatic for a child. These sorts of confusing and overwhelming experiences may disrupt the development of SOP. I continued, “Did she call you names?” “Yeah.” “What kind of names did she call you?” “Like verbal abusive names and, um, just verbal abusive.” “Like what?” “She would say ‘sow,’ and ‘you just a sow.’ Stuff like that.” “A sow?” I repeated. “Mm-hmmm.” I was taken aback, so I attempted to clarify, “As in-” “An animal,” replied Alisha. “How did you feel when she said that?” “How’d I feel? I don’t know.” Alisha might have offered any number of emotions in response to my question of how she felt when her mother called her a sow (e.g., sad, hurt, or angry). Similarly to her describing feeling numb around the sexual abuse, Alisha’s answer of “I don’t know,” indicates that her mother’s insults were traumatic and disorganizing as Alisha shut down her meaning making process in order to avoid feeling the pain. In other words, it was too threatening to try to make sense out of why her mother was verbally abusing her.

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I asked, “What do you remember?” “Um, I remember arguing back with her. Saying, ‘No I’m not. Leave me alone.’ And stuff like that.” “And what do you remember about how you felt when you’d argue back with her and when she’d call you names?” “Huh?” “What do you remember about how you’d feel when she’d call you names and then when you’d argue back with her?” “I felt good arguing back defending myself.” “And when she’d call you names?” “I felt bad.” The best word that Alisha can come up with to describe how she felt was “bad.” Alisha’s use of simplistic vocabulary more appropriate for a young child suggests that primitive meaning making systems are activated around these traumas. In other words, her development of more complex ways of understanding her mother was disrupted by overwhelming threat. We will see more examples of this lack of sophistication around how Alisha talks about her mother and their relationship. “How old were you when she’d call you names?” “Uh like 12, 11, 12, 13.” “And when she hit you, did she ever say why she was hitting you?” “No, she didn’t have no reason to. She’d take her anger out on me.” Alisha’s mother was unpredictably violent. The randomness would make it difficult for Alisha to make sense out of her mother’s violence and leave Alisha in a constant state of fear, potentially making it difficult for Alisha to develop SOP. I asked, “Did you know when a beating was coming?” “Yeah.” “How did you know?” “When she’d come raging in my room. She’d be in her room yelling at me.” “How did you feel when you heard her yelling in her room?” “I don’t know.” “I wonder if it was scary for you?” I offered.

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“Yeah, it was scary, but at the same time I defended myself a little bit.” “How would you defend yourself?” “With words. I’d tell her I just wanted to die. I should just kill myself and be with my grandma. And she didn’t care.” “She didn’t care.” “No.” “When did you start feeling like you should kill yourself?” “When I was like, 10 or 11.” Alisha describes two types of trauma here: caregiver violence and caregiver indifference. Caregivers are supposed to protect children, and yet here Alisha’s mother seemingly ignores her daughter’s distress and threat to kill herself. We also see how horrific these experiences were for Alisha; she would rather die than continue enduring the abuse. Notice that Alisha again replied, “I don’t know” in response to my asking how she felt. I offered a suggestion and then Alisha spoke a little more. However, if I had not suggested a feeling, Alisha likely would have remained silent. It is almost as if she can react to suggestions but it is difficult for her to look internally to identify feelings. I continued, “So after your grandma was gone, it sounds like maybe things got worse?” “Yeah, because I stayed with my grandma when she was living.” “You lived with your grandma? How long did you live with her?” “Till she died. Like a year before she died.” “And when did your mom start abusing you?” “Soon after she died. Maybe even before. No, soon after she died.” “How come you lived with your grandma instead of your mom?” “I don’t know.” “They never explained that?” Alisha responded by shaking her head no. “So when did you start living with [your grandma]?” “Ever since I was born.” “Okay…so you were born and then immediately you went to go live with your grandma?” “Yeah.”

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“What are your earliest memories of your mom?” “When I was like, four, she would come around for uh, for the holidays. “Uh huh,” I replied. “Yeah.” I asked, “So you would see her at what- Christmas?” “Thanksgiving. Christmas.” “And what was that like seeing her when you were four?” Alisha paused before answering, “Can’t remember. It was all right I guess.” “How was she introduced to you?” “I can’t remember.” “Oh, when. Did you know she was your mom?” Alisha paused again, “Did I know she was my mom? Yeah, I knew she was my mom.” “So you knew your grandma was your grandma and your mom was your mom.” “Yeah.” “How did you feel when she would leave after each holiday?” “Um, just numb.” “Numb. If you hadn’t felt numb I wonder how would you have felt?” “Felt sad. Lonely, left out,” Alisha became more tearful as she said, “Because she took care of my brother but she didn’t take care of me.” “So, your brother, she raised your brother but not you?” “Yeah.” “How come?” I asked. “I don’t know.” “Never explained that to you?” “I guess that’s something I can ask her.” It seems surprising that no one ever explained to Alisha why her grandmother raised her instead of her mother and why her mother raised her brother but not her. In the absence of an explanation, it makes sense that Alisha would feel unwanted. Also, Alisha mentions feeling numb again, speaking to how confusing these experiences were for her. I continued, “What kind of contact did you have with your mom when you were living with your grandma?”

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“Only when she came around.” “What was it like when she came around.” “I can’t remember. I only remember her there on holidays.” “What was she like on the holidays?” “She was fine. It was all right, kind of, I don’t know. The same I guess.” “The same?” “I don’t remember.” “Would she talk to you?” “No.” “Would she fuss with you? Fuss at you?” “No.” “So she’d come around and she’d ignore you?” “Yeah. _____” “Did she acknowledge that you were there?” “A little bit.” “A little bit. What was that like for you?” “Hard.” “Yeah. What was hard about it?” “Just not having a good mom. Not having a good relationship with her.” It sounds like the contact Alisha had with her mother when she was little lacked affection almost entirely. Alisha indicates that she did not have a “good mom” and that when her mom acknowledged her, their relationship was not good. Again, Alisha used simplistic ways of talking about her experiences with her mother (“hard” and “good”). In this exchange we also see me working hard to explore and understand Alisha’s experience by asking a series of yes or no questions after she responded to my open-ended question with “I don’t know,” and “I don’t remember.” Alisha was really only able to provide minimal responses to my repeated and specific prompting. Based on her limited responses, Alisha seems to have little access to her memories or feelings around these experiences. We may understand these limitations and Alisha’s simplistic construing in terms of Alisha’s mother’s rejection and neglect being so threatening that Alisha suspended her construing of these events, freezing her meaning-making process and disrupting her development.

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I asked, “And when you were, when your grandma was raising you was it just the two of you living together?” “Yeah.” “What was your grandma like?” “She was alright. She didn’t say too much either. But she bought me anything I wanted.” “So she bought you things. Was she at all verbally or physically abusive?” “No.” “Okay, but she didn’t say much either.” Alisha nodded yes in response. “So, did you feel like you could go to her when you felt upset?” “I really didn’t express feeling. I didn’t have no, no expression. I was just numb. I didn’t have too much going on.” “So you were just numb? Do you ever remember a time before being numb?” “No.” We get the sense that Alisha’s grandmother met her physical needs, but not her emotional ones. The best caregiver Alisha had was emotionally unavailable and “didn’t say too much.” Alisha had no one to comfort her. Alisha’s description of not having “too much going on” and being “numb” again indicate that there were significant portions of her childhood experiences that she was unable to make meaning out of, most likely due to the threatening implications. While so far I cannot link the early trauma to SOP difficulties in the moment, Alisha’s memory difficulties and numbness or lack of connection to her inner experience (i.e., never knowing how she felt) are notable. It seems plausible that extensive early trauma interfered with her development of a core sense of self, because a core sense of self is necessary in order to have feelings and remember them. In other words, we have to develop a self that can react, act, and register feelings in order to remember how we felt. Alisha, on the other hand, “was just numb.” Bannister (1960, 1962, 1963) suggested that in response to “serial invalidation,”(like the repeated invalidation Alisha experienced) people may loosen their ways of construing to the point that their constructs are essentially no longer meaningful. Bannister (1963) explained, “Further invalidation is avoided at the cost of the inability of the person to produce testable anticipations” (p. 681). Another likely consequence of serial invalidation is memory difficulties. Without meaningful constructs to make sense of our experiences, we are unlikely to remember

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them, as they remain meaningless. Thus, we can understand Alisha’s presentation in terms of serial invalidation disrupting her development of foundational meaningful constructs (i.e., a core sense of self), limiting her ability to form coherent memories. Father. I asked Alisha about her father, “And how about your dad?” “He’s not around. I talk to him on the phone but he doesn’t do anything for me.” “How about when you were little?” “He never came around or anything.” “Do you have any memories of your dad? From when you were little?” “Uh, first time I seen my dad, I remember him a little bit when I was younger. Like, when I was first born or whatever. I could remember him a little bit being there. And then he left and I didn’t see him again till I was like 15 or 16.” “So he was there a little bit when you were very very young.” “Yeah.” “Just born.” “Yeah.” “And then he was gone.” “Yeah.” “How did you feel when your dad left when you were very young?” “Probably sad.” Here we see another example supporting Alisha’s lack of a core sense of self. She said she “probably” felt sad, as if she were guessing rather than remembering how she felt. I continued, “Did they ever explain why he left?” “Uh, I had a baby book and my mom had wrote in it ‘because I wasn’t dark enough.’ He didn’t want anything to do with me because I wasn’t dark enough.” “Because you weren’t dark enough?” “Yeah.” “Did that make sense to you?” “No.” “How did you feel about that?” “Left out.”

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“Left out… I’m glad you can feel things now. So it said in your baby book that he left because you weren’t dark enough?” “Yeah.” “Does that make any sense to you now?” “No, cause he still don’t do nothing for me. We talk on the phone but he don’t do nothing for me.” “Yeah. A lot of unanswered questions about your childhood.” Alisha was wounded by her father’s absence. The best explanation Alisha has for why her father abandoned her is that she “wasn’t dark enough.” This rationale did not make sense to her then and still does not make sense to her. Also, it strikes me as unusual that Alisha’s mother would include the comment “wasn’t dark enough” in Alisha’s baby book. We might ask, what kind of a mother writes such hurtful things in a baby book? Brother. I asked Alisha, “Did you have any brothers or sisters?” “I have a brother.” “Is he older or younger?” “Younger, a year younger.” “What was he like?” “He was mean.” “He was mean to you?” “Yeah.” “What did he do?” “He used to bother me.” Alisha paused for 30 seconds before continuing, “We didn’t get along. We barely get along now. He stays, he moved to Florida a few years ago. We don’t talk, too much. We talk, but we don’t talk too much. I try to be as nice as I can to him, to all my family, my mom, my brother, my father. They just don’t wanna, they just don’t wanna interact I guess, with me. They interact with each other, but they don’t wanna interact with me.” “That must be really painful.” “Yeah, it is.” Alisha has a poor relationship with her brother who was mean to her when she was growing up. She sees the rest of her family interacting and tries to be nice to them, but they do not include her. Alisha is rejected by and feels like an outsider in her family.

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Isolating from family. Alisha introduced her childhood friends Lexie and Donna elsewhere, and we will return to them later. In this next excerpt, I want to continue focusing on Alisha’s family. I asked, “Um, wondering about, so you grew up with Lexie and Donna?” “Mm-hmmm.” “Been friends since you were like 6 maybe? “Mm-hmmm.” “What was that like growing up with them?” “It was fun. I mean they made me feel wanted, they made me feel loved, and stuff like that.” “How did they do that?” “By wanting me around.” “What are some specific things-” “Complementing me on my clothes, and just wanting me around. Asking me to come over and. Cause I used to isolate myself a lot but they brought me out of it a little bit. They brought me out of it.” “Tell me-” “Just by talking to me and not giving up on me.” “Had other people given up on you? What do you mean by giving up on you?” “I mean, not really giving up on me, but just, they just talked to me, when I needed to be talked to.” The needs that Alisha’s friends filled speak to how unwanted, unloved, and alone Alisha felt in her family. I asked, “When did you need to be talked to?” “Um, when I was like, 16, they just made me feel comfortable.” “What was going on at 16?” “Uh, I was having some issues with my mom abusing me. Physically abusing me.” “What would she do?” “She would just hit me and stuff like that.” “Hit you.” “Yeah.”

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“And what kind of issues were you having with it?” “It was making me feel not wanted.” Alisha’s mother’s physical abuse makes Alisha feel unwanted. Again, we have the trauma of physical violence and the trauma of caregiver rejection. I continued, “And so they would talk to you.” “Yeah.” “And you said you would isolate?” “Yeah.” “When did you start isolating?” “Just as long as I can remember. Even when I stayed with my grandma, going to school.” “Can you tell me more about the isolating?” I asked. “I don’t know why I did it.” Alisha started crying and continued, “I guess I felt unwanted. Because of my appearance and stuff like that. And my mom not being around.” “So what did the isolating look like?” “What did it look like?” “Mm-hmm. What did you do to isolate?” “I just kept quiet.” “You kept quiet.” “Yeah because my dad wasn’t around too.” Alisha brings up first her mother and then her father not being around. To feel unwanted and essentially rejected by both parents would be traumatic and likely interfered with Alisha’s development of SOP. We will see how this trauma interfered with her development of SOP when, later on, Alisha will talk about how hard never feeling understood or supported by her family has been and SOP difficulties manifest. I reflected, “You felt unwanted.” “Yeah. And Lexie and Donna was like my second family.” “So ever since you can remember, you would isolate? You wouldn’t- you’d keep quiet.” “Yeah.” “What else would you do to isolate?” “Stay back from the crowd.” “At school or where?”

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“Everywhere. I just kept quiet a lot. I didn’t say too much.” “What would happen when you did say something?” “I felt like I would get abused or something.” “Who would abuse you?” “My mother.” “You said you started isolating even when you were younger living with your grandmother. I wonder what, and you said you’d keep quiet then too. I wonder what you were worried about then by keeping quiet.” “I don’t know.” “What happened when you spoke up then?” “I don’t know. Nothing.” It is interesting. Alisha indicates that she has isolated or kept quiet for as long as she can remember (as far back as when she was living with her grandmother), which was when she was less than 8 years old. Alisha kept quiet to protect herself because when she did say something, she felt like she “would get abused or something.” It is highly unlikely that Alisha came up with the connection between saying things and abuse without having actually experienced abuse for saying things. We know Alisha’s mother abused her, but that supposedly started when Alisha moved in with her mother. And yet, clearly Alisha learned to keep quiet much earlier on. The implication is that the abuse started well before Alisha moved in with her mother at age 7 or 8. I asked, “What else would you do to isolate?” “That’s it.” “How did you isolate at home?” “Just staying in my room all the time.” “By yourself?” “Yeah.” “And would your- would you eat meals together?” “No. I mean we would eat at the same time. But everybody ate in a different spot.” “Where would you eat?” I asked. “In my room.” “What was that like?” “It was hard.”

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We get a sense of how truly isolated Alisha was growing up. She kept quiet and her grandmother hardly spoke to her. Alisha even ate her meals by herself in her room. While Alisha’s physical needs were attended to, it seems that Alisha grew up in a state of abject emotional neglect. She was cared for, but never felt cared about. As we have already seen, throughout the interviews, Alisha often responded that she did not know or could not remember. In the third interview I commented on her memory difficulties. “Seems like there’s a lot of stuff that’s hard for you to remember.” “Mm-hmmm,” Alisha agreed. “Have you ever noticed that?” “Yeah.” “What do you make of that?” “I don’t like it. Cause it’s like, something’s, I don’t know. It’s- it’s a lot of stuff I can’t remember. I mean I can do something and just forget.” “Um, do you have any idea why that happens?” Alisha shook her head no in response. “No. Any particular pattern to how it happens?” “They say it, hypertension can cause memory loss.” “Oh, ok. So it could be related to that. How long have you been hypertensive?” “Uh, I know I was hypertensive when I was pregnant with my son.” “Ok.” “That was last- the first of me knowing about it.” “And so, but your memory issues go back to even when you were younger.” “Yeah.” “When you were younger did you have the same trouble with remembering things?” “Yeah.” “Ok. Ever since you can remember you’ve had trouble with memory?” “Yeah.” When people have been consistently invalidated as children, the constructs they create are not very meaningful in predicting the world, resulting in memory problems. Or, in other words, as I described before, serial invalidation (which is traumatic for a child) can prevent someone from developing a core sense of self (Bannister, 1960, 1962, 1963). Alisha also talked

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about being numb for as long as she can remember. Alisha likely numbed herself in order to avoid experiencing the pain around the trauma she faced. As I explained before, numbing disrupts the meaning making process, resulting in memory problems. Sex and relationships. I asked Alisha, “How old were you when you first started having sex with men?” “Twelve.” “And the first boy you had sex with, how old was he?” “He probably was like 16, 15 or 16.” “Oh, ok. And how did you end up having sex with him?” “I caught myself having a crush on him. He, he had asked me to go down to one of his friend’s house. And I went over there and we just had sex.” “Did you want to have sex with him?” “I didn’t know. I was just young. Didn’t know no better.” “Sorry, you were just young and?” “Didn’t know no better.” Alisha started having sex at a young age with an older boy. At age 12, no one has taught her about sex and relationships, or, if they have, the lessons did not make an impression on her. While Alisha sounds indifferent about having sex, as if she was just going along with what the boy wanted, she mentions, “having a crush on him.” It sounds like she may have been attracted to him. I mention this because later on, we will see how confused Alisha is about her sexual orientation. I asked Alisha about anger and Alisha said she had a lot of anger when she was 22-23 years old. She said she did not get angry anymore because she did not do things that made her angry. I asked, “What did you used to do that would make you angry?” “Like being in promiscuous relationships that I didn’t want to be in.” “So you would be in them even though that made you angry?” “Yeah. I didn’t want to be in them but I didn’t know I didn’t want to be in it.” Alisha did things, like sleep with men, even though it made her angry. We can understand this contradictory behavior and statements like, “I didn’t know I didn’t want to be in it,” in terms of struggles with SOP. For Alisha, it is as if the part of her that is angry about being

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promiscuous is not present when she engages in the behavior. When that part of her reappears, she is angry. However, during that time when that part us absent, she does not experience the conflict or anger and therefore is not aware (i.e., “didn’t know I didn’t want to”) she does not want to be in these relationships. I continued, “Oh. You’d be in them but you didn’t know you didn’t want to be in them.” “Yeah.” “But it made you angry.” “Yeah.” “Mm-hmmm. Yeah. You said also that you had a lot of pent up anger, or built up anger from relationships. What else going on when you were that age?” “Uh, just bad relationships. Yeah I wasn’t doing nothing else that made me mad.” “Just the bad relationships made you mad?” “Yeah.” “And what were those bad relationships?” “What were they?” “Yeah.” “With guys that I really didn’t care too much about,” replied Alisha. “What made the relationships bad?” “Uh, just doing things I didn’t like doing.” Alisha paused and then continued, “Not being there for my son like I should’ve been. Not having enough money. Being in bad environments.” “What kind of environments?” I asked. “Just being around bad people. Drugs.” “It was a really bad situation. So you were in bad relationships in bad areas with bad people who were doing drugs.” “Yeah.” “Yeah. And the relationships were bad because you were doing things you didn’t want to do.” “Yeah.” “How did they treat you?” “Bad. They treated me with no respect.” “They didn’t treat you with respect? No?”

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“No, I didn’t have respect for myself, so I didn’t, I didn’t expect them to have respect for me.” “So how would they not show respect for you?” “Just treating me mean. Take advantage of me.” “How did they take advantage of you?” “Just being there, and I didn’t want them there.” “So they’d be, they’d hang around when you didn’t want them there.” “Yeah.” “Did they physically or sexually-” “Yeah. Sexually abused. Not so much physical, just sexual.” “What did they do?” “Just be mean.” “They’d be mean to you sexually? How many men where there?” “A lot. I’ve slept with like 65 men in my life.” “Okay. What was the longest that the, that any relationship lasted?” “Uh, like 4 years.” “Who was that?” “My last boyfriend.” “Okay. How did he treat you?” “Mean. He didn’t respect me either. He didn’t respect how I feel.” “And when did you date him?” “Uh, we started dating in like, 2003. 2004.” Starting when Alisha was 12 to the present, she has slept with approximately 65 men. It is not clear how many of the 65 were “bad” relationships, but Alisha characterizes these relationships as generally “bad” because the men were mean to her and took advantage of her sexually (i.e., “sexually abused” her). Thus, Alisha experienced many more instances of sexual trauma in addition to the early sexual abuse, physical and emotional abuse, and neglect. Even Alisha’s longest-term boyfriend was mean and did not respect her. Who supports or understands you. I asked Alisha, “Who do you have in your life that supports you?”

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“Nobody.” She paused before continuing, “I mean, my mom, she calls, to see how I’m doing. She calls, she’s my biggest support I guess. Like I said, she’s been calling more often lately. Talking more.” “What’s that been like for you?” “Good.” Alisha paused and then continued, “I guess she just don’t understand me.” She paused again and then added, “My father don’t either.” “You don’t feel understood by them.” “No. By no one.” “You don’t feel like anyone understands you. It would be pretty hard and lonely having no one to understand you.” “It is hard,” agreed Alisha. “I’m sorry. Have you ever felt understood?” “No.” “Can you tell me more what it’s like to not be understood?” “You just want to isolate yourself. Go away. I don’t even want to be here no more. I wish I could just go to heaven and stay.” “You wish you were dead?” “Yep.” “Are you planning on killing yourself?” “No.” “But it’s so painful being here that it feels like it would be a relief to be dead.” “Yeah.” Alisha has no one who understands her and she has never felt understood. We get a sense of how painful it is for her to not be understood because Alisha says it makes her want to “go away” or “go to heaven and stay” (i.e., die). I continued, “What has happened when you’ve tried to connect with other people?” “Don’t work.” “Don’t work?” “They just turn their back on me.” “They just turn their back on you?” I repeated. “Yeah,” agreed a tearful Alisha.

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“What happens before they turn their back on you?” “I don’t know.” Alisha paused before continuing, “It’s like they don’t even connect to begin with.” “They don’t even connect to begin with.” “Like they got something against me or something.” “So like you feel rejected from the beginning?” “Yeah.” Alisha paused, “I don’t know if it’s because I have a mental illness or what. I just living one day at a time.” “One day at a time,” I repeated. “Yeah.” “And when you say your mom doesn’t understand you and your dad doesn’t understand you and nobody understands you. What is it that people are missing, what aren’t they?” “I don’t know. And a part of me though want to be accepted I guess.” “Of course.” “But I’m a strong person. I have to be.” “What does it mean to be a strong person?” “To keep living every day. I wanted to kill myself. I guess it’s not that bad.” Alisha talks about wanting to kill herself and then suddenly shifts and says, “it’s not that bad.” She offers no indication that she is aware of the contradiction. Such shifting without awareness is an example of SOP difficulties. Notice how talking about the trauma of feeling rejected and that no one (parents included) has ever understood her elicits SOP difficulties in the present. Thus we can see a connection between the early (and ongoing) trauma of being rejected by her family and Alisha’s difficulties with SOP. “Life isn’t that bad?” I reflected. “Yeah, I guess I can handle it. I’m a strong person, I guess. But.” “It sounds like life would be a lot easier for you if you had people who understood you.” “It would.” “Yeah…What helps you get through each day?” “Thinking positive. Knowing that I’m not going to be here one day.” It is possible that when Alisha says, “I guess it’s not that bad” and “I’m not going to be here one day,” that the “it” and “here” she is referring to are being the hospital. However,

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given that in the conversation leading up to this statement Alisha confirmed that she wishes she were dead and stated that she wanted to kill herself, it seems more likely that she is referring to being alive here on earth. Thus, it seems that living a life of isolation and disconnection is so painful for Alisha that what gets her through the day is knowing that she will die one day, ending her suffering. Friends and confusion. Alisha first mentioned her childhood friends early on in the first interview in the context of hearing their voices when she started hearing voices. Later in the interview I followed up on them. I asked, “You mentioned friends from when you were younger. What were they like?” “They were all right. They made me feel wanted sometimes. And feel like I was a part of them. But they don’t talk to me now. I don’t know why.” Alisha is concrete when she says, “feel like I was a part of them,” suggesting that she does not see herself as separate from them. If she experiences herself as literally a part of them, then she is struggling with self versus other difficulties as the boundary between self and other has dissolved. “You don’t know what happened? When did you drift apart? Or when did they stop talking to you?” “They moved to Chicago and I moved to Middletown. I had went and visited them one time. And it didn’t go too good I guess. And uh,” “It didn’t what?” “It didn’t go too good.” “Oh. What happened?” “Uh, I caught myself liking this girl and her sister didn’t approve of it. And she, she acted like she didn’t approve of it. The girl did, but was sending mixed signals.” Alisha started crying as she continued, “And uh, I was just expressing myself to her and she threatened to burn me.” “What did you say to her?” “Telling her I liked her. And I guess I was being kind of touchy-feely, a little bit. But I thought we were closer than that and she was threatening to burn me and she did.” “She threatened to burn you or she did?” “She threatened to.” “Her sister or the woman you were- ?”

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“The woman I liked.” “She threatened to burn you.” “Yeah.” “Oh. That really hurt you. Did she say, so she said, I’m gonna burn you if- ” “She was just like, ‘Lisha, I’ll burn you.’” “Were you attracted to her?” “Yeah.” I continued, “Okay. Was she the only woman you’ve been attracted to?” “Yeah.” “Was that confusing for you?” “Confusing? No.” I assumed that given the number of men that Alisha had been involved with, that she was attracted to at least some of them, so I asked, “Had you been attracted to men up until that point?” “I’ve never been attracted to men.” “Oh.” “I just had sex with them.” “How come?” “I don’t know. It felt like it was something I had to do. “ “You had to do it because…” “To make them happy.” “What would happen if you didn’t make them happy?” “Probably nothing.” Alisha paused and then continued, “Or they probably wouldn’t like me or something, I don’t know. I didn’t think a lot when I was coming up, I just did stuff. Stupid stuff.” “It sounds like you wanted them to like you.” “No, I didn’t want them to like me. I don’t know why I did it.” “So looking back on it, it still doesn’t make sense to you, why you did it?” “No. I don’t know why I did it. I just did it just to be doing something I guess.” First Alisha does not know why she had sex with men. Then she did it to make them happy or to avoid them not liking her. Then she did it “just to be doing something.” Alisha is

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unaware of the contradictions between her explanations, another example of SOP. Given that Alisha was sexually abused at an early age and was sexually assaulted as an adult too, it makes sense that talking about sex would elicit SOP difficulties as much of Alisha’s sexual experiences are associated with trauma. I asked, “Did you feel closer to them when you did it?” “No.” “Okay. So when you think about yourself in terms of your sexual orientation, what’s your identity like?” “I think I’m, gay. I really liked Lexie, the girl I was telling you about.” I replied, “Yeah. Have you told anyone about being gay?” “Not really. My therapist. Not really no.” “So your family doesn’t know?” “No, I told my dad.” “You did? How did he respond?” “He didn’t like it.” “What did he say?” “He was talking about having a party and he was like, well if you gonna come with her, then you shouldn’t come.” “With Lexie?” “No, it was a different girl at the time. But I’m not attracted to her.” “Were you dating her?” “No. I was telling him I liked her. And that I would show up at his party with her. And he said no.” “How did you feel when he said that?” “It was all right. I didn’t get too. I understood a bit.” “You understood.” “A little bit, yeah.” “What did you?” “Cause I didn’t know, I didn’t know if I was gay- the manly type gay or the other type gay. But, if it ever came down to it, I think I would be the other type gay. The girly type gay.”

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Alisha’s dad does not like that she is gay. In other words, he rejects part of who she is. Alisha seems less bothered by this invalidation than Andrew was. Given Alisha’s father’s peripheral role in her life and her confusion around her sexual orientation, the invalidation may not affect her core constructs the way Andrew’s father’s affected Andrew. Another reason why the invalidation is not very upsetting for Alisha may be that she does not have a core sense of self that is stable enough to threaten. In order to form self-permanence and a sense of who we are, we need to experience some consistent validation and feedback on our early experiences. As I have explained, given how early she was injured and how pervasively, she may not have been able to develop a core sense of self that is capable of being invalidated. In other words, invalidating aspects of who she is does not threaten her because there are no core constructs that form the basis for her sense of self. Also we are starting to see some confusion around Alisha’s gender identity. She is not sure whether she is “the manly type” or “the girly type” gay. I suggested, “Lesbian?” “Yeah.” “How do you feel about that?” “I’m happy about it.” “So your mom doesn’t know?” “No.” “So this is a part of your life that your mom doesn’t know about. Does your brother know?” “No.” “Did your friends know?” “Yeah.” “How did they respond?” “Only one friend know. I considered Lexie’s sister my best friend. And she knew I liked her sister. But, I guess she didn’t approve of it too much.” “How come?” “I don’t know. I don’t know why she didn’t approve of it?” “How did you know that she didn’t approve?” “Cause she was mad.” “Did she tell you she was mad.”

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“Mmm, at how I was coming off at her sister. But she should, she should’ve known. I mean we was sleeping together. We hadn’t had sex or anything, but I was staying the night with her. Sleep in the same bed as her. She knew that much. But she never act like she was mad at any other time. No.” “You would spend the night with Lexie.” “Yeah, we never had sex though. When I went to Chicago we kissed but,” “But?” “That was it.” “When did she threaten to burn you?” “When I went to Chicago.” “After you kissed her, or?” “Yeah. I was like going towards her. She was ______. And I was going towards her, just touching her, you know, like. That’s when she said she’ll burn me.” “That’s when she said she’ll burn you,” I repeated. Alisha continued, “Touching her on her face, telling her how pretty she was.” “Is she the only one you tried to get romantically involved with?” “Yeah.” “Do you think you want to have a romantic relationship when you get out of here?” “I’d like to get my health problems taken care of, and then have a romantic relationship with someone. I was hoping I could go to Chicago and find Lexie and Donna and start a life over again with them. I wouldn’t mind doing that.” The manifestation of Alisha’s struggles. I asked, “When did you first get put on medications?” “In 2001.” “Okay, what was going on then?” “Um, I had went, I had got sick. I had um, was depressed and, I mean I wasn’t really depressed, I was just staying in the house a lot and wasn’t cleaning up and was hearing voices and stuff like that. I had started hearing voices and I didn’t know what was going on.” “When did you start hearing voices?” “In 2001.” “Okay, what was that like for you?”

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“It was new. It was new. Like I said, I didn’t know what was going on.” “Sounds like it was confusing.” “Yeah.” “What did the voices say to you?” “Um, they was saying bad stuff.” “Bad stuff,” I repeated. “Yeah, like they’ll set my couch on fire. They could set my couch on fire. There was this guy in the neighborhood. He was a bad guy. Didn’t nobody really, um, like him too much because he was a mean person. And he had died. And he was saying that he could set my couch on fire. And I was sitting in the house one day and he said that. And I went outside because I didn’t know how to react to it.” “Hearing the voice of a dead man saying he was going to, he could set your couch on fire.” I repeated. “Mm-hmmm.” We can see how Alisha struggles with SOP. She hears voices that are not there, including the voice of a dead neighbor. I continued, “So he was one of the voices. Were there others?” “His sister and um, those were really. Oh my friends that I had grown up with, I heard their voices too. Saying that they were going to come pick me up one night and take me out. And I had got up and got ready and stuff and did my hair and stuff,” Alisha laughed, “and they never showed up.” “So it sounds like they were saying nice things, like –we’re going to take you out, we’re going to pick you up.” “Yeah.” “And what about the bad guy’s sister. What was her voice saying?” “I can’t remember.” “Was it also scary like what he had said.” “Yeah it was scary.” “Threatening?” “No, not really threatening.”

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“So that guy, the bad guy in your neighborhood who died, what was your relationship like with him when he was alive?” “It wasn’t good.” “Can you tell me more about it?” “Um, I actually had sex with him before he had died. Yeah. But, before, I mean after that, I was, the voices was telling me he was molesting my son or something like that. He had molested my son. After that, after I had had sex with him.” “How old were you when you had sex with him?” “I was like 22, 23.” “Okay. And, was it consensual?” “Yeah, but I didn’t want to.” “You didn’t want to. How did it end up happening?” “He just came over to my house and, um.” Alisha paused, then said, “He kind of forced his way on me but,” “I’m so sorry to hear that.” “He didn’t rape me or anything, I mean, I was, it was consensual, but I didn’t like him.” Here we see another example of rapid shifts in what Alisha is saying and no awareness of the contradiction (i.e., difficulties with SOP). First the sex was consensual and then she said she did not want to and that “he forced his way on [her].” We can see the connection between trauma and SOP difficulties; as Alisha talks about a traumatic experience, SOP difficulties manifest. “You didn’t want to have sex with him.” “Mm-mm.” “Did it only happen once?” “Mm-hmmm.” “Did you have other experiences of people having sex with you when you didn’t want to?” “Uh,” “Or other people forcing themselves on you?”

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“Um, no. Yeah there was this one guy. He forced his way on me. He used to hold me down and put hickeys on my cheek. And I didn’t like that. He forced his way on me one time, and I had poured some beer on him and he, he got off of me, but.” “How old were you when that happened?” “I was like 22, 23.” As I noted in the section on Alisha’s relationships, she has numerous experiences of sexual abuse. Here she has just described two specific incidents of sexual assault. I continued, “So, back in 2001, when you started hearing the voices, you were feeling kind of depressed, like you were having trouble cleaning and getting out of the house. What else was going on then? Were you living by yourself?” “Yeah, my son had moved in with my mom and um, uh, yeah. My son had moved in with my mom.” “How come?” “Because I couldn’t afford my bills and uh, I was getting ready to get evicted out my apartment so my mom came and got my son.” Notice that Alisha’s mother comes and gets Alisha’s son, but leaves Alisha to fend for herself. Alisha ends up homeless, and I wonder why her mother did not take her in. I reflected, “Sounds like things were really tough for you then.” “Mm-hmm. They were.” “And where was your son’s father?” “He hasn’t been around. He wasn’t there.” “Okay… So, um, in 2001, was that the first time you started to have problems psychologically in terms of feeling depressed and stuff.” “Yeah.” “Never been in therapy before then?” “No.” “And so in 2001 you started to hear voices, and then, what happened how did you end up getting medicated?” “Um, I had ended up homeless and I was living on the streets and the psych ward. I was writing the president asking him to send me some money. And the psych ward, I had wrote a letter, the last letter, and I had told the president that I’ll be sleeping at the police station if he can

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get in touch with me at the police station that would be good. And vice president Dick Cheney called me at the police station and I called my mom and told her that I was happy. And I was telling her and she didn’t believe me. And her and my aunt went to the judge and said I was having delusions and, they came and picked me up off the streets and put me in the hospital and then that’s when the psychiatrist came, asked me some questions. She said, ‘You sound like you’re schizophrenic,’ or something like that. And, that’s when they started me on medication.” Here we see another example of SOP difficulties. Alisha receives a phone call from Dick Cheney. Dick Cheney is not there on the other end of the phone, and yet he appears there and is really there for Alisha. I continued, “And, how long did you stay in the hospital?” “I was there for like a month. Maybe not even that long.” Current voices. I asked, “Do you still hear voices?” Alisha nodded yes in response. “When do you hear voices?” “Whenever I talk to ‘em. Or they talk to me.” “So have you heard any today?” “I can’t remember.” “In the last week have you heard any?” “Yeah.” “Whose voices do you hear?” “Uh, I hear my mom’s voice, uh. Anybody.” “Anybody?” “Some people.” “People from your life?” “Yeah.” “And what do they say to you? What does your mom say to you?” “It used to be bad stuff when I was on uh, when I was on uh, Invega. She used to say bad stuff.” “Like what?” “I can’t remember. But she don’t really say too much no more. I don’t really hear it too much no more like I used to. But some medications can make them bad.”

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“Yeah. I’m wondering if you feel them at certain times, like maybe when you’re feeling a certain way you’re more likely to hear them.” “Like at night or something,” replied Alisha. “At night.” I repeated. “Yeah. I tune em out until nighttime or something, I’m just laying there getting ready to go to sleep I can hear it. But I don’t really try to listen to voices too much.” “Do they say nice things or mean things?” “Nice.” “Oh they’re saying nice things now.” “They say nice and mean stuff sometimes. But lately it hadn’t been the same [mumbles] I mean just regular conversations. Like what I’m going through that day or something.” “So they’ll comment on what you’re going through?” “Yeah. Like even a personal relationship.” “Like even a personal relation- so it’s like you have a personal relationship with them?” Alisha nodded yes in response. “Does it feel like they understand you?” “No.” “They don’t understand you.” “No.” “When you say personal relationship, what kind of personal relationship?” “Like with this girl I caught myself liking, but I don’t think she likes me. And she’s the pretty type of girl. I could see myself living my life as man for her, but, I don’t want to do that.” “She’s, is she a patient here?” I asked. I was expecting Alisha to say yes. Her next response surprised me. “No, Beyonce.” “Beyonce, okay,” I repeated. “But I don’t want to live my life as a man for no one, so. Like I said, I think I’m the other type of lesbian.” Alisha experiences real relationships with the voices who appear in her head. While she knows the voices are in her head, her struggles with SOP are such that she feels she has real relationships with these voices. Beyonce, the famous singer, appears and is real to Alisha. We

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also see SOP difficulties and confusion again around Alisha’s gender. First Alisha could see herself living her life as a man for Beyonce, then she says she does not want to live her life as a man for anyone. I continued, “You feel like a woman in a woman’s body.” “Yeah.” “You’re not like a man stuck in a woman’s body.” “Yeah.” “You’re just a woman who likes women,” I offered. “Yeah. One woman.” “One woman,” I repeated. I was surprised because Alisha had talked about being attracted to Lexie and then here when she said she was “liking” Beyonce, I assumed she meant she was attracted to Beyonce. Alisha continued, “Yeah. The only one I’m attracted to.” “The only one you’re attracted to is-?” “Lexie.” “Lexie,” I repeated. “Yeah.” My confusion is a reflection of Alisha’s rapid shifting and contradiction without any awareness (i.e., SOP difficulties). First Alisha talked about “liking” Beyonce, Beyonce being “the pretty type of girl,” and living her life as a man for Beyonce, all strongly suggesting that she was attracted to Beyonce. Previously, Alisha had talked about being attracted to Lexie. Thus, my suggestion that Alisha liked women (plural) seemed reasonable, given that she had mentioned two women. Alisha’s switch to only being attracted to “one woman” (Lexie) conflicts with what she just said about Beyonce, but Alisha gives no indication of noticing this inconsistency. I continued, “I wonder why the voices seem to come around at night.” “Because that’s when I tune them in,” replied Alisha. “How do you feel at night?” “Sometimes I just be like, I’ll go to my room and listen to the voices or go talk to someone in my head, or.” “How do you decide to do that, what’s that like for you?”

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“Something just comes over me. I get bored. And I want to talk to someone up there,” said Alisha as she pointed to her head. “You want to talk to someone up there as opposed to out here? When you’re feeling bored would you want to talk to someone out here?” “Yeah.” “So how come you talk to someone up here instead of out here?” I asked. “Because they’re not around me. The person that I want to talk to.” “The one person, is there anyone in particular that you want to talk to?” “No, not right now,” replied Alisha. “So if I’m hearing you it’s sort of like, you want, you’re bored, you’d like to talk someone but there’s no one around to talk to.” “No, not that it’s no one around to talk to me, it’s just that the person I want to talk to is not around me. Or they don’t answer the phone or something like that.” “By the person, is it someone specific?” I asked. “No. I haven’t been feeling like talking to no one lately.” “Who have you felt like talking to in the past?” “Uh, Beyonce.” “So since Beyonce isn’t around and you can’t reach her, you’d prefer to talk to someone in your head?” “I talk to her in my head.” “Oh, okay. What are those conversations like? “They’re good.” Neither physical presence nor actual phone connections are necessary for Alisha to converse with the person she wants to talk to. When she wants to talk to someone who is not available, she simply talks to him or her in her head. In terms of SOP difficulties, for Alisha, people come and go and speaking with them in her head seems just as satisfying, if not more satisfying than a conversation in reality. In the third interview we discussed Alisha’s experiences with hearing voices. I started by asking more about the voices she first heard in 2001. I said, “Ok. Um, and then you said the voices were uh saying, at one point voices were saying that that bad guy was molesting your son?”

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“Yeah.” “Yeah. What were, whose voices were those?” “Um, I can’t remember.” “Were they familiar?” “No, I can’t remember. I- I hear a voice of a guy and, um, I don’t know who he is. But, he says stuff like, he says stuff like, um, ‘One day we’re gonna transform.’ And, uh, I’m gonna be a guy and my mom’s gonna be a guy, and my dad’s gonna be a girl. And.” “When do you hear his voice? This guy’s voice?” “I hear it a lot. I used to hear more but,” “When did you start hearing it?” I asked. “Uh, when I first started hearing voices. That was one of the voices I heard.” “Oh, ok. Saying that you’re going to transform and uh, and do you still hear it occasionally?” “Mm-hmmm.” “When’s the last time you heard it?” “Could’ve been yesterday.” “Ok. And how do you feel when you hear that voice?” “I feel alright.” “How do you feel about what he’s saying?” “I feel alright.” “Can you tell me more about the idea of you changing- you and your mom changing into men and your dad changing into a woman?” “Uh, not just us, but a lot of people,” replied Alisha. “Like would I change into a man?” “I don’t know.” “Oh, ok. Does it talk about a lot of specific people, the voice?” “People that are in my life.” “Oh, ok. So who else does it mention?” “Like, my brothers and my sisters. My aunts and uncles.” “What would it be like if everyone changed?” I asked. “Well everyone’s not changing, just some people.”

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“Yeah, if those people changed,” I repeated. “Uh, what would it be like?” “Mm-hmmm,” I said. “It would be exciting.” “What would be exciting about it?” “I wouldn’t mind being a man. Seem like everybody’d be happy. And my son too.” Later on in the interview I continued, “You’re excited?” “It doesn’t matter to me either way it goes. I mean, I could stay a woman or a man, but it’s just, like, with Beyonce there it’s like I’d change to a man.” “With Beyonce you’d change to a man?” “Mm-hmmm,” confirmed Alisha. “You would change to a man?” “Mm-hmmm. And I haven’t found a man that, that loves me and that I talk to cause like I said, I can hear anybody’s voice in my head and, it can hear me, but there’s no man that I talk to. Or that I feel like loves me or anything like that.” “But there are women that you talk to.” “Yeah.” “And those are” “Beyonce, just Beyonce.” “Just Beyonce, ok. So when you imagine your future, do you see yourself as a man or a woman, or both or? What’s that like?” “It’s like I know I’m gonna be a man,” Alisha laughed. “You’re laughing. What are you laughing about?” “I’m just happy.” “What are you happy about?” “That something like that could happen.” “Something like?” I asked. “Me changing to a man.” “Uh huh. How would that happen? You changing?” “They said we was going to transform one day.”

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“Uh huh. And so if you transformed into a man one day, would you stay a man, or do you think you might transform back again?” I asked. “I would stay a man.” Alisha is excited about the prospect of seeing herself and many of the people she knows “transform.” For Alisha, people suddenly changing gender seems like a real possibility, which speaks to the disruptions in her development of SOP. While changes in gender could be considered disruptions in self-other constancy, as people are changing but not disappearing or appearing, gender is too significant a component of a person’s identity to consider this a difficulty with constancy. Changing gender essentially changes the person. I would argue that it is as if a new person has appeared. Thus, I submit that Alisha’s experiencing gender as changeable is a manifestation of SOP difficulties. Earlier, Alisha made it clear that she would not want to live her life as a man for someone else. Now she not only says “I wouldn’t mind being a man” but also, “with Beyonce there it’s like I’d change to a man.” Her contradiction without any awareness of this shift is another example of her SOP difficulties. Elsewhere in the third interview, I asked Alisha more about the people she talked to in her mind. I asked, “Ok. Um, who else do you- so you hear- talk to your son and you talk to Beyonce, you talk to- ?” “My mom.” “Your mom. What do you talk about with your mom?” “Uh, she basically wants for me to live my life as a man.” “Mm-hmmm. So what does she say to you?” “Uh, she just- she doesn’t say too much she’s just like reactions.” “Can you give me an example?” I asked. “Um, like, if I do a certain thing or say a certain thing, she- I can feel her reaction.” “Can you remember a specific thing you did or said that?” “Mm-mm.” “Ok. What kind of reaction does she have?” “Like she wants me to live my life as a man,” repeated Alisha. “Mm-hmm. So what does that look like, can you run me through that?” Alisha explained, “Uh, if I did something girly or something like that, she would- I could feel her reaction. Like she doesn’t like it.”

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“Ok. How do you know she doesn’t like it?” “Cause I can feel her reaction, she just like, numbs up.” “She numbs up?” I repeated. “Mm-hmmm.” “What does- tell me more about that.” “She just like, she pauses.” Alisha says clearly that the mother in her head “wants me to live my life as a man” and does not like it when Alisha acts like a girl. Alisha is expressing her ambivalence and confusion around her gender identity through this internal representation of her mother. I continued, “She pauses and then?” “Give me time to change my expression.” “And, so she cons- what is she doing that she pauses from?” “Like, I can’t really describe it. Like if me and Beyonce is talking or something like that, and um, like I say I can’t be with you or something, she pauses. I can feel it.” “Who pauses?” “My mom.” “So you’ll be talking to Beyonce and you’ll say, ‘I can’t be with you.’ And your mom will pause. What has she been doing that she pauses from?” “Just listening.” “Is it like she disappears?” “No.” “Oh.” “She doesn’t disappear. She’s just like, pauses up. She just like, it’s hard to explain.” “Yeah, I’m having trouble. Yeah. How someone pauses. I believe that it’s happening, I’m just trying to figure out what that’s like for someone to pause when listening.” “She’s just like listening, then she’s just like, you know” “You took a breath like ‘huh!’ Is that something she would do? Make some sort of a-” “No she wouldn’t make a noise, she would just pause up. I mean I can feel her, you know, like she’s breathing and everything and then she’s just like, listening. Sort of, type thing.” “So you can feel her breathing, and can you see her too?” “Yeah.”

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“Ok. So when you’re having the conversation with Beyonce, can you see Beyonce?” “Yeah.” “What’s that like for you?” “I like it.” “So you like it. Is it, can you help me understand more what the experience of talking to them and seeing them is like?” “I mean, I can’t really see em-see em, it’s just like an image, cause I can hear her voice and, stuff like that.” “So you hear the voice and there’s an image that goes with it?” “Yeah.” “But it’s not like you’re seeing them?” “Right.” “Ok. And when these conversations start and stop, what’s that like?” I asked. “Well I really, we really don’t talk like we used to. But, I mean, cause I have, I mean, we talk, like I tell her I love her, whatever. If I see a picture of her I tell her I love her. But that’s about it. We don’t really talk as much as we used to.” “Beyonce doesn’t respond?” “She does.” “Ok.” “She says she loves me too,” explained Alisha. “And, so you’ll see a picture of her and you’ll tell her you love her and she’ll say, I love you too?” “Mm-hmmm.” “Ok, um, does she ever initiate the conversations?” “Yeah.” “So what’s that like?” I asked. “Um, it’s okay. She’ll just say something, like out of the blue sometimes.” “Out of the blue?” “Yeah.” Alisha laughed and continued, “Just say, she’ll just say something like, just I don’t—just I mean we don’t really conversate-conversate. You know, we just say little things. And that’s it.”

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“So she’ll, out of the blue, say something and then, what happens when the conversation is over?” “It’s just over.” “Where does- ?” “Usually I just fall asleep or something like that,” explained Alisha. “And where does she go, does she stay there, does she disappear? What happens after the conversation is over?” “Uh, it’s just blank in my head. She’s not there no more. She’s still there, she can still probably hear me but, it’s not like, like now she- she probably can’t. I mean she probably can’t hear me now because I’m talking out loud. She probably can. I don’t know.” “She probably can?” “Yeah, she probably can, I don’t know.” “But do you feel her present right now?” “Mm-mm.” “Okay, so if, is it sort of like she’s here and then she’s gone?” “Mm-hmmm,” agreed Alisha. “Ok. And what’s it like for the other voices?” “Same.” “They just come and go?” I asked. “Mm-hmmm,” agreed Alisha. We see how Alisha’s sense of other permanence is fluid. Beyonce will say something “out of the blue” and then after their conversation, “it’s just blank” in Alisha’s head and Beyonce is “not there no more.” Beyonce and other people come and go. When they appear, they are real there for Alisha. I asked, “How do- so if you were to compare, what you feel talking to say someone who is not in your head?” “The same.” “Ok, no different.” “Mm-hmmm.” “Do you feel any more or less comfortable talking to someone when they’re in your head versus outside?”

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Alisha responded by shaking her head no. Alisha makes it clear that, for her, the voices in her head are just as real as the flesh and blood people she encounters. This speaks to the extent of her difficulties with SOP and the impoverishment of her relationships. She feels the same whether she talks with a person inside or outside her head. Later on in the third interview, Alisha reported feeling like there is something wrong with her brain. I asked, “Can you describe what it feels like to be in your shoes and have this thing wrong with your brain?” “It’s not good.” “Yeah.” “A lot of confusion. Um, depressive thoughts. It’s just not good.” “What are you confused about?” “Um, what am I confused about?” repeated Alisha. “Yeah.” Alisha replied, “Sexuality. Um,” “Is that it?” Alisha nodded yes in response. “What’s confusing about your sexuality?” I asked. “I don’t know. Because I appear like a woman, but other things are going on.” “What’s going on?” “Uh,” Alisha laughed, “I would rather live my life as a out, I would rather transform, in this life I wouldn’t – I really wouldn’t want to be a man. If we transform then that’s a different subject. That’s a different story.” Here Alisha states that she is confused about her sexuality. Based on what she says about “[appearing] like a woman” and preferring to “transform” into a man, when Alisha says she is confused about her sexuality she is referring to gender identity confusion. She is conflicted about whether she would like to become a man. Between the ages of 5 and 6, children generally develop an understanding that gender and sex are stable and fixed throughout life (Fausto- Sterling, 2012). Alisha indicates that her understanding of gender and sex being fixed was disrupted because she believes that gender and sex are changeable (i.e., it is possible she and others will transform and become the opposite sex).

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I continued, “So outwardly you’re a woman, but you’d rather live as a man. But not in this life. Can you tell me more about the transform?” “What do you want to know?” “Well you said if we transform that’s a different story. So what’s that story?” “I mean if we transform then I wouldn’t have no choice but to be a man. It’s something that God made, or whatever- whoever made it and I wouldn’t have a choice but, I like being a woman too. But, it’s like I haven’t found the right man.” I tried to follow along, “So you wouldn’t want to choose to be a man. But if you were made a man against your- you know, if someone made you a man, that would be okay.” “Yeah.” “Ok. How come you wouldn’t want to choose to be a man?” I asked. “Cause I like being a woman.” “That’s tough.” “Mm-hmmm,” agreed Alisha. “Kind of wanna be both.” Alisha corrected me, “It’s not that I kinda wanna be both it’s like I am a woman, so I have womanly traits, I guess you could say.” “Physical or or psychological- emotional what do you mean?” I asked. “Physically and emotionally.” “Ok. You say so, ‘I’m a woman I have womanly traits.’” “Mm-hmmm.” “But it’s confusing.” “Yeah,” Alisha laughed. “Is there more you were going to say about that?” I asked. “I mean, it’s just hard. It’s hard. But lately I’ve been, I don’t know if it’s the medication or what, but I’ve been feeling more feminine. I- sometimes I feel like a man, sometimes I feel like a woman. Depends on my medication.” Around the ages of 2 to 3, children begin to develop a nonverbal understanding of their own gender identity (Fausto-Sterling, 2012). The trauma Alisha experienced before the ages of 2 to 3 easily could have disrupted Alisha’s developing sense of gender identity (a part of SOP), which we see in her current confusion regarding her “sexuality” and whether she should be a

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woman or a man. Here we see how this gender identity confusion relates to SOP difficulties. Sometimes she feels like a man, and sometimes she feels like a woman. There are drastic shifts in how Alisha experiences gender, a major component of her sense of self. I continued, “So what’s it like when you feel like a woman?” “I feel- I feel wanted. Cause guys make me feel wanted. But, at the same time I feel like I don’t want them. But I still feel like a woman. Maybe I just haven’t found the right guy.” “What would happen if you found the right guy?” “I don’t know, I don’t. I don’t know. It could happen. Where is he? You know, I feel like there is no right guy.” “If there was, if you found the right guy, what would be different?” “Not too much.” “So not too much, you said if I found the right guy, you said that several times like, sounds like something would be different if you found the right guy.” “I mean, where’s he been, you know? I can hear all these people in my head, but no guy has popped up. And I could see myself being with Beyonce in this life. Because of that.” “Because no guy has popped up?” “Yeah.” “Do you see yourself with Beyonce, how do you see yourself with Beyonce?” “I could see myself marrying Beyonce. Spending the rest of my life with her.” “As a man or a woman?” I asked. “I can’t see myself being a man in this life. Maybe just as friends. Maybe we’d be just friends or something. I don’t know.” “But if you married her?” “That would probably have to happen- have to happen in the next life.” “How come?” “Right now I just couldn’t see myself being a man, in this life, living my life as a man. I can’t see myself doing that.” “But in the next life maybe?” “Mm-hmm.” Here we see two examples of a pattern where Alisha says something and then almost instantly takes it back. In the first example, she talks about finding the right guy as if that would

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change her situation and then she says that “not too much” would be different if she found the right guy. In the second example, Alisha says that she could see herself “being with Beyonce in this life,” marrying her and spending the rest of her life with her. Then she says, “Maybe we’d just be friends or something,” and that maybe in the next life they could be together. In these examples of difficulties with SOP, it is as if one part of Alisha says one thing, and then a different part comes out and does not recall what was previously said. I continued, “And what about, you said sometimes you feel like a woman and sometimes you feel like a man.” “Mm-hmmm.” “What’s it like when you feel like a man?” “I have a sense of humor. Um, it’s only a little bit. Like I used to dress like a man sometimes. Wear man cloths, and, have a good sense of humor. And that’s all I can remember about it.” “And is it- what happens, so you either feel like one or the other, or?” “Huh?” “You either feel like a woman or man? Is that how it works or?” I asked. “Uh, no, I feel like both. A woman and man. But I wore man clothes and um, recently in the last couple years, I felt more like a man when I wear man clothes.” “What’s that like?” I asked. “I don’t like it.” “What don’t you like about it?” “Because I’m a woman, and I still feel pretty and, I feel like, I feel like, I’m worth being a woman. I’m worth it. You know, just feel worthy.” “You feel worthy of being a woman.” “Yeah. Cause I still even when I dress up, when I dress like a man- in man clothes, I still feel pretty and stuff like that.” Alisha now talks about feeling like both a woman and a man. Here she does not seem to like the idea of being a man. Whereas earlier she was excited about transforming. I struggled to follow Alisha. I believe that my confusion reflects her SOP disruption. Her gender identity is fluid. Without a stable sense of gender identity, it is difficult for another person (me), to understand her experience, as that experience is constantly changing and inconsistent.

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I said, “Okay. Um, when did you know that you were attracted to women?” “Uh, when I met Beyonce.” “So when was that?” “Well, it was just like it was going on in my head- in my mind, and um, I was trying to find a man to be with for the rest of my life. And then there was something was like, what about Beyonce, and I just been attracted to her ever since.” “And so when did that start?” “Uh in like 2000, um, well I was attracted to another type of female, the uh, Lexie, remember I was tell you about her?” “Yeah.” “And um, I- I don’t know if I was attracted to her or just because she was a woman, but I used to tell her how pretty she was and stuff like that, but, uh, I never thought I could be the same type of woman she was until I met Beyonce.” “What kind of a woman was Lexie?” “She was like a- like the man in the relationship. And I was the woman. I felt real pretty with her. But it’s like, it’s not meant for me and her to be together. Because I don’t spend no time with her.” “And she said she would cut you, or burn you- burn you,” I added. “Mm-hmmm.” “Yeah. But you don’t spend any time with her,” I repeated. “Yeah.” “So, when did you realize you were attracted to Lexie?” I asked. “Uh, when I was coming up.” “So what age would that be like?” “That was like, probably 16-17.” “So that’s when you realized you were attracted to her.” “No, it was like, in I was- yeah like 16 or 17.” “Do you remember the moment when you realized you were attracted to her?” “Uh, it was just a natural thing. It came natural.” “Over time?” “Yeah.”

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Alisha was attracted to her friend Lexie. Alisha’s comment, “I don’t know if I was attracted to her or just because she was a woman” speaks to how unclear Alisha is about her sexuality. Given Alisha’s early sexual abuse, it is not surprising that sexuality and attraction are complex issues for her. I continued, “And, so before then you’d been with men. But you’d, you weren’t attracted to them or?” “Mm-mm. I mean there’s some men that I think that are cute. But I just can’t see myself being with them.” “What’s it like when you imagine yourself with a guy?” “Eh, I could see myself being with a man.” “So what do you see, what do you?” “Just sex.” “Just sex? That’s all you see?” “Uh, I mean that’s part of it but when I picture myself with a man, I mean, it’s just hard.” “What’s hard?” I asked. “It’s hard cause I don’t know, because ain’t no man been there for me.” “No man has ever been there for you?” “I mean they have, but I’m talking like now, like in my mind. And now, they just mmmm.” “It’s just Beyonce.” Alisha nodded yes in response. “So if a man popped into your mind, then maybe it’d be different?” I asked. “Not really.” “Ok.” Again, we see the SOP pattern where first Alisha says she cannot see herself being with men, and then she says she could see herself being with a man. I am still not sure what Alisha was saying, but my understanding is that she could see herself being with a man in purely sexual terms (which makes sense given that she has had sex with a number of men) but that she is not really attracted to men on a deeper emotional level. While in reality all of her relationships, other than Lexie, have been with men, in her mind, her relationships are with women. As Alisha has stated, her relationships in her mind are equivalent to her external relationships, so the

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confusion is understandable. Again, I suspect that my own confusion reflects Alisha’s confusion and the instability of her sense of self (i.e., self-permanence difficulties). Ending up in Woodside. I said, “So [after your first hospitalization in 2001] you lived with your mom, moved to the hotel, moved into your own place. How long were you in your own place?” Alisha replied, “For about 6 months.” “And then what happened?” “I moved to another apartment and I was there and then I got put in the hospital.” “Was that this time?” “No, last time. In 2005, 2004, something like that.” “Ok, is that when you quit taking your meds?” I asked. “Yeah.” “Ok. So you were with your mom, then you, and you were doing ok. You got your own place. And then you quit taking your meds and got hospitalized. How long were you in the hospital then?” “Uh, for 3 months.” “And then where did you go?” I asked. “Uh, went to a group home and moved back with my mom. And then got my own place again ___with my mom for about 2 years.” “So you had your own place with your mom then again for 2 years?” “Mm-hmmm.” “And then” “I got my own place.” “Again, uh huh. And then what happened?” “I quit taking my medication again and – back in the hospital.” “Oh, ok. And then what happened?” I asked. “Um, I just quit taking my meds and then I thought I was doing good, but I had started self medicating with marijuana again- a little bit. And um, uh, I went to court and they told me I had to start taking my meds again. And I had refused them, so they came with um, with ah, they had came to pick me up and take me to Community Mental Health.” “What happens when you don’t take your meds?”

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“I don’t know because it was the first time I had stopped taking them in some years so, but. I had stopped taking them and I thought I was doing good. My thinking was clear and, but I did start self-medicating a little bit with marijuana again. Started having the urge for it. So I guess my symptoms were coming back.” “What kind of symptoms do you get?” “Just with my thinking. That’s the only thing I can think of. Other than that everything was going good.” “Your thinking? You said you thought your thinking was clear but what happens to your thinking, if?” “I was just bored. I did it out of boredom really.” “You started smoking marijuana out of boredom?” “Yeah, out of boredom.” “You said you use it to self-medicate?” I asked. Alisha replied, “Um, I guess it was like a replacement of my medications.” “What were you using it for? Like what was it helping relieve?” I asked. “I don’t know. I did it out of boredom, so, but it was to help me think.” “Okay, it helps you think better?” “Yeah.” “And that’s- brings you up to here?” I asked. “Yeah.” Note how Alisha changes back and forth from using marijuana to self-medicate to using it out of boredom and then in one sentence, “I did it out of boredom, so, but it was to help me think.” The shifts without any sense of contradiction show difficulties with SOP. Summary. Alisha experienced a number of traumas starting from when she was very young. Her mother and father rejected her; her emotionally withdrawn grandmother raised her until she was 7 or 8 years old, when she went to live with her mother. Alisha’s mother was physically and verbally abusive. A minister sexually abused her repeatedly as a toddler and then an uncle touched her inappropriately when she was 9 years old. Alisha was sexually assaulted several times as an adult. Alisha also struggles significantly with SOP. She hears voices and has conversations with people who are not there. She is confused about her gender identity and gender fixedness in

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general (e.g., she and others will “transform” and switch genders). In our conversations, she would contradict herself without any awareness. There was one instance where Alisha talked about early trauma (feeling rejected and that she has never been understood) and SOP difficulties emerged (rapid switching without any awareness of the contradiction). The connections between Alisha’s significant early trauma and subsequent struggles with SOP are less clear and obviously direct than with other participants. As I mentioned, my interviews with Alisha were also noticeably disjointed in comparison to other participants. Unlike the others, Alisha almost never elaborated unless I asked additional questions or spontaneously directed the interview. I pointed out a few examples of how she would not offer much in response to my open-ended questions and so I would follow up with a series of yes or no questions in order to try to elicit more from Alisha. I generally felt that if I did not constantly keep asking questions, the conversation would grind to a halt. She often said “I don’t know,” “I don’t remember,” or that she did not feel anything because she was “numb.” It was almost as if there was little going on inside of Alisha that she was aware of and could offer on her own. I had to provide suggestions and laboriously draw information out of her, bit by bit. There were also several times in the interviews where I struggled to follow along with Alisha and make sense out of her experience. One way of understanding the marked differences for myself in these interviews (disorganized interview style, greater effort in terms of offering suggestions/asking specific questions, and occasional confusion) is that I was experiencing Alisha’s SOP difficulties. While I cannot point to direct connections between her early trauma and SOP difficulties, my overall experience of her was consistent with the idea that her development of a core sense of self was seriously disrupted. In other words, the trauma and consistent invalidation Alisha experienced growing up prevented her from developing a core sense of self (i.e., self-permanence). Without a core sense of self, there was no one there to feel things or form clear memories. Thus, when I asked how she felt, she did not know or could not remember. Trauma of a sexual nature occurred when Alisha should have been developing her own gender identity. The gender identity confusion she experiences now and her sense that gender is not permanent could be a result of that trauma. My own disorientation when talking to Alisha about her sense of gender might reflect the internal disorganization and lack of an enduring identity that Alisha experiences.

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In summary, Alisha experienced both significant early trauma and difficulties with SOP. While our interviews did not provide many direct examples of connections between trauma and Alisha’s struggles with SOP, the extent of her self-permanence struggles makes sense given how consistently she was invalidated and emotionally neglected as a child. Also, the age at which she was sexually abused corresponds to when she would have been developing her own sense of gender identity. Finally, my own experiences with Alisha can be understood in terms of her very tenuous sense of self. Michael Brief description. Michael is a 33 year old, heterosexual, Caucasian man. According to his chart, Michael’s primary diagnosis is schizoaffective disorder. He is also diagnosed with cannabis abuse. He was hospitalized in Woodside for attempting suicide by overdosing on pills. After Michael took the pills, someone found him and called an ambulance. Michael woke up in the intensive care unit. The hospital transferred him to the psychiatric unit from there he was admitted to Woodside. Michael had attempted suicide at least six times previously. At the time of our interviews, he had been in Woodside for over 6 months. Michael had been hospitalized two other times. The first time was from when he was 12-15 years old. He did not specify when the second hospitalization occurred. Michael is the fifth out of seven children. He has four sisters and two brothers. He is not sure which of his siblings are half siblings. Michael’s father and mother split up when he was under 2 years old. Michael’s father was an alcoholic. Michael’s mother started dating Michael’s stepdad, Jeremy, when Michael was about two and a half and then married Jeremy. Jeremy physically abused Michael. Michael’s mother and Jeremy divorced when Michael was twelve. Michael’s mom dated several men. One them, Vinnie, was particularly violent and tried to break Michael’s neck. Michael was in a car accident with his mother when he was two and a half years old. Michael was born with a congenital soft palate anomaly and had to have surgeries to correct his palate, starting when he was three. When he was 6 or 7, he and his mother were in an accident when a car hit the bus they were riding in head on. Michael’s mother broke her ankle. Michael’s mother struggled to take care of her many children and, as Michael described it, she was not very invested in her role as a mother. Michael reported that when he was 5, he was sent to live with a woman named Nancy. He was returned home after 3 weeks because he

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hurt a baby. It seemed that Michael was passed around frequently. According to his chart, caregivers physically, sexually, emotionally, and mentally abused him during his formative years. Michael described “creatures” coming and hurting him at night when he was quite young, which may be his memories of the sexual abuse. Michael lived with his uncle, aunt, and cousin from the ages of 12-16. Michael’s uncle was physically and emotionally abusive of Michael as well as Michael’s aunt and cousin. Michael’s uncle threatened to kill Michael and pointed a gun at his head several times. Michael lived with his father and grandmother briefly when he was 16. While he was working as a prep cook in a restaurant with his father, Michael was severely burned in a grease explosion. After he was released from the hospital, he went back to his father to find that his father had sold off Michael’s knife collection. Feeling betrayed, Michael went back to live with his aunt and uncle. When he was 18, he moved back in with his mother. Michael’s father was hit and killed by a truck when Michael was 17 or 18. The family did not find out about it until 3 or 4 years after the death. Michael was living on his own by the time he was 21. A friend of his killed himself in Michael’s apartment when Michael was somewhere between 21 to 23 years old. Michael was married for 6 months and then divorced in 2008. He has a son, Anthony, who is 8 years old. Michael did not learn of Anthony until Anthony was four. He has not seen his son in several years. Anthony’s mother, Diane, was in contact with Michael while he was in Woodside, but has ceased contact. Michael is on the thin side. He appeared nervous and alert with eyes wide open and looking around. He spoke quietly and was sometimes difficult to understand, due to his lack of teeth. Michael and I met for two interviews. (I provide the transcripts of our interviews in Appendix I.) He refused to meet with me for the third interview and did not explain why. There are some areas that I would have liked to know more about, but did not get to follow up on because of this. Michael was cooperative and eager during the first two interviews. He asked to stop and take breaks several times during each interview- usually when we were starting to talk about something painful or upsetting. Narrative. For Michael’s narrative, I attempted to move chronologically through his childhood and adolescence up through his current hospitalization and struggles. Michael discussed the same important people and events across and within both interviews, and so I tried

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to consolidate and integrate relevant sections of the transcript. I was not always able to consolidate. Particularly in his childhood, there were points where I felt the narrative flowed better if I circled back to events as we did in the interviews and did not force things to be chronological. I start with Michael’s family relationships and childhood. I move on to the years Michael lived with his uncle. I discuss Michael’s mother’s boyfriends. I review Michael’s psychological struggles, focusing on his experiences with “creatures” and “ghosts.” I conclude with Michael’s current difficulties. Early childhood. Michael had a chaotic and traumatic childhood. We will start with his family experiences. In the first interview after mentioning a number of difficulties Michael was having with insurance and benefits that were depressing him he said, “The only thing I have to look forward to is my mom and sister coming to visit me.” “When are they coming?” I asked. “They come every 4th of the month.” “Oh that’s nice. Um, so you have a sister, is she older or younger than you?” “Older.” “Okay. Is she your only sibling?” “No, I have four sisters and two brothers. Not by the same guy though.” “How many of them are full siblings?” I asked. “I’m not for sure.” The fact that Michael does not know how many of his siblings are full and how many are half speaks to the chaos in his family early on in his life. I asked, “So where do you fall in there?” “I’m the fifth child out of seven.” “And so, who raised you?” “Um, my mom and other people.” “Ok. Other people? Like who?” “Just people that they sent me to.” “Oh, foster people or things like that?” I asked. “Yeah, something like that,” replied Michael. “Group homes?”

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Michael nodded yes in response. Again, we get a sense of how chaotic Michael’s childhood was. He was raised by a number of people. Forming secure attachments is difficult when a child is repeatedly uprooted. I asked, “Are you close to your sister?” Michael replied, “Mm-hmm. I’m close to all my siblings.” “Okay. Do they come visit you?” “Mm-hmmm, some of them do.” “What was it like growing up?” I asked. “Fast-paced. It was always fast-paced for me.” “Uh-huh. Can you tell me a little more about what it was like to have everything be fast- paced?” “Just constantly on the go. Constantly working, on the go, moving from one place to another, and making people mad at me.” “You made people mad at you?” “I really wasn’t a rule-seeker, I really didn’t abide by the rules. I’m lucky I ain’t in prison right now.” “What do you think that was about, not seeking the rules?” I asked. Michael replied, “I just didn’t want to ob-obey them. I thought I knew everything and I was above the law, which I was because I didn’t get caught. But I always end up having to spend long-term time somewhere, so really I didn’t get away with nothing. I just didn’t have to spend time in a rough rough place. But I’ve been locked up one third of my life, so, I mean I really didn’t escape from being locked up, I just, it just, locked up in a different formality.” “Yeah. You said you made people mad at you. Who was mad at you?” I asked. “Just people, friends, family members, people that (knew) how I was. I think they all knew that I had problems, but yet, they all had reasons to be mad too, because I either screwed ‘em over, or stole something from them, or said something about ‘em, or beat up somebody that they liked.” Note Michael’s manifestation of other permanence difficulties with his family. First he says he is close with all of his siblings, and then he talks about how he “either screwed ‘em over, or stole something from them, or said something about ‘em, or beat up somebody that they

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liked.” Those actions are not consistent with close relationships and yet Michael shows no awareness of the contradiction, indicating difficulties with SOP. I started the second interview by asking, “Okay, um, so I guess I was wondering if you could tell me what your mom was like when you were little.” “Um, I would have to say unorthodox. Like she never really knew what she wanted, or, kind of like me now without the possibilities of kids. Cause my baby momma, you know, has custody of my kid. So I would say unorthodox. Like maybe she was always looking for something that wasn’t there or always looking for something more. Maybe she was just quite too young to have kids.” Immediately, Michael starts slipping back and forth between his own mother and the mother of his child. When someone struggles with SOP as Michael does, other people can come and go or merge together because their existence does not seem secure and dependable. It also seems likely that his mother’s cavalier attitude towards her children was upsetting or traumatic for Michael as when he talks about it, difficulties with SOP manifest. I asked, “What makes you say that, too young?” Michael replied, “A lot of women right out of high school and into their early twenties think they want kids, and then they have four or five kids within 6, within 4 or 5 years and then they realize, well there’s got to be something else besides having kids. And they start looking for it and you know it just causes problems between them and their kids. You know going from one person to the next and stuff like that. I kinda’ picture my mom, just a woman that was trying to find the right man to be with and never could. And, never had to this day. [laughs] And she was more worried about that then what was going on with her kids.” Michael’s description that “maybe she was always looking for something that wasn’t quite there” and she realized, “well there’s got to be something else besides having kids,” suggests that his mother was not very committed to her children. Or at least Michael’s impression is that his mother did not really want to be a mother, which in turn implies that he was not really wanted and prized. She was more worried about finding the right man than the wellbeing of her children. I asked, “Going from one person to the next, what do you mean?”

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“Well, I had one stepfather for a while. He was uh, alright, but, his name is Jeremy. From age, I’d say, age, from when I was a baby- no when I was a baby she was going out with my real dad.” Michael’s wording here is interesting. He says that, “He was alright but his name is Jeremy.” The “but” implies that he was not alright; “His name is Jeremy,” implies that the name was the reason that he was not alright. Later on, Michael will explain what was not alright about Jeremy. Michael continued, “And then maybe when I was two – two and a half, she started dating Jeremy and then they got married. And then I went to stay with a lady when I was 5. I was 6, but um, he was my stepdad all the way up until age 11 or 12. And then they got divorced. But, he was in and out of her life, and you know, my life.” I continued, “And, so, what happened when um, so when you were born, your mom was with your dad and then when you were two they split up, or what happened?” “That’s what I’m guessing, I’m not really for sure. Just he was an alcoholic and really didn’t, my mom isn’t into that, she didn’t drink. So, you know, he was a bad alcoholic.” “What do you remember about him?” “Well nothing when I was 2 cause I don’t remember anything until I was at least, well my earliest memory going back would be from 4, or 3. Earliest, uh, I remember my dad, I remember our first the earliest I can remember was him following us to a place. And Jeremy was telling my mom that if he runs into the back of his vehicle, he was going to kick his butt.” One of Michael’s earliest memories involves anger and potential violence between a caregiver and a parent. Michael laughed and continued, “So I figure my dad was drinking and driving and was following us to be with us somewhere. I remember my stepdad telling my mom, if he runs into us he was going to kick his butt. And, he didn’t run into us. But then periodically my dad was out of my life after that. But when he came back in he wasn’t an alcoholic no more. He was quit drinking.” “When did he come back into your life?” “That would’ve had to been when I was 3 or 4, say 11 or 12.”

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Michael’s father was an alcoholic who was in and out of his life. Growing up, we need consistency, and so experiencing caregivers who come and go unpredictably can interfere with the development of SOP. I redirected us, “And going back to what you said about mothers having children a lot of children really quickly and then realizing there are other things, and then it causing problems between the mom and their children.” “Yeah.” “I wonder what problems you had with your mom?” “Uh, not having good understanding. She had seven kids.” “Seven,” I repeated. “Yeah.” “Ok.” “You know, that’s a lot of kids. I was fifth. I was the first boy. And I know she, I’ve had, I had problems getting along with my mom all the way up until, I didn’t pretty much get along with nobody though. All the way up till recently, maybe 3, 4 years ago. I just realized my mom’s getting up there in age and I might as well, you know, forgive her, and just go from now until she’s not around no more. (Telling her) I love her and you know she don’t hold no grudges against me and I don’t hold no grudges against her.” “What did you have to forgive her for?” “Just for what I said earlier, you know, having a bunch of kids without, you know, without any concrete standings, like ___ just ‘Here you are, here’s the world, handle it.’ You know. At a young age I had to work and I didn’t get to go to school. I didn’t get to realize a lot of things. I had to grow up really quickly and, you know I was mistreated, tortured and so, I always blamed her but it really wasn’t her fault. I had some bad choices myself that I could’ve made. You know. I could’ve got away from my uncle a lot quicker.” Michael describes the trauma of having to face the world before he was really equipped to do so, or in other words, being abandoned. He mentions additional traumatic experiences: being mistreated and tortured. I replied, “You started living with [your uncle] when you were 10 right?” “Eleven. Ten, eleven around that time.” “Why’d you end up living with him?”

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“It was just one of the places I ended up.” “But you, you wouldn’t, they didn’t place you back with your mom?” “Yeah, I went back with my mom.” “But I’m wondering from age [11] to 18 they had you with him instead of your mom.” “Yeah.” “Do you know why they did that?” Michael replied by shaking his head no. In the second interview I asked Michael again, “How come your mom didn’t keep you from moving out? How come she didn’t ask- keep- ask you to stay with her?” This time he responded, “Cause she went back to school. And she had a house beside my aunt where my two brothers stayed at the time, when this all went down. Because my sisters were having their boyfriends over and they were breaking out the windows. And they were, doing this and doing that. So my mom stayed away from there. She didn’t bring no food in, she didn’t come back. She- they ran, my sisters and their boyfriends took over. And, they were doing whatever. They were eating the food. And I didn’t- I was going to stay there but they wouldn’t let me have none of the food. So I left and I went to stay with my aunt and uncle.” I reflected, “So when you were about 12, your mom basically abandoned you guys.” “Yeah. Well she had no choice, because I wasn’t- the school I was supposed to be going to was right across the street, which I wasn’t going because I didn’t- I wasn’t good at school and I always got in trouble at school, you know. They was more, it was less stress on me not going to school than it was going to school.” We can understand why Michael would choose to live with his uncle. His mother essentially abandoned her children after allowing her teenagers to take control. No one was providing food or supervising. Notice how Michael defended his mom by saying that “she had no choice.” If she had no choice, then he can still see her as a good mom and does not have to deal with the pain related to the ways she abandoned him. Such splitting can lead to difficulties with SOP as Michael can experience two very different mothers depending on the way he views her. Michael continued, “And uh, my sisters’ boyfriends and them was knocking out the windows and, they would uh, they would come in the morning time and talk about what they were gonna' do. They would go kill kitty cats and stuff.”

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Michael was probably also frightened by seeing his sisters behaving in such out of control and violent ways. Michael had mentioned that he was sent away at age 5 and I wanted to hear more about that. I said, “Yeah, and when you were 5 you said you, you stopped living with your mom and Jeremy. How come?” “I don’t know. I think, it was probably easier on 'em.” “Probably easier on them,” I repeated. “Yeah, to have one less kid. Which wasn’t really a good idea cause it backfired on 'em.” “What do you mean?” I asked. “Well, the lady that took me in her house to live with babysat other kids. And, I was 5 to 6 and there was little bitty infant babies around, and I beat one of 'em up. I don’t know why. I just, that was like a year after my first suicide attempt so. And, you know, even before I knew what suicide was, I attempted it. And I uh, pulled it on its ears and” We will return to Michael’s early suicide attempt later, but first I want to point out that at age 5, Michael is already angry enough to beat up little babies and to try and kill himself; this level of distress speaks to how traumatic his childhood has already been. When he is 5, Michael is sent away because “it was probably easier” on his mother and stepfather. The implication is that Michael is a burden and his family would be better off without him. I reflected, “You pulled on the baby’s ears.” “Yeah, and shoved the bottle and the pacifier in his mouth really hard. As hard as I could. And, the uh, while the baby was in its little carrier. The baby had a sister that was, I’d say approximately 5 or 6 or so. And she went up to the parents and when my mom and stepdad would get me for the weekend. And they brought me back to her house and they uh, and Nancy was her name, the lady who babysat. Told them she needed to talk to them privately. So they sent me back to the van. Cause we had a van and I was in there with my, my two brothers and my two sister and I had two sisters somewhere else, and they told her what- what I did to the baby and, so I couldn’t stay there no more. I got into trouble and I had to come back home to live with my mom and stepdad.” “Okay so you were with this other lady from ages like 5 to 6 or 7.” “Uh, I was there, I lived with her for maybe two, 3 weeks, 4 at the most.” “Oh, ok. What kind of trouble did you get into?”

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“I don’t remember really getting whooped or anything for it. I remember getting cussed at over it, but I don’t remember anything else. I was always getting whooped.” “Who would whoop you?” “My stepdad.” “How would he whoop you?” I asked. “It was, it was sometimes not that hard. Sometimes it would be really hard. Just depends.” “Do you remember, can you remember a specific instance when he whooped you?” Michael replied, “Yeah, I remember ah, I remember getting into a fight with my cousin at school and I uh, my stepdad Jeremy he whooped me really really hard and _____.” Then suddenly Michael switched to talking about a later incident: “I pulled a gun on him, ___ they were my two step brothers that, because of them I didn’t shoot and kill him because I didn’t want them to know me as the person who took their dad’s life. So I didn’t shoot him but I beat him up real bad.” “How old were you when you beat him up?” “Oh that happened, um 6 years ago.” First of all, Michael’s stepfather, Jeremy, was physically abusive. Now we understand what was not “alright” with Jeremy. Living with a violent caregiver is traumatic, as the person who one depends on for survival is also a source of terror. Second, when Michael brings up the early physical abuse by Jeremy, he suddenly switches to an incident when he beat Jeremy up a few years ago. We can see the sudden shifts and fluidity between an experience when Michael is young and helpless and a later incident when Michael is in control and more powerful as an example of Michael’s difficulties with SOP. In one moment he speaks from a part of himself that is small and weak, and in the next moment he speaks from a part that is large and strong. Michael is not aware of the contradictory switching. I redirected us back to the earlier experience, “Oh, ok, but when you were younger and you were saying there was one time when he really beat you badly.” “Yeah.” “What happened?” I asked. “He did his, he put me over his uh, knee and then he took and put his legs over my legs and he just hit like very hard like a whole bunch of times. As hard as he could. Like, for a long

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period of time. It hurt very badly, that’s why I pulled the gun on him and was going to kill him. Because I can remember that time. But I uh, beat him up and rammed his head into the stove like 15, 20 times and he had knots all over his head. And I guess that was my payback for what he did to me then.” I tried to keep him talking about the early abuse, “How did you feel when he did that to you when you were little?” Michael explained, “Helpless, but I felt some better after I beat – beat his head into the stove.” We see Michael keeps quickly shifting between the two memories. Beating up his stepdad was “payback for what he did to me then.” Michael says he felt “helpless” as a child, “but I felt some better after I beat his head into the stove,” as if he immediately felt relief from his childhood helplessness even though the “payback” occurred about 20 years later. I would also like to point out the connection between the early trauma and SOP difficulties; as I was asking Michael about an early traumatic experience, these difficulties with SOP (i.e., fluidly shifting from child to adult) manifested in the present. “That was a lot time later. That was a long time later. But, so when you were little, I forgot you were, how old were you?” “No a little older than ah, 7 or 8.” “Okay. You felt helpless,” I repeated. “Yeah.” “Yeah. What’s the earliest whooping you remember?” “Um, earliest thing that I can remember?” “Or the earliest whooping.” “Uh, that one would be one that sticks in my mind.” In the second interview, after taking a break, Michael started up by talking about his childhood, “I use to ah, run away a lot and just like, not not care about nothing. I mean I really don’t remember ever having truly feelings about anybody. Or myself. I- I’ve always seemed to be just, not in the same boat with everybody. It’s like the world was not for me, it was not, I was born for bad stuff. I was born to see everything bad. I felt bad. I didn’t like really nothing. I didn’t really know anything other than just torment and suffering and um. You know most

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people they live, they suffer a little bit, they die. And they move on. Me, it’s like I’ve lived, I suffered, and I haven’t moved on.” Michael laughed. “You’ve lived, you’ve died?” “Not died physically, but just spiritually. I mean I’ve lived, I’ve died a million times. I mean, I mean, I’d wake up in the morning as a kid and instead of wondering about going to school or all the fun stuff, I had responsibility, and you know I had to work, I had to uh, you know. I went to school when I was little in between time of being passed around. I went to school just a little bit. And I didn’t get made fun of the first two grades. But like after that, everybody always picked on me, made fun of me. I mean, that’s been my whole life.” Michael again described his life as “just torment and suffering,” indicating how horrific the experiences he endured were. He states that he has died a million times spiritually. We can understand that experience in terms of self-permanence struggles; Michael’s self has disappeared a million times. We can also see a connection between the horror of his life and his difficulties with SOP. He associates the suffering from these early traumas with his dying a million times. Thus, the early traumas lead to his experience of discontinuity in his sense of self (i.e., dying a million times). I asked, “What did they say to you?” “They made fun of the clothes I wear. They made fun of, when we’d go to uh, uh, something called running the track, if I ran through the cone everybody would make fun of – ‘Oh, he cut the cone.’ Just stuff like that, and. Um, uh, let’s see they made fun of the clothes I wear, how I did my activities. At recess, instead of playing- I never had recess. I had to sit on the side and write sentences: ‘I will not do this. I will not do that. I will obey this. I will obey that.’ And, it was just one thing after another, and, um, all the way up until high school, I mean. Only reason I’m as smart as I am now is from all the experience of being tossed out into the cold, you know.” I asked, “Can you tell me more about that. Yeah, you said you got passed around and tossed out in the cold.” Michael explained, “It started ever since I was little all the way up till now.” “Ok,” I replied. “I mean I’m still being left out and tossed into the cold. I mean it started and it hasn’t ended yet. That’s why I have over 13, 14 suicide attempts under my belt. And, and, I try to see

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the good and say okay this is getting better. But I don’t, I don’t, my heart’s a stone man. And I don’t see anybody breaking it.” We see how Michael has felt “tossed out into the cold,” or abandoned and left to fend for himself repeatedly ever since he can remember. He still feels unsupported and abandoned. I repeated, “Your heart’s a stone.” “Yeah, I don’t see anybody breaking it. And the only thing that keeps me alive to this day is, you know, I don’t want to hurt nobody else, and. I have a big family and I don’t want them hurt because of my- but then I have to think, well I’m I’m going to be in my coffin alone. I mean it ain’t like if I die they have to die. I mean, so it bugs me to know if I die that they will be hurt, but at the same time, I don’t know if that’s enough to stop me from, you know, my next suicide attempt.” We can see that Michael has a sense of self versus other. He says, “it ain’t like if I die they have to die,” indicating that he experiences himself as separate and distinct from his family members. His dying would not determine whether they will continue to live or die. I replied, “Yeah. And you said you’ve been tossed in the cold so many times and you’re still being tossed in the cold. What’s your earliest memory of being tossed in the cold?” “I felt that way ever since, um, ah, my earliest, well it would be hard to find because it had to be way back when I was a little kid. But I can’t pinpoint what age or what time. Um, I felt that way whenever I would be sent off. So the lady, Nancy was her name, whenever she took me under her wing and got me into school and I ended up hurting that little baby. And, that’s probably the first time I felt like I was tossed out in the cold.” “What lead to you feeling tossed out in the cold?” “I don’t know, just not being around my family and my brothers and sisters, and.” I continued, “How did you understand your mother throwing you out in the cold or leaving you with Nancy?” Michael replied, “Well it- I – I – I liked it all – all up to where she want- made me eat things I didn’t like to eat.” “Nancy did?” I asked. “Yeah. See before, if we didn’t want to eat, we didn’t have to. We ate whatever right out of an icebox. [laughs] With her it was the same time, every day, in my high chair. You know….”

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Prior to being sent to Nancy at age 5, Michael was free to eat or not eat. He ate whatever he wanted “right out of an icebox.” We can see that he was abandoned (e.g., not properly or regularly fed) before he was abandoned by being sent to Nancy. Michael continued, “I don’t know, I didn’t feel like I was thrown out in the cold then. But, I didn’t understand why either, I just,” Here we see SOP difficulties. First Michael said that being sent to Nancy was the first time he felt tossed out in the cold. Then he says he did not feel like he was thrown out in the cold. Michael is unaware of the contradiction as different parts of him feel differently about being abandoned. When one part comes out, he felt tossed out in the cold. When another comes out, he did not. We also see how the early trauma of being abandoned is connected to Michael’s SOP difficulties. As he talks about being tossed out in the cold, SOP struggles emerge in the present. I continued, “You didn’t understand what?” “Uh, why I had to stay with her and people lying on me and stuff.” “Lied on you, what do you mean?” “Well, they, they said that I was, that I did, that I said to the people she was babysitting that I didn’t have to do this because I uh, I didn’t have to uh do what, I could do whatever I want because I stay here and y’all just get babysat here. And whenever they said, people started lying on me, that’s when I did that to that baby. Cause I was mad.” “What were you mad about?” “Cause I got a whooping, because the people were saying that I said, ‘Because I lived there I didn’t have to do what they told me.’” “And who had given you the whooping?” “Nancy.” “Oh. What did she do?” “Just whooped me for no reason. And just because one of the parents of the kids said she heard me say I didn’t have to mind because I live here. And I didn’t even say that. Cause I didn’t want to live there no more, so I hurt the baby. And I made sure the baby’s sister seen it so she would tell.” We see another example of Michael’s SOP difficulties as, without any awareness, he switches explanations for why he hurt the baby. Earlier, Michael had said that he did not know why he hurt the baby. Here he explains that he hurt the baby because he was mad that Nancy

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“whooped” him for something he did not say, and then because he did not want to continue living with Nancy. Life with his uncle. After one of our breaks in the first interview, before I could ask a question Michael started talking about his marijuana use. He said, “Drug of choice, well, my uncle and me, which I lived with my uncle for about 6 years, from age 12 to age 18. Bout 6 years. And he used to wake me up in the morning and get me stoned on weed and then he’d get shitty at me and beat me up. And uh, when I was 12 years old I was going to school and it was time for lunch and it was pizza day. And I didn’t want to wait in line, so I took off running towards the cafeteria and I fell and hit the marble floor and knocked out my front tooth. I cracked it right up the gum line. And I had to go home and my uncle said, ‘Here, hit this.’ That’s one of the first times of getting high. He said, ‘It will help you with the pain.’ And I hit the joint, that’s like what it was, it was a joint, and the room started spinning.” Michael laughed and continued, “And uh, it’s not funny but, the rooms, and my pain went away and the next day I went to a dentist and they did a root canal, which was very painful.” “Yeah.” “And uh, anyways, so I started, my uncle started getting me high every day, and so marijuana became my drug of choice. And I’ve been clean since last Thanksgiving. So I have some clean time under my belt. Will I go back to using? I don’t know. Something inside says (go) and something inside says I won’t. I, I just don’t know. It soothes me, it helps me deal with my problems.” “Mm-hmm. Helps you deal with your problems?” I repeated. “Yeah.” “How does it help?” I asked. “It just relaxes me, it doesn’t make me feel uptight. I’ve been using for a long time too though, ever since I was 12.” “Yeah, you’ve had problems for a long time.” Michael nodded yes in response. “You mentioned in there that your uncle used to beat you up.” “Oh yeah, used to torture me, physically, mentally. Not sexually though, but thank god. But mentally and physically, until a point it where it got to where I could beat him up and then he didn’t want nothing to do with me anymore and I moved on.”

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“Oh. So you were living with him and he was torturing you,” I said. “Yeah.” “If you’re able to, could you tell me a little more about what happened?” “He would just wake me up, wake me up and be mad at me and holler and cuss and scream. And I was working prep cook and I would work all night and he’d wake me up first thing in the morning hollering, cussing, screaming, wantin’ to fight and, and, to where it got to a point where I would beat him up, and then he didn’t want me to live with him no more.” Notice that when I ask Michael about his uncle abusing him, twice he adds in that eventually he could beat up his uncle and the abuse stopped. This is similar to what we saw earlier, where Michael moved fluidly between the worst beating his stepdad gave him and a later incident where he beat up his stepdad. “Mm-hmmm. So he would holler and cuss at you. Would he call you names?” “Yeah, ever since I was twelve to age 18. He would hit me, holler, cuss, scream, point guns at me.” “Did he threaten to kill you?” I asked. “Yeah,” replied Michael. “That must have been scary.” Michael responded by nodding yes. “Yeah,” I reflected. I asked, “Did your aunt know about what your uncle was doing?” “He was doing that to, his son and her, so.” “Oh, ok.” “They’re still together, I mean I guess everybody forgave everybody. I don’t know.” “And when he’d physically abuse you, what did he do?” I asked. “Just hit me, and holler and cuss and point guns. Sometimes he would take, he’d take spiders that he’d found, spiders, and let ‘em bite me. And then I had to go to the hospital and get venom put in me.” From approximately the age of 10 to 16 or 18 (Michael was not always consistent on the ages) Michael lived with an uncle who “tortured” him with physical and emotional abuse. Michael’s uncle was also abusing Michael’s aunt and cousin, so Michael also witnessed domestic violence. Michael’s uncle even threatened to kill Michael and pointed guns at him.

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Putting spiders on Michael so that they would bite him struck me as particularly sadistic. The uncle had to go to the trouble of finding the spiders and then put them on Michael. Michael continued, “And then, I moved back with my mom, and he didn’t like that. And he came over there with a gun when she was gone, pointing it around. And I told him, I said, ‘Just shoot. Why are you being a coward about it? Shoot.’ And he did and he went back home, and I told my mom about what he did. And I guess somebody called the cops on him over it and they told him the next time he’d go to jail, and so he didn’t come back, but.” “So he shot at you?” I asked. “No.” “Oh.” Michael explained, “Someone called the cops on him and reported it and they went over there and talked to him about it. So he didn’t come back with the gun no more.” When Michael moved back with his mother to get away from his uncle, the uncle pursues him and threatens to kill him again. We get a sense of how weary Michael must have been from the ongoing threats because he tells his uncle to “Just shoot.” We also see another example of Michael’s SOP difficulties. First he says that his uncle shot the gun (“I said, “Just shoot.’ And he did”) and then when I asked Michael if his uncle shot at him, Michael said, “No.” Michael contradicts himself without any awareness. Michael’s difficulties with SOP manifest as he is talking about this traumatic experience, indicating a connection between the early trauma and SOP difficulties. Mother’s boyfriends. Michael’s mother dated many men, introducing additional instability and violence into her children’s lives. In the second interview Michael said, “She just wanted to go from one guy to the next.” I asked, “She dated a lot of guys?” “Yeah, and there was this one guy that we really hated a lot. Vinnie. He uh, he hurt animals and, we really didn’t like him, and she was kind of dating him a little bit at that time. So that’s why we all rebelled against her because we knew he liked to hurt animals.” “What did he do to animals?” “He’d kill 'em.” “Did he hurt you guys too?” I asked.

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“He- he ain’t really never- he threw me across the room once because I told him what I thought of him. He picked me up and kind of tossed me. He really didn’t throw me all the way across the room. He just picked me up off the chair and kind of threw me on the floor. It really didn’t hurt or nothing. I mean, I- I- fought him one time before that. He really, didn’t hurt me to where I needed to stay in the hospital. But he held me down and he twisted my neck a little bit. And stuck his finger in my eye. But to me that really wasn’t, hurt, to me that was just like a little roughed up. Because I was already, roughed up from everything else that you know, it was hard for anything to faze me.” Vinnie added trauma and unpredictability to Michael’s life. We can also see how desensitized to violence Michael became. He downplays being thrown across the room, having his neck twisted, and a finger stuck in his eye because he did not end up in the hospital. I repeated, “Roughed up from everything else?” “Yeah, it was hard for anything to faze me. I was fighting full grown men when I was 12. I mean, you know, I would take you on. It would not be no scared bone in me. If you was wanting to fight, I was there.” I responded, “What that boyfriend did to you sounded quite violent. He was putting his finger in your eye.” Michael continued, “Yeah he was trying to be, he was trying to be, he was trying to break my neck is what I thought he was trying to do. Cause he had my neck like this and he was very drunk at the time when he did it.” I pointed out, “He could’ve killed you.” “Yeah, he could’ve easily broke my neck. But he didn’t, he didn’t because it wasn’t- you know it wasn’t my time to go. Just like when I attempted suicide, it wasn’t my ah time to go.” It seems that the memory or talking about death upset Michael because at this point, he asked to take another break. He downplayed how close he has been to dying by saying “it wasn’t my time to go.” When we resumed after the break, I said, “Um, so I was wondering about, you mentioned how that boyfriend, the one you didn’t like, had almost broken your neck. And you said it didn’t faze you or anything because you were used to that. So you’d had much worse when you were younger.”

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“Yeah. Cause my stepdad when he would whoop me, he would throw his leg over my legs and then pa-da-da-da-da-da-da-da.” As he was explaining, Michael made a motion as if he were swatting a child laid across his lap. He continued, “You know like 20, 30 swats and he’s- sometimes he’d use a board or his hand or a belt. And, um, and I, you know and – my violence went from that to onto my brothers. I remember punching my brothers in the side of the head and stuff cause they would act crazy. And I really didn’t want ‘em to. I just wanted them to set down and, you know, I don’t even know where my mom was at or nothing. I was only maybe 12 or 13 and my brothers were 6 and 7, 7 and 8. You know, and I was being violent towards them and you know. I wish I never did it you know, but I can’t take it back. I could just hope that they’re doing good now.” Michael agreed that what happened when he was younger was worse. This speaks to how terrifying and threatening the earlier abuse from his stepfather was if it is worse than Vinnie trying to break his neck. It also makes sense that the earlier abuse would be worse because Michael was smaller, more defenseless, and more dependent on his stepfather for survival. Michael also mentions that he did not know where his mother was; she was unreliable and unavailable when he needed her. Psychological struggles. Early on in the first interview Michael said, “I’ve always had problems, even when I was a kid, with trying to kill myself so. I don’t know where my problem came from, but I always had problems in that area. Dealing with posttraumatic distress and stuff. Being schizophrenic and being depressed. One day I’ll be doing fine, I’ll do my ADL’s [Activities of Daily Living] and I’ll shave and then for a couple of days I’ll let my beard get scabby, you know and I’ll still take a shower but I don’t shave like I should. And then the next day I’m fine I’ll shave, so I don’t know.” Michael indicates that he has always had problems with trying to kill himself and dealing with posttraumatic stress. As we have seen, even as a child he was dealing with trauma. I asked, “When did all your difficulties start?” Michael replied, “At age 3 I climbed the highest toy they had at the playground and I jumped off, so I you know. And at age 3 I had my first major surgery. I was born with what you call a soft palate. That’s where bones in your neck weren’t all there and they went in and took out my tonsils and repaired my throat and um, just ah, from there, lead into something else, something else, something else.”

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I responded, “So at age 3 you climbed up on the tallest thing and you tried to kill yourself?” “Yeah.” “What was going on when you were 3 years old?” I asked. “I don’t know. I just, I was never normal. My mom told me I was never normal. I just, I don’t even think I knew what was suicide was at that age, I just did it. I mean, to be doing it.” “I wonder if you were trying to escape from something,” I offered. Michael paused before responding, “I don’t know, can we take a break?” There are several things I want to call attention to. Michael brings up his jumping off of the top of the playground equipment in the context of longstanding issues with suicide. Then he says “I just did it. I mean, to be doing it.” Perhaps it was not an early attempt. However, we will see him refer to this early incident as a suicide attempt again. Also, Michael’s mother told him that he was “never normal.” Michael being “never normal” might be an explanation for why he tried to kill himself at age three. Another possibility is that his mother telling him that he was “never normal” was traumatic. This interpretation seems more plausible given that Michael brought it up in response to my question of what was going on when he was 3 and that telling a child he was “never normal” is a hurtful thing to say. Finally, I want to point out how as soon as I suggested that there might have been something that Michael was trying to escape from, a not unreasonable suggestion given that young children usually do not think about suicide unless their living situations are terrible and that he already mentioned posttraumatic stress, Michael asked to take a break. We had been talking for less than five minutes at this point. As I mentioned, throughout the interviews Michael asked to take breaks when we talked about something that was painful or potentially upsetting. Later in the first interview, Michael referenced this incident as a suicide attempt again, saying, “I’ve had suicide, like I said my first suicide (idea) was when I was 3. And I’m 33 now, and um, it has probably been over a half-dozen suicide attempts between now and then. So, most likely if my luck doesn’t change, there will be another. It’s just the way it goes, I mean. I don’t like it.” At the end of the first interview I asked Michael about the early suicide attempt again, “I guess I’m wondering about, why, what would make a 3 year old want to throw themselves off of a playground?”

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Michael replied, “I just climbed up there, and my sister was like ‘______jump off’ She said, ‘No you’re not.’ And I said, ‘Yeah I am.’ And I jumped. And I closed my eyes and I landed in a big pile of sand. And I laid there for a minute. Got up, shook it off, and went on.” Michael paused and then said, “And I got, you know where Dansville Hospital is?” “No I don’t.” “You ain’t never been to Dansville?” “No. “I had a suicide attempt there too.” Michael says, he had a suicide attempt there too. He associates the incident when he was 3 with a later suicide attempt, indicating that he also views it as a suicide attempt. Early in the first interview I asked Michael, “When was the first time you were ever hospitalized?” “When I was 12.” “Okay, what happened then?” “I was in a place called Community Mental Health, where they keep children under age 18, just that, attempt suicide and have problems with uh, rules and stuff. And I was in until I was 15. And I went to stay with my sister and then I went to this place, that place, this place, that place, and just, all around and,” “You’ve been in and out of places almost your whole life?” “Yeah, homes, different addresses and different hospitals. I’ve done some scary things and I’ve seen some scary things, so. Yeah. My life is pretty full of scary stuff.” Before moving on to the scary stuff, I want to make a few observations. First, we see that Michael continued to be suicidal at age 12. Again, life has to be horrific for children to attempt suicide. I also want to point out that Michael’s story does not make sense because previously he said he was with his uncle from age 10, 11, or 12 until 18. Now he is saying that he was in Community Mental Health between the ages of 12 to 15. It is possible he went back and forth between Community Mental Health and his uncle’s house repeatedly during this time. Otherwise we see another example of SOP difficulties, as Michael has multiple conflicting narratives for his life and is unaware of the inconsistency. Creatures and Ghosts. In the second interview I tried asking Michael about his earliest suicide attempt again. Perhaps he felt more comfortable, because this time he shared more with

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me. I said, “What were some, well, I’m wondering what, what was so bad when you were 3 or 4 that you wanted to die?” Andrew replied, “Well, I use- I used to see creatures. I was not expecting that answer, so I repeated, “See creatures?” “Yeah.” “Tell me more about that.” “Um, we would walk by the uh, the church and there’s a creature that would look out the window late at night when we walked out to church there was a creature. And, late at night my legs would hurt real bad and I’d get up in the middle of the night and everybody would be asleep and, um. I remember this, it was like this creature would take me and, take me to a different place and we would fall. After, after he was done with me I would fall from a high distance and land in my bed again. And um, uh, that’s probably why I wanted to jump. I narrowed it down. The only- the only explanation I believe it could be was somebody who was wearing a mask was coming to my crib and was, taking me and doing bad things to me and then throwing me up in the air and letting me land in the crib. And then that’s why my legs would hurt. And then they would leave the bar down so I could get out of the crib and, then they would, act like, no one was, they would act like when I was crying that they were asleep or whatever. I used to see this creature a lot when I was just a little, when I was a little.” “What did the creature look like?” “It looked like a creature, like a werewolf. It had a bald head. It had grimy teeth, big eyes. And it was pretty scary, you know what I mean.” “Yeah. When was the first time you saw that creature?” “I remember uh whenever after the first, my first memory after the car wreck when we went to stay at my grandmother, that’s when I started seeing it.” Michael was two and a half when the car wreck happened. At that age, his vocabulary and ability to express himself verbally would have been very limited. It seems plausible that what Michael describes here is the “sexual abuse by caregivers” that was noted in his chart. In particular, the phrase, “taking me and doing bad things to me” is suggestive. We might expect more vague references as the memories, while not preverbal, were formed at an age when Michael would have had neither the ability to construe nor words to describe the experience of sexual abuse.

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I continued, “Uh huh. And what happened the first time you saw it? What did it do to you?” “Uh, it’d take me. It would pick me up and take me with it. And it would hurt- hurt- bend my legs, like bend my legs where they were sore. Like imagine something grabbing your leg and twisting on it the way it ain’t supposed to go. Just twisting my legs till where they were sore. And then it would, like me and the creature would fall and I would land on something soft, like either a mattress on the floor or my crib. I can’t remember exactly. And then the creature would be gone and then I would cry because my legs were hurting, but nobody would be around. It would be dark being the middle of the night.” I repeated, “Yeah. So you remember it would twist your legs in ways that they shouldn’t go.” “Yeah.” “And I’m wondering if it touched you anywhere else?” “I can’t remember. I just remember when it was hurting me.” Notice, Michael says he does not remember whether the creature touched him anywhere else; he does not refute the possibility. Michael continued, “I talked to a counselor at Recovery Services about it and he said sounds like somebody had a mask on and was doing bad things to me. I don’t know if it was uh that, or just, a creature that lived in the house. You know how some houses have bad (homes/gnomes?) to ‘em. Like somebody died in there and they have creatures.” “Like ghosts?” “Ghosts yeah. Or if uh, my experiences during the day with my stepdad and people arguing and fighting was making my dreams irregular. It could’ve been either one of those. It could’ve been made up- I could’ve made it up. But what was real to me was the pain.” “The pain,” I repeated. “The pain was real and um, continuous of doing it over and over was real. And whether it was made up, whether it happened, but the pain was real. I mean, I couldn’t make that up. I mean.” A previous counselor suggested to Michael that the creature was really a person in a mask doing bad things or that Michael was so disturbed by his waking experiences with his stepdad and the violence in his family that he dreamed about the creatures. The first explanation

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seems the most likely as Michael emphasized that something really did happen to him at night (“the pain was real”). Michael made meaning out of the experience as best he could when he was little. Believing a creature came and harmed him at night would be less disturbing and threatening for young Michael than having to make sense of a caregiver betraying and harming him. We can see how these experiences affected Michael’s development of SOP as, at age 33, Michael still believes that the creature might have been real and not a human. I replied, “No. I believe you. I believe something happened to you. And you said it would do bad stuff to you.” “Yeah.” “What other bad stuff would it do?” “It would just, uh, like, just scared me a lot. I mean it just, it was like a, like it’d only come and night and it hurt me and, it would uh, hold me to where I couldn’t move. Like, hold me down and I’d be like, ‘Let go.’ You know what I mean, I felt helpless then too. I just, that’s pretty much all it did. But it twisted my legs. It would hold me down, like put a lot of weight on my stomach to where it’s hard to breath. I really can’t remember too much of it, but I know it did happen. Yeah.” “You know it did happen?” “It happened,” Michael affirmed. “Yeah.” “I mean I know it happened,” reiterated Michael. “Yeah. Mm-hmmm,” I agreed. Michael continued, “Then later in life I had a friend who committed suicide, Eric. And like, I would see uh, in the middle of the night I would see floating little lights, that would float across the room at the same spot where he uh, shot and killed himself. Because I- I didn’t move out of the place until a year later. I stayed with my girlfriend because she had a- a apartment like 3 or 4 blocks down the street. We got an apartment we got with her was for both of us, but then we broke up. And I got an apartment up the street and uh, I went to a ritual and um, I quit seeing ghosts and stuff after that. They did a ritual, and when they did that, that little flash of light kind of faded out and I didn’t see it no more. And it seemed like my life got a little bit easier, but. “But you’d been seeing that light flashing where-” “He shot and killed himself in the corner of the room like where the couch was.”

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“Ok,” I replied. “And that’s where I was seeing him. I would wake up, I’d hear a noise and I’d wake up and it’d, you know how your eyeballs adjust if you see- look right at the sun and then you look away from the sun, you know how it will block out?” “Yeah there’s those, yeah, dots,” I said. “I would see something like that, but I wasn’t looking at the sun or nothing. It would float across and then it would just disappear right there where he shot and killed himself… And um, to me ghosts are real. I mean.” Eric’s suicide elicited SOP struggles from Michael. Michael started seeing floating lights where his best friend shot himself that were not there, but to Michael they were real. Michael said, “And that’s where I was seeing him,” indicating that the lights he saw were, “him,” his friend Eric. For Michael, Eric could still appear, despite being dead. Notice that Michael also states that “to me ghosts are real,” indicating that he continues to struggle with SOP around “ghosts” appearing and disappearing. Michael had mentioned ghosts in the first interview, so I said, “Yeah, tell me more about ghosts that you’ve experience with because you mentioned that last time too.” “I’m trying to remember some other times. I know there is. There was a bunch of times, I know people on the street. Knew me- would uh, ask me if I was still ghost-hunting and ask me you know, if I’ve seen any ghosts today. Because I would get these things in the mail- ‘Have you Seen Me?’ ‘Have You Seen So and So?’ And I swear to god, I would get those in the mail and the people on there would be somebody I ran into within a week or so before I got it or a week or so after I got it. And it was, it didn’t matter if it was a kid, a woman, a man. It didn’t matter. And I had, and some of those people we know for 100%, some of those people are probably dead.” Michael describes another experience with SOP difficulties. People who are dead or missing appear to him on the street and he believes he is really seeing them. Michael continued, “But before I got sent here, I did, I went to that ritual and it helped me out because like, you know how you gotta' share rooms here sometimes.” “Yeah.” “I couldn’t even share a room with nobody. If I woke up in the middle of the night and you was over there snoring or you was over there and I looked over there, I wouldn’t see you or

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hear you. I would see a ghost or something evil and hear something evil. I don’t know if it was the medicine I was on, if something was playing tricks on me or what it was, but” “What would you see?” “Like you smiling at me, but you’re sleeping. You’d be like [closes eyes and grins] and it would really look evil,” Michael laughed. “Oh, ok.” “Cause it was pretty, it was bad.” “Yeah. And you said you would hear something evil?” “Yeah, like, when instead of somebody snoring, to me it sounded like they were growling. Like a- like a mad wolf growl.” Michael describes another experience with SOP difficulties. His roommate would essentially disappear and become someone else (“I wouldn’t see you or hear you”). Later on in the second interview, I asked Michael to tell me about his first time seeing ghosts. Michael described going to a funeral and seeing the same person who was in the casket walking around. I asked, “And when you saw the ghost at the church, how old were you?” Michael replied, “I was about, oh, I can’t remember exactly. I’d say in between, 3 and 4, 4 and 5, somewhere around in there. But just barely old enough to talk.” “Ok. Mm-hmmm.” Michael continued, “And um, but, I- I- I’ve been haunted for a while. But you know. I’ve gotten over it. I haven’t been haunted in a long time. I mean I don’t see stuff no more. I’d like to believe I’m on the right medicine and I’m right with god and I don’t, when you and me are done talking about, I won’t even go and talk to nobody else about it. Because the more you talk about it, the more you open yourself for it. You know what I mean?” “For being haunted?” I asked. Michael replied, “Yeah cause if you dwell on something, it becomes reality. Just cause you’re dwelling on it.” Here we see two examples of Michael’s difficulties with SOP. In the first example, Michael says, “the more you talk about it, the more you open yourself for it,” implying that by focusing his attention on something, it becomes real. In other words, when Michael’s mind is on something, it is reality. When his mind is off of it, it disappears. We can see how he struggles

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with permanence as the existence of things depends on his attention. For Michael, having something be out of sight, out of mind may mean that it no longer exists. In the second example, Michael said, “I’ve been haunted for a while,” indicating that the haunting started a long time ago and continues through the present. Then he says, “I’ve gotten over it. I haven’t been haunted in a long time,” suggesting that the haunting ended a while ago. His experience of being haunted shifts rapidly and Michael shows no awareness of the contradiction. At this point in the interview Michael asked to take another break. Given what he just said about “the more you talk about it, the more you open yourself for it,” we can understand why he would want to take a break here. For Michael, talking about ghosts makes it more likely that he is going to be haunted again. It also seems possible that talking about trauma would open Michael up to being haunted (i.e., SOP difficulties). Michael came back from this break and continued the second interview. We do not know what was going on inside him right before he took the breaks or what happened after our second interview. Perhaps digging into his experiences with creatures lead to Michael experiencing more disturbing or severe difficulties with SOP again (e.g., seeing ghosts or other things) and that is why he declined the third interview. Unfortunately, we will never know. We do know that talking about his childhood was upsetting for Michael because not far into the first interview, after coming back from our second break, Michael suggested he and I create a no suicide contract, “because talking to you is going to dig up old feelings and it’s already had. When I was going to get my pop I was like, ‘Gee, I hope she doesn’t think I’m going to commit suicide soon!’” Michael laughed. Current difficulties. Suicidal ideation is an ongoing issue for Michael. We could also see Michael’s difficulties with SOP in the way he talked about suicide. Near the beginning of the first interview, Michael said, “Basically I’ve had problems ever since I was little and they didn’t go away they got worse. I’ve been in the hospital three times now. I’ve been in the hospital down where I lived. And (it) doesn’t seem to get any better. And to this day I have thoughts of suicide, but you know I haven’t acted on one in a long time. It’s my anniversary of not acting on one is coming around and I’m pretty sure I’ll act on it.” “You will act on it?” Michael nodded yes in response. “You’re going to try to kill yourself?”

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Michael nodded yes again. “When is that?” I asked. “Pretty soon. Nothing seems to be goin for, nothing seems to be going my way, so. I know it won’t be today or this month or next month, I don’t know.” “Next month maybe?” I asked. “Yeah… I’m not in any danger as of soon.” A few minutes after saying that there is a high likelihood he will attempt suicide again, Michael was talking about getting some things straightened out with his money and said, “And try to do it the right way and I’m going to try not to commit suicide. I’m going to try to get going in my treatment planning and probably get out of here by August. That’s my plan anyways.” This shift from saying he is going to attempt suicide to not going to attempt suicide with no sense of contradiction is an example of self-permanence struggles. Later on in the first interview, Michael talked about how he feels after attempting suicide. He explained, “The feeling of life after suicide is more better than the day to day feelings that a normal person gets. Like after you attempt suicide and you live through it, the feeling of life is greater. And it’s just, then the feeling of same-old normal stuff.” “So after you’ve tried to kill yourself, life feels more,” “I guess more brighter, it’s more, like I got a new body, you know to live through.” “A new body to live through?” “Yeah.” “You feel like a new person?” I asked. “Yeah.,” agreed Michael. After surviving a suicide attempt, we can see how Michael struggles with self- permanence. His feeling “like I got a new body” or like a new person indicates that his sense of self disappears and then he becomes a new person in a new body. Relationships. In the second interview, Michael and I were talking about his situation at the hospital. Michael said, “I don’t like no one here. [laughs] I mean, that’s- that’s- my my attitude to have. I’m not here to make friends. I came here to work on my issues. But now I’m learning I have to make friends. And I have to like somebody, but I still don’t like nobody.” I asked, “What about outside of here?” “I don’t like nobody.”

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“No? Don’t like nobody?” I repeated. Michael explained, “Cause it seems like the ones that are your friends now end up being the ones that aren’t your friends. And the ones that’s not your friends then, end up being your friends now. And then it will switch again. The ones that end up being your friends now were not your friends then. So it just switches back and forth constantly. Back and forth. Like you, you’ve probably had friends that you’ve had for months and months, maybe years and they’re still your friends. That’s not how it works for me. Whoever is not my friend today, tomorrow might not- whoever is not my friend today, tomorrow might be my friend. And whoever is my friend today- backwards, you know what I’m trying to say.” “Might not be your friend tomorrow,” I offered. “Yeah.” “Uh huh. So you can’t count on.” “I can’t count on friends. Because to me, it switches back and forth. So I don’t like nobody because of that fact.” Michael describes significant instability in how he experiences friendship. People switch back and forth between being his friends and not, seemingly at random. This could be thought of as self-other constancy difficulties. However, it seems like for Michael the friendship or relationship disappears and then reappears when the person switches from not being a friend to being a friend again. In other words, the person changes from a friend to non-friend and in that switch, becomes a different person. Thus the rapid changing of people is better understood as an example of how Michael continues to struggle with SOP. It would be difficult to trust others and make friends when they might suddenly not be your friend at any moment. Summary. Starting from an early age, Michael endured many traumas. He was the fifth out of seven children born to a mother who was more interested in finding a romantic partner than in her children’s wellbeing. Michael’s father was in and out of his life. In addition to the chaos and pain of being abandoned and passed around to various caretakers, Michael’s stepfather, who entered Michael’s life when Michael was two and a half, physically and emotionally abused him. He was (sexually) abused during the night starting at age two and a half by “creatures.” Between the ages of 12 and 18, Michael lived with his uncle who physically and emotionally abusive and threatened him with guns. At least one of Michael’s mother’s boyfriends physically abused him and almost killed him.

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Many of Michael’s psychological struggles can be understood as difficulties with SOP. His visual hallucinations, such as when he saw the ghosts of people who were missing or dead and saw floating lights, are examples of SOP struggles as people or things that were not real appeared and disappeared to Michael. During the interview I saw Michael struggle with SOP around contradicting himself with no awareness. For example, Michael first said his uncle shot a gun at him and then Michael said his uncle did not. Michael described feeling abandoned or tossed out in the cold when he was sent to stay with Nancy, and then he denied feeling that way. As a final example, he implied that he continues to be haunted by ghosts to this day and then indicated that he is no longer haunted. Michael also struggled with SOP in relationships. People abruptly shift from being his friend to not being his friend. In sudden shifting back and forth, it is as if the friend disappears and becomes someone different, a non-friend with whom he has no friendship. The friendships disappear and reappear as the people shift. Michael’s struggles with SOP seem to be associated with his earlier traumas. Most of the times his SOP difficulties emerged during the interviews (the contradicting without awareness) were when Michael was talking about early traumas such as: his stepfather beating him, chaos in his family growing up, his uncle abusing him, and his uncle threatening him with a gun. Furthermore, Michael’s visual hallucinations of the floating lights appeared in the spot in Michael’s apartment where his best friend killed himself after this upsetting event. Based on documentation in his chart of child sexual abuse, the “creatures” that terrorized Michael as an infant could be a person sexually abusing him. Being violated in such a way by a caregiver Michael depended on for survival would have been horrifying and overwhelming. Thus, seeing the abuser as a “creature” would have allowed Michael to avoid having to make sense out of this terrifying paradox. The effect this trauma had on Michael’s development of SOP is still evident in the way he continues to talk about “creatures” in the present instead of the abusers; he knows something hurt him, but he still thinks it was creatures. Michael also drew connections between his lifelong struggles with suicide and the traumas he endured. For instance, Michael brought up the creatures in response to my question of why he wanted to kill himself when he was only 3 years old. Another time Michael said that the reason he has tried to kill himself 13 or 14 times is because of feeling abandoned (“tossed out in the cold”) throughout his life.

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In summary, Michael experienced a number of overt and subtle traumas starting at an early age. His symptoms (e.g., visual hallucinations) can be understood as struggles with SOP. These struggles with SOP are connected to his early traumas because current discussions of prior trauma elicit SOP difficulties in the present. Finally, when accounting for his high number of suicide attempts Michael refers to early traumas. Cara Brief description. Cara is a 32-year-old, heterosexual, Caucasian woman. At the time of our interviews, she had been in Woodside State Hospital for 6 months. According to her chart, her primary diagnosis when she was admitted is psychotic disorder NOS (not otherwise specified). She was also diagnosed with: bipolar I disorder, most recent episode mixed, severe with psychotic features; PTSD (posttraumatic stress disorder); caffeine intoxication; phencyclidine abuse; nicotine dependence; cannabis abuse; and personality disorder NOS. Cara was hospitalized when police were called by someone who saw Cara getting ready to kill herself by jumping off of a bridge. After 3 weeks in Riverside Hospital, Cara was admitted to Woodside State Hospital. Cara has a younger brother who is 30 years old. She has an older half-sister who is 39. Cara’s mother has been married five times. Cara’s mother was married to Cara’s sister’s father for 7 years before she married Cara’s father. Cara’s mother and father divorced when Cara was 6 years old. Cara’s mother was briefly married to a man who turned out to be gay. Then she started dating Cara’s stepfather when Cara was 8. They married when Cara was 10. Cara’s mother and stepfather divorced when she was 12 or 13. They remarried when she was 17 and divorced again when she was 24. Cara grew up in an unstable household. When Cara was 6, her mother kicked Cara’s 13- year-old half-sister out for talking back and not helping out around the house. Cara’s father was “bipolar.” He was unpredictable. Cara has fond memories of him but he also physically abused Cara and her brother. After Cara’s mother and the gay man divorced, his family would not see Cara or her brother, which made Cara sad. Cara’s stepfather was a violent and unpredictable alcoholic. The family was poor because her stepfather spent too much money on alcohol. He physically and verbally abused the family. Cara remembered a particularly frightening incident when she was 10; she woke up to her stepfather beating her mother and walked to the police

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station in the snow. Her stepfather broke her mother’s ankle, and when the police arrived to arrest him, he was choking her mother. Cara’s mother kicked him out repeatedly and then took him back. Cara’s mother would slap her and verbally abuse her, calling her names and telling her she had the same crazy look as her father. Cara felt that her mother favored her brother. Cara’s brother started using drugs when he was 10 years old. He started running away, getting into trouble, and abusing drugs. He stole from Cara to buy drugs. In the last few years, he broke into her place and she had to call the police. He is currently in prison for arson. Cara’s mother worked and would send Cara and her brother to various babysitters in the summer. When Cara was 6, the husband of the woman who was babysitting her touched her inappropriately on one occasion. Cara’s mother did not take action. One sitter had mean children who would pick on Cara. She reported faking illness and making herself throw up at age 7 in order to avoid going to this sitter. When she was 10, she was sent to a sitter whose house was filthy; there was rotting food in the kitchen and the toilet did not work. One day, Cara and her brother decided to walk back to their home. At that point, they were left to take care of themselves. Cara reported being bullied in school. She was made fun of because her family was poor and called a “nerd.” Cara reported that she had no friends by 8th grade. When Cara was 17, she moved to Woodside with her mother and stepfather. She started running away and ended up being put in a juvenile detention center twice. She went to a foster home and then her grandmother’s, where she ran away and spent 4 months living on the streets. Cara became sexually active at age 15. When she was 17, she started having unprotected sex with as many men as she could because she wanted to have a baby. She got pregnant when she was 19 and had a son. Her son lives with his father. She had a daughter with another man, Tom, 4 years later. They have dated off and on since 2001. Her daughter is living with Tom and Cara plans to move back in with them when she is discharged from Woodside. Cara started doing drugs when she was 17. She was addicted to crack cocaine and has used crank (a type of methamphetamine), cocaine, marijuana, Lortabs, and heroin. In her chart it said that she engaged in prostitution in order to get crack and crank. Cara was admitted to a children’s hospital four times between the ages of 14 and 17 for psychological difficulties. She was admitted to Woodside State Hospital for the first time when

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she was 17. She was hospitalized again at age 18 after her father died. When she was 24, Cara was living in a group home. She became delusional and ended up being hospitalized again. Three years ago, she broke up with an abusive, alcoholic boyfriend who started stalking her. Her son had to be hospitalized for an outburst in school. Her apartment was broken into and she was robbed. Then she started dating a man who ended up cheating on her, did disturbing, bizarre things, such as urinating on her clothing and biting her, and burned her foot with a crack pipe. At the end of last winter, she overdosed on Lortabs and had a psychotic break. Last spring she use heroin laced with bath salts, had a psychotic break, and ended up in the hospital. She was paranoid, heard voices, and heard messages in songs. She was in and out of Riverside Hospital several times before her current hospitalization in Woodside State Hospital. Cara was always dressed in clean, casual clothes. She was slightly overweight and appeared younger than her age. Cara was generally quiet when I saw her around the hospital. She had completed her treatment requirements and was living in one of the transitional houses waiting to be discharged when I met with her. Cara was cooperative and eager to participate. We met for three interviews and she completed the writing exercise. (I provide the transcripts of our interviews in Appendix J.) Her affect was blunted and she did not show emotion when talking about difficult or painful experiences. She was very matter of fact throughout our conversations. When I went through and compiled Cara’s brief summary, I was surprised to see how many traumas she endured. While I might have left our interviews somewhat weary from trying to keep the sheer number of incidents she talked about straight, I did not have the heavy, drained feeling I often experience after bearing witness to trauma. Narrative. For Cara’s narrative, I started with her childhood and continued more or less chronologically through her life. As with other participants, we returned to particular topics and events both within and across all three interviews. Thus, there are times when I drew from and consolidated multiple conversations. I begin with Cara’s childhood experiences with her father, mother, sexual abuse, and stepdad. I move on to her adolescence, focusing on difficult events and the psychological difficulties she experienced concurrently. Then I briefly discuss how SOP disruptions affected

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her relationships. I review more recent difficulties Cara experienced and finally, how she ended up in Woodside State Hospital. Cara’s childhood involved violence, instability, unpredictability, abuse, and neglect. All three of Cara’s main caretakers, her mother, father, and stepfather, were abusive towards her. We will start with her father. Father. In the first interview, Alisha explained, “My dad was on Thorazine and Lithium at different times. And they put him the state hospital here. They put him here.” “Woodside?” I asked. “Mm-hmm.” “Oh wow,” I replied. “And, uh, he almost died from an overdose of, uh, um, Lithium. So years later he stopped taking his medicine and nobody wanted to be around him because he was kind of violent. And he died when I was 18 of a burst aorta. And they didn't know he had died and they found him 3 days later by the smell. I didn't even know what he looked like. The last time I seen him I was 10. Because my mom and dad got a divorce when I was 6.” “Oh okay. What was he like when you were little?” “I was afraid of him,” explained Cara. “Yeah.” “Sometimes, like when I was real little, I remember being afraid of him because he had picked up a floor model TV, you know one of those big screen ones, and threw it out in the road. And, um, when he lived by himself and he was with my – and he wasn't with my mom he would come to get me and my brother. And we would spend time with him. Like we would go fishing. We'd have cookouts. We'd do fireworks. So he had some – We had some good times with him.” “Mm-hmm. And so s-sometimes you were afraid of him but other times you had good times with him?” I summarized. “Mm-hmm. Yep.” I asked, “What else – Did he do other things that were scary?” Cara described an incident from when she was 10, “Uh, one time when he saw my brother out across at this playground across from my grandma's house – I went inside but my brother stayed out and talked to him, because I didn't want to have anything to do with him. And he grabbed my brother by the shoulders and my brother was crying. And he shook him and he

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bruised his shoulders and his arms. And he asked him, ‘Why haven't you been writing me?’ And- And he left after that and my mom called the police on him. But I don't think anything happened.” Starting at an early age, Cara was afraid of her own father. He was unpredictable and violent. His out of control behavior, such as when he threw the TV set, traumatized her when she was very young (i.e.,“real little”). While she had some positive memories with him, by age 10 Cara “didn’t want to have anything to do with him,” which speaks to how terrifying he was. I asked, “Why did he and your mom get divorced?” “Because he wouldn't stay on his medications. He didn't – He couldn't hold a job hardly. I guess he was violent towards her too.” “Do you remember that?” “No I don't remember it. And I don't remember her ever getting beat or anything. But I think he was just loud. He didn't beat her. He- they probably yelled at each other quite a bit.” Whether or not Cara witnessed her father beating her mother, she experienced him as violent towards her mother (“I guess he was violent towards her too”) and overheard loud yelling. Loud yelling and believing her father could hurt her mother would have been traumatic for Cara as a small child. Having a father with such erratic behavior would have made it difficult for Cara to develop SOP. It was almost like Cara had two fathers- one who was fun and caring and one who was mean and violent. In the second interview, I asked Cara to describe some of her earliest memories. She shared, “I remember one time, they had a red Nova, my parents did. And I took an orange marker and stuck it against the side of the car and then ran all the way around the side of the car with my marker in my hand and I gave it my own racing stripe.” Cara chuckled and continued, “And um, my mom beat my butt. She gave a washcloth to wipe it off with but she ended up, you know, cleaning it up, what I had left on there. But I would’ve gotten to- into severe trouble if my dad would’ve caught me doing that.” “What would he have done?” I asked. “I would’ve gotten my butt beat.” “With?” “Like worse, than my mom. I’d probably get the belt.” “So he would’ve beat you with a belt?” I repeated.

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“Mm-hmmm,” confirmed Cara. “Oh ok. Did he do that when you were little?” “Uh, I don’t know if one time he did. I think he might have because I know I had welts, on my bottom. And um, I know my grandma and my mom weren’t happy about it. I think that’s also one of the reasons they got a divorce, my mom and dad. Because we were just too little to be beat with a belt. It was either a belt or a switch. I don’t know which.” “But you had to be less than what, 5 years old?” I asked. Cara clarified, “No, it was probably 6. I was pretty small.” Cara’s mom beat her butt, however, her mother also helped clean up the car to protect her from her father’s worse beating. Cara’s memories of her father’s violence towards her are hazy. She knows there were welts and that her mother and grandmother did not like the way he abused her and her brother. The vagueness and uncertainty around these memories suggest that Cara may have dissociated in order to protect herself from the horror of the beatings. Having a violent and frightening caregiver is usually traumatic for children as they are defenseless and dependent on their caregivers. Cara mentioned that her father had “violent tendencies.” I asked her, “What do you remember, what was your experience of his violent tendencies?” Cara replied, “He would, he would spank me and he would only use his hand. But it really hurt my feelings and made me cry. And he used to make fun of me, sometimes. He would like pat my belly and say, ‘You’re getting a little chub on you.’ Or, ‘You’re getting a little bit fat. So quit eating so much.’ I’m not sure if that’s exactly what he said but, I think he said something like that. And I was little, I was maybe 8 or 9.” Earlier Cara said her father gave her welts with a belt or switch. Here she says that he “would only use his hand.” She contradicts herself without any awareness, indicating difficulties with SOP. We see the connection between the trauma of her father’s violence and Cara’s struggles with SOP because as she talks about the early trauma, difficulties with SOP manifest in the present. Cara also endured her father’s cruel comments about her weight. Divorce. I asked Cara, “And I’m wondering what was it like for you – how did you feel about your parents getting divorced?” “I was too young to really notice a difference. But then when I got older, and I’d I’d seen other kids with their mom and dad, both, you know, real mom and real dad, it upset me. I tried to

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get my mom and dad back together. Me and my brother threw fits about our babysitter. So when I was like, around 8, my dad used to watch us. And my mom would come and pick us up at my dad’s. But it didn’t work. They never got back together.” “Yeah. What did they tell you when you- when they got divorced. Did they explain it to you or anything?” “They didn’t explain anything to us.” “Oh, ok. So one day he was there and the next day he wasn’t?” “Yeah, my mom was really horrible about the divorce. She would bad talk him all the time. And then I would tell him. Me and my brother would tell him what my mom said about him. And then he would bad talk her. So it went back and forth.” I asked, “What did they say about each other?” “My dad said that she had coke bottle bottoms for glasses. And dog breath. And uh, she did have glasses that were real thick. And I think her breath smelled, or he thought her breath smelled because she smoked. And she had tonsil problems. She got her tonsils removed when she got fixed. They just went in and did both surgeries at the same time. So I guess that’s why her breath stunk. I don’t know I never noticed her breath stinkin’. Um, so my dad would just say rude things like that. And then my mom would call him El Nutso and say, ‘Your dad’s crazy. Your dad’s nuts.’” I asked Cara how she felt about her parents saying negative things about each other. Cara responded, “Wounded. Like my emotions were wounded because he would say bad stuff about her and she would stay bad stuff about him. And I felt confused. And I didn't know who to be loyal to. I felt like they were fighting over loyalty of me and my brother's.” Cara’s parents did not explain what was going on with the divorce. Her parents said negative things about each other to their children, putting them in the middle. Cara felt like she had to choose between parents. Subjecting children to hearing about negative aspects of their parents, aspects that the children may not be familiar with, can be confusing, as we will see in the next excerpt. Cara also mentioned that her mother would tell horror stories about her father. I asked, “What other stories did she tell you about him?” “About how he would walk around Franklin, where my grandma lived- you know how I told you he’d be in the diner singing to himself? How he would walk around Franklin, talking to

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himself. He wouldn’t wash his hair. He wouldn’t take baths. But the dad I knew had short black hair. Well, kind of longish, cause it like went down to his neck and it was black and it was silky and it was clean. And he was strong and he was tan. And he had, like, a beard. And that’s the dad I remember. He was a very clean person and he took care of himself. But, that’s basically it.” Cara has her own experience of her father, which is very different from the one her mother presents. She specified, “the dad I knew” and “the dad I remember,” to distinguish from her mother’s descriptions. It would have been confusing for Cara to reconcile these contradictory images of her father, potentially interfering with her development of SOP. Mother. I asked Cara what her mother was like when Cara was little. Cara replied, “She used to work a lot. She still works a lot. She's a Nursing Assistant. And I remember she used to have really long hair and it was brownish-blond and she had glasses and she was a good mom. She smacked us in the face though, which was bad about her parenting.” “When would your mom smack you across the face?” “Um,” Cara cleared her throat, “if me and my brother were fighting or if I back-talked her.” “Mm-hmm, okay. So you knew when it was coming. It would be sort of a punishment?” “Yeah.” “Okay. Were you afraid of her?” I asked. “No.” “Okay.” “I guess I felt that I deserved it.” I asked, “How often would your mom slap you?” “Quite a bit. I think she slapped me more than she slapped my brother because my brother was her favorite.” “Oh. How did you know that?” “I knew it from the way she treated him and she babied him. And he was the only boy and he was the youngest of the family. And she almost lost him when he was born 'cause he was a preemie. So that's – She'd always treated him different from my sister and me.” “Hmm. So would she smack you every day?” “No. Just – She would smack me a lot. I don't – I don't – I can't count the times but it wasn't every day.”

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“Mm-hmm. But it was pretty regularly?” “Yeah, mm-hmmm,” replied Cara. Mm-hmm. Do you remember the first time she ever smacked you?” I asked. “I was really little. I think I was 6.” “Do you remember what happened?” “No I can't remember. I think me and my brother got into an argument or a squabble because we were little. And she just hauled off and smacked me one.” “Mmm. How did you feel?” “It really hurt my feelings. It made me really sad. I think like spankings and being slapped in the face – I think it hurts more your feelings than it does visibly.” “What does it do to your feelings?” I asked. “It makes you really sad and ashamed.” “Mm-hmm, yeah. And how did you feel about your mom when she slapped you?” “I hated her and I wanted to go live with my grandma.” Cara’s mother slapped her on a regular basis starting from when Cara was quite young. Being slapped by a parent hurts physically and emotionally, but, as Cara observed the internal damage can be worse. Cara felt “sad and ashamed” when her mother slapped her. Children try to make sense out of being abused as best they can. Often the explanation they settle on, because it allows them to maintain their connection with an abusive caregiver, is that there is something wrong with them. We see that with Cara when she said she felt “like I deserved it.” She also indicated that her mother favored her brother and slapped him less. Feeling inconsequential and like one is deserving of punishment (i.e., bad) affects one sense of self, and as we will see later on, may contribute to grandiose delusions. The abuse was also most likely traumatic for young Cara. Cara contradicted herself when she said, “she was a good mom. She smacked us in the face though.” Cara is unaware of the contradiction in her statements, indicating difficulties with SOP. We see the connection between the early trauma of her mom’s physical abuse and the disruption of Cara’s development of SOP because Cara’s struggles with SOP emerge in the present when she talks about the past. Cara commented, “I'd have to say it's better being an adult.” “What do you mean?” I asked.

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“Well I don't have to worry about like back-talking anyone, um I don't have to worry about being slapped in the face by my mom. I don't have to like watch myself carefully what I do because of angering my stepdad. I don't have to worry about my brother being out and running the streets and getting into trouble with his friends and – You know it-it's just better being an adult, probably because I don't have to answer to anyone.” “Mm-hmm. It sounds like you had to walk on a lot of eggshells when you were younger.” “Yeah. I did. Yeah. My sister was lucky. She escaped everything. My mom kicked her out when she was 13 and my sister, um-” We get a sense of how horrific Cara’s childhood was. She constantly had to monitor herself and be on guard to avoid angering a parent and the ensuing abuse that would follow. Cara considers her sister “lucky” because “she escaped everything” by being kicked out of the house at age 13. I asked, “How old were you when she got kicked out? So you would've been-?” “Thirteen from seven. No she must've been kicked out younger than 13 because I was really little when she didn't live with us. I think I was like 6. No she was 13 then because we're 7 years apart.” “Okay.” “But anyway she got kicked out when she was 13 because she was – She would back talk my mom and she wanted to live with her dad and she couldn't stand it and – So she would – She would stay from friend to friend's house and this social worker from Welfare came to the school one day and kept her after school. And a secretary called my grandma and she said, ‘You'd better get down here. They're gonna take Carrie.’ And my grandma went down there and – So she had my sister live with her.” “Wow.” “Yep.” I wanted to understand, so I asked, “Why was your mom –? Your mom wanted to kick her out because -?” “She would back-talk my mom and she didn't want to help do any chores around the house. She didn't want to take care of me and my brother.” “And what did your – What did your mom tell you about why your sister was kicked out?”

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“Just that.” “Oh that's why she was-?” “Yeah.” “How did you feel about your sister moving out?” I asked. “I really missed her.” Here we have another example of the instability in Cara’s childhood, as her sister leaves the family to live with their grandmother. I also want to point out that Cara’s mother expected her 13-year-old daughter to take care of the younger siblings. Such an expectation was inappropriate for someone that young. At an early age, Cara learned that to stand up to her mother meant being abandoned. As we are about to see, Cara also learned that it was not safe in her house to express anger, so she went about it in indirect ways. I asked Cara, “When you were little, um, what would happen if you got angry?” “I pulled out my hair. I would um, break things, like presents that my mom or my stepdad got me. I would tear things up. I poured glue in my mom’s flowers and milk- to kill em. She had houseplants. To get back at her I would do that.” Cara turned some of the anger she was not able to express towards herself as she pulled out her own hair and broke some of her possessions. “What would you, what did you want to get back at her for?” I asked. “I guess she would correct me. She was always harder on me than she was on my brother. I always thought she didn’t like me because I looked like my dad.” “Did she ever say anything about that?” I asked. “No, she’d just say stuff as I got older that I was nuts like he was. I was crazy like he was. She’d stay stuff about my eyes.” “Like what?” “‘Why are your eyes so big and beady?’ ‘You’ve got that wild look in your eyes like your dad.’ Just things like that.” “When would she say that to you?” “When she would be in a bad mood.” We see additional trauma here because having a parent tell you that you are essentially crazy like your father (“You’ve got that wild look in your eyes like your dad”) would be upsetting and frightening for a child.

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I continued, “Um, so when you were angry at her you would do things like that. And how did, did you ever express your anger to her or your stepdad or your dad?” “Um, when I expressed it to her, she would slap me in the face. And I knew better than to express it to my stepdad.” “What would he do?” “He would beat me with the belt.” “So it wasn’t safe to be angry in your family?” I reflected. “No.” “And when your stepdad was angry he would be verbally- he would-“ “He would be verbally abusive or like, physically with the belt.” “And when your mom was angry?” “She would slap me in the mouth or in the face. And um, yell at me. And I would get grounded. It wasn’t a very good home growing up.” Cara is correct, it certainly was not a good home growing up; it was a home characterized by unpredictability and abuse. It was unsafe for Cara to express anger. When Cara’s mother or stepfather were angry, they would verbally and/or physically abuse Cara. Cara’s mother also seemed to resent Cara for looking like Cara’s father. We get a sense of how Cara was helpless to defend herself or avoid her mother’s anger. Cara’s mother’s relationship instability contributed to the unpredictability in Cara’s life. I asked Cara why her sister’s father and Cara’s mother got divorced. Cara explained, “My sister’s dad cheated on her a lot. So that’s how they ended up divorcing.” I wanted to make sure I had it straight, “And she was her, he was her first husband.” “Mm-hmmm.” “Okay. Your dad was the second.” “Mm-hmmm.” “Your stepdad was the third.” Cara corrected me, “My stepdad was actually the fourth. My mom, in between my stepdad and my real dad, she wanted to get out of Franklin. It was a real small town. Anyway she wanted to get out of Franklin because of my dad’s reputation and, you know, town’s people talk

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and she just didn’t want to be harassed or anything. So she married this guy named Shawn and he turned out to be gay.” “Oh ok.” “That’s really horrible isn’t it? Married to somebody that’s gay and you don’t know they’re gay.” “Yeah,” I replied. I asked about what life was like when her mother was with Shawn. Cara said, “I do remember he had a family and the family was real good to us. But after the divorce like, all the brother-in-laws and sister-in-laws had nothing to do with my brother and I. They just had nothing to do with any of us.” “His family was involved in your life. And then they just had nothing to do with you after the divorce?” “Yeah.” “Okay. How was that for you?” “I was kind of disappointed. I didn’t know. I didn’t understand it, why they wouldn’t still talk to us or still come over or why we couldn’t still visit our cousins and stuff.” Shawn’s family was very good to her family, and then, after the divorce, they had nothing to do with her or her family. We see how unstable Cara’s family life was growing up. Ongoing family instability throughout childhood makes it difficult to develop SOP because life is so unpredictable. Cara talked about a cousin named Jason, one of Shawn’s nephews, who was “really deranged” when they were little. Cara said, “It’s funny though, I got to be with Jason when he was um, 19 or 20 and I was like, 15 or 16. So I got to see my cousin Jason again. I used to hang out with him all the time. And he was so stupid! He was so gross. He was like the grossest person I’ve ever known probably.” “But you got to see him again when you were older, but you lost contact for a while after the divorce,” I repeated. “Yeah. I really like spending time with him too.” Here we see Cara contradict herself without any awareness again. Jason was “really deranged,” “so stupid,” and “the grossest person” she has ever known, and yet, she really likes

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spending time with him. The instability of people coming in and out of her life as a child affected her development of SOP and talking about that upheaval elicits SOP difficulties in the moment. Cara’s mother also dated men in between her marriages. Cara said, “And when I was like 14 or 15 – I think I was 15 – my mom, um, started dating my stepdad's sponsor. And that was like really bad. I felt like what she did was really bad and I was angry with her. And I couldn't stand it. And we moved in with him. We had to get rid of my dog. He got rid of our cat, um. He was – He was real mean to me. Like he-he would gripe at me constantly.” “Like what? Like complaining about stuff or -?” “Yeah. I can't remember what it is now but he would just – He would just be really mean to me. And he wasn't a good person. Like he would put his, um – He would write his name on all his foods in the fridge and in the cupboard and he would have special food. And he would have his separated from me and my brother's. And one time I asked him for something and he said no. And I told him, I said, ‘I'll never you ask for another damn thing as long as I live here with you.’ And I didn't.” “Wow.” “And he was a real jerk.” “Yeah.” “And my mom ended up breaking up with him and we moved out. And she got back with my stepdad.” Cara’s mother does not protect her children from her partners. She seems to prioritize her need for a romantic partner over Cara’s need for stable and safe caregivers. Cara’s mother is willing to overlook how harmful and abusive the men she dated were towards her children. Here we have the trauma of this man being mean and constantly griping at Cara, as well as the loss of both of Cara’s pets. Cara’s mother went back to work when Cara was 5 or 6 years old. Cara and her brother were cared for by a number of unsuitable babysitters. Cara explained, “I didn’t like it later on when she started to work because like, I knew, I remember I was at this one babysitter’s house where she was real snippy to me and she let her kids be mean to me. Like they would hit me and stuff. And I just wanted to go home, so I’d start fake puking. Like I would make myself sick by putting soap in my mouth. And like putting my finger down my throat.” “How old were you?”

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“Seven.” At only 7 years old, Cara literally made herself sick to avoid terrible babysitters. The extreme action Cara took speaks to how awful it was with this babysitter. Cara continued, “And then after that it was spurts with other babysitters, short- a short time with other baby sitters and my grandma and my sister. And then my dad for a short time. And then my stepdad, when he was laid off work he would watch us. Or his brother Derrick would watch us. And there was this other lady, I think I was 10 or 11. Her name was Barbara. She used to be dating my stepdad’s cousin. And then they broke up, and then um, she started watching us. And her house was filthy. There was flies in there. There were maggots on the dishes. There was like a whole bunch of dishes piled up. Her bathroom, something was wrong with the sewer and the toilet wouldn’t flush so there was human waste in the toilet. I would remember after my mom would drop us off at like 6 o’clock in the morning. This was summer time too so it was extra hard to do. I would get up around 11 after we would sleep there for a little while at Barbara’s. And I would hold my breath and not even sit on the seat. I would like, squat above it. Use the restroom, you know, just pee. Made sure I didn’t have to do anything else because I didn’t want anything to splash up on me. It was really disgusting. And I would pee once. And then I would hold it from 11 o’clock that day until 6 o’clock when my mom got off work. And then she would take us home and then, I would hit the bathroom as soon as I got home.” “Wow,” was all I could say. I was shocked that Cara’s mother had no idea what was going on, so I asked, “Your mom didn’t know how bad it was there?” “I think she did, but, it was hard to find a babysitter for kids our age.” We hear about more instability in terms of the people who looked after Cara and her brother. Cara’s mother was also irresponsible in leaving her children in such an unsanitary and unsuitable environment. Cara makes an excuse for her mother’s irresponsibility. Sexual abuse. Cara’s mother’s negligence around finding competent babysitters resulted in Cara being sexually abused. Based on Cara’s chart, I knew that something had happened, but she did not talk about it until I asked specifically, “I was just wondering about, I saw that it said that, you’d mentioned sexual abuse? At least the doctor noted it in your chart.” “Yeah. Um, when my mom was going through the divorce, I had to stay at this babysitter. And, I was laying on the couch with her husband. And uh, he’d gotten a blanket and was

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touching me. And I thought it was normal because I thought he was doing the same thing to my brother. I didn’t think anything of it.” “Yeah.” “And then later on in school, in the first grade, they told us about. That it was wrong for people to do that. And to um, tell someone that you care about and that cares about you and that you love and trust. And I told my brother and my brother told my mom and she didn’t do anything about it.” “I’m sorry.” “But then, but then like, a couple years ago she said she was sorry she didn’t do anything about it. But she was going through a rough time and she was going through the divorce and she wouldn’t know how to pursue it.” “How old were you when that happened?” “Like 6.” “Oh ok. How long did it happen, how many times did it happen?” “Just once.” “Just once. Okay. And was that the only time anything like that happened?” “Yup.” “Thanks for letting me know about that.” “Okay. You’re welcome.” Cara was very matter of fact when talking about the incident. If talking about it distressed her at all, I could not tell. Cara’s mother did nothing at the time. Later she acknowledges that she should have done something and offers excuses for why she did not act. It was probably confusing for Cara to learn that the neighbor did something wrong, have her mom find out through her brother, and then observe her mother fail to take action. A child might wonder whether her mother not acting meant that what the neighbor did was not a big deal. Stepdad. Cara said that when she was 14 years old, she was seeing the school counselor because of her stepdad’s alcoholism. “Was there anything else going on when you were 14 besides your stepdad, or -?” I asked.

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“Nope there wasn’t. I had a basically normal life except for my stepdad being an alcoholic and my mom working all the time and her getting, you know, beat by him, and us getting yelled at.” Observe how Cara minimizes the trauma in her life. We have already seen many examples of abuse and instability, yet supposedly the main issue is her stepdad’s alcoholism. Also note that Cara says, “my mom…getting, you know, beat by him” indicating that her stepdad was beating her mom. We will see Cara contradict herself around her stepdad’s violence later on. I continued, “Mm-hmm. He would yell at you?” “Yeah.” “Oh okay. What would he yell at you for?” “I can’t remember. It was probably for stuff I did wrong. His way of punishing me.” “Was he verbally abusive?” “No not really, not to me. He was verbally abusive to my mom and my brother I think.” Notice that, as with her mother, Cara assumes that she did something “wrong” and deserved the punishment. I asked, “He directed it more at them than you? “Yeah, mm-hmm.” “What was that like for you to see him go after them?” “I felt guilty. But then I would like reassure myself. I would like talk to myself in my head and say, ‘Well they must’ve done something to deserve it.’ That’s – I think that's the only way I could get through it.” It is understandable that Cara would tell herself that her mother and brother deserved the abuse, otherwise she is dealing with a stepdad who is randomly abusive. We also see a shift here. First Cara indicates that her stepdad was verbally abusive to her mom and brother, implying that they did nothing wrong and did not deserve the abuse. Then she says that she assumed that “they must’ve done something to deserve it.” Cara contradicts herself without awareness, indicating difficulties with SOP. We can see the connection between the early trauma and difficulties with SOP because as she is talking about it, SOP difficulties manifest in the present. I reflected, “It's the only way to make sense out of it.”

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“Mm-hmm. Yeah.” “Because if they hadn't done something to deserve it –” Cara finished, “He wouldn't have been yelling at them.” “Yeah, mm-hmm. Were you scared?” I asked. “Yeah I was. I usually stayed in my room all the time. I isolated myself to cope with it and so that I didn't do anything to deserve being yelled at. I would just stay away from my family.” Cara protected herself from her frightening and erratic stepdad by isolating herself. She sacrificed connection, however unsatisfying it was, for safety. At another point, Cara said that, when she was 17 and living on the streets, she would rather stay on the streets than go back to living with her stepdad. Cara explained, “Because he was verbally abusive. Like he would criticize everything. Like I came to the house and my clothes was there and I had to dress nice for a job interview. And, my dad, my stepdad looked at me and said, ‘You look like shit.’ And then so, I like, went in the bedroom and changed into some clothes and he’s like, ‘You’re never going to get a job looking like that.’ So I changed twice. You know, for his approval of getting an interview and getting a job. And he told me one time when I was 17, because I told him that I’d just run away again. And he goes, ‘Well you’ve always got your thumb and your ass.’ Which means thumb- means to hitchhike. And ass is, I can have sex for car rides. I guess that’s what he meant. Which is like really gross. And that’s a horrible thing for a parent to tell their daughter.” Earlier Cara was saying that her stepdad was not verbally abusive to her. Now she explicitly states that he was and recounts two examples of his verbal abuse. Cara is unaware of the inconsistencies in her descriptions, indicating that she is struggling with SOP. Again, we see that SOP difficulties arise in the moment as she is talking about the earlier trauma of her stepdad’s verbal abuse. We will see similar SOP difficulties around her accounts of his physical abuse. In the first interview Cara described an incident where her stepdad hurt her mother. (He broke her mother’s ankle and Cara went to the police; we will hear more about this incident shortly.) I asked, “So he was violent?” “Mm-hmm,” confirmed Cara.

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“He would beat her?” I asked. Cara went on, “Yeah, and he beat my brother. And sometimes he would spank me with a belt but I can't remember it as much as my brother can. I don't think he, uh, beat me as much as he did my brother. I was his pet.” “What do you mean -? So tell me more about being his pet.” “I was his favorite. He-he would – I would always talk to him after school and when he would pick me up from school. And he taught me how to braid hair on my Barbies and my ponies. And he would cook special meals for me that I liked. And I would always spend time with him and I was – I was just little and I was a chatterbox and I talked to him constantly and hang around with him. I-I loved my stepdad.” “Yeah.” “And so I guess I hardly ever got beat or yelled at or anything like that. I was his favorite.” Cara has some pleasant memories of her stepdad. He may have beaten her brother more than he beat her, but here it sounds like her stepdad “hardly ever” beat her or yelled at her. Later on in the first interview, Cara described another traumatic incident with her stepdad. Cara said, “One time though when he was drunk he spit on my hand.” I replied, “Hmm. He just spit on your hand?” “Mm-hmm. I was showing off palm reading and he grabbed my hand and he spit on it.” “How did you feel?” I asked. “That really, really tore me up. It really hurt me when he did that. It made me feel mad, it made me feel sad, and it made me feel ashamed.” “Yeah.” “Because no one – No adult had ever done anything like that to me before. I just – I couldn’t believe it. I was shocked. And I just remember most of all being hurt.” “Yeah, yeah. How old were you when he did that?” “Nine or ten.” “Oh okay, mm-hmm. Yeah.” “Yeah that was pretty bad. I know I remember thinking, ‘When I'm grown and I have kids I'll never treat them like that.’ And ‘I'll never let any man treat them like that.’” “Mm-hmm. You knew it wasn't right even th-though you were little.”

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“Yeah,” agreed Cara. Perhaps Cara was her stepdad’s pet. However, the nice things he did do not make up for the awful things he did as well. Loving an abusive parent is confusing. It seems likely that Cara saw herself as his pet to help her maintain an attachment to the man who she knew as her dad. I continued, “Yeah, mm-hmm. I was wondering if he ever touched you inappropriately-” “No he never did anything like that.” “Okay.” “No, just the occasional beating. I know that sounds horrible saying it like that, but it was common to me. It wasn't as much as my brother got though because, like I said, I was his pet. I was his favorite.” “Mm-hmm. What was – What was it like for your brother?” “Um, my brother was telling me that he got beat all the time. And he said that when he was about 9 he quit crying when he was beat. He just held the tears back. And he said that's why he would – When he got older, that's why he would stay gone all the time because he hated my mom and he hated my stepdad.” “Yeah.” “He was about, I'd say, 13 – when he started staying gone all the time.” So being her stepdad’s pet meant that he beat Cara less than “all the time,” as he beat her brother. Contrary to what Cara implied earlier (“I hardly ever got beat or yelled at”) here she says that her stepdad’s beatings were “common to me.” Cara contradicts herself with no awareness, indicating SOP difficulties related to her stepdad’s abuse. We see how memories of the early trauma elicit Cara’s SOP struggles in the moment, indicating a connection between the early trauma and disruption of Cara’s development of SOP. Cara was the only participant who completed the writing exercise. I typed up what she wrote (without any changes to grammar, punctuation, or breaks in the lines) and I include it here because she describes another traumatic incident with her stepdad (the one I mentioned above). Cara wrote: “The most significant (in a negative way) life experience, happened when I was 10. My mother, and I were sleeping, my brother was staying all-night at a friends. My step-dad came home drunk

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he was beating my mom, the noise woke me up I snuck out of the house in about 3 ft of snow, at four in the morning, walked half a mile to the police station and told them he was hurting my Mom. The police came to arrest him in the nick of time, he was choking her. She had a broke ankle and my step-dad was arrested. I was at the police-station, my mom came to pick me up This marked a turning point in my life After this incident, I played the role of the hero. I watched over my mom, did house-work and made straight A’s. I took on extra responsibilities a 10-year old has no business having. I became not only my mother’s daughter but her best friend and caretaker as well.” Cara’s stepdad broke her mother’s ankle and nearly killed her mother. We get a better sense of how violent and dangerous her stepdad was when he was drunk, and how terrifying that would have been for Cara. Cara mentions several other troubling things. She had to take on extra responsibilities, ones that “a 10-year old has no business having,” and she became her mother’s caretaker, suggesting that she was parentified and perhaps neglected. Being her mother’s “best friend” at 10 years old implies boundary dissolution. Living with her stepdad, whose behavior was so unstable, varying from violent and unpredictable when drunk (which happened multiple times each week) to potentially attentive and caring when sober, would have been confusing for Cara. In the third interview I asked Cara about how she made sense of her stepdad being an alcoholic when she was little. Cara replied, “Um, I didn’t question it, I was just used to it. He was. He just was. I think it was like radical acceptance now that I think of it. I didn’t question it.” “And, his changes from when he was drunk to when he was sober?” I asked.

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“I remember how I liked it better when he was sober. And I was scared of him when he was drunk.” “How would you know he was drunk?” “Because he would have beer at home and he would drink it. And then sometimes he would leave and not come back for hours and hours and then he acted different when he was drunk. Like he would yell at the TV. He would yell at me and my brother. He would yell at the dog. He would be abusive to my mom. He would like beat her and like yell at her and stuff and argue with her.” “Did you see him beating her?” “No.” I was surprised that Cara said she did not see her stepdad beating her mother. She talked and wrote about her stepdad breaking her mother’s ankle, having to go to the police, and then her stepdad choking her mother when she returned with police. Cara does not see the inconsistency between her description of that incident with the police and saying that she did not see her stepdad beating her mother. Cara contradicting herself without any awareness is an example of SOP difficulties. It is as if part of her knows that her stepdad beat her mother and part of her did not want to see him that way. When one part of her is present, she can acknowledge the violence. When the other part is present, she does not. We also see the connection between this early trauma and SOP difficulties, because as she talks about the traumatic events, SOP difficulties manifest in the present. I continued, “Um, and so you knew he was an alcoholic and so but, did that, I don’t know, I’m trying to figure out how to ask this, um, with that shift back and forth between sober and drunk, was anything about that confusing to you?” “I wondered what he got out of drinking. Because I didn’t understand it then. I wondered why he drank so much.” “Yeah. Did he seem like two different people?” “Yeah. My mom called him Jekyll and Hyde. Yeah, that’s what my mom called him. And I just couldn’t understand why he was so mean. And, evil to us. And then, like the next day he would be real nice.” “That was really confusing?” “Yeah. I wondered what I did wrong- you know?”

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“You would think that you did something wrong?” “Yeah. I thought I was a bad kid,” explained Cara. “And that’s why he was so mean?” I asked. “Yeah,” replied Cara. Understandably, Cara struggled to make sense of her stepdad’s contradictory presentations. It is difficult to develop SOP when people behave so inconsistently. Cara’s mother even described Cara’s stepdad as “Jekyll and Hyde,” two opposite personas. The early trauma and confusion related to her stepdad likely interfered with Cara’s development of SOP. We saw how difficulties with SOP manifested as she discussed her early memories of him, offering support for this connection. We also see how his abuse affected Cara’s self-perception. She wondered what she did wrong, as though she was responsible for him being mean. She extended this logic to include thinking he was mean because she was a “bad kid.” Cara internalized a negative view of herself based on the idea that her badness was causing her stepdad to be mean and evil. Difficulties. In the third interview, I asked Cara about her first hospitalization. Cara replied, “Um, I was 14. Kids kept picking on me at school- bullying me. And nobody could do anything about it really. And I was, I was too scared to tell either a guidance counselor. I was meeting with the guidance counselor because of my dysfunctional family life. And I was too scared to tell her cause I thought it would make it worse on me. And also my mom and stepdad, um, went on a break. And then he ended up, they got back together and then he ended up going to the VA. And um, the VA hospital, because he was in the military when he was younger and he was an alcoholic. So he went to the hospital to dry up. And um, I started not being able to sleep and my nerves were like really bad. So um, and I was suicidal. And my mom talked to my guidance counselor and she told her about a children’s hospital. So I ended up going there. It was Southport was what it was called. And I stayed probably about a month.” “Yeah. So, um, you were psychotic?” “Yeah.” “What was going on?” I asked. “Uh, just that I couldn’t sleep and I thought my family and I were being poisoned by carbon monoxide.”

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Cara described dealing with a number of stressors and/or traumas around the time of her first psychotic break. As we will see in this next excerpt from the first interview, Cara also linked childhood isolation or emotional neglect (i.e., not having a parent she could depend on for comfort) with her first “breakdown.” I asked, “Um, so when you were little and you were upset, who would you go to for comforting?” Cara replied, “Nobody. I think it – I think it was my mom once in a while but she could only do so much.” “It sounds like she was really busy and stressed out herself?” “Yeah. She worked a lot. I didn't want to worry her. So I mostly, you know, kept things to myself, bottled them, bottled them up.” “Yeah.” “And I think that's why I had that like nervous breakdown when I was 14.” Cara indicates that growing up, she really did not have a caregiver she could confide in or who she could share her distress with. Not having a secure base is stressful and traumatic for children. In order to cope with her lack of support, Cara “kept things to myself” and “bottled them up.” Cara identified her “nervous breakdown” as the long-term consequence of not having a caring and attentive caregiver to share things with. We have already seen that Cara’s early childhood was characterized by trauma (e.g., erratic caregivers, physical and emotional abuse, and family instability) that would have undermined her development of SOP, leaving her with underlying vulnerabilities. The traumas and stressors Cara was facing at age 14 triggered issues that were lying dormant and Cara became psychotic (i.e., her struggles with SOP emerged). Delusions such as believing that her family was being poisoned by carbon monoxide can be understood as SOP difficulties because, for Cara, carbon monoxide suddenly appears and is a real threat for her, and then disappears. In the third interview, Cara continued talking about her experiences being hospitalized. “But then when I was 15 I had another breakdown and I went to the hospital.” I asked, “What was that breakdown like?” “Um, that one was different, because I think, this boy I was with- I was with an older boy. He was like 18 and I was 15. He tried to rape me.” “What do you remember about that?”

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“Um, I was like still a virgin, so I would just make out with him. And he took me underneath a bridge and it was dark out, it was like, probably midnight and nobody else was around. And he held me down underneath the bridge and I like, I had my hand free, so I grabbed his hair and I pulled it and I told him to get the F off me. And he did. And then I walked, was walking away from him and he said, ‘Wait! I’m sorry!’ And he caught up to me and he said ‘I’m sorry. Did I hurt you? Did I scare you? Has something like that happened to you before?’ And I was like, ‘Well I felt like you were trying to rape me.’ And he was like- ‘I thought you liked it.’ So, he didn’t completely rape me.” Cara introduced her second breakdown by talking about a traumatic experience where she was almost raped. Cara continued, “And I think he slipped me a roofie or put acid in my drink. And it totally messed me up. I was like, I thought I could burn holes through pop cans because I had acid. And I thought it was like acid, you know, like the chemical acid. And, I thought I could like, suck peoples’ life energy. And I ate raw meat… It was raw hamburger. And, cause I thought I was a vampire. And, I like drank vinegar and orange juice to try to clean my system, to get the- get the acid out.” We can understand Cara’s delusions about her identity (e.g., believing she was a vampire and could suck peoples’ life energy) as struggles with self-permanence. In response to the trauma of almost being raped, Cara loses touch with her sense of self. Cara suddenly is no longer human, but is instead a vampire. She abruptly switches, becomes something completely different, and is no longer herself. The disappearance of who she is and appearance of the vampire is an example of self-permanence difficulties. Cara continued, “And, I broke up with him. And I bought him a rose and I had borrowed one of his shirts and I ripped it up with a knife. And I went to his house and there was all these people there and I wanted to humiliate him. So I told him- I said, ‘You tried to rape me.’ And um, I had told him that I still loved him, cause I bought him a rose and I told him I was sorry. And, I was like, I talked to this guy that was friends with him and his name was Eric, and he was actually one of my mom’s boyfriend’s sons. So I used to live with him. And I told him, I said, ‘But I love him! And I want to marry him.’ And he like calmed me down and he was real nice to me. And he said, ‘You don’t love him. It’s just a thing you’ve got now because you’re too young.’ And he was real nice to me.”

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We see a number of contradictions in Cara’s actions. She bought a rose, apologized, and told her ex she still loves him and also ripped up his shirt, wanted to humiliate him, and confronted him about trying to rape her. These inconsistencies without any awareness of the conflict indicate Cara was struggling with SOP. We can understand her inconsistencies as: part of her felt she loved her ex, wanted to get back together with him, and minimized what he did, another part of her was angry and wanted to confront him. Cara continued, “And, I became boyfriend and girlfriend with this one guy that was like, he was 19 or 20 and he told me that his ex-girlfriend, his son’s mom, died of AIDS and that like messed me up. Cause I was real sad for him and I was real interested in him. And, you know, and um. I stayed up for days and my mom finally put me in the hospital.” A few years later, Cara heard messages in songs telling her that she has AIDS. It seems plausible that this distress around a boyfriend’s ex dying from AIDS contributed to the content of her later hallucinations. She was most likely having unprotected sex with him as age 17 was when Cara started having unprotected in order to become pregnant. I asked Cara about the next hospitalization. She replied, “I didn’t go to the hospital again until I was 16, during the summer. The guy, the 19 or 20-year-old guy that I was interested in- not the one that tried to rape me. It was another one, his name was Patrick. We had gone out for a year and he cheated on me and I went to his house and I uh, took like three handfuls of Tylenols and I told him what I did. And he was, he had to drive me to the hospital. And they called my mom and they pumped my stomach with charcoal. They put a tube down my throat and um, after that they put me in Southport- in the children’s hospital again.” I asked, “So how did you feel when you found out he was cheating on you?” “I felt like my whole world had come to an end.” “Mm-hmm. Did it feel -? How did you feel about yourself?” “I hated myself and I wanted to die. I thought there must be something wrong me and that's why he cheated on me.” Cara blames herself for her boyfriend’s mistreatment of her, just as she blamed herself for her stepfather’s abuse. I continued, “Mm-hmmm. So you tried to kill yourself that time.” “Yeah.”

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Cara had described her earlier difficulties as bipolar disorder, so I stayed with her language when I asked, “So you weren’t really manic that time, you were more depressed?” “Yeah, because he cheated on me.” We see how Cara links trauma with her problems. She was depressed because her boyfriend cheated on her. Cara’s next hospitalization occurred when she was 17. She explained, “Um, my mom and stepdad broke up again. But that wasn’t what triggered me. I don’t know what triggered me really. I just felt suicidal and I was in this class at school. It was this childcare program and the other girls were really mean to me and the teacher was like, rude to me and bossy and I pierced my eyebrow and my nose and they kicked me out of the class. And I was in study hall all day. And I kinda’ wanted to get kicked out. And I went to um, the children’s hospital when I was 17 cause I wouldn’t- I was suicidal and depressed really bad and then I was only there about a week or 2 weeks. And then they put me on, I think Paxil- I’m not sure, I- or Prozac. I don’t know which, they put me on one of those and it helped a little and I got out.” I asked, “When you were depressed and suicidal, why did you want to kill yourself?” “I don’t know, I was just depressed. It wasn’t cause of my mom and stepdad breaking up and it wasn’t cause of the class. I think it was more internal.” Here we see another example of Cara contradicting herself without awareness (i.e., SOP difficulties). After sharing a long history of traumas that could help explain why she felt depressed, Cara switches and suggests that she was “just depressed” for no reason. She explains that, rather than being connected to these stressors, “it was more internal.” I continued by asking, “How did you feel?” “I wanted to sleep all the time. I didn’t hardly eat. It was like hardly ever that I ate. And, I wanted to stab myself with a butcher knife. Or ah, throw a hairdryer in my bathtub.” “What did you want to get away from?” “I don’t know.” I kept exploring because, in my experience, people generally have a reason for wanting to kill themselves. I tried, “How did you feel about yourself?” “I hated myself.” “Was that new?”

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“No, I’ve gotten used to feeling that way about myself though. Cause I’ve never felt really good about myself ever- as far back as I can remember.” “How have you felt about yourself?” “Well, I hated myself. And, I wanted to be something different. I wanted to be like really pretty. Or like really skinny.” “What messages did you get about yourself when you were little growing up, from your mom and your dad, do you remember?” “They’d always pick on me about my weight.” Cara wanted to kill herself because she hated herself. She learned to hate herself because of early traumatic experiences where she blamed herself for the abuse (i.e., she was a “bad kid”) and from internalizing her parents’ disparagement. We already heard about her father picking on her about her weight and now we see that her mother criticized her too. Cara was hospitalized for the fifth time when she was 17. Cara explained, “I uh, had a boyfriend that I became serious with. His name was Carl. And um, we were going to get married and everything and have kids together. And then my mom decided to move me here. Cause she wanted a fresh start.” “So you both moved to Woodside?” “No, he didn’t. He stayed.” “No, you and your mom did.” “Me, my mom, and my stepdad. And my brother actually stayed in Countryside cause he had a friend that he could stay with. And um, he wasn’t on medicine- my brother wasn’t at the time even though he needed it. So um, my mom kept me with her because I had to be on medicine. And that was when my dad started being abusive- my stepdad started being abusive to me. And um, that’s when I started running away, is when I was 17. I killed my mom’s parakeet because I wanted to kill her and I knew that I couldn’t do that. So I like squeezed her parakeet to death. And um. I felt really bad about it too. I still feel bad about it to this day. I’ve told her I’m sorry and we’ve made amends though.” “Why did you want to- oh sorry, go ahead.” “Um, she was really abusive to me. She would put me down. She called me an F-ing whore, when she found out that I wanted to stay in Countryside. And she’d tell me I was nuts like my dad. I told her I’d be a better mom than she ever was. And um, that I hated her and I

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wished she was dead. And then that night when we all went to sleep, I was at my grandma’s house, we were staying there before we moved to Woodside. And um, I snuck out of my bed and grabbed the bird and just squeezed it to death. It was real quick. I didn’t torture it or anything. But I felt really bad that I did that. And um, the next day I took a bunch of Tylenol PMs for the buzz and I fell asleep- deep asleep. And my grandma would keep putting her finger under my nose to make sure I was still breathing. And um, after that, the day after I took those pills my mom put me in here in Woodside.” Again, Cara becomes symptomatic in conjunction with trauma. Cara is forced to move and leave her boyfriend, she is separated from her brother, and both her stepdad and mother are abusing her. Cara’s next incident occurred when she was 18. Cara explained, “Yeah my dad had died when I was 18 and I had the biggest mental relapse ever. I was walking barefoot with bloody feet in the snow because I had been on my legs so much. And I – For some reason – I was trying to get back over to Columbus but this guy picked me up in a car and I think I went to Columbus or Cincinnati. He left me at a truck stop. And I told them because I didn't have a coat and I didn't have shoes for my feet or anything. I banged on this McDonalds window and I said, ‘I need medical attention,’ and I passed out in the bathroom on the floor. And, uh, they took me to Riverside Hospital and I was there probably about 2 months.” I asked, “And were you hearing voices or seeing things or anything then?” Cara replied, “I was delusional. I thought I was like, really important, that I was in the Bible. That’s all I can think of.” “How did you feel about your dad dying?” “It was really upsetting. For years I hung onto it and it hurt me because it was around Thanksgiving. And I hated Thanksgiving because of that. And just now is like – This is like the only time that I can talk – Well I've talked about it several times. I think last year was when I really felt closure about my dad dying. Because for years I used to be so sad and distraught about it.” “That you missed him or that -?” Cara explained, “That I missed out on him. Because I missed so much growing up that I didn't know him, that I didn't get to see him. I had no relationship with him and that's what I miss.”

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“Yeah.” “And that I was turned – I had just turned 18 and I had the responsibility of signing the cremation papers.” Again, Cara’s SOP difficulties emerge right after a traumatic experience- her father’s death. Cara is suddenly someone different; she disappears and someone “really important” from the Bible replaces her. We see how impermanent her sense of self is (i.e., SOP difficulties) because she can abruptly become someone else. It is also interesting that in her delusion she is Biblically important, because in real life she was neglected, abused, and unimportant. When Cara was 23 she had similar delusions. She explained, “I had the grandiose delusions again. I thought I was something, like important or special. Like I had magic powers and um, they put me in the hospital.” Relationships. In the first interview, I asked Cara, “What happens when you're feeling really close to someone, like -?” “Um, sometimes I think, ‘When are they gonna turn on me?’ Or, ‘When is this gonna change? When is this gonna go away?’” “Oh okay. So it feels like you can't really count on it,-” “Yeah.” “that it might just disappear of go away?” “Yeah then I'm afraid it'll change.” We can see how Cara’s difficulties with SOP affect how she experiences relationships. She wonders “When is this gonna go away?” When early trauma disrupts SOP development, people are often left feeling unsure about people continuing to be there for them in relationships. Based on her early experiences with her dad and stepdad changing suddenly, it is understandable that she would worry about relationships changing or going away and people turning on her. I continued, “Mm-hmm. Has that happened to you?” “Um, with friends. Like they quit being my friend because we get into a fight or something. Like this one friend I had, uh, I was staying over at her house and I fixed her up with my cousin and she was dating him. And she kept talking to him on the phone while I was there and I thought that was rude and inconsiderate. So I hung up the phone on them. And then I went

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home a little bit later and like, she – I called her and I told her I didn't want to be friends with her anymore. And we never talked again after that.” Cara and her friend go from being friends to never talking again. The abrupt ending of their relationship is an example of SOP difficulties. There was no sense that the friend could be rude and inconsiderate and still repair the relationship. The relationship disappeared. I continued, “Mm-hmm. Is there anything in particular that leads to you having that feeling of worrying when are they gonna turn on you or when are they gonna leave?” Cara replied, “Probably because I'd see my stepdad's behavior from when he was drunk to when he was sober.” I reflected, “Mm-hmm, so people can just change just like that?” “Yeah.” When I asked about the origins of Cara’s relational uncertainty (i.e., SOP difficulties), Cara connects it to her experiences with her stepdad’s erratic behavior. We see the association between early trauma with a volatile caregiver and later SOP difficulties. Most recently. Cara’s last 2 years involved a number of traumas and hospitalizations. Cara explained, “I didn't have a good year in 2010 or 2011. They were probably the worst 2 years of my life.” “What happened?” “In 2010 I, uh, broke up with this man that was an abusive alcoholic. And my son had an outburst at school and the school sent him to a child's psychiatric unit in Newcastle. And, uh, my apartment was broken into and my money and my medications were stolen. And, um, that was 2010. And that man would, um, he would stalk me later on. “That boyfriend?” “Yeah, he-he would follow me around and sneak up on me and stuff and stare at me. And, uh, my son even noticed it. That's how bad it was. And my son was only ten then.” “Hmm.” “And then, uh, I got with my boyfriend [Mike] that got me into the Lortabs and uh, he was – he was pretty good to me at first. And then later on in 2011 he started cheating on me. He uh – He would say mean things to me like about my family members, that he had slept with my sister and my cousin. And he didn't even know the cousin. She didn't even know him. And of course he – my sister wouldn't sleep with him. She wouldn't do anything like that to me. And he

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wiped-wiped himself, you know after using the bathroom, on a pair of pants I had. He peed on a pair of pants I had. He ripped up my pictures. He smashed up my dishes. And he burnt me on the foot with a crack pipe.” “Wow.” “So he was pretty abusive,” Cara said. “Yeah,” I agreed. “And he – Did I say he cheated on me too?” “Yeah.” “Yeah he cheated on me with somebody that wasn't my family member. And so I finally moved out of his house and um, right after that I went to the hospital. So I'm hoping this year will be better after I get out of the hospital.” In the last 2 years Cara experienced a number of traumas. She broke up with an abusive alcoholic who ended up stalking her. Someone robbed her apartment. Her boyfriend Mike cheated on her and started behaving in very disturbing ways. As we will see, Cara concurrently experienced a number of difficulties with SOP. Cara said she had done well for several years and “I wasn’t hospitalized again until um, recently. Until like, last winter. That’s when I got put in Riverside Hospital and then I’ve been there several times. I don’t even know how many times I’ve been there since then.” In the third interview, I asked Cara to tell me about her recent psychological difficulties. Cara said, “I’d like hear messages in songs and I thought everybody was talking about me and everybody was staring about- staring at me. And, strangers I didn’t even know. Like people around the neighborhood block. I didn’t even know ‘em and I thought they were talking about me.” “When was this?” “Last summer.” “Ok. Um, I, when I was going over our interviews from before you’d said you’d talk to people who weren’t there?” “Yeah, it was like a blur though. I mean everything happened so fast and time has gone by so fast and it’s just muddled. Really, I can barely remember a lot of this stuff. Um, I would hear voices and, they – they knew things about me that only I knew. And, I thought they were real people talking to me.”

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Cara heard voices that were not there and thought that they were real people. We can understand this experience as difficulties with SOP; people who do not exist suddenly appear and are real to Cara. Cara continued, “Because see, my mom lives in an apartment building and when I would go to stay with her, up above her, through the roof of her apartment building I thought I heard this woman talking to me, saying things.” “Like what?” I asked. “Like she would talk about, um, that the police were going to get me and barbeque me. And that I had AIDS and that I was going to go into an AIDS cell block and they were going to, the women were going to cut me and beat me to death and uh, she told me to go outside and assault a priest. Cause my mom lives close to a Catholic church. She told me to go outside and assault him. And, she said that Mike- she was black. And I don’t have anything against black people or anything but I don’t know why she was black. I mean the way the voice was. And, she called him white boy. She said, ‘White boy and his friends have been playing you.’ And, it was just very bizarre. I’d never heard anything like that before.” It is interesting that the voice told Cara that Mike had been “playing” her given that he did cheat on her. I asked, “How did you feel when you heard her voice?” “I was scared. And I was irritated and I was depressed and angry. And I wanted her to shut up. And I would answer her out loud and look up at the roof and talk to her and I just wanted her to be quiet and she wouldn’t. And my mom didn’t hear her. My mom couldn’t hear her.” “Yeah. Sounded like she was right there, but your mom couldn’t hear her. Was that the only voice you heard?” “Yeah, actually it was. It was very strange. It was scary actually. And then I heard messages in, um, music. Like um, outside peoples’ stereos in their car. And this one said that my nephew was raped because of me. Because he was in jail and um, this one message told me to uh, stab my boyfriend, which I didn’t do. I controlled myself. One said I had AIDS. And one, crap I can’t think what the other one said.” Cara heard messages that she had AIDS. This would not have been an unreasonable concern for her, given that one guy she dated when she was 17 had a girlfriend die from AIDS

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and that Cara had unprotected sex with numerous men when she started trying to get pregnant at age 17. (She may have had unprotected sex with this boyfriend.) I reminded Cara, “You talked about one saying, ‘This is unprofessional.’” “Yes, that’s one I couldn’t think of said. I swear it sounded like a car going by and it sounded like handcuffs, you know how they rattle and they make a noise? Like a metal noise? That was the noise the car was making and then, on the song, the song in the car said, ‘This is unprofessional’ to my boyfriend. And I thought he was an undercover cop.” “Mike?” “Yeah. And then I swear one time when I was in the hospital, I was in the um, emergency room and I was handcuffed to the bed. And um, cause they didn’t want me to wander off or anything- I think. And, um, I swear I heard, he might not’ve been talking about Mike, he might’ve been talking about somebody else. But I saw these- this cop talking to a nurse there, a male nurse. And he said, ‘She got with a cop-turned-snitch and a snitch-turned-pastor and he found- he found out she was doing drugs and he turned her in.’ And I don’t know if he was talking about me or not, but I thought he was, and I thought he was talking about Mike- my boyfriend. It was very bizarre. I’m just so glad I don’t hear voices anymore.” “Yeah. How long did you hear that woman’s voice?” “All the time. Every time I was over at my mom’s, she started talking.” “Only at your mom’s?” “Yeah. That’s why I thought she lived there. That’s why I thought she was a real person.” “Always at your mom’s and only at your mom’s.” “Mm-hmmm.” “For how long? From?” “Probably a month.” “A month, ok. Yeah. Um, and you said you’d seen things that weren’t there?” “Yeah.” “What did you see?” “Like I’d see things out of the corner of my eye. Like in my mom’s house I saw bats, up on the ceiling in the kitchen. And I heard them, like I heard their wings flapping. And I like, looked up directly at it, at where the noise was coming from and nothing was there.”

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It seems interesting that Cara consistently heard the voice when she was at her mom’s place, especially given the long history of abuse she experienced from her mom. Cara also saw bats that were not there, another example of difficulties with SOP. Seeing bats that suddenly come and go is an example of SOP because experiencing objects that do not exist abruptly appearing (and really existing) and disappearing indicates that Cara’s sense of the permanence and reality of things is tenuous. Admitted to Woodside. I asked Cara to tell me about the events leading up to her hospitalization at Woodside State Hospital. Cara said, “I was walking by a bridge and I got onto this person's car and I, uh, said that I was gonna jump off the bridge and kill myself. And there was a guy. I don't even know his name but he called the police on me and he said – told them that I was gonna jump off the bridge. And then he let me out of the car and I was walking back across the bridge to find a place to jump from. And then a – several police cars showed up and saw me.” “Okay.” Cara continued, “And they took me to Riverside Hospital and I got checked in and then I was at Riverside a month and then I came here. They did an involuntary commitment.” “And, why did you want to kill yourself?” I asked. “I was depressed. I didn’t have anybody. I wasn’t back with Tom yet. And my daughter, and they were still in another state. And I had no one. I had no cable at home. I had no friends. My mom was the only person that I really hung around with. My sister didn’t have time for me. So, I was pretty depressed.” Cara was depressed for a reason; she “didn’t have anybody” other than her mom. Summary. Starting from a young age, Cara endured a number of traumas. All of her caregivers (father, mother, and stepfather) were physically and emotionally abusive. Her father’s behavior was unpredictably violent, confusing, and frightening for Cara (e.g., he threw a TV set). Cara also has positive memories of her father. Her stepfather was an alcoholic who was violent and abusive towards the family when drunk and could be kind to Cara when he was sober. Cara’s stepdad broke Cara’s mother’s ankle and almost killed her when Cara was 10; Cara had to get the police and take care of her mother. Cara’s mother was more focused on finding a romantic partner than on her children’s wellbeing. Cara’s family environment was chaotic. Her mother kicked her 13-year-old half-sister out when Cara was 6, was married five times and dated

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additional men, who generally did not treat Cara well. Cara’s mother did not carefully vet her children’s babysitters; she left them in environments that were unsanitary and a babysitter’s husband molested Cara. These early traumas most likely disrupted Cara’s development of SOP. Cara made sense out of the caregiver abuse she experienced in terms of her being bad and deserving it; she reported that she has hated herself for as long as she can remember. We can understand Cara’s psychological difficulties as struggles with SOP. She has hallucinated, hearing voices and seeing things that are not there. She also experienced delusions, at different times believing that she was a powerful vampire, was someone important from the Bible, and had magical powers. In other words, Cara disappeared and was replaced by someone or something else. Both experiencing the sudden appearance/disappearance of things that are not there and suddenly becoming someone else reflect how unstable Cara’s sense of self and other permanence is. During our interviews, I witnessed her struggle several times in terms of rapidly switching without any awareness of how she contradicted herself. There were several examples with her mother, father, and stepfather; Cara went back and forth, saying they were not abusive towards her and then describing ways in which they were abusive. Such shifting and confusion around her caregivers is understandable, as Cara was faced with the horrific, untenable situation of depending on abusive and often erratic caregivers for her survival. Cara currently struggles with SOP difficulties in relationships. When Cara feels close to others, she starts to wonder when they will turn on her. She fears that the relationship will change and go away. For Cara, people have stopped being her friend because they got into a fight and she has ended friendships over a fight. We can understand these struggles in terms of SOP, as relationships are tenuous for Cara and liable to suddenly shift or end abruptly (i.e., disappear). When I asked about the origins of Cara’s relational uncertainty (i.e., SOP difficulties), Cara associated it with her experiences with her stepdad’s erratic behavior, showing a connection between early trauma with a volatile caregiver and later SOP difficulties. There are temporal connections between current struggles with SOP and earlier traumas. Cara’s SOP difficulties in the interviews manifested when she would talk about earlier traumas such as: her father’s violence, mother’s violence’, her stepdad’s violence towards her mom, her stepdad verbally abusing her, and family instability. In terms of her hospitalizations, Cara struggled more with SOP during times of greater stress in her life. It seems likely that the early traumas disrupted her development of SOP and left her vulnerable. Subsequent stressors during

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adolescence (when she was physically and emotionally abused by her mother and stepdad, bullied at school, and almost sexually assaulted) and the 2 years prior to her stay in Woodside (when she was robbed, she broke up with an abusive boyfriend, an ex stalked her, and she was abused and cheated on by another boyfriend), triggered her more severe SOP difficulties (i.e., she became psychotic). Cara herself also linked these stressors to her “breakdowns.” We also see a connection between the expression of some of Cara’s SOP struggles and her trauma. As I mentioned, Cara felt very poorly about herself due to: her parents’ criticism of her, their neglecting her, and her understanding that she deserved their abuse because she was bad. In some of her delusions, Cara became someone important and powerful. These grandiose delusions may have been a response to Cara feeling insignificant and deficient in real life. While all of the participants experienced early disruptions in SOP, it seems like Cara’s development of SOP was the least severely disrupted. Cara displayed some difficulties with SOP while talking about trauma during our interviews; however, she was not in the least psychotic or delusional. In comparison to the other participants, Cara seemed the most normal or healthy to me. The state hospital could be a stressful environment, yet Cara had made progress and was in one of the (usually calmer) transitional cottages. I would not be surprised if Cara generally would appear healthier than the others when she is not experiencing stressors. Cara described more positive interactions with her caregivers than any of the other participants. It seems likely that these experiences of being cared for offset some of the damage done by the traumas she endured, resulting in less severe disruptions in SOP. While this is a conjecture, I would expect it to take more stressors for Cara to experience severe SOP difficulties (i.e., become psychotic). In other words, when Cara is in a low stress environment, her SOP appears fully developed and she does not seem to struggle with it; in stressful circumstances, Cara’s SOP disruptions become quite apparent and she has significant difficulties with SOP. In summary, Cara experienced a number of traumas starting at an early age. Her symptoms (e.g., hearing voices and delusions) can be understood as struggles with SOP. These struggles with SOP are clearly connected to her early traumas both in terms of present discussions of prior traumas coinciding with instantaneous appearances of SOP difficulties and in terms of the similarities between her symptoms the abuse she experienced. Finally, Cara’s development of SOP seems to be less severely disrupted, meaning that during calmer times she appears to have mastered SOP, and during stressful times, she loses touch with her grasp of SOP.

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Discussion The current study supported EPCP theory of developmental/structural disruptions. Participants’ struggles could be meaningfully conceptualized in terms of disruptions in SOP. They experienced significant early traumas, and these traumas were connected to difficulties with SOP. Hallucinations, such as hearing voices or seeing things (people or objects), that are not present is a classic example of other-permanence difficulties because something appears and then disappears. Without a solid sense of the permanence of people and objects, it is possible for things to come and go unpredictably. SOP struggles may be more subtle, such as when a person contradicts him or herself without awareness. In such cases, it is as if a part of the person feels one way and other part feels another way. Thus, when one part is present, the person will describe things in one manner, and then when the other part is present, the person may contradict him or herself. There is no awareness of this contradiction because the parts are separate. As I mentioned in the introduction, attachment theory would explain this phenomenon in terms of multiple contradictory models. Self and other are experienced in very different ways depending on which model is operating. Delusions often involve difficulties with self-permanence. The self disappears, becomes someone different, or is transformed so significantly that it is essentially someone different. Andrew provided the clearest illustration, as there were times where he felt that his mind was gone, he would literally disappear, and someone else would be there in his place. The participants experienced many overt and subtle traumas, starting from early ages. James, Alisha, and most likely Michael too, experienced ongoing sexual abuse starting when they were 3, 2, and 2 years old, respectively. A neighbor’s husband molested Cara once when she was 6. An older cousin touched Andrew inappropriately when he was 10 and an older teenage boy raped him when he was 11 years old. An older cousin also may have sexually abused Andrew when he was younger. James, Michael, Alisha, and Cara lived with physically and verbally abusive caregivers. In many cases, the violence approached lethality. James’ mother was afraid that his father would kill them all. Michael’s uncle threatened him with guns and one of his mother’s boyfriends nearly broke his neck. Cara’s stepfather broke her mother’s ankle and almost choked her mother. James, Michael, and Cara witnessed domestic violence. James, Andrew, Alisha, and Michael were rejected and/or emotionally neglected by parents. Andrew

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grew up fearing that his family would find out that he was gay and that they would reject him, essentially losing their love and support. His siblings called him gay slurs. Michael and Cara’s family environments were chaotic, due to their mothers’ relational instability. Andrew was traumatized at age 12 by his mother’s death. In summary, participants had to live with the horror of depending on caregivers who were unpredictable, abusive, neglectful, emotionally distant, and/or violent for their survival. Participants’ struggles with SOP often emerged in the moment when they were talking about trauma. We saw this particularly around contradicting themselves without awareness. These contradictions occurred when participants discussed traumatic topics, such as: parents’ abusive and violent behavior (James, Michael, Cara), rejection (Andrew and Alisha), and family instability (Michael and Cara). Andrew also struggled when he talked about areas of early trauma such as his sexual orientation (terror around whether his parents knew, fears that they would reject him, and the pain of feeling that part of himself was unacceptable) and his mother’s death. Andrew and James provide additional examples of temporal association. Andrew’s difficulties with SOP often emerge every year in the same 2 months as when his mother’s health declined precipitously and she passed away (November and December). In many instances throughout the interviews, when James talked about early trauma, or even came close to talking about early trauma, his difficulties with SOP instantly emerged and he started hearing voices or became delusional. We also have multiple examples of similarities between manifestations of SOP difficulties and early traumas. James created multiple representations of his parents in order to protect himself from having to deal with being dependent on unpredictably violent caregivers. James explained his memories of screaming as the sounds of military combat rather than his brothers’ and his own screams from his father’s abuse. James also created an identity for himself as an investigator of child sexual predators with Operation Stargate in order to explain his memories of sexual abuse. Andrew’s hallucinations related to the trauma of his mother’s death; he saw his deceased mother appear in the moon and on TV. After Michael’s best friend killed himself in Michael’s apartment, Michael’s experienced visual hallucinations of floating lights in the spot where his friend shot himself. Finally, Cara’s parents’ criticism of her, their neglect, and her belief that she deserved their abuse because she was bad, led to her feeling very poorly about herself and despising herself. In some of her delusions, Cara became someone important and

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powerful. These grandiose delusions may have been a response to Cara feeling insignificant and deficient in real life. Limitations The main limitations of this study relate to the extent to which the current participants’ experiences may be generalized to other clinical populations and cultures. As I explained in the Methods section, these participants were diagnosed with schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder. Future research is needed in order to determine the applicability of the EPCP concept of developmental/structural disruptions in SOP for other severe disturbances, such as struggles labeled borderline personality disorder or posttraumatic stress disorder. The present studies’ participants came from a westernized, individualistic culture. We have not investigated whether this same phenomenon would be seen in collectivist cultures. Future research could explore the utility of applying EPCP theory to understanding severe disturbances in such cultures. Implications for EPCP Theory and Future Research Beyond providing empirical support for EPCP theory, these results have implications for clinicians, particularly those who work with clients dealing with more severe disturbances. Clinicians can use EPCP theory to understand their clients’ struggles. Rather than meaningless or random, hallucinations are communications that may signal profound early trauma. We can make sense out of clients who present as disorganized and confused when we have an explanation for their disorganization (i.e., disruptions in SOP). Other psychologists similarly approach understanding severe disturbances (e.g., psychosis) as meaningful reactions to trauma. Karon (2001) conceptualizes schizophrenia as “a syndrome of chronic terror and defenses against terror, to which any human is subject if life is bad enough” (p. 17). Laing (1990/1959) describes psychosis as an attempt to protect and preserve the self for people who struggle with “ontological insecurity” (or in EPCP terms, SOP). The current study’s results also suggest that we ought to be alert for and invite conversations about early trauma when working with more severely disturbed persons. Without such awareness, therapy might proceed at a superficial level, leaving important areas unaddressed. Knowing that talking about trauma can elicit struggles with SOP gives clinicians useful insights into what is happening in the therapy room. Clinicians should monitor for when a client’s struggles with SOP emerge in the moment (e.g., contradicting him or herself without awareness or hallucinating) as this manifestation can signal that earlier traumas are being

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remembered. I did not recognize the pattern until I reviewed the transcripts and constructed the narratives because the connections can be subtle. I believe that the current project provides clear examples that other clinicians can learn from. Future research could investigate two important questions. First, we need to determine whether talking about early traumas with an empathic therapist helps clients develop SOP. I assume that processing and making meaning out of early traumas is beneficial; however, we need to submit this assumption to empirical study in order to be certain of the relationship between discussing early trauma and reductions in SOP struggles. Second, we need to determine whether identifying and addressing SOP difficulties in therapy helps address the traumas that initially caused SOP difficulties. Therapists may address SOP difficulties in a variety of ways, such as, while a client is hypnotized, reminding him or her that even when they are apart, the therapist continues to exist. As another example, if a client feared that his or her therapist would never come back when the therapist went away on vacation, they could discuss this experience in therapy. The empirical question is, would such interventions also help such clients who struggle with SOP also grow beyond their early traumas. Overall, this project offers support for a theory that humanizes and makes sense out of extreme and confusing experiences. By understanding where severe disturbances come from and linking them back to early traumatic experiences, we can see the clients we work with as no different from us. Such a perspective allows us to get closer to clients’ experiences and deepen our empathy for them. Having a theory to guide our work and a deeper understanding of clients’ struggles may allow us to be of greater service to clients dealing with developmental/structural disruptions, particularly if future research finds that dealing with trauma helps SOP. The current study also has implications for EPCP theory and future research that extend beyond the initial goal of evaluating the concept of developmental/structural disruptions against lived experience. First, I will discuss how the current study provides support for the EPCP supposition that developmental/structural disruptions are not absolute. I use Cara’s narrative as an example of how someone may seem healthy but then experience difficulties with SOP during stressful times. Then, through a comparison of participants’ levels of disturbance (i.e., severity of SOP struggles), I elaborate the idea of a continuum of SOP development. To date, EPCP’s descriptions of SOP development basically place people into three categories: do not have SOP, have SOP under low stress, and generally have SOP well. Thinking about SOP only in terms of

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these three broad categories may obscure meaningful differences in the severity of peoples’ SOP struggles. By comparing participants’ levels of disturbance (i.e., severity of SOP struggles), I suggest an avenue to further elaborate EPCP theory: expanding and refining the way we understand peoples’ levels of SOP development. I identify three factors that may contribute to the differences in the accomplishment of SOP development and explain each of these. Then I explore variables in adulthood that may influence the emergence or severity of struggles with SOP. Finally I raise the question of the applicability of SOP concepts for understanding how adulthood trauma affects adults who have not experienced developmental/structural disruptions in SOP during childhood. Throughout this section I will highlight avenues for future research. Developmental/structural disruptions are not absolute. Previous experiential constructivist writings on developmental/structural arrests (Leitner et al., 2000) posit that these arrests, or disruptions as I prefer to call them, are not absolute. Leitner and colleagues (2000) explained that as we develop constructs such as SOP, there are periods where we are beginning to understand them, but may “lose the ability to use the newer ways of meaningfully grasping the world at times of greater psychological stress” (p. 181). If trauma occurs during these periods, we may appear healthy and able to see self and other as permanent when life is less stressful. However, when life places greater demands on us, we may look very disturbed, as we lose touch with our sense of self and other permanence (Leitner et al., 2000). Thus far, no one has investigated whether developmental/structural disruptions are absolute. The present study may provide the first empirical support for this aspect of EPCP theory. Cara provides an excellent example of how, during stressful times, someone may struggle more with SOP. During calmer times, such as when she is in a secure hospital environment and away from injurious relationships, she appears almost healthy. As soon as she stabilized in the hospital, she was not in the least psychotic or delusional. However, early trauma disrupted her development of SOP and her vulnerability remains; during more stressful times, such as during adolescence (when she was physically and emotionally abused by her mother and stepdad, bullied at school, and almost sexually assaulted) and the 2 years prior to her stay in Woodside (when she was robbed, she broke up with an abusive boyfriend, an ex stalked her, and she was abused and cheated on by another boyfriend), Cara’s difficulties with SOP became more obvious. In other words, during times of greater stress, Cara is liable to lose her sense of permanence of who she is (e.g., experience delusions around her own identity) and struggle with

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the permanence of people and things around her (e.g., experience hallucinations that come and go- hearing voices and seeing things that are not really there). Continuum of SOP accomplishment/disruption. All of the participants had achieved at least minimal development of SOP, however, there were notable differences between them in terms of the severity of their disturbances (i.e., how significantly they struggled with SOP). Future research could work on defining and refining categories of severity in developmental/structural disruptions in SOP beyond having no SOP, having SOP under low stress circumstances, and generally having SOP down well. In this section I will compare the severity of participants’ struggles with SOP, ordering them from most to least disrupted. In the following section I will look to differences between participants’ early experiences (age of onset of trauma, nature of trauma, and extensiveness of trauma) in order to understand potential factors affecting the severity of SOP disruption. When ordering participants from most severe developmental/structural disruptions of SOP to least, I would start with Alisha, followed by James. Alisha seems to have the most severe disruptions in her SOP development because of what I described as her fundamental lack of a core sense of self, her profound gender identity confusion, and ongoing hallucinations (i.e., conversations with people in her head). James’ sense of self developed enough to enable him to form some clear memories of his childhood and to recall how he felt during those events. During interviews, James was present and able to engage with me, despite ongoing delusions and voices interrupting our conversation. Michael and Andrew’s current struggles with SOP were less severe than Alisha’s and James’ because Michael and Andrew were not actively psychotic. I distinguish them from Cara because, unlike her, their ongoing difficulties with SOP seemed more noticeable and potentially disconcerting or confusing. In other words, most people would come away from an interaction with them with the sense that something unusual was going on. To briefly illustrate, Michael’s contradictions around planning for his next suicide attempt versus being determined to not kill himself and instead build a life for himself could be alarming and off-putting for others. As an example with Andrew, his ongoing contradictions about his sexual orientation (whether he is meant to be gay and his sexual orientation is fixed or changeable) indicate ongoing instability in a fundamental aspect of his self-identity. I do wonder whether Michael would have experienced more pronounced difficulties with SOP in the moment, such as seeing ghosts, if he had not taken

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multiple breaks when we talked about upsetting memories during the interviews. Thus, there is a possibility that Michael may be a little worse off than Andrew, but I am not sure there is a meaningful difference between them in terms of the severity of their developmental/structural disruptions in SOP. Cara has the least severe developmental/structural disruption. Cara displayed some difficulties with SOP while talking about trauma during our interviews; however, she was not in the least psychotic or delusional. All of the participants had been in the hospital for at least 6 months at the time of the interviews. While the hospital could be a stressful environment, in many ways it was less stressful than regular life, as it both removed the everyday hassles of taking care of oneself and offered a buffer from relationships or living situations that may have been abusive, harmful, or dangerous. Thus, in an environment that was more or less equally stressful for all of the participants, Cara seemed healthy and gave little to no indication that at times she could appear severely disturbed. I would not be surprised if, once outside of the hospital, Cara generally would appear healthier than the others when she is not experiencing stressors. Cara was close to being discharged and had a boyfriend and daughter she was planning on returning to. Thus, overall, Cara seemed to be the highest functioning participant based on level of symptomotology and quality of life she would return to once outside the hospital. The comparisons I made between participants’ severity of SOP disruption were conjectures based on my observations and experiences with the participants. The purpose of this study was not to compare the presentations of people with varying degrees of disruption in SOP. Future research could focus on people with more severe and disorganized presentations, such as James and Alisha, in order to empirically investigate the causes of their disturbances. In other words, we need to determine whether more severe disruptions in SOP can explain the differences in their presentation. If, for example, there are independent indications that such people are more severely disrupted, such as chart records documenting sexual abuse starting when they were 6 months old, then we would have additional evidence that very early trauma leads to a different (i.e., more severe) presentation in the room. Having empirical evidence for this connection would benefit clinicians; they would know to be alert for early trauma if they see such a presentation. Understanding differences in SOP accomplishment/disruption. We may be able to understand the current differences in disturbance between the participants by exploring

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differences in their childhoods. In this section I examine three potential influences of the severity of disruption in SOP (i.e., level of accomplishment of SOP development). These factors include: (1) the length of time development was able to progress normally without insult (i.e., how old a person was when traumatized); (2) the nature of the trauma or how overwhelming the traumas were; and (3) whether the person experienced some protective or positive influences that helped offset the insult. Age at onset of trauma. The longer a child proceeds without trauma, presumably the more SOP development he or she is able to accomplish. Thus, the age at which traumas started may be a factor in the severity of developmental/structural disruptions. Unfortunately, in most cases in the present study, we do not have the exact ages when traumas started, particularly physical and verbal abuse. Based on what we do know, my study offers some preliminary insights into the effects of age at which trauma started on disruptions in SOP. Beginning with the most severely disrupted participant, Alisha, we have clear memories of sexual abuse starting at age 2. We also have the abandonment and emotional neglect starting from birth that I described in my discussion of Alisha having almost no positive interactions with caregivers. James, the second most severely disrupted, was sexually abused starting at age 3. Michael described a particular incident of physical abuse that occurred when he was 7 or 8, however, the abuse almost certainly started before then. Furthermore, “creatures” abused Michael (most likely sexually) during the night starting at age two and a half. It is unclear when Andrew’s concerns with hiding his sexual orientation from his family started. He may have been sexually abused prior to the incidents that occurred when he was 10. Cara was likely traumatized early on by her father’s behavior, but the earliest incidents she provided ages for happened when she was 6 (her father beating her with a belt and the neighbor’s husband molesting her). Based on this information, it seems that the participants with the most severe disruptions in SOP, Alisha and James, also reported clear memories of abuse starting earlier than other participants. While Michael’s earliest memory of abuse is perhaps earlier than James’ by a half a year, Michael’s memories are confused and involve “creatures” rather than a known perpetrator. Cara’s memories of abuse seem to start the latest and she is the participant with the least disrupted SOP. Thus, while there are some indications from my study that the age at which abuse started plays a role, overall it is difficult to pinpoint when abuse, particularly subtle and/or ongoing

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abuse (such as verbal abuse) started. Leitner and colleagues (2000) suggested that there are critical developmental periods before children have fully mastered self versus other, SOP, and self-other constancy where trauma may freeze meaning-making, preventing someone from developing these constructs. They suggest that there are also periods where children have partially mastered these constructs. To date, no one has offered specific age ranges for these time periods or tested this aspect of EPCP theory. Future research could focus on exploring the relationship between the age when traumas started and severity of developmental/structural disruptions as well as whether there are critical age periods for developing self versus other, SOP, and self-other constancy. Nature of the trauma. The nature or severity of the traumas a person experienced may explain differences in the severity of developmental/structural disruptions. Sexual, physical, and verbal abuse all involve betrayal and confusion in the sense that an adult who is supposed to be a source of comfort and care (a secure base in attachment terms) is instead the source of pain, fear, and distress. Sexual trauma may be more disruptive because it involves one’s body being overpowered and violated in the most basic physical sense. Sexual abuse often involves transgression of the skin barrier. The skin barrier “puts certain things inside of me and other things outside of me,” (Leitner, 1997, p.42) making it one of our earliest ways of learning to distinguish self versus other. Based on the participants’ narratives, ongoing sexual abuse (particularly starting at an early age) might be related to more severe developmental/structural disruptions. The two participants with the most severe disruptions in SOP, Alisha and James, both experienced repeated sexual abuse starting at ages 2 and 3, respectively. On the opposite end of SOP disruption severity, the extent of Cara’s early sexual abuse includes one incident where a neighbor’s husband touched her inappropriately when she was 6. We can see a clear contrast in both the severity and duration of the sexual abuse experienced by the most disrupted and least disrupted participants. Future research could continue to advance our understanding the relationship between the nature of traumas experienced and subsequent difficulties with SOP and self-other constancy. Looking for patterns within groups of people who are comparable in specific ways might be useful. For instance, studies could investigate whether there are differences in clinical presentation depending on the type of early trauma (sexual, physical, or emotional abuse and

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neglect) people experienced. This research may be difficult, because, as we saw in the current study, abuse is rarely confined to one form. As I suggested, we might expect sexual abuse to be the most disruptive due to its violation of the skin barrier and its association with more severe disturbance in this study. Another approach would be to gather a group of people whose SOP difficulties strongly resemble each other’s, and look for similarities in their trauma histories. Extensiveness of trauma. Finally, we may be able to understand the current differences between participants by comparing the extensiveness of trauma (i.e., were all relationships only abusive). Unlike some participants, such as Alisha, who did not mention any caring relationships in her childhood, Cara remembers sharing positive experiences with her dad and stepdad when she was growing up. The caring interactions do not make her relationships with her dad and stepdad any less confusing, and their wildly inconsistent behavior would have made it difficult for her to develop SOP. However, at least during the positive experiences, she felt cared for and she would have experienced validation of who she was. Cara also had a grandmother who she lived with for periods of time, who sounded like a positive adult presence in her life. These affirmative relational experiences may have allowed Cara to develop a more stable (but still not strong) sense of self than the other participants. In other words, while her development of SOP was disrupted, she accomplished more progress than others. Thus, I would suggest that positive interactions with caregivers may be a crucial protective factor, lessening the severity of SOP disruptions. Another way of putting it is that near universal rejection, neglect, and/or abuse from caregivers exacerbates developmental/structural disruptions. If Alisha is the most disrupted, one key difference between her narrative and the others’ is the almost complete lack of positive or affirming relational experiences with adults during her childhood. Recall that, at birth, Alisha was abandoned by both of her parents. Alisha’s grandmother, a woman Alisha described as “alright,” and “didn’t say too much,” raised Alisha. Then Alisha’s mother started caring for Alisha and verbally and physically abusing her after Alisha’s grandmother died. Alisha described her interactions with her mother as follows: “She would hit me. Like it wasn’t bad enough that we didn’t talk and she didn’t say nothing to me. And when she did say something it was all negative.” We get the sense that, as a child, Alisha experienced minimal love, affirmation, and affection. While all the other participants experienced abuse during childhood as well, they also gave indications that not everything in their childhoods was terrible. Michael mentioned, “Even

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though my uncle tormented me and would holler and beat me and stuff, there was good times too, you know.” At another point, Michael said, “I remember just having regular days, playing with my sisters…Fun times, from 4 to 6, 7 whatever. But there was some good times and some bad times.” Andrew’s mother told him she loved him. He also said, “I miss my family. I miss em, I miss being around em, laughing and joking around and playing.” James’ splitting his parents into the (abusive) ones that raised him and his (good) real parents, suggests that he had some positive interactions parents that formed the basis for his image of his “real parents.” At one point James even said, “My parents loved me and everything.” Given that Alisha differed notably from the others in terms of her lack of positive early experiences and that she has the most severe developmental/structural disruptions in SOP, it seems that having some positive relational experiences with caregivers may be an important protective or mitigating factor in developmental/structural disruptions. Future research could explore whether there are consistent differences in the severity of SOP difficulties between people who experienced positive caregiver interactions, and those who did not. Just as disruptions in SOP are not all or nothing, the presence of positive interactions is rarely all or nothing. Thus, it is also likely that the extent and quality of positive relational experiences matters and may help to explain differences in subsequent struggles with SOP. As an example, I could compare Cara to Michael. Cara was actually loved and cared for by her father and stepfather when they were calm and/or sober and she recounted pleasant memories of enjoyable activities they shared. Michael referred to having some “good times” along with the bad ones but did not relate any specific caring or pleasant memories with caregivers. Cara experienced less severe disruptions in SOP than Michael. This is just one brief example that suggests that differences in positive caregiver experiences may be related to differences in disruptions in SOP. Future research could explore these connections more systematically and in greater depth, focusing on the quality of caregiver interactions. Implications. Looking at these three factors may help explain differences in the severity of difficulties with SOP. If persons’ development of SOP is less severely disrupted (i.e., traumas occurred later, injuries were less overwhelming, and/or they experienced positive relational influences), during calmer periods in their lives, they may appear to have normally developed SOP. However, during more stressful times, due to their underlying vulnerability, their struggles with SOP may emerge and they become symptomatic. Thus far, no one has investigated whether

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developmental/structural disruptions may vary in severity. The present study may provide the first empirical support for this aspect of EPCP theory. The present study ended up focusing on SOP and not directly implicating self-other constancy. Based on an EPCP understanding of severe disturbances, requiring that participants experienced psychosis increased the likelihood that they would have developmental/structural disruptions in SOP. EPCP theory also suggests that development of self versus other, SOP, and self-other constancy builds upon prior development, such that without SOP, one is likely to also struggle with self-other constancy. It seems that the participants’ difficulties with SOP were so problematic that self-other constancy was too advanced for them to struggle with. Future research could focus more on developmental/structural disruptions in self-other constancy by studying a less disturbed population, such as people who meet criteria for borderline personality disorder. An EPCP understanding of borderline personality disorder is that SOP is less severely disrupted such that the person only struggles with SOP when under stress (e.g., passing paranoia and dissociation). Self-other constancy is severely disrupted, causing more consistent difficulties (e.g., dichotomous thinking, unstable self-image, relational instability, alternating between idealizing and devaluing others). Completing research with people whose developmental/structural difficulties vary in severity could advance our understanding of the connections between early injuries and subsequent struggles. In theory, we should see trauma at different ages affecting development differently, with earlier trauma affecting SOP and later trauma affecting self-other constancy. Having a better understanding of the connections between specific variables of early trauma and subsequent struggles with SOP could be quite useful for clinicians in terms of providing them with hypotheses to guide their explorations of clients’ histories. If we see a client struggling with SOP in certain ways or that his or her struggles are more severe, as clinicians we should be alert to the possibility that trauma occurred at a particular age or that there was a particular type of trauma (e.g., sexual). This is helpful because it gives us an idea of the traumatic experiences that may have to be addressed in order to help the person develop SOP. For instance, if we are able to identify specific critical age periods, then clinicians would have a better sense of what to ask about and what time periods to focus on, based on a participants’ struggles. Knowing more about the effects of specific types of traumas could help ensure that therapists do not overlook any significant early experiences. Given how James and Cara denied

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sexual abuse until I specifically asked about the information documented in their charts, having a sense that a client was sexually abused could be valuable. Of course, as with all clinical hypotheses, these would need to be gently explored with clients and are subject to client invalidation. Understanding differences in severity of disturbance and emergence of SOP difficulties. Subsequent life experiences also influence the trajectory of someone who experienced developmental/structural disruptions of SOP. For example, additional traumas or stressors later in life as well as corrective relational experiences could increase or decrease struggles with developmental/structural disruptions. Exploring the precipitators or triggers of severe SOP difficulties might help us answer the question of why people become more disturbed when they do. Subsequent traumas and stressors. As I previously discussed, EPCP theory suggests that developmental/structural disruptions are not absolute. Rather, for people who have achieved some level of SOP, such as Cara, SOP difficulties may manifest during times of stress, leaving them looking fairly normal or healthy when life is smooth. While the current study provided preliminary evidence for this notion, further research is needed to more fully understand the relationship between subsequent stressors/trauma and SOP difficulties. It could be useful to investigate whether there are differences among people with developmental/structural disruptions based on how traumatic or stressful their lives continue to be through adulthood. In other words, if life is smoother and less stressful for one person than another, does the person with the smoother life end up struggling less with SOP and/or self-other constancy? As I already explained, Cara became severely disturbed during stressful times when she experienced numerous traumas. Thus, subsequent traumas seemed to elicit difficulties with SOP. We cannot know the answer for Cara, but it is interesting to wonder whether she would have experienced severe struggles with SOP (i.e., psychosis) during adolescence and adulthood if she had not also experienced so many additional stressors and traumas. Research could attempt to answer this question by comparing groups of people with similar initial disruptions in SOP development, seeing if people with relatively smoother, calmer lives struggle less with SOP than people who experience numerous additional stressors and/or traumas. Based on EPCP theory, I would expect people with more stressful lives to experience more ongoing difficulties with SOP. However, the question of whether there is an association between more stressors and worse

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struggles with SOP needs to be empirically investigated. In addition to this question, there are two others to consider. Another possibility is that the stressors of life are rougher for people with SOP difficulties. If this were the case, then we might expect to see SOP struggles emerge around stressors that most people (i.e., people with adequate development of SOP) would endure without significant impairment. Finally, it is possible that people with SOP difficulties unintentionally create an environment in which they will experience more SOP difficulties. For example, if a person’s parent was physically and emotionally abusive, this person might seek out romantic partners who are similarly physically and emotionally abusive. Based on EPCP theory, I would expect that people with disruptions in SOP who live in an environment where they are repeatedly injured in ways resembling the original traumas that disrupted development would likely experience ongoing difficulties with SOP. Empirically testing these three possibilities will help us understand if and how subsequent stressors and traumas are related to struggles with SOP. At this point I will shift to discussing immediate precipitators or triggers of SOP difficulties. Precipitators/triggers. The current study focused on whether difficulties with developmental/structural disruptions are in fact associated with early trauma and not on the question of what triggers the emergence of severe difficulties with SOP (e.g., psychotic breaks). However, I can offer observations and raise questions that may help guide future research on this issue. Two areas that may prove to be useful for understanding triggers (i.e., why people become disturbed when they do) are the nature of subsequent traumas and the use of hallucinogens. Nature of subsequent traumas. All traumas have relational implications. There are some traumas that are caused within human interactions, such as physical, sexual, and emotional abuse. As these traumas occur within a relationship between two humans, they are directly relational. There are other traumas that we might refer to as “acts of God,” such as car accidents or natural disasters, which are not caused within a relationship, but will still affect a survivor’s relationships (i.e., indirectly relational). Directly relational traumas are also indirectly relational because they too affect the survivor’s relationships with other people. All of the stressors or traumas that precipitated Cara’s SOP difficulties during and after adolescence were directly relational in nature (mostly she was hurt, betrayed, or abandoned by people she should have been able to trust). The early traumas that initially disrupted her

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development of SOP were also directly relational. One question for future research is whether indirectly relational trauma would cause as severe SOP difficulties, or trigger SOP difficulties at all. Using Cara as an example, my question would be: would she have ended up psychotic if she had experienced traumas such as a car accident or natural disaster instead of abuse from her parents or attempted sexual assault? I would expect the answer has to do with the extent and nature of the early disruption in SOP development. Future research could investigate the nature of traumas that can trigger SOP difficulties in adulthood and whether (or how closely) they have to be related to earlier traumas. More specifically, after obtaining extensive descriptions of early traumas (similarly to the present study) researchers could follow participants, carefully observing the conditions under which subsequent struggles with SOP emerge. Psychoactive drugs. In terms of precipitators, psychoactive drugs may contribute to the emergence of SOP difficulties in people with developmental/structural disruptions. All of the participants abused substances. Cara, Alisha, Michael, and Andrew used marijuana. (James may have used marijuana as well because his diagnosis included polysubstance abuse. However, he only mentioned using alcohol in our interviews.) For Andrew in particular, using marijuana seemed to elicit SOP difficulties. After his mother’s death, Andrew described a pattern of using marijuana that was “laced,” hallucinating (i.e., experiencing difficulties with SOP), and ending up in the hospital. This happened four times. In the 2 years prior to her admission to Woodside, Cara reported becoming psychotic after using Lortabs (acetaminophen and hydrocodone) and after using heroin laced with bath salts. (These psychotic breaks occurred during a very stressful time in Cara’s life: she was robbed, she broke up with an abusive boyfriend, an ex stalked her, and she was abused and cheated on by another boyfriend.) Perhaps, for people with developmental/structural disruptions in SOP, the effects of substances such as marijuana are more likely to interact with or trigger severe difficulties with SOP. Future research could investigate the relationship between psychoactive substances and the emergence of SOP struggles. Implications. Having a better understanding of these connections could assist clinicians in helping clients with disruptions in SOP anticipate and plan for stressful events. Even just knowing ahead of time that a stressor or trauma may elicit severe disturbances could make the ensuing struggles less frightening and more predictable. Future research could investigate whether predicting difficulties with SOP reduces the distress associated with them. By having

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support systems in place, people with disruptions in SOP may be able to weather the stresses of life without moments of severe disturbance completely upsetting their lives and having to be hospitalized. Future research could investigate whether or not support systems actually ameliorate the stressors of life for people who struggle with SOP and if there is an effect on hospitalization rates. Additional research is also needed to determine the consequences of using psychoactive drugs for people with disruptions in SOP. If it turns out that using psychoactive drugs carries significant risk for people with disruptions in SOP, then clinicians can warn clients and help them find healthier alternatives for coping. Subsequent healing experiences. Just as positive relational experiences may offset early disruptions in SOP, we may expect healthy, caring relationships later in life to allow people to perhaps strengthen or advance their development of SOP. Looking at the effects of healing relational experiences would also be important in furthering our understanding of developmental/structural disruptions. Studies could explore how caring relationships (with friends, family, romantic partners, and/or therapists) affect the trajectory of people’s difficulties with developmental/structural disruptions. Healing relational experiences may result in difficulties with SOP becoming less severe (e.g., no longer psychotic) and less frequent. People may become less vulnerable, such that it would take more extreme stressors or traumas to elicit SOP difficulties. Future studies could explore the effects of healing relational experiences on difficulties with SOP. Another implication of the current study is that some people with more severe struggles with SOP, like Alisha, may be difficult to understand until they have dealt with some of these difficulties. Therapy may be critical for helping people, like Alisha, get to a place where others can understand them. There were moments when I felt disoriented and confused during my interviews with Alisha. My understanding is that, at those times, I was reflecting Alisha’s experience of having a tenuous sense of self (a consequence of severe and extensive disruptions in her development of SOP). Using a developmental/structural disruption lens helped me understand Alisha and my experience with her. If I were her therapist, having a way to make meaning out of my confusion would be important. Without a way of understanding her, I might be tempted to disregard her experiences as meaningless and the possibility of us connecting as hopeless. In my experience working in a state psychiatric hospital, more severely disturbed clients were more likely to be viewed as poor candidates for therapy and receive only supportive,

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problem-solving therapy. Future research could investigate whether providing clinicians with a theoretical framework that promotes empathy and the idea that people with more severe disturbances are not fundamentally different but simply more traumatized affects how they approach therapy with such clients. If Alisha took part in therapy that helped her make meaning out of her early traumas and form a core sense of self, the confusion and disorganization she experiences should diminish, and, by extension, the experience for another person of being with her should be less disorienting and more coherent. Future research is needed to investigate the effects of therapy on struggles with SOP. The more evidence we have to support the effectiveness of EPCP for people with severe disturbances, the more likely this often neglected population is to receive these valuable services and the more difficult it will be to write them off as hopeless or as only responding to psychotropic drugs. Self-other permanence and adulthood. Leitner (1997) suggested that once we have “mastered” construing self and other in particular ways (as separate, permanent, and constant) we are unlikely to lose these ways of construing or struggle with these issues during times of stress. Adults can still experience trauma. Currently EPCP theory does not address how trauma of all kinds (both directly and indirectly relational) that occurs during adulthood affects SOP (and self-other constancy) in adults that did not experience developmental/structural disruptions during childhood. Understanding how adult trauma affects SOP (or self-other constancy) for people who already have solid SOP (or self-other constancy) development is an important area to explore. With enough trauma, anyone might show symptomatology. Recall that we may consider the flashbacks of posttraumatic stress disorder as lying on a continuum of responses to trauma, with hallucinations being the more extreme end (Kilcommons & Morrison, 2005; Read et al., 2005). In this study, I demonstrated that EPCP theory may be used to conceptualize severe disturbances, such as hallucinations, that result from early trauma. A logical extension would be to apply EPCP theory and its concepts of SOP and self-other constancy to understanding the consequences of trauma in adulthood. Future research in this area could focus on populations such as survivors of adult sexual assault or veterans (currently there is a high incidence of military sexual trauma, so we could expect overlap among veterans). Exploring SOP and self-other constancy before and after combat service in soldiers who achieved healthy development of SOP and self-other constancy during childhood could help us

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identify how trauma affects these constructs in adults. In survivors of sexual assault, we could try to understand how things have changed for them after the incident. If SOP turns out to be susceptible to disruption at later points in our lives, then understanding SOP can be helpful for clinicians working with adult trauma survivors. Being aware that a client may be struggling with SOP can help clinicians empathize and understand their client’s experience more deeply. It can also assist clinicians in making predictions about how clients will experience separations. Anticipating client reactions, sharing these anticipations with clients, and then processing clients’ actual reactions could strengthen the therapeutic alliance and provide comfort to clients as it might enable them to understand their own experiences better and with greater self-compassion. Future research could look at whether predicting clients’ reactions based upon an understanding of SOP actually helps clients. Conclusion To summarize, participants’ struggles with severe disturbances can be meaningfully understood using the EPCP concept of developmental/structural disruptions of SOP. Participants survived childhoods characterized by invalidation, neglect, and abuse (physical, verbal, and sexual). We can see connections between these early traumas and disruptions in SOP as struggles with SOP often emerged in the present when discussing traumas of the past. If there is anything this project has confirmed, it is that people with severe psychological disturbances struggle for a reason. They are no different from you or me. If we had to deal with the incomprehensible horrors they negotiated at such young ages, we too would probably appear disturbed and struggle with questions of permanence.

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Appendix A

Informed Consent for Participants

STUDY TITLE: Exploring Developmental/Structural Disruptions

PRIMARY RESEARCHER: Julia R. Lonoff, M.A. FACULTY ADVISOR: Larry Leitner, Ph.D.

Description of Research This project is intended to serve as culminating research for a Ph.D. dissertation in Clinical Psychology. It will be conducted under the supervision of Larry Leitner, Ph.D. ([email protected]).

This research is intended to explore the how people’s early relational experiences relate to subsequent psychological struggles.

You are being asked to participate in this research study because you are currently receiving psychological services. Your participation in this study is strictly voluntary and does not affect the services you will receive from Woodside State Hospital either now or in the future.

Research Process If you choose to participate, you will engage in a series of 2 private, confidential interviews, of 60-90 minutes duration each. All interviews will be audio-taped. If at any time during the interview you would like the interviewer to turn off the recording device, you are free to do so. The interviews will be audio-taped and transcribed so that the information shared can be used by the principal investigator.

You will be asked questions about your early childhood relationships, current relationships, and psychological symptoms.

Respect for Participants’ Rights and Well-being Participation is strictly voluntary and you may decline to participate in any interview at any time during this study. There will be no penalty for discontinuing participation. The services you receive at Woodside State Hospital will not be affected in any way if you decide to discontinue participation in this research. Should you decide to withdraw from the study, you may inform the primary investigator, Julia Lonoff at [email protected], or her faculty advisor, Larry Leitner at 513-529-2410 or [email protected], or the director of psychological services, (Director’s name) at (Director’s phone number) or (Director’s email address).

There are no foreseeable risks for participating in this study, although talking about certain experiences may be upsetting to some people. If you experience distress, you are encouraged to contact your therapist, Julia Lonoff or other members of the Woodside State Hospital psychology staff, and/or Woodside State Hospital staff.

There is no deception involved in this study.

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Your confidentiality will be protected. Only the primary investigator and her faculty advisor will have access to your name and contact information. Except your signed consent form, all other material from your interviews, including digital audio recordings and transcripts will be coded with a pseudonym. Your name will not be associated with this information at any point in the research process and any identifying information that you mention will be removed. The only people who may have access to the coded materials will be the principal investigator, her faculty advisors and/or select few clinical graduate or undergraduate student research assistants involved in this project. Audio recordings and transcripts will be kept in a locked cabinet for the duration of the study, after which they will be destroyed. Moreover, your signed consent form will always be stored separately from the audio recording and transcript. All information will remain confidential unless there is a risk of harm to yourself and/or others.

If there are any questions regarding this study, please contact Julia Lonoff at [email protected] or her faculty advisor, Larry Leitner at 513-529-2410 or [email protected]. If there are any questions regarding your rights as a research participant, contact the Miami University Office for the Advancement of Research and Scholarship at 513- 529-3600.

______I acknowledge that I am 18 years or older. I have read the preceding statements and I agree to participate.

______I give my permission for the researcher to quote from my interview responses I contribute, verbatim, in part or in whole in any reports of this research (including papers presented at professional conferences, articles in professional journals, or book chapters). Prior to completion of the doctoral dissertation or publication of any related articles, I am free to withdraw this consent for any reason. There is no penalty associated with withdrawing this consent.

______Signature of participant Date

______Signature of primary researcher Date

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Appendix B

PARTICIPANTS NEEDED

Hi, my name is Julie and I’m a graduate student of clinical psychology. I’m completing a Doctoral level research project on the role of early relationships in the development of psychological struggles.

Would you like the opportunity to be interviewed about your life story, with a focus on your early relationships and psychological struggles?

If so, and if you are currently receiving individual therapy, I would be interested in talking to you about participating in my dissertation project.

The study consists of two 60-90 minute interviews.

Whether you decide to participate or not will have no effect on the services you receive here at Woodside State Hospital.

All information is kept confidential.

Please let your therapist or the nursing staff on your unit know if you would like to speak with me. They will let me know and I will set up a time to meet with you.

Thank you for your interest, and I hope to meet you soon! Contact: Julie Lonoff, M.A. [email protected]

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Appendix C

Potential Interview Topics

What is the story of your psychological struggles?  How did you come to be in Woodside State Hospital?  When did your struggles start?  What was going on then? o Were there things that happened to you before X, that X reminded you of?  What are you currently struggling with?  How do you understand your struggles? Tell me about your life. What is your story?  What was your childhood like? o Who could you go to for comfort/support?  Tell me about your parents.  What was your role in the family?  What is your earliest memory? Tell me about your current relationships.  Who do you feel close to? o Who understands/has understood you? What’s that like?  What happens when you feel close to someone else?  What happens when you or they get angry or sad? o Tell me about a time when…(someone was angry/sad; you were angry/sad)  What happens when you feel distant from them? Follow up Questions:  What was/is that like for you?  Can you tell me more about that?  Does that remind you of anyone?/Does that experience remind you of earlier ones?/Does that feel familiar?

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Appendix D

Debriefing Form Thank you for your participation in this study. Much of clinical psychology is concerned with understanding human struggles and their origins. Psychologists have developed many theories for conceptualizing the human experience. This study is based on a particular theory that assumes: (1) our early relational experiences influence how we relate to others as adults, and (2) when we are struggling to connect with others, we may develop psychological symptoms. The purpose of this study is to gain a better understanding of how early relational injuries relate to current psychological struggles. While much research has focused on the role of early experiences in the development of psychological struggles, much less has focused on describing specific early relational injuries and how they relate to specific subsequent psychological struggles. This research attempts to fill in the gap by exploring the impact of clients’ early relational injuries on their current psychological struggles. If the conversations have caused you any distress, please discuss it with the researcher or your current therapist. Psychology and nursing staff at Woodside State Hospital are also available to support you. If you have any questions or concerns about this research, please contact Julie Lonoff at ([email protected]), or Dr. Larry Leitner (faculty advisor) at 513-529-2410. If you have questions about your rights as a research participant, please contact the Office for the Advancement of Research and Scholarship at 513-529-3600. Thanks again for your participation.

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Appendix E

Writing Activity

Using the space below (and additional paper if needed), please spend some time writing about your most significant early experience.

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Appendix F

Transcripts of Interviews with James

[“Mm-hmmm,” indicates yes or agreement. “Mm-mm,” indicates no or disagreement.]

First Interview with James

JULIE: So I thought we could start with you telling about how you ended up here. You want to start there?

JAMES: Yeah I’d love to.

JULIE: Okay.

JAMES: I’ve been in over 1200 battles and when I count it up, 74 wars. Almost all of them involved in the Middle East, in the name of Jerusalem. I served with the- I was attached to the captains of Israel. They are the special forces military of the Israeli Army. And, we were fighting the militant Muslims, particularly Sunnis, some Shiites that would engage us in combat, but um. And I was. My memory is messed up because it is not clear, because of um, some of the things that I went through in combat. But like the way I ended up here, I’m sorry, I’m not trying to make this drawn out.

JULIE: That’s okay.

JAMES: The way I ended up in combat or the way I ended up here was uh, there was um, a time when I came home from a bar, and I was just sitting there. All of a sudden something hit me- I was like, my friends, not like my friends I grew up with, but my friends in the Marines and in the Seals and in the Delta Force Army, the ones that served with me in the Delta Force Army, that I wasn’t as close to, but still. My friends are dead. Young men, as-

JULIE: Young men who were as young as 18 years old?

JAMES: Young men who were as young as 18 years old, who were willing to die, to save me, and to save America’s freedom and the freedom of liberty in general, were dead. And here I was just coming back, drunk and, I was just drunk and not really doing a lot with my life that I could see at that time. And so I took- ha [chuckles] a Red Hot Chili Peppers CD – Californication with the song “Scar Tissue” on it. And I snapped it in half and I slit my wrists. And then I was like – oh yeah, my brothers my brothers my brothers. [mumbles]

JULIE: I’m sorry- what did you say?

JAMES: And then I was like – oh yeah, my brothers, my blood brothers. I was like – oh my god, I gotta’ live for them. They were what I had to keep going for.

JULIE: You had to keep going for them, yeah.

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JAMES: And so I called 911, and they were like, and so I talked to the dispatch. And the dispatch [mumbles]. And I talked to an officer for a little bit, for a little while, and he told me just to stay calm and not to uh, kill myself again. I’m not a borderline cutter, I was cutting to kill myself. So, some of the scars there [points to inner wrists].

JULIE: Yeah

JAMES: Through the veins.

JULIE: You really wanted to die.

JAMES: Yeah I really wanted to die. I didn’t feel that I was was, you know, that I was. I didn’t know why I was alive. And not to question god, but I didn’t want to be alive and have them dead. So, after I called 911, I was talking to a 911 paramedic suicide officer, whatever title they have. I’m not quite sure. Um, they sent an ambulance and they sent a fire truck as well. I don’t know why they did that. They sent an ambulance [mumbles] and they also sent a police car, and um and they took me over to the hospital, to see if I need stitches and they determined that the cut wasn’t wide enough, it wasn’t a big enough gap to need stitches. And so I just um, [pause] I um, went from, the hospital, at Glenview. it was called, I can’t even remember what it was called. St. Paul’s or something. I went from there to Central Village Mental Health inpatient hospital. [mumbles] And I was there for about 10 days or 14, between a week and two weeks. And the whole time they were like, my doctor had come to me and she was like, well

JULIE: Sorry, you saw your doctor what?

JAMES: I saw my doctor would come in to talk to me every couple of days. And she was like, and I was like- look doctor these medicines aren’t working. And um, she was like- well you have schizoaffective.

JULIE: You have schizoaffective?

JAMES: That’s what she said. That’s not what I have, I have bipolar II. But,

JULIE: They said that or bi-polar II?

JAMES: No, I said THEY said that. I don’t have that. I have bipolar II.

JULIE: You have bipolar II.

JAMES: Yeah, um. She kept on saying – are you suicidal? And I said yes. She goes. I go- can I go home? And she’d be like – no. And I’m like – look just let me out of this hospital, please. I don’t do well in these hospital stays. They really, um, gimme uh, like sensory deprivation [chuckles] disorder. And she goes, well I can’t let you go if you’re suicidal still. And I said, “Okay, is there a hospital I can go to?” And I go “what about a hospital in Woodside. Because I heard there’s a clinic there.” And she goes, “well we could send you to a place in Woodside”.

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And she goes – “that’s for dual-diagnosis.” Both substance abuse, because I’m an alcoholic, and um, and um, [pause] and I have, whatever they. I think it’s, I think it’s comorbid posttraumatic stress, but I don’t know.

JULIE: Comorbid with posttraumatic stress?

JAMES: Yeah. But like, so anyway I was there and she goes. I go- I cannot be in these hospitals, do you promise me? And she goes- I promise it won’t be any longer than 1 month.

JULIE: Okay.

JAMES: And so they sent me to St. Mary’s. It’s either in this county or I don’t know if you’ve heard of St. Mary’s?

JULIE: I haven’t.

JAMES: Okay well it’s a, it’s a hospital that’s run by nuns. It’s a treatment facility for rehab. And then I was there for like 4 days [chuckles] or something. And they’re like- you’re fine, you’re better now. And I was like [mumbles]

JULIE: You said, yeah I am?

JAMES: Yeah, I was like, yeah I’m better. Yeah, I’m feeling a lot just being in this environment and knowing that there are places to go to. And they go. And they told the sheriff- go ahead and take him back to Central Village. So either he just made a mistake or it was a deliberate act, but he brought me here to Woodside. And this place is crap. I mean from a patient’s point of view, this place isn’t communist, this place isn’t socialist, this place is criminal. At least on my floor. So I’m sorry, I can’t talk about Woodside in general. You’re, you’re always a professional. But on my floor, on 421 A. [chuckles]. There is no therapy there. The only time that there is anything therapeutic is when you or um, I talk to Jenny, or um [pause] or uh, that woman with blond hair.

JULIE: Mary?

JAMES: Maybe Mary, I think she see’s (patient x).

JULIE: Oh, that’s Kate.

JAMES: Yeah, Kate who sees (patient x). That’s the only time I ever see anything therapeutic go on at all. And so anyway, that’s how I ended up here was a mistake.

JULIE: Yeah.

JAMES: They told him, take him back to Central Village and so he brings me to Woodside. And here I am. I’ve been here for a year and it’s a 3 month program.

JULIE: You’ve been stuck here.

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JAMES: Yes.

JULIE: Yeah. So, and initially that all started with you being suicidal and trying to kill yourself.

JAMES: Yeah, and since I’ve been here I’ve tried to kill myself 8 times.

JULIE: Really.

JAMES: Yeah, I’ve taken my belt and wrapped it around my throat and just asphyxiated myself.

JULIE: Uh huh. You’ve done that 8 times?

JAMES: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Are you still feeling suicidal?

JAMES: Until I leave here I will be.

JULIE: Okay. So you mentioned that, um, you said that when you were first put in the hospital after slicing your wrists, you said, “I don’t do well in these places.”

JAMES: No I don’t

JULIE: You’ve been in hospitals before?

JAMES: For years for misdiagnosis.

JULIE: When was the first time you were hospitalized?

JAMES: [sigh] That was in 2004

JULIE: Okay, for being schizoaffective?

JAMES: I had a nervous breakdown, for what?

JULIE: You said they had labeled you as schizoaffective. I’m sorry –go on. So in 2004 you had a breakdown?

JAMES: Nervous breakdown.

JULIE: What happened?

JAMES: I watched this mini series called “Left Behind” [chuckled] and I was like. Who the fuck are these people to pretend like they know how god is going to make things happen. You know, like, um, this is fucking ridiculous. Pardon my language.

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JULIE: Swear all you want, it doesn’t bother me.

JAMES: Okay [chuckles] and I was like – these people were insane and there’s going to be all kinds of people who are going to go to church and worship Kurt Cameron. And I was like, no! [chuckles] and I had a nervous breakdown. I saw it like in my own (way) [mumbles]

JULIE: What do you mean by a nervous breakdown?

JAMES: I was just like twitching and stuff. And I said to my mom, like yeah Mom, I’m the devil.

JULIE: You said, Mom I’m the devil?

JAMES: Yeah and she’s like, No you’re probably not and I was like- no just watch the movie and they’re going to call me the devil. And so [chuckles] and she was like – well you probably need to go to a hospital then. And so I went to Memphis and she labeled me as schizoaffective because I wasn’t really coherent. I was especially not coherent after being given high doses of, shots of either Haldol or Thorazine. And she never actually gave me a chance to calm down and smoke a few cigarettes and I’d been on medicines for a week. To actually get an accurate diagnosis. She had me shot up with so many antipsychotics and then she labels me as schizoaffective. Not even looking at the D criterion, which means [chuckles] not due to alcohol or medications.

JULIE: So you are saying you were, she thought you were schizoaffective because of all the alcohol and drugs you were on.

JAMES: Not the drugs I was on but the medications.

JULIE: The medications.

JAMES: I hadn’t been drinking.

JULIE: The medications that she had shot you up with.

JAMES: I was like, well that doesn’t sound right at all. I had no separation of my mind from my body. That’s what you call the third eye schizo.

JULIE: What?

JAMES: That’s what you call having the mind’s eye schizo.

JULIE: That’s what you call having the mind’s eye schizo, is separation-

JAMES: No, seriously anybody that has a third eye, if they would be interviewed and talked to by a psychologist, you would be called schizophrenic.

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JULIE: Do you have a third eye?

JAMES: It’s called the pinall gland (pine – all)

JULIE: The what?

JAMES: It’s called the pinal gland. It’s referred to as the mind’s eye.

JULIE: Oh, the mind’s eye. Okay, I’m not familiar with that.

JAMES: Okay, it’s like on a dollar bill. [pulls out dollar bill and points to eye] See that eye right there? That represents the mind’s eye.

JULIE: Oh, okay. And there’s something about, if you have that, people will think

JAMES: Then people will think you are schizophrenic. Because you um, you go into, other states of consciousness that you wouldn’t otherwise have.

JULIE: You see things that other people don’t see.

JAMES: No, not necessarily that, you just go to different levels of consciousness.

JULIE: Oh, okay, and so when that happens for you

JAMES: So it would be more like a delusion, and yeah, ever since I’ve been here. I mean ever since probably the fifth or sixth month I’ve been here, I’ve been seeing things. Those also can be called sensory deprivation syndrome because there is nothing in this hospital to do or to see except for to sit outside in the sun and drink coffee and drink soda.

JULIE: So what do you see?

JAMES: I see visions of my brothers. I worry about my brothers all the time.

JULIE: Military, or?

JAMES: See, I don’t know.

JULIE: Or the brothers, do you have brothers?

JAMES: Oh, like my brothers in military?

JULIE: Or like the brothers from your family?

JAMES: I’m talking about my brothers from my family.

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JULIE: Oh, okay.

JAMES: I do worry about my friends from my, my brothers from the Marines and my brothers from the Seals. I was a scout sniper predominantly.

JULIE: I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to redirect you. So you were saying you see your brothers.

JAMES: I see visions of my youngest brother who is in the marines. Um, going around doing, these things that like, it’s like he has a changed face.

JULIE: A changed face?

JAMES: He looks so much younger, and it’s really cool. I want to see him so much, but I can’t see him in here. I can’t get the money to get on a plane to go out there and see him.

JULIE: You can’t get the money to get on a plane and go out there and see him?

JAMES: No, I’m in here.

JULIE: Yeah. Where is he?

JAMES: He’s in Oregon. I mean deployed, I don’t know.

JULIE: So your youngest brother.

JAMES: Is in the marines.

JULIE: How old is he?

JAMES: He’s 22.

JULIE: What’s his name?

JAMES: Carl.

JULIE: So what do you see him doing when you see him?

JAMES: I just see him walking by [chuckles] I see him. One time he goes, I heard [laughs] I heard him say something off in the distance, he goes – it’s like – Whoa! I almost threw up my own waste when I saw that.

JULIE: I almost threw up my own waste?

JAMES: I almost threw up my own waste when I saw that [chuckles], I just hear him say different things like that [mumbles] – (laughing my ass off)

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JULIE: Are those things he’s said to you in real life?

JAMES: No, I just hear different voices. So that’s how I ended up here. And I had to get an accurate diagnosis. And I have it now and it’s bipolar II.

JULIE: Bipolar II, okay. That fits your experience?

JAMES: [mumbles] So.

JULIE: So I was curious to hear more about your history, the history of being hospitalized and you also mentioned that you, you’re an alcoholic.

JAMES: Yeah, um, okay. I’m addicted to whiskey.

JULIE: You’re addicted to whiskey.

JAMES: I mean like beer and wine just makes me feel stupid. And uh, rum just like – oh where’s my girlfriend [chuckles] and I’m just kidding- sorry. And uh, but whiskey, I love the stuff like the way it makes me feel is just such a strong buzz. And um there’s like, there’s some, it’s not even like it’s in my mind, it’s like it’s in my body. So it’s like once I have one drink I have to have like two, three or four tumblers.

JULIE: It’s a natural instinct, once you have one drink?

JAMES: Yeah it’s not like it’s in my mind. It’s like something like physically, biologically. I have to have at least two or three if not four tumbler of Jameson’s 12 year reserve.

JULIE: So, when did you start drinking?

JAMES: When I was 21- well when I was 16. Um, and now I’m 32.

JULIE: What was going on when you were 16?

JAMES: Um, I was just bored and I was like, I’ll get (Fucked up. So drunk.)

JULIE: So, you were bored.

JAMES: Yeah, and so I just got drunk and I was like, well I was by myself. I was just like an alcoholic drinking.

JULIE: From the get-go

JAMES: From the get-go. And, [pause] I couldn’t, ever get back that original feeling. [mumbles] That one wasn’t even whiskey, it was vodka. I still remember it was vodka and orange juice and Mountain Dew. And I’m sorry if I’m steering this conversation in the wrong direction.

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JULIE: No, why would you say that?

JAMES: Because I know that you mentioned it had to do with relationships. And so I didn’t want to be wasting your time.

JULIE: Oh, no, that’s fine. Where would you like to steer it?

JAMES: I would like to tell you about my first time drinking.

JULIE: Sure.

JAMES: How good it felt, and um, how much, [pause] how much, um, how much relief I got from it. And then so I started drinking.

JULIE: Relief, relief from what?

JAMES: Just from everything. I just always feel like, really tense. It’s probably, I mean it was probably because I was manic-depressive or whatever. It was, it was just like this feeling like, [long pause], It was just like this feeling that everything was okay.

JULIE: That’s what the vodka gave you.

JAMES: Yeah.

JULIE: But you said it just, to get some relief and you said relief from being really tense. What else was, I mean, relief- that sounds like there were things you wanted to get away from.

JAMES: Yeah, I just never enjoyed being alive really

JULIE: I would drink too.

JAMES: Have you ever had that problem?

JULIE: Of drinking too much? No.

JAMES: You’re fortunate.

JULIE: Thanks. But it sounds like your drinking was a reaction to your life.

JAMES: Mm-hmmm

JULIE: It was pretty awful.

JAMES: yeah.

JULIE: At 16.

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JAMES: Mm-hmmm [long pause]

JULIE: What’s going on?

JAMES: I don’t know, it’s weird because I’m trying to think back to when I was younger. I mean like, my parents loved me and everything. I just, I just never understood anything.

JULIE: Never understood anything.

JAMES: No.

JULIE: Felt really confused?

JAMES: Pretty much, about like, you know, like, I’d just be watching people and be like – what the fuck are you doing? It was like, I was like, it was everything just seemed like some schizophrenic circus. Where I’d go, I’d be like [laughs] am I the only sane person here? And just stuff like that. I don’t know like, I’m not, I don’t have anti-social personality disorder but like, it just seemed like, nobody knew anything about making their lives actually better, you know like. Okay I grew up in Alsip after around ‘79 or ‘80. Before then I lived in Bradley Kentucky and Georgia, which was near fort Knox. There’d be like these really wealthy people, and I’m just like, [laughs] they don’t do anything to get wealthy [laughs] I was like- your parents, I was like- all your parents do is steal money from people who are actually working and then you get to drive around in BMW and you’re 16 years old, and you’re driving it drunk and high on cocaine at the same time, you fucking asshole. And just things like that [chuckles] like the whole time I was growing up. It was like a really wealthy community and I was, you know a first generation immigrant. From Mayo.

JULIE: You’re from what?

JAMES: County Mayo in Ireland. And uh, so, I’m like, they uh, people over there treasure life and like, love and peace and happiness. But they’re always ready to go to war, if they have to. And so I have a lot of Irish sensibilities in me.

JULIE: What does that mean?

JAMES: Well, just the humor, the humor of life, and you know teasing people and teasing the ones you care about. And it’s just like, they um, just like Carpe Diem should be the motto for Ireland.

JULIE: But so, you were

JAMES: So I grew up with all these Irish sensibilities and not having a lot of money but still like loving life. And so to finish that, like, there was this feeling of um, when I came over here, okay like. I was born. They said no deception in this interview, I’m sorry. I was born on April the 7th,

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1974, in Mayo. But then I came to the United States at the age of like 1 or 2, and then on October 4th 1979, is when I was [pause] enlisted into the military intelligence.

JULIE: When you were seven, eight, nine years old?

JAMES: No, when I was a lot younger than that. When I was like, five. I was five years old. I took some aptitude tests and they’re like, well, can use you to do this or this or this [mumbles] and so that’s how that happened. I’m sorry I’m rambling here.

JULIE: That’s okay.

JAMES: I just never, I never understood Americans.

JULIE: What was so confusing?

JAMES: The way they take everything for granted, you know?

JULIE: Like, what do Americans take for granted?

JAMES: Their freedom, Or their loved ones. Okay like, in Ireland, when somebody dies, they have an Irish wake and you celebrate their life. You know and here. Yes it’s natural to be sad when someone you know and love and care about dies. But like, I just grew up around all these rich people who would always be like so sad, but you know it was like they were sad for themselves. And it might be a very pretentious thing to say, that. I never got anybody. Nobody ever made sense to me.

JULIE: Nobody ever made sense to you.

JAMES: No, it was probably my moods.

JULIE: I don’t know.

JAMES: What do you think it might be?

JULIE: Well, I think that, in my experience when people have trouble making sense out of other people, it might be because they have had a lot of experiences that actually didn’t make sense with people when they were growing up.

JAMES: Mm-hmmm

JULIE: When people are very inconsistent or do strange things, we have trouble learning how to make sense out of people.

JAMES: Yeah, my dad, the guy who, not my father, but the man who raised me used to beat the shit out of me with a belt. And then my mom just threw me in my room. The woman who raised me.

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JULIE: your mom would what in your room?

JAMES: Well, they weren’t my blood relatives (but I call them my mom and dad). Well the man who raised me, the father who raised me, would beat the hell out of me [chuckles] for tapping my fingers, I feel like. [taps fingers on desk] Like when you get real bored, or something you just. He would go “stop it.” And I would keep on doing it. I wouldn’t even be paying attention, I would just do it without, without. It’s not like I was ignoring him, but I would just do it and the next thing I’d know, [chuckles] he’d be screaming at me and then my mom would just stick me in my room whenever I did anything that she (didn’t like) [chuckles]. I’d turn up the volume on the TV too loud and she’d send me to my room. All the time. And so my parents were these lunatic people [chuckles] and I’m supposed to be able to grow up and have kind of sane life. That’s why I joined the Marines.

JULIE: To get away from that.

JAMES: To get away from them yeah. I never wanted to live past 20 either.

JULIE: How come?

JAMES: Because I didn’t want to live. I’ve never liked being alive.

JULIE: From as early as you can remember?

JAMES: Yeah.

JULIE: I mean sounds like, growing up was pretty tough with. So I’m not sure, so the people you call your mother and father, they weren’t actually your parents.

JAMES: No my godfather was awesome he was William McDougal.

JULIE: But your parents, the ones who raised you were

JAMES: Were, I don’t even know how in the hell I met them. I just know that I was there one day. But I know that my godfather was William McDougal. And he has very good taste. And he was always really really cool and loving and friendly. I love him dearly.

JULIE: It’s too bad he wasn’t the one to raise you.

JAMES: Yeah, he was also an Irish hit man.

JULIE: But so, should I call the people who raised you your mother and father? Is that what you refer to them as.

JAMES: No I just call them Mitch and Yvonne.

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JULIE: Okay, Mitch and Yvonne. Okay they are the people who raised you.

JAMES: Yeah.

JULIE: So Mitch is the one who would beat you with a belt.

JAMES: Yeah

JULIE: And Yvonne would just put you in your room for no reason.

JAMES: Yeah, for like a week or two weeks at a time.

JULIE: You would be locked in your room.

JAMES: Yeah. She was like – “Well you have all of your toys in there.” And I’m like [laughs] – “Yeah but nobody to, nobody to share time with!” Sorry, I have to laugh, because I’m being hysterical.

JULIE: If you didn’t laugh.

JAMES: I said I apologize for laughing, I’m getting hysterical.

JULIE: You’re getting hysterical?

JAMES: Yeah, when I laugh like that, it’s when I’m starting to get [mumbles]

JULIE: Is it hard for you to talk about this?

JAMES: It is a little bit because it makes no sense. [pause]

JULIE: It makes no sense that people would treat a child like that?

JAMES: No, like nothing. You were right before, with the conclusion you came to when you’re like- well, if nothing has ever made sense to somebody well that probably means that, um, he, [mumbles quickly] If people don’t make sense to him, he probably had a confusing life. And like, okay well then when I was 19, I fell in love with this, in Indiana from 16-20 is all consensually. (consensual age?) So I fell in love with this 17 year old young woman when I was 19 and she turned 18 and we were going out while I was still friends with her, but I had gotten her pregnant and later on I didn’t know she was pregnant. But then later on I found out that she had had an abortion. So I have that to deal with [chuckles]. I’m sorry, I just have, I’ve had too many things to deal with to be able to make any sense of anything.

JULIE: And it sounds like you haven’t had people to help you make sense out of things.

JAMES: No I haven’t.

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JULIE: I’m sorry.

JAMES: It’s not your fault, but thank you. [pause] Are you mad?

JULIE: No, why do you ask?

JAMES: You were just tensing up.

JULIE: Oh. If anything, I was, what I was feeling was, maybe there was some frustration that you haven’t had more supportive people in your life.

JAMES: Yeah. [pause] Well, would you like to ask another question?

JULIE: Sure. Um, so I guess. So it was you and Mitch and Yvonne growing up?

JAMES: And Austin and Adam. Cause Adam’s middle name is Carl. I’m just, I’m not sure if he’s with the Special Forces like I was in.

JULIE: I’m just going to write their names down so I don’t forget.

JAMES: Yeah, and when you go through and redo it could you jot out?

JULIE: Oh yeah, of course. As I said, everyone will be disguised.

JAMES: Adam, I’m not exactly sure what he’s doing with the Marines, but me, I was a scout sniper.

JULIE: So Carl, is with the Marines and he’s 22 now.

JAMES: Yeah.

JULIE: And he lives in Oregon

JAMES: It’s outside of Portland

JULIE: Okay and then your other brother?

JAMES: Austin.

JULIE: How old is Austin?

JAMES: Um, 26 or 27.

JULIE: So the three of you grew up together.

JAMES: Yeah, I pretty much was Adam’s godfather and I pretty much raised Adam.

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JULIE: You raised Adam.

JAMES: I used to tease him a little bit, but I wish I hadn’t. About being overweight, but then he. He’s awesome. He either works for the government or he, I’m pretty sure he works for the government too.

JULIE: So, um, you said you raised Carl. You pretty much raised Carl.

JAMES: Pretty much, I mean as a father figure, yeah.

JULIE: Where was, where was Mitch?

JAMES: Mitch was always… Okay, with Austin I was a father figure to him. In the sense that I would always be playing games with him. Like we would build forts, uh, we’d take like, couch cushions off and pile them together and build forts out of them and stuff. And we’d just play and like, um. I was more like his big brother really, but with Adam, my dad was always in and out and he was always like cheating on Yvonne and then like, he’d be doing this and that and like. Adam goes, “James when I grow up I want to be just like you.” And later it kind of hit me that like he was saying- “James, I kind of want you to raise me,” you know?

JULIE: He looked up to you.

JAMES: He looked up to me a lot.

JULIE: Yeah.

JAMES: Austin does too. At least he used to before I got sick, I don’t know how they feel about me now but, um. With Adam, he ended up going into the Marines. And, I was like- don’t join the Marines, please Adam, don’t join the marines. But he did.

JULIE: Why didn’t you want him to join?

JAMES: Because you get treated really poorly

JULIE: How did they treat you?

JAMES: Like property.

JULIE: It felt like just property? Like you didn’t matter?

JAMES: Yeah, and the, from 97 through this year I served 5 three year tours with um, me personally with the swift, silent, and deadly, um.

JULIE: Swift, silent, and deadly?

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JAMES: Yeah, for four of those three-year tours I was a scout sniper. For two years I was a drill instructor and for one year I did black ops. At nighttime I got into a helicopter and we’d go into enemy territories and we’d shoot at people with machine guns.

JULIE: Did you kill people?

JAMES: A lot.

JULIE: I wonder how does that, how have you dealt with that?

JAMES: Ok, how do I view it?

JULIE: Yeah, how has that impacted you?

JAMES: Well, okay here’s the thing. And I don’t care what you believe- that’s your own choice. But here’s what my mom had said. ______I looked into this, so before I went into combat I looked into this. To find out what the root cause of the Arabs, what their motivations were. What they believe is, the teaching of Imam who said one, I am the profit who laughs while he kills, while I kill my enemies. I call him the false Elisha. Two, I will kill the Saturday people first and the Sunday people second. Meaning, he will kill the Hebrews, the Jewish people, they could be Hebrew-Jewish on their mother’s side and Jewish on their father’s side. First, the ones who go to synagogue on Saturday or the gentile Christians who believe in Jesus Christ. Who go to church on Sunday. It was all religiously motivated. And the, they were calling it a jihad [laughs]. So I told all my Marines that they were all angels of death because the Muslims actually believe that Marines are angels of death. That is what they call them. So I told them that, I was like- you’re all angels of death and we’re fighting a jihad. We have to kill them so they don’t kill our families and friends. And so like, you are a very very very pleasant person to be around.

JULIE: I am?

JAMES: You are a very pleasant person to be around.

JULIE: Thank you.

JAMES: So the way I see it, it’s either like, if I didn’t kill the Arab person who wanted to kill a bunch of Americans, to take your freedom away so you’d be in some torture camp where you’d be subjected to some way of life that you were being forced into. I don’t feel bad about that. I don’t feel bad about the cocaine runners that I killed. I don’t feel bad about that.

JULIE: It’s all the bad people that you’ve had to kill.

JAMES: Yeah. And I go, [pause and looks up] I was like.

JULIE: What just happened?

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JAMES: Sometimes I pray. I believe that the Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost will talk to you. That’s my own personal spiritual belief.

JULIE: Was the Holy Ghost just talking to you?

JAMES: Yeah. Or it was my godfather. People say they can hear their (grands?) [mumbles]

JULIE: Your godfather was just talking to you?

JAMES: Yeah he goes- “James you got three purple hearts and 27 Congressional medals of Honor.”

JULIE: Is that what he just said to you?

JAMES: That’s what he just said to me. And so I was like, well, [pause 15 sec]. Ok that was my godfather. I recognize his voice. And I got 15 purple hearts.

JULIE: What was he saying, if you don’t mind my asking?

JAMES: He goes –“You got 27 Congressional medals of Honor and three purple hearts.” And then as soon as I said that he goes, that was from Ireland. And what about here. And he goes, “You have 82 congressional medals of honor and 15 purple hearts.” I know I’m dying of internal bleeding, like of internal hemorrhaging.

JULIE: You are?

JAMES: Yeah, but I’m not going to have any surgeries done or have any blood removed or anything like that. But anyway, to get back to what you asked. I’m sorry.

JULIE: That’s okay.

JAMES: [laughs] Why is that wall suddenly becoming your godfather? (joking) [laughs] Um, I said for every time I shoot somebody that I shouldn’t have been shot, I want to be shot. So that means out of all of the people that I shot, and I had to take the lives of, only 15 of them were the wrong ones. It wasn’t their time yet.

JULIE: So you got, you’ve been shot 15 times?

JAMES: Yes, in the US military, yeah. And three times in Iraq.

JULIE: And you said you’ve got a lot of, that you’ve got PTSD from your combat.

JAMES: Yeah.

JULIE: So do you have flashbacks of combat?

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JAMES: I’m on retinadine and prilosec so I can’t remember my dreams.

JULIE: you don’t remember your dreams. Do you ever have waking flashbacks? Things that remind you of your combat?

JAMES: Yeah, and things like what I just did. That’s kind of like a waking dream. You know sometimes you wake up and you start to hear somebody’s voice that you remember. And _____ (not here?)

JULIE: So that happens to you, waking dreams, a lot?

JAMES: Not a lot, just every once in a while. Especially when I have a question, when I have something on my mind. And I’m going to close my eyes here and keep them open and just listen, and it’s a little faint whisper, whispering to me. [mumbled]

JULIE: I was wondering, so you, I’m wondering if you were haunted by the visions of what you had to see.

JAMES: There’s a couple that really bother me.

JULIE: Can you tell me about them?

JAMES: Yeah, well, there’s only one and then I found out that. There’s this one where this little girl got killed but then they found a grenade in her pocket, so it was like she was going a grenade out and kill a US soldier and that was the only one that bothers me. But what does bother me is – Billy Smith in my arms and uh, and then [mumbles] he got shot. That was like. I was like come on Billy, don’t die, please don’t die, please don’t die, please don’t die. And he passed away.

JULIE: You lost him

JAMES: And I lost him.

JULIE: Was that painful for you?

JAMES: Yeah. [long pause]

JULIE: So the experience of having him in your arms and losing him, watching him slip away right there.

JAMES: Yeah

JULIE: Is that the only time you’ve experienced a loss like that or did that remind of you any earlier losses?

JAMES: I remember visiting Belfast when I was younger. And these kids, these children who were like maybe 10 years old started throwing rocks at the constables and the constables opened

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fire. And that’s why they started shooting all these 10-year-old kids who were throwing rocks at them. Instead of just holding up their plastic shields, they started shooting at them. And I was like, “Who are those people?” And my godfather goes, “They’re English.” And he goes, “Yeah, they are evil, that’s why I kill them.”

JULIE: So you saw 10 year olds being slaughtered.

JAMES: Yeah, you could call it a slaughter.

JULIE: That sounds really confusing.

JAMES: Yeah, most of my life has revolved around, [laughs]. I joined the US army when I was three and I was in the IRA when I was two.

JULIE: So you’ve been fighting since you were three.

JAMES: Two, I joined the IRA when I was two. In ’76.

JULIE: You’ve been a spy?

JAMES: I’ve been counterespionage.

JULIE: So since you were two, you’ve been engaged in that.

JAMES: Yeah. For five or six years. Sorry sometimes that part when I lived in Georgia and Kentucky slips out. [laughs]

JULIE: What do you mean, slips out?

JAMES: I mean like I’ll talk about the slang or something like that, or I don’t speak clearly. But like, well, um, [pause 15 sec]. I played soccer for Indianapolis Eleven for four years and I’ve played baseball for the Chicago Cubs for 1 year.

JULIE: So you’ve had a lot of high profile jobs.

JAMES: Yeah. And I’ve been the president of the international stock exchange, and I changed it from the federal to the American international stock exchange.

JULIE: That’s a lot of responsibility.

JAMES: Yeah but it was pretty easy. Yeah, thank you yeah. It was a lot of responsibility. And it was pretty cool, keeping the currency I mean keeping the economy ______. But like, anyway, I did that. When you said, I brought that up because you said I’ve had a lot of high profile jobs. And I modeled for Doc Marten boots and I had one or two pictures done for Versace. So yeah, I’ve lived a real fortunate life. I just never caught on to certain things.

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JULIE: Like what?

JAMES: like, [pause] I don’t know, it’s pretty much like the criminal court system here in America. Like see I’m under the impression that to be here at this facility, at least on my floor, I was told by one employee that it’s the detainee center. Is that true?

JULIE: I don’t think so.

JAMES: Ok. I was told by another. I was like, is this some kind of incarceration center. And he’s like yeah, it’s a type of one. And I was like is this some kind of correctional center, and he said, yeah it’s a type of one. And I was like- for what? And he goes, well, for drug users who are mentally ill. ______(I was like) Is that a crime? There are actually rehabilitation facilities for places like that. And I was like, [laughs]. So ever since then I’ve been just stupefied by everything. So I’m sorry for going on about this.

JULIE: That’s okay. I mean it sounds like a lot of your childhood was really confusing

JAMES: My childhood was confusing, everything about these mental hospitals is confusing. And, we’ve talked for an hour straight.

JULIE: I was wondering, if you don’t mind me asking another question now. You said that your brothers looked up to you until you got sick.

JAMES: Yeah.

JULIE: And now you’re not so sure, but, when did you get sick as you say?

JAMES: Well, I don’t know. I mean, okay this is. Do you care if I pray real quick?

JULIE: Go ahead.

JAMES: [closes eyes, bows head] [Pause of 2-3 minutes] [opens his eyes]

JULIE: How are you feeling?

JAMES: Alright.

JULIE: Okay.

JAMES: [pause] When I first came here, I was talking to Bridget Ball. Do you know who she is?

JULIE: Not sure.

JAMES: She’s like a nurse or something on 421A. I go yeah, it’s my belief that Jesus Christ is the only reason that I’m still alive. And it’s my belief that my faith in him is what has given me strength to still be alive. And she goes, well as far as that man that you just mentioned, as far as

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I’m concerned that man that you just mentioned hasn’t done jack shit for me. He doesn’t mean a damn thing to me. I was like, well you’ve seen the AA program. I’ve completed the 12 steps or I’m on the 12 steps or something like that.

JULIE: Okay.

JAMES: But Jesus Christ is my higher power. And so the fact that he loved all that might believe enough to die on a cross and to carry a like a cross a wooden cross that probably weighed between 1500 and 2000 pounds on his back up that hill to Golgotha and be crucified up there. To show his love. To show the love of the father. To show his love for all that might believe and to hear somebody in a treatment facility that is supposed to be a rehab center say that Jesus hasn’t done anything for her, [chuckles]. I was like, well this place is obviously like, some kind of fucked up degenerate place. I’m sorry if I’m not answering your question, I just got side-tracked.

JULIE: That’s okay.

JAMES: But anyway, I’m still like, what the hell does this place have to do with the 12 steps or anything?

JULIE: Well, I don’t know. So, to go back to, what happened when you got sick?

JAMES: When I got sick, I always had mood swings, and – oh yeah, my IQ was tested at 414, and I’m supposed to be mentally ill. I can play the Roth 3, 4, 5, the Duvall, the Duvalli, 1, 3, 4, 6, 7, the Tibsa and the manu AME. And that’s when I get creative, is when I’m euphoric. And I’m supposed to be mentally ill or manic-depressive because I think differently.

JULIE: I’m not saying you are. I think that people have reactions to their lives.

JAMES: Yeah.

JULIE: And that if probably the reactions you have are more understandable when we look at your life, and that’s what I’m trying to do is, understand how you got here. Or how you got. But I don’t think you just woke up one day and were manic-depressive, whatever that means.

JAMES: Thank you. [pause 30 sec]

JULIE: Are you getting tired?

JAMES: Not tired, can I get another cup of coffee or do we have time to keep talking?

JULIE: Sure, we can do that.

JAMES: That’d be good.

[Break for coffee]

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JULIE: So before, what I was asking you about, you mentioned, and I’m using your words- you’d said “I’d got sick.” So I was wondering if you could talk about when that happened for you

JAMES: When I had to start going to hospitals

JULIE: Yeah, so when did you have to start going to hospitals?

JAMES: When I was like. I had to start going routinely after 2005, and I, maybe it’s just that I perceive things differently, you know, not like in a realistic way, because I’m on these meds. It’s like putting a big fog over somebody and then, hitting them in the head with a bat every morning. I’m serious, I might as well have just drank a fifth and then talk with you. I may be just as coherent if I was incredibly intoxicated, as I am taking these medications. They’re supposed to be treating some illness and I’m fine treating it on my own, if I was just left alone to go out in the woods.

JULIE: You’re better off just going off alone in the woods?

JAMES: Mm-hmmm, and going fishing.

JULIE: And going fishing. You said that you, so in 2005, that’s when you had to start going in regularly? What was going on then? And I know the medications don’t help, with your ability to talk about this stuff, but.

JAMES: Well, I was watching the Christian Broadcast Network that Christ was here. And I was like, well,

JULIE: They broadcast on the Christian Network that Christ is here?

JAMES: Yeah, and I was like, and I was like just overjoyed. I was like, this is really really cool. And, I had to (be) put on meds and I was told that I have a thought disorder. And I probably do with these meds. Pretty much.

JULIE: Told you have a thought disorder.

JAMES: Yeah because, I believe in things that I can’t see.

JULIE: So in your own experience, so other people are telling you that you have a thought disorder and that’s a problem, have there been any psychological or type issues that you see as a problem for yourself? Anything that you find problematic?

JAMES: Not really.

JULIE: Not really? Okay.

JAMES: Before I was on medication I tried to commit suicide one time.

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JULIE: Only once?

JAMES: And after medication, I tried to commit suicide 14 times.

JULIE: Can you tell me about that first time you tried to commit suicide?

JAMES: Oh, well I wasn’t even trying to commit suicide. A cabbie pulled out in front of me. I was driving drunk. I don’t know if it was a real suicide attempt, because I was thinking about it for a while, or if it was just being reckless.

JULIE: You were drunk driving?

JAMES: I was drunk driving yeah. I was charged with leaving the scene of an accident as a result of a- or leaving property damage. I knocked over a fence. Nobody else was involved. I didn’t have a passenger. No other car was hit. So it was just leaving the scene of an accident resulting in property damage.

JULIE: Okay, that’s what you were charged with. Did you almost die?

JAMES: No, so that was the closest I came to a suicide attempt. But as far as actually like slitting my wrists or whatever or trying to drink myself to death, I’ve probably done that at least 50 times, since I’ve been on meds.

JULIE: Since you’ve been on meds.

JAMES: And I never once heard voices or would stop in the middle of a conversation and pray or would like tilt my head, talking to some spirit.

JULIE: That never happened before the meds?

JAMES: No.

JULIE: Sounds like the meds have made things worse for you.

JAMES: Yeah.

JULIE: And so the first time they decided to put you on meds. I think you’d said it was in 2004, right?

JAMES: No, the first time for any disorder was ADHD. And that was when I was 10, and that was Ritalin then. He decided that I was cyclothymic. But he didn’t put me on meds.

JULIE: So you were 10, you were diagnosed with ADHD? You were given Ritalin?

JAMES: Yeah.

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JULIE: What was school like for you?

JAMES: Probably as boring as listening to me talk.

JULIE: You’re assuming I find this boring.

JAMES: [laughs] Okay, it’s as boring to me as listening to myself talk.

JULIE: So, how boring was that.

JAMES: [laughs] It was like, stupid clock, hurry up! I’m not fucking kidding you!

JULIE: Yeah, and so it sounds like you had trouble paying attention. You were diagnosed with ADD.

JAMES: ADHD

JULIE: ADHD, sorry. And then, then you were, they diagnosed you as cyclothymic but they didn’t put you on anything for that.

JAMES: Not that I remember. And I didn’t even remember that until I was older and diagnosed with bipolar II.

JULIE: And then when did you get the bipolar II diagnosis?

JAMES: When I was 22, so that was in 2002.

JULIE: Okay, so 10 years ago.

JAMES: I have to go by the ages that they have me on record as, so they assume my birthday is August 9 1979, instead of my actual age of 38.

JULIE: Oh. So you’re actually 38 but they have you down as…

JAMES: Yeah, that is what I was trying to explain earlier, is that I’ve been with an intelligence community since August 4th, 1979 as far as I know.

JULIE: Okay.

JAMES: This may or may not make sense.

JULIE: Yeah I’m a little confused by that. So you’re saying that, the dates they have you down for being born are not correct? They have you younger than you really are?

JAMES: Yeah.

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JULIE: Okay.

JAMES: But I know that Zyprexa makes me hallucinate too. Yeah. Maybe this one interview will be enough.

JULIE: Maybe this one interview will be enough?

JAMES: Probably because I can’t (talk) about, I don’t have a lot to say about my relationships.

JULIE: Oh that’s fine. Maybe we should stop for today and we can pick it up again in a week or two.

JAMES: Okay.

Second interview with James

JULIE: So I thought we could start with um, your relationships.

JAMES: Um, well, [laughs] the only relationship that I – that I’ve honestly had was with a 17 going on 18-year-old when I was 19. It’s legal in the State of Indiana, 16 through 20. Um, it was age of consent, at least it was back then, or in the later ‘90s, and uh, I got her pregnant, and she had an abortion, and so I decided that I would never date again.

JULIE: You’d never date again.

JAMES: Uh-huh.

JULIE: It sounds like you were devastated by that.

JAMES: Yeah, it wasn’t really fun.

JULIE: No, I mean it was so bad you decided you’d never want to date again.

JAMES: Uh-huh, but my relationships with my brothers, I’d do anything for ‘em. Um, I decided if either one of them died, I’d commit suicide. And if they got ______, I’d do it for sure.

JULIE: Pardon.

JAMES: Uh, I was saying if either one of my brothers died I’d commit suicide. I own a shotgun, so I know I’d do it for sure.

JULIE: You would do it for – you would use a shotgun so you could do it for sure if either of them died.

JAMES: Yeah, I used – I’ve used a belt like 12 times and just strangled myself.

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JULIE: Yeah.

JAMES: That’s not very painful; you just slowly go to sleep.

JULIE: Okay, yeah.

JAMES: But as far as um, relationships go most of my honest relationships were in the military. Not female, but male where you just bonded together because you’re willing to die for each other, you know.

JULIE: Yeah. So um, what about when you were little?

JAMES: When I was little.

JULIE: Yeah. What was it –

JAMES: I don’t recall much of when I was little.

JULIE: Uh-huh.

JAMES: I know I was born in Ireland, and I’ve lived in Dublin and Claire, Limerick, and uh, I think those are the three places I maybe may have.

JULIE: So when you were born, you – it was –

JAMES: I can’t remember when I was born.

JULIE: Yeah, yeah, but um, what’s your earliest memory of your family? [pause]

JAMES: Um, I remember a big, a big, um, snow and I was in my aunt and uncle’s house, and my dad just like using a shovel in his hands burrowed out this big tunnel. The snow was probably like 20 feet deep.

JULIE: Uh-huh.

JAMES: It was over in Watertown Indiana. And I remember I followed him up. I was crawling behind them, and uh, it was one of the coolest things ever, to be able to crawl up and down that snow. And then you get up on cement, ______. You know, I was like, “Well.” Um, okay, I’ll go back. I’ll be _____. That’s what I meant.

JULIE: Okay.

JAMES: I’m sorry I don’t have more to offer about relationships.

JULIE: That’s okay.

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JAMES: I just say like there’s this Pennywise song. You know who they are?

JULIE: Who?

JAMES: Pennywise.

JULIE: Pennywise, no I don’t.

JAMES: Okay, they’re a hardcore band. Or hardline or whatever you want to call it. And they, uh, have this song about their bass player who had died, and they say if you die, that’s the way it is. And that’s always like the way I felt about my friends, and uh, and people I care about.

JULIE: So if you die, that’s the way it is?

JAMES: If you, if you die, I die. That’s the way it is.

JULIE: Oh, if you die, I die, and that’s the way it is.

JAMES: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: I see. So you feel like without them you would die.

JAMES: Not necessarily without them.

JULIE: Oh, okay.

JAMES: It’s like if you lose your life I’ve lost my life.

JULIE: Okay.

JAMES: Not like out of any need or greed or anything. In the absolute most selfless way, if you die, I die. That’s the way it is.

JULIE: Yeah, and that’s why you said if your brother, one of your brothers died, you would kill yourself. Is that –

JAMES: Yeah.

JULIE: Is that connected?

JAMES: Yeah.

JULIE: When you think about one of your brothers dying, what comes up for you?

JAMES: Just a loss of reason to live.

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JULIE: Mm-hmmm. Do you feel like they understand you?

JAMES: Who?

JULIE: Your brothers.

JAMES: Yeah. If I’m being myself, if I’m not all doped up on fucked up medication that I’m not even supposed to take. Like well, then it’s off to sea again.

JULIE: Then it’s off to sea again?

JAMES: [Laughs] Yes.

JULIE: Okay.

JAMES: Catch you on the – catch you on the other side of the river.

JULIE: What’s that like when you’re off to sea?

JAMES: It’s like, uh, holy shit they actually (think) this is making me better – because I’ve been diagnosed as having 0.101, which means I don’t have anything despite any prior diagnosis. First doctor said that I have cyclothymia, if anything.

JULIE: Yeah.

JAMES: And that’s only when I’m drinking, so that’s not even an accurate diagnosis.

JULIE: So, what’s it like for you though? What do you – how do you feel when you’re out to sea again?

JAMES: It’s like well, hmm, nobody to talk to, I’m not really coherent. I better go and drink. Maybe then I’ll actually be a little bit more sober.

JULIE: Nobody to talk to.

JAMES: Nothing to do, not coherent.

JULIE: Not coherent.

JAMES: I better go and drink so I’d be a little bit more sober than what these medications they put me on.

JULIE: Uh-huh, yeah. And what happens to you when you feel close to someone, connected to them?

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JAMES: Um, well, just a few certain people, few certain individuals, I feel like kind of ______. The people I actually get close to, yeah, they’re a godsend.

JULIE: You feel are…

JAMES: Godsends.

JULIE: Godsends. Uh huh.

JAMES: Yeah, like angels or whatever. That’s predominantly – and I treasure them, and it’s like wow.

JULIE: Who are those people?

JAMES: Um, Adam, my brother, Austin, my brother, Eric Thompson, who was here and got all messed up.

JULIE: Erin, your ex-wife?

JAMES: No, Eric Thompson.

JULIE: Eric Thompson.

JAMES: I’m straight.

JULIE: Oh, I wasn’t sure what - that’s fine.

JAMES: Um…

JULIE: Who’s Eric Thompson?

JAMES: He was, he was a guy that I knew that lived in the same housing complex as me in Glenview, and I’d always go up there and hang around with him. As I got worse, he got worse because they kept on mixing pain medications with psychotropics, which is worse than taking acid or anything. And I haven’t even ever taken acid on purpose, it’s only been slipped to me. They were just seeing if I liked it. It’s like, “Hey, mother fuckers you poisoned me for life.” But as far as people that I’m close to, well, my dad, I get mad at him just because I miss him. Eric, wherever he is at, I don’t know where he’s at. I miss him. Sean Ryan McDonnell is my grandfather who I’m upset with because I miss him.

JULIE: You’re upset with him.

JAMES: Because I miss him.

JULIE: Okay.

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JAMES: Adam and Austin. And my mom, but she’s more like a guiding spirit. And my grandmother, Kate Donovan.

JULIE: Who?

JAMES: Kate Donovan, only she goes by Kate Griffin Baum, but the Griffin really means a Donovan. Um, and maybe a few other people that I can’t quite recall. David Wilson Roberts, Ted Carson and Adam ______, and then I don’t ever count the hundreds of men I served with in the marines.

JULIE: Sorry, my throat is getting really dry. [Coughs] I hate it when this happens.

JAMES: Bless you.

JULIE: Thank you. Uh, you mentioned your mom is more like a guiding spirit. What do you mean by that?

JAMES: I mean she’s a – she kind of comes when I need her the most. But then the - the thing is all I need to do is see her and she will bring me like something to eat or whatever, but.

JULIE: She’ll bring you what? Sorry.

JAMES: She’ll bring me something to eat, some food. Yeah, some food and something to drink. I don’t have a lot to say to her. She’s more like, “Well, just go along with the program. You’ll get out soon enough.”

JULIE: That’s what she says to you?

JAMES: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Okay. And so you also said that you’re mad at your dad and your grandpa because you miss them?

JAMES: I’m not angry or like seeing red. I’m just like, you know, I wish I could see them more often. And sometimes – and it’s very selfish, and it’s like well, I just miss you, and I’m upset that I can – that I’m in here.

JULIE: Yeah.

JAMES: So that’s about – that’s really the depth – the depths of my relationships with my family, and a handful of friends.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. And um, what happens when you’re mad or you’re mad at one of them, what happens?

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JAMES: Uh well, as soon as I see him, I’m not mad anymore. And it’s more of like an anxiety attack than actual anger. Sometimes panic attacks can lead to anger, like real high anxiety, you know. I don’t know if you’ve ever been to an airport or something.

JULIE: To an airport?

JAMES: To an airport, and you’re like waiting for somebody to pick you up, a friend or you know, whoever, and uh, I mean come on, come on, come on, come on. Where the fuck – and then they show up, and they’re like – and you’re like, “You’re alive.” [laughs]

JULIE: You’re really angry, really angry and then they show up, and you’re –

JAMES: You’re just like, “Oh hi, sir. I wasn’t sure if you were going to show up or not.”

JULIE: You weren’t – I wasn’t sure if you’d show up or not.

JAMES: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Is that a common feeling for you is not being sure if people will actually show up?

JAMES: Yeah because there’s been so many of my friends die.

JULIE: I wonder if even before then, before you saw your friends die, that you had experiences of people not showing up when you were much younger.

JAMES: [chuckles] Probably, with William McDougal.

JULIE: Your grandpa?

JAMES: He was my godfather.

JULIE: Oh your godfather, yeah.

JAMES: Yeah, he was my godfather when I came over. It was Sean McDonnell –who uh, or Sean Ryan McDonnell who brought me over here as a merchant marine and rear admiral. And he brought us over on a ship. And I was the only one that would be like this – I was like this little kid up there on the deck of the boat. And wore our Captain Morton suits.

JULIE: Captain Morgan suits?

JAMES: Morton.

JULIE: Morton.

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JAMES: Yeah, not the Civil War hero. The uh, great cavalry officer. But um, the Captain Morton suits, like the saltshaker guy suits, the yellow coats, the trench coats with the hood over them. You know what I’m talking about?

JULIE: Morton salt?

JAMES: Morton salt, yeah, like the –

JULIE: The yellow slickers?

JAMES: Yeah the slickers, yeah that’s what they’re called. Yeah, the slickers. And I’d be up there. [laughs] I was like this tall, and I’d be wearing them, and I’d just sit there and watch the – watch the water go by. And uh, James was never my real name. I changed it when I came over here. It was really John Dylan O’Connor. And so I go – [laughs] one time, I board – I go, “Yeah, there’s this guy up there, way up there named James, and you know what I’m gonna do? I’m gonna rip him off. I’m gonna make him look like the biggest jackass that ever lived.” And so I just – I just decided to pick some guy up there named James that I was going to rip off.

JULIE: How did you rip him off?

JAMES: So I was making fun of people who call really themselves gods. Because like in like Ireland, that never happens. You get stoned to death.

JULIE: If you call yourself a god? You said people call themselves gods?

JAMES: Yeah if you call yourself God, you get – in Ireland, you get fucked up. [Laughs] In America, there’s like all these people calling themselves god, and they all think they’re god, and I was just warning them about what they’re going to find in America.

JULIE: Oh, okay, I’m wondering where your mom and dad were when you were coming over?

JAMES: Um, well, I guess my mom was, where were you ___? She was in Memphis Tennessee, and the first place I lived was Macon, Georgia, but I don’t recall any of that because there weren’t any like real family get-togethers. I just know I’m like real southern at heart, but uh, um, as far as – I am sorry, but I’m steering this in all these wrong directions. I mean would you like for me - would you like for me to just be quiet and ask a new question?

JULIE: Do you want me to?

JAMES: Well I know you’re here to ask about relationships, I’m just kinda –

JULIE: Okay. Well, I guess we can.

JAMES: Okay, well I don’t recall anything. I just know that’s where I ended up was Macon, Georgia.

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JULIE: Yeah.

JAMES: Since Tennessee is a close proximity to Macon, since Memphis is. They must have met each other, that’s how – where the hell. No that doesn’t make sense. I don’t even know how I got to be related unless I was born over here. I just – I don’t even know how I got over here. It doesn’t make sense.

JULIE: Maybe you were born here, I wonder.

JAMES: Maybe I was born here, but for some reason I remember a ship brought- maybe that was going over there and coming back when I was younger. I don’t know. But I know I’ve been over in Ireland. I might be a first generation. That’d make more sense. I don’t know.

JULIE: But, so tell me more about your early memories of your parents.

JAMES: My earliest memories of my parents were living in – do you mind if I pause for a minute to think about this so I can give you a?

JULIE: Sure, do you want me to pause it?

JAMES: Yeah pause it.

[Break]

JAMES: Okay, how it worked out, yeah, I was born in Ireland. My mother, my mother came over on a ship called the U.S.S. Enterprise. There might have been a third S to that. But and then I came over on the U.S.S. International. And so she docked in Memphis. I docked in Macon- Macon pardon me. And um, and so that’s where we, and so then they - they got back together, and that’s how I ended up. And then she – and we lived in Lexington for a while.

JULIE: Lexington, uh-huh.

JAMES: Yeah, and then moved up to Indiana. But yeah, I can’t remember most of my childhood. I don’t know if it’s from being too much_____ or what. And I’m not making up stories, and if I am, it’s not intentional.

JULIE: I wonder if you have trouble remembering your childhood because there were some terrible things that happened to you.

JAMES: Well, that’s very well possible. I remember being in Belfast. Did I tell you this story last time?

JULIE: About the children being shot?

JAMES: Yeah. So I joined the IRA, and I applied for congressional medals of honor for being a hit man from the IRA.

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JULIE: But I wonder about much earlier on if terrible things happened to you.

JAMES: No, not really. I was always kind of – okay, I’ll tell you something, and this is the primary reason why they call me psychotic or that I have a thought problem is that I believe that sometimes, angels come down to earth and they walk around. And I’m – and this is going to sound like a far stretch, but I have to be pretty creative to come up with this one. I’m the guardian angel of a cemetery in Ireland called Gallows Rest, and I’m supposed to be over there and not over here being questioned about my beliefs, not from you.

JULIE: Okay.

JAMES: But from like the psychia- from like the doctors. But what you’re doing is logical and fine. But I’m supposed to be watching over certain families, and since I can’t do that, I’m kind of like just really, really irritated, and I’m really irritated with that idea that somebody believes that the holy spirit, the holy ghost, God can reach down and touch you, could heal you as opposed to taking all of these, um man-made drugs. And like, so I believe that angels come down, angels come down. And most of the time they’re archangels. Sometimes you’ll meet angels, and they’re normally like the really, really soft sensitive ones. And then you’ll meet archangels who are like the really, really, really strong ones. They can put up with a lot. And like, you remind of an archangel a lot.

JULIE: I remind you of an archangel?

JAMES: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: How come?

JAMES: You just do because you’re strong and just – a lot of times, you can tell by looking in somebody’s eyes. And just, your sensitivity and you’re caring, and you’re willing to listen and, the way that you um, you have the strength inside of you to want to, not to want to, but to help a lot of people. And your desire to fix lost love is, is something that’s very beautiful.

JULIE: To fix what, I’m sorry?

JAMES: Lost love.

JULIE: Lost love.

JAMES: Yeah, it’s very beautiful.

JULIE: Thank you.

JAMES: You’re welcome. So that’s why I’m psychotic is because I believe angels are coming down.

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JULIE: Mm-hmmm. I wonder if in some ways – I’m trying to think how to say this. I noticed that when I brought up the idea of really terrible things having happened to you when you were younger –

JAMES: That I change the subject.

JULIE: Yeah.

JAMES: Yeah um, well, that didn’t happen until we’d been in America for a while (although my dad?)- And recently I realized my dad has autism. I was like, “Whoops.” That’s actually what he has. He’s super, super smart, but people think that he’s stupid, like nobody understands what he’s talking about but me. And uh, so all about that – all that stuff about him hitting me, that wasn’t his fault. He’s just sort of a handicap, but he’s super smart, too.

JULIE: But he hit you.

JAMES: He’d hit me, but – I mean there’s a ______. And I have leukemia from it. It fractured some of my bones.

JULIE: Fractured some of your bones, and you have leukemia from it. That sounds like it really made you sick if it gave you leukemia.

JAMES: Yeah it did. But it’s not like I’m going to do anything about it. It’s too late now. But it’s not like it was his fault either. He would always just feel really, really, really self-conscious because he was worried that, that we wouldn’t love him or that he would lose (who he loved?) because he was in Vietnam. And so he - I even think he was a drill instructor for a little while.

JULIE: A what instructor?

JAMES: A drill instructor, I was a drill instructor for a little while too, so you should take my picture. [smiles] So he goes – so I think sometimes, I think sometimes the flashbacks would just hit him, you know, more than anything. I think the flashbacks would hit him.

JULIE: And then what would happen? He would…

JAMES: He, he would just snap. He wouldn’t punch us. He wouldn’t pull guns on us.

JULIE: He would punch you and pull guns on you?

JAMES: No, I said he wouldn’t punch us and he wouldn’t pull guns on us. He was just mad because every once in a while, he would hit us with a belt.

JULIE: But it would happen randomly. He would just snap?

JAMES: Yeah, that was with – that was when – that was (when I had the most confusing.) That’s the way it is. That’s what it is. And we all [sighs] came out pretty strong.

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JULIE: That was his way of disciplining?

JAMES: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay, I’m wondering, so when was the youngest you can remember when he did that to you?

JAMES: I don’t know. I was, I was like – see my birth certificate is all screwed up. [laughs]

JULIE: Yeah, but –

JAMES: Okay, the youngest I can remember would be nine.

JULIE: Okay.

JAMES: Because I’ve had leukemia since I was nine, and I’m like actually 47.

JULIE: Yeah.

JAMES: I mean that, but so let’s see, that would have been, fuck, 38 years ago. And he hit me maybe when I was 10 a few times, and 11 a few times. But it was mostly when I was nine. But if you subtract a whole bunch of time, a whole bunch of years, YK, I thought I was like three or something, and so uh– or six. I don’t know how old I thought I was. But there was uh, a lot of, a lot of discontent in all of this. Not all of us. There’s a lot of discontent in him and just the way the family was, and YK he felt responsible for the family, like just the stress from working and, and everything just got to him, you know. He just, he handled it the Irish way.

JULIE: The Irish way. Which was?

JAMES: Even though he wasn’t a drunken Irishman, he would, it was like a strong hand.

JULIE: A strong hand.

JAMES: Yeah.

JULIE: Laid on you.

JAMES: Yeah.

JULIE: Yeah. I wonder –

JAMES: I didn’t have any incredibly terrible traumatic things happen.

JULIE: I wonder what it was like for you when he would hit you.

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JAMES: I was mostly like, uh, well, most of the time to be honest with you what was more terrible was when my mom would hit me, not hit me, was when my mom would send me to my room to be all by myself, and I look out the window and everybody was out there playing. I’d be stuck in my room because I said the wrong thing or did something that she didn’t want me to do. But like it wasn’t intentional. And like one time – and see, what I realized- I finally realized what triggered it. It’s that, my mom goes, one time when we were little in Lexington at her mom’s house. She goes, “Yeah, James, me and your dad are both autistic.” I go, “Yeah, both of you are very good at painting and coloring pictures.” I thought that – I thought that she said artistic, and I was like, “Yeah, you both are good at coloring pictures,” and ever since then, she thought I was making fun of her, and so did my dad. And so- so now the pieces fit.

JULIE: The pieces fit?

JAMES: The pieces fit.

JULIE: How do they fit?

JAMES: In between my dad’s posttraumatic stress from Vietnam, my mom’s stress from whatever she went through, um, and the fact that they were both left – they weren’t autistic their whole lives. You know, like they wouldn’t have taken my dad in the marines, but they did. He was autistic. He was somehow so traumatized that they would leave him, and he’d become autistic or almost catatonic states. Have you ever heard of that?

JULIE: Being so traumatized that you just sort of revert into yourself?

JAMES: Like catatonic. Yeah.

JULIE: Yeah.

JAMES: Yeah, well, that can be mistaken for autism. That could be a form of autism. Does that make sense?

JULIE: Yeah.

JAMES: Yeah, so that’s pretty much where I’m at. So I just said one thing to her one time, and she thought I was being mean because I was always, I was always pretty bright, and I noticed she got a couple answers right and everything, and ______that stuff. But, one of the funny things is they even thought I was mentally handicapped. And then they go – they go to my dad after I was done taking the test, and they go, “We don’t know how smart he- how he got that smart, but um, that is an incredibly gifted child.”

JULIE: How did your parents’ autism affect you?

JAMES: They never made sense. I was like, uh, “Hmm, what is up these peoples’ asses?”

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JULIE: Can you remember some experiences where you had that thought, like what is up these peoples’ asses?

JAMES: Yeah, mostly all of the time. Oh yeah what I was going to get back to was the worst part would be like where my - where my mom would uh be wanting to send me to my room, and I’d be like telling her, “You spank me instead.” And he’d just hit me a few times, and be like, “Okay, there’s your punishment.” So I’d actually go to my dad and ask him to hit me instead of being stuck in my room for a week. And then I was like, “Can I go out and play?” And he’s like, “Yeah, I don’t care.” [laughs]

JULIE: You’d rather be beaten than sent to your room?

JAMES: Well I wouldn’t call it beaten. I was never - I was never – [makes noise and motions hard blows]. It was more like with a belt than actually fists, not actually beaten down like in a bar fight or something.

JULIE: Okay, it’s still painful.

JAMES: It hurts, but you get over hurt. You get over the pain.

JULIE: But being stuck in your room for a week.

JAMES: That really traumatizes you. [laughs]

JULIE: Tell me more about that.

JAMES: That’s like sensory deprivation disorder.

JULIE: So you’d be in your room by yourself for –

JAMES: I had all kinds of toys, but I didn’t have anybody to play – I didn’t have anybody to play games with.

JULIE: So she’d send you to your room and you couldn’t leave it for a week?

JAMES: Uh-huh.

JULIE: What about for meals?

JAMES: Yeah, for meals I could leave.

JULIE: Okay.

JAMES: Yeah, I mean, we weren’t like white trash, and we weren’t dysfunctional necessarily. We were just like, I don’t know how to put it. [sighs] They were finding it very hard to live, and

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they didn’t take it out on us, but we were kind of the result. The way we – the way we turned out was more of a result of, of, of the way that they were trying to, uh, get by.

JULIE: Okay, can you say more about that?

JAMES: They were never sure, even if, even if they’ve been working in a place for like five or ten years, they weren’t sure if they would get through the next paycheck. Not like they were drinking it away or anything, they never had a drinking problem. It normally skips a generation. But like they weren’t sure if – they’re like, “Well, I know I’ll be paid in two weeks but after that I don’t know.” They were always afraid of being fired, like they weren’t doing a good enough job, and so that’s pretty much the extent of the way I turned out. Like yeah, I have Veteran’s benefits, but they keep on – on a personal level my relationship with people, not with you, you’re wonderful to talk with.

JULIE: Thank you.

JAMES: You’re welcome. But like the staff. I was talking to Sandy, and I was like, “Yeah Sandy, uh what you’re looking for is a DD 70, it’s for Special Forces, not a DD 214.” And she goes, “Well, you don’t have a DD 214.” I was like, “You must be –” I didn’t say it, but just – if I said more things that I actually thought, I would probably not even have any reason to take medication. I just keep it all bottled up, but I was almost like, “You must be some kind of fucking idiot. How would I even know what a DD 214 was?” That’s your discharge papers for the military, but I have a DD 70, which is for Special Forces. And she goes, “Well, you don’t even have a DD 214, and I was like, “Damn you. [laughs] There’s no fucking way. You cannot be that stupid.” Why would the Legion be sending me – the American Legion considers me a veteran.

JULIE: So, can I ask you a question?

JAMES: You can ask me anything.

JULIE: Okay, so when you said if I let – if I said more of what I was thinking I wouldn’t –

JAMES: Be on medications.

JULIE: Yeah. I’m wondering when you were younger, what you should have, what you would have said that you didn’t say?

JAMES: Well, I just one day snapped and started telling my mom that I hated her. [laughs] Both of us were arguing. I was like, “Mom, I hate you. Mom, I hate you. Hey mom, I hate you over there sitting on the couch. Yeah I fucking hate you.” I was (running the)______vacuum sweeper.

JULIE: You hated your mom?

JAMES: Yeah.

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JULIE: That’s a strong feeling. I wonder, there’s probably a good reason why you hated her.

JAMES: Yeah she uh, was always like, keeping everybody hanging by a noose.

JULIE: Keeping everyone hanging by a noose?

JAMES: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Can you say more about that?

JAMES: She would make us feel guilty when we didn’t do anything. [laughs]

JULIE: What did she make you feel guilty for?

JAMES: I don’t know why. I, I never understood her exactly. I mean she must have done something or she must have had something really traumatic happen to her. I’ve never asked her about it, and if I did, she’d probably, she’d probably break down in tears for a long time, if I really delved into it. But I mean, maybe it was from visiting Belfast when she was younger. Maybe it was from having a friend die. I don’t know. But what I do know is there was something wrong with the way I was raised that has really impacted and influenced, um, the way that I interact with people in general. I don’t like to – I really don’t like to engage in conversations that often, and it isn’t antisocial or a sociopath or a psychopath, I really just prefer to be quiet and just go by a riverbank and fish by myself or with one or two friends and smoke cigarettes and catch fish.

JULIE: So you said something, a couple very important things there. One is that something about the way you were raised has affected the way you interact with people.

JAMES: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Yeah, I wonder what it is about the way you were raised that has affected you so profoundly.

JAMES: I don’t know. Sometime before my mom dies, I have to ask her. I already know – I figured out what happened with my dad. He, he would try so hard to make my mom happy, but I’m pretty sure that she’s the one who’s manic-depressive. Oh, but back to that story about me having an IQ test done. They thought I was mentally handicapped.

JULIE: Okay, can we stay with –

JAMES: Yeah, we can stay with that, but I wasn’t.

JULIE: Okay, I believe you.

JAMES: That, yeah. And uh…

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JULIE: You said you thought your mom –

JAMES: It was just turmoil all over is all, and that’s what I was saying.

JULIE: Turmoil.

JAMES: Turmoil.

JULIE: Yeah turmoil, lots of turmoil.

JAMES: Yeah. Yeah.

JULIE: Could you tell me more about the turmoil?

JAMES: [pause] I already have.

JULIE: Okay.

JAMES: How much time do we have?

JULIE: Um, it’s 2:45 right now, so 45 more minutes.

JAMES: Do you care if I use the restroom before we keep going?

JULIE: No that’s fine.

[Break]

JULIE: I guess, so I’m wondering if, well we’ve talked, well, what was I going to ask? Um, I guess, when you were younger –

JAMES: Uh-huh.

JULIE: Who could you go to for comfort and support when you were a little kid?

JAMES: My dad.

JULIE: Your dad.

JAMES: Or my mom.

JULIE: Or your mom.

JAMES: Mostly my dad.

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JULIE: And what would happen when you went to him?

JAMES: He’d always pick me up and um, he was always just somebody to lean on and hug. And he was real cool.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. And who do you feel like understood you when you were little?

JAMES: Well, I didn’t care about being understood, I had a job to do.

JULIE: But did anyone understand you, whether or not you cared about it?

JAMES: [laughs] Well, I’m not them.

JULIE: So you don’t know if they understood you?

JAMES: No, it’s not really relevant to me anyway.

JULIE: Did you feel understood? Did you feel –

JAMES: I didn’t have any – I never had a desire to feel understood. I knew, I knew the ways things were, and I didn’t care [laughs] if they necessary – I’m not trying to be rude, but I mean maybe that’s what makes me anti-social now because I’m sure they’re trying to come up with some new diagnosis.

JULIE: Hmm.

JAMES: Um, it’s not that, it’s not that I do deviant things. I don’t care if I hurt somebody. I just don’t care if you think the way that I think is all I’m trying to say.

JULIE: Yeah, um, whether or not you care about whether people think the way you think, when you were little, whether or not you cared about it, did you feel like people understood you?

JAMES: Not in America. In Ireland, I was fine.

JULIE: Okay, so in America, you didn’t make sense to other people?

JAMES: Americans didn’t make sense to me.

JULIE: Americans didn’t make sense to you. Yeah. And we talked about how your family was confusing.

JAMES: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: What happens when other people who you care about are angry? What happens?

JAMES: Hmmm?

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JULIE: What happens when people you’re close to and care about are angry?

JAMES: Well, and I just say, “Well, I’m sorry. Please explain to me why you’re angry, and I will try to fix it.”

JULIE: How do you feel?

JAMES: Like it’s their problem and not mine.

JULIE: Okay. What happens to you when you get angry?

JAMES: I burn it. [laughs]

JULIE: You burn it.

JAMES: [laughs] I [laughs] I torch a bonfire.

JULIE: You torch a bonfire.

JAMES: Uh-huh. I get hot. Like blood red-hot.

JULIE: How long does that last?

JAMES: For a very long time.

JULIE: Yeah.

JAMES: My vision was down to 2-8 because I was seeing red all the time. I always see with like this pinkish tint. My dad said one time I saw with this pinkish tint when this guy said something that made me really mad. So he picked him up with one arm, I was about to yell at him, and he heard a little whisper in his voice say, “Mitch, put him down,” and so he did. But um, I see with that pinkish hue all of the time.

JULIE: You’re constantly angry.

JAMES: Yeah.

JULIE: I wonder what’s made you so angry.

JAMES: People telling me I don’t know how to think right, my IQ is 1224, that’s proven by the National Congressional Library of Intelligence.

JULIE: So people not believing you, telling you that you’re not thinking right.

JAMES: Yeah, I don’t care if they don’t believe me. I don’t believe in them.

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JULIE: Okay. It’s really hard for you when - it really makes you angry when people don’t –

JAMES: When people put me on medication to correct the way I think, and I still think the same way. They should maybe reevaluate themselves.

JULIE: Yeah. It’s not bothering you.

JAMES: Except for the side effects.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. Well the way you think doesn’t bother you, the medications bother you.

JAMES: Uh-huh.

JULIE: Yeah. Um, what happens when you feel distant from people?

JAMES: [whispering to himself]

JULIE: What’s going on?

JAMES: Um, I uh, I believe in things I can’t see.

JULIE: Okay. So what happens to you when you feel distant from people?

JAMES: That’s the way I feel all the time. I was a sniper for seven years with forced recognizance on the record, holding sniper. It was my true profession.

JULIE: So you’re used to being distant from people?

JAMES: Yeah, and I drove a semi-tractor, like those trucks, only they were tractors for 6.75000 miles, that’s six million, seven – 675,000 miles that I drove a semi-tractor by myself.

JULIE: So, have you ever known a time when you didn’t feel distant from people?

JAMES: When I was together with uh, going into combat. I mean I used, I used to have a group of friends, we were called the local crew, and we’d sit around and uh, at a coffee shop, and we’d sit around and drink. We’d sit around and drink.

JULIE: Did you feel close to them?

JAMES: Yeah, I was very close to them. I always will be. I mean whether they remember me or not, I’ll always remember them. And uh, I was O’Connor, Adam was McMahon, David Roberts was Robbie.

JULIE: What do you mean?

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JAMES: We had nicknames. We were the local crew.

JULIE: Oh, okay.

JAMES: And we were alcoholics, and we were called the local crew, and uh, then um, we all- we all were involved with the military or police, or law enforcement, and uh, and Ted Carson, who is the only man I’ve ever met who could out drink me is was Carson and that was it.

JULIE: When you were little, what were your friends like when you were growing up?

JAMES: Well I grew up with Adam Ross. We practiced martial arts when we were six or seven. We grew up, and we wore our karate and ninja uniforms, our kung fu uniforms, and we’d practice martial arts. And then I prac – and then I took guitar lessons, and I was playing Jim – I was playing Jimmy Hendrix a lot for about a year or two, and then I quit playing because I figured I couldn’t get any better than playing Jimmy Hendrix. [laughs]

JULIE: And what about in school? What were your friends like?

JAMES: Well, they were the same friends. [laughs]

JULIE: What did you like to do with them?

JAMES: Go camping and go fishing, and it was mostly me and David – me and Adam would go camping. I mean if I’m speaking really loudly, I apologize.

JULIE: Really loudly?

JAMES: Am I speaking really loudly?

JULIE: No, you’re speaking very quietly.

JAMES: Okay because sometimes people say I’m yelling or I sound like I’m yelling; it’s just from being a drill instructor.

JULIE: It’s from being a drill instructor, okay. I can – I can barely hear you at times.

JAMES: Okay, well with Ted, I started fishing with him. I started fishing with him when I was about 18. With David, and we were friends from about 14 on. With Adam, I started being friends with him when he was six and I was five. We were always friends.

JULIE: And so, okay, um, in going back to currently when you said you’re close to your mom and your dad and your brothers, and – what happens when you feel distant from them?

JAMES: I get sad.

JULIE: You get sad. Okay, anything else?

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JAMES: I pray.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm, what do you pray for?

JAMES: Their safety.

JULIE: How come?

JAMES: [closes his eyes] Um –

JULIE: You just prayed right now?

JAMES: Yeah, that’s for my alcoholic friends.

JULIE: But when you pray, you feel distant from your family, you feel sad, and you pray for their safety?

JAMES: I’m sorry. It’s- it’s from combat, I’m sorry. I go into these trances where I just think like random things.

JULIE: Oh okay.

JAMES: It’s not any mental illness necessarily per say.

JULIE: Okay.

JAMES: But um, I’m sorry. What’d you say?

JULIE: When you feel distant from your family –

JAMES: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: You said you feel sad and then you pray for their safety, I was wondering how come you pray for their safety?

JAMES: Why?

JULIE: Yeah.

JAMES: So they can live. [laughs]

JULIE: Okay.

JAMES: I told you before I was a guardian angel. I’m a guardian angel over death.

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JULIE: Yeah, you’re a guardian angel over…

JAMES: Death.

JULIE: Okay, so you’re worried they would die.

JAMES: Yeah. I mean it’s all in God’s hands anyway, but like, YK sometimes I was just like, “Well, you know, father, I’d kind of like to see ‘em again.”

JULIE: Father as in God?

JAMES: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Ok. Please let them live so I can see them again?

JAMES: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: I see, that makes sense to me. Ok. Um -

JAMES: That’s a beautiful ring.

JULIE: Thank you.

JAMES: You’re welcome.

JULIE: Um, so you’ve talked about a number of painful things from your childhood and other traumas that you’ve suffered. You know, I won’t say anything else about those. But um, you haven’t mentioned anything sexual.

JAMES: Yeah, I don’t know what sexually has happened.

JULIE: Nobody ever touched you or…

JAMES: Not that I remember, I could – I mean um… nobody ever touched me, but, cshhhhhhhhh, I was, I was so exposed to that so many times in my line of work for the government that it kind of always stuck with me. So it was kind of always like well, I don’t want to ever come on to anybody unless they flat out come on to me. Like yeah, sure, I’d love to go out with you. But, as far as me being touched, I can’t remember anything.

JULIE: I wonder if it might have happened and you’ve forgotten it.

JAMES: Or maybe I was so aware of it happening all around me, none of my family have been in my line of work. I’m not making it up. What Operation – not watch Operation Soviet. Watch Suspect Zero and if you truly care about what I’m trying to tell you, watch the movie Suspect Zero, and then you’ll see what I did when I was younger, and not what I did myself to children, but I was, I was like Ben Kingsley, the main actor.

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JULIE: Who is –

JAMES: I was like Ben Kingsley.

JULIE: Okay, yeah, you said that um –

JAMES: [pause] So I don’t know whether it happened to me or whether it happened to 1,050 – 1,500 – probably 1,057 children that I found out about. Okay.

JULIE: You don’t know if it happened to you or if it happened to the children that you found out about.

JAMES: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Yeah. What did you find out about those children?

JAMES: Well, you have to turn this off.

JULIE: Okay, it would be helpful if I could leave it on but –

[Break]

JAMES: Okay, I’ve uh – okay, I found 2,058 children who were dead, who were missing, who’d been abducted from their parents, and 1,047 who were alive. Okay, and this was from ’81 to ’86.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

JAMES: And they, uh, had been tortured and raped and beaten all by the most likeable people you could imagine. What I learned in working for the Army Special Intelligence Units Criminal Investigation Operation Stargate was that it was normally the most outgoing, the most friendly, not the ones who keep to themselves like everybody wants to peg them as. If somebody ever insinuates that you have done something that means that they have done it themselves. I learned that for a fact. [sighs] Um, I don’t mean from my professional point of view, I mean from – what? [whispers and listens to someone I can’t see]– okay –

JULIE: James, are you okay?

JAMES: Yeah, well welcome to Operation Gateway Lieutenant Colonel.

JULIE: We’re safe here.

JAMES: Okay. I was a Lieutenant General in general with Operation Stargate, and they made me a Major General, and I said, “Bullshit. I’m a Lieutenant General at the least.”

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JULIE: Yeah.

JAMES: So I don’t know which part to – I can’t stand to see children hurt. It fucking makes me sick as hell, and that’s what I did for a long time, and the older I got and the more I thought about it, the more I thought about it, the more I thought about it. I just, I like, I just became this – a raging alcoholic so I wouldn’t have to think about it. Nobody, but nobody, but nobody could understand what it was like. You know to, uh, be exposed to those things and they’re like, “Yeah, almost everybody that’s involved in Operation Stargate ends up either criminally insane – either being labeled criminally insane or ends up in a mental hospital for years at a time.”

JULIE: So you said – so the things that happened to those children, the things that you have witnessed –

JAMES: Were the trigger point for my, uh, let’s see what it’s called. Uh, okay, so now I am paranoid schizophrenic because there’s no such thing as armed Special Intelligence. Now let’s see, um, let’s think of another one, for my 0.101, no diagnosable mental illness. Despite other mental illnesses, that’s what I’ll go with. Okay, so now I am perfectly sane, but I am on these medications, and I’m- I’ve drank coffee to wash away those medications. What I saw with Operation Stargate, it’s now called Operation Gateway, is and was things – I’m not blaming them. I volunteered for it. I also worked for naval Special Intelligence. But um, that had to do with astronautical – it had to do with spaceships and shit like that. But um, I had – but I was exposed to the worst in people, like the very most vile, disguising, most terrible things in people you can possibly imagine, which is why I became a sniper, and I had no remorse.

JULIE: What did you see? What did they do to the children?

JAMES: You want to know? Okay, they’d be like, “Come over here. We’ll go um, we’ll go to the, we’ll go and uh - do you want me to buy you some popcorn?” “Sure, I love that, mister.” “Okay, come over here.” Then grab them up real quick. “Hey, you said that you’d buy me some popcorn. Mom! Dad!” But they’re too far away already. “Shut up, you little bastard.” Um, this isn’t a confession. These are all things that I’ve heard.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

JAMES: And the next thing you know, he has them in a van. They almost always drove vans. Either that or they drive like really nice sedans because they almost always either vans or sedans. Men in trucks were normally the ones that drive with – like the ones that drive with a shotgun on a rack. That’s the type of guy I am, even if I do have a nice car, a nice motorcycle. But like, they were the ones on the lookout for like sexual predators, like child sexual predators. And just think of predator in the most literal sense. That’s what they would do to them.

JULIE: So they would?

JAMES: They would molest them and beat them and then kill them until they find their next victim. And these were like, these were like three and four-year-old children.

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JULIE: They’d be molested and beaten and killed or left for dead?

JAMES: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: It must have been so scary for those children.

JAMES: No shit.

JULIE: It must have been so terrible. You have such vivid memories of these things.

JAMES: They don’t go away.

JULIE: You said you weren’t sure if they happened to the children or do you?

JAMES: No, I wasn’t. I said like well if somebody did touch me, I don’t care it didn’t really affect me. I was a little bit too grown up for that. [chuckles] Hey- you cop a feel?

JULIE: Pardon?

JAMES: That was my attitude. Hey, you copped a feel.

JULIE: Hey, you copped a feel?

JAMES: Yeah.

JULIE: Someone touched you?

JAMES: If – if they did, that would have been my attitude. I can’t remember a lot. Most of it has been blacked out.

JULIE: Yeah. What do you remember?

JAMES: What else I remember? Um, are you interested in this line of work?

JULIE: What line of work?

JAMES: Operation Gateway, where you find serial killers. I’ll tell you all you need to know.

JULIE: Yeah, I’m interested in bearing witness to peoples’ stories.

JAMES: Oh, it as a law – in a law firm, or uh –

JULIE: No, I mean like, hearing when people have gone through horrible things, hearing what they’ve gone through, giving them a place.

JAMES: Oh, it’s helping – like helping the family or something like that?

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JULIE: Helping people who’ve been through terrible things.

JAMES: Well the ones that I was aware of didn’t make it through. Well, okay, one-third made it through.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

JAMES: And they were traumatized for life, and they would normally never ever, ever, ever get better. I mean they can told that they’re loved and their cared about and, “We’re so happy we found you.” Yeah, but why did that guy do that? Because he was sick. Yeah, but why did that guy do that? I don’t know. I just – I don’t know why he did that. Why did he do that? I don’t know.

JULIE: That’s always a tough question.

JAMES: So that’s what you’d be confronted with is what. It was just my job to catch them.

JULIE: Yeah, I wanna work with the people who have survived that.

JAMES: Mm-hmm. Well, you’d be great at it.

JULIE: Thank you.

JAMES: But you probably won’t be able to sleep at night for years.

JULIE: It’s hard to hear this stuff and not be affected.

JAMES: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: But I also consider it an honor to be trusted with these things.

JAMES: Well, you’re worthy.

JULIE: Thank you. You said you’ve blacked out most of it. What –

JAMES: Just like combat.

JULIE: Pardon?

JAMES: Just like combat.

JULIE: Uh-huh, but this was before the combat.

JAMES: Mm-hmmm.

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JULIE: What do you remember?

JAMES: Except for with IRA. But yeah.

JULIE: Yeah, what do you remember?

JAMES: About? See my, my child-, my ah, I always, I always thought when people thought about themselves that was – I mean not that you shouldn’t live the life that God gave you, but from my point of view, putting yourself in front of others just makes me sick. It’s just like, you don’t do anything but suck your own cock.

JULIE: If you put yourself in front of others?

JAMES: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: I’m wondering if we, what you were just saying though about why did that man do that, I don’t know, why did that – why did he do it, I don’t know.

JAMES: Yeah.

JULIE: I’m wondering if you were that child?

JAMES: Nope, I was a part of that child.

JULIE: You were part of that child?

JAMES: If you die, then that’s the way it is.

JULIE: If what?

JAMES: If you die, I die, that’s the way it is.

JULIE: What do you remember?

JAMES: See, I was never sexually molested if that’s what you’re trying to get at.

JULIE: Okay.

JAMES: It wasn’t me. It was me being an eye witness, a testimony. My reports would show up in court, never what I did. Well, I did this, this, this, this, this, this. (so Lieutenant?) Some captains did, some major ______Lieutenant Colonels ___. That’s when I got out, but then once I got back in, they made me a Major General. Okay, so now I’m a major general. And that’s the only work I’m going back into.

JULIE: You want to go back into Stargate?

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JAMES: Yeah, it’s called Gateway now, but yeah. I have to – let me see. [pause] Sorry.

JULIE: It’s okay. So the memories though, what they told you, they never leave you, what you’ve heard?

JAMES: Yeah, they never leave.

JULIE: What’s one of the more vivid ones for you?

JAMES: Wesley Allen Dodd.

JULIE: Pardon?

JAMES: Wesley Allen Dodd.

JULIE: Wesley Allen Dodd?

JAMES: Yes.

JULIE: What happened to Wesley?

JAMES: Not what happened to Wesley, he was a serial killer that I’ve been waiting to catch.

JULIE: Oh.

JAMES: I don’t know where the fuck he’s at. [whispers to someone]

JULIE: James, who are you talking to?

JAMES: Well, we call it talking through the airwaves. Psychologists call it hearing voices. [laughs]

JULIE: Okay, well I’m interested in your experience.

JAMES: Okay.

JULIE: So who were you talking through the airwaves to?

JAMES: My boss or whoever else that was out there looking for Westley Allen Dodd. What he did was he, uh, captured – not captured, he kidnapped a four-year-old little boy. And this was somewhere in Ohio or Indiana, Kansas. It was a small Midwestern town, and he was, he uh, [pause] um, he was there watching his nine-year-old brother play football. His parents thought he’d be safe. It was just an old town where everybody knew each other. And this guy named Wesley Allen Dodd kidnapped him, and according to the PBS show, he took the little boy back to his house, took a coat hanger, undid it and make a noose out of it and hung the little boy up by his clothes _____. That’s the type of thing, that’s was what I was exposed to.

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JULIE: And when they tortured or sexually abused the children, what would they do?

JAMES: And then the little boy died as soon as they hung him.

JULIE: That little boy died as soon as they hung him.

JAMES: Yeah, according to PBS, and they’re normally a pretty reliable source of information.

JULIE: But you mentioned that there were also child molesters. They would torture and molest children.

JAMES: Yeah. When I found out about the Westley Allen Dodd case after I was out, and I haven’t been the same since. So then when I was like, I don’t know. And according to my birth certificate, I was seven. I was more like, in my 20s, but still, I couldn’t stand people like that. Or (any other human).

JULIE: Or any other human?

JAMES: Um, [pause] [sighs] going into a line of work where, where you would, be exposed to – now if you want to deal with just lo- love relationships.

JULIE: Deal with what?

JAMES: If you just want to deal with love relationships, and then they’d be a lot safer, because you will lose your mind, guaranteed.

JULIE: You will lose your mind if…

JAMES: What you have to go through, eight months of testing before we go into Operation Stargate, and now that I’ve opened up Gateway, we will have to go around- not we, as me and you unless me and you were made a team. I’d have to go around and not drive around, but sit at a desk. I’ll show you what I did. Okay? I don’t care if this is on. Here, this is a – a piece of paper. [writes furiously]

JULIE: Do you want me to read that or…

JAMES: Yeah go ahead. South Port in Centerville. Blue van parked in Wal-Mart parking lot. The three children, there was a third, originally there was two, are alive, but the man is very high on fumes or something. Jordan keeps talking about how much he loves to huff fumes, so he’s been fucking with my head. But I know he was very drunk or high on at least alcohol. But officers moved quick, and I wrote down what I could make of his license plate. It was 48936715.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

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JAMES: And you have to do these at least once a week for however many years you’re involved. So that’s what I did for years. ______. I always write it down in jots because I can’t write it out in full because I’m in such a hurry.

JULIE: So you’d to write down, you’d write down what you remember of – you’d write down scenarios or incidents that were happening?

JAMES: Incidents that were happening at the very time.

JULIE: Okay. Mm-hmmm. Well, it’s 3:30.

JAMES: Okay. Well, thank you for your time.

JULIE: Thank you for your time.

Third interview with James

JULIE: I’ll tell you if you’re talking too loud.

JAMES: [laughs] Ok.

JULIE: Don’t worry about it. So, I was wondering if we could start with maybe just a- running over a sort of timeline of your life, like the major events. Where were you born?

JAMES: I was born in apparently Limerick, Ireland and then I served in the IRA for probably around 65, I was born in 61, I probably served around anywhere from 63 to 65 until 70, then I moved to, Mayfair.

JULIE: Where is that?

JAMES: Parker Georgia.

JULIE: Ok.

JAMES: And I lived there for a couple of years and then

JULIE: How old were you when you moved to Mayfair?

JAMES: I would’ve been like 12, 10 or 12, 11 or 12.

JULIE: Ok.

JAMES: And then immediately after I got there, I went and enlisted in the marines cause it was right by- right by a navy station.

JULIE: So you enlisted in the marines when you were 12?

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JAMES: 13.

JULIE: 13.

JAMES: (after? I’d told you) I’d served in the IRA for between 7 and 10 years. And so, they’re like- well aren’t you kind of young? And I was like, well I served in the IRA for this long. They’re like- well, okay son. And so they sent me on my way.

JULIE: They sent you on your way?

JAMES: Yeah so whenever I was in, I was in um, Vietnam and Cambodia, I was in one of those tiger cages for a while. And, that was to set- that was to set an officer free. That was during the ______.

JULIE: Ok, um. I’m wondering can we back and- so when you were. One thing I was trying to figure out was-

JAMES: Yeah

JULIE: your mom and your dad?

JAMES: My father is William McDougal. And, I don’t even know- I can’t recall who my mother is.

JULIE: Okay.

JAMES: Do you care if I pray about it for a second?

JULIE: Do I care if you-?

JAMES: Do you care if I pray about it for a second? Maybe I’ll get an answer.

JULIE: Go ahead and pray about it.

JAMES: [45 second pause] Erin O’Connor

JULIE: Erin O’Connor?

JAMES: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: That was your mom?

JAMES: Yeah.

JULIE: Ok. And so, how did you end up as a Baum?

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JAMES: Because I was, [pause], because I moved to, we lived in Georgia for a while and then I moved to- to Piedmont Indiana ______.

JULIE: Could you please speak louder? I’m having trouble hearing you.

JAMES: It’s actually the land that we moved to, it was in a German settlement. It was called Piedmont. And it was way out in the country. And it was the dividing line. (The land?) my parents owned was the dividing line between, um, uh Southern Woodbridge and Stokes schools.

JULIE: Okay.

JAMES: And it was a German settlement, so we just changed it to Baum. And um,

JULIE: You changed it to Baum from?

JAMES: From- my name was Kelly. So I’ve recently changed it to Kelly. But as far as the name Baum, um, my grandfather was always interested in the Jewish people. And the grandfather who raised me. His name was Sean Ryan McDonnell. And he was on the USSS, um, Express or itinerate- he was a merchant marine who sailed the ship- he would sail the ships back and forth across. Um, from Ireland from America. And so he was always interested in the Jewish people. I told him, I told him about the Baums because they’re called ___ and it maybe a Jewish name. And he always really respected the Jewish people and so he went and changed it. Because Irish people have a bad reputation of being these like – these total dickheads. Uh, you know drunk and wanting to fight all the time.

JULIE: Drunk and wanting to fight all the time?

JAMES: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay, so you changed the name.

JAMES: So he changed the name.

JULIE: Okay, so you said you started out in Georgia?

JAMES: Started out in Limerick and then here in America started out in Georgia.

JULIE: What do you remember about Georgia?

JAMES: The people were polite and friendly. And,

JULIE: What do you remember about your family there?

JAMES: I don’t remember anything prior to, let’s see, 1982, 1981, 1982. And um, that’s when my work began, I was telling you with operation Stargate. When I was telling you before about

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what I used to do to track down criminals. I was with the criminal investigations unit, and so about all I can remember is these like these terribly traumatic things.

JULIE: Yeah. You remember terribly traumatic things.

JAMES: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: And I wonder if some of those happened to you.

JAMES: I don’t know. I don’t think it’s like some kind of psycho-social phenomenon. I believe that- I mean I know that my MOS was 08248.

JULIE: Your what?

JAMES: My MOS- my military occupational specialty, or job designation is 08248. And there is no way I would know that number if I didn’t actually have that number. It’s not like I’m just pulling numbers out of the air. (So I know a lot.) Now you mean like in, you mean like spiritually or like on some psychological level? Yeah they did happen to me. But as far as like, physically being kidnapped and tortured and beaten to death, no that didn’t happen to me.

JULIE: So it happened to you on a spiritual level?

JAMES: Or psychological level.

JULIE: Psychological level. Tell me about that.

JAMES: Well it’s like you put yourself in the place of the victims. And you know you do that day in and day out and life becomes pretty bizarre.

JULIE: Tell me more about the bizarreness.

JAMES: Well it’s like- what the hell’s up? It’s like, what’s that guy going to do- kill me? What the hell is he looking at me for?

JULIE: What is he looking at me for?

JAMES: Yeah, and just things like that.

JULIE: Can you remember a specific instance where you thought someone was-

JAMES: Yeah I can. There was one time when I was six or seven, at least here in America, I’ll just use here in America times.

JULIE: Ok.

JAMES: Instead of being 51- instead of being 51 I’ll be, let’s see it’s, I’ll be 32.

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JULIE: Ok.

JAMES: So let’s just say I’m 32.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

JAMES: Ok, when I was six or seven, I was in the backyard and this guy pulled up in a truck and he looked like he could have been a friend of my dads or maybe not. He would say- “you want to go for a ride?” And then I was like, “well, I don’t know. Do you know my dad?” “Oh yeah, I’m good friends with your dad.” _____(four of my) friends were playing with me in my back yard. And this was in a church parking lot where this happened. Like, there was a grass back yard ___ parking lot. And he pulled into a church parking lot, and uh, he goes, well, um, um, [pause] [turns and talks silently]

JULIE: Who were you talking to just then?

JAMES: Uh, guided by voices, um.

JULIE: Guided by voices?

JAMES: Yeah, they’re a band.

JULIE: Okay. Were you just hearing a voice?

JAMES: Yeah, (I’m) guided by voices, yeah. Um, and, um, so he stopped me from going with him and the guy pulled- the guy drove away.

JULIE: Your friend stopped you from going with him?

JAMES: Yeah otherwise I would’ve- I would’ve been one of those ___ who was abducted. So yeah, (in a lot of ways) I did become one of those victims. If that’s what you’re getting at, I mean if you’re getting- my dad did warn us through prayer and through actual uh study- not study ______overall body structure that my dad hit me so hard that he fractured my bones. And that gave me leukemia and that spread up into my brain. Which is why a lot of times, like I might not seem so coherent. And I’m also on like, uh, generic Seconal and generic Halcyon. And I think even generic Phenobarbital. And um,

JULIE: So your dad hit you so hard, he fractured your bones. How old were you when he did that to you?

JAMES: Um, three in American years.

JULIE: Three.

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JAMES: See I look- I look so much younger because I had a total meltdown in ‘78 when I met him. And it was actually a nice warm loving guy before he got involved in witchcraft and became a warlock.

JULIE: Your dad was a nice warm loving guy before he got involved in witchcraft and became a warlock?

JAMES: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: So, you were, three when you met him? How old were you?

JAMES: I met him in ’78, so I would’ve been 17.

JULIE: Ok, so tell me about meeting him.

JAMES: I can’t say, I don’t remember anything prior. I remember like bits and pieces of screams and yells and it seemed like whole areas where there had been vegetation, and there had been air raids that went through there.

JULIE: There had been what?

JAMES: Air raids.

JULIE: Air raids.

JAMES: Where they had dropped bombs and clear out a general area _____. I remember the jungles.

JULIE: You said you remember screams and yells.

JAMES: Yeah.

JULIE: Who was screaming and yelling?

JAMES: It happens all the time in combat.

JULIE: I wonder if you remember screams and yells from your family too.

JAMES: I remember my brothers coming to me crying and me holding them and hugging them.

JULIE: What were they crying for?

JAMES: My dad hit them too.

JULIE: Uh huh. He was abusive.

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JAMES: Incredibly.

JULIE: Yeah.

JAMES: [pause] So how about those Cubs?

JULIE: Want to change the subject?

JAMES: [laughs]

JULIE: It’s hard to talk about this.

JAMES: Well it’s just um, I don’t feel like I’m helping out with your project that much.

JULIE: Well, actually by telling me about your early childhood experiences, that would be really helpful. Anything you can remember- any bits and pieces.

JAMES: Well, a lot of combat and I remember- the one time I remember it was like, it was almost like being in Eden.

JULIE: Eden?

JAMES: It was almost like being in Eden- E-D-E-N. When I was off the coast.

JULIE: Off the coast of where?

JAMES: Ireland. It was the most beautiful thing I’d ever seen.

JULIE: Could you tell me more about your memories from America?

JAMES: Um

JULIE: You said you have bits and pieces.

JAMES: A lot of, [pause] very, a lot very very um, nothing but confusion.

JULIE: Nothing but confusion.

JAMES: Nothing but confusion.

JULIE: Yeah. What was so confusing?

JAMES: Um, well being hit. And being put in my room. And, my parents didn’t know how to raise kids. So I raised my brothers.

JULIE: So what do you mean by, “They didn’t know how to raise kids”?

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JAMES: They had no idea how to raise kids. Both of them were autistic.

JULIE: So how did they act towards you and your brothers?

JAMES: Well they weren’t as hard on them as they were on me.

JULIE: They were harder on you?

JAMES: Yes, a lot harder.

JULIE: A lot harder. How were they harder on you?

JAMES: hmmm?

JULIE: How were they harder on you?

JAMES: They hit me more, they sent me to my room more. For doing nothing. I’d be going like this [taps fingers on table].

JULIE: Just drumming your fingers on the table.

JAMES: Yeah. And, um, [pause] and he’d go “quit it.” I wouldn’t even be thinking about it. It’s like- it’s like one of those things just like, um, if you have a piece of gum in your mouth, you chew it. You know, it was just like one of those things. Next thing I know he’d be taking me and spanking me. Taking me into the bedroom and spanking me. And, so I, I don’t know. Damn it I… You don’t have any change in your purse with you or anything?

JULIE: No. Sorry.

JAMES: I mean if I can get a dollar or two back to you later. I need some coffee to stay awake. I’m fading in and out.

JULIE: You’re fading in and out? Sorry. But so your dad would take you in the bedroom and spank you?

JAMES: mm-hmmm.

JULIE: How did you feel when he was doing that?

JAMES: I was like- what the hell are you doing? He was- he was ordered by the police to stay a thousand feet from me. After the first time, the whole town could hear (me) screaming at (him), the police department (could) hear me screaming.

JULIE: You were screaming.

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JAMES: Mmm.

JULIE: It must’ve hurt.

JAMES: It hurt- he fractured my bones. Yeah it hurt.

JULIE: Yeah. I’m wondering if, it said in your chart that you’d been sexually abused.

JAMES: Well, probably so.

JULIE: Probably so.

JAMES: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: How old were you when that happened?

JAMES: Like three (in) America(n years).

JULIE: Three in American years. Who was it?

JAMES: My dad.

JULIE: What did he do to you?

JAMES: What do you think? _____ anal penetration.

JULIE: And you were just three?

JAMES: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: How many times did it happen?

JAMES: I don’t know. Cause you don’t like- you don’t normally keep track of these things.

JULIE: Yeah, it happened a lot then, over and over?

JAMES: I guess.

JULIE: How did you feel when it happened?

JAMES: I just laughed at him, and told him he must be the biggest queer I ever met.

JULIE: Did anybody know?

JAMES: No. ______I gotta’ get some water or something.

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JULIE: Do you want to take a break and go to the drinking fountain?

JAMES: Sure.

JULIE: Okay.

[Break]

JULIE: So was it only your father?

JAMES: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Ok. That must’ve been really confusing.

JAMES: Yeah.

JULIE: And did your mom know?

JAMES: I don’t know, I think she knew but I think she was too afraid to say anything.

JULIE: She was afraid?

JAMES: Yeah. I told her later on. But first what (I said) I want to get back to my parents but um, why don’t um, I uh, go to… Why don’t you go to, uh, the police. I go, I told my mom, why don’t you go to the police, and she-

JULIE: I’m sorry, what did you say?

JAMES: I said, “Mom, why don’t you go to the police?” And she said, well because, my dad- your dad will kill all of us. She was that afraid of him. That’s why she wouldn’t turn him- she wouldn’t do anything. She wasn’t afraid for her own life, she was afraid for my brothers’ lives.

JULIE: How old were you when you told her?

JAMES: Probably about six. I was ____ I want to go back to my old parents.

JULIE: I want to go back to my old parents?

JAMES: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: And she was afraid that he would kill you, kill you and your brothers?

JAMES: Yeah.

JULIE: Did he threaten to kill –

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JAMES: He probably did to her.

JULIE: Do you remember him threatening your mom?

JAMES: I- I remember him beating my mom, but one time my stepmother said to me, now I don’t know if your dad made love to your mom or if he raped her.

JULIE: This is your stepmom- so your dad got remarried?

JAMES: Yeah.

JULIE: When did they get divorced, your mom and your dad?

JAMES: After I told my dad to leave or I was like- my parents were always divided on religion and uh,

JULIE: How old were you when you told your dad to leave?

JAMES: 19 in American years.

JULIE: 19

JAMES: And then I was 21 (when he listened)

JULIE: He left.

JAMES: Yeah.

JULIE: And, then he got remarried?

JAMES: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: And your stepmom said, I don’t know if your dad had sex with your mom or raped her?

JAMES: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Why would she say that to you?

JAMES: Probably, maybe to say – you know, your dad is pretty aggressive in the bedroom.

JULIE: How old were you when they- he got remarried?

JAMES: I think 24, I don’t recall.

JULIE: Ok. That seems like an unusual thing for a stepmom to share with her stepson.

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JAMES: Yeah I guess so, but I’m not lying or making it up. I’m not schizo-anything.

JULIE: No, I believe you. I’m wondering- it sounds like there were strange boundaries, is what I’m saying. That she would share information that was kind of inappropriate. She didn’t have good boundaries it sounds like.

JAMES: Well she was probably confiding in me.

JULIE: She confided in you?

JAMES: Yeah, that’s what it was.

JULIE: So you told your dad to leave when you were 19 and he left when you were 21.

JAMES: Something (I can probably say) yeah.

JULIE: Ok. And you said you were 21 when you had your first breakdown, right?

JAMES: Um, I was more like, 23.

JULIE: Ok.

JAMES: And, or 22 or 23. And then I was like. [pause] Then I was like um, I’m sorry- I lost track.

JULIE: Oh ok.

JAMES: What was your question?

JULIE: I wondered if, um, I’d thought you’d said before that your first breakdown was around age 21, or maybe I’m confusing with the year 2001, or, I’m not sure. And I thought that’s how you’d called it, was a breakdown. If that’s not the right term then, please correct me.

JAMES: I can’t, I don’t know. I was in Urbana, I didn’t pay any attention to what they were doing.

JULIE: You were in Urbana when?

JAMES: In 2000-2004. So I told him to leave in 99 and at some point in time when I was in college down there.

JULIE: When you were in college down there.

JAMES: Yeah.

JULIE: Then what happened?

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JAMES: He left her.

JULIE: What? Oh, he left your mom.

JAMES: Yeah. I don’t know. I don’t know. My father that raised me and my mother that raised me. Alright- huge difference from my real father and my real mother.

JULIE: How did you end up with the father and mother that raised you. I’m still not clear on that – from your real fa-

JAMES: Oh well, because my dad moved over to Ireland- no Ireland, to Georgia from Nashville, Tennessee. And, my mom was living in…. No my dad was living in Knoxville, not Nashville. And my mom was living in Macon. And that’s how I met up with her.

JULIE: How did you meet up with her?

JAMES: Because I was, I was walking around crying because I couldn’t find my father.

JULIE: Uh-huh. Your real father?

JAMES: Yeah.

JULIE: And then?

JAMES: And then when I went off to fight in Vietnam.

JULIE: Oh wait, can you stay with that? I still want to hear. So you couldn’t find your father.

JAMES: No so, she, so my mom goes, “who’s that handsome little boy over there”? And I said- I go, “Will you be my mommy?” And she goes, “I can’t be your mom (your mommy), but you can stay with me for a while.”

JULIE: How old were you?

JAMES: I was, um, I would’ve been 17. No I would’ve been, 10-12.

JULIE: In American years?

JAMES: No, in all reality. (In) 12. But I still lost my father and I was still walking around.

JULIE: When you lost your – sorry, what?

JAMES: When I – when I couldn’t find where my father went. He dropped me off there. And I was already missing him cause the boat ride over here took it like, I can’t remember how long.

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JULIE: I’m having a little trouble following, cause I know

JAMES: It’s a confusing – it’s confusing to me and it’s confusing to everybody, but there are the facts.

JULIE: Ok. As best as you can make sense out of them.

JAMES: mmm

JULIE: So you couldn’t find your real father and that’s when you met your mother who raised you?

JAMES: Yeah, then something happened like my, I can’t- I can’t- I can’t recall at all.

JULIE: Ok. And then it was the father who raised you who abused you

JAMES: Yeah

JULIE: Not your real father.

JAMES: No- not my real father.

JULIE: And did the father who raised you abuse your brothers?

JAMES: Yeah. I just- I don’t know if it was sexual or anything like that.

JULIE: Oh ok. Um, and so when you told your mom, she was afraid to go to the police.

JAMES: Yeah,

JULIE: Ok. And, um, well, now it’s starting to make sense about why you said your parents didn’t know how to raise kids and terrible things happened to you when you were young.

JAMES: Mmm. My dad was more like my best friend. And then something happened.

JULIE: What happened?

JAMES: I don’t know what happened to him.

JULIE: This is your dad or the dad that raised you?

JAMES: My father, my dad who raised (not) my father.

JULIE: Ok, your dad who raised you, so he was like your best friend and then,

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JAMES: Yeah, and then, and then something happened. And he- he started, just messing with my head and, doing all kinds of crazy things.

JULIE: How did he mess with your head?

JAMES: By doing, he would- it was just like a great big psych-out with him the whole time. It’s really hard to talk about it.

JULIE: A big psych-out with him the whole time?

JAMES: Yes.

JULIE: Are you referring to the abuse? Or are there other things he did that were to mess with you

JAMES: Well the mental abuse, yeah.

JULIE: How did he mentally abuse you?

JAMES: Just he, he just made me flip out.

JULIE: Were there certain things he would say that would-

JAMES: No he would just- it’s happened more recently than ever. I can’t tell, I’m, There is such thing as an adverse reaction to medications and I’m not saying that everything I have said hasn’t been true, because you’ve got records of it. [mumbles to someone invisible]

JULIE: Who were you just talking to?

JAMES: Special forces.

JULIE: What were they saying? James?

JAMES: Ok, they have a record of me serving from 71 to 74 and from 77 to 79.

JULIE: Ok. What does it mean that they have a record?

JAMES: Proof. They have it written down. It’s in military government files. Proof.

JULIE: I’m wondering, we’re talking about, that sounds like that’s somewhere around the same time when you would’ve been getting abused.

JAMES: [mumbles to someone invisible] I’m sorry, I- [mumbles]

JULIE: What’s wrong?

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JAMES: Um, I’m not trying to sound like I’m complaining but, I really need some caffeine to focus. I’m all over the place. I feel like.

JULIE: I don’t know what to do.

JAMES: What’s in that pot over there? Just hot water?

JULIE: Just hot water. I don’t have a cup to put it in, otherwise I could give you green tea. But, it’s really hard to talk about this.

JAMES: mmmm

JULIE: Yep. Um, I guess I’m wondering, um, did your mom tell you about being adopted?

JAMES: Well, it came to me from memories. It came to me from memories from the past, you know, like. You know like sometimes you have a dream and you just remember something. You remember certain things. That’s what it was.

JULIE: And that’s what it was?

JAMES: That’s what it was.

JULIE: That’s the way it was? Sorry-

JAMES: Yeah

JULIE: - I’m having trouble hearing you.

JAMES: It’s all right.

JULIE: And that’s how you knew you were adopted? Or?

JAMES: Mm-hmm. And then when my- when my father found out that I went to fight in Vietnam, he thought I was telling him goodbye. I (really) didn’t want to have anything to do with him and I hurt his feelings really bad. And, until I met William McDougal, his name is William McKay now maybe. But um, I think I hurt his feelings. I don’t know.

JULIE: Um, any other examples of things that were confusing to you when you were growing up?

JAMES: Um, just, of things that were confusing to me- no, not really.

JULIE: Not really. Ok. Any other specific memories from when you were little that were confusing or scary?

JAMES: No.

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JULIE: Ok. Um, I know you’ve tried to kill yourself- a number of times. I’m wondering what would make you want to kill yourself so many times.

JAMES: (because) I don’t like (life)

JULIE: You don’t-

JAMES: I don’t like my life.

JULIE: What don’t you like about it?

JAMES: If you haven’t been for 14 months as a patient, you probably don’t understand.

JULIE: It’s really hard being locked up in here.

JAMES: Yeah, I’ve heard it’s a criminal hospital. I’ve heard this, I’ve heard that. Is it?

JULIE: This is not a criminal place. There are other places that are forensic, but Woodside is not a forensic hospital.

JAMES: Mm-hmm.

JULIE: Specifically.

JAMES: That’s cool.

JULIE: But even before you got in here you tried to kill yourself.

JAMES: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: What was so bad about your life before then?

JAMES: It’s called survivors guilt.

JULIE: Can you say more about that?

JAMES: I can’t get into it. I’ll try. I think I went through this, I think I discussed this with you before. I _____ special operation stargate more often. [pause] Just going into combat a lot of times. Numerous times. The average casualty rate was 25%. It was really really really messed up. [mumbles to someone invisible; pauses to listen]

JULIE: Who are you talking to? James, who were you hearing right then?

JAMES: The special forces (talk that way)

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JULIE: What were they saying?

JAMES: I was trying to figure out the time that I served. It was 23 years with the seals, 7 years as a reconnaissance sniper and 5 years as a reconnaissance black ops, um

JULIE: But you were saying you feel guilt for surviving?

JAMES: Yeah. Like, why me?

JULIE: Why did you survive? Why you? The question is, “why you?” How do you feel when you think about, “why me?”

JAMES: I don’t know, it’s like questioning Job. You know what I’m saying. You know Yahweh you made a mistake.

JULIE: Pardon?

JAMES: You know, it’s like questioning Job.

JULIE: Job?

JAMES: The (god) Job. I believe in the Hebrew gods.

JULIE: Ok.

JAMES: And (it) was like saying, Yahweh you made a mistake. You know, it’s like questioning god. My gods.

JULIE: What mistake?

JAMES: In keeping me alive and all that______. ____telling them they made a mistake.

JULIE: Sorry, can you say that again?

JAMES: It’s like telling them, that they- it’s like telling them that they made a mistake.

JULIE: The gods that they made a mistake?

JAMES: Yeah.

JULIE: What was the mistake they made?

JAMES: I said, it’s as if-

JULIE: Oh okay.

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JAMES: they made a mistake, you know, so. _____

JULIE: I’m sorry, could you say that again? I can’t hear you.

JAMES: It’s like telling them, that they, that they made a mistake.

JULIE: Ok. And so you try to kill yourself because you feel like they- you feel this guilt?

JAMES: Yeah. [mumbling to someone invisible]

JULIE: You were just talking to someone again? You look angry. What’s going on for you?

JAMES: I’m seriously having a mental breakdown being here.

JULIE: You are?

JAMES: Yeah.

JULIE: What’s going on?

JAMES: You can only be here with nobody to talk to, nothing to say to anybody, 14 months. (and) you walk up and down hallways in the building. Nothing. Nothing. No one.

JULIE: You feel like you have no one to talk to.

JAMES: ______

JULIE: Pardon?

JAMES: Nothing.

JULIE: Oh, ok. Um, so is there anything else you can tell me about. Well I guess, when was the first time you tried to kill yourself?

JAMES: A long time ago.

JULIE: A long time ago?

JAMES: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: What happened?

JAMES: Um, [pause]. How many more questions do you have?

JULIE: Um, I was just going to ask, try to understand a little bit more about how you tried to one, um, three more questions. Do you want me to list them for you?

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JAMES: No, I need to excuse myself.

JULIE: Ok.

JAMES: Thank you. You have a nice life.

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Appendix G

Transcripts of Interviews with Andrew

[“Mm-hmmm,” indicates yes or agreement. “Mm-mm,” indicates no or disagreement.]

First Interview with Andrew

JULIE: So I thought we could start with, how did you end up in Woodside?

ANDREW: Well I was going through a little something called life experiences. Like I was smoking marijuana while I was taking my medicine, and it was like, um, dealing with discomfort and you know I wasn’t being loved enough, and I was ending up in relationships with people and they made me kinda’ to lose it a little bit in my mind. And just with you know expressing myself to people, how I really feel about them. And, this one time this guy, you know I was with him and he you know, and I didn’t know it was going to be a one night stand and I was looking for more than that you know. And then this other time I was with this one dude, I liked him but this one dude was spreading rumors about him, saying that he had HIV. And I knew it wasn’t true, but someone told me it might be true or whatever. Cause I had sex with him. But I knew it was a lie because, I knew that the guy he was talking about, I knew that he wouldn’t have never messed around with the dude that had the full blown AIDS. And just to know that, the way he looked, that he wasn’t attractive to him.

JULIE: So the guy you were hooking up with, he would not have hooked up with the guy who had HIV.

ANDREW: Right.

JULIE: Okay.

ANDREW: He had full blown AIDs.

JULIE: Oh, he had full blown AIDS. He wouldn’t have hooked up with the guy who had AIDS.

ANDREW: Yeah, I just knew because of how he carried hisself and you know I just knew that he wasn’t attracted to him. You know what I’m saying? I just knew that he wouldn’t stoop that low and mess around with somebody like that when he got other people he know that he can you know have sex with. You know what I’m saying?

JULIE: Yeah, why would he have sex with the guy with AIDS when he knew he could have sex with other men?

ANDREW: Right. [laughs]

JULIE: Okay. So I’m hearing you, yeah.

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ANDREW: Yeah, so and then, one of the reasons I came here is, that’s part of the reason I came here because, I can say I was dealing with low self-esteem really about myself, that’s why I was putting weed in the way of my, um, in the way of my life. You know, experiences. You know dealing with family members and. When I got in the hospital, I told my family that I was gay. I told them that I was gay, I was like- you know I’m just going to keep it real with y’all, you know I’m not going to lie anymore. I’m not going to try to hide it anymore. I was telling them, though, when I come to Woodside, I was like, I’m not coming back because I don’t want to be around y’all, because y’all don’t accept it. Y’all don’t accept me. Don’t act like y’all do, because I know y’all don’t. And so, come to find out, I call, actually I call my sister. I want to say she called me, but I called her. And I was talking to her and she said that my cousin missed me, so I was like, and this is one of the cousins that, um, that I feel really don’t like me. You know really don’t look at me as being a person that she can like. You know family sometimes can be the worst ones, you know. And, you know really dealing with this and really dealing with the whole situation about me being gay. You know they don’t understand why I’m like this. You know what I’m saying? They don’t understand that this is the reason why I’m like this. Sometimes I don’t understand it. But I know god loves me no matter what because he knew I was going to be like this when I was a little boy. He knew that my life was going to end up in this situation where my family wasn’t going to understand me. My dad wasn’t going to understand me. I believe that my momma passed away for a reason so that I can take on and live my life and find new techniques you know and be kind of weird person I want to say.

JULIE: Be different?

ANDREW: Be different, that’s what I want to say. Just be different from. Different individuals, even in this hospital. And it’s like I can see different. You know what I’m saying? Because I’m a Christian and I’m spiritual. And when I pray to god it’s like it’s an awesome feeling to pray to god and know that he is listening. But you really, but for me I have to believe in god in order for him to do something for me. It’s not something that you just ask for, but when you ask for something from god you know you open your heart unto him and he will pour out blessings unto you but you have to ask with faith and you have to trust in him that he will do it for you. So in the time that I got sick. I got sick, um, because I was smoking weed and taking my medicine, back in XX I was staying in a group home. It’s called Pathways. I was staying there for about 10 months and when I was staying there it was like, um I was smoking weed real bad. I was like doing it every, every single day I was doing it. I was doing it because I wanted to hide myself, how I really felt about things, you know, and who I was.

JULIE: You wanted to hide how you really felt about things?

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: Like what?

ANDREW: Like me being gay. Um, about my family not knowing and me not understanding if they did know. Or if they did not know.

JULIE: You did not know.

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ANDREW: I did not know if they knew or not, so it was all up to me to just come out and say it and tell them that, okay, I’m gay. Do y’all? IM what, do y’all like it? But to me. What I felt like was like, they was going to be disappointed in me you know because, cause I been hiding it for so long and like my sister she’s having kids. She’s pregnant now, she’s about to have a little boy. And she just had a little girl. She’s 10 months now. And so it’s like she’s having these kids and I’m wondering like, you know what, I don’t want to be around the kids. I don’t want to be around my family because I understand that, I’m a different person. They don’t understand me because, even when I talk to my sister sometimes, I’ll be like, um, I was like – “How you doin’? Do you miss me?” She was like – “yeah I miss your crazy self.” And I’ll be like, maybe, she do think I’m crazy. Because sometimes when I get on the phone and I talk to her, she’ll be like, um. No, I’ll be like, girl I’m gonna get my nails did. I was like I’m gonna go get my hair did too. And she’ll just listen to me, and she’ll be like, “See I don’t want to hear that, I don’t want to hear that shit.” You know, she’ll be like I don’t want to hear that. If you gonna get to talking like that, I’m gonna hang up. And my other sister I was like. It was like my other sister, she don’t like me. I can tell she don’t like me because I guess, because I’m gay and she don’t want her brother to be gay. Cause, I’m not the only brother they have, but I’m the only brother that they have from the same mother. Because my mother had 3 kids and my dad got kids on his side. You know what I’m saying?

JULIE: He had kids with another woman.

ANDREW: With another woman.

JULIE: Okay, and so, there’s three from your mom. You and your two sisters?

ANDREW: Yeah, so actually I grew up around nothing but women. Hanging out with women.

JULIE: What are your sister’s names?

ANDREW: Celeste and Tina.

JULIE: Okay, are they older than you?

ANDREW: Yeah, they Celeste is 22 and Tina is 21, and I’m 19. I’ll be 20 this year. So we kinda’ like, behind each other in ages. Yeah.

JULIE: So you were saying you were smoking a lot of marijuana to deal with being gay

ANDREW: yep and depression is in my family

JULIE: Depression is in your family?

ANDREW: Depression IS in my family.

JULIE: Oh, okay.

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ANDREW: What I mean by that? [laughs]

JULIE: I don’t know. You said it so I was repeating it back.

ANDREW: Depression, I don’t want say depression in my family, but I mean me dealing with depression. Feeling depressed and not sure what to do. And not sure of understanding different things. It was like. It was a lot going on.

JULIE: Why do you think you were depressed?

ANDREW: Because, um, not really knowing what to do. So it made me depressed and all I really wanted to do was just sleep.

JULIE: Escape.

ANDREW: Just escape from what I was feeling and, why family don’t come see me, when I was staying in the group home. Why do they have to act funny towards me?

JULIE: Yeah.

ANDREW: You know and every time I get around them, I feel this funny feeling, like they just don’t like me because I’m different from them. And they look at me like, well he’s, he IS different, but they’ll try to use it as like, I don’t know. Like well, he’s different, um. Or they’ll try to make it seem like well, maybe I should act like him. But it won’t be that type of way where, okay, he’s. To this day my cousin didn’t believe that I was gay. I told him that I was bisexual, and then I told him I was gay. I really didn’t, I knew I was gay, but then it was like he would try to make it seem like I did like women.

JULIE: He tried to convince you?

ANDREW: To like women. Like he’d tell me, you’re not gay man, just c’mon man. You like women. It’s just, man you just, he’d be like, man, ain’t nothing wrong with you man and. And then my sister be like well Andrew, ain’t nothing wrong with you. You just, you ain’t crazy, you ain’t like them other people. And you know I understand what she’s saying, but I know I’m not like other people. And I know that even, even being gay is a big experience for me. You know it actually helps me to be who I am, because that’s who I am- I like men. You know what I’m saying? But when I look at women, it’s like I look at women like as a mother. I look at them like, the relationship I had with my mother was like a friendship. You know my mother passed away when I was 12.

JULIE: How did she die?

ANDREW: She died from second-hand smoke cancer.

JULIE: I’m so sorry.

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ANDREW: Yeah. It’s sad, because I miss her. And she was like an inspirational love and peace for me. You know what I’m saying? Just watching her in the hospital, seeing her go through, seeing the tubes down her throat, and you know all that stuff hurting me. You know what I’m saying? Because I didn’t want her to go through that stuff and still to this day I don’t know why she went through it. You know, but. Before she passed away she sat on the couch at our house and she was like Andrew, um, god told me that you was going to go through a lot in the world. You know what I’m saying. And I believe that one of the big things that I thought about was, her passing away, that’s something I went through that was kind of awful. You know losing her, and, it was hard.

JULIE: I bet.

ANDREW: You know she died when she was 35 years old.

JULIE: That’s so young.

ANDREW: I know.

JULIE: you were only 12.

ANDREW: Twelve years old.

JULIE: So it was, who took care of you then?

ANDREW: My dad.

JULIE: Okay, so you went to go live with your dad?

ANDREW: Actually we was all together.

JULIE: Oh, ok.

ANDREW: I was raised by my two parents since I was little.

JULIE: You said you were raised with a lot of women, so that’s why I assumed.

ANDREW: [laughs] When I said raised with a lot of women, like women coming over to the house. All my sisters’ friends and hanging around my sisters’ girlfriends and stuff. You know. [laughs]

JULIE: Okay, so both your parents raised you.

ANDREW: Yeah, but my mother was always at work. And my dad was like a stay at home dad. You know he stayed at home and cooked for us and actually did the household chores. Cause,

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actually he was doing everything. And he did teach us a little but I felt like he pushed us off into the world quick.

JULIE: What do you mean?

ANDREW: Like he pushed us off into the world quick. Like. Okay. He pushed us off into the world, like he got married. He recently got married. I want to say in 2010 he got married.

JULIE: Okay, he remarried.

ANDREW: He got remarried. You know what I’m saying? So, he pushed us off into the world, because he told me, he was like Andrew when you turn 18 I’m going to get married. He waited for my sister to turn 20 and my other sister to turn 19 and for me to turn 18. And then, that’s when he said, y’all grown. I’m going to get married now. And I taught y’all responsibilities, so it’s up to y’all to take on the responsibilities that I taught y’all. And be adults. So that’s when, he got married, he moved in with his wife and her two kids. And not mentioning that, that um, the lady he married was my mother’s friend.

JULIE: So he married your mom’s friend.

ANDREW: Yeah, you know what he was telling me, he was like, well son, he was like, would you rather for me to marry someone I don’t know and you don’t know instead of me marrying your mother’s friend. And my sister did not like it all. Both of my sisters did not like it at all, but, one of my sisters she really completely did not like it, because she didn’t understand why that he had to marry her instead of marrying someone else. You know what I’m saying? She was upset with that and then they was getting into it. You know, “Why is she not, why Celeste don’t say hey to me?”

JULIE: Oh, then your stepmom was saying that about Celeste?

ANDREW: Yeah, she was like why Celeste don’t say hey to me? She don’t speak to me when I come over. She stay in her room when I come over, she don’t come out and say anything to me. And I told the lady, I told my stepmother, I told her, I was like- I love you. I don’t know what Celeste and Tina got against you, but I love you and I want you to know this because I don’t have nothing against you. And, I know I’m going to have to be around you sometimes and whatnot and you know I was thinking about how painful it was to see my dad get married. But I didn’t, it was something like they went off to some church get married. They didn’t invite nobody.

JULIE: you weren’t invited?

ANDREW: It was just them two. They did something like that.

JULIE: It sounds like that would be hard, to not be included.

ANDREW: Yeah, it was just them two that went and got married.

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JULIE: Okay. So how was that for you?

ANDREW: You know I was kind of sad about it because I felt like they could’ve had like a big wedding. But then again, his wife don’t like my aunties. You know and for her to be a Christian, she always says god, it’s going to take god to deliver me from this, whatever it is that is causing me not to like your aunties. You know and my dad, he was like, “Well son, I don’t, your aunties don’t like me. They don’t love me.’

JULIE: These are your mom’s sisters.

ANDREW: Yeah, so my dad, like, is like the lady is brainwashing my dad to believe that my aunties don’t love him. Like for Christmas my auntie called my dad and told him that she loved him and that she also loved his wife. And I don’t know what he said, but he just said that aunt called him and said that she loved him and she loved his wife. And he was like, that’s not true. You know and I’m like, for you to be a Christian, he was saying that her love wasn’t real, he felt that her love wasn’t real. You know and, I have to look at it like, he’s real religious, he’s religious for real. You know even when we was growing up, even when me and my sister was growing up as young kids we couldn’t really go no where, you know and even when my mother was living, we couldn’t really go no where and be around family occasions and things they was having.

JULIE: How come?

ANDREW: Because my mom and dad, they was like protecting us, from things that they didn’t’ want us to be around, like drugs, alcohol, parties and stuff like. Because they were saved. My parents were saved, saved parents. They taught us everything we should know about god and you know living right. But all, since I was a little boy, since I was in elementary school, I knew I was gay. I was always attracted to men. But I never knew that I was going to, you know, no, I knew that I was going to come out and tell my family that I was gay. But I, I knew exactly the age that I was going to tell my family. And it’s strange because I knew when I was going to come out and tell them and the age was now. When I turned 19, that was when I was going to tell them. And I told them.

JULIE: How did it go, when you told them?

ANDREW: Well, my sister Tina, she was like, man, Andrew, I don’t want to hear that man. I don’t want to hear that. She was like, you is not gay. You is not no girl. And I was like, I was like, well, whatever. However you feel, that’s your opinion, but I’m going to be me. I’m going to live my life the way I want to live it because I’m happy like this. I believe god want me to be happy. He don’t want me to be sad. He don’t want me to be looking down at the ground when I’m walking. I want to be happy. Just like them. They happy. They living their lives, so I want to go on and live mine the way I want to live it. And I know god is with me always because I believe God is watching over me. Even when I think about how, how I went through some things in my life that I didn’t understand. Even when I had a stroke. Yes I did.

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JULIE: You had a stroke?

ANDREW: I had a stroke because of too much stress. Because of me losing my mother and didn’t understand why, at a young age. You know why my mother had to leave. Why I couldn’t go to the hospital and spend time with my mother. Why did my dad have to keep me from going up to the hospital to spend time with my mother as she’s in the hospital going through. Even one of the times I went up to the hospital and saw my mother she was like, Andrew I don’t want you to see me like this. She was like, um, can you leave. And I was like, yes, I will leave mom. But just, just knowing that she was going through all of this. It was hurtful because I really loved her with all my heart. And when she left it was like I lost control of myself. It was like I didn’t even know who I was no more. And then that’s when it got worse. I started doing marijuana real strong and I got laced four times.

JULIE: You got what?

ANDREW: Laced, someone laced my weed, with embalming fluid and I believe cocaine, or heroine or something. PCP. I knew it was laced because what happened was, that’s why I believe something had to do with the when I had the stroke. I went out one night and I bought some weed from this dude, and actually he did not like me. But I was like, well I don’t have anything against him, he’ll let me get some weed from him even though he don’t like me. I’m gonna get some weed from him, even though he, was going to try to run me. I don’t know I wasn’t thinking, it’s like my mind was already messed up from my mom passing away you know different things. My mind was just on getting some weed. I couldn’t get none from nobody else so I went to him, that dude who didn’t like me, and he laced it with something. And that’s when I had my stroke. My dad wasn’t at home yet, but I went home and my two sisters was there. After I smoked I already had a cigar. I rolled it up and I smoked it by myself, and when I got back home, that’s when I started hallucinating.

JULIE: What did you see?

ANDREW: I was, I, [pause] it was crazy. I just was panicking. You know what I’m saying? I start, I was like, I just got to panic and I got real hot, I got real hot. It’s like I just was hot. I got to taking off my clothes. I took off all my clothes, my socks and my shoes. I was like my body got to cramping up. And it’s like one side of my body started doing like this [curling to one side] and then my jaw got stuck. It’s like my jaw was like. [opens mouth] It’s like it was like stuck. And I lay down in the bed. I was like Celeste, help me help me. I was like Tina. It’s like my sister thought I was playing or something. She had a smile on her face. I’m like, I’m serious. I’m like, I wasn’t saying it. But I’m like, in my mind I’m like, I’m serious something is wrong with me. And so they call my dad. My dad got home and you know, he got home with my mother’s friend, they wasn’t married yet. He got home with her, they came. And, I was, I got up. Because I was glad that he made it home. And I kept saying, dad, call my brother. Before that um, before that, before my mom’s friend and her two daughters came to the house, I was telling my dad, call my brother. Call my brother. I was like, Dad call Sonny. That’s his name, Sonny, that’s what they call him, but his real name’s Sam.

JULIE: You have a brother that was from your dad.

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ANDREW: I have from my dad, I have four, no, five brothers and four sisters. No, I have two sisters and five brothers from my dad’s ex wife.

JULIE: So you wanted him to call Sam or Sonny.

ANDREW: I was telling my dad to call Sonny. I’m like, call Sonny. I don’t know why, I just kept saying that. But um, after that he was like, no son, I’m not going to call him. He called Diane, Diane is the name of my mom’s friend that my dad married. And he called her. She came over, so I laid on her. And I’m just rocking back and forth. And I’m like, what’s going with me. I’m asking them what’s happening, what’s happening. That’s when I was having my stroke, having my stroke. So when the ambulance, they just standing in the door asking my dad what’s wrong and what happened. I didn’t know, I was young. I just knew something was wrong with me. So they took me to the hospital. I really couldn’t talk or nothing. So I got to the hospital and, I was in the waiting room for about two hours, probably about 3 hours we was there waiting to be seen by a doctor. But someone came in and they took pictures. I’m like, when I thought about it, I was like- they took pictures of my mouth like that! [laughs] And after that, that’s when they sent me to a hospital in XX. It’s called St. Mary’s. You ever heard of that?

JULIE: No, I haven’t.

ANDREW: It’s called St. Mary’s. It’s a hospital in XX.

JULIE: What kind of hospital.

ANDREW: Um, it’s a Catholic hospital.

JULIE: And what sort of treatment did you get there?

ANDREW: Well they put me on a lot of medicine. A lot of medicine. I was taking like at least 10 pills.

JULIE: Wow.

ANDREW: And for the time that I was there, when it was time for me to leave, they lowered the doses, they just wanted see how I was doing being on the medicine since I had had a stroke. They wanted me to level out because it was hard for me to talk and stuff. But um, after I had the stroke. I was doing better. I was in there for at least 2 months, and then I got out. I got out, no I want to say a month and probably a week I got out and I went back home. I was doing better. Then it was like, I don’t know, I just, wasn’t myself after that.

JULIE: What do you mean?

ANDREW: I um, really, after that I started back smoking, I got laced four times. I started back smoking, got laced again. And had to go back to the hospital.

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JULIE: Did you hallucinate again?

ANDREW: Yeah, but the last time, the fourth time was the last time. You know cause I really, it’s like god was sending me signs that I need to stop while I have a chance, you know maybe because there won’t be a next time. You know, it won’t be another chance next time for me to stop, and look and just wonder for a second and say, well I wish I never did that. Maybe I won’t have time to think about it. Maybe I’ll die just like that [snaps].

JULIE: The next time you got laced.

ANDREW: The fourth time I got laced my eyes start rolling up in my head like I was having a seizure and, I was seeing things. The things I was seeing was black things running past me. And I was hearing voices.

JULIE: What were the voices saying?

ANDREW: The voices was like just whispering my name.

JULIE: Just whispering Andrew?

ANDREW: Yeah, like, they kept saying, Andrew, Andrew, Andrew, but it was like scary. Like Andrew! [whispers]. You know what I’m saying?

JULIE: Sinister, they sounded sinister.

ANDREW: Like demons. [laughs]

JULIE: Like demons, okay. So that sounds really scary.

ANDREW: It was. So I was like, you know I was like, I can’t take this no more, I can’t take this no more, so I grabbed my bag I started throwing clothes in my bag. And I threw my deodorant. I was just, my cologne, my pair of shoes, my underwear. What else did I get? I got some more stuff, and I just hurry up and zipped it up and I put on my shoes and my coat. Girl I put it on my and I told the staff lady at the group home, like I’m going back to the hospital. I don’t feel right. I don’t feel right. I don’t know what’s going on, I’m hallucinating. I can’t even look her in her eyes. I couldn’t look nobody in her eyes because my eyes going up like that [rolls eyes up]. And I was trying to look her in her eyes but I couldn’t because my eyes was like this. This is exactly how my eyes was going [rolls eyes up, eyelids fluttering]. I couldn’t look at nobody. It was a scary feeling.

JULIE: Like you’re all alone, you can’t look at anyone.

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: And so you ran away from the group home?

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ANDREW: How did you know that?

JULIE: Well you said you were packing up a back and so I assumed you were going to leave.

ANDREW: I ran away.

JULIE: Okay, where’d you go?

ANDREW: I went, um.

JULIE: Oh, and how old were you when this was happening?

ANDREW: This happened last year. I was 19.

JULIE: Okay, was this right before you ended up in Woodside?

ANDREW: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Ok. So go ahead, sorry. So you packed up everything, you couldn’t look anyone in the eye and you ran…

ANDREW: I packed up everything, but, see I didn’t get to the part where I ranned away yet. [laughs]

JULIE: Okay, sorry, I jumped ahead. I’ll let you tell the story- go ahead.

ANDREW: [laughs] When, what happened was, I packed my bag and I went to the hospital. After I packed all my stuff I went to the hospital. Because you know you have to have clothes so you can change your clothes at the hospital so you won’t have to wear one outfit the whole week that you’re there. So I went to the hospital and uh, I was like, I feel. The man came. First I was telling the lady I really need to see someone. I need to go back to the psych unit. I need to go back to the psych ward. They call it a psych ward. I need to go back up there because I just, I smoked some weed and I don’t feel right. I’m hallucinating and I just couldn’t look at nobody. It’s like my eyes kept doing like this. [demonstrated]. Just kept doing it. And I was like stuck. I’m remembering too much [laughs]. I was scared. Just put it like that- I was scared. Okay, so.

JULIE: What are you remembering?

ANDREW: I’m remembering when my eyes couldn’t stop rolling behind my head, and the voices and the things I was seeing.

JULIE: The black things back and forth?

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: You’re safe now.

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ANDREW: I know. I don’t want to go back to smoking. Because it’s scary. I don’t want to. I’m scared that I might die if I smoke weed again.

JULIE: Yeah, you’ve been lucky so far.

ANDREW: I know.

JULIE: So when you were in the psych ward, you asked to be taken back to the psych ward and what did they do?

ANDREW: They, this man came down and the same man that was there when I was there last time. This not is like the third time I got laced. I skipped the second time, that story. But I moved onto the third. Because the second time I got laced, didn’t nothing really happen I just was too high and I just passed out. I went to sleep. Because I guess it was just like some PCP or something. I don’t know what it was but, didn’t nothing really happen the second time I got laced I just was hearing voices.

JULIE: What were they saying?

ANDREW: The same thing.

JULIE: Your name?

ANDREW: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Okay.

ANDREW: I think that’s scary.

JULIE: Yeah, whispering your name.

ANDREW: Yeah, that. In like a rage voice.

JULIE: Did it remind you of anyone that you know.

ANDREW: That scary movie.

JULIE: Okay, scary movie.

ANDREW: So, the third time I got laced, well anyway, I went to the hospital, the man came down. He saw me. And so he came and looked at me, you know examined me, and he was like, well, you know, you don’t need to be here man. You don’t need to be in this place. And I was like well, I just, I was crying a little bit, I was like I smoked some weed and someone laced it and I’m not feeling right. I need to come back to the psych unit. So he was like, well, it’s up to the doctor. So he left. And a nurse came in, and she was like, well we going to send you up there. So

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they, I had to take off all my clothes, my jewelry and stuff and they put it in a Ziploc bag. And they gave it to me. I was in a wheel chair and they took me up to the psych ward. That’s when my eyes was still doing what they was doing. And I was talking to the lady. I had some glasses, I couldn’t find my glasses! [laughs] I took my glasses off and I didn’t know what I did with them. I was like, I must have threw them away or somebody took em or something. Because I couldn’t find them. But um, when I went up there, to the psych ward I just went straight- they took me to my room. And I went to sleep. And the next day I woke up. I stayed asleep that whole entire day and I woke up the next day and my eyes had stopped.

JULIE: Oh good.

ANDREW: So I was happy.

JULIE: How long did you end up having to stay on the psych ward that time?

ANDREW: Just about two weeks.

JULIE: Oh, okay.

ANDREW: And they let me out and the let me go home, back to the group home. And then, I had to go back again.

JULIE: The fourth time it got laced?

ANDREW: No, you know what. The time I packed my bag and went back to the hospital, I stayed there. The time, you know I told you the time I packed my bag and went to the hospital. I packed it, I went back to the psych ward. Before that, I was already in Presbyterian for the second time.

JULIE: So you’d been in Presbyterian twice?

ANDREW: I went there, yeah twice.

JULIE: Okay, and that was your third time?

ANDREW: My third time, the second time they let me go home. The third time they kept me in there.

JULIE: For two weeks?

ANDREW: Actually for three weeks. No, I want to say, two months they kept me in there. Scuze me. They kept me in there for two months. And, because they was going to send me here. They was going to send me here. They told me that, that I was going to go, I was going to come here. Then, after that, that’s when um, he was like, well, um, since no one is responding to us from this place, Woodside State Hospital. Since no one is responding to our calls and our e-mails, we gonna let you go back home.

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JULIE: To the group home?

ANDREW: To the group home. And he was like, the next time you come back, the doctor say he’s going to stamp the paper and you goin’ for real.

JULIE: To Woodside.

ANDREW: To Woodside State Hospital. So I end up coming back, I came back because I was scared, I was just scared. No the reason I came back was because I was trying to kill myself.

JULIE: Okay.

ANDREW: I had a comb, I was trying to

JULIE: Stab yourself?

ANDREW: Stab myself with a comb in my belly button. I was trying to open, like see if it was going to go through.

JULIE: Why did you want to kill yourself?

ANDREW: Because I felt all alone. I felt like I was just out there and it’s like my mind was kind of half-way gone. I didn’t have my mind all the way.

JULIE: What do you mean?

ANDREW: It’s like a part of my mind was gone. I can’t explain it but it was like, I wasn’t myself. I just knew. And it’s like, now that I’ve been here in this place. It’s like I kinda’ woke up. You know? Like, time to take things seriously. You know, and stop fooling around and you know thinking everything is a joke and you know it’s time for me to just live my life, you know, the best way I can so that when it’s time for me to leave this place, I will be ready to go be with my mother. And I want to tell you one thing. When I was staying out there in that group home. I was standing outside of the door at the group home and I was talking to one of the staffs and both of us was smoking a cigarette and um, she left and she went back. Because we was talking about gospel, gospel music. And we was talking about her mother. And, how her mother passed away. And I was talking about my mother, how she passed away and I miss her and stuff. She went back in, she threw her cigarette and she went back in. But before this happened I was praying, I was seeking god, and I was just praying to god, I was crying out to god asking him, “Why did you have to take my mother?” Because I was so sad about it. I was sad because my mother was gone. And I was just crying. I was doing, I wasn’t eating nothing. It’s like I was just fasting and praying and praying. You know just seeking god. You know and it and then, god, seeking god so much it’s like god showed me a picture of my mother inside the moon. I’m not lying. He showed me mother’s face. I don’t know why, but her eyes was blood-shot red. She was just looking me. She was looking at me, she was smiling. And you know I was just, I couldn’t, my eyes couldn’t shut at all. It was like I was just, daydreaming on the moon. It was night time and I was just

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looking at the moon, I was just lookin at her. I was just crying and crying and crying. And so after that, it just, the moon was going back and forth like this. [moves hand back and forth in front of his face]. You ever seen the moon goin back and forth like this?

JULIE: uh uh

ANDREW: The moon was going back and forth like this, like this.

JULIE: Wow.

ANDREW: And I was just lookin at it, I was just lookin and tears was just falling. And I believe that happened because of how much I seeked god. You know what I’m saying? It comes a time for everybody when they need to sit down and think about how good god it. You know, and everything he did on Cavalry, for us. You know we are his children. You know what I’m saying? And when I think about how god been so good to me through all these times in my life, sometimes I wonder, why did I go through these things? Sometimes I wonder why I’m gay, and, but everything has a reason to it. If I could help it, I would be with a woman. But I just, it’s not there, that that touch and that feeling for women is not there, I just can’t be with one. I like men. So I, I’d rather stay this way and people. My auntie is saying, well it’s all up to god to change you. I was like I know god could change me, but I don’t believe that he wanna change me. You know what I’m saying?

JULIE: He’s happy with you the way you are.

ANDREW: Right.

JULIE: He made you that way for a reason.

ANDREW: Right, that’s how I feel too. So when I think about it, I just think that all in a matter of time my family gonna realize they need me. They gonna realize that they need me and how the way they treated me when I was growing up, they always called me weird, and they didn’t want to be around me.

JULIE: When you were little?

ANDREW: When I was little. They used to call me gay, faggot, and all types of stuff like that. You know it hurted me when I was little. But now words don’t even hurt me. Because I know who I am. You know what I’m saying?

JULIE: It sounds like you had to fight hard to figure out who you were though.

ANDREW: I did. I did.

JULIE: Yeah.

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ANDREW: It was hard when I was little growing up. But now I know that everything is all right because god got my back. You know when it comes down to the end of the day I know that god is with me. When nobody else is with me and I feel all alone, I know he is with me. You know I really believe in him You know what I’m saying?

JULIE: Mm-hmmm, yeah.

ANDREW: [laughs]

JULIE: So, it sounds like starting when you were 12, that’s when you were smoking a lot of weed and then you ended up being hospitalized at age 12.

ANDREW: Yeah, all the way up to the age of 16.

JULIE: OK, when did you end up in the group home?

ANDREW: Well, actually, um, the time my dad got married, me and my two sisters didn’t have nowhere to go. My dad was going to leave us the house that we was living in but my sister got into it with the next door neighbors. Some girls they was just fighting, and we end up having to leave the house. You know we couldn’t stay there no more. So my sister Celeste moved in her boyfriend and my sister Tina and me went to go live with my auntie down the street.

JULIE: You were 18 and she was 19?

ANDREW: Yeah, we went to go stay, we went to go stay with um, my auntie. She stayed not in XX where we stayed at, but just down the street. So you took a little walk, but it wasn’t that from where we stayed at. But she stayed off the premises of where we stayed at. Like, you know how you go out the gates of this place? That’s kind of how far where it was.

JULIE: Your auntie?

ANDREW: Yeah, that’s where she was at. So we stayed there. It was like we stayed there, I want to say for about 5 months, till my auntie, we was just all of the teenagers staying there in the house. My auntie, she was staying in the day care. She had a day care, she was staying at. So she would come over and check on us every once in a while. So, we was having, we was throwing little parties and stuff [laughs]. We was throwing little parties and stuff, we had people coming over and we had little parties. And we’d be drinking and stuff, you know smoking weed and just kicking it, smoking cigarettes and just having fun. And, we never got caught though. But my auntie said that she dreams that, she had dreams of different cars coming in and pulling in and selling drugs and, stuff like that. And, she said, but, every time my auntie came over the house was messed up. And she wanted everybody, she was like, everybody need to do chores. People weren’t doing their chores. And she got tired of it. You know what I’m saying. So she said everybody gotta leave. Everybody gonna split up. She told us where we going and, stuff like that. Everybody split up. So she told my sister that she’s coming with her. I would’ve went with my auntie, I would’ve been staying with my auntie right now, but because of my illness and because

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of the way I flipped out before. One time I flipped out and tore up my sister’s room. It’s a lot of things happened in my life, I can’t get to everything today.

JULIE: That’s okay, we’ll talk a few more times.

ANDREW: Okay, well I was saying, my sister’s room, and I got to, like you see everything put together here? I actually threw up everything. Everything was on the floor.

JULIE: How old were you when that happened?

ANDREW: I was 13.

JULIE: And why did you do that?

ANDREW: Because I was upset with everything. I was scared. A part of my mind was gone. I never had a, you never had a part of your mind been gone, have you?

JULIE: No.

ANDREW: It’s a scary feeling. You’ll never want it to happen to you. That’s a scary feeling, losing part of your mind. It’s like half of your mind is not there and you someone else.

JULIE: You felt like you were someone else?

ANDREW: Yeah, that I didn’t know who it was.

JULIE: Felt like you were a stranger?

ANDREW: Stranger to myself. Like and it was scary because, it’s like, I wasn’t there anymore. It’s like Andrew left, but I didn’t know where he went. And I was somebody else that say, like somebody else, like another name, like another life that I was living that I didn’t know where I went.

JULIE: Would that happen a lot? That shift between you and losing your mind and becoming someone else?

ANDREW: That happened a lot in my life.

JULIE: When’s the first time that it happened.

ANDREW: It happened when my mother was living too. But I don’t think they knew because I was young. But I remember it. I don’t think they knew that part of my mind was gone. It was just something that I knew.

JULIE: Yeah.

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ANDREW: You know what I’m saying?

JULIE: It was something that nobody could see from the outside, but that you could feel.

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: So were you like six or seven or even younger when it first started happening?

ANDREW: I was younger.

JULIE: Maybe two or three?

ANDREW: I want to say around, six or seven.

JULIE: Six or seven years old. Okay.

ANDREW: It happened. You know what I’m saying. And I was scared. And I just wanted to lay under my mother. But she had always had to go to work and stuff. And it was just hard. You know my life just been so strange. It just been strange you know all through my life growing up, it just been strange. You know what I’m saying? I don’t understand it. But I know god is with me always. You know I just have to keep saying it because- [becomes tearful]

JULIE: What’s wrong?

ANDREW: I’m sorry.

JULIE: That’s okay. Here let me get you a Kleenex.

ANDREW: It was some scary times I had to go through. [tearful] Scary moments and stuff that just I, I understand why I had to go through things I been through. Losing my mind. It’s so scary losing your mind. It’s just, I can’t even explain it completely to you because it was so scary, just losing my mind. It was like I couldn’t cause myself to come back. I couldn’t say – come back Andrew, come back to your senses. I couldn’t, just my mind was gone. And it hurted. I didn’t know what to do, I was young.

JULIE: That sounds so scary.

ANDREW: I couldn’t tell my mother that my mind was gone. Or my dad. I didn’t know what to say.

JULIE: You didn’t even know how to express it.

ANDREW: Right. But I was the only one that knew it.

JULIE: You must have felt so lonely.

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ANDREW: I did. I felt lonely. It’s like something told me that my mother was going to die. But I didn’t believe it. And remember one time [mumbles] my mother was going to die, if it’s meant for my mother to live, let it be. Or if it’s meant for my mother to die, let it be. That’s what I told god. And I guess it was meant for her to die.

JULIE: It’s hard to make sense out of why her. Why your mom.

ANDREW: Right [cries]. [long pause] It hurts, just thinking about it. It’s like the only person, she was like the only person that loved me, and I knew that loved me. You know and I just don’t how it would’ve been if she was still living. I don’t know if she would’ve accepted me for who I am. You know me being gay and being her son. So I think god took her for a reason. I believe he took her for a reason.

JULIE: And you think that reason is? Or do you have a sense of what that reason is?

ANDREW: I think because, because of me being gay. I think it had something to do with god wanting to use me, in some type of way, to help others, I believe. You know for me to just be gay and live my life. And take my mother so she, because she, her mother passed away. I was away when my mother, when her mother passed away. And my mother, but I believe she went through the same thing I’m going through. You know what I’m saying, when she lost her mother because my mother got sick. She had a tumor in her stomach the size of a football.

JULIE: Oh my gosh, that’s huge.

ANDREW: They had to do surgery on her to take it out. Then she got another one in her, and then she got kidney stones. And all of this stuff. And the last time she had a tumor, it’s like this stuff would just come up - I don’t know if it was, people doing stuff to her. You know, do you believe in witches and warlocks?

JULIE: Um I don’t personally, but, I’m not saying, what do I know?

ANDREW: You know I don’t really care about it, but saved people, you know so called Christians and stuff, cause sometimes they can be fake people. That say they’re they are a Christian, or they saved or otherwise they living for god and it be something fake because they’re not really living for god. And they consider their selves being with god in his secret places and praying to him and kneeling down before him and seeking him and sometimes it can be fake. Because one thing, they say one thing, then it’s another thing.

JULIE: Did you have a lot of experiences with people who were fake like that?

ANDREW: Yeah, actually, coming here, I met someone like that. And, [pause] this one person I met here, he’s like that and, I just don’t understand sometimes why people who, he be rude, and just I don’t know, and just something ain’t right about him. I don’t know I don’t really like to talk too much about people because I don’t like to be judgmental against people. You know what I’m saying? That’s not right, but, he’s not right, you know. He, I believe he can be a better person than that, then I believe that he really don’t know what he be talking about. I believe he

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do have a mental illness for real. And that’s okay, You know what I’m saying. It’s okay to have a mental illness. Ain’t nothing wrong with it. Because I believe that I have one, but I just believe mine doesn’t really show as well as others’ does. You know what I’m saying?

JULIE: What do you think about. Can you tell me more about how you see your mental illness?

ANDREW: I see mine as being hidden.

JULIE: Hidden, okay.

ANDREW: Most of the time, when I get sick is in November and December. November and December is when. When I was staying back in XXX, I was staying in XX, it’s like a village of houses and then they got they xx apartments, the xx houses. I was staying in the XX house. It was me, my dad, my two sisters and my mom. My mom was sick, she struggled with cancer for a year before she passed away. And, um, the hospital brought her home. Because she, one time my dad let me listen to her on the phone. I was talking to her and she was like “Andrew.” I knew she wasn’t herself. I knew she wasn’t, she was like, “Andrew, I want to come home.” She was like, “I want to come home.” And, I was like, Mom, you can come home. I was young you know. I was like, “Mom, I want you to come home too.” And I was like, Dad, “Is she going to come home?” And she came home for Thanksgiving, but they had her still in the hospital bed. They brought the hospital bed in through the door and pushed it back into the room, one of the rooms in the house. And the same night she went back to the hospital. It was sad because I couldn’t do nothing to help her. I was scared to touch her. I was scared, I heard her moaning and hurting all night. And I’m like, why did I have to go through this? Why did I have to see her go through this and I couldn’t do anything for her? I couldn’t do anything for her. You know what I’m saying? I wish I, I wish I could’ve went in there and prayed for her. I wish I would’ve took the time I was setting in my bed and crying when I could’ve got up and went in there and held her hand and said it’s gonna be all right and prayed for her.

JULIE: You were just a little kid, and that would’ve been really scary for you. To see her like that. IM it sounds like it was really hard for you to be around her when she was so,

ANDREW: Sick

JULIE: Sick. Which is understandable for, you where what- eleven?

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: Yeah, it’s hard for an eleven-year-old to understand. But you wish you would’ve gone.

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: And you could’ve done something for her.

ANDREW: I wish I could’ve.

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JULIE: Yeah.

ANDREW: I don’t know, I just miss her a lot. But I know that she’s in a better place. Because she was an evangelist. She was a type of person that um, goes around and preach in different churches. She was a, she was really a Christian. You know she was spiritual and everything. You know they say a little bit of religion and a little bit of spiritual-ality. That was her. You know she was a good woman. She was a very good person. I believe that’s, I get some of the goodness, goodness from her. You know what I’m saying?

JULIE: She was a really good person.

ANDREW: She was, and I loved her so much.

JULIE: I can see that, yeah.

ANDREW: I just wish she was still here with me. But I will see her one day in heaven. I just have to worry about myself, I can’t be worried about other people and their problems. You know sometimes it’s okay to worry about other people and their problems, but it’s best that you be concerned about yourself, how you gonna make it in life and how you gonna get yourself to the next level in life and, you know learning new things and how to cope with stress and depression and know how to think before you do things that’s wrong. Like, I’m saying for myself like, before I start back smoking weed. I have to think twice about things, not just something comes in my head- you say, “Andrew go ahead, you can smoke it, ain’t nothing going to happen to you.” That’s the enemy talking.

JULIE: Yeah. So do you mind if we go back a sec to what you were talking about a moment ago, you were saying that um, you tend to get sick around November- December.

ANDREW: Mm-hmmm. It’s like every November and December I get sick. I don’t know why. It’s like, I don’t know I think it’s because of the pain that I’ve been through in my life. And I think it’s like a circle of reality that rewinds itself back in time to cause me to remember so much about those months.

JULIE: What happened in those months?

ANDREW: My mom dies December 29th. Right after Christmas. My dad told us that my mom was going to be with us for thanksgiving and Christmas. And she was. She made it through. She made it through November and December to be with us. And, I think those are one of the reasons every time November and December come around, I’m either in the hospital, or I get sick.

JULIE: When you say, get sick, what happens to you when you get sick?

ANDREW: I go to the hospital.

JULIE: Do you hear voices, or?

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ANDREW: It’s like my mind leave.

JULIE: Your mind leaves, yeah. That’s what happens when you get sick.

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: That’s so scary for you.

ANDREW: Yeah, it is. So I’m trying to just, really, and I believe it, it becomes a factor for me. Because, I don’t understand why it happens, I don’t. It’s a lot of weird things go on in my life. And one of the things are when my mind leaves. I don’t understand why that happens. And it’s scary. I just don’t want it to happen again, because I don’t want to get caught in that moment again.

JULIE: Caught in that moment? Where it’s gone?

ANDREW: Yeah. It’s scary. It is.

JULIE: I’m sure it is. Yeah. You’re not sure if it’ll come back.

ANDREW: Right.

JULIE: You said a lot of other strange things have happened to you. What are some of the other strange things?

ANDREW: Well one time I was um, I was at home and, I was, I stayed up. This was when I was taking my medicine. The doctor prescribed some medicine for me and I was taking it. I got upset because I wanted to be like everybody else. I was like, “Why I gotta be the only person in my family taking medication?” I was like, “Why I gotta be the only person in my family taking psych medication? Why I have to be the only one?” And it’s like my sisters then looked at me like, “Well, Andrew, you can’t smoke with us because you take medication.” I was like, “Well, the medication don’t have nothing to do with me smoking weed”- which it did. You know and I was, actually, like I was killing myself smoking weed and doing marijuana at the same time. So I was like, I’m going to stop taking this one pill. Which that one pill was helping me to survive. But I stopped taking it and my dad was fussing at me. And I was like “I don’t want to hear it because I’m not taking it no more. I don’t want to take it anymore because it’s not doing anything for me”- which it was. But I was saying that because I was tired of taking it. I wanted to be like everybody else. And so, one day, I went, I went to school. I was crying when everybody got off the bus. I was talking to the bus lady that drives the bus. And I got to crying and crying and crying so hard. I’m like, I’m just sick of my father, I’m sick of everything. I just wish my mother was here. I wish god would’ve took my dad and my mother would’ve stayed. Which I should never have said that, but it was the truth. I was mad at him. You know what I’m saying, for not letting us go up to the hospital and spend time with my mother. We didn’t do that. He was the only one going. He was just worried about us. I believe he was worried about us, our feelings being hurt seeing our mother like that. But I believe we should’ve saw her like that, you know since that was our mother. You know what I’m saying. And so,

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JULIE: And so you were crying to the bus driver.

ANDREW: So I was crying to the bus driver. So when I went into the school. I was crying, it was like my heart was broken. Was just broken. It’s like, because if I don’t take my medication, I’m telling you, I’m a whole other person. I don’t understand why. I’m not like. It’s like my mind, and that’s one of the reasons too, why I take this medication because if I don’t take it, my mind will leave, like for real. And I won’t be my, I won’t be Andrew, I’ll be Bob Tintures or something. [laughs] Don’t even know who I am. And that’s strange.

JULIE: Yeah.

ANDREW: So.

JULIE: So you went to the school and you were crying.

ANDREW: I went inside and I was still crying and stuff. Really wasn’t nobody paying attention. I wasn’t really trying to be seen by nobody. It’s like was just all in my own moment of crying. So this lady walk up to me and she one of the lady that work there. And she took me into this room and she was asking me what was wrong with me. I was like, I miss my mother, I miss my mother, I miss my mother. And stuff like that, so. She was talking to me, she was like, well it’s okay, it’s gonna be all right. And I was like, I just want to be successful in life, I just wanna do some of the things my mother did before she left this world. And she was just talking to me and stuff and, one of the weird things that happened to me was, when we was watching a movie and, the people inside the TV were staring at me. They was looking at me. It was like their eyes was focused on me. And they was talking to me. It’s like the computer, the music, I thought that I had made up my own music. It’s like when I was listening to the music it was this iPod and I was like this is MY music. I was like, I was like, I made this music. It was stranger, like I was somebody else though thinking that this music was made by me. I’m listening to it because I think that somebody made this music for me to listen to. You know what I’m saying?

JULIE: Like it was made just for you?

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: It was made just special for you.

ANDREW: Yeah, to listen to. To make me feel good, because I love music. So I’m listening to it and I’m feeling good and everybody want to listen to what I’m listening to. So they’re like, let me have the iPod. They take it and I’m like, can I get it back? And they was like, no. So it’s like, I was kind of like upset. It was strange, I really can’t explain it.

JULIE: Feeling like, the things people were watching you from the TV or things were made just for you.

ANDREW: Yeah, it was weird, I’m telling you.

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JULIE: How old were you when that was going on?

ANDREW: I was 15 or 16. And then one time, like the one time I was at home, and um, I was laying down, I was reading my bible. I started reading my bible around like, 6 o’clock in the afternoon, I mean in the evening time. And I read it up till like, 4 something in the morning. I stayed up that late, reading my bible. Just reading the book about domeronomy. What is it?

JULIE: Deuteronomy?

ANDREW: Yeah, Deuteronomy. I was reading that book and I was reading like Josh- Joshua.

JULIE: Sure, maybe, I don’t know all the books that well.

ANDREW: [laughs] I don’t know all the books either. But I think it was um, not the book of Joshua, but um it was the book of John- that’s what it was, the book of John. Cause I don’t read all the books in the bible. I just read some of them. I like the book of Psalms, you know that one don’t you?

JULIE: Um, I’ve heard of it, yeah.

ANDREW: But I was reading the book of Psalms and the book of John.

JULIE: And you stayed up until 4 am?

ANDREW: Four a.m. in the morning. So, but at that time, it’s like I still wasn’t myself, my mind was gone. Recently I just got out the hospital, remember I told you I started back smoking weed, and, I was so-called supposing to be saved. You hear what I’m saying?

JULIE: You were supposedly being saved?

ANDREW: Saved, like a Christian.

JULIE: Yeah, okay.

ANDREW: So, it was like, well, um, at that time I was a Christian, it’s just I was off-balanced a little bit with smoking weed. I had little problems in my life that was interfering with my Christian life, you know at that time. And at that moment, but I to let, I let the weed go for a little while. I said, God I’m going to give my life completely to you. So I left the weed alone for 3 months and I was praying and seeking god again, you know. I was praying and stuff and, you know really living like I was supposed to. I’m doing it now, but it’s like now that I’m living a Christian life, it’s not hard at all. It’s not hard, I wouldn’t say living saved is hard, but it’s not easy, either. You know it’s some things you have to go through to get to where you want to go in life and I believe that it’s believing and trusting in him that he can do anything for you. But to get back to the story, um, where I was at?

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JULIE: You were talking about staying up until 4 a.m. reading.

ANDREW: Yeah, so the next day I woke up and it was like I was watching TV. I stopped at 4 o’clock in the morning and I got to watching TV. And it was like the people on TV, remember it was the same night I came home from school, from the time I talked, remember from the day before, this was the same day I came home from school that day.

JULIE: Where you’d been crying.

ANDREW: The day I was crying.

JULIE: Okay.

ANDREW: And um, then I saw the people in the TV looking at me and talking to me. It was like they way froze and they would just look at me and actually talk to me.

JULIE: What would they say?

ANDREW: They was just saying stuff. It’s like they was talking to each other but it was about me. So when I got home I started watching TV about 4 o’clock that morning. So I stayed up from 6 o’clock that evening all the way to four o’clock in the morning. And I was watching, I turned the TV on at four o’clock and I’m watching it and so, it’s like they talking to me. And it’s like I was hearing people voices and thinking that it’s people voices, it’s those people from that school, it’s their voices. I’m thinking it’s their voices, like it’s not them on the TV, but it’s their voices, I’m hearing all type of voices and I’m thinking it’s people that I know- their voices. You understand what I’m saying?

JULIE: Yeah you thought the voices that you were hearing from the TV were the voices of people you knew.

ANDREW: Yeah, and I thought they was talking to me.

JULIE: What were they saying?

ANDREW: Just saying like, just saying things about me.

JULIE: Like what.

ANDREW: Like I don’t too much remember, but I can think, um, like – like this man ain’t going nowhere, he’s stuck. His mind is gone. And I believe those was demons talking, messing with me. Cause you know demons are real. I believe so. [laughs]

JULIE: So those were demons messing with you.

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ANDREW: I believe so. It’s like a war going on. I think a war be going on in my life, and like different things between me, between god and the devil and me. Like the devil try to attack me with different things in my life. And cause me to fall under. You know what I’m saying?

JULIE: Um, you’re saying the devil is trying to trip you up?

ANDREW: yeah.

JULIE: I was wondering about your experience at school?

ANDREW: What about it?

JULIE: Did you have a lot of good friends growing up or?

ANDREW: You know what, it was people that liked me, but I never went to high school before. I never experienced that. I got sick in um, in the 8th grade, I got sick. I went to this alternative school for bad kids because I was, I got caught in middle school smoking weed in the bathrooms and bringing weed to school, coming to school high, being late, being in detention, so I couldn’t stay at middle school for the 8th grade, so I had to go to alternative school and do my 8th grade year there. So I didn’t go to high school. So, being there it was like, being at the alternative school, it was kind of crazy because I was scared to be there with these people that I didn’t know. And at that time, my mind was gone too. I gotta’ pee.

[Break]

JULIE: So I’d asked about school and friends.

ANDREW: Well, being at school was like, didn’t nobody mess with me. You know what I’m saying. Didn’t nobody ever want to fight me or nothing. It’s like I was just an ordinary guy. It just, just for some reason, didn’t nobody want to start no fights with me or nothing, I was just mostly, just having fun. Just being a young boy.

JULIE: Okay. So did you have close friends?

ANDREW: Never did. It’s like I never fitted in.

JULIE: That’s really tough.

ANDREW: I know.

JULIE: Was it hard to get along with other boys?

ANDREW: I couldn’t get along with boys, it’s like, I wouldn’t fit in with them. I would see boys as like being a boyfriend. Like, not like a boyfriend like a friend but like a boyfriend. You know what I’m saying?

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JULIE: Romantically.

ANDREW: Yeah, that’s all I saw as boys being to me. And I see females as being like girlfriends, like you know – hey girl, we gonna go out tonight, we’ll have a good time. We gonna see all the sexy men. You know what I’m saying? [laughs]

JULIE: Yeah.

ANDREW: That’s how it is for me. I don’t know why it’s like this, it’s just who I am. I can’t change it. Can’t nobody change it. God could change it if he wanted to.

JULIE: It sounds like growing up you were pretty lonely.

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: Nobody messed with you or picked on you, but also nobody hung out with you.

ANDREW: Right.

JULIE: Okay. And you said, in your family they called you…

ANDREW: Weird, gay, faggot. You don’t wanna be around him. They’d leave me out of some of the things they’d do, like activities. [sigh]

JULIE: How did you make sense out of that as a little kid?

ANDREW: I just saw it as them being mean.

JULIE: And did you mom or your dad ever talk to you about it? Or did they call you names too?

ANDREW: No my mom and dad never called me names. I know my sister Tina did. We don’t get along at all. Like one time I called my sister, Celeste on her cell phone and Tina answered and I was like- “Hey Tini, how you doin’ girl?” She was like, “I’m doing good,” she sounding all depressed and shit. [laughs] so I’m like, um, I’m like, “How you doing? It’s good to hear your voice.” She was like, “Oh thank you.” I was like, “Where Celeste,” she acted like she didn’t want to tell me where Celeste was. I’m like, “So you’re not going to tell me where she went?” She was like, “She’s out.” I was like, “What’s wrong with you?” She was acting weird. So I was like, “If you’re going to be acting like that and this and that, I don’t want to talk to you.” And then she was like, “What are you talking about?” I was like, “You. What is wrong with you?” And I was like, I was like, anyway. I was like, “I can’t wait till I get back, I’m gonna get my nails done.” She was like, “See if you gonna be talking like that I’m gonna hang up on your ass.” And I was like, “You know what? Bye.” And I hung up.

JULIE: She didn’t accept that.

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ANDREW: She don’t accept it all. That’s one of the reasons I don’t want to go back to XXX, because when I go back, I don’t give a fuck about what they gonna think about me. I’m gonna get my nails did. I’m gonna keep putting my makeup done. Which I don’t have it on today [laughs] but I’m gonna have it on tomorrow. But you know what I’m saying, it’s like they, they don’t accept it. They don’t accept it at all. None of them. Not even my dad or my stepmother. My dad talking about “Well, you’re still my son, I still love you. I just don’t like the fact that you’re gay.’

JULIE: Ouch.

ANDREW: So that’s one of the reasons I don’t wanna be around them. They don’t understand me. It’s like they just want to see it how they see it. When I try to explain something to them, it’s always- “Well you’re gonna go to hell.” That’s all they say. And then I see it as them, their sins, you know, like my sister, she told me I’m gonna go to hell. And she’s all having sex and she’s not even married. That’s a sin! [laughs] So I kind of threw it back at her in her face and she’s like, “Well, having kids is a lovable thing.” I’m like, “Okay, but- [laughs]

JULIE: But you’re supposed to be married before you have the kids?

ANDREW: Right! [laughs] Now you see my sin as being gay and I’m, and being gay is just liking the men. And maybe in a romantic way, and loving him and being there for them. And I’m wondering how is that possibly wrong? I mean you don’t understand it, you don’t understand the meaning of it because you’re not me. You know what I’m saying?

JULIE: How could that be wrong? To want to be in a committed relationship with another person.

ANDREW: Right.

JULIE: Who just happens to be a man.

ANDREW: Right. And god understands that. He does. I know he do. But it just be so hard for other peoples to understand. They can’t understand my heart and where it’s going.

JULIE: Who does understand you at this point?

ANDREW: You.

JULIE: Thanks. Who else?

ANDREW: God. That’s about it. [laughs] and I believe Erica understands.

JULIE: She’s your therapist right?

ANDREW: Yeah.

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JULIE: Good, I’m glad your therapist understands you. Anyone else?

ANDREW: Miss Norma. You know Miss Janie?

JULIE: No.

ANDREW: It’s a lady on my unit. She’s a Christian lady. Spiritual. Yeah.

JULIE: So a small handful of people understand you.

ANDREW: Just a small handful, not a lot.

JULIE: I wonder if that’s hard not to have more people who you feel like understand you.

ANDREW: Yeah, it’s hard.

JULIE: Lonely?

ANDREW: Lonely.

JULIE: Well, I was wondering about, understandably November and December are really hard months for you because that’s when your mom got really sick and passed away.

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: I was wondering if anything else ever happened in November – December, maybe when you were younger, before then?

ANDREW: I don’t remember.

JULIE: Okay.

ANDREW: All I remember is with my mother. With her getting really sick and getting ready to pass away. Because I remember November, she was in the hospital and um, her eyes stayed open. They would not close at all. And remember I told you that’s what happened to me when I was lookin’ at her in the moon in they sky? My eyes stayed open and would not close at all. Tears was just falling. And it’s the same thing that happened to her when she was laying in her sick bed. Her eyes stayed open. She was looking at me but she couldn’t say anything. She couldn’t let me know that she was there.

JULIE: So it was like she was physically there but didn’t seem like she was there.

ANDREW: Yeah. And they had tubes in her nose and down her throat to help her breath.

JULIE: Yeah, that was hard to see her like that.

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ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: Did you get to say goodbye to her?

ANDREW: [shakes head no; tearful]

JULIE: I’m sorry. [pause] We’ve talked for a while today. Should we call it for the day?

ANDREW: Yeah.

Second Interview with Andrew

JULIE: Um, so I guess we could start with, um, what was your role in your family?

ANDREW: What do you mean by that?

JULIE: Um, if you were to say like, what you-

ANDREW: I was like the weird one.

JULIE: You were the weird one.

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay. You were the weird one.

ANDREW: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Okay. Um, who do you feel close to right now?

ANDREW: Nobody.

JULIE: Nobody. Have you ever felt close to someone?

ANDREW: Yeah, my sister.

JULIE: Okay.

ANDREW: (know?) what I have to say, that I feel close to my sister, it’s probably just since I haven’t seen her in a long time, it’s like, um, it’s like I haven’t, I haven’t seen her. It’s, You know what I’m saying, it’s like I’ve been away from her for a long time, so it’s like, it’s like I just never seen her before.

JULIE: Can you tell me more about what that’s like for you?

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ANDREW: It’s like, it’s painful not having nobody to support me. You know, they think I’m weird still because, they say that I’m out of my mind for, for being gay and stuff like that. It’s just, I don’t know, [pause]

JULIE: It’s really tough, being so alone.

ANDREW: Yeah. It’s tough.

JULIE: And you said not seeing your sister, feels like you’ve never seen her, almost.

ANDREW: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: When did it start feeling like that?

ANDREW: About last, the end of last month.

JULIE: What did you notice?

ANDREW: I noticed that, it got hard, harder with being away from my family, cause I(‘ll?) always love my family it’s just that um, being away from them make me feel like I’m not close to them. Like I, like, like it was even at first when I felt wasn’t close at all. You know what I’m saying?

JULIE: Not sure, can you say more?

ANDREW: It’s like being, being without them, is like impossible. Like I don’t understand why they choose not to wanna’ be around me when I want to be around them. And it’s different cause I, I don’t understand why they don’t wanna be around me. Or wanna talk to me or, I don’t know if it’s that way or if I just feel that way.

JULIE: You don’t know if they actually don’t want to or if you just feel like they don’t want to, or?

ANDREW: Right.

JULIE: Okay. It’s hard to make sense out of why you don’t see them more.

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: Yeah. You said it, being far away from them or, it feels like, you were never close to them or something, I can’t remember exactly what you said.

ANDREW: I said being away from them makes me feel like, like I never was, um, close to them. Like being close to them, like like, talking to them and hanging out with them and being around them, like on the holidays and stuff. And like now that I’m out here at the state hospital, it’s like I missed out on some of the holidays, like Easter, and Memorial Day. Spending time with them.

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It’s just, it’s hard right now. You know, cause I miss them dearly, it’s just that, I have to face the fact that things have changed, with you know, since I told em that I was gay and stuff. That things have changed and, and so it’s not the same as it used to be. You know, and I just, I just wish we can just, they can just love me for who I am and not, you know throw branches and stuff at me like, like okay he he he is not right for doing this, and, people just influencing him and telling him stuff. And that’s not true. I’ve always been like this, it’s just that I wasn’t able to come out with it when I was old- younger and tell them that I was gay. But, I don’t know. Mmmm.

JULIE: What’s changed since you told them?

ANDREW: Everything. It’s like they just look at me differently now, I haven’t seen them in four months but, I just feel that, however god does this situation with, with me being gay and my family thinking I’m weird and stuff like that. Just don’t know. Whatever happens, is what happens.

JULIE: You said they think you’re weird. Have they always thought you’re weird? Even before they thought you were gay?

ANDREW: [nods]

JULIE: Okay.

ANDREW: It’s like they really think I’m weird now. They be like, “That’s nasty. That’s not right. That’s not clean. That’s, how you gonna make it into heaven like that?” And, it’s stuff to just irritates, they just say stuff to just irritate me. I don’t know if they do it on purpose or what.

JULIE: I can see it really hurts you.

ANDREW: It does. I just want to be accepted for who I am. I’m not doing, I’m, the way I’m living as I see it is not being bad. I feel like there’s nothing wrong with how I’m living. And then they, I don’t know.

JULIE: You see it as nothing bad, but then they, they don’t-

ANDREW: They take it overboard, they talked about it. They talked about, they talk about gay people. They talk about what what, um, what they feel and what they understand about it and, I don’t know, it just, it’s a lot of petty stuff.

JULIE: A lot of petty stuff? Like what?

ANDREW: Like, I don’t know if it’s with them being uncomf-, if it’s gonna be like, they gonna be uncomfortable around me, seeing me with nails on and makeup, and you know. I don’t think they’ll be able to handle it. You know. Mmm-mmm.

JULIE: So what happens to you when you feel close to someone?

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ANDREW: When I feel close to someone, I feel, secure. I feel like, like I’m wanted in a good way, you know and, when I feel wanted in a good way it make me feel like, I could be more open with myself. You know.

JULIE: You said, have you felt closer, you said you felt close to your sister at times.

ANDREW: Yeah. I, you know I just said that being away from her made me feel like I’m not close to her. You know, I talked to her on the phone one time. Not too long ago. Maybe, the day before yesterday I called her and I talked to her. And I was talking to her and we was talking and, I felt good. But I want to see her again. You know I’ve been away for four months and, it’s just I miss being around them. No matter what they is always going to be my family. You know they always gonna be my family.

JULIE: What does that mean, that they’ll always be your family?

ANDREW: Like, like with, like no matter what they do to me, or treat, how- how- however they treat me. Or however they call me names or, no matter what they will always be my family. Like, being my family is like cousins, aunties, nieces and nephews, aunties, sisters and brothers. No matter what, that we always be family. But I just want them to treat me right because I deserve it.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

ANDREW: I believe that I have- haven’t done anything wrong. To no one.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. Yeah. And who calls you names?

ANDREW: I mean I feel like they call me names. Like when they talk about gay people.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

ANDREW: And when they say things like, “You’re weird.”

JULIE: Who says that to you?

ANDREW: My sisters, and, my sisters on my d-, mom’s side.

JULIE: Okay.

ANDREW: From my mom, her kids. And on my dad’s side of the family they, they treat me okay. It’s just that, I don’t know.

JULIE: They treat you okay, it’s just that,

ANDREW: They treat me okay it’s just that, um, I haven’t seen em in a while, so I don’t know, how they will, how how they’re reactions will. I don’t know how their reactions will be, with me

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being around them, seeing the new person that I am. You know the new obstacles and, mmm- mmm.

JULIE: So you’re a new person?

ANDREW: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: How are you different?

ANDREW: I’ll have to say I’m different because, because when I – what I – when I didn’t tell them that I was gay, it was like I was hiding – hiding my inter-me. My inner me, you know, I was hiding it. So now when I came out and said that I’m gay, I feel like a new person. You understand what I’m saying? I felt like a new person because, because I was holding back and I was saying that I wasn’t- I wasn’t gay. I didn’t want nobody to know it because I felt- I felt as if, they would look at me differently. Instead of looking at me like I’m a man, and wanting to, do manly things, and, talk about manly things, but they are- they are- I believe some of them already knew that I was gay. They just didn’t want to say anything. That’s how I feel. But then again, I could be wrong. They could not have known that I was gay. Because I believe that I was hiding- hiding it, like too good. [laughs]

JULIE: You did a really good job hiding it?

ANDREW: Yeah. [laughs] Yeah.

JULIE: So maybe they didn’t know. But maybe some of them did know and just didn’t want to say anything.

ANDREW: Right.

JULIE: So when you came out, you became a new person.

ANDREW: Right.

JULIE: Okay. You’re not sure how they’re going to react to that.

ANDREW: hmm?

JULIE: You’re not sure how they’re going to react to that.

ANDREW: Right, because they haven’t been around me, because I’ve been, I was like in the hospital and stuff. So they weren’t really having, a chance to be around me or and see how I was acting and stuff. The new, the new character that I have.

JULIE: Um, what happens when you feel angry or sad at someone? Angry at someone?

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ANDREW: Um, sometimes I cry. Sometimes I like to sing. Sometimes I like to talk it out, with someone. So that I can feel, like relief, you know, from being angry.

JULIE: Sounds like being angry is hard if you need relief from it. What does it do to you when you’re angry?

ANDREW: What- what’d you say?

JULIE: What does it do to you when you’re angry?

ANDREW: When I’m angry I just, I don’t like to be angry. I don’t because, I don’t feel, I don’t feel good, on the inside. I feel like, um, maybe I made a bad decision on being angry. [laughs] You know, cause, I just don’t like being angry, at nobody. Then it, it causes a conflict when you angry, cause like, you don’t, you can’t talk to that person, that person don’t want to be around you cause you got an attitude with them and it just cause a big conflict and, I don’t like to be angry. That’s why you don’t really see me angry all the time.

JULIE: mm-hmm.

ANDREW: you know.

JULIE: So if you were say, angry at your sister, how would you feel about her?

ANDREW: If I were to stay angry at my sister, how would I feel about her?

JULIE: Yeah, or if you were just feeling angry at her how would that

ANDREW: I would tell her that I feel angry at her and that I want to work some things out with you because I feel that um, it’s certain things that I’m going through with y’all treating me wrong. I would just tell her how I feel, try to talk it out. And try to, come – come to a conclusion about it. You know.

JULIE: Yeah. What about when someone’s angry with you? What happens?

ANDREW: I would like to find out why. And, make, try to get that person to talk to me. But even if they don’t want to talk to me, it’s like, I’ll wonder why they’re upset with me or what I did, or, how, how did I make them upset, or, what’s the problem, or something. Try to talk it out.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. How do you feel about, when someone’s angry with you, what else, how do you think they feel about you?

ANDREW: When someone’s angry with me?

JULIE: Yeah.

ANDREW: How do I?

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JULIE: How do you think they feel about you. Like if, for example, if I was angry at you, how would you think I felt about you?

ANDREW: I would think you felt that, I mean, in in in, in any situation, like, if if I felt that you was angry at me I would be like, well, why? You know. Did I do something wrong? I mean is it because I’m gay. I’d probably ask the question like that. Or wanna find out why. You know. What, did I do something, or knowing that if I did something wrong, or know what was it. What did I do? And then just try to work it out. You know.

JULIE: And, so that’s what you would try to do. And how do you think I would feel about you if I was angry?

ANDREW: You’d probably still be angry, unless you wanted to talk about it. And tell me what was wrong. Or that you didn’t want to talk about it.

JULIE: Could I feel angry at you and feel things about you too?

ANDREW: like what, he’s gay, I don’t want to be around him. I don’t like him. He get on my nerves. He just, I don’t like him at all because he’s gay. You know. Hurtful words.

JULIE: Yeah, all associated with me being angry with you.

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay. And what if, when you feel sad, what’s that like for you?

ANDREW: When I feel sad, I cry. Wanna be alone. Don’t wanna be around nobody. Unless they there to comfort me or cater to me. [laughs]

JULIE: Comfort you or cater to you. You’d prefer to be alone otherwise.

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: mm-hmm. And what happens when you feel disconnected or distant from people?

ANDREW: Well it don’t hurt me, from being disconnected or away from people. It don’t hurt me. It just, it just, makes me feel like, like it’s just a season away from people.

JULIE: You could just what?

ANDREW: I said it makes me feel like it’s just a season, it’s like a, taking a season break. [chuckles]

JULIE: You’re taking a season away from people, a break.

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ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. And after that?

ANDREW: What you mean?

JULIE: Well after your season or your break is over, then what?

ANDREW: I would like to return.

JULIE: Okay, does that- go ahead.

ANDREW: And be around them because, it’s like, I don’t know. It’s like being away from my family has really helped me to find my inner me. It’s been hard because I couldn’t find myself. I’ve been wanting to do some things, and get some things done, like, with just, like gettin’ my nails did and conversate with people. Find out different things about being gay and stuff and. It’s like everybody’s opinion about it is different. But, I wanted to ask you, how do you feel about it?

JULIE: How do I feel about?

ANDREW: Gay people.

JULIE: I like them, exactly the same as I like straight people. I think they’re people like anyone else and I think that they have a right to be happy just like anyone else. So I think they have the right to get married and have kids. I think there should be laws to protect them from being discriminated against. I’m really glad that Obama came out and said that he supports gay marriage. [pause] What’s it like to hear me say that?

ANDREW: [laughs] It’s, it’s, it’s encouraging. [laughs] Because a lot of people, just a lot of people in general, they, they don’t like gay people you know. And sometimes, it can be hurtful, but it’s just as long as they don’t try to hurt them. I believe that’s a good thing. You know, cause, I don’t know. Being around, being around all different categories of people, is amazing. I love white people, black people, Caucasian, and mixed, and Puerto Rican, and Mexican, and Japanese, Chinese. [laughs] I can go on forever. But I like em all. I’m not prejudiced or anything. Oops! [laughs]

JULIE: You could put your bag down if you’ll be more comfortable.

ANDREW: Oh, okay.

JULIE: It looks like it’s heavy.

ANDREW: [laughs]

JULIE: So, you were saying though, when you feel distant from people, it’s hard.

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ANDREW: Yeah when I feel distant from people it’s hard because, like I said, I miss my family.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

ANDREW: I miss em, I miss being around em, laughing and joking around and playing. I miss it all.

JULIE: Yeah.

ANDREW: I have a good family, just sometimes they treat me as – as if I’m not wanted. You know like, if, I just, if they just don’t wanna be around me. They want me to leave or go home. You know. They’ll just try to put something together and say, “Okay, we don’t want you around.” Or some- that’s how it used to be. I don’t know how it is now.

JULIE: How it used to be was, they would-

ANDREW: Try to push me away from them.

JULIE: How did they do that?

ANDREW: Like, let’s say if I was around them they’d try to get a ride home real quick, cause they didn’t want me to be around. They thought I was weird and they didn’t want me to embarrass them. Just some stuff like that to hurt me. You know, that made me wonder because I’m the only person in the family that takes mental ill- medication. And I’m the only one in the family that takes it.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

ANDREW: Um, brothers and sisters they don’t have to take nothing. Cousins, or, I’m the only one that been through the whole episodes, like, messing up a room, like throwing everything on the floor, TV and everything, throwing stuff. I’ve been through it all.

JULIE: Yeah.

ANDREW: And, the only reason I’m on medication is because, when my mom passed away it was hard for me to function. So I needed medication to function. Because it it, just, it was so dramatic. It was a dramatic episode. I thought my mother was still living but she was dead. It hurted. It did. I really (?threw) me up on the inside. And I was never the same after that.

JULIE: After your mom died.

ANDREW: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Yeah.

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ANDREW: She died when I was twelve and it was hurtful. Because I remember saying a prayer to god. I was like, if it’s meant for my mom to live, let her live. If it’s meant for her die, let her die. I said that prayer. And she died. It was meant for her to die. [pause] I remember I was telling you that I seen my mother in the moon.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. Yeah.

ANDREW: Remember?

JULIE: Seeing her in the moon. And your eyes just stayed open.

ANDREW: Yeah, they wouldn’t close.

JULIE: Yeah.

ANDREW: And I remember my, um, my mama when she was in the hospital, her eyes stayed open they wouldn’t close. But she was sick though. My dad was like, “She’s looking at you. She just out of it right now. But she’s looking at you.” She seen, I believe she seen me. She just wasn’t herself. Her mind was gone.

JULIE: Yeah. Yeah, you’ve talked about a lot of painful and difficult things that have happened to you. One thing you haven’t talked about yet is, sexual things.

ANDREW: [laughs] Sexual things.

JULIE: Yeah.

ANDREW: Um, let me see. Well I was with this boy one time, and well let me tell you about this, the first time. I was talking on the phone, it was called this, um, this um, phone- phone line, where you call up. It’s like a gay hotline. And I was just talking to this dude on the hotline. He was telling me he was gonna come out here and see me. And he gonna come pick me up, we gonna go out to eat. We gonna go stay at a hotel and, you know, we just talking, just talking for about 2 hours. Then the next thing you know, I call him the next day and he do not answer his phone. It’s like, I’m a- it’s like I was so into him. It made me feel like well, what is I supposed to do now? But I done put all my, almost all my love into this man, and never seen him. Just heard from him. And it made me feel like, I don’t know. It just made me feel uncomfortable, like I wasn’t supposed to have done that. On the hotline. So I stopped-

JULIE: How old were you?

ANDREW: calling. I was about, I was 18, this was last year.

JULIE: You put all your love into him.

ANDREW: Yeah, you know it was hard because, it’s like, I’m I’m quick to say I love somebody. And it it’s because, I do have love for everyone. God said, “Love. Love people.” And I I I love

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everyone. With the love of the lord. God loves everyone so I love everyone too. It’s just that sometimes, people can act phony. You know what I’m saying?

JULIE: How so?

ANDREW: Like um, like, being around people. Like, let’s say, I’m together with my family and there friends come around. Like my cousin and friends come around and, they start to act phony, like “Andrew you gotta leave.” You know what I’m saying? “You gotta go.”

JULIE: They send you away?

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: They act differently when-

ANDREW: They’re around other people.

JULIE: What’s that like for you when they act differently around other people?

ANDREW: It makes me upset because I feel that they shouldn’t act that way because we are family and family should stick together.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. Yeah. So-

ANDREW: But one other sexual thing that happened was, [sighs] I really don’t want to talk about it.

JULIE: Well we don’t have to talk about it in depth. Did something happen to you?

ANDREW: I was raped.

JULIE: I’m sorry.

ANDREW: When I was younger.

JULIE: How old were you?

ANDREW: I was, eleven.

JULIE: Did it, how many times did it happen?

ANDREW: Just once.

JULIE: Okay. And who was it?

ANDREW: Some um, it was a teenager.

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JULIE: Uh-huh.

ANDREW: Um, I don’t know, I don’t, uh, I think his name was Alex. He um, people used to call me gay when I was little. And I guess he heard it enough to make him think that I was gay for real. And so, I was gay though. But it wasn’t right for him to do what he did.

JULIE: No.

ANDREW: He he um, he called me back to the bathroom. I was thinking he was going to give me some money and something but that wasn’t true. He called me back there to the bathroom when I was at a boys and girls club. So he he did like this [motions to come here] and I went and followed him to the bathroom. He grabbed my face like this and started kissing me and tongue kissing me. And then he pulled down his pants and took my hand and put it on his private part and he had me to play with it and, he told me to suck it. And then he sucked mine. I don’t, I don’t want to talk about it no more.

JULIE: That’s fine, I’m sorry. I’m really sorry it happened. Was that the- did anything happen before then, when you were younger?

ANDREW: I don’t know if I was, I don’t know if my cousin um, molested me when I was just a little boy. I don’t know if that happened to cause me to be, I don’t know I just – I been gay since I was a little boy.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. Yeah. I don’t think that being sexually abused has anything to do with sexual orientation.

ANDREW: Right, right.

JULIE: So it sounds like your cousin may have molested you when you were little?

ANDREW: Probably so. I don’t know. I don’t know what happened to me. Cuase I don’t know, just for me to be gay when I was little. I believe that something had to happen. Know what I’m saying?

JULIE: Feels like something made you gay when you were little? Is that what you’re saying? I’m not sure I’m following.

ANDREW: That’s not what I’m trying to say. I’m just trying to say that I believe I’m meant to be gay. That’s what I wanted to say.

JULIE: Okay, you’re meant to be gay.

ANDREW: For some reason, I don’t know.

JULIE: Yeah.

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ANDREW: To help others or whatever.

JULIE: There’s a purpose.

ANDREW: Right.

JULIE: And that’s totally unrelated to being sexually abused.

ANDREW: Mm-hmmm. Cause I was already gay when it happened.

JULIE: So, did your cousin?

ANDREW: I never got raped or nothing by my cousin or nothing.

JULIE: Ok.

ANDREW: Ain’t nothing like that ever happened.

JULIE: But something happened?

ANDREW: Like what?

JULIE: I don’t know you, put it out there sort of that something might’ve happened with him.

ANDREW: My cousin?

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

ANDREW: Well me and my cousin had sex.

JULIE: Okay. How old were you when that happened?

ANDREW: I was about, 15.

JULIE: Okay, mm-hmmm. And how old was your cousin?

ANDREW: Fifteen.

JULIE: Okay. So you were the same age.

ANDREW: I really don’t like talking about this type of stuff.

JULIE: Okay.

ANDREW: [laughs] (?) brings back memories. I don’t want to start crying.

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JULIE: Yeah. I was just trying to understand if something else happened to you when you were younger. You’re nodding, so something did?

ANDREW: Hmm?

JULIE: I was wondering if something happened to you when you were younger than 11.

ANDREW: That was it.

JULIE: Okay. Nothing happened to you when you were younger?

ANDREW: Not that I remember?

JULIE: Is it possible that something happened that you don’t remember?

ANDREW: Oh, I know what it was. When I was younger, this is when my mom was living. My cousin Carl, um, he came to stay with us one night. And, that’s when I was, it was hard for me to sleep at night and stuff. Um, he was laying in my bed. We had to sleep in the same bed because he didn’t want to sleep on the floor. So, he he was touching me and I was touching him and, it was weird. I didn’t feel comfortable so I got up and went and laid in my mom’s bed. And that was it.

JULIE: How old were you when that happened?

ANDREW: I was ten. About ten.

JULIE: Okay. Mm-hmmm. It was before your mom died.

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: You said you were having trouble sleeping?

ANDREW: I was having trouble sleeping. And um, I couldn’t sleep so, I went and um, got in my mom’s bed. And so that’s when my cousin came in and he was like, “Andrew, can you come back in the room with me?” I was like, “No.” Told him no. And my mom just, that’s when my mom came in the room with me and him and she, she sat in the rocking chair and um, I went to sleep while she was next to me.

JULIE: And he was still there?

ANDREW: [nods]

JULIE: Okay. Did he go to sleep too then?

ANDREW: Mm-hmmm.

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JULIE: Okay. How old was he.

ANDREW: I think he was about, about um, I think he was a teenager.

JULIE: Oh, okay. So he was older than you.

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: Yeah.

ANDREW: Can we stop right here?

JULIE: Sure.

Third Interview with Andrew

JULIE: So I guess the first question I was going to ask is, um, what was it like when you came out to your family?

ANDREW: When I told them that I was-?

JULIE: Yeah.

ANDREW: Well, it was kinda’ hard. Then again it wasn’t because, I knew what I was facing. I knew that, that some of them wasn’t going to like it- especially my sisters on my mom’s side. I knew they wasn’t going to like the fact that I was. But I just had to keep it real with them. I just had to tell them how I felt. And just them the whole- the whole point.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. Okay. And your dad?

ANDREW: My dad, he said he kinda knew it. That’s what he told me when I told him. And, now he said he’s accepting of it, so that kinda make me feel comfortable.

JULIE: Okay.

ANDREW: So when it’s time for me to go back to xxx, you know I will feel some time type of peace with my family, you know, knowing that someone still loves me. You know what I’m saying?

JULIE: Who still loves you?

ANDREW: My family. Yeah.

JULIE: You were worried they wouldn’t?

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ANDREW: Not so much worried about it that they loved me, but if they was- will accept me. You know?

JULIE: Okay. Um, I was wondering about when you were younger. Um, did people call you gay when you were at school, when you were little?

ANDREW: Umm, yeah.

JULIE: Okay, what was that like for you?

ANDREW: I really didn’t pay no mind to it. You know I just kept doing what I was doing and, really didn’t pay no attention to it. It- it, I can say it hurted a little bit, but me knowing that I was for real, I just didn’t want nobody to know. Then, you know, being so little, it’s like, I really wasn’t thinking about all the facts and stuff like, what if my momma know I’m gay, or what if- what if they really do think I’m gay, and, you know, what if my teacher and them think I’m gay, and, you know I was just thinking about stuff like that. But I really didn’t, I wasn’t really serious about it, you know.

JULIE: You weren’t serious about?

ANDREW: About, the whole gay life thing. It really didn’t get serious until I turned, like, 16 or 17.

JULIE: What do mean by- that’s when it got serious?

ANDREW: That’s when I started doing stuff.

JULIE: Okay.

ANDREW: Like, having sex with men.

JULIE: Oh okay. Mm-hmm. So up until then it wasn’t real to you?

ANDREW: Right, it was just I knew I liked the boys. That’s what I was trying to say. [laughs]

JULIE: Oh okay. [pause]

ANDREW: I’m a doin' my hair tonight.

JULIE: Oh yeah?

ANDREW: I’m going to have it long like yours.

JULIE: Okay, you’re getting extensions?

ANDREW: Weave.

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JULIE: Oh weave.

ANDREW: You know what weave is, don’t you?

JULIE: No.

ANDREW: [laughs]

JULIE: I’ve heard of it, but I don’t know how it works.

ANDREW: It’s tracks, it’s like a track and they got hair to it. It’s like a piece of track of hair and you put glue on a piece of the track and you put it in your head. And you got to layer it until you come up here. You got to build those circles.

JULIE: Okay. So you’ll have long hair? Is it going to be free or braided?

ANDREW: Like yours.

JULIE: Cool. Tonight?

ANDREW: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Okay, well I’ll get to see it then next week. Um, that’s exciting.

ANDREW: [laughs] Um, I’m thinking about black and brown.

JULIE: Okay. Nice. Um, let’s see. I was wondering, what were your sisters like when you were growing up?

ANDREW: When I was growing up, my sisters, they were like special to me. All of ‘em. It was just, I want to say- yeah, all of ‘em was. It was different when I was younger cause, me and my sisters, we, I think we kind of bonded more when we was younger. Then again, I want to say, that it was like, I was always pushed away. You know, when I went to spend time with them and hang out with them and their girlfriends, I couldn’t do it. They always- they just always say, “Go hang out with some boys. Go find some boys you can hang out with.” I wasn’t comfortable hanging around boys, cause, I- but now I am because I- things have changed now. You know, I got older. Here it is I’m going to be 20 this coming August and I’m growing up, so I see things differently. You know what I’m saying? It’s not the same old Andrew I used to be. You know and I just want to put God in there, because God, he helps me change. You know, I’m- like change my ways and, different- different things like, focusing on what I need to focus on and stay- stay true to myself.

JULIE: So how have you changed? You said you’re a different person.

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ANDREW: Because when I was younger, it was some things I was doing, like I used to steal my sister’s money to go get high. To go smoke drugs.

JULIE: Yeah.

ANDREW: You know, that was something I didn’t want to do, but I was so addictive- so addicted to um, drugs cause of losing my mother at a young age. And that’s all I wanted to do because it made me happy.

JULIE: Drugs did.

ANDREW: Smoking weed made me happy. And, if I didn’t have it, I wasn’t happy. I’d just feel sad. So, I used to steal her money and, go buy me dime bags, or twenty piece, or a five piece and, go smoke.

JULIE: Okay. And so, you’re different now because-

ANDREW: I- I don’t do those things no more. You know, and I’m different. [pauses and listens to what’s going on outside the office]

JULIE: Is there something going on out there?

ANDREW: [laughs] I’m sorry.

JULIE: That’s okay.

ANDREW: Thought I heard my name.

JULIE: Oh, okay.

ANDREW: I’m different because, I’m- I’m just different, I’m not the s- I know I’m not the same person I used to be because, like I say, I believe God has changed me in a way that- that I know that he has. In a way that, like, that I see myself differently because, the same person I used to be when I was – when I was younger. I’m not that same person no more, because I was too focused on myself and not- not- I was being selfish and not trying to focus on anybody else but myself. And now I’m focused on other people too as well as myself. You know what I’m saying?

JULIE: You used to not do that and now you do.

ANDREW: Right.

JULIE: Mm-hmm. That makes sense to me. Um, let’s see, what happened to you when you would- well, I was going to ask about hallucinating, but, I guess could you walk me through a timeline? So sort of walk me through your life story? So you were born and you lived with your mom and dad-

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ANDREW: Okay.

JULIE: and your sisters and then-

ANDREW: I was born, I stayed with my mother and father, um. Actually I grew up with saved parents. It was just me, my two sisters, my dad and my mom. I was raised by them since I was a little boy. And my sisters and, um, um, yeah my mom and dad was Christians and they taught us how to be Christians too. We learned from them how to live a saved life and stuff like that. But we still, after my mom, well after they taught us how to be Christians and stuff, we still chose to live how we wanted- how we wanted to live. You know even though we knew the whole thing about what they taught us and stuff. What they taught us, you know, how they taught us to live. You know things we learned from them. You know, them telling us, you know, what’s right and what’s wrong. And it’s like we learned so much from them, you know and it’s a good thing to have saved parents you know, because it’s like, you can have feedback, you know, know what’s wrong and what’s right in times in your life. But yeah, as as, growing up, it was just me and my two sisters and my dad and my mom. My mom got sick around the age of 35, um,

JULIE: And you were nine, right?

ANDREW: I was 12.

JULIE: Oh 12. I’m sorry!

ANDREW: I was 12 when she passed away.

JULIE: Yeah.

ANDREW: Um, she got sick. She was having tumors and stuff and kidney stones, and this type of stuff was going on. Her esophagus and food wouldn’t stay down. And just, all- all types of stuff was going on with her. I didn’t understand it, like “Why God, why you doing this to this lady like this?” And she didn’t do anything wrong to no one at all. She was an evangelist. I’m like, “God, why you doing this to my mother?” And I got- I got tired, so I was like, “God if it’s for- if it’s for my mother to live, let her live. It’s for her to die, let her die.”

JULIE: Yeah.

ANDREW: That’s what I told God. And God took her cause it was for her to die. You know, I didn’t understand why, but God took her when I was twelve. And I believe that God did that because he knew that I was going to have to live was going to have to be different from everybody else’s in the family. You know what I’m trying to say?

JULIE: How was it supposed to be different?

ANDREW: Because, I’m the only one in the family that takes, mental ill pills. I’m the only one that- that had episodes. I’m the only one that, really been through stuff that I- that I couldn’t even compare to my cousins’, things in their lives what they been through.

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JULIE: Like what?

ANDREW: Like, like one day, it’s just- it was a mind thing. Like you never lost your mind before have you?

JULIE: mm mm.

ANDREW: Where your mind was completely gone and you was someone else. That ever happen to you?

JULIE: No.

ANDREW: It happened to me about three times. Or even more than that. I remember when I was younger and my mother, she was still living, and my dad was sitting in the living room, and um, my dad’s friend was over there at the house. And I was- I was just out of it. They didn’t even know! They just thought, I don’t know what they was thinking, but I was out of it. I wasn’t myself. My mind was gone. And I’m just sitting around and just wondering like- what is going on? I’m scared and stuff and, but I’m so young, I couldn’t even- couldn’t even what was wrong with myself on my own. It’s just- it was scary for me. You know, I didn’t know what to do.

JULIE: Yeah.

ANDREW: I didn’t know what to tell my mom. Like my mind is gone.

JULIE: How old were you?

ANDREW: I was at least about eleven or ten. And it was scary. It was.

JULIE: Was that before your mom got sick?

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay.

ANDREW: She got sick and end up dying. Then my dad um, was really, he was upset and stuff.

JULIE: How did he react after she died?

ANDREW: He- he really was, he went into a stage of depression. He was saying he was tired of being alone, he needed someone in his life. He was saying that um, he met, you know he want- he wanted to be with somebody. So, he met my mother’s friend. Well they already knew each other, but they started dating, you know whatever. And he told her that he wanted to um, be with her. God said it’s for him to be with her. And so she was saying that she didn’t want to be with him. So he, my dad was buying her stuff, and sometimes they would go out to the movies, and he’d spend the night at her house and, my sister’d be like, “Why is he spending the night at her

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house and they’re not even married?” And, but, in the midst of it all, we was all wondering why he had to, choose my mother’s best friend, you know why he couldn’t marry someone else? But that’s what my sisters was thinking. I- I just didn’t see nothing of it. I just thought it was ok. You know what I’m saying? Because I didn’t want my dad to marry someone else that wasn’t going to treat him right or do him right, I mean, or do him wrong. You know what I’m saying?

JULIE: You knew her and you trusted her?

ANDREW: Yeah I knew her and I trusted her.

JULIE: And, when did they start dating?

ANDREW: They dated like a year after my mom passed away.

JULIE: Oh, okay. And so, after your mom passed away your dad was depressed and you were upset.

ANDREW: I was upset at the same time, and I end up having a stroke a year later. Cause I thought my mother was still living. I- I- never thought she was gone for real. I just thought she went away and she was coming back one day. You know what I’m saying?

JULIE: You didn’t believe she was dead.

ANDREW: Right.

JULIE: And, who was there to support you? Or who comforted you after your mom died?

ANDREW: [sigh] No one. Didn’t have no one.

JULIE: Where was your dad?

ANDREW: He was there but he didn’t do anything for me.

JULIE: Yeah.

ANDREW: It was hard. And knowing the simple fact that he was getting ready to get married again, and he was not going to be there in my life no more.

JULIE: That was when- wait, he decided that?

ANDREW: That he was going to get married.

JULIE: Yeah, but I thought he was going to wait until you were 18.

ANDREW: He did wait until I was 18. He waited until I was 18. I’m saying he decided that he was going to get married-

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JULIE: Okay.

ANDREW: and he was telling me that he’s going to wait till I turn 18 to get married. And so he end up getting married after I turned 18, so that’s when he was like, “I taught you all responsibility. Y’all already know what’s right and what’s wrong. Me and your mother taught y’all this, so y’all should know what’s wrong and what’s right. And what y’all need to do in this society.” So he told us that and he was like, “I’m leaving y’all this house. It’s up to y’all to what y’all want to do.” But he was saying that um, that I was going to help out with the money, cause I get a check every once a month. And, but my sisters then ended up getting into it with the next door neighbors and so we- they got- we got kicked out of the house. And, we had to, me and my sister had to move in with my auntie and my other sister had to move in with her boyfriend. So, that’s when um, my sister end up getting pregnant about months and months later, had a baby and. We end up having to split up, me and my sister and my cousin. We was staying at my auntie’s house but my auntie wasn’t staying there, she was staying at a daycare. So, me and my sister had to split up.

JULIE: How come?

ANDREW: Because my auntie said it was too much stuff going on at her house when she was not there with us, we was throwing parties and stuff and, drug dealers was coming over there. And she said she was having dreams and stuff about drug dealers coming over there and, it was just getting too out of control. So she told everybody that you gotta go here, you gotta go there. You gotta move out. So we all split up. Everybody that was in the house split up.

JULIE: Where did you go?

ANDREW: I went to go stay with my auntie.

JULIE: Okay.

ANDREW: My other auntie. And her son, he was 26. And um, his- his grandmother stayed there too. She’s 70- 75. And my auntie, she’s 40- 42. And you know, I was 19.

JULIE: And you stayed there for how long?

ANDREW: I stayed there for six months.

JULIE: And then what happened?

ANDREW: And then, um, after six months was over with, um, they said, they already told me that I had a limited time to be there. That’s what my um, auntie’s son told me. Cause it’s her house. She told me that I had a limited time to be there, so she said, “when six months up, you gotta leave.”

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

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ANDREW: So had to find somewhere to go. So, I had to go to a homeless shelter for one night. And then this place called Northview provided me with a home to stay. So I moved into this group home right next to Northview, the facility of Northview. I moved in there and um, I was there for 10 months. After that um, everything was going well and everything, I got- I kinda’ got tired of my roommate and, it just, I don’t know. It’s weird, sometimes weird things happen that I can’t explain.

JULIE: Like what?

ANDREW: Like I lost my mind again. Um, it’s like my mind comes and goes. Like I don’t know if it, I don’t know why it happens. I don’t know why it happens.

JULIE: So that time what was going on right when your mind went?

ANDREW: It’s like, things on TV, things on TV would scare me. It’s like- like the TV would be talking to me. And it’s like, people watching me and people following me. Like I’m being stalked by people. And it’s like, I don’t know.

JULIE: And your mind is gone?

ANDREW: And it’s gone. I’m gonna tell you how it was gone. It’s gone because I know I’m not Andrew no more. I know it feel like someone else came over me. And I’m not there anymore. It’s like- boom! And I just disappear, and then I come back. I just pop back in body like an hour later or something. That’s how it is-

JULIE: Yeah.

ANDREW: and I, I don’t know.

JULIE: And so during that hour what happens, do you know?

ANDREW: It’s like, my mind just everywhere, just everything that’s going on. Just like, um, how can I explain it? It’s like um, I’m seeing things. Like, like, like I’m walking down the street or something and it’s like people saying things and I hear them talking and it’s like it’s directed towards me. And everything is about me and everything is connected to me. Everything is dedicated to me. [laughs] And it’s like I don’t understand. It’s like ev- everything is talking about me. And I’m scared and fearful. That’s some- like I’m gonna die and like something bad is gonna happen. I’m just scared, looking back and looking everywhere and didn’t know what to do because didn’t nobody know that my mind was gone. Only me. I knew.

JULIE: Everyone else didn’t know.

ANDREW: They didn’t know. They just, I don’t know what they was thinking. But they didn’t- they didn’t say nothing like they knew what was wrong with me.

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JULIE: Do you feel anything, do you have any sense before you’re about to lose your mind? What does it feel like?

ANDREW: Feel like I’m lost. Like I’m lost. Like I’m in another state. And I’m lost and no one’s there and I have to find my way around.

JULIE: All alone?

ANDREW: All alone.

JULIE: And then you lose your mind?

ANDREW: [nods]

JULIE: okay. Um, so I guess, I was wondering if, and so after, I’ll go back to fill in a little bit, so you were living with your aunt- your auntie for six months. How did you end up in the Northview group home?

ANDREW: Because I was already connected to their system because I was going there for for 3 years I was going there to there ACT program.

JULIE: Okay.

ANDREW: They had a ACT program and I was going there for three years. Because I couldn’t go back to regular school because of my um, because of my symptoms. I had had a stroke. I had tried to get back into regular school and I couldn’t because they said they needed somebody to watch me and to you know be around me. And the right people I need to be around was the Northview people because they was like psych- psych- you know, psych

JULIE: Psychologists and psychiatrists?

ANDREW: Yeah. People like that. And doctors and stuff that can watch me. Like like, people that was over medication. It was medication there, like if I was to go into like some kind of something and they’d be able to give me medicine and rush to the hospital right down the street.

JULIE: Okay.

ANDREW: You know, that’s how it was, so I was there for three years. You know and

JULIE: In Northview?

ANDREW: Yeah in Northview.

JULIE: At the group home?

ANDREW: No.

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JULIE: Oh no, just going there for three years.

ANDREW: Yeah just going there to the ACT program. It’s like for school. It was like school. I was going there for education.

JULIE: Okay and you started going there when you were how old?

ANDREW: I think 15.

JULIE: Fifteen to 18 you were going there for school?

ANDREW: yeah.

JULIE: Okay. Um, and then, so you lived in the group home, so after 10 months, and then what happened?

ANDREW: I ended up in Presbyterian Hospital because I ranned away from uh the group home.

JULIE: How come?

ANDREW: I ranned away because I got tired of living there. I was scared. That’s when I had lost my mind. I was scared and, I didn’t know what to do. I came, because I was gone. I had a nice day that morning, I got up and went down to my sister’s shop and hanged out with them. And I was just having a good day and whatever. And then um, I get back to the group home. And I walk upstairs to my apartment. I’m like, it’s too cold. I can’t I can’t sleep in here, it’s too cold. I’m telling my roommate it’s too cold. He was like, do you know how- it’s too hot outside. He was telling me it was too hot outside. I was like, but it’s too cold in here. I was like, you know what, I’m tired of this. So I, I didn’t feel right. I couldn’t sleep. You know and so, I just, it’s like, I don’t know, I just packed all my stuff and I put on, I put on a jack- first I put on a hoody jacket and I put another jacket over it. And then put on- you know what? It was cold outside and he had the air conditioning on. That’s what happened. So I put- I put a jacket on and I put another coat on. Then I put another coat over that one. And I put on two pairs of pants. [laughs] And I had, I left. I had- had the bags in my hands and I was just- I was just- I was just gone. I was walking, I walked all the way to my granny’s house and when I got there I just got to crying and crying and crying and crying and crying. Just was crying real hard and it felt like the TV was talking about me. And it felt- it was just strange.

JULIE: What were you crying about?

ANDREW: I was crying because I was saying I missed my daddy. I wish everything was normal. I wish, I wish my momma woulda never left. I wish my sister was here with me. I wish that Latisha, Sonny was here with me.

JULIE: You wish that who?

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ANDREW: Latisha and Sonny, that’s my brother and sister. I was wishing they was there with me at the moment. And I was just- I was just feeling real sad. I just felt all alone. Cause when I was at the group home for 10 months, didn’t nobody come and see me. Didn’t nobody come and see me. My dad and my stepmom came to see me, probably- probably every three months or something like that. But, there wasn’t nobody coming to see me.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

ANDREW: And I felt all alone.

JULIE: Yeah. And then what happened after that?

ANDREW: My dad came. I called, I kept calling my dad, he wouldn’t answer the- first I called my sister. I was like, “Celeste, Daddy won’t answer his phone.” And she was like, she was like, “Call him again.” She was like, “Call him again and see where he at cause I just got off the phone with him.” So I called him again. He answered. And I’m like, “Dad” I was like, I was like, “I’m scared. I’m hearing voices. I’m not myself.” He was like, “Andrew.” He was like, “I’m on my way. Stay there.” So he came and he- he pulled up. He walked in the door and um, um after that he came through the door. I’m like- no that’s not what happened. I was like, I was like- I called him. I was like, “Dad.” I was like, “Can I come and stay with you and Diane? Can I come and stay with y’all?” He was like, um, he was like, “No you can’t come stay with me.” I was like, “Dad what is your problem?” I got loud with him, I was like, “I don’t want to stay there no more.” And w- this and that. And I hung up on him. So he calls back. My brother Simon walks in and he said, he was like, “Daddy want to speak to you.” So I, I got the phone, and he was like, he was like, “Andrew.” He was like, “What is wrong with you?” And he was just talking and so I was like. I was like, I was like, “Fuck you.” [laughs] And hung up the phone.

JULIE: You were mad?

ANDREW: Yeah. And the I called, I called their house phone. I called their house phone. Next thing you know- how did they make it from Ridgeway all the way to um, all the way to where I was at in like 20 minutes?

JULIE: At your grandma’s.

ANDREW: At my granny’s house.

JULIE: Your granny’s house.

ANDREW: I was wondering how did they make it there that fast. Cause they pulled up and whatever. So my daddy came in. He was like, “Come on Andrew, let’s go.” He’s like, “Let’s go. I’m taking you back to the group home.” I was like, “I’m not going back to that group home.” I was like, “I ran away for a reason cause I don’t wanna be there.” I was like, “As you can see, I’m out of my mind and I’m not myself. Something is wrong with me and I don’t wanna be there no more. I wanna move in with you.” And so he not listening to me. He- he tried to grab me. I was like, “Don’t put your hands on me.” I was like, “Don’t put your”- I was like, “You know what?”

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And I ran into the kitchen. And I grabbed a knife. And he ranned out- he running outside. And I’m running behind him with the knife. And everybody like- “Andr-“. My granny and them, they’re like, “Andrew, don’t do it! Don’t do it! Put the knife down.” So my granny grabbed the knife. And so I hear her open up a pack of cigarettes- I need you to calm down and I started smoking a cigarette. I was just outside on the phone. I’m like this- I called the police, I’m like, “This man is over at my” – I was like, “this man is over here. He’s trying to attack me.” Or whatever. Really I was trying to attack him.

JULIE: You were trying to attack your dad.

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: Were you confused about who was trying to attack whom?

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: You weren’t sure?

ANDREW: I wasn’t sure.

JULIE: So you called the police.

ANDREW: I called the police. [laughs]

JULIE: Why were you trying to attack your dad?

ANDREW: Because I felt like he was trying to attack me.

JULIE: You were angry at him.

ANDREW: I was very angry. Very. I was saying, “Dad, you killed my momma.” I was like, “Dad, you killed my momma.” I was like, “I knew you killed my momma.” That’s why he wouldn’t let us up to the hospital to see my momma cause you killed her. You let her. I was like, “I knew that you was the one who killed her. Cause you didn’t let us up there to see her. And you was smug- smug- smugglin her.” What’s that word?

JULIE: Smothering?

ANDREW: Smothering her. Yeah, smothering her. And she couldn’t breath and you let sister Charlotte and brother Wes up there to see her and we couldn’t see her because you lettin’ you lettin’ them see her while she died- I was just out of it. You know what I’m saying, I just was saying stuff that wasn’t even true. That’s how I wasn’t myself. That’s why I was telling you that I wasn’t myself. I was somebody else. And I was so scared because I didn’t know who I was and I was just every- every- every thought that came to my head I was just exposing and let it come out. You know what I’m saying?

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JULIE: You were just saying it-

ANDREW: Just saying-

JULIE: every thought that came in your head

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay. You didn’t who you were?

ANDREW: I didn’t know who I was.

JULIE: But you remember this.

ANDREW: I remember this though.

JULIE: When you remember it, is it like it happened to you or like it happened to someone else?

ANDREW: It happened to someone else.

JULIE: Okay. So did the police come?

ANDREW: The police came. And told me to sit down. I sat down on the curb, I’m still smoking a cigarette and whatever. They told me to show them my ID. I showed ‘em my ID. And I’m just sitting there on the corner, on like the curb of the street. I was like um, I was like, “He killed my mother y’all. He killed my mother. And that son of a B that’s in the car, she- she was in it too.” His wife was, my dad’s wife was sitting in the car. And I was like, “And her two daughters in the back seat. I know they back there.” And I was just, I was just cutting up. Just, saying stuff that I didn’t need to say. So they, they’re like, “We’re going to give you some help. We going to give you some help, sir. We going to take you to the hospital. You’re not going to be there for long. And you’ll leave the same night.” They lied to me. I was there for, they took me up to the pysch unit. You know the psych unit?

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

ANDREW: They took me back to the psych unit. I was on the psych ward for about, about two weeks I was on the psych unit. And so, I’m in, I’m in um, I’m in the psych unit and they took me up to the psych unit and whatever. And I was there. And, that’s it.

JULIE: And then after that, after you got released, where did you go?

ANDREW: After I got released, I went back to the group home. I didn’t want to go back. I end up smoking some weed. Somebody laced the weed that I smoked. And I lost, and I got to hearing voices and seeing things. And, I was hallucinating. And, someone told me just pack my stuff and go back to the hospital.

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JULIE: Something told you that?

ANDREW: Yeah, to pack my stuff and go back to the hospital.

JULIE: Was it a voice that told you that or?

ANDREW: Yep. And I packed all my stuff and I went back to the hospital. And I was like, “I’m hearing voices. I’m not myself. I smoked some marijuana. I know we had classes in here talking about not smoking marijuana and drinking and stuff, taking this medication, plus this new medication that I’m taking, and, I don’t know.” Then, um, that’s what I was telling them. And so when I told ‘em that they was like, “Okay we gonna admiss- administrate you back in,” or something like that.

JULIE: Admit you back in?

ANDREW: Admit you back in. So I was there for three months.

JULIE: Oh wow.

ANDREW: And after three months, um, they sent me out here.

JULIE: Oh okay. And so when you came back in to yourself, you know you’d lose your mind and when you’d come back, how long would it take to come back?

ANDREW: I said an hour to come back, but then again, it feels longer because it’s like I start fading- the person that I- the person that didn’t know who I was start fading away.

JULIE: The person who isn’t you starts fading away.

ANDREW: Yeah, and I start coming back slowly. I start to, like, snap back into it. And it’s scary because I, it’s feels strange.

JULIE: What does it feel like?

ANDREW: It feels like, like the devil was in me. Like I was being possessed or being, something – like a spell or something was on me or something. I don’t know. I can’t really say.

JULIE: Yeah. Um, and so, going back to, when you were 12 and so after your mom died, that’s when you had trouble functioning on your own.

ANDREW: Right. That’s when I had to take medication, after she passed away. When she was living I didn’t have to take no type of medicine.

JULIE: Okay. And then, um, I remember you’d told me about, so the way you ended up on medicine was you had that day where you were on the bus and you were crying and then- right? Is that how you ended up on medication?

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ANDREW: Huh?

JULIE: You had that day where you got on the bus and you were crying and then you thought the TV was talking to you.

ANDREW: Oh, yeah, that’s not the day I ended up taking medicine.

JULIE: Oh okay.

ANDREW: That’s what you said?

JULIE: Yeah, I was trying to figure out- did we talk about how you ended up first getting put on medicine?

ANDREW: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Okay, how did that happen?

ANDREW: Um, I don’t really remember the first time I started taking medication. But I just remember, it was after my mother- when she passed away. That’s when I had to take medication.

JULIE: Oh okay. Um, and the first time you were hospitalized, well so, major things that happened. After your mom passed away, you had trouble functioning, but you were still going to school?

ANDREW: After she passed away I was still going to school. And then um, I got sick. I was going to school from the fourth grade up till the seventh grade. And, when I got to the eighth grade I went to an alternative school. And when I got to the alternative school, um, in the eighth grade I had a stroke. Not in school, but when I was home. I went into the stroke. Um,

JULIE: Was that related to smoking?

ANDREW: Related to smoking?

JULIE: Related to smoking marijuana.

ANDREW: It was something like that. I believe so.

JULIE: Yeah that it was laced, and then you had the stroke.

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: When did you start smoking marijuana?

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ANDREW: Um, I wanna say, I tried it when my mom was in the hospital. I tried it one time when she was in the hospital. Before she passed away.

JULIE: And how was that?

ANDREW: How was it?

JULIE: Yeah.

ANDREW: [laughs] I didn’t- I – it was strange because I didn’t feel right.

JULIE: Oh okay. You tried it and you didn’t feel right.

ANDREW: Yeah. Then like, when she passed- then when she actually passed away I started doing it for real. I started- kept doing it and doing it. I got addicted to it and needed it. When I needed it. That’s when I told you I started stealing my sister’s money to get high. I never did that crack or cocaine or heroine or nothing like that. I always smoked the marijuana. But I knew that my weed had got laced with something. Because that’s when I flipped out and I started- every time I got laced I got to seeing things and hearing things. And one time I got laced with something real strong and I went into the stroke.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. Yeah. And, I remember you said that you, you tore up your sister’s room.

ANDREW: Yeah I was just, like if I’m sitting, like if I was sitting in here. [laughs] And I know you’re like- “You better not tear up my office!” [laughs]

JULIE: [laughs] I know you won’t.

ANDREW: I got to just throwing everything on the floor. Just, just everything, just made it real messy. I was just screaming and they had to hold me down and couldn’t hold me down. I was trying to get the TV to fall on my head so I could just die. I was just- I wasn’t myself. I- I felt like a, I was saying I felt like a new generation came down from heaven and the generation that was here on earth went up to heaven and, all these white people there was like white and black people, like white- like the old times when they just had white and black movies.

JULIE: Black and white movies, okay.

ANDREW: That’s what it was. It was like, the old black and white movies was walking the earth. They was walking the earth.

JULIE: You were seeing the world in black and white, or there were people from?

ANDREW: There were people that wasn’t really there, but I seen ‘em.

JULIE: Okay, you were seeing people walking. Uh huh.

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ANDREW: Like on the earth.

JULIE: Walking around?

ANDREW: Yeah!

JULIE: What were they doing?

ANDREW: Just walking. Like a big old group of people.

JULIE: uh huh

ANDREW: Just walking.

JULIE: And how did you feel?

ANDREW: I was scared. I was in the house, but I was scared. I- I- and I tried, and then I’m sitting there, I’m watching TV, and it’s like, the TV was my momma. Like my momma was giving quote- quotations and quotation marks and writing things on the screen. Saying if you- if you- something something, “Call this number and we can help you.” And so I wrote the number down and I called them. I’m like, “I need help because I’m seeing this,” I was telling them that I was seeing things. And then my dad was like, “If you call them people, they’ll come get you. They’ll come pick you up for real.” [sighs]

JULIE: Who will come pick you up?

ANDREW: The people that I called. I didn’t know who they was though.

JULIE: Oh okay.

ANDREW: It was just some number that I called on TV. It was like, if you call this number we can help you.

JULIE: Oh okay.

ANDREW: And I called the number.

JULIE: And who did you talk to?

ANDREW: Some lady was on the phone. And I thought it was my- my old school that I went to. The alternative school. I thought it was- see all this is crazy.

JULIE: Sounds like it was all confusing.

ANDREW: Yeah it was all confusing.

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JULIE: Okay. So the day you tore up your sister’s room.

ANDREW: I got sent to the hospital. They came and they took me to the hospital. And that’s when they

JULIE: And you’d been seeing things. That was the day you were seeing the people from the black and white movies and you called the

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay.

ANDREW: That’s the same night. It was around one or two in the morning. I get sent to the hospital.

JULIE: Do you remember why you tore up your sister’s office- I mean [laughs] your sister’s room?

ANDREW: [laughs] I tore it up because, I was just upset. It was like, I just, I was upset that my momma was gone and wasn’t nobody listening to me, and it was like, nobody cared. And, it was like, everybody was just pushing me to the side, like I wasn’t even noticeable. Like, this, walk right past me, I’m just like a ghost or something. You know, and I just got so upset that I went in there and I tried to lay down in between my two sisters. They was like, “Andrew, what is you doing?” I was like, “I’m scared.” They was like, they was like, “Daddy! Andrew is lying in between us.” And he came in there and you know I just got to going crazy and, [sighs]

JULIE: Yeah. And then you ended up in the hospital that night. Mm-hmmm.

ANDREW: And then I end up being sent off to St. Luke’s.

JULIE: Is that a hospital?

ANDREW: It’s a hospital. They sent me to that hospital and I was there for three weeks, till I was released to go back home.

JULIE: And you were thirteen when this happened?

ANDREW: I was um, I think I was 13 or 14.

JULIE: Okay, mm-hmmm. So that happened and then, um, well I guess, you were saying that you had nobody to listen to you. Your mom was gone. Was she? Did she listen to you when you were little?

ANDREW: My mom, yeah. She was the only one. Are we almost done?

JULIE: Do you want to take a break?

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Fourth Interview with Andrew

JULIE: So, um, I guess I was going to start by asking you about, you said your sisters called you names when you were little?

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: And how did your parents react when they called you names?

ANDREW: It’s like my my mom would be like, cause I used to call my sister fat, cause she used to call me gay, and um, my mom would be like, “Quit calling him gay- he’s not gay.” And my dad would be like, “Stop calling her fat, she’s not fat.” But she really was. And he just didn’t want me to call her names either. Cause she’ll call me gay and I’ll her fat, but she’d called me gay first. And I’d call her fat. But, she still didn’t have the right to talk to me like that, ‘cause, I’m her brother. And then it was like, I was always treated wrong by her. It’s like, I don’t know, it was – it was terrible the way I was treated growing up.

JULIE: Can you tell me more about that?

ANDREW: It was like, I didn’t understand why, why my sister rejected me. It’s like they didn’t want to be around me and, they always said, “You weird. Why you so weird?” And, “Why do you act like that? Why do you switch when you walk? Why you a fag?” And, you know, stuff like that. And it always hurted me. Actually it pushed me away from them. It made me uncomfortable, like I wasn’t actually wanted. Like, you know what I’m saying, trying to say- like wanted, like acceptable to them.

JULIE: You weren’t acceptable to them?

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: Ok. And how did your parents respond to them doing that to you and saying that to you?

ANDREW: Well, um, I don’t think. I’m trying to see what’s____. Actually my mom passed away when I was 12. So, it, it was happening when she was living. But she passed away when I was 12. And then it was still going on. And um, it’s just like, it wasn’t really mentioned to my parents about what was happening.

JULIE: You didn’t tell them?

ANDREW: I didn’t tell them.

JULIE: How come?

ANDREW: Cause, I – I don’t know, I just was afraid.

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JULIE: What were you afraid of?

ANDREW: Of what they would think about it. Like what would they’re comments be. Like, “Are you really gay, Andrew?” You know what I’m saying? I was scared. Cause I didn’t know what to say.

JULIE: You were scared they might think you were-

ANDREW: Gay.

JULIE: Gay. Okay.

ANDREW: I didn’t want them to know at the time. So I really, I came out and told my family that I was gay when I turned 19. I knew it was going to happen anyway. I just knew when I turned 19 I was going to tell everybody. I just didn’t want to tell them at the moment cause I was uncomfortable with it.

JULIE: Yeah. So, you said you were worried about them finding out.

ANDREW: My parents?

JULIE: Yeah.

ANDREW: Yeah I was worried about them finding out because- like I said, I was scared cause um, I didn’t know- I didn’t know how they would react to it. You know if I told them, that I was gay. I didn’t know how they will react to it. What they would say? How they will feel about it? And what they will do, or? You know, I didn’t know.

JULIE: How were you- what were you worried they might do if they found out?

ANDREW: I don’t know, like punish me or something.

JULIE: Punish you. How did they feel about people being gay in general?

ANDREW: Well, I don’t know how my mom really felt about it. I know um, I know she’s a real spiritual person. She was a real spiritual person. She was a Christian, and she believed in what the Bible says. And my dad did also. So I think that she wasn’t real accepting of it. I don’t know how she felt about it to be honest. I never asked her.

JULIE: But you were worried she wasn’t accepting of it.

ANDREW: Right.

JULIE: And same thing with your- well what about your dad, how does he feel about- how did he feel about?

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ANDREW: Well, now it’s like my dad, he he’s really not comfortable with it, you know, but I told him that I am and can you please accept me for who I am, and I told him that. And he was like, well son, I’m going to have to accept you anyway because you’re my son. I accept you as my son. He said, I’m going to have to accept you anyway because you’re my son, but he was like, he was saying that um, I forgot what he said. He said something like, he accept me for who I am, but he was like, something like the gay- the gay stuff really don’t matter, or something like that he was saying. I really couldn’t it, you know, I really couldn’t get it down (pat) to what he was trying to say. Cause like, he was still uncomfortable with it. Like real not accepting of it cause he’s real religious. And you know, he’s not accepting of it. I already know he’s not. And I wouldn’t want to be around him, you know, knowing that he’s uncomfortable with it. And, even my sisters. But my sisters on my dad’s side of the family, they accepting of it. They don’t see nothing wrong with it. That’s what I like about that, but, my two sisters from my mom, they not accepting of it either. They talks about me still- to this day. They say um, they would say um, they would say um, like when I talk to them on the phone, like maybe a couple of weeks ago. No maybe less, when I talked to them on the phone, and um, she was like, “That’s nasty. That’s not clean.” And all this stuff and just trying to make me feel like, you know, like I’m not even worth it. And I- I was upset, you know what I’m saying. But I didn’t let it come out and, just let it, like the reaction of what I wanted to say didn’t come out. I just kept it in.

JULIE: Okay. Um, what did you want to say?

ANDREW: I wanted to say that y’all don’t understand me. Y’all never did. I always wanted to tell y’all that I was gay, but I didn’t- I knew y’all wouldn’t understand me because y’all never did. Y’all used to always talk about me but you never understood me. Y’all don’t know what- why I’m gay. Only God know why I’m gay. Only God understands who I am, and why I chose to be this way. Only God knows, and how I feel about this. God only knows. Y’all don’t know. And I wanted to tell them that, and go further on. You know what I’m saying?

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

ANDREW: It’s too hot. [sips tea]

JULIE: Be careful.

ANDREW: Yeah it’s hot. [laughs]

JULIE: Okay. Um, and so what do you remember about when your mom was still alive and her responding to your sister’s calling you “fag” and other things like that.

ANDREW: I remember um, [pause] I remember her um, I remember my mom saying um, “Stop that” um, “He’s not a fag. Don’t say that about him.” ______

JULIE: And do you remember, you talked about your dad not being accepting of it, you’re not, what do you remember about your mom and her thoughts on homosexuality?

ANDREW: I don’t remember.

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JULIE: Okay. Um, do you remember any specific times when you were worried they would find out or you worried that they thought you were gay when you were little?

ANDREW: Well, I kinda’ figured my mom knew before she passed away because one day she was sitting in the living room and, she told me she had a dream. And, like I said, she’s real spiritual. And she’s real into God, and she had a real good relationship with God. She was an outgoing person. She really knew God for herself and everybody knew she was a Christian. Everybody knew she was saved and she didn’t do wrong. She was living the rules and regulations of the Bible. She was a just real outgoing, saved person. Everybody knew she was saved. So, it was- I knew it was unexpected for her to just have a dream about me and then want to tell me because, she knew that it might hurt me or might cause me to wonder like- my mom know about me now.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

ANDREW: So she was like um, she was like um, she was like- “I had a dream.” She was like, I was like- “What was it?” She was like- “I’m not going to tell you.” She was like- “I’m not going to tell you.” And one other time I came in the living room, she was sitting down and she was like, “God told me you was going to go through a lot, in this world.” She would say that God told her that when I was little. She never told me that before till that day. Before she passed away she told me that.

JULIE: Okay. So you think that maybe she knew?

ANDREW: [nods]

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. And, how come she never said anything to you, do you think?

ANDREW: I don’t know, she never said anything to me about it. She never said anything about it to me. And that was weird because I felt like she should’ve let me know like she knew something. You know what I’m saying? Like she knew something that, you know, like she knew that I was gay all along. (like) she knew her son was going to be gay. But, she, she always said that I was going to marry a big fat woman. [laughs] Cause I um, cause it – this girl stayed down the street from me and she was a heavy-set girl. And, they used to say I had a crush on her and stuff and, I was like- “No, that’s not true,” and [laughs] and she used to always say I was going to marry a big fat woman and, I was like- “I don’t think so,” and, but anyway. Um, I don’t know, she never told me.

JULIE: So you never knew how she really would’ve reacted.

ANDREW: Right. I think she didn’t let her reaction- her feelings show. How she felt on the inside- she didn’t let it- she didn’t let it come out. She just held it in. And didn’t tell me anything.

JULIE: Um, but you, oh, how come you didn’t want her to know, when you were little?

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ANDREW: Cause I was scared how she would react. I was scared that, that our relationship wouldn’t be the same. I was scared that, maybe she would look at me differently. Maybe she wouldn’t accept me as her son or maybe she’d be mad at me all the time. Wouldn’t even be able to look me in my face, or, say “I love you”, or it was just so many thoughts.

JULIE: How did you feel when you thought about that?

ANDREW: I felt terrible. That’s why I didn’t want her to know. I didn’t want nobody to know at the time. But I- I believe there was a reason she passed away. I really do. Because I believe if she was still living, I probably wouldn’t even be like this. I don’t know.

JULIE: How- oh, go ahead.

ANDREW: I was saying, I don’t believe I’d be like this because I believe that my life would be totally different. But like, when she passed- I don’t know, but, when she was living, I always- it’s like I always knew that I was gay, when she was living, and I guess God didn’t want her to go on living, and knowing that her son was gay probably would’ve made a big issue in the family. For her knowing it, and, probably would’ve made her upset, or, you know or, did something to her, so God went on and took her because- I don’t know.

JULIE: It sounds like you’re saying, her dying is somehow connected to you being gay?

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay. And you said that you think things would be totally different. You would be different, if she had lived.

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: How would you be different?

ANDREW: I don’t know. I don’t know why I said that.

JULIE: Okay.

ANDREW: [laughs]

JULIE: How do you think your life would be different?

ANDREW: I just think I won’t, I wouldn’t be on medication. Because before, when she was living I wasn’t on medication. I was just living my life. I didn’t have to take no type of medication. I wasn’t hospitalized or anything. I was just living a normal life. But she passed away- I just lost it. I couldn’t think straight. I couldn’t act right. It’s like my mind wasn’t functioning right. It’s like a piece of my heart left and, it’s like I didn’t know who I was no more. It’s like everything went wrong. I had to take medication.

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JULIE: You didn’t know who you were anymore.

ANDREW: Right.

JULIE: After she died. Um, you had said that you didn’t believe that your mom was dead for a year after she passed away.

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: Can you tell me more about that?

ANDREW: When she passed away, um, December 29th, the day that she actually passed away, um, I went up to the hospital to see her. And she was lying in the bed and um, I looked at her. I knew that wasn’t her. You know cause her body had blown up. It was real big. Her head was real big. I just knew it wasn’t her. So I didn’t cry right away, it’s like- it’s like I was trying to make myself cry cause I couldn’t cry. And, I just was wondering where did – where did she go? You know, I didn’t, I thought she was just, I thought she just disappeared- went somewhere. You know I didn’t know she went to heaven right away. I just thought she, might’ve just went to another state, and like moved away. Went like- went on a vacation or something and never came back for a long time. And I thought she was coming back. But she never showed up.

JULIE: So you kept hoping she’d come back?

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: And, did you tell anyone that you thought she was coming back?

ANDREW: I told God.

JULIE: Okay. Did anyone explain to you that she was gone and wasn’t coming back?

ANDREW: [shook head no]

JULIE: When did you figure out that she wasn’t coming back?

ANDREW: When I got a little older.

JULIE: Okay. Yeah. That must’ve been really hard waiting and hoping she’d come back.

ANDREW: Yeah, that’s why I believe it tore me up on the inside real bad, and having to lose my mind and kinda’ went crazy for a little while and got real bad- hooked on drugs and you know just, really out there bad.

JULIE: But it was really the not knowing if your mom was coming back that really drove you-

ANDREW: Crazy

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JULIE: Crazy. What was that like?

ANDREW: I really can’t explain it. It was- it was a terrible feeling though because I always thought she would just, reappear. (cause) I had dreams that she was coming back, and, dreams that she would- I had dreams that she just walked through the door and woke up and she wasn’t there. I used to have those all the time, and I was just, I was just devastated. Cause I really thought she was coming back. But it never happened.

JULIE: Um, and you said your dad was depressed after your mom

ANDREW: Yeah he was sad around the house. Um, kinda’ arguing with us. Not arguing all the time but, he’d sometimes yell at us and be like- “Oh I’m sorry, I’m just depressed.” (Or say), you need to get out of the house, so he- he started liking my mother’s friend. He just said, God did something. He was saying God caused him to fall in love with that lady. And he fell love with her. Next thing you know they was married.

JULIE: Um, did you notice a change in your dad after your mom passed away?

ANDREW: Yeah, he was kinda’ sad all the time. And, he just didn’t like his self no more. And I wanted him to be happy again so I was- I was glad that he was getting remarried. So he could be under another woman again so he wouldn’t have to live the rest of his life alone.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. How did you make sense out of him being different after your mom died when you were 12?

ANDREW: Say that again?

JULIE: How did you make sense out of the changes you saw in your dad?

ANDREW: Um, just, being around him. Made things different cause, it was like I was- I was trying to be close to him but it’s like he wouldn’t open up and let me, just be closer to him. It’s like we wasn’t real close. It was like sometimes he would say stuff and it would just make me mad.

JULIE: Like what?

ANDREW: Like he – one time he said, “You just make me want to give up on you.” He said that one time, and it just turned me away from him.

JULIE: How did you feel when he said that?

ANDREW: Upset.

JULIE: What was going on when he said that?

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ANDREW: Oh I had just got locked up.

JULIE: Locked up for what?

ANDREW: I had um, stole- stole a car.

JULIE: How come?

ANDREW: Because I was just, I was just- just so much going through my head and just- I wanted to just drive away. Just get out of town. And um, really didn’t know- have no where to go. I didn’t know my streets. I didn’t know how to get around. I didn’t know where to go. I didn’t want to get lost and get stuck somewhere. So the police got to chasing me and, next thing you know I jump out the truck - get to running. It was like, we’re gonna tase you, you need to get down on the ground. So I got down on the ground and they handcuffed me and they took me to the police car and put me in there and took me down to the um, to the juvenile delinquent center. And next thing you know they call my father and let him – and let me talk to him and let him know that I was in jail. He was just so surprised. You know, I’d been missing the whole day. And, it was unexpected, so he was like, “Son you just make me want to give up on you.” Then he hung up.

JULIE: Then he hung up?

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: Mmm. How old were you when that happened?

ANDREW: I was 15.

JULIE: You said you just wanted to get away. What did you want to get away from so badly?

ANDREW: All my problems.

JULIE: What problems did you have?

ANDREW: Just, just being alone. Wishing my mom was here with me and, wishing was that I was just with her and, just really wanted to be alone. Just, be by myself. Just, I was listening to the radio while I was driving and stopped by the gas station and bought me some cigarettes. Just smoking and driving, and just really wanted to be by myself. Cause I was wishing I was in a car, so I wanted to steal a car so I could get away. And that’s what I did and I got locked up. I knew it was stupid though, but sometimes you have to suffer with your consequences.

JULIE: So you wanted to get away from being lonely?

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay. And missing your mom?

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ANDREW: [nods]

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. Yeah. Um, I guess I was wondering, um, what does it mean to be saved? You said your mom and dad were saved.

ANDREW: Well, it means to be in the arms of Jesus, you know, just being dedicated to him and you know like living by the word of God, you know in the Bible. You know the Bible- right?

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

ANDREW: Living by the Bible and praying and reading the word of God and, you know seeking him, and, like doing that like a every day thing and, you know that’s what they was doing. And it was like a every day thing for them. And I never seen someone so dedicated to God like them. And it really was an inspirational thing for me and my sisters, cause we was raised by that. We was brought up with the word of God being in our lives and being around it and, knowing our parents for who they are and we was accepting of it. It’s like they taught us so much about being saved, it’s like we know so much about God and who he is and you know.

JULIE: So, are you saved?

ANDREW: Yes.

JULIE: Okay. And what did- what did the Bible say about being gay?

ANDREW: (least) I know it says being gay is an abomination. I know, but, I know in the 10 commandments it don’t say – and you know, it don’t say anything about it. You know that don’t you?

JULIE: Yeah.

ANDREW: But what- how do you feel about it?

JULIE: About what?

ANDREW: Me being gay.

JULIE: You being gay? You’ve asked me before but, I’ve said that um, well, actually you haven’t asked me about you being gay, but. I think that people are born the way they are born, and, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with being gay. It adds, more diversity to our communities and I think, people should be honored and respected for who they are. Does that? My hope would be that you would be able to live your life as a gay man without being discriminated against or, hurt in any way. But I know it’s much more difficult. Our society doesn’t protect people who are gay the way it should. And so,

ANDREW: Thank you.

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JULIE: You’re welcome.

ANDREW: What time is it?

JULIE: It’s 1:25.

ANDREW: Oh.

JULIE: Um, so, I’m wondering if when you were growing up though that was hard for you, hearing about what it meant to be saved and knowing that you were gay and there was that conflict there.

ANDREW: Um, not really with me because I knew that I was alright. I knew that I was Christian still, because I was gay I just didn’t know if people really understood it.

JULIE: You didn’t know, what do you mean?

ANDREW: I said I really didn’t know if people understood the whole concept of me being gay and being a Christian. I didn’t know if people understood that.

JULIE: Like who?

ANDREW: Like people in general.

JULIE: Oh, okay.

ANDREW: Like everybody.

JULIE: Okay. When I asked this, I wasn’t suggesting you couldn’t be a Christian and be gay, I was just wondering how when you were growing up, if that ever was confusing for you or.

ANDREW: ______

JULIE: Okay, I wanted to go back to your dad for a little bit. How did you, your dad told you that he was just depressed after your mom died. Did that make sense to you? Did you underst- what did you think about him- the way he was behaving?

ANDREW: I did- I really didn’t understand it. But I knew that he was upset cause she passed away. But I remember him saying that she was coming home. He told us that God said she was coming home. She was going to be with us again. And, what God was really saying that she was going home to be with him. And he got it switched up, and he kept telling the family that she was coming- “God’s saying she’s coming home to be with us.” But really he was saying that she was going home to be with him. So, it was like a switch up.

JULIE: Was that before or after she passed away?

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ANDREW: Before she passed away.

JULIE: Oh okay. So you kept thinking your mom was going to come home.

ANDREW: Yeah. And then one day I talked to her on the phone and it was sad hearing her talk cause she wasn’t in her right mind, I just knew it. Cause she wasn’t talking like herself. Like she was out of it- you know. I was so sad. You know I could just cry right now, but I don’t want to cause I’m gonna mess up my makeup. [laughs] But, mmm.

JULIE: Yeah. It was really hard losing her.

ANDREW: It was.

JULIE: Yeah.

ANDREW: I guess it’s ______.

JULIE: Yeah. Um, I was wondering. We’ve sort of talked about, you’ve mentioned, well I guess I’ll just ask, how do you understand your being gay. Why do you think you’re gay?

ANDREW: I don’t know. That’s what I be asking God. I be like, God, why is it I’m gay? Why do I have to be like this? Why couldn’t I be straight? Why couldn’t I be a man and like women and, like how women. Cause I like how women look, but it’s like- I’m not attracted to a woman, just like I just want to be their friend and just go out with them, like to the club or you know- not the club, but you know what I’m trying to say. Like go out and hang out, and I just don’t look at women as like, me being in a physical relationship. I just, I look at men like that. I just like the way men look. And when I, I like to, I like to, cause I like, I like what I have. You know what I’m saying? I like that.

JULIE: You like your romantic partner to have that as well.

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: Yeah. Nothing wrong with that. So I’m wondering, you’ve said though, you’ve wondered if God made you gay for a reason or, have you thought about that? Or?

ANDREW: I believe God made me this way. You know what I’m saying? I believe he did make me this way.

JULIE: Okay.

ANDREW: I believe he did because, when I think about it, I just think – I be thinking so much about it, I’ve been wondering like, if I’m this way, I have to be this way for a reason. You know, God had to make this way if I’m this way and I don’t understand why I’m like this. It’d have to be a reason why because I don’t see myself changing. And if people be saying, “Well God can

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deliver you. And God can change you.” I’m like I believe that- but I don’t believe it’s possible because I don’t believe God don’t want to because this is me. You understand what I’m saying?

JULIE: Yeah. You’re saying that God could change you but he won’t because he made you this way for a reason.

ANDREW: Right.

JULIE: What do you think that reason is? What might that be?

ANDREW: I believe that it has something to do with my mother.

JULIE: Something to do with your mother. What do you think it has to do with your mother?

ANDREW: (Her pain.) I think the love, the love that- I’ll never get this right. I think that the love that I have for her and the reason I was so always so under her and hugging her so much, she used to tell people, “Andrew hug me all the time. I can’t get him off of me.” And, it’s like I was so attached to her that, that love stayed with me and it made me so attached to, wanna be attached to men because I never was loved by a man before. I’m- you know what I’m trying to say? I never was loved by my father the way my mother loved me, so it turned me to men, to want to be loved by men. You know what I’m trying to say? Do you?

JULIE: What I’m hearing you say is that, because your dad didn’t love you the way your mom did, you were attracted to men cause you wanted to make up for that? You wanted to get that love?

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay.

ANDREW: And I – I feel that I never could get no love from no other woman but my mother, so it made it me not to want to like women. And because my mother left me at a young age it’s like I could never find that love again. So it’s like that love stuck with me, but it- it was only a love for my mother. It wasn’t a love that I would have for another woman, but for a man.

JULIE: So the love stuck with you but it would never be for another woman, just for a man. Yeah. Um, I was going to ask about, you had mentioned, um, that you tried to pull a TV down on your head. Cause you wanted to die.

ANDREW: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Have you ever tried to kill yourself?

ANDREW: That was- I think that was the only time. This one time, I wasn’t- I had a knife, I really wasn’t going to do nothing with it I just was playing with it. But I was serious about

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killing myself, but I really wasn’t, I just tried to see if it was gonna go in, but it – I just really didn’t want to do it.

JULIE: How old were you when that happened?

ANDREW: I was 14.

JULIE: What was going on then?

ANDREW: I was just still devastated over my mom. And it’s like, wasn’t nobody listening to me at the time I was trying to talk about stuff. Wasn’t nobody listening to me. It’s like I wasn’t concentrated on, it’s like I wasn’t getting the attention that I needed. It just made me just go into this like panic attack. I don’t know if it was a panic attack or anxiety or whatev- whatever it was. It just made me get a knife and go in my room and, I just slammed down the wall, just just, getting ready to just- I (was) trying to slice it like this, but I was trying to just, you know.

JULIE: What was that panic attack like, from not getting the attention you needed?

ANDREW: It was like, it was hard for me to –to accept the fact that my mom passed away. And it’s like, even when I was at the funeral I didn’t go up to the casket and look at her. I wish I would’ve looked at her again before she- before they rolled her out. I wish I would’ve had another chance to see how she looked, you know.

JULIE: How come you didn’t go look at her?

ANDREW: Cause I was scared.

JULIE: What were you scared of?

ANDREW: I don’t know. It’s just- I walked right past her and sat down.

JULIE: Okay. But you were saying that um, can you tell me more about that feeling of panic when nobody was listening to you or paying attention. What happened.

ANDREW: It was like, I was in the house and, my dad’s in the living room, I mean in the kitchen talking on the phone. My sisters, they gone. I couldn’t find nobody to sit down and talk to. My dad- I’m like, “Dad can I talk to you? Are you still on the phone?” He’s like, “No, not right now.” I’m like, “No, I need to talk to somebody.” You know he wouldn’t sit down and talk to me so I’m like, oh my goodness- should I run away? What should I do? It was like I’m panicking. And so I just, he wasn’t looking. I went in there and I just grabbed it, and I kind of stuck it, like under my shirt and I went to my room and, I just rolled down the wall- you know, slid down the wall and just fell to the floor and I was just crying. I was just like, trying, I was going like this, but I didn’t really want to kill myself.

JULIE: What did you want to do?

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ANDREW: I wanted to kill myself but I really didn’t. It’s like my self wasn’t going to let it happen.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

ANDREW: You know?

JULIE: Yeah. And that feeling of panic, not knowing what to do

ANDREW: It was scary.

JULIE: Yeah.

ANDREW: But I actually I put the knife down. I just pushed it under my bed and I just got up and laid down.

JULIE: Oh, okay. Did it feel like you were losing your mind?

ANDREW: [nods]

JULIE: Can you tell me more about how it felt like that?

ANDREW: It just felt like so much was going through my head, you know, wishing my mom was there, wishing I could talk to her. That she was beside me, because one time my dad told me that my mama was coming home, and um, she actually did come home that night, from the hospital- brought her home. They pulled her through the door, she was in the hospital bed and pushed her to the back room, in the house. She was in the back room and the man was going over paper work- telling my dad he couldn’t have sex her and that she needed to take this medication at this time and, she needed to be, um, comfortable at all times and come check on her and this and that. So, my dad told my auntie that um, that my mom had came home, so they came over and stuff. And they sitting in the room crying cause my mom had came home. And they was- my mom was still in pain. She was kind of talking out of it, like she wasn’t really herself. And she was like, she was like, “I really don’t want y’all to see me like this.” And I was like, “Mom, I love you” and um, she was like, “I love you too son. And I don’t want you to see me like this.” And my auntie started rubbing her feet cause she was like, “My feet hurt. They swole. My feet is swole.” And so my auntie got to rubbing my mama’s feet. And, my mom was crying. I just didn’t want to see my mom like that. So, it was about time for us to go to sleep. My auntie ____ whatever. So it’s about time for us to go to sleep, so I get ready to go lay down and, I just hear my mama moaning and stuff. She’s in pain. And I’m crying in my sleep. I’m crying, I couldn’t go to sleep, so I’m crying and crying. I wanted to go in there and just talk to her, you know, pray for her and stuff, but I was scared. I didn’t know what to do. So, she ended up going back to the hospital that night. She told my dad that she wanted to go back to the hospital. So when I heard that I got up and I walked in there, I said, “Mom are you ok?” She was like, “Yes Andrew. I don’t want you to” She was like, “Get out of here. I don’t want you to see me like this.” So that’s when the um, the ambulance arrived. And they took her back to the hospital. And it’s like, December 29th, that’s when I woke up and I went into my dad’s room. And I laid in his bed

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cause he wasn’t there. So I’m wondering where he is. So next thing you know, someone, my sister calls and she said um, “I want y’all to be strong for Daddy.” I’m like, what’re you talking about? I didn’t say to her, like what’re you talking about, I’m like- what’s going on? And she didn’t tell us that my mom passed away till we got to the hospital. And I’m walking through the door, going into the emergency room and I was like, “Dad, did my mom pass away?” He was like, “Yeah.” And I went in there, I’m like- “That’s not my mom. Like, where is she?” You know what I’m saying, like, “Where did she go? That’s not her.” And I didn’t cry, but my two sisters was crying. And my brother- my other brothers on my dad’s side was there- they was crying and my auntie was crying real loud. I wasn’t crying at all. And then everybody, they, my auntie was saying that it’s not her too. And that’s when they everybody left out of there I was in there with my one auntie. My one auntie was in there and I was in there with her and she was talking to me. And she was saying just talking to me, I forget what she was talking to me about and I was trying to make myself cry but I wouldn’t cry. I just didn’t know what to do.

JULIE: Didn’t know what to do. No. Um, I was wondering if, so we were just talking before about how, when after your mom had passed away how you had felt like there was no one for you to talk to and that’s why you went and tried to kill yourself. Um, and can you, you felt panicked like you were having a panic attack. Um, how is that similar to when you felt like you lose your mind?

ANDREW: Say that again.

JULIE: Cause I’d asked if that felt sort of like when you lose your mind, when you lost your mind.

ANDREW: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Um, if that panicky feeling, had anything, was it all like that?

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: Was it? How were they similar?

ANDREW: Well the time when I was panicked, when I was threatening to cut myself, it felt like I was kind of like losing my mind. But I wasn’t. It’s like – kind of like over, what’s it called, like over-pass, like it passed me by?

JULIE: Oh okay.

ANDREW: Like when a tornado coming and it pass by, and it don’t hit the town but it go to another town.

JULIE: Ok.ay

ANDREW: It’s like it passed me by, it’s like I was____ going to it you know, like losing my mind, but it didn’t happen. So I was that didn’t happen, but the time, I remember the time I did

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lose my mind. Cause I lost my mind a couple of time and it was scary. I didn’t understand it, but it was like, it was like just my mind leaving and I didn’t know who I was no more, and it was scary because, I didn’t know what to do. It’s like I was just stuck. It’s like I didn’t know who I was.

JULIE: Yeah. Didn’t know who you were. Ok. When that happened with the knife, you did know who you were?

ANDREW: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay, but it felt like you might lose your mind. But then it didn’t happen.

ANDREW: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Okay. Um, and, I was going to ask, this is just, this is my last question. And I’m not asking- just remember the incident you told me about with the boy, the older boy? What month did that happen in, do you remember?

ANDREW: What older boy?

JULIE: Or was it the boy- at the Boys and Girls club.

ANDREW: Oh yeah, you mean when he raped me?

JULIE: Yeah.

ANDREW: What about it?

JULIE: Just, do you remember what month of the year that happened in?

ANDREW: It happened when my mother was living. So that had to have been in 2003.

JULIE: Okay. And, do you remember if it happened in like, fall or the winter.

ANDREW: It happened in the, I believe in fall.

JULIE: Thanks that was my last question.

ANDREW: Okay.

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Appendix H

Transcripts of Interviews with Alisha

[“Mm-hmmm,” indicates yes or agreement. “Mm-mm,” indicates no or disagreement.]

First Interview with Alisha

JULIE: So I thought that maybe we could start with how did you end up in Woodside State Hospital?

ALISHA: I had quit taking my meds.

JULIE: Oh, okay. And then what happened?

ALISHA: Um, I just quit taking my meds and then I thought I was doing good, but I had started self medicating with marijuana again- a little bit. And um, uh, I went to court and they told me I had to start taking my meds again. And I had refused them, so they came with um, with ah, they had came to pick me up and take me to Community Mental Health.

JULIE: What happens when you don’t take your meds.

ALISHA: I don’t know because it was the first time I had stopped taking them in some years so, but. I had stopped taking them and I thought I was doing good. My thinking was clear and, but I did start self-medicating a little bit with marijuana again. Started having the urge for it. So I guess my symptoms were coming back.

JULIE: What kind of symptoms do you get?

ALISHA: just with my thinking. That’s the only thing I can think of. Other than that everything was going good.

JULIE: Your thinking? You said you thought your thinking was clear but what happens to your thinking, if?

ALISHA: I was just bored. I did it out of boredom really.

JULIE: You started smoking marijuana out of boredom?

ALISHA: Yeah, out of boredom.

JULIE: You said you use it to self medicate?

ALISHA: Um, I guess it was like a replacement of my medications.

JULIE: What were you using it for? Like what was it helping relieve?

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ALISHA: I don’t know. I did it out of boredom, so, but it was to help me think.

JULIE: Okay, it helps you think better?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay. When did you first get put on medications?

ALISHA: In 2001.

JULIE: Okay, what was going on then.

ALISHA: Um, I had went, I had got sick. I had um, was depressed and, I mean I wasn’t really depressed, I was just staying in the house a lot and wasn’t cleaning up and was hearing voices and stuff like that. I had started hearing voices and I didn’t know what was going on.

JULIE: When did you start hearing voices?

ALISHA: In 2001.

JULIE: Okay, what was that like for you.

ALISHA: It was new. It was new. Like I said, I didn’t know what was going on.

JULIE: Sounds like it was confusing.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: What did the voices say to you?

ALISHA: Um, they was saying bad stuff.

JULIE: Bad stuff.

ALISHA: Yeah, like they’ll set my couch on fire. They could set my couch on fire. There was this guy in the neighborhood. He was a bad guy. Didn’t nobody really, um, like him too much because he was a mean person. And he had died. And he was saying that he could set my couch on fire. And I was sitting in the house one day and he said that. And I went outside because I didn’t know how to react to it.

JULIE: Hearing the voice of a dead man saying he was going to, he could set your couch on fire.

ALISHA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: So he was one of the voices. Were there others?

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ALISHA: His sister and um, those were really. Oh my friends that I had grown up with, I heard their voices too. Saying that they were going to come pick me up one night and take me out. And I had got up and got ready and stuff and did my hair and stuff [laughs] and they never showed up.

JULIE: So it sounds like they were saying nice things, like –we’re going to take you out, we’re going to pick you up.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: And what about the bad guy’s sister. What was her voice saying?

ALISHA: I can’t remember.

JULIE: Was it also scary like what he had said.

ALISHA: Yeah it was scary.

JULIE: Threatening?

ALISHA: No, not really threatening. [pause]

JULIE: So that guy, the bad guy in your neighborhood who died, what was your relationship like with him when he was alive?

ALISHA: It wasn’t good. [pause]

JULIE: Can you tell me more about it?

ALISHA: Um, I actually had sex with him before he had died. Yeah. But, before, I mean after that, I was, the voices was telling me he was molesting my son or something like that. He had molested my son. After that, after I had had sex with him.

JULIE: How old were you when you had sex with him?

ALISHA: I was like 22, 23.

JULIE: Okay. And, was it consensual?

ALISHA: Yeah, but I didn’t want to.

JULIE: You didn’t want to. How did it end up happening?

ALISHA: He just came over to my house and, um, [pause] he kind of forced his way on me but,

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JULIE: I’m so sorry to hear that.

ALISHA: He didn’t rape me or anything, I mean, I was, it was consensual, but I didn’t like him.

JULIE: You didn’t want to have sex with him.

ALISHA: Mm-mm.

JULIE: Did it only happen once?

ALISHA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Did you have other experiences of people having sex with you when you didn’t want to?

ALISHA: Uh,

JULIE: Or other people forcing themselves on you?

ALISHA: Um, [pause] no. Yeah there was this one guy. He forced his way on me. He used to hold me down and put hickeys on my cheek. And I didn’t like that. He forced his way on me one time, and I had poured some beer on him and he, he got off of me, but.

JULIE: How old were you when that happened?

ALISHA: I was like 22, 23.

JULIE: So, back in 2001, when you started hearing the voices, you were feeling kind of depressed, like you were having trouble cleaning and getting out of the house. What else was going on then? Were you living by yourself?

ALISHA: Yeah, my son had moved in with my mom and um, [pause], uh, yeah. My son had moved in with my mom.

JULIE: How come?

ALISHA: Because I couldn’t afford my bills and uh, I was getting ready to get evicted out my apartment so my mom came and got my son.

JULIE: Sounds like things were really tough for you then.

ALISHA: Mm hmm. They were.

JULIE: And where was your son’s father?

ALISHA: He hasn’t been around.

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[Brief interruption]

JULIE: So we were talking about 2001, and I had asked where your son’s dad was.

ALISHA: He wasn’t there.

JULIE: Okay, what was your relationship with him like?

ALISHA: It was okay, we really didn’t have too much of a relationship. We just had sex and that was it.

JULIE: Okay. How old were you when you had your son?

ALISHA: 14 going on 15.

JULIE: That’s pretty young.

ALISHA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: So, um, in 2001, was that the first time you started to have problems psychologically in terms of feeling depressed and stuff.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Never been in therapy before then?

ALISHA: No.

JULIE: And so in 2001 you started to hear voices, and then, what happened how did you end up getting medicated?

ALISHA: um, I had ended up homeless and I was living on the streets and the psych ward. I was writing the president asking him to send me some money. And the psych ward, I had wrote a letter, the last letter, and I had told the president that I’ll be sleeping at the police station if he can get in touch with me at the police station that would be good. And vice president Dick Cheney called me at the police station and I called my mom and told her that I was happy. And I was telling her and she didn’t believe me. And her and my aunt went to the judge and said I was having delusions and, they came and picked me up off the streets and put me in the hospital and then that’s when the psychiatrist came, asked me some questions. She said you sound like you’re schizophrenic, or something like that. And, that’s when they started me on medication.

JULIE: And, how long did you stay in the hospital?

ALISHA: I was there for like a month. Maybe not even that long.

JULIE: And then once you got out, what happened?

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ALISHA: Um, I was taking my meds and I had went to a group home and, um I had got out the group home and I was staying at a hotel and then I ended up moving to Middletown with my mom.

JULIE: You lived with your mom?

ALISHA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: And then how did that go living with your mom?

ALISHA: It went okay. She’s kind of argumentative sometimes, but, [pause]

JULIE: you’re shaking your head.

ALISHA: I have to look over her sometimes. I wish we could get along better but, I don’t know. [tearful] [pause for 30 seconds]

JULIE: So what happens with you and your mom. You said I wish we could get along better but-

ALISHA: She just, she doesn’t, she doesn’t really talk to me too much. [tearful] And when she does she’s fussing a lot or something like that. Sometimes. She’s been doing better lately.

JULIE: What do you mean by fussing?

ALISHA: Just fussing. Fussing at me like I’m not good enough or something.

JULIE: So like criticizing you? Telling you what you’re not doing right?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: It sounds like that really hurts you when she does that.

ALISHA: It does.

JULIE: What was your mom like when you were growing up?

ALISHA: We didn’t have too much of a relationship. It wasn’t really good. We didn’t really talk, we didn’t talk too much. And she still doesn’t talk to me.

JULIE: Did you have any brothers or sisters?

ALISHA: I have a brother.

JULIE: Is he older or younger?

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ALISHA: younger, a year younger.

JULIE: And how about your dad?

ALISHA: He’s not around. I talk to him on the phone but he doesn’t do anything for me.

JULIE: how about when you were little?

ALISHA: He never came around or anything.

JULIE: So who raised you?

ALISHA: my mom and my grandmother. My grandmother raised me until she passed away.

JULIE: When did she pass away?

ALISHA: In ’85.

JULIE: How old were you?

ALISHA: I was like 9.

JULIE: Oh, you were young when she passed away.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: So then it was just your mom.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: So when you think back on your childhood and growing up with your mom, were you lonely or?

ALISHA: yeah. [pause]

JULIE: Who could you turn to when you were upset or hurt?

ALISHA: Nobody.

JULIE: It must have been really hard.

ALISHA: It was. [tearful] And on top of all that, she was abusive.

JULIE: What did she do?

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ALISHA: She would hit me. Like it wasn’t bad enough that we didn’t talk and she didn’t say nothing to me. And when she did say something it was all negative.

JULIE: So the only things she would say to you were negative.

ALISHA: Verbal abusive.

JULIE: Did she call you names?

ALISHA: Yeah. [pause]

JULIE: And when she hit you, did she ever say why she was hitting you?

ALISHA: No, she didn’t have no reason to. She’d take her anger out on me.

JULIE: Did you know when a beating was coming?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: How did you know?

ALISHA: When she’d come raging in my room. She’d be in her room yelling at me.

JULIE: How did you feel when you heard her yelling in her room?

ALISHA: I don’t know. [pause]

JULIE: I wonder if it was scary for you?

ALISHA: Yeah, it was scary, but at the same time I defended myself a little bit.

JULIE: How would you defend yourself?

ALISHA: With words. I’d tell her I just wanted to die. I should just kill myself and be with my grandma. And she didn’t care.

JULIE: She didn’t care.

ALISHA: No.

JULIE: When did you start feeling like you should kill yourself?

ALISHA: When I was like, 10 or 11.

JULIE: So after your grandma was gone, it sounds like maybe things got worse?

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ALISHA: Yeah, because I stayed with my grandma when she was living.

JULIE: You lived with your grandma? How long did you live with her?

ALISHA: Till she died. Like a year before she died.

JULIE: And when did your mom start abusing you?

ALISHA: Soon after she died. Maybe even before. No, soon after she died.

JULIE: How come you lived with your grandma instead of your mom?

ALISHA: I don’t know.

JULIE: They never explained that?

ALISHA: [shakes her head no]

JULIE: What kind of contact did you have with your mom when you were living with your grandma?

ALISHA: Only when she came around.

JULIE: Okay. How often was that?

ALISHA: Not too often.

JULIE: Once a month?

ALISHA: [pause] Yeah.

JULIE: What was it like when she came around.

ALISHA: I can’t remember. I only remember her there on holidays. [pause]

JULIE: What was she like on the holidays?

ALISHA: She was fine.

JULIE: What was your grandma like?

ALISHA: She was alright. She didn’t say too much either. But she bought me anything I wanted. [pause]

JULIE: So she bought you things. Was she at all verbally or physically abusive?

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ALISHA: No.

JULIE: Okay, but she didn’t say much either.

ALISHA: [nods]

JULIE: So, did you feel like you could go to her when you felt upset?

ALISHA: I really didn’t express feeling. I didn’t have no, no expression. I was just numb. I didn’t have too much going on.

JULIE: So you were just numb? Do you ever remember a time before being numb?

ALISHA: No. [pause]

JULIE: What about your brother. What was he like?

ALISHA: He was mean.

JULIE: He was mean to you?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: What did he do?

ALISHA: He used to bother me. [pause for 30 seconds] We didn’t get along. We barely get along now. He stays, he moved to Florida a few years ago. We don’t talk, too much. We talk, but we don’t talk too much. I try to be as nice as I can to him, to all my family, my mom, my brother, my father. They just don’t wanna, they just don’t wanna interact I guess, with me. They interact with each other, but they don’t wanna interact with me.

JULIE: That must be really painful.

ALISHA: Yeah, it is.

JULIE: Who do you have in your life that supports you?

ALISHA: Nobody. [pause] I mean, my mom, she calls, to see how I’m doing. She calls, she’s my biggest support I guess. Like I said, she’s been calling more often lately. Talking more.

JULIE: What’s that been like for you?

ALISHA: Good. [pause] I guess she just don’t understand me. [pause] My father don’t either.

JULIE: You don’t feel understood by them.

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ALISHA: No. By no one.

JULIE: You don’t feel like anyone understands you. It would be pretty hard and lonely having no one to understand you.

ALISHA: It is hard.

JULIE: What about your therapist?

ALISHA: We don’t really talk about too much. Like what’s going on in here, that’s it.

JULIE: Do you feel understood by him or her?

ALISHA: No.

JULIE: I’m sorry. [pause] Have you ever felt understood?

ALISHA: No. [pause]

JULIE: Can you tell me more what it’s like to not be understood?

ALISHA: You just want to isolate yourself. Go away. I don’t even want to be here no more. I wish I could just go to heaven and stay.

JULIE: You wish you were dead?

ALISHA: Yep.

JULIE: Are you planning on killing yourself?

ALISHA: No.

JULIE: But it’s so painful being here that it feels like it would be a relief to be dead.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: What has happened when you’ve tried to connect with other people?

ALISHA: Don’t work.

JULIE: Don’t work?

ALISHA: They just turn their back on me.

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JULIE: They just turn their back on you?

ALISHA: Yeah. [still tearful]

JULIE: What happens before they turn their back on you?

ALISHA: I don’t know. [pause] It’s like they don’t even connect to begin with.

JULIE: They don’t even connect to begin with.

ALISHA: Like they got something against me or something.

JULIE: So like you feel rejected from the beginning?

ALISHA: Yeah. [pause] I don’t know if it’s because I have a mental illness or what. I just living one day at a time.

JULIE: One day at a time.

ALISHA: Yeah. [pause for 35 seconds]

JULIE: Oh, you looking for a garbage can? Here you go.

ALISHA: Thank you.

JULIE: And when you say your mom doesn’t understand you and your dad doesn’t understand you and nobody understands you. What is it that people are missing, what aren’t they?

ALISHA: I don’t know. [pause] And a part of me though want to be accepted I guess.

JULIE: Of course.

ALISHA: [pause] But I’m a strong person. I have to be.

JULIE: What does it mean to be a strong person?

ALISHA: To keep living every day. I wanted to kill myself. I guess it’s not that bad.

JULIE: Life isn’t that bad?

ALISHA: Yeah, I guess I can handle it. I’m a strong person, I guess. But.

JULIE: It sounds like life would be a lot easier for you if you had people who understood you.

ALISHA: It would.

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JULIE: Yeah.

ALISHA: When my son, he, he don’t understand. [pause]

JULIE: What’s he like?

ALISHA: It’s like he has more respect for my mom than he does for me. [pause] I’ve told him, apologized for everything I’ve done wrong in his life. He’s not like he used to be though. He still doesn’t really talk to me too much. He talks more than he used to though. [pause]

JULIE: How old is he?

ALISHA: Nineteen.

JULIE: You said that he seems to have more respect for your mom than you.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: What do you mean by that?

ALISHA: Like he love her more than he love me. [tearful] [pause]

JULIE: Sounds like he’s closer to her than he is to you.

ALISHA: Somewhat. [pauses for 50 seconds] (mumbles – but I live through it every day?)

JULIE: What helps you get through each day?

ALISHA: Thinking positive. Knowing that I’m not going to be here one day.

JULIE: Knowing you’ll be dead one day? Is that what you?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: I can hear just how painful it is for you to be alive every day. I wonder if, part of what you talked about with self-medicating was to deal with being so alone and isolated and misunderstood. Or not understood.

ALISHA: That’s just out of boredom.

JULIE: Out of boredom, okay.

ALISHA: Calms me down, puts me in my own little world. [pause]

JULIE: So it helps with calming you down?

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ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: When did you start smoking?

ALISHA: When I was 16. [pause]

JULIE: What are you thinking about?

ALISHA: What’s going on out there.

JULIE: Okay. You mentioned friends from when you were younger. What were they like?

ALISHA: They were all right. They made me feel wanted sometimes. And feel like I was a part of them. But they don’t talk to me now. I don’t know why.

JULIE: You don’t know what happened? When did you drift apart? Or when did they stop talking to you?

ALISHA: They moved to Chicago and I moved to Middletown. I had went and visited them one time. And it didn’t go too good I guess. And uh,

JULIE: It didn’t what?

ALISHA: It didn’t go too good.

JULIE: Oh. What happened?

ALISHA: Uh, I caught myself liking this girl and her sister didn’t approve of it. And she, she acted like she didn’t approve of it. The girl did, but was sending mixed signals. And uh, I was just expressing myself to her and she threatened to burn me. [tearful]

JULIE: What did you say to her?

ALISHA: Telling her I liked her. And I guess I was being kind of touchy-feely, a little bit. But I thought we were closer than that and she was threatening to burn me and she did.

JULIE: She threatened to burn you or she did?

ALISHA: She threatened to.

JULIE: Her sister or the woman you were-

ALISHA: The woman I liked.

JULIE: She threatened to burn you.

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ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Oh. That really hurt you. Did she say, so she said, I’m gonna burn you if-

ALISHA: She was just like, Lisha, I’ll burn you. [pause]

JULIE: Were you attracted to her?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay. [pause] Was she the only woman you’ve been attracted to?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Was that confusing for you?

ALISHA: Confusing? No. [pause]

JULIE: Had you been attracted to men up until that point?

ALISHA: I’ve never been attracted to men.

JULIE: Oh.

ALISHA: I just had sex with them.

JULIE: How come?

ALISHA: I don’t know. It felt like it was something I had to do.

JULIE: You had to do it because…

ALISHA: To make them happy.

JULIE: What would happen if you didn’t make them happy?

ALISHA: Probably nothing. [pause] Or they probably wouldn’t like me or something, I don’t know. I didn’t think a lot when I was coming up, I just did stuff. Stupid stuff.

JULIE: It sounds like you wanted them to like you.

ALISHA: No, I didn’t want them to like me. I don’t know why I did it.

JULIE: So looking back on it, it still doesn’t make sense to you, why you did it?

ALISHA: No. I don’t know why I did it. I just did it just to be doing something I guess.

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JULIE: Did you feel closer to them when you did it?

ALISHA: No.

JULIE: I wonder if maybe you did it because you wanted to feel connected or understood by someone?

ALISHA: Yeah. [pause]

JULIE: Sometimes I wait, because I’m not sure if you have more to say. I don’t want to cut you off if you do. Okay. [pause] So when you think about yourself in terms of your sexual orientation, what’s your identity like?

ALISHA: I think I’m, gay. [pause] I really liked Lexie, the girl I was telling you about.

JULIE: Yeah. Have you told anyone about being gay?

ALISHA: Not really. My therapist. Not really no.

JULIE: So your family doesn’t know?

ALISHA: No, I told my dad.

JULIE: You did? How did he respond?

ALISHA: He didn’t like it.

JULIE: What did he say?

ALISHA: He was talking about having a party and he was like, well if you gonna come with her, then you shouldn’t come.

JULIE: With Lexie?

ALISHA: No, it was a different girl at the time. But I’m not attracted to her.

JULIE: Were you dating her?

ALISHA: No. I was telling him I liked her. [pause] And that I would show up at his party with her. And he said no.

JULIE: How did you feel when he said that?

ALISHA: It was all right. I didn’t get too. I understood a bit.

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JULIE: You understood.

ALISHA: A little bit, yeah.

JULIE: What did you?

ALISHA: Cause I didn’t know, I didn’t know if I was gay- the manly type gay or the other type gay. But, if it ever came down to it, I think I would be the other type gay. The girly type gay.

JULIE: Lesbian?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: How do you feel about that?

ALISHA: I’m happy about it.

JULIE: So your mom doesn’t know?

ALISHA: No.

JULIE: So this is a part of your life that your mom doesn’t know about. Does your brother know?

ALISHA: No.

JULIE: Did your friends know?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: How did they respond?

ALISHA: Only one friend know. I considered Lexie’s sister my best friend. And she knew I liked her sister. But, I guess she didn’t approve of it too much.

JULIE: How come?

ALISHA: I don’t know. I don’t know why she didn’t approve of it?

JULIE: How did you know that she didn’t approve?

ALISHA: Cause she was mad.

JULIE: Did she tell you she was mad.

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ALISHA: Mmm, at how I was coming off at her sister. But she should, she should’ve known. I mean we was sleeping together. We hadn’t had sex or anything, but I was staying the night with her. Sleep in the same bed as her. She knew that much. But she never act like she was mad at any other time. No.

JULIE: You would spend the night with Lexie.

ALISHA: Yeah, we never had sex though. When I went to Chicago we kissed but,

JULIE: But?

ALISHA: That was it.

JULIE: When did she threaten to burn you?

ALISHA: When I went to Chicago.

JULIE: After you kissed her, or?

ALISHA: Yeah. I was like going towards her. She was (mumbles- under her clothes?) And I was going towards her, just touching her, you know, like. That’s when she said she’ll burn me.

JULIE: That’s when she said she’ll burn you.

ALISHA: Touching her on her face, telling her how pretty she was.

JULIE: Is she the only one you tried to get romantically involved with?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Do you think you want to have a romantic relationship when you get out of here?

ALISHA: I’d like to get my health problems taken care of, and then have a romantic relationship with someone. [pause] I was hoping I could go to Chicago and find Lexie and Donna and start a life over again with them. I wouldn’t mind doing that.

JULIE: Is Donna her sister?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Did you feel like Donna understood you?

ALISHA: Not really, or she wouldn’t have got mad at me.

JULIE: Could someone understand you but still get mad at you?

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ALISHA: Yeah. [pause]

JULIE: You talked about health problems. Do you mean physical health problems or mental health problems?

ALISHA: Physical, and mental. I’m taking care of my mental, but I need my physical problems taken care of. My physical appearance.

JULIE: What do you do to take care of your mental health?

ALISHA: Take meds. Coping skills.

JULIE: And how do you understand, the difficulties you’ve had. What’s your understanding of it?

ALISHA: Difficulties, what kind of difficulties?

JULIE: Mental health difficulties.

ALISHA: How do I understand it?

JULIE: Yeah.

ALISHA: Uh, I didn’t know no better. Now I do. And I try to live the best life I can live.

JULIE: Do you think you have a mental illness?

ALISHA: Because things I did in the past, that told me maybe I had a mental illness, I don’t do anymore. And I don’t understand it.

JULIE: What don’t you understand?

ALISHA: The whole mental illness part. Because the only things I did in the past, I was promiscuous and I’m not promiscuous anymore, and going off of medications, I was hoping it wouldn’t make me promiscuous again. I don’t know if it would. I don’t think I would ever go back to the way I used to be.

JULIE: I wonder if maybe you were the way you used to be for a reason.

ALISHA: What do you mean?

JULIE: Well I wonder if being promiscuous served a purpose for you.

ALISHA: Yeah it told me not to be that way no more.

JULIE: Okay, from your experience of being promiscuous you learned not to anymore.

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ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: And I wonder if maybe, by being promiscuous you were trying to, it was serving a function for you, like. You were trying to meet a need by being promiscuous.

ALISHA: Feel wanted.

JULIE: Yeah.

ALISHA: I just wanted to feel wanted and loved.

JULIE: That makes sense to me. So if the reason you were diagnosed with a mental illness is because you were promiscuous, but you were promiscuous because you just wanted to feel wanted and love, it seems like really your diagnosis should be – didn’t feel wanted and loved.

ALISHA: Yeah, cause the medication don’t do nothing for me but mess me up. It distracts me. Like when I went off the medication for four months. My thinking was clearer. Everything was going right for me. And then when I took it, it messed my brain up. And I went back to not wanting to do anything.

JULIE: Because you’d been on the meds for a long time. From 2001 until you came in here.

ALISHA: And I stopped cleaning my house on medication. Before I started taking medication I used to clean my house, take better care of myself. [tearful] And when I’m on the medication I don’t want to do that.

JULIE: It sounds like the medication makes you feel depressed.

ALISHA: It does, but, ain't no way of getting off of it and getting out of this hospital.

JULIE: Yeah.

ALISHA: But before I got in here, I mean before I got on meds, it wasn’t nothing I couldn’t handle about my life. I wasn’t really depressed, I was just confused because I started hearing voices and I didn’t know what was going on. But, [pause] it wasn’t nothing I couldn’t handle. I mean I was still in my right state of mind. I just didn’t know I was, I didn’t know no better. Now I know better about the voices and, I think they’re real. I mean I’m not hallucinating.

JULIE: When you hear the voices, they’re real.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: So you didn’t know any better. What do you know now that you didn’t know then?

ALISHA: I know that I’m actually hearing these voices and they are real.

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JULIE: What did you think then?

ALISHA: I didn’t know what to think. I mean I knew they were real then too, but I didn’t know how to react to them. I didn’t know how to separate the difference between a voice and real life. I know how to do that now. Like if a voice in my head told me that they were going to come pick me up and to get ready, I wouldn’t get ready.

JULIE: Do you still hear voices?

ALISHA: [nods]

JULIE: when do you hear voices?

ALISHA: Whenever I talk to ‘em. Or they talk to me.

JULIE: So have you heard any today?

ALISHA: I can’t remember.

JULIE: In the last week have you heard any.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Whose voices do you hear?

ALISHA: Uh, I hear my mom’s voice, uh. [pause] Anybody.

JULIE: Anybody?

ALISHA: Some people.

JULIE: People from your life?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: And what do they say to you? What does your mom say to you?

ALISHA: It used to be bad stuff when I was on uh, when I was on uh, Invega. She used to say bad stuff.

JULIE: Like what?

ALISHA: I can’t remember. But she don’t really say too much no more. I don’t really hear it too much no more like I used to. But some medications can make them bad.

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JULIE: Yeah. I’m wondering if you feel them at certain times, like maybe when you’re feeling a certain way you’re more likely to hear them.

ALISHA: Like at night or something.

JULIE: At night.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: You’re more likely to hear them at night?

ALISHA: Yeah, I tune em out until nighttime or something, I’m just laying there getting ready to go to sleep I can hear it. But I don’t really try to listen to voices too much.

JULIE: Do they say nice things or mean things?

ALISHA: Nice.

JULIE: Oh they’re saying nice things now.

ALISHA: They say nice and mean stuff sometimes. But lately it hadn’t been the same [mumbles] I mean just regular conversations.

JULIE: Like, “Hi, how are you doing?”

ALISHA: Not hi how are you doing, but just a regular conversation. Like what I’m going through that day or something.

JULIE: So they’ll comment on what you’re going through?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Like, “Oh it’s a tough day today?”

ALISHA: Like even a personal relationship.

JULIE: Like even a personal relation- so it’s like you have a personal relationship with them?

ALISHA: [nods]

JULIE: Does it feel like they understand you?

ALISHA: No.

JULIE: They don’t understand you.

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ALISHA: No.

JULIE: When you say personal relationship, what kind of personal relationship?

ALISHA: Like with this girl I caught myself liking, but I don’t think she likes me. And she’s the pretty type of girl. I could see myself living my life as man for her, but, I don’t want to do that.

JULIE: She’s, is she a patient here?

ALISHA: No, Beyonce.

JULIE: Beyonce, okay.

ALISHA: But I don’t want to live my life as a man for no one, so. Like I said, I think I’m the other type of lesbian.

JULIE: You feel like a woman in a woman’s body.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: You’re not like a man stuck in a woman’s body.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: You’re just a woman who likes women.

ALISHA: Yeah. One woman.

JULIE: One woman.

ALISHA: Yeah. The only one I’m attracted to.

JULIE: The only one you’re attracted to is…

ALISHA: Lexie.

JULIE: Lexie.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: I wonder why the voices seem to come around at night.

ALISHA: Because that’s when I tune them in.

JULIE: How do you feel at night?

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ALISHA: Sometimes I just be like, I’ll go to my room and listen to the voices or go talk to someone in my head, or. [pause]

JULIE: How do you decide to do that, what’s that like for you?

ALISHA: Something just comes over me. I get bored. And I want to talk to someone up there. [points to head]

JULIE: You want to talk to someone up there as opposed to out here? When you’re feeling bored would you want to talk to someone out here?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: So how come you talk to someone up here instead of out here?

ALISHA: Because they’re not around me. The person that I want to talk to.

JULIE: The one person, is there anyone in particular that you want to talk to?

ALISHA: No, not right now.

JULIE: So if I’m hearing you it’s sort of like, you want, you’re bored, you’d like to talk someone but there’s no one around to talk to.

ALISHA: No, not that it’s no one around to talk to me, it’s just that the person I want to talk to is not around me. Or they don’t answer the phone or something like that.

JULIE: By the person, is it someone specific?

ALISHA: No. I haven’t been feeling like talking to no one lately.

JULIE: Who have you felt like talking to in the past?

ALISHA: Uh, Beyonce.

JULIE: So since Beyonce isn’t around and you can’t reach her, you’d prefer to talk to someone in your head?

ALISHA: I talk to her in my head.

JULIE: Oh, okay. What are those conversations like?

ALISHA: They’re good. [pause] But I don’t think she understands the way Lexie do.

JULIE: What do you mean?

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ALISHA: I just don’t think, she understands me. Like, she’s with Jay-Z and everything. And Lexie really didn’t have no other girlfriends. And she let, Lexie let me know that she would leave the other girlfriends for me. You know. She like kind of put me first. Made me feel special.

JULIE: Not too many people have done that for you.

ALISHA: No. She made me feel good though. Lexie did. She uh, her and her friends, they made me feel special.

JULIE: They made you feel wanted.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: How did they do that?

ALISHA: By wanting me around and inviting me over to their house, and letting me spend the night. And, um, even though I had bladder problems they’d still let me spend the night at their house. And stuff like that and. Uh. When I would come around, all her other friends would leave and it would just be me and her. And, [pause]. She just made me feel special.

JULIE: When did you meet her?

ALISHA: Uh, when I was like six years old, seven years old. And we grew up together.

JULIE: So you were friends since you were really little.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: And when was the last time you saw her?

ALISHA: Uh, in Sheridan, like in 2004 maybe.

JULIE: And is that when she threatened to burn you?

ALISHA: No. No I think in Chicago was the last time I seen her.

JULIE: Oh, okay. When was that?

ALISHA: 2004-2005. Somewhere around there.

JULIE: You haven’t seen her in a while.

ALISHA: Yeah, I haven’t seen her in a while. And I got their phone number and their address, but they don’t answer the phone for me. Last time I called, Donna’s daughter answered the phone and, the phone kept hanging up. And every time I would call back, she would answer, but it would hang up again. And I wrote them, but they haven’t wrote me back.

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JULIE: That’s really hard.

ALISHA: Yeah. But I would love to see them and hear from them. I wouldn’t mind moving to Chicago.

JULIE: To be by her?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Um, you mentioned you had bladder issues?

ALISHA: Yeah, I used to pee in the bed. [laughs]

JULIE: How old were you when you did that?

ALISHA: I was like, like 12-13, 14.

JULIE: That’s pretty old to have that problem.

ALISHA: Yeah. I found out I had a bladder infection.

JULIE: Oh, is that why?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Oh dear. Well I realize that we’re out of time for today.

Second Interview with Alisha

JULIE: So I guess I’d um, ask about, who do you feel close to right now?

ALISHA: Who do I feel close to right now?

JULIE: Yeah.

ALISHA: To my family? Or friends? Or?

JULIE: Sure, whoev- we can go through each of them.

ALISHA: Um, [pause] family wise I feel close to my mom. Uh, friend wise, probably Beyonce.

JULIE: Beyonce,

ALISHA: Mm-hmmm.

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JULIE: Mm-hmmm. Okay. Um, and what happens when you feel close to someone?

ALISHA: What happens when I feel close?

JULIE: Yeah.

ALISHA: I just, try to be as nice as I can be to that person. [pause]

JULIE: That’s it? Is there more?

ALISHA: Um, [pause]

JULIE: No? Okay. How do you feel about yourself when you get close to someone, when you feel close to someone?

ALISHA: Uh, I feel kinda’ negative about myself because of my physical appearance. Um, I wish I had a better body.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

ALISHA: That’s, with my family and friends.

JULIE: That’s with your family too, you wish you had a better body?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay, how does your body affect your relationship with your family?

ALISHA: I’m just not comfortable.

JULIE: Yeah, okay. Do you think, w-, how do they react to your body do you think?

ALISHA: They don’t.

JULIE: Oh okay. You just don’t feel comfortable.

ALISHA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: okay. And with Beyonce?

ALISHA: Mmm

JULIE: Same thing you don’t,

ALISHA: Yeah, I don’t feel comfortable.

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JULIE: Can you say any more about that not feeling comfortable?

ALISHA: I just wish I had a better body, a better appearance. So I’m happy, she’s happy, everybody’s happier.

JULIE: So what would be different if you had a better appearance?

ALISHA: What would be different?

JULIE: Yeah.

ALISHA: I would be happy. She would be happy. Yeah.

JULIE: And your mom?

ALISHA: Yeah, my mom would be happier too.

JULIE: Okay. Um, what happens when you feel distant from people? When you feel disconnected?

ALISHA: That’s one of the reasons why, because I feel like my body is so much different from everybody else’s. It makes me kind of feel distant from people.

JULIE: Can you say more about that?

ALISHA: I’m just not happy with it.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

ALISHA: I’m not happy.

JULIE: Yeah. And when you say your body is different from everybody else’s, how is it different?

ALISHA: Everybody else have nice shapes and, look nice in their clothes and stuff like that.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. [pause] And so, aside from your body, what else happens when you feel distant from other people? Disconnected.

ALISHA: I feel lonely, um, tend to isolate. I don’t want to live. You know. [pause] I just don’t wanna’ live. Where I can go to a place where can’t nobody see me.

JULIE: You want to go to a place where can’t nobody see you?

ALISHA: Yeah. [tearful]

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JULIE: Here, let me get some tissues.

[Break]

JULIE: So you were saying you want to go to a place where nobody can see you.

ALISHA: Yeah. [pause]. I feel hurt, scared, and alone.

JULIE: Yeah. [pause] If you could go somewhere where nobody could see you, what would that be like?

ALISHA: It would be better.

JULIE: How would it be better?

ALISHA: Because I try to get my medical problems taken care of, but I don’t have no money. And I feel like that’s the only way I can get my medical problems taken care of, if I had some money.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. [pause] So when you think about being disconnected from other, it makes you think about feeling lonely and isolated, and-

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: wanting to not be here anymore.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: And there’s something about, if people couldn’t see you.

ALISHA: Yeah, cause I’m ashamed.

JULIE: What are you ashamed of?

ALISHA: My outer appearance.

JULIE: Oh. It’s so hard for you to have people see you.

ALISHA: Yeah. [pause]

JULIE: I wonder what happens for you when people are angry with you?

ALISHA: Makes me sad.

JULIE: Makes you sad? [pause] Can you say more about it?

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ALISHA: [pause] It makes me ashamed when people are mad at me, like I’m not good enough.

JULIE: You feel like you’re not good enough. How do you feel about the relationship when someone’s mad at you?

ALISHA: Try to make it better.

JULIE: So that’s what you try to do is make it better.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: And until you can make it better, how do you feel about it- the relationship?

ALISHA: I still feel good about it.

JULIE: What happens when you’re mad at someone?

ALISHA: I don’t get mad. [pause] When I’m mad at someone?

JULIE: Yeah.

ALISHA: I don’t get mad.

JULIE: How come?

ALISHA: I guess I’m just not angry type of person.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. Have you, can you-

ALISHA: Like when my mom, if I get mad at her, I don’t get mad at her either. No more. I used to.

JULIE: You used to?

ALISHA: Yeah. I don’t get mad at Beyonce either.

JULIE: Oh, you don’t get mad at Beyonce. You used to get mad at your mom.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: What happened when you’d get mad at her?

ALISHA: I would say mean things.

JULIE: Like what?

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ALISHA: [pause] I can’t remember.

JULIE: What would, what, how come you’d say mean things?

ALISHA: Cause she was saying mean things to me.

JULIE: What would she say to you?

ALISHA: I can’t remember. It just seemed like she was against me, instead of being there for me.

JULIE: What was that like for you, when she was against you instead of being there for you?

ALISHA: It was hard. [pause] But I know that she wants the best for me. I don’t get mad at her no more. It was the medication I was on, making me angry.

JULIE: Okay. Um, what happens when you feel sad?

ALISHA: I cry. [pause]

JULIE: How do you feel about yourself when you’re sad?

ALISHA: Like somebody doing me wrong or something.

JULIE: How do you feel about other people when you’re sad?

ALISHA: I feel okay about ‘em.

JULIE: Okay.

ALISHA: I don’t be angry at ‘em or nothing.

JULIE: You said when you feel said you might feel like people be doing you wrong.

ALISHA: Yeah, I just really focus on myself when I’m sad. And focus on why I’m sad.

JULIE: What might make you sad?

ALISHA: Me not getting my way.

JULIE: You said you don’t get mad at others when you’re sad though.

ALISHA: No.

JULIE: What would happen if you got mad?

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ALISHA: I don’t know. I used to hit, stuff like that, but I don’t do that no more.

JULIE: When was that going on?

ALISHA: Like, when I was like, twenty-two, twenty-three.

JULIE: What was going on when you’d hit?

ALISHA: I just had a lot of anger built up. [pause] But I don’t have that anger no more.

JULIE: But then you had a lot of anger built up?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: I wonder what made you so angry?

ALISHA: It was (what?) I was going through in my life.

JULIE: What kinds of things?

ALISHA: Bad relationships. My son not being obedient.

JULIE: Your what?

ALISHA: My son not being obedient. That was the only person I would hit was my son. I used to hit my brother too, but he did things to make me mad so, it wasn’t like I was hitting him for nothin’.

JULIE: mm-hmm. What did your brother do to make you mad?

ALISHA: Uh, just bothered me.

JULIE: What did he do to bother you?

ALISHA: I can’t remember. [pause] Come in my room and mess with me.

JULIE: Mess with you how?

ALISHA: I can’t remember.

JULIE: So he’d come into your room, you know that. And he would mess with you. Was that physically? Sexually?

ALISHA: Probably physically. Probably wasn’t even physically ‘cause I can’t remember him hitting me. I can’t remember why he was coming in my room. But I know I was being bothered by him.

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JULIE: Yeah. So he’d come into your room. Sounds like maybe it was sexually?

ALISHA: No, it wasn’t sexually.

JULIE: Oh, okay.

ALISHA: Probably trying to turn my radio down or something. I don’t know.

JULIE: Okay. [pause] So he would do that and you’d get angry.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: And then you’d hit him?

ALISHA: Yeah. [pause]

JULIE: And with your son.

ALISHA: Him not cleaning up after himself. Little things made me mad.

JULIE: So he wouldn’t clean up after himself and you’d get angry-

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: get mad.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: And so, b-, you’d feel so angry that you would hit him.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: What was that anger like?

ALISHA: It was bad. I was mean. Cause he was so young, he didn’t know no better.

JULIE: How old was he?

ALISHA: He was like, five, six.

JULIE: How did you feel about yourself when you were that angry?

ALISHA: Bad.

JULIE: Bad?

456

ALISHA: Yeah. I felt mean. But I knew it was something I couldn’t control. I would tell him that I was sorry that I did it. Told him I’d get help.

JULIE: You told him you’d get help?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: You said you couldn’t help it?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: What would happen?

ALISHA: I would just get mad and hit him. I wouldn’t beat him or anything, but I would hit him.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. What would happen to you when you were so mad that you would, couldn’t help it?

ALISHA: What do you mean, what would happen to me?

JULIE: Like, did you feel like you lost control, or?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: What was that like for you?

ALISHA: It was hard. Cause I would get so angry, and lose control. [pause] It wasn’t that bad though, because I felt at the time it was a part of disciplining. But I learned to discipline in other ways. I learned to control my anger. I learned not to get angry.

JULIE: How do you not get angry?

ALISHA: Um, do things that make me angry no more.

JULIE: What did you used to do that would make you angry?

ALISHA: Like being in promiscuous relationships that I didn’t want to be in.

JULIE: So you would be in them even though that made you angry?

ALISHA: Yeah. I didn’t want to be in them but I didn’t know I didn’t want to be in it.

JULIE: Oh. You’d be in them but you didn’t know you didn’t want to be in them.

ALISHA: Yeah.

457

JULIE: But it made you angry.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. [pause] Yeah. You said also that you had a lot of pent up anger, or built up anger from relationships. What else going on when you were that age?

ALISHA: Uh, just bad relationships. Yeah I wasn’t doing nothing else that made me mad.

JULIE: Just the bad relationships made you mad?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: And what were those bad relationships?

ALISHA: What were they?

JULIE: Yeah.

ALISHA: With guys that I really didn’t care too much about.

JULIE: What made the relationships bad?

ALISHA: Uh, just doing things I didn’t like doing. [pause] Not being there for my son like I should’ve been. [pause] Not having enough money. Being in bad environments.

JULIE: What kind of environments?

ALISHA: Just being around bad people. Drugs.

JULIE: It was a really bad situation. So you were in bad relationships in bad areas with bad people who were doing drugs.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Yeah. And the relationships were bad because you were doing things you didn’t want to do.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: How did they treat you?

ALISHA: Bad. They treated me with no respect.

JULIE: They didn’t treat you with respect? No?

458

ALISHA: No, I didn’t have respect for myself, so I didn’t, I didn’t expect them to have respect for me.

JULIE: So how would they not show respect for you?

ALISHA: Just treating me mean. Take advantage of me.

JULIE: How did they take advantage of you?

ALISHA: Just being there, and I didn’t want them there.

JULIE: To they’d be, they’d hang around when you didn’t want them there.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Did they physically or sexually

ALISHA: Yeah. Sexually abused. Not so much physical, just sexual. [pause]

JULIE: What did they do?

ALISHA: Just be mean.

JULIE: They’d be mean to you sexually? [pause] How many men where there?

ALISHA: A lot. I’ve slept with like 65 men in my life.

JULIE: Okay. What was the longest that the, that any relationship lasted?

ALISHA: Uh, like four years.

JULIE: Who was that?

ALISHA: My last boyfriend.

JULIE: Okay. How did he treat you?

ALISHA: Mean. He didn’t respect me either. He didn’t respect how I feel.

JULIE: And when did you date him?

ALISHA: Uh, we started dating in like, 2003. 2004.

JULIE: Okay. Um, I was wondering also about, your um, childhood, when, cause you said that you’re you were raised by your grandma. So when did you start living with her?

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ALISHA: Ever since I was born.

JULIE: Okay. And how come?

ALISHA: I don’t know.

JULIE: Cause usually children are raised by their moms unless something, something usually has to have to happen for them to be raised by another family member.

ALISHA: I don’t know. It’s something I can ask my mom I guess.

JULIE: She never explained?

ALISHA: No.

JULIE: So you were born and then immediately you went to go live with your grandma?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: What’s your earliest memory?

ALISHA: Uh, I was like two.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. And what was happening?

ALISHA: Uh I remember being sexually abused by a pastor. [pause]

JULIE: You were sexually abused by a pastor when you were 2? Where did it happen?

ALISHA: In church. [pause]

JULIE: How many times did it happen?

ALISHA: Seemed like a lot of times.

JULIE: A lot of times. What do you remember about it?

ALISHA: My grandma putting me in the office with him.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

ALISHA: And when I get ready to leave he would feel up my butt.

JULIE: He would feel up your butt. With his hands?

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ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: What did he say to you?

ALISHA: Nothing. Have a good day.

JULIE: And how did you feel when he did that?

ALISHA: I was numb. Didn’t have no feelings.

JULIE: Did you grandma know?

ALISHA: I don’t know.

JULIE: You don’t know if she knew.

ALISHA: I didn’t tell her.

JULIE: No. [pause] And so every time she’d put you in his office, what would she say? Why did she put you in his office?

ALISHA: I don’t know.

JULIE: What would she say before she put you in.

ALISHA: I can’t remember. [pause] “Go get some candy.” Cause he would give me candy.

JULIE: So you’d go in, he’d give you candy. And then, did he have sex with you?

ALISHA: No.

JULIE: Oh, okay. He would touch you?

ALISHA: Yeah, as I was leaving the office he would feel up my butt. [pause]

JULIE: And your grandma kept sending you in there? After the first time it happened I wonder how did you feel going back in there?

ALISHA: I didn’t have no feelings.

JULIE: When did it stop?

ALISHA: Uh, probably when I was like three or 4.

JULIE: How did it stop?

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ALISHA: She just quit sending me in there.

JULIE: Did you ever tell anyone about it?

ALISHA: No.

JULIE: How did you make sense out of it when you were younger?

ALISHA: I just ignored it.

JULIE: You just ignored it.

ALISHA: Yeah. Act like it didn’t exist.

JULIE: I’m so sorry that happened to you.

ALISHA: That’s okay. [pause]

JULIE: You’ve survived a lot.

ALISHA: yeah.

JULIE: Are there other experiences like that that happened to you when you were growing up?

ALISHA: Well, my uncle, he kind of made a move on me before too.

JULIE: How old were you?

ALISHA: Uh, probably about 9.

JULIE: What happened?

ALISHA: He just felt up my butt.

JULIE: Where were you?

ALISHA: At my house in the basement.

JULIE: It was just the two of you?

ALISHA: Probably.

JULIE: So he felt up your butt and then what happened?

ALISHA: I just walked away.

462

JULIE: Did he, come after you or anything?

ALISHA: No.

JULIE: Okay. Did anyone else know about it?

ALISHA: No.

JULIE: How did you feel when he did that?

ALISHA: Uh, probably felt bad, betrayed.

JULIE: Betrayed.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: What was your relationship with your uncle like?

ALISHA: It wasn’t good. It’s better nowadays.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

ALISHA: Like we talk on the phone and stuff like that.

JULIE: Has he ever talked to you about what happened?

ALISHA: No.

JULIE: What was your relationship like with him back then?

ALISHA: It wasn’t good. I mean, he was like, he was real quiet, I was real quiet. We didn’t say too much.

JULIE: How did you make sense out of what he did?

ALISHA: Just ignored it.

JULIE: Ignored it. That’s the only thing you could do with it was ignore it.

ALISHA: He didn’t know no better I guess. He had a problem.

JULIE: That’s how you understand it now? But back then all you could do was just ignore it, pretend it didn’t happen.

ALISHA: Yeah.

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JULIE: Yeah, that makes sense. [pause] Anything else in addition to your uncle?

ALISHA: [shakes head no]

JULIE: How old were you when you first started having sex with men?

ALISHA: Twelve.

JULIE: And the first boy you had sex with, how old was he?

ALISHA: He probably was like 16, 15 or 16.

JULIE: Oh, okay. And how did you end up having sex with him?

ALISHA: I caught myself having a crush on him. He, he had asked me to go down to one of his friend’s house. And I went over there and we just had sex.

JULIE: Did you want to have sex with him?

ALISHA: I didn’t know. I was just young. Didn’t know no better.

JULIE: Sorry, you were just young and?

ALISHA: Didn’t know no better.

JULIE: Didn’t know no better, I see. Mm-hmmm. Do you have any memories of your dad? From when you were little?

ALISHA: Uh, first time I seen my dad, I remember him a little bit when I was younger. Like, when I was first born or whatever. I could remember him a little bit being there. And then he left and I didn’t see him again till I was like 15 or 16.

JULIE: So he was there a little bit when you were very very young.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Just born.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: And then he was gone.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: And what about your mom. What are your earliest memories of your mom?

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ALISHA: When I was like, four, she would come around for uh, for the holidays.

JULIE: uh huh.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: So you would see her at what- Christmas?

ALISHA: Thanksgiving. Christmas.

JULIE: And what was that like seeing her when you were 4?

ALISHA: [pause] Can’t remember. It was all right I guess. [pause]

JULIE: How was she introduced to you?

ALISHA: I can’t remember.

JULIE: Oh, when. Did you know she was your mom?

ALISHA: [pause] Did I know she was my mom? Yeah, I knew she was my mom.

JULIE: So you knew your grandma was your grandma and your mom was your mom.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: How did you feel when she would leave after each holiday? [pause]

ALISHA: um, just numb.

JULIE: Numb. If you hadn’t felt numb I wonder how would you have felt?

ALISHA: Felt sad. Lonely, left out. [more tearful] Because she took care of my brother but she didn’t take care of me.

JULIE: So, your brother, she raised your brother but not you?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: How come?

ALISHA: I don’t know.

JULIE: Never explained that to you? [pause]

ALISHA: I guess that’s something I can ask her.

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JULIE: Something you can ask her, yeah. [pause] How did you feel when your dad left when you were very young?

ALISHA: Probably sad. [pause]

JULIE: Did they ever explain why he left?

ALISHA: Uh, I had a baby book and my mom had wrote in it “because I wasn’t dark enough.” He didn’t want anything to do with me because I wasn’t dark enough.

JULIE: Because you weren’t dark enough?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Did that make sense to you?

ALISHA: No.

JULIE: How did you feel about that?

ALISHA: Left out.

JULIE: Left out.

ALISHA: [blows nose] Excuse me.

JULIE: You’re fine.

ALISHA: I’m going to use up all your tissues.

JULIE: [laughs] That’s what they’re there for. [pause] I’m glad you can feel things now. So it said in your baby book that he left because you weren’t dark enough?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Does that make any sense to you now?

ALISHA: No, cause he still don’t do nothing for me. We talk on the phone but he don’t do nothing for me.

JULIE: Yeah. A lot of unanswered questions about your childhood.

ALISHA: Yeah.

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JULIE: And when you were, when your grandma was raising you was it just the two of you living together?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: And af- , so you started seeing your mother on holidays when you were four. And then you said you started to see her when, you started living with her when your grandma got sick.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: In between then, what was your contact with her like?

ALISHA: She would come around sometimes and it was all right I guess.

JULIE: What was it like when she would come around?

ALISHA: It was all right, kind of, I don’t know. The same I guess.

JULIE: The same?

ALISHA: I don’t remember.

JULIE: Would she talk to you?

ALISHA: No.

JULIE: Would she fuss with you? Fuss at you?

ALISHA: No.

JULIE: So she’d come around and she’d ignore you?

ALISHA: Yeah. (? A little bit)

JULIE: Did she acknowledge that you were there?

ALISHA: A little bit.

JULIE: A little bit. What was that like for you?

ALISHA: Hard.

JULIE: Yeah. What was hard about it?

ALISHA: Just not having a good mom. Not having a good relationship with her. [pause]

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JULIE: How are you feeling right now?

ALISHA: Sad.

JULIE: Yeah. You talked about a lot of difficult things today. It took a lot of courage for you to share that with me.

ALISHA: You’re welcome.

JULIE: Thank you.

Third Interview with Alisha

JULIE: So I was wondering, um, if you could tell me more about the voices that you’ve heard throughout your time of hearing voices. When was the first time you heard voices?

ALISHA: Um, the first time I heard voices was in like, 2000, 99 or 2000. I heard um, some voices.

JULIE: And what were they saying?

ALISHA: Um, uh, I can’t remember. I mean I told you about the guy, that was my first time hearing voices, around the first time hearing voices. The first voice I heard was his sister. And I can’t remember what she had said, but.

JULIE: What was your relationship with her like?

ALISHA: It was okay.

JULIE: Were you friends or?

ALISHA: No.

JULIE: Okay. What kind of interactions did you have with her?

ALISHA: None really.

JULIE: Okay. Um, and then you said the voices were uh saying, at one point voices were saying that that bad guy- her brother- was molesting your son?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Yeah. What were, whose voices were those?

ALISHA: Um, I cant remember.

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JULIE: Were they familiar?

ALISHA: No, I can’t remember.

JULIE: Okay. Is is-

ALISHA: I- I hear a voice of a guy and, um, I don’t know who he is. But, he says stuff like, he says stuff like, um, “One day we’re gonna transform.” And, uh, I’m gonna be a guy and my mom’s gonna be a guy, and my dad’s gonna be a girl. And.

JULIE: When do you hear his voice? This guy’s voice?

ALISHA: I hear it a lot.

JULIE: Okay.

ALISHA: I used to hear more but,

JULIE: When did you start hearing it?

ALISHA: Uh, when I first started hearing voices. That was one of the voices I heard.

JULIE: Oh, okay. Saying that you’re going to transform and uh, and do you still hear it occasionally?

ALISHA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: When’s the last time you heard it?

ALISHA: Could’ve been yesterday.

JULIE: Okay. And how do you feel when you hear that voice?

ALISHA: I feel alright.

JULIE: How do you feel about what he’s saying?

ALISHA: I feel alright.

JULIE: Can you tell me more about the idea of you changing- you and your mom changing into men and your dad changing into a woman?

ALISHA: Uh, not just us, but a lot of people.

JULIE: Like would I change into a man?

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ALISHA: I don’t know.

JULIE: Oh, okay. Does it talk about a lot of specific people, the voice?

ALISHA: People that are in my life.

JULIE: Oh, okay. So who else does it mention?

ALISHA: Like, my brothers and my sisters. My aunts and uncles.

JULIE: What would it be like if everyone changed?

ALISHA: Well everyone’s not changing, just some people.

JULIE: Yeah, if those people changed.

ALISHA: Uh, what would it be like?

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

ALISHA: It would be exciting.

JULIE: What would be exciting about it?

ALISHA: I wouldn’t mind being a man. Seem like everybody’d be happy. And my son too.

JULIE: He’d be happy if?

ALISHA: He changed into a girl.

JULIE: Really?

ALISHA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: What makes you say that?

ALISHA: Um, well the voices, when- when I – when he’s talking to me in my head, he says he wants to be a girl.

JULIE: When you son is talking to you in your head?

ALISHA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Okay. How often does he talk to you in your head?

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ALISHA: Not too much. Just every once in a while.

JULIE: And when did you start talking to him in your head?

ALISHA: Um, a long time ago.

JULIE: How old is he in your head?

ALISHA: He’s twenty.

JULIE: Ok, so he’s- so his age in your head corresponds to his age-

ALISHA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: outside your head.

ALISHA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Okay. Um, who else do you- so you hear- talk to your son and you talk to Beyonce, you talk to

ALISHA: My mom.

JULIE: Your mom. What do you talk about with your mom?

ALISHA: Uh, she basically wants for me to live my life as a man.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. So what does she say to you?

ALISHA: Uh, she just- she doesn’t say too much she’s just like reactions.

JULIE: Can you give me an example?

ALISHA: Um, like, if I do a certain thing or say a certain thing, she- I can feel her reaction.

JULIE: Can you remember a specific thing you did or said that?

ALISHA: Mm-mm.

JULIE: Okay. What kind of reaction does she have?

ALISHA: Like she wants me to live my life as a man.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. So what does that look like, can you run me through that?

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ALISHA: Uh, if I did something girly or something like that, she would- I could feel her reaction. Like she doesn’t like it.

JULIE: Okay. How do you know she doesn’t like it?

ALISHA: Cause I can feel her reaction, she just like, numbs up.

JULIE: She numbs up?

ALISHA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: What does- tell me more about that.

ALISHA: She just like, she pauses.

JULIE: She pauses and then?

ALISHA: Give me time to change my expression.

JULIE: And, so she cons- what is she doing that she pauses from?

ALISHA: Like, I can’t really describe it. Like if me and Beyonce is talking or something like that, and um, like I say I can’t be with you or something, she pauses. I can feel it.

JULIE: Who pauses?

ALISHA: My mom.

JULIE: So you’ll be talking to Beyonce and you’ll say, “I can’t be with you.” And your mom will pause. What has she been doing that she pauses from?

ALISHA: Just listening.

JULIE: Is it like she disappears?

ALISHA: No.

JULIE: Oh.

ALISHA: She doesn’t disappear. She’s just like, pauses up. She just like, it’s hard to explain.

JULIE: Yeah, I’m having trouble. Yeah. How someone pauses. I believe that it’s happening, I’m just trying to figure out what that’s like for someone to pause when listening.

ALISHA: She’s just like listening, then she’s just like, you know.

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JULIE: You took a breath like huh! Is that something she would do? Make some sort of a

ALISHA: No she wouldn’t make a noise, she would just pause up. I mean I can feel her, you know, like she’s breathing and everything and then she’s just like, listening. Sort of, type thing.

JULIE: So you can feel her breathing, and can you see her too?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay. So when you’re having the conversation with Beyonce, can you see Beyonce?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: What’s that like for you?

ALISHA: I like it.

JULIE: So you like it. Is it, can you help me understand more what the experience of talking to them and seeing them is like.

ALISHA: I mean, I can’t really see em seem, it’s just like an image, cause I can hear her voice and, stuff like that.

JULIE: So you hear the voice and there’s an image that goes with it?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: But it’s not like you’re seeing them?

ALISHA: Right.

JULIE: Okay. And when these conversations start and stop, what’s that like?

ALISHA: Well I really, we really don’t talk like we used to. But, I mean, cause I have, I mean, we talk, like I tell her I love her, whatever. If I see a picture of her I tell her I love her. But that’s about it. We don’t really talk as much as we used to.

JULIE: Beyonce doesn’t respond?

ALISHA: She does.

JULIE: Okay.

ALISHA: She says she loves me too.

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JULIE: And, so you’ll see a picture of her and you’ll tell her you love her and she’ll say, I love you too?

ALISHA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Ok, um, does she ever initiate the conversations?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: So what’s that like?

ALISHA: Um, it’s okay. She’ll just say something, like out of the blue sometimes.

JULIE: Out of the blue?

ALISHA: Yeah. [laughs] Just say, she’ll just say something like, just I don’t—just I mean we don’t really conversate conversate. You know, we just say little things. And that’s it.

JULIE: So she’ll, out of the blue, say something and then, what happens when the conversation is over?

ALISHA: It’s just over.

JULIE: Where does

ALISHA: Usually I just fall asleep or something like that.

JULIE: And where does she go, does she stay there, does she disappear? What happens after the conversation is over?

ALISHA: Uh, it’s just blank in my head. She’s not there no more. She’s still there, she can still probably hear me but, it’s not like, like now she- she probably can’t. I mean she probably can’t hear me now because I’m talking out loud. She probably can. I don’t know.

JULIE: She probably can?

ALISHA: Yeah, she probably can, I don’t know.

JULIE: But do you feel her present right now?

ALISHA: Mm-mm.

JULIE: Okay, so if, is it sort of like she’s here and then she’s gone?

ALISHA: Mm-hmmm.

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JULIE: Okay. And what’s it like for the other voices?

ALISHA: Same.

JULIE: They just come and go?

ALISHA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Okay. Um, so and so you’ve talked to your mom, you’ve talked to your son. You talked to Beyonce, and then there’s that, voice who tells you everyone’s gonna- a lot of people are going to switch, or change

ALISHA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: And, are there other voices.

ALISHA: Um, there a voice that come in like God sometimes.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. And what’s that like?

ALISHA: Strange.

JULIE: Yeah. How’s it strange?

ALISHA: Cause I really, I used to, I didn’t know about a higher power. And then, someone comes in like they’re God. You know like they have so much power and stuff.

JULIE: What is that God voice like?

ALISHA: It’s okay.

JULIE: You said it- like it has so much power.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: What kind of power?

ALISHA: Like power to do anything.

JULIE: And when did you start hearing that voice.

ALISHA: A long time ago.

JULIE: About how old were you?

ALISHA: Uh, this was like when I started hearing voices.

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JULIE: Ok, so back in 2000, 2001

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay. And is that voice, the God voice, still with you sometimes?

ALISHA: Yeah it will pop up sometimes, every once in a while. I only heard it like three times.

JULIE: Oh, okay. What did it say to you?

ALISHA: I can’t remember.

JULIE: Only three times though?

ALISHA: [nods]

JULIE: What else, what other voices?

ALISHA: Um, my dad, uh, I can hear anybody.

JULIE: What do you and your dad talk about, or what does he say to you?

ALISHA: Uh, I can’t remember.

JULIE: So what now which voices are there still?

ALISHA: Huh?

JULIE: Which voices do you still hear to this day?

ALISHA: Just who I described, my mom, my dad, my son, Beyonce, uh that guy – I don’t know what his name is. And, and God. And, that’s really about it.

JULIE: And how do you feel when you’re talking with them?

ALISHA: I feel okay.

JULIE: How do- so if you were to compare, what you feel talking to say someone who is not in your head?

ALISHA: The same.

JULIE: Ok, no different.

ALISHA: Mm-hmmm.

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JULIE: Do you feel any more or less comfortable talking to someone when they’re in your head versus outside?

ALISHA: [shakes head no]

JULIE: Okay. I know you’d mentioned that your appearance, you feel unhappy with that and you feel like that affects your relationships. Does it affect your relationship with them in your head?

ALISHA: No.

JULIE: So it affects them outside but not inside? Could you tell me more about that?

ALISHA: I mean, it’s- it’s like the same but, it’s – it’s the same.

JULIE: What’s the same?

ALISHA: I mean I’m more comfortable in my head than I am in real life.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. How long has that been that way for you?

ALISHA: Uh, I’ve always been uncomfortable with my appearance.

JULIE: As far back as you can remember?

ALISHA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Even when you were little?

ALISHA: Probably, cause I was overweight.

JULIE: Okay. Um, and the voice that was saying that the bad guy in your neighborhood was molesting your son. Which, whatever happened to that voice?

ALISHA: It’s still there. That’s that one guy.

JULIE: Oh, it’s that one guy who says we’re all going to transform and

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay. Um, has he said- so the transform talk that he talks about, you like that, right? You’re excited?

ALISHA: It doesn’t matter to me either way it goes. I mean, I could stay a woman or a man, but it’s just, like, with Beyonce there it’s like I’d change to a man.

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JULIE: With Beyonce you’d change to a man?

ALISHA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: You would change to a man?

ALISHA: Mm-hmmm. And I haven’t found a man that, that love me and that I talk to cause like I said, I can hear anybody’s voice in my head and, it can hear me, but there’s no man that I talk to. Or that I feel like loves me or anything like that.

JULIE: But there are women that you talk to.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: And those are

ALISHA: Beyonce, just Beyonce.

JULIE: Just Beyonce, okay. So when you imagine your future, do you see yourself as a man or a woman, or both or? What’s that like?

ALISHA: It’s like I know I’m gonna be a man. [laughs]

JULIE: You’re laughing. What are you laughing about?

ALISHA: I’m just happy.

JULIE: What are you happy about?

ALISHA: That something like that could happen.

JULIE: Something like?

ALISHA: Me changing to a man.

JULIE: Uh huh. How would that happen? You changing?

ALISHA: They said we was going to transform one day.

JULIE: Uh huh. And so if you transformed into a man one day. Would you stay a man, or do you think you might transform back again?

ALISHA: I would stay a man.

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JULIE: Uh huh. Okay. Um, and the voice that talked- that voice, that guy you don’t know his name, he talked about your son. Were there other more negative things or painful things he’s said to you?

ALISHA: Mm-mm.

JULIE: Other than that about your son? Do you have any idea why he would say that to you?

ALISHA: He wanted me to know.

JULIE: Was it really happening?

ALISHA: I don’t know.

JULIE: Was that bad guy still alive at the time?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay. Mm-hmmm.

ALISHA: It’s like I couldn’t connect. I couldn’t connect the real life with the head, with the- what was going on in my head. I didn’t want to believe it.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. You didn’t want to believe what the voice was saying?

ALISHA: [nods]

JULIE: Okay. And what was going on in real life, do you know?

ALISHA: [shakes head no]

JULIE: No.

ALISHA: I mean I knew where my son was at all the time and stuff like that. I mean I didn’t know all the time, but, I think he was dead after he said that he was- had molested my son. He had already died.

JULIE: So was it saying that he had done it in the past

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: or that he was doing it in the present. Okay, so the voice said he had done it while he was still alive.

ALISHA: Yeah.

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JULIE: So it was in the past. There was nothing you could’ve done about it.

ALISHA: Right.

JULIE: Okay. Did you talk to your son about it?

ALISHA: Mm-mm.

JULIE: Okay. So you still don’t know to this

ALISHA: I think I might’ve talked to him about it.

JULIE: You’re not sure?

ALISHA: I can’t remember.

JULIE: Okay. Seems like there’s a lot of stuff that’s hard for you to remember.

ALISHA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Have you ever noticed that?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: What do you make of that?

ALISHA: I don’t like it. Cause it’s like, something’s, I don’t know. It’s- it’s a lot of stuff I can’t remember. I mean I can do something and just forget.

JULIE: Um, do you have any idea why that happens?

ALISHA: [shakes head no]

JULIE: No. Any particular pattern to how it happens?

ALISHA: They say it, hypertension can cause memory loss.

JULIE: Oh, okay. So it could be related to that. How long have you been hypertensive?

ALISHA: Uh, I know I was hypertensive when I was pregnant with my son.

JULIE: Okay.

ALISHA: That was last- the first of me knowing about it.

JULIE: And so, but your memory issues go back to even when you were younger.

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ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: When you were younger did you have the same trouble with remembering things?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay. Ever since you can remember you’ve had trouble with memory?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Um, lets see. Um, you’ve talked about being numb a lot. What’s that like?

ALISHA: It’s a good and a bad thing. A good and bad. Cause I feel like sometimes it’s better if I don’t express myself and then sometimes I feel like, um, yeah, just sometimes I feel it’s better if I don’t have expression.

JULIE: When’s it better? What makes it better?

ALISHA: When is it better?

JULIE: Yeah.

ALISHA: Um, like, I mean I’m not a negative person or anything, I don’t, I don’t have, I mean, it was more back, um, when I was younger that I was numb. Now, it’s, I express myself better.

JULIE: So what was good about being numb when you were younger?

ALISHA: Uh, what was good about it? Um, nothing really.

JULIE: What was bad about it?

ALISHA: I didn’t express myself. I didn’t, I didn’t think when I should’ve been thinking. Used my brain.

JULIE: Can you tell me more about that?

ALISHA: It was just some stuff I wouldn’t have done if I wasn’t numb.

JULIE: What wouldn’t you have done?

ALISHA: Like I wouldn’t have been promiscuous, and um, I wouldn’t have been promiscuous.

JULIE: So how did that work? You were numb and then, you weren’t thinking and?

ALISHA: What do you mean, how did that work?

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JULIE: Well what was that like for you, so you were, I guess how was the numb and not- I don’t know. What,

ALISHA: I don’t like it.

JULIE: You don’t like?

ALISHA: I don’t like it. It’s like something, something’s wrong with my brain or something. But I take meds now and it’s better.

JULIE: So what was it like when there was something wrong with your brain?

ALISHA: It was bad because I did bad things.

JULIE: Yeah. And what did it feel like for you to have something wrong with your brain?

ALISHA: Bad.

JULIE: What was that bad feeling like?

ALISHA: Just, like, um, different. I felt different. Still do, cause something’s still wrong with my brain.

JULIE: Can you tell me more about that?

ALISHA: I don’t know if it’s part of my mental illness, or has something to do with me being high blood pressure or what. But, I don’t like it. I wish it was better.

JULIE: What does it feel like?

ALISHA: I don’t know.

JULIE: So there’s something wrong with your brain and you wish it was better but you don’t know.

ALISHA: What do you mean?

JULIE: Well I’m wondering, so if I were, if I were in your shoes, what would I be, what would, what does it feel like. Can you describe what it feels like to be in your shoes and have this thing wrong with your brain?

ALISHA: It’s not good.

JULIE: Yeah.

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ALISHA: A lot of confusion. Um, depressive thoughts. It’s just not good.

JULIE: What are you confused about?

ALISHA: Um, what am I confused about?

JULIE: Yeah.

ALISHA: Sexuality. Um,

JULIE: Is that it?

ALISHA: [nods]

JULIE: What’s confusing about your sexuality?

ALISHA: I don’t know. Because I appear like a woman, but other things are going on.

JULIE: What’s going on?

ALISHA: Uh, [laughs] I would rather live my life as a out, I would rather transform, in this life I wouldn’t – I really wouldn’t want to be a man. If we transform then that’s a different subject. That’s a different story.

JULIE: So outwardly you’re a woman, but you’d rather live as a man. But not in this life. Can you tell me more about the transform?

ALISHA: What do you want to know?

JULIE: Well you said if we transform that’s a different story. So what’s that story?

ALISHA: I mean if we transform then I wouldn’t have no choice but to be a man. It’s something that God made, or whatever- whoever made it and I wouldn’t have a choice but, I like being a woman too. But, it’s like I havne’t found the right man.

JULIE: So you wouldn’t want to choose to be a man. But if you were made a man against your- you know, if someone made you a man, that would be okay.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay. How come you wouldn’t want to choose to be a man?

ALISHA: Cause I like being a woman.

JULIE: That’s tough.

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ALISHA: mm-hmmm

JULIE: Kind of wanna be both.

ALISHA: It’s not that I kinda wanna be both it’s like I am a woman, so I have womanly traits, I guess you could say.

JULIE: Physical or or psychological- emotional what do you mean?

ALISHA: Physically and emotionally.

JULIE: Okay. You say so, I’m a woman I have womanly traits.

ALISHA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: But it’s confusing.

ALISHA: Yeah. [pause] [laughs]

JULIE: Is there more you were going to say about that?

ALISHA: I mean, it’s just hard. It’s hard. But lately I’ve been, I don’t know if it’s the medication or what, but I’ve been feeling more feminine. I- sometimes I feel like a man, sometimes I feel like a woman. Depends on my medication.

JULIE: So what’s it like when you feel like a woman?

ALISHA: I feel- I feel wanted. Cause guys make me feel wanted. But, at the same time I feel like I don’t want them. But I still feel like a woman. Maybe I just haven’t found the right guy.

JULIE: What would happen if you found the right guy?

ALISHA: I don’t know, I don’t. I don’t know. It could happen. Where is he? You know, I feel like there is no right guy.

JULIE: If there was, if you found the right guy, what would be different?

ALISHA: Not too much.

JULIE: So not too much, you said if I found the right guy, you said that several times like, sounds like something would be different if you found the right guy.

ALISHA: I mean, where’s he been, you know? I can hear all these people in my head but, no guy has popped up. And I could see myself being with Beyonce in this life. Because of that.

JULIE: Because no guy has popped up?

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ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Do you see yourself with Beyonce, how do you see yourself with Beyonce?

ALISHA: I could see myself marrying Beyonce. Spending the rest of my life with her.

JULIE: As a man or a woman?

ALISHA: I can’t see myself being a man in this life. Maybe just as friends. Maybe we’d be just friends or something. I don’t know.

JULIE: But if you married her?

ALISHA: That would probably have to happen- have to happen in the next life.

JULIE: How come?

ALISHA: Right now I just couldn’t see myself being a man, in this life, living my life as a man. I can’t see myself doing that.

JULIE: But in the next life maybe?

ALISHA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: And what about, you said sometimes you feel like a woman and sometimes you feel like a man.

ALISHA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: What’s it like when you feel like a man?

ALISHA: I have a sense of humor. Um, it’s only a little bit. Like I used to dress like a man sometimes. Wear man cloths, and, have a good sense of humor. And that’s all I can remember about it.

JULIE: And is it- what happens, so you either feel like one or the other, or?

ALISHA: Huh?

JULIE: You either feel like a woman or man? Is that how it works or?

ALISHA: Uh, no, I feel like both. A woman and man. But I wore man clothes and um, recently in the last couple years, I felt more like a man when I wear man cloths.

JULIE: What’s that like?

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ALISHA: I don’t like it.

JULIE: What don’t you like about it?

ALISHA: Because I’m a woman, and I still feel pretty and, I feel like, I feel like, I’m worth being a woman. I’m worth it. You know, just feel worthy.

JULIE: You feel worthy of being a woman.

ALISHA: Yeah. Cause I still even when I dress up, when I dress like a man- in man cloths, I still feel pretty and stuff like that.

JULIE: Okay. Um, when did you know that you were attracted to women?

ALISHA: Uh, when I met Beyonce.

JULIE: So when was that?

ALISHA: Well, it was just like it was going on in my head- in my mind, and um, I was trying to find a man to be with for the rest of my life. And then there was something was like, what about Beyonce, and I just been attracted to her ever since.

JULIE: And so when did that start?

ALISHA: Uh in like 2000, um, well I was attracted to another type of female, the uh, Lexie, remember I was tell you about her?

JULIE: Yeah.

ALISHA: And um, I- I don’t know if I was attracted to her or just because she was a woman, but I used to tell her how pretty she was and stuff like that, but, uh, I never thought I could be the same type of woman she was until I met Beyonce.

JULIE: What kind of a woman was Lexie?

ALISHA: She was like a- like the man in the relationship. And I was the woman. I felt real pretty with her.

JULIE: Uh huh.

ALISHA: But it’s like, it’s not meant for me and her to be together. Because I don’t spend no time with her.

JULIE: And she said she would cut you, or burn you- burn you.

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ALISHA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Yeah. But you don’t spend any time with her.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: So, when did you realize you were attracted to Lexie?

ALISHA: Uh, when I was coming up.

JULIE: So what age would that be like?

ALISHA: That was like, probably 16-17.

JULIE: So that’s when you realized you were attracted to her.

ALISHA: No, it was like, in I was- yeah like 16 or 17.

JULIE: Do you remember the moment when you realized you were attracted to her?

ALISHA: Uh, it was just a natural thing. It came natural.

JULIE: Over time?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: And, so before then you’d been with men. But you’d, you weren’t attracted to them or?

ALISHA: Mm-mm. I mean there’s some men that I think that are cute. But I just can’t see myself being with them.

JULIE: What’s it like when you imagine yourself with a guy?

ALISHA: Eh, I could see myself being with a man.

JULIE: So what do you see, what do you?

ALISHA: Just sex.

JULIE: Just sex? That’s all you see?

ALISHA: Uh, I mean that’s part of it but when I picture myself with a man, I mean, it’s just hard.

JULIE: What’s hard?

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ALISHA: It’s hard cause I don’t know, because ain’t no man been there for me.

JULIE: No man has ever been there for you?

ALISHA: I mean they have, but I’m talking like now, like in my mind. And now, they just mmmm-

JULIE: It’s just Beyonce.

ALISHA: [nods]

JULIE: So if a man popped into your mind, then maybe it’d be different?

ALISHA: Not really.

JULIE: Okay.

ALISHA: I mean like now, when I get out of here I was thinking about going and being with my ex-boyfriend. But that relationship wasn’t good. Why do I want to put myself back in that predicament? I don’t know.

JULIE: What wasn’t good about it?

ALISHA: I mean he was a nice guy and everything but, we had our flaws. And I shouldn’t be wanting to go back and be with him, but I do.

JULIE: I wonder why you want to go back and be with him.

ALISHA: Just to be with a man.

JULIE: So you’d like to be with a man.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: What about being with him or being with a man is appealing to you?

ALISHA: Being happy. Being with somebody.

JULIE: You’d be happy if you were with somebody?

ALISHA: Yeah. Happier.

JULIE: But, you shouldn’t want to go back to the relationship with him?

ALISHA: I mean it was an okay relationship, but how we broke we up- some girl had called my phone and said that he had asked her to marry him. And he had put a ring on her finger and stuff.

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He said it wasn’t true. He said he just- she just used his phone and listened to his voice messages and stuff like that and got my phone number. But, I don’t know.

JULIE: You don’t know if he’d actually proposed to another woman?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Had he been cheating on you?

ALISHA: He said he wasn’t, I mean, he spent all his time with me. I don’t see, unless he was at work- and he said he worked with the girl that used his phone. So, I don’t know.

JULIE: So there was that. Did you believe him?

ALISHA: I broke up with him. We’ve been separated for like, almost four years.

JULIE: What was good about the relationship?

ALISHA: Um, what was good about it? I mean he cooked, he cleaned, um, he spent money on me, spent money on my son. He gave my mom money. Spent time with me.

JULIE: Were you attracted to him?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: How did he make you feel?

ALISHA: He made me cry a couple times. Can’t remember how he made me cry. But, you know.

JULIE: You don’t know how he made you cry, but he did?

ALISHA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: So it sounds like you were attract- I guess I misheard you before, I thought you’d said you’d never been attracted to men, but you were attracted to him.

ALISHA: I mean, yeah I was attracted to him. That was like my first real serious relationship. But, I just, I wish I could get my medical problems taken care of so I could be more attractive.

JULIE: That was your first serious relationship. And it sounds like he was attracted to you- you know, the way you looked.

ALISHA: He was cute.

JULIE: He was cute and it sounds like he was attracted to you.

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ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: So it sounds like, how did your appearance affect that relationship?

ALISHA: I just felt ashamed when it came to having sex or something like that. I mean I didn’t feel ash- he didn’t make me feel ashamed or anything. He made me feel comfortable, it’s just, with myself I just didn’t feel right.

JULIE: What do you mean?

ALISHA: I just, don’t like my appearance.

JULIE: Um, has anyone commented on your appearance before?

ALISHA: No.

JULIE: Okay. Um, I remember you said your mom used to call you names when you were younger.

ALISHA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: What kind of names did she call you?

ALISHA: Like verbal abusive names and, um, just verbal abusive.

JULIE: Like what?

ALISHA: She would say “sow,” and “you just a sow.” Stuff like that.

JULIE: A sow?

ALISHA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: As in-

ALISHA: An animal.

JULIE: How did you feel when she said that?

ALISHA: How’d I feel? I don’t know.

JULIE: What do you remember?

ALISHA: Um, I remember arguing back with her. Saying, “No I’m not. Leave me alone.” And stuff like that.

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JULIE: And what do you remember about how you felt when you’d argue back with her and when she’d call you names?

ALISHA: Huh?

JULIE: What do you remember about how you’d feel when she’d call you names and then when you’d argue back with her?

ALISHA: I felt good arguing back defending myself.

JULIE: And when she’d call you names?

ALISHA: I felt bad.

JULIE: How old were you when she’d call you names?

ALISHA: Uh like 12, 11, 12, 13.

JULIE: Does your grandma ever call you names?

ALISHA: [shakes head no]

JULIE: Okay. Does your mom’s voice ever call you names now?

ALISHA: Mm-mm.

JULIE: Um, wondering about, so you grew up with Lexie and Donna.

ALISHA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Been friends since you were like 6 maybe?

ALISHA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: What was that like growing up with them?

ALISHA: It was fun. I mean they made me feel wanted, they made me feel loved, and stuff like that.

JULIE: How did they do that?

ALISHA: By wanting me around.

JULIE: What are some specific things

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ALISHA: Complementing me on my clothes, and just wanting me around. Asking me to come over and. Cause I used to isolate myself a lot but they brought me out of it a little bit. They brought me out of it.

JULIE: Tell me-

ALISHA: Just by talking to me and not giving up on me.

JULIE: Had other people given up on you? What do you mean by giving up on you?

ALISHA: I mean, not really giving up on me, but just, they just talked to me, when I needed to be talked to.

JULIE: When did you need to be talked to?

ALISHA: Um, when I was like, 16, they just made me feel comfortable.

JULIE: What was going on at 16?

ALISHA: Uh, I was having some issues with my mom abusing me. Physically abusing me.

JULIE: What would she do?

ALISHA: She would just hit me and stuff like that.

JULIE: Hit you.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: And what kind of issues were you having with it?

ALISHA: It was making me feel not wanted.

JULIE: And so they would talk to you.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: And you said you would isolate?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: When did you start isolating?

ALISHA: Just as long as I can remember. Even when I stayed with my grandma, going to school.

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JULIE: Can you tell me more about the isolating?

ALISHA: I don’t know why I did it. [tearful] I guess I felt unwanted. Because of my appearance and stuff like that. And my mom not being around.

JULIE: So what did the isolating look like?

ALISHA: What did it look like?

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. What did you do to isolate?

ALISHA: I just kept quiet.

JULIE: You kept quiet.

ALISHA: Yeah because my dad wasn’t around too.

JULIE: You felt unwanted.

ALISHA: Yeah. And Lexie and Donna was like my second family.

JULIE: So ever since you can remember, you would isolate? You wouldn’t- you’d keep quiet.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: What else would you do to isolate?

ALISHA: Stay back from the crowd.

JULIE: At school or where?

ALISHA: Everywhere. I just kept quiet a lot. I didn’t say too much.

JULIE: What would happen when you did say something?

ALISHA: I felt like I would get abused or something.

JULIE: Who would abuse you?

ALISHA: My mother.

JULIE: You said you started isolating even when you were younger living with your grandmother. I wonder what, and you said you’d keep quiet then too. I wonder what you were worried about then by keeping quiet.

ALISHA: I don’t know.

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JULIE: What happened when you spoke up then?

ALISHA: I don’t know. Nothing.

JULIE: What else would you do to isolate?

ALISHA: That’s it.

JULIE: How did you isolate at home?

ALISHA: Just staying in my room all the time.

JULIE: By yourself?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: And would your- would you eat meals together?

ALISHA: No. I mean we would eat at the same time. But everybody ate in a different spot.

JULIE: Where would you eat?

ALISHA: In my room.

JULIE: What was that like?

ALISHA: It was hard.

JULIE: And at school, how did you isolate at school?

ALISHA: Just kept quiet and stayed back from the crowd.

JULIE: Were Lexie and Donna your only friends?

ALISHA: No.

JULIE: So you had other friends. How did you interact with them?

ALISHA: We’d talk on the phone and stuff like that. I had one other friend. Just one other friend. And she was related to Donna and Lexie as like their cousin.

JULIE: So they were all like your second family.

ALISHA: Yeah. She named my son too.

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JULIE: Wow. Who did?

ALISHA: Kim. Her name was Kim.

JULIE: So she named your son. And then you lost them all. You lost contact with them, in what was it- like 10 years ago?

ALISHA: Uh, yeah about 10 years ago. I went to go see ‘em though after I moved to Middletown. I went to Chicago and we talked on the phone a few times. But that’s it.

JULIE: Yeah, when you went to visit them, that’s when Lexie said she would burn you.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Yeah. What was that like, losing your second family?

ALISHA: It’s hard.

JULIE: Is that before or after you started hearing voices?

ALISHA: After.

JULIE: Okay. How did they react when you got- when you started hearing voices and having those difficulties?

ALISHA: I don’t think they still don’t know.

JULIE: They never knew?

ALISHA: No. That I heard voices?

JULIE: Yeah.

ALISHA: No.

JULIE: How come they didn’t know?

ALISHA: Cause I didn’t tell ‘em. I didn’t tell no one. My mom don’t even know.

JULIE: Who knows that you’ve heard voices?

ALISHA: The system.

JULIE: The system. So no one in your family knows and none of your friends know?

ALISHA: No.

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JULIE: Okay. But your mom knew you were having some troubles. What did Lexie and then know about your psychological difficulties?

ALISHA: Not too much, cause I didn’t tell them too much.

JULIE: Where were they when you were having trouble?

ALISHA: They were around.

JULIE: They were? How come they- what kind of support did they offer you?

ALISHA: None.

JULIE: How come?

ALISHA: I mean they were there for me. When we stayed in Sheridan they were there for me, but right before I left it felt like they turned their back on me.

JULIE: They turned their back on you? How’d they do that?

ALISHA: Just wasn’t supportive like they used to be.

JULIE: What changed?

ALISHA: I don’t know. Maybe they knew I was hearing voices. I don’t know. They turned their back on me. I felt a negative vibe.

JULIE: What kind of a negative vibe?

ALISHA: Like something wasn’t right.

JULIE: So you felt that and then they weren’t there for you the same way?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Did they say anything?

ALISHA: [shakes head no]

JULIE: So is there anything you can point to that changed?

ALISHA: [shakes head no]

JULIE: And what else did you notice in the way they interacted with you that was different?

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ALISHA: I just felt a negative vibe. I can’t- I mean, I can’t describe it.

JULIE: When did it start?

ALISHA: Right before I left.

JULIE: Sheridan?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Why did you leave Sheridan? I forget.

ALISHA: My mom moved.

JULIE: Oh okay. And you were how old when left there?

ALISHA: Twenty-four.

JULIE: Twenty-four. So you felt the negative vibe from them before you moved or after?

ALISHA: Before. Like right when I started hearing voices.

JULIE: So you started feeling the negative vibe and hearing voices right around the same time.

ALISHA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: And I’m trying to remember- sorry I can’t rememeber, when were you first put on meds and stuff like that?

ALISHA: In 2001.

JULIE: In Sheridan?

ALISHA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: So you started having difficulties, you were there for a few years and then the first time you started hearing voices was- no you’d heard voices in 2001?

ALISHA: Mm-hmmm. I first started hearing voices in like 2000.

JULIE: And then you started getting medicated in 2001.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay. Because you were having, you were believing, you were asking the president for money and things like that. And you were having trouble taking care of your son.

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ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Your mom took him. And where were they back in 2001? In 2000?

ALISHA: They were in Sheridan. They had um, I had got homeless. Like I was sitting on a bench at the train station and they had pulled up and asked me if I wanted to come stay with them. And I told them no.

JULIE: How come.

ALISHA: I don’t know. Cause I didn’t want- I didn’t want. I wanted to do it all on my own. I had wrote the president and asked him to send me some money and stuff and I thought he was going to send me some. And I was waiting on him to send me some.

JULIE: And you didn’t want-

ALISHA: I didn’t want to stay with nobody. [tearful] I wanted my own place.

JULIE: How come?

ALISHA: I just did.

JULIE: What would it’ve been like to stay with them?

ALISHA: It’ve been okay.

JULIE: But you really didn’t want to.

ALISHA: No.

JULIE: What made it so important for you to have your own place?

ALISHA: I’d have been stable.

JULIE: What about having your own place would’ve made you more stable?

ALISHA: Cause I’d- I’d have been more comfortable in my own place.

JULIE: What would’ve made you more comfortable in your own place versus staying with them or someone?

ALISHA: I don’t know.

JULIE: So they knew that you were homeless.

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ALISHA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: They offered to help and you said no.

ALISHA: Yeah. I just felt like everybody was against me because I was hearing voices and the voices was negative at the time. Everybody was negative.

JULIE: Everybody the voices, or everybody- everybody?

ALISHA: The voices. And it seemed like the people outside of me was negative too.

JULIE: Negative how?

ALISHA: They just weren’t- they just weren’t my friends. It seemed like I was getting into it with everybody.

JULIE: What were you getting into it over?

ALISHA: I don’t know.

JULIE: Did you get into it with Lexie?

ALISHA: No.

JULIE: Or Donna?

ALISHA: No, but they- but I- they had told me they were gonna- in my mind they had told me they were gonna come pick me up to get ready. Cause we was going to go out. And they told me to get ready. And I got ready and stuff, but they didn’t show up. And it’s like they were laughing and stuff.

JULIE: Laughing at you?

ALISHA: [nods]

JULIE: For what?

ALISHA: Cause I had got dressed and they had told me that in my mind.

JULIE: Did they laugh at you in your mind or

ALISHA: Yeah. In my mind.

JULIE: Did you ever tell them about that?

ALISHA: No.

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JULIE: So they, when did your, so your relationship with them changed just before you left.

ALISHA: [nods]

JULIE: Okay. And so after you were homeless you got hospitalized?

ALISHA: [nods]

JULIE: What did they know about your being hospitalized?

ALISHA: I don’t know what they knew. I didn’t tell them too much cause I didn’t talk to ‘em.

JULIE: Did you go a while without seeing them?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: How long?

ALISHA: Like a couple months. A few months. Cause I had got put in a group home and when I got out of the group home I was staying in a hotel and then I moved to Middletown.

JULIE: With your mom.

ALISHA: Yeah and I hadn’t seen ‘em that whole time.

JULIE: How come you didn’t see ‘em?

ALISHA: I don’t know. Maybe cause they found out I slept with Donna’s baby-daddy or something.

JULIE: Oh you did?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Would she have been upset about that?

ALISHA: Probably.

JULIE: When did you sleep with him?

ALISHA: Like in 2099 or something like 1999.

JULIE: Was he already her baby-daddy?

ALISHA: Yeah.

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JULIE: When you slept with him did you think about how it might make her feel?

ALISHA: No.

JULIE: How did you decide to sleep with him?

ALISHA: Huh?

JULIE: How did you decide to sleep with him?

ALISHA: It just happened. He came over, he used to come over all the time- him and his friend Darren, they used to come over to my house all the time. And we never did nothing, I never thought about doing nothing with him. And then they came over one time and Dar had left and then, me and Jay just did it. We didn’t even talk about it.

JULIE: So it went from hanging out to just doing it?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Did you ever talk about it?

ALISHA: [shakes head no]

JULIE: Have you ever heard your friends’ voices, Lexie or Donna, in your head?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: You mentioned that they had told you to get ready. Have you heard them at other times?

ALISHA: [nods]

JULIE: When do you hear them?

ALISHA: When I talk to ‘em.

JULIE: When do you decide to talk to them?

ALISHA: When I’m thinking about them.

JULIE: What do you talk about with them?

ALISHA: Me and Lexie being together.

JULIE: And how does that conversation go?

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ALISHA: It goes good, but it- it just drifts off. And I just quit talking to ‘em.

JULIE: So can you tell me sort of how that goes, so you start it up and you say “hi” or?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: And what do you say to Lexie?

ALISHA: Uh, it’s kind of hard to fig- put into words what I say in my mind in real life.

JULIE: What makes it hard?

ALISHA: It’s just it goes blank.

JULIE: What goes blank?

ALISHA: My mind.

JULIE: When I ask about it, it goes blank?

ALISHA: (About) what we talk about in my mind

JULIE: Oh, okay.

ALISHA: It’s hard to put out in real life

JULIE: Okay. So you have a general sense, but it’s hard to specifically remember what-

ALISHA: I can say it in my mind, but I can’t say it in real life

JULIE: You could tell me in your mind, but you couldn’t tell me in real life?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Oh, okay. Okay. Um, and, do you- so when you talk with people in your head, it is usually people that you’re not talking to in real life a lot?

ALISHA: Yeah. I mean I talk to my mom a lot, but we don’t talk that much in my mind a lot.

JULIE: Okay. Um, and I was wondering about, if you could tell me about a specific time about when you were angry at your mom? Can you think of one?

ALISHA: When I was angry with my mom in mind, or in real life?

JULIE: How about one of each? That would be interesting to hear about, yeah.

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ALISHA: Uh, in my mind she was saying- I was on some medication and I think that had something to do with it. I don’t know, because when I stopped taking the medication, it just went away, but- I said, “I wish she was dead.” And um, she just made me mad. She was just being real angry- real mean towards me.

JULIE: Picking at you? Fussing at you?

ALISHA: Yeah, picking at me.

JULIE: What was she picking at?

ALISHA: Uh, I can’t remember.

JULIE: And so, how did you feel when you were angry at her in your mind?

ALISHA: I felt angry towards her. I just, didn’t want her to be mom. Didn’t want her to live.

JULIE: How did you feel about yourself when you were angry at her in your mind?

ALISHA: I felt bad. I told her I was sorry.

JULIE: You felt bad about yourself?

ALISHA: Yeah. I didn’t want to hurt myself or anything, but, I told her I was sorry.

JULIE: And while- but that was- was that while you were mad that you felt sorry? Or maybe after you felt mad?

ALISHA: Probably both.

JULIE: Okay. Um, and then can you think of a specific time when you were angry with your mom outside of your head- your mind?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: When was that?

ALISHA: When I had went off my meds. She was um, she had some money of mine, cause she was my payee. And I told her I’d push her down the stairs.

JULIE: So she had your money and

ALISHA: She didn’t want to give it to me.

JULIE: And how did you feel?

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ALISHA: I was angry.

JULIE: Did you hurt her?

ALISHA: No. I wouldn’t hurt her (really?)

JULIE: But you wanted to push her down the stairs?

ALISHA: I told I would. But I wouldn’t.

JULIE: Um, is there anything else it would be important for me to know about, to understand you?

ALISHA: Mm-mm.

JULIE: Anything else you can tell about when you first started having difficulties?

ALISHA: Difficulties in what?

JULIE: Psychological difficulties?

ALISHA: It just, I started hearing voices.

JULIE: It started with you hearing voices?

ALISHA: [nods]

JULIE: And it started with the voice of that guy, the bad guy in your neighborhood and his sister?

ALISHA: [nods]

JULIE: Who else- what other voices were there when it first started? Any others?

ALISHA: Just that guy, and um, it was uh, um, where (…) my ID, my mom had worked at a halfway house. And my ID had came up missing. And in my mind they were saying a guy- the name of the house was Robert House. In my mind they was saying that the guy that stole my ID was named Robert Baby. And I called the police and told them that he had stole my ID. And I told them that it was in my mind. That I was hearing that his name was Robert Baby. And um, just the same people ever since.

JULIE: Do you still hear that guy from your neighborhood?

ALISHA: No.

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JULIE: Oh, okay. And um, then so when did you start hearing the other voices, like your mom and, the guy who would talk about the transforming and god?

ALISHA: I’ve just been hearing them all ever since.

JULIE: Um, so you’d lost your ID?

ALISHA: [nods]

JULIE: So, you lived with your grandma up until age 12 or 11.

ALISHA: Like nine- like eight. Seven or eight.

JULIE: Seven or eight- that’s when you started to live with your mom.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Ok, and then you lived with your mom from ages seven or eight until-

ALISHA: 18

JULIE: And then when you were 18?

ALISHA: I’d gotten my own apartment.

JULIE: Ok, and you lived in your own apartment until?

ALISHA: 24

JULIE: Ok, and that was, when you started hearing the voices?

ALISHA: [nods]

JULIE: But what happened, how did you lose your apartment?

ALISHA: I couldn’t afford my rent. And then I couldn’t afford the utilities. I didn’t have to pay no rent. But I couldn’t afford the utilities.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. Were you working?

ALISHA: No, I was trying to get on social security. I was trying to see what was wrong with me. And they kept turning me down. I kept telling them something was wrong with me, and they kept turning me down.

JULIE: When did you start thinking that something was wrong with you?

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ALISHA: When I couldn’t hold a job. I didn’t think it was something psychologically, I thought it was something like a learning disability or something.

JULIE: What happened with your- what was the first job you had?

ALISHA: At McDonalds.

JULIE: When you were 18 did you start working?

ALISHA: No I started working when I was like, 15 or 16.

JULIE: Oh, okay. And so you worked at McDonalds, and then where did you work?

ALISHA: Uh, telecommunications.

JULIE: And so, when did you have trouble holding down a job?

ALISHA: The whole way through.

JULIE: What would happen?

ALISHA: I got fired from McDonalds because the drawer came up short. And then I got- I got fired from the telecommunications because I couldn’t read the stuff fast enough and, all my jobs I got fired from. Except for my last job. And I quit that one. Cause I was hearing voices.

JULIE: So you had trouble holding down jobs before you started hearing voices.

ALISHA: [nods]

JULIE: And so, when you were 24 and you couldn’t- you lost your apartment, what- what had caused you to lose your job just around then? What was going on then?

ALISHA: I started hearing voices.

JULIE: Okay, and then you couldn’t hold down a job? How did they interfere with you holding down a job?

ALISHA: Cause the lady that we grew up with, my mom grew up with (?and stuff) I was hearing her voice and she was saying some real negative stuff towards me. And it hurt my feelings and I was crying at work. And I just quit. Because she worked there with me.

JULIE: So the woman worked there with you, but you also heard her voice?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: What was she saying to you

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ALISHA: She just- I can’t remember what she was saying. She was just saying some real negative stuff. [crying]

JULIE: I can see, even just talking about it, it’s affecting you.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Yeah. So you were crying at work? So you started hearing her voice.

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: So you, quit your job?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: And then what happened?

ALISHA: I was writing the president and sending him. Cause I had filed a lawsuit, and it had turned out my lawsuit said I had to get my own lawyer.

JULIE: Who were you suing?

ALISHA: Um, Days Inn.

JULIE: Is that where you were working?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Oh, okay. What were you suing them for?

ALISHA: Because they had fired me for no reason. After I had- they had told me I had to clean 18 rooms and then they fired me.

JULIE: So that, was that, where were you working when you started hearing that women’s voice?

ALISHA: At a factory.

JULIE: So you were suing Days Inn.

ALISHA: Yeah. I was suing the Days Inn and um, they had wrote me and told me I had to get my own lawyer. So I was president, telling him I couldn’t afford my own lawyer, could he just send me some money?

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. And then you got evicted, or what?

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ALISHA: Yeah, I got evicted.

JULIE: How long did you live on the streets?

ALISHA: For a few days.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm, and then you got picked up?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: And then your mom came and your aunt, right?

ALISHA: My mom.

JULIE: Your mom.

ALISHA: My mom came and picked my son up.

JULIE: Before or after you were living on the streets?

ALISHA: Before.

JULIE: Okay, so she took him. And then how did you end up, where did you go when you were on the streets?

ALISHA: Slept at parks and stuff like that. Hospital. Police station.

JULIE: And then you got hospitalized? For how long?

ALISHA: Bout a month.

JULIE: Okay. And then when was the next time you were hospitalized?

ALISHA: 2005, 2004, 2005.

JULIE: Okay. So it was in 2001 that you were first hospitalized?

ALISHA: [nods]

JULIE: Okay. How long were you hearing the voices before you ended up getting hospitalized.

ALISHA: About a year. Six months to a year.

JULIE: So were you getting by for a while while hearing them and then you had to quit your job, and then you got?

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ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay. Um, so then after you were released from the hospital, where did you go?

ALISHA: To a group home.

JULIE: How long were you there?

ALISHA: For a few months.

JULIE: And then where did you go?

ALISHA: To a hotel.

JULIE: How long were you there?

ALISHA: For about two months. A month.

JULIE: And then, what were you doing while you were living in the hotel?

ALISHA: Nothing. Just watching TV.

JULIE: By yourself?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay. And then, you moved with your mom?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: And you moved in with her?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: And so then, how long did you live with her in Middletown?

ALISHA: Bout a year and a half.

JULIE: And then what happened?

ALISHA: And then I got my own place. I got sick again because I wasn’t taking my medication. And uh, I had went to a hotel and like, I got lucky. And I found (an apartment like it). And I moved into my own apartment.

JULIE: That’s when you moved out from your mom’s?

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ALISHA: After I had went to the hotel.

JULIE: So you lived with your mom, moved to the hotel, moved into your own place. How long were you in your own place?

ALISHA: For about 6 months.

JULIE: And then what happened?

ALISHA: I moved to another apartment and I was there and then I got put in the hospital.

JULIE: Was that this time?

ALISHA: No, last time. In 2005, 2004, something like that.

JULIE: Ok, is that when you quit taking your meds?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay. So you were with your mom, then you, and you were doing okay. You got your own place. And then you quit taking your meds and got hospitalized. How long were you in the hospital then?

ALISHA: Uh, for three months.

JULIE: And then where did you go?

ALISHA: Uh, went to a group home and moved back with my mom. And then got my own place again (?) with my mom for about two years.

JULIE: So you had your own place with your mom then again for 2 years?

ALISHA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: And then.

ALISHA: I got my own place.

JULIE: Again, uh huh. And then what happened?

ALISHA: I quit taking my medication again and – back in the hospital.

JULIE: And that’s- brings you up to here?

ALISHA: Yeah.

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JULIE: Okay. And when you were out on your own during those times were you working, or were you on-?

ALISHA: No.

JULIE: Disability of some sort?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: So how would you spend your time?

ALISHA: Just, at my mom’s house, or at home, or somewhere shopping or something.

JULIE: And when you were, did you see people?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Who would you see?

ALISHA: People at the bus stops, or, I had a friend I met in Middletown, named Kayla. I’d hang out with her. Sometimes we’d go to Walmart or to the mall or something.

JULIE: Uh huh. So it was her, your mom, and your son.

ALISHA: And my grandbaby.

JULIE: And your grandbaby. Anyone else in your life at that point?

ALISHA: Uh, yeah. Jenna.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. Was she a friend?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay. What was it like when you would live with your mom for those periods of time?

ALISHA: It was good. I mean we argued a little bit. I had a boyfriend too. I stayed with him for about a year back and forth from him to my mom’s- for about a year. But it was okay. It was alright.

JULIE: So, had she changed, in terms of fussing at you?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: When did she stop fussing at you?

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ALISHA: Uh, when I was like 18. She stopped- she stopped abusing me when I was like, 16 or something like that. And then, uh, she still fusses a little bit.

JULIE: Why did she stop abusing you?

ALISHA: Uh, I can remember I told her I’d burn her house down if she didn’t quit putting her hands on me.

JULIE: And did she listen to that?

ALISHA: Yeah.

JULIE: So she would hit you?

ALISHA: [nods]

JULIE: What else- would she do anything else?

ALISHA: [shakes head no]

JULIE: Well I think we’ve covered everything. Thank you so much for participating…

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Appendix I

Transcripts of Interviews with Michael

[“Mm-hmmm,” indicates yes or agreement. “Mm-mm,” indicates no or disagreement.]

First Interview with Michael

JULIE: Um so I thought maybe we could start with how you ended up in Woodside State?

MICHAEL: Um, from a suicide attempt. I ah, took a bunch of pills and was trying to kill myself and I was found by, ah, person that called the ambulance. And I woke up in the ER, I mean intensive care unit. And the put me in the psychiatric unit and then my superior of Community Care in Dansville came and told me that I’d be going to Woodside and that’s how I ended up here.

JULIE: Oh ok. Was that the first time you’d ever tried to kill yourself?

MICHAEL: No.

JULIE: Oh, ok. And what lead up to you wanting to kill yourself or trying to kill yourself?

MICHAEL: I’ve always had problems, even when I was a kid, with trying to kill myself so. I don’t know where my problem came from, but I always had problems in that area. Dealing with posttraumatic distress and stuff. Being schizophrenic and being depressed. One day I’ll be doing fine, I’ll do my ADL’s and I’ll shave and then for a couple of days I’ll let my beard get scabby, you know and I’ll still take a shower but I don’t shave like I should. And then the next day I’m fine I’ll shave, so I don’t know.

JULIE: When did all your difficulties start?

MICHAEL: At age three I climbed the highest toy they had at the playground and I jumped off, so I you know and at age three I had my first major surgery. I was born with what you call a soft palate. That’s where bones in your neck weren’t all there and they went in and took out my tonsils and repaired my throat and um, just ah, from there, lead into something else, something else, something else. I’m age 33 now, so. I like to eat lemons and salt a lot and I ate them a lot a lot and it rotted out my teeth. And so now I have no teeth. Stupid lemons. [laughs] Um, so, yeah, that’s a put back, because it’s been two years since I had my teeth pulled and I just kinda feel like I’m not (presented?) like a reproductive citizen because I have no teeth and people who don’t have teeth can’t have relationships and such and such. But, I went and had my dentures made, and they don’t fit right, so even though I spent $1100 on dentures, I don’t wear them because they don’t fit right.

JULIE: Oh no. You said that people without teeth can’t have relationships.

MICHAEL: Yeah, they can, you just gotta’ find somebody that it don’t bug.

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JULIE: Has it been hard for you without having teeth, it sounds like.

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: So at age three you climbed up on the tallest thing and you tried to kill yourself.

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: What was going on when you were three years old?

MICHAEL: I don’t know. I just, I was never normal. My mom told me I was never normal I just, I don’t even think I knew what was suicide was at that age, I just did it. I mean, to be doing it.

JULIE: I wonder if you were trying to escape from something.

MICHAEL: [pause] I don’t know, can we take a break?

[Break]

MICHAEL: Basically I’ve had problems ever since I was little and they didn’t go away they got worse.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

MICHAEL: I’ve been in the hospital three times now. I’ve been in the hospital down where I lived. And doesn’t seem to get any better. And to this day I have thoughts of suicide, but you know I haven’t acted on one in a long time. It’s my anniversary of not acting on one is coming around and I’m pretty sure I’ll act on it.

JULIE: You will act on it?

MICHAEL: [nods]

JULIE: You’re going to try to kill yourself?

MICHAEL: [nods]

JULIE: When is that?

MICHAEL: Pretty soon. Nothing seems to be goin for, nothing seems to be going my way, so.

JULIE: Okay.

MICHAEL: I know it won’t be today or this month or next month, I don’t know.

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JULIE: Next month maybe?

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay. Have you told anyone about this?

MICHAEL: Not really.

JULIE: Okay. Well, I don’t want you to kill yourself. I’m really glad you shared this with me. Um, now who should we tell so that people know and can keep you safe?

MICHAEL: Well, I’m not in any danger as of soon.

JULIE: Okay.

MICHAEL: I’m just saying that my anniversary is coming up and I haven’t missed an anniversary without an attempt.

JULIE: Oh. What’s the anniversary of?

MICHAEL: Um, just, middle of summer and, being locked up and being depressed and not having a lot going for me is gonna be like the trigger.

JULIE: Uh huh.

MICHAEL: But, I think with where I’m at would probably stop me from doing it, because I’m not on the street like usually. So I think where I’m at now, I can get help and I probably won’t act on it. But, soon as I get out of the hospital, and then I get depressed and I’m not where I can get help I’ll probably act on it again.

JULIE: Oh, okay. So it sounds like you need to do some things in your life to make it more meaningful so that, you won’t feel like killing yourself. Um, but when you say anniversary, is it an anniversary of a specific event that happened?

MICHAEL: It’s not a specific day or event or month, it’s just how I feel.

JULIE: Okay, yeah. Mm-hmm. I was wondering, when was the first time you were ever hospitalized?

MICHAEL: When I was 12.

JULIE: Okay, what happened then?

MICHAEL: I was in a place called Community Mental Health, where they keep children under age 18, just that, attempt suicide and have problems with uh, rules and stuff. And I was in until I was 15.

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JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

MICHAEL: And I went to stay with my sister and then I went to this place, that place, this place, that place, and just, all around and,

JULIE: You’ve been in and out of places almost your whole life?

MICHAEL: Yeah, homes, different addresses and different hospitals. I’ve done some scary things and I’ve seen some scary things, so. Yeah. My life is pretty full of scary stuff.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

MICHAEL: And then my case worker Janet is working on something for me to turn my mood around. I recently found out that Recovery Services in Dansville ripped me off $1400. And that kinda got me depressed. I’m feeling like, nothing’s goin my way.

JULIE: They wrote you? Ripped you?

MICHAEL: They ripped me off one thousand four hundred dollars.

JULIE: Oh no. I’m sorry to hear that.

MICHAEL: I made Woodside State my payee and they sent my social security check here but they didn’t send my savings account. They’re waiting until I got a big bill from being here to send my savings account. And then instead of sending it to me, they put it with the bill and told them to pay that.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

MICHAEL: So that’s how I got ripped off $1400. Because that money should’ve went to my savings account here, so I can um, to I will be able to, um, go shopping at Wal-Mart, get my level up and look forward to getting my level up so I can go shopping at Wal-Mart. Now, I don’t have that. The only thing I have to look forward to is my mom and sister coming to visit me.

JULIE: Mmm. When are they coming?

MICHAEL: They come every 4th of the month.

JULIE: Oh that’s nice. Um, so you have a sister, is she older or younger than you?

MICHAEL: Older.

JULIE: Okay. Is she your only sibling?

MICHAEL: No, I have four sisters and two brothers.

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JULIE: Oh wow, that’s a lot.

MICHAEL: Not by the same guy though.

JULIE: How many of them are full siblings?

MICHAEL: I’m not for sure.

JULIE: So where do you fall in there?

MICHAEL: I’m the, fifth child.

JULIE: Okay.

MICHAEL: Out of seven.

JULIE: And so, who raised you?

MICHAEL: Um, my mom and other people.

JULIE: Okay. Other people? Like who?

MICHAEL: Just people that they send me to.

JULIE: Oh, foster people or things like that?

MICHAEL: Yeah, something like that.

JULIE: Group homes?

MICHAEL: [nods]

JULIE: What’s your mom like?

MICHAEL: She’s getting up there in age and she’s not all that healthy and, she has problems getting her bills paid. I think her hot water tank went out on her and I was going to give her some money to get it fixed but they ripped me off my money. So, I’m going to call the lady that’s in charge of the ACT team and I’m going to tell her about being, how they ripped me off. And see if she won’t get them to reimburse me my $1400.

JULIE: Yeah.

MICHAEL: And try to do it the right way and I’m going to try not to commit suicide.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

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MICHAEL: I’m going to try to get going in my treatment planning and probably get out of here by August. That’s my plan anyways.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. Yeah. And your sister?

MICHAEL: What?

JULIE: You said your sister comes to, is she’s going to come visit too?

MICHAEL: Yeah, we’ll have McDonalds.

JULIE: Uh huh.

MICHAEL: They come every 4th of the month and we have McDonalds and, they do the visit, and…

JULIE: Uh-huh, and are you close to your sister?

MICHAEL: Mm-hmmm. I’m close to all my sibilings.

JULIE: Okay.

MICHAEL: I didn’t say that right. I’m close to all my ss-

JULIE: Siblings?

MICHAEL: Siblings. [laughs]

JULIE: Uh-huh. You got it! Um, do they come visit you?

MICHAEL: Mm-hmmm, some of them do.

JULIE: What was it like growing up?

MICHAEL: Fast-paced. It was always fast-paced for me.

JULIE: Uh-huh. Can you tell me a little more about what it was like to have everything be fast- paced?

MICHAEL: Just constantly on the go. Constantly working, on the go, moving from one place to another, and making people mad at me.

JULIE: You made people mad at you?

MICHAEL: I really wasn’t a rule-seeker, I really didn’t abide by the rules.

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JULIE: Oh, okay.

MICHAEL: I’m lucky I ain’t in prison right now.

JULIE: What do you think that was about, not seeking the rules?

MICHAEL: I just didn’t want to ob-obey them.

JULIE: Uh-huh.

MICHAEL: I thought I knew everything and I was above the law, which I was because I didn’t get caught. But I always end up having to spend long-term time somewhere, so really I didn’t get away with nothing. I just didn’t have to spend time in a rough rough place.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

MICHAEL: But I’ve been locked up one third of my life, so, I mean I really didn’t escape from being locked up, I just, it just, locked up in a different formality.

JULIE: Yeah. You said you made people mad at you. Who was mad at you?

MICHAEL: Just people, friends, family members, people that (knew?) how I was. I think they all knew that I had problems, but yet, they all had reasons to be mad too, because I either screwed ‘em over, or stole something from them, or said something about ‘em, or beat up somebody that they liked.

JULIE: And when you say that you had problems, what sort of, how do you understand your problems?

MICHAEL: Um, how do I understand my problems?

JULIE: Yeah.

MICHAEL: This person has got too much on his plate at all times. Somebody that the more he gets off his plate, the more it adds to it, so he just became somebody that doesn’t deal with what’s on his plate so there ain’t new ones. If he leaves the same old garbage on the plate, will he, he don’t have to deal with the new problems. He can just keep reminding himself about the old problems.

JULIE: Yeah, I’m gathering from what you’re saying about the problems and the same-old garbage on the plate and, what you said earlier about seeing a lot of scary things that you’ve had to deal with a lot in your life.

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MICHAEL: Yeah and I had a boy and she remarried and, eight years later, she decided to get back with me. And she came to visit me this last fourth, a week after, uh, Easter, which was what- two weeks ago?

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

MICHAEL: She came to visit me and she was calling me every day. And she brought me a picture of my boy. And then she quit calling. We was supposed to gotten back together and she quit calling for some reason and, I don’t know what that reason is. I called my sister, cause my sister knows her and tell her that she needs to call me so that I can find out what’s going on. And I haven’t heard back from nobody yet.

JULIE: That sounds really hard.

MICHAEL: His name’s Anthony, he’s eight. I seen him up till where he was um, four, I didn’t see him for four years. I didn’t see her for four years either and then, I called up her mom and her step-dad. Which I got their number. And I, they said, well, somebody wants to meet you. Anthony is his name, wants to meet you. And, I started talking to Diane, which is my baby momma’s mom. And she said do you want to get back together (?and all this). We started writing for a week and a half. And then she just quit calling, so I quit writing her. And, didn’t get to see my son or nothing. But I got to send him a basketball though.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

MICHAEL: So it was nice being able to give him a gift, even though we didn’t get to meet and I have no idea when I’ll see her again or talk to her again. It might be another eight years.

JULIE: That would be really tough to not know and not be able to see your son.

MICHAEL: Can we take a break so I can get a pop?

[Break]

MICHAEL: First we need to make a bond that I’m not going to hurt myself.

JULIE: Okay.

MICHAEL: If you want to write it up real quick, I’ll sign it. Just put on there, um, what is it called, like a promissory note?

JULIE: A no-suicide contract?

MICHAEL: Yeah. A no-suicide contract.

JULIE: Well actually, I was going to say that maybe we could agree to tell,

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MICHAEL: Staff if I have problems

JULIE: Yeah

MICHAEL: Okay, because talking to you is going to dig up old feelings and it’s already had. When I was going to get my pop I was like, “gee, I hope she doesn’t think I’m going to commit suicide soon!” [laughs] I’m just, what I meant by that is if my luck doesn’t change, I probably will attempt suicide again because it’s in my history. I mean

JULIE: Okay.

MICHAEL: I’ve had suicide, like I said my first suicide (idea?) was when I was three.

JULIE: Yeah.

MICHAEL: And I’m 33 now, and um, it has probably been over a half-dozen suicide attempts between now and then. So, most likely if my luck doesn’t change, there will be another. It’s just the way it goes, I mean. I don’t like it.

JULIE: It sounds like when things get really tough for you,

MICHAEL: Well, nothing nothing’s going my way. I lost all my money, my girl’s not calling me anymore, I’m not going to be able to see my son. Um, I can’t go shopping. I’m stuck here on this unit until next week. And you know, and it’s like, well, my luck’s gotta change sooner or later or else I don’t see myself doing what I need to do.

JULIE: Yeah. Who should we tell that you, if things don’t get better you might try to kill yourself.

MICHAEL: I will go to Sheila, the lady I went to to get the pop. She’s more understanding.

JULIE: Okay. And what about your therapist.

MICHAEL: Um, what is his name? Uh, I forgot his name.

JULIE: Oh, okay.

MICHAEL: Tall, mustache.

JULIE: With a beard?

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: Well, there’s two psychologists with beards one is Joe and the other is Tom. Is it Joe or Tom?

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MICHAEL: Do they both look alike?

JULIE: One’s older and has a big white beard.

MICHAEL: No.

JULIE: One’s younger and has a, is blond,

MICHAEL: Yeah, him.

JULIE: That’s Tom.

MICHAEL: Tom yeah. He comes and sees me on Tuesdays.

JULIE: Oh, okay.

MICHAEL: He was supposed to see me today, but I think he’s seeing another patient.

JULIE: Oh, okay, um. Well, maybe we should let him know that.

MICHAEL: Me and him talk about stuff that

JULIE: Okay.

MICHAEL: Um, the first time I talked to him, after he left, the same week that, that when the week is ending up, I end up getting strapped down because I punched the bubble three times.

JULIE: Oh, mm-hmmm. So you talk about things that bring up

MICHAEL: And then I got off, I was doing better and better and then I um, was talking to some patients about because I escaped from this unit three times. All three different times, three different ways, and I was talking to some people on this unit about how I did it and it got turned into, I was trying to escape. That’s why I’m on UO now, I mean OU, unit observation whatever UO. And I come off May the 2nd which is coming up.

JULIE: Okay.

MICHAEL: And I want to start my classes and I’m going to start working to get out of here, to become a citizen again.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

MICHAEL: But you know, it’s kinda’ hard knowing that I’m not saving any money. None of my money is being saved.

JULIE: Yeah.

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MICHAEL: You know, I’m getting $60 a month to spend, and I get 15 of that a week. And by the time you buy five or six pops, that’s pretty much all your money.

JULIE: Yeah.

MICHAEL: And um, you know how I don’t see coming out from here going back into society without my money being saved, how am I supposed to make it? You know, how am I supposed to get a place? How am I supposed to get what I need in my place?

JULIE: Well, I know that can be really concerning. Usually they, I mean they don’t turn people out onto the streets, so they’ll have a placement set up for you of some sort, whether it’s an apartment or a group home or-

MICHAEL: Well, as soon as I get out, the first month I’ll have $700.

JULIE: Okay.

MICHAEL: Because my check is $700 a month. So I’ll have $700 to get me an apartment and to get, you know TV and some cable, and some food in the ice box. You know what I mean, and then I’ll have to live under my means for a couple months so that I can save up money.

JULIE: Um,

MICHAEL: I just won’t go out as much, like I usually do.

JULIE: Oh okay. So, going back to your history. Um, what do you remember from when you were three years old?

MICHAEL: Um, [pause] I don’t think it’s a memory, I just know about. I don’t know what caused it or what, the feeling that I get inside is like a (gray? Brave?) feeling, it’s like, well, and to describe it, the um, person that I told recently I told ‘em that the feeling of life after suicide is more better than the day to day feelings that a normal person gets. Like after you attempt suicide and you live through it, the feeling of life is greater. And it’s just, then the feeling of same-old normal stuff.

JULIE: So after you’ve tried to kill yourself, life feels more,

MICHAEL: I guess more brighter, it’s more, like I got a new body, you know to live through.

JULIE: A new body to live through?

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: You feel like a new person?

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MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: So you remember when you were three, feeling that way?

MICHAEL: Mm-hmmm. And all the times I’ve attempted suicide, I’ve, my liver took a hit once because I took a bunch of outdated Tylenol. And I had to go in and out of the hospital a couple of days. But all half-dozen times I committed suicide I never got hurt-hurt. Like never really had a consequence of doing it.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

MICHAEL: They told me once that my liver took a hit, but liver regenerates. So,

JULIE: Okay. Um, so, I’m wondering, you mentioned that you’ve seen a lot of scary things, I wonder what some of those scary things are.

MICHAEL: A lot of blood and guts.

JULIE: uh-huh. Whose blood and guts?

MICHAEL: Well my mom has taken back and forth on the city bus, to uh, special classes because I didn’t talk until I was seven because of my throat thing. And we got hit head-on by a guy that had a seizure. Head-on, hit the bus head on, and there was a lot of blood and stuff all because the guy that hit us head-on, car ripped in half and his body parts were lying here and there. And my mom’s ankle got broke and she got like, $60,000. And I got $5,000 and we moved up here to Dansville. But then we moved back to Kansas City like six, seven years later and, just, different things. I’ve seen people stab themselves. I’ve seen people, my friend had a on-line service called ____ and I’ve seen some stuff on there that was pretty gory.

JULIE: You’ve seen people stab themselves?

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: Who stabbed themselves?

MICHAEL: People in the hospital where I was at. Glenbrook hospital, Kansas City.

JULIE: How old were you when you saw that?

MICHAEL: Eighteen or so.

JULIE: That must have been pretty upsetting.

MICHAEL: Yeah, it was. I’ve seen it again over here once. Well actually three or four times over here. A patient stabbed themself with pens.

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JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

MICHAEL: So you know what time it is? [laughs]

JULIE: Mm-mm. Well we started at around, we’ve been going for about an hour.

MICHAEL: How do you keep your teeth so white?

JULIE: I brush them, I just brush them

MICHAEL: [laughs]

JULIE: We can um, I know I’m asking you difficult questions. Is it hard to

MICHAEL: Can we take like a 20 minute break and come back?

JULIE: Sure.

[Break]

MICHAEL: Drug of choice, well, my uncle and me, which I lived with my uncle for about six years, from age 12 to age 18. Bout six years. And he used to wake me up in the morning and get me stoned on weed and then he’d get shitty at me and beat me up. And uh, when I was 12 years old I was going to school and it was time for lunch and it was pizza day. And I didn’t want to wait in line, so I took off running towards the cafeteria and I fell and hit the marble floor and knocked out my front tooth.

JULIE: Oh.

MICHAEL: I cracked it right up the gum line. And I had to go home and my uncle said, “here, hit this.” That’s one of the first times of getting high. He said it will help you with the pain. And I hit the joint, that’s like what it was, it was a joint, and the room started spinning. [laughs] And uh, it’s not funny but, the rooms, and my pain went away and the next day I went to a dentist and they did a root canal, which was very painful.

JULIE: Yeah.

MICHAEL: And uh, anyways, so I started, my uncle started getting me high every day, and so marijuana became my drug of choice.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

MICHAEL: And I’ve been clean since last Thanksgiving. So I have some clean time under my belt. Will I go back to using? I don’t know. Something inside says (?go) and something inside says I won’t. I, I just don’t know. It soothes me, it helps me deal with my problems.

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JULIE: Mm-hmmm. Helps you deal with your problems?

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: How does it help?

MICHAEL: It just relaxes me, it doesn’t make me feel uptight. I’ve been using for a long time too though, ever since I was 12.

JULIE: Yeah, you’ve had problems for a long time.

MICHAEL: [nods]

JULIE: You mentioned in there that your uncle used to beat you up.

MICHAEL: Oh yeah, used to torture me, physically, mentally. Not sexually though, but thank god. But mentally and physically, until a point it where it got to where I could beat him up and then he didn’t want nothing to do with me anymore and I moved on.

JULIE: Oh. So you were living with him and he was torturing you.

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: If you’re able to, could you tell me a little more about what happened?

MICHAEL: He would just wake me up, wake me up and be mad at me and holler and cuss and scream. And I was working for Little Caesar’s prep cook and I would work all night and he’d wake me up first thing in the morning hollering, cussing, screaming, wantin’ to fight and, and, to where it got to a point where I would beat him up, and then he didn’t want me to live with him no more.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. So he would holler and cuss at you. Would he call you names?

MICHAEL: Yeah, ever since I was twelve to age 18. He would hit me, holler, cuss, scream, point guns at me.

JULIE: Did he threaten to kill you?

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: That must have been scary.

MICHAEL: [nods]

JULIE: Yeah.

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MICHAEL: And then, I moved back with my mom, and he didn’t like that. And he came over there with a gun when she was gone, pointing it around. And I told him, I said, “just shoot. Why are you being a coward about it? Shoot.” And he did and he went back home, and I told my mom about what he did. And I guess somebody called the cops on him over it and they told him the next time he’d go to jail, and so he didn’t come back, but.

JULIE: So he shot at you?

MICHAEL: No.

JULIE: Oh.

MICHAEL: Someone called the cops on him and reported it and they went over there and talked to him about it.

JULIE: Oh okay.

MICHAEL: So he didn’t come back with the gun no more.

JULIE: Okay. Wow. Why’d you end up living with him at age 12?

MICHAEL: It was just one of the places I ended up.

JULIE: But you, you wouldn’t, they didn’t place you back with your mom?

MICHAEL: Yeah, I went back with my mom.

JULIE: But I’m wondering from age 12 to 18 they had you with him instead of your mom.

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: Do you know why they did that?

MICHAEL: [shakes head no]

JULIE: No.

MICHAEL: I kinda’ picture my mom, just a woman that was trying to find the right man to be with and never could. And, never had to this day. [laughs] And she was more worried about that then what was going on with her kids. But she’ll do anything in the world for me now. I mean, definitely got a better relationship with her since I’ve grown up than I had when I was a kid. I mean I put her through hell and I know I did. But, that was my payback, you know I end up somewhere where I had to go through hell because I put her through hell. So. But.

JULIE: It sounds like she wasn’t there for you when you were younger.

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MICHAEL: No. But we have a (good?) relationship now so.

JULIE: That’s good. What happened to the rest of your siblings?

MICHAEL: They got scattered out. I have a sister that lives in Tennessee. I have a sister that lives in Arkansas. I have a sister that lives in Dansville. That’s four and then I have two brothers that live in Dansville.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. And when you were younger, did they get sent to live different places also?

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay. Was your mom using and drugs or alcohol?

MICHAEL: No.

JULIE: Oh no. She just couldn’t take care of you all?

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay.

MICHAEL: She went back to school and got her GED.

JULIE: Uh huh. It must have been pretty bad if they took you away from her.

MICHAEL: They didn’t, it was all volunteer.

JULIE: Oh.

MICHAEL: My aunt and uncle finally went and got custody of me, but they didn’t have it after 18 cause I was an adult.

JULIE: Did your aunt know about what your uncle was doing?

MICHAEL: He was doing that to, his son and her, so.

JULIE: Oh, ok.

MICHAEL: They’re still together, I mean I guess everybody forgave everybody. I don’t know.

JULIE: And when he’d physically abuse you, what did he do?

MICHAEL: Just hit me, and holler and cuss and point guns. Sometimes he would take, he’d take spiders that he’d found, spiders, and let ‘em bite me.

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JULIE: Oh.

MICHAEL: And then I had to go to the hospital and get venom put in me. [laughs] A friend of mine. [waves] Just saying hi.

JULIE: Oh, okay.

MICHAEL: He was just saying hey. I have friends on both units because I was on that unit for five months, or two to three months and then I was on this unit for two to three months, now.

JULIE: Yeah, we could talk about friends and who are you close to these days?

MICHAEL: Well, my mom, my sister, my niece, my brother, um, my mom, my brothers and sisters and my friends.

JULIE: Do you feel like they understand you?

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. Do you feel like you can share things with them?

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: What do you share with them?

MICHAEL: How I’m feeling. What’s going on. Stuff.

JULIE: And when you were growing up, what were your friends like?

MICHAEL: Um, friends, ah, were there for me, and it’s not all been bad. There’s been some good parts to it. You know, I’ve been ah, I've been low and poor and I’ve been rich and high. I’ve rode out in limousines before. I’ve, my sister’s best friends with Jennifer on Sugarland. So, I went up there, visited Sugarland. I’ve been married, I’ve had a good relationship. I’ve had bad relationships. I mean, that’s why I said it’s been fast-paced for me. I mean, the slowest it ever gets is when I’m in a hospital somewhere. It’s not, once I’m out in the real world it’s fast paced, you know, and I’ll lose my belly first thing. And then I’ll go back down to 120, 125. Because I’ll, I like to walk and I like to ride bikes. I don’t like to drive, unless it’s real far, I won’t drive. I’d rather ride a bike or walk.

JULIE: Yeah.

MICHAEL: I mean I had a real nice car and I sold it just because I wasn’t using it. In Dansville you could walk from one side of town to the other side within an hour.

JULIE: Okay.

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MICHAEL: So unless I was going out of town, I didn’t need a car. So I actually sold my nice car because I didn’t need it. I like to walk and ride bikes. Keeps you in shape.

JULIE: Yeah. Fitness is important to you.

MICHAEL: And also I can lift um, 255 pounds with my legs.

JULIE: Wow.

MICHAEL: In the gym they got down there. In the gym.

JULIE: Yeah. Um, I was wondering, you’ve said you’ve had a lot of different struggles with, like depression and schizophrenia and, what do you mean by schizophrenia?

MICHAEL: Well, at age 16, I was working with my dad. And I was prep-cook at Walker Brothers Pancake House, Midwest expressway, Kansas City- busiest corner in the world besides New York. Um, what’s that New York, they have that little corner they call,

JULIE: I’m not sure.

MICHAEL: Uh,

JULIE: Times Square?

MICHAEL: Times Square.

JULIE: Okay.

MICHAEL: Anyways there’s Times Square and then there’s Midwest expressway. And why I say it’s the busiest, because you know how Kansas is in the middle of the United States, right?

JULIE: Okay.

MICHAEL: So it meets right there.

JULIE: It’s the center.

MICHAEL: And it was a pancake house. But it was a restaurant, makes pancakes, chicken, eggs whatever you wanted, you could go in and order. I was prep cook and my dad was doing dishwashing. And prep-cook had to change the hot grease. And um, they had, they had to change the hot grease. And I had a lighter to light the ovens. To put the grease on top of the oven, for it to get as hot as it’s 425 Fahrenheit. It’s got to be four hundred degrees, 24 Fahrenheit. And I put the lighter back in my pocket and I was pouring the uh, fresh grease into the new, to a little square pan. And my lighter fell outta’ my pocket and fell down into the hot grease. Well I tell my dad, I say, “Dad, my lighter’s in the hot grease and it’s swelling up like a basketball.” He’s like,

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“grab the thongs and get it out.” And I went to grab the, he was over there, and I went to grab the, lighter and it blew up on me.

JULIE: Oh gosh.

MICHAEL: And this is the, see the scar?

JULIE: Ouch, yeah, I see.

MICHAEL: But I was burnt all over. And I woke up three days later in the hospital intensive care. And it was dark and my face was all swollen and it was just terrible because I went through a lot of pain and stuff.

JULIE: Yeah.

MICHAEL: My dad, I was living with my dad and my grandma, and my dad went home and told my grandma. Which she was really sick, my grandma was, she was sick. And she was 75 years old, she was just staying alive barely. She was on oxygen. My dad told my grandma that he, that what happened to me. And my grandma told my dad that she didn’t feel like she wanted to live any longer because of what happened to me. And cause she knew I was in the hospital hurt real bad. And she died two days later. And then my dad was in a car wreck the same day she died. He was on his way to get her birth certificate, to bring back. So we could get her buried. And he got hit, broadside by a car, and then he got a settlement, like three, four months later he got it. I was still being treated because I was treated for six months after my accident. I was still being treated. And um, they were scraping my, they were scraping me and stuff. And uh, he got a settlement and he told some people that me and my uncle, the one that used to, because I was 16 and I was still hanging out with my uncle. Anyways, I just stayed with my dad, just like two to three months out of that time. Anyways, um, my dad stole my knife collection. I had a knife collection. I like knives. And I was collecting knives. I was prep cook so I was into knives. Cause I would take a certain knife to do certain stuff. Like chicken, tomatoes, and then I’d collect knives. So he took my ah, after I got burnt, I went to stay back with my aunt and uncle because I recently just went to stay with my dad and my grandma. But when I got burnt I went back to my uncle’s because my aunt was there. Even though my uncle tormented me and would holler and beat me and stuff, there was good times too, you know. Anyways, my dad got broadsided and he got a settlement and he told people that knew me and my uncle that if they loaned him money, he’d pay them back when he got his settlement. Anyways, when he got his settlement he hopped, skipped out of town. And didn’t pay those people and then people were mad at my uncle. So, my dad calls us, uh, like a month later telling us that he needed us to verify that he could pay this guy back if this guy loaned him a car to get back home. And my uncle said, don’t you know, it was on the phone with my dad saying, “don’t you know you owed all those people that money, and you skipped town, and they’re on my ass about it. And now you want me to help you, you’re a low-life (?). I’m never going to help you again.” And he hung up on him. Well we found out, three years later, that my dad got hit. He was hitchhiking drunk and got run over by a semi. And they didn’t know who he was so they cremated him and put his ashes on a shelf.

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JULIE: Your dad, so, while your dad was out of town, he got hit by a semi?

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: And he died?

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: Oh, I’m sorry.

MICHAEL: And those are just a couple of deaths.

JULIE: Uh huh.

MICHAEL: So that happened.

JULIE: How old were you when your dad died?

MICHAEL: Well I figure he died when I was 17 or 18.

JULIE: Oh, you didn’t know.

MICHAEL: We didn’t know until three, four years later.

JULIE: Oh dear.

MICHAEL: But in between time, my dad sold my knife collection. And I was mad at him because he asked me to come back and stay with him. Well I went over to the house where my grandma was before she died. And there was beer cans and beer bottles setting everywhere. My dad was a bad alcoholic until recent. He was, he took a break from it. But when she passed and I was hurt he started drinking again. And I went to find my knives and they wasn’t there and I said, “where are my knives?” “Oh, you don’t need those knives I sold ‘em.” I said, “Fine, I’m not living with you.” And I went back to my aunt and uncle’s.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

MICHAEL: And, so that happened. But, that’s one death, two deaths that occurred, but I have a friend named Eric that shot and killed himself once.

JULIE: oh, how

MICHAEL: He got his girlfriend pregnant and he knew she was pregnant, but he was a gang member and he had a 25 handgun and he told me he needed bullets for the gun. So could sell the, so he could prove that the gun worked so he could sell it. And I went and got bullets for him and I loaded the bullets in the gun and gave it to him. And I went to do laundry at my mom’s and he went one way and I went the other. And he had my house key cause I let him stay with me. And I

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was coming home from doing laundry and my apartment was surrounded by the fire department and ambulance. And he shot and killed himself with the bullet I loaded in the gun. He was my best friend. And so there was another death.

JULIE: When was that, how old were you?

MICHAEL: Oh that happened, when that was 21, 22, 23, somewhere around in there.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. He was your best friend.

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: You were living on your own then.

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: You had your own apartment.

MICHAEL: Yeah. Downtown Dansville.

JULIE: A lot of deaths.

MICHAEL: But that’s the only ones, but,

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. And, when I asked about, you know you said you had a problem with schizophrenia, you brought up the deaths.

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: Is there a connection between them?

MICHAEL: Don’t know. Is it time for dinner? What time do you have?

JULIE: I have 3:20. Is it

MICHAEL: We eat in between 4:30. You said it’s 3:20?

JULIE: Yep.

MICHAEL: We don’t eat till 4:30.

JULIE: oh, okay. So you’ve got a little over an hour.

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: When I brought up the schizophrenia issue.

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MICHAEL: I mentioned my explosion because that’s when I started having it.

JULIE: Oh.

MICHAEL: I would get the shakes and I would be scared to do this. Scared to do that.

JULIE: So after that you started to get scared. Did you, what, anything else?

MICHAEL: My suicide attempts were more frequently after that too.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. After the grease explosion?

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: Uh huh.

MICHAEL: I don’t know if it was the near, near death experience that progressed it or what, but that’s when I realized, coming back from something like that, life is more fulfilling.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. Yeah. Um, so I’m I’m, usually when people say they have a diagnosis of schizophrenia they have either, heard voices or experienced hallucinations or delusions.

MICHAEL: I’ve seen ghosts.

JULIE: You’ve seen ghosts?

MICHAEL: I got arrested for it one day.

JULIE: Oh, what happened?

MICHAEL: I kicked in my apartment door.

JULIE: Uh huh.

MICHAEL: They got me for destruction of property. Because it was a rental property. I was renting it.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

MICHAEL: They got me for destruction of property.

JULIE: Oh, you saw ghosts? What did you see ghosts of?

MICHAEL: In the, in the mail they would send pictures of people that’s missing. And I, I swore I was seeing the people that was missing on the paper, I would run into them, somewhere in the

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daytime. I’d run into them. They’d be dead, or they’d be missing, and then I would get one of those things in the mail and I’d be like, “I know that person.” And I’d see little lights floating around.

J; Mm-hmmm.

MICHAEL: In the apartment where my friend shot and killed himself.

JULIE: He killed himself in your apartment?

MICHAEL: [nods]

JULIE: When did you start seeing the people, the ghosts?

MICHAEL: After he shot and killed himself.

JULIE: Oh, okay, so you were 21, 22.

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. Yeah, my understanding is usually people have different difficulties, whether it’s feeling depressed or seeing or hearing things because of stuff that’s gone on in their life. [pause] Sounds like having your friend kill himself in your apartment really affected you, which is understandable. [pause]

MICHAEL: Could we take a five, 10 minute break?

JULIE: Sure.

MICHAEL: I just need to move around.

JULIE: It’s tough to talk about this stuff?

MICHAEL: I just need to…. I wonder why they won’t let nobody use this picture?

JULIE: I don’t know.

[Break]

JULIE: She quit calling you out of the blue? {talking about Diane his ex-wife}

MICHAEL: She called me like every night. She might miss a night every once in a while, but then, four days went by, five days went by, six, a week went by. And now it’s been a week and two three days. I, I quit waiting. I don’t expect her to call, no more.

JULIE: But you don’t know what happened.

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MICHAEL: She either met somebody, or, I don’t know.

JULIE: So after calling you every day, she suddenly stops calling you and that’s it?

MICHAEL: Yep. [pause]

JULIE: Have you ever gotten into arguments with her before?

MICHAEL: A long, long time ago. We ain’t argued in years. Years, I mean, we haven’t talked in four years. [laughs] Then we talk for two weeks and now, nothing at all.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. Is it hard for you when you get into disagreements with people?

MICHAEL: [shakes head no]

JULIE: No.

MICHAEL: I disagree to agree. [laughs]

JULIE: I’m not sure I follow.

MICHAEL: I agree to disagree.

JULIE: Oh, okay.

MICHAEL: [laughs] No, I don’t have problems arguing.

JULIE: Uh huh.

MICHAEL: I ain’t been in a fight since I’ve been on this unit. I threw a chair once. I punched the bubble once.

JULIE: Yeah, what was going on when you punched the bubble?

MICHAEL: I was just mad about some stuff.

JULIE: What were you mad about?

MICHAEL: Um, staff marking me saying I didn’t get out of bed when I did.

JULIE: Oh. That sounds frustrating. [pause] I was wondering, if you feel like telling me, um, when you ask to take a break, what’s going on for you?

MICHAEL: Um, just feel like I need to stand up and stretch, and um, relieve my mind. I seem stressed out when I talk to you about stuff. It’s a feeling I don’t like.

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JULIE: You don’t like feeling stressed out.

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: Yeah. It’s hard to talk about those things.

MICHAEL: I basically gave you my whole life story, I mean, up till now I mean.

JULIE: One thing I was wondering is, how you understand why you’ve felt depressed or why you’ve been diagnosed as schizophrenic.

MICHAEL: One of the things I was depressed about was not being able to see my son.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

MICHAEL: That’s been depressing me for the last eight years.

JULIE: Yeah.

MICHAEL: Second was my friend Eric shot and killed himself. And that’s been recently, the last eight years. And, just stuff that’s happened in the last eight years has really depressed me. Um, my mom having problems. She, uh, you know, I ain’t able to help her, you know when I’d like to. When I have this, I had to, what I need to help her, but other people won’t let me.

JULIE: You want to help her but other people won’t let you.

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: Oh. Hmmm. I guess I’m wondering about, why, what would make a three year old want to throw themselves off of a playground?

MICHAEL: I just climbed up there, and my sister was like “(what are you doing if someone?? ) jump off” She said, “no you’re not.” And I said, “yeah I am.” And I jumped. And I closed my eyes and I landed in a big pile of sand. And I laid there for a minute. Got up, shook it off, and went on. [pause] And I got, you know where Dansville Hospital is?

JULIE: No I don’t.

MICHAEL: You ain’t never been to Dansville?

JULIE: No.

MICHAEL: I had a suicide attempt there too.

JULIE: How old were you?

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MICHAEL: It was the last eight years.

JULIE: Oh, okay.

MICHAEL: I ran out into traffic and got hit by three cars.

JULIE: Oh my gosh. What was going on at the time?

MICHAEL: I just, my g-, Diane was being mean to me, and, [mumbles]. I got scraped from head to toe, no broken bones.

JULIE: Wow, you were lucky.

MICHAEL: I just got scraped from head to toe, and was in intensive care for a little while. They had to do a lot of tests on me, I had some injur- inside I had some internal injuries that healed. It took them a while but they healed.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

MICHAEL: But stopped being mad about stuff, most recently, keep-, nothing’s really keeping me down, I just ain’t went longer than a year without attempting suicide because I like the feeling of what it feels like after you attempt it.

JULIE: You like that feeling after you attempt it.

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: Ah. So do you really want to die, or do you want to just attempt?

MICHAEL: When I go, when I go to do it, I go to do it.

JULIE: You want to die.

MICHAEL: I mean I don’t, I don’t hold no strings.

JULIE: Uh huh. Okay. So it’s pretty bad when you want to kill yourself.

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: Yeah. You said when you were 12 you tried to kill yourself. What was going on then?

MICHAEL: Um, the same stuff. Worried about this and that and not really having a lot going for me. Bad luck.

JULIE: Bad luck?

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MICHAEL: Yeah, just luck.

JULIE: Must’ve been really bad. [pause] What about your dad, where was he?

MICHAEL: He was somewhere, not for sure where, I can’t really remember specific people and specific times in my life but…

JULIE: Was he around much when you were growing up?

MICHAEL: Off and on. Can we take a break?

JULIE: Sure, we can call it quits for today.

Second Interview with Michael

JULIE: Okay, um, so I guess I was wondering if you could tell me what your mom was like when you were little.

MICHAEL: Um, I would have to say unorthodox. Like she never really knew what she wanted, or, kind of like me now without the possibilities of kids. Cause my baby momma, you know, has custody of my kid. So I would say unorthodox. Like maybe she was always looking for something that wasn’t there or always looking for something more. Maybe she was just quite too young to have kids.

JULIE: What makes you say that, too young?

MICHAEL: A lot of women right out of high school and into their early twenties think they want kids, and then they have four or five kids within six, within four or five years and then they realize, well there’s got to be something else besides having kids. And they start looking for it and you know it just causes problems between them and their kids. You know going from one person to the next and stuff like that.

JULIE: Going from one person to the next, what do you mean?

MICHAEL: Well, I had one stepfather for a while. He was uh, alright, but, his name is Jeremy. From age, I’d say, age, from when I was a baby- no when I was a baby she was going out with my real dad.

JULIE: Hmmm.

MICHAEL: And then maybe when I was two – two and a half, she started dating Jeremy and then they got married. And then I went to stay with a lady when I was five. I was six, but um, he was my stepdad all the way up until age 11 or 12. And then they got divorced. But, he was in and out of her life, and you know, my life. Theoretically, cause she still has contact with me, my mom does, and one of my brothers lived with him, Jeremy.

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JULIE: And, so, what happened when um, so when you were born, your mom was with your dad and then when you were two they split up, or what happened?

MICHAEL: That’s what I’m guessing, I’m not really for sure. Just he was an alcoholic and really didn’t, my mom isn’t into that, she didn’t drink. So, you know, he was a bad alcoholic.

JULIE: What do you remember about him?

MICHAEL: Well nothing when I was two cause I don’t remember anything until I was at least, well my earliest memory going back would be from four, or three.

JULIE: What’s, oh go ahead.

MICHAEL: Earliest, uh, I remember my dad, I remember our first the earliest I can remember was him following us to a place. And Jeremy was telling my mom that if he runs into the back of his vehicle, he was going to kick his butt.

JULIE: Hmmm.

MICHAEL: [laughs] So I figure my dad was drinking and driving and was following us to be with us somewhere. I remember my stepdad telling my mom, if he runs into us he was going to kick his butt. And, he didn’t run into us. But then periodically my dad was out of my life after that. But when he came back in he wasn’t an alcoholic no more. He was quit drinking.

JULIE: When did he come back into your life?

MICHAEL: That would’ve had to been when I was three or four, say 11 or 12.

JULIE: Eleven or twelve. Okay.

MICHAEL: I guess he went somewhere and got in some trouble and was in jail for a while. For a DWI. He was drinking and driving and got busted for it. Was in jail for three or four years or something like that.

JULIE: Okay.

MICHAEL: And that’s when he quit drinking because he wasn’t, when he came out of jail he hadn’t been drinking. So, and he didn’t start drinking until after I got hurt and my grandma died.

JULIE: He didn’t start drinking again?

MICHAEL: Until then.

JULIE: Okay. Yeah. And, when you got hurt, your dad was there. You were working together.

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MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: Did he have anything to do with that accident?

MICHAEL: No, it was all my fault.

JULIE: Okay, just checking.

MICHAEL: I don’t think he realized just like me, realized to get away till it was ready to blow up and then take care of it. Instead of me standing over. It just happened so quick. It wasn’t really nothing he – like he said, he told me “get it out. Can you get it out?”

JULIE: Oh ok.

MICHAEL: I mean that was my first thought too was to get the lighter out, when it fell into the big tub of hot grease.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. Okay. And going back to what you said about mothers having children a lot of children really quickly and then realizing there are other things, and then it causing problems between the mom and their children.

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: I wonder what problems you had with your mom?

MICHAEL: Uh, not having good understanding. She had seven kids.

JULIE: Seven,

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay.

MICHAEL: You know, that’s a lot of kids. I was fifth. I was the first boy. And I know she, I’ve had, I had problems getting along with my mom all the way up until, I didn’t pretty much get along with nobody though. All the way up till recently, maybe three four years ago. I just realized my mom’s getting up there in age and I might as well you know, forgive her, and just go from now until she’s not around no more. (?telling her) I love her and you know she don’t hold no grudges against me and I don’t hold no grudges against her.

JULIE: What did you have to forgive her for?

MICHAEL: Just for what I said earlier, you know, having a bunch of kids without, you know, without any concrete standings, like (?) just here you are, here’s the world, handle it. You know. At a young age I had to work and I didn’t get to go to school. I didn’t get to realize a lot of things. I had to grow up really quickly and, you know I was mistreated, tortured and so, I always

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blamed her but it really wasn’t her fault. I had some bad choices myself that I could’ve made. You know. I could’ve got away from my uncle a lot quicker.

JULIE: You started living with him when you were ten right?

MICHAEL: Eleven. Ten, eleven around that time.

JULIE: Yeah, and when you were five you said you, you stopped living with your mom and Jeremy. How come?

MICHAEL: I don’t know. I think, it was probably easier on 'em.

JULIE: Pardon?

MICHAEL: It was probably easier on 'em.

JULIE: Probably easier on them.

MICHAEL: Yeah, to have one less kid. Which wasn’t really a good idea cause it backfired on 'em.

JULIE: What do you mean?

MICHAEL: Well, the lady that took me in her house to live with babysat other kids. And, I was five to six and there was little bitty infant babies around, and I beat one of 'em up. I don’t know why. I just, that was like a year after my first suicide attempt so. And, you know, even before I knew what suicide was, I attempted it. And I uh, pulled it on its ears and

JULIE: You pulled on the baby’s ears.

MICHAEL: Yeah, and shoved the bottle and the pacifier in his mouth really hard. As hard as I could. And, the uh, while the baby was in its little carrier. The baby had a sister that was, I’d say approximately five or six or so. And she went up to the parents and when my mom and dad would get me for the weekend. My mom and stepdad would get me for the weekend. And they brought me back to her house and they uh, and Nancy was her name, the lady who babysat. Told them she needed to talk to them privately. So they sent me back to the van. Cause we had a van and I was in there with my, my two brothers and my two sister and I had two sisters somewhere else, and they told her what- what I did to the baby and, so I couldn’t stay there no more. I got into trouble and I had to come back home to live with my mom and stepdad.

JULIE: Okay so you were with this other lady from ages like five to six or seven.

MICHAEL: Uh, I was there, I lived with her for maybe 2-3 weeks, four at the most.

JULIE: Oh, ok. What kind of trouble did you get into?

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MICHAEL: I don’t remember really getting whooped or anything for it. I remember getting cussed at over it, but I don’t remember anything else. I was always getting whooped (?).

JULIE: Who would whoop you?

MICHAEL: My stepdad.

JULIE: How would he whoop you?

MICHAEL: It was, it was sometimes not that hard. Sometimes it would be really hard. Just depends.

JULIE: Do you remember, can you remember a specific instance when he whooped you?

MICHAEL: Yeah, I remember ah, I remember getting into a fight with my cousin at school and I uh, my stepdad Jeremy he whooped me really really hard and _____ { Steve quickly switched to talking about a later incident} I pulled a gun on him, ___ they were my two step brothers that, because of them I didn’t shoot and kill him because I didn’t want them to know me as the person who took their dad’s life. So I didn’t shoot him but I beat him up real bad.

JULIE: How old were you when you beat him up?

MICHAEL: Oh that happened, um six years ago.

JULIE: Oh, ok, but when you were younger and you were saying there was one time when he really beat you badly.

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: What happened?

MICHAEL: He did his, he put me over his uh, knee and then he took and put his legs over my legs and he just hit like very hard like a whole bunch of times. As hard as he could. Like, for a long period of time. It hurt very badly, that’s why I pulled the gun on him and was going to kill him. Because I can remember that time. But I uh, beat him up and rammed his head into the stove like 15, 20 times and he had knots all over his head. And I guess that was my payback for what he did to me then.

JULIE: How did you feel when he did that to you when you were little?

MICHAEL: Helpless, but I felt some better after I beat – beat his head into the stove.

JULIE: That was a lot time later. That was a long time later. But, so when you were little, I forgot you were, how old were you?

MICHAEL: No a little older than ah, seven or eight.

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JULIE: Okay. You felt helpless.

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: Yeah. What’s the earliest whooping you remember?

MICHAEL: Um, earliest thing that I can remember?

JULIE: Or the earliest whooping.

MICHAEL: Uh, that one would be one that sticks in my mind because, I’m going to get into the shade.

JULIE: Okay, let’s move.

[Break]

JULIE: So that was the one that stood out in your mind. What’s your earliest memory?

MICHAEL: Being in a car wreck.

JULIE: How old were you when that happened?

MICHAEL: Um, I’d say probably two, two and a half. That’s a train isn’t it?

JULIE: Yeah, it’s loud [train going by]

MICHAEL: You want to turn that off while we wait for it to go by?

[paused for train]

JULIE: So you remember being in a car wreck?

MICHAEL: Yeah. I remember somebody um, slammed on their breaks and we either hit them in their rear ends or someone hit us in the rear end. It was, me, it was me, my three sisters, and that was it. Unless I had a little brother, Max and Dan, I think they came later. Cause I have two younger brothers and I have four older sisters. But one of my sisters, my mom let the state have and adopted out. Which I didn’t meet her until I was 18, 19.

JULIE: So, so you were all in the car and then either you were rear ended or you rear ended another car.

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: And then what happened?

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MICHAEL: Um, I remember my mom’s seat went forward cause it was the kind of cars that are pickup trucks and cars. El Camino or Rancho. You know what I’m talking about?

JULIE: Oh it was a car pickup truck, one of the low ones?

MICHAEL: No it was like a car that has a pickup truck in the back. And then it had, I remember my mom’s seat coming forward and my hand getting caught in it. I remember it pinching my hand. But, I don’t know, I can’t remember if we were at fault or the other person, I just know that the cops came, then we ended up at my grandmother’s house. Cause my grandmother was (still around). She didn’t die off until 12, 13, 14 years later. And um, yeah that was my earliest memory was being in a car wreck.

JULIE: How did you feel in the car wreck?

MICHAEL: Well, um, I (think) excited, excited, I knew something was going on. I remember saying “Oh! Oh! Oh! My hand!” and I remember the seat letting go of it and me pulling my hand back. And being pinched.

JULIE: Yeah. And, so what was it like for you when you were little, up until five when you went to live with that other woman for a while.

MICHAEL: I really don’t have too many memories of before five. My ______memories of days gone by. Playing, my sisters. And I really don’t have any uh, reflective memories ___ until I was at least seven or eight. I remember just having regular days, playing with my sisters. You know out in the yard. Basketball and cards. Fun times, from four to six, seven whatever. But there was some good times and some bad times.

JULIE: Tell me a little bit more about the bad times.

MICHAEL: Uh, well, like, just getting in trouble a lot. You know, we were all jumping off the boat into a swimming pool that was full of cans. I ended up jumping onto something that had air in it and I broke it and I got whooped and put in my playpen.

JULIE: Who whooped you?

MICHAEL: I think it was my uncle, or my dad, my real dad. I can’t remember. Because he was in and out of my life, my dad was. I can’t remember if it was my uncle, my real dad, or my stepdad. It was ____. I know the boat belonged to my uncle and, my mom’s sister’s husband, I don’t know if that makes him my uncle or just somebody in the family. I remember me and my cousin were very mean from age um, seven to age 14 or 15. From age eight to age nine, 10 more likely. I said 13, 15 but that was different. We would kick- play fight a lot, kick each other’s legs. I don’t know why we would do that but we was mean to each other.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. Yeah.

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MICHAEL: We did that a lot, me and him were always fighting and arguing. My mom’s sister’s little boy. Me and him was the same age.

JULIE: You had mentioned your first suicide attempt.

MICHAEL: Yeah. That happened at a park.

JULIE: Okay.

MICHAEL: And they had a thing that was like this

JULIE: Crossed, stacked up?

MICHAEL: Stacked real high, I’d say at least as high as the roof or higher. And I wasn’t no taller than probably [indicates about 3 ft] And I just dove off of it like I was some kind of spider man or something. [laughs]

JULIE: Yeah.

MICHAEL: Right into the sand and, I didn’t realize that it was an attempt to hurt myself until later in life. You know, I always thought it was something I did to be cool. But then when I got- later in life I realized what I did was dangerous and I could’ve got hurt real bad or died. You know I realized that was the first time I did something dangerous to harm myself. You know, and

JULIE: So I wonder what made you want to harm yourself at such a young age. You were what- three or four?

MICHAEL: Yeah, I couldn’t have been older than four. Because that happened before we moved back up to Dansville. And then we moved back to Kansas and then we moved back to Dansville. Me and my mom did. But I’ve had a very unstable life. And my family is, I’m all about my niece and nephews now. I don’t have a lot to ______. You know once I. I just want to get out of the hospital now and spend time with my niece and nephews, my mom, and just people that I know 15 to 20 years from now might not be in my life no more. So, you know I have some regrets and some not regrets. You know stuff that just happened that there’s no control over. And,

JULIE: What were some, well, I’m wondering what, what was so bad when you were three or four that you wanted to die?

MICHAEL: Well, I use- I used to see creatures.

JULIE: See creatures?

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: Tell me more about that.

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MICHAEL: Um, we would walk by the uh, the church and there’s a creature that would look out the window late at night when we walked out to church there was a creature. And, late at night my legs would hurt real bad and I’d get up in the middle of the night and everybody would be asleep and, um. I remember this, it was like this creature would take me and, take me to a different place and we would fall. After, after he was done with me I would fall from a high distance and land in my bed again. And um, uh, that’s probably why I wanted to jump. I narrowed it down. The only- the only explanation I believe it could be was somebody who was wearing a mask was coming to my crib and was, taking me and doing bad things to me and then throwing me up in the air and letting me land in the crib. And then that’s why my legs would hurt. And then they would leave the bar down so I could get out of the crib and, then they would, act like, no one was, they would act like when I was crying that they were asleep or whatever. I used to see this creature a lot when I was just a little, when I was a little.

JULIE: What did the creature look like?

MICHAEL: It looked like a creature, like a werewolf. It had a bald head. It had grimy teeth, big eyes. And it was pretty scary, you know what I mean.

JULIE: Yeah.

MICHAEL: And the only time I seen the creature, the only time I seen creatures like that was around the same time as Halloween was around. So,

JULIE: When was the first time you saw that creature?

MICHAEL: I remember uh whenever after the first, my first memory after the car wreck when we went to stay at my grandmother, that’s when I started seeing it.

JULIE: Uh huh. And what happened the first time you saw it? What did it do to you?

MICHAEL: Uh, it’d take me. It would pick me up and take me with it. And it would hurt- hurt- bend my legs, like bend my legs where they were sore. Like imagine something grabbing your leg and twisting on it the way it ain’t supposed to go. Just twisting my legs till where they were sore. And then it would, like me and the creature would fall and I would land on something soft, like either a mattress on the floor or my crib. I can’t remember exactly. And then the creature would be gone and then I would cry because my legs were hurting, but nobody would be around. It would be dark being the middle of the night.

JULIE: Uh huh.

MICHAEL: And then I seen uh, the same kind of creatures around Halloween time. Cause I would go to my aunt’s house, I was living with my grandmother but my mom and my stepdad got a house by themselves after that. But then I kind of like a similar creature when my aunts and uncles got together and, they had a mask on and was pointing at me and then, uh, me it was the same creature so I was scared. And then, they said, “We’ll take it off. We’ll put it up.” And then they- they went in a different room and then they come out and I never seen it no more. But I

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was scared because I was scared of anything that didn’t look normal because of the creature that I was seeing when I was little.

JULIE: Yeah. So you remember it would twist your legs in ways that they shouldn’t go.

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: And I’m wondering if it touched you anywhere else?

MICHAEL: I can’t remember. I just remember when it was hurting me.

JULIE: Uh huh.

MICHAEL: I talked to a counselor at Recovery Services about it and he said sounds like somebody had a mask on and was doing bad things to me. I don’t know if it was uh that, or just, a creature that lived in the house. You know how some houses have bad (homes/gnomes?) to ‘em. Like somebody died in there and they have creatures.

JULIE: Like ghosts?

MICHAEL: Ghosts yeah. Or if uh, my experiences during the day with my stepdad and people arguing and fighting was making my dreams irregular. It could’ve been either one of those. It could’ve been made up- I could’ve made it up. But what was real to me was the pain.

JULIE: The pain.

MICHAEL: The pain was real and um, continuous of doing it over and over was real. And whether it was made up, whether it happened, but the pain was real. I mean, I couldn’t make that up. I mean.

JULIE: No. I believe you. I believe something happened to you. And you said it would do bad stuff to you.

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: What other bad stuff would it do?

MICHAEL: It would just, uh, like, just scared me a lot. I mean it just, it was like a, like it’d only come and night and it hurt me and, it would uh, hold me to where I couldn’t move. Like, hold me down and I’d be like, “Let go.” You know what I mean, I felt helpless then too. I just, that’s pretty much all it did. But it twisted my legs. It would hold me down, like put a lot of weight on my stomach to where it’s hard to breath. I really can’t remember too much of it, but I know it did happen. Yeah.

JULIE: You know it did happen?

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MICHAEL: It happened.

JULIE: Yeah.

MICHAEL: I mean I know it happened.

JULIE: Yeah. Mm-hmmm.

MICHAEL: Then later in life I had a friend who committed suicide, Eric. And like, I would see uh, in the middle of the night I would see floating little lights, that would float across the room at the same spot where he uh, shot and killed himself. Because I- I didn’t move out of the place until a year later. I stayed with my girlfriend because she had a- a apartment like three or four blocks down the street. We got an apartment we got with her was for both of us, but then we broke up. And I got an apartment up the street and uh, I went to a ritual and um, I quit seeing ghosts and stuff after that.

JULIE: You went to what?

MICHAEL: A ritual.

JULIE: Oh, a ritual.

MICHAEL: They did a ritual and they gave me an aluminum foil with uh, herbs in it. And they did a ritual with candles and they, there was a guy- a special guy that came into your house and he’d light stuff on your window sills. And then he drew up what demon was bugging me looked like. And um, he drawed up the demon and then they did a ritual. And then they said, “keep this underneath your pillow.” And when they did that, that little flash of light kind of faded out and I didn’t see it no more. And it seemed like my life got a little bit easier, but.

JULIE: But you’d been seeing that light flashing where.

MICHAEL: He shot and killed himself in the corner of the room like where the couch was.

JULIE: Okay.

MICHAEL: And that’s where I was seeing him. I would wake up, I’d hear a noise and I’d wake up and it’d, you know how your eyeballs adjust if you see- look right at the sun and then you look away from the sun, you know how it will block out?

JULIE: Yeah there’s those, yeah, dots.

MICHAEL: I would see something like that, but I wasn’t looking at the sun or nothing. It would float across and then it would just disappear right there where he shot and killed himself. And that ain’t the only time I was haunted either. I had a place somewhere else, and I had a BB gun and I was shooting a can down in the basement. The stairs came straight up. I put a can down in the basement floor and I would shoot BB’s into the can. Well one time I shot the can full of BB’s

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and I closed the basement door. And then I was shooting (out the back?) Well I ran out BB’s so I thought I’ll just go get that can that’s laying on the floor and get the BB's out of it. Well when I opened the door, I didn’t see the can. And I thought- well okay, maybe the wind blew it that way. I went down there and when I went down there, something stuck the can inside the bricks. The brick has those holes in them? Something stuck the can perfectly down in that brick. And that scared me. I quit going down there because there’s no way for anybody else to get down there. There’s only one door in and one door out- my door. And I know there wasn’t nobody that went down there in between.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

MICHAEL: And um, so that’s another time I was haunted. And um, to me ghosts are real. I mean.

JULIE: Yeah, tell me more about ghosts that you’ve experience with because you mentioned that last time too.

MICHAEL: Those were a couple times. Uh, I can’t go- hardly go by cemeteries. Cause I get a feeling inside of death. Like, like, my brother used to, my brother Dan used to live by a cemetery, and I’d leave there late at night riding my bicycle. And then I would just feel like something was watching me. It was really scary, I mean, we have a lot of cemeteries in Dansville where I lived too. We have one on Brown that goes all the way across the road.

JULIE: So how do you feel when you’re by a cemetery?

MICHAEL: Like something’s watching me.

JULIE: Okay.

MICHAEL: Especially if it’s at night and I’m by myself.

JULIE: Yeah. And, so other that the ghosts, the one you had an encounter with in your basement and then there was the light that would come in the corner where you friend, where Eric killed himself.

MICHAEL: I’m trying to remember some other times. I know there is. There was a bunch of times, I know people on the street. Knew me- would uh, ask me if I was still ghost-hunting and ask me you know, if I’ve seen any ghosts today. Because I would get these things in the mail- “Have you Seen Me”

JULIE: So and so

MICHAEL: Have You Seen So and So. And I swear to god, I would get those in the mail and the people on there would be somebody I ran into-

JULIE: How old were you

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MICHAEL: within a week or so before I got it or a week or so after I got it. And it was, it didn’t matter if it was a kid, a woman, a man. It didn’t matter. And I had, and some of those people we know for 100%, some of those people are probably dead.

JULIE: So you would see them even though that they were dead?

MICHAEL: Well, you know, not all those people that are missing. And they send you a new one practically every day, every other day a new one. And uh, you know, half the people are probably dead. People that got kidnapped or lost. And um, yeah, and some times I would at those pictures and the people on there would look evil. And they, I – they were looking at me like the was looking through me.

JULIE: Looking through you?

MICHAEL: Yeah, instead of looking at me they was looking through me.

JULIE: What was that like?

MICHAEL: It was scary and then I started. I don’t know who was doing it but somebody was ripping out the pictures, was ripping out the pictures and sticking them on the- the door that comes out of the apartment to where I was living, was sticking 'em up, when I open up my door that would be the first thing I see. So I don’t know who was doing that. But I finally ripped off my mailbox. [chuckles] And threw it away. And I got evicted for doing that and a couple and writing on the walls, cause I was- like I said I was pretty out of it with all the voodoo and crap going on. And I was on medicine and I was on prolixin and I was having mood sw- reactions to the prolixin I was on. Then, everybody knew it. I was people phobic. You know I was scared to, for people, to go outside. It was terrible. I lived like that for like a year. Then I got evicted and then I got sent here.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

MICHAEL: But before I got sent here, I did, I went to that ritual and it helped me out because like, you know how you gotta' share rooms here sometimes.

JULIE: Yeah.

MICHAEL: I couldn’t even share a room with nobody. If I woke up in the middle of the night and you was over there snoring or you was over there and I looked over there, I wouldn’t see you or hear you. I would see a ghost or something evil and hear something evil. I don’t know if it was the medicine I was on, if something was playing tricks on me or what it was, but

JULIE: What would you see?

MICHAEL: Like you smiling at me, but you’re sleeping. You’d be like [closes eyes and grins] and it would really look evil. [chuckles]

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JULIE: Oh, ok.

MICHAEL: Cause it was pretty, it was bad.

JULIE: Yeah. And you said you would hear something evil?

MICHAEL: Yeah, like, when instead of somebody snoring, to me it sounded like they were growling. Like a- like a mad wolf growl.

JULIE: A mad wolf growl?

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: And when did you start seeing ghosts for the first time?

MICHAEL: When I was little at a church.

JULIE: Tell me about that.

MICHAEL: There ah, there was a funeral going on at the church. And I was little, I was real little. And there was a casket- casket with a body in it. And, they tell me not to go in there because I wasn’t old enough, but I didn’t go in there. But when I walked by I could see kind of like, the guy that was in there, in the casket. And then, when they, they closed the casket and I was coming up by again, I seen the same guy walking out of there- walking back out of there. And,

JULIE: The guy from the casket walking out?

MICHAEL: Yeah, I turned and I asked, it was either my sister or my cousin, my cousin Megan was there at that time. Before she got sent to her dad. I said, “Did you see that guy? He looks like the guy in the coffin?” And I can’t remember what she said, but she said, it wasn’t polite, it wasn’t nice to say that about dead people. And that was my first time. But um, if I’m out late at night, like I took the bicycle trail from here to Dansville, I walked it, like 99, if you take the bicycle trail it’s point nine nine point nine miles from here to Dansville because it goes like this and then it goes out [gestures at angles] so it doesn’t go straight up north like the highway does, it goes around and kind of zigzags through, so it’s more miles.

JULIE: Okay.

MICHAEL: And there’s a cemetery in between. And when I walked it, I seen um, I felt like something was following me then too. But, I do things, I do things that normal people can’t do. Like a normal person wouldn’t be able to walk from here to there within one day because their ankles would swell up and they would be sore. Mine would swell up and be sore, but I still walked it. I rode a bicycle from here to there too.

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JULIE: How old were you when you did that?

MICHAEL: This is recently.

JULIE: Oh, okay. And when you saw the ghost at the church, how old were you?

MICHAEL: I was about, oh, I can’t remember exactly. I’d say in between, three and four, four and five, somewhere around in there. But just barely old enough to talk.

JULIE: Okay. Mm-hmmm.

MICHAEL: And um, but, I- I- I’ve been haunted for a while. But you know. I’ve gotten over it. I haven’t been haunted in a long time. I mean I don’t see stuff no more. I’d like to believe I’m on the right medicine and I’m right with god and I don’t, when you and me are done talking about, I won’t even go and talk to nobody else about it. Because the more you talk about it, the more you open yourself for it. You know what I mean?

JULIE: For being haunted?

MICHAEL: Yeah cause if you dwell on something, it becomes reality. Just cause you’re dwelling on it.

JULIE: Oh ok. Mm-hmm.

MICHAEL: Do you know what time it is?

JULIE: It’s quarter to three.

MICHAEL: Time goes slow. I’m going to have to go in and take a drink of water.

JULIE: Okay you want to take a break?

MICHAEL: Yeah.

[Break]

JULIE: I guess

MICHAEL: I can probably do some digging, just let me think for a minute. Probably do some digging. I used to ah- oh you got that on?

JULIE: Yeah. Thanks.

MICHAEL: I use to ah, run away a lot and just like, not not care about nothing. I mean I really don’t remember ever having truly feelings about anybody. Or myself. I- I’ve always seemed to be just, not in the same boat with everybody. It’s like the world was not for me, it was not, I was

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born for bad stuff. I was born to see everything bad. I felt bad. I didn’t like really nothing. I didn’t really know anything other than just torment and suffering and um. You know most people they live, they suffer a little bit, they die. And they move on. Me, it’s like I’ve lived, I suffered, and I haven’t moved on. [laughs]

JULIE: You’ve lived, you’ve died?

MICHAEL: Not died physically, but just spiritually. I mean I’ve lived, I’ve died a million times. I mean, I mean, I’d wake up in the morning as a kid and instead of wondering about going to school or all the fun stuff, I had responsibility, and you know I had to work, I had to uh, you know. I did- I was at a small, I went to school when I was little in between time of being passed around. I went to school just a little bit. And I didn’t get made fun of the first two grades. But like after that, everybody always picked on me, made fun of me. I mean, that’s

JULIE: What did they say?

MICHAEL: that’s been my whole life.

JULIE: What did they say to you?

MICHAEL: They made fun of the clothes I wear. They made fun of, when we’d go to uh, uh, something called running the track, if I ran through the cone everybody would make fun of – “Oh, he cut the cone.” Just stuff like that, and. Um, uh, let’s see they made fun of the clothes I wear, how I did my activities. At recess, instead of playing- I never had recess. I had to sit on the side and write sentences: “I will not do this. I will not do that. I will obey this. I will obey that.” And, it was just one thing after another, and, um, all the way up until high school, I mean. Only reason I’m as smart as I am now is from all the experience of being tossed out into the cold, you know.

JULIE: Can you tell me more about that. Yeah, you said you got passed around and tossed out in the cold. Can you give me a timeline, so you started out with your mom.

MICHAEL: It started ever since I was little all the way up till now.

JULIE: Okay.

MICHAEL: I mean I’m still being left out and tossed into the cold. I mean it started and it hasn’t ended yet. That’s why I have over 13, 14 suicide attempts under my belt. And, and, I try to see the good and say okay this is getting better. But I don’t, I don’t, my heart’s a stone man. And I don’t see anybody breaking it.

JULIE: Your heart’s a stone.

MICHAEL: Yeah, I don’t see anybody breaking it. And the only thing that keeps me alive to this day is, you know, I don’t want to hurt nobody else, and. I have a big family and I don’t want them hurt because of my- but then I have to think, well I’m I’m going to be in my coffin alone. I

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mean it ain’t like if I die they have to die. I mean, so it bugs me to know if I die that they will be hurt, but at the same time, I don’t know if that’s enough to stop me from, you know, my next suicide attempt.

JULIE: Yeah.

MICHAEL: You know.

JULIE: And you said you’ve been tossed in the cold so many times and you’re still being tossed in the cold. What’s your earliest memory of being tossed in the cold?

MICHAEL: I felt that way ever since, um, ah, my earliest, well it would be hard to find because it had to be way back when I was a little kid. But I can’t pinpoint what age or what time. Um, I felt that way whenever I would be sent off. So the lady, Nancy was her name, whenever she took me under her wing and got me into school and I ended up hurting that little baby. And, that’s probably the first time I felt like I was tossed out in the cold.

JULIE: What lead to you feeling tossed out in the cold?

MICHAEL: I don’t know, just not being around my family and my brothers and sisters, and.

JULIE: So that was the first time you were passed of or tossed out, was when you were f-

MICHAEL: Yeah, and I want something out of life, but I just don’t know what.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. Yeah. So, you started out with your mom and your dad. And then your dad left and your stepdad Jeremy was there.

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: And then at age five you went to Nancy’s for a few weeks.

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: And then, you hurt the baby and you were sent back to your family. And then, how long were you with your family after that?

MICHAEL: Maybe, six seven years.

JULIE: So up until age 12?

MICHAEL: Yeah, and then I went to stay with my uncle.

JULIE: Okay.

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MICHAEL: That was my choice, and then they ended up getting custody of me, so then I couldn’t leave. But then, when I turned shh-ss, I ended up leaving, leaving ah, him when I was 16 because I was legal enough to be, at age 16, but then I came back to hang out with him and work with him, all the way up till I was 18. But he’s the one that got me on drugs, and got me um, would wake me up and get me high and beat- beat on me, up until I was able to, he didn’t want to fight with me cause he would lose.

JULIE: Yeah.

MICHAEL: And,

JULIE: Oh, sorry- go ahead.

MICHAEL: And um, [laughs] at first, he, I w-, he would win. And he would wake me up and “Here, smoke this.” And then he’d start arguing with me and we’d end up getting into a fight cause I was like “Fuck you” you know, “I don’t care.” And uh, anyways, he had a really F-U attitude and I’d give him the same attitude back. He was bigger than me so, it was my downfall, but, you know I got pretty good at fighting after all the stuff that happened to me before then, you know. So, and ah-

JULIE: A lot of fighting before then too?

MICHAEL: Yeah, I would fight with people all the time. Just crazy stupid reasons. I- I fought my cousin in preschool just because he was my cousin. I don’t even know why I wanted to fight him. He was, didn’t do nothing to me.

JULIE: So you said when you were 10, or was it 11, I think you said that you went to, you chose to go live with your aunt and uncle. How come?

MICHAEL: My mom went back to um, to get her GED. And, all- all of – everybody except for the two little boys, my brother Dan and my brother Max, they were eight and nine, nine and eight. They had somewhere to stay. I was 12, my sisters were 16 and 17 and 18. I had three sisters, my fourth sister got adopted out. But, they all had somewhere to stay. I was the only one who didn’t have nowhere to stay. Because everybody pretty much rebelled against my mom. And um, so my mom went to get her GED.

JULIE: Oh wait, what do you mean by rebelled against your mom?

MICHAEL: They wasn’t living with her, pretty much going and doing whatever they want.

JULIE: At, how old were they all.

MICHAEL: My sister, one of my sisters was a year older than me. Then one of my sisters was two years older than me. Then one of my sisters was three years older than me.

JULIE: Okay. So they were all still pretty young, all under 18.

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MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: And they all wanted to leave your mom?

MICHAEL: Well, they, nobody really was staying with her, we was all just going around. I mean.

JULIE: How come nobody wanted to stay with her?

MICHAEL: Most of the time she just wanted to read books and lay around. I mean, you know. I don’t ever remember her being too much of a family person. She’s more of a family person now than what she was when she was younger.

JULIE: When she was younger she wasn’t much of a family- so she would just read books.

MICHAEL: To me and probably my sisters, she just wanted to go from one guy to the next.

JULIE: She dated a lot of guys?

MICHAEL: Yeah, and there was this one guy that we really hated a lot. Vinnie. He uh, he hurt animals and, we really didn’t like him, and she was kind of dating him a little bit at that time. So that’s why we all rebelled against her because we knew he liked to hurt animals.

JULIE: What did he do to animals?

MICHAEL: He’d kill 'em.

JULIE: Did he hurt you guys too?

MICHAEL: He- he ain’t really never- he threw me across the room once because I told him what I thought of him. He picked me up and kind of tossed me. He really didn’t throw me all the way across the room. He just picked me up off the chair and kind of threw me on the floor. It really didn’t hurt or nothing. I mean, I- I- fought him one time before that. He really, didn’t hurt me to where I needed to stay in the hospital. But he held me down and he twisted my neck a little bit. And stuck his finger in my eye. But to me that really wasn’t, hurt, to me that was just like a little roughed up. Because I was already, roughed up from everything else that you know, it was hard for anything to faze me.

JULIE: Roughed up from everything else?

MICHAEL: Yeah, it was hard for anything to faze me. I was fighting full grown men when I was 12. I mean, you know, I would take you on. It would not be no scared bone in me. If you was wanting to fight, I was there.

JULIE: Yeah.

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MICHAEL: That’s how- why- I have no teeth to this day, cause they would get knocked out.

JULIE: Oh, ok. And, you said, so before age 12 you were getting in. You were getting roughed up a lot. And who was roughing you up then?

MICHAEL: Just stress and my uncle and my stepdad. Just people that was around, my um, because we’d get _____ nuts and we’d play football and my cousins were bigger than me and stuff. And they’d play football with me. And I would trip ‘em, and then they would fall on me. You know, I-

JULIE: That sounds more like rough-housing versus I mean what that boyfriend did to you sounded quite violent. He was-

MICHAEL: Yeah he was trying to-

JULIE: putting his finger in your eye.

MICHAEL: he was trying to be, he was trying to be, he was trying to break my neck is what I thought he was trying to do. Cause he had my neck like this and he was very drunk at the time when he did it.

JULIE: He could’ve killed you.

MICHAEL: Yeah, he could’ve easily broke my neck. But he didn’t, he didn’t because it wasn’t- you know it wasn’t my time to go. Just like when I attempted suicide, it wasn’t my ah time to go. You want to come out of here? The closed in area. {We had switched to my office.}

[Break to move locations]

JULIE: Um, so I was wondering about, you mentioned how that boyfriend, the one you didn’t like, had almost broken your neck. And you said it didn’t faze you or anything because you were used to that. So you’d had much worse when you were younger-

MICHAEL: Yeah. Cause my stepdad when he would whoop me, he would throw his leg over my legs and then pa-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. [makes motion of swatting a child laid across his lap]. You know like 20, 30 swats and he’s- sometimes he’d use a board or his hand or a belt. And, um, and I, you know and – my violence went from that to onto my brothers. I remember punching my brothers in the side of the head and stuff cause they would act crazy. And I really didn’t want ‘em to. I just wanted them to set down and, you know, I don’t even know where my mom was at or nothing. I was only maybe 12 or 13 and my brothers were six and seven, seven and eight. You know, and I was being violent towards them and you know. I wish I never did it you know, but I can’t take it back. I could just hope that they’re doing good now.

JULIE: Yeah.

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MICHAEL: You know have the rest of their life be good to 'em. You know.

JULIE: Yeah, and so how, so your stepdad when you were, your mom got together with him when you were five or six.

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: And so that’s when, and so he started beating you when you were that young?

MICHAEL: [nods]

JULIE: Okay. And when he would beat you. How was that for you?

MICHAEL: Well, just felt helpless, and I just um, I just wanted to be somewhere else.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. Yeah.

MICHAEL: I wish I could go back because I would do so much more to help my mom and my brothers through it. Because, when I was staying with my uncle, we went over there to uh, where my brother and mom was at, my two brothers and my mom was at, and she was dating Vinnie, the guy who liked to kill animals. And my brother had a knot on his eye and you know, and I was staying with my uncle so I couldn’t you know, bark up a fight with the guy and give him a good fight.

JULIE: You couldn’t what with the guy?

MICHAEL: Bark up a fight.

JULIE: Bark up a fight.

MICHAEL: Because then I’d be in trouble with my uncle. Because if I were to see a bruise on my brother’s eye and I thought that he did it, well then I would’ve been, I would’ve been well, my brother was smaller than me. So I would’ve gave the guy a good fight.

JULIE: Yeah.

MICHAEL: And I might not’ve only been 12 or 13 but, at that age I as lifting weights and I was fighting full grown men- my uncle. [laughs]

JULIE: Yeah.

MICHAEL: And I was giving my uncle a pretty good fight as it was. And I was holding back on my uncle cause I loved him. I didn’t- I didn’t like Vinnie at all. So you know, it wouldn’t been nothing for me to put his head through a glass window or pick up a jar and bust it over his face or you know, stab him with a knife or whatever. And I went over there and my brother had a black eye and big knot on the side of his head. And I knew Vinnie did it. And I didn’t want to get in

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trouble with my uncle. I didn’t want to have to fight Vinnie then fight my uncle, and all those. But if I could go back, I would. I would take both of ‘em. You know what I mean? And I would whoop Vinnie’s ass. And if my uncle wanted some afterwards I would’ve whooped his ass too. You know and.

JULIE: Yeah.

MICHAEL: But I didn’t and you know I felt so bad. I felt helpless. I felt like, you know, the guy killed little bitty puppy dogs.

JULIE: He killed puppy dogs?

MICHAEL: Yeah he killed little bitty puppies. He killed, and what was so fucking stupid. Sorry about my French.

JULIE: It’s fine.

MICHAEL: He ended up killing my uncle’s dog. And him and my uncle were getting drugs from each other. He came over to my uncle’s house and said, “Hey, I’ve got a treat for your dog.” My uncle said, my uncle already knew, my uncle said, “No don’t feed him. Don’t give him anything.” We left. Vinnie left in his car and we left. And it wasn’t a week later that the dog’s eyes started popping out. Got poisoned.

JULIE: So you think that Vinnie did it?

MICHAEL: Yeah! He was trying to feed him something a week earlier. He waited for us to leave and he circled the block and came back around and fed that to him. It had strychnine in it.

JULIE: So he killed that dog. He killed puppies?

MICHAEL: And he killed puppies.

JULIE: Did you see him kill the puppies?

MICHAEL: No, well his own son had a dog. And he supposedly cared about his own son, Vinnie Jr. which I- I liked his son too I mean I didn’t take up on him cause he you know was his son, but I didn’t him out either. Had a little black puppy dog and, we were gone and somehow we come back and the puppy dog has got a big knot on the back of his head. It’s got a broken neck and it’s just laying there and, and my mom’s gone. I don’t even know where she’s at. I remember laying there at night and I remember him taking that puppy dog into the bathroom, turning on the water and he was in there for like 3 hours. I don’t know what he was doing to that dog but he did it for three hours straight. I think he was drowning it, bringing it back out, drowning it, bringing it back up, you know until it died.

JULIE: What did you hear?

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MICHAEL: I just heard the water running and after that the dog was gone. I remember finally going to sleep and next day the dog wasn’t nowhere around. And then I had a dog and somehow uh, dog got gasoline poured on it. So I took [laughs] I took a stink bomb and broke it and stuck it in Vinnie’s car. [laughs] I stuck a stink bomb in Vinnie’s car and I told him the neighbors did it. So then the neighbors dog come up dead. [laughs] So I felt bad, I was like – dang it.

JULIE: He killed the neighbor’s dog.

MICHAEL: He killed the neighbor’s dog because he thought they stuck the stink bomb in his car. But I actually stuck the stink bomb in his car for him pouring gasoline on my dog.

JULIE: Did it kill your dog?

MICHAEL: No, I gave my dog a bath.

JULIE: Ok, your dog was ok.

MICHAEL: I don’t know what happened to the dog after that cause I left, but I can’t remember exactly, I think the dog got loose or whatever. And um, um, yeah so he’s dead now, Vinnie is. The dog killer. He’s dead. He finally died I think five, six years ago.

JULIE: Oh ok. And so, that’s why you wanted to go live with your aunt and uncle, because Vinnie was awful?

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: And so you lived with your aunt and uncle from ages 12 to 16.

MICHAEL: Yeah and then till I had my own rights and then I went to stay with my mom and Vinnie was still around in between time, and uh, I went back to my aunt and uncles, no, I was staying with my dad and my grandmother after that because I started working with my dad and then I, I was in my explosion, which I got that scar. [shows scar on shoulder]

JULIE: Yeah.

MICHAEL: I was in my grease fire explosion. And I went to, and I wanted to go stay back with my dad, but when I went to his house he sold- I had a $800 worth of knives collection that I was collecting. I was a prep cook so why not- why wouldn’t I collect knives. He said I didn’t need ‘em.

JULIE: So he sold your knives.

MICHAEL: He sold my knives and he didn’t even have to because it was a brand new air- conditioner with a brand new washer and dryer. Brand new everything that my grandma bought. And I went there and opened up the door and I seen beer bottles setting around everywhere. So I

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went straight to my room to get what was the most expensive thing in there out of there you know, so I can go back to my aunt and uncle’s.

JULIE: But he had sold it.

MICHAEL: Yeah. My knife collection was gone and I said, “dude,” and I’m already bandaged up and I can’t fight you know. I’m like, “Dude, where’s my knives?” “Oh you don’t need those knives.” And I said, “Well, I’m not coming to stay here with you. You’re a thief.”

JULIE: Yeah.

MICHAEL: And I said, “You’re lucky I can’t fight right now, cause I’d take $800 out of your butt.” [laughs] You know what I mean. I had the whole- I had the box, that was $230 worth of knives. And then I had a survival knife, it was like a $60 knife. And I had a bunch of matching knives, it was a whole complete $800 set. That’s how much I put into 'em. And I told him. I said, “If I could fight right now, I’d take $800 out of your butt.” You know. He was drunk and that was the reason why I wanted to fight him. I wasn’t so mad about the knives. I wouldn’t have fought my dad over that. It was cause he was drunk, which was what was making me mad.

JULIE: You were mad at him for being drunk

MICHAEL: I was pissed off about the knives and then he was drunk. So that’s really what pushed me over the edge to wanting to whoop his butt- for being drunk. But I couldn’t because I was already hurt. And I was wrapped. And the told me don’t get no rub- don’t rub your skin cause when you’re burnt and you get rubbed against it cuts you real easy.

JULIE: Yeah.

MICHAEL: You’ll get cut real easy cause it’s like having no skin on you.

JULIE: Yeah.

MICHAEL: So I said, “You’re drunk. I’m going back to stay with Nathan and Betsy.” My aunt’s name was Betsy. And then, he goes- he said, “Whatever.” So I left there and I went back to stay with them. I healed up and he moved. They went to get, him and my cousin were on the way to get my grandmother’s birth certificate and my cousin got broadsided by another car. And um,

JULIE: Your dad got a settlement.

MICHAEL: He moved out of the place where he stole my knives into a place next door to some people that we knew. And he told, was borrowing money off of them. He wanted me to come live with him so we could go back to work together. But after the knife issue- situation, he quit drinking. But after he was stealing my stuff I told him, “I’m not moving in with you.”

JULIE: Yeah.

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MICHAEL: “You stole my stuff, so I can’t trust you.” Well he was telling people next door that we knew and liked and we knew, “Hey if you give me 20 bucks here and 20 bucks there, when I get my settlement, I’ll give it all back.” Well he ended up owing eight hundred and some odd dollars to people we liked. When he got his settlement. He left town.

JULIE: Yeah.

MICHAEL: Well he ended up calling us, oh six seven months later. Maybe four months later. “Hey if you tell this guy up here that I’m good for it, he’ll give me a car and I’ll pay him whenever I get a job down there. I just need a car to get back into town.” And my uncle was like, “You realize when you left here you left owing a debt and you didn’t pay him back. And people are on my ass about where you’re at. And cussing me out at the grocery store. You realize you ain’t nothing but trouble?” My uncle put it on him, cause that’s what happened. These people came looking for him, for their money and all that was around was my uncle, which is his brother and these people knew it.

JULIE: Yeah.

MICHAEL: They figured if we turn the heat on him, then he will have to turn the heat on and get their money. And um, so, my uncle cussed him out. I didn’t even talk to him. He said he wanted to talk to me. I was like, I was like- I’m done. I mean he stole my $800 worth of knives and sold it when he didn’t even have to.

JULIE: Yeah, so.

MICHAEL: You know.

JULIE: Can I go back a bit?

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: When you moved when you were 11 in with your aunt and uncle.

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: How come your mom didn’t keep you from moving out? How come she didn’t ask- keep- ask you to stay with her?

MICHAEL: Cause she went back to school. And she had a house beside my aunt where my two brothers stayed at the time, when this all went down. Because my sisters were having their boyfriends over and they were breaking out the windows. And they were, doing this and doing that. So my mom stayed away from there. She didn’t bring no food in, she didn’t come back. She- they ran, my sisters and their boyfriends took over. And, they were doing whatever. They were eating the food. And I didn’t- I was going to stay there but they wouldn’t let me have none of the food. So I left and I went to stay with my aunt and uncle.

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JULIE: So when you were about twelve, your mom basically abandoned you guys.

MICHAEL: Yeah. Well she had no choice, because I wasn’t- the school I was supposed to be going to was right across the street, which I wasn’t going because I didn’t- I wasn’t good at school and I always got in trouble at school, you know. They was more, it was less stress on me not going to school than it was going to school.

JULIE: Okay.

MICHAEL: And uh, my sisters’ boyfriends and them was knocking out the windows and, they would uh, they would come in the morning time and talk about what they were gonna' do. They would go kill kitty cats and stuff.

JULIE: They’d kill kitty cats?

MICHAEL: Yeah, this was a big city- Kansas City. I don’t know what was up with these teenagers but they liked to kill kitty cats. So not only did I know people that liked to kill dogs, I also knew people that liked to kill kitty cats.

JULIE: Yeah.

MICHAEL: So I kind of got it from all different angles. [laughs] But yeah, um.

JULIE: So I’m wondering when you were five or six and you went to go live with Nancy, was your mom abandoning you then too?

MICHAEL: Um, I don’t know what kind of agreement they had. I don’t know, can’t remember, I think somebody got some money out of it.

JULIE: Uh huh.

MICHAEL: I’m not sure who.

JULIE: How did you understand your mother throwing you out in the cold or leaving you with Nancy?

MICHAEL: Well it- I – I – I liked it all – all up to where she want- made me eat things I didn’t like to eat.

JULIE: Nancy did?

MICHAEL: Yeah. See before, if we didn’t want to eat, we didn’t have to. We ate whatever right out of an icebox. [laughs] With her it was the same time, every day, in my high chair. You know.

JULIE: And your brothers and sisters, what were they like?

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MICHAEL: Um, we ah, went home a lot by ourselves. And we’d get into mischief, so to say. Like I remember beating up my sister one time in the bathroom. And she gave me one hell of a fight. [laughs] Yeah, we were mean. Like if all, like if and four, well me and three of my sisters were at the park, and you were a full grown person- full grown, as long as we was past 11 years of age, then we didn’t have to be full grown. Three of my sisters and me at the park and you was coming, no matter what size, and you come and mess with us, you’d get whooped. Cause we would tag team you. [laughs]

JULIE: Yeah.

MICHAEL: We did, we ran the park. We didn’t, nobody would come to the park. I don’t know, I didn’t feel like I was thrown out in the cold then. But, I didn’t understand why either, I just,

JULIE: You didn’t understand what?

MICHAEL: Uh, why I had to stay with her and people lying on me and stuff.

JULIE: Lied on you, what do you mean?

MICHAEL: Well, they, they said that I was, that I did, that I said to the people she was babysitting that I didn’t have to do this because I uh, I didn’t have to uh do what, I could do whatever I want because I stay here and y’all just get babysat here. And whenever they said, people started lying on me, that’s when I did that to that baby. Cause I was mad.

JULIE: What were you mad about?

MICHAEL: Cause I got a whooping, because the people were saying that I said because I lived there I didn’t have to do what they told me.

JULIE: And who had given you the whooping?

MICHAEL: Nancy.

JULIE: Oh. What did she do?

MICHAEL: Just whooped me for no reason. And just because one of the parents of the kids said she heard me say I didn’t have to mind because I live here. And I didn’t even say that.

JULIE: Oh.

MICHAEL: Cause I didn’t want to live there no more, so I hurt the baby. And I made sure the baby’s sister seen it so she would tell.

JULIE: uh huh. Yeah. And, so what are the names of your sisters?

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MICHAEL: Alex, Jessica, Stephanie, and Carrie.

JULIE: Okay. And they’re all older than you.

MICHAEL: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: And then your two younger brothers are-

MICHAEL: Max and Dan

JULIE: Um, I was wondering, let’s see. Um, how old were you when you had that bus accident, with your mom?

MICHAEL: Um, [pause] that was the reason why they sent me. That was before I got sent to Nancy’s. That’s why they sent me.

JULIE: They sent you because of the bus accident?

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: What do you mean?

MICHAEL: My mom got her leg twisted around.

JULIE: And she couldn’t? And because she had her leg twisted around she couldn’t take care of you guys or?

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay.

MICHAEL: Making more sense now! You got my past un- unraveling, and I didn’t- didn’t even unravel it for me, didn’t ya! [laughs] That’s one of the reasons why they sent me. But they didn’t- that’s not – it didn’t have to be – I didn’t have to be sent.

JULIE: Yeah,

MICHAEL: I could’ve stayed at home. I mean, they would’ve gotten – my stepdad was there.

JULIE: Yeah. So I wonder what else it was.

MICHAEL: She just, it was easier for them because her leg was broken. Her leg got – her ankle got twisted around.

JULIE: Yeah.

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MICHAEL: Cause that’s why, they still threw me out in the cold, it’s just different reason. So I was seven, six and a half, seven, somewhere around there.

JULIE: You were six and a half- seven when?

MICHAEL: When I was in the bus accident.

JULIE: Okay. And after that is when you went to go live at Nancy’s.

MICHAEL: [nods]

JULIE: Okay. And you said your mom dated a lot of guys.

MICHAEL: Yeah, there was my dad, Jeremy, Vinnie, Jeremy- she went back to Jeremy, then there was, Adam, and now she’s with Phil. So in the past, she’s had more guys than I’ve had girlfriends. [laughs] I mean I’ve only had, well, about the same now, but I’m not as, I don’t have that many kids though. I only have one. I learned my lesson. [laughs]

JULIE: Yeah. What lesson did you learn?

MICHAEL: Well, not to have more than one kid if you can’t take care of him, you know.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. Your mom didn’t learn that lesson?

MICHAEL: Kind of backfired on her. She realizes it but, don’t know if bugs her or not. Not now though. It’s not that way now. Nobody- nobody uh treats my mom like crap. A- a- a guy bout backed up into my mom and my mom slammed on her brakes. And the guy um, cussed her out, and my nephew got out and told him, “Oh we’ll be back in about five minutes, just be right here.” And he went and got my brother, my other brother, two of my sisters and me, we all went over there. This guy runs and hides! [laughs] ____ marched right over there. Cause she got all of us, you know what I mean. There’s like seven of us, we marched over there. [laughs] It’s like, “what did you say to my mom?” “I didn’t say nothing man!”

JULIE: [laughs]

MICHAEL: And he getting attacked by women. Dang, that’d be a shame to get beat up by a woman. [laughs] Yeah, nobody says, it might’ve backfired on her when we was all young, but we all understand. And I understand why, but. It didn’t have to be, but I understand why. Some people, look at all the people over in different countries that are starving right now without food and stuff. I mean are they going to- you know some of them are probably mad about it. Most of them understand that hey- you’re going to die tomorrow. Why be mad about it.

JULIE: What did you say? Somebody said if you’re going to die tomorrow?

MICHAEL: No the people in foreign countries that are starving and have diseases- some of ‘em are saying, “Well, I’m mad because tomorrow I might die.” Or one of them might say, “Well,

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life didn’t give me the helping hand, but I’ll probably die tomorrow from a disease or starvation but that don’t mean I have to do it mad.” You know what I mean? They can pray to god and have a peaceful death. I don’t know how life is supposed to be, what’s supposed to be what. If it’s supposed to be fair or not. It might not’ve been fair for me, but it’s fair now and I’m happy with that.

JULIE: Okay.

MICHAEL: Cause my suicide attempts, I just don’t know why I do it.

JULIE: You said you tried to kill yourself again when you were twelve? Right? Or around that time?

MICHAEL: Age four, age- I’m trying to remember what I did. I’m trying to remember if that’s the time I jumped off the bridge, or

JULIE: You jumped off a bridge?

MICHAEL: ____ foot bridge down into the water. They found me um, before I came this time in the hospital, they found me floating in a field. Like the water, water built up in the field um, OD’d on a bunch of pills and was barely alive.

JULIE: Yeah. So after four years old, when was your next attempt?

MICHAEL: I think around 12, 13.

JULIE: And so that’s when you started living with your aunt and uncle.

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: I wonder why you wanted to kill yourself then.

MICHAEL: I don’t know. I don’t know what makes people want to kill themselves.

JULIE: What made you want to kill yourself?

MICHAEL: I wish I could tell you that I- I know, and I wish I could tell you I knew, but honest to god’s truth is I don’t know.

JULIE: Okay. I wonder what was so bad right then.

MICHAEL: Sometimes when I hear a song and the song’s real beautiful I think of suicide. Sometimes when I think of my past, I think of suicide. Sometimes when I think about all the wrong I done, I think of suicide. Sometimes when I, hear bad news I think of suicide.

JULIE: What from your past makes you think of suicide?

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MICHAEL: Like when I, when I hurt the little baby. And I um, hurt my brothers and my mom. Not so much physically, mentally or whatever. How I did my dad just cause it was $800 worth of knives. And, you know, stuff like that.

JULIE: Okay. And for your throat, you said you had to have surgeries? What was, can you tell me a little bit about wh-

MICHAEL: When I was three-

JULIE: When you were three-

MICHAEL: I had a soft palate.

JULIE: Yeah.

MICHAEL: That’s where they go in and repair the back of your throat so you can learn to talk. And all your fluids won’t drain through your ears. That’s where my mom was taking me, the day we was on the bus and got in the bus wreck. She was taking me to therapy.

JULIE: Speech therapy?

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay.

MICHAEL: Speech and ear therapy.

JULIE: Oh, ok. So what was that surgery like?

MICHAEL: Um, I’d like to say that’s the first time I met my creature friend. But, it was different.

JULIE: That was the first time you met your creature friends? But it was different? Can you say more about that?

MICHAEL: Well, the one that would do bad stuff to me, like, not so much a creature but more like, something that makes life more- more fun to live. Like, you you get put to sleep to have surgery, but then when you wake up it’s like ahhhhh. This is fun. Being alive is fun. You know, and so it’s kind of like a place you go, a dream world that you go and there’s creatures and stuff in it. But there’s bad creatures and good creatures though. And ___ I had an operation on my ear. I had an operation on my elbow. Three times that I had it, I always, you know, dream about the creatures and stuff.

JULIE: Dream about good creatures or bad creatures?

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MICHAEL: Sometimes they was good and sometimes they were bad. But I had several that I you know. The one that was uh, the one that- the bad creature, he- he kinda’ went away as I got older.

JULIE: When did he go away?

MICHAEL: Um, the one that would hurt me, when I was old enough to go up to an adult and say, “Hey, this is what’s happening. My legs hurt. What’s going on?” And I was old enough to wake up somebody in the middle of the night. You know when I was old enough to actually go and learn how to wake somebody up is when it stopped happening. Because then my mom would give me a Tylenol or Aspirin and my legs’ pain would clear.

JULIE: Oh ok.

MICHAEL: So what it was, it knew that I was able to wake my mom up and it quit coming around. But I still had the good creature friends that would, you know, be there whenever I’m under and just, you know make me feel like life is worth living. I think that’s one good thing about suicide is, after you attempt it and you live through it, the thrill of life is so much better. Like the sun’s a little bit brighter, the colors around you are a little bit brighter, the people have more use for you.

JULIE: Use for you?

MICHAEL: Yeah like, like, it’s like, wow, you know. But, I’m going to have to quit attempting suicide because I’m going to end up killing myself.

JULIE: Yeah. It’s interesting, you brought up suicide and near-death experiences around being put under for surgeries. Did they explain what was going to go on for you? Did anyone help you understand what the surgeries would be like?

MICHAEL: Just told me that. They said this is a doctor that- oh I went under recently with my broken nose.

JULIE: Oh ok.

MICHAEL: I got my nose crushed on that unit.

JULIE: But so, when you were little and you would go under, what was that like for you?

MICHAEL: I would dream and when I woke up I couldn’t remember anything. Just like as soon as I fell asleep I woke back up.

JULIE: Oh ok.

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MICHAEL: But I felt better because my drainage wasn’t in my ear no more. It was going down my throat like it’s supposed to. And I felt it was like- wow, I’m a new person. I still couldn’t talk that right, talk that good, but. Um, I felt better. It was like –wow, you know.

JULIE: I’m a new person?

MICHAEL: Well I was fixed. Before my ___ was letting my drainage go out my ears. And my ears hurt all the time because of that.

JULIE: Okay. Um, so you had the surgeries when you were three and ok.

MICHAEL: Well I had one when I was three, one when I was twelve.

JULIE: Twelve?

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: Uh huh. What was that one for?

MICHAEL: I had a broken arm.

JULIE: How’d you break your arm?

MICHAEL: Playing football.

JULIE: Oh okay.

MICHAEL: Then I had a surgery on my ear when I was twelve.

JULIE: Oh okay.

MICHAEL: So I had two surgeries when I was twelve. Actually I think I was 13 when I had my ear surgery. I had damage from my sister, was playing doctor and she poked a hole in my eardrum-

JULIE: Wow.

MICHAEL: with a metal- something, like a metal pen or something.

JULIE: So she’d play doctor with you? Did that involve anything sexual?

MICHAEL: Mmm, not that I can remember.

JULIE: Okay.

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MICHAEL: I had a hole in my eardrum for a long time. I- I finally, I still can’t hear 100% out of it. Like when I close this ear off, I can tell a difference that the sound is not there. But then I when I close this ear off, there’s not hardly any difference. So therefore this one’s not- I still hear out of it, it’s just not as good as I hear out of this one.

JULIE: Yeah. When the creatures would visit you- the creature would visit you at night, did it talk to you? Did it say anything?

MICHAEL: [shakes head no]

JULIE: Never said anything? Nah.

MICHAEL: It did a lot of pointing. Point at me, and that’s the scary part. [chuckles] It’d be like pointing at you, like “you’re next.” Or whatever, you know.

JULIE: And once you told your mom about it, it stopped coming around?

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: Uh huh. Oh, ok. Oh um, you mentioned, well last time you talked about your uncle threatening to kill you. When was the first time he did that?

MICHAEL: Um, it was towards the end of when I realized I couldn’t be around him anymore, because he knew he couldn’t whoop me so he started using a gun.

JULIE: What did he say to you? Can you tell me about that first time?

MICHAEL: He was on crack and he was like, needing money for cigarettes and crack and he wanted me to sell my guitar and I told him no. And he came in there with the gun and said, “Well I’m just going to shoot myself and you and you don’t care anyway so I might as well just shoot you and me.” He put the bullets in it and spin- it was the one of the kinds that spin around. And I told him, I was like, “ Whatever, then do what you gotta do.” And then he set the gun down and I went and hid the gun. And he came in there and he wanted, he showed me- told me to tell him where the gun’s at and I punched him real hard and he fell down. And he started bleeding. And then I gave the gun to my aunt when she came home and I said, “Next time he pulls it on me, I’m going to use it on him.” And I don’t know what she did with the gun, but he never had the gun no more.

JULIE: And that was the first time he threatened to kill you?

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay. How old were you?

MICHAEL: Ah, 16 or 17.

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JULIE: Okay.

MICHAEL: And um, my aunt got mad at me because he had to go get stitches across his eye from where I punched him. She thought I used unnecessary force. And I told her- “Hey I didn’t mean to hurt him. He shouldn’t have been pointing a gun in my face.”

JULIE: Yeah.

MICHAEL: You know, so I knew I was going to have to move out pretty soon because, we were working together at lawn company making money. He was wanting to smoke it up in crack, but you know, I knew I was going to have to you know move out because my aunt was getting mad at me because I was always beating him up because he was running his mouth you know, try to push his weight on me. And I told her, I said, “I’m not holding back for you no more. If he gonna pull a gun or punch me, I’m gonna punch him right back.” You know, and, so I lived with- I went and stayed with my mom then in a small town named Willowbrook Arkansas. And uh, at age 18 until we moved up here. I moved my mom up here and then my sister moved up here and my brothers moved up here. But um, not here- Dansville. And, life seemed it got better for everybody. I’m – I’m the only one left that life seems to have dragged down- out of all of it.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

MICHAEL: My sisters all have three babies, except the one that has some stuff going on right now where she got- her husband’s on the military base and she lives on the military base, and he was in the military spending all his time doing that and she was, working full time to try to pay the bills and they got neglect charges brought against them because my 16 year old niece was taking care of uh, a eight and a seven year old.

JULIE: Oh ok.

MICHAEL: So that’s the only sister right now that’s having problems with her kids.

JULIE: Yeah.

MICHAEL: My sister Stephanie has got three kids. She’s not having no problems. My sister Jessica, she’s the oldest of my mom’s kids and all her kids are, like, my niece she comes up here. She’s 18. Nephew- he’s 18. And Madison, she don’t have custody over her. She lives with her dad. So she don’t have any problems with her kids.

JULIE: And of your siblings, which ones are full ones and which ones are half? So,

MICHAEL: Not for sure.

JULIE: You’re not for sure?

MICHAEL: Yeah.

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JULIE: They could be- some might be full and some might be half.

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay.

MICHAEL: I know me Stephanie and Carrie came from my dad. But Dan___. And Jessica I think came from a guy, named Adam. But her son looks just like my dad. So there’s questions there. [laughs]

JULIE: Yeah. Not sure.

MICHAEL: She looks like Adam, but her son come out looking like me and my dad.

JULIE: Huh.

MICHAEL: So we’re not so sure if there’s

JULIE: Yeah. So you’ve mentioned several times that you’ve had a lot of scary things happen to you. And we’ve talked about a bunch of them. Are there other scary things that happened to you when you were little?

MICHAEL: [pause] Just the fear of darkness, of being in dark and um, always felt like there was always something there watching me. Even when there’s nothing around.

JULIE: What happened in the dark?

MICHAEL: Well, um just, I can’t say anything happened. I just, the fear of dark. I don’t know if that’s from when it all when down from when I was a ki- little little. Or if that’s something that’s just I’m going to have to deal with. I still have it today. Not – I had it in the hospital for a while but like, if I’m in the dark and I, I just have a feeling like something’s there or something’s watching me or- I don’t know.

JULIE: You said that- oh go ahead.

MICHAEL: I can’t explain it, it’s weird. It’s like, maybe I should just tell myself – yeah it’s god. [laughs] I don’t know. I mean I don’t believe in boogey- mans and I know there’s no bigfoot. [laughs]

JULIE: No bigfoot.

MICHAEL: You know some people know, do- do- do believe in that. I don’t.

JULIE: You said it might be from when you were little and all that went down.

MICHAEL: Yeah. I just, I don’t know.

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JULIE: What do you mean?

MICHAEL: I don’t like the sound of quietness. I like noise.

JULIE: What happened when there was quiet and darkness?

MICHAEL: Like if it’s real quiet and it’s real dark, you can’t see. And you hear a little sound, makes you wonder- what was that? I’m telling you – see that’s the momma of that nest up there. {there were birds tending to there nests nearby}

JULIE: Okay. So what went down when you were little?

MICHAEL: Um, I think I just about told you everything.

JULIE: Okay. Cause you said your fear of the dark might have to do with what went down when you were little.

MICHAEL: You know we were talking about like with the, um, the creatures and, stuff. The creatures, I mean, pointing and me and uh, hurting my legs.

JULIE: Yeah. Any other stuff that happened like the creatures?

MICHAEL: Um, no they would just come point at me. And then particularly one bald, big eyes, with fangs would uh, would uh, (an ant is trying to crawl on me.) {We were sitting outside for the interview.} Would uh, pick me up and then we would go somewhere. I can’t remember where we would go but he would- we would fall, it seemed like from a high distance.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

MICHAEL: And then I would wake up crying and then my legs would hurt. And I would be walking around and there would be nobody there to help me.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. You were all alone.

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay. Um, and one thing we haven’t talked about is sexual abuse.

MICHAEL: I don’t think there was any sexual abuse. A lot more physical, violent than sexual. At least I can say that.

JULIE: There was no sexual abuse?

MICHAEL: [shakes head no]

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JULIE: No.

MICHAEL: I would know.

JULIE: Yeah. Okay. Um, I was wondering, can you remember a time recently when you were angry at someone.

MICHAEL: Yeah! In here.

JULIE: Okay, who were you angry with?

MICHAEL: Just peop- aw man, it’s day to day, conf- it’s a day to day conflict for me not to go off on some of the people in here.

JULIE: What happens- so can you think of a specific example?

MICHAEL: People just being rude. And like um, there’s a guy he don’t know how to keep me out of his mouth. He’s always got something smart to say. And there’s always somebody that got something smart to say. And, treatment told me, you know treatment team they meet down there at the end of the hall.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

MICHAEL: They told me I have to go two months without, they got me on a violent thing because I broke a chair. I’ve been in two fights, broke a chair, and they got me on a two month thing. I have to go two months without getting into a fight before I can get discharged.

JULIE: Oh okay.

MICHAEL: So I’m on this two months and I’m like on a month and a half, at the end of this month it’s over. Man! [laughs] I just want to- I told ‘em, I said well, can I get a punching bag or something. I- I don’t know.

JULIE: What happens for you when you get angry at someone, can you think of a specific, one specific example.

MICHAEL: I just want to tell them off. Be like, “look dude, keep me out of your mouth.” I don’t sit around and say shit about you, I expect the same thing back. I don’t sit there and, people think they know everything about you just cause they’ve known you for a month or two. In the real world it takes more than a month or two before you know somebody.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. Yeah, so someone who really knows you.

MICHAEL: Nobody in here really knows me cause I act different when I’m here.

JULIE: Oh okay.

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MICHAEL: And I hate it whenever the clients, they- they seem to have their own little group. Like they’ll be like four or five of em that think that they have a little group that’s better than the rest of ‘em. But like, say, one of us needs a dollar fifty, and they’re like, “No. We can’t give you it.” And then someone they like come along- “Can I get a couple dollars?” “Yeah.” It’s like well why didn’t, if they only loan out money to certain people, you shouldn’t loan out to anyone then. They pick and choose who they like and don’t like. You shouldn’t- you shouldn’t be in here to pick and choose who you like, you should be in here to take care of your business and get out. You know what I mean? I don’t like no one here. [laughs] I mean, that’s- that’s- my my attitude to have. I’m not here to make friends. I came here to work on my issues. But now I’m learning I have to make friends. And I have to like somebody, but I still don’t like nobody.

JULIE: What about outside of here?

MICHAEL: I don’t like nobody.

JULIE: No? Don’t like nobody? [pause]

MICHAEL: Cause it seems like the ones that are your friends now end up being the ones that aren’t your friends. And the ones that’s not your friends then, end up being your friends now. And then it will switch again. The ones that end up being your friends now were not your friends then. So it just switches back and forth constantly. Back and forth. Like you, you’ve probably had friends that you’ve had for months and months, maybe years and they’re still your friends. That’s not how it works for me. Whoever is not my friend today, tomorrow might not- whoever is not my friend today, tomorrow might be my friend. And whoever is my friend today- backwards, you know what I’m trying to say.

JULIE: Might not be your friend tomorrow.

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: Uh huh. So you can’t count on

MICHAEL: I can’t count on friends. Because to me, it switches back and forth. So I don’t like nobody because of that fact.

JULIE: Mmm. Is it like that with your family too?

MICHAEL: No, not my mom and brothers and sisters.

JULIE: Can you count on them?

MICHAEL: My mom, my sisters, my niece and nephews- yeah. My two brothers- no. If I called my brother and said, “Hey would you like to come and visit me?” He’ll say, “Yeah” but he won’t come. And he’s gay too, so, I’m really against gay people. Cause I like girls and he likes guys. I haven’t even called him in forever. I haven’t called him in like three months.

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JULIE: And so you said, your mom and your sisters you can count on.

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: Do you like them?

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay. Have you been mad at them recently?

MICHAEL: My mom and sisters and niece and nephews? I ain’t never been mad at my niece and nephews. I never had one, other than my nephew when he was a little kid he wiped poop on his wall, but other than that I ain’t- he don’t even probably remember it. I ain’t never been mad at my niece and nephews or my sister in a long time.

JULIE: When you were mad at them, what was that- can you tell me about that?

MICHAEL: My sister? Probably over something stupid, a boyfriend she had or, something because they used to sneak their boyfriends in the window and I used to tell my stepdad, that they got punks sneaking in the window. And then we moved out of the house, and the punks came back and wrote my name and set the house on fire. And the fire department called me.

JULIE: Wow. They wrote your name and set the house on fire?

MICHAEL: Yeah.

JULIE: Is it time for dinner?

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Appendix J

Transcripts of Interviews with Cara

[“Mm-hmmm,” indicates yes or agreement. “Mm-mm,” indicates no or disagreement.]

First Interview with Cara

JULIE: I thought we could start with how did you end up in Woodside State Hospital?

CARA: Um, I was walking by a bridge and I got onto this person's car and I, uh, said that I was gonna jump off the bridge and kill myself. And there was a guy. I don't even know his name but he called the police on me and he said – told them that I was gonna jump off the bridge. And then he let me out of the car and I was walking back across the bridge to find a place to jump from. And then a – several police cars showed up and saw me.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: And they took me to Riverside Hospital.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

CARA: And then from Riverside Hospital I stayed from October 7th, the day before my birthday, until October 31st and then I came here October 31st.

JULIE: Okay. And what had led up to wanting to kill yourself?

CARA: Um, I had been hospitalized several different times. I'd had nervous breakdowns and I did drugs, several different kinds of drugs. And, um, my son was in my, uh, ex’s custody. So he lives with his dad now. So I was just really depressed.

JULIE: Yeah. How old is your son?

CARA: He's 11, getting ready to turn 12.

JULIE: Wow, and it's just him? Or do you have any other children?

CARA: I have a daughter and she lives with her dad. But I'm dating her dad now and –

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: When I move out into my own apartment her dad and she are going to live with me.

JULIE: Oh that's great. Yeah. So your son is with a different dad? Is that -?

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

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JULIE: Okay, that makes sense. How old is your daughter? She's –

CARA: She's eight, getting ready to turn nine.

JULIE: Okay. That's great.

CARA: Yeah. They're good kids.

JULIE: Good, I'm glad. Um, I was wondering – So then when did your – You said you've been hospitalized a few times?

CARA: Yeah. I'm not sure how many. I didn't count –

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: but it was multiple times.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: I had done heroin and somebody mixed in with the heroin bath salts and it made me have a psychotic break.

JULIE: When was that?

CARA: Um, last spring.

JULIE: Okay. Was that your first psychotic break?

CARA: No.

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: I had overdosed on Lortabs and I had a psychotic break from that.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: I was talking to people that weren't there and I was seeing things that weren't there.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

CARA: I was in bad shape.

JULIE: When was that?

CARA: I think last spring –

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JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: or at the end of winter.

JULIE: It's been a rough –

CARA: I had a –

JULIE: year.

CARA: Yeah I've had a bad year.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: I'm doing a lot better now. I'm stable.

JULIE: Good.

CARA: And I'm not psychotic, and I don't hear voices.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

CARA: I'm doing pretty well.

JULIE: Good. I'm really glad to hear that.

CARA: Thanks.

JULIE: Yeah. When did all of your psychological difficulties start?

CARA: When I was 14.

JULIE: What happened then?

CARA: Um, I was severely depressed and I was – I had insomnia and my mom gave me Benadryl to help me sleep. And then when she wasn't around I started taking a whole bunch of the Benadryl and it still didn't help me sleep. And I, uh, had a breakdown at school. I was crying uncontrollably and I wouldn't go to class. And I got up and left class and-and went down to the guidance counselor. And she's the one that had been giving me counseling because my step-dad was a bad, abusive alcoholic.

JULIE: Mmm.

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CARA: And my mom had to do all the work around the house and she had to take care of me and my brother. So she was under a lot of stress. And then finally my mom took me, with the counselor from school, to a children's hospital, to the psych ward.

JULIE: Mmm. Wow, you must've been really upset.

CARA: Yeah I was. And my mom, she was pretty sad and stressed out and worried about me.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm, yeah. And you said you were – you couldn't sleep?

CARA: Mm-mm.

JULIE: What was – What was keeping you from sleeping?

CARA: Um, I didn't know it then but I was bipolar and I was in a manic state.

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: I found out later about the cycles of bipolar –

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

CARA: and the manic to the depressed.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm, and does that fit with your experience, that diagnosis?

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: It does. I didn't become schizoaffective until I was this age and I was hearing voices and that was just about it. I was hearing voices and I was hearing, um, codes in songs. Like, there's this one code in a song that told me to stab my boyfriend.

JULIE: Hmm.

CARA: It went by. It was a song playing and it said, "Stab him. Stab him.” And then there was this other song that went by that was talking about me. It said, "Bitch has AIDS. Bitch has AIDS."

JULIE: Wow.

CARA: And for the longest time I believed I had AIDS or HIV because of that music that I heard. And I-I demanded an AIDS test up at the hospital before I came here.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

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CARA: And thank God it was negative.

JULIE: Oh good, yeah. Wow, so when did you start hearing the voices?

CARA: Um, this year.

JULIE: Okay, s-

CARA: Well not in 2012. It was 2011.

JULIE: Okay. So up until then you'd just been bipolar and that's when –

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: and that's when the schizoaffective kicked in?

CARA: Mm-hmmm, yeah.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: The drugs kicked it in.

JULIE: Oh, the drugs did, okay.

CARA: Yeah, I-I'd done several drugs.

JULIE: Uh-huh. What did you hear the voices say? Or what, eh -?

CARA: Just what I told you.

JULIE: Oh, just those codes?

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: The "Stab him," and then, "Bitch has AIDS"?

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay. Um, did you recognize the voices?

CARA: No.

JULIE: They were unfamiliar?

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CARA: No. Yeah, th-they weren't like family members or friends or anything like that. They were just like – They sounded like regular songs –

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

CARA: but like they had been specially made to send out those messages.

JULIE: Okay. And that was the only sort of voices you heard?

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Oh okay. How did you react to hearing them?

CARA: I was scared.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: And I was confused. I just couldn't believe that music would say things like that to me because I would use, um, music to drown people out when they would talk about me. Or I thought that everyone talked about me. I thought people in my neighborhood talked about me, so I would blare the radio and crank up the TV to drown it out.

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: So I was pretty much paranoid too.

JULIE: Oh. What were – So what were you worried about?

CARA: Just people talking about me.

JULIE: Anything in particular that they would say?

CARA: No, mm-mm.

JULIE: Were-were they plotting against you or anything like that?

CARA: No I just thought everybody was talking about me –

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: talking bad stuff about me.

JULIE: That'd be pretty uncomfortable.

CARA: Yeah it was.

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JULIE: Mm-hmmm. When did that start?

CARA: Um, just this past summer – er the summer of 2011 I mean.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: I didn't have a good year in 2010 or 2011.

JULIE: What -?

CARA: They were probably the worst two years of my life.

JULIE: What happened?

CARA: In 2010 I, uh, broke up with this man that was an abusive alcoholic. And my son had an outburst at school and the school sent him to a child's psychiatric unit in Newcastle.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

CARA: And, uh, my apartment was broken into and my money and my medications were stolen. And, um, that was 2010.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

CARA: And that man would, um, he would stalk me later on.

JULIE: That boyfriend?

CARA: Yeah, he-he would follow me around and sneak up on me and stuff and stare at me.

JULIE: Oh.

CARA: And, uh, my son even noticed it.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

CARA: That's how bad it was. And my son was only ten then.

JULIE: Hmm.

CARA: And then, uh, I got with my boyfriend that got me into the Lortabs and uh, he was – he was pretty good to me at first. And then later on in 2011 he started cheating on me.

JULIE: Hmm.

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CARA: He uh – He would say mean things to me like about my family members, that he had slept with my sister and my cousin. And he didn't even know the cousin. She didn't even know him. And of course he – my sister wouldn't sleep with him. She wouldn't do anything like that to me. And he wiped-wiped himself, you know after using the bathroom, on a pair of pants I had. He peed on a pair of pants I had. He ripped up my pictures. He smashed up my dishes. And he burnt me on the foot with a crack pipe.

JULIE: Wow.

CARA: So he was pretty abusive.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: And he – Did I say he cheated on me too?

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: Yeah he cheated on me with somebody that wasn't my family member.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: And so I finally moved out of his house and um, right after that I went to the hospital.

JULIE: Okay. Um –

CARA: So I'm hoping this year will be better –

JULIE: Yeah, me too.

CARA: after I get out of the hospital.

JULIE: Yeah, um –

CARA: Because my daughter's dad is –

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

CARA: He's really good to me.

JULIE: Good.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: How did you meet him?

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CARA: I met him in 2001. He came over to my house and, I hate to say this but, he smoked pot with me and my boyfriend. And he, uh – My son – We didn't smoke the pot around the baby. But when we were done smoking my son was sitting on my bed. And he was a little baby. He was about a year old. He started playing with him and I said, "Watch it that he doesn't fall off that bed and hit his head.”

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

CARA: He goes, "Oh I got it.” He goes, "I got this. I'm good with kids. Kids love me.” And he played with him and then he-he – There was a small air conditioner in my window and my boyfriend at the time was a deadbeat. And he wouldn't take out the air conditioner. And I had these people in my apartment. Nobody would help me with my air conditioner, because I was griping about it to my best friend Jennifer. And he goes, "Hang on just a minute.” And, uh, I held his cigarette for him and he took out my air conditioner out of the window. And then he shook my hand and he said, "Hi my name's Tom Jones.” He's like, "Nice to meet ya.” And that was when he borrowed a CD from me that he didn't even like. He just wanted an excuse to come back to my apartment to talk to me and give back the CD.

JULIE: Wow.

CARA: And then from on we-we've just been together. So it – We've been together since 2001 but we've broke up off and on.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: And I've told him since we have been back together this time I told him, "I have definitely learned my lesson. I'm not gonna cheat on you and I'm not gonna ever leave you again."

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

CARA: And I told him that I loved him and I wanted to be with him.

JULIE: That sounds wonderful.

CARA: Yeah, I think we're gonna get married too. He won't talk about it over the phone.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

CARA: He insists upon talking to me in person about it because he said, "It's not personal. That's something you don't talk about over the phone."

JULIE: Mm-hmmm, that makes sense to me.

CARA: [laughs] Yeah.

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JULIE: Mm-hmmm, yeah.

CARA: He's good to me.

JULIE: Good. What happened with the break ups?

CARA: Well, I don't think I was ready to settle down yet.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

CARA: I had – you know, had children when I was young and I don't think I was ready to become a mom or become a wife or a s-stable, steady girlfriend. So I would break up with him and go out with other people.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

CARA: But we had our problems. Like he squandered the money a lot. Like he would spend a-a lot of money on pot and he would play games all the time. He didn't help me clean the house. All he did was cook. So it got really frustrating. So there was a bunch of little things that made me wanna leave him.

JULIE: Yeah, okay.

CARA: But he-he's always treated me the best. He-he's been very loving and patient. And he's the one I always go back to.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm, yeah. It sounds like he's the one you'll end up with.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. I'm curious. When you were hearing the voice that said, "Stab him. Stab him," was – Who were you dating at the time?

CARA: Mike.

JULIE: Okay, wh –

CARA: He was the one that –

JULIE: Burnt.

CARA: burnt – yeah, burnt my food with the crack pipe.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: He's stolen like $400 off of me total. $200 each time.

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JULIE: Oh. And so, were you angry at him?

CARA: No I wasn't. I don't know why I heard that message. I wasn't angry. I was –

JULIE: Were you -?

CARA: confused.

JULIE: You were confused?

CARA: I was scared.

JULIE: Scared? What were you scared of?

CARA: I was depressed and nervous. I was scared to hear those messages in the music.

JULIE: Yeah, okay.

CARA: I even heard this one – Because for a short time there I thought my boyfriend was an undercover cop.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm, Mike?

CARA: I heard – Yeah I heard this one go by and it said, "This is unprofessional."

JULIE: Hmm.

CARA: Like the police were giving him a code and the music for him to hear what I heard.

JULIE: Oh.

CARA: Yeah. I know, it's horrible.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: I was psychotic.

JULIE: Were you scared of him?

CARA: Mm-hmmm. Yeah I was scared of him. I felt – Like when we moved to the next apartment - I didn't have anywhere to go because my mom couldn't let me live with her because her apartment was an efficiency apartment and it was way too small. And, uh, my sister has a fiancé and you know she has her own life. She works and stuff so I couldn't stay with her either.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

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CARA: When he stole that $200.00 from me I didn't have enough money to get my own apartment so I had to stay with him for a month. And I was scared of him because of all those bizarre things he had done. Oh, and he bit me on the arm too. He-he'd just done strange things. So I would sweep his floor with a broom. It was carpet but that's all we had was a broom. So I'd sweep the floor. I'd sweep and mop the linoleum. I'd clean the bathroom, you know, clean the toilet, the shower, the sink. I'd clean the kitchen, the cupboards, wash the dishes, cook, clean the fridge, and do his laundry. I mean I would do everything around the household. And I even shaved his face for him.

JULIE: Wow.

CARA: And I-I think he liked – 'cause he already had a girlfriend.

JULIE: Oh.

CARA: Well he was cheating on me with a girlfriend.

JULIE: Oh, okay.

CARA: So he basically had two girlfriends: me and her. I think he liked having his cake and eat it to, so to speak with you know the girlfriend and me. And he liked how I would – I was basically a slave.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: You know? I was the housekeeper, you know, the cook. I'd do everything for him. So I think he liked attention from her and then the attention that I gave him plus doing all the housework.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. And how did he feel about you wanting to leave? Did he -?

CARA: He wanted me to stay.

JULIE: Okay. Did he threaten you or anything?

CARA: No.

JULIE: Oh okay. But it sounds like with all of his strange behavior it would – you might have been understandingly very concerned about what he would do next –

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: and what he was capable of.

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CARA: Yeah I was kind of worried because I thought he would get his friends to assault me or his girlfriend would assault me. I didn't even put it past him for him to, you know, abuse me either.

JULIE: Did he ever abuse you in-in any other ways than the ones you just talked about?

CARA: No.

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: Just like verbally abused.

JULIE: Oh, he would call you names and things?

CARA: Yeah, mm-hmmm.

JULIE: I'm sorry. Mm-hmmm. So –

CARA: I was with him about a year and a half.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: He was – He was normal when we first started out together.

JULIE: Uh-huh.

CARA: I mean he didn't things like that and he was good to me you know? He cooked. I cleaned. He went to the store. He-he was really decent to me. And I can't -

JULIE: Sounds like –

CARA: Yeah I can't understand why he changed.

JULIE: Did he – How quickly did the change happen? Was it gradual or -?

CARA: Over several months.

JULIE: Over several months okay.

CARA: In the time that I kept going to the hospital.

JULIE: Oh. You kept going to the hospital?

CARA: Maybe he blamed me for it.

JULIE: You kept going to the hospital?

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CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: For -?

CARA: For my mental illness.

JULIE: Oh okay. What would happen?

CARA: Well, I'd start acting funny and I would get really mean with him and my mom. And then my mom would take me in the car and she'd make sure that I checked in at the hospital in the psych unit.

JULIE: And then what would they – How long would they keep you?

CARA: Um, sometimes two weeks.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. So you were sort of in and out?

CARA: Yeah, mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Okay. So going back to – So the first time you got hospitalized was when you were 14?

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Since then what-what happened?

CARA: I've been hospitalized several times when I was a teenager. After I was 14 it was like almost every year or every winter until I was 17, either in the winter or the spring because I would cycle. I would be really happy and manic during the spring and summer and then s- severely depressed and sometimes suicidal during the fall and winter.

JULIE: Hmm.

CARA: And one time I was, uh, psychotic, like I believed I was a vampire and, um, I would suck people's life forces out of them, like their souls. And, uh, I believed I had like acid in my mouth and could spit in pop cans and make them dissolve. And that's when they diagnosed me schizoaffective, but I wasn't.

JULIE: Oh.

CARA: It was just from staying up for days up days –

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: and smoking weed and drinking.

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JULIE: Okay.

CARA: And so that made me psychotic.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm, when was that? That was -?

CARA: That was when I was 16.

JULIE: Okay, so you thought that you could suck the life force out of people?

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Wow. Well how did you feel about that? Was it exciting to you or scary or -?

CARA: It was exciting. I thought it was like a power I had. You know, how it says in like information on bipolar and schizoaffective people; we believe in, uh – that some of us have special powers. Have you read that?

JULIE: I haven't.

CARA: Oh.

JULIE: I don't where that – In the -?

CARA: It's called the –

JULIE: You mean like the Diagnostic Manual?

CARA: It-It's – Yeah, it's called the grandiosity.

JULIE: Oh yeah.

CARA: That's what I'm talking about.

JULIE: Okay, yeah.

CARA: Yep.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

CARA: And then one time [coughs] I found out my boyfriend – This happened when I was 15. I found out my boyfriend was cheating on me at the time so I went in his house and I took like three handfuls of Tylenols. And they had to pump my stomach and then I went to the psych ward.

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JULIE: When was that?

CARA: In '95. I was 15.

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: How did – So how did you feel when you found out he was cheating on you?

CARA: I felt like my whole world had come to an end.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. Did it feel -? How did you feel about yourself?

CARA: I hated myself and I wanted to die.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: I thought there must be something wrong me and that's why he cheated on me.

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: I didn't know enough about men to realize that sometimes they just do that. You know?

JULIE: Mm-hmmm, yeah. Um, you said that during the spring/summer you'd be up and the fall/winter you'd be down.

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Any reasons why you think you – that was your cycle?

CARA: No. I don't know. My mom said she, uh, in the fall she feels like she gets depressed and she feels like running away. So maybe I inherited the seasonal from her. And then I know I inherited the bipolar from my father because he was diagnosed manic depressive –

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: in the '70's and '80's before it became political correct to call it bipolar.

JULIE: Gotcha.

CARA: And his dad was manic depressive too. His dad was on Thorazine. And he had electroshock therapy too.

JULIE: Wow.

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CARA: And my dad was on Thorazine and Lithium at different times. And they put him the state hospital here. They put him here.

JULIE: Woodside?

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Oh wow.

CARA: And, uh, he almost died from an overdose of, uh, um, Lithium.

JULIE: Wow.

CARA: So years later he stopped taking his medicine and nobody wanted to be around him because he was kind of violent. And he died when I was 18 of a burst aorta. And they didn't know he had died and they found him three days later by the smell.

JULIE: Oh wow.

CARA: I didn't even know what he looked like. The last time I seen him I was 10.

JULIE: Uh-huh.

CARA: Because my mom and dad got a divorce when I was six.

JULIE: Oh okay. What was he like when you were little?

CARA: I was afraid of him.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: Sometimes, like when I was real little, I remember being afraid of him because he had picked up a floor model TV, you know one of those big screen ones, and threw it out in the road. And, um, when he lived by himself and he was with my – and he wasn't with my mom he would come to get me and my brother. And we would spend time with him. Like we would go fishing. We'd have cookouts. We'd do fireworks. So he had some – We had some good times with him.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. And so s-sometimes you were afraid of him but other times you had good times with him?

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: Yep.

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JULIE: What else – Did he do other things that were scary?

CARA: Uh, one time when he saw my brother out across at this playground across from my grandma's house – I went inside but my brother stayed out and talked to him, because I didn't want to have anything to do with him. And he grabbed my brother by the shoulders and my brother was crying. And he shook him and he bruised his shoulders and his arms. And he asked him, "Why haven't you been writing me?" And-And he left after that and my mom called the police on him. But I don't think anything happened.

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: Nothing came of it.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. So you remember him throwing the TV outside and -?

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: How – Why did he and your mom get divorced?

CARA: Because he wouldn't stay on his medications.

JULIE: Oh.

CARA: He didn't – He couldn't hold a job hardly.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

CARA: I guess he was violent towards her too.

JULIE: Do you remember that?

CARA: No I don't remember it. And I don't remember her ever getting beat or anything. But I think he was just loud. He didn't beat her. He-They probably yelled at each other quite a bit.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm, but you don't remember?

CARA: No.

JULIE: Okay. What else do you remember from your childhood?

CARA: Um, I remember we lived in this big, cold house and my mom had to chop wood and she had to keep it in the basement. And me and my brother asked her why she kept going down to the basement. She said she had a boyfriend down there. [laughs]

JULIE: [laughs] That's funny.

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CARA: [laughs] Yeah. I think we believed her [laughs] because we were real little. [laughs]

JULIE: Did you go looking for her?

CARA: No we didn't go down there. [laughs] We weren't allowed down there because it – we could've fallen down the steps –

JULIE: Oh.

CARA: and it was dangerous.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: But that's funny that she said that. [laughs]

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: She was funny. She's still funny. I love my mom. I have a good relationship with her.

JULIE: That's good.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: What was she like when you were little?

CARA: She used to work a lot. She stilled works a lot. She's a Nursing Assistant. And I remember she used to have really long hair and it was brownish-blond and she had glasses and she was a good mom. She smacked us in the face though, which was bad about her parenting. But other than that she was a really good mom because I remember one time I got my feelings hurt by my step-dad and I stayed in bed and I kept crying and crying. And I wouldn't come out of bed. And she-she got me up and she put makeup on me and fixed my hair and she made me feel better.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

CARA: So I stayed out of bed. And she'd do things like that to keep us from getting in trouble by our step-dad –

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: because he would beat us – beat us with a belt.

JULIE: Oh okay. When did, um – Well I guess – I want to hear more about him, but first, when would your mom smack you across the face?

CARA: Um, [clears throat] if me and my brother were fighting or if I back-talked her.

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JULIE: Mm-hmmm, okay. So you knew when it was coming. It would be sort of a punishment?

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Were you afraid of her?

CARA: No.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: I guess I felt that I deserved it.

JULIE: You knew you had done something wrong when she smacked you?

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: And so when did she get involved with your step-dad?

CARA: I was eight.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: [coughs] They're not together anymore. They got a divorce. I still consider him my dad though. He was really the only dad I had growing up because I didn't get to see my real dad very much. But, um, I call him my step-dad still even though they're divorced. But to me, he's my dad. And he lives in Indiana right now. He had, uh, tongue cancer and he got it – I guess he got his tongue operated – operated on. And it's in remission now. And he also had a stent put into his heart.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: Because he's in his – My mom's 58 so he has to be 59 or 60.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm, okay.

CARA: He gave up drinking. He was a real bad alcoholic and I guess last year or the year before he was in the VA –

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JULIE: Getting help.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: To quit drinking.

JULIE: Uh-huh.

CARA: So he's not drinking anymore. He's got a girlfriend and her name's Betty. And, um, she's like probably 45. She's real young. He didn't need to get with somebody that long – that young, but when he was drinking and he saw her at the bar and they started talking he just got with her and he didn't realize she was that young. And so he stayed with her anyway and that she was really young. Because she's not that much older than my sister. My sister's 39.

JULIE: Oh okay. So is your – It's your sister, you, and your brother?

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. My sister isn't from the same dad though.

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: My mom was married to her dad about seven years before she got with mine.

JULIE: Okay so she's been married three times.

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: Or actually more like five. She's been married five times: twice to my step-dad, once to this gay man. She didn't know he was gay until after she got with him. Once to my dad and once to my sister's dad.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: So she's been married like five times.

JULIE: That's a fair number of marriages.

CARA: Mm-hmmm, I don't like it.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: I wish she hadn't of gotten married so many times. I think it's embarrassing.

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JULIE: Oh.

CARA: I never would've gotten married that many times.

JULIE: What-What do you make of it? Why do you think she ended up getting married so many times?

CARA: I think she was insecure and lonely. She was looking for the right one and she never found him. But we had a dysfunctional family when I was little.

JULIE: What do you mean?

CARA: Well, my mom would kick my step-dad out and then bring him back in to live with her and then kick her – kick him out again and then bring him back to live with us. And, uh, one time he broke her ankle. And it was in the winter time and I had to walk like 14 blocks to the police station and I was only like ten.

JULIE: That sounds really scary.

CARA: Yeah, it was.

JULIE: So he was violent?

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: He would beat her?

CARA: Yeah, and he beat my brother. And sometimes he would spank me with a belt but I can't remember it as much as my brother can. I don't think he, uh, beat me as much as he did my brother. I was his pet.

JULIE: Oh.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: What do you mean -? So tell me more about being his pet.

CARA: I was his favorite. He-he would – I would always talk to him after school and when he would pick me up from school. And he taught me how to braid hair on my Barbies and my ponies. And he would cook special meals for me that I liked. And I would always spend time with him and I was – I was just little and I was a chatterbox and I talked to him constantly and hang around with him. I-I loved my step-dad.

JULIE: Yeah.

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CARA: And so I guess I hardly ever got beat or yelled at or anything like that. I was his favorite.

JULIE: So it was like the storm would go around but it wouldn't touch you.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: I couldn't stand the yelling through, how they would fight and how she would kick him out and then bring him back and –

JULIE: Why would she kick him out?

CARA: Because he wouldn't stop drinking.

JULIE: Oh.

CARA: But he did abuse me one time when I was 17. I had gotten older and I had become sexually active and-and I wanted a baby. And he knew it. He knew that I was sexually active and he hated it. And he wanted me to stop it. And I told him, "It's my body and it's my choice.” And, uh, I was staying there when I was 17 and I didn't eat all my peas. And I had to throw them away. And he got mad and he said, "Well you're gonna do the dishes for a week.” And I said, "I do them any – every day anyway."

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

CARA: And my nephew was there. And my nephew was maybe six or five. And he goes, "You go to your room right now.” And I wa-was walking back to my room and I made it to my room and my step-dad grabbed me by the shoulder and he grabbed me so hard it snapped my bra strap. And he left a big bruise on my chest. Er, like where my chest and my shoulder meet from his arm – from his hand because he grabbed me real hard. And he – He, uh, uh, like beat my head into the wall, the top of my head. And then he smacked me in the face. And my brother was there. And my brother came in on it and he punched him in the back. My brother punched my step-dad in the back. And, um, I yelled at – And my mom finally came in and got between Bill and me and my brother. And I told him, “You have no right to put your hands on my body. You have no right to-to abuse me or touch me like that.” And, um, I went to the police station and I made a report. And they put me in a foster home.

JULIE: Wow. Good for you.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: That took a lot of courage.

CARA: Yeah. And then I went – I went to live with my grandma and I came back to Woodside for my last Snack Shop check. It was like this convenience store that cars drive through to pick

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up milk and candy and cigarettes. And I worked there and I picked up my last check and I got a ticket for Cincinnati, Ohio And I, um, took a bus to Cincinnati, Ohio and I ran away. And I was passing through Columbus when I came back to visit – to go back to my grandma's. And my grandma gave me enough money for food for a few days and she gave me my birth certificate and all my clothes and stuff and I went back to Columbus. And I lived in Columbus about four or five months on the streets.

JULIE: And you were -? How old were you?

CARA: Seventeen.

JULIE: Why did your grandma – Why did she send you back, or send you out?

CARA: She knew that she couldn't stop me from running away.

JULIE: Why did you run -?

CARA: So she did the next best thing. She gave me some money –

JULIE: Uh-huh.

CARA: for food and gave me my clothes and like toiletries and stuff.

JULIE: Wow, yeah.

CARA: You know, deodorant and soap and –

JULIE: Yeah, so how come you were gonna run away?

CARA: Because I had to go back to my step-dad and mom's and I didn't wanna go around him.

JULIE: Oh I understand. You were supposed to go back to them –

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: and then you ran -? I see, rather than go back.

CARA: Yeah. And then I had – That was when I was 17 and – No I think I had just turned 18. Yeah my dad had died when I was 18 and I had the biggest mental relapse ever. I was walking barefoot with bloody feet in the snow because I had been on my legs so much. And I – For some reason – I was trying to get back over to Columbus but this guy picked me up in a car and I think I went to Columbus or in Cincinnati. He left me at a truck stop. And I told them because I didn't have a coat and I didn't have shoes for my feet or anything. I banged on this McDonalds window and I said, "I need medical attention," and I passed out in the bathroom on the floor. And, uh, they took me to Riverside Hospital and I was there probably about two months. And then I went

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back to live with my grandma. And I got in with Recovery Center. And they helped me get my check and they got me in my own apartment.

JULIE: Hmm. That's good.

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Yeah, so it sounds like right after your dad passed away you had a big relapse.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: What do you think the connection is there?

CARA: I wasn't on medication.

JULIE: Oh okay. Mm-hmmm.

CARA: And I didn't have any place to live. I was at a shelter.

JULIE: Oh okay. Um, how did you feel about your dad dying?

CARA: It was really upsetting.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: For years I hung onto it and it hurt me because it was around Thanksgiving. And I hated Thanksgiving because of that. And just now is like – This is like the only time that I can talk – Well I've talked about it several times. I think last year was when I really felt closure about my dad dying.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: Because for years I used to be so sad and distraught about it.

JULIE: That you missed him or that -?

CARA: That I missed out on him.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: Because I missed so much growing up that I didn't know him, that I didn't get to see him. I had no relationship with him and that's what I miss.

JULIE: Yeah.

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CARA: And that I was turned – I had just turned 18 and I had the responsibility of signing the cremation papers.

[Break]

JULIE: So you were talking about – oh yeah, your dad and how you missed out on him.

CARA: Mm-hmmm. Well I'm glad I have my brother because that's a part of my dad that I'll always have and he'll always be with me.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: We're pretty close.

JULIE: How old is he?

CARA: Um, he's 30. He, uh, started doing drugs too. He started doing heroin and Klonopin. And, I think he had gotten something bad in a dose of heroin and, uh, it damaged his brain because he talks to himself now and he believes in things that aren't true. And he's in jail right now. He's gonna do from eight to 20 years because he let these guys live with him. And they were – They had just gotten out of prison and they were Arians. And they were like really bad people. And when he found out how – what kind of people they were he kicked them out. And then his home caught on fire and the police pinned it on him. So he's in jail now and like he'll sit there and he'll talk to ya and then he'll turn to the side and he'll talk to somebody who's not there.

JULIE: Oh.

CARA: And then he'll start talking to – back to you. And then he even told my mom that she didn't have any kidneys and that she had Alzheimer's.

JULIE: Oh dear.

CARA: So he believes in things that aren't true.

JULIE: Yeah. Oh, okay. Um, so were you guys close growing up?

CARA: Yeah. He's my best friend actually. He's the one that I would do drugs with and he kind of got me in on it.

JULIE: When did you start doing drugs?

CARA: Um, I was 17.

JULIE: Okay.

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CARA: I had drank you know, occasionally when I was like 15, 16. But when I was 17 is when I like seriously got into like smoking pot and drinking. And then when I was 19 I tried heroin and acid. Oh when I was 17 I did mushrooms too. And when I was 19 I tried heroin – or not heroin, coke and acid for the first time. And then I was 20 after I had my son I tried crank because I thought it would make me skinny. And it was like something you smoke on foil. You put a piece of the drug on foil and then lit it from the bottom of the lighter and then smoked it through a pen tube or a straw.

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: And then, um, I was probably 23. I got addicted to crack and I came here and then I couldn't stand being comb – confined. And I couldn't stand this place. And then I ran away.

JULIE: From here?

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: It was only like after I'd been here two days.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

CARA: And then from crack I had gone for years not smoking crack and I would just smoke weed. And then it progressed to Lortabs and heroin. And then I did meth before I went to the hospital in October.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: So why do you think you started using drugs?

CARA: Um, I wanted – I was curious. I wanted to fit in with people and I wanted to see how it felt because, you know, my brother had been doing crack since he was 16. And I wanted to see how he felt and how he liked it. And I tried it and I just got hooked on it. But I-I haven't done crack in years. So I think I had more of a problem with weed because I constantly smoked.

JULIE: Yeah, and was the weed helpful for anything?

CARA: It helped me sleep and it helped me eat. But then after I tried heroin and Lortabs I didn't like weed anymore.

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: So it made me more – It made me like real paranoid.

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JULIE: Weed did?

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Oh okay, yeah.

CARA: I'm actually glad I don't do drugs anymore. Now I know what it feels like to be healthy.

JULIE: Yeah. You like that better?

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: That's good. Yeah, um, what was I going to ask about? Um, when you were 14 and you were – you said you had been seeing the school counselor.

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: What were you seeing the school counselor about?

CARA: About my step-dad being an alcoholic –

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: and my brother would get into trouble all the time.

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: And he never really stayed home anymore. He would just go out and run the streets with like really bad kids. Like he would steal and I know he was doing drugs back then too.

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: He's been on drugs I think since he was like 10 if not younger.

JULIE: Wow.

CARA: Yep.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. And you said your – Was there anything else going on when you were 14 besides your step-dad, or -?

CARA: Nope –

JULIE: Okay.

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CARA: there wasn't. I had a basically normal life except for my step-dad being an alcoholic and my mom working all the time and her getting, you know, beat by him, and us getting yelled at.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. He would yell at you?

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Oh okay. What would he yell at you for?

CARA: I can't remember. It was probably for stuff I did wrong.

JULIE: Uh-huh.

CARA: His way of punishing me.

JULIE: Was he verbally abusive?

CARA: No not really, not to me. He was verbally abusive to my mom –

JULIE: Okay, mm-hmmm.

CARA: and my brother I think.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. What was it like being around him even though he didn't – he directed it more at them than you?

CARA: Yeah, mm-hmmm.

JULIE: So were – What was that like for you to see him go after them?

CARA: I felt guilty.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

CARA: But then I would like reassure myself. I would like talk to myself in my head and say, "Well they must've done something to deserve it."

JULIE: Oh.

CARA: That's – I think that's the only way I could get through it.

JULIE: It's the only way to make sense out of it.

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Yeah.

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CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Because if they hadn't done something to deserve it –

CARA: He wouldn't have been yelling at them.

JULIE: Yeah, mm-hmmm. Were you scared?

CARA: Yeah I was. I usually stayed in my room all the time. I isolated myself to cope with it and so that I didn't do anything to deserve being yelled at. I would just stay away from my family.

JULIE: It sounds kind of lonely.

CARA: It was. I really didn't have any friends either until after I went to the hospital. And I came back and I asked this girl, Sarah Smith her name was, I said, "I was at the hospital. I was at Southport. Were you there too?" And she – She was like, "Yeah. How'd you know?" And I was like, "I don't know." And then after that we just became friends. I went to her house for dinner and we started hanging around with each other all the time.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. That's great.

CARA: And when I was like 14 or 15 – I think I was 15 – my mom, um, started dating my stepdad's sponsor. And that was like really bad. I felt like what she did was really bad and I was angry with her. And I couldn't stand it. And we moved in with him. We had to get rid of my dog.

JULIE: Oh.

CARA: He got rid of our cat, um. He was – He was real mean to me. Like he-he would gripe at me constantly.

JULIE: Like what? Like complaining about stuff or -?

CARA: Yeah. I can't remember what it is now but he would just – He would just be really mean to me. And he wasn't a good person. Like he would put his, um – He would write his name on all his foods in the fridge and in the cupboard and he would have special food. And he would have his separated from me and my brother's. And one time I asked him for something and he said no. And I told him, I said, "I'll never you ask for another damn thing as long as I live here with you." And I didn't.

JULIE: Wow.

CARA: And he was a real jerk.

JULIE: Yeah.

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CARA: And my mom ended up breaking up with him and we moved out. And she got back with my step-dad.

JULIE: Hmm. Um, so when you were little and you were upset, who would you go to for comforting?

CARA: Nobody. I think it – I think it was my mom once in a while but she could only do so much.

JULIE: It sounds like she was really busy and stressed out herself?

CARA: Yeah. She worked a lot. I didn't want to worry her.

JULIE: Oh. Yeah.

CARA: So I mostly, you know, kept things to myself, bottled them, bottled them up.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: And I think that's why I had that like nervous breakdown when I was 14.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. Letting all that stuff out finally?

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: I'd have to say it's better being an adult.

JULIE: What do you mean?

CARA: Well I don't have to worry about like back-talking anyone, um I don't have to worry about being slapped in the face by my mom. I don't have to like watch myself carefully what I do because of angering my step-dad. I don't have to worry about my brother being out and running the streets and getting into trouble with his friends and – You know it-it's just better being an adult, probably because I don't have to answer to anyone.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. It sounds like you had to walk on a lot of eggshells when you were younger.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: I did.

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JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Um –

CARA: My sister was lucky. She escaped everything.

JULIE: Oh.

CARA: My mom kicked her out when she was 13 –

JULIE: Uh-huh.

CARA: and my sister, um –

JULIE: How old were you when she got kicked out? So you would've been –

CARA: Thirteen from seven. No she must've been kicked out younger than 13 because I was really little when she didn't live with us.

JULIE: Oh.

CARA: I think I was like six.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: No she was 13 then because we're seven years apart.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: But anyway she got kicked out when she was 13 because she was – She would back talk my mom and she wanted to live with her dad and she couldn't stand it and – So she would – She would stay from friend to friend's house and this social worker from Welfare came to the school one day and kept her after school. And a secretary called my grandma and she said, "Missy -.” (That's what they called my grandma was Missy because her name was Melissa.

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: She said, "You'd better get down here. They're gonna take Carrie.” And my grandma went down there and – So she had my sister live with her.

JULIE: Wow.

CARA: Yep.

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JULIE: Why was your mom –? Your mom wanted to kick her out because -?

CARA: She would back-talk my mom and she didn't want to help do any chores around the house. She didn't want to take care of me and my brother.

JULIE: And what did your – What did your mom tell you about why your sister was kicked out?

CARA: Just that.

JULIE: Oh that's why she was?

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: How did you feel about your sister moving out?

CARA: I really missed her. When we got a little bit older – I think I was seven or eight – my sister lived with her dad and it was the same trailer court where we had a babysitter at. And we would go over to my sister's house all the time to see her. But it was bad because we got so upset (both of us, me and my brother) that we wouldn't eat when we'd go back to the babysitters. She would make supper and we wouldn't eat anything.

JULIE: How come?

CARA: Because we missed our sister.

JULIE: Oh.

CARA: And then like after that when my sister got a car she would always come over to our house to like take us places, take us to the store, take us out to eat. Like she would take me and my brother on dates with her when she would go out with her boyfriends.

JULIE: Oh.

CARA: [laughs]

JULIE: That seems a little weird.

CARA: [laughs] You think it was weird, but it wasn't.

JULIE: Okay. [laughs]

CARA: She would just – She would just take us with her places, like not only to her – with her boyfriends on dates, but she would take us to the fairs; take us to like little festivals and stuff. Like there's this Maple Festival there in Woodside and she would take us to that. She would buy us stuff and she was really good to us. She had changed a lot.

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JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: And she started a relationship with our mom. And they get along now. And she takes my mom out to breakfast and sometimes she cooks breakfast for her. And sometimes my mom goes down and watches movies. Like, um, this past pass we had I went to my sister's house. And she had recorded this movie with Robert Duvall and, um, I can't remember the other actor's name. But it was – It was called A Family Thing where this – He thought he was white but his mother was black. And his dad was white and his mother had died giving birth to him. And so he was raised by her friend that was white. And he had a black brother, a half-brother. And he went to Chicago to visit him and they became friends and had a relationship. But my sister recorded that and me and my mom watched it with her.

JULIE: That's nice.

CARA: And she cooked us breakfast. We have some good times now. When I get my own apartment we're gonna have cookouts at my sister's and stuff. I'm gonna make – I'll probably make a cherry cheesecake or something like that –

JULIE: That sounds good.

CARA: you know, to take to the cook out.

JULIE: Yeah. That's sounds nice.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: A lot of good things to look forward to.

CARA: Yep. And the best part is I'll be drug free.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: And my nephew, he-he had a drug problem but he just got out of like this teen rehab facility. He and I are gonna go to meetings and stuff together.

JULIE: That's great.

CARA: Yep.

JULIE: Yeah. Um, that's really good.

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: I was wondering about, um, when did you become sexually active?

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CARA: I was 15.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: Mm-hmmm. I, uh – When I was 17 I kept like having a lot of different partners and partners I didn't know.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

CARA: I mean I-I knew their names but I would just meet him – meet them that same day and then have sex with them without a condom or anything because I tried to get pregnant. And I could've – I'm lucky because I could've gotten AIDS or –

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: You know I could've gotten a disease.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: But I kept trying and finally when I was 19 I got pregnant and had my son when I was 20.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. So what were you – Did you just – Was that all you wanted was to have a baby?

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: And so you didn't want anything else from these encounters?

CARA: No.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: Like you see on talk shows – You've probably seen that before on like Maury Povich or, you know, something like that, where these like young teenage girls will just want a baby, someone to love and someone to love them back. And then they're real promiscuous.

JULIE: Does that explain what happened with you?

CARA: Mm-hmmm, it does.

JULIE: You wanted someone to love and someone to love you?

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Did you feel like you didn't have that?

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CARA: Yeah I did because of my family being su-such a dysfunctional family.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: But I'm lucky that I didn't get pregnant when I was a teenager because it probably would've been my mom raising the baby. They probably would've took over. So that would've like kind of destroyed my dreams and my hopes of having a family.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm, yeah. It sounds – I mean you must've been really lonely and –

CARA: Yeah, I was.

JULIE: felt so unloved.

CARA: Yeah, I did. I used to wish that I could go live with my sister and live with my grandma.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. Anywhere but in your house?

CARA: Mm-hmmm, yeah.

JULIE: I know in some families with an alcoholic parent there's a lot of secrecy too around you don't want anyone to find out.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Was that -?

CARA: That's exactly how it was. I didn't want any of my friends finding out. But later on like, when I had friends - Sometimes I didn't because I isolated myself and I wasn't outgoing. I was more of an introvert. When I did have friends finally they found out later that my step-dad was an alcoholic.

JULIE: How did they respond?

CARA: I think they felt sorry for me because my one friend, when I was real little (I was about eight or nine); the mother said that she liked my mom but she just didn't like my step-dad. And I think it was because my step-dad drank.

JULIE: Yeah, hmmm. So, um, did it feel hard having to carry that secret around and not being able to tell anyone about it?

CARA: Yeah it did.

JULIE: Yeah.

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CARA: People would've made fun of me for it.

JULIE: Oh.

CARA: And when I was 12 I-I, uh, went to a sons and daughters meeting of alcoholics. And it was at the school and – I don't think people took it seriously so I ended up quitting that. And then when I was like 15 I went to Al-Anon. So that was a little better.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm, yeah.

CARA: But there was nothing but adults there. There weren't any kids.

JULIE: Oh, at Al-anon?

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Oh okay. What was school like for you?

CARA: I hated it.

JULIE: Yeah?

CARA: I would've dropped out if I would've been six if I would've been allowed.

JULIE: You would've dropped out at – when you were six?

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: How come?

CARA: We were really poor and people – kids – used to make fun of me because I was poor.

JULIE: Oh. Kids can be really cruel.

CARA: Yeah, they were.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. What would they say?

CARA: I was called a nerd.

JULIE: Aww.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. And it was hard to make friends?

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CARA: Mm-hmmm. Because we went to more of a – of a school where the area was for like rich kids.

JULIE: Oh.

CARA: They were like – Like this one kid I knew, his dad was a dentist. And then this other girl I knew, her dad was an – a, uh, dermatologist and – They were like really rich people. So I didn't fit in with anybody. That's why I really didn't have friends.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm, yeah. That would be tough.

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: I'm wondering how – Since money was tight how did you – were able to buy all the drugs when you were a teenager?

CARA: I got 'em free.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: I would like smoke with my boyfriend and his friends. Or like, when I was in Woodside, kids would smoke with me.

JULIE: Oh.

CARA: I mean like teens. Kids my age would smoke and it was really easy to find people that did drugs here. It still is.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: Yeah. So I would just like – When I first got here like I – if I would see a boy and he was my age I'd ask him. I'd-I'd be like, "Do you smoke pot?" Or, "Do you smoke weed," or whatever you know. And he'd be like, "Yeah.” And I'd be like, "Well do you want to get high with me.” And then he'd be like, "Yeah.” And then I'd go to his apartment and I would smoke with him.

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: Like there was this group. They were probably about 19 or 20. They were like three years older than me, two or three years older. And, um, they had their own apartment. And I would, uh, go over there and smoke with them. And I didn't smoke cigarettes either so it was easier to support my habit, you know, with weed.

JULIE: Oh okay, mm-hmmm. That makes sense. Um, I'm wondering if you ever had an experience of someone, um, having sex with you when you didn't want to or –

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CARA: Uh, yeah I did. I was on the streets 'cause I had run away from home. And I, uh, drank at this really weird guy's house. He had – He wore a bandana but underneath his bandana he had like patches of his hair shaved off. And I found out later that he did that so he could get more medicine, like psych meds because he abused them.

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: And, um, he said, "Put out or get out." And I had to, you know, have sex with him to stay there –

JULIE: Oh.

CARA: because I had run away from home. And then I h-had ended up leaving anyway, you know, after I already did it with him. And my brother – It pissed my brother off because he considered it rape. He, you know – He's like, "He raped you." And I'm like, "No it wasn't rape.” And he's like, "Yes it was." And he peed on his pillow at – He shared an upper-upper story floor with this guy. They both paid rent to the-the same person.

JULIE: Your brother and this guy.

CARA: Yeah and my brother peed on his pillow –

JULIE: Oh.

CARA: because he did that. [laughs] So my brother was, in his way, fighting for my honor – [laughs] kind of.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. He was really "pissed off."

CARA: Yeah, [laughs] literally. [laughs]

JULIE: [laughs] Yeah.

CARA: But my brother loved me. Whenever we would get into a fight we would always like make amends like two or three days later and be back friends again. But we were always together. Whenever I ran away from home in Woodside from my mom and my step-dad's house he would always come and find me – try to – try to find me. He would always look for me.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm, that's good.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Um, shoot I was gonna ask something about him. Um, oh yeah – When you had fights, um, what was it like during the time when you weren't talking for a few days?

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CARA: It really hurt my feelings. I was like really sad and down. At first I'd be really mad and indignant but then later I would be like really sad and I'd be lonely and I'd be thinking about why – I'd be thinking, "I wonder what's Andy's doing right now." "I wonder what he -.” You know I'd talk to Tom, my fiancé. I'd go, "I wonder what he's doing right now Tom." "What's he doing?" And I'm like, "I wonder where he's at.” And you know I would talk about him a lot.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. I wonder if sometimes people have – they worry that a relationship will end during a fight. Did you ever worry that (I don't know) you'd never see your brother again or that he would –

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: I actually – Like this past time – He was homeless because the burned down –

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: and he broke in my door at like 4:00 AM in the morning. I mean he just broke the door, kicked it in. And I had to call the police. And he had left before the police came. And he – After that he went to jail and I was like – I was actually relieved that he was in jail so that he didn't come and break my door open and, you know, steal from me or do anything like that.

JULIE: It sounds like he has had some really erratic behavior.

CARA: Yeah he-he had a drug problem. And I know when he was younger and he was on crack he used to steal for his crack problem.

JULIE: Yeah, okay.

CARA: He's stolen hundreds of dollars off me before.

JULIE: Wow.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: But you can separate that out – from the drug problem from him.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Yeah, mm-hmmm.

CARA: He would always defend me and we would always hang out together. We have some of the stupidest memories together. [laughs] Like this one time I was pregnant and I had this friend over at my apartment. And my brother was there. And we were all three sitting on the couch. I was on one end and my friend was in the middle and my brother was on the other side. And my

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brother and I were arguing back and forth with each other on the couch. And my friend said, "You two are like retard Siamese twins.” [laughs]

JULIE: That's funny.

CARA: Yeah and so now we have that nickname for each other: your retarded Siamese twin. [laughs]

JULIE: [laughs] That's good.

CARA: Yeah. And he would cereal out of my pots. You know, like a cooking pot, like a spaghetti pot? He would eat cereal out of that wi –

JULIE: That's a big bowl of cereal.

CARA: Yeah. [laughs] And I used to get so mad at him for doing that. I'm like, "You're not supposed to eat cereal out of a pot." And so now that's one of our inner-inside jokes. And, uh, the retarded Siamese twin and we're supposed to drink coffee and smoke cigarettes together when he gets out.

JULIE: It's a date. [laughs]

CARA: Yeah. [laughs]

JULIE: Yeah, aw, that's good.

CARA: Yeah. I miss him.

JULIE: Yeah, yeah. I wonder with, um, going back to your dad and how he was bipolar; I wonder if he seemed like two different people.

CARA: [coughs] Yeah he did. Sometimes he could be really nice and other times he would just start – He would fly off the handle and yell at us.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. Was that confusing for you when you were little?

CARA: Yeah, like he would whip us. He would just use his hand, not a belt of a switch or anything. And it hurt really bad and it hurt my feelings really bad.

JULIE: Tell me more about –

CARA: And like –

JULIE: Oh yeah, go ahead.

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CARA: Well like one time he was talking and I turned around and I walked away. And I guess that was considered disrespectful. I don't know if I thought he was already done talking or, you know, I just didn't want to hear anymore but he grabbed me by the arm and he just beat my butt. And it hurt really bad. And he yelled at me. And this other time me and my brother were getting into a fight in the store and he beat – 'Cause that was in the '80's where you were allowed to beat your children. And he-he beat my butt and then he turned me around and pressed my face into a blanket that was folded up on a shelf. Like being in the corner?

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

CARA: That's what it was supposed to signify. But it was – You know, he did it in the blanket right there. And this other time –

JULIE: Could you breathe?

CARA: Yeah I could breathe.

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: And there was this other time where it was snowy out and I like ran my hand over branches and over like objects getting the snow off. And my gloves were soaked. And he asked me what I did when I came in out of the cold. And I told him. And he just like – He was really irate. And he was really mad at me, yelling at me about that.

JULIE: How did you feel then?

CARA: I felt really sad. It hurt my feelings. I was really timid when I was little.

JULIE: You felt like you had done something wrong?

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Yeah. And how old were you when all of this was going on?

CARA: I was about seven.

JULIE: Oh okay, mm-hmmm. So when you were little how did you make sense out of your dad being really nice sometimes and really scary the other times?

CARA: Um, my mom bad-talked him after the divorce when she was – when we would be at home with her. She would just say stuff about him being nuts and how he's crazy. And she would just say really mean things about him. So that's how I made sense of it, because I thought he was crazy and I thought he was nuts.

JULIE: How did you feel about that?

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CARA: Wounded. Like my emotions were wounded because he would say bad stuff about her and she would stay bad stuff about him. And I felt confused. And I didn't know who to be loyal to. I felt like they were fighting over loyalty of me and my brother's. So I would act up when I came home from visiting him. And they blamed it on me visiting him but it wasn't. It was just him saying stuff against her and at Bill. And Bill and my mom- Bill's my step-dad.

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: And Bill and my mom saying bad stuff about my dad. And I've learned – 'cause every once in a while I'll – I would say something bad about my daughter's dad to her and she would start crying. And I would try to hug her and tell her that I'm sorry and she wouldn't let me hug her. And I realized I can't be doing that. And then I remembered my dad doing the same thing and my mom doing the same thing. So, like I quit doing that.

JULIE: Yeah, you felt stuck in the middle between them –

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: fighting over it – your loyalty?

CARA: Yeah I sure-sure did.

JULIE: Yeah, mm-hmmm. That sounds so confusing.

CARA: It was. And I always loved my dad more. I remember when I was little I-I really wanted to live with him and stuff, but my mom wouldn't allow it.

JULIE: Why did you want to live with him?

CARA: Because of my step-dad's drinking and the way my mom would like smack us in the face. And how our step-dad would beat us with the belt.

JULIE: Can – Do you remember a specific time when he beat you with a belt?

CARA: No I don't.

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: It was that long ago.

JULIE: Uh-huh. You just remember he'd beat you with a belt.

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Was it when you were bad, or -?

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CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Only when you were bad? He would just get angry and drunk and beat you with a belt for no reason?

CARA: Yeah, it was only when I was bad.

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: One time though when he was drunk he spit on my hand.

JULIE: Hmm. He just spit on your hand?

CARA: Mm-hmmm. I was showing of palm reading and he grabbed my hand and he spit on it.

JULIE: How did you feel?

CARA: That really, really tore me up. It really hurt me when he did that. It made me feel mad, it made me feel sad, and it made me feel ashamed.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: Because no one – No adult had ever done anything like that to me before. I just – I couldn’t believe it. I was shocked. And I just remember most of all being hurt.

JULIE: Yeah, yeah. How old were you when he did that?

CARA: Nine or ten.

JULIE: Oh okay, mm-hmmm. Yeah.

CARA: Yeah that was pretty bad. I know I remember thinking, "When I'm grown and I have kids I'll never treat them like that. And I'll never let any man treat them like that."

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. You knew it wasn't right even th-though you were little.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Yeah, mm-hmmm. I was wondering if he ever touched you in appropriately –

CARA: No.

JULIE: or did any – No.

CARA: No he never did anything like that.

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JULIE: Okay.

CARA: No, just the occasional beating. I know that sounds horrible saying it like that, but it was common to me. It wasn't as much as my brother got though because, like I said, I was his pet. I was his favorite.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. What was – What was it like for your brother?

CARA: Um, my brother was telling me that he got beat all the time. And he said that when he was about nine he quit crying when he was beat. He just held the tears back. And he said that's why he would – When he got older, that's why he would stay gone all the time –

JULIE: Oh.

CARA: because he hated my mom and he hated my step-dad.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: He was about, I'd say, 13 when he started staying gone all the time.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. And how did you feel about him being gone all the time?

CARA: I didn't much care. We weren't close at that time. He had his own life and I had my own life. But when I was like 18 and I had my own apartment he would come and stay with me all the time.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

CARA: We would smoke pot together and joke around and one time he [laughs] smoked pot at my grandma's house.

JULIE: Oh no.

CARA: [laughs] And she goes, "It smells like a God damn barn in here." [laughs]

JULIE: Oh dear.

CARA: [laughs] And she goes like this to him. She goes, "I'm hungry Booboo.” That's what – She had baby names for us and she called him Booboo. She goes, "I'm hungry Booboo. Do you want anything to eat?" [laughs]

JULIE: She knew it was time or –

CARA: [laughs] She got –She got a contact buzz and it made her hungry.

JULIE: Oh that's funny.

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CARA:[laughs]

JULIE: She had the munchies too.

CARA: Yeah. [laughs]

JULIE: That's funny.

CARA: She was the best grandma in the world. I loved her so much. She died in, um, I think 2005 or 2006.

JULIE: I'm sorry.

CARA: And my-my boyfriend had to watch all the kids for us. He watched Adam (my son), Chelsea (my niece), my daugh – my brother's little girl, and my daughter so that me and my brother and his girlfriend could go to the funeral.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: It was horrible. I had – I had to have closure though and I wanted to see what it felt like when she was dead. So like I touched her forehead and then her hair and it felt like plastic or a piece of wood. I mean you could just tell there was no life in it at all. It wasn't her.

JULIE: Yeah. It was so hard to lose her.

CARA: Yeah it was. She had been in the nursing home for years though –

JULIE: Oh.

CARA: because she had had a stroke. So I was kind of [coughs] relieved that she didn't have to sit in that nursing home anymore –

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: and she wasn't trapped inside her body you know?

JULIE: Yeah. That's hard.

CARA: Yeah. She was a good grandma.

JULIE: Hmm, yeah. It sounds like in the chaos of your family she was the one you could count on?

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CARA: Yeah because we always would – Whenever my mom wanted to get away from my stepdad on weekends when she didn't work we would always pile in the car and drive to my grandma’s and stay there.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm, that's good.

CARA: And I remember she would like leave – leave me and my brother with my grandma for like a week at a time, two weeks in the summer to get away from my step-dad. I remember we had this glass table, kitchen table and he took his fist and he smashed it, smashed his fist into it. And he like threw it and it like shattered.

JULIE: Wow.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: That must've been scary.

CARA: I wasn't home when he did it.

JULIE: Oh.

CARA: Neither was my brother.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: And one Christmas he, uh, held my mom down on the floor because she had kept the gas money away from him because he wanted to go out and drink on it. And he smashed Christmas bulbs into her head.

JULIE: Oh my gosh.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Did you see that?

CARA: No.

JULIE: Oh okay, you just heard about it?

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: What is – What else did you see him do? Did you see him break her ankle?

CARA: No.

JULIE: Oh.

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CARA: I'd see him yelling at her and her yelling back. I don't think I ever seen him hit her though. But I guess they did that when we were asleep –

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: or when we were out playing or at my grandma's.

JULIE: Was it confusing with him being so abusive towards your brother and your mom but nice towards you?

CARA: Yeah, and I wished he would be nice to my mom and my brother like he was to me. Sometimes he really was though. Like he would play basketball with me and my brother and my mom. We would all play together as a family. And, uh, we would play – He would play baseball with my brother. So sometimes he could be really nice.

JULIE: Was that two-sided – was it two different people that he was, being drunk and the –?

CARA: Yeah. Yeah, my mom called him, uh, Jekyll and Hyde.

JULIE: Ahh.

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. Does it ever -? So you've had a couple of really unpredictable sort of Jekyll and Hyde type people in your life. You know, your dad being bipolar –

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: and then your step-dad. Has it felt like other people have been that way or confusing to you like that?

CARA: Uh, not that I can think of.

JULIE: Okay, hmmm. I'm gonna look at – I have a – I just want to make sure – I had a list of questions that were – Um, I guess – So with the people you feel close to –

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: What happens when you're feeling really close to someone, like -?

CARA: Um, sometimes I think, "When are they gonna turn on me?" Or, "When is this gonna change? When is this gonna go away?"

JULIE: Oh okay. So it feels like you can't really count on it, –

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CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: that it might just disappear of go away?

CARA: Yeah then I'm afraid it'll change.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. Has that happened to you?

CARA: Um, with friends. Like they quit being my friend because we get into a fight or something. Like this one friend I had, uh, I was staying over at her house and I fixed her up with my cousin and she was dating him. And she kept talking to him on the phone while I was there and I thought that was rude and inconsiderate. So I hung up the phone on them. And then I went home a little bit later and like, she – I called her and I told her I didn't want to be friends with her anymore. And we never talked again after that.

JULIE: Wow.

CARA: So I lost a friend by, you know, by her not wanting to pay attention to me and stuff anymore.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. Is there anything in particular that leads to you having that feeling of worrying when are they gonna turn on you or when are they gonna leave?

CARA: Probably because I'd see my step-dad's behavior from when he was drunk to when he was sober.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm, so people can just change just like that?

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: I guess I was used to it.

JULIE: You're used to -?

CARA: I was used to his behavior.

JULIE: Oh okay, mm-hmmm. Um, what happens when they get angry or sad, other people you're close to?

CARA: Um, I stay away from them when they're angry –

JULIE: Uh-huh.

CARA: and I just kind of let it blow over. And when they're sad I try to comfort them.

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JULIE: Okay, mm-hmmm. Um, what happens when you feel distant or disconnected from people?

CARA: I usually – I isolate myself and just stay away from them.

JULIE: Do you worry about the relationships still being there?

CARA: No not really.

JULIE: Oh okay, mm-hmmm. It's only in close relationships though that you worry about them turning on your or -?

CARA: Yeah, mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Yeah. Um, I guess, what was your – If you had a role in your family, wh-what would you say your role was?

CARA: Oh I know what this is. We talked about this at that child psychiatric unit I was at.

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: I would've been the hero because I had still gone to school throughout all the problems and I would get straight A's. I was like – One time I had a grade point average of 4.0.

JULIE: Wow.

CARA: Yeah. And then I would come home and I would study and would like do the dishes and- and vacuum and fold laundry. So I was – I would've been the hero –

JULIE: You're the –

CARA: or the caretaker role.

JULIE: Okay. So you didn't let it affect you or nobody could see that it was affecting you?

CARA: No, mm-mm.

JULIE: You kept up a good front.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: And I was like super responsible. Like I would go beyond and above the call of duty. Mm-hmmm.

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JULIE: Yeah, okay. And so aside from your brother and your, um, fiancé, who do you feel close to?

CARA: Probably my mom. We've worked out all of our problems that we had in the past and she's like my best friend besides my brother being my best friend.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: I guess she's my best friend now since he's in jail.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: I still write to him though. And when I get a job at, um, the group home, I'm gonna send him money to put on his books because all of his money goes towards medication he gets in jail.

JULIE: Oh okay. Yeah.

CARA: Because they don't really give you like – They don't – Like here from your work, they don't really like hand you the money. They like put it into an account for you –

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: and you have to have a reason of why you want to – So when I have my own job, you know, and I get my own money at the group home I'll send him money.

JULIE: Okay, mm-hmmm. Um, oh shoot – What was I gonna – I had a question and then I forgot it. Um, oh yeah, um, who do you feel like – Who do you feel understands you right now, like gets you?

CARA: Probably my boyfriend.

JULIE: Boyfriend?

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: We've got all kinds of plans for the future.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm, that's great.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: And what's it like to feel understood by him?

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CARA: It takes a burden off my shoulders.

JULIE: Can you say more about that?

CARA: I feel kind of relieved that at least I have one person that I can depend on and one person that like loves me a lot and who supports me through everything.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm, that's great.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Yeah. Who do you feel like -? Who else has understood you in your life? Who else do you feel understood by?

CARA: My brother.

JULIE: Your brother, mm-hmmm.

CARA: That's about it because I've had friends before and they turned out not to be good friends.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm, yeah.

CARA: Like I got in contact with that Sarah Smith when I was about 22. The last time I had seen her I was 18. And you know it was like four years later and I came back to see her. And I wrote her and she never wrote me or called me or anything. So she just kind of dumped me.

JULIE: Oh.

CARA: Yeah,

JULIE: That's tough, mm-hmmm.

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: And growing up did you feel like your brother understood you?

CARA: Yeah, we suffered together.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: Yeah. So I think that's what made us close.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm, yeah.

CARA: We were there for each other.

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JULIE: You could depend on him?

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

CARA: Like we had gross things we didn't like to eat for dinner – When my step-dad and my mom were out of the room I would give him like what he could eat and then I would eat what he didn't eat. So we would like switch so it wasn't so nauseating.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm, you were a team.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Yeah. Anyone else you felt like over the years has understood you?

CARA: Probably my grandma.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: She was – She knew that Bill was mean to us and stuff.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

CARA: And she said, "He better not ever do anything to you while you're here." And she, um – One time my mom had me backed in my grandma's washroom. She was gonna s-slap me. And my grandma got up out of her chair and she said, "Don't you back her up in that washing room.” And she stopped her from slapping me.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm, she defended you, mm-hmmm.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: How often would your mom slap you?

CARA: Quite a bit. I think she slapped me more than she slapped my brother because my brother was her favorite.

JULIE: Oh. How did you know that?

CARA: I knew it from the way she treated him and she babied him. And he was the only boy and he was the youngest of the family. And she almost lost him when he was born 'cause he was a preemie.

JULIE: Oh okay.

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CARA: So that's – She'd always treated him different from my sister and me.

JULIE: Hmm. So would she smack you every day?

CARA: No.

JULIE: Oh.

CARA: Just – She would smack me a lot. I don't – I don't – I can't count the times – but it wasn't every day.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. But it was pretty regularly?

CARA: Yeah, mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. Do you remember the first time she ever smacked you?

CARA: I was really little. I think I was six.

JULIE: Do you remember what happened?

CARA: No I can't remember.

JULIE: Oh.

CARA: I think me and my brother got into an argument or a squabble because we were little. And she just hauled off and smacked me one.

JULIE: Mmm. How did you feel?

CARA: It really hurt my feelings. It made me really sad. I think like spankings and being slapped in the face – I think it hurts more your feelings than it does visibly.

JULIE: What-what does do to your feelings?

CARA: Huh?

JULIE: What does it do to your feelings?

CARA: It makes you really sad and ashamed.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm, yeah. And how did you feel about your mom when she slapped you?

CARA: I hated her and I wanted to go live with my grandma.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm, yeah. That makes sense. Hmm. Let's see if there's –

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CARA: Do you want to save some of those questions for next week?

JULIE: Sounds good.

CARA: We'll have something else to talk about.

JULIE: Sounds good.

Second Interview with Cara

JULIE: Okay, um, so with this happened when you were 10. And there were some other things that you talked about that happened around age six or seven. Um you talked a lot about a lot of chaos and trauma in your family.

CARA: Yeah, it was a dysfunctional family.

JULIE: Yeah, I was wondering if there were things that happened when you were younger too, that you remember.

CARA: Well the first thing I can remember happening was when I was five or six. And, I don’t know what really caused it, but I remember seeing my dad, with his hands his face, his face in his hands, crying. And it was like the middle of the night at the trailer. And then he picked me up and put me on his lap and hugged me. And held me. I think that was when my mom told him that she wanted a divorce.

JULIE: Oh okay. So you remember that.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: And then I told you about him having an episode and he picked up a big screen TV and threw it out in the middle of the road.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: Yeah. Cause I remember getting a new TV, when I was like six.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: I remember it was all- we were all excited and we were all happy about it. And he brought the box into our house and, into our trailer, and I remember us opening the box and I watched Chilly Willy. [laughs]

JULIE: Oh the cartoon?

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CARA: Yeah. And um, Scooby Doo too.

JULIE: Aw.

CARA: I remember that. And then I remember one time, they had a red Nova, my parents did. And I took an orange marker and stuck it against the side of the car and then ran all the way around the side of the car with my marker in my hand and I gave it my own racing stripe. [chuckles] And um, my mom beat my butt. She gave a wash cloth to wipe it off with but she ended up you know cleaning it up, what I had left on there. But I would’ve gotten to- into severe trouble if my dad would’ve caught me doing that.

JULIE: What would he have done?

CARA: I would’ve gotten my butt beat.

JULIE: With-

CARA: Like worse, than my mom. I’d probably get the belt.

JULIE: So he would’ve beat you with a belt?

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Oh okay. Did he do that when you were little?

CARA: Uh, I don’t know if one time he did. I think he might have because I know I had welts, on my bottom. And um, I know my grandma and my mom weren’t happy about it. I think that’s also one of the reasons they got a divorce, my mom and dad. Because we were just too little to be beat with a belt. It was either a belt or a switch. I don’t know which.

JULIE: But you had to be less than what, five years old?

CARA: No, it was probably six.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

CARA: I was pretty small.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: I’ve never beaten my kids with a belt.

JULIE: No.

CARA: Uh uh.

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JULIE: Um, so I guess, what’s your earliest memory?

CARA: I remember, I remember my brother pulling my hair when he was a baby. That’s about as early as I can remember. I think I was probably 4.

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: Three or four. I loved him so much. When he was born, I said, “My baby brother, can I kiss him?” I asked my mom and dad that and they said yes.

JULIE: That’s nice.

CARA: But my mother told me that whenever he would pull my hair I would just yell for her. I would never hit him or slap him back or like pull his hair.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm

CARA: I think that’s it. That’s my earliest memory.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: Is him pulling my hair.

JULIE: What’s your earliest memory of your dad?

CARA: I remember riding on the back of a bike. I don’t know if I had a baby seat or if it was his- his seat that he would like stand up and pedal and let me sit on the seat. I don’t know how it was worked out, but I remember riding on the back of his bicycle with him.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: And I uh, he gave me a piece of gum and I don’t know if I swallowed it or spit it out, but I wanted a new piece. And he’s like, “What happened to your old piece?” And I go, “It just disappeared!” [laughs] That’s what I can remember about him.

JULIE: And your earliest memory of your mom?

CARA: I remember her taking us to neighbors’ houses with her when she would go visit.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

CARA: Yeah, that’s all I can think of. Oh, and she used to yell at me to keep away from this fan. It was a cast iron fan. You know like summer fan that you plug in and turn on and it cools you off? It was like cast-iron and, she said it would chop off our fingers.

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JULIE: Oh dear.

CARA: So she ended up getting rid of it. I was pretty young, I think I was maybe 5.

JULIE: Oh okay. And, you said that your, one reason your mom and dad got divorced was because your dad would be, would,

CARA: He was kind of violent.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: Aggressive.

JULIE: What all do you know about that?

CARA: I know he died alone. And everybody in the apartment building, there’s only a few people because they – they were involved with a mental health facility. It is called Recovery Center. But he was the only one that wasn’t a client. And, all the other clients were afraid of him because he didn’t take any medication. And then he ended up having a burst aorta and dying. And they didn’t find him except for like three days later by the smell.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: And, he died alone because of his violent tendencies. And nobody, nobody was there.

JULIE: Yeah. What do you remember, what was your experience of his violent tendencies?

CARA: He would, he would spank me and he would only use his hand.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

CARA: But it really hurt my feelings and made me cry. And he used to make fun of me, sometimes. He would like pat my belly and say, “You’re getting a little chub on you.” Or, “You’re getting a little bit fat. So quit eating so much.” I’m not sure if that’s exactly what he said but, I think he said something like that. And I was little, I was maybe eight or nine.

JULIE: He moved out when you were, 10?

CARA: I was six.

JULIE: Oh, but you would still see him.

CARA: That was my mom and dad. Yeah. She remarried when I was, I think 10.

JULIE: Yeah, okay.

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CARA: But she had been with my stepdad since I was eight.

JULIE: Okay. But your dad was the one, your biological dad was the one who would say those things to you-

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: and spank you. Yeah. Um, what did you know about him being bipolar?

CARA: He showed me and my brother these pills and this pill box that he had. And I remember him telling us that if anything happened that we, he, we needed to tell the police or the paramedics about those pills. So I knew he was on medication for it at the time.

JULIE: Oh ok, how old were you when he told you that?

CARA: I think I was like 9, cause I think the last time I saw him I was 10.

JULIE: Oh.

CARA: So I don’t even know what he looks like or anything. I can’t remember.

JULIE: Yeah. The last time you ever saw him was when you were 10?

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Wow.

CARA: Yeah and then I had to sign the papers for him to be cremated when I was 18.

JULIE: Where was your mom? Oh, go ahead.

CARA: They tried to, the funeral home tried to come after me to pay all of the expenses, pay for the cremation, pay for the viewing, pay for the burial of- of the urn. And my mom chewed them out, she said, “Look here. You’re not going to make my daughter pay for this. She doesn’t even have a home. She doesn’t have a job. There’s no way she can pay for this. You go after that Wilson family.” My dad’s family, his mom and dad and his sisters.

JULIE: Oh oh.

CARA: But that’s basically how it was. I could never pay for it. I still can’t afford to pay for it. I wish I could get some kind of tombstone or something for his grave. Because he doesn’t even have a marker. We’re not even sure where he’s buried at.

JULIE: Oh. That’s too bad.

CARA: Yeah.

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JULIE: Yeah. So, he told you about the pills and you remembered him throwing the TV outside and everything, um, did you, did your mom ever tell you stories about other things he did when you were younger?

CARA: Yes, she did. Um, I found out, well, one time, he flipped out at a grain elevator and was going to beat an elderly lady with a broom and the police came in and caught him in the nick of time and took him to the – to here. To the state hospital to get his meds adjusted and stuff. So nothing came of it legally, but my my uh uncle told me the full story. My dad’s sister’s husband. He said that my dad was crossing a picket line to be a scab at a grain elevator where people were, you know, protesting. And an old lady spit in his face. And he just snapped, and he blacked out, and he was going to beat her with the broom.

JULIE: Wow.

CARA: And I’d heard stories about, like, when he would flip out. Because he was so strong, his body was so strong from farm work and you know when the adrenaline gets flowing people have more strength. Well when he would relapse or flip out, or like, anything like that with his mental illness, it would take like six or seven police to get him corralled.

JULIE: Wow.

CARA: Yeah. And then, this one guy said he went out there to visit at my dad’s trailer and my dad ran him off by throwing rocks at him and rocks at his car. But see I think, the guy that did that came onto my dad, because he was homosexual. And, I don’t see any reason as to why else my dad would act like that. That’s the only thing I can think of.

JULIE: For why he would attack him with rocks, drive him away?

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: And he would, it’s kind of embarrassing for me to say this but, they lived in a small town. And there was like a diner. And he would go up and sit in the diner and sing songs, sing to himself. And it was really, that was hard. Because people knew I was his daughter and people, I was afraid people would say stuff to me. And the only person that said something was that guy that he threw rocks at. He said, “He’s a crazy son of a bitch.” And that was like when I was real little. I think I was like 11, when I heard about that and that guy said that to me. And I just, I lost, like words. I couldn’t even speak when he said that about my dad, and said my dad was a crazy son of a bitch. I was wordless. And my sister stuck up for me. It wasn’t her dad. She’s my half- sister. My mom was married to her dad eight years before she married my dad. Or seven, seven or 8. I think seven because me and my sister are seven years apart. But anyway, my sister was like, she was like 17 or 18 at the time and I was real young when that guy said that. And she goes, “Hey”, she goes, “Don’t talk about him like that. That’s their dad.” So she stood up for me. She always has.

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JULIE: Yeah. That’s good. So these are all things that you remember about your dad.

CARA: Yeah, the bad things.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: I remember a few good things. Um, we would always have cookouts and we would do fireworks when we were at my dad’s. We’d play in a swimming pool that he got us. You know a little kiddy pool. And one time for Easter he took eggs and boiled them in with grass clippings, dandelions, and those little purple violets and it colored, the dye came out of those clippings and it colored the eggs different colors.

JULIE: Cool.

CARA: So that was really neat. He’d think of little things like that. He got us a dog named Pooch. A little black and white terrier. A rat terrier. Or it looks kind of like a Jack Russell terrier kind of. And he got us a kitten, a black kitten named Midnight. It died and our dog ran away. But he always meant well. And he got us a horse. She was really mean. Her name was Babe. And she would nip at people. She like tried to bite my cousin Heather’s hand. And my cousin slapped her in the face because of it. And um, I was walking behind her one day and she back kicked me. And my brother just pushed me in the nick of time out of the way so that I wouldn’t get kicked. And I didn’t get kicked because of my brother.

JULIE: That’s good.

CARA: And, my dad made a little story up about, you know those little purple violets, the wild kind you find like in the yards at springtime. There was this little yellow part which is like the pistil or stamen where the bees get. And he said, “you see that little yellow part?” And I said, “Yeah.” And he said, “That’s the crown. The king is sitting there washing his feet.” [chuckles] And then he told me when I was real little. He’d joke around with me because he had a little ice box, a real tiny one in the trailer. He he would open the door and close it and he would say, “See that little light? There’s a tiny little man in there that turns it off and on.” [laughs]

JULIE: That’s funny.

CARA: And he would get us M & M’s and split up the M&M’s evenly between me and my brother. And we’d get to ride the horse. One time we had a car and we took pictures of the car. And he took pictures of uh, us helping him work on it. And he had a moped. And he rigged it out where I could sit on the back and my brother could sit on the front. The seat and there was a little basket in the front. And we would go places on that. Take rides.

JULIE: Sounds like fun.

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CARA: I remember, like, holding onto my dad and resting my head against his back. And the sun was beating down on me and I’d sing while he was cruising around. I have a few good memories with him.

JULIE: Yeah. And I’m wondering what was it like for you – how did you feel about your parents getting divorced?

CARA: I was too young to really notice a difference. But then when I got older, and I’d I’d seen other kids with their mom and dad, both, you know, real mom and real dad, it upset me. I tried to get my mom and dad back together. Me and my brother threw fits about our babysitter. So when I was like, around 8, my dad used to watch us. And my mom would come and pick us up at my dad’s. But it didn’t work. They never got back together.

JULIE: Yeah. What did they tell you when you- when they got divorced. Did they explain it to you or anything?

CARA: They didn’t explain anything to us.

JULIE: Oh, okay. So one day he was there and the next day he wasn’t?

CARA: Yeah, my mom was really horrible about the divorce. She would bad talk him all the time. And then I would tell him. Me and my brother would tell him what my mom said about him. And then he would bad talk her.

JULIE: What did they s-

CARA: So it went back and forth.

JULIE: What did they say about each other?

CARA: My dad said that she had coke bottle bottoms for glasses.

JULIE: Oh, okay.

CARA: And dog breath. And uh, she did have glasses that were real thick.

JULIE: Oh, okay.

CARA: And I think her breath smelled, or he thought her breath smelled because she smoked. And she had tonsil problems. She got her tonsils removed when she got fixed. They just went in and did both surgeries at the same time. So I guess that’s why her breath stunk. I don’t know I never noticed her breath stinkin’. Um, so my dad would just say rude things like that. And then my mom would call him “El Nutso” and say, “Your dad’s crazy. Your dad’s nuts.” And tell us horror stories about him. Like the kids at school would call him weir, short for weird.

JULIE: Oh. What other stories did she tell you about him?

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CARA: About how he would walk around Franklin, where my grandma lived- you know how I told you he’d be in the diner singing to himself? How he would walk around Franklin, talking to himself. He wouldn’t wash his hair. He wouldn’t take baths. But the dad I knew had short black hair. Well, kind of longish, cause it like went down to his neck and it was black and it was silky and it was clean. And he was strong and he was tan. And he had, like, a beard. And that’s the dad I remember. He was a very clean person and he took care of himself. But, that’s basically it.

JULIE: Um, did she ever say later more about why they got divorced? Or-

CARA: On a good day, she was trying to, I don’t know why she was being so nice about it. But she told me that she loved my dad and she would’ve stayed with him if he would’ve taken his medicine and if he wouldn’t have had so many problems with his illness. She said he was a good man.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: So I guess she’s not bitter about it.

JULIE: Uh huh. Do you have a sense of what, I mean if they told you- has she ever told you what life was like, what the family life was like when you were born? Does that make any sense?

CARA: Well I saw my baby book once. I think my baby book got burned up in the fire that was at my brother’s. So I don’t have my baby book anymore. I don’t really know what happened to it. But my mother saved it for me and she gave it to me and there was like, so many pictures and cards from my sister. Because my sister was seven when I was born and she made me cards and pictures and stuff and gave 'em to me. And, I remember always wanting to tag after my sister. Tag along, you know, little pain in the butt sister I was. And me and my brother would like, follow my sister around. And we would fight. And, we would get on my sister’s nerves and, um, I don’t really remember much with my dad as a family, with him. I don’t really remember anything at all actually. Except one thing, they had this TV guide and on the front was Vee. Do you remember Vee the aliens that pulled the skin off their face that were humans?

JULIE: Mm-mm.

CARA: And they ate birds and snakes?

JULIE: No, I never saw that.

CARA: Well, there was an alien show and I was like, really scared of it. So I’d take the TV guide and hide it under the chair in the couch all the time. So that my parents couldn’t find it. That’s the only thing I can really remember with my mom and dad. Oh, yeah, I do remember one, one thing. I think I may have been 4 or 5. We went to see the movie E.T. We went to the movies. And that’s the only thing I can remember doing with my parents as a family when I was little was going to see that movie, E.T. Cause I remember there was a bunch of people around

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and my dad was carrying me and he bought me Reese’s Pieces. And that’s it. That’s all I can think of.

JULIE: Did you guys eat dinner, meals together as a family?

CARA: Yeah, we did.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: I think I remember one meal where um, my mom just let my brother feed himself and my dad was cutting up my spaghetti and twirling it with a fork and spoon so it would be like nice and neat, so I wouldn’t get all messy. And then he was feeding it to me. And that’s all I can remember.

JULIE: Oh okay. Yeah. Were your parents doing well when you were born, or were they fighting a lot- do you know?

CARA: They were doing well.

JULIE: When did they start getting into more arguments?

CARA: I think between the time I was five and the time I was seven.

JULIE: Oh, okay.

CARA: Because like, the the divorce happened when I was six, but they were still fighting and getting used to not being together when I was seven.

JULIE: Oh okay. And, so your mom was married to your sister’s dad before your dad.

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: When did, so, how did that happen with her getting divorced and then meeting your dad?

CARA: She’d always known my dad since high school. My sister’s dad and my dad were friends. So, [laughs] that’s pretty bad.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: That’s pretty bad because, um, they would play pool together and, my dad just had to open his big mouth. He was talking to Mike, my sister’s dad, my dad’s names Mike too by the way. But anyways,

JULIE: That’s confusing.

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CARA: Yeah, two Mikes, my mom must be a black widow. But anyway, my sister’s dad’s name is Mike and my dad’s name is Mike. Anyway, my dad said to Mike, said, “That Cindy is really good looking. I think I’m going to go out with her.” Or “Go with her.” However they said back in the 60’s or late 60’s, early 70’s.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

CARA: And Mike was like, “Oh you are.” And you know they were just playing pool and then uh, Mike drove out to my mom’s house when my mom was a teenager and then they starting seeing each other and she completely skipped my dad. And then, my um, mom and Mike had a baby, and it ended up dying when it was inside my mom’s body. And she named her Janie. And then like a year little, she had my sister. My sister was completely fine. And then like seven years later, I think seven years later, six or seven years later she married my dad. I don’t really know how they started going back out with each other or anything.

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: But they got married.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm and then, when were you born after they got. How long after they got married were you born?

CARA: I think they got married in 78, I was born in 79.

JULIE: Okay, so not too long.

CARA: Hang on just a minute. I have to use the restroom.

[Break]

JULIE: I guess, let’s see. Oh so, we were talking about how your mom got divorced from your sister’s dad.

CARA: My sister’s dad cheated on her a lot.

JULIE: Oh, okay.

CARA: So that’s how they ended up divorcing.

JULIE: And she was her, he was her first husband.

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Okay. Your dad was the second.

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

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JULIE: Your step-dad was the third.

CARA: My step-dad was actually the fourth. My mom, in between my stepdad and my real dad, she wanted to get out of Franklin. It was a real small town. Anyway she wanted to get out of Franklin because of my dad’s reputation and, you know, town’s people talk and she just didn’t want to be harassed or anything. So she married this guy named Shawn and he turned out to be gay.

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: That’s really horrible isn’t it? Married to somebody that’s gay and you don’t know they’re gay.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: So that must’ve been devastating for her.

JULIE: What do you remember about him?

CARA: He was really a Nelly queen. You know he acted like a sissy, a big sissy. He liked jewelry and um, I remember he had a Tina Turner record he liked. [laughs] I was little, so I don’t know. And um, I do remember he had a family and the family was real good to us. But after the divorce like, all the brother in laws and sister in laws had nothing to do with my brother and I. They just had nothing to do with any of us. And, um, I remember he had an aunt. I can’t even remember her name. Lee, Aunt Lee. And um, he had a nephew that was like, really deranged. And uh, I remember a funeral. We all had to go up to the coffin and pay our respects. And my cousin Jason, the one that’s deranged, his nephew, started touching her toes and playing with her feet. And I go, “Mom!” I said, “Look! Look at Jason!”

JULIE: Oh my gosh.

CARA: I pointed it out to her and she went and told his mom and he got the biggest spanking. He was in so much trouble for doing that. It was awful. I can’t believe he did that. I don’t see why he would want to play with a dead body’s feet. That’s sick, isn’t it?

JULIE: It’s a little weird.

CARA: Yeah it is.

JULIE: Yeah. Huh, so you were, involved, sorry. His family was involved in your life.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: His brothers and sisters or whatever.

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CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: And then they just had nothing to do with you after the divorce?

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay. How was that for you?

CARA: I was kind of disappointed. I didn’t know. I didn’t understand it, why they wouldn’t still talk to us or still come over or why we couldn’t still visit our cousins and stuff. It’s funny though, I got to be with Jason when he was um, 19 or 20 and I was like, 15 or 16. So I got to see my cousin Jason again. I used to hang out with him all the time. In fact I, I fixed he and my best friend up, but Jason turned out to be gay too.

JULIE: Oh.

CARA: And he was so stupid! [laughs] He went to- he thought he had a yeast infection and he went to the hospital to the emergency room to get it checked out and he called my friend on the phone and he goes, “Thanks to you I have a yeast infection and it won’t go away!” [laughs] And she she hung up on him. He was so crazy. He was so stupid. He said that one time he was going to tell his pastor because his pastor was mean to him because he was gay, “If you don’t like the way I am, move on down the fucking road!” [laughs] He was so stupid. And I know this is, this is like really gross, but you know what he said about my friend when they had sex? He said, “It smelled like cabbage!” [laughs]

JULIE: Oh.

CARA: He was so gross. He was like the grossest person I’ve ever known probably.

JULIE: But you got to see him again when you were older.

CARA: Yeah

JULIE: But you lost contact for a while after the divorce.

CARA: Yeah. I really like spending time with him too.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: We both worked at Dominos and we would take handbills, which were like coupons and we would pass them. We would put them on cars’ windows. But instead of doing that we would take the handbills over to his landlord’s house. And his landlord would be out doing something for the day, but they got cable TV. And we would watch um, the comedy channel. We would watch old reruns of uh, Saturday Night Live and eat lunch and then we would sit there all day until our shift was over and just throw the handbills in the trash and just sit and watch TV. And they never caught onto it at Dominos. [laughs] They thought we were out delivering them,

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putting them under the windshield wipers of cars. But we weren’t! We were just sitting at home watching TV.

JULIE: You guys had a good gig going.

CARA: Yeah. [laughs]

JULIE: That’s funny. So, um, so then your stepfather came in the picture after him.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

CARA: Um, I think, my mom married Shawn when I was six. I didn’t even go to the wedding. I think I didn’t go to the wedding cause I had chicken pox.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: And then um, when I was 8, my mom met my step dad. And he made a really bad first- no he was all right. When he took us swimming we went to the beach, it was a manmade lake or pond. It was real small, but there was like fishing on one side and then on one side there was swimming and diving and stuff. And then there was this little like cafeteria café thing there. Where you could get ice cream and sandwiches and pop and stuff. And our dad- our stepdad would take us to that and he’d get us ice cream and we’d go swimming with him and my mom. And then um, like their second date, he was drunk and um. He yelled at me and because I wouldn’t eat my uh, cheeseburger because he got it all wrong. It had a bunch of onions and mustard and I didn’t like any of that stuff, I just like cheese lettuce and tomato. But anyway because he was drunk he’d given them the wrong order. And since I wouldn’t eat it he took my whole meal away from me, he took away the French fries and the hamburger. And me and my brother sat in the back seat and my brother was quietly slipping me some of his fries.

JULIE: So he was very strict?

CARA: Yeah. And I think me and my brother were fighting too. One of the first few times that Bill was around. And he threatened us.

JULIE: What did he threaten-

CARA: I can’t remember what he exactly threatened us with. I think it was with the belt.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: He’s like, “I’m gonna use the belt on you if you don’t straighten up.”

JULIE: And when did he start using the belt on you?

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CARA: I’d say I was nine and my brother was seven.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: I know when I was 14 he hardly ever, you know, like I told you before, he hardly ever beat me with the belt. It was usually my brother getting the short end of the stick.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: Um, I remember when I was 14 he took my mom, me and my brother to the zoo. And, for some reason, he pushed me. And he pushed me really hard. I mean I almost fell down. And then, he started yelling at me in front of a whole bunch of people. I mean it was so humiliating. And then all I could do the rest of the time we were there at the zoo was sit quiet and just stare- stare down at my hands. You know I’d have my hands folded together in my lap and I’d just stare at them. And my feelings were so hurt. It just ruined it. I don’t even remember what I did.

JULIE: So, yeah, so he was really tough on you sometimes.

CARA: Yeah he was.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: I think he’s put me and my brother behind him. Because Carrie’s told him to write my brother before and um, I got a letter from him for Christmas and then I wrote him back. And then, I wrote him again, in uh January, telling him how I’m doing and stuff and he never wrote me back. So my mom thinks he’s just putting his life with his girlfriend beh- you know sticking to that life and putting ours beh- behind him. He’s he’s got a step-grandbaby that’s named after him.

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: His girlfriend’s daughter had a baby and they named it after my stepdad.

JULIE: Okay. And when did your mom, your mom and him got divorced?

CARA: Um, I think they got divorced when I was like, 12 or 13.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: I don’t know. It might’ve been later. I’m not sure. I can’t remember. But I do know they got remarried when I was 17.

JULIE: Okay.

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CARA: When I was Woodside and I was living on the streets. Cause I would run away a lot, just to get away from him. And they got remarried at a time when I was on the streets so I didn’t know about it. And then they got a divorce when I was probably 24.

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: I don’t know, I was older when they got divorced again. I think I might’ve been 23 or 22 when they got a divorce. But they had a house and everything. My uh, stepdad had to file for bankruptcy because he couldn’t afford the payments on the house anymore because he kept getting laid off from work.

JULIE: Oh yeah, that- how were things growing up money-wise for you when you were very little.

CARA: We were very poor.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: Cause my stepdad would drink – drink up most of the money.

JULIE: And when you, before then when your mom and dad-

CARA: Um I don’t really know. I didn’t really notice when my mom and dad. But um, my mom said he could budget money really well. And he knew- he didn’t drink like my stepdad did. He would set aside money for groceries. You know, for the Laundromat. For rent on the trailer. And I guess they didn’t have cable back then, or they didn’t have to pay cable, but, you know, he had everything, like spec- specified for the money. And everything went to like whatever it was supposed to go for. And he was really good with it. My dad was good with money.

JULIE: Okay. And, your mom worked too –right? Your mom was-

CARA: No. Not until I was six. Or five. Five or six. And then she became a nursing assistant.

JULIE: Oh, okay.

CARA: And she’s still a nursing assistant to this day. I think it’s her calling. She’s really good with the old people.

JULIE: Okay. So when you were little she would just stay home and take care of you guys?

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: You and your brother.

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

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JULIE: Okay.

CARA: I didn’t like it later on when she started to work because like, I knew, I remember I was at this one babysitter’s house where she was real snippy to me and she let her kids be mean to me. Like they would hit me and stuff. And I just wanted to go home, so I’d start fake puking. Like I would make myself sick by putting soap in my mouth.

JULIE: Wow.

CARA: And like putting my finger down my throat.

JULIE: How old were you?

CARA: Seven.

JULIE: Wow, that’s really young to be doing that.

CARA: Yeah. I just wanted my mom to quit working.

JULIE: How often would you fake being sick?

CARA: I remember one day I was in there, I was in bed all day from the time I got home from school, and all night until like midnight, until my mom got off work.

JULIE: Wow. So-

CARA: So I was fake- fake sick then. I didn’t ever tell anybody that I was fake sick either because I didn’t want to get in trouble.

JULIE: Yeah. Who would watch you guys and take care of you when she was working?

CARA: I can’t remember her name. She moved away though

JULIE: So it was a babysitter?

CARA: Yeah. And then after that it was spurts with other babysitters, short- a short time with other baby sitters and my grandma and my sister. And then my dad for a short time. And then my stepdad, when he was laid off work he would watch us. Or his brother Derrick would watch us. And there was this other lady, I think I was 10 or 11. Her name was Barbara. She used to be dating my stepdad’s cousin. And then they broke up, and then um, she started watching us. And her house was filthy. There was flies in there. There were maggots on the dishes. There was like a whole bunch of dishes piled up. Her bathroom, something was wrong with the sewer and the toilet wouldn’t flush so there was human waste in the toilet. I would remember after my mom would drop us off at like 6 o’clock in the morning. This was summer time too so it was extra hard to do. I would get up around 11 after we would sleep there for a little while at Barbara’s. And I would hold my breath and not even sit on the seat. I would like, squat above it. Use the

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restroom, you know, just pee. Made sure I didn’t have to do anything else because I didn’t want anything to splash up on me. It was really disgusting. And I would pee once. And then I would hold it from 11 o’clock that day until 6 o’clock when my mom got off work. And then she would take us home and then, I would hit the bathroom as soon as I got home.

JULIE: Wow.

CARA: But it was really horrible. It was really nasty and her son Peter was really mean to me. Like one time he hit me with these Nerf, uh, bats. He would hit me with them and when I would try to like retaliate and hit him back I would just get it twice as hard. So I finally just had to give up defending myself. And finally when I was like 10 or 11, me and my brother got the idea- well let’s just walk home. Let’s just, you know, run away from here. Sucks here. They treat us like crap. They’re mean to us, let’s just walk home. So we did. And Barbara was real scared cause she didn’t know where we were. And my mom came home from work early and she found us at home. And after there- after at first they were really mad at us. And then we told my mom and Bill how it was disgusting over there. How Peter was mean to us and how we couldn’t stand it. So they started letting us be at home by ourselves.

JULIE: Starting at age 11?

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: And, how old were you when you started going to Barbara’s?

CARA: I think nine.

JULIE: Okay. Your mom didn’t know how bad it was there?

CARA: I think she did, but, it was hard to find a babysitter for kids our age.

JULIE: Oh, okay.

CARA: Cause usually, you know, you can put little kids in daycare. Like little babies and little five year olds. You can put them in daycare. Once your kids get to be a certain age, it’s hard to find a babysitter for them.

JULIE: Yeah. You need to be entertained more.

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Sounds like they didn’t even really probably give you anything to do there.

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CARA: We just watched TV, whatever Barbara was watching. Or I read all the time.

JULIE: Oh, okay. Yeah. Um, you said that you were close with your stepdad.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: That you were sort of his pet – right?

CARA: Mm-hmmm. I was his favorite.

JULIE: Oh, his favorite.

CARA: But yeah, I did say pet.

JULIE: And, I can’t remember, maybe you said something about him, he would talk to you about stuff. Would he share things with you?

CARA: Yeah he shared a little bit of his family life with us.

JULIE: Oh, okay. What did he share with you?

CARA: Um, he started drinking when he was 14. His uh, brothers would leave him in a car and like a car that wasn’t turned on or anything. They’d leave him in there with alcohol. And then they’d go off with their girlfriends and their friends to do other bad stuff. So they would party too when they were supposed to be watching him. Um, he lived in a children’s home because when he was real little his dad was in jail and there were like five kids and they were all like real little. They got taken away from his mom. She couldn’t take care of ‘em I guess. Um, they’d go fishing a lot. And we’d go to cookouts a lot and um, horse shoes. We would go and play with our cousins there. Oh, that’s not really telling you much about him.

JULIE: That’s okay.

CARA: Well um, I can’t really think of anything else except those things.

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: Oh he did tell me that he was. My mom actually told me this. He was with a woman named Alicia and uh, she had twins. And my mom swore up and down that the twins were my stepdad’s. But then later on they thought my stepdad couldn’t father any children and,

JULIE: Oh, okay.

CARA: He was in the military. I know that much. I think he went AWOL. So it wasn’t a very good career. But he still gets veteran’s benefits. Cause he’s been, he’s been going to the VA off and on since I was small. Since I was like maybe 11. And um, he’s been trying to quit drinking off and on all of these years and he’s had relapses. He used to um, help me with my math

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homework. He would make biscuits and round steak. It was like this round steak with mushroom soup on it. And um, fried potatoes in a salad. He would make like, me and the family special meals. And, he worked in a grain elevator. Or not a grain elevator it was like a grain co-op place. And, I remember one time, I was afraid he was going to send me to bed because I did something bad when we got home from fishing. So I took this, I found it, I wanted to catch a fish to make him happy. So there was this dead catfish and you could tell it was pregnant, it was like getting ready to lay eggs. Cause it was huge. And there was, and I picked up the dead fish and I put it on my hook. But my line was all tangled up and knotted. And there’s no way I would’ve been able to cast it out. Or like pick it out. So I took this dead fish, I hooked it on the line and I, I went running up to him and I said, “Bill! Bill! Look what I caught!” And then he, it didn’t fool him for an instant. But I guess he thought it was funny, so I didn’t get in trouble when I got home. We would play basketball as a family. Me, my brother, my mom and Bill. We would go down to this elementary school that had a basketball hoop. And we would go shoot baskets. He would take us out for ice cream. We’d go to that beach. We’d go to movies sometimes. It was like a family. He’s prob-

JULIE: It was like a family?

CARA: Well, I meant like, a mom and dad and kids.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: That’s what I meant, like a family. I mean he was good to us at times. He taught me to braid on my ponies and my dolls. He taught me how to braid hair. Um, he helped me ride my first 10-speed. He bought me a scooter when I was younger because I wanted a scooter instead of a bike.

JULIE: So that was all when he was sober.

CARA: Yeah, and he let us have a dog. And she looked like Benji except she was brown, light brown, like a tan and white-spotted dog. And we had puppies but we had to get rid of them. He got us rabbits before. He bought me hamsters, and tropical fish, and stuff like that. He was pretty good to us when he was sober.

JULIE: How often would he drink?

CARA: I’d say every weekend. And every payday.

JULIE: Oh, okay.

CARA: But he was the only dad I ever knew really.

JULIE: Yeah.

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CARA: So like, now when I talk to people about him, like people here who ask about him, like he had this guy who owns this thrift store. Um, he asked about Bill and I say, well he’s doing fine. And I call him my dad. I always call him my dad.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: I don’t call him dad to his face. I just call him Bill.

JULIE: But now he’s not really keeping in contact with you anymore.

CARA: No, mm-mm. He did have a heart stent put in, in um, I think January.

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: But he could’ve healed up after that and then wrote me. But he didn’t.

JULIE: Um, let’s see. Um, did you, so I know you were, you got to stay by yourself when you were um,

CARA: Eleven.

JULIE: Yeah, eleven. Were you ever left alone when you were younger?

CARA: No.

JULIE: Oh, okay. Your mom was around.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Can you think of any other traumatic things that happened to you when you were, say, under the age of six? Like with your dad, or with them fighting or anything?

CARA: I got a really bad case of poison ivy.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: It swelled my eyes shut. It spread to my face and my eyes were like squinty.

JULIE: Ouch. How old were you?

CARA: I think I was like four or five. Yeah. Um, a neighbor girl trapped me under a wagon, er under a wheelbarrow. She sat on it and I couldn’t get out and I was crying and I was yelling for my mom. And my mom just got a funny feeling. She just knew something wasn’t right. So she went looking for me and she found me and rescued me.

JULIE: Oh that’s good.

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CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Anything else?

CARA: Nope that’s it.

JULIE: I know you said your mom would sometimes smack you, right?

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Um, what’s, any memories of that that stand out to you from when you were little?

CARA: No, none that I can think of.

JULIE: Oh, okay.

CARA: No, I can’t think of any.

JULIE: Okay. And what was it like, do you remember when she was taking care of you and your brother when you were like, up to age five?

CARA: Um, I remember we used to team up on her.

JULIE: Uh huh. You and your brother?

CARA: Yeah. [laughs]

JULIE: What would you do?

CARA: Well one time we didn’t have a single ornament on our tree because we would take them off of the tree and smash them. With our feet.

JULIE: Oh wow.

CARA: Or like, you know we’d have shoes on

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: But we’d take the ornaments off and smash them on the floor. And we like, messed with the lights on the strings, or on the strands so that they wouldn’t work. That they would flash on. And then there’d be a whole bunch of lights missing and stuff. So we didn’t have a single decoration on our tree one year. [laughs]

JULIE: Awww

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CARA: And then we would like tease my mom and run away from her when she would try to punish us. And like, did I tell her about when she went down to burn firewood in this house, this old house. Well she would go downstairs and she would chop wood and put it in the furnace. And we would be upstairs and we were real little and we didn’t know what she was doing down there. And we asked her what she was doing down there and she said she had a boyfriend down there. [laughs]

JULIE: Oh yeah. That’s funny yeah.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Well, I think that’s it.

[Break]

JULIE: I was just wondering about, I saw that it said that, you’d mentioned sexual abuse? At least the doctor noted it in your chart.

CARA: Yeah. Um, when my mom was going through the divorce, I had to stay at this babysitter. And, I was laying on the couch with her husband. And uh, he’d gotten a blanket and was touching me.

JULIE: Oh.

CARA: And I thought it was normal because I thought he was doing the same thing to my brother. I didn’t think anything of it.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: And then later on in school, in the first grade, they told us about. That it was wrong for people to do that. And to um, tell someone that you care about and that cares about you and that you love and trust. And I told my brother and my brother told my mom and she didn’t do anything about it.

JULIE: I’m sorry.

CARA: But then, but then like, a couple years ago she said she was sorry she didn’t do anything about it. But she was going through a rough time and she was going through the divorce and she wouldn’t know how to pursue it.

JULIE: How old were you when that happened?

CARA: Like six.

JULIE: Oh okay. How long did it happen, how many times did it happen?

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CARA: Just once.

JULIE: Just once. Okay. And was that the only time anything like that happened?

CARA: Yup.

JULIE: Okay. Nothing happened when you were, cause it said something about when you were 14 with a neighbor, an older neighbor?

CARA: No.

JULIE: Okay. It was just wrong in your chart.

CARA: Yeah, it was wrong.

JULIE: So that was the only incidence of that.

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Thanks for letting me know about that.

CARA: Okay. You’re welcome.

Third Interview with Cara

JULIE: I thought we could start with um, the first psychotic break you had.

CARA: Um, I was 14.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: Kids kept picking on me at school- bullying me. And nobody could do anything about it really. And I was, I was too scared to tell either a guidance counselor. I was meeting with the guidance counselor because of my dysfunctional family life. And I was too scared to tell her cause I thought it would make it worse on me. And also my mom and stepdad, um, went on a break. And then he ended up, they got back together and then he ended up going to the VA. And um, the VA hospital, because he was in the military when he was younger and he was an alcoholic. So he went to the hospital to dry up.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: And um, I started not being able to sleep and my nerves were like really bad. So um, and I was suicidal. And my mom talked to my guidance counselor and she told her about a children’s hospital. So I ended up going there. It was Southport was what it was called. And I stayed probably about a month.

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JULIE: Yeah. So, um, you were psychotic?

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: What was going on?

CARA: Uh, just that I couldn’t sleep and I thought my family and I were being poisoned by carbon monoxide. And um, after they put me on the medicine, I was allergic to it. It was Zoloft, and when I was home, after it was in my system for a while, I’d take the pill and I’d immediately vomit it back out. It was like projectile vomiting. So I wasn’t on any kind of medicine until I was like 15. Cause my mom stopped giving it to me. But then when I was 15 I had another breakdown and I went to the hospital.

JULIE: What was that breakdown like?

CARA: Um, that one was different, because I think, this boy I was with- I was with an older boy. He was like 18 and I was 15. He tried to rape me. And I think he slipped me a roofie or put acid in my drink. And it totally messed me up. I was like, I thought I could burn holes through pop cans because I had acid. And I thought it was like acid, you know, like the chemical acid. And, I thought I could like, suck peoples’ life energy. And I ate raw meat. And, I like drank vinegar and orange juice to try to clean my system, to get the- get the acid out.

JULIE: How long did this go on for?

CARA: Mmm, probably a couple weeks and then my mom sent me back to Southport.

JULIE: Okay. What was Southport like?

CARA: It was actually a nice hospital. But they um, I went back again and again. Every summer or every winter. It was at least once a year. And I had heard from a man that was friends with my mom that used to work there, that they would purposely give the kids the wrong kind of medicine that wouldn’t help them. So that they could get insurance for them and the parents would pay for them. Because my mom was paying out of her pocket, plus she had insurance for me from the hospital. So, they were crooked.

JULIE: Hmmm. So you would go in there every summer and every winter?

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Wow. Starting when you were 14 up until.

CARA: Up until I was 18. And then I went here when I was 18, to the hospital here in Woodside.

JULIE: Okay. Mm-hmmm. Um, and you said that people had been bullying you- when you were 14?

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CARA: Yeah. Um, I was, my family was really poor and we lived in a small town and a lot of the small town, the people had money.

JULIE: Oh, okay.

CARA: I don’t know if they just had regular good jobs, but I know some of them were doctors and stuff. The kids’ parents. But um, they wore like designer shoes and name-brand clothing, and we were poor because my mom was a nursing assistant and my step-dad didn’t- my stepdad didn’t work in the winter time. And when he did work in the summer, very little of it went towards the household. It was mostly with him drinking.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: So we were really poor and I was also like really good in school so I was called a nerd. And um, you know I made straight A’s usually. But, I wasn’t just called a nerd. I mean, I was picked on quite a bit.

JULIE: What would they do when they picked on you?

CARA: Um, this one kid kept poking me on the arm and grabbing my arm and stuff. Because I wouldn’t help him cheat. Because he wanted answers and I acted like I couldn’t hear them, I’d say “What? What? What?” And he’d ask me if I was deaf. And he was just really mean to me.

JULIE: Yeah. And you were afraid to tell.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: What were you afraid that they’d do if you told?

CARA: That they would just make fun of me worse.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: I wish I would’ve struck- struck out. You know, I wish I would’ve hit him or something. You know I wish I would’ve stood up for myself.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: If it were now, if it were like that now I would. Cause I’ve changed quite a bit since when I was younger. Because I used to be very timid, and docile. And now I’m not as timid. I’m kind of, I’m assertive now.

JULIE: Yeah. That’s really good.

CARA: Yeah.

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JULIE: Um, and so you mentioned that you were depressed when you were 14. What was it like when you were depressed?

CARA: Um, I really missed my family being back together. I missed my stepdad. And, another thing that set me off. Was I got up early one morning for school, to eat breakfast and they showed a severed head on the TV, on the news. This woman had gone missing and they found her head at like a creek, and it was real. I mean it really showed it. And, it was getting ready to come on and it was at the commercial and they said, you know, we’ll be right back to show the footage. And my mom said, “Are you sure you want to watch this? Are you sure you’re ready for this?” And I’m like, “Yeah.” And I saw it, and it just messed me up. Cause I was very sensitive, tender-hearted.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: And my mom- she didn’t know, like, anything bad would happen, but she would give me Benadryls to help me sleep and they didn’t make me drowsy. I started taking like more and more of them. And I heard that if you take a bunch of them, they speed you up instead of slowing you down. And I took a bunch and I couldn’t sleep. I mean, I would go days without sleeping.

JULIE: Wow.

CARA: And I would still have to go to school.

JULIE: What was that like for you?

CARA: It was awful, because I think I used to sleep with my eyes open and I didn’t know it. Like in class. I mean I was like really foggy. And like drowsy and stuff.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: And like my grades started to slip. And I lost a bunch of weight. And I like hardly ate anything.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: I didn’t have any friends either. I had just quit being friends with this girl that was friends with me since like, second grade. She had dated my cousin and she started being real rude to me and hateful. And I was over at her house and she was calling my cousin on the phone instead of paying attention to me. She was talking to him, which I thought was really rude and that she shouldn’t have done. So I hung up on her when she was on the phone with him. And it made her really mad. So we quit being friends, and we quit talking. So, so I was in school in 8th grade and I had no friends. And then I came back from the hospital and I’d heard that this one girl had gone to the hospital too. Her name was Sarah Smith and I asked her real quietly, I said, “Did you go to Southport?” And she’s like- “Yes. Did you?” And I said, “Yes.” And then after that we started being best friends. But like, in 8th grade I had no friends except for her. And I

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made friends with her quickly and she invited to dinner at her house and we got to know each other and we were best friends after that.

JULIE: Nice.

CARA: One time there was nobody in the school. It was after school. And the janitor door was open. And there were these huge boxes of Snickers and- and we were like- let’s get those Snickers! And she went in there with her book bag and she goes- you keep- you keep looking out. And this was at the end of the year. And she took like, we got like 96 Snicker bars and she put them in her schoolbag and we ran away from the school.

JULIE: That’s funny.

CARA: Yeah! And we had Snicker bars for like a really long time.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: That’s bad. You know, it’s stealing. But it was so fun. [laughs] Nobody ever found out.

JULIE: So it sounds like not having friends was part of the reason you were feeling depressed when you were 14.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: I’m used to it now though, because I don’t- well I have friends here, people that I talk to. But I’m probably never going to see them again. But, before I came in the hospital, I didn’t have any friends, because that the people that I was friends with did drugs and they were friends with my ex-boyfriend. And my ex-boyfriend and I broke up. He’s the one that burnt me on the foot with a crack pipe.

JULIE: Ok, the one that got you hooked on Lortab?

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Yeah I was going to ask more about him.

CARA: Yeah, um, wait a minute.

JULIE: Sure.

CARA: But he had all these friends and when I was with him, they became my friends but they still did drugs and drank, so I couldn’t be friends with them anymore.

JULIE: Okay.

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CARA: And also, they were his friends. So, before I came in the hospital, I had nobody. I had my mom and my sister, so that was good. But, I’m used to being alone.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: It’s not that bad when you have something to do.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. Yeah. Um, so with the guy who was the one who burned you with the crack pipe and um, you’d talked about how he’d shifted from being a normal guy to being very bizarre.

CARA: Yeah, he was.

JULIE: How do you make sense out of that?

CARA: Um, I think he was on drugs. Like, I do know that for sure he drank and smoked pot. But, I think the whole time we were together, I know he did drugs with me, but like, after I got out of the hospital and went to live with him, I think he went to his friend’s house and did pills and crack by himself without me knowing. And, I think it kinda’ got to his brain and it made him bizarre. Because there’s some really strange things that he did. I mean he would- he would say strange things. And um, gross, and he’d do gross things like, I was in my pajamas and my pants were on the floor in the corner of my bedroom. Cause he had his own bedroom and I had my own small bedroom until I moved out and was on my own. And he peed on my pants. And he wiped himself on my pants. And he tore up my pictures. He tore up my dishes. Smashed my dishes. Um, he told me one time that he watched his sister put in a tampon. So that’s like really gross. I mean he was –he was very bizarre acting there at the end.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: And, like I said before, he burnt my foot with a crack pipe and,

JULIE: What happened with that?

CARA: Well, I was seriously depressed because my son had gone to live with his dad and I was all alone with Mike- that’s my boyfriend’s name. And um, we weren’t supposed to spend like a whole bunch of money. There was a limit that we were supposed to use. But he ended up stealing $200 off me and um, I was drunk and we were at a motel because the plumbing didn’t- we didn’t have water or electricity in our apartment. We were just moving to a different apartment. And so we went to the motel and stayed and I was like, so drunk that I was passed out on the bed and he had been buying crack and smoking it. And, he burnt my foot with a crack pipe and I didn’t even wake up. I didn’t even know. I didn’t know until after, when he told me what he did and I looked at my foot. I still have a scar. See that? [shows foot]

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: It’s like a crescent moon. That’s what that is.

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JULIE: Ouch.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Yeah, um, wow. And you said, um, you lost, well your son’s father took him away?

CARA: He didn’t take him away, I signed him over because I knew I wasn’t mentally stable and I could barely take care of myself. I knew I couldn’t take care of my son.

JULIE: Oh, okay.

CARA: Like I wouldn’t be able to get him to school on time. I could barely cook. I mean I just couldn’t function. I don’t think I was on the right kind of medicine. Or it had built a tolerance in my system and it didn’t work anymore because I’d been on it for years.

JULIE: What was getting in the way of you functioning?

CARA: Um, I’d like hear messages in songs and I thought everybody was talking about me and everybody was staring about- staring at me. And, strangers I didn’t even know. Like people around the neighborhood block. I didn’t even know ‘em and I thought they were talking about me.

JULIE: When was this?

CARA: Last summer.

JULIE: Oh okay. Um, and you were saying that, you’d said that um, when you had the psychotic break from the Lortabs, was that last summer or?

CARA: No, that was last winter.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: Not this past winter, the winter before.

JULIE: Ok, this last summer was after the Lortabs.

CARA: It would be, it would be 2011.

JULIE: Ok, when you had the Lortab.

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: And then the summer where you were having the issues we were just talking about would’ve been summer of

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CARA: 2011

JULIE: Okay. Um, I, when I was going over our interviews from before you’d said you’d talk to people who weren’t there?

CARA: Yeah, it was like a blur though. I mean everything happened so fast and time has gone by so fast and it’s just muddled. Really, I can barely remember a lot of this stuff. Um, I would hear voices and, they – they knew things about me that only I knew. And, I thought they were real people talking to me. Because see, my mom lives in an apartment building and when I would go to stay with her, up above her, through the roof of her apartment building I thought I heard this woman talking to me, saying things.

JULIE: Like what?

CARA: Like she would talk about, um, that the police were going to get me and barbeque me. And that I had AIDS and that I was going to go into an AIDS cell block and they were going to, the women were going to cut me and beat me to death and uh, she told me to go outside and assault a priest. Cause my mom lives close to a Catholic church. She told me to go outside and assault him. And, she said that Mike- she was black. And I don’t have anything against black people or anything but I don’t know why she was black. I mean the way the voice was. And, she called him white boy. She said, “White boy and his friends have been playing you.” And, it was just very bizarre. I’d never heard anything like that before.

JULIE: How did you feel when you heard her voice?

CARA: I was scared. And I was irritated and I was depressed and angry. And I wanted her to shut up. And I would answer her out loud and look up at the roof and talk to her and I just wanted her to be quiet and she wouldn’t. And my mom didn’t hear her. My mom couldn’t hear her.

JULIE: Yeah. Sounded like she was right there, but your mom couldn’t hear her. Was that the only voice you heard?

CARA: Yeah, actually it was. It was very strange. It was scary actually. And then I heard messages in, um, music. Like um, outside peoples’ stereos in their car. And this one said that my nephew was raped because of me. Because he was in jail and um, this one message told me to uh, stab my boyfriend. Which I didn’t do. I controlled myself. One said I had AIDS. And one, crap I can’t think what the other one said.

JULIE: You talked about one saying, “This is unprofessional.”

CARA: Yes, that’s one I couldn’t think of said. I swear it sounded like a car going by and it sounded like handcuffs, you know how they rattle and they make a noise? Like a metal noise? That was the noise the car was making and then, on the song, the song in the car said, “This is unprofessional” to my boyfriend. And I thought he was an undercover cop.

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JULIE: Mike?

CARA: Yeah. And then I swear one time when I was in the hospital, I was in the um, emergency room and I was handcuffed to the bed. And um, cause they didn’t want me to wander off or anything- I think. And, um, I swear I heard, he might not’ve been talking about Mike, he might’ve been talking about somebody else. But I saw these- this cop talking to a nurse there, a male nurse. And he said, “She got with a cop-turned-snitch and a snitch-turned-pastor and he found- he found out she was doing drugs and he turned her in.” And I don’t know if he was talking about me or not, but I thought he was, and I thought he was talking about Mike- my boyfriend. It was very bizarre.

JULIE: So that he would’ve been a cop-turned-snitch and then a snitch turned into a minister?

CARA: Yeah. It’s very strange isn’t it?

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: I’m just so glad I don’t hear voices anymore.

JULIE: Yeah. How long did you hear that woman’s voice?

CARA: All the time. Every time I was over at my mom’s, she started talking.

JULIE: Only at your mom’s?

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Huh.

CARA: That’s why I thought she lived there. That’s why I thought she was a real person.

JULIE: Always at your mom’s and only at your mom’s.

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: For how long? From?

CARA: Probably a month.

JULIE: A month, okay. Yeah. Um, and you said you’d seen things that weren’t there?

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: What did you see?

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CARA: Like I’d see things out of the corner of my eye. Like in my mom’s house I saw bats, up on the ceiling in the kitchen. And I heard them, like I heard their wings flapping. And I like, looked up directly at it, at where the noise was coming from and nothing was there.

JULIE: Anything else that you would see?

CARA: Yeah, I don’t think this guy was doing a drug deal, but at the time I thought he knew one of my boyfriend’s friends, and he was on the phone with him. But I saw this guy across the street and it sounded like he had the person on speaker that he was talking to, and it sounded like one of my boyfriend’s friends saying that he was going to snap my neck. And that’s it.

JULIE: That’s scary.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay. That was the only other thing that you saw that wasn’t-

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: And did you, any idea why you saw bats?

CARA: No.

JULIE: Ok, no connection to bats.

CARA: No.

JULIE: Um, let’s see.

CARA: I wasn’t even sure if they were bats though, they could’ve been birds. I’m not sure. One of the two.

JULIE: What was going on when you would see them?

CARA: Nothing. Like the house was quiet except for the woman. The woman’s voice talking to me. And that was it.

JULIE: How were you getting along with your mom at the time?

CARA: She was good to me. She, I’d help her cook supper. Like I helped her make meatloaf once. And I helped her peel potatoes. And we would watch TV together.

JULIE: Okay. So you were getting along fine.

CARA: Yeah, she’s my best friend really. She’s good to me. Yeah.

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JULIE: Um, when, so, when you were 14 and you were severely depressed, did you want to die?

CARA: No. At that point I didn’t want to die. I think it crossed my mind. But I didn’t do anything to, you know I didn’t try a suicide attempt or anything.

JULIE: Okay. Um, let’s see, when, when you were, you talked about feeling like there was something wrong with you, at some point, like men cheating on you and wondering if there was something wrong with you.

CARA: Um no, I just thought. My sister had a book about co-dependent women, and I read it. And when I was older I can relate to that. Because I would always pick bad guys.

JULIE: Okay. Um, and you talked about being, so bi-polar.

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Manic and then depressed.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: So, what’s it like when you’re manic?

CARA: I would stay up for days. I would talk really fast too. I had a lot of energy so I would exercise and I would walk everywhere and I cleaned my room.

JULIE: And how did you relate to other people when you were manic?

CARA: I was really energetic and I was like really happy and I would talk to people and I don’t think they thought anything was wrong at first.

JULIE: When was the first time you were manic?

CARA: When I was 15.

JULIE: So when did they figure out something was wrong?

CARA: When that guy I was with slipped that drug in my drink.

JULIE: Oh okay.

CARA: My mom thought it was just my illness, but I don’t think it was. I think he did try to put a drug in my drink. Cause the- the water that he gave me, cause it was real hot out when I was over at his house staying with him- you know, hanging out with him cause he was my boyfriend at the time. The water was cloudy.

JULIE: So you remember that.

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CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: And he tried to rape you.

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: What do you remember about that?

CARA: Um, I was like still a virgin, so I would just make out with him. And he took me underneath a bridge and it was dark out, it was like, probably midnight and nobody else was around. And he held me down underneath the bridge and I like, I had my hand free, so I grabbed his hair and I pulled it and I told him to get the F off me. And he did. And then I walked, was walking away from him and he said, “wait! I’m sorry!” And he caught up to me and he said “I’m sorry. Did I hurt you? Did I scare you? Has something like that happened to you before?” And I was like, well I felt like you were trying to rape me. And he was like- “I thought you liked it.” So, he didn’t completely rape me.

JULIE: Sounds like it was close.

CARA: Yeah it was.

JULIE: Were you scared?

CARA: Yeah I was. I was mad too.

JULIE: Yeah. So, when did he slip you the acid or whatever?

CARA: It was after that.

JULIE: Okay. And then how long after that did you have your manic episode?

CARA: I um, was staying up for days. I dyed my hair. I dyed my brother’s hair with me.

JULIE: And this started after the incident and after-

CARA: Yeah that was after- after the close rape. And after him slipping me drugs. And, I broke up with him. And I bought him a rose and I had borrowed one of his shirts and I ripped it up with a knife. And I went to his house and there was all these people there and I wanted to humiliate him. So I told him- I said, “You tried to rape me.” And um, I had told him that I still loved him, cause I bought him a rose and I told him I was sorry. And, I was like, I talked to this guy that was friends with him and his name was Eric, and he was actually one of my mom’s boyfriend’s sons. So I used to live with him. And I told him, I said, “But I love him! And I want to marry him.” And he like calmed me down and he was real nice to me. And he said, “You don’t love him. It’s just a thing you’ve got now because you’re too young.” And he said, “There will be plenty more guys.” And he was real nice to me. And um, did I- oh I told you that I ate raw meat.

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JULIE: Mm-hmmm. What would you eat?

CARA: It was raw hamburger. And, cause I thought I was a vampire. And, I became boyfriend and girlfriend with this one guy that was like, he was 19 or 20 and he told me that his ex- girlfriend, his son’s mom, died of AIDS and that like messed me up. Cause I was real sad for him and I was real interested in him. And, you know, and um. I stayed up for days and my mom finally put me in the hospital.

JULIE: What would you do when you stayed up?

CARA: I would listen to music. That’s all I can remember doing when I would stay up for days. I think I did wander around town too, while it was dark out. Or real early in the morning.

JULIE: So it sounds like this all started right after he tried to rape you.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: It did. I don’t know if it was the drugs that he gave me, or if it was the illness. I can’t be sure.

JULIE: You said that you were angry at him.

CARA: Mm-hmmm. See because you can’t find acid in a urine test. They have to do a spinal tap. And when I went to the hospital they gave me a urine test and they did blood screens and they didn’t find anything. That’s why I think it was acid.

JULIE: Okay. That would make sense then.

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Um, so then, after you got out of the hospital you were- you’d calmed down.

CARA: Mm-hmmm. I was completely lucid.

JULIE: And then when was the next time you became manic?

CARA: Um, I didn’t go to the hospital again until I was 16, during the summer. The guy, the 19 or 20-year-old guy that I was interested in- not the one that tried to rape me. It was another one, his name was Patrick. We had gone out for a year and he cheated on me and I went to his house and I uh, took like three handfuls of Tylenols and I told him what I did. And he was, he had to drive me to the hospital. And they called my mom and they pumped my stomach with charcoal. They put a tube down my throat and um, after that they put me in Southport- in the children’s hospital again.

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JULIE: Mm-hmmm. So you tried to kill yourself that time.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: So you weren’t really manic that time, you were more depressed?

CARA: Yeah, because he cheated on me. And after he brought me to the hospital, he was supposed to wait in the waiting room and he didn’t. He went right to that girl’s house. So like, I was with him but, only, after that happened it was off and on. And then I finally got over him when I was 17 and I uh, had a boyfriend that I became serious with. His name was Carl. And um, we were going to get married and everything and have kids together. And then my mom decided to move me here. Cause she wanted a fresh start.

JULIE: So you both moved to Woodside?

CARA: No, he didn’t. He stayed.

JULIE: No, you and your mom did.

CARA: Me, my mom, and my stepdad. And my brother actually stayed in Countryside cause he had a friend that he could stay with. And um, he wasn’t on medicine- my brother wasn’t at the time even though he needed it.

JULIE: Oh, okay.

CARA: So um, my mom kept me with her because I had to be on medicine. And that was when my dad started being abusive- my stepdad started being abusive to me. And um, that’s when I started running away, is when I was 17. I killed my mom’s parakeet because I wanted to kill her and I knew that I couldn’t do that. So I like squeezed her parakeet to death. And um.

JULIE: How old were you?

CARA: 17. I felt really bad about it too. I still feel bad about it to this day. I’ve told her I’m sorry and we’ve made amends though.

JULIE: Why did you want to- oh sorry, go ahead.

CARA: Um, she was really abusive to me. She would put me down. She called me an F-ing whore, when she found out that I wanted to stay in Countryside. And she’d tell me I was nuts like my dad. I told her I’d be a better mom than she ever was. And um, that I hated her and I wished she was dead. And then that night when we all went to sleep, I was at my grandma’s house, we were staying there before we moved to Woodside. And um, I snuck out of my bed and grabbed the bird and just squeezed it to death. It was real quick. I didn’t torture it or anything. But I felt really bad that I did that. And um, the next day I took a bunch of Tylenol PMs for the buzz and I fell asleep- deep asleep. And my grandma would keep putting her finger under my

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nose to make sure I was still breathing. And um, after that, the day after I took those pills my mom put me in here in Woodside. Yep.

JULIE: So, it’s sounds like something happened before every single incident you’ve had.

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Like, so the first one was the bullying and your stepdad – when you were 14.

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: And then the second one was, your boyfriend cheating on you

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Or no, yeah, that was the third one-

CARA: Yeah. That was the third one.

JULIE: The second one was almost being raped. And then the third one was-

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay. And then the fourth one was, your being so angry at your mom

CARA: Actually that was the fifth one.

JULIE: That was the fifth one.

CARA: I had another one when I was 17.

JULIE: Before that?

CARA: Yeah, they put me in the children’s hospital- Southport.

JULIE: What happened that time?

CARA: Um, my mom and stepdad broke up again. But that wasn’t what triggered me. I don’t know what triggered me really. I just felt suicidal and I was in this class at school. It was this childcare program and the other girls were really mean to me and the teacher was like, rude to me and bossy and I pierced my eyebrow and my nose and they kicked me out of the class. And I was in study hall all day. And I kinda’ wanted to get kicked out. And I went to um, the children’s hospital when I was 17 cause I wouldn’t- I was suicidal and depressed really bad and then I was only there about a week or two weeks. And then they put me on, I think Paxil- I’m not sure, I- or Prozac. I don’t know which, they put me on one of those and it helped a little and I got out. And then I ended up going back to that class cause I wanted to graduate early. And then um, I was ok,

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and then the summer when I was 17, that’s when I went to the hospital here after I killed my mom’s bird.

JULIE: Okay. And um, when you were depressed the time before in that- with the class and everything, when you were suicidal. Why did you want to kill yourself?

CARA: I don’t know, I was just depressed. It wasn’t cause of my mom and stepdad breaking up and it wasn’t cause of the class. I think it was more internal.

JULIE: How did you feel?

CARA: I wanted to sleep all the time. I didn’t hardly eat. It was like hardly ever that I ate. And, I wanted to stab myself with a butcher knife. Or ah, throw a hairdryer in my bathtub.

JULIE: What did you want to get away from?

CARA: I don’t know.

JULIE: How did you feel about yourself?

CARA: I hated myself.

JULIE: Was that new?

CARA: No, I’ve gotten used to feeling that way about myself though.

JULIE: When did you start-

CARA: Cause I’ve never felt really good about myself ever- as far back as I can remember.

JULIE: How have you felt about yourself?

CARA: Well, I hated myself. And, I wanted to be something different. I wanted to be like really pretty. Or like really skinny.

JULIE: What messages did you get about yourself when you were little growing up, from your mom and your dad, do you remember?

CARA: They’d always pick on me about my weight.

JULIE: Ok, and did they ever say anything- what else did they say to you about you?

CARA: Um, my mom, when I was a teenager, she was close to my brother and she favored my brother. They would do things without me. I don’t know if they went to the movies or they went on car rides without me. And she’d call me a stick in the mud.

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JULIE: And when you were little did your parents, I mean, sometimes, what other messages did they give you about yourself when you were little?

CARA: Well, like, when I was, when I was like 11 or 10, we went to my aunt’s house for Christmas and uh, my mom was playing cards and I said the back on one of the cards- the picture on it looked like a cow and I was eating a cookie, a Christmas cookie my aunt had made. And my mom goes, “You’re going to be a cow if you keep eating those cookies.” So it was really mean. They’d say mean things like that to me.

JULIE: How did you feel when she said that?

CARA: Um, it hurt my feelings. I almost started crying. I had to leave the room cause I would’ve cried.

JULIE: What would’ve happened if you’d cried?

CARA: She’d probably tell me to stop crying and get over it. And my dad would like pat my stomach and say, “You’re getting pretty hefty there.” Stuff like that.

JULIE: Did they ever tell you you were pretty?

CARA: Once in a great while.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: It wasn’t a very loving home I was in. It was pretty dysfunctional.

JULIE: Yeah. Um, any other dysfunctional specific things you can tell me?

CARA: Um, I don’t know. I guess my stepdad was pretty mean to us when he was drunk. Like one night he was babysitting us and we made him mad, but before that he told us we could do whatever we wanted. And then, and then we were playing and he brought us in the kitchen and he yelled at us and then he made us stand in the corner for like hours. It had to have been, like nine hours. Cause we were crying and our nose was running and so we’d wipe it on the wall, cause he wouldn’t let us out of the corner to blow our nose. And, our mom got off work and it was like 11 o’clock and we were still in the corner. And it made her really mad and she put a stop to stuff like that.

JULIE: How old were you when that happened?

CARA: I’d say nine or 10. We were pretty young.

JULIE: So, any other things like that that he did?

CARA: Um, I already told you this, but I’ll tell you again. He’d beat my brother with a belt.

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JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: And every once in a while I got the belt too. But he would make us go in our rooms. He’d make us stay in bed all day like we were grounded to the bed. Um.

JULIE: What if you had to go to the bathroom?

CARA: We could go to the bathroom but then we had to go right back to bed.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: And um, he’d make us do chores. He’d ground us to the house. We weren’t allowed out to play with our friends. I don’t know. That’s just about it I can think of.

JULIE: Um, and with your mom and stepdad, um, what do you remember about them fighting and her kicking him out and-

CARA: Uh, I remember I thought it was really stupid because they would get in fights and she would kick him out and then she would run to the bar or run to his- his um, room to get him back. And they would make up and he would come back. And then a little while later she would kick him out again and he’d have his own room. Not in the house, like his own sleeping room.

JULIE: Oh, he’d rent a room somewhere.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: And then she would run to his sleeping room and they’d make up. And he’d come back. It was really stupid I thought. I mean, why kick him out if you’re just going to get back with him?

JULIE: Were you afraid that he wasn’t going to come back?

CARA: I think I would’ve had a better life if he didn’t come back. I think our lives would’ve been better if it was just the three of us. My mom and my brother and me.

JULIE: You said when you were 14, I think you’d said that part of the reason you were depressed was that they’d split.

CARA: Yeah, I loved him but, and I thought of him as my dad, cause he’s all I had really. And I was depressed when they split but, I still thought it was stupid and, you know when I was a teenager I remember I wanted them to split up and I knew that we would have a better life if she wasn’t with him.

JULIE: Yeah. Did she ever threaten to kick you out?

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CARA: Um, they did kick me out once.

JULIE: When was that?

CARA: Um, I was on the street and I had nowhere to live and I was staying with them and uh, I don’t even know what I did. I don’t even think I did anything and my stepdad kicked me out and I told him- “You know what, I’d rather die before I came to live with you again. And I don’t care if I’m on the streets every night of my life, I will never come back here again.”

JULIE: How come?

CARA: Because he was verbally abusive. Like he would criticize everything. Like I didn’t know my mom was working and I came to the house and my clothes was there and I had to get on this nice dress. And it was winter time, but I had to dress nice for a job interview. And, my dad, my stepdad looked at me and said, “You look like shit.” And then so, I like, went in the bedroom and changed into some clothes and he’s like, “You’re never going to get a job looking like that.” So I changed twice. You know, for his approval of getting an interview and getting a job. You know, at least I was trying to work, I was trying to do something positive with my life.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: And I told my mom about what he said and it made her mad and she stood up for me. She told him, “At least she’s trying to get a job.”

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: And he told me one time when I was 17, because I told him that I’d just run away again. And he goes, “Well you’ve always got your thumb and your ass.” Which means thumb- means to hitchhike. And ass is, I can have sex for car rides. I guess that’s what he meant. Which is like really gross. And that’s a horrible thing for a parent to tell their daughter.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: And I told my grandma about it and it made my grandma mad and she never liked him again after that.

JULIE: How old were you when he said that to you?

CARA: I was 17.

JULIE: Okay. So, when you were six, so if we went through a timeline of your life, the major things- when you were six your parents got divorced. And then your dad moved out when you were six. And then your mom got remarried when you were 8.

CARA: Mm-hmmm. To a gay guy.

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JULIE: Oh yeah, the gay guy.

CARA: Yeah. [laughs] That’s crazy isn’t it! How could she not know he was gay?

JULIE: Yeah. And then she divorced him when you were-

CARA: I was probably nine or ten.

JULIE: And then she married you stepdad when you were

CARA: Ten or eleven somewhere around in there.

JULIE: Yeah. And then between then and 14 nothing big happened?

CARA: Uh uh- except when I was 14 I went to the hospital for the first time.

JULIE: Yeah, when you were 14 your mom and stepdad split up. You went to the hospital for the first time.

CARA: Well, no actually they didn’t split up, he went to the VA hospital.

JULIE: Oh, he went to the VA.

CARA: To overcome his drinking.

JULIE: Ok, so he went there.

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: Um, but you were upset that he was gone?

CARA: And I had no friends and I was being made fun of at school.

JULIE: Yeah. And then at 15, you were almost raped.

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: And you had that other incident.

CARA: I had the other mental breakdown.

JULIE: Yeah.

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CARA: And then when I was 16, I was cheated on by a boyfriend. And then I took three handfuls of Tylenol in his bathroom. And um, when I was 17, it just surfaced again. My illness surfaced again.

JULIE: Was that before or after you were running away?

CARA: That was before.

JULIE: The illness surfaced before you were running away.

CARA: Yeah. I was really severely depressed and suicidal. And then when I was 17 again-

JULIE: Oh, and your mom wanted you to move- oh wait, no.

CARA: No, that was completely after that incident, it was completely separate.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: And then when I was 17 again, I moved, we moved to Woodside and I was staying with my grandma and I killed my mom’s bird and my mom backed me up into a corner of the washroom and she was going to hit me, and my grandma stopped her. And then um, like a few days after that, my mom took me to the Riverside hospital, the psych ward.

JULIE: Ok, that was the parakeet, after the parakeet.

CARA: Yeah. And um,

JULIE: Then you ended up here?

CARA: No that was years, that was when I was 17.

JULIE: Oh, I’m confused then, when did she back you in a corner?

CARA: When I was 17.

JULIE: Ok, and you ended up here when you were 17.

CARA: No, not here at Woodside State um it was Riverside hospital. The psych unit there is at the hospital. And I was the only child there at the unit. I was 17 and the rest of the people around me were adults.

JULIE: Ok, and that was when you were 17 and that was after you killed the parakeet.

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

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JULIE: And the time before that when you were hospitalized when you were 17 you went to the children’s hospital again?

CARA: No.

JULIE: I’m sorry, I’m so confused.

CARA: When I was 17, in ’97, I was suicidal and severely depressed and I went to the children’s hospital- to Southport.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: And I was there maybe two weeks.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm.

CARA: And they put me on Prozac or Paxil and I got out. I was in love with my first love, my boyfriend named Carl and, we were going to get married. And I wanted to stay in Countryside. But my mom had other plans and she wanted to move me to Woodside. We were in the process of moving and we were staying at my grandma’s, for like, maybe two weeks and then while I was there, I uh, killed her parakeet, I got into a fight with her- like a verbal fight and she had me backed into my- backed into the corner of my grandma’s washroom. And she was going to hit me in the face and my grandma stopped her. Then I took a bunch of Tylenol PM’s for the buzz. And I fell asleep. And my grandma kept checking me to make sure I was still breathing. And then, from there, my mom took me to Riverside Hospital.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: Just a regular hospital with a psych floor.

JULIE: And then you were there.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay. And then after that, what was the next big thing that happened?

CARA: Um, we moved to Woodside and I started running away.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: They picked me up and there was no, um, teen detention center, so they put me in Bakers.

JULIE: What’s Bakers?

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CARA: A home for bad kids. Kids that are abused, kids that their parents can’t take care of them. Kids that break the law. And they put me there twice, because I was a runaway. The police picked me up and found me and they put me there twice.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: And then um, my stepdad abused me. He beat me up and then the police took me to a foster-care, foster home and I went from the foster home in Woodside to my grandma’s house in Franklin. And, I ran away from there and I went to Columbus, Ohio to live on the streets. So that’s about it.

JULIE: Ok, and then, um, did you have. Then when was, what was the next big thing that happened in your life?

CARA: Um, when I was 17 I ended up close to Cleveland Ohio. I hitched a ride with a man. And it was snowy out and I had no shoes, no coat. My feet were bleeding because I’d been walking so much. And he dropped me off at this gas station and a restaurant. It was like McDonalds’ and a restaurant, er like McDonald’s and a gas station together. And they weren’t open yet. And there was this like really bad blizzard. And I took the payphone that was on a cord that was out in the lobby and the door was locked. And I like, banged on the door really hard with the pay phone. And they came and answered the door. And I told them, I said, “I need medical attention. Please help me.” And, they unlocked the door and they wouldn’t let me sleep on the, um, on the benches, the like booths where people would eat. So I went in the bathroom and I passed out. And they called the ambulance for me. And the ambulance brought me to Riverside Hospital. And then I was at Riverside Hospital and, my grandma picked me up and I lived with my grandma.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: And then, and then, I had turned 18 a few months before that and I had to sign the cremation papers for my dad. And um, I lived there at my grandma’s for a few months and Recovery Center, they got me my check and they got me an apartment, and they gave me meds and I was with them for a while.

JULIE: How long were you with them for?

CARA: Off and on, from 18 to uh, 31.

JULIE: Okay. And then, did you say when you were 18 you had your biggest relapse?

CARA: Um-

JULIE: Or you had a big relapse, was that the-

CARA: Yeah.

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JULIE: With the bleeding feet and everything?

CARA: Mm-hmmm. Yeah. That was a pretty big one.

JULIE: Yeah. And were you hearing voices or seeing things or anything then?

CARA: I was delusional. I thought I was like, really important, that I was in the bible. That’s all I can think of.

JULIE: And then, when did you have your, so when was the next big thing that happened, I guess?

CARA: Well, I remember, when I was 18 I wanted to marry this other guy that I knew, that I had dated when I was 15 in Countryside. So my grandma drove me over to Countryside and I couldn’t get a hold of him. I didn’t know where he was at. I don’t know what happened to him. So, my old counselor, um, got me into a shelter, a homeless shelter in Concord and I was there probably about a month and I was trying to get a job. And there was like no jobs, it was a really small town. And, you know, I was running out of food because they gave us food from a food pantry. I was running out of food. I didn’t know anybody, and I was going to AA- NA and AA meetings with my roommate that was in the shelter. And uh, nothing was panning out for me. You know, nothing was going right. So my grandma came and picked me up and then she brought me to her house. And then I lived there until I got my first apartment with Recover Center when I was 18 going on 19.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. And so you lived in that apartment for how long?

CARA: Um, probably about three months and then I got my own- it was a bigger house it was like, a two bedroom house, with my boyfriend. His name was Tom. And he worked at an auto- parts store.

JULIE: And then how long did you live with him?

CARA: Probably about a year and a half.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. And then what?

CARA: And then, I broke up with him and, I moved to Woodside. And then I moved from Woodside back. And I got with this other guy named Charlie and that was my son’s dad.

JULIE: Ok, so then you had your son?

CARA: Um, I got pregnant and I was 19 and I told my boyfriend. I said, “You don’t have to marry me, just live with me. Just get an apartment with me.” And I don’t think he believed me that I was really pregnant by him. And all he wanted to do- well he got me started on coke. All he wanted to do, cause he worked under the table, on coke, weed, alcohol, concerts, play station games and CDs. That’s all he wanted to spend his money on that he got paid under the table. His

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parents didn’t even make him pay rent. He was a pretty big loser, pretty big slacker. And then um, I moved to Woodside after I had the baby, cause I got back with Tyler and after I had the baby he cheated on me with my best friend. So I moved back to Woodside and my mom helped me with the baby. And then in 2001, I met my daughter’s dad. His name was Tom and he basically accepted Adam, my son, as his own. And, that was in 2001. So, we have been together ever since then. Off and on- mostly on.

JULIE: Okay. And then when did you have your daughter?

CARA: 2003.

JULIE: Okay. And so in that time were there, so then, I know so last summer was really bad.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: So when did things start to fall apart again. Or when, I mean did you have any other hospitalizations during that time?

CARA: Yeah I sure did, when I was 23, and I was pregnant with my daughter, I was at a group home. And I found out I was pregnant by a blood test. They had to do two. Cause the first one didn’t pick it up and the second one did. And they took me off all my meds. And I had a relapse. I uh, I would stay out all night at the group home, when I was staying there, I stayed out all night. I started smoking cigarettes. The cigarettes didn’t hurt the baby though. It wasn’t any big deal cause I wasn’t on them very long. I hardly ate. I hardly slept. Um, I had the grandiose delusions again. I thought I was something, like important or special. Like I had magic powers and um, they put me in the hospital and then I went from the hospital to this program called Oakland, it wasn’t like the health clinic they have now. It was just this program called Oakland where you do chores, they become your payee. You get three meals a day. And you get your own- or you get a room, sometimes a roommate is there. And I had a roommate. And they took my payeeship and they were giving me meds once a week every week, they’d give me enough for the whole week. And I was on Zyprexa and I was only on like 5 mg and it kept me stable. And um, that was the last time I was, well it was years apart from when I was hospitalized, when I was pregnant, that was when I was hospitalized. And um-

JULIE: How come you had- so when you were in that group home that took you off your meds and everything, how come you weren’t living with Tom?

CARA: We didn’t have the money. He went to live with a friend and I couldn’t live there too, so I went to the group home to live. And um, my mom had my son. And I had called Recovery Center and I asked if they would help me get my baby back. And they said they would. And then which I didn’t need their help after all. But, I was released from the hospital and went to the Oakland program. And then from the Oakland program I got my own apartment. And I was about, eight months pregnant and my mom signed my son over- back to me. Cause she had temporary guardianship of him. And, I wasn’t hospitalized again until um, recently. Until like, last winter. Or the winter of – I guess it would be the – I guess it would be 2011.

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JULIE: Okay. The winter of 2011.

CARA: Mm-hmmm. That’s when I got put in Riverside Hospital and then I’ve been there several times. I don’t even know how many times I’ve been there since then.

JULIE: Ok, um, so while you were on a break from Tom you dated Mike.

CARA: Yeah. Mm-hmmm. I started dating him in the winter of 2010.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. And when did you break up with him?

CARA: Um, last fall.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: It was October, er, no September 2011.

JULIE: And then, before you ended up in here you were feeling suicidal and you were on the bridge.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: What was going on, why did-

CARA: Actually, I have to use the restroom- I’ll be right back.

JULIE: Sure.

CARA: Um since 2011 I’ve had lots of mental break downs and they experimented with different medicines on me and I don’t think anything really worked. And um, I was put in a group home, like three times, and then I left on my own. And then-

JULIE: How come?

CARA: Because I was hearing messages in songs and I wasn’t getting along with Mike. And I was doing drugs and stuff.

JULIE: So those were the messages we’ve already talked about.

CARA: Yeah. And um, I went from the group home to the hospital and I stayed in the hospital, like, probably a month. And then Mike, helped me get signed up through Oakland and I got in with Oakland and they discharged me and they came and got me- the Oakland people. My caseworker came and got me and took me back home to Mike, to Mike’s house. And that’s when he started being abusive to me and stuff.

JULIE: Ok and this was in.

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CARA: That was in, um, probably August.

JULIE: Of 2011?

CARA: Yeah, and I didn’t have anywhere to go. I couldn’t live with my family. And so I stayed with him. And then Sep- in September I got my own apartment. I had it about a month and then in October, I don’t know if she really did this or if I was delusional, but I thought that Mike’s girlfriend kept driving up outside of my house saying things. She called me a snitch and, she was just yelling stuff. So I don’t know if it was her or I was just imagining it. So anyway, in October, um, I walked out of my house and I was real scared. So I went to my mom’s and my mom had to work and so I got a cigarette off her and walked back home to my apartment and I didn’t go to my apartment-

JULIE: What were you scared of?

CARA: I was just scared. And I went in front of the Laundromat and this really cute guy was in a car and he picked me up and um, he let me smoke cigarettes and we went to the park- his name was Jack. And we went to the park and we snorted crystal meth. And we smoked weed. And he let me smoke his cigarettes and then we- he wanted sex from me and I didn’t want to do anything, cause it scared me. The whole situation scared me cause he took me out in the country and he had a car full of tools. And I was afraid that he was going to tie me up and like, torture me to death, murder me. So like, I peed in my pants. And there was pee in my car seat. So he brought me home and he dropped me off at my sister’s. And I went in my sister’s house cause I didn’t have anymore clean clothes, cause I needed to do laundry. And I took a bath and I borrowed a pair of pants from her. And I got my house key, cause I left it in her mailbox. And I got her house key and I acted like I was going home, and I went all the way to the west side and this guy picked me up and, I told him, I go, “My life is horrible. It sucks. Nothing ever goes right for me and I’m jumping off this bridge.” And then, he let me out of the car and he called the police on me! And I was right there in front of the bridge. I was getting ready to do it, and then the police all pulled up. There was like three cop cars and they put me in handcuffs, but they put me in the front seat and they took me to Riverside Hospital and I got checked in and then I was at Riverside a month and then I came here. They did an involuntary commitment.

JULIE: And, why did you want to kill yourself?

CARA: I was depressed. I didn’t have anybody. I wasn’t back with Tom yet. And my daughter, and they were still in another state. And I had no one. I had no cable at home. I had no friends. My mom was the only person that I really hung around with. My sister didn’t have time for me. So, I was pretty depressed.

JULIE: Yeah. That makes sense. Um, so now we’ve covered pretty much everything.

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

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JULIE: I was going to ask how you made sense out of your stepdad being an alcoholic when you were little.

CARA: Um, I didn’t question it, I was just used to it. He was. He just was. I think it was like radical acceptance now that I think of it. I didn’t question it.

JULIE: And, his changes from when he was drunk to when he was sober?

CARA: I remember how I liked it better when he was sober. And I was scared of him when he was drunk.

JULIE: How would you know he was drunk?

CARA: Because he would have beer at home and he would drink it. And then sometimes he would leave and not come back for hours and hours and then he acted different when he was drunk. Like he would yell at the TV. He would yell at me and my brother. He would yell at the dog. He would be abusive to my mom. He would like beat her and like yell at her and stuff and argue with her.

JULIE: Did you see him beating her?

CARA: No.

JULIE: Um, and so you knew he was an alcoholic and so but, did that, I don’t know, I’m trying to figure out how to ask this, um, with that shift back and forth between sober and drunk, was anything about that confusing to you?

CARA: I wondered what he got out of drinking. Because I didn’t understand it then. I wondered why he drank so much.

JULIE: Yeah. Did he seem like two different people?

CARA: Yeah. My mom called him heckle and- or

JULIE: Jekyll and Hyde?

CARA: Yeah Jekyll and Hyde. Yeah, that’s what my mom called him. And I just couldn’t understand why he was so mean. And, evil to us. And then, like the next day he would be real nice.

JULIE: That was really confusing?

CARA: Yeah. I wondered what I did wrong- you know?

JULIE: You would think that you did something wrong?

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CARA: Yeah. I thought I was a bad kid.

JULIE: And that’s why he was so mean?

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay. Have you, do you tend to blame yourself for other things, like if someone’s mad do you think did something wrong?

CARA: Yeah. I think I wasn’t good enough.

JULIE: Can you think of a recent example of that?

CARA: Um, yeah, with my boyfriend, my ex-boyfriend Mike. Like uh, I wondered why he cheated on me. Like what did I do, to like make him not happy with me.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: But then later on, I like thought about it and I was thinking- I didn’t do anything wrong, it was his fault.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. When you were little, um, what would happen if you got angry?

CARA: I pulled out my hair. I would um, break things, like presents that my mom or my stepdad got me. I would tear things up. I poured glue in my mom’s flowers and milk- to kill em. She had houseplants. To get back at her I would do that.

JULIE: What would you, what did you want to get back at her for?

CARA: I guess she would correct me. She was always harder on me than she was on my brother. I always thought she didn’t like me because I looked like my dad.

JULIE: Did she ever say anything about that?

CARA: No, she’d just say stuff as I got older that I was nuts like he was. I was crazy like he was. She’d stay stuff about my eyes.

JULIE: Like what?

CARA: Why are your eyes so big and beady? You’ve got that wild look in your eyes like your dad. Just things like that.

JULIE: When would she say that to you?

CARA: When she would be in a bad mood.

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JULIE: Um, so when you were angry at her you would do things like that. And how did, did you ever express your anger to her or your stepdad or your dad?

CARA: Um, when I expressed it to her, she would slap me in the face. And I knew better than to express it to my stepdad.

JULIE: What would he do?

CARA: He would beat me with the belt.

JULIE: So it wasn’t safe to be angry in your family?

CARA: No.

JULIE: And when your stepdad was angry he would be verbally- he would-

CARA: He would be verbally abusive or like, physically with the belt.

JULIE: And when your mom was angry?

CARA: She would slap me in the mouth or in the face. And um, yell at me. And I would get grounded. It wasn’t a very good home growing up.

JULIE: No.

CARA: Because of all the abuse, verbal and physical.

JULIE: How do you think it’s affected you?

CARA: Um, I think it has made me a better person. Because I’m not abusive towards my children and, I know what it’s like to be hurt so I’m more sensitive to other people.

JULIE: Yeah. Um, I was wondering, um, when you’d mentioned about your dad shaking your brother when you were outside your grandmother’s- how old were you when that happened?

CARA: Probably 10. That was the last time I saw him.

JULIE: Yeah, um, and so how do you make sense out of, or what do you think has been- or caused your difficulties?

CARA: I think it was less my own mental illness- the chemicals in my brains- in my brain, and more of the dysfunctional family- dysfunctional home life. I think that affected me more than the actual illness.

JULIE: Mm-hmmm. And how did that affect you?

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CARA: It made life harder for me.

JULIE: How did it contribute to your difficulties?

CARA: Um, it, I think it made me have low self-esteem. It made me scared of change and to try new things. And I think it hindered my life because I would always pick men that were bad for me because I think I saw that example set when I was younger. And it made me seek out friends, like, bad kind of friends and do drugs. Because that’s how I thought I would fit in.

JULIE: Is by doing drugs.

CARA: Mm-hmmm.

JULIE: okay.

CARA: And I didn’t have much support financially or emotionally from my family.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: That’s about it. That’s all I can think of.

JULIE: And you said it made you afraid of change?

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: What do you mean?

CARA: Like um, when I got older and I was with Recovery Center, I was really scared about getting my first apartment and doing laundry and shopping and cooking. I had a lot of anxiety about it.

JULIE: What were you scared of?

CARA: I’m not sure. I think it was just because I would have to do everything myself and I’d never done any of that stuff before. Like my mom didn’t even teach me and my brother how to cook. She’d make us leave the kitchen when she was cooking cause she didn’t want us in the way.

JULIE: Oh, okay.

CARA: But my dad, or my stepdad I mean, when I got older, he did teach me how to shop. And I – I just learned things over the years by myself.

JULIE: Yeah. But you said that change was scary.

CARA: Yeah.

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JULIE: Can you think of other changes that were scary, and what it is about change that is so scary?

CARA: That I’m not going to be able to take care of myself. That I wasn’t going to be able to live on my own and be responsible. That’s probably what I was afraid of.

JULIE: Did they tell you you wouldn’t be able to make it?

CARA: No, they never really said anything about it. I guess it was my own insecurities.

JULIE: Yeah. You said your mom called you crazy.

CARA: Yeah. She said “You’re crazy like your dad. You’re just like your dad I can see the look in your eyes and it’s just like his.”

JULIE: When was the first time she said that to you?

CARA: I think I was 13. She would always say things about my eyes. But that’s what, I don’t understand it. I don’t know if she meant you can tell something’s wrong with a person by looking at their eyes or what.

JULIE: What would she say about your eyes- anything else?

CARA: They’ve got a wild look in them, just like your dad’s when he would flip out.

JULIE: Oh, okay.

CARA: That’s how she would say it.

JULIE: How did you feel when she would say that to you?

CARA: It hurt my feelings and it made me want to cry. I wanted to get green contact lenses or brown ones, to cover up my eyes- color of my eyes. I thought it was the color for the longest time and I don’t know why.

JULIE: Did your dad have blue eyes?

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: Okay.

CARA: He had eyes just like mine. And, I like, after I became a mother, I was never- I said mean things like that to my kids. I knew I wasn’t going to after I had kids. But yeah, because I experienced the abuse, I learned from it and I knew not- what not to do.

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JULIE: Yeah. Mm-hmmm. Were you afraid you were like your dad?

CARA: Yeah I was when I was younger. And then when I got older I realized, I could be a lot worse.

JULIE: What do you mean?

CARA: Well my dad was a good person. When he was on his meds, he was a good person. He’d tell me things like, don’t eat in front of people, be polite and ask them if they want something to eat or drink. Um, he taught me manners. He taught me hygiene habits, like to wash your hands after you use the bathroom. Um, or before you eat. After I burp, say excuse me. Say please to people. Be respectful to your elders. Like be really nice to old people.

JULIE: So he taught you a lot of things.

CARA: Yeah. He taught me how to clean. That’s about it.

JULIE: But you realized, you could be a lot worse than him.

CARA: I thought he was a good person. He was my hero when I was little.

JULIE: So what do you mean by, you could be a worse person?

CARA: Well, I could be abusive to people and steal and lie, and um, just be an all around bad person. And my dad wasn’t- so I wouldn’t mind being like him. He was kind and he was smart.

JULIE: Do you have any idea why he was bi-polar?

CARA: No, just that my Grandpa, his dad, was bi-polar, but back then it was called manic- depressive. And he was here at State. He had electro-shock therapy, my grandpa did. And when he came home he was like a zombie. So it wasn’t very good. I knew I’d never want to get that.

JULIE: Yeah.

CARA: Yeah.

JULIE: You saw him, you knew him?

CARA: Yeah. He died when he was like 90-something.

JULIE: Wow.

CARA: And I was um, I think I was 24.

JULIE: Okay. Well, that’s it. Thanks!

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Cara’s Response to the Writing Exercise

I typed up what she wrote (without any changes to grammar, punctuation, or breaks in the lines): “The most significant (in a negative way) life experience, happened when I was 10. My mother, and I were sleeping, my brother was staying all-night at a friends. My step-dad came home drunk he was beating my mom, the noise woke me up I snuck out of the house in about 3 ft of snow, at four in the morning, walked half a mile to the police station and told them he was hurting my Mom. The police came to arrest him in the nick of time, he was choking her. She had a broke ankle and my step-dad was arrested. I was at the police-station, my mom came to pick me up This marked a turning point in my life After this incident, I played the role of the hero. I watched over my mom, did house-work and made straight A’s. I took on extra responsibilities a 10-year old has no business having. I became not only my mother’s daughter but her best friend and caretaker as well.”

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