WISCONSIN HISTORICAL SOCIETY
An Oral History Interview with
RON KIND
Interviewer: .Anita Hecht, Life History Services Recording Date: March 27, 2009 Place: La Crosse, Wisconsin. Length: 1.0 hour
Ronald James Kind was raised in La Crosse, Wisconsin, the middle child of Greta and Elroy Kind. .After graduating from high school in 1981, Kind attended Harvard University and studied economics and history.
During his junior year, he served as an intern for Sen. William Proxmire. Kind researched the Iran-Contra affair as well as other issues related to the Reagan administration's support for counterinsurgency movements in Central .America. Kind also wrote daily speeches on the genocide convention and nuclear disarmament and researched Golden Fleece awards.
Following the internship, Kind graduated with honors from Harvard and then earned his M.S. degree in international economics from the London School of Economics in 1986. He earned his J.D. degree from the University of Minnesota Law School in 1990.
In 1995, Kind consulted the retired Sen. Proxmire about his desire to run for Congress in Wisconsin's Third District. Sen. Proxmire encouraged him to do so and made a campaign ad on his behalf. In 1996, Kind won a seat in the U.S. House of Representatives.
.After arriving in Washington, Kind visited the retired Senator weekly at the Library of Congress, when Proxmire gave him much advice on current issues and how succeed in Washington. PROJECT NAME: PROXMIRE ORAL HISTORY PROJECT Verbatim Interview Transcript NARRATOR: RON KIND INTERVIEWER: Anita Hecht INTERVIEW DATE: March 27,2009 INTERVIEW LOCATION: La Crosse, WI INTERVIEW LENGTH: Approximate 1 Hour
KEY: RK Ron Kind BP Bill Proxmire
SUBJECT INDEX
HOUR1
Hour 1/00:00 RK Family History/Educational Background Knowledge of BP
Hour 1/10:10 Internship with BP/Duties Office Debates Genocide Treaty Golden Fleece Awards
Hour 1/19:45 Golden Fleece Awards (cont) BP's Staff/Office Dynamics
Hour 1/30:10 BP's Connection with Constituents Regrets about S&L Crisis BP's Debating Skills Isolation in Senate Importance of Physical Fitness
Hour 1/40:30 BPs Views on Social Issues RK's Post-Internship Life/Congressional Campaign
Hour 1/50:20 Onset of BP's Alzheimer's Post-Senate Relationship with BP Importance of BP on Wisconsin Democratic Party BP's Legacy
Ron Kind Interview Transcript Proxmire Oral History Project HOUR1
Hour 1/00:00 RK Family History/Educational Background, Knowledge of BP
The date is March 27* in the year 2009. My name is Anita Hecht, and I have the great pleasure and honor of interviewing Ron Kind in his office here in La Crosse, Wisconsin, on behalf of the
William Proxmire Oral History Project of the Wisconsin Historical Society. So thankyoufor agreeing to participate, Ron.
Oh, it's my pleasure and honor.
Well, I'd like to begin by asking a bit about you and your background. When and where were you born, first of all?
I was born in La Crosse, Wisconsin, back in 1963, on the north side of town; the son of Elroy
Kind and Greta Kind and one of five siblings.
One of five siblings. And you grew up here in the town of La Crosse?
That's right.
Tell me a little bit about your family history. I know you know quite a bit. Maybe you can sketch a bit of it out.
Ron Kind Interview Transcript 3 Proxmire Oral History Project Well, you know, on my mom's side, we're fifth generation western Wisconsin. We date our
ancestors back to the Mayflower, coming over and getting into the Cape Cod/Boston area. And then eventually they moved to western Wisconsin. They were farmers, down in Crawford
County outside of Prairie du Chien. And eventually my grandfather, my mom's father, moved up to La Crosse, where he went into auto repair business. And that's how Dad found Mom, when he
was working with the La Crosse telephone company. But his family emanates from eastern
Wisconsin, the New Holstein/Kiel area. A few of his brothers were dairy farmers; a couple still
are. So my summers as a kid were spent on the family dairy farms in eastern Wisconsin helping
out with the chores. And so my dad's family came over from Germany shortly before the First
World War, and that's when they settled.
Where did your mom's family come from originally?
From Great Britain.
From Great Britain, okay. So your parents worked here in town?
Yep.
Tell me a little bit about their education, their political leanings.
Ron Kind Interview Transcript 4 Proxmire Oral History Project Well, both graduated from high school, didn't go onto college. Dad worked as a telephone
repairman for the La Crosse Telephone Company for thirty-six years. He was a steward of the
IBEW [International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers] Union there. And Mom worked at the
La Crosse School District in the personnel office until us kids started arriving. Then she was
home for awhile with the kids, but eventually went back to the school district and with the
personnel office. Politically, Ma definitely leans towards the Democratic side and Dad definitely
leans to the Republican side. I keep kidding him that he's even further right than Rush Limbaugh
on most issues. So those make for some very interesting conversations. We definitely had a
divided political party in the family growing up.
And where did you fall as a young man?
You know, I had an open mind and I was always very inquisitive, but my political formulation
occurred in high school when I became obsessed with all the books being written about
Watergate. It was shortly after the Watergate period, late '70s, when I was in high school. And
for some reason, I became fascinated with it. But the more I read about Watergate and the abuse
of power at the highest offices of our land, the more angry I became. And I think that kind of
steered me towards the Democratic field. But, you know, I was always apolitical as a kid
growing up. And as a middle child in the family, I was the one trying to broker compromises and
find solutions to things.
That's interesting.
Ron Kind Interview Transcript 5 Proxmire Oral History Project Instead of getting drawn into the polarized disputes sometimes.
Tell me a little bit about your education.
Well, public schools in La Crosse, elementary through high school, a graduate of Logan High
School in '81. And then I obtained an academic scholarship to attend Harvard University, where
I went for four years; played quarterback for the football team for a few of those years. But
without the academic scholarship and work study program, there's no way the family could have
afforded it.
Did you have your eye on Harvard already, or how did that come about?
Well, I was looking, in high school, starting to think about academic opportunities following
graduation. My heart was really set on the academies and trying to obtain an appointment to one
of the academies. And my first preference was the Air Force Academy; went through the whole
process. In fact, Prox gave me a nomination to the Academy. But then during my health care
screening, they found out I was red/green colorblind, so I wouldn't be able to fly their jets, and that was a big disappointment. But at the time, too, there were a lot of schools looking at me
athletically because of football. And I was offered a few scholarships in the Big Ten and some
other schools, but Harvard was able to come through with that academic scholarship. They didn't
give athletic scholarships in the Ivy League; still don't. And the numbers were able to work well; that with student loans, work study program. And so I went to Harvard. I still think I hold the
undergraduate career at Harvard for the most toilets cleaned in a four year career. And it was
Ron Kind interview Transcript 6 Proxmire Oral History Project because it was the best paying job. I mean, cleaning student dorm rooms. And the reason it was the best paying is because it was probably the most disgusting job, too. So that's what I did all
four years when I was going to school there.
On a work study program?
On a work study program. But I loved the atmosphere and the challenge that Harvard brought -
small town, Midwestern kid going out east and being exposed to a whole, new world.
You said that you got a nomination from Proxmire. You had heard of him, obviously, by then?
I had, yeah.
Tell me what you knew of him before you had any contact with him?
My first conscious memory of Bill Proxmire was going to a Milwaukee Brewers baseball game,
County Stadium. And that was the extent of our family vacation every year. During summer
break, Dad would take us out east and visit with the family and the farms. And then our big day trip was going down to Milwaukee to go to the Milwaukee Zoo and then catch a Brewers
baseball game. And walking into the stadium, there was Bill Proxmire, as he was known to do,
out front shaking hands with everyone. "Hi. I'm Bill Proxmire, your United States Senator."
And that was the first time as a little kid that I got to meet Senator Proxmire, shake his hand, and
Ron Kind Interview Transcript 7 Proxmire Oral History Project ask Mom and Dad, "Who's this guy and what's he all about?" (laughter) But I was fascinated
with that encounter.
Do you know what they thought of him?
Both of them had a high degree of respect and admiration, even Dad, coming even from a
Republican background. And it was because of the service he provided; the honesty in which he
carried out his duties. The Golden Fleece Awards certainly didn't hurt him in the eyes of my dad,
being fiscally responsible and a guardian of taxpayer dollars. And I think that was fairly uniform
in my family and throughout the State, based on the encounters that I've had, being in office and
when people find out that I had that history with Bill Proxmire.
He kind of crossed the party lines for a lot of people in Wisconsin.
He really did, and that's one of the reasons I admired him. He was a maverick in every sense of the word. He was a trailblazer and allowed people to think outside the box, and not get caught
with just the party labels, but tried to do an honest job and make decisions -what he felt in his
heart was in the best interest of his State that he represented and this country that he loved. And
he'd tell it like it is, and just let the chips fall where they may. And I think a lot of people gave
him a lot of credit for doing it. He ruffled a lot of feathers at the same time, but most mavericks
do. But I think people really admired his stance on a whole host of issues. And the fact that he
was so available to the people back home. I mean, he did that on purpose. Every break he had,
Ron Kind interview Transcript 8 Proxmire Oral History Project every weekend, was spent traveling the State, shaking hands, meeting his "bosses," as he liked to
call them.
Well, we '11 talk a little bit more specifically about some of those issues, but let's pick up the
timeline a bit. You went to Harvard on a scholarship.
Yep.
You graduated —
Graduated in 1985.
And what did you study while you were there?
I studied Economics, History with a lot of courses in Political Science. I had a Econ/History
double major with Poli Sci [Political Science], as a lot of the selective, elective courses as well.
Did you have your eye, yet, on public service?
No way. And my first real encounter of public service up front was the summer of my junior
year when I was able to secure that internship with Senator Proxmire in Washington from May
until - shoot; I think I was there until early September. I wasn't able to play football that year
because of a career ending injury, so my football playing days were over for my senior year. But
Ron Kind Interview Transcript 9 Proxmire Oral History Project that gave me an extended period of time in Washington working with Senator Proxmire that
summer.
How did it come about, your application and interest in the internship?
Well, during my studies at Harvard and encountering a lot of the officials coming up from
Washington for lectures and forums and things of that nature, I became more curious and
interested in what was happening with our political system. And I thought it would be a good
opportunity if I could secure an internship with one of our representatives from Wisconsin for the summer, given my course studies as well. And I was very fortunate, having interviewed with
Senator Proxmire's office, to be given that opportunity with him. And so I seized upon it, and
loved every minute of it.
Did they take several interns every summer? How did it work, the program?
They did. In fact, I think we had about five that summer. They'd start and go according to their
own schedule. And so I was one of a few that were there during the summer. And we divvied up
intern jobs and responsibilities in the office.
Hour 1/10:10 Internship with BP/Duties, Office Debates, Genocide Treaty, Golden Fleece Awards
Do you remember your first impressions when you interviewed with him, or anything about his
demeanor, his style, when you walked in there?
Ron Kind Interview Transcript 10 Proxmire Oral History Project Well, he was already a towering figure in my eyes, you know, because of his reputation back
home and what I knew about him and the work he was doing in Washington. But he had this way
of making everyone feel welcome and very relaxed with him. And curious; he was always
curious, and he always liked to be challenged on his thinking on various issues. And I think he
really appreciated, not only from his staff, but the interns, to take him on from time to time and
challenge his opinions on the issues of the day. In fact, he had one thing that was really neat that
I've been trying to duplicate as a Congressional Rep [Representative] now with my own interns,
is to give the interns an opportunity to come in and debate him on any issue that they want to, but
without telling them beforehand what that issue would be. And he'd give you, like, a half an hour to go there and challenge him and debate him. And, of course, we had the advantage of knowing
where he was on the issue and then researching it before. But he loved to do that and he'd always
set aside time during the summer to give us a chance -just one-on-one, no one else in the office
- for us to have this debate.
What did you debate him on, any memories?
It was our policy towards El Salvador at the time. And, of course, this was at the height of the
Contra War and the arms sales to Iran to finance the Contras down in Central America. And
Senator Proxmire was uniformly opposed to the Reagan administration's foreign policy down there. He felt it was misguided. And I was trying to get him to see that Jose Napoleon Duarte,
who was the leader in El Salvador, really did deserve our support because he was trying to bring
Ron Kind Interview Transcript 11 Proxmire Oral History Project Democratic reforms and open government there. So he can't view all the countries in the same
prism and just uniformly oppose what was going on in there.
Do you think you influenced his views?
He definitely said he was going to be taking a closer look and scrutinizing these countries on a
country by country basis. And I know he made a point of following up with a couple of the
Senators, too, who were on the Foreign Relations Committee to get their perspective on some of these issues.
I'm curious whether when you interviewed for the internship if he asked you much about your politics.
I don't recall it coming up, to tell you the truth. It was interviewing students and letting us know
what the job description was, and our interest in being in Washington for a summer. And I don't think even if he knew it would particularly bother him because I think he felt pretty comfortable
in virtually all the political circles of the day.
And what did the internship entail, then?
A lot of research, some constituent writing, responding to constituent requests, a lot of speech
writing for him, because he was always delivering on the floor of the US Senate two speeches
every day: one was the need for the US Senate to ratify the Anti-Genocide Treaty, and he was
Ron Kind Interview Transcript 12 Proxmire Oral History Project the moral conscience in the Senate, to always remind his colleagues that the work was not
finished after the Second World War, and it was a major blemish on American foreign policy.
Here we were as the initiator of the Treaty after the genocide of the Second World War and we
hadn't even ratified it yet. So he took it upon himself for, I think, eighteen years - every day they
were in session - to deliver a speech of the need for us to ratify the Anti-Genocide Treaty. And
us interns would write a lot of those speeches for him that he would take and then revise himself.
And the other one was the need for eventually getting to a point of nuclear disarmament, because
he thought the weapons were horrific and that it was only a matter of time before they would be
deployed. And he thought it was important for our foreign policy to be encouraging other nations to start dismantling these nuclear arsenals. So those were the two speeches, and we'd write a lot
of those speeches for him. They weren't long speeches - you know, two, three minutes each or
so. But he developed quite a track record in doing it.
And who was against you in those battles?
You know, that was the interesting thing. Is you'd think on the outside looking in, "Well, who
could be opposed to the Anti-Genocide Treaty? This doesn't make sense." And one of the fun
assignments that I had was Prox had me go and have some meetings in Senator Jesse Helms'
office about the Anti-Genocide Treaty. Senator Helms was Chair of Foreign Relations and he
was the main obstacle to having it brought up because he'd always threaten to filibuster. And his
main contention was we'd be forfeiting our own sovereignty and protection of our own US
forces, that some country could bring our troops up on genocide charges and try them in their
own sovereign courts and he was worried that that might happen. But Prox was convinced that
Ron Kind Interview Transcript 13 Proxmire Oral History Project the way he'd written the legislation, there were enough safeguards in it that we wouldn't, in fact,
be forfeiting any of our sovereignty or control of our own troops in this situation. But that was a
major stumbling block. And, of course, the way the Senate is conducted even today, if a Senator threatens to filibuster a measure if it's not a real important, pressing item, generally the
leadership accedes to that threat and moves onto the next item of business. And that's why it was
so frustrating for Senator Proxmire to at least get an honest debate and vote on this treaty at some
point. So he didn't let go. And to his credit, he ultimately prevailed.
I think it passed in '86?
Yeah. It was shortly before he retired. And I think part of that was when he announced his
retirement, leadership wanted to bend over backwards and finally get this taken care of after all those years that he was the conscience reminding the Senate of this unfinished business.
Do you think the ratification of it has made a difference?
I think it's an important moral statement to the world and the conduct of world affairs. Has it
been strictly enforced? No. I think there's certainly areas and blemishes that we have to share
and certain genocidal practices that are still going on today. But in order to make the point, you
gotta have the legal authority and the standing to make the point, too. And even though we can't
deploy our forces everywhere in every type of situation, I think it helps our moral standing to be
able to raise the issue.
Ron Kind Interview Transcript 14 Proxmire Oral History Project What about the nuclear disarmament issue. Did he fight some battles while you were there?
[pause in interview]
Senator Proxmire really was at the forefront of thinking through the ramifications of our nuclear
strategy at the time. And, of course, this was at the height of the Cold War and the Soviet Union
had a nuclear arsenal even larger than our own. But he became enamored with Doctor Carl
Sagan's nuclear freeze theory, that if nuclear weapons were ultimately used, it would result in the freezing of our global climate because of the dust and the soot that would be discharged into the atmosphere, providing a blanket and blocking the sun and creating a second ice age that
would wipe out human civilization. So I remember that summer actually helping his Committee
set up hearings with Doctor Sagan and some of the other nuclear scientists to testify about the
nuclear freeze that would engulf the planet if the weapons were ever used. So the initial horror of just having these things detonate wasn't what would ultimate consume the human race. It was the
after effects and the impact it would have on the climate. And Prox was the one raising this issue,
getting some attention not only nationally, but globally, about this, and bringing it to everyone's
attention.
He was pretty good at getting press, wasn 't he?
He was. He was very clever, but it was because of issues that, I think were, in a lot of respects,
common-sensical. If the average person says, "Yeah, why isn't this getting done?" "Why aren't there more fiscal watchdogs?" "Why aren't we more concerned about nuclear war in our time?"
Ron Kind interview Transcript 15 Proxmire Oral History Project And he had a very talented and professional staff that he surrounded himself with, too, that
helped him in those endeavors.
So you said part of your work was doing the research and then some constituent relations.
Anything else that stands out to you?
Yeah. I had fun investigating some of his Golden Fleece Awards. And that was fun. He'd always throw a few of those to us interns; have us get on the phone and make phone calls and ask
questions about a variety of programs. And they were fun, but they were also a little intimidating
because - I don't think I ever had the phone hang up on me quicker than when I identified
myself as, "Hi. I'm Ron Kind. I work for Senator Bill Proxmire. I have a few questions to ask
you about this project." A lot of times it was just "click" and a dial tone.
Really)
People knew what it was about and they hung up the phone because they didn't want to
cooperate. And so that was fascinating. But some did. And we'd research it and get information
back to the staff as to our recommendation of whether this was worthy to move forward on and
possibly label as a Golden Fleece recipient. But I know the staff and Senator Proxmire was very,
very careful to vet these carefully so that they wouldn't unnecessarily embarrass some person or
agency that really didn't deserve it. So they did a lot vetting, a lot of background checks, before they did their monthly Golden Fleece Award.
Ron Kind Interview Transcript 16 Proxmire Oral History Project Any particular research you remember doing)
Hour 1/19:45 Golden Fleece Awards (cont), BP's Staff/Office Dynamics
I remember one that Prox that ultimately gave a Golden Fleece to, and that was Housing and
Urban Development, three hundred and fifty thousand dollar research grant on the effects tequila
has on goldfish. And Prox liked that so much because when he was in front of student groups, then, he'd tell them about this project. And invariably some student would raise their hand and
say, "You know, we would have done that for free. Could have saved you three hundred and
fifty-thousand dollars!" (laughter) But that was one of the fun ones. Another one was the
Department of Defense had this habit when they sent out bidding contracts for weapons systems, they were sent in huge packages of material which cost a lot of money to mail out in bulk mail,
and fairly sensitive defense issues involved in it, too. So Prox thought, for two reasons: first the
expense of mailing all this out; but secondly, the fact that there were some sensitive State secrets that could be involved, too, that it really wasn't the wisest way to be using taxpayer funds out of the Pentagon.
So when you did research, you researched through budget reports?
Yeah; GAO [Government Accountability Office] reports and IG, Inspector General, reports.
Those were the ones that they would try to comb. And this was at the higher staff level first, to try to identify projects that didn't make a whole lot of sense that might be Golden Fleece
Ron Kind Interview Transcript 17 Proxmire Oral History Project recipients. And so they'd do the initial screening and then they'd hand off some of these projects to us interns.
7 see. I see. Do you think they were effective in curbing spending?
I think no one wanted to be a recipient of a Golden Fleece Award, so everyone kind of had that
in the back of their mind. But it also was an issue whose time had not quite arrived yet in
Washington, and that's being at the forefront of fiscal responsibility. And Prox, to his credit,
really blazed the trail when it wasn't politically in play yet. But he was always very concerned
about the explosion of deficits. And the thing that drove him most crazy with the Reagan
administration was their careless management of the budget and the unprecedented accumulation
of deficits year after year after year. And he was absolutely convinced that this was
unsustainable; it'd be a large, economic price that average Americans would pay for the fiscal
irresponsibility. So it not only got good headlines, but he believed in it. He believed that
symbolically it was important to draw attention. And, of course, he wrote books about it as well.
And it's a struggle we still have today.
Was there any downside, in your view, to the Golden Fleece Awards?
Well, you know, some of this was subjective. One person's Golden Fleece is one person's very
important science research, and may lead to some very beneficial findings, whether it's in
science or health care or what have you. And sometimes it's not always apparent once the grant
is given out where the researchers are going to go with it. So I think, you know, he was subject to
Ron Kind Interview Transcript 18 Proxmire Oral History Project some criticism along those lines. But I think the larger point was a necessary one, and he was the
one making it - that we are ultimately stewards of the taxpayer dollar and it was our
responsibility to make sure that it was being spent as wisely as possible.
Nobody continued on with the Golden Fleeces after he retired. Do you wonder why sometimes?
Well it was his moniker. It was his ownership. And in a way it would, I think, be doing him a
disservice by claiming to inherit that from the work that he put [in]. But it also required a tremendous amount of work because of how seriously he took it in trying not to give a bad
Golden Fleece or a wrong Golden Fleece out. And it did consume a lot of staff time, because the
staff had to work hard at it. And I know they viewed it very seriously. Even though the press
releases were done in a humorous fashion, I know they viewed it very, very seriously. That takes
a lot of time, and you've got to devote a lot of staff and personal time in order to do it the way it
should be done, and that's very carefully.
So maybe someday somebody will be a watchdog in that way again?
You know, Taxpayers for Common Sense kind of took it upon themselves - outside watchdog
group - and they were keeping it going and doing a Fleece Award from time to time. And then I think it was either ABC or NBC was doing a weekly Fleece Award, too. And this was really
picking up on Senator Proxmire's legacy. You know, people felt it was important and they
understood that it did attract a lot of attention. And that's why these outside groups and the major
media kept it going for awhile, too.
Ron Kind Interview Transcript 19 Proxmire Oral History Project Tell me a little bit about who else was in the office and how the office worked.
Well, you know, the one who ultimately needs to write a book about Washington is Arlene
Branca. I mean, she is one of the brightest people that I know, and probably the most astute
observer of how business gets done in Washington. She was with Senator Proxmire throughout
most of his career. She's currently with Senator Kohl and she was really the gatekeeper to the
Senator and kept his life organized, and [was] invaluable in the office. Ron Tammen was the
Chief of Staff. And they had really a crack staff when I was there interning, from Ruth
[Fleischer] to Larry Patton, Mort Schwartz - all of them were very, very impressive individuals.
And I think that really helped Senator Proxmire do what he was able to do all those years in
Washington.
So he was good at finding intelligent, competent people to surround himself with.
And it was important that he found those competent and highly skilled people because his office
size wasn't as large as most Senate offices, because again, he being fiscally responsible, he
wanted to return money back to the Treasury every year for deficit reduction. And therefore, he
kept a smaller size than what a normal Senate office would look like, which meant more work, then, for the staff because they had to cover more issues areas and more things. But they ran a
very tight ship, to their credit.
And were you expected to be therefrom early morning to late at night?
Ron Kind Interview Transcript 20 Proxmire Oral History Project Yeah. I think that was the general work ethic that everyone had; get in early, work long hours.
And it was fun. They cut us some slack, too, that if there was a hearing going on or something
interesting on the Senate floor that we could let someone know and go and sit in on it and watch
so we weren't tide to the desk. And they made sure they gave us enough interesting assignments to diversify our workload so we didn't get too bored.
Were you using computers at that point?
No, we really weren't. Not a lot. There was some in the offices, but it wasn't the way it is today
where everyone is connected 24/7.
7 think it's hard to imagine, I think, of the student of the future who researches how government
has changed.
Well, you know, my staff gets upset with me that I'm not attached to the Blackberry every
minute of the day, because I just feel they're powerful devices for communication and increasing
efficiency, but you also need to disconnect every once in awhile and have a time to think. And
you don't always get that if you're just addicted to that Blackberry. And I see too many of my
colleagues today, when they're even in hearings or in meetings. You know, their nose is buried
in that Blackberry. And they're responding to messages or looking at the latest news bulletin on
line. And I think there may be attention deficit disorder affecting the United States Congress today.
Ron Kind Interview Transcript 21 Proxmire Oral History Project That's interesting. Other ways that you can describe the office in those days, in 1984, that's very
different than how politics runs today or government runs today?
Well, I would say that his office was very close and they had a good chemistry to it. And they
also had a good feel for how Senator Proxmire did things. But also they knew how important it
was to stay in touch with constituents, you know, the people back home. The Senator did that
personally by meeting with people in Washington and traveling the State religiously, every
chance he got. But the staff I noticed, too, made a very special effort that if people were stopping
in, to treat them with courtesy and respect and to hear them out. And for most people, that's what they hope will happen.
Is that different today, you think?
Sometimes, you know, I think. I try to model my office of what I saw in Senator Proxmire. What
better role model? Not only him, but the staff that he put together. But I noticed, too, that the
practice varies from office to office out there. And some offices just aren't as responsive to their
constituents.
What about lobbyists? Were there lobbyists coming in and out of the office?
You know, I didn't notice too many. I never sat down with any lobbyist as an intern. But I didn't
notice an entourage coming through all the time. And I don't think Senator Proxmire really
Ron Kind Interview Transcript 22 Proxmire Oral History Project worked in that fashion, that he was really dependent on getting information from lobbyists. He
was intellectually curious, had an open mind on most issues; did a lot of reading, himself, did a
lot of hearings on the Committees that he was in charge of. But I didn't see him spending a
whole lot of time sitting down with lobbyists.
Well also, at that time, he really didn't spend money on campaigning or accept contributions in
my understanding.
That's right. So he didn't have the fundraising events that many members have today where
lobbyists could show up at. And it was really remarkable how he was able to get the support of the people in Wisconsin where he didn't have to raise a lot of money. He didn't have to do a
major media campaign, which invariably is what drives money in politics today, is the cost of
media and getting your message out.
Hour 1/30:10 BP's Connection with Constituents, Regrets about S&L Crisis, BP's Debating Skills, Isolation in Senate, Importance of Physical Fitness
So that's a change since the time he was in office?
It is. I don't know if anyone could pull that off today, given the slash and burn politics and the
role that outside interest groups play and their ability to move millions of dollars around. And if they decide to target someone, they can just fill up the airways with negative ads. Not that that
wasn't going on, it just wasn't to the extent it is today. But Senator Proxmire felt that it wasn't
necessary for him to have to raise a large amount of money. But he also confided in me, too, that
Ron Kind Interview Transcript 23 Proxmire Oral History Project there were tradeoffs involved. Because of his willingness to be on the road constantly when he
was back home, it gave him less time to be with the family. And after I was recently elected, I
went to Washington and one of the first people I wanted to sit down with was Senator Proxmire just to get his thoughts and do's and don'ts. And I asked him if he did have any regrets after all those years serving the people in Wisconsin. And he said his one big regret that he had was he
didn't get a chance to see his kids grow up the way he wanted to because he was always on the
road - parades, shaking hands - and then he'd be heading back to Washington right away. And that was the tradeoff. The reason he didn't have to raise a lot of money is because he did the
latter. And he was all over the State shaking hands. And I think everyone felt they had a personal
connection with Bill Proxmire because he did that. But I think it's a constant struggle that all of
us in public service have every day, is how to maintain that balance with your family and then
with your official duties.
You just mentioned his family. Did you have much contact with his personal world? Did he talk
much about his personal life?
Well, with Ellen, certainly. She was around, and I still enjoy a close relationship with her today.
We call her from time to time to find out what she's doing and get her thoughts on issues. The
kids, less so. I didn't have too much interaction with them, but certainly with Ellen.
Any stories that you know of from his personal world that affected who he was as a politician?
Ron Kind Interview Transcript 24 Proxmire Oral History Project Well, you know, even today, I encounter people who knew Prox well when he was working the
State. In fact, there's a gentleman that had this clothing store in Viroqua, Steve Felix, and he
always got the biggest kick with Senator Proxmire coming through Viroqua. And he'd always
stop in to see how Steve is doing and the family. And Prox always, you know, would be wearing these older suits with tethered collars and sleeves, and it would drive Steve nuts. And he'd
always yell at Senator Proxmire. He would say, "Prox, you are a United States Senator. You
should act like one and at least look like one." And so he finally broke down and bought a suit
from Steve one day. And wouldn't you know it, I think it was at a ballgame or whatever that
Steve was going to. He saw Prox out front shaking hands. Prox saw him coming - he had his
remarkable recall of names, too - and saw Steve coming. And he yelled, "Steve! Steve! Hey
look!" and he was wearing the suit that he had purchased from Steve. And Steve got the biggest
kick out of that. But Prox wanted to be a man of the person. And so he didn't want to be wearing
fancy ties and fancy suits. And the other piece of advice that he gave me was fly coach; don't take upgrades, even with all the miles that you accumulate; always sit in the back of the plane
where the real people sit.
That's interesting, also given the fact that he was raised in quite a privileged—you know, Lake
Forest, Illinois.
Yeah, you're right. You know, Yale, Harvard educated. So his socioeconomic background as a
kid growing up - and maybe he was a little sensitive to that. But I think he knew the State well.
And this is really a blue collar, hard working State with small businesses, family farmers, salt of the earth type of people. And that's who he identified with and he wanted to make sure they
Ron Kind interview Transcript 25 Proxmire Oral History Project identified with him, that they had a champion of their concerns and a representative of their
voices in Washington.
Was he on any Committees when you were there?
The Banking Committee was obviously -1 was there when they were in the majority for a brief
period of time so he was actually Chair of Banking. And so he was having a lot of hearings in the
Banking Committee. And I think if you were to have asked him before he passed away if there
was any one professional regret that he had, it was that he didn't identify or see the S & L crisis
happening with enough warning to do something about it. And, of course, that led to a lot of taxpayer intervention - sounds kind of similar today that we're seeing the massive bailout - with the S & L industry that collapsed. And he kind of viewed that as a personal failure, that as Chair
of the Banking Committee, that he didn't see that see that coming and didn't take corrective
action in order to head it off before it occurred.
Do you think as Chairman of the Banking Committee he could have, had he seen it? In that position of power would it have —
You know, obviously, he could have drawn attention to it with hearings. Even with the Reagan
administration, tried working with the regulatory agencies in charge of oversight to make sure that they were doing their job and if they weren't, hold them more accountable. "Why aren't you
doing this?" "Why aren't you checking on the capitalization of these S & L's to a much greater
Ron Kind Interview Transcript 26 Proxmire Oral History Project extent?" But I know he talked about that a few times with me when we had our conversations at the Library of Congress after he had retired.
Tell me a little bit more about his strengths. Did you see him as a good public speaker? Was he good with his colleagues?
He was a wonderful public speaker. Of course, he had this deep, baritone voice that just hit you
in the gut. And he was great to listen to on the Senate floor, too, because he filled the Chamber
with his voice. And he also told me that, when I was interning with him, I asked him, "How do
you get so sharp on the issues with your response?" And he said he rehearses a lot of the
anticipated questions in the mirror when he's shaving in the morning. He tries to get it down to,
like, a thirty second response about the issues of the day and anticipating what questions the
media would be asking him. And he'd think through that and try to get a response down to about thirty seconds, realizing that that was the sound byte way of things, even back then. And so he
worked hard in trying to do that. But I always viewed him as one of the intellectual giants in the
Senate when he was curious about a lot of things, not afraid to be challenged on his own
viewpoints, but always like a sponge trying to absorb more and more information so he could
make the right decision at the end of the day. But because of his willingness to speak out, to
speak truth to power, I think that did kind of set him off from his colleagues a little bit. I think there was great admiration and respect for Bill Proxmire amongst his colleagues, but he wasn't
one of the "boys" in the Chamber; didn't really run in those social circles and really didn't feel a
need to.
Ron Kind interview Transcript 27 Proxmire Oral History Project So if one could talk about his weaknesses, it would maybe be about not having the personal
relationships that get politics done, in that way?
Well, I think that's one way of looking at it, because a lot of what gets done in Washington is
based on relationship and trust building and working effectively with your colleagues, especially
across the aisle. That takes a lot of time; takes a lot of effort. And people are human and they
want a personal connection, too. And you've got to invest some time into doing it. And I think he
had his own way of doing things and approaching issues to draw attention to it. And it wasn't
from the inside out. It was more from the outside in.
7 think it's interesting that you mention the Blackberry and all the ways that people are multi
tasking and distracted and operating very quickly. Did he take time for himself? Like his daily
routine, were you privy to how much time he spent reading or resting or thinking?
Well, you know, he was a health care fanatic. And, again, was a great role model in that respect;
physical activity, running, proper diet. One of the fun duties that I had from time to time
interning with him was getting his lunch down in the Senate cafeteria. And all it was was a plate
of fresh fruit. And we'd bring it up to his office and that's what he would eat. He was also a big
believer in the Churchillian nap, which makes a lot of sense. He talked to most doctors and they
say it's one of the best thing you can do is get some quiet time, close your eyes for twenty, twenty-five minutes or so during the day and you feel refreshed. And he was very disciplined in that regard, too. I think it's, to a large extent, where his stamina came from; just unlimited energy that he'd always have. But he knew how to pace himself at the same time.
Ron Kind Interview Transcript 28 Proxmire Oral History Project So you had the sports in common?
Yeah, that's right.
Did you have other interests that you talked about outside of politics?
Well, he was a big sports fan in the State of Wisconsin, so I was interested in talking about how the teams, respective teams, were doing. He was curious about the Harvard football program and
what I was doing with that. And I think he was also trying to encourage others around him to try to stay physically active and to - all things in moderation. I think it's a lesson that many of us
learned from him and that we tried practicing even today. Something that we need more of in this
country.
Hour 1/40:30 BP's Views on Social Issues, RK's Post-Internship Life/Congressional Campaign
Do you still do daily exercises?
I do, religiously. And I try to find time. Usually I wake up early in the morning in Washington
and run the mall. Say, "Hi" to the Presidents, their monuments. And it's a great way to start the
day. Plus it gives you a time disconnected, time to think before the rapid pace overwhelms you
during the day. And I try to find time to exercise back home as well.
Ron Kind Interview Transcript 29 Proxmire Oral History Project Interesting. So he might have had a direct influence on you that way.
Yeah, I think so. You know, given how busy the United States Senator's life is, to know that he
always made it a point of finding time to make exercise a part of his daily routine. And if he can
do it, no excuse for anyone else.
7 wanted to get back a little bit to his political beliefs and philosophies. We talked about fiscal
responsibility and nuclear disarmament and the Genocide Treaty. Are there other major values
or beliefs or positions he took that stand out to you?
You know, he was always concerned about the impact on the common person, the working
family, and how this was going to impact them. And I think it was because he saw the powers that be out in Washington and their influence on things and how decisions get made. And he felt that it was kind of his personal responsibility to make sure that the voice of working families in
Wisconsin was well represented, that they're taken into account, too. That's one of the reasons
why the debt scared him to death, because he knew that when you run large deficits, it's those
most in need of help who suffer the most, because it's usually their programs that get cut the first
when it comes to belt tightening time. And he just thought it would be catastrophic for the nation to continue down that path of more and more deficit spending and delaying that inevitable day.
It's interesting that he was both conservative in his views on spending but quite liberal, it seems,
on his support of social programs.
Ron Kind interview Transcript 30 Proxmire Oral History Project Right. I think so. And I think that's the dichotomy that he brought to the job. He was viewed as
being very fiscally responsible. But what maybe a lot of people didn't see him doing was making
sure that the average working Americans were getting a fair shake in all this, too, at the end of the day.
What about his views on certain social issues that seem so salient today, in today's political
world — abortion, gun control, prayer in schools. Did you know what his views were?
Well he was pro-life and that obviously was outside the norm within the Democratic Party. But I think the issue was different then as it is today. It's much more polarized; much more of a
lightening rod than even when it was back then throughout the '60s. Of course, Roe [Roe vs.
Wade] didn't happen until the early '70s and that's what gave it political potency ultimately. But
he also wasn't out there pontificating on these issues, too, understanding that there's a wide
viewpoint on a lot of these issues. He was also adamantly opposed to capital punishment. So he
was consistent with a lot of these viewpoints.
Do you think they came from him taking the temperature of his constituents, or more from just
his own personal beliefs?
I think they really did emanate from his own background and personal beliefs, religious
conviction. And those are tough calls. And you would hope ultimately that whatever
representative is doing on those issues, that it's motivated by a sense of deep conviction rather than the political winds of the day.
Ron Kind Interview Transcript 31 Proxmire Oral History Project Did you disagree with him on any major things? I know you mentioned Central America, some of
his —
Oh, there wasn't a lot. I had great - and still do - greatly admire the work that he did. And that's
why I'm proud to call myself a "Bill Proxmire Democrat." You know, one who's kind of
keeping an eye on the budget and the use of taxpayer funds.
It's a very salient issue just this week.
Well, it is.
Obama 's budget is working its way.
We're in a tough spot right now with the economic slowdown and the projected budget deficits
for awhile. But because of it, I've been pushing for more earmark reform, so called "pork barrel
projects." I think we have a broken system, something that even Bill Proxmire recognized during
his days in the Senate, and we need to clean it up. It's a bipartisan problem. It's going to require
a bipartisan solution. And I hear the voice of Prox echoing in the background. He would agree that these pork projects have gotten completely out of control. I'm sure he'd be very disturbed
with the budget numbers that we're looking at right now in the immediate future and what it's
going to take to turn that around. He probably would have been pleased in the late '90s, seeing the fiscal outlook starting to turn around. We were running some budget surpluses, starting to
Ron Kind Interview Transcript 32 Proxmire Oral History Project pay down the national debt. I think he would have been happy, but then disgusted that the next
administration would have squandered that away with fiscal mismanagement again.
And a lot of deregulation again.
And a lot of deregulation, right.
So he was for more regulation, you think, on financial —
I think if there was one lesson from and S & L crisis that he regretted was that there wasn't
enough oversight to catch it ahead of hand before the damage was done. And so I think he would
have been very protective of making sure there was enough transparency and accountability on
our financial system today to avert what we're going through.
One other question about him is that I'm curious if you know who his mentors were, if he ever
talked about the people who influenced him? Because it seems like he had such a strong sense of
his own views.
That's a great question. You know, I really don't know who he would have looked up to, who his
quote, unquote "role models" might have been. It'd be interesting to hear what others say about that.
Ron Kind Interview Transcript 33 Proxmire Oral History Project So your internship ends in September of '84. Tell me a little bit about how your path evolved
after that.
Well, we stayed in touch; obviously stayed in touch not only with the Senator, but with the staff
back home and kept them informed of where I was going. Graduated Harvard then in spring of
'85 and went over to the London School of Economics to pursue a Masters Degree; International
Economics for two years. While there, and again this was Prox's influence, I was able to secure
an internship with a member of Parliament while I was going to the LSE, which was a great
opportunity to compare and contrast the two different democratic institutions - from a
parliamentary form of government to what we have.
And who was the member of Parliament?
Grenville Janner. He was a graduate of Harvard Law School and so he set up an internship
program with Harvard graduates - those studying in London - to come into his office and help
out. And that was a lot of fun. So we were doing that for awhile, but in London for a little under two years. And then eventually came back home and obtained a law degree and started working
for a big firm in Milwaukee for a couple of years. Returned home to La Crosse to work as a
prosecutor and handled a lot of the special prosecutions in western Wisconsin before Steve
Gunderson decided to retire from this Congressional seat. And that's when quite a few people
approached me to see if I had any interest in running for Congress at the time.
Um-hmm. (affirmatively) And you did?
Ron Kind Interview Transcript 34 Proxmire Oral History Project Well, we did after some soul searching. You know, Tawni and I had just been married for two
years at the time, so we were interested in starting a family. And she was working as a court
reporter for a judge in La Crosse. I was doing a lot of special prosecutions throughout western
Wisconsin. Made the trip to Washington. I wanted to talk to Senator Proxmire about possibly
running. And, you know, he gave me very good advice when I sat down with him. He said,
"Ron, I think you'd do a wonderful job. I think you'd make a wonderful member of Congress.
But just know that you need to have skin this thick," and he grabbed his wrist, "because it's
definitely a contact sport, something I'm sure you're used to, but be wary of the criticism that
you're inevitably going to get by getting engaged in this." And he's right, you know. But he was
also very supportive from the very beginning. And in fact, he cut a very helpful campaign ad for
me.
Really)
In the first race. It was during a Democratic primary. I had four other Democrats running. And he
cut an ad for me, just basically saying I'd make a terrific Congressman for western Wisconsin.
And people still knew him so well and he was so influential and they admired him so much, that
I think, to a great degree, I owe this Congressional seat to him, because seniors, especially, just
reacted immediately to that campaign ad. And I did very, very well with them.
Hour/50:20 Onset of BP's Alzheimer's, Post-Senate Relationship with BP, Importance of BP on Wisconsin Democratic Party, BP's Legacy
Ron Kind Interview Transcript 35 Proxmire Oral History Project How wonderful.
Yeah, it was. And I think my dad probably gave me the other good piece of political advice. And
he said, "You know, Ronnie," - and, you know, he was a Republican but, of course, he was fully
supportive of my efforts - but he said, "I would think that politics is going to be a lot like those
days when you were playing quarterback. Because every time you stepped into that stadium, you
know, half the people in the stands wanted to see you complete passes and the other half wanted to see you fail miserably. So if you could take that, you can probably handle politics."
Another great metaphor. So you won your seat in 1996 and by that time he had been retired for
eight years.
Yeah; about eight years already, yeah.
Were you surprised when he didn't run again?
You know, not entirely. Because at the time, there were some old-timers in the Senate, and I
know he had mentioned to me on a couple of occasions that, you know, the Senate should not be
used as a glorified nursing home. And I think he didn't want to do that. And he wanted to get out
while he was still on top and not a burden and not being propped up by staff, as unfortunately
some Senators did in the later stages of their career. And now maybe in retrospect, I know there's been a lot of speculation about what he knew about the disease and when he knew it.
Ron Kind interview Transcript 36 Proxmire Oral History Project And, of course, the infamous pamphlet in the top drawer that Ellen found. And so I would guess that maybe he had an inkling even then that something was coming up.
Did you notice any decline in him? You said that after you got into office you visited him?
I did. You know, even when I was running. I saw the deterioration from '88 when he retired to
even when he cut that first campaign ad for me, because it was hard for him to do it. And it was a
short script that was given to him, and he read it over. And I know right before the cameras
rolled, he was concentrating hard. He had his eyes closed and then when they gave him
"Action!" he would spring to life. And he actually revised the words in the script and he said it
much better than what the media consultant had drafted out. And he just nailed his line on it and
it was the old Prox coming to life again. But when I was elected, I made a point of trying to get
over to the Library of Congress at least once a week where he had a small office where he could
read and do some writing and crossword puzzles and that; just to check on him and talk to him
about the issues of the day. And he'd always have a bunch of articles that he'd cut out forme that he wanted me to read, and always quick with his opinion of the issues of the day, too. But that was hard, because you could see the progression of Alzheimer's from week-to-week and
month-to-month and his gradual deterioration. And it was hard because his mind was so sharp
and he had such a wonderful intellect. And then to see that gradually rob him of that. And it
frustrated him to no end. You could just see it frustrating that he wasn't able to recall names and
remember things as well as he did.
Ron Kind Interview Transcript 37 Proxmire Oral History Project It also seems like he was very open about it, in my reading. It wasn 't talked about as much back
then as it is now. Alzheimer's wasn't in the news.
That's right.
7 thought that was interesting to know that he made that public.
Yeah. He didn't hide it, you know. And he wasn't afraid to meet with people and that. I know the
family, Ellen in particular, were worried about him being off on his own up on the Hill [Capitol
Hill] and at the Library of Congress. And there were some instances of him wandering. And, of
course, everyone knew him at the time so they knew where he was supposed to be. But I know the family was concerned about that.
When was the last time you saw him?
Well, it was right before he went into the nursing home on a permanent basis. And I had a
chance to get together with him at the time. And at that point, things were deteriorating pretty
quickly. I'm pretty confident that he didn't know who I was at that time. It was hard. And it was
hard for the family, too, and hard on Ellen and the kids.
So that was already in early 2000 something.
Yeah, yeah. What would that have been . . . '03 or so, I think it was?
Ron Kind Interview Transcript 38 Proxmire Oral History Project Did you hear any stories about him after you got to the Hill that you didn't know about?
Oh, man . . . Dave Obey's got a million stories on just about everyone from the Wisconsin
Delegation. And of course Dave, being where he was on Appropriations, wasn't the biggest fan
of the Golden Fleece Award because Dave understands that we do need to clean up the
earmarking process, but there are also some very legitimate congressionally directed spending
programs that may have come under unfair criticism. But Dave had great admiration for Bill
Proxmire because Representative Obey felt that he was the one that brought the Democratic
Party to the promised land in Wisconsin. Prox was the first one. This was a heavily Republican
State for a very long time - from the Civil War to well into the 20 century - and Prox was the
first one to break the barrier and to reach that high level of office. And because of it, I know
Dave and Gaylord Nelson and others felt that if not for Prox blazing the trail the way he did, it
opened up the doors for others to follow.
What do you think his legacy is in retrospect now, looking back, or maybe what should it be?
Well, I think it's a message that you can still do what you think is right in your heart in public
service and get credit for it. He really was the conscience of the Congress, one of the hardest
working members that was there, one that brought balance to issues and took his job very, very
seriously. And one that never removed himself too far from the people that he was responsible in
representing. And if everyone could take a little lesson from Bill Proxmire and adopt it into their
public service, I think this country would be a lot better off.
Ron Kind interview Transcript 39 Proxmire Oral History Project Is there anything else you 'd like to add?
Nope; covered a lot.
7 think you did a great job. Thank you for letting me interview you.
Thanks. My pleasure.
Alright.
Ron Kind Interview Transcript 40 Proxmire Oral History Project