3612 612[COUNCIL.]

Questica p.Issed; the Councwil's, amend- PAlPER PRESENTED. ment not mader. By tile Colonrial Secretary; Report onl No. 76o.-Add new denuse, to stand ats investi ,uatiozis it the compositioa± of the Clauste 272. as fojllows :- If eit her III, se ga es caused by blasting in winies. Of Parliament, -within thirty days 'text after any ree-ulaiii. or by-laws hiave been so laid before it, resolvvs that such regulations (a by-laws ught to be annul- led, the same -hIal!, after the date oit suchl QITSTIltN -RAILWAY PROJECT. resolution, be of nto cffect, without Pre- judice to the validity oif anything Iuinv Rlo. V. HAMERSUEY asked the in the ivaurtiruc tinder- the some.. Colonial Secretary:. Is it the intention of The MINISTER FOR MINES: The (lie (ioverinnent to introduce a Bill for Council had inserted the provisioni taken the construction of' it line of railway from from the Commonwealth Acts. He did Perch to Waniwetoo at ant early dale? riot approve of it but it had been urged to have it l-assed because in a health Act, The COLONXIAL SECRETARY re- wirih was an Art of regulation, greater plied: The Railway Advisory Board has power should 1)0 given to deal with those been requested to make an inspection of regtulations than wouild be the case in re- tile Wnnneroit district, find snainnit at gard to other Acts of Parliament. He recommendation upon the ap~plication for moved- a la y four Ptlt. Ulk receipt of That [lie amaendmeni be made. the board's report the Government wvill Question passed: the Council's amend- determine whether the line is one which ment made. ran be includedl in thle Government pro- On motion by the MINILSTER FOR rrnueof public works to he submitted MfINES, No. 77 made. to Parrlianment next session. No. 7S (consequential on No. 52) p)0st- poned. Progress reported.

Tin's"-art jrurure a! .- 5 a.m. (Thursdlay), NOTICE OF MOTION-MINING INDUSTRY. Notice of inoliu iii tie name ot -0 'IF. 0. lirimagv, li :prjoiutt 1 [loyal Conmrissioin lo inquire into cud rep~ort on the iirii indtoq rv, called on. 'IeowfilatiVe C(ltomicil lion. T. F. 0. BRIMIAOE (North- Thursday, 2nd Febrcary, 1911. East) : In consequence of the lateness of the seisiorr. and also the po-;sihifiiy of Worrirs presentetl . . 36112 the session closing very shortly, it was (toetion t 1Railway projet. Warnueroc 361t2 Notice at motion, flinitig indlustry A.. 1)"12 hiq iriteirtion to a'ck leave lo withdraw thre Thiui, Public T~trnry, Dtnvcut, mad tl (alli-iy ..tWca;rn Ariir1i.,, Rect., 3n. ?'~i mnotion,. The House woul inot have sufl- Tranifer of Luint Ac.tkMt. eieitt linte to L',ttntiou Act Arnmdrent.'2a.. Cornrail give a mo1tion of this inn- Criminal Code Act .%tiaendmeur, 2a., Coot. :;! juortairre adcqrtiale ctinsidera tior. Thie Rtoads, Recoin. Loan. 91,10,00. 1R...tl matter xvA4 of t-onsilleiaie itttortance. ti',rmrsty, 21t.. ('out 3(Z t6 ivoriri thle House to t'"uHinwelutnry Allowanves, IR. .... 1 and Ire have liked EiectoraiArt Auienuinetit, Ae.,einhiy'siunmnd. have had mnore tine to iousider it. 'By meats .. ... ~ Alopropriuti -n, all Otanet, .7440 leave of tire Iloise. therefore, lie woruld Supply, 41)61 7110. Lill otres . 3t wittudiaw the inotioll. )Iottou riir.- r industry., to iqie . A4ljnurnncut, ut Lie tit boriHiurs Tire PRESIDENT: Really th(le motion ThIe l'ItESI l)N'I' took the C'hair at wanrot hefore the Housse; it had neveIL 2.l15 p.111_ arid read prayeiS. been. niore. [2 FEaRuAay, 1911]] 3613

BILL-PUBLIC LIBRARY, M-USEUM, Hon. R. D. McKENZIE : lie- AND ART GALLERY OF WEST- ports were presented to Parliament an- ERN AUSTRALIA. nuafly from the Library, and from the Recommittal. Museum and Art Galery; they were separate institutions, but the committees On motion by Hon. R. D. MCKENZIE were comprised of the same gentlemen in (Honorary Minister), Bill recommitted each case. The word "any" would apply for amendment. in the event of there being two commit- Clause 12-Quorum tees, and it could also stand if there Hon. R. 3. MCKENZIE moved- should be only one committee. That in line .1 the word "seven" be Hon. J. F. CULLEN- It was under- struck out and "six" inserted in lieu. stood from the Minister that there was In the original amendment it was pro- only one committee, therefore there was vided that five trustees should constitute .no reason why the word "the"' should a quorum; this was altered to seven; it not be inserted. was now found that six would be a better Amendment put and passed; the clause number than five in view of the difficulty as amended agreed to. in getting many of the professional gen- Bill again reported with further amend- tlemen, who would be appointed as trum- ments, and the report adopted. tees, to attend meetings. Read a third time and passed. Hon. J. F. CULLEN: The "Minister should make the nunmber five; it was a mistake to make a quorum more than BILL,-TRANSFER OF LAND AkCT one-third, which would be ample security A]KENDMENT. that nothing foolish would be done. Bill read a third time, and passed. Hion. R. D. McKENZIE: The question was fully debated i~n another place, and it was felt that five would be too small a number. As a matter of fact, 10 was BILL- CONSTITUTION ACT AM]END- suggested first, hut a compromise -was .MENT. arrived at and seven was inserted. Second Reading. Amendment passsd; the clause as Debate resumed from the previous day. amended sgreet-W. Hon. Sir E. H. WITTENQOIM Clause 16-Personal property vested in (North) : The Bill before tbe House is trustees:- a most important measure and, I think, Hon. R. n. McKENZrE: - This deserves the fullest consideration. I am clause was amended by inserting after thbe Riot going to say the Bill is a new one, word "Act" in line 7 of Subelause 1 the because I understand it has had the eon- 'words ",except so far as any such goods sideration of hon. members before; in- and chattels are on loan to either com- deed, I am told it has been debated at mittee superseded by the trustees or as some length. I had not the opportunity the Governor may otherwise direct." of hearing those debates because I had There was a misapprehension that there not then the honour of being a member of were two committees, one to deal with the House. When first I saw this measuire the library and another for the museum. on the Notice Paper what most surprised As a matter of fact, one comnmittee con- me was the fact of the Government sub- trolled both institutions, therefore the mnilling a Bill of this description. One word "either" in the amendment might could have understood it had the Bill come lead to a lot of confusion. He moved an from the Opposition, hut it caused me sur- amendment- prise that it should have emanated from That the word "either" be struck out the Government. However, as it has been and "any" inserted in lieu. submitted for our consideration I anm sure Hon. J. F. CULiLEN: There was only the House will deal with it most carefully. -one committee, therefore why not substi- From what I can gather there has been tute the word "the"? outside the House no demand whatever 3614 3614COUNCIL.] for the measure, little or no request that poses all taxation and regulates all ex- there should be a reduction of the fran- penditure. Not one penny of expenditure chise; that is to say, little or no request can take place without its consent. And beyond that made by a certain section of the representatives in that House are sent the public and some portion of the Press. there by the votes of every adult person I have not heard of any public meet- throughout the State who chooses to re- ings called to discuss the matter, nor have gister. What I want to make clear is I heard of any great weight of popular that every adult person who chooses to voice brought forward in its favour. register has a vote to send a representa- Hon. J. W. Kirwan: Almost every mem- tive to the House which controls the whole ber of the Assembly is in favotur of it. of the expenditure, the imposition of taxa- tion, and practically everything that is Hon. Sir E. H. WITTENOOM: I am worth living for. No matter how poor only considering the voice of the people, that elector may be, no matter if he has and I am supported in my contention by not a single interest in Western Australia, the fact that at the recent elections two or if he does not own a single penny, he can three who stood out stoutly for the present vote to return a representative to impose condition were re-elected. Mainy of those taxation on the whole conmnunity. I who pledged themselves to vote for the thing this is as it should be. I think every reduction of the franchise did it volun- individual throughout the State should tarily, and I feel quite certain had they have a vote so that be can say under what not done it they would have been elected laws and conditions we ought to live. But, just the same. That is my impression. apart from those who, perhaps, have no Therefore it does mot seem to mue it is at interest in the State and very little means, all imperative on the House to make such and who perhaps do not care very much a very substantial change unless it has how things go, there is a large number of been shown to he the fullest desire of the people who have the spirit and instinct people. Of course, there are certain sec- of thrift, the desire for accumulation, the tions of the people most anxious for it desire for saving, the desire to have some- to become law, because it means for them thing in their old age, to provide for their a representation pledged to support, if not children and to provide the abolition of the House, at all events against sickness. These people have their accumulations a reduction of the franchise to adult suf- and, as a rule, they flinMelly The people frage. We know that, because no secrecy who pay the taxes., may point out again has been observed in making these state- that the imposit4-I Of taxation is very ments. They say the people are not re- often made by $eople who have not the presented in this House, and that it is mecans to pay those taxes. Under these necessary to reduce the franchise so that circumstances; it was recognised that while representatives can be sent in to vote for everybody should have a vote for the As- adult suffrage. Notwithstanding that it sembly it was only fair that another body is on the p ropaganda of a certain sec- should be brought into existence which tion. nothing will make me believe that would afford some protection to those who they will vote for the total abolition of were thrifty and had accumulations. I this House, although I feel certain it wvill, take it that was the view when the ir possible. be made a House on adult suf- Constitution was framed. This House was f rage. To hear some people on the sub- created, and I take the liberty to show did ject one would think every person who that during a large number of years the not possess a vote for the Legislative Legislative Council and other bodies of Council was practically disfranchised and a similar character have carried out their really had no representation in the Con- duties faithfully and well. I would chal- stitution. [,et us look at the position v'ery lenge anyone to say that this Legislative carefully. Our Constitution is composed of two houses, one of which is elected on Council of Western Australia has ever adult suffrage. That House controls the stood in Ilie way of any progressive legis- whole of the business of the country, im- lation which has ever been submnitted in [2 FEBRUARY, 1911.] a reasonable way, or for which the people sent constituency, but some time ago I met have asked. In proof of that I would in- a number of the electors of the North vite members to turn to our statute-book. Province, and not one word was said dur- They will there find legislation dealing ing the meeting as to the reduction of the with every class of the community, legis- franchise. lation that provides for all, from the Hon. J. W. Langsford: You never poorest to the wealthiest; the regulation have any contest in the North Province. of wages, of thrift, of work, constituting endeavours to do justice to all classes. Hon. Sir E,. H. WITTENOOM:- But Therefore, I say when -we find on our the electors hare a method of conveying statute-book legislation of that descrip- their ideas just the same. I also took tion it must be accepted as proof that this the opportunity of making a visit to my Rouse has never stood in the way of pro- constituency as far as Broome, and in gressive legislation which has for its ob- each centre I held a meeting, but not ject the liberties of the people at large. once did I have a single request made It is sought to reduce the qualification of that there should be a reduction of the this House by something like 50 per cent. franchise for the Legislative Council. On And it is given out clearly in some places the contrary, I heard once or twice anl that the chief object of thi is to enable exprsession of the hope that it would not representatives to reduce it by degrees to be reduced. No matter how I am situated adult suffrage. i call only say that if with regard to my private views, I am .ever we have a House like this reduced to here to represent my constituents, and as adult suffrage I think the time will have T have had no notification that they de- arrived when the Government of the State sire this reduction, and as T feel uiyself should he conducted by one House alone. that it would be hardly wise to make it It would be absolutely superfluous to have in the circumstances I have mentioned, two Houses elected by the same class I feel constrained to vote against the of electors. If I wanted an instance in second reading. I think I would, perhaps, proof of my statement I would only have be willing to consider some amendment to turn to the present Federal Parliament, of the present position on the 'agroand the senate of which is elected on the same that sonic tim~e ago when the franchise lines as the House of Representatives, was first fixed the rents of houses were with the consequence that only one class very much higher than they are to-day, of peuple are represented. To show the and the consequence is that manly people -absurdity of it I 'think I may say that who had a £e25 qualification then may not during the last session of the Federal Par- be in thle same position now owing to the liament not a single alteration was made reduction of rents. It would be a great in any Bill sent up; at all events, there pity and a great loss if people who have were very few in the most important Bills;. had the privilege of a vote were to be Consequently, it has become -what this disfranchised. In these circumstances, I House has been untruly accused of being. think I should be inclined to consider simply a House of registration. I am some reduction of the franchise. As to the pointing to this, not because I 'wish to be principle of it, I may say I consider disrespectful to the Federal Parliament, that so long as we have two Houses but merely as an illustration to bring to one should be elected on a qualification your minds what I wish to convey, namely, different from that of the other, but if that once we have two Houses elected on we are going to be elected by the samne the same basis it would ha better to do class of electors, let us theit have only one .away with one altogether. I am sorry that House and be done with it. I have no- I cannot find myself in a position to sup- thing more to say on the subject;, perhaps port the second reading of this Bill. Apart 1 have already spoken at undue length, from any private views that I may have, but that is because I have not lied an I do not think that such an action would opportunity of speaking before as some meet with the views of my constituents. members have, and I wished to place on I have not beeu longt elected for my pre- record my views in this matter. I regret 361 G 3616(COUNCIL.] to say that I shall feel constrained to I agree with nearly all the observations vote against the second reading. made by Sir Edward Wittenoom, and it lion. M1. L. IMOSS (West) : On this would be waste of time for me to detain occasion I intend to be very brief, because the House any further in malting any- I dealt with this matter in a most comn- thing like a comprehensive speech; in- prLehensive manner during the last session deed, I hesitated about making even of Parliament; the opinions I then ex- these brief observations, and it was only pressed I fully adhere to at the present because I desired not to give a silent vote inonment. 1 (10 not wish to give a silent that I rose to speak. vote, and that is why I rise to say that I Hon. D. G. GAWLER (Metropolitan hold the same opinions now as when the Suburban) : My position with regard to Bill was before the House previously. In- this Bill was made very clear at my deed, there is no doubt about the attitude election. The view I then took, and I whiohi I must assume, irrespective of the still hold, was that the country had given opinions which I hold personally, be- no mandate for the introduction of this. cause I am absolutely pledged to the Bill. I said that if the country did give electors of the West Province to vote a mandate, and expressed a definite against any reduction of this franchise. In opinion that a change of this sort should fact, so far as the West Province is con- be brought about, I would be the first cerned. it is now quite obvious what that to support it. As a result of the elec- opinion is, because the three representa- tion which I contested I wvas returned by tives of the province in the Chamber are a substantial majority, and defeated not all pledged to keep the franchise at £25. only a labour candidate hut also a lib- This question was a prominent one at eral opponent, who advocated the reduc- the three contests, and the present mnem- tion proposed in this Bill. Therefore I hers had opposing them candidates who claim that the verdict of the electors, were in favour of a reduction. I can as far as the Metropolitan-Subturban pro- speak definitely with regard to the elee- v-ince is concerned, is that they do not tiohi of Mr. Laurie and myself, but I want a reduction. was away from the State when the Pre- Hon. J. W. Langsford: My experience sident was re-elected. The consequence was the other way. is that I am bound, in acordanee with m 'y platform pledges, to vote for the Hon. D. G. GAWLEB: But -rAy ex- retention of this £25 franchise. Besides perience is later than that of the-bon.. - that, hon. members who have been in the member, and is therefore of more value. House for any length of time know that These are the views I still hold. With I htold very' strong views on this question regard to the general question of adult and that in many comprehensive speeches stiffrage, I say that, although I am which I have made in the House, I have one who holds fairly liberal ideas, I am dealt with every aspect of the matter to not wedded to adult suffrage. I con- justify the retention of the present qnali- sidcr that a stake or interest in the fleation. f say, that bhere is no demand country should be recognised, and that for- this reduction: it is a mere election- thrift and industr -Y should receive can- eering cry. a bit Of Parliamentary clap- sideration as against irresponsibility and t rap that one hears just before an elec- idleness. Political inequality springs dion. 1 repeat that there is no demand necessarily from man's inequality, and for the reduction, unless it is a demand muan has a right, a natural right, to a by those who seek a reduction to £16, share of influence in the State corres- then to £10, then to £0, then to get the ponding with his personality, or as Car- qualifications uniform. and finally to ab- lyle says his ''mights,"''including his olish this 'House. It is in fact, a ques- interests and his faculties. He has a tion of the existenee or the abolition of right to consideration on the basis of this Chamber. and I hold firm views that what he is really worth from zero up- the keeping of this House strong is neces- wards. Applying this view to the ques- sary as; a safety valve to the Constitution. tion of the franchise I say that inequal- [2 FmuAsR, 19n1.] SULW* ity must he recognised, and I go further of the Labour party into this Chamber. and say that personal inequality is recog- Indeed they would have a certain recom- nised in nearly every walk of life at the mendation, for they would bring with present time. It is recogaised in business them a wider and inure liberal concep- and industrial concerns. A man has a tion of the affairs of the country than vote in a company according to the shares perhaps many ofAus, bu~t if they come into which he holds in that company, and this House we must ask them to leave even the Labour party recognise inequal- their pledges behind them. One of their ity in the conduct of their affairs, be- pledges is to legislate iii the inerests of cause in their unions they recognise finan- one particular class only and not in the cial and unfinancial members, and they interests of the State as a whole; bLut, give a right to a man who is financial if they would leave their pledges behind, which they deny to a man who is un- 1, for one, would most gladly welcome financial. All this goes to show that in any Labour member into this Chamber. the ordinary walks of life personal in- The result of pledge-bound members of equality is recognised, and why that doc- any party coming into this House would trine should not be applied to politics I naturally be that legislation would be cannot see, for af ter all, it is only al- conducted on class lines-, it would be- lowing to a man in the politics of the come class Goverument and not party State the same consideration as we allow Government. Party Government has in the community generally. I would been well described 'ay Burke as govern- like to ask why is this Bill resisted by ment by a body of men unted to pro- members of this Housel T think the mote by their general endeavours the answer is perfectly plain: it is resisted national interests and some particular because we know that another party in principles on which they are all agreed. this State have on their platform a pro- T emphasise the "national interests"- posal to gradually reduce the franchise not the interests of oine particular class. with the view of evcntually abolishing It has also been stated that faction gov- the House altogether. As was well ex- ernment- and we see some of the pressed by Mr. Kingsmill at one time results of faction Government through- during an election campaign, that being out Australia-does not seek to serve their desire, are we to be asked to give the State, but seeks to make the up the first ditch in the attack? If that State serve it. That is undoubtedly is the way the Rouse is to be attacked, true. In these circumstances, and, naturally members will resist the on- seeing that the reduction of the slaught at every ditch. I venture to say franchise, as proposed by this party, is that if that plank of the Labour party only a step towards the ultimate aboli- were withdrawn, and they were to agree tion of this House, and will bring about to a reasonable franchise for this House government by a class, I am bound to and say that they did not intend to de- resist any innovation in that direction. stroy it, anty proposal to reduce the fran- There is also the danger pointed out by ehise would he more readily considered Sir Sdwarrl Wittenooni--the danger of by members of this House. But me'nbers dupli cation. If wve reduce the- franchise fee that they are on their defence, and where will the reduction stopl We may cannot, without endangering the exist- be asked to reduce it further and still ence of the House, give up any line of further, until the two Houses are exact their defence at all. It has been sug- duplicates. What would he the nse of gested that the franchise of the House two Houses. one the duplicate of the should be liberalised in order to allow otherl As Sir Edward Wittenoorn said, (if the advent into this Chamber of memr- we might just as well have only one bers of the Labour party. I do not think House. Thea again, the Lower House there are many members of this House, has at present the power of the purse. certainly I am not one of them. who If the Houses are practically duplicated, Wronld not readily welcome any. member what is there to prevent this House ask- 361A Slls[COUNCIL.] in,- for power of the purse also, or that we qualifications existing are practically should have control over money matters, the same as the qualification now if the franchise is practically the same? sought to be reduced for this House. In There has been used in another place another case the Colonial Secretary has what may be called the "unification" unintentionally misstated the facts. I argument. WVe have been told that if understood him to say that the existing we do not agree to this reduction it will qualification for this House has been InI drive the people of the State into advo- existence for 20 years, but really it has cating Unification. I think that is a only been in existence since 1899. The cowardly arg-ument to use, and that it is Constitution Act of 1889 fixed the free- a suggestion of treachery to this State hold qualification at £200 and the lease- and an admission on the part of those hold qulalification at £30; but, in 1899 who use it as to their inability to con- the freehold qualification was reduced vince the electors of this State that they to £100 and the leasehold qualification are right, so that they fly to another to £25. So, really, the present fran- power which they consider may give them chise has only been in existence for 11 what they wish. The Colonial Secretary years. I agree with what Sir Edward in setting ojut the conditions in other Wittenoom has said with regard to fal- States omitted to mention New South liag rents being perhaps a. ground for Wales as having a nominated House. If making us inclined to reduce the present there is one thing undemocratic or il- franchise, but I think very soon that con- liberal, it is a nominated Upper House, dition of affairs will ho rectified. Rents such as exists in New South Wales and are rising now, and I think very shortly New Zealand, if I understand correctly. those electors who have lost their quali- I do not think the Colonial Secretaryv fications will be put back in the saime ini referring to Victoria laid sufficient position they were in before. According stress on the fact that in that State 12 to the figures I have made out, the pre- Inoiiths' residence is required as one of sent qualification of £25 means in re- the qualitiuntions; rur an elector for the gard to the ordinary occupier 9s. 7d. a Upper House. In that State the fran- week;- that of £15 means 5is. 9d. a week, chise is on a freehold annual value of and that of £20 means 7s. 8d. a week. £10, or on a leasehold annual value of Of course the present qualification is on £15. TnI addition, Victoria rightly recog- the clear annual value, that is the clear nises brains and intelligence as a quali- annual value outside of the rates and fication, and I would be quite ready to taxes the tenant pays, but we all know recognise the qualification of brains and the wveekly tenant very seldom pays rates intelligence for electors for this House in and taxes, so that the qualifications I addition to the present qualification. In mentioned are really the rental paid b 'y Victoria power is given to graduates of the weekly tenant. The position I intend the British and Melbourne universities, to take up in the Bill is that I shall to medical and legal practitioners, to support the second reading, but I hope ministers of religion, schoolmasters and in Committee to alter the present and naval and military officers to vote for the proposed qualification to £20. the Upper House. Also in referring to South Australia the Colonial Secretary Hon. J. F. CULLEN (South-East): I did not fully represent the conditions think the best way to support the Bill is existing. Again, in regard to Tas- to be very brief in one's remarks. T would not have spoken at all only for the re- mania, the Colonial Secretary was wrong. 8So far as I can remember, hie markable argument advanced that there is no general demand for this change in in addition to the freehold mentioned the franchise. What is the evidence on the annual value of £10O there was a lease- pnoinftIi It is a funny one, that when mem- hold annual value of £80, but the lease- bers were electioneering their constituents hold value in Tasmania is £80. As a made none. They went round addressing mnatter of fact, in the other States the their constituents, and they were met with [2 FEBRUARY, 1911.1 no demands for a reduction of this fran- ing to give the first ditchl utterly misre- chise. 'Now, what does that amount to presents the position. It is not our ditch. We and our constituents are the provi- All those settled and resident in the State leged people; we are already in possession, have as much right to be in that ditch as and whly should we make a demand? I'n we have. Why should we call it our ditch, other words, why should the electors who and, because we are in, keep them out? have the franchise make a demand upon The House belongs properly to the set- us to broaden it'? tled portions of the community, and the Hon. ID. G. Gawler:- Some of them fact that nearly half of them are dis- wish it. franchised for the House ought to appeal Hon. J. F. CULLEIN: Exactly, there to any reasonable member. I am going to are some of them broad-minded enough to take the further point that through the consider those who are outside. Is it from reduction of rents £16 a year is practic- people who are in we would expect a al ly the same now as £28 a year was when this franchise was fixed. I ask bon. clamour to open the doors? How utterly mess- illogical it is that we should resist giving bets-why should we refuse these people justice to people outside when there is the right to share with us the privileges we no claim from people inside. I give cre- hold? I recognise there is very much in dit to bon. mepnbers that they are of a the argument raised by Air. Gawler as to greater mind than they give themelves the necessity for a differentiation between credit for. I think I am judging them the two Houses, but a fair basis of differ- entiation is the settled resident very correctly, more correctly than they as against are judging themselves. They know that the shifting population. The nomads who even among their constituents there are may be here to-day and in another State many who say, "We are glad to he a to-morrow, I1do not think should have a privileged people, but we are prepared to vote for this House; but -no one who has welcome into our ranks every settler resi- made this State his home should be exclu- dent in the country, everyone who has ded from the privileges we possess be- made this country his home, and given evi- cause hie happens to have a few pounds dence of it by acquiring some small free- less a year. I hope hon. members will not hold, or by becoming a rent payer." Hav- let it go forth to the public that because ing dealt with that rather shallow, flimsy somebody has said a reduction to £15 is only to begin with that it has influenced arxgumeat of my friends, I submit that the question is not whether there has been themr one iota in refusing what can be a great demand or not, or whether behind proved by sound argument to he a just the demand there may not be a risk of a claim on the part of the large number of still further demand in the future. No residents who are now disfranchised. I rational member would have anything to hope every member will give a responsible do with that aspect of the question in de- vote on the question. By the way, there ciding what is right, and what is just. is just one other point. My friends who A small part of the people of the State have spoken have a great objection to what have the franchise for the Legislative they call the pledge that Labonr members Council, but there are practically an equal have, hut it is funny that each of those number of people who have made the gentlemen had just previously said that Stale their home, and proved it by ac- he was pledged to oppose this enlarge- quiring land or renting houses, who are ment of the franchise. I object to the entirely denied a vote for this Chamber. word altogether. I am not pledged. When On what principle of justice can we re- electioneering I declared my views, and fuse to grant them the franchise? It is left the people to elect rue or not; hut the not a question of who has asked for it, basis of my electioneering was this: I? o~r how long we may resist it, or as to what you send me there it will be to use my best may happen in the future if we grant it. judgment on every occasion that may But the question is, "Shall right or justice arise, and I shall hold myself free, and lie done to them"? The talk about refus- so should every member. No hon. member -3620 3620COUNCIL] should pronounce himself pledged to one Gawler, who says substantially that it is side and object to anyone coming in. I not. When this Bill was before the House hope every member will give a responsible last session it was brought in just about vote, and also a vote on the ground of as late as it has been brought in this sea- just-ice. ion, and I maintain bringing, in a Bill. which is of such essential and vital im- Hon. W. IUNGSMLL (Mletropoli- portance to this Chamber at this late hour tan) : I have listened with a great deal of of the session,' is not right, indeed, it is interest, and I hope a certain amount of more than not right, it is absolutely wrong.' instruction to the speeches from bon. mem- It is treating the Chamber with discourt- hers, which have been delivered in the esy, and I found myself not jUStified, course of this debate, and more especially in view of the shortness of time which have I been interested in the speech of the bad to elapse before the prorogation, in lion. member who has just sat down. With not occupying the time of the House to that hon. member I agree on, at least, one an 'y extent in speaking on it. A great deal poinit-and I suppose any bon. member of misconception ,arose subsequently who speaks as often as Mr. Cullen must be through that action of mine. At that right sometimes-and that is, that we must time I was prepared to accept a reduction look at this matter from the point of view representing the difference in value of the of what is right. As far as I can gather, £C25 franchise now, and- w~hat it was really the only question which affects this some years ago, namely, a reduction of subject under discussion from that point £6. of view is a matter which has been touched Hon. J. W. Langsford: That is what upon by one speaker during the debate, namely, what is the value of the £.25 fran- the bear did. chise as it exists at the present time, and Hon. W. KINGSAflLL: I alluded whether that value is similar or equivalent to that cartoon on another occasion. I to that which it had when this Constitui- also referred to the fact that tbe tion of ours was f ramed. We have to con- step~s of the pole were too far apart, and, sider in that respect whether it is right fuarthermore, I also said that bears were that this Legislative Council, or the Parlia- timid animals, and if they became too ment of Western Australia should, in the large they would be found to go up in- first place, alter the Comstitution as re- stead of down. With regard_ to the gairds the value of that Constitution. To popular clamour, if we should bt mnov 'ed this I find myself returning- the answer by popular clamour, most certainly that in my opinion-and let me say that whether we should be moved by it or not, I am guided, I am glad to say in my Par- I am not going to be moved by the asser- liamentary career, which is becoming tion that there is a popular clamour when somewhat long now, by my own opinion, I have evidence to the contrary. I am in in thinking &'hat I am sent to Parlia- a somewhat unique position with regard ment, not as a delegate of any sec- to the collection of evidence of the sup- tion of the community, not as a posed popular clamour. I had the oppor- delegate from any particular portion of tunity soon after I est my silent vote last the State, but sent as a reasonable being session on this question, of seeing face to to use that discretion, more or less, with face, and meeting in a political sense a which it has pleased Providence to endow very large number of electors in this me. Uinder those circumstances I find my- State, and I found that the alleg-ations of self answering that first question, as to popular clamour were, in my opinion, and whether this Constitution should be altered again I beg to mention that my opinion is as regards the relation of the two Houses, what I am to be guided by, grossly ex- in the negative. The second point is whe- aggerated. I think there is a stupendous ther that E25 franchise is equivalent now lack of interest in this question. Shortly to what it was when the franchise was after the opportunity that I alluded to, first granted, and in this connection I find the late campaign for the Federal elec- myself rather inclined to agree with Mr. tion, I had to undergo another election for [2 TFEiRUARY, 1911.] 362162 this .honourable House, and i found my- attitude that I adopted last session, ex- self'on this occasion, I admit to my aston- cept that I took the rather extreme course ishment, opposed, but 1, who had been last session of voting aganst the second branded throughout the State as an op- reading, because the Bill was not in con: ponent of progress, as an arch-conserva- sonance with my opinion. Now I am pre- tive, as one who did not desire in any way pared to give the Bill a further chance, whatever to meet the wishes of -the people, and I shall vote f or the send reading, found myself nevertheless in the happy but I shall vote against the third reading position of beating my opponent. It is if at that stage it does not meet with my true that the opponent was not very well, wishes. knoywn, but my alleged views were well known, and I beat that opponent by a Hon. V. HAMERSLEY (East) : f majority of something like eight to one. It have no desire to take up any length of may be said that there was a small poll, time on this maeasure. My views are we)] known, more but that proves my argument, that if there particularly to anyone who had been widespread interest in this mat- had thle op'portunity of, taking an interest ter, at all events in the province I repre- in the last election which took place in -the sent, if there ha been that popular clam- province I represent, In that connection .our which the Press of this State, almost I may say that the question was made 4ithout exception seemed to think existed, one of the principal features of the elec- tion, would there not have been a prester in- and there is no doubt that th rough- out terest taken in this election and a larger the province it was a fairly live ques- poll recorded, which would have resulted tion. I would not have spoken now on' the matter in my defeat instead of my election. Tak- were -it not that one point in ing these circumstances into consideration, connection with it seems to -me to have been missed by previous speakers. I find myself of the opinion that the pub- We recognise there should be land and in- lic are displaying very little interest in come taxation, and this matter, that we have very little to those who claim there guide us in that respect, and that -we should be a reduction of the franchise for should not be guided by the alleged opinion this Rouse shousld first of all recognise that there should be a reduction in the of the public, but that we should accept exemptions in our own estimation of what is just and the case of those people who are paying direct taxation to bhe -right. I haye already said what my esti- country. It seems to me tha t we are mnation is. I think that the difference in ask-ed to allow a r-eat number of electors the value of the franchise when it was to become enrolled, granted, and the present time, may he re- who will have the powei' of directly conitrolling further leg- presented by a reduction of that franchise islation in this direction of direct taxa- to £20. The Government, on the other tion, and they will be given a vote for this hand,, say that in their opinion the redue- House, and yet, as the present Act stands, lion should be £10. I anm not prepared with thle land and income taxes, those to follow them iu that connection. I ask same people, although they will have a myself the further question, shall 1, be- direct voice in voting for candidates for eause this Bill does not embody exactly Ibis Chamber, will be exempt from direct what I wish, vote against the second read- taxation. It sedmns to mc before -we should lng, and I find myself answering myself be asked to reduce the franchise of this in the negative. At the same time let mue Chamber there should be a reduction in say if that francise-I am alluding only the directions I have indicated, namely, to the rental franchise-is anything under the exemption of £250 with regard to £2, when the Bill comes up for the third land tax,' and £C200 with regard to income reading, I shall vote against the third tax. It seems to mue that if the people reading, even if that will have the effect do not occupy places that are worth £2 of destroying the measure. I hope I have per annum, or if they have not that stake made my attitude on this matter abun- in the country, which is worth £100, and dantly clear. It is practically the same at the same thee are exempt from paying- :3622 :622[COUNCIL.) direct taxiation, it is rather unreasonable no demand for this reduction. Ve have that they should ask for further powers had this plank in the platform of suces- in returning members to the Upper House sive Premiers for the last seven or eight of this State. Several speakers have men- years; it has been in the policy of each tioned the value of the qualification to- succeeding Premier promising to place be- day. as compared with what it was some fore Parliament the reduction of the fran- years ago; that, I understand, is simply chise for the electors of this House. due to the different interpretation which Moreover, every newspaper which reflects has been placed upon the qualification by public opinion at all is to be found on the legal fraternity. We know that. fre- that side of the question. It has been quently legal opinion changes, and I contended that to use the threat of Uni- would not be much surprised if, in the fication is a cowardly expedient; but it event of reducing this qualification to £:15, is no more cowardly than to use the argu- legal opinion could, if necessary, be found ment of the second ditch. We are told to put the same construction upon it as if this franchise is not reduced the people we had some years ago, and restore the will appeal to the Federal Parliament to, £15 to;£25. It is eisentinlly a question of liave their grievances redressed, and that values, and we know that in nearly all our it will hasten Unification. We need not districts, in spite of the fact that many be afraid of that contingency, neither members declare that rents have come need we be afraid of the appeal to the down, there is a general tendency to valu- second ditch. For if it is not right, if it ing up. In nearly every instance the is not in the best interests of the whole of values for taxation purposes have been the State, it can easily be refused by this wonderfully inflated. There are few House. In regard to the test as to, homes which do not come within this whether the £295 of many years ago was reasonable franchise we have to-day. My equal to the £15 of to-day, we have the views are distinctly against the second outstanding fact that the electors in the reading. If I -find myself in a minority Metropolitan province anr fewer to-day I shall recognise defeat and do my best than two years ago. This is due to the to meet the wishes of the Government in fall in rents in the City of Perth. it regard to the measure they -have brought affects the Metropolitan province more. ill. than any other province in the State. Hfon. J. W. LANOSFORTI (Metro- With Mr. Cuillen, I would ask is it right? politau-Suburban) : This Bill has been I think there are many wdrthy -people before the House annually for the last outside who have an interest in the State seven or eight years. It is difficult to say and who ought to be on the roll of the how far this question has affected the Legislative Council. Instead of weaken- election of any hon. member. My col- ing this House I think it would strengthen league, MTf. Gawler, was not elected be- it in the estimation of the people. Ref- cause he opposed the reduction of the erence has been made to this being a franchise, but in spite of that, and on plank in the platform of the Labour account of his estimable qualities. And party. Is it not clear that if we reduace I think that would apply more or less to this franchise it will no longer be a plank those other members who oppose this. in that platform? Personally. T think Among my first recollections of -his the people who would most sincerely re- Chamber is a brilliant speech made by the gret the reduction of the franchise would then leader of the House, Mr. Kingsmill. be the political Labour party, because I remember the weighty arguments with their base of attack against the Legisla- which he sought to convince the Chamber tive Council would then be removed. I that this measure was in the interests of shall support the second reading. Ihe country. It was largely owing- to the Hon. E. MceTsARTY (South-West):- I quality of that speech and the arguments happen to be one of those recently re- used that may own attitude in the matter elecled, and I can say that throughout was decided, and I have not since altered the length and breadth of my province that attitude. It has been said there is I found no very apparent desire to have [2 FESBUARy, 1911.1

this franchise reduced. On only two or his views axe not in accord, but in re- three occasions was the question raised gard to which lie has to bow to the Joint at all at meetings addressed by me, and will of his colleagues. If there is any cry then it was generally asked by someone at all fromt arty section of the community with 1n0 vote and no likelihood of ever in reg-ard to this question it is not for a having- a vote. I did not find the people reduction of the franchise to £15. but for generally interesting themselves about it a reduction to adult suffrage ai a step at all. Mly opponent was in favour of towards the ultimate abolition of the ireducing the franchise, if not of abolish- House. The cry, I say, is for abolition, ing the House, and judging by the result and I have no hesitation in saying that it does not appear that the people fav- I would just as soon see the House ab- oared his views. When the question was olishied as reduce the franchise qunalifica- put to me as to whether I was in favour dion to £15. 11 will be very interesting to of a reduction I s;aid I was prepared to see tie action which will he taken later support a reduction of the franchise to 01] by those in favour of a reduction to £20, below which I was not prepared to £20. What is a reduction from £23 to £20, go. Last year when the Bill was before or front £25 to £15 for that inatterI For the House I was prepared to adopt that members to say that they- will vote for course, and that is the course I intend the second reading and at a later stag e to take uip to-day. I nam not prepared to rake stepis to make the amount M2. is -give give my vote to any reduction which ridicolous, I notice that my friend, Mr. will bring the franchise below £20. I (1awler. is in favour of a reduction to :am aware there is a certain number of £20, and -it was interesting to hear his -worthy settlers who are disfranchised speech because for a long time during his because they are not paying uip to the electioneering campaign it was difficult £25, but I conscientiously helieve a re- to know which side of the fence he was duction of the franchise from £C25 to £20) on: in fact I re-member very well his be- would bring in almost all of these peo- ing invited by a leading- journal in this pie. So far as the question of having State to state definitely what he intended 'both Houses on an equality is concerned, to do. Personally I do not want to de- mny reply is that as soon as it comes to part from the position I have taken up zan equality iii the franchise of the two all through-that the qualification should Olnunbers We may a; Well do Away With remain as it is. I have no desire to see -- one of them alt ogether, Those arc the this House abolished, and it is perfectly views f entertain, and have for long pn- plain I lint the reduction to £15 is to be tertuained. I amn prepared to support the followed by attempts at further redac- seond reading, and when in Committee tion. and in the long run the introduc- to move an amendment to fix the fran- tion of manhood suffragle for this C'ham- chise at £20. ber. R ather 1 ian make t-his reduction to Hon. R, LAURIE (West) : To re- 15 I would sooner see man hood suffrage duce the franchise from £25 to ;C15 would introduced at once, if that was tie de- be simply tinkering with the question. sire FCthe people:' bitt I do not think rthe If the leader of the House belonged to people do desire that. We hear a great another party and brought along a Bill deal of talk about manhood suffrage, hut to reduce the franchise to £13 it would how man 'y people exercise the franchise meat with a c-reat deal more opposition whten it is aoniferred upon tbemn q We find than it has in this case. It has been said that iii the Federal elections un]vy60 or that when another gentleman was leader 70 per cent, of the p~eople exercised the of the House and brought in this Bill righit which. has been given to thenm, a right his speech was very different from the for which people all over the world have one he made to-day. I think it is because been fg tin hlroutgh 'centuries. To- he holds somewhat different views to-day, day vwe are told that if we reduce or, rather, because it very often devolves tihe francehise to £15. we will give upon the leader of the House for the time the people whin have settled in the Ste heing to introduce a measure with which an opportunity of vntiuz. Mr. (lawler 3624 ECOUNCIL.]

has pointed out that £C20 per annumu is sons, who at one time were entitled to equal to about is. 8d. per week, and Ifr. vote b'y reason of paying £E25 per annumn Langsford says that a great many of rent, would, in a g-reat many eases, he the people in the city are not in a posi- disfranchised now, because they are pay- tion to vote because the franchise is too ing less rents. To make a sweeping re- high. I would like to know how many duction of two-fifths in the qualification houses there are in the city of Perth for is too sweeping anl alteration, and whilst which thle landlords are charging less 1 am in favour of a reduction of the that 10S. a week. I venture to say that rental value and also the property quali- there are not many. Taking into con- fication, I am not going to agree to a re- sideration all these circumnstances, I can- duction of two-fifths. I shall vote for not see my way clear to alter the the second reading, and I hope that the opinions expresse d by me on previous Bill will be modified in Committee. occasions. I am perfectly open in the Question putl, and a division taken with matter. I can do as I like; I shall -have the following result;-

to face the electors in about twelve Ayes .. . .19

months' time, and I am adhering to the Noes .. . . 7 position I took up some years ago. be- cause I have heard no arguments why Majority for.. .. 12 the franchise should be reduced. To lower the qualification to £15 would be Ares. only tinkering with the Constitution. Eon. . F. 0. Moiuse Hon. J. W. Kirwan Hon. EI. IA. Clarke lHon. J. W. Langaford Ron. E. AW.CLARKE (South-West): Hon. J. D. Connolly Hon. W. Narwick I have heard people say that there is a Hon. J. .F. Cullen Hon. C. McKenzie Hon. J. M. Drew Ron. Is. D. McKenzie popular cry for this reduction, but I Hon. Di. G. Gawier lion. B. C. O'Brien have never heard it. and it has never Hon. J. T. Cloister Ron. C. A. Plesse come under my notice. Unlike most hon. Sir J. W. Hackett Hon. S. Stubbs been returned twice un- Hon. A. 0. Jenkins Ron. EI. MeLarty members. I have Hon. W. Kingenaill (Teller). opposed, which, I take it. is evidence NoES. that my constituents are satisfied to leave Hon. V. Hnersley Ron. T. H. WHOMin a matter like this absolutely to my dis- Hon. . Laurie Sir R. H. Wittenoom cretion. I may say straight away that Hon. M. L. Momn Hon. W. Patrick years ago I held the view that if we Hon. C. Sonuners (Tell"r). take what is called the most democratic Question thusq passed. man who has not an inch of land The PRESIDENT: Section 73 of the and dive him a little piece of land, he Constitution Act of 1889 requires that one of the rankest conservatives becomes the second reading of this Bill shall be I hold that view still, and that being so. passed with the c'oncurrence of an abso- I say I would be perfectly prepared to lute majorityv of the whole number of trust a man with a vote for this Cham- members for the time being of the Coun- ber if lhe held the smallest piece of land, cil. I declare that this motion has been to any hut I have the strongest objection passed by such statutory' majority. man mortgaging my property. so to Bill read a second time. speak. The time was when it was con- sidered that a hundred pounds' worth of In Committee. pr'operty was a fair qualification for anl Hon. W. Kingstnill in the Chair. owner. and that £25 was a fair rental Clause ]-agreed to. quialification. Not having been taken to Clause 2-Amendment of 63 Viet.. No. task for the way T voted on the last 19, Section 15: occasion when this Bill was before this Ron. Af. L. MOSS moved an amend- House, T take it that T am left a free ment- hland at the present time. T know of my That paragraph (a) be struck out. absolute knowledge that in my own dis- There was no call for a reduction in the trict rents have gone down and that peir freehold value from £100 to £50. [2 FEBRUARY, 1911.] 362532

The COLONIAL SECRETARY: If nial Secretary. Any men who owned pro- we carried this amendment we would perby worth £50 had undoubtedly more -stultify the vote just given. There were hona. fides as a settler in every sense than -only two points in the Bill, the reduc- the man paying a few shillings in rent. tion in the freehold value from £100 to Immediately a man becamne possessed of £C50, and the reduction in the rntal value land worth £50 he became ambitious to from £25 to £15. If we struck out the increase his property, and eventually be- one- and then struck out the other, the came a better citizen of the -State. There whole Bill was gone. was -a great deal in the saying that the Hon. V. HAlWERSLEY: During the holding of land made a man more on- second reading debate the reduction of servative. Members need not have the the freehold value was not discussed. fear of these scull landholders they Ron. Sir E. H. WITTENOOM.f I have seemed rather inclined to have. -an amendment to move "That 'fifty' he Hon. E. MeLARTY supported the struck out and 'seventy-five' inserted in amendment, as a reduction of £25 only lieu.'' was in keeping -with the opinions ex- The CHA&IRMAN: Unless Mr. Moss pressed by members, and was in propor- withdraws his amendment, I cannot ae- tion to the proposed reduction in the -eept the hen, member 's. annual value from £25 to £20. Those who Hon. M.L L. MOSS: I wvill withdraw held land were so penalised by taxes that mine on the assumption that the Com- they should have some protection. mittee will agree to the;£20 annual value. Hon. fl. G. GAWLER:. It was sug- Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. gested that because it was proposed to Hon. Sir E. H., WITTENOOM moved a makeo an alteration in pa~ragraphi (b) the further amendment- same proportion of alteration should he That in paragraph (a) the word made in paragraph (a), but paragraph "fifty" be struck out, and (tseventy- (a) dealt -with clear freehold value which five"l inserted in lieu. meant "clear of mortgage." The amount A reduction from £100 to £75 was a very of mortgae might not bear the same pro- good compromise, seeing that the value portion to the value of the freehold as Of land had gone uip tremendously. On the amount of rates to the annual value. the one hand we reduced the qualifica- It was a fair thing to allow the £59 to tion, and on the other hand the value of stand. He would therefore oppose the land was considerably increased. amendment. NO;The COLONIAL SECRETARY: Wdhat- Ron. R. LAURIE: The amendment ever could be said in regard to the reduc- might well be withdrawn. Any man own- tion from £f25 to £15, there was no ques- ing a block of land worth £C50 was a good tion that the man who owned freehold citizen, and one who evidently desired to land even as low as £50 in value was a become of value to the State, We should good citizen, and one who should have a encourage the workers to boy blocks and vote for the Legislative Council. What- build on them. It would be the helter ever could be said against the occupier, for the State. that argument could not be advanced Hon. Sir E. H. WITTENOOM: There :against the owner of land. A man might was no desire on the part of his constitu- occupy a house and still notL he a per- eats t~hat the qualification should be re- manent resident of the State; but if there duced, but he was trying to meet the views was one thing more bihaa another by of the Government in reducing the qualifi- which a man signified his bon~a fides as a cation. If his proposal did not meet with settler in Western Australia, it was the the views of the majority of the Com- purchase of even £50 worth of land. We mittee, it could -very easily be shown. should encourage the freeholder, and allow Hon. E, M, CLARKE: There wvere the quialification to stand at £50. numbers of men holding blocks worth Hon. B. C. O'BRIEN: The Committee only £-5 capital value. He alwsy% felt should adopt the suggestion of the Colo- confidenbe in those who owned a bit of 3626 3626[COUNCIL I

mother earth. We generally found them Labour party was a reduction of the as conserv-ative as the worst of us. The franchise wvith -a view to the ultimate qualification of £50 was a fair thbing, and abolition of this House. We could not it would entitle many worthy citizens to shut our eyes to that fact. votle. Hon. C. A- Piesse: I shaUl vote for the Sitting suspended from 4.15 to 4.30 p.m.. paragraph as it stands. Hon. Sir E. H. Wittenoom: I will with- Hon. J. DREW: The amendment pro- draw the amendment. posed would not give satisfaction to those- Amnendmnent by leave withdrawn. who had been elamuouring for a reduction Ron. Al. L. 'MOSS moved a further of the franchise of the Legislative Council,, amendment- and it would not restore them to the posi- That in line 2 of paragraph (b) the tion they occupied some years ago. For many years, indeed toord "fifteeIn" be struck out, and ever since this had be- "1twenty,' inserted in lieu. come an elective Chamber, until the ad- vent of the present Government, there was- The COLONIAL SECRETARY: One only one definition of the clear annual (lid not quite know what was the object of value £25, and that was £,25 rental, but the hon. -member, or what reason the hon. an interpretation was given to the clause,. could member advance why a person pay- and it was a correct one, that ing £:20 in -rent should be entitled -to vote clear annual value meant clear an- any more than a person paying £15. The nual value after deducting for rates object of everyone supporting a reduction and taxes, and repairs, etcetera. It in the franchise was to make the franchise meant that if a man was paying £C32 a as far as possible a household franchise. year rent, in the first place, in order to, It would be dangerous to insert the words get clear anul value there must be de- "household franchise," because it would ducted 20 per cent., which amounted to- be a. matter very hard to define. What £6 s., which brought the rent down to we should arrive at was what were bona, £25 _12s., and then reduced on the basis tide householders, and by leaving the of 2s. in the pound, again a further £& qualification at £20 it certainly would not 4s", which still further reduced the rent cover bona fide householders. It was said to £22 s. clear annual value. '1'he -result that the Labour party would he most waus that the individua was not qualified' sorrowful if we adopted the Bill. Was it to vote for the Legislative Council. not better to adopt the Bill and do away Hon. C. A. PIES SE: It was hisin with the cry for a reduction?9 All mem- tention to support the amendment movea bers could then stand on the same line and by Mr. -Moss, and in the event of it not say, "We do not favour any further re-' being carried he would vote agaist -the- duction." If we did not reduce the third reading of the Bill. franchise to £15 we would still have the Hon. B. C. O'BRIEN: The object of cry raised for reduction- the Government would not be httained Hon. 3M. L. 'MOSS: There were five unless the word "i'fteen" was included members who voted for the second reading in the clause. There were precedents in who favoured the reduction to £20 only. South Australia and Victoria in connec- As to the cry mentioned by the Minister, tion with the reduction of the franchise- Ihcre was no cryf except on the part of of the Legislative Councils of both States. some interested politicians who wanted Recently in Victoria, which was one of' something to use at elections. There was the most conservative States in the Com- no cry among the community for a reduc- monwealth, the franchise had been lib- tion. The logical result of giving way to eralised, and Western Australia would £r15 would he a demand for £10O later on, have little to fear by following such pre- and then a demand for household fran- cedents. Only a little while ago there was clilse, and still later for adult suffrage, a Bill before the Chamber which in- anid then for the abolition of the House. volved an amendment of the Constitution The first plank in a platform of the and on that occasion the Government [2 FEBRUJARY, 1911].)2 3627 took the precaution to whip up a1 their AT2s Ron. E. X. Clarke lu C A. Piesae forces so as to carry the Bill through Ron. P1. Q. Onwier Hot. (3.'SOmnias Ron. V. Hamereley Hou. T. H. walding the House. It was to be hoped the same Ron. E. NoLarty Sir E. R. Wittenloom serious. attention would be given to the Hoa. M. L. Mloss lion, R, Laurie measure before the Committee. Hon. W. Patrick (Teller) The COLONIAL SECRETARY Nos. Hon. T, F. 0. B~rimage Hon. J. W. Langsford 'Mhere was no justification for the re- Ron. J. D. Connolly Hoe. Q. McKenzie BOB. 3. P. Cullen Rom. H, D. McKenzie 'marks of Mr. O'Brien. They were en- Hon. J. X. Drew Hon, R. C. O'Brien tirely uncalled for, and suggested that the Ron. J. T. Olowrey Hon. S. Stubbs SirJ. W. Hacnkett Ron.W. Marwick Government were not taking the same Hon. A. 0. Jenkins (Teller) interest in this Bill as they had done in Ron. J.W. Kirwn ,connection with a measure which 'was re- Amendment thus negatived. cently before the Chamber, and which Clause pat and passed. required a statutory majority to enable Hon. H. L. M1OSS: In December, 1908, it to pass into law. he had taken the trouble to bring down Hon. M. L. Moss: Personally, I am to this House an amendment of the Con- sory you are taking so much interest in stitution in order to deal with the obso- this Bill. lete contract clauses contained in the The COLONIAL SECRETARY: Thes Constitution, which he had then stated, -second reading of the Bill had been car- and he repeated now, were a menace to ried by 10 to 7, and it could not be un- every member of both Houses. The views -derstood what the hion. member meant lie had expressed were set forth in by whipping up -the forces. The Legis- Mansard, and he had hoped that at the lative Council was not a party Rouse, first opportunit ,y of amending the Con- -and there was no whipping up of any stitultion the Government would have members. He took the strongest excep- taken steps to put members on less dan- tion to the remarks which were uncalled gerous ground than at present. for and unjustifiable. The CHAIRMAN: There is no0 ques- Hon. B. C. O'BRIEN: Continued -e tion before the Committee. ferences had been made by hon. mnem- Hon. Al. L. MOSS: Without being bers. to a certain brand of politicians in put to the trouble of drafting a clause Ihis State, and he took those to be aimed he wanted to bring under the notice of .it himself. the Government the necessity for dealing Hon. Sir E. H_ Wittenoom: Not at all. with this matter. 'Ron. B. C. O'BRIEN: Without being The CHATRMAN: Remarks. of that offensive, he th'ought he could say, that sort ought to have been made on the while lie was aware that the Legislative second reading. Council -was not a party House, he was Title-agreed to. justified in the attitude he had adopted. Bill reported without amendment; and Hon. C. SOMMERS: The amendment the report adopted. would receive his support. although he Tbe COLONIAL SECRETARY was of opinion that there was not a moved- strong demand on the part of electors That the third reading be made an for any reduction at all; still, as there Order of the Day for the next sitting. was a spirit of compromise abroad be Hon. M. L. MOSS: Before the Bill would snpport the reduation to £20. If came forward for the third reading would that was not carried he -would oppose the the Minister have a clause drafted to pre- third reading of the Bill. vent members of Parliament being shot Amendment put, and a division taken at as they were liable to be tinder these with the following result:- contract clauses? If the Mfinister would Ayes look at the report of the speech made Noes 14 by him in 1908 he would see that in the measure giving responsible Government Majorit:y against .. 3 to the Transvaal this matter was placed 3628 3028[COUJNCIL.] on a better basis thap.the obsolete provis- crimes of this description have been toa, ions that existed in our Constitution. He frequent, and even last Saturday or Sun- believed that there wvas no member of day we bad no less than two committed Parliament who was not liable to be shot on the one day. The Bill invites Parlia- at, and there was scarcely a member who ment to inflict a severer form of punish- used the railways or had other such ment on this class of criminal, and it is a dealings with the Government but was measure that every right thinking person liable to be unseated. will endorse, for snrely anything we can The PRESIDENT: The bon. mem- do in this direction to make the punish- ber has continued with his advice at too ment more drastic and to make the path great a length. of these offenders harder should be done. Hon. M. L. MOSS: The remarks were At the present time any person criminally perfectly in order, and he would c;ontinue assaulting or interfering with a girl or them until he was ruled out of order. child can be flogged on the first offencep, The PRESIDENT: The question be- but this mode of punishment has not been fore the House is that the third reading resorted to very often, and it has be made an Order of the flay for to- been suggested that flogging should morrow. be made compulsory for the second Hon. MW.L. MOSS: And in supporting offence. That is the principa] ob- tha,h wa sggesting that the Minis- ject of the Bill. Clause 2 pro- ter should have an amendment drafted vides for the repeal of the pars- in the direction he had indicated. graph in Section 185 of the Code dealing Hon. J. W. Kirwan: Will the bon. with the defilement of girls under 13; that member vote for the third reading? paragraph is as follows: 'Prosecution for Hon. M. L. M%,OSS: The vote on the either of the offences defined in this sec- third reading would be in accordance with tion mnst be begun within three months the views he -had enunciated on the floor after the offence is committed." That is of this House. the subsection which it is sought to strike The COLONIAL SECRETARY: No out. This limitation is, perhaps, advisable promise could be made that the Bill would in conection with girls over 13 years, but be recommitted. The Bill was for a speci- it seems scarcely in place here; moreover, fic purpose, and for that reason the lion. it is scarcely consistent with Section 187, member Must recognise that the Govern- which deals with practically the ame ment could not be expected at this late thing. Section 185i relates to actual or at- hour of the session to bring in a far- tempted defilement of girls uinder 13 years reaching amendment of the Constitution, and contains this limitation, while Section which had not been discnssed except in 187 deals with attempted defilement of this House last session. girls uinder 10 but contains no such limita- Question put and passed. tion. The result is that a prosecution for actnal defilement of a girl uinder 10 would he brought under Section 185 and would HILT-CRIMINAL CODE ACT be subject to this limitation, whilst a pro- AMENDMENT. secution for attempted defilement of a Second Reading. girl under ten would be brought unader 1897, and would be subject to no The COLONIAL SECRETARY (Hon. Section limitation as to time. In Clause 3 it is J. D. Connolly) in moving the second provided that where a person of 16 years reading, said: This is a short Bill involv- convicted of' ing a few amendments to the Criminal or over has been previously Code, but they all aim in the same direc- a sexual offence against women and child- tion except for oine amendment contained ren he shall he flogged for tire second of- in Clause 6. The principal object in fence. The section and offences referred bringing down this amendment is to pre- to are:-185, Defilement or attempted de- vent offences on children and young girls. filement of girls under 13; 187. Attempt U7nfortunately, in this Slate of late years to abuse girls under ten; 188, Defilement [2 FaaunRy, 1911.]32) 3629 of girls tinder 16 and idiots; 189, Indecent aly there, and the amendment is inserted treatment of girls under 16; 324, Rape; more particularly to bring the two sections 325, Attempted rape; and 326, Indecent into line. There is a discrepancy between assault on a female. The intention of the Section 326 and Section 189. As the law clause is to make it compulsory for the stands to-day a man may be prosecuted judge to order any person of 16 or over, tinder Section 326, and the girl's consent who, having been convicted of any of would be a good defence; but if a man these offences, is subsequently convicted is prosecuted under Section 189, for in- of any such offence in respect of a girl decently dealing wvith a girl, her consent uinder 13 or an idiot, to be flogged. At wouild be no defence; therefore the amend- tile present time any offender against Sec- ment is sought. Those are the portions of tions 185, 187, 188, 189 (against girls the Bill dealing with the particuilar offence under 13), 324, or 325 may be sentenced I have mentioned. The last clause in the to be whipped even for a first offence. Bill has diothing whatever to do with the But this Bill does not attempt to make it previous clauses, but has been prepared at compulsory for the judge to order whip- the suggestion of the Crown Solicitor, who ping on the first offence, but only on the points out that 'whilst procedure is pro- second offence. vided by Section 696, when an. ex officio Hon. C. Sommers: What is the term of information is filed in the Supreme Court imprisonment? by the Attorney General, no procedure is The COLONIAL SE9CRETARY : It provided in respect of such information varies, but it is in addition to any other when filed in a court of quarter sessions. punishment that may be inflicted by the There is no procedure, and no rules, and judge. I know that in certain quarters it is in order that the rules -may be made a good deal has bean said against the sys- that the last clause is inserted. I beg to tem of flogging at all, and we all agree move- that it is not a desirable form of punish- That the Bill big now read a second ment; but there are certain offences and time. certain criminals that can only be treated Hon. D. G. GAWLER (Metropolitan- ini one way, and that is by a brutal pro- Suburban : I congratulate the Govern- ess. When a father cannot allow his ment on bringing forward this Bill, which child to go out -without her being inter- is almost brought in too late, but I must fered with--and I have bore a long list of say that I think it 'has not gone far cases obtained from the police records, a enough. I think Clause 3 should be al- list which is not particularly creditable tered so that flogging could be made com- and one I do not wish to read-there I.IS pulsory on the first offence. I do -not see something wrong, and the evil requires to why a criminal should 'wait until be has be drastically dealt with. The question ruined two families, until be has brought we have to consider is how to best deal ruin to two innocent girls before he with offenders of this class. I Say that shonld be dealt with severely. If we are lte man -who indecently deals with child- to inflict a flogging at all let us inflict it ren, in some cases of four and five years the first time, so that the man should not oif age-- commiit the offence again; he has to have Hon. M%.Is. Moss: Do not use the word two victims before he is flogged; he is to tman." ruin two families before we deal with -him The COLONIAL SECRETARY: Well, properly. A great deal -has been said the brute that commits that offence should about the brutalising effect of flogging he flogged; that is the only way to treat and it is difficult to keep one's feelings him. Clause 4 of the Bill alters Section under control in discussing a matter of 326 to provide that no girl tinder 16 years this sort. This argument should have no (if age shall be capable of consenting to weight. How can you talk of brutalising in indecent assault. The present section a man who is brute enough to do what the says 14 years, but that is scarcely consis- wn has done; yen cannot brutalise that tent with Section 189. There is an anom- mnan. It has been suggested that a man 3630 3630[COUNCIL.] in my profession should deal with this almost any length, and there may be matter in a judicial spirit, but I fail to some excuse for a man led on in that be able to do that. I cannot separate my way. It is dangerous to allow flogging mind, as a legal man, from my mind as a in cases of that sort;- a man may be parent and a man. It has been suggested under supreme temp~tation, and in all that we should leave the question of flog- possibility it may be as much the fault ging to a jury. I do not believe in that. of the girl as it is of the man. There I I do not believe in making the jury the think it is dangerous to inflict a flogging. judge of the guilt of the individual as With girls under 14 years of age I think well as the judge of the sentence. It is there is not likely to be that depraved altogether opposed to British law and to ebamecter. Statistics have been given as common-sense law. It is also suggested to the number of eases of these offences that the judge will not like to have this which have occurred in the State, but I compulsory order to flog. I do not think do not think we can altogether go by a judge will take up that position. If the statistics, for everybody knows that for jury tells him the offender is guilty, then every one case which is made public there lie ought not to allow any feelings he may are half a dozen cases which are sup- have in differing with the jury to influence pressed, because the unfortunate parents him in ordering the flogging, It is also are overwhelmed with the position and suggested that a man who commnits an will not court publicity. They will not offence like this is insane. There, again, allow their affairs to be dragged before I disagree. The fad of a man committing -the courts, therefore, I say that for every this offence should not be taken to be evi- cause brought under notice there are, at dence of insanity. The mnan may be least, half a dozen which are not heard perfectly sane on all other points, but of. I woldifhe very much for someone he has not the control that 'he should to move an amendment to Clause 3. I have over his passions. If it is said that shall be prepared to do so myself if no a man is insane then -he should be put other member does, to make flogging com- out of the way altogether, put somewhere pulsory for the first offence, and I hope where he can be kept under restraint, to get members to support me. because if he is not to be flogged you must put him somewhere where it is impossible Hon. R. LAURIE (West): If no one for him to carry on his depredations. else will support Mr. Gawler in an at- There is an institution, I believe, in Eng- temipt to alter this pun ishment to the first land, where they carry out what is called offence, I shall be pleased to do so. There the Boswefl system. A person is kept is no question whatever as to whether there on an indeterminate sentence, until flogging is a deterrent to crime. There he shows good conduct, and then he is was a discussion in London the other allowed to be released. I think even that day in regard to the question of whether is an improvement on our present legis- capital punishment or flogging was the lation, but I fail to agree with the idea greatest deterrent and Mfr. Plowden, one that flogging should not take piace on of the magistrates in London, and one the first offence. I do not know that I can who probably has had more experience go altogether so far in the direction of than anyone else in London to-day, stated the 'Bill. The Bill provides that this flog- that a man of the character of Crippen ging shall be compulsory under Section was carried away for the moment by, 188 for the defilement of girls under 16 shall I say, the wiles of a young woman, years of age, and under another clause for and he stated that if Crippen had met the indecent treatment of girls under 16. the woman he ran away with -before hie I think it might be dangerous and unwise met his wife, then he never would have to allow flogging for dealing with girls committed the offence with which lie was under that age. I do not think the age is charged. This magistrate also said that low enough. Everybody knows that there a man committing the crime which Crip- are girls who are sufficiently depraved pen did knew that it was a question of under that age who will lead a man to hanging if he was found out, but that if L2 FEm~uAny, 1911.1 333631 lie had known it was a question of flog- a gentleman who was looking out of a ging hie would never have committed the window and sawv what happened the offence. If a man is given a flogging for criminal would never have been caught. a crime, such as we know many are guilty I think the flogging should be inflicted of in Perth lately, they would never come for the first offence, and a man has only back a second time, because there is no to be flogged once and I venture to say doubt that a man who commits an offence that hie will not come up again. In Scot- of this character on a little child must be land, when I was a boy, many years ago a coward and a brute. In respect to Prarotting was very prevalent. A man flogging for the second offence, to my going hoi at night did not know how mind I think it is wrong. he would be dealt with, and the authori- The Colonial Secretary: They can flog ties stamped this out by making the criminals feel some physical pain. That for the first offence now. is the only way in which to stamp out Hon. RI. LAURIE: That is the point I such crimes. The same thing applies want to make, and I am glad of the in- in an even greater degree to cases of this terjection. You pass a measure here that sort. I truist Mr. Gawler will move in the makes it absolutely mandatory on the part direction lhe has suggested. of a judge to flog a -man for a second Hon. C. SOMMNERS (Metropolitan): offence, and what is the inference? That I am in accord with the remarks of the you shall not do it for the first offence; two previous speakers. The only doubt I that is exactly the -position. Theay have have is as to whether there is any possi- not been doing it, but the Bill says you bility of our carrying the proposed must do it for the second offence. I amendment, having -regard to the feelings should take that to he the argument from in another place and to the lateness of the reading the Bill. We can pass the first 'to carry 4out the offence over, because the flogging must session. If it is possible he given for the second offence, and it suggestion it will have my hearty support, can he argued that the Legislature must but I am afraid that even if we agree to have had good gronds for making it not it it will he impossible to give effect to it. to apply to the first. There is no ques- Hon. V. HAMERSLEY (East) : This tion about flogging being a deterrent in is one of the most important measures cases of this character. A man has only brought down this session, and rather than to be on a jury to know that -when an in- run the risk of having it left off the dividual is brought up on such a charge statute-book, I would prefer to see no otie looks at the individual and wonders amendments made, although I feel the Bill whbat sort of a brute he has before him. does not go far enough. I hope that on T personally think, and I have no hesita- some future occasion, if we have any more tion in expressing it, that instead of put- of these dastardly attempts on young chil- ting an offdnder into an institution after dren, something very much more severe the second offence we should treat him in will be put in the statute-book as against another manner. I should have very little these rfl~flans. These offeuces must be compunction in treating him surgically. dealt with much more drastically than in Trhere. is one place in America where per- the past. I have pleasure in supporting sons of ths character, for a second of- the second reading. fence, are treated in the way T have men- Hon. J. W. LANOSFORD (Metropoli- tioned, and I think the course a very tan-Suburban) : The information in the proper one. As Mr. Gawler so ably put possession of the Colonial Secretary ought it, why should a family have to suffer to he given to the Rouse. Suppose the because a girl has been dealt with by a Bill were in force at the, present moment, villain, and we know that for every case how many of these culprits would it af- reported there are five or sis not re- fect? Are there any who have been con- ported. Take the ease which occurred victed twice? Are we legalising for the the other day, although it is not well to impossible? As far as my knowledge of mention these cases, had it not been for what is contained in the newspapers goes,, 3632 3032COUNCIL.]

in each case these assaults have been com- first offence to apply to cases under Sec- mnitted for the first time. I think the in- tions 1854.and 187 which referred to irns formation ought to be given to the House under 13 and 10 years. Later on be would as to how many times each culprit has propose a new subelause. He moved an committed an offence of this sort. amenidment- The Colonial Secretary: I have not that That in line 5 the words "one hua- information. dred and eighty-five and one hundred Question put and passed. and eighty-seven" be struck out. Bill read a second time. The COLONIAL SECRETARY Judging from the debate which took place In Committee. elsewhere, if this amendment were car- Mr. Kingsmill in the Chair. ried the Bill would not be passed. It Clauses 1 and 2-agreed to. might be that the judge would take the Clause 3-P unishment of whipping to Bill as it stood as indicating that whip- be inflicted in certain cases: ping should not be inflicted for a first Hon. DA G. GAWLER: In carrying offence, bnt judges would not be swayed out his expressed intention he found diffi- in this -way like ordinary justices of the culty in framing the necessary amend- peace. We bad also to consider the ments. If opportunity were given he could fact that girls might be consenting par- achieve his object. It was his desire to ties or mighit give a good deal of encour- make the whipping a penalty for the first agement to boys who under this clause offence. This would mean several amend- would be liable to be fioged for the first ments to the proposed new section, the offence. It was better to allow the judge. first of which would be to strike out the some discretion. It was a serious matter- first word. Following on this he would to flog a boy for attempting something move several other amendments, all with where there were perhaps extenuating the one object in view. circumstances. The CHIIZRMAN: The best method of H~on. D. G1. GAWLER: The judge amending the clause in the desired direc- could order only one stroke; if there tion would be to strike out all the words were extenuating circumstances the judge after "as follows" and insert the words could alter his sentence accordingly. He the hon. member wished to have inserted. refused to believe there were many girls That would provide an entirely new see- under 14 who would encoufage these tion, the object of which would be per- things. When people talked about brutal- fectly clear. ising men they lost sight of the fact that Hon. D. G. GAWILER: With that end small children were rained for life or pro- in view it would be necessary to move to hably hilled- It savoured too much of the report progress. old doctrine "a dog must have his first The CHAIMN: Raving made a bite." The amendment he now moved speech the horn member conld not him- would lead to the subelause he proposed self make that motion at present. to move later oni. Ron. C. Sommers: Could we not have Ron. J. F. CULLEN: By making the a short adjournment? Bill too severe members might defeat their The CHAIRMAN: If it was the wish object. A jury would readily convict a of the Committee he would leave the second offender with the knowledge that Chair for a few minutes. flogging would be inflicted. Sitting suspended from 5.24 to 5.30 p.m. Hon. M.LL. Moss: Time jury are not told he is a second offender. Hoen. D. G. GAWLER: The amend- Hion. J. F. CULLEN: But was it likely ment he had proposed would provide that an ordinary jury would convict a whipping for offences on women as well first offender with the certainty that he as girls. In order to make it apply to must be flogged? Over-sevei-ity missed children of tender years he now only the mark every time; reasonable punish- proposed compulsory whipping for the ment "'as much mare effective. Judges [2 PlaRuRaY, 1911.) 8633

instead of interpreting the Bill as Air. copies had been distributed among mem- bers. The first amendment related to Gawler suggested, would rather be streng- thened in inflicting punishment for the the interpretat ion of " owner." He first offence in gross cases. It was better moved- for us to make -sure of the Bill as passed That the interpretation of "1owner" by another place. be struck out and the following in- Hon. R. LAURIE: We all knew that serted in lieu :-1, Any person who is if a man got a first taste of this he in possession or entitled to possession would act again in the same direction. of the land, or in respect or entitled to Therefore we should inflict flogging so the receipt of rents and profits of the that it would be a deterrent in the first land as:-(a) The holder of a legal or instance. Notwithstanding what was said equitable estate of freehold in posses- about another place he thought they were sion therein) or (b) 'Ihe holder of a,, manly enough not to be carried away estate less titan freehtold under a lease with the idea that juries would have a or agreement granted or made with tAe doubt where flogging was to be inflicted. Crown; or (c) A mortgage of the land There would always -be the same doubt or- (d) The Trustee, Attorney, or au~- in the minds of juries where there was thorised agent of any such holder or weak evidence; and even if another place mourtgagee; or 2, Any person who (a) sent back our amendments, we would have Is in the unauthorised occupation of let them know our feelings in the matter any Crown land; or (b) Under a Ii- and the public also, and could accept the censr or concession relating to any p)osition. specific Crown land, has the right of Amendment put and passed; the clause taking any profit of the land; or (c) as amended agreed to. I Is in the actual occupation (with or Clauses 4 to 7-agreed to. without title) of the surface or any New Clause: portion of the surface of a mining Hon. D. G. QAWLER moved- tenement within the meaning of the That the following be added to stand Mining Act, 1903. as Section LO0h :-"Any person being Hon. J. F. CULLEN: In Subelause 2 of the age of sixteen years or over who there was also a straining of words in an shall be hereafter convicted of saying that a person who was in unautbor- offence under Section 185 or 187 of the msed occupation of Crown land wais ati ('ode shall, in addition to any other owner. punishment provided by law which the The COLONIAL SECRETARY: This Court may see fit to impose, be sen- provision had been put in for a special tenced to a whipping." purpose. People wvho were on 1nining New clause put and passed. leases were in unautborised occupation. Bill reported with amendments, and the but were not actually owners. report adopted. Amendment put and passed; the clause as amended agreed to. Clause 29-Electors: BILL-ROADS. The COLONIAL SECRETARY moved Recommittal. an amendment- On motion by the COLONIAL SEC- That the second and third proviso at RETARY, Bill recommitted for further the end of Subelause (1) be struck out amendment. and the following inserted in lieu:- Clause 5-Interpretation: "Provided also that the occupier shall The COLONIAL SECRETARY: It not be entitled to be registered as an was his intention to move a number of elector unless, under the provisions amendments all of which were conse- hereinafter contained, he applies to the quential on the amendments previously board to have his name inserted in the made. There was not sufficient time to electoral list; but if such application is have these amendments printed, there- made and sustained the occu pier shall fore, they had been typewritten and be registered -in lieu of the owner.", 3634 334[COUtNCIL]

This was purely consequential on the BILL-LOAN, £2,100,000. deeision already arrived at to make the Received from the Legislative Assembly owner, and not the occupier, except with and read a first time. the permission of the owner, the elector. Amendment put and passed; the clause Sitting suspended from 6.15 to 7.30 p.m_ as amended agreed to. Clause 64-Proeedings at nomination: The COLONIAL SECRETARY moved BILL--UMVERSITY. an amendment- Second Reading. That in ine 4 the words "together Hon. R. D. McKENZIE (Honorary with the names of their nominators" Minister), in moving the second reading, be struck out. said: I feel it a very great honour in- Under the present Roads Act the candi- deed to have the privilege of introduc- date had to have nominators, hut under ing such an important measure as the this Bill the candidate nominated himself, University B ill, and I feel perfectly cer- and therefore these words were not neces- tain that every member of this House will sary. be proud of having been associated with Amendment passed; the clause as the passing of this measure into'- law, amended agreed to. because I. think it may justly he termed Clause 100-Penalties in case of nomi- the keystone in the arch of our system of nat ion of incapacitated person: education in Western Australia. The On motion by the COLONIAL SEC- question of a university has been talked RETARY the elause was amended by about in this State for sme considerable striking out of line two the word "Pro- time, but it is only quite recently-and cures" and inserting "nominates himself" it is to the credit of the Moore Govern- in lieu, and the clause as amended was mel-that the question has been brought agreed to. down out of the clouds and is now within Clause 196-M1ode of making valua- the scope of practical politics. It was tions: something like two years ago, in Janu- On motion by the COLONIAL SEC- ary, 1909, that a Royal Commission 'was RETARY the clause was amended by appointed by the Moore Government to striking out paragraph te), and the clause go into the question of a university and as amended was agreed to. advise the Government as to its estab- Clause 202-Valuation of tramwvays- lishment. and also to advise themn on the On motion by the COLONIAL SEC- general management of the institution R.ETARY the clause wais amended by in- if Parliament decided to enact a measure serting after "only" in line four of Sub- authorising its commencement. There dlanse 1 the following words:-"(such were eleven gentlemen connected with lines of tramway, land, buildings, and this State who were appointed on that works being deemed for the purposes of Royal Commission, and to these gentle- this Act rateable land and the Tramway men the thanks of the Government, the Coipny the owner thereof)," and the Parliament, and the people of Western clause as amended was ag-reed to. Australia are due. They have not only Clause 203-Vauation of gas mains given up their time to this question hut and electric liner:. they have given a tremendous amount of On motion by the COLONIAL SEC- labour, and this has been with them all RETARY the clause was amended by in- a labour of love, for no fees were at- serting alter the word "land" in line eight tacied to their appointments on the com- of Subelanse I the following words- mission in any shape or form. It may "an such person, company, or corpora- he as wecll that I should mention the tion shall he deemed the owner thereof," namnes of the gentlemen comprising the and the clause as amended was agreed to. Royal Comamission, ats members of the Bill again reported with further amend- TMouse may not be acquatinted with them. nieiits. and the report adopted. In the first place, there were two mem- [2 FEBuAx, 1911.] 363563 bers of this House, Sir Winthrop Hat- lie travelled to the goldields and de- kett and yourself, Mr. President. Then livered the lecture there. He has done there was the Right 11ev. Dr. Riley, good work in educating the people of the Bishop of Perth, Mr. Andrews the Thapec- State uip to the necessity of the estab- tor General] of School;, Sir Walter James, lishment of a university in our midst. Brother Noonan, Mr. Thomas Bath, Mr. The result of the lahours of this Com- F. B. Allen, Mit W. E. Cooke, Dr. Saw, mission is the report which was circu- and Dr. Smith. Members will see that lated amongst members of this House the gentlemen comprising the commis- somne time ago. Mlembers have no doubt sion -were a very representative number had time to read the report and the of men indeed. Before going any fur- different appendices attached to it. The ther I should like to add that toSi Bill which I am introducing to-night 'Winthrop Hackett the thanks of the wvill also be found attached to that re- ,community are more especially due for port and is the work of the Royal Comn- not only did he give his time in consider- mission. At this juncture it may not hie ing matter when the Commission was out of place for me to refer to the edit- sitting in Perth, but hie also travelled to cationsi system of Western Australia. the old country, and -while there gave I find that in 1871 the Elementarly Eduj- his valuable time and attention in in- cation Act of that year provided for juiring into the methods of the more two classes of schools, ( lie Government modern universities of the old country. schools and assisted schools. The Gov- In addition to all this Sir Winthrop erment schools were under a central Hackett has most generously come for- hoard of education with teachers ap- wasrd and offered to found a Chair of pointed by the district hoards, and the Agriculture should the University be vote was limited to £3 10s. per head on bronglit into existence. T have no doubt the average attendance. The assisted in the course of time we ,;hall have many schools received an amount of £1 15~s, benefactors to the University, but the per head of the aver-age adefidaiee. 'rhis honour wvill rest with Sir Winthrop Hac- system went on until 1893, two years kett in being the first resident of Western after Responsible Government, '.hen the Australia to so generously cone forward Administ ration of the day thoaght lit and endow a University with a Chair of in their wisdom to abolish the central Agriculture. Hfis Lordship the Bishop of hoard, and transferred its powers to at Perth also visited Englandl while the Minister for Education. !i spec Lors and Commission was in existence, and he took teachers were apipointed by'Athe Gover- the opportunity of visiting several uni- nor, and the right of entry wais given versities while there, I think, Cambridge, to representatives of our religious de- Manchester, Liverpool, and Birmingham, nominations, at the same time the vote and he then gathered somne useful infor- per head of the scholars attending the mation which he embodied in a report schools was raised to £4 10s. per head of and which is attached to the report of the average attendance. ITn 1895 there the Commission in, the shape of an ap- wvas an Act passed called the Assisted pendix. I eannot leave this matter with- Schools Abolition Act. This provided for out also stating that the thanks of the an amount of £C15,000 to be paid by way of community are, to a very large extent, compensation to the assisted schools, and due to the secretary of the commission, with the payment of that contribution Mr. Battye, who acted in an honorary the assisted schools were abolibed. In capacity and gave uip a lot of his time, 1898 we commenced thle manual training and proved himself to be a very useful for boys, and in 1899 the total abolition officer to the commission. But that was of school fees was made, at the same time not all, M1r. Battye prepared a lecture private schools 'were to he accepted and which was delivered in Perth on the declared efficient and attendance under question of universities, and not ouly our primiary system of education was, -did hie deliver the lecture in Perth, but made compulsory, and the ageffs at which

a6 3636 3636COUNCIL.] children had to attend was fixed at from school inl Perth, and it has proved itself tsx to 14 Years of age. At this same so useful to the community that branch period the State commuenced cookery technical schools have been provided in classes for g-irls, and since that time all the large centres of Western Australia. there has been added instruction in laun- On the goldfields in particular branches- dry work and general household work. have been established at Coolgardie and This instruction is given now ifl all the Boulder. They are very largely attended large centres ot Western Australia, and and have been found to be very useful to is found to be very beneficial to the the communlity. In addition to the tech- girls attending. in 1902 a training col- nical schools, we opened on the goldfields lege tor teachers was opened. and in in 1903 the School of Mines. 1 think this 1903 central classes for monitors were was one of the finest steps ever taken in commenced. In 1907 these developed into Western Australia in the interests of edu- the Normal school which we have to-day cation. I believe the School of Mines is for educating the future teacuers for doing such good work that it will leave it- our State schools. In 1909 the upper mark right through the world. The auto- classes in large centres of population ber of students attending there, and the were collected in the central selrols, that enthusiasm displayed by those students is, inl centres like Perth, Fremantle, and aire alike gratifying. A large number of the goldfields. where there are advanced .young fellows have been able to secure pupils. They are collected from the small positions after being educated there; inl- schools and taken to the large central deed they have been greatly sought after schools. and the small schools are re- by the leading mine managers. The inl- Jieved of the senior classes, thus enabling finence of this School of Mines will be the State to provide more efficient and felt in dlays to come right through the higher instruction to the children, in fact. mining world. It will not be out of place it takes the( formu more of secondary edu- here to draw attention to the comparative ration than primary education. Last cost of education to the State between the year free continuation evening classes years 1900 and 1.910. The total cost of were instituted. These classes -were in- education in 1900 was £V8.000, while in stituted soCI hat a hay between the timie 1916 it had increased to £C183.000. These of leavinig school and going into employ- amounts are partly made tip of. tueni should reueivi' snime education. InI departmentail expenses in 1000. mny instances a boy leaving school at £8,000; in 1910. £1]2,060: primary 15 -years can get no furthier education, education inl 19010. £E66,000; inl hie does llot ---Q employment at once, and 191l. 4.152,000. Charges are mode for hoebecome-; a menace toi the commtunity students attending the Techinicail School liv loafinig about the streets. It was with and the School of Mines. The average at- siii' idea of r'ontinning the education of tendance in our primary schools was, in tins class; ot our youthls that these con- 1900, 14,600; and in 1910 it had in-creased Iiinatioli closmss were entered uponl. It to 27.000. or nearly double doriog te ten is ;iiteiided cdnlin tigns6,month to open ier:and we may reasonably expect it (bill, firsi S-econdary schomol inl Western wvill extend inl the same ratio durin the A uistralia. This school hits been built next tenl years. With regardl to revenue miningt rite last 12 inci us and. I under- in school fees: inl 1.000 we colleced £470. stand. the applications for admuission tire while in 1910 the amnount so collected was f'ar greater than the numbepr that can £4,520. The question of whether wve are lie acconmmodated. With the building of g~oinir to make a charge for those attend- this Modern or Secondary school the ing thre 'University will have to be seri- State is further extending- the systemi ously gone into, and if it is decided that (of education, and the teaching in that we are to provide free education in the school will make the students tripe for University. it will be aliuostcomipmlsoryon lte University whnit is started. InI us to make education free in our Techni- 1900 wre estalished our first Techinical cal Schoiol and the School of mines. How- [2 FEBRUARY, 1911.] 333637 ever, that is a question which wilt have Royal Coiniission. which 110 doubt all to be viery seriously considered by Par- hon. members have perused. The report liament in the near future. From what I recommends what is called the Australian have said about -our educational system, it system of university. We in Australia will be seen that the general trend of edu- realise that perhaps4 it is not possible for cation and the growth of the State's re- us to establish a university on the lines sponsibility for the education of its young of Oxford and Cambilridge; we are rather people have been fully recognised by the leaning towards establishing a university various administrations of Western Aus- which wilt assist us iii commercial life aind tralia. There was a time when a parent in establishing inidustries in this u ret might decide for himself whether or not State. All the nations of the world-and he would educate his child; that time has the Conmon weal th of Australia is not passed. -Under our compulsory system behind hand in this respect-are learning- of primary education a. parent has no that their commercial and industrial pros- option but to send his children to school pent)' depends on their methods of cdu- between the ages of six and fourteen. The eating thle whole nation. In no conutry State has shown that it realises its respon- is this more marked than ini Germany. sibhlty, not only towards primary educa- For some ten or twenty years the German tion but ini a great measure in respect to people have been very much alive to thie secondary and technical education also. I value of technical education. They have may here state that in the Loan Estimates compulsory free tehnical education, aind which are being brought down provision we all know how G-ermnyI- lies is made for the extension of the buildings gone ahead during tile past tell connected with the Technical School and for twenity r ears. in rega rd 14) I believe a sum of £10,000 is to he spent thle ulanufavi iiigi industries. She has in providing, accommodation which T am become a power in the commercial and ex- told is absolutely necessary. porting- world which she was not some Hon. M. L. Moss: Where are you going time ago. This has all been brought to have the University? abouit by the techinical education she has Hon. R. D. MecKENZIE (Honorary ivnto her young people and, to Minister):- That wrill have to he consid- a gieitl extent, to the education which er~ed. I will come to that point later. It thas beeit imparted to those young1' people byx tile uniiversities is also intended lo spend a good deat of estahlislhed in Gei- money in extending the secondary school mjally- [i] Leeds and IManchester they buildings. For this purpose some £910,000 jirovide for instruction in subjects such is to be set aside while between £30,000 as coal iniin'iu textile industries, leather and £40,000 is on the Estimates to he idustries. photography and such things. spent on Rhe pirimary school buildings as that. I think those are tile lines we throughout the State. This brings us to requnire to go on in Western Australia. the object for which the Bill has been We have a splendid industrY in our mlin- brought forwami. namely, the establish- ing, and it is only a question of educating- menit of a university in Western Australia. our p~eople upl to the requirements of the Tn all the oilier States of the Common- industry when wecshall find it progress in wealth, and in New Zealand and in all ad- response to anythinir we may do. Then vanced countries throughout the world. we have our' agricultural industr 'Y. Agii- they have universities. These universi- v'uiture has become mnore scientific of late. ties are supported in some cases wholly years. and this necessitates the careftil by the Government. and in others par- educating of those who are going to carry tially by the Government and partially by on that great industry. To this end the- private benefactions and subscriptions.. Vniversity will be most useful. There The modern attitude of the States of the are nmany other industries which might lie Common wealth towards the establish- included in the University. All the newer Merit Of untiversities is very Vcerly o.ut- universities aite diplomnas in Olfttitl lined in the report sentt in to as. 1wy the euclhleerln!t. social ceo-nomty. edlication, U636 Z5638[COUNCIL.1 agriculture, and mining, and I think the 145,000 people and a revenue of £E678,000. Ulniversity if it is established in Western Queensland established a university in Australia, might very well take the ideas 1009 with a population numbering and carry out the methods of the newer 560,000 and a total revenue amounting to univentities in the old country. In 1901 £E4,488,000. It will thus be seen that a motion advocating the establishment of Western Australia, with a population of the U'niversity was passed in this (Thara- 285,000 and a total revenue of £3,365,000 her, and in 1904 Parliament passed an is absolutely justified in establishing the Act creating- a University Endowment University. The estimated annutal cost of Trus;t. Many blocks of laud in the vicinity the University will be found on page 16 of Perth were given to this trust. I am of the report. It is set down at £13,'876. afraid they have not been able to pet The Bill provides for a grant of £13,500 very mnuch revenue from that land, bit to be paid annually to the University. still it was a step in the right direction This is exclusive of the Chair of Agri- and one which might in the immediate culture which, as I have already said, has future be enlarged upon; oily when ire hen endowed by Sir Winthrop Hackett. endow the University with lanrl we should This amiount of tL3,500 is inclusive of endow it with land from which time £2,000 to be given for scholarships, e'- authorities will he able to get considerable hihitions and prizes. The Bill is the coin- revenue. lit 1906 bhe University Graduate stitution of the University, tlie govern- Union wvas founded in an endeavourT to ment of which will consist of a Senate, educate public opinion. In the sanie year, Convocation, graduate and under gradu- in thle Queen's Hall, Perth. a resolution ate mtembers. The governing authority was passed affirmning that the University consists of the Senate and Convocation. should be established. In 1007 a deputa- and un-til the Convocation is constituted tion frmn the University Graduates' it will consist of thie Senate only. Tlin Union waited on the Minister for Educa- Senate shall consist of 18 persons, and tion and urged that a charter be granted not more than three may be professors, for anl examining university; but after lecturers3 or examiners, and not more titant careful consideration it was felt that that two princitpals or I eachers in continuation. idea should he abandoned, and that we secondary; mining or technical schools. should have a, teaching ats well as an ex- The first Senate is to he appointed by amining body. As I have said, in l190) the Governor, and will hold office until the Royal Commission was appointed to tie constitution of the Convocation, whichl inquire in to the whole question of es-tab- will uot be established until it has a maem- lielting thle University in W\estern, At's- bership of 60. The Senate is to be ap- tralia. Turning to the positions of' Cie pointed within sin monthis of the passing sister States of the Comonin-vealth wit ii of the Act, and when thie Convocation is they established their universities and constituted, the Senate will be divided into giving you some comparisons, I think You six groups, one group going' out of offie Will see that we are quite entitled and annually in 'March, the three vacancies may with ever~y s~afety go ahlead inl thle rreated being filled, tone by the OrovernHor establishineul of' the University. New and two by election by the Cionvocatio.t. South W~ales established her university ill the effert oif this will lie thai w'hen the 18.51 when she hadl a population of University is fully constituted the Senate 197,000 and a total revenuie of £400,000. will consist of 18 niembers. six of wvhom In 1856 'Victoria established her univer- shall be appointed by the Giovetrnor, and sity whlen lhe had a population of 12 elected by tile Convocation, the Senate 339.000 people and a total revenue of fron their own mnmber electing annually £C2,728,000. lIn 1870 South Australia at Chancellor and Pro-Chancellor of Vie establiqied 'a university, having then a University'. The Senate will be thle execui- populationi of 188,1115 and a total revenue tive bud; oif the University, which will of 956i4,000. Tasmania established a cointrtol and mjanage the affairs of the univeirsity inl 1891 with a population of University. apptint all officers and [2 FBRtcA1v,, 1911.) servants. runtlitrl the property. Convocation is to be deemed constituted, awl( ititiate any university legislation. and tire provisions regarding the election The Convocationl consists of a variety of of the Senate come into operation. Fur- peWrsohls. AS set forth in] Clause 17 of the ther lpartitidatrt in r-egard to this will be Bill. Th'is chutse reads- seen in Claue 10. Ultimately the Senate will be elected by the Convocation. The 17. t ohlvoeation shall considst of (a) chief executive salaried officer of the Unhi- All mnembers and past members of the versity is to be named the Vice-Chancellor, Senate: (bI) All graduates of the and his alke shall hold good for a -period Un'liversity of the degree of MNaster or1 niot exceeding 10 years. The Vice-Chan- Iloetor: (e) All other graIuttes ot' cellor wvill have a voice in the Senate but the University o? three years' standi-ng: no vote. Other rhi uses provide for the Ld) All giadiites of oilier Inn'ersi- holding of examinations, and the granting ties of three years' siauding4 wiho have of dl, eges and diplomas, and give power been admitied lo de-rrees in the Cal- to the governing authority to make iersitvy. provided that the standling of statutdes in regard to various matters of suhgraduante shiall lie reckoned froml internal control] and general management the dlate of his graduatitin in such of the University. Such statutes are Other University; (e) Such Yellows. to be initiated in the Senate, but must be ap- members. livenriates, and associates of proved by% the Convocation before they College- or Institutions, onlside the are finally agreed upon. The Convoca- State, duly authiorised to grant de- tionl have power to amlendl and disapprove, grees. diplomas, licenses,. orI certilicates When t-hey are approved by both parties, shall ns under- the statutes be admitted the statutes are transmitted to the Gov- to be membens of Coinvocatioin ; (f) ernor1 for his approval and are published 'rho representative for- the time being in the Gorernmient Gazette, but a copy of of any commercial, industrial, scientific, stich statutes miust lie laid before Parlia- or, educational society, iuistitiition, or as- went if it is sitting, or if it is not sitting, social ionl withinl the State having' riot wvithmin 14I days after the conmmencement of fewer than fifty hona fie members,. and the inext ses:5on, and may be annulled by which mrakes all annual contribution to Parlianuct wxithin 30 days thereafter. the University of lnot less than ten Power is also0 given to aimhate educational pounds. and has made suchl contribu- arid other inlstitutions llllrlt conditions: tion for two years ilnmediatelv preced- to be lprovidtd by statute. Tirhe equality iag for whielh the said representa- that of the sexes is provided] for, and the pro- tive claims to lbe appointed; provided hibhition of the administration of any re- tati ve shall be ap- that such represen ligious test; also there is provision for an pointed by the members of such society. annual audit and a report to be sent to institution or- association, and shall hold Parliamenit and laid on the Table eaeh year. but shall be eligible office for- one year. Clause 37 provides for the payment for reappointmeni : (g) All individual of £13,500 annually to the University persons who have made any gift or from the consolidated revenue. Mean- by instalments or donation, whether while the first Senafe will be appointed amounting- otherwise, to the University and arrangements made for temporaryN in money or value in the aggregate to accommodation: and the appointment of niot less than one hundred rounds; (b) professors and lecturers and other offi- The duly appointed representative of cers will be made in order that the U7ni- the Gnild of Under-1raduates. versity may commencve its. operations ait I draw members' attention part-icularly to once. The question of the site and build- paragrTaph (f). I am sure they will ap- ings for the Univei'sity is one that will preciate the fact that on one of the gov- probably be left to a small Commission. erning bodies of the University -will be The Premier, in speaking in another place. represented onr coinniercial. industrial. said in all probability he would appoint scientific, and educational institutions. a Commission to go inito the question amT Wien the number enrolled readies (10 the decide the matter'. I have already said in, 3640 ICOUNCIL.]

commencing my speech this evening that so far as thbis Chamber is concerned be- I deem it a privilege to have been asked for this evening is oven. So now every- to move the second reading of this Bill, thing is changed from despondency to and I know that every member will deem g1ratefulness and applause, and I accept it a privilege and be proud of the f act the plea, of my friends that it was solely that he has assisted in bringing about the owing to the exigencies of business in the establishment of a university in Western two Houses that led to the Bill being left Australia, What we want is to give the to the last. I could not understand it. rising generation a practical education, a for I insisted that our people here are cheap and efficient education. The science as anxious as those in the East, our of mining, and the science of agriculture, parents are as eag-er to see their children and the science of applied chemistry and educated as those in the East, and our mechanics must be taught at our Univer- children, judging from thle Inter-State sity. Of course the classics must not be tests. are more than able to hold their lost sight of, but the education of our own in the examinations. The lists of the people in a practical manner is much Adelaide Irniversity examinations will more important than teaching them dead more than attest to what I arm saying. The languages and classics. There is no need prizes won by the younger members of this for me to speak any further onl the qoes- commuenity have been to my mind, aston- tion. T feel sure every member of the ishing, and only when we reflect on thie House will support the measure almost excellent primary system of schools we in its eutirety. Therefore I content my- have, and also, though perhaps not so self with moving-- successful-secondary schools, only then Thet the Bill be now read a second do we rt'ali*e it i, a l'air thing to p'it time. our children agaist those in the East; and though we do not expect too ich of Hon. Sir .1. IV. HACKETT (South- tem we believe they will come out vic- West): I have to express in the first torious. Both political sides in the Lower my warm thanks to the Hon- instance House deserve the estimation and itp- for the kind way in which orary Minister plause of posterity, and they, no doubt. he has spoken of myself and of my col- will receive it, bitt I admit it is to thle leagues who were engaged in the work of Government at the present moment wve bringing ont this report. I confess that are mostly beholden. It is a. fact thant for some litle time I have been experi- very ninny difficulties confronted encing a sense of despondency. To puit the Government in agreeing to it plainly-I hope my friends opposite this schbeme, the least of which was the finding, of the will not be irritated-I was not quite sure paltry stun of £Q3,000 whether moy good friends, the Govern- a year: butl a-; time goes onl I believe Ministers will dis- mnent were in earnest over this matter. 5 cover that the best investment the coun- The Colonial Secretary:; Well, here is try has made for many a longz year- the measure. putting all thie railways together that Hon. Sir J1. IV. IHACKETT: Yes. I have been agr-eed to in this session and am going- to admilit m1Y error and apolo- the last session-is thle establislinent of gise. The incasure has been kept so late a itnuversitv in Western Austrialia. Be- in the sessioil, hut I had no idea of' tile fore I comel to the qulestion of the report elastic resources of sitting which seem aind thle Bill, a matter which I have spent to be the property of both Chain- a few months on, and a matter that has hers, and I had gliven upl the measure for been gone into so admirably in another lost; but, as the Colonial Secretary has place, and that has received so much at- said, the 1)(-,t proof that the Government tention from the Honorary Minister, I were dealing- perfectly fairly with me in ivksh to refer to two and a half columns the matter is that the Bill is before us of criticism T came across the other morn- nowv, evenl after pasillg another (1m ing- when reading the daily paper. From her: and [ earnestlyv hope that it will a study of that criticism T came to the pass into law without a dissenting- voie eonclusio~i. that the critic mig-ht know [2 FEBRUARY, 1911.1]64 3641' something abut older universities, but hie A tact with re~uard to the ancient univer- knew nothingl about a modern univer- sit e-I amn going hatk about a. thousand sity; and though lie seemed to be on terms- years-was the great success of the peo- of great intimacy with a gentleman of ple from all parts of the wvorld travelled the name of Plato. yet to him Plato was to those universities to acquire such learn- a far more familiar word than the names ing as they 14ad to offer, and these ruen 'of editcational reformers of latter days. were made famous and prosperous, and I understand from the remuarks of this that is what we hope to do with regard g-entleman. that out of a untiversity no to the new University of Western Auts- good can come, but the instruction is tralia. That seems a bold statement to worthless, the thing itself is evil, and make, especially whenm I remind hon. the product is worse. The lion. gentle- members that these ancient universities, man, or, rather, I should say, this critic medieval universities as they are now might appeal, no doubt, to the university called, taught chic fly metaphysics and of many generations gone by for justifi- logic, they taught medicine, such as cation for what he says. There are lists it was, and law, they taught philo- of names put forward of those who have sophy, they taught something of the succeeded because of their not having a dead languages. and they taught a sub- university education. To this it is oob- ject which overwhelmed and swampiled vious the answer is that if they did so all the rest, scholastic theology. In one well without having a university educa- respect we take these ancient universi- tion, how much better would they have ties as our1 model. You wvill naturally done with one? The point is that at the ask me to explain ; what I mean is thnt time these parsons lived-the list of great they succeeded in the way every univer- individuals who have succeeded, no doubt, sity succeeds, that is every univcrsity without any assistauce from the univer- provides for the needs and the wants of' sity-there was no university of the kind the community. and that was what the within their means. There 'was no univer- medieval universities did. Practical arts sity waiting for them endowed with the were only just coinng into existence, and means of teaching them practical work whatever Men wanted fromn those ni- in a practical way. The result was that versities they obtained. The duty of flit they did their hest, but howv much more LUnivesity is to provide the best of every would they have done if they had what kind attracted front all quarters and still- we have at the present time so many uni- ply it to students in the mo1(st interestingl versities competing in all directions, and and effective manner possible. With re- if also they had been able to avail them- gard to our Western Australian Univiur- selves of the immense funds provided for sity, that is precisely the line which we original research in the United Kingdom desire to proceed upon; anyone who has and America. I might point out that taken the trouble to read the report will most of the professional men in all coun- see that all through, that has been the tries have passed through universities, in maxim which we urge upon the Gov'rn- fact I do not know that there is a great meat. This report, if boiled down tu its divine among the many thousands who limits comies to this: it provides for a have lived, whom some university cannot university which shall be popular in its claim. That being so it was a rash state- purposes, populiar in its teaching, and ment to make to pit a man of no uni- popular in its constitution. I have col- versity ag-ainst a man of a university. lected together some extracts from well- Nevertheless the criticism was humourous, known authorities which will give simne interesting and not a little suggestive. idea of what oar conception is as to The Colonial Secretary: More hum- what this university should provide. orouts than interesting. First of all, take Mr. Pritchett, a lead- Ron. Sir J. W. HACKETT: Perhaps ing writer in America. who last yeair he intended to be more humorous than wrote- interesting, but there were many points The rise of thiese great (the State) in it that are worthy of consideration. universities is the monst epoch-making 3642 8642[COL"NCILJ]

feature of our A-meriican civi lisation. torwai-d to thle education of the people~. and they are to become mlore :ad more He says: the leaders, and the makers. if our A modern university niust lake colonur civilisationi. from its covirouitent . Itl motst." in Icome next to Principal Iemnseii. of Jlohni the words of Mr. Chambeirlain. -,,ot only ble a Hopkins II iivCVsi t . His wordi~s ale- school of general culture, but it must also p ractically assist the pros- A d irec t eoi lctioU has beeni shtown peiity and wvelfare of the district inl to exist bet ween tilhe inustria I m11di- whichl it is Situa ted by the exceptional tion of a countryv anid tilie attitutde of attention which it would glive to tile thle country towarids on iversitY work. teaching, of science ill connection with Then I colle to the Right Ho. J.atices its application to local industries and BrYce, wI.o says- inu~ifactures." Cambridge developed the leaching of agriculture because agri- Universities ought to provide a cheap -ultu ye hlad been almost ruinid iii thle *education. Furthei.. rthey ought to pro- Easteiji Conties chiefly t hroughi want vide a practical education. that is to oft scientific knowledge. 'Manchester say, all sorts of professional alid tech- made a fe-attire of commerce and textile nicl as %vell as5 georil l iber-al itm-true- ma nufacturcs. Birmingham of iniinrz *tion. slid mechanical elgineering. being the Next is Sir Norman Lotekver. wt-o said.- centre of a iniing district anid the chief towvn of iron and steel manuifacture,. Our conception of a university' has Liverpool developed like Man- changed. University education is no chest er. a d in addition. coin- longer regarded as the luxury of thle sidering t hat site is one of rich, which concerns only th;ose who the great ports of the world liable to tan afford to pay heavily for it... Science is nlow one of tile greatest ne- infection of all kinds, a Tropical Schol of Medicine comes to the fron t natur cessities of a nation; and oar univer- ally. So in Western Australia. consi- sities must become as inuch thle in-1 dering Ilint oiur chief surers of future progress as battle- sources of pro.s- ships are the insurers of the present ieritv are inining and agricullture (ill- ci tding- viticulture and forestry) wve too power of states. Ini other words, nni- should have "a School of ('ic-eral Cul- versity competition betwveen states is, tre," and grive exceptional attention to now as potent as competition in build- lie D~eparitmeints of Agiiu n - anad ing bat tleshiips; and it is on this ground Mtining. that our university conditions become of the highest national concern .... By these words we stand. This University is intIenided to help people to add ito their Men of science, our leaders of industry success. to inc-ease their wages. and to and thle chiefs of our political parties mnake them altogether more comfortable all agree that our present want of and hiappier members of ourt social sYs- higher education-in other words. pro- *perly equipped universities-is heavily tern than they may be at present. The gi-eat subject oif classics which has been hiandicapping u's iii(the present race for commercial supremacy, because it a feature of all universities of the past 500 or 600 years has been, I will not use provides a relatively inferior brain the wvord degraded, but it has been reduced power, which is leading to a rela- of hav- tively reduced national income. to the rank of lectureship, instead ing a regular bevy of professors to deal I would like to add to these words a sen- with it. With i-egard to fees, per-haps a tence from the report of the Right Rev. matter second only in importance to the Bishop Riley, one of the best educationa- subjects which are to be taught. I am ghl lists Australia possesses, whose time and to say that the Government are not in labour and intellect are always at the( dis- a hurry to give a I)-(nount-enlelt. It L, posal of anyvone lviii wishes to give a lift quite possible it nay be found that same (2 FEBRUARY, 1911.] 364A modification will have to be made in the Hon. M1.L. Moss: And the graduates of recommendation contained in the report, the university. but it is a particunlarly difficult and intri- Hon. Sir J. W. HACKETT: Yes, cate question. There are interests on all Yes, Iam sure wveshall get many of them, sides, public and private. I am sure that hut I am only counting on a small num- the Government will assist the University her from that quarter at the commerce- when it is established in doing the very loeat. best to provide such fees as will enable Hort. J. F. C'ullen: I believe they will all to avail themselves of them, and at all join for patriotic reasons. the same time do as little mischief Hon. Sir J. W. HACKETT: I to the Secondary schools, which de- hope so. As soon as Convocation conmes pend so largely upon those fees for their into existence the Senate becomes partly subsistence. f want to say a word about elective. The Governor has the right to the Constitution. The constitution of uni- appoint six of the eighteen members of versities varies in all countries. America Convocation, and all of these have a right has samples of all; so, indeed, has Eng- to six years' tenure of office. When (Con- land. But two things present themselves vocation comes into existence the electoral to our mind; we must have a Constitution side of the university becomes fully opera- as simple and as little cumbersome as pos- tive. That electoral side is a very serious sible. We must see what the interests of matter, for it really controls the senate to the country are and we must make provi- a large extent. Convocation will have slotn for them. The English model was the right of electing twelve of the absolutely impossible. In some eases there eighteen members of the senate, and it are five governing bodies, all of which, if is quite possible that convocation may they were in t 1e constitution, would claim imlpress its own character on the senate their full licit in the government of the to the detriment of the university. University, and the result would be a Hon. J. W. Langsford: Is the number deadlock. All modern universities in Eng- of convocation limited? land and Ireland are founded on the same Hon. Sir J. W. HACKETT: No, principle. The American and Canadian there is a minimum of sixty, hut there universities were equally imp1 ossible for is no necessity yet to place any restraint our requirements. We come back to the on the growth of numbers. An important consideration of the Australian model. matter to consider is that this popular which is the simplest and most effective chamber, whichever it may be (either one, for our- purposes. The Australian model may be popular and the other unpopular) consists of two chambers. We give them could refuse to allow the legislation of one different names in our case. We call one body to become law and a deadlock might chamber, the smaller and the executive ensue. Accordingly, a change was intro- one. the Senate. and the larger- chamber duced into the Bill at the last moment, be- the Convocailion. The Senate has the en- cause of the advice received from other tire administ rat io n of the Universit v and quarters as to the very great dangers of a share of the legislation it initiates. The deadlocks, and the possibility of the whole Convocation has the entire electoral rights machinery of the university being brought of the University in its hands and a share to a standstill. In Clause 32 it is pro- in the legislation, having the right to vided that if the senate passes a law which amend and veto. Thre Senate consists of convocattion will not agree to. and after 18 individuals. I need hardly go into three months the senate again passes the these details as inv friend, the Honorary proposed statute and convocation is still Minister, has given them. The Senate is obduriate, the Governor may take the opin-! the governing body until the Convocation ion of two-thirds of the members present' is appointed. The Convocation is not ap- at a specially convened meeting of the pointed until there are 60 memhers, and senate, and their decision will override thd- it will nol be so long before this num- objections of convocation. But howrever her is made up, because all the members this works out, the popular side gains the of I lie Senate at once start the roll. victory. If the hostile element is in the 36" 3644[COUJNCILJ.)

convocation and the senate is miore popu- time result of its labours may be the lar. then the senate with its. two-thirds early establishment of a people's unirer- ilevision tomes in and overrules convoca- sity for the Western third of the Corn: tion. Onl the other hand, if it is the mlonwea~lth. We mieed, no countr~y needs seite tlun standis in the way of reform, it more, a home or higher learning and anld conlvoca1tion1 is tile muore popular body, instruction which shall respond, so far only* a year or htwo has to elapse before -is its mieans permit, to time call of a the electoral piowers ot convoeation will million squmare miles of Australian soil. make ihemselve, felt, and convocation can Is it niot time to wipe away a reproach pill a majority in the senate in favonir of which, among the progressive self- its ideas. I hardly think it necessary to governing possessions of 'the Empire. deal at amy greater leugth with the sub- can now be levelled at Western Aus- ject. The matter has been explained first tralia alone? by the Premier, next by the Honorary That is a curious fact. Now that Queens- Minister, and now by myself, as fully as land has taken its place in the circle of itcan be. I wish just to say, with regard to Australian universities, no self-governing the site, that I applaud the intention of country under the British Crown is with- the Government to appoint a small com- out its university except Western Aus- mission to go fully into the question. tralial. The report continues- There arc four sites apparently available, but the site which of all others would be Your Commission wishes that the gap) be closed most suitable, assuming- that Parliament which divides us in t-his, is agreeable, is the site of this Parlia- respect from the rest of the Common- men tary building. wealth, and the noble primary system of free education we already enjoy Hon. J. W. Langsford: Would you extended and perfected, so that our abolish Parliament? children may be able to gather at will Ron. Sir J. NW. HACKETT: We the fruits which grow on the upper would give Parliament a more suitable branches of the tree of knowledge, We site and save hon. members the climb cannot afford to throw away the oppor- up these steps. Parliament is for the tunity now at our doors which should aged. and the Univ ersity is for the young. permit us to develop by the same instru- However, it all depends upon whether ment alike the resources of the State It Parliament is to increase or decrease. rind the faculties of its people. is possible, of course, that so far as the State Parliament is coacerned we may Lastly, I would askc the House to take be left with a building stranded on the these words expressing what America topj of a hill: butl whatever the decision thinks about her universities- may be in regard to the site, I "In sonic States the university is a it, sure that the best will be done for public utility, as are the water works the university. I do not care to and post offices. The American people disceuss the sites miow, but I hope that act as if they believed in their universi- the viewsv of hon. members wvill be avail- ties as necessities, In fact, the uni- able. and that if there is any further din- versities fil such a large part in the life cussion befokt thme Bill is read a second oif the people and come into such close time, fihe fquest ion of site will come in for contact with the practical interests of a certain amount of observation. In the the people that they are felt to be iii- mneantlime. I will not detain the House dispensable. The American university further. Before I sit down, however, I is the biggest expression of the Amneri- would like to readl to the House two short can ideal of democracy." It can almost extracts. One consists of the concluding he said 'that every clas of willing Stu- words of the Royal Commission's report, dent is provided for; every subject finds and is as follows:- an instructor; every method by which Your' Commission desires to once teaching tan be conveyed is enlisted in more emphasise its earnest hope that thbe public service. The typical Ameri- 12 FMrVAvI 1911]:3-4 '164,75

cean who pays us a visit speaks with Apart froin that, when the site for the astonishment of the fadt that Western uiniversity conies to he selected, it must Australia possesses no university. Mr. be at least four or five times the -sizo. Franklin Matthews, of the New York. of the site which Parliament House ILOW Sun. whoi, accompanied the United occupies. With regard to the Bill. I do Slates fleet on their recent visit to Aus- not think that an 'y university has a tralia, w rites in reference to the project broader or more liberal basis thanL the of a univei-itv for Western Australia: one prolposted for Wetern Australia. I *-"Whatever scheme you adopt the best aml not now referring1 to the scope of the thing you can do is to get a university teaching power. which, of course, must started. It would be the most magnifi- begin on modest lines and develop as the cent monument you could leave. The State progresses, hut I ami speaking Of time is opportune for a start at least. the basis on which the instrunment of in- T hope if you do get one started along corporation has been drawn. It is lib- the Cornell lines you will let me come eral, it is modern, it is enlightened, and down and help you to give it a send-off. it leaves room for drawing upon all the I am intensely interested in the matter. wisdom and experience of older founda- and will be glad to do all that I can to tions. I am especially pleased that help." women come in on equal terms with wen, That is all I have to say except to coin- and that the Bill proposes that the gov- mend the Bill most earnestly and warmly erning authority shall be in a position to this House. I cannot believe that any to make the doors of the university wide hostile voice will be raised against it, and enough and free enough to admit every I trust that the reward of the efforts of deserving student. I think it is very this Chamber, conjoined with those of probable thai the governing power will another place, wiii he the establishment recommend, and that Parliament will en- of such a university as will be a source of dorse, a beginning with moderate fees, pride and honour to the Commonwealth and not a free University- moderate fees. and do a priceless service to the eons and which will be a stimulus to every student daughters of its people. I have the great- and his parents, and wvill cause Lhe peo- est possible pleasure in supporting the ple of the Slate to value education more second reading. than they could do if the highest form Hon. J1. F. CULLEN (South-East):I of instruction were entirely free. I am ,desire to express the very deepest grati- satisfied that with moderate fees and tude to the gentlemen who have brought liberal bursaries there ixill be no diffi- culty the university movement to such a point in opening the way to every de- -of success, and especially to Sir Win- serving student, and such students n-ill throp Hackett for his very large share be all the prouder of the education they in that work. I must say, however, that receive. There are some things with regard I was somewhat startled at his refer- to the arrangement of adminis- -ence to the possibility of Parliament ab- tration of this University that I do not -dicating in favour of the University. His agree with. There are to be a Chancellor, remarks were somewhat of a valedic- Pro-Chiancellor. and Vice-Chancellor. In tory, not to say renunciatory, nature. I other univeisities I think this is avoided -do hope that the hon. member is not coin- by calling the executive officer by a dif- ferent templating any *withdrawal of his great name. T cannot see why he shall powers of assistance to the legislature be called a Vice-Chancellor; hut that is -of this State, and I am still more sern- a matter of detail. I want to sound -ously concerned that he should think for a note of warning with regard to the pro- one moment that the functions of State posal to make the governing authority of Government would wane or become less the University a land jobher. T do hope in any sens e. The State administration I1hat the Gioverment and the University of Western Australia is only in its in- authorities will hr more wisely a~dvised. fancy; its, greatest work lies ahead. In the ld days,111tlandnwmnts were 3646 [COUNCIL.] very poor. Now the State has seen fit ary Minister, it is an honiour and a to vote year by Year all the money that pleasure for anY lin. inember to have education requires, and it will be a bad to do wvith the founding of this Univer- business and a foolish business to ask the sity. Senate '4 the University to come down Hont. Sir E. H. WITThNOOM] front their nigh position to enter the lists (North) moved- as a land jobber in competition with the That the debate be adjourned. very cute and clever men engaged in that Motion put and a division called for. busine.ss in lihi, country. Depend upon Hon. Sir E. H. WITTENOOM: There it, that the Lands Department is quite has been a promise made by the leader of capable ohr running the Crown Lands of the House that the next motion should the State and selling them to the best be dealt with, and this promise has not advantage, and t he private land dealers been carried out. The next motion deals, are quilte capable of dealing with tin wvith an important matter. The debate oil private lands, yet the governing body of this Bill could be continued to-morrow. this University are to enter the ranks of The Colonial Seci'etary: The lion. meni- land jobbing, to turn a nimble shilling her is not right in saying that any promise by the sale of anl allotment here and an has not been fulfilled. allotmnrt (here. This will mean at blot Hon Sit- E. H. WITTENOOM: I dis- on thle functions of thle governing body tinictly say you made a promise that you of the University. I could understan d would puit the motion down for consider- if a bigger site of acres had been 100,000 ation first to-day. You said it in the- set aipart for University endowment; even then somet other managing- authority'N presence of the Honorary Minister. would do double ats well as the Univer- The COLONIAL SECRETARY: Is it sity itself. The thing is out of date al- reasonable to suppose that an aIbstract together. Where it has been tried in motion would take precedence of public Australia it has been proved a mistake Hills on the last day of the session? It and given up. I want just one other is ol ure onn:fl eaecn word about the criticism ag-ainst the Uni- aorua'eI. i ie ebt a versity. it has been said that many uni- lDivision resulted atsfollows: versity men are failures, and not a fewr A1yes 7 of them tire fools. A great deal depends Noes .. . .10 on the critic's idea of what constitutes success and what constittutes wisdom. Tf Ala~oritv against a the objeet of life here wvere mierely tob YVES. scramble money together, honestly or: dis- lion. E. M. Ciark; Hon. 0, A. Plase honestly, and then spend it in a carouse, Hon. V. Hamoricy Sir E. H. Wittijoiot 01- Itistriant indulg-ence, then. perhapis, Ron. J7. W. Langeford Hon. J1. M. Drey some men might be looked upon as Hon. B. C. O'Brien (Teller). very foolish. But w~hat is liunt's life? N 098. A mali is 'as he thinks. The university' Hon. J. D. Connolly [ion. R. D. Mc~enzte crowns the profession for educating Hon. J1. F. CUlet tion. E. Mclarty thoug-ht, for developing the real man and Hon. D. 0. Gawter lioD. M4. L. Mom. I Hon. C. McKenzie makin- Sir J7. W. Hackett him fit lo enjoy the life he is Hon. W. Kinganitli (Teller)- intended to live.. There can be no more Eon. W. Karwiek wretched man onl earth than the rich man. but the man of a clever refinled Mtotion thus negatived. mind has continued enjoyment. I say Question put and passed. eduention is the greatest wvork the State Bill read a wenud time. has put its hand to. Western Australia In Committee. has been' doing splendidly up to this Honm. WV.Kingsmill in the Chair: Hou- point. and now this University will crown R. D. McKenzie (Honorary Minister) in the structure, and I say wvith the Honor- charge of the Bill. [2 EntunRy, io11.164 36A7

Clauses 1 to 11-agreed to. 1 oil. It. D. McKENZIE: There was Clause 12--Chinvellor and iiro-( 'ani- no justification for lowering the number 'cellor: of the quorum. Eight was not too high. Hon. Sir J. WV.HACKETT: A Chan- Hon. J. F. CUJLLEN: The Sydney cellor was more oirnamedntal than any- University had( started with too high a thing else; the Pro-Chancellor took his quorum, and wvithin two years it was place in his absence, mid the Vice-Chian- round necessary to pass a special Act of cellor was the executive oftecer. Parliament in order to) lower that quorum. Hon. .1. F. Cullen: In Sydney the exe- He moved an amendment- eiitive officer was called the registrar. That in line .2 "eight"'. be struck out Clause put and passed. and 'six" inserted in lieu. Clause 13-agreed to. Hon. R. D. McKENZIE: This Clause 1 4-Control and managemtent of valter had been fully considered by the property: commlissioners appointed to go into the Hon. J. F. CULLDEN: The University question of the establishment of the Uni- should not start land jobbing. This versity. Those gentlemen had had extent- clause gave the governing body power sive exp~erience in the working of univer- to hold all sorts of allotments and carry sities. ' of uis would like to put our the necessary revenue. Therefore, the mioney' into industries which would not hon. member's charge is brought down to retuirn any revenue for seven years. I will this: that in 2 , years, from June. 1907, now give a few partieculars very briefly, as to December, 1909, the company recehied to the operations of the company and in rebates £13,000, the whole of which leave hon. members to judge as to whether was recovered by the Government ii 1910 the 4'nlnlany are doing- good to the iii extra railage and whartaze. No ex~tra country, or. as 'Mr. Moss says. whether concession whatever was e'-er riven to the we have a Ililopoly built uip which is, company. This 10 per cent. retluelion working 1to the detriment and disadvant- was only a fair trade redlaction, but wa.s age or' the State. Their railways, plant, given under the special circumstances. The mills, machinery, buildings, etcetera, in only reduction the company* ever had 'vas to Western Australia represent a value of fl-rk under the same conditions as any- £650,000. independent of their freehold one else. I shall not weary the House possessions, which are assessed at £84,000, mucli longer. but I wvant to deal with thie on which they pay taxes to the Govern- question -as to whether the companly do inent of this State and the Federal Gov- good or harmn to the State. At the risk ernuient. in addition to their dividend of repeltit ion J1 must point out that I he duty tax' on their Western Australian company rescued the timber industry in profits, while their stock and book debts this Sta te from chaos and put it on a sub- amnount to just on £40,000. They paid stantial ad( gwo footing. Instead of in timber leasehold rents in 1910, £-9,189. eight struggling companies writh eight The total actual cash expended from the different directorates and cstablishmebts, Perth office daring 1910 amounted to each trying to compete with the other £1,019,000. The total number of me" both in this State and London. each try- emiployed according to the latest figures ing to undersell the other,. none of them is 2,3t64, and the actual wages paid fo)r able to employ a large number of men or 1910 amounted to £456,500. They operats pay good wages, a state of affairs Mfr. 27,9 miles of railway, and they have in Moss would have us ret urn to. as I work sornethling like 700 horses,. said coni- gather from his statement 1 say instead sunieri during the year 10.10, 3,300 tons of of this wre hare a company doinf fairly r'laaff: 93,000 bushiels of oats, and 90,000 well, able to employ a- large numher of bushels of bran. while to feed the tut.1 men, able to pay the best wages ini the Whoam liey employ they used £4,500 worth Common wealth. able to export and exploit of flour and £E14.000 worth of sheep tbe tivInIer business throughout the world. aiid cattle. The bill paid to the Goy- Where would the business have been if erlnmenit railways for 1910 amounted to it had not beenl for the enterprise of tljiL £112,S(00. Three-quarters of _Millars' jarnh trade is an export trade and every enimpany ? Besidv, thie United Kingdom,' they have, at great expense and trouble! load of timber that leaves the country and energy, established depots in New reprIeseLnts about £3 55s. per load actually Zealand, four in Africa. four in India. spnt i this State and], consequently, two in South Ameriea, Uauila, Egypjt foreign maney brought into the State. Straits Settlement, Shanghai, Germany. This inditstr ,vis not like the industry of Antwerp, and Holland, and all over lie Wlwat--iuuwiamg. where eachi man is cutting- Commonwealth. They are doing this, and against the other, but it sends its produce out of tlte jarrah trade they are now get- out of thipe ountry and introduces here ting some retnali for- their energy and what wve want in exchange, niamely. hard enterprise. It has taken them some seven money. and that is one great advantag~e [2 Fs~unrY, 191.J 3657

in connection with this business. They for a Royal Commission. I am pretty have exported during 1910 no fewver thin well cognizant of the working of that 177,000 loads, so that you will find [lie company, but at the same time it does tcompany have been instrumental in bring- one good to hear the facts and figures ing, into Western Australia during, 1910 supplied to LISby Sir Edward Wittenoom. th',e sum, of £575,000. The company con- What do we find? That 'that company stitute a maost valuable consumer to have are employing a large number of men. within the State, consuming a large 1 contend that what Western Australia is amount of produce of different kinds, and languishing for at the present time is in- offering an incentive to people to breed dustrial life. This I count, at all events, good drauglht horses. Moreover this is al about the third industry in Western Aus- done with foreign money. As far as the tralia. I say, and I know what I am talk- shipping is concerned, I need only refer ing about, each and every one of the to the town and port of Bunbury. Hon. men employed is a bona fide producer of members know Banbury pretty well, and wealth. What we suffer from to a great are probably quite aware that the ships extent is that too many of us are living are brought into Hunbury as fast as they one upon the other. This is not the case vati be got to take the timber away; so in respect to this industry. They are no one can say that the company are not bona fide turning into money what other- working their leases to the best of their wise would be useless to the State. The ability and trying [o send their produce figures given show that the company have away and realise on it as quickly as ps hitherto carried on successfully, and I say sible. Three of the chief statements that any industry which does well for it- urged against the company by 'Mr. Moss self is doing well for the community at were dumy ing, monopoly' , and lie rais- large. We take, for instance, the amount ing of prices. I think you will all agree of carriage over the railways. T will ask with me that I have answered him, arid, any lion, gentleman, in view of the figures T hope, satisfactorily. I have given all given, can we avoid regarding this timber the information I can, and if you still carriage as one of the main factors con- think it necessary to haive a Royal Cown- tributing to the prosperity of our rail- iuisqiou I will see that all possible in- ways? One has only to go to Bunhury to formation is Afforded to the commission. see six or seven steamers Alongside the At the same time I may add that very jetty, all loading timber. In my opinion little more than this can be given, because 3lillar Brothers have more than carried I have placed frankly before you every out the spirit of the Act. It was con- detail in connection with the office. Before tended they should be compelled to have sitting down 1 would ask the Press to give a mill on every concession and to turn ant a fall report of what I have said. The with each of these mills a tiddly-wiuking remarks of Mr. Moss have been publicly quantity of timber in order to comply ab- set fo'rthI in their columns and, having on solutely with the letter of the Act. But the one hanid published the remarks of what have they done? They have gone at Mr. M'soss. it is only fair that the Pres it in a business-like way, and have planted should publish toy reply. I hai , nothing huge mills on two or three concessions, further to say oilier than to again ask and the aggregate output of timber from lion. members whether, in view of the in- these mills more than exceeds the total formation and facts I have placed before amount they would be compelled to turn them, they think we have a monopoly' out under the conditions of the lease. built uip which is working to the detriment Now it appears to me that what is asked And disadvan? age of the State? is that they shall do away with their Elan. E. M. CLARKE (South-West) business-like methods, and, in order to I eannot allow this discussion to go with- comply with the conditions of the lease, out having a few words to say. I contend shall have a number of small mills erected that no better advertisement could be at a cost so enormous that no company given to Millars' Company than to ask could stand against it. I do not desire 3638 658[COUNCIL.] to say much about this, but it may be Ron. C. A. ['jESSE (South-East) : contended that they are denuding or de- A-fter the explanation given by Sir Ed- stoying the forests, and that the country ward Wittenoom I think .1r. Moss should is getting nothing for it. It has already withdraw his motion. Having heard what been pointed out that they are paying I have, and knowing, the surroundoiii more per acre per annum to the Govern- exrcumstiaces, I think the motion should ment for the light to cut that timber, be withdrawn. which in years to come will renew itself, Ron. F. MeTARTY (South-West): I than do the people who actually buy the feel nalled upoin to make a few renmarks land. I think that should commend itself in regard to this motion. As one livinRig to all. I would like to have something to in t hat particular part of the count rv say on this. T was iii hope the lion, gen- where the timber is secured T am in a tleman wvho mentioned the question was position I., know pretty well what is going into the subject of what is to be going on. and I canl assure hjon. members d]one to restore the timber now being cut that uniless they, have happened to travel tMit. There is this difference between tim- through thle South-West province they her and g-Old. The gold is in the g-round. call form '-erv little idea of the enormous. and so long as it is there it is of nto uise quantity of timber being turned out every Io anybody, while once it is taken out it day. If the complaint is that the timber is no longer there and will not come back is not becing cut fast enough. I think again. The thiber also is there until such there is very little foundation for it. timle as it is t urned into money. Ulntil WhatI trait1 les on, is the question of how then it is of no use to anybody. But, bugl this output (.ani he kvpt tit). Tlhe- unlike the gold, 4he l imber will reproduce timber in thle South-West is employ'ing itself. What has been going oil in the alli enormous numuber (if men. and also* forests for thousands of years is obvious. providing, a market for the agrieulturists, Jarrah trees have been growing upt, ma- thus affecting the railwvay' to anl astn- (tiring and] going to deeny. It is niothing ighing extent. Again, at Bunbry one hult common domestic economy to assume ean see the busy state of affairs on that hat, once miatured, these trees beg-in to jettY. all duie to the timbher industry. One oletoororatce and that being so, it is in tie (nilhlt help) hut woiideir what will be tile interests of the State that they should result when these forests have been cut be converted into a marketable (ommodit v out. What is tbenl going'. to ]Cecil Ihe before deterioration and deay set in. I roil wn vs auid the shipping going? WitlI, would like to hear- the lion, member's% regard to1 the price of timber. I believe views as to the conserving of young for- it is pretty high. hut at the same titnu ests after the timber has been takein off we muist consider that wages and the them. It has been contended the com- general cost of producing are equally' panly shouild simply wvork eh of their high. As Sir Edward Wittenoomn has separate concessions wvit-It a little nmil. pointed out, these mills soon cut out the( That, to my, mind, is absolutely ridiculous. timber over a considerable area, and. eon- So long as thle eompany carry out, the seqniently. the company- have to extend spirit of the agreement nothing more their railway at great expense. and haof should be required, and I contend that the timbe- over long distances to the they hove exceed this by far. We come saw-mills. Necesgsarily tvfie expense keeps nex t to the complaint' that they have oil i nereasineg: ho(wever. I thinuk no ex- made money. I rejoice to think that they ception call be taken to Sir Edwvard Wit- have; for I like to see all who invest their tenooni 's expla nation as to the putting mioney in Western Australia secure a rea- down (or h~i?- mills, to work two or three sonable return for' the outlay. I ay this leases. It is surpriinng Ioi goi to those Royal Commission should not be ap- timbelifiunji ,and to seeohow wvell the pointed if it is going to cost the State workmen are provided for. Tt gives, Ilue anything at all. However, if the appoint- irnpressiohi that mills are not 1)1 11l ,iuent is insisted upon it will prove the sinipl v to last a few weeks. hut that they best advertisement the companyv ever had. are haill wvilla a %iew to carr-1Ying on wvork [2 FnivAunv, 1911.1 3650 for many years to come. I think there inserting after the word ' district' in can be no question with regard to the lines two anid four of Subsection two the company doing their duty with refer- words 'fir su-itrc. " ence to the output of timber; they are The COLONIAL SECRETARY: This carrying on the export at an enormous provided that w-h'ere one per-son passed rate. I have no desire to see any wore from one subdistrict to another subdis- timber cut than there is now, because I trict in the same electoral district he fully realise how disastrous it will be should not be disfranchised. He moved- when all the people engaged in the in- That tlee amendment be agreed to. dustry are thrown out of employment, Question passed; the Assembly's and the production will be considerably amendment agreed to. lessened. There is no need for this Com- No. 3.-Clause 8, insert after '"amen- mission. I am not prepared to say ded" in line 31, "By adding the follow- wvhether the timber is at a higher price ing words to Part iii. of paragraph (e): than it should be in a country where it is -' who are wholly dependent on relief so plentiful; but with this exception, I from the State except as a patient under am in a position to say the company have treatment for accident or disease in a done splendid work, and have been not hospital.' and.'' only of immense advantage to the timber The COLONIAL SECRETARY: This industry, bot have given an impetus to provided that inmates of charitable in- every other indtistry and calling through- stitutions not wholly dependent on the oat thle South-West. State should not be disfranchised. He On motion by Hoen. V. Hamersicy de- moved- bate adjourned. That the amendment be agreed to. Question passed; I he Assembly's TIILL-PARlLIAMENTARY amendment agreed to. ALLOWANCES. Noa. 4 (consequential) -agreed to. Received from the Legislative Assem.- No., 5.,-Strike out Clause 30 anid insert bly and read a fi-st time. provisions relating to questions to be put to voters (aide Minutes). The COLONIAL SECRETARY: Thle amendment provided that certain ques- BILL-ELECTORAL. tions were to be put to the elector who was Assembly's amendments. on a roll for a district where he did not Schedule of six amendments made by reside at the time of an election. He the Legislative Assembly nowv considered. moved- That the amendment be agreed to. In Committee. Question passed; the Assembly's amend- No. l.--Clause 1, line 8, strike out ''March'' and insert ''May'' in lieu ment agreed to. thereof. No. 6.-Add the following new clause to 'Thle COLONIAL SECRETARY: Most stand as Clause 39 :-"iSection 208 of the of the amendments wvere small. This principal Act is amended by striking out provided that the Act should come into the word 'officer,' in lines two and three, and inserting 'attesting witness' in place ,operation in -May. He would- That the amendment be agreed to. thereof." Question passed; the Assembly's am- The COLONIAL SECRETARY: This endment agreed to. was an amendment to provide that the No. 2.-Clause 6, strike out paragraphs person to attest an illiterate elector's name (c) and (d) and insert the following- new need not necessarily be an officer of the paragraphs in lien thereof:-'' c) By departnent. He moved- insertingr in Subsection one. after the ThIat the amendment be agreed to. words 'to vote,' the words 'at any pol- Question passed; the Assembly's amend- ling place in the district'; and Md BY ment agreed to. 3660 3060[COUNCIL.]

Resolutions reported, the report adopt- servant shall be fairly considered end ed, and a 'Message accordingly returned that it shall not be left to any civil to the Legislative Assembly. servant to go and fight his own battles to gain the rights due to him under the. Statutes. The civil service should have BILIJ-ALPPBOPRIATION. the best men and get the best work done and pay the best wages in the State, arid Altl Stages. Received from the Legislative Assembly that it not being done. and rend a firs-t time. The Colonial Secretary: They have all, had increases this year. ,Second Reading. Hon. J. F. CUELLEN: All? The COLONIAL SECRETARY (Hon. The Colonial Secretary: Not all: tme J. D. Connolly) in moving the second rank and file. reading said: It is not necessary for me Hon. J. F. CUTLLEN: There are a num- to speak at any length in moving the sec- ber of mnr who wvill not set influences. ond reading of this Bill, It is not usual to work and cannot get their rights. for thre House to debate at ally length the '['le Colonial Secretary' : They are all Estimates for the year. This is a Bill treated under a scale. covering the supplies provided on the Hon. J. F. CULLX: 1 fear they are Loan Estim~ates and the Revenue Esti- not. These servants must be the best, mates for the current financial year. If and that result can only be obtained by bon. members desire any information I cveryv ii serva nt he ig trented fairly shall be very pleased to give it in Comn- artd justly. I believe we shall have to deal mittee, but( Tpresume, as these Estimates wi th n Bill to increase rthe salaries of loeal- have been thrashed item by item iii an- bers shortly, but, while I am not permitted other place, all the information that is to discuss that Just now, I may be per- required has already been conveyed to mitted to refer to the servants of the lion. members. I move- State who-are not treated with due con- Thal 1hir Bill toe noir read a second sideration. Some Tshall mention, and as lime. I cannot possibl 'y refer to tme officers I Hon. .1. F. (CUL]LEN ISouth-East) shall refer tol time offices they fill. In New 'lThere nare two or three things to he SoulhI Wales inl tite Legislative Couiieil .said more emphiatically in this House the clerical service costs £E2,600( a year; thain in Ilie other. I wvant the Colonial Wtestern Australia pays C900. In the Secretary to convey' to the 'Minister Legislative Assembly of New South Wales for Railways at' urgent niessage that Ifie cost for clerical service is £3,1731, many of the trains are unable to whereas inl Westertn Australia the cost is carry the traffic. and before long, if he £C950. I admit that the affairs of West- does not expedite time p~rovision of miore en Australia are on a smaller scale, but trucks. and conveniences for passenger if hion. members will think a little threy I rafie as wvell, a very' serious condition of will find that the scale does not malke thinigs will result. such a great difference in the actual work Tihe Colonial Seeretaryv: That mnat Icr is Io be d]one. There is pracically the same receiving attention niow. gntiiud to be covered in the duties of these Hon. j. F. CI'LLEN: As far as nn offcials; they have the same time and hle seen the Minister for Railways has not labour. The chief office,, of the House tnt yet been seized byv the seriouness of o'ctrupy not merely a place of service in I he position. and withi time enormous nc- the H4(nse but a kind of representative veleraljolt of nail way building -this clon- posilion. They are looked to to supplp- try will be il, a very' bad way for trucks inent the representative positions filled and travelling conveniences. Another 1)' the president anid Speaker. Western inatter I would like to touch uipon is that Aiustralia has nt begunl to treat hier, ill the ' eietl administration. both Houses chief' clerical officers as she shoald cnf tine Legislature desire that every civil dto. Tinaii the Clerk of Parhia- [2 FrXHUtRan, 1911.1 366) meats of Western Australia with 'ill Bllr-SUPPLY, 1911-12. his responsihilty receiving £450 a year, All stages. aind the Clerk Assistant, who is Clerk of the Executive Council and Usher of the Received from the Legilative Assem- Black Rod, drawing £350 a year. I hope bly and read a first time. the Minister will have this matter looked into and see that justice is done. This State could afford to do what is fair and Second Reading. just to all who are in the service, The COLONIAL SECRETARY (Hon. and especially those who hold responsible J1. D. Connolly) inl mloving the second positions. readtiug said: This is a Bill lo apply out Honl. E. MeLARTY (South-West :I of the Consolidated Revenue Fund and would like to say a word or two to supl- from money s to credit of the General plenient the remarks made by Mr. Culi- Loan Fund the sum of £1,6S3,100 to the len with regard to the railway rolling service of the year ending 30th June, stock. I put two or three questions to 1912. This is a somnewhat unique mie- the leader of the House a few weeks ago sutre in the history of the Parliament of and the answers I got were very unsatis- Western Australia, although not so in factory. and I say without hiesitation that other Parliaments, Lt is briefly to pro- they were absolutely incorrect. In answer vide for supply for the first four months to one question as to whether the depart- of the finncial year 1011-12. The cir- went expeced io be in a position to meet cumstances are somewhat peculiar, in- the requirements for rolling stock the asmuch as Parliament is in session very Colonial Secretary replied thaqt they late this year, and the general elections would he in that position if they* got for another place will take place in the sufficient notice. I would like to know middle of this year. Those facts, to- what they call sufficient notice, because gether with the absence of the Premier in a little while ago three solid days were connection 'Vili, the coronation celebra- allowed to elapse before n reply could tions in London, and the possible ab- be obtained regarding rolling stock and sence of other members, are responsible I believe last week, one hundred hlead of for the fact that there will be no ses- fat cattle which were waiting to be trucked sion until after the new Parliament is on nmarket day w%ere left behind because elected, which will probably be in Sep- rolling stock could not be obtained to temnber or October. That being so, and take them to the market. In this matter the supplies we have jnst obtained only the department are not up to date. The being sufficient to take us tip to the end requiirement% are becoinfing very great and of June, it would he necessary to have a nothiin appears to have been done du- short session of Parliament, say in Jtune ing the past twelve months to increase or July' . for the purpose of granting the facilities for triicking of live stock. supplies for the first part of the next With such anl establishment as we have financial Year. In order to obviate that, at Midland Junction it should not take wre are asking for a supply for the months vecry long to turnm out 30 or 40 stock of July. August, September, and October. trucks. 1 hope this matter will receive If Parliament dlid meet in Junue or July urgent attention and that some Provision in the ordinary way, a Supply Bill would will be made to meet the requirements of come down and would be endorsed by the the trade. passing of anl Appropriation Bill in the Question p~ut and passed. same wvay as we haove done to-ight. T Bill read ni second tinie. beg to move-

In Committee, etc. That the Bill be now read a second Bill passed through Committee without time. debate, reported without amendment. anid the report adopted. Question put and passed. Read a third time and passed. Bill read a second time. 3662 362[COUNCIL)

In committee, etc. finch water supply would take only a few Bill passed through Committee with- minutes to dispose of. out debate, reported without amendment, The Colonial Secretary: It would take and the report adopted. longer than that. Read a third time and passed. Hon. T. F. 0. BRIMAOE: We have been doing Government business all the day, and private business ought now to receive some consideration, especially hav- ADJOURNMENT - STATE OF ing regard to the urgency of the matter BUSINESS. I have brought forward. To-morrow, I The COLONIAL SECRETARY (Hon. suppose, we will adjourn the House for a .1. 1). Connolly)': I intend to move that long term, and no expression of opinion the House at its rising adjourn till 10.30 will be obtained on this motion. It seems to-morrow morning. to me that the Colonial Secretary is try- Eon. T. F. 0. Brimage: Cannot you ing to gag members by not bringing this clear the Notice Paper first? mnatter before the Chamber. The COLONIAL SECRETARY: I The Colonial Secretary: I object to the think we have done a fair thing, seeing hon. member's statement that I am trying that we have been sitting since 2.15. It to gag members. is hoped that to-morrow we may be able Ron. T. F. 0. BiIIMAGE: I say it, to get through the business of the session, and I mean it. and then adjourn for a fortnight. Pro- The Colonial Secretary: I ask that the vided that can be done, it is proposed to han. member withdraw that statement. prorogue Parliament by proclamation. The PRESIDIENT: I do not think that It -has been usual in the past to prorogue it is offensive. in another form, hut it is considered that The Colonial Secretary: Well, I do. on this occasion it will be more convenient The PRESIDENT: If the Minister to prorogue by proclamation. It is in- feels that it is offensive I am sure that the tended, therefore, on the eompletioT of honi. member will withdraw the remark. business to adjourn, probably for a week. Hon. T. F. 0. BRIMAGE: I do not Hon. W. Kingsmill: Have you no fixed know whether it is offensive or not, but hour for the adjournment? that 's my opinion. The COLONIAL SECRETARY: Per- haps we may not be able to get through rrhc PRESIDENT: I am afraid that the business, and in that case we would the honi. member cannot hear me. If the have to meet again next week. 1 beg to Minister personally feels it offensive I move- am sure that the lion, member will -with- That thre House at its rising do ad- draw the offensive ternm. yours till 10.30 am. to-morrow. Hon. T. F. 0. BRI-MADE: I do not Ron. TU.F_ 0. BRIMAGE: The Col- want any statemenit I make to be offen- onial Secretary might have given hon. sive. I say what I mencai. members some idea oif the Government's The Colonial Secretary: That is not intentions in regard to the motion dealing satisfactory . The lion. member repeats with tie Bullfinch 'water supply. the statement and says he means it,. The Colonial Secretary: I had hoped The PRESIDENT: I say again, that to reach it to-day. I do not think the hon. member can hear Hon. T. F. 0. BRIfA GE: The M1in- Mae. Will the hion, member withdraw the ister gave me to understand that it would expresssion because it is offensive? be brought onl to-day. BRIMAGE: I withdraw The Colonial Secretatry: A~nd I hoped Hon, TU.F. 0. the remark. that it woiuld. Hon. T. F. 0. BRfIAGE: I hope The Colonial Secretary: There is no that the 'Notice Paper will be cleared. justification for thle lion. Mlemuber making There are only a eonie a? motions on the that -rmark at all. I wvas hoping to get Paper, and that dealing with the Bll]- ihat motion Onl to-day, and was Just as, [2 FEBRUARYi. 1911.] 36161 anxous as the horn. member to have it QUESTION -EDUCATION, disposed of. MODERN SCHOOL. Hon. T. F. 0. BRIAGE: I would M.PRICE asked the Minister for have been (illite satisfied if the Minister Edueation,-1I, Is the construction had miade at statement regarding the mat- of the Modern School sufficiently ter, and giveii the House some encourage- advanced to allow of intending ment that there would be a reduction in scholars receiving proper tuition therein tile price of water at Bullfinch. during the first termi1 2, Is it a fact that Question 11111and passed. Mr. Brown, when receiving scholars on the opening day, notified them that it will Houise adj~ourned at 11.9 p.m. be fully three months before the school is in proper working order? 3, If so will steps be taken to provide that scholars Shall receive further tuition in a subse- qulent term so as to compensate for any lost time?~ The MINISTER FOR EDUCATION replied: 1, Yes. 2, No. 3, Answered by No. 1.

QUESTION-POLICE DISTRICT, NORTHERN. Mr. HEITMANN (without notice) asked the Premier: Has be yet received Thursday, Lhid February, 1911, information concerning Olhe postponed questions asked by myself in reference to Faun the expenses of Sub-Inspector Sellengerl Papers presented...... 3063, 8700 Questions. Education, Modern School------30 The PRLEMIERI replied: I furnished a Police district, Northe rn------363 reply to two postponed Fills - Health Council's ameudomnts...... 3063 the questions two Public 11ibrr: Muem.. and Art Gallery of days gro. WesternAustralia,Council'. mendments 306.5 Transfer of Land Act Amendment, Council's Mr. 'Heitznann: I wits not aware of amendments...... 3685 Loan, P2,100,000, 2R.. Corn,, 35...... 306 that. Appropriation, all stages ...... 3879 Parliamentary Allowances, 2a., Corn., a. . ,T supply 1911-12, all stags ...... SO Cemeteries Act Amendment, 2.., Corn., Its. SW8 BILL-HAJIH. Pernianeut Reserves Rededication, 2B.. Corn., Council's Amendments. Roma Catholic Churich Property, 2n'. Corn.,' Consideration resumned from the prey- Fertflisers ad Feeding Stuffs Amendcmnt, ous day tun postponed requnested amiend- 2t., Corn., 3B ...... 3898 men ts. Fisheries Act Amendment, 2.., Corn., 3E. .3698 Jury Act Amendment, 2a., Corn., I . . .. 3700 Mr. Taylor' in the Chair; the 'Minister Fremnantle Hartbour Trust Act Amendment, 2a., Corn.. Sn...... 3202 for 2hlles in charge of the Hill. Game Act. Amendment, 2., Cow., 3a. .. 3706 No. 52-Clause 22.-Strike out this Loan Estimats. General discussion concluded, votes discussed...... '.....3671 clause. Coronation ceremonies, the Premier's invitation 3877 Supplementary Esiae...... 3W9 Tile 'MINISTER FOR MINES: When Bills returned from the council...... 30am originally the Bill was before the Chamber tile member for North Fremantle bad. The SPEAKER took the Chair at 4.3(0 suteceded ill inserting a clause providing, p.m., and read prayers. for exemptions from vaccination. Thi, clause had bee,, struck out in another place, and he proposed to ask the Chamn- ber to agree to the striking out of the PAPER PRESENTED. clause. He had discussed this matter By thle Minister for Mines: Report oil with thle member for North Fremantle in~ estigations into the Compositionl Of the and it had been agreed between them that gases caused by blastingy in mines. the matter had been sufficiently debated