TIMECODE NAME Dialogue 00.00.01 NARRATOR This is the BBC Academy Podcast, essential listening for the production, journalism and technology broadcast communities, your guide to everything from craft skills to taking your next step in the industry. 00.00.14 JAS RAO Hi and welcome to the BBC Academy podcast with me, Jas Rao. This week we're finding out how to develop a comedy from the star and producer of the new BBC Three series Man Like Mobeen. There are four 20-minute episodes in series one and you can watch them on BBC Three's website. Mobeen's a young Brummie played by Guz Khan, who's also the creator and co-writer of the series, and the executive producer's Ben Cavey, managing director of Tiger Aspect Productions. They both appeared in event in BBC hosted by Joe Godwin, director of the BBC Academy. Joe started by asking Guz about Mobeen and how he managed to develop the character whilst being a school teacher in . 00.00.55 GUZ KHAN So, Man Like Mobeen, the chronicles in a life on an inner-city Brummie lad. Working Class. And the biggest thing for me is... this character came around when I should have been lesson-planning. When I should have been taking my job very seriously. But, news reports, especially in the mainstream media, around Small Heath and in Birmingham in general, are so negative an divisive that I thought... if we can take a character that people have perceptions of, flip it on its head, have him talking some real stuff, some genuine stuff that people can connect with, that might be handy and thankfully the BBC understood the importance of that and we're here now. So yeah. 00.01.28 JAS RAO Mobeen was created partly to explore some stereotypes that Guz came across as a teacher, but also to make use of funny things he'd spotted about people he knew. 00.01.37 GUZ KHAN It ties in with media representations of inner-city Birmingham areas. Also, conversations that I was having at school. Very basic things around race, Islamophobia, social class, and I thought, if I can do it through the vessel of this character, will it work with people who have these views outside of school. That's really where the premise of this came from. Poking fun at stereotypes, at generalisations. I didn't put too much thought into it. I just knew this character reminds me a lot of my friends who make me laugh all of the time. What happens if they had a voice? What happens if they had the ability on a public format to speak. That's where the character came from. 00.02.17 JOE GODWIN Did you do him as stand-up, or in sketches in stand-up? 00.02.20 GUZ KHAN No, I just turned around on my Samsung, whilst I was marking books, did some silly clips and then didn't think anything else of it. So it started pretty organically, yeah. 00.02.30 JAS RAO Mobeen first appeared on social media. Guz uploaded clips he'd filmed on his phone and they started getting noticed. 00.02.36 GUZ KHAN Just the ability to create content. Put it out there without the need for the BBC, Channel 4, Sky, whatever it is, and have the people validate what you're doing. Looking back on it now is a very powerful thing. Because there are no constraints. No-one is www.bbc.co.uk/academy 1

checking over your material. No-one's saying, we should tweak it, we should change it. The fact that it's very raw... if you can get it right at that stage then when you come to developing longer-form things it makes things feel much, much easier. So for me personally, having feedback from the public... and what was nice was people from all different demographics at that early-stage were like, wow OK... It's resonating with people and it's a new way for people to get into the industry as well. 00.03.19 JAS RAO For producers like Ben Cavey social media has changed talent- spotting. He says performers no longer have to risk 10 grand taking a show to the Edinburgh Festival in the hope of getting noticed by a TV talent scout. 00.03.31 BEN CAVEY It's completely changed and actually it's really interesting. Not only Mobeen started with self-shooting but I know that This Country, another BBC Three hit. I think that probably is now the best way to pitch work. People are getting really used to click on this link and watch. I guess technology's hugely important in that. You'll remember in the old days we used to have to send each other DVDs and letters and VHSs. 00.03.57 GUZ KHAN What's a VHS, brother? 00.03.59 JOE GODWIN It's like a wax cylinder but more modern. 00.04.02 BEN CAVEY I think it's going to have an impact across the whole of our business. Even at the other end of it... you've got a big star like Jack Whitehall who I work with. He's launching his own YouTube channel now. Because he wants to be part of that and reaching out directly to people and to have that platform, as well as his other movie and TV platforms. 00.04.22 JOE GODWIN And commissioners and producers can be risk averse. The world's already talking about you, which helps reduce their nerves about whether this might work. They've seen you. They've seen what people say about you. It's actually quite helpful that you get that head of steam before you go near a broadcaster. 00.04.37 GUZ KHAN Yeah, I think also based off what Ben's saying, in terms of hearing that figure... Traditionally, if you want to be seen and if you want to get into this industry, you have to spend £10,000, or thereabouts, of self-investment on creating a show. I know for myself personally that a couple of years ago I couldn't take £10,000 worth of finances meant to go towards living costs, on a chance, on a dream. I think what social media has allowed you to do if you are working class and you genuinely don't have a penny to your name to devote to an Edinburgh show or whatever it may be. You can do it for free on your phone through social media. I think it has opened up a whole different kind of foray for people who don't have the finances to access at that point. I think that's very important. 00.05.22 JAS RAO In terms of what producers are looking for in new comedy ideas, Ben says Mobeen's hit a sweet spot in its depiction of life in Small Heath, on the outskirts of Birmingham. 00.05.32 BEN CAVEY Social realism comedy almost, as I would call it, is starting to hit in a big way. This show's very much part of a wave of that. It's really working for the younger demographic. I think actually if you'd gone back to the pilot, I think there was still a focus of what people www.bbc.co.uk/academy 2

want is a big, broad, silly comedy. Probably something along the lines of Bad Education, which I made previously. So I think both the audience and commissioning started to move. When we made the first pilot, what was great was we just tried a load of different things. I was very proud of the pilot. It was probably a bit goofier and sillier than what Guz would have liked to make. Because Guz was kind of ahead of his time. 00.06.18 JAS RAO The Mobeen series features some prominent female roles. Not just Mobeen's mum, but also his younger sister, Little Axe. In reality, Guz said it was his older sisters who played a big part in his childhood. 00.06.30 GUZ KHAN I was pretty much raised by Mum and my two older sisters and they are quite a bit older than me. So my relationship with what you traditionally see on television from specifically minority female characters is very different. I grew up getting battered every day. Pretty much. I wanted to show strong, female characters who were dominant in the household. That's something that you very rarely see on TV. It was also very easy for me to kind of write towards that from being a teacher and being surrounded by teenage girls, who are the most gangster creatures on the face of the planet. They're the scariest thing of all time, teenage girls. I've got that experience. But also, a big shout-out to the whole team. We'd seen a lot of kids and they were great actors. They were orating what we wanted them to. As soon as we saw Duaa Karim sat there. She was raw, she was natural. Very much an element of myself. She hadn't really done too much before, or thought about doing it before. She's more interested in singing. But she was so natural and kept it so real that I knew straight away her personality, grew-up in inner-city Birmingham, she'd be perfect for the part. 00.07.43 JOE GODWIN She is a very good actress. You do sometimes hear people saying it's very hard to cast actors and actresses from ethnic minorities. She's from Birmingham and she's a very, very accomplished actress. Has she done a lot before? 00.07.57 BEN CAVEY No. I don't think she'd done anything before. She's from Wolverhampton, she's local, and I know casting committed to finding people from the local area. Which made a massive difference because obviously she was bringing that culture with her. It sounds so simple and like what a casting director should do, but very few people deep dive in the way she did to find this cast. 00.08.22 JAS RAO As with casting, when it comes to finding locations the production was equally true to its subject. Much of the filming took place in Small Heath, which Guz says was critical to making it authentic. 00.08.33 GUZ KHAN There was no point filming Man Like Mobeen, about a character from Small Heath... such a specific accent, such a specific style... and then going and plonking him in London because it's easier to do. I've got to big-up Ben and I've got to big-up the whole team for that, because they facilitated making sure that we did it in Small Heath. By no means is it easy to film in and around these areas, because they get such negative media attention. I understand why someone who lives in Small Heath, when they see a camera crew coming in, is going to think it's a documentary about terrorism or extremism. Not a comedy that they like, at least. 00.09.07 JOE GODWIN Production companies are full of reasons why it's easier to film in London or Manchester. It's very important that we get more stuff www.bbc.co.uk/academy 3

being made here in Birmingham. 00.09.16 GUZ KHAN Absolutely. Just one more thing as well... For the people of Small Heath to see it filmed in their area. It's such an important thing. That's my street. That's my road, y'know. 00.09.24 JOE GODWIN It's still pretty unusual to see Muslims portrayed in comedy, with notable exceptions such as . What reaction have you had from fellow Muslims about the way you've portrayed the community and Islam? 00.09.37 GUZ KHAN I was mad worried at first. Like you said, it's one of the first shows with Muslim leads, with minority leads as well throughout the whole show. I was apprehensive about how it was going to be. But I think the big thing to understand is that, often when people talk about the Muslim community, Christians, whatever minority it might be, people act as if it's homogeneous group. The big feedback I've had is, brother why are you doing swearing on television? Why are you talking about tits on television? I've had this kind of feedback but they understand it's based in realism. So, at the end of the day, for me, telling the truth is a fundamental tenet. So if we're going to tell the truth about people in the community and what they're like, let's do that. Let's keep it honest. We hate it when people throw slander or false accusations against us. You can't let them blag it and make out it's perfect. It's real. It's real life. 00.10.32 JAS RAO Guz co-wrote the show with a more established TV writer, Andy Milligan, who surprisingly has written for Ant and Dec for 12 years and co-wrote their autobiography. Joe asked about how they work together. 00.10.42 GUZ KHAN It was quite a long process but we wanted to ensure that the writing felt real. Ben said this right at the top as well. The assumption is it has to be a gag-a-second. Laugh, laugh, laugh, laugh. But the thing we loved about writing this is we could take time. Speaking to the director and the producer, thinking about a scene and taking people through a journey feels much more real. When the jokes do come, it's so awkward that the humour comes in. The tension, the performance, the way it's shot, as well as what's being written. 00.11.16 JOE GODWIN The gags aren't punchline, stand-up gags are they? They're part of real conversation and character. 00.11.23 GUZ KHAN Yeah and that's a big thing we wanted to concentrate on. We wanted the whole show to be so realistic that you felt like you'd fallen into someone's world. The same thing happened with the writing. The pilot we did, Man Like Mobeen, was very much gag heavy. It's fine. People really liked it. They thought it was funny. But all of us felt if we wanted to talk about the kind of things we have done, from arranged marriage, to terrorism, to racism, to social class, you have to afford that the right level of respect really. I think it's a key thing. If you're just throwing in gags you tend to lose the meaning of what it is you're talking about. 00.12.03 JAS RAO British comedy's never had big enough budgets to pay teams of writers, as often happens in the States. But as Ben explained, teaming Guz and Andy Milligan just worked. 00.12.11 BEN CAVEY He is a true collaborator. What I've also really learnt is America has this wonderful thing where they have lots of money. They can pay www.bbc.co.uk/academy 4

eight people to go in a room and to collaborate and make an amazing script. We don't have that much money. What I've tried to build... I must by the way... I didn't introduce Andy to Guz. His agent Debby Allen did and she must get full credit for that. But what we try to do now throughout out work at Tiger is build small groups. Small, affordable groups. Because great comedy always comes from collaboration. Building that team so you have different skills within that team. Different personalities that are going to display everything to make the perfect script. I think that's the biggest part of my job now, really. 00.12.55 JOE GODWIN And Guz, on the writing, how did you do it? Did you both sit in the same room and write? Or did one of you write an outline, the other scribble on it, send it back, talk on the phone. What was the process? 00.13.06 GUZ KHAN Yeah, getting it right initially was tricky because we both hadn't written together. It's getting to know each other. What makes things very easy is if you share the same perspective on an issue, you can then write, and openly discuss how we feel, for example, about the far right. How would the far right feel about this? I think that balance about being with someone you can collaborate and work with is very, very important. I think, if anyone is new like Ben just said there, it's a constant process, right? You don't write a script and then, here you go this is my script. You work on that every single day, all of the time. Right to the very end. There are jokes and facial expressions that we only found out once the camera was up. But having a strong basis of what you want to talk about is fundamental. Working with Andy is always a pleasure. 00.13.55 BEN CAVEY I also, just because it's a top tip. I'm always amazed when I hear about TV shows that don’t have a rehearsal week. Olly the director is an amazing director on this show. But those reads. The days in the rehearsal room. Sometimes it's just hard to afford them. But they can be transformative for a comedy. The stuff that can be found in the room on that day, in terms of additional lines or additional thoughts about characters is crucial. 00.14.21 JOE GODWIN As we've seen, Man Like Mobeen has used comedy to look at some pretty gritty issues. Everything from racial profiling to arranged marriages. Why was it important to have scenes in this BBC comedy that have an edgier undercurrent? 00.14.37 GUZ KHAN What's very important is we live in quite divisive times. When I say that, I don't mean mainstream, I don't mean people who are living their daily lives. I mean, when you switch on the television and have a look at mainstream news, or have a look on your social media feed. People tend to gravitate to news that just applies to them and their view of the world. It's really dangerous. I first discovered this as a teacher. Kids would have a social media feed built on algorithms. Whatever they click like on, or whatever their friends are sharing, that's all they see. If you are a 15-year-old, working class kid and everybody around you is racist, or homophobic, whatever it might be, you will then, like a sponge, take those issues on. For me, I wanted to create a television show that took an issue like this... the far right, extremism, Islamophobia, racism, classism issues... and say, look, we can talk about it, have a laugh. Because the truth is, I think everyone will agree, if you can look at something and laugh about it, how long can you continue www.bbc.co.uk/academy 5

hating it for? If we've got people who live in these bubbles, through comedy discussing and having a look at the things they hate, and the things they live their lives by, comedy's such a powerful tool for that. 00.16.03 JAS RAO So if you want to work in the world of comedy how do you get in? Joe asked Ben for his story. 00.16.08 BEN CAVEY I was just super lucky. I went to a school, Repton in Derbyshire, where I was surrounded by like-minded people and we could just play together, work together and put on shows together. Then I went to the University of Manchester where, again, a group of like- minded people were putting on shows and shooting stuff on cameras. That's all these people wanted to do throughout my life. Just make stuff. All the courses I did didn't really mean anything. What meant a lot was all those people I met. They were contacts for life. After I finished university, the free money stopped. You're going to have to work now. Which was probably the best thing that happened. And I got a job at a place called The Agency, who looked after writers and directors. And I worked reception. In those days what was great was you could read all the post. I learnt a lot very fast. I learnt all the names of all the big directors, all the big writers, all the big channel execs. I saw how much things cost. But also I positioned myself as a guy who would read the scripts. I read and I read and I read. Someone just really took a shine to me. She offered me a job at Channel 4. The wonderful Juliette Howe. I worked as an assistant there. Then I worked helping to develop the scripts and she invested time in me to help me get even better. Then I went and did the thing of really learning what production was... I went to Holby City and I worked extremely hard for a year- and-a-half on a show that went from 12 episodes a year to 52 episodes a year. So that was how I learnt production. Nowhere do you learn that better than on a long-running show. 13 years later I'm now managing director for Tiger, which I never expected to happen. 00.17.53 GUZ KHAN Don't ever be afraid... it doesn't matter if it isn't the entertainment industry... whatever you're doing... to get in. Get your foot in the door and give it a go. Just for myself, I'm very blessed the way things have gone. But on the flip side of social media, there are a lot of people who want money straight away. If I hold up this product, am I going to get paid? Worry about the craft of making people laugh first. How that works. 00.18.18 JOE GODWIN Add learning. 00.18.20 GUZ KHAN Exactly. That is fundamental. I'm so glad I was a teacher and didn't go straight into comedy because it taught me that learning is everything. Learning is fundamental. 00.18.30 JAS RAO Learning is fundamental. That could be our motto here at the BBC Academy. Thanks to Guz Kahn, and Ben Cavey, and Joe Goodwin for hosting and Teresa Bogan for producing that event. Remember, you can watch Man Like Mobeen on BBC Three's website. Also, thanks to Jack Burgess and Charles Miller for producing this podcast for me. From me Jas Rao thanks for listening. 00.18.50 NARRATOR You've been listening to the BBC Academy podcast. If you want to find out more about this topic or to hear previous shows search www.bbc.co.uk/academy 6

online for the BBC Academy. 00.19.00 MUSIC 00.19.06 END OF RECORDING

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