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STANFORD UNIVERSITY

PROJECT: Bob Murphy Interviews

INTERVIEWEE: Payton Jordan

Robert W. Murphy, Jr.: [0:00] Hello again everybody, Bob Murphy here and a very special chapter in Stanford sports today because one of the dearest friend I've ever had in my life and one of my great pals, Payton Jordan, is with us. Payton, this was scheduled long before you hit your little speed bump a week or so ago. So we'll tell the folks about that, but as we start doing this, I think of you and I sharing the better part of the last 50 years telling stories to one another. Laughing with one another. Laughing at one another. [laughter]

Murphy: [0:38] But here we are to recap this. Tell the folks about your little speed bump, you're doing fine, you look great, things are gonna be fine.

Payton Jordan: [0:46] I'm sure everything will be fine, I had a slight bump in road, had a little lump on my neck. And they found out it was a very rare cancer and we had to do a little cutting and we'll be doing some radiation and in no time at all, I'll be back up and at them.

Murphy: [1:00] They didn't give you a face lift, too, because you're looking so pretty here. [both laugh]

Jordan: [1:05] They kind of knit my nerves on one side a little bit, but I'm going to be OK.

Murphy: [1:09] We're going to have fun talking about this, we're in no hurry, we're just gonna kind of ramble on. Born in Southern California, you were a Southern Californian guy all the way. Talk about those early years a little bit.

Jordan: [1:20] I came out of the town of Pasadena and we had a great tradition there of people who loved sports. We all took part in athletics most of the time and I had idol that I thought a great deal of, Charlie Paddock, the world's fastest human, who was my p.2 inspiration as a young pup. Thus, I became vitally interested in my sport of track and field as well football and other high school athletic events. Track and Field became the major thrust in my life.

Murphy: [1:50] As you go older you ended up at USC, you played football there, you were also a great track and field athlete, your time as a Trojan, Dean Cromwell. Boy, going back to those years, there were some wonderful things happening down there.

Jordan: [2:04] I had probably two of the greatest coaches you could have asked to have. Dean Cromwell and Howard Jones were probably known at that time as the premier coaches in America for track and football. So I was blessed to have good high school coaches and very, very excellent college coaches.

Murphy: [2:20] Now Payt, as you got out of school, we're talking into the '30s now and coming up on the late '30s and early '40s, gosh, I was a little bit younger and I remember the guys going off to war and going into the service and all that. After getting through SC, with a great career at USC, all of a sudden the Navy and how life changed, can you talk about that a little bit?

Jordan: [2:41] I'm always impressed with how much we learn when we went into the service. I happened to go into the Navy Air Flight Program, the V5 program they called it, we were very fortunate in that we had great people, lots of coaches were involved, lots of ex-athletes were involved, and as a result it was a second college education for me. I came out of there knowing a lot more than I would have known had I gone direct out of the university into my profession.

Murphy: [3:12] Talk about that a little bit more. It always seemed to me as a young kid, and even now as I look back, that the navy skimmed up the really top guys. They were looking for pilots that could fly airplanes off of aircraft carriers in the Pacific and I remember St. Mary's pre-flight because they had a great football program over there that was part of the pre-flight program. I remember you were over there and I remember Franky Albert was over there and just names come to me like Dale Gentry and Ed Mansky. Great names, All-American football players from all over the country. Great p.3 bunch of guys. Kenny Casanega from Santa Clara and people like that. Talk about that a little bit.

Jordan: [3:49] Nello Falaschi from Santa Clara, one of the great football players of all time. That was a great group of people, I happened to be fortunate enough to play during that period with Frankie Albert and Vic Bottari of Cali, one of the great all-time football players from the University of California. It was a great moment in our lives to have the opportunity to pursue additional years of our career in athletics. We learned a lot, we enjoyed a lot, we compete a lot, and as a result there were many things we learned that we didn't get in college that taught us to be better administrators and better coaches when we went into the field later on.

Murphy: [4:27] I'm not sure a lot of the young people can understand it now. Of course, there's difficulties in the world and there have been ever since World War II, we thought that was going to be the end of all wars. It was the start of a lot of them, I suppose. But you talked about great coaches like Howard Jones and Dean Cromwell. At some point in your life, a seed was planted that you wanted to be a coach. You just had something in your inner being that had you destined to be a coach. When did you start feeling that?

Jordan: [4:54] I believe it was in high school. This sounds kind of strange. Even before high school. In 1932 my mother knew that I liked athletics. I was running in junior high school. During the junior high school sports that we did in Pasadena, we had five junior high schools so the opportunities were great. [5:13] The 1932 Olympic games were in Los Angeles. I just was excited about a the idea that they were having this kind of a thing in an area nearby. My mother took me. Paid 50 cents for the ticket to get me into the meet or the competition. I saw the great runners take part. Ralph Metcalfe and Eddie Tolan and Simpson and Saling and all of those old names that you'll remember. Babe Zaharias, the great woman athlete of the era.

[5:44] At that moment, I was sitting there. I'd been reading in the paper. Dean Cromwell's name, of course was in the picture. There was some Trojans running in track and field and in Southern California, that was the thing you read about most of the time. As I sat there, I turned to me my mom. I don't know why it came out of my little mouth at that p.4 time, but I said, "You know, Mom, I really want to do this someday." Then I thought about it and I said, "I want to go to USC, too, where Dean Cromwell is."

Murphy: [laughing] [6:13]

Jordan: [6:15] Then I thought about it for a minute and I said, "You know, I'd like to be a coach someday." I thought later years, dreams do come true. Those three things were very, very important to me at age 13.

Murphy: [6:32] OK, Payt, let's talk little bit about that. You decided you wanted to be a coach. When did that become a burning ambition? You had the idea. It kind of heated up for you, didn't it?

Jordan: [6:44] I think it was really magnified when I was in high school. About the time I was a junior I had a coach by the name of Carl Metten [spelled out] who was a very, very inspirational fellow.

Murphy: [7:00] I went to school with Fletcher Metten. He was from down there. I wonder if they're related. That's an unusual name.

Jordan: [7:05] It is an unusual name. I don't know that they were related or not. But he was a Pasadenian and a very, very strong personality. [7:15] He grabbed me by the arm and he said, "I'm going to keep my eye on you, young man. You're going to be here every day at the right time. You're going to take care of your academics. You're going to take care of your athletics. If you don't, I'm going to be there to tell you about it."

[7:29] I needed that at that time. I was kind of running from this sport to that sport and doing other things. He directed me a little more definitely toward my specific skills. I was pretty good at football and pretty good at other sports, but track and field was my best sport. He knew it. He made sure that I spent plenty of time on getting things done right for that particular interest.

[7:55] Also, he wanted me to do something with myself besides just go through high school. He talked about college. He kind of inspired me a lot and I liked him a lot. So he became my role model as to wanting to be a coach. I decided right then and there that, "I p.5

want to be like this fellow. I want to be a coach." That was my beginning and I never will forget or cease to be very, very grateful to him. For years, until he died, I would write him each year anything that happened in my career. I would always wish him a Merry Christmas and say, "You're a part of this, Coach."

Murphy: [8:32] Payt, we jump around a little bit here because my mind gets triggered by some of the things you say. As that fellow influenced you to be a coach and that thing burned within you to be a coach, I have looked through some of your old papers. I looked at a particular letter that Mark Marquess wrote to you. Mark Marquess is the most successful baseball coach ever in the history of Stanford. He takes his team routinely to the College World Series every year. He's won it twice.

Jordan: [9:01] I know.

Murphy: [9:02] He was an incredible player himself, both football and baseball. Hit over 400 one year. Played about three or four different positions in football. He wrote you that same kind of letter. You influenced Mark Marquess to be a coach. How do you feel about that? That's a success story, pal.

Jordan: [laughs] [9:18] It's very, very humbling because I think a great deal of Mark. He's not only a great coach. He's a great person. He's a people person. He knows how to work with young men and how to develop them and how to help them become not just great baseball players but great people. I'm grateful that he thinks I may have had some influence on his career.

Murphy: [9:40] Well, let's talk. As we say, we're jumping around here now. You went in the Navy, St. Mary's Pre-Flight. Where else did the war take you? Talk about that a little bit?

Jordan: [9:47] I really was very fortunate in that I was scheduled to go on an aircraft carrier and they kept saying, "No, you're more valuable here." And like Frankie Albert and a number of others of us, we were assigned at St. Mary's Pre-Flight and spent most of our early years, the first two or three years, working there with young cadets, training them and preparing them to become pilots. And from there I went back to the Midwest p.6

and was a Pre-Flight School, Primary Base as they call it, and spent the rest of my career there working with cadets, doing Navy work, as they say.

Murphy: [10:26] Payton, when you got out of the service,that was exhilaration for a lot of guys, I think, and all of the older guys I've talked to. You're older, I refer to you as "a little older" now, you'll excuse that. I'm catching up with you, though, pal.

Jordan: [10:40] I'm still ahead of you though. [laughter]

Murphy: [10:43] But you get out and you start looking around and you start to say, "Gee, where do I go and what do I do now?" Talk about that period of your life.

Jordan: [10:50] Well, I had come out of college and gone to a small high school, Redlands High School, out in the old Citrus Belt League. On the far side of the valley in the Los Angeles basin. I had two years there before I went into the Navy, so it was a natural thing. The job was still waiting when I came back. [11:12] I had a year there, and at the end of that first year, interest in our team -- the year that I left we'd won the first championship in track and field they had won in 27 years. And then during the war things went downhill a little bit.

[11:30] When I came back the brothers in the families that knew me before all rallied around and we came back and did the same thing all over again. At that time I had the opportunity and was asked if I'd be interested in a job that was opening up at Occidental College. Obviously I was excited about it.

Murphy: [11:51] Payt, before we get there, I want you to describe for all these folks listening now, what that first feeling is when you get into coaching and you first experience success. You've got great kids who are giving you everything they've got. What is that feeling like?

Jordan: [12:08] Well, it's a very emotional thing. It's like family. When you feel success within the family, it's a great elation. These young high school kids at Redlands were very special kids. They were starting their careers in high school and they were interested and excited and enthusiastic. And just open as the dickens to any kind of leadership, and p.7

encouragement was all they needed, because they could take off and fly with their emotion. [12:37] That was, to me, the most exciting part of my first coaching experience. How much they wanted to learn, how much they wanted to be helped, and how much they appreciated the help that they got. And I always remember that. I knew that we all liked to be stroked, and we all liked to be appreciated. Win, lose, or draw we all want to be appreciated for giving our best.

[13:01] And that has been kind of my creed. I like people to strive to be Number One. But I want them to realize that I love them just the same if they give their best, win, lose, or draw. And the high school kids showed me that emotion and that attitude so vividly that I never forgot it and I've used it throughout my whole career.

[13:23] Of course, I can say that each of my coaches gave me much of that understanding too. Particularly Dean Cromwell, who was a master of "Hi Champ!" and we all believed it. We could be in a room, 20 of us, and none of us would say, "Hey, he's conning us!" We each thought that we were a champion. A little sugar and a little compliment is a lot better than a negative comment.

Murphy: [13:48] That comeback from the athletes and the old coach fuels the fire and the heart and the mind, doesn't it?

Jordan: [13:57] It does. I'm invigorated every time I'm around a group of young guys. Because they bring so much to the table, and they give you so much opportunity to see something happen. You don't have to do a lot. If you say the right thing you can -- just not realize how far a kid can go, if you let the door open and push him a little bit.

Murphy: [14:20] Payton, you went to Occidental. And Occidental did not exactly have a reputation for track and field. It did when you got there.

Jordan: [14:29] Again, we were very fortunate. We had a group of young men -- and young girls, but we weren't in women's track at that time -- but the enthusiasm for Track and Field became quite exciting at Occidental. We would pack the stadium with 11,000 people for every meet we had. [14:49] We could go head to head with anybody and the nation and unfortunately there was only one team we couldn't beat when we met them p.8

and that was USC. But we could go against Kansas and we could go against Arizona, we could go against Stanford, we could go against UCLA. We'd hold our own and we'd probably beat them most of the time.

Murphy: [15:09] Now who are some of those? McMillan, do I remember? I remember great runners, great middle distance runners, great guys.

Jordan: [15:17] We had some of the great runners of that period. Early on was Bill Parker, one of the great quarter milers in the history. 45-5 he upset Herb McKinley. He anchored our mile relay team against George Rhoden, an Olympic Gold Medalist, an Olympic Champion. To win the mile relay and the Coliseum relay as the second fastest ever in the history of the sport. [15:44] Then along came Bobby McMillan who was second in the Olympic Games, equal the Olympic record of Josy Barthel from Luxembourg. Then Johnny Barnes went to the Olympic Games, a great half-miler, was a national champion. Both boys were national champions and national record holders in the mile and the 800 meters.

[16:07] Then along came Bobby Gutowski, the world record holder in the pole vault. And there were a ton of kids there that were right on the edge of being that good. They called them the Little Giant Killers from Occidental, and it wasn't accidental. They worked, they paid their dues, and they were very very competitive.

Murphy: [16:29] Payt, that was such an electrifying atmosphere in Track and Field in those days, and the early days of the Fresno relays and the Modesto relays, and all of a sudden that orange and black -- I love Occidental's orange and black because I went to San Mateo, orange and black, "we honor, and emblem of loyalty" and all that. [16:45] But suddenly, Occidental! It wasn't just SC, Stanford, Cal, UCLA. Occidental was right there with the big boys, in those big meets, and everyone was there. Tell the folks -- we don't see much of that anymore, that was an electrifying atmosphere in those meets.

Jordan: [17:01] It was amazing how the team unity and team spirit, and "one for all" attitude paid off. Nobody was a star, nobody thought they were more important than anyone else and the least gifted would run on a relay team and think that he was just as p.9 gifted as the gifted, and as a result the team itself became stronger and better. [17:25] The confidence level went up, the spirit was great. The college was absolutely ecstatic, the student body was enthralled with everything. As a result there was a spirit and enthusiasm that permeated the whole Southern California area. For a small college to do this was unbelievable.

Murphy: [17:46] Now, all of the sudden there was a call from, was it Al Masters who called you? For track and field? Jack Weyerhaeuser had retired?

Jordan: [17:53] Yes, Al Masters through alums in Southern California made it known that the opportunity was available for me if I wished to consider the job at Stanford. Jack and I had been very good friends for many years. We were competitors against each other in college. I loved him, I liked him as a man, I appreciated his as a competitor, and I admired him. [18:18] So before I answered anyone, I called and I said, "Jack, I want to know something. Are you really retiring, or what's going on? I want to know, because I'm not going to step in to the shoes of someone I respect unless it's OK." And he says, "Payt, I'm leaving." He didn't want to tell me whether he was fired, he didn't want to say that, didn't tell me whether he was doing it on his own volition.

[18:42] He said, "I'm leaving, I'm going with Hewlett Packard." And so I assumed that, at that time, that was a choice that he was making. I knew nothing more than that, and I couldn't get any more than that from him. Jack was a proud man. He said, "You take the job, you'll do a great job up here." So, I listened to the opportunity that they offered and I decided this was something I would like to do. I admired Stanford. I always had. Even though I was a Trojan. I respected them. I knew Dink Templeton very well. My father and Dink and Rick Templeton were good friends. And so I had always known the families and I respected what they had done and I thought it was an opportunity that would be silly to pass over.

Murphy: [19:32] Payt, let me interrupt you right there. You mentioned SC again and I know you turned that job down a time or two. Before you took the Stanford job, had you had an offer from SC. Had they come to you at all? p.10

Jordan: [19:44] Well, I had. In 1948, I had a meet with Dean Cromwell, who was still coach at USC and he was my coach and really a mentor that I admired greatly. He told me, "Payt, I'm going to retire." He said, "You should consider maybe moving to USC." And I looked at him and kind of smiled. And he said, "No. I'm serious. I think I'm retiring this year." And so I didn't think much about it. I thought well, Coach Cromwell. There's no one that can replace him. But shortly thereafter I had a phone call from the athletic department and the president of the university talked to me and he said, we would like to have you consider replacing Coach Cromwell. And I said, well, that would be an honor but I just can't do it. And they said, you can't do it? I said, no.

Murphy: [20:44] It was almost like an order, wasn't it?

Jordan: [20:46] Yeah. I said, I have a great group of loyal young men and people like Bob McMillan and Johnny Barnes and Bill Parker and all these fellas been so loyal to me. I just can't do it. And they said, well, it's a great opportunity. You're missing an opportunity of a lifetime. And I said, I know but my loyalty has to go back to the kids. So that was the first time I didn't do it. And a second time came along and that wasn't the time either because I had Bob Gutowski and some of the others still there and I said, "No. I can't do it."

Murphy: [21:24] But the Stanford offer sounded good. You and Jack Weyerhaeuser were on great terms and I remember Jack went over to Hewlett Packard and enjoyed it. And I really believe in. Jack, of course, was a dear friend of mine, too. And I think he really wanted to be out of coaching then. And it wasn't. Al Masters was a little difficult. You had your trouble with Al cause you had some budget trouble with Al. We'll probably get into that later.

Jordan: [21:46] Oh my.

Murphy: [21:47] You came up to Stanford and you immediately changed the entire approach to track and field. I mean, when you arrived on that campus, all of a sudden people were talking about track and field being a major sport, going back to the old days with Eric Krenz and Harlow Rothert. I mean, back into the 20s. Stanford had a great p.11

reputation in the past. Then it had fallen a little bit after the war. You were the one who was going to bring it back. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Jordan: [22:16] Well, I don't know I was the one who was going to bring it back but I wasn't going to change a great deal other than try to upgrade the showmanship. Try to create and atmosphere of unity within the team. I asked for and got a wonderful private dressing room for the track team. Got a special arrangement where we would have all kind of memorabilia in the locker room and records and plaques and pictures and names on lockers.

Murphy: [22:49] You had a little show biz going, didn't you? And I'm saying that in the most flattering way. You know that.

Jordan: [22:54] I believe that people like to be entertained and I think sometimes we forget that you can do something to entertain people. You can bring color and excitement and add to the greatness of the athlete himself by making him important. We added names. The first time names were ever put on any kind of uniform. Now it's a commonplace thing but it was a unit that added interest. It created people's interest to see the name on someone they were watching run so they could root for them.

Murphy: [23:26] Payt, this is the 57th?

Jordan: [23:31] It was 1956.

Murphy: [23:33] '56. OK. Into '57, '58, track and field meets became major productions in those days. I mean, and you had a remarkable group of supporters, timers and officials. They were real productions. We went into Stanford Stadium.

Jordan: [23:48] I even grabbed you by the arm, too. I got you into the action. [laughs]

Murphy: [23:51] You made me an announcer. I didn't [laughing] last long, but you made me..

Jordan: [23:54] I made you announce, for sure. Actually, we decided that people need to know more that was going on. Just watching it wasn't all that was going to make people p.12

interested. We put together those big signboards, you remember, where we had names. The minute someone did a performance, the mark that he did went up.

Murphy: [24:14] Yeah.

Jordan: [24:15] We had lights on the field. We had flags on the field. We had banners. We brought the pom pom girls out. We brought the band out. We tried to create an atmosphere of excitement and interest as well as great competition. [24:28] The athletes themselves loved it. They got excited about it when they had their names on their uniforms. They became very proud. I always felt that you wore your uniform with pride. I wanted it clean. I wanted it neat. I wanted the shirt tails in. Everybody thought kind of John Woodenisms. How you put your socks on is important. I thought the way you looked was important. I still feel that's important.

Murphy: [24:53] Payt, this is a good time. We'll do a little sidebar here because I always felt that the dual meet was the very essence of track and field. When they lessened scholarships, all of a sudden the dual meet went passe. It was gone. [25:10] I remember my old buddy, Bob Steiner, of course, our dear friend and Brutus Hamilton and the big meet and doping the big meet. We would sit there all week. We'd look at the 220. We'd look at the 440. We'd look at the shot put, and if we could get a third in the javelin. The intrigue in a dual meet, can you talk about that a little bit? I think track and field really lost something when the dual meet became passe.

Jordan: [25:34] I think it was a mistake to give up the dual meet. It's like taking a football team and putting them on the field and say, "You don't have to score. Just run up and down the field." Or in basketball, you just go up and down the floor and pass the ball. You don't have to score.

Murphy: [25:46] Yeah.

Jordan: [25:47] If you don't have a score, there's not a lot of interest. So it's important that you create an interest in how the meet is going, point by point. We used to build a program as you were part of it. We would have the dope sheet in there, by event. People would be writing down, "Oh boy, this race is five, three, one." And the next race, "Boy, p.13

this is five, two" and so forth. It was beginning to be a real seesaw during the meet. People got involved. [26:12] You've got to keep people involved. You can't just let them sit there passively. We've kind of lost that. When we lost the dual meet, we lost the essence of track and field for the fan.

Murphy: [26:24] I think so. I just always remember when some little guy could come in, just staggering, and finish third in the mile and pick up a point when you thought that he had no chance to score. That one point could be the difference in the meet.

Jordan: [26:37] Yeah, well, we used to dope the meets out. I had a little two-miler. Johnson was his name. I didn't list him on the list. It made a difference. He would win the meet if he won or got a place in the two-mile. I didn't list him because I didn't think he could. [26:55] But in the process, I'm writing things down, he says, "Coach, you haven't put the score down for the two-mile yet." I said, "What do you think?" He says, "I'll score a point." I say, "That's good enough for me." I put it in and he scored a point and we won the meet. [laughs]

Murphy: [27:09] He did. He did. [laughs] Oh, those were great years. We're going to talk about three big time events. Because when you came to Stanford, that was a big time event. You were there three years. Then all of a sudden, the Olympic trials. 1960. Olympic trials at Stanford? Tell me about that.

Jordan: [27:30] We had an opportunity to bid for the Olympic trials. I asked Al Masters if he would OK my making the bid. He said, "Well, yeah." He said, "How much is it going to cost us?" I knew that was going to come. I said, "Well, it will cost us some money. But we will get expenses back and we can help the Olympic program. We can help the athletes. I think we should try to put on a good meet and do something for the sport." [28:01] He said, "OK, let's go." We did and Eunice DuPrau, one of the great people in the history of Stanford athletics, stepped in and just did everything to help me. All the department, Chuck Taylor and Bob Young and all the group said, "Well, this is a heck of an added chore, but we'll make it work." p.14

[28:24] With all that cooperation, Mel Nelson and the corp yard and all his crew, Kissell and all the group out there, they pitched in and put the facilities in beautiful shape. We had one of the great meets of all time. It's the largest crowd ever in the history of Olympic trials - 125,000 people. And the people that came to watch it loved it. The athletes loved it. And everybody was satisfied with the gate receipts. It paid for itself. It gave money back to the Olympic Committee and it was a very huge success for our sport.

Murphy: [29:04] Where were the Olympics going? Was that Rome?

Jordan: [29:07] Yes. 1960 was in Rome.

Murphy: [29:09] And what do you recall about those Olympics and all those guys that ran and jumped and did all that stuff at Stanford?

Jordan: [29:15] Well, I recall two things. Two of our athletes were involved. Chuck Cobb, our great hurdler and my captain in 1957 qualified as an alternate in the high hurdles. Ran 13:07, one of the fastest in the world and one of the fastest of all time. And then Ernie Cunliffe came through to win the spot in the 800 meters and go to the Olympics in the 800 meters. So those were two big, big things for us. Not only were we having the Olympic trials but two of our athletes were right at the top of the heap. And Jerry Winters, our great shot putter, was fourth. The best shot put distance in history for a Stanford athlete at that time. 59' 11 1/2". Just missed it by one place. So we had two men that were alternates and Ernie made it. Plus, that was a great Olympic Games in Rome. One of the historic games of all time.

Murphy: [30:16] Payt, you and Marge came up. When did you move to the ranch out in Los Altos? You got two beautiful daughters and wonderful family. Tell the folks about the ranch.

Jordan: [30:26] Well, when I came up. I'm kind of a country boy. I was raised in the country and I like ranch life. I like the open country and Bill Althouse, my good friend and your good friend, baseball entrepreneur of all time, was a realtor and I said to Bill, I would like something out in the country. I don't want to live in the city elbow to elbow and look into someone else's window or trip over somebody all the time. And he said, p.15

"Well, I'll take you around and show you some stuff." He showed me a couple places in. Then, one of the football players that was with the 49ers had a place in Los Altos. And he showed it to me and it looked like a junk heap and I said, I don't want that. And I said, you gotta show me something in the country so he took me over into the Sunnyvale Road area in the little area right above Rancho Shopping Center.

Murphy: [31:28] There were still a few fruit tress in those days.

Jordan: [31:30] Oh, that was all apricot orchards and a few houses on lot of ground and he found two acres of ground that I just thought was perfect. And an old ranch house and I fell in love with it and Marge loved it and the kids loved it and we moved in and that was home for us for 42 years.

Murphy: [31:48] When did the chickens show up?

Jordan: [laughter] [31:50] My father passed away and he'd been involved in chickens all his life. He was a rancher, a farmer type guy and when he passed away, my brother says, "Payt. We gotta do something with these dumb chickens." He hated them and I liked them.

Murphy: [laughter] [32:07]

Jordan: [32:09] And I said, well gee, you can't get rid of the chickens. He says, "Well, heck I can. I'm not keeping those chickens." And I said, "OK. You send me a trio of each of the various." They're all game chickens and beautiful birds. Vizard gray and roundhead and brownred and clarets. So he sent me three of each and that was the beginning of my bird farm.

Murphy: [32:33] I used to get some eggs once in a while.

Jordan: [laughter] [32:34]

Murphy: [32:35] I used to get some of those brown eggs. Loved them.

Jordan: [32:36] Oh, they were good brown eggs. p.16

Murphy: [32:37] Yeah. The brown eggs.

Jordan: [32:38] They were healthy. My neighbors loved me. I didn't eat many eggs so everyone in the neighborhood got eggs and my fruit orchards were very popular. Everybody had fruit all the time and vegetables.

Murphy: [32:50] That was fun. Gosh, what great old days. Now, we've talked a little bit about the Olympic trials and what an epic that was but what that did was set the stage for major events at Stanford. All the dual meets. We did some at twilight. We did some different things that had never been done before but it all pointed toward a thing called the USA Russian Track Meet. Boy, did that open the curtain. Talk to me about that. Your old pal Gavriel Korobkov. We have to explain to younger people because they don't realize the world was literally at war in those days. It was Communism against really the United States. [33:31] The relationship around the world was just awful, and the breakthrough was the USA-Russian track meet. You and Gavriel Korobkov of the Soviet Union somehow broke through all the political and hateful barriers of the time, and it was one of the greatest events of all time. You've got to tell them the beginning of that story.

Jordan: [laughs] [33:50] I will. First, I want to go back and just say you passed right over it like it didn't have any meaning at all. You were pretty much responsible for the idea of twilight meets, you know. And we talked about, "Hey, we could do something that would be really exciting. Let's try some twilight meets--people coming down on the train from San Francisco." [34:13] We could get them to have dinner or snacks and things and come to the meet. Then go home or have their meals afterwards. It could be a part of their day's activity. You were the instigator on that, so I want to say that to you now and not try to have you pass that off on me.

Murphy: [34:31] Thanks, Coach. Thanks. Oh, we did! And we did a little tailgating. We used some of that old football-tailgating thing for the twilight meets, and there was a little barbecuing. I think there were some beverages.

Jordan: [34:40] Oh, I'm sure there were some beverages. [laughter] p.17

Jordan: [34:42] A little red wine, as they say. Actually, it was a very good thing. It brought a lot of crowds out, and it was an exciting moment. To get on now to the point of the Russian meet, which was one of the great track meets of all time in my mind, not because I was the one particularly involved, but because of the impact it had on the world.

Murphy: [35:07] It was a world event. You just said it.

Jordan: [35:10] It was not just a special event for us at Stanford. It was a special event for the world because it was the Cold War period. As you said, there was a lot of friction, a lot of suspicion, a lot of misunderstanding, and a lot of hate. This was an opportunity that might have a role in creating some understanding. [35:35] I'm not altruistic particularly, but I do feel that sports have a way of opening doors, healing wounds, and creating understanding. We were in bad trouble at Stanford. We'd had a nine-loss season, no wins as you remember, and we were in debt pretty badly.

Murphy: [35:55] 1960 that was. Yeah, Jack Curtis was having a hard time.

Jordan: [35:58] No, that was Jack Curtis. Yeah. Not Jack Christiansen.

Murphy: [36:03] No, Jack Curtis.

Jordan: [36:04] Yeah, Jack Curtis. It wasn't particularly his fault. It was just that it was a bad period for Stanford.

Murphy: [36:10] Yes, circumstances were bad. The admissions were difficult, the emphasis, the drive wasn't there, and money.

Jordan: [36:15] The money. The money. That period, as Dick Gould said earlier on, we had some lean years in the fifties and sixties. It really wasn't until you got there that we started getting the idea of promotion, and that period was tough. As I said before, it made it hard for coaches to really, really succeed on a regular basis. We all tried our best, but sometimes it was a little difficult. We had lean years as you [laughs] remember. [36:47] But this was an opportunity that opened the door for a consideration for the Russian/United States meet. The way it came about is we had had such success with the p.18

Olympic trials in 1960. Al Masters and I were very good friends. He was a tough fiscal manager, but he was a very fair man and a very strong believer in track and field.

[37:13] So I had a friend in court, and he came to me. He says, "Payton, we did pretty well on that meet for the Olympic trials. Do you think there's any way we could do something in track that might get some money in the till for us? We're in trouble." I said, "Al, there's one opportunity that I think exists that we might pursue."

[37:37] I offered up the idea that a Russian meet versus the United States at Stanford could be a draw. He said, "Well, how would we go about that?" I said, "Well, I'll tell you. I really don't know other than I do have a close relationship with Gavriel Korobkov." I'd been there in 1958.

A rather interesting sidebar story here, in 1938 I was an athlete at U. S. C. as you'll remember and participating in track. I got a letter from a Russian. The name "Gavriel Korobkov" meant nothing to me then; but it was a letter from Gavriel Korobkov which I later forgot, and the letter asked me: [38:02] "I'm a sprinter in the Soviet Union; you're a sprinter in the United States. Could you tell me how you train? Would you give me training?"

[38:39] Athletes are pretty generous, and I had no reason to hide anything --- I wasn't doing anything special, and I thought to myself, "Well, I'll put down what I do and give him an idea how I train, and what days I did which, and how much I did of each thing" and I sent it off. I didn't think anything about it, but 22 years later I go back as coach for a meet with Soviets, the first team to go into the Soviet Union for an international meeting since 1912, and I arrive to the airport in Moscow with our team and our entourage. A gentlemen comes up to me and puts his hand out, and says, "Mr. Jordan, I'm Gavriel Korobkov, the coach of the soviet union, welcome." And I looked at Gabriel and said, "Very happy to meet you, Mr. Korobkov." He said [imitates Russian accent] "Now, we go to the hotel in my car. " and I said--

Murphy: [39:34] You do good with Russian. p.19

Jordan: [laughs] [39:35] Yeah, I'm speaking Russian now. He speaks pretty good English, I speak very poor Russian. But anyways, I'm kind of mimicking the way he's talking to me.

Murphy: [39:46] I love it, keep going.

Jordan: [39:49] He says, "Payton, we must do this because we have much to discuss for the meeting." I said, "I don't usually want to leave the team--I like to travel with the team." He said, "But you've got assistants, you've got managers, you must not let that bother you. They'll be OK." [40:05] I said, "Well..." So I went over and talked to my assistant coach and a couple of the others, and I said this is what he wants to do and "I'll meet you at the hotel."

[40:13] We went off to the Leningradskaya Hotel, in the center of Moscow, and as we're driving down the road, he's shifting gears, and [makes engine revving noises] and I'm sitting there thinking, "I hope we make it." He turns to me and says, "Payton?" and I said, "Yes, Gabriel?" He said, "Do you remember letter from Russian?" and I said, "Well, yes. I only got one letter that I ever remember." I looked at him and thought to myself, "Oh my God, it's Gavriel Korobkov." He said, "Hmph. Interesting, huh? I write you letter 1938, today I Soviet Union National Coach, you American National Coach."

Murphy: [41:00] What a story, oh boy.

Jordan: [41:01] I said Oh my gosh. Well that bonded us; we were close from then on. During the meeting, we had a great meet. It was a close meet, but it was a great meet. We ultimately won the men's division and they won the women's, which was not unusual.

Murphy: [41:17] Well, the women looked a little different then.

Jordan: [41:19] They talked deep, too. [both laugh]

Murphy: [41:22] I remember Irena and Tamara Press. They looked like they had taken a lot of "vitamins."

Jordan: [41:28] Yeah, I'm sure they were vitamins. Deep voices and a little beard. p.20

Murphy: [41:35] Payton, I want you to tell the folks about - and I've recorded this elsewhere - I remember coming out when they first arrived, and they came out an Angel Field, and that was the first time we had seen the Russians. I mean, it was a thrill - it was a curiosity just to see them and I sat out there with our dear old pal, Dink Templeton, and Dink gave me a running commentary (like he usually did) but what a thrill to just see those people then. Tell the folks a little about that.

Jordan: [42:06] I don't believe there's ever been in history a turnout for a practice of several thousand people. They jammed the stands in Angel Field.

Murphy: [42:15] And around the track...

Jordan: [42:16] And around the track, they couldn't get enough of it. They had lines at the ticket booth to get tickets, out in front of the old VAC.

Murphy: [42:26] 150,000 people over two days saw that meet. Wow.

Jordan: [42:32] Actually, 155,000 paid admission, but there were another 20,000 freebies that we gave to rest homes, handicapped people, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, all kinds of youth groups, we filled up the end area with them. So we had over 170,000 people in the stadium for two days.

Murphy: [42:55] We can't talk about all of them, we don't have the time or space, but I just want to talk about these two and whoever else you have in mind, but Igor TerOvanesyan and [fakes Russian accent] I cannot speak Russian as good as you but I remember you had to lengthen the long jump pit for Igor.

Jordan: [43:14] I had to lengthen the long jump pit for Igor. Igor was a great, great jumper and Ralph Boston and he were absolutely amazing. The crowd went crazy when the two of them got on that runway and went down there and jumped. Foot for foot, they were back and forth.

Murphy: [43:31] Oh my gosh, just incredible. Valeriy Brumel, a high jumper; I remember going down after he had jumped to seven-feet-something; it looked like the pole vault! We had never seen the high bar that high. p.21

Jordan: [43:43] I couldn't believe he had jumped that high, but as he went up, I looked at the jump, and I was looking across the field towards the east bleachers and it was like someone was flying out of the stadium and then the crowd just came up in a wave with a tremendous roar and he went into the pit and raised up his arms--

Murphy: [44:09] I remember that, we have pictures of that.

Jordan: [44:11] Looks like an eagle. And it was one of the most electric moment in sport that I can remember in a long, long time.

Murphy: [44:19] Well the only one that might have gone beyond that is when the meet was over and the Americans and the Russians, arm in arm, paraded around that track. There were a lot of tears in a lot of eyes that day. Talk about that.

Jordan: [44:34] Normally you try to produce the show, you're going to do this, you're going to do that, you're going to march in like this and have it all orchestrated. The minute I turned around, I thought, "Well, it's all over, the song, farewell is ready to be played," and I heard this roar--and I turned around and Ralph Boston and Valeriy Brumel and Igor TerOvanesyan and several of them had gone together and embraced each other and now all these guys were loving and hugging and cheering each other and waving to the crowd, and I turned and walked over to the side and shook my head and I said, "Well, that was a badly planned finish," but then a little old crusty guy behind--Brockman, remember him?

Murphy: [45:18] Yeah, Bob Brockman, wrote for the Examiner.

Jordan: [45:21] Came up to me, had tears running down his face. And this crusty guy never cried for anything. He always had a tough word to say about. He came up to me and said, "Damnit, it's the first time I've ever cried at any athletic event in my life." And I thought then, well.

Murphy: [45:38] And it became a parade and they went around and around the track.

Jordan: [45:41] And around the stadium, and the crowd went nuts and the kids went nuts. It was a moment in history and it solidified the idea in my mind that sports can heal p.22 wounds and repair misunderstandings and bring understanding that make things better in our world.

Murphy: [46:03] Well, we could talk forever about that, but it was an epic - it was an absolute epic - but another big event we have to talk about '68 in Mexico City. You're named the Olympic coach - there's no higher honor than that. Talk about that a little bit?

Jordan: [46:17] I'll tell you, that really is humbling to have your peers choose you to represent your country and major athletes in the Olympic games. Probably is the epitome, as you said, of coaches' careers. I will be forever grateful for the opportunity and forever grateful to the great athletes that were there to help me be the coach that had such a successful year. They say, and I wont' say this, but they do say, that it's the most successful and most recognized Olympic effort ever in history.

Murphy: [47:00] I know that no other American track and field team scored more than that team at Mexico City and I'm not sure that any track and field team since has either, Pay. I think it was the most successful thing, and I do remember that you were very concerned about altitude. So talk about the success as it related to altitude and training at Lake Tahoe.

Jordan: [47:20] Well, the first thing I would like to say is that, when I say this--I don't say it because I think it, I say this because the experts have said it-- this is the most successful historically, from the standpoint of gold medals, silver medals, bronze medals, Olympic records, American records, and world records of any team in history. Those athletes can hold their heads high forever, and I can be proud of them forever. I can say today that, "This is closest family unit of Olympic athletics that ever existed." There's no question in my mind. Everywhere you go, people say, "Oh, that's the best, the most close team." [48:08] And Madeleine Manning, one of the great women athletes, the Olympic champion in the 800, we had a reunion a few years back, and she got up and sang "Friends" song, beautiful song, acapella. There wasn't a dry eye in the audience. And when she finished, she said, "Look at us. Today, after 32 years, look at the love that we have for each other." p.23

Murphy: [48:36] That is wonderful.

Jordan: [48:39] And I thought to myself, "This is what athletics is all about and how lucky all of us are to have been a part of it."

Murphy: [48:44] Yeah. Bob Beamon literary jumped out of the pit that day. Talk about that?

Jordan: [48:48] 29 feet, 2.6 inches. And he wouldn't have done that had it not been for his old compatriot, one of the great champions of all time, Ralph Boston. He was in deep trouble. Ralph came to his and said, "Change your step or you're not going to make it." He changed his step and he flew out of the pit. And Ralph said, "That was stupid on my part, wasn't it?" But it was great indication of the unit of spirit that existed between each and every athlete.

Murphy: [49:17] Can you talk about that, because it's interesting and we're talking about all kinds of things in this kind of situation now? Tommie Smith and John Carlos held up the fists on the winner's podium. Lots of political and racial tensions in those days. For the younger people, who don't recall all this, can you talk about that a little bit? [49:36] I thought it was amazing. I thought it was miraculous the way you just kind of glided through that and held that team together. That was a very unified track and field team as an Olympic team. And, as you said, they were the most successful of all time.

[49:51] And John and Tommie -- I saw John not long ago and John's a fun loving guy -- just begged me to say hello to you. He loves you. And Tommie, I don't see very often. But John, I do catch every once in a while with Steve Simmons and the Olympic guys, the television that we do from time to time. Talk about that a little bit.

Jordan: [50:12] John and Tommie are misunderstood many times. That was a not a fist in the air for the Olympic Games, or against America, or against the athletic establishment. That was a social situation. It was a thing that had nothing to do with competition. It had everything to do with society and the concerns and their feelings and of the concerns of society at the time. [50:44] So, that never became a factor between the athletes, the coaches or team members. We were all aware that we were facing tough p.24

obstacles. We had unrest. We had people that would have liked to have created distrust or created chaos for us. But the team was too close. We had too many people that knew each other for too many years to let anybody get between our affection and love for each other.

[51:13] We respected each other. We held together. We wouldn't allow anything to deter the goals that we had set in our lives. It was a silly thing for anyone to think that any of those of men would ever give up their life's dreams and their life's goal that they had worked so hard for.

Murphy: [51:45] And, Payt, that started right at the beginning. I mentioned Lake Tahoe earlier, and you were concerned about altitude at Mexico City. When you're team gathered at Lake Tahoe in that high elevation, I think that's where all this crystallized. You caused it.

Jordan: [51:43] Well, I think it was important. We had felt for a long time that we were facing some obstacles that were going to different at high altitude. And so, we lobbied the Olympic Committee to allow us to come together for the first time and go to an altitude and duplicate the problems that we were going to face. Train in it, live in it, and think about it and become accustomed to it and familiar with it. [52:11] That was first time this had ever been done. And also, it was my feeling, and the feeling of my staff, that we would run this whole program just like it was going to be run in the Olympic Games - to the second, by the heat, by the semifinal and by finals, so that they knew exactly how it would feel. We would train in that atmosphere, and maximize our capacity to handle the light air. We brought in a breathing expert, Stowell from the East, and every kid was taught how to breathe properly in light air.

[52:48] We would lie down and have breathing sessions. This sounds silly, people would go, "Oh no, you didn't go that far!" We raised the iron content in the ladies, so that they would have more red cells. We did the same with the men. We did everything we could to try to upgrade the things that would be deficient at altitude. We worked on the psychological, physical, and organic disturbances, and tried to duplicate them before we went there so that it would be easy to understand, easy to cope with, and we would be successful. p.25

Murphy: [53:21] And boy were you successful, wow.

Jordan: [53:22] Yeah, hopefully. I had so much help, and so many people contributed so much. My buddy Bill Barman, I said, "I need your help, come on down." I asked Sam Bell and I asked a bunch of my other good coaching friends; Higgins from Oklahoma State, and a few others, "Please come in and give us a hand." [53:41] They all said, "Hey, anything!" So my staff became gigantic. Unofficial coaches that weren't on the staff came in and just gave time like mad for this.

Murphy: [53:54] But it was truly a family.

Jordan: [53:56] It was a family, and I owe all of those guys so much for helping me.

Murphy: [54:01] Payton, this is so much fun. We talked about the Olympic Games and the Russian track meet. I want to now change it a little bit and get into some of your great guys. Don't limit it, please, to the ones I put forth. [54:16] I'm just going to throw names at you, just because I want to get your reaction and a comment or two, and I think everybody else does too. Peter Boyce. Boy could he jump over his head or what? Peter Boyce, and one of the nicest young men I've ever known, Peter Boyce.

Jordan: [54:31] Peter Boyce; a great high jumper. One of the types of athletes that says very little but makes it happen. He's a straddle jumper, one of the last of the great straddle jumpers, seven foot three, school record holder, Olympian, low key, quiet, modest champion. Always very humble, very coachable, and a very, very appreciative young man. ...One of the kinds of people that you say, "Gee, if I had a son, he'd be one of them." And I had a lot of sons in this business.

Murphy: [55:12] How about Terry Albritton? Now Terry was a puzzle, and we put him the Stanford Hall of Fame just a couple of years ago. He came over from Hawaii, and just put on a fabulous floor show for us. And he threw it way over 70 feet and he was something else. It was interesting, as we remember Terry Albritton I want to go back even further, way back in the '50s when Stanford had three shot putters. [55:37] It was historical in those days, three shot putters over 50 feet. Most of the schools never had a shot putter over 50 feet. But Otis Chandler, Lou Davis, and Norm Norse. And if I p.26 remember right, Norm Norse was left handed. Do I remember that right? Three over 50, so there was a heritage in that shot put.

Jordan: [55:56] We've had a great heritage in the weight events at Stanford as you know. Probably as many discus champions as any school in America, probably as many javelin champions as any, and probably as many shot put. We've been up in the top of the elite group as much as any school in history. [56:15] So what you're saying is not something that most people don't know, but it's a proud heritage and "Dink" Templeton can be given credit for a great, great deal of this. He was one of the masters of technicians for our sport.

Murphy: [56:32] I always remembered Dink, and I made reference to it earlier on one of these tapes, that he had his radio show at 9:15 on KFRC with that gravelly voice, and he would talk about Payton Jordan's doing a miraculous job at Stanford, and you've got to go see these track and field meets, and see the wonderful job he does. You couldn't imitate his voice, I'm trying real hard. Or the way he would think, either. And Dink, he was a guardian angel, he was a counselor, he was something very special.

Jordan: [57:01] You're right. Gravelly voice, as you say. Dink was a very very special person. He could have run circles around me, but he never ever, in all the years I was there, second guessed me. He was always there and he came in the first couple of years that I was there, and he would sit up in the stands. [57:24] I would go over and say, "Dink, come out in the field with me." "No, no, no, no, no, it's your team."

[57:29] I said, "That's not what I'm saying--come on out and stand with me, we'll visit."

[57:33] "No, no, I don't want to but in."

[57:35] I said, "I need your help."

[57:38] And he'd look at me, "No, you don't need my help." [laughter]

[57:41] I said, "Dink, come on down. Take a look at my discus thrower." He'd come down, and he'd laugh and talk, and make a remark, and give me a little clue. I got a lot of information out of him. He didn't like the idea that I was thinking that he was butting in, p.27

but I never had that clue because I admired him so much. I respected his technical abilities, and we became very close friends.

Murphy: [58:07] Well we wander off a little bit here every once and a while, but Terry Albritton, he was quite a shot-putter, could have been an all-American football player. Terry Albritton could have been just about anything he wanted to be, but he would go out in the poppies. He would go out and graze with the animals. [laughter] . He was, is still a piece of work. But my gosh, he was leading the pack in the shot put.

Jordan: [58:28] Terry is one of the greats champions that Stanford ever had in the shot put. Not only that--big, kind of gruff, misinterpreted many times. He has a heart that's very soft. He's a very sensitive person, but a great person--a guy that has a lot of depth to him, and a man that I greatly enjoyed coaching. We had a real close relationship, a good personal father-son type relationship. I remember we were at the National Championship in Louisiana, and he'd been out in the shot put competition. He came back, and he was just crestfallen, and he looked at me and he said, "Coach, I've gotta get on the 'roids--there's no way!" [59:16] I said, "What do you mean?"

[59:18] He said, "Everybody out there is on steroids. I can't even come near them if I don't start taking steriods."

[59:24] I said, "Terry, you take steroids, you're out of here."

[59:29] He looked at me, and he said, "Well I can't. Those guys are all animals."

[59:33] I said, "You're a pretty good-sized guy. You're going to be OK, just give it time. We'll work on the weights; you'll get stronger. We'll go work on your speed; you'll get faster. You'll catch up with them, don't worry."

[59:45] He looked at me, and bless his heart, a few years later, he broke the world record--71 ft 6.5 inches, and he did it the right way. For that, I will always be proud of him. He is a true world-record holder. p.28

Murphy: [60:05] Payton, we're jumping around, of course that's our style. Years before you got there, Bud Held was a national champion. Stanford had a great history in the javelin. You had a boy by the name of Tom Colby. Boy, did he come on.

Jordan: [60:18] Yeah, five foot seven, 147 pounds.

Murphy: [60:22] I couldn't believe him, because I used to throw baseballs. I would see this guy throw that javelin and I would say "Why can't I throw a baseball like this guy can throw that stick?" I mean, he was something.

Jordan: [60:32] Tom Colby was a left-hander, as you know, and probably the best left-hander we ever saw. For the size, we were in Oregon, and this tells you the kind of athlete he was. He walked over and he says "Coach, tell those guys at the other end of the field in the high jump area to get out of there because I am gonna dump one in there." [60:52] Well, that's over 260 feet. [laughter] I looked at him, and I said "Tom, do you know how far that is?"

[60:58] And he said "Yeah, I know how far it is. I stepped it off, I know."

[61:01] I said, "You think you're going to put one in there?"

[61:04] He said, "I said I'm going to put one in there; tell them to get out of there. I'll hit one of them."

[61:09] So I went over and I told Bauerman, I said "Bill, can you get your officials to move the guys out of the landing area at the high jump because my guy says he's going to dump one in there."

[61:19] He says, "Oh, bull!"

[61:21] And I said, "He's a pretty good little thrower; he's throwing about 250."

[61:26] He said, "He's not going to throw it 260, that's 270 out there almost."

[61:30] I said, "Trust me; he said he's going to do it." [laughter] Well, he let one go. It went 262 feet five and a half inches. Boy, people were scattering everywhere. p.29

Murphy: [61:40] Ol' Bill took note of that? [laughs]

Jordan: [61:42] Bill said, "I guess you're right."

Murphy: [61:46] Oh yeah, Colby, he was a beauty, and then I remember Jack Christianson. Jack Chris was our dear friend. I mean, you and I both loved Jack Christianson. He had two great receivers. He had Tony Hill on one side and James Lofton on the other. Chris was never too sure about Lofton, because he was more of a track guy. He's in the NFL hall of fame now, but he was more of a track guy. [laughs]

Jordan: [62:11] More yards received than any in history.

Murphy: [62:14] Yeah, but Chris thought he was more of a track guy. [laughs] I used to kid him about that, but James jumped it over 26 feet.

Jordan: [62:20] You know the football coaches used to have that problem there. [laughs]

Murphy: [62:25] Boy, was James something though, huh?

Jordan: [62:26] Yeah, James was absolutely unbelievable. He's one of the greatest athletes Stanford ever had. Not only was he a National Champion in the Long Jump, he could run the 100 meters in about 10.4, the 200 in 20.5, the quarter in 46.1, and jump around 27 feet pretty regularly. Of course he was getting pushed by a little guy by the name of Darren Nelson, 25-10 or so, but James was one of the great athletes of all time. In fact, you remember he anchored the men's football group that broke the world 440 record: 39.7. That was Darren Nelson, Gordy Banks, and Kenny Marjam, and James Lofton.

Murphy: [63:15] Quite a group there. Now you mention Darren. It was interesting. Darren, with everything he's done in football, and he never got hurt in football. He got hurt in track. Tell the folks about that. Remember that day? It kept him out of football a whole year. p.30

Jordan: [63:29] Oh, I hated to hear that. Here was a kid that was true football all the way around, but a great track man to. Here he is giving everything he had for us. In fact, he went over to take this last jump because we needed it. He didn't have to do it. He did it because he wanted to be a part of that team effort, and darn if he didn't rip that thing. The knee was so bad, I thought, "Oh my gosh, I'll never see another football player." But he rehab'd and came back and became another thousand-yarder and one of the great track and field and football players in Stanford history.

Murphy: [64:06] And a fixture in the athletic department now as associate athletic director and our great great friend. Back to field events, discus, the two names that pop up in my mind, and you might have others--but Dave Wheel obviously one of those guys and Bob Steckard. Don't ever forget Bob Steckard.

Jordan: [64:22] You can't forget either one of them. They're two of the great discus throwers in Stanford history. Dave Wheel was a giant of a man. When he was in his prime, he weighed about 290. He' about six ft seven. He would put that platter out there with anybody. He had a best mark of 205 feet, about as good as anybody in the history of Stanford. Bob Steckard was right on his heels with about 210 feet. And both of them NCAA champions--Wheel a three-time NCAA champ, so theory were a pretty good pair. Certainly both great kids.

Murphy: [65:01] I want to make sure we're not forgetting anybody, but we don't have time to talk about everyone and the book. . .

Jordan: [65:05] Don't forget one of the greats of all time.

Murphy: [65:07] Tell me coach.

Jordan: [65:09] Ernie Cunliffe.

Murphy: [65:10] Ernie Cunliffe; half-miler. All time great, and he could run up to a mile too, but he could run that 880 they used to call it and I used to love that race. Oh, that 880--oh big time. Talk about that. p.31

Jordan: [65:20] One of the greatest middle distance runners in history: 46.6 in the 800 meters, an Olympian, world indoor record holder in the thousand yards. Ran the closest to the four-minute mile until Duncan McDonald came along and was our first sub-four minute miler. So here's a great, great athlete, and one of the finest young men I ever coached.

Murphy: [65:48] You mention Duncan and I think of Kailua, Hawaii, and Oahu. That's where he's from, and he would run the half mile all the way up to the 1500, and he was very flexible. Boy, was he a talent, and he ran for a long time.

Jordan: [66:01] He went further than the long run, he went clear up to the marathon. He was the greatest stretch runner in terms of short-distance half to the marathon of any runner in Stanford history. You had the great Don Kardong, who was fourth in the Olympics in 76, and you had McDonald of course, who broke Prefontaine's American record in the 5000 meters, not bad running and you have two great runners there. And then you have little Anthony Sandoval, number one marathoner in American in 1984.

Murphy: [66:40] I remember Tony Sandoval. I always thought he ought to be riding in the third race at Bay Meadows. He looked like a jockey, didn't he?

Jordan: [66:49] I would like to say that these men are the result of great leadership and coaching by my late and loved associate Coach Marshall Clark. Every time I think about him I kind of break up because he was such a wonderful man and one of the great coaches, distant coaches, in American history. A lot of people don't know how good he was, because his career was a little bit shorter than some of them, but he would rank right up there with Bill Bierman and the rest of the touch notch distance coaches.

Murphy: [67:24] And it's interesting too, Payt, because when you mention Marshall, I start thinking about the advent of women sports. Now Joe Rich came in as athletic director in 1972. [67:36] And one of things Joe Rich, one of the first things he did, was pick up the ball and run with Title IX. And he had some vision, for Stanford, and what Standford could accomplish. And there are how many Director's Cups? There's more p.32

Waterford crystal in the Stanford Hall of Fame room than there is in the Waterford showroom in Ireland.

[67:53] A lot of that has to do with women sports. But I think about Marshall and the time he would stand out on that Stanford golf course with cross country runners like Patti Sue Plummer, Ceci Hopp, and Kim Schnurpfeil. People like that. Marshall was a real specialist with distance runners.

Jordan: [68:10] Marshall was a specialist with everybody. He knew how to work with people, he was one of the most loyal persons, with the most integrity of any coach I ever met. He just, he was Marshall Clark, and when he look you in the eye, that's what you got. And his athletes felt that, and I felt that, and he left a legacy that will not be replaced.

Murphy: [68:38] As we talk, I start thinking about other people, Jim Word comes to mind, 440. Jim just came out of nowhere and was one of the great quarter milers.

Jordan: [68:47] Yup. Came out from Columbiana, Ohio. He blazed on to the scene and the third best quarter mile in Stanford history. Has been a very successful person off the field as well as on the field. He was a good leader when he was there, he was a great competitor. Remains a loyal and good friend.

Murphy: [69:10] Payt, let your mind wonder if there's anyone else we should mention. There's hundreds of them we should mention. We obviously can't cover them all but I do want to touch one more point here. It has to do with the budget and the administration. You and I were both part of the department, I remember. I'll never forget the year it went over a million dollars. Now it's somewhere between 30 and 40 million dollars.

Jordan: [69:33] I know.

Murphy: [69:34] Thirty-four sports. Women sports, of course, had a lot to do with that, but it's a whole different ball game now.

Jordan: [69:40] It is a different ballgame. The numbers boggle my mind. We'd play with peanuts, as we say. Now they're playing with marbles. p.33

Murphy: [69:54] Gold marbles.

Jordan: [69:55] Gold marbles. A lot of crystal. We used to paint our own hurdles and repair our own broken cross bars and things like that. Today things have changed, but we have to know that change is part of the routine of the world. [70:20] I respect our period, I respect this period. We had our lean years. But I will say this. That even though in lean years, track and field, dual meets, never once were out of the top ten dual meet teams in national competition in my 28 years. Although we had to climb hard to get to second place a point off of beating USC in Albuquerque, New Mexico, in 1960, for second place. We got a couple fourths, a few sixths and sevenths, and eighths, and ninths but we couldn't quite top it.

[70:59] Now the funding and support system is enough that we can, and do, and should, and will. And with the spirit and the cooperation and the help and support of everybody, why, it's a wonderful thing to see. And it makes me happy and it makes everybody else happy.

Murphy: [71:16] Payt, I've always told young kids, and you and I have done a lot of counseling and had a lot of conversation with all kinds of kids. One of my messages has always been, if you can do what you want to do, and live where you want to live, you're probably way up in the upper one percent of the population of this country. You lived at the ranch, you had the chickens, you did what you wanted to do. I guess you and I, we could have made a lot more money, could have gone a whole lot more places. But doing what you want to do and living where you want to live, not all the bad is it?

Jordan: [71:51] No, and working with the greatest kids in the world is probably the best reward of all. And speaking of great kids, you know we left out -- or you did -- you didn't ask me the question of, and there are a lot of them we didn't ask about. Larry Questad, one of the all time greatest sprinters in track and field history. No man in American track history, believe it or not, ever ran 10 flat and 20 flat in the 100 and 200 meters. There have been those that ran faster in the 100 meters. There have been those that have fun faster in the 200 meters. But only Larry Questad, in America, and only Valeriy Brumel in Russia have run 10 flat and 20 flat in the 100 meters and 200 meters. Larry is a school p.34

record holder in 100 yards at 9.3. He's an Olympian. He's run the 200 meters as fast as any American.

Murphy: [72:47] Now you got me going see. I've got to talk about Bob McIntyre, Eric Frische and Dale Rubin and that relay team. That sprint relay team. We could keep triggering this thing back and forth but I'm glad you got Larry in there.

Jordan: [72:59] Well you have to get Larry in because he is an all time great. One of history's greats. One of Olympian's greats. And that relay team was a fabulous story in that they ran against San Jose state.

Murphy: [73:14] Speed city.

Jordan: [73:15] Speed city with the anchor being Tommy Smith. One of the great sprinters of all time, and Eric Frische, Dale Rubin, Bobby McIntyre and Larry Questad ran for the first time using a new style...

Murphy: [73:34] Talk about that, the baton, talk about that.

Jordan: [73:36] We created a little different type of relay baton pass and I nicknamed it the flip flop. Because the first time that it had ever been done, you would start with it in one hand. You would never take it out of that hand. You would take that, if it was in your right hand you'd take it right hand to the left hand of the next man. The left hand of that man would take it to the right hand of the next man. And the right hand of that would go to the left of the next. You didn't switch sticks.

Murphy: [74:03] No crossovers.

Jordan: [74:04] No crossovers, and thereby we changed forever the style of running for the spring relay. Which is now adopted by everybody in the world as the first time it had ever been done. And we set a world record with it and that created quite a bit of interest. And to have Larry Questad and Tommy Smith go nose to nose at the end of that race and we end up nosing out to win and set a new world record of 39.7 was a historic event and a great accomplishment for us by four great, great kids. p.35

Murphy: [74:38] See, I think about old guys like you and Ralston. Ralston spends that time with Pappy Waldorf over there with those Bears and that camp and Nealy. And you spend that time down there at Trojan going over to Julie's and all those places. Julie's doesn't even exist anymore. The Obradovich guys are all out of there and that's no fun anymore. But to be a part of Stanford history, could you ever have foreseen your life being like it's been?

Jordan: [75:05] No. I've been blessed.

Murphy: [75:07] Marge is your blessing pal.

Jordan: [75:09] I know Marge is my blessing and how fortunate I am. I don't think any coach has ever had the good fortune or the happiness or the rewards of working with such a great group of people. Not only my athletes but my fellow coaches. The people I've known throughout the world and at Stanford in particular. The friends and the relationships there's nothing that replaces those things. They're part of your life and they'll always be with you. But I owe so much to so many.

Murphy: [75:50] Can't say it any better than that, coach. We could do this for a week or so. Like we said at the beginning, we spent most of 50 years talking to one another, laughing with one another and laughing at one another. Here we go again, huh?

Jordan: [76:03] I just want to say lastly that everyone of the athletes that I ever coached, as long as they gave me their best, and they felt they gave their best, that was good enough for me. Obviously I would hope that in our coaching we could help each of them realize being the champion they wanted to be, and that their teams could have been champions that they wanted to be. But we have those wins, we have those losses. But if we give it our best, you are a winner.

Murphy: [76:35] We can't do it any better than that folks. Those are the closing words in one of the greatest chapters in Stanford sports. You're lucky to listen to them.

Transcription by CastingWords