Tuesday Volume 556 8 January 2013 No. 92

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 8 January 2013

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2013 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 139 8 JANUARY 2013 140

The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg): Happy House of Commons new year, Mr Speaker. The Government published our proposals on the Tuesday 8 January 2013 recall of MPs last year, and the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee then published its report in June last year. We submitted an interim response reaffirming The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock our commitment to establishing a recall mechanism and are now taking the proper time to reflect on the Committee’s recommendations. PRAYERS Ian Murray: Happy new year, Mr Speaker. I thank [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] the Deputy Prime Minister for that unvarnished answer. Given that one of the justifications for introducing recall is improved confidence in our democracy, what BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS is his view of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee’s statement: CANTERBURY CITY COUNCIL BILL (BY ORDER) “We are not convinced that the proposals will increase public Motion made, That the Lords amendments be now confidence in politics”? considered. The Deputy Prime Minister: The Committee made a Hon. Members: Object. number of recommendations about our proposals, but Lords amendments to be considered on Tuesday 15 January. equally it accepted that all parties had made a manifesto commitment to introduce some kind of recall mechanism and acknowledged, as I think everyone does, the difficulty LEEDS CITY COUNCIL BILL (BY ORDER) in trying to define serious wrongdoing precisely and Motion made, That the Lords amendments be now determine who should define it and who should set off considered. a trigger for a recall by-election. It is precisely those kinds of difficult dilemmas that we are now trying to Hon. Members: Object. address, because we do not want to resile from the Lords amendments to be considered on Tuesday 15 January. commitment to legislate to introduce some kind of recall mechanism. NOTTINGHAM CITY COUNCIL BILL (BY ORDER) Motion made, That the Lords amendments be now Parliamentary Constituency Boundaries considered. 2. Jim Dobbin (Heywood and Middleton) (Lab/Co-op): Hon. Members: Object. What his policy is on the review of parliamentary Lords amendments to be considered on Tuesday 15 January. constituency boundaries. [135548]

READING BOROUGH COUNCIL BILL (BY ORDER) 4. Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): What his Motion made, That the Lords amendments be now policy is on the review of parliamentary constituency considered. boundaries. [135550]

Hon. Members: Object. The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Miss Chloe Smith): The boundary commissions are continuing with Lords amendments to be considered on Tuesday 15 January. the boundary review in accordance with the legislation that requires them to report before October 2013. CITY OF LONDON (VARIOUS POWERS)BILL [LORDS] (BY ORDER) Jim Dobbin: Yesterday’s coalition renewal document, Second Reading opposed and deferred until Tuesday “The Coalition: together in the national interest”, includes 15 January (Standing Order No. 20). a vote on the boundary change proposals for constituencies. I know that the Minister is to answer, but I would like to know whether the Deputy Prime Minister will campaign Oral Answers to Questions foranovote. Miss Smith: I think that the parties within the Government have made their positions clear on the matter. As the Prime Minister said yesterday, there will be a DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER vote, it will take place, and I suppose that is that.

The Deputy Prime Minister was asked— Mr McKenzie: Does the Minister believe that it is right to redraw parliamentary boundaries on the basis Member Recalls of data from which millions of eligible voters are missing?

1. Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): When the Miss Smith: It is the Government’s intention to proceed Government plan to bring forward proposals on the with the individual electoral registration programme, recall of hon. Members. [135547] which will increase and improve the accuracy of the 141 Oral Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Oral Answers 142 registers we work with. It is really important that we all Miss Smith: There will be a set of penalties that relate continue with the support that there is across the House to those actions. I will be happy to write to my hon. for those proposals. Friend so that he gets the fullest possible detail.

Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): Can my 14. [135560] Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): When hon. Friend guarantee that the next general election will does the Minister expect a national online electoral be fought according to the new parliamentary boundaries registration system to be in place? recommended by the Electoral Commission, and that it will be fought with individual voter registration? Miss Smith: Many Members take an interest in that issue. I do not have a specific date to give the hon. Miss Smith: I think that the answer to my hon. Gentleman. The Government are looking at the matter Friend is best given within the point that there will be and I shall be happy to discuss it further with him. a vote on those proposals, as I think he knows. On individual electoral registration, I can confirm that the Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): We all want a register programme is proceeding as planned, and I am happy that is complete and accurate. The Electoral Commission’s to give him further details on that. recent damning report on the move to individual voter registration in Northern Ireland is extremely worrying, Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): If the yet the Government have decided to speed up the Lib Dems are still voting against the recommended implementation of individual voter registration and to parliamentary boundary changes, should this House remove the safeguards that Labour put in place. not have the earliest opportunity to vote on the issue, All this is happening at a time when local authorities thereby possibly saving unnecessary public expenditure are having to make record cuts, including to the amount at a time when the public finances are limited, and when that they can devote to electoral registration. Given the should such a vote take place? criticism levelled by the Electoral Commission’s report, what extra are the Government considering to avoid a Miss Smith: I am terribly sorry to be boring, but repeat in the rest of the UK of the experiences in there will be a vote on those proposals. Northern Ireland, which could see millions of eligible voters dumped off the electoral register? Electoral Register Miss Smith: I think the right hon. Gentleman is 3. Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): What steps misrepresenting some of what the report says. The the Government are taking to ensure that under-represented evidence from the report is that continuous registration groups are included on the electoral register. [135549] is working for the majority of the population in Northern Ireland. The report notes that many of the key lessons The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Miss Chloe from the experience in Northern Ireland have already Smith): As I mentioned in my previous answer, it is been addressed by the proposals. It also states: important that we ensure that all those who should be “The findings from this research do not undermine the principle are included on the electoral register, including the of individual electoral registration or mean that the introduction under-represented groups to which the hon. Lady’s question of this system in Great Britain will necessarily lead to similar declines in accuracy and completeness.” refers. The Government, politicians, parties, electoral Commission on Devolution in Wales administrators and plenty of others have a role to play in encouraging people to register to vote. The Government are committed to doing all they can to maximise registration, 5. Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): What including among under-registered groups. They are looking assessment he has made of the work of the Commission to modernise the system to make it as convenient as on Devolution in Wales. [135551] possible and are running various sets of data-related pilots to find out how we can best identify unregistered 6. Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): What groups and add them to the register. assessment he has made of the work of the Commission on Devolution in Wales. [135552] Jessica Morden: Does the Minister agree that the annual canvass is a really important part of ensuring The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg): On that under-represented groups are on the register and 19 November, the Commission on Devolution in Wales that any attempts to water down the frequency of the delivered a thorough and clear analysis of the options canvass, or give powers to Ministers to abolish it altogether, for fiscal devolution in Wales. The Government welcome should be avoided? publication of the Commission’s report and will respond formally in due course. Miss Smith: Our current plans for electoral registration do include the annual canvass, which will continue to be Mr Williams: I thank my right hon. Friend for that used for as long as it remains the best way to ensure that answer, and I welcome his welcome for the work of the the register is as complete and accurate as possible. Silk commission. We have an opportunity to enable our Assembly to be truly accountable—not just for the Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): money that it spends by way of the block grant, but for Will the Minister clarify what penalty, if any, will be the money that it raises through taxes, through a partial imposed on those who fail to return an individual devolution of income tax. Surely that would be an electoral registration form? important facet of a strengthened and accountable 143 Oral Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Oral Answers 144

National Assembly. Will my right hon. Friend guarantee Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): Has my that part 1 of the Silk recommendations will be enacted right hon. Friend given any consideration to communities in legislation during this Parliament? that straddle the Anglo-Welsh border—for instance, the Chester economic sub-region, including north Wales The Deputy Prime Minister: I can certainly confirm and Chester—and the impact that this will have on that we will respond in full well before part 2 of the Silk people who live and work on both sides of the border? commission proceedings is concluded. We aim to provide our full response to part 1, about the fiscal aspects of The Deputy Prime Minister: My hon. Friend has further devolution to Wales, by spring this year. identified one of the issues that makes some of the tax recommendations in part 1 of the Silk commission I strongly agree with my hon. Friend’s praise for the slightly more complicated in certain respects than the report, which is thorough and thoughtful. It is radical; devolved tax arrangements in Scotland, principally because it suggests devolving up to about a quarter of total the border area between England and Wales is more money spent in Wales to the Welsh Assembly itself. It populous than the border areas between Scotland and actually goes further in important respects, notably on England. That is one of the things that we are seeking varying income tax rates, than the Calman-like process to address right now in our internal deliberations. on which it was modelled. Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): In the very slim mid- Glyn Davies: The Silk commission recommended that term review, a commitment is given to the Government’s the National Assembly for Wales should become more responding to the Silk commission, as the Deputy Prime financially accountable through being given responsibility Minister has confirmed this morning. Will he give a for raising tax. Does my right hon. Friend believe that commitment that there will be no unilateral reduction this can happen only after a referendum takes place to in the block grant to Wales? secure the support of the Welsh people, even if a firm commitment is made in the manifesto of the party or The Deputy Prime Minister: I think we have done parties that form the next Government? better than that. As the hon. Gentleman knows, back in October the Chief Secretary to the Treasury made it The Deputy Prime Minister: As my hon. Friend knows, clear that we would work with the Administration in the Silk commission has on it representatives of all four Cardiff before each public spending review to monitor parties in the Assembly, and it was a unanimously the convergence or divergence between the funding supported recommendation that the change in income settlements in both places. This commitment has not tax recommended in part 1 should be implemented only been made by previous Governments here in Westminster. once a referendum had taken place. Obviously, we will That is a demonstration of our willingness to respond look at this very closely. We are acutely aware that it to some of the concerns about the future funding represents a cross-party approach within Wales itself. arrangements within the United Kingdom, particularly as they affect Wales. Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): Have the Deputy Prime Minister and the Government considered a floor Local and Central Government Powers to the Barnett formula to ensure that Wales does not lose out? 7. Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab): Whether he plans to examine the balance of power The Deputy Prime Minister: As the hon. Gentleman between local and central Government. [135553] may know, back in October the Chief Secretary to the Treasury made it clear that we would work with the The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg): The Welsh Administration to look at the convergence or, as Government are clear that we must disperse power in is the case at the moment, divergence of funding in our society. That is why we have initiated a historic shift Wales and elsewhere in the United Kingdom. We have away from Westminster to put our counties, cities, towns, also made it clear that while there is a legitimate debate villages, neighbourhoods and citizens in control of their around the future of the Barnett formula, our priority own affairs. I look forward to seeing the final report on remains the stabilisation of the public finances. the relationship between local and central Government from the hon. Gentleman’s Select Committee inquiry as we continue the process of reform. Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): Given the need for change, supported by all parties on the Silk Mr Allen: The Deputy Prime Minister will know that commission, and the Deputy Prime Minister’s enthusiasm, three out of the four nations within the United Kingdom together with that of his party, will he make every effort now enjoy some form of devolution; the one that does to ensure that part 1 of Silk is legislated on during this not enjoy any devolution, effectively protected by statute, Parliament? is England. Will he engage with local government at the right moment to discuss how devolution can be made The Deputy Prime Minister: As I said, we all need to effective through local government, and will he also take a careful look at part 1 and take a collective engage with the Select Committee, which is due to decision within the coalition Government on how we report on this very matter at the end of this month? respond to it. As Ministers in all parts of the coalition have said, it is an extremely thorough and thoughtful The Deputy Prime Minister: I certainly stand shoulder piece of work representing a cross-party approach in to shoulder with the hon. Gentleman on his long-standing Wales, and we will respond to it with similar seriousness critique of the over-centralisation of power in Westminster before the spring of this year. and Whitehall. I know that he has welcomed some of 145 Oral Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Oral Answers 146 the initiatives that we have taken. They do not provide Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab): all the answers, but they are significant steps in the right If the Deputy Prime Minister votes for the Welfare direction. The retention of 50% of business rates by Benefits Up-rating Bill tonight, he will be voting to local authorities is probably the biggest act of fiscal make millions of low-income families worse off. Will he decentralisation in England for several years. The city confirm that two thirds of the people who will be hit by deals, in my view, are a radical template of a wholesale the Bill are not lying in bed with the curtains drawn—which, transfer of responsibilities, ranging from transport and anyway, is no way to speak about unemployed people—but capital investment to skills and training, to local authorities. are actually in work? The question that the hon. Gentleman’s Committee is posing is whether that can be done in a more systematic, The Deputy Prime Minister: It is obvious that a neat and formalised way, and I am certainly open to measure that deals with both out-of-work benefits and look at any suggestions in that respect. It is the tradition tax credits affects people both in and out of work. The in this country to do things in a slightly more informal challenge for the right hon. and learned Lady and her and uneven way, but his Committee’s report will be colleagues is to explain to this House and the British taken very seriously by us in government. public, first, why she could support a 1% limit on the pay increases for doctors, nurses and teachers in the Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Can my right hon. public sector, but not take exactly the same approach in Friend set out what powers have been devolved from this area, and secondly, where she is going to find the central Government to the big society? £5 billion that this measure will save over the next three years. Would she take it from the NHS? I know that Labour’s health spokesperson thinks that increasing The Deputy Prime Minister: As my hon. Friend knows, spending on the NHS is irresponsible. We do not. Would whether it is in planning, control over business rates, she take it from schools? Would she take it from social significant powers over skills, transport and capital care? Those are the kinds of answers that this House investment in our cities or in the enactment of a general deserves from the Labour party before the vote takes power of competence—whereby we recognise in law for place tonight. the first time the general power of competence for local authorities—I believe that, in all of those areas, as well Ms Harman: Even the right hon. Gentleman should as, of course, the new referendum powers available to be able to work out that 1% if someone is earning more local neighbourhoods and local authorities, we have than £100,000 a year is a great deal more than 1% if made a significant step towards creating a more someone is struggling on a low income. His Government decentralised nation. are failing on the economy—that is why they are borrowing £212 billion more than they had planned. Topical Questions On fairness, will the right hon. Gentleman admit that tonight’s vote will mean that, while someone earning T1. [135563] Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD): more than £1 million a year will be better off by £2,000 If he will make a statement on his departmental a week because of their tax cut, a working couple on tax responsibilities. credit will be worse off because their increase of 38p a week will be wiped out by inflation? The Government The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg): As have failed on compassion as well as on competence, so Deputy Prime Minister I support the Prime Minister on why will he not vote with us against the Bill tonight? the full range of Government policy and initiatives. The Deputy Prime Minister: The biggest tax measure, Within Government I take special responsibility for this which will benefit more than 20 million basic rate Government’s programme of political and constitutional taxpayers, is about to take place in April. A two-earner reform. household on the basic rate of tax will be £1,200 better off because we are increasing the tax allowance by the Paul Burstow: Yesterday the Government, in their largest amount ever. I would have thought that the right mid-term review, reaffirmed their commitment to the hon. and learned Lady would welcome that. It means principles of a cap and reform of means-testing to end that someone on the minimum pay will have had their the care lottery in this country. Will the Deputy Prime income tax slashed by half. Minister now go further than just considering principles On the upper rate of tax, the right hon. and learned and commit this Government to introducing legislation, Lady’s party makes great play of the 50p rate. It is through the draft Care and Support Bill, during the life worth putting it on the record that the 50p upper rate of of this Parliament to give effect to that cap and give tax existed for only 36 days of the 13 years that her people the peace of mind they deserve? Government were in office. I know that they had a deathbed conversion to the 50p rate, but they pretend The Deputy Prime Minister: I can confirm that in the that they were believers all along. Actually, the upper coming weeks we will publish our detailed response, rate of tax under Labour was 40p. Under this Government, which will address the issue of how to avoid individuals it will be 45p. Justify that! and households having to face catastrophic costs in funding their care. We have said all along that we T5. [135567] Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): believe in the principles and the basic model set out by Like many hon. Members, I read the mid-term review Andrew Dilnot. Of course there is an issue about how with great interest. Much of it is welcome, but I was to pay for this in the future, but as my right hon. Friend concerned by the line on page 32 that states that has rightly identified, the first step is to enshrine that “provision is made for Liberal Democrat MPs to abstain on approach in legislation, which we will seek to do during proposals to introduce transferable tax allowances for married this Parliament. couples.” 147 Oral Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Oral Answers 148

Why will the Deputy Prime Minister not support that T3. [135565] John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): The last common-sense proposal, which would help hard-working former East Midlands MEP, who had a radio show, families across the country? soon disappeared into political oblivion. When will the Deputy Prime Minister give the voters of Sheffield, The Deputy Prime Minister: As the hon. Gentleman Hallam the opportunity to vote on recalling him? knows, that is a carbon copy of the wording in the coalition agreement. My party has always taken this The Deputy Prime Minister: It is always a pleasure to stance because I have always struggled to explain to answer the hon. Gentleman’s somewhat incoherent but people why someone who happens not to be married none the less punchy questions. I do not want to disappoint should pay more tax than someone who happens to be him, but I am afraid there are not millions of people married. If such a measure were put before the House, hanging on his every word spoken in the Chamber. I it would be very difficult to explain to people why those think that as politicians, we should go out to be where who are not married should be stung with higher tax. people are rather than expect them to come where the That does not seem to me to be right. politicians are. I make no apology for making myself available to members of the public on the radio or in T2. [135564] Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): town and village halls up and down the country, as I do When the Deputy Prime Minister entered the coalition, every week. did he foresee that at the halfway stage there would be a sixfold increase in the number of people using food T8. [135571] Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) banks, there would be predictions that half a million (Con): Given the huge distortions in the current more children would be living in absolute poverty by parliamentary boundaries, does the Deputy Prime Minister the end of the Parliament and that he would champion really believe that by reviewing boundaries only every legislation described by the Child Poverty Action eight to 12 years we will have a fair and unbiased Group as “poverty-producing”, as he will later today? electoral voting system? Is he not thoroughly ashamed of his record? The Deputy Prime Minister: As I have said before, my The Deputy Prime Minister: I am proud that this own view, in light of the events that have disrupted the coalition Government have come together to clear up package of political reforms to which the coalition the monumental mess left by the hon. Lady’s party. Government had committed in the coalition agreement, After all, it was her shadow Chancellor who went on is that we should delay the implementation of the next the prawn cocktail charm offensive in the City of London set of boundary reviews by a full parliamentary cycle. to suck up to the banks, which created the problems in the first place. It was the Labour Government who T7. [135570] Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) presided over the shocking tax system in which a hedge (Lab): Support through the tax system for families in fund manager paid less tax on their shares than their Scotland with their child care bills amounted to a cleaner paid on their wages. It is this coalition Government miserable 1p a day in the past year, and the Resolution who have ended that scandal. Foundation says that half the benefit of the Deputy Prime Minister’s current voucher plan for child care T6. [135568] Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) goes to people in the top fifth of the income bracket. Is (LD): I congratulate my right hon. Friend on bringing he not going to have to do a lot more than his complete forward legislation on the succession to the Crown. absence of plans yesterday to prevent the second half However, does he think that it is necessary to push it of the coalition from being as big a disaster for through in one day as if it was emergency terrorism families’ child care costs as the first half? legislation, when Parliament has a job to do to ensure that it is correctly drafted and that any concerns or unforeseen difficulties are addressed properly? The Deputy Prime Minister: I am slightly surprised that the hon. Gentleman is commenting in detail on plans that have not been published yet. We have not yet The Deputy Prime Minister: Making a small, concise finalised the details of our new investment in support amendment to an Act that has been on the statute book for families facing high child care costs, but we will do since 1701 is hardly acting hastily. so in the weeks to come. I point out to him, though, that it is this Government who have introduced 15 hours of Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): 1700. free pre-school and child care support for every three and four-year-old in this country, which no Government The Deputy Prime Minister: I am being corrected by have done before. It is also this Government who, from the historians on the Opposition Benches. None the this April, for the first time ever, will be providing less, this is something that has been on the statute book 15 hours of free pre-school and child care support to for more than 300 years. Let us remember that this is a two-year-olds from the most disadvantaged families in very specific act of discrimination against one faith this country. Government Members are proud of that. only. The heir to the throne may marry someone of any religion outside the Church of England—Muslim, Hindu Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con): Why and so on—but uniquely not a Catholic under the terms is the fact that an Act has been in existence for more of the Act of 1700 or 1701. This is a precise change and than 300 years an argument for amending it, together it is being co-ordinated precisely with all the other with the Bill of Rights and the Act of Union with realms that have to make the identical change in their Scotland, in a single day? I would have thought the legislation. argument was very much in the opposite direction. 149 Oral Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Oral Answers 150

The Deputy Prime Minister: As I sought to explain to during Labour’s time in office—students will not pay my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed any up-front fees at all. That includes thousands of (Sir Alan Beith) earlier, we are removing one specific, part-time students who for the first time do not need to highly discriminatory provision from the law, on the pay any up-front fees. Because of the way we are introducing faith of people whom heirs to the throne may marry. what is, in effect, a time-limited graduate tax, all graduates That discriminatory provision was introduced in the early will pay out less from their bank account every week years of the 18th century in response to the activities of and month—even if for longer—than they did under Louis XIV of France, and I simply do not think it is the system introduced by Labour. necessary now in 21st century Britain. T11. [135574] John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): I T10. [135573] Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): welcome the second wave of city deals for the next The Deputy Prime Minister is starting to have the same 20 largest cities, but what about smaller cities such as trait as the Prime Minister of not answering questions. Carlisle? Will the Deputy Prime Minister confirm that May I try again? Is it not the case that after the vote they too will have the opportunity to reach a deal with this evening, 3,900 people in my constituency who the Government to have increased powers devolved to claim in-work benefits and do the right thing will be them? worse off while millionaires get a tax cut of £2,000 a week? The Deputy Prime Minister: As my hon. Friend will know, the first wave of city deals applied to the eight The Deputy Prime Minister: As I said before, the biggest cities. We then invited 20 cities and communities Labour rate for top taxpayers was 40p, so the hon. to submit bids for the next wave, on which we hope to Gentleman needs to justify his support for 13 years for decide in the coming months. I very much hope that the a lower rate applied to millionaires than will be city deals will not be just a one-off experiment in introduced—[Interruption.] I know Opposition Members devolution but that they will act as a template for do not like it, and they are shrieking at the top of their further devolution across the country. voices, but the record shows that for the whole time of the Labour Government, apart from 30 days towards Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): the end, the upper rate was 40p. We are introducing an The coalition agreement states that the Government upper rate of 45p. That is the first point. will introduce The second point is that I hope the hon. Gentleman “extra support for people with disabilities who want to become would celebrate with his constituents the fact that as MPs, councillors or other elected officials.” of April this year, every single basic rate taxpayer in his Will the Deputy Prime Minister update the House on constituency will be £600 better off because of the changes progress with that? in the income tax allowance that we have introduced since the general election. The Deputy Prime Minister: As the hon. Lady may know, there is a £2.6 million access to elected office T9. [135572] Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North fund, and the wider access to elected office strategy was Poole) (LD): There is no doubt that the Government launched in July last year to deliver on the coalition have to make some tough decisions, but what comment agreement commitment to provide extra support to would my right hon. Friend make on the overall impact tackle the obstacles she mentions. The fund will be open of Government policies on social mobility? for applications until the end of March 2014, and so far there have been 11 applications, including from independent The Deputy Prime Minister: One thing we have learned candidates. is that if we could shift social mobility by pouring billions of pounds into the tax credit system—the Labour Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): Can the party’s approach—that would have worked a long time Deputy Prime Minister assure the House that the Succession ago. In fact, despite a huge transfer of money through to the Crown Bill will give the public confidence that the the tax credit system, social mobility barely budged relationship between Church and state will be unaltered, during 13 years of Labour government. That is why we even if a future monarch should marry a Roman Catholic are investing more in early years initiatives and providing and the ensuing child is a Catholic? more child care support, and why we are giving more support to two, three and four-year-olds and—most The Deputy Prime Minister: I can give the hon. importantly—providing £2.5 billion through the pupil Gentleman complete reassurance that the provisions premium to help the education of the most disadvantaged in the Bill will not in any way alter the status of the children in the country. We believe that that is the way established Church in this country and the monarch as to promote social mobility over time. head of that Church. We have had monarchs who have married Catholics. I think Queen Anne of Denmark T13. [135576] Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): The was married to James I of Scotland—I may be corrected Labour-controlled Welsh Assembly is not implementing by our historian, the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris tuition fees, and Liberal Democrat Assembly Members Bryant), from a sedentary position. There is absolutely support that. Does the Deputy Prime Minister agree nothing in the provisions that will alter the status of the with his Liberal colleagues in Wales? Church in the way feared by the hon. Member for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner). The Deputy Prime Minister: We have a devolved approach to higher education in both Wales and Scotland. Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): The Under the new system introduced in England—unlike coalition agreement commits the Government to the that over which the right hon. Gentleman presided appointment of new peers to create a second Chamber 151 Oral Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Oral Answers 152 that is more reflective of votes cast at the 2010 general ATTORNEY-GENERAL election. Is the Deputy Prime Minister seriously saying that he will appoint 24 new UKIP Members of the House of Lords and 16 new peers to represent the British National party, or is it more about stuffing the other The Attorney-General was asked— place full of Tory and Lib Dem cronies? Serious Fraud Office (Senior Staff) The Deputy Prime Minister: With respect, I think the hon. Gentleman has grasped the wrong end of the stick. 1. Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): What steps he is The coalition agreement says that the appointments we taking to recover payments made to former senior staff make to an unreformed House of Lords—pending the at the Serious Fraud Office that were not properly long-awaited, and now even more long-awaited reform authorised. [135612] of the other place—will be made according to the proportion of votes won by parties at the last general 3. Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): What steps election. That is precisely what we intend to do. he is taking to recover payments made to former senior staff at the Serious Fraud Office which were not authorised by the Cabinet Office or Her Majesty’s Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I wish the Treasury. [135616] Deputy Prime Minister a happy new year. Was one of his new year resolutions to decide that, if he thinks a The Attorney-General (Mr Dominic Grieve): As set policy is right, it should be rushed through in a day? out in my statement to the House on 4 December 2012, Will he answer properly a question he has been asked on learning of these agreements and payments, the new before? Why will the succession Bill be rushed through director of the Serious Fraud Office sought legal advice in a day under emergency legislation procedures? Those on whether the arrangements might be reopened and procedures should be used only for emergency legislation, on whether money might be recovered. The advice he which the succession Bill is not. received is that the agreements, although entered into without the necessary approvals, are binding on the The Deputy Prime Minister: I wish the hon. Gentleman Serious Fraud Office. a happy new year too—and Mrs Bone. It is important to stress that the Bill is not a capricious legislative Mr Spellar: If one of our constituents is overpaid on initiative on behalf of the Government. It was solemnly tax credits, or on their housing or council tax benefits, agreed at the Commonwealth summit in Perth by all which often occurs through no fault of their own, the the Commonwealth realms. It has also been subject to state claws the overpayment back, yet the Serious Fraud extensive discussion between officials in the Cabinet Office has made unauthorised redundancy payments to Office and the royal household, and between Governments bureaucrat fat cats—some of nearly £500,000—but seems and officials of this country and of the Commonwealth to be doing nothing to recover them. What, therefore, realms. We have said that we will take the lead in setting will the Attorney-General do to get the money back? out the legislative provisions for the other Commonwealth Perhaps he could get a new lawyer, but he could also realms. The legislative change is very precise, which is take action against those responsible for irresponsibly why we are keen to proceed as quickly as possible. giving away public money.

The Attorney-General: I share the right hon. Gentleman’s Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): Perhaps the disquiet about what has happened. Nevertheless, it is Deputy Prime Minister would like to take this opportunity the duty of the director of the Serious Fraud Office, to enhance his concern for people in difficulties. More who is the accounting officer in this context, to take than 60,000 people have signed a petition asking that legal advice and to observe it when he receives it, and the Government carry out a proper cumulative impact the legal advice he has received is quite clear. It is assessment of the changes to disability benefits. Will he perhaps worth making one further point. The vast ensure that that happens? majority of the sums paid out would have been in line with the civil service compensation scheme. In my judgment, The Deputy Prime Minister: I am curious to know some payments may well not have been in line with the whether the hon. Lady believes that those impact scheme, but the majority were—I would stress the totality assessments were delivered in full under the Labour of the sums involved. Should there be any further Government—I do not recall them. She will know that developments, I will inform the House of them. Like we are on the verge of introducing a very significant the right hon. Gentleman, I do not consider the matter change in the way in which disability benefits are to be satisfactory—it causes me disquiet, and the Public administered in the years ahead, from the disability Accounts Committee may well wish to look into it. living allowance system to the personal independence payment system. That change will mean that many who Grahame M. Morris: I thank the Attorney-General have received disability benefits for years when there for his reply to my right hon. Friend the Member for has been no check on whether they need it will finally, Warley (Mr Spellar). In that spirit of openness, will he for the first time, be asked to be subject to certain publish the findings of the independent investigation objective tests. The change will also mean that people into the payouts commissioned by the current director who do not currently receive benefits or support for of the Serious Fraud Office? Will he also indicate their disabilities will receive it for the first time. We have whether any legal or disciplinary action will be taken been transparent in setting out our proposals. against the individuals responsible? 153 Oral Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Oral Answers 154

The Attorney-General: On the first point, my office The Attorney-General: The hon. Lady raises an interesting and the Serious Fraud Office have received requests for question which may turn out to be a good subject for this information, and we are currently considering whether debate in this House at some point. There is clearly any further information can be released. I would like to potential for changing the rules on the retention of the see as much of the information released as possible. proceeds of crime by prosecuting agencies, but it is On the second point, it is right to make it clear that equally right to point out that it is not an uncontroversial the person responsible for making these payments is no subject. Disquiet is expressed about prosecutors being longer working in the civil service. dependent on asset seizure for the way in which they operate, and that also raises some profoundly difficult Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Does ethical issues. For those reasons, I would counsel caution the Attorney-General realise that this is merely a symptom about whether that is necessarily the right way forward, of something seriously wrong with the Serious Fraud although I am open-minded about any improvements Office in terms of its leadership, culture and record over that can be made on funding. recent years? Tax Evasion

The Attorney-General: May I recommend that the 2. Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) hon. Gentleman look at the report by Her Majesty’s (LD): How many successful prosecutions for tax Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate on the Serious evasion the Serious Fraud Office has completed in each Fraud Office, as he will see that it has many laudatory of the last five years. [135615] things to say about the way in which the SFO has operated and sees it as capable of achieving significant The Solicitor-General (Oliver Heald): It is the Crown outcomes in challenging cases. That is not to say that Prosecution Service rather than the Serious Fraud Office I do not think that there is room for improvement—I that prosecutes tax evasion cases. The records of the certainly do. A new director, David Green, has been Crown Prosecution Service show that in 2008-09 there appointed, and I have every confidence that he will be were 226 convictions, and the latest figures, up to November able to make the necessary changes. For example, he 2012, show 349. will be implementing the changes that the inspectorate recommended, and it will of course make a follow-up Simon Hughes: We had a major debate on tax avoidance report to track that progress. yesterday, and I think the country and Parliament want us to be very tough on tax evasion. Can the Solicitor- Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con): While General assure us that the Government and the Crown we are on the subject of the efficiency of the Serious Prosecution Service will concentrate on large national Fraud Office, may I ask the Attorney-General how it is and international companies, and not on the small fish, that, despite the appalling behaviour of some bank staff so that ordinary people realise that they are not being in some British banks and the enormous fines that have singled out when much bigger prizes are available from been imposed on those banks by the regulatory authorities much naughtier people? in both New York and London, no senior banker in this country has yet been prosecuted for complicity in serious The Solicitor-General: I can certainly give my right criminal banking offences? hon. Friend the assurance that from top to bottom the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, who has given us a Mr Speaker: I know that in respect of this question target of increasing prosecutions fivefold, and all parts the right hon. Gentleman will have in mind fraud in of Government will tackle this issue hard. From the particular, which properly concerns the Serious Fraud point of view of the Attorney-General’s office, my right Office. He did not say it, but I know that is what he hon. Friend may be interested to know that we have meant. been referring cases where sentences are unduly lenient to the Court of Appeal. It has recently been established Sir Peter Tapsell: I withdraw the word “criminal” and that seven years’ imprisonment should be the starting insert the word “fraudulent” instead. point for significant tax fraud cases.

The Attorney-General: I thank my right hon. Friend Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): for his question, in whichever context. The Serious Tax fraud is estimated to cost the Government £3.3 billion. Fraud Office is carrying out a major inquiry and What steps are the Serious Fraud Office and the investigation into the LIBOR scandal. The conduct of Department taking to address that? the investigation is obviously a matter for the SFO, but the matter has not been ignored. The Solicitor-General: The Crown Prosecution Service, with the police, is working extremely hard on tax evasion cases to ensure that as many as possible are brought to Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) court. As I mentioned, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Lab): The Attorney-General has referred to the report has set the target of a fivefold increase in cases. The by Her Majesty’s Crown Prosecution Service inspectorate. figures I read out show that since 2008-09, there has I have read it, and it says that the Serious Fraud Office been a major increase in the number of convictions. needs to improve its performance and appears to be suffering considerable resourcing problems. Will he consider Child Abuse Victims the suggestion by the director of the SFO that the agency be allowed to retain more of the proceeds of 4. Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): What steps crime that it confiscates? Might that be a way in which it he is taking to support victims of child abuse in the could increase its funding? prosecution process. [135617] 155 Oral Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Oral Answers 156

The Solicitor-General (Oliver Heald): The Crown guidance, which I hope will lead to more prosecutions. Prosecution Service takes all allegations of child abuse I accept the need for more prosecutions in this area, but very seriously. Supporting victims of child abuse is vital we want to establish best practice, and that guidance to successful prosecutions. The CPS works closely with will be out soon. the police and voluntary sector agencies to ensure that proper support is provided to victims at all stages. Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): On another form of child abuse—female genital mutilation—there have been Anas Sarwar: In the past two years, reports of child no prosecutions whatsoever in this country since it abuse have shocked the entire country. Currently, at became illegal. Does the Solicitor-General share my least 13 inquiries are taking place, including three BBC hope that the Director of Public Prosecutions’ robust inquiries into Jimmy Savile, a Department of Health new action plan will lead to more progress in this area? investigation into Broadmoor, a CPS inquiry, and inquiries into child protection in Rotherham and Rochdale. What The Solicitor-General: Yes, I certainly do. I have discussions has the Minister had with other ministerial personally raised and discussed this subject with the colleagues to ensure all that work is pulled together, and DPP and was delighted that he held the round-table to ensure that all victims of child abuse receive the last September, which led to the robust action plan that support and protection they deserve? my hon. Friend mentions. That is about improving the evidence available, identifying what is hindering The Solicitor-General: The Director of Public investigations and prosecutions, exploring how other Prosecutions is working closely with all other authorities jurisdictions deal with these cases and ensuring that the and took a personal lead in September by holding a police and prosecution work together closely on what round-table to consider how child sexual exploitation are very difficult cases. offences can be tackled. Witness care units are important and new Crown Prosecution Service guidance on child Human Trafficking sexual exploitation is due in the new year. A great deal is being done, and special measures are being put in place 5. Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): How many to help witnesses give evidence. prosecutions for human trafficking there have been in the most recent period for which figures are available; Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con): My hon. and if he will make a statement. [135618] Friend is probably aware that a small team is looking into the history of cases of child abuse complaints in 7. Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): Northern Ireland. One member of the team is an ex-senior What steps he is taking to increase prosecutions for inspector in the Metropolitan police who explained to human trafficking. [135620] me that, looking back at cases from 1920, believe it or not, one stark fact is the astonishing lack of support for The Solicitor-General (Oliver Heald): The Crown victims, including from the Crown Prosecution Service. Prosecution Service charged and prosecuted 64 cases Would my hon. Friend be interested in meeting him at where human trafficking was the main offence between the right time to consider whether there is anything 1 April 2012 and 2 January this year, and has prosecuted from his expertise and research that would be of help? other human trafficking cases using other legislation. The CPS is working with law enforcement and other The Solicitor-General: I am grateful to my hon. Friend agencies to improve investigation and prosecution and for that offer, which I will certainly take up. He is right to encourage victims. to say that support for witnesses is crucial to enable them to give their evidence in a confident and effective Fiona Mactaggart: Those figures sound a little better way. That is why the witness care units, the use of the than the ones previously published that suggested to me voluntary sector supporters and the other work going that out of 25 European countries Britain had fewer into special measures at court to make it easier for prosecutions for human trafficking specifically than all witnesses to give evidence are all important. I look bar Malta, Slovakia, Estonia and Finland. What effect forward to the meeting. does the Solicitor-General believe the relatively low level of prosecution for specific human trafficking offences Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I welcome the steps has on the potential for future human traffickers? taken by Keir Starmer and Nazir Afzal to try to reorganise how the Crown Prosecution Service deals with these The Solicitor-General: Of course, it is very important matters. However, the fact remains that in relation to that we prosecute cases of this kind, but I make the Rotherham there have been no prosecutions this year in point to the hon. Lady that the figures I read out and the whole of south Yorkshire, despite 600 victims having which are often quoted relate to cases where human been identified in the past few years. Does the Solicitor- trafficking was the main offence, but quite often with General share my concern? Can we please see more human trafficking, as she will know, the main offence is prosecutions of the perpetrators? a violent assault or a rape, and it is the more serious offences that are flagged. In another 111 cases, in addition The Solicitor-General: As the right hon. Gentleman to the 64 I mentioned, human trafficking was one of the will be aware, it depends on the police investigating offences, but the main offence was a rape or major cases thoroughly and then on the Crown Prosecution conspiracy. Service reviewing them to see what evidence is needed. A full review was carried out after the Rochdale case, Andrew Selous: There have been relatively few which was particularly concerning. That was last autumn, prosecutions for human trafficking involving forced since when the CPS has been working on the new labour, compared with, say, sexual exploitation, although 157 Oral Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Oral Answers 158 there have been major successes in my own county of The Attorney-General (Mr Dominic Grieve): Lord Bedfordshire and, just before Christmas, in Gloucestershire. Justice Leveson has provided detailed recommendations These forced labour exploiters often earn enormous on how best the press might be regulated in future. sums of money. What can we do to take some of that Those recommendations and their implementation will money to help the police fund these complex and difficult be considered by the Government and Parliament. investigations? Whichever regulatory model is finally chosen, the law of contempt remains applicable. When appropriate, I will The Solicitor-General: My hon. Friend will know of continue to bring proceedings against publications that the Connors case, which was finally concluded yesterday create a substantial risk that the course of justice in —an appalling case involving vulnerable people being proceedings will be seriously impeded or prejudiced. forced to work by the criminals concerned. It is important that we tackle these cases, but the main offence was Graeme Morrice: What consideration has the Attorney- introduced only in 2010 and related to events that General given to Lord Leveson’s view that further guidance occurred after that date, so we are very much at the is needed on press coverage of police investigations and early stage of bringing these cases to court. The Connors that case is one of the first. An agreement has been reached “save in exceptional and clearly identified circumstances…the with the Gangmasters Licensing Authority, however, to names…of those…arrested or suspected of a crime should not be refer cases to the police, and other steps are being taken released to the press or the public”? to toughen up on internal trafficking. The Attorney-General: I have noted what Lord Justice Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Has the Solicitor-General Leveson has said and it may be something to be had any indication of the number of cases where files incorporated in press regulation. The current position were submitted and the decision was taken not to on the law of contempt is that proceedings are active prosecute, or of the number of decisions that were from the time of arrest. Those considerations are not based on concerns about the witness capacity of the identical to those that Lord Justice Leveson was considering, victims? but they raise the issue that after arrest the press has to have in mind the possible impact on the fairness of the trial process thereafter. That could include naming a The Solicitor-General: I will look into that and am suspect; equally, it might be perfectly acceptable to do happy to write to the hon. Gentleman, because I do not that. have the information here. The Crown Prosecution Service is anxious to prosecute in this area if the evidence Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): There is available. All too often it is difficult to obtain the quality is continuing concern, nevertheless, about the almost of evidence from overseas that one would want in order habitual naming of suspects after arrest, which in the to prosecute effectively. There is also the problem that minds of many of us has the potential to cause real victims need a great deal of support and encouragement. prejudice. Will my right hon. and learned Friend do all All these matters are being addressed, and I will write to he can to monitor the current situation and ensure that the hon. Gentleman on his point. the law is prosecuted to its full effect?

Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I welcome The Attorney-General: My hon. Friend raises an what the Government are doing in this field—they are important point. I am certainly mindful that in many of being very proactive—but does the Solicitor-General the contempt matters brought to my attention the problem share my concern that there is a temptation for the has arisen in the period between arrest and charge. Of Crown Prosecution Service to choose lesser charges for course, if the House were minded to change the law on which it is easier to secure a conviction, such as immigration anonymity, which has been floated previously in private offences, which results in traffickers getting a lower Members’ business, that could be done by enacting sentence than if they had been prosecuted for human legislation. However, let me make it quite clear that this trafficking? would need a legislative solution, not one that I can in some way “magic up”. The law of contempt has to be The Solicitor-General: I would dispute that. As I applied free of all political considerations, and that is mentioned to the hon. Member for Slough (Fiona what I try to do as best I can. Mactaggart), many human trafficking cases involve other offences, which are often more serious. With sexual Mr Speaker: I would not want the hon. Member for exploitation cases, where there are continual rapes and Glasgow North West (John Robertson) to feel socially serious offences of that sort, it is right to charge for rape excluded, so we will accommodate him, but he needs to as the principal offence because it is more serious in be very brief. some ways. I therefore do not accept that the Crown Prosecution Service is going for lower charges. This is a Serious Fraud Office matter that we in the Attorney-General’s office keep under review. 8. John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab): What recent assessment he has made of the Serious Fraud Law of Contempt Office’s ability to conduct a succession of large-scale inquiries. [135621] 6. Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab): Whether implementation of the recommendations of the Leveson The Attorney-General (Mr Dominic Grieve): The recent report will affect the enforcement of laws of contempt. report by Her Majesty’s Crown Prosecution Service [135619] Inspectorate demonstrates that the Serious Fraud Office 159 Oral Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Oral Answers 160 has the ability to conduct large-scale inquiries, although The Attorney-General: The undertaking is for up to there is scope for improvement. Funding for the Serious £3.5 million for each of the next three years to be made Fraud Office is kept under constant review. There is a available as and when required. When the SFO requires set budget for the SFO, but as the Prime Minister has it, it will be made available. previously made clear in relation to the LIBOR investigation, if the SFO needs more resources, they Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the Attorney-General. I will be provided. remind the House that, in addition to the two urgent questions granted today, there is a statement followed John Robertson: Can the right hon. and learned by a very heavily subscribed Second Reading debate on Gentleman confirm that none of the additional funding the Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill. The UQs will therefore promised for the LIBOR investigation has been received be run strictly to time, but depending on the level of by the Serious Fraud Office, and will he explain why? It interest, it might not be possible to accommodate all is envisaged that the investigation will take three years. colleagues who are interested. I shall do my best, and Why so long? I invite the House to do the same. 161 8 JANUARY 2013 Ibrahim Magag 162

Ibrahim Magag have said that Magag has attended terrorist training camps in Somalia, that he was fundraising for known terrorists and that 12.35 pm “the operational tempo and capability of the group of extremists based in London will be degraded by removing his operational Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) role from London”. (Lab) (Urgent Question): To ask the Home Secretary to Does the Home Secretary think that that threat assessment make a statement on the disappearance of Ibrahim still holds? Magag. How was Magag able to abscond in the first place? Was he even under surveillance at the time? Cabwise, a The Secretary of State for the Home Department trade news service for London cabbies, reported yesterday (Mrs Theresa May): On 26 December 2012, Ibrahim that Magag Magag, a Somali-born British national who is subject “used a London taxi in the vicinity of Triton Street at around to a terrorism prevention and investigation measure, 17:20 on 26 December.” failed to report for his overnight residence requirement. Is that true? Is the Home Secretary worried that surveillance As I told the House yesterday, the police believe that he can be shaken off simply by jumping into a black cab? has absconded, and his whereabouts are currently unknown. The Home Secretary allowed Ibrahim Magag to return On 31 December, at the request of the police, I asked to London. She has not answered the question from the the High Court to revoke the anonymity order that was independent reviewer, David Anderson, about whether in force in relation to Magag. The police subsequently it would have been harder to abscond in the west issued a public appeal for information that might lead country, where Magag was made to live under a control to his location and apprehension. The Government order and where it would have been harder for him to took steps to inform Parliament of this incident as soon get help from his associates, harder to hide and harder as it was lawful and operationally possible to do so. The to get forged papers. She knows that relocation makes it Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, harder to abscond, because she has included it in her my hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup draft emergency terror legislation. (James Brokenshire), spoke to the Chairmen of the Home Affairs Select Committee and the Intelligence The Home Secretary referred to the early years of and Security Committee on 31 December. This was control orders, but David Anderson, the independent followed by letters to both Committee Chairmen, to the reviewer has said: shadow Home Secretary and to you, Mr Speaker. Copies “The absence of absconds since mid-2007 has coincided with of the letters were placed in the Library of the House the trend away from light touch control orders, and/or the more on the same day. extensive use of relocation.” The right hon. Lady chose to ditch relocations, and she The statements that the police issued on 31 December has personally made it easier for people to abscond. and 2 January confirm that, at this time, Magag is not Other people previously relocated under control orders considered to represent a direct threat to the British are also now back in London on terrorism prevention public. The TPIM notice in this case was intended and investigation measures. Could any one of them primarily to prevent fundraising and overseas travel. simply jump into a black cab tomorrow and be off? The Government do not believe that Magag’s disappearance is linked to any current terrorism planning in the UK. Will the Home Secretary ask the independent reviewer Nevertheless, we are of course taking this matter very urgently to investigate the failures of this case and to seriously. review the issue of relocation? She has ignored security advice before and someone involved in terrorism is now The police are doing everything in their power to out on our streets. She must not ignore the evidence on apprehend Magag as quickly as possible. Although I relocations. She should put the national interest ahead cannot give operational details, I can confirm that the of her political interests and stop ducking the issue. Is it police, the Security Service and other agencies are devoting not time that she took some responsibility and sorted significant resources to the search for Magag. Members this mess out? of the public with any information relating to the search should contact the confidential police anti-terrorist hotline. Mrs May: I am very sorry that the shadow Home Before the shadow Home Secretary stands up again, I Secretary chose to pursue that line in relation to this would like to remind the House that this is not the first case. Let me repeat the key fact that she does not seem abscond of a terror suspect. In six years of control to want to accept—that this is not the first time that orders, there were seven absconds, of which six were somebody has absconded. She seems to think that it is never apprehended. Magag’s abscond is serious, and the all down to the difference between control orders and authorities are doing everything they can to locate him. TPIMs, but in six years of control orders there were I will update the House when there are further developments seven absconds and six of the individuals involved were as soon as it is possible to do so. never apprehended. The right hon. Lady keeps saying that it is all down to Yvette Cooper: Ibrahim Magag is still missing after whether we have the power to relocate, but relocation 13 days, and the Home Secretary clearly has no idea powers were available throughout the history of control where he is. The first priority must be to find him, and orders and they did not prevent seven absconds by she should tell us more about the additional resources control order subjects. If she will not listen to me, being put into the search. Will she also tell us what the perhaps she will listen to the police and the Security threat assessment really is? She said that the risk simply Service, which made it absolutely clear at the time related to “fundraising and overseas travel”, yet the courts TPIMs were introduced that there should be no substantial 163 Ibrahim Magag8 JANUARY 2013 Ibrahim Magag 164 increase in overall risk and that appropriate arrangements Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I thank the security were in place for the transition from control orders to Minister—the Under-Secretary of State for the Home TPIMs—and that remains their position. Department, the hon. Member for Old Bexley and The right hon. Lady asked about the current level of Sidcup (James Brokenshire)—for contacting me about risk. I repeat what I said in response to her question—that this matter on new year’s eve. May I briefly express two the statements the police issued on 31 December and on concerns? First, it has been alleged that Magag was 2 January confirm that at this time Magag is not considered forging passports while he was in the camp in Somalia. to represent a direct threat to the British public, and Can the Home Secretary confirm that the police have that the Government do not believe that his disappearance his passport so that he is not able to travel abroad? is linked to any current terrorism planning in the UK. Secondly, will she personally review the arrangements for the other nine people who are subject to TPIMs, in The right hon. Lady made a number of references order to be satisfied that they are all in place and are to David Anderson, the independent reviewer. He has secure? said: “The only sure way to prevent absconding is to lock people in a high security prison.” Mrs May: The issue of the passport has not been I agree, which is why we provided extra funding to the discussed openly in public, but given the right hon. Security Service and the police when we introduced Gentleman’s position I shall be happy to talk to him TPIMs to maximise the opportunities to prosecute terrorists about it on Privy Council terms. As for his second in open court and to minimise the risk they pose to question, when one TPIM subject absconds, the agencies national security.The alternatives—whether we are talking take appropriate steps to look at other TPIM subjects. about TPIMs or control orders—are highly useful disruptive tools, but because they do not involve locking people Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Does the Home up, as the history of control orders shows, there will Secretary agree that the whole concept of internal exile always be a risk of abscond. without trial is abhorrent? Labour should never have Currently, the police and other agencies are, as I have introduced such a Stalinist, authoritarian approach, said, working very hard to apprehend Ibrahim Magag. and she was right to get rid of it. Someone who has They have taken the operational decisions that needed committed a terrorist offence should be tried, convicted to be taken and the way in which they pursue their and jailed, not exiled indefinitely without trial. inquiries is an operational matter for them. When the dust has settled, we will look again to see whether any Mrs May: As I explained in my response to the lessons need to be learned. The independent reviewer shadow Home Secretary, one of the purposes of the produces an annual report that covers TPIMs, and I extra resources that we provided for the Security Service fully expect him to cover them in his review. I say to the and the police following the introduction of TPIMs was shadow Home Secretary, however, that all she has done to improve their ability to identify opportunities for in highlighting this matter is to demonstrate the weakness prosecution. As was pointed out by the independent of her argument, as what she says about TPIMs was reviewer, the best place for a terrorist suspect is behind also true of control orders. I hope that the whole House bars. will join me in supporting the police, the Security Service and other agencies in continuing their work and in Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab): The keeping our country safe. Home Secretary decided to rebalance in favour of civil liberties rather than security, and that cost £50 million. Several hon. Members rose— Will she answer this question? Did the absence of relocation affect the ability of this individual to abscond? Mr Speaker: Order. To maximise the number of participants in these exchanges, I appeal to right hon. Mrs May: When the Government took office they and hon. Members to ask single short supplementary decided to review counter-terrorism legislation. There questions and, of course, to the Home Secretary to was a public consultation, and a number of changes provide us with her characteristically pithy replies. were made as a result. It is possible for people to abscond from wherever they are; indeed, three of the Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con): Since the control order subjects who absconded did so from previous Government introduced the Human Rights outside London. Act 1998, it has been more difficult, has it not, to strike the right balance between the rights of terrorists and the proportionate protection of society from the threat David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): Is not one of they present? Should we not be thinking about the long- the root causes of the current problem the fact that term future of the Human Rights Act, notwithstanding members of the Labour Government allowed so many the support it has from Opposition Members? of these people to have visas and passports, letting them stay in the United Kingdom? Is it not time that we Mrs May: My hon. Friend tempts me down a road rounded up as many of them as possible, and established that, if I were to travel down it, would probably necessitate grounds on which to strip them of their visas and a rather longer response than the pithy answer you have passports and deport them to whichever hellhole they requested of me, Mr. Speaker. I can tell him, however, came from and wish to emulate? that the Government are looking at the Human Rights Act, and that the Commission on a Bill of Rights is Mrs May: My hon. Friend makes his point in his considering what legislative support we should have in normal forthright manner. I can tell him that the relation to human rights. Government view national security as an absolute priority 165 Ibrahim Magag8 JANUARY 2013 Ibrahim Magag 166

[Mrs May] Mrs May: I certainly agree with my hon. Friend that it is important to improve and develop the ability of the and take every possible step to keep the public safe, agencies to have access to communications data. That, through deportations when they are possible, through if I might gently remind my hon. Friend, is not about the application of TPIMs, or through other measures. intercepting data. Intercept of data is a separate issue under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000, Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): On many but it is true that we need access to that communications occasions the Home Secretary has been at pains to data. As terrorists and others—organised criminals, reassure the House that the extra measures are sufficient paedophiles and others—use new means to communicate, to mitigate any increased risk caused by the absence of it is important that the Government have access to the a relocation power and the move from control orders to communications data from those new means of TPIMs. Why were those additional resources not effective communications. in this case? Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): Mrs May: It is true that when we introduced TPIMs The Home Secretary has repeated several times this we made extra resources available to the Security Service afternoon that the Security Service and the police advised and the police. However, as I said in my original response that there would be no substantial increase in risk as a in relation to whatever powers actually exist, the best result of the introduction of TPIMs, but the question place for a terrorist or a terrorist suspect is behind bars, that she is singularly failing to answer is how she can because without that there is a risk of absconding. justify any increase in risk to the safety of this nation. Or is she saying that the absconding of Mr Magag and Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con): Does my the more relaxed conditions that allowed it to happen right hon. Friend agree that the crude political posturing are now part of an additional but acceptable risk that of Labour Members is all the more ironic given that she is prepared to take? they did not even vote against TPIMs when the Government proposed their introduction, and given that they lost Mrs May: I say to the right hon. Gentleman, as I have seven people under control orders, six of whom have said to him on a number of occasions, because he has never been seen again? asked a number of questions in relation to TPIMs— [Interruption.] He says from a sedentary position that he will continue to do so, and I will continue to answer Mrs May: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. them in the same way. When we looked at the legislation, The point that the shadow Home Secretary seems incapable we did introduce the TPIMs. One of the purposes of the of accepting is that under control orders with relocation TPIMs was to ensure that people were better able to powers, seven people absconded. find evidence that would lead to prosecutions. Extra resources were given to the Security Service and the Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): police at the time, and the Security Service and the The Home Secretary is at pains to say that it is not all police at the time and now are clear that there was no about relocation, and she reminds the House that she substantial increase in risk. chose to legislate to give these suspects access to mobile phones and the internet, and for a sunset clause that Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): In my experience, would kill this regime off after two years even if the the very best way of stopping potential terrorists in threat level from the individual had not changed. Given action, in thought or in any deed is to relocate them. the disappearance of Mr Magag, does she not regret Will my right hon. Friend reconsider the measure? I was regarding increased risk to the public and unnecessary always uneasy about changing from control orders. extra pressure on the police and the security services as an acceptable price to pay and as, in the end, a civil Mrs May: I have to say to my hon. Friend that my liberties pose rather than a move to increase national view, as I have stated this afternoon, is clearly that the security? best way to deal with terrorists and terrorist suspects is to be able to prosecute them and put them behind bars. Mrs May: I am confident in the TPIM package that was available—the TPIM measures plus the extra resources Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): that were made available to the Security Service and the Apparently, during the period that he was supposedly police. We of course consulted on them at the time this subject to a TPIM, this man was allowed to meet was done. As I said in response to the urgent question regularly with other known extremists. Why did the from the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract Home Secretary think that was a good idea? and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), they were clear that there was no substantial increase in risk, and that Mrs May: For every individual who is placed on a remains their position. TPIM, there is a particular package of measures that is part of that. The details of that are operational matters. Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston North) (Con): What I can say to the hon. Gentleman is that the Does my right hon. Friend agree that the best way to package of measures is carefully considered for each avoid such dangerous individuals being loose in our individual and is reviewed regularly. society is to improve our ability to intercept their communications? Will she therefore agree to carry on Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): Will my right supporting the telecommunications Bill—which I hope hon. Friend remind the House that more people absconded will come before the House—so that our agencies can under the previous Government than under this do the best job they can? Government? While she is at it, will she remind the 167 Ibrahim Magag8 JANUARY 2013 Ibrahim Magag 168

House that under the previous Government and under result, within 12 months he has absconded. That is what the control order regime there were more absconds that happened. It is clear. Is it true—yes or no—did he just were not based in London? ring a cab?

Mrs May: My hon. Friend has put it well and put it Mrs May: The situation that the hon. Gentleman on the record. It is the singular fact that the shadow portrays in the whole of his question is not the situation Home Secretary is reluctant to accept—indeed, will not that pertains. I made it clear in answer to his hon. accept—that there were seven absconds under control Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve orders, and six of those individuals were never apprehended. McCabe) that for any individual on TPIMs a range of measures can be applied, including, for example, listing Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): Even those with whom they may not associate. Those measures if Magag does not pose a direct, imminent terror threat, are put in place for each individual. They are carefully as the Home Secretary claims, does she not accept that considered and regularly reassessed. his presence in a city such as London is of great concern Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): Does and risks radicalising young vulnerable people such as my right hon. Friend agree that the real issue is not some in my constituency? What assurances can she give about relocation orders but about the extra resources that that will not happen? that were given to the police and security services when TPIMs were introduced? Can she reassure me that Mrs May: We take that individual’s abscond extremely those extra resources are being used with specific reference seriously, as I have said. The police, the Security Service to this person so that he can be apprehended as soon as and other agencies are working and putting resources possible? into trying to apprehend him. That is entirely right and, as I said earlier, I hope the whole House will support the Mrs May: The extra resources that were available police and the other agencies in doing that. were to be used on the introduction of the TPIMs and for a period of time in terms of the individuals who Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Does not the fact that were on TPIMs and the TPIM regime that had been six people absconded under the control orders and were introduced. In relation to resources for the potential never found show the major flaws in the control order apprehension of Ibrahim Magag, I am assured by the system? Can my right hon. Friend set out how the police and others that they have the resources that they TPIM system, with the extra resources thrown at it, is consider necessary to be able to conduct the inquiries much more advantageous? and the search they are conducting.

Mrs May: My hon. Friend has hit the nail on the Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): Further to the head: the Opposition fail to accept that under the question from my right hon. Friend the Member for control order regime there were seven absconds, six of Leicester East (Keith Vaz), the Chair of the Select whom were not apprehended. That was under a regime Committee, why cannot we all be told whether the that had the relocation power. What we did with TPIMs authorities have Magag’s passport? Do not the public and in giving extra resources to the police and the have a right to know? Security Service was to put in place the regime that was Mrs May: Perhaps I can answer the question in this appropriate for national security, but which also should way. There are certain facts in relation to an individual allow greater opportunities for prosecution. that are not publicly known because they are subject to an anonymity order, and there are various legal issues Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): The background to relating to that. If I may go away and check those this is clear. Under control orders, people absconded, so issues, and if it is possible to make a public reference in the extra power to enforce their relocation was used and the House in relation to the passport issue, I will place a as a result, during the next four years, no one absconded. letter in the Library of the House. The Home Secretary made a political decision to get rid of that power and allowed this man to come back, live Mr Speaker: I thank the Home Secretary and colleagues where he wants, mix with whoever he likes and as a for their co-operation. 169 8 JANUARY 2013 South London Healthcare NHS Trust 170

South London Healthcare NHS Trust Dame Joan Ruddock: I thank the Secretary of State for his reply. Neither I nor my hon. Friends the Members for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) and for Lewisham 12.58 pm West and Penge (Jim Dowd) are opposed to change or to greater efficiencies, but we are opposed to the destruction Dame Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab) of Lewisham hospital, which is a solvent, well-regarded (Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for trust that meets all its performance and financial standards. Health if he will make a statement on the trust special There is a fundamental question at stake. My right administrator’s report on South London Healthcare hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) NHS Trust and the NHS in south-east London. has made it clear that the powers associated with the failure regime under which the TSA acts were not The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt): intended to be used to encompass the services of other I have today published the final report of the trust hospitals. Yet in order to tackle the huge financial special administrator to South London Healthcare NHS deficit sustained by South London Healthcare Trust, Trust and laid it before Parliament. I received the report the TSA proposes to close Lewisham hospital’s accident yesterday and must now consider it carefully. I am and emergency services, including the acclaimed children’s under a statutory duty to make a decision by 1 February A and E, to end all medical and surgical emergency care on how best to secure a sustainable future for services and to demolish maternity services. He then proposes to provided by the trust. sell off half the hospital’s land. That cannot be justified. Each year around 120,000 people use Lewisham A and The trust special administrator began his appointment E, more than 30,000 children use the children’s A and E on 16 July. He published his draft report on 29 October and more than 4,000 babies are born in the hospital. and undertook a consultation on his draft recommendations There is no current capacity at any of the other hospitals between 2 November and 13 December. More than in the area to provide for those patients. 27,000 full consultation documents and 104,000 summary documents were distributed during the consultation These proposals amount to a major reconfiguration and sent to 2,000 locations across south-east London, by the back door, and they are opposed by virtually all including hospital sites, GP surgeries, libraries and town the health professionals in the area and by the people of halls. A dedicated website was established to support Lewisham. Does the Secretary of State believe that a the consultation, the TSA team arranged or attended reconfiguration of services in south-east London is more than 100 events or meetings and the consultation necessary? If he does, he needs to propose one with the generated more than 8,200 responses. relevant consideration for patient safety and health care standards and that meets his four tests. These proposals I understand the concerns of hon. Members and, do none of that and must be rejected. indeed, the people living in areas affected by the proposals, especially in Lewisham. They have a right to expect the highest quality NHS care, and I have a duty to ensure Mr Hunt: First, I want to recognise the right hon. that they receive it. However, they will understand that Lady’s real concerns about the proposals that have been it would not be appropriate for me to give a view on the made. I also recognise that they reflect the concerns of report’s recommendations only one day after receiving many of her constituents and, indeed, many people in it. To do so would be pre-emptive and would prejudice Lewisham. Her point about scope is one I replied to in my duty to consider the recommendations with care my letter to the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy and reach a decision that is in the best interests of the Burnham) before Christmas. I have taken legal advice people of south-east London. on that and been told that under the unsustainable provider regime, which the previous Government put However, I have made it clear that any solution would into law, an administrator must initially look at a trust’s need to satisfy the four tests outlined by the Prime defined area, but if they conclude that the defined area Minister and my predecessor, my right hon. Friend the is not in itself financially sustainable—they have a duty Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley), with to come back with a financially sustainable solution—and respect to any major reconfigurations: the changes must if it is necessary and consequential, they need to look at have support from GP commissioners; the public, patients a broader area. Of course there is interrelation between and local authorities must have been genuinely engaged different parts of the south-east London health care in the process; the recommendations must be underpinned economy. However, I will be getting fresh legal advice by a clear clinical evidence base; and the changes must on that point, because I recognise that it is extremely give patients a choice of good-quality providers. important. The challenges facing South London Healthcare NHS I welcome the fact that the right hon. Lady recognises Trust are complex and long standing, but to fail to that changes need to be made. I also hope that she address them is to penalise other parts of the NHS from understands that I have a duty to address this issue, which resources must be taken to finance the biggest which has affected hospitals in the South London deficit anywhere in the NHS. To date, it has not proved Healthcare Trust area for many years. The deficit of the possible to ensure that South London Healthcare NHS trust amounts to £207 million in the period since it was Trust can secure a sustainable future for its services set up, and that is money that must be taken away from within its existing configuration and organisational form. other parts of the NHS. I have a clear duty to address In appointing a special administrator to the trust, the that issue. I will not comment on specific proposals Government’s priority was to ensure that patients continue today, but I will be very happy to meet her and her to receive high-quality, sustainable NHS services, and I colleagues from Lewisham in order to hear from them will consider the special administrator’s report with that directly about their concerns. Indeed, I will be meeting objective in mind. the trust special administrator on 10 January so that 171 South London Healthcare NHS Trust8 JANUARY 2013 South London Healthcare NHS Trust 172

I can ask him any questions about his proposals before Panel? This process is attempting to rewrite the rules on I make my decision, which must be within 20 working making changes to hospital services, bypassing the intention days. of the House. It will send a shiver through any communities without a foundation trust, as it raises the prospect that Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): I remind my right their hospital will be able to be used as a pawn to solve hon. Friend that the Beckenham Beacon is not only problems in another. modern, but extremely central. I stress the incredible People in Lewisham feel a huge sense of unfairness value it could have in south London. I very much hope and I am sure that that will be shared by people across that the services currently provided there will increase, the House. The onus is on the Secretary of State to rather than decrease, at the end of this consultation. justify the changes and ensure that rules governing hospital changes are fair and respect the essential rights Mr Hunt: I thank my hon. Friend for again speaking of all communities to be fully consulted and involved in up for his constituents, as indeed I have done as a any decision affecting their services. constituency MP on many occasions. I want to reassure him that the four tests we have outlined for any major Mr Hunt: We have followed to the letter the processes changes to health care services would indeed apply to laid down in the law that the right hon. Gentleman’s the Beckenham Beacon and that, were there to be any Government passed. We followed the procedure extremely changes, we would need to be satisfied that they would carefully. This is the first time that the procedure has have strong, local, clinical support, that his constituents been invoked, so we have taken extra legal advice to had been properly consulted and that there was clear make sure that the processes followed strictly adhere to evidence that change would be beneficial. the letter of the law. I will continue to take legal advice, because I want to make sure that we absolutely follow the Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab): I apologise for missing wishes of the House in how we carry out the procedure. the start of proceedings on this urgent question. Unlike the right hon. Gentleman’s Government, we It has long been accepted that difficult decisions are have introduced new safeguards for any major changes needed to secure the sustainability of health services in made to NHS services. Those safeguards did not exist south-east London. That is why recommendations from when the right hon. Gentleman was Health Secretary. the review, “A Picture of Health”, were agreed under We have said that we will not accept any changes unless the previous Government. The trust special administrator there is proper consultation of the local population, has adopted many of those proposals, which we welcome. clear evidence and clear local clinical support. We made However, the review presented today goes way beyond that commitment in the four tests, which did not exist that and takes the NHS into new territory. It uses under his Government. powers passed by the previous Government in a way I will not accept any of the changes that the special that was never intended and, in so doing, sets a worrying administrator proposes unless I am satisfied that all four precedent whereby normal processes of public consultation tests have been met. They include proper local consultation, are short-circuited and back-door reconfigurations of because I consider that to be extremely important. hospital services are pushed through. The Health Act 2009, which I took through this House, states that Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con): The report mentions “the administrator must provide to the Secretary of State and an increase in elective surgery in Darent Valley hospital—my publish a draft report stating the action which the administrator local hospital, which is just over the Kent border with recommends the Secretary of State should take in relation to the south London. Although the hospital has enjoyed extra trust.” funding from the Government, it still has capacity In making recommendations that have a major impact issues. Will the Secretary of State ensure that the knock-on on another trust, is the Secretary of State not going issues are taken into account before he makes any beyond the powers this House has given to him? He has decision? acknowledged that he needs to commission fresh legal advice, which suggests to me that the legality of the Mr Hunt: My hon. Friend makes a very important process is in doubt. Will he publish all the legal advice point. One of the most important things that I have to he has been given so far and give a commitment that consider in the next 20 days is what he describes as the any new legal advice he commissions will be made knock-on impact of all the proposed changes. I have a available? duty to find a solution that is financially and clinically As this is a financially driven process, the people of sustainable for the South London Healthcare NHS Lewisham have justifiable concerns about whether it is Trust area. However, I need to consider the knock-on safe to close their A and E and downgrade the maternity effects everywhere else, including in Lewisham and my services. Is the Secretary of State satisfied that a clinical hon. Friend’s constituency. case has been established behind these major changes? As well as legal advice, I will be seeking clinical Given that all A and E departments in south London advice and want to make sure that my officials agree are currently overstretched and operating at full capacity, with the financial considerations made in the report. I people will need to be convinced that these changes will will consider all that advice in enormous detail before not put lives at risk. I come to any decisions. Finally, will the Secretary of State give a guarantee today to the people of Lewisham that, if he accepts the Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): I am grateful TSA’s recommendations, they will have the full consultation to the Secretary of State for agreeing to meet Members rights that come with any hospital reconfiguration, with Lewisham constituencies about this matter. including the ability to challenge the clinical case and, if Representatives of the Save Lewisham Hospital campaign, necessary, to refer it to the Independent Reconfiguration which is made up of local GPs, local hospital doctors 173 South London Healthcare NHS Trust8 JANUARY 2013 South London Healthcare NHS Trust 174

[Heidi Alexander] Mr Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab): The Secretary of State will understand that I have not and the public, are also very keen to meet the Secretary been able to read the entire trust special administrator’s of State to put our case directly to him about why it is report in the hour or so I have had access to it. However, important to retain a full, admitting A and E and full while I was reading the report, it became clear that a maternity service at Lewisham. Will he agree to meet great deal of concern was expressed during the consultation them? about the implementation of the proposals. Indeed, the report highlights the fact that following previous Mr Hunt: I want to meet colleagues from the House reorganisations, costs have increased rather than reduced but, as I am sure the hon. Lady will understand, I want as a result of the very process of reorganisation. to be careful not to restart the whole consultation Given those worries, will the Secretary of State agree process that has been happening in what I believe is a to meet representatives from other boroughs, who are very thorough way in the past few months. However, equally concerned? I remind him that he declined my one of the things that I will be considering very carefully— request for a meeting on the trust special administrator’s and I will listen to any points that the hon. Lady makes draft report; I hope he will not decline to meet now that when I meet her—is whether the consultation has been we have the full report. In particular, will he consider done properly, as it needs to be done and as was the implications for patient care and services of a major intended by the legislation. I will not accept any changes reorganisation, which can be disruptive and fail to unless I am satisfied on that point. deliver the savings envisaged? Dame Tessa Jowell (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab): I welcome the Secretary of State’s apparently Mr Hunt: I heed absolutely the right hon. Gentleman’s open-minded approach to the proposals, which have warning that reorganisations are not always the panacea caused enormous clinical alarm in our hospitals as well that they are made out to be. We need to be absolutely as local concern. clear that, if we accept the proposals, they will deliver a Two particular issues affect my constituents and those sustainable, robust and clinically sound outcome for the of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for right hon. Gentleman’s and neighbouring constituents, Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman) in relation to as the trust special administrator believes they will. I King’s College hospital. I ask the Secretary of State to shall be delighted if the right hon. Gentleman attends take them seriously. First, should the proposed closures the meeting with other MPs affected by the proposal. at Lewisham hospital go ahead, that will impact on the I shall hear what he has to say further at that meeting. King’s College hospital paediatric A and E, which is already overstretched; the staff have enormous concern Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): The Secretary of State about their ability to meet any additional demand. has to recognise the serious contradictions between the Secondly, will the Secretary of State agree that discussions proposals in the trust special administrator’s report and currently under way to merge the managements of King’s the Conservative manifesto before the last general election. College hospital with those of Guy’s and St Thomas’s If he were to accept the proposals, particularly in relation should be suspended while the extensive reorganisation to A and E, that would be a serious betrayal of promises threatens the stability of a number of hospitals? If they made to the electorate. There are also the changes were to go ahead in parallel, that would risk engulfing expected from the “A Picture of Health” proposals for our hospitals with preoccupations about reorganisation Queen Mary’s hospital in Sidcup in relation to overnight rather than there being a focus from our world-class elective surgery. How much is the Secretary of State hospital staff in south London on treating the patients bound by the specific promises made in the Conservative that we represent. manifesto before the election when it comes to making decision on the report? Mr Hunt: The right hon. Lady makes two important points. As she knows, I visited King’s College hospital just before Christmas and was incredibly impressed by Mr Hunt: We were concerned in the run-up to the what I saw. I visited the geriatric ward and was really last election at the pace and scale of many of the impressed, and I am sure that the paediatric service is reconfigurations pursued by the last Government. outstanding as well. It came across to me as an extremely That is why when we came into office we paused the well run hospital. I will, of course, make sure that I reconfigurations and introduced the four tests—an consider the impact of the changes proposed by the additional safeguard to make sure that reconfigurations trust special administrator on King’s, just as I will were not done without local clinical support. consider the impact on all surrounding hospitals. We wanted to avoid what had happened so often, With respect to the merger proposals, because the including in my own constituency—an alliance of Health legislation requires me to come to a decision within Ministers and NHS managers riding roughshod over 20 working days, the right hon. Lady will find that I what local people wanted. We wanted to stop that, so have to make and publish my decision quickly enough we put in place new systems. I hope that the hon. to ensure that any impact from the changes is properly Gentleman will be comforted by the robustness and considered by the people pursuing the possibility of a thoroughness of the processes that we are now going merger between King’s, Guy’s and Tommy’s. through. 175 8 JANUARY 2013 EU Fisheries Negotiations 176

EU Fisheries Negotiations Through the night the UK team battled hard to reach an agreement that ensures the long-term sustainability of fish stocks while providing short-term catching 1.19 pm opportunities for our fishing industry. The package we secured helps all sectors of the industry, large and TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforEnvironment, small, and delivers benefits for all parts of the UK—north, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): I represented south, east and west. It was a good result for the UK the UK at the fisheries part of the Agriculture and fleet and for sustainable exploitation of the fish on Fisheries Council in Brussels on 18 to 20 December. which our fishermen depend. It also supports our wider Richard Lochhead, Michelle O’Neill and Alun Davies objectives on the reform of the common fisheries policy, attended for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales and it was a timely coincidence that the European respectively. Parliament was voting on CFP reform at the same time that the annual quota negotiations were taking place. I The annual December round of negotiations for total was very pleased that ambitious provisions to eliminate allowable catches, or TACs, and quotas is a difficult discards, set fishing rates sustainably and allow for regional process, and this year was particularly challenging. UK decision making were voted through. This was an important fishermen were facing automatic 25% reductions in the step forward for the reform process, and it bodes well time they can spend at sea, as well as significant decreases that the final package we will negotiate this year will in TACs and quotas. I entered this year’s negotiation include the radical reforms we all agree are needed. clear in my mind that decisions on quotas or on days spent at sea need to be based on three clear principles: following scientific advice, sustainability, and the need 1.24 pm for continued discard reduction. We adhered to these Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab): I thank the principles throughout, and I am pleased to report to the Minister for advance sight of his statement. House that the UK Government secured a deal that was I sympathise with the Minister for being forced to sit good for the health of our seas and for the UK fishing through the night at the Fisheries Council at the end of industry. last year in what I am confident he would describe as a We secured agreement to end automatic reductions Kafkaesque experience. Does he agree that our fishing to the number of days fishermen can spend at sea, industry deserves better than this undignified and often overcoming legal obstacles in the cod recovery plan. chaotic annual round of negotiations each December? The number of available days in 2013 will be at the same More to the point, does he agree that public and industry level as 2012, giving fishermen the time to fish sustainably, confidence in the negotiation framework would be enhanced avoiding discards and juvenile fish. The quota for North by a substantial degree of transparency? By holding sea cod in 2013 will be decided during the EU-Norway meetings behind closed doors, the Council prevents us negotiations next week. We removed the requirement from evaluating the logic behind its decisions. What for this to be based on an automatic 20% reduction, measures does the Minister plan in future to open up instead enabling the quota to be set on the basis of these negotiations to a healthy dose of public scrutiny? scientific evidence. Reflecting the latest science, the UK We are at a critical point for fisheries management, is calling for a rollover of the TAC to decrease discards, and common fisheries policy reform is at the top of the increase the likelihood of achieving maximum sustainable agenda. May I wish the Minister every success during yield by 2015, and improve the stock biomass. This the EU- Norway negotiations on the North sea cod outcome, together with our success in removing proposed quota next week? Labour Members welcome the news restrictions on discard reduction programmes, means that automatic cuts to the North sea cod quota and a that our highly successful and innovative catch quota reduction in the number of fishing days at sea have been scheme, which effectively eliminates discards, can continue avoided. Given public outrage at the shameful waste of to grow and develop this year. discards, any change in policy that increased discards would have been unacceptable. Is the Minister aware of On fish quotas, where the scientific evidence showed concerns within the fishing industry that the vote by the that significant cuts in quota were necessary for the Council of Ministers to amend the more problematic health of the stock, we accepted them—for example, in parts of the cod management plan could be subject to the case of North sea nephrops, Celtic sea herring and legal challenge from the European Parliament? Can he Rockall haddock—but where they were not justified we guarantee that the Council’s vote will not be overruled successfully managed to fight huge cuts to quotas across by the outcome of such a legal challenge? a number of different fish stocks. The proposed cuts to quotas were often not supported by the available evidence The Minister told the House that proposed cuts to and would have led to an increase in the discarding of quotas were “often not supported by the available evidence”. perfectly edible fish. Successes included mitigating a Will he give us examples? Can he confirm that despite 55% cut in south-west haddock to 15%, a 48% cut in the Council’s, and his own, public support for evidence- west of Scotland haddock to 30%, and overturning a based policy-making, about half of all quotas have 12% cut to a 6% increase in nephrops around Northern been set above levels advised by the International Council Ireland. Because a number of stocks are improving, we for the Exploration of the Sea? He reported that the were able to increase quotas for them this year. For Council was able to increase quotas for those stocks example, we secured increases in quota for plaice and that are improving. Can he confirm to the House that sole in the channel, nephrops in the west of Scotland, all these quota increases were unambiguously supported and cod and whiting in the south-west. We are hoping and recommended by the scientific evidence? to secure increases in many of the North sea stocks, in What discussions, if any, took place at Council regarding line with the scientific advice, as part of the EU-Norway the ongoing dispute between UK and Icelandic fishermen discussions next week. on disputed north-east Atlantic mackerel stock? Was 177 EU Fisheries Negotiations8 JANUARY 2013 EU Fisheries Negotiations 178

[Mr Tom Harris] The hon. Gentleman asked about the advice of the International Council for the Exploration of the Sea. the Minister personally involved in any discussions on ICES looks at individual fish stocks rather than, as is the possible enforcement of EU sanctions against Iceland the case in this country, mixed fisheries, so we do apply and the Faroe Islands, and will he update the House on other scientific advice. On cod, we got ICES to agree this crucial issue? that our rationale was right that if we had progressed Is the Minister fully aware of the increasing importance down the route proposed by the Commission, it would to Scottish processing plants of the blue whiting quota, have resulted in more discards. and will he bear this in mind as he approaches the EU Mackerel remains our absolute priority. It is this negotiations with Norway next week? Total allowable country’s biggest by-value catch and I am determined catch for blue whiting increased significantly in 2012 to do all we can to get Iceland and the Faroes back to but is still constrained by our commitment to swap the negotiating table and find a solution. If not, sanctions quotas for North sea cod with Norway—a move that remain on the table. largely benefits Spain and Portugal. I will write to the hon. Gentleman about blue whiting, Lastly, given the importance to these annual negotiations because that is a more technical issue. of quota distribution within the EU, will the Minister We inherited an extraordinary situation whereby we update the House on when he expects to be able to do not know who owns quota in this country, which is publish the full, comprehensive and up-to-date list of daft. We have set about our determination to resolve who owns the UK fishing quota, long promised by this that issue this year, so I hope that at some point in 2013 Government? we will be able to explain to the House whether or not I welcome the Minister’s statement and wish him every quota is actually owned by football clubs and celebrities, success in future negotiations. So long as he continues as is constantly made clear to me. We have yet to find to represent the fight for the sustainability of the UK’s out and are working hard to achieve that. fishing industry and of our vital natural resource, he will continue to enjoy our conditional support. Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): I congratulate the Fisheries Minister on enduring the Richard Benyon: I would expect nothing less from the final throes of an out-of-date policy. Could he assure hon. Gentleman. the House that cod quota will be extended to our I thank the hon. Gentleman for his sympathy about hard-pressed, initial under-10 metre fleet? That is extremely the absurd and ridiculous processes that one has to go important. through. With the reform of the common fisheries On the common fisheries policy, it is music to the ears policy, we have a golden opportunity to end some of the of fishermen that we are proceeding on the grounds of absurdity, if not all of it. We can cease the ridiculous sustainability, sound scientific advice and, indeed, a charade of a Minister like me discussing fishing net discard policy that should work. Will he assure the sizes with a Commission official perhaps 1,000 miles House that regional control will amount to control by from where the net will be used. That is a technical him and his colleagues for the North sea fishermen and, matter that should be decided locally with fishermen. indeed, by the fishermen and the regional advisory That is why our regionalisation agenda as part of the councils themselves? CFP reform is so important. The system can also be improved through better Richard Benyon: I thank my hon. Friend for her long-term management plans. The cod recovery plan is remarks. Yes, I can confirm that cod is an important a bad plan, but that should not dissuade us from stock for the inshore fleet as well as for others. It is pushing for more long-term management plans that are welcome that cod stocks are increasing. That is in so scientifically based and worked through with the industry, small part thanks to the work being done by fishermen taking away from politicians the late-night horse trading in all sectors to improve the biomass of this important and making the system much more evidence based. We staple of our diet. It is not entirely good news—there want to see more of that. are still cuts to cod quotas in some areas—but the The hon. Gentleman raised an issue about cod. Where general trend is increasing. We need to reflect on the cod effort continues to be reduced, the incentive is then fact that 1 million tonnes of cod will be caught off for fishermen to fish as soon as possible after leaving Norway and in the North sea this year. This stock is port, and that might not be the most sustainable place improving dramatically not very far from us. It is not for them to catch fish—it might be where cod are improving quickly enough, but we are working hard to spawning or where there are more juvenile fish. We achieve that. want to encourage them to go to the places where there I agree with my hon. Friend that sustainability is are the larger fish that they can target sustainably. important, not just because we mind about the health of The hon. Gentleman asked whether this will be subject our seas, but because we mind about the future of our to a legal challenge. It may well be—these things happen. fishing industry. We want an increased biomass and it is I was very clear that I did not want the livelihoods of through increased stocks that more businesses will progress our fishermen or the sustainability of our seas to be the and become more profitable. totemic issue on which inter-institutional rivalries would I absolutely concur with my hon. Friend’s comments be sorted out. Therefore, the decision we took to support on regional management. My right hon. Friend the the presidency in sorting out this element of the cod Secretary of State has been banging this drum for a recovery plan was the right one. It may well end up in long time. We want fully documented fisheries where court and I cannot guarantee the result, but we have the technical measures that are currently decided by a secured a sensible solution for this year. top-down centralised system are decided locally on an 179 EU Fisheries Negotiations8 JANUARY 2013 EU Fisheries Negotiations 180 ecosystem basis, so that in an area such as the North sea Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): The Minister it is the countries that actually fish in it that will decide will recall that I have called on a number of occasions how it is managed. for the abolition of the common fisheries policy and for the Government to press that on European colleagues. Mr Frank Doran (Aberdeen North) (Lab): I join in I still believe that we should do that. Would it not be congratulating the Minister on this very good result sensible to return to the national limits that we used to that is obviously welcomed by the fishing industry. He is have, so that we can manage our fish stocks and monitor well aware of the trials that are taking place in Scotland our fishing? That is how the Norwegians do it, and their to improve discards. The Scottish Fishermen’s Federation fisheries are much better than ours. is anxious that they progress as quickly as possible and The question that I really want to ask relates to feel that it would be extremely beneficial to have an Spain, which has in the past refused to give information extra quota of fish specifically to pursue the research. Is about its fishing. Indeed, there have been suggestions the Minister prepared to argue for that in next week’s that it is landing black fish illegally. Is Spain being Norway discussions? properly regulated now? Richard Benyon: What we managed to achieve was to get the argument understood. We are not talking about Richard Benyon: Sadly Spain is not alone in having more mortality; we are talking about landing more fish had problems in the past with black fish landings. We that would otherwise be discarded. The hon. Gentleman have to make sure that all houses are in order when we is right to say that fishermen from his part of the world criticise countries for failing to obey the rules. I want to have led the way on a whole range of measures. Some make it absolutely clear that if people land black fish— have been technical and have involved their gear, while illegal, unreported and unregulated landings of fish—they others have involved real-time closures, but the really are stealing those fish from our fishermen. People such important scheme is the catch quota scheme, which has as the hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) involved fully documented fisheries. The scheme has have made that important point consistently. been praised from the commissioner downwards as the The hon. Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) way forward. We want it to become the norm and, in is consistent in his view of the common fisheries policy. many respects, for it to be much extended, because I certainly would not have started from this point, and I under that scheme practically no cod will be discarded think that most Members would agree with that. As we from vessels this year. That is an incredible achievement develop the policy further, we need to recognise that the by those fishermen and the people who have worked “common” part of the common fisheries policy is not with them on such schemes, and we want to see more of necessarily wrong. We need to manage this on an ecosystem that. basis. Fish may spawn in one country’s waters and then swim to those of another country. They do not have Mr Speaker: I congratulate the hon. Member for passports and we need to manage the situation on a sea Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) on his CBE basin basis, and that is where our regionalisation agenda in the new year’s honours list. I also congratulate his is going. hon. Friend the hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke) on her OBE in the same Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): Does list. my hon. Friend agree that the Commission’s draconian and inflexible stance, particularly on stocks with a Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): Thank precautionary, rather than an analytical, TAC, is a clear you, Mr Speaker. I, too, congratulate the Minister on reason why management and decision making should the tremendous progress that has been made on be devolved to the local nation states that have a real regionalisation. It has long been an ambition of the UK interest in the sea basin area? Will he argue for that in Government that more decision making and management the CFP review negotiations? of the common fisheries policy be done locally. Could he give us other examples of how this will benefit the UK fleet and ensure that it has a happy future? Richard Benyon: I thank my hon. Friend for her continued interest in this issue. Her knowledge is important Richard Benyon: I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend in guiding us and making sure that we are on this on his recent honour. agenda. I assure her that we are. I want fishermen from her part of the world to take responsibility for the Many benefits can be achieved from proper, effective detailed management, technical measures and other regionalisation. Ending the top-down, centralised control sustainability issues that we require of them, rather of small and detailed technical measures is an important than feeling that yet another layer of control is being way forward. Ensuring that local fishermen work with imposed on them. That is what is driving people out of scientists and developing the concept that every single the industry and making fishermen feel that they do not vessel is a scientific platform can only be achieved want their children or grandchildren to go into their locally. We cannot achieve what we want to achieve on industry.I am determined to see a degree of regionalisation discards without regionalisation. It has been a real that is effective in delivering that. battle to push this through the Council and other forums. I am really pleased that the fisheries committee of the European Parliament recognises this. We now Several hon. Members rose— have to make sure that it is followed through in the bizarre processes that we have to go through for the rest Mr Speaker: Order. I am sorry to tell the House that of the year, in order to ensure meaningful reform. we have got through only five questions in nine minutes I assure my hon. Friend that this is a priority for us. of Back-Bench time, which is very slow progress. We 181 EU Fisheries Negotiations8 JANUARY 2013 EU Fisheries Negotiations 182

[Mr Speaker] Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con): I congratulate the Minister on behalf of myself and the fishermen of need to speed up, I am afraid, if we are to accommodate Ramsgate. Will he elaborate on the impact of the settlement colleagues and move on to the next business in a timely on the under-10 metre fleet, in particular in the channel? fashion. Richard Benyon: We achieved an increase in the quotas Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the Minister for sole and plaice in my hon. Friend’s area and a for his hard work and effort on behalf of the fishing roll-over of the sprat quota, which was due for a big cut. industry, especially in Northern Ireland, and for working Those are all valuable fisheries for her constituents. I with the Minister in Northern Ireland. Along with am gratified that fishermen in her area are part of our Diane Dodds, I met the Minister the day before he went trial for more financial support for the under-10 metre to Brussels to put the case for the Northern Ireland fleet in the coming year. fishing sector. The 6% increase in nephrops is most welcome, especially for the Northern Ireland fishing Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): There fleet. What plans does he have to address the growing is much to welcome in the Minister’s statement. I commend problems associated with Irish sea cod, particularly in him and the devolved Ministers for their efforts in area 7, and the assertion of the Scientific, Technical and recent weeks. I, too, want to press the Minister on the Economic Committee for Fisheries that science suffers mackerel dispute, which is still at an impasse. Will he from annual TAC reductions? give an assurance that he will reject the Commission’s proposals for reductions in mackerel quotas next week Richard Benyon: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s at the EU-Norway talks, because that would simply concerns. I am pleased with where we got to on nephrops. reward Iceland and the Faroes for destructive overfishing On the technical issue of Irish sea cod, I think that we and fail to pull them back to the negotiating table? can slightly ameliorate the impact of the cut. Working Richard Benyon: I am sure that the hon. Lady, like with fishermen in his constituency and the STECF, I me, wants to ensure that we stay resolute in our hope that we can move the argument forward. Great determination to follow the science. We have a political work is being done by fishermen in Northern Ireland on issue to sort out with the mackerel problem and that selectivity, and I encourage that. I want to achieve the can be done only by getting Iceland and the Faroes holy grail of fisheries management, which we are achieving back round the table. I do not want the United Kingdom elsewhere: catching less and landing more. We can do that. to fish the last mackerel out of the sea. We want to ensure that the stock remains sustainable. I feel very Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): My constituency unhappy about the impact that this situation could be and neighbouring Grimsby broadly welcome the having on her constituents and on those whom I have negotiations and, in particular, the moves towards met in Lerwick and in other places where mackerel is an regionalisation. However, the Minister will be aware important fishery. We want to ensure that Iceland and that there are concerns that the negotiations between the Faroes play ball, but we cannot allow this stock to the EU and Iceland over mackerel catches may lead to be fished unsustainably. lower imports into this country, which are vital to the Grimsby-based industry. Will he give the industry in my Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): constituency some reassurance? I thank my hon. Friend for all that he has tried to do for the under-10 metre fleet. Will he say more about how Richard Benyon: I visited my hon. Friend’s region not the “non-sector” will be affected by the settlement, in long before Christmas and that point was made very particular people fishing out of Harwich, Brightlingsea clear to me. I recognise that we have a very valuable and Wivenhoe, a fleet that he knows well? processing industry that we want to protect. In large part, it is dependent on fish from Iceland. If sanctions Richard Benyon: As I have said, there is good news for are brought in against Iceland, we want to ensure that the under-10 metre fleet, which is particularly effective they are proportionate. We think we can exert some at targeting stocks such as sole and plaice. There is quite influence in this area and get Iceland back to the table, a large increase in the plaice quota and we managed to so that we can start seeing proper management of a avoid a big cut in other stocks by presenting the science stock that swims across a vast area that is the responsibility and working with my hon. Friend’s constituents who of many countries. fish sustainably. The under-10 metre fleet can feel proud of their contribution towards the sustainability of our Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): fishing industry and I commend those in his constituency On behalf of the Scottish and UK fishing industries, for that. may I congratulate the Minister on a job well done? Will he give the House an assessment of whether Scotland’s Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ fishermen would have benefited from having a separate Co-op): The Minister has taken a sensible approach to delegation or whether we are better together? the dispute over mackerel with Iceland and the Faroes. In the discussions that he and his colleagues have with Richard Benyon: My view is that Scotland’s fishermen them, will he ensure that the point is made that they will are best represented as part of a large, 29-vote member be the biggest losers if there is an unsustainable approach of the European Union. That is true of a lot of other to mackerel fishing in the North sea? It may be attractive interests. I cannot do the maths off the top of my head to Iceland to get immediate economic returns from the to work out how many votes Scotland would have as an mackerel stock, given its current economic situation, independent state, but I think that it is best served by but it would not be in that country’s interest to see the being part of the United Kingdom in these negotiations. stock diminished beyond recognition. 183 EU Fisheries Negotiations8 JANUARY 2013 EU Fisheries Negotiations 184

Richard Benyon: There is a perfectly acceptable from other countries entering the restricted areas in our international method for resolving these disputes, but it waters and fishing in a way that our fishermen cannot. requires countries such as Iceland to take part in the We must have the matter agreed at European level, and process. We remain willing to discuss the matter with I have already had discussions with my French counterpart them in an open and meaningful way. The ball is in their on it. We will have further discussions to ensure that it is court. In the meantime, this is a difficult time for the completely clear at every level that we are not imposing industry, with the threat to the viability of the pelagic a restriction on ourselves that will not be recognised by fleet. I assure the hon. Gentleman that we remain other countries. absolutely committed to ensuring that bad practice is not rewarded and that we are working hard to achieve a George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con): I happy solution to this problem. welcome the Minister’s success in getting the scientific evidence heard, particularly when it comes to haddock Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): I congratulate in the south-west. Why were the Commission’s original the Minister on securing an increase in the quotas for proposals so far wide of the mark, and why is it apparently cod and whiting in the south-west and for plaice and so dysfunctional on the issue and so deaf to the evidence? sole in the channel. How quickly does he think it will be possible to roll out the catch quota scheme to further Richard Benyon: The issue of haddock in the south-west eliminate discards? is a product of the situation that I mentioned earlier, whereby the International Council for the Exploration Richard Benyon: I was really pleased that fishermen of the Sea simply examines one stock on its own. In in my hon. Friend’s constituency entered the scheme most of the UK waters we have mixed fisheries, and last year. I want many more vessels to do so, because there is a danger that we can—I have already used this fully documented fisheries are the only way forward, expression in Committee today—make the perfect the not only to have proper management of our fisheries, enemy of the good. If we are tied to one species, in this but to address the concerns of all our constituents—even case a “choke species”, it can result in more discards mine inland—who are affronted by the idea of perfectly and worsen the sustainability of wider stocks. That was edible fish being thrown away. Through schemes such as why we argued successfully for a reduction in the cut. the catch quota scheme we can give assurances to our consumers and make life better for our fishermen, who are landing more and being better rewarded for it. This Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): I am sure is an entirely virtuous circle. that the fishermen who fish in Sole bay will be delighted by the increase in eastern channel sole, as will those in Southwold, Orford, Sizewell and elsewhere in my Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): I, too, congratulate constituency.Does the Minister share my concern, though, the Minister on his work in the negotiations before about the comments of the chief executive of the New Christmas and over the past two and a half years on Under Ten Fishermen’s Association that the deal was behalf of the under-10 metre fleet. There is concern that damaging, when it has actually proved a lifeline for in future work on the reallocation of quota, the under-10s many of our coastal fishermen? will be compromised by not having kept records. Will he confirm that he will work with the industry to address that concern? Richard Benyon: I think the chief executive’s comments were a pity, because if he had looked closely at what we Richard Benyon: I hope my hon. Friend would concede achieved he would have seen an improved prospect for that I am on record as having faced criticism from some the year ahead across all sectors and around all our quarters for reallocating quota to the under-10 metre coasts. That includes some valuable stocks that are of sector. I strongly believe that fishing opportunity is a particular interest to his members, so I accept my hon. national resource, and this rather bizarre business is Friend’s point. about the allocation of that national resource. I firmly believe that the under-10 metre sector is important Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con): socially as well as economically, and I will continue to May I add to the chorus of congratulations from Members do what I can to make its life better. on both sides of the House on the Minister’s his genuine achievements? In particular, the increase in the nephrops Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): I warmly congratulate quota will be most welcome in Fleetwood and is a real my hon. Friend the Minister on both what he has success. Now that he is back, may I ask him to keep an achieved and the manner in which he has conducted the eye on the new wind farm applications in the Irish sea negotiations. He mentioned the context of the common so that there might be some space left for my local fisheries policy reform. Will he reassure the House that fishermen to catch the new quota? his counterparts in Europe will respect the fact that we are introducing marine conservation zones that extend Richard Benyon: My hon. Friend may try you, beyond the six and 12-mile limits, to ensure that British Mr Speaker, but I listened to what he said. I want to fishermen are not constrained in areas where foreign ensure that we get away from the silo mentality in vessels are not? managing our fisheries of talking about fishermen in one forum, conservation in another and other marine Richard Benyon: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, activities in a third. Following the Marine and Coastal and that is really important. I am not in the business of Access Act 2009, we are moving towards much more proposing restrictions for our vessels only to see vessels holistic management of our seas, which is right. 185 8 JANUARY 2013 Regulation of Bailiffs 186

Regulation of Bailiffs In updating the standards, the Ministry of Justice consulted only two organisations, compared with the Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order original 16. Anyone looking for a meaningful change in No. 23) standards for bailiffs must be extremely disappointed. Based on the Ministry’s last announcement regarding its efforts to address bailiff reform, in my eyes there 1.54 pm is reason to be pessimistic about the Government’s Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): I beg forthcoming proposals. Nevertheless, I wish to take this to move, opportunity to raise a number of recommendations that have been made, in the hope that the Ministry will That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require the Secretary of State to introduce a regulatory regime for bailiffs which would take them into consideration. preclude the making of multiple fee charges without explanation; The first recommendation is to eliminate the practice to introduce guidelines for dealing with potentially vulnerable of making multiple fee charges for a single visit without debtors; and for connected purposes. explanation. I believe that in calling for that, I am Concerns about the practices of bailiffs are not new, asking for something modest. The local government nor has the issue simply gone ignored. Governments ombudsman has recognised that the practice is legal have been aware of the concerns for decades. Action on and not uncommon, but she has also ruled that in many the matter, however, has proved slow at best. I do not cases it is disproportionate. She has urged councils to wish to make a party political issue of it, and I am enter into new contracts with bailiffs preventing multiple aware of cross-party concerns about bailiff practices. fee charging. Before I continue, I wish to thank the Coventry Evening An example from Coventry might be helpful. Coventry Telegraph for the investigative work that it has undertaken council’s hired bailiffs recently sent 10 threatening letters into the matter. Many of my examples have been drawn in two days demanding that a disabled woman pay her from the paper’s investigation. debts in full immediately or face the loss of her possessions. Those of us wanting reform of the bailiff system That was despite her already having begun a payment were given hope when, in February last year, the plan. The bailiffs charged her five lots of £95 for a single Government announced a consultation on bailiff reform. visit to her house, which cannot be right, reasonable or The consultation duly went ahead and closed in May fair. 2012. I am aware of the disappointment felt by many in There are many reports of bailiffs charging multiple the industry regarding the scope of the consultation, fees for a single visit or bill, and the debt escalates but many have been optimistic that it could lead to real rapidly. Such practice is too prevalent for us to continue change. However, the report on the consultation was relying on individual contracts with private bailiff firms. due to be published in October. As might be expected, Let me reiterate that such cases are not unique to every month that passes with no word from the Government Coventry council and it has not behaved illegally. I hope, diminishes hope about their commitment to the issue. I however, that all hon. Members will agree that such understand that the report is due to be published this things should not be allowed to happen. month, and I very much hope that that will be the case. We are failing vulnerable people facing bailiff action. I therefore want the House to signal to the Ministry of A cancer patient in Coventry missed just two council Justice that we place great importance on bailiff reform. tax payments before receiving a court summons and a Another reason for the lack of faith in the forthcoming demand for the full up-front payment, together with the report is that the Department in charge consulted threat that her home possessions might be taken away. 16 organisations and introduced the national standards The bailiffs added another £200 costs and appear to for enforcement agents in 2002. Those standards remained have wrongly threatened her with prison. In that case, unchanged for nine years and were clearly in need of the bailiff firm seems to have accepted that it failed updating. Many people were therefore delighted when in the guideline “duty” on bailiffs to hand cases back the then Justice Minister, the hon. Member for Huntingdon to councils as soon as any potential for vulnerable (Mr Djanogly), announced last January that the national circumstances is identified, so that councils may handle standards had been updated. He said that the voluntary such cases more sensitively.There are many other examples code had been tightened to protect people from rogue from my constituency of vulnerable people trying bailiffs, and stated: desperately to persuade private bailiffs of their situation “Councils and other authorities will adopt the standards”. but simply being ignored. Such cases include a women who was suffering from severe depression and deemed I do not know on what basis he could make those claims, at risk of suicide. given that the standards remain voluntary. National standards for enforcement agents make clear What is most concerning, however, is that on close that bailiffs should exercise discretion when dealing inspection of the updated standards, it appears that only with debtors who may be vulnerable. The standards six sentences were added to the original standards. Only state that potentially vulnerable people include those one sentence was changed in the section on information with a disability, but do not mention debtors who have and confidentiality, adding the words mental health difficulties or who may be vulnerable by “avoiding unnecessary and unhelpful use of legal and technical virtue of other difficulties—for example, those facing language”. homelessness. No changes were made under the headings “Complaints/ A bailiff might be the first person in the process to Discipline”, “Vulnerable situations” or “Goods”. I was realise that a debtor is vulnerable, and we need much also shocked to discover that most of the new material closer regulation of how to handle vulnerable debtors had been taken almost word for word from the new than currently exists. Private bailiff firms must be forced Office of Fair Trading debt collection guidance. to inform councils of vulnerable cases. At the moment, 187 Regulation of Bailiffs 8 JANUARY 2013 188 administrative oversights, mistakes and unclear protocol Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill can result in vulnerable people becoming the victims of Second Reading aggressive or inept practice by bailiffs. I therefore hope to see a drastic change to the guidelines on how vulnerable people are treated in our private bailiff system, and I Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Before I call hope that all hon. Members will agree on the need for the Secretary of State to move the Second Reading change. debate, I inform the House that the amendment has been selected. This issue was discussed before Christmas in another place during a debate on an amendment to the Crime and Courts Bill, and I urge the Government to take on 2.5 pm board the many sensible and important points made The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain then, particularly regarding a full regulatory system Duncan Smith): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read for bailiffs. I call on the Government to consider the a Second time. recommendations in the recent local government ombudsman report, “Taking possession: councils’ use The Bill, which stands in my name and that of my of bailiffs for local debt collection”. The report covers a right hon. and hon. Friends, is about the renewal of number of issues and provides recommendations based what I believe is a principled welfare state based on on the ombudsman’s considerable experience of complaints. affordability, integrity and fairness. For the convenience of the House, let me explain that I intend briefly to run In conclusion, I appreciate the importance of debt through the features of the Bill, and I will then open up collection to councils’ revenues, particularly in these the debate to take interventions and deal with the times of austerity. Faced with cuts to council budgets, amendment. Coventry council has set a target under the bailiffs’ contract to reduce council tax debts from previous years This Government inherited from the previous by about 40%, and many other councils are in similar Government an unsustainable and costly system, and a situations. We can therefore expect private bailiff firms welfare state that I believe delivered poor social outcomes, to continue to be necessary to a certain extent, but we trapping people in dependency, as well as a poor deal should make whatever arrangements are necessary to for Britain’s taxpayers. My opposite number, the right prevent the worst practices—whether due to incompetence hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne), or greed—such as multiple fee-charging, and protect needs no reminder of that as it was he who, when we the most vulnerable in society at an extremely distressing arrived in government, told us that there was no money time. I hope that the Government will take my comments left. That was the result of a recession that was later on board in the upcoming report, and that we will discovered by the Office for Budget Responsibility to be finally see radical change to our mediaeval bailiff system. deeper and sharper than anyone thought. The original I hope we will achieve a system that is reasonable, legal estimate— and proportionate, and I commend my Bill to the House. Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab) Question put and agreed to. rose— Ordered, That Mr Jim Cunningham, Thomas Docherty, Mr Duncan Smith: I will give way in a moment. I am Mr Geoffrey Robinson, Grahame M. Morris, Mr Tom in the business of having the right hon. Gentleman Clarke, Sir Bob Russell and Mr David Winnick present justify his own position so I will be happy to give him the Bill. a chance, but let me finish this point. The previous Mr Jim Cunningham accordingly presented the Bill. Government originally claimed that the shrinkage in the economy was 5.8%. In fact, as the OBR later pointed Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on out, at 6.3% the shrinkage was deeper than we had ever Friday 25 January, and to be printed (Bill 117). seen before—the biggest shrinkage in the economy since world war two.

Mr Byrne: I am grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way so early in the debate. Will he confirm to the House that on his watch the welfare bill has risen nearly £14 billion higher than anticipated?

Mr Duncan Smith: I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman raises that point because a huge part of that is spending on pensions. He will know that we are spending more on pensions and provide a better deal for pensioners than his Government ever did. Until this Bill, the Government continued to raise welfare payments in line with inflation; this is the first time that we propose not to do so. That will take effect through the uprating order that should be laid before Parliament later this month. The Bill provides that discretionary working age benefits and tax credits will be uprated by 1% for a further two years in the tax years 2014-15 and 2015-16, if prices have risen by at least 1%. The schedule to the Bill sets out the benefit payments and tax credits 189 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 190

[Mr Duncan Smith] Mr Byrne: It is significant that the Secretary of State has just admitted for the first time that welfare spending in question, which are listed in full in the explanatory on his watch is rising £14 billion higher than projected. memorandum. By providing for those changes in legislation, Will he go a step further and confirm his understanding we can provide certainty for taxpayers, the markets and of the OBR figures that show that the claimant count claimants. is forecast to rise by a third of a million more than A number of exceptions to the Bill are not included, anticipated over the next few years? Will he admit that, and a number of benefits remain outside the scope of yesorno? the Bill. We are maintaining our commitment to the triple lock so that the basic state pension will rise by Mr Duncan Smith: I should remind the right hon. 2.5%. In April 2013, pensioners will see an increase of Gentleman that the claimant count was forecast to rise £2.70 on last year—far more than the derisory 75p that but has fallen throughout all those forecasts. I know it is Labour gave them in 2000—and I stress again that we inconvenient for the Opposition, who would rather introduced the triple lock to guarantee that. Crucially, unemployment rose than fell, but unemployment is we are also protecting disabled people and carers. Benefits falling. Many countries in Europe would give their eye to cover the added costs faced by these groups will teeth for the employment figures in this country. continue to be linked to price inflation. Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): On disabled people, paragraph 24 of the Secretary of State’s impact assessment, Several hon. Members rose— which has just been published, states: “Nevertheless, despite this protection…those households where Mr Duncan Smith: I will give way in a moment. That someone describes themselves as disabled, (under the DDA definition) includes carer’s allowance, disability living allowance, some of whom will not be eligible for a disability benefit, are and new personal independence payments, as well as more likely to be affected than those where there is not a person” premiums paid to disabled people receiving working in that category. age benefits such as the disability additions in tax credits, and the support group component of employment Mr Duncan Smith: There are two good reasons for and support allowance. that. First, families in which there is some disability are often more likely to include people who have claims on Several hon. Members rose— other benefits. Some of those will be affected by the change. Mr Duncan Smith: The hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) was first. Derek Twigg: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): The Secretary Mr Duncan Smith: No. That is exactly the reasoning of State has stated that benefits have been raised in line behind what the impact assessment says. The second with inflation, but he did not say that tax credits— reason is that, as part of employment and support 2,000 people who are affected by the Bill are in work allowance, the support group is protected. However, and receiving benefits such as tax credits—have not people who are described in the terms of the Bill as been increased for the past two years. In fact, they have qualified under the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 been frozen. and are not in the support group will find that they will be affected by the 1% increase. Therefore, by and large, the benefits for those who are disabled and qualified Mr Duncan Smith: It is interesting that the hon. Lady as disabled, and for those in receipt either of support raises that point, because under the Labour Government, payments in ESA, disability living allowance or the tax credits absolutely boomed. In 2005, there were premiums in many other benefits, are being uprated in increases of 58%. Overall, there were 340% increases in line with inflation—[Interruption.] May I finish? The tax credits, 70% of which goes to child tax credits. The only benefit that is not being uprated in line with hon. Lady says that tax credits should continue to rise, inflation is ESA for those not in the work-related activity but she can make that argument in due course. group. Some of those with disability will be affected because many in their households will be on other Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): Will the benefits. That is the reason. Secretary of State admit that the social security budget is going up on his watch because unemployment is Derek Twigg rose— rising faster than his colleague expected? Mr Duncan Smith: I think I have dealt with that Mr Duncan Smith: Never let a good fact get in the particular point and will move on—[HON.MEMBERS: way of a good argument. Unemployment is falling, “No!”] All right, I will give way to the hon. Gentleman youth unemployment is falling, more women are in again. work than ever on her watch, and long-term unemployment is flattening out. The reality, therefore, is that we have Derek Twigg: I thank the Secretary of State for giving better employment figures—there are 1 million new way, but I am not clear about what he has just said. Will private sector jobs, which outweighs the public sector he confirm his impact assessment, which states that jobs we have had to get rid of. The reality is that the rate “despite this protection …those households where someone describes of unemployment, at 7.8%, is better than the EU average themselves as disabled, (under the DDA definition) some of and better, almost for the first time, than the United whom will not be eligible for a disability benefit”— States of America. this is the crucial point— 191 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 192

“are more likely to be affected than those where there is not a benefits have risen by about 20%. We are trying to get a person who describes themselves as disabled”? fair settlement back over the next few years. Eventually, Does he agree? benefits will go back on to inflation.

Mr Duncan Smith: I have just told the hon. Gentleman Andrew George: We do not know—the Secretary of that the reality is that someone in those households is State is probably more clairvoyant than I am—what more likely to be on benefits, but particularly ESA. Let food price inflation will be in, for example, 2016. We are me remind him and the Labour party that they introduced being asked to predict what the circumstances will be in the changes to the work capability assessment and ESA. the context of the rather arbitrary figure of 1%. I The Government inherited, modified and improved those simply urge my right hon. Friend to keep an open mind, measures, but they are part of the reason why that is in and to have a means by which we will uprate that is fair the impact assessment. to both benefit recipients and those in work.

Derek Twigg: Will the Secretary of State give way? Mr Duncan Smith: I accept the point about fairness—that was my point—but the reality is that the Bill is also Mr Duncan Smith: No. I have dealt with the hon. about getting the overall welfare bill down and in kilter. Gentleman’s point. The truth is that the Labour party is As I have said on the radio and again today, the key is not only against the Bill but against what the Labour that we must reduce the deficit—that is at the heart of Government introduced just before the last election and the measure. The Liberal Democrats joined us in the the work capability assessment. Labour Members have coalition. I should remind the hon. Gentleman that the opposed £80 billion of changes and reductions in every No. 1 priority we face is reducing the deficit that Labour single vote and every single motion. I have dealt with his left us—the biggest deficit on record of any Government point. They must decide what they are in favour of since the second world war. That is the reality, but when it comes to reducing the deficit; otherwise, they Labour Members are in denial, so I will move on. will be a laughing stock. The reality is that affordability—

Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): Is not the bottom Several hon. Members rose— line that it is very difficult to justify 20% increases in benefits when earnings for hard-pressed families have Mr Duncan Smith: I will give way in a minute—I gone up by only about 10%? want to make progress and I have been quite reasonable in giving way. Mr Duncan Smith: It is worth pointing out to my First and foremost, under Labour public spending hon. Friend that, when the Opposition originally heard spiralled out of control—[Interruption.] Yes, it did. about the Bill, the shadow Chancellor and my opposite That left behind the UK’s largest ever peacetime deficit, number—the shadow Secretary of State—entertained and interest payments running at £120 million a day— the idea that what was wrong with the Bill was that it [Interruption.] It is interesting that as soon as I speak was affected too many people who were in some kind of about what Labour Members left behind, they go into work through working tax credit. The speculation was denial. They try and shout me down because they do that, somehow, they would be prepared to support, or not like the sound of it. The reality is— not oppose, measures on those not receiving working tax credit. I notice that there is no mention of that position Several hon. Members rose— in the amendment, because they have been clobbered by their left and by the trade unions, their paymasters. Mr Duncan Smith: I will give way in a minute. The Instead, there is a rag-bag amendment expressing opposition reality is that the shadow Chancellor and the former to a variety of things, which bears no relation to their Chief Secretary deny that they left a problem. It was a previous position. There they go again, denying where nightmare, and they should apologise and tell us what they are. they would do to put it right. The real question for the shadow Secretary of State and the shadow Chancellor, before they intervene again, Mr Byrne: I am grateful to the Secretary of State for is this: having opposed every single reduction to the giving way again: he is being typically generous. No deficit, what exactly would they do to cut it? They have doubt he, like me, will have looked at the DWP benefit not a single answer. expenditure tables, which show that spending on out-of- work benefits between 1996-97 and 2009-10 did not Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): We have just heard rise, but fell by £7.5 billion. That is why Lord Freud said that one justification for capping benefits at 1% is that, that Labour’s record in getting people back to work was allegedly, benefits have risen significantly more than “remarkable” and noted that Labour had tackled the wages. In that case, would it not be wise for the Government long-term dependency on unemployment benefits that to introduce a measure so that benefits do not increase it had inherited from the Tories in 1997. by more than average wage inflation? Mr Duncan Smith: I notice that the right hon. Gentleman Mr Duncan Smith: As I have said, the Bill is about is very careful to avoid telling the House how much trying to bring that fairness back into the welfare payments Labour spent on tax credits as well. The important process. As my hon. Friend the Member for Dover point that Labour Members need to realise is that of (Charlie Elphicke) has said, the reality is that in the the total bill for tax credits, 70% had no involvement period since the recession, payments for those in work with work at all. Child tax credits had no work agreement have risen by about 10% and payments for those on on them whatever. The reality is that Labour spent 193 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 194

[Mr Duncan Smith] finding savings of £1.9 billion, but as a result of tax credits Labour lost probably nearly £8 billion. That is 340% more on tax credits, 58% before the 2005 election the record of the last Government. They should apologise and 29% before the last election, in the hope of buying for the mess they left us in. votes to get it out of difficulty. The result was that the debt we had to pay off was costing us £30,000 every Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): I appreciate the single minute. That is what we had to pay as a result of Secretary of State’s generosity in giving way. that expenditure— I welcome the Secretary of State’s confirmation that pensions will not be detrimentally affected by the Bill. Mr Byrne: Will the Secretary of State give way? Can he confirm that in actual cash terms there will be an increase in benefits? Mr Duncan Smith: I am not giving way to the right hon. Gentleman again. I keep reminding him that he is Mr Duncan Smith: That is correct. That is exactly the man who, when he left office, admitted that there what this Bill sets out. That will also be the case this was no more money left. He should apologise for that. year. Labour has opposed the £80 billion of savings that we have proposed. When he gets up again, he needs to tell Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): I wish the House what Labour would do to reduce the deficit to take the Secretary of State back to the point made by and where it would find the savings. If he answers that my hon. Friend the Member for Halton (Derek Twigg) question, I will give way to him. about disabled people. We have now gone from the Secretary of State saying that there is a blanket protection Mr Byrne: My right hon. Friend the shadow Chancellor for disabled people to him acknowledging in the impact has set out far more about the difficult decisions that we assessment that some disabled people will be affected would make than the Chancellor ever made. We have by these changes. Given that recognition in the impact said that uprating of benefits should be slower; that assessment, can he tell the House how many disabled there should be a two-year cap on contributory ESA; people his Department estimates will be affected by that there should be a reduction in disregards in tax these changes? credits; that there should be a benefit cap in different parts of the country; and that no one in this country Mr Duncan Smith: I stand by what we said originally, should be allowed to live a life on welfare and languish and I say it again: in this Bill we have protected people for more than two years on JSA. The best way to bring on disability living allowance, as well as people in the the welfare bill down is to get people into work, not give support group on ESA. All the disabled premiums in them a failed Work programme. JSA and so on are also protected. I do not know where Labour Members think they are going with all these Mr Duncan Smith: I remind the right hon. Gentleman points, because the reality is that they are basically again that we are getting people into work. Unemployment opposed to absolutely everything. They would spend is lower than it was when we took office, youth more money, they would tax more and they would unemployment is lower and we are getting more people borrow more, and the people who would suffer would into work. He said that he was in favour of the cap. be the British people who would have to pick up the bill. That is very interesting, because he voted against the That is the reality. cap. He says that he is in favour of a number of issues, I was making an important point about fraud and but he voted against the Welfare Reform Act 2012. He error. In essence, more than £10 billion was lost, and we is against universal credit and the housing benefit changes. do not even know how much was overspent, because He has not agreed to any of the changes that we have Labour would not collect the figures. Writing off those made. debts wastes taxpayers’ money. To put this in perspective, The overall bill for welfare rose by 60% between 1997 the Bill sets out what we are doing at the moment to and 2010— raise £1.9 billion, but that money could have been raised without difficulty had Labour’s system been better and Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Is not the philosophical more efficient. underpinning of this debate our wish to create a hand-back It is also worth pointing out that, for many of the society, not a hand-out society? Is not cutting taxes on people Labour Members talk about, universal credit lower earners the best way to help those on low earnings, will improve their income dramatically. I have some rather than recycling their hard-earned money through very good examples of that. Under universal credit, a the benefits system? typical one-earner couple who have two children and rent their home will be £61 better off—including the Mr Duncan Smith: That is exactly the point. Labour changes today. A one-earner family with an income of Members think that helping people is about trapping £20,000 and two children will see a net gain of at least more and more people in benefits. It is interesting that £34 a week. That will be a big boost for them and was under the tax credits system, nine out of 10 families not taken into consideration in the IFS figures. with children were eligible for tax credits, in some cases The reality is that there is an issue about fairness, those with more than £70,000 in earnings. What a which we touched on just now. We should bear in mind ridiculous nonsense they created. that 70% of all households will not be affected by this Labour’s system was riddled with fraud and error. legislation. Many of our constituents are taxpayers HMRC had to write off £4 billion in fraud and error picking up the bill for all these costs, including the payments and will probably have to write off another deficit and borrowing that the last Government left us. £4 billion, so £8 billion has been lost. This Bill is about Over the last five years, following the recession, the gap 195 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 196 has grown between what people in employment have parents, as she knows only too well, would rotate out of been earning and what those on welfare have been that and crash back out of work, because the job moved getting. Those in work have seen their incomes rise half on and they could not stay with it. as quickly as those on out-of-work benefits—10% compared The reality is that we are reforming the welfare system with 20%. That is not fair to taxpayers. Returning to make it better and easier for people who are in fairness to the system is critical, and it is one area that part-time work to have improved incomes. That is a Labour refuses to acknowledge. Under the previous part of this overall welfare programme that will deliver Government, taxes rose, borrowing rose and the deficit an efficient and even-handed system. It is right that the rose—and they left those bills for the next generation to 1% applies across the board, including the tax credit pay. It is our job to get that under control. These are not system. As I said earlier about the overall numbers of decisions taken lightly or easily, but we have to take people affected, of those working households, 20% of them and they are in denial. all households are affected by the Bill. If tax credits and The shadow Chancellor likes to sound off from a child benefits were excluded, as the Opposition have sedentary position. He likes to give it out but does not prescribed, we would see a requirement to find a further like to take it. I remember only a few weeks ago that he £1.5 billion—yet another amount of money which they went around the studios complaining that we were too cannot say how it would be found. When in denial, like mean to him. If he does not like it, then he should stop those on the other side of the House, one just votes making sedentary interventions. against everything. A constructive Opposition would give us a proposal on how they would save that money. Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Will the Secretary of State confirm that inflation can be particularly Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): tough on people on low incomes who face small increases? The Secretary of State has used the word “denial” Will he reassure people in the country that the Government twice. In previous Budgets and autumn statements, the and the future Governor of the Bank of England will Government talked about and acknowledged measured be dedicated to getting inflation down, so that the value child poverty. However, in the most recent autumn of benefits is not eroded more? statement and in the Bill, there is no mention of child poverty. Will he admit that under these plans child Mr Duncan Smith: Exactly. Mortgage rates are a poverty in our country will go up and that that will critical component of what a household spends each come at a cost to us all? year. Under Opposition plans, if interest rates had to rise because of their messy borrowing and spending, Mr Duncan Smith: I will say two things about child every 1% would cost another £1,000 on a typical mortgage. poverty. First, we want to ensure that the figures published What have also done as a coalition, which we should be concern the years that this measure covers, and the year proud of and on which our coalition partners were very in which I will be introducing secondary legislation. keen, is raise the tax threshold. That is taking more than The figures will be published next week in time for the 2 million people out of tax—people who were paying debate—the Committee stage will be on the Floor of tax under the previous Government. That is serious the House and everybody who is here today can take help and an improvement of £165 a week for the part. average family. Secondly, child poverty was calculated based on the median income line, and the previous Government lost Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): I want to control of it. Tax credits rocketed because they were ask the Secretary of State about the people who are chasing a moving line. As upper incomes rose, so did moving into low-paid work. Of the increase in employment average earnings, and that is why they had to spend so in the past year, only 20% has been for full-time work, much money. I remind the hon. Lady that they missed and so 80% has been for people who are by definition in their targets in 2010 by 600,000 children in poverty. part-time, and therefore probably low-paid, work. How Since we have come in, the figures published this June will they benefit when he is capping the in-work benefits show that child poverty fell by 300,000. I am not going increase by just 1%? to stand here today and try to claim credit for that fall. The figure fell because we saw the biggest fall in earnings Mr Duncan Smith: I will make two points to the hon. for many years. Does that mean that because earnings Lady. First, the vast majority of people who take part-time fell child poverty has been solved? No, it does not. That work choose to take part-time work. In all the studies is why we are consulting on a better way to measure we have—I am happy to let her have them; they are in child poverty. the public domain—only 17% or 18% say that they did not want a part-time job, and wanted a full-time job, so Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): The she should not decry those who take part-time work. Secretary of State brandishes the figure of a 20% increase My second point is that that is why we are bringing in in benefits in the past five years. In cash terms, jobseeker’s universal credit. Universal credit is about in-work and allowance has gone up from just £59.15 in 2007 to will be a huge support to those in part-time work, £71 in 2012. In other words, in each of those past years starting this year. The trouble with the tax credit system, JSA has gone up by just £2.50. Is it not the truth that which the Opposition are defending despite the fraud, this is a mean and miserable piece of legislation from a the over-payments and the massive error, is that it mean and miserable Government? lodged people into little silos where they could not move up, out of those hours. If a job moved from Mr Duncan Smith: I hear the hon. Lady’s point; I 16 hours to 17 or 18 hours, people did not do it because have to say that I do not agree with her. Benefits have they could not afford to do it. Large numbers of lone risen, but if she would like to talk to those who are in 197 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 198

[Mr Duncan Smith] tell them that it is more than a joke—it is pathetic. And it is pathetic that they have done it to try to get themselves employment on lower incomes in her constituency she off the hook. would find that many have seen absolutely no rise in their incomes at all, and some even less than that. Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): Has my right hon. Friend pondered this question? The Government Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con): On that are trying to ensure that the social security net works point, I was approached by a member of Manchester for people who need social security. When does he think constabulary in my advice surgery recently. He said, that Labour decided that they were not interested in “How can you justify putting out-of-work benefits up social security, only in bribing the electorate? by 5.2% last year, when I have had a pay freeze and I risk my life every day?” Is that not the nub of the Mr Duncan Smith: It is in its DNA, so I am not sure argument? People who are in work have to be treated when it started, to be honest. The tax credit system was fairly. out of control, as I said earlier on, because Labour was chasing a figure it could never reach, and as a result its Mr Duncan Smith: I agree with my hon. Friend. I spending was enormous. want to make some progress because he is absolutely In conclusion— right. The reality that Labour will not face up to is that the programme it has put forward is hugely costly. Mr Byrne rose— I want to deal with the programme that Labour put forward in the past week, which I think is in the amendment Mr Duncan Smith: No, I want to conclude. The right before the House. I looked at it and it seemed very hon. Gentleman will have plenty of time to speak. familiar. I remembered something, looking back over the past 10 years. I went back and had a look at the programme that the shadow Chancellor and his then Mr Byrne rose— boss, the then Labour Prime Minister the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) Mr Duncan Smith: Okay, I will give way in a second. came up with. [Interruption.] I seem to recall that they I want to remind the Opposition of what they have came up with a programme called StepUp. The right done. They have opposed £83 billion-worth of savings hon. Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls) was this Parliament. That is equivalent to adding another an adviser at the time. [Interruption.] Well, he was £5,000 of debt for every working family in the country. certainly very close to him. Is he now denying— We hear much about taxing the rich, yet, in this Parliament, [Interruption.] Well, there we have it finally: he no the richest will pay more in tax than in any single year longer wants to have the former Prime Minister as his of the previous Government—more tax on capital gains, friend. More than that, from his sedentary position, he more stamp duty—they will be less able to avoid and will probably deny that, late in the hour while the then evade tax and they will pay more when they take out Prime Minister was troubled and in difficulty, he did their pension policies. not come by taxi or by car to consult him and help him We hear much about the bankers’ bonus tax, but out. A denial of a friend is pretty cheap, and I think we Labour would have spent that money 10 times over. will remember that. This is its great bankers’ bonus tax of £2.3 billion. Let The reality is that the StepUp programme, on which us think about it very carefully. It would have overspent the Opposition have clearly based this new programme, that to the sum of £25 billion—through reversing the was piloted in 20 areas between 2002 and 2004. It was VAT increase, more capital spending, reversing tax credit never rolled out nationally, and I want to quote from savings and reversing the child benefit savings. We are the evaluation report. The StepUp programme was all talking huge sums of money. about giving paid employment to people who had been out of work for some two years. The report stated: Mr Byrne: The Secretary of State has the temerity to “StepUp produces a very modest improvement in job entries…but criticise proposals we launched on Friday, when he is this is below the level of statistical significance.” presiding over a Work programme that is literally worse In fact, each of those jobs would have ended up costing than doing nothing. He stands before the House justifying £10,000—a massive cost for a very small regard. When the position of his Government, which is that it is they did it—[Interruption.] Wait a minute. When they possible to spend a life on welfare, but we say that is did it—[Interruption.] They do not want to hear about wrong. The way to bring welfare spending down is to it. They made a bogus announcement and now they do get people into jobs, and when there are no jobs we not want to hear how useless it is. The work prospects of invest in creating them. under-25s in the pilot got worse as a result of this programme. Mr Duncan Smith: Our record on getting people into Here is what happened. The Opposition were in a jobs is better than theirs. The difference is that Labour hurry during the Christmas recess, worried about being spent taxpayers’ money like drunks on a Friday night, attacked for having no proposals, so the shadow Chancellor with no care or concern for how effective it was. The said, “Oh, I remember something we did under the man work experience programme achieves what the future who used to be my friend, but is no longer my friend. I jobs fund did, but at a fraction of the cost. The Work remember we had this programme.” So they decided to programme is getting more people into work than the put that out and propose raiding pensions savings yet flexible new deal programme. again to pay for a bogus programme. If anyone thinks for one moment that it would help anybody at all, let me Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab) rose— 199 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 200

Mr Duncan Smith: No, I will not give way to the hon. scrutiny and exposure. It is turning into a hit and run Gentleman. I think he has a few apologies to make on working families, and frankly we should not stand before I give way. for it. This was Labour’s legacy in government: 5 million on The Chancellor should have shown up, because the out-of-work benefits, one in five households with nobody Bill is about clearing up the consequences of his failure. working and 2 million children living in workless families—a His reputation as a maker of recessions is now pretty higher proportion than in any other EU country. In well established. Every time he has come to the House, opposition, they have learned nothing. Today’s amendment he has been forced to downgrade growth yet again, and shows—if Members can be bothered to get to the end since he took office he has battered the life out of the of it without falling asleep—that Labour would spend recovery that Labour left him in 2010. He is the first more, tax more and borrow more and let the next Chancellor for 35 years to preside over a double-dip generation pick up the bill. The Bill is about picking up recession. History will not judge him well. the pieces, sorting out the deficit and being a responsible Government. But the Chancellor has a partner in crime: the Secretary of State, the man who has become the Comical Ali of the Government, the only man in the DWP who thinks 2.44 pm that everything is fine and hunky-dory—a man who Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab): I would put Dr Pangloss to shame. Every time he comes beg to move, to the House, he comes with words of reassurance: everything on his watch is going according to plan. He That this House declines to give a Second Reading to the blithely assures us that the Work programme is fine. We Welfare Benefits Uprating Bill because it fails to address the reasons why the cost of benefits is exceeding the Government’s are told that universal credit is completely and utterly plans; notes that the Resolution Foundation has calculated that on track—not a hiccup to be heard—and that the 68 per cent of households affected by these measures are in work benefit cap will definitely start in May. The only problem and that figures from the Institute for Fiscal Studies show that all is that he is living in a fantasy land of his own, because the measures announced in the Autumn Statement, including everything is not okay, everything is not on time and those in the Bill, will mean a single-earner family with children on everything is certainly not on budget. We were promised average will be £534 worse off by 2015; further notes that the Bill a Work programme bigger than any yet know to man. does not include anything to remedy the deficiencies in the Government’s work programme or the slipped timetable for universal So big it could be seen from space. This is a programme credit; believes that a comprehensive plan to reduce the benefits that is so effective it is literally worse than doing nothing. bill must include measures to create economic growth and help It works so well that just three out of 100 people who the 129,400 adults over the age of 25 out of work for 24 months passed through it passed into sustained jobs. It is a or more, but that the Bill does not do so; further believes that the disaster. Bill should introduce a compulsory jobs guarantee, which would give long-term unemployed adults a job they would have to take Then, of course, we have universal credit—a policy up or lose benefits, funded by limiting tax relief on pension that is now proceeding so smoothly that, it is fair to say, contributions for people earning over £150,000 to 20 per cent; it has earned widespread support and praise from right and further believes that the proposals in the Bill are unfair when the way across Government. Members of the Cabinet— the additional rate of income tax is being reduced, which will perhaps even those sharing a building with the Economic result in those earning over a million pounds per year receiving an Secretary—are now so impressed that they are telling average tax cut of over £100,000 a year. anyone who will listen at the Daily Mail and elsewhere It is good to see the Secretary of State fronting the that it is a “disaster waiting to happen” and that the IT Bill today and to see the Economic Secretary to the is “nowhere near ready.” The Secretary of State has so Treasury in his place. Where, however, is the Chancellor? much grip on this project that the Prime Minister It is a disgrace that he is not here in person. Where is he? himself invited him to pack his bags and clear on out of the Department—a vote of confidence that I know rang Mr Duncan Smith: The Chancellor told me earlier he around Caxton house, because senior officials are now was in Berlin making a speech—a long-term commitment leaving the Department as fast as they can. —but he will be back in plenty of time for the winding-up speeches, and he is looking forward to hearing Labour Now, of course, we have the news that the benefit make as much of a mess of it at the end as at the cap—which Lord Freud told the other place would beginning. absolutely, definitely, without question be introduced nationwide in April—will be introduced in just four Mr Byrne: I think it is surprising that the Chancellor London boroughs. This is a record of chaos, delay and is talking to people in Germany, rather than to MPs in impending disaster, and today the Government are the House about the disastrous consequences of his inviting millions of working families in this country to policies. pay to clean it up. We know that the Chancellor and the Secretary of State do not see eye to eye on much, but they are jointly Jake Berry: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for and severally liable for the mess and the haemorrhaging giving way. I am sorry to drag him back to the Bill, of the welfare budget that the Bill seeks to staunch. but what would he say to the police officer in my The Chancellor’s disappearance is a hallmark of the constituency—the right hon. Gentleman heard my earlier contempt that has been shown for the House today. The intervention—who said, “Is it fair that people out of impact assessment for the Bill was published at noon. It work have seen their benefits go up by 5.2% when my makes radically different assumptions from the policy salary’s been frozen and I risk my life every day to keep costings set out by the Chancellor last year. And now people safe in this country?”? That is what this Bill is the Government propose to ram the Bill through the about; will the right hon. Gentleman please answer that House in just one day of debate. They are terrified of question? 201 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 202

Mr Byrne: I want incomes to rise faster than benefits. person in the area telephoned BBC Tees this morning That is why I think it was wrong that the hon. Gentleman and said that he had £130 a week for himself, his wife voted for a three-year freeze in tax credits, which has hit and three children. He cannot get a job and all he has to 7,700 of his constituents. He must answer to them after look forward to is an increase of £1.30—enough to buy today’s debate. Why is he supporting a huge tax cut for a loaf of bread. Does my right hon. Friend agree that millionaires when 7,500 people in his constituency are we need to show compassion to such families, rather seeing a freeze on their tax credits and a squeeze on than giving millionaire earners a tax break of £2,000 a them in the years to come? week?

Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): To respond Mr Byrne: What we need from this Government is to the issues raised by Government Members, I point the right combination of compassion and competence, out that a lady on £72 a week in jobseeker’s allowance and right now we see neither. came to my surgery on Friday. She is being expected to pay £9.60 because of a loss of housing benefit because Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): We were told of the imposition of the bedroom tax. What do Government that this Bill was about fairness. How can it be a fair Members have to say to her? when a young mother in my constituency on jobseeker’s allowance is expected to live on £56.24 a week? She will Mr Byrne: Once upon a time—back in 2004 and lose £12 a week through the empty room tax and £9 a 2005—when the Secretary of State was making speeches week in council tax. That leaves her with £35 a week to about poverty, he said that the way to judge the Conservative pay for heating, water and food. How is she going to party was on how its policies worked for the poorest survive? How can that be fair? communities in the country. What many people will be asking after today’s debate is: what happened to that man? Mr Byrne: My hon. Friend is exactly right. What her constituents need is a job, but what they are not getting Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): The right hon. Gentleman from the failed Work programme is any prospect at all is perhaps not willing to address the issues put to him by of work. Government Members, but I wonder whether he will address the question raised by a former Cabinet colleague John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): On of his, Jacqui Smith, who said earlier this week that inflation uprating, which is at the heart of this Bill, Labour canvassers there is a widespread belief that housing benefit for “who’ve knocked on doors recently” private rented accommodation will rise in April by CPI. have The Department has done little to dispel that understanding, but in Rotherham, as my right hon. Friend might be “been told the problem for Labour is…they think we caused the deficit and they’re not…convinced we know how we’ll solve it.” aware, the rate for a three-bedroom home is set to be cut by 3% in cash terms. Is not this, like the Bill, another How would he respond to her? harsh, half-hidden cut to the help that those in work and those out of work need to meet the cost of household Mr Byrne: I spoke to the former right honourable bills? Member for Redditch yesterday and I set out— [Interruption.] Absolutely. I set out the substance of today’s debate and said that we have a choice between Mr Byrne: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. the Tory way and the Labour way to bring down welfare He is also right that the Department’s incompetence in spending. The Tory way is to hit working families; the proceeding with some of these reforms means that Labour way is to help people work. many of the changes risk costing more than they save. That is why Ministers have been forced to delay Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): I share the concern implementation of the benefit cap, about which they about the Bill’s impact on public service workers. Has made such a fuss last year. Now we see that it will be my right hon. Friend seen—I am sure he has—the implemented in just four London boroughs, because research published over the weekend by the Children’s the Government do not know how it will work in Society? It shows that 40,000 soldiers will see their practice. household incomes cut if the Bill goes through, along with 300,000 nurses, 150,000 primary school teachers Charlie Elphicke: Does the right hon. Gentleman and 9,300 of my constituents, which is why I will be think it right and fair that benefits should have gone up voting against it today. by 20% at the same time that average earnings have gone up just by 10%? Mr Byrne: My hon. Friend is already speaking very eloquently in the House. Some 40,000 soldiers, Mr Byrne: I repeat: there are 6,800 people in the hon. 300,000 nurses and 150,000 primary and nursery school Gentleman’s constituency on tax credits—we have rehearsed teachers will be hit by this Bill. I suggest to the House these figures before, because he is an assiduous attender that they are making a much bigger contribution to the of social security debates. I want incomes to go up health and well-being of this country than the Chancellor faster than benefits. That is why it is so important that of the Exchequer, who is accusing them of being the tax credits are protected. He has to accept that he has people whose blinds are closed in the morning. voted for a freeze in tax credits for the 6,800 of his constituents who enjoy them. Today he is proposing to Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): We have vote for a further squeeze, at a time when millionaires seen the failure of the Work programme. In my constituency, are being given a tax cut. I just do not understand how unemployment is now 10% higher than a year ago. One he will justify that to the good residents of Dover. 203 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 204

Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): The right hon. Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con) rose— Gentleman refers to 6,700 people in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke). Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con) rose— While he is bandying statistics around, he might be interested to know that there are 38,000 people in work who have benefited from the increase in the tax threshold. Mr Byrne: I shall give way to people who were here at The way to raise incomes is not to have inflation of state the start of the debate, rather than to those who have support but to get people back into work where they wandered in late. This is an important debate. The point can keep more of their own income. that I want to make, before I give way to the hon. Member for Stourbridge (Margot James), is that we are Mr Byrne: The hon. Gentleman knows as well as I learning today who is being asked to pick up the bill for do—he is a numerate man and he understands the this catastrophic economic failure. It is not Britain’s figures involved in this debate—that the personal allowance richest citizens, who are now so hard pressed and under does not compensate for the whack that has been delivered the cosh that they are being given a tax cut. From next to most working families in this country. The House of year, millionaires will have £107,000 more to help them Commons Library says they will be £280 a year poorer to heat their swimming pools. It is not Britain’s millionaires by next year and the Institute for Fiscal Studies says who are picking up the tab; it is Britain’s working they will be £534 poorer by 2015-16. He has to get real families. The measures in the Bill are a strivers’ tax, pure about the impact of his Government’s policies, because and simple. they are hurting 7,000 of his constituents. Margot James: Is the right hon. Gentleman going to Nick de Bois: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman acknowledge the 1 million extra jobs that have been for giving way again. However difficult these decisions created since 2010? Will he also acknowledge that the are, if we look more closely at the numbers, we see that number of people claiming tax credits escalated to an he is not highlighting the fact that people earning unsustainable level under his Government? The country £50,000 or £60,000—which most people would consider cannot afford to have 50% of the population either a good income—are included in his figures for tax claiming tax credits or in receipt of benefits. That is credits. That is disingenuous and merely a reflection of unsustainable. the trap and the legacy of the shadow Chancellor’s former friend, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown). Mr Byrne: I look forward to coming to Stourbridge and helping to explain to the 6,500 people there who are Mr Byrne: That is complete nonsense. This Government on tax credits that their Member of Parliament thinks are taking £14 billion out of tax credits and the Bill that the money they are getting is unsustainable. I proposes to take another £4 billion. That will hurt happen to think that those 6,500 people, whom the hon. 7,000 of the hon. Gentleman’s constituents, at a time Lady has just dismissed, need every pound of the tax when millionaires are being given a tax cut. I simply do credits that Labour delivered when we were in office. not understand how he can justify that, either in this House or on the streets of Enfield. The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions Several hon. Members rose— (Steve Webb): I should like to bring the right hon. Gentleman back to the Bill, and to tell him that when he Mr Byrne: I am going to make a tiny bit of progress votes against it tonight, £1.9 billion a year will go once I have given way to my hon. Friend the Member missing. Will he compare that £1.9 billion a year with for Wrexham (Ian Lucas). the £3 billion a week that Labour was borrowing during its last year in office? Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. What Government Members do not seem Mr Byrne: I would contrast that money with the to understand is that the whole rationale for this Bill £3 billion a year that the Chancellor is giving away to is the need to address their failure to deliver on the Britain’s richest citizens, in a tax cut that will kick in economic promises they made when they first came into next year, at a time when the Government are cutting government. The Bill is necessary only because the tax credits and when Britain’s working families are Government have failed economically. under pressure. How can the hon. Gentleman possibly justify that, either here or to his constituents? Mr Byrne: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. When the Chancellor came to the House back in December, he was forced to admit that somehow, for some reason, Mr Duncan Smith: I would be grateful if the right growth had eluded him once again—it had got away. He hon. Gentleman will now acknowledge that all the brought forward a package of measures that was so OBR’s latest figures show that, under this Government, focused on generating jobs that the Office for Budget the wealthiest are paying more in tax than in any single Responsibility looked at it and revised the claimant year under his Government. count for the forecast period, not down but up by 300,000. The OBR also spelled out how much this was Mr Byrne: Like me, the Secretary of State will no going to cost us: it is an eye-watering figure. The heroic doubt have seen table 2.1 of the Budget, published in efforts of the Chancellor and the Secretary of State to March 2012, which clearly shows that in 2014-15, the get the claimant count down over the next few years is cost of the tax giveaway will be £3.4 billion. How can he costing us £6 billion in higher welfare bills, and today’s possibly justify that at a time when he is hitting Britain’s Bill shows us exactly who is going to pick up the tab. working families? Will he justify it now? 205 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 206

Mr Duncan Smith: I asked the right hon. Gentleman Dr Wollaston: I certainly feel that the tone of this a simple question—[Interruption.] Actually, the shadow debate is important, and that we should not be talking Chancellor should leave the right hon. Gentleman alone about shirkers. I do not believe that people on welfare for a second; I think he has a brain in his head. Don’t benefits are shirkers. Having made that clear statement, listen to him; his advice to the last Prime Minister was I would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman this hopeless. I want to ask the right hon. Member for question: for how many days did the Labour Government Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) a simple question. apply the top rate of tax when they were in office? Here are the figures: the wealthiest in Britain are paying more in tax under this Government than in any single Mr Byrne: I know that the hon. Lady is new to the year under the last Government. Does he agree with House—[Interruption.] I will seek to answer her question that? as soon as those on her own Front Bench calm down a little. I think that she would acknowledge that the Mr Byrne: We put the top rate of tax up. It is this economics and the politics of this Parliament are very Government who are cutting it, at a cost of £3.4 billion different from those in the last three Parliaments. There a year. How can the Secretary of State possibly justify was an important principle at the heart of the debate— the choices made by his right hon. Friend the Chancellor, namely, that those with the broadest shoulders should a man who has supported him hilt and sword? How can bear the biggest load. That is why, when Labour was in the Secretary of State justify giving away £3.4 billion to power, we put up the top rate of tax. We knew that, as Britain’s richest citizens in a tax giveaway when he is part of the plan to bring the deficit down, those with hurting Britain’s working families? Justify it now! the broadest shoulders should bear the biggest load. That is why we put up the top rate of tax, and that is Mr Duncan Smith: Does the right hon. Gentleman why we object to the Chancellor of the Exchequer agree or disagree that the OBR figures show that, under cutting it and giving £3.4 billion to Britain’s richest this Government, we are raising more in tax from citizens when he is taking money from Britain’s working wealthy people than in any single year under the last families. Government? Will he now admit that? Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) Mr Byrne: I am saying that we should be raising more (LD): The hon. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) was from Britain’s richest citizens, not giving them a £3.4 billion right yesterday, and she is right today. This debate tax cut to heat their swimming pools while Britain’s should not polarise people in work against people who working families are being punished. Let us be clear are out of work. However, the right hon. Gentleman about the effects of the Bill. must realise that those of us who lived through the last Labour Government saw the rich doing better, the Nadhim Zahawi rose— bonuses getting higher, the bankers exploiting people more and the pensioners not getting the link with Mr Byrne: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, earnings that Labour promised but never delivered. even though he could not be bothered to get here for the This is a difficult decision, but the Government have got beginning of the debate, but let me first ask him how he the balance right in these difficult times. I hope that, by can justify giving away £3.4 billion to Britain’s richest the end of this Parliament, they will be vindicated citizens while taking money away from Britain’s working through many more people being in work and many families. Justify that now! fewer being on benefits.

Nadhim Zahawi: My question to the right hon. Mr Byrne: I respect the passion with which the right Gentleman is about the honesty with which he delivered hon. Gentleman made that intervention, but would he his message in 2010, in which he told us that there was mind intervening once again and telling me whether he no money left and wished us good luck. Will he show thinks a top-rate tax cut is the right priority for Britain’s the same honesty now and acknowledge that we are hard-pressed working families? taking more from the wealthiest in this country in every year of this Parliament than was taken in the 13 years of the Labour Government? That is the honesty we require Simon Hughes: No, I do not think that it is the right from him. Yes or no, please? priority, but it was part of a package deal that will leave the richest paying more than they did under Labour, that will bring the top rate down to 45% when it was Mr Byrne: I think that, at a time like this, those with only 40% in 12.5 years of the Labour Government, and the broadest shoulders should be carrying the biggest that will bring in a rise in the tax threshold to £9,440 for load. I also thought that, once upon a time, the ordinary people in my constituency and the right hon. Conservatives agreed with that principle. I seem to Gentleman’s this year. In this place, we make balanced remember hearing that once in a debate. choices. This is a reasonable balanced choice to get the economy out of the mess that he and his colleagues Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con) rose— have clearly admitted they left us in.

Mr Byrne: I will give way to the hon. Lady, who I believe made an important intervention yesterday about Several hon. Members rose— the tone of this debate and about how we should not reduce it to a basic division between Britain’s shirkers Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. and strivers. I hope that she will say more about that Interventions, even when invited, need to be relatively today. brief. 207 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 208

Mr Byrne: At least the right hon. Gentleman is Chris Bryant: Is there not another real problem? In honest, unlike that lot on the Conservative Benches. We many constituencies where there is profound deprivation will leave it to the voters of Bermondsey to decide and low-income families have even less money coming whether the package that he secured, which punishes so in to spend every week, we will see further depression in many hard-working families in his constituency, was or the local economy, more shops closed and fewer people was not a good one. in jobs, so that we will never be able to refloat the economy. Is not the greatest scandal of all the fact that Several hon. Members rose— working people in our constituencies—people in jobs—are using food banks to feed their children? Mr Byrne: I shall give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Eltham (Clive Efford), but then I will make Mr Byrne: My hon. Friend speaks eloquently, and his some progress. remarks cut to the quick of the values now on show in this Government. Once upon a time—the Secretary of Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): The argument coming State will well remember this—he said: from the Government Benches is wholly founded on “Conservative policies have to work for Britain’s poorest misinformation, particularly in respect of the claim that communities and every policy must be measured by that standard.” the Government have created 1 million jobs in the private That is what the right hon. Gentleman said on 28 June sector. Is my right hon. Friend aware that, according to 2004, so let us weigh up the impact of this Bill on the Office for National Statistics, 196,000 of those jobs Britain’s communities. It will mean child benefit rising are due solely to the reclassification of sixth-form colleges by 20p a week, maternity allowance by £1.37 and jobseeker’s and further education colleges? allowance by 72p, while the income of a millionaire will go up as a result of the tax cut by £2,058 a week. How Mr Byrne: My hon. Friend is right: sometimes things can he possibly justify that? He cannot. He knows that are not all that they seem to be. the Chancellor was in search of a dividing line on welfare and that he has obliged the Secretary of State to Several hon. Members rose— kiss goodbye to 10 years of campaigning to turn the Tory party into one that gave a monkey’s about poverty. Mr Byrne: I will give way later, but I want to move the debate on a little. It is time that we debated who is going Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): Does to be hurt by the Bill. Yesterday, the Institute for Fiscal my right hon. Friend agree that child poverty in London Studies did us a great favour in setting out for the first remains stubbornly high, and that this Bill will make time that a total of 7 million working families will be hit matters worse? My constituency has the highest level of by the Bill—half the working families in Britain. As we child poverty, and this Bill will lead to more poverty heard from the hon. Member for Enfield North (Nick across cities such as London and around the country. de Bois), some on the Treasury Bench like to cry, “Don’t worry, don’t panic; working people are going to be Mr Byrne: Many unemployed people in my hon. compensated by the rises in the personal allowance.” Friend’s constituency are young people. These are the That is simply not true. The IFS is very clear about that: people who need a jobs guarantee backed by a tax on the real income of a one-earner working family is going bankers’ bonuses. to be £534 a year less by 2015-16. The Children’s Society, as one of my hon. Friends Andrew George: Of course we welcome the Labour mentioned earlier, has spelt out clearly what this means party’s last-minute pre-election conversion to increasing for many of Britain’s working families. A second lieutenant tax for wealthy people. The right hon. Gentleman will will lose £552 a year, and there are 40,000 soldiers in the have heard in my intervention on my right hon. Friend same position; and a lone parent nurse will lose £424 a the Secretary of State my sincere misgivings and my year, as will a primary school teacher. These are not wish to encourage him to review this rather arbitrary people who have their blinds closed in the morning, yet 1% cap and perhaps to find ways of relating it to these are the people who will be hurt by the Bill. average wages. Bearing in mind that the welfare budget I know the Chancellor thought he was being clever. I is— know that he was, as the hon. Member for Brent Central (Sarah Teather) said, playing the politics of the playground and looking for a dividing line. We are right to ask what Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. It that means for the average Conservative constituency. It was only a few moments ago, I remind the hon. Gentleman, means that an average of 6,000 families in Tory-held when I said interventions on a speech needed to be brief constituencies will be worse off—a number that I noticed and should not become a speech in their own right. was bigger than the Tory majority in 107 seats. I just mention that in passing. Why should a second lieutenant, Mr Byrne: I am grateful for the intervention because a nurse or a primary school teacher, or 6,000 residents I think the hon. Gentleman, like us, is concerned that in of an average Tory constituency, be asked to pay for this our country today a food bank is opening every three Government’s failure to get people back to work? This days, and that 5 million people may resort to payday is a strivers’ tax pure and simple: it does nothing to loans this year in order to balance the books for the end create new jobs or remedy the deficiencies of the Work of the month. The Sun on Sunday this weekend, in an programme; it does nothing to sort out the chaos in article carried next to the one by the Secretary of State, universal credit; it does nothing but punish working said that a quarter of mums are now turning off heating families that are now losing £9 billion of support under so that they have enough money to feed the kids. Is that this Government. the kind of country that we are becoming, because the 209 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 210

[Mr Byrne] reform pension tax relief to create a two-year limit on jobseeker’s allowance. We think that it is right to send Saint of Easterhouse has now become the punch bag of the clear signal that anyone who can work must not, the Treasury? Once he talked about broken Britain; now and will not, be allowed to languish or to live a life on he is presiding over breadline Britain because he keeps welfare. That is the kind of tough-minded but fair losing his battles with the Treasury. policy that we now need.

Andrew George: In view of that and given that the Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab): We have welfare budget is £220 billion, does the right hon. heard many interventions from Government Members Gentleman believe that it is something that needs a long about the unsustainability of tax credits and top-up hard look at? Particularly in a time of austerity, where benefits for working families. According to the does he believe the savings can be made within that Government’s own impact assessment, budget? “households towards the bottom of the income distribution are more likely to be affected and have a slightly higher average Mr Byrne: I have been very clear about where I think change because they are more likely to receive the affected benefits.” the savings can be made. I just think it is wrong that we are giving £3 billion in a tax giveaway to Britain’s richest What does my right hon. Friend think is the reason for citizens. that statement?

Several hon. Members rose— Mr Byrne: I note that the impact assessment is based on assumptions very different from those that formed Mr Byrne: Let me deal first with the hon. Gentleman’s the basis of the Treasury costings in December last intervention. I think it is wrong that millionaires will get year. However, the Government cannot change the simple an extra £2,058 a week next year, in 2013-14, when child truth: this is a strivers’ tax pure and simple, and it will benefit is going up by 20p a week. I simply cannot see hit people on tax credits. how that can be justified and I do not think that tax cut We oppose this strivers’ tax. We believe that welfare should go through. to work will not work without jobs, and the Bill does not create a single job. It creates a heck of a mess, and Several hon. Members rose— asks Britain’s working families to clear it up. I urge the House to oppose the Bill’s Second Reading, to strike a Mr Byrne: I shall give way a couple more times, but blow for Britain’s strivers, to send the Government back then I want to conclude. to the drawing board, and to demand from them a proper plan to get our country back to work. Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): The right hon. Gentleman is right to say that the public do not want Several hon. Members rose— false distinctions between strivers and shirkers and he is equally right, I think, to believe that people will see through those who pretend to care when they do not Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I have the money to show that they care. In his more lucid remind all Members that there is a five-minute time moment, he explained that the Government had no limit on Back-Bench speeches. more money left, so would he accept that one answer might be to push forward with ideas such as the living wage, and will he advise us, on the basis of his own 3.21 pm research on a living wage, what impact it would have on Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): Thank the long-term benefits needs in the country? you for the opportunity to contribute to the debate, Madam Deputy Speaker. Mr Byrne: I suspect the hon. Gentleman feels that very keenly, as 7,500 people in his constituency are on If they read Hansard tomorrow, many of my constituents tax credits. I think that the best way to bring the welfare will be under the misapprehension that the last Labour bill down is by getting people into work. The tragedy Government were a great welfare-reforming Government, with the Bill is that it fails the Ronseal test set out by the but one of the points that many others will make to me Prime Minister yesterday. It does not do what it says on is that that left the legacy of welfare dependency that the tin. We are told that this Bill is all about reducing has corroded so much of our society. The simple reality welfare spending. Actually, if we put tax credits to one is that the last Labour Government should have dealt side, the welfare bill for the period covered by this Bill with the issue of welfare reform when they had the will not rise by 1%; it is going to go up by 4%. It will go opportunity to do so, between 1997 and 2010. up by £8 billion because the Secretary of State is doing so little to get people back to work. Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): Research carried out recently The reality of the debate is that there is a Labour way by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation found that no such to bring down welfare spending and there is a Tory way. culture of worklessness existed, and that in fact there The Tory way, aided and abetted by the Liberal Democrats, was a strong commitment to work among people is to attack tax credits. The Labour way is to bring throughout the country, including the 3,500 unemployed down welfare spending by getting people into jobs—jobs people in my constituency. in which they will pay tax rather than sitting on the dole taking benefits. That is why we tabled our amendment. Gavin Williamson: Where we have a culture in which We think that it is right to introduce a bank bonus tax it sometimes does not pay to take a job or to work more to get 100,000 young people back to work, and to hours, we capture people in a culture of dependency. 211 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 212

How do we measure success? Is it about spending hospitals? Will she sack teachers? Will she get rid of more and more money? Is it about spending money on nurses? I want to hear what the hon. Lady is going to welfare, constantly and consistently, or is it about results? do. I think that we on this side of the House believe that it is about results. In 1997, the number of households in Fiona O’Donnell: What I want to do is return the which no one had ever worked was 184,000. That number hon. Gentleman to the subject of the Bill. Does he agree was far too high. Given all the billions of pounds that with Disability Rights UK, which has said that 1 million were spent, we would expect it to have fallen considerably: disabled people will be affected by the 1% uprating, and perhaps by 10,000, perhaps by 50,000, perhaps by 100,000. that more disabled people will be living in poverty? Is he So what happened? Did it increase or did it fall? It proud of that? increased, and not by 10,000— Gavin Williamson: I am taking a lead from the Labour Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab) rose— Front Benchers and touching on some of the reasons why we are in this position, and having to make highly Gavin Williamson: Does the hon. Gentleman think difficult decisions. We are not scared to take difficult that the number increased, or does he think that it fell? decisions, but perhaps if the Labour party had made Perhaps he will tell the House. some of the tough choices that we have made—if it had reformed welfare earlier, and had not trapped so many Chris Williamson: If the hon. Gentleman is concerned people in welfare dependency—the decisions that the about an increase in long-term unemployment, why will present Government are having to make would be far, he not go through the Lobby with the Opposition in far easier. support of our amendment, which will guarantee I am afraid that the hon. Lady is not facing up to the jobs to people who are out of work for more than reality, and nor is her party doing so. This Government 24 months? are committed to giving a hand up, not a handout. What we want to see is people getting into work. What Gavin Williamson: The hon. Gentleman is living in we want to see is people doing well, and not constantly cloud cuckoo land. He will not answer the question that depending on the state. I asked. How many more families are there in which no one has ever worked? In fact, the number increased Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op) rose— from 184,000 to 352,000 under the last Labour Government. Is that a legacy to be proud of? I think that Members on Gavin Williamson: I will make some more progress. this side of the House would say that it is not. That is what we are hoping to do. That is what we are doing for our welfare reform, and that is what we are Margot James: My hon. Friend is making an excellent doing here today. We recognise that we cannot spend point about the legacy of the last Government. Perhaps money that we do not have. It is a simple fact and we he agrees with the economics editor of The Sunday hope that eventually the Opposition will adopt such Times, who wrote last week: fiscal responsibility. We hope that during the afternoon “It is hard to think of a period more conducive to control of they will suggest what they would cut if they vote in welfare spending than the Blair years, 1997-2007.” favour of their amendment. No one wants to see a restriction on benefit increases, Gavin Williamson: That too was an excellent point. but we all have to face the reality of the country’s What we have seen is total fiscal irresponsibility. The position. The coalition is dealing with that reality and whole idea of the Labour party’s proposals is to trap with the mess that the Opposition left us. That is what more people in welfare, not to take them out of welfare. we are getting on with and what we will deliver for this country. Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): My hon. Friend has made a very good point about Labour’s past record of fiscal irresponsibility, but what about its 3.29 pm current record? Labour Members will vote for millionaires Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab): Over the to receive child benefit. past hour and a half, the parties on the Government Benches have thrown various lines of argument into the Gavin Williamson: I am afraid that the Labour party’s mix, but possibly the most absurd is that the whole proposals on so many matters are completely inconsistent. agenda and the Bill are about deficit reduction. That The greatest shame is that there are no ideas coming argument is already in tatters. We have seen the economic from Labour Members. They have no ideas about how recovery deferred and a double-dip recession possibly to deal with the legacy that they left, in relation to turning into a triple-dip recession. The rate of reduction welfare reform or in relation to the many billions of of unemployment has been so slow since 2010 that it pounds of debts with which they have saddled the will not return to pre-recession levels until 2019, and we country. have seen a systematic and structural increase in under- employment. It is no wonder that total expenditure on Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab) rose— welfare, despite the protestations, has been going up. Let us take one example about which there has been a Gavin Williamson: I will happily give way to the hon. great deal of sound and fury over recent years—the Lady if she explains to the House what she will cut. I housing benefit bill. Over this comprehensive spending assume that she will be voting for the amendment. Will review period, this Government will spend £12 billion she shut schools in her constituency? Will she close more on subsidising private tenants than was spent by 213 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 214

[Ms Karen Buck] It is real children who are at increasing risk of going to school hungry, as teachers unions are already reporting, the Labour Government during the previous CSR period, and it is real children who will return to homes that so let us not hear anything from the Government about cannot be heated by parents who cannot manage to their successes on welfare reform and reduction and our balance all the bills. failure. We live in a country that apparently can afford tax For the first time in decades we see more working cuts for millionaires but requires low-income, working than workless people in poverty—now a record 6.1 million. families to go to food banks and pay their mortgages It is no wonder that the new head of the Secretary of with payday loans. Every day in London 100 homes State’s favourite think-tank, the Commission for Social bust the £1 million value level, yet 70,000 children were Justice, told an interviewer: homeless this Christmas. Today we should not be reducing “I would say we have missed in-work poverty”. the capacity of 9.5 million families and households Yes, the commission did, and yes, the Government did, across the country to pay their bills. but rather than the Government facing the evidence, we What the crash and its aftermath demonstrated beyond have been subjected to a barrage of rhetoric about the doubt was that the future cannot be like the past. We people behind the closed curtains and the shirkers rather want everyone who can work to do so, we want that than the strivers. work to be secure and fairly paid and for the costs that consume an unsustainable element of people’s incomes Meg Munn: Does my hon. Friend recognise that in to be reduced. half the workless households the adults are under 25, which is a reflection of the growth in unemployment Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): among that age group? Did my hon. Friend notice that the Secretary of State accused Labour of having a new idea with our job Ms Buck: That is correct; I recognise that figure. We guarantee? In fact, the pamphlet produced by my right have seen from the Bill and the debate behind it a hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill political debate and a set of wheezes that the Government (Mr Byrne) on a job guarantee is dated January 2012. think will pay off for them. The problem with wheezes We have been discussing these ideas for more than a is that they tend to fracture when they come into year. contact with reality. The Government cannot make serious money out of an assault on out-of-work benefits, Ms Buck: We have indeed been discussing these ideas. whatever the Conservatives like to say. Just 3% of all The future jobs fund demonstrated value for money in welfare spending goes on jobseeker’s allowance. Indeed, getting people back into work, but the Conservative all out-of-work benefits account for only 3% of GDP party, which claims to like evidence, trashed it in favour between them. The House of Commons Library advises of the Work programme, which, as we know, has been me that if only out-of-work benefits were subject to the less effective than doing absolutely nothing would have 1% cap, but in-work benefits were uprated as normal, been. 80% of the proposed savings would disappear. If one Without jobs, deficit reduction is doomed, however factors in the changes to the personal tax allowance, much the Government cheese-pare away at the income one finds that working people, as the Resolution Foundation of the poorest. While housing and child care costs demonstrated to us, take 60% of the hit. consume an ever-larger portion of the incomes of poorer families, work cannot pay and families cannot thrive. It If the Bill is passed, 2.5 million workless households is jobs, fair pay, affordable homes and good affordable will lose out by about £215 a year by 2016, and of the child care that will get us out of the trap we are in, 14.1 million working-age households with someone in whether it is the trap we want to spring to get people work, 7 million will be hit: 30% of all households will into work or the trap of deficit reduction. The trap that take a hit on their income because of this Government’s the Government are setting today will catch 30% of obsession with the tiny minority of long-term or households in a worsening squeeze on their incomes at multigenerational workless. the very worst time for them to be facing it. The distinction between those in and out of work is far less rigid than the Government would have us believe. That is an extraordinary piece of rhetoric, given that 3.36 pm the universal credit, the centrepiece of the Government’s Sarah Teather (Brent Central) (LD): People who welfare agenda, is designed to blur the distinction still come to my constituency office these days for help with further, and it has that one significant advantage of some kind of error in their benefits often spend the first seeking to do that. Millions of our constituents, in few minutes trying to justify their worth. They usually Conservative and Liberal Democrat constituencies as begin by trying to explain their history of working and well as in Labour ones, churn between those states of that they have paid tax. They are desperate to get over being in and out of work. Last year there were between the point that they are not like other benefit claimants—they 244,000 and 357,000 new claims every month for jobseeker’s are not a scrounger. It is perhaps a feature of the way in allowance, while between 242,000 and 370,000 left benefit which the term “scroungers” has become so pervasive in every month. social consciousness that even those on benefits do not It is a myth that the welfare reform agenda put attempt to debunk the entire category, only to excuse forward by the Government is about tackling worklessness. themselves from the label. It is an assault on low-income working families far Language matters. Politicians in this place know that, more than on working households. It is an assault on because all of us spend a good deal of time worrying both, and on very low-income families, but it is real and about how everything we say will be reported by the not mythical families who will be hurt as a consequence. media, just as journalists pore over every fact, comma 215 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 216 and noun we give to look for power shifts and personal Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): I divisions. Any modern political party devotes considerable thank the hon. Lady very much for giving way. I have money and effort to testing messages with focus groups sat for three or four minutes listening to her and I have to see how they would influence voting patters. However, never in my life agreed with her more. She is right about I am afraid we often spend less time considering how the language of the debate and about the percentages—it our language actually affects people’s lives, choices, values is monetary value that is important. and sense of worth, how they rub up against their Can the hon. Lady explain to me in any way how the neighbours and how society itself functions. removal of the best part of £6 billion from the economy In an atmosphere of uncertainty and limited resources in the next two to three years will stimulate the economy? and where every family in this country is struggling, How many jobs will it create, if any at all? there is a natural tendency to try to find someone to blame for our woes. A fissure already exists between the Sarah Teather: The fourth disingenuous point is probably working and non-working poor. Hammering on that that cutting the incomes of those at the bottom of the fault line with the language of “shirkers” and “strivers” income threshold will help boost the economy. All the will have long-term impacts on public attitudes, on evidence says that money put into the pockets of those attitudes to one neighbour against another. It will make at the bottom of the income spectrum is most likely to society less generous, less sympathetic, less able to be spent. That is precisely why my party argued so hard co-operate. The marginalisation of the undeserving poor during negotiations to ensure that we raised the threshold will place one group outwith society entirely over time of tax on the lowest paid. and leave them less able to make choices about their lives and to participate. That fragmentation of society, I do not enjoy voting against my own party, and I for me, is the spectre of broken Britain, and it is one cannot vote for the Labour amendment, but with a very that we hasten at our peril. heavy heart I shall be voting against the Second Reading of the Bill. I hope that I, and any others who choose Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con): Does the hon. that course of action, will give the Government some Lady not recognise that the nub of the whole argument cause for thought and reflection. is that if we allow benefits to be increased by more than salaries, that will increase the number of people on 3.42 pm benefits who are trapped in poverty and unable to afford to go to work? David Miliband (South Shields) (Lab): It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Brent Central (Sarah Sarah Teather: I will return to that point in a moment, Teather). because I want to make another point about public The truth is that all western economies need to refashion attitudes first. their social contract to cope with demographic and For those of us in this place who care about social economic change—expanding child care versus higher justice, long-term changes in public attitudes to poverty child benefit; housing benefit versus house building; and should give us other causes of concern, because it will long-term care versus reliefs and benefits for old age. In make it more difficult for any politicians who come each case, we need to choose. after us to argue for any option for the poor, because The Bill asks us to make three judgments: about public opinion will simply not support it. The irony, of fairness, affordability and politics. The Chancellor claimed course, is that, as many have said, many of those in his autumn statement that the Bill was about affected by the Bill are actually in work; many are the distinguishing working people from those same group who have already had a negligible pay rise and are already bumping along at the bottom of the “asleep, living a life on benefits.”—[Official Report, 5 December 2012; poverty threshold. For me, that is the first of a number Vol. 554, c. 877.] of disingenuous comparisons used to argue for the That has been blown out of the water by the facts that fairness of the Bill. The first is that those affected are have come out since; the facts unearthed by my right out of work, when many more are in fact in work but on hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State today are low pay. As the hon. Member for Westminster North damning. (Ms Buck) mentioned a moment ago, many of those are What of the 3,120 people in South Shields on income part of the group of people who cycle in and out of support or the 4,200 on jobseeker’s allowance alleged to work all the time; I see that in my constituency. be choosing a life of Riley? I have three points. Two The second disingenuous point is about percentages years ago, the Prime Minister said that he had ended the themselves, which fail to take into account the cuts to option of a life on benefits through the so-called Welfare housing benefit that families in my constituency will be Reform Act 2010. Secondly, the Government’s own experiencing in the next six months or so as the changes figures about the level of fraud show it to be 0.7%—by filter through. There are also the changes in April to the way, it is lower among immigrants to this country. council tax benefit; they will affect the same families Thirdly, the DWP’s own figures, published by the Secretary affected by the uprating provisions in the Bill. of State, show that more than 10 jobseekers in South The third point is whether percentages mean anything Shields are seeking every job. In all the talk of fairness, at all. Whatever goal posts are used to measure the that is what is unfair. percentage change in benefit across time, it is clear that the monetary value of rising average wages is significantly David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): Will the right more than that of benefits. Percentages do not buy hon. Gentleman elaborate on the statistic he gave? Do milk, bread or school uniforms—pounds and pennies immigrants not have a lower level of benefit fraud buy those things, and it is in pounds and pennies that because fewer of them are entitled to the full range of people will experience a cut. benefits? 217 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 218

David Miliband: I do not want to give the hon. out-of-work benefits should be receiving faster and greater Gentleman a maths lesson—I did not get good marks increases in their income than people on very low wages? in maths—but percentages are percentages; that is the Is that fair? whole point. If we change the denominator it plays through in the percentage that comes later. I do not David Miliband: Forty thousand soldiers are not on want to get too diverted by that, but I thank him for the out-of-work benefits but they are being hit by this Bill. extra 50 seconds. Eighty per cent. of the savings— Let me get on to the question of affordability, which is central to the Government’s case. The Government Kwasi Kwarteng: Answer the question. claim that the alternative to this Bill is higher borrowing or higher taxation, but I want to show why that is not David Miliband: I will address it directly; I am very true. The Government themselves have projected the happy to do so. If a couple on £5,500 a year or someone total cost of all benefits, all tax credits and all tax relief on £3,700 a year gets a 1% increase, that is different for the next few years, and I am happy to debate from someone who is on £15,000, £20,000, £25,000, priorities within that envelope. I will take the envelope £30,000 or £35,000 getting the same increase, because that they have set, but let us have a proper debate about although the people on £15,000, £25,000 or £30,000 are choices, not the total sum—a priorities debate, not an making tough choices, those on £5,000 or £3,700 are affordability debate. making a choice between feeding their kids and heating their home. Nadhim Zahawi rose— Nadhim Zahawi rose— David Miliband: Just a minute. David Miliband: Let me make some progress and I The measures before us raise £3.7 billion from poor will come to the hon. Gentleman if I have time. and lower-middle-income people in 2015-16. The Chancellor The truth is that this rancid Bill is not about affordability; cut tax relief for pension contributions by wealthier it reeks of the politics of dividing lines that the current people, but by how much? It was by £200 million in Government spent so much time denouncing when they 2013-14 and £600 million in 2015-16. The cumulative were in opposition in the dog days of the Brown saving from the richest between now and 2015-16 is Administration. It says a lot that within two years they £1.1 billion; the cumulative saving from those on lower- have had to resort to that dividing-line politics. We middle incomes on benefits and tax credits is £5.6 billion. know the style: you invent your own enemy, you spin Taking five times as much from poor and middle-income your campaign to a friendly newspaper editor, you Britain as from the richest in Britain— “frame” the debate. But the enemy within in is not the unemployed; the enemy within is unemployment. Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con) rose— I do not want to live in a society where we pretend that we can enjoy the good life while our neighbours David Miliband: I will come to the hon. Gentleman in lose their life chances. It is bad enough to have no a minute. economic growth, or 420,000 young people out of work Taking five times as much from lower and middle-income for more than six months, or rising levels of child Britain as from the richest in Britain is not equality of poverty, or declining levels of social mobility, but it is sacrifice. The Chancellor reminds me of the man at the hard to stomach a Government who take absolutely no top of a ladder in a 1929 election poster. The man at the responsibility for their mistakes. It is intolerable— bottom of the ladder has got water up to his neck, and [Interruption.] Government Members are laughing, but the man at the top shouts, “Equality of sacrifice—let’s I am ready to say what we did wrong; I have not heard all go down one rung!” It is not equality of sacrifice them say a word about what they are doing wrong. It is when you are up to your neck in water. intolerable to blame the unemployed for their poverty and our deficit. That is why I will vote for the amendment Kwasi Kwarteng rose— and against this rotten Bill.

David Miliband: I will come to the hon. Gentleman in 3.50 pm a moment. David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): It is never a The Government have made a great deal of the point pleasure to support any Bill that will leave some people that no one should receive more on benefits than the worse off, but Members of both Government parties do average wage of £26,000 a year, but they offer tax relief so out of a heavy sense of duty and responsibility, both of £40,000 for those with £40,000 spare. Just to be clear, to those who pay taxes and to those who receive them. that tax relief costs £33 billion a year, while we are It is unfortunate, to an extent, that this debate has been talking about a total bill of £42 billion for out-of-work framed, perhaps not in this House today, but in some benefits. If tax relief on pension contributions were quarters of the press, as a kind of battle between limited to £26,000 a year, we would not need this Bill. workers and shirkers or, even more regretfully, between That is the point about priorities and choices that need immigrants who have come to this country and are to be made. sponging off the state and those British nationals who have been here all their lives and paid taxes. Kwasi Kwarteng: The right hon. Gentleman gives a It is true that some people have come to this country very powerful speech in which he mentions lots of facts and have received too generous an amount in benefits. and statistics, but there is a very fundamental question It is equally true that a lot of eastern Europeans—I that he has not answered. Is it right that people on know that both points are true from the experience of 219 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 220 my own extended family, who are eastern Europeans—have Opposition Members simply have no credibility left. come to this country, sometimes speaking very little Government Members are going to take a difficult English and sometimes with qualifications that are not decision, but with absolutely no pleasure whatsoever. recognised here, and have managed to find work very We are doing so because what happened in 2008 was quickly, have used that work to get better jobs, and have bad, but it was nothing compared with the financial ended up contributing a great deal to our society. It is catastrophe that would engulf us if we continued to true that some British people have not wanted to take spend £120 billion a year that we do not have. on the jobs that have been snapped up by eastern Opposition Members and their many supporters outside Europeans. in the unions and the pressure groups have complained I would have no hesitation in saying to somebody about the bankers. I could complain about bankers as who is fairly young and in their 20s that they should be well. Why is it that these people want to put more willing to accept any job going, no matter how demeaning money into the hands of the bankers by borrowing it may appear. I have worked in nightclubs and done money from bankers, getting us more into debt and other low-paid work in my life. I would have more of a giving them greater amounts of interest? Who are the problem, however, with saying to people I know who true friends of the bankers—the people who are trying spent 20 or 25 years working for Tata—British Steel as to keep down their interest payments or the people who was—who lost their job through no fault of their own want us to be in hock to them? and who may be a father of three or four, “You have to I do not want to be a Member of Parliament who go to work in Starbucks on the minimum wage.” It is a presides over Britain being turned into Greece, but shame that we find it hard in our benefit system to without the sunshine. That is why I will vote for the Bill distinguish between different types of people, but that is today. thewayitis. We are not here to talk about penalising people; we are here because we have a simple problem, which was 3.55 pm put eloquently by the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) when he said that we do not Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): As someone who has have any money. been in this House for two and a half years and who in the past has been unemployed and has held low-paid Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): If the hon. jobs, I think that the mirth with which parts of this Gentleman is saying that that is the problem, why is he debate are being greeted will be seen with dismay by supporting a Government who are only too happy to many people outside this Chamber. give a tax cut of £2,000 a week to everybody earning The Bill is yet another example of the Government more than £1 million a year? How does that add up? demonising and punishing the most vulnerable in our How is that fair? society and making the poorest live in greater poverty. The most important fact to take into account is that the David T. C. Davies: Put simply, the total amount of Bill does not target only those who are out of work, tax that we are taking from the rich has increased, as whom I refuse to refer to as skivers, but those who are in my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has said, work on low wages. It does not affect just those in and that has not been denied by any Opposition Member. part-time work, but people who are in more than full-time The total amount of money that we are taking from the employment—people who regularly work long hours or rich has increased, which means that the total amount complicated combinations of part-time jobs just to that we have to take from those who are not so rich has make ends meet. gone down somewhat. That is how I would justify it. Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): Does my Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): It might be worth hon. Friend agree that the problem is not just with the reminding Opposition Members about the 10p tax fiasco 1% cap? A constituent came to see me before Christmas that they imposed on some of the poorest members of who had been made redundant last year by a local my community. They have not been forgiven for it. factory. His wife is a cleaner and he has now taken employment in a local garage serving petrol at night. He David T. C. Davies: I should also like Opposition will lose about £20 a week when the bedroom tax comes Members to recognise the economic truism of the Laffer in because the family home of 30 years is now deemed curve, which has proved that the more we try to tax the to be under-occupied. rich, the less we get off them. That is why so many people are queuing up to come over here from France at Ian Mearns: I could not agree more. My surgery in the moment, and good luck to them. We will have their Gateshead is regularly populated by people with similar money and spend it on less well-off people here. problems. This is a society that Government Members I have listened carefully today to Opposition Members do not understand. In the whole town, the average and I have not heard any of them explain how they income of a household is not much more than £20,000 a would manage to maintain benefits at their current level year. That is the income for the whole household, not or fund the increases that they want to impose. What for an individual. would they cut in order to fill that gap? What extra taxes would they impose on people? Would they simply Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): Surely the continue to do what Labour Governments have done way to help people on incomes of just above £20,000 is since the time of Attlee, which is just to borrow the to reduce the amount of tax that they have to pay. money they need in order to pay for projects that they What the hon. Gentleman is proposing is to tax them cannot afford? with one hand and give part of it back with the other. 221 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 222

[Stephen Mosley] of many children. The Bill fails any fairness test with regard to income distribution, and it fails the working The way to solve the problem is to do what the coalition poor, the job seeking, the caring and the disabled poor. Government are doing and remove them from tax It will push those at the bottom further down the altogether. ladder. The Bill is shrouded in smoke and mirrors. The Ian Mearns: What is shocking for low-income families Chancellor’s choice of start date to illustrate the rise of is the impact of VAT on their real income. Rises in VAT out-of-work benefits is 2007, but if we take a longer and other taxes of that nature have a disproportionate period, for instance beginning in 1979, we can see that impact on people on lower incomes. benefits have risen significantly less than wages. He talks about strivers and skivers, but I see something Mrs Moon: Will my hon. Friend give way? different on the ground—families scraping by in low-paid work or jumping from insecure jobs to benefits and Ian Mearns: I am afraid that I will not, because I need back again. The truth, unlike what the Government to make progress. keep spouting, is that the vast majority of those who rely on benefits and tax credits are either in work, have The shocking statistic is that the number of people worked or will desperately be trying to get into work in experiencing in-work poverty has risen to 1.6 million. the near future. They have made a contribution to Sadly, workers are increasingly reliant on welfare to top society, but their families are really struggling. up their low wages. The number of families receiving tax credits has risen by 50% since 2003 and 4.4 million Welfare to work is a two-part equation: welfare and jobs pay less than £7 an hour. We have to ask ourselves work. Where there is no work—in many parts of the whether we want to continue to support a situation in north-east there is not a great abundance of work—there which private employers in particular do not want to must be welfare that is enough to sustain families fairly. pay a living wage to the staff that they employ in order I know that in difficult times we all have to think about to make profits. ways of reducing the bills that face the Government, but let us do that in a way that is proper, productive As the Secretary of State knows all too well, a real-terms and economically and socially beneficial. Let us do it by cut will have a much greater impact on low-income stimulating, not stagnating, our economy; by unlocking households than on higher-income households because the huge investment potential of UK business; and by basic living costs make up a greater proportion of their creating hundreds of thousands of real jobs, building income. Even when a cut is proportional to income, it is houses and reinvigorating our infrastructure, not by often felt more acutely by a household on a lower punitively poisoning the minds of ordinary people and income, as a greater proportion of its income is spent punishing the poor. on essentials such as food, fuel and clothing. On Friday, The Daily Telegraph reported the managing 4.3 pm director of Waitrose as predicting that the prices of basic food such as bread and vegetables could rise by Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): This is up to 5% this year, and in the past few months utility obviously a difficult debate. Any debate that discusses companies have hiked up their prices—the biggest change cuts or limits to payments is difficult, and no one should that I have seen so far is 10.8%. How on earth are the take any pleasure in it. However, two fundamental low paid and those out of work supposed to heat their elements need consideration. The first is the tax credit homes and feed their families if their benefits are not system as a whole and its purpose, and the second is increased in line with inflation? Families are already how benefits in general relate to income. I will briefly having to make difficult choices between heating and take each in turn. eating. It is hard to believe that until the last general election, Make no mistake about it, the Bill is intended to anyone earning up to £60,000 a year could still qualify squeeze further the already squeezed. Analysis by Unison for tax credits. That was nonsensical and crazy. At the shows that in-work poverty is becoming the modern time, £60,000 was nearly two and a half times the face of UK hardship. It is estimated that the freeze average salary, but the Government of the day still suggested in the Bill will cost an average family with two chose to issue those privileged people with welfare children more than £1,000 by 2015-16. The Chancellor payments. may point to changes in personal tax allowances as the reasoning behind the Bill, but that will do little to offset Sheila Gilmore: The Bill is not about restructuring the shortfall in the income of working families. The the tax credit system but about placing a limit on an Child Poverty Action Group argues that a working uprate. Much restructuring has already happened: has family eligible for both housing and council tax benefit not £14 billion already been taken out of the tax credit will gain only 13p a week extra—13p!—as a result of system? The hon. Gentleman should address the issue the extended personal allowances. We should remember of uprating. the furore that the 20p upgrade in old-age pensions caused under the last Government, and in this case we Alun Cairns: I wish that the hon. Lady would at least are talking about 13p. It is a slap in the face for the allow me to create a context and develop an argument, working poor and their children. and that she would focus on the real issue and allow me The CPAG has also spoken of its grave concern to develop arguments on that. To me, someone who about the Bill, arguing that failure to earns £60,000 a year is quite privileged and should not “uprate in line with inflation will increase absolute child poverty, be receiving those payments. Nevertheless, that was the relative child poverty and the material deprivation” position inherited by the Government. 223 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 224

David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): Will my hon. Ian Austin: I would rather see people who earn more Friend remind the House what steps the Labour party than £150,000 make a contribution than take money off took to bring benefit increases closer to the world of the poorest people in Britain, which is what the hon. work when it was in office? Gentleman is arguing for today.

Alun Cairns: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that Alun Cairns: I would have much more respect for the useful reminder that the Labour party did nothing on hon. Gentleman if he told the House that that will be the issue. Few individuals—if any—would reject a benefit his commitment at the next general election. payment, even if in their hearts they were confused about why they were receiving it or uncomfortable with Ian Austin: We will announce our policies for the next that. The then Chancellor knew well what he was doing election but they will not be to give tax cuts to the and that withdrawing a payment after issuing it in the wealthiest people in Britain while hammering the poorest. first place would create a difficult and almost impossible That is what the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues are situation—the situation we are in now. Dependency on supporting today. the state became more widespread, and with that came a significant political shift to the left. The centre ground Alun Cairns: It is obvious that there are two options. of politics moved at that moment. It is, therefore, little Either that will not be a commitment going into the wonder that £90 billion is now spent on welfare for next general election, or the Labour Government introduced people of working age. the only temporary tax rate that would last almost During the seven years before the last general election, 10 years. I hope the hon. Gentleman will allow me, in tax credit spend increased by a staggering 258%—that the minute I have left, to develop my second point. is the context I wished to create in response to the hon. On benefits and incomes, it is difficult to believe that Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore). Adding out-of-work benefits have increased by 20% since 2007 insult to taxpayers’ injury, the tax credit regime was one and that earnings have increased by half that amount. of the most inefficient benefit systems ever devised, What is the incentive to work? The Labour Government leading to £2 billion of fraud each and every year. left a marginal rate of tax of 80% for some of the lowest Today’s Bill will lead to savings of £1.9 billion over two earners and those on benefits. What sort of incentive years, with the pain shared by those recipients whose was that to get people into work? They continue with increases in benefits will be limited. Although £1.9 billion the same principle in this debate. That inequality must is a significant sum, it does not go anywhere near the be resolved, particularly given the nation’s debt, the increases in spending introduced by the previous need to encourage people into work and the demand for Government, particularly leading up to the 2010 general structural changes in the economy to deliver growth. It election. is Labour’s policy to increase spending, taxes and benefits and to take us into a further spiral of increased borrowing, Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): Will the hon. spending and taxes. The people will not stand for it. Gentleman give way?

Alun Cairns: I will in a moment but I want to develop 4.10 pm my argument a little further. Presumably in an effort to drive the landscape even further to the left, tax credits Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab): I have sat increased dramatically—strangely—in the run-up to the through a lot of annual debates on benefits uprating, 2005 general election, and, by coincidence, in the run-up but I have never seen a turnout quite like this. Very to the 2010 general election. often the number of hon. Members in the Chamber is less than double figures. I hope today’s turnout reflects Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): Given the political the importance of the debate. The votes tonight will manoeuvring and increases in tax credits that my hon. have a profound effect on many of the most vulnerable Friend describes, which took place under the previous and poorest people in our society, whether they are in or Government, is there a direct correlation between the out of work. Based on the decisions we take tonight, for time that tax credits started, the start of the financial some families it will not be a case of whether to eat or crisis, and the substantial rise in the deficit created by heat. Towards the end of the two weeks or the month the Labour party? when universal credit is introduced, some families might have a few days when the children get neither food nor Alun Cairns: My hon. Friend makes an excellent heating, unless food banks, which are increasing, come point. The previous Prime Minister knew exactly what to the rescue. We should not wish that on our society in he was doing and he did it for party political ends rather the 21st century. than to support and help families who needed tax credits. Mrs Moon: An additional problem is that low-income Ian Austin: If the hon. Gentleman is so worried about families—some working, some not—will be faced with helping people further down the income scale, why does a decision when their housing benefit is paid directly to he support a tax cut for people who earn more than them of whether to pay their landlord or feed their £150,000 and a reduction in the living standards of the children. Does my hon. Friend accept that we are facing poorest people in Britain? a potential explosion in homelessness?

Alun Cairns: That is right on cue because I remember Dame Anne Begg: I thank my hon. Friend, because the 50% tax rate as being temporary.Is the hon. Gentleman she sets up my point on how the proposals undermine saying that he is committed to that rate leading up to the Government’s flagship policy of introducing universal and beyond the next general election? credit. Universal credit will create problems—she alludes 225 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 226

[Dame Anne Begg] will mean less support through universal credit for those moving into work. Unless the Government intend to the fact that it will be paid monthly, and that housing to change the tapers and the disregards—and I have benefit will be paid directly to individuals, who must heard nothing to suggest that—the difference between make the decisions she describes. being in work and out of work will not be very great, One big claim for universal credit is that it will make and on many occasions people could be made worse off work pay in all circumstances, but Government Members by increasing their hours or taking work in the first somehow cannot understand that making work pay place. means increasing benefits, because the majority of people I have always suspected that when the Government who receive the benefits that will be affected by the Bill said that no existing claimants would lose in cash terms are in work. The group who are out of work and the from the introduction of universal credit, it was their group in work are often the same people, as my hon. intention to reduce what people were receiving before Friend the Member for Westminster North (Ms Buck) the move to universal credit. This Bill confirms that that has said—they move in and out of work. is exactly what they intend. They seem to have missed The principle of universal credit is to smooth the move the essential point—to make work pay, the Government into work. The Government are freezing the benefits need to increase in-work support, not decrease it as this that make up universal credit statutorily for the next Bill will do. So when universal credit is introduced and three years. I do not know why we are not having the fails to be the magic bullet that the Government have normal uprating debate. There is no reason why the claimed—when it does not do all that has been claimed— measure must be in the form of legislation, which makes they cannot say that they were not warned. That is why me suspect that it is a political decision. The freezing of I will not support the Bill and will vote for the amendment. those benefits will tie the Government’s hands on the introduction of universal credit and could undermine it. 4.18 pm In spite of everything that has been said today, tax Jessica Lee (Erewash) (Con): It is a great pleasure to credits were a huge success. They increased the income follow the hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Dame of workers on low wages and made work pay. For the Anne Begg), who brings great expertise and experience first time in at least two generations, the poverty trap to the topic. While I may not always agree with her on was ended—I thought that it had gone for ever. There how to resolve welfare benefit issues, I always respect was a genuine poverty trap created by the previous what she has to say. Conservative Government and to all intents and purposes tax credits got rid of that. Almost everybody was better For me and many others in the House, the central off as a result of tax credits unless they lived in a high motivation for being here and practising politics is accommodation cost area such as London or they had a simple: it is to try to improve the country in which we large number of children. Work paid. The incentives live, to give opportunities to everyone, and to create an did not always work because work did not pay enough. environment in which businesses can flourish, jobs can Through the Bill, the Government are repeating the be created and young people can be equipped with the same mistake—the incentives to move into work under education and skills that they need to do well. At the universal credit will not be high enough to make work heart of every civilised society is the protection of those pay in all circumstances. who cannot work or care for themselves and need help. It is unlikely that many people will disagree with that Bill Esterson: My hon. Friend is making an excellent opening statement, but, as ever, it is where the balance point about the impact of universal credit. I am sure she falls. It is how fairness is achieved that often divides us is aware that the DWP itself says that 1.8 million main in this place. The underlying focus of the welfare state earners will be worse off if they take extra hours under must, of course, be to help to prepare and equip people universal credit than they are under the current for a life back in work. My concern is that over the arrangement. The figure for second earners is 300,000. years—in particular, under the previous Government—the admirable and compassionate aim of the welfare state, Dame Anne Begg: Indeed, and Barnardo’s has just of getting people back on their feet, in some circumstances published a report which says that families that depend provided an alternative lifestyle and lifelong income. on child care to allow the adults to work will be worse That is the issue that the House has to address on off if they increase their hours. The claims that are Second Reading, and in other legislation. being made for universal credit—that it will do away The work ethic was a central part of my upbringing. with the cliff edges, smooth the transitions and make I stand here as the first person in my family to study work pay in all circumstances—are false. The Bill will A-levels, let alone go on to university. I am very proud make that more likely to happen, not less likely. of my background. My mother was the main breadwinner Welfare benefits have already been attacked and reduced. in our family—she was a children’s nurse in the NHS for We have heard today about housing benefit. Still to more than 40 years. My late father worked in shops, in come are the changes to council tax benefit, and tax retail, and unfortunately had periods when he was not credits have been frozen for the last two years. We now in work. However, he always remained focused on the know that universal credit will be set at a level comparable importance of getting back to work, and my parents to the benefits that it will replace—income-related job instilled in me a strong work ethic, a desire to work hard seeker’s allowance, income-related employment support and to achieve my goals. allowance and housing benefit, as well as tax credits. If Role models are important in life, and the lack of those benefits have not increased with inflation, by the hard-working supportive role models can make the time universal credit comes in it will be set at a much challenge of getting back to work even harder. We now lower level as a result of the decisions taken today. That have nearly 2 million children growing up in homes 227 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 228 where no one works. Nearly 900,000 people have spent more than 60% of the welfare budget increases. How on at least 10 years claiming incapacity benefit. It can be earth it expected to make that financially viable I simply difficult to find the self-esteem and motivation to move do not know. At the same time, the number of the most back into work after such a period of time, but I have vulnerable and of children living in poverty increased, seen from this Government a commitment to encourage heading up to between 2 million and 3 million. The last people, and to provide and facilitate a way to get them Government failed to tackle the cause of worklessness, back and to reach their potential. and that is why we are in this difficulty. In my constituency of Erewash, many churches and I take full responsibility for every vote I cast and community groups are undertaking excellent work. One everything I say in the House—I am happy to do so church in particular, the Arena Church, undertakes a —but I can reassure my constituents that I do not think vast programme of outreach and supportive work. It anyone in the House takes these decisions on welfare tells me that it has seen people in the last year blossom, lightly. In the wider picture, however, of maintaining find their self-esteem and move back into employment, the safety net of the welfare state, preparing people for often after years of not working. work and setting them free from welfare dependency, today’s proposals are proportionate and necessary, and Mr Kevan Jones: What would the hon. Lady say to I will support the Government. the 59-year-old gentleman who came to see me on Saturday at my constituency surgery who suffers from 4.26 pm schizophrenia and has failed the work capability test? He has now been sent on a security guard course by his Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): Today, we are debating local jobcentre, which is totally inappropriate. Why do an uprating Bill that will result in a real-terms cut in we have a system that is so cruel to such individuals? support for people working and contributing to the economy. That paradox will not be lost on those hard- working families so beloved of spin doctors. I do not see Jessica Lee: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his how the Bill will promote the work ethic so beloved of intervention, and he takes up the case on behalf of his those on both sides of the House, and I do not see how constituent in this House. However, I put the responsibility it will enable working people to contribute more effectively squarely on his Government, the previous Government, in the savings culture. which expanded the welfare state with tax credits and left people on incapacity benefit who for too long were As a Welsh MP, I have to say that Wales will be hit never reassessed. That is unfair to those people and we particularly hard. Incomes in Wales are substantially need to recreate the entire welfare system to improve it. lower than elsewhere. Gross value added per head in Wales is £15,696, whereas in the UK it is £21,368—a Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): It is always worth difference of more than £5,500 per person. saying that there is no Government money, only taxpayers’ money. It behoves us to ensure that taxpayers’ money is Alun Cairns: Given what the hon. Gentleman has used as well as it possibly can be. said, is he comfortable that welfare payments are rising at twice the rate of earnings? Jessica Lee: I agree with my hon. Friend and thank her for her intervention. Hywel Williams: This point has been done to death this afternoon. It says a lot about the quality of the hon. The welfare budget has increased considerably over Gentleman’s argument that he repeats it continually. many years. The Department for Work and Pensions I do not think I will bother with it any further. already spends more than £90 billion a year on welfare for working-age people—£1 in every £8 that the Some 6.8% of households in the south-east of England, Government spend. Limiting certain social security benefits for example, claim working tax credits. In Wales, that to the 1% that is before the House today, and tax credits figure is 7.1%. In Gwynedd—my own area—9,200 families is a proportionate approach to funding welfare in the are on tax credits of some form out of 53,000 households. longer term. That is 17.5% of the population—nearly three times the Welsh rate. The point is that any cuts to in-work benefits My constituents in Erewash often say to me that for the low-paid will hit Wales and my constituency fairness works both ways. One gentleman said to me particularly hard. that he is working around the clock and his wife has two part-time cleaning jobs, and that they are trying their Mr Kevan Jones: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that best to keep things going. Like me, he wants to support the individuals receiving those types of benefit do not people in this society who, for whatever reason, will save the money, but spend it in their local communities? never be able to stand on their own two feet and get In areas of high unemployment, such as parts of my work, but that was not his point. His point was about and his constituencies, it will have a knock-on effect on the standard of living of other people in the area on full the local economy. benefits. He did not think it right that they should have a higher percentage increase than his family’s budget. Hywel Williams: Clearly, the hon. Gentleman is blessed The financial mismanagement of the welfare budget with clairvoyance, because that is my next point. People by the last Government—increasing and increasing tax on low incomes tend to spend locally and to spend all credits without the financial means to pay for it in the their money. The Welsh economy is overwhelmingly long term—has created an imbalance between families, made up of small businesses. That is a point for the hon. and it is not the fault of those families; it is the responsibility Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) to consider. of those in government at the time. The books have to Working tax credit reductions will suck demand out of be balanced and accountability is required. Between local economies and make matters even more difficult 2003 and 2010, Labour spent £171 billion on tax credits— for small businesses struggling to survive in the recession. 229 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 230

[Hywel Williams] Mr Ward: Yes; as a nation, our payments on benefits are, without a doubt, far too high. However, what we The uprating will also hit those seeking work. The face in this Bill seems to be a huge lack of confidence by Prime Minister talks of unemployed people abed while the coalition in its own policies and programmes to deal others are at work. We can almost see him in Shakespearean with that situation. mode paraphrasing King Henry: “Gentlemen in England None of us is going to support scroungers, skivers or now abed shall think themselves accursed they were not people who are fraudulently claiming disability benefits. out seeking work”—I can see him doing it anyway, but None of us is going to say that we should not support less extravagantly. Unlike the Prime Minister and his people into work, but we on the Government Benches friends, I do not think that the overwhelming majority say, “We are doing all of that.” We on this side of the of unemployed people are abed; they are seeking work. House say that we are dealing with the situation so that They want to work; they want to improve their lives and we can reduce the colossal welfare bill to the nation. It those of their children. For those who do not seek shows a huge lack of confidence for us then to say that work, there is a system of sanctions, and there has been we now need to go to the least well-off in the country for a long time, as the Secretary of State knows full well. and say, “You’ve got to make a contribution to deficit Poorer areas of Wales have long suffered from high reduction,” because if our measures work—we say they levels of worklessness and low levels of job availability. are going to work; we tell people how successful they To end the misery of unemployment, we need not only will be—what are we left with? We are left with those to help individuals with their skills and, in a small who want a job and cannot get one, even when they number of cases, their motivation, but to ensure there is have been through the Work programme. We are talking real work for people to do. Recently published Work about those who are disabled—and who have been programme figures for Wales show that success there assessed as disabled—who are not able to work. We are was the lowest in the UK, with only 1,380 of 42,380 people talking about those in work but on low incomes. Despite getting a job that lasted six months or more. That is a the confidence in our strategy, these are the people to miserable success rate, at only 3%. In Wales, more than whom we are now saying, “We’re not really sure, because 77,000 people are looking for work and claiming jobseeker’s we’re going to have to come to you, for you to make a allowance, while only 20,000-odd vacancies are being contribution as well.” posted in jobcentres. Across Wales, there are four people I have identified three arguments for this move. The chasing every job, with 11 people chasing every job in first relates to incentives, and states that work should Blaenau Gwent and 21 people chasing every job in the always pay, but I thought we were going to ensure that Rhondda. that happened anyway. Is that not what universal credit That brings me to Labour’s amendment. I have a was supposed to be about? The second argument is that question, to which I would like an answer—which might we cannot afford to do otherwise, but I did not see persuade me to back the amendment—in the wind-ups. much cutting back on the Olympics. I have heard various Long-term unemployed people might still be unable to suggestions, and yes, there are tough decisions to be find a job after 24 months of searching. Large-scale made. It has been suggested that we limit the tax relief work opportunities are just not available in many Welsh on pensions. We are seen as being able to afford to give constituencies, so my question is: under Labour’s scheme, tax reductions to millionaires, and of course we can would those people face penalties after 24 months? If afford to give rich pensioners winter fuel payments. Labour’s scheme were adopted, would we see benefit These are examples of the decisions that need to be cuts 24 months down the road for people who are not made, and there are many more, but we need to look at refusing to find work, but who just cannot find a job? all of them before we turn to the people on the lowest We in Plaid Cymru have been as good as our word—to incomes and those with no income who are surviving on the extent we can be—to the people of Wales, securing benefits. thousands of extra apprenticeships as part of the Welsh Government budget deal. We are now pushing for a Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): Does new procurement policy that would create 50,000 jobs the hon. Gentleman agree that the fiscal cliff deal made by sourcing public sector contracts locally. However, last week in America, which took the most money from Wales needs proper job-creating levers to improve our the top 2%, gave money to those on lower incomes and economy, not just handouts and certainly not workfare. is projected to increase growth by 1%, is a much better For example—this might be a domestic matter as far way of squaring the circle than the measures in the autumn as most Members in the Chamber are concerned—we statement, which will take money from the bottom 30% want full and early implementation of part 1 of the Silk to 50% and give it to those further up the ladder, which commission proposals. We also want the transfer of is reducing overall consumer demand? responsibility for Jobcentre Plus to the Welsh Government. Mr Ward: We all know that. We know about the There are answers to joblessness and dependence on multiplier effect on consumer demand. It is not a secret; benefits. At present, we in Wales look in vain to London it is well researched and we all understand it. and the London parties for those answers. The third reason for the proposals that I have identified 4.32 pm relates to fairness. A national debate about fairness is taking place at the moment. I am about to get really Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD): This is not a technical: there is a difference between somebody who difficult one for me. I believe that benefits are far too is unemployed and somebody who is employed. The person high—I think most people accept they are at an who is unemployed does not have a job. The person unsustainable level. who is employed has a job. They are not the same; we cannot compare them when we are talking about fairness Mr Kevan Jones: Too high? and a 1% increase. I will give the House another really 231 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 232 technical fact: those people who are on low incomes society who will be severely impacted by the change is and receiving tax credits are receiving those tax credits children? We are going to see an increase in absolute because they are on low incomes. It is very technical, poverty and relative poverty for children, which will this. How on earth can we compare those on low take us back to the level we had over 10 years ago. It is incomes or on benefits with people who are in a job? We wholly unfair that they should be prejudiced in this cannot say that it is unfair—or bizarre, according to the manner. Prime Minister—to give someone who is in a job 1%, but then give 2% to those on benefits. We cannot Derek Twigg: I agree with my hon. Friend, who compare the two. There is a difference between somebody makes a valid point, and I repeat that people, families, who is on benefits and somebody who has a job. The children will be made poorer by the Bill. The Secretary evidence for that is clear. of State refused properly to answer a question about the Of course, people who are in employment do not like disabled issue. He would not say how many disabled the pay freezes or the 1% increase, but is anyone seriously people would be affected, so that is a subject to which suggesting that they would give up their job to be we will certainly return. unemployed? Don’t be ridiculous! Let us not forget that Of course another group of people who will be badly we are eliminating the scroungers and all the rest of it. hit are women. Some 4.6 million women who receive In my experience, most people in work look at those child tax credit, including 2.5 million working women who are unemployed and say, “Thank God it’s not me!” and more than 1 million women who are caring for They do not say that it is unfair that their benefits are children while their husbands or partners are in work, being increased; they say, “There but for the grace of will be hit by this strivers’ tax. Even the Government’s God go I.” own impact assessment, which we have just got, I have mentioned the massive lack of confidence in acknowledges that that will be the case—and it is a our proposals, but there could be another reason for disgrace, if I may say so, that we received that impact these measures, although I hope that it is not true. It assessment at such a short time before this debate. relates to a sense that the public at large are in favour Those hit by the Government’s cuts include primary of these welfare reforms, egged on by opinion polls, and school teachers, nurses and, as we have heard, many that some people on the Government Benches see members of our armed forces who today are fighting that as an opportunity to attack the unemployed. I fear for this country. My constituents are increasingly suffering that that is being driven by a deep-rooted conviction that because of the rising cost of living. The costs of food, unemployed people are unemployed by choice. This is energy and fuel are crippling many families, who are what worries me. I hope that the explanation is in fact having to decide whether to buy a decent meal or to the lack of confidence, but I suspect, deep down, that heat the house. far too many people on this side of the House believe that unemployed people are the undeserving poor, that Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab): My hon. they need to sort themselves out, and that we cannot Friend mentions primary school teachers and nurses. possibly reward them with an increase. Let us remember, Does he acknowledge the figures in last Sunday’s edition too, that this is not an increase. When inflation is taken of The Observer in which chief executives of a number into account, the measure will simply freeze the level of of organisations, including children’s societies, Barnardo’s benefits that we have already decided will provide people and the National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux, with a minimum standard of living. The measure is not showed that a single parent primary school teacher or a fair, and I will not support it. nurse with two children stands to lose £424 a year by 4.39 pm 2015 while an Army second lieutenant with three children will lose £552 a year? Those are hardly people whom we Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): The Bill is without should describe as “scroungers”. doubt an attack on the living standards of those who are in work and on low or modest incomes, and of those who are in work on such incomes who are on disability Derek Twigg: My hon. Friend makes a strong point: benefits. The Government have tried to paint those who many people in work are being hit, and many of them are unemployed as lazy and as scroungers, but it is a would not usually be viewed by members of the public fact that the Bill will definitely make people poorer. as those likely to be hit by such changes. Many families on low incomes in my constituency are having great The Government are trying to cover up their failures difficulty finding the money to feed their families on the economy, and the Chancellor is now raiding properly—even to provide proper meals every day. We working-age benefits and tax credits by a total of £6.6 billion know that some children are going to school hungry. by uprating them by 1% over the next three years—a The problem is so bad in Halton that two food banks real-terms cut. Meanwhile, the Government are giving have been set up, and I believe that that is a regular 8,000 millionaires an average tax cut of £107,000—an feature in many poorer parts of the country. To add to average cut of £2,000 for every week of the year. In that, of course, are the appalling changes to housing comparison, people on jobseeker’s allowance will see benefit and the unfair cuts to local government funding, their benefit cut by 71p and people receiving the couples including changes to the treatment of council tax support, element of the working tax credit will see a minimum which will greatly increase the suffering in my constituency increase of 38p. Of course, the Secretary of State has and others where the poorest and the weakest will be admitted today for the first time that disabled people the most badly hit. will also see cuts as a result of the changes made. Frankly, the Government’s approach to welfare reform Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): I am grateful is cruel and vindictive, with cuts hitting the most vulnerable to my hon. Friend for making some strong points. Does the hardest. That is said even in the Government’s he agree with me that one other group of people in our own impact assessment, which acknowledges that the 233 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 234

[Derek Twigg] The Bill clearly constitutes a tax on those who work hard and a cruel, vindictive cut in the living standards poorest will be hit the hardest. It is a disgrace that this is of the poorest people in our society. The Government happening. I have been contacted, like many MPs, by should hang their heads in shame, and that applies many constituents who have suffered badly under the especially to the Liberal Democrats. benefits system, who have lost benefits or who have been denied them or treated badly. In many cases, these 4.46 pm people are in despair and at the end of their tether. We have to deal with such cases—day in, day out. It is Kris Hopkins (Keighley) (Con): About 40 years ago, therefore important to link that with what is happening I used to walk through a really run-down council estate today. on my way to school. The estate was poor, the people There are, of course, people who exploit the system, living there were poor, the housing was poor, and life and they should be dealt with severely, but the overwhelming expectancy and opportunities were very low. It is still number of people involved are honest and want to work the same today: 40 years on, the people living on that where they can. In my experience, those who can work estate have the same opportunities, or lack of them, that want to work. I have heard many tales of constituents they had in the days when I was walking through it. applying for countless number of jobs, but getting Successive Governments have failed to address the nowhere because jobs are either very hard to find or do problems of people who live in poverty in some of our not exist. Despite what the Secretary of State said, communities. This is not just about money; it is about a many want full-time employment. Many are being pushed lack of aspiration and ambition, about a failure to into part-time employment because there are no full-time understand the need to educate people, and about the jobs for them. The Government have no coherent policy need for people to develop skills. It is about a whole for growth and jobs. That is why people trust Labour range of things, and the solution is not simply money. I more on jobs and growth. We have given greater priority say that because now, when I look at estates like the one to job creation, which is why I support our jobs guarantee. that I mentioned, I see brand-new schools, and I see that all the houses have been done up, but the people are David T. C. Davies: Will the hon. Gentleman give still poor, still unemployed, and still dependent on way? benefits. The fact is that, regardless of the 1.5% difference between inflation and the uprating, if you have not got the brass you cannot give it out. The purpose of the Derek Twigg: I will not, because I have already given coalition must be to manage the deficit that we inherited way to two Members and others wish to speak. from the last Government, and we must change the Let me return to the Government’s decision to cut culture of dependency in those areas. benefits. We should not forget the announcement in the June 2010 Budget that from April 2011 the measure of Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman price inflation used for the uprating of benefits and tax talks of dependency. Does he not realise that the Bill credits would be the consumer prices index rather than will create a food-bank dependency in our nation? the retail prices index. That will have a significant impact on benefit rates and on future real-terms cuts. Kris Hopkins: I do not think that it will. I think that So in addition to what is happening today, a major cut the 900,000 or 1 million new jobs created by the Government is already taking place. The long-term assumption of represent the solution to the problem. We need to face the Office for Budget Responsibility is that the annual up to the drama in the welfare state. The hon. Member increase in RPI will be 1.4 percentage points more than for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) says that this is not about a the increase in the CPI. That means that after 10 years, dependency culture, but I can take her to places where benefits will be worth 86% as much as they would have people are trapped in a way of life that gives them no been had they continued to be uprated in line with RPI. incentive to go and look for jobs. That is the tragedy of The House of Commons Library research paper on the situation. the Bill states: “A decision to limit increases in benefits to below inflation for Mr Kevan Jones: I understand what the hon. Gentleman a sustained period is historically unprecedented. If inflation is saying about the dependency culture—he thinks that averages more than 1% over the three years, families claiming the if he repeats it enough, people will start to believe benefits and tax credits affected will experience a permanent real him—but what would he say to two people whom I met terms reduction in the support they receive.” in a local jobcentre last week? They were made unemployed It goes on to say that by AEI Cables in Birtley a year ago. They have the work “independent estimates of “Minimum Income Standards” suggest ethic. They are aged 51 and 52, they had worked for the that current out-of-work benefit rates for people of working age company since they were 16, and they have applied for are significantly lower than the amounts necessary for a minimum literally hundreds of jobs without success. Are those acceptable standard of living.” people part of the dependency culture? We should never forget that a large number of those who receive benefits are being paid a very small amount Kris Hopkins: No, obviously not, because they are of money, an amount that would surprise many people. going out there to seek a job. That is the key thing. I It is not the case that the majority, or anywhere near the thank the hon. Gentleman for the extra time. majority, are receiving massive sums. Members should We have put a benefit cap at £26,000, and that is net. go and talk to a young person who is unemployed, or a The vast majority of my constituents would be delighted single mum, or a couple, and ask about the benefits that to take home or have access to that amount of money. they are receiving—and now disabled people are also Far from doing something outrageous by increasing the being hit by the Government’s proposals. amount of money that people are going to get by 1% in 235 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 236 this climate, it is an admirable move by those on the our society, according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, Front Bench to facilitate that, bearing in mind the crisis but because of the way in which he attempted to justify that the previous Government left. his actions by deliberately vilifying people who receive We have made some choices about who we are going benefits as the new undeserving poor. By using pejorative to protect and who we will not. There is a debate about language, such as “shirkers”—he has used the terms disability, but I am pleased that we are protecting pensioners. “work-shy” and “scroungers” in the past—he sunk to a It was a commitment by this Government to protect new low, with a disgraceful misrepresentation of the pensioners and we have continued with that. I am very facts, a few of which I would like to put straight. concerned that the unemployed, those who are dependent, Myth No. 1 is that most people on benefits are out of those who are uneducated and have no skills, those with work. In fact, 68%—more than two thirds—of benefit limited opportunities to offer young people, are the recipients are in work. The majority of welfare beneficiaries families that are growing in my constituency. That is a are net contributors to the Exchequer. As my right hon. tragedy for the future of towns such as mine. We must Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) has break that cycle. It cannot be right that it pays to live on said, there is no evidence of a culture of worklessness in the state. this country—[Interruption.] I will repeat that: independent The resentment and anger are real in people who are research has shown that there is no evidence of a culture working hard. They have seen generations continue to of worklessness. According to the Joseph Rowntree claim benefit. Some of those are trapped, but some have Foundation and the New Policy Institute, 6.1 million no desire to go and work. People are making life choices people are in poverty but are working. That compares based on the fact that they can get money from the with 5 million people in out-of-work households. Government. As was pointed out earlier, that is taxpayers’ As we have heard, the Children’s Society’s statistics money. That cannot be right. When families see no show that the proposed cap on welfare benefits will increase in their income after their hard work and they affect 500,000 key workers—nurses, midwives, nursery see people on benefits receiving twice the increase, as school teachers, primary school teachers, administrative has been shown statistically, that promotes resentment workers, secretaries, shop workers, electricians, fitters in our communities. It is not just about strivers or and members of the armed forces. skivers. Failure to address the issue promotes racism and tension in communities, because somebody sees or Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): Can the perceives that somebody else is getting something that hon. Lady say what proportion of primary school teachers they are not getting. After all their efforts they do not are covered by those statistics? see the benefit of working so hard. Debbie Abrahams: I cannot because I do not have the Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and figures to hand, but I am happy to provide them later. Lesmahagow) (Lab) rose— The evidence is there. Scenario modelling has been done—[Interruption.] If I could finish the point. Scenario Kris Hopkins: No, I will not give way. modelling is available showing exactly how many have I have great sympathy for all the people who go out been assessed. there, graft hard and pay their dues, and then look over next door where the curtains are closed or see estates Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): Will the where people are not ambitious, not aspirational, have hon. Lady give way? failed in education and failed in skills. It is the responsibility of those on the Government Benches to address that, as Debbie Abrahams: I will not give way at the moment. much as it was with the previous Government. In I will finish my point and then make some progress. another 30 or 40 years I do not want to see people living in poverty because they have been abandoned and The Children’s Society’s analysis shows that between people keep sustaining those estates. Society backfills £500 and £400 will be lost per annum by key workers sink estates in constituencies such as mine. such as a second lieutenant in the armed forces or a primary school teacher. We do not take decisions about welfare lightly. We take them extremely seriously, as my hon. Friend the Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): In Member for Erewash (Jessica Lee) said, but we on the addition to the scenario my hon. Friend is outlining, Government Benches are on the side of hard-working these cuts come on top of the fact that the move from individuals. That is why I support the Bill. RPI to CPI for benefits will push a further 4 million children into poverty by 2020. 4.53 pm Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) Debbie Abrahams: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. (Lab): I rise to speak on behalf of the many constituents The Institute for Fiscal Studies has shown that nearly who come to see me every week in my constituency half a million more children will be living in poverty by office because they have been affected by the Government’s the end of this Parliament, and that is without taking attacks on our welfare system. I have said this before into account the 1% drop. Families up and down the and I will continue to say it: at every point we must country are struggling. Food prices have increased by challenge the ideology underpinning these so-called 26% over the past three years, almost as much as energy reforms, including the Bill, and the divide-and-rule prices. That is a real cut for ordinary families. narrative that the coalition Government have developed. The second myth I would like to expose is the claim I know I was not alone in being deeply offended by that welfare benefits have increased more than average the Chancellor’s autumn statement, not only because earnings. In fact, since 2002 average earnings rose by the cuts he put forward will affect the poorest 10% in 36% while jobseeker’s allowance, for example, increased 237 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 238

[Debbie Abrahams] 5pm Mr Aidan Burley (Cannock Chase) (Con): In the by 32%. Between 2007 and 2010, to ensure that work short time available, I want to nail a couple of myths pays, benefits for people in work rose by 53.1%, compared that have come up in the debate and give the view from with 46.9% for out-of-work benefits. The Government Cannock Chase. have also claimed that the 1% cap will offset increases in tax thresholds. We know that at least 682,000 working The first myth is that we are giving a tax break to the families receiving child tax credit earn less than £6,420, wealthiest in society.The answer that the shadow Secretary so they will not benefit from those changes in tax credits. of State would not give earlier is that over a 13-year period, the Labour Government had a 50p tax rate for I was going to refer to the myth that we need to do 37 days. The idea that we are giving the rich a tax cut is this to reduce the deficit, but that myth has already been just a sixth-form debating point; the Labour party had blown out of the water in other contributions, so I will 13 years to introduce the 50p rate, and they introduced not go on about the fact that growth has been downgraded itfor37days. yet again, we are borrowing more than anticipated and our economy is one of the worst performing in the G7. Let us nail another myth. Although many people in work get benefits, there is evidence of a culture of The Government’s response to their failing economic worklessness, whatever the Joseph Rowntree Foundation policies is what? It is to give tax breaks to the wealthiest says. If hon. Members do not believe me—[Interruption.] in society. Some £3 billion is being given to 300,000 people Give me a second. Let me read the House a summary of earning more than £150,000 a year, with an average gain an interview on LBC radio in December. A man called of £10,000, and the Government are making people on Paul phoned in to say that it was not his fault that there low incomes pay for it. According to the Office for were no jobs out there. He said: Budget Responsibility, £500 million will be saved as a “Why would you work for low wages, can’t really understand result of the 1% cut in 2013 and just over £2 billion in that, what’s the point? I was offered a job two weeks ago; they 2014, but that money could also be saved if the Government wanted me in there at 8 am in the morning.” made different choices. It is clear where the Government’s The presenter said: priorities really are. The choices that the Government have made are underpinned by their ideology. “And you didn’t want to do that job?” Paul replied: Several hon. Members rose— “It’s ridiculous, that time!” The presenter asked: Debbie Abrahams: No, I am not going to give way any “What time would you finish if you started at 8?” more. Paul answered: That ideology is to demonise people receiving benefits, creating antipathy and resentment and an “us and “Well it finished about 4, but that time in the morning is too early. Most people start at 9 don’t they?” them” culture. Through the withdrawal of universal benefit such as child benefit, the Government show an The presenter, getting angry now, said: irrelevance of the welfare system to non-welfare-recipients; “No, people start work at all hours. If I was in charge and you meanwhile, they are dismantling the welfare state. turned down a job for that reason I would cut your benefits. You lied you said no work out there. There are people out there I am proud of our model of social welfare, born of struggling every single day who would love to get that job, frankly the second world war, when we were literally all in it you can’t be fagged can you?” together. I want to retain that model, with its principles Paul said that he would love to have the job but he was of inclusion, support and security for all, protecting any not willing to start at 8, only at 9.30, to which the one of us who should fall on hard times and ensuring presenter replied: our dignity and the basics of life to help us get back on “I am outraged by what you just said.” our feet. Let us not pretend that there are not some people who Fortunately, the British public are seeing through the cannot be bothered to work. Government. As British social attitudes surveys have consistently shown, they want not a divided society but Mr Kevan Jones: I am not sure whether that anecdote a fairer, more equal one. That has been reflected in should lead us to any wider conclusion. The only recent opinion polls on benefits. When the Government’s worklessness in the Chamber today is on the Tory Back myths are exposed to people, most do not support them. Benches—there has been an average of only 12 Tory Back I do not want ours to be a country where we impoverish Benchers all afternoon. children and rob them of their futures. We need to get the economy moving again and I hope that the Chancellor Mr Burley: I have been here since the beginning of and Secretary of State will listen to my right hon. Friend the debate, waiting patiently to speak. the shadow Secretary of State’s proposals about how I move on to my constituency. The House of Commons we do that. If they do not, we are in danger of losing a Library shows that average wages in Cannock Chase generation, storing up health and social problems for rose by 6% between 2007 and 2012. During that same the future—and seeing a divided Britain, not a one period, benefits went up by 20%. Where is the fairness nation Britain. in benefits going up by 20% when pay has gone up by only 6%? Do not take my word for it. This is what a Several hon. Members rose— local police officer e-mailed me last year when we uprated benefits by 5%: Mr Speaker: Order. In a bid to accommodate more “Why has the Conservative Government given a recent rise in colleagues, I am afraid that I am reducing the time limit benefits money…to the unemployed when Nurses, Police Officers, for Back-Bench speeches from five to four minutes Fire and rescue workers and all other public sector workers have each, with immediate effect. not received a pay rise for over two years?” 239 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 240

It is a fair question, and I do not know the answer. doubt be grateful that pensioners have been spared this What I do know is that if the rate of inflation is not cut in their benefits, but that is probably down to Lord sufficient to warrant an increase in public sector pay Ashcroft having identified what a key group they are beyond 1% in April this year, it cannot be so high as to and putting their benefits off limits. require an increase in benefits beyond that either. I am afraid that these proposals look like an ambition This is what another constituent who recently contacted to create division between those who have little and me said: those who have less. That sits comfortably with the “I have a friend who has a partner, neither she or he work and values and politics of a particular kind of Conservatism. have not worked for as long as I can remember. They are both fit This is called an uprating, but 1% rises over three years and healthy and perfectly able to work they just do not want to. really represent a cut of 4% in the spending power of They openly admit there is no point in finding work as they would those already struggling. Citizens Advice estimates that not have enough money to live on. She stated to me that in order when we take tax changes into account, a family with to get close in wages to what they receive in benefits that they would both have to get a job.” two children paying £130 per week in rent and earning just above the minimum wage will be almost £13 per This is the perverse reality of where we are now—that it week worse off. That is before we take food and energy pays people not to work and they are better off at home inflation into account. No wonder people are being on benefits even though they could work and in many driven into the arms of payday loan sharks. cases want to. Tellingly, the constituent went on to say: “Some time ago she”— Income transfers for those on modest incomes, for example, are recognised throughout developed economies her friend— as exactly the kind of fiscal stimulus needed when “let it slip out that she claimed £500 a week in benefits, I recessionary pressures are highest, but the Chancellor is was…astounded and furious and pointed out that it was twice my doing the exact opposite. A total of 4.6 million women wages. I am…aware that some people are unable to work and in will lose their tax credits, including 2.5 million working genuine need…but surely people on benefits who are MORE than capable of working should not be living a life of…luxury women and more than 1 million who care for their and be financially better off than those who…earn a living? These children while their partner works—the same people people are playing the system…whilst…genuine hard working who are also having their maternity benefits cut. Lord people struggle to have a life.” Ashcroft calls them “suspicious strivers”. In his words, Those are the real words of a real constituent in an area they fear they are one more redundancy, one interest where the average salary is £22,500, and Labour Members rate rise or one tax credit change away from real difficulty, ignore those words at their peril. [Interruption.] and they would not want to rely on a Conservative Government if they found themselves in trouble. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. Mr Stewart Jackson: For the record, 42,654 people in Mr Burley: The Opposition have argued that this the Peterborough constituency will be better off under uprating of 1% will impact on working people and not the tax changes in April. Is the hon. Gentleman not just those on benefits. Given that the previous Government ashamed that under his Government, who presided made 90% of workers eligible as welfare recipients, that over 16 years of economic growth, more than 1,000 people is inevitable. Unfortunately, Labour Members make the in my constituency were parked on invalidity and incapacity mistake of taking these measures in isolation. If we take benefit for more than 10 years. That is shameful and it is the Government’s measures as a whole, including tax his Government’s record. allowances, energy tariff changes and cutting petrol duty, low-income working households will be better off. Steve McCabe: I cannot wait for the hon. Gentleman It is time to end the ridiculous money merry-go-round. to have to meet all those people who are better off at his Let us take people out of tax and off benefits. Labour advice centre. used to be the party of the working man; it is now the party of the workless and welfare. I look forward to The International Monetary Fund regularly warns fighting them on the doorsteps as they take that message about the dangers of cutting the automatic stabilisers in to the electorate. [Interruption.] these economically fraught times, yet that is exactly what is happening. It is estimated—the IMF is the source Several hon. Members rose— —that these benefit cuts will contribute to a £40 billion reduction in the country’s output when we desperately Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. Before I call the next need the opposite to happen. speaker, let me say that shouting back and forth really As well as implementing benefit cuts that defy economic does not help the debate, and I am finding it difficult to logic, the Chancellor has set up a special hotline for listen to what the speaker is saying, so please let us have Tory MPs who are confused about his benefit changes. less of it. I call Steve McCabe. Special hotlines for Tory MPs, Government cars to cushion Ministers from rail-fare rises, and specially arranged meetings to cover the transport costs if they 5.7 pm want to watch the European cup final—yes, they are Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): I definitely all in it together. apologise for being absent for part of the debate while My contention is that these decisions do not make attending duties at the Home Affairs Committee. economic sense, are not fair and will punish the very The one inescapable fact is that however much the people who are striving and struggling to make ends Chancellor talks about shared pain, we are discussing meet while the Chancellor’s millionaire friends are prioritised real cuts to benefits at a time when he thinks it is okay for tax cuts. That tells us all we need to know about this to prioritise tax cuts for millionaires. We should no Government’s values. 241 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 242

5.11 pm Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con): Does my hon. Friend agree that when there is a limited pot of Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): The money, it is better to spend it on high-quality advice problem with this debate is that nobody has gone back and support for people such as older workers who are to the idea of what the social security welfare state was back in the job market and are struggling to cope than for. It was brought in to make sure that people who were on increasing an already enormous welfare bill? That in desperate need at a time of unexpected circumstances kind of advice is long overdue and has been long did not fall into poverty. When somebody lost their job, neglected. [Interruption.] that often meant they were stuck. That is why the social state was created. Alec Shelbrooke: I thank my hon. Friend for those I have sat throughout this debate and listened to comments. I just heard Opposition Members say from a many a speech, and the only Opposition Member who sedentary position—we have heard this several times has spoken with any passion is the hon. Member for today—that there has been a tax cut for millionaires. Gateshead (Ian Mearns). He gets it—he knows what Let me be blunt. All the evidence shows that when the the welfare state is about. All the other speeches by 50% tax rate came in, £7 billion disappeared from the Opposition Member have, I am afraid, been about pure Exchequer. Today’s policy will save £1.4 billion from political point scoring. I do not doubt for one minute the welfare state bill. If Labour had not brought in the that the vast majority of Opposition Members care 50% rate, we would not have had to introduce this deeply about the poorest in society, as we do on the policy. Opposition Members cannot pick and choose Government Benches. the arguments; they have to look at things consistently and completely. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Will the hon. This debate has shown that the Government are Gentleman give way? trying to ensure that we have a fair system of social security that is there when people unexpectedly fall into Alec Shelbrooke: Just give me two ticks. The constant terrible circumstances. Several Opposition Members mocking that has gone on is shameful political posturing. have described people who have been made redundant recently and who need to rely on the welfare state. That Jim Shannon: The two commodities that have seen is what social security is for. That is why people pay the highest inflation are food and fuel, which affect their national insurance contributions—so that they do those on a low income more than anyone else. Does the not fall into the starvation and poverty that existed hon. Gentleman think that the Secretary of State’s before the welfare state. What is shameful about the benefits cap will enable those people to come out of Opposition, as has been shown today, is that the Front poverty and go for jobs? Benchers are not linked up with the Back Benchers. The Back Benchers believe in caring for people, whereas the Alec Shelbrooke: The hon. Gentleman mentions rising Front Benchers are trying to score political points. If food inflation, but let us not forget that we have just the Labour party once again votes against reforming knocked 10p off the price of a litre of fuel. That 10p social security, let the message go out to the country was in the Opposition’s plans and would have created that it is not interested in the poorest in society, but is extra inflation. interested only in bribing the electorate to try to get This debate has been polarised, but a divide has been back into power. in existence for more than a decade and it is coming to the fore. As soon as we try to address it, we are described 5.17 pm as nasty and heartless and told we are not dealing with Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): The proposal is people fairly. The fact is that too many people in this to limit the increase in working-age benefits to 1% for country have the wrong idea about benefits, which is the next three years, which is an effective cut. Let us not a dirty word. make no mistake: for anyone who relies on benefits for all or part of their income, this will be a “poverty-producing Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): The divide has not policy”. Those are not my words, but the words of the been in existence for just the past decade—Lady Thatcher Child Poverty Action Group. Working families are finding and Geoffrey Howe hatched a plan to dismantle the it hard to get by financially after two years of freezes in welfare state more than 30 years ago. Is this Bill just child benefit and working tax credit, and cuts to child another phase in bringing the welfare state to a conclusion? care tax credit, housing benefit and support for new parents. It is no wonder that the CPAG is warning that Alec Shelbrooke: In the past 10 years, people have the number of children living in absolute poverty will rise. said time and again, “Why should I do this when Let us look at what the proposal means for a full-time someone on out-of-work benefits gets double the pay worker on the minimum wage. In a response to my hon. rise I get?” That is a fact. Wherever we may want to lay Friend the Member for Stockport (Ann Coffey), the the blame and whichever way we may want to look at Treasury confirmed that the working tax credit lost in the issue, the fact is that people do not believe in the 2013-14 by people who are working full time on the welfare state in this country any more. That is not just a minimum wage, due to the Government’s freezes and tragedy; it is deeply worrying for this country. the increase in the earnings taper, will be £475 for a The measures being taken by the Secretary of State, single person with no children and £660 for a couple which we will vote through, will bring back some fairness with one child. Contrary to the assertions made in to society. They are part of a big package of measures. Parliament, the amount of working tax credit lost by However, we have a problem. We all want to give as families with one earner on the minimum wage will be much money to people—of course we do—but we cannot greater than their saving of £420 in 2013-14 from the afford it. increase in the personal tax allowance. 243 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 244

Many of my constituents work in low-paid retail the welfare system is akin to not supporting vulnerable work. I am grateful to the Union of Shop, Distributive people is nonsense. In fact, I would argue that a shrinking and Allied Workers for the survey of its members, who welfare budget would be a key indicator of a successful all report how difficult it is to manage with the rising welfare system. cost of food, fuel and other everyday items. Many That brings me to my second point which is about the report that they have turned off the heating at certain wider welfare situation that we inherited in 2010. It was times in the month. Tracey said that although both she creating a culture of sheer dependency in certain parts and her partner work, after paying for the rent, gas and of the system and contributing towards the dangerous electric, they often find it so hard to manage that they social divide that my hon. Friend the Member for go without food so that their children can eat. Keighley (Kris Hopkins) touched upon. That situation is confirmed by the Oasis food bank in my constituency, which has recently begun to operate. Mr Ward: I welcome the fact that you welcome a Although I support its good work and pay tribute to it, safety net. Do you not agree that unless you increase I deplore the fact that such organisations are needed benefits by the rate of inflation, you are lowering that in the 21st century. The food bank tells me that many safety net? working people come to it as they simply cannot make their money stretch to the end of the month, and we Julian Sturdy: As you rightly said in your speech— know that more people are turning to payday lenders simply to get money to spend on essentials, not on Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. There luxuries any more. It is no wonder those payday lenders are too many uses of the word “you” for my liking. It is are circling the estates. not about me. The people affected have not made a lifestyle choice. They are working people such as the one who came to Julian Sturdy: I apologise, Mr Deputy Speaker. my surgery who gets up at 5 o’clock to do two cleaning The safety net in the welfare state system is important, jobs. It is not a lifestyle choice for those who are out of but I support the 1% uprating. The point was made work, either. It is a situation that they find themselves earlier that if we are really to focus on the problem, we in, like the young man who worked at Comet and lost have to consider inflation as well. If we can keep inflation his job, and is now competing with seven others for down through Government measures, as we are at the every job in my constituency. He was almost in tears at moment, that is an important part of the system. having to claim benefits, and I can relate to that: I claimed benefits myself for a few months in the mid-’80s An effective and fair welfare system should support when I was left with a young daughter, and it has left an those who tragically suffer from difficult medical conditions indelible mark on me. I know what it feels like to go and and those who find themselves in abject poverty. However, sign on—it hurts, it really does. benefits that are simply rolled out and increased without question and without any regard for the wider economic Those in work who are struggling to make ends meet situation threaten to give our whole welfare system a and those out of work who are desperate to find it are bad name. Thus our benefits must always be questioned, the people who are bearing the brunt of the Government’s our welfare system always honed and the key question failed economic policies, not the high earners and of fairness always addressed. The votes in the House millionaires who are getting a tax cut of £107,000 this later today must be made with fairness in mind—fairness April. It is not fair, and it is not right, and I am proud to to those who receive benefits and those whose taxes pay vote against the Bill and defend the 8,100 people in my for them. constituency who are claiming working tax credits. We cannot adequately or logically debate this issue without considering the fiscal implications of increasing 5.20 pm benefits and the fairness of those implications. The key fact used by the Secretary of State—that over the past Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): It is a great privilege five years some benefits have increased by 20% while to be called to speak in this sensitive and important workers have experienced an average pay increase of debate. Any debate that focuses on our welfare system 10% to 12%—is enough to set alarm bells ringing. If we tends to provoke a great deal of passion, and it can be are to ensure that our welfare system is a source of all too easy for politicians of all parties to fall into pride and not resentment, we cannot justify such increases lazy arguments based on simplistic generalisations or when wider taxpayers are suffering in a tough economic preconceived ideas. climate. Our welfare system is a valuable part of our social fabric. Even a believer in a small state, like me, can Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West) (Con): Does believe that we should unquestionably support those in my hon. Friend agree that this debate is essentially our society who fall on desperately hard times, either about two things—first, whether people on benefits temporarily or permanently.For those who find themselves should receive an income that rises faster than those truly in need, support must be provided through our who earn wages, and secondly, for those in work, whether welfare system as a safety net for the most vulnerable. it is better for the Government to take a lot of money However, the idea that our welfare system was sufficiently and give it back in tax credits, or whether they should reliable or fair upon the formation of the coalition take less money in the first place and introduce tax cuts? Government in 2010 is simply ludicrous. First, the I, together with most people in the country, believe it is system that we inherited was simply unaffordable, costing better for the Government to take less money away, and taxpayers more than £87 billion in 2010 alone. Such thanks to this Government almost 2,000 people in enormous outgoings must be reviewed and targeted for Bristol North West have been taken out of tax altogether efficiencies. To suggest that a desire to reduce the cost of from April, and 40,000 people will get a tax break. 245 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 246

Julian Sturdy: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend; I It will remove millions if not billions of pounds from will always believe that the Government should take communities up and down the UK, making it harder less tax from people in the first place, rather than taking for people to spend and therefore kick-start the economy. it and giving it back in some other form. Mr McKenzie: I could not agree more with the hon. The welfare system—including benefits—is a delicate Gentleman. The Bill will take many millions out of balancing act and by ignoring valid concerns about the local economies and have a double kick on the downturn. system’s cost and efficiency we risk its future reputation and, by extension, its effectiveness. Capping benefit Incredibly, the Government take from struggling increases to 1% for the time being is a step of reason households and give to millionaires. As I have said, at that will add to the Government’s wider package of the same time as the Government are giving tax cuts to welfare reforms to rebalance our welfare system for the millionaires—as we have heard, some cuts are in the benefit of claimants, while also helping to restore public region of more than £2,000 per week—the Bill effectively confidence in the fairness of that system. means a permanent reduction in benefits, which could have a devastating effect when a proper safety net is We should all remember and appreciate that decisions desperately needed by millions of the most vulnerable on such matters have a real impact on real lives. Nevertheless, people in Britain. to improve the fairness, efficiency and effectiveness of It is highly likely that this regressive change will lead our welfare system for those most truly in need, I to an increase in poverty, especially for those who are believe that the measures in the Bill are both necessary already facing a perfect storm of cuts to public services and justified. As in many areas of government, our and rising prices. Clearly, the Bill is an attack on hard- tough decisions will not only reverse deficits and improve working families, who are paying the price for the efficiencies but will save some of the public provision Government’s economic failure. It is without doubt an that the Opposition drove to the brink of bankruptcy attack on striving families. In my Inverclyde constituency, when in office. I therefore urge all Members to support 6,300 families receive working tax credit. They are being the Bill today. asked to pay the price for the Government’s failure, 5.27 pm while millionaires—believe it or not—get a tax cut. Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): The Chancellor In Inverclyde, the number of unemployment claimants intends to take a further £6.7 billion from benefits and means that 15 people chase every vacancy.The Government tax credits over the next four years by capping the would suggest they use the Work programme. Where increase in them at 1%. That is a real-terms cut and an can I start with that? My constituents never hear from additional squeeze on families, because of the Chancellor’s the Government where they can start work. The Work failure to create growth in our economy, and the delivery programme has delivered less than 1% in my area, instead of a double-dip recession. The Government which is a disgraceful and pitiful success rate. told us that they would bring down borrowing, but they The best way to reduce the cost of welfare is to get are now borrowing an £212 billion more than planned. people back into work. The truth is that the Government’s The Chancellor claims that he is cracking down on a failure on the economy is pushing the dole bill through benefits culture, but hard-working lower and middle-income the roof. That is why Labour propose real jobs for those working families are those hit hardest by the Bill. Many who have been out of work for two years or more. working families need tax credits and benefits to top up Scotland stands to gain most from the introduction of their incomes, as without them work really would not the compulsory jobs guarantee. Long-term unemployment pay. Just 23% of the savings come from jobseeker’s has been rising faster in Scotland than in any other part allowance, employment and support allowance, and of the UK. income support—the principal out-of-work benefits. I shall conclude, because other hon. Members wish to The rest comes from tax credits such as maternity pay, speak in the debate. The welfare bill is going up under sick pay and housing benefit, all of which are claimed this Government—it is a staggering £13.6 billion higher by working people. than forecast—because they are failing to get Britain Some 60% of people affected by the changes to tax back to work. The Government need to practise fairness, credits and benefits are in work, and one-earner working but the Bill fails on fairness and on the economic tests, families could lose as much as £534 per year at a time which is why I will support the amendment. when more than 6 million people in working households 5.32 pm are already in poverty. Levels of long-term unemployment are worryingly high, because the Government have Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): Sometimes failed to kick-start the economy and their Work programme when I listen to debates in the House—on a number of has failed. Even excluding the 60% of working people subjects—I wonder whether the great British public are, affected by the changes, this is hardly the time to start frankly, astounded at the lack of acceptance of the picking on the unemployed. The Government are always genuine economic crisis facing this nation. The coalition prepared to talk about skivers when unemployment is Government exist only because of the situation we high and they are worried about costs, but never want inherited back in 2010. Last year, we found out that the to do so when job vacancies are relatively numerous and situation was worse and that it would take longer to get unemployment is low. Surely, if the Government wanted better. We had honesty from politicians—[Interruption.] to inconvenience so-called skivers, this is not the time to The hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and target them, when large numbers of people are without Lesmahagow (Mr McCann), the Parliamentary Private work and reliant on benefits. Secretary, says ludicrously from a sedentary position that we created the current situation, but the great Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) British public know full well that it was the hon. Gentleman’s (SNP): Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the reform party and his previous Government who created it. will make it more difficult to kick-start the economy? What an absurd statement! 247 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 248

The simple reality is that the current situation means disability carer and pension premiums in the ESA support that there are very difficult decisions to take. The Bill is group have been excluded and will continue to get one of them. It is a serious matter, and there have been benefits uprated by CPI— sensible, helpful and thoughtful contributions to the debate from Members on both sides of the House, but Ian Austin: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? other speeches, frankly, have just scored party political Greg Mulholland: No. The hon. Gentleman has been points—[Interruption.] If the hon. Member for Dudley extremely rude in this debate, and I have taken two North (Ian Austin) wants to intervene, he is welcome interventions, so I am certainly not going to let him to do so, but he should not chunter from a sedentary intervene. If he gets some manners, I might think about position. it on a future occasion. It was a tough choice, but Ministers, to their credit, Mr McCann: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? worked together in the interests of the country and came up with something that was as fair and reasonable Greg Mulholland: Of course. as possible. I do not want to have to do this. I do not want to see any reduction in benefits unless absolutely Hon. Members: He will get more time. necessary, but we need to remember that this is temporary. This is a temporary measure which can and will be Mr McCann: That is always a danger. reversed as and when the economy improves. Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that, since the The one thing I would say to my right hon. Friend the coalition’s election in 2010, the Government have increased Secretary of State is that we must get the language borrowing by £212 billion more than they said they right. Talk of trying to divide those who work from would? those who do not has been unhelpful. On worklessness, as a former member of the Work and Pensions Committee in the last Parliament, I can tell the House that there Greg Mulholland: The hon. Gentleman is obviously was an appalling benefits trap under that Government, not listening. I have said that it has been made clear that but they did not have the courage to address it. All getting rid of that borrowing will take longer and be members of the Committee said that again and again, more challenging. However, let us also be clear that if and this Government are doing something about it. It is Labour were in government, we would be like Greece. not easy and will not be done overnight, but the universal [Interruption.] Labour Members cannot apologise and credit will ensure that people have a safety net and that they shout people down when things that are true are work pays. That is why it is being introduced, and said. The reality is that difficult discussions had to be today’s changes also need to be seen in that context. made when we found out last autumn that the situation It was a Liberal who brought in the welfare state, and was more difficult and that further cuts would have to that is one of our proudest achievements. The principles be made over a longer period. That would be the reality in the Beveridge report were for a safety net to assist whoever was in government. those who cannot work for whatever reason. If those principles were being breached today, I would not support Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): Does the hon. the Bill, but they are not. Indeed, the level of benefits Gentleman agree that this is about choices? Certain that we have will increase—admittedly not as much as choices have to be made in what everybody accepts are we would like—and I hope that in the future we will very difficult circumstances. Nobody likes doing what review the situation. This is a tough choice, but it is one we have to do today, but it is a job that we have to do if that I am prepared to make. we are to sort this economy out. 5.39 pm Greg Mulholland: It is indeed about choices, and two Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): I do not have time to do parties are having to make those choices while the justice to the appalling, grinding impact of this miserable Labour party refuses to make any choices. Labour piece of legislation on the 3,500 people I represent who Members are saying nothing about what they would do are seeking work, including a number of people who or even telling us a single cut that they would reverse. until last year used to work for Remploy, when they Ministers from the two parties have sat down and were casually forced out of work by Ministers. I do not developed a reasonable strategy for reducing the welfare have enough time to do justice either to its impact on budget. I remind the House that it costs us more than the 8,500 working families who will lose out as a result £220 billion a year—more than we spend on health, of the Bill, or the 40% of children across Greater education and defence combined. Labour Members Manchester who already go to school hungry. There conveniently forget that they went into the last election was not one single reference to them in the autumn with a commitment to reduce that. statement, and we have heard very little about them At the same time, the Liberal Democrats were clear from Government Members today. that there were red lines that we would not cross. We It is bad enough that, as food banks spring up across clearly said that we would not accept getting rid of the country, the impact of the Bill will be felt by the housing benefit for the under-25s; penalising people children I represent. It is worse that the Government who have more children; a freeze on benefits; a reduction believe it is appropriate to label them and their families in benefits; or £10 billion in cuts. What we have now is a as shirkers and scroungers—to play the politics of division much smaller reduction in the budget, but one that is while at the same time failing to explain how jobseeker’s still significant and necessary.The solution is that everybody allowance claimants gaining 72p per week and millionaires on benefits, apart, crucially, from those most vulnerable gaining more than £2,000 per week could possibly be groups, as it is welcome that DLA, attendance allowance, fair in anyone’s book. 249 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 250

[Lisa Nandy] pay, the fewer people there are spending in local economies. In an area such as mine, where there is a high proportion In the past few days, it has become absolutely clear of small businesses that employ many people from the that the case for the Bill is based on a series of what I local area, that is devastating. can only politely describe as false premises: that it is on The Bill fails every test. It is not fair. It will not work. the side of people in work, when, as the Resolution It will have appalling consequences for the very poorest Foundation pointed out, two-thirds of the people who in society, whether they are in or out of work. All of us, will be hit are in work; and that there is a culture of every single one of us, in this Chamber has a minimum worklessness, which the Joseph Rowntree Foundation household income of more than £65,000. Many of us, roundly disproved in its recent research. particularly those sitting on the Government Front Bench, have a minimum household income of much, Ian Mearns: One of the things that stuns me about much more. For any of us to vote for the Bill today the debate is the fact that 57% of children living in would be simply shameful, but what is more shameful is poverty actually have one parent who is in work. It is that, as part of the debate, some of us have managed to dreadful that Government Members discount that fact. demonise the very people who most need and deserve support from their Government. Lisa Nandy: I could not agree more with my hon. Friend. That brings me on to the third false premise 5.44 pm that the Bill is based on: that there are two distinct Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): Thank you for groups, the working poor and the non-working poor, calling me to speak in this important debate, Mr Deputy who can somehow be separated out and divided when, Speaker. I have been here since the start and have heard as we know and as the research proves, most of the a lot of rhetoric, particularly from Opposition Members. people we are talking about are moving in and out of For me, this Bill and this debate are about striking a work at an alarming rate. Many of the people I represent balance between the state providing a safety net for work part-time on zero-hours contracts. They are agency those who need that support and not putting the burden workers and they are in insecure employment. of any changes on to those least able to react to reductions in income, and taking into account the hard-pressed Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): Is my hon. taxpayer. Friend aware that in inner-London constituencies such I fully support the decision to retain the uprating of as mine, the housing benefit cap affects people in work long-term disability benefits at the rate of inflation, as and out of work, and that working families are being I support the triple-lock guarantee for the basic state forced out of private rented accommodation? They pension. Those benefits are paid to groups that in cannot afford the rent anymore, because the cap has general would find it impossible to increase their income, been imposed and does not meet their needs. This is an and it is right and proper that we fully protect them. attack on the poorest people in the most vulnerable That brings me to the people who will be mainly affected parts of the country. by the Bill. They broadly represent two groups in our community: those on out-of-work benefits and those Lisa Nandy: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for receiving benefits in work. helping me to illustrate that point. I shall take the former first. No doubt, it is a terribly difficult decision to limit the increase to 1%, but, that We have heard the myth, repeated over and over said, unemployment benefits, by definition, should be a again today, that somehow the welfare bill is too high short-term safety net. The Government and Parliament when, as my right hon. Friend the Member for South should do all they can to get people back into work as Shields (David Miliband) said, there is a big difference quickly as possible. I know from my constituency that between attacking the evil of unemployment and attacking things are starting to work in that regard, and I am the unemployed. As the Child Poverty Action Group delighted now to see more bespoke help through Jobcentre points out, in 1979 unemployment benefit was 22% of Plus and the Work programme, and measures such as average earnings; today, it is just 15%. It has fallen the enterprise allowance, the work experience programme, sharply over that period. the YouthContract and the push on apprenticeships are We have also heard the myth over and over again that all starting to make a difference. Couple that with the we can bring down the welfare bill by cutting benefits to universal credit, and 3.1 million people will benefit from the poorest. We know that that is not true, as does the increased support for getting into work. That will make Office for Budget Responsibility, which has forecast an a huge difference. extra £6 billion of welfare costs as unemployment tragically I turn to those affected who are in work. Again, in an continues to rise in my constituency and across the ideal world it would be fantastic to uprate working country. There are two solutions that the Government benefits in line with inflation, but in the world of need to take seriously urgently. If the Secretary of State inevitable reality we all know that that is unsustainable. would stop laughing and listen for just one moment, I The creation of the tax credit system unleashed a would like to ask him to get serious about job creation. bureaucratic leviathan on the country, and billions have That is not just about wage subsidies, but looking at now been spent on bureaucracy: £4 billion has been how we use our public procurement power to ensure written off in errors and bad debts already and, as we that we get young people into apprenticeships, and heard today, another £4 million is likely to go the same people into work and decent training opportunities. way. It is far simpler to put people in a position where Secondly, I ask the Secretary of State to take seriously they pay less income tax, and I am glad and proud that the impact of low pay on local economies. A number of the Government are doing that. Personally, I would like hon. Members have raised this point. The more people to see that extended, so that we can continue to move there are taking cuts to their tax credits and take-home away from that bureaucracy. 251 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 252

The deficit, which is the most important issue facing 5.50 pm the country, has to be dealt with in a way that is fair to Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and the taxpayer. There is no doubt that difficult decisions Lesmahagow) (Lab): Let me start by doing my hon. have to be made to deal with it, and I am mindful that Friend the Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and many people’s wages have been frozen, uprated at below Kirkintilloch East (Gregg McClymont) a favour and inflation or even cut. We need to acknowledge that the correcting the hon. Member for Leeds North West taxpayer cannot bear the burden indefinitely. (Greg Mulholland). It was a Labour Government who introduced the welfare state, not a Liberal Government—I Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): My hon. Friend am damn sure there was not a Liberal Government is right to say that taxpayers cannot continue to bear after the war. the burden. Does he agree that the 258% increase in tax I heard the Secretary of State defending the Bill on credit spend between 2003 and 2010 was unsustainable? Radio 5 Live this morning. He made two important comments. The first was that the Government had Mr Jones: I thank my hon. Friend for his comment. underestimated the size and scale of the economic He is absolutely right that we are in a difficult position problems the country faces; the second was that the that we can no longer sustain. proposal to cap benefits was based on fairness. The two That brings me on to another point. This afternoon, I issues are, of course, inextricably linked, but what he have observed a certain mood among the Opposition. failed to mention was his Government’s contribution to Far from being pragmatic, they have been completely the size and scale of the economic problems we face. ideological. What puzzles me is that before the last Without that part of the story it is difficult—indeed general election Labour pledged to cut spending roughly impossible—to put into context the proposal before us, in line with the coalition’s current rate of deficit reduction, nor is it possible to understand the rationale that the but since then they have opposed virtually all the cuts, Government are setting out. including £80 billion of savings proposed to welfare. The economy is not in good shape, but if the Prime The question for the Opposition, therefore, is: if all Minister was too weak to move the Secretary of State those changes are unacceptable, what do you propose to from office in the last Cabinet reshuffle, he is certainly do? Do you want to cut the NHS? Do you want to make not going to move his Bullingdon club buddy. That is a more cuts to policing? Do you want to cut local government? pity, because it is the Chancellor’s quick-fix agenda of Do you want to cut education? raising taxes and cutting spending too far and too fast that has spectacularly backfired on our economy. Because Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. I do not the benefits bill is going up while tax revenues are down, want to do any of those things. Will the hon. Gentleman borrowing continues to rise. [Interruption.] The Secretary please use the third person? of State should listen to this; he might learn something. We hear a lot about the great work that the Government Mr Jones: I apologise, Mr Deputy Speaker. I was have done to reduce the structural deficit, but very referring to Opposition Members, whose other options rarely do we hear anything about the debt. A perfunctory might be to put 13p on a litre of fuel, increase council look at the numbers tells us why. The Government claim tax, impose other tax rises or—as has always been the they have clipped the structural deficit by £37.5 billion, case—give the country more debt. but they have also increased borrowing by £212 billion since they were elected. It seems neither appropriate, reasonable nor sane to claim that we have reduced the Nick de Bois: Does my hon. Friend agree that it is household budget— to use the litmus test of Mrs Thatcher, time for the Opposition to set out their full deficit the great saviour of the Conservative party—while reduction plan, as specified by Labour’s previous simultaneously borrowing more than five times as much Chancellor? as we claim to have saved. Like so many other claims that the coalition parties make, it is spurious. Their Mr Jones: I thank my hon. Friend for his comments economic competence is indeed questionable. because they bring me neatly on to my next point. I All this is important because if we had steered a suspect that today we will hear nothing from those on different and more sensible course, the economic condition the Opposition Front Bench about what they will do. of our country would be immeasurably better. That As with the rest of the measures that they have opposed, takes us back to the Bill. Who is being asked to pay as a the Opposition will not reverse the measures put forward result of the Government’s mishandling of the economy? today, even if this country should have the misfortune We all agree that it would be foolish to disagree or take of having another Labour Government. I look forward sides on arithmetic, but it appears that the Government to, I hope, receiving answers from those on the Opposition wish to do so. May I remind hon. Members that jobseeker’s Front Bench, but I fear that the hon. Member for allowance is £71 a week? Under the proposal in this Bill, Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) will be it will increase by 71p this year. It might interest the completely silent on that point. House to know that since this Government took office, To conclude, I will go through the Lobby this evening the cost of the average weekly shopping basket has risen mindful of the fact that I am making an extremely by 17%. Most importantly for the poorest people in our important and difficult decision for many of my country, figures from the Department for Environment, constituents. In the absence of a credible plan being put Food and Rural Affairs show that falling income and forward by any other party in this House—that is rising food prices reduce food affordability by 20%. For particularly true of the alternative being put forward the record—I draw this to the Secretary of State’s this evening—I will be backing the Bill’s Second Reading attention—the proliferation of food banks across the and supporting the Government. UK is not a cause for celebration. 253 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 254

[Mr Michael McCann] Mr Jackson: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. In retrospect, I think that it was a tragedy to import Increases in prices have the ability, or at least the thousands of low-wage, low-skilled people from eastern potential, to be absorbed by a working household’s Europe while we parked our own indigenous young budget. Although Labour Members do not deny that people who needed skills and training and who needed times are tough for everybody under the current economic educators and businesses to put their the faith and trust circumstances, to suggest that there is a level playing in them. I have nothing against the people who wanted field between someone earning even the minimum to come to this country to make a better life for themselves wage and someone receiving £71 a week in benefits is and their families, but at what cost did? Even the an utter fallacy. This is not about fairness; otherwise, Scottish Trades Union Congress says the same thing. 8,000 millionaires would not be getting a tax cut of Some of the arguments being used are disingenuous £107,000 a year. The Secretary of State’s halo has fallen because they do not fully understand the context. We and crashed to the floor, and the Bill is sadly another have uprated benefits by 5.2%, we have brought in example of the true character of Conservative politics. apprenticeships, and we are trying to deal with these In difficult times, they see nothing wrong in helping the issues through the Work programme. I am on the Public rich at the expense of the country’s poorest people. Accounts Committee and I know that the programme is not perfect. We are at the beginning of a process and there are some difficulties with appeals, with people’s 5.54 pm understanding of the system, and with advocacy. I Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): I do not understand that. However, my blue-collar constituents criticise Labour Members for their aspirations. There is do not understand how it can be right, when their nothing ignoble in the positions that they are taking; I average salary is about £24,000, for a party that aspires just happen to believe that they are wrong. They know to government to say that it will not countenance a that the picture of despair and hopelessness that my benefit cap of £26,000. My constituency has some of right hon. Friend the Secretary of State saw in Easterhouse the poorest super-output areas and wards in the eastern in 2002 was the same picture that the right hon. Member region, and my constituents are decent, salt-of-the-earth for Birkenhead (Mr Field) saw in 1997, when there was people who want to work. They are not shirkers. an historic opportunity for the then Labour Government to tackle welfare dependency and rebalance work and Mr MacNeil rose— welfare. Unfortunately, they did not take that action. People out there are decent; they care and their Mr Jackson: I will not give way to the hon. Gentleman, attitude is, “There but for the grace of God go I.” They even though he is a terribly charming fellow. do not want to stigmatise people, and nor do Government Those people in my constituency want to work, but Members. I accept that there has been some rhetoric on they want the Government to give them a positive both sides of the House, but people do care. They also message about the future. It is cruel to park people and care about the dependency culture, and about fairness. to forget them. In all honesty, they feel that the previous Labour Government tested their patience on this issue. James Wharton (Stockton South) (Con): I want to It is disingenuous to talk about cruelty. I think that it back up what my hon. Friend is saying. When I went was cruel to park 1,000 of my constituents on invalidity around my constituency at the last election, the issue or incapacity benefit for more than 10 years without the of making work pay came up time and again, and the opportunity—[Interruption.] I should remind Labour communities in which it came up were the poorest Members that this was in 2010. Those people were ones. They had seen the damage that long-term welfare given no opportunity to inform anyone of their needs. dependency could do to a community. The reason that People suffering from depression or other mental health my hon. Friend and I welcome the reforms is that the problems, and people with physical afflictions, were Government are finally tackling this long-term problem, simply parked and forgotten. I am not saying that the which hits the poorest in our country the hardest. Labour Government did that because they were cruel or heartless; they did it because they were incompetent. Mr Jackson: That was eloquently put by my hon. We are taking the tough decisions that will make work Friend, who is even younger and better looking than the pay, through the Work programme and through hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil). apprenticeships that will tackle youth unemployment, We take a pinch of salt for a party that has no coherent which the previous Government doubled. Work is the fiscal alternative. Frankly, “Tough on Coco Pops and No. 1 determinant in taking people out of poverty and tough on the causes of Coco Pops” does not make a breaking the cycle of children seeing their parents fiscal policy. The 10p tax rate was a debacle, while unemployed, living in a half-life of hopelessness and re-spending over and over again bankers’ bonuses and poverty and lacking ambition. That has been demonstrated pensions credit does not cut the mustard. across the world. Let me give some free advice to Labour Members. We did the same as them in 1998 and 1999 when we said Christopher Pincher: My hon. Friend is quite right to that the downturn was made in Downing street, but it say that work provides the best way out of poverty. did not help us because we were not seen as credible. I Does he agree that the 5.2 million people who were respectfully invite Labour Members, if they are going to trapped in dependency when the economy was growing vote against Second Reading, to say what they would in the boom years under Labour are evidence of the cut and what they would spend as an alternative. The previous Government’s structural failure to deal with Bill will save the best part of £2 billion. Politics is about poverty? choices, as Aneurin Bevan said 50-odd years ago, and 255 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 256 he was right. It is disingenuous to keep repeating the issue As he went on to say, they are of tax cuts to millionaires, when we have taken millions “not exactly the ‘shirkers’ and ‘scroungers’ of some Tory rhetoric of people out of tax and cut the taxes of many low-paid about benefits.” working people. This Bill is about giving a message—that The Government are trying to play politics with the work pays and that it is better than welfare. We should welfare state, but their claims are clearly unravelling. give people the life they need and deserve—a life of It is no wonder that the Government have run out of work and a better future. speakers—and come the next general election, some Government Members will deeply regret the speeches Several hon. Members rose— that they have made today. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. Will The Citizens Advice Bureau works with these people everyone resume their seats? We can see that no Government week in, week out, giving them advice, and it works with Members wish to contribute, so if everyone shows the us as well, certainly in my part of the world. According time discipline of remaining within three minutes, all to the brief that it sent to us: those who wish to speak will be able to contribute to the “A couple with two children earning £26,000 a year and paying debate. Let us have some team play. a fairly modest rent of £130 a week… will experience a net loss of £1.85 a week from next April, £6.52 the following April and 6.1 pm £11.20 in April 2015. A possible rise in the personal tax allowance to £10,000 in perhaps April 2014 would only give them £0.75 a Mr Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab): First, I am week to offset the loss of £6.52.” sorry to see that the hon. Member for Brent Central (Sarah Teather) is no longer in her place, as she made a Mr MacNeil: Will the right hon. Gentleman give very good speech. She mentioned one word that applies way? to much of the debate when she spoke about the use of “language”, while another important word, spoken about Mr Barron: No, I will not. Other Members wish to by the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones), who is speak. now leaving, is “ideology”. Language and ideology have As was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member surrounded this debate for many years. for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg), this is the first In the last 12 months, we have noticed the language time that we have sat here and not had one debate about used by the coalition to get us to where we are today. one annual uprating of benefits. That is because this Twelve months ago last January, the Deputy Prime uprating is so unpopular. It has been driven by a nasty Minister was talking about “alarm clock Britain”, and party, and by a nasty piece of legislation which I will then we had talk about people “behind the curtains”. oppose. On 8 October last year on the “Today” programme, the Chancellor of the Exchequer said it was “unfair that people listening to this programme going out to work 6.5 pm see the neighbour next door with the blinds down because they Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): I am are on benefits”. sorry that we are so pressed for time, because these are My blinds used to be down because I was on night shift, issues of real public interest, and I think that they and for many people the blinds and curtains are closed deserve more scrutiny than we are able to give them this in the morning because they are working hard throughout evening. the night, seven of 24 hours every day to keep industry running. Many people will resent what has been said. I believe that the 1% cap on the uprating of working-age benefits is an inherently regressive measure. It will make This is not the first time that such language has been people on low incomes even poorer, will increase used. Andrew Rawnsley, a political columnist for whom deprivation, and will widen the gap between the haves I have a lot of time, got it right in an article in The and the have-nots in our communities. It will particularly Observer this Sunday, when he said that in view of the hit parents in low-paid or part-time work who are true intent of the author of the Bill—I assume he meant already struggling to make ends meet because of the the Chancellor of the Exchequer—it should be called wider economic climate. “the Welfare (Make Labour Look Like the Party for Skiving Fat Slobs) bill”. I shall oppose the Bill’s Second Reading. Labour’s It is a pity that the hon. Member for Cannock Chase amendment proposes that the House should decline it a (Mr Burley) is not in his place as that description fits Second Reading, and posits a guaranteed job offer for well with his anonymous quotes about people being at those who have been out of work for a long time. On home because that is what they want to do and because the basis that that is a laudable aim, I am prepared to they do not want to go out to work. That is not my support it, albeit with a caveat. I have listened carefully experience in life, and I have been a Member of this to the debate, but I have heard no details of how such House a long time. I started work as one of six children a proposal could be put into effect in any realistic way. I in a coalmining community. I lived in that community would not want to endorse any particular scheme until for most of my life, and I can say that the people I know I had seen whether it was workable and fundable in and have represented for years are not like the caricatures practice. that have been portrayed in this debate for far too long. The Bill will hit those who are working, especially Andrew Rawnsley went on in his article to say the those who are supporting and bringing up children, real truth: especially hard. Many people in lower-paid private sector “The majority of those who are going to lose—about 60%—are jobs have seen their hours cut recently, and many who people in work, among them 3.7 million people on child tax credit are working part-time want to work full-time but cannot and 2.5 million on working tax credit…those hit will include find full-time jobs or pick up extra hours. Meanwhile, primary school teachers, nurses and army officers”. they are struggling to juggle work with child care. 257 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 258

[Dr Eilidh Whiteford] by more than 40%. That is having a disproportionate impact on very poor people, compared to people like us. As others have said, notably the hon. Member for A 1% increase in an MP’s salary would give us an extra Brent Central (Sarah Teather), we all need to take £600 a year. The increase of 71p or 72p for a jobseeker does responsibility for the way in which we portray people who not compare. There is a quantitative, material difference. are unemployed. We need to recognise that those who The cap means that there would be a 4% cumulative are jobless should not necessarily be blamed for their cut in support to low and middle income families, which joblessness, and that the rises and falls in unemployment will increase material deprivation. The Government are caused by wider economic factors more than by have got their priorities all wrong. Asking low and individuals’ aspirations. We also need to recognise that middle income families to bear the brunt of cuts while the greater part of the savings made here will be taken insulating the very richest is the wrong choice to make, from people who are working, often in very physically and I look forward to the day when in Scotland we can demanding and fairly unrewarding jobs. make these decisions for ourselves. Like the right hon. Member for Rother Valley (Mr Barron), I was struck by the comments of the Citizens 6.11 pm Advice Bureau on the impact assessment. We had seen no impact assessment until this afternoon, and we have Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): The Chancellor’s still seen no equality impact assessment. According to statement last autumn was an admission that the the CAB’s calculations, a family consisting of two full-time Government were failing in their economic policy. They workers earning the minimum wage with two children, had failed on their two fiscal targets and they now say living in private rented accommodation, will be losing that they will need two Parliaments to meet those £12 a week by 2015. Disabled lone parents will suffer, as targets. The Chancellor needs to divert attention from will families with a single earner. What those examples his economic policy and is doing so by the crudest of mask, however, is the disproportionate impact of the politics. The Bill is a wedge between one party and rising cost of living on households with very low incomes. another for electoral advantage. It hits the low paid, the The worst of the cold winter weather is probably still unemployed, of whom there are 2.5 million, and the ahead of us, but the rises in domestic fuel bills will cause under-employed—many, many people on low wages, a very nasty hangover in the spring. decent, hard-working people, including nurses, primary school teachers and armed forces personnel—and to Christopher Pincher: Will the hon. Lady give way? play politics with them through the Bill is wrong. Part-time workers need help and support, yes, and Dr Whiteford: I will give way briefly. I would support a reform that helps them, but to penalise them at this time is completely and utterly wrong. The Christopher Pincher: The hon. Lady talks of the Chancellor is not known for his consistency. In his impact on low-income families. Is she aware that, as a autumn statement in 2011 he said: result of the Chancellor’s autumn statement last year, “I also want to protect...those who, through no fault of their some 1,400 people in her constituency are being taken own, have lost jobs and are trying to find work”.—[Official out of tax, and 30,000-odd are better off in tax? Report, 29 November 2011; Vol. 536, c. 802.] Those are the very people who, 12 months later, he is Dr Whiteford: I am delighted to be able to respond going to hit hardest. to that point. What has been shown by the monitoring I can understand some of those on the Conservative of the Citizens Advice Bureau and the Institute for Benches thinking that the wedge is very clever, but I Fiscal Studies, and by the Government’s own impact cannot understand the Liberal Democrats supporting assessment—which we received very belatedly—is that it. There are not many of them— the combination of the tax and benefit changes will hit the lowest deciles of the income spectrum much harder John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD) rose— than the middle and upper deciles. The lowest five deciles are hit hardest, and within that the lowest three Albert Owen: I will not take an intervention as the are hit worst of all. Many of those are hard-working hon. Gentleman has not been here throughout and people and they deserve more. We have heard much there are not many of his colleagues here today. criticism of the tax credit system this afternoon, but the My constituency suffered from high unemployment Government have failed to address the reason why we in the 1930s, the 1980s and the 1990s—mass unemployment need a tax system when people who are working full-time in the 1930s. My constituency has a strong Liberal in demanding jobs cannot afford to bring up their tradition. Megan Lloyd-George, one of my predecessors, children without depending on extra support from the refused promotion in the coalition Government because state. That is the underlying issue, and until we have she wanted to stand up for the unemployed, the under- heard how the Government plan to address poverty for employed and the low paid, and she wanted to support working people, we should not even be talking about a the welfare state. Breaking the link today between the below-inflation rise in benefits. increase and inflation is in many ways a treacherous act The other issue that should be taken into account, for a Liberal. which has been raised by other Members, is that food prices are rising. That is to do with the bad harvest that John Hemming rose— we have had here due to the very wet summer but, more importantly at a global level, bad harvests in the US Albert Owen: I will not give way to the hon. Gentleman and Russia have put the prices of basic commodities for the reasons that I gave and the limitations. Had he way up. In the past year potatoes, probably the great been here at the beginning, he would have heard many staple of our own food economy, have gone up in price of the arguments. 259 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 260

The Liberal Democrats have a lack of conviction, but the context of the £3.4 billion give-away to the very they can make up for that. I know that some honourable richest in society. On top of that, we all know that there ones will, and will vote for the amendment tonight and is only one sure way of getting the deficit down in the against Second Reading, because the Bill is completely long term: getting the economy growing again and wrong. There was no need for a Bill. The change could getting people back into work. have been made as it has been in the past, but it was The real victims of today’s measure are, of course, chosen for political theatre. After losing Corby, the children—blameless children who will feel the impact of Government in desperation went to Crosby, and Crosby squeezed budgets. Many already know what it is like to introduced the wedge. The crudest of Australian politics see their parents fall back on food banks to keep them has been imported to the United Kingdom. fed. Children are primarily the responsibility of those Too many of my constituents—decent, honest, hard- who bring them into the world, their parents, but we working people—will see their benefits cut if the Bill understand that society, too, has a responsibility towards goes through tonight. I appeal to the Liberal Democrats them. After all, the young are our future. Society needs and those decent Conservatives who genuinely care to nurture that future, invest in it and give it the best about the underemployed, the unemployed and the low possible chance of delivering the prosperity we all need. paid to join us by voting for the amendment and against I will draw my remarks to a conclusion with one a Second Reading and standing up—I make no apologies further point. The Government think that they are for this—for the decent, honest, hard-working people, clever in the way they are shaping their savings profile. the low-paid, the unemployed and the underemployed, They think that they will escape the consequences of who are under attack from this Government measure. what they are doing because the jobless, the low-paid and the young vote in lower numbers than we all wish to 6.15 pm see. The Government should think again, because that Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): will not necessarily prove to be the case in 2015. The Bill represents an unprecedented break with the principles underpinning the social contract that has 6.19 pm characterised British society in the post-war period. No Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): Hardly a week goes other Government—not even the Thatcher Government— by without an individual or couple coming to my surgery, have broken with the uprating principle to the degree rather downcast, and saying something like, “Youknow, that this Government have done so, and for very good I’m very happy that we’re cracking down on scroungers, reasons, because the loss of income incurred over time because it needs to be sorted out.” Then they pause and merely stores up problems for the future. say, “But look what’s happened to me.” They might Earlier today my right hon. Friend the Member for have lost their job at Lloyds TSB, Tata or Kimberly-Clark. South Shields (David Miliband) outlined the case for They will say, “I’m out of work for the first time, so am genuine welfare reform, on the basis that economic and I really supposed to work for such little money?” They demographic changes make such reform vital. I argue might have the threat of the bedroom tax to pay and that at the heart of the debate is the need to look again might be worried about where they will find the money. at how we get people back into work. Labour’s job That demonstrates that in the same individuals can be guarantee for the young and the long-term unemployed the rhetoric and the reality. They can swallow the rhetoric would be a good start on the road to proper, meaningful of the right-wing press—some of which some Government welfare reform, whereas the Government’s proposals, as Members, to their shame, have reiterated this afternoon— laid out in the Bill, do not represent reform. Rather, while understanding when the reality hits what the they represent an old-fashioned attack on the victims of reality is. the Government’s double-dip recession: the low-paid The fact is that 60% of those affected by the cut in and their children. support that will take place if the Bill is voted through The attack on the jobless and the low-paid is simple are people in work. As the Children’s Society has to explain. In the context of the welfare changes already demonstrated, nearly 12 million adults with children announced, which will take £18 billion out of the welfare and 11.5 million children will be affected by the proposal. budget for the working-age population, the 1% freeze Parents affected include 300,000 nurses, 150,000 primary represents an appalling but audacious decision on the school teachers and 40,000 armed services personnel. part of the Con-Dem coalition to force those on the The Bill and the rhetoric used by some on the lowest incomes to pay the cost of the Government’s Government Benches—to their credit, not by all—is failure to inject demand into the economy, with borrowing designed to break the cross-party consensus that has going up and austerity measures being extended well existed since the Beveridge report. That consensus said beyond 2015. While £3.4 billion is given away as a tax that we were a society that looked after people in their cut to millionaires, the very lowest paid in society are hour of need and supported people through the bad being asked to pay for the Government’s economic times; that we were one nation who supported each failures. Even worse, it is those in work who will bear other. It is not surprising, therefore, that some in the the greatest impact of the freeze inscribed in the Bill. party of Beveridge are deeply unhappy at the tone and According to the IFS, as we have heard many times today, substance of the debate. I pay tribute to the contributions 68% of those affected by the decision will be in work. made by the hon. Members for Bradford East (Mr Ward) Yesterday we heard the Deputy Prime Minister—a and for Brent Central (Sarah Teather). Liberal MP—excuse his support for what is clearly an Barnardo’s has pointed to the impact that the Bill will unfair and vicious attack on those who are least able to have on children: pay the price for economic incompetence by claiming “This policy will punish children the most by trapping them in that there is no alternative. The truth is that these poverty and impacting on their lives, leading to poor health, poor savings, which amount to £3.7 billion, must be seen in qualifications and unemployment.” 261 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 262

[Nic Dakin] reduce economic output by up to £40 billion. Not only are they heartless; they are incompetent too. The way to That is the risk we take if we go ahead. get down the benefits bill is to get people into decently Finally, the policy is not only unfair but economically paid work. By already having a double-dip recession inept. As many have pointed out, people on the lowest and heading for a triple dip, the Government have incomes spend their money in local economies, and the demonstrated that we cannot cut our way out of a last thing that we need is a further contraction in recession—we have to grow our way out. Punishing the demand in local economies. We need a virtuous circle of poor and bringing them to desperation will not grow a one-nation United Kingdom, which will be created if the economy; it will simply make it worse. we deliver the compulsory jobs guarantee proposed in The Government boast that they are creating jobs the Labour amendment. I will be proud to be supporting but fail to tell us how many of those jobs are unpaid, the 7,700 people on tax credits in my constituency by because unbelievably they are including unpaid workfare voting against what my right hon. Friend the Member placements in the figure for jobs created. They are silent for South Shields (David Miliband) rightly dubbed on the number of those jobs that are under 16 hours a “this rancid Bill”. week, and they do not tell us how many of these so-called new jobs are really public sector jobs that are 6.22 pm simply being transferred to the private sector. Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): How can it be that Yes, the Government need to get a grip on the economy, we are the seventh richest nation in the world but our but not by driving the disabled to suicide and the poor children are getting rickets? How is it possible that in to despair. They need to take action to grow the economy, our rich nation 13 million people live below the poverty not starve the poor. This Bill is a disgrace and I will be line—or that 200,000 people had to go to food banks proud to vote against it and stand up for my constituents, last year, or that the poor have to make a choice both in work and out, who need a system that will between heating and eating, or that children are going support them and their families in good times and bad. to school hungry? The reason is that this rotten, heartless Government 6.26 pm have given a tax cut to millionaires but with this Bill make the poor suffer even more. They have the cheek to Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): I object to the Government’s label the 2.5 million people who are desperate for work proposals to limit to 1% for the next three years any rise as “shirkers”. How dare they? in income-maintenance benefits to low-income households, over 68% of which go to households in work, not Do the Government want to tell Allan, who was households out of work. It is grossly unfair, hits the working for an agency that gradually reduced his hours poorest hardest and will cause genuine hardship; it to the point where he lost his home—he is now sofa- makes no economic sense whatsoever. Making real-terms surfing—that he is a shirker? What about Nicola, who cuts to low-income families will have a disastrous effect lost her tax credits while she was on maternity leave, or on local economies. People on low incomes and families 59-year-old Patricia who, having worked all her life, has who are struggling to make ends meet immediately, become unemployed due to an injury and already cannot through necessity, spend what money they have and any heat her house? What about Stephen, who has just got increase they receive on basic essentials, putting that custody of his three boys aged under seven and has had money back into the local economy. They have no to give up his job as a chef because he could not get care choice about that. Low-income families have already for the children at night? What about Peter, who was been disproportionately badly hit because of rising about to set up home with his girlfriend until he lost his food and fuel prices. Implementing these real-terms job three weeks before Christmas? cuts will suck money out of the local economy, leading Government Members do not have a clue. What to more difficulties for local businesses, more shops on would they like to say to my neighbour Leah, a single our high streets closing, and more job losses. This will mum of two working 16 hours a week on the minimum particularly affect economically depressed areas where wage? She uses her £101 a week wages to pay her rent, it is already hard to find another job, and more utilities, council tax and other household bills. She uses people unemployed means more people needing to claim her tax credits to buy food, clothes, school dinners and benefits. her £18-a-week bus fares. What will she cut out when her money will not cover her basics? Should she beg for Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ food at a food bank, stop her children from going Co-op): My hon. Friend makes an important point swimming, stop heating the house or do what so many about jobs. The benefits bill is rising because of this other parents have to do at the moment—skip meals Government’s failure on the economy and jobs. Does just so that she can feed the children? she agree that the Welsh Labour Government are showing Sixty-eight per cent. of the people hit by this Bill are, the way with their Jobs Growth Wales fund, which is like Leah, in work. They are nurses, soldiers, shop workers, already ahead of target, in stark contrast to the failure cleaners, teachers, admin workers and care workers. of the Work programme, which has seen only two in Many are already struggling to make ends meet, and 100 people put into work? this will put them over the edge. What about the others who are affected—carers and the disabled, and people Nia Griffith: Indeed. What the Welsh Government desperate for work? Government Members should be are doing is absolute proof that we mean business in ashamed of themselves. our motion and in saying that we need to create This policy is also going to harm the economy. The opportunities and make sure that people get back to IMF has already warned the Government that their work. The great thing about the Welsh Government’s annual cut of £24 billion to benefits and tax credits will programme is that they have been targeting private 263 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 264 sector jobs having previously concentrated on public sector misdirection. They are telling some of our people, “We jobs. That is making a huge difference to the people are giving you the confection of increased personal who are able to take part. allowances and taking you out of taxation,” and, “We The Bill will suck more money out of the economy. are going to hit the spongers and confiscate from them,” For example, House of Commons Library figures show but that is all designed to make sure that people do not that over the next three years the Government’s economic realise that they will be hit with stealth cuts and stealth decisions will mean cuts in welfare benefits taking some taxes. That is the plan and purpose of this Government. £3.6 billion out of Wales. If we also add in the £2.4 billion The theatre surrounding the Bill is part of that, which is in extra VAT that people will be paying, that amounts why I am happy to oppose it. I am particularly glad that to a massive £7 billion coming out of the Welsh economy the official Opposition will also oppose its Second during this Government’s term of office. That is no way Reading, having many times found themselves boxed in to foster economic growth. by the fear of what the Daily Mail might say about some of this Government’s other measures. It is a complete myth that people receive massive, generous amounts. Comparisons with actual living costs The fact is that this Bill will not just hit the benefits of have consistently shown that what people receive is not those people who are out of work through no fault of generous to start with, but over the years there has at their own; it will also hit the circumstances and living least been a recognition by Governments of all colours standards of families who are working, struggling to that allowances should be regularly upgraded to reflect work and who hope that they will still work, but do not inflation. As my right hon. Friend the Member for know whether they will able to, as a result of this Bill. Rother Valley (Mr Barron) said, a decision to limit That is why it is so unfair. increases in the rate of income-maintenance benefits to The Bill is also unnecessary. I am not in denial about below inflation for a sustained period is historically the scale of the deficit or any of the other hard choices unprecedented. At a time when benefit allowances are that have to be made, but the idea that this is the down as a percentage of full-time earnings and prices of measure that is needed now to deal with the deficit, essential items are rising, this will lead to increased and that it is absolutely necessary or in any way fair, is hardship and increased child poverty. House of Commons completely wrong. Nor do I believe the delusion accepted Library research shows that, as a result of these proposals, by the hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg the real value of benefits and their value as a percentage Mulholland) that this is a temporary measure. The of average full-time earnings will fall. Chancellor, who has inspired this Bill, has already said Much has been made by the Lib Dems of the raising that he wants £10 billion-worth of cuts in welfare in the of the personal tax threshold, but in reality this is a next spending review period and he will still look for regressive measure. An analysis by Citizens Advice and those cuts. the Resolution Foundation shows that the impact of It is only today that the Government have produced capping benefits and tax credits will wipe out any gains their impact assessment for a Bill with such major from the increase in the personal tax allowance for implications, even though all sorts of other foundations those on low incomes—precisely the people it is meant and think tanks, such as Citizens Advice, have been to help. able to produce their impact appraisals sooner. The I received a distressing letter recently from a woman Government’s impact assessment tells us: who has been diagnosed with cancer that will require “The legislation is in place for two years after which the extensive surgery and follow-up treatment. She has Secretary of State for Work and Pensions will review the up-rating been alarmed to discover the amount that she is expected of benefits annually in line with statutory requirements. In a to live on as statutory sick pay. She has worked all her similar way Government will consider the up-rating of Tax Credits and Child Benefit at appropriate fiscal events, Budgets, Autumn life and made contributions. She has enough to cope with Statements etc.” without having to worry about money. This Government’s Bill will make matters far worse for people such as her. Just as we were given no notice of this Bill until the To make a real-terms cut to statutory sick pay for one autumn statement, we should be under no illusions that year, never mind three years, is an absolute disgrace. there will not be a further grinding agenda if the Chancellor gets a mandate to get his way in the future. That is why This Bill will not help people on low incomes—in the introduction of the Bill fundamentally changes fact, it will make life extremely difficult for them—and things with regard to the commitments that we have all neither will it help to get the economy going. What we made to the social security system for all the reasons really need is real growth strategy to get the economy given by so many hon. Members. going, and then we can talk about paying back the deficit. I represent a constituency where enduring high unemployment is a chronic problem. For those who are in work, low pay and under-employment are too much 6.30 pm a part of their experience. All those people will be hit. Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): It is pantomime season In a constituency such as mine, the problem is not a and during much of today’s debate we have heard a lot lack of work ethic, but a lack of work. A firm that of caricature, exaggeration and hyperbole, particularly opened recently interviewed 23 people for every job that from Government Members, with the honourable it had. That is not a lack of work ethic. Those people exceptions of the hon. Members for Brent Central who want jobs are being insulted by this Bill. (Sarah Teather) and for Bradford East (Mr Ward). 6.34 pm I have sat throughout the whole debate and listened to insidious arguments in favour of this invidious Bill. Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): The Bill It is a completely unnecessary Bill, a political contrivance. is part of a war on the poor, waged largely by the very The Government are engaged in a classic act of rich, who are deliberately doing all they can to divide 265 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 266

[Caroline Lucas] and riddled with fraud. A poll commissioned by the TUC shows that, on average, people think that 27% of individuals and set communities against each other. It is the welfare budget is claimed fraudulently. The a reckless and dangerous measure that is likely to be Government’s figure is 0.7%. Instead of feeding those massively counter-productive and to destabilise already misconceptions, the Government should be challenging struggling groups in society, pushing them into greater them. Instead of penalising the poor, the Government despair and desperation. should be supporting them. The Bill is not only hugely socially divisive, but is I say again that this is a mean, miserable Bill. I hope likely to be entirely counter-productive, even in the that Members will reject it and I hope that I hear from economic terms that the Government say are driving Labour that it will reverse the Act if it gets into government this set of policies. It will be counter-productive because next time around. as people are pushed into greater desperation, they are more likely to be forced to make greater calls on the 6.39 pm state, for example as those who are struggling to pay Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- rent are finally pushed into homelessness or as those op): A lot of figures have been bandied about, so I will who are struggling with mental disability or mental start with a few. There have been 34 Back-Bench speakers, illness are finally tipped into greater ill health. It will be including 13 from the Government Benches, two of whom counter-productive because, as many hon. Members were critical of the Government; and the Government have said, if we want to get the economy moving again, ran out of speakers an hour before the debate was due the best way to do so is to put money into the pockets of to finish. What message does that send to people who the poorest, because they are the ones who will spend it want to know what the Government’s plans are and in the local economy, not the very rich. what will happen to their benefits? This is a mean and miserable Bill from a mean and We have heard a number of powerful speeches and a miserable Government. I hope that it will be reversed at number of others that I do not think were what people the first opportunity. I apologise if I have missed this, watching the debate would have wanted to hear. There but I would love to hear a firm commitment from have been so many speakers that I cannot list them all, Labour that if it forms the next Government, it will but Opposition Members have been consistent in standing reverse this Act, as it will then be. up for the people whom the Government have consistently I have been asking myself how this wretched Bill has let down. got any currency at all. It is, of course, because of the Ahead of the debate, this was described as a watershed deliberate lies, myths and misinformation that have moment. Perhaps it has turned out to be one, but maybe surrounded it. There is the picture of the shirkers on not in the way that the Government expected. On the benefits who have apparently enjoyed a lavish 20% very day of their coalition relaunch, the former Minister income increase over the past five years. What a neatly with responsibility for children and families, the hon. seductive and simple picture that paints, but what a Member for Brent Central (Sarah Teather), condemned false and unfair one, particularly to the 2,136 jobseeker’s the coalition’s policy on welfare, the Leader of the allowance claimants in my constituency, who come to House of Lords resigned with an admission that he had me on a regular basis, desperately searching for work. criticisms of his coalition partners, and we heard that What does this lavish 20% increase mean in cash the Deputy Prime Minister is apparently not entirely terms? I checked with the House of Commons Library. comfortable with the coalition’s approach to welfare, It means that in 2007, JSA was £59.15 a week and that but as ever he is going to go along with the policy five years later in 2012, it had gone up to just £71 a anyway. On the back of a report showing that the Work week. That is hardly a princely increase. The truth is programme has been worse than doing nothing, we that 20% of very little is still very, very little—but how hear that a senior Minister briefed that the much heralded useful it is to the Government to spin this attack on the universal credit plans are not just in disarray but a poor! No wonder they never say what the 20% actually “disaster waiting to happen”. Far from a Ronseal relaunch, represents in cash terms. the Government have had to reach for the Polyfilla to Similarly, there is the 10% increase in average earnings try to plug the gaping cracks in their own ranks and in for people who are in work. Again, the Government the coalition in general. never say what that percentage means. For people on Let us talk about the Bill. We have been clear that we average earnings, that 10% increase means an increase need to get the overall costs down, but we have heard in their weekly take-home pay of about £11 in each of that there are different ways to do that. There is the way the last five years. That is not enough and I oppose the that the Government propose, which we do not support, public sector pay freezes, but it is still nearly four and a and there is the way that Labour proposes—getting half times more in hard cash terms than the £2.50 annual people into work. Welfare spending is rising to pay for increase for those on JSA. the costs of the Government’s failure on the economy. It is therefore an outrageous and disingenuous attack As we have heard time after time, the Bill will mean a on people who are seeking work to suggest that they are real-terms cut in support for both people in work and getting more than people who are in work when, in cash those looking for work. It will mean a rise of 1%, while terms, they have got more than four times less. As the inflation is set to rise by between 2% and 3.7% over the hon. Member for Brent Central (Sarah Teather) said so same period. eloquently, it is cash terms, not percentages, that mean The Chancellor, who I understand has not been able the most to ordinary people. to make it back in time for the winding-up speeches, Getting tough on welfare is lazy, mean politics. It talked about the unfairness of those on benefits keeping relies on misleading people and on conning the public their blinds down while others head out to work. Sadly, into thinking that the system is more generous than it is some Government Members—not all, to be fair—have 267 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 268 used such language today. The Tories in particular have I was pleased to hear that the SNP will support the tried to continue the myth that the Bill will only hit Labour party in today’s vote, but will the Minister people who are somehow slacking or skiving. As we clarify a point relating to disabled people—[Interruption.] have heard time and time again, the Library analysis There was me thinking that the cheer was for me being shows that just 23% of the savings will come from about to ask the Minister a hard question, but that out-of-work benefits. The harsh reality is that most will turns out not to be the case. come from people in work and on the lowest incomes, I have a question for the Minister and if he does not whether from tax credits, child benefit, maternity pay or know the answer perhaps he will check with the Secretary sick pay. It will come from the most vulnerable in our of State. Questions have been raised about the impact society—the people we should be protecting most. of these measures on disabled people, particularly those We have heard about the research by the Joseph in the support group. Will the Minister clarify that the Rowntree Foundation which shows that more than changes will indeed penalise disabled people, even those 6 million people in working households are in poverty, in the support group, because 70% of the out-of-work while the Department’s own research shows that 60% of support they rely on comes from benefits that will be children living in poverty come from families in which subject to the 1% uprating? That needs to be clarified in at least one parent works. As the projections of the the context of the Secretary of State’s suggestion that Institute for Fiscal Studies show, an extra 1 million disabled people will not be affected. children will be pushed into relative poverty by 2020 as a result of Government measures. Ministers ought to Several hon. Members rose— listen to that and take account of it, because that is all Cathy Jamieson: I must conclude because I have only before we take into account the effect of the cuts that we a couple more minutes left. are debating today. If the Government will not listen to Opposition The IFS figures confirm that all the measures announced Members or to those on their own Benches, including in the autumn statement, including the rise in the personal the hon. Members for Brent Central and for Bradford allowance and the measures in the Bill, will mean that a East (Mr Ward), both of whom raised concerns, perhaps one-earner family with children will be an average of they will listen to the voices of people outside this House £534 a year worse off by 2015. That might not seem and the 69% of the public who believe that benefits much to some Government Members, or to the millionaires should rise at least in line with inflation because that is who will get a tax cut that will give them £2,000 a week the fair thing to do. Perhaps they will listen to those while those who get jobseeker’s allowance will have an who work on the front line and see the effects of poverty extra 71p and there will be an extra 20p on child benefit. day in, day out, or to charity leaders across the UK, However, as we have heard time after time from Opposition including Oxfam, the Children’s Society, Citizens Advice Members, for a family on a low income those few and Barnardo’s who wrote an open letter earlier this week. pounds every week make the difference between a nutritious If that is not enough, will the Government at least meal on the table for the children and just a snack. It is listen to what they themselves have said in the past? It is the difference between a child being able to go to a club, good to see the Chancellor back in his place because in after-school event or school outing, or keeping the the 2011 autumn statement he said that he wanted to heating on during the coldest days of the year. “protect those who are not able to work because of their disabilities The Chancellor’s view is of people who are out of and those who, through no fault of their own, have lost jobs and work lying in bed with the blinds down, but many of are trying to find work.”—[Official Report, 29 November 2011; those I know who are out of work are staffing charity Vol. 536, c. 802.] shops, volunteering for food banks or helping out at If the Prime Minister and the Chancellor really believe the local youth centre. Those people would jump at the that, they need to show it in their actions. Unfortunately, chance to have a job if there was one for them, and as we have today seen a real divide between the Government’s we have heard, although they are unemployed at the approach and the fair approach from the Opposition. moment, many have not always been so and may have This watershed moment shows that those warm words moved in and out of work or had to reduce the number have been replaced by a chilling reality—that the of hours worked during the week. Such people would Government simply do not care. The true character of take up the opportunities offered by our work guarantee the Government has been exposed. There are tax cuts scheme; they want to pay their way but need a job that for millionaires while millions of working people pay will allow them to do so. the price for their economic failure. We need real welfare We are calling for an approach to welfare reform reform—Labour’s jobs guarantee—that is tough and that focuses on getting people back into work. Some fair, and that works. We do not need an unfair attack on Members have asked what the Labour party would do striving families trying to do their best from this out-of- were it in government, and we would look at the position touch and failing Government. of the economy at the time. We will, however, be tough and fair, and under our jobs guarantee scheme every 6.50 pm adult who is long-term unemployed will get a job that The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid): will be paid at the minimum wage for at least six months. Let me start with some comments on tone. The Government If a job exists, people have a responsibility to take it. have been wrongly accused by many on the Opposition Our scheme will be structured—this point is important Benches of using inflammatory language on this most for those who have asked about how it would work—in important issue, but let me refer to some of the a way that will allow people to look for permanent inflammatory language that has been used: work at the same time as getting experience, and over “Let’s face the tough truth—that many people on the doorstep the course of a year we expect it to help around at the last election felt that too often we were for shirkers not 263,000 people. workers.” 269 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 270

[Sajid Javid] Opposition Member addressed how they would fill that funding gap by opposing the Bill. That proves they have Those are not the words of any Government Member, no answers for the problems the Government face. but those of the shadow Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, so let us hear no more about tone from Several hon. Members rose— Opposition Members. I thank all 36 hon. Members who have made Sajid Javid: As a Treasury Minister, I know only too contributions to the debate. They have shown how well how crucial those savings are—[Interruption.] passionate they are about this issue, not least my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State Work and Pensions, Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. who has devoted nearly a decade of his career to this The Minister has said he is not giving way, so we do not important matter. While he was chairing the Centre for need people shouting from the side of the Chamber that Social Justice and looking for ways to lift the poorest he should do so. It is up to him. out of poverty, the Opposition spokesperson, the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne), Sajid Javid: I have five minutes left to sum up the whole was at the Treasury, dishing out money like there was debate and I need to take that time. no tomorrow. I therefore find it quite bizarre that he, These savings are crucial. They show that the the man who so eloquently summed up the economic Government are dealing with the record budget deficit legacy in another quote of his— they inherited. They will help to build confidence that “I’m afraid to tell you there’s no money left”— the UK is a country in which it is safe to invest in the has told us from the Opposition Dispatch Box how to long term. Meanwhile, in the short term, these are spend even more. He has told us to commit more money savings that we can reinvest to make a real difference for to public spending—money he knows we do not have. a stronger economy. Spending money is something that the right hon. Several of my hon. Friends raised the issue of fairness, Gentleman and the Opposition have an excellent record including my hon. Friends the Members for York Outer on. In the decade before the financial crisis and despite (Julian Sturdy) and for Cannock Chase (Mr Burley). a growing economy, welfare spending increased by 20% We need to continue to get Britain back to work, but we and has continued to rise from 11% of gross domestic also need to ensure that being at work pays. Since the product in 2008 to more than 13% by 2012. beginning of the financial crisis, those in work have seen their average earnings increase by 10%, while those out Ian Lucas: Will the Minister give way? of work have seen their benefits rise by 20%. This is not fair on taxpayers. It is not fair for my working constituents to pay out more to sustain welfare benefits at the exact Sajid Javid: I will give way just this once. time they are facing pressures to stretch their wages further. Nor is it fair to benefit claimants if we ensnare Ian Lucas: Will the Minister confirm that the Bill has them in a position where it pays to claim benefits rather been introduced because of the Government’s failure to than to get out and find work. deliver on the economic pledges they made in 2010? It is worth reminding the Opposition that those people who work in the public sector, whom this Government Sajid Javid: The hon. Gentleman should ask that employ to carry out their work—such as the people question of the shadow Secretary of State. There is no whom the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge money left! Let me put it simply: welfare spending costs Hill used to send out to buy his soup when he was a the UK— Cabinet Minister—have seen their pay frozen for two years and will see it increase by 1% for a further two Mr Byrne: Will the Minister give way? years. The Opposition supported that course of action, but they do not think it is right to have the same Sajid Javid: I will give way on that point. restraint—a rise of 1%--applied to benefits and tax credits. Several hon. Members also rightly raised the issue of Mr Byrne: Will the Minister confirm to the House by protecting the most vulnerable. Welfare spending is all how much extra borrowing has gone up over and above about protecting the most vulnerable members of society. his initial forecast because of his failure to deliver My hon. Friends the Members for Erewash (Jessica growth and jobs in the economy? Lee), for Keighley (Kris Hopkins) and for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke) made that point very well, Sajid Javid: We are dealing with the economic and that is why the disability carer and pension elements mismanagement of the Government of whom he was of working age benefits and tax credits will be protected. part and the deficit is already down by 25% since we It is why the basic state pension will continue to increase came to office. by the triple guarantee—the higher of earnings, prices We are spending more than £200 billion a year on or 2.5%. Even in the most difficult times, we need to welfare. That is almost £1 in every £3 raised in taxes—more protect those most in need and the changes in this Bill than the budgets for health, education and defence will achieve just that. combined. After 13 years of economic mismanagement We have heard some sensible opinions this afternoon, and overspending, the British people want a country although it has to be said that they have come almost that lives within its means once again. We need to find exclusively from this side of the House. We have also savings across the Government, and the uprating measures heard some vehement and misguided opposition from announced in the autumn statement are forecast to save the other side of the House. The Labour party opposed £2.5 billion by 2015-16. It is interesting that not one the Welfare Reform Bill. The Labour party opposed the 271 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 272 benefit cap. Now the Labour party opposes this Bill. Francis, Dr Hywel McDonnell, John The Opposition want to spend billions increasing benefits Gapes, Mike McFadden, rh Mr Pat while people up and down the country face pay freezes. Gardiner, Barry McGovern, Alison They want to spend billions increasing benefits when Gilmore, Sheila McGovern, Jim they have supported our decision to freeze public sector Glass, Pat McGuire, rh Mrs Anne pay at 1%. Given Labour’s opposition to this Bill, they Glindon, Mrs Mary McKechin, Ann Godsiff, Mr Roger McKenzie, Mr Iain really need to tell the British people where they would Goggins, rh Paul McKinnell, Catherine find that £2.5 billion for 2015-16. Would they cut the Goodman, Helen Meacher, rh Mr Michael jobs of 70,000 teachers, or perhaps 40,000 doctors? Greatrex, Tom Meale, Sir Alan Perhaps they would raise income tax by nearly 1%. If Green, Kate Mearns, Ian they do not want to do any of those things, perhaps Greenwood, Lilian Miliband, rh David they need to be honest and admit that the Labour party Griffith, Nia Miliband, rh Edward is for something for nothing, and is the same old Labour Gwynne, Andrew Miller, Andrew party that would borrow billions more to pay for higher Hain, rh Mr Peter Mitchell, Austin benefits. We are taking sensible, measured steps to put Hamilton, Mr David Moon, Mrs Madeleine right the economic mess that the Labour party left Hamilton, Fabian Morden, Jessica behind, and I commend the Bill to the House. Hanson, rh Mr David Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Harman, rh Ms Harriet Morris, Grahame M. Question put, That the amendment be made. Harris, Mr Tom (Easington) The House divided: Ayes 262, Noes 328. Havard, Mr Dai Mudie, Mr George Healey, rh John Munn, Meg Division No. 128] [6.59 pm Hendrick, Mark Murphy, rh Mr Jim Hepburn, Mr Stephen Murphy, rh Paul AYES Heyes, David Murray, Ian Abbott, Ms Diane Connarty, Michael Hillier, Meg Nandy, Lisa Abrahams, Debbie Cooper, Rosie Hilling, Julie Nash, Pamela Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Cooper, rh Yvette Hodgson, Mrs Sharon O’Donnell, Fiona Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Corbyn, Jeremy Hoey, Kate Osborne, Sandra Alexander, Heidi Crausby, Mr David Hood, Mr Jim Owen, Albert Ali, Rushanara Creagh, Mary Hopkins, Kelvin Paisley, Ian Allen, Mr Graham Creasy, Stella Hosie, Stewart Pearce, Teresa Ashworth, Jonathan Cruddas, Jon Howarth, rh Mr George Perkins, Toby Austin, Ian Cryer, John Hunt, Tristram Pound, Stephen Bailey, Mr Adrian Cunningham, Alex Irranca-Davies, Huw Powell, Lucy Bain, Mr William Cunningham, Mr Jim Jackson, Glenda Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Balls, rh Ed Cunningham, Sir Tony Jamieson, Cathy Reed, Mr Jamie Banks, Gordon Curran, Margaret Jarvis, Dan Reed, Steve Barron, rh Mr Kevin Danczuk, Simon Johnson, rh Alan Reeves, Rachel Bayley, Hugh David, Wayne Johnson, Diana Reynolds, Emma Beckett, rh Dame Margaret Davidson, Mr Ian Jones, Helen Reynolds, Jonathan Begg, Dame Anne Davies, Geraint Jones, Mr Kevan Riordan, Mrs Linda Benn, rh Hilary De Piero, Gloria Jones, Susan Elan Ritchie, Ms Margaret Benton, Mr Joe Denham, rh Mr John Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Robertson, Angus Berger, Luciana Dobbin, Jim Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Robertson, John Betts, Mr Clive Dobson, rh Frank Keeley, Barbara Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Blackman-Woods, Roberta Docherty, Thomas Kendall, Liz Rotheram, Steve Blears, rh Hazel Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Khan, rh Sadiq Roy, Mr Frank Blenkinsop, Tom Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Lammy, rh Mr David Roy, Lindsay Blomfield, Paul Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lavery, Ian Ruane, Chris Blunkett, rh Mr David Doran, Mr Frank Lazarowicz, Mark Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Doughty, Stephen Leslie, Chris Sarwar, Anas Brennan, Kevin Dowd, Jim Lewis, Mr Ivan Sawford, Andy Brown, rh Mr Gordon Doyle, Gemma Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Seabeck, Alison Brown, Lyn Dromey, Jack Long, Naomi Shannon, Jim Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Dugher, Michael Love, Mr Andrew Sharma, Mr Virendra Brown, Mr Russell Durkan, Mark Lucas, Caroline Sheerman, Mr Barry Bryant, Chris Eagle, Ms Angela Lucas, Ian Sheridan, Jim Buck, Ms Karen Eagle, Maria MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Shuker, Gavin Burden, Richard Edwards, Jonathan Mactaggart, Fiona Simpson, David Burnham, rh Andy Efford, Clive Mahmood, Mr Khalid Skinner, Mr Dennis Byrne, rh Mr Liam Elliott, Julie Mahmood, Shabana Slaughter, Mr Andy Campbell, Mr Alan Ellman, Mrs Louise Malhotra, Seema Smith, rh Mr Andrew Campbell, Mr Gregory Engel, Natascha Mann, John Smith, Angela Campbell, Mr Ronnie Esterson, Bill Marsden, Mr Gordon Smith, Nick Caton, Martin Evans, Chris McCabe, Steve Smith, Owen Champion, Sarah Farrelly, Paul McCann, Mr Michael Spellar, rh Mr John Chapman, Jenny Fitzpatrick, Jim McCarthy, Kerry Stringer, Graham Clark, Katy Flello, Robert McClymont, Gregg Stuart, Ms Gisela Clarke, rh Mr Tom Flint, rh Caroline McCrea, Dr William Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Clwyd, rh Ann Flynn, Paul McDonagh, Siobhain Tami, Mark Coaker, Vernon Fovargue, Yvonne McDonald, Andy Thomas, Mr Gareth 273 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 274

Thornberry, Emily Whitehead, Dr Alan Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Timms, rh Stephen Williams, Hywel Glen, John Lidington, rh Mr David Trickett, Jon Williamson, Chris Goldsmith, Zac Lilley, rh Mr Peter Turner, Karl Wilson, Phil Goodwill, Mr Robert Lloyd, Stephen Twigg, Derek Winnick, Mr David Gove, rh Michael Lopresti, Jack Twigg, Stephen Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Grant, Mrs Helen Lord, Jonathan Umunna, Mr Chuka Wishart, Pete Grayling, rh Chris Loughton, Tim Vaz, rh Keith Wood, Mike Greening, rh Justine Luff, Peter Vaz, Valerie Woodcock, John Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Lumley, Karen Walley, Joan Wright, David Griffiths, Andrew Macleod, Mary Watson, Mr Tom Wright, Mr Iain Gummer, Ben Main, Mrs Anne Watts, Mr Dave Tellers for the Ayes: Gyimah, Mr Sam Maude, rh Mr Francis Weir, Mr Mike Nic Dakin and Hague, rh Mr William May, rh Mrs Theresa Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Graham Jones Halfon, Robert Maynard, Paul Hames, Duncan McCartney, Jason Hammond, rh Mr Philip McCartney, Karl NOES Hammond, Stephen McIntosh, Miss Anne Adams, Nigel Cash, Mr William Hancock, Matthew McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Afriyie, Adam Chishti, Rehman Hands, Greg McPartland, Stephen Aldous, Peter Chope, Mr Christopher Harper, Mr Mark McVey, Esther Alexander, rh Danny Clappison, Mr James Harrington, Richard Menzies, Mark Amess, Mr David Clark, rh Greg Harris, Rebecca Mercer, Patrick Andrew, Stuart Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hart, Simon Metcalfe, Stephen Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Clegg, rh Mr Nick Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Miller, rh Maria Bacon, Mr Richard Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hayes, Mr John Mills, Nigel Baker, Steve Coffey, Dr Thérèse Heald, Oliver Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Baldry, Sir Tony Collins, Damian Heath, Mr David Moore, rh Michael Baldwin, Harriett Colvile, Oliver Heaton-Harris, Chris Mordaunt, Penny Barclay, Stephen Crabb, Stephen Hemming, John Morgan, Nicky Barker, rh Gregory Crockart, Mike Henderson, Gordon Morris, Anne Marie Baron, Mr John Crouch, Tracey Hendry, Charles Morris, David Barwell, Gavin Davey, rh Mr Edward Herbert, rh Nick Morris, James Bebb, Guto Davies, David T. C. Hinds, Damian Mosley, Stephen Beith, rh Sir Alan (Monmouth) Hoban, Mr Mark Mowat, David Bellingham, Mr Henry Davies, Glyn Hollingbery, George Mulholland, Greg Benyon, Richard Davies, Philip Hollobone, Mr Philip Mundell, rh David Beresford, Sir Paul de Bois, Nick Holloway, Mr Adam Munt, Tessa Berry, Jake Dinenage, Caroline Hopkins, Kris Murray, Sheryll Bingham, Andrew Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Howarth, Sir Gerald Murrison, Dr Andrew Birtwistle, Gordon Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Howell, John Neill, Robert Blackman, Bob Dorries, Nadine Hughes, rh Simon Newmark, Mr Brooks Blackwood, Nicola Doyle-Price, Jackie Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Newton, Sarah Blunt, Mr Crispin Drax, Richard Huppert, Dr Julian Norman, Jesse Boles, Nick Duddridge, James Jackson, Mr Stewart Nuttall, Mr David Bone, Mr Peter Duncan, rh Mr Alan James, Margot O’Brien, Mr Stephen Bottomley, Sir Peter Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Javid, Sajid Offord, Dr Matthew Bradley, Karen Ellis, Michael Jenkin, Mr Bernard Ollerenshaw, Eric Brady, Mr Graham Ellison, Jane Johnson, Gareth Opperman, Guy Brake, rh Tom Ellwood, Mr Tobias Johnson, Joseph Osborne, rh Mr George Bray, Angie Elphicke, Charlie Jones, Andrew Ottaway, Richard Brazier, Mr Julian Eustice, George Jones, rh Mr David Paice, rh Sir James Bridgen, Andrew Evans, Graham Jones, Mr Marcus Parish, Neil Brine, Steve Evans, Jonathan Kawczynski, Daniel Patel, Priti Brokenshire, James Evennett, Mr David Kelly, Chris Paterson, rh Mr Owen Brooke, Annette Fabricant, Michael Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Pawsey, Mark Browne, Mr Jeremy Fallon, rh Michael Kirby, Simon Penning, Mike Bruce, Fiona Farron, Tim Knight, rh Mr Greg Penrose, John Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Field, Mark Kwarteng, Kwasi Percy, Andrew Buckland, Mr Robert Foster, rh Mr Don Laing, Mrs Eleanor Perry, Claire Burley, Mr Aidan Fox,rhDrLiam Lamb, Norman Phillips, Stephen Burns, Conor Francois, rh Mr Mark Lancaster, Mark Pickles, rh Mr Eric Burns, rh Mr Simon Freeman, George Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Pincher, Christopher Burrowes, Mr David Freer, Mike Latham, Pauline Poulter, Dr Daniel Burstow, rh Paul Fullbrook, Lorraine Laws, rh Mr David Prisk, Mr Mark Burt, Alistair Fuller, Richard Leadsom, Andrea Pritchard, Mark Burt, Lorely Gale, Sir Roger Lee, Jessica Pugh, John Byles, Dan Garnier, Sir Edward Lee, Dr Phillip Raab, Mr Dominic Cable, rh Vince Garnier, Mark Leigh, Mr Edward Randall, rh Mr John Cameron, rh Mr David Gauke, Mr David Leslie, Charlotte Reckless, Mark Campbell, rh Sir Menzies George, Andrew Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Redwood, rh Mr John Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Gibb, Mr Nick Lewis, Brandon Rees-Mogg, Jacob Carswell, Mr Douglas Gilbert, Stephen Lewis, Dr Julian Reevell, Simon 275 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 276

Reid, Mr Alan Syms, Mr Robert Burrowes, Mr David Greening, rh Justine Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Burstow, rh Paul Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Robertson, rh Hugh Thurso, John Burt, Alistair Griffiths, Andrew Robertson, Mr Laurence Timpson, Mr Edward Burt, Lorely Gummer, Ben Rogerson, Dan Tomlinson, Justin Byles, Dan Gyimah, Mr Sam Rosindell, Andrew Tredinnick, David Cable, rh Vince Hague, rh Mr William Rudd, Amber Truss, Elizabeth Cameron, rh Mr David Halfon, Robert Russell, Sir Bob Turner, Mr Andrew Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hames, Duncan Rutley, David Tyrie, Mr Andrew Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hammond, rh Mr Philip Sandys, Laura Uppal, Paul Carswell, Mr Douglas Hammond, Stephen Scott, Mr Lee Vaizey, Mr Edward Cash, Mr William Hancock, Matthew Selous, Andrew Vara, Mr Shailesh Chishti, Rehman Hands, Greg Chope, Mr Christopher Harper, Mr Mark Shapps, rh Grant Vickers, Martin Sharma, Alok Clappison, Mr James Harrington, Richard Walker, Mr Charles Shelbrooke, Alec Clark, rh Greg Harris, Rebecca Wallace, Mr Ben Shepherd, Sir Richard Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hart, Simon Walter, Mr Robert Simpson, Mr Keith Clegg, rh Mr Nick Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Watkinson, Dame Angela Skidmore, Chris Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hayes, Mr John Smith, Miss Chloe Weatherley, Mike Coffey, Dr Thérèse Heald, Oliver Smith, Henry Webb, Steve Collins, Damian Heath, Mr David Smith, Julian Wharton, James Colvile, Oliver Heaton-Harris, Chris Smith, Sir Robert Wheeler, Heather Crabb, Stephen Hemming, John Soames, rh Nicholas White, Chris Crockart, Mike Henderson, Gordon Soubry, Anna Whittaker, Craig Crouch, Tracey Hendry, Charles Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Whittingdale, Mr John Davey, rh Mr Edward Herbert, rh Nick Spencer, Mr Mark Wiggin, Bill Davies, David T. C. Hinds, Damian Stanley, rh Sir John Williams, Mr Mark (Monmouth) Hoban, Mr Mark Stephenson, Andrew Williams, Roger Davies, Glyn Hollingbery, George Stevenson, John Williams, Stephen Davies, Philip Hollobone, Mr Philip Stewart, Iain Williamson, Gavin de Bois, Nick Holloway, Mr Adam Stewart, Rory Wilson, Mr Rob Dinenage, Caroline Hopkins, Kris Streeter, Mr Gary Wollaston, Dr Sarah Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Howarth, Sir Gerald Stride, Mel Wright, Jeremy Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Howell, John Dorries, Nadine Hughes, rh Simon Stuart, Mr Graham Wright, Simon Stunell, rh Andrew Doyle-Price, Jackie Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Young, rh Sir George Sturdy, Julian Drax, Richard Jackson, Mr Stewart Zahawi, Nadhim Swales, Ian Duddridge, James James, Margot Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Tellers for the Noes: Duncan, rh Mr Alan Javid, Sajid Swinson, Jo Mark Hunter and Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jenkin, Mr Bernard Swire, rh Mr Hugo Anne Milton Ellis, Michael Johnson, Gareth Ellison, Jane Johnson, Joseph Question accordingly negatived. Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jones, Andrew Elphicke, Charlie Jones, rh Mr David Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 62(2)), Eustice, George Jones, Mr Marcus That the Bill be now read a Second time. Evans, Graham Kawczynski, Daniel Evans, Jonathan Kelly, Chris The House divided: Ayes 324, Noes 268. Evennett, Mr David Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Division No. 129] [7.13 pm Fabricant, Michael Kirby, Simon Fallon, rh Michael Knight, rh Mr Greg AYES Farron, Tim Kwarteng, Kwasi Field, Mark Laing, Mrs Eleanor Adams, Nigel Birtwistle, Gordon Foster, rh Mr Don Lamb, Norman Afriyie, Adam Blackman, Bob Fox,rhDrLiam Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Aldous, Peter Blackwood, Nicola Francois, rh Mr Mark Latham, Pauline Alexander, rh Danny Blunt, Mr Crispin Freeman, George Laws, rh Mr David Amess, Mr David Boles, Nick Freer, Mike Leadsom, Andrea Andrew, Stuart Bone, Mr Peter Fullbrook, Lorraine Lee, Jessica Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Bottomley, Sir Peter Fuller, Richard Lee, Dr Phillip Bacon, Mr Richard Bradley, Karen Gale, Sir Roger Leigh, Mr Edward Baker, Steve Brady, Mr Graham Garnier, Sir Edward Leslie, Charlotte Baldry, Sir Tony Brake, rh Tom Garnier, Mark Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Baldwin, Harriett Bray, Angie Gauke, Mr David Lewis, Brandon Barclay, Stephen Brazier, Mr Julian George, Andrew Lewis, Dr Julian Barker, rh Gregory Bridgen, Andrew Gibb, Mr Nick Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Baron, Mr John Brine, Steve Barwell, Gavin Brokenshire, James Gilbert, Stephen Lidington, rh Mr David Bebb, Guto Browne, Mr Jeremy Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lilley, rh Mr Peter Beith, rh Sir Alan Bruce, Fiona Glen, John Lloyd, Stephen Bellingham, Mr Henry Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Goldsmith, Zac Lopresti, Jack Benyon, Richard Buckland, Mr Robert Goodwill, Mr Robert Lord, Jonathan Beresford, Sir Paul Burley, Mr Aidan Gove, rh Michael Loughton, Tim Berry, Jake Burns, Conor Grant, Mrs Helen Luff, Peter Bingham, Andrew Burns, rh Mr Simon Grayling, rh Chris Lumley, Karen 277 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 278

Macleod, Mary Rutley, David NOES Main, Mrs Anne Sandys, Laura Abbott, Ms Diane Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Maude, rh Mr Francis Scott, Mr Lee Abrahams, Debbie Doran, Mr Frank May, rh Mrs Theresa Selous, Andrew Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Doughty, Stephen Maynard, Paul Shapps, rh Grant Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Dowd, Jim McCartney, Jason Sharma, Alok Alexander, Heidi Doyle, Gemma McCartney, Karl Shelbrooke, Alec Ali, Rushanara Dromey, Jack McIntosh, Miss Anne Shepherd, Sir Richard Allen, Mr Graham Dugher, Michael McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Simpson, Mr Keith Ashworth, Jonathan Durkan, Mark McPartland, Stephen Skidmore, Chris Austin, Ian Eagle, Ms Angela McVey, Esther Smith, Miss Chloe Bailey, Mr Adrian Eagle, Maria Menzies, Mark Smith, Henry Bain, Mr William Edwards, Jonathan Mercer, Patrick Smith, Julian Balls, rh Ed Efford, Clive Metcalfe, Stephen Smith, Sir Robert Banks, Gordon Elliott, Julie Miller, rh Maria Soames, rh Nicholas Barron, rh Mr Kevin Ellman, Mrs Louise Mills, Nigel Soubry, Anna Bayley, Hugh Engel, Natascha Milton, Anne Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Beckett, rh Dame Margaret Esterson, Bill Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Spencer, Mr Mark Begg, Dame Anne Evans, Chris Moore, rh Michael Stanley, rh Sir John Benn, rh Hilary Farrelly, Paul Mordaunt, Penny Stephenson, Andrew Benton, Mr Joe Fitzpatrick, Jim Morgan, Nicky Stevenson, John Berger, Luciana Flello, Robert Morris, Anne Marie Stewart, Iain Betts, Mr Clive Flint, rh Caroline Morris, David Stewart, Rory Blackman-Woods, Roberta Flynn, Paul Morris, James Streeter, Mr Gary Blears, rh Hazel Fovargue, Yvonne Mosley, Stephen Stride, Mel Blenkinsop, Tom Francis, Dr Hywel Mowat, David Stuart, Mr Graham Blomfield, Paul Gapes, Mike Mulholland, Greg Stunell, rh Andrew Blunkett, rh Mr David Gardiner, Barry Mundell, rh David Sturdy, Julian Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben George, Andrew Munt, Tessa Swales, Ian Brennan, Kevin Gilmore, Sheila Murray, Sheryll Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Brown, rh Mr Gordon Glass, Pat Murrison, Dr Andrew Swinson, Jo Brown, Lyn Glindon, Mrs Mary Neill, Robert Swire, rh Mr Hugo Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Godsiff, Mr Roger Newmark, Mr Brooks Syms, Mr Robert Brown, Mr Russell Goggins, rh Paul Newton, Sarah Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Bryant, Chris Goodman, Helen Norman, Jesse Thurso, John Buck, Ms Karen Greatrex, Tom Nuttall, Mr David Timpson, Mr Edward Burden, Richard Green, Kate O’Brien, Mr Stephen Tomlinson, Justin Burnham, rh Andy Greenwood, Lilian Offord, Dr Matthew Tredinnick, David Byrne, rh Mr Liam Griffith, Nia Ollerenshaw, Eric Truss, Elizabeth Campbell, Mr Alan Gwynne, Andrew Opperman, Guy Turner, Mr Andrew Campbell, Mr Gregory Hain, rh Mr Peter Osborne, rh Mr George Tyrie, Mr Andrew Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hamilton, Mr David Ottaway, Richard Uppal, Paul Caton, Martin Hamilton, Fabian Paice, rh Sir James Vaizey, Mr Edward Champion, Sarah Hanson, rh Mr David Parish, Neil Vara, Mr Shailesh Chapman, Jenny Harman, rh Ms Harriet Patel, Priti Vickers, Martin Clark, Katy Harris, Mr Tom Paterson, rh Mr Owen Walker, Mr Charles Clarke, rh Mr Tom Havard, Mr Dai Pawsey, Mark Wallace, Mr Ben Clwyd, rh Ann Healey, rh John Penning, Mike Walter, Mr Robert Coaker, Vernon Hendrick, Mark Penrose, John Watkinson, Dame Angela Connarty, Michael Hepburn, Mr Stephen Percy, Andrew Cooper, Rosie Heyes, David Perry, Claire Weatherley, Mike Webb, Steve Cooper, rh Yvette Hillier, Meg Phillips, Stephen Corbyn, Jeremy Hilling, Julie Wharton, James Pickles, rh Mr Eric Crausby, Mr David Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Wheeler, Heather Pincher, Christopher Creagh, Mary Hoey, Kate White, Chris Poulter, Dr Daniel Creasy, Stella Hood, Mr Jim Whittaker, Craig Prisk, Mr Mark Cruddas, Jon Hopkins, Kelvin Pritchard, Mark Whittingdale, Mr John Cryer, John Hosie, Stewart Pugh, John Wiggin, Bill Cunningham, Alex Howarth, rh Mr George Raab, Mr Dominic Williams, Roger Cunningham, Mr Jim Hunt, Tristram Randall, rh Mr John Williams, Stephen Cunningham, Sir Tony Huppert, Dr Julian Reckless, Mark Williamson, Gavin Curran, Margaret Irranca-Davies, Huw Redwood, rh Mr John Wilson, Mr Rob Danczuk, Simon Jackson, Glenda Rees-Mogg, Jacob Wollaston, Dr Sarah David, Wayne Jamieson, Cathy Reevell, Simon Wright, Jeremy Davidson, Mr Ian Jarvis, Dan Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Wright, Simon Davies, Geraint Johnson, rh Alan Robertson, rh Hugh Young, rh Sir George De Piero, Gloria Johnson, Diana Robertson, Mr Laurence Zahawi, Nadhim Denham, rh Mr John Jones, Helen Rogerson, Dan Dobbin, Jim Jones, Mr Kevan Rosindell, Andrew Tellers for the Ayes: Dobson, rh Frank Jones, Susan Elan Rudd, Amber Mark Lancaster and Docherty, Thomas Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Russell, Sir Bob Mark Hunter Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Keeley, Barbara 279 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 280

Kendall, Liz Reeves, Rachel WELFARE UP-RATING BILL (PROGRAMME) Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Reynolds, Emma Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Khan, rh Sadiq Reynolds, Jonathan Lammy, rh Mr David Riordan, Mrs Linda Order No. 83A(7)), Lavery, Ian Ritchie, Ms Margaret That the following provisions shall apply to the Welfare Benefits Lazarowicz, Mark Robertson, Angus Up-rating Bill: Leech, Mr John Robertson, John Committal Leslie, Chris Robinson, Mr Geoffrey 1. The Bill shall be committed to a Committee of the whole Lewis, Mr Ivan Rotheram, Steve House. Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Roy, Mr Frank Proceedings in Committee, on Consideration and Third Reading Long, Naomi Roy, Lindsay Love, Mr Andrew Ruane, Chris 2. Proceedings in Committee, any proceedings on Consideration and proceedings on Third Reading shall be taken in one day in Lucas, Caroline Ruddock, rh Dame Joan accordance with the following provisions of this Order. Lucas, Ian Sarwar, Anas MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Sawford, Andy 3. Proceedings in Committee and any proceedings on Consideration Mactaggart, Fiona Seabeck, Alison shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion Mahmood, Mr Khalid Shannon, Jim one hour before the moment of interruption on the day on which Mahmood, Shabana Sharma, Mr Virendra proceedings in Committee are commenced. Malhotra, Seema Sheerman, Mr Barry 4. Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously Mann, John Sheridan, Jim concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption Marsden, Mr Gordon Shuker, Gavin on that day. McCabe, Steve Simpson, David 5. Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall McCann, Mr Michael Skinner, Mr Dennis not apply to proceedings in Committee, to any proceedings on McCarthy, Kerry Slaughter, Mr Andy Consideration or to proceedings on Third Reading. McClymont, Gregg Smith, rh Mr Andrew Other proceedings McCrea, Dr William Smith, Angela 6. Any other proceedings on the Bill (including any proceedings McDonagh, Siobhain Smith, Nick on consideration of Lords Amendments or on any further messages McDonald, Andy Smith, Owen from the Lords) may be programmed. —(Karen Bradley.) McDonnell, John Spellar, rh Mr John McFadden, rh Mr Pat Stringer, Graham The House divided: Ayes 322, Noes 261. McGovern, Alison Stuart, Ms Gisela Division No. 130] [7.29 pm McGovern, Jim Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Tami, Mark AYES McKechin, Ann Teather, Sarah Adams, Nigel Bruce, Fiona McKenzie, Mr Iain Thomas, Mr Gareth Afriyie, Adam Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm McKinnell, Catherine Thornberry, Emily Aldous, Peter Buckland, Mr Robert Meacher, rh Mr Michael Timms, rh Stephen Alexander, rh Danny Burley, Mr Aidan Meale, Sir Alan Trickett, Jon Amess, Mr David Burns, Conor Mearns, Ian Turner, Karl Andrew, Stuart Burns, rh Mr Simon Miliband, rh David Twigg, Derek Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Burrowes, Mr David Miliband, rh Edward Twigg, Stephen Bacon, Mr Richard Burstow, rh Paul Miller, Andrew Umunna, Mr Chuka Baker, Steve Burt, Alistair Mitchell, Austin Vaz, rh Keith Baldry, Sir Tony Burt, Lorely Moon, Mrs Madeleine Baldwin, Harriett Byles, Dan Morden, Jessica Vaz, Valerie Barclay, Stephen Cable, rh Vince Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Walley, Joan Barker, rh Gregory Cameron, rh Mr David Morris, Grahame M. Ward, Mr David Baron, Mr John Campbell, rh Sir Menzies (Easington) Watson, Mr Tom Barwell, Gavin Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Mudie, Mr George Watts, Mr Dave Bebb, Guto Carswell, Mr Douglas Munn, Meg Weir, Mr Mike Beith, rh Sir Alan Cash, Mr William Murphy, rh Mr Jim Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Bellingham, Mr Henry Chishti, Rehman Murphy, rh Paul Whitehead, Dr Alan Benyon, Richard Chope, Mr Christopher Murray, Ian Williams, Hywel Beresford, Sir Paul Clappison, Mr James Nandy, Lisa Williamson, Chris Berry, Jake Clark, rh Greg Nash, Pamela Wilson, Phil Bingham, Andrew Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth O’Donnell, Fiona Winnick, Mr David Birtwistle, Gordon Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Osborne, Sandra Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Blackman, Bob Coffey, Dr Thérèse Owen, Albert Wishart, Pete Blackwood, Nicola Collins, Damian Paisley, Ian Wood, Mike Blunt, Mr Crispin Colvile, Oliver Pearce, Teresa Woodcock, John Boles, Nick Crabb, Stephen Perkins, Toby Wright, David Bone, Mr Peter Crockart, Mike Pound, Stephen Wright, Mr Iain Bottomley, Sir Peter Crouch, Tracey Powell, Lucy Bradley, Karen Davey, rh Mr Edward Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Tellers for the Noes: Brady, Mr Graham Davies, David T. C. Reed, Mr Jamie Nic Dakin and Brake, rh Tom (Monmouth) Reed, Steve Graham Jones Bray, Angie Davies, Glyn Brazier, Mr Julian Davies, Philip Question accordingly agreed to. Bridgen, Andrew de Bois, Nick Bill read a Second time. Brine, Steve Dinenage, Caroline Brokenshire, James Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Brooke, Annette Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Browne, Mr Jeremy Doyle-Price, Jackie 281 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill8 JANUARY 2013 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 282

Drax, Richard Huppert, Dr Julian Offord, Dr Matthew Stephenson, Andrew Duddridge, James Jackson, Mr Stewart Ollerenshaw, Eric Stevenson, John Duncan, rh Mr Alan James, Margot Opperman, Guy Stewart, Iain Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Javid, Sajid Osborne, rh Mr George Stewart, Rory Ellis, Michael Jenkin, Mr Bernard Ottaway, Richard Streeter, Mr Gary Ellison, Jane Johnson, Gareth Paice, rh Sir James Stride, Mel Ellwood, Mr Tobias Johnson, Joseph Parish, Neil Stuart, Mr Graham Elphicke, Charlie Jones, Andrew Patel, Priti Stunell, rh Andrew Eustice, George Jones, rh Mr David Paterson, rh Mr Owen Sturdy, Julian Evans, Graham Jones, Mr Marcus Pawsey, Mark Swales, Ian Evans, Jonathan Kawczynski, Daniel Penning, Mike Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Evennett, Mr David Kelly, Chris Penrose, John Swinson, Jo Fabricant, Michael Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Percy, Andrew Swire, rh Mr Hugo Fallon, rh Michael Kirby, Simon Perry, Claire Syms, Mr Robert Farron, Tim Knight, rh Mr Greg Phillips, Stephen Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Field, Mark Kwarteng, Kwasi Pickles, rh Mr Eric Thurso, John Foster, rh Mr Don Laing, Mrs Eleanor Pincher, Christopher Timpson, Mr Edward Fox,rhDrLiam Lamb, Norman Poulter, Dr Daniel Tomlinson, Justin Francois, rh Mr Mark Lancaster, Mark Prisk, Mr Mark Tredinnick, David Freeman, George Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Pritchard, Mark Truss, Elizabeth Freer, Mike Latham, Pauline Pugh, John Turner, Mr Andrew Fullbrook, Lorraine Laws, rh Mr David Raab, Mr Dominic Tyrie, Mr Andrew Fuller, Richard Leadsom, Andrea Randall, rh Mr John Uppal, Paul Gale, Sir Roger Lee, Jessica Reckless, Mark Vaizey, Mr Edward Garnier, Sir Edward Lee, Dr Phillip Redwood, rh Mr John Vara, Mr Shailesh Garnier, Mark Leigh, Mr Edward Rees-Mogg, Jacob Vickers, Martin Gauke, Mr David Leslie, Charlotte Reevell, Simon Walker, Mr Charles George, Andrew Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Reid, Mr Alan Wallace, Mr Ben Gibb, Mr Nick Lewis, Brandon Robertson, rh Hugh Walter, Mr Robert Gilbert, Stephen Lewis, Dr Julian Robertson, Mr Laurence Watkinson, Dame Angela Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rogerson, Dan Glen, John Lidington, rh Mr David Rosindell, Andrew Weatherley, Mike Goldsmith, Zac Lloyd, Stephen Rudd, Amber Webb, Steve Goodwill, Mr Robert Lopresti, Jack Russell, Sir Bob Wharton, James Gove, rh Michael Lord, Jonathan Rutley, David Wheeler, Heather Grant, Mrs Helen Loughton, Tim Sandys, Laura White, Chris Grayling, rh Chris Luff, Peter Scott, Mr Lee Whittaker, Craig Greening, rh Justine Lumley, Karen Selous, Andrew Whittingdale, Mr John Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Macleod, Mary Shapps, rh Grant Wiggin, Bill Griffiths, Andrew Maude, rh Mr Francis Sharma, Alok Williams, Mr Mark Gummer, Ben Maynard, Paul Shelbrooke, Alec Williams, Roger Gyimah, Mr Sam McCartney, Jason Shepherd, Sir Richard Williams, Stephen Hague, rh Mr William McCartney, Karl Simpson, Mr Keith Williamson, Gavin Halfon, Robert McIntosh, Miss Anne Skidmore, Chris Wilson, Mr Rob Hames, Duncan McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Miss Chloe Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hammond, rh Mr Philip McPartland, Stephen Smith, Henry Wright, Jeremy Hammond, Stephen McVey, Esther Smith, Julian Wright, Simon Hancock, Matthew Menzies, Mark Smith, Sir Robert Young, rh Sir George Hands, Greg Mercer, Patrick Soames, rh Nicholas Zahawi, Nadhim Harper, Mr Mark Metcalfe, Stephen Soubry, Anna Harrington, Richard Miller, rh Maria Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Tellers for the Ayes: Harris, Rebecca Mills, Nigel Spencer, Mr Mark Mark Hunter and Hart, Simon Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stanley, rh Sir John Anne Milton Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Moore, rh Michael Hayes, Mr John Mordaunt, Penny NOES Heald, Oliver Morgan, Nicky Heath, Mr David Morris, Anne Marie Abbott, Ms Diane Begg, Dame Anne Heaton-Harris, Chris Morris, David Abrahams, Debbie Benn, rh Hilary Hemming, John Morris, James Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Benton, Mr Joe Henderson, Gordon Mosley, Stephen Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Berger, Luciana Hendry, Charles Mowat, David Alexander, Heidi Betts, Mr Clive Herbert, rh Nick Mulholland, Greg Ali, Rushanara Blackman-Woods, Roberta Hinds, Damian Mundell, rh David Allen, Mr Graham Blears, rh Hazel Hoban, Mr Mark Munt, Tessa Ashworth, Jonathan Blenkinsop, Tom Hollingbery, George Murray, Sheryll Austin, Ian Blomfield, Paul Hollobone, Mr Philip Murrison, Dr Andrew Bailey, Mr Adrian Blunkett, rh Mr David Holloway, Mr Adam Neill, Robert Bain, Mr William Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Hopkins, Kris Newmark, Mr Brooks Balls, rh Ed Brennan, Kevin Howarth, Sir Gerald Newton, Sarah Banks, Gordon Brown, rh Mr Gordon Howell, John Norman, Jesse Barron, rh Mr Kevin Brown, Lyn Hughes, rh Simon Nuttall, Mr David Bayley, Hugh Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy O’Brien, Mr Stephen Beckett, rh Dame Margaret Brown, Mr Russell 283 Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill 8 JANUARY 2013 284

Bryant, Chris Glindon, Mrs Mary McFadden, rh Mr Pat Sarwar, Anas Buck, Ms Karen Godsiff, Mr Roger McGovern, Alison Sawford, Andy Burden, Richard Goggins, rh Paul McGovern, Jim Seabeck, Alison Burnham, rh Andy Goodman, Helen McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Shannon, Jim Byrne, rh Mr Liam Greatrex, Tom McKechin, Ann Sharma, Mr Virendra Campbell, Mr Alan Green, Kate McKenzie, Mr Iain Sheerman, Mr Barry Campbell, Mr Gregory Greenwood, Lilian McKinnell, Catherine Sheridan, Jim Campbell, Mr Ronnie Griffith, Nia Meacher, rh Mr Michael Shuker, Gavin Caton, Martin Gwynne, Andrew Meale, Sir Alan Simpson, David Champion, Sarah Hain, rh Mr Peter Mearns, Ian Skinner, Mr Dennis Chapman, Jenny Hamilton, Mr David Miliband, rh David Slaughter, Mr Andy Clark, Katy Hamilton, Fabian Miliband, rh Edward Smith, rh Mr Andrew Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hanson, rh Mr David Miller, Andrew Smith, Angela Clwyd, rh Ann Harman, rh Ms Harriet Mitchell, Austin Smith, Nick Coaker, Vernon Harris, Mr Tom Moon, Mrs Madeleine Smith, Owen Connarty, Michael Havard, Mr Dai Morden, Jessica Spellar, rh Mr John Cooper, Rosie Healey, rh John Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Stringer, Graham Cooper, rh Yvette Hendrick, Mark Morris, Grahame M. Stuart, Mr Graham Corbyn, Jeremy Hepburn, Mr Stephen (Easington) Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Crausby, Mr David Heyes, David Mudie, Mr George Tami, Mark Creagh, Mary Hillier, Meg Munn, Meg Thomas, Mr Gareth Creasy, Stella Hilling, Julie Murphy, rh Mr Jim Thornberry, Emily Cruddas, Jon Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Murphy, rh Paul Timms, rh Stephen Cryer, John Hoey, Kate Murray, Ian Trickett, Jon Cunningham, Alex Hood, Mr Jim Nandy, Lisa Turner, Karl Cunningham, Mr Jim Hopkins, Kelvin Nash, Pamela Twigg, Derek Cunningham, Sir Tony Hosie, Stewart O’Donnell, Fiona Twigg, Stephen Curran, Margaret Howarth, rh Mr George Osborne, Sandra Umunna, Mr Chuka Danczuk, Simon Hunt, Tristram Owen, Albert Vaz, rh Keith David, Wayne Irranca-Davies, Huw Paisley, Ian Vaz, Valerie Davidson, Mr Ian Jamieson, Cathy Pearce, Teresa Walley, Joan Davies, Geraint Jarvis, Dan Perkins, Toby Watson, Mr Tom De Piero, Gloria Johnson, rh Alan Pound, Stephen Watts, Mr Dave Denham, rh Mr John Johnson, Diana Powell, Lucy Weir, Mr Mike Dobbin, Jim Jones, Helen Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Dobson, rh Frank Jones, Mr Kevan Reed, Mr Jamie Whitehead, Dr Alan Docherty, Thomas Jones, Susan Elan Reed, Steve Williams, Hywel Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Reeves, Rachel Williamson, Chris Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Reynolds, Emma Wilson, Phil Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Keeley, Barbara Reynolds, Jonathan Winnick, Mr David Doran, Mr Frank Kendall, Liz Riordan, Mrs Linda Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Doughty, Stephen Khan, rh Sadiq Ritchie, Ms Margaret Wishart, Pete Dowd, Jim Lammy, rh Mr David Robertson, Angus Wood, Mike Doyle, Gemma Lavery, Ian Robertson, John Woodcock, John Dromey, Jack Lazarowicz, Mark Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Wright, David Dugher, Michael Leslie, Chris Rotheram, Steve Wright, Mr Iain Durkan, Mark Lewis, Mr Ivan Roy, Mr Frank Eagle, Ms Angela Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Roy, Lindsay Tellers for the Noes: Eagle, Maria Long, Naomi Ruane, Chris Nic Dakin and Edwards, Jonathan Love, Mr Andrew Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Graham Jones Efford, Clive Lucas, Caroline Elliott, Julie Lucas, Ian Question accordingly agreed to. Ellman, Mrs Louise MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Engel, Natascha Mactaggart, Fiona Esterson, Bill Mahmood, Mr Khalid Business without Debate Evans, Chris Mahmood, Shabana Farrelly, Paul Malhotra, Seema Fitzpatrick, Jim Mann, John BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE Flello, Robert Marsden, Mr Gordon Ordered, Flint, rh Caroline McCabe, Steve That, at the sitting on Tuesday 15 January, notwithstanding Flynn, Paul McCann, Mr Michael the provisions of Standing Order No. 16 (Proceedings under an Fovargue, Yvonne McCarthy, Kerry Act or on European Union documents), the Speaker shall put the Francis, Dr Hywel McClymont, Gregg Questions necessary to dispose of proceedings on the Motion in Gapes, Mike McCrea, Dr William the name of Mr Secretary Moore relating to Constitutional Law Gardiner, Barry McDonagh, Siobhain not later than 7.00 pm.——(Karen Bradley.) Gilmore, Sheila McDonald, Andy Glass, Pat McDonnell, John 285 8 JANUARY 2013 Newcastle upon Tyne City Council 286

Newcastle upon Tyne City Council Books. A campaign is also under way to protect Newcastle city hall—our 85-year-old music venue whose long-term Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House future I genuinely hope can be secured. The council do now adjourn.—(Karen Bradley.) further proposes a 50% cut in funding to Tyne and Wear museums, which will mean a significant reduction 7.41 pm for the Discovery museum, the Laing art gallery and the Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) Great North museum. (Lab): I am grateful to have this opportunity to discuss Nobody needs to persuade me of the importance of what may well be one of the most urgent and pressing any of those institutions to our city. Indeed, they have issues affecting my city: the budgetary black hole currently all played a central role in the remarkable culture-led faced by Newcastle city council as a result of the regeneration that has taken place on Tyneside over the reductions in funding received from central Government, past decade or so under the Labour Government, and alongside ever increasing cost pressures faced by the many of them mean that creative opportunities and authority. I am particularly pleased to be joined by my experiences are available to people of all ages in Newcastle right hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne that simply did not exist when I was a child. A recent East (Mr Brown), who is keen to contribute to the economic impact assessment for NewcastleGateshead debate. Cultural Venues found that for every £1 of public Before turning to the effects of the reduction in money invested in cultural venues there was a return on funding for Newcastle city council, I want briefly to investment of £4. These organisations directly employ analyse the frankly dire financial position in which the about 1,000 people and support the local economy, council finds itself. To make up for the significant procuring at least two thirds of their goods and services shortfall in funding that it faces, the local authority from north-east suppliers. anticipates, following analysis by the city treasurer of figures published by Ministers just before Christmas, a Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): I am shortfall of £100 million over the next three years. So keen to work with the hon. Lady on trying to persuade about £39.3 million of the funding black hole is a direct the Government that, as with previous Governments, result of reductions in central Government grant funding. the funding formula is not satisfactory, but she must The remainder of the funding gap results from recognise that other authorities such as Labour Gateshead unavoidable cost pressures that the council has to absorb. and Liberal Democrat Northumberland have not slashed They include rising costs caused by inflation—of goods 100% of their arts budget or closed their swimming and services, heating and electricity—and an ageing pool. population that means that an increasing number of people require support to live independently in the later years. Worryingly, an increasing number of vulnerable Catherine McKinnell: I am pleased by the right hon. children are also being taken into care. Gentleman’s support. I will go on to address the issue that he raises, because it is a matter of perception that The economic downturn is also having a big impact needs to be properly understood. on the level of income that the council is able to raise from the goods and services that it provides, such as By significantly improving the quality of people’s retail lettings and car parking. There is simply less lives, these organisations make Newcastle a place in money going round. The council could, of course, have which people want to live, study, work, do business and looked to increase council tax to reduce its funding gap, invest. That is why I am angry about the invidious but has decided that that would be the wrong decision position in which Newcastle city council now finds itself at what remains an incredibly difficult economic time in being forced to choose between services that make for household budgets. I support its decision, for which Newcastle the fun, vibrant, economically viable city it the Government have made some resources available. is, and services such as protecting the most vulnerable children in our community. In light of the severity of the situation, the council took the decision to publish a medium-term, three-year A further vociferous campaign by well known authors indicative budget, believing that an open and honest has been launched against the council’s proposal to approach is the best way to ensure that core local close 10 of its 18 libraries across the city, which for my services remain affordable and sustainable into the future. constituency will mean the branch in Dinnington closing However, that three-year budget and the ongoing public in June this year and those in Newbiggin Hall and consultation on the proposals that it contains have Fawdon closing in March 2015. As a mother of two caused significant concern in Newcastle and beyond, as young children, I am all too well aware of the vital role the council has been forced to make difficult, if not played by local libraries in our communities, whether impossible, decisions about the services and activities it in encouraging a love of reading, providing a place to can simply no longer afford to fund. study, or offering toy-lending services or access to IT Perhaps the most vocal has been the campaign against facilities. I am dismayed that the council’s financial the council’s proposal to cut, in phases, 100% of its situation is so dire that it is closing what, to me, represents funding to certain local arts organisations, many of part of the great Victorian ideal of municipal service which are of national significance. Leading well known provision—facilities that, once closed, will probably be Geordies, including Sting, Jimmy Nail, Mark Knopfler lost for ever. and Lee Hall, have publicly castigated the council for Equally saddening are proposals to close City pool the proposal, which would impact heavily on treasured by 2016, and in my constituency to reduce funding assets such as the Theatre Royal, Northern Stage, Dance for Newburn leisure centre while seeking alternative City, Live Theatre, the Tyneside cinema and Seven arrangements to manage Outer West pool and Gosforth Stories, recently renamed the National Centre for Children’s pool. This scenario is frankly devastating coming just 287 Newcastle upon Tyne City Council8 JANUARY 2013 Newcastle upon Tyne City Council 288 after what must have been Britain’s most successful ever Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): sporting year and a London Olympics that was intended Does my hon. Friend agree that the Government’s to “inspire a generation”. withdrawal of funding is undermining local communities Then there are the proposals to cut funding for play in Liverpool as well as Newcastle? and youth services, while a £5 million reduction in funding will, by 2015-16, see the end of Sure Start Catherine McKinnell: It is obviously for my hon. centre provision in Brunswick, Fawdon, Denton and Friend to speak on behalf of the people of Liverpool, Westerhope, Lemington, Newbiggin Hall and Newburn— but I have no doubt that the cuts are impacting on all of and that is just in my constituency. The importance of the core cities and I will make the economic point about Sure Start services in supporting young children and that later in my speech. families is absolutely invaluable, and I have serious Baroness Eaton, who was until recently the Conservative concerns about the sheer number of places in my chair of the Local Government Association, described constituency that will no longer be able to access such the Secretary of State’s understanding of the effect of facilities, which have become embedded in local local government cuts as communities. “detached from the reality councils are dealing with”. Possibly of greatest significance in impact on individual I could not agree more. Meanwhile, Sir Merrick Cockell lives is the proposed closure of Cheviot View, which has called the cuts “unsustainable” and the Tory leader opened only in 2008 in Newbiggin Hall to provide of Kent says that his county “can’t cope” with further overnight residential short-break care for children and reductions and is “running on empty”. young people with disabilities. Many families are extremely When deliberating on what I would raise in this debate concerned about the potential effect on their quality of —unfortunately time is short and it has been difficult to life if the closure of Cheviot View is to go ahead. cut down my speech—I decided to think about what the Those are just some of the ways in which cuts to Minister would say in response. That is fairly predictable, Newcastle city council’s budget will impact on local so I will use this opportunity to respond now to what residents and organisations. Of course, the council is I believe he will say. not just reducing front-line services; it is also cutting I am sure that the Minister will claim, like the Secretary 1,300 of its remaining 8,000 staff over the next three of State before him, that the average reduction in council years. I expect that the Minister will want to characterise spending power across the country has been only 1.7% these people as “pen-pushers” doing “non-jobs”, but let and, indeed, that Newcastle has fared pretty well, because me assure him that they are not. They are dinner ladies, its spending power has fallen by only 1.5% in cash terms refuse collectors, people working in children’s services—real as a result of the recent funding settlement. I say to him people with real lives and real families to support, now that that is disingenuous at best and seriously misleading looking for work elsewhere at a time when opportunities at worst. are pretty scarce. The headline figure, which applies to only the first year of the settlement—2013-14—has in fact already Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): Is my been shown to be inaccurate and substantially understated, hon. Friend aware of the misleading statement by the with the Department for Communities and Local Prime Minister last week, and does she think that it is Government double-counting the council tax support mere coincidence that the areas hardest hit are those grant and council tax income for both 2012-13 and with the greatest need? 2013-14. Other errors include the cut in the early intervention grant being significantly understated. Newcastle city council believes a more realistic estimate of the cut Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I to be 3.2%, which is more than double the published need the hon. Gentleman to rephrase what he thought figure, or a 4.9% cut in grant funding. I therefore ask about the Prime Minister’s statement. He cannot make the Minister to make a commitment this evening to that accusation. He can say another word rather than ensure that statements made about the level of spending “misleading”, and I would like him to do it now. power cuts are formally corrected. The 1.7% headline figure also completely masks the Steve Rotheram: The Prime Minister has already far greater cuts that will take place in year 2 of the admitted that the statistics he gave only last week were settlement. Newcastle faces a 6.8% drop in spending misleading. He said that he was poorly briefed, but the power by 2014-15, compared with a 5.5% average fall in statistics were misleading. England and only 1.6% in Surrey. The Minister will no doubt try to persuade me that Catherine McKinnell: I thank my hon. Friend for his the cuts being experienced by Newcastle are fair and intervention and clarification. I will go on to address not disproportionate when compared with other parts some of the misleading information that has been circulating of the country, but the facts show clearly that over the and the concern that it has caused. next three years the cuts will be much higher in northern What has the Government’s response been to the areas and a few inner-London boroughs. According to situation in which Newcastle and other local authorities DCLG’s own figures, the cut in Newcastle’s spending throughout the country now find themselves? Sadly, it power between 2012-13 and 2014-15 will be £218 per seems to be one of complete disdain. I, like many person, compared with a national average of £134 and a others, am extremely concerned about the way in which cut of only £27 per head in Wokingham. the Secretary of State has attempted to dismiss and I refer to Wokingham because, in returning to my downplay the very real concerns about the impact of his predictions, I assume that the Minister intends to make funding decisions. the time-honoured comparison between Newcastle’s 289 Newcastle upon Tyne City Council8 JANUARY 2013 Newcastle upon Tyne City Council 290

[Catherine McKinnell] All I am asking is that they treat Newcastle city council and my constituents with the respect that they situation and that of the Berkshire town. He will inform deserve and act urgently on their concerns. us that Newcastle sill has a spending power per household that is more than £700 greater than that in Wokingham. Nobody doubts that that is the case and let me be clear: 7.57 pm I have nothing against Wokingham. I use that example because it is the one that Ministers always bring up Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab): whenever challenged on their approach to spending cuts. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) on securing I thought it might be helpful to clarify for the Minister this important debate for the people of the city that we precisely why Newcastle receives a higher grant than both have the honour and privilege to represent. Wokingham—it is because our needs are higher. Newcastle has four times more children in care, greater homelessness It is an unfortunate fact that the map of the cuts needs, higher council tax support needs and fewer people distribution and the political map of England are almost who are able to self-fund their own elderly care. Compared identical. The average cut per head for Labour councils with Wokingham, Newcastle receives four times as much is £107, while for Tory and Liberal Democrat councils funding for the statutory concessionary fares scheme, the average cut is just £36 and £38 respectively. Of the yet it faces costs that are nine times higher due to the councils with a cut of more than £100 a head, 86% are sheer number of poorer pensioners who use bus services. Labour controlled and only 5.4% are Tory run. As a matter of urgency, the Government should review the Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): way in which the funding formula distributes the cuts Will the hon. Lady give way? burden across different local authorities. I support the call made today by the leader of Newcastle city council, Nick Forbes, to establish an independent body to determine Catherine McKinnell: I am sorry, but I do not have objectively council funding arrangements. much time to complete my speech. Where local government finance becomes completely Other issues are specific to Newcastle. In 2009, Newcastle inexplicable is in the fact that Wokingham receives was in the top seven of the 36 metropolitan councils in £124 more funding per household than Newcastle for England for indebtedness. In 2004, when the Liberal “damping”, or protection against excessive loss of grant. Democrats gained control of Newcastle city council, Wokingham will receive an increase next year in resources the municipal debt was £431 million. By 2010-11, under to protect against excessive grant cuts that is three times the Liberal Democrat administration, that had risen to greater than that in Newcastle. A system that was £962 million. The cost of servicing that debt is more originally intended to protect councils from high levels than £40 million a year. That comes straight out of the of grant reductions is instead providing more protection local authority’s budget. It cannot be adjusted downwards, to some of the wealthiest councils which have faced the and if interest rates rise, it will go in the opposite smallest cuts in their spending power. direction. I suspect that the Minister will also mention the Newcastle has to meet the costs of cared-for people, £16 billion in reserves, on which the Secretary of State out of all proportion to its tax base. There are currently believes councils are blithely sitting. However, he knows 522 children in care in Newcastle. That translates to that the £16 billion figure across the country includes 100 children in care per 10,000 children, compared with £12 billion of reserves that are earmarked for specific the England average of 59 per 10,000 children. The purposes, such as funding capital investment commitments situation is the same with the elderly. In 2011-12, the in future years, meeting insurance claims, meeting equal council helped to support nearly 10,000 adults with pay or redundancy costs, and meeting the cost of flood substantial or critical care needs and more than damage that cannot be claimed under the Bellwin scheme. 17,000 people with lower care needs. In Newcastle, The latter point is of particular relevance to Newcastle, 63 adults per 10,000 are receiving permanent or temporary given the devastating flooding in parts of the city last residential or nursing care. The England average is year. 39 per 10,000 adults. Pressure on those services is mounting rather than declining, yet the existing position is not Indeed, reserves were referred to in the Secretary of even inflation-proofed. State’s somewhat patronising document on 50 “sensible savings” that was published last month. I point out to In 2003, the town of Gateshead and the city of the Minister that Newcastle city council has already Newcastle bid together for capital of culture designation made efficiencies of £100 million over the past three and made a very credible case. The current Government’s years and has undertaken almost all of the Department’s policies have forced the council to consult on ending the savings proposals. culture budget, which totals some £1.6 million a year. That is so far removed from anything that Newcastle In conclusion, Newcastle city council believes that it citizens would want, and from any rational, economic is in an impossibly difficult situation. Newcastle and development-based view of the role of the arts in creating other members of the Core Cities Group are having to employment in a regional centre such as Newcastle, that write to the Secretary of State to inform him that it serves as an exemplar of how far the council has been “there will be no money for anything but social care and refuse forced into considering unpalatable decisions. The situation collection later in this decade” is all the more ironic because under the Liberal Democrat unless the current funding plans are changed. The Secretary administration, the council scandalously spent millions of State and his Ministers appear complacent, dismissive of pounds on the mismanaged Waygood art gallery and even indifferent to the concerns that are being project, which totalled many times more than the council’s raised. annual cultural budget today. 291 Newcastle upon Tyne City Council8 JANUARY 2013 Newcastle upon Tyne City Council 292

Even essential services such as Sure Start cannot the right thing by their communities. If they bring in avoid a reduction. The council has taken steps to try to jobs and businesses, they will be rewarded. That could reduce the cost burden on that important service in the be particularly opportune in the context of the hon. short term, but with the added cuts announced by the Lady’s comments about the investment in culture that Government it looks likely that larger reductions will be she feels the council should maintain. I will come back needed. That flies in the face of the Prime Minister’s to that in a moment, but I hope she wins that debate pre-election pledge to protect Sure Start. with the council. We cannot even get help from the Government on Research suggests that allowing councils to keep a relatively small things. Months ago, on 4 July 2012, share of the business rates could generate an additional I raised the issue of estate agents’ “To Let” signs. The £10 billion for the national economy by 2020. Our Government promised to help, yet so far nothing has reforms will enable about 70% of local authority income been forthcoming. to be raised locally, compared with a little more than Overshadowing all that is the employment situation half under the current formula grant system. That is a in the north-east. More than 3,200 people are unemployed giant step forward for localism. in Newcastle upon Tyne East, nearly 1,000 of whom The start-up funding assessment, which gives each have been unemployed for more than a year. There are council a share of the funding, will mean £26 billion 10 jobseeker’s allowance claimants for every advertised being shared between councils across the country, with vacancy at the jobcentre, and unemployment is heavily the smallest reductions being for the councils that are concentrated in the former shipbuilding riverside most reliant on Government funding. Recent analysis communities, with an unemployment rate of 14% in by the House of Commons Library states: Byker and more than 18% in Walker, compared with an “For each of the expenditure/funding measures the more deprived average rate of 9.5% for the north-east as a whole and areas generally receive higher per capita allocations than less 7.8% for England. deprived areas” The council’s contribution to the economic development and percentage reductions are of the east end and the riverside is significant and “generally smaller for the most deprived and larger for the less underpins what is easily the best prospect for building deprived areas.” the employment base of the east end of Newcastle. It goes on to say that: Logically, that should be in the Government’s best “The group of authorities more dependent on formula grant to interests as well, and they should offer a helping hand. finance their budget—generally the more deprived areas—is set the highest floor level, representing the smallest reduction.” 8.1 pm We have worked closely with local government in developing the rates retention scheme and listened to TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforCommunities what councils have told us during the extensive consultation and Local Government (Brandon Lewis): I first join the process last year. For example, we have reduced the right hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East amounts we are setting aside for the new homes bonus (Mr Brown) in congratulating the hon. Member for and academies funding, which in total means an additional Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) on £1.9 billion for local authorities up front in 2013-14. securing the debate and giving us the opportunity to go We have put in place a safety-net arrangement to through some of the principles behind the Government’s provide protection for councils that might be affected work on the local government finance settlement. As the by the closure of a large local employer. We have set the hon. Lady will know, there is currently a consultation safety net at the most generous level in the range consulted process. This week—I think on Thursday—I will be on, meaning that councils will be guaranteed 92.5% of meeting representatives from the councils of Newcastle their original baseline funding under the scheme. Local to go through specific issues, and I will take on board authorities told us that they wanted a stronger growth their comments. incentive and we were happy to respond. We have made The proposals that my right hon. Friend the Secretary the scheme more generous, ensuring that at least 25p in of State set out on 19 December are out for consultation. every pound of business rate growth will be retained I want to be clear that we believe that it is vital that locally. The settlement leaves councils with considerable councils continue to play their part in tackling the spending power. inherited budget deficit by making sensible savings and delivering value for money for the taxpayer. The settlement Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): recognises the responsibility of local government to We have heard an impassioned case on behalf of Newcastle find sensible savings and make better use of its resources, but the settlement inherited from the previous Government and it marks a new type of settlement for local government was not only a toxic debt but a situation in which based on self-determination and financial independence. funding for local government is 50% higher in urban It is a move from the begging bowl to pride in locality, than rural areas, despite the fact that delivering so many and it is the start of the biggest shake-up of local services in rural areas is more expensive. The real injustice government finance in a generation. is the historic underfunding of rural areas and the As the Secretary of State said, we are shifting power danger that that could be held in place all the way to from Whitehall directly to the town hall, and we are 2020. It is not so much about Newcastle, although the providing a direct financial incentive for councils to challenges are everywhere, but we are seeing real injustice promote growth and jobs in their area. From April, in rural areas. authorities will directly retain nearly £11 billion of business rates instead of returning it to the Treasury, Brandon Lewis: I have already met a number of and they will be able to keep the growth on that share of councils that have made that case about rural areas. The business rates. Striving councils will benefit by doing detrimental impact of damping on some of those areas 293 Newcastle upon Tyne City Council8 JANUARY 2013 Newcastle upon Tyne City Council 294

[Brandon Lewis] some of the points raised. I have no doubt that some of these issues will be raised in a meeting with Newcastle has been made clear to us in the consultation so far and councils on Thursday. She predicted, quite rightly, that we are very aware of the issue. My hon. Friend makes a I would mention some of the numbers involved, and strong point with great passion. I do not want to disappoint her. A small number of authorities will require larger As the hon. Lady will know, Newcastle has expected savings to be made, but our proposals indicate that no spending power per household of £2,522. She is right council will face a loss of more than 8.8% in its spending that that is almost £700 more than we proposed for power thanks to a new efficiency support grant. I will Wokingham, but let us not single out Wokingham. I declare an interest and return in a moment to the could reel off a list of councils that would love £2,500 figures mentioned by the hon. Lady because authorities spending power per household. My council in Great such as mine in Great Yarmouth are suffering thanks to Yarmouth, which has two of the most deprived wards the problems inherited from the previous Labour in the country, is on about £500 less per household. Government’s funding structure. As the name implies, Such deprived areas get far less than areas such as councils must improve services to qualify for the efficiency Newcastle, so it is not right to pick out Wokingham. support grant. It is unfair to expect, as currently happens, I could run off a list of councils, but Madam Deputy the rest of local government to subsidise other councils’ Speaker would not thank me for listing the majority of failure to embrace modernity or move forward to a councils, which get far less than Newcastle. The figure more efficient delivery of services. The settlement is not quoted at the moment compares well with Newcastle’s about what councils can take but about helping them per household figure for last year, but as the hon. Lady take the most from what they can make. has said, we are still in the consultation process. We Predictably, the doom mongers have been consulting expect that Newcastle could do better than the national their Mayan calendars and issuing dire warnings about average next year in terms of overall spending power, the end of the world as we know it and a billion pound and for Liverpool, its co-signatory, to be at the average. black hole in local budgets. Concerns that the poorest We have maintained the system of damping, which councils or those in the north will suffer disproportionately I have mentioned. Some authorities have concerns with are well wide of the mark, as made clear in the report by damping, but the Government have set a floor below the House of Commons that I cited a moment ago. In which council funding will not fall. fact, the spending power for places in the north compares In the autumn statement, the Chancellor recognised well—in fact, favourably—with those in the south. that the sector has risen to the challenge thus far. That is why, unlike most of central Government, local Catherine McKinnell: As I said, it is concerning that government was exempted from the further 1% top slice the Minister and the Secretary of State are referring to next year, which is worth approximately £240 million just the first year of the budget settlement, rather than to councils. However, towards 2014 and beyond, local the full spending period. The way that core urban city government needs to continue to find better, more Labour council areas compare with other places—I efficient ways of doing things. We need to remember gave the example of Surrey and Wokingham—is quite that the money is not created by a central Government significant over the full spending period. money tree; it is hard-earned taxpayers’ money that— Brandon Lewis: I think that Members from Surrey would make the opposite argument in terms of the 8.11 pm effect that damping has on their areas, but if the hon. House adjourned without Question put (Standing Order Lady will bear with me, I will move on and try to answer No. 9(7)). 1WH 8 JANUARY 2013 Sri Lanka 2WH

then chaired, and she was hypnotic. She explained how Westminster Hall the Sri Lankan Government tried to prevent reporting of what was going on. They would not allow in independent Tuesday 8 January 2013 journalists, but, thanks to her persistence and courage, Marie was able to present evidence that the Government were firing cluster bombs, white phosphorus and rockets [MR PHILIP HOLLOBONE in the Chair] on civilian areas, including hospitals and so-called safe Sri Lanka zones. She was a trailblazer and a wonderful woman. I was fortunate to meet her on several later occasions, Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting and she made a lasting impression not just on me but on be now adjourned.—(Mr Swayne.) everyone who met her. Unfortunately, she was killed last year while reporting from Syria, where there are 9.30 am many parallels with Sri Lanka. Her death was not only Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): a terrible loss for journalism, but a real blow to those of May I wish you, Mr Hollobone, and—through you— us who want to know the truth about conflicts that the everybody in this Chamber, a very happy new year? I rest of the international community is happy to keep hope that this debate will mark a small step in the under wraps. In relation to Sri Lanka, her bravery attempts of the Tamil people of Sri Lanka to gain contrasts with the cowardice of the international justice. community. I called this debate in response to last November’s As the internal review has proved, the international publication of the United Nations investigation of its community knew about the abuses that Marie Colvin handling of war crimes in Sri Lanka, which concluded put herself in danger to uncover, but it still failed to that the response from the international community to protect tens of thousands of innocent people. The the tragedy of the Tamils was inadequate. According to international community’s weakness shames us all. We the internal review, UN staff in Colombo and New now need to deal with that shame. Human Rights York simply did not perceive prevention of the killing Watch has said that although Ban Ki-moon of civilians as their responsibility.Despite the International “deserves credit for starting a process he knew could tarnish his Committee of the Red Cross reporting an “unimaginable office, he will now be judged on his willingness to implement the humanitarian catastrophe”, the UN suppressed information report’s recommendations and push for justice for Sri Lanka’s on casualty figures and hid the Sri Lankan Government’s victims.” responsibility for the lives lost. Following intimidation The international community was weak in its handling and threats from the Government, the UN unquestionably of this tragedy as it unfolded; we should not be weak relocated its staff away from the fighting. when it comes to imposing justice after it has happened. Rather than trying to stop the atrocities, the international No regime in the world should be able to think that if it community turned a blind eye. Tens of thousands of commits the most heinous crimes, it will be left untouched. people were being massacred, yet at the time the The UN has an overriding responsibility to protect that international community pretended that it was not supersedes sovereignty. We should have used the happening. Oppression on a barely imaginable scale responsibility to protect during the conflict. If we had, took place. Thanks to the fearless reporting of a small thousands of Sri Lankan Tamils would still be alive. We number of journalists, the truth is out. Channel 4’s now surely have a responsibility to hold to account a documentary, “Sri Lanka’s Killing Fields”, deserves Government who have treated their citizens in such an special praise. Anyone who doubts why we need justice appalling way. As Amnesty International has said: should watch that astonishing documentary. The images “This report is…a wake-up call for UN member states that broadcast by Channel 4 are among the most harrowing have not pushed hard enough for an independent international ever to appear on television. They showed what the UN investigation into alleged war crimes… The report clearly illustrates special rapporteur on extrajudicial killings concluded the Sri Lankan government’s lack of will to protect civilians or was evidence of “definitive war crimes” and what the account for very serious violations. There is no evidence that has UN Secretary-General’s panel of experts admitted was changed”. “a grave assault on the entire regime of international law”. Responsibility to protect is a concept at the heart of Last year, I nominated “Channel 4 News” for the Nobel modern international relations. It has three core elements: peace prize. In my nomination letter, I said: first, states are responsible for protecting populations from genocide, war crimes, crimes against humanity “By bringing to light the breaches of international conventions by the Government of Sri Lanka in a bold manner and by piecing and ethnic cleansing and from their incitement, but, together numerous forms of evidence in a coherent way, the value secondly, the international community has a responsibility of independent journalism to the building of a peaceful global to ensure that states fulfil that requirement and, thirdly, order in the century ahead has been amply demonstrated.” the international community—that is us—has a I want to pay my respects to the amazing Marie responsibility to use diplomatic, humanitarian and other Colvin, one of the most astonishing people whom I means to protect populations from those crimes. If a have ever had the privilege to meet. Marie was a veteran state manifestly fails to protect its population, the war correspondent for The Sunday Times, and won international community must be prepared to take collective numerous awards, including best foreign correspondent. action to do so. All three pillars of the responsibility to She was fearless in her reporting of Sri Lanka’s troubles. protect were broken in Sri Lanka. In fact, she was so unafraid of getting close enough to find out the truth that, in 2001, she sustained shrapnel Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD): I congratulate wounds to her eyes, chest and arms while reporting the hon. Lady on securing this debate, and many from Sri Lanka. In March 2009, I invited her to speak others in this House on their work campaigning on the at a meeting of the all-party group on Tamils, which I terrible and tragic war in Sri Lanka and the abuse and 3WH Sri Lanka8 JANUARY 2013 Sri Lanka 4WH

[Paul Burstow] Heads of Government meeting in Colombo later this year? I hope that we will see such a view reflected in the terrible suffering of many Tamils. She raises the issue Minister’s response today. of international pressure. Sri Lanka will host the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in 2013. Siobhain McDonagh: I absolutely agree with my hon. Does she agree that unless the Sri Lankan Government Friend. We all have faith in the Minister, and we ask live up to their promises and start a genuine process of him to take action. peace and reconciliation, and unless there is an international As there is no justice or accountability with the inquiry, the British Government should not be represented LLRC, what we see instead is a culture of impunity— at that summit? enforced disappearances, extrajudicial killings, gender-based violence as well as the recent trumped-up impeachment proceedings against the Chief Justice—which is testament Siobhain McDonagh: I strongly support the right to the breakdown of the rule of law in Sri Lanka. Just hon. Gentleman’s intervention, which I hope to address as we had a responsibility to protect civilians at the time later. of the killings, so too do we now for ensuring that there The UN internal review proved that war crimes and is accountability. human rights violations took place, but it admitted that UN staff did not think that preventing those killings Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): Does was their responsibility and that they deliberately suppressed my hon. Friend accept that there are credible reports casualty figures. According to the review, when the UN that torture is routinely being used against the Tamil began collating information on casualties the community remaining in Sri Lanka? Constituents have come to my surgery with clear evidence of torture, “reports pointed to the large majority of civilian killings as being which backs up the more widespread reports from the result of Government shelling and aerial bombardment, with Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch that a smaller proportion of killings resulting from the LTTE actions.” torture is still going on routinely in the country. However, the UN played down evidence about the scale of what was happening, and the truth was portrayed as Siobhain McDonagh: I completely accept what my propaganda from Tamil Tiger terrorists. hon. Friend says about the ongoing torture against Tamils in Sri Lanka. It must be said though that other In fact, as outlined by the Secretary-General’s panel ethnic groups are also being tortured now. of experts on Sri Lanka in 2011, and as we were told by Marie Colvin in 2009, there was systematic shelling of Without accountability, we are seeing torture, hospitals and civilians by Government forces, as well as disappearances and killings, yet the Commonwealth restrictions on humanitarian aid and assistance. The Heads of Government meeting is still scheduled to take panel of experts speaks of “tens of thousands” of place in Colombo in November. What sort of message casualties—perhaps up to 40,000—and even worse figures does that send out? The Commonwealth was right a are now emerging. The Bishop of Mannar, Rayappu couple of years ago to take away from Sri Lanka the Joseph, has stated that over 146,000 remain unaccounted honour of hosting a summit. If it was right to do that for, and the former BBC journalist Frances Harrison then, how can it be right now to let Sri Lanka have that cites a World Bank estimate of 100,000 people still honour when our fears about its Government have been missing. All that only emphasises the importance of confirmed? Canada has bravely stated that it will not having an independent, international inquiry into the attend the 2013 summit unless significant progress is conduct of both sides during the conflict. Credible made on human rights and accountability. Why cannot investigations into war crimes allegations and human Britain show the same leadership? Why are we so rights abuses are a duty under domestic and international determined to brush accountability under the carpet, law. However, Sri Lanka’s own inquiry, the so-called just as the UN did with the evidence of atrocities four Lessons Learnt and Reconciliation Commission, has years ago? failed completely to provide the accountability required. In November, I wrote to the Prime Minister imploring It has been described as “deeply flawed” by the panel of him to do the responsible thing. I pointed out that the experts, which has called for an independent, international number of people who had been killed in the space of investigation into war crimes. The LLRC was not just five months was roughly the same as the entire independent or international, and our fears about it population of the major towns of his constituency: have been shown to be well founded. Government forces Witney, Carterton and Chipping Norton. Those poor were largely exonerated of culpability. Only military people were herded into an area smaller than the Prime rather than independent courts of inquiry have been Minister’s constituency, tricked into believing that it established to look into the few abuse cases that were was a safe zone and then relentlessly targeted while the deemed worthy of further consideration by the LLRC. institutions of the international community made a deliberate choice not to help, even though they knew what was happening. I pointed out that Britain’s Tamil Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): I am grateful to community, which numbers more than 250,000 people, my hon. Friend for giving way and pay tribute to the is still grieving. I asked what the British Government work that she has done over many years in exposing were doing to ensure that there is justice for Tamils now. what has been going on. Does she recall that, in a In particular, I said that it would send out a terrible previous debate on the LLRC, the Minister said that the message if Sri Lanka were permitted the honour of Government would see what action the LLRC took, hosting the CHOGM. I said: and if it were not substantial they would take much “If a nation had systematically killed every single person you stronger action and do precisely what the right hon. knew in Witney, Carterton and Chipping Norton, raping and Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow) said murdering in cold blood, I do not think that you would find it and review again the decision to hold the Commonwealth acceptable for that Government to host an event as prestigious as 5WH Sri Lanka8 JANUARY 2013 Sri Lanka 6WH a Commonwealth summit, or for our Government to attend… However, what will the British Government do about The international community has admitted it failed to help Tamils them? We have not stopped deporting Tamils who are before, and cancelling the summit will ensure that mistake is not claiming asylum, even though most reasonable people compounded.” would think that any Tamil who made a big deal about hating the Sri Lankan Government when they were in Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): I understand the UK might be most at risk of disappearance, violence the hon. Lady’s concerns, but does she accept that there and torture. were human rights violations on both sides of the community in Sri Lanka—certainly during the war and Mr Thomas: Is my hon. Friend aware of the recent in the immediate post-war period—and that the relationship report by Human Rights Watch, which cites examples between the communities has improved in recent years? of a number of asylum seekers deported from Britain Secondly, does she accept that hosting the Commonwealth and a number of other European countries who were Heads of Government meeting would mean that Sri tortured on their return to Sri Lanka? Lanka had a global audience looking at it, and that that in itself may produce the result that she is looking for? Siobhain McDonagh: I am aware of that report, and I Siobhain McDonagh: I totally disagree with the hon. have also read appeal judgments and documents from Gentleman. I am sure that his motivations are entirely the Medical Institute for Victims of Torture. I am well good, but he misreads how the Sri Lankan Government aware of some of the cases involved; indeed, some of interpret representations from foreign Governments. If them involve my constituents or my hon. Friend’s the Queen were to put her foot on the soil in Colombo it constituents. would be regarded as a vindication of the Sri Lankan The Foreign Secretary said: Government’s actions—and this is at a time when at “We seek to promote progress through direct lobbying, working least 40,000 people are still dying or missing. with international partners, and funding human rights projects.” I have to say that it is not very reassuring to learn that Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): I am startled by the Government’s approach to getting Sri Lanka to the view that if Her Majesty were to put her foot on the behave is to give it more money. soil of Sri Lanka it would be an insult to democracy. Recently, Her Majesty had to shake the hand of the Finally, the Foreign Secretary fails to offer any support leader of the Provisional IRA in Northern Ireland in an for the idea of a boycott of the Commonwealth summit, effort to demonstrate that peace happens through process although he says the UK Government and progress. Sri Lanka should be hearing the message “believe that the host of the Commonwealth Heads of Government that we are here to help. We should stretch out our hand meeting should uphold the Commonwealth values of good governance to Sri Lanka; we should not step on Sri Lanka. I must and respect for human rights. We will look to Sri Lanka to say that I am amazed by the hon. Lady’s position. demonstrate its commitment to these values, both now and in the run up to the meeting in 2013.” Siobhain McDonagh: I am amazed by the hon. I would be grateful if the Minister could expand a little Gentleman’s intervention. As he knows, the process upon that in his response to the debate. In what possible towards reconciliation has taken 600 years in Ireland. It way does he think that Sri Lanka is currently demonstrating is a struggle with which I am well acquainted because of “commitment to these values”? my own family background. Unlike the Sri Lankan I note that the Minister is going to Sri Lanka later Government, the British Government under different this year. No doubt his presence will be portrayed by parties accepted that there were things that they could the Government there as yet another vindication of and could not do. I accept that there were atrocities and their murderous approach. If he wants to ensure that human rights violations on the part of the Liberation his visit is not another public relations victory for a Tigers of Tamil Eelam. Democratically elected regime that feels it is immune from accountability for Governments are always judged to a higher standard. war crimes, will he use his visit as an opportunity to Let me continue with what I said to the Prime Minister: warn his hosts that Britain and the Queen will not be “The international community has admitted it failed to help attending a summit that is built on blood? When my Tamils before, and cancelling the summit will ensure that mistake right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (David is not compounded. I believe it is in the international community’s Miliband) visited Sri Lanka in 2009, he was not afraid best interests—and the best interests of the United Kingdom, as to confront the Rajapaksa regime. When the Minister well as of Sri Lanka—for there to be an independent international investigation into war crimes in order to bring a lasting peace in visits Sri Lanka later this month, will he do the same as Sri Lanka after such a long period of ethnic conflict. However, my right hon. Friend did, or will he have meetings about while this continues not to take place, Sri Lanka should not be trade? hosting the Commonwealth summit.” The response was weak. The Prime Minister himself Mr Aidan Burley (Cannock Chase) (Con): The hon. did not answer my letter, passing it instead to the Lady mentions the fact that lots of people visit Sri Lanka. Foreign Secretary. The reply was very disappointing. May I ask her when she last visited Sri Lanka? She has First, instead of supporting an international inquiry mentioned lots of second-hand evidence in her speech into Sri Lanka’s behaviour, he said that the Government so far, but when did she last visit Sri Lanka and see for “believe that the process of reconciliation has a greater chance of herself—at first hand—some of the things that she is success if investigations are Sri Lankan-led rather than externally alleging are happening there? imposed.” He said that the British Government were concerned Siobhain McDonagh: I have never been to Sri Lanka, about the human rights abuses in Sri Lanka, such as but I respect the views of the UN special envoy to “disappearances, political violence and reports of torture in custody.” Sri Lanka, the UN, the Canadian Government, the 7WH Sri Lanka8 JANUARY 2013 Sri Lanka 8WH

[Siobhain McDonagh] Siobhain McDonagh: Thank you, Mr Hollobone. May I say to the hon. Gentleman that I have never been Australian Government, the US Government, Human invited to Sri Lanka? Generally, I do not do international Rights Watch and Amnesty International. Are all of travel in my role as an MP, because I am constituency- those organisations bogus? Do we not believe anything focused. I secured this debate, and I have become involved that any of them say? in the Tamil cause, because of the Tamil community in my constituency and because of the information that I have received from them. I have become aware of the Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): My hon. Friend despair and distress that they experience. My own experience the Member for Cannock Chase (Mr Burley) made as someone who is London-Irish—I have Irish parents— exactly the same point that I will now make. I do not is that people cannot just ignore what happened in the think that anyone is suggesting that those organisations past. People cannot just move on and forget, because are bogus, or that the claims of constituents are bogus. people do not forget. If we do nothing now, we will say We are asking the hon. Lady about her opinion. to the next young generation that violent struggle will continue. We must address the issues now, in order to Siobhain McDonagh: Just as I have not been to Syria, make progress. Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan and—it has to be said—most countries in the world, I have not been to Sri Lanka and Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I compliment I determine my views of the country on the basis of the my hon. Friend on her work and I urge her to resist the evidence provided by those organisations and by people temptations from the Sri Lankan Government lobby whom I respect, including the many organisations that I that is in Westminster Hall today and trying to claim have just named and my own constituents. that all is well in Sri Lanka when the reality is that it In fact, I would like to take this opportunity to give certainly is not. Furthermore, holding the Commonwealth an apology to my constituents because in 2008 and conference in the country would be an endorsement of 2009, when they told me that cluster bombs were being the Sri Lankan Government’s policies on the Tamil dropped on their relatives by a democratically elected people, and would be extremely damaging to the cause Government and that tens of thousands of people were of human rights, to the image of Sri Lanka and indeed being herded into a tiny area, I did not believe them to the prospect of a peaceful future for the country. immediately; it was only when they became more desperate and told me more that I began to believe them. The Siobhain McDonagh: I thank my hon. Friend for his problem is that too many of the institutions that we intervention and I will obviously take his views on respect did not believe them either and did not accept board. what they were saying, which is precisely why we are in the position that we are in now. Mr Thomas: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way again. As she knows, I had the privilege of David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): I being a Minister in the Department for International can thoroughly understand the hon. Lady’s approach to Development during the last Government. As a result, I this whole debate. It is on a very emotive subject, and saw the private assessments of the situation in Sri more to the point there have been atrocities committed Lanka, the type of which the Minister now has the on both sides—that is evident. However, I say to her opportunity to see. What was clear then was the scale of that we are now years ahead from where we were. My the human rights abuses that were being perpetrated. I hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) do not think that we knew then the level of detail that is living proof of reconciliation—after 600 years—here has come out since, but we certainly knew that the in this House. Sri Lankan Government—through their military and paramilitary police, for example—were perpetrating We should move on. As I say, I understand where you considerable human rights abuses. are coming from and I also understand what you have That was part of the reason why Britain led in said has happened. I think that everybody in this Chamber Europe on the withdrawal of the GSP plus trading accepts that there have been some irregularities in Sri Lanka, arrangements—the generalised scheme of preferences— to say the least. But we are at a point now where we which signalled our concern about human rights. My must move on, we must help Sri Lanka to improve and hon. Friend is rightly demanding that this Government we must have reconciliation. I have been to Rwanda and show the same commitment as the last Government in I have seen what has happened there. The perpetrators demanding action by the Sri Lankan Government. It is of war crimes there are back in their own communities a pity that we have not yet heard cross-party support for and being productive. the aspiration for our Government to get a bit tougher If you go to Sri Lanka, and I am sure that the with the Sri Lankan Government. Government there will invite you, and probably have invited you already, you will see what progress has been Siobhain McDonagh: I totally agree with my hon. made— Friend’s comments. Although I completely understand the duty of any Government—most importantly during Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): Order. Thank a recession—to travel to gain more trade and support, I you, Mr Morris. Interventions on another Member’s ask the Minister to consider whether that is appropriate speech should be brief. Also, I remind new Members, in the case of Sri Lanka. who have now been in the House for more than two I say that because the last thing that the international years, that they should not use the word “you” to refer community needs right now, after the failings of the to another Member in the Chamber. past few years, is for Governments such as our own to 9WH Sri Lanka8 JANUARY 2013 Sri Lanka 10WH put the pursuit of profit ahead of the responsibility to would be delighted to make an unfettered, unhindered protect. The ongoing humanitarian crisis in Syria and visit to Sri Lanka so that I could go wherever I wished the developing situation in the Democratic Republic of to go, ask whatever questions I wished to ask and see the Congo—two countries that I have never been to—both whatever I needed to see. In that spirit, I look forward, show why we need to be strong. A credible and robust in my role as the chairman of the all-party group on approach to international relations by the UK, and Tamils, to me and my deputy chairman receiving such more widely by the international community through an invite, but I will not hold my breath. the UN, is vital. When the UN internal review was You will be pleased to hear, Mr Hollobone, that I am published in November, Ban Ki-moon said: not going to repeat what has been said and that I want “Our obligation to all humanity is to overcome our setbacks, to look at different aspects of this issue. It is easy to say learn from our mistakes, strengthen our responses, and act that one should forget the past, but if we do, we predict meaningfully and effectively for the future.” what will happen in the future. Should we forget Auschwitz, However, I am very much afraid that the international Rwanda or the atrocities committed in Northern Ireland? community would rather move on and pretend that No, we should not. That would be an insult to the these events in Sri Lanka never happened, just as it memories of the people who lost their lives on all sides, turned a blind eye while the atrocities in the country and that is not acceptable. were taking place. If we are not strong now, we will If we are to move on, there must be reconciliation abdicate our moral authority over Sri Lanka. Regimes and true justice for all. It is not my role as a non-Sri Lankan such as those in Syria and DRC will see that there is and a non-Tamil to say who was or was not responsible. nothing to lose and that justice will not be served. Anyone who has watched “Sri Lanka’s Killing Fields” We have a responsibility to ensure that the international or listened to independent evidence knows that atrocities community’s failures in Sri Lanka are addressed. were committed, and people need to be brought to Accountability and reconciliation must take place. When justice. Simply saying, “It wasn’t us who did it” is not the 22nd session of the UN’s Human Rights Council acceptable. Someone took out women and children, commences next month, our Government should take a someone raped people and someone interned people. lead. The issue of whether Sri Lanka has complied with Someone has not said where missing children are, when previous resolutions on accountability and reconciliation relatives in the Tamil diaspora around the world want should be a priority. The UN’s HRC, with Britain to the to know what has happened to their families. fore, must be prepared to take urgent action to initiate credible, independent investigations in Sri Lanka. For Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): I congratulate the the sake of other civilians around the world who are hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain under threat from their own Government, we have a McDonagh) on securing the debate. Is my hon. Friend responsibility to be strong. We should tell Sri Lanka in aware that there are nearly 94,000 internally displaced no uncertain terms that we cannot support its hosting Tamils without proper facilities, following the terrible the Commonwealth summit while its reputation is under tragedy that took place a few years ago? a cloud. We have a duty to protect, and we cannot fulfil that responsibility by continuing to be weak, weak, Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): Order. Those who weak. are listed to speak should bear in mind that they will have a turn. By making an intervention, they will just Several hon. Members rose— knock somebody else off the end. Please can we restrain ourselves so that we can get everybody in? Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): Order. Seven Mr Scott: Thank you, Mr Hollobone. Can I have Members contacted me before the debate seeking to 30 seconds back for that? speak, and another Member has contacted me from the Floor. In a moment, I will call the first speaker, Lee All I really want to say is that I want justice for the Scott, followed by Barry Gardiner. With Members’ Tamil people and for all Sri Lankans. For that to consent, I propose that the running order will then be happen, however, the UN must play its role. Over a Robert Halfon, Ian Paisley, James Wharton, Jeremy number of years, it let down the Tamil people and Corbyn, Aidan Burley and Simon Hughes. Personally, I allowed things to happen that should never have been am keen for all those Members to contribute, but if they allowed. are to do that, Members will need to keep their remarks Mr Thomas: I note the Chair’s comments about the to within five minutes; if they run over, the last speakers time, and I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for will not be called. I propose to call the Opposition giving way. Does he share the view of my hon. Friend Front-Bench spokesman at 10.40 am and the Minister the Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain at 10.50 am. McDonagh) that it would be wrong for Britain to attend the Commonwealth summit in Sri Lanka unless 10 am there is a dramatic change in the situation on the Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con): I congratulate the ground? hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain Mr Scott: I hope the Minister will address the issues McDonagh) on securing this vital debate. that have been raised— Perhaps I can prevent any interventions and save some time by saying that I, too, have not visited Sri Lanka: Mr Thomas: Where do you stand? someone who is criticised for everything they say because none of it suits the Sri Lankan Government is hardly Mr Scott: Where do I stand? I am sorry, Mr Hollobone. likely to be taken to Sri Lanka and shown what they The hon. Gentleman and I should not be having a want to see in an uninhibited way. Like the hon. Lady, I conversation across the room. I apologise for that, as I 11WH Sri Lanka8 JANUARY 2013 Sri Lanka 12WH

[Mr Scott] negotiations that were going on at the time. I was partly responsible for Anton Balasingham coming here with am sure he does. Where do I stand? I want to see his wife, Adele. I also went to Sri Lanka and met all the reconciliation and justice before any such thing happens. parties there. I think that is clear. When I was a Minister in Northern Ireland, I invited In my final 20 seconds, I should say that the Tamil Mahinda Rajapaksa to dinner there to discuss speaking people have suffered, and their diaspora suffers. There to the communities in Northern Ireland to see exactly must be justice for all, but most importantly, at the how reconciliation could be achieved and how a country UN’s meetings in March, I would like to hear what the could move on. At that stage, I hoped he would go back Sri Lankan Government will do to ensure that an to his country to try to implement some of those ideals, international inquiry shows what has happened and but he did not: he went back and turned Sri Lanka into who is responsible so that those involved are brought to a kleptocracy, in which the Rajapaksa family controls justice. I have gone five seconds over, Mr Hollobone, so absolutely everything. How is it that the President’s I apologise. brother, Gotabaya, is Secretary of Defence? Another of his brothers, Basil, is Minister of Economic Development. 10.5 am Chamal, the third brother, is Speaker of the Parliament. They have carved up the country between them and Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): I thank you for there is absolutely no economic freedom. calling me to speak in this important debate, Mr Hollobone. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham If we take the Commonwealth Heads of Government and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh). She knows more or the Commonwealth Business Council there, what and has researched more than anybody in the House, will we be doing? We will be putting money into the and she has done more to keep this issue at the forefront pockets not of Sri Lankan people, but of one family: of its debates and of the Government’s mind, as they the Rajapaksas. Anybody who pretends to be part of consider their obligations to the international community. this debate without acknowledging what is going on in that country currently is fooling themselves. Those Members I arrived here this morning with a speech that detailed on the Government Benches may or may not have gone many of the things in the UN internal report and the to Sri Lanka, but if they have, they have not looked into way in which the UN had looked at its own failure. It is the detail of what is happening in that land, because it is important to understand that it was extraordinarily corruption and it must end. The Government of this courageous of Ban Ki-moon to establish a report looking country should not allow Her Majesty the Queen to set at the UN’s failure properly to protect people and to foot on Sri Lankan soil. intervene at the right time in the war in Sri Lanka. Although it was a courageous report, however, it now 10.10 am needs to be followed up. It highlighted many of the actions that took place at the time, but the international Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): It is a pleasure to community must now see whether the reconciliation serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone, this that we all wish for has actually taken place. morning. My hon. Friend spoke of the LLRC. At the time, The hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain many of us said it was a smokescreen intended to avoid McDonagh) has set out three compelling arguments, having the independent international review that was but before I go on to those, I want to say that I have being called for. However, the Minister said, “Let’s give never been to Sri Lanka. I would not want to go to it space. Let’s see what it comes up with. Let’s see Sri Lanka as it is currently constituted, just as I would whether it actually delivers. If it does, we should judge it not want to visit President Assad or the President of on that basis.” Well, it has now produced its report, but Iran—because I would be going to a bloodstained nation. it has not delivered. The international community, from First, with every day that passes, it is clear that there the UN right through to Amnesty International, has is terrible persecution of the Tamils, especially of students, acknowledged and documented the LLRC’s failings. women, journalists and families. Secondly, because of Initially, the commission made absolutely no mention our historic relationship and our economic ties, we can of war crimes; subsequently, under pressure, the Sri make a difference. I welcome what the Minister is doing Lankan Government made further moves to switch the to exert pressure on Sri Lanka’s rulers. Thirdly, the international community’s focus. When the Minister international community must show the Sri Lankan sums up, I would ask him to be true to his words in our regime that there will be consequences if it does not previous debate: we should judge the Sri Lankan respect and implement the recommendations of the Government by their actions. On any international Lessons Learnt and Reconciliation Commission. standard, they have failed. Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): Does my I said I had come with a speech that I had prepared. hon. Friend share my disappointment at the tone of the What I was not prepared for, however, was the schoolboy debate so far? Should not we all agree that both sides nonsense from the Government side—“Oh well, have must be held accountable for the crimes that are committed you ever been to Sri Lanka?”—and the sniggering when and that there has to be a genuine process of reconciliation? my hon. Friend said that, no, of course she had not Until that starts, the Government need to think carefully been there. Does that in any way reduce the value and about the level of representation at the Commonwealth the quality of her research? Absolutely not. Heads of Government meeting. I wish I had not been to Sri Lanka, because I could have stood with my hon. Friend, but I have been there. Robert Halfon: I agree that it is important that we A decade or so ago, the then Foreign Office Minister, have a debate on both sides, but my firm view is that the my right hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr Hain), emphasis must be to expose what has really been going asked me to become involved in the second tier of the on in Sri Lanka and how the Tamils have been maltreated. 13WH Sri Lanka8 JANUARY 2013 Sri Lanka 14WH

Like the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden, I Clearly the Tamil Tigers are no longer a threat to the believe strongly in the responsibility to protect. As the Sri Lankan Government and can no longer be used as Foreign and Commonwealth Office acknowledges on an excuse, but persecution continues. The excuse of its website, after the civil war ended in 2009, approximately security was used as a cover for genocide, and it is now 300,000 Tamil civilians were displaced or caged in being used for an attempt to wipe out the inheritance of internment camps. The FCO website states: the Tamil-speaking minority. The UN, as the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden said, has a responsibility “The Sri Lankan Prevention of Terrorism Act permits prolonged detention without charge or trial.” to protect if a regime is abusing its own people. If we can put peaceful, legitimate but tough pressure on We know that that power is routinely abused, most Sri Lanka, whether through sanctions or a boycott of recently with the detention of four Jaffna University the Commonwealth summit, that is what we must do. students just before Christmas. They were locked away without trial or any meaningful right of appeal. The 10.16 am regime also forbids the free movement of people, especially journalists, in many Tamil areas. Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): On my journey to the House this morning, I drove through the memorial At the end of November 2012, an estimated 94,000 gates near the Mall. The words “Sri Lanka” are carved people were still internally displaced. In November in granite on those gates to remind us that the Indian 2011, the UN Committee against Torture even reported subcontinent, during the two great world wars, gave that the Sri Lankan military behave as if they are above 5 million volunteers to this nation to defend freedom. the law. In 2011, Sri Lanka was ranked fourth highest in When we hear the aggression from Argentina over the the entire planet for cases of unsolved journalist murders. Falklands this week, we are reminded that the only Tens of thousands of Tamil men and women continue country that stood with us in the international community to live without security, shelter or independence. in the original attempt to take back the Falklands was Sri Lanka. When a country that has supported us in the I believe that Britain can put peaceful and diplomatic past comes under pressure, we should not kick it in the pressure on Sri Lanka. We are already Sri Lanka’s teeth. We stretch out the hand of forbearance and say, largest trading partner, their second largest investor “We will help you through the difficult, post-conflict behind China and their main source of western tourism. situation that you are clearly in. We will give you our If the UN were to move towards economic sanctions experience and our help. We will not give you our under the responsibility to protect, British involvement hatred and our anger.” That is an important lesson that would have a huge impact on the Sri Lankan economy. we, in a nation part of which is in a post-conflict It is very rare for me to disagree with the hon. Member situation, should recognise. for North Antrim (Ian Paisley), but the Government need seriously to consider, as the Canadians have done, I have visited Sri Lanka on a number of occasions, boycotting the Commonwealth event. I do not believe both as a private individual and with constituents who that appeasement works. If the Government said that had business there, as well as on a cross-party parliamentary there would be a boycott unless things dramatically trip. My experience was very different from what I have improved, that would have a significant impact on the heard from propagandists not in Sri Lanka. The people Sri Lankan regime. on the ground gave a very different message from the out-of-touch one that I have heard from the self-appointed On the responsibility to protect, the lesson, as we diaspora, both in Canada and here in the United Kingdom. have seen in recent years, is that in almost every case I have visited Jaffna, the most disputed part of Sri Lanka where the UN has shouldered its responsibility and in the north. There I saw new housing settlements, with stepped in, such as in Iraqi Kurdistan in the 1990s or Tamils living in them. I had tea with some of those more recently in Libya in 2011, catastrophe has been families, whose interests are fishing and farming. They averted and it has led to economic growth and the did not talk to me about the past, even though they had beginnings of democratic reform. Where the United opportunity to do so. Indeed, when I raised the past—I Nations has done nothing, such as in Syria, things have was with them on my own—they wanted to talk about worsened. their future, their children and their new housing settlements, We have to use everything at our disposal to make which were supported by money given by our country clear to Sri Lanka that it can no longer behave like a through the EU to help rebuild their country. They rogue nation. Concrete steps have to be taken to demilitarise wanted to talk about moving forward. I have met both the north and east, civil administration should be restored Tamil and Sinhalese families, and their united wish was and Tamils should be given their basic human rights: to present a picture of hope for their country, not a the rights to life and a fair trial, freedom of expression, picture of division. It was a community that wanted to movement and assembly, property rights and the rule of move forward. They did not want to hear the international law. Sri Lanka should publish a list of all prisoners and community talking about what happened in the past; where they are being held. The International Committee they wanted the international community to help them of the Red Cross must have access to all detention to move to a better future. centres and a neutral commission should be appointed On one occasion, two of my guides were a Tamil by the UN to safeguard property rights in Tamil areas gentleman and a Sinhalese gentleman who had been at and all resettlement programmes. Sri Lanka’s Lessons war with each other. At the end of my visit, in tears they Learnt and Reconciliation Commission should implement embraced each other, and they spoke about how they the recommendations made in its interim report. Above were now new brothers in a new land. Whenever I all, Sri Lanka must comply with the recommendations raised with them issues that I had heard in the propaganda of the report by the UN panel of experts and arrive at a in the United Kingdom, they could not understand durable justice for the Tamils. them. They said that they bore no resemblance to their 15WH Sri Lanka8 JANUARY 2013 Sri Lanka 16WH

[Ian Paisley] I have been to Sri Lanka a number of times, and the visits are all declared in the Register of Members’ reality on the ground. In many aspects, Sri Lanka has Financial Interests. I have gone there with colleagues, made more measurable gains post-conflict than Northern some of whom are here today. What worries me is how Ireland. That is what I have seen on the ground, and we much misinformation is out there about what is happening should recognise it and stop the suffocation of a country on the ground. My hon. Friend the Member for Ilford by its past and help Sri Lanka to move forward to a North (Mr Scott), who follows matters in Sri Lanka better future. keenly, has a different position to mine, but it is a I took a day out and spent it with the leader of Tamil genuinely felt one. He was absolutely right to say that National Alliance, Mr Sampanthan. I spoke to him and we must not forget the past, but we must not misinterpret his party colleagues at length, and I waited for him or misrepresent it either. because I wanted to hear from him at first hand, without A problem that Sri Lanka has faced in the debate in his being pushed or prodded into some of the difficult the western world, in this Parliament, in the media and issues about the past. He did not raise with me the issue in other places across the globe is that, for a variety of of the disappeared; he did not take time to raise with reasons, too many people try to change what happened me the issue of war crimes; he did not take time to talk in the past, to change the accepted facts of what went about routine torture, in his country, of his people. He on. The reality is that a lot of what we see is not based had a politician with him from this nation and he did on facts or in reality. I have raised the point before in the not want to talk about those things. In fact, he actively House that even the Darusman report, which preceded applauded the Government, whom he opposes. He the UN report that has led to the debate today, specifically applauded them on their investment in the country—in states, in paragraph 53: parts of the north—and he said that the most effective “This account should not be taken as proven facts, and any thing that many of his people required was practical effort to determine specific liabilities would require a higher help to get bicycles and other tools to help them to work threshold.” and run their country. That was the message of the man who is leading the opposition. It is made clear that the report establishes a narrative that can be used to work forwards but that none of the If people took the time to speak to the active politicians data—for example, on the numbers of casualties—should on the ground who are representatives of their community, be quoted as specific figures. The facts on the ground they might have a slightly different perspective than that regarding the provision of food and medical supplies in some of the propaganda that we have seen and heard. are starkly different to some of the evidence given by I urge the Minister to appeal publicly today to Sampanthan unnamed sources to the expert committee that put to stop his boycott of the political process, to lead his together the report. people and his party, and to join with other parties in the parliamentary select committee of Sri Lanka to find I am conscious of the time, so I just want to draw the a political solution to the problems. We learnt the lesson House’s attention to a few areas in which progress is the hard way. being made in Sri Lanka. Most of the 300,000 internally People find a political solution by engaging in politics, displaced persons have now been resettled. I visited not by asking for a boycott or for the international Menik farm, one of the welfare camps set up to house community to do their work for them—they do it the huge numbers of people displaced by conflict in themselves. I appeal to our Government to say to January of last year. There were about 6,000 people left, Sampanthan, “Lead your people and do not boycott and the camp has now closed and the people have gone the process any longer.” Politics, not a boycott, will home. They have been able to do so because demining work. The international community will not solve operations have proceeded at an amazing pace, with Sri Lanka’s problems. It will be the people of Sri Lanka, more than 900,000 mines and unexploded ordnance living in Sri Lanka, who will fix the problems of Sri Lanka, having been cleared, primarily by the Sri Lankan army and we should actively encourage them in that. The but also by the HALO Trust with support from UK aid, biggest mistake that this Government could make would and I congratulate the UK on its contribution. be to send the message to Sri Lanka that they were More than 120,000 houses have been constructed in going to pull out of the Commonwealth talks later this the north and the east, nearly 600 child soldiers have year and punish a country that needs help, not more been rehabilitated and more than 10,000 adult combatants persecution. have been rehabilitated or reintegrated into Sri Lankan society. Some 900 Tamil speakers have been recruited Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): If our remaining into the police force in the north and east, and that is four speakers take no more than four minutes each, important in building trust in a community that does they will all get in. They are James Wharton, Jeremy not have historic trust in its Government and the Corbyn, Aidan Burley and Simon Hughes. organisations that represent it. Investment is key, as is infrastructure, so that the economy can grow and people 10.23 am can improve their lives. James Wharton (Stockton South) (Con): It is a pleasure When I went to Sri Lanka with the charity International to follow the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Alert, we visited a group of young Tamil people in the Paisley), who speaks passionately, with experience of Vanni, and they talked about jobs and employment post-conflict life and of rebuilding communities after a prospects, about what they were going to do and what very difficult period. He gives us all cause to pause and they wanted to do. They talked about the challenges to reflect on what the debate is really about. There was a that they faced at home and about how they wanted to great deal that I wanted to say, but as I have a very short get education and the cost of education. They talked time, I will significantly cut down my comments. about the same things that young people in colleges in 17WH Sri Lanka8 JANUARY 2013 Sri Lanka 18WH my constituency talk to me about; they share some of for Tamil people in Sri Lanka, the war will return in a the same problems. They wanted to look forward and different form at a later stage. It is not a question of the go forward. Sri Lankan Government claiming victory over the Tamil The tone of debate in the House too often worries people and the Tigers, as they have done; it has to be a me, because we focus on what we can do to punish the question of their perception of the future of that country, Government of Sri Lanka, whether by the removal of otherwise in 10, 20 or 30 years’ time, if any of us are still the generalised system of preferences or the UK’s pulling here, we will be debating the same thing again: yet out of the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting. another massacre of Tamil people and yet another wave Such things will not damage the Government of Sri Lanka; of asylum seekers from Sri Lanka trying to flee to a they will damage progress towards peace and the prosperity place of safety. of the people who live in Sri Lanka. The tone of the I hope that the Minister is able to tell us that the debate here needs to change. We need to work constructively Government will be robust on the Commonwealth Heads with the Government of Sri Lanka to put pressure of Government meeting and will play a robust role at where it is due and, where we can, to deliver improvement. the UN Human Rights Council next month to show that the UN, the Human Rights Council and the human 10.27 am rights of the Tamil people matter in bringing about Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I will be long-term peace in Sri Lanka. brief, Mr Hollobone, so that the other Members can get in. I compliment you on your chairing of the debate and on your announcing in advance the line of speakers. 10.31 am That is helpful, and it is a good precedent for Westminster Mr Aidan Burley (Cannock Chase) (Con): Many Hall debates. speakers this morning have started by declaring whether I compliment my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham they have visited Sir Lanka, and I intervened on the and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) and the hon. Member hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain for Ilford North (Mr Scott) on their contributions and McDonagh) to ask whether she has done so, because I on their work within the all-party group for Tamils and visited Sri Lanka in July 2012 and spent eight days in support of the Tamil diaspora. The right hon. Member travelling all over the country. I did not just fly into for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) Colombo; I went to the north, the east and the south. I and I have been involved in issues regarding the Tamil went to Jaffna and Kilinochchi, Trincomalee, Kandy people and Sri Lanka ever since 1983, when we were and Hambantota. I went to all the rural areas, not just both first elected to the House, and I have never forgotten to the towns and cities. the huge demonstration that took place in July of that year in London because of the problems that there then I went to the Jaffna teaching hospital and discussed were in Sri Lanka. There has been a litany of human the lack of medical equipment with some of the doctors. rights abuses in Sri Lanka for the past 30 years and I went to the chamber of commerce and discussed beyond. inward investment with business leaders. I visited resettlement projects in Ariyalai and mine clearing in It is not an accident that there is a large Tamil Kilinochchi with the HALO Trust, which, as my hon. diaspora in London. Many Tamil people came to this Friend the Member for Stockton South (James Wharton) country to seek a place of safety because of the civil mentioned, is partly funded through the Department war in Sri Lanka in the 1980s and the years before. I pay for International Development. tribute to the diaspora community for pulling together. It supported the hunger strikes that took place out here I met the President in Kandy. I also met, in Parliament square and mobilised 200,000 people to Mr Sampanthan, a leader of the opposition, for several march through London in support of the rights and hours in Trincomalee—I recognise the comments of the survival of the Tamil community in Sri Lanka. Mobilising hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley)—and I 200,000—almost the entire diaspora community—was remember him telling us that he wanted a bicycle for a remarkable achievement; but, disgracefully, the British every one of his people, which is his main priority. media routinely and almost totally ignored it. They I have detailed my trip because I strongly believe that were more concerned about traffic disruption in Parliament people can only speak authoritatively and honestly square than about human rights in Sri Lanka. about a subject if they have first-hand experience, seeing I recognise that things have changed and that things things with their own eyes and forming their own have to move on. There has to be a peace process, impressions, rather than just watching a Channel 4 reconciliation and a reckoning with the past, which we documentary. After all, would a person buy a house just are looking at to move forward. because someone told them it was nice, or would they My two essential points are that the UN report of want to see the property first hand? Would a person last November specifically refers to the shelling of hospitals move to an area just because someone said it was a nice and civilian areas by the Sri Lankan armed forces and place to live, or would they want to visit the area first? the way in which UN staff were driven away from the Everywhere I went on my eight-day trip to Sri Lanka areas of conflict in 2008. I hope those issues will be last year, I saw the same thing first hand: Sinhalese, seriously examined at the UN Human Rights Council Tamils and Muslims living harmoniously with each meeting next month, which I hope to attend, as I have other, getting on with their lives and rebuilding their attended many Human Rights Council events country. I saw the different communities and faiths If we do not consider those issues, if we do not ensure living beside one another after their horrendous civil the closure of what I do not refer to as welfare camps—at war. I saw Sinhalese boys and Tamil girls playing together the end of the conflict, they were more like concentration in the playgrounds of the schools that we visited. That is camps—and if we do not address rights and opportunities why I wanted to speak in this debate. The UK should be 19WH Sri Lanka8 JANUARY 2013 Sri Lanka 20WH

[Mr Aidan Burley] square pretty much every day, and I arranged to go with them to the White House to try to get the US to press helping Sri Lanka, our former colony, to rebuild itself. the UN and the Sri Lankan Government. They met the British politicians should understand Sri Lanka’s Commonwealth secretary-general and the leader of the reconciliation and help it to demine, so that communities European Foreign Affairs Council. I had a conversation can move back to their own lands. I saw that happening with the UN and the Tamils, and the UN was unable to with my own eyes; I saw the minefields being cleared do anything; it failed abysmally. The UN agreed in 2005 through the HALO Trust, and I saw houses being that there should be a responsibility to protect, but it rebuilt and crops being grown on the old minefields. did not do any protecting. The UN pulled out, which That is constructive. We saw HSBC and Marks and was absolutely scandalous and shameful. The UN proved Spencer in Sri Lanka. I learnt that the software that itself to be a totally ineffective organisation at that time. runs the UK stock market is based in Sri Lanka. My interest now is to ensure that the UN learns those All that is positive—it is about jobs and livelihoods—and lessons, with the UK’s help, and that the Sri Lankan we should be having a debate on encouraging trade to Government learns those lessons, too, because Sri Lanka Sri Lanka. British politicians should be leading business is not yet a wonderful democracy. Sri Lanka is nepotistic, trips and delegations of British companies to Sri Lanka as has been described. Disappearances have not been to encourage Sri Lankan and British businesses to work explained. Sri Lanka has one of the worst records for together. Britain has the second-highest number of tourists journalistic freedom in the world on all objective indices. to Sri Lanka—a country that desperately needs tourists’ Assassinations have happened, and no one has been pounds. I do not believe this debate will help that brought to trial for them. Not all people are allowed to rebuilding process; it is a negative debate that perpetuates go back to their own community, and I say that not old myths and stereotypes and is based on narrow because I am pro-Tamil and anti-Sinhala—I am a member interest groups in the UK that have their own agendas. of both all-party groups—but because, so far, minorities The hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) have not had an equal opportunity to play a part in Sri said that he was astonished to see the Sri Lankan Lanka. Government lobbying here. I know lobbyists for the I know the commitment of my hon. Friend the Sri Lankan Government. My constituency is 99% white, Minister to peacekeeping and bridge-building from our and there is no diaspora. I have no candle to hold for work together over the years. the Sri Lankan Government; I am just recounting the Given that the UN set up its panel of experts, which first-hand impressions that I witnessed for myself by reported to Ban Ki-moon in November 2012, and given bothering to go to the country. The hon. Member for that the UN Human Rights Council agreed a resolution Mitcham and Morden should go to Sri Lanka and in Geneva—we supported that resolution, which will speak to the people of Sri Lanka, not to the people of come back for assessment this spring—what are we Mitcham and Morden, and listen to what they have to doing to ensure that the UN responsibility to protect say. I found a country at peace with itself. That is what means something in future? That responsibility does we should be debating and supporting: helping Sri Lanka not yet mean something, and an amendment to the way to build a better future for itself, rather than letting that the Security Council and the UN work is needed. extremists in the UK divide it. What will we do in Geneva in the next few weeks to ensure that the accountability that was sought is 10.35 am implemented? What do we do to ensure that the Sri Lankan Government are held to account for war crimes? There Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) were war crimes on both sides, but Governments have a (LD): I thank you for your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. particular responsibility not to commit war crimes, and I appreciate the initiation of this debate by the hon. they need to be held to account. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh). What will we do about the Commonwealth Heads of I remind some colleagues, who I think have forgotten, Government meeting? It should not have been agreed to that the subject of the debate is Sri Lanka and the UN hold it in Colombo. Unless Colombo shows that it is responsibility to protect. As the hon. Member for Islington moving in a fundamentally different direction, the UK North (Jeremy Corbyn) said, I have taken an interest in should not support the Commonwealth, which has the subject during all my time in the House—not because been weak on the issue, or endorse the Commonwealth’s I have a significant number of Sri Lankan, Tamil or support for the regime by its presence in Colombo. That Sinhalese constituents, but because I am a human rights would not be the right approach for the British Government. lawyer and I think minority rights need to be protected. I hope that the Minister will be robust. We need Britain I have been to Sri Lanka, and I paid for myself—I to be robust, in the interests of everybody in Sri Lanka had political meetings some years ago. I was not allowed and of a successful future for Sri Lanka as a whole. to go everywhere I wanted to go, particularly in the north. I regularly engage with Sri Lankan Ministers 10.40 am and high commissioners, sometimes very frustratingly, Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): Mr Hollobone, when they have been in this country. I am a co-founder I join in congratulating you on how you have chaired of the all-party group on conflict issues. I have worked this debate and managed to call all the speakers. I also with the Royal Commonwealth Society and the Elders congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham to ensure that young people from both communities and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) on securing this have gone to Sri Lanka. debate. I have participated with her in previous debates I found the civil war one of the most depressing, on Sri Lanka, and she is not just passionate but frightening and unhappy periods of my time in the knowledgeable about the situation there, despite not House. I was with the Tamil community out on Parliament having visited the country. 21WH Sri Lanka8 JANUARY 2013 Sri Lanka 22WH

It is interesting that the hon. Member for Cannock “Differing perceptions among member states and the Secretariat Chase (Mr Burley) discussed the eight-day trip to Sri Lanka of the concept’s meaning and use had become so contentious as in July, which was arranged by the Sri Lankan high to nullify its potential value. Indeed, making references to the commission. Nine Conservative MPs went on that trip, responsibility to protect was seen as more likely to weaken rather than strengthen UN action.” plus the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley). I certainly was not invited. As I am the Opposition The panel concluded that there is an spokesperson on Sri Lanka, one might think that I would have been the first port of call if the high “urgent need for the UN to update its strategy for engagement with member states in situations where civilian populations…are commission genuinely wanted it to be a cross-party trip. not protected”. It is obviously useful and important to visit countries and see the situation on the ground, but the experience Will the Minister outline the Foreign and Commonwealth on such trips and the lessons learned tend to depend on Office’s current interpretation of the responsibility to what one is shown and who is the host. This debate has protect doctrine? What discussions have the Government amply demonstrated how going to see things on the had with international colleagues about the internal ground does not necessarily give the whole picture. review and how the situation can move forward?

Dr Offord: Will the shadow Minister give way? During the past year, the final report of the Lessons Learnt and Reconciliation Commission has been published, but as has been widely acknowledged, it failed to address Kerry McCarthy: I will not, because it is important the credible allegations of war crimes and crimes against that we give the Minister time to respond. I want to use humanity committed by both sides in the conflict, as less than my time if possible. highlighted by the UN panel of experts. The LLRC’s Like the Government, we welcome the report of the composition and narrow terms of reference were deeply internal review panel on UN action in Sri Lanka, and flawed, as is borne out in its report, which fails even to we note the panel’s conclusion that the Secretary-General mention torture, despite the fact that the UN Committee took a courageous step in commissioning the review, against Torture noted “continued and consistent allegations” but that in itself is not enough; we must learn lessons of its widespread use. from it. We must not just focus on the extent to which the Sri Lankan people were let down by the international The LLRC was in no way adequate, but some of its community; we must see how we can move forward. recommendations offered a foundation on which we The temptation with any review is to focus on the could build, providing that they are properly implemented. past. We should not forget the atrocities committed on In accordance with the UN Human Rights Council Sri Lanka’s killing fields, the tens of thousands who resolution passed in March, the Sri Lankan Government needlessly lost their lives during the civil war or the developed their national action plan, about which I many other civilians who have been affected. I do not have asked the Minister before, but there remain few support calls to draw a line under those atrocities; I do signs of meaningful progress, as noted by many countries not think that the time has come to say that we can now and non-governmental organisations during Sri Lanka’s move on and forget what happened. Many people have universal periodic review towards the end of last year. not been held to account for the crimes that they What contact has the UK had with the Sri Lankan committed, and we must still focus on that. I thought it authorities since the periodic review? Will the UK set quite shocking that one Government Member referred out identifiable goals that can be assessed at the UN to irregularities in the past. They were much more than human rights plenary session in March, which must irregularities. It is also shocking that people cast doubt take the opportunity to reassure the people of Sri Lanka on the evidence, such as was shown in the Channel 4 that the UN can help them? programme, about what happened in Sri Lanka. It is The year 2013 could prove to be a crossroads for well documented by international organisations. Sri Lanka, but the UN is not the only institution with a As the head of Amnesty International’s UN New pivotal role to play. Many Members have mentioned the York office stated, the review is Commonwealth Heads of Government summit later “a wake-up call for UN member states that have not pushed hard this year. The UK’s stance to date has been ambiguous enough for an independent international investigation into alleged compared to, for example, that of the Canadian Prime war crimes”. Minister, who stated unequivocally that, unless there Amnesty warned that there is “no evidence” that were clear signs of improvement in Sri Lanka’s human “the Sri Lankan Government’s lack of will to protect civilians or rights record, he would boycott the summit. Is the UK account for very serious violations…has changed”. Prime Minister’s attendance at CHOGM provisional? If The most pertinent conclusions on which we must so, what conditions must the Sri Lankan Government now focus are that the report’s recommendations provide meet if the UK is to be present? “an urgent and compelling platform for action” We must also consider the UK’s duty to protect. Will and that the the Minister update us on the Foreign Office’s discussions with the Home Office regarding deportations to Sri Lanka, “UN’s failure to adequately respond to events like those that occurred in Sri Lanka should not happen again.” which other hon. Members have mentioned? Finally, given the UN’s clear failures to protect civilians and Many have been shocked by the review’s finding that recognise the Government’s human rights abuses and UN staff the shortcomings of the LLRC, does the Minister agree “did not perceive the prevention of killing civilians as their that the people of Sri Lanka deserve an independent responsibility”. international investigation to provide not only answers On the concept of a responsibility to protect, the review and accountability but a clear way forward for their warned: country? 23WH Sri Lanka8 JANUARY 2013 Sri Lanka 24WH

10.47 am role in relation to the conclusion of events in Sri Lanka. We welcome the report by the panel of experts appointed The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign by the UN Secretary-General in 2011, which found and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt): Iaddmy credible allegations that both sides were involved in thanks to those of my colleagues, Mr Hollobone, for violations of international humanitarian law, and its your chairing of this debate. I also thank the hon. setting up its own independent internal report to consider Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) for her what happened with regard to the UN’s role. We agree brevity and her remarks. I start, as always, by congratulating that shortcomings were identified. In following that up, the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain we note that the UN has moved swiftly to put in place a McDonagh) on securing this debate. Her deep and lessons-learned programme overseen by a panel chaired committed interest in Sri Lankan issues is well known. I by the Deputy Secretary-General’s office. It is there that welcome the opportunity to state the Government’s we will make our contribution to how the UN is going position and the opportunity that she has once again to repair what it failed to do in relation to the responsibility provided the House to discuss the issue. to protect, and we will follow that panel’s progress I welcome the interventions of a number of colleagues closely. I expect that questions will be raised about that in this debate. They have been passionate, thoughtful over time. and honest. The difference of views expressed across We are committed to and support the concept of the Chamber emphasises the complexity of the issue. In responsibility to protect, which was supported by all an effort to defuse a little of the heat, may I say that, UN member states in 2005. The difficulty that was bearing in mind the history of the issue and who was in found in 2009 was that a pillar III responsibility-to-protect Government in 2009, a degree of humility in all parties response required the agreement of the UN Security is helpful? Hindsight is a wonderful thing. The contributions Council. It was clear at the time—former Ministers in of colleagues with personal experience of reconciliation this Chamber know this better than I—that there was in parts of the UK were particularly important in not widespread support in the wider international bringing to the surface some of the difficulties involved. community for a more assertive position towards the The UK’s relationship with Sri Lanka is long-standing, parties to the conflict. This turns out to have been a strong and based on close historical, cultural, educational, tragedy. The United Kingdom’s primary concerns during commercial and family ties that will not weaken. The the final offensive were to ensure unimpeded access by United Kingdom is fortunate to have a large Sri Lankan humanitarian agencies and compliance with international diaspora community, which contributes much to our humanitarian law, including investigations of allegations rich and diverse culture. Over the past couple of years, I of violations. The UK focused, therefore, on the parties’ have met regularly with Sri Lankan Ministers, obligations to protect the civilian population. parliamentarians from different parties and members of the diaspora in the United Kingdom. As has been Barry Gardiner: In the light of what he has just said, noted, in two weeks’ time, I will make my second visit to will the Minister comment on paragraph 15 of the the country. internal report? It says that there was The hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden suggested “concern that the moment that humanitarian organizations leave, that my visit might be taken as a vindication of the the Government will begin bombing Killinochchi town and that Government. I assure her and the House that judging the physical security of the civilian population will be at increased from experience over the past couple of years, my risk”. remarks are not always taken in that way by the It is implicit that there is safety by the UN organisation’s Government, who are entitled to see them as they wish. very presence and that there is supervision. I do not think that that is a particular risk. There are different ways of visiting a country. People Alistair Burt: Yes. As we have all said during the do not always have to go on a Government-sponsored debate, the UN is examining its processes carefully as it visit; non-governmental organisations are operating, finds fault in what it did in the past and emphasises the for example. People should declare everything and of importance of UN engagement in the most difficult course they must be on guard, no matter who takes circumstances. Of course, we see in Syria today how them on a visit. It is helpful to visit and get a picture, if difficult that has become. No doubt, the UN panel will it is possible to do so, although that does not preclude look carefully at how it failed to meet that obligation views from those who have not visited but know a great and what might be done in difficult circumstances in deal about the issue. future. The decades-long war in Sri Lanka, which ended in The LTTE is a brutal, ruthless organisation that 2009 with the defeat of the Liberation Tigers of Tamil rightly remains proscribed in the UK, but a military Eelam, devastated the country and deeply scarred its victory alone cannot deliver the stable, lasting peace all population. Sri Lankans deserve lasting peace and Sri Lankans deserve. Addressing events during the final reconciliation and where the United Kingdom and days of the conflict is important and the UK has international organisations, such as the UN, are able to consistently called for an independent investigation into encourage and support the process it is right to do so. allegations of violation of international humanitarian I want to deal with three elements that came out of law on both sides. There needs to be a more fundamental this debate: the situation of the UN; progress being approach that goes beyond accountability. Colleagues made in Sri Lanka; and issues to do with the have mentioned this in terms of the context of the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting. In essence, future of Sri Lanka being for Sri Lankans themselves I agree with and support the remarks made by the hon. and how they take this forward. Therefore, we support Member for Mitcham and Morden. It is right that the the view, widely held in Sri Lanka and outside, that UN has been through an intense process, examining its long-term peace can best be achieved through an inclusive 25WH Sri Lanka8 JANUARY 2013 Sri Lanka 26WH political settlement that addresses the underlying causes early this year for the implementation of LLRC of the conflict. Such a settlement must also take into recommendations, to be carried forward. It only covers account the legitimate grievances and aspirations of all about half of the LLRC recommendations. When I go Sri Lanka’s communities. to Sri Lanka in a couple of weeks, I will see if Sri Lanka On the progress that has been made, the Sri Lankan will consider implementing all the recommendations Government recognised that in appointing the LLRC, and, if so, how to take it forward. which submitted its report in December 2011 and It is too soon to talk about our attendance plans for made more than 200 recommendations, including calls the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting. for credible investigations of alleged judicial killings We will not move from that position for a period of and disappearances, demilitarisation of the north, time. Sri Lanka was scheduled to host the Commonwealth implementation of impartial land-dispute resolution Heads of Government meeting in 2011, but given ongoing mechanisms and protection of freedom of expression. concerns about the humanitarian and human rights Although we welcome the recommendations that were situation, the UK and other Commonwealth members made, as I said at the time, the Government’s view is did not support its bid. However, Commonwealth members that the report left gaps and unanswered questions on decided that Sri Lanka would host in 2013. To reopen alleged violations of international humanitarian law that decision would require a consensus of all member and human rights law. We were disappointed by the report’s states and I do not think that is likely. conclusions and recommendations on accountability. I have listened carefully to exchanges between hon. None the less, as colleagues have said, the recommendations, Members. The intensity of views and the sharp divide if implemented in full, would go a long way to achieving between colleagues emphasises how difficult and complex the reconciliation that we believe will achieve lasting the situation is. A decision on the location of CHOGM peace. is not for the UK; it is for the Commonwealth. The What progress has there been and, in answer to meeting will discuss many issues, not just Sri Lanka, but colleagues who have asked what we are looking for, as Sri Lanka well knows it will inevitably shine a spotlight what have we measured? The UK recognises and welcomes on the host country, demonstrating either its progress progress made in various areas. UK officials have visited or lack of it. It is up to Sri Lanka to choose what will be all nine provinces of Sri Lanka in the past 12 months seen. As the Foreign Secretary has said, we expect the and have seen much to welcome. The absence of conflict Sri Lankan Government to demonstrate that they uphold has brought greater security and opened up economic the values of the Commonwealth. development—the demining was mentioned by Colleagues have said that the UK should not let Her colleagues—with UK financial support, freeing up yet Majesty the Queen go to the Commonwealth Heads of more land for resettlement and agriculture. Rehabilitation Government meeting. It is important to clarify that she of thousands of ex-combatants, including child soldiers, attends that meeting as head of the Commonwealth, has allowed many individuals to integrate back into not the UK head of state. Her attendance is not a society. The majority of internally displaced persons decision for the UK Government. If she were to ask for have now moved out of camps, although there is still advice, it would be from all Commonwealth members. work to be done in ensuring that “permanent homes” Following the resolution of the conflict, it is clear means just that, and does not mean people being deposited that long-term reconciliation is an issue. The hon. Member in places that they came from. Troop numbers are well for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), perceptive as he below those in 2009. Although that is positive, there still often is, said that unless that is done the problem will remains more to be done to ensure that there is lasting come back at some stage to haunt everyone in Sri Lanka. peace and prosperity. The process of reconciliation is not easy. Some progress The March 2012 Human Rights Council resolution, has been made in implementing some of the supported by the UK and a number of member states, recommendations in the LLRC report. More needs to called on the Government of Sri Lanka to implement be done. The LLRC needs to be given time and good the LLRC recommendations and address alleged violations will must be there on all sides to see the process through. of international law. I assure hon. Members that we will Nothing has been swept under the carpet and we are be robust in pursuing that in the March 2013 council mindful of what has happened in the past and of the meeting. We wish that action plan, with deadlines from wishes of all Sri Lankans for the future. 27WH 8 JANUARY 2013 Female Genital Mutilation 28WH

Female Genital Mutilation Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): I am pleased that my hon. Friend has secured today’s debate. When I raised the issue of female genital mutilation and questioned 11 am the lack of prosecutions, the problem did not seem to be Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): It is at the Crown Prosecution Service end; the police were always a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, simply not referring cases to it. I think that there were Mr Hollobone, which I have done on many occasions. three cases in which the CPS had to make a decision on whether to prosecute, but it felt that there was not I am delighted to have secured this important debate enough evidence. Does he agree that the police also on what I believe to be a national scandal, with thousands need to make female genital mutilation a much greater of victims violated and failed every year. Although the priority? scandalous practice of female genital mutilation is shrouded in secrecy, the Government estimate that 20,000 girls under 15 in England and Wales could be at high risk of Karl Turner: I agree entirely with my hon. Friend, FGM. That is more than 50 young victims every day. It who has raised the issue on several occasions in the is happening now, as we speak in the debate. The issue is House. She is absolutely right that the police need to do not party political, and has been raised by Government much more, and they need to work with other authorities. and Opposition Members. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Battersea (Jane Ellison), who is recognised Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): I am pleased and in this place and outside the House for her tremendous grateful to the hon. Gentleman for securing today’s work in raising the matter. debate. To pick up on that last point, there is one thing that the police need to think about. There was a recent Eradicating the practice will take not only cross-party and well-known exposé in a major national paper. Some support but cross-departmental work involving the Home hon. Members were present at the annual general meeting Office, the Department for Education, the Department of the all-party group on female genital mutilation of Health and the Foreign Office. The subject is complex, when the Director of Public Prosecutions explained but I want to use today’s debate to understand the that prosecutions were not possible on the back of that Ministry of Justice’s role in dealing with FGM and to exposé. However, the idea of going after the aiders and press the Minister responsible for victims of crime on abettors, for which the 2003 Act more than makes what the Government are doing to ensure that those provision, is one thing that we need more heft behind, voiceless victims are protected. I want to know what her because it is obviously a more promising route than Department is doing to champion that cause and what trying to get children to report their parents. she is doing not only to prevent people from becoming victims in future, but to seek justice for existing victims. I understand that several failings fall under the remit of Karl Turner: The hon. Lady makes a good point. I the Home Office, but my concern is that no Minister is had the opportunity through Hilary Burrage, who has specifically responsible for FGM. Given that there are campaigned tirelessly on female genital mutilation, to 20,000 victims every year, the victims Minister should meet the leading French prosecutor. What the hon. perhaps shoulder a fair proportion of that responsibility. Lady suggests is exactly the action being taken in France. Working in that way clearly helps to prevent perpetrators Female genital mutilation has been a criminal offence from committing the offence. in this country since 1985, but some may argue that it has been a criminal offence for much longer, under the I am pleased that we now have a victims commissioner. Offences Against the Person Act 1861. In my respectful It is not a party-political point, but it has taken at least submission, FGM is without a shadow of a doubt 12 months for that to happen. I am sure that Baroness grievous bodily harm. It is an appalling practice. The Newlove will do an excellent job and continue the good Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003 made it illegal to work of Louise Casey. I want to know the Minister’s take children abroad for the purposes of FGM. Despite thoughts on how much the victims commissioner should that, however, it is astonishing that there has not been a prioritise female genital mutilation. single prosecution. I welcome the recent efforts of the Over recent months, we have heard many positive Director of Public Prosecutions and the publication of words, but I am concerned that positive words are not the Crown Prosecution Service action plan. Keir Starmer reducing the shocking number of victims on the ground QC stated: or delivering the justice that victims deserve. The NSPCC “It is critical that everything possible is done to ensure we rightly states that preventing future victims should remain bring the people who commit these offences against young girls a priority, but we need to see justice for the 50 victims and women to justice”. who will suffer the abuse this very day. Right hon. and hon. Members will welcome that commitment, but those words need to translate into Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): Does the justice for thousands of victims. hon. Gentleman feel that other measures ought to be Despite those recent developments, I am confused as brought into play? In other countries, nurses in schools to why it has taken such a long time for basic questions automatically have to ensure that the authorities are to be asked about why there has been a failure to informed about such matters. That does not seem to prosecute this most despicable child abuse. It is a criminal happen in this country. offence, and it is not good enough for the prosecuting authorities to try to mitigate inaction by suggesting that Karl Turner: I agree with the hon. Lady that the prosecutions are made difficult, or even impossible, authorities need to work more closely together, and to merely because young girls do not present themselves at share information with teachers, nurses and GPs. I have a police station to report their parents for this vile spoken to many professionals who avoid the issue either abuse. It is a criminal offence and it needs to be tackled. because of the sensitivities or, as was suggested to me 29WH Female Genital Mutilation8 JANUARY 2013 Female Genital Mutilation 30WH recently, because they are struggling with their departmental legislation should be reviewed, and whether evidence to budgets. They avoid dealing with the matter. The hon. prosecute under other legislation is easier to support. Lady does not seem terribly impressed at that comment, The CPS action plan is not the silver bullet. We need a but that point was put to me very recently. The reduction national action plan—an integrated cross-departmental in social services budgets is definitely an issue, because plan—that is adequately funded to stop this despicable female genital mutilation is not the priority that it crime. should be. I am concerned that for many years there has been The lack of evidence and witnesses is also an issue. interdepartmental buck passing. When I say that the The lack of prosecutions is compounded by many factors. issue is not party political, I mean that sincerely. The The police are not investigating FGM with enough reality is that the previous Government failed dreadfully vigour, as was suggested earlier. It is estimated that of in tackling the issue. They had 13 years in which to take the 20,000 suspected cases some 6,000 will be based in the matter on, and since then the current Government London. The Metropolitan police’s Project Azure was have not done a lot. We must have a national action set up to tackle the problem, but a freedom of information plan because the issue needs strong political will, not request showed that the team consisted of only two just warm words. police officers—one full-time and one part-time. It is ridiculous to suggest that such policing is sufficient to Given that this crime produces 20,000 victims every tackle this shocking issue. year, I suggest that the Minister’s Department has a single Minister with specific responsibility for providing Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): justice to victims. As the NSPCC rightly states, female I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important genital mutilation is a form of physical child abuse that debate. Has he considered whether the authorities can should be dealt with through the child protection system. work with individuals in the communities involved who Reticence or failure to intervene effectively is not acceptable are concerned about what is happening? Does he have in other instances of child abuse, nor should it be in the any views on that? case of FGM. We need a standardised FGM data collection policy. I wholeheartedly welcome last month’s Karl Turner: I do have views, and my hon. Friend landmark passing of the UN resolution calling for a makes an excellent point. She has raised the matter in global ban on FGM, and I hope that the UK will now the House on numerous occasions. An issue that follows act on the issue with focused priority. from that is the obvious lack of data collection. It is Finally, I suggest that statutory teaching of sex education accepted that robust data collection and assessment of in primary school may assist in helping to eradicate this the problem are urgently needed. A Government equality vile practice. impact assessment was published last year and stated: “Lack of data is an ongoing issue in the government’s work to prevent and tackle FGM.” 11.15 am It will be impossible to tackle the problem without robust systems in place to identify its true level and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice at-risk children. I am pleased that this is now a priority (Mrs Helen Grant): It is a pleasure, Mr Hollobone, to in the Crown Prosecution Service’s action plan, but the serve under your chairmanship. I earnestly congratulate Home Office assessment said that a large-scale community- the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl based study would have a very high cost, and that the Turner) on securing this debate on victims of the abhorrent Department will continue to examine alternative options crime of female genital mutilation. I also congratulate and to consider how existing data may capture information the hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy), about FGM. my hon. Friend the Member for South Derbyshire (Heather Wheeler). the hon. Member for Liverpool, Jane Ellison: I apologise for intervening again. On Riverside (Mrs Ellman) and my hon. Friend the Member that specific point, the House may like to know that for Battersea (Jane Ellison) on their important interventions. nearly a year ago Quality Now! led a Home Office-funded I congratulate particularly my hon. Friend the Member two-day expert methodological workshop. It made specific for Battersea on her tireless work over many years, and recommendations on how robust data could be gathered as chair of the all-party group on female genital mutilation. in ways that would be less expensive than those that the hon. Gentleman described. That report and the Female genital mutilation is an extremely painful and recommendations have been sitting in the Home Office harmful practice that blights the lives of many young for almost a year. It is good that it funded the original girls and women. The Government roundly condemn workshop, but a plan exists and could be funded cross- the practice and are determined to see it eradicated in departmentally to get us away from relying on data that this country and elsewhere. In my joint role as Minister are extrapolated from the 2001 census. Hon. Members for Victims and the Courts and Minister for Women will be aware of how much Britain’s demography has and Equalities, I am particularly pleased to have the changed since the 2001 census. opportunity of responding to this debate. The practice of female genital mutilation is an age-old Karl Turner: I entirely agree with the hon. Lady. She one that is deeply steeped in the culture and tradition of is more expert in the matter than I am, and has raised practising communities. Those who practise it no doubt the issue consistently since being elected to the House. I genuinely believe that it is in their children’s best interests welcome her thoughts on the issue. to conform to the prevailing custom of their community, I have said previously that the Crown Prosecution but that does not excuse the gross violation of human Service action plan is a step in the right direction, and I rights. It is wholly unacceptable to allow a practice that welcome it, but I would be interested to know whether can have such devastating consequences for the health the Director of Public Prosecutions believes that current of a young girl. The physical and psychological effects 31WH Female Genital Mutilation8 JANUARY 2013 Female Genital Mutilation 32WH

[Mrs Helen Grant] are setting up the travel and the medical care when the children get back, and they are meeting them at the can last throughout her life. The mutilation and impairment other end. Where there is a will, there is a way. This has of young girls and women have no place in a modern been held back by some misguided notion that it would society where equality is prized. be racist to pursue the issue. It is racist not to. If these My Department is responsible for the criminal law in girls were white middle-class children, we would be this area. The Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003 protecting them a lot better than we are now. extended significantly the protection that the law affords these vulnerable young victims. It created extraterritorial Mrs Grant: I hear everything that my hon. Friend has offences to deter people from taking girls abroad for to say, and I am aware that she knows a considerable mutilation. To reflect the serious harm caused, it increased amount about the matter. I do not accept that there is a the maximum penalty for female genital mutilation lack of will, but I hear what she has to say, and I will from five to 14 years. Sadly, like the Prohibition of make sure that as much action as possible is taken to Female Circumcision Act 1985 that it replaced, the deal with the issues that she highlighted. 2003 Act has yet to result in a successful prosecution, I very much welcome the action plan that the Director which is a source of considerable frustration. That is of Public Prosecutions published recently, with a view not, as some have suggested, a reflection of the effectiveness to bringing a successful prosecution for female genital of the law itself. The law is perfectly capable of dealing mutilation. The willingness of victims and others to with perpetrators if offences are reported to the police, come forward and give evidence in court is crucial. We and evidential and public interest tests for prosecution need to create a climate in which victims, and those are met. At the time of mutilation, however, victims close to them, feel able to report offences to the police may be too young, too vulnerable, or too afraid to and to receive the help and support that they need to report offences, and they may be reluctant to implicate give evidence, so that perpetrators of this unacceptable, family members. The simple fact is that no law can be dreadful practice can be brought to justice. effective in this area unless the barriers to prosecution Of course, the law is only one part of tackling the are overcome. problem of female genital mutilation in this country, and prosecution after the fact does not relieve the Karl Turner: Before being elected to this place, I victim from a lifetime of pain and discomfort. Ideally, practised as a criminal lawyer, and I worked on behalf we want to prevent the mutilation from happening in of defendants who were charged with serious sexual the first place. We need to educate people and change abuse of children. It is not often suggested that it is their attitudes— sometimes long-established attitudes. difficult to bring such cases to prosecution, and the A holistic approach and a multi-agency response are same issues are involved. Will the Minister explain her vital. point?

Mrs Grant: I am aware of the hon. Gentleman’s Heather Wheeler: The Minister talks about a multi- criminal law experience. The law is robust, extensive disciplinary approach. I wonder whether she could open and adequate but, unfortunately, dealing with the issue up discussions with the health authorities, because I often involves very young children who are frightened understand that, under the NHS, restorative medical and reluctant to take action against family members. treatment is not granted automatically. There is often pressure within their community not to give evidence and not to say anything. Mrs Grant: I note what my hon. Friend says. I shall come on to health and cross-Government, inter-agency Karl Turner: It is the same with sexual abuse. multi-practice in a moment, but if I do not cover her specific point, I will be happy to write to her. Mrs Grant: I would disagree, but obviously, the adequacy A joined-up approach within Government is also of the law is something that we will always keep under important. The Government’s approach to tackling female review. I know that the Director of Public Prosecutions genital mutilation is set out in our “Call to End Violence has had conversations with the Home Office and Ministry Against Women and Girls” action plan. Our key focus of Justice officials—I think the hon. Gentleman is is prevention, and cross-Government work, co-ordinated aware of those—on the effectiveness of the law, and by the Home Office, has seen significant progress in whether new laws or other legislation, such as the raising awareness of female genital mutilation and Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims (Amendment) supporting professionals to intervene. Central to that Act 2012, might help in those areas. I can assure the work are the multi-agency practice guidelines on female hon. Gentleman that the matter will be kept under genital mutilation, which were published in February review, but I will discuss a number of other things in my 2011. They highlight the risk factors that teachers, speech that can be done in the interim. nurses, GPs, police officers and social workers should be looking out for in their work, and they set out what Jane Ellison: The Minister may well be moving on to action they should take. Above all, they stress the need this point, but I just want to agree with what the hon. for a collaborative effort to protect girls at risk. A Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner) review of the use and effectiveness of the guidelines was said. If the police wanted to go after the people who launched by the Home Office in August 2012, and a were organising this, they could. I hope that the Minister report on the findings of that review will be published will address in her remaining comments the fact that, later this year. Additionally, over 40,000 information ultimately, there is a lack of will. We all know that leaflets and posters about female genital mutilation children are not going to report it. They are too young. have been distributed to schools, health services, charities They are not going to report their parents, but people and community groups around the country. 33WH Female Genital Mutilation8 JANUARY 2013 Female Genital Mutilation 34WH

We also continue to support front-line organisations Ultimately, the eradication of female genital mutilation that work with communities to challenge their long-held in this country will require the practising communities beliefs about the practice. The Home Office launched a themselves to abandon this awful practice. It is a sad £50,000 fund in November 2012, from which organisations fact that older women, who are themselves victims of may bid for grants of £2,000 to £5,000. That follows genital mutilation, are often the strongest advocates for from the success of the 2011 fund, which supported the continuance of the practice. Such attitudes are 10 organisations working to tackle FGM across England deeply ingrained. and Wales. Another recent initiative is the declaration The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East against FGM launched by the Home Office in November. asked what the Victims Commissioner’s role might be in Based on the Dutch document known as the “health relation to the issue. The Victims Commissioner has a passport”, it sets out the law and penalties for female statutory duty to promote the interests of victims of genital mutilation. It is supported by and carries the crime, including victims of female genital mutilation. I signatures of relevant Ministers, including my own and hope that she will be taking up her position later this those of the Minister of State, Home Department, my month, and I look forward to working closely with her hon. Friend the Member for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne) on those matters. He also asked about my role as and the Under-Secretary of State for Health, my hon. victims Minister, with particular reference to female Friend the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), genital mutilation, and I can tell him that I will be as well as that of the Director of Public Prosecutions. working closely with the Home Office in a cross- The Department of Health continues to ensure that Government capacity on an issue that, as I think he health professionals are able to respond appropriately knows, is also very close to my heart. to girls and women who may be at risk of genital mutilation and to those whose have already been subjected In a wider context, I am responsible for looking after to it. In May 2012, the then Health Minister, my hon. victims and doing everything that I can to care for, Friend the Member for Guildford (Anne Milton), wrote support and help them, including, of course, victims of to the royal colleges and NHS agencies encouraging female genital mutilation. I will be working with the them to raise awareness of the problem among professionals, police and crime commissioners to make sure that they and the Department’s chief medical officer and the do everything that they possibly can to eradicate the director of nursing, with the support of the royal colleges, practice, and working with the police in their new wrote to health professionals drawing their attention to capacities. We will be reforming the victims code, which the multi-agency practice guidelines. It is clear from the will hopefully make it easier for victims—including responses received that all are committed to playing victims of female genital mutilation—to navigate their their part in eradicating this dreadful practice. way through the criminal justice system, which can often be very confusing and intimidating, as I am sure Work is continuing across Government to look at all the hon. Gentleman is aware, having worked in it for possible ways of tackling this complex issue. To that many years. end, in two days’ time, the Minister with responsibility for crime prevention, my honourable Friend the Member In conclusion, the Government remain committed to for Taunton Deane, will be co-hosting, with the National protecting young girls and women from the abuse, and Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, a to ensuring that those living with its consequences get round-table meeting with key professionals. The meeting’s the care and support that they need and deserve. I thank purpose is to explore how those working with children all hon. Members who have contributed to the debate, can work together to detect potential victims of FGM and I hope that it will serve to keep this important issue and deter those from considering carrying out the act. firmly on the agenda. The public health Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe, and the Minister with responsibility for children, my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and 11.29 am Nantwich (Mr Timpson), will also be attending. Sitting suspended. 35WH 8 JANUARY 2013 Liverpool Care Pathway 36WH

Liverpool Care Pathway criticisms that have been made, but I do know that we cannot avoid death and I also believe that most people do not fear death so much as they fear the process of [MR MIKE WEIR in the Chair] death. The aim of the Liverpool care pathway is to ensure that the process is as compassionate, dignified and free from pain and discomfort as possible and, 2.30 pm importantly, consistent with public safety. Our aim Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): Mr Weir, I should be that the pathway is used in a way that retains would like to say how much of a pleasure it is to serve public confidence—that it is being used in accordance under the chairmanship of a fellow Celt. I declare an with the principles on which the Marie Curie Palliative interest as a board member of Living and Dying Well, Care Institute developed it. which specialises in research into and opposition to the I hope that the Minister will agree that we must legalisation of assisted suicide. ensure that the pathway is subject to the very highest I shall begin with a summary of the current position. levels of scrutiny and that the framework can be allowed The “Liverpool Care Pathway for the Dying Patient” to be implemented only against a background of total was developed by the Marie Curie Palliative Care Institute transparency. There must be discussion with patients or Liverpool as a framework for health professionals to with patients’ families or carers and there must be use to ensure that people who are dying have as comfortable clearly available avenues through which complaints and and dignified a death as possible. The pathway was concerns can be channelled. I hope that the Minister developed and has been in use since the 1990s. Today, will assure us that the very serious allegations reported about 130,000 of the 450,000 patients who die in hospital in the media will be thoroughly investigated and that, if care every year die while being cared for on the pathway. any examples of bad practice are found, action will be It has also been exported and is now in use in more than taken to expose those responsible, to hold them to 20 other countries. account and to do everything possible to prevent it from However, during the past few months, the Liverpool happening again. The experiences at Winterbourne View care pathway has been the subject of some very serious and hospitals in Worcestershire and the appalling and criticisms and allegations in the media, which has led to chilling events that took place in Stafford are too raw in questions about whether it is indeed a worthy process. I the memory to allow anything else. It is only through shall explain why I sought this debate and the outcomes audit and disciplinary measures, if and when appropriate, that I would like to achieve before considering in greater that the Liverpool care pathway will retain the integrity detail the criticisms that have been made of the pathway. needed for it to be acceptable and the confidence of those who might use it. By any measure, the Liverpool care pathway plays a very significant role in how the end of life is managed in Two years ago, I had never heard of the Liverpool our country. Its role is much greater than most of us care pathway. I first took an interest in it as a consequence realise: 30% of patients who die in hospital care die of my concerns about and opposition to the legalisation while on the pathway. The sheer scale of this is why I of assisted dying. I was hugely surprised by how widely believe that debate about it is too important to be led by the pathway was in use. I had no idea that 130,000 patients national newspapers, although I certainly do not criticise in hospital care died while on the pathway every year those newspapers for reporting stories in the way they and I do not think that many people realise that today. have done. Indeed, they have served a valuable purpose by raising public awareness of such an important issue. Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con): I am grateful However, there is, almost inevitably, a tendency for to my hon. Friend for giving way to a fellow Celt. I newspapers to couch the debate in sensationalist terms. congratulate him not just on securing the debate, but on It is up to us as parliamentarians to ensure that this the tone in which he has introduced it. He referred to complex and potentially controversial issue is subject to the number of people who are on the Liverpool care balanced and thorough debate in the House of Commons. pathway, but to help the debate has he done any work The outcome that I seek today is calm reflection by on the expansion in numbers since the 1990s? Did we parliamentarians, including those on the Front Benches, swiftly move to 130,000? Is that a consistent number, or on this most sensitive of issues—calm reflection on the has there been a gradual increase over time? I ask that issues without encouraging the spread of alarm and because of course it is the rolling out of the pathway despondency among those entering care, which can that may lead to some people having less expertise—less result from sensationalist allegations. I also seek a response skill—and then, as a result of that, some of the instances from Government—from the Minister—that they will that my hon. Friend refers to some poor reporting of? ensure that the review on which they have already embarked includes careful and thorough investigation Glyn Davies: My hon. Friend makes a very important of the allegations that have been made of bad practice. point about the need for training and expertise for all It is important to know whether the allegations are those who are responsible for putting people on the accurate and, if they are, where the weaknesses lie and pathway and for looking after them when they are on it. what needs to be done to put those matters right. I want to come to that later in my comments. I am a supporter of the Liverpool care pathway, but The negative coverage in our national media has my aim today is not to defend or to attack the pathway, probably increased awareness of the Liverpool care those who have made allegations of shocking bad practice, pathway. To that extent, I think that it has been a very or the media, which have given the allegations such good thing, but because I do not believe that the scale of great publicity. It is to promote open and genuine the pathway is widely known, I think that it is right to debate in Parliament. In any case, I am not in a position say something about what the Liverpool care pathway to judge how much substance there is to the various is and what it is not in order to set out the context of the 37WH Liverpool Care Pathway8 JANUARY 2013 Liverpool Care Pathway 38WH debate,. It is certainly not and must never be any form being deprived of the food and water they needed and of “euthanasia by the back door”—a phrase that I have others being kept continuously sedated until they died; heard—nor is it a form of clinical treatment or even any and of patients being placed on the pathway without specific type of care. It does not instruct doctors or consultation with them or their families, or to meet nurses to provide this or that treatment. What it does is targets. The fear of that is especially shocking, and I prompt them to consider whether certain treatments are hope the Minister will comment specifically on the issue appropriate in individual circumstances. It supports—it of targets. does not replace—clinical care. It is no more than a Let me look at some of the allegations in more detail. framework of good practice, backed up by training and According to the Daily Mail in June last year, education, to guide doctors, nurses and other health “NHS doctors are prematurely ending the lives of thousands professionals towards delivering the high levels of palliative of elderly hospital patients because they are difficult to manage care that have been available in hospices for many years. or to free up beds”. It enables them to be transferred to hospitals, care The report is based on a presentation to the Royal homes and patients’ homes. It is about the appropriate Society of Medicine by Professor Patrick Pullicino, a way to look after a patient who is clearly dying through consultant neurologist. He stated: the last few days and hours of life. “The lack of evidence for initiating the Liverpool Care Pathway Some other points should be made in this debate. The makes it an assisted death pathway rather than a care pathway.” Liverpool care pathway does not recommend, as some That is the debate being led by the Daily Mail. Professor have suggested, that dying patients should be deprived Pullicino continued: of food and water, although food and water may be withdrawn in individual cases if clinicians believe that “Very likely many elderly patients who could live substantially longer are being killed by the LCP.” that is the right step to take. The Liverpool care pathway does recommend to doctors and nurses that they explain Imagine how a frail elderly person entering hospital a to dying patients, or more often their next of kin, few weeks after reading that would feel. Professor Pullicino exactly what is happening and why. Secrecy forms no added: part of the Liverpool care pathway whatever. “Patients are frequently put on the pathway without a proper It is also important to emphasise that there is nothing analysis of their condition.” irreversible about being placed on the Liverpool care According to the Daily Telegraph, in September, a group pathway. of experts stated in a letter that “dying patients…can…have fluid and drugs withdrawn and many Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): are put on continuous sedation until they pass away.” Will my hon. Friend give way on that point? The letter—again according to the Daily Telegraph—spoke of a “national crisis” in patient care, and Glyn Davies: On that point, I will, yes. “a national wave of discontent…building up, as family and friends witness the denial of fluids and food to patients.” Andrew Bridgen: I thank my hon. Friend for calling According to the newspaper, some patients were wrongly this very important debate. I, too, share some of his being put on the pathway, which created a “self-fulfilling concerns about the consistency with which the Liverpool prophecy” that they would die. The report continued: care pathway is implemented across the country. I made “Patients who are allowed to become dehydrated and then some inquiries in the hospitals that serve my constituents, become confused can be wrongly put on this pathway”, but information seemed to be lacking on the implementation and, of the care pathway. I am particularly concerned that “many doctors were not checking the progress of patients enough patients placed on the pathway may have no opportunity to notice improvement in their condition.” to be taken off it if they improve. There are no figures Those are shockingly serious allegations. If they are on the number of patients for whom care has been true, urgent corrective action is needed. reintroduced after being placed on the pathway. One of the hospitals told me, anecdotally, that no one there There is another side to the equation, however. More could remember anyone being taken off the pathway. I than 20 respected organisations, including the Department find that worrying. of Health, Age UK, the Alzheimer’s Society, Macmillan Cancer Support, and the Royal Colleges of Physicians, General Practitioners and Nursing, have signed a Glyn Davies: My hon. Friend makes a very good declaration that: point. Patients on the pathway should be monitored regularly, and if the patient shows signs of rallying, as “Since the late 1990s, the Liverpool Care Pathway has been helping to spread elements of the hospice model of care into does happen in a minority of cases, the treatment other healthcare settings”. should be modified to support recovery. If that is not happening, the pathway is not being implemented properly. It mentions: The Liverpool care pathway is not a pathway to death “Published misconceptions and often inaccurate information”— —a phrase I have seen used often, but which I think referring, I think, to the stories in national newspapers I is unbelievably awful. It is a travesty of the truth to have quoted. Our task and the Minister’s is to reconcile describe it as a form of euthanasia. the support of all those organisations for the Liverpool Why have we reached the point of huge public care pathway with the allegations made—in good faith, controversy, which has caused so much angst and fear? I am sure—by people who believe that the pathway is It has arisen from allegations—serious allegations, some what they call a pathway to death. of them from doctors and nurses—that the pattern of Any tool is only as good as the workman who uses it. end-of-life care I have described has not been followed The declaration states clearly that the Liverpool care in some cases. There have been stories of dying patients pathway: 39WH Liverpool Care Pathway8 JANUARY 2013 Liverpool Care Pathway 40WH

[Glyn Davies] I end with a general observation. I was appalled, as I am sure everyone in the Chamber was, by the recent “Relies on staff being trained to have a thorough understanding revelations of poor care in a Worcestershire hospital, in of how to care for people who are in their last days or hours of Winterbourne View and in Stafford hospital. I was life.” moved, as many of us will have been, by the observations We have to face the fact that, in most professions, there made in the main Chamber before the Christmas recess are instances of excellence and malpractice, and health by the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann care is no exception. It would be surprising if, when Clwyd) regarding the inadequate and cruel care given to 130,000 people a year are dying on the Liverpool care her late husband. We are reading about too many such pathway, there were no cases in which the pathway had cases. Considerable advances have been made in medical been misapplied. That applies to every branch of medicine science, but we must ensure that, at the same time, we and, indeed, every occupation. There are good and less do not lose commitment in the NHS to basic care. I good doctors and nurses; there are well run and less well cannot help wondering whether the examples of poor run hospitals; but to lay the blame at the door of the end-of-life care that some relatives believe was given to Liverpool care pathway is like tearing up “The Highway their loved ones stem from the wider malaise of forgetting Code” because there are some bad drivers. Where there how to care for the sick, rather than from any specific is bad practice and poor care, it should be rooted out clinical protocols such as the Liverpool care pathway. and replaced with good care. Several hon. Members rose— It seems to me that the review the Government recently launched provides an excellent opportunity to consider Mr Mike Weir (in the Chair): Order. Several Members thoroughly all those issues. It is urgently needed. The wish to speak. I want to call the first of the Front review should call for any evidence of poor end-of-life Benchers no later than 3.40 pm. A quick calculation care. We need the Minister to assure us this afternoon suggests that, if Members keep their speeches to about that the stories I have quoted will not simply be taken at seven minutes—and interventions are brief—I will be face value, but will be investigated in detail, so that we able to call everyone. can establish the scale of poor end-of-life care, and understand the causes and correct them. 2.49 pm Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): It is a pleasure Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): I am to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Weir. I congratulate listening carefully to the important points the hon. the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) Gentleman is making. My constituents John and Mary on securing this essential and timely debate. Roche lost their mother five years ago. They came to see me because, having seen the media reports, they were As hon. Members and the Minister will know, opinions concerned about her care toward the end of her life—she on this end-of-life care framework tend to be polarised, had been admitted to hospital and subsequently had but I believe that fundamental questions need to be her food and nutrition withdrawn. Does he think my answered about how the Liverpool care pathway has constituents and others like them should be encouraged fallen into such disrepute, when it was developed to to share their stories, so that they can be taken into help doctors and nurses provide quality end-of-life care account in the Government’s review of the Liverpool for the dying. That involves palliative care options for care pathway and its appropriate use? patients in the final hours or days of life, not a procedure that some members of the public now regard as a way prematurely to kill off the terminally ill or senior citizens. Glyn Davies: I thank the hon. Lady for making that The hon. Member for Montgomeryshire has outlined point, because I most certainly do agree. I hope that, as the process in which the Liverpool care pathway should a result of today’s debate, more people will come forward work, involving significant communication if possible to put their experiences, especially of bad practice, in with the patient, but certainly with their next of kin and front of the Minister and the review. family. I share his support for the framework when it We must not forget that it is necessary not to allow operates properly and allows the dying to die with the shortcomings of some end-of-life care providers to dignity and free of pain. Why are there so many stories undermine the outstanding work that the majority of in the press of distressed families complaining that they doctors and nurses perform. It is easy to forget that, for did not know that a relative had been put on the those caring for people in the last days and hours of pathway? The huge problem lies in the human application their life, alarmist stories cause real problems, misleading of the rules, not necessarily in the rules themselves. One vulnerable people and their relatives into thinking that in three families of those dying say that they never the unhappy experiences reported so prominently are received the leaflet explaining the LCP process that they typical of end-of-life care as a whole, making them should have been given. Why is it not mandatory to reluctant to accept care that is genuinely beneficial, and evidence in the notes discussions with the patient or the generating fear of going into any sort of care setting. family about the Liverpool care pathway? My sense is that the high profile given to these serious Some would say that the difference between a allegations, unaccompanied by supporting evidence, is multidisciplinary team decision, taken with the family’s analogous to shouting “Fire!” in a crowded theatre. We knowledge and consent, and a decision taken in isolation need to know that the Minister will consider all the could be seen as murder or at least manslaughter. allegations that are made, including those that have The stark reality of the Liverpool care pathway is that been reported, look at the evidence, and institute whatever 57,000 patients a year are dying without being told that changes are needed to ensure safety and thereby confidence efforts to keep them alive have been stopped. In some in the integrity of the Liverpool care pathway. respects, there are parallels with the cases of Mid 41WH Liverpool Care Pathway8 JANUARY 2013 Liverpool Care Pathway 42WH

Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust and University without me” became a principle and a value, rather than Hospitals of Morecambe Bay NHS Foundation Trust, the vacuous phrase that it currently is. There is no which were supposed to be operating the same system politics in that—it is really important; it is the core of as that in every other NHS trust in the country and yet everything. somehow ended up abjectly failing their patients, so Through Lord Alton of Liverpool, I am aware that that people died unnecessarily. The sheer scale of the Liverpool medical school requires all its students to failure to inform people, or their relatives, that they are undertake one month’s training in the care pathway, on the pathway opens up the practice to attack. working in a hospice during their fourth year. Such People talk about back-door euthanasia and some good practice should surely be a core component say that it is tantamount to assisted death, except that in nationwide, and in the light of a recent study, there is 57,000 cases people were not aware that they were being perhaps an argument for making it mandatory across assisted. That has to be added to the cocktail of the the country. That kind of training needs to be given to timing and the context of where we are now. The NHS those already qualified and working on our wards—not is saving £20 billion over four years. There are service just doctors, but nurses and all members of the pressures—the lack of available beds and severe cuts in multidisciplinary team who are called on to make decisions. social services budgets that result in bed blocking, together If there have to be financial incentives, they should with the demands of an aging society—but, frighteningly, follow the training to ensure that all those who care for as we have become aware via the press, at the same time the terminally ill and dying are properly equipped with hospital trusts receive financial incentives for achieving the skills that they need, in what for all concerned are certain performance targets in putting people on the traumatic and often complex situations. Good training Liverpool care pathway. costs money and must be externally validated, and I Let me be clear—not for one second am I suggesting invite the Minister to respond specifically about that that those factors are part of the decision-making process; need. I use them merely to highlight the fundamental problem I see merits in a system that manages end-of-life care of the pathway and the perception that exists in the effectively—it is a measure of our humanity that we wider public, especially among the elderly. seek ways to ease suffering—but my concerns about the Why do hospital trusts require any financial incentive application of the Liverpool care pathway remain. There to follow the Liverpool care pathway? For me, that is far too little reassurance in the system, which has question goes to the very heart of our national health allowed the pathway to move from an end-of-life care service and our absolute understanding of what the system to one that is held up as hastening death. We can medical profession stands for in people’s eyes. We believe talk about the theory of how the LCP should be followed, that it is the role of the NHS and medical professionals but the fact remains that, in practice, it is not always to take every conceivable step to preserve life until the implemented as intended. It should never be seen as a options are exhausted. The Department of Health has conveyor belt to the cemetery. Some 80,000 patients are proposed to enshrine in the NHS constitution, as a supported by—not put on—the Liverpool care pathway, patient right, an entitlement to be informed of any and many receive the finest care, but many is not good consideration about placing a patient on the Liverpool enough. It is said that about 1% of cases go badly care pathway.Why can that not be made a legal requirement, wrong, but just one case—never mind 1% of cases—is so that everybody knows—and we are sure that everybody one too many. Those who founded the pathway did so knows—and can be assured that taking such a decision because of their respect for the dignity of patients; is right? those who implement it need to understand and share that view or face the legal consequences and their own consciences. Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): I add my congratulations to the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) on securing this important debate. To go 2.59 pm back to the hon. Lady’s point about the financial incentives Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): When I first entered for hospitals, it appals me, too. Surely, if patients or the House of Commons some 30 years ago, I became their families are not consulted, the Liverpool care the founder secretary of the all-party hospice support pathway is not being followed, so any payment by the group, and Jack Ashley was the founder chairman. I am Department of Health to a hospital for having supposedly glad to say that that group has now become the all-party had someone supported by the pathway is money paid parliamentary group on hospice and palliative care. wrongfully, deceitfully and possibly unlawfully. Does During those 30 years, an enormous amount of work she therefore agree that the Department should tell has been done on enhancing palliative care in hospitals. hospitals that have failed to consult family and friends We are fortunate in this country in having an outstanding or the patients themselves that the Department wants hospice movement. Part of the purpose of the Liverpool back some of that money? care pathway was to ensure that the good practice of palliative care, which had been developed in hospices, Rosie Cooper: That takes me back to my earlier point could be spread to other health care settings, such as that we should document the conversations with families, hospitals and care homes. Extending it to people’s own so that that would be the tick box for payments. I am homes was also important because if people are asked running out of time, so I shall move on quickly. where they would like to die, most say at home. The Will the Minister elucidate how the NHS constitution reality for each one of us is that we will die. requirement will make a difference? Procedures are The Liverpool care pathway requires staff to ensure already in place, yet 50% of patients on the pathway that all decisions to continue or to stop treatment are were not informed, or their families were not consulted. taken in the best interests of each patient, and emphasises It is time that the soundbite, “No decision about me that patients should be involved in decisions about their 43WH Liverpool Care Pathway8 JANUARY 2013 Liverpool Care Pathway 44WH

[Sir Tony Baldry] press have published a number of stories about relatives who have expressed concern about how the local care care and that carers and families should always be pathway has been used, there is no systemic evidence to included in the decision-making process. An evaluation suggest that the policy is being abused. A consensus in 2011 showed that in 94% of cases, there had been statement was published last year by several non- such involvement. The idea of documenting conversations, governmental organisations and charities, all of which which the hon. Member for West Lancashire (Rosie are much respected in this House, supporting the Liverpool Cooper) mentioned, is sensible. In our own professional care pathway. They include Age UK, the Alzheimer’s lives, and, indeed, as Members of Parliament, we all Society, the British Heart Foundation, Help the Hospices, know that people, especially family members, do not Macmillan Cancer Support, Marie Curie Cancer Care, always take on board news that may be distressing. the Royal College of General Practitioners, the Royal Often it is quite a shock to be told that a loved one is College of Nursing, the Multiple Sclerosis Society and near to death. Very often, the instinctive reaction is to the Royal College of Physicians. want to ensure that life can be preserved for as long as possible, but we also have a duty of care to ensure that Jim Shannon rose— in people’s last days and hours they die well and painlessly and with as much dignity as possible. Sir Tony Baldry: No, I will not give way because I was very struck by two contributions in the Library others want to speak. This is an important issue, but we briefing. One was a brave article by a specialist registrar must ensure that we put it in perspective. If we are not who herself is a terminally ill cancer patient. Of the careful, all the work that has been done over the past 30 Liverpool care pathway, she said: years by a whole number of organisations, including “It prompts us to have open discussions with relatives, and, if those that I have just mentioned, to enhance and improve possible, patients, to stop unnecessary medication, to discontinue palliative care could be undone. Sadly, people die every futile medical interventions, and to shift our focus of care to day; that is the reality. It is not a failure of the NHS that symptom-control, comfort and dignity… Most patients on the people die. It is only a failure of the NHS if people do LCP, in my experience, are too poorly to eat or drink, but where a not die well. We need to ensure that all improvements, patient is alert enough to swallow we certainly continue to offer them food and fluids in my hospital. They are not ‘starved to whether they be to records or to communication with death’. The problem with intravenous fluids is that cannulae need patients and their families, are undertaken, but nothing to be inserted to administer them. This is painful, often very should deter us from trying to ensure that everyone in difficult and sometimes near impossible in patients who have been this country gets the best possible end of life and the in hospital for a number of weeks.” best possible palliative care.

Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Although the hon. Gentleman makes a pertinent point, surely the issue 3.7 pm must also be about those people who are not convinced Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ about the system and who are suspicious and worried Co-op): I am pleased to serve under your chairmanship, about what they have been told. There are people who Mr Weir. I congratulate the hon. Member for have been denied fluids, and also drink and food. Does Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) on securing this debate the hon. Gentleman think that there should be some on such an important issue. protection in the system for such families so that they I represent St Joseph’s hospice on Mare street in can feel assured that there is care? The point I am trying Hackney, which is a beacon of good practice in end-of-life to make is that this should be about care and not killing, care. Under the expert leadership of its chief executive, but many of us suspect that there is more emphasis on Michael Kerin, its medical director, Dr Anjali Mullick, the killing than on the care. and the Sisters of Charity, who founded it more than 100 years ago, the hospice ensures that people in their Sir Tony Baldry: Very few of us can have the confidence last stages of life receive care and die with the respect of Cardinal Basil Hume who, in his book “The Mystery and dignity that they deserve, and that is what we are of the Cross”, observed: talking about today. “Death is a formidable foe until we learn to make it a friend. Death is to be feared if we do not learn to welcome it. Death is the It is worth reiterating here what end-of-life care should ultimate absurdity if we do not see it as fulfilment. Death haunts offer. It is about treating someone who is dying as a us when viewed as a journey into nothingness rather than a person, and not as a number or a patient, and about pilgrimage to a place where true happiness is found...Deathis looking at that individual’s needs in the round. It is not not the end of the road, but a gateway to a better place.” about giving a mechanistic response. As my hon. Friend Few of us, irrespective of our faith, have that clear the Member for West Lancashire (Rosie Cooper) said, courage and confidence, but we all recognise that we surely once a clinical decision has been made about will die. There is nothing about 21st century medicine someone’s life chances, we, as a compassionate society, that is going to keep the hon. Member for Strangford should try to ease suffering and support them to die (Jim Shannon) or myself, or any of us, alive for ever. well. The Liverpool care pathway, which is used only Death, and the process of death, can be extremely when someone is in the last hours or, in some circumstances, painful, and it is our collective duty and responsibility the last days of their life, aims to provide the tools to to try to ensure that people die as painlessly as possible enable rest and care rather than making active interventions and with as much dignity as possible. that would cause a person to die less well. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that people do not Those fine principles are great, although they may go into the medical profession to kill. My father became not always be adhered to fully. Good leadership and a doctor and my mother a nurse to ensure that they training of staff are vital, and that is one of the issues I could give people the best quality of care. Although the want to address in the short time I have to speak. 45WH Liverpool Care Pathway8 JANUARY 2013 Liverpool Care Pathway 46WH

We face an important challenge as a society as we away, which was agonising for her and heart-rending for consider the end-of-life care we aspire to. Most of us the members of her family, as they waited and waited want a choice of where we die. If we had a free choice, for their wife and mother to die. Again, there was no most of us would choose to die at home, supported by discussion or consultation with the daughter, although organisations such as Marie Curie or hospices such as perhaps there was with the father. He was an elderly St Joseph’s, whose nurses go out and care for people in man in his 80s, and he was now lying in bed himself, the community. Where individual practitioners are out about to be put on a similar regime. and about and are not being overseen, that will create After her mother died, the daughter felt a terrible greater challenges in the future for regimes such as the guilt. Perhaps it had taken too long for her mother to Liverpool care pathway, but that is no reason to dismiss die. Perhaps the daughter should have asked more questions. it or not to see it as an important way of helping and Perhaps she should not have let her mother suffer so supporting people as they die. much. With no medical background, however, she was That raises an important issue for us as a society. If left rather sad and confused. When the nurse announced we agree that dying well is important, we need to that the hospital was putting her father on the Liverpool recognise that practical and policy issues need to be care pathway, the daughter, knowing a little more about addressed. Patient and family choice about where to die it by this time, immediately contacted her sister, and the works only if proper 24/7 care is provided, whether in next day their father was moved to a nursing home. the home, the hospice, the hospital or another setting, There, his needs were attended to in a positive and and we need to make sure that proper resources and caring way. There, he did not die; in fact, he got better. support are available. Often, that is about training practitioners in general so that they know what best Now, well over six months later, that elderly man is practice is. If we look to our inner humanity, we all very much alive. He is still being cared for. He is eating know what we would want, leaving aside all the medical well, getting up when he wants to and resting when he trappings, if we were dying: we would not want to be does not want to get up. He enjoys visits from his poked and prodded in the last hours of our lives; we family, although he does not enjoy it when his favourite would want to have a good, well-supported death. football team loses in the last minute or so of a match, as happened last Saturday. He is listening to tapes of Training and development are vital, and I welcome Sadler’s Wells opera company singing Gilbert and Sullivan, the work done by trainee doctors in Liverpool, which and he is joining in with “Songs of Praise”. He is having my hon. Friend the Member for West Lancashire intelligent and considered discussions about his finances mentioned. When the hospice movement started, it was and looking forward to his 85th birthday. It is not a rare for doctors to get proper training; indeed, I think fantastic quality of life, but it is a life, and as he told his they spent about a day on the bedside manner for doctor in the nursing home, “I want to live.” dealing with a dying patient and speaking to their family. Things have moved on a lot since then, and it is Minister, Mr Weir, concerned Members, I know all vital that, in the debate about the Liverpool care pathway, that is true, because the lady who passed away so we do not throw out the baby with the bathwater. The distressingly was my mother, and the elderly man I have LCP has done good things, although improvements described is my father. I, their daughter, witnessed all could probably be made at any point to any such those events first hand. In one sense, I am not sure I approach. None the less, it is vital that we maintain the need to say much else to support the points that have approach that dying well is important and should be been made, but the application of the LCP needs to be available to all in every setting. looked into.

3.12 pm John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): My hon. Friend is making a powerful case, and it is obviously painful for her. Does Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): I congratulate my she agree that there is a distinction between accepting hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn the notion that a life must end and accepting that there Davies) not only on securing the debate but on the calm is an inevitable time frame in which that life must end? and measured way in which he introduced it—his was We must not make premature assumptions about that exactly the constructive tone in which we should discuss period, so it is critical that there is a clear understanding this concerning issue. of what the Liverpool pathway means and how it can Last year, an 83-year-old widower was taken into affect the timings of an event we do not know the actual hospital feeling very unwell. His eldest daughter visited trajectory of. him every day. No particular illness was diagnosed, but he was certainly weak and frail. After a few days, the daughter asked a nurse in the corridor, “How is he Fiona Bruce: I thank my hon. Friend for that intelligent today?” Almost casually, the nurse said, “Oh, he’s not comment, and I will talk further about that. very well at all. He has not long to live. We are putting I want to speak now as a vice-chair of the all-party him on the Liverpool care pathway.” There was no group on dying well and the all-party pro-life group. discussion, no explanation, no consultation—just an Despite my personal experiences, I believe the main announcement, a statement of fact, almost in passing. intent of the Liverpool care pathway is compassionate The daughter was shocked. As his eldest child, she and good. It is fundamentally aimed at what is increasingly thought, “Surely there should be more formality, more called a good death. When correctly administered, the dignity, more of a clear process.”What gave her particular principles behind it are those of good palliative care, cause for concern was that her mother had become frail and they are fully in accordance with the view, which I just two or so years earlier—admittedly after a brain hold, that all life is God-given and should be allowed to tumour operation—and had been put on a regime of run its course, without death being hastened through limited food and fluids. It had taken her weeks to pass unnatural intervention. 47WH Liverpool Care Pathway8 JANUARY 2013 Liverpool Care Pathway 48WH

Jim Shannon: I congratulate the hon. Lady on the 3.20 pm passionate way in which she has dealt with this issue. Does she agree that it is important that those who work John Pugh (Southport) (LD): I also congratulate the in the Liverpool pathway are highly skilled? If such care hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) on is left in the hands of those who are less skilled, there is introducing this important debate in such a measured a possibility that what could be termed voluntary euthanasia and sympathetic way. It was effective indeed. will take place. Does she agree that only highly skilled I do not like the term “Liverpool care pathway”; I people should be involved in the Liverpool care pathway? prefer talking about guidelines for palliative care. That is probably a less contentious way of discussing it. The Fiona Bruce: I do, and this is where training is so Liverpool care pathway was developed in Broadgreen, important. Without the proper application of the Liverpool and I was born in Broadgreen. More importantly, my care pathway, death can be hastened, and that is not the grandmother died there, having been readmitted several intent of the pathway. Occasionally, even with correct times. The last time she was admitted she had declined application, it can be the unintended consequence—for somewhat at home and I can remember the expression example, through the use of narcotics to alleviate severe of horror on her face indicating that that was not the discomfort and facilitate a more peaceful passing. right way to treat her. She knew that she was going to die and she wanted to die at home, and she was being I wholeheartedly welcome the Minister’s decision to admitted unnecessarily to hospital. I regret that we hold an independent public inquiry into the LCP. I have arranged for that to happen. It is very important to get met him, and I thank him for his open-minded, calm the last years, months and weeks of people’s lives and reasoned approach and for the fact that he has had correct and we certainly did not; hence there is a need ears to hear concerns about the LCP. Without wishing for things such as the Liverpool care pathway and a to prejudge the terms of the inquiry, may I make the more understanding, measured and sensible approach following suggestions for it to consider? to affairs. First, a number of pressures might subvert the proper There is a need for the hospice movement, but the implementation of the LCP, and I am grateful to Professor reality is that most people do not die in hospices; they David Albert Jones of Oxford, who is an authority on die in the NHS and there is a need for the NHS to have this topic, for highlighting them. He says they are: some clinical guidelines to follow. That is particularly “the subjective character of judgments about how soon someone the case for those in their last hours, day, weeks and is going to die…the fact that the LCP may be initiated by people months, whose death is imminent and who cannot have who are not senior clinicians familiar with the individual patient’s that death prevented or, realistically, postponed. That is case and have not consulted with palliative care physicians… quite a high threshold to be met, and finance should in the influence of managerial pressures to reduce bed occupancy …reluctance to face the difficulties of continuing care of certain no way come into meeting that threshold. When finance difficult patients…the euthanasiast outlook of some clinicians…the does come into it, it can only corrupt the process. The possibility of doctors or nurses regarding the LCP as a set of ‘tick Liverpool care pathway guidelines imply constant review boxes’…rather than assessing the needs of the patient…Other and no one wants that coloured by financial incentives. NHS organizational/staffing procedures or constraints”. After all, there is always the remote possibility of people He adds: getting the diagnosis wrong. “Research shows that care of the dying is poorest in the That is not a case against having guidelines at all or hospital setting” against thinking that we sometimes need to opt for a palliative choice rather than a remedial one, if there is in contrast to care in hospices, which I believe we all no realistic remedial choice available. If that choice has admire. to be made, there is no in-principle case for involving I also urge that the inquiry consider the following relatives and the patient in it, with the important caveat measures: that no patient should be placed on the LCP that what is done should be in the patient’s interest. I unless they are imminently, irreversibly and inevitably am not always sure there is an obligation to clarify the dying, which I understand to mean perhaps within situation for the patient or their relatives, if they prefer 36 hours; no one should be placed on the LCP without to die in hope or expectation of recovery and find the its being discussed with a designated relative or carer; thought of their inevitable demise insupportable, particularly every patient placed on the LCP must be continuously if it will not change clinical behaviour and the only monitored and reviewed by a multi-disciplinary team; option is palliative care for that person. That is a documentation must be simplified and standardised, so difficult issue, which every clinician needs to face and be that those implementing the LCP can easily follow the guided on in facing it. guidelines; training and supervision should be mandatory, There is certainly a need to inform the patient and/or as well as standardised and improved; non-clinical priorities relatives if expectations about care are starting to differ, in the use of the pathway must be eradicated and every or if the nature of the palliative care offered is unclear. patient must be treated solely according to their needs; That might be the case if a patient is wrongly categorised, payment for such care must be reconsidered; and the or if there is a debate about the palliative care itself, communication to relatives should be substantially and it is seen as substandard. Some of the episodes of improved. dehydration that have been described in the national I believe that, if it is well used, the LCP can improve newspapers have seemed to me to be substandard palliative standards of end-of-life care, especially in hospitals. It care. The bottom line is that palliative care should not should promote better palliative care and support the worsen the condition or augment the suffering of somebody kind of good death that we would all wish for ourselves who inevitably will die, unless the patient chooses it. In and our loved ones. I sincerely hope that the independent certain circumstances, I can imagine somebody trading inquiry will be a major step in facilitating that. pain for more life. 49WH Liverpool Care Pathway8 JANUARY 2013 Liverpool Care Pathway 50WH

Care can be worsened in two quite different ways: it or take away palliative care. We all want to relieve pain can be worsened by disruptive, painful, pointless, futile and we all want people to die with dignity, but there are interventions, and it can equally be worsened by neglect, serious concerns about the Liverpool care pathway and and indifference to people’s symptoms and the manner that is why this debate is so important. Those concerns of their decline. My aunt recently died in the Royal have been expressed by physicians. It was physicians— Liverpool, which has taken over Broadgreen. I remember ethicists—who started this debate, not the newspapers. going to her bedside and seeing the signs that said, “Nil The newspapers did not start the ball rolling and we by mouth”, and wondering whether we should offer her should be aware of that. Professor Peter Millard, emeritus a drink while we sat there and talked. We never managed professor of geriatrics at the university of London, and to get round to having a sensible conversation about Dr Peter Hargreaves, palliative care consultant at St Luke’s that with the medical staff. I was never sure what I was cancer centre in Guildford, have warned of the risk of confronted with. It might have been wise care; there “backdoor euthanasia”—their words—and that economic may have been a genuine risk of choking, which I factors are being included when treatment is considered. believe is one of the reasons why people are not given We must be aware of these concerns, which were originally liquids at that stage. It might just have been neglect or expressed by clinicians. However, I believe that it is one absence of thought. What did not happen—and should of the chief duties of those of us in this House who are have—was a discussion about treatment: a sort of not clinicians to speak up in defence of the vulnerable, negotiation. the voiceless and those who are sometimes forgotten. If palliative care is the path chosen—it should only It is simply unacceptable that vulnerable people, including be chosen when it is, in a sense, the only path—there the poor, the elderly and those who do not have close needs to be a negotiation. It is the trick of getting that friends and family to look after them, come to a premature negotiation right that is the difficult thing. We need to death—an unnecessarily early death. As my hon. Friend respect the rights of all people concerned, and the the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) and others patient’s rights sometimes differ slightly from the family’s have said, in numerous cases, even friends and family rights. The family fearing bereavement can only wish caring for a loved one have not been informed that they the patient to live at all costs. That may not always be have been put on the LCP. May I say that my hon. the patient’s aspiration in that circumstance. The hon. Friend’s speech was a wonderful speech? It drew on her Member for Montgomeryshire has started us along the personal experience and was one of the most moving path of having a measured discussion and review of speeches that I have heard in this place over many years. these matters and I hope it continues. I sat with my best friend, Piers Merchant, as he was Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): I dying; he was a former MP and my hon. Friend the respect what my hon. Friend says on communication Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry) will remember with the patient, but I would like to clarify something. him well. I saw the morphine being pumped through his A survey by the Marie Curie Palliative Care Institute body. I am sure that he died early—perhaps a few hours Liverpool and the Royal College of Physicians said that or even a few days early, I do not know—from the half of those on the LCP are never told that they are on morphine. Those of us who loved him wanted him to be such a pathway. Also, the LCP is not just a framework cared for properly, but we also did not want him, or any of good practice but a pathway, taking the patient of our loved ones, to be put on an irreversible path to towards the presumed outcome of death. Surely, therefore, death where that was avoidable. it is important to make it clear that there should be I welcome the statement by the Department of Health communication with the patient; it should not be only that it the best half who know. “has consistently made clear that care provision, including for John Pugh: That in part is the dilemma. I know that people at the end of life, should be based on need.” the saying is “No treatment about me, without me”, but But the question that we need to ask in this debate is there are certain circumstances that we will all be aware this: how are the Department’s intentions implemented of where the patient is dying and the clinician is in an on the front line of medicine and hospital care? No acute moral dilemma over whether to inform them that doubt there is wonderful care being given in many that is the case—that there is no hope and that they will hospices, but is that gold standard being replicated in all be given purely palliative treatment. I am fairly confident our hospitals? that a good number of people will die in our hospitals for years to come, despite the Liverpool care pathway or It is undoubtedly true that the LCP has led to the any other guidelines that we put in place, who will, until premature death—it may not be premature by much, but the moment of their decease, expect recovery. it is still a premature death—of as many as 130,000 hospital patients each year. This is a vital issue that we must Mr Mike Weir (in the Chair): We have just under address in this House; with 450,000 hospital deaths in 12 minutes left and two speakers to go. I ask that they Britain each year, that figure of 130,000 is about 29% of bear that in mind. the total number of hospital deaths. In fact, this is a frightfully serious issue. 3.28 pm Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): I am glad Robert Flello: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? to have this opportunity and I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) for raising this important subject. We all know that the Mr Leigh: Does the hon. Gentleman mind if I do not Liverpool care pathway was devised with the best of give way? I just want to make my speech and give my intentions. I assure my hon. Friend the Member for hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry) that none of us wants to end Devonport (Oliver Colvile) a chance to speak too. 51WH Liverpool Care Pathway8 JANUARY 2013 Liverpool Care Pathway 52WH

[Mr Leigh] to speak about the Liverpool care pathway, but neither are an awful lot of my constituents. Therefore, it is very Professor Pullicino, who was quoted earlier, has himself important that what we talk about today is how we can personally intervened to have a patient taken off the look after their interests, and the interests of others, in LCP who went on to be successfully treated. So, despite this regard. the fact that we must listen to clinicians, it is simply I am very aware of what kind of death I want to end impossible to determine satisfactorily that a patient has up having. Some six years ago, my father died while hours or days left to live, which is one of the worrying driving his car. He came out of his office, at the age flaws of the LCP. of 89, to go and have lunch with the Archdeacon of In November, an independent inquiry into the LCP Canterbury. My father had a massive heart attack, was announced, and I welcome that announcement. pulled over to the side of the road—thank goodness he My hon. Friend the Minister is doing his job extremely did not take anyone with him—and duly died. It was well in this regard, and we respect him as somebody just yards away from the church and I know very well who will genuinely try to get to the truth. He himself that God decided, probably in his infinite wisdom, that has said that there have been too many cases of patients the one thing that he was not going to do was allow my dying on the pathway while their families were not father, a former naval commander, to give the archdeacon informed, so he is quite right to zero in on that issue. He a difficult time. However, I am very aware that—frankly—an has said, “This is simply unacceptable.” I echo those awful lot of us do not have that kind of option about words and I hope that he will repeat them when he how we end up dying, if we have an option at all. Many winds up the debate. people find themselves having to go into hospital, and Of course there are people who speak on both sides dying there. of this issue, but I believe that any inquiry must be Many of us have a great deal of notice about dying. conducted by a suitable variety of individuals and not So, in the next few minutes, I want to talk about an just by supporters of the LCP. It is not good enough to individual constituency case that I had—an appalling state, as the Department of Health sometimes does, story about the death of the father of one of my that the LCP is not euthanasia. It might not be euthanasia constituents in the Derriford hospital in Plymouth. In and, of course, if it is implemented properly it is not doing so, I want to ensure that the public are aware of euthanasia. However, it has become obvious to many the controversial approach to ending life and that we people that the LCP can be employed, and indeed has have a discussion about it. been employed, in cases that are highly questionable. My constituent’s father went to Derriford hospital I say to those who have spoken today that what from Mount Gould hospital, which is also in Plymouth, worries me is this: why is it that the average time to in April 2011 because he had become bedridden. He death on the LCP is 33 hours? An identical figure for was put on the Liverpool care pathway without any average time to death was found in two consecutive food and water. That was supposed to last for up to two national audits that were conducted two years apart. In days, but he lived for 12 more days, finally dying on the view of many people, that shows that the LCP has a 8 May 2011. My constituent claims that during the time machine-like efficiency in producing death within 33 hours, that her father was on the LCP, he perked up and was and that is why some people say that the LCP is in effect even watching television. Despite that, he remained on a “lethal care pathway”. Statistics suggest that fewer the LCP. than 5% of patients put on the LCP are taken off it. Why only 5%? There is something wrong here, and the My constituent’s family feel, and I rather agree with inquiry needs to get to the bottom of it. them, that giving someone 12 days to die is not what I believe that we should appoint a member of the this system should be about. Although Derriford hospital judiciary rather than a medical expert, to carry out the claims that staff spoke to the family on the ward, my inquiry. Of course, they will have medical advisers, but constituent and her siblings dispute that. They claim we should appoint a member of the judiciary rather that they did not know that their father was on the LCP than just a medical expert to lead the inquiry, so that until the car park attendant told them. they can look at this complicated issue with a fresh To give Derriford hospital its due, the chief executive— perspective and a judicial mind. who is new to the job and was not at the hospital when Thank you for calling me to speak, Mr Weir. In this case happened—has dealt with the case subsequently, conclusion, I believe that we have a duty to instil recognising that the clinical teams may not have explained confidence in each of the citizens and residents of this fully to my constituent’s family what was going to country that they live in a society that believes in their happen and what was actually involved in the LCP. The inviolable dignity as human beings, and that takes the family feel that they were forced to watch their father necessary steps to ensure that they are cared for and die under very distressing circumstances. Despite having looked after when they are ill, especially in the closing his food, water and medication withdrawn, the family moments of their life. were horrified to see him biting the sponge that was being used to wipe his lips, because he was so hungry and thirsty. 3.35 pm Unfortunately, my constituent has also had a subsequent Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) —and completely different—experience of the LCP (Con): Thank you very much indeed, Mr Weir, for when her brother-in-law died at a hospice. It must be calling me to speak. It is a pleasure to serve under you. remembered that hospice staff are specialists in helping I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for patients at the end of their lives, and the more that we Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) on securing this important can encourage people who are suffering in that situation debate. I suspect that I am not particularly well qualified to be dealt with by hospices, the better. Certainly a lot 53WH Liverpool Care Pathway8 JANUARY 2013 Liverpool Care Pathway 54WH of hospitals are very busy indeed and their staff do not for as long as possible. It absolutely emphasises that necessarily have the time to carry out the kind of wherever possible patients must be involved in decisions checking that we feel they should do. about their care, and that carers and families should I am very aware that the death of a close relative is a always be included in decision making. Such involvement traumatic time. One should remember that patients’ of patients and families is enshrined at the very heart of relatives do not always take in the full story that they the Liverpool care pathway. are being told and that they can become confused about what they are being told. However, we must ensure that Robert Flello: Does my hon. Friend agree that if there a system is in place that avoids those kind of complications. is no consultation, and there is denial of care and of I am very aware that the Government are taking this treatment that eases pain, it is not the Liverpool care whole matter very seriously and I am grateful to them pathway? for that. I thank my hon. Friend the Minister and his colleagues for the review, about which he wrote to me Liz Kendall: I absolutely agree. The issue we face is just today, and their proposal to produce a new pledge less about the pathway itself and absolutely about how on care planning. To help my constituent, and many it is implemented in practice. The pathway document other people like her, we need to ensure that we have a states on its very first page that the pathway is only as timetable for that. good as the teams who use it. I pay tribute to bereavement charities, such as Cruse There has clearly been an issue about taking a pathway Bereavement Care. They do an enormously good job in that was developed by experts in one part of the country helping families through the whole grieving process. I over several years, with regular training and audit, and ask for more training, and for more information for trying to implement it across the wider NHS. Individual families so that they can be assured that their relatives patients and families—as we have heard—and also the will get the best care possible. By giving detail to the national audit of the Liverpool care pathway, suggest Government’s proposals, the Minister would be giving that there are genuine problems with communication. certainty to Benjamin Franklin. Members might remember Too many patients and families are not properly informed that he wrote, in a letter to Jean-Baptiste Le Roy in about what the pathway is and how it works, and they 1789, that the only things we can be certain of are birth, are not effectively involved and their consent not sought death and taxes. at every stage and on all the necessary decisions. One incident in which patients and families are not fully and 3.40 pm sensitively involved is one too many. It is not acceptable, Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab): It is a pleasure to and it directly contradicts the very essence of the Liverpool serve under your chairmanship, Mr Weir. I congratulate care pathway and its key principles and values. the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) on securing this extremely important debate and on his Rosie Cooper: Will my hon. Friend give way? heartfelt but calm and thoughtful opening speech, which set exactly the right tone. How we care for the dying is a Liz Kendall: If my hon. Friend does not mind, I will measure of how we care for all sick and vulnerable not give way as I do not have much time. people. It is a litmus test not only for the NHS and the I welcome the fact that the issues are now being wider care system but for society as whole. looked into. I understand that three separate reviews This debate comes at an important time because, as are being undertaken. The national end-of-life care the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire said, in recent programme is doing a short, snapshot review of complaints months growing media attention has been paid to the about the use of the Liverpool care pathway, the Dying Liverpool care pathway. Several Members have talked Matters coalition is working with families whose loved about the misconceptions and the inaccurate information ones have been on the pathway, to see what worked well that has been published about it. I have read the recent and what did not, and the Association for Palliative consensus statement from 22 patient and professional Medicine and a range of other national organisations organisations and also the full care pathway documentation, are talking to clinicians, to get their opinions regarding and it is clear to me that the Liverpool care pathway is integrated care pathways in the last days of life, of not in any way about ending someone’s life but about which the Liverpool care pathway is one. supporting the delivery of excellent end-of-life care. In November, the Minister said he would appoint an The pathway does not seek to replace clinical judgment; independent chair to co-ordinate the work of the different it is not a treatment but a framework for good practice. reviews, so I ask him: has a chair now been appointed? It does not seek to hasten or indeed delay death, but to Will the chair, the Department of Health or any other ensure that the right type of care is available for people organisations consider any additional issues, alongside in the last days or hours of life, when all the reversible the work that is under way? For example, will the way in possibilities for their condition have been considered. I which the Liverpool care pathway is paid for be reviewed? do not believe that it is a deadly or lethal one-way street. It is important that hospitals receive proper payment Precisely because it is not always easy to tell whether for the care they give and for any associated training, someone is very close to death, the pathway emphasises but any evidence that patients are being put on a the need for constant and regular review, and if a pathway for financial reasons is a serious matter and is patient’s prognosis changes, their care needs should be totally unacceptable. reassessed and, if appropriate, the use of the pathway Will there also be a review of the education and stopped. training in end-of-life care for new and existing staff, in The pathway does not preclude the use of clinically particular training in how to discuss difficult, complex assisted nutrition or hydration; in fact, it explicitly and emotional issues with patients and their families? states that patients will be supported to eat and drink One of the real challenges is that the process of death 55WH Liverpool Care Pathway8 JANUARY 2013 Liverpool Care Pathway 56WH

[Liz Kendall] do justice to every contribution, so as soon as I possibly can, I will write to all the Members who have taken and dying is so uncertain. A patient’s prognosis is not part, to update them. always clear; the situation changes. Doctors are used to I take the Liverpool care pathway extremely seriously. treating and curing, giving clear evidence, treatment It has been much discussed recently: many hon. Members and advice—or they are trained to do so—but it is not and members of the public have written to the Department always possible. of Health expressing their concerns, and there have I want to finish on a broader point, which is important been numerous parliamentary questions, too, all of for us in this House. The difficulty that NHS and care which stems from a lot of media interest over the past staff, the media, families and the public have in discussing few months. Several stories have appeared discussing end-of-life care reflects wider society’s lack of familiarity the ways in which the LCP is used and what it is for. In with death and dying, which was not the case 100 years particular, there have been a number of reports in the ago. Age, cause and place of death are generally very media alleging that patients are being placed on the different now from what they were at the beginning of LCP secretly, with no consultation with them or their the last century, when a far greater proportion of deaths relatives. It has been suggested that the LCP routinely occurred in childhood or early adult life, often from involves medical staff withdrawing treatment, including acute infections, with most people dying at home. Now, food and fluids, from patients. Perhaps most seriously, more than two thirds of the 500,000 deaths a year are the LCP has been accused of being a way to kill patients among people aged over 75, most of them following a to save the NHS money. There have been suggestions long-term illness such as heart disease, cancer, stroke, that the Department of Health bribes hospitals with chronic respiratory disease or dementia, and most are extra money for every patient placed on the pathway. in hospitals and care homes. Those accusations paint a misleading picture of the Many people do not, therefore, experience the death purpose of the Liverpool care pathway, yet I take of a loved one until they are well into mid-life. We do seriously the concerns raised by the families of patients not see dying people and dead bodies—not for real. We who have experienced extremely poor end-of-life care. I see them on television and in computer games but not am horrified by some of the stories that people have in real life, and we do not talk openly in society about told me about the withdrawal of food and fluids from death. I know that in all our families it is difficult to sick relatives in hospital and about the failure to inform discuss death, but in the century of the ageing society, loved ones that the patient has been placed on the with chronic conditions as the major cause of death and pathway. disease, that must change. The hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) spoke As the hon. Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry) movingly of her experience, and I am pleased that she said, death comes to us all, and we should strive for as came to the round table that I held to discuss those good a death as possible. That will, of course, mean concerns. As the hon. Member for Gainsborough different things to different people—I would like to go (Mr Leigh) made clear, the concerns are legitimate and quickly, and I hope that the people I love go quickly, should be taken seriously, not dismissed because of too, and do not have a long, slow death. exaggerated reporting. What happens on the front line and how we translate theory into practice are so important. Rosie Cooper: We will not be bumped off. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Southport (John Pugh). I dislike the jargon: what on earth does Liz Kendall: Indeed, or have a premature death. For “Liverpool care pathway” mean to patients and their many of us, a good death means being treated as an families? We must use language that ordinary people individual with dignity and respect, without pain and understand, particularly at a most traumatic time for all suffering wherever possible, and in a familiar environment involved. That is one thing we need to address. surrounded by the people we love. We need a full and One aspect of care that receives almost universal frank debate about these difficult issues, handled calmly praise, as the hon. Members for Banbury (Sir Tony and sensitively and based on evidence and fact rather Baldry) and for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg than on myths and misconceptions. Dying matters, not Hillier) have made clear, is the hospice movement, which just to the NHS and the wider care system but to us all, grew from Dame Cicely Saunders’s belief that, however and for that reason I am grateful to the hon. Member ill, people matter at the end of their life and should for Montgomeryshire for securing the debate. never be abandoned. That is why the Marie Curie Palliative Care Institute Liverpool, led by Professor 3.48 pm John Ellershaw, developed the Liverpool care pathway in the late 1990s. The pathway was designed to transfer The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman the principles of hospice care—the shadow Minister, Lamb): I do not have a Parliamentary Private Secretary the hon. Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall), sitting behind me, and I am most grateful therefore to made this point—so that terminally ill patients always you, Mr Weir, for your assistance with some Members’ get the best treatment, even if they do not receive constituencies. specialist palliative care. I congratulate the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire The Liverpool care pathway is not a treatment but a (Glyn Davies) on securing the debate, and on the sober, framework for managing treatments, which is important serious and rational tone he deployed in his contribution. to understand. As the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire The whole debate, in fact, has been exemplary in that made clear, the LCP, when used correctly, is one way to regard. I suspect that all of us in this room are after the ensure that the last hours or days of a patient’s life are same thing; it is how we secure it that matters so much. I as comfortable as possible. The guidance for using the have just over 11 minutes, which is not really enough to LCP makes it clear that the aim is to support, not 57WH Liverpool Care Pathway8 JANUARY 2013 Liverpool Care Pathway 58WH replace, clinical judgment. Sometimes there are questions involvement of their family and sometimes without any about clinical judgment, but not about the pathway notification, which is totally unacceptable. Yet again, itself. we see how right Dame Cicely Saunders was when she The Liverpool care pathway guidance sets out the said: following objectives and considerations for taking care “How people die remains in the memory of those who live on”. of patients: determining whether any further medications The impact is profound. My wife works for Cruse and tests would be helpful; ensuring that the patient is Bereavement Care, which does magnificent work helping as comfortable as possible—surely we all agree with people who have suffered bereavement. We have a duty that; helping the patient to take on food and drink for to give such people the best possible experience as they as long as possible, which means not denying them food lose a loved one. and drink, as we sometimes hear; and taking care of the On 26 November, I hosted a round-table meeting patient’s spiritual and religious needs, which is of acute with patients, families and professionals—both supporters importance to many people. The guidance reminds and critics of the pathway were represented—and at clinicians that unnecessary treatment or tests may cause that meeting I announced that we will appoint an harm rather than good. independent chair to consider how the LCP is used and The guidance states that regular review is acutely experienced and to examine the accusations made in the important. If their condition improves, the patient should press. We expect to announce the chair of that review be taken off the pathway. The 5% figure to which the very soon, and we expect that the chair will want to hon. Member for Gainsborough referred is of concern identify a small panel of independent experts from a and should be considered; it is essential that the medical range of backgrounds, including representatives from team discusses the pathway with the patient, their family faith groups, which is important. I reassure hon. Members or their carers. Those people need to be fully involved in that the review will be independent. decisions about end-of-life care, even though those The Liverpool care pathway is internationally recognised discussions may be very difficult. Obviously, those as good practice, and it is widely supported by organisations conversations need to happen as quickly as possible. involved in end-of-life care. If people do not feel that The Liverpool care pathway can work as intended they have received the best care or, worse, if patients only if each patient is fully consulted, unless that is not cease to trust the pathway, that is a problem that needs possible. Even then, the family must be fully involved. to be addressed. Through his interventions, the hon. Member for Stoke- Training is fundamental, as the hon. Members for on-Trent South (Robert Flello) made that point strongly. Hackney South and Shoreditch and for Congleton and The opening section of the information sheet that comes the shadow Minister said, and it will be considered as with the pathway cites the absolute importance of discussion part of the review. The review will systematically examine with the family. Staff must talk to the patient and their the experience of the Liverpool care pathway by patients, family as much as they need and want, to explain what families and health professionals, and it will seek evidence is happening and why. That is non-negotiable. Any to support or refute the accusations and to see where failure to do so is completely unacceptable. improvements might be needed. The review will hear The hon. Member for West Lancashire (Rosie Cooper) directly from families. There will be a session dedicated mentioned documentation, which is best practice and to families so that they can tell the panel about their should always happen so that everyone can see what has experiences. been discussed. She also mentioned the constitution, The review will also consider the role of financial and we are considering how we can give it greater incentives in the use of the LCP. Like my hon. Friend traction. There is a sense that everyone agrees with the the Member for Southport, the hon. Member for West constitution, but what value is it? How can we make the Lancashire and others, I have concerns about the use of constitution provide real power to patients in the NHS? financial incentives. The review will report both to the I agree with the shadow Minister’s concerns about Department of Health and to the NHS Commissioning translating across the whole system something that has Board by the summer. been designed by experts. Such translation can be Everyone wants their loved ones’ final hours to be as problematic and needs further attention. pain-free and dignified as possible. Used as intended, the Liverpool care pathway can help achieve that. The Rosie Cooper rose— pathway prioritises comfort, dignity and appropriate care, but all that is undermined if the public distrust the Norman Lamb: I am conscious that time is tight. I pathway and if clinicians do not apply it properly. We will write to the hon. Lady. If she wants to raise issues do not dismiss people’s concerns, which I take extremely with me later, I will be happy to address them, but I seriously. Instead, we have to ensure that care in the last need to respond to the debate. few days and hours of life is always of the highest From what people have said, it is clear that there standard. Reinforcing the absolute importance of involving are too many cases where patients have been put on patients and their families in discussions on their care the pathway without proper explanation, without the and treatment is essential. 59WH 8 JANUARY 2013 Education Funding (Cambridgeshire) 60WH

Education Funding (Cambridgeshire) than it ought to be. I can see why people in expensive areas could argue for more funding—teachers must be paid enough to be able to afford to live near their 4pm schools—but Cambridge is a very expensive area. The Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): It is a pleasure Cambridgeshire Schools Forum has been campaigning to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Weir. I am delighted for a number of years to narrow the funding gap to have secured this debate on an issue affecting every between the higher and lower-funded local authorities. I pupil in Cambridgeshire. have been delighted to support it over many years, both when I served on Cambridgeshire county council and Educating our young people to the highest possible now as MP for Cambridge. standard is vital for a fair and stable society. Every child should be given an equal and fair opportunity and Two years ago, on 7 February 2011, I raised the issue educated to the best of their ability, no matter what in education questions: their skills. Education should be the priority. Whatever “Cambridgeshire gets less school funding per pupil than almost financial situation that we find ourselves in, we must anywhere in the country. If we received the per pupil average across England, we would have some £34 million more for education. never bankrupt our children’s future. They get only one Can the Secretary of State explain why pupils in Cambridgeshire shot. deserve so much less money, and will he review that?” The pupil premium was on the front page of the The Secretary of State for Education replied: Liberal Democrat manifesto, and we are now delivering “They deserve to be treated like every other student. We are it in government. In Cambridgeshire, our schools are reviewing funding and will be publishing a paper in the spring to getting £1.8 million to help 2,100 children from poorer try to ensure greater equity in the allocation of schools funding.”— backgrounds get a good start in school, with critical [Official Report, 7 February 2011; Vol. 523, c. 19.] flexibility for heads to work out how best to spend it for I agree with everything that he said. Pupils in their pupils. Every child deserves a fair start in life. Cambridgeshire deserve to be treated like every other However, Cambridgeshire has a systematic problem student. That is all we ask. with basic funding for pupils. The Cambridgeshire Schools Forum and I, and many Ever since the Tory county council under Baroness others, were delighted by the promise of greater equity Blatch cut funding for schools in the 1980s, Cambridgeshire in the allocation of schools funding. We know that it schools have been consistently under-resourced. Her takes time, and we know that we may not end up exactly cuts have been perpetuated, as central funding for schools at the English average, but a commitment to greater has been based on previous years’ funding, with no equity was what we wanted. opportunity to close the gaps that have grown. The Tory cuts have been perpetuated by the Labour Government Instead, the gap has widened. We receive £600 less and this Government so far. Children now are paying per pupil than the English average for schools block for poor decisions made in the ’80s. funding, and with 73,800 pupils, according to the Department for Education’s figures, so we are now Pupils in Cambridgeshire get far less funding than short by £44.3 million across the county, compared with pupils almost anywhere else in the country. In 2009-10, the English average. For an average two-form entry Cambridgeshire got £34 million less funding than the primary school, that is a difference of £250,000 a year English average, and that trend has continued. For the in funding—enough for seven teachers on average pay. financial year 2012-13, the dedicated schools grant placed Alternatively, the money could be spent on more teaching Cambridgeshire 143rd in funding out of 151 local assistants, better teaching materials, more activities or authorities. That funding covers nursery provision, better school buildings; there are so many options. Yes, mainstream schools, special schools and all high-needs the national budget is limited, but Cambridgeshire kids pupils. deserve what everyone else gets. The Government’s new approach makes the problem We had hoped that the national funding reforms even more obvious. Basic school funding is, reasonably might start to address those inequalities. However, it and sensibly, being separated out from early years and now appears that the earliest any such change might high-needs funding, so that people can see what is be possible is 2015-16. That is having a real effect happening. The schools element of the funding for on children’s lives. Philip Hodgson is chair of the 2013-14 gives Cambridgeshire the least of any of the Cambridgeshire Schools Forum, and I served with him 151 local authorities, at £3,950 per pupil per year. The as a governor. He says that English average is £4,550. “standards in Cambridgeshire are slipping in some areas or not What possible reason can the Government give for improving at the same rate as better-funded local authorities. why pupils in Cambridgeshire deserve 13% less funding Cambridgeshire schoolchildren will suffer from the underfunding than the rest of the country? Other than historical for even longer unless action is taken now to begin the introduction accident—I hope that the Minister agrees that it is of fair funding”. wholly wrong to punish kids now for political decisions The gap in Cambridgeshire is widening because there is made in the ’80s—why do pupils in Surrey, not enough resource to close it. Buckinghamshire, Essex, Bedfordshire, Hertfordshire I have been in contact with my local head teachers to and Peterborough deserve more cash? ask them about their individual situations. They are Of course schools serving more challenging communities positive about the pupil premium. Many heads have should receive more funding, but that is supposed to be said that it allows them to do things they had never been addressed, at least in part, by the pupil premium, and able to do before. At Chesterton community college, for Cambridgeshire has challenging communities. Educational example, the principal, Mark Patterson, has been able attainment in the north of Cambridge and the north of to fund specialist reading teachers to deal with the the county, in the fenland area, is significantly lower handful of pupils who reach secondary school every 61WH Education Funding (Cambridgeshire)8 JANUARY 2013 Education Funding (Cambridgeshire) 62WH year unable to read at an appropriate level. Rather than advantaged areas of the country. Almost three quarters having them continue to fall behind, he can give them of those colleges are rated as either good or outstanding the right support to keep up, which is fantastic. However, by Ofsted. all the heads are concerned about the tightness of the Hills Road sixth form college does phenomenally funding that they in Cambridgeshire face. well at getting pupils into Oxbridge, beating every school Chris Beddow of Abbey Meadows says: in the country, other than Westminster and Eton, which is a great achievement for a state-funded school. The “As a school serving a challenging demographic area, we state sector can work wonders at much lower cost than receive a considerable amount of extra funding. However, when any private education, but it needs appropriate funding compared to a school of similar size in Peterborough, we receive £80,000 less, due to funding differentials between authorities. and does not get that. How is this justifiable as our costs are the same? Cambridge is Sixth-form colleges face particular inequity. They growing and as a school we are building extra capacity and have to pay VAT on goods and services, with a couple of growing. This year will see our numbers grow by 10%; however, exemptions, whereas schools and academies are reimbursed our funding will only grow by 6%. Again, I fail to see how this gap for those costs. That costs the sixth-form college sector is justifiable.” some £30 million per year—about £320,000 per college— To give another example, I recently heard from Steve which could be spent on education. Can the Minister Jordan, the head teacher of St Paul’s primary school in try to persuade the Treasury to fix that bizarre discrepancy, my constituency. The school, which is small, has been which also applies to regional colleges? Anne Constantine working on an extremely tight budget. Although it has of Cambridge regional college highlights that been just about able to stay in the black, it has had to “The VAT bill on revenue spend at this college in the last financial keep eroding its reserves to do so. It has a capital budget year was £1.2 million of non-recoverable VAT, most of which was of about £7,000 a year. The school’s management cannot incurred in relation to 16-18 learners, a sum” maintain the standard of the school site as they wish. that could be reinvested in learning if they were treated The school field needs replacing. It is becoming a health the same as schools. and safety hazard, with rubble beneath the soil gradually working through, and drainage is being affected by tree Pupils at sixth-form colleges are ineligible for free roots in the pipe work, which the school cannot afford school meals. Will the Minister support the Association to repair. It is shocking that schools such as St Paul’s of Colleges “No free lunch” campaign to ensure that are so stretched that they cannot carry out small but students in sixth-form colleges get the same as they necessary repairs. It is not a new problem; it has happened would at a maintained school sixth form, an academy, a because decades of under-investment have compounded free school, a university or a technical college? it in those schools. Sixth-form colleges are funded less than the alternative providers, and that funding is also being reduced. Hills I welcome the Government support for new school Road sixth-form college, for example, devised a plan to buildings. Cambridgeshire has a demographic bulge at cope with average funding of £4,500 per student—a the moment, and the county is frantically opening new fairly small amount, compared to what is available at primary school places to cope. The bulge will then move key stage 4 in a number of other providers—but the on to secondary school, and we will then need financial more recent announcement of a simplified pro-rata support to deal with that. I specifically welcome the funding scheme from 2016-17, at a rate of £3,900 per inclusion of the Manor school in the Government’s student, means a further 13% budget cut. That pro-rata priority school building programme. It will make a huge funding system is a redistribution of funding between difference to the school, which was visited by the Minister’s 16-to-19 institutions and not a national cut—it does not predecessor, and the services that it can provide. It is save money for the national purse—but it means that especially welcome because it will be a grant, not tied to sixth-form colleges, such as Hills Road, that deliver any PFI constraints. While I am mentioning the Manor, large programmes with high success rates will lose heavily. I pay tribute to Ben Slade, the school’s former principal, They will no longer be able to act as an exemplar in the who was energetic and inspirational to many pupils and state system. others. The new figure of £3,900 per pupil per year is less Our problem with schools is that the deal is simply than available at key stage 4, but must be used for the unfair. In Cambridge, there is a range of 16-to-19 much wider aspirations of those aged 16 to 19. It does education providers, including the excellent Cambridge not allow for enrichment activities and does not cover regional college, which will sponsor the new university extra costs of subjects, such as experimental sciences, technical college in Cambridge, and two sixth-form and does not allow pupils to have funding to study a colleges, Hills Road and Long Road, which educate fourth A-level, which is particularly important for those thousands of 16 to 19-year-olds to a consistently high who want to do double maths and go on to study standard. I have spoken to both principals, Linda Sinclair sciences at a number of universities. A particular problem and Chris Sherwin. They describe a funding situation in is that sixth-form colleges cannot cross-subsidise between which they are struggling to keep their heads above different age groups, because they have only have a water. narrow intake. The problem is not unique to Cambridgeshire. Sixth A particular issue affects Long Road sixth-form college. form colleges across the country are suffering from There is large growth in sixth-form places, as schools the same problems. Although there are only 94 sixth- and academies expand into sixth-form provision, benefited form colleges in England, they educate more than 150,000 by their financial advantages over sixth-form colleges, 16 to 19-year-olds and send more people to higher but without the matching increase in the numbers seeking education than independent schools, with almost a to go on to sixth form. That makes the financial pressures third of those young people coming from the least far worse at Long Road, for example, and both Hills 63WH Education Funding (Cambridgeshire)8 JANUARY 2013 Education Funding (Cambridgeshire) 64WH

[Dr Julian Huppert] national funding formula. We are still committed to doing that. I will explain later precisely how we will Road and Long Road colleges are facing serious cuts to deliver that in the years ahead. their budgets. That will affect their ability to provide the I am happy to meet my hon. Friend, head teachers quality of education that their students deserve. and college principals from his constituency in the It is not even clear how these changes will affect those weeks ahead if he feels that there are further points to colleges. Institutions that currently deliver larger than be made about funding fairness for Cambridgeshire average-sized programmes, such as Hills Road, will have and the other issues that he has mentioned, and should to reduce them by 2016-17 to match the new funded he want the opportunity for head teachers and principals level. That will have to be managed gradually over the to put those points directly to me. next three years, because the prospect of doing it all at I am grateful for the opportunity to address the once in 2016, as they face the cliff edge, would be too important concerns that were raised today, which will painful to contemplate. Can the Minister confirm whether be of interest to many families in Cambridge and institutions that reduce their programme sizes gradually Cambridgeshire and many of the people who work in over three years will be fully protected until 2015-16, in the educational establishments that my hon. Friend terms of funding per learner, by the formula protection mentioned. mechanism, or will they be penalised for trying to avoid We intend to move to a fairer funding formula across a cliff edge? Can he confirm—this is an issue for Long the country, and I will explain how we will do so. Our Road in particular—whether guided learning hours that aim is for every child to be able to succeed at school, are focused on enrichment, rather than specifically on regardless of their background and where they live. qualifications, will also be included in that protection? That is why the Government, despite having to make If the Minister needs further details, I am sure that the difficult decisions on public spending since we took principals will be delighted to talk to him. power in May 2010, have protected pre-16 school funding Sixth-form colleges are not clear how their funding in real terms over the spending review period. As part of will operate. They need certainty. They are also concerned that, we introduced the pupil premium, which we advocated about the combined impact of all the changes happening in our general election manifesto and which, by the end at once. The decrease in income due to the decrease in of this Parliament, will have targeted an additional student numbers as a result of expanded post-16 provision £2.5 billion per year to disadvantaged pupils. without demographic growth, the continued removal of My hon. Friend mentioned how much additional entitlement funding and the decrease in income as a money his county—his constituency—is receiving. He result of the new funding methodology will all hit at the will be pleased to know that the per-pupil amount of same time, and they are already being hit. The 2011-12 the pupil premium will be rising from some £623 per funding impact survey of sixth-form colleges showed pupil in the current recent educational year to £900 per that almost half of sixth- form colleges have already pupil in the year that we are heading into, which will be had to drop courses. Several reported that science, a big help to many educational institutions with a large technology, engineering and mathematics courses were number of disadvantaged youngsters. However, we need removed from the curriculum, and a quarter indicated an underlying system to support that investment and to that at least one modern foreign language had been ensure that pupils are not disadvantaged as a result of a dropped. They are also having to reduce or remove national school funding system that, frankly, does not enrichment activities, such as sport, music and drama distribute funding fairly. and careers guidance. My hon. Friend has highlighted some reasons why Schools and sixth-form colleges in Cambridgeshire the current system for funding schools is in desperate do a good job on limited resources. I am not asking for need of reform. It is based on an assessment of need favours or special treatment. I simply ask for fairness: that dates back to at least 2005-06 and it has not kept fair funding for Cambridgeshire pupils, so that they no pace with the changing demographics and needs of longer get the least per pupil in the country, and fair pupils. It is also complicated, so head teachers, governors treatment for sixth-form colleges, so they no longer face and parents are unable, usually, to understand how lower funding and higher costs that other providers. If their school budgets have been calculated and what the we are to build a strong economy and a fair society, we justification is. In addition, the current system is not must ensure that everyone can get on in life. designed to support the successful expansion of academies. Therefore, it is difficult to demonstrate that schools maintained by local authorities and academies are being 4.15 pm funded equitably, which is the Government’s intention. For the lowest-funded authorities, such as Cambridge, The Minister for Schools (Mr David Laws): It is a that outdated system may well mean an allocation that pleasure to serve under your chairmanship again, Mr Weir. does not reflect the current needs of schools in the I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge county.It is not right that schools with similar circumstances (Dr Huppert) on securing this important debate, which in different areas of the country can receive vastly will be of great interest in his constituency and in the different funding for no clearly identifiable reason. That county that he represents. I am grateful for the opportunity is why, on 26 March 2012, my right hon. Friend the to address a number of issues that he has raised. Secretary of State for Education announced our intention The Department accepts that Cambridgeshire is, on to introduce a new national funding formula during the our latest figures, the 143rd lowest-funded authority in next spending review period. That formula would distribute England. My hon. Friend knows that the Government money fairly across the country, targeting need and are determined to address the injustices in our funding getting rid of some of the anomalies that make the system and to seek, over time, to introduce a fairer current system so unfair and irrational. However, reforming 65WH Education Funding (Cambridgeshire)8 JANUARY 2013 Education Funding (Cambridgeshire) 66WH such a complex system—particularly in an environment I reassure my hon. Friend that we will carry out a where, for understandable reasons, all Departments’ thorough review this year of the impact of the new budgets are so constrained—is far from easy, and it is simpler formula on pre-16 funding, making any necessary important that we do it at a pace that schools can changes based on that evidence in 2014-15. Over the manage, including schools in parts of the country that coming weeks, we will start to work with local authorities have been better funded in the past. The last thing that to explore the effects of different factors, such as the we want is to cause destabilising changes to school lump sum and deprivation factors, so that we can budgets, which cause anxiety and distract schools from ensure that a robust system is in place for 2014. delivering high educational standards for their pupils. The Secretary of State announced on 2 July 2012 We are moving gradually towards introducing a new that, from April 2013, we are introducing a new national funding system at a pace that gives us sufficient time to funding formula for 16 to 19-year-olds in education and agree to the construction of a new formula and that training. That new formula will be based on the principle allows schools enough time to adjust to changes in their of funding per student, rather than the existing system funding arrangements. At present, we are planning to of funding per qualification, which my hon. Friend introduce the national funding formula in the next mentioned. That will allow sufficient income for each spending review period. In the meantime, from April, student to undertake a full programme of study, whether the local system will be simpler and more transparent, vocational or academic. meaning far less complexity for us to untangle when we come to address the national system. Our objective is to introduce a system of fair funding that will provide a place in education or training for Our first step is to ensure greater transparency and every young person who wants one and will support full consistency in the allocation of funding locally. For participation by 16 and 17-year-olds by 2015. The new 2013-14, the dedicated schools grant has been allocated formula will give many benefits, including taking into in three clearly identifiable spending blocks: schools, account the needs of the disadvantaged, implementing early years education and high-needs pupils. We set the recommendations of the Wolf report and supporting each block for each local authority using details of its the envisaged A-level reforms. The new formula will spending in 2012-13 and then agreed the blocks with fund full-time students for an average of 600 teaching each authority. The spending blocks provide greater hours, which will be sufficient to offer a significant transparency over how much has been spent in each of programme of study. The formula will mean that all those areas. students aged 16 to 19 will be funded using the same formula, removing the historical differences between We are also making changes to how funding is allocated schools and academies and sixth-form colleges. to schools, so that, within local areas, pupils to the age of 16 begin to attract similar funding regardless of I understand that some school sixth forms and sixth-form where they go to school. Moving to a more consistent colleges that offer a predominately academic programme way of funding schools may mean that local authorities to their students, such as Hills Road in my hon. Friend’s and their schools forums have to think radically about constituency, are concerned about their funding under how they distribute money to their schools, and a new the new 16-to-19 funding formula. I am aware of that local formula will inevitably generate shifts in school institution’s reputation, not only in Cambridge, but budgets. That may be uncomfortable, but if we can start across the country. In response to my hon. Friend’s to iron out some of the inconsistencies and unfairness question, I confirm that we will provide at least three that pupils and schools currently experience, that will years of full funding protection from the formula changes, ultimately help to pave the way towards a fairer, more while we continue our reform of qualifications, including pupil-led system. the forthcoming A-level reforms. I also confirm that the 30 hours currently focused on enrichment activities are Local authorities have worked hard under the new included in that protection. Detailed allocations of funding arrangements to build new formulae that adequately for 2013-14 will be announced in March. Arrangements reflect the needs of their schools. However, for some beyond 2014-15 will not be announced until the next areas, particularly Cambridge, that has proved problematic, spending review has been completed. As part of the and some schools are facing considerable budget changes. process, we have established a ministerial working group I also understand why in Cambridge, as a lower-funded with key sector representatives to consider the best way authority, my hon. Friend is worried about how the to implement the reforms to programmes of study and changes will be managed. Although the budget changes associated funding changes, as well as to help us to are necessary to reflect a new system, we are clear that ensure that the reforms work in the best interests of all they should not be unmanageable, not least in areas young people. such as his. That is why the Secretary of State announced in June that schools will continue to have planning My hon. Friend mentioned VAT, and I am sympathetic certainty through the minimum funding guarantee. to the concerns expressed about the different VAT treatment Therefore, in most cases, schools will not lose more than that sixth-form colleges receive from the Government. I 1.5% of their budget per pupil in 2013-14 and 2014-15, have asked officials to raise the matter with the Treasury and many schools will gain. In addition, the Secretary and Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and to report of State and I confirmed in October last year that we back to me. will continue to operate a minimum funding guarantee On free school meals, it is only the entitlement to a beyond 2014-15. We cannot confirm its exact value free meal that is different for schools and academies until the new spending review period, but we are absolutely compared with colleges. There is no actual funding committed to protecting school budgets from unmanageable given by the Department for free school meals for sixth- changes. form pupils, even in the school and academy sector, 67WH Education Funding (Cambridgeshire) 8 JANUARY 2013 68WH

[Mr David Laws] Charities (Donations) which complicates dealing with the injustice in entitlement. 4.30 pm We are currently looking at options for extending eligibility John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab): It is a further across the 16-to-19 sector. pleasure, Mr Weir, to serve under your chairmanship in We also seek to address concerns around capital this important debate. Towards the end of last year, funding, which my hon. Friend mentioned. We have charity donations had dropped by 20%, and one in six more than doubled the capital funding that will be charities said that they face closure in 2013. We rely on made available in this spending review period to support charities to support some of the most vulnerable people specifically the provision of additional places to those in our society, and when 73% believe that they are made available in the same period by the previous unable to fulfil their philanthropic goals because of lack Administration. We have made £2.8 billion available for of funding, there is real cause for concern. basic needs in this spending review. Most recently, in In May 2010, the Government launched their big last year’s autumn statement, the Chancellor announced society idea. The Prime Minister said that it was about £980 million of additional capital funding for basic allowing charities, social enterprises and companies to needs over the next two years. That will help us to provide public services, devolving power to neighbourhoods, expand good and outstanding schools where there are and making government more accountable. We are now shortages of places and to establish new academies and relying on charities to provide much needed support, free schools where there is that basic need. but only yesterday Sir Stephen Bubb, head of the I am grateful to my hon. Friend for drawing attention Association of Chief Executives of VoluntaryOrganisations, in this relatively short debate to the funding issues faced said: by schools and sixth-form colleges in Cambridgeshire. I “The reality many charities now face is crippling spending hope that I have provided some reassurance that our cuts”. aim in making these reforms is ultimately to ensure that The Government would like us to rely on charities, but England has a fair and transparent funding system they have neglected to support them in their time of precisely to deal with some of the injustices that areas need. What we need now is a Government initiative to such as Cambridgeshire may have suffered in the past. support, not one led by charities. In recent years, the A new national funding formula will reassess need public have become increasingly wary of giving to charities across the country and will allocate funding accordingly. following reports of aggressive campaigning. That may A refreshed distribution of funding will renew confidence be going too far, so we need innovative solutions to in the system, but only if we put the right formula in access gift aid money, instead of pestering people to give place. The Department is working actively on the issues more than they can afford. now in the run up to the spending review that will Some charities are the only providers for many people, happen before the summer, and it is a preoccupation of and sometimes they provide niche services to the most mine. I am happy to meet my hon. Friend and any vulnerable people in communities. The Marie Collins representatives from the education sector in his constituency Foundation provides support for children who have to discuss this further. suffered sexual abuse via the internet or mobile technology and has unique expertise in this area. The One in Four charity supports people who were sexually abused as children and is facing an unprecedented amount of work following recent media attention. It relies on donations and volunteers, yet 80% of its clients are referred by the NHS. It is clear that those charities play a role that is genuinely needed in our society. The problem lies in the reduction of grants and funding available to charities. The SHARE Community says: “There’s less money available from charitable trusts, and more competition for what there is.” This debate is not about the fundamental structural changes needed in Government financing to give better support to our charities, although I am sure that an assessment of how that works would be appreciated by many. It is about how to harness the British public’s generosity into a more successful donation record for charities, big and small. Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con): Will the hon. Gentleman give way? John Robertson: I am sorry, but the hon. Gentleman did not come to me before the debate, so I will not give way. People want to give, but they simply cannot afford to give as much as they used to. The problem is reaching breaking point. With the recent child benefit reductions and welfare reform at the forefront of hundreds of 69WH Charities (Donations)8 JANUARY 2013 Charities (Donations) 70WH thousands of people’s minds, charities are being stretched heavily on donations. Some significant costs on charities in two directions. For many families, the reduction in are not covered by project budgets, so they desperately income will mean they simply cannot afford to give as need unrestricted funding, primarily from donations, much as they used to, leading to reduced budgets for to stay alive. Funding from donations is also used to charities. We recently had a debate in the Chamber on develop research and to pilot new initiatives with young food banks, which are classic examples of the strain people, allowing the charity to grow and to increase its facing charities during the financial crisis. For example, effectiveness. Project budgets may be financed by in the last year, the Trussell Trust almost doubled the Government grants, but that is no good if the backbone number of food banks it oversees from 149 to 293. The of the charity is not supported by donations. BBC recently ran a report about a mother who is a Many charities also rely on the selling of unwanted full-time carer to one of her children and is relying on goods in shops around the country, but Age UK has that charity for emergency food parcels. Her words noted a 20% drop in doorstep donations of unwanted echoed those of many people throughout the country: goods, and I am worried that that will only increase as “I choose between whether to pay my electricity company...or the world moves to online shopping. Online marketplaces, feed my kids”. such as Amazon, make it easier and quicker to sell I am sure that the Minister is aware that I often unwanted items, and that is increasing. The British criticise energy companies for their selfishness when people are finding that they cannot get such books, raising their prices, and that should be addressed, but CDs and other items in charity shops, and the number we can help to ease the burden in the face of corporate of those shops will decline. Comic Relief and Sport greed by making it easier for charities, such as the Relief are doing an excellent job, but we cannot rely all Trussell Trust, to secure donations. Similarly, the the time on the money that they are raising. It is easier homelessness charity, Shelter, has seen an 80% increase for them to do so, but the lifeline and money that are in demand for homelessness services in the last three needed are not there. The fact that charities now have to years. Additional funding is needed immediately to consider UK problems as a more pressing priority support its work, and as we enter the coldest part of the means that international charities will get less, so there year more will be needed. will be a reduction in money to developing countries. Elderly people—I have many in my constituency—are Donations from UK residents are dropping, and I also struggling with cuts and rising living costs. In suggest that, if that trend continues, donations to charities Glasgow, there are now more senior citizens than 16-year- that distribute in the UK will be given priority by olds. That is a growing trend, and the growing proportion donors. That is shown by the food banks that we of elderly people will put more strain on our resources. discussed earlier. Charities such as the excellent Glasgow Old People’s Some things must be done. I was privileged to chair Welfare Association face rising demands on their resources the Committee that considered the Small Charitable and rely heavily on increased donations. We must support Donations Bill, which aimed to make gift aid simpler. their work so that they can support elderly people. However, in the face of such a crisis, that is simply not Demand on such charities will only increase as people enough. Charities employ the most successful fundraisers start to feel the pinch of years of austerity policies. and they are very good at what they do, but a few steps Last week, there were reports that a triple dip recession from Government could make a huge difference to the is feared, so 2013 will be a difficult year for many. More amount they receive. Over £750 million of gift aid goes and more people will turn to charities for support in unclaimed each year. It is clear that more needs to be their time of need. The Margaret Carey Foundation done to get that to those who need it most. says: “Were the charity sector to go into steep decline, the state Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): would have to step in or…just stand by and watch people suffer as That is a significant amount of money—£750 million a consequence of not having a support system.” unclaimed. Do my hon. Friend or the Minister have any Due to the enormity of Government cuts, I fear it idea where that money is and how it can be accessed by would be the latter. Supporting our charities is an charities, including a number of charities on my own absolute priority, but 20% say they fear they may close patch? Erskine, which looks after disabled service personnel, this year. We must do something urgently to secure their would very much welcome access to that kind of money. financing structures. Unlike many businesses, charities do not have the John Robertson: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. luxury of reserves to cover income shortfalls, and this The Erskine hospital fund is greatly supported by many year will be a breaking point. The Charities Aid Foundation companies, as well as many people in the Glasgow area, reports a £300 million deficit in the funds of more than but it may find that it does not get the funding that it 90% of small and medium-sized charities, and those not has had in the past. Perhaps the Minister could answer facing closure will reduce services. what happens to that £750 million. Please do not tell A key aspect of harnessing donations is to make me, Minister, that it goes back to the Treasury, when them more secure and effective, especially with the 20% people really need it and we can direct it to some of drop in the last year. It is increasingly difficult to get the those charities, rather than giving it to the Chancellor other 80%. Cystic Fibrosis Dream Holidays says: of the Exchequer. “It is becoming more and more difficult to raise the funds we We desperately need to modernise an outdated system. need. We seem to be doing twice the work to raise half the The fact that people fill in a gift aid form each and every income!” time they donate is ridiculous. We could have a central The Refugee Youth Project, a charity that provides database of gift aid donors, which would allow charities support to young people who have fled to the UK, relies to claim it much more easily. They could check their 71WH Charities (Donations)8 JANUARY 2013 Charities (Donations) 72WH

[John Robertson] that knowledge. The Government should work together with charities of all sizes to provide training on fundraising donor quickly and easily against the system, so that techniques and on the ways in which they can reach the they would not need to rely on people making extra full potential of each donation given. There is also a effort each and every time they donate. role for business to play in training, and employees We also need an awareness campaign on the gift aid should be encouraged to donate their time to smaller scheme. Many people do not use gift aid, because they charities to help them to modernise fundraising systems. simply do not know it exists. An awareness campaign We are facing a crisis in the economy and a knock-on could encourage thousands of people to take that extra crisis in the charity sector. People want to donate, but I step and allow gift aid, which is a great benefit to do not believe that they know the full potential of what charities, at no additional cost to the donor. If charities they can do. Charities provide a vital service that we were able to claim gift aid on doorstep donations, we cannot do without, and we need to tackle the problems could also mitigate the crisis with our charity shops. now before it is too late. I call on the Government to set Charities may see donations decreasing, but that step to work on a comprehensive strategy to save our charities. from Government could see smaller amounts of donations go further. Following the reduction in donations, Age UK has seen a real-terms reduction in potential income 4.47 pm of £750,000. Payroll giving—whereby money is taken The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Miss out of employees’pay packets—is also massively underused. Chloe Smith): I thank the hon. Member for Glasgow Only 2% of employees use it, and yet giving £10 could North West (John Robertson) for a thoughtful, wide- cost them as little as £5. We need to push that further, ranging speech, and I welcome the additional comments and education is needed. provided by the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire We also need to help charity donations to move into North (Jim Sheridan). I venture to guess that my hon. the new millennium. Many small charities cannot benefit Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Chris from text donations due to high—actual or perceived— White) was going to mention his valuable work on set-up costs. However, a key issue is that Apple, for introducing the Public Services (Social Value) Act 2012, example, does not allow direct donations from applications which I congratulate him on as well. on smart phones. That is ridiculous. It would be simple I turn to the comments made and the issues raised by to donate. The Government have been looking publicly the hon. Member for Glasgow North West in the debate into the issue since around 2011, so why has nothing today. I agree that charities play an important role in been done? our society, and I take this opportunity to extend my We also need the Government to act on data about thanks to the charitable organisations in this country donating habits. We know that older people donate that work so hard, and to those who work in them. more. Why, and how can we harness that? We know that They will be glad to see us taking these issues seriously younger people donate less. How can we target them in the House, and I know that there is much more that specifically? Are the Government scrutinising that data? we must do. We welcome the Innovation in Giving Fund, which will I start with a general point that the hon. Gentleman give rise to the use of new technologies targeting that will be well aware of. Matters pertaining to donations to group, but we need to ensure that any innovations are charities in Scotland are, of course, devolved matters. available to smaller charities as well. He is nodding, and he will know as well as I do that it is As our move towards new technologies may reduce for the Scottish Government to comment on those the role of our charity shop culture, we need to look at matters. Perhaps they have a clear idea of what they how we can move it online. It seems that the rise of wish to do in the long term in Scotland about such e-books, for example, is a huge blow to the second-hand things, but he and I can take that into a different debate book trade. With Amazon taking a huge profit from any time that he wishes. that technology—while paying no corporation tax, it I turn to the broad issue of current donations and the must be stressed—here is a chance for it to play a role in health of the sector, which was raised in the hon. facilitating a charity book culture online. Could Kindle Gentleman’s speech and in reports a short while ago. users donate their old books to a charity marketplace, Much has been said about the health of the sector and could they be resold with donations shared between generally, and I add that the picture is very mixed. Clear Amazon and chosen charities? Could the same work be trends are not easy to discern at this stage. The evidence done with music? We owe it to Britain’s charities to look of recent reports from the Charities Aid Foundation into how such a scheme might work, and how else suggests that charitable donations are down, while other online shopping could be used to benefit our voluntary evidence, such as the Taking Part survey commissioned organisations. We also need a way for people to identify by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, finds how their donations are distributed and what percentage that there is a slight increase in the proportion of people actually gets to the people who are being targeted. giving to charity. Similarly, the overall effect on the There is some concern that a small minority of charities health of the charitable sector is unclear. are not reputable. We believe that it is necessary to There are, however, grounds for optimism. Some encourage people to trust the majority of charities that reports suggest that the total income of registered charities truly help people. Therefore, I would like to see a central has grown from £52 billion in 2009 to almost £59 billion portal where we can see how reputable they are and how now and that there are 2,000 more registered charities donations are spent. now than in 2009. Those figures are to be welcomed and Finally, we need to protect our smaller charities. They cast an interesting light on the debate that we are having are often disadvantaged through a lack of expertise in here today. What appears clear is that no one can say for fundraising techniques. We need a system of sharing certain whether donations are decreasing and certainly 73WH Charities (Donations)8 JANUARY 2013 Charities (Donations) 74WH not at what rate. There is some debate in the sector medium-sized charities seem to be suffering the most, about whether a decrease is what charities are experiencing and they do not seem to have the access to gift aid that on the ground. the larger charities have. We will need to wait and see if there is a clear trend in donations, but regardless of what trends emerge, it is Miss Smith: I shall be very happy to answer that, but also true that life goes on. We need to acknowledge that first I shall take the other intervention. it is a challenging environment for charities and, clearly, for the people they serve. We should all make every Richard Fuller: On a similar note to what has been effort to help the sector to raise money efficiently and said by the hon. Member for Glasgow North West effectively to meet the challenges, and that is exactly (John Robertson), rather than looking to reform gift what we are doing. If the hon. Gentleman will allow me, aid, would my hon. Friend the Minister consider scrapping I will go on to deal with a couple of ways in which the gift aid entirely and putting in place a system whereby Government are seeking to play their part. people can make direct deductions from their taxation? If we want to create a culture of giving, nothing is The hon. Gentleman referred to face-to-face fundraising, better than letting people write a cheque to a charity. often referred to as chugging. That is certainly seen That is one way in which smaller charities would benefit, regularly in Norwich. Indeed, only recently I was rather than having to go through the more cumbersome corresponding with a constituent on exactly that matter. process of gift aid. It is an important and successful method of fundraising, which can bring millions of pounds into the charitable Miss Smith: My hon. Friend makes a fascinating sector every year, but I welcome the announcement in point, and I am always very interested to hear his ideas, November by the Public Fundraising Regulatory some of which I have time to debate at length with him Association and the Local Government Association of in this Chamber. I shall ensure that that idea goes where an agreed template for voluntary site management it can be well considered. agreements as a way for local authorities to control chugging in their areas. I think that more than 50 site In answer to the point made by the hon. Member for agreements are in place, with more being negotiated. Glasgow North West, the instigator of the debate, I think that the most important way to help smaller Much more is being done by this Government to charities is to reduce the costs and burdens associated support the sector, including by supporting a culture with what the state can provide to charities. That includes of giving both money and time—an important area of what we did in Budget 2011, which made it clear that we debate—by opening up new sources of income and intend to make it easier for charities to claim gift aid by finance through social investment or delivering public introducing a new IT system that will allow charities to services where organisations decide that that is right for claim gift aid online and through, as I mentioned, the them and by providing wider support for the sector, gift aid small donations scheme, which will allow charities thereby making it easier to set up and run a charity or of all shapes and sizes—we hope that it will be of social enterprise. All those actions support the health of particular benefit to small local charities—to claim the sector, either through increasing access to income top-up payments equivalent to gift aid on small cash of various kinds or through reducing costs and burdens, donations of up to £5,000 a year, without the need to so that that income goes further. have gift aid declarations from donors. That scheme The debate has focused on charitable donations, and should commence in April of this year, and as I mentioned, perhaps the biggest help that the Government give to it is expected that it will increase the amounts received the sector is gift aid, which the hon. Gentleman went by charities by about £100 million a year. It is my through in some detail. He will know that it is a matter sincere hope that it will be put to very good use by for the Treasury. Although I used to be that Minister, I smaller charities as well as others. would not dream of going on to such territory here today, but he did mention his pride in chairing the Jim Sheridan: Can the Minister confirm whether the debates in Committee on the gift aid small donations figure of £750 million is correct and, if it is correct, how scheme, and I was the Minister responsible for much of small charities in particular access it? the work on that and was deeply proud to be so, because it is a very good avenue of further help—up to Miss Smith: If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I £100 million a year, we hope—for the sector. I shall say shall have to write to him on the figures because I did more on that in a second. not catch the one that he was referring to. I will ensure I want first to deal with the administration of gift aid that he gets the correct Minister’s response to the figure and ways in which traditional gift aid can be made given. He does give me the opportunity to answer a better for the sector. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor question that was posed earlier: what happens to unclaimed of the Exchequer announced in the autumn statement gift aid? I think that both he and the hon. Member for that an examination would be carried out to identify Glasgow North West mentioned a £750 million figure ways to improve the administration of gift aid to reflect in that regard. If they will forgive me for making a new ways of giving money to charity and, in particular, particularly political point at this stage, it is important digital giving, to which the hon. Gentleman referred. to note that there is no such thing as a Treasury coffer that just sits there. There is no such thing as the Chancellor wishing to stockpile. There is every such thing as public Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con) rose— spending, and if money that is within the public finances is not spent on one thing, it is spent on another. That is John Robertson: I accept what the Minister is saying. a very important point to note. I could also note plenty I have no doubt that she is right and I think that gift aid of other things that past Governments failed to do with is a good idea. The problem is that the small and public spending, such as control it properly, but I think 75WH Charities (Donations)8 JANUARY 2013 Charities (Donations) 76WH

[Miss Chloe Smith] We are also supporting the sector to find other forms of income. We launched Big Society Capital with up to that what is most helpful in this debate is to come back £600 million. That is the world’s first social investment to the reasons why gift aid may be unclaimed. I want to institution. We have provided support with a wider return to that because I think that it is the constructive package of social investment measures. In addition, the area for us to debate. We need to ensure that everyone Cabinet Office recently published guidance entitled “Making who has a reasonable business claiming gift aid can do it easier for civil society to work with the state”, which so easily, without costs and burdens. brings together the range of reforms across the Government I want to go on to payroll giving. The Cabinet Office, and the wider public sector. That is aimed at making it the Treasury and Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs easier to set up and run a charity. Part of that is that will come together to produce a joint consultation charities and social enterprises should be able to shape document on payroll giving in due course. I hope that and deliver public services. that reassures the hon. Member for Glasgow North We are doing much to support charities to work West on some of his points. We are further supporting better, including finding sources of income, through the giving at the top end by ensuring that people who £30 million Transforming Local Infrastructure fund, to donate at least 10% of their estate to charity will be help 74 local support organisations to improve their eligible for a reduction in their inheritance tax bill from performance in supporting front-line organisations locally. 40% to 36%. That is an incentive to help giving as well. We have looked at the bureaucracy that frustrates charities The hon. Gentleman suggested a number of other and adds to their costs and expenses. We are making ideas to increase giving, and I am grateful for them. We good progress in implementing the recommendations will look at many of them; we will constantly look at on red tape that Lord Hodgson made in 2011 and are this issue. We are making £10 million available to the undertaking a red tape challenge for the civil society Innovation in Giving fund. Many of the schemes use sector. technology to further their aims. That fund will be I should like to make one brief point on the international delivered by NESTA—the National Endowment for aspect, which the hon. Gentleman’s comments very Science, Technology and the Arts. In England only, I interestingly turned to. I am sure that he would welcome, should note, the fund will find and support the growth in both the coalition agreement early on and yesterday’s of the most promising ideas with potential to create a mid-term review, the reinforcement of this country’s step change in giving. That is something that we can all aim to give 0.7% of our GDP to development aid. That welcome. is an important way to fulfil the aspiration that his In addition, the Institute of Fundraising, which is speech articulated, and we should not forget it. one of Government’s strategic partners, provides training The Government recognise that charities face a and guidance to small organisations on fundraising challenging time in the current economic conditions. issues. We are also doing much to support the giving of We will continue to work with the sector to help them. time and wider community action, such as through the National Citizen Service, which gives young people the Question put and agreed to. chance to do voluntary activities, meet new people and put something back into their communities. We are supporting Join In, to encourage people to volunteer 4.59 pm and get involved in local sports clubs. Sitting adjourned. 13WS Written Ministerial Statements8 JANUARY 2013 Written Ministerial Statements 14WS

Copies are available to hon. Members from the Vote Written Ministerial Office and to noble Lords from the Printed Paper Office. I would like to thank Matthew Kershaw for the work Statements he has carried out in producing his report. This is the first time the trust special administrator’s regime has Tuesday 8 January 2013 been used since the last Government introduced the provisions which were enacted in the Health Act 2009. In accordance with the legislation, in addition to producing BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS his recommendations on the future of the trust, Mr Kershaw has also been responsible for managing South London Competition and Markets Authority Healthcare NHS Trust and maintaining services for patients while the board is suspended pending the outcome The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and of the regime. I do not underestimate the demands this Skills (Vince Cable): I am pleased to announce Alex has placed on him. Chisholm as the new chief executive-designate of the In triggering this regime, the Government’s priority Competition and Markets Authority. This follows was to ensure that patients continue to receive high-quality, the appointment of Lord Currie as chair-designate on sustainable NHS services. At the time Mr Kershaw was 3 September 2012. appointed last July, South London Healthcare NHS Alex Chisholm will commence his appointment on Trust was overspending by £1 million a week. In the last 25 March 2013. His appointment will be subject to financial year, the trust had a deficit at over £65 million, parliamentary processes including the Enterprise and the largest in the country. Left to itself, the trust’s very Regulatory Reform Bill, which establishes the Competition severe financial position would have continued in a and Markets Authority, receiving Royal Assent and will downward spiral of continuing deficits and ultimately be for a five-year term. threaten the quality of care for patients across south-east The appointment has been made in accordance with London. the Civil Service Commissioner’s recruitment principles. The challenges facing South London Healthcare NHS Alex Chisholm is currently commissioner and Trust are complex and long standing. To date, it has not chairperson of the Commission for Communications proved possible to ensure that South London Healthcare Regulation, Ireland. He has been communications NHS Trust is able to secure a sustainable future for its commissioner since October 2007, and chairperson of services within its existing configuration and organisational the commission since February 2010. Since April 2011, form. The Government’s priority is to ensure the delivery Alex has also served as chair of the economic regulators of a long-term, viable solution for services provided by network in Ireland. the trust if it cannot be made sustainable. All responses The Commission for Communications Regulation to my predecessor’s statutory consultation on whether (ComReg) is the national regulatory agency responsible to trigger the regime, including from South London for regulation of the communications sector in Ireland. Healthcare NHS Trust itself, stated that a solution for the trust cannot be viewed in isolation from broader Prior to joining ComReg, Alex held a number of service provision within south-east London. executive positions in the media, IT and communications industries. He began his career at the Department for In accordance with my statutory duty, I will consider Trade and Industry and spent four years at the Office of the trust special administrator’s recommendations carefully Fair Trading, specialising in competition and the and make a final decision by 1 February that can secure communications and financial services sectors. sustainable services for the people of south-east London. In considering the recommendations, I will examine A copy of Alex Chisholm’s biography will be placed particularly: in the Libraries of both Houses. whether the recommendations are likely to provide a sustainable long-term financial position which will secure high-quality HEALTH services in the local area for the future; and whether the recommendations have regard to the Government’s four key tests for local service reconfiguration. These are South London Healthcare Trust support from GP commissioners, strengthened public and patient engagement, clarity on the clinical evidence base and The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt): support for patient choice. I wish to inform the House that the trust special Ultimately, my priority is to ensure that all NHS administrator appointed to South London Healthcare hospitals live within their budgets and achieve the best NHS Trust provided me with his final report on 7 January quality care, best patient outcomes and best patient 2013. It makes recommendations to me in relation to experience for all their NHS patients. securing a sustainable future for services provided by I will inform the House of my decision as soon as that organisation. reasonably possible afterwards. Details about the appointment of the administrator, Matthew Kershaw, were given in a written ministerial JUSTICE statement issued on 12 July 2012, Official Report, columns 47- 48WS. Victims Commissioner The report was provided to me in accordance with The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice chapter 5A of the National Health Service Act 2006, as (Chris Grayling): On 21 December 2012, I announced introduced by the Health Act 2009, and has today been that Baroness Helen Newlove has been appointed as the laid before Parliament and made publicly available at: new Commissioner for Victims and Witnesses—the Victims www.dh.gov.uk/health/2013/01/south-london-healthcare/ Commissioner. 15WS Written Ministerial Statements8 JANUARY 2013 Written Ministerial Statements 16WS

The role of the Victims Commissioner, as set out in organisations to support development and delivery of the Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims Act 2004, is good practice; placing young people in custody; and to promote the interests of victims and witnesses, encourage providing secure accommodation for both remanded good practice in their treatment and keep under review and sentenced children and young persons. the operation of the statutory victims code. To deliver the coalition Government’s commitment We are committed to strengthening the voice of victims to transparency and accountability the Youth Justice who too often feel like they are treated as an afterthought Board will be subject to a triennial review. As part of in the criminal justice system. The appointment of the triennial review process, the Ministry of Justice, as Baroness Newlove as the new Victims Commissioner the sponsoring Department, has today launched a will ensure that as our strategy to improve services and consultation which will last until 15 February 2013 support for victims and witnesses is implemented, the inviting views. The review will be conducted fully in line views of victims are represented. with Cabinet Office guidance: “Guidance on Reviews of Non Departmental Public Bodies” and will consider the following: Youth Justice Board Triennial Review the continuing need for the Youth Justice Board to carry out each of its functions in their current form; and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice where it is agreed that the individual functions should remain, (Jeremy Wright): In March 2011 the Government responded to review the control and governance arrangements in place to ensure that the public body is complying with recognised to the Public Administration Select Committee report principles of good corporate governance. “Smaller Government: Shrinking the Quango state” setting out the coalition’s plans for reforming the public In conducting the triennial review, officials will be bodies sector. It includes the requirement to undertake engaging with a range of stakeholders of the Youth triennial reviews of Executive and advisory non- Justice Board. In addition, the triennial review will take departmental public bodies (NDPBs). into account evidence collated during previous reviews where still relevant. The Youth Justice Board is an Executive non- departmental public body of the Ministry of Justice In 2011, the Government decided not to pursue abolition established in 2000 by the Crime and Disorder Act of the Youth Justice Board as part of the Public Bodies 1998. Its principal aims are: monitoring the operation Act 2011, re-stating their commitment to maintaining a of the youth justice system in England and Wales; distinct focus on the needs of children and young advising the Secretary of State for Justice on the operation people in the youth justice system. It is against this of the youth justice system, national standards, and on backdrop that this triennial review is taking place. how to prevent offending by children and young people; The final report and findings will be laid in this making grants to youth offending teams and other House. 183W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 184W

Jo Swinson: This Government remains fully committed Written Answers to to equality and to equal pay in every work force. However, local authorities are independent employers in their Questions own right and the Government has no role in the way they manage their work forces, including how they exercise their responsibilities in relation to equal pay. Tuesday 8 January 2013 The Local Government Association, as the representative body of local authorities, has produced guidance for FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE local authorities undertaking equal pay reviews. In announcing the Provisional Local Government Temporary Employment Settlement (on 19 December 2012), the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, the Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for right hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what amount his (Mr Pickles) confirmed that he would be taking steps Department spent on interim staff as defined by the to enable authorities to use capital receipts from asset National Audit Office in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; sales raised from 2012-13, for equal pay costs. and if he will make a statement. [135170] Mr Lidington: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office TRANSPORT spent (a) £6,731,574 on interim staff in the financial Broadband year (FY) 2010-11 and (b) £4,876,632 on interim staff in the FY 2011-12. Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for These figures are for spend in the UK only. To obtain Transport whether his Department has had discussions the figures for all of our 200 plus posts would involve with the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and trawling posts for this information and would incur Network Rail over the potential use of ducts and land disproportionate cost. owned by those bodies as a platform for fibre access to support the provision of broadband across the UK. World War II: Military Decorations [134724] Stephen Doughty: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Simon Burns: The Departments have discussed Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the this issue with Network Rail. There is a recognition by oral answer from the Prime Minister to the hon. all parties that access to Network Rail ducts and land Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport of 19 could potentially enable improved broadband services December 2012, Official Report, column 841, whether across the UK. We look to Network Rail to propose an he plans to allow veterans of the Arctic Convoys to approach that does not negatively impact rail operations receive the Russian Ushakov medal as well as awarding or safety. a British honour. [135143] We will continue to work together to enable a positive way forward. Mark Simmonds: The current British rules on the acceptance of foreign awards state that permission will not be given for UK citizens to accept a foreign award if ATTORNEY-GENERAL they have received, or are expected to receive, a UK Serious Fraud Office award for the same services (double medalling). Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Attorney-General what The double medalling rule was a factor in the original steps he plans to take to address issues identified in the decision not to give permission for the Ushakov medal report by HM Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate to be accepted because service on the Arctic Convoys on the Serious Fraud Office published in November was included in the eligibility criteria for the Atlantic 2012. [135613] Star. With the Prime Minister’s announcement of a specific British medal for veterans of the Arctic Convoys, The Attorney-General: The Director of the Serious the double medalling consideration becomes even more Fraud Office has accepted all the recommendations relevant. Under current rules, permission cannot be made by HM Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate given for veterans to accept the Ushakov medal for the in its report. same service. An action plan has been devised in response to the However, as you may be aware, the Government has recommendations and work has already begun to make asked Sir John Holmes to review the rules on the the necessary improvements. acceptance of foreign awards including the double medalling The Director has invited the Inspectorate to return in rule. As Sir John is already carrying out this work, it is 2014 to evaluate progress and inspect again. right that we should await the outcome of his work. In addition I have said that I would like the inspection of the SFO to be put on a statutory footing and this will be done as soon as parliamentary time allows. WOMEN AND EQUALITIES Equal Pay: Local Government LEADER OF THE HOUSE Guy Opperman: To ask the Minister for Women and Olympic Games 2012 Equalities what steps the Government is able to take to expedite the resolution of those equal pay claims by Hugh Bayley: To ask the Leader of the House which women employed by local authorities in the north-east events at the London 2012 Olympics and Paralympics which have not yet reached court. [135837] were attended by each Minister in his office using 185W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 186W tickets or passes for which they did not pay personally; four1 from the hon. Member. I have received some other and what the cost was of attending each such event for representations on the success of the mentorsme website members of the public who used comparable seats or including positive words welcoming the initiative. had comparable access. [135645] Working with the mentoring community, the BBA have identified and are making a number of enhancements Mr Lansley: The Government pledged to publish to mentorsme.co.uk in order to improve the customer these details following the Olympic and Paralympic experience and enable the site to be a key channel for games and will do so shortly. the promotion of mentoring. The new refreshed version of the site will be launched at the end of January 2013. 1 BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS PQ 81007, 21 November 2011, Official Report, column 159W PQs 81008 and 81009, 22 November 2011, Official Report, columns Arms Trade: Israel 330-31W PQ 135349, being answered today Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he took to Toby Perkins: To ask the Secretary of State for ensure that in issuing arms export licences to Israel, Business, Innovation and Skills what recent assessment notably those categorised as ML1, ML3, ML4 and he has made of the success of the Mentorsme website; ML10, weapons could not be used for internal and if he will make a statement. [135349] repression; and if he will make a statement. [135392] Michael Fallon [holding answer 7 January 2013]: All Michael Fallon: mentorsme.co.uk, the national mentoring export licences for military goods are assessed on a case portal, which is funded and operated by the British by case basis against the Consolidated EU and National Bankers Association (BBA), has expanded dramatically Arms Export Licensing Criteria. An export licence will over the last year. The site now provides a single point not be issued if the decision is not consistent with the of access to over 114 mentoring organisations—more criteria. Assessments of export licence applications for than double the number we started with in July 2012. military goods to Israel will take account of the continuing This is good progress and we continue to work closely tensions over Gaza. with the BBA to expand and develop the site further as the single point of access to mentoring provision across The following criteria are relevant: the UK. Criterion 2 Over 200 people visit the site every day. Latest data The respect of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the from the BBA’s Finance Monitor indicates that 23% of country of final destination. A licence will not be issued if there is a clear risk that the proposed export might be used for internal the small and medium-sized enterprise (SME) population repression; are aware of the national mentoring network. Criterion 3 Business: Government Assistance The internal situation in the country of final destination, as a function of the existence of tensions or armed conflicts. The Government will not issue export licences for exports which Toby Perkins: To ask the Secretary of State for would provoke or prolong armed conflicts or aggravate existing Business, Innovation and Skills how many firms are tensions or conflicts in the country of final destination; participating in his Growth Accelerator programme. Criterion 4 [135348] Preservation of regional peace, security and stability. The Government will not issue an export licence if there is a clear risk Michael Fallon: As of 2 January 2013, 2,339 companies that the intended recipient would use the proposed export aggressively are already on the programme and a further 2,382 against another country, or to assert by force a territorial claim. businesses have applied to join. Business: Advisory Services Toby Perkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Toby Perkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how much he has Business, Innovation and Skills what representations he budgeted to be spent on the Growth Accelerator has received on the success of the Mentorsme website. scheme in each year from 2012-13 to 2014-15. [135359] [135083] Michael Fallon: The budget for Growth Accelerator Michael Fallon: The information is as follows: in each year from 2012-13 to 2014-15 is set out in the mentorsme.co.uk, the national mentoring portal, which following table. This includes funding for the Leadership is funded and operated by the British Bankers Association and Management Advisory Service which is now delivered (BBA), now provides a single point of access to over through Growth Accelerator: 114 mentoring organisations—more than double the number we started with in July 2012. This is good Budget (£) progress progress and we continue to work closely with the BBA to expand and develop the site further. 2012-13 38,582,284 According to research published by this Department 2013-14 70,725,828 in September 2012, almost two-thirds of mentoring 2014-15 70,102,755 providers registered on the site would recommend that others do so and the large majority of organisations Toby Perkins: To ask the Secretary of State for listed on the site have seen demand increase. Business, Innovation and Skills how much he has spent A number of parliamentary questions have been on the Growth Accelerator scheme in each month of answered regarding the success of the site, including 2012-13 to date. [135360] 187W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 188W

Michael Fallon: The expenditure on Growth Accelerator projects; when such loans were made; and to which in each month of 2012-13 to end November 2012 is bodies they were made. [134580] shown in the following table. This includes funding to establish the scheme initially in the period before it was Michael Fallon: In November 2012, UK Export Finance, formally launched in May 2012. formally the Export Credits Guarantee Department (ECGD), published information, available in the Libraries 2012 £ of the House, about sovereign debts due to ECGD. Paragraph 10 of the explanatory note sets out that, due January 0 to the age and incomplete nature of some of the records, February 1,996,407.00 judgement has to be made in some instances as to the March 2,838,203.00 precise nature of the goods and services. April 2,877,545.00 I refer the hon. Member to the answer I am giving to May 2,877,711.57 parliamentary question 134579 today for the amount of June 2,877,711.57 Grenada’s debt outstanding as at end November 2012. July 2,658,338.88 This debt has been rescheduled at the Paris Club and it August 2,658,338.88 is not possible to disaggregate the value of the current September 2,658,338.88 outstanding debt between the original contracts. However, October 3,390,104.24 the original debt of £891,255 (61% in terms of value) November 3,390,183.40 attributable to airport projects related to an airport project that was guaranteed by ECGD in 1982. The Export Credit Guarantees: Grenada buyer was the Ministry of Finance, Government of Grenada. Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Export Credit Guarantees: Iraq Innovation and Skills what the amount of Grenada’s Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for debt to UK Export Finance is. [134579] Business, Innovation and Skills if he will publish a list of the specific exports of vehicle spare parts to Iraq Michael Fallon: As at 30 November 2012 the amount that led to sovereign debt from that country being owed of Grenada’s outstanding debt to UK Export Finance to UK Export Finance; what vehicles such spare parts was GBP 1,783,141. were used for; when those exports were made; and who the customer was in each case. [134644] Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how much of the debt owed by Michael Fallon: The available information is set out Grenada to UK Export Finance relates to airport as follows.

Spare parts Date contract performed Buyer

Dennis Trucks 1988 General Automobile Trading Company Mobile Cranes 1989 State Machinery Trading Company Engine Spares 1988, 1989 Ministry of Agriculture and Agrarian Reform Agricultural Tractor Spares (balancer units 1989 General Automobile and Machinery Trading and piston ring sets) Company Vehicle Components 1989 Baghdad Sewerage Board Vehicle Parts (clutch plates, gear trains, drive 1989, 1990 State Establishment for Passenger Services belts and fuel pumps) for Leyland Trucks Vehicle Parts Two contracts performed in 1989 State Establishment for Passenger Services Car Tyres (various sizes) 1988, 1989 State Company for Iraqi Trading Vehicle Spare Parts, (exhaust valve, starter Two contracts performed in 1998 and 1999 Ministry of Defence motor, oil pump crankshaft, distributor, alternator, calliper, rear jump hose, tailgate and glass, gearbox, rear axle and front shock kit)

Export Credit Guarantees: Kenya accompanying that information sets out that, due to the age and incomplete nature of some of the records, Mrs Glindon: To ask the Secretary of State for judgment had to be made in some instances as to the Business, Innovation and Skills which exports account precise nature of the goods and services that were for the proportion of Kenya’s sovereign debt owed to supplied. UK Export Finance relating to the power sector. Further detailed examination of the relevant files [134723] show that in fact 12%, in terms of value, of the original sovereign debt owed to ECGD related to the power Michael Fallon [holding answer 7 January 2013]: UK sector. The exports were for consultancy services for a Export Finance, formally the Export Credits Guarantee hydro electric power project, the design, supply, erection Department (ECGD) recently placed information in and commissioning of a cable form factory and associated the Libraries of the House, about sovereign debts due goods and services, and the design and construction of to ECGD. Paragraph 10 of the explanatory note a hydro-electric dam. 189W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 190W

Export Credit Guarantees: Zimbabwe Information on the number of private sector businesses in the West Midlands at the start of 2012 by broad Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for industry group is available in Table 15 of the detailed Business, Innovation and Skills what proportion of data tables that accompany this publication—see: Zimbabwe’s sovereign debt currently owed to UK https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/ Export Finance was accrued through the export of oil attachment_data/file/16402/bpe_2012_data.xls pipelines; what the location is of such pipelines; what exports are the source of such debt; whether the Met Office exports were to government or private companies; and if he will make a statement. [135116] Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for Michael Fallon: UK Export Finance, formally the Business, Innovation and Skills what the value was of Export Credits Guarantee Department (ECGD), recently the commercial products and services provided by the placed information in the Libraries of the House, about Met Office to UK companies engaged in (a) on- and sovereign debts due to ECGD. Paragraph 10 of the off-shore wind energy and (b) other energy generation explanatory note accompanying that information sets in each of the last three years. [134946] out that, due to the age and incomplete nature of some of the records, judgment had to be made in some Michael Fallon: I have asked the chief executive officer instances as to the precise nature of the goods and of the Met Office to respond directly to the hon. Member. services that were supplied. Letter from John Hirst, dated 3 January 2013 Further detailed examination of the relevant files I am replying on behalf of the Met Office to your Parliamentary show that about 1%, in terms of value, of the original Question tabled on 18 December 2012, UIN 134946 to the sovereign debt owed to UK Export Finance was accrued Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills. through the export of oil pipelines. This relates to the The Met Office works with energy companies within the UK supply of goods and services for the design, survey, and internationally in both the planning and management of construction and commissioning of an oil pipeline from their assets and capacity management. The details requested are Feruka to Harare and associated facilities. The buyer/ commercially sensitive but in total this business accounts for borrower was Petrozim Line (Private) Ltd, a private around only 1.5% of the Met Office’s income. company. A third party guarantee of payment was given by the Government of Zimbabwe. Natural Gas: Exploration Green Investment Bank Mark Hendrick: To ask the Secretary of State for Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will publish all Business, Innovation and Skills with reference to the correspondence and minutes relating to meetings Autumn Statement 2012, what discussions he has held between (a) Ministers and (b) officials in his with (a) the chairman of the Green Investment Bank Department and (i) Cuadrilla and (ii) any other (GIB) and (b) prospective borrowers from the GIB on fracking or shale gas company. [134689] the implications for GIB’s ability to borrow from 2015. [135027] Michael Fallon: There are no plans to publish such correspondence and minutes. Michael Fallon: The Government are fully committed to providing the UK Green Investment Bank (UK GIB) Redundancy with the funding it needs to be an enduring and effective financial institution. With £3 billion to 2015, the UK GIB is being amply funded so that it will not need to Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, borrow in the short to medium term. The Secretary of Innovation and Skills how many Civil Service posts State for Business, Innovation and Skills, my right hon. have been made redundant by his Department in each Friend the Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable), has year since 1999; and what has been the cost of had discussions with Lord Smith of Kelvin, Chairman redundancies in each such year. [135474] of UK GIB, about the Bank’s future ability to borrow. As set out during second reading of the Enterprise and Jo Swinson: The Department for Business, Innovation Regulatory Reform Bill in the House of Lords, Lord and Skills (BIS) was created on 5 June 2009 via a merger Smith’s focus is on building a well run organisation of the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory with a good track record worthy of the injection of Reform (BERR) and the Department of Innovation, more capital or borrowing money in capital markets. Universities and Skills (DIUS) which both ceased to exist from that date. Data on the number and cost of Manufacturing Industries: West Midlands redundancies and voluntary paid exits have been provided from this date. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent Number of estimate he has made of the balance of industries Number of voluntary paid Total cost of exits within the West Midlands. [135795] redundancies exits (£) 2009-10 0 21 3,195,578 Michael Fallon: BIS publish annual National Statistics 2010-11 0 330 26,552,976 estimating the total number of private sector businesses 2011-12 254 0 15,529,155 in the UK in the publication ’Business Population Estimates 2012-13 5 2 154,653 for the UK and Regions’. 191W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 192W

TREASURY Taxation: Preston Broadband Mark Hendrick: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much (a) national insurance and (b) Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Chancellor of the income tax was paid by non-UK EU nationals living in Exchequer what the range of estimates made by his Preston constituency in tax year 2011-12. [134683] Department was for the revenue from the sale of the Mr Gauke: The information is available only at 4G spectrum. [134954] disproportionate cost. Danny Alexander: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave the hon. Member for Nottingham East ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE (Chris Leslie) on 17 December 2012, Official Report, column 558W. EU Law Gift Aid Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change which regulations his Department Graeme Morrice: To ask the Chancellor of the introduced as a result of EU legislation in (a) 2011 and Exchequer what recent steps he has taken to modernise (b) 2012 to date; which regulations his Department and promote (a) Gift Aid and (b) payroll giving. expects to implement as a result of EU legislation in (i) [134646] 2013 and (ii) the next two years; and what estimate he has made of the cost of each such regulation to the (A) Sajid Javid: The Government has introduced a number public purse and (B) private sector. [133700] of measures to modernise and promote Gift Aid. The Gregory Barker: The information requested is not Gift Aid Small Donations Scheme will be introduced in held centrally and is currently being compiled. I will April 2013 which will enable qualifying charities to write to my hon. Friend as soon the information is claim top-up payments equivalent to Gift Aid on small available and a copy of my letter will be placed in the cash donations of up to £5,000 each year without Libraries of the House. requiring the donor to provide a Gift Aid declaration. The scheme is expected to increase the amounts received Redundancy by charities by around £100 million by 2015. Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) is introducing a and Climate Change how many civil service posts have new online system for making Gift Aid claims from been made redundant by his Department in each year April 2013. This will make it faster and easier for since 1999; and what the cost of redundancies has been charities to claim repayments of tax under Gift Aid and in each such year. [135487] top-up payments under the Gift Aid Small Donations Scheme. Gregory Barker: The Department of Energy and In addition, just recently HMRC announced changes Climate Change (DECC) was created in October 2008. which will lift the administrative burdens for charities Therefore there is no data prior to that date. claiming Gift Aid on the proceeds of donors’ goods DECC is one of the smallest Departments in Whitehall sold in charity shops. Currently charities have to write (less than 1,700 staff) and has not made any of its civil to the donor before the charity can claim Gift Aid on servants redundant since its inception and has therefore the proceeds from each sale. The changes will make Gift not incurred any such costs. Aid simpler and less costly for charity shops, as a letter will be required only when proceeds exceed an agreed amount of either £100 or £1,000. INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT The Chancellor announced in the autumn statement Olympic Games 2012 that an examination will be carried out to identify ways Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for to improve the administration of Gift Aid to reflect new International Development which events at the ways of giving money to charity, in particular digital London 2012 Olympics and Paralympics were attended giving. by each Minister in her Department using tickets or A public consultation will be held on Payroll Giving passes for which they did not pay personally; and what in the coming weeks. This will seek to raise the levels of the cost was of attending each such event for members payroll giving by improving and modernising the process. of the public who used comparable seats or had The consultation document will be published jointly by comparable access. [135642] the Cabinet Office, HM Treasury and HMRC. Mr Duncan: The Government pledged to publish Public Expenditure these details following the Olympic and Paralympic Games and will do so shortly. Chris Leslie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what assessment he has made of the effect of his decision in the autumn statement to underspend in CABINET OFFICE 2012-13 through reduced reserves on Government Charitable Donations Departments. [134682] John Robertson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Danny Alexander: Decisions on forecast departmental Office what estimate he has made in the change in underspends are made by the independent Office for public donations to UK registered charities in each of Budget Responsibility (OBR). the last seven years. [135293] 193W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 194W

Mr Hurd: The National Council of Voluntary Redundancy Organisations (NCVO) publishes data from charity accounts on the level of income received by UK charities Mr Weir: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office from individuals: (1) how many civil service posts have been made http://data.ncvo-vol.org.uk redundant by his Department in each year since 1999; Data are available up until 2009-10 and show levels of and what has been the cost of redundancies in each donations have been increasing year-on-year over the such year; [135472] last decade: (2) how many posts have been declared redundant by each of his Department’s executive agencies and £ billion non-departmental public bodies in each year since 1999; and what has been the cost of those redundancies 2009-10 14.3 in each such year. [135473] 2008-09 14.1 2007-08 14.0 Mr Maude: Information on redundancies and other 2006-07 14.0 paid departures in the Cabinet Office are published 2005-06 13.3 each year in the Cabinet Office annual report and 2004-05 12.3 accounts. Copies of these documents for the years 1998 2003-04 12.3 to 2007 are available from the National Archives website at: http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20100416132449/ Civil Servants: Recruitment http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/about_the_cabinet_office/ reports.aspx Kate Green: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet More recent copies of the annual report and accounts Office what consideration he has given to whether the are available on the Cabinet Office website at: policy of advertising all civil service jobs as available on http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/cabinet- a full-time, part-time or flexible working basis should office-annual-reports-and-accounts be extended to all public sector jobs. [135073] The Government Procurement Service is an executive agency of the Cabinet Office and its annual report and Mr Maude: It is for responsible authorities in the accounts are available at: wider public sector to consider whether advertising jobs http://gps.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/about-government- in this way is appropriate. procurement-service/annual-report-and-accounts Other bodies that have been agencies of the Cabinet Electronic Government Office in the past include the Central Office of Information, the National School of Government, Commission for the Compact, and CapacityBuilders. Copies of their Gregg McClymont: To ask the Minister for the annual report and accounts are available from: Cabinet Office which organisations are allowed to http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/ advertise jobs on gov.uk. [135702]

Mr Hurd: All jobs currently advertised on GOV.UK WORK AND PENSIONS are through the Universal Job Match, which is administered by the Department for Work and Pensions: Back Pain www.gov.uk/jobs-jobsearch Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Flexible Working and Pensions what information and resources his Department provides to employers to support people diagnosed with lower back pain to remain in work. Kate Green: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet [133559] Office (1) what steps he is taking to ensure that his Department meets the Government’s aspiration for the Mr Hoban: We are committed to working with a wide civil service to be an exemplar in flexible working range of stakeholders such as employers to support practices when carrying out reviews of terms and people with health conditions including back pain to conditions of employment; [135072] remain in work. (2) with reference to the conclusion in the response The health, work and wellbeing pages on the DWP from the Department for Business, Innovation and website provide information and guidance for a range Skills to the Modern Workplaces consultation that of groups including employers. This includes promoting flexible working increases productivity and best practice and sharing success stories from a wide commitment, improves retention and widens the talent range of organisations that have helped their staff manage pool so that employers are able to recruit people with musculoskeletal conditions. more skills, whether he plans to review flexible working We also fund the national occupational health advice policies in the civil service. [135074] service pilots for small businesses. These provide employers and employees in small and medium sized businesses Mr Maude: Departments are currently conducting a with access to high quality, professional occupational review of their terms and conditions of employment in health advice in response to help employers support line with the commitment made in the Civil Service employee issues with health problems including back Reform Plan. pain. 195W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 196W

People who are off work sick for longer than seven Employment and Support Allowance calendar days with problems like back pain need to provide fit notes from their doctor. My Department has John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for developed guidance for employers on using fit notes, Work and Pensions (1) what monitoring has taken which is available on our website and will be revised place of the provision of information and advice to shortly. employment and support allowance (ESA) claimants Finally, our Access to Work programme provides by staff of his Department concerning ESA regulations practical and financial support to disabled people and 29 and 35 relating to exceptional circumstances; those with physical or mental health conditions—such [133364] as back pain—who are in employment or self-employed, (2) how many claimants of employment and support to help them overcome barriers to starting or keeping a allowance (ESA) have sought exception in their claim job. Access to Work helps employers retain an employee under ESA regulations 29 and 35 relating to who develops a long term health condition, keeping exceptional circumstances; and how many such valuable skills and saving both time and money recruiting claimants have been successful in seeking exception. a replacement. [133365]

Conditions of Employment Mr Hoban: The DWP regularly undertakes monitoring in connection with our services and activities but does Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for not specifically monitor information and advice provided Work and Pensions what proportion of staff in his by DWP staff to employment and support allowance Department requested (a) part-time, (b) job-share or claimants concerning regulations 29 and 35 of the (c) other flexible working arrangements in each of the Employment and Support Allowance Regulations 2008. last five years; and how many such requests were Guidance for DWP staff who provide information and granted. [134990] advice to claimants is regularly reviewed. We do not collect data on whether claimants have Mr Hoban: The information requested is not held sought exception under these regulations. The Department centrally on the personnel computer system, and to regularly publishes official statistics on employment provide this information would incur disproportionate and support allowance (ESA) and the work capability costs. assessment (WCA). The latest report was published in October 2012 and can be found at: Council Tax Benefits http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/workingage/ index.php?page=esa_wca Margot James: To ask the Secretary of State for Table 6 of the supplementary tables details reasons Work and Pensions how many households that receive for placement into the Work Related Activity Group council tax benefit have (a) one child, (b) two (WRAG). The column referring to ‘Medical Reasons’ children, (c) three children, (d) four children, (e) five includes ESA claimants placed into the WRAG on the children, (f) six children, (g) seven children and (h) basis of regulation 29. Note that the category ‘Medical Reasons’ also includes some other reasons for assignment eight or more children. [134606] and assignments on the basis of regulation 29 only cannot be separated out. Steve Webb: The requested information is in the following table: Table 5 of the supplementary tables details reasons for placement into the Support Group (SG). The columns Council tax benefit recipients by number of child dependants—August for ‘Chemotherapy’, ‘Physical or mental health risk’, 2012 ‘Pregnancy risk’, and ‘Terminally ill’ include all claimants Number of child dependants Caseload being placed into the SG on the basis of regulation 35. 1 787,040 2 555,690 Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 3 259,920 and Pensions what proportion of claims for 4 94,990 employment and support allowance were unsuccessful 5 30,240 in each of the last four years for which figures are 6 9,600 available. [135109] 7 3,240 8 or more 1,720 Mr Hoban: The Department regularly publishes of Notes: official statistics on the outcomes of claims for employment 1. The data refers to benefit units, which may be a single person or a and support allowance (USA) and the work capability couple. assessment (WCA). The latest report was published in 2. Recipients are as at second Thursday of the month. October 2012 and can be found at: 3. SHBE is a monthly electronic scan of claimant level data direct from local authority computer systems. It replaces quarterly aggregate http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/workingage/ clerical returns. The data is available monthly from November 2008 index.php?page=esa_wca and August 2012 is the most recent available. 4. Caseload: Caseload figures are rounded to the nearest 10. Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 5. Number of child dependants: Only count child dependants resident and Pensions what medical reasons can be cited in in the household on the extract date who are less than 20 years old. claims for payment of employment and support 6. Figures in this table may be affected by the introduction of new tax credits in April 2003. allowance; and how many people have made a claim for Source: employment and support allowance for each such Single housing benefit extract (SHBE) medical reason in each of the last four years. [135110] 197W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 198W

Mr Hoban: Entitlement to employment and support Immigration allowance (ESA) is based on functional impairment rather than being limited to particular medical conditions. Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Work ESA on flows data by primary medical condition (based and Pensions if he will estimate the additional cost of on the International Classification of Diseases, 10th the delivery of those public services for which his Revision, published by the World Health Organisation) Department is responsible arising from inward are available from the Department’s tabulation tool, migration since 1997. [134304] which can found at: http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=tabtool Mr Hoban: The Department does not routinely produce estimates of this nature. To do so would require the Farms: Safety Department to incur disproportionate cost. Industrial Health and Safety Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for the implications of (a) poor mobile telephone Work and Pensions what recent assessment he has coverage and (b) poor broadband access for health made of compliance in the UK with EU regulations in and safety on farms; and if he will make a statement. relation to the maximum 24 hour exposure to [132993] hand-arm vibration for workers in the construction industry. [134256] Mr Hoban: HSE has not carried out any specific assessment of poor mobile telephone coverage and/or Mr Hoban: The prevention and control of hand-arm poor broadband access for health and safety on farms. vibration is one of the many construction workplace None the less, HSE recognises the implications and health risks that are considered by the Health and supports efforts to promote mobile phone availability Safety Executive (HSE) construction inspectors when and coverage to facilitate swift and efficient emergency carrying out interventions. HSE is currently in dialogue responses in the event of an accident in remote rural with industry on the practical implementation of the areas. Control of Vibration at Work Regulations 2005, as part of the EU’s review of health and safety directives, to Housing Benefit obtain their views relating to compliance in respect of hand-arm vibration. Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what recent assessment he has made of Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for recently announced changes to levels of housing Work and Pensions what recent discussions he has had benefit on the long-term viability of sheltered housing. with employer organisations and employee representatives in relation to the effect on employee [135439] health of hand-arm vibration. [134257] Steve Webb: We have made no assessment of the long Mr Hoban: The Health and Safety Executive attends term viability of sheltered housing. The housing benefit industry-led quarterly partnership meetings, where the rules and levels of housing benefit payable for those effect of hand-arm vibration is discussed as part of living in sheltered housing remain unchanged. wider discussions on employee health with employer organisations and employee representatives. The partnership John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Work encourages the sharing of good control and management and Pensions which areas will be exempt from the one practices, and aims to bring about improved employee per cent increase in local housing allowance in 2014-15 health through changed attitudes and behaviours towards and 2015-16; and if he will place a copy of the criteria hand-arm vibration in the workplace. used to choose these areas in the Library. [135941] Internet Steve Webb: In 2014-15 and 2015-16, increases to local housing allowance rates will be capped at 1%, in Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for line with increases in other benefits. We have set aside Work and Pensions whether his Department has made 30% of the forecasts savings from this measure—£45 a further assessment on whether the unused IPv4 million in 2014-15 and £95 million in 2015-16 to target addresses it holds have material value that could be further help on people most affected. realised. [135429] Our intention is that this funding will be used to increase the local housing allowance rates by more than Mr Hoban: The Department for Work and Pensions 1% in areas where rent increases are causing a shortage is continuing to seek legal advice to evaluate whether it of affordable accommodation. has the right of ownership of its spare IPv4 addresses and will take the necessary steps to act on that advice. This funding will be available from 2014-15 and we will consider how it is targeted using available evidence, Jobcentre Plus including annual market data collected by independent rent officers, to ensure that the funding is targeted in a Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for transparent and objective way. Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of Final details of the 2014-15 arrangements will be 27 November 2012, Official Report, column 142W, on made available in autumn 2013, both to enable us to Jobcentre Plus, how many and what proportion of consider the latest evidence and also to give claimants those staff in the Operations structure are employed in and landlords time to plan. face-to-face services. [135453] 199W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 200W

Mr Hoban: Within the Operations structure the majority Olympic Games 2012 of people that deliver face-to-face services are based within the Jobcentre network. As at September 2012, Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work there were 38,316 people delivering these face-to-face and Pensions which events at the London 2012 services, which is 47.92% of the total number of people Olympics and Paralympics were attended by each provided in the answer of 27 November 2012, Official Minister in his Department using tickets or passes for Report, column 142W. which they did not pay personally; and what the cost The number quoted for delivering face-to-face was of attending each such event for members of the services will also include people in direct managerial public who used comparable seats or had comparable and support roles of those people delivering services. access. [135651] There are also large numbers of other people within the DWP Operations structure that provide services through Mr Hoban: The Government pledged to publish these telephony and on-line options and they are not included details following the Olympic and Paralympic games in the number quoted as providing the face-to-face and will do so shortly. service. Remploy

Long Term Unemployed People: Mental Health Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions for what reasons Remploy factory sites that were earmarked for sale have not yet been sold. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work [134502] and Pensions what recent assessment he has made of the influence of long-term unemployment on Esther McVey: All stage 1 businesses were put up for individual mental health and well-being. [134265] sale. We also provided funding to support employee-led bids. For some businesses, no interest was received, Mr Hoban: There is a body of evidence which shows reflecting the commercial standing and nature of the that unemployment is associated with poorer mental businesses. I understand from Remploy that in some health and well-being. Work can be therapeutic and can instances where initial interest was received from bidders, lead to improvements in self-esteem and mental health no final offers were submitted by bidders. In some and well-being. instances bids were rejected because they did not meet We recently published the National Study of Work-search published criteria, including on retaining the employment and Wellbeing, a large-scale study on the extent of of disabled employees, sustainability of employment or mental health conditions among claimants of jobseeker’s value for money and in some cases bidders withdrew allowance. This showed that more than one in five from the process. people who claimed Jobseeker’s Allowance for about Sick Leave six months had a common mental health condition compared with one in six of those who flowed off jobseeker’s allowance before six months. Evidence published Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work as part of the study also shows that the chance of and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 12 November having a common mental health condition increased 2012, Official Report, columns 87-8W, on sick leave, with the number of years out of work. These findings what assessment he has made of the difference in the are supportive of wider research on the association of proportion of working days lost due to ill health unemployment with mental health, including reviews of between officers at A/AA grade and at SCS grade; and academic literature. what assessment he has made of the use of mindfulness-based therapies in reducing the proportion We recognise the study’s findings that entering of working days lost in his Department. [132699] employment can support recovery and offer specialist support to claimants with mental health problems through Mr Hoban: Higher absence levels are recorded for disability employment advisers. Additionally, Mental junior grades in DWP this is common across both the Health and Well-being Partnership Managers support public and private sectors. our Jobcentre Plus staff by improving and facilitating DWP has a range of interventions in place to help links between local mental health and employment reduce sickness absence and increase the health, wellbeing services, identifying the availability of local support and resilience of its work force irrespective of grade. that advisers may signpost claimants to and by providing a support role through team meetings and awareness Within DWP assessment is made of mindfulness-based sessions. therapies through the monitoring and evaluation of the Department’s Employee Assistance Programme which We have also introduced the Work programme, provides such therapies as part of its counselling support which is designed to help people who are at risk of service. becoming long term unemployed. The Work programme is currently supporting 837,000 participants, and is State Retirement Pensions expected to support 3.3 million over the life time of the contract. Patrick Mercer: To ask the Secretary of State for We also have specialist disability employment Work and Pensions what reciprocal agreements need to programmes, such as Access to Work and Work be agreed with the government of Namibia so that UK Choice, which aim to identify and meet the needs of citizens living in Namibia who conduct financial disabled people, including those with mental health arrangements in the UK at their own expense, pay conditions. income tax in the UK and pay for money transfers 201W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 202W from the UK to Namibia requiring no input from the Mr Hoban: The level of a household’s universal government of Namibia receive the cost of living credit award is determined by their personal circumstances increase to their state pension. [134043] and is made up of a standard allowance and potentially five elements, one of which is an element for housing. Mr Hoban: The increasing cost of unfreezing pensions The information requested is in the following table; for has meant that no commitments have been made to each household type requested a typical monthly universal enter into any new reciprocal agreements since 1981. credit award is shown for (i) where the household has no The Government has no plans to enter into discussions housing costs, and (ii) where the household has rent of on annual pension increases with countries where those £435 per month (£100 per week). increases are not currently payable. There are no plans to change the current arrangements for pensions paid Monthly UC award (i) No housing costs (ii) £435 rent per overseas. (£) (£) month Temporary Employment (a) 0249 (b) 0426 Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Work (c) 426 555 and Pensions what amount his Department spent on (d) 491 620 interim staff as defined by the National Audit Office in (e) 438 669 (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; and if he will make a (f) 540 770 statement. [135189] UC will be paid on a monthly basis and therefore Mr Hoban: The amount spent by the Department for amounts are monthly and are presented in 2013/14 Work and Pensions on interim staff as defined by the prices. National Audit Office in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 20.11-12 was: Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for (a) 2010-11: £26,012,567 Work and Pensions what support he will make available (b) 2011-12: £12,298,427 to local authorities participating in the universal credit This represents a considerable reduction against the pathfinder to enable them to provide budgeting and spend of £52,623,645 on interim personnel in 2009-10. money management advice to claimants moving from weekly to monthly benefit payments. [135294] Unemployment Mr Hoban: The Universal Credit programme is currently Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for working with local authorities in the pathfinder area to Work and Pensions (1) how many (a) job vacancies develop a process that will provide the necessary personal and (b) jobseekers there were in each (i) parliamentary budgeting support to universal credit claimants. constituency, (ii) ward, (iii) lower layer super output area and (iv) Jobcentre Plus district on 1 April in each Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for year for which figures are available; [135326] Work and Pensions what steps he has put in place to (2) how many jobseekers there were in each (a) monitor the potential effects on homelessness and parliamentary constituency (b) ward, (c) lower layer crime of the introduction of universal credit in those super output area and (d) Jobcentre Plus district on 1 local authority areas which are pathfinder areas. October 2012. [135327] [135295]

Mr Hoban: The available information will be placed Mr Hoban: Universal Credit Pathfinder is about ensuring in the House of Commons Library. we learn lessons before universal credit is rolled out Universal Credit nationally. As part of our learning, we will be undertaking research with: Ann Coffey: To ask the Secretary of State for Work DWP Staff; and Pensions with reference to his Department’s claimants; announcement of 10 December 2012, on universal local authorities; and credit, how much universal credit will be received by the local welfare advice sector to help understand the effects of (a) a single person aged over 25 years with no children universal credit in the pathfinder areas. who earns £217 per week and has no other income or savings, (b) a couple aged over 25 years with no Vacancies children, one of whom earns £217 per week and who both have no other income or savings, (c) a lone parent Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work (aged under 25 years with one child) who earns and Pensions how many (a) full-time and (b) £217 per week and has no other income or savings, (d) part-time vacancies were advertised in Jobcentre Plus a lone parent (aged over 25 years with one child) who in (i) Bury St Edmunds constituency, (ii) Suffolk and earns £217 per week and has no other income or (iii) the UK in each quarter in each of the last three savings, (e) a couple (aged under 25 years with one years. [134471] child), one of whom earns £217 per week and who both have no other income or savings and (f) a couple (aged Mr Hoban: The following tables contain number of over 25 years with one child), one of whom earns (a) full-time and (b) part-time vacancies were advertised £217 per week and who both have no other income or in Jobcentre Plus in (i) Bury St Edmunds constituency, savings. [133775] (ii) Suffolk and (iii) the GB in each quarter since 2009. 203W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 204W

Vacancies advertised in Jobcentre Plus Full-time vacancies Bury St Edmunds Suffolk GB Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4

Jan- Apr- Jul-Sep Oct- Jan- Apr- Jul-Sep Oct- Jan-Mar Apr-Jun Jul-Sep Oct-Dec Mar Jun Dec Mar Jun Dec 2009 831 978 1,302 1,137 4,575 5,619 7,478 6,689 475,191 534,700 641,539 698,928 2010 1,241 1,264 944 1,531 7,229 7,816 5,505 7,846 585,104 741,275 534,726 773,032 2011 1,498 1,427 1,667 1,649 7,359 7,794 9,012 8,220 602,486 678,325 790,811 857,410 2012 1,419 1,774 1,715 — 7,528 8,488 10,269 — 673,274 917,100 1,054,035 —

Part-time vacancies Bury St Edmunds Suffolk GB Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 Jan- Oct- Jan- Oct- Mar Apr-Jun Jul-Sep Dec Mar Apr-Jun Jul-Sep Dec Jan-Mar Apr-Jun Jul-Sep Oct-Dec

2009 628 492 527 649 2,488 2,373 4,085 3,506 187,587 230,698 258,864 285,934 2010 566 628 1,092 738 2,744 3,473 2,748 3,973 219,630 268,465 171,520 322,801 2011 707 754 710 827 2,869 3,498 3,363 4,046 218,155 242,286 264,955 305,154 2012 589 683 1,124 — 3,246 4,213 4,595 — 283,200 340,178 311,824 — Note: September 2010 figures are not available due to a technical issue of NOMIS data.

Amber Rudd: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Mr Hoban: The following tables contain number of and Pensions how many (a) full-time and (b) (a) full-time and (b) part-time vacancies were advertised part-time vacancies were advertised in Jobcentre Plus in Jobcentre Plus in (i) Hastings and Rye constituency, in (i) Hastings and Rye constituency, (ii) East Sussex (ii) East Sussex and (iii) the GB in each quarter since and (iii) the UK in each quarter of the last three years. 2009. [134918]

Vacancies advertised in Jobcentre Plus Full-time vacancies Hastings and Rye East Sussex GB Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 Jan- Oct- Jan- Oct- Mar Apr-Jun Jul-Sep Dec Mar Apr-Jun Jul-Sep Dec Jan-Mar Apr-Jun Jul-Sep Oct-Dec

2009 769 566 690 792 2,185 2,222 2,772 2,862 475,191 534,700 641,539 698,928 2010 756 1,305 548 1,112 2,578 3,888 2,661 4,012 585,104 741,275 534,726 773,032 2011 722 863 832 1,205 2,617 3,368 3,667 3,759 602,486 678,325 790,811 857,410 2012 775 889 923 — 3,280 3,779 4,310 — 673,274 917,100 1,054,035 —

Part-time vacancies Hastings and Rye East Sussex GB Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 Q1 Q2 Q3 Q4 Jan- Oct- Jan- Oct- Mar Apr-Jun Jul-Sep Dec Mar Apr-Jun Jul-Sep Dec Jan-Mar Apr-Jun Jul-Sep Oct-Dec

2009 314 488 429 428 932- 1,603 1,837 1,659 187,587 230,698 258,864 285,934 2010 913 360 628 668 1,801 1,433 1,394 2,146 219,630 268,465 171,520 322,801 2011 665 237 324 404 1,576 1,268 1,567 1,890 218,155 242,286 264,955 305,154 2012 222 512 312 — 1,265 2,970 1,922 — 283,200 340,178 311,824 — Note: September 2010 figures are not available. Source: NOMIS.

Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for South and Whiston constituency, (b) Merseyside, (c) Work and Pensions how many job vacancies there were the North West and (d) the UK who have been in each (a) parliamentary constituency, (b) ward, (c) referred to the Work programme have found (i) lower layer super output area and (d) Jobcentre Plus part-time and (ii) full-time employment that lasted (A) district on 1 October 2012. [135328] less than and (B) more than six months to date. [134996] Mr Hoban: The available information will be placed in the House of Commons Library. Mr Hoban: Statistics on the number of people in (a) Work Programme St Helens South and Whiston constituency, (b) Merseyside, (c) the North West and (d) the UK who have been Mr Woodward: To ask the Secretary of State for referred to the Work programme have found (i) part-time Work and Pensions how many people in (a) St Helens 205W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 206W and (ii) full-time employment that lasted (A) less than Work Programme: Wales and (B) more than six months are not available. Guto Bebb: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Mr Woodward: To ask the Secretary of State for and Pensions how many people have come off benefits Work and Pensions how many people in (a) St Helens after joining the Work programme in (a) Aberconwy South and Whiston constituency, (b) Merseyside, (c) and (b) North Wales to date. [134940] the North West and (d) the UK have been referred to the Work Programme to date. [135011] Mr Hoban: The information requested is not readily available and could be provided only at disproportionate Mr Hoban: Official statistics on Work programme cost. referrals can be found on the Department’s website via the DWP Tabulation Tool: http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=tabtool ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Guidance on use of the tabulation tool can be found Dogs: Litter at: http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/tabtools/guidance.pdf Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many fines Work Programme: East of England have been issued to dog owners who failed to clear up their dog’s faeces in England and Wales in the last Mr Djanogly: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 10 years. [135346] and Pensions how much has been spent on the Work programme in (a) the East of England and (b) Richard Benyon: Until 2008-09, DEFRA requested Huntingdon constituency. [135098] figures on the number of fixed penalty notices issued by local authorities. The collection of these figures was Mr Hoban: The total paid to Work programme providers then discontinued following the decision by the coalition in the UK is £337.9 million from the start of the Government, which deemed this as an unnecessary data programme through to 30 July 2012, i.e. the period burden on local authorities. covered by the Statistical Release. Due to commercial in confidence considerations, we are not able to release The following table reflects the number of fixed penalty financial data below the national level at this time. notices issued for dog fouling for the period 2002-09.

Mr Djanogly: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Fixed penalty notices and Pensions what proportion of Work programme 2002-03 2,063 participants in the East of England are resident in 2003-04 2,742 [135099] Huntingdon constituency. 2004-05 2,515 Mr Hoban: Statistics on what proportion of Work 2005-06 3,782 programme participants in the East of England are 2006-07 3,675 resident in Huntingdon constituency can be found at: 2007-08 1,938 2008-09 2,082 http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=tabtool Guidance for users is available at: Livestock: Transport http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/tabtools/guidance.pdf Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State Mr Djanogly: To ask the Secretary of State for Work for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to and Pensions how many job outcomes under the Work his contributions of 13 December 2012, Official programme there have been in (a) the East of England Report, column 529, on live animal exports, on how and (b) Huntingdon constituency. [135100] many occasions he has reported concerns over live animal export transporters to the competent Mr Hoban: Statistics on how many job outcomes authorities of other EU member states. [135852] under the Work programme there have been in (a) the East of England and (b) Huntingdon constituency can Mr Heath: The following paragraphs are extracts be found at: from the most recent Annual Report (for 2011) to the http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=tabtool EU Commission on inspections and follow-up action Guidance for users can be found at: under article 27 of Council Regulation (EC) 1/2005, concerning the protection of animals during transport: http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/tabtools/guidance.pdf “The United Kingdom continued to communicate and work with Member State (MS) contact points regarding potential Mr Djanogly: To ask the Secretary of State for Work contraventions of EC/1/2005 and information exchange under and Pensions what reduction in long-term Article 26 of EC/1/2005. Similar to 2010, there were no serious unemployment there has been since the start of the welfare infringements reported by other MS regarding UK Work programme in (a) the East of England and (b) transporters during 2011. In 2011 there were seven notifications Huntingdon constituency. [135102] regarding UK transporters from other MS, three of which referred to a failure to return journey logs and included a continued case Mr Hoban: Statistics on what reduction in long-term from the previous year. This is an improvement on 2010 where unemployment there has been since the start of the 8 out of a total of 12 notifications/elated to failed return of Work programme in (a) the East of England and (b) journey logs. Information exchange included confirmation of a transporter’s competence following relocation to another MS and Huntingdon constituency can be found at: enquiries on AHVLA guidance on requirements for transport of https://www.nomisweb.co.uk/Default.asp horses through Eurotunnel. 207W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 208W

Thirty notifications were made by the UK to other MS in 2011 At the meeting of the Council of Agriculture Ministers including a notification to all other MS of the temporary suspension on 18 June 2012, my predecessor the right hon. Member of a UK transporter’s authorisation in 2011. Whilst this was a for South East Cambridgeshire (Sir James Paice), made 200% increase in number of MS notifications from 2010, only one it clear by means of a note for the Minutes of the of the notifications related to transport of an unfit animal, the remainder being technical or documentary non-compliances where meeting, that the UK shared the Commission’s view animal welfare had not been directly impacted. This is in contrast that better enforcement of the existing legislation across with, and an excellent improvement on 2010 where 9 of the total the EU, should be the number one priority in relation to 11 notifications had been related to the transport of unfit animals. further work in this legislative area. It is believed that the UK’s persistence in reporting such activities The Government will take every opportunity to reinforce and widespread communication to both trade and professional journals in 2010-2011 had a positive impact in reducing the risk this message at Agriculture Council meetings in the of unfit animals being transported to the UK from other MS.” future when the welfare in transport legislation is discussed.

Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to his contributions of 13 December 2012, Official his contributions of 13 December 2012, Official Report, columns 529-42, on live animal exports, what Report, column 529, on live animal exports, what his steps he could take to intervene in live animal transport policy is on a zero tolerance enforcement of animal to another EU member state if there is (a) evidence of welfare provisions; and if he will make a statement. or (b) reasonable grounds to believe that mistreatment [135859] of animals is occurring after they leave the UK. [135853] Mr Heath: Where there is a significant risk of animals being transported in breach of the strict EU rules on Mr Heath: Article 26 of Council Regulation (EC) the protection of animals during transport, I will ensure 1/2005 sets out the procedures for the notification of that inspection rates are increased to reflect this risk. any infringements of the welfare in transport legislation This is why 100% of livestock consignments exported to the relevant competent authority which may have for slaughter from, Ramsgate are now inspected by the occurred after animals have left the UK. In particular, Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency at paragraph 6 permits member states to temporarily suspend the point of loading. the transporter or means of transport, in the case of I also made it clear in my speech during the debate on repeated or serious infringements. The Animal Health live animal exports (see column 532) that this Government and Veterinary Laboratories Agency (AHVLA) have will not tolerate the use of sub-standard or faulty used these powers to suspend the use of a total of vehicles when used to transport animals. 10 vehicles that have been approved and certified in another member state, until such a time as the identified faults have been addressed Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to In addition, the AHVLA will report any suspected his contributions 13 December 2012, Official Report, serious breach of the welfare in transport legislation to column 529, on live animal exports, what instructions the relevant local authority with a view to investigation or criteria he has issued to the Animal Health and and possible prosecution. Veterinary Laboratory Agency to implement a zero tolerance policy; and what measures he will take Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State against (a) transporters authorised to operate in the for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) pursuant UK and (b) transporters authorised to operate in to his contributions of 13 December 2012, Official other EU member states under this policy. [135860] Report, column 531, on live animal exports, what discussions he has had with the European Commission Mr Heath: The changes made in relation to Animal on the (a) enforcement of animal welfare provisions Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency operational and (b) equal enforcement of all animal welfare activities in relation to exports via Ramsgate are being provisions relating to live animal exports across the reflected in the terms of their Operations Manual. EU; [135857] (2) pursuant to his contributions of 13 December Transporters are not separately authorised to operate 2012, Official Report, columns 524-42, on live animal in this country and in other member states. Once authorised, exports, whether he will raise equal enforcement of a transporter can operate in any member state it so animal welfare provisions within the EU live export chooses. trade at the next meeting of the European Council. Any regulatory action taken by DEFRA against [135858] transporters authorised in another member state must be in accordance with the requirements of article 26 of Mr Heath: The comments referred to in column 531. Council Regulation (EC) 1/2005. of the debate on live animal exports concerned my bilateral discussions with competent authorities in other Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State member states. Should the outcome of any of these for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to bilateral discussions be unsatisfactory, the issue will be his contributions of 13 December 2012, Official subsequently raised with the EU Commission. As regards Report, columns 524-42, on live animal exports, what direct discussions with the EU Commission, DEFRA assessment he has made of other EU member states officials are in frequent contact with them on a wide which receive live animal exports from the UK and range of enforcement issues concerning a wide range of their compliance to animal welfare provisions that animal species subject to the welfare in transport legislation. govern the live animal export trade in Europe. [135861] 209W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 210W

Mr Heath: The performance of other member states BBC: Accountancy in relation to their own implementation of, and compliance to, the requirements of Council Regulation (EC) 1/2005, Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for is monitored and reported on by inspectors of the Food Culture, Media and Sport what recent discussions she and Veterinary Office part of the EU Commission. has had with the BBC Trust on providing the National Their inspection reports are made publicly available. Audit Office with unrestricted access to BBC accounts. Under these circumstances, it would not be appropriate [134815] for the UK to undertake any separate assessment of individual member state performance. Mr Vaizey: There have been no recent discussions because in September 2011 the then Secretary of State Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State laid before Parliament an amended version of the for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to Agreement which gave the National Audit Office (NAO) his contributions of 13 December 2012, Official full access to the BBC for carrying out value for money Report, columns 524-42, on live animal exports, reviews. Under the amended Agreement the NAO is whether he has raised the inadequate enforcement of required to provide the BBC with an annual schedule of animal welfare provisions with (a) Ministers of other value for money reviews which can be amended on a EU member states which receive live animal exports specified date every quarter. from the UK and (b) the European Commission in the last six months. [135862] Broadband Mr Heath: Day to day questions relating to the enforcement of animal welfare during transport rules Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for are normally dealt with by DEFRA officials in conjunction Culture, Media and Sport whether her Department has with their counterparts in the competent authority had discussions with Network Rail on use of its ducts concerned, in line with the requirements for mutual and land for a platform for fibre access to support the assistance and exchange of information laid down in provision of broadband across the UK. [134481] Article 24 of Council Regulation (EC) 1/2005. If the problem is suitably serious or complex in Mr Vaizey: Network Rail were one of the companies nature, possibly involving both animal health and welfare that considered becoming a BDUK framework supplier, issues, DEFRA’s chief veterinary officer will discuss the but later withdrew from the process. The company issue or write to the equivalent head of veterinary would have considered how best to use its network services in the country concerned, copying any during that time, but there have been no subsequent correspondence to the EU Commission as appropriate. discussions with the company on this subject. This has generally been successful in the past in resolving specific technical issues relating to enforcement of the Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State welfare in transport legislation. for Culture, Media and Sport what assistance her The last ministerial discussion on the welfare in Department is offering to local authorities to help transport legislation (which included the EU them complete the relevant procurement work for the Commission in an observational capacity) took place in rollout of broadband. [134766] the Agriculture Council meeting on 18 June. Ministers agreed at this meeting that in moving forward, the Mr Vaizey: To assist local authorities with the number one priority should be an improvement in the procurement process, Broadband Delivery UK (BDUK) enforcement of the existing requirements of the legislation has put in place a framework delivery contract. Local across the EU. authorities can run mini competitions from the framework to select a pre-qualified supplier to deliver broadband services for a local project. In addition, BDUK provides a range of logistical, technical, commercial and legal support to local authority project teams to support the CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT delivery of the local projects.

Aerials: Haslingden Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what steps her Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Department is taking to encourage small and medium- Culture, Media and Sport if she will update the sized enterprises to bid for contracts relating to Haslingden television transmitter following the loss of broadband rollout. [134767] television channels by people living in that area. [134978] Mr Vaizey: Small and medium-sized enterprises (SME’s) may benefit in two ways from Broadband Delivery Mr Vaizey [holding answer 7 January 2013]: It is a UK’s (BDUK) £530 million broadband funding. Firstly, matter for the commercial multiplex operators as to through subcontracts as part of the delivery supply whether or not the Haslingden relay is upgraded to chain, for example in carrying out civil works, and carry the commercial multiplexes. I understand that the secondly through increased business opportunities from operator of the wind farm which necessitated the aerial the improved connectivity. Both the rural and urban realignment of a number of households from the Winter programmes require local authorities bidding for funding Hill relay, which carries the commercial multiplexes, to to demonstrate that their proposals fit with the the Haslingden relay, has offered to help those households Government’s approach to using SMEs in delivering affected to switch to Freesat if they wish. Government projects. The requirements of the Urban 211W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 212W

Broadband Fund explicitly require cities to link the is complete. If the project keeps to the timetable that we roll-out of faster broadband to increasing the capabilities have set out we would expect it to be possible for a of SMEs. contract to be agreed by April 2013. In addition there is a £20 million joint Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA)- Broadband: Rural Areas BDUK Rural Community Broadband Fund aimed at community projects, for which smaller suppliers could Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State be beneficiaries and small companies located in those for Culture, Media and Sport what meetings her communities could be beneficiaries from improved Department has had with EU officials on broadband broadband connectivity. rollout since 2010. [134765]

Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Vaizey: The Department for Culture, Media and Culture, Media and Sport what estimate she has made Sport (DCMS) worked closely with the Commission of the area of the UK that is not yet served by high during the preparation and submission of its state aid speed digital broadband; and if she will make a notification between 2010 and 2012. During this period statement. [135382] DCMS officials had a number of face-to-face meetings, conference calls and email exchanges with Commission Mr Vaizey [holding answer 7 January 2013]: The officials that related to, or informed, either discussion Ofcom Infrastructure Report update, published on 16 papers, the pre-notification or the notification of state November 2012, estimates that superfast broadband aid to the UK’s national superfast broadband scheme. from commercial suppliers was available to 65% of UK premises at that time. The £530 million Government Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State investment programme, combined with a similar level for Culture, Media and Sport what proportion of of local authority investment, aims to increase availability Broadband Delivery UK’s annual budget has been of superfast broadband to 90% of UK premises and spent on expanding broadband within rural areas in universal access to a minimum service of 2 Mbps. each of the last three years (a) in cash terms and (b) as a proportion of its expenditure. [134769] Broadband Delivery UK Mr Vaizey: The proportion of Broadband Delivery Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State UK’s (BDUK) administration budget spent on the for Culture, Media and Sport with reference to rural broadband delivery programme in (a) cash and Broadband UK’s (BDUK) annual report and accounts (b) as a proportion of expenditure is: in 2010-11 (a) of 2011-12, in respect of what BDUK’s £10 million £1 million and (b) 100%; in 2011-12 (a) £5.85 million expenditure on external consultants was made. [134768] and (b) 94%; and to the end of November 2012-13 (a) £3.8 million and (b) 63%. The decline in the proportion Mr Vaizey: Over the course of more than two years. of the funding spent on the rural broadband programme Broadband Delivery UK (BDUK) spent approximately reflects the addition of the Mobile Infrastructure Project £9.8 million on external consultants for the provision of and the Urban Broadband Fund to BDUK’s responsibilities procurement, technical, modelling and state aid expertise, in October 2011 and April 2012 respectively. BDUK legal advice, commercial and project support for local programme expenditure to date is £366,600, spent this authorities and the devolved Administrations and additional year. The proportion of this expenditure spent on the programme administration support. rural broadband delivery programme is (a) £276,000 and (b) 75%. Broadband: Hartlepool Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for for Culture, Media and Sport what recent discussions Culture, Media and Sport pursuant to the answer of 7 she has had with the Secretary of State for September 2012, Official Report, columns 478-79W, on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on rural broadband: Hartlepool, if she will bring forward broadband. [134770] proposals to improve broadband (a) connectivity and (b) speed for Dalton Piercy village in Hartlepool Mr Vaizey: Ministers from the Department for Culture, constituency; what discussions her Department has Media and Sport regularly meet colleagues from the had with (i) Dalton Piercy Parish Council, (ii) Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Hartlepool Borough Council, (iii) Durham County to discuss rural broadband. Council and (iv) private providers on connectivity of Dalton Piercy village; and if she will make a statement. Digital Broadcasting [135026] Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Vaizey: The Dalton Piercy village falls within the Culture, Media and Sport what estimate she has made Durham Partnership local broadband plan area. The of the potential costs of a shift of digital terrestrial Government has allocated £9.88 million to support broadcasting to the 600 MGHz band; and if she will broadband delivery within the area covered by the make a statement. [134482] partnership. As stated in my answer of 7 September, Durham county council is the lead authority for the Mr Vaizey: The question raised is one for the independent local broadband project for that area, and is best placed regulator, the Office of Communications (Ofcom). On to advise on the plans for deployment there. Detailed 16 November Ofcom published a statement on its plans plans will not be available until the procurement process to enable the release of new airwaves for future generations 213W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 214W of mobile devices, which will help meet consumers’ DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER growing demand for data on the move. The plan includes Elected Office: Access the spectrum at 700 MHz and 600 MHz. The Department has made no estimate of the potential costs of a shift of 8. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Deputy Prime digital terrestrial broadcasting to the 600 MHz band. It Minister what steps he is taking to widen access to is too early to make assessments of any impact or elected office and to support people with disabilities to benefit associated with any such move. become hon. Members. [135554] Internet Miss Chloe Smith: The Access to Elected Office Strategy, launched by the Government in July last year, aims to John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for provide practical support for disabled people who want Culture, Media and Sport what estimate she has made to become an elected representative. It includes a new (a) (b) of the number of pensioners and people from £2.6 million fund to help disabled candidates meet the low-income backgrounds with access to the internet in additional costs they face; free online training; three (i) Glasgow North West constituency, (ii) Glasgow, (iii) paid internships for disabled people on the Speaker’s Scotland and (iv) the UK. [134493] parliamentary placement scheme; and new guidance for Mr Vaizey: Ofcom’s Communication Infrastructure political parties on making reasonable adjustments to Report 2012 stated that current generation broadband meet the needs of disabled Members and candidates. is available in close to 100% of premises in the UK. In addition, the Government are pleased to be supporting Ofcom estimated that 1.3% of UK premises were in the hon. Member for Croydon Central’s Private Member’s potential broadband notspots (1.7% in Scotland), but Bill. noted that where broadband is not available via fixed City Deals access networks, customers may have access via other technologies such as satellite and mobile services or 9. Lorely Burt: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister local community schemes. Take-up—as opposed to when the outcome of bids for the second round of city availability—of fixed access broadband was 63.7% in deals will be announced. [135555] Glasgow, 66.9% in Scotland and 71% in the UK. The Department for Culture, Media and Sport has made no The Deputy Prime Minister: The second wave of “city additional estimate to Ofcom’s of the number of pensioners deals” was launched on 29 October 2012. We have or people from low income backgrounds with access to invited 20 cities to submit expressions of interest by no the internet. later than 15 January.Ministers will review these submissions and decide on which cities should go forward to negotiate Internet: Business a city deal. We aim to make these decisions by March and to have concluded deals with successful cities by Stephen McPartland: To ask the Secretary of State November 2013. for Culture, Media and Sport what steps she plans to take to ensure that small businesses with .co.uk Peers addresses are not put at a disadvantage by the creation 10. Nic Dakin: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister of the .uk domain name. [135025] what the Government’s policy is on the creation of new Mr Vaizey: Nominet is recognised by the Government peers. [135556] as the registry with responsibility for oversight of the Miss Chloe Smith: As stated in the Programme for “.uk” top level internet domain. It is a private sector, Government, appointments will be made to the House not for profit, public purpose company. Its day-to-day of Lords with the objective of creating a second Chamber operations are not subject to regulation by the Government. that reflects the share of the vote secured by the political Nominet welcomes suggestions about “.uk” policy parties at the last general election. development. It is currently carrying out a public consultation on proposals to create a new shorter “.uk” All-postal Primaries domain with enhanced security features which would 11. John Cryer: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister allow for the first time registrations at the second level what progress he has made on implementing the immediately before the dot (e.g. “culture.uk”). coalition agreement commitment on all-postal Nominet has informed Government that its consultation primaries. [135557] is gathering perspectives from a broad range of stakeholders—including small businesses and their Miss Chloe Smith: Government committed to fund representatives—to inform their decision-making. Nominet 200 all-postal primaries, targeting seats that have not has stated that it will be carefully considering that changed hands for many years. Following legislation in feedback in line with the company’s public purpose. 2011, the Boundary Commissions for England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are consulting on changes Procurement to constituency boundaries, which will have implications Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for for most existing constituencies. The Government will Culture, Media and Sport how many procurement take this into account in determining the way forward officers in her Department have relevant procurement on this proposal. qualifications. [135738] Electoral Register Hugh Robertson: All three procurement officers employed 12. Rushanara Ali: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister in the Department are professional members of the what assessment he has made of the most effective Chartered Institute of Purchasing and Supply (MCIPS ways of ensuring the completeness and accuracy of the qualified). electoral register. [135558] 215W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 216W

Miss Chloe Smith: The Government are committed The social mobility strategy set out our intention to to doing all they can to maximise registration and are help parents better balance work and home life. Last looking to modernise the system to make it as easy and year I announced a range of new policies which will do convenient as possible for people to register to vote. The just that: replacing the outdated and inflexible system Government have carried out a detailed programme of of maternity, paternity and adoption leave with a system research so that we could see the scale of the problem. which gives families the rights they need to choose what This includes funding an Electoral Commission study works best for them. on the completeness and accuracy of the electoral register; a literature review of all currently available research into electoral registration by an independent academic; HOME DEPARTMENT and a qualitative study exploring the barriers to registration Arrests: Greater London for those groups missing from the register under the current system. Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many people arrested for (a) Central Government: Devolution theft and (b) robbery in the Metropolitan police area were (i) UK nationals, (ii) nationals of eastern 13. Stephen Lloyd: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister European countries and (iii) other nationals in the last what recent steps he has taken to devolve power from year for which figures are available. [R] [135823] central Government. [135559] Damian Green [holding answer 7 January 2013]: In The Deputy Prime Minister: Since the coalition came 2010-11, 45,105 persons were arrested for offences relating to power, this Government have passed the Localism to theft and handling stolen goods and 12,236 were Act; created LEPs to bring together civic and private arrested for robbery in the Metropolitan police area. sector leaders to drive growth; agreed ‘city deals’ with Information on the nationality of those arrested is not the eight core cities and begun a second wave of city collected centrally. deals offering a further 20 cities the opportunity to Data for 2011-12 is scheduled for publication in devolve powers and budgets to the local level. spring 2013. We delivered a referendum in Wales which resulted in Arrests: Young People the Assembly assuming primary law making powers in all 20 devolved policy areas and we established the Silk Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for the Commission which continues its work to review the Home Department how many people under the age of present financial and constitutional arrangements in 18 have been (a) arrested and (b) cautioned in each Wales. In addition, the UK and Scottish Governments region in each month since May 2005. [134914] are working together to ensure the smooth implementation of Scotland Act 2012 which represents the greatest Damian Green: Available information on arrests relates devolution of fiscal powers in 300 years. to the number of persons aged under 18 arrested for notifiable offences, by quarter, from April to June 2005 Social Mobility Strategy to January to March 2011 and are given in table A. Data for 2011-12 will be available in spring 2013. 15. Mel Stride: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister Data on arrests broken down by month are not what assessment he has made of the contribution of reported to the Home Office. shared parental leave arrangements to his social Data on offenders cautioned for all criminal offences, mobility strategy. [135561] between 2005 and 2011, provided by the Ministry of Justice, are given in table B. The Deputy Prime Minister: Good parenting has a Since the data in table A are based on notifiable crucial influence on child development, ensuring that offences by quarter, and the data in table B are based on children gain the cognitive and social skills they need to all criminal offences and by month, data in the two do well. tables may not be directly comparable.

Table A: Number of persons aged under 181 arrested for notifiable offences, by region and quarter, England and Wales 2005-06 to 2010-11 Yorkshire and Quarter North East North West the Humber East Midlands West Midlands Eastern Region

2005-062 Q1 (Apr-Jun) 7,021 14,322 12,450 6,635 7,451 7,461 Q2 (Jul-Sep) 6,300 13,573 11,404 6,848 6,945 8,415 Q3 (Oct-Dec) 6,652 13,623 12,505 6,748 6,502 7,597 Q4 (Jan-Mar) 6,624 13,224 11,506 5,645 5,408 5,891

2006-073 Q1 (Apr-Jun) 6,957 14,101 10,899 6,111 6,932 6,257 Q2 (Jul-Sep) 6,693 14,023 10,348 6,469 6,745 6,496 Q3 (Oct-Dec) 6,514 13,993 11,106 7,072 6,797 7,848 Q4 (Jan-Mar) 7,234 13,484 10,793 6,677 6,810 8,025

2007-08 Q1 (Apr-Jun) 6,658 13,593 10,614 6,860 6,553 8,686 217W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 218W

Table A: Number of persons aged under 181 arrested for notifiable offences, by region and quarter, England and Wales 2005-06 to 2010-11 Yorkshire and Quarter North East North West the Humber East Midlands West Midlands Eastern Region

Q2 (Jul-Sep) 5,778 12,226 9,410 6,089 6,292 7,436 Q3 (Oct-Dec) 4,964 11,158 8,532 5,693 5,736 6,610 Q4 (Jan-Mar) 5,234 10,886 8,629 5,398 5,726 7,088

2008-09 Q1 (Apr-Jun) 5,397 11,211 8,028 5,556 5,901 7,585 Q2 (Jul-Sep) 4,903 10,602 7,558 5,063 5,418 7,155 Q3 (Oct-Dec) 4,597 9,170 6,990 4,873 5,055 6,595 Q4 (Jan-Mar) 4,762 9,154 6,990 4,641 4,739 6,162

2009-10 Q1 (Apr-Jun) 4,720 9,731 7,457 4,788 4,591 6,997 Q2 (Jul-Sep) 3,910 8,982 7,043 4,574 4,071 6,275 Q3 (Oct-Dec) 3,495 7,910 5,961 4,126 3,810 5,665 Q4 (Jan-Mar) 3,645 8,193 6,015 4,199 3,721 5,228

2010-11 Q1 (Apr-Jun) 4,223 8,706 6,230 4,719 3,794 5,439 Q2 (Jul-Sep) 3,846 8,137 5,857 4,457 3,355 5,330

Q3 (Oct-Dec) 3,307 6,681 4,650 3,808 2,956 4,433

Q4 (Jan-Mar) 3,196 6,697 5,198 3,723 2,906 4,262

Quarter London South East South West Wales Total

2005-062 Q1 (Apr-Jun) 11,134 14,740 5,980 5,327 92,521 Q2 (Jul-Sep) 10,234 13,206 5,738 5,111 87,774 Q3 (Oct-Dec) 11,005 12,630 6,249 5,231 88,742 Q4 (Jan-Mar) 11,541 11,801 5,271 4,827 81,738

2006-073 Q1 (Apr-Jun) 12,780 13,118 — — — Q2 (Jul-Sep) 11,442 12,181 — — — Q3 (Oct-Dec) 12,817 12,958 — — — Q4 (Jan-Mar) 13,780 12,241 (23,625) (20,490) (353,816)

2007-08 Q1 (Apr-Jun) 13,016 12,921 6,002 4,672 89,575 Q2 (Jul-Sep) 11,138 11,681 5,468 4,586 80,104 Q3 (Oct-Dec) 10,627 10,536 5,142 4,207 73,205 Q4 (Jan-Mar) 11,102 10,300 4,644 3,675 72,682

2008-09 Q1 (Apr-Jun) 11,320 10,482 4,939 3,912 74,331 Q2 (Jul-Sep) 10,529 9,929 4,633 4,068 69,858 Q3 (Oct-Dec) 10,287 9,325 4,342 3,934 65,168 Q4 (Jan-Mar) 10,520 9,356 3,889 3,782 63,995

2009-10 Q1 (Apr-Jun) 11,385 9,653 4,441 3,936 67,699 Q2 (Jul-Sep) 10,106 9,037 4,223 3,695 61,916 Q3 (Oct-Dec) 9,834 7,712 3,779 3,374 55,666 Q4 (Jan-Mar) 11,344 7,317 3,360 3,194 56,216

2010-11 Q1 (Apr-Jun) 11,821 8,058 4,062 3,094 60,146 Q2 (Jul-Sep) 10,702 7,256 3,867 2,918 55,725 Q3 (Oct-Dec) 9,569 6,228 3,159 2,448 47,239 Q4 (Jan-Mar) 10,253 6,281 2,753 2,304 47,573 1 The minimum age at which persons in England and Wales may be arrested is 10. On occasion however, a person under 10 may be arrested if their age is not known at the time of arrest. All arrests of persons aged under 18, including those under 10 are included in the table. 2 Data for Q1 for the East Midlands region excludes data for Lincolnshire, as they were unable to provide data on the age breakdown of persons arrested for that quarter. 3 In 2006-07, Wiltshire and South Wales police force areas were unable to provide a quarterly breakdown for arrests. The full years data were provided in quarter 4. As a result, a total for all four quarters only is provided for 2006-07. 219W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 220W

TableB:Juvenile1 offenders cautioned2, 3 in each region4 in each month, 2005 to 2011, England and Wales Government Office Region January February March April May June

2005 East 834 765 849 1,013 1,006 1,008 East Midlands 642 751 759 861 739 817 London 929 825 920 883 882 1,030 North East 682 681 676 702 773 750 North West 1,152 1,198 1,430 1,367 1,391 1,480 South East 1,569 1,491 1,737 1,614 1,686 1,700 South West 613 707 713 788 793 923 Wales 519 469 525 594 549 632 West Midlands 947 891 1,120 1,119 1,160 1,314 Yorkshire and Humberside 967 1,048 1,276 1,190 1,317 1,168 Total 8,854 8,826 10,005 10,131 10,296 10,822

2006 East 1,070 1,031 1,152 1,062 1,201 1,484 East Midlands 985 819 929 861 1,033 782 London 1,014 1,030 1,123 902 1,090 1,097 North East 818 776 822 935 869 916 North West 1,069 1,174 1,242 1,385 1,347 1,374 South East 1,289 1,379 1,600 1,453 1,593 1,552 South West 890 840 940 880 897 962 Wales 527 532 634 609 653 722 West Midlands 1,065 1,127 1,284 1,358 1,333 1,319 Yorkshire and Humberside 1,214 1,229 1,488 1,333 1,114 1,181 Total 9,941 9,937 11,214 10,778 11,130 11,389

2007 East 1,259 1,200 1,361 1,251 1,139 1,241 East Midlands 843 874 927 874 853 907 London 1,246 1,209 1,335 1,105 1,172 1,154 North East 909 695 771 865 973 778 North West 1,294 1,205 1,594 1,306 1,365 1,314 South East 1,548 1,430 1,633 1,446 1,682 1,712 South West 918 833 1,187 1,106 1,191 1,151 Wales 483 449 496 566 601 550 West Midlands 1,282 1,105 1,601 1,197 1,517 1,313 Yorkshire and Humberside 1,261 1,305 1,438 1,377 1,376 1,229 Total 11,043 10,305 12,343 11,093 11,869 11,349

2008 East 923 972 941 934 1,045 907 East Midlands 727 708 747 739 719 657 London 956 1,024 1,059 953 959 939 North East 720 613 732 791 652 680 North West 967 1,032 1,099 1,159 1,069 1,167 South East 1,044 1,000 1,203 1,196 1,200 1,145 South West 913 962 967 1,134 915 1,015 Wales 501 585 527 494 511 481 West Midlands 918 926 947 919 772 953 Yorkshire and Humberside 826 1,057 1,027 939 924 833 Total 8,495 8,879 9,249 9,258 8,766 8,777

2009 East 697 795 936 998 971 830 East Midlands 510 501 570 527 480 536 London 704 772 940 755 844 885 North East 475 511 651 612 577 565 North West 780 771 898 781 886 894 South East 963 1,501 1,704 1,235 993 1,081 South West 533 510 577 550 491 559 Wales 527 569 470 424 325 571 West Midlands 589 682 852 520 603 541 221W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 222W

TableB:Juvenile1 offenders cautioned2, 3 in each region4 in each month, 2005 to 2011, England and Wales Government Office Region January February March April May June

Yorkshire and Humberside 652 671 793 817 885 811 Total 6,430 7,283 8,391 7,219 7,055 7,273

2010 East 541 487 693 777 662 561 East Midlands 361 378 427 402 423 443 London 458 551 603 540 463 533 North East 287 289 334 310 306 325 North West 548 655 687 650 608 704 South East 646 689 836 629 650 681 South West 381 348 477 417 394 439 Wales 304 256 279 280 335 279 West Midlands 370 391 453 366 392 407 Yorkshire and Humberside 455 437 538 442 404 457 Total 4,351 4,481 5,327 4,813 4,637 4,829

2011 East 452 419 492 428 493 454 East Midlands 405 376 401 420 435 392 London 335 362 404 342 369 379 North East 231 194 258 238 276 277 North West 459 473 502 442 489 534 South East 604 558 589 536 481 565 South West 360 356 389 363 368 450 Wales 227 209 253 201 246 230 West Midlands 299 307 340 333 339 321 Yorkshire and Humberside 340 356 375 393 414 402 Total 3,712 3,610 4,003 3,696 3,910 4,004

England and Wales East 5,776 5,669 6,424 6,463 6,517 6,485 East Midlands 4,473 4,407 4,760 4,684 4,682 4,534 London 5,642 5,773 6,384 5,480 5,779 6,017 North East 4,122 3,759 4,244 4,453 4,426 4,291 North West 6,269 6,508 7,452 7,090 7,155 7,467 South East 7,663 8,048 9,302 8,109 8,285 8,436 South West 4,608 4,556 5,250 5,238 5,049 5,499 Wales 3,088 3,069 3,184 3,168 3,220 3,465 West Midlands 5,470 5,429 6,597 5,812 6,116 6,168 Yorkshire and Humberside 5,715 6,103 6,935 6,491 6,434 6,081 Total 52,826 53,321 60,532 56,988 57,663 58,443

Government Office Region July August September October November December Total

2005 East 943 981 922 1,012 978 783 11,094 East Midlands 950 838 782 883 910 880 9,812 London 996 888 776 931 1,002 997 11,059 North East 783 619 813 790 705 557 8,531 North West 1,257 1,283 1,106 1,306 1,369 1,126 15,465 South East 1,636 1,625 1,371 1,433 1,513 1,416 18,791 South West 845 834 805 863 822 876 9,582 Wales 647 533 490 588 513 533 6,592 West Midlands 1,213 1,206 1,117 1,177 1,205 1,055 13,524 Yorkshire and Humberside 1,135 1,180 1,048 1,365 1,393 1,335 14,422 Total 10,405 9,987 9,230 10,348 10,410 9,558 118,872

2006 East 1,235 1,053 1,099 1,342 1,277 1,137 14,143 East Midlands 927 819 826 890 919 951 10,741 London 1,147 996 909 1,194 1,209 1,142 12,853 North East 780 852 803 811 874 775 10,031 North West 1,423 1,509 1,231 1,504 1,350 1,154 15,762 223W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 224W

Government Office Region July August September October November December Total

South East 1,504 1,445 1,298 1,463 1,679 1,357 17,612 South West 847 890 894 815 1,001 882 10,738 Wales 563 657 651 701 584 515 7,348 West Midlands 1,132 1,243 1,104 1,449 1,336 1,098 14,848 Yorkshire and Humberside 1,188 1,076 965 1,396 1,502 1,299 14,985 Total 10,746 10,540 9,780 11,565 11,731 10,310 129,061

2007 East 1,654 1,351 1,114 986 1,111 1,122 14,789 East Midlands 899 903 771 747 837 706 10,141 London 1,257 1,033 919 1,021 916 819 13,186 North East 890 901 609 758 688 594 9,431 North West 1,426 1,255 1,090 1,288 1,217 905 15,259 South East 1,712 1,456 1,206 1,332 1,316 1,096 17,569 South West 1,131 957 955 1,003 985 774 12,191 Wales 589 489 548 695 502 452 6,420 West Midlands 1,152 1,026 991 1,018 1,023 831 14,056 Yorkshire and Humberside 1,301 1,170 889 1,102 967 869 14,284 Total 12,011 10,541 9,092 9,950 9,562 8,168 127,326

2008 East 938 720 669 851 698 660 10,258 East Midlands 687 527 527 612 594 561 7,805 London 1,070 809 799 960 841 837 11,206 North East 750 566 523 596 607 455 7,685 North West 1,139 890 891 989 818 712 11,932 South East 1,204 1,123 927 1,090 959 876 12,967 South West 962 660 744 681 582 487 10,022 Wales 619 571 473 525 464 355 6,106 West Midlands 895 778 763 784 642 648 9,945 Yorkshire and Humberside 877 756 766 803 778 663 10,249 Total 9,141 7,400 7,082 7,891 6,983 6,254 98,175

2009 East 909 817 731 827 693 672 9,876 East Midlands 524 483 401 432 441 434 5,839 London 739 568 556 568 580 468 8,379 North East 529 467 397 371 305 313 5,773 North West 794 817 779 663 655 499 9,217 South East 1,093 945 903 874 716 701 12,709 South West 595 471 498 486 466 362 6,098 Wales 787 700 413 455 459 316 6,016 West Midlands 512 446 473 502 413 389 6,522 Yorkshire and Humberside 761 629 589 555 550 537 8,250 Total 7,243 6,343 5,740 5,733 5,278 4,691 78,679

2010 East 624 571 521 559 486 404 6,886 East Midlands 445 396 384 347 388 287 4,681 London 517 462 395 424 390 319 5,655 North East 298 256 271 296 287 232 3,491 North West 606 554 479 484 501 346 6,822 South East 712 641 643 646 666 540 7,979 South West 499 347 444 443 371 291 4,851 Wales 282 248 269 302 300 196 3,330 West Midlands 417 330 330 334 347 279 4,416 Yorkshire and Humberside 454 370 362 374 345 240 4,878 Total 4,854 4,175 4,098 4,209 4,081 3,134 52,989

2011 East 512 420 362 454 421 382 5,289 East Midlands 398 379 352 338 321 293 4,510 London 383 308 260 247 281 219 3,889 225W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 226W

Government Office Region July August September October November December Total

North East 252 239 205 257 238 206 2,871 North West 564 477 416 380 394 362 5,492 South East 534 582 462 464 437 366 6,178 South West 415 374 357 354 338 277 4,401 Wales 232 228 242 229 200 153 2,650 West Midlands 336 283 250 284 259 233 3,584 Yorkshire and Humberside 396 352 328 359 294 252 4,261 Total 4,022 3,642 3,234 3,366 3,183 2,743 43,125

England and Wales East 6,815 5,913 5,418 6,031 5,664 5,160 72,335 East Midlands 4,830 4,345 4,043 4,249 4,410 4,112 53,529 London 6,109 5,064 4,614 5,345 5,219 4,801 66,227 North East 4,282 3,900 3,621 3,879 3,704 3,132 47,813 North West 7,209 6,785 5,992 6,614 6,304 5,104 79,949 South East 8,395 7,817 6,810 7,302 7,286 6,352 93,805 South West 5,294 4,533 4,697 4,645 4,565 3,949 57,883 Wales 3,719 3,426 3,086 3,495 3,022 2,520 38,462 West Midlands 5,657 5,312 5,028 5,548 5,225 4,533 66,895 Yorkshire and Humberside 6,112 5,533 4,947 5,954 5,829 5,195 71,329 Total 58,422 52,628 48,256 53,062 51,228 44,858 648,227 1 Defined as being aged 10 to 17. 2 The cautions statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When an offender has been cautioned for two or more offences at the same time the principal offence is the more serious offence. 3 From 1 June 2000 the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 came into force nationally and removed the use of cautions for persons under 18 and replaced them with reprimands and warnings, which is what is presented in this table. 4 Defined as comprising the following police force areas: East—Cambridgeshire, Norfolk, Suffolk, Bedfordshire, Hertfordshire, Essex. East Midlands—Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire, Lincolnshire, Northamptonshire, Leicestershire. London—City of London, Metropolitan police. North East—Cleveland, Durham, Northumbria. North West—Cumbria, Lancashire, Merseyside, Cheshire, Greater Manchester. South East—Sussex, Thames Valley, Hampshire, Surrey, Kent. South West—Dorset, Wiltshire, Gloucestershire, Avon and Somerset, Devon and Cornwall. Wales—Gwent, South Wales, Dyfed-Powys, North Wales. West Midlands—West Midlands, Staffordshire, Warwickshire, West Mercia. Yorkshire and Humberside—North Yorkshire, West Yorkshire, South Yorkshire, Humberside. Note: Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extractedfromlarge administrative data systems generated by police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services within the Ministry of Justice

Bramshill Police College Jo Swinson: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for the The Department has not carried out public awareness Home Department how much capital investment there campaigns for a number of years and has no plans to has been in Bramshill police college in each financial make an assessment of a television campaign. This is year between 2009-10 and 2012-13. [134835] because we believe bodies such as the Carbon Monoxide and Gas Safety Society, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents, and the Camping and Caravanning Club Damian Green: The National Policing Improvement are better placed to determine how to direct such campaigns. Agency as freehold owner of the Bramshill site spent £19.7 million of capital on estates assets at the site Recent examples include the Gas Safe Society’s leaflet across the period requested. This figure can be broken campaign, available at: down as follows: http://www.co-gassafety.co.uk/downloads/ 25885_GasSafe_CO_Campaign_DL_Leaflet_2pp_AW_v1_lr.pdf £ million and advice on the Camping and Caravanning Club website: 2009-10 14.3 http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/ 2010-11 3.3 helpandadvice/camping-safety/carbon-monoxide-poisoning/ 2011-12 1.4 2012-13 0.7 Closed Circuit Television

Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Carbon Monoxide: Poisoning the Home Department what assessment her Department has made of likely trends in the number of CCTV cameras in operation in the UK up to 2015. Mr Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for the [135579] Home Department if she will make an assessment of the potential benefit of conducting a national James Brokenshire [holding answer 7 January 2013]: television advertising campaign on raising awareness of The Home Office has made no assessment of the likely the carbon monoxide risk associated with taking trends in the number of CCTV cameras in operation in barbecues into tents. [134499] the UK up to 2015. 227W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 228W

Communications Data Bill (Draft) James Brokenshire: The Government has received the report of the Joint Committee on the Communications Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Data Bill and accepted the substance of all its the Home Department what her latest estimate is of the recommendations. cost of fully implementing the draft Communications We will discuss these issues with the incoming Data Bill. [134909] Interception of Communications Commissioner, in order to ensure that he has the powers and resources he James Brokenshire: The Communications Capabilities requires to fulfil his duties under the proposed legislation. Development Programme’s business case is being revised We are looking at the definitions of communications at present. We will provide the new estimates in an data, given the wide array of information held by some impact assessment alongside a revised Bill. social media platforms. We will address this issue in consultation with communications service providers. Crimes of Violence: Arrests We also accept the Committee’s proposal for a centralised Single Point of Contact (SPoC), on the basis that it will Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for ensure the appropriate expertise is in place to safeguard the Home Department how many people have been (a) access to communications data. arrested and (b) charged with offences relating to A full response to the Committee’s report will be assault on (i) shop workers and (ii) other public-facing issued to Parliament in due course. The Government is workers in the last 12 months. [134919] committed to post-legislative scrutiny of its legislation.

Mr Jeremy Browne: This information is not collected Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for centrally. the Home Department what assessment she has made of the training of law enforcement officers in Crimes of Violence: Females understanding and using communications intercept powers; and whether she has any plans to improve that training. [134903] Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many female victims of James Brokenshire: The responsibility for delivering (a) grievous bodily harm and (b) actual bodily harm training to law enforcement officers is transferring from there were (i) of each age and (ii) in each ward in the the National Police Improvement Agency to the new latest year for which figures are available. [135321] College of Policing. We are working with them to ensure that training Mr Jeremy Browne: The information requested is not across law enforcement takes proper account of how available from the police recorded data collected by the communications technology, the communications industry Home Office. While statistics are held on the number of and communications usage are changing and how this recorded offences of grievous bodily harm (GBH) and might affect criminal behaviour. The primary requirement actual bodily harm (ABH), it is not possible to identify in law enforcement is to develop a broad-based knowledge either the gender or the age of the victim. and understanding of communications technology and In addition, recorded crime data is not available at usage, what information may be obtained from industry ward level. when authorised, and how this can be used to assist investigations. Databases: Telecommunications In his evidence to the Joint Committee on the CD Bill, DCI Steve Higgins (NPIA) said that since October Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010, a five-day course for investigators and analysts the Home Department (1) what her policy is on the has been rolled out to over 5,000 police officers and recommendations made by the Joint Committee on the staff. Measures are in place to evaluate this programme—all Draft Communications Data Bill that the Interception classroom based training, for example, is assessed three of Communications Commissioner should be given months after courses. The latest statistics show that increased powers to monitor communications data 91% of officers completing the core skills course believe requests, including testing of necessity and it has improved their ability to support investigations. proportionality; [134890] Surveys and data on communication data applications will be used to evaluate the long-term success of the (2) whether she plans to propose changes to the legal programme. The learning delivered by the programme definitions of communications data and content to is coordinated with regular briefings for police forces. reflect current communications practices; [134902] (3) what her policy is towards the establishment of a Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State specialised single point of contact unit for for the Home Department what assessment she has communications data requests by infrequent users; and made of the effectiveness with which law enforcement what assessment she has made of the effect that such a agencies use their powers to intercept communications unit would have on operational practice; [134906] under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers (4) if she will keep communications monitoring laws Act 2000. [134904] under regular review and if necessary bring forward legislative proposals to amend those laws in the light of James Brokenshire: The 2008 Privy Council Review the fast changing nature of communications practices. of Intercept as Evidence stated that interception “is [134908] essential for national security and so must be retained 229W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 230W and protected”. In his 2011 report, the Interception of Mr Harper: The alleged mistreatment of returnees to Communications Commissioner states that: Sri Lanka has been fully considered by the UK Border “lawful interception and the use of communications data Agency. Guidance was issued in a country policy bulletin represent significant, cost-effective tools in the fight against the for Sri Lanka, published on the UK Border Agency growing number and variety of threats faced by the citizens of the website in October 2012. Following consideration of UK.” the evidence published by Freedom from Torture, Human Interception is used as part of a range of investigative Rights Watch and Tamils against Genocide it was concluded techniques to combat terrorism and tackle serious crime. that it did not support the assertion that a change in the UK Border Agency’s policy on returns to Sri Lanka is Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for warranted. the Home Department what assessment she has made of the long-term viability of the current voluntary Employment Agencies system of provision of communications data by overseas companies to UK public authorities. [134905] Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what the total spending on James Brokenshire: There are constructive working recruitment agencies by her Department was in each relationships between overseas providers and UK public month from July to December 2012. [135204] authorities. Our aim is to maintain and enhance these relationships so public authorities can get better access James Brokenshire: The Home Office accounting system to communications data. The new legislation will provide does not separately identify spending on recruitment us with an updated legal mandate to work collaboratively agencies. with overseas providers to invest in systems to ensure Entry Clearances that the data is retained appropriately and is available (subject to robust safeguards) to public authorities in a Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for form that is accessible to them. the Home Department how many migrants have entered the country on a tourist visa and then not Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for returned to their country of origin in each of the last the Home Department how many public authorities five years. [132265] are currently allowed access to communications data and whether she plans to increase or decrease the Mr Harper: Since the phasing out of embarkation number of authorities that will be covered by the controls in 1994, no Government has ever been able to powers contained in the draft Communications Data produce an accurate figure for the number of people Bill. [134907] who are in the country illegally. By its very nature, it is impossible to quantify accurately and that remains the James Brokenshire: A full list of those authorities case. Information on the number of tourist visitors to currently approved by Parliament to access communications the United Kingdom who overstayed their visa over the data is contained in the Regulation of Investigatory last five years could be obtained only by the detailed Powers (Communications Data) Order 2010. examination of individual case records at disproportionate In terms of the current proposals, only four bodies or cost. types of body are currently listed on the face of the Bill: e-Borders screens over 64% of passenger movements the police, intelligence agencies, the National Crime in and out of the UK (including 100% of commercial Agency and HM Revenue and Customs. The Bill draft aviation routes from outside the EEA). e-Borders enables already makes clear that local authorities will not have us to target the most harmful individuals and supports access to additional data generated under the Bill and if the ability to undertake effective exit checks as passengers other bodies cannot justify their access, they will not leave the UK. It processes in excess of 138 million receive it. passenger and crew movements a year across more than Parliament will scrutinise and approve the proposed 4,300 routes. list of public authorities, the data they can access, and e-Borders is one of a comprehensive suite of checks the purposes for which it can be accessed. being carried out at the border. Through screening Deportation: Sri Lanka passenger data against wider watchlists and databases, the system has proved successful in detecting previously unknown individuals and providing an intelligence-led Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State basis to undertaking interventions at ports of arrival or for the Home Department what recent representations departure and elsewhere across the globe. she has received from human rights groups on the UK’s returns policy to Sri Lanka. [135481] Entry Clearances: India

Mr Harper: Representations have been made by Freedom Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for the from Torture who have made allegations as to mistreatment Home Department how many visitor visas were of Tamil returnees to Sri Lanka from the UK. applied for by people from India in each of the last Similar representations and allegations have been three years; and how many such applications were made by Human Rights Watch and Tamils against granted. [127782] Genocide. Mr Harper: Visit visa applications can be submitted Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State worldwide at any of the UK Border Agency’s visa for the Home Department what recent consideration application centres, regardless of the applicants’ nationality. she has given to the UK’s returns policy to Sri Lanka. The figures provided are for visit visa applications [135482] submitted by Indian nationals in India only. 231W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 232W

Mr Harper [holding answer 18 December 2012]: Of Total visitors successful applications submitted between 1 July and 30 Financial year Applications Issued September 2012, the following received a pre-licence 2009-10 269,885 236,240 visit: 2010-11 292,293 255,140 Percentage 2011-12 292,610 265,301 Note: Tier 2 8.22 These data are based on internal UK Border Agency Management Information. It is provisional and subject to change. Tier 4 47.05 Tier 5 4.54.

Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for the The decision to undertake a pre-licence visit is taken Home Department how many visitor visas for people on the basis of an assessment of risk. from India were decided (a) within four weeks, (b) between four and eight weeks, (c) between eight and 12 Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for the weeks and (d) after more than 12 weeks in the last Home Department what discussions she has had with year. [127783] the UK Border Agency on issues affecting tier 4 visas for (a) London Metropolitan university and (b) other Mr Harper: Visit visa applications can be submitted higher education institutions; and if she will make a worldwide at any of the UK Border Agency’s visa statement. [134794] application centres, regardless of the applicants’ nationality. The figures provided are the processing times for visit Mr Harper [holding answer 20 December 2012]: The visa applications for Indian nationals applying from UK Border Agency has kept Ministers fully informed India in the financial year 2011-12. about all of its decisions in relation to the case of London Metropolitan university, in particular the decisions Visitors Number to suspend and revoke the university’s tier 4 sponsorship licence. Resolved cases 291,504 Of which The UK Border Agency has also kept Ministers fully informed, where it has decided to take compliance Within 4 weeks 276,949 action against other higher education institutions. 4-8 weeks 13,760 8-12 weeks 401 Entry Clearances: Pakistan Over 12 weeks 394 Note: These data are based on internal UK Border Agency Management Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for Information. It is provisional and subject to change. the Home Department how many student visitor visas were issued to Pakistani nationals in each of the last Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for the three years. [131773] Home Department how much revenue was earned from applications for visitor visas from people from India in Mr Harper: There were 199, 304 and 440 entry clearance each of the last three years. [127784] student visitor visas (main applicants) issued to Pakistani nationals in 2009, 2010 and 2011 respectively (based on Mr Harper: Visit visa applications can be submitted published immigration statistics for 2010 and 2011 and worldwide at any of the UK Border Agency’s visa on provisional internal UK Border Agency management application centres, regardless of the applicants’ nationality. information for 2009). The data provided in the table is for applications and The latest Home Office immigration statistics on income received for visit visa applications submitted by entry clearance visas issued is published in the release Indian nationals in India. Immigration Statistics release, which is available at: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research- Financial year Applications Income (£) statistics/research-statistics/immigration-asylum-research/ immigration-q3-2012/ 2009-10 269,885 24,191,549 A copy of the latest release “Immigration Statistics 2010-11 292,293 27,020,814 July-September 2012” has been placed in the House 2011-12 292,610 30,108,361 Library. Note: These data are based on internal UK Border Agency Management Information. It is provisional and subject to change. Immigration

Entry Clearances: Overseas Students Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if she will estimate the additional cost of the delivery of those public services for which Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for the her Department is responsible arising from inward Home Department what proportion of the applicants migration since 1997. [134290] who applied for sponsor status between 1 July and 30 September 2012 and have had their sponsor status Mr Harper: The Department does not routinely collate approved received a pre-registration visit before the information needed to provide such estimates, and approval by points-based system tier. [134379] to do so would incur disproportionate cost. 233W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 234W

Immigration Controls Licensing Laws

Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for the Guto Bebb: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many times Warnings Index Home Department (1) if she will broaden the checks have been suspended at ports of entry in the last definition of ancillary sale for the purposes of easing year; and at which ports of entry have these the licensing burdens for businesses currently covered suspensions taken place. [133121] by such a definition; [135096] (2) what steps she is taking to reduce the licensing Mr Harper [holding answer 12 December 2012]: All burdens on ancillary sellers of alcohol; and what passengers who present themselves at the PCP on arrival barriers she is putting in place to prevent the abuse of to the UK or juxtaposed controls are examined by a such a reduction in alcohol licensing requirements. Border Force officer and checked against a Home Office [135097] database before being allowed into the UK. Giving more detailed information would prejudice the security Mr Jeremy Browne: The Government is committed to of the UK Border. reducing unnecessary regulation for businesses. Reducing the licensing burdens on ancillary sellers of alcohol is Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for the one of the proposals in the alcohol strategy on which Home Department what the UK Border Agency’s we are currently consulting. This includes seeking views service standard targets are for processing in-country on the definition of ancillary sales and the impact this immigration applications for limited leave to remain proposal could have on the licensing objectives. We will and permanent leave to remain by (a) points-based publish our response to the consultation in due course, system tier and (b) category. [134119] after it has closed on 6 February. Mr Harper [holding answer 17 December 2012]: The Passports UK Border Agency’s service targets for processing John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for the in-country immigration applications for limited leave to Home Department what estimate she has made of the remain and permanent leave to remain are published on number of passports that were issued for residents of their website and the following table is taken from the (a) Glasgow, (b) Scotland and (c) the UK in (i) 2009, document available at the following link: (ii) 2010, (iii) 2011 and (iv) 2012. [133789] http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/ aboutus/percentage-of-migration/ Mr Harper: I refer the hon. Member to the answer In-country applications—Postal service standards given on 5 December 2012, Official Report, column 2010-12 2012-13 801W. Percentage Time Percentage Time While the Identity and Passport Service does not normally hold information on the geographical location Family 65 In 4 65 In 4 weeks weeks of the applicant, work has been carried out on the Visiting the UK 65 In 4 80 In 4 location of the address from which applications have week weeks been made in the UK. Employment 75 In 4 90 In 4 The following table sets out the number of passports weeks weeks issued in each of the requested years by virtue of the Study 75 In 4 85 In 4 weeks weeks address from which the application has been received. Permanent Residence 95 In 6 99 In 6 Providing evidence of place of residence is not a requirement months months in considering an application for a passport. European Casework, 95 In 6 99 In 6 ECAA and Bulgaria and months months Number Romania Casework Calendar PPT’s issued to PPT’s issued to IPS PPT’s Accession 95 In 4 99 In 4 year Scottish postcodes Glasgow postcodes issued to all UK weeks weeks British Citizenship 95 In 6 99 In 6 2009 542,752 151,159 5,105,698 months months 2010 532,933 143,489 5,367,259 Sponsor Licensing 65 In 4 80 In 4 2011 541,550 151,800 5,259,835 weeks weeks 20121 561,498 150,704 5,122,180 1 2012 information up to month end November. Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for the Source: Home Department what proportion of in-country Data—HQ Ml Services monthly OUTPUT database for Scotland and Glasgow PPT’s immigration applications for limited leave to remain Police and permanent leave to remain were processed within the UK Border Agency’s service standard target Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for the between 1 January 2012 and 31 March 2012 by (a) Home Department how many police officers there were points-based system tier and (b) category. [134121] for every 100,000 residents in (a) the west midlands, (b) Birmingham and (c) each police authority area in Mr Harper [holding answer 17 December 2012]: Data each year since 2008. [135056] on the number of points-based system applications decided and the proportion of those decided within Damian Green: The number of police officers per service standard is published on an annual and quarterly 100,000 population, by police force area and Birmingham basis. Latest figures are available on the UK Border basic command unit, as at 31 March 2008 to 2012 Agency website at the following link: (full-time equivalent) can be seen in the following table. http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/documents/ Figures at basic command unit level ceased to be collected aboutus/percentage-of-migration/ from 2011-12 by the Home Office. 235W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 236W

Number of police officers per 100,000 population, by police force area and Police: Finance Birmingham basic command unit as at 31 March 2008 to 31 March 20121,2,3,4 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Avon and 218 213 207 200 187 for the Home Department whether the policing budget Somerset will be protected from the planned reduction in Bedfordshire 204 209 208 201 188 departmental spending in 2013-14 and 2014-15. Cambridgeshire 183 191 191 180 174 [134955] Cheshire 218 217 215 207 199 Cleveland 303 314 309 296 271 Damian Green: I refer the hon. Member to the statement Cumbria 251 258 250 238 228 I made in the House on 19 December 2012, Official Derbyshire 212 215 207 201 180 Report, columns 112-18WS. I have decided to protect Devon and 214 213 213 206 192 the police from the reductions in 2013-14 as a result of Cornwall the reduction in the Department’s budget announced Dorset 216 213 209 205 193 by the Chancellor at the autumn statement. I have also Durham 272 263 249 236 223 taken the decision to protect the police from reductions Essex 203 206 211 208 196 as a result of the public sector pay restraint announced Gloucestershire 234 235 223 214 204 at autumn statement 2011. I have not yet made a Greater 315 321 316 300 285 decision on police funding allocations for 2014-15. Manchester Hampshire 214 207 202 196 182 Procurement Hertfordshire 204 204 196 187 179 Humberside 248 233 225 213 201 Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what the monetary value was of Kent 227 231 229 220 208 contracts awarded by her Department to (a) Lancashire 254 259 253 ¦239 229 management consultancies and (b) IT companies in (i) Leicestershire 233 243 236 224 215 2010-11 and (ii) 2011-12; and if she will make a Lincolnshire 175 177 173 172 162 statement. [135173] London, City ***** of James Brokenshire: The value of contracts awarded Merseyside 331 333 334 318 302 by the Home Department and its Executive agencies to Metropolitan 430 432 436 430 411 management companies and IT companies in 2010-11 Police and 2011-12 was as follows: Norfolk 190 198 196 187 179 Northamptonshire 196 196 198 191 180 £ million Northumbria 285 294 298 289 274, Management North 202 185 188 183 175 Financial year consultancies ICT companies Yorkshire 2010-11 37.71 164.62 Nottinghamshire 224 227 225 215 200 2011-12 30.74 107.68 South 248 235 226 219 209 Yorkshire Redundancy Staffordshire 214 208 203 195 182 Suffolk . 188 182 175 174 163 Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the Surrey 179 170 172 169 175 Home Department (1) how many civil service posts Sussex 201 208 207 199 188 have been made redundant by her Department in each Thames Valley 194 198 201 197 , 193 year since 1999; and what the cost of redundancies has Warwickshire 198 189 182 172 157 been in each such year; [135499] West Mercia 210 208 201 189 184 (2) how many posts have been declared redundant by West Midlands 324 332 329 309 295 each of her Department’s Executive agencies and West Yorkshire 269 268 261 249 232 non-departmental public bodies in each year since Wiltshire 190 191 182 168 160 1999; and what the cost of those redundancies has Dyfed-Powys 237 236 236 229 223 been. [135500] Gwent 266 257 257 268 258 James Brokenshire: Information on compulsory North Wales 234 234 234 225 214 redundancies is held on employees rather than the South Wales 264 255 253 247 231 number of posts made redundant within the Department. Total of all 43 264 266 264 254 243 forces Between 1998-99 and 2010-11, there were no compulsory Birmingham 304 307 303 225 — redundancies in the Home Office and its agencies. Note: In 2011-12, there were 27 compulsory redundancies 1. This table contains full-time equivalent figures that have been rounded to in the Home Department and its Executive agencies the nearest whole number. 2. Officers per 100,000 population for City of London and Metropolitan and in 2012-13 (to 30 November 2012), there have police are combined. been 23. 3. The number of police officers for Birmingham basic command unit for 31 March 2011 is the sum of Birmingham East, Birmingham North, Birmingham In 2012-13 (to 30 November 2012), the Home South and Birmingham West and Central. The number of police officers for Department has been charged the following amounts in 31 March 2008 to 2010 for Birmingham basic command unit are the sum of relation to compulsory redundancies: West Midlands D1-03, E1-E3 and F1-F3 basic command units. 4. Figures at basic command unit level ceased to be collected from 2011/12 (i) £136,906.30 for the Home Department; and following Lord Wasserman’s assessment. (ii) £406,698.14 for the Executive agencies. 237W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 238W

The costs for redundancies in 2011-12 have fallen to UK Border Agency be accounted in 2012-13 and therefore the above figures cover the cost of compulsory redundancies for both Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for the years. Home Department pursuant to the answer of Information on the number of compulsory redundancies 31 October 2012, Official Report, column 248W, on in the non-departmental public bodies could be made UK Border Agency, what steps she plans to take to available only at disproportionate cost. monitor (a) the quality of asylum claims interviews and (b) the quality of decision-making in respect of Redundancy Pay asylum claims made by women; and if she will make a statement. [133407] Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr Harper: The information is as follows: Home Department what the total amount of (a) The UK Border Agency continues to audit 10% redundancy pay paid to civil servants in her of all first instance asylum interviews and decisions Department was in each month from July to December against a detailed quality assurance framework drawn 2012. [135202] up and agreed with the UN High Commissioner for Refugees. In the 12-month period to November 2012, James Brokenshire: The amounts of redundancy pay, 1,402 cases were sampled, and average quality scores paid to civil servants in the Home Office in the months were: July to December 2012 is shown in the following table: Interview: 91.5%, decision: 89.7%. The quality benchmark is Table A considered to be 90%. £ A new quality assurance process is being developed to re-design the agency’s existing framework, providing July 26,279.290 a more detailed analysis of quality and expanding the August 0 scope to measure success at each stage of the end-to-end September 60,044.45 asylum system, looking at the critical elements of the October 126,079.75 process. November 0 (b) The existing quality assurance process is essentially December 79,717.59 the same for male and female applicants; however, the gender of the applicant in each audit is recorded, and Temporary Employment the criteria for assessment includes how the interviewer and decision maker handled gender-related issues. The Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for the agency’s monthly analysis of figures does not currently Home Department what amount her Department include a breakdown of claims by gender but a thematic spent on interim staff as defined by the National Audit review of asylum claims based on or featuring gender-related Office in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; and if she will persecution and gender issues was completed in June make a statement. [135174] 2011, and this highlighted areas for improvement which are being addressed. James Brokenshire: The Home Office has spent the following amounts on contingent labour and agency Mike Gapes: To ask the Secretary of State for the staff as published in the Home Office Report and Home Department what advice she has given to the Accounts: UK Border Agency on dealing with representations by hon. Members on reviewing decisions on visit visa £ million applications in cases when the usual appeals process is not appropriate due to time constraints. [134029] 2010-11 34.7 2011-12 21.4 Mr Harper: UK Border Agency officials will consider representations from hon. Members outside the normal appeal procedures due to time constraints where exceptional, Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for the compassionate circumstances are involved, such as the Home Department how many temporary staff have serious illness or the death of a close family member. been recruited in her Department in each month from Further evidence will be requested from the applicant July to December 2012. [135203] and the application reviewed on that basis. If there is enough strong evidence presented, the refusal may be James Brokenshire: The Home Office, including its overturned and entry clearance issued. Executive agencies, recruited a total of 361 temporary staff during the period July to December 2012 as follows: Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Table 1: Home Office Group and its Executive agencies (CRB, IPS the Home Department (1) what the estimated cost to and UKBA) the public purse was of ultimately successful appeals Number against UK Border Agency decisions in (a) 2008, (b) 2009, (c) 2010, (d) 2011 and (e) 2012 to date; July 129 [135419] August 34 September 49 (2) what the total number of appeals made against October 75 UK Border Agency decisions for asylum cases was in November 14 the latest period for which figures are available; what the total number of successful appeals was; and what December 60 the total cost to the public purse was; [135420] 239W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 240W

(3) what the average cost to the public purse is of an Young Offenders appeal against a UK Border Agency decision. [135421] Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr Harper: Regarding the question(s) of cost: Home Department how many people of each age group up to 18 years in each region of the UK have Appeals are managed by the UK Border Agency (the been (a) arrested and (b) charged with a crime in the Agency). Information about the agency’s overall litigation last 12 months. [135146] expenditure is contained in its annual Resource Accounts. However, the agency does not record litigation expenditure Mr Jeremy Browne [holding answer 7 January 2013]: in the format which would enable it to answer the Arrests data for England and Wales are collected by the questions posed and to do so would incur disproportionate Home Office and published on an annual basis in the costs. National Statistics series ‘Police Powers and Procedures’. Regarding the question of appeals numbers/statistics Available data currently relate to 2010-11 for the age for the latest period: groups ‘Under 10 years’ and ‘10 to 17 years’ and are The latest published figures show that in Q3 2012 included in table A.06 of the latest internet-only release, (July to September), the total number of appeal applications which is available via: made is 1,920 and the total number of appeals allowed http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research- is 521. statistics/research-statistics/police-research/police-powers- procedures-201011 The Home Office publishes quarterly and annual Data for 2011-12 are scheduled to be published in statistics on the number of appeal applications and spring 2013. determinations. These are available in Table as.14 (annual) and Table as.14.q (quarterly) of asylum excel tables The Ministry of Justice has advised that data on volume four of the quarterly Immigration Statistics. persons charged are not collected centrally. The latest release Immigration Statistics July to September 2012 is available in the Library of the House and from the Home Office Science website at: JUSTICE http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research- Chief Coroner statistics/research-statistics/immigration-asylum-research/ immigration-tabs-q3-2012 Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) how many staff are employed in the office of Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for the newly-appointed Chief Coroner; [135250] the Home Department (1) what proportion of cases (2) what the budget is of the office of the Chief referred to the UK Border Agency (UKBA) were Coroner. [135255] processed on time according to UKBA’s targets in each year since the agency’s creation; [135423] Mrs Grant: There are currently three staff employed (2) what the UK Border Agency’s target for the in the Chief Coroner’s office, although the Judicial amount of time to process an average individual case Office is in the process of recruiting additional members is; [135426] of staff. The budget of the office for 2013-14 is £1.2 million, which includes the Chief Coroner’s salary and coroner (3) what the average amount of time that the UK training budget. Border Agency takes to process an average individual case is. [135427] Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice whether the Chief Coroner will make an annual Mr Harper: The UK Border Agency publishes extensive report to the Lord Chancellor under section 36 of the information on its performance as part of its commitment Coroners and Justice Act 2009; and if this report will to transparency. This includes information on the be laid before Parliament. [135256] proportion of cases processed in time, average processing times and service standards. Mrs Grant: The Chief Coroner will make an annual report to the Lord Chancellor and the Lord Chancellor This information has been published for the last two will lay a copy of the report before Parliament as financial years and is updated on a quarterly or annual required under section 36 of the Coroners and Justice basis depending on the publication. Act 2009. They will fulfil these duties once section 36 of The transparency publications include information the 2009 Act has been brought into force. on asylum, migration and international case loads; they can be found here: Civil Justice Council http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/aboutus/our-performance Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice in which areas he expects the Civil Justice Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Council to make savings in the financial year 2012-13. the Home Department what recent assessment she has [135275] made of the performance of the UK Border Agency in processing its caseload. [135424] Mrs Grant: The Civil Justice Council (CJC) will deliver two types of savings on expenditure in 2012-13: Mr Harper: The Secretary of State for the Home staff salaries and other expenditure. Department, my right hon. Friend the Member for In relation to staff salaries, the CJC has employed Maidenhead (Mrs May), gave her most recent assessment two full-time members of staff during 2012-13—an in oral evidence to the Home Affairs Select Committee assistant secretary and a finance and project manager. on 18 December 2012 (HC 563-ii). The post of secretary to the CJC was merged during 241W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 242W this financial year with firstly the post of secretary to Following the report of the Joint Committee and the the Family Justice Council and latterly the post of inquiry into the culture, practices and ethics of the private secretary to the Master of the Rolls. In addition, press, the Government is giving careful consideration to the post of communications manager for the CJC/FJC the question of whether these provisions should now be has not been filled. These decisions have undoubtedly introduced given the potential consequences in particular generated savings, although the precise sums are hard to for the conduct of responsible investigative journalism quantify given the shared nature of the roles. in the public interest. With regard to other expenditure, the CJC was allocated Dangerous Dogs £54,140 in 2012-13. It is anticipated that £40,640 will be spent organising various conferences, an independent Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State review of court forms and leaflets to assist self-represented for Justice if he will bring forward measures to improve litigants, research into the impact of court fees on compensation arrangements for victims of dog attacks. litigants, and a public legal education initiative in the [134773] current financial year. £13,500 that could not be used before 1 April 2013 has been surrendered to the Ministry Mrs Grant: There are several routes of redress open of Justice. to victims of dog attacks. The Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 included a Courts: Lancashire provision which places a positive duty on the courts to consider ordering compensation in all cases where an Mark Hendrick: To ask the Secretary of State for offender is convicted of a dangerous dog offence that Justice how many employees of magistrates and Crown injures or causes loss or damage to a victim. This courts in Lancashire (1) were made redundant in each provision came into force on 3 December 2012. The of the last two years; [134685] victim can also pursue civil damages. (2) were (a) on permanent contracts, (b) on Under the recently reformed Criminal Injuries fixed-term contracts and (c) employed by an agency Compensation Scheme 2012, victims of dog attacks on 30 September (i) 2011 and (ii) 2012. [134686] may continue to claim compensation where a dog was set upon them intentionally to cause injury. Cases where Mrs Grant: No employees of magistrates or Crown a dog is not kept under proper control and causes injury courts in Lancashire have been made compulsorily to a person do not fall within the core purpose of the redundant in the last two calendar years (2011 and to 30 scheme, which is to compensate direct victims of crimes November 2012). Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals of violence. Service (HMCTS) records indicate that two employees have left HMCTS under the voluntary redundancy Employment Tribunals Service scheme. The number of permanent and fixed-term contract Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State and agency employees of magistrates and Crown courts for Justice what evidential basis he used in developing in Lancashire for the requested years are as follows: his proposals on employment tribunal users as announced in July 2012. [135792] Headcount Mrs Grant: A broad evidence base was used to develop At 30 September 2011 At 30 September 2012 the proposals to introduce fees into employment tribunals, Permanent staff 331 301 including: previous Government consultations, independent Fixed term staff 6 0 research, responses to the consultation on a fee-charging Agency workers 3 11 regime, national surveys of tribunal users, Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service annual reports and Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 information published by the Office of National Statistics. The impact assessment and equality impact assessment Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for published with the consultation response provide full Justice with reference to the First Report from the draft details of the evidence base used and they are available Communications Data Bill Joint Committee and the on the Ministry of Justice website at the following link: inquiry into the culture, practices and ethics of the https://consult.justice.gov.uk/digital-communications/et-fee- press by the right hon. Lord Justice Leveson, what his charging-regime-cp22-2011 policy is on bringing into force sections 77 and 78 of Family Proceedings the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008. [135118] Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice if he will reform the family court system to Mrs Grant: Section 77 of the Criminal Justice and reduce the extent to which women participating in Immigration Act 2008 creates a power to alter the proceedings feel vulnerable and exposed. [135308] penalty (which can include a custodial sentence) for the unlawful obtaining of personal data, which is an offence Mrs Grant: The Government already has a number of under section 55 of the Data Protection Act 1998. provisions in place to help women who feel vulnerable Section 78 of the 2008 Act creates a new defence for or exposed in family proceedings. journalistic, literary or artistic purposes. The Revised Private Law Programme for proceedings These provisions were introduced by Government under the Children Act 1989 requires the court to amendment to the then Bill but custodial penalties were identify risks or allegations of harm at an early stage in not introduced nor the new defence commenced by the residence and contact proceedings so that it can consider previous Government after the Bill received Royal Assent. what action is required to safeguard the affected parties. 243W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 244W

Under Part IV of the Family Law Act 1996, a party Nationality Gender Region Referring agency can apply for a non-molestation order to deter someone from causing or threatening violence or molestation to Albanian Female North West UKBA the applicant or to any children. Vietnamese Male South East NGO Within the courts themselves, special measures such Nigerian Female South East UKBA as separate secure waiting rooms, video links and facilities Slovakian Male South East NGO to screen witnesses from the accused are available to Slovakian Female South East NGO support vulnerable and intimidated victims and witnesses. Nigerian Female South East NGO Albanian Female South East Local Authority Human Trafficking Romanian Female South East NGO Gambian Female South East UKBA Andrew Selous: To ask the Secretary of State for Romanian Male South East Police Justice what the (a) nationality and (b) gender was of Lithuanian Female South East Other each suspected victim of trafficking referred to the Romanian Male South West Police Trafficking Victim Support Scheme operated by the Nigerian Male Yorkshire UKBA Salvation Army in November 2012; in which local Nigerian Female Yorkshire UKBA authority area each of the suspected victims was Albanian Female West Midlands UKBA initially found; and which agency referred each case to Nigerian Female South East NGO the scheme. [134088] Nigerian Female South East Local Authority Chinese Female South East NGO Mrs Grant: In November 2012, there were 58 referrals Albanian Female South East UKBA to the Government-funded support service for adult Albanian Female South East NGO victims of human trafficking in England and Wales Vietnamese Female South UKBA administered by the Salvation Army. Details are provided in the following table. Judicial Review Nationality Gender Region Referring agency

Afghan Female Yorkshire UKBA Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Pakistani Female Yorkshire UKBA Justice pursuant to the written ministerial statement of Pakistani Female Yorkshire UKBA 19 November 2012, Official Report, column 22WS, on Slovakian Male South East NGO judicial review, by what method he has estimated the Slovakian Male South East NGO effect on (a) GDP and (b) other macro-economic Slovakian Male South East NGO indicators of (i) applications for permission to apply Albanian Female Yorkshire UKBA for judicial review, (ii) permissions to proceed to Albanian Female Yorkshire UKBA determination by the court and (iii) judicial reviews Cameroon Male Yorkshire NGO granted in cases related to planning or infrastructure Vietnamese Male South East Legal proposals; what these estimates were; and if he will Representative make a statement. [135771] Albanian Female North West NGO Ethiopian Female Yorkshire UKBA Mrs Grant: The public engagement exercise “Judicial Czech Female North West Police Review: proposals for reform”, published on 13 December Nigerian Female North West UKBA 2012, contained proposals designed to strike the right Nigerian Female North West UKBA balance between maintaining access to justice and the Hungarian Female North West Police rule of law and reducing burdens on public services. Romanian Female South East Police The document was accompanied by an impact assessment Nigerian Female Not known Self Referral covering the main possible effects of the proposals. British Male Not known Probation Lithuanian Female North West Police Chinese Female South East Self Referral Landlords: Prosecutions Polish Male Yorkshire NGO Slovakian Female South East Police Jamaican Female North East UKBA Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Vietnamese Male South East Social Services Justice what recent assessment he has made of the Gambian Female North West UKBA number of prosecutions of private sector landlords for Vietnamese Male North West NGO breaches of category one and two regulations. [135614] Vietnamese Male South East Legal Representative Jeremy Wright: The Ministry of Justice has not Nigerian Female South East UKBA undertaken any assessment of the number of prosecutions Czech Male North East NGO of private sector landlords arising from the presence of Albanian Female South East NHS category one and two hazards under the Housing Act 2004. Albanian Female South East NGO Eritrean Female West Midlands UKBA The presence of category one and category two hazards Kenyan Female Not known Legal is not an offence that can be prosecuted unless there is Representative subsequently a failure to: Ethiopian Female North West UKBA comply with an improvement notice (section 30); Sierra Leone Female South East NGO comply with a prohibition order (section 32); or Romanian Female North West NGO allow action to be taken on the premises (section 35). 245W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 246W

Prisoners: Foreign Nationals Mrs Grant: We expect the new Victims’ Commissioner to take up her post in January 2013. Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice The offices of the Victims’ Commissioner will be (1) how many foreign national prisoners have remained located in Ashley House, Westminster, which is part of in custody beyond their earliest release date in each of the Ministry of Justice estate. We anticipate that two the last five years; [134165] full-time members of staff will be employed in the office (2) how many foreign national prisoners were in of the Victims’ Commissioner. The budget for the office custody beyond their earliest release date in the most of the Victims’ Commissioner will be approximately recent period for which figures are available; and for £250,000 per year, including staff costs. what length of time in each case. [134166] Once the new Victims’ Commissioner has taken up her role, the Ministry of Justice will consider any changes Mr Harper: I have been asked to reply on behalf of to the scope of the post, if necessary, in consultation the Home Department. with the new Victims’ Commissioner. The Ministry of The following table provides a snapshot, for each Justice does not intend to review the role of the Chief April from 2010 to 2012, of the number of foreign Coroner. national offenders detained beyond the end of their Written Questions sentence in both prisons and immigration removal centres. Please note that data prior to 2010 are not considered Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for sufficiently reliable to provide. Please note that individuals Justice in how many answers to Parliamentary may appear in the figures for more than one month. Questions his Department has referred hon. Members Number to somewhere they would be able to find the information for themselves in the latest period for Foreign national Foreign national offenders detained in which figures are available. [134911] offenders detained in immigration removal As at April each prisons beyond the centres beyond the Mrs Grant: The Ministers in the Department answered year: end of their sentence end of their sentence 6,437 Commons written PQs during the 2010 to 2012 session. It would only be possible to determine in how 2010 701 1,213 many answers hon. Members were referred to somewhere 2011 516 945 they would be able to find the information by manually 2012 552 812 checking each answer. This would exceed the In September 2012, 547 foreign national offenders disproportionate cost threshold. were detained by the UK Border Agency in prisons Youth Justice following completion of their custodial sentence. A further 919 foreign national offenders were detained beyond the end of their sentence in immigration removal Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for centres. Justice what plans he has to upgrade the youth courts system. [135305] To provide details of the length of time each individual had been detained would incur a disproportionate cost. Mrs Grant: The Government is committed to Please note that we have been unable to provide the maintaining a distinct youth justice system, reflecting data in respect of the earliest release date and have the separate needs of children and young people. To therefore interpreted the question as asking how many this end, the efficiency and effectiveness of the youth FNOs subject to deportation proceeding have remained courts system is kept under review. in custody beyond their actual release date. Additionally it should be noted that the Prison Service run a number of immigration removal centres on behalf COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT of the UK Border Agency. Advantage West Midlands: Assets Victims’ Commissioner Joan Walley: To ask the Secretary of State for Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government with reference to Justice (1) when does he intend the Victims the answer of 23 May 2011, Official Report, column 466W, on Advantage West Midlands: assets, what Commissioner to begin his role; [135251] assets previously owned by Advantage West Midlands (2) where the offices of the Victims Commissioner have been sold; how much has been raised for the will be; [135253] Exchequer as a result of such sales; and what assets the (3) how many staff are employed in the office of the Department still plans to sell. [134645] Victims Commissioner; [135257] (4) what the budget will be for the office of the Mr Prisk: A list of the assets disposed of by the Victims Commissioner; [135258] Homes and Communities Agency since August/September 2011, and details of the associated receipts, have been placed in the Library of the House. The sale proceeds of Victims’ Commissioner and Chief Coroner land and property assets (“inventory”) sold by Advantage (5) whether his Department intends to review the West Midlands in the financial year 2011/12 can be role of the (a) Victims Commissioner and (b) Chief determined from their audited annual report and accounts Coroner. [135263] 2011-12 as £4.43 million. 247W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 248W

The Homes and Communities Agency has published Fire Services its disposal and development plan at: http://www.homesandcommunities.co.uk/sites/default/files/ Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for our-work/land_development_and_disposal_plan.pdf Communities and Local Government what assessment The long term strategy is to get all former Regional he has made of the ability of fire and rescue services to Development Agency owned sites in the best possible maintain services if further spending reductions are condition for disposal, by reinvesting receipts. These made. [135318] assets were bought by the national tax-payer and therefore it is right that ultimately the receipts are used nationally. Brandon Lewis: All fire and rescue authorities in This programme uses the Local Stewardship Model England are required by the Fire and Rescue National which recycles money to improve sites to create local Framework to have in place and maintain an Integrated benefits. This means that receipts will be spent on Risk Management Plan, which identifies local need and meeting the legal commitments that we have inherited sets out plans to tackle effectively both existing and from the former Regional Development Agencies. In potential risks to communities. The Integrated Risk total, the current estimate of commitments is equivalent Management Plan, which is subject to consultation to £310.3 million (in the hon. Member’s own locality, with the local community, enables each fire and rescue the cost of the former Advantage West Midlands’ authority to tailor the allocation of its resources to commitments is an estimated £40.2 million). local circumstances—evaluating where risk is greatest and determining its policies and standards for prevention Affordable Housing: Suffolk and intervention accordingly. As a front line service, fire and rescue authorities have Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for been protected by back loading formula grant reductions Communities and Local Government how much into years three and four of the current spending review affordable housing has been built in (a) Bury St period to provide them with the necessary time to make Edmunds constituency and (b) Suffolk in each of the the changes necessary to meet the reductions without last five years. [134574] impacting on the quality of services provided to their communities. Mr Prisk: Information about affordable housing by As I outlined in my written ministerial statement of constituency is not held centrally. Statistics on additional 17 December 2012, Official Report, columns 69-70WS, affordable housing provided in each local authority there is significant scope for fire and rescue authorities area are published in the Department’s live tables 1006, to make sensible savings, such as through reforms to 1007 and 1008, which are available at the following link. flexible staffing and crewing arrangements, better https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/live- procurement; shared services, collaboration with emergency tables-on-affordable-housing-supply services and other organisations on service delivery and These figures include both newly built housing, which estates, sickness management; sharing of senior staff, accounts for around 85% of additional affordable housing locally led mergers and operational collaborations, new over the last five years, and acquisitions from the private fire-fighting technology, preventative approaches and sector. working with local businesses. Fracking Environmental Impact Assessment Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Stephen Phillips: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government if he will Communities and Local Government if his consider further ways of safeguarding (a) landscape Department will take steps to streamline the character and (b) visual amenity in the planning environmental impact assessment process. [135301] process for fracking rig installation. [135088]

Nick Boles: I refer my hon. Friend to the written Nick Boles: The National Planning Policy Framework ministerial statement of 6 December 2012, Official Report, already expects the planning system to protect and column 71-72WS. enhance valued landscapes and, where appropriate, that landscape character assessments are prepared to inform Equality the preparation of local plans. Minerals plans are also expected to set out environmental criteria so as to ensure that permitted operations do not have an Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for unacceptable adverse impact on the natural or historic Communities and Local Government what proportion environment, which may include visual intrusion. Mineral of staff in his Department have received training in planning authorities must also decide if an environmental equality and diversity and the requirements of the impact assessment is required to inform consideration Equality Act 2010, within the last three years. [134588] of individual proposals, in which case the assessment will set out the impact on the local environment and Brandon Lewis: This information is not centrally held. possible mitigation measures. I would note that DCLG offers an e-learning package which is accessible to all staff. Local Government Finance More detail on the Department’s equality objectives can be found at: Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/dclg-equality- Communities and Local Government with reference to objectives-2012-to-2016 item 37 of his Department’s document, 50 Ways to 249W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 250W

Save: Examples of Sensible Saving in Local Directive 2009/28/EC with the introduction of Government, what he meant by (a) sock puppet and minimum separation distances between wind turbines (b) fake charity; and which local authorities have and dwellings by local authorities through entered into arrangements with such organisations. supplementary planning guidance. [135541] [135443] Nick Boles: The EU Directive 2009/28/EC does not Brandon Lewis: As 50 Ways to Save explains, the make any reference to minimum separation distances footnote source referenced is the Institute of Economic between wind turbines and dwellings. Affairs’ Discussion Paper, “Sock puppets: How the government lobbies itself and why”, June 2012, This can be found online, and it includes definitions of such HEALTH arrangements and case studies. Arthritis www.iea.org.uk/publications/research/sock-puppets-how-the- government-lobbies-itself-and-why Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pursuant to the answer of 19 November 2012, Official 50 Ways to Save also references the Taxpayers’ Alliance Report, column 384W, on arthritis, what assessment his research paper, “Taxpayer funded lobbying and political Department has made of data collection for people campaigning”, which includes further examples. with (a) ankylosing spondylitis, (b) psoriatic arthritis www.taxpayersalliance.com/tflpc.pdf and (c) rheumatoid arthritis attending rheumatology To assist the hon. Member in his visualisation of a departments. [133392] sock puppet, I would observe that DCLG Ministers in the last Administration authorised £38,200 of taxpayers’ Norman Lamb: I refer the hon. Member to my answer money to bankroll lobbyists, LLM Communications; in of 19 November 2012, Official Report, column 384W. turn, LLM then ran the supposedly independent ’Campaign Information for both out-patient attendances and in-patient for More and Better Homes’ which campaigned in episodes is available from the NHS Information Centre’s favour of the last Administration’s Regional Spatial Hospital Episode Statistics collection at the level of the Strategies, and issued press releases praising the (then) four-digit codes of the International Classification of Government’s policies and attacking the Government’s Diseases (ICD-10). Information is therefore available critics. for ankylosing spondylitis (M45), psoriatic arthritis (M07) and rheumatoid arthritis (M05, M06), subject to the Members: Correspondence limitation that information on primary diagnosis of out-patient attendances is not mandatory and is available Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for only for a proportion of cases. Communities and Local Government if he will obtain Carers a reply to the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton, who wrote to him on 19 October 2012 with Paul Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for regard to Joyce Lyons, and whose letter he referred to Health how much his Department has spent on the the Planning Inspectorate, who have not responded. identification of carers in each of the last three years; [135764] and how much it has (a) budgeted and (b) spent in 2012-13 on such activities. [135039] Nick Boles: The Planning Inspectorate replied on 14 November. Norman Lamb: The Carers Strategy “Recognised, valued and supported: Next steps for the Carers Strategy” Social Rented Housing made a commitment that the Department will provide additional resources for training health care professionals, Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State to increase their awareness and understanding of carers’ for Communities and Local Government if he will take needs for support. steps to ensure that the collection and collation by local To take forward this commitment, the Department authorities of lettings data in respect of the allocation has provided central programme funding over the last of social housing is (a) properly undertaken and (b) three years, as follows: accurate; and if he will make a statement. [134986] £69,095 in 2009-10 to the Royal College of General Practitioners (RCGP) to pilot training workshops for GPs to help them better Mr Prisk: Local authorities are required to provide to understand carers’ needs; data on social and affordable rent lettings as part of the £96,003 in 2010-11 to the RCGP to deliver further workshops Department’s single data list. We are committed to on carer awareness training for GPs and practice staff; and ensuring that local authorities fully participate. All £850,000 in 2011-12 to the RCGP, Carers UK and the Carers Trust to develop a range of initiatives to increase awareness and authorities are monitored on an ongoing basis for provision, understanding of carers’ health needs in primary care. completeness and accuracy of data. We will continue to The Department has budgeted up to £1 million for monitor and intervene where necessary. projects in 2012-13 building upon previous years’ work. We are open to representations on what further steps Bids have been received from five organisations and are can be taken to assist scrutiny and transparency in this being considered, with a view to making payment shortly. area. Paul Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for Wind Power: Planning Permission Health what steps the NHS Commissioning Board plans to take to satisfy (a) itself and (b) his Dr Whitehead: To ask the Secretary of State for Department that funding allocated for carers support Communities and Local Government what advice he and breaks is being spent for that purpose; and if he has received regarding the compatibility of EU will make a statement. [135040] 251W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 252W

Norman Lamb: The NHS Outcomes Framework 2012-13 cooling, but did show a significant improvement in includes overarching indicators to enhance the health-related several secondary neurologic outcomes among survivors. quality of life for carers, with a complementary indicator The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence in the Adult Social Care Outcomes Framework; and to (NICE) issued interventional procedures guidance on capture how well the national health service is supporting the use of therapeutic hypothermia with intracorporeal people with long-term conditions and their carers, to temperature monitoring for hypoxic perinatal brain injury live as normal a life as possible. in May 2010. The guidance assesses the efficacy and These indicators are reflected in the recently published safety of interventional procedures, with the aim of mandate to the NHS Commissioning Board, which protecting patients and helping clinicians, health care contains a clear objective on enhancing the quality of organisations and the NHS to introduce procedures life of people with long-term conditions and their carers, appropriately. to ensure the NHS becomes dramatically better at involving The guidance is available at: patients and their carers. Achieving this objective will http://publications.nice.org.uk/therapeutic-hypothermia-with- mean that by 2015, the 5 million carers looking after intracorporeal-temperature-monitoring-for-hypoxic- friends and family members will routinely have access perinatal-brain-ipg347 to information and advice about the support available— Information on how many newborn babies have including respite care. As set out in the mandate to the experienced oxygen starvation during birth in the last board, the Government expects the principle of ensuring 30 years; and what the long-term effects were in each equal access for equal need to be at the heart of the such case is not available as the ICD-10 codes used to board’s approach to allocating budgets. classify conditions do not identify ″oxygen starvation″ From 2013-14, the allocation of resources to clinical in its classification system. commissioning groups (CCGs) will be a matter for the NHS Commissioning Board. It will be for CCGs with Conditions of Employment health and wellbeing boards to ensure appropriate investment for carers support and breaks, in the new Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for system. It is for each health and wellbeing board to Health what proportion of staff in his Department determine its local priorities, including how it should requested (a) part-time, (b) job-share or (c) other support carers through the contributions made by local flexible working arrangements in each of the last five authority and NHS partners. years; and how many such requests were granted. [134992] Childbirth Dr Poulter: The proportion of staff working part-time Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for for the Department has been made available on the Health (1) what recent assessment he has made of the Office for National Statistics website at: effectiveness of brain-cooling treatments for newborn Civil Service Statistics 2011 and 2012: babies starved of oxygen during birth; [135345] www.ons.gov.uk/ons/publications/index.html? (2) how many newborn babies have experienced pageSize=50&sortBy=none&sortDirection=none&new oxygen starvation during birth in the last 30 years; and query=%22civil+service+statistics%22 what the long-term effects were in each such case; Civil Service Statistics 2008-10: [135358] http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110426084705/ (3) which NHS trusts have facilities for brain-cooling http://www.statistics.gov.uk/StatBase/ treatment for newborn babies who have been starved of Product.asp?vlnk=2899&Pos=&ColRank=1&Rank=422 oxygen. [135431] The Department does not centrally collect data on the proportion of staff job-sharing. Dr Poulter: Information on the national health service The Department encourages staff to work flexibly trusts that have facilities for brain-cooling treatment for through providing opportunities such as part-time working, newborn babies who have been starved of oxygen is not job sharing, term time only working, working from collected centrally by the Department. home and the use of flexitime. These flexible working The National Perinatal Epidemiology Unit (NPEU) arrangements within the Department are subject to has a UK TOBY Cooling Register of cooled babies, local managers’ discretion and therefore are not recorded funded by the UK Medical Research Council, which centrally so the actual numbers of staff working flexibly has information on the number of centres offering is not available. However, it is likely to be a large therapeutic hypothermia for neonatal encephalopathy, proportion of the work force that work flexibly. medical intervention to reduce brain damage, and improve an infant’s chance for a normal survival. The register Drugs: Prisons provides clinical guidance in order to promote uniform practice, to avoid inappropriate treatment and to foster Dr Thérèse Coffey: To ask the Secretary of State for continuing collaboration in future studies of Health (1) what his policy is on the role of abstinence neuroprotection following asphyxia. The register is available in drug treatment courses in prisons; [134582] at: (2) how many prisoners in each prison undertook www.npeu.ox.ac.uk/tobyregister drug treatment courses, by type of treatment, in each of From 1 January 2013 registration of cooled infants in the last three years; [134583] the UK will transfer to Badger.Net (Clevermed). (3) what the cost was of providing integrated drug The UK TOBY Cooling Register did not show a treatment systems to each (a) primary care trust and significant reduction in the combined rates of death (b) prison (i) in total and (ii) by prisoner in (A) and severe disability with cooling, as compared with no 2011-12 and (B) 2012-13 to date. [134584] 253W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 254W

Norman Lamb: The Government is committed to (2) how many new cases of diabetes have been rehabilitating prisoners with a drug dependency to live detected through the NHS Health Check. [135516] drug-free lives whenever possible. Current clinical guidance on whether to offer abstinence (detoxification) drug Anna Soubry: The number of eligible people between treatment is based on an individual need assessment 40 and 74 who have had a NHS Health Check from and sentence length. April 2011 has been published on the Department’s Recently updated clinical guidance states that, where website at: a prisoner receives a sentence longer than six months, http://transparency.dh.gov.uk/?p=20297 abstinence should be the treatment objective. Unless These data show that 1,703,085 people have received there are clinical reasons to the contrary, drug dependent a NHS Health Check since April 2011. Prior to this, prisoners spending any significant period in custody there were no comprehensive central data collections in will be stabilised, safely detoxified and released into the place to measure the number of NHS Health Checks community drug-free. received by eligible 40 to 74-year-olds. The number of For remand and short sentence prisoners, it is good cases of previously undetected diabetes found through clinical practice to either continue the treatment the the programme is not held centrally. prisoner had before arrest, or prepare them for the Hospitals: Food treatment they will receive on release and for opiate users, maintenance prescribing is often the most appropriate Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if treatment. For this group of prisoners the priority is to he will introduce guidelines to hospitals on the use of ensure continuity of care and reduce the risk of drug gluctose-fructose syrup in meals served to patients. related death on release. [135517] Data is collected centrally by the National Offender Management Service on the total number of drug treatment Dr Poulter: The Department will not be introducing courses provided nationally. Information for the last specific guidelines to hospitals on the use of glucose-fructose three years for which data is available is shown in the syrup in meals served to patients. following table. The Department’s ’Improving Hospital Food’ project Drug treatment courses provided in prisons in England between 2009 and 2011: highlights eight fundamental principles that patients Total, maintenance prescribing; and detoxification (abstinence) treatments should expect from hospital food. One of the principles Total maintenance Total detoxification Total prescriptions treatments is that Government Buying Standards for Food and Catering Services (GBSF) should be adopted where 2009-10 60,067 23,744 36,323 practical and supported by procurement practices. These 2010-11 61,109 30,650 30,459 standards address sustainability, animal welfare and 2011-12 64,916 33,198 31,718 nutrition; including reducing sugar content. Source: National Offender Management Service GBSF were launched in June 2011 and are mandatory for central Government Departments and are promoted Caveats apply to the data. Firstly, the data show the to the wider public sector, including the national heath number of treatments, not the number of prisoners service. receiving treatment and an individual could receive more than one treatment in the course of a year. Secondly, Human Papilloma Virus: Vaccination this data only records the clinical intervention that prisoners received when they first entered custody. It Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for does not record those prisoners who start on a maintenance Health what proportion of girls aged 12 to 17 years prescription and later received detoxification treatment. have received the HPV vaccination in England and Data on the provision of integrated drug treatment Wales through the NHS in the latest period for which systems to each primary care trust and prison, by total figures are available. [135357] cost and by cost per prisoner for 2011-12 and 2012-13 has been placed in the Library. Anna Soubry: The latest period for which published figures are available is the 2010-11 academic year, published by the Department in the report ‘Annual HPV vaccine Health: Screening coverage in England in 2010/2011’ a copy of which has already been placed in the Library. HPV vaccine uptake Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health for the 2010-11 academic year taken from the report is (1) how many people have taken the NHS health check shown in the following table. The Department is not since its creation; [135512] responsible for monitoring HPV vaccine uptake in Wales.

HPV vaccine coverage (three-dose course) of all routine and catch-up cohorts as at September 20111 Cohorts Vaccine coverage (%) Ageinyearsin academic year Born 2010-11 Number in cohorts At least one dose At least two doses All three doses

2010-11 estimates

(1 September 1997 to 31 August1998) 12 to 13 297,392 88.9 87.5 84.2 (1 September 1996 to 31 August1997) 13 to 14 304,747 85.9 84.1 80.9 (1 September 1995 to 31 August 1996) 14 to 15 304,062 89.4 87.7 84.4 (1 September 1994 to 31 August 1995) 15 to 16 306,007 81.9 79.6 75.7 255W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 256W

HPV vaccine coverage (three-dose course) of all routine and catch-up cohorts as at September 20111 Cohorts Vaccine coverage (%) Ageinyearsin academic year Born 2010-11 Number in cohorts At least one dose At least two doses All three doses

(1 September 1993 to 31 August1994) 16 to 17 310,595 78.4 75.8 70.8 (1 September 1992 to 31 August1993) 17 to 18 319,065 59.8 55.9 48.1 (1 September 1991 to 31 August1990) 18 to 19 323,826 55.6 50.3 38.9 (1 September 1990 to 31 August1991) 19 to 20 328,004 66.1 59.3 47.4 (1 September 1990 to 31 August1998) 12 to 20 2,493,698 75.4 72.1 65.8 1 Estimates have been updated (where possible) to include mop up vaccinations of eligible females that had not received the full course of vaccinations.

Influenza: Vaccination The uptake rates of all of the childhood immunisations recorded at ages one, two and five years increased in Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011-12 compared with the previous year, and are some Health how many people in England and Wales have of the highest up take levels on record. been issued with the influenza vaccine in the last five The Health Protection Agency updated its ‘Guidance years. [135448] for public health management of meningococcal disease in the UK’ in March 2012. This recommends that Anna Soubry: Information on the number of people chemoprophylaxis should be offered to close contacts in England who received influenza vaccine from their of cases, irrespective of vaccination status, subject to general practitioners in 2007-08 - 2011-12 as part of the certain criteria. A copy has already been placed in the national health service annual influenza immunisation Library, and the full guidance is available at: programme is shown in the following table: www.hpa.org.uk/webc/HPAwebFile/HPAweb_C/ 1194947389261 Number of people in England Influenza season/year vaccinated Mental Health Services

2007-08 7,911,879 2008-09 8,284,935 Paul Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009-10 8,300,213 Health what steps the NHS Commissioning Board 2010-11 9,046,742 plans to take to ensure continuity and sustained roll out of the (a) adult and (b) children and young people 2011-12 9,677,663 improving access to talking therapy programmes; and Information about influenza immunisation in Wales if he will make a statement. [135038] is a matter for the Welsh Assembly Government. Norman Lamb: The NHS Commissioning Board will take responsibility for the Improving Access to Psychological Meningitis Therapies Programme (IAPT) from 1 April 2013. The Department’s mandate to the NHS Commissioning Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Board and the NHS Outcomes Framework will ensure for Health what steps he is taking to promote the sustainability of both the Adult, and Children and preventative (a) clinical work and (b) medication for Young People’s IAPT programme. meningitis; and if he will make a statement. [134987] Mental Health Services: Training Anna Soubry: The United Kingdom routine immunisation programme provides vaccinations against Paul Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for causes of meningitis including: meningococcal C, many Health pursuant to the answer of 3 December 2012, pneumococcal and Haemophilus influenzae type b bacteria Official Report, column 634W, on mental health as well as mumps virus. The Joint Committee on services, how many trainees were funded in each year Vaccination and Immunisation—the independent experts for each modality of therapy; what the planned number that advise the Government on immunisation—is also of trainees was in each year; and how many trainees conducting an evaluation of the impact and cost- will be funded in each modality from 2012-13 to effectiveness of possible meningococcal B vaccination 2014-15; and if he will make a statement. [135037] strategies as a vaccine against meningococcal B bacteria is likely to be authorised. Norman Lamb: The original training target for the The Department publishes leaflets and other material Improving Access to Psychological Therapies (IAPT) as appropriate on MenC and other vaccinations; these programme was to train 3,600 new cognitive behavioural are available to general practice surgeries, health care therapists to expand the psychological therapy work centres and other settings, where immunisations are force in the first three years of the programme, 2008-11. being given (for example in schools). The need for The IAPT programme achieved this target with a total additional publicity, for example seasonal campaigns or of 3,868 trainees entering training in the academic years campaigns targeted at raising awareness among specific 2008-09, 2009-10 and 2010-11. groups is kept under review so that additional action of ‘Talking Therapies—a four-year plan of action’, this kind can be taken if there is any evidence, such as a. published in 2011, committed the programme to train a fall in uptake levels, to suggest this would be beneficial further 2,400 new therapists during the academic years in protecting public health. 2011-12, 2012-13 and 2013-14. 257W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 258W

The following table shows the number of trainees in each modality of therapy for each academic year:

Number Therapy 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 Total

Step 2 Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (low intensity) 510 727 517 536 459 2,749 Step 3 Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (high intensity) 487 1,004 623 291 322 2,727 Counselling for Depression 0 0 64 68 132 264 Couples Therapy for Depression 0 0 44 169 199 212 Brief Dynamic Interpersonal Therapy 0 0 63 27 58 148 Interpersonal Psychotherapy 0 0 86 82 155 323 Total 997 1,731 1,397 1,073 1,225 6,423 1 Includes trainees undertaking National Institute for Clinical Excellence approved Behavioural Couples Therapy.

Norovirus local authorities to provide adult social care; and if he will make a statement. [135356] Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for Norman Lamb: In the last spending review, we protected Health how many cases of norovirus were recorded by social care in the context of a tough settlement for local his Department in (a) England and (b) Birmingham government by providing an extra £7.2 billion. Independent in each year since 2010. [135355] research from the King’s Fund supported our view that Anna Soubry: The information requested is in the this was enough for councils to maintain services, provided following tables: they focused on efficiency. In addition, the Care and Support White Paper Number of laboratory reports of norovirus recorded in England since 2010 announced that the national health service would transfer an extra £100 million in 2013-14 and £200 million in Number 2014-15 for adult social care. The NHS and local authorities 2010 11,311 will work together to decide how to use this money so 2011 8,335 that it benefits both health and social care and promotes 20121 9,645 integrated working. Staff Number of laboratory reports of norovirus recorded in Birmingham since 2010 Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Number Health how many people in his Department earning 2010 248 over £50,000 per year have been employed (a) as 2011 176 special advisers and (b) in a political role in each year 20121 221 since 2010; and how many were employed in the latest 1 Provisional data. Data for 2012 are not yet complete. period for which figures are available. [134832] Source: Health Protection Agency Dr Poulter: Details of all special advisers including Not all individuals with norovirus will present to salaries are published quarterly in arrears and are available health services and laboratory reports represent only a on the Cabinet Office website. The latest data up to 19 small fraction of the true number of cases of norovirus October 2012 can be found here: each year, therefore the data in the tables do not represent www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/special-adviser- the true burden of norovirus infections. data-releases The Department has employed no other staff in a Respiratory System political role other than the documented special advisers.

Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for Health whether he proposes that there will be an DEFENCE individual responsible for the strategic overview of Written Questions improvements in outcomes for respiratory patients in the reformed NHS. [135299] Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence to how many and what proportion of Anna Soubry: The NHS Commissioning Board is questions for written answer on a named day his currently advertising the post of National Clinical Director Department had not provided a substantive written (NCD) for Respiratory Diseases as one of a number of answer by the day named in each of the last 12 months. senior clinical appointments. The NCD will take the [133551] clinical lead in driving improvement in quality across all relevant domains of the NHS Outcomes Framework Mr Francois [holding answer 13 December 2012]: for respiratory diseases. The Ministry of Defence strives to answer all parliamentary questions on time, but it is often challenging to answer Social Services substantively within the limited timescale for named day questions. However, 83% of named day questions Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for for answer between 1 December 2011 and 30 November Health what assessment his Department has made of 2012 were answered on or within five days of the the effect on the NHS of reductions in funding for day named. 259W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 260W

The information requested is shown in the following Mr Laws: We are still considering some of the table. recommendations in the Capital Review across Government, taking time to consider the implications Number not carefully before implementing any changes to the capital receiving a Number of substantive funding system. We intend to issue an update in the named day written answer Percentage not early part of 2013 and plan to publish the consultation questions on the day answered on the report at the same time. Month received named day named 2011 Schools: Inspections December 73 42 58 Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for 2012 Education which schools judged to be inadequate at January 128 78 61 their last inspection are being (a) closed and (b) February 95 55 58 converted to academies. [135367] March 105 73 70 April 98 53 54 Mr Laws [holding answer 7 January 2013]: As of May613761November 2012, four schools judged to be inadequate June 83 47 57 at their last inspection have been proposed for closure: July 100 78 78 St Mary’s Church of England Junior School, Slade September 68 55 80 Green Junior School, Sydney Smith School and October 77 57 74 St Catherine’s Catholic High School. A decision will be November 126 100 79 reached once the required statutory process has concluded. Total 1,014 675 67 132 schools judged to be inadequate are becoming academies. A full list of these schools will be placed in The Government has committed to providing the the House Libraries. Procedure Committee with information relating to written parliamentary question performance on a sessional basis and will provide full information to the Committee at Special Educational Needs the end of the current Session. Statistics relating to performance for the 2010-12 parliamentary Session are Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for available on the Parliament website at the following link: Education (1) what progress his Department has made http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/ in drafting a definition of independent special schools procedure/P35_Memorandum_Leader_of_the_House_ for the purposes of the Children and Families Bill; Monitoring_PQs.pdf [134739] (2) if he will include provision for independent special schools in the Children and Families Bill in EDUCATION order that children with complex needs are able to Early Intervention Grant access such specialist support in their area. [134740]

Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Timpson [holding answer 20 December 2012]: I Education pursuant to the answer of 29 October 2012, refer the hon. Member to the response I made to the Official Report, columns 44-5W, on local government hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello) finance and the oral answer to the hon. Members for on 10 December 2012, Official Report, column 98W. Mid Dorset and North Poole and Feltham and Heston, of 29 October 2012, Official Report, column 5, on early University Technical Colleges intervention, from which funding source will the shortfall in funding for early intervention be provided; and which activities will be funded (a) centrally and Mr Gyimah: To ask the Secretary of State for (b) by local authorities. [128313] Education what criteria his Department uses to decide whether to approve the creation of a university Mr Laws [holding answer 13 November 2012]: The technical college in a particular area. [135761] Early Intervention Grant (EIG) was established in April 2011 to give local authorities the freedom to make Matthew Hancock: In assessing University Technical decisions on how best to target resources on supporting College applications, the Department uses the criteria early intervention and other valuable services to meet published in the ’How to Apply’ guidance. This the needs of their communities. Following the transfer covers the education vision and plan, evidence of of the EIG into the new Business Rates Retention demand for the UTC, the capacity and capability of the system of local government finance, local authorities applicant group, and the financial viability of the UTC. will retain this flexibility to make the most effective and Applicant groups also inform the Department about most efficient use of funding available. their site proposals but these are not part of the assessed criteria. Education Capital Review The guidance for the current competitive application Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for round is available on the Department’s website and can Education when his Department will publish the be found at consultation responses to the Independent Capital http://media.education.gov.uk/assets/files/pdf/h/ Review. [134348] utcs%20%20%20how%20to%20apply%20guidance.pdf 261W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 262W

Young People: Databases It is for local authorities to agree with academies and free schools how data should be provided to ensure that they have accurate information about the participation John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for of young people in their area. Local authorities record Education what steps he is taking to (a) ensure that this on their local client caseload information system academies and free schools co-operate with local database. Information from local databases is then used authorities to support the participation of people aged to update the national system, from which headline 16 and 17 following the raising of the participation age data on participation by local area is made available on and (b) provide the relevant data for the national client the Department’s website. caseload information system. [135759] Young People: Unemployment Mr Laws: The Education Act 2011 places a duty on schools to secure access to independent and impartial Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for careers guidance on the full range of 16-18 education Education how many and what proportion of (a) 16, and training options. The model funding agreements (b) 17 and (c) 18 year-olds are not in full-time used when setting up academies and free schools make education or training in each local education authority them subject to this duty. The Government announced area in England and Wales. [134920] recently that it plans to extend this duty to years 8-13 in schools from September 2013. We trust the head teachers Mr Laws: The following table shows the number and of academies and free schools to focus on the best proportion of 16, 17 and 18-year-olds not in full-time interests of their pupils, including supporting them to education or training in each local authority area in progress into suitable education or training at age 16 England. Information about the education of young and 17. people in Wales can be obtained from the Welsh Assembly Under the 2008 Education and Skills Act, educational Government. institutions (including academies and free schools funded This information has been drawn from records by the Education Funding Agency), are required to maintained by local authorities in England, who have provide relevant information about pupils to local authority responsibility for tracking young people’s participation support services. Educational institutions will also be in education and training. The number of young people required to inform their local authority if a 16 or not in full-time education or training includes some 17-year-old drops out of education or training when the whose current activity is not known to the local authority participation age is raised so that they can be supported as well as those who are known to be in employment or back into learning by the local authority. taking a gap year.

Number and proportion of 16, 17 and 18-year-olds not in full-time education or training, December 2011 Age 16 Age 17 Age 18 Number Percentage Number Percentage Number Percentage

England 47,720 8 98,280 16 216,750 36

South East Bracknell Forest 90 7 240 19 470 39 Brighton and Hove 170 7 400 16 1,220 150 Buckinghamshire 310 5 600 10 1,430 25 East Sussex 480 9 1,060 119 2,810 151 Hampshire 1,240 9 4,470 131 7,510 151 Isle of Wight 120 8 280 18 650 142 Kent 1,290 8 3,040 17 7,020 40 Medway 440 13 700 19 910 24 Milton Keynes 240 8 370 12 1,030 35 Oxfordshire 570 9 1,660 126 3,270 151 Portsmouth 180 9 350 17 970 146 Reading 130 9 310 20 580 40 Slough 130 8 250 15 410 127 Southampton 180 8 450 20 1,180 148 Surrey 580 6 1,330 13 4,850 149 West Berkshire 150 9 300 18 650 38 West Sussex 550 7 1,230 14 2,900 36 Windsor and Maidenhead 140 12 170 13 390 132 Wokingham 110 6 210 12 540 133

London Barking and Dagenham 230 9 450 117 800 131 Barnet 300 9 390 11 1,460 146 Bexley 120 4 470 116 820 128 Brent 180 6 240 7 390 11 Bromley 890 127 1,000 127 1,360 138 263W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 264W

Number and proportion of 16, 17 and 18-year-olds not in full-time education or training, December 2011 Age 16 Age 17 Age 18 Number Percentage Number Percentage Number Percentage

Camden 190 14 280 119 310 124 City of London 260 197 10 6 20 11 Croydon 1,260 131 1,290 130 1,670 140 Ealing 160 5 240 7 560 17 Enfield 270 7 530 13 1,130 129 Greenwich 220 9 370 13 820 127 Hackney 260 12 430 118 530 123 Hammersmith and Fulham 90 9 120 10 180 15 Haringey 660 128 620 125 1,400 153 Harrow 70 3 120 5 340 14 Havering 150 5 480 16 1,090 137 Hillingdon 140 5 280 9 530 18 Hounslow 150 7 230 9 440 17 Islington 240 116 350 120 450 127 Kensington and Chelsea 110 122 170 125 210 131 Kingston 170 112 180 12 410 127 Lambeth 170 8 480 120 760 130 Lewisham 330 113 530 117 1,810 152 Merton 300 117 390 121 580 130 Newham 190 5 560 15 1,300 132 Redbridge 120 4 220 6 580 17 Richmond 310 130 350 130 440 136 Southwark 220 9 630 124 700 131 Sutton 280 113 310 113 730 135 Tower Hamlets 170 7 270 11 670 128 Waltham Forest 340 12 690 122 1,110 135 Wandsworth 200 113 330 120 480 128 Westminster 140 13 270 123 270 125

East of England Bedford Borough 110 6 210 12 430 24 Cambridgeshire 480 7 830 12 2,100 32 Central Bedfordshire 220 8 490 17 870 132 Essex 1,670 10 4,200 125 11,100 166 Hertfordshire 730 6 1,760 13 4,370 34 Luton 140 6 300 12 640 28 Norfolk 920 10 2,110 22 4,260 147 Peterborough 200 9 360 15 820 36 Southend 140 7 240 11 780 136 Suffolk 660 8 1,480 18 3,450 142 Thurrock 130 7 380 20 920 146

South West Bath and NE Somerset 100 6 230 13 600 134 Bournemouth 130 8 260 15 520 30 Bristol 360 9 740 18 1,610 140 Cornwall and IoS 330 6 780 13 1,990 32 Devon 640 8 1,330 16 3,000 37 Dorset 360 8 730 16 1,680 38 Gloucestershire 560 9 1,250 18 2,930 144 North Somerset 110 5 240 11 620 28 Plymouth 220 8 460 15 1,030 34 Poole 150 10 310 19 670 40 Somerset 320 6 530 9 820 14 South Gloucestershire 210 7 410 13 980 131 Swindon 220 8 500 19 1,030 139 Torbay 110 7 200 12 470 30 Wiltshire 510 10 990 19 2,570 152

West Midlands Birmingham 830 7 1,580 12 4,760 135 Coventry 210 6 600 15 1,560 140 265W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 266W

Number and proportion of 16, 17 and 18-year-olds not in full-time education or training, December 2011 Age 16 Age 17 Age 18 Number Percentage Number Percentage Number Percentage

Dudley 250 7 440 11 1,260 134 Herefordshire 170 9 360 18 890 146 Sandwell 250 6 470 12 1,170 130 Shropshire 260 8 510 16 1,050 35 Solihull 140 6 370 14 910 34 Staffordshire 580 6 1,460 15 3,360 135 Stoke-on-Trent 250 9 520 18 1,170 138 Telford and Wrekin 200 10 590 128 1,380 165 Walsall 230 7 560 17 970 128 Warwickshire 380 6 950 15 3,530 158 Wolverhampton 260 9 500 15 980 131 Worcestershire 410 7 850 14 1,860 131

East Midlands Derby City 290 10 600 20 1,310 142 Derbyshire 810 9 1,610 18 3,630 140 Leicester City 280 7 670 16 1,300 132 Leicestershire County 490 6 960 13 2,430 132 Lincolnshire 920 10 1,700 119 6,050 167 Northamptonshire 620 8 1,250 16 2,690 135 Nottingham 250 8 450 13 890 126 Nottinghamshire 580 7 1,270 14 2,430 27 Rutland 60 117 40 12 330 193

Yorks and Humber Barnsley 200 7 360 13 780 127 Bradford 500 8 930 14 1,450 22 Calderdale 210 8 330 13 730 128 Doncaster 300 8 580 15 1,320 34 East Riding Kingston upon Hull 290 9 630 19 1,500 142 Kirklees 400 8 780 15 1,640 131 Leeds 660 9 1,360 17 3,170 138 North East Lincolnshire 130 6 310 13 640 28 North Lincolnshire 110 5 310 14 810 136 North Yorkshire 480 8 890 14 2,340 135 Rotherham 240 7 550 16 1,090 33 Sheffield 460 8 1,030 18 2,210 137 Wakefield 410 10 680 16 1,430 34 York 130 7 240 12 450 24

North West 6,330 8 13,330 16 26,300 130 Blackburn-Darwen 200 10 280 14 540 127 Blackpool 180 10 270 14 560 129 Bolton 270 8 960 126 1,520 142 Bury 180 8 310 13 810 133 Cheshire East 270 7 690 16 1,370 133 Cheshire W and Chester 270 7 580 15 1,170 131 Cumbria 470 8 830 14 1,880 32 Halton 110 7 260 16 610 39 Knowsley 150 7 340 16 720 35 Lancashire 1,120 8 2,340 16 4,450 131 Liverpool 430 8 910 17 1,930 35 Manchester 380 8 740 14 1,040 19 Oldham 240 8 540 18 810 26 Rochdale 190 8 360 12 490 18 Salford 250 10 370 14 590 22 Sefton 180 6 400 13 1,010 30 St. Helens 120 6 250 13 630 31 Stockport 270 8 560 16 1,050 132 Tameside 230 8 400 14 660 22 Trafford 150 6 320 12 760 128 267W Written Answers8 JANUARY 2013 Written Answers 268W

Number and proportion of 16, 17 and 18-year-olds not in full-time education or training, December 2011 Age 16 Age 17 Age 18 Number Percentage Number Percentage Number Percentage

Warrington 120 5 280 11 670 27 Wigan 270 7 680 17 1,860 147 Wirral 300 8 670 16 1,200 29

North East County Durham 520 9 1,570 126 2,990 147 Darlington 130 11 240 19 500 38 Gateshead 170 8 390 18 780 135 Hartlepool 80 6 160 12 390 31 Middlesbrough 160 9 350 19 810 142 Newcastle 320 11 610 20 1,130 135 North Tyneside 140 6 220 10 590 124 Northumberland 230 6 560 15 1,100 29 Redcar and Cleveland 170 10 390 21 780 143 South Tyneside 110 6 310 17 710 135 Stockton on Tees 190 8 410 17 860 34 Sunderland 230 7 460 13 970 27 1 Areas where the current activity of more than 10 of 16, 17 or 18-year-olds is not known. The proportion not in full-time education or training may be understated in these areas. Notes: 1. The ages stated in the table are young people’s academic age; ie their age on 1 September. 2. East Riding has not provided the Department with information on the activity of 16, 17 and 18-year-olds.

1MC Ministerial Corrections8 JANUARY 2013 Ministerial Corrections 2MC Ministerial Corrections Letter of correction from Dr Murrison: An error has been identified in the written answer given to the right hon. Member for East Renfrewshire Tuesday 8 January 2013 (Mr Murphy) on 21 November 2012. The full answer given was as follows:

DEFENCE Dr Murrison [holding answer 19 November 2012]: The Ministry of Defence does not hold this information Afghanistan centrally in the form requested, and in the interests of anonymity we do not release information of individual Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for tours. Defence how many people have served on tours of duty The MOD is able to confirm that at present around of longer than six months in Afghanistan; and what 110 posts out of 9,500 in Afghanistan are subject to the (a) tour dates, (b) rank, (c) regiment and (d) tour lengths of longer than six months to provide reasons for the length of tour was. [128512] continuity to the campaign. These posts are broken [Official Report, 21 November 2012, Vol. 553, c. 491-92W.] down as shown in the following table:

Army ranks (or equivalent) represented Length of continuity posting (months) Number of personnel (to the nearest 10)

Staff Sergeant 810 Warrant Officer Class 2 Warrant Officer Class 1 Captain Major Lieutenant Colonel

Captain 920 Major Lieutenant Colonel

Staff Sergeant Major 12 50 Lieutenant Colonel Colonel Brigadier Major General Lieutenant General

Major 18 <10

Private 24 20 Lance Corporal Corporal Sergeant Major Lieutenant Colonel Colonel Major General

The correct answer should have been: The MOD is able to confirm that at present around 110 posts out of 9,500 in Afghanistan are subject to Dr Murrison [holding answer 19 November 2012]: tour lengths of longer than six months to provide The Ministry of Defence does not hold this information continuity to the campaign. These posts are broken centrally in the form requested, and in the interests of down as shown in the following table: anonymity we do not release information of individual tours.

Army ranks (or equivalent) represented Length of continuity posting (months) Number of personnel (to the nearest 10)

Staff Sergeant 810 3MC Ministerial Corrections8 JANUARY 2013 Ministerial Corrections 4MC

Army ranks (or equivalent) represented Length of continuity posting (months) Number of personnel (to the nearest 10)

Warrant Officer Class 2 Warrant Officer Class 1 Captain Major Lieutenant Colonel

Captain 920 Major Lieutenant Colonel

Staff Sergeant Major 12 50 Lieutenant Colonel Colonel Brigadier Major General Lieutenant General

— 18 0

Staff Sergeant 24 <10 Colonel

CABINET OFFICE want to exaggerate, but the point was that the trust of the United States had been weakened and that trust Justice and Security Bill (Lords) needed to be restored. Letter of correction from Kenneth Clarke: The following is an extract from the answer given by the Minister without Portfolio, the right hon. and learned An error has been identified in the answer given to Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), to a question from the right hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Grant the right hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Grant Shapps). Shapps) during the Second Reading Debate on the Justice The correct answer should have been: and Security Bill on 18 December 2012. Mr Clarke: … Lord Butler of Brockwell, a member of [Official Report, 18 December 2012, Vol. 555, c. 726-7.] the Intelligence and Security Committee, told the House of Lords that the flow of intelligence from the United Mr Clarke: … Sir Daniel Bethlehem, a former legal States was being limited. He said that he did not want to adviser to the Foreign Office, told the Joint Committee exaggerate, but the point was that the trust of the on Human Rights that the flow of intelligence from the United States had been weakened and that trust needed United States was being limited. He said that he did not to be restored. ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 8 January 2013

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 152 DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 139 Child Abuse Victims ...... 154 Commission on Devolution in Wales ...... 142 Human Trafficking ...... 156 Electoral Register...... 141 Law of Contempt...... 157 Local and Central Government Powers...... 144 Serious Fraud Office ...... 158 Member Recalls ...... 139 Serious Fraud Office (Senior Staff) ...... 152 Parliamentary Constituency Boundaries...... 140 Tax Evasion ...... 154 Topical Questions ...... 145 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Tuesday 8 January 2013

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 13WS JUSTICE...... 14WS Competition and Markets Authority...... 13WS Victims Commissioner ...... 14WS Youth Justice Board Triennial Review...... 15WS HEALTH...... 13WS South London Healthcare Trust ...... 13WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 8 January 2013

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 184W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT—continued Serious Fraud Office ...... 184W Broadband Delivery UK...... 211W Broadband: Hartlepool...... 211W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 185W Broadband: Rural Areas ...... 212W Arms Trade: Israel ...... 185W Digital Broadcasting ...... 212W Business: Advisory Services ...... 185W Internet ...... 213W Business: Government Assistance ...... 186W Internet: Business...... 213W Export Credit Guarantees: Grenada ...... 187W Procurement...... 213W Export Credit Guarantees: Iraq ...... 188W Export Credit Guarantees: Kenya...... 187W DEFENCE...... 258W Export Credit Guarantees: Zimbabwe ...... 189W Written Questions ...... 258W Green Investment Bank ...... 189W Manufacturing Industries: West Midlands...... 189W Met Office...... 190W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 214W Natural Gas: Exploration ...... 190W All-postal Primaries ...... 214W Redundancy...... 190W Central Government: Devolution...... 215W City Deals ...... 214W CABINET OFFICE...... 192W Elected Office: Access ...... 214W Charitable Donations...... 192W Electoral Register...... 214W Civil Servants: Recruitment ...... 193W Peers ...... 214W Electronic Government ...... 193W Social Mobility Strategy...... 215W Flexible Working...... 193W Redundancy...... 194W EDUCATION...... 259W Early Intervention Grant ...... 259W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 246W Education Capital Review...... 259W Advantage West Midlands: Assets ...... 246W Schools: Inspections...... 260W Affordable Housing: Suffolk ...... 247W Special Educational Needs...... 260W Environmental Impact Assessment ...... 247W University Technical Colleges ...... 260W Equality ...... 247W Young People: Databases ...... 261W Fire Services...... 248W Young People: Unemployment...... 262W Fracking...... 248W Local Government Finance ...... 248W Members: Correspondence ...... 249W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 192W Social Rented Housing...... 249W EU Law...... 192W Wind Power: Planning Permission ...... 249W Redundancy...... 192W

CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 209W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Aerials: Haslingden...... 209W AFFAIRS...... 206W BBC: Accountancy ...... 210W Dogs: Litter...... 206W Broadband ...... 210W Livestock: Transport ...... 206W Col. No. Col. No. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE .... 183W JUSTICE...... 240W Temporary Employment...... 183W Chief Coroner...... 240W World War II: Military Decorations...... 183W Civil Justice Council...... 240W Courts: Lancashire...... 241W HEALTH...... 250W Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008...... 241W Arthritis ...... 250W Dangerous Dogs ...... 242W Carers ...... 250W Employment Tribunals Service...... 242W Childbirth ...... 251W Family Proceedings ...... 242W Conditions of Employment...... 252W Human Trafficking ...... 243W Drugs: Prisons ...... 252W Judicial Review ...... 244W Health: Screening...... 253W Landlords: Prosecutions...... 244W Hospitals: Food ...... 254W Prisoners: Foreign Nationals...... 245W Human Papilloma Virus: Vaccination ...... 254W Victims’ Commissioner ...... 245W Influenza: Vaccination ...... 255W Victims’ Commissioner and Chief Coroner ...... 245W Meningitis...... 255W Written Questions ...... 246W Mental Health Services ...... 256W Youth Justice...... 246W Mental Health Services: Training...... 256W Norovirus...... 257W LEADER OF THE HOUSE ...... 184W Respiratory System ...... 257W Olympic Games 2012 ...... 184W Social Services...... 257W TRANSPORT ...... 184W Staff ...... 258W Broadband ...... 184W

HOME DEPARTMENT...... 216W TREASURY ...... 191W Arrests: Greater London...... 216W Broadband ...... 191W Arrests: Young People...... 216W Gift Aid ...... 191W Bramshill Police College...... 225W Public Expenditure...... 191W Carbon Monoxide: Poisoning ...... 225W Taxation: Preston...... 192W Closed Circuit Television ...... 226W Communications Data Bill (Draft)...... 227W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 183W Crimes of Violence: Arrests ...... 227W Equal Pay: Local Government ...... 183W Crimes of Violence: Females...... 227W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 194W Databases: Telecommunications ...... 227W Back Pain...... 194W Deportation: Sri Lanka...... 229W Conditions of Employment...... 195W Employment Agencies...... 230W Council Tax Benefits...... 195W Entry Clearances...... 230W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 196W Entry Clearances: India ...... 230W Farms: Safety...... 197W Entry Clearances: Overseas Students ...... 231W Housing Benefit ...... 197W Entry Clearances: Pakistan ...... 232W Immigration...... 198W Immigration...... 232W Industrial Health and Safety...... 198W Immigration Controls ...... 233W Internet ...... 198W Licensing Laws...... 234W Jobcentre Plus ...... 198W Passports...... 234W Long Term Unemployed People: Mental Health.... 199W Police ...... 234W Olympic Games 2012 ...... 200W Police: Finance...... 236W Remploy...... 200W Procurement...... 236W Sick Leave ...... 200W Redundancy...... 236W State Retirement Pensions...... 200W Redundancy Pay ...... 237W Temporary Employment ...... 201W Temporary Employment ...... 237W Unemployment ...... 201W UK Border Agency ...... 238W Universal Credit...... 201W Young Offenders ...... 240W Vacancies ...... 202W Work Programme...... 203W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 192W Work Programme: East of England ...... 205W Olympic Games 2012 ...... 192W Work Programme: Wales...... 206W MINISTERIAL CORRECTIONS

Tuesday 8 January 2013

Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE...... 3MC DEFENCE...... 1MC Justice and Security Bill (Lords)...... 3MC Afghanistan ...... 1MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Tuesday 15 January 2013

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CONTENTS

Tuesday 8 January 2013

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 139] [see index inside back page] Deputy Prime Minister Attorney-General

Ibrahim Magag [Col. 161] Answer to urgent question—(Mrs May)

South London Healthcare NHS Trust [Col. 169] Answer to urgent question—(Mr Jeremy Hunt)

EU Fisheries Negotiations [Col. 175] Statement—(Richard Benyon)

Regulation of Bailiffs [Col. 185] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Mr Jim Cunningham)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill [Col. 188] Motion for Second Reading—(Mr Duncan Smith) Amendment—(Liam Byrne)—on a Division, negatived Motion, on a Division, agreed to Read a Second time Programme motion—(Karen Bradley)—on a Division, agreed to

Newcastle upon Tyne City Council [Col. 285] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Sri Lanka [Col. 1WH] Female Genital Mutilation [Col. 27WH] Liverpool Care Pathway [Col. 35WH] Education Funding (Cambridgeshire) [Col. 59WH] Charities (Donations) [Col. 68WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 13WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 183W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Corrections [Col. 1MC]