Wednesday Volume 589 17 December 2014 No. 82

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 17 December 2014

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2014 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 1385 17 DECEMBER 2014 1386

Justine Greening: The right hon. Gentleman is right House of Commons to say that we need to learn some lessons from how the WHO and the international community has responded Wednesday 17 December 2014 to the crisis. Speed was of the essence, so I think there are lots of lessons to be learned. I had a chance to meet some of the amazing UK personnel working on our The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock behalf, including some fantastic NHS health workers who are out there providing front-line care. PRAYERS Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): May I commend the Government for what they have done so far? How much [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] of the money spent was directed towards projects to do with health awareness as opposed to dealing with the after-effects of Ebola?

Oral Answers to Questions Justine Greening: We have a several million pound programme that is focused particularly on so-called social mobilisation. It is about training community workers to go out into communities and talk to people INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT about how they can take practical steps themselves to reduce the risk of catching Ebola. Of course, the work The Secretary of State was asked— we are doing in putting in place safe burial teams, which are now burying 100% of bodies safely in the main Ebola western area zone and 95% across the country, is one of the key ways in which we can stop the infection from 1. Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): What spreading further. recent progress her Department has made on tackling Ebola in west Africa. [906668] Mrs Caroline Spelman (Meriden) (Con): The Secretary of State mentioned the toll on children in Africa—the The Secretary of State for International Development number of Ebola orphans adding to the huge number (Justine Greening): The United Kingdom is leading the of AIDS orphans. Will she join me in encouraging international response to the Ebola crisis in Sierra people at Christmas time to make a donation through Leone, from where I have just returned. We have already British charities that work especially among the children committed £230 million and delivered over 880 treatment of Africa? and isolation beds. We have opened three laboratories, and we have doubled the number of burial teams. Justine Greening: I certainly would. Two journalists from the Sunday Mirror accompanied me on my visit, Ms Ritchie: I thank the Secretary of State for her and they are running an important campaign with answer. The World Health Organisation believes that Street Child, which is seeking to raise money to do since February 2014 there have been nearly 18,000 precisely what my right hon. Friend suggests. We work recorded Ebola cases and 6,000 deaths. According to with that charity, too, and we will continue to do more. Dr Frieden, the director of the US Centres for Disease Control and Prevention, speed of response is the key to Tax Havens (Multinationals) ending epidemics affecting Guinea, Liberia and Sierra Leone. In the light of her visit, will the Secretary of State indicate what further actions can be taken, 2. Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) notwithstanding what has already been done? (Lab): What estimate she has made of the loss of tax receipts to developing countries by the use of tax Justine Greening: Yes, of course. We will continue to havens by multinational companies operating in those deliver the promises we have made such as getting countries in the last three years. [906669] hospitals open and delivering extra beds. A key announcement I made during my visit over the past few 4. Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): What estimate days was to provide more protection for the many she has made of the loss of tax receipts to developing children affected by the crisis. Many of them are orphaned countries by the use of tax havens by multinational or themselves suffering from Ebola and needing to companies operating in those countries in the last three recover. There will be lots more support for them. I can years. [906671] assure the hon. Lady that as we are able to scale up the operation, we will reach more and more patients. 6. Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): What estimate she has made of the loss of tax receipts to Sir Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): I would like to developing countries by the use of tax havens by thank, through the Secretary of State, the British personnel multinational companies operating in those countries who are engaged in tackling the outbreak. Following up in the last three years. [906673] the question on the WHO, does she acknowledge that it did not respond quickly enough and that its mechanisms The Secretary of State for International Development are not really fit for purpose? Will she press for a review (Justine Greening): Tax avoidance is a significant challenge of the workings of the WHO so that it can be more for developing countries, which is why the UK has led efficient in future? international action at Lough Erne and, more recently, 1387 Oral Answers17 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 1388 in the G20 to help tackle the problem through capacity- ensure that we can take action if money laundering and building projects and through the implementation of the corrupt obtaining of assets are associated with international initiatives. United Kingdom institutions.

Debbie Abrahams: The EU is currently negotiating Several hon. Members rose— the anti-money laundering directive. What is the Secretary of State doing to ensure that this includes public registers Mr Speaker: Order. Members must stand if they wish and that the UK does not become part of a two-tier to ask a question. They must not simply gesticulate. I system of corporate transparency? call Mr Barclay.

Justine Greening: As the hon. Lady will be aware, one Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con): of the key objectives of the G8 presidency, which we May I return the Secretary of State to the issue raised had last year, was about tax transparency. I am really by the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith)? proud that our Government have led the way in tackling As she will know, the Government of the 14 overseas issues such as base erosion and profit shifting. Rules territories were in London last week, and published that have been in place since the 1920s need to be action plans last year. The British Virgin Islands and updated for today’s modern corporate world. We are the Cayman Islands, for instance, have delayed any making big steps on that and big steps on transparency action in relation to their own action plans for more and beneficial ownership, and we will continue to play than 300 days. When will we see any implementation of our role, leading the international effort to improve the the commitments that they have made? rules so that we can get the tax due in the countries where the work has taken place. Justine Greening: As my hon. Friend has said, for the first time overseas territories have signed up to action plans, and the next step is to ensure that they implement Nick Smith: May I press the Secretary of State on them. In fact, a number of countries need to stand by this? Does she not accept that the overseas territories the promises that they made and deliver on them. and Crown dependencies must go beyond a promise to However, we are delivering on our own promises. implement the G20 principles, and actually introduce public registers of beneficial ownership? Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): I am sorry, but the Secretary of State can do better than that. We Justine Greening: The hon. Gentleman is talking know that tax revenues amounting to three times the about G20 progress that was instigated by this Government entire global aid budget are lost to developing countries when we held the G8 presidency. I am tempted to make every year, and that nearly a third of the estimated the point that the Labour Government had 13 years in $32 trillion of private financial wealth that is held in tax which to take steps in this direction, and entirely failed havens comes from those countries. A year ago, the to do so. We took some important steps during our G8 Prime Minister said that there would be a public register presidency, and, as he will know, that involved the of beneficial ownership. That must include the overseas overseas territories. We are not saying that we have gone territories and Crown dependencies. By dithering and all the way down the path, but we are starting to move delaying, whose interests is the Secretary of State protecting? down it for the first time, and I think that the hon. Gentleman should welcome that. I assure him that we Justine Greening: There was dither and delay for will continue to work to ensure that we bring the rest of 13 years under the last Government. I do not think we the international community with us. need take any lectures from them, either on the closing of our domestic tax gap—which grew under Labour—or, Andy Sawford: According to analysis by the ONE indeed, on the closing of the international gap. The campaign, $1 trillion is siphoned from developing countries hon. Gentleman would do better to welcome all the each year as a result of corruption, money laundering work that this Government have instigated, not least and illicit financial flows. What analysis have the United the setting up of the HMRC unit which I mentioned, Kingdom Government conducted of the role of UK which is enabling our officials to give invaluable help companies in that activity? and advice to tax institutions around the world.

Justine Greening: As the hon. Gentleman will know, Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon) (Con): As I there are various estimates of how much this kind of get older, my memory becomes more and more feeble. activity costs developing countries, which is one of the I cannot remember any substantial action being taken reasons why we put it on our G8 agenda. I mentioned on this issue in the 13 years before 2010. Can the the work that is being done to reform international Secretary of State help me with my memory? rules. My Department is also engaged in significant work to build capacity in developing countries, so that Justine Greening: Unfortunately, there is nothing when the progress that we are starting to see becomes to remember, because so little progress was made. We international, they will be in a position to take advantage welcome questions from Labour Members, because they of it. The HMRC capacity building unit, which I helped give us a chance to point out that we are not only to set up along with colleagues in HMRC, will work increasing the amount of funding for developing countries, directly with tax revenue authorities such as the one in reaching the 0.7% target, but working with those countries Pakistan to help them to improve their tax collection. to support their so-called domestic resource mobilisation. As for corruption, DFID will continue to increase its We will do more of that work over the coming months efforts, through the Met police unit that it funds, to and years. 1389 Oral Answers17 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 1390

Gaza Richard Fuller: I thank the Minister for that reply. The active targeting of schools by Boko Haram, and also in Peshawar this week, shows that there is no limit 3. Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): to the barbarism and depravity of such extremists. In What recent assessment she has made of the tackling such extremists it is important that the security humanitarian situation in Gaza. [906670] forces maintain civilised standards. Is my right hon. Friend aware of the investigations by Amnesty International The Minister of State, Department for International and can he assure the House that no DFID projects Development (Mr Desmond Swayne): Given that inadvertently or indirectly harm people by lowering the unemployment is at over 40%, nearly 60% of people standards of the security forces? have no secure access to food and three quarters have no access to safe water, 19,000 people still reside in Mr Swayne: We take that report very seriously indeed. United Nations Relief and Works Agency shelters, and Human rights abuses exacerbate insurgencies. I can give 100,000 have been rendered homeless, the situation is my hon. Friend that assurance that we do not fund or dire. support in any way the security forces that are responsible for those actions. Indeed, our programme of Justice for Richard Burden: Am I right in thinking that in October All—J4A—ensures that all Nigerians can have access to the Minister at the donor conference said that a return better justice and human rights. to the status quo in Gaza was not an option? According to the latest Oxfam report, however, the number of Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) truck-loads going in with essential materials to do the (Lab): The Nigerian military have made considerable rebuilding he talks about is now less after the summer’s territorial gains in recent weeks. How can we build on conflict than before. Is Israel in breach of UN resolution that situation to ensure that there are free and proper 1860 on Gaza access, and if so what will the Government elections next year? do about it? Mr Swayne: We have a deepening democracy fund through which we are providing support for those elections Mr Swayne: The Gaza reconstruction mechanism, in next year. With respect to the advance of Government which we have invested heavily, had a faltering start and forces, we are providing intelligence and direct tactical only 46 truck-loads were delivered in October. We are training to the Nigerian army. The elections themselves now up to 302 as of the beginning of this month. It is must be a matter for the Nigerians, but we are providing not good enough, and we are working for more, but it the funding and the technical support. is the only game in town. Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): We heard recently in Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): The situation the all-party group on malaria and neglected tropical in Gaza is of course made more dire by the actions of diseases, which I chair, of a very important DFID Hamas, which misappropriates hundreds of thousands programme to counter severe malaria in northern Nigeria. of tonnes of concrete and uses it to construct 32 terror Can my right hon. Friend assure me that this programme and murder tunnels. Can the Minister tell me what will be continued and that efforts by Boko Haram to he is doing to ensure that Hamas does not similarly stop such development work will not be countenanced? misappropriate aid that should be going towards ordinary Gazans? Mr Swayne: We are increasing our spend in northern Nigeria. Indeed, 60% of our spend in Nigeria is in the Mr Swayne: We contributed £500,000 to the north-eastern areas, so I can give my hon. Friend that implementation of the mechanism, and the Australians assurance. have paid for the software, in order to ensure, by agreement Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): What happened to with the Israeli Government, the Palestinian Authority the 700 women and children who were abducted some and the UN, that no building materials would be months ago? There was a big fuss about that in the misappropriated. Chamber. What has happened to them and what is your Department doing about it? Boko Haram Mr Speaker: My department is doing nothing about 5. Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): What projects her the matter, but I think the Minister’s is. Department is supporting in Nigeria to counter the effects of Boko Haram. [906672] Mr Swayne: Of the girls who were abducted in Chibok, 219 remain missing. Since then another 300 have been abducted elsewhere. We are providing a joint intelligence The Minister of State, Department for International cell, together with our allies in France, the United States Development (Mr Desmond Swayne): My recollection is and Nigeria, based in Abuja, and all the technical that we take this matter very seriously indeed with assistance that we can give. respect to—sorry, I have misappropriated the question. [Interruption.] I apologise, Mr Speaker Armed Conflict (Children) Boko Haram can only be defeated by action by the Nigerian Government on a security front and on a 7. Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): What steps development front and by provision of leadership. We she is taking to support the UN goal to end the use and in DFID have doubled our programme of investment in recruitment of children in armed conflict by the end the north-east of Nigeria and are working to that end. of 2016. [906676] 1391 Oral Answers17 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 1392

The Secretary of State for International Development Mr Swayne: We have provided some 29 million women (Justine Greening): This Government support the work with access to financial services, and we are supporting of several UN bodies, including the special representative the provision of some £26 billion in commercial loans of the UN Secretary-General for children and armed to some 50,000 businesses led by women. Last year at conflict, and DFID seeks directly to reduce the impact the conference we announced that we would provide of conflict on children through our humanitarian efforts support for mentoring for 100 women across north and work to build stable and peaceful societies. Africa.

Fiona O’Donnell: I welcome the Secretary of State’s Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ answer. She could go further, though, if her Government Co-op): It is important that businesses big and small would commit to the Lucens draft guidelines on the across the world pay their workers a decent wage, yet military use of schools, amend our military codes of Conservative MEPs in the European Parliament voted conduct accordingly, call on other nations to do the against the global development programme because it same, and issue a clear and unambiguous prohibition included a minimum wage. Is that the policy of the against attacks on and military use of schools. Will she Government as well? commit to that today? Mr Swayne: Government policy is that all businesses, Justine Greening: The hon. Lady raises an important particularly small businesses, should pay a living wage, point. We take the entire issue extremely seriously. That but first they have to generate wealth and entrepreneurs is why we provide funding for the Office of the Special have to begin to provide for businesses before they can Representative of the Secretary-General. I am happy to pay any wages at all. take the points that she has made, which I think reside within the Foreign Office in terms of policy, and get Topical Questions them followed up, and I am happy to meet her on the broader topic because we recognise how importance it T1. [906698] Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) is. As she has heard from my answers to other questions, (Lab): If she will make a statement on her the Department does a huge amount of work supporting departmental responsibilities. children. The Secretary of State for International Development Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab): It is the most (Justine Greening): This morning I returned from Sierra marginalised children, such as those living in conflict- Leone, where I saw the latest British treatment centre to affected areas, who are most at risk of being out of open, in Port Loko. As I have said, I announced new school. Can the Secretary of State tell the House more protection and support for children affected by the about the steps that her Department is taking as part of Ebola crisis, working with UNICEF.We are now providing the post-2015 negotiations to push for Governments to 882 Ebola treatment and safe isolation beds across ensure that the most marginalised children benefit from Sierra Leone, and I am incredibly proud of the work the same educational opportunities as their peers? that our health workers, troops, soldiers and humanitarian staff are doing and will continue to do through the Justine Greening: The hon. Gentleman is right. Whether Christmas period. Alongside that, on 4 December the in terms of children’s prospects of reaching their full UK and Afghanistan co-hosted the London conference potential or the issues of security and stability that on Afghanistan. investment in education long-term can address, that is a key part of the post-2015 process. I can assure him that we raise these issues strongly in our work to try to make Mr Allen: The Secretary of State will be aware that sure that that framework can deliver for everyone on the refugee crisis in Syria, involving 10 million refugees, our planet and will leave no one behind. is probably the worst in our lifetime, yet this Government’s programme has taken in only 90 refugees in the past year. Will the Secretary of State look again at engaging Small Businesses (Developing Countries) with the United Nations programme and getting more of those people out? 8. Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): What steps her Department is taking to reduce aid dependency by Justine Greening: I have spoken directly with the promoting small business start-ups in developing United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees lead, countries; and if she will make a statement. [906677] Antonio Guterres, about this. We also have discussions with our Home Office colleagues on the progress of that The Minister of State, Department for International scheme. Our aim has been to help people to do what Development (Mr Desmond Swayne): We are providing they want to do, which is to get support where they are, support for small and medium-sized enterprises and outside Syria, but also to have the prospect of returning micro-businesses across our areas of responsibility, because home, which is what the overwhelming majority want they contribute so much to both employment and economic to do. development. T2. [906699] Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): Michael Fabricant: My right hon. Friend will know Will the Secretary of State tell us what her Department that it is hard enough, with some notable exceptions, has done to address the serious and well-documented to get women involved in entrepreneurial activities in allegations of bribery and violence committed by this country. What is he doing to encourage women SOCO International in the Virunga national park in entrepreneurs in developing countries? the Democratic Republic of the Congo? 1393 Oral Answers17 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 1394

Justine Greening: We are aware of those serious that we work directly with the Pakistan tax revenue allegations. I expect SOCO, as a British-listed company, authority to ensure that tax that is due can be collected. to adhere to the highest standards. In June this year, That is a key way in which we can tackle corruption. SOCO and the WWF announced that it would complete their existing programme of work at Virunga and then T6. [906704] Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab): not undertake or commission exploratory or other drilling Yesterday’s shocking events in Pakistan illustrate that within the national park unless UNESCO and the children are not safe from violence even when they are Government of the DRC agreed to it. [Interruption.] in school. UNICEF UK has highlighted the fact that a child dies from violence somewhere in the world every Mr Speaker: Order. There is far too much noise in the five minutes. Will the Secretary of State seek to secure a Chamber. It is quite difficult to hear the Secretary of global target to end violence against children in the new State’s replies. We want to hear them and the questions. set of sustainable development goals, so that children around the world will no longer fear horrendous acts of Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab): The Prime Minister violence such as the one we saw yesterday? co-chaired the United Nations High Level Panel on sustainable development goals, yet last month Tory Justine Greening: I should also say that I send my MEPs joined forces with UKIP to vote against the deepest sympathies to the victims and their families sustainable development goals to tackle climate change, who have been affected by this terrible tragedy in Pakistan. tax avoidance and inequality. Will the Secretary of State It is unthinkable that so many children could have been join me in condemning them for doing that? caught up, deliberately, in a terrorist act of this nature. I assure the hon. Gentleman that the work the Government Justine Greening: The hon. Lady is right to point out are doing is very much aimed at enhancing the protection that our country and our Prime Minister have played a of children. Only yesterday, I announced support for leading role in helping to shape the debate and to create orphans and children affected by the Ebola crisis, but it a successful post-2015 framework that will include a is part of a much bigger policy agenda and investment sustainability theme as well as tackling the things that that we undertake to make sure we support children. undermine development, such as problems with the rule of law and corruption. T4. [906701] Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): What steps is the Department taking to reduce the number of refugees attempting to flee their home countries? Mary Creagh: I notice that the Secretary of State failed to condemn her Tory colleagues in the European Justine Greening: We rightly use development assistance Parliament for that vote. The typhoon that hit the to build up the institutions and the conditions that Philippines nine days ago reminds us of the threat that minimise the types of conflict, instability and state climate change poses to the world’s poorest people. She failure that lead people to becoming refugees and internally is spending £2.4 billion of British taxpayers’ money on displaced in the first place. helping vulnerable people to adapt to climate change, yet neither she nor any Minister from her Department attended the Lima climate change conference last weekend. Why on earth not? PRIME MINISTER Justine Greening: The hon. Lady will be aware that the Government were represented by the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change. I should also like The Prime Minister was asked— to update the House. Since Typhoon Haiyan hit the Engagements Philippines last year, we have done a huge amount of work with the Government there, and that is one of the Q1. [906683] Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and reasons that they were better prepared to cope with the Devonport) (Con): If he will list his official storm that came in recently. I am proud of the work engagements for Wednesday 17 December. that our DFID staff have done. [Interruption.] The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): I am sure Mr Speaker: Order. We need some respectful quiet the whole House will join me in condemning the outrages for a military man. I call Mr Robathan. that have shocked the world in recent days. The siege of the café in Sydney ended in tragedy but was accompanied T3. [906700] Mr Andrew Robathan (South Leicestershire) by heroism so typical of that great nation, and we all (Con): Following the appalling atrocity in Peshawar grieve with the Australians today. What happened several yesterday, will my right hon. Friend pledge that any aid thousand miles away in a school in Pakistan is utterly that we give to Pakistan will be directed towards heartbreaking: a massacre of the innocents that has left improving governance, ending corruption and fighting the world numb. The world stands, head bowed, with the root causes of radicalisation in madrassahs and Pakistan today. Words can comfort but words cannot elsewhere? defeat the men of violence, so let this be the moment when the whole of Pakistan and when every nation Justine Greening: I can tell my right hon. Friend that come together and says, “Enough. We will act together our programme is very much focused on enhancing the to defeat this evil in our midst.” stability of Pakistan, and that one of our largest efforts I am sure the whole House will want to join me in relates to education, which in the long term provides sending our warmest Christmas wishes to all our armed one the best assurances of stability. He will be aware forces deployed across the world, in particular, to those 1395 Oral Answers17 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 1396 in the middle east, Afghanistan and west Africa. We are OBR he might want to read the complete quote. Let me for ever indebted for the sacrifices they make on our do that for the benefit of the House. It says about our behalf. spending plans that the closest equivalent of the national accounts implies that by 2019-20 day-to-day spending Oliver Colvile: May I associate myself with my right on public services hon. Friend’s comments on the evil atrocities that took “would be at its lowest level since 2002-3 in real terms.” place in Pakistan and in Australia, and with the best wishes to our armed forces, who may be serving abroad? Now, 2002-03, in my memory, was after five years of a Labour Government, when the right hon. Gentleman Today’s unemployment figures showed that in the last was an adviser in the Treasury. Presumably he is now quarter the south-west was the region with the largest going to tell us that it was a time of appalling poverty increase in employment in the United Kingdom. To and deprivation, but I do not seem to remember that continue to realise its full economic potential and to that was the message at the time. deliver the city deal, does my right hon. Friend agree that Plymouth needs a faster, better and more resilient railway line, as laid out in the south-west rail taskforce’s Edward Miliband: The right hon. Gentleman has three-point plan, which was the discussion last week spent four years saying that we spent too much; now he with my hon. Friend the Member for South West Devon is saying that we spent too little. The OBR says—and (Mr Streeter)? this is the full quote— that it takes total public spending “to its lowest share of national income” The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend has campaigned in 80 years. Is he really saying that it is wrong about the over and over again for the important improvements in proportion of national income? these rail links, and he knows what is being done to help the south-west in that regard. I received a presentation from the taskforce, and we are going to take forward The Prime Minister: The percentage of national income each of the three points in its plan in the work we do in will be roughly the same as it was in 1999 after two future, to make sure that there is real resilience and years of Labour government. The fact is, after seven there are better services for people in the south-west. years of economic growth we should have a surplus; we On the issue of unemployment, the figures in the west should fix the roof when the sun is shining. Is the country are welcome. In his constituency the claimant Labour leader really saying that he does not think that count has now fallen by 42% since the election. What we should run a surplus ever? these figures show nationally is employment up; unemployment down; and the claimant count falling Edward Miliband: If the right hon. Gentleman is just for the 25th consecutive month. What is an important a little bit patient, in four months’ time he will get to ask moment for our country is that unemployment is now the questions and I will get to answer them. He knows below 2 million and wages are rising faster than inflation— what has happened—the mask slipped in the autumn something I am sure will be welcomed across the House. statement. He has been revealed for who he really is. Let us talk about the scale of the cuts to get to the 1930s Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): I want to vision: they are over £50 billion—more than the entire join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to those murdered amount that we spend on schools, half of what we in the appalling massacre in Pakistan. Even as we have spend on the NHS, and significantly more than in this become accustomed to tragic events, this slaughter of Parliament. Is he really pretending that cuts on this innocent children in their classrooms has shocked the scale will not do massive damage to front-line services? world. We stand in solidarity with the grieving families and the people of Pakistan, and in the fight against The Prime Minister: Of course we have to make terrorism. I also join the Prime Minister in condemning difficult decisions. We have done so every day since the sickening terrorist attack in Sydney, and our condolences taking over from the shambles that we inherited. Everyone go to the families of those who died and to the Australian can now see that the right hon. Gentleman’s pretence, people. I also, like, the Prime Minister, pay tribute this which lasted for about one week, of caring about the Christmas to all our troops serving around the world; deficit is over. This is what the Institute for Fiscal they do our country proud and they show the utmost Studies says about his policy, “Under a Labour courage and bravery. Government…there would be much more borrowing, The independent Office for Budget Responsibility, and therefore” more “government debt”. Labour has established by the Chancellor to give independent expert not learned a single thing from the last four years: more advice, claims that his plans take borrowing, more debt, more taxes—all the things that “total public spending to its lowest share of”— got us into this mess in the first place. national income— “in 80 years.” Edward Miliband: The right hon. Gentleman is borrowing Why does he believe the OBR has joined the BBC in a £207 billion more than he planned, and he has broken conspiracy against the Conservative party? his promise. The difference is that we will cut the deficit every year—he wants to go back to the 1930s. If that was not bad enough, he has £7 billion of unfunded tax The Prime Minister: First, I welcome what the Leader cuts on top. Before the last election, he said that of the Opposition said about the atrocities that have taken place. Can I also welcome his welcome for the “you can’t talk about tax reduction unless you can show how it is Office of Budget Responsibility? We still remember the paid for, the public aren’t stupid”. days of the fiddled forecasts, the fake figures and all What is it going to be: further cuts in public services or that we had to put up with. If he is going to quote the a rise in VAT? 1397 Oral Answers17 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 1398

The Prime Minister: What this Government have talk about immigration, because they have been told shown is that if you get on top of the national finances not to. They cannot talk about their leader, because he and if you grow the economy you can cut taxes for is a complete waste of space. No wonder for Labour 26 million people. It is interesting that, on this of all MPs this year it is a silent night. days, not a word from the right hon. Gentleman about the fall in unemployment. That is the truth. Remember Q2. [906684] Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): the predictions: the Opposition told us that there would Thank you, Mr Speaker. [Interruption.] be no growth, then there was growth. They told us that there would be no jobs, then there were jobs. They told Mr Speaker: Order. The voice of South Dorset must us that the jobs would not have pay ahead of inflation; be heard. now the jobs have pay ahead of inflation. They told us the deficit would go up; the deficit has come down. Richard Drax: First, may I concur entirely with the They have got absolutely nothing to say about the Prime Minister’s words about the appalling tragedies economy because they have been wrong on every single that have unfolded around the world? count. Bearing in mind the continuing success of our long-term economic plan, can my right hon. Friend please reassure Edward Miliband: The right hon. Gentleman is crowing the House that there will be no further cuts to our that everything is fixed. It may be fixed for his Christmas armed forces under a future Tory or coalition Government? card list, but it is not fixed for far too many people in this country. The Prime Minister: I absolutely agree with my hon. The right hon. Gentleman did not really answer the Friend that we can have a strong defence budget and question on VAT, did he? This is what he said before the strong defence forces only if we have a strong economy last election on 5 April 2010: “We have…no plans” to and a clear long-term economic plan. Our defence put up VAT. Barely two months later he put up VAT budget is the biggest in the EU and the second largest in from 17.5% to 20%. He has £7 billion of unfunded tax NATO, and we meet the guideline of 2% of GDP. I can cuts, a deficit plan that he cannot meet, and we know tell him that, because of the success of our economic that he has got form. Will he now categorically rule out plan, we are able to commit to over £160 billion of a rise in VAT? investment in equipment and equipment support over the next 10 years. That is why we will see the aircraft The Prime Minister: We do not need to raise taxes carriers, the Type 45 destroyers, the future frigates, the because we have a plan for efficiencies in spending. It is A400Ms and the hunter-killer submarines. We are seeing the Labour party that does not have a plan. The right incredible equipment rolling off the production lines in hon. Gentleman asks what has changed for real people our country to help keep us safe. over the past year, and I will tell him: 588,000 people who did not have a job last year have one this year. Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): The terrible Long-term unemployment has fallen. Youthunemployment slaughter of the innocents in Pakistan yesterday shocked has fallen. You might have thought that the Labour the world and is another example of the obscene atrocities party would welcome those things. It is Christmas, so being visited upon children in various parts of the we should all enter into the Christmas spirit. I have had world by these barbaric forces. Another example was my Christmas present a little early, because I have here the attack on the 200 schoolchildren who were abducted the document being sent to every Labour MP. In case in north-east Nigeria in April of this year. At the time, they have not had time to read it, let me advise them the Government and other Governments pledged their that if they go to page 17—[Interruption.] Be patient. It support to do what they could to assist in the hunt for is there in black and white: on managing the economy, those children. What reassurances can the Prime Minister the Conservatives have a 17-point lead. Thank you. provide on that and on the commitment that British experts will assist? Edward Miliband: I hope that over Christmas the Prime Minister will get to reflect on his year. He has lost The Prime Minister: In all these cases, we see what two Members of Parliament to UKIP, he lost 26-2 in expertise and assets we can bring into play to help Europe, and he brought a whole new meaning to the Governments who are trying to combat these problems. phrase “conviction politician” when Andy Coulson went In Nigeria, for a period, we lent the expertise of our to jail. The truth is that he has given up on compassionate fighter jets, with their RAPTOR pods, in order to conservatism. They have been exposed for who they provide imaging to try to help find the Chibok girls, and really are. His plan for the 2020s is to go back to the we continue to work with the Nigerian Government in 1930s. It is not about balancing the books; it is about every way we can. With Pakistan, again, we believe that slashing the state. In just four months’ time that will be the Pakistan Government must confront terrorism in all the election choice. its forms, and they are taking steps to do that. I think today is the day when we should redouble our support The Prime Minister: What this has shown is that on a and our efforts, and the whole world should do the day when it has been shown that unemployment has same, to say that if the Pakistan Government want to fallen, inflation is down and our economy is growing continue to act to root out terror—and none of this can faster than any other major economy in the western be justified—they have the support of the whole world, world, the right hon. Gentleman has absolutely nothing Britain included. to say. I almost feel sorry for Labour MPs. They cannot talk about the deficit, because it has fallen. They cannot Q3. [906685] Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): Will the talk about growth, because it is rising. They cannot talk Prime Minister join me in thanking businesses, schools, about jobs, because we are increasing them. They cannot my Festomane team and the college for organising the 1399 Oral Answers17 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 1400 week-long festival—week long—of manufacturing and Q5. [906687] Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon engineering in my constituency, which was opened by Tyne East) (Lab): I welcome the fall in unemployment, the Prince of Wales? Does my right hon. Friend agree but it is still too high in the north-east of England. Will that by focusing on innovation and productivity this the Prime Minister tell the House, and my unemployed Government will deliver more exports and higher constituents, who are the principal candidates for standards of living? working-age benefit cuts?

The Prime Minister: I certainly join my hon. Friend The Prime Minister: Let me join the right hon. Gentleman in that. People might know that this is an annual in welcoming the fall in unemployment; it has fallen in week-long festival, championed by him, that showcases every region of the country over the past year. In the local manufacturing success stories. I remember that north-east over the past year, unemployment is down by when I visited his constituency we watched a 3D bike 11,000, and that is welcome. In terms of addressing the being printed in metal—it was extremely impressive. We costs of welfare, I think we should be very frank about need to continue with the long-term plan, which is this, as I was discussing, calmly, earlier with the Leader delivering a more balanced recovery, with manufacturing of the Opposition. Whoever is Prime Minister after the growing, as well as construction and services. Our next election is going to have to make public spending commitments to increasing the number of apprentices, reductions. We have a choice: whether we leave the to helping companies with research and development welfare bill as it is, or whether, like Labour Members, and to keeping tax rates low are all delivering a very we vote this afternoon to add £2 billion to the welfare strong manufacturing success rate for Britain. bill—that is what they are talking about this afternoon: £2 billion on welfare—and then have to take that money Dame Tessa Jowell (Dulwich and West Norwood) out of the education Department, or the health (Lab): Millions of people will work extra hours this Department, or policing. We think we should not do Christmas in difficult and often low-paid jobs so that that; we think, yes, there are reductions in welfare that they can send money to relatives living abroad. Their can be made. We will make them, and that will keep remittances to sub-Saharan Africa alone account for taxes down and make sure that we can have good public more than donor aid, but their money transfers will be services. hit by fees and charges often as high as 15%. Five years ago, the G8 committed to reducing this transfer tax to Q6. [906688] Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): For 5%. Will the Prime Minister therefore join me in calling people starting their careers, newly married couples or on the transfer companies to cut their charges for others, the prospect of owning their first home is a Christmas as a first step to meeting the G8 promise to much desired but very difficult step. What are the families in some of the poorest countries in the world? Government doing to help young people in my constituency make that positive move? The Prime Minister: The right hon. Lady is absolutely right to highlight the importance of remittances. The The Prime Minister: There are two vital steps that we amount of money that goes from our country, in the can take. The first is to go on backing the Help to Buy form of remittances, to countries such as Somalia and scheme, which has helped thousands of people in our others in sub-Saharan Africa in desperate need actually country—I think over 70,000 people now. It enables outweighs significantly the aid we are able to give to people who are working hard, who earn a decent salary those countries. So yes, we should look, and we are, at and who can afford the mortgage payments to take out every way we can to help these remittances take place. that mortgage and buy that home because they do not There have been problems in the past with making sure need such a big deposit. That is the first thing we should that we apply measures on money laundering and other do, and we shall continue with that. potential issues to them, but we looking hard at what The second, as I announced on Monday, is that we we can do to keep the charges down. want to build starter homes that are 20% below the market price. These should be homes not for rent, but Q4. [906686] Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con): One that young people can buy. They will be reserved for of the characteristics of the decade leading up to the people under the age of 40. Again, this is for people financial crisis was the £1 trillion increase in household who work hard, and who want to get on and do the debt. Will my right hon. Friend assure the House that right thing for themselves and their families. Under a no future long-term economic plan will be financed by Conservative Government, they will have homes they a debt bubble inflated on the backs of hard-working can buy. households? Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): I was contacted at the The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely weekend by a constituent who told me that a fall left his right. One of the changes we have made since the crash 78-year-old mother bleeding on the kitchen floor and is to put in place proper arrangements for the Bank of that it took almost an hour and a half for the ambulance England to call time on the level of indebtedness in the to attend. Is that not indicative of the health service economy and to make sure that financial regulation, under this Government? What is the Prime Minister including regulation of the mortgage market, for instance, going to do to ensure that pressures on ambulance is properly put in place. That is one of the important services are eased? lessons. I have to say to Labour Members that one of the other important lessons is that when you have had a The Prime Minister: What is indicative of the NHS long period of economic growth you should be trying to under this Government is the fact that there are 1,700 more pay down your debt and aiming for a surplus. That is paramedics and 200 more ambulances than when we what fixing the roof when the sun is shining is all about. came to power. The reason for that is we did not listen 1401 Oral Answers17 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 1402 to the Labour party, which said that it was irresponsible and his borough in London. What we are doing, because to increase health spending; instead, we put £12.7 billion we have a long-term economic plan, is investing in local into the NHS. Where any ambulance trust falls down, health services. that is a matter of serious regret and should be looked into very carefully. I will look into this case, as I would Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East with any other. Cleveland) (Lab): Today, there are 2,500 fewer nurses in our NHS than in May 2010. Why? Q7. [906689] Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con): Does my right hon. Friend agree The Prime Minister: Obviously the hon. Gentleman that it is not unhelpful to discuss the concerns of voters has not been studying either the documents he gets sent in Basildon and Thurrock about border controls and by his own party or the figures. Today, actually, there immigration? Anyone who thinks that is out of touch, are new figures out on the NHS, and I am delighted to and perhaps should be moved on. give him the new figures. We were saying that there were 2,000 extra nurses under this Government. That was The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is right. Our job wrong: there are 3,000 more nurses under this Government. as elected politicians is to respond to people’s concerns We were saying until very recently that there were and to address them. This is why I fear for the Christmases 7,000 more doctors under this Government. I am ashamed of Labour MPs. What are they going to talk about? to say that was wrong, too: the figure is 8,000 more This document says immigration. That is out of the doctors under this Government. The NHS is performing question: they cannot talk about that. On the figures well because we have put the money in and made the today, there is not much point talking about unemployment, reforms. because it is plummeting. They have got nothing to say about the deficit. They spent precisely one week telling Q9. [906691] Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): May I us the deficit mattered before pitching up today and commend to my right hon. Friend some advice from spending £2 billion on welfare. I think they will want to Karl Marx, who, as European correspondent of the skip over leadership issues quite quickly. It is going to New-York Tribune, observed that there were be a very difficult time for them. “vital interests which should render Great Britain the earnest and unyielding opponent of the Russian projects of annexation and Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): I do not know whether aggrandisement.” the Prime Minister has received any Christmas cards He went on to say that in featuring husky dogs, but will he tell us whether he “the arrest of the Russian scheme of annexation…the interests agrees with his right hon. Friend the Member for North of…Democracy and of England go hand in hand.” Shropshire (Mr Paterson), who has said that the UK’s Does my right hon. Friend agree that for the United groundbreaking Climate Change Act 2008 should be Kingdom, Europe, the west and indeed the whole world, scrapped? one of our most important foreign policy priorities for 2015 should be to see that Russia behaves, as one would The Prime Minister: I have not checked all my Christmas expect a member of the Security Council to behave, in cards, but I do not think I have so far had the one the the interests of international law? hon. Lady suggests. I spent an hour and three-quarters in front of the Liaison Committee yesterday discussing issues of climate change. The legislation we have in The Prime Minister: I very much agree with my right place is delivering cuts in carbon emissions. Under this hon. Friend. I have not spent as much time studying Government, we have seen the world’s first green investment Karl Marx as he has, or perhaps even as the Leader of bank—beating the rest of the world in doing that—and the Opposition has—I do not know what goes on in we have doubled the amount of investment going into Camden these days. renewable energy compared with the previous two In this respect, Karl Marx was right that the interests Parliaments. That is what is happening under our of the United Kingdom and democracy go together. We Government. should stand up very firmly against the Russian aggression that has taken place, and we led the way in Europe in Q8. [906690] Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) making sure that there were sanctions. What the (Con): Will the Prime Minister confirm that, owing to combination of the lower oil price and the sanctions is the long campaign led by my hon. Friend the Member showing is that it is not possible for Russia to be part of for Enfield North (Nick de Bois) and, of course, the the international financial system but try to opt out of Government’s long-term economic plan, my constituents the rules-based international legal system. That is what can have extended urgent care this winter, and can look is being demonstrated, and we should keep up the forward to the rebuilding, at long last, of Chase Farm pressure. hospital in the new year? Q10. [906692] Douglas Carswell (Clacton) (UKIP): The Prime Minister: I know how hard my hon. Friends The levy control framework—the total cost added to have worked for this outcome. I am happy to say that energy bills and taxation by green targets—will rise Enfield clinical commissioning group has announced from £2.3 billion in 2012 to £9.8 billion in 2020, at a an extension to the opening hours of Chase Farm time when many households are struggling to heat their urgent care centre. This will be in place until the local homes. Does my hon. Friend think that is fair? urgent care review reports. Further, I can confirm that the Government have set aside £230 million for the The Prime Minister: The levy control framework has redevelopment of the Chase Farm site. That is very been fixed, and it sets the overall amount of investment good news for the people of my hon. Friend’s constituency that can go into renewable energy schemes, many of 1403 Oral Answers17 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 1404 which are providing jobs for constituencies up and have cut stamp duty for those families so that they can down the country—often particularly those on the east afford those houses. What a contrast with the Labour coast of our country, not least in Hull, where an enormous party, which wants a new homes tax. amount of investment is going in. I welcome that investment, and I am not sure what the hon. Gentleman’s Q13. [906695] Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): view is. My constituent who is paying £12 a week out of an income of £72 a week on the bedroom tax was less than Mr Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe) (Con): Will the Prime impressed to find out that annual spending on housing Minister confirm that if he and the Chancellor deliver benefit is now £4 billion higher than it was in 2010. their plans for the economy, they will take public spending When will this Prime Minister tackle the real causes of back to the level that was being delivered by a former the increase in spending on housing benefit, which are Labour Chancellor, but only because he was bound by low wages and high rents? an election pledge to stick to my economic plan, which he therefore inherited from a Conservative Government? The Prime Minister: The point is that the Labour party has opposed every single change to welfare and The Prime Minister: My right hon. and learned Friend housing benefit, and this afternoon Labour Members gives us a very important historical perspective. It comes will vote in this house for an extra £2 billion of welfare back to the point that the Opposition now seem to be spending—all that in the week when they are meant to basing their entire economic policy on some throwaway be telling us how much they care about the deficit. It is remark on the BBC at about 10 past 6 on a Monday completely incoherent, and that is why the British public morning. The truth is, what is envisaged is getting will never trust the Labour party with the economy public spending back to the level where it was in 2002, again. when the Leader of the Opposition was sitting in the Treasury. I am afraid that his whole idea, like all his economic policies, has collapsed within five minutes. Q14. [906696] Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): The recent announcement about the building of the Glossop spur, and the consultation to extend the bypass Q11. [906693] Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): The most recent OECD report, No. 163, around Tintwistle, has been widely welcomed across my on income inequality, shows that the UK economy constituency. There is, however, some scepticism about would be 20% bigger if tax policies had redistributed it actually happening, given that the previous Labour income to the bottom 40% of citizens. Can the Prime Government shelved their scheme in 2009. Will my Minister resist the temptation to waffle and consider right hon. Friend reassure me and my constituents that seriously his policies and those of Chancellor Scrooge a future Conservative Government can be relied on to over his five years, of rewarding the rich with tax cuts deliver that scheme? and hammering middle and low-income people with rises in the cost of living, not only— The Prime Minister: I can certainly give my hon. Friend that assurance. I know that he has campaigned Mr Speaker: Order. I call the Prime Minister. tirelessly to improve roads in his High Peak constituency, and the trans-Pennine routes are vital. We can give that The Prime Minister: I was just about getting the hang assurance because we have a long-term economic plan of it. The problem with the Labour party’s attemptive that is delivering the economic growth that we need and narrative is that it simply is not true. Labour Members seeing our deficit come down. Because we have made talk about inequality, but inequality is lower than it was that success, we can commit to these road schemes. at the election. They talk about poverty, but there are 600,000 fewer people in relative poverty than there were Home Insulation at the election. They talk about child poverty, but there are 300,000 fewer children in relative poverty than at the Q15. [906697] Liz McInnes (Heywood and Middleton) election. This afternoon we will be talking about children, (Lab): What steps the Government are taking to and there are 390,000 fewer children in households protect older people from ill health caused by cold and where no one works than there were in 2010. Those are badly insulated homes. the facts. They may be inconvenient, but Labour ought to have a look at them. The Prime Minister: The Government are using a Q12. [906694] John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): Last week, range of measures, including cold weather payments, my constituents, charity workers Alex and Becky Ewing, the warm home discount, and an increase in pensions. faced a tax bill of more than £8,000 as they moved into We will improve the warmth of 1 million homes by their first home. As reported in the excellent Salisbury March 2015. That provides real help to older people by Journal, Mr Ewing declared that he was “blown away” taking money off their bills and insulating their homes by the Chancellor’s statement and will be giving some to ensure that they are able to keep warm this winter. of the £4,500 stamp duty that he unexpectedly saved to local charities. What message does last week’s Liz McInnes: That is an interesting response, but my announcement send to first time buyers this Christmas? constituent William Sullivan has written to me to say how appalled he is that last year more than 18,000 people The Prime Minister: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. in England and Wales died simply because of the cold. The message that the autumn statement sends is that we What guarantee can the Prime Minister give me that no are on the side of people who work hard, want to get more of my constituents will suffer in the cold this on, and who want to own their own flat or home. We winter for want of a properly insulated home? 1405 Oral Answers17 DECEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 1406

The Prime Minister: Every excess winter death is a The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend is absolutely tragedy, and 18,200 deaths last year was too many. right. We have increased spending by £12.7 billion. That However, that is half the level of excess winter deaths in translates into a real-terms increase. Scotland and Wales 2008-09, when the Leader of the Opposition was the have had the extra money to spend, but Labour in Energy Secretary. We will continue with the long-term Wales chose to cut the NHS rather than to invest in it, patient work of the warm home discount, keeping the and in Scotland the SNP Government have not translated winter fuel and cold weather payments, and schemes to the full amount of money. That is why, when we look at insulate people’s homes. That is the right way forward. figures for such things as accident and emergency, yes, we need to do better in England, but our performance is Engagements still well better than it is in Wales, Scotland, or, indeed, in Northern Ireland. The moral of this story is that you Sir Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): Will the Prime need a long-term economic plan and a Conservative-led Minister confirm that NHS spending under the coalition Government to deliver these advances. Government has risen by 4% in real terms? That has been passed on to Scotland, where spending has in fact been cut by 1%. Is he also aware that Grampian has a Michael Connarty: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. £70 million two-year shortfall in funding? Consequently, the responsibility for the crisis in the health service in Mr Speaker: Points of order come after statements, the north-east of Scotland lies firmly with the Scottish and we have a statement. The hon. Gentleman ought to Government, led until a few weeks ago by Alex Salmond, know that by know, with the greatest of respect. We will the MSP for Aberdeenshire East. come to the statement in a moment. 1407 17 DECEMBER 2014 Al-Sweady Inquiry Report 1408

Al-Sweady Inquiry Report the inquiry and preceding judicial review, all those whose bodies were handed over to the Iraqi authorities 12.36 pm for burial on 15 May died on the battlefield. The delay in making this concession is both inexplicable and The Secretary of State for Defence (Michael Fallon): shameful. By 4 July last year, expert witnesses had With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a already demonstrated unequivocally that the Iraqis had statement on the report into the al-Sweady inquiry into died as a result of wounds sustained in the fighting. allegations that British forces tortured and executed up Had the concession been made then, it would not have to 20 Iraqi men on 14 and 15 May 2004, and mistreated been necessary for so many soldiers to give evidence, nine others between 14 May and 23 September 2004. Sir Thayne could have concluded his hearings more I am today laying before the House the independent quickly, and there would have been a significantly smaller report published this morning by Sir Thayne Forbes, bill to the taxpayer. the chairman of the public inquiry into these incidents. I am grateful to Sir Thayne and his team for their I turn now to the issue of detention. Following the painstaking work, and for producing a report that puts battle, the nine detainees were taken to Camp Abu Naji. to rest once and for all these shocking and, as we now Sir Thayne has rejected most of the allegations made in know, completely baseless allegations. As I know Sir Thayne connection with their treatment at the camp, including will acknowledge, the Ministry of Defence has provided a lack of adequate medical care, assaults, the withholding unstinting support for his inquiry. During 169 days of of drinking water in contravention of the Geneva hearings, Sir Thayne heard evidence from 55 Iraqi conventions and the use of white noise. However, I witnesses, 222 current and former service personnel and accept Sir Thayne’s conclusion that some instances of four expert witnesses. He also considered the written ill treatment did occur: the detainees were not provided statements of a further 328 witnesses. His findings are with adequate food, and such food as was given was not incontrovertible. provided until they had been tactically questioned; they It was alleged that, following a planned and co-ordinated were prevented from sleeping until three to four hours ambush of British troops by heavily armed Iraqi insurgents after they arrived at the camp; their sight was restricted around the Danny Boy permanent vehicle checkpoint almost continuously; and the use of “harsh” tactical on the main road between Basra and al-Amarah, British questioning techniques—since withdrawn—amounted service personnel captured up to 20 Iraqi men alive, to ill treatment. Importantly, Sir Thayne observes that took them back to Camp Abu Naji, and then tortured as a result of changes made by the MOD over the past and killed them in cold blood. These are allegations of several years, such ill treatment should not occur in the most serious nature and they are untrue. future. The allegations have changed several times over the Sir Thayne also concluded that the requirement for years. This is how Mr Phil Shiner, of the firm Public detainees to undress fully as part of their medical Interest Lawyers, presented them at a press conference examination and concurrent search for prohibited items in 2008: amounted to ill treatment, and he did criticise the “What you have heard is evidence that these 5 survivors have attitude of the regimental medical officer towards the witnessed, seemingly in three separate venues at close hand: medical examination of the detainees on their arrival at The execution of up to 15 men Shaibah, but he also concluded that only one of the Between 4 and 5 of these executions involving shots at close detainees, who suffered discomfort for longer than he range and the remainder some sort of strangulation or throat might otherwise have done, suffered any adverse cutting consequences as a result of deficiencies in the medical Some of these executions preceded by torture or mutilations that are so horrific that our clients could not describe the prolonged examination. I wish to express my regret to the House screaming without breaking down.” that these instances of ill treatment should have occurred. Today it has been confirmed that British soldiers did Sir Thayne Forbes has made just nine recommendations, not carry out the atrocities falsely attributed to them. and he acknowledges the progress that the Ministry has Sir Thayne deals unequivocally with the soldiers’ actions made since 2004 to improve all aspects of the prisoner- and the falsity of the allegations. I quote: handling system—from policy and doctrine to unit-level “this Inquiry has established beyond doubt that all the most instructions and procedures as well as training and serious allegations, made against the British soldiers involved in oversight—and to ensure it complies with domestic and the Battle of Danny Boy and its aftermath and which have been international law. I accept all nine recommendations in hanging over those soldiers for the last 10 years, have been found to be wholly without foundation and entirely the product of principle. I have commissioned urgent work on their deliberate lies, reckless speculation and ingrained hostility.” practical implications—in particular, we will need to He indeed contrasts the falsity of the Iraqi accounts ensure that they will not prevent the armed forces from with the truthfulness of the military witnesses: carrying out vital tasks—and I will announce to the “the vast majority of the allegations made against the British House my detailed conclusions as soon as I can. military, which this Inquiry was required to investigate (including, The Iraqi detainees, their accomplices and their lawyers without exception, all the most serious allegations), were wholly and entirely without merit or justification. Very many of those must bear the brunt of the criticism for the protracted baseless allegations were the product of deliberate and calculated nature and £31 million cost of this unnecessary public lies on the part of those who made them and who then gave inquiry. The falsity of the overwhelming majority of evidence to this Inquiry in order to support and perpetuate their allegations, the extraordinarily late disclosure of a them.” document showing the nine detainees to have been The counsel for the nine former detainees and the insurgents and the delay by their lawyers in withdrawing relatives of the deceased conceded only as late as March the allegations of torture and murder have prompted this year that the evidence pointed overwhelmingly to the Solicitors Regulation Authority to investigate possible the fact that, as the Government maintained throughout breaches of professional standards. The authority is 1409 Al-Sweady Inquiry Report17 DECEMBER 2014 Al-Sweady Inquiry Report 1410 expected to complete its investigation into the two firms challenging conditions. The battle of Danny Boy in responsible, Public Interest Lawyers and Leigh Day and southern Iraq in 2004 was one such occasion when the Co., early next year. battle was ferocious and our troops were in great danger. Had the Legal Services Commission been aware in As the Defence Secretary rightly pointed out, five 2008 of this document it would have refused legal aid soldiers were awarded the military cross and one the for the judicial review that took place then. That would conspicuous gallantry cross. As well as their courage, have spared the service personnel a further six years of British soldiers pride themselves on their conduct in uncertainty and anxiety. It would have spared the relatives battle and the high standards to which they are held and of the deceased a further six years of false hope, and it indeed hold themselves. Does he agree that they are would have saved the British taxpayer a very high bill. and will remain accountable both to international law Although procedural failures by the MOD led to the and to the Geneva convention? public inquiry being established, it is those who made Does the Defence Secretary also agree that this House these false allegations who bear the responsibility for and any UK Government are not afraid to be open and saddling the taxpayer with what has turned out to be a frank when those high standards are not met and our £31 million bill. Although there is no provision in the armed forces do not adhere to the conduct expected of Inquiries Act 2005 for recovering the costs of a public the British military? There are many examples of that— inquiry, my Ministry is exploring whether the claimants’ most strikingly, the statement of the Prime Minister failure to disclose the militia document will allow us to and the Leader of the Opposition in 2010 after the recover some of the costs of the judicial review. publication of the report of the Saville inquiry into the In conclusion, I regret that it was found necessary to events known as Bloody Sunday, and the response to hold a public inquiry to disprove these allegations. This the Baha Mousa inquiry. It should be a source of pride is not another Baha Mousa or an Abu Ghraib. No one that we are a country where that can happen. died in British custody and there was no deliberate ill treatment. The few instances of ill treatment that did Does the Defence Secretary agree that, likewise, we occur were rather the result of failings in doctrine and will not tolerate calculated, malicious and baseless untruths training that have already been or are being corrected. against our servicemen and women? This report states This was a shameful attempt to use our legal system—our in those very terms that the serious allegations that legal system—to attack and falsely impugn our armed precipitated the inquiry were just that. There were no forces. That it has failed reflects the diligence and skill unlawful killings on the battlefield, no mutilation of with which Sir Thayne has uncovered the facts. bodies and no executions in custody. I want to establish that very clearly before I ask him some questions about I quoted earlier the accusations made by Mr Shiner the report’s findings. of Public Interest Lawyers in calling for this inquiry. At that time he said: In dismissing the serious allegations made against “Do not believe for one second that we make these allegations British troops, the report nevertheless draws attention lightly or without the evidence available to substantiate every to some areas where we should learn lessons. Opposition single word of what we say.” Members support the conclusions and recommendations It is now beyond doubt that those allegations were of the report. Does the Defence Secretary agree that the without foundation. I challenge Mr Shiner and the implementation of its nine recommendations can be other lawyers involved, from both firms, to issue an achieved with speed and efficiency? We will support him unequivocal apology to the soldiers whose reputations in achieving that. they attempted to traduce and to the taxpayers who The report says that the conduct of some individual have had to pay the costs of exposing these lies. soldiers did amount to actual or possible ill treatment. I I add only one final comment. Following the battle of of course join the Defence Secretary in expressing regret Danny Boy, five soldiers were awarded the military that that occurred. It is not acceptable. Have the soldiers cross and one the conspicuous gallantry cross for their been identified? Are they still in service and, if so, what conduct there and in other engagements in early 2004. steps are being taken to address those concerns? The Other acts of bravery emerge clearly in the accounts of report states that Ministry of Defence procedures in the battle. This is who our servicemen and women are. place at the time might have contributed to what happened. The reputation of our armed forces has been hard won Can the Defence Secretary confirm that, if those procedures in the service of our nation. It will survive the baseless have not been updated already, they will be reviewed slurs of those who seek to undermine those on whom now? we all depend. I commend this statement to the House. The report identifies ways in which we might be able to avoid the need for such costly inquiries in future. I 12.49 pm share with the Defence Secretary the concerns about the Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab): I thank the Secretary legal representatives and the legal process in this instance. of State for advance sight of his statement and for In that sense, the recommendations in the report will providing a copy of the inquiry report this morning. I ensure a better way of examining allegations against the also join him in thanking Sir Thayne Forbes and his armed forces, avoiding unnecessarily cumbersome processes team for their diligent work and comprehensive and and, as he pointed out, significant financial costs. conclusive report. What progress has been made on the collection of, As the Defence Secretary said, our armed forces are storage of and ability to search documents and other the best in the world. British servicemen and women records? Has the shooting incident policy been reviewed carry out their duties with bravery and distinction, and and updated? Are there plans to do so? What changes we owe them all a debt of gratitude for their service to have been made to the recording of the circumstances our country. They often face the most difficult and of a prisoner’s detention? More generally, how does the 1411 Al-Sweady Inquiry Report17 DECEMBER 2014 Al-Sweady Inquiry Report 1412

[Vernon Coaker] State to ensure that in future we have the right role for political officers on the ground to ensure that bodies are Defence Secretary plan to review any shortcomings in treated in the correct fashion, that the survivors’ families existing practices and procedures, and ensure that they are reached out to in the correct fashion and that trust are updated and amended? is built between the British military and the local political In its conclusion, the report compared, as did the leaders to ensure that our soldiers are protected from Defence Secretary, the testimony of those alleging and these baseless allegations. those being accused. The report said that the Iraqi witnesses were Michael Fallon: My hon. Friend makes the very “unprincipled in the extreme and wholly without regard for the important point that we need to reflect on the extent to truth” which these lies and untruths were believed by the local while the British military witnesses were, by contrast, community in the area. He makes the point all the more “truthful and reliable”, despite the difficulty and distress powerfully because of his personal experience and caused by recalling traumatic events of battle. I think knowledge—not simply of Iraq, but of that particular the House will join me in saying that that speaks for province of Iraq. I will certainly reflect further on the itself—and it speaks volumes. point he makes about the role of political officers.

Michael Fallon: I am grateful to the shadow Defence Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab): I Secretary for what he has said and for the tone in which commissioned this report only after the Department he said it. I agree with his comment about the baseless was very heavily criticised in the courts for having failed untruths. He started by saying that our armed forces properly to investigate the allegations that were being must be accountable to the law, and it is important to made. I believed then, as I believe now, that the main emphasise that—that they are accountable under both reason for that failure was not a lack of will on our part, domestic law and the law of armed conflict, and that but a refusal to co-operate with an inquiry by the where there are allegations they will always be investigated. representatives of the Iraqis, public interest lawyers and We should be open and frank about that. Where instances Mr Phil Shiner. I have no way of knowing or proving of some ill treatment or harsh treatment occur, they what the motives were for that lack of co-operation, but should be fully and honestly investigated. I do think I do know that public interest lawyers have a very that there are very few countries and judicial systems lucrative business model. that would put themselves through this kind of inquiry We have to ensure that when serious allegations are to get to the truth. made, they are properly investigated. That is the kind of The hon. Gentleman asked me some specific questions. nation we are and it is the way in which we manage to On the recommendations, I am studying the report in ensure that our armed forces maintain the very highest detail and I will respond, as is customary, within the levels attainable. Equally, however, we have to protect next few weeks on the detail of the recommendations. I the public purse from misuse. I urge the Secretary of hope it is clear that I accept the spirit of them all and State, his Government colleagues and the other parties the principle behind them all. I just have to look at some in the House to think about how we can ensure that of the practicalities of implementing at least one or two both those things happen. We need to continue to of them. impose the rule of law in very difficult circumstances, I do not have any up-to-date information about where but also to ensure that our systems are not being the personnel are currently serving. Perhaps the hon. systematically abused. Gentleman would allow me to write to him on that specific point. Michael Fallon: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman On the procedural changes, these were the procedures for explaining the circumstances in which the public that applied 10 years ago, in 2004. Sir Thayne himself inquiry came into being. He has much closer knowledge acknowledges that many of the procedural changes of it than others, because he was responsible for setting have already been introduced. On the public inquiry, it it up. He is right: the price that we pay for the reputation might have been easy for the incoming Government—the of our armed forces is that when such allegations are inquiry was set up under the previous Government—simply made—wherever they come from—they must be to halt the public inquiry, but I believe that it was the investigated, and they are investigated immediately in right decision to allow it to run its course. However, we the field by the Royal Military Police and their special now have the Iraq historic allegations team, which will investigators. It is right that that happens. be able to get at the truth of these allegations probably The right hon. Gentleman made an important point in a different format and a little more quickly than a about costs, and the fact that certain unscrupulous public inquiry, inevitably. That is not a criticism of Sir lawyers appear to be benefiting directly, at public expense, Thayne—far from it. from their ability to trigger inquiries such as this. We need to look into how that might be curtailed, and I Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con): I join welcome his suggestion that the matter might be pursued the Secretary of State in absolutely commending the on a genuinely bipartisan basis. report for reinforcing the honour and respect of the British soldiers. Having been based in Abu Naji and Mr Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe) (Con): Does my right Maysan at the time, I encourage the Secretary of State hon. Friend agree—he appears to—that, while it is to focus on the broader political context. It was completely essential for a country with values such as ours to hold tragic that not just a few Iraqis, but most of the Iraqi inquiries into the serious allegations against our armed leadership in the province were convinced of these forces or our intelligence services that are made from unimaginable atrocities. I encourage the Secretary of time to time, there is always the danger that a tiny 1413 Al-Sweady Inquiry Report17 DECEMBER 2014 Al-Sweady Inquiry Report 1414 minority of the legal profession will create something of Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): Obviously we should all an industry in pursuing them to the point of a long and support our armed forces, and I welcome what the difficult inquiry such as this? Will he ask our right hon. Secretary of State said in his statement. We have very Friend the Secretary of State for Justice to take the courageous, professional and decent armed forces who matter up with the leaders of the judiciary and the have to perform in some terrible and traumatic leaders of the profession, who I am sure will agree with circumstances, and we have seen yet again that they are him that there is a danger that needs to be tackled? forces of whom we should all be proud. May I ask, however, whether the Secretary of State feels that Michael Fallon: As I have already emphasised, when improvements could be made in the chain of command there are allegations they need to be investigated and to enable situations such as this to be dealt with properly when there are failings they need to be put right, but in the first place, rather than developing to such an what has emerged very clearly from the report is that all extent that an inquiry is necessary? those serious allegations had no foundation whatever. My right hon. and learned Friend has made the constructive Michael Fallon: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman suggestion that we should discuss not just with my right for his opening remarks. He speaks with particular hon. Friend the Justice Secretary but with the leaders of authority as a former defence Minister, and I will consider the profession how we can curtail some of the abuse what he has said about the chain of command. As we and cost involved. His point is all the more powerful heard from his right hon. Friend the right hon. Member given that he is a member of that profession; it is good for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth), a number of to hear such a suggestion from the profession itself. interlocking issues were involved. There was the judicial review and the public inquiry, and so on. However, I Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): I fully think that we would all want to avoid putting members accept the report’s conclusions, and I am delighted on of our armed forces through this process, given the time behalf of the individual members of the armed forces and cost that were involved in exposing an allegation—the who were accused of these vile atrocities. They have major allegation—that turned out to be completely been completely exonerated, which is good for them untrue. and good for the armed forces generally. However—this point was raised by the hon. Member for Gedling Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): I welcome the (Vernon Coaker)—while I recognise that instances of ill statement, and the very clear outcome of an inquiry treatment are few and far between and are relatively that was far more credible because it was judge-led. minor in comparison with the awful accusations that When he established the Gibson inquiry, the Prime were levelled at the troops, I trust that they will be Minister said: addressed by the Secretary of State. “For public confidence, and for independence from Parliament, party and government, it is right to have a judge-led inquiry.” Michael Fallon: Yes. As I said earlier, we have already Does the Secretary of State agree with that principle, made a series of changes in our procedures, and we will and would he like it to be extended to other inquiries continue to do so. The report makes some important into allegations of British involvement in torture? points about retrieval of information from the battlefield, archiving and the use of information systems to make it Michael Fallon: I think that my hon. Friend is tempting easier to get more quickly to the truth of what actually me to stray slightly from the subject of the statement. happened. Let me emphasise again, however, that when The inquiry clearly benefited from the professionalism there are allegations they will be properly and fully and skill of Sir Thayne Forbes and his team, and I think investigated, and when there are failings we should own we should leave it at that. up to them and put the procedures right. Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab): Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): It is of In all my time in the House, I have seldom been more course an absolute outrage that it has taken 10 stress-filled shocked than I was by the statement today. I cannot years to clear these young soldiers of the baseless slurs even imagine how those service people have coped for against them, but is there not a wider point to be made? 10 years with such a cloud hanging over them. What Does the Secretary of State agree that allowing further support are the Government giving them and their claims and allegations of this kind—the baseless ones families? and even, perhaps, the slightly less baseless ones—to be pursued in the same way might interfere with the perfectly Michael Fallon: The hon. Lady’s question gives me an legitimate conduct of warfare, and that there is a real opportunity to update an earlier answer. One of the risk that legitimate warfare will be replaced with “lawfare”? soldiers named in the report is still serving, but I understand that the rest have left the armed forces. Michael Fallon: I am, of course, concerned that the The hon. Lady has made a good point about the operational efficiency of commanders in the field should support available to soldiers who must either serve or, if not be inhibited by additional legal complications, such they have left the forces, bear the brunt of allegations of as fresh rulings by the European Court of Human this kind. If I may, I will look into the matter further Rights or attempts to extend a health and safety regime and write to her. that would apply in civilian life to the battlefield. We must think carefully about the weight of law imposed Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): I, on those whom we ask to do very dangerous things in too, welcome the statement. It is important that we our name and to react very quickly. This was a battlefield, should inquire into serious allegations when they are and I think it important for the House to bear that made, and that we should have the sort of judge-led in mind. inquiry that we have had in this case. 1415 Al-Sweady Inquiry Report17 DECEMBER 2014 Al-Sweady Inquiry Report 1416

[Sir Oliver Heald] overwhelming majority of our servicemen and women have served with distinction and honour, and that, I agree with what was said by my right hon. and regardless of people’s different views on the conflict, as learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), a country we owe them a debt of gratitude? I ask the and I share the sense of shock that I think the whole Secretary of State to give an assurance that any British House feels about the people who made up such shocking soldier who has been materially affected by their service lies about our armed forces. It is good that the forces in Iraq will, whatever the point in their life when they have been cleared, but is there any indication of what have been affected, be properly looked after by our the motivation was? Was it hostility to our country? country. [HON.MEMBERS: “Money!”] Was it money? Does anything in the report explain this outrageous behaviour? Michael Fallon: On the hon. Gentleman’s first point, he is right to draw the House’s attention to the fact that Michael Fallon: I am not sure that I should comment thousands of British troops served in Iraq. They did so on the motives involved—I think that the report speaks with distinction and they did us proud, and only a very for itself in that regard—but I believe that the House small handful had these allegations made against them. would be with me in questioning the motives of some of We should remember that. the advisers involved. I do not think that they have helped the reputation of the British legal system in any On supporting our servicemen and ex-servicemen, I respect. am delighted that the armed forces covenant is now enshrined in law; we must now make a reality of that Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I welcome the covenant. The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence, statement. The untrue and false allegations affected the my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), British Army and directly affected these soldiers and has written to all colleagues in the House drawing their families; for many, they led to both physical and attention to the role we can play in making sure that the emotional changes. What can be done even now, 10 years covenant is properly implemented by our local authorities, later, to undo the untold harm done to the British Army GPs, jobcentres and the others involved in looking after personnel and their families who have been affected? our armed forces. Just yesterday, I think, we published the annual report on the covenant and its operation. Michael Fallon: As I have said, I will certainly look at what support was provided to the soldiers against whom Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): My right hon. Friend the allegations were made and whether we can improve is, of course, right that we must hold our servicemen to our procedures in that respect. They do now, as of the highest possible standards. He will remember that today, have the knowledge that those allegations turned by April 2004 the detention of people in that region was out to be completely untrue, but I think the House will already a point of controversy, but by then—when the agree that it should not have taken 10 years and all this Defence Committee visited Shaibah in April 2004—it money for the truth to emerge. was clear that any deficiencies had been seriously gripped Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): May I remind the by the chain of command. When we hold ourselves to House of just how difficult it is for a soldier in combat such high standards, it is particularly outrageous that to change within milliseconds from a duty to kill the the consequences of what perhaps happened to Baha enemy to a duty to protect the enemy under the Geneva Mousa and the trials that then followed have been conventions? I am extremely proud that our soldiers thoroughly and unscrupulously abused by extension by from both the two infantry battalions concerned have the representatives of these people. My right hon. Friend acted so professionally on this occasion and I am very has made absolutely clear what actions he expects the pleased by the outcome of this report. I thank the judge Solicitors Regulation Authority to take, and may I tell and I am very happy for the British Army. him that I absolutely agree with that? Michael Fallon: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who, Michael Fallon: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. The of course, brings to this House very direct experience of events investigated by Sir Thayne were from 10 years the battlefield and the instant decisions that have to be ago, just at the beginning of some of the hardest taken on it. He has particular knowledge of the obligation fighting in Helmand, and it is noteworthy that right on our soldiers—which they accept gladly—to do their from the beginning the procedures were being examined very best, when the battle is over, for the wounded and and were improved. They have certainly improved for those detained. significantly over the 10 years. Mr Speaker: I think the hon. Member for Beckenham On the solicitors involved, as I have told the House, (Bob Stewart) was asking the Secretary of State to there is now an investigation into both firms by the agree with him, and the Secretary of State did agree SRA, but I think that before we see the result of that with him. The hon. Gentleman is therefore now, I am investigation the very least the lawyers involved in this sure, doubly happily. case can do is apologise to the soldiers—and, indeed, to the taxpayer. Bob Stewart: I am, indeed, Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker: We are grateful. Several hon. Members rose— Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab): I speak as someone Mr Speaker: Order. May I just point out to the House who served in Iraq in both 2003 and 2004. While any that questions thus far have been on the full side, very mistreatment of detainees is completely unacceptable understandably as colleagues have wished to express —the Secretary of State has referred to procedural their indignation about the matters concerned? I am changes that have been made—is it not the case that the keen to accommodate all remaining questioners, but I 1417 Al-Sweady Inquiry Report17 DECEMBER 2014 Al-Sweady Inquiry Report 1418 simply advise the House that there are two very heavily that information to be brought back to the United subscribed Opposition day debates to follow, before Kingdom, so that when these allegations are made, they which, of course, there is a ten-minute rule motion, and can be quickly and properly investigated. I should be grateful if colleagues would tailor their contributions accordingly. Mr Stephen O’Brien (Eddisbury) (Con): On behalf of all Members, I thank the Secretary of State for the Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): I thank outstanding tone and substance of the statement. I the Secretary of State for his statement. He will be hope the Solicitors Regulation Authority will restore aware of allegations of wrongdoing in relation to Northern some standing to the profession of which I am a member, Ireland back in the 1970s, where men were tortured and as we are all ashamed of the actions of certain members detained without charge. What actions will the UK of it in the background. Will he discuss with the Foreign Government now take to redress the imbalance in relation Secretary and the Home Secretary whether there has to that, which has been identified as involving hooded been an examination of those organisations, including men being subjected to the five techniques of torture? some charities, to which the Government continue to give funds, and which use that money to instruct solicitors Michael Fallon: I understand the significance of this or to front actions against the Government or our issue in Northern Ireland. It is not, of course, the armed forces? subject of this report, but I know it is part of the Michael Fallon: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend discussions into the past that are now being conducted. for his earlier comment, and I will certainly take forward I hope that will soon will be resolved, but the hon. Lady his suggestion that that aspect should be investigated too. is, quite reasonably, tempting me into areas outside my particular field. John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): Will the Secretary of State expand on the answer that he Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Will my right hon. just gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley Friend suggest to the Lord Chancellor that, when the Central (Dan Jarvis)? What assurances can he give to SRA concludes its investigation, the Lord Chancellor the public that not only will the recommendations result comes to the House to make a statement, so that the in the protection and humane treatment of detainees, SRA knows that the eyes of Parliament are going to be but that our armed forces will get protection when they on its conduct of this investigation, and not least the need to be able to operate effectively in very difficult question of how the firms of solicitors got their clients? circumstances where lives are at risk? There are suggestions that they were paying agents to go around Iraq to drum up business, often not knowing Michael Fallon: On the first point, Sir Thayne Forbes who their clients were. This seems to me to be yet himself has accepted that some of the procedures involved another issue that needs to be properly investigated by have already been improved. Corrections have been the SRA. made and the procedures are now operating far better than in the very early years 10 years ago, but the hon. Michael Fallon: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend Gentleman makes an important point. There is a balance raising that, and I hope it will be. to be struck between the obligations that we ask our soldiers to accept when they are involved in very dangerous Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): As a former special tasks, particularly on the battlefield. That is why I am envoy on human rights to Iraq, I am particularly pleased concerned about the encroachment of other kinds of that we put ourselves in the dock, we answered the law on what is already a satisfactory basis of law—the allegations, and we were not guilty of most of them. law of armed conflict and our own domestic law. The reputation of the British Government and British Mr Henry Bellingham (North West Norfolk) (Con): forces is very high indeed in Iraq, and this incident has Further to the excellent question from my right hon. not detracted in any way from the strong feelings and and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), admiration people in Iraq have for Britain and its a truly dreadful abuse of the legal system has caused forces. The MOD has made changes because there were untold stress to our loyal troops. Is there an argument some instances of ill-treatment. What precisely are these for a civil claim against the two lawyers? Does my right changes and how can the Secretary of State assure us hon. Friend agree that the two law firms in question and that they will result in such ill-treatment not happening the lawyers involved should have their practice certificates again? suspended, pending the SRA inquiry? Michael Fallon: I agree with the right hon. Lady Michael Fallon: On the first question, I lack the legal about the reputation of our troops; I heard that for expertise to comment on whether a civil claim would myself on my visits to Baghdad and Irbil. They did an have a chance of success. On the practice certificates of impressively good job in Iraq. the two firms, that is a matter for the Solicitors Regulation I hope, Mr Speaker, you will also allow me to make a Authority. correction. I think I misspoke a moment ago: I referred Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland to Helmand. I am afraid that was the pressure of West) (Lab): I was interested to hear Sir Thayne Forbes making this statement. I of course meant to refer to the say that the reason for gathering the bodies of the early years of fighting in Iraq. combatants was Improvements have been made to the procedures, “to see if there was amongst them an individual, known by the and there are important recommendations, particularly codename Bravo 1, who was suspected of having been involved in about the retrieval and archiving of information to the murder of the six Royal Military Policemen in Majar Al Kabir make it easier to find out exactly what happened and for in June 2003.” 1419 Al-Sweady Inquiry Report17 DECEMBER 2014 Al-Sweady Inquiry Report 1420

[Mrs Sharon Hodgson] £31 million, but that of course is not the total cost. Can he give us a figure for the total cost, including the costs The Defence Secretary will know that my constituent, before the public inquiry? Does this come out of the Corporal Simon Miller, was among the Red Caps murdered MOD’s budget or the Ministry of Justice’s budget? in that massacre. Does he therefore agree with me that How many ships, planes and service personnel have we the attempt to identify Bravo 1 was justified? Can he tell lost as a result of those firms taking this money? us whether the suspect in question was indeed identified that day? Michael Fallon: I cannot give the hon. Gentleman the figures for the earlier costs. The figure of £31 million is Michael Fallon: As I understand it—I am open to specifically for the public inquiry. As he said, that is a correction—all the detainees were revealed to have been huge and unacceptable amount. It comes directly from insurgents. One of the things that the inquiry has thrown the defence budget and he is right—it could otherwise up is the distinction between general interrogation and have been spent on providing more equipment for our what is called tactical questioning, where people need troops and on many other things that people might have very quickly to get as much information as they can in regarded as having a higher priority. order to save lives or to prevent further bloodshed on the battlefield. It is that distinction that Sir Thayne Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): discusses when he comes to the various procedures. As I The Secretary of State may recall that in 2004 a number understand it, in terms of the very specific identification of nationalist MPs gave £14,000 of taxpayers’ money to on that day, it did not take place. that law firm for an earlier case. Does he think there is merit in the MOD raising this with the Independent David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): We are the Parliamentary Standards Authority to ensure that only country in the world that pays legal aid to sue our own nationalist MPs never again squander taxpayers’ money Army. We then pay millions to defend our Army in those on those ambulance-chasers? cases. Public Interest Lawyers has made over £1 million a year from such cases in each of the past four years. Is Michael Fallon: I do not recall that, but perhaps I there a realistic opportunity for us to get some of that could look into it and get back to the hon. Gentleman money back? Will my right hon. Friend assure the on that specific point. House that if there is, he will go after it as best he can? Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): I welcome the Michael Fallon: We all regret the amount of time and clarity and the robustness of the statement. On dealing the cost of this inquiry, but I am still proud to live in a with the aftermath of a battlefield situation and the country where these things can be fully investigated. It handling of prisoners, the Secretary of State has mentioned has taken far too long and cost far too much money, but on a couple of occasions that one of the lessons learned I would rather the truth came out, however painful it relates to data and intelligence gathering from the battlefield. has been. On the recovery of costs, as I said, we are Are there further lessons to be put in place in training looking at whether some of the costs involved in the or procedures? earlier judicial review claim can now be recouped. Michael Fallon: There are a number of recommendations Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): One question that which we want to study in detail. I have made it clear to has not yet been raised relates to the asymmetric nature the House that I accept the principle and the intent that of so much modern warfare. When our troops go into lie behind them. We have to work through some of the battle, more often than not it is not against another practicalities—for example, video recording and how nation state that observes international law and the that would work in a situation very close to the battlefield. Geneva convention, but against irregulars who do not I will, of course, come back to the House with my observe the rule of law. This must put our soldiers in the detailed conclusions within a few weeks, I hope. heat of battle under immense psychological pressure. Will the Secretary of State reassure me that the lessons Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): I commend from this report will be fed into the way our soldiers are the Secretary of State on an extremely well-judged trained, which has enabled them to maintain very high statement, in which I believe he spoke not just on behalf standards when fighting against people who do not of his Department, but on behalf of the whole House. maintain the same standards against them? What more can be done to get the clear message out— particularly to communities and individuals, among Michael Fallon: That is already part of the training whom I would count myself, who vehemently opposed that our service men and women now undergo, but the the Iraq war in 2003—that British troops in Iraq did not hon. Gentleman makes an important point. The House torture or murder,? should wonder whether the Taliban or ISIL would rush to provide bottled water before they were asked to do so Michael Fallon: That is indeed an important point. I if they had British detainees in their custody, or indeed will consider not only how we might disseminate the if those detainees had survived to be in their custody. findings of this report across the United Kingdom but, as the Chairman of the Select Committee said, what Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): The Secretary more we can do to reassure the Iraqi communities that of State said that the cost of the public inquiry was British troops do not behave in the way that was alleged. 1421 17 DECEMBER 2014 Points of Order 1422

Points of Order Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. A distinguished former British ambassador to Afghanistan said yesterday of our conduct 1.29 pm of that war that it was Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): “a massive act of collective self-deception” On a point of order, Mr Speaker. You will have noticed by politicians and generals. We must recall that 453 brave that I was somewhat disgruntled at being cut off and British soldiers lost their lives in that war. A major told that my question was too long at Prime Minister’s inquiry was promised by the Leader of the House into questions. I take everyone who visits me at the House of the war and into why we went into Helmand in the Commons to see the picture of Speaker Lenthall. I belief that not a shot would be fired. Is it not essential know that it is difficult to apply a principle to all cases that we should hold that inquiry before we contemplate proportionately, but will you find the time to meet me to sending more British soldiers to risk their lives in foreign discuss the fact that I do not believe that the principle of lands? defending the ability of Back Benchers to ask questions of the Executive was upheld proportionately in all cases Mr Speaker: The hon. Gentleman is a wily operator if today? ever there was one. I think he knows that his question was directed not at me but at the Secretary of State for Mr Speaker: I am extremely grateful to the hon. Defence and at tomorrow’s Official Report. In that Gentleman for his point of order. I say in response that respect, he has achieved his objective. He has made his the Speaker does not refuse to see hon. or right hon. point and it will be recorded; it has also been heard by Members. If a Member wishes to see the Speaker, the those on the Treasury Bench. Speaker will be happy to see that Member at a mutually convenient time. I say in the very gentlest way to the hon. Gentleman, first, that the Chair has to be the judge John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): On a of whether a question is too long. With the greatest of point of order, Mr Speaker. Eugene Lukjanenko-Soifertis respect, no Member can be judge in his own cause. is a concert pianist. I have here a copy of the draft Secondly, I intend no discourtesy to him, but he was in agenda of the European Parliament committee on petitions, my view—and I have to make the judgment, not he—taking dated 11 November. At item 15, Mr Lukjanenko-Soifertis too long to get to the gravamen of his question. I say petitioned the committee. I have attempted to table an very kindly to him that he ought not immediately to early-day motion referring to what happened at that think, “Where did the Chair go wrong?” but perhaps to petitions committee— think, “Where did I go wrong and how might I do better?” But of course I will happily see him— Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman will be [Interruption.] I am not debating the matter with him aware that I cannot know what he is about to say, but I now. I am telling him, in a very gentle and understated should like to establish this point. I hope that he is not way, what the position is. With that statement, the hon. seeking to use the device of a point of order to say what Gentleman will have to rest content. We will leave it he would have said if he had gone ahead in the way that there. I was advised he should not do—[Interruption.] He has a smile on his face, and this is occasioning gentle and Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con): On a point of wry amusement in the House. I understand that, but it order, Mr Speaker. This morning it has been announced would be quite disorderly and improper if he were to that Rev. Libby Lane is to become the Bishop of Stockport, use a point of order in that way. I am sure that he is not and therefore the first woman bishop of the Church of going to try to do that—is he? England. At a time when there are more women in work than ever before and more women taking leadership John Hemming: No. I do not think that I have been positions, I am sure that the whole House will want to told not to refer to the fact that Mr Lukjanenko-Soifertis take a moment to welcome such an important first step is a concert pianist or to the agenda. I have, however, towards ensuring that the extraordinary talents of the been told not to refer to what happened at the European 1,700 women clergy in the Church of England are Parliament’s petitions committee, despite the fact that it recognised and used to the full. is available on the internet and can be looked at very Mr Graham Brady (Altrincham and Sale West) (Con): easily. I am not allowed to refer to what happened in a Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. I warmly motion. I would therefore like to ask my first question endorse my right hon. Friend’s point of order. Rev. of the Speaker. If I were to come here with a copy of the Libby Lane is currently the vicar of St Peter’s in Hale in minutes of that petitions committee meeting, would it my constituency, an office that she has conducted with be in order for me to refer to their contents? Secondly, outstanding ability. She has made a great contribution given that when I tried to table a petition referring to to the community, and I am sure that she will continue the same issue, I was told that it could not be tabled for to do so in her new role as Bishop of Stockport. the same reason of sub judice, will the Speaker please explain why we, uniquely as a jurisdiction, have a rule of Mr Speaker: I thank the right hon. Lady for her point sub judice in respect of petitions and tell me what is of order, and the hon. Gentleman for his follow-up happening about that? point of order. I think that they speak for Members on both sides of the House and throughout it in offering Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the warmest congratulations to Rev. Libby Lane on her his point of order. I say in the most positive of spirits appointment. It is a wonderful and joyous occasion of that his words are his choice and my words, by way of celebration for her and also, I hope, a sign of great and response, must be mine. He sought a waiver of the sub progressive change within the Church. judice resolution from me in connection with a proposed 1423 Points of Order 17 DECEMBER 2014 1424

[Mr Speaker] Women’s Refuges (Provision and Eligibility) early-day motion about a matter before the petitions committee of the European Parliament. Of course I Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order took advice, as colleagues will appreciate, but I was not No. 23) persuaded of the case for such a waiver. Subsequently, it was brought to my attention that another Member, the 1.39 pm hon. Member for Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle), had sought to present a public petition on behalf of the Norman Baker (Lewes) (LD): I beg to move, hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming) That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require provision of that essentially repeated the terms of his proposed women’s refuges in certain areas; to set out requirements of local early-day motion. I concluded that the presentation of councils relating to women’s refuges; and for connected purposes. a petition was not an appropriate way to circumvent the It is a sad fact of our society that violence against sub judice rule, and was not what the House intended to women is all too common—far too common. Women’s happen when it made its resolution concerning sub Aid estimates that one in four women experiences domestic judice. violence at some point in their lives. I believe that the The right to petition this House is an ancient one. It coalition Government has a good record on this matter, can be an important last resort after all other efforts to and I am pleased to have played a part in delivering address a grievance have been exhausted, but if a case some action, including the creation of domestic violence to which a petition relates is active in the courts, all protection orders, the domestic violence disclosure scheme other avenues have not been exhausted. A petition must and the actions taken to get the police and the Crown seek a remedy that it is within the power of the House Prosecution Service to take matters of domestic violence to grant, and it is hard to see how that requirement far more seriously. I have to say, however, that there is a could be satisfied when the matter in question is actively crucial gap in delivery of these services: the provision of before the courts. In these circumstances, I have taken refuges in our society. The gap has emerged because of the view that a petition should not be received. The hon. local authority budgets, which of course are very Member for Birmingham, Yardley might wish to take challenging, and because some local authorities have this matter up with the Procedure Committee, of which decided that it is appropriate—I do not believe it is—to he is a distinguished ornament—[Laughter.] Thatisa make cuts in refuge provision. In addition, because compliment to the hon. Gentleman. The application of domestic violence has rightly gone up the agenda, we the sub judice rule to public petitions seems to me to be are now seeing more women having the confidence to an appropriate matter for that Committee to consider. come forward to access the services, as is their right, and When people raise points of order, they want a reply that is putting further pressure on the services themselves. and, preferably, some advice from the Chair. In the best Women’s refuges are crucial. They are not just a bed possible spirit, I am advising the hon. Gentleman on a for the night; specialist refuges provide secure constructive way forward under the auspices of that accommodation, usually at a secret address, and a Committee, which is chaired with distinction by the range of specialist and holistic support services. Uprooting hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker). I hope that lives, often including those of children, is a last resort if the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley wants a for women when they feel that nothing else will keep resolution to the matter, he will follow that course. them safe—when there is nowhere else for them to go. Unfortunately, we are seeing challenges to the provision John Hemming: I thank the Speaker for his advice. In of refuges across our country. Since 2010, we have seen fact, the matter is to be discussed in the Procedure a 17% reduction, from 187 to 155, in the number of Committee later today, which is why I wished to raise specialist domestic violence refuges. Nearly a third of this point of order to clarify the issue specifically in referrals to refuges across the country were turned respect of petitions before that meeting took place. down last year because of a lack of space, and on one day in 2013, 155 women and 103 children were turned Mr Speaker: The hon. Gentleman will have his own away from the first refuge they called because there was rationale for wanting to advertise the matter here first, no space for them. That is quite unacceptable and and I make no complaint about that, but I hope he will nobody in this House can be satisfied with that situation. accept that we have to leave it there for today. This is not simply about the number of refuges; it is also about the way in which local authorities are ROYAL ASSENT commissioning services for the refuges. According to the Women’s Aid “Gold Book” of domestic violence Mr Speaker: I have to notify the House, in accordance services, since 2011 there has been a 30% reduction in with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that Her Majesty has the number of refuge services listed saying that they can signified her Royal Assent to the following Acts: accept emergency overnight referrals and a 28% reduction Childcare Payments Act 2014 in the number of domestic violence services that have Wales Act 2014 24-hour staffing. So the commissioning practices of local authorities are also severely affecting those who Taxation of Pensions Act 2014 need to access the services. Buckinghamshire County Council (Filming on Highways) Act 2014. One particularly pernicious and unhelpful development is that some local authorities have decided, for reasons best known to themselves, no doubt, that they should impose conditions on which women can access the services. Some authorities are imposing “local connection” 1425 Women’s Refuges (Provision and 17 DECEMBER 2014 Women’s Refuges (Provision and 1426 Eligibility) Eligibility) requirements, but the last place that someone who has East Sussex county council area there were plans to cut been subject to domestic violence wants to be is very refuge provision. Thankfully, they have been headed off local. They need to be somewhere safe, which is not next for the time being, but I imagine such plans will come to where the perpetrator of violence may be. Local back, both there and elsewhere, unless there is a statutory connections are absolutely not what we need to see in duty to make such provision. refuge provision. Thirdly, I want the Government to issue statutory Between April and October 2014, four local authorities guidance, which would, for example, ban the local issued tenders that included local connection rules saying connection criterion and do other more sensible work that 70% to 80% of the refuge spaces in the service have on how local authorities are commissioning services. to be reserved for women and children who live in the I welcome the £10 million lifeline the Government local area. Four local authority tenders for domestic has provided to help refuge provision in the short term, violence services run by a non-specialist organisation which was announced in late November. I had pressed did not include refuge provision, which is the second for it inside government when I was in the Home Office, problem we face in commissioning. Commissioning but I am sure Ministers recognise that it is only a stop practices tend to exclude specialist provision and appeal gap and that a more permanent solution is required. I to much larger companies, of a more generalist nature, am concerned that the bidding arrangements that have which sometimes do not understand what they are been put in place require us to go through housing providing and for whom. So the specialist nature of authorities, and that in a two-tier local authority area, provision, which is key to delivery, is also being eroded such as mine, Lewes district council or Wealden district in an unhelpful way. council would have to handle the bid, although the One local authority awarded a tender for refuge refuge provision is handled by East Sussex county council. accommodation to a non-specialist service outside the That seems to make no sense and creates an unnecessary local area, even though the submission from its specialist bureaucratic hurdle. I welcome the fact that the temporary domestic violence service locally was less expensive. stop-gap Government money prevents the geographical Local authorities are not only failing to provide sufficiently restrictions I have referred to as being very unhelpful, for women who need to access the services, but losing and I note that the commissioning help which I helped money unnecessarily for the council tax payer in some to initiate when I was a Home Office Minister is already cases. In the worst cases, women are being refused being given to local authorities. access to refuges because they do not have a local The Government has done a lot to help women who connection and they are then given emergency are subject to domestic violence in our society—as the accommodation at council expense while beds sometimes Home Secretary knows, they get a very clear steer that it lie empty in those refuges—that cannot make sense. is not acceptable. It is a great pity that, having done My Bill would require the Government to set a such a great deal of work, there is one gap in provision, minimum network standard across the country on the which is so crucial: the fact that local authority cuts are number of refuges and by local authority area, and it leading to a reduction in refuge provision or to bad would end, with immediate effect, any further closures commissioning. There is a gaping hole that needs to be of refuges by a local authority. A woman who needs to filled. My Bill closes that gap. access a refuge must be able to do so; we cannot have Question put and agreed to. women turned away in the way that has been happening Ordered, recently. That Norman Baker, Jenny Willott, Caroline Lucas, Secondly, my Bill would make it a statutory duty on Dr Julian Huppert, Sarah Champion, Dr Sarah Wollaston, local authorities to provide such services. We are seeing Annette Brooke and Mr Jeremy Browne presented the cuts and we will in the future, as cuts are coming down Bill. the track whoever is in government after the next election, Norman Baker accordingly presented the Bill. and local authorities are bound to be looking at refuge Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on provision as part of their savings. I know that in my Friday 23 January 2015, and to be printed (Bill 141). 1427 17 DECEMBER 2014 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 1428 Sector Size Criteria) weeks ago. Warren Todd is 15 years old. He has a rare Opposition Day chromosomal disorder called Potocki Shaffer syndrome, which affects the development of his bones, brain and [11TH ALLOTTED DAY] other organs, and means that he suffers from epilepsy, autism, skeletal problems and learning disabilities. For most of his life, Warren has been cared for by his Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social grandparents, Sue and Paul Rutherford. They have Sector Size Criteria) dedicated their lives to giving him a decent childhood and, by enabling him to live at home instead of residential Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): care, they are saving us, the taxpayer, thousands of Before I call Rachel Reeves to move the motion, I can pounds every week. inform the House that the Speaker has selected the We should celebrate and applaud the incredible amendment in the name of the Prime Minister. contribution that these people are making to Warren’s life and to our country, but instead this Government 1.48 pm have deducted £60 a month from their housing benefit, Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab): I beg to move, because they live in a bungalow with three bedrooms, one of which is deemed a spare bedroom, chargeable That this House believes that the housing benefit social sector size criteria, otherwise known as the bedroom tax, should be under the bedroom tax. They asked the Prime Minister abolished with immediate effect. to visit them in their home and see why they needed that room. Warren’s grandfather said: Today, Members of this House have a chance and a choice: a chance to put right one of the worst injustices “If he”— we have seen under this unfair, out-of-touch Government; the Prime Minister— and a choice to make about where they stand on the “saw how we were living he would end the tax straight away. But question of how we treat some of the most vulnerable of course he hasn’t been to see us”. and disadvantaged members of our society. In just a few hours, we could vote to abolish and repeal the I have seen this “spare bedroom”, which is crammed bedroom tax, an extraordinarily cruel and unfair policy with special equipment for Warren that has hit half a million low-income households, two and a sofa bed for respite carers to use. There is nothing thirds of them including a disabled member and two remotely “spare” about it. Without it, the Rutherfords fifths of them including children, with a charge of more could not possibly do the incredible job they do of than £14 a week, on average, which most cannot afford looking after Warren at home. to pay, simply because they have been allocated by a The bungalow has been fitted with a track system and council or a housing association a home that the hoist to help Warren into the bath, his bed, and on to Government now decide has too many rooms. the sofa. It would cost a fortune to replace and reinstall One week before Christmas we have a chance to bring it if they had to move to another property. There are hope and relief to hundreds of thousands of people countless other cases like that of people whose lives have who are struggling to stay in their home, pay the bills been turned upside down by this punitive and indefensible and put food on the table by scrapping this cruel and tax on bedrooms. punitive tax on bedrooms, which is yet another example of Tory welfare waste. The Minister for Disabled People (Mr Mark Harper): Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): There is a slight I am listening very carefully to the hon. Lady, and I groundhog day quality to this debate. I am sure that we think she would want the House to have all the facts. have had an identical debate before. Indeed, I was I read the details of her visit, but is it not the case that thinking of making the same speech that I made last that family receive a discretionary housing payment, for time in this debate, and wondering whether anyone exactly the reasons that we put this policy in place? would be interested. There is something that I do not They have not suffered any financial penalty from this understand, and have never understood. The previous policy at all, so perhaps she should fill the House in and Government introduced exactly the same policy for give a full picture of the case, rather than tell a partial tenants in the private rented sector on housing benefit, story? so why is it thought appropriate to have that policy for tenants on housing benefit in the private rented sector, Rachel Reeves: I was going to come to the discretionary but not appropriate for tenants in social housing on housing payment, but I shall discuss it now. Leeds, where housing benefit? I am a Member of Parliament, received £1.9 million in discretionary housing payment in 2013-14, but it spent Rachel Reeves: If the right hon. Gentleman participated £2.27 million, and the Government made up the shortfall. in previous debates on this matter, he would know that In 2014-15, Leeds city council has been given just the rule for private housing was not retrospective, so it £2.05 million, and has been told that there is no option did not affect people who were already living in their to apply for more. The council has put in £0.35 million accommodation. In addition, in the private sector there of its own money, but spending to date is forecast to is no security of tenure, which has hitherto existed in exceed what it has set aside, including that extra money. the social rented sector. The point about discretionary housing payment is that The numbers affected by this indefensible policy are there is not enough money to cover all the cases, and shocking, but it is individuals and families whom we city councils and councils across the country have had must keep in mind. I want to tell the House about a to use their own money to make up the Government young man I visited at his home in west Wales a few shortfall. 1429 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 17 DECEMBER 2014 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 1430 Sector Size Criteria) Sector Size Criteria) By its very nature, discretionary housing payment is not there? In Brighton, 88% of those affected have not just that—discretionary—and people only find out on a been able to move because there is nowhere for them to year-by-year basis whether they will receive the money. move to. Four hundred households are in arrears, and People who receive it have no certainty that they will be in over half of those homes there are people with able to stay in their house next year or the year after that. disabilities. If the hon. Gentleman can give certainty to the Rutherfords and the thousands of families across the country who Rachel Reeves: I shall come on to statistics for one receive discretionary housing payment that they will local authority to make exactly the same point. receive it next year and the year after that, that would be extremely welcome, but I do not think that he can do so. Several hon. Members rose—

Mr Harper: The discretionary housing payment guidance Rachel Reeves: I shall make a little progress before specifically makes provision for councils to make longer- taking interventions. term awards in cases in which it takes longer for people to adjust to the policy.My right hon. Friend the Chancellor We have discussed the needs of carers, but we must of the Exchequer set out the extra money for DHP for also consider people who need safe or sanctuary rooms the next financial year to give councils that financial to protect themselves against the threat of domestic certainty. We have indeed done what the hon. Lady said. violence. There is the woman whose case is now being heard by the High Court, and whose situation my hon. Rachel Reeves: Well, my own council has received less Friend the Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison money from the Government this year compared with Seabeck) tried to address with her ten-minute rule Bill. last year, so some people who received DHP last year Others have kept a room for sons and daughters serving will not receive it this year. Leeds city council says that in the armed forces when they are home on leave. In The there have been more applications for DHP this year. Daily Mirror this morning we read about the shocking My understanding is that the overspend last year was case of Maureen Bland who was forced to move out of £3 million, so people are applying for DHP but are just her home to avoid the bedroom tax after her son lost his not getting it. life serving our country in Afghanistan. Quite frankly, people like that should not be forced to pay the bedroom tax because of such grief and tragedy. Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): One of the most ridiculous things about the tax is the fact The bedroom tax has been cited by the Trussell Trust that local authorities and local housing authorities were and others as a key driver behind the shocking growth told that they had to build houses with two bedrooms. in food bank use under this Government. A recent There are no one-bedroom houses in my constituency in-depth study published by the Trussell Trust, along for rent, so how can people move in those circumstances? with Oxfam, the Church of England and the Child Poverty Action Group, found that at one food bank, Rachel Reeves: I have similar issues in my constituency, 19% of users had been hit by the bedroom tax, many of where there are 26 blocks of high-rise flats that are them having applied unsuccessfully for DHP. We will almost all two-bedroom flats. The council tries not to have an opportunity to vote on a motion on food banks house families in that accommodation, and tries to put later this afternoon, but Members can make a start in single people in there, because there is a feeling that a this debate by voting to repeal the cruel bedroom tax, high-rise flat is not always the most appropriate place which is one of the key causes of the food poverty crisis for a family to live. Many single people who have been we see in our country today. put in two-bedroom flats in high-rise buildings have been forced to pay the bedroom tax through no fault of Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): My hon. Friend their own. is making a powerful case. Perhaps the cruellest element of the bedroom tax is the fact that the stress and Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): anguish it causes is making ill people even more ill. My hon. Friend has rightly raised the issues for carers such as the Rutherfords. Is it not the case that 60,000 Rachel Reeves: People affected by the bedroom tax carers should be exempt from the bedroom tax? If are facing impossible decisions that, frankly, no one anyone should be exempt, it is unpaid family carers. All should have to make: whether to pay the bills or put kinds of things have been said to suggest that they are, food on the table; or whether to pay the rent, at the risk but they are not, and it is causing them hardship. If the of getting into debt, or risk losing their home. We have Minister really believes that the Government want to seen the evidence from the Trussell Trust and the Child fund people such as carers through the discretionary Poverty Action Group, but we do not have to turn to payment, they could do that now: they could exempt that report to see the devastating impact of this vicious carers by regulation. policy; we need only look at the evaluation commissioned by the Government themselves. It was conducted by the Rachel Reeves: My hon. Friend tabled a motion to centre for housing and planning research at Cambridge exempt the 60,000 carers affected by the bedroom tax, university and slipped out this summer, when the but the Government blocked it, which was an unwise Government no doubt hoped no one would notice. Its and disappointing decision. findings are clear and damning.

Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): The hon. Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab): London Lady is making a powerful case. Does she agree that as is not the area worst affected by the bedroom tax. In well as being cruel and unfair the policy is simply not fact, regional variation is one of the striking things about working on its own terms, because the properties are it, because there is more overcrowding in the south and 1431 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 17 DECEMBER 2014 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 1432 Sector Size Criteria) Sector Size Criteria) [Ms Karen Buck] Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): Given the predictability of this and the absence of small houses more under-occupation in the north. Despite that, we to move to, is it not obvious that the objective was have 860 households currently affected by it. Does my simply to tax the poor for being poor? It has nothing to hon. Friend share my astonishment that in recent years do with moving to smaller houses; it is about punishing councils and housing associations, such as Westminster people who are poor because of the bankers’ errors. city council, have sold 240 one-bedroom properties, There is no other rationale. thus removing the very opportunities people need to downsize in order to avoid the bedroom tax? Rachel Reeves: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. Rachel Reeves: That is a really important point. Six This afternoon the amendment signed by the Deputy months after the restrictions on housing benefit had Prime Minister aims to remove our call on the Government been applied, only 4.5% of those affected had moved to abolish the bedroom tax immediately, and instead into smaller homes within the social sector, despite that merely “notes” that the Liberal Democrats have come being, as the report put it, up with some “proposals”to change the way the bedroom “a key aim of the policy”. tax is implemented. We would not be supporting the The vast majority of claimants said that they were amendment, because “noting”the latest Liberal Democrat unable to move because of their need to remain close to “proposals” is not going to pay anyone’s rent or keep work, services or support networks, or simply because, anyone in their home. What matters in this House is like the Rutherfords, they needed the room that the how Members vote, how they use the power entrusted Government had decided was surplus to their requirements. to them by their constituents. What we on the Opposition side and people watching the debate will “note” is where The Government’s evaluation also found that a shocking Members took their stand when they had an opportunity 60% of those affected were in arrears. Social landlords to make a difference. were beginning eviction proceedings in some cases, even though they knew that their tenants could simply not afford the rent increases. Most devastating of all are the Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): Will my hon. official findings on how tenants have struggled to pay Friend also note that the reason we are having this the shortfall. The evaluation reported debate is exactly the one just given by my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies)? This is “widespread concern that those who were paying were making about taxing the poor, because the Liberal Democrats cuts to other household essentials or incurring other debts in supported not only the bedroom tax, but the cut in the order to pay their rent”. rate of tax for millionaires, giving their friends a £100,000 It reported that 57% of claimants had said that they hand-back last year. had cut back on household essentials. There are not many of them here, but let me say a few Rachel Reeves: Yes, and it tells us all we need to know words about the Liberal Democrats, who took the about the priorities of this Government when people publication of the independent evaluation as an opportunity earning more than £150,000 got a tax cut while another to try to wash their hands of this notorious policy. The group of people, two thirds of whom are disabled, got a Deputy Prime Minister said he had changed his mind £14 increase in their rent that they simply cannot afford. after seeing the evidence in the report that most people What we will note is that there would be no bedroom were unable to move in order to avoid the tax, but what tax without the Liberal Democrats. They joined the did he expect? Did he expect that half a million households Tories in the Lobby time and again to vote it through, would find new, smaller, affordable homes and that and they combined with the Tories again and again to everyone would live happily ever after? block Labour’s attempts to repeal it. The reality is that it was always obvious that that was In conclusion, the bedroom tax is a cruel and unfair not going to happen. The Government’s own impact tax that is hitting around half a million low-income assessment, published in June 2012, assumed that no households. It has left vulnerable people feeling insecure one would move and warned that if they tried there in their own homes through no fault of their own. would “be a mismatch between available accommodation and the needs Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): The hon. Lady says of tenants” that ours are mere proposals, but in fact they are meaning that encapsulated pretty much word for word in my Affordable Homes Bill, which of course has the support of the “in many areas...there are insufficient properties to enable tenants to move to accommodation of an appropriate size”. House. Surely that is the route to take. What we need to do is find a consensus. If she is really as concerned Indeed, the very report that the Deputy Prime Minister about this issue as she claims to be, she should apply cited as the “trigger” for his attempted U-turn points today’s motion to the private rented sector in the same out that the smaller number of moves that had taken way as it would apply to the social rented sector. place were actually “higher than some had expected” Rachel Reeves: If the hon. Gentleman is so serious in the Department for Work and Pensions. The utter about doing the right thing, I hope that he will join us in disingenuousness of the Deputy Prime Minister’s attempts the Lobby this evening, because “noting proposals” will to excuse his collaboration with the Tories on this issue not pay the rent or keep people in their homes. Only by once again confirms that we simply cannot trust a single voting with Labour this afternoon can Members do the word he says. right thing and repeal this unfair and cruel tax. 1433 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 17 DECEMBER 2014 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 1434 Sector Size Criteria) Sector Size Criteria) The bedroom tax has pushed many into debt and to her policy and how her proposed ways of paying for it resort to food banks, and it has brought others to the are not going to work, I think the House will probably point of eviction and homelessness. It is wreaking havoc realise exactly why that was. Today’s debate speaks with local housing policies and with the finances of volumes not so much about what Labour Members say social housing providers, creating extra costs and perverse but about what they do not say. consequences on all sides. It is yet another example of Tory welfare waste—wasting time and energy even as it Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): Will the fails to deliver the savings that were promised. Minister give way? The bedroom tax will be remembered for years to come as a signature policy of this unfair, out-of-touch Mr Harper: No, I will not. I have barely started my Government. Today we have given Members on both speech, and I want to make sure that I finish in the 20 sides of the House an opportunity to come together minutes or so that the occupant of the Chair indicated. and consign this cruel policy to the history books. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry However, if Government Members do not do the right McCarthy) says from a sedentary position that the thing and join us to abolish it this afternoon, I pledge shadow Secretary of State gave way. She gave way that the first thing I will do if I am Secretary of State generously to Members on her own side of the House next May is cancel the bedroom tax, removing that but not very generously to Members on our side. I am symbol of the injustice we have seen under this Government. happy to give way when I have uttered more than one That is a fully funded commitment that we will pay for sentence. without extra borrowing by closing tax loopholes and Today of all days, Labour would rather talk about reversing the tax breaks with which this Government anything than the positive jobs figures that we are have favoured the wealthy. seeing. More people are in work than ever before—up That will be a signal of how different things will be by 590,000 on the year and up by 1.7 million since 2010. under a Labour Government: dealing with the deficit in More women are in work than ever before— up by a fairer way and treating those who work hard to care 300,000. More disabled people are in work—up by over for the most disadvantaged and vulnerable members of a quarter of a million. our society with the decency and dignity they deserve—so different from what Government Members have done. Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab) rose— For hundreds of thousands of families across the country, that change cannot come soon enough. Mr Harper: Labour Members do not like to hear this, Several hon. Members rose—[Interruption.] do they? Let me just finish this good news on today’s jobs figures and then I will be happy to give way to the Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): hon. Lady. More people are in private sector jobs than Have you got something to say, Mr de Bois? [Interruption.] ever before—up by nearly 2.2 million since 2010. At the No, you have not. same time, unemployment has fallen, youth unemployment has fallen, long-term unemployment has fallen, and the Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): I will have plenty number of people on the main out-of-work benefits is to say later. at its lowest for 24 years. Madam Deputy Speaker: In that case, you should Sheila Gilmore: Any suggestion that any Labour Member stand up and indicate at the normal time, rather than does not welcome the fall in unemployment is simply shouting from a sedentary position. not the case. In relation to this debate, is the Minister not aware that people in work can be, and are, subject to 2.9 pm the bedroom tax? The Minister for Disabled People (Mr Mark Harper): I beg to move an amendment, to leave out from “House” Mr Harper: I am very familiar with the way that the to end and add: policy works, and that is why it is perfectly relevant for “regrets that the Government took over a housing benefit bill me to point out how many people are in work. I did not which was out of control, and without reform would have been say that Opposition Members did not welcome the fall more than £26 billion in 2014-15; notes that the reforms the in unemployment; I simply pointed out that they do not Government has implemented have brought housing benefit spending like talking about it. It is not the only thing they do not under control and helped to tackle over-crowding and better manage housing stock; further notes that the Coalition has protected like talking about. vulnerable groups through £165 million of discretionary housing payments in 2014; notes that, following the interim evaluation of Several hon. Members rose— the policy, the part of the Coalition led by the Deputy Prime Minister has proposed reforms to introduce other formal exemptions Mr Harper: It is very cynical that Labour has chosen to the policy, including where claimants have not been made a reasonable alternative offer of accommodation; and believes that on their Opposition day to have a debate that is contrived the Opposition’s failure to support the Government’s wider welfare to scare people, instead of welcoming the record reforms, including the wholesale abolition of this policy, is financially employment figures. I say that because the hon. Member unsustainable, and would put at risk savings of nearly £50 billion for Leeds West referenced a specific case, which she went over the present Parliament, as well as leaving people languishing through in considerable detail, but omitted to mention in over-crowded accommodation.” the very significant point that the family in question get I am very pleased to move the amendment. It is a discretionary housing payment and so suffer no financial interesting that the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel penalty. When I intervened on her, she still would not Reeves) spent so little time on how she was going to pay confirm that I was in fact right and she had omitted to for this policy. When I explain a little later the costs of share that information with the House. 1435 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 17 DECEMBER 2014 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 1436 Sector Size Criteria) Sector Size Criteria) Several hon. Members rose— -bedroom homes is up from 17% to 20%. The policy is having the desired effect in terms of the building of new Mr Harper: If one is going to lay out a case for the homes. House, one should share all of it. Trading individual cases and trying to politicise them is not the right thing Several hon. Members rose— to do; we should discuss the policy. I could cite a number of cases where the spare room subsidy has led Mr Harper: Let me make a little more progress. to a positive position for someone’s housing, but that is It is also worth putting on the record that, when not a very sensible way of proceeding. If one is going to Labour Members were in power, they increased spending lay out a case, one should lay it out in full and not on a broken welfare system by 60%. They have rejected mislead the House. [Interruption.] every welfare reform that we have implemented. They are seeking immediate abolition of this policy, which Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): restores fairness. As my right hon. Friend the Member Order. The rest of the House might not want to listen to for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry), who is no longer in his the Minister, but I do. If he is going to give way to a place, said, it brings the social sector into line with a Member, he will indicate that to them. Members on policy that Labour Members themselves advocated for both sides of the House should just chill out a little bit. the private rented sector, and it ends the unfairness of Let us hear what the Minister has to say. 820,000 spare rooms being paid for by taxpayers when 250,000 people were living in overcrowded homes and Mr Harper: I am very keen to give way during the 1.7 million were on waiting lists, as was the case when debate, but I am also conscious of the fact that quite a this reform was implemented. The Government are number of Members wish to speak. determined to help those families as well. Numbers on waiting lists have now fallen by a fifth to 1.4 million—the Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I have just been lowest for a decade. prompted about something that I did not hear because of the row. Apparently the Minister said something about misleading the House. Did he accuse the hon. Barbara Keeley rose— Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) of misleading the House? Will he confirm that he did not say that? Mr Harper: I am sure that the hon. Lady will welcome that. Mr Harper: I am very happy to confirm that I do not think that I said it, but if I did, then it is not what I Barbara Keeley: I hate to disappoint the Minister, but meant to say. I was very clear that the hon. Lady was I will not welcome the figures he has quoted. He is telling half a story and was not giving the House all the making a point about fairness. Does he think it is fair facts on which to make a balanced judgment. that 60,000 carers should have to pay the bedroom tax? They do not have spare rooms; they are essential rooms Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab) that they need to sleep in so that they can carry on their rose— caring. It is cruel to keep on repeating that when 60,000 people who are struggling, unpaid, to care, and saving Barbara Keeley rose— the state a lot of money, are not exempt from this cruel tax. Is that fair? Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con) rose— Mr Harper: Someone who has an overnight resident Mr Harper: I have given way to an Opposition Member, carer is exempt from the policy. To deal with particular so I give way to my hon. Friend. circumstances, we have given local authorities the ability to use discretionary housing payments in what they judge Angie Bray: I absolutely appreciate the principle that to be appropriate cases. I am sorry that the hon. Lady we need to match housing to housing need, and we would not welcome the news that waiting lists have fallen certainly need more family-sized houses for larger families. by a fifth to 1.4 million. That is a very welcome statistic, Does my hon. Friend agree, however, that for the spare showing that fewer families are waiting for homes because room subsidy policy to work fairly, as well as effectively, we are now using the housing stock in the social sector there will have to be a sufficient number of one-bedroom more efficiently. properties for those who have to downsize to move into, so that they do not face penalties when they are trying Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): While to do the right thing but cannot? my hon. Friend is on the subject of fairness in the system, does he think it is fair that the Labour-run Mr Harper: My hon. Friend makes a good and sensible council in Leeds has spent almost £3 million on new point. It is worth putting on the record that there are websites, furniture and tarting up meeting rooms rather 1.4 million one-bedroom homes across the social rented than on concessionary payments? sector, with significant turnover. Sixty per cent. of social sector tenants require only one bedroom because they Mr Harper: My hon. Friend makes a good point. are single or childless couples, and local authorities and Local authorities obviously make decisions about how housing associations are now starting to match their they spend money. If they have indeed spent it on the new building more accurately to that profile. Seventy-seven things that he mentioned rather than on assisting families, per cent. of homes approved under the new affordable their voters can make a judgment on that when they housing scheme are one or two-bedroom homes—up come to make these decisions at the appropriate time. from 68% in the last round—and the proportion of one I am glad that he put that on the record. 1437 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 17 DECEMBER 2014 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 1438 Sector Size Criteria) Sector Size Criteria) Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con): Will the Minister of State, I am afraid that when she walked in on day one give way? she would already have a £500 million hole in her funding, and would have to find some other way of funding the Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab) rose— payments. The Government have capped welfare, restored fiscal discipline and seen the first real fall in welfare Mr Slaughter rose— spending for 16 years, in contrast to more unfunded spending commitments and going back to more borrowing, Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab) rose— more spending and more taxing once again.

Mr Harper: Let me make a little more progress and Maria Miller: Does my hon. Friend share my concern then I will give way again. about Opposition Members’ scaremongering, which may Labour’s motion says nothing about the costs of its cause so much fear and concern, particularly among proposal. That is not really a surprise. It is, of course, a parents of disabled children, even though he and his fact that the removal of the spare room subsidy is colleagues have already put in place clear provision to saving money: £490 million in 2013-14; £525 million in make sure that disabled children get the support they 2014-15; and £830 million to date, with savings increasing need? in future years. Abolishing this reform would cost over £500 million a year. The shadow Work and Pensions Mr Harper: My right hon. Friend, who is very familiar Secretary has made an “absolute pledge” to do so, but with this policy area, is absolutely right. We have put in she has no idea of how she is going to fund it. place clear policies for disabled children. As in the case highlighted by the shadow Secretary of State, discretionary Rachel Reeves: We did say, in 2013, how we would housing payments have been put in place specifically for pay for that. There are three different measures. First, cases that are complex and cannot be dealt with under we would reverse the Chancellor’s tax cut for hedge the rules. Ample protection is in place for the families funds announced in the 2013 Budget, which it is estimated who need it. will save £150 million. Secondly, we would reverse the There is no clearer illustration of Labour’s reckless Chancellor’s shares-for-rights scheme, which has opened lack of control than housing benefit. Under the previous up a tax loophole and will lead to £1 billion being lost Government, housing benefit spending increased by to the Exchequer, according to the Office for Budget nearly 50% in real terms, from £16 billion to £23 billion. Responsibility. Thirdly, we would tackle disguised self- If we had not reformed it, spending would have risen to employment in the construction industry, which—again, more than £26 billion this year. We have brought that these are Treasury estimates—will save £380 million. figure down by £2 billion, and last year saw the first That would happen in every single year and more than real-terms fall in housing benefit for a decade. pay for the cost of cancelling the bedroom tax. Geraint Davies rose— Mr Harper: First, it is interesting that the shadow Secretary of State did not bother to share any of that Mr Harper: That is something to welcome, and I am detail with the House in her speech. She was trying to sure the hon. Gentleman will do so. avoid doing so, but I am very pleased that she has put those points on the record. Let us look at the three measures. Geraint Davies: I will respond to that point. Does the Minister accept that 70% of the doubling of housing The first proposal is to ensure that the building trade benefit in the past 10 years has been due to rent rises? pays its fair share of tax, which the hon. Lady said The strategic solution should not be to inflate rents and would raise £380 million. In fact, the Government are housing costs, but to build more houses, which is the already cracking down on the use of intermediaries and opposite of what he is doing. He will end up with contrived contracts, including in construction. The changes housing benefit costs that are higher, not lower, because announced in the autumn statement in 2013 are already of his incompetence. saving more than that amount, so the revenue that Labour says it could raise no longer exists. Mr Harper: With the greatest respect, the period The second proposal, to reinstate the stamp duty during which the housing benefit bill rose so fast, as the reserve tax charge, would place a £160 million charge on hon. Gentleman has just said, was of course when his pensions; the Chancellor did not provide a tax cut for party was in government. He is quite right about the hedge funds. That means that the impact of Labour’s need to build more houses, but housing starts fell to a tax rise would fall on pension savers and retail investors. historical low under Labour. We have actually increased That is the same old Labour—balancing the books on the building of new homes. Nearly 500,000 homes have the backs of pensioners. been built since 2010, and a further 275,000 affordable The last proposal, to end the employee shareholder homes will be built from 2015 to 2020. More affordable scheme, is even better, and Members will want to listen. homes are planned over the next Parliament than in any Labour has pledged to reverse the removal of the spare equivalent period in the past 20 years. The point he room subsidy immediately, but in 2015-16, ending the makes is right, but this Government have absolutely employee shareholder scheme will raise no revenue for dealt with it. Overall, the changes we have made to the Exchequer. housing benefit will save £6 billion during this Parliament. The House can see that the three measures are not The removal of the spare room subsidy is a key part going to pay for the Labour policy. If the country were of the reforms. Despite some outlandish claims about unfortunate enough to have the hon. Lady in the position its effect, it is working. In the interim evaluation, half of so ably occupied by my right hon. Friend the Secretary those affected and unemployed had looked for a job, 1439 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 17 DECEMBER 2014 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 1440 Sector Size Criteria) Sector Size Criteria) [Mr Harper] As we approach the general election, we face a choice. The Opposition talk about welfare waste, but they wasted and one in five of them intended to plan to earn more. £26 billion on botched IT and lost control of welfare It was alleged that the change would move people into spending when they were in government. They also poverty. In fact, the figures show that thousands of wasted the lives of a lot of our constituents. At its peak, those affected have moved into work. there were 5 million people on out-of-work benefits—1 Despite the Opposition’s scaremongering about evictions million for a decade or more—while youth unemployment and arrears, the evidence has been to the contrary. The increased by a half, long-term unemployment doubled latest statistics show—[Interruption.] If we are to have in two years, one in five households were workless and a sensible debate about such matters, it would help if the number of households in which no one had ever people did not make outlandish claims. I listened very worked almost doubled. carefully to the intervention by the hon. Member for Several hon. Members rose— Westminster North (Ms Buck). It is worth remembering that, when we discussed the benefit cap, she said that Mr Harper: I will make some progress, because I am huge damage would be done to the 400,000-plus working keen to allow other Members to speak. households in private rented accommodation. However, We are now seeing record employment. Two thirds of we know from work that we published this week that the rise over the past year has been accounted for by 41% of people affected by the benefit cap are more UK nationals, and 95% of the increase is in full-time likely to go into work. People are doing more to find work. Some 600,000 people have started a job through work, and the policy has actually been very successful. the Work programme. More than 50,000 households In London, where the highest number of people are have had their benefits capped, while 12,000 have moved subject to the benefit cap, very few people have actually into work or are no longer on housing benefit. moved, and those who have moved have not moved great distances. It is small wonder that Labour does not want to talk about the jobs figures, the economy or immigration. As we learnt from the recently released document, Labour’s Ms Buck: Will the Minister give way? approach is, “If you don’t want to talk about something, change the subject.” I do not blame them: it is the only Mr Harper: Since I mentioned her, I will of course thing to do with policies that are uncosted and unfunded. give way to the hon. Lady. This debate is a manoeuvre to avoid talking about our successful long-term economic plan of halving the Ms Buck: Perhaps the Minister will explain to the deficit by the end of this year, meeting the welfare cap House why, in the last year alone, there has been a rise commitment in every year of the forecast, reducing welfare of almost 30% in the number of households forced spending as a proportion of GDP, making reforms that outside the area in which they originate? That is in will save nearly £50 billion over this Parliament, and contradiction to the advice given by Housing Ministers restoring hard-won security, hope and aspiration to for years and years that homeless households should families across Britain. Having listened to the Opposition, not be placed outside their local authority. I have one thing to say: they need more time in opposition to work out why the public do not believe they are fit for Mr Harper: It is simply not the case that people have office. been pushed out of London: 84% of the capped households Several hon. Members rose— in inner London that have moved continue to live in the central boroughs. The idea that hundreds of thousands Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): of people would be forced out of London is simply not Order. Nineteen hon. Members wish to take part in the true. debate, and we have to reach the wind-ups by 4 o’clock. I am going to start with a time limit of five minutes for Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): each Back Bencher, but if there are a lot of interventions The Minister is making a point about employment and it will be necessary for that to be reduced. people moving into work. Is not the end of dependency a huge social change? Each one of those people has 2.30 pm been helped by this Government. Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab): I am delighted that we have the opportunity for this debate. Mr Harper: My hon. and learned Friend is absolutely I would actually have preferred another debate, though; right. on 2 April, the Select Committee on Work and Pensions According to the latest statistics, landlord claims for published a report entitled “Support for housing costs possession across the whole social rented sector are in the reformed welfare system”. As yet, however, we down 14% on the year, and warrants for eviction are have not had the Government response. down 3%. Housing association rent arrears have fallen It was interesting to hear the Minister say that various on the year, and rent collections are stable at 99%. We things had recently been published, given that we are still have not seen a mass exodus to the private sector. Social waiting for that response. Youwill know, Madam Deputy sector lettings have increased, moves from the social Speaker, that the Government are normally given two sector to the private rented sector have fallen—down months to respond to a Select Committee report, and it almost 20,000 since 2010-11—and, as I have said, the has been a lot more than two months in this case. Every cost of paying housing benefit in the private sector has time the Government’s response has been chased up, we fallen in real terms for the past two years, in contrast to have been told that it is lost somewhere in government—I what happened when the Labour party was in power. am not quite sure where. Of course, a Select Committee 1441 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 17 DECEMBER 2014 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 1442 Sector Size Criteria) Sector Size Criteria) cannot apply to the Liaison Committee for a debate if it houses with fewer bedrooms are in the private rented does not have the Government response. However, today’s sector. However, many people cannot afford to go into debate gives me an opportunity to raise some of the that sector, because the cap that the Government have points that the Work and Pensions Committee made. introduced on the local housing allowance means that The Committee did not call for the scrapping of the they cannot find anywhere that they can rent. That is bedroom tax, although personally I would like it to be despite the fact that the cap is higher than the rent they scrapped as soon as possible, and we called it the “social were paying when they were living in a two-bedroom sector size criteria” to try to depoliticise the matter. council house. However, we made important recommendations about how the worst effects of that pernicious policy could be Mr Harper: I apologise if the House did not spot this mitigated. A lot of them were about exempting particular when I mentioned it in my speech, but moves from the groups that have already been mentioned in the debate— social sector to the private rented sector have actually such as carers, disabled people who need extra room fallen. The English housing survey—I admit that this is and anyone living in a property that has had adjustments not in Scotland—shows that they are down by 20,000 made to it, who would probably find it impossible since 2010-11. The number has fallen, so people are not to move. being driven from the social sector to the private sector. The Minister gave the game away when he talked It is actually the other way round. about discretionary housing payments. Groups of people such as I have mentioned were clearly not meant to be Dame Anne Begg: That fits with what is happening in included in the bedroom tax when the policy was designed; Aberdeen. People are not going into the private rented the fact that they were to get discretionary housing payments sector, because it is too expensive. Rents are above the indicates that they were not meant to be caught by it. cap that the Government have set. The irony is that the However, discretionary housing payments are what they Government are prepared to pay money up to a cap say they are—discretionary. They are not long-term. that is higher than the amount that people would be paying in rent if they were not subject to the bedroom In reply to my hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of tax. That is the important point. State, the Minister said that they had been extended to give families time to adjust, but the family that my hon. It is not much good for the Minister to give the Friend mentioned cannot adjust—they need a house number of one-bedroom properties across the whole the size of the one they are in. A woman who has had a country, because when the Housing Minister, the hon. refuge built cannot adjust and move, because it has been Member for Great Yarmouth (Brandon Lewis), appeared specifically built for her. I cannot see why the Government before the Work and Pensions Committee and was persist in turning their face against sensible proposals asked where the spare capacity was, he said that it was for exemptions. They keep arguing that it is all right in Grimsby. That is not much good to people in Aberdeen because people get discretionary housing payments, but who cannot find a house to move to. those payments are not permanent. People need permanent I assure Ministers that there are no places in Aberdeen provision for their adjustment. for people to move to. In fact, there is a labour shortage The number of people across the country caught by because there are not enough properties to allow people the bedroom tax is quite staggering. In my constituency, to come and work and live in Aberdeen. That is a real where unemployment is really low, there are still 419 people problem, and the bedroom tax does nothing to mitigate affected by the bedroom tax. Across Aberdeen, where it. If anything, it makes the situation worse, because it most people are in work—there is almost full employment makes people feel insecure in what should be a secure —more than 1,600 are affected. The irony in such a tenancy. They are often in houses that they have lived in place is that people are being forced out of a two or all their lives and seen their families grow up in, but now three-bedroom council house because of the bedroom they are either being forced to pay extra or being forced tax, but the Government seem willing to pay even more out of their houses and finding that there is nowhere through housing benefit in the private rented sector, else for them to go. That is why the policy is pernicious because the rent on a one-bedroom house in that sector and should be scrapped. is higher than that on a three-bedroom council house. 2.38 pm Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): I am sure that all Members will recognise that people are Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con): I am pleased to being driven out of the social rented sector into the follow the Chair of the Work and Pensions Committee. arms of private landlords. I trust the figures given by However, one cannot on the one hand say that people my hon. Friend and her Committee more than the ones are being driven from the social sector to the private that the Government give. Has she seen a figure for the sector, and on the other argue the opposite case by number of people who have been driven from the public saying that the number of people moving to the private rented sector into the private rented sector? sector is falling because rental prices are going up. Those are contradictory points. Members have to choose Dame Anne Begg: I am afraid I do not have that one line of attack. figure. Dame Anne Begg: The only choice that a person has Mr Harper rose— is to stay where they are and pay the bedroom tax. That is the problem. Dame Anne Begg: I suspect that the Minister is seeking to intervene on me to tell me the figure, and I will give Kwasi Kwarteng: I am glad that that has completely way to him in a moment. I suspect that across the cleared up how Members can argue two entirely different country, if the situation is anything like in Aberdeen, the things. 1443 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 17 DECEMBER 2014 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 1444 Sector Size Criteria) Sector Size Criteria) [Kwasi Kwarteng] Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) (Lab): I have listened with great attention to the hon. Let us put the matter in context. There is a lot of Gentleman’s compelling rhetoric. He spoke about the scaremongering, wild words and passion from Opposition management of the mad house. Is it the management of Members, but very little attention to the facts. The the mad house to try to force families in houses that allegedly Government removed the spare room subsidy simply to have too many bedrooms out of that accommodation in equalise the situation with what was going on in the a borough such as Hackney, where there simply are not private sector. I find it absolutely extraordinary that enough one or two-bedroom flats for them to move in Labour Members are saying that it is all very well to to? have a discrepancy between social housing and private rented housing. Let us look at some more facts. Currently, Kwasi Kwarteng: We have established that there is a 1.4 million households are on social housing waiting supply problem, but what we must agree on—and the lists in England alone, and nearly 250,000 families are general public agree—is that reform in this crucial area living in overcrowded accommodation. On what planet was needed. Neither of the interventions that I have does it make sense not to have some degree of equity or taken addressed the fact that there is massive overcrowding, fairness between people who rent in the private sector and that a quarter of a million families are living in and those in social housing? accommodation that is physically too small for them. In such a situation, surely it is common sense to try to Mr Slaughter: I am so sick and tired of listening to equalise and rationalise the supply. [Interruption.] It is Tories crying crocodile tears about this. Some 822 people all very well for Labour Members to shake their heads pay the bedroom tax in Hammersmith, and the last and deny there is a problem, but at least the Government Conservative council sold off or demolished 500 council have had the courage to try to address the issue. They houses. How does the hon. Gentleman think that that are doing so not by applying radical new ideas, but by possibly helped with overcrowding? doing what Labour did in government when they introduced a change to private sector rental agreements. It is time Kwasi Kwarteng: I am not aware of the details of the for the Labour party to wise up and get real— hon. Gentleman’s borough council, but Members across the House have widely acknowledged that there is a Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): problem with housing supply. However, I am confused Order. This afternoon’s debate is following a sort of when the Labour party says that those in private rented pattern where the Opposition shout at the Government, accommodation should pay an extra amount, but that the Government shout at the Opposition, and then both social housing should be exempt from that—and all in sides complain that there has not been a proper debate. the context of people living in overcrowded accommodation I hope that Members who continue to shout across the and not having enough rooms. People come to our Chamber will resist the urge to do so and listen to the surgeries who are living in cramped conditions, and debate. Labour thinks it is all very well to carry on as before. The wider point is that even if we were running a 2.46 pm balanced budget, this would be a legitimate subject for debate. When we add in the context of a country that is Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): Kindly commentators borrowing £100 billion a year—largely thanks to the may say that the bedroom tax is simply an example of a efforts of the Labour party when it was in government—and short-sighted, ill-thought-out, thorough administrative when both sides of the House are trying to reduce mess up, but actually it is worse than that: it is cruel, Government expenditure, it is the financial management nasty, and the cause of a great deal of misery and of the mad house not to look at welfare expenditure hardship. It springs from the same policy mindset as the and try to reduce it. Again, there are facts to back this belief that food banks are somehow an acceptable part up. Without reform, the overall housing benefit bill of the social fabric in the 21st century. would have risen to more than £25 billion in 2014-15, The mess-up theorists are right when it comes to how and as the Minister established, we have saved £2 billion. the bedroom tax works, because it does not work. The Government originally said that it was all about addressing Several hon. Members rose— overcrowding and freeing up bigger properties for bigger families, but the reality is different. In Wigan there is a Kwasi Kwarteng: Forgive me. Each and every one of real problem in finding tenants for three and four-bedroom those reforms and attempts to reduce expenditure have houses, and they are remaining empty for long periods. been opposed by the Labour party. It is well and truly In fact, the voids bill has risen to £1.1 million—double said that Labour is the party of welfare: by my estimate, that of last year—because of the time it is taking to fill it has opposed £83 billion of welfare spending savings those properties. this Parliament. Under the previous Government it was notorious and a scandal that the maximum housing Andrew Gwynne: My hon. Friend is making a powerful benefit award was £104,000 a year—[Interruption.] These point. Is part of the problem with the bedroom tax that are well-established facts; for exactly that reason, when it was retrospective in nature? Many tenants were allocated the Government introduced the £26,000 welfare cap, it those properties and accepted them in good faith. They was the most popular Government policy since the now find themselves trapped and having to pay bills second world war and since polling began. There is that they did not foresee. wide acknowledgement among the public that those reforms, although difficult, are crucial in trying to reduce Yvonne Fovargue: Absolutely. It is simply not the case the deficit and get the country back to some form of that hundreds of families in Wigan are packed together sanity in the conduct of its economy. like sardines, waiting for people with extra rooms to 1445 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 17 DECEMBER 2014 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 1446 Sector Size Criteria) Sector Size Criteria) move out. The Government say that it is about fairness in Wigan, the financial impact ranges from nearly £10 a and levelling the playing field between those in social week to nearly £25 a week, or £1,273 a year. That is a lot housing and those who rent privately who cannot afford of money to find on a low income. As I said, they spare bedrooms. Again, that is not the case in Wigan cannot move because there is a shortage of housing, so where one-bedroom properties are much rarer and people they have nowhere to go, are staying put and building in the private rented sector can have a spare bedroom up debts. One clear consequence of the policy is the without paying for the privilege. That is because—contrary build-up of rent arrears. Figures from my constituency to the myth perpetrated by Government Members—the demonstrate that 44% of under-occupation households local housing allowance does not exactly work in the were in arrears in March 2014. The amount of arrears same way. It was not introduced retrospectively, and it is from the 3,319 households was £381,000, with £225,000 based on the average rent in an area for the size of solely attributable to the under-occupation charge. That property. Therefore, if a family can find a larger property is not a good outcome for a local authority trying to that remains within the LHA rate, they can rent it with balance its budget, and it is not good for the people no penalty, as can be the case in Wigan. themselves, who are at risk of being evicted because Even if it were possible for a family to move easily to they simply cannot find the extra money to pay their a smaller property, what would be the consequences? rent. It is bad for tenants and it is bad for the councils After all, a “spare”, or to put it crudely, “extra” room that are trying to balance compassion with getting the measure takes no account of disabled people’s adapted money in. The only alternative to building up debts is to homes, foster parents who need rooms to take children cut down on essentials, such as heating and food. I in, separated parents who share custody of a child, or the think we can certainly conclude that the bedroom tax grandparent in my constituency—as I know, grandparents has played its part in pushing people towards food are not always pensioners—who looks after her daughter’s banks, which have surely become the defining image of child while she works nights. She would have to move. the Government in their dying days. It is not too late for the Government to do the right Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): I have had thing and scrap this cruel and unfair tax. It has not situations in Bristol where the housing department has given them what they wanted—budget savings—and decided that someone needs a second bedroom, but the has not helped to end overcrowding or make our housing housing benefit people have said that they are eligible system fairer. All it has done is to make poor people for the bedroom tax. On one hand it is judged that more stressed and desperate, living with the constant someone does need an extra room, but on the other uncertainty of discretionary housing payments. I stress they are told that they have to pay for it. Is that not the word “discretionary”, because there is nothing certain grossly unfair? about them at all. The human cost of the policy does not justify any savings that may have been made. I urge Yvonne Fovargue: Absolutely, and that is the problem Government Members to look at that at Christmas and with a discretionary payment. Do we really want people vote with the Labour party. to move every time their circumstances change? Let us look at it logically. A young couple move into a one- 2.52 pm bedroom flat. They have a child so they move to a two-bedroom flat. Then they have another child. The Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): It is a pleasure to children start school and can share a bedroom for a follow the hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue). certain time, but when the first child is older the family She is well respected as a knowledgeable expert on these move again to a three-bedroom property. Then, when issues. She said that the under-occupancy penalty is the eldest child is 18, they move back to the two-bedroom cruel and described the mindset of those who would flat. Then they go to a one-bedroom flat. Is that not a introduce such a policy. Presumably, that is the same sure way to break down communities, take away social mindset that introduced this policy into the private cohesion and spoil children’s education just when they rented sector and reinforced it. My record on this issue need it? However, that point is academic, because, as I can be seen on a number of occasions, including on the said, there just are not the properties available for people Affordable Homes Bill, which received a 75-vote majority to move around like that. People are not chess pieces. in this House on 5 September. My opposition to the Perhaps the Government know that. This is not really under-occupancy penalty has been consistent throughout, about overcrowding, but saving money. Even by that including during the previous Labour Government. yardstick, however, it still does not work. The Department It is not the fault of those who are in housing need for Work and Pensions assessment has been downgraded that successive Governments have failed to build enough a number of times. It now appears that the cost of homes of the right size, and they should not be made to dealing with the debt, eviction, abandonment of properties pay the penalty for that. It would be nonsense to move and widespread misery and mental health problems disabled people from homes that have been converted, caused by this pernicious tax might mean that cash often expensively at taxpayers’ expense, only to have to savings are minimal or non-existent. do it all over again in another property. It is rare in my constituency, and I know in many others, to find a Lilian Greenwood: Will my hon. Friend give way? suitable alternative home within 20 or 30 miles. It is wrong that people who have a settled life in a local Yvonne Fovargue: Not at the moment. community should have to uproot themselves from Debt, eviction and widespread misery are what we their social and family, and other supportive, connections are talking about. They are the result of the Government’s to meet the requirement of this unacceptable policy. reform. People have not been given a choice. If they The fundamental moral point is that the poor are just cannot move to a property with fewer bedrooms, they have as entitled to a stable family home as the better off. to make up the rent difference themselves. For tenants There are many circumstances where apparent under- 1447 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 17 DECEMBER 2014 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 1448 Sector Size Criteria) Sector Size Criteria) [Andrew George] The Conservatives claim that the purpose of the under- occupancy penalty is to save money by cutting benefit where occupancy is for a good reason: the visiting carer; the the recipient occupies a property that is larger than they young nest returner coming back to a family home— need, and to ensure the efficient use of a scarce public something that middle-class people expect to offer to resource—social housing. Those two objectives, however, their younger people—after perhaps not getting on in contradict each other. If the second objective—the effective life as they anticipated; and those who provide shared use of public resource—were achieved and every last care. We should be encouraging housing associations cubic centimetre of every council house was fully occupied, and other social housing providers to build larger homes. it would fail to meet their first objective of saving money. When I worked in this sector, I always sought to ensure I have a problem with the Labour party’s motion, that social housing providers had some flexibility. Having partly because it deals only with the social sector, which larger homes provided flexibility in the management of is odd. If Labour had applied it to the private rented their estate. This policy drives them in the opposite sector, I might have considered voting for it. Above all, I direction. I fear there is also a sinister agenda to create am concerned to deal with this issue seriously. We can an environment in which poor families will ultimately either play party politics and come up with the kind of turn on their poor neighbours and blame them if they motion the Labour party has come up with today, or we are living in overcrowded accommodation, rather than can use the vehicle that is available, the Affordable Homes looking further afield to find the real culprit. Bill. Although my amendment has not been accepted for debate, we should still be working together to seek Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): What political consensus to help the victims of this policy, happened to the hon. Gentleman’s private Member’s instead of using them to score party political points, Bill? How was it stopped? He mentioned poorer families. and that could be done with the money resolution What is the actual cost? Is it costing £15 or £25 a week necessary to advance my Bill. The Minister asked how for those families who have to move? we would pay for it. We could pay for it by driving down rents, rather than driving people out on to the streets. Andrew George: It is already on record as 14% and On the money resolution, I am afraid— 25%, depending on the number of rooms. I am concerned about the trading of statistics in the debate so far. I have Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): to say that they are far away, and wildly so, from many Order. Will the hon. Gentleman stop talking about the of the statistics I have scrutinised when looking at the money resolution and get on with it? impact of the policy. They need to be traded in a calmer environment. Andrew George: The money resolution concerns my Affordable Homes Bill, which would address this issue, were we to solve the problem with the money resolution. David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con) rose— In conclusion, we should be seeking consensus, rather than scoring party political points. Andrew George: There is a division between Liberal Democrats and Conservatives on this issue, and I think Several hon. Members rose— it will be amplified now. Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I am now reducing David Rutley: I want to make a separate and important the time limit to four minutes, and there is a serious point. We have a very creative local housing association danger that some Members will not get to speak even in our area, Peaks & Plains, which has established with a four-minute time limit if we do not start making pop-up business schools to enable more people to set up better progress. their own businesses and become established on their own two feet. Does the hon. Gentleman believe that 3.1 pm that, and other policies from the Government Benches such as the new enterprise allowance, is helping more John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab): This is people to get established and be better able to take care a tax by any other name. It is horrendous and pernicious, of their housing costs? as was said, and targets some of the most vulnerable people in our communities. It attacks the elderly, the disabled, families of all sizes and, above all else, those Andrew George: I think that is slightly outwith the already struggling to get by day after day. I am incredibly focus of the debate. Nevertheless, I of course acknowledge saddened to see that my city of Glasgow is one of the the merit of what the hon. Gentleman suggests. worst affected in the whole UK: 12,000 people in Glasgow The Conservatives have form when it comes to spending have been hit by the bedroom tax, including 2,000 in my public money on the under-occupancy of residential constituency alone. That is too many. property. After all, the last time they were in government on their own they introduced a council tax discount for Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab): second homes. Hundreds of millions of pounds of Does my hon. Friend think that the Secretary of State taxpayers’ money was spent every year subsidising the learned anything when he visited Easterhouse in Glasgow wealthy to have their second homes, when there were and listened to what he was told about the level of thousands of local families who could not afford their poverty there? first home. That defines the Conservatives’ approach: they reward the wealthy when they under-occupy their John Robertson: The one thing we know about Ministers, second home and they penalise the poor when they who are having a wee chat among themselves, is that under-occupy their council home. they do not listen to anybody. That is the problem with 1449 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 17 DECEMBER 2014 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 1450 Sector Size Criteria) Sector Size Criteria) the Government. They sit and have their little chats 3.6 pm because they are bored of the common people in the John Howell (Henley) (Con): I am amazed that the Opposition trying to help them. [Interruption.] They Labour party wishes to portray the withdrawal of the can say what they like, but that is how it looks to me. spare room subsidy in the light it does. It seems to have Mr Harper: I was listening carefully to the hon. forgotten that it introduced similar rules in the private Gentleman, and I was quite surprised by his comments, rented sector, as was illustrated by my right hon. Friend because the Scottish Government have decided to use the Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry). Difficult some of their own money to ensure that people in Scotland decisions have not been made regarding the social housing are not affected by the spare room subsidy withdrawal. stock; instead they have been ignored. It is appropriate that tenants make a contribution John Robertson: The Minister is right, except for one towards their rent if they are living in accommodation thing: it was thanks to the Labour party north of the that is too large. As I will illustrate, the majority of border frightening the Scottish Government into it. tenants in the district I represent agree with this change, [Interruption.] They are having a wee chat again, but which will bring the social housing sector into line with that’s okay. He misses the whole point. This is about the private rented sector. With that in mind, I looked at people who care. It is about a side of government he how the change was affecting people in the district in does not understand. The Opposition worry about people which I live. This debate needs that level of analysis to who do not have much. Whether they live in Scotland, show that the charge is not affecting many people and Wales, Northern Ireland or England, I still care about that there is widespread agreement on the need for the people of this country. I am a United Kingdom tenants to contribute to their rent, which we are all Member of Parliament, and I will look after everyone paying for, or to move out of houses that are seen to be within this nation. too large for their needs. I want to mention a couple of cases. John, a disabled There are almost 7,000 recipients of housing benefit man, lives on his own and has two teenage kids at in my district, of which almost 3,000 are in the private school. He wants to keep in touch with his family—he rented sector, which leaves 4,000 in the public rented wants them to be a part of his life, and he wants to be a sector. At the beginning of April 2013, the total number part of theirs—so he keeps a bedroom ready for them of social tenants having their housing benefit cut by the so they have the freedom to visit at weekends, to stop in withdrawal of the spare room subsidy came to 474. By on the occasional weekday and to come and go as they September 2014, this had fallen by 27%. In April 2013, please. He desperately wants to keep his family together, the numbers affected amounted to 7% of the housing but moving to a one-bedroom house would end that benefit case load; by September 2014, this had fallen to freedom for him and his children. I cannot imagine the 5%. That is not a lot, but I believe passionately that the hurt and anger I would feel, as a father of three, if I had interests of those affected should be looked after. to tell my children or my grandchildren what John now For that reason, I looked at the discretionary housing has to tell his kids: that they cannot come and stay, even payments. In the first period, 212 people applied for to look after him when he is not well. That is due to this DHP. Of these, 139 received awards, leaving a total of Tory-led Government—make no mistake about that. It 79 who applied but were rejected. Of those 79, only one is the Tories who have done this. appealed, and the officer’s decision was upheld. This I know the Minister said he did not want to hear year, the number of applications dropped from 212 to about cases, but I will mention another one. I know why 40. Awards were made to 27; 13 were refused. Of those he does not want to hear about cases: because they are in receipt of DHP in July 2014, more than half accepted about real people, people we care about but they do they needed to make up the deduction, while a total of not—[Interruption.] They are having a little chat again. 32% had either moved to a smaller property or returned A constituent of mine, Christina, wrote to me and to work and were no longer eligible for housing benefit. explained her situation. She is a self-employed 60-year-old This is in a constituency where the unemployment rate who lived in her house for 19 years with a son who has successfully dropped to 278. recently moved out. She gets by in life, but gives all the Social housing tenants accept that they need to contribute time she can to voluntary work in her community, and to their rent or find work. Furthermore, there has been she suffers from mental health issues. She feels safe in no significant impact on homelessness, and there remains her home and in her community. She is not opposed to an ongoing duty to accommodate homeless people. In downsizing, and she understands that another family 2012-13, homelessness stood at 44; in 2013-14, it stood might need the two bedrooms more than she does, but at 40; and in 2014-15, it stood at 34. By the end of she cannot afford to move: she cannot afford the new 2013-14, the level of rent arrears stood at 1.7% against a white goods she would need in a new home; she cannot target of 2%. There is no denying that the spare room afford to furnish and decorate a new home; and she subsidy has affected a number of households, but the cannot afford a removal van to take her possessions impact has not been widespread and many are accepting with her. Most importantly, however, she cannot afford that they need to share the costs of this accommodation. the £41 a month she will need to make up the difference. That is in a district that is building accommodation that For people such as Christina, it is literally a choice is suitable for people to move to as quickly as possible. between rent and food. Madam Deputy Speaker, I have taken two interventions 3.10 pm already, and I do not want to take up any more time. I think I have made my point. This pernicious tax on the Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): Eighteen poorest in our society has to be got rid of, and if the months ago, on a brilliant spring morning, a Meriden Government, with their friends on the Liberal Benches, grandmother, Stephanie Bottrill, got up, sat down at will not do it, we will. her kitchen table, wrote notes to her son, her daughter, 1451 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 17 DECEMBER 2014 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 1452 Sector Size Criteria) Sector Size Criteria) [Jack Dromey] consequence of their actions. The Secretary of State as often affected a damascene conversion on the road to a the grandson she adored and her friends and neighbours, Glasgow housing estate, yet now he is presiding over fed the cat, put the keys through a neighbour’s door and pain on a grand scale to tens of thousands of decent then walked three miles through the early dawn light to men and women in this country. He has sat there the M6, where she threw herself under a lorry and throughout this debate with a Cheshire cat smirk on his committed suicide. The last straw for Stephanie Bottrill face, oblivious to the consequences of his actions. This was having to pay the bedroom tax. is a cruel, callous tax and one of our first acts as a What kind of Government causes such pain to decent Labour Government will be to confine it to where it men and women? Once in a generation there is a tax so richly deserves to be: the dustbin of history. bad that the next generation looks back and asks, “Why did they do it?” Such was the poll tax, and now we have 3.15 pm the bedroom tax. To add insult to injury, on the very day the bedroom tax was introduced the Government Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): What is gave millionaires a £100,000 tax cut. In Birmingham, more depressing about this debate, which we have time and than 10,000 households have been hit hard, 1,529 in my again, is that it calls for a policy that was invented by constituency, with an average loss of £16.42 to the most the Labour party to be reversed and does not offer any vulnerable and with some losing as much as £1,400 a solutions for moving forward with the welfare state. We year. A quarter of them are disabled. Who benefits? The should take such opportunities to get out of the soundbite Chancellor, because as far as he is concerned we have bingo and to get on with making policies that might seen a weekly reduction in housing benefit of £179,000, help to tackle the long-term problems. with him netting £9 million a year while 10,000 people Out-of-control welfare spending leads to the situation lose out. that we find in countries not too far away—in Ireland, Let me give some brief examples from my constituency. perhaps. In real terms, public pay, pensions and benefits Terry lives in a two-bedroom house with his wife, and had to be cut significantly to regain control of the he has to have a separate room because she needs public finances. There is nothing just about running an specialist breathing apparatus at all times. They have economy in that way, because when eventually people had to pay the bedroom tax because they are in a need to rely on the welfare state—which we, as the sixth two-bedroom home. Brian lives in a two-bedroom property richest nation in the world, should be proud of—they and was desperate to move to a one-bedroom property cannot, because the governing body of the day has to avoid paying the bedroom tax. He tried time and destroyed the economy and left no money. time again, but he could not do it because there were In these times, we lose sight of the original five evils only 43 available in the whole of Birmingham for in laid down in the Beveridge report: squalor, disease, excess of 10,000 households. want, ignorance and idleness. We have tackled many of those, and we must ensure that we do not go backwards, Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): On that but we are in danger of placing an increasing burden on point, in Stoke-on-Trent, there is nowhere for 2,700 the modern welfare state while still operating a system families are affected by the bedroom tax to go. There invented a long time ago. We need new thinking about are no other properties for them to take. how best to deliver efficiently and about ensuring that the resources we have are used in the best way to tackle Jack Dromey: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. poverty. They are trapped, having to pay the bedroom tax whether On 18 December 2012, I introduced a ten-minute rule they like it or not. Bill on the subject of a welfare cash card to pay benefits A third constituent, Nicky, lives with her husband in to all recipients of benefits in this country, in work or a two-bedroom property. Her husband is a paraplegic out of work, through electronic means. I have spent the and they are unable to share a bedroom, which is why two years since then researching some of the criticisms they are in a two-bedroom house. They, too, have to pay made at the time, the practicalities and how the idea the bedroom tax. could move forward. I thank the Joseph Rowntree The Opposition are all in favour of reducing the Foundation, Oxfam, the Trussell Trust and the Money housing benefits bill, but housing benefit is being pushed Advice Service for the discussions they have had with up by low wages and high rent. I met a young mother in me. the food bank in the Baptist church at the end of A key point about electronic payment is the speed at Erdington High street. She is in work, doing two jobs, which it can focus resources where they need to be and but she is on poverty pay and is having to claim housing deal with one of the key problems that emerges in our benefit as a consequence. discussions about housing benefit. The Trussell Trust There are also not enough homes in our country. In highlighted the problem of people having to choose government, we built 2 million homes and 500,000 whether to eat and the problems caused by delays in affordable homes, but under this Government we have benefit payments, which can sometimes lead to people the lowest level of house building since the 1920s. Tens having to go to a food bank. Electronic payment would of thousands of people all over the country are trapped allow immediate upload; there would be no delay. in homes in which they have often lived for decades, It is sad that a dogmatic approach, saying that we having to pay a retrospective tax and struggling as a absolutely cannot have such cards because they are consequence. equivalent to food vouchers, stops new thinking about In conclusion, Government Members, particularly efficient ways of using the state. If we do not move to a those on the Front Bench, just do not get it. They just modern system, and if we do not move away from a do not understand the pain that has been felt as a system of barter like that in the Bible, quite frankly, we 1453 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 17 DECEMBER 2014 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 1454 Sector Size Criteria) Sector Size Criteria) run the risk of making the system completely unworkable. one of our few Opposition day slots to have a debate on We must therefore use debates such as today’s sensibly the bedroom tax and then to force a vote on its abolition. to consider how the welfare state can move forward to That was down to my party, the SNP and the Green deliver the needs that people have when they hit hard Member. times. That is what this debate is about. It is about how When, early in 2014, the finances allowed it, the SNP the Government can support people. Simply saying that Scottish Government implemented a top-up from their we need to pour in more money and to reverse policies budget in order to mitigate the effects of the bedroom will leave us with a situation in which the welfare state tax. The Government of Scotland, voted for by the will be inoperable because the country has gone bankrupt. people of Scotland, were protecting their people from We see this all around Europe, where people in the the worst excesses of a Westminster Government for greatest need do not get the support they need. whom they did not vote. Many of us in Wales naturally turned to our own devolved Government to see what 3.19 pm they would do. Again, it was left to Plaid Cymru to push in the National Assembly for mitigation of the Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): The Minister began cuts to council tax benefit—thanks to the efforts of my his contribution this afternoon with the good news colleague, Rhodri Glyn Thomas, AM. about unemployment. He made a case for giving the full Labour could have recognised that the bedroom tax picture, so this is a message for both Front-Bench was affecting the most vulnerable and implemented teams—the one that has overall charge of the economy, mitigation measures, but it chose not to do so. It did and the one that has charge of the economy mainly in choose to allocate some money to the smaller houses— Wales. In the last quarter, unemployment in Wales went 357 houses in all of Wales, to be precise, while 35,000 up by 8,000. That is indeed the full picture. households are affected by the spare room subsidy. The I welcome the motion. The bedroom tax is one of the Welsh Government could have implemented a no evictions most ill-thought-out policies brought about since the policy, but chose not to do so. Leaving all that aside, I poll tax, and I think it should be abolished with immediate think the people of Wales can clearly see that it is Plaid effect. The under-occupancy penalty, if we must call it Cymru in Wales, the SNP in Scotland and the Green that, has been applied to about half a million people, party that have led on this matter—and they will act more than 60% of whom have a disabled member and accordingly at the general election. the vast majority of whom have absolutely no hope of downsizing in order to avoid the penalty. In fact, in 3.23 pm Wales, 35,000 households have been affected. Many of them were allocated their current homes a very long Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): As always time ago—and they are their homes, which is a very in these debates—we have had a few of them—I rely on important point. They are homes—not properties or the statistics and figures from my outstanding South just houses—where people live and have lived for a very Derbyshire district council, which has retained housing. long time. In the first 12 months of this policy, 318 tenants were affected and needed help. The council was proactive, Before the bedroom tax was first proposed, I asked employing a tenants sustainability officer to help to the then Minister what assessment had been made of ensure that all the relevant benefits were being paid to the elasticity of the local housing supply in the private those who needed help. I am delighted to tell the House sector in Wales. I asked whether the Government had that, over the last 12 months, only 73 tenants have been thought about it beforehand. Tellingly, the answer was affected by the policy. That is an outstanding achievement. “none”. The Government’s motive was to cut. People I am incredibly proud of the council. could neither move nor take in a lodger, and no attempt A number of factors came into play. The council has was made to prepare people to move to smaller houses been very proactive in using the discretionary housing if needed. This was and is a ruthless money-saving budget. When it had used about 80% of its allocation, exercise. Those of us who warned of the implications of the Government offered more money to affected councils. the bedroom tax beforehand and opposed it from the It put in a bid and was given more money, and has now very start take absolutely no pleasure in saying, “We used more than 80% of the grand total—the larger told you so”—but that is the case. amount. The council understands about keeping Ministers have been keen to point to the discretionary communities together and about dealing with carers housing payment fund, saying that it is helping to fill and disabled people. the gap. The average DHP funding per head in Britain is There is another crucial reason for the fact that the £2.83. In Wales it is £2.51—in marked contrast with situation in South Derbyshire has completely and comparable areas such as the north-east of England, dramatically changed. This is, of course, a groundhog where it is £2.80, and Scotland, where it is £5.39. I shall day debate, but it proves yet again that the Opposition return to that point later. Ministers have sought to are hardly worthy of the name. One of the reasons for reassure us by saying that the DHP fund will receive an that dramatic change—apart from our having a caring extra £40 million in the next year. Given that rents are Conservative council—is the huge drop in our rising again, I have some doubt about whether that will unemployment figures. In May 2012, 1,402 people in fill the gap and, as has been said, that is not long-term South Derbyshire were unemployed; in November 2014, funding. 517 signed on. The point is that this Government believe Looking back to the Welfare Reform Bill in early 2011— that work should pay, this Government believe that now the Welfare Reform Act 2012—I note that Labour people should have every opportunity to get back into Members abstained on Second Reading. Their action work, and this Government are sitting on the fact that speaks for itself. In early 2013, it was left to Plaid Cymru, the number of tenants affected by this policy has fallen the Scottish National party and the Green party to use from 318 to 73. 1455 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 17 DECEMBER 2014 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 1456 Sector Size Criteria) Sector Size Criteria) Alec Shelbrooke: Does my hon. Friend agree that, as her husband at some points during the week to catch up a result of the tough decisions on welfare that the on sleep outside regular hours. Besides the small wage Government had to make and the lower borrowing her husband earns, the couple rely on benefits. That rates that they have now produced, we can give businesses only just covers the bare necessities of life: food, utilities the tax cuts that will enable them to pay more than the and rent. The cut of nearly £60 has impacted on her minimum wage and hopefully go further, thus helping independence. She and her husband do not have a car, the poorest in society to get on? and because of the new costs, she is now unable to get out of the house. That is the reality of the bedroom tax. Heather Wheeler: Absolutely. I do not know whether This is not about the to and fro of debate; this is what you will allow me to give my hon. Friend a proper people are living with day in, day out. answer, Madam Deputy Speaker, because this is slightly My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Erdington off the point, but two major companies have factories (Jack Dromey) said that the Conservatives do not get it. in my constituency. One is Faccenda, whose turkey- They do get it. What they get has been shown by the processing plant is very busy at the moment, and the previous speaker, the hon. Member for South Derbyshire other is Nestlé. Both have announced publicly that no (Heather Wheeler). This is about creating an argument one working in those factories will earn less than the between our side and their side. They want to portray us living wage. They are taking the lead, and that is the as being the party of welfare. Well, we are the party of moral thing to do. welfare; we are the party of the welfare state. We created I am incredibly proud of my businesses, my council, the welfare state, and we did that because the Conservatives and the tenants who have found the right way to obtain were perfectly happy to see poor people carrying rich jobs and get out of the welfare benefit society that the people. That is exactly what we are seeing today, too, Opposition seem to want to make everyone pay for. It with people such as those I have talked about being should not be like that. Get into the 21st century, guys! robbed of £60 while Conservative Members’ friends get a £107,000 payout of taxpayers’ money in the previous Budget and again in this one. 3.27 pm It is clear what this is about. It is not about looking Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): I speak as chair after people. It is about creating a dividing line, so that of the all-party group for muscular dystrophy, and as when the Conservatives go into the next election they one who knows families who have been devastated by can say, “We’re the party who don’t believe in welfare. the disease. They have written to me asking me to Labour do.”Well, let us be clear: today we have seen clearly convey their views, and to describe to the House what that Labour stands up for the poor of this country, the they experience every day. vulnerable and the sick. It will be interesting to see what This policy has caused a huge amount of concern to the Liberal Democrats do, because if they get it wrong most disabled adults, including those with muscular today, it will be yet another nail in their coffin when dystrophy or related neuromuscular diseases. Many disabled next May comes around. people and their families who require adapted housing and special access to accommodate their needs have been hit hardest by the bedroom tax, as it is more 3.31 pm widely known. That applies particularly to people who Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): It is a live on their own or with a partner. They may need extra great pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for space for vital home adaptations and equipment storage, Blaydon (Mr Anderson). He is completely right: our as well as space that enables carers to stay overnight. If party stands for a strong economy and a fair society, appropriate new housing cannot be found for those while the Conservatives have overseen a complete economic people, they face a stark choice. They must force themselves catastrophe, with the amount of debt escalating to 80% to move to properties that have not been adapted, or of the economy now. remain in their houses and make a number of cutbacks or fall into debt. Let me give the House some examples that people David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): have asked me to give. Denise is affected by a progressive Does the hon. Gentleman agree that he and his colleagues muscle-wasting condition known as myotonic dystrophy. have collective amnesia about what happened during She lives in a two-bedroom flat with her husband, who 13 years of Labour Governments? acts as her primary carer. Following the Government’s reforms, Denise was told that her housing benefit would Geraint Davies: Share of debt has gone to 80% from be reduced in April. However, the fluctuating nature of 55%, the Conservative-led Government have now borrowed her condition makes it necessary for a carer to stay more in four years than we did in 13 years, and the overnight on occasion. The spare room is also used to economy is flatlining when it had grown by 40%. Their store ventilation equipment, a shower chair and other economic incompetence and the bankers’ errors are being equipment, and Denise’s husband uses it occasionally borne on the shoulders of the most vulnerable, the most when it is not convenient for him to sleep with her. She needy and, in the views of the Tories, the people least must choose whether to stay there or pay the debt. likely to vote. This is completely cynical and disastrous, Kerry has a rare neuromuscular condition. She lives in particular in poorer areas such as Wales. with her husband, who is her full-time carer and who In Wales, 46% of tenants are affected, versus 31% in also works part time. Their property contains a spare the rest of the UK. Some 60% of people who have been room, but Kerry is now having to pay £58.16 per month inspected since a year last April are now driven into in bedroom tax, although the room is used to store her arrears, so the council has got less money still for repair wheelchair, hoist and shower chair, and is also used by and renewal. We have a situation where money has been 1457 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 17 DECEMBER 2014 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 1458 Sector Size Criteria) Sector Size Criteria) spent on disability changes for flats and houses and the most disadvantaged people. More than 70,000 those need to be decommissioned. The whole thing is households in Scotland are currently liable for the tax, horrendous. 80% of which are home to a disabled adult. Those are The reason, allegedly, is twofold. One reason is housing the people who already have the least choice about benefit escalation, which has doubled in 10 years, but where they live. They are already living in the cheapest 70% of that is because of private rents going up. We housing available—housing that has been allocated on need more homes. We do not need the Government, as the basis of need, not of household size. they are doing, to use the funding for lending scheme The bedroom tax is making those disabled and through the Bank of England to spend more and more disadvantaged people the scapegoat for the systemic money on mortgages, to inflate the price of existing problems in the housing sector, as well as reducing their houses rather than building new ones. The money to incomes. It is a policy that should never have happened, small business is cut by 40% so wages, productivity and and I hope that people will remember, when the election innovation do not grow. This is a horrendous, cynical comes round, that the Tories, backed up by their little and incompetent business and social experiment that is helpers on the Lib-Dem Benches, were prepared to put going disastrously wrong. disabled people on the front line of austerity cuts. According to the House of Commons Library, the My colleagues and I will be pleased to support the level of under-occupancy in the social sector is 10.2% Opposition motion today, but I have to ask those on the versus 15.7% in the private rented sector and 49% in the Labour Front Bench what took them so long. It was owner-occupied sector. It is being said that people in only in September 2013 that Labour announced that it social housing should not have homes. The reason why would repeal this pernicious piece of legislation, and that rate is so low, of course, is that we build two-bedroom reports in The Guardian on 25 October suggest that the or three-bedroom houses and then the kids grow up and Scottish Labour leader was actively prevented from there is a part-empty home for them to be able to come criticising the bedroom tax for a year prior to that while back and see mum and dad or whoever. Then people die Labour made up its mind. and those houses are recirculated. That is why that housing is efficiently used. In the owner-occupied sector that does not happen, of course, but the Conservatives Sheila Gilmore: I understand why the hon. Lady do not care about these people on estates who need wants to make those remarks, but I find it extraordinary stable communities to build stable futures and jobs, and that she should suggest that we did not speak out security for all of us. The whole thing is a complete against the bedroom tax. We voted for various amendments disgrace. in Committee and we voted against the Bill’s Third Reading, so it is not true to say that we did not vote We know that two thirds of the people affected are against the bedroom tax. disabled. The Government are pretending that everything they are doing is right, but in fact they are hitting people in many different ways. For example, a couple Dr Whiteford: I did not say that Labour Members did with two children in which the woman is earning £10,000 not vote against the bedroom tax; I was talking about and the man is earning £25,000 will now be losing what was alleged in the report in The Guardian on £9,417 unless they separate. The Government have set 25 October. If that is true, it is a shocking indictment— in train incentives for families to break up as well as [Interruption.] That is what I said. stripping them bare of their money. I am pleased that the Scottish Government have The bedroom tax is one of the most horrendous taken action that has fully mitigated the effect of the examples of the Tories ripping the food out of the bedroom tax for those affected this year and in the next mouths of the poorest to the extent that, at Christmas financial year. I understand that, as of next week, the time, they have to go to food banks. In Swansea, we are section 63 orders will be in force to allow local authorities really being hit. The amount of money going to public to make discretionary payments—as they have been servants has been frozen and the amount going into the doing for some months on the basis of assurances—to public sector is going down. The amount of money in ensure that no one in Scotland will lose out. I am the local economy has been massively reduced. On the relieved that tenants will no longer be experiencing benefits side, tax credits for people on low wages are hardship or accruing rent arrears due to the bedroom being cut, as is housing benefit. We are seeing desperate tax, but we should make no mistake that while it remains people being driven into the hands of loan sharks and on the statute book, legal liability will remain with the having to use food banks. tenants. Moreover, the £35 million that the Scottish This new Dickensian society that the Tories have Government have allocated to mitigate the bedroom tax created must be ended, and I hope that we will soon see this year has had to be found from other devolved the advent of a new, stronger Labour Government who budgets at a time when public spending is under pressure. will deliver a strong, united Britain in place of the weak, So this is far from being an elegant or sustainable divided future that the Tories are heralding. solution, and it is interesting to note that the Welsh Assembly has refused to go down a similar route. 3.36 pm The issues underlying the problems with the bedroom tax are the chronic shortage of social housing and the Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): Once serious mismatch between our existing housing stock again, we are debating the bedroom tax—the policy that and the needs of present-day tenants. In Scotland, I believe will come to define this Tory-Liberal Government research by the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and their four-year-long assault on people with low has found that the implementation costs of the bedroom incomes who live with disabilities and health problems. tax exceed the projected savings by around £10 million— The bedroom tax has caused real hardship for some of money that could have been reinvested in social housing. 1459 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 17 DECEMBER 2014 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 1460 Sector Size Criteria) Sector Size Criteria) [Dr Whiteford] which is hardly a massive amount of money, but the latest figure is £2.79 per day. So when we say that people I recognise that the Government want to cut the are confronted with the choice of paying the bedroom housing benefit bill, but squeezing disabled tenants is a tax or paying for food, we know that the research is vicious way to do that. When we look closely at the demonstrating that for a significant number of people increases in housing benefit over the past 10 years, we that means spending even less on food. see that almost a third of the UK increase is attributable to London alone. By contrast, in Scotland the total cost of housing benefit has increased by 22% in inflation- Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) adjusted terms over 10 years, but the increase has been (Lab): A constituent of mine has had a row with her much lower in the social rented sector, at only 6% over daughter, who has moved out, and wants the bedroom 10 years. Housing benefit inflation is being driven by to be left available for her daughter when she comes out-of-control rent increases in the private sector, a home. In the meantime, as she waits for her daughter to problem that is most extreme in the London area. come home, she eats nothing but sandwiches, because she has to pay the bedroom tax. Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab) rose— Stephen Twigg: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for Dr Whiteford: I will not give way again. raising that issue, and I have encountered countless The problem is most extreme in the London area, so examples like that in my constituency. I am grateful to if the Government want to save money, they should the registered social landlords in my constituency— address it instead of scapegoating disabled social tenants. Riverside housing, Liverpool Mutual Homes and Liverpool Taking money out of the budgets of low-income households Housing Trust—for providing me with up-to-date will not make more housing available, will not curb the information ahead of today’s debate. Let me run through rent increases and will not tackle overcrowding in the some of what they have told me, some of which is areas of very high demand. different from what we heard from the Minister. I As well as being a bad policy, the bedroom tax is, accept that the impact of this policy is different in above all, a nasty and vindictive policy. It does not different parts of the country, but I am speaking about surprise me that the Tories have imposed it on us, but it what I have been told by the RSLs in my constituency. is shameful that not one of the Scottish Liberal Democrats I am told that there is a significant increase in current is here today to defend their Government’s policy, which tenant rent arrears. Riverside housing told me that they pushed through when it came before the House in those affected by the bedroom tax are twice as likely to the first place. This is supposed to be the season of good be in arrears with the rent as those not affected by it. will, but there is a distinct lack of Christmas cheer LMH and LHT tell me that there has been an increase among the people still dealing with the financial in the number of empty properties—there are more consequences of this fiasco of a policy. As the Scottish void properties. They say that that is linked mostly to Liberals scramble to save their seats in the run-up to prospective tenants either choosing to wait for a suitable- May, I hope that people in Scotland will remember who sized property to meet their housing need or simply let the Tories do this to our most vulnerable citizens. being unable to afford the rent if under-occupancy is They know that it is a failed policy—that is why they applicable, given their own family circumstances. Thirdly, will not defend it—and it needs to be consigned to the housing associations are struggling to let some of their scrap heap. lower demand properties, as applicants are unable to make up the shortfall in rent. One of the consequences, 3.41 pm certainly in Liverpool, is that the average re-let period has increased for those two housing associations from Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op): 27 days to 40 days—in other words, properties are left When the Minister spoke at the beginning of the debate, empty, so rental income declines for RSLs. he accused the Labour party of contriving to scare. I have to say to him that that is a gross insult to my On the shift to the private sector, the experience in constituents, who feel very strongly about this issue. In Liverpool is very different from the figures that the one ward in my constituency, Norris Green, more than Minister shared with the House. Riverside housing tells 1,000 tenants are directly affected by the bedroom tax, me that of those who have moved, 30% have moved and in total 2,500 people are affected across my constituency. from the social rented sector as a result of the bedroom With all due respect to the hon. Members for Henley tax into the private sector. As my hon. Friends have (John Howell) and for South Derbyshire (Heather Wheeler), said, that is often more expensive to the public purse to whom I listened carefully, the scale of the challenge because the level of housing benefit paid out in the in a constituency such as mine is completely different private sector is higher, as private rents tend to be from what they described in their constituencies. higher. An interesting piece of work has been undertaken, I shall conclude by saying something about discretionary with those directly affected by the bedroom tax, called housing payments. Last year, Liverpool spent £2.5 million the Real Life Reform report. It is being constantly on over 9,000 DHP awards. It spent all the money updated, and its latest research shows that one in eight allocated by the Government, and it topped it up—there of those involved have used a food bank at least once in simply was not enough. The same thing is on course to the past three months. One of the most concerning happen again. The scale of need in a constituency such findings in the Real Life Reform research is that people as mine, in a city such as Liverpool, cannot be met by who are having to pay the bedroom tax are spending the amount of money provided in DHP. We have no less on food—on average, about 10% less; the typical assurance that those housing payments are there for the spend on food in September 2013 was £3.28 a day, long term. 1461 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 17 DECEMBER 2014 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 1462 Sector Size Criteria) Sector Size Criteria) A much more intelligent and straightforward policy the family relationship has broken up, that does not is advocated in today’s motion, which recognises the count. If someone has a soldier son or daughter in the hardship that this cruel tax has created. It recognises Army who sometimes comes home, that does not count that it has led to an increase in household debt, and that either. it has hit the poorest, the most vulnerable, and disabled There are many reasons why we are concerned about people. I make an appeal, even at this late stage, for the bedroom tax. I am also very much concerned about Government Members to come through the Lobby with discretionary housing payment. The Government say us this afternoon so that we can repeal this cruel tax. that they have set aside £30 million for that, but people will still lose benefits, with an impact of £100 million. Several hon. Members rose— People on disability living allowance will receive £2.51 extra a week, but they will lose £14 a week in housing benefit Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. because of the bedroom tax. So 230,000 disabled people Members tend to forget that when they accept interventions who receive disability living allowance will lose an average and thus increase the time limit for their speech by a of £728 every year in housing benefit. Those figures are minute, they deprive their colleagues of the opportunity substantial. We must work together to ensure that those to speak. I have to reduce the time limit to three who need the most help do not lose out. With that in minutes. I call Jim Shannon. mind, I wholeheartedly support the motion.

3.46 pm 3.50 pm Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Thank you Madam Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): Deputy Speaker. [Interruption.] Can I just say to the Minister who led for the Government that his statements were very thin? They lacked any Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. If hon. Members sense of compassion. He wanted to debate numbers wish to complain they will not speak at all. If the hon. and affordability, but that showed that he does not Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) really care about the impact on the people affected. takes four minutes her colleagues will not get a chance I think that probably comes from the Secretary of State, to speak. Is this a question of being selfish or of being so I am sorry to say that about the Minister, because I reasonable? Mr Shannon. think that he set out to do his job with compassion. However, this policy clearly has no compassion built Jim Shannon: Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. It into it, apart from those parts forced on the Government is a pleasure to add my comments to this debate. by Opposition attacks, because it was even worse when We have discussed this issue before, as hon. Members it started. have said. It is something that our constituents bring to The policy is punitive, and it is clearly designed to be our attention, and they express concern and anxiety so. In the context of modern family structures, it is clear about it. We have to highlight again in the Chamber the that families dissipate much earlier than they used to, fact that it affects the most vulnerable people in society: and young people increasingly want their independence, parents, those suffering with disabilities, and the elderly. leaving parents who are not yet 60 with extra rooms that I should like to give the Northern Ireland perspective. they are expected to give up, which often means moving As we all know, the legislation comes straight from out of their community. That is the effect of this policy. Westminster to Northern Ireland, and the devolved There is a housing problem, with public housing Administration and our Minister are responsible for its stock being too low. Governments have not built enough implementation. Earlier this year, my party took the public housing stock. As far as I am concerned, this initiative in the Northern Ireland Assembly to set aside basically comes down to a deliberate attack on people some £18 million in our block fund money to address in hardship. There has actually been a 27% increase in the bedroom tax. That has been held up by the talks housing benefit applications in the two authorities I process, which is ongoing at this moment. My party represent, and a lot of that is because people are in opposes the bedroom tax in this Chamber, and in work—we have heard the great boast about the fall in Northern Ireland, where we have control of it, if the the number of people on the claimant register—but legislation gets beyond the talks process. they are not working in a way that allows them to pay We can see how this issue affects families. We can see all their bills without claiming tax credits and housing the problems for foster parents; for disabled families benefit. That is what I have seen in my constituency with a carer; and for families with two children of surgeries over the last period. different genders, who are now required to share a The solution is very simple: we need to build more room. Some 66% of existing Northern Ireland Housing public housing to rent. That is clearly the priority, and I Executive tenants and 62% of working-age housing hope it will be taken up by the next Labour Government. benefit recipients come into the category of under-occupiers, We need to build houses that people in the public sector according to information and facts in The Guardian can rent, and we need to build them in such a way that earlier this year. Indeed, 38% of current NIHE working-age there are smaller houses they can go to if they wish to housing benefit recipients under-occupy by two rooms move, because at the moment that cannot happen. or more. The bedroom tax is a massive issue, and we I tried to ask the Minister—he would not let me oppose it. An article in The Belfast Telegraph has stuck intervene—how many of the 820,000 spare rooms have in my mind. It said that in fact been given up. The answer, it turns out, is 4.5%. “officially, foster children don’t count as real so if yours has When it comes to effectiveness, this policy is a failure. It his/her own room, that’s also deductible…if your son or daughter does not work. Around 25,000 fewer people now have only spends a few nights a week with you because’ spare bedrooms, according to the Government. 1463 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 17 DECEMBER 2014 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 1464 Sector Size Criteria) Sector Size Criteria) [Michael Connarty] revised on each occasion it has reported on this because of the rise in the number of people in the private rented In addition, there is the allocation system. Most sector, weak wage growth, and rent inflation that has authorities now have priorities for the homeless, for been higher than expected. movers and for first-time applicants. What is happening is that homeless single people are demanding to move 3.56 pm into apartment blocks that were designed for the elderly, Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): In March and social dissonance is growing because they cannot 2013, two weeks before the bedroom tax came into live side by side. That is another aspect of this policy force, I secured an Adjournment debate to highlight the being forced on people by the Government. Single problems that this cruel and unworkable policy would people would have taken an extra bedroom, but now create for some of the people in my city—those who they do not have that option and have to live within were least able to afford it. I highlighted which households their means. Therefore, my pensioners are coming to me would be affected, with two thirds including someone to say that people are being inappropriately housed in with a disability, one third being families with children, buildings designed for single pensioners. It is a punitive more than a fifth being working households on low system and it must end. wages, and many having no spare room at all. They were families where older children needed their own 3.53 pm room and a quiet place to do their homework, couples who needed to sleep separately because they were caring Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): The first for a disabled partner, or separated parents who wanted thing I want to address is the claim that all the Government to have their children to stay at weekends. For people in are trying to do is make the situation in the social rented Nottingham, the bedroom tax would mean having to sector the same as that in the private rented sector. I find, on average, an extra £11 a week if they had one have revisited the debates we had when the Bill was in more room than they were allowed, or £22 a week if Committee and found not a single mention of that they had two. Perhaps that is not much to a Government argument, so it is not the case that I have forgotten. Minister, but for someone on low pay or out of work it Strangely enough, it was not the prime motivation for is the difference between eating or going hungry, turning the legislation. Rather, it is one of the arguments that on the fire or sitting in the cold, borrowing money to were made after the Government realised that the other pay the rent or going into arrears. arguments were not holding up. Back in March 2013, I was conjecturing about what Of course those arguments are not the same. There is would happen to those affected by the bedroom tax—but a big difference between someone taking up a new now we know. My local Labour council and its arm’s private rented sector tenancy and knowing what size length management organisation, Nottingham City Homes, property they are looking for, as in fact has been the have worked hard to try to support those hit by the case since 1989—it was not introduced by the Labour bedroom tax. However, by June 2014, 2,046 of the 3,445 Government—and someone being told that the house Nottingham households hit were in arrears, owing an they have lived in for 10, 15 or 20 years is now deemed average of £218.71. This year, 1,393 tenants have been to be too big for them and that they will have to start awarded discretionary housing payments, but they live paying extra for it right away. If this argument was in anxiety, worried that it could be withdrawn. The about people refusing to make a reasonable move, that council is drawing on its own financial resources to might be a different matter. That would be more comparable support those affected because the allocation of £965,000 to the private rented sector. is not enough to meet the level of need. The hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) included The Government argue, as did the Lib Dem Minister an amendment in his Bill which was initially proposed who replied to my debate 21 months ago, that these by the Opposition. Our earlier amendment went to the people should simply move into smaller properties, but House of Lords and there was ping-pong on it. his own impact assessment said that tenant mobility Unfortunately, the hon. Gentleman, who supported it was limited—as was the Government’s intention. His at the time, could not get his colleagues to join him, or plan—their plan—to cut housing benefit relied specifically this would have been put right at the outset. on the inability of tenants to move, balancing the books If we want to be fair to the private rented sector, on the backs of poor and vulnerable people. perhaps we should look at other ways in which we could Nottingham City Homes has worked with tenants make the two sectors the same. However, the Government affected by the bedroom tax, but only 97 tenants—2.9%— are not quite so enthusiastic about improving quality or were able to downsize in the year to April 2014. That security of tenure in the private rented sector, or looking compares with 81 homes freed up for families in the at longer tenancy periods or limiting rent rises in the previous year under the Right Size project. So this private rented sector. The Labour Government did that flagship policy has made no difference to tackling under- with things such as the decent homes standard, while in occupation. The truth, as we know, is that it was never Scotland there was the Scottish housing quality standard. about that. It is about cuts and taking money from the We want to equalise the sectors. There are many ways in households least able to afford it, at the same time as which we could do that, but the bedroom tax is not the handing out tax cuts to millionaires. right one. People in Nottingham—people across this country— We are told that housing benefit is not rising and know that we cannot trust the Lib Dems, who are now there has been some sort of saving. I know the Prime wringing their hands having supported the Tories’legislation Minister no longer seems to be quite so keen on the every step of the way. Only a Labour Government will Office for Budget Responsibility, but it has said that its scrap this wretched tax. Next May cannot come soon forecasts for housing benefit spend have had to be enough. 1465 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 17 DECEMBER 2014 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 1466 Sector Size Criteria) Sector Size Criteria) 3.59 pm Friend the Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves), and couples who cannot share a room. Those whose Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): Every homes have been adapted are also affected: 35,000 such time we debate the bedroom tax, it is clear that it is not houses have been adapted, at an average cost of £6,700. achieving what Ministers said it would. As costs rise for The £234 million cost to local authorities is now of landlords and more is spent on discretionary housing danger of being written off because those families are payments, as even the hon. Member for South Derbyshire being forced out of their homes. That is another example (Heather Wheeler) described, the bedroom tax is not of Tory welfare waste. only not saving what was predicted, but, as the Minister for Employment claimed on BBC 5 Live in March, it is Children with high or moderate care needs are exempted not about saving money anyway, but about making from the bedroom tax, but not those with high-rate mobility. better use of the housing stock. The bedroom tax is The Minister for Disabled People said that overnight carers clearly failing to achieve that when just 5.9% of affected have been exempted. That is true for overnight carers households have downsized. That is hardly surprising, for adults, but it is not true for overnight carers for given the mismatch between the stock available and the children, or for resident carers. number of families who are under-occupying, as has Despite all that, the Prime Minister said in the House been highlighted by speaker after speaker. From Aberdeen on 6 March last year that disabled people were protected to St Ives, from Liverpool to the north-east of England, from the bedroom tax. That is simply not the case. As where the number of families with spare rooms is larger hon. Members have mentioned, nor are separated families; than the number overcrowded families by three to one, non-resident parents with their children visiting, whom such a mismatch means that people simply cannot move. my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North West The Minister for Disabled People claimed that housing (John Robertson) mentioned; those at risk of domestic waiting lists are falling, and implied that that was violence; or the bereaved, who enjoy a 12-month so-called because of the bedroom tax. May I tell him that it has period of grace, which will be reduced to three months nothing to do with the bedroom tax? Waiting lists have under universal credit. been coming down because the eligibility criteria for It is not just individuals who are suffering. Registered housing have been tightened. social landlords are experiencing a loss of rent and are left with arrears and voids, as my hon. Friend the Meanwhile, individuals have experienced massive Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) pointed hardship, as my colleagues have described. Some 220,000 out. That means that their credit rating and their ability families with children, 60,000 carers and 330,000 disabled to borrow cost-effectively, and therefore to build the people have been affected by this pernicious tax. Most new homes that we need, are damaged. It is an utterly have lost £14 a week, or a total of £1,260 to date. People illogical policy. under-occupying by two or more rooms have lost considerably more—£25 a week—and disabled people, Government Members said that the situation was the who also lose £14 a week, have so far lost a total of same as for the local housing allowance in the private £415.8 million as a result of the bedroom tax. That is a rented sector. That point was made first by the right disgraceful hit on disabled people and their households. hon. Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry), and then by the hon. Member for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng), As a result—[Interruption.] I am coming on to who might want to stop playing “Candy Crush” now, discretionary housing payments, and the Minister for and a number of other Members. Let us be clear about Disabled People will want to listen when I do. Two-thirds the differences between the two markets and about how of those affected spent less than £40 a week on food, long the situation has pertained. As my hon. Friend the and less than £20 a week on fuel; according to the Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) rightly Disability Benefits Consortium, 12% have used food pointed out, we have had size criteria in the private banks, and that figure rises to 15% for those hit by other sector since 1989, so they were not first introduced cuts to welfare payments; two-thirds have struggled to under Labour as Government Members suggested. pay their rent; and only 41% have been able to pay their bedroom tax in full, while 20% cannot pay it at all. In the social sector, housing is allocated based on need. That is not the case in the private sector, in which, As a result, not only have some people got into without criteria, people could theoretically rent any arrears, but many more have gone into debt. The Real property at all. As many Opposition Members have Life Reform research, which my hon. Friend the Member pointed out, the local housing allowance was not introduced for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg) mentioned, on a retrospective basis, and it covered pensioners. shows that 74.3% of the families it is following are now Ministers have chosen to exclude pensioners from the in debt. They owe an average a shocking £3,971, which bedroom tax, and they have to recognise that pensioners is up 71.8% on the debt they had before the bedroom under-occupy the majority of stock. The policy is therefore tax came in. That must be shameful and worrying to doomed to fail, and the local housing allowance is not Ministers. They have rightly expressed concerns about directly comparable with it. rising personal debt; yet their policy is causing it. Those The Minister mentioned discretionary housing payments, people have experienced rising personal debt, but it is but they are clearly not the answer. They are temporary, true that their weekly repayments are lower. However, and by definition they are discretionary. As my hon. that is because credit periods have been extended and Friend the Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne extended to the point at which nearly half those followed Begg), the Chair of the Work and Pensions Committee, by the Real Life Reform research say that they have no pointed out, for some families the idea of a discretionary idea how they will ever pay off their debt. payment is completely perverse given that they are The system is riddled with injustices and cruel perversities living in circumstances that they simply can do nothing for those affected by this tax, such as those who need about. What is more, as the Chartered Institute of space for special equipment, as described by my hon. Housing has pointed out, discretionary housing payments 1467 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 17 DECEMBER 2014 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 1468 Sector Size Criteria) Sector Size Criteria) [Kate Green] money by taking it from pension funds—indeed, Labour has quite a record of taxing pension funds—but I am are not always properly advertised, and some local not convinced that that is the place to find money for authorities are discouraging people from applying or welfare. The third measure Labour proposed is ending appealing. Some are treating disability living allowance, the employee shareholder scheme which, given that it for example, as income when calculating entitlement, wants to implement the policy in 2015-16, is rather which hits the people affected doubly hard. puzzling as the policy costs nothing in 2015-16. In other Larger cities have had to apply for additional funds words, the whole £0.5 billion is either raided from for discretionary housing payments—so, it would seem, pension funds or does not exist at all. has South Derbyshire—or had to use their own resources. The second question that we hoped would be answered Some authorities that had apparently underspent now is why it is fair to apply this principle to the private say that they need more money. Redbridge wants to rented sector and not to social tenants. In other words, carry forward its underspend, Barking says it will spend during all its time under the local housing allowance in full by the end of the year and Harrow says it will scheme, Labour was perfectly content for private sector spend £41,000 more. Eight councils account for £1.2 million tenants to pay for extra bedrooms, but not social tenants. of failure to spend, and Wandsworth for nearly half of When the shadow Secretary of State was briefly in the that. Some £30 million more than originally planned Chamber and we intervened to ask that question, she has had to be allocated through DHPs to cover the cost gave two reasons. The first was that the local housing of foster carers, and the administrative costs to local allowance was not retrospective. On that basis, do Labour authorities alone amount to £1 million. Members think it is okay to say that people in new How are people responding to the pressures? I heard social tenancies should pay for a spare bedroom? They it argued today, but without the basis of any evidence, are not saying that at all, so clearly they are inconsistent. that the bedroom tax was encouraging people to get The hon. Lady’s second argument was absolutely into work, but there is no evidence that it is doing that, bizarre. She said that people in social housing tend to or, if it is, that it is getting them off housing benefit. have secure tenancies while those in the private rented One reason for that is self-evident: given that two thirds sector tend not to. That presumably means that private of those affected are sick, disabled or carers, it is very rented sector tenants are more vulnerable than social difficult for them to get into work or increase their tenants, yet Labour is willing to ask private tenants to hours. What is more, Ministers have previously suggested pay for a spare bedroom, and not social tenants. Utterly that people could take in lodgers, but people might not incoherent. feel safe taking a stranger into their home—I know I The third thing I waited for in the hon. Lady’s speech— would not—and many landlords will not allow lodgers just like her leader who forgot the deficit, she forgot to at all. It is not possible for people to move, because say how Labour would pay for this policy—was a word there are no suitable homes in many parts of the country that never passed her lips: overcrowding. She did not and many landlords will not allow people to be rehoused mention the plight of overcrowded people once, and we if they are in arrears. heard case studies of people affected by these measures The Kafkaesque proportions of this policy are beyond during the debate—[Interruption.] what we would have imagined even from this Government. It is perverse, cruel, unfair and unworkable, and it is Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. time that it was scrapped. That will be the first action of People seem to be talking about all sorts of things a Labour Government, and for half a million households around the Chamber. The Minister ought to heard. it cannot come soon enough. Steve Webb: Case studies were mentioned, including 4.9 pm one from the shadow Secretary of State who then forgot The Minister for Pensions (Steve Webb): Unlike the to tell the House that discretionary housing payments shadow Secretary of State I have listened to every were covering the shortfall. Let me share an example of speech in this debate in the hope that three questions a previously overcrowded family. Suzanna lived in a would be answered—this is a Labour motion, and Labour four-bedroom home in south Yorkshire when this measure Members have three questions to answer. First, how was introduced, and decided to downsize. She joined they would pay for this motion, which we recognise the HomeSwapper scheme to find a more appropriate would cost in the order of £0.5 billion a year? The property and said: Minister for Disabled People completely demolished “I was impressed with the quantity of matches that HomeSwapper the hon. Lady’s argument about where the money would provided…the lady I swapped with…had needed to move for a come from. The Leader of the Opposition said that long time but her landlord had been unable to move her. She Labour would not make any unfunded promises, but we desperately needed the space for her overcrowded family.” have one before us today. The bulk of the money to pay That is the sort of thing this policy is helping to achieve, for this motion will allegedly come from “ensuring that but the voice of overcrowded tenants is not being heard the building trade pays tax”, from which Labour claims in this debate. we will get £380 million. It does not seem to be aware, however, that we have done that already. In the autumn Lilian Greenwood rose— statement 2013, measures to take effect in April 2014 will raise £400 million a year, so the bulk of that money Steve Webb: I will give way to the hon. Lady because has already gone. she mentioned the situation in her constituency. Perhaps The second point that was mentioned is reversing the she will explain why Nottingham applied for extra cash stamp duty reserve tax charge, which is money from from the Government, was given an extra £0.5 million, pension funds and savers. It is true that we can get and did not spend it. 1469 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 17 DECEMBER 2014 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 1470 Sector Size Criteria) Sector Size Criteria) Lilian Greenwood: The Minister is wrong. Nottingham We heard from some of my hon. Friends about how city has spent the whole allocation that it was given by their local authorities have been very proactive in this the Government, and is having to find extra resources area. We heard how, in Henley and in South Derbyshire, to help people. The Minister mentioned HomeSwapper, local authorities had substantially reduced the number but that existed before the bedroom tax was introduced. of people affected by working with tenants. That is His Government cut money and funding for local exactly the sort of thing that we want to see. authorities that were pursuing projects to encourage My hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew people to downsize, including £75,000 that supported George), to whom I pay tribute on this issue, raised Nottingham’s projects. whether further mitigations were needed. Let me come to that point. We have a second motion before us, the Steve Webb: Nottingham was allocated discretionary Government’s amendment, which sets out the areas on housing payment and was given an additional £0.5 million, which we agree. The areas where we agree are clear: we and of that combined amount it spent 78%. On the question agree that it is unfair to say to private tenants and of HomeSwapper, this policy has prompted more people low-paid workers not on benefit that they have to pay to look to downsize and swap. That is an entirely good for a spare room, but that for social tenants there thing, as it makes better use of the housing stock. should be a blanket exemption. The coalition parties I want to respond briefly to some of the contributions also agree that the blanket application of the policy to the debate. The Chair of the Select Committee, the would not have been fair. That is why we have exempted hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg), pensioners, foster families, serving personnel living at initially made the claim that the spare room subsidy home and disabled children who cannot share a room. measure was forcing people into the private rented In addition, we accepted that further mitigation would sector. When my hon. Friend the Minister for Disabled be needed. That is why large amounts of discretionary People pointed out that the rate of moves into the housing payments have been found. That is why an private rented sector had fallen, she then said in response additional fund to bid for was found in 2013-14, and that people are not moving to the private rented sector why additional money was found for rural areas. There because rents are unaffordable. Well, it cannot be both. is agreement between us on that. It has to be one or the other. In the light of the summer report that indicated the The hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) impact of the policy, the Liberal Democrats took the referred to the position of foster carers, but we have view that further mitigation was needed. Our view is recognised this particular need and provided an exemption that mitigation is needed for disabled people, adults for foster carers. The hon. Member for Glasgow North who cannot share a bedroom, and those who do not West (John Robertson) referred to his constituents as have an alternative offer of accommodation. That point the most affected by the policy, whereas the policy— is made very clearly in the amendment. I hope my hon. Friends will support the amendment. John Robertson: I never said that. It is very easy to put down a simple motion saying, “Let’s have some free money. Let’s spend half a billion Steve Webb: Yes he did. The policy is bought out in pounds reversing a policy, with no idea where the Scotland. money will come from. Let’s not address the issue of overcrowding. Let’s not address the issue of the welfare John Robertson: On a point of order, Madam Deputy budget. Let’s simply promise the voters more money Speaker. I wonder whether you could protect this Back and hope that they will buy it.” Evidence shows that Bencher from a Minister making a statement that I they will not buy it. I therefore urge the House to accept never made. I never said we were the worst area of all. our amendment. I said we were one of the worst. That is completely Question put (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the different. [Interruption.] original words stand part of the Question. Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. The House divided: Ayes 266, Noes 298. The hon. Gentleman knows that that is not strictly a Division No. 120] [4.19 pm point of order. He wished to correct the record and he has done so. He has also taken up more time in this AYES short debate. Abbott, Ms Diane Begg, Dame Anne Abrahams, Debbie Benn, rh Hilary Steve Webb: I give way. Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Berger, Luciana Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Betts, Mr Clive Dame Anne Begg: Will the Minister tell my Select Alexander, Heidi Blackman-Woods, Roberta Committee when we can expect the Government’s response Ali, Rushanara Blears, rh Hazel to our report on housing costs, which was published in Allen, Mr Graham Blomfield, Paul April? Anderson, Mr David Blunkett, rh Mr David Ashworth, Jonathan Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Austin, Ian Brennan, Kevin Steve Webb: Even as we speak, officials are working Bailey, Mr Adrian Brown, rh Mr Gordon on it and the hon. Lady will have it shortly. Bain, Mr William Brown, Lyn The hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) Balls, rh Ed Brown, rh Mr Nicholas suggested that the comparison with the private rented sector Banks, Gordon Brown, Mr Russell was something of an afterthought. Uncharacteristically Barron, rh Kevin Bryant, Chris for her, she had not read the impact assessment we Bayley, Hugh Buck, Ms Karen published in 2012, in which we made that very point. Beckett, rh Margaret Burden, Richard 1471 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 17 DECEMBER 2014 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 1472 Sector Size Criteria) Sector Size Criteria) Burnham, rh Andy Gwynne, Andrew Mearns, Ian Shannon, Jim Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hain, rh Mr Peter Miliband, rh Edward Sharma, Mr Virendra Campbell, rh Mr Alan Hamilton, Mr David Miller, Andrew Sheridan, Jim Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hamilton, Fabian Mitchell, Austin Shuker, Gavin Carswell, Douglas Hanson, rh Mr David Moon, Mrs Madeleine Skinner, Mr Dennis Caton, Martin Harman, rh Ms Harriet Morden, Jessica Slaughter, Mr Andy Champion, Sarah Harris, Mr Tom Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Smith, Angela Chapman, Jenny Havard, Mr Dai Morris, Grahame M. Smith, Nick Clark, Katy Healey, rh John (Easington) Smith, Owen Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hepburn, Mr Stephen Mudie, Mr George Spellar, rh Mr John Clwyd, rh Ann Hermon, Lady Munn, Meg Straw, rh Mr Jack Coaker, Vernon Heyes, David Murphy, rh Mr Jim Stringer, Graham Coffey, Ann Hillier, Meg Murphy, rh Paul Stuart, Ms Gisela Connarty, Michael Hilling, Julie Murray, Ian Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Cooper, Rosie Hodge, rh Margaret Nandy, Lisa Tami, Mark Cooper, rh Yvette Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Nash, Pamela Thomas, Mr Gareth Corbyn, Jeremy Hoey, Kate O’Donnell, Fiona Thornberry, Emily Crausby, Mr David Hood, Mr Jim Onwurah, Chi Timms, rh Stephen Creagh, Mary Hopkins, Kelvin Osborne, Sandra Trickett, Jon Creasy, Stella Hosie, Stewart Owen, Albert Turner, Karl Cruddas, Jon Howarth, rh Mr George Paisley, Ian Twigg, Derek Cryer, John Hunt, Tristram Pearce, Teresa Twigg, Stephen Cunningham, Alex Irranca-Davies, Huw Percy, Andrew Umunna, Mr Chuka Cunningham, Mr Jim Jackson, Glenda Perkins, Toby Vaz, rh Keith Cunningham, Sir Tony James, Mrs Siân C. Phillipson, Bridget Curran, Margaret Jamieson, Cathy Pound, Stephen Vaz, Valerie Danczuk, Simon Jarvis, Dan Powell, Lucy Walley, Joan Darling, rh Mr Alistair Johnson, rh Alan Qureshi, Yasmin Watson, Mr Tom David, Wayne Johnson, Diana Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Watts, Mr Dave Davidson, Mr Ian Jones, Graham Reed, Mr Jamie Weir, Mr Mike Davies, Geraint Jones, Helen Reed, Mr Steve Whiteford, Dr Eilidh De Piero, Gloria Jones, Mr Kevan Reeves, Rachel Whitehead, Dr Alan Denham, rh Mr John Jones, Susan Elan Reynolds, Emma Williams, Hywel Dobson, rh Frank Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Reynolds, Jonathan Williamson, Chris Docherty, Thomas Kane, Mike Riordan, Mrs Linda Wilson, Phil Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Ritchie, Ms Margaret Winnick, Mr David Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Keeley, Barbara Robertson, Angus Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Doran, Mr Frank Kendall, Liz Robertson, John Wishart, Pete Doughty, Stephen Khan, rh Sadiq Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Wood, Mike Dowd, Jim Lammy, rh Mr David Rotheram, Steve Woodcock, John Doyle, Gemma Lavery, Ian Roy, Mr Frank Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Dromey, Jack Lazarowicz, Mark Roy, Lindsay Wright, David Dugher, Michael Leslie, Chris Ruane, Chris Wright, Mr Iain Eagle, Ms Angela Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Eagle, Maria Lewis, Mr Ivan Sarwar, Anas Tellers for the Ayes: Edwards, Jonathan Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Sawford, Andy Tom Blenkinsop and Efford, Clive Love, Mr Andrew Seabeck, Alison Nic Dakin Elliott, Julie Lucas, Caroline Ellman, Mrs Louise Lucas, Ian NOES Engel, Natascha MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Esterson, Bill Mactaggart, Fiona Adams, Nigel Boles, Nick Evans, Chris Mahmood, Mr Khalid Afriyie, Adam Bottomley, Sir Peter Farrelly, Paul Mahmood, Shabana Aldous, Peter Bradley, Karen Field, rh Mr Frank Malhotra, Seema Amess, Mr David Brady, Mr Graham Fitzpatrick, Jim Mann, John Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Brake, rh Tom Flello, Robert Marsden, Mr Gordon Bacon, Mr Richard Brazier, Mr Julian Flint, rh Caroline McCabe, Steve Baker, rh Norman Bridgen, Andrew Flynn, Paul McCann, Mr Michael Baker, Steve Brine, Steve Fovargue, Yvonne McCarthy, Kerry Baldry, rh Sir Tony Brokenshire, James Francis, Dr Hywel McClymont, Gregg Barclay, Stephen Browne, Mr Jeremy Galloway, George McDonagh, Siobhain Barker, rh Gregory Bruce, Fiona Gapes, Mike McDonald, Andy Baron, Mr John Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Gardiner, Barry McDonnell, John Barwell, Gavin Buckland, Mr Robert Gilmore, Sheila McFadden, rh Mr Pat Bebb, Guto Burns, Conor Glass, Pat McGovern, Alison Beith, rh Sir Alan Burns, rh Mr Simon Glindon, Mrs Mary McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Bellingham, Mr Henry Burrowes, Mr David Godsiff, Mr Roger McInnes, Liz Benyon, Richard Burt, rh Alistair Goodman, Helen McKechin, Ann Beresford, Sir Paul Burt, Lorely Greatrex, Tom McKenzie, Mr Iain Berry, Jake Byles, Dan Green, Kate McKinnell, Catherine Bingham, Andrew Cairns, Alun Greenwood, Lilian Meacher, rh Mr Michael Binley, Mr Brian Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Griffith, Nia Meale, Sir Alan Blunt, Crispin Carmichael, Neil 1473 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 17 DECEMBER 2014 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 1474 Sector Size Criteria) Sector Size Criteria) Cash, Sir William Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mordaunt, Penny Soubry, Anna Chishti, Rehman Hayes, rh Mr John Morris, Anne Marie Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Chope, Mr Christopher Heald, Sir Oliver Morris, David Spencer, Mr Mark Clappison, Mr James Heath, Mr David Morris, James Stanley, rh Sir John Clark, rh Greg Heaton-Harris, Chris Mosley, Stephen Stephenson, Andrew Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hemming, John Mowat, David Stevenson, John Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hendry, Charles Mundell, rh David Stewart, Bob Collins, Damian Herbert, rh Nick Munt, Tessa Stewart, Iain Colvile, Oliver Hinds, Damian Murray, Sheryll Stewart, Rory Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hoban, Mr Mark Murrison, Dr Andrew Streeter, Mr Gary Crabb, rh Stephen Hollingbery, George Neill, Robert Stride, Mel Davey, rh Mr Edward Hollobone, Mr Philip Newmark, Mr Brooks Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Davies, David T. C. Holloway, Mr Adam Newton, Sarah Sturdy, Julian (Monmouth) Hopkins, Kris Nokes, Caroline Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Davies, Glyn Horwood, Martin Norman, Jesse Swinson, Jo Davies, Philip Howell, John Nuttall, Mr David Swire, rh Mr Hugo de Bois, Nick Hughes, rh Simon O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Syms, Mr Robert Dinenage, Caroline Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Offord, Dr Matthew Thornton, Mike Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hunter, Mark Ollerenshaw, Eric Thurso, rh John Doyle-Price, Jackie Hurd, Mr Nick Osborne, rh Mr George Timpson, Mr Edward Drax, Richard Jackson, Mr Stewart Ottaway, rh Sir Richard Tomlinson, Justin Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain James, Margot Paice, rh Sir James Tredinnick, David Ellis, Michael Javid, rh Sajid Parish, Neil Truss, rh Elizabeth Ellison, Jane Jenkin, Mr Bernard Patel, Priti Turner, Mr Andrew Elphicke, Charlie Jenrick, Robert Paterson, rh Mr Owen Tyrie, Mr Andrew Eustice, George Johnson, Gareth Pawsey, Mark Uppal, Paul Evans, Graham Johnson, Joseph Penning, rh Mike Vaizey, Mr Edward Evans, Jonathan Jones, Andrew Penrose, John Vara, Mr Shailesh Evans, Mr Nigel Jones, rh Mr David Perry, Claire Vickers, Martin Evennett, Mr David Jones, Mr Marcus Pickles, rh Mr Eric Walker, Mr Charles Fabricant, Michael Kawczynski, Daniel Pincher, Christopher Walker, Mr Robin Fallon, rh Michael Kelly, Chris Poulter, Dr Daniel Wallace, Mr Ben Farron, Tim Kirby, Simon Prisk, Mr Mark Walter, Mr Robert Featherstone, rh Lynne Knight, rh Sir Greg Randall, rh Sir John Ward, Mr David Field, Mark Kwarteng, Kwasi Redwood, rh Mr John Watkinson, Dame Angela Foster, rh Mr Don Lancaster, Mark Rees-Mogg, Jacob Fox,rhDrLiam Latham, Pauline Reevell, Simon Webb, rh Steve Francois, rh Mr Mark Laws, rh Mr David Reid, Mr Alan Wharton, James Freeman, George Leadsom, Andrea Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Wheeler, Heather Freer, Mike Lee, Jessica Robathan, rh Mr Andrew White, Chris Fullbrook, Lorraine Leech, Mr John Robertson, rh Sir Hugh Whittaker, Craig Fuller, Richard Lefroy, Jeremy Robertson, Mr Laurence Whittingdale, Mr John Gale, Sir Roger Leigh, Sir Edward Rosindell, Andrew Wiggin, Bill Garnier, Sir Edward Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Ruffley, Mr David Willetts, rh Mr David Garnier, Mark Lewis, Brandon Russell, Sir Bob Williams, Stephen Gauke, Mr David Lewis, Dr Julian Rutley, David Williamson, Gavin Gibb, Mr Nick Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Sandys, Laura Willott, Jenny Gilbert, Stephen Lidington, rh Mr David Scott, Mr Lee Wilson, Mr Rob Glen, John Lilley, rh Mr Peter Selous, Andrew Wollaston, Dr Sarah Goodwill, Mr Robert Lloyd, Stephen Shapps, rh Grant Wright, rh Jeremy Graham, Richard Lopresti, Jack Sharma, Alok Wright, Simon Grant, Mrs Helen Lord, Jonathan Shelbrooke, Alec Yeo, Mr Tim Gray, Mr James Luff, Sir Peter Simpson, Mr Keith Young, rh Sir George Grayling, rh Chris Lumley, Karen Skidmore, Chris Zahawi, Nadhim Green, rh Damian Macleod, Mary Smith, Chloe Greening, rh Justine Main, Mrs Anne Smith, Henry Tellers for the Noes: Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Maude, rh Mr Francis Smith, Julian Harriett Baldwin and Griffiths, Andrew May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, Sir Robert Dr Thérèse Coffey Gummer, Ben Maynard, Paul Gyimah, Mr Sam McCartney, Jason Question accordingly negatived. Hague, rh Mr William McCartney, Karl Halfon, Robert McIntosh, Miss Anne Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 31(2)), Hames, Duncan McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick That the proposed words be there added. Hammond, rh Mr Philip McPartland, Stephen The House divided: Ayes 300, Noes 262. Hammond, Stephen McVey, rh Esther Hancock, rh Matthew Menzies, Mark Division No. 121] [4.32 pm Hancock, Mr Mike Metcalfe, Stephen Hands, rh Greg Miller, rh Maria AYES Harper, Mr Mark Mills, Nigel Adams, Nigel Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Harrington, Richard Milton, Anne Afriyie, Adam Bacon, Mr Richard Harris, Rebecca Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Aldous, Peter Baker, rh Norman Hart, Simon Moore, rh Michael Amess, Mr David Baker, Steve 1475 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 17 DECEMBER 2014 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 1476 Sector Size Criteria) Sector Size Criteria) Baldry, rh Sir Tony Francois, rh Mr Mark Lancaster, Mark Rees-Mogg, Jacob Barclay, Stephen Freeman, George Latham, Pauline Reevell, Simon Barker, rh Gregory Freer, Mike Laws, rh Mr David Reid, Mr Alan Baron, Mr John Fullbrook, Lorraine Leadsom, Andrea Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Barwell, Gavin Fuller, Richard Lee, Jessica Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Bebb, Guto Gale, Sir Roger Leech, Mr John Robertson, rh Sir Hugh Beith, rh Sir Alan Garnier, Sir Edward Lefroy, Jeremy Robertson, Mr Laurence Bellingham, Mr Henry Garnier, Mark Leigh, Sir Edward Rosindell, Andrew Benyon, Richard Gauke, Mr David Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Ruffley, Mr David Beresford, Sir Paul Gibb, Mr Nick Lewis, Brandon Russell, Sir Bob Berry, Jake Gilbert, Stephen Lewis, Dr Julian Rutley, David Bingham, Andrew Glen, John Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Sandys, Laura Binley, Mr Brian Goodwill, Mr Robert Lidington, rh Mr David Scott, Mr Lee Blunt, Crispin Graham, Richard Lilley, rh Mr Peter Selous, Andrew Boles, Nick Grant, Mrs Helen Lloyd, Stephen Shapps, rh Grant Bradley, Karen Gray, Mr James Lopresti, Jack Sharma, Alok Brady, Mr Graham Grayling, rh Chris Lord, Jonathan Shelbrooke, Alec Brake, rh Tom Green, rh Damian Luff, Sir Peter Simpson, Mr Keith Brazier, Mr Julian Greening, rh Justine Lumley, Karen Skidmore, Chris Bridgen, Andrew Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Macleod, Mary Smith, Chloe Brine, Steve Griffiths, Andrew Main, Mrs Anne Smith, Henry Brokenshire, James Gummer, Ben Maude, rh Mr Francis Smith, Julian Browne, Mr Jeremy Gyimah, Mr Sam Maynard, Paul Smith, Sir Robert Bruce, Fiona Hague, rh Mr William McCartney, Jason Soubry, Anna Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Halfon, Robert McCartney, Karl Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Buckland, Mr Robert Hames, Duncan McIntosh, Miss Anne Spencer, Mr Mark Burns, Conor Hammond, rh Mr Philip McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stanley, rh Sir John Burns, rh Mr Simon Hammond, Stephen McPartland, Stephen Stephenson, Andrew Burrowes, Mr David Hancock, rh Matthew McVey, rh Esther Stevenson, John Burt, rh Alistair Hancock, Mr Mike Menzies, Mark Stewart, Bob Burt, Lorely Hands, rh Greg Metcalfe, Stephen Stewart, Iain Byles, Dan Harper, Mr Mark Miller, rh Maria Stewart, Rory Cairns, Alun Harrington, Richard Mills, Nigel Streeter, Mr Gary Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Harris, Rebecca Milton, Anne Stride, Mel Carmichael, Neil Hart, Simon Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Cash, Sir William Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Moore, rh Michael Sturdy, Julian Chishti, Rehman Hayes, rh Mr John Mordaunt, Penny Swales, Ian Chope, Mr Christopher Heald, Sir Oliver Morris, Anne Marie Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Clappison, Mr James Heath, Mr David Morris, David Swinson, Jo Clark, rh Greg Heaton-Harris, Chris Morris, James Swire, rh Mr Hugo Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hemming, John Mosley, Stephen Syms, Mr Robert Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Henderson, Gordon Mowat, David Thornton, Mike Collins, Damian Hendry, Charles Mundell, rh David Thurso, rh John Colvile, Oliver Herbert, rh Nick Munt, Tessa Timpson, Mr Edward Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hinds, Damian Murray, Sheryll Tomlinson, Justin Crabb, rh Stephen Hoban, Mr Mark Murrison, Dr Andrew Tredinnick, David Davey, rh Mr Edward Hollingbery, George Neill, Robert Truss, rh Elizabeth Davies, David T. C. Hollobone, Mr Philip Newmark, Mr Brooks Turner, Mr Andrew (Monmouth) Holloway, Mr Adam Newton, Sarah Tyrie, Mr Andrew Davies, Glyn Hopkins, Kris Nokes, Caroline Uppal, Paul Davies, Philip Horwood, Martin Norman, Jesse Vaizey, Mr Edward de Bois, Nick Howell, John Nuttall, Mr David Vara, Mr Shailesh Dinenage, Caroline Hughes, rh Simon O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Vickers, Martin Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Offord, Dr Matthew Walker, Mr Charles Doyle-Price, Jackie Hunter, Mark Ollerenshaw, Eric Walker, Mr Robin Drax, Richard Huppert, Dr Julian Osborne, rh Mr George Wallace, Mr Ben Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Hurd, Mr Nick Ottaway, rh Sir Richard Walter, Mr Robert Ellis, Michael Jackson, Mr Stewart Paice, rh Sir James Ward, Mr David Ellison, Jane James, Margot Parish, Neil Watkinson, Dame Angela Elphicke, Charlie Javid, rh Sajid Patel, Priti Webb, rh Steve Eustice, George Jenkin, Mr Bernard Paterson, rh Mr Owen Wharton, James Evans, Graham Jenrick, Robert Pawsey, Mark Wheeler, Heather Evans, Jonathan Johnson, Gareth Penning, rh Mike White, Chris Evans, Mr Nigel Johnson, Joseph Penrose, John Whittaker, Craig Evennett, Mr David Jones, Andrew Perry, Claire Whittingdale, Mr John Fabricant, Michael Jones, rh Mr David Pickles, rh Mr Eric Wiggin, Bill Fallon, rh Michael Jones, Mr Marcus Pincher, Christopher Willetts, rh Mr David Farron, Tim Kawczynski, Daniel Poulter, Dr Daniel Williams, Stephen Featherstone, rh Lynne Kelly, Chris Prisk, Mr Mark Williamson, Gavin Field, Mark Kirby, Simon Pugh, John Willott, Jenny Foster, rh Mr Don Knight, rh Sir Greg Randall, rh Sir John Wilson, Mr Rob Fox,rhDrLiam Kwarteng, Kwasi Redwood, rh Mr John Wollaston, Dr Sarah 1477 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 17 DECEMBER 2014 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 1478 Sector Size Criteria) Sector Size Criteria) Wright, rh Jeremy Zahawi, Nadhim Jarvis, Dan Phillipson, Bridget Wright, Simon Tellers for the Ayes: Johnson, rh Alan Pound, Stephen Yeo, Mr Tim Harriett Baldwin and Johnson, Diana Powell, Lucy Young, rh Sir George Dr Thérèse Coffey Jones, Graham Qureshi, Yasmin Jones, Helen Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Jones, Mr Kevan Reed, Mr Jamie NOES Jones, Susan Elan Reed, Mr Steve Abbott, Ms Diane Dobson, rh Frank Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Reeves, Rachel Abrahams, Debbie Docherty, Thomas Kane, Mike Reynolds, Emma Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Reynolds, Jonathan Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Keeley, Barbara Riordan, Mrs Linda Alexander, Heidi Doran, Mr Frank Kendall, Liz Ritchie, Ms Margaret Ali, Rushanara Doughty, Stephen Khan, rh Sadiq Robertson, Angus Allen, Mr Graham Dowd, Jim Lammy, rh Mr David Robertson, John Anderson, Mr David Doyle, Gemma Lavery, Ian Rotheram, Steve Ashworth, Jonathan Dromey, Jack Lazarowicz, Mark Roy, Mr Frank Austin, Ian Dugher, Michael Leslie, Chris Roy, Lindsay Bailey, Mr Adrian Eagle, Ms Angela Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Ruane, Chris Bain, Mr William Eagle, Maria Lewis, Mr Ivan Ruddock, rh Dame Balls, rh Ed Edwards, Jonathan Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Joan Banks, Gordon Efford, Clive Love, Mr Andrew Sarwar, Anas Barron, rh Kevin Elliott, Julie Lucas, Caroline Sawford, Andy Bayley, Hugh Ellman, Mrs Louise Lucas, Ian Seabeck, Alison Beckett, rh Margaret Engel, Natascha MacNeil, Mr Angus Shannon, Jim Begg, Dame Anne Esterson, Bill Brendan Sharma, Mr Virendra Benn, rh Hilary Evans, Chris Mactaggart, Fiona Sheridan, Jim Berger, Luciana Farrelly, Paul Mahmood, Mr Khalid Shuker, Gavin Betts, Mr Clive Field, rh Mr Frank Mahmood, Shabana Skinner, Mr Dennis Blackman-Woods, Roberta Fitzpatrick, Jim Malhotra, Seema Slaughter, Mr Andy Blears, rh Hazel Flello, Robert Mann, John Smith, Angela Blomfield, Paul Flint, rh Caroline Marsden, Mr Gordon Smith, Nick Blunkett, rh Mr David Flynn, Paul McCabe, Steve Smith, Owen Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Fovargue, Yvonne McCann, Mr Michael Spellar, rh Mr John Brennan, Kevin Francis, Dr Hywel McCarthy, Kerry Straw, rh Mr Jack Brown, rh Mr Gordon Galloway, George McClymont, Gregg Stringer, Graham Brown, Lyn Gapes, Mike McDonagh, Siobhain Stuart, Ms Gisela Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Gardiner, Barry McDonald, Andy Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Brown, Mr Russell Gilmore, Sheila McDonnell, John Tami, Mark Bryant, Chris Glass, Pat McFadden, rh Mr Pat Thomas, Mr Gareth Buck, Ms Karen Glindon, Mrs Mary McGovern, Alison Thornberry, Emily Burden, Richard Godsiff, Mr Roger McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Timms, rh Stephen Burnham, rh Andy Goodman, Helen McInnes, Liz Trickett, Jon Byrne, rh Mr Liam Greatrex, Tom McKechin, Ann Turner, Karl McKenzie, Mr Iain Campbell, rh Mr Alan Green, Kate Twigg, Derek Campbell, Mr Ronnie Greenwood, Lilian McKinnell, Catherine Twigg, Stephen Caton, Martin Griffith, Nia Meacher, rh Mr Michael Umunna, Mr Chuka Champion, Sarah Gwynne, Andrew Meale, Sir Alan Vaz, rh Keith Chapman, Jenny Hain, rh Mr Peter Mearns, Ian Vaz, Valerie Clark, Katy Hamilton, Mr David Miliband, rh Edward Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hamilton, Fabian Miller, Andrew Walley, Joan Clwyd, rh Ann Hanson, rh Mr David Mitchell, Austin Watson, Mr Tom Coaker, Vernon Harman, rh Ms Harriet Moon, Mrs Madeleine Watts, Mr Dave Coffey, Ann Harris, Mr Tom Morden, Jessica Weir, Mr Mike Connarty, Michael Havard, Mr Dai Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Cooper, Rosie Healey, rh John Morris, Grahame M. Whitehead, Dr Alan Cooper, rh Yvette Hepburn, Mr Stephen (Easington) Williams, Hywel Corbyn, Jeremy Hermon, Lady Mudie, Mr George Williamson, Chris Crausby, Mr David Heyes, David Munn, Meg Wilson, Phil Creagh, Mary Hillier, Meg Murphy, rh Mr Jim Winnick, Mr David Creasy, Stella Hilling, Julie Murphy, rh Paul Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Cruddas, Jon Hodge, rh Margaret Murray, Ian Wishart, Pete Cunningham, Alex Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Nandy, Lisa Wood, Mike Cunningham, Mr Jim Hoey, Kate Nash, Pamela Woodcock, John Cunningham, Sir Tony Hood, Mr Jim O’Donnell, Fiona Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Onwurah, Chi Curran, Margaret Hopkins, Kelvin Wright, David Osborne, Sandra Danczuk, Simon Hosie, Stewart Wright, Mr Iain Darling, rh Mr Alistair Howarth, rh Mr George Owen, Albert Paisley, Ian David, Wayne Hunt, Tristram Tellers for the Noes: Pearce, Teresa Tom Blenkinsop and Davidson, Mr Ian Irranca-Davies, Huw Perkins, Toby Nic Dakin Davies, Geraint Jackson, Glenda De Piero, Gloria James, Mrs Siân C. Denham, rh Mr John Jamieson, Cathy Question accordingly agreed to. 1479 Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social 17 DECEMBER 2014 1480 Sector Size Criteria) Resolved, Food Banks That this House regrets that the Government took over a housing benefit bill which was out of control, and without reform would have been more than £26 billion in 2014-15; notes that the 4.43 pm reforms the Government has implemented have brought housing Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab): I beg to benefit spending under control and helped to tackle over-crowding move, and better manage housing stock; further notes that the Coalition has protected vulnerable groups through £165 million of discretionary That this House notes that the number of people using food housing payments in 2014; notes that, following the interim banks, according to the Trussell Trust, has increased from 41,000 evaluation of the policy, the part of the Coalition led by the in 2009-10 to 913,000 in 2013-14, of whom one third are children; Deputy Prime Minister has proposed reforms to introduce other recognises that over the last four years prices have risen faster formal exemptions to the policy, including where claimants have than wages; further notes that low pay and failings in the operation not been made a reasonable alternative offer of accommodation; of the social security system continue to be the main triggers for and believes that the Opposition’s failure to support the Government’s food bank use; and calls on the Government to bring forward wider welfare reforms, including the wholesale abolition of this measures to reduce dependency on food banks and tackle the cost policy, is financially unsustainable, and would put at risk savings of living crisis, including to get a grip on delays and administrative of nearly £50 billion over the present Parliament, as well as problems in the benefits system, and introduce a freeze in energy leaving people languishing in over-crowded accommodation. prices, a national water affordability scheme, measures to end abuses of zero hours contracts, incentives for companies to pay a living wage, an increase in the minimum wage to £8 an hour by the end of the next Parliament, a guaranteed job for all young people who are out of work for more than a year and 25 hours-a-week free childcare for all working parents of three and four year olds. I welcome the Minister for Civil Society to his place in what is, I think, his first debate from the Front Bench, but I note that the Environment Secretary is not taking part in this debate. She transferred a question about food poisoning away from her Department just this week. She does not want to talk about food aid today, but she is—[HON.MEMBERS: “Welcome!”] I would like to welcome the Environment Secretary to her place. She transferred a question about food poisoning away from her Department last week. This week she does not want to take part in a debate about food aid, yet hers is the lead Department. I just wonder what part of food policy she thinks she is responsible for. Since the last Opposition-day debate on food banks a year ago, things have worsened. Over the past six months, there has been a 38% increase in the number of people seeking food aid from the Trussell Trust’s 420 food banks. The Trussell Trust expects the full-year numbers to be over 1 million. The report of the all-party parliamentary inquiry into hunger in the UK, entitled “Feeding Britain”, published last week, said that 4 million people are at risk of going hungry, 3.5 million adults cannot afford to eat properly, and half a million children live in families that cannot afford to feed them. Nobody would choose to go to a food bank if they had any other option. Let us be clear about that. Research conducted by Oxfam, the Child Poverty Action Group, the Church of England and the Trussell Trust and published in November, entitled “Emergency Use Only”, indicates the truth of what many of us who have visited our local food banks have seen. People are acutely embarrassed to have to go to a food bank. They feel ashamed to have to accept such help, but the research is clear: people turn to food banks as a last resort, when all other coping strategies have failed. The Trussell Trust says that 45% of people who visit the food banks that it operates do so because of problems with the social security system, a third because of delays to determining their benefit claims, and the rest because of benefit changes and sanctions, often unfairly applied, which have left them with no money.

Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend agree that it is not only people on benefits, but what we would call the working poor, who have to use food banks? That is where the increases are. 1481 Food Banks17 DECEMBER 2014 Food Banks 1482

Maria Eagle: My hon. Friend is correct. I know that Maria Eagle: Well, it would be nice if a Minister from the two Trussell Trust food banks in my own constituency the DWP would acknowledge that delays from the have figures similar to the national average, which show Department were the cause of the problem. The hon. that over a fifth—22% in my constituency—of people Gentleman is referring to— who resort to food banks for an emergency food package are in work. Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab) rose—

Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): My hon. Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ Friend will be aware of the statistics from the Big Help Co-op) rose— project in Knowsley, which covers her constituency and mine: 23% of those who receive vouchers to go to the Maria Eagle: I shall just finish responding to the hon. food bank are in work—in other words, the working Member for City of Chester (Stephen Mosley), then I poor. Even more alarmingly, 45% of the vouchers issued will give way. I had not realised that I was quite so involve children. popular. The hon. Gentleman claims that the delays are being tackled, but the DWP’s target is to determine Maria Eagle: My right hon. Friend is correct. The a claim in 16 days. If someone has no money and they figures for the Knowsley food bank, which cover his have to wait 16 days for their benefit claim to be constituency and mine, are pretty similar to the figures determined, and then wait for the cheque to arrive, they for the south Liverpool food bank: benefit delays 28.8%, are going to have to go to a food bank. I do not think benefit changes 14.5%, and low income—in other words, that those targets, whether they are being met or not, poverty pay—22%. This is a problem that he and I are anywhere near good enough, and nor did the report, recognise from our constituencies, and it needs to be “Feeding Britain”, which suggested that claims ought addressed. to be cleared within five days. Why are DWP Ministers not doing something about David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): this? They appear indifferent. The Minister for Employment How are those figures collected? has said that “there is no robust evidence linking food bank usage to welfare Maria Eagle: The Trussell Trust collects figures from reform.” the vouchers which one has to have to obtain the food That is because she refuses to collect such evidence. aid. They are filled in by the professional or the person Either the Ministers are indifferent and incompetent, or who refers the individual to the food bank. That is how they are indifferent and venal. In reality, they do not they are collected. care enough about the problems to take any action.

Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): Is my Andrew Gwynne: Is my hon. Friend also concerned hon. Friend aware of a worrying trend that I am now by the Government’s view that food banks should have seeing in my advice surgeries, which the local citizens a degree of permanence? I commend the work of re:dish, advice bureau also told me is a problem—people are which distributes food in the Reddish area of my not going to the food banks because they do not have constituency. When representatives of re:dish attended the means to cook any food as they cannot afford the a meeting with the previous Minister for the third gas or electricity? sector, the hon. Member for Braintree (Mr Newmark), they were appalled by the view that their voluntary Maria Eagle: My hon. Friend is correct. His experience efforts should be there for the long term. is similar to mine. I know of people who go to food banks in my constituency who hand food back that has Maria Eagle: We ought to take note of the experience to be cooked, and ask for food that can be prepared of other jurisdictions where food banks have become without the necessity for cooking. That is anecdotal; I part of the social security system. Professor Liz Dowler do not know what the percentage is. There is no tick on of the university of Warwick carried out a piece of the food voucher for that, but that is indeed happening, research—long-delayed, I might add—for the Department in my experience and that of my hon. Friend. for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. When she It is truly shocking that, according to the Trussell Trust’s commented on it on the “Today”programme, she dismissed figures, 45% of the ever-increasing need for food aid—or the idea of using surplus food as a solution to hunger, 60% according to the numbers in “Feeding Britain”—is saying: caused primarily by the actions of the Department for “There is no evidence from any country that has systemised Work and Pensions, yet the Department has done nothing using food waste to feed hungry people that it is effective. It is since our debate last year to tackle the benefit delays better to reduce” and changes that are causing so many of the problems. I that waste. I am concerned that what has happened in notice that no DWP Ministers are on the Front Bench Germany and Canada could happen here—that is, that today for this debate. Why has the DWP done nothing? we could institutionalise dependence on food banks. Policy makers on either side of the House should be Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): The hon. very careful before embarking on a policy that Lady must be aware that the number of claims being institutionalised food bank use in this country. processed on time by the DWP has gone up to 93%, compared with 85% in 2010, so action is being taken. Mark Lazarowicz: Is it not clear that this is not She is right to say that delays are the biggest problem, just about delay and error, and that what is happening so far as food banks are concerned, but things are is partly a direct result of a deliberate policy? Benefit improving. sanctions in particular have been a major cause of 1483 Food Banks17 DECEMBER 2014 Food Banks 1484

[Mark Lazarowicz] encourage zero-hours contracts, insecurity in the workplace and low pay? That has been the consequence of their people going without food, sometimes for lengthy periods. policies, leading to more use of food banks. That is not accidental; it is deliberate and it needs to change. Maria Eagle: I agree completely with my hon. Friend. The number of people in precarious, low-paid employment Maria Eagle: I cannot disagree with my hon. Friend. is increasing. According to the TUC, since the financial There is a deliberate attempt by DWP Ministers in this crisis hit only one in 40 new jobs is full-time, 36% are Government to sanction and stigmatise people who are part-time and 60% involve self-employment. Only a on benefit. quarter of those on zero-hours contracts work a full-time The cost of living crisis means that people are more week, and one in three reports having no regular, reliable than £1,600 a year worse off since 2010. Living standards income. No wonder many of them end up at food banks, will be lower at the end of this Parliament than they despite being in work. This is happening in Britain—the were at its beginning. Prices have risen faster than wages sixth richest country on the planet—in the 21st century. for 52 of the 54 months that our Prime Minister has It is a scandal that is only made worse by the fact that been in office. There are more working families living in our economy is growing again and the number of people poverty in the UK today than families with nobody in in work is increasing. The Conservative party never work—for the first time since records began. The cost stops telling us that this is what success looks like—I of some food essentials has gone up in the past six years would hate to see its version of failure. by as much as 20%. Families on the lowest incomes spent almost a quarter more on food last year than they Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): The hon. did six years ago—they were already the families who Lady is quoting extensively from the “Feeding Britain” spent the largest share of their income on food. People report, but she is missing the key point of that report, are now buying fewer, cheaper calories; they have been which said that it was completely wrong to play party forced to trade down to less healthy, less nutritious, politics with such an important issue. What the people more processed foods. who use food banks deserve is for us all to work together to make sure we can find a lasting solution so It is not just food that has been going up in price: since that nobody is left behind as we move out of this 2010, people have been paying £300 more on average for recession. energy to heat their homes and keep their lights on; water bills have gone up, with one in five people struggling Maria Eagle: Some 45% to 60% of people’s primary to pay them; the cost of housing keeps rising, with reason for going to food banks is benefit delays. It is not renters now paying on average over £1,000 a year more party politics for Labour Members to ask why DWP than in 2010; and for those with children, the rising Ministers are not tackling this absolute scandal. price of child care is making it harder and harder to take on work. Sarah Newton rose— Yet during this time the Government have done nothing to address the cost of living crisis—and they plan much Maria Eagle: I will not give way again. worse. Robert Chote, chair of the Office for Budget Responsibility, said plans in the autumn statement now Can there be a more damning verdict on the indifference, take incompetence or venality of Ministers in this heartless Government, who so love to sneer and scapegoat the “total public spending to its lowest share of GDP in 80 years.” victims of their back-to-the-1930s ideology, than the The Institute for Fiscal Studies says the Government’s hunger that now stalks our land and is increasing? plans would take Thousands of volunteers across our nations who help “total government spending to its lowest level as a proportion of to operate food banks and who donate food to them are national income since before the last war”. outraged about the plight of our fellow citizens forced This Tory plan to recreate 1930s Britain, along with to rely on food aid. Unlike the Government, they at its hunger, low pay and non-existent rights at work, least refuse to sit idly by and watch the suffering of the coincides with changes to the labour market making it men, women and children affected without doing something tougher to make ends meet, even for someone who is in positive to alleviate it. I thank them all and pay tribute work. The “Feeding Britain” report says that 25% of to them for their fantastic effort, but it should not be food bank users are in work and the Trussell Trust says necessary in this day and age for 1 million people to rely that 22% are: increasingly, being in work is no longer a on food aid. guarantee against going hungry in Britain today. David McAuley, the Trussell Trust chief executive, said that Several hon. Members rose— “we’re…seeing a marked rise in numbers of people coming to us with ‘low income’ as the primary cause of their crisis. Incomes for Maria Eagle: I will give way once more to an Opposition the poorest have not been increasing in line with inflation and Member, and then to a Government Member. many, whether in low paid work or on welfare, are not yet seeing the benefits of economic recovery.” Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): Volunteers He is correct. at my local food bank collection centre in Glasgow told me that the main reason for the surge in the use of food Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): My hon. Friend banks in the past year is the number of people on mentioned that the Government have done nothing to exceptionally low wages. Is my hon. Friend aware that address the cost of living crisis that so many people the number of people in Scotland, as in many other face, and she rightly talks about low pay. Does she agree regions and nations in the UK, on less than the living that the effect of the Government’s policies has been to wage is rising every month under this Government? 1485 Food Banks17 DECEMBER 2014 Food Banks 1486

Maria Eagle: My hon. Friend makes an important He went on: point. We have already noted the number of people who “There are complex reasons why people use food banks but I are forced to rely on food banks even though they are in think it’s excellent.” work. That is not right in this day and age, and he So there we have it: it is part of this Government’s illustrates that very well with his own experience. strategy to replace the social security safety net, which the Work and Pensions Secretary is demolishing. He Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): We all recognise the is doing this in pursuit of the ambition of the Prime full damage that the Labour Government did to public Minister and the Chancellor to take us back to levels of debt, but there is another area of debt of great concern— public service spending and provision not seen since the household debt, which stacked up radically and significantly 1930s. It is part of this Government’s ideological obsession during the last years of Labour government. Does the with shrinking the state to replace social security with hon. Lady think that that had any impact on what is charity. What a disgrace! happening now? Only by tackling the cost of living crisis can we begin to see the numbers of people relying on food banks Maria Eagle: The reality is that debt is a reason why decline. If things are going to change, the country needs people go to food banks—about 13% do so—but 45% a Labour Government. We will legislate to freeze energy to 60% of people go to food banks because of benefit prices and reform the market to stop energy companies changes, disallowances and sanctions. That is part of from ripping people off. Government policy, and something that the Government could tackle if they had the will, which they clearly do Mr Jeremy Browne (Taunton Deane) (LD): Will the not. They refuse to accept any responsibility, despite the hon. Lady give way? fact that their policies are making the situation worse. They refuse to accept that as a Government they have a Maria Eagle: No. The hon. Gentleman has only just moral obligation to act to alleviate these problems. walked into the Chamber. Just look at what Ministers have said. They show no understanding whatever of how a lack of money affects Mr Browne rose— the lives of people struggling to make ends meet. The welfare reform Minister, Lord Freud, said last summer Maria Eagle: No! He has not even had the courtesy that to be here for the beginning of the debate. “food from a food bank—the supply—is a free good and by definition there is an almost infinite demand for a free good”.— We will introduce a water affordability scheme to [Official Report, House of Lords, 2 July 2013; Vol. 746, c. 1072.] support customers who are struggling, and we will give the regulator tough new powers to curb the excesses of Lord Freud appeared unaware of the fact that people the water companies. We will abolish exploitative zero-hours cannot just turn up at a food bank and get food: they contracts and incentivise companies to pay the living have to be referred, and half of them are referred by wage. That will also help to increase income tax receipts statutory agencies. When pressed on 4 March this year and boost economic growth. in the other place, he opined that Labour will take action on low pay by raising the “clearly nobody goes to a food bank willingly. However, it is very hard to know why people go to them.”—[Official Report, House minimum wage to £8 an hour. We will introduce a of Lords, 4 March 2014; Vol. 752, c. 1215.] compulsory jobs guarantee to get young people and the long-term unemployed off benefits and into paid work. From ignorance to indifference in a few short months—and We will help get parents back into work, too, by he is the Minister for welfare reform. If he really does guaranteeing 25 hours of free child care a week for not know why people go to food banks, I can tell him: it three and four-year-olds, paid for by an increase in the is because they are desperate and have no food to eat bank levy. and no money to buy it. Labour will abolish the bedroom tax, address the The Chancellor, meanwhile, suggested that increased huge delays in benefit payments and ensure that there awareness explained the relentless rise in food bank use. are no more targets for sanctions in jobcentres. We will He told the Treasury Committee in July last year: make housing affordable by increasing supply, building “I think one of the reasons that there has been increased use of 200,000 homes a year by the end of 2020. We will food banks is because people have been made aware of the food support renters by introducing longer-term tenancies bank service through local jobcentres.” and banning rip-off letting fees. The Government Chief Whip last September preferred That is how to tackle the cost of living crisis. That is to suggest that it was the fault of poor people themselves: how to build an economy that works for everyone “There are families who face considerable pressures. Those instead of just a privileged few. That is how to reduce pressures are often the result of decisions they have taken which the number of people relying on food aid, and that is mean they are not best able to manage their finances.”—[Official Report, 9 September 2013; Vol. 567, c. 682.] what the next Labour Government will do. Baroness Jenkin was forced to apologise just last week rose— for suggesting that increased use of food banks was Several hon. Members because: Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con): “Poor people don’t know how to cook”. On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I understand Perhaps the most revealing quote is from the sneerer-in-chief from the Table Office that it has had notice that the himself, the Work and Pensions Secretary, who said in Government intend to publish tomorrow their much- January this year: delayed anti-corruption plan, which was due in June, “I think it’s a positive thing for people to use food banks”. and that the plan has been shared with third parties 1487 Food Banks17 DECEMBER 2014 Food Banks 1488

[Stephen Barclay] right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field). The Government welcome and value their passionate but outside the House, but not with Members. Given the measured approach. We recognise that this is an important Christmas recess and the fact that Members might be issue but also a very complex one. As the recent report leaving this evening, could you give any direction as to by the inquiry showed, the reasons for the use of food why Members are receiving the document after those aid are multi-faceted and often overlap. outside the House? It is also important to put the use of food aid in the UK into its international context. The APPG inquiry Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): I thank noted the development of the use of food aid in other the hon. Gentleman for his very reasonable point. Of western economies. It found that 1,000 food banks are course, I have no responsibility for the actions of the operating in Germany and that one in seven Americans Government, but I am quite sure that those on the now rely on a food bank. Treasury Bench will have heard what he has said. If it is indeed the case that something that should have been It is only right to start by highlighting the inspirational reported first to the House has been published elsewhere, work of volunteers, charities, faith groups and businesses I am sure that Mr Speaker will take a very dim view of in supporting people in need, and the generosity of the that. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman says from a public. I pay tribute to their dedication and passion. sedentary position that it has not been published, but This country has a long tradition of selfless individuals sent to others. If Mr Speaker has an opportunity to providing such help. Much of this support in communities make a ruling on the matter, I am quite sure that he will is led by faith groups, and they have played an active say that matters that ought to be reported to the House role in the APPG report. My predecessors as Minister ought to be reported first to the House, as a matter of for Civil Society and I have met a number of regional courtesy not only to the House, but to the people we are groups of faith leaders to listen to their views on the use elected to represent. of food banks. The way that communities have pulled together shows us all how we can build a bigger, stronger 5.8 pm society. The Minister for Civil Society (Mr Rob Wilson): I David Wright (Telford) (Lab): I echo the Minister by welcome the opportunity to debate this motion and thanking Telford Crisis Network for the work that it thank the hon. Member for Garston and Halewood does on the food bank in Telford, along with a community (Maria Eagle) for welcoming me to the Dispatch Box, if store. He has moved very quickly on to thanking volunteers, not for her good luck wishes. We are fortunate indeed to quite rightly, but can I take him back a step? Why does be informed by the report published last week by the he think there has been such a significant increase in the all-party group. The members of that inquiry, including use of food banks? That is a very simple question. the Bishop of Truro and Members from both sides of the House, have stressed the need to ensure that partisan Mr Wilson: As the report recognised, the reasons politics are put to one side. people are using food banks are very complex and frequently overlap. There is no one reason that explains Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab): Will the growth in their use in the UK or in other parts of the Minister give way? the western world. Mr Wilson: I have barely started. Let me get into my Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ speech a little more, please. Co-op) rose— Likewise, the Archbishop of Canterbury, speaking at the launch of the inquiry report, stressed that a partisan Mr Wilson: I will come to the hon. Gentleman in a approach would not work. I want to honour and respect moment if he will let me make a little more progress, that spirit in my contribution. because I want to talk about a personal experience. Mrs Lewell-Buck: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Last month, I visited a Tesco superstore in my Speaker. The Minister referred to the all-party group constituency to thank shoppers and volunteers for all and said we were all in agreement on various matters their fantastic efforts in supporting the neighbourhood relating to food poverty. He is wrong. We were not in food collection. The collection was held in conjunction agreement; I certainly was not. I was very clear that it is with the Trussell Trust and FareShare, with Tesco topping problems in the Department for Work and Pensions up shoppers’ donations by 30%. that are driving people to food banks. Several hon. Members rose— Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): I appreciate the point that the hon. Lady is making, but it Mr Wilson: I was struck by the generosity of local people is a point of debate, and I am quite sure that she will kindly donating items to help others. By that stage, have an opportunity during the debate to make it. 88 boxes had already been sent to ReadiFood, a food bank in Reading. I have visited ReadiFood and seen Mr Wilson: As I said, I want to honour and respect first hand the incredibly valuable support that it provides. the spirit of the Archbishop of Canterbury in speaking I would like to take this opportunity to acknowledge at the launch. the hard work, commitment and passion of everybody I especially want to recognise the contributions made involved in providing food aid. by my hon. Friends the Members for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) and for Salisbury (John Glen), and the Several hon. Members rose— 1489 Food Banks17 DECEMBER 2014 Food Banks 1490

Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. surplus when more stock is received than was expected— Five people are standing and shouting at the Minister. directly to FareShare. We need to take that further. This [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry is a moral argument, not just a sustainability issue. That McCarthy) will not say that people are not shouting is why my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I when I say they are. If I say they are shouting, they are are convening a meeting with leaders of all major food shouting. If the House wishes to have a proper debate, retailers and other industry representatives. the Minister must be able to make his points, and then people can intervene. When he is ready to take interventions, Robert Flello: On a point of order, Madam Deputy he will make that clear. Speaker. May I elicit your guidance? The motion does not mention food waste; it is about food banks. Food Mr Wilson: I am sorry that hon. Members have not waste is completely irrelevant. listened to my opening comments in trying to make this a sensible and serious debate where, for the sake of all Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Iam our constituents, we put to one side some of our personal grateful to the hon. Gentleman for trying to help me. beliefs. However, I will give way to the hon. Member for When I decide that the Minister is straying from the Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger). motion, I will make sure to tell him so.

Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): Mr Wilson: Thank you for your guidance, Madam I thank the Minister for kindly giving way. I heard what Deputy Speaker; thankfully, you are not taking it from he said about attending a food collection, which obviously Labour Back Benchers. is not the same as visiting a food bank, although he did then say that he had been to a food bank. Will he share We will discuss how more surplus food can be put to with the House how many food banks he has visited good use, including by supporting the work of local and how many food vouchers he has issued to his charities. constituents? Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): Mr Wilson: I have visited food banks in my constituency, May I drag the Minister back to food banks, which this and I obviously hope that all hon. Members have done debate is about? From the Government Front Bench, so in theirs. It is very important that all Members of perhaps he can answer this question: why are many food Parliament know what is going on on the ground in bank users not made aware of the various crisis payments their constituencies, so I advise everyone to take the available to them in different circumstances, and why opportunity to visit their local food bank if they have have even fewer got such payments? May we have some not already done so. fact and less waffle from the Minister, please? I was at the launch of the recent “Feeding Britain” report. The report is a serious contribution to this Mr Wilson: As the hon. Gentleman probably heard debate. It is absolutely vital to tackle food waste and during the last debate, more than 93% of jobseeker’s ensure that surplus food is redistributed. We are determined allowance and employment and support allowance claims to support food retailers, the industry and consumers in are processed on time—at the moment, that means their efforts to do so. There will always be some surplus within 16 days—which is up 7% since 2009-10. When in a resilient supply chain, and we support the industry fully rolled out, universal credit will speed that up in taking forward its work to make surplus food available further. In 2014-15, £94 billion will be spent on working-age to redistribution charities. benefits to support people who are on low incomes or On behalf of the Department for Environment, Food out of work. That is a significant support network for and Rural Affairs, the Waste and Resources Action people who need it. Programme led a working group to encourage food redistribution in the industry. The group discussed the Several hon. Members rose— barriers to surplus food redistribution across the supply chain, and developed possible solutions. As a result, Mr Wilson: I will give way one more time, to the hon. new research case studies and guiding principles were Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin). established in March to enable the industry to redistribute more. Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): I am grateful The UK has taken a lead in Europe on food waste to the Minister. May I give credit to the Greater Maryhill reduction through the Courtauld commitment. I am food bank in my constituency, which does exemplary pleased to say that all major food industry representatives work? It did not exist in 2009, despite the fact that have signed up to that voluntary agreement. It includes unemployment in my constituency was much higher specific targets for food waste reduction, as well as ones than it is now. Can the Minister explain why the use of to encourage food redistribution. Real progress has food banks has gone up by a huge percentage while been made. During the first two phases of Courtauld, unemployment is decreasing, which he reminds us about we prevented 2.9 million tonnes of food from being frequently? wasted, worth £4 billion, and annual UK household food waste decreased by 15%, or 1.3 tonnes, between Mr Wilson: The reasons for people visiting food 2007 and 2012. banks are complex and frequently overlapping. It is It is great to see the lead taken by large retailers such difficult to give one particular reason for the use of food as Tesco and Asda. We hope that more will follow their banks increasing at a time when, as the hon. Lady says, example. I have already mentioned that Tesco is offering unemployment is dropping rapidly in constituencies all support to local communities, and Asda gives its overs—the around the country. 1491 Food Banks17 DECEMBER 2014 Food Banks 1492

[Mr Rob Wilson] Mr Wilson: We are taking action to help hard-working families with food costs. For example, all infant children That brings me to an important part of my speech, in England’s state schools are now entitled to a free on the economy. Our broad policy approach is that meal at school every school day. [Interruption.] economic growth and employment offer the best route to give people a better future and to reduce poverty. Our Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. country has been through the deepest recession in living I have already made it clear that if the Minister says he memory, and the Government inherited a tough fiscal is not giving way, he is not giving way, although he has and economic situation, including the highest structural given way several times. It does not help the debate if deficit of any major advanced country. hon. Members shout at the Minister, because then The Government have a long-term economic plan to nobody can hear the arguments. The hon. Member for secure Britain’s future, and sticking to it is the best way Garston and Halewood (Maria Eagle) made some excellent to improve living standards. Although there is more to and clear arguments, which were heard, and the Minister do, that plan is working, as the Chancellor made clear must have the chance to do the same. in his autumn statement. There are now more people in employment than ever before, and I hope Opposition Mr Wilson: It is disappointing that Labour Members Members will welcome that fact. The economy is growing are trying to drown out my remarks, but I return to the faster than any other in the G7, and we have cut income point that I made at the start of the speech: we need to tax for 26 million people and are freezing fuel duty, engage with this issue in a proper, sensible debate, and I cutting child care bills and providing funding for councils am happy to take interventions, as indeed I have done. to freeze council tax. It is working—disposable income The Government are taking action to help hard-working per capita is rising, and income inequality is down. I families, and disadvantaged children are eligible for free welcome the news this morning that not only are jobs school meals throughout their time at school and college. being created and unemployment is falling, but wages The Healthy Start scheme provides a nutritional safety are rising significantly above inflation. net for pregnant women, new mothers and low-income However, we are not complacent. There are still hard- families throughout the UK, and it is helping half a working families facing challenging circumstances, which million families to buy milk, fruit, and fresh and frozen is why we continue to spend £94 billion a year on vegetables. The school fruit and vegetables scheme provides working-age benefits to support millions of people who a daily piece of fruit or some vegetables on school days are, for instance, unemployed or on low income. More to children in key stage 1 in primary schools and than 93% of jobseeker’s allowance and employment and nurseries attached to eligible primary schools in England. support allowance claims are now processed on time, I thank the inquiry for its hard work in preparing the within 16 days, which as I said earlier is up 7% since recent report. This is an important issue, and the report 2009-10. Universal credit will further speed up that contains a series of recommendations that should be processing, and the Department for Work and Pensions carefully considered by the Government, the food industry, will do more to raise awareness of short-term benefit civil society and others. We will continue to engage with advances. That work will include providing more the inquiry as it takes the proposals forward. As Minister information about such advances to claimants both for Civil Society, I acknowledge once again the inspirational online and in jobcentres. We will also update staff support provided by volunteers, charities, faith groups guidance on those advances and remind staff of the and businesses to help people, because too often such process for considering them. support goes unrecognised. The use of food banks understandably generates passion and debate from Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): The Minister Members across the House, but all will join me in spoke about the complexity of the reasons for the recognising the selfless dedication of everyone involved increased use of food banks. I know that he has studied in providing food aid. the report in great detail, so can he tell the House what the top two reasons were? Several hon. Members rose—

Mr Wilson: As I said, the reasons are complex and Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): Order. frequently overlapping. If the hon. Lady has read the It will be obvious to the House that a large number of report herself, she will know what was in it, so I will colleagues are attempting to catch my eye and limited leave her to cogitate on what the top reasons were. time is available. I therefore put a limit of four minutes on Back-Bench speeches. We acknowledge that there is concern about prices. Following Ofwat’s 2014 price review, water bills across England and Wales will reduce by up to 5% before 5.27 pm inflation, which is equivalent to about £20 a customer. I Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): When I was hope that Opposition Members will welcome that cut. elected to this House four years ago, no food banks As I have noted, we are freezing fuel duty, and road fuel operated in my constituency. Now there are two. Every prices are falling—they are at their lowest level since the fortnight at my advice surgery I meet people who are end of 2010. It is also welcome news for consumers that struggling to make ends meet and who find it hard to year-on-year food prices have fallen, with an annual pay the bills, cover the cost of school trips, and pay the rate of inflation for food and non-alcoholic beverages rent. When I became a Member of Parliament I knew of minus 1.7% in the year to November 2014. that many of my constituents had tough lives, but the level of poverty experienced by some in one of the Several hon. Members rose— richest cities in the world is shocking and should shame 1493 Food Banks17 DECEMBER 2014 Food Banks 1494 us all. I am appalled that in 21st-century London some need action on energy prices; and a robust benefits people cannot put food on the table; I am appalled that system that treats people like human beings. Until we some children go to bed hungry. do those things, we will see food bank use continue to rise. Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): Is my hon. The two food banks that now operate from my Friend struck, as I am, by the fact that often people constituency provide much-needed support to many have jobs and are working as hard as they can, yet they people who are in genuine hardship. They are run by still cannot put food on the table? compassionate and inspiring people: Fred Esiri at the Elim Pentecostal Church and Janet Daby at the Whitefoot and Downham Community Food Plus Project. As you Heidi Alexander: I totally agree with my hon. Friend. know, Mr Speaker, just last month the Food Plus Project I am also appalled that some politicians claim that won the Paul Goggins memorial prize for best civil the increased use of food banks is somehow a symptom society initiative to tackle poverty. At the presentation of more food banks being around. In recent weeks, the of the award in Speaker’s House, I was struck by words Education Minister in the other place told us that those of the late Paul Goggins, which were shared with us by who use food banks need to prioritise their spending his son Dom: more effectively, and the Chancellor helpfully suggested “Poverty is an affront to our common humanity. When you see that the increased use of food banks is due to the it you need to roll your sleeves up and do something.” Government advertising them more. That is out of There are people in food banks up and down the touch and insulting. When I hear such comments, I ask country rolling their sleeves up and working to tackle myself whether those who have uttered them have ever poverty, but we in this House must take our responsibilities spoken to a mum who is struggling to feed her children, equally seriously. because I have. Thousands of people visit food banks each week. About two years ago, I started to make referrals to There are thousands more in food poverty who never the Trussell Trust. I remember one woman who came make it, and instead rely on handouts from friends and back to my advice surgery a second time, asking for a family or skip meals altogether. Food banks exist to second food bank voucher. She sat across a desk from address short-term hunger and to help people out of a me, her eyes brimming with tears, embarrassed in front crisis, but it is the Government’s responsibility to ensure of her children. She was humiliated and desperate. that people are not routinely having to rely on charity to Food banks are not about getting a freebie or an easy feed themselves and their family. The alarming rise of option for those who want to save a couple of quid; food banks in one of the richest countries in the world they are the last resort for people who are often dealing should not be brushed under the carpet. We in this with multiple, complex problems such as losing a job on place need to be honest about that. We need to roll our top of a fluctuating mental health problem, or family sleeves up and do everything we can to address it. break-up coupled with a series of outgoings that are simply impossible to manage. 5.33 pm Food banks are as much about people not being able to pay the electricity bill as they are about not being David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): It able to put food on the table. Many of the people I see is a pleasure to speak under your guidance, Mr Speaker. at my advice surgeries tell me stories that reflect what Not one person in this Chamber got into Parliament organisations, such as the Trussell Trust, say are the to make people’s lives a misery and not one person in main reasons for people visiting them: benefit changes this Chamber agrees that people should be hungry out and delays, debt, homelessness, unemployment and there on our streets. [Interruption.] Millions should not underemployment. If we want to reduce food bank be hungry, as has been said. What I want to question is usage, we have to tackle the underlying causes. the validity of the amendment. I have e-mails from the chief executive of the Trussell Trust telling me that Robert Flello: I was waiting for my hon. Friend to he does not have any valid data. [HON.MEMBERS: “What mention sanctions. An older chap came to see me at one amendment?”] The motion. [Interruption.] Sorry, of my surgeries. We had just given him some vouchers, Mr Speaker, I am just trying to find the information because, like her, we also issue food bank vouchers to Opposition Members require and that is wasting my those in desperate need. He had come to see me because time and wasting the House’s time, because we all know he had been sanctioned again—for the third time. He whywearehere. has profound learning disabilities and it takes him Food banks have been around since 2000 and it is a hours to fill in an application form. The Department for good job that they have been. They were actually set up Work and Pensions had sanctioned him because it said under the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and he was not trying hard enough. Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown)—a fact that Labour Members seem to forge, and I welcome the fact that they are there. Heidi Alexander: Recent research shows that benefit Let me go through some of the figures from the Trussell delays and sanctions are two of the main reasons why Trust. In the debate pack, it actually contradicts itself. It people visit food banks. The Minister seemed not to states that in 2014-15 there was a 38% increase—to know that, but we all know it from our advice surgeries. 492,641—on the previous year, but that in 2013-14 the figure was 913,000. Those numbers do not stack up. If we want to tackle more and more people going to food banks, we have to get to grips with the underlying I want to read an excerpt from an e-mail I sent to the causes. We need decent jobs that pay a decent wage; we chief executive of the Trussell Trust: need to build homes that people can afford to live in; we “The last correspondence I had was with Adrian Curtis”— 1495 Food Banks17 DECEMBER 2014 Food Banks 1496

[David Morris] Mr Speaker: It is a regrettable state of affairs, it has to be said, but the Minister has explained his position a food bank network director— with courtesy, for which I thank him. The hon. Member “who told me the only figures you held were regional figures on for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) has put his point on usage and these figures were then divided by the number of food the record, and people will form their own view about banks in the area. He said you do not hold figures for the number the appropriateness of the organisation of matters. We of individuals using the food banks and how often they need to will leave it there. use them and for what reason.” Are we talking about 1 million people starving or 5.38 pm about 1 million meals? I do not want to see any of my constituents starve—not one of them; one person in my Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): In constituency starving is one person too many. However, the limited time available, I would like to draw the I take great exception to party political ploys, when the House’s attention to the activity in my constituency. Opposition have nothing to say. I have never been In Clackmannanshire, we are fortunate that individuals invited to a food bank in my constituency, although I have committed to establishing food banks at The Gate would love to go, yet every time this issue comes up, in Alloa and the drop-in food bank run by Activ8 in there is always a letter from a staged Labour source Sauchie. I have to say a big thank you for the dedication saying that MPs should do something about it. Well, I and foresight of people such as Evelyn Paterson, Val am doing something about it—I am trying to get to the Rose and Sandra Gruar, because without their commitment truth, and the truth is that if hon. Members do not have the situation in Clackmannanshire would be a whole lot accurate data, they do not have an argument. worse, while in Kinross-shire and South Perthshire, part As an MP, I want to know why my constituents are of my constituency, people such as Les Paskin, who starving. I want to know what problems they are facing manages the Perth and Kinross food bank, deserve our and where we can help. As the Minister correctly said, gratitude for a venture described by the Daily Record as we are working with the supermarkets to get food in a “Food lifeline for Crieff”. and to help people in genuine need, but we need accurate I want to put on the record the level of support these data, so we have to be grown up. If Opposition Members operations are providing to my communities. Perhaps do not have accurate data, they have not got an argument. the hon. Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale (David Although I sympathise with them, I do not accept that 1 Morris) can listen and get some of the numbers now. In million people are starving in Britain. If they were, we the first year of its existence, Perth and Kinross food would be up there with the Chinese and the Indians of bank provided 1,573 food parcels. That is three days’ this world, which we plainly are not. I implore hon. food for 2,772 people, including 712 children, and the Members to grow up, get decent and ensure that when equivalent of 25,000 meals. The Gate has delivered they put their choices before the public, they give them 214 food packs, feeding 371 people with 7,745 meals the right figures. between July and September of this year alone. At the end of October, it had supplied 21,700 meals to people Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): On a point of in crisis in the preceding 10 months. That equates to a order, Mr Speaker. I know you have just come into the 35% increase in the number of people supported and a Chair, so I shall be brief. The Secretary of State for 50% increase in the number of meals supplied. The Environment, Food and Rural Affairs was here at the numbers show that 49% are due to benefit delay or start of the debate, but has chosen not to take part, sanction, a figure even greater than the 37% due to while the Minister who I understand is to wind up the poverty or debt. debate was not here for the opening remarks or interventions. Bearing in mind the importance of this Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): A constituent debate, that seems disrespectful to me, as it will seem to came to me on Friday who has been sanctioned for others listening to the debate, not just us as parliamentarians. three months—that is three months without a single Will you give some guidance on the rules governing who penny coming in. He showed me evidence that he had should be here and when? applied for 21 jobs on one website alone in the past three days, but because he could not show that he had Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for handed in his CV in one particular place he was sanctioned. his point of order. I shall be corrected if I am wrong, That is what we are dealing with. Does my hon. Friend but my understanding is that the Minister had another share my disappointment that the Minister will not engagement of a ministerial and parliamentary character acknowledge that? elsewhere on the estate—I think in Westminster Hall.

TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforEnvironment, Gordon Banks: I share my hon. Friend’s concern Food and Rural Affairs (George Eustice) rose— about, and her abhorrence with, what is going on. I am sure that every Opposition Member has had people Mr Speaker: I will come back, but first let us hear coming to their constituency surgeries and delivering what the Minister has to say. that kind of message. It is abhorrent and it must stop. My office in Alloa is the third biggest referrer of George Eustice: I am grateful for this opportunity to those need to the Gate food bank and my constituency explain why I could not be here for the opening comments offices in Alloa and Crieff act not only as drop-off of the hon. Member for Garston and Halewood (Maria points for donations but as collection points for food Eagle). I was indeed representing the Government in a parcels. Let me take the House back a couple of weeks. Westminster Hall on the welfare of greyhounds called We supplied a food parcel from my constituency office by an Opposition Member, as I explained to Madam in Alloa for someone who had prearranged collection. Deputy Speaker before the commencement of the debate. The gentleman came and collected his food parcel and 1497 Food Banks17 DECEMBER 2014 Food Banks 1498 one of my members of staff went out of the office a few ensuring that advisers minutes later only to find him sitting in the street “constantly advise those at risk of the availability, should they outside my office eating a cold tin of spaghetti. He was need it, of interim payments.”—[Official Report, 8 December 2014; that desperate. Vol. 589, c. 633.] We should all agree on that. Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): On sanctions, the report suggests the introduction of My hon. Friend is making a powerful speech about a yellow card system. No one has spoken about it as yet, what is happening in his constituency. I was shocked to but it seems an eminently sensible idea. We all know as hear from Sarah Sidwell, who runs the food bank in constituency MPs that constituents sometimes get into Hull, that she expects a 20% increase in the number of circumstances where there is not necessarily a fair or people coming forward for food parcels in the lead-up black-or-white situation, so introducing some sort of to Christmas. Is he experiencing the same in his yellow card system might be much fairer. constituency? I caution the Opposition against trying to give the Gordon Banks: I have exactly the same expectations impression that there is some huge new fund of money as my hon. Friend. Indeed, later this week I will visit that can be given for this purpose. Every party, so far as one of the food banks in my constituency and I am I can recall from when I was in the Division Lobby, prepared for what they will tell me and for a horror voted for the welfare cap, and if the leaders of both story. parties are also ring-fencing payments to pensioners, it means that benefit payments to working families and so It was not that long ago that a man walked 7 miles to forth are inevitably going to get squeezed. I fully support the Activ8 food bank in Sauchie for a polythene bag of encouraging employers to pay the living wage and, if we food, only to have to walk 7 miles back home to provide can, to raise the minimum wage, but we are all working for his family. I can honestly say that when I was first within tight conditions. elected to this House I never foresaw a time when my constituency offices would be used for such a purpose The report makes recommendations not just to the and would have such a workload. This is a growing Government, but to the food industry. Tackling food problem and we must do something about it. waste is an important issue, and I was slightly surprised that some Opposition Members would discount it. I was We know that a proactive and caring Government glad that, in Department for the Environment, Food could and would confront this shocking situation. They and Rural Affairs questions, Ministers acknowledged would do that through measures to scrap the bedroom that and said that they would meet industry representatives tax, rather than voting to keep it, by growing the to see how better to deal with food waste. The waste and number of employers who pay the living wage, through resources action programme, which is based in my the enforcement of tough sanctions on employers who constituency, is already taking a lead on this. do not pay the minimum wage, through a fairer approach to benefit sanctions and through a benefit system that As to the suggestion or implication that the debate is does not seem set to make the claimant pay from the entirely about benefit delays and sanctions, may I read outset. in my remaining time a short extract from the Bishop of Truro’s article in last week’s Church Times? This is just In Scotland, we have a Government who support the one quote to show the complexity: policies of the Conservatives in this place by refusing to “The other force at work is the addiction that many individuals support a 50p tax rate and who vote against the extension and families have, but which particularly sharply affects the of the living wage in public contracts. In Scotland, we budgeting of low-income families. A family earning £21,000 a are hamstrung by not one but two Governments with year, for example, where both parents smoke 20 cigarettes a day the wrong priorities. We can do something about this, will spend a quarter of their income on tobacco.” and we must, even if we have to wait until May to begin He went on to talk about the need to address the to right the wrongs. “circle of addiction fed by debt, at the expense of being able to put food on the table.” 5.44 pm These are complex issues, and I suggest that pre-election Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): I hope that every soundbites are not worthy of them. It is a pity that this Member will read the all-party report entitled “Feeding evening’s debate has sometimes degenerated into a pre- Britain”, which has 77 recommendations, all of which election soundbite debate. seem eminently practical. I think everyone would agree that we should collectively seek to ensure that benefits 5.48 pm can be paid as quickly as possible. I was not sure whether the hon. Member for Garston and Halewood Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab): I am (Maria Eagle) was giving an undertaking that, if a absolutely outraged that people are going hungry in one Labour Government were elected next spring, benefits of the richest countries in the world. We have nearly could be paid within five days. We would all want to 1 million people attending food banks and over 13 million, ensure that benefits are paid as quickly as possible. including children, the disabled and elderly, living in poverty. Worse still, a high percentage of those 13 million I was pleased to hear the Secretary of State for Work people are in work, working day-in and day-out, with and Pensions announcing earlier this week that the low pay and rising living costs. Government were Members will know that I was part of the all-party “looking to new measures committing the Department to raising much more awareness, as was asked for, of the short-term benefit parliamentary group inquiry team that spent most of advances. We are doing that through websites, on posters and by this year touring the country taking evidence from providing information in jobcentres…hoping to roll it out at the charities and food bank users, and also know that I sit beginning of the new year” on the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, 1499 Food Banks17 DECEMBER 2014 Food Banks 1500

[Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck] We heard from a number of agencies about the culture change at the Department for Work and Pensions. which is holding an inquiry into food security. While The system now exists to catch people out, not to help this does not make me an expert, it does mean I have a them. That culture change has been led by those at the broad knowledge of the growing hunger problem this top, those in the Government who want to scapegoat country faces and the causes of it. the poor. We see that attitude when Ministers deny that welfare reform has led to people going hungry, which Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): Has my hon. completely ignores the experiences of all our constituents. Friend seen in her constituency as much as I have seen Ministers accuse critics of welfare reform of playing in my Inverclyde constituency of food being distributed, politics. I wonder whether they would have the gall to and of power cards enabling those people to cook the face some of the hungry people in my constituency and food that has been distributed to them? tell them that. It is not playing politics; it is the reality of life in our country nowadays. Mrs Lewell-Buck: What I have seen is an increase in People are going hungry, and, with each passing day the number of soup kitchens in my constituency, because of this terrible excuse for a Government, more and people do not have the equipment in their homes to more are falling into poverty, with little or no chance of cook any food. escape. There are no second chances in Britain today. Food poverty is a clear consequence of the Government’s No matter where in the country we took evidence, we ideological assault on the social safety net and the heard the same stories time and again. People were people who rely on it. One hungry person is a complete using food banks because of poverty pay, welfare and disgrace, but thousands of hungry people are a national benefit changes, unfair sanctions and benefit delays. disaster. I want us to try to consign this age of hunger to the history books. I know that that can best be Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) achieved under a Labour Government. (Lab): My hon. Friend has rightly mentioned the problems caused by benefit changes. I recently initiated a debate 5.53 pm in Westminster Hall about the change from disability living allowance to personal independence payments. Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): Two or three weeks When I telephoned my local benefits office in Bellshill, I ago I had the honour of co-chairing the launch of a was told that a man had been waiting for 14 months for report entitled “Emergency Use Only”, compiled by the a decision. Will she encourage the Government to accept Trussell Trust, Oxfam, the Child Poverty Action Group their responsibilities, especially their responsibility for and the Church of England. It is a balanced and the mess at the Department for Work and Pensions? thoughtful report and chimes very much with my own experience as a constituency Member of Parliament. Mrs Lewell-Buck: I entirely agree with my right hon. As time is short, I shall outline just some of the Friend, and I shall say something about the issue that he points made by those organisations. They began by has raised later in my speech. considering what had caused the increasing use of food In the past, we had a welfare state with a supportive banks and they concluded that it was due to an acute safety net. When I was unemployed, and when members income crisis. There could be a number of reasons for of my family and I fell on hard times, I was proud to live that crisis. The word “complexity” has rightly been used in a country in which they and I would be able to get a great deal today. The income crisis could be due to help. Sadly, that is no longer the case. I remain proud of factors connected with employment, or unemployment. my country, but not of the people who are running it. It could be due to a change in family circumstances. But The fact is that the safety net no longer exists. Since the it could be due to the benefits system, and it clearly is in coalition introduced its welfare reforms, we have experienced a number of cases. The system is complex, people have a harsh and punitive regime. We have a culture that no had to experience long waiting times, and there has longer talks to people about their circumstances or tries often been a lack of clear information about why people to understand their hardship, but sanctions them without have been sanctioned and what they must do to remove hesitation and cuts them off from any means of financial those sanctions. support without a care. Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): I have had to sign on myself, and I remember waiting until I was in Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- dire straits financially before I went and did that. Does op): Will my hon. Friend give way? the hon. Gentleman agree that 16 days is far too long for someone to wait before receiving jobseeker’s allowance? Mrs Lewell-Buck: I want to make some progress. That is not just my view, but the view of the brave Jeremy Lefroy: I would agree that in many circumstances people and selfless organisations that gave evidence to it is probably too long. Circumstances will be different our inquiry. Time and again, people cited the changes in for different people, but for some people it most certainly the welfare state as a primary driver to the food bank. It is too long. would be a total injustice not to acknowledge that. It is I want to consider what we should be doing about a national disgrace that food banks have become a part this situation. There has been criticism of the Department of the fabric of our society, but I thank God that they for Work and Pensions. I want to make it clear that are there, for the truth is that, if the food banks and the most staff in DWP do an excellent job, and most DWP faith groups were not plugging the gaps left by the state, staff in my constituency really do try to help the people people would be starving. There is no common sense or who come before them—not everybody, but we are all humanity in the system any more. human beings. 1501 Food Banks17 DECEMBER 2014 Food Banks 1502

First, we should improve access to short-term benefit history that goes back beyond the time his Government advances. I think the Government recognise that. I hope have been in office. However, we simply have to acknowledge they will do something about it and make it clearer how the explosion in the scale of the problem in recent years. people can access those advances more readily. Secondly, We cannot have a sane and sensible debate about how we should look at sanctions policy and practice. Some to resolve the problem if Ministers refuse to acknowledge of the instances that have been highlighted to me of that over the past four years the number of people how people have been sanctioned seem, frankly, to be relying on Trussell Trust food banks alone—there are over the top and in some cases ridiculous—in some many other food banks around the country—has gone cases perfectly justified, but in many cases I have questioned up from 41,000 in 2010 to nearly a million now, and that that. in those years we have seen food banks such as the Brick in my constituency springing up to fill need and demand. Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) Many people are too frightened or humiliated to go (Lab): The hon. Gentleman may be aware that the and ask for help, and the British Red Cross—more used Work and Pensions Committee has decided to conduct to working in countries torn apart by war, famine and an inquiry into inappropriate sanction use because of disaster—is launching its first-ever emergency appeal in our significant concerns about that. this country, one of the richest countries in the world, to feed and clothe our children. We should be ashamed Jeremy Lefroy: There have been cases where people of ourselves. We have to start by acknowledging that have had medical appointments, for example, which and the heartbreaking reality, as all my hon. Friends they cannot avoid, and so could not go to sign on, so who have visited food banks in their constituencies will there needs to be a bit more flexibility, while not taking know, of a nation that will not feed its children. nonsense from people who try to get away with things. Most of these people are not trying to get away with it Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): My hon. at all, however. Friend is making a very good speech, as always. There is Thirdly, the report recommends that we should improve agreement across the House about how well food banks the employment and support allowance regime, ensuring are performing, how well organisations such as Tesco that claimants are not left without income for long are doing and how generous our constituents are in periods. Fourthly, the local welfare assistance scheme is giving money and food to food banks. Does my hon. currently under review after a challenge. I urge the Friend agree that what is missing on the Government Government to ensure that the funding is ring-fenced, Benches is the anger at the fact that we have food banks and that local authorities are not required to absorb it in this country? That is what I saw when I was collecting into their budgets, as many will find that difficult. We at Tesco in Brook Green—that people are so concerned. need that money to be ring-fenced locally for the coming financial year. I hope the Minister can respond on that, Lisa Nandy: The Minister’s warm words and praise or at least indicate when we are going to hear about that. for many of the charities running those food banks I agree that food banks should not become a readily would be a lot more convincing if his Government had accepted part of formal provision. Clearly, there will not just tried to gag them to prevent them from speaking always be people who get into difficulties. Being the son out by passing the Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party of a vicar in London, I remember that people would Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Act frequently come to the doorstep and ask for food. That 2014, which we will repeal. is always the case—people do get into difficulties—but One of the reasons why we have such a problem is food banks should not be part of a readily accepted that the safety net that those charities campaigned for formal system for the long term. and that we built during the previous century has been The report chimes with the report presented last allowed to collapse in this century. What was provided week which colleagues wrote. The Government should once as a right is now provided as charity. That, in the take the evidence and the recommendations seriously. end, is what lies behind the humiliation facing many of Some of the recommendations should not be difficult the people forced to walk miles to go to food banks and to implement; it should merely be a matter of instructing the gnawing anxiety that they live with daily, not knowing DWP offices what they should, and should not, do in where their next meal will come from. terms of sanctions. This debate is extremely important. I am very glad Robert Flello: Is my hon. Friend as shocked as I am that it has taken place today. I hope that Members on by a recent case, typical of so many, of a couple who both sides of the House will do their utmost to ensure told me that their mother—an elderly woman who had we improve the current situation, but ultimately it is up been feeding them because they could get no support—had to the Government to look at the ways in which they had to go into hospital suffering from malnutrition? can do that. Lisa Nandy: Indeed. My hon. Friend is right. 5.58 pm In the short time available to me, I want to talk about the solutions to these problems. The first solution, Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): I want to start by saying which tackles a long-term trend, is that work must pay. that it is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Far too many people have been forced into work that is Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) and that I agreed with so much low-wage and zero or small-hours. One of my constituents of what he said. I also want to say that, to be fair, the wrote to me before this debate and said that she was Minister is right to acknowledge, as we do on this side, forced into a job where she was given, on average, only that some of the problems that are propelling people in 15 minutes of work a day over the course of a week, and this country to food banks have deep roots and a long that £1.10 a day did not even cover the cost of her bus 1503 Food Banks17 DECEMBER 2014 Food Banks 1504

[Lisa Nandy] Trussell Trust food banks and both do excellent work. I congratulate the people who work in them. I have done fare. When she left that job she was sanctioned, got into welfare rights for about 25 years, and I am pleased to debt and ended up having to go to a food bank. The have the opportunity to send people in crisis somewhere solutions are obvious: raise the minimum wage and where they can get emergency food aid. encourage firms to pay the living wage. The Trussell Trust website tells us how the trust was When the Minister went to Tesco, did he ask that founded in 1997 and how food banks were born in 2000. company why it does not pay all its staff a living wage? I It tells how the founder, Paddy Henderson, received a would be interested to know. Those who claim to be call in 2000 part of the solution can also be part of the problem. It “from a desperate mother in Salisbury saying ‘my children are is the Government’s job to set the tone of what we going to bed hungry tonight—what are you going to do about it?’ expect from our major employers. In communities such Paddy investigated local indices of deprivation and ‘hidden hunger’ as mine, there are real issues about the number of jobs in the UK. The shocking results showed that significant numbers available. If the Government do not invest to create of local people faced short term hunger as a result of a sudden jobs, it is no use telling people to get on their bike and crisis.” go and get a job. This problem is not new, but the fact that there are now The second thing that Ministers must do is rebuild food banks is a positive thing. the safety net. I do not know whether the Minister understands how much damage the bedroom tax has David Wright: I think we would all acknowledge that done to people in communities such as mine. It must be there has always been a problem with people and families scrapped immediately. The benefits delays that my hon. going hungry in this country. It is nothing new, but how Friends have mentioned are so important. I have people does the hon. Gentleman explain the huge increase in in my constituency who are waiting six months just to the number of people presenting at food banks in recent get an assessment for employment support allowance. years? On top of that, the universal credit has been introduced. In principle I support it, but many people are now John Hemming: One aspect of that is that people managing budgets that they never had to deal with such as myself who were unable to refer anyone to a before, and it has propelled many of them not just into debt, food bank before can now do so. I have always seen but into the arms of payday lenders—payday lenders people in a state of crisis—[Interruption.] No,Ihave that this Government refuse to do anything about. seen people in a state of crisis, and the Trussell Trust If Ministers were at all interested in the experiences also confirms that this was happening in 2000. of my constituents, which they do not appear to be as Let us look at an example involving habitual residency. they seem to be talking together, they would learn that I think that the House is united in not wanting benefit the culture in the jobcentre— tourism. However, when people leave this country to go and live abroad for five or 10 years and then come back, The Minister for Disabled People (Mr Mark Harper): they do not qualify for benefits because they have not Will the hon. Lady give way? been habitually resident here. They then come to see me and I tell them that, in such an emergency, I can send Lisa Nandy: No, I will not give way. It is about time them down to the food bank. I have handed out vouchers Ministers listened, rather than trying to tell us that to four people. It is true that some people end up in such there is no problem in this country. a state that they cannot afford to cook the food, and The cultural change that is needed in the jobcentre, that is something that we need to be aware of. They which routinely strips people of their rights and their often do not want to go to the food bank for that dignity, will come from getting rid of the unofficial reason. Similarly, the cost of the bus fare to the food targets for sanctions and restoring adviser discretion so bank can also be an issue. We have to recognise, however, that organisations can work with people, not against that the habitual residency rule is not new. It has been people, in their search for work. around for some time. The Trussell Trust refers to I will say this to the Minister, now that he is finally “hidden hunger”. We all agree with the policy of having paying attention to what I am saying about the experience habitual residency qualifications for means-tested benefits. of my constituents: what a waste this all is! He talks Sanctions give me cause for concern. I have sat down about food banks. Well, I will tell him something. There with senior civil servants who have told me that there is a growing recognition across all the political parties are no targets for sanctions, but I have also had confirmation that in the current economic climate we desperately from people working in the Department for Work and need to harness the talents, the passion and the energy Pensions that they are under pressure for not having of people in every community, to make this country issued enough sanctions. I also see people who are being fairer, stronger, better and more sustainable. Instead, we wrongly sanctioned. To me, that is very wrong. The have charities—cancer charities and children’s charities. safety net should be fair but, as I have said on a number Instead of supporting people at the hardest time of of occasions, it is not operating properly at the moment. their lives, we can do little more than feed and clothe the children in one of the richest countries in the world. The hon. Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) made What a tremendous waste it all is! an excellent speech, and I support everything he said, but I would also like to emphasise the point made by the right hon. Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry) 6.5 pm about the yellow card system. The sanctioning system John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): I have was originally designed to be punitive, but under the visited the new food bank in my constituency and the universal credit system, it is supposed to be less so. The one in Sparkhill, just outside my constituency. Both are Government have gone wrong in not having moved 1505 Food Banks17 DECEMBER 2014 Food Banks 1506 towards a compliance-oriented sanctions system and waste—surplus food—to provide meals for people who waiting for universal credit to bring that in. We should cannot afford them. For the 60 or so people I met there have changed how the system was initially set up under on Sunday, it was probably the only nutritious cooked the previous Government. It was initially set up as a meal they were going to get that week. I urge him to punitive system, but it should have been moved towards visit. compliance. I would support the yellow card system, which the Trussell Trust also supports. Sir Gerald Kaufman: My hon. Friend has got it right, because one sees this again and again. Why? It is Again, the Labour party has to think carefully about because of poverty.The figures show that in my constituency its policy proposals. It proposes to increase the number 42% of children live in poverty. Mine is the 10th worst of years someone has to work to qualify for contributory constituency for that in the whole UK. The city of jobseeker’s allowance from two to five years. The effect Manchester is fourth in Britain for poverty, and that is of that will be to reduce the number of people who get according to the Department for Education’s own definition. contributory JSA, which is why the Labour party is Children are said to be living in relative poverty if their suggesting it, but the families involved will then face household’s income is less than 60% of the median exactly the same sort of crisis that will drive them to a national income. food bank. Manchester is a target for this Government. They Let us consider what happens to a couple who are have taken away more Government funding from my both in low-paid work and then one of them loses their city than from anywhere else in the country, whereas in job. Under Labour’s new proposals they will find themselves other parts of the country, such as Surrey, they are having an income crisis that they would not find under actually increasing the amount of Government funding. the Government’s current legislation. This is a complex It is a cynical political trick. They know that they issue of detail, and some of the Opposition’s proposals cannot win seats in Manchester, so why make life would make more people go to food banks. We need to comfortable for people there? By contrast, in Surrey look at how to deal with it in detail and protect people they do have some hope of winning constituencies. It is from hunger—hidden or unhidden. a political manoeuvre and my constituents suffer because of it. 6.10 pm The Government’s policy can be summed up: Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): “For whosoever hath, to him shall be given…but whosoever The hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (John hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.” Hemming) talked about Members of this House who Benefit sanctions are spoken of again and again. Heaven have been around for some time. Well, I have been knows I have a case load, as the Secretary of State around for some time and I have never known a situation knows from his correspondence with me, but people like this. should not look for benefits other than those to which they are entitled by family circumstances. They should Last Saturday, I attended a Christmas lunch for be able to have jobs. In Manchester, we have the Manchester pensioners at the Trinity House community centre in living wage, but it does not prevail. If people do not my constituency. It was a lovely occasion, but I did ask have incomes or jobs they cannot buy food. It is terrible myself what kind of lunch some of the people would have that we have in this country—a progressive western been having if they had not been there. I went to a European country—hunger that is categorised by Unilever school and the head teacher told me that the meal and Oxfam. The people who provide food banks are provided for children there was the only proper meal fine, decent people. They are good people—valuable they had all day; I had to ask myself what happens people—but we should not need them. during holiday periods. I went to the New Covenant church for a carol service Several hon. Members rose— last Sunday in another part of my constituency. I had a chat with the pastor and I was told of the things that Mr Speaker: A very large number of colleagues are were done at that church. He told me about its food seeking to catch my eye, as a result of which I have to programme and its food bank. He told me that the reduce the time limit on Back-Bench speeches to three church has volunteers who work there and in the community minutes with immediate effect. but cannot find jobs when they have left the volunteer period. 6.16 pm That night, I went home and saw on television a Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): It is a commercial that said, “Help Unilever and Oxfam fight pleasure, Mr Speaker, to follow the right hon. Member hunger in the UK”. I found it utterly shaming that a for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman), who commercial such as that had been made, where people represents the city where my husband grew up. I am were saying that there was so much hunger in this familiar with the type of poverty that he described, as country that action against it had to be organised. my husband grew up in a two-up, two-down council Despite the damage done by this Government, this is house in a neighbourhood very similar to the one that one of the richest countries in the world, and it is utterly he represents. Like many Government Members, we are humiliating that people should have to go to food banks absolutely able to relate to and represent the sort of to get a meal. community that he represents. I am sure we all share the horror and shock at the fact that many people need to Kerry McCarthy: I do not know whether my right go to food banks in the 21st century in one of the hon. Friend has yet had a chance to visit the excellent wealthiest countries in the world. We are united in our FoodCycle Manchester. I am a patron of the organisation desire to help people out of poverty and help them and was at FoodCycle Bristol on Sunday. It uses food stand on their own feet to secure a sustainable life. 1507 Food Banks17 DECEMBER 2014 Food Banks 1508

[Sarah Newton] advice bureau and can give that advice and sort out benefit problems with the DWP locally. I have nothing I find the tenor of this debate unbearably disappointing, but respect and admiration for the team in my local after doing so much careful work with colleagues across Jobcentre Plus, who work very well with us when issues the House on the all-party parliamentary group. Everyone are identified, to ensure that people get the support that has said that the work was thoughtful and considered, is there for them. The biggest single issue we find in the and it has been much referenced. The key finding of work we have been doing for well over a year now is that that report was well articulated by the Archbishop of people do not get, or do not even know about, all the Canterbury: this issue is so great and has been going on help that is available to them. Having people at food for so long that it needs to rise above party politics. It banks who can offer good advice on welfare, debt and needs a considered, all-party approach, but this debate employment is absolutely essential. Although I really has thoroughly let down the people in our constituencies appreciate and value the opportunity to talk about the who have to go food banks. It thoroughly lets down the excellent work being done in my constituency, I think hundreds and thousands of volunteers who give their that the way the Opposition have approached the issue time so freely. today is shameful. The Opposition had the opportunity to hold a debate granted by the Backbench Business Committee. They 6.7 pm did not have to pick an Opposition day to discuss such an issue. I shall leave my hon. Friend the Member for Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): Salisbury (John Glen) to discuss the APPG findings, I am ashamed and angry that we are having to have this and in the time available I want to discuss what is going debate today and that just under 1 million people in our on in my constituency. For well over a year, volunteers country have to access emergency food aid. It is an from my team have gone to each session in the three absolute disgrace. We know that those figures only food banks in my constituency. I represent one of the touch the surface. I heard stories when I was in Erewash— poorest regions in the country, so I understand why for example about Billy, who has to go “skipping” when people use food banks. We are helping those volunteers the supermarkets put out their food at the end of each to get to the underlying reasons why people use food day because he has nothing to eat. There are the mums banks and we are helping those people to get back on who are going without, the teachers who say they have their feet. That was a key recommendation in the APPG children turning up at school hungry because they have report. nothing to eat at home, and the councillors who are handing out food from the back of their cars. The list Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): Does my hon. Friend goes on. The figures we have are just from the Trussell agree that a key point about food banks and the important Trust, but we know that there are many more food work that they do is that it is not just about the banks and unofficial organisations that help people in distribution of food? It is about listening to problems need, whether they be hostels, luncheon clubs or the and giving advice, pointing people in the right direction, many other people who provide emergency food aid. as well as providing food. I have said it before, and I will say it again: there is not one person who walks into a food bank with their Sarah Newton: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I head held high. People cannot just walk into a food know that the volunteers at the food bank really welcome bank because they decide they want a bit of extra food; the volunteers from my team, who provide such important they have to be referred. As the many hon. Members in advice in getting to the underlying reasons why people this House who issue food bank vouchers know, it is an are there. We can help with issues relating to benefits, incredibly difficult thing to broach with a constituent employment, housing and debt, among many others, who is clearly in need. I have had constituents reject the because there is a huge variety of issues. By working offer because they are ashamed and embarrassed. The with DWP locally and Cornwall council, as well as with fact that we have to do that as MPs should fill us all employers and civil society, we can help a great many with shame. Frankly, I am appalled that two years on people access the available help so that they can deal from the debate we had at Christmas 2012, when the with those issues and get themselves back on their own Minister said that it was not a problem, the number of two feet, which is exactly what they want to do. Nobody people in our country having to access emergency food wants to end up at a food bank, but some people at aid is approaching 1 million. Again, I am frankly appalled. some time in their lives will need a great deal of help to help themselves. Although the state of course has a role We know that there are many organisations across to play, nothing will ever replace the kindness and the country doing phenomenal work, whether that is generosity of somebody freely giving their time to help the Trussell Trust, FareShare or FoodCycle, which go a person in need. out of their way to provide people with help. I have seen it in my constituency. I have met a man who had to walk Stephen Mosley: The volunteers in my constituency, a 9-mile round trip in the cold, having just come out of like those in my hon. Friend’s, work really hard at the hospital after heart surgery, because he had nothing to food bank to support and help people. One thing they eat at home. I had a constituent who had worked all her raise with me, however, is the fact that from time to time life but was made redundant in her mid-50s. She had people have nowhere to turn when they have benefit applied for hundreds of jobs and did not receive the problems. Does her office have people in that situation support she was entitled to. My constituent Thomas coming to see her for help? O’Donnell waited eight months for his personal independence payment and suffered malnutrition as a Sarah Newton: Yes, and I am very pleased that I have result. I am sorry that the Minister is too busy to listen such experienced members of my team at the food to the individual cases of my constituents who have banks. They have years of experience at the citizens been affected and had to access emergency food aid. 1509 Food Banks17 DECEMBER 2014 Food Banks 1510

Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): Will my hon. Friend been a significant improvement and where, when there give way? were changes to benefits in 2006-07, there was also a spike in the proportion of those who gave benefit delays Luciana Berger: I have been asked not to, because as a reason for using food banks. In fact, the situation other Members wish to speak. was very similar to the one we saw when the recent A family in my constituency have been waiting since benefit changes were implemented. This is a national August to get their tax credit application processed, and system, where 18,000 decisions are made every day. they are having to live on food bank vouchers because they have nothing to eat at home. I pay tribute to James Sarah Newton: Does my hon. Friend agree that, as we Sloan and those at Central Liverpool food bank who do saw in the report, a lot of the solutions can be found by such an excellent job in providing people with support, talking to local DWP staff and identifying where there and the volunteers who give their time to collect food, could be glitches, so that those staff could themselves the people who donate very generously—in Liverpool, be part of the solution? we have had one of the most generous supermarket collections anywhere across the country—and the people John Glen: I absolutely agree. Everyone, even in Salisbury, who give their time to listen and to provide a cup of tea. where according to today’s figures unemployment is However, I reiterate that we should not need those down to 0.8%, we know of individuals who have not volunteers. We should not need the hundreds of food been well served by certain decisions. We all act as banks. We should not have 1 million people having to advocates for those individuals, and it is perfectly right access emergency food aid. It is a disgrace that over that we should. 23,000 people— As the Bishop of Salisbury said when he gave evidence to the APPG, Mr Speaker: Order. Time is up. Before I call the next “hunger can happen to any of us. It stems from low pay, lack of speaker, let me say to the House that I know that nobody self-esteem, family breakdown, unemployment, addiction, mental intends any discourtesy, but it is frankly discourteous illness, sickness or bad luck”— for Members on the Treasury Bench to be chattering to or, indeed, a combination of many of those factors. each other when an hon. Member is speaking. These Any strategy on food poverty that ignores that list in its are important matters. Please let us treat each other entirety and how those elements interact with one another, with appropriate respect. I hope that the Minister, who choosing instead to focus entirely on benefits and economic is sitting there impassively, has got the point—he had factors, does not do justice to the complexity of the better have got it. problem in this country. Everyone who turns to a food bank has a different story to tell: some are about 6.25 pm straightforward administrative errors, whereas others are extensive tales of hardship. I urge the Government, John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): It is a privilege to contribute in their response, to reflect on the full range of our 77 to this debate. I represent Salisbury, where the headquarters recommendations and the issues that we have discussed. of the Trussell Trust are based. I have had the privilege of deep and thoughtful conversations and dialogue 6.29 pm with those at the Trussell Trust during my time as MP. Having contributed extensively to the report over the Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab): I want to address past six months, I am struck by the range of the one question that arises from the speech made by the 77 recommendations that we have made. The report hon. Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy). There is a makes uncomfortable reading for all politicians in all sense of anger and shame that, as politicians, we are all parts of the House. I want to make it absolutely clear almost powerless in the face of the rising tide of poverty that I understand the strong feelings that are generated and hunger in our constituencies. I want to caution when we discuss this matter. Let me therefore point out people who think it will be easy to stem that tide. I want that we focus extensively on the issues of low pay, to address those on both Front Benches on what I hope, benefit administration, benefit delays, hardship payments, as we go into the election, the electorate will ask of us in short-term benefit advances, tax credits, mandatory alleviating the current position. reconsideration and benefit sanctions. However, it is I do not believe, as the hon. Gentleman and some also important that we think about supermarkets, the academics have suggested, that we are in a world in food supply chain, energy companies and regulators, which we can easily move to the abolition of food and how the food banks operate and work with other banks. I wish that were true. One important thing that I charitable organisations. If we are going to take this hope we did in the report was to suggest that the report seriously, it is very important that we do not try situation exists not only in this country, but in similar to cherry-pick its recommendations. As Chris Mould, economies in the western world. In Canada, the United the chairman of the Trussell Trust said, States, France and Germany, as in this country, the “that’s precisely how to hollow out the potential and impact of number of people reduced to hunger is increasing. That the inquiry and leave most of the causes of the problem untouched.” suggests that something very fundamental has happened I do not want not to reference fully the complexity of and is happening to the economy in such western countries, individuals who use food banks and the fact that some and that protecting the poor—as far as they are concerned, of the issues they raise make uncomfortable reading for the economy is clearly falling away—will be really difficult. politicians on the Government Benches. However, we That does not mean that we should not think about have to be honest about what we are saying about an what we are doing, or that we should not ask both alternative. When we talk about reforming the sanctions Government and Opposition Front Benchers to lessen system, we are talking about a system where there has the number of our constituents who are faced with the 1511 Food Banks17 DECEMBER 2014 Food Banks 1512

[Mr Frank Field] Germany, but having 1 million people having to depend on hand-outs to prevent them from going hungry—870,000 horror of not being able to feed their children or, many more than when the Government came to office—is times, not being able to feed themselves. The Government nothing to be proud of. have an important role in relation to the number of The reasons that the Government have given for the people who are hungry. A number of rip-off merchants rise in the number of food banks have ranged from the in the utilities who charge the poor more than the very ignorant to the outright scurrilous. There is not the time rich are accountable. There is the shame of being in a to recite all the dreadful things that Ministers have said, country in which only 2% of the edible waste is recycled but now infamous ones have included sentiments from to people who are hungry today. “Let them eat porridge” to “People use food banks because more people know they’re there”, or, “There’s Sarah Newton rose— more food waste being recycled”. It is either that or “The lower orders simply can’t cook”. There is no limit Mr Field: No, I will not give way, because other to how offensive Ministers can be. Condescending and Members want to speak. out of touch does not begin to describe it. The important point for Government and Opposition What our country needs is a lower cost of living, Front Benchers is whether we will implement the higher wages and a fair benefits system that is fit for recommendation that if someone’s benefit is not paid in purpose. We must end the scandal of in-work poverty a reasonable time, they automatically qualify for emergency by raising the minimum wage, spreading the living payments. Will they both introduce a yellow card system wage, keeping household bills down and putting an end to ensure that those who have been sanctioned can seek to exploitative employment practices. The Government help, rather than having to face hunger? It is fine for us would have it that poverty is the personal and moral to get angry, but we have some power, which is to make failure of the poor, to which there is an all-stick-and-no- the two Front-Bench teams respond to our demands, carrot solution of plunging the poor further into destitution. and I have not heard them talk about that tonight. We have to ask what type of society we want to be. Having witnessed the tremendous kindness and generosity Several hon. Members rose— of ordinary people who donate to and run food banks, I do not think the British people believe that those who Mr Speaker: Order. The Front-Bench speeches will have fallen on hard times through no fault of their own begin at 6.46 pm. There is no obligation on Members to should be thrown on to the scrap heap as the Government take the full three minutes, and those who take less time are doing. Any future Government ought to count will help others. achieving a hunger-free UK as a priority, but for that Government this nation’s hungry will sadly have to 6.33 pm wait. Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab): My last visit to one of the six Trussell Trust food banks in my 6.35 pm constituency left me shocked and horrified. I heard Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): Everybody should about a single mum—working as a lunch time school agree that it is an absolute and utter disgrace, in a rich, supervisor while training to become a classroom assistant— developed nation of the 21st century, that so many of who must, being employed part time, attend jobcentre our fellow citizens have to resort to food banks. The interviews. On the day her father died, she forgot her largest food bank in my constituency is the Angus food appointment. She rang the next day to apologise and bank, which is run by a group of churches, supported explain, but the death of her father was not accepted as by the Trussell Trust. I have joined food collections, and a valid reason for missing her appointment. She was the dedication of volunteers and the generosity of those sanctioned for one month, and had no choice but to who donate never ceases to amaze me. turn to the food bank. I heard about the 14 men sacked It is often those who have little enough themselves with no pay after four weeks’ work when their food-packing who are most ready to help their fellow citizens. I recall employer went bust. The jobcentre told them they could that at a recent event, one person came up to us with a not claim, but had to pursue the company for their small donation, saying that he could not afford much wages. Being penniless, they turned to the food bank. but had been helped by the food bank when he was in These stories and thousands like them typify the need and wanted to give something back. That is far impact of this Government’s welfare reforms, which, from unusual. Food banks bring out the best in ordinary through a cocktail of callousness and ministerial people with a desire to help those who find themselves incompetence, are condemning hundreds of thousands in temporary difficulties through illness, unemployment of our fellow citizens to modern-day penury. These or other factors. Unfortunately, they do not seem to people are doing all that we ask of them: they are in have that effect on Ministers. work or training, and they are trying their hardest The rise in food bank use is down to rising need, and under difficult circumstances to better themselves and the number of people using them is certainly going up. provide for their families. They are exactly the type of In Scotland alone, 51,647 people received a minimum people that our welfare system was created to support, three-day supply of food from a Trussell Trust food but this Government are punishing them, and leaving bank in the six months to September this year, an them destitute and reliant on charity to stop them and increase of an astonishing 124% on the same period last their children going hungry. year. Almost one third of those helped were children. Ministers refuse even to acknowledge the explosion The Trussell Trust expects that over the full year, the in the use of food banks. The Secretary of State boasts number will rise to more than 90,000. Angus food bank that we have fewer people using food banks than in helped 1,247 people in the six months to April, and it 1513 Food Banks17 DECEMBER 2014 Food Banks 1514 does not cover the major town of Arbroath, which is been such an exponential growth in their use. Government served by other food banks. Some 277 of those people Ministers suggesting that it is some kind of act of God were children. In the council ward where I live, 338 people simply does not wash. were helped. Those figures are shocking. In my opinion, the acceptable level of food bank usage Why do people go to food banks? The Trussell Trust is zero. Access to adequate nutrition is a basic human says that only 5% of people who come to it cite homelessness right, and there is no excuse, even in a time of austerity, as the main cause of their crisis. Almost half—46%—cite for a modern and rich country—I think we are the benefit problems, and a further 18% cite low income. seventh richest country—to be unable to meet the food needs of its people. The Prime Minister said that food Jim Shannon: The Trussell Trust food bank in bank usage increased from 2005-06, but numbers went Newtonards, in my constituency, was the first in Northern from 40,000 to almost 900,000 this year—those are Ireland. It is run by the Thriving Life church and does huge numbers. excellent work. I am the main referral agency for it, and Information that I receive from food banks in my for the record, the main reasons for referrals are benefit constituency shows that there is little evidence, if any, of delays at 30%, benefit changes at 15% and low income people abusing the system. The average number of visits at 22%. Last year— from an individual user is 1.7, with the food bank often being instrumental in resolving a particular crisis and Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. the underlying cause that led to initial contact with the Interventions need to be short. We are trying to get food bank. In fact, food banks are more concerned everybody in, and it is not going to happen at this rate. about those in Easington and east Durham who are too proud to access the service, and it is often only the Mr Weir: Clearly the main issues are a direct result of intervention of a referral agent—a health visitor, social the current Government’s policies. Many people turning worker, or sometimes an MP—that brings many cases to food banks have been “sanctioned”, to use the to the attention of the food bank. Government’s word, often for seemingly unfair reasons. Some 86% of food banks say that they have seen an I do not have time to go into the figures, but the increase in referrals for that reason. It is not just the numbers are staggering and we have not seen anything Trussell Trust making that point; Barnardo’s also does, like it since the miners’ strike in terms of the numbers of citing the rising cost of living, cuts in welfare support families and children who are being fed not just by the and benefit delays. Peterlee and Seaham based centres, but by centres in smaller villages. Something like 1,300 people use such Those matters are under the Government’s control. centres every month, a third of whom are children, and There do not need to be delays in sorting out benefits one food bank produces 12,000 meals a month. Clearly, when circumstances change or for there to be sanctions benefit delays or referrals are the commonest reason for seemingly minor reasons. From my constituency why people are using those food banks. experience, there appears to be a particular problem when someone wishes to change from a dual to a single claim. They cannot get a clear answer on what information 6.42 pm is required to prove their status. Such cases can drag on for months, which is completely and utterly unacceptable. Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ Sorting that out would not necessarily increase costs Co-op): The hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth and would certainly reduce the misery that many of (Sarah Newton), who is no longer in her place, spoke of those who use food banks are suffering. being disappointed with aspects of this debate. Well, I was disappointed that the Minister came to the Dispatch The use of food banks is not just about benefits. It is Box with a folder full of facts and statistics on the also about incomes, as many Members have said. The economy, food waste, the performance of the Department Scottish Government are promoting the living wage for Work and Pensions, and many other issues, yet he among their own employers, and the new ScotRail could not bring himself to admit why people are going contract will include a living wage clause. SSE has just to food banks in this country. For the benefit of the become a living wage employer. Food banks are not an House, I will add some examples that I have heard, easy route for anyone, and those who will be most which back up what the Trussell Trust, independent pleased when food banks cease to be required are the food banks and many others are saying: the use of food volunteers who are putting so much into running them banks is caused by changes and delays in the benefit and helping those in need. system, debt, and, increasingly, people with low incomes who made up 22% of cases this year, up from 16% the 6.39 pm year before. Those are the facts, and it is a shame that Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): Like many the Minister—unlike some Government Members who Members, I will start by thanking those in my constituency were far more candid and open—was unable to state and across east Durham without whose donations, care, them. Perhaps the Minister who winds up the debate compassion and commitment, local food banks would will be clearer. not function. I thank volunteers who work with the I pay tribute to the many volunteers and organisations East Durham Trust’s FEED project, and the County in my constituency, including Cardiff food bank, which Durham food bank for its hard work and dedication is part of the Trussell Trust network and fed more than throughout the year, and the support that it has offered 4,500 people in the past year. The independent food my constituents in times of great crisis. However, although bank at Tabernacle Baptist church in Penarth fed an I am delighted and honoured to pay tribute to those increasing number of people this year—2,180 to date, volunteers and everyone who supports food banks, we and that number is increasing all the time. It repeats to must address the political question of why there has me the same reasons for why people come to it. 1515 Food Banks17 DECEMBER 2014 Food Banks 1516

[Stephen Doughty] 6.47 pm

I pay tribute to those volunteers, many of whom Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): “Hunger stalks come to me and ask, “Why?” That is the fundamental the land.” That is the conclusion of the all-party question that the Government have failed to answer parliamentary inquiry into hunger in the UK. I welcome today. From my experience in international development, that inquiry. Thanks to the members of that inquiry the same question is asked about poverty and injustice and the report they have produced, the truth, so long around the world. We see people who are facing disaster denied by Ministers, must now be faced: a lot of people and we ask why they are vulnerable to disaster. It is in Britain are going hungry. because they are living in poverty. Why are they living in I want to add my tribute to the volunteers responding poverty? It is often of the systems, policies and processes to hunger. We have heard a good deal about the Trussell of Governments and others that leave them in that Trust. It has 400 food banks operating from 1,200 place in the first place. One member of staff I worked locations, every single one of them based on a church. with at the charity World Vision once spoke to me Last month, the report it was responsible for, with about a pit in the world of poverty, with a big digger others—referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for digging it out. Organisations such as food banks can Garston and Halewood (Maria Eagle) in her excellent put rocks back into the pit to try to fill it back up. speech and launched at the meeting chaired by the hon. Ultimately, however, they cannot stop the digger digging Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy)—set out the facts. it out. The digger in this case are the Government, with The interviews with almost 1,000 users in three food policies such as the bedroom tax and punitive sanctions, banks showed that well over half were there because of and policies that fail to deal with energy prices and the problems with the benefit system. The bulk of the cost of living. That is the digger and that is what we problem is in the DWP. The all-party inquiry confirms have to switch off. The Government would do well to that, yet no DWP Minister is going to defend the woeful listen, rather than trying to undermine the organisations record of the Department in this debate. that are speaking up for so many across the country. A newspaper article on 22 December last year told us 6.45 pm that the chairman of the Trussell Trust repeatedly asked Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): I pay tribute to the the Secretary State last year to meet to discuss the excellent work of the Antioch centre and Myrtle house problems in the DWP that were driving people to food in my constituency, and to those who volunteer to banks. The Secretary of State did not meet the Trussell collect food from supermarkets. Trust. Last week in the House he told us: It saddens me that, in spite of us raising this problem “I have never refused to meet it”.—[Official Report, 8 December 2014; many times before, the Government still have not done Vol. 589, c. 638.] anything about it. Instead of seeing a drop, we are I hope he will at some point explain to us what the actually seeing a rise, documented by others today, in distinction is between not agreeing to meet and refusing the number of people going to food banks. I was to meet, because he did not meet the trust. The article particularly disappointed that the Minister did not seek tells us not only that the Secretary of State did not meet to tackle or name the causes of that rise. He did not talk the Trussell Trust, but that in his reply to the letter he about benefit delays, low income or benefit changes. accused the Trussell Trust of publicity seeking. It is a mark of indignity to have to go to a food bank. Nobody goes to one out of choice, and we should be What gets under the skin of the Secretary of State, trying to restore dignity. Believe me, people on the whom I am delighted to see in his place, is that the lowest incomes know where to find the cheapest food. Trussell Trust refuses to shut up about how many Baroness Jenkin, who criticised cooking skills, has absolutely people are turning up to its food banks. He was simply no idea. Very often, the people who live in the worst unwilling to face up to the consequences for the hundreds rented accommodation have the most expensive and of thousands of people forced by his policies to go least efficient cooking appliances and pay the most for hungry. Thanks to no less an authority than the National their electricity. Audit Office and its report on universal credit, we know On benefit sanctions, the right-wing Policy Exchange that he has established a good news culture in his think-tank acknowledged in a report in the spring that Department: telling the truth about the effects of his 68,000 benefit claimants each year are having their benefit policies is simply not allowed. payments stopped unfairly. In addition, there are a huge Having failed to get a meeting with the Secretary of number of very dubious cases where it has been very unclear State, the Trussell Trust wrote to the welfare reform why a benefit has been stopped. People have been Minister, Lord Freud, who wrote back on 30 August sanctioned for appalling reasons: death, being in hospital, saying he was and having learning difficulties and not understanding what they are supposed to be doing. That is absolutely “unable to take up your offer of a meeting”. outrageous. Ministers did not want to know what was really going Barnardo’s highlights the real issue: the breaking of on. Last week, faced at last with the truth from the the link between benefits and inflation. In the House of all-party inquiry—heaven knows what pressure the Commons Library note, the specialist tells us that that Secretary of State put on his hon. Friends who signed has never, ever happened before under any Government, up to the inquiry—the Secretary of State made a concession. whatever their colour. The link has never been broken. He said he would do much more to raise awareness of There is, therefore, a political choice: to sort out the interim payments—at last! Let us hope he delivers, but country’s deficit problems on the backs of the rich and that was exactly what the Trussell Trust wanted to speak not take from the poor; or to do so on the backs of the to him about well over a year ago, when he refused to poor and give tax breaks to millionaires. engage. 1517 Food Banks17 DECEMBER 2014 Food Banks 1518

The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain I begin by reiterating what many other hon. Members, Duncan Smith): I have made it clear that I have met members including the Minister for Civil Society, have said about of the Trussell Trust. I have never denied meeting the fantastic work food banks do and the role they play members. The right hon. Gentleman needs to reveal his in our voluntary sector. This Friday, I will again be sources. visiting a food bank in my constituency, run by Don Gardner, who is involved in the local church, and by Stephen Timms: The chairman of the Trussell Trust many other able volunteers and church groups in the wrote to him repeatedly last year asking to meet him, area. I also pay tribute to hon. Members who took part but he did not meet him. in the recent all-party group inquiry into hunger and food poverty. We have heard some good contributions Mr Duncan Smith: I met members of the trust. from my hon. Friends the Members for Salisbury (John Glen) and for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) and Stephen Timms: We have all met members of the the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field). Trussell Trust. The Secretary of State refused to meet The report concludes that the issues surrounding the chairman. [Interruption.] Ah, I think we are getting household food security are varied and complex and somewhere. He tells us that members of his staff met— should be considered as a whole. Indeed, earlier this year DEFRA published a review of food aid that reached Mr Duncan Smith: And me. a similar conclusion. We should also note that food aid is not just a UK phenomenon. Other countries have Stephen Timms: And him, too. Why did he not meet also seen a large increase in the provision of support the chairman of the Trussell Trust, who wanted to through food banks. In Germany, for example, food explain— banks support about 1.5 million people every week. There has also been a large increase in the number of Mr Duncan Smith: I have met members of the Trussell food banks in countries such as France and the United Trust. States. The reasons are complex and every report that has Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. We considered the issue has concluded that much. Some need to keep the debate going. We cannot have people have said, for instance, that food price inflation might talking across each other. be a factor. There was certainly a big spike in food prices in 2008, but evidence shows that in 2013 food Stephen Timms: The Secretary of State refused to prices in the UK were lower than those in other European meet the chairman of the Trussell Trust, because he countries, including Germany. UK food prices are lower wanted to explain to him the problems that the policies now than they were in 2013. In fact, in the last year UK of his Department were causing for the hundreds of food prices have fallen by 1.7%, the first time we have thousands of people having to go to food banks as a seen such a fall since 2002. result. A number of people have suggested that the inflation As we now know, the big reason so many people are that happened between 2008 and 2012 might have had a going to food banks is delays in benefit payments. compound impact on household incomes and expenditure, Whenever that is raised, Ministers say that delays in and that is possible, but we should recognise that in benefit payments have fallen. The all-party inquiry has 2008 the poorest 20% of households in this country shed some welcome light on the matter. It wrote: were spending 16.8% of household income on food “We found that the Department for Work and Pensions does whereas in 2012 that figure was 16.6%. The amount not currently collect information on the length of time taken for spent by the poorest households on food barely changed benefit payments to be made.” between 2007 and 2012. We recognise that there are It is not surprising they do not know what is going on, those who are struggling to cope with the cost of food, because they do not collect the information. The big which is why the Government are doing a number of problem is with sanctions, as we have heard: between things to help. For instance, we have extended free 19% and 28% of food bank visits are the result of school meals to all infant pupils, which means that an benefit sanctions. As Government Members have extra 1.5 million children are receiving a nutritious confirmed, including the hon. Member for Birmingham, meal. Yardley (John Hemming), enormous pressure is being placed on advisers to sanction people, whether or not Let me turn now to some of the other points that those sanctions are justified. were made. A number of hon. Members mentioned sanctions and delays in payment, but the fact of the We have all-party recognition that hunger is stalking matter is that 93% of JSA and ESA claimants get their the land. The all-party inquiry is right. We need a payments on time— strategy to end hunger, and a big part of that will involve putting right the terrible problems in the DWP, but with DWP Ministers not even willing to take part in Stephen Timms: Will the Minister give way? this debate, it will take a change of Government to do it. George Eustice: No, I will not. We have no time. That figure can be compared with 86% in 2009-10, so 6.53 pm there has been an improvement in payment times. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for A number of hon. Members have mentioned sanctions. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (George Eustice): I have discussed the issue with my own local jobcentre It is a pleasure to have the opportunity to close this and I can confirm that hardship payments are being debate. paid where needed. The right hon. Member for Birkenhead 1519 Food Banks17 DECEMBER 2014 Food Banks 1520

[George Eustice] Chapman, Jenny Hoey, Kate Clark, Katy Hood, Mr Jim raised the important question of whether there is more Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hopkins, Kelvin we can do to advertise hardship payments. I can confirm Clwyd, rh Ann Hosie, Stewart that the Government are looking at ways in which we Coaker, Vernon Howarth, rh Mr George can advertise them more. My own jobcentre has already Coffey, Ann Irranca-Davies, Huw Connarty, Michael Jackson, Glenda made it clear that whenever it sanctions anyone it also Cooper, Rosie James, Mrs Siân C. explains to them the availability of hardship payments, Cooper, rh Yvette Jamieson, Cathy which is important. I should also say that there are no Corbyn, Jeremy Jarvis, Dan benchmarks or targets for sanction referrals. We have Crausby, Mr David Johnson, rh Alan also tried to speed up the payment of hardship payments Creagh, Mary Johnson, Diana to within three days of when people are entitled to Creasy, Stella Jones, Graham them. Cruddas, Jon Jones, Mr Kevan I want to turn to a number of other relevant issues. Cunningham, Alex Jowell, rh Dame Tessa First, is poverty a driver to the use of food banks? It Cunningham, Mr Jim Kane, Mike might well be—obviously it is—but the best way to get Curran, Margaret Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Dakin, Nic Kendall, Liz people out of poverty is to help them off benefits and Danczuk, Simon Khan, rh Sadiq into work. Since 2010 we have 1.7 million more people David, Wayne Lammy, rh Mr David in work, which means 1.7 million more people with the Davidson, Mr Ian Lavery, Ian security of a pay packet. The latest statistics show that Davies, Geraint Lazarowicz, Mark 95% of the jobs being created are full-time jobs. De Piero, Gloria Leslie, Chris Let me turn now to food waste, food recycling and Denham, rh Mr John Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma redistribution. Much has been done through provisions Dobson, rh Frank Lewis, Mr Ivan such as the Courtauld commitment. For instance, we Docherty, Thomas Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn have cut household waste by about 15%, a saving of Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Love, Mr Andrew Doughty, Stephen Lucas, Caroline 1.1 million tonnes of waste, but the Government are Dowd, Jim Lucas, Ian committed to doing far more about the redistribution Doyle, Gemma MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan of food. That is why my right hon. Friend the Secretary Dromey, Jack Mactaggart, Fiona of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and Dugher, Michael Mahmood, Mr Khalid my hon. Friend the Minister for Civil Society will Eagle, Ms Angela Mahmood, Shabana convene a meeting in the new year with leaders of the Eagle, Maria Malhotra, Seema major food retailers and other industry representatives Edwards, Jonathan Mann, John to discuss how more surplus food can be put to good Efford, Clive Marsden, Mr Gordon use. Elliott, Julie McCabe, Steve In conclusion— Ellman, Mrs Louise McCann, Mr Michael Engel, Natascha McCarthy, Kerry Esterson, Bill McClymont, Gregg Ms Rosie Winterton (Doncaster Central) (Lab) claimed Evans, Chris McDonagh, Siobhain to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36). Farrelly, Paul McDonald, Andy Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put. Field, rh Mr Frank McDonnell, John Question agreed to. Fitzpatrick, Jim McFadden, rh Mr Pat Flello, Robert McGovern, Alison Question put accordingly (Standing Order No. 31(2)), Flint, rh Caroline McGuire, rh Mrs Anne That the original words stand part of the Question. Flynn, Paul McInnes, Liz The House divided: Ayes 237, Noes 293. Fovargue, Yvonne McKechin, Ann Francis, Dr Hywel McKenzie, Mr Iain Division No. 122] [7 pm Gapes, Mike Meale, Sir Alan Gilmore, Sheila Miliband, rh Edward AYES Glass, Pat Miller, Andrew Abbott, Ms Diane Betts, Mr Clive Glindon, Mrs Mary Mitchell, Austin Abrahams, Debbie Blackman-Woods, Roberta Godsiff, Mr Roger Moon, Mrs Madeleine Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Blears, rh Hazel Goodman, Helen Morden, Jessica Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Blenkinsop, Tom Greatrex, Tom Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Alexander, Heidi Blomfield, Paul Green, Kate Morris, Grahame M. Ali, Rushanara Blunkett, rh Mr David Greenwood, Lilian (Easington) Allen, Mr Graham Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Griffith, Nia Munn, Meg Anderson, Mr David Brown, rh Mr Gordon Gwynne, Andrew Murphy, rh Mr Jim Ashworth, Jonathan Brown, Lyn Hain, rh Mr Peter Murphy, rh Paul Austin, Ian Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hamilton, Mr David Murray, Ian Bailey, Mr Adrian Brown, Mr Russell Hamilton, Fabian Nandy, Lisa Bain, Mr William Bryant, Chris Hanson, rh Mr David Nash, Pamela Balls, rh Ed Buck, Ms Karen Harman, rh Ms Harriet O’Donnell, Fiona Banks, Gordon Burden, Richard Harris, Mr Tom Onwurah, Chi Barron, rh Kevin Burnham, rh Andy Havard, Mr Dai Osborne, Sandra Bayley, Hugh Byrne, rh Mr Liam Healey, rh John Owen, Albert Beckett, rh Margaret Campbell, rh Mr Alan Hepburn, Mr Stephen Pearce, Teresa Begg, Dame Anne Campbell, Mr Ronnie Heyes, David Perkins, Toby Benn, rh Hilary Caton, Martin Hillier, Meg Qureshi, Yasmin Berger, Luciana Champion, Sarah Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Raynsford, rh Mr Nick 1521 Food Banks17 DECEMBER 2014 Food Banks 1522

Reed, Mr Jamie Thornberry, Emily Freer, Mike Lee, Jessica Reed, Mr Steve Timms, rh Stephen Fullbrook, Lorraine Leech, Mr John Reeves, Rachel Trickett, Jon Fuller, Richard Lefroy, Jeremy Reynolds, Emma Turner, Karl Gale, Sir Roger Leigh, Sir Edward Reynolds, Jonathan Twigg, Derek Garnier, Sir Edward Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Riordan, Mrs Linda Twigg, Stephen Garnier, Mark Lewis, Brandon Robertson, Angus Umunna, Mr Chuka Gauke, Mr David Lewis, Dr Julian Robertson, John Vaz, rh Keith George, Andrew Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rotheram, Steve Walley, Joan Gibb, Mr Nick Lidington, rh Mr David Roy, Mr Frank Watson, Mr Tom Glen, John Lilley, rh Mr Peter Roy, Lindsay Watts, Mr Dave Goodwill, Mr Robert Lopresti, Jack Ruane, Chris Weir, Mr Mike Graham, Richard Luff, Sir Peter Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Grant, Mrs Helen Lumley, Karen Sarwar, Anas Whitehead, Dr Alan Gray, Mr James Macleod, Mary Sawford, Andy Williams, Hywel Grayling, rh Chris Main, Mrs Anne Seabeck, Alison Williamson, Chris Green, rh Damian Maude, rh Mr Francis Shannon, Jim Wilson, Phil Greening, rh Justine May, rh Mrs Theresa Sharma, Mr Virendra Winnick, Mr David Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Maynard, Paul Sheridan, Jim Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Griffiths, Andrew McCartney, Jason Shuker, Gavin Wishart, Pete Gummer, Ben McCartney, Karl Skinner, Mr Dennis Wood, Mike Gyimah, Mr Sam McIntosh, Miss Anne Slaughter, Mr Andy Woodcock, John Hague, rh Mr William McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Halfon, Robert McPartland, Stephen Smith, Angela Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Smith, Nick Hames, Duncan McVey, rh Esther Wright, David Smith, Owen Hammond, Stephen Menzies, Mark Wright, Mr Iain Spellar, rh Mr John Hancock, rh Matthew Metcalfe, Stephen Stuart, Ms Gisela Tellers for the Ayes: Hancock, Mr Mike Miller, rh Maria Tami, Mark Julie Hilling and Hands, rh Greg Mills, Nigel Thomas, Mr Gareth Susan Elan Jones Harper, Mr Mark Milton, Anne Harrington, Richard Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew NOES Harris, Rebecca Moore, rh Michael Hart, Simon Mordaunt, Penny Adams, Nigel Chishti, Rehman Harvey, Sir Nick Morgan, rh Nicky Afriyie, Adam Chope, Mr Christopher Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morris, Anne Marie Amess, Mr David Clappison, Mr James Hayes, rh Mr John Morris, David Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Clark, rh Greg Heald, Sir Oliver Morris, James Baker, rh Norman Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Heath, Mr David Mosley, Stephen Baker, Steve Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Heaton-Harris, Chris Mowat, David Baldry, rh Sir Tony Collins, Damian Hemming, John Mulholland, Greg Barclay, Stephen Colvile, Oliver Henderson, Gordon Mundell, rh David Barker, rh Gregory Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hendry, Charles Munt, Tessa Baron, Mr John Crabb, rh Stephen Herbert, rh Nick Murray, Sheryll Barwell, Gavin Davey, rh Mr Edward Hinds, Damian Murrison, Dr Andrew Bebb, Guto Davies, David T. C. Hoban, Mr Mark Neill, Robert Beith, rh Sir Alan (Monmouth) Hollingbery, George Newmark, Mr Brooks Bellingham, Mr Henry Davies, Glyn Holloway, Mr Adam Newton, Sarah Benyon, Richard Davies, Philip Hopkins, Kris Norman, Jesse Beresford, Sir Paul de Bois, Nick Horwood, Martin Nuttall, Mr David Berry, Jake Dinenage, Caroline Howell, John O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Bingham, Andrew Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hughes, rh Simon Offord, Dr Matthew Binley, Mr Brian Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hunter, Mark Ollerenshaw, Eric Blunt, Crispin Dorries, Nadine Huppert, Dr Julian Ottaway, rh Sir Richard Boles, Nick Doyle-Price, Jackie Hurd, Mr Nick Paice, rh Sir James Bradley, Karen Drax, Richard James, Margot Parish, Neil Brady, Mr Graham Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Javid, rh Sajid Patel, Priti Brake, rh Tom Ellis, Michael Jenkin, Mr Bernard Paterson, rh Mr Owen Bray, Angie Ellison, Jane Jenrick, Robert Pawsey, Mark Brazier, Mr Julian Elphicke, Charlie Johnson, Gareth Penning, rh Mike Brine, Steve Eustice, George Johnson, Joseph Penrose, John Brokenshire, James Evans, Graham Jones, Andrew Perry, Claire Brooke, rh Annette Evans, Jonathan Jones, rh Mr David Pincher, Christopher Browne, Mr Jeremy Evans, Mr Nigel Jones, Mr Marcus Poulter, Dr Daniel Bruce, Fiona Evennett, Mr David Kawczynski, Daniel Prisk, Mr Mark Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Fabricant, Michael Kelly, Chris Pugh, John Buckland, Mr Robert Fallon, rh Michael Kirby, Simon Randall, rh Sir John Burns, Conor Farron, Tim Knight, rh Sir Greg Redwood, rh Mr John Burns, rh Mr Simon Featherstone, rh Lynne Kwarteng, Kwasi Rees-Mogg, Jacob Burt, rh Alistair Field, Mark Lamb, rh Norman Reevell, Simon Byles, Dan Foster, rh Mr Don Lancaster, Mark Reid, Mr Alan Cairns, Alun Fox,rhDrLiam Latham, Pauline Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Carmichael, Neil Francois, rh Mr Mark Laws, rh Mr David Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Cash, Sir William Freeman, George Leadsom, Andrea Robertson, rh Sir Hugh 1523 Food Banks 17 DECEMBER 2014 1524

Robertson, Mr Laurence Tomlinson, Justin Warwick (1,100th Anniversary) Rosindell, Andrew Tredinnick, David Ruffley, Mr David Truss, rh Elizabeth Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House Russell, Sir Bob Turner, Mr Andrew do now adjourn.—(Mel Stride.) Rutley, David Uppal, Paul Sanders, Mr Adrian Vaizey, Mr Edward Sandys, Laura Vara, Mr Shailesh 7.10 pm Scott, Mr Lee Vickers, Martin Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con): It is Selous, Andrew Walker, Mr Charles an honour to represent the constituency of Warwick Shapps, rh Grant Walker, Mr Robin and Leamington, particularly in this anniversary year. Sharma, Alok Wallace, Mr Ben The constituency includes the towns of Leamington, Shelbrooke, Alec Walter, Mr Robert Whitnash and Warwick and a number of surrounding Simpson, Mr Keith Ward, Mr David Skidmore, Chris Watkinson, Dame Angela villages, but in this debate I wish to celebrate the 1100th Smith, Chloe Webb, rh Steve anniversary of the founding of Warwick, a town steeped Smith, Henry Wharton, James in history and characterised by a strong community Smith, Julian Wheeler, Heather spirit. Smith, Sir Robert White, Chris Many of the iconic buildings that make up part of Soubry, Anna Whittaker, Craig this history are still standing today, and are integral to Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Whittingdale, Mr John the fabric of the community. The transition from a Spencer, Mr Mark Wiggin, Bill defensive stronghold in 914 to the impressive county Stanley, rh Sir John Williams, Mr Mark town of Warwickshire in 2014 is clear for all to see; Stephenson, Andrew Williams, Roger Warwick has developed over many centuries and is now Stewart, Bob Williams, Stephen Stewart, Iain Williamson, Gavin a remarkable place to live and a popular tourist destination. Stewart, Rory Willott, Jenny I would like to put on the record details of its long and Streeter, Mr Gary Wilson, Mr Rob illustrious history, and reflect on the characteristics that Stride, Mel Wollaston, Dr Sarah shape our town today. Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Wright, rh Jeremy Historic buildings are a defining aspect of Warwick, Sturdy, Julian Wright, Simon including St. Mary’s collegiate church, dating back to Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Yeo, Mr Tim 1123, and the Chantry chapel at the Lord Leycester Swinson, Jo Young, rh Sir George hospital, dating back to 1126. Alongside this historical Swire, rh Mr Hugo Zahawi, Nadhim Syms, Mr Robert grounding and rich heritage, Warwick is home today to Thornton, Mike Tellers for the Noes: a range of fantastic schools, voluntary organisations Thurso, rh John Harriett Baldwin and and businesses, all supported by local residents with a Timpson, Mr Edward Dr Thérèse Coffey dedicated, hard-working and neighbourly nature. It also stages nationally-renowned festivals, from the ever-popular folk festival, now in its 35th year, to the annual Victorian Question accordingly negatived. evening which starts the festive season in a spectacularly traditional way. Our open green spaces remain a picturesque part of Warwick—not least St Nicholas park, alongside the river Avon. As a Warwick resident, I hope to see our open spaces preserved and the beauty of the town maintained. Given the nature of Warwick, excessive development would not be in our best interests and I have campaigned against it. It is widely accepted that the founding of Warwick came in the year 914, when Ethelfleda, Lady of the Mercians, established the settlement—a lady whose face has appeared on many mugs, tea-towels and other merchandising this year. The town was built on a small hill that controlled the river crossing on the road to London, and was strategically placed to control the Fosse way, built by the Romans. It was therefore an excellent location to protect locals from the threat of invasion. According to the etching from 1731 in my office “the town has a pleasant situation on the North side of the River Avon upon a hill”. However, the etching also suggests that there were settlements on this land prior to 914, and that Kimboline, a British King, established a town there around Christ’s nativity. The fortified dwelling was one of 10 built to defend Mercia from the threat of the Danes, and the settlement became the county town of the new shire of Warwickshire in 1001. In 1068, William the Conqueror built a motte 1525 Warwick (1,100th Anniversary)17 DECEMBER 2014 Warwick (1,100th Anniversary) 1526 and bailey castle to gain control of the region and to remain unscathed. However, the town’s luck came to an respond to various uprisings. The famous castle is still end on the afternoon of 5 September 1694. The great an integral part of Warwick, providing a majestic backdrop fire, which almost destroyed the town, spread swiftly and attracting vast numbers of visitors every year. across much of Warwick, destroying or damaging about In 1086, 244 dwellings were recorded in the Domesday 250 shops and houses owing to their timber frames and Book as the settlement started to grow. The fortification close proximity. The impact that this had on the town of the town was completed with the construction of a was far reaching, requiring financial support to rebuild town wall. A market was based in a number of streets the affected buildings. Plans were put in place by the and buildings across Warwick. Because of its location owner of Warwick castle, together with local gentry. away from the main trading routes, there was significant Most of the rebuilding was completed within a few competition from nearby towns for trade. The main years, and the designs were subject to an Act of Parliament. prosperity came from the castle, but trading was certainly This discouraged alterations to the town for a number a major feature, and the market remains a part of weekly of years, but in the 18th century the design of Warwick life in our town today—come rain or shine, traders still became more creative. operate in the square every Saturday. The court house was built in the 1720s and the shire The square also has the statue of Randolph Turpin, hall was replaced in 1758. Although the current shire the boxing champion who won the world middleweight hall is one of the most shocking pieces of architecture title in 1951. He was considered to be one of the best in in the town, it houses the county council. I hope that in the sport throughout the 1940s and 1950s. Wandering 2015 we can start the process of consultation as to the through the square and around the centre of Warwick, merits of a unitary authority. I would like to praise we find a huge array of pubs and restaurants and a Warwick town council for reopening the beautiful building fabulous night scene. that is the court house on Jury street, with the financial By the 15th century, many of the suburbs we see assistance of the Heritage Lottery Fund. The grade 1 today were formed, including Saltisford and Smith Street. listed building has this year become a place for community By the early 17th century the general street pattern was events, and it is wonderful to see it being utilised in this clear, and the town was being shaped as a tight community way. The court house holds fond but anxious memories that continues today. for me personally, as it was at a meeting there in 2002 that I was selected to stand as the candidate for the Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): I Warwick and Leamington seat. congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the I should like to add a little more detail on the castle, Adjournment debate. His constituency is right next to which is undoubtedly one of the most striking features mine, although mine is in Coventry and at one time of the town. William I began its construction in 1068 Coventry was part of Warwick. Will he join me in and it still stands today as a landmark, attracting hundreds congratulating Warwick university, which is partly in of thousands of visitors each year. Passing through Coventry and partly in Warwickshire, as next year will generations of families, the castle provided protection be the 50th anniversary of its foundation? I know he for nearly 200 years, and was converted into a stone takes a great interest in that. structure in 1260. Four years later, Simon de Montfort successfully attacked the stronghold as leader of the Chris White: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s rebellious barons. Caesar’s tower and the dungeons contribution. We work closely together to celebrate the were built in 1350, and Guy’s tower was completed in contribution that the university makes. It was good to 1395. A number of our monarchs have visited the castle join him in marking that anniversary a couple of weeks over the centuries, including Queen Elizabeth I, King ago. I hope Coventry and Warwick can work together William III and Queen Victoria. The castle was attacked to make sure that the university continues to flourish. in 1264, besieged in 1642 and damaged by fire in 1871, In 1552, the court leet was established by a royal but it has stood the test of time. charter, and is still in existence. The group of jurors St Mary’s church also dominated Warwick in its early represent the best interests of the borough, and includes days and is an important part of the town today. It was interesting positions such as constables, overseers of established in 1123 by Roger de Beaumont, the second pavements, an ale taster and a brook looker. This hat-tip Earl of Warwick. The only surviving part that de Beaumont to history is representative of what Warwick is about. I built is the crypt, with the chancel vestries and chapter pay tribute to the current mayor of Warwick, Councillor house being extensively rebuilt in the 14th century by a Moira-Anne Grainger, who helps to continue the fine later Earl of Warwick. The church, along with much of tradition of civic leadership and pride. Warwick, was significantly affected by the great fire. As the county town, Warwick attracted many visitors. The nave and tower were completely destroyed, and the The market remained a feature, and the town became a church as we know it today was rebuilt in the early popular destination. Horse racing was becoming a crowd- 18th century by the brothers Francis and William Smith. pleasing form of entertainment in the 17th century, and There is much to see in St Mary’s church, including with the financial help of Lord Brook, the first race the chapel of the Warwickshire Regiment, several took place on St Mary’s common in 1707. The racecourse monuments to Warwick dignitaries, and the Beauchamp remains a distinct part of the town, holding regular chapel. In this stunning chapel is the tomb of its builder, meetings, and is nationally recognised. Entertainment Richard Beauchamp, the 13th Earl of Warwick. was provided for all tastes as the town grew, and a Beauchamp served Henry IV, Henry V and Henry VI theatre was built in the 1790s. and was a great landowner of the time. His daughter During the civil wars of the 17th century, Sir Robert married Richard Neville, who was known as Warwick Greville sided with the parliamentarians and put the the Kingmaker, due to wielding the balance of power castle in a state of readiness, yet Warwick managed to through the weakness of kings during the first half of 1527 Warwick (1,100th Anniversary)17 DECEMBER 2014 Warwick (1,100th Anniversary) 1528

[Chris White] Aylesford school to join the official turf cutting ceremony on the playing fields, marking the start of the new Aylesford the wars of the roses. I am pleased to be a member of primary school build, which is due for completion and the congregation, and I pay tribute to the rector, Vaughan to open for its first reception intake in September 2015. Roberts, who has for many years led services at St Mary’s. Warwick hospital is also an excellent example of an I also thank the choir and the organist, who put on a outstanding local institution, and recent figures in the wonderful performance at the carol service on Sunday. 2014 Quality Health survey illustrate that 93% of A&E Each year at St Mary’s, the feast of Thomas Oken is patients that responded felt they were treated with celebrated. Oken made a considerable fortune, and left respect and dignity. The dedication and commitment of most of it to fund education and housing in the town. those who work in the hospital are phenomenal, and His attitude to helping those in need is reflected in his only on Monday I had the chance to visit the hospital to will, which distributed funds to the town. A deeply see the beginning of the construction of a new ward, religious man, Oken put the town and fellow residents which will yet further increase their capacity. Myton first, and provided £1 annually for a feast. His house hospice also provides an incredible quality of care and has been converted into Oken’s tea rooms in Warwick, is the pride of many in the district. I hear many moving located near the castle, and his name lives on in Warwick stories about its work, and have had the pleasure of meeting folklore. many of the staff and volunteers who are involved. The Lord Leycester hospital, an historic group of Community projects generally are a real feature of timber-framed buildings dating back to the late 14th century, Warwick. As its Member of Parliament, I have had the is another eye-catching part of the centre of the town, opportunity to become involved with a number of fantastic and has a beautiful 12th century chapel attached to it. initiatives. The Friends of Warwick Station is an excellent The word “hospital” is used in its ancient sense, meaning example, aiming to improve the facilities and aesthetics a charitable institution for the housing and maintenance of our railway station. Recently, children from a number of the needy, infirm or aged. For nearly 200 years, it was of schools across the area joined the group for a flower- the home of Warwick’s medieval guilds. In the reign of planting session, typifying our community spirit. I pay Queen Elizabeth I, it became a place of retirement for tribute to our local papers, the Warwick Courier and the old warriors, and it remains today as an independent Warwick Observer, for raising awareness of such initiatives. charity providing a home for ex-servicemen and their partners. The man in charge of the hospital is still On the political aspect of Warwick, the town is first referred to as “Master” throughout the town. known to have returned members to Parliament in A little further out of town, Guys Cliffe is a large 1275. The parliamentary seat of Warwick and Leamington manor house that is now sadly run down, but it provides that I represent was formed in 1885, bringing to an end a fascinating story about the famous Guy of Warwick. the election of two Members in each parliamentary The legend goes that Guy, the son of a castle steward, Session. Among other predecessors was Sir Anthony won the heart of Lady Felice, daughter of the Earl of Eden who represented the constituency between 1923 Warwick. Owing to their different roles, it was unacceptable and 1957, which gave it its nickname ‘The Garden of for the romance to flourish, so Guy went away to fight Eden’. In his first election victory, Frances Evelyn Greville, as a knight to prove his worth. On returning to Warwick, the Countess of Warwick, stood against Eden as the he married Lady Felice but regretted his violent past Labour candidate. Daisy, as she was known, had joined and embarked on a pilgrimage. On returning once the Social Democratic Federation in 1904, donating more, he settled in a cave at Guy’s Cliffe, overlooking large amounts of money, and supported the great October the Avon, living the rest of his life as a hermit. socialist revolution in Russia. Another institution with its roots in history is Warwick The rich history of Warwick and the heritage that is school, the oldest boys’ school in the country. The stamped on the town can be reflected on with much school was certainly in operation during Edward the pride. Industrially, our area is well known for its Confessor’s reign in the 11th century, and there is a manufacturing expertise, and the recent growth of the statue of him in the entrance hall, but it was probably in sector is a welcome return to our roots. Our local existence around the time of the founding of the town performance in business is a credit to the array of itself. The school was situated in the market place, qualities that the town possesses. Firms operating in before Henry VIII re-founded it as the King’s New more established sectors are also excelling, such as the School of Warwick. At that point, the school moved to National Grid Company, and DCA Design International, what is now the Lord Leycester hospital, having being a world-leading product design consultancy. As many situated in a number of locations. His Royal Highness Members will be aware, we recently celebrated small the Prince of Wales visited this year to congratulate the business Saturday, and I have long been an advocate of school on its anniversary. Fittingly, the under-15 rugby promoting the value that small firms bring to our team became national champions this year, while the economy. I was delighted to walk around the town to under-18s reached the final at Twickenham. visit many of the businesses that are behind the recent resurgence of our local economy, and even managed to Schools across the town have much to pride themselves purchase my Christmas turkey! on. I have had the opportunity to meet many groups of students across the area over the years, and the energy, In the 2015 UK vitality index, promoted this week, passion, maturity and attitude to hard work are clear to for local economies by Lambert Smith Hampton, Warwick see in all our younger people. As a patron of Myton is fifth overall. In addition, our town ranks equal first school, I find that it is always a highlight to visit and to for education in the index. Mr Deputy Speaker, if you welcome students to Parliament each year, and it will be would indulge me briefly, let me say that jobs figures a great honour to present awards at the school’s ceremony released today show that in my constituency there has tomorrow evening. Tomorrow morning, I shall be visiting been a 73% fall in the number of unemployed claimants 1529 Warwick (1,100th Anniversary)17 DECEMBER 2014 Warwick (1,100th Anniversary) 1530 since 2010. That is a remarkable decrease, and I pay want to be a bit premature, 2914 for the 2000th anniversary. tribute to the businesses that have been instrumental in I know my hon. Friend as the Member for Leamington, strengthening our local economy. which is not, I hasten to add, before anyone gets the As I have alluded to, the architecture and aesthetics wrong end of this stick, to disparage his loyalty to of the buildings in Warwick are well known, with areas Warwick. It is important to remember that he represents of special historical interest. Wandering through the Leamington because, as the Minister responsible for the town and the streets that were set out centuries ago is a video games industry, I was privileged to make a visit reminder of our extensive history. J. R. R. Tolkien with him and see the extraordinary companies based in married in Warwick in 1916 and was an admirer of our that part of his constituency. It echoes to a certain town, with some people suggesting that his stories and extent the remarks he made at the end of his speech writings were based on it. As reported in “Warwick: A about the fact that we are lucky to have cities and towns Short History & Guide”, Tolkien such as Warwick that have an extraordinary heritage “found Warwick, its trees, its hill, and its castle, to be a place of spanning hundreds of years but which, at the same remarkable beauty”. time, can adapt and accommodate the modern economy. Since the establishment of Warwick in 914, the town Yet again, I am afraid, my hon. Friend outbid me, has developed across centuries with a continuous sense because not only is Wallingford a pathetic adolescent—not of strong attachment for local residents. Next year, we a pathetic adolescent; just an adolescent—compared will celebrate the 800th anniversary of Magna Carta with Warwick, but his unemployment figures are slightly and 750 years since the Simon de Montfort Parliament, better than mine. His have fallen by 73%, and mine have both important in developing democracy, and it is fallen only by about 67%, but they are still very good incredible to think that the town I represent predates figures indeed. that. I note the presence of the hon. Member for Coventry The castle has always been an iconic and picturesque South (Mr Cunningham), with whom I have shared feature, and St Mary’s church has always stood tall on many conversations. Indeed, a couple of years ago he the skyline. The market square is a great focal point of and I visited the mediaeval Charterhouse in his constituency, the town, and is often a hive of activity, as it has been which he has worked so hard to help restore, and I will for centuries. Only last week, I was sitting in the square continue to work with him on that. At one point he was watching the film “Frozen”, thanks to Warwick Rocks—one so taken with my hon. Friend’s speech that he crossed of many events that local organisers have done so well the Floor to have a word with me. I thought that he might to put on for residents. stay with us, so blown away was he by the rhetoric. Today, we have an excellent hospital, successful schools, The people of Warwick have not been backward in thriving local businesses, and a wonderful community coming forward to celebrate this important anniversary. spirit. Warwick may have come a long way since its There have been the brilliant St George’s day celebrations, establishment in 914, but there is a sense of continuity the walking tours that explain the history of the town with our predecessors, which makes it a truly special and the beer festival at Warwick race course, which town. included—I cannot remember whether my hon. Friend mentioned it—a celebratory beer brewed locally and Mr Deputy Speaker, may I take this opportunity to specially for the occasion. I think that huge commitment wish you a happy Christmas? To the Minister, a happy to the anniversary is to be commended. Christmas, but also to the residents of our fine town, a very happy Christmas indeed. I was delighted to hear that the Prince of Wales visited Warwick to recognise the importance of the 7.32 pm anniversary. I pay tribute to the extraordinary work he has done over so many years to support not only our The Minister for Culture and the Digital Economy heritage, but our modern economy. I was with him (Mr Edward Vaizey): May I add to the great Christmas yesterday at the science museum, where we were celebrating wishes “Happy Chanukah”? I was privileged to go to engineering, and particularly the role of women in the Speaker’s apartments this afternoon to celebrate engineering. Chanukah. I heard the Chief Rabbi refer to the Speaker My hon. Friend pointed to numerous ornaments in as a mensch, which I think should be the new parliamentary Warwick, and of course Warwick castle stands out as term that we adopt to praise our wonderful Speaker. one of the greatest. One does not actually have to visit I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Warwick to appreciate the castle, because a little-known Leamington (Chris White) for his wonderful speech, fact is that it is the building in this country that is most and for allowing me a small walk-on part in this represented by the great Venetian painter Canaletto—there Adjournment debate. It is not often that we get to are five paintings and three drawings extant—who was deliver our maiden speech twice, so I praise him for commissioned by its owners. If you cannot visit the doing so. I missed a trick with the 850th anniversary of castle, Mr Deputy Speaker, I urge you to have a look at Wallingford in my town, which is a stripling adolescent those pictures. compared with Warwick, but after hearing his brilliant My hon. Friend also mentioned Warwick school, speech I intend to stick around for its 900th anniversary, which is indeed the oldest public school in the country. I when I will be 87. I serve notice on my constituents that hope that it continues to have a thriving future, despite I have another 40 years to serve to echo the celebration the plans of the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central that my hon. Friend has held this evening. (Tristram Hunt) in his war with our great public schools. It is quite right that my hon. Friend gave an important The school is also noted for educating two Conservative and lengthy speech, because such a moment only comes MPs: my hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire around every 1,100 years. After all, the next time we (Dan Byles) and the famous Harry Greenway, the former celebrate a similar anniversary it will be 3014 or, if we Member for Ealing North, who I think was known to 1531 Warwick (1,100th Anniversary)17 DECEMBER 2014 Warwick (1,100th Anniversary) 1532

[Mr Edward Vaizey] My hon. Friend also talked about Warwick’s vibrant economy. Our heritage buildings not only provide a you, Mr Deputy Speaker. The current permanent secretary wonderful backdrop for the running of modern businesses, at the Department of Energy and Climate Chance, but are modern businesses in their own right, attracting Mr Stephen Lovegrove, also attended Warwick school, thousands of visitors. Around 80,000 people a year visit as did Christian Horner, the head of Red Bull racing, Warwick town, and many more visit the surrounding but better known as the fiancé of Geri Halliwell. She area. I know that my hon. Friend has done extraordinary will be known to you, Mr Deputy Speaker, as Ginger work as a Member of Parliament to promote tourism Spice—I know that you stopped engaging in popular and discuss with the Government the best ways to help culture about 20 years ago. Of course—this is more in tourism and support the modern economy. tune with your cultural tastes—Sabine Baring-Gould, the author of “Onward, Christian Soldiers”, attended Warwick school in the mid-19th century. Mr Jim Cunningham: Tourists always come to Coventry first, and then they go to Warwick. Warwick’s rich historic wealth is demonstrated by the number of designated assets within its borders. There are just under 1,500 listed buildings, 30 of which are Mr Vaizey: That may be so. grade I, 40 are scheduled monuments, 11 are parks and I commend Warwick, old and new. I have here a press gardens and 31 are conservation areas. cutting with a picture of St Mary’s church that points If I was to make a policy point, I would say that my out that Warwick is one of the top 10 towns in Lambert hon. Friend has demonstrated the importance of Smith Hampton’s annual UK vitality index, where it anniversaries. When we talk in this country about has moved from eighth to fifth place as a place of community cohesion and identity, we should remember economic growth. When we commemorate Warwick’s anniversaries. When we worked with the heritage lottery well-deserved 1,100th anniversary, let us remember that fund, for example, I was pleased to be able to set aside a it is not only a great historic town but one of the top 10 ring-fenced fund of £10 million that could be awarded most vital towns in the country. for anniversaries. I hope that some of the money will support the important anniversary of the battle of Question put and agreed to. Waterloo next year and the very important anniversary of Magna Carta, to which my hon. Friend alluded. Of course, it is also supporting the important commemorations we are conducting at the moment for the first world 7.40 pm war. House adjourned. 501WH 17 DECEMBER 2014 BMI Pension Fund Compensation 502WH

In any event, the outcome of all of these comings and Westminster Hall goings was that the BMI pension fund, and therefore the Pension Protection Fund, received £16 million from Lufthansa. In addition, Lufthansa provided a further £84 million to top up members’ benefits outside the Wednesday 17 December 2014 PPF, even though it did not appear to have a legal obligation to do so.

Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): It is a pleasure [MR ADRIAN SANDERS in the Chair] to serve under your chairmanship today, Mr Sanders, and I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. Does it seem to him that that move in this BMI Pension Fund Compensation takeover was a calculated one to strip 80% of the Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting pension away from those long-serving employees? be now adjourned.—(Dr Thérèse Coffey.) Mark Lazarowicz: Well, that was certainly the outcome 9.30 am in many cases; that was what happened to the pension Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ scheme members. Certainly, it was clear that part of the Co-op): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, agreement that Lufthansa reached with the companies Mr Sanders. taking over the former BMI operation was that effectively the pension scheme responsibility would not go with The issue that I will address today is complex but the airline, which is very concerning and, as I have said, it potentially directly affects many hundreds of people has much wider implications beyond the BMI pension throughout the UK, including many people in the scheme, although I am obviously concentrating on that Edinburgh and Lothian area. In fact, one of my constituents today. is affected, and they have asked me to raise the issue in Parliament. I am glad to have this opportunity to do The arrangement by Lufthansa to top up members’ that, because the issue has wide implications beyond benefits outside the PPF seems, on the face of it, those who are directly affected by it. relatively generous. However, hundreds of staff in the The issue is complex, and I will therefore have to BMI pension scheme will lose substantial sums in pension spend a bit of time setting out the background to it. I money, and I understand from the British Air Line am sure that those hon. Members who are taking part Pilots Association that there are now some people in the in the debate will be familiar with the subject and its Monarch Airlines pension fund who are in similar history, but many of those listening outside this place circumstances. Hundreds will lose out. At least 30 of will not be so aware, so it will be helpful to set out some the BMI pensioners and 13 Monarch members will lose background. more than 50% of their expected scheme pension, and that is taking account of the top-up payments from Let me start with the history. BMI—British Midland Lufthansa. Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs has Airways—was, as Members will know, a major UK decided that although those top-up payments do not airline. It operated from a number of UK airports, and in any sense compensate for the full loss of pension that geographical spread across the UK is reflected in entitlement, they must be taxed. That decision is wrong, the Members who have shown a particular concern and addressing it is the purpose of raising this issue about the issue. They are from the Lothian area, from today. London, from Northern Ireland and from the east midlands itself, where the former headquarters of BMI The tax treatment is, of course, intimately bound up was situated. I know that all of them have been in with issues about the PPF, which is a wider problem correspondence with Ministers over a considerable period. that the Government also need address. I will try to tackle both the immediate and the broader issue, in so As Members will also know, from about 2009 far as I can in the time available this morning. the airline went into a complex set of changes of ownership. Those changes were stimulated by a decision The Government response to the concerns that have of the major shareholder and founder of the airline, been raised by a number of members of the BMI Michael Bishop, who is now a Conservative peer, Lord pension fund scheme has so far been, in general terms, Glendonbrook. He exercised an option that resulted in one of sympathy. They are basically saying, “’Well, the Lufthansa becoming the 100% shareholder of BMI. tax rules are the tax rules and they must be applied, and However, under UK pensions law, at least as applied by that’s really all there is to it.” However, that is not in any the Pensions Regulator at the time, that did not mean sense a satisfactory response—not in the slightest. that Lufthansa took on any legal obligation to fund the Ultimately, the tax rules are what Parliament—we as BMI pension scheme. MPs, and our colleagues in the Lords—decide them to In due course, Lufthansa decided to sell BMI. However, be, and the Government have frequently taken action part of the condition of the sale that Lufthansa agreed to deal with other situations where the application of with the International Airlines Group, of which British the tax law has seemed unfair or inequitable in its Airways is a major component, was that responsibility outcome. for the pension scheme should be removed from BMI. For example, a couple of years ago the Government There was a solution proposed by Lufthansa initially, decided to impose VAT on building alterations to listed but it was not approved by the Pensions Regulator, for buildings. However, because that change would have hit reasons that I will not dwell upon here; they are not churches and other places of worship particularly hard, directly relevant to the subject matter of the debate. the Government set up a special scheme to allow grants 503WH BMI Pension Fund Compensation17 DECEMBER 2014 BMI Pension Fund Compensation 504WH

[Mark Lazarowicz] Just as the payments quite rightly made to the Equitable Life pension scheme members were compensation—they to be paid to those bodies to pay for the costs of extra were not a direct benefit arising from the scheme—similarly, VAT. When the Government want to find a way round the BMI pension fund members have lost out through the rules, they can do so. no fault of their own, and I believe they require better On another pensions issue, a very relevant comparison treatment. The Equitable Life experience shows that can be made with the case of Equitable Life. In that where the Government decide that they want, for political case, although it appeared that the Government had no reasons, to compensate those who have suffered adversely legal obligation to pay those people whose pensions had through circumstances beyond their control, they can been hit by the Equitable Life fiasco, as a result of find a way to do so. I believe that they should do so for political pressure they of course set up a fund to pay out the BMI pension scheme members. compensation—I think it is £1.5 billion in total—to Equitable Life policyholders, which Members across Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): I, too, the House had called for. Of course, the payments to congratulate the hon. Gentleman. He is making a relevant the Equitable Life pension holders will be tax-free, and important point about the difference in how Equitable because the Government passed a law to say that that Life payments and these payments are treated for tax would be the case. Yet the Government are trying to purposes. When I wrote on behalf of some people in my distinguish between the logic behind the Equitable Life part of the world, in Northern Ireland, who are affected scheme decision, and that behind the BMI pension fund by this, the Financial Secretary to the Treasury wrote scheme decision. back: “As I am sure you will appreciate, HM Revenue & Customs has In that context, I will quote a previous Minister, who to apply legislation consistently, and does not have discretion to told the House, or perhaps wrote in a letter—I am not waive rules passed by Parliament.” entirely certain—that: We accept that entirely, but the hon. Member for Edinburgh “Following an Independent Commission report, The Equitable North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) is right to say that Life Act”— the rules are what the Government and Parliament That is, the Equitable Life Pensions Act 2010— decide. In this case there is inequity and it needs to be “came into effect in December 2010 authorising the Government addressed. to make payments to the Equitable Life Payments Scheme. The Act provides that payments under the ELPS are tax free.” Mark Lazarowicz: I agree. That is precisely my point. He said, or implied, that there was a contrast with the I ask the Minister to take a number of steps and, if BMI case, by going on to say: she is not prepared to agree to them today, perhaps she “The £84 million payment made by Lufthansa is a voluntary will at least consider them and come back to hon. payment intended to compensate BMI Pension Scheme members Members at a later stage. for the reduction in pension benefits they may face due to the First, it is right for the Government to ask HMRC to BMI Pension Scheme entering the Pension Protection Fund. review the application of the tax rules in this case. The Where the payment is made into a registered pension scheme, it is subject to the registered pensions scheme tax legislation. As such, trustees of the BMI pension fund did lobby for the rules the payments will benefit from receiving tax relief when it is applying to the then annual allowance limits and the made, but that relief is subject to the normal limits within the lifetime allowance rules to be disapplied in the case of annual and lifetime allowances. The ELPS payment and the the BMI scheme, because of the special circumstances payment made by Lufthansa are therefore fundamentally different of the scheme. I should not have thought that it was and cannot be compared in this way.” impossible for it to review the rules, given the special As I have pointed out, the two cases are “fundamentally circumstances, notwithstanding the legislation that applies different” because the Government passed legislation to to pensions more generally. make them fundamentally different, and not because Secondly, if HMRC will not review the position, I they are, in essence, fundamentally different. These are ask the Government to consider legislating to make a both cases in which people lost out because of circumstances change for this particular case. Again, the Equitable beyond their control, and we have a moral duty as Life scheme is a model that can be followed. Parliament and as Government to respect that in the case of the BMI pension fund holders as well as in the Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- case of the Equitable Life pension fund holders, and op): Will my hon. Friend provide some clarification to indeed in other cases. help me with questions that I may later ask the Minister? I recall that he questioned a former Exchequer Secretary Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): I about this issue in Parliament, who offered to set out congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important more detail in writing. Did my hon. Friend receive that debate and I also apologise to him, because I will not be information? Would anything that came out of that be able to stay for the duration. He is making a really helpful in this debate? important point about the Lufthansa deal. I share his concern about the individuals affected, but does he Mark Lazarowicz: The Minister sent me a letter that I agree that there are implications beyond this individual think was received by all hon. Members who wrote to deal for staff of other companies that might seek to do him about the issue. It was helpful, but I do not think it copycat deals? added anything particular with regard to the concerns that I am raising. Mark Lazarowicz: Absolutely. I have made that point Thirdly, if the Government are not prepared to change already and I will touch on it briefly again. Certainly, the legislation, I ask them to consider making an additional this raises much wider issues. one-off payment to the BMI pension fund scheme to 505WH BMI Pension Fund Compensation17 DECEMBER 2014 BMI Pension Fund Compensation 506WH allow payments to pension fund members to be topped the pension fund members are no longer receiving it up, to at least allow for the fact that tax has been taken from pension funds and, therefore, from the companies off. A parallel to that is VAT on church buildings: by which they were employed. although taxes were increased by the Government, a As I have said, there appears to be a similar development compensation scheme was set up to pay those churches, in the case of Monarch Airlines. Indeed, there is no allowing them to pay the tax back to the Government. reason in principle why this type of arrangement could Things like that can be done when the Government not apply to other company pensions and to people at want to. any income level, not just those who happen to be Fourthly, I ask the Government to move ahead as higher paid, as with members of the BMI pension fund. quickly as possible with the proposals to allow an Clearly, there is something wrong here, both in respect increased cap in the Pension Protection Fund for those of the individuals affected by this case and what is with long service in the pension scheme. I am aware that happening more generally with regard to how the Pension this is a matter for the Department for Work and Protection Fund scheme is used, and particularly in this Pensions and that the relevant Minister has been pursuing case. The situation needs to be remedied. The Government it, but I hope that the Minister here today will urge her need to act, not just for these pension scheme members, colleagues in that Department to introduce those changes but to ensure that this practice is not taken up increasingly speedily, to ensure that there is at least some benefit, by other companies that see a way of escaping from hopefully to members of the BMI pension fund scheme, their pension obligations when they choose to restructure and to others, who are losing out because of the cap in or in other ways change the nature of their business and the Pension Protection Fund provisions. dispose of parts of their operations. At a time of financial pressures, it might be said that I have taken some time today, but this is an important it cannot be a priority for the Government to find issue, not just for those affected by these developments, money to top up pension payments to a group of but more widely. I hope that the Government will workers who will have been relatively highly paid during respond positively to the points that I have made. their work life and will still receive a relatively high pension compared with the average paid for by the 9.48 am safety net of the Pension Protection Fund. I can see that Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I appreciate the argument being made. There might be those who are opportunity to make a small contribution to the debate, cynical and will say that, whereas millions were affected Mr Sanders. by the Equitable Life scheme, only a few hundred people spread across the country are affected here and I thank the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and that, bluntly, that is not going to make a difference in Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) for bringing this matter forward. the general election next year. Indeed, that would be He clearly set out the scene for us all. Hon. Members cynicism, because there is a matter of justice here: these are here because our constituents have expressed concern. people contributed to their pension over many years We are aware of people from Northern Ireland who are and are now going to receive much less than they equally disadvantaged because of what has taken place. expected. This debate is of the utmost importance, because it deals with people’s futures and livelihoods. These are To give an example of the sums lost, let me mention the kinds of issues that Members of Parliament ought my constituent who raised the matter with me, no doubt to deliberate upon. because he is so concerned about what has happened. In 2012, the parent group of British Airways and Even allowing for the Pension Protection Fund guarantee, Iberia, International Airlines Group, struck a deal with he is facing a shortfall of £700,000 on his pension fund. Lufthansa, the then parent group of BMI, to buy the He will receive about £134,000 from the Lufthansa company. The attraction of BMI lay in its control of 9% scheme, so when allowing for the tax taken off the of the valuable slots at London Heathrow. That sets the Lufthansa compensation, he will still be almost £600,000 scene. The matter then became difficult, and BMI employees worse off. found themselves disadvantaged. Originally, they thought Let us bear in mind that the employer did not go the deal was a good one, but it clearly turned out not bust, and the Pension Protection Fund had to bail out to be. the pensions, as it was set up to do. In fact, the previous The deal saw former BMI staff lose £177 million major shareholder sold his shareholding at a profit that from their pensions, because it was structured so that some have estimated to be in excess of £200 million. He IAG could avoid taking on BMI’s final salary pension sold it to Lufthansa, which then sold the entire scheme, which was placed into the Pension Protection company—or most of it, to be precise: of course, bits of Fund. I am deeply disappointed that the Pension Protection it were disposed elsewhere—to IAG. Lufthansa and Fund has not been able to act strongly on behalf of IAG are both international airline companies whose BMI staff. When the Minister replies, she may wish to fortunes go up and down but, bluntly, in most years address that issue. their profits number in the hundreds of millions and billions of pounds and euros. These companies have not That arrangement meant that about 3,700 BMI staff gone bust. and pilots lost at least 10% of their savings, as the PPF pays only 90% of a pension, up to a maximum of In the middle of all this activity, where some people £27,000 a year. The hon. Gentleman gave the example and companies are making lots of money, the long-standing of just one person, which shows the magnitude of the former staff of BMI are losing large parts of a pension figures. for which they worked all their working life. Of course, through the levy they are paying to the Pension Protection Mark Lazarowicz: Perhaps I should explain that my Fund, other companies are paying the costs of understanding is that the Lufthansa compensation was compensation going to the scheme’s members, because graduated in such a way that those with the biggest 507WH BMI Pension Fund Compensation17 DECEMBER 2014 BMI Pension Fund Compensation 508WH

[Mark Lazarowicz] could not. Members asked in Westminster Hall for that to happen—every one of us here today was probably pension losses got the least compensation. At the top here for Equitable Life’s members, and we are here end, only 10% or 20% of the losses were compensated today for the 4,000 BMI workers who have been for, and the rest was lost entirely. Those with long disadvantaged. service suffered the worst. Mark Lazarowicz: The Minister might be nervous Jim Shannon: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his about how much we are asking to be given away, and it explanation, which helps to clarify the matter. might assist her if I say that the 4,000 is the figure for all the scheme members, some of whom will have been As a good-will gesture, Lufthansa agreed to pay below the Pension Protection Fund cap. All the members £84 million in compensation, which staff were offered have an interest, and they all deserve justice of course, as a one-off cash payment or which could be added to a but those who have been particularly badly hit are defined contribution pension scheme. However, staff relatively few in number. were then informed that any cash payments would be taxed. Clearly, there is an issue there. Lufthansa was Jim Shannon: The Minister has been listening intently also advised that it would not have to pay national to Members’ interventions, and we know that she takes insurance on cash payments, even though members of all the detail on board and responds. We look forward the BMI pension scheme were not direct employees of to her response, and we hope we can get answers to the the German airline. questions we are asking. If we do, that would be good Understandably, that has caused a lot of frustration news. among former BMI employees. As far as they are The Sunday Telegraph said BMI pensioners are facing concerned, they worked for x years and paid x into a a “double whammy”. They have not only lost out on pension scheme, which they are now entitled to, but payments, but now face tax and national insurance because of dealings between the parent companies, they payments on what should be straightforward compensation. are now to lose out. We are here for justice and fair play That is completely unacceptable, and I am glad that we for our constituents and for those who have been have the opportunity today to say that on behalf of our disadvantaged. constituents and those who have contacted us. At the time, BALPA, the pilot’s union, said: We are dealing with people’s livelihoods in what are “Pilots in bmi are rightly outraged that their pensions are to be difficult financial times. As the hon. Gentleman suggested significantly reduced. These pilots have invested their careers in in his intervention, the figures involved are not substantial this airline, and a large proportion of their salary in its pension financially, but they have an impact on a great many scheme.” people. In some way, these 4,000 people are disadvantaged. That is how its members felt, and they still feel that way, They have conscientiously paid into a pension scheme, because the issue has not been sorted out. only to be told that they will not get as much as they The BMI Pensions Action Group was set up to seek were initially promised or what they are due. To top it justice for employees who were disadvantaged by the off, when they were actually offered cash payments, company buy-over. When the possibility of BMI’s sale they were told those would be subject to tax. They were first arose in autumn 2011, BALPA sought assurances, almost dragged into the system, but they then found and reassuring noises were made by Lufthansa, which themselves in a difficult position. We must work with said that there was nothing to worry about, and the UK the unions to resolve these issues, because these people Pensions Regulator said it had powers to hold companies are being treated unjustly. There are also implications to account. Members of the scheme received no for other pension schemes. communications after December 2011, when Lufthansa In conclusion, I implore the Minister to take on said it was going to retain the pension obligation. Those board the comments made by the right hon. and hon. in the scheme were led to believe that they were okay, Members who have spoken and those who will speak but they clearly were not. later. On behalf of my constituents and other constituents in Northern Ireland, I ask the Minister to review the Mr McKenzie: The hon. Gentleman is making some situation and give scheme members the moneys they good points. I am sure he will agree that the people should be getting. That is what justice cries for, and that involved have been shabbily treated. Here we see another is what we wish to see. example of people being asked to prepare for their retirement and old age, but when they near that point, Mr Adrian Sanders (in the Chair): I call Graeme their pension is ripped from their grasp. Perhaps the Morrice. Minister could take the issue away—we are talking about 4,000 people, not 4 million—and look again at 9.57 am the issue of taxation being applied to what compensation Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab): Thank you, people have received. Mr Sanders, but it is pronounced “Morris”, although “Morreece” sounds quite posh. As always, it is a pleasure Jim Shannon: The hon. Gentleman’s point is clear. It to serve under your chairmanship. I congratulate my is disgraceful that those whom we represent have been hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh North and treated shabbily, to use his terminology. Like the hon. Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) on securing this important Member for Edinburgh North and Leith and my right debate. hon. Friend the Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds), This issue remains unresolved, and it requires the I ask the Minister to review the situation, because we Government’s attention. I hope that, through the debate, are talking about 4,000 employees. The Government we can make progress for the sake of those affected. did that for Equitable Life, even though they said they The plight of members of the British Midland Airways 509WH BMI Pension Fund Compensation17 DECEMBER 2014 BMI Pension Fund Compensation 510WH

Ltd pension and life assurance scheme was first brought is welcome and the tax treatment of compensation for to my attention by a constituent, Mr Euen Harper of pension cases can be complex, the decision to subject West Calder, who was a pilot. He worked hard over a the compensation offered to members of the BMI scheme number of years and conscientiously paid contributions to income tax is a further blow. It is for that reason that into his pension, but he now faces a set of devastating the Government must intervene to get justice for members consequences. of the scheme. I ask that BMI pension scheme members My constituent first expressed deep concern about are granted the justice of tax-free compensation. I the scheme back in 2012, when it was placed in the therefore call on the Government to use the powers Pension Protection Fund following the decision to sell available to apply discretion in this case. In the same BMI to the International Airlines Group—a decision way that the Government granted Equitable Life scheme that, it should be noted, was between two fully solvent members tax relief as it was considered the right thing international corporations. That decision has had profound to do, so the Government must do the same in this and adverse impacts on the expected pensions of the instance and disapply the rules in light of the treatment scheme’s 3,700 members, including those of current of those affected. At the very least, that is what the pensioners and widows, and it continues to have negative members of the scheme deserve. I look forward to the repercussions today. Minister’s response. The most significant of those is the tax treatment of Finally, I again thank my hon. Friend for raising this the pension compensation fund offered by BMI’s parent important topic. For the sake of all affected, I hope that company, Lufthansa. Members not only had to deal the matter is resolved speedily. with losses to the pensions they worked so hard for, but face being penalised twice by HMRC’s decision to tax the compensation. Jim Snee, chairman of the BMI 10.4 am pensions action group, summarised the scenario that members find themselves in: Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): As always, it is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, “We’ve lost £10, Lufthansa have offered £3 in compensation Mr Sanders. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member and HMRC want to tax us on even that small relief!” for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) on The general secretary of the British Air Line Pilots securing this important debate. Association, Jim McAuslan, also makes an important point when he refers to it as a double whammy. The My hon. Friend raises an important issue on behalf decision has added yet another devastating setback to of the employees and pilots in his constituency who the members’ continuing struggle. I sympathise entirely have suffered as a result of the collapse of the BMI with those affected and applaud the persistent campaigning pension scheme, which entered the Pension Protection of the pilots union and the BMI pensions action group. Fund in 2012. He talked about the tax treatment of the Indeed, without the action taken by such groups, and beneficiaries of those assisted, although I am not sure the efforts made by hon. Members present this morning, that “beneficiaries” is the right word to use in this those affected would not have a political voice. context. The so-called beneficiaries are penalised not only through the tax treatment but by the PPF’s complex Before making my final point in this brief contribution, rules, checks and balances, which do not operate optimally it is important to touch on some of the wider issues for this particular group of employees in this particular arising from the BMI pension scheme scandal. While I industry. In fact, they operate harshly. recognise that this debate is focused on the tax treatment element, the terrible situation faced by members highlights For example, there is the case of the 51-year-old the need for a review of how failed pension schemes are pilot, a father of three, who will see his pension cut by dealt with. It is the view of my constituent and of the 44%; or the pilot who has flown for Monarch for nearly chairman of the BMI pensions action group that it is 30 years, contributing a significant amount to the company too easy for corporate companies to escape their pension pension fund, who has seen his retirement fund slashed responsibilities. Indeed, a similar situation is currently by almost £1.7 million; or the pilot who was just two being experienced by members of the Monarch Airlines and a half years away from his planned retirement when pension scheme after it was placed into the Pension he was told that 50% had been wiped off his pension’s Protection Fund this year. It appears that a dangerous value and that a lump sum would not be forthcoming. I precedent is emerging, as it is becoming more common ask the Minister, or her colleagues in the Department for big corporate bodies to dump their pension scheme for Work and Pensions, to take a fresh look at the rules obligations. The Government and the Pensions Regulator under which the PPF operates. The rules are set by must do more to ensure that companies cannot manoeuvre Parliament, and it is through Parliament that those who their pension scheme responsibilities to the Pension suffer rightly take up their cause to seek some measure Protection Fund. It is simply wrong that hard-working, of redress. innocent members of pension schemes are penalised With the consent of the Chair, I hope to be able to and that their employers can walk away. open out the whole issue to critical scrutiny and to seek What is evident from my constituent’s story, and that the Minister’s support for the difficulties that I shall of many others across the country, is the unfairness of illustrate and that other hon. Members have illustrated. the whole situation. The unfairness is most evident The problem is not confined to participants in the failed among those long-serving members of staff who were BMI scheme: it looks as though it will also affect the due to receive more than £27,000 a year and have now 170 pilot participants and other Monarch ground staff lost 80% of their pension savings. The unfairness means participants in the Monarch Airlines pension fund, that any chance that members had of receiving a reasonable which has been under assessment by the PPF since last form of compensation for their grievance has now been month. In all, the problem will affect around 300 people, dashed. While the compensation offered by Lufthansa and the problem ranges from the tax treatment of the 511WH BMI Pension Fund Compensation17 DECEMBER 2014 BMI Pension Fund Compensation 512WH

[Mr Andrew Love] reason than the career path and pension arrangements available in the aircraft industry. Frankly, such matters pensions to the compensation caps operated by the are outside their control. PPF. I shall focus on the compensation cap as it affects PPF regulations can and do change, often in the the airline industry. interests of equity. Will the Minister undertake to review The PPF compensation caps are in place, as far as I the issue with her officials and the Department for understand it, for two main reasons. First, they protect Work and Pensions to see what can be done to provide a the viability of the PPF itself. The PPF is funded mainly measure of easement? The Pension Schemes Bill is by a levy on its members. Hon. Members will be aware proceeding in another place, so that might be the mechanism that it is not funded by the taxpayer and that whatever through which Ministers choose to make such a change. flexibility of treatment for those affected by pension If that is not possible, perhaps the appropriate Minister fund collapses I argue for today will not result in any will write to me about adjusting the compensation cap, recourse to the taxpayer. I support in principle the what flexibility the Government have and what concept of compensation caps in order to sustain the amendments, if any, might ameliorate the harshness of PPF, but they were not intended to bear down so existing arrangements. Alternatively, the Minister may harshly on a specific group of workers. Fortunately, ask the Department for Work and Pensions or the PPF those who are particularly adversely affected by the to write to everyone taking part in the debate about compensation cap are not vast in number. As was what consideration the Government have given to the indicated earlier, some 3,000 or 4,000 members of the issue and what powers they have to adjust the compensation various schemes are affected, and of those some 300 are cap accordingly. directly affected by the cap. To return to those most severely affected by the Secondly, the compensation cap relates to the concept compensation cap, the European Court of Justice has of moral hazard. The PPF is not designed to be a expressed the opinion that any compensation restrictions backstop for those tempted to speculate on or gamble should not reduce the rights of members of an occupational with pension money and then expect the PPF to pick up pension scheme to below the 50% level required by the the bill if their risky ventures do not pay off. I understand insolvency directive. Will the Minister outline the and sympathise with that concept as it is right in principle, Government’s attitude to the Court’s judgment and but why should those who are unable to affect the whether as a result the PPF rules will be altered to operation of the pension fund be penalised so harshly? I comply with that view? If so, when? am not aware that any of the 300 people directly affected I am grateful to you, Mr Sanders, for the latitude that were in any way involved with the governance of the you have shown. The matters that I have been discussing pension fund or with high-level business decisions inside primarily relate to the Department for Work and Pensions, the companies concerned, yet in terms of the benefits but they are the origin of the strong feeling among that they will receive they are being singled out for airline staff that they have been singled out for adverse particularly harsh treatment. treatment. I have raised the wider issues of compensation Hon. Members might have noted something in common caps as they affect the airline industry, and I hope that between the groups of participants adversely affected the Minister will be able to give a response, or seek one by those pension schemes: they work for airlines. That is from her colleagues in the Department for Work and related to the reason the compensation cap mechanism Pensions, that will address the patent inequality of the seems to operate so harshly. Thirty BMI pilot members way in which certain pension scheme members are of the scheme and 17 Monarch pilot members face treated under the PPF. losing more than 50% of the pension income they originally expected. The 67 Monarch pilots alone stand to lose, in aggregate, around £900,000 a year in lost 10.14 am pension, which is an average of £13,500 per pilot per Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- year. op): It is a pleasure to be in the Chamber this morning, The way in which the PPF operates its cap appears to Mr Sanders, and to have you in the Chair once again. discriminate against those with shorter working careers: I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh the earlier the retirement, the lower the annual cap is North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) on bringing this set; and higher compensation awards for long service important subject before Parliament. Many of us have only kick in after 21 years of pensionable service. The received representations from our constituents—sometimes pension cap also operates in a way that is not helpful, relatively small numbers of people in each constituency, given the typical career pattern of pilots in the aviation but the matter is none the less an important one. It is industry. Pilots normally start their careers in commercial useful to have the opportunity for a thoughtful debate. aviation in their late 20s or early 30s, and the normal pension age for Monarch and other schemes is 55 for My hon. Friends the Members for Livingston (Graeme most pilots. They therefore have far less prospect of Morrice), for Inverclyde (Mr McKenzie) and, most accumulating materially more than 20 years of pensionable recently, for Edmonton (Mr Love) have given us a wider service. picture of the impact of the Pension Protection Fund and tax treatment decisions on the individuals concerned. Only three of the 67 Monarch pilots affected by the The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) also cap, for example, have more than 25 years of pensionable made a contribution, and the right hon. Member for service; none has 30 or more years. As a result, many of Belfast North (Mr Dodds) and the hon. Member for the 300, although beneficiaries no doubt of membership Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) intervened to make of the PPF,are left feeling that they have been short-changed important points that I am sure the Minister will want and made to pay an unreasonable penalty for no other to respond to as well. 513WH BMI Pension Fund Compensation17 DECEMBER 2014 BMI Pension Fund Compensation 514WH

As my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh North will, there can be a way. That is why I am interested to and Leith said in his opening remarks, many of the hear what the financial implications would be. If it is former BMI employees who were in the BMI pension not a huge amount of money for the Exchequer, why scheme have suffered through no fault of their own. can we not resolve the matter in an amicable way? I have They engaged in good faith in the pension scheme, and a great deal of faith in the ingenuity of officials and the decisions taken were not of their making. We are in Ministers when they want to do something, to go away a quite different situation from some of the other resolutions and find some resources and a way of taking things that have had to come from the Pension Protection forward. I hope that the Minister will do that today. Fund, because this does not involve a company going I come back to some of the issues that my hon. into insolvency—the problem arose largely because the Friend the Member for Edinburgh North and Leith company was sold on. Consequently, the buyers did not raised in his opening remarks. I want to put a number of have to take responsibility for the pension fund. Again, points to the Minister. My hon. Friend asked the those are things completely outwith the control of the Government to look again and for the HMRC to review employees. the application of the tax rules in this case with specific As has been acknowledged today, many people might regard to the annual allowance that might result from think, “Well, these folks had relatively good jobs and the additional tax charge being levied. I would be they’ve been relatively well paid”, but there is absolutely interested to hear what the Minister is able to say nothing wrong with that. The fact that people have been about that. in responsible, well paid jobs, contributing to their In her intervention, the hon. Member for Banff and pensions in a decent pension scheme, does not mean Buchan asked about the implications for copycat deals. that if things somehow change or go wrong they have Some of the points that my hon. Friend the Member for any less right to justice in terms of what they receive in Edmonton raised are relevant to that. It would be pension. That is the principled position. I fly fairly unfortunate to say the least if other companies thought regularly up and down from Scotland, and I want to they could somehow avoid doing the right thing by their know that the people flying and crewing the planes that employees simply by going into the PPF, thereby leaving I travel in—the hon. Member for Strangford might be the problem for others to resolve. As has been said, this in a similar position—are well trained, well paid and is not about increased resources having to come from well looked after for the important job that they do. the taxpayer; it is about the industry taking care of As I said, the problem we are discussing was not itself, but a degree of equity and fairness has to be employer insolvency, as is normally the case when a looked at in the industry context. Will the Minister, scheme is transferred to the Pension Protection Fund. along with her colleagues, look again at the PPF and We have heard the figures, but the shareholder sold the the rules and ensure that there are no loopholes that shareholding for a considerable profit, estimated to be incentivise that kind of behaviour, which we would not in excess of £200 million. The shareholding was sold on necessarily think to be a good thing? If HMRC can to Lufthansa, which this March announced an operating review that position, I hope the Government will consider profit that had risen year on year by 62% to about the possibility of making necessary changes to the ¤1 billion. We are definitely not talking about an insolvency legislation, particularly to ensure that the pension holders scenario, which makes things a bit different. affected are not left worse off than they thought they We could look at how decisions were reached or how would be at the outset. the Pensions Regulator operated, but we are where we I heard my hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton are, and we now have to look at the various points that I comment on the situation of those in the Monarch am about to make to the Minister. What can be done to Airlines scheme. I am grateful to him for bringing that resolve the tax treatment issue amicably? Perhaps the to our attention in the detailed way he did. I was not Minister will answer my question when responding, but fully aware of all those points, and I am sure that the what would the financial implications be for the Treasury Minister will respond to them. I hope that she will go if it simply resolved the tax treatment in this case? In the back to her colleagues in the Department for Work and global scheme of things, a relatively small number of Pensions to look at the arrangements that have been people might be subject to such taxation, and in order made to see whether something can be brought forward, to achieve some equity—my hon. Friend the Member even at this late stage, to try to resolve the problems. for Edinburgh North and Leith and others have mentioned In conclusion, we have had a useful debate that has how the Equitable Life scenario was dealt with—can given us information and a number of points on the something more be done to help people? justice of the situation and the technical details of Another important issue is that we would not want the taxation system. I particularly press the Minister on people already in detriment to suffer further detriment the tax treatment of the compensation payments because because of the taxation rules, which appears to be what that is the responsibility of the Treasury, although I has happened with the BMI pensioners. As has been recognise that there are wider responsibilities within the mentioned, the top-up payments that were intended to DWP. I hope that she will go to her colleagues and reduce the detriment are now subject to tax. I am sure assess what she can be done. the Minister will come back and say, “The tax rules are the tax rules and they have to be implemented.” That is 10.24 am true, but the rules can be changed. In certain circumstances they have been changed and there have been different The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Priti Patel): tax treatments. I have only recently finished dealing It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, with the Taxation of Pensions Bill: we went through a Mr Sanders. I thank the hon. Member for Edinburgh whole Bill to ensure that the way certain things are North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) for raising this treated in a tax context can be changed. Where there is a issue in a thoughtful and considered way. I also thank 515WH BMI Pension Fund Compensation17 DECEMBER 2014 BMI Pension Fund Compensation 516WH

[Priti Patel] It may be helpful for me to set out how the tax treatment changes depending on how the payments are all others Members who have contributed to the debate. made. Where pension schemes can make cash payments In addition to interventions, the hon. Members for to individuals, the tax legislation clearly sets out how Edmonton (Mr Love), for Strangford (Jim Shannon) those payments are taxed. Any one-off cash payment and for Livingston (Graeme Morrice) made considered would be liable to income tax and national insurance contributions. contributions, as they are what are known as relevant benefits. It has been put that those payments cannot be It is fair to say that this is a serious and important subject to income tax and NICS because the members issue. Members have rightfully raised their points and of the BMI scheme were not employed by Lufthansa. concerns on behalf of their constituents in a considered However, it is not because the payments are earnings way. As the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun that income tax would apply, but because they are (Cathy Jamieson) just said, these are serious concerns deemed to be relevant benefits. Cash payments are about people’s pensions. These individuals have done subject to tax as relevant benefits when, for example, the right thing by saving and investing in their pensions. they are paid after retirement in connection with past That is right and proper, and they have had the opportunity service, as is the situation in the highlighted cases. to do that through an employer’s scheme, which is to be Relevant benefits are taxable as employment income, commended. Not only the Government, but all Members and there does not need to be a direct link between the are concerned when we hear about issues of this nature. employer and the payee to establish relevant benefits. I start by putting the debate into context from a There is also no statutory requirement for the benefits Treasury point of view. The subject reaches into the to be financed by an employer of the beneficiaries. A territory of the Department for Work and Pensions, scheme for the provision of relevant benefits to employees and I will come on to that, but it would be helpful if I or former employees of an employer commercially linked set out the facts of the case as they are known to the to the one financing the benefits will be in the legislation Treasury. Following the sale of BMI by Lufthansa, the for tax and national insurance contributions. BMI pension scheme was admitted to the Pension Where payments are made into a registered pension Protection Fund. Admittance to the PPF for a particular scheme on behalf of the individuals concerned, there scheme is not a matter for Her Majesty’s Treasury, but will be a different tax treatment. Members would receive for the PPF and the Pensions Regulator. Members will pensions tax relief on their share of the £84 million appreciate that I cannot comment on the details of that payment as well as the exemption from national insurance decision, but I will, as all Members here today have and income tax on the payment they would get with any asked, follow up with the Department for Work and contribution to a registered pension scheme. Pensions on that. I will also pick up on the point that However, the payment to a registered pension scheme the hon. Member for Edmonton made on the pensions could give rise to annual allowance or lifetime allowance cap. As he suggested, I will ask for a response on the charges. Let me explain that further. Pensions tax relief points highlighted about the DWP, the cap and the is one of the Government’s most expensive tax reliefs Pensions Regulator to be sent to every Member who and the gross cost doubled from £17.5 billion in 2001-02 has contributed to today’s debate. to £33 billion in 2010-11. The annual and lifetime The PPF provides compensation to members of eligible allowance has been set to protect the public finances defined benefit occupational pension schemes. The PPF from that growing cost. However, the Government are provides two levels of compensation depending on a still likely to forgo more than £36 billion in tax revenue member’s circumstances at the time the scheme enters this year and more than £39 billion in 2016-17. the fund assessment period. The first is for members The annual allowance is therefore designed to strike who have reached their scheme’s normal pension age or an appropriate balance between providing financial are already in receipt of a survivor’s pension or a incentives to encourage and support saving for retirement pension on the grounds of ill health. The second is for and the fiscal risk to the Exchequer. Therefore, while the majority of people below their scheme’s normal there is no limit to the amount any individual may pension age. Those members are entitled to 90% of the contribute to their pension scheme, there is a limit—the compensation and are subject to the compensation cap, annual allowance—on the amount of tax relief those as outlined by the hon. Gentleman. The PPF rules and contributions can attract in any one year. restrictions apply to all members, which means that Tax relief is given on contributions up to £40,000 a they will not receive all the pension benefits they anticipated. year, but any contributions in excess of that limit will be However, while the PPF strives to award compensation subject to an annual allowance charge. To ease the fairly, compensation relating to pensionable service before impact of the annual allowance charge, the Government April 1997 does not increase in line with inflation each introduced a carry-forward facility, which allows individuals year, so compensation may not equate to the full value to make use of any unused annual allowances from the members would have received had their scheme not three previous years by offsetting them against excess been admitted to the PPF. savings. In many cases, that will result in there not being As has been discussed, to compensate BMI pension an annual allowance charge to pay. scheme members for the loss in expected benefits, Lufthansa As a result, the only people affected will be those offered to make a £84 million voluntary payment either whose pension savings over the past four tax years, as cash payments to the members or into another including their share of the £84 million contribution, registered pension scheme on their behalf. The debate is are worth more than £190,000 for 2014-15 or £180,000 about the tax treatment of that payment. Retirement for 2015-16. If an individual takes pension benefits benefits are subject to tax when they are received, so valued at more than the lifetime allowance—currently one would expect the £84 million payment to be taxed. set at £1.25 million—when they become entitled to 517WH BMI Pension Fund Compensation17 DECEMBER 2014 BMI Pension Fund Compensation 518WH those benefits, they will be liable for the lifetime allowance The hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith as charge. The lifetime allowance charge is 25% if the well as other Members touched on HMRC and reviewing excess is taken as a pension or 55% if it taken as a lump rules relating to the annual allowance and lifetime allowance. sum. As the allowance is set at those generous levels, As my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary has set out, that charge is likely to affect only a small number of HMRC must apply tax legislation consistently and it people. does not have discretion to waive tax charges intended by Parliament. The legislation is clear in respect of that: Cathy Jamieson: What estimate has the Treasury all new contributions into defined contribution schemes made of the number of people who are affected by the are tested against the annual allowance and all benefits lifetime allowance charge and what income will the are tested against the lifetime allowance. Exchequer receive as a result of collecting that charge? It is fair to say that this is a complicated matter that is not at all comparable to Equitable Life. The Government Priti Patel: I will come on to that and address other are familiar with the case, which has been raised by Members’ points as well once I have made some progress. many Members in the debate today as well as in previous Some individuals may have existing enhanced or fixed representations. protection, which means that they can test their pensions against the lifetime allowance at the time at which those Mark Lazarowicz: I accept that there is no direct protections were granted. That is subject to no further parallel with Equitable Life except in the sense that the contributions being made to their pension schemes. As BMI pension fund members and others have also been payments from the £84 million will be relievable the victims of a regulatory system that did not deliver contributions, members who have existing enhanced or what it ought to have done in some way. In recognition fixed protection would lose those rights if the contribution of that, they too deserve some action by Government. was made to a defined contribution scheme. Again, Tax treatment is one suggestion, but the House should only a small number of people will be affected by that. be able to take forward other suggestions as well. Individuals will have a choice about how they access Priti Patel: The hon. Gentleman makes a valid point their share of the £84 million paid by Lufthansa to a that we have an issue with regards to amending legislation defined contribution pension scheme on their behalf. that is meant to apply to all pension savers. We are From April 2015, individuals will be able to access the obviously sympathetic and it is clear that the situation is funds as a lump sum or as a series of payments or they not satisfactory. I will commit to taking away all the can choose to purchase an annuity or draw-down product, considerations and points raised and I intend to raise provided that they are aged 55 or older. Alternatively, them directly with the Department of Work and Pensions, they could choose to transfer to a different pension because what has happened and the effect that that has arrangement. Payments on pensions will be subject to had on people is unacceptable. I am unable to be any the individual’s marginal rate of income tax and no more specific than that, because I am looking at this NICs will be payable. matter from the perspective of tax implications and not I will come on to many of the points addressed in the the overall implications, which would be done by the debate. The hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun Department for Work and Pensions. mentioned the costs for those affected. Those will depend Finally, I will address a point made by the hon. on the precise circumstances and how payments are Members for Livingston, for Banff and Buchan made. Such payments made direct to a scheme will be (Dr Whiteford) and for Kilmarnock and Loudoun about taxable, but the contributions will receive tax relief up the Pensions Regulator and the PPF. I assure the House to the normal limits. We do not have an estimate of the that the Pensions Regulator has the power to take total cost to the Treasury should tax charges not be action when it feels that there is deliberate manipulation applied, but, as I said, that is dependent on the in the affairs of an employer who is effectively seeking circumstances of how the payments are made. to walk away from their pensions liabilities. That is a The scheme was compared in a number of valid point and the Pensions Regulator has powers to contributions to the Government’s approach in the deal with that. It would be wrong for any organisation one-off payments made under the Equitable Life payment to seek to do that and it is solely for the Pensions scheme. It is worth highlighting that that scheme was Regulator to address that. established back in 2011 in response to the parliamentary It is clearly not right to seek to offload pension ombudsman report that identified areas of Government obligations for the wrong reasons. The debate has maladministration in respect to the regulation of Equitable highlighted that where individuals have done the right Life. The Government accepted the then ombudsman’s thing by seeking to save for the future by investing in report and, as a result, made the ex-gratia payment their pensions, it is proper that we have the right safeguards for the loss stemming from what was Government in place. As I have said to all Members today, I will look maladministration at the time. The circumstances to discuss this matter with the Department for Work surrounding the loss of pensions relief for members of and Pensions to see how we can take it further. the BMI scheme is not owing to the Government’s maladministration and, therefore, it is not comparable 10.39 am in that sense at all. Sitting suspended. 519WH 17 DECEMBER 2014 Housing Need (Treasury Assistance) 520WH

Housing Need (Treasury Assistance) tranche of money going to local authorities. Of course, that is not just to build houses, but for other economic purposes. However, it certainly provides a stimulus to 11 am encourage planning permissions for developments. We Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): It is a great pleasure to have seen the growing places fund, the Get Britain serve under your chairmanship, Mr Sanders. I am delighted Building fund, the builders finance fund, the estate to have secured this opportunity to introduce a debate regeneration fund, the single local growth fund and on assistance from Her Majesty’s Treasury for people in public land schemes, which have been announced over housing need, because without question the most pressing the years. and chronic problem in areas such as mine is the lack of In terms of home ownership initiatives, the Government affordable homes for the thousands of local families first tried, in 2011, the First Buy scheme, which was who are inadequately housed or housed in properties closed in March 2013. That was overtaken by the Help with extortionate rental charges. to Buy scheme, a very welcome initiative. It replaced the My area and others are characterised by a very First Buy scheme and is widening the criteria for eligibility significant mismatch between earnings levels and house by increasing the maximum home value up to £600,000, prices. There is a large and growing market for second so it is not just for first-time buyers, but for those homes, investment homes and retirement homes. Of looking to move up the ladder. There is the NewBuy course, over the years there has not just been the 50% council Guarantee scheme and the Help to Buy: mortgage tax discount for second home owners, which was introduced guarantee scheme. There is the right to buy and, in a in the early 1990s; other incentives are available that moment, I will come on to shared ownership. encourage, that are a further stimulus for, the purchase In the private rented sector, there is the Build to Rent of second homes especially and investment properties fund and the private rented sector guarantee scheme. in areas such as mine. For example, people can take Then there are other schemes, such as real estate investment massive advantage of small business rate relief if they trust schemes and self-build and custom-build schemes; are letting their properties in the local holiday market, and two elements of the recent autumn statement were while also of course using them for their own use; and on the subject of shared ownership. by shifting from council tax to business rates, they can Obviously, all those schemes and all the things that end up paying absolutely nothing in terms of their will provide a stimulus and assistance, which might be contribution. That is a further and often hidden stimulus targeted at the groups that I am talking about, are for the purchase of second homes. welcome, but whether they are sufficient and will help in I have undertaken surveys of estate agents across my areas such as mine, only time will tell. I will be making a constituency on three occasions, and we have found suggestion today about what we need to do in areas that over time it has become the case that somewhere such as mine. I am not saying that this needs to happen between four and six times as many properties are sold across the country, but it certainly needs to in areas with to second home buyers as to first-time buyers. That is a a significant mismatch between earnings levels and very significant and quite shocking statistic. It shows house prices and extortionate private rents, and that are what is going on in markets such as mine. I am not characterised by a social rented sector that is significantly saying that that is happening in the rest of the country, smaller than that in many urban areas. Less than 10% but it is certainly happening in constituencies such as of the stock in my area is social rented accommodation. mine, which are very attractive for second home purchases. We need to construct a new lower rung on the housing There is a rather macho obsession with building ladder. The lowest rung on the housing ladder is out of homes as the sole, two-dimensional solution to our reach for the vast majority of people, who, in other housing problems, but that does not work. Cornwall circumstances—perhaps decades ago or in other parts has been one of the fastest growing places in the United of the country—would consider it reasonable for them Kingdom in the past 40 to 50 years, so we have done to expect to be able to move into home ownership by exactly what successive Governments have encouraged the time they leave their parental home. I am talking us to do; we are certainly not nimbys. However, although about teachers and nurses—people in stable professions the housing stock has significantly more than doubled who simply cannot get into the housing market. It is in that period, the housing problems of local people those people whom I particularly want to help—those have become significantly worse, so we know that simply who have an expectation, a reasonable aspiration, of building thousands of houses is not in itself the answer. moving into home ownership, but who simply cannot We need to do something a little smarter to target those and are then locked into the extortionate private rented who are in particular housing need in areas such as market. mine. I want to address myself to the need to find constructive Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): I apologise for solutions that would work in areas such as mine. First, I missing the start of my hon. Friend’s speech. He mentions acknowledge and congratulate the Government on some key workers. I represent a rural area, albeit in Wales. I of the things that they are doing. Since 2010, whether suspect that it is out of the ambit of much of what he is there has been new money or a replication of old money saying, but one problem that we are having now is the or a continuation of programmes that the previous difficulty of keeping key workers in west Wales—I am Government had engaged in, we have seen various thinking of the health service and teachers—for exactly things happen. We have seen the affordable homes the reasons that he has identified. Does he agree? Is that programme, the affordable homes guarantees programme, a concern in west Cornwall, too? the trial of direct Government provision—a new delivery model—the affordable rent to buy scheme, which was Andrew George: That is absolutely right. As I said, introduced in 2013, and the new homes bonus, on which this issue is not unique to west Cornwall and the Isles of an announcement was made yesterday about the latest Scilly. The Isles of Scilly has a particular market that is 521WH Housing Need (Treasury Assistance)17 DECEMBER 2014 Housing Need (Treasury Assistance) 522WH different from that in other areas: it is more like a schemes to get off the ground, and to facilitate the London market than a rural market. Nevertheless, as resale process for such properties. I strongly encourage my hon. Friend rightly says, this issue is so significant in the Government to look seriously at that proposal. many parts of the country. It is without question the I am looking forward to hearing from the Minister in most significant social challenge that we face. The a moment, and I have sent her a proposal for the Government can and should do more, and I hope to establishment of an intermediate housing fund, on which encourage them to do so. I have worked with the National Housing Federation. I I said that we need to construct a new lower rung on am not precious about the details of that proposal, but the housing ladder. There are problems with shared I hope that this Government, the next Government or ownership accommodation. First, there is not enough some other Government—I do not think that this is a of it; there is not an effective market. There are only two party political issue; surely, people across all parties can lenders lending to those purchasing shared ownership see the logic and the common sense in this—will consider accommodation—Nationwide and Halifax—and those the concept of such a fund, which would not only lenders are extremely circumspect and apprehensive. benefit the kind of people whom I described earlier, but They look at these schemes on a case-by-case basis and would be facilitated and enabled by registered social are extremely cautious, particularly at the point of landlords and community land trusts. resale, which is often a significant discouragement to Under my proposal, the intermediate housing fund the development of the shared ownership market—that would be administered by the Homes and Communities new lower rung on the housing ladder. Agency, although it does not necessarily need to be. It Also, occupants tell me that they have to pay near could be an independent body similar to the green market rents on the remainder, the share of the property investment bank. It would encourage a lending environment that they do not own, and they feel that they are not that would enable the liquidity necessary to take schemes rewarded for maintaining the property or for any forward. I believe that it would be a real game changer improvements and investments. The cost and burden of in the sector and that it would enable progress to be maintaining or improving the capital value of the property made. I have asked housing associations why they do is not shared with the housing association or registered not engage and buy back properties when people find it social landlord that owns the other part of the property. really difficult to sell them on, and the housing associations The home owner’s share of the property is often less have told me that to do so would count against their affordable by the time of sale, and the sale process is contingent liability and restrict their ability to develop often over-long and legally complex. new schemes. For various reasons, it would be far better to set up an intermediate housing fund to facilitate such I note that in the autumn statement the Chancellor a solution. announced that the Government would extend the stamp duty land tax multiple dwelling relief to include lease The Minister will not be surprised to hear that my and lease-back arrangements with housing associations question to her is a simple one. Taking into account all on shared ownership properties, with a view to increasing that I have described, including the problems and my investment in shared ownership. The National Housing congratulations to the Government on their work so Federation has welcomed the measure as something far, I believe that my proposal is the most significant that may be of assistance. Lowering the stamp duty way of taking the matter forward. Therefore, will the land tax on multiple purchases of property from 4% to Government look carefully at extending the tools available 1% may get institutional investors into the market. That to develop and scale up shared ownership and other can only be welcomed, and it must be kept under review. intermediate housing products as an essential solution In addition, I note that the Government intend to work in areas, such as my constituency, which have high with housing associations, lenders and the regulator to house prices and low wages? identify and lift barriers to extending shared ownership, which will include consultation on options for streamlining 11.15 am the process for selling on shared ownership properties. I welcome that initiative to work with those associations The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Priti Patel): and others to find a way forward. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the second debate this morning, Mr Sanders. I congratulate I think I have described reasonably well some of the the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) on current problems with the development of the shared securing the debate. He recognised the importance and ownership market. However, the National Housing significance of housing need and housing pressure, Federation welcomes the Government’s proposals. I while acknowledging the work that the Government hope that the dialogue will be constructive and that the have done in the area. Hon. Members come up against Government will keep an open mind about the kinds of many pressures and concerns in their constituencies tools that could be brought into play to enable a significant regarding the affordability of home ownership. There is scaling up of activity in the sector. no doubt that that has been a challenge for the Government. When it comes to solutions, my constructive proposal We are addressing the need and introducing schemes is to ask the Government to act not necessarily as a through which we can do something about it, and we funder but as a guarantor. The Government—brilliantly, are engaging with and listening to communities around in my view—established the green investment bank. In the country, and with hon. Members such as the hon. the same way, I suggest that rather than spending money Gentleman, on solutions. that they cannot recoup, they should establish an affordable The Government are absolutely committed to making homes fund or intermediate housing fund. Such funding the aspiration of home ownership a reality for as many could be revolved to provide the necessary liquidity and households as possible. Across the country, there is a confidence among lenders to enable shared ownership problem with demand for housing, which has consistently 523WH Housing Need (Treasury Assistance)17 DECEMBER 2014 Housing Need (Treasury Assistance) 524WH

[Priti Patel] Last week, the Government announced that we have awarded the licence for the private rented sector housing outstripped supply. It was interesting to hear the hon. guarantee scheme, which will help create a new market Gentleman mention that, in his constituency, the demand for institutional investment in the private rented sector. for second homes is outstripping supply, which is changing All those things help support the Government’s aim of the marketplace and having an impact on the ability of expanding the provision of rented housing, which will first-time home buyers to get on the housing ladder. help the wider economy by delivering an economic It is our role as a Government to do what we can to boost and increasing choice. It will also improve housing help households that are struggling to get on the quality for tenants. Although I do not have time to housing ladder. speak about improving housing stock, it is a key issue for tenants in affordable homes. The rate of home ownership in the United Kingdom has fallen from its 2003 peak of 70% to about 65%. We We remain committed to establishing shared ownership are committed to ensuring that future generations get to as a route to home ownership and making it more experience the benefits of owning their own home in the attractive to households and investors. We will consult same way as their parents’ generation did, which is why on streamlining the process for selling on shared ownership we have taken clear steps to increase housing supply, properties. In the autumn statement, we announced build more affordable housing and help people to afford that we will extend the scope of stamp duty, which the a home without relying on parents and other family hon. Gentleman mentioned. Stamp duty is incredibly members for financial support. The hon. Gentleman important, as it affects first-time buyers’ ability to get has spoken about the reform of planning laws to unlock on the housing ladder. Our scheme is a vital means of more housing supply, and that is exactly what the supporting home ownership, and it will also cut the cost Government are doing. The autumn statement package of property purchasing for up to 98% of buyers. contained specific commitments to release land with a Building more homes is a priority. The hon. Gentleman capacity of up to 150,000 homes, and to introduce new mentioned the Help to Buy scheme, which has helped measures to support up to 133,000 new homes, including more than 66,000 households to complete mortgages—more affordable homes. Affordable homes are the key to this than 30,000 have been helped by the mortgage guarantee debate. The hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) scheme and 36,000 have been helped by the equity loan mentioned key workers in his intervention, and they are scheme. The vast majority of those people—81%—are important. It is incumbent on the Government to ensure first-time buyers, which is to be supported and commended. that we address key workers’ need when it comes to Importantly, more than 94% of all completions are affordable homes and changes to planning. Key workers outside London. We are doing everything we can to support our front-line public services, and it is essential support the market outside London in constituencies that we have the right kind of housing support for such as the hon. Gentleman’s and rural constituencies, them. where access to home ownership and new homes has Our policies are bearing fruit. Planning approvals been challenging. and housing starts are at the highest level for six years. Construction activity, as we see across the country, is Andrew George: I appreciate what the Minister is really gathering pace and has expanded at the fastest saying. Having mentioned shared ownership, Help to rate for 10 years. We have the national infrastructure Buy and other related schemes, she is coming to the nub plan, which is incredibly important to support housing of the issue. We must extend the logic of those schemes demand. That contains further measures this year for to the intermediate housing sector. There is still a large specific new developments to transform communities cohort of aspiring professional people and others who through housing in Bicester, Ebbsfleet and Northstowe simply do not have the opportunity to get into the in Cambridgeshire. Alongside that, billions of pounds housing market without Government help. of public money—some £4.5 billion during this spending review and more than £5 billion to 2020—is being Priti Patel: The hon. Gentleman makes a valid point. invested in providing new affordable homes. Almost He is absolutely right. 217,000 new homes have been delivered by the Government since April 2010, and a further 275,000 will be provided On Monday, the Prime Minister launched a new in the five years from April 2015 to 2020. Again, it is scheme that will offer 100,000 first-time buyers new about delivering affordable homes in this and the next homes at a 20% discount. That enabling factor is a Parliament. crucial part of our major push to help people get on the housing ladder. The Government have a role to play in Under the previous Government, there was a net enabling ownership. reduction in social rented homes from 1997 to 2010. That is why, as the hon. Member for St Ives rightly In addition to our changes to the planning system, we highlighted, we are helping housing associations to are freeing up underused or unviable brownfield land. access funding. In the 2012 housing package, we introduced There are many aspects of the housing debate that we a £10 billion housing debt guarantee, which enabled could discuss, including planning and turning around private organisations to access cheaper debt funding to land that is not being used in a viable way. We must free deliver homes for private and affordable rent. We also up underused and unviable brownfield land from planning announced up to £3.5 billion for affordable housing. costs and levies in return for below market value sale Our delivery partner, Affordable Housing Finance, issued prices for the homes that are built on those sites. its first bond to raise funding under the new scheme in On the hon. Gentleman’s point, I have said that May, which was priced at 3.76%—the lowest-priced shared ownership is an integral part of the affordable bond in the history of the affordable housing sector. homes programme. His private Member’s Bill seeks to More than £1 billion of debt has now been guaranteed. expand the provision of intermediate housing. I assure 525WH Housing Need (Treasury Assistance) 17 DECEMBER 2014 526WH him that the Government are committed to intermediate Post Office Mediation Scheme housing, and we are always looking at what more we can do to assist, enable and support people. [NADINE DORRIES in the Chair] Andrew George: An earlier draft of my Affordable 2.30 pm Homes Bill, which I have shared with the Minister, included a proposal to establish an intermediate housing Mr James Arbuthnot (North East Hampshire) (Con): fund, although I had to remove it because I could not It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, get sufficient political support for it. In my conversations Ms Dorries. I am new to this. In 28 years in the House, I with the National Housing Federation, it estimated that have never needed to apply for an Adjournment debate, the kind of fund that would be sufficient to facilitate but the way in which the Post Office has treated sub- that sector is in the region of half a billion pounds. postmasters and Members of Parliament who have However, that would be an investment fund, not funding expressed concern about the matter is so worrying, and that is lost. to my mind shocking, that in my final few months in Parliament it has become necessary for me to apply for Priti Patel: I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s thoughtful an Adjournment debate. To the extent that I make points in this debate. mistakes, Ms Dorries, please correct me and appreciate Housing is a challenging issue, as we have discussed that I am new to this game. in the short time available. The Government are working I am grateful to hon. and right hon. Members for assiduously to do many things. I have spoken about the turning up in considerable numbers, which shows the many measures that the Government have undertaken importance of this issue. The background hardly needs to help the housing market. We are seeing great trends, explaining. In 2000, the Post Office introduced the positive improvements and growth in access to affordable Horizon accounting system. A spate of concerns began housing. We are providing assistance to aspiring home to arise shortly afterwards. Sub-postmasters across the owners and giving them the opportunity to get on the country experienced discrepancies in their accounts, housing ladder. which they had to balance at the end of each day. Some of those accounts were over what they ought to have Andrew George: This is my final intervention before been, and some were under what they ought to have the Minister concludes. I had discussions with the National been. Some sub-postmasters found themselves closing Housing Federation, community land trusts and others their post offices on a Saturday with one balance and when I was developing my proposal. As the Government opening on a Monday to discover that the balance was are consulting on how to develop the shared ownership entirely different. All those discrepancies created such model, will the Minister or one of her colleagues meet concern that Mr Alan Bates set up the Justice for me and representatives from the National Housing Subpostmasters Alliance in 2009. He is the hero of this Federation and community land trusts to see whether story because he has been working since 2009 for no pay we can take these ideas forward? and has been doing a fantastic job. On the Horizon system, the jury is still out on the Priti Patel: I thank the hon. Gentleman for the software itself, but the fact that no software fault of any opportunity to respond to that point. The Government major size has yet been found does not mean that none are putting in place many reforms and measures. Again, exists. I can give an example because last week Charles I thank the hon. Gentleman for his contribution to this Goodwin, a retired computer programmer, wrote an debate. Either I or one of my colleagues will discuss this e-mail to me setting out how collusion and fraud by matter further with him to see what else we can do. unknown third parties could give rise to some of those I assure the hon. Gentleman and the House that cases. He set out how that could come about, which I the Government are committed to supporting aspiring will not repeat because I do not want to encourage home owners—we are doing a great deal in that area— people to do it. His hypothetical fraud, which fits some and helping home ownership. We take a continued and of the facts of these cases, would be very hard to significant interest in this area, and we will continue to disprove. If a sub-postmaster who had suffered such a take a wide range of action. fraud began to complain too loudly, the fraudsters could simply reimburse the sub-postmaster and move 11.28 am on to another victim. The poor sub-postmaster might have been told, as my constituent Jo Hamilton was told, Sitting suspended. that they are the only person suffering glitches. Such a sub-postmaster would then be tempted to help the fraudster by committing false accounting just to buy enough time to work out what on earth has happened. I am not saying that that did happen; it is just that we cannot prove that it did not happen. On the software itself, and on the possibility of fraud, the jury is still out. The jury is not still out on the Post Office help system, which was inadequate, as the Post Office acknowledges. I know of two examples in my constituency, and the Post Office is addressing one of them. That reflects the position across the country. Other hon. and right hon. Members will have some cases that they know of and some cases that they do not know of. 527WH Post Office Mediation Scheme17 DECEMBER 2014 Post Office Mediation Scheme 528WH

Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): right hon. Gentleman’s understandable lack of faith The case of Haji Abbas, who runs the Selsey Road post shows that there is no avenue for the many people who office in Edgbaston, was investigated. He was found not were outside the initial mediation scheme. guilty but his post office was closed. There was an allegation of his having lost £90,000, and he feels that Mr Arbuthnot: I know that the hon. Gentleman was he has lost an additional £60,000, yet the Post Office is intending to have an Adjournment debate; I am very not reopening the branch. Someone has lost their livelihood sorry that I pinched his idea and did it instead. I am following unfair allegations, and nothing is being done grateful for his support on this issue. He has been to redeem it. making these points for some time. We must get to the bottom of these cases, and I am afraid that we cannot Mr Arbuthnot: I suspect that during the course of this rely on the Post Office to see right. debate we will hear all too many stories exactly like that My constituent, Jo Hamilton, pleaded guilty. She had one, with awful things happening to sub-postmasters a choice between risking prison for theft and pleading and nothing being done about it. I have already mentioned guilty to false accounting, and she decided that the risk my constituent Jo Hamilton, who pleaded guilty. She was too great. I do not believe that that is the way our first found that there was a discrepancy of, I think, criminal law should work. Residents of her village, £2,000. She rang up the help desk, which told her to South Warnborough, do not believe that she is a crook press certain buttons, and immediately the discrepancy any more than I do, so they paid thousands of pound doubled to £4,000. Eventually the discrepancy rose and towards the money that the Post Office was demanding. rose to more than £30,000. There was no proper Another sub-postmaster, Julian Wilson of Astwood investigation by the Post Office. She told the “Today” Bank, gave an interview to Radio 5 Live last week. He programme last week, had a similar story. His wife was convalescing from a “they couldn’t prove I did it, but I couldn’t prove I didn’t.” tumour and her father had been diagnosed with terminal cancer. He therefore did not want to put his family Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con): Is it a matter of under strain, so he pleaded guilty to false accounting to concern to my right hon. Friend, as it is to me, that all avoid the accusation of theft. Like Jo Hamilton, he now the Post Office prosecutions have been conducted in-house? has a criminal conviction. Noel Thomas of Anglesey—it The Crown Prosecution Service has not been consulted, is good to see the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert and therefore there has been no element of independent Owen) in his place—was found guilty of theft and sent scrutiny prior to the prosecutions’ commencement. to prison, as were many others up and down the country. Mr Arbuthnot: My right hon. Friend was the instigator It may, of course, be that the trade of sub-postmastering of my first meeting with the Post Office, which was was infiltrated by a sudden rash of criminals. I have met during the previous Parliament. Unfortunately he was a lot of those people, and I personally do not believe it. then translated to the Cabinet, so he was unable to pursue these issues as he had previously. He is absolutely Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): right, and I will return to his point in my suggestions, Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the Post Office is which I hope the Minister will consider. able to bring criminal prosecutions in cases that have already gone to the Crown Prosecution Service, even if Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): the CPS believes that there are insufficient grounds for a The conundrum that one of my constituents had is prosecution? slightly different. She was prosecuted and found guilty. Her claim is that that was totally unfair and wrong, but Mr Arbuthnot: As my hon. Friend suggests, and as she put into the scheme too late for the deadline. Now, my hon. and learned Friend the Member for North of course, she is being offered a review by the Post East Hertfordshire (Sir Oliver Heald) suggested earlier, Office, but she is not very confident that it will do a it is becoming increasingly untenable for the Post Office thorough review. Does my right hon. Friend have any to act as its own prosecutor without the independent thoughts on that? If it is only a short period after the look that the Crown Prosecution Service would bring. deadline, should it not be possible for her to go into the My impression is that the Post Office shares that view, scheme? and the sooner it can get rid of its responsibility to prosecute—I believe it should happen today—the better. Mr Arbuthnot: Three or four weeks ago I would have In the light of all those cases, Members of Parliament given a different answer to my hon. and learned Friend’s got together. My right hon. Friend the Member for question, but I am afraid that I no longer have faith in West Dorset (Mr Letwin) and I went to see the chairman the scheme. Whether his constituent wishes to be in a and the chief executive of the Post Office, who then scheme in which she may or may not have faith has to came to meet right hon. and hon. Members. They be up to her, but the Post Office certainly should not suggested that they should set up an independent forensic have an arbitrary cut-off point for examining such investigation, and they appointed Second Sight to do issues of injustice. I know that my right hon. and that work. Second Sight identified concerns that gave learned Friend will continue to pursue the issue. rise to the mediation scheme that we are discussing today. Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): I have three Second Sight did not identify major software issues cases in my small constituency that are outside the in its interim report. It must follow that the mediation mediation scheme, but many people, including me, had scheme was set up to deal with the issues of support and faith that the mediation scheme would progress well the surrounding issues relating to the sub-postmasters. and give us some hope that there would be a silver lining The Post Office agreed to a mediation scheme that was at some point for those who are outside the scheme. The to include those who had pleaded guilty. It is almost too 529WH Post Office Mediation Scheme17 DECEMBER 2014 Post Office Mediation Scheme 530WH obvious to say this, but in view of what the Post Office have not appeared in front of the working group when has been doing I have to do so: I would never have the Post Office is arguing that they should be excluded agreed to a mediation scheme that excluded people who from mediation. Despite the Post Office’s heralding the pleaded guilty, such as my constituent, Jo Hamilton. I payment of professional support for all those sub- would not have agreed to one, and neither would right postmasters, in practice it is a sham. It is doing it in the hon. and hon. Members throughout the House. interests of the integrity of the scheme. That is what the Post Office agreed; let me turn to What conclusions must we reach, therefore? The Post what it actually did. In the working group for the Office has built up the hopes of sub-postmasters so the mediation scheme, the Post Office began this year to scheme has their support. It has broken its word to argue that the issues of concern that were identified by Members of Parliament in so many different respects Second Sight should be excluded from mediation—for that it is frankly bewildering. There are many ways to example, the absence or ignorance of contracts, and the describe it, but I think the best is to say that the Post failure of audits and investigations—despite its agreement Office has been duplicitous. It has spent public money with Members of Parliament that the scheme would on a mediation scheme that it has set out to sabotage. cover the issues in the interim report. I understand that In the “Today” programme interview last week, the the Post Office has been arguing in recent months at the Post Office spokesman said: working group stage to exclude 90% of the cases coming before the working group, despite everybody’s “I am really sorry if people have faced lifestyle problems as a understanding that exclusion from mediation was to be result of their having been working in Post Office branches.” the exception, not the rule. Extraordinarily, the Post These are not “lifestyle problems”. Jo Hamilton had to Office argued to exclude people who had pleaded guilty, get help from her parents as well as from her village. despite its express agreement to the contrary with me Her mother and her father then both had a stroke. Was and other right hon. and hon. Members, and despite the that connected? I suspect that it was. Some sub-postmasters fact that it knew that we would not have agreed to a lost their businesses, their houses and their reputations; mediation scheme otherwise. some went through divorces and lost their families; some had to live in their cars; some had health problems; Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): I am grateful and Noel Thomas and others went to prison. Those are to my right hon. Friend for leading on this issue and for not “lifestyle problems”. bravely taking the case of many people in the postal The Post Office spokesman also said that, “It’s not sector to the management. From his discussions with yet over.” If it was up to the Post Office, it would be; the the senior management of the Post Office, is there any Post Office is trying to close down the mediation scheme. sign that it now recognises that it made mistakes? Is And for some who have been through mediation it is there any willingness on its part to recognise that at actually over, because they have experienced legal bullying least some of those people are completely innocent and and the Post Office has no intention of getting to the deserve an apology and compensation for the way that bottom of what went wrong. Documents have been their lives and businesses have been wrecked? destroyed or lost.

Mr Arbuthnot: That is a very difficult question to Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): answer, because the Post Office pleads secrecy. It will I congratulate my right hon. Friend on the enormous not tell us what is happening in the mediation scheme. amount of work that he has done on this matter. I, too, We asked in July how the mediation scheme was going, am concerned about the length of time involved and the but it refused to tell Members of Parliament because it lack of information. The mediation process requires was all confidential. information from both sides. My constituents make the point that they requested audit trails and they just have Mr Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon) (Con): I not been given them, which seems to confirm exactly congratulate my right hon. Friend on securing this what my right hon. Friend is saying at the moment. Can debate and on the huge amount of work he has done on he confirm that that practice—people not getting the this issue over many years. information they need so that they can defend Unfortunately, this saga has seriously affected the themselves—has been fairly widespread? reputation of one of my constituents. I use the word “saga” because what I find so unacceptable—I think my Mr Arbuthnot: Well, yes, it has been. My hon. Friend right hon. Friend was just coming to this—is the delay. has been working on this issue since the very beginning. For year upon year, people’s reputations have been on Obviously, constituency cases are confidential to the line and sub-postmasters have not known what their constituency MPs. All I can say is that my own constituent, status or position is or how the issue is progressing. I Jo Hamilton, has been told that she cannot have a result find the Post Office’s foot-dragging, inefficiency, and until after Second Sight has produced its report in years of delay absolutely unacceptable. April. I first became concerned about her case in 2008, and this sort of time lapse is utterly unacceptable. Mr Arbuthnot: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Not only is the Post Office doing this in breach of its When people’s houses are being repossessed, as is happening word to Members of Parliament and in breach of its throughout the country, time really matters. duties to the people it works with—the sub-postmasters— The Post Office has been arguing that these cases but it is undermining and belittling the work of the should be excluded. It has been doing it at a stage of the forensic accountants whom it chose. It is the independence process when there is not professional representation in of these accountants, which MPs initially questioned front of the working group, because no professional but which we now welcome, that the Post Office finds advisers have appeared before it. Even the sub-postmasters hard to take. 531WH Post Office Mediation Scheme17 DECEMBER 2014 Post Office Mediation Scheme 532WH

[Mr Arbuthnot] Mr Arbuthnot: My hon. and learned Friend makes an interesting point. The thing that I am worried about The Post Office has accepted that its support systems most is that it is often impossible to find those flaws in left much to be desired, and as a result it has changed the software that could have caused some of these them. The sheer number of calls to the Post Office problems. Second Sight’s interim report did not find helpline is astonishing. The calls are from professional major problems with the software, but as I said at the users, but tens of thousands of them were abandoned; beginning that does not mean that such problems did they were not just made, but abandoned. Jo Hamilton not exist. encountered support staff who could not tell her what To my mind, the Post Office’s behaviour towards was going on. She herself had not been trained at all, let MPs gives some credence to the complaints that have alone trained to deal with issues such as this. What has been made by sub-postmasters about its behaviour towards the Post Office done about the absence of such training? them; if the Post Office can treat MPs like that, how will It has blamed Jo herself, and others like her, for not it deal with people who are frightened and bankrupt? having asked for more training, despite the fact that it Somehow in all of this saga, although it is hard to think should have been clear to the Post Office itself, if it was that it would be possible, the Post Office has managed not clear to Jo herself, that she needed such help. to tarnish its own reputation still further, while again tarnishing the reputation of sub-postmasters. Mike Wood (Batley and Spen) (Lab): Indeed, has the Post Office not done more than that, because as late as As right hon. and hon. Members know, I have handed 24 November it announced that a quarter of the staff on the mantle of this campaign to the hon. Member for who provide advice and support to sub-postmasters North Durham (Mr Jones), and I am very pleased to and sub-postmistresses will be made redundant by the see him in Westminster Hall today. That is partly because middle of February? So the very poor service that I will not be standing in the general election next year, sub-postmasters can draw on at present will be reduced but it is also because, frankly, I no longer trust the Post by the Post Office by 25%. Office and I will not be negotiating with it further. I did not, as some newspaper reports suggested, withdraw Mr Arbuthnot: My understanding is that the figure is the support of 150 MPs, because I have no right to do something like that, but I hope that the hon. Gentleman, so. I withdrew my own personal support and what right who has been a key member of the working group of hon. Members and hon. Members do now is, of course, MPs on this issue, will be able to expand on that point up to them. when he makes his speech, because I do not know the However, there are other avenues that need to be full detail. taken. We need a review by the Government, because The Post Office carried out no proper investigation we own this organisation. That review must be entirely into what had happened to Jo Hamilton. Julian Wilson, independent of the Post Office, which has shown it of the Redditch constituency, was told by Post Office cannot be trusted on the issue. Possibly there should be staff that if there was money over at the end of the day, a special ombudsman. he should put it in an envelope and put that envelope in In my letter to the chief executive of the Post Office, I the safe, and then use that money to pay later shortfalls. asked for three things. I asked for no further destruction It is so obvious that that amounts to false accounting, of documents, and by documentation I mean not only on the instructions of the Post Office itself, that it is the documentation for those people who are within the bewildering. He kept asking for audits but the Post mediation scheme but the documentation for those Office said, “We’ll audit you when we think you need an people who have not managed, for one reason or another, audit.” And yet he gets prosecuted and decides to plead to get into the scheme. They have been mentioned guilty. already. What allowance has been made by the Post Office for I hope the Government can prevent the Post Office the fact that historically its support was so poor? So far from pleading the statute of limitations, because sub- as I can tell, none. What allowance has been made for postmasters’ legal actions—some of them caused by the the contract term that provides that the weakest links in behaviour of the Post Office—should not be barred by the Post Office—the sub-postmasters—have to be found the passage of time. I hope that the Post Office and the guilty unless they prove their innocence? So far as I can Government can agree that hon. and right hon. Members tell, none. This is not the way that our criminal law should be briefed by Second Sight, not on individual should work. What has happened to the money that the cases, but on the way the mediation scheme has gone. Post Office got from people such as Jo Hamilton via the South Warnborough village? Did it get taken into Post I wrote a letter to the Post Office at the beginning of Office profits? This is, essentially, an issue of Post Office last week asking for these things, but I have had no culture—the protection of assets at the expense of response. people. Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): My right hon. Friend has Sir Oliver Heald: If there are problems with the already mentioned that evidence needed to investigate software, or if the system is vulnerable to hacking of the complaints by the applicants should not be destroyed. sort that my right hon. Friend described, surely the Post Might he, in his position as leader of this debate, make Office would have taken steps to improve the software sure that the Minister asks that the Post Office guarantees and/or make sure that it was more difficult to hack its that the material gathered and produced by Second system? Is there any evidence that it took such action, Sight remains in Second Sight’s possession and that and if it did is that not in itself an admission that the control of it cannot be given up and that it cannot be system was vulnerable and that mistakes could have destroyed if or when the Post Office instructs Second been made? Sight to do just that? 533WH Post Office Mediation Scheme17 DECEMBER 2014 Post Office Mediation Scheme 534WH

Mr Arbuthnot: My hon. Friend makes an interesting, small constituency I know of five cases of varying worthwhile point. I hope that Second Sight will indeed degrees of seriousness—but Noel Thomas’s case is the have a role to play. It is meant to be independent: that is most public and he is the only person I shall name in how my hon. Friend the Minister described it in last this debate, although there are a number of others. year’s statement. I hope that its approach to documents The Horizon system has been looked at as there have will be equally independent. I hope that the Minister is been problems with it. Many sub-postmasters and sub- able to assure us of that. postmistresses, some of whom are now retired—their There may be a role for the Select Committee on post offices have closed for whatever reason—indicated Business, Innovation and Skills. I am pleased that its to me in the early stages in 2001-02 that there were Chairman, the hon. Member for West Bromwich West issues of concern at that time in rural areas, when the (Mr Bailey) has been in his place today. There should be system was going offline and being rebooted. I therefore an investigation by the Criminal Cases Review Commission find it hard to accept that the Post Office has concluded off its own bat, and even those who have pleaded guilty that there was nothing wrong with the system. I shall should be able to take advantage of such an investigation. mention a little later the lack of support and the helplines There will be a role for the courts. I think, therefore, because they were important. that there will need to be a fund to help sub-postmasters The right hon. Gentleman mentioned—I heard it on in those actions. It would be good to think that the Post the radio as well—people being told by Post Office staff, Office itself could, of its own accord, modify its own many of them sub-postmasters, to put money aside and behaviour. I wish I did think that, but I do not. to make it up. That beggars belief. There is no evidence of it in many places, because of the trust between the Several hon. Members rose— Post Office as the employer and the sub-postmasters who were running their thing. Nadine Dorries (in the Chair): Order. Front-Bench speeches will begin at 3.40 pm. Quite a few Members Mr David Jones: Does the hon. Gentleman not agree would like to speak, so I will let them do the maths that a lot of sub-postmasters who were subsequently between themselves. If we are running out of time, I will prosecuted for false accounting had in effect been have to impose time limits on those remaining, but for encouraged to engage in false accounting by Post Office the moment I will leave it to Members’ discretion. support staff? In other words, was not the Post Office itself counselling and procuring an act of false accounting? 3.2 pm Albert Owen: Absolutely right. I thought that this Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): It is a pleasure to system and this scheme were going to identify those follow the right hon. Member for North East Hampshire issues and that somebody in the Post Office was going (Mr Arbuthnot). Like other hon. Members, I congratulate to have to answer for their actions, in the way that our him and his office on the way they have dealt with constituents have had to answer by going to prison and Members of Parliament during this whole process—they losing their livelihoods, and various other things. It has have been very measured and courteous. He has brought been very one-sided. together a groundswell of opinion from MPs and put that articulately to the Post Office. In another case, the life of a relatively young woman has been ruined because of the accusations. On the I share the right hon. Gentleman’s disappointment at advice of a barrister, she pleaded guilty to the lesser the way the Post Office has behaved, because I was one charge to avoid a custodial sentence. She feels now that of the hon. Members who initially welcomed a mediation she was let down not just by the Post Office but by the process. A mediation process is one of good will, where legal system. These are very serious issues. Members both sides volunteer to come together to look for a from across the House have indicated to me that they solution. What we have been talking about in this are aware of cases being handled in a similar way. debate is the destruction of many people’s lives—the lives of many citizens who are well thought of in their I thought, having had correspondence with other communities. MPs and so on, that this was an independent process. I am now led to believe that the Post Office was judge and The right hon. Gentleman mentioned Noel Thomas jury and was deciding unilaterally which cases were to from my constituency, who was a councillor, although go forward. I was of the opinion that people who had not of my political persuasion, in that community, and been found guilty, for the reasons we have outlined, did more than his fair share of good for people. He would be allowed to enter the mediation system. I am ended up in prison because of this system and because very disappointed with the way this is turning out, he has, I believe—I am speaking personally here—been because—I shall repeat this a number of times—we are let down by the Post Office. talking about people’s lives being ruined by this process. In the early stages of the legal matters, I allowed that I was under the impression that we were moving forward legal process to go forward, as did other Members. It and making progress. was not until the Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance In a third case, a constituent of mine who entered the was set up that the wider issues were known. I pay scheme was helped by the Post Office—as we all know, tribute to each and every one of those people for it paid for the early advice that that person was given—but coming together and fighting for what they believe to be because their status moved from that of sub-postmaster right. to employee of another sub-postmaster they were thrown My constituent Noel Thomas ended up in prison. off the scheme. That was discovered at a later stage. There were very serious issues, and he lost his home and Taxpayers’ money had been given to a third party to his business. The impact felt by the right hon. Gentleman’s help that person, to give advice and to come to that constituents was felt by many of mine—even in my conclusion: a complete waste of public money. I argued 535WH Post Office Mediation Scheme17 DECEMBER 2014 Post Office Mediation Scheme 536WH

[Albert Owen] with the Horizon system, which demonstrates that significant questions need to be asked of the Post the case on behalf of my constituent and he was reinstated Office, although it is reluctant to answer them. to the scheme and is moving forward. However, because Mr Rudkin’s story starts on Tuesday 19 August 2008. of confidentiality I do not really know where that case In his official capacity as a negotiator on behalf of is in the system. A lot of issues need clarification. sub-postmasters, he was invited to a meeting at the I have sympathy with the Minister, because the Post Fujitsu/Post Office Ltd offices in Bracknell to discuss Office, as we know, is not directly a Government body. problems with the Horizon system. If Mr Rudkin is However, it is a public body that we the taxpayers, and telling the truth, which I have no doubt he is, this we as representatives, should hold to account. I pay sequence of events raises questions about the system, tribute to the right hon. Member for North East Hampshire which the Post Office must answer. and others for doing that. On arrival that morning, my constituent signed the I shall not go over the other cases that I have, because visitors’ book in reception and waited for his chaperone, I am conscious of time, but I have given some examples a Mr Martin Rolfe. Mr Rolfe took him to the second/third and we have heard others in interventions. However, I floor, and they entered a suite where Mr Rudkin recognised feel let down by the Post Office, my constituents feel let Horizon equipment on the benches. There was only one down by the Post Office and I think the country feels let other person in the room—a male of approximately down by the Post Office. 30 to 35 who was reluctant to engage in conversation with Mr Rudkin or Mr Rolfe. I repeat that I have anecdotal evidence—not hard evidence—that this system was problematic. Of course, Mr Rolfe asked Mr Rudkin to follow him through a computer systems—large-scale IT systems across number of pass card-protected security doors to some Government and across public bodies—are problematic, stairs. They went down to the ground floor and then but the reason the Post Office will not admit to these entered the boiler room. Mr Rudkin states that a number glitches is that, as Members have indicated in interventions, of men dressed in casual office wear were standing and as I am sure they will indicate in their speeches, around the doorway. They became very uncomfortable people were encouraged to do things that were, in many about Mr Rudkin’s presence and left. ways, unlawful. That is a disgrace. Having entered the boiler room, Mr Rudkin instantly The crux of the debate is that the Post Office encouraged recognised two Horizon terminals. There were data on people to commit false accounting, and then it penalised both screens, and an operative was sitting in front of them in the hardest way possible—by taking their one of them, on which the pure feed for the Horizon livelihoods and reputations from them and destroying system came into the building. Mr Rudkin asked if their standing in the proud communities we represent. what he could see were real-time data available on the The Post Office is iconic, and the people who serve in it system. Mr Rolfe said, “Yes. I can actually alter a do so with pride, but they have been let down, and it is bureau de change figure to demonstrate that this is time that this Parliament—the British Parliament—stood live”—he was going to alter a figure in a sub-postmaster’s up for them. I am glad we are having this debate, and I account. He then laughed and said, “I’ll have to put it want some results. back. Otherwise, the sub-postmaster’s account will be short tonight.” Mr Rudkin expressed deep concern, because he had been told that no one had remote access Several hon. Members rose— to a sub-postmaster’s account. At that point, he was politely but speedily taken to reception, and he was told Nadine Dorries (in the Chair): Order. Could Members to leave the building. keep their speeches to six minutes without my having to Mysteriously, the next day, Wednesday 20 August impose a formal time limit? Otherwise, we will, 2008, a Post Office Ltd auditor—a gentleman Mr Rudkin unfortunately, run out of time. knew, by the name of Paul Fields—arrived at Mr Rudkin’s sub-post office. He proceeded to tell Mr Rudkin that his 3.10 pm branch had a loss of £44,000. Interestingly, Mr Rudkin maintains that the investigator knew the size of the loss Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): It before he even entered the premises. is a great pleasure to serve under you in a debate on this Mr Rudkin was absolved of all knowledge of the loss huge topic, Ms Dorries, even if it is for as little as six by Post Office Ltd, but he was ordered to pay the money minutes. back at the rate of £1,000 a month from his salary. As I, too, pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member we have heard, the sub-postmaster is completely liable for North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot) for his under the contract for all losses. As Mr Rudkin points leadership on this issue over many years. It has been an out, why would someone steal money from themselves honour and a privilege to serve under him on his when they know that? working group of MPs for the last two years. After Mr Rudkin had paid £13,000 back to Post The issue first came to my attention because of the Office Ltd, the Post Office started proceedings against plight of a constituent, Mr Michael Rudkin. For 15 years, Mr Rudkin’s wife for false accounting. It also applied he was a sub-postmaster. He served as the most senior for a confiscation order on all his property and had his member on the national executive of the National bank account frozen under the Proceeds of Crime Act Federation of SubPostmasters and as the chairman of 2002. Mr Rudkin has since cleared all his debts to Post the federation’s negotiating committee. He was responsible Office Ltd. In the process, he has lost his business, his for negotiations with Post Office Ltd and Royal Mail reputation, his position as a magistrate, some property Group, so he is an experienced sub-postmaster. I would and his good name, and he has been unable to work like to share with Members his experience of the problems since. 537WH Post Office Mediation Scheme17 DECEMBER 2014 Post Office Mediation Scheme 538WH

Second Sight—the team of independent investigators interface with, we patently have a very flawed, degraded appointed by the Post Office to look into the matter— and deteriorating system. That system, which accounts questioned the Post Office about Mr Rudkin’s allegations for about 60 million transactions a year, is central to and his visit. Initially, Post Office Ltd consistently denied this issue. However, its influence—we might say its the visit had ever taken place—until Mr Rudkin produced malevolent influence—on the lives of sub-postmasters an e-mail from Mr Rolfe from the day before the visit, and mistresses is added to by two features. First, there is which invited Mr Rudkin to visit and said that Mr Rolfe their relationship with Post Office Ltd and, secondly, would meet him in reception, at which point the Post there is the attitude of Post Office Ltd senior staff. Office did admit that the meeting had taken place. Sub-postmasters and mistresses are bound in their Second Sight has repeatedly requested e-mail data relationship with the Post Office by a contract that has from before, during and after Mr Rudkin’s visit, as well been described as Dickensian, but even our Victorian as a copy of the visitor’s book, but all those things have forebears would struggle to justify a contract that is been withheld or are, we are told, now missing. That 114 pages long, all in the usual small print, which was raises serious questions about the Post Office. first put together in 1994, and which, essentially, places Second Sight told me that it has looked at the contract on them all responsibility for problems and shortcomings sub-postmasters are asked to sign and that, in its view, a in Post Office Ltd’s own equipment and system. Therefore, person would have to be an economic and legal illiterate the responsibility for any shortfall or shortcoming rests to be willing to sign it, because it is so slanted in favour contractually with the postmaster or postmistress. As of the Post Office. As we know, the Horizon system is the hon. Member for North West Leicestershire (Andrew imposed on sub-postmasters by the Post Office. Effectively, Bridgen) said, that removes any compunction from Post the sub-postmasters become the fall guys—they are Office Ltd to do anything about its flawed system, even ultimately liable for all losses—so there is little incentive though it appears to have had the ability to bolt on a for the Post Office to ensure that the system or the facility to alter figures from an individual post office support for it are robust. remotely after they have been signed off for the day by The way in which Post Office senior management the postmaster or postmistress who is responsible for have dealt with our working group of MPs has been them. The system is flawed, but apparently Post Office extremely high-handed. I share my right hon. Friend’s Ltd has used it to good effect. concerns: if Post Office management speak to Cabinet When such a flawed and ancient system is backed up members and senior Members of Parliament in the way with poor, and often non-existent, training and support, they do, the way they treat their sub-postmasters must we have the recipe for a disaster. However, we must be feudal— remember that, in the short term, that is a disaster not for the Post Office, but for those postmasters and Nadine Dorries (in the Chair): Order. Could you wind postmistresses who get caught out by the glitches and up, please, Mr Bridgen? failings in the system that were illustrated earlier.

Andrew Bridgen: I will, Ms Dorries. The second issue is the attitude of Post Office Ltd’s management. The right hon. Member for North East There are many questions to be answered, and I hope Hampshire and the hon. Member for North West that as a result of parliamentary pressure and debates Leicestershire were present when we met the five senior such as this, we will get the Post Office to move to a managers of Post Office Ltd—the chair of the board, position where genuine negotiations can take place with the chief executive, the chief technical officer and two aggrieved parties on a level playing field. We are some others—who said, “We cannot conceive of there being way from that yet, and I honestly think we will need a failings in our Horizon system.” I asked all five of them full clear-out of Post Office management before we get about that. a change of attitude in this important public institution. First, that makes us wonder which planet they live on. Secondly, we know that if the organisation operates 3.18 pm from the premise that, uniquely, it has a computer Mike Wood (Batley and Spen) (Lab): I am pleased to system with which there are no problems and can be no be called in this important debate. I, too, thank the right problems, that explains its behaviour further down the hon. Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot), line. Its investigation department should be renamed, who has tried valiantly over the past two to three years because it has never done an investigation since it was to get the Post Office to do the honourable thing by set up. When problems are found, eventually it goes to sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses who have been the individual postmasters and postmistresses and says, slighted—all, it would appear, to no avail. None the “There is a problem here. Patently, it is not our system—it’s less, we should place on record our thanks to him for his faultless—so it must be you. So, now, under caution”— valiant efforts. because the Post Office has the ability to prosecute— “without you having legal representation, we would like Central to this issue and to the operation of all you to sign a statement that you have taken part in false 11,500 sub-post offices is the Horizon system. We must accounting. Then we will think about not prosecuting.” remember that it is ancient: it was second hand when the Post Office took it on between 1996 and 2000, and it People in such circumstances, in the knowledge that was, in any case, designed for other purposes. We are there was a problem, are often encouraged to do that by now 18 or 20 years down the road, and, in IT terms, the the advice and support team. Many are told, “It’ll sort system is a dinosaur. If we add to that the problems that itself out—don’t worry about it. Put it in an envelope are found in all large-scale IT systems when things are and sort it out later.” Therefore, if they follow that bolted on or updated, or when they are expected to advice, they find themselves agreeing, “Yes, of course interface with systems they were never designed to that is false accounting—I will sign the statement.” 539WH Post Office Mediation Scheme17 DECEMBER 2014 Post Office Mediation Scheme 540WH

Nadine Dorries (in the Chair): Order. That is more her response? We have already heard in the debate than six minutes now, so can you speed up? about the job losses threatened and it is clear that the current support systems are inadequate. Mike Wood: Okay. We need to look to the future, and The main concern that comes through from those I support what the hon. Member for North West directly affected is that there does not seem to be a fair Leicestershire said about the removal of the very poor and open process to deal with a postmaster or postmistress senior management in Post Office Ltd, but we must who it is believed might bear some kind of responsibility have justice for the hundreds of postmasters and for a shortage in the accounts. The Communication postmistresses who have had their lives ruined by this Workers Union is regularly involved in such cases, even flawed system. when they do not amount to the serious problems identified in earlier contributions to the debate. 3.24 pm The CWU postmasters branch informed me that it has seen the leaked report issued by the forensic investigator, Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): It is a Second Sight. Indeed, I understand that that report has pleasure to see you in the Chair today, Ms Dorries. I been seen by many journalists and Members. One of congratulate the right hon. Member for North East the concerns is the lack of public scrutiny and the fact Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot) on all his work on this that these issues are not in the public domain. It seems issue and on securing what I understand is his first that the contingent liabilities and the amounts of Adjournment debate. I refer to my entry in the Register money involved over many years are significant. That is of Members’ Financial Interests and inform the House highlighted in the report and is not officially in the that I am the chair of the Communication Workers public domain. Indeed, it does not appear in any way in Union group of MPs. I have had a wide range of the annual reports and accounts that the Post Office has discussions with the CWU and in particular with the to publish. postmasters branch, which has had a number of its There needs to be a much higher level of transparency members affected by the issues raised today. because we are dealing with public money. The people As has already been made clear in the debate so far, who I have spoken to who have experience of the system this issue has been ongoing for many years. I want to accept much of what is in the Second Sight report. reiterate a point made by my hon. Friend the Member Their view is that there is not one single fault with the for Batley and Spen (Mike Wood): what has come system, but dozens and dozens of things that make up across clearly to me in discussions with sub-postmasters the problem when one steps back and considers the and mistresses is denial from the Post Office that a system as a whole. The major cultural problem we seem problem exists. The experience of those directly affected to have is that the initial response from the Post Office, is that, if a problem occurs in relation to the finances, despite everything that we have heard today and all the the initial response from the Post Office is to blame the representations made over many years, is that the individual postmaster or mistress rather than to conduct a serious is responsible if there is an issue. I hope the Minister inquiry to see whether there is a fault in the system or to will look seriously at that cultural problem. It is clearly find out what has gone wrong. That is devastating for significant. No one is fully clear on exactly why there the individuals involved, who, as has already been shown, are all these problems in the system, but all the evidence often face years of anguish as a result. is that this is an extremely significant issue. It is resulting The Communication Workers Union is supporting a in low morale among those working in the system, and I number of members who are waiting for their cases to hope she will respond fully to the matter. be heard as part of the mediation service. Indeed, one of its members has been suspended without pay for 3.31 pm more than a year as he waits for his case to be heard. For more than eight months, another has been facing Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): First, I increasing losses hanging over him despite ongoing congratulate the right hon. Member for North East involvement with Post Office technical staff who have Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot) on securing the debate. come to see what the cause of the losses is and to try to The Post Office spokesman on the “Today” programme find out why there are losses and whether there are said that some postmistresses and postmasters have gains. lifestyle issues, but may I explain what it has meant for my constituent Tom Brown, who lives in Stanley in The CWU gets involved with postmasters and North Durham? He has lost his home and an investment postmistresses who are seeking help with the computer property he owned. He has been declared bankrupt and system on a regular basis. They are not necessarily he now lives with his son. His reputation has been being accused of anything, but they are having problems dragged through the mud and he has lost in excess of with the system. As workers, they find numerous problems £250,000. He has been a sub-postmaster for 30 years. with it, as has been highlighted in the debate. He has been held up at gunpoint on five different The general point that comes through is that the occasions. In 2008, he informed the Post Office that support systems provided by the Post Office are inadequate. there was a problem with the system. I know many Wrong advice and assistance is regularly given by the other postmistresses and postmasters did that. He was help desks that are there to try to deal with such told, “No problem. It will be sorted out.” At the next situations as they arise. Indeed, I have been informed audit, he was accused of stealing £85,000. He was that the technical help desk, which is crucial to identifying arrested by the police and his home and his car were solutions when problems arise, is based in the Philippines. searched, even though he had explained to the Post Therefore, as well as all the other issues when attempting Office about the problems that had arisen. The police to sort out technical problems, a significant problem is interviewed him. His reputation was dragged through language difficulties. Will the Minister deal with that in the mud. 541WH Post Office Mediation Scheme17 DECEMBER 2014 Post Office Mediation Scheme 542WH

As my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Albert in his group for their hard work. I am dismayed that he Owen) said, these people are known in their local and many of the group have lost faith. My sub-postmasters, communities, so they are not arrested quietly and without who are outside that scheme, were pinning their hopes any publicity. The police dropped the case. There was on a successful outcome that could point the way forward no evidence to answer. The pernicious side of it was that for them. They now feel exceptionally let down as well. the Post Office took him to court under its powers, Sub-postmasters have been hung out to dry. They are accusing him of two charges of false accounting. It either being accused of mass fraud—of being rogues—or took until July 2013 for that to get to court. When it of mass stupidity—of being fools. I am not naive enough did, the Post Office offered no evidence and the case to believe that there are not some rogues out there. was thrown out. There might be some fools out there, too. There are Can the Minister say what the decision-making process enough in this place. Even families have them, but the was? Why was the Post Office pursuing prosecutions idea that there is mass criminality, mass fraud, mass when the police had looked at some of these cases and stupidity, mass ineptitude or mass deception going on, found that there was no case to answer? The Post Office worthy of some sort of criminal fraternity such as put these people through the further agony of being SMERSH or SPECTRE in James Bond or some society threatened with court action, even though no action of clowns who cannot even add up—before Horizon, was taken when the cases reached court, because it had they certainly could add up; there were no problems no evidence. Mr Brown is now in the mediation service before—stretches the bounds of the imagination. and he has a date in the new year. His solicitors advised In response to some of the points that have been him, quite rightly in my opinion, to continue his legal raised, all but three of my sub-postmasters in Ogmore action against the Post Office. Like the right hon. Member are deemed to be rural. I have three cases in a very small for North East Hampshire, I think the mediation service constituency. All three are different in their nature, but is a bit of a joke, they all consistently say the same things. They have all The arrogant way in which the Post Office is dealing had problems with the interface between Horizon and with this issue is astounding. Just before the debate existing schemes. They have all had problems with started, the Minister’s Parliamentary Private Secretary downtime on Horizon during the period in which it was passed a letter around from the chair of the working introduced, which messed up their calculations. The group on the mediation scheme. He said: lack of support and training given when that happened “I am limited in the information which I can give because the was appalling. They all say that the subsequent lack of Scheme requires the cases to be treated confidentially.” training and support when incidents arose was appalling. What an arrogant way to address a Minister! Who does They have all had to dip into their own pockets, as the Post Office answer to? That is a fundamental point. sub-postmasters have to, to make good on this. That seems utterly bizarre. What business practice insists that This is a national scandal. The idea that more than they have to do that? All my sub-postmasters are outside 150 individual sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses, any scheme. We were hoping that the scheme would give who have worked tirelessly in their local communities, resolution, at least to those who were within the mediation for decades in some cases, have suddenly all worked out scheme, and point the way forward. I refer the Minister that they can defraud the system is complete and utter to a debate on 9 July 2013, when she made her statement. nonsense. We have seen the scandal in the banking I put that exact point to her then. I said that my people system of the way in which LIBOR and other things are not in the scheme or any future scheme. I had two have been rigged. Those bankers have basically been cases at the time and I now have three. I ask the slapped on the wrist and asked to pay a fine, but these Minister again: where do they go? individuals have not only had their reputations sullied, but in some cases they have been dragged through the I will concentrate on just one of the three cases. My courts and put in prison. Others, such as my constituent, constituent was asked in 2008 to repay more than Mr Tom Brown, have had their lives completely ruined. £5,000 to Post Office Ltd as a result of discrepancies of the like we have heard about today. He claims that it I am sorry that I have to say this to the Minister, but it was the fault of the Horizon computer system, but also is now time for action. I have been a Minister, and I the fault of a lack of training, support and follow-up know that Ministers get a lot of flannel from civil when difficulties arose, which I suspect is exactly what servants saying what can and cannot be done, but I will the Second Sight report, when it eventually comes out give her a word of advice: if she is determined enough in March or April, will say is happening. That is a to want to sort this out, she can do it. What we need pertinent point: it cannot just be the computer hardware. from this debate is a clear commitment from her to get The lack of support and training, the downtime and the the Post Office not only to admit the mistakes it has software interruptions are all pertinent, but they do not made, but to sort this scandal out. People’s lives have seem to have been taken into account. been ruined—decent, honest and hard-working people. That is just not fair. If it happened in any other area of My constituent had spotted the error some time life, it would be a national scandal. It is a national before. His daughter says that he had somehow tried to scandal in my opinion. I am looking to the Minister to adjust the matter by repaying more than £29,000 voluntarily ensure that something gets done. If her civil servants to the Post Office. He was then investigated and suspended come back and say she cannot do X, Y and Z, she from his role. The Post Office may seek full repayment, should just keep challenging them. which would amount to more than £70,000, and criminal charges have not been ruled out. His family describes him as a broken man. That is not good enough. What 3.36 pm help will the Minister now give to those who have been Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): In the short let down by the mediation scheme? What will she do time available, I first thank the right hon. Member for with the potentially hundreds of people who did not North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot) and those involved came forward initially and now also want to seek justice? 543WH Post Office Mediation Scheme17 DECEMBER 2014 Post Office Mediation Scheme 544WH

3.40 pm function within the Post Office to investigate problems. It also mentioned problems with the trading period and Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): It is a great the process for transactional corrections and that there pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries. was no “suspense account”option, which made it difficult I pay tribute to the right hon. Member for North East for transactional corrections to be dealt with in a neutral Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot) for securing this debate. I manner. cannot believe that this is his first Adjournment debate after 28 years of distinguished service in the House. It is I am concerned by the language used in this interim probably better late than never given the content of his report. Conclusions have been made, but we continue to speech. I wish him well when he goes on to other things hear about the significant problems experienced by after May. sub-postmasters up and down the country. We must also reflect on the fact that the Post Office was encouraging I am disturbed by what we have heard this afternoon. postmasters to break the law on accounting. Asking I have been involved in the matter since the Minister someone to allocate accounting to a different period in made her statement to the House last year, but we have order to make up losses is creative accountancy. heard troubling stories about people having their lives turned completely upside down through no fault of More than 144 Members have supported the campaign. their own. I was particularly concerned by the story of The right hon. Member for North East Hampshire has my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones), written to the Post Office to say that he has no confidence who will be a fantastic new leading Member for the that the Post Office board is committed to finding a fair Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance, about his constituent, solution to this particular problem. The Post Office Tom Brown. He gave 30 years’ service to the Post Office, board must reflect on that, but the Minister has a role to but he has now lost his home and lives with his son and play here. I agree with the hon. Member for North has been declared bankrupt after losing more than Durham that she must get a hold of the situation and £250,000, which has been described by the Post Office find a conclusion to it. The more it goes on, the more we as a lifestyle choice. I hope that Post Office representatives, will hear of sub-postmasters ending up in prison or who will be watching this debate, will reflect on the declaring guilt for something that they have not done in stories that Members have described today and do order to avoid a custodial sentence. That is not how something about this. justice works in this country and it is not how justice should be seen to be working. At the statement last year, I made the point that we I want to pose several questions to the Minister, and I welcomed the fact that the Post Office had recognised will sit down early to allow her time to respond to the that there were problems with the Horizon system. At significant questions that have been asked during the debate. that point, it seemed that the Post Office would do First, what is her response to the letter to the Post Office something about it. Since then, however, nothing has from the right hon. Member for North East Hampshire been done. Like everyone else, I have in front of me the about the cases that were recommended for mediation letter from Sir Anthony Hooper, the chair of the working by Second Sight? Can she confirm that that is happening? group, the reverse of which details how the 150 cases If so, what is the solution? have been progressing over the past few months. The information seems incomplete, and it would be useful to Secondly, what discussions has the Minister had with hear about the conclusions in the seven cases that have the Post Office about cases that have been refused been mediated. Was it found that the Horizon system mediation and where the sub-postmaster involved has was incorrect? Was it found that the sub-postmaster previously pleaded guilty to allegations of impropriety? lacked training or support? The conclusions and When people have been given custodial sentences or information need to be reflected back, perhaps privately, criminal records, those cases must be looked at seriously. to the Minister and the working group. Thirdly, will the Minister take urgent action to resolve I was struck by the contributions of the hon. Member not only the outstanding cases, which we can see in the for North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen) and letter from the chair of the working group, but the cases my hon. Friend the Member for Batley and Spen (Mike described by hon. Members that have arisen since the Wood), who made the point that the Post Office’s closing date of the mediation scheme? contracts mean that sub-postmasters are completely Fourthly, will the Minister address the JFSA’s loss of responsible for any losses incurred. There is no carrot confidence in the Post Office system, as highlighted in and stick approach in stealing from one’s own business. the letter from the right hon. Member for North East Instead of robbing Peter to pay Paul, sub-postmasters Hampshire? would be robbing Peter to pay Peter because their Fifthly, what discussions has the Minister had with contracts mean that they are completely responsible for the Post Office and the prosecution services regarding the losses incurred. the prosecution of sub-postmasters? Will she make a The Second Sight report came up with some preliminary statement to the House regarding that? conclusions that are worth reflecting on in the context Finally, do the Government have any further concerns of today’s debate. It found no evidence of system-wide regarding not only the Post Office’s handling of the problems, which causes me a great deal of concern matter, but the Horizon system? because we continually hear about significant issues, We must reflect on the horrendous worst-case scenarios which may point to deeper problems in the system if the that we have heard from hon. Members. I plead with the professionals cannot find major problems. It found two Minister really to get a hold of the matter, to answer incidents where defects or bugs in the Horizon software Members’concerns, to do justice for the many hard-working gave rise to losses of some £9,000 in 76 branches. It sub-postmasters up and down the country who feel that mentioned individual postmaster experiences when they can no longer have confidence that things are being reporting problems and the lack of support and of a dealt with correctly and to ensure that such issues do user forum. It described a lack of an outreach investigations not occur again. 545WH Post Office Mediation Scheme17 DECEMBER 2014 Post Office Mediation Scheme 546WH

3.48 pm There would be no point in entering a mediation if one of the parties was adamant that it could not reach The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, any possible positive outcome. Most of the cases Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson): I congratulate my recommended for mediation, however, are going to right hon. Friend the Member for North East mediation. Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot) on securing this debate on the review and mediation scheme relating to the Post Office and Horizon. He set out his concerns clearly and Mike Wood: Is the Minister happy that the mediation eloquently and cares passionately about the subject. He process, which started on one basis, is now being interpreted has worked tirelessly over a long period of time on the on a completely different one by the Post Office? As a matter, as have many other hon. Members present result, the vast majority of cases listed as going through today. I appreciate hon. Members taking forward their the process will be excluded and never get to mediation. constituents’ concerns. Today’s debate obviously follows Is the Minister happy about that? on from the statement in the House of July 2013 and the important foundations laid and commitments made Jo Swinson: I do not accept the premise of the at that point. question. The scheme was set up and it was agreed that any case could apply to the scheme, even those cases in I have listened carefully to the concerns expressed by which the individual had pleaded guilty to a charge. The hon. Members today and I recognise the real and genuinely working group, which is made up of representatives of distressing situations described and their concern for the Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance through Second their constituents. I wanted to respond as thoroughly Sight, the Post Office, and its chair Sir Anthony Hooper, and fully as possible to the debate, so I was keen to get will consider the report from Second Sight about whether views on how the scheme was going from the working a case should go to mediation. As a result of the group. I contacted its chair, Sir Anthony Hooper, and process, the cases then go to mediation, but it was never received a letter back from him, copies of which I anticipated that every single case would do so. There is circulated to hon. Members present. I had placed it in the point at which the working group considers it. the Library of the House yesterday, but, appreciating that not everyone would have noticed that that had happened, I thought it would be helpful to bring copies Andrew Bridgen rose— along today. Mr Arbuthnot rose— Sir Anthony Hooper is, of course, a Court of Appeal judge. He was appointed chair of the working group at the suggestion of the Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance. Jo Swinson: I will give way to my hon. Friend the His appointment was welcomed by many hon. Members, Member for North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen) including my right hon. Friend the Member for North first, then to my right hon. Friend. East Hampshire, who I understand still has confidence in Sir Anthony as chair of the working group. Andrew Bridgen: I do not know what the Post Office Sir Anthony Hooper has set out the confidentiality has been saying to the Minister, but it has been saying a requirements clearly and, as such, was not able to have a different story to the MPs on the working group. We discussion. He said that he could give only limited have heard examples of people losing everything in information—that was not Post Office Ltd, as the hon. their life, but is she aware that one of the criteria for Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) suggested, but refusing mediation is the Post Office stating that the the Court of Appeal judge. Sir Anthony has provided claim by a sub-postmaster for compensation is too details of the number of cases and the progress made. high? In other words, if sub-postmasters have suffered a So far, the scheme has received 150 applications, with huge loss, the Post Office is using that as a criterion to 10 cases resolved before the scheme started, four applications exclude them from mediation—because their claim is rejected outright and a couple of cases resolved after too large, because they have lost too much. investigation. The rest of the cases are working their way through the scheme and are at different points on Jo Swinson: At present, we are talking about only two the timeline. So far, 24 cases have been recommended cases in which that has happened—the Post Office has for mediation by the working group, of which only two refused mediation in only two cases. Perhaps there is have not gone to mediation because the Post Office has some degree of confusion, but Sir Anthony Hooper, the not been happy to mediate— independent chair of the working group, provided that information. If hon. Members wish to challenge it, I Mike Wood: Will the Minister give way? will happily go back to Sir Anthony about the information provided. I have to work, however, on the basis that that Jo Swinson: I will give way after the next sentence or Court of Appeal judge is providing me with accurate two. I understand the concerns expressed by hon. Members, information. I hope hon. Members appreciate that. but two out of 24 is nothing like the figure of 90% that I will now give way to my right hon. Friend the has been put forward. A basic principle of mediation is Member for North East Hampshire. that both parties agree to it voluntarily, so that it can be entered into in the proper, constructive spirit. Mr Arbuthnot: To be clear, I have not lost faith in Sir Anthony Hooper as the chair of the working group. I Andrew Bridgen: Will the Minister give way? have never said, however, that 90% of the cases have been rejected. I have said that the Post Office has Jo Swinson: I will give way to the hon. Member for recently argued that 90% of the cases should be rejected, Batley and Spen (Mike Wood) first. I will tally up the and that that is where the breach of faith and the lack of interventions. straightforward dealing lies. 547WH Post Office Mediation Scheme17 DECEMBER 2014 Post Office Mediation Scheme 548WH

Jo Swinson: This is slightly difficult territory, because The hon. Member for North Durham said “do the working group discussions are confidential. I do not something”, and in such a situation what I would go to those discussions or know what is said in them. I normally propose doing is to get a team of forensic cannot find out what is said in them. Indeed, every accountants to go through every scenario and to have party involved in the discussions is bound by confidentiality. the report looked at by someone independent, such as a So I do not know whether the information mentioned former Court of Appeal judge. We have a system in by my right hon. Friend is in fact accurate. That said, I place to look at cases therefore, but if particular cases point to the information that we do have from Sir Anthony can be mediated, that is an ideal solution. If during the Hooper, which is that even if what my right hon. Friend course of the mediation or the investigations, any says is true and the Post Office has argued for some of information comes to light that suggests that any of the the cases not to be mediated, none the less it has gone convictions that have taken place are unsafe, there is a into mediation on them. In a sense, the point is slightly legal duty for that information to be disclosed to the academic, although I understand the concern on the individuals convicted and to their legal representation. I part of hon. Members. I also take on board and take fail to see how action can be taken without properly seriously the comments made by more than one hon. looking in detail at every single one of the cases through Member about the attitude of senior staff from Post exactly the kind of scheme that we have set up. Office Ltd to groups of MPs. Albert Owen: I understand the difficulty of getting Mr David Jones: Looking beyond the issue of mediation, involved in the mediation, but will the Minister tell it is clear from what we have heard in the debate that a senior managers of the Post Office that they need to large number of people have had their life ruined because look at some of the specific accusations made against they adopted accounting practices on the basis of advice their staff of giving certain information to people who given to them by the Post Office. In other words, as I have ended up in court and in jail? said in an intervention, the Post Office itself was counselling on procuring false accounting. Has my hon. Friend the Jo Swinson: Absolutely. That is a serious accusation, Minister considered referring that matter to the prosecuting and many serious issues have been raised in the debate authorities? and in correspondence that Post Office Ltd needs to look at and to respond to, perhaps to reassure itself that such things did not occur, or to look into whether they Jo Swinson: My right hon. Friend is right to recognise were the case and, if so, to take appropriate action. We that the accusation is a serious one—if true, it would be do not for a second take lightly the issues raised today, incredibly serious. It is difficult to know whether that is but I caution against the expectation of some swift and the case, which is why full investigation is needed. The easy magic solution. We have to look at the details and hon. Member for North Durham made a clear challenge, the facts, and that has to be done forensically. That is and a fair one, about ensuring that we get some action why Second Sight, the team of forensic accountants, and resolution on the issue. The point that I push back has been employed and why we have someone of the on is that many of the cases are incredibly complex, calibre of Sir Anthony Hooper to oversee the process. understandably so, because they are dealing with systems and many transactions— Mike Wood: Will the Minister give way? Mr Kevan Jones: You’re the Minister, do something! Jo Swinson: I will give way, but time is short.

Jo Swinson: In order to do something, what is required Mike Wood: The Minister rightly sets great store by is independent investigation that is done thoroughly the involvement of Second Sight, but— and forensically— Nadine Dorries (in the Chair): Order. If the Minister wishes to wind up, there are only a few seconds to go. Mike Wood: Will the Minister give way? Jo Swinson: I will take away the points made by hon. Jo Swinson: I will finish the point, if hon. Members Members in the debate. I am sure that the issue is one will allow me. that we can return to in future. 549WH 17 DECEMBER 2014 International Money Transfer 550WH Charges International Money Transfer Charges Africa. The problem affects not only those sending money to Africa, but large parts of Asia and Latin America as well. 4pm A further challenge is the severe lack of transparency about the components of charges. For example, figures Dame Tessa Jowell (Dulwich and West Norwood) taken from MoneyGram on Saturday show that sending (Lab): It is a great pleasure to serve under your card-to-cash transfers of £100 to six countries in different chairmanship, Ms Dorries. parts of sub-Saharan Africa incurred a uniform fee of This Christmas, millions of people will work extra 12%, plus further currency exchange charges. The four hours in difficult and low-paid jobs so that they can countries have different market conditions and underlying send money to their relatives living abroad. Their factors, yet the basic fee of 12%—more than double the remittances, particularly to sub-Saharan Africa but to G8 standard of 5%—is the same for each of them. many other parts of the world as well, now account for People do not understand why. Along with financial more money than donor aid. However, their money regulators, the UK Government should require companies transfers will be hit by fees and charges that can be as to be more transparent about such charges, in the high as 15%, and in some cases even higher. Five years interest of consumers. I would like to commend ago, the G8 committed to reducing this “transfer tax” TransferWise for its campaign, which I support, calling to 5%, but the deadline for international action has now on the UK Government to put a stop to hidden fees and passed and the target has not been achieved. People to stop banks and brokers overcharging consumers in who seek to send relatively small amounts are being hit foreign currency exchange. disproportionately by high fees; I am calling for concerted The G20’s conclusions show that Governments are action to change that. aware of the scale of the problem. At the G8 L’Aquila Take, for example, Dorothy Mukasa, who arrived in summit in 2009, world leaders agreed to bring the cost the UK from Uganda 34 years ago and, like so many of remittances down to 5% within five years. The G20 thousands of migrants, works for the NHS. Over the formally adopted that objective in 2011, but the deadline years, her family in Uganda have needed her help. For was missed two weeks ago. At last month’s G20 summit example, she has sent money home to pay the school in Brisbane, which was attended by the Prime Minister, fees for her orphaned niece, and she currently pays for a world leaders reaffirmed the 5% commitment, but they nurse to attend to her elderly parents twice a week. appeared to weaken their ambition by failing to agree a Dorothy explained her anger at the extortionate charges deadline by which they would act. Perhaps the Minister that she has to pay, because sending relatively small can assure us that that is not the case for the UK amounts can incur higher charges. Her case was recently Government. I am very concerned by that omission and highlighted by The Observer newspaper. I would like reassurance from the Minister on the I applied for this debate because of the circumstances Government’s determination to tackle the problem. of people like Dorothy who are being hit by the double There are many issues surrounding remittances, and I effect of poor foreign currency exchange rates and high fully accept their complexity. One such issue is the fees, of which a key driver in certain parts of the world availability of accounts for money transfer companies. is the lack of competition in the market. When chairing Earlier this year, owing to concern over lack of control the Africa Progress panel earlier this year, Kofi Annan of funds, Barclays announced that it would be closing highlighted the control that money transfer companies 250 UK accounts held by money transfer companies have over the market. He said that the two largest such that deliver remittances to families in developing countries. companies, Western Union and MoneyGram, both This year, my hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal “operate exclusivity agreements with their agents and commercial Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali) led the successful banks, which raises the cost of market entry.” “Save Remittance Giving” campaign, which called on He went on to say that money transfer operators Barclays to reverse its decision and on the Government to throw a lifeline to families in developing countries— “account for US$900 million taken from African migrants and particularly Somalia, which faces significant challenges their families through excessive charging.” in this respect—by co-ordinating action between the The situation was also illustrated in this year’s Government and financial regulators in order to secure groundbreaking report from the Overseas Development a long-term solution. Like other Members, I am sure, I Institute. The fees being charged are disproportionately want to put on the record my thanks to my hon. Friend high and far above the 5% level set by the G8 and the for her continuing work on this issue. G20. The ODI showed that when the fee and, critically, A key issue that I have already mentioned is the lack the foreign currency exchange rate were combined the of effective competition, which works against consumers. margin levied by MoneyGram would see someone sending Between them, Western Union and MoneyGram control £120 to Malawi incurring a 22.4% cost. Sending the two thirds of the remittance market in sub-Saharan same amount to Senegal and Ghana would have costs Africa. That market must be made more open to a of 19.9% and 11.4% respectively. It is important to say, wider ranger of companies, including smaller, secure however, that MoneyGram disputes those figures. companies, to ensure that there is a competitive market. In the case of Western Union, the other big money The issue has been highlighted by the Association of transfer company, the ODI’s research shows similarly UK Payment Institutions and its executive chairman, high charges. The cost of sending £120 to Gambia was Dominic Thorncroft. The AUKPI represents 120 payment 14.2%, and to send the same amount to Uganda incurred institutions in the UK, and it notes that, since the charges of 13.4%. The ODI’s research showed that collective decision of the UK banks in 2013 to stop between them Western Union and MoneyGram control trading with money remittance firms, more than two thirds of the remittances market in sub-Saharan 150 Financial Conduct Authority-regulated UK money 551WH International Money Transfer 17 DECEMBER 2014 International Money Transfer 552WH Charges Charges [Dame Tessa Jowell] remittances support nearly 3.5 million people and account for approximately half of Somalia’s gross national income. remittance firms have lost their bank accounts and Since I came to this job earlier in the year, I have since then struggled to be able to offer money remittance therefore personally been making sure that the Government services to their customers. are doing everything we can to ensure that remittances Some firms are taking action to try and offer alternatives continue to flow through accessible and secure channels in the market. An example is Xendpay.com, which is a from the UK to all regions of the world. service set up by social entrepreneur Rajesh Agrawal in The House will be aware that transparency of fees response to the high charges levied by the big and and charges for financial services products and competition dominant money transfer companies. However, right between providers are key priorities for the Government. now consumers have less choice, and overall fees and Increased transparency promotes greater competition, charges have inevitably increased. Policy makers, including it provides better outcomes for customers, and it helps the UK Government, are just not doing enough to strengthen people’s trust in financial institutions—it is encourage greater competition, which would begin to fair to say that that has been somewhat shaken in tackle very high charges. By analogy, we would not previous years. Therefore, it is my firm belief that tolerate a situation in which two companies controlled greater competition as a whole in the financial services two thirds of our energy or banking markets, and we industry will lead to greater innovation, and ultimately must not tolerate that in the international remittance to better outcomes for customers. market either. We have put in place a huge range of programmes of Remittances are big business, and the lack of reforms to support greater competition in banking. transparency, effective regulation and competition means That includes putting competition at the heart of the that very substantial profits can be made by just a few regulatory system, with statutory competition objectives big players. In 2013, Western Union handled £52 billion for both the Financial Conduct Authority and the of transfers between customers. It returned over £420 million Prudential Regulation Authority. Very importantly, we to shareholders through dividends and share repurchases. have created the new Payment Systems Regulator, which I believe there needs to be a balance between the commercial will come into its full powers on 1 April 2015. interests and success of these important companies and the decency of the business, taking into account the The PSR has three statutory objectives: first, to promote population of consumers on whom they rely. That is effective competition in the markets for payment systems why I have called on MoneyGram and Western Union and for services provided by those systems; secondly, to particularly to halve their fees in the run-up to Christmas—a promote the development of innovation in payment time of giving—as a gesture of good will, and as a small systems, in particular the infrastructure used to operate stepping stone towards a more permanent solution. payment systems, in the interest of customers; and I hope that the Minister will be able to give a commitment thirdly, to ensure that payment systems are operated that her Government, should the opportunity arise, will and developed in a way that considers and promotes the act between now and the general election to reaffirm the interests of customers. commitment of the G20 last month and begin to set out Coming back to the specific issue that the right hon. specific proposals on how the UK Government might Lady raised on the cost of remittances, I am aware that offer leadership in this area to bring down transfer my ministerial colleagues at the Department for charges. I also hope that her Government, until the International Development have been considering the election, will agree to speed up the necessary action to cost of money remittances, and they have already taken force money transfer companies, banks and brokers to action to reduce fees. That includes action to improve be more transparent in their charges and, in particular, the transparency of fees by supporting the pioneering their foreign currency conversion rates. Hundreds of price comparison website sendmoneyhome.org to increase thousands of very hard-working people, doing some of transparency around remittance transfer costs and to the toughest jobs in our country, just want to support stimulate competition. The average cost of sending their relatives in some of the poorest countries in the £100 has fallen by 5.6% across 11 countries and by 28% world, and I hope very much today that the House will to India. The web platform has now become fully show its support for them too. commercialised and has been replicated in France, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Australia and New Zealand. 4.12 pm DFID has been taking action to improve inter-market The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Andrea co-operation. Between 2009 and 2015, DFID will support Leadsom): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship the FinMark Trust in its drive to reduce the average cost today, Ms Dorries. I thank the right hon. Member for of remittance transfers from South Africa to other Dulwich and West Norwood (Dame Tessa Jowell) for Southern Africa Development Community countries raising such an important topic. I say to her, first, that it by 30% by 2014. has taken up a lot of my time since I have been in this Given the concerns rightly raised by the right hon. role. It is a very complicated issue and it is very important Lady today, I plan to write to my ministerial colleagues to me that we get it right. at DFID to ask that we work together to think about I also congratulate the right hon. Lady on raising the what more can be done and particularly to seek an issue with the Prime Minister at Prime Minister’s questions update on the points she made about the Brisbane G20 earlier today. As he set out, the Government are acutely discussions. However, as I have said, this is an extremely aware of the importance of remittances from UK residents complicated issue. She is fully aware that in recent years that are sent to their family and friends in developing we have seen growing concern among banks globally countries. Annual remittances from the UK amount to about money laundering and terrorism financing, and, more than £15 billion. In the specific case of Somalia, of course, the very real possibility of potentially crippling 553WH International Money Transfer 17 DECEMBER 2014 554WH Charges enforcement action against banks that fail properly to Greyhound Welfare protect against these risks. The money service business sector has been particularly affected, as she knows. 4.42 pm The right hon. Lady mentioned the actions taken by the hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara Nadine Dorries (in the Chair): Because the previous Ali), and my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing Central debate ended early, the final debate of the day may and Acton (Angie Bray) and many other colleagues continue for up to 41 minutes, so we have until 5.23 pm. have also brought this issue to the attention of the House on a number of occasions. Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): It is always a I know that the right hon. Lady is also aware of the pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries. action group on cross-border remittances, which was Coming from a family of bookmakers, and having set up at the start of 2014 to seek to address this worked in the industry, I feel that I have been around worrying trend towards debanking the money service horses and dogs all my life. Indeed, after setting up the business sector. The action group is composed of betting shop with the race cards and newspapers, and Government representatives, banks, money transfer after writing the “off slips” that signify the start of the operators and industry associations. It has initiated a races, my day would officially start with a piercing bell number of important activities to revise guidance on signifying that the 11 am greyhound race from Romford compliance with the money laundering regulations; to or Walthamstow was about to begin. Each Christmas, improve the understanding of money laundering and our work outing would be a night of dog racing just terrorism financing risks; importantly, to sustain the down the M4 at Swindon’s race track. flow of remittances from the UK through formal channels; I make it clear that, when it is well regulated, greyhound and particularly, to improve trust in the remittance racing can be a fun pastime. Even though it was a bit sector. before my time, I can still remember the names of Our banks and regulators have a very real responsibility Ballyregan Bob and Scurlogue Champ from when the to ensure that they are not supporting activities that races were shown on that staple of Wednesday nights, could pose a threat to British citizens and undermine “Sportsnight” on the BBC. Over the years I have known the progress that developing countries are making. The a few greyhound owners and trainers. In the main, they right approach to tackling these threats should are dog lovers who treat their animals well. effectively deter, detect and deal with those who seek to Greyhound racing supports in excess of 7,000 jobs in use the financial system, including money remitters and the UK, and it is sustained by more than 4,000 owners. banks, to launder money or fund terrorism. At the same Additionally, the industry generates more than £55 million time, it should protect and support legitimate businesses in taxation. However, there are two major problems and, in particular, critical lifelines for countries such as with greyhound racing that are having a serious impact Somalia. on the dogs themselves: prize money and welfare. The In conclusion, as the Prime Minister set out earlier betting industry is inextricably linked with the sport of today, this is a very complicated area, but I would like greyhound racing. As a betting product, greyhound to reassure the right hon. Lady that the Government are racing has never been more popular. Some £2.5 billion committed to doing what we can to keep remittances is staked on the outcome of greyhound races each year. flowing and the costs down. William Hill owns and operates two tracks, one at Sunderland and another at Newcastle. I welcome the 4.19 pm fact that William Hill voluntarily pays more than £2 million Sitting suspended for Divisions in the House. to the British greyhound racing fund, which is an example that many betting companies making profits from the industry should follow. However, that is simply not the case with many online operators, including betting exchanges, which do not contribute a penny to the industry. Whereas horse racing is subject to the Horserace Betting Levy Board, which collects a statutory levy from the horse racing business of bookmakers to be distributed for the improvement of horse racing and the breeds of horses, and for the advancement of veterinary science and education, greyhound racing could be termed a poor cousin. Greyhound racing has only a voluntary levy that is not enshrined in law and that sees a percentage of off-course betting turnover—currently 0.6%—returned to the sport. The levy amounts to approximately £12 million a year and is used to finance welfare and integrity work, the promotion of the sport and commercial activities. Greyhound racing provides a core betting sport. Unlike horse racing, which is thriving, attendance at many greyhound tracks is dwindling. The independent Greyhound Board of Great Britain regulates the sport and maintains its integrity and well-being. I commend the board on its decision to ensure that all greyhounds are looked after, and microchipping the animals means that owners are 555WH Greyhound Welfare17 DECEMBER 2014 Greyhound Welfare 556WH

[Chris Evans] In a wide-ranging and comprehensive report, “The state of greyhound racing in Great Britain—a mandate always traceable. I have argued in the past that all dogs, for change”, the League Against Cruel Sports outlined regardless of breed, whether they are a working dog or how a new regulatory system might work. Such a system a family pet, should be microchipped. In the summer could improve the lives of greyhounds and make the my own dog went walkabout and would have been lost sport fulfil its obligations to racing dogs. However, any for good had I not microchipped him as a pup. To see new system must be based on evidence, transparency the industry lead the way can only be a good thing. and the public interest. DEFRA’s five-year review of However, low prize winnings put pressure on breeders, the statutory instrument must be open to the public. I trainers and race tracks, who have to put on more races invite the Minster to make that commitment. Once the to make greyhound racing pay. More races mean more full facts are in the open, action must be taken to ensure pups and more retired greyhounds that are sadly abandoned the welfare of greyhounds. after their racing days are over. I again make it clear that it is no good tarring everyone with the same brush. Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): The hon. Gentleman is In the main, trainers, dog owners and race track owners making a powerful speech. Does he agree that more are people who love dogs and love greyhound racing, statistics are needed on the fate of greyhounds? Does he but a small minority are causing problems. welcome the moves by charities to start doing that on a In 2004, a greyhound had to be put down when it was basis that the industry itself does not seem to want? found in an extremely distressed state by a member of the public on a mountainside between Fochriw and Chris Evans: Yes, I welcome those moves. It is worrying Bargoed in the Rhymney valley—I do not represent that so many greyhounds have gone missing. We must those two villages, but I represent the lower part of look at how their lives begin and end. When the greyhound Rhymney valley, which is in the Islwyn constituency. was found on the side of a mountain in my part of the The dog had been shot with a nail gun and its ears, world, we could only conclude that his ears were cut of which were probably tattooed, had been cut off to stop so he could not be identified. It was a terrible incident. identification. I have read that that is common practice Once all the facts are in the open, there must be six in Ireland, although I appreciate that the Minister does changes. I would be grateful to hear the Minister’s not have jurisdiction there. thoughts on each of them. First, we must create an In 2010, the Department for Environment, Food and independent welfare regulatory body to oversee all Rural Affairs adopted a system of self-regulation. When greyhound racing—both licensed and independent—and the system was instigated we were promised an end to it must include representatives from animal welfare the abuses of the past such as the one reported by The organisations. Secondly, there must be full transparency. Sunday Times in 2006. The report found that, over Those involved in greyhound racing must be required 15 years, more than 10,000 healthy but unwanted by law to disclose welfare information at the national greyhounds had been shot with a bolt gun and buried in and track level to the regulatory body each quarter. a garden. That unofficial abattoir and graveyard was Thirdly, the use of substances such as testosterone and servicing licensed greyhound trainers. The practice was anabolic steroids on greyhounds must be prohibited. part and parcel of the greyhound racing industry. The Fourthly, we must introduce greyhound passports so chairman of the Greyhound Board of Great Britain the welfare regulator is able to track every dog from admitted that it was “very plausible” for there to be birth, which will end the enigma of the thousands of similar operations that had not yet been uncovered. greyhounds that go missing each year. Fifthly, there Progress has been made, and I commend the efforts must be a statutory requirement on tracks, trainers and of the greyhound racing industry. However, according owners to re-home all racing greyhounds. Sixthly, we to the Society of Greyhound Veterinarians, the dimensions must introduce breeding controls, set up a licensing of the track and the all-weather conditions in which regime for British breeders and create joint initiatives greyhounds are forced to race lead to high injury rates. with DEFRA and the devolved nations to tackle over- Greyhounds suffer bone fractures, skin trauma, lacerations breeding. and a host of other problems, many requiring euthanasia. Ministers could make those simple changes this side Most damning of all, each and every year, thousands of of the election if they wished. The Minister must tell us healthy greyhounds that could be re-homed and lead why the Government are allowing this sorry state of happy and long lives are needlessly and horribly put to affairs to continue. The Government must step up to sleep. the plate, and I urge the Minister to do so today. The all-party group on animal welfare estimates that Although I believe that the betting industry has been a minimum of 4,728 racing greyhounds are unaccounted unfairly criticised over the years, that does not stop me, for each year—the majority are destroyed. The APGAW’s as somebody who worked in it, being a critical friend. report states that the figure is We should introduce a measure for greyhound racing “likely to be a significant underestimation of the true scale of the similar to the horseracing levy. Those who make money problem of unwanted dogs being destroyed.” out of racing should give something back, in much the We are now four years into self-regulation, and the same way as William Hill does. The levy should be racing industry’s problems are still prevalent, and it is statutory, rather than voluntary, otherwise the betting not as if Ministers do not know. The APGAW, Lord companies will simply not play ball. The choice is Donoughue—who was commissioned by the industry—the simple: either we have an independent welfare regulation Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, system backed up by legislation and funded by a greyhound Greyhound Rescue Wales and the League Against Cruel levy, or racing greyhounds will continue to face the Sports have all shown time and again that some greyhounds horrible conditions that they do now. I look forward to lead a life of abuse, neglect and early death. hearing the Minister’s thoughts. 557WH Greyhound Welfare17 DECEMBER 2014 Greyhound Welfare 558WH

4.52 pm every greyhound is now microchipped, so there is a complete trail of ownership and the details of the Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): I congratulate my hon. individual greyhound are stored. Dogs are no longer Friend the Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) on securing allowed to run unless they are microchipped. That this timely debate. As ever, it is a pleasure to serve under shining example of protecting welfare can be applied to your chairmanship, Ms Dorries. all types of animal, but greyhound racing has been a I am a greyhound owner. I love greyhounds, and I leading light. Every track is now required to have a vet take great exception to people who know little about present during racing time. this wonderful sport classifying me as a “terrorist in sport” because I want to raise those wonderful animals. Nadine Dorries (in the Chair): Order. Mr Lavery, you I co-chair the all-party group on greyhounds, and I have had more than six minutes. Another Member have had lots of e-mails from people across Europe wishes to speak and the Minister must respond. Could telling me that I am a bad individual for supporting this you wind up? great sport. Greyhound racing is widely watched and loved by Ian Lavery: Thank you very much, Ms Dorries. I millions of people—not just here in the UK, but across thank the Minister and my hon. Friend the Member for the globe. I really take exception to anybody who suggests Islwyn for allowing me to speak. that I do not look after my dogs. I have had hundreds of We must work with the trainers, the owners, the greyhounds: fast ones, slow ones, ones that have never Greyhound Board of Great Britain, the Greyhound made the track and ones that have reached five years of Trainers Association, the Dogs Trust and the Retired age. I have looked after every one of the animals I have Greyhound Trust. Everybody must pull together to had or been associated with from the day they came tackle the welfare issue and put greyhound racing on a into my ownership to they day they sadly passed on. firm footing for the future. The vast majority of owners do the responsible thing, but of course I accept that some people out there do 4.58 pm not. Greyhound racing is a great sport, but it is tarnished by a secret few and a murky past. My hon. Friend the Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): It is a pleasure to Member for Islwyn mentioned the event in Seaham a serve under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries. I thank the few years ago, when up to 10,000 dogs—most, but not hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) for giving us the all, were greyhounds—were found to have been killed opportunity to discuss this important issue. I also thank by an individual. It brought tears to not only my eyes, the hon. Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery), with but the eyes of anybody who has anything to do with whom I co-chair the all-party group on greyhounds. the sport. It took the sport back 30 or 40 years—it was I come from Romford, which is a greyhound racing an outrage. town. There is a greyhound stadium in my constituency, We have moved on since then. We have all heard the where I have always lived. Therefore, for me it is very great tales of people stopping dogs running with pork important that we get this issue right. We support pies and by putting elastic bands around their feet, and greyhound racing, but as the hon. Members for Islwyn of people painting greyhounds to look like different and for Wansbeck said, it is important that we uphold dogs. If only a few of those tales were true, it would be the welfare of the animals. I will focus on welfare in my half-amusing. People who try to besmirch this brilliant brief remarks today. sport continue to perpetuate those myths because they The greyhound is, of course, a remarkable athlete. It are great tales to tell. is one of the oldest canine breeds; it is mentioned in the In the past, there were many instances of greyhounds, Bible, in Chaucer and in Shakespeare. Greyhounds have lurchers and other dogs of that type of breed being often been owned by members of the royal family. found on hillsides, like the dog that my hon. Friend In the UK, the greyhound industry is thriving, and it spoke about. It is an outrage and brings tears to everybody’s is an exciting industry. It not only brings in £55 million eyes. Every time a single greyhound is left like that, it in taxation per annum but supports more than 7,000 takes the sport back 10 years. We need to move forward. jobs, which are linked to the 30 or so greyhound racing Of course, there is a massive problem with welfare. tracks around the country.Greyhound racing is a traditional The statistics show that. But we should not be looking British pastime and many people around the UK spend to ban the sport, because it is a fantastic sport that is a lot of their life involved in it. It is very important that enjoyed by many people across the globe, from owners we do not take it away from them. to spectators. We have 30 tracks or more in the UK. We Let me state, as chairman of the all-party group on have got to address the welfare problem, because every greyhounds, that whatever we feel about greyhound time there is a positive story about greyhound racing, racing, the important thing is that we never forget about such as the Towcester track, which opened two weeks the welfare of the 8,000 dogs that enter and leave the ago—its official opening was on Saturday night, and it sport every year. The sport itself must be supported, was a great event—it is tarnished by the welfare issue. but only on the basis that the dogs are properly looked We can take massive positive steps, but they are always after during their racing days and when they finish tarnished by welfare. We should not turn our backs on racing. the welfare issue because it is extremely important. I am pleased that much progress has made by the We need more transparency in the sport, as my hon. industry since the introduction of the Welfare of Racing Friend suggested. Today, if somebody buys a greyhound, Greyhounds Regulations 2010. The Greyhound Board they get a passport with it. Every time the greyhound of Great Britain has maintained the standards that runs, its passport is marked. Since the Welfare of Racing afford it accreditation by the United Kingdom Accreditation Greyhounds Regulations 2010 and the Donoghue review, Service. All racing greyhounds are microchipped and, 559WH Greyhound Welfare17 DECEMBER 2014 Greyhound Welfare 560WH

[Andrew Rosindell] record of championing animal welfare issues; he has clearly followed this issue particularly closely. under the GBGB rules of racing, owners are responsible The treatment of racing greyhounds, both during for their greyhounds when the dogs’ racing days come and after their racing lives, is also a matter of concern to an end. In addition, the GBGB conducts a vigorous for the public. This debate is very timely, because I will anti-doping regime, taking more than 9,000 samples a be able to say a few words about what the Government year. Of these, well over 99% are negative. will be doing on greyhound racing during the coming Charities such as the Retired Greyhound Trust, of months, and in particular about our plans to review the which I am a trustee and a proud vice-president, serve current regulations early next year. to further the welfare of greyhounds when their racing days are over. The RGT is the largest single-breed Ian Swales: Earlier this year, I took my constituent re-homing charity in Britain and last year it found Trudy Baker, who is a prominent member of the Greyt homes for 3,742 greyhounds. Unfortunately, the RGT Exploitations charity, to see Lord De Mauley, who is a and other charities are simply unable to help all the Minister. On 1 April, Lord De Mauley wrote to me dogs that leave racing, and I welcome any assistance the promising the setting up of a review group to assess the sport is able to give these charities in that respect. The 2010 regulations. Has that group been set up? If so, hon. Member for Islwyn emphasised the importance of when will it report? that. However, the recent report into greyhound racing in George Eustice: I was going to come on to say that the UK by the League Against Cruel Sports has raised the original legislation envisaged a review in 2015. Work many concerns. While it is important for the sport to be towards that review has already begun with officials, held to account, it is my opinion that this report does and the intention—as I was going to say later on—is not necessarily represent all the facts as they truly are, that we shall shortly have a discussion with stakeholders and in some cases it uses data that are simply not and those involved in greyhound racing, before going to correct. For instance, the report claims: a wider public consultation. I myself have had the “Most racing greyhounds spend 95% of their time confined in opportunity to talk to Lord De Mauley, who leads on a kennel”, this particular issue in the Department for Environment, when the truth is that they spend 95% of their time at Food and Rural Affairs. I know that he has visited a kennel, because quite simply that is where they reside greyhound racetracks and has already met many and where they have access to paddocks, runs and stakeholders to discuss these particular issues. walks on a daily basis. I do not believe that twisting I shall first set out the current legislative framework the facts in that manner helps the debate and we should be covering the welfare of greyhounds in England. This careful not to take information at face value, rather matter is, of course, a devolved one. However, it is a than checking whether it is based on fact or just hearsay. reality that the majority of greyhound tracks in Britain— The GBGB is working with the Greyhound Forum to some 30 out of 34 tracks—are in England. There are a improve transparency on the information about injuries further three tracks in Scotland and one in Wales. The and trackside euthanasia rates, which means that this majority of those 30 tracks in England—24 in total—are information is now available to many animal welfare currently affiliated to the Greyhound Board of Great organisations. However, I know that many of these Britain. Following the 2007 report on greyhound racing organisations would like to see this transparency increased that was led by Lord Donoughue, the GBGB has been and for the GBGB to improve outside understanding of the main governing body of the sport since January the injuries that greyhounds sustain and of the remedies 2009. However, there are a further six tracks that are that are used. currently not affiliated to the GBGB: these are the It is also regarded as important that the GBGB so-called independent tracks, which tend to be smaller. shares information about the number of greyhounds They race independently of the GBGB. that retire each year, and about exactly where these dogs go. Perhaps that is one area where the industry could Ian Lavery: Just to clarify that point, does the Minister work more closely with the Greyhound Forum. mean that those independent tracks are not licensed by the GBGB, rather than “not affiliated to” it? The greyhound industry and the GBGB are insistent on their commitment to the welfare of the animals with which they work. To retain the public’s support for George Eustice: That is right. My understanding is greyhound racing, and the support of all those who that if tracks are affiliated to the GBGB, they are care about the well-being of the animals, I strongly urge licensed by it. The independent tracks, which tend to be the industry and the GBGB to continue along the path the smaller ones, are directly licensed by the relevant of greater transparency. local authority. Nevertheless, it is important to note that welfare standards for all racing greyhounds in England are 5.3 pm covered by the Animal Welfare Act 2006 and the Welfare TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforEnvironment, of Racing Greyhounds Regulations 2010. The 2006 Act Food and Rural Affairs (George Eustice): I congratulate is wide ranging, but it allows action to be taken where the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) on raising there is evidence of cruelty to an animal or of a failure this issue. I was interested to hear about his background to provide for an animal’s welfare needs. This includes, in and experience of greyhounds, as well as the direct for instance, when greyhounds are kept away from the experience of greyhounds of the hon. Member for Wansbeck track, such as at a trainer’s kennels, which is often (Ian Lavery). I know that my hon. Friend the Member flagged as a point of concern by some animal welfare for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) has a long-standing groups. 561WH Greyhound Welfare17 DECEMBER 2014 Greyhound Welfare 562WH

Further to the general provisions under the 2006 Act, UKAS’s accreditation process determines the technical which apply everywhere, the welfare standards at all competence and integrity of organisations acting as greyhound racing tracks in England are specifically assessment bodies. Before UKAS accredits any organisation, covered by the Welfare of Racing Greyhounds Regulations the organisation will be subject to intensive audit to 2010. Introduced in April 2010, these regulations require ensure compliance with the international standard for that all tracks must do the following: first, they must certification bodies, including witnessing the organisation’s have a vet present at all races, race trials and sales trials, own assessment activities. Accredited organisations are with all greyhounds inspected by the vet before they are subject to annual surveillance visits and full reassessment allowed to run; secondly, the tracks must provide suitable after four years. kennelling; thirdly, all greyhounds be microchipped and Organisations found not to be acting in accordance earmarked before they can race or trial; and finally, with their accreditation can have that suspended or even each track must keep records of all dogs that are raced withdrawn. Should the GBGB ever lose its accreditation, or trialled at that track, and of any dogs injured during the 2010 regulations would automatically remove its a race, trial or sales trial. powers to regulate the standards set out in those regulations, These standards are regulated either by the track’s and all GBGB tracks in England would then require a local authority—that is the case for independent tracks, licence from their local authority. as I have pointed out—or, as in the majority of cases, by If anyone has any concerns about how the GBGB is the GBGB, which regulates 24 tracks. However, the applying welfare standards as defined within the rules GBGB is only allowed to regulate these standards on of the 2010 regulations, they can report them to UKAS. the basis that it is accredited by the United Kingdom UKAS has powers to investigate any such concerns Accreditation Service for the audit of greyhound tracks reported to it. The GBGB was accredited by UKAS in against the standards required by the 2010 regulations. March 2010 and DEFRA officials have been told that At this point, it might help the House if I briefly since then UKAS has received no complaints about the discussed what we mean by the term “self-regulation”. efficacy with which the GBGB has approached its duties. The hon. Member for Islwyn said that this is still very I want to say a little about the five-year review, which much self-regulated. However, I do not think it is quite was touched on in an intervention. When the regulations as simple as that, because the position is firmer than were introduced in 2010, Ministers in the last Government simply having a voluntary code. committed to reviewing them after they had been in Prior to the introduction of the regulations in 2010, force for five years. As the House is aware, all new the industry was self-regulated in the way that most regulations now come with statutory five-year review people would understand the term. There were no specific clauses anyway, but it was always the intention—even statutory requirements for greyhound racing tracks, the under the previous Government, and even before the industry set its own welfare rules of racing and there statutory requirement to review regulations every five was no independent external scrutiny of how the National years was in place—to review these particular regulations Greyhound Racing Club, which was the main industry after five years. regulator at the time, enforced its own rules. However, The review is due in April 2015, but work on it has following the 2007 Donoughue report and the subsequent already begun. We aim to go out to key stakeholders introduction of the Welfare of Racing Greyhounds early in the new year, to collect the evidence that we Regulations 2010, the minimum conditions required for need to assess the effectiveness of the regulations. Once all greyhound tracks in England are now set down by we have independently collected and considered that Parliament. Apart from local authorities, if any organisation evidence, DEFRA will go out to a wider public consultation, wishes to regulate the standards themselves, it must which will most likely commence after the election, have UKAS accreditation to do so. The GBGB is given that we will quickly be at the end of March and currently the only body certified in this way by UKAS into a purdah period. and ensures that there is now external independent oversight of the enforcement work that the GBGB Given the strength of views on these issues, it is carries out. important that we do not have a quick consultation that gets lost in the run-up to the general election. This is an While the current situation is often described as important issue, and we do not need to rush it. Provided self-regulation, clearly 2010 marked a break with what we have started the engagement with stakeholders before had gone before. What we have is a statutory form of the general election, we should allow plenty of time for regulation that is enforced by an industry body that is people to respond to a public consultation after it. then itself audited by an independent body established That review will consider how effective the regulations within Government. have been. It can look at the self-regulatory elements of It might be worth while my saying a little more about the regulations and how the current approach adopted UKAS accreditation. UKAS is recognised by the by the GBGB is working and at the requirement to Government as the sole UK organisation for the collect injury statistics and how those can be used. It accreditation of certification, testing and inspection can also look at the traceability of greyhounds after bodies to internationally agreed standards. UKAS they have left the sport, because one of the biggest accreditation provides an assurance of the competence, concerns that is often raised about the current situation—the impartiality and integrity of assessment bodies. As hon. Member for Islwyn highlighted this—is that nobody UKAS accredits the GBGB as a certification body, I is sure where between 2,000 and 4,000 greyhounds a think that the Government can have confidence that the year, by some estimates, end up. We know that many GBGB is effectively monitoring and verifying welfare excellent charities help to re-home greyhounds that standards as defined within the rules of racing and have left racing, but there is concern about some of the within the 2010 regulations. others. 563WH Greyhound Welfare17 DECEMBER 2014 Greyhound Welfare 564WH

[George Eustice] the GBGB has done some good work in this area. It has taken it quite seriously, spending more than £640,000 a The hon. Member for Islwyn mentioned a number of year on drug sampling and research to ensure that it is issues that he would like to be addressed in that review, able to detect substances, as my hon. Friend said. and I think that all of them could indeed be covered. Finally, the hon. Member for Islwyn mentioned over- For instance, he highlighted the importance of independent breeding. This is an issue with many breeds—the greyhound welfare oversight and asked whether other welfare charities is not the only example—and the Kennel Club has could be involved, and I see no reason why that could started to become alert to this problem and to do work not be explored through the review. It is exactly the kind on it, including the dangers and welfare impacts. I am of thing that we should do. sure that when we have that review, organisations like The hon. Gentleman also mentioned the importance the Kennel Club and other animal welfare organisations, of transparency on statistics. We know that the regulations which have themselves done good work in this connection, now require the GBGB to require all its tracks to record may want to contribute to it. instances of injuries. Many say that those injuries should In conclusion, we have had a good, well-informed be submitted to the GBGB and perhaps published, so debate with hon. Members who have a lot of experience that there is transparency in that regard. Again, these of this issue. I am sure that many of the points that have are all valid points that can be addressed through the been raised will be pertinent to the review that we are review. about to commence, first with stakeholders and then My hon. Friend the Member for Romford highlighted with the wider public during the next six months. I the issue of doping and the use of drugs. This is a good again congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this point. We should recognise that the use of doping and debate and hon. Members on their important contributions. drugs in this context would already be a breach of the Question put and agreed to. Gambling Act 2005, which, as my hon. Friend will know, given his background in this, sets out many 5.18 pm provisions in this regard. We should also recognise that Sitting adjourned. 91WS Written Statements17 DECEMBER 2014 Written Statements 92WS

council, that that council is failing to comply with its Written Statements best value duty, and proposed to statutorily intervene to secure the council’s compliance with that duty. Wednesday 17 December 2014 I gave the council until 18 November to make any BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS representations it wished on the inspection report and my proposal for intervention, and I sought and received Science and Innovation from the council certain undertakings not to take further specified actions on grant making, appointment of statutory officers, and transfer of property to third parties, until I The Minister for Universities, Science and Cities (Greg had reached decisions about the use of my intervention Clark): I have today laid before Parliament a Command powers. Paper “Our plan for growth: science and innovation”. The document sets out the Government’s strategy to I have now carefully considered all the representations build on the great strengths of British science and that the council has made. I have also considered afresh enterprise, the Government’s priorities for investment the PwC inspection report and the report the Election and support to 2020-21, and the key principles that will Commission published on 1 July 2014 into the elections underpin science policy during the next 10 years and in Tower Hamlets, and I have had appropriate regard to beyond. other representations that I have received about my proposed intervention. I remain satisfied that the council is failing to comply with its best value duty. It is CABINET OFFICE disappointing that there is a culture of denial in the mayoral administration about its systematic failures. Ministerial and Civil Service Pension As I said in my previous statement, 4 November, Official Report, column 666: The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster “Localism requires local accountability and local democracy. General (Mr Francis Maude): Today a new pension Municipal corruption undermines the local checks and balances scheme for Ministers is being laid and is available in the that are vital in a democracy and essential in mayoral systems Libraries of both Houses. The scheme will apply to all with their concentration of power. We cannot risk such corruption.” Ministers after the general election in 2015. But this is not just about the money. The abuse of The scheme is consistent with the principles and taxpayers’ money and the culture of cronyism reflects a design parameters of other new public service pension partisan community politics that seeks to trade favours schemes which will apply to Members from April 2015— and spread division on the rates. Such behaviour is to aside from older Members with transitional protection. the detriment of integration and community cohesion The key features of the scheme are: in Tower Hamlets and in our capital city. This remains An accrual rate of 1.775% (about 1/56) my view. Normal pension age linked to state pension age I have concluded that it is both necessary and expedient A Member contribution rate of 11.1 % for me to exercise my intervention powers in the Local Revaluation of accrued benefits in line with prices Government Act 1999 as I have proposed, and accordingly, There are also amendment schemes being laid for the I have today given the council the necessary directions current ministerial and civil service pension schemes to under section 15(5) and 15(6) of the 1999 Act to implement cover protection of survivor benefits. the proposed interventions. The amendments do not make any provision in relation to an accrued right which puts—or might put—a person These are centred on putting in place until 31 March in a worse position than the person would have been in 2017 a team of commissioners to oversee or exercise apart from the provision. certain of the council’s functions. It is open to me to review this in the light of the progress made by the The details of the new scheme have been laid in the council to secure compliance with its best value duty. I Libraries of both Houses, along with a copy of the have nominated Sir Ken Knight to be the lead response to the consultations from the chairman of the commissioner. Max Caller CBE has also been nominated Parliamentary Contributory Pension Fund Trustees. as a commissioner, and I will announce a further It is also available online at: http://www.parliament.uk/ commissioner in due course. writtenstatements In summary, the specific intervention measures are as follows. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT 1.To require the council: Local Government Improvement: to draw up and agree with the commissioners within three Technical Consultation months from the date of the direction a strategy and action plan for securing the council’s compliance with its best value duty—to include as appropriate complying with the specific The Secretary of State for Communities and Local requirements set out below—and to submit this to the Government (Mr Eric Pickles): I would like to update Secretary of State;. hon. Members on a series of steps we are taking to to prepare under the direction of the commissioners and improve the quality of local government services and submit to the Secretary of State at six monthly intervals ensure value for taxpayers’ money. thereafter until 31 March 2017 a report on progress against London Borough of Tower Hamlets the strategy and action plan; On 4 November, I informed the House that I was to undertake as a matter of urgency a recruitment exercise, satisfied, having considered the report of the inspection under the direction of the commissioners, with the aim of by PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP (PwC) of Tower Hamlets making as soon as practicable, permanent appointments of 93WS Written Statements17 DECEMBER 2014 Written Statements 94WS

suitable persons to the positions of the three statutory Transparency is the foundation of local accountability officers—head of paid service, chief finance officer, and and the key that gives people the tools and information monitoring officer; they need to play a bigger role in society. until 31 March 2017 to obtain the prior written agreement of In October, we issued the local government transparency the commissioners to (a) any dismissal or suspension of a code 2014 and have made it a legal requirement for local statutory officer; and (b) any proposed appointment or designation of a replacement; authorities to publish much of the data specified in the code. Today, we have taken another step forward in until March 2017 to obtain the prior written agreement of ensuring that local people have key information to hold the commissioners before entering into any commitment to public bodies to account by publishing a transparency dispose of, or otherwise transfer, to third parties, any real property other than existing single dwellings for the purposes code for smaller authorities. of residential occupation; Under the new local government audit regime smaller within three months from the date of the direction, to authorities will be subject to the transparency requirements prepare a fully costed plan for how the council’s publicity laid out in this code in place of routine external audit. functions can be properly exercised and agree that plan with The code will require the online publication of information the commissioners; and until 31 March 2017 adopt any that provides taxpayers with a clear picture of authorities’ recommendation of the commissioners with respect to that activities, spending and governance, improving the ability plan or to publicity more generally; of communities to hold local public bodies to account. by 1 February 2015 to prepare and implement an action The transparency code for smaller authorities applies plan, in consultation with the commissioners, to achieve to parish councils, internal drainage boards, charter improvements in the council’s processes and practices for trustees and port health authorities with an annual entering into contracts, and until 31 March 2017 to adopt all recommendations of the statutory officers in relation to the turnover not exceeding £25,000. Published initially as processes and practices to be followed in relation to entering recommended practice, we intend, subject to Parliament, into contracts, unless the commissioners’prior written agreement to make the code mandatory by the start of the 2015-16 is obtained not to do so. financial year and will offer support to this local government sector to help authorities comply with these requirements. 2. The commissioners to exercise until 31 March 2017 all functions of the council relating to the making of Backing locally supported joint working grants, including responding to Freedom of Information There are many ways that local authorities can work Act requests in respect of grant payments, with the together to save money and improve services, but there council providing at the request of the commissioners is equally no one-size-fits-all model either. The Dorset its views on proposed grants. fire authority and the Wiltshire and Swindon combined 3. The commissioners to exercise until 31 March 2017 fire authority have formally made representations requesting the council’s functions of appointing persons to and a merger. We have today published a consultation paper removing them from the posts of electoral registration on their proposals. officer and returning officer for local elections—this In contrast to the last Administration, we do not will also apply to their general election duties. believe in top-down restructuring. Nor do we agree with the current proposals of the HM Opposition to force The council will be required to comply with any more mergers. The botched fire control programme is a instructions of the commissioners in relation to the prime example of how such restructuring is expensive exercise of those functions for which the commissioners and distracting. Rather, we will support locally led are responsible, and to provide the commissioners at its partnerships, where there is genuine support from all expense with such services, amenities and administrative members of the local community, and the consultation support as the commissioners may reasonably require, will test this local support. and with access to the council’s premises, documents, and to any employee or member as appears to the Improving support arrangements for local councils commissioners to be necessary. The council will also be It is important to have in place the most effective required to pay the commissioners’ reasonable expenses arrangements to help councils across the country to and such fees as I determine. continue to improve and reform—essential if they are Intervention was not a decision taken lightly, however to deliver sensible savings. I could not allow the overwhelming evidence of the Councils have a right to expect services designed to serious failings within Tower Hamlets to continue support them are the best they can be, provide the unchecked. I do not accept the Mayor’s representations support they need and provide best value for money. that the problems in the council can easily be put right. In 2015-16, we intend to provide grant of £23.4 million Residents need to know that decisions are being to the Local Government Improvement and Development taken properly in an open and accountable way. The (formerly IDeA) to deliver effective support to councils. commissioners I am appointing are experienced and This will be accompanied by robust scrutiny to ensure talented professionals who understand that transparency that every pound spent by it is spent appropriately and and accountability are vital to the functioning of local on providing direct support to councils. We expect of it democracy. the same standards and value for money as we expect of councils delivering front-line services, and we expect Local government transparency them to be transparent with councils about how they The coalition Government have taken many steps have spent the grant and the services they deliver to during this Parliament to place more power into citizens’ support councils. hands to increase democratic accountability and make The coalition Government’s policy is to open up it easier for local people to contribute to the local budgets to competition wherever possible. We intend to decision-making process and help shape public services. explore how the budget given for improvement services 95WS Written Statements17 DECEMBER 2014 Written Statements 96WS can be opened up to competition with contracts in place Details of these arrangements are being sent to local for 2016-17, allowing councils, council groupings, think- authorities today and have been published at: http:// tank, mutuals and other interested parties to bid for www.gov.uk. such funding, and drive further best practice in local government. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE I am placing a copy of the documents associated with these announcements in the Library of the House and on my Department’s website. Coal Authority Triennial Review

The Minister of State, Department of Energy and DEFENCE Climate Change (Matthew Hancock): On 8 October 2013 as Minister for Energy and Climate Change, my Defence Reform: Review of Implementation right hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon) announced the commencement of the triennial The Secretary of State for Defence (Michael Fallon): review of the Coal Authority. I am now pleased to My noble Friend Lord Levene of Portsoken has conducted announce the completion of the review. the third annual review of the implementation of his The Coal Authority was established under the 1994 defence reform recommendations of 2011, and has Coal Industry Act with the broad responsibilities to written to me setting out his findings. protect the public and environment in coal mining areas I welcome Lord Levene’s conclusion that he is impressed and manage the effects of past coal mining. The authority by the fundamental transformation the Ministry of owns the majority of coal in Great Britain, including Defence has undergone in the last four years. I am past coal mines. pleased that he recognises the significant progress we The triennial review of the Coal Authority concludes have made in many areas, not least the much stronger that the functions performed by the authority are still financial management he observed, which is such a key required and that it should be retained as a non- aspect of defence reform. Of course, I fully accept that departmental public body. The review also looked at the there is always more we can do, and I have noted Lord governance arrangements for the authority in line with Levene’s suggestions for further improvement. guidance on good corporate governance set out by the I am grateful to Lord Levene for his commitment to Cabinet Office. The report finds that good corporate the Ministry of Defence over the past four years and I governance arrangements are already in place, and makes am in no doubt that as a result my Department is now a number of recommendations in this respect which we much better placed to achieve our objectives effectively expect will be implemented shortly. and efficiently. We will continue in the spirit of defence The full report of the review of the Coal Authority reform to embed the changes we have put in place, and can be found on the Coal Authority website: www.gov.uk/ to build on them for the future. government/organisations/the-coal-authority and copies I have asked Lord Levene to return next year, as he have been placed in the Libraries of both Houses. has offered to do, and I look forward to demonstrating further progress at that time. HEALTH I am placing a copy of Lord Levene’s letter in the Library of the House, together with the MOD’s summary Mitochondrial Donation of progress against the 53 defence reform recommendations. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health EDUCATION (Jane Ellison): We have today laid regulations to allow mitochondrial donation to prevent the transmission of School Revenue Funding 2015-16 serious mitochondrial disease from mother to child. Mitochondrial disease is passed from mother to child through faults in the mitochondrial DNA. It is estimated The Minister for Schools (Mr David Laws): Today I that one in 6,500 children are born every year in the UK am announcing details of school revenue funding for with a serious mitochondrial DNA disorder. Serious 2015-16 through the dedicated schools grant (DSG). mitochondrial disease can have a profound effect on The distribution of the DSG to local authorities will families, including the premature death of children; and continue to be set out in three spending blocks for each causes painful, debilitating and disabling suffering, long- authority: an early years block, a schools block and a term ill health and low quality of life. There is no cure. high needs block. British scientists are leading the world in the development As I announced in my statement to the House on of mitochondrial donation techniques which can prevent 17 July, the underlying school budget will be kept at flat the transmission of this devastating disease. cash per pupil for 2015-16 with an increase in schools The Government have run a comprehensive and block per pupil funding for the 69 least fairly funded transparent process over the lifetime of this Parliament local authorities. to review the public acceptability of mitochondrial To protect schools from significant budget reductions, donation and the ongoing evidence of safety and efficacy we will continue with a minimum funding guarantee of the new techniques involved. In developing the draft that ensures no school sees more than a 1.5% per pupil regulations, we have taken extensive advice from the reduction in 2015-16 budgets—excluding sixth form scientific and research community and the United funding—compared to 2014-15 and before the pupil Kingdom’s regulator, the Human Fertilisation and premium is added. Embryology Authority (HFEA). Should the regulations 97WS Written Statements17 DECEMBER 2014 Written Statements 98WS be approved by Parliament these mitochondrial donation emergence of e-cigarettes in recent years, coupled with techniques would form part of the HFEA’s regulatory concerns about the increased awareness and use of framework. Any prospective provider would have to these products by children, the Government are committed demonstrate that it could perform the technique both to setting an age of sale requirement. safely and effectively in order to obtain a licence, putting The consultation on the draft regulations will run for mitochondrial donation on the same footing as other six weeks until 28 January 2015. I encourage all those fertility treatments. with an interest to submit their views on the draft The consultative process has included: a public dialogue regulations and the accompanying impact assessment. and consultation about public acceptability run by the A copy of “Ageof Sale for Nicotine-inhaling Products— HFEA in 2012-13; three separate reports about the consultation on proposed regulations to be made under safety and efficacy of the techniques by an expert panel the Children and Families Act 2014” has been placed in convened by the HFEA in 2011, 2013 and 2014; and a the Library of the House and attachments can be consultation by the Department of Health in 2014 viewed online at: http://www.parliament.uk/ about the detail of draft regulations that would allow writtenstatements these techniques. The HFEA published “Mitochondrial Donation: an introductory briefing” on 22 October, which provides a very helpful summary about the expert panel review process and outcome. In addition the Nuffield Council on Bioethics ran a public consultation about the ethics of allowing the new Smoking (Vehicles Carrying Children) techniques in 2012. Most recently, the House of Commons’ Science and Technology committee took evidence and considered the science of the new techniques, subsequently The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health writing to the Government urging them to proceed. (Jane Ellison): The Government have today published a Taking into account this cumulative consideration response to the consultation on regulations to end and consultation, the Government consider that the smoking in private vehicles carrying children and have time is now right to give Parliament the opportunity to laid draft regulations in Parliament. consider and vote on these regulations. The Government want to protect young people from the serious health harms of smoked tobacco and the Nicotine-inhaling Products regulations would make private vehicles carrying children smoke-free. We have made some technical amendments in response to the consultation responses, and, subject The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health to agreement in both Houses, they will come into force (Jane Ellison): The Government have today published from 1 October 2015. “Age of Sale for Nicotine-inhaling Products-consultation The existing smoke-free legislation, as set out in the on proposed regulations to be made under the Children Health Act 2006, will be extended so that it will be an and Families Act 2014” offence to: In February 2014, the Government took regulation- smoke in a private vehicle with someone under age 18 present; making powers in the Children and Families Act 2014 and to enable regulations to be made to prohibit the sale of fail to prevent smoking in a private vehicle with someone under nicotine products to persons under the age of 18. The age 18 present. proposed regulations cover “nicotine-inhaling devices” which are defined as any device which is intended to If approved by Parliament, the regulations will apply enable nicotine- to be inhaled through a mouthpiece to enclosed private vehicles and will not apply to anyone but is not tobacco, cigarette papers or a device intended driving alone. for the consumption of lit tobacco. It encompasses The World Health Organisation found that second-hand electronic cigarettes. The proposed regulations also cover smoke is a real and substantial threat to child health. It refill cartridges and nicotine liquids intended to be used causes a variety of adverse health effects including to refill nicotine inhaling devices. increased susceptibility to lower respiratory tract infections The proposed regulations would: like pneumonia and bronchitis, worsening of asthma, middle ear disease, decreased lung function, and sudden make it an offence to sell nicotine-inhaling products, such as electronic cigarettes, to anyone under the age of 18, with infant death syndrome. certain limited exceptions; Smoke-free legislation is a devolved matter and these extend the existing offence of the proxy purchase of tobacco regulations would apply to England only. However the (at section 91 of the Children and Families Act) to cover regulations will set the amount of the fixed penalty nicotine-inhaling products, so that it would also be an offence notice at £50 for the offence of failing to prevent smoking for an adult to buy an e-cigarette on behalf of a child under in a smoke-free private vehicle, which will apply in 18 years, subject to limited exceptions; and relation to England and Wales. We are liaising with the exempt the sale of any nicotine-inhaling product that is Welsh Government to co-ordinate our approaches. Public licensed as a medicine, where it has been prescribed to a child and is sold under certain conditions, or where the Health England is developing a social marketing campaign medicine is indicated in its licence for therapeutic use by to raise awareness of the new regulations in advance of children. them coming into force. The Government want to protect children and young The Government response to the consultation on people from addiction to any substance, particularly smoking in private vehicles carrying children has been those that might be harmful to health. Given the rapid placed in the Library of the House. 99WS Written Statements17 DECEMBER 2014 Written Statements 100WS

HOME DEPARTMENT policing bodies in England and Wales for 2015-16, for the approval of the House. Copies will also be available Intercept Evidence in the Vote Office. The Department for Communities and Local The Minister for Security and Immigration (James Government (DCLG) will in due course publish proposals Brokenshire): The interception of communications plays for the distribution of funding to English local authorities a vital role in preventing terrorist attacks and tackling for 2015-16. A further £3 million of council tax freeze serious and organised crime. Interception is used in grant funding, previously paid to local policing bodies some form in the majority of MI5’s top priority counter- by DCLG, will be paid by the Home Office in 2015-16. terrorism investigations. It plays a crucial role in the This follows the permanent transfer of £500 million of work of the police and the National Crime Agency to other legacy council tax grants and £3 billion “formula bring serious criminals to justice. funding” from DCLG to the Home Office in previous The prohibition on the disclosure of warranted intercept years, reflecting our ambition to simplify police funding in court is a long-standing one. It has served to protect arrangements over this Parliament. The Welsh Government the most sensitive capabilities of the security and intelligence will shortly set out their proposals for the allocation of agencies. And it has set the context in which the current funding in 2015-16 for local policing bodies in Wales. interception regime has evolved. Since 2010 we have seen some of the biggest changes The Government are committed to securing the to policing in decades. Crime is down by over a fifth. maximum number of convictions in terrorism and serious There is significantly greater local accountability and crime cases. The experience of other countries is that transparency and police leaders have taken the opportunity the use of evidence gathered through interception may to radically reform the way they deliver services to the help to achieve that. For that reason, the Government public. Police officers have been taken out of back-office have sought to find a practical way to allow the use of roles and resources focused on front-line delivery, putting intercept as evidence in criminal proceedings. officers back on the streets where the public expect I am today publishing the findings of the Government’s them to be. Police forces are working more closely than review of intercept as evidence as a Command Paper ever before to reduce costs and duplication, and have (Cm 8989). started to work more closely with other emergency This review considered whether it would be possible services through co-location and collaboration in areas to introduce intercept as evidence in a way that was such as mental health. The police are making their consistent with the right to a fair trial. The costs of contribution to reducing the deficit and Her Majesty’s translation, transcription and retention in order to disclose inspectorate of constabulary has found that the police material to the defence would be substantial, diverting are successfully meeting the challenge of balancing considerable resources away from investigative work. their books while protecting the front line and delivering The review found that the benefits—measured in reductions in crime. additional convictions—would be highly uncertain. On After careful consideration of all Home Office budgets some assumptions, the use of intercept as evidence and the impact of the Chancellor’s 2013 autumn statement, would lead to a small increase in convictions. On others I have decided to maintain the 4.9% real-terms headline it would lead to a significant decrease. reduction to overall central Government funding to the The review concluded that the costs and risks of police announced at spending round 2013. Taking account introducing intercept as evidence are disproportionate of the latest inflationary forecast from HM Treasury to the assessed benefits. This conclusion was unanimously published alongside the Chancellor’s 2014 autumn endorsed by the advisory group of Privy Counsellors statement, this means a total cash reduction of £299 million who have overseen the review from its inception. in the overall police funding envelope compared to Based on the outcome of the cost-benefit analysis, 2014-15. the review concluded that intercept as evidence should I have also decided that the Government’s approach not be introduced at this time. However, the Government to funding arrangements will continue in 2015-16. This will keep this position under review. means that every police force area will face the same This review has benefited from the experience and percentage reduction in core central Government funding. advice of the advisory group of Privy Counsellors, This amounts to a cash reduction in this funding of chaired by the right hon. Sir John Chilcot and comprising 5.1%—in cash terms—compared to 2014-15. my noble Friend the right hon. Lord Howard of Lympne, my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed I have also decided to allocate funding to specific (Sir Alan Beith), and the right hon. Member for St Helens areas where I consider there to be a national policing South and Whiston (Mr Woodward), who replaced the interest. This includes maintaining police spending on right hon. noble and learned Lord, Lord Archer of counter-terrorism, improving police integrity, transparency Sandwell. The Government are indebted to them for and leadership, and enabling the investment required so their hard work, which is now complete. the police can innovate to meet new challenges and access critical modern infrastructure by: Copies of the review will be available in the Vote Office. maintaining funding for counter-terrorism policing of at least £564 million; Police Grant Report England and Wales 2015-16 providing a further £30 million for the Independent Police Complaints Commission; The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims supporting HMIC’s PEEL inspection programme with £9.4 million; (Mike Penning): I have today placed in the Library my offering £4.6 million for the College of Policing’s direct entry proposals for the aggregate amount of grant to local schemes; 101WS Written Statements17 DECEMBER 2014 Written Statements 102WS

allocating £70 million of funding to the police innovation Counter-terrorism fund; and I will continue to allocate specific funding for counter- providing £40 million of funding for major programmes. terrorism policing and have provided ring-fenced funding I am also considering whether a limited amount of for this throughout the 2010 spending review period to police capital grant will be reallocated to support the ensure that critical national counter-terrorism capabilities communications capabilities development and emergency are maintained. We have allocated at least £564 million services mobile communications (ESMCP) programmes. to support counter-terrorism policing in 2015-16. I will confirm my decision in the written ministerial statement that will accompany the final police grant Police and crime commissioners will receive full counter- report in February. terrorism funding allocations in the new year. For security The police in England and Wales are facing many reasons these allocations will not be available in the challenges, including new and emerging threats and a public domain. growing number of historic investigations. This Government PRE-EXISTING FUNDING STREAMS have always been clear that the police will have the Police innovation fund resources they need for their important work, and this will continue to be the case in 2015-16. I will continue to promote innovation, collaboration I have set out below how we propose to allocate the and improved efficiency by allocating £70 million to the police funding settlement between the different funding police innovation fund for 2015-16. In its first two streams and between police force areas for 2015-16. years, this fund has supported a broad spectrum of activity, including projects to enhance collaboration The police grant settlement 2015-16 across the emergency services and with other public Table 1: Police revenue funding 2015-16 services; improve digital working within and between 2015-16 forces; and introduce new means by which the public TOTAL GENERAL FUNDING: £m can make contact with their forces. We have also decided to allocate £5 million to the establishment of a police Comprising…. knowledge fund. Further details will be provided in due Police Core Settlement 4,309* course. of which Home Office Police Main Grant 4,136 of which National and International, Capital City 174 Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) Grant (MOPAC only) This is the second year of funding for the expansion Former DCLG funding 2,851 of the IPCC to investigate all serious and sensitive of which formula funding 2,818 allegations involving the police. In 2014-15 the IPCC of which Ordnance Survey 2 has expanded its infrastructure, including doubling its of which Legacy Council Tax Freeze 31 numbers of investigations staff, and is on course to start Welsh Government 135 almost twice the number of cases compared to last year. In 2015-16 I am providing £30 million from the police TOTAL HOME OFFICE SPECIFIC GRANTS: 822** settlement which will allow the IPCC to focus on delivering Comprising…. significantly more independent investigations as the Welsh Top-up 13 new investigations staff take up post. I will also provide Counter Terrorism Police Grant 564 £4.5 million from the wider Home Office budget to Police Innovation Fund 70 cover capital investment costs. Police Knowledge Fund 5 Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary (HMIC) Independent Police Complaints Commission (for 30 the transfer of integrity functions) We will provide £9.4 million to HMIC to continue its College of Policing (for direct entry schemes) 5 programme of thematic inspections and more wide-ranging City of London National and International Capital 3 PEEL inspections. The PEEL assessments represent a City Grant radical shift in how police forces are held to account by HMIC (for PEEL inspection regime) 9 enabling the public to see for the first time how well Police Special Grant 15 their force is performing when it comes to cutting crime, Major Programmes 40 providing a service that is fair and providing value for Legacy Council Tax Freeze Grants money. They give the public a clear, independent view of the quality of policing in their local area. of which Council Tax 2011-12 freeze grant 59 of which Council Tax 2013-14 freeze grant 7 College of Policing of which Council Tax 2014-15 freeze grant 3 £4.6 million will be given to the College of Policing to POLICE PRIVATE FINANCE INITIATIVES 73 attract, select and train exceptional people who have the *** TOTAL GOVERNMENT FUNDING 8,190 potential to become senior leaders in policing. This will **** % CASH CHANGE IN TOTAL GOVERNMENT FUNDING -3.5% widen the talent pool from which police leaders can be % REAL CHANGE IN TOTAL GOVERNMENT FUNDING -4.9% drawn, open up police culture to new influences and ***Rounded to the nearest £m foster an environment where challenge and innovation ***The police will also separately receive £434.4 million in local council tax support grant. This will be paid by the Home Office. are welcome. ***This is the difference in total central Government funding to the National and international capital city grant police compared to 2014-15. The reduction in core Government funding (i.e. funding that is subject to damping) is 5.1%. This year, we will provide £2.8 million of funding to Provisional allocations of these grants—excluding the City of London police in respect of their responsibilities counter-terrorism police grant—for each force area in for policing the capital. This follows an HMIC review England and Wales for 2015-16 are set out in table 3. of their detailed business case. 103WS Written Statements17 DECEMBER 2014 Written Statements 104WS

NEW FUNDING STREAMS (LCTS) funding previously paid to police and crime Major programmes commissioners in England by DCLG. This will total £503 million in 2015-16. The Common Council of the After consideration, we have decided to provide City of London and the Greater London Authority—on £40 million from the police settlement to support the behalf of the Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime—will continuing development of the emergency services mobile also receive council tax freeze grant relating to the communications programme, Home Office biometrics 2011-12 freeze grant scheme. The Greater London and the national police data programme. These major Authority will also receive an amount for the 2013-14 programmes are critical for the police as they will and 2014-15 schemes. These sums will continue to be ensure future communications and data capability, and paid from outside of the police funding settlement by are designed to deliver significant savings in the future. DCLG. This will also be the case for any future council Police special grant tax freeze grants. We have decided to provide £15 million from the police settlement for the police special grant contingency Police capital fund, which supports police forces facing unplanned or As in previous years, a portion of capital will be unexpected additional pressures which might otherwise reallocated in 2015-16 to fund the National Police Air place them at financial risk. Service. I will consider whether a further reallocation is OTHER FUNDING required to support the communications capabilities Council tax referendum principles development (CCD) and emergency services mobile The Communities Secretary, in consultation with the communications (ESMCP) programmes. Indicative figures, Home Secretary, will in due course give an indication of excluding a reallocation for CCD, are set out in table 2. the council tax referendum principles he is minded to I still intend to allocate the majority of capital funding propose for local authorities in England in 2015-16. directly to local policing bodies. Like last year all local After considering any representations, he will set out policing bodies will receive the same percentage change the final principles in a report to the House and seek in capital grant. I will also continue to maintain a approval for these in parallel with the final local government capital contingency. finance report. Council tax in Wales is the responsibility of Welsh Ministers. Table 2: Division of police capital between funding streams Legacy council tax grants 2015-16 Police Capital £m In 2015-16 we will provide council tax freeze grant to Police Capital Grant 109.5 police and crime commissioners in England relating to Police Special Capital 1 the 2014-15 council tax freeze scheme. We will continue NPAS 10.4 to provide council tax freeze grant relating to the 2011-12 TOTAL 120.9 and 2013-14 schemes and local council tax support

Table 3: Provisional revenue allocations for England and Wales 2015-16 Legacy Council HO core (including Welsh Ex-DCLG Tax Grants (total from Local Policing Body Rule 1) Welsh Top-up Government Formula Funding HO) £m £m

Avon and Somerset 105.6 - - 56.8 14.7 Bedfordshire 40.6 - - 23.5 4.6 Cambridgeshire 48.8 - - 24.5 6.0 Cheshire 61.8 - - 45.0 8.3 City of London 18.5 - - 33.8 0.1 Cleveland 46.4 - - 38.8 7.7 Cumbria 28.9 - - 31.0 4.8 Derbyshire 62.5 - - 37.9 8.7 Devon and Cornwall 103.3 - - 63.5 15.5 Dorset 41.5 - - 17.4 7.3 Durham 43.0 - - 37.2 6.1 Dyfed-Powys 31.4 6.1 12.8 0.0 - Essex 103.4 - - 56.3 13.1 Gloucestershire 34.6 - - 19.6 5.6 Greater London Authority 1,040.1 - - 754.1 119.7 Greater Manchester 227.9 - 182.4 24.5 Gwent 43.2 - 29.7 0.0 - Hampshire 120.7 - - 63.5 12.9 Hertfordshire 71.8 - - 36.6 9.5 Humberside 67.6 - - 46.8 10.0 Kent 106.9 - - 67.0 13.3 Lancashire 101.1 - - 79.6 12.8 Leicestershire 65.7 - - 39.9 8.9 105WS Written Statements17 DECEMBER 2014 Written Statements 106WS

Table 3: Provisional revenue allocations for England and Wales 2015-16 Legacy Council HO core (including Welsh Ex-DCLG Tax Grants (total from Local Policing Body Rule 1) Welsh Top-up Government Formula Funding HO) £m £m

Lincolnshire 38.6 - - 20.4 6.8 Merseyside 123.2 - - 113.5 15.6 Norfolk 50.5 - - 28.9 9.3 North Wales 45.4 6.5 21.3 0.0 - North Yorkshire 41.9 - - 27.2 7.9 Northamptonshire 43.4 - - 24.3 6.6 Northumbria 110.8 - - 108.0 8.2 Nottinghamshire 78.4 - - 48.4 9.7 South Wales 89.3 - 71.2 0.0 - South Yorkshire 101.2 - - 77.9 10.9 Staffordshire 66.9 - - 40.2 11.3 Suffolk 41.0 - - 23.0 6.8 Surrey 62.5 - - 29.4 9.2 Sussex 98.4 - - 54.2 13.2 Thames Valley 142.0 - - 74.3 15.3 Warwickshire 31.2 - - 17.5 5.2 West Mercia 66.7 - - 43.6 12.0 West Midlands 252.3 - - 181.3 19.0 West Yorkshire 172.5 - - 130.1 16.7 Wiltshire 37.7 - - 20.8 5.2 Total England & Wales 4,309.2 12.5 135.0 2,818.3 503.2

Scientific Procedures on Living Animals requirements might be met. Scientific advances in knowledge and new technologies present significant opportunities to replace animal use, reduce the use of animals, and, The Minister for Crime Prevention (Lynne Featherstone): where animal use is unavoidable, to refine the procedures, The “Code of Practice for the Housing and Care of including the care and accommodation involved so as Animals Bred, Supplied or Used for Scientific Purposes”, to minimise suffering (3Rs). Consequently, the code is is being laid before the House today. Copies will be drafted so as to assist establishments to meet these available in the Vote Office. requirements, as well as encourage the application of up- The code of practice is intended to be a reference to-date evidence-based 3Rs approaches to accommodation document that contains standards and advice for housing and care. and care of protected animals bred, supplied and used The key outcomes driven by this code of practice are: for scientific purposes. Its purpose is to ensure that the to promote good animal welfare through the provision of design, construction and function of the installations consistent, high-quality care and accommodation; and equipment of licensed establishments—along with to support the generation of high-quality, reliable scientific their staffing, care and practices—allow procedures to results through the reduction of environmental variables; be carried out as effectively as possible. The code of to implement the principles of the 3Rs through using the practice will also help establishments fulfil their minimum number of animals and causing the minimum responsibility to continually seek to improve their standards degree of pain, suffering, distress or lasting harm. of care and accommodation in line with the principles Publication of this code of practice helps the Government of the 3Rs (replacement, reduction and refinement in fulfil their commitment to implementing the 3R’s and animal use), striving to adopt higher standards where of good regulation. It will maintain the UK’s position practicable and applicable. as an international leader in standards of practice. The Secretary of State is required to, The Secretary of State may issue revised codes of “issue codes of practice as to the care of protected animals” practice from time to time and proposes to complete the under section 21(2) of the Animals (Scientific Procedures) first review of this code of practice in approximately Act 1986 Amendment Regulations 2012 (SI 2012/3039) five years’ time. The code of practice is available at (ASPA). The publication of the code of practice also www.gov.uk/government/publications completes the transposition of the European directive 2010/63/EU, which sets out revised measures for the TRANSPORT protection of animals used for scientific purpose. As part of that transposition, from 1 January 2013, we harmonised standards with other EU member states National Networks Policy Statement where required and, where appropriate, maintained our higher standards while avoiding unnecessary bureaucracy The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr John and cost burden. Hayes): There is a critical need to improve the national The code of practice seeks to promote a shared networks to address road congestion and crowding on understanding between establishments and Home Office the railways, to facilitate safe and reliable journeys, and inspectors of the manner in which the mandated to provide a transport network that is capable of stimulating 107WS Written Statements17 DECEMBER 2014 Written Statements 108WS and supporting economic growth. There is also an Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Lord Freud), equally important need to ensure improvements have are publishing the Command Paper Cm 8986 “Child minimal impact on the environment, are well designed Maintenance and Other Payments Act 2008 Post-legislative and improve safety. Scrutiny Memorandum to the Work and Pensions Select The national networks national policy statement (NPS) Committee”. sets the policy against which the Secretary of State for The 2008 Act comprises a range of provisions including Transport will make decisions on applications for those which provided for the establishment of the Child development consent for nationally significant infrastructure Maintenance and Enforcement Commission (“C-MEC”), projects on the road and rail networks and strategic rail a non-departmental public body, which has since been freight interchanges. The statement is based on existing abolished. In addition, it contains the provisions Government policy and only applies to England. underpinning the new calculation measures for the 2012 Parliament has already played a valuable role in child maintenance scheme and provisions for closing scrutinising the national networks NPS. I would like to and transferring cases from the older child maintenance thank the Transport Select Committee for its report, all schemes, currently operated by the Child Support Agency: those who contributed to the debate in another place, a process which began in June of this year. It also and those who also undertook important scrutiny work contains a range of debt management, collection and on the earlier drafts. enforcement powers for the statutory child maintenance schemes, and provision to provide compensation payments I am today taking the opportunity to lay before you for sufferers of mesothelioma or their dependants, where the NPS for national networks in England pursuant to the sufferer has died before making a claim under the section 9(8) and 5(4) of the Planning Act 2008, and the Act. Government’s response to the public consultation on the draft national networks NPS, which commenced in As many of the child maintenance powers have only December 2013 for a period of 12 weeks. commenced in the past two to three years, and because the Secretary of State has committed to undertaking a Copies of all documents have been made available in wider review of child maintenance reforms, this the Libraries of both Houses and I am also publishing memorandum provides information on the set up of these documents on the Department’s website, with an C-MEC and how its functions are now carried out, how updated version of the appraisal of sustainability, a the 2008 Act’s provisions fit with wider coalition post-adoption statement and other supporting documents. Government policy and when a more detailed assessment of child maintenance reforms will be available. The evaluation strategy, which sets out our plans for assessing WORK AND PENSIONS the impacts of the reforms, will be published shortly. The 2008 Act provisions relating to mesothelioma Automatic Enrolment Thresholds lump sum compensation scheme payments came into force on 1 October 2008. We are therefore able to publish today, information about the implementation The Minister for Pensions (Steve Webb): I am today and take-up of the scheme since the scheme’s introduction. announcing the proposed automatic enrolment thresholds for next year. We intend to lay an order before Parliament in the new year which will include the following: Personal Independence Payments £5,824 for the lower limit of the qualifying earnings band; £42,385 for the upper limit of the qualifying earnings band. The Minister for Disabled People (Mr Mark Harper): The automatic enrolment earnings trigger will be The Government are pleased to announce that the first frozen at £10,000. independent review of the personal independence payment I am also publishing the Government’s response to (PIP) assessment, carried out by Paul Gray, will be the public consultation on the automatic enrolment published later today. This is the first of two independent earnings thresholds review later today on the gov.uk reviews as required by the Welfare Reform Act 2012. website. I attach a copy of the Government’s response Paul Gray has explored how the PIP assessment is to the public consultation on the automatic enrolment operating from the perspectives of claimants, health earnings thresholds review to this statement. professionals and other staff involved in delivery and Attachments can be viewed online at: http:// has made a number of recommendations designed to www.parliament.uk/writtenstatements improve the claimant experience. He has concluded that it is too early to draw definitive conclusions about the Child Maintenance and Other Payments Act 2008 overall effectiveness of the PIP assessment based on available published data and has made recommendations to help the Department ensure the fairness and consistency The Minister for Pensions (Steve Webb): Today, I, of award outcomes in the future. along with my hon. Friend the Minister for Disabled The Government welcome the review and will publish People (Mark Harper MP) and my noble Friend the a detailed response in due course.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 17 December 2014

Col. No. Col. No. INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 1385 INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT—continued Armed Conflict (Children)...... 1390 Topical Questions ...... 1392 Boko Haram ...... 1389 Ebola ...... 1385 PRIME MINISTER ...... 1394 Gaza ...... 1389 Engagements...... 1394 Small Businesses (Developing Countries)...... 1391 Engagements...... 1405 Tax Havens (Multinationals)...... 1386 Home Insulation ...... 1404 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Wednesday 17 December 2014

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 91WS HEALTH...... 96WS Science and Innovation ...... 91WS Mitochondrial Donation...... 96WS Nicotine-inhaling Products ...... 97WS CABINET OFFICE...... 91WS Smoking (Vehicles Carrying Children)...... 98WS Ministerial and Civil Service Pension...... 91WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 99WS COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 91WS Intercept Evidence ...... 99WS Local Government Improvement: Police Grant Report England and Wales 2015-16... 99WS Technical Consultation ...... 91WS Scientific Procedures on Living Animals...... 105WS DEFENCE...... 95WS Defence Reform: Review of Implementation ...... 95WS TRANSPORT ...... 106WS National Networks Policy Statement ...... 106WS EDUCATION...... 95WS School Revenue Funding 2015-16 ...... 95WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 107WS Automatic Enrolment Thresholds ...... 107WS ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 96WS Child Maintenance and Other Payments Act 2008. 107WS Coal Authority Triennial Review...... 96WS Personal Independence Payments ...... 108WS Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 17 December 2014

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 1385] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for International Development Prime Minister

Al-Sweady Inquiry Report [Col. 1407] Statement—(Mr Fallon)

Royal Assent [Col. 1423]

Women’s Refuges (Provision and Eligibility) [Col. 1424] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Norman Baker)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Opposition Day [11th allotted day] Housing Benefit (Abolition of Social Sector Size Criteria) [Col. 1427] Motion—(Rachel Reeves)—on a Division, negatived Amendment—(Mr Harper)—on a Division, agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to Food Banks [Col. 1480] Motion—(Maria Eagle)—on a Division, negatived

Warwick (1,100th Anniversary) [Col. 1524] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall BMI Pension Fund Compensation [Col. 501WH] Housing Need (Treasury Assistance) [Col. 519WH] Post Office Mediation Scheme [Col. 526WH] International Money Transfer Charges [Col. 549WH] Greyhound Welfare [Col. 554WH] Debates on motion for Adjourment

Written Statements [Col. 91WS]

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]