Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

TUESDAY, 30 JULY 1878

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

District Courts Act, Etc. [30 .JuLY.] Question ~vitkout Notice. 973

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY. Tuesday, 30 July, 1878. Question without Notice.-Selectors Relief Bill-third reading.-~:t:otion for Adjournment.-Supply-Con­ ttngent Motion-resumption of debate. The SPEAKER took the chair at half-past three o'clock. QUESTION WITHOUT NOTICE. Mr. MAcDoNALD asked the honourable the Secretary for Public Works- !. How far has the permanent survey of the proposed extension of the No1·thern Railway been completed westerly from Emerald Downs ? 2. When will the plans and sections be laid upon the table of this House and the sanction of Parliament be asked for said extension ? The MINISTER FOR ·woRKS (Mr. Miles) said, in re:l'erence to the question of the honourable member for Blackall, he could only speak from memory. He thought, however, he would be correct in saying that the Parliamentary survey had been com­ pleted to twenty-seven miles beyond Eme­ rald Downs. The plans and spe"cifications would be laid on the table of the House at an early date, and Parliamentary authority asked for the extension of the line to that extent. Mr. WALSH objected to the course that had been taken. The honourable member for Blackall asked a question, without pre­ vious notice, and immediately the "\1inister for \Yorks got up and-- The SPEAKER said the honourable mem­ ber could not raise a debate on the answer to a question. Mr. W ALSH said he would then have to move the adjournment of the House in order to call attention to the conduct of the Ministry with regard to the honourable member for Blackall. That honourable member, who had been summoned to assist the Government in a dilemma. came to the House with a question, and. the Minister came prepared with an answer. It took .weeks for the members on that (the Oppo­ sition) side of the .House to obtain informa­ tion from the Government, whereas the honourable member for Blackall was able to get from the Minister for Works, ap­ parently without any premeditation what­ ever, a most extraordinary answer to the most extraordinary question that had been propounded in this House. It showed an immense amount of corrupt practice on the part of the present Government to secure certain votes ; and he must confess that there had been too much of that. He begged to move the adjournment of the House. lVIr. MAcDoNALD was not in the least surprised by. the remarks of the honour­ able member for \Varrego, as that honour­ able member always seemed to judge others by his own standard. The question 974 Question without Notice. [ASSEMBLY.] Question tvitkout Notice. was so simple that he did not consider it ourable member, who had been telegraphed necessary to give notice; it was one such for, came down at the bidding of the Gov­ as the head of any department would be ernment, and put a question to the Minister quite prepared to answer. The first part for vV orks, although not in accordance with of the question related to the permanent the practice of the House, the Minister for survey, and the second asked when it was Works immediately got up and cheerfully proposed to lay plans on the table of the gave a most voluminous and substantial House for the sanction of Parliament. If answer. The Minister for Works knew he understood the answer to the second, very well that he had made play with the it was that the plans would be laid honourable member for Blackall, and he upon the table shortly, and very little thought he could fool honourable members time was required to consider such an of the Opposition. answer as that. If the honourable the Mr. ~fACFARLANE (Rockhampton) said Secretary for Works had named a par­ the information required by the honour­ ticular day, he (Mr. MacDonald) should able member for Blackall had been al­ have been more satisfied; but when the ready given by the Colonial Treasurer in honourable gentleman said "shortly," it the course of a recent debate. Had the did not appear as though he had considered honourable member been present on that the question. The distance was only occasion, it was probable he would not twenty-seven miles, and, surely, if the have asked his question. The Colonial honourable member for W arrego himself Treasurer then stated that it was the in­ had occupied the position of Minister for tention of the Government to ask the au­ Works, he would not have expected two or thority of Parliament for a further exten­ three days' notice to answer such a ques­ sion westward. tion. He did not see what object was to be Mr. BELL would call attention to the gained by giving notice. His reason for action of the Minister for Works in giving bringing forward the question was, that he two answers in replying to the question of had heard that the timber-getters had the honourable member for Blackall. First actually reached the end of the line at of all, he gave an answer which was not Emerald Downs, and 150 of them had been satisfactory to the honourable member, and paid off. It was, therefore, quite time that then he gave one that was satisfactory. No such a question was put, and a satisfactory answer elicited. He hoped the short time honourable member on that (the Opposi­ referred to woul

SELECTORS RELIEF BILL-THIRD to, he was talking to the office-keeper about READING. a telegram which was sent to Melbourne, On the motion o£ Mr. MACFARLANE the delay in sending which had entailed on (Rockhampton), this Bill was read a third him a loss of about£150. Hewouldnothave time, passed, and ordered to be trans­ mentioned the circumstance, but that he mitted tD the Legislative Council with the happened to be in the office at the time usual message. when the telegram to which the honour!!:ble m emher :for '\V arrego had referred was sent. Such delays were of frequent occur­ MOTION FOR ADJOURNMENT. rence. Mr. W ALSH said he did not like to Mr. McLEAN mentioned a case where a intrude upon the House, but he had just telegram from Maryborough had been four received information that there had been weeks in arriving at its destination. He forwarded to him from Toowoomba early was not surprised, therefore, at a delay of this morning, a telegram whioh he had not a few hours, and attributed it to the enve­ yet received. He might not himself be a lopes not being properly addressed. very important personage, but the same Mr. BELL attributed the delay to the circumstance was likely to occur to other want of sufficient wiring capacity. vVhen persons, and he considered the delay in he last mentioned this subject here, Gov­ the telegraphic department was a grievance. ernment promised to put on at least one He would therefore call the attention of additional wire. That had not yet been the Premier, or the official in the House done-probably there had not been time who was responsible for the department, for it-b!1t he believed that on inquiry it to the fact that he (Mr. vValsh) had the would be found that an additional wire fullest information that a telegram which was the only thing wanted. he had not yet received had been sent to Mr. MoREHEAD thought it was hardly him very early this morning from Too­ worth while discussing the matter now ; it woomba. He did not suppose there was any would be better to take it when the tele­ value in that particular telegram ; but he graph estimates came on. Complaints on knew i.t had been sent, as the sender was this score had been made session after at the present moment in the House ; session, and, as yet, no redress had been and he (Mr. W alsh) wished to call atten­ given. He recently formed one of a depu­ tion to the subject in order to prevent tation to the Postmaster-General on this the recurrence of delays which might be very subject, and the only reply they got fatal to persons who perhaps had less in­ -not from the Postmaster-General, who fluence than himself. He cared nothing was always courteous, but from J\l[r. Crack­ on his own account, but a great deal oil nell-was that the telegraph department of account of the public. He begged to move Queensland was superior to that of any of the adjournment of the House. the other colonies. He might mention that The PREMIER (Mr. Douglas) said he the other day he received a telegram from would make the necessary inquiries into Blackall, asking whether the honourable the matter. It was not a matter of usual member for Maranoa had received a cer­ occurrence, and he presumed the telegram tain telegram which had been despatched had been sent from Toowoomba, but was to h1m four days previously. On being probably directed to the honourable mem­ applied to by him, the honourable member ber's private residence. He hoped such for JYlaranoa said he had never heard of would turn out to be the case. In the any such telegram, and he (Mr. Morehead) meantime he would make inquiries, and believed he had not received it from that have the matter investigated. day to this. A full debate on this ques­ Mr. BAILEY said it would be found that tion, he hoped, would be taken when the the constant practice, not only between telegraph vote came under consideration. Toowoomba and Brisbane, but in other Mr. BEoR said he wished to take advan­ parts, was to delay telegrams. He knew tage of the motion to refer to the very in­ a ease in which a party, coming down from convenient arrangement of trains in the Toowoomba to Brisbane, wired a message new time-table, to come into operation on down, but reached Brisbane several hours the first of next month. For some time before the telegram was delivered. He past there had been a train running which also knew of several other instances of arrived in Brisbane a little before ten simila1; delays. vVhen the honourable the o'clock in the morning. This was a most Premier made inquiries, the investigation convenient train, and ""as made use of by should be a thorough one, as the conduct a great many persons whose business in of the department was very unsatisfactory town began about ten o'clock. In the new indeed. time-table that train was done away with, Mr. PERKINS said that delays at Too­ and two trains were substituted, each of woomba were of very frequent occurrence, which arrived in Brisbane about nine and when he had made a complaint he had o'clock-one about ten minutes before the been as good as told that he was telling other. This would be a very inconvenient falsehoods. On the occasion he referred arrangement, ancl he trusted the depart- 976 Supply- [ASSEMBLY.] Oontin,qent Motion. ment would make an endeavour to meet perused it afterwards, and he was struek the convenience of the public. with the entire absence therefrom of any The MINISTER FOR WoRKs said that in allusion whatever to a loan. He had also arranging the new time-table, every en­ watched the progress of the sale ofrailwayre- deavour had been made to meet the con­ ' serves in the colony, and from the timtl of the venience of the public. It was impossible test sale of the Rorna lands, he had con­ to construct a time-table which would meet sistently opposed the continuation o£ sales the wishes of every individual in the of this sort. He was particularly struck colony, and the department had done its by the fact that the Colonial Treasurer best to meet the convenience of the general expected to realise, before the 30th June, travelling public. An endeavour had been 1879, no less a sum than £180,000 from the made to meet the complaint that persons sale of land in the railway reserves. It residing west of Toowoomba could not get was not until after the debate on the to 'l'oowoomba, transact their business, and Financial Statement-not until after the return the same day, owing to the hour at honourable member for Maranoa had which the train left Brisbane; in fact, the clearly shown the necessity for a loan­ department had done its best to suit the that the Colonial Treasurer, in his reply on convenience of the public generally. that debate. announced that the Govern­ Mr. WALSH complimented the Minister ment intend-ed to come down and ask for a for vVorks on the altered time-table, be­ small loan. It was impossible for any public cause, as far as he could gather, the public man who had directed his attention to the were altogether pleased with the proposed course o£ public events during the last eight­ alterations. He felt sure, however, that if een months not to be convinced that on no the Government would inquire into the account must there be a stoppage of our way in which telegraphic messages were public works ; and it was equally impos­ sent out, they would greatly relieve the sible that they could all be kept going dissa tisfactiou that was so generally from the proceeds of the sale of the public felt in respect thereto. He might mention lands. The proposal of the honourable that in the old New South '\Vales Parlia­ member for Maranoa was to borrow ment both telegrams and letters were deli­ £3,000,000 for the construction of the vered to members while sitting in the works which he at the time enumerated. House. The policy of the Government, on the Question for adjournment put and nega­ other hand, was to get a small loan and tived. to obtain the balance required from the sale of public lands. A distinct issue was SUPPLY-CONTINGENT MOTION--RE­ thus raised, on which the House and the SUMPTION OF DEBATE. constituencies would have to be appealed to. Whether they were prepared, in the Mr. GROOM, in resuming the debate upon face of the sales they had already the Colonial Treasurer's motion--" That witnessed, and which had resulted in the Speaker do now leave the chair, and such a lamentable failure, still to sacrifice the House resolve itself into a Committee the public lands of the colony for this pur­ of the '\7\rhole, further to consider the pose, he knew not; but he held it was high Supply to be granted to Her Majesty" ; time they asked themselv

THE WESTERN RAILWAY He had been on the Conservative side is now under construction, and it is expected to-day, on the Coalition side to-morrow, that it will be completed before the end of and on the Liberal side the day afterwards ; 1878. and everyone of the Governments to A PERMANENT AND CERTAIN MEANS OF which the honourable gentleman had ACCESS belonged, had had dealings with the Dar­ will thus be secured to the country now ling Downs lands, which until the last few offered, and in a few years' time it is certain years had been disposed of at an average that a value considerably in ad,-ance of what rate of 5s. per acre. He might mention is likely to be realised at the present t1me that at the present moment a portion of must attach to properties such as these. these lands, being the private estate o£ a No more valuable addition for pastoral pur­ person lately deceased, was being offered poses could be made to the working of a by the executors at from £3 to £5 per acre squatting property on the Barcoo, the 'l'homp­ on terms. But for the railway those lands son, or the Upper W arrego, than the possession would never have been so highly valuable. of a few thousand acres of freehold property on It was an undisputed fact that the best the Fitzroy Downs." of the lands on Darling Downs had been Then the public were treated to an extract literally given away for political expe­ from Sir Thomas Mitchell's journal, in diency. No excuse could be urged now which that explorer said :- for a repetition of that procedure, £or no such expediency had now arisen. In "Riding to the N.N.E., in about two hours the face of the result of the Roma we came upon the identical river we had so sale, thB Government attempted an long followed up. It was accompanied as usual by the Acacia pendula, had its rounded bergs, experiment with the lands on Jim­ reedy waterholes, and an open strip along the bour, and although they were not left bank. Crossing it, I rode over towards an advertised in such magnificent terms as elevated part of the open downs, in hopes to the Roma lands, yet they had been des cri bed obtain sight of what the country was beyond; in equally glowing language. And what but I found that to be impossible, as it seemed did they again find ? There was not a boundless. So, turning, I ascended an elevated solitary selector at the sale, and Mr. north-easterly extremity of Mount Abundance, Bell, Mr. Tyson, and Mr. Taylor bought whatever they required, at the upset AND FROM IT BEHELD THE FINEST COUNTRY I price. He could not, as the Attorney­ HAD EVER SEEN IN A PRIMEVAL STATE- General did the other night, regard these a champaignregion, spotted with wood, stretch­ sales as a triumphant success. In what ing as far as human vision, or even the telescope did the success consist ? \Vhere was the could reach." settlement that had taken place in conse­ Could any language more vividly depict quence of those sales P Success should the admirable excellencies o£ this land consist in the settlement of people on than that set forth in this advertisement? the land, and not in the disposal of The terms of that advertisement struck it in large blocks. The evil of large him forcibly, and he made it his business estates had been abundantly shown in to attend the first sale in Brisbane. But Victoria, and i£ they wished to profit by there were only four buyers, and the question the example set by that colony it was the would naturally arise, who were they ? duty of the Government not to aggregate They were not, as might be expected, per~ estates, but to settle people on the land. sons desirous of settling on the land; they Believing this, he (Mr. Groom), when the were simply the holders of the stations Premier introduced his Railway Reserves where these lands were situated, and who Bill, gave it his strongest opposition, stating naturally went into the market, not to that if he could get two or three members convert them into any higher use, but to assist him, he would endeavour to defeat to protect themselves from others. Of it altogether. :For some reason or other, the Mount Abundance country, 90,000 he did not get any support-probably hon­ or 100,000 acres went to the Scottish ourable members were disposed to let the Australian Investment Company; the Premier have the full length of his tether. late Jonathan McLean purchased 40,000 However, matters had now come to such acres, and two other buyers purchased a pass that it had become necessary the remainder. Beyond these gentle­ to adopt the very policy which the Premier men there was not a solitary pur­ formerly said he would not adopt. As far as chaser, and these lands, so admirably de­ land sales were concerned, he (Mr. Groom) scribed in the advertisement, were sacri­ had always been opposed to the sale of ficed at an average pf 17s. per acre. If large areas, and the published returns these lands had been kept until the railway bearing on this subject, and which sub­ had reached Roma, they would have real­ stantiated his reasons, were very interest­ ised at least five or six times the price. On ing. In the three years preceding the com­ that point there could not be the slightest mercial crisis of 1866, the amount of money doubt. The present Premier had been a invested in town allotments was £119,178 member of . a great many Governments. 1s. 9d., and, in country and suburban 978 Supply- [ASSEMBLY.] Contingent Motion.

lands, £396,508 17s. 10d.; :onaking a total the intention of the Government to extend of £515,686 19s. 7d. There was then a lines of rail way into the interior of the gradual falling off after the crisis and country, except on the principle that those until1875. In the years 1875, 1876, and who were benefited bv those lines should 1877, the same spirit of gambling in land pay for them, either by forced sales of land again showed itself, and we were again or by an adjustment of territorial taxation. on the verge of, if not already within Those were, he believed, the honourable the vortex of a commercial crisis in gentleman's words. The honourable gen­ 1878. During those three years, town tleman was also pleased to say that he had lands were sold amounting to £58,377, and copied this system from the honourable country and suburban lands amounting to the Speaker, and that it was when £756,841 ; or a total of £815,219. But travelling in America he was convinced that was not all. These were only cash of the great good w hi eh resulted from sales realised at auction. During the nine the apportionment of land for the construc­ years from 1868 to 1877, inciusive, there tion of railways. 1\' ow, he (Mr. Groom) were conditionally selected 3,061,014 arres, would quote, for the information of the and selected in homestead areas 393,184 honourable gentleman, an article from the acres, making a total of 3,454,198 acres. ]Yew York rl'ribune, which was a recognised The surest test to show whether these trans­ authority amongst a large section of the actions were bona fide-whether the pur­ American people. This journal, published chasers of this land were devoting it to bet­ in January last, said:- ter purposes than heretofore-was itR pro­ " The system of givin.; grants of land to rail­ ductiveness. ·what did they find? Out of road companies and other speculating corpora­ these 3,061,014 acres of cond1tionally tions, is recogni~ed as a monstrous deviee of selected land, there were only 25,480 acres corruption and dishonesty. 'l'he grants alreaqy under cultivation ; and out of the 393,184 reached a total of 215,0f.O,OOO acres, but an acres taken up as homestead selectiom, attempt is being made to reco'l'er a large portion only 18,057 acres were under cultivation; or of this area. N f'llrly all the companies have a total out of the 3,454,198 acres selected, in­ failed in the conditions upon which the gifts clu~ing ?,958 acres under orchard or garden were made. 'The grants to only five roads have cultlvatwn, of not more than 46,492 arres. been fully adjusted ; the grants to only four of Why, the fact, from these figures, -was the remainder have been declared forfPit; and clear to the mind of anyone that they of the 215,000,000 acres conditi0nally appro­ priated to the subsidy roads, only one· fifth part had been carrying on a system of gamb­ has been cm·tified and patentea to them, and ling in land, for which every facility had that fifth was more than they earned. The been afforded ; and what was the result? Commissioner of the Land Office bas pub­ That people were unable at that moment lished a li~t of twenty companies whose to even fence in their land, much less grants and extensions of grants haven o-.v expired; devote it to good and beneficial purposes ; some of them ran out eleven or twelve and they found the colony in a comnwrcial years ago ; more than half of them have crisi~. It was perfectly true the drought never built a mile of road, although in some was responsible for that to some extent, instances they have actually received patents but it was not wholly responsible for it. for large amounts of the land to which they had Look at the large amount of money that no just title. It appears to have been popularly was sent out of the colony yearly for supposed that when these grants ran out the articles of consumption that the lands here title to the land reverted to the Go'l'ernment were quite capable of producing; but those without furtber process. A decision of the lands, instead of being devoted to cultiva­ Supreme Court, however, establishes the im­ pm·tant rule that the grants, notwithstanding tion, were taken up for grazing purposes, the limitations contained in them, remain valid and grazing purposes only. With these until the declaration of forfeiture is enforced facts before him. he had come to the con­ by proper legi•lative or judicial proceedings . . elusion that in the pr~sent circumstances 'l'here are consequently clefnnd, or bankrupt, of the colony it was neither wise nor or unsuccessful, or fraudulent railway companies judicious to allow any more salt's of land which still hold the title of millions of acres of by auction; and if it were possible for him subsidy lands that they have not earned and to table a motion to stop wch sales alto­ have no prospec·t or intention or earmng. .Mr. gether, he should certainly do so; but he J oyce, of Y ermont, has introduced in the House could not take that course, and between the a joint resolution for the recovery of these for­ two-between stopping auction sales alto­ feited lands (with due protection to bona fide gether and the policy of borrowing money purchasers), and their appropriation to the use for the construction of our public works-he of actual settlers, or to purposes of education." preferred the latter; and on that ground, It therefore appeared that the system of land which was quite consistent with the whole grants for raill'l'ay purposes had not been at of his action in connection with the matter, all a success in America, as some persons had he should this evening vote for the motion tried to lead them to believe. ln the case of the honourable member for Maranoa. referred to, it was a free grant of land The honourable the Premier, in addressing under certain conditions on the construc­ the House the other evening, said it was not tion of the works ; but in the present case Supply- [30 JuLY.] Contingent Motion. 979 the honourable gentleman proposed to sell nerative they became. By this means the land and devote the proceeds to the con­ railways in Victoria now not only paid struction of railways. He (Mr. Groom) working expenses and interest on the entirely dissPnted from that doctrine of original cost, but contributed a considerable that honourable gentleman, and he would sum to the general revenue-nearly a million ask him to point out any other British colony sterling per annum. And in South Aus­ or number of colonies where ~urh a policy tralia, to which the honourable gentleman had been adopted or endorsed, and he sometimes referred as a model colony­ would ask him if he had rrad, and read and he (Mr. Groom) believed it had a attentively, the speech delivered by Sir model Premier-the policy adopted was to Hercules Hobinson at Bathurst about two construct some twenty-two lines of rail­ years ago, in refprence to railway construc­ way; but was it said that the people of the tion. His Excellency then· drrw attention district through which these lines passed to the snail's progress that had been made should be taxed especially to pay the in­ by all the colonies vdth rail ways, and pointed terest on the cost of construction? No, the out the great neeessity, especially in colo­ principle held there was that all classes of nies like these, where there were few large the community must necessarily benefit by navigable rivers, that existed for railways, the construction of railways, and it was a in order to develop as far as possible sound principle. Wouldanymemberrepre­ the resources of the interior. There was not senting the city of Brisbane say that a word said by him or by the statesmen if our railways were carried into the who followed him-Sir ,John l{obertson or remote and vast interior which Sir Sir Henry Parkes-about adopting the Thomas Mitchell spoke of-that boundless policy he (Mr. Douglas) now foreshadowed. and almost illimitable district so admir­ If that principle was a good and sound one, ably adapted for pastJral purposes, and as the honourable gentleman represented it which, if they were to believe the gentle­ to be, why did he not carry it out in every man recently speaking at a banquet at Ara­ instance P -Why was it not embodied in mac, was also admirably adapted for agri­ the railways already formulated and car­ cultural settlement-he asked, would any ried through the House? And why was honourable member dare to say that the it not proposed in connection with these city of Brisbane would not derive consider­ branch rail ways, and why not declare able benefit from the construction of that that the districts benefited by those rail­ line P He believed, in every way they ways shonld be taxed for their construc­ could look at it-on commercial grounds tion? and all grounds of public policy-it was An Ho"'OURABLE JYIE~IBER: They are far better to extend our lines into the vast taxed ; the land is sold. interior by means of borrowed capital than Mr. Grroo111 said the land might be sold; to sacrifice the public lands in the way hut by whom had it been sold, and what they were doing just now to carry on public had been clone with the proceeds? works. How could these works be carried An HoxouRABLE J\fEliiBER : The Too­ on ? On looking over the returns fur­ woomba line. nished from the Lands Office, bearing the Mr. Grwo::11 said the Toowoomba line impress of the Under Secretary for Lands, was constructed by loan, and not by sales he found that the total amount of money of land. The interest had been derived received from theWestern railway reserves partly from the proceeds of sales of lands last year was £289.545. The greater part throughout the colony, not from al}y par­ of that was derived from the Darling ticular districts. As was pointed out by Downs. In the Southern railway reserve, his honourable colleague the other evening, the railway which was to cost half-a-mil­ from a return laid on the table of the lion, the amount received was £1,065 18s. House, of £117,000 derived from sales of In that reserve there were 11,000 or 12,000 land last year, £87,000 was contributed by acres which ought to have been offered to the Darling Downs. How much came from the people for settlement; but the honour­ East and \Vest Moreton, and especially able gentleman refused to place it in the the formpr? They might just as well say market for that purpose, but sold it in the D"rling Downs paid for the building large blocks, which were bought by two they were sitting in, which cost £90,000, or persons-Mr. Gore, of Yandilla, a par­ for the new Supreme Court, or the Post ticular friend of the honourable gentle­ and Telegraph Offices. The argument man's-- would not hold water any way. If rail­ The PRE::I1IER : I don't know him. ways were to be constructed at all, his im­ Mr. GRoo::l1 said he was sorry to hear pression was that they should be carried the honourable gentleman say so, because out as they had always been hitherto in he had heard him say he was one of the few this colony-by borrowed capital. If hon­ men untainted by dummying. The other ourable members turned to New South purchaser was a Mr. Pierce, who had a se­ \Vales and Victoria, they would see lection adjoining, and he was compelled to clearly that the more railways were do what many others had had to do. In !);x;tended into the interior the n10re remu- order to extend his area aud save himself 980 Supply- [ASSEMBLY.] Contingent Motion. from ruin, he had to go to his bankers and support it, because, as soon as the railway make arrangements with them to enable reached Roma, the value of those him to do so. In the Wide Bay and Bur­ lands would be greatly enhanced­ nett railway reserve, where there were two tht>y would be worth about £3 an acre­ railways to be constructed, the amount re­ so that the honourable gentleman had ceived was £10,564; in the Central re­ practically made the company that pur­ serve, £209,541; and in the Kennedy re­ chased them a present of a quarter of a serve, £224. That was the amount re­ million of money, which ought to have gone ceived last year from these reserves into the Treasury. The honourable gen­ for the works to be constructed in tleman, when addressing the House the them. Now, the honourable the Trea­ other evening on this question, referred to surer told the House in his Financial it in a spirit of party, and charged the hon­ Statement that the Government intend­ ourable member for Maranoa ·with being ed to ask the House. for £150,000 for the greedy of office. Now, the honourable line from Warwick to Stanthorpe, £150,000 gentleman at the head of the Government for the extension from Dalby to Roma; had been particularly apt in applying ex­ £100,000 from Maryborough to Gym pie; pressions of that kind to honourable mem­ £100,000 fr0m Comet to Emerald Downs ; bers this session. The other evening he £100,000 for the extension from Emerald charged thehonourablememberfor Aubigny Downs ; and £100,000 for the line from with want of temper, because he had ex­ Townsville to Charters Towers ; making a pressed himself in rather strong terms on a total of £80(),000. It was clear, on the subject that he felt warmly upon. He was very face of it, from these figures, that it also pleased to designate him (Mr. Groom) would be utterly impossible to make all as an enemy of progress, because he chose these railways on the principle laid down to vote in support of a motion which had a by the Premier himself. He contended tendency to stop the growing ascendancy that it would be much better to repeal the of the metropolis ; and in the course of this railway reserves at once, and go on the discussion he had charged the honourable broad basis that these works should be member for Maranoa with greed of office. constructed by means of borrowed capital. Now, he did not think there was a single He should not weary the House by going membPr of the House who was less liable into details of the question, as it affected to a charge of that kmd than that hon­ the· general interests of the colony, because ourable gentleman. ·what were the real that had been carefully and well ventilated facts of the case in regard to that hon­ by the public Press, not only in this colony, ourable gentleman P When the Palmer but also in the adjoining colonies. It had Ministry retired in 1874, and Mr. Mac­ been shown as conclusively as it was lister was commissioned to form a Ministry, possible for facts and figures to prove that honourable member was asked before 1t, that as far as New South Wales any other member to accept office as Min­ was concerned, from which colony the ister for Works. Then, when there was a honourable gentleman at the head of the disagreement in the Cabinet, and he retired, Government borrowed his policy of sell­ a discussion took place on the matter in ing land by auction-that that policy the House, and Mr. Macalister was only had been attended with something ap­ too anxious to get him back, and sent an proachi?g ruin. Mortgages on pastoral emissary to ask him to take his portfolio properties were never higher than they again. Then when the, disruption took were now; discounts in the banks were place on the motion of the honourable higher than ever they were, and commercial member for Kennedy, and :iYir. Macalister depression exi~ted equal almost to that of left office without tendering any advice to the crisis of 1866. To such an extent did His Excellency, it was a matter of noto­ this depression extend tht>re at this moment riety that Mr. Hemmant advised the that it was impossible for the Treasurer to Governor to send for the honourable mem­ attempt to withdraw money, although ber for Maranoa. the Government had three millions to The ArroRNEY·GENER.A.L: Not so. their credit in the banks, and they Mr. GRoo~I said he was stating facts. had therefore to propose to borrow a On the authority of the late Premier, the million and a-hal£ to carry on works Honourable George Thorn, who informed already .authorised. 'With this staring him (Mr. Groom) not only that Mr. Hem­ them in the face, to carry on a policy of mant had so advised the Governor, but selling the public lands of the colony in that His Excelleney had shown him (Mr. the W'1Y they had been sold, would be Thorn) a letter addressed to Mr.l\fci!wraith suicidal ; and if the motion of the honour­ to be sent to him if Mr. Thorn failed to able member for Maranoa was a protest form a Ministry with himself as Premier. against the policy of the Premier for Then, when Mr. George Thorn undertook selling land as he had already done, he to form a Ministry, it was well known the (Mr. Groom) should support it. If it were first thing he did was to ask the hcnourable on account of his action regarding the member for }faranoa to become one of his lands at Mount Abundance alone, he should colleagues. And he should like to ask the Supply- Contingent J!fotion. 981

Premier himself whether he had not been that, he would ask what was it? The hon­ coquetting with the honourable member for ourable gentleman had quoted precedents Maranoa himself to get him to join the the other night, but he could find a good Ministry? precedent in the action of Lord Derby re­ The PREMIER : No. cently, who, not agreeing with the policy Mr. GRooM said he believed efforts had of Lord Beaconsfield when calling out the been made to seduce the honourable mem­ army reserves, retired from office. But ber to go over to the Government ranks. there was no retirement in the case of the The Premier was the last person who should honourable gentleman. It was merely a raise a

Government was to sacrifice the public the gentlemen on the opposite side of the lands to raise money, while the policy of House condemned as strongly as he did. the honourable member for Maranoa was Things had very much changed since then. to borrow money to construct public works In the early part of 1867, the Darling already authorised, and such further works Downs squatters were able to form a Min­ as the House might think necessary. istry almost by themselves-indeed at one There had been a great deal of clap-trap time, there were three, if not four of those circulated to the effect that this motion gentlemen in a Ministry. The honourable was closely connected with the Queens­ member for Dalby was the only re­ lanJer exploring expedition; but he did not maining relic left in the House of the believe a word of it. I£ he thought for one black-soil squatters-as they were then moment that there was any connection designated-and he was always regarded either directly or indirectly between the as the most liberal-minded of the whole of two he would have nothing whatever to do them. But there was now a Liberal Minis­ with it. He believed it was only an idle tale try in power-Liberal in name, but certainly circulated by people down here, and that it not in principles. Their land policy was was not believed by any intelligent per­ the very reverse of Liberal, at least, so far sons. He had too much confidence in the as it affected the Darling Downs. The honourable member for Maranoa to believe honourable member for Port Curtis (Mr. anything of the sort. .At any rate there Palmer) once declared-he thought itwas was this great safeguard: That no railways in 1867-that to limit a man to 320 acres could be constructed without the authority on the Darling Downs was to make a cattle­ of that House ; and if it were proved when stealer of him. Well, if 320 acres would the plans and books of reference of any rail­ make a selector a cattle-stealer in 1867, way came before the House for approval what would eighty acres of stony, barren, that they were directly or indirectly con­ waterless ridges make him in 1878 P Land nected with the motion of the honourable on unwatered stony country, which was member, he (Mr. Groom) would be one of not worth 5s. an acre, and yet £2 was asked the first to vote against them. He was for it; yet the latter limited area, and in not one of those who could be led astray by such country, was the creation of a Liberal such cries. He believed there were hon­ Ministry who were placed in office by the ourable members opposite who were just acclaim of the people in 1874, expressly as anxious to see the colony advance and on the faith of passing a liberal land law. prosper as any honourable gentleman on The people asked for bread and in return that side. He would be the last to cry received a stone-They asked for a liberal down the TJublic men of the colony, a land policy, and they received in return course which neither looked nor sounded the very illiberal Land Act of 1876. They well. There were some gentlemen in the had seen the fairest of the land pass away Ministry whose words he would be always from them in large areas at auction sales, ready to take; but there were others whose while they themselves-the bone and sinew vacillating conduct was a source of danger of the country-had been "cabined, to any Government they were connected cribbed, and confined" to the smallest with, and to the country also. He could possible area. The Liberal party, and its say, that as far as he was concerned, he had Government of 1874, had all but dis­ no personal interest whatever in this ques­ appeared, and in its place there was tion. His sole object was the good of arising a new creation-a party not ruled the country and the good of the people or governed by political principles, but by amongst whom he lived. He believed schemes, by devices, and misrepresenta­ that if he served them conscientiously tions in their Press orgal\s of the honestly­ he would be serving the country faith­ expressed opinions of members of this fully, and he was convinced that he was House. During the passage of the Elec­ doing that in the course he now adopted. toral Districts Bill, they saw the efforts He had now given at some length the made to strengthen and consolidate this reasons for the vote he should record to­ new creation-this new governing body­ night. He should record it firmly and whose chief political creed consisted iu the conscientiously, believing that the proposal belief that Queen street was Queensland, of the honourable member for Maranoa and that all the rest of the colony, and was the best and wisest to be followed in even of the city itself, was merely sub­ the present position of the country. He sidiary country to be considered only knew he should be charged with deserting when the expediency of the moment might the Liberal party, and with having voted demand it. with gentlemen who had been charged with Mr. KrNGSFORD : Sublime. hostility to progress. The principles and Mr. GROOM said there was one step opinions he had expressed that afternoon from the sublime to the ridiculous, and the were the same that he entertained when honourable member's interruption was an he entered that House, sixteen years ago. instance of it. In voting for the motion of He was then a determined opponent of the the honourable member for Maranoa, he grasping, selfish policy of the Darling was confident he was acting in consonance Downs squatters-a policy that some of with the wishes and sentiments of the large Supply- [30 JuLY.] Contingent Motion. 983 majority of the people of the colony. They except in matters of detail ; but the did not wish any further sacrifice of the honourable member for Toowoomba had public estate. They desired that the pointed out at least one difference, and that country should avail itself of its borrowing was the main difference, which had been powers to a moderate extent, and by the tried to be avoided by the two members of vigorous prosecution of the public works, the Government to whom he alluded. The ward off, as far as they could, the more seri­ difference which was sought ta be avoided ous consequences of the present commercial or skimmed over was this-that in the one depression. If the drought broke up at an case the House had a scheme placed before early date (and he was sure we all hoped them by which railways were to be made it might do so), and trade improved and out of the proceeds of lands, whilst in the their prospects became brighter, the rapid other, namely, that of the honourable mem­ extension of railways and other reproduc­ ber for Maranoa, they were to be made out tive works would be found of the utmost of borrowed money. It was very curious value to all classes of the community. The to watch the course that the proposals of loan of three millions would help in this the Government side had taken since he direction, and would assist not only in afford­ had had the honour of a seat in that House ing employment to the industrial classes, and a little before that. It was well but in opening up the vast interior, known to all honourable members and be.sides extending the blessings of rapid persons both inside and outside of the communication to the more settled districts. House, that the railways were to be He did not mean to say that there was a made in the first instance out of money to be disposition in the country that the Ministry raised by the sale of lands-there was no should be turned out of office, but there mention made of borrowing at all. That was a strong feeling that the motion of the proposition was before the country for a honourable member for Maranoa should long time, and there was a kind of enthu­ be carried. He was going to vote for the siasm expressed at the promise made-that motion, as he believed it was the best the country was to have railways without course that could be taken in the paying anything for them, without paying present commerrial crisis. He had: been a farthing of taxation, or without being all along opposed to the construction of asked to go into the money-market to make railways by the sale of lands, and he was them. But what was the next thing they strongly of opinion that the Premier's heard? Why at the end of last session, policy was against the wishes of the people, when the last Railway Bill was brought in, and the interest of the country. He and when he was sitting on the Government should vote for the motion, believing that cross-benches, the honourable Premier used he should be best serving the interests of words to this effect, " We do not intend his constituents, and of the country, by to pay for railways directly out of land, but taking that course. we will hold out these reserved lands before Mr. BEOR said that the position in thepeoplewhoare going to lend us the money which they were placed just now, reminded and say, There is your security." Those him of some lines of Milton that he were almost identically the words used by remembered:- the honourable gentleman last session, and "This said, he sat, and expectation held he listened to them most attentively, and The Assembly mute, awaiting who appeared recollected a great portion of them, for he To answer or oppose." was not sure at the time, nor could he dis­ Was there, he would ask, nobody on the cover, what was the policy of the Govern­ Government side of the House who would ment on which they were going to make venture to reply to what had been advanced the railways. He had really understood by the honourable member for Toowoomba, the honourable gentleman to say that he or were they to take that honourable mem­ was prepared to reserve the lands only for ber's arguments as unanswerable P It ap­ the purpose of paying interest ; but he peared to be the last proposition which the might have misunderstood him, as it came House was content to assume. There out quite fairly in the speech afterwards, seemed to be a large number of honour­ and the statement was reiterated by the able members who were contented to vote honourable Attorney-General, that the against the side on which the honourable railways were to be made and paid for member had spoken, but who were unable out of lands. First of all the policy to assign their reasons for doing so. From was that the railways were to be made the outset of the present debate great efforts out of the proceeds from lands ; from had been made by the honourable Premier that they had this step-that the land was in the first place, and, he thought, by the only to be held out as a security for honourable Attorney-General afterwards, the money borrowed ; and now they had to show that there was really no differ­ advanced another step, namely, that the ence between the propo&ition brought branch railways were to be made out of forward bv the honourable member for borrowed money, without any reference to Maranoa "and the scheme which had the lands at all. That was what they been already planned by the Government, had come to by steps ; at last they were 1878-3 w 984 SupptJJ- [.ASS:ElMBLY.] Contingent Mot~Mt.

coming by steps to the very policy which pushed on, and he believed for his part he had always understood to be the policy that it would be much better to finish one of the Opposition. He thought it was a railway before they commenced anqther. good thing that they were doing so, but Some had been commenced, and the country was it, he would ask, an attitude which was bound to proceed with them. Again, a Government should assume ?-was it he contended, from the mode in which a dignified position for any Govern­ the present railways had been commenced, ment P The Government had shown that if the Government were really looking they had arrived at their present policy forward to a bold and vigorous policy of partly by conviction, partly by having their making railways in future, it was some­ eyes open, and partly by the force the Op­ thing entirely new to them. He thought it position had had upon them in directing was a most extraordinary thing that such their movements. There was another dis­ a policy should have struck them at the tinction which existed between the policy very moment the motion of the honourable of the Government and that proposed by member for Maranoa was brought forward, the honourable member for Maranoa. The But there was another thing-not only that Government were satisfied with coming that policy was a new one, but there were before the country and saying, " We are other grounds to show that the Govern­ going to make you any number of railways; ment had no intention of pursuing the bold we are going to make a railway right away and vigorous policy they had just an­ from Rockhampton to the West; we are nounced they were willing to adopt, and going to extend a line from Charters that was brought to his mind by a state­ Towers, also one from Clermont ; we will ment made by a Minister of the Crown, make a line from Ipswich to Fassifern, the other night, and which was alluded to also one to the Logan, and one from Oxley by the honourable member for Toowoom ba: to South Brisbane," and he did not know a statement by the honourable Attorney­ how many more they were willing to make ; General, that the populous districts we!e but if they were to conduct the extension not likely to consent to be taxed for rml­ of those railways in the way in which ways into the interior. If they were not, they had begun to construct them, and in all he (Mr. Beor) could say was, that ~he the manner in which they had conducted populous districts would 'be very foohsh those already constructed, how far, he indeed. That was what he understood the should like to know, would the railways honourable gentleman to say. get under the Liberal Government? The TheATTOR:NEY -GENERAL saidhemustcor­ country was at present in this position, rect the honourable member. What he that there were started a few railways said was, that the opinion of the new coi?-­ which were in such a condition that they stituencies would have to be taken, and1t could not, without being pushed much was just possible that the people might further, be of any advantage to the object. country. Most honourable members would Mr. BEoR said he had been told that his readily believe that if the Government version of what the honourable gentleman pushed forward the present lines they said was a correct one, but as he had been would become more remunerative. That handed a copy of Hansard, he would read had been stated by honourable members what the honourable gentleman said-- before, and it only stood to reason that if a " I would here mention that it is just possi­ short railway did not pay, a long extension ble that new constituencies may be of a different of it might do so. For instance, if a man opinion with regard to trunk lines : I hope such lived 130 miles from Townsville, and had will not be the case, but the fa et remains, that to cart his goods for 100 miles, it was the popular constituencies under the new Act not likely he would tranship them into may be in a much increased proportion, and it a railway truck for the :purpose of iR just possible that the people may object. to having them carried the remaming thirty being taxed simply for the purpose of makmg miles. But supposing he lived 150 railways, which must be for the present unre­ miles from Tovrnsville and a railway :mun~rat,i;e, for the purpose of opening up the was within fifty miles of him, it would mter10r. pay him to have his goods brought the part If that did not express what he had said, of the distance traversed by the railway he did not know what the words could and the rest by the ordinary road. Those mean. He had said that the contention of were extreme cases perhaps, but he had the Attorney-General was, that the populous taken them as an illustration of .his argu­ constituencies were very likely to object to ment. As soon as there was a ra1lway 200 b2ing taxed for making these railways, and miles long, people would come a distance of he could not see any difference between not only thirty miles, but any distance to that statement and the passage he had read. it; but when there were only thirty miles of If the populous constituencies were going railway, it was not worth anyone's while to to object, they were intending to do a very travel a long distance to avail themselves foolish thing. He supposed that the hon­ of that thirty miles. That was, therefore, a ourable gentleman meant by the term strong reason wh;r the railwa;rs should be populous districts, the districts in the [30 JULY.] Contingent Motion. 985 neighbourhood of the coast towns. If There was another marked distinction be­ there was one thing more remarkable than tween the proposals of the honourable another about the effects of railway exten· member for Maranoa and the scheme of the sion into the interior, it was, that it Government. The Premier, as he under­ increased the prosperity of the coast towns. stood him, proposed to go in for a most ex­ If the honourable gentleman would go to the tensive scheme of immigration, as against neighbourhood of Bathurst, Goulburn, and the honourable member for Maranoa, W angaratta, in the other colony, he would whose scheme was not nearly so large. find that the station-holders, who, before For what purpose were the Government the railways were made, were accustomed going to bring the immigrants here ? Was to get their supplies from these towns, it that the immigrants might find, on land­ were now drawing them either from Sydney ing, that there was no employment, and to or Melbourne, thus proving that the trade share in the destitution which could be of the interior upon the making of the seen everywhere? He could adduce num­ railways directly added to the prosperity of bers of instances of men desirous of getting the coast towns at the expense of the inland work, but not able to obtain it. Peo:ele towns. I£ there were any people who had been tempted into this country b:y, the ought to object, it was the people in the extensive railway scheme which had been small towns in the interior, who had been laid before the whole of the English-speaking accustomed to supply the stations with , world as being contemplated by this colony. stores, because, when the railways were If the works embraced in this scheme had made, this custom was likely to cease. been prosecuted and extended, they would Further, if the populous constituencies have seen neither these instances of des­ were going to object to be taxed .for railways titute men seeking for employment, nor the intothllinterior, what would the people of the commercial destitution which also existed. interior say to being taxed for branch lines. If the Government had pushed forward Would they not be much more likely to these works, the people who had been protest against a scheme which was going tempted here would have found employ­ to take the public money to make railways ment. The colony would have had work in small particular localities, and refused for the unemployed, and those they could to use the same public money for the pur­ bring into it. The proper policy was to pose of making railways in the large dis­ show that they were in earnest in their tricts likely to prove beneficial for the public works policy, and to bring men into whol'"e colony? If there was to be an objec­ it when they found they had employment tion to the making of railways out of public for them. More than that, if they brought moneys, it should be to the branch lines them here and found them work they and not the main trunk lines. He would should leave the lands open in the vicinity of make a few observations with respect to the railways in order that the men might the policy of selling the land first and find, when they had earned sufficient, making the railways afterwards, if only to suitable land upon which to settle, and to record his protest against it. It was, in become in the future good and permanent fact, a policy having for its object the colonists. selling of the land first, and the improving Mr. MAcFARLANE (Ipswich) said the of that land afterwards to an enormous honourable member for Bowen had ex· extent, for the benefit of the people who pressed surprise that no one on the Govern­ had purchased. Since he had entered the ment side of the House had risen to reply House he had been trying to find out what to the honourable member for Toowoomba. was the liberal policy of the gentlemen That honourable member did give the House who sat on the Treasury benches, and had one argument against the present Ministry, come to the conclusion that their liberal and in favour of the amendment of the policy was to improve others people's pro­ honourable member £or Maranoa ; but the perty at the public expense. Last Wed­ honourable member for Bowen had sup· nesday, when a motion was brought forward plied no argument in favour of the position by the honourable member for Clermont, he had taken up. The one argument of it appeared that the Government not hav­ the honourable member for Toowoombawas, ing possession of certain land which was that he had always consistently opposed wanted, first improved it, and then made the making of railways by the sale of land. overtures to the owner to buy it, putting The House knew that he had been consis­ themselves in the position of being com­ tent in that respect, and thehonourablemem­ pelled to pay for their own improvements. ber was to be admired for his consistency. That was the rendering he gave of the Whether he was right in opposing the Gov­ liberal policy as adopted by honourable ernment was another question, however. gentlemen opposite-to improve other He intended to vote against the amendment, people's property at the expense of the firstly because it was premature. If the colony. In the case of the railway lanJs, honourable member had waited until the they were going to do it by selling Government had brought forward their the lands first and afterwards improving Loan Bill, he (Mr. Macfarlane) could per­ them for the benefit of the purchasers. ·haps have seen some reason for it, and the 986 Supply- [ASSEMBLY.] Contingent Motion. honourable member might have got more sideration to that question, and found that supporters than he would do now. He in New South Wales no money, nothing looked upon the amendment simply as an substantial, had passed for the land. attempt to forestall the Government in Nothing but cheques passed. The persons their loan policy ; and, viewing it in that wishing to become purchasers of the land light, could not support it. He could not arranged with the banks to honour their support it for the further reason that he cheques ; these cheques were handed to did not think the colony was prepared for the Government, and by them back to the such a large loan as three millions. The banks as Government deposits, so that inhabitants were a mere handful. Refer­ there was nothing but the passing of mere ence had been made by the honourable pieces of paper. When the Government member for Toowoomba to a remark made wished to operate on their supposed deposit by Sir Henry Parkes, that the time had of four millions to carry on public works, come when New South Wales must go the banks applied to the partie~ for. the forward or backward ; but the population money. These parties had not recouped of New South vV ales was very different themselves by profits out of the land, and, to {hat of Queensland, and to burden this consequently, were unable to pay. And colony with another loan of three millions in the Government found, on representations addition to the heavy burden the people had from the merchants and bankers, that if already to bear, would be a step in the wrong they persisted in requiring their deposits, a direction. To his mind the burden of this financial crisis would be caused. The debt would fall upon the producers, and if result was, that they proposed to go into the they deducted from the adult males of the market and borrow three and a-half millions. colony who might be taken to represent If this colony went into the Home market the producers, the persons who produced and floated a loan, the money would be no wealth to the colony, such as Civil Ser­ brought actually into the colony. Therein vants, police, inmates of lunatic asylums lay the difference between their position and gaols, the actual number of producers and that of New South '\V ales, in applying would not exceed 70,000; and taking that for the money supposed to have been received as a fair number, this loan of three millions from land sales. Whether this colony bor­ would add a burden to the producers of rowed one or three millions, there was nothing something like £40 per nead. This was to prevent the money intended to be devoted something serious, and he did not think to immigration and railway plant being left the colony was in a position to incur in England. The balance for prosecuting such a large debt. 'l'he honourable the works co1:1,ld be brought out and distri­ member for Bowen spoke of the policy buted amongst the different banks at in­ of the Government as if thev had no terest, the money to be drawn at certain railway policy. He said, "If they would periods. This money would return to the go ahead." He would like the honourable banks by the ordinary means of circulation, member to point out any period in the which would be provided by the prosecu­ colony's history when railways were going tion of the works and the payment of the ahead more than at present. They had a persons employed on them. It was erro­ great number actually under construction, neous to compare the position of New and others were passe~, and if the Govern­ South Wales with Queensland, as no crisis ment were sure that w1th ·a small loan they could occur here provided they were pre­ would be able to carry on these railways, pared to pay the interest. As regards the going in for another small loan in a year or policy of making railways from the sale of two, it would answer the colony better than land, he found that as far back as 1875, to go in at once for this large loan and when the present Government, or the larger simply to expend one portion on the works number, came into office, the only railway and put another in the banks to find a diffi­ policy they had was the construction of the culty perhaps of getting it out again. He Stanthorpe line, and that by the pressure believed that if the House sanctioned the which was brought to bear on them, they loan of three millions, they would be doing increased their scheme, proposing to carry something which would prove ruinous and it out by the very seductive plan of con­ suicidal to the colony. structing the works from the proceeds of land Mr. Fox said the policy advocated by sales. At first blush that plan seemed very the last speaker might do very well if they seductive, but would not stand investi­ were about to initiate railway~, but they gation. The Government carried their had started railways, and to make them scheme, and created railway reserves after pay, to make anything out of them, they the principle introduced by the Speaker l;llust carry them into the countr_y. Some with regard to the vVestern Railway. He, honourable member had said that the himself, should have given the principle a effect of going in for this loan would trial, so far as the Western Railway was be similar to that experienced by New concerned, because he thought it worthy of South Wales, with rPgard to the large one; but he did not agree that the Govern­ sums of money derived by that colony ment were justified in bringing in fresh from land sales. He had given some con- reserves, such as carried last year in the Supply- [30 JULY.] Contingent Motion. 987

Central and N orlhern di£tricts, until the railway. They also found from an inquiry Western Railway Reserve had a fair trial. made of the Minister for Works, that the The contention of honourable members Bundaberg and Mount Perry line would on his side of the House was, that the plan cost equally as much. Indeed, the ex­ would be a failure, that it would be im­ perience derived from the experiment of possible to make railways from land sales making those lines would deter honourable as proposed by the Government, and that gentleman from making any more branch the ,proper plan was to borrow money to lines, unless they were made out of local make the railways, and afterwards sell taxation. He would now refer to a para­ the land. The fact that the Government graph in which the Premier brought forward had now adopted this plan of borrowing a quotation from the speech of Lord money to make the railways was a Stanley. The Premier had said that the proof to him, that they, themselves, con­ honourable member for Maranoa should sidered their former plan of making the not have brought forward a motion of this lines from the reserves a failure. 'l'here kind at this time, in an expiring Parlia­ was no doubt that it was a failure ment; but the arguments used in that case and a very serious failure, and he could had nothing whatever GO do with the matter not believe that it was right at all to inter­ before this House, as the honourable member fere with the genPral interests until it was for Kennedy clearly pointed out when he proved that doing so would be a success ; said that members of the present House for no interest, whatever it might be, should represented the people of the colony as be disturbed unless it was almost positive fully under universal suffrage as the new that it would conduce to the greater general House would with fifty-five members. intlolrest of the country. The honourable The Attorney-General had complained of the Premier had spoken of the main trunk the honourable member for Maranoa for lines as being an overtax, and of the branch bringing in his motion at this time, and not lines as being met out of the public funds. giving the Government notice that he In that he thought the Prem~er was alto­ intended to come down with some scheme gether wrong. If they took the policy of or policy. But it appeared to him that as the Government in regard to the Local Government had not made provision for Government Bill, they ~ould find that they the carrying on of public works, the hon­ advocated a very different course from that. ourable member would have been too late The Attorney-General also spoke on the if he had allowed the matter to remain any matter in much the same manner, and in­ longer without receiving some definite troduced a clause into the Local Govern­ answer from the Government as to what ment Bill providing that all roads on was to be done. As for Ministers pleading which coaches ran were to be consi­ that they had no notice of this, that was dered main road,s, to remain at the ex­ not so. The honourable member had been pense of the Government. If the same spoken to before as to the necessity of rule were to apply to the railway which bringing in a loan, and he himself had those honourable gentlemen advocated spoken to some of the Ministers on then, the main trunk lines should be at the the subject. In watching the policy public expense, and the branch lines at the of the Government, he found that local expense. The honourable gentleman what had been said on that (the Oppo­ at the head of the Opposition had fore­ sition) side of 1fue House was quite true shadowed something of this kind. He -that when any Bill was brought into alluded to the Local Government Bill, and the House the Government deferred to the said that a sum of money should be pro­ opinion of the Opposition, and invited vided for certain municipalities, which they them to make what proposals they thought should, if they thought proper, spend in proper. The divisions in the House had making branchrailroads. It would be a good b2en in favour of the Opposition. He had thing if a Bill could be introduced where­ taken the trouble of ascertaining what the by municipalities could be induced to adopt divisions had been up to the beginning of this plan, that was, if railroads could be last week, and found that in committee made at little beyond the expense of making there were fifteen divisions for the Govern­ main roads; and that was a subject which ment, and eleven for the Opposition; and he hoped the head of the Opposition would that in divisions in the House, eight were educate the people up to by adopting a for the Government, and six for the Oppo­ system of cheap railways. With regard sition. If the honourable member at the to the present Government, this was a head of the Opposition had not brought in mere term. In all their speeches in this resolution, and the Government had advocacy of these branch lines, it was alloV~ed things to go on as they were doing, asserted that they were to be made the consequence would have been that more at a low cost. But what did they than one of the railways now in progress find P 'l'hat from the plans and speclfica­ would have to be stopped. He had before tions of the extension of the Gympie and him the vote for immigration, and was Maryborough line, it would cost £9,000 a of opinion that if they were to keep mile. That could not be termed a cheap up immigration on the present large 988 Supply- tA.SSEMBLY.] Contingent Motion.

scale, they should keep up the provi­ might form their own conclusions when sion for public works. .And there could he mentioned as a positive fact that, not­ be no more important public works than withstanding the fact that the railway had the completion of the main trunk lines, advanced 214 miles into the interior of the The extension from the southward to Central district, the rate of cartage from ' Cooper's Creek was most important, seeing Rockhampton to Clermont was more than that other colonies were pushing their it originally was when the teams had to railways to the borders of this colony. come down to Rockhampton. He belieyed Nothing showed more the absolute neces­ the honourable member for Port Curtis sity of carrying out the main trunk lines, would bear him out when he said that he and they had an example of it in what was paid more carriage to his station, although going on in New South Wales. The pro­ the railway ran directly towards him, than duction of wool there was largely in he paid originally from Rockhampton. excess of that in Victoria; but the exports These facts spoke for themselves. In his from Victoria were something like twice as own neighbourhood, in 1869, twenty-five much in value as that of New South teams were travelling where now there Wales. Within the last few days a tele­ were 260 teams ; and the rates of carriage gram had appeared in the local papers, had gone up 100 per cent. What better stating that special rates had been made proof could be wanted that railway com­ in Victoria on the North-Eastern Railway munication was required? He had no ob­ to bring down the New South Wales wool. jection to these branch lines if they could If there was this competition between New be made at something like the cost of South Wales and Victoria, what was common roads, or, say, never more than to prevent Queensland, if the South .Aus­ £3,000 a-mile ; but the Government had tralian and New South Wales Governments failed to show that they could do it at any· pushed their railways on to our border, thing like the price. The contract for the taking advantage of the circumstances? Maryborough and Gympie railway was If, by any ·action of the House, the pro­ £4,000, without rolling-stock, rails, or gress of these main trunk lines was delayed plant, and he had no doubt in the world, it the effect would be a very bad one. He would cost quite £8,000 per mile. found the importance of this question was The MINISTER FOR WoRKS : No. brought forward as far back as 1876 by Mr. MolL wRAITH: Yes. the honourable the Premier, who then The MINISTER FOR WoRKS : I say no. said:- Mr. Fox said if it was to cost as much as "It is admitted, I think, on all hands, that seemed to be inevitable, there could be no without railway enterprise, this country cannot honourable member, even though he sat be developed ; that there are no great rivers ; behind the Government, who would not be and that if we are to continue bringing popula­ compelled to object to the system. But if tion into the country on such a scale as we it could be proved that these lines could be have hitherto done, in order to afford them made for a little more than the cost of employment, public works must be established." roads, he would withdraw his objection; In his speech the other evening, the hon­ not that he did not object to them, but ourable the Premier said there was to be a that he thought it was a members' duty to deviation of the line from Roma to Lands­ accept a compromise when it nearly met downs, as proposed by tli'e Trans-contin­ his own view, for no one could expect to ental Expedition. This showed what was carry everything exactly as he would have working in the honourable gentleman's it. Therefore it was the duty of every hon­ mind as to the magnitude of the work to ourable member, if it could be shown that be done ; and yet he could now come for­ the work could be prosecuted in an econo­ ward and say that populous constituencies mical manner, not to oppose the motion of object to the development of these lines. the honourable member for Maranoa. In Notwithstanding the progress of the South­ this course he should certainly support that ern and Western Railway and the pro­ honourable member. He did not think as gress of the Central Railway, it .was a did many honourable members who stated remarkable fact that an increase in carriage that the motion was inopportune ; on the had gone to the extent of 100 per cent. contrary, the honourable member who in­ He mentioned this to show that by the troduced it acted with a great deal of progress of railways in the interior the patience, and it was not until he was amount of work and production of the persuaded by honourable members· on country was increased; and he could have his own side to do something of the no better proof than this increased rate of kind that he adopted the course he carriage, and the constant demand for had pursued ; and doubtless, if he had conveyance. The goods conveyed in adopted the coursB of calling upon the Gov­ these cases must come from the popu­ ernment to state their policy, he would have lous constituencies, must come from and led them into a trap, for it was not to be to the port of Brisbane. The same thought for a moment that they had any principle held good with regard to the policy. The astonished expression visible Central Railwav. Honourable member~ on thA fM1P. of thA hononvRhlP. thA PvP.miAl' Supply- [30 JULY.] Contingent Motion. 989 when the notice of motion was given, the Ministry by proposing a still grander clearly showed that, if he had a policy, that policy of public expenditure than any was the time to have got up and said, "\Ve Ministry had dared to propose, they would are prepared to meet honourable gentlemen lose the confidence the public had reposed now; here is our policy." But why was in them, and would certainly find their this astonishment shown; and why did the position worse than it otherwise would honourable the Premier get up and ask the have been had they remained faithful honourable member for Maranoa what he to those traditions. He was very much meant by his motion ; and why did he ask struck with a remark made by the honour­ that the motion might be deferred for con­ able member for Kennedy, to the effect sideration P He (Mr. Fox) was sure the that the whole policy of the Opposition had Government had no policy, and the bor­ been changed by the voting on a simple rowing of £180,000, as mentioned by the resolution mo>ed by himself. He (Mr. Colonial Treasurer in his Financial State­ Grimes) had been long enough in the House ment, was the outcrop of the motion made to know that the passing of a resolution by the honourable member for Fortitude was very little in itself, except that it might Valley, as to the draining of that portion present a chance of annoying the Ministry, of the city. The House would remember and he had noticed that when such a motion that honourable members expressed dis­ was proposed, the Opposition threw in all approval of the proposal of a grant ; that a their influence ::titd voted in a body. He better and more extensive system of drain­ himself had very little faith in the change age should be adopted. t:ihortly afterwards which had been spoken of, and if the hon­ the Colonial Treasurer proposed this ourable member who made the remark £180,000, saying that it was for the drain­ thought he had persuaded the House age of Fortitude Valley, for works in that there was really a change on his Brisbane, and on the Fitzroy River. Under side of the House, he was greatly mis­ these circumstances, he (.Mr. Fox) would taken. The change was on the hon­ support the leader of the 0 pposition, if he ourable gentleman's part alone. By such should bring his motion to a division. a resolution as had been proposed by Mr. GRniES said the introduction of a the leading members of the Opposition, motion such as that now before the House, the party which was generally supposed to in the way in which it had been introduced, have acted as a break upon extravagant showed him that there was something of public expenditure, seemed to have for­ great importance behind it. It was always saken their old traditions and to be launch­ said, that when a motion was introduced ing into a policy far more extravagant than as an amendment upon a motion for goiug any intimated by their opponents. But on into Supply, it was intended as a direct looking further into the question, something assault on the Treasury benches, and there still more extraordinary appeared. The hon­ was nothing in the present circumstance to ourable the leader of the Opposition could lead the House to suppose that anything not, with his knowledge of Parliamentary else was intended by the leader of the practice, ha>e expected that the resolution, if Opposition when he placed this motion passed, would have furthered the object he upon the paper, than to make a last des­ had in view, if that object were the obtain­ pm·ate attempt to wrest from the present ing of a loan of £3,000,000. It was well Ministry the reins of office previous to a disso­ known that, by the rules of Parliament, if lution, and the election of a new Parliament. the question of Supply were superseded by That was the actual state of affairs, and a motion of this character, it could not be the course adopted was, perhaps, one which reintroduced during this session. The fact had suggested itself as most likely to be of this resolution being passed would, productive of that result; but it was one therefore, simply prevent the House which he believed would in the long run from going again into Committee of tell very unfavourably against the honour­ Supply, and no supplies could be granted able member who introduced it. He could to Her Majesty for this year. Had understand, and could honour, honourable the present Ministry resigned, it would members on the Opposition benches when have been necessary that there should they were true to the traditions which had be a new session of Parliament, be­ been theirs in time past, to restrain as cause whatever would operate against the much as posRible the overweaning extrava­ present Ministry getting supplies would gant expenditure of any popular Ministry, operate also against any other Ministry and he admired the Opposition for the way getting supplies during the same session. in which they had in times 11ast done their As it was, a cerrain time must elapse; utmost to check enormous and extravagant the tenure of office of members elected to expenditure; but when they forsook those this Parliament would have to expire, and traditions, and all that which had given the Ministry could no longer have trans­ them claim to public confidence and sup­ acted the business which was neeE'ssary to port, and sought by the proposition they be done. The honourable member's object, had adopted on the present occasion, therefore, could not have been furthered to take the wind out of the sails of had the resolution been passed. l3ut therq 990 Supply- [ASSEMBLY.] Contingent Motion. would have been other matters for con-· should be. The land of Queensland was sideration had the present Ministry resigned the endowment of the State and of the office and the leader of the Opposition people, and, if alienated in any form, it been called in. The effect of such a state should be alienated in such a form that it of things would have been to have given to should produce some tangible result to the the Opposition party the reins of power people, and be, in the long run, conducive until the new Parliament could have been to the welfare of the colony. If any person called together, which, from the showing wished to ·avail himself of what was of the honourable the leader of the Oppo­ public estate-to take to the individual sition would have been about March next what was the property of the whole­ year. That would be giving to anew Min­ he should be expected to pay what was IStry of whom the House knew nothing in any considered a fair value of that property. way, and to a party who had not given the The farming portion of the community House any outlines of a policy, the adminis­ neither required nor desired to obtain land tration of affairs for from six to nine months at a cheaper rate than their neighbours. without any responsibility to Parliament. They only wanted power to obtain possess­ Such a state of things would be very objec­ ion, and to put them to the best advantage. tionable. He was constrained on the pre­ He did not believe in the clap-trap cry sent occasion to appear as the apologist of that selectors wanted land for a merely the present Government. He had ex­ nominal sum. It was that cry, and the pressed, and should express this evening, his policy founded upon it which had placed dissent from their policy, and also .from the the best lands in the colony in the hands of policy proclaimed by the Opposition. There a very few individuals ; and the advocacy was room enough for a policy distinct from of gentleman like the honourable member either, and such should be the policy of the for Toowoomba had materially facilitated country at the present time when the con­ these transactions. Those men were thus dition of affairs was such as to demand the enabled to lease their lands for an equiva­ serious attention of every member of the lent to the first purchase money, or to House. He would deal first with a few of resell them at an enormous advance on the the matters that had been alleged against first price. Extraordinary ideas seemed the present Ministry, some of which had to be entertained with respect to this pro­ been referred to by the honourable mem­ posed loan of three millions. Any proposi­ ber for Toowoomba. Of all attacks that tion of that kind, from its very boldness could possibly be made, an attack from the and extravagance could be sure to gain rear was the worst, and had the honourable some supporters, and in a time of consider­ member for Toowoomba been on the Oppo­ able commercial depression like the present, sition benches, the attack made by him it was espeeially likely to gain supporters,. would, perhaps, have been more easily re­ on the ground that it would afford tempo­ pelled. He (Mr. Grimes) had been in the rary relief. But the practical result, he .House for two and a-half se!sions, and he thought, would be different. If they ap­ must say that he had heard that hon­ plied the principle this year, they,would ourable member express dissent from have to apply it to a much greater extent next each and every land policy that had year; and, as he hoped to prove, this policy been pursued in the House, so that of obtainingmoneyonloan ought rather to be he had been unable to gather what policy restricted than allowed to proceed at random. the honourable member would have advo­ The remarks of some honourable members cated. He grumbled at every policy pro­ reminded him of the story of the gentleman posed, but if his own ideas, supposing he who directed his servant to dig a hole and had any clear ones, had been put into a bury therein a quantity of rubbish. The concrete form, it was a question whether hole was dug and the rubbish put in, and any other honourable members would agree the rubbish taken out to make the hole lay with his policy. He complained on the one alongside it. The master, seeing this, told hand with the present Government for selling his servant to dig a hole big enough to hold land at so high a price, and he also com­ both the rubbish taken out of the hole and plained that they would not sell the land. the rubbish to be put into it. Some hon­ He (Mr. Grimes) had heard the honourable ourable members seemed to think that the member complain of the Government sell­ policy of the honourable member for :Mara­ ing for 17s. an acre land which he said noa was to be to borrow money, not only to ought to have been retained until railways pay off the whole loan, but the loans that had been built, and then sold for £3 an had preceded it as well-to go on borrow­ acre; and he had heard him, only three or ing until the whole debt was extinguished. four days ago, complain that the Govern­ The interest on the public debt of the ment were selling land to selectors and colony already amounted to about £450,000 putting the high price of 30s. an acre on it. a-year, or nearly one-third of the revenue It was difficult to gather what policy he of the colony. If the resolution were would like to see adopted. An honest and passed, the debt would be immediately in­ business-like man could easily form some creased to over twelve millions, the interest idea of what the land policy of Queensland on which would amount to nearly £600,000, Supply- [30 JULY.] Contingent Motion. 991 or one-hal£ o£ the revenue. The way in stations were worth just as much more as which it was proposed to use this three ld. per pound advance on their wool, while millions, was n~t one which would practi­ facility o£ communication had advantaged cally benefit the colony. A great deal had holders of station property to a far greater been said about reproductive works. But extent. Property alongside railway lines which o£ our public works had been really had increased in value from 50 per cent. to reproductive in the common-sense of the 20J per cent. by the mere fact o£ the rail­ term? They might be reproductive in the way facilities afforded. He knew portions sense that the money spent on them of the colony-notably the portion which had not been blown away in powder he had the honour to represent-which, and shot. But they were not reproduc­ though near Brisbane, had no interests tive in the sense o£ paying interest on their in connection with it. It had no rail­ cost o£ construction, and many years would way, nor even good roads, and for pass before that would be the case. A any good roads to be made in the pOi"tion of the loan was proposed to be future under the provisions of the Ijocal allocated to the extension of railways. Government Bill, they would have to be Probably in no way could money be paid for by the people who used them. invested, if the colony had money to spare, And yet that portion of the colony had to more likely to conduce to the welfare of contribl'lte by taxation tc the maintenance the colony at large. But did the already of the lines o£ railway, which were a direct existing railways return the interest on charge upon the revenue; for the loss to capital expended on them, and pay their the revenue by the maintenance of those working expenses as well? The Commis­ lines was paid by the producers of the sioner for Railways, who was not likely colony. He agreed with the Premier, to err on the vrrong side, said in his report therefore, in the principle that the people that they scarcely paid 2~ per cent., leav­ of the district through which trunk lines ing the other 2~ per cent. a charge on the ran, should pay for them, and although it whole colony, to be obtained from the was not a principle that could fairly be ordinary sources of revenue. Railways applied to branch lines. It had been said, had a tendency to be beneficial to those that the lands held by the pastoral tenants who had money investments in the colony, would become much more valuable to the and not to the colony at large-not to the colony by railway lines passing through. revenue-producing portion of the popula­ them. But he had always found it an ex­ tion. In the debate on the Financial tremely difficult thing to deal with the land Statement, he (Mr. Grimes) pointed out of the 1mstoral tenants. They were very that the persons benefited by a large loan seldom willing to part with. it-and he did expenditure were almost solely the pastoral not blame them for it, so long as they could tenant~ of the Crown. He showed that keep legally-except to their own advantage, the use of the railway line, as far as pro­ and they had managed to obtain a greater duction was concerned, was almost confined portion of the best lands in the colony than to that class of the population, and that any other portion of the community. The mainly the holders of property in the taxation which would be necessitated by interior had been benefited by railway this large loan expenditure, even i£ it was lines, as far as they had yet been extended. all laid out on railways, wr uld not be fairly Taking the line from Dalby to Roma, distributed. Setting aside the fact, that he was informed, on good authority, certain lines were to be paid for out of the that previous to the building o£ that pr0ceeds o£ sales of land-which was using line, the eost of bringing· wool down the property of the whole colony for build­ from Dalby to Brisbane was about 1Os. per ing lines for the benefit of the few­ cwt., or a .little over ld. per lb., and that apart from that source o£ revenue it must during the three months occupied ·by the be made up by the general taxation of the journey, the wool was at the risk of the community. .L'I ow, there were certain dis­ owner, and was sometimes great-ly damaged tricts of the colony where all the public in transit. At present, wool was taken lands had been sold by the Government, charge of by the railway officials atDalby, the proceeds of which had gone into the forwarded to Bri~bane within two days at general revenue, and had been expended in the risk of the department, and the whole paying portion of the interest on the rail­ at a cost of less than ~d. per pound. The ways already constructed. Had this money saving of interest alone was equivalent to not gone there it would probably have been ld. p:~r pound, taking the wool to be worth spent on works in the neighbourhood where 2s. ld. per pound, and the interest payable the land sold was situated. They must on advance 10 per cent. It was £air, look at the fact that if railways were made, therefore, to say that the carriage of wool the interest on the money must be paid from Dalby to Brisb.me had been made tt somehow, either by sales of land, which present of to all the squatters living bryoml was the p'roperty of the whole of the com­ the Dalby terminus of the line, and that munity, or by direct taxation, which the they had been advantaged to the extent of people had to bear. He would point out td. per pound into the bargain. Their that at present there was a class of persons 992 Supply- [ASSEMBLY.] Contingent Motion. who held large properties in the colony and the colony, and he contended that they had enjoyed all the benefits of public expendi­ no right to attempt to stifle the dBvelop­ ture, by which their properties became ment of those re~ources by withdrawing more and more valuable, but who labour which would otherwi~e be devoted were not reached by our present system to productive industries. He made this of taxation. He referred to absentee statement boldly, knowing it to be true:­ ovmers of stations, who contributed During the first few years after the cri~is nothing whatever to the revenue. The los~ of 1866, the foundations of true prosperity to the colony from this he estimated at were laid in this colony, and that prosperity about £250,000 per annum. He contended had continued ever sincE'. It had been that the taxation was not raised evenly and said that this prosperity was due to railway fairly from the people, bt>cause, on looking extension, but on the contrary he believed at the artirles in our tariff, he found those that railways had been more an incubus which were generally consumed by the than anything else. The real cause of it was working man were most heavily taxed. He the settlement of the people on the land, and found that a working man with a family, the establishment of industries, which were earning about 25s. per week, which "\\US carried on with energy and perseverance, about the average throughout the colony, and the progress of mining enterprise. would contribute something over five per He would ask, had the pastoral districts cent. of the whole of hi~ earnings to the gone on increasing to the same extent as revenue for the maintenance of the general other parts of the colony? He found that Government, and the payment of the in­ in order to continue the present rate of pros­ terest of the debt of the colony. A man perity it was necessary to spend about with a family would not be able to do with £1,200,000 of public money next year. less than half a pound of tea; that would con­ The population of the country was only tribute 3d. to the revenue. If he were a 200,000. There was territory enough for smoker, he would have to pay 2d. or 3d. fifty times that number, and were they to more; if he indulged in a glass or two or expect that the spending of public money three glasses of liquor, he would have to alone would go on increasing settlement? It contribute 2d. more; and with ad valorem seemed absurd for honourable members and other duties, the whole would amount opposite to argue that they had confidence to about 1s. 6d. of his earnings. In the face in the resources of the colony when in of this, he would ask, did those who owned order to give employment to immigrants large properties in the colony contribute to they considered it necessary to establish the revenue fairly and in proportion to some grand scheme of public works. If their incomes ? He maintained the.v did they had confidence in the resources of the not. And he would ask further,-"\Vould colony, the :faet that immigrants were the labouring classes of the community brought here to develop its resourC[)S and benefit more, or as much, by increased make it productive and remunerative and loan expenditure as the capitalist? They of benefit to the whole colony, and all knew very well they would not, became the colonies, ought to be quite sufficient. whenever public money was expended, He took it that the argument of honourable giving increased facilities for commu­ members opposite, that in order to main­ nication, there must necessarily be in­ tain prosperity ii was necessary to continue creased productiveness of the property in our present extravagant expenditure of which capitalists invested, and they ought public money, was a sign of n?n-belief in to contribute a fair share to the expendi­ the future of the colony and 1ts great re­ ture which public loans entailed. Had sources. He was ashamed to hear it stated the honourable member for lVIaranoa sug­ that such a course was necessary. If they gested any plan by which the interest on had taken the proper course, and refrained this £3,000,000 was to be paid ? Had he from borrowing to the extent they had, but come down with a magnanimous scheme had left the people themselves to develop and said the pastoral tenants of the Crown, the resources of the colony, they would who would be prinripally benefited by the have seen the community much more pros­ expenditure of this money, would contri­ perous than it was at the present time. bute even a fair share towards it? He (Mr. He was satisfied that the expenditure of Grimes) wondered what honourable gen­ borrowed money simply for the purpose of tlemen who usually sat at his back would giving employment would not really advance say if he were to suggest such a means the prosperity of the colony, but that it of providing the interest this loan would would prove an incubus on every industry entail. He questioned very much whether in it. He thought it was time to consiclC'r they would be found supporting him in the whether it was not better that thev should way they had done on the question. It endeavour to check this expenditure­ had been said that the present Ministry that, instead of spending during the next had no confidence in the resources or the two years at the rate of £1,~00,(00 or future of the country. He (Mr. Grimes) £1,500,000 per annum, they should gradu­ did not know whether they had or not, but ally hold their hands. They had been too he had every confidence in the resourc(ls of extravagant-going too fast-and it was Supply- [30 JULY.] Contingent Motion. 993

time they began gradually to apply a check. already made that the colony had gone quite To do so suddenly would bring commercial far enough in borrowing money. It was disaster, whi«h no one would desire; but quite time that it should stop. Those who it was necessary that something should be were growing up in their midst would have done. If £1,200,000 was required next year to bear the brunt of all the indebtedness in for a population of 200,000, when the popula­ future, and although he did not wish to say tion grew to be 250,000, the expenditure that those who succeeded them should be woulrequire to be £1,500,000 or £1,600,000 far better off than they were, still he to maintain the same rate of prosperity. In thought that an incubus should not be lt'ft 1866 the extent of our expenditure from upon them. He might mention that the loan was £23,0QO, and it had gradu­ present loans had to a great extent been ally increased to £1,200,000 in 1877-8 ; expended upon what were strictly speaking and now honourable members opposite, reproductive works, yet for all that they who were supposed to be the conservatives had brought the State to such a condi­ of the colony, and to look after its interests, tion that it was practically insolvent, upbraided the Government because they and from what he had seen in vari­ were not going into a more vigorous public ous prints, there were several States works policy. When honourable members in America, where practically that was the opposite appeared in their true colours, he the case a1so, and where a State was insol­ felt sympathy for them ; but if they were vent, if repudiation was not indulged in, going to throw off their old policy and go in some steps must be taken to relieve it for a very vigorous policy of public works, from the l.ncubus and burden of debt that he should not only distrust them, but he it would not be able to pay. He contended should reprobate them in everypossible way. that the less taxation this country had to When the question of municipalities bor­ pay the cheaper would she produce, that rowing money came before them the other the less expenditure there was, the better evening, it seemed to be the universal would it be for those who h~d to follow, opinion that it would be unwise to give a as increased taxation must increase the municipality power to borrow more than cost of production of every commodity. five years' revenue; and if they tried the Thus, then, in the interest of futurity colony by that principle, they would find -in the interest o-E those who were that they had borrowed to the extent of growing up to be the future Queens­ halfas much again as that, and that the hon­ land people-he protested against an in­ ourable the leader of the Opposition wished creased taxation, and he hoped that there to increase the debt to nearly ten year's would be sufficient interest taken in the revenue. When the question of the policy matter by the colony generally to show of the Government, and that of the leader that Queensland did not wish to engage in of the Opposition, came to be considered by the expensive policy in which it had the people, he was quite satisfied as to engaged in the past. He did not wish which side they would support. Another to be understood to say that railways were question was the proposed allocation not a great advantage to the country, of this £3,000000 of borrowed money. as he firmly believed they were ; but The honourable member re-ferred to various the principle on which they should be items on which he proposed to expend the undertaken should be this, that they· loan, upon which, in fact, he must expend should not only pay the cost of working, it if he wished to get any support ; and but also nearly the whole of the interest among other items, he put down £350,000 on the cost of construction. He would for branch railways. He did not know go further and say, that where there was a whether there was an understanding be­ prospect of a line paying three out of the tween the honourable member and those five per cent. interest on the amount whom he wished to support him as to the required to construct a line, it would be allocation of that £350,0()0 ; but he must in the interest of the State to make such say that between two Ministries and the a line, for it would not be more than a two sides of the House, i-E it was asked to year or two before it would pay the other which he would give the power of spending two per cent., and after that there would be that money, he should say the present Gov­ a profit to go towards the reduction of ernment, as they had given some idea of taxation. He should vote against the re­ the branch railway lines to be made out of solution of the honourable member for the money they wished to borrow, whilst Maranoa, and he hoped that the people of the honourable gentlemen opposite had, to the colony would see the motion in its use such a term, tried to dangle a bait true light, and would treat it as he believed before honourable members, so as to secure they would. He hoped they would regard the proper amount of support when neces­ it as an extraordinary bait thrown out to sary. He might say at once that no promise catch popularity at the present time, and of a railway under any circumstances, no would also bear in mind that it came from promise of a line, even in which his con­ a party in that House which all along had stituents might be interested, would make been supposed to be inimical to a large him swerve from the statement he had expenditure of money, but which had all 994 Supply- [.ASSEMBLY.] Contingent Motion. of a sudden become converted when there the coming man ; but he was bold to assert was a prospect of a general election. that in the movement the honourable mem­ Mr. FRASER sa.id that honourab'.e mem­ brr had made he had certainly not promoted bers on his side of the House were twitted that object-at least, in the mind of the not long ago with the charge of leaving all public. The honourable member had made the speaking on the present question to a mistake, and had made it, he believed, honourable members opposite ; it appeared, and as stated that evening, through the however, that a change had come, and that pressure brought to bear upon him, more the speakers that evening were on the than by what was dictated by his usual Government side of the House. Had it judgment and prudence. Most honourable not been for the reticence of honourable members who had spoken that eve.ning, and members opposite, he did not think that he on the previous evening, had raised issues should have ventured to address the House. which hacl no connection with the question He might observe that the question now as raised by the honourable leader of the before them, in all its bearings and Opposition. Each honourable member surroundings, was one of the most im­ had raised an issue of his own, and he portant, if not the most important, which should not occupy the time of the House had occupied the attention of the present by going over them. The honourable Parliament. It had excited more real at­ leader of the Opposition had raised this tention and expectation outside of the issue-that the Governmem had failed in House than any question that he ever realising their position, and that they remembered to have been before the public. had not sufficient foresight to provide for That might be owing in a great measure to the requirements of the colony in advance; the well-known character and high reputa­ that they had failed in making provision for tion of the honourable member who moved carrying on the public works already the resolution, and also to the expectation authorised, -as well as for the initiation of on the part of the public, that that honour­ other new and important works. He must able member would give a statesmanlike admit, in common with other honourable exposition of 'his views 'il"hen moving the members on both sides of the House, that, resolution. He was, however, sorry to say in listening to His Excellency's Speech, he that public expectation on that point had was considerably disappointed to find that certainly been doomed to disappointment, works which were promised last session by as the honourable member contented him­ the Government were almost entirely self with giving the House simply a re­ ignored in the Speech, but when the reasons sume of his observations and criticisms assigned were considered, he held that the on the Colonial Trensurer's Financial Government, instead o£ failing in their Statement, He was also bold to assert duty and manifesting a want of confidence that the honourable member had not and courage in the matter, that they done himself that justice of which he showed, under the circumstances what was capable, and had thus sadly dis­ would be regarded by nine-tenths o£ the appointed the expectations formed of community as commendable prudence. him. There might be reasons for the hon­ Did they not anticipate, at that time, ourable member's reticence, and one, he that every fresh telegram would contain presumed, was, that the honourable mem­ the news that England was involved in war ber had felt himself considerably hampered, with Russia, and that the consequence of because, whilst he professed to be simply such a war would perhaps have been influenced by a desire to discuss the railway a general European war such as the policy of the present Government in dealing world had never seen? Supposing such had w1th the question before the House, he had taken place, he would ask hcnourable most unquestionably another object iu members whether it would have been view, and while he was himself reticent, possible for this colony, or any of the other studiously so, on that point, his principal colonies, to obtain mPu or money to carry supporter did not exercise the same precau­ on public works ? They would not, and it tion. The honourable member for Port would have been a fatal mistake-a mistake Curtis at once avowed the object of the which would have brought down upon the motion, and avowed his O"ii"n determination heads of the Ministry, the condemnation to use every possible means within his reach of the people, if they had committed them­ to eject the present Ministry. It was per­ selves to anything of the kind. That he fectly legitimate for the leader of an Opposi­ took to be the sole reason why the Govern­ tion to do that, and also quite legitimate for ment hesitated in the slightest degree to a leader of an Opposition to try to be the bring before the country, in His Excel­ hE'adof a Government; and he was sure there lency's Speech, a proposal for further ex­ was no honourable member who was not pE'nditure, and a further loan. There was, fnlly aware that in many ways the honour. also, as the Coloni~tl Tr<>asurer hacl said, able leader of the Opposition was fitfor such another consideration. They had a loan a position. He might also say that public in the market, but were not aware how it exuectation had for a long time been would takE', and, therefore, it became the directE'd to that honourable gentleman as Government to exE'rcise due prudence. On Supply-'- [30 .JuLY.] Contingent Motion. 995 seeing that the danger had actually passed million at a time ; but be did not say such away, that the loan had been success­ was his intention. Some of the subsequent fully floated, and that it was the opinion speakers said he had committed himself to of the House and the country that that course; but he did nothing of the kind. something further should be undertaken, Looking at the manner in which the the Colonial Treasurer at a very early . honourable member proposed to deal day announced that it was the intention with the loan, he (Mr. Fraser) should of the Government to bring before the simply allude to the question of railways. House a Loan Bill upon a small or limited One would suppose from what had been scale. Sneering comments had been made said in this de bate that the prPsent Govern­ by the Opposition with reference to the ment "~>ere not alive to the importance of expression " small." As had been men­ carrying on the railways under constru('­ tioned that evening, it was certainly a new tion. Such a statement had been made, phasE> for the Qpposition to condemn the but not by the honourable member for Government for the smallness of its contem­ Maranoa, whose remarks were the reverse, plated expenditure. Well, the honourable for he said :- the Colonial Treasurer announced that it "I do not mean to impute to the Govern­ was the intention of the 'Government to ment any intention of stopping the public works bring down a Loan Bill for £1,080,000 ; but, of the colony ; I think myself it has been notwithstanding that the honourable tbe simply miscalculations that has led them into leader of the Opposition knew that such this difficulty. They must as business men be was the intention of the Government, he perfectly well aware of the disasters that would guve notice of his motion for a loan of follow a stoppage of our principal railway works £3,000,000. He did not know that in now in progress." itself there was a very serious objection to The honourable member, it would be seen, the borrowing of such an amount. I£ they imputed to the Government no intention of went on constructing public works, it was resisting the progress of the works now only a question of time when such a sum going on, but with neglecting or failing to would be expended ; but a thing might be make adequate provision for carrying them right in itself and yet the mode of on. Admitting that the Government might doing it might be wrong. It was to have failed, they found that, on recon~ the manner in which the loan was pro­ sideration, they were prepared to make posed and the mode of dealing with it provision for carrying them on. At the that he objected. If the honourable member close of his speech the honourable member for Maranoa had waited -and he might said- fairly have done so-until the Loan Bill of " No doubt this House expires very shortly the Government had been introduced, by effiuxion of time, and I hold myself that all that would have been the proper time to legislation upon important measures should be show where the Government had failed, withheld unt1l we have an appeal to the con­ and to put something forward that was an st-ituencies." improvement. The difference was this : That was a sentiment with which they 1he honourable the leader of the Oppo­ would all agree, and, seeing that the Gov­ sition came forward with a proposal to ernment of the day had made ample pro­ borrow £3,000,000, whilst the Government vision for carrying on the public works proposed to borrow £1,080,000. It had until an appeal to the constituencies could not been attempted to be denied that the be made, the honourable member was not proposal of the Colonial Treasurer was acting consistently with his opinion, anJ ample for all the r.!)quirements of the ought to have deferred his resolution .. colony up to the time that the House would There was no occasion for it. He went on have the opportunity of meeting, and, if to say- necessary, going into the loan market " But I have fully considered the matter, and again. It was objected that it was a bad have come to the conclusion that it is far too thing to go frequently into the loan market, pressing to be delayed. This House is bound and that it would be better to raise a large to take action at the present time, beca-use, if sum at once; but an objection bad been we allow the Parliament to expire by effiuxion m'l.de to the latter proposal, which had not of time, it is in the power of the Government been fairly met. It had been said that it was not to call us together till June next, when all the one of the purposes,of the loan to deposit harm will have taken place." the money with the banks to trade with, How was it possible that this harm should to which the objection had been urged that take place between now and June if the it would be difficult to obtain the money Government went into the market and did when required, and that it would create what they proposed-borrowPd £1,080,000? wliat they were so anxious to avoid-· For once, he maintained the honourable another commercial panic. The honour­ the leader of the Opposition was inconsist­ able member did not meet that objection ent and illogical-a position in which they with his accustomed fairness and boldness, did not often find him. Now let them He said there was no occasion for this­ glance for a moment at the mode in that the money might be borrowed by a which the three millions were to be !J96 Supply- [ASS:gM:BtY.] Contingent Motion.

employed. In round figures, two millions and there were certain conditions to make were to be employed on trunk lines either trunk or branch lines pay. If they and £350,000 on branch lines. The hon­ pushed these trunk lines into the interior ourable member did not tell them what to-morrow; they would never make them these branches were to be, the reason given pay, because the main element which con. being that he wanted to avoid the charge tributed to making rail-ways pay was en­ of offering bribes to certain constituencies tirely absent, and that was, population. The by naming them. Why, this £350,000 honourable member for Toowoomba had dangled before the public for branch lines that evening said that the system of con­ in this way was a greater bait than could be structing railways in America had been a offered by naming the. particular lines. great mistake-a system, namely, of giving It was a bait to every part of the colony lands for construction of lines. The hon· looking out for a branch line. The branch ourable member said that this system led lines proposed by the Government were to an unprecedented amount of gambling; definitely stated. Let them for a moment but as far as that went, he (Mr. Fraser) assume that the honourable member would would point out that it was the abuse and apply his sum to the branch lines named not the use of the system. He should by the Government-the Logan, Fassi­ like to know wl1at system there was that fern, Caboolture, Highfields, and Oxley. had not been abused. Some of them were He was not averse to the construction of old enough to remember Lhe gambling-for trunk lines of railway in this or any other it was nothing less-that took place on the country. He knew they were indispens­ London and Liverpool Exchange in con­ ably necessary for progress; but there nection with railways in Great Britain, were two different modes of progress-they where there was no such arrangement as might progress in such a way as to be able that which existed in America. But it was to bear a burden or so as to overwhelm the a fact that the American system did colony with debt; they might progress in answer, and the construction of railways such a way as to promote the general out of land did answer the purpose for interests of the colony; or in such a direc­ which they were intended. The honourable tion as to enhance and promote the interest member for Kennedy the other evening of one class at the expense of another. explained---and no one could do it better­ This was what he objected to, and if they the whole process of constructing railways assumed that the population of the colony in America by grants of land. He drew a was, in round numbers, 200,000, they now very graphic and tempting picture of what proposed to borrow, according to the hon­ would result if the inhabitants of Queens­ ourable member for Maranoa's proposal, land were to push their railway into the £3,000,000, which would add a debt of £15 interior-into that country of which they to every man, woman, and child in the they had heard such glowing descriptions. colony. But suppose they came down to It must be gratifying to all who had what was proposed to be done for railways. cast their lot in with the prosperity of £2,000,000 were to be employed in the con­ Queensland to find that, notwithstanding struction of trunk lines, to be pushed mto they had practically lost the Darling the interior; and another £350,000 for Downs, they had beyond it a country the construction of branch lines. This infinitely superior. It remained for would be at the rate per head of the popu­ them to see that they should not repeat lation of £1 15s. for branch lines, and the mistake conllerning this country that £10 for trunk lines ; and it would bear they made respecting the Darling Downs. upon the Logan, Fassifern, Highfields, The member for Kennedy, during that Caboolture, and Oxley districts in the glowing picture of the prosperity that following way : The population of those would follow the peopling of this country, districts was in round numbers 77,000, and mentioned that the rents of runs would be they would have to bear an expenditure enhanced. He (Mr. Fraser) would like to of £134,750 for branch lines and £770,000 see the honourable member attempt to for trunk lines. This was about one-third increase the rents of runs by so much as of the population of the colony, and were one penny, supposing the line was to run populous districts, and they would have to into that district to-morrow. If the honour­ bear mainly the payment of interest upon able member insisted upon it he would this £770,000, from which they really and find that he never made a greater mistake truly would derive little or no benefit; in his life, and would soon be very glad to because the works would be mainly for the cut his connection with that side of the benefit of those who occupied remote dis­ House, although, as someone had said, the tricts. This was not fair or just. They leopard had changed his spots. The were told that the pushing out of these honourable member rested his conclusions lines to the interior with vigour and des­ upon what had taken place in America. patch would inaugurate a period of pros­ It could not be denied that they had pushed perity. He admitted that main trunk lines railways into the wilderness with great were found to pay better than branch lines, speed, and they became payable after a as a rule; but circumstances altered cases, time ; but he would read, for the informa. Supply- Contingent Motion. tion of the House, a passage from the of America, not by hundreds, but by evidence of Captain Williamson, a man of thousands, which must necessarily push to great experience in connection with Ameri­ the West, they would see that the con­ can railwayR. That gentleman said, in struction of the trunk railways to the answer to questions from himself (Mr. interior could not be pushed forward too Fraser) :- vigorously or rapidly. But if they were "I suppose that, where there is a prospect of to depend upon population' landing on a railway paying eventually, you would not look these shores -in mere driblets of not to any profit at first-you would not mind for more than five or six thousands a year some time working it at a loss ? That has been from Europe, and taking into consideration done in many cases ; there is scarcely a line in at the same time, the natural increase America on which some portion of the traffic of population-he should like to know has not been carried at a loss at first. when they would be in. a pos~t~on to " I apprehend that the principle that is a p­ avail themselves of the nch prau1es of plicable to private companies would apply with the West, and make trunk lines construc­ greater force where the lines are constructed ted at such an expense remunerative. and run by the Government ? I should think Another remark of the honourable member more so. for Kennedy was to the effect that by a "So you would approve of the principle that vigoro,Is system of immigration, the d~bt would make these lines pay by developing the of the colony per head of the populatiOn industries of the country? Yes, if you will might be reduced by the :rear ~881 from allow me, I will explain. In America we have the present rate of sometlnng hke £54 or no Government lines, but I will take the Illinois £58 per head to £2 less. He (Mr. Fraser) Central Railway, which runs from Chicago to the place described by the late Charles Dickens was of opinion that if the proposed three as Eden; the Government gave that company millions were apportioned at the rate of every alternate mile for thirty miles on either the present debt, it would require an ad­ side of the railway, so that they had a strip of dition of something like 60,000 persons to thirty miles wide; that they immediately put the population to bring the debt down to m to the market at very low rates, and gave the the same proportion per head as at present; settlers very good opportunities of paying for it that was to say, an addition of more than -namely, first a deposit, next 6 per cent inter­ 25 per cent. of the population in something est, and the next year a slight proportion of the like two and a-half years. That was more principal, and so on, running the payment over than had been done in the palmiest days of six years ; they also carried out all the fencing immigration, and he was satisfied it was that the men required, it being downs country, more than could be done if all agencies with plenty of water and coal ; and they also available were employed. At the present took the material for huilcl'lng houses, and even time this colony was competing with the sheds, and put up stations convenient for ship­ ping produce. ]!'or years they ran the line at. a southern colonies, which was not the case loss, but now it goes through a continuation of a few years ago. By the assistance of gardens, the land being all taken up by farmers, members on the Opposition side of the and the line pays well." House, the Government had been en­ abled to put an end to the emi­ If honourable members were prepared to gration lectures in Ireland and Scot­ adopt this principle and push their railways land, an act which he (Mr. Fraser) into that fertile land, where was the popu­ had regretted more than anything else that lation to come from P \Vhere would be the had been done since he had been a member means of improving the land until it became of the House. He was much amused at reproductive? He, for one, would pledge the remark of the honourable member for them that if he -..vas a member of the House, Kennedy that a change had taken place in or a member of the community, he would the policy and views of the Opposition from give them his "\Varmest support if there was the time he went across to them. That the slighest chance of the thing succeeding ; struck him (Mr. Fraser) as somewhat but where was the population to come from P singular, because it appeared ;more li~ely They had not ihem in Queensland, and that a change should take place 111 the Vle'Ys they were not likely to get them at the rate of a single honourable mem~e_r than 111 o£ immigration thl'y were pursuing. On the policy of the whole Oppos1hon. The this subject he would like to give the House reason the honourable member gave was an extract from " Sir Francis Heacl" that that the Opposition voted for him on a reso­ showed that the position Queensland occu­ lution of want of confidence in the pieLl could not be compared to that of Ministry. That reminded him (Mr. Fraser) America. The picture was· drawn in 1866. of an old Tory elector he knew who was "It has been roughly estimated that the popu­ wont to say that if the Tories put up a lation of the United States, like a great wave, is broomstick he would vote for it. If any constantly rolling towards the westward on the member, or even a broomstick, brought land of the Indian, at the rate of over ~0 miles forward a motion of want of confidence, per annum." the whole of the Opposition would be If Queensland had a population land­ found supporting the motion. He would re­ ing on its shores, as upon the shores mind the honourable member that two Suppty- [ASSEMBLY.] Oontin9ent Motion. years ago the then honourable member for laying the trustees under obligations to Aubigny carried a vote for £6,000 for the carry out certain conditions or else resign construction of a railway to Highfields, by their trusteeship. They were not, however, the aid and support of the Opposition. The in that position, but rather in the position present honourable member for Aubjgny of the trustees sent here intrusted with ·thought proper the other evening to move the affairs of the colony, and about to that the vo1e be cancelled actually after render an account of their stewardship. the survey had been completed, and mate­ They had, therefore, no right to impose upon rial for the construction of the line ordered their successors conditions, which might from England. That was also carried by greatly hamper their actions in the interest the assistance of the Opposition. What of the colony. The honourable member was the obvious inference from the fact for Bowen had presented to the House that the Opposition agreed with the then some wonderful theories on the construc­ member on the former occasion and the tion of railways ; but as that honourable present member on the latter P It was not member was not in his place, he would that they had changed their opinion. The not follow his remarks. The hon· House were told the other evening that ourable member for Toowoomba had they only took that course in order to show alluded to Victoria and New South their contempt for the Ministry of the day. Wales. He {Mr. Fraser) thought it ought vV as that the conduct that was to be to be sufficient for the House to be re­ expected from honourable members who minded that New South Wales, with its had been sent here entrusted with the large population, realised wealth and great responsibility of eonducting the affairs of Je1·elonment, was at this moment only in­ the colony P Were they going to sit there debted- at the rate of £22 per head of popu­ for amusement, and for the annoyance of lation ; and that Yictoria, with all its the Ministry of the day P Such a proceed­ wealth and railways, only £29 per head; ing carried its own comment. One of the whilst Queensland, though rich, with un­ reasons he had for voting against the hon­ developed resources and a small population ourable member for Maranoa's resolution of only about 200,000, had a debt of some­ had been very fairly stated by the honour­ thing like £54 to £58 per head, as it might able member himself in his concluding be reckoned. The honourable member for remarks-namely, that a measure of this l'oowoomba had said that it was time to sort, involving the country in such liabilities pause before plunging deeper headlong into ought to be thoroughly considered, and, difficulties. He (Mr. Fraser) regretted as in the natural course of events, Parlia­ that the honourable member for Toowoomba ment would expire shortly by effiuxion of was not in his pl~ce, as he did not like to time, such a question ought to be submitted ·say· anything belnnd anyone's back; but to the constituencies. The honourable he must mention that the honourable mem­ m em her for Kennedy said that no change ber had stated that this question was now of opinion need be expected from the con­ narrowed down to a Queen-street question. stituencies, and that although a Redistri­ I£ there was anything really wearisome in bution Bill had been passed, that Bill was the House, it was when that honourable really not so much a Redistribution Bill as member got up and began to talk in that , an Additional Member's Bill. He would way. He began, continued, and ended, with ask the honourable member whether it Darling Downs. If there were any section was not likely, that considering what had in the colony that had controlled legislation transpired during the last five years, and and dictated, shaped, and sounded the depths the present circumstances of the colony, a of policy, it was the Darling Downs in­ decided change of opinion might have taken fluence in this House. He (Mr. Fraser) place in many constituencies. He ventured was sorry to have to oppose the resolution to say such would be found to be the case, of the honourable member for :fi1:aranoa; and that many constituencies that had re­ and he regretted sincerely, on that hon­ turned members five years ago, would not ourable gentleman's account, that he had return the same members again. It was, brought it forward at that stage. He therefore, nothing but fair that before the could assure the honourable member that country was saddled witb an additional it had produced very unfavourable impres­ debt, raising the total to twelve millions sions in what was called the popular con­ sterling, that the constituencies should stituencies. On a former evening the have a fair opportunity to express their Government had been challenged to appeal opinions on the subject. They had been to the popular constituencies. He (Mr. told that, although the Parliament was an Fraser) was able to assert that if the ques­ expiring one, they had a right to legislate, tion at issue were fairly laid before those and that they occupied a position something constituencies, and the principle fully pre­ like that of a dying man making his will. sented to them, with all the advantnges and He was surprised to hear the honourable disadvantages, they would almost to a man member for Port Curtis using such an oppose the present resolution. Such would analogy. A testator made his will be­ be the case among those in the agricultural queathing what was his own to trustees, interest, for instance, an interest now Supply- [30 JULY.] Contingent Motion. 999.

struggling for subsistence, but one whir•h, of the honourable membar for Maranoa. )n the long run, would prove the back-bone After, howe•er, hearing the speeches from of the country and the perm:ment source the other sid,•, he had no ditlicnlty what­ of its snceess. If the main trunk line evPr in supporting the amendment moved were extended to Rom~, or any other part by that honourable member. Tlwre seemed of the interior, the pastoral tenant would to be a unanimous concurrenee of opinion on. be ab'e to g<'t a bale of wool down to the both sid ;s of the House that a loan must shipping port at a less expense, and in a be raised before next session. The Colonial shorter time than a farmer could get a bag Treasurt•r told th'mon Wednesday that he of maize, at Cl'rtain times of the year. a was going to bt·ing forward a ,loan •or distance of twenty miles to mark,,t. In a £1,030,000; and judgmg from the speech•s part of his (:VIr. Fraser's) electorate, not ot the Premi<'r and the Attorney-General, ten miles out of Ipswich, there were times this small loan would be only the b.·ginning in the year when a farmPr could not get a of many vPry much larger ones. According sin5le bag of maize to the Ipswich mark•t, to the Attorney-General, the objrc·s the unless he carriPd it on his back. Yet those honourable mPmbc'r for Maranoa had in farmers were begrudg<•d a miserable pit­ view bore a great similarity to those to tance of a few hundred pounds. required which the Go~ernment intt'nderl to clevote to put their roads in repair. It was only their own proposed loan. The honour,tble the other day that a farmer complained of member for Mu,ranoa gave a short skPtch the condition of the roads, and a paltry of what he intendtJd to do with his three sum of money of £lfi0 was recommt>nded millions. The first thing he attended to to be placed on the Estimates, to nnke the was immigration, saying that an increased roads passable for him, and hu,ndreds of sum for that purpose was ab~olutely others similarly placed. The man was nec1'ssary, to the extent of £2ll0,000, besi 1es bt>ginning to congratulate himself that by­ the balance in hand, during the next three and-bye he would be able to get to market years; and the Attorney-Genrral, in reply, comparatively ea~ily; but he (Mr. Fraser), said that half-a-million would be nearer the on referring to the Estimates, foun(;l that amount required. The Colm.ial Treasurer the sum had been knocked off, and the poor expres,ed his entire concurrence with: the man would, thereforP, be obligPd to stick honourable memb~r for Maranoa in the in the mud, as on former occasions. He other objects to wh1eh this three-million (Mr. Fraser) had simply to say that he loan was to be devoted. He (Mr. Mac­ was not op1•ost'd to the construction of fm·lam') hoped that the Local GovPrnment trunk railways, but he maintained that Bill would be proclaimed in many districts, while the construction of trunk rail ways and that a very large sum would be re­ was carried on, they were bound to quired in endowments for new municipal­ give every facility they could to the ities. The money would be well spPnt, settlers in the way of branch railways and would save a great deal of bad feeling, goo. l roads; and he also honestly bdieved and prevent infinite trouble to Colonial that it would re far cheaper for the country Treasurers, b,•sides saving a very large to construet braneh lin••s than to go on amount in the votes for roads and bridges. constantly spending large sums of money The Colonial TrPasurer also agreed th'Lt on the making and repairing of roads, water-supply and drainage would absorb a As to whether they would pay, that was large sum. That was, no doubt, a question not the object they had in view in con­ that must be dealt with, and dealt with structing them. Roads did not pay, al­ soon ; a good water-~upply and a well­ though thousands and thousands of pounds considered system of drainage were neces­ were spent on them every year-the return sary to the health and l'omfort of residents b.•ing the faeilitation of communieation in towns, and in pursuit of these obj.·cts with markds. His objection to the present large sums of monPy would have to be resolution wns that it conremplatt>d plung­ spent, and he trustrd that whatever party ing the country too rapidly into debt. If was in power, money would be liberally the amount was only to b.· borrowed at the granted in this direction, undc•r the usual rate of a million a-vear, the Colonial Trea­ rc•strietions as to repayment. Amongst the surer was making -ample provision in that proposals of the honom;able' meu,~er for direction, and he saw no reason why they li aranoa was a sum of £:330,000 fur branch should choos<' the evil they did not know, lines, and the pr0posal enunciated great for the evil of which they had, at any rate, expressions of surnt·ise from the othPr side some knowledge. of the House; tl;ey seemed to think it Mr. MACFARf,ANE (Rockhampton) said extraordinary that sul'h a proposal should that many objections had b:•en taken by come from this side-why he could not tPll. honourable me•11bers on the !VI inisterial side Last year the Premier asked for £300,000 as to the mrwner in which this motion had for branch lines, but not one word was been introduced. The first he saw or heard said as to the sort of branch lines intended of it was a telegram in the Bulletin, and he to be made. In the absPnce of such had, at th2t timP, considPra ble doubt as to information how was it possible to vote ~o whether it was a politic move on the part large a sum ? If they WPre to spend 1878-3 X 1000 Supply- [ASSEMBLY.] Contingent Motion.

£5,000, £6,000, or £7,000 a-mile on branch be utilisPd without roads, and the best, lines tl1ey would very soon involvP the and, indeed, the only way to do so , country in ruin. Speakir g :for himself, he was, to run lines of railway . into it. should be extremely glad to see a system Over and OVPr agnin they had bc•en told by o:f branch lines initiated. They were a honourable memb ·rs oppoRite, that disaster crying want o:f the country, and the sooner would follow pushing railway lines out their engineers adapted themselv"s to into this country. But he could not see it. the wants of the country and went Re knew a great deal more about squatting in for a cheap system o:f railways pursuits than honourable members oppo­ the better. The Premier had told them site; and what was the character of this that he was in posseHsion of such a scht•me country P Like nearly all the good land in -that Mr. Ballard, the engineer of the Australia, it was very badly waterrd. It northPrn line had already given a sketch was a vast expanse of magnificPnt rolling o:f a system o:f cheap railways. From what downs, very badly watered indeed. Before he (\'lr. Macfarlane) had heard of this that could be utilised, what was to be system, he believed it amounted to this, done? Wells and dams had to be made, that Mr. Ballard had said he was able to fencps erech•d, and vPry heavy expC'nditure build a 2-:feet gauge railway, as substantial incurred. In fact, he knPw one sta1ion on as the 3 feet 6 inch gauge railway now in which within the last four years, £&0,000 use, at an average cost of about £3,000 per had bePn spent, and instPad of carrying mile. If this was known to the Premier only 40,000 sheep, as it did five years ago, last year, why did he not then make it it had now 201 •,000, drinking from artifi­ known to the Rouse? had he done so, pro­ cial water supply. That was only a tylle bably some attention would have bem of rwarl:v the whole country. Honourable given to the proposed vote. From what he mPmbers opposite conjured up the most had hPard, the Maryborough and Gympie fearful idt'as of the rt>sults of pushing out line was passed on the distinct understand­ our railwavs, but he contended that the ing that it was to be a chPap linP, and yet bPst thing" that could posRibly happen to it was likely to cost at least £8,000 a mile. all classPs of the community was to afford It was too late to do anything with that means for utilising this vast back country. line now, but he hoped the Minister for By doing so, farmers would get a better Works, before accepting tenders :for the market for thPir produce, the greatest Bundaberg and Mount Perry line, would benefit would arise to the coast towns, and see that it should be a cheap line. It "1\""ould the colony generally. They had not yet be flinging monPy away to spend £6,000 or developed their wheat-growing faeilitics to £7,000 a mile on such a line as that. With such an extent as to be able to export rPgard to the proposed loan, thP diff,•rence wheat, but ships coming to our ports must between the two sides of the Rouse was have cargo; the best they could get was one of degree, not of principle. ThP argu­ wool, and every additional bale of wool ment of the honourable member :for Mara­ clipprd in the country, did good to the noa was that since you must go in for inhabitants of the towns and every selector a loan, it would be better to name a sum in it also. To show the disaster that had that would carry them over the next three followed from pushing our railways into years. Re did not propose to raise it in the country, hP w0uld point out some facts one large sum, and he (Mr. Macfarlane) from a paper furnished by the honourable agreed with him therP, :for he knPw very the Colonial Treasurer with his Finaneial well what thE' result would be of lodging StatPment. On the southern railway line three millions in the banks. It would in 1872, thPre were 180 miles opPn for make things very ph•asant fur a short time, traffic, and the net earnings amounted to but the period of increaRed stringency £i10,90,j. ; and for the ten months of 1877-8, must necessarily come. By raising the with 260 milPs open, the net earnings wrre money as it was required, no such disas­ £59,533. That did not look like dis­ trous results would ensue. There was aster. And, it must be reme>mbPred, that some force in the Colonial Trea~urer's this linP had to pass a lot of bad country, objections to· this plan ; but it seem(•d to between Dalby and Roma, and had not yet him to have the fewer evils of the two. real"hed the good country, so that not a The great object was trunk lines of rarlway. fifth part of the benefits that will flow If tht>y were to believe honourable mPm­ from that railway had yet been realiBed. bers on the other side, nothing but dis­ The nPxt table was still more convincing. aster would follow if these were carried It was in rderenre to the Northern, or, as out. Re was, however, astonislwd to hear it ought to be callPd, the CPntral railway. such views expressed. The colony had a In 1872 there were thirty miles opt'n, and vast estate in the West, which had b··en a loss aC'crurd of £1.411 17s. lld. In 1874, taken up through its lt>ngth and brPadth with forty-four miles open, the loss had by sheep and cattle stations, and the gone down to £H1 19s. 4d. In 1875-6, quality of the land was said by those with sixty-two miles open, the net earnings who had seen it to be unsurpassed in were over £3,000. In 1876-7 the net earn­ the colony. This vast estate could not ings were £11,000 ; and for the ten months Supply- [30 JutY.] Oontin,gent Motion. 1001

of 1877-8, with-the rPturn ~aid, 140 miles b•1d railway rrserve system was to be done opPn, but that wa~ wrong, bt'cause the line away with, and he was sorry to hear that to the l'omPt was only open for traffic it was to be rPvived, and that that battle about two month~ ago-the nPt earnings would ha Ye to be fought over again. What WPre £14,113. That ~howed that every did this systt>m mean? It meant-taking mi'e that had bt•t•n opened inrr ·ased the the central line with which he was b,·st n· t earnings. A great dPnl had bt•en said acquainh•d-that they mli>tt jump over the abuut the bnd country to be gone through, bad country between Emerald Do VI ns and no doubt it was >Pry unfortunate and Barcaldine Downs, proclaim vast that there was some very barren coun­ reserves out vY est, put it up in larg<' tracts, try between the roast and the bnck and sPll it by auction. That was the same as country that had to be crossed. But sa~·ing to every lessee, "Give us your money from all he knew - and he \\'as en­ and we will not take your land from you." titled to speak with some authority on They sold undt-r compulsion, as it IYere, this subject, bPcause he \Vas chairman of aud all they got for the land sold the sub-committee appointed by the Rot):­ nPar Roma was the magnificent sum of hnmpton Chamber of Co!llmerce to in­ 17s. pt•r acre, and they touk that to quire into the extension of the railway make a railway out of it. It appearPd towards Barf'aldine Downs, and was to him that this was a pPrfectly mon­ ob'igt·d to look vt·ry closPly into the facts strous systPm, alld it was one which he of the casP-he was certain that by the hoped the House would never consent to. time the railwray was carried to Barf'aldine They compPlled people to take up large Downs it would p:ly not only working ex­ e~tates. If they allow(·d them to become penses, but the whole of the intPrt•st, whieh possessed of large landed estates in a simply mPant working off about £2,000,000 natural way from the investment of capital, from the dt'bt of the colony. Look at he was not afraid of it; but before they 1\iverina! H was a purt>ly pastoral coun­ went into forcing people into large landf'd try; but look at the drect it had had on the estates they should look at what the effPct property of Melbourne. The pt•ople of of a siwilar system h;,d been in the other Adelaide and of New South vYales were now colonies. In Victoria, by a bad system of land strnining t'very lll'rve to get a share of the laws. they had crt>atedlarge landt>d pstatt•s, traffic of that. country; and yet Rivt'rina and what wa;; the consequence? A social was not half the country this colony had war. New Sou1 h vYalts had con,pelled out west. It was of such extent that it the Ri•erina settlers to buy t·norn ously. would require two or three lines to tap it. They did not want to buy, and, as he had He objt·cted to thP Ministerial programme bPen told by one of them-" We havl' had in referpm·e to these main trunk lint's. Tlwy to mortgag-e the >Pry shirts off our backs l1ad been told by the Tn·asurer that to buy lar:d." \Vue tht•y going to per­ the GovPrnment intt>nded to give tlwm pP!uate such a systtm as that? He an instalment of twl'nty mill's; but the hop•·d not. There was no nPeessity for it. Ministf'r for vYorks had mad<" it a little Under the l'astoral Occupation ·Act of b·tter by saying thPy would give twenty­ l1'6U ar.d the Crown Lands Alienation Act of s.·ven. But that was a miserable rate of 1876, thPre were antp!e powt'rs to sell all prr>gn•ss. Tl1ey had a very eompetent tht> lar.d that was nePcled. He for one staff, that was ab!e, without going to any did not wish-he knew it VIas not po~sible fur•hPr expPnse, to construd fifty milPs of -to increase our de bit balance, if the rail VI ay, a1.d it was false Pconomy to cramp inkrest was to be raised by further them down to tweHty-sPven. He agrePd taxation; but he maintained that it with the Pn•mier tlmt the Northern and was quite IJO£sible to makl' the lands Ct>ntrallines should go out west, but with of the colony pay all the interest rrgnrd to thl' direction the Routht>rn line that was due. It could easily be done should take when it reachl'd Roma, he was without any su!'h large forced sales of land. not going to say how it should go; but He must say he had been very much unless it was very conclusively shown from anmsrd by tlw assertions made in the an exhaustive survey of the whole colony course of the debate, that all the lib .. rality to the contrary, he thought the lines should was on the Government side of the House. not convergP; that othPr things being He could not see that at all. It was equal thPy ought to havP an equal distance wonderful how men dt·ridl'd, and what on bPtween tht•m. He beliencl they \Yould earth entitled honourable men:bers opposite do most good that way for the whole to elaim to be more liberal than honourable country. The great point in tht> consiclPr­ memb.·rs on the Opp•·sition he could not ation of the qupstion was: How was the understand. It V\·as certainly not in their loan to bl' pnid off P They WPre told by the lPgislation, as that had been, so far ~s the I'remi<·r thut it "as to bt" paid by the rail­ land was conePrned, a very great failure. way rest>rve systPm, or by some scht>me He thought, on the whole, the mea>ure that he did not prcpPrly explain, by whieh . with the h·west faults in it was pas>ed by the territory benefited V\ ou1d be rPsponsible. his side o£ the House, nan,ely, the Laud He (Mr. Marfarlane) was in hopes this Act of 1868-an Act which had been the 1002 Supply- [ASSEMBLY.] Contingent Motion.

basis of all others. He should heartily of the motion was given on the very day support the motion of the honourable that telegraphic news arrived, that war was member for Maranoa, as he bdieved it averted, which was the time when the Gov­ would result in a liberal public works ernment could see a prospect of a loan policy. What, he would ask, was the value being successfully floated at Home. No of this great country unless they could run doubt the previous loan had been most rail ways into the interior, and make branch successfully floated, and for that reason lines wherever there appt>ared to be a the honourable member should have asked possibility of their paying, and, also, by a the Government for their views on the vigorous carrying out of the deepening of the question. The honourable membPr for harbours and rivers to enable people when Rockhampton suggested that there was a they got their produce to a town to speedily hesitation on the part of the Government and safely get it out of it? He would not in immediately carrying out great trunk detain the House longer, but would very lines throughout the colony. He had not heartily support the resolution of the hon­ heard himself any hesitation of that kind, ourable member for Maranoa. nor had he heard that there would be any Mr. MuRPHY said tha.t ever sinoe he had delay ; on the contrary, he had been led to been in the House he had been one of those believe that there would be every despatch who were prepared to sanction any reason­ given to the carrying out of those great able expenditure that was necessary for the trunk lines into the interior. The hon· extension of railways in the colony, and he ourable member had very properly should never be behind in giving his vote shown the great advantage of opening in favour of any reasonable loan for such up the vast interior of the colony by works. It seemed to him from the speech trunk lines, and he did not suppose that of the honourable member who had ary honourable member would oppose just sat down, and from the speeches of such a proposition. Certainly the hon­ other honourable members, that the issue ourable me mher for Bulimba seemed rather between the two sides of the Hou.;:e was timid of their being pushed on ; but almost the same. One side suggested that he did not think that anyone would echo a loan of three millions should be negotiated, the honourable member's fears. Some­ one million of which would be sufficient thing had been said about the Railway for present purposes, and the other, the Reserves .A.ct ; it had been attacked by Government, side seemed to think that one honourable members on both sides, and it million would be sufficient until next yt>ar, had been said that the system had not been when the character of the public works a success. and never would be ; but he be· policy the>y intended to introduce would lieved in the system of setting apart large necessitate a far larger loan than was pro­ reserves of land for paying for railways. posed by the honourable member for Mara­ He had never understood from the Govern­ noa. He should have been glad to have ment that the lands would be sold first, and seen that honourable member take a bold the railways made afterwards, but that stand, propose that a loan of three millions the reserves would be set aside as an ulti­ should be made at once, and take the mate security, so that capitalists might opinion of the House on the subject; but know that there were lands set apart which now the whole thing was narrowed to this, could not be sold except for the repayment that both sides proposed a loan of one mil­ of the loan; that would form a fund, in fact. lion for the present year, but the policy of That had always been his opinion, although the Government next year would render it had been stated--notably ~o by the hon­ necessary a larger loan than was pro­ ourablememberforToowoomba, that bythe posed by the honourable member. He large reserves, selectors had been shut out, was prepared to support the Govern­ and that the lands had been sold in large ment, as it appeared to him that blocks instead of being sold in a mannPr their principles were progressive, more so which would bring the best price and pro­ than on the other side. He should cer­ mote settlement. Now, the selectors to tainly have expected from the fair play whom the honourable member referred which the honourable member had always had certain conditions to perform, which shown to his opponents, that he would have they performed sometimes, and then sold asked the Government what their inten­ their land to the large capitalist. In many tions were with regard to introducing a loan; cases facilities were given to the selector but that was not done, and the Govern­ to comply with the conditions so that he ment had not had an opportunity of stating might sell out at a large sum afterwards what they intended to do. If the honour­ to the capitalist. He thought the best way able member had done that, and the Gov­ of dealing with such lands so as to test ernment had shown the slightest hesitation the bona fides of settlement would be to in giving in reply a most vigorous policy, give a lease for fifty or ninety-nine years, both now and in the future they should with no power of alienation ; if that was certainly riot have had his support. The done there would perhaps not be so m:pared to trunk lines into the interior, would be ac­ support and encourage bond fide settlement, complished. He believed in the ultimate and give evt>ry facility for the proper acqui­ extension of the Charters Towers line in sition of the public lands of the country. the direction of the splendid Diamantina When they looked at the Western Railway country, feeling assured that it would prove Reserve, they saw what been done there. to be one of the best paying in the land. He The lands had been sold at a sum which further believed in the extension of the must be considered an advance upon what great Centra.! line from Rockhampton, could have been obtained by free selection, and of the Western Railway from Roma and a railway had been made from Dalby towards the magnificent country of Coopers' to Roma at a small expense to the State. Creek. By means of these and the line from He was not aware that much of that land South Australia, to which reference had been would have been taken for purposes of made, they would yet be able, he hoped, to bona fide settlement if there had been no traverse the whole of the vast interior. It reserve. He believed that a great deal was because he could not see that the Gov­ would have been taken up for speculative ernment had been behind-hand in the purposes. It must be admitted that the matter of railway construction, or that the result of theWestern Railway Reserve Act member for Maranoa had made out a good had been the construction of a large extent case for displacing them from office, that of railway for "a comparatively small sum he could not give his support to the amend­ of money from the public funds ; and, to ment. He believed that the Government test the future by the past, they should would give effect to the railway extensions pause before passing the wholesale con­ to which he had referred, and he would demnation upon the Railway Reserves Act support them. If he should have the honour embodied in the honourable member forMa­ of holding a seat in the next Parliament, ranoa' s resolution. From what had bP en said, and should find that they did not, they by some honourable members, in relation to would not have his support. what had followed from the construction of Mr. MoREHEAD said, in reference to a railways, one would almost hesitate to statement made by the honourable member extend them. The honourable member for for Cook, when speaking in favour of N ormanby had said, that although the making railways from railway reserves, CPntral Railway had 1een extendt'd one that the lenders of money to the State hundred miles in the interior, the carriage would have the inducement of knowing from Clermont to the railway was nearly that their loans were secured by the lands as much as it was formerly for the whole within the reserves-that he took it that distance. If that was an argument it any public debtor was secured upon the land would hold good against going in for rail­ of the whole country, and, further, that he ways ; it would be in favour of the stop­ looked to the revenue and not to the unre­ page of railways. The probabilities, how­ munerative lands. The chief reason why ever, were that the high rate of carriage he should support the motion of the hon­ was brought about by the drought, that ourable member for Maranoa, irrespective the teamster's ~tock were unable to work, of his feeling as to the effeteness of the and it became necessary to stop carrying present Administration, was on this very or charge a large sum to keep their horse~ railway reserves question. It would be on the way. It was either that, or that generally admitted that the Government things were so prosperous in the dis­ had abandoned that principle of construct­ trict that the m<'n could employ their ing railways which they made such a main teams more profitably in some other way. point of a few sessions ago. He remem­ :t-; obody in the House would be found a bPred the present Minister for Works greater advocate for the extension of rail ways making one of the strongest speeches in than he. Attention had been drawn to a state­ the House against the adoption of the ment of the Premier that the construction of railway reserves policy, but where did they the main trunk lines must be by some form see him now? which would make the payment of the The MINISTER FOR LANDS : Look at interest fall more especially upon those your leader and the Western Railway persons for whose benefit the lines were reserve. made. He presumed that what was meant Mr. MoREHEAD said that he found from by that statement was, some principle which H ansard that at any rate there was one would not press too heavily upon the honourable member in the House "in people of the coast districts. That was whom there was no variableness and certainly a matter deserving of the fullest shadow of turning." This honourable consideration. The extension of these member had said in the session of 1875, in branch and trunk lines had his full sym­ reference to this question of railway pathy and support, and he should at all reserves- times be prepared to do justice to the " What they wanted was to bring fol'eign claims of all parts of the colony for rail- capital into the colony and not to abstract it 1004 Supply- [ASSEMBLY.] Oontingent Motion.

from the banks and other moneyed institutions. wrPtched ownPrs h<•cl these pre-emptives He said that if he were a capitalist that there dotted over Pach b:oek, and they were com­ had been no finer squatter's Bill ever put on P• lied to connect tit em at a price three the table of the House than thts. It was times tlH' amount of the original eost, or had purp,Jy a squatting Bill-a Bill which would to see the vacancy left opl·n to conditional allow the squatters to pick the eyes out of the purchase. The Government had entirdy country if it became law, and he was p<'r· abandoned their position in refprence to fectly astonished that a Liberal Government of which the honourable and re<'umbeut l:'remier railway construction, and ought to be im­ was the head should h:we brought in such a p2aehed. The most important worl(s in measure.'' a colony, like this, were railway works, and, if they were to have mixed systems of He (;\1r Morehead) went on to point out payment, the sooner the Government WPre that a Liberal Government, by the measure put out the better. The honourable mem­ then before the House, instead of settling ber for Maranoa, had been consistent the people upon the land, would throw the throughout, advocating fro;n the first the land into the hands of the capitalists. construetion of thesl' lines b.v loan, leaviLg This had been proved since by the action the great public e~tate to bJ dealt with of the Government in seizing the occu­ hereufter. The auction syst,•m of the pants of the runs by the throats, as Govt>rnment was run to 1m extremP, for it were, and eompelling them to buy friPndly political 1•urposps in some c.1scs; portions of their holdings. He said ad­ for damagiug political purposes in othPrs, VIsedly that this had b,•en done with and that was a dangerous power to respect to the then occupants, but present place in the hands of any Ministry. owners, of Mount Abundance run, who The PremiPr had not me<'ted out justice to were a company formed to lend money and all. His acts were incongruous. There was assist p _·ople to get on in this and the other a cliscrc>pancy between the vV estern Hail­ colonies. 'l'hq had b,,en comp ·llPd to buy way Heserves Al't, and th,, Railway Re­ in self-defenee, and £WJ,000, which would serves Ad, whieh had led to a large otherwise have been floating capital, had qu>mtity of land b ·ing tak,•n up at a less been lock•d up. ·The next run, of Rocky­ price than other land a• joining. vVlu·n bank, by were almost unworkab e, what flocks of the poor man. He ( ~Lr. More­ were they to do? ·when they found the head) was present at the salP, and said to Act of lt376 had done great injury to the the Under Secretary for Lands, in reply settlement of tlw colony, it was fully time to an inquiry whetLer he (Mr. More­ the GoYPrnment were rt>moved to make head) was not going to buy, "You are place for bettt•r men wher0ver they might not going to gt•t many bids. We don't be found. And wh<·th,•r they wer<· found pretend to be monopolists. VVe don't wish on that side of tlte House or < n this, h<· did to buy und,•r the feet of our neighbours. not care one straw. Of eour;e he slwu d We buug11t in sdf·defence." That was prefc"r to see the honour,, ble uwwbeJ' for the position of the company now owning M.aranoa at the head of the Gov,•rmnPnt, Mount Abundance run. They would b.·cause he bdie1 eel that lwnuurabie gentle­ rather have remained graziers until the man was the most capable man in the land could have been settl,·d upon by House, and would eommand, if not univer­ people with small means ; but the result of sal support, at }Past a large majority, the Railway Heserves principle was that on his side of the House. But the presPnt th,•y were foreed to buy 100,000 acres, Government, day after day, submitted to which was locked up for the present at ddeat after d,·feat, and took no notice of any rate. They might cut it up and ~ell it them except it was to smile at th,•m; 1he hereafter at a profit; at present, he knew Minister for Works 1-ms a\ ways a pleasant that great damage had been done to the party to attark, and what did he say of his country by the ali,·nation of that run, an,l quondam colll'ague about this Yery Rail· that it had not been sought by the p1·esent wny Bill? According to Hansard, he own,·rs. An immense amount of the said that he should want some bc•tter names floating capital of the colony had been than those of tht> pr.·sent l\linistry for his absorbed by the way in which the guarantees. This was said by the honour­ Government had forced the lands into the able gentlt•man, who was Vc'l'Y strong in market. They foreed them in at first opposition but very weak in government. at prices which prevented all compe­ As to the policy of selling the wnds in tlte tition, and coutpelled the owners of land to VI ay in wLwh they had been sold, hnd the buy or go out. A point had been made honourable the Premier comidered the with reference to the pre-emptive power the position in which .1\ew South Wales had own, rs possessed, before th,, lan.ls were land< cl itstlf, and what might be the put up to audion; but those pre-emptive re~ult of folio\\ ing out thP policy of rights, from the very cir,- Uxeeption perhaps of theWest ern therefore, look with a large amount of sus­ lsent the railway policy generally ; but the time GovernmPnt. JYl embers on the Govern­ was most inopportune for the extension of ment side of the House came in for an th,s policy in such a manner as that pro­ unqualified share of abuse for supporting posed, and the people ofthe colony had a just a railway policy whif•h was persistPntly claim to an expenditure on branch and loop dt•nouneed as one which was to ruin the lines-the lines upon which thq had alrt"ady country. Memb<'rs who supported the spent a large sum of money, anlll whwh GovernmPnt were charged with being abject the people were heavily taxed to support. supportt·rs, and by none more than by the The country had a perft'ct right to demand honourable m em bPr for the vV arr. go. That that a good comprehensive system of branch honourable member almost exhausted his lines should be introduced, instead of which copious voeabulary in abusing Government a scheme had been brought forward involv­ supportPrs, and now, after in this manner ing tht' expenditure of a very largl' sum of wa,hing their bands with imi,ible soap in money to construct lines L undred of milt•s imperceptible water, they came down and into what was called the never-never were prepared to soil their political fingers country. It was, no doubt, very grand 1006 Supply- [ASSEMBLY.] Contingent Motion,

country, and would be of great value when In that rPspect they found that the pro­ made available for settlenwnt. The ques­ posal of the Government and that of the tion was, what would produce the' settle­ Opposition party approached one another ment P A. great deal of fuss had been very nearly. The lt>ader of the Opposition made by memb('rS Oll both sides of the proposed to ask the sanction of the House House about the lines pl·oducing settlement; to a loan of three millions ; but he told but he (:\fr. Kidgell) could say that those them in almost the same breath that it ' grand trunk lines would not produce it. would only be necessary to borrow .a mil­ People would not leave the coast districts, lion at. a tirnP. If such were the case, he which were still only sparsely populated, (}fr. Kidgell) held that it was unnecC'ssary to go into the interior, at least for years to to get the sanction of a dying Parliament to come.. The lines would make the land very borrow three times the amount. The valu&ble, and increase the already large people of the colony surely had a right to fortun('s of some of the capitalists, many express their opinion; and why should of whom deserved very little sympathy, as they be deprived of that power, and they extracted all they could from the the incoming Parliament committed to millions of acres held by them at a a course that might possibly be op­ nominal price, and were frequently posed to their ideas of what was good for absentees. 1-'uch men had no right to be the country? The constituencit•s should consid,ered before the farmers and small have an opportunity of expressing an ad­ graziers, who work•d hard from year to verse opinion if they wished to do so. year, struggling to improve their own con­ Parliament should not be committed to dition and that of the colony. · Those men carry out a policy whit·h the country did were to be quietly shunted 011 one sid,•, not believe in; and that was one reason and the present taxation was to bt• increased, why the prPsent motion ought not to be in order that trunk lines might be con­ c:trried. The honourable member for structed. He felt it to be his duty to Normanby had stated that the popu­ oppose the motion of the honourable mem­ lous constituencies would not object ber for Maranoa, at all events at this stage, to main trunk lines. He (:\fr. Kid­ as he considered it was unwise, ill-advised, gel\) did not suppose that any section of and inopportune to bring such a motion in the people of the colony would object to at this time. The Mary borough and Gym pie them; but they would object to trunk railway had been alluded to by some hon­ lines being made everything and branch ourable members, and erroneous opinions lines nothing. The policy of the Govern­ sPemed to exist as to its probable cost. ment was to consolidate their present rail­ He trusted the Minister for Works would way policy, and make those lines which were be in his place to-night to set at rest beginning to pay, pay better still. The entirely any doubts on that subject. That honourable member also said he was quite ho tourable gentleman had in his possession prepared to give his support to the con­ statistirs to prove conclmively that the SLrurtion of branch lines, supposing thPy Maryborough and Gympie railway, so far as did not cost more than ordinary roads. it had been proceeded with, was not one of That was a mild way of giving support, the most expensive lines in the country, but because linPs which would not cost more would prove to be uncler the average cost, than ordinary roads would be simply toys, when the circumstances were taken into con­ and perfectly useless. He (Mr. Kidgell) sideration that a deep river would have to regretted he could not agree with the hon­ ba crossed by an expensive· bridge. That ourable membJr for Maranoa on his esti­ fact would go a long way towards explain­ mate of low-cost railways, and he could ing why the first sec~ion wonld involve the not help thinking the honourable gentle­ expenditure of a large sum of money. He man was not. quite so earnPst in that portion held that if the pres.'nt railway poli,·y was of his programme as he was in that relating to be gone on with, those who had initinted, to trunk lines. He proposed to give a fought for, and successfully carrit>d it very cheap and not very useful line, on through so far, had not yet forfeited their which the rate of speed would be from right to the confidence of the Honse. He four to eight miles an hour. If they did not in all re~pei'ts agree with the con­ wpre to l1ave branch lines at all thPy duct of the Government. Un the contrary, would be part and parcel of the presPnt he found fault with them for not carrying system, and common Sl'nse would suggest out their scheme with more vigour, as if that they should be all of the same g:mge. they really believed in it; but he would It would be going to the other extrt'me to gi,·e them the creait of b.·ing inclined to bui:d cheap railways whieh would very err on the side of moderation rather than likely cost the country a large amount of of prodigality. In the condition of the money and be little better than roads. He country it was far b.•tter, if a mi~take We're should be sorry to Sl'e the motion carried made, that it should be on the side of mode­ b,•cause he thought it was inadvisable and ration. Another quPstion, VI rapped up in the unjust to the country. He trusted the motion before the House, was the qu<'stion present Ministry would continue to carry ()£ how much it was desirable to borrow ? out their railway policy and would carry it Suppiy- [30 jULY.] Cont-ingent Motion. 1007

on with a little more vigour than they had he (Mr. McLean) had. He beliewd that done hitherto. He was not prep'lred to honourable member was as capable1s any ad'mit that they had failed in ca.rying out other honourable member in the HotsP, if the trust the country had reposed in them; not more eapable, of carrying on the 1ffairs and therefore he did not see any reason for of the country. But he was only one withdrawing his confidence from the honourable member. There were cthers Ministry, who had fought hard for two whom he (Mr. McLean) would be qtite as sessions to initiate the system of railways willing to entrust with the reins of power which the Opposition now declared was to-night if necPssary; but there weY.!others desirable to the country. he could have no confidence in, and he could Mr. McLEAN said, since the leader of have no confidence in any Ministry· t~at the Opposition had delivered his speech on could be formed from that side of !;,1.~ the motion now before the House, honour­ House. ThereforP, his vote would be given able members had learned something con­ in the interest of the present occupants of siderable of the policy which would the Treasury benches. A charge had been regulate the Opposition shoul,d they happen brought against the present Government to get into power at the present time. that they had departed from their policy Various reasons had been assigned why in connection with the l'tailway Reserves such a motion should be tabl,•d and why it Hill. It had alwa:I'S bePn asserted should be carried. The honourable mem­ by the members of the Opposition that b,•r for Port Curtis first assigned, as a the policy of the GovernmPnt was to sell reason, that he wished t•) see the present the lands nf the colony, and to construct occups,nts of the Treasury benches turned railways with tite proceeds of those sales. out of office for the simple reason, as he That ViPW had nevPr been entertained by stated, that the Government was the most him or by any solitar,y member on that corrupt one that had occupiPd those side of the HousP. The policy of the benchPs, and that he had no faith whatever gentlemen in Opposition had been to go in their administration. He (Mr. McLean) into the English market and borrow money had had the honour of occupying a seat in for thP purpose of constructing railways ; the Hou,e for three sPssions, and had been but they did not say how the interest was a consistent follower of the Government ; to be paid. They had introfluced a motion but if he had considered that they were a that three millions should be borrowed; but corrupt Government, they would never among all the honourable m"embers who have received his support, nor would he had spoken on the subject, not one-not have occupied a seat on the same side of even the leader of the Opposition himself­ the House with them. There was a had explain~d to the House by whatmeans saying- it was proposed to meet the interest on " Suspicion ever haunt.s the guilty mind." that three millions. The assprtion had been made that the prc>sent Government which might very appropriately come to had dt'parted from their policy in connec­ the front in connection with· that assertion. tion with the Hailway Reserves Bill. In It was a very easy thing to make asser­ reply to that, he would quote what the tions, but very fliilicult sometimes to prove Premier said when that Bill was before the them. The Estimates now bPfore the House. After Pxplaining the principlt>s of House had been obstructed on several the \Vestt•rn Railway Reserves Bill, and occasions for the purpose of trying to bring the amount of money proposed to be proof against the Government that they borrowed in connection "ith that Bill, the were corrupt in conn••ction with the admin­ Premier went on to say- istration of public affairs. Up till the pre­ " After that statement, I do not. see why the sent moment all the returns and documents honourable gentlemen opposite shou:d express which had bl'en laid on the table of the any surprise whatever that we now choose to House and put into the possession of hon­ justif, t.his undertaking, and build our super­ ourable members, had failed to bring home stmcture of rail" ays upon this foundation of such a charge. He (Mr. McL~an), for one, reserves. I do not see how they can justify consi lered that those charges brought any accus,.tion sm·h as that we have announced ag 1inst the Government had failed, and he a new policy this session. I have done not.hing could not give his support to any motion of the hind. I intend to abide exactlv, or th:tt would have the slightest tendency to nearly exaetly, by the terms of the last· Bill. deprive the present Government pf power, There a•·e only some immaterial alterations in aHd place another set of gentlemen in the wording, and the Govel:'nment propose to abide as nearly as possible by the polwy of last their places. When it came to be a session, which was, to ask the authority of the question of the transferenee of power House for lo,ms to cormnence thesP works, and from one party to another, he would re­ carry them on in the nwantime, taki11 g care to quire to have faith in the party likely to provide that, by the creation of these reserves, come into powPr before he gave them his they seeurP the means for the payment of the vote. With ref,,rence to the present leader iJ terest on those loans, and f r the fin,,] repay­ of the Opposition, there was no one who ment of the loan itself. All this was clt arly had a higher respect for his abilities than sta~ed last year, and I hope to make it clear now~ loos Supply- t.A.SSEMBLY.] Contingent Motion. that thJ primary consideration, before we enter he should vote against the motion tabled upon rai1wa.v enterprise at all, is to ·ake care by the leader of the Opposition. It that Ghe indebtedness which we foresee in con· had been repeatedly said, that the sequwce-that the loan which we shall have longer a line the better it paid ; but t • :ai"e, and must. raise-will be met in the there was one feature in the question forn. I have described. I hope, therefore, the that had evidently been forgotten-popula­ mem1er for Normanbv and others will not be tion. Without population no line would led a.vay by the nnsrept•esenration of their pay; and if a line had to be takPn over frieodc who wish to d~lude them into the be­ lie£ that we are p1·opounding a new policy. I HO miles of sandy desert, it must of neres­ sity work at a loss. They were told by .il~ not S'l.V that in some unimportant particulars VI~ sha.ll not be prepared to accept amendments one member of the Opposition that if it J}iim this House. So long a- the main princi­ could be proved that branch lines would pay, ples of the Btll aresecured-solong as we obtain they would have no objection to go on with sutfi<·ient reserves of hnd with a view to meet the construction of them; while the same the interest., and be satisfied that we can supply question was never asked with regard to .those persons from whom we borrow money the main trunk lines. Surely, what was with a g arantee that, even w1th these special sauce for the goose was sauce for the lid scepti~al as the honour.thle member for Too­ that thPy would pay interest on construc­ woomba has been on m am occasit~ns." tion. He was much stru,·k with the re­ That proved pretty conclusively that the mark of the honourable member for Nor­ Government poliey had been all along to man by, that he would vote for the con­ constru1t r;tilways from loan; but they strudion of trunk lines, if they could be provided a certtlin guaranteE' to the English made as cheaply as roads. And yet the creditors that their tuonPy ~hould be rpp·tid same honourable member was quite willing from land sales in thtJ l''tilway re~erves. to vote for the eonstruction of trunk lines ; It was not the intention of the Goverrment no matter how costly they were, so long as to St>ll tht• land fir~t, and then construct wool couid be brought down to the sea­ railways, but to set apart these reserves as ports chenply. The bringing to market of a gw•rantee· that the interest would be paid, farm produce was nothing in the eyes of and finally the whole loan, by that pro­ the Opposition, yet they were magnanimous cess. He was very much struck with enough to say that they would build branch the line of policy laid down by the lPader lines for the farmers, if they could be made of the Opposition in his allocation of as cheaply as roads. That was what they the three millions which he propo~ed were to expect if ever the party now in Oppo­ to borrow. Something like two-thirds sition were transferred to the Tr,•asury of the whole was to be appropriatt>d benches. He had every confidence in the up­ for the purpose of constructing what were rightness of the leader of the Opposition, and termt>d main trunk lines of railway. No one or two of his followers; but the tPnor of memb •r was more willing than himself to the sp •eehes of the majority of the members ·give his vottJ in favour of railways; but of the Opposition was in a direct opposition he could not forgt•t that there was already to the sentiments of their own leader, and a very large population settled on the he felt bound to pause before giving his lands of the colony who were not yet pro­ vote to put them in possession of power. vided with any means of bringing their He might here say that some honourable produce to market. And yet they were to members rang the Darling Downs into borrow two millions to benefit imaginary their ears on every possible occasion. se:tL·rS"' while tlwy wPre to leave in the They seemed to think there was no other cold thP large industrial and agricultural plaee in the world than the Darling population who h"d already bAPn settled or Downs. Every question that arose, whether tlw lands, who W"re stru!/,'gling ag-timt with regard to land legislation, railway bad seasons and bad roads, and who wer dt•b,Ltt•. Thtl PnEMUR, in agreeing to the motion, expresse l a hope that the debate would finish as early as possible to-morrow, as there was a good deal of importaut pub.ic business that requir<'cl attending to. Question put aud p:~ssed, and r,·sumption of dl' b,tte fixed to stantl an Oetler of the Da_; for to-morrow. The House adjourned at half-past 10 o'clock.