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John D. Graham PERSPECTIVES ON MODERN REGULATORY GOVERNANCE ORAL HISTORY PROJECT JOHN D. GRAHAM Administrator of the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs, 2001-2006 Interviewed by Edward Balleisen, Ashton Merck, and Jonathan Wiener March – April, 2016 Kenan Institute for Ethics, Duke University, Durham, NC Interview 1: March 2, 20161 Ashton Merck: This is an oral history interview of John D. Graham, here at the White Lecture Hall at Duke University. I'm Ashton Merck. Edward Balleisen: I'm Edward Balleisen, a historian here at Duke University. Jonathan Wiener: I'm Jonathan Wiener, professor at Duke University. John Graham: I'm John Graham, Indiana University. Merck: Today we're going to go over your early years and career before you made the transition from academia to OIRA, up to and including your senate confirmation hearing for OIRA. Balleisen: OIRA being the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs in the White House. Merck: …Where did you grow up, and, tell us about high school, your early years? Graham: Born and raised in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, rabid Steeler/Pirate fan, son of a businessman in the steel industry -- perfectly appropriate for Pittsburgh. Two sisters, older brother, a kind of middle-class, suburban upbringing. My father came upon substantial wealth, but most of it was after I left the household, so I never thought of myself as being from a wealthy family. It's certainly a wealthy family today. Balleisen: What kind of schooling did you attend? Graham: Public school. Balleisen: Which high school in Pittsburgh? Graham: North Hills. Balleisen: So what was that like? Graham: Large. My class was 730. …it was growing so much at the time that we ended up splitting – I think it was my sophomore and junior year – they had to have some people going from 7 until 12 and then the other going from 1 to 5, they had split days, if you understand what I'm saying. We were done with classes at noon, which was nice. Anyway, this big, nondescript, diverse high school. Balleisen: Was there much engagement with politics or policy around the dinner table or was that not your family's...? Graham: No. There was a lot of talk of steel industry and business. My father, who was very much in control of dinner conversations, had a disdain for politics. Politics was bad in my house. 1 Note: John Graham has reviewed the transcript of the interviews and furnished minor edits to clarify or improve flow for the reader. Balleisen: What about policy? Graham: Policy was bad, too. Graham: He had other things he was more interested in. It's been fascinating for me to watch him, because now he's retired and he's 90 years old, and his biggest interest in life is politics. He's really, really interested in it. So, I think people evolve, right? Merck: So…after high school, one must assume that you went to college. Graham: I did. I was a golfer in high school. I even had little dreams that I might actually try to play golf in college. When I went to Wake Forest University, I did realize it was a good golf school, but I didn't realize how good Wake golfers really were, so I ended up on the debate team. Balleisen: What led you to Winston-Salem for college from Pittsburgh? Graham: Well, I had been a high school debater, and I went to Wake Forest for a summer debate institute. It was for three weeks in the summer before my senior year. I got to know the campus and got to know a bunch of the people there. I really enjoyed that experience. My … group leader was actually a very famous debater from the University of North Carolina, so I was hoping to go to the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. I applied but did not get admitted because I was an out-of-state student, and my standardized test scores were very low, I was not able to get into most of the highly competitive colleges. I had a similar problem with law schools and many graduate schools. I was rejected for admission to the PhD program in political science at Indiana University. Balleisen: We'll circle back to that eventually. You came to Wake Forest. Did your interest in debate help to structure the sorts of courses you wanted to take or your choice of major? Graham: I guess so. I was a double major in economics and politics…. It was at the time called Politics and not Political Science. This was a sensitive issue in the intellectual culture of that department. They considered themselves a humanities and not a social science. They believed politics was an art and not a science, and so forth. I thought a lot of that was behind the times or something like that, I guess you would say. The politics department was not very friendly to debaters, because we missed a lot of classes. They didn't think that was appropriate. We were traveling around the country, debating instead of coming to classes. I wouldn't say it was very friendly, but it certainly reflected some interests that I had, so I sort of did it anyway. Economics,… my father wanted to be in business. He's always, “business is what people do.” Economics, I had some interest in it, and it was like I could sort of keep him at bay. I had a period from when I was about 15 to 20, where – I always had a very close relationship with my mother – but my father and I had a lot of differences. We just didn't communicate. It was pretty bad. I admired him too, but I just couldn't deal with him. Later in life, we became much closer. Balleisen: Did you encounter regulatory institutions in your courses while you were an undergraduate? Graham: Well, it was big in debate, but whether I encountered it in courses, I don't really have any recollection of that. Courses were not a big part of my life when I was in college. I did the minimum amount necessary in my classes to get B's and A's, and it was not important to me. Balleisen: It sounds like debate was much more important. Graham: Debate was my life, absolutely. Balleisen: Were regulatory issues something that...? Graham: They were at the heart of a lot of debates, absolutely. Balleisen: Can you recall some examples? Graham: Now, at the time, I don't know whether we processed them as regulatory issues. We talked about whether airbags should be in cars. We talked about other types of consumer product safety. We talked about environmental regulations a lot.… The concept of regulation per se was something that somebody was interested in. Nobody cared about regulation. It's boring. It's the things you're regulating, the issues that are rising in regulations, that were interesting to me. It was much later in my life that regulation became a focal point, for me. Wiener: Do you recall the kind of debate that you did, it was the policy debate...? Graham: Yes, I was in policy debate. Wiener: Do you recall what the national topics were? Some of them... Graham: When I was in high school? Wiener: High school or college. Graham: I remember, vividly, one of the topics was a poverty topic, that there should be a comprehensive program to reduce poverty in America, something like that. I used to come to the dinner table and try to get some of the conversation in that direction. It drove my father completely mad. It was a source of big conflict.... Balleisen: Your senior thesis focused on one of the issues that was vibrant in the 1970s. I think the title was a cost benefit analysis of the 55 mile an hour speed limit. Graham: Right. Balleisen: Was that a topic that you developed out of debate or...? Graham: I wrote two theses. I wrote one in the politics department and one in the economics department…. The one that I was more interested in was the one that was in the politics department. It was about why we put people in prison, why we punish people, and it explored theories of deterrence, incapacitation and rehabilitation. That was closely connected to a lot of the issues that were being debated my senior year. It was a crime and justice topic. The other thesis, on the speed limit, was not directly related to the debate topic but it was definitely connected in some ways. I don't remember debating the speed limit issue directly, certainly automobile safety. I was very interested in debate. It got me interested in ideas about trade-offs. The speed limit was very interesting in that regard, because you had sort of a lifesaving benefit on the one side. Energy was a big deal at the time, because we had had those long gas lines, remember, that we have people...the gas prices not only shot up, and literally, people couldn't get gasoline. They would go to the gas station in the morning, and they would sit in line to get their gas. Balleisen: You would have been 16, 17 when that was going on in 1973? Graham: Right, it was very much…a remembrance. I was really intrigued by economists, the way they thought about things like the value of people's time. I remember spending a lot of time doing reading about how economists think about, how do you measure the value of people's time, and whether clumps of time like eight hours, should that be valued the same way as losing 16, 30-minute segments.
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