Meetings between K. Kaunda, President of , and Ministers R. F. Botha and the Administrator General W. A. van Niekerk: Lusaka, Apr. 25, 1984

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Aluka is a not-for-profit initiative dedicated to creating and preserving a digital archive of materials about and from the developing world. For more information about Aluka, please see http://www.aluka.org Meetings between K. Kaunda, , and Ministers R. F. Botha and the Administrator General W. A. van Niekerk: Lusaka, Apr. 25, 1984

Date 1984-04-25 Resource type Minutes Language English Subject Coverage (spatial) South Africa, Zambia, Angola, Namibia, Southern Africa (region), Cuba, Southern Africa (region) Coverage (temporal) 1984 Source Digital Imaging South Africa (DISA) Rights required Description Meetings between South Africa and President Kaunda to discuss the peace initiatives in southern Africa and the Cuban/Angola Statement issued by Fidel Castro, President of Cuba, and Jose Eduardo Dos Santos, on 19 March 1984 Format extent 11 pages (length/size)

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/CU TWEEN DR , PRESIDENT OF ZAMBIA, AND R F BOTHA, GENL M A DE M MALAN AND THE OR GENERAL DR W A VAN NIEKERK: LUSAKA, 25 APRIL igs took place on 25 April 1984, one before and after the discussions between South Africa and th were held in President Kaunda's private study use.) ng: 12h40 - 13h10 MBIA r K Kaunda, President of Zanbia inister W J Phiri, Special Assistant to the resident r M Punabantu, Special Assistant to the President OUTH AFRICA r R F Botha, Minister of Foreign Affairs an M A de M Malan, Minister of Defence r W van Niekerk, Administrator-General of South est Afrida J Zazeraj# Private Secretary to the Minister of oreign Affairs aiida opened the meeting by welcoming Minister is delegation to Zambia. Zambia welcomed recent t t#Ar4i peace in Southern Africa and was 0* daeuh Africa was doing in this regard. s of Southern Africa were now talking to each

-2 :ead of fighting. Zambia was helping behind the would continue to help. lotha thanked President Kaunda for his warm words and for the hospitality which the President and als had extended to the South African delegation. greetings from the South African Prime Minister, en impressed by President Kaunda's positive role rch for peace and stability in Southern Africa. 3otha explained that today, 25 April 1984, the ster's Budget Vote was being debated by Parliament )wn. The debate would continue tomorrow and the Since it is an important event both nationally ationally it was perhaps inevitable that his and alan's absence from Parliament would raise in the Parliamentary Press Gallery. ion had been to hold today's meeting in Lusaka sentatives of Angola on a confidential basis, but w clear that news of the meeting had already )n arrival in Lusaka this morning his Private iad put through a routine call to Minister Botha's Cape Town only to be told that the office was )ress inquiries about his absence. His office was o comment at the moment, but it was already Lt the press was interested in the movement of the Last night the French Embassy in Cape Town had for confirmation that such a meeting was to take saka. They had apparently been informed by their Luanda. There was also reason to believe that ie meeting had leaked in Washington. It would )e counterproductive to deny it. Minister Botha .his, but since the press was free in South Africa United States there was nothing he could do about / L..,/

- 3 - expressed the sincere hope that the presence of a :an negotiating team in the Zambian capital would' embarrassment for President Kaunda ...... Kaunda interrupted Minister Botha to say that absolutely no question of embarrassment. On the Zambia was proud to play its role in bringing the gether, and did so openly. It was Angola who did ie meeting made public, not Zambia. to the subject of today's meeting, President I he had been surprised by South Africa's reaction !nt joint statement in Havanna by Cuba and Angola. realise that such statements were made for public i and should not be interpreted literally'. The ;as done in private, in meetings such as this. otha replied that South Africa did not believe in thing in public and another in private. There flict between South Africa's private and public Apart from that, the Cuban/Angolan, statement erely a verbal slip of the tongue. It was a rifully prepared document, in both Spanish and , with each version having equal validity. The language in which it was presented was almost that of a treaty. Aspects of it were totally .e to South Africa, and South Africa could not )e expected to ignore it. bject of public statements Minister Botha drew Katnda!s attention to reports in the South Lia in which President Kaunda was quoted as having :fe Accord of Nkomati. The Zambian Ambassador to States, Mr Benjamin Mkapa, had also been quoted, iprt !§as being severely hostile to the Bh A4 h d .n deeply disturbed by these [sincerely hoped that they did not represent the

-4 the Zambian Government. Minister Botha said a would be grateful if President Kaunda could bia's position. aunda replied that he was not aware of these rts, and asked whether they could be made o him. Minister Botha handed two press cuttings t Kaunda(copies attached) whereupon President anted that the matter could be discussed later, ,nd meeting with him in the afternoon. At this e wanted to say was that he had more than once icly that he believed the South African Prime is a sincere man. He had chosen delicate n, which to make these statements, such as when students and at military passing-out parades. No position would openly praise the South African ter if he did not believe he was a man to be ertain things about South Africa still worried iunda and he would communicate these concerns to i, but this did not detract from his admiration .nister P W Botha. -ha thanked President Kaunda for his sentiments. tha then enquired whether President Kaunda was the work of the Multi-Party Conference in After briefly reviewing the purpose and of the MPC, Minister Botha handed to President ?y of the MPC's Bill of Rights, saying that the 0uld appreciate the importance of this document he President's views on the matter would be 'eciated idh A ab6pted the copy of the MPC's Bill of !i *Ah he would study it with interest. /, &.

5 )tha said that he would be discussing the whole golan question with Minister Rodriques in the After briefly reviewing the work of the Joint Commission, the disengagement of South African I the very complex question of Unita, Minister * whether it would be possible to bring President and Dr Savimbi together for discussions aimed at peaceful solution to the civil war in Angola. d last seen Minister Phiri, Minister Botha had .er there was any possibility of President Kaunda assistance in this regard. Minister Phiri had Lt he could not speak for his President, but in I view it would create difficulties for Zambia. frican Prime Minister had put the same question t Machel, whose reply was that Minister Botha had raised the matter with him, and that a special Mozambique had already visited Angola to test the was shortly before the Havanna meeting. So far sponse had been received from Luanda. )tha added that in South Africa's view it was .o stop the war so that all the parties involved er around the negotiating table and seek a lutioni The human suffering caused by the war truction of Angola's economic ihfrastructure was s interest The fighting had to be stopped. io substitute for personal contact. The reality :he MPLA was fighting a war, Dr Savimbi was war, as were South African and South West African SWAPO. It was vitally important for all parties lict to find out what each other's conditions for ii parktIs Wanted peace, but they would first L tB i 5her, The Administrator-General of Africa was prepared to arrange for talks between ,F%. -

- 6 - L parties and SWAPO. As far as Angola was uld it be possible to get President dos Santos i together? unda replied that it would indeed be difficult o assist in this regard. Originally Zambia had get UNITA accepted in OAU circles, and had r a government of national unity in Angola prior endence. If Zambia was going to be helpful it D stay out of Angola's internal affairs. :ha then informed President Kaunda that the :- General was planning to go ahead with the ween SWAPO and the internal parties of He asked whether President Kaunda had any the meeting being held in Lusaka. unda asked what date the Administrator-General 7k suggested 7 May 1984. inda said that in principle he had no objection. sult with SWAPO and let Dr van Niekerk know. ha said that he had been asked to convey a al to President Kaunda. Apparently Dr Savimbi 'A leadership had recently heard radio reports ad interpreted as an invitation to enter into a h President Kaunda. Minister Botha could not the validity or otherwise of their )n, but the result was that Dr Savimbi had wo special envoys with instructions to seek an :h President Kaunda. On entering Zambia the two se names were Ernesto Mulatto and Cyprian ! arrested by the Zambian authorities.

- 7- 0tha had been asked to make special )ns to President Kaunda for the release of the Savimbi had acted in good faith, and if he was sending these two envoys he was truly sorry. )t want to cause any difficulties for Zambia. who were arrested were acting on Dr Savimbi's were innocent messsengers en route to President Lunda replied that he was totally unaware of consulting his two Special Assistants at the also said they had no knowledge of the matter, inda undertook to have it investigated. adjourned for lunch hosted by President Kaunda h African and Angolan delegations. ng: 17h15 - 17h50 BIA K Kaunda, President of Zambia nister W J Phiri, Special Assistant to the esident M Punabantu, Special Assistant to the President UTH AFRICA * R F Botha, Minister of Foreign Affairs in ' Ai d M ld Minister of Defence Vift Riakerk, Admnlis%?ator-General of South st Africa

- 8 - tha informed President Kaunda that the talks South African and Angolan delegations had been The meeting had almost been recked within the en minutes as a result of acrimonious and :tacks on South Africa which had been launched by La and also as a result of severe hostility in various articles in a magazine called The Minister had a copy of the publication It was the February. 1984 edition and it was cifically to Angola. It carried a number of is by Angolan Ministers and in virtually article a was blamed for all the ills and disasters of :ica. :ha explained to President Kaunda that the South ernment was not unduly sensitive to criticism . but there was a vast difference between the itiments expressed from time to time by moderate ders like President Kaunda himself on the one ie vicious and venomous attacks made by Radio in the "Africasia" publication. The South vernment could not accept that successful could be conducted nor that peace, and ig between two states could be achieved if one of continued to publicly condemn the other in the Ms. .rican GOVernment was therefore concerned that if La's attacks on South Africa and the views 1 the publication in question were an accurate )f the Angolan Government's thinking, there was R e iie sfabiiity and a lasting modus vivendi. i" hola wanted to know from Minister ether the Luanda broadcasts and the "Africasia"

- 9 - sin fact reflected his Government's views and, if er Botha had then indicated that he would know He was not prepared to waste his time engaged ions with another country which was obviously louble role. )tha then informed President Kaunda that Minister Lad denied that Radio Luanda or the publication in ad reflected his Government's views. Minister considered Minister Rodriques' attitude to be and had therefore been prepared to proceed with for the meeting. ,aunda said that he was greatly relieved to hear xpressed his thanks to Minister Botha on learning rn of events and then proceeded to respond to Botha's earlier complaints regarding the attitude towards the Accord of Nkomati. In a ,ionalisation of his reported views the President the report which appeared in the Cape Times of April 1984 on the Zambian envoy's attacks on -a was devoid of all truth because the person :he Cape Times was not the Zambian Ambassador in but the Tanzanian Ambassador, and the President Iccept responsibility for what the Ambassador of ntry had said. tha immediately agreed. aunda then continued to explain that it was not a being against the Accord of Nkomati. He was bout the euphoria which had been created by the w ich might induce people to start thinking that -66lems of the region had been resolved. He m iist _B-tha to keep in mind that he, ifv+jH4A )PaI reeently on two occasions stated at in his opinion Prime Minister P W Botha was

- 10 - his efforts to move ahead and to resolve the Dblems facing South Africa. There were many ho took exception to President Kaunda's views on ster P W Botha but he had nonetheless repeated 's. The first occasion was in a speech to the stitute in Lusaka and the second occasion was at a : parade. Kaunda said that he considered himself a Christian d in God. Throughout his life he had endeavoured t he thought in a straightforward manner. There )ccasions in the past when he had not hesitated to the British Government and other Governments, or atter, his own people. He was encouraged by the h the South African Government was taking to .e dangerous Angola/Namibian conflict, and the to the South African Prime Minister to visit 11 stood. He trusted that the South African would not be over-sensitive to critical remarks. were sometimes made for the public gallery. He :o the South African Government to try to his position. to the two Unita members who had allegedly been Zambian authorities, President Kaunda indicated id look into the matter and see what he could do. d that there must have been a misunderstanding had not publicly advocated a meeting between Los Santos and Dr Savimbi at this stage, but in had made recently he had referred to the point of he had held some years previously when he had our of a government of national unity in Angola. v6sgate the matter and let South Africa know. ta the §uggested meeting between Swapo and the ,iii O WA/Ramibia who were participating in

- 11 sident Kaunda reaffirmed his willingness to host ring, and said that he would discuss the matter adership of Swapo. munda askecl that is yarm rfar- s be cqnveyed to Lnister of South Africa.