ABC News Transcripts April 6, 2006 Thursday

Page 1 GOSPEL OF JUDAS; NEW BIBLICAL FINDING ABC News Transcripts April 6, 2006 Thursday

ABC News Transcripts

April 6, 2006 Thursday

SHOW: Primetime Live 10:47 PM EST ABC

GOSPEL OF JUDAS; NEW BIBLICAL FINDING

ANCHORS: JOHN QUINONES

REPORTERS: CYNTHIA MCFADDEN (NEW YORK, NY USA)

ANNOUNCER "Primetime." Here's Cynthia McFadden. CYNTHIA MCFADDEN (ABC NEWS) (Off-camera) Now from the mysteries of the body to a mystery of history and the soul. About one of the most despised men of all time, Judas, who with a kiss betrayed Jesus for just 30 pieces of silver according to the Bible. But is it possible there is a gospel of Judas which tells a very different story? For the first time ever, tonight, you're about to see the ancient document that claims Judas wasn't a villain at all but doing exactly what Jesus wanted. CYNTHIA MCFADDEN (ABC NEWS) (Voiceover) It is a mystery 2,000 years in the making, buried in the desert, fueled by centuries of debate and doubt, theft and deceit. The question, was there ever a gospel according to Judas? And if there was, what does it reveal? The mystery begins to unravel almost 30 years ago, according to a new National Geographic Channel documentary. A farmer finds a decaying leather-bound book, a codex. Five years after it was found, the first glimpse of meaning when scholar Stephen Emmel is asked to look at the document. STEPHEN EMMEL (BIBLICAL SCHOLAR) I leafed through it and by chance spotted the dialogue between Jesus and his disciples. And in particular the name Judas came up again and again. Judas said XXX, the lord said blah, blah, blah. CYNTHIA MCFADDEN (ABC NEWS) (Voiceover) Could it be a gospel according to Judas? Scholars had long be- lieved such a gospel existed, but it had been banned by the early church, called blasphemous and ordered destroyed. Had a copy somehow survived? A gospel telling the story of the most reviled man in history. MARVIN MEYER (CHAPMAN UNIVERSITY) He's the one who handed over his friend. He's the one who brought about the crucifixion. And he's the one who is damned for all time for that reason. CYNTHIA MCFADDEN (ABC NEWS) (Voiceover) The bible tells how the other disciples also fail Jesus. Peter denied him three times and yet is given the keys to the church and the basilica named for him in Rome. It is Judas alone who is unforgiven, condemned to the seventh level of hell in Dante's inferno, eaten head first by Lucifer. BART EHRMAN (UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA) Traditionally in Christian circles Judas in fact has been associated with Jews. Often they think of him as somebody who was more interested in making Page 2 GOSPEL OF JUDAS; NEW BIBLICAL FINDING ABC News Transcripts April 6, 2006 Thursday

money than being faithful to his master. And this portrayal of Judas, of course, also leads then to horrendous acts of anti-Semitism through the centuries. CYNTHIA MCFADDEN (ABC NEWS) (Voiceover) But what if there was more to the story? The codex itself disap- peared yet again, slowly disintegrating in, of all places, a safe-deposit box in Hicksville, Long Island. But finally in the year 2000 there was a buyer. For the last five years, a dream team of scientists and scholars assembled and funded by the National Geographic and two other foundations restricted access to a small group. Verification would be an enormous challenge. The 13 pages of the papyrus with writing on the back and front were in 1,000 pieces. Painstakingly, a Swiss restorer and her partner fit the tiny pieces together. But could the document be a forgery like the famously phony Hitler diaries? The book is written in an ancient language, Coptic. For that Dr. Stephen Emmel and Dr. Rudolph Kasser are brought in. STEPHEN EMMEL (BIBLICAL SCHOLAR) The number of people who could create such a text is very small. How many would you say? Perhaps 25? DOCTOR RUDOLPH KASSER (BIBLICAL SCHOLAR) Not so much. I would say four or five. STEPHEN EMMEL (BIBLICAL SCHOLAR) Four or five. We're two of them. Someone would have to know Coptic better than we do. And there isn't anybody that knows Coptic better than we do. I'm sorry. CYNTHIA MCFADDEN (ABC NEWS) (Voiceover) So though the language was authenticated, there was one final task of the papyrus itself. But that means burning fragments of the document to carbon dated. In 15 hours, a final answer. It is real. The authentic gospel according to Judas. ELAINE PAGELS (PRINCETON UNIVERSITY) This is a genuine ancient text. CYNTHIA MCFADDEN (ABC NEWS) (Off-camera) This is not the Hitler diaries? ELAINE PAGELS (PRINCETON UNIVERSITY) This is not that at all. CYNTHIA MCFADDEN (ABC NEWS) (Voiceover) Elaine Pagels has also worked on the National Geographic project. A professor at Princeton and one of the world's experts on the so-called Gnostic or secret gospels banned by the early church, the gospel of Judas among them. So what is in the gospel of Judas? CYNTHIA MCFADDEN (ABC NEWS) (Off-camera) Is it fair to say the headline here is that maybe Judas wasn't such a bad guy, that maybe Christ in fact asked him to - to betray him? ELAINE PAGELS (PRINCETON UNIVERSITY) The gospel of Judas does suggest that the betrayal of Judas is not a repre- hensible act, not the act of a traitor, you know, the worst villain in the history of the world. But that it's a secret mystery between him and Jesus. It is an extraordinary transformation of the ordinary understanding of Judas Iscariot. CYNTHIA MCFADDEN (ABC NEWS) Page 3 GOSPEL OF JUDAS; NEW BIBLICAL FINDING ABC News Transcripts April 6, 2006 Thursday

(Voiceover) An idea that will be shocking to many. Today, the gospel of Judas got its first public outing at a news conference. CYNTHIA MCFADDEN (ABC NEWS) (Voiceover) It is now on display at the National Geographic Society in Wash- ington. It is also the cover story of the upcoming "National Geographic" maga- zine and two new books. But while the document is real, is what it claims also true? Did Jesus ask Judas to betray him, or did the New Testament get it wrong? ELAINE PAGELS (PRINCETON UNIVERSITY) I don't think that we have in this gospel what we would call historical proof. We also don't have that in the other gospels. CYNTHIA MCFADDEN (ABC NEWS) (Off-camera) So essentially we're never going to know the answer to this one. ELAINE PAGELS (PRINCETON UNIVERSITY) I don't see how we would. Although you see, we could always find next week or in 50 years, other evidence that we don't have now. CYNTHIA MCFADDEN (ABC NEWS) (Voiceover) In the end, questions of spirit and soul can't be analyzed like a piece of papyrus. If Judas did not betray Jesus and was part of a grand plan, does that change anything for Christian theology? CYNTHIA MCFADDEN (ABC NEWS) (Off-camera) If it were to be true that Jesus in fact asked Judas to betray him, would that affect basic Christianity? BEN WITHERINGTON (EVANGELICAL SCHOLAR) Well, it would mean among other things that Jesus had some kind of death wish for a start. And it would raise some questions about his character. For him to sort of script it would suggest he's not just submitting to the will of God in his life. He's actually got his hands on the wheel and he's driving the wheel of history in a particular direction. And some would find that troubling. CYNTHIA MCFADDEN (ABC NEWS) (Off-camera) It is easy to understand, though, why some in the organized church will not like the discovery of this gospel. ELAINE PAGELS (PRINCETON UNIVERSITY) Absolutely, they won't. Some will be very offended, and they'll say it's an utterly preposterous idea that Judas could be involved in a secret mystery with Jesus. CYNTHIA MCFADDEN (ABC NEWS) (Off-camera) And you'd say that's to miss the point. ELAINE PAGELS (PRINCETON UNIVERSITY) I think so. The Christian message is about faith and hope. It's not a matter of historical fact. CYNTHIA MCFADDEN (ABC NEWS) (Voiceover) The gospel of Judas may also provide a chance to ask new questions by exploring ancient ideas. ELAINE PAGELS (PRINCETON UNIVERSITY) Could, for example, Judas be forgiven? And when people start asking that question, they'll realize it doesn't destroy faith, it actually can strengthen it. But it's a different kind of faith. It's informed by what we understand about â[#x20ac][#x201c] about our past. Page 4 GOSPEL OF JUDAS; NEW BIBLICAL FINDING ABC News Transcripts April 6, 2006 Thursday

CYNTHIA MCFADDEN (ABC NEWS) (Off-camera) In fact, all the scholars we talked to agreed the real signifi- cance of the gospel of Judas is the window it provides into what some early Christians were thinking. The National Geographic Channel special "The Gospel of Judas" premiers this Sunday April 9th. Check your local listings. We'll be right back. ANNOUNCER Next, twin baby brothers in a race against time. When "Primetime" returns. COMMERCIAL BREAK JOHN QUINONES (ABC NEWS) (Off-camera) Here's Elizabeth Vargas with a look at what's coming up tomorrow night on "20/20." ELIZABETH VARGAS (ABC NEWS) (Voiceover) We've been following their story since they took their first breath, twin boys born with the same rare condition. Their only chance for sur- vival, heart transplants. ELIZABETH VARGAS (ABC NEWS) (Off-camera) As you're praying for heart transplants, that means another baby someplace else has to die. Another beautiful baby like Jordan. MOTHER (FEMALE) I believe he was here for that baby. He - God had a plan for him. JOHN QUINONES (ABC NEWS) (Off-camera) That's tomorrow night at 10:00 on it with "20/20." And be sure to watch "Nightline" tonight after your local news. I'm John QuiÃ±ones. For all of us at "Primetime," good night. FOR INFORMATION ON ORDERING A VIDEO OR TRANSCRIPT COPY OF ABC NEWS OR ABC NEWS NOW PROGRAMMING, PLEASE VISIT THE SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT WWW.TRANSCRIPTS.TV

LOAD-DATE: April 7, 2006

LANGUAGE: ENGLISH

PUBLICATION-TYPE: Transcript