Wednesday Volume 551 17 October 2012 No. 50

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 17 October 2012

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2012 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 301 17 OCTOBER 2012 302

Mrs Siân C. James ( East) (Lab): I know that House of Commons the right hon. Gentleman is a great proponent of the Welsh language, but I urge him to ensure that in all Wednesday 17 October 2012 aspects and in all avenues of work within the Palace of Westminster the Welsh language is given the respect it The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock so rightly deserves. I hope that this type of thing is not going to happen again. PRAYERS Mr Jones: The hon. Lady has identified a problem that needs to be resolved, in that the Welsh Language [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Commissioner is, of course, a position that was created by the Welsh Assembly. It is important that in the non-devolved areas sufficient support should be given to the Welsh language, and I am pleased to report that Oral Answers to Questions my office is prepared and anxious to undertake that duty. Steel Industry 2. Dr Hywel Francis (Aberavon) (Lab): What recent The Secretary of State was asked— discussions he has had on the future of the steel industry in Wales. [122186] Police and Crime Commissioners The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales 1. Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): What recent (Stephen Crabb): I have had regular discussions with discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for ministerial colleagues on issues that affect Wales, including the Home Department on preparations for elected the future of the steel industry. police and crime commissioners in Wales. [122185] Dr Francis: I thank the Minister for his reply. May I The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones): warmly congratulate him and his colleague on their new With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to take this positions, which I believe were as a consequence of their opportunity to pay tribute to the dedication and apprenticeships on the Welsh Affairs Committee? professionalism of Dyfed-Powys police and all the other Tata Steel is a major investor and employer in my agencies involved in the search for April Jones, who constituency. Nearly £250 million has been invested went missing on 1 October. I am sure that the whole recently in the steel plant at , which is House will join me in praising them for their continued strongly supported by the Welsh Government, the local work to find April and in praising the support shown by council, the local trade unions and the local management. so many of the people of Machynlleth for her family. This is a strong regional partnership, so what will the The Wales Office and the Home Office have been Wales Office do to assist the steel industry in these working closely with the Welsh Government and partners challenging times? Will the Secretary of State speak to to make the police and crime commissioner reforms a the Business Secretary, his Cabinet colleague, to address success in Wales. Considerable progress has been achieved the issue of a level playing field in energy costs? Will he through the Wales Transition Board. visit the steelworks in my constituency at the earliest opportunity? Jessica Morden: I welcome the Secretary of State to Stephen Crabb: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his his new job. Will he let us know how much printing the question and for his kind remarks. One of the most second set of ballot papers for the police commissioner enjoyable parts of my first term in Parliament was elections in Wales will cost the Home Office? serving under his chairmanship on the Welsh Affairs Mr Jones: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her Committee. welcome. As the House will know, the order for the The Government absolutely recognise the strategic bilingual version of the forms was laid on 15 October, importance of Tata Steel as an inward investor into and it is hoped that the process will be completed by Wales, and the Wales Office has close links with the 30 October. On the question of cost, I shall write to her. company. I will certainly speak to the Business Secretary about what more we can do to support Tata’s inward Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): A serious investment. We do recognise that particular issue associated potential problem has been averted over the preparation with energy costs. That is why we have made £250 million of voting papers in the Welsh language. Will the Secretary available for intensive energy users, and I hope that the of State engage with the Welsh Language Commissioner hon. Gentleman and industries in Wales will be making to ensure that the commitment to bilingualism in Wales representations about how they can benefit from that is fully respected in all non-devolved areas, where the money. problem arose? Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): As my mother Mr Jones: Yes, the Wales Office is committed fully to comes from Aberavon, I understand only too well the the Welsh language and its support, not only in the importance of the steel industry and I congratulate the devolved areas but in the un-devolved ones. I am pleased hon. Member for Aberavon (Dr Francis) on asking his to report that my office is working closely with the question. Does my hon. Friend the Minister agree, Welsh Language Commissioner, and indeed it is proposed however, that the great news we have received today that that an official of the commissioner will be embedded employment in Wales is up by 40,000 and unemployment in the Wales Office. down by 7,000 is a good start? 303 Oral Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Oral Answers 304

Stephen Crabb: The labour market statistics for Wales of the first Welsh Bill—that is, the Local Government were particularly good today. Unemployment and Byelaws (Wales) Bill—to the Supreme Court should not worklessness are down and overall employment levels be regarded as disrespectful or hostile in any sense. It is are up. There are great reasons for optimism, but there simply an administrative procedure to clear up the issue is no reason to be complacent. of competence and that is it.

Respect Agenda Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): I add my words of support to those of the Secretary of State in support of 3. Kevin Brennan ( West) (Lab): What steps he the Dyfed-Powys police and the community of Machynlleth plans to take to promote the Prime Minister’s respect as they live through the awful events of recent weeks. I agenda in dealings between the UK Government and also warmly congratulate the Secretary of State and his the Welsh Government. [122187] deputy and welcome them to their new role. The Opposition are thrilled that the Prime Minister finally found a The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones): I Welsh MP to take on the post. am committed to working with the Welsh Government In fairness, the Secretary of State’s predecessor, with to deliver economic growth in Wales. I do not intend whom I did not always agree, has found a new spirit of that political differences should stand in the way of candour in recent weeks since she left the job and has such co-operative working in the interests of Wales. admitted, for example, that his Government have lost all reputation for competence. On this question of respect, Kevin Brennan: I congratulate the Secretary of State will he continue in this spirit of openness and clear up and his hon. Friend the Minister—llongyfarchiadau, as the question of his attitude to devolution? Will he tell us we say in Wales. When the Prime Minister promised a straightforwardly—does he think that devolution has respect agenda, did he mean trying to block Welsh been good for Wales? Assembly legislation, unilaterally abolishing wage protection for agricultural workers in Wales and tearing up a Mr Jones: I do not think I can carry on accepting all cross-border GCSE exam system without consultation? these welcomes; it is far too much for me—[Interruption.] If that is the case, can he even spell the word respect? It I am sure they will soon come to an end. I feel strongly is R. E. S. P. E. C. T., by the way. that devolution is developing, and that as the Assembly and the Assembly Government mature as institutions Mr Jones: As we say in Wales, diolch am they could be very good for Wales indeed. That is why I y llongyfarchiadau. I can assure the hon. Gentleman and my office are determined to work closely with them that this Government are fully committed to the respect to assist in doing our best for Wales with them. agenda. We are working closely with the Welsh Government and I am very pleased with the relationship I am cultivating Owen Smith: Mr Speaker, you will forgive me if I with Carwyn Jones, the First Minister. think that the Secretary of State’s view that the Assembly David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): Would both “could”be good for Wales is hardly a ringing endorsement Ministers, whom I warmly congratulate, agree with me of the devolution settlement that was so decisively that parch, as we say in Monmouthshire, is something supported by the Welsh people. Are not his view that that works in both directions, and that the refusal of the devolution settlement has “damaged our constitution” Welsh Assembly Ministers to appear before Select and his deputy’s view that it is “constitutional vandalism” Committees shows a disgraceful lack of respect not what they really think and where they really have disrespect only to this House but to those of us who were put in it for devolution? Is not the truth that the right hon. by the people of Wales? Gentleman cannot speak for modern Wales—devolved Wales—but we on this side of the House can and will? Mr Jones: The word “parch” means respect and I agree that parch is a process that works in two directions. Mr Jones: When I used the word “could”, my intention I am very hopeful that a new relationship will be cultivated was to point out that under the Labour Assembly not only between the two Governments but between Government, coupled with 10 years-plus of Labour Parliament and the Assembly. Government here in , Wales has been the poorest part of the United Kingdom. I believe that a lot more Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): I welcome the Secretary could be done to make happier place to live, of State to the job and although I wish his predecessor and for that purpose it is necessary for us in the Wales all the best, may I say how good it is to have a Welsh MP Office to work closely with the Welsh Assembly as Secretary of State for Wales again, but why on earth Government. I am willing to do that; I hope that the is he referring the first two laws passed by the Welsh hon. Gentleman will support me. Assembly under the Government of Wales Act 2006 to the Attorney-General? The provision I included in that Enterprise Zones Act was not to allow the Secretary of State to block Welsh legislation but primarily to deal with any cross-border 4. Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): issues, which I cannot see apply in these cases. Why is he What steps he is taking to promote enterprise zones in interfering in this anti-devolution manner? Wales. [122188]

Mr Jones: I echo the tribute the right hon. Gentleman The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales pays to my predecessor, who was an excellent Secretary (Stephen Crabb): I am strongly committed to working of State. As for the references to the Supreme Court, as with the Welsh Government to encourage private sector he knows these matters are set out in the Government investment and growth in Wales, including promoting of Wales Act, for which he was responsible. The reference enterprise zones in Wales. 305 Oral Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Oral Answers 306

Andrew Selous: Is it not important to have a much Enhanced capital allowances can play a significant part closer working relationship between the Governments in attracting inward investment to enterprise zones, so in London and in Cardiff in respect of enterprise zones, is my hon. Friend somewhat disappointed and so that we can make faster progress in creating jobs and dismayed that the Welsh Government have not sought wealth in Wales? to communicate with the Treasury about where they would like to bring this tax advantage in Wales? Stephen Crabb: My hon. Friend is exactly right: it is vital that the two Governments—the UK Government Stephen Crabb: The discussions about the use of and the Welsh Government in Cardiff—work together enhanced capital allowances in conjunction with other on a range of issues, not least the success of enterprise forms of regional aid are continuing with colleagues in zones. I am committed to doing that, and I look forward the Treasury, but we look forward very much to seeing very much to my first meeting with the Welsh business specific proposals from Welsh Ministers on how they Minister, Edwina Hart, which is to take place shortly. envisage enterprise zones developing in Wales.

Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): The Mrs Madeleine Moon () (Lab): The most Minister will be aware that having the Bristol enterprise enterprising company in my constituency, Biotec Services zone alongside the tolls on the gateway to the south International, is being prevented from developing because Wales economy is a major impediment to inward investment it cannot get export licences for growth hormones from and growth. Will he therefore ask Treasury colleagues the Home Office. I have written to the Home Office. to commission a study to see whether a reduction in the Will the Minister take an interest in this matter so that tolls would be more than compensated for by an increase this unique Welsh company does not lose its opportunity in income tax resulting from new jobs created by inward to grow and develop for Wales? investment? Stephen Crabb: I am concerned to hear that from the Stephen Crabb: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of hon. Lady. I note that she has written to the relevant State is to discuss tolls on the Severn bridge with our Minister, but if she would like to write to me as well, I right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport will certainly look into the matter and see that she gets this afternoon. No decisions have been made beyond all her questions answered. 2018, when the current concession ends. Clearly there is a lot to discuss in relation to how we maximise the Inward Investment benefits of inward investment in Wales. 5. Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con): What steps his Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con): Does my Department is taking to increase the level of inward hon. Friend agree that the objectives of the Cardiff investment into Wales. [122189] Central enterprise zone are much more likely to be realised now that the coalition Government have granted The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones): I £11 million to the city of Cardiff to make it one of the am working with UK Trade and Investment, ministerial most digitally connected cities in the world? colleagues and the Welsh Government to improve levels of inward investment into Wales. In fact, I am meeting Stephen Crabb: My hon. Friend is exactly right: the the chief executive of UKTI later today. £11.7 million that we have made available to Cardiff to support its development as a superconnected city will Karen Lumley: Does my right hon. Friend agree that make it one of the most digitally advanced cities in the the scrapping of the Welsh Development Agency has United Kingdom, and we look forward to that helping had a negative effect on inward investment into Wales, to leverage new business investment into the city. as highlighted recently by the Welsh Affairs Committee? Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): I very much welcome the Minister’s positive words about the Welsh Assembly Mr Jones: It is true that under the Welsh Development Government’s work with enterprise zones and, indeed, Agency, Wales was regularly the most important destination full co-operation on measures to help the economy, but for inward investment, but I support both Governments will he join me in congratulating Welsh Assembly working closely together to continue to attract inward Government Ministers on creating 1,700 youth jobs in investment into Wales. the past six months, in an effort to tackle the scourge of underlying youth unemployment in Wales? Will he tell Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): I warmly his Cabinet and Front-Bench colleagues how Wales is associate myself and my colleagues with the right hon. leading the way in this and that they should never have Gentleman’s remarks regarding Dyfed-Powys police and got rid of the future jobs fund? all the emergency services which are looking for little April Jones. I also congratulate the Secretary of State Stephen Crabb: I thank the shadow Minister for that and the Under-Secretary on their appointments. question. I welcome any new jobs being created that will What assessment has the right hon. Gentleman made tackle long-term youth unemployment in Wales. I am of the loss to Wales of inward investment since the just disappointed that she has not welcomed today’s disappearance of the Welsh Development Agency brand? news that unemployment has fallen in Wales, employment Who has the last word on inward investment—this is up and worklessness is down. Government or the Government in Wales?

12. [122197] Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): Mr Jones: It is clear, as the right hon. Gentleman Enterprise zones are a fantastic success in , but says, that Wales needs a strong brand in order to their success in Wales has been somewhat limited. promote itself around the world. It is clear also that 307 Oral Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Oral Answers 308 although economic development is devolved to the Stephen Crabb: My hon. Friend makes his point. Assembly Government, it needs to have the leverage Much has been said about that and I do not want to add that it will get from UKTI. That is why I am encouraging to it today, other than to say that it was unfortunate that the Welsh Government to work closely with UKTI. the Welsh Government acted unilaterally on the matter. The key point is the ongoing review of qualifications in Mr Llwyd: What discussions have the UK Government Wales and the proposals from my right hon. Friend the had with the Welsh Government about the establishment Secretary of State for Education for new qualifications of a dedicated trade promotion agency, either sitting at 16 in England. It is important that parents and pupils within the Welsh Government or as a private sector in Wales have confidence that their qualifications will vehicle, as recommended by the Welsh Affairs Committee be respected and robust, and that they will be able to back in February? take them to institutions and employers in England, where they will be respected. Mr Jones: I have regular discussions with the Welsh Government about inward investment, and I hope the Welsh Minister for Business is giving consideration to Investment that. 7. Mr Shailesh Vara (North West Cambridgeshire) Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): Academic (Con): What discussions he has had with ministerial research and development and its commercialisation colleagues and others about foreign direct investment are key ingredients in inward investment. I am heartened in Wales. [122191] that the Secretary of State is meeting UKTI later today. Will he impress on it at that meeting the excellent work 9. Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South that is being undertaken in Bangor, Glyndwr university, Pembrokeshire) (Con): What discussions he has had Aberystwyth and Swansea? We have a good message to with ministerial colleagues and others about foreign sell and we need UKTI to help us to sell it. direct investment in Wales. [122193] Mr Jones: My hon. Friend is absolutely right: Welsh The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones): I universities do have a good tale to tell. I would like to have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues about single out Swansea university and its science campus, attracting foreign direct investment to Wales. I was which it is developing closely with British and international delighted that my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime industry. Minister, during his visit to Turkey earlier this month, Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): Disability Employment announced that a Turkish steel company is to open a Ltd of Stoke wants to inwardly invest in Wrexham to new factory in Cardiff. put disabled workers sacked by this Government back to work. Will the Secretary of State come to Wrexham a Mr Vara: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for week on Friday to meet disabled workers from Remploy those comments. Does he agree that UK Trade and to explain to them why the Government will not support Investment’s global presence through our embassies that company? and high commissions provides a huge opportunity to ensure direct foreign investment in Wales? Mr Jones: As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Government’s policy on Remploy is to provide supported Mr Jones: UKTI has global reach, with its officials jobs in mainstream employment. I have had discussions embedded in every British mission around the world, with him previously about the issue. I am entirely happy and I am delighted that it is seconding two officials to to have further discussions with him if he requires. As the Welsh Government. to Friday, I cannot make any commitments as I do not have my diary. [Interruption.] Simon Hart: The Secretary of State will know that one reason foreign companies do not invest in west Mr Speaker: Order. There are far too many noisy Wales is the over-burdensome planning restrictions. private conversations taking place in the Chamber. Let’s Will he use his influence in the Welsh Assembly to have a bit of order for Karl McCartney. sweep away those obstacles? Ofqual Mr Jones: I am sure that my hon. Friend was pleased 6. Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): What to hear that the Welsh Government have designated an discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for enterprise zone in Milford Haven. Planning is indeed Education and others on the role of Ofqual in Wales. extremely important for the development of enterprise [122190] zones. It is being streamlined in England and I very much hope that the Welsh Government will follow suit. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Stephen Crabb): My right hon. Friend the Secretary of Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): I welcome the Secretary State for Wales has regular discussions with the Secretary of State to his new post—perhaps he is overwhelmed by of State for Education. For clarity, Ofqual is the independent the welcome he has had thus far. Will he encourage regulator of qualifications in England. It is the Welsh Ministers to look at improving infrastructure in Wales, Government who regulate qualifications in Wales. particularly port infrastructure, on which enterprise zones such as the one in Anglesey rely? He has passed Karl McCartney: Does the Minister share my concern the buck to the Welsh Assembly in the past. Will he now that a dangerous precedent is set when Ministers take it fight within Government so that we have a level playing upon themselves to mark exam papers? field with English ports? 309 Oral Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Oral Answers 310

Mr Jones: Ports are an undevolved area. I am pleased The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones): I to tell the hon. Gentleman that I regard Holyhead port have regular discussions with my right hon. Friend the as an important anchor of Anglesey’s economy and Secretary of State for Transport about a range of transport hope shortly to visit Captain Wyn Parry there. issues that affect Wales, including the importance of investing in rail infrastructure in Wales. Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): The proposed motor sport investment in Ebbw Vale could be an Guto Bebb: I thank the Secretary of State for his employment game-changer for Blaenau Gwent. Variable answer and warmly congratulate him on his new position. investment allowances are being sought by the international I also congratulate him and his predecessor on the development. I urge the Secretary of State to get the electrification of the south Wales railway network, which Treasury on board now for a fair tax treatment to help the Labour party failed to achieve in 13 years. Will he deliver the project. join me in calling on the Department for Transport to look at the possibilities for new signalling on the north Mr Jones: Enhanced capital allowances are an extremely Wales main line? important element of enterprise zones. They have already Mr Jones: I met representatives of Network Rail been granted in the case of the Deeside enterprise zone earlier this month to discuss their plans for the rail and we are urging the Welsh Government to make network in Wales, including the re-signalling programme. appropriate representations to HM Treasury so that The north Wales main line is due to be re-signalled they can be extended to other enterprise zones, such as commencing in 2015 as part of the Wales route the one in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. modernisation programme.

Housing Benefit 14. [122199] Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): How much of the £9.4 billion that is going to be spent on rail 8. Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): What infrastructure to 2019 will be spent in north Wales? assessment he has made of the potential effects of Mr Jones: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will be reductions in housing benefit in Wales. [122192] pleased to hear that I am already holding discussions with the Welsh Government and local authorities in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales north Wales with a view to exploring the possibility of (Stephen Crabb): Information on the expected impact in electrifying the north Wales railway line—105 miles, Wales and across Great Britain of our housing benefit and an enormous economic benefit for north Wales. reforms is set out in the impact assessments. We are taking urgent steps to manage housing benefit expenditure, Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): I providing a fairer and more sustainable scheme by welcome the announcement of extra capital expenditure, ensuring people who receive it have to make the same but will the Secretary of State work with the Welsh choices about housing as people who do not. Assembly to make sure that Welsh civil engineering companies help in competing for contracts for this Chris Evans: Will the Minister please explain why work? 17-year-old Shanika Roberts, who faces being made homeless because of this Government’s cuts to housing Mr Jones: Yes; this is an issue that has been identified benefit, should move in with her friend? recently. I am sure that the Welsh Government are aware of the problem and that they will address it. Stephen Crabb: Some £21 billion is currently spent on housing benefit, and the figure will go up without the reforms we are putting in place. I ask the hon. Gentleman PRIME MINISTER this: what is fair about 100,000 people in Wales languishing on waiting lists, often in cramped accommodation, The Prime Minister was asked— while others live in houses with empty rooms that are larger than they need? Engagements Q1. [122160] Mr William Bain ( North East) Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): In view of the (Lab): If he will list his official engagements for fact that £8.7 billion is spent on benefits in Wales every Wednesday 17 October. year, and nearly £1 in every £8 of that—£1 billion—is spent on housing benefit alone, is the taxpayer not The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): I am sure entitled to expect value for money? that the whole House will wish to join me in paying tribute to the servicemen who have tragically fallen Stephen Crabb: The taxpayer is absolutely entitled to since we last met for Prime Minister’s questions: Lance expect value for money, and I hope that my hon. Friend Corporal Duane Groom of 1st Battalion Grenadier will appreciate the fruits of our welfare reforms coming Guards; Sergeant Gareth Thursby and Private Thomas through in Wales, as borne out by today’s labour market Wroe of 3rd Battalion the Regiment; Sergeant statistics. Jonathan Kups of the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers; Captain James Townley of the Royal Engineers; Rail Infrastructure and Captain Carl Manley of the Royal Marines. Once again we are reminded of the immense danger our 10. Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): What discussions armed forces operate in to uphold our safety and our he has had with the Secretary of State for Transport on security. Their families and the whole country should capital investment in rail infrastructure in Wales; and if rightly be proud of their heroic service, and we will he will make a statement. [122194] always remember them. 311 Oral Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Oral Answers 312

I am sure that the House will also wish to join me in Q2. [122161] Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): I paying tribute to PC Fiona Bone and PC Nicola Hughes, congratulate the Government on the early introduction who were killed—brutally murdered—in the line of of the Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill. Farmers and duty on 18 September. The whole country has been third-world, developing-country producers desperately deeply shocked and saddened by the loss of these two need protection from what the Competition young, dedicated, exceptional officers. Our thoughts Commission has described as the “bully-boy tactics” of are with their families and with their colleagues at what some of the supermarket buyers. The Bill is welcome, must be a very, very difficult time. but how quickly will the Government introduce this I also know that the House would wish to join me in vital measure? sending our heartfelt condolences to the family of Malcolm Wicks, who sadly passed away on 29 September. Those The Prime Minister: We are making progress with in all parts of this House will remember Malcolm as a introducing the measure, which, as my hon. Friend says, real gentleman—a man of great integrity and compassion is important. It is very important that we stand up for who put his constituents first, who worked across party farmers and that they get a fair deal from supermarkets. lines, and who was a thoroughly decent man. He served On occasion, there have been unfair practices, such as the House with great distinction for 20 years, and I the in-year retrospective discounts that have sometimes know he will be missed by all who knew him. been proposed. I think that the Bill will be a major step forward. We must also pay tribute to another of Parliament’s great characters—it is hard to believe that he is not Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): I join the sitting right there in front of me—Sir Stuart Bell. Prime Minister in paying tribute to the six servicemen Sir Stuart was hugely popular across the House and was who have died since the House last met: Lance Corporal honoured for his services to Parliament. We will always Duane Groom of 1st Battalion Grenadier Guards; Sergeant remember him as a passionate, dedicated Member of Gareth Thursby and Private Thomas Wroe of 3rd Battalion the House whose kindness, again, transcended the political the Yorkshire Regiment; Sergeant Jonathan Kups of divide. We send our sincere sympathies to his wife and the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers; Captain family at this difficult time. James Tanley of the Corps of Royal Engineers; and This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues Captain Carl Manley of the Royal Marines. They all and others. In addition to my duties in this House I died heroically serving our country and showed the shall have further such meetings later today. upmost bravery and sacrifice, and our condolences go to their families and friends. Mr Bain: May I associate all right hon. and hon. I also join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to Members with the Prime Minister’s tribute to the members PCs Fiona Bone and Nicola Hughes. They remind us of of the armed forces and the police who died in the the dangerous work that our police officers do day in, service of our country, and to their families; and also day out in the line of duty. Their death is a great loss to say how much we in this House, and the people of the Greater Manchester police, the communities they Middlesbrough and Croydon North, will miss Sir Stuart served and, most of all, of course, their families. Bell and Malcolm Wicks? I also thank the Prime Minister for his very generous Last week the Prime Minister promised that work comments about the two Labour colleagues whom we would always pay, but this morning Baroness Grey- have lost since we last met. Stuart Bell was the son of a Thompson and the Children’s Society have revealed miner and a long-standing Member of this House. He that his current plans for universal credit next year will was passionate about European issues and served with mean that up to 116,000 disabled people in work could distinction as a Commissioner. His death was lose as much as £40 a week. Does not that say everything incredibly sudden: his illness was diagnosed just a matter about how this divisive Prime Minister always stands up of days before he died. The condolences of Labour for the wrong people? At the same time as handing huge Members and, I know, the whole House go to his tax cuts to 8,000 people earning over £1 million a year family. he is going to penalise some of the bravest strivers in Malcolm Wicks was one of the deepest thinkers in our country. this House. He was a brilliant Minister. I know from my time as the Energy Secretary what a brilliant Energy The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman raises an Minister he was. He faced his illness with the utmost extremely serious issue; let me try to deal with as fully as bravery. He knew what was going to happen to him, but I can. The money that is going into disability benefit he carried on writing, thinking, talking and, indeed, will not go down under universal credit; it will go up. engaging with the work of this House. My last conversation The overall amount of money will go from £1.35 billion with him was just before our party conference and he last year to £1.45 billion in 2015. Under the plans, no talked passionately about politics, as he always did. Our recipients will lose out, unless their circumstances change. condolences go to his whole family. All current recipients are fully cash-protected by a Today’s unemployment figures are welcome, transitional scheme. On future recipients, we have made particularly the fall in youth unemployment. I am an important decision and choice to increase the amount sure that we will all agree that too many people are that we give to the most severely disabled children, and still looking for work. The number of people out of there will be a new lower amount for less disabled work for a long period—over a year—remains people. That is a choice that we are making. As I have stubbornly high. Will the Prime Minister tell us why he said, we are increasing the overall amount of money believes that the fall this quarter in unemployment is and focusing on the most disabled. That shows the right not yet being matched by the figures for long-term values and the right approach. unemployment? 313 Oral Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Oral Answers 314

The Prime Minister: First, I thank the right hon. The Prime Minister: On long-term unemployment, I Gentleman for his generous remarks about those who just say to the Prime Minister that there are more have fallen, the brave police officers and the colleagues people out of work for longer than at any time for two that we in the House have lost. decades. That is happening on his watch. The unemployment figures are a good piece of news I want to turn to one group in particular who are that should be properly welcomed and looked at, because losing their jobs directly as a result of the Government’s a number of different things are happening: employment policy. A year ago, the Prime Minister told me at the is up by 212,000 this quarter; unemployment is down by Dispatch Box: 50,000 this quarter; the claimant count has actually “There is no reason for there to be fewer front-line officers.”— fallen by 4,000; and what that means is that since the [Official Report, 30 March 2011; Vol. 526, c. 335.] election some 170,000 fewer people are on out-of-work Will he tell the House how many front-line police benefits. What is remarkable about the figures is that officers have lost their jobs since the election? they show that there are more women in work than at any time in our history and that the overall level of The Prime Minister: The percentage of police officers employment is now above where it was before the crash on front-line duties has gone up. That is the key. Frankly, in 2008. We still have huge economic challenges to meet, whoever won the last election would have had to reduce we are in a global race, and we need to make a whole set police budgets. Labour was committed to reducing police of reforms in our country to education and welfare and budgets and we had to reduce police budgets. We have to help grow the private sector, but this is positive news been able to increase the percentage because we have cut today. the paperwork and taken difficult decisions about pay Long-term unemployment is still too high. That is and allowances. What is remarkable is that while the partly because of the big increase in unemployment at percentage of officers on the front line is up, crime is the time of the crash. We need to do more to deal with down. long-term unemployment. That is why the Work programme has helped 693,000 people already. We are Edward Miliband: I had really hoped that, just for prepared to spend up to £14,000 on an individual once, we would get a straight answer to a straight long-term unemployed person to get them back into question. All the Prime Minister needs to do—Government work. We do have the measures in place to tackle this Members will like this—is to take a leaf out of the scourge. police Minister’s book, because on Monday he told the House the truth. He said that there are 6,778 fewer Edward Miliband: Notwithstanding that, unemployment, front-line police officers than when they came to power. youth unemployment, long-term unemployment and Why not just admit—[Interruption.] I do not think that long-term youth unemployment are all higher than the part-time Chancellor is going to help, but perhaps when the Prime Minister came to office. I do not think he is taking over the Home Office. This is another that he can attribute the issue with long-term youth promise broken. unemployment to the crash that happened four years The Government are not just breaking their promises; ago, because it has been rising steadily over the past it is their conduct as well. This is what the Mayor of year or 18 months, and it remains a big concern. The London said—[Interruption.] number of people out of work for more than a year is continuing to rise. Does he agree that the longer young Mr Speaker: Order. It will just take longer to get in people remain out of work, the greater the damage not the Back Benchers who wish to participate, as opposed just now, but to their long-term prospects and to our to shouting and screaming in a juvenile fashion, because economy? I will have to extend the session. The Leader of the Opposition will be heard and the Prime Minister will be The Prime Minister: Of course the right hon. Gentleman heard. That is the end of it. is right. The longer that people are out of work, the worse it is for them and for our economy. That is why Edward Miliband: This is what the Mayor of London, we have the youth contract and the Work programme, the Prime Minister’s new best mate, said last year at the which is the biggest back-to-work programme since the Conservative party conference: war. He mentions the problem of long-term unemployment. “I reckon we need to…make it clear that if people swear at the I just remind him that in the last two years of the police then they must expect to be arrested.”—[Interruption.] Labour Government, long-term unemployment almost The Chief Whip from a sedentary position says that he doubled. We should hear about that before we get a did not. Maybe he will tell us what he actually did say, lecture. On helping young people, it is noticeable that which he has failed to do. under this Government, 900,000 people have started Yet according to the official police report, apprenticeships. We are backing apprenticeship schemes “a man claiming to be the Chief Whip” and reforming our schools and welfare system, so that it called the police “plebs”, told them they should know pays for people to get jobs. their place and used other abusive language. Can the We face enormous economic challenges in this country. Prime Minister now tell us: did the Chief Whip use Nobody doubts that. We have to rebalance our economy those words? because the state sector was too big and the private sector was too small. Since the election, there have been The Prime Minister: What the Chief Whip did and 1 million new private sector jobs, which more than what the Chief Whip said were wrong. I am absolutely make up for the inevitable loss of jobs in the state clear about that, and I have been clear throughout. That sector. We have a huge amount more to do, but reform is why it is important that the Chief Whip apologised. welfare, reform our schools, boost our private sector, That apology has been accepted by the officer— and Britain can be a winner in the global race. [Interruption.] 315 Oral Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Oral Answers 316

Mr Speaker: Order. I said a moment ago that the earlier, let me remind him that employment is up by Leader of the Opposition must and would be heard. 212,000—that is a success. Unemployment is down The same goes for the Prime Minister. He must and will 50,000 this quarter—that is a success. The claimant be heard. count is down 4,000—that is a success. Typical! He comes to this House and he has written out his clever The Prime Minister: What the Chief Whip did and political questions, but he does not care what is really said was wrong, and that is why it is important that he happening in our economy. apologised, and apologised properly. That apology has been accepted by the officer concerned, and it has been Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): Over two accepted by the head of the Metropolitan police. That is weeks ago, April Jones, a five-year-old little girl, was why this Government will get on with the big issues of abducted when playing with her friends in Machynlleth helping Britain compete and succeed in the world. in my constituency, a very quiet, always well-behaved town. Will my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister join Edward Miliband: No straight answers on police numbers, me in paying tribute to the truly amazing way in which and no straight answers on the Chief Whip. [Interruption.] the people of Machynlleth, the Dyfed-Powys police and The Under-Secretary of State for Wales says that we the mountain rescue teams have come together and need real issues, but I think abusing police officers is a committed to the ongoing search for April? real issue. Just because a police officer has better manners than the Chief Whip, it does not mean that the Chief The Prime Minister: I will certainly join my hon. Whip should keep his job. Friend in doing that. I think the whole country has not If a yob in a city centre on a Saturday night abused a only been shocked by these appalling events, but that police officer, ranting and raving, the chances are that frankly it has been lifted and incredibly impressed by they would be arrested and placed in the back of a the response of the community in Machynlleth, and police van, and rightly so. The Prime Minister would be everything that everybody has done to help the police the first in the queue to say that it was right. But while it and the emergency services. We have seen a whole is a night in the cell for the yobs, it is a night at the community come together, not just in grief but in action Carlton club for the Chief Whip. Is that not the clearest to help this family, and it is a huge credit to everyone case there could be of total double standards? involved.

The Prime Minister: This apology has been accepted Q3. [122162] Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): by the police officer, and it has been accepted by the At the Prime Minister’s energy summit last year, he head of the Metropolitan police. It is clearly not going promised faithfully that he would take action to help to be accepted by the Leader of the Opposition, who people reduce their energy bills. Will he tell the House does not want to talk about what we need to do in this and the country: how is it going? country to get our deficit down because he has got no plans. He does not want to talk about how we build on The Prime Minister: We have encouraged people to our record in employment, because he has got no plans. switch, which is one of the best ways to get energy bills He does not want to talk about how we reform welfare, down. I can announce, which I am sure the hon. Gentleman because he is opposed to welfare caps. That is the will welcome, that we will be legislating so that energy truth—he wants to discuss these issues because he has companies have to give the lowest tariff to their nothing serious to say about the country. customers—something that Labour did not do in 13 years, even though the Leader of the Labour party could have Edward Miliband: Here is the most extraordinary done it because he had the job. thing: the Government say that I practise class war, and they go around calling people plebs. Can you believe it? Several hon. Members rose— I have to say, it is good to see the Cabinet in their place supporting the Chief Whip in public, but from the Mr Speaker: Question 4 is a closed question. newspapers, what are they saying in private? That he is “completely undermined”and that his position is untenable. Nuclear Deterrent In other words, he’s toast. That is the reality. Here is the truth about this Government: while everybody else loses Q4. [122163] Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): their jobs, the Chief Whip keeps his. If you are a Whether he remains committed to the continuation of millionaire you get a tax cut, if you are everybody else the UK’s Trident nuclear deterrent after the Vanguard you get a tax rise. [Interruption.] submarines are withdrawn from service.

Mr Speaker: Order. Mr Kawczynski, I am very worried The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend will be delighted about your health. You are shouting in a bizarre manner. to know that the answer is yes, we are committed to Calm yourself, man, and get a grip. retaining an independent nuclear deterrent based on the Trident missile system. That is why we have continued Edward Miliband: Maybe he will tell us whether he is with the programme to replace the Vanguard class getting the tax cut. submarines, including placing initial design contracts The Government are totally out of touch. With this with BAE Systems. Government, it is one rule for those at the top, another rule for everybody else. Dr Lewis: That is indeed an excellent answer. Given that a part-time nuclear deterrent would be dangerously The Prime Minister: Now we know that the right hon. destabilising, will the Prime Minister confirm that the Gentleman wrote those questions yesterday, before British Trident successor submarines must and will unemployment fell. Because he obviously was not listening operate on the basis of continuous at-sea deterrence? 317 Oral Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Oral Answers 318

The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely Q7. [122166] Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): My right to raise this issue. One of the key elements of the constituent, Aaron Moon, lost his leg in Afghanistan. credibility of our deterrent has been that it is continuously He then lost his disability living allowance. The Prime at sea, and the Royal Navy takes immense pride in Minister promised to look after ex-servicemen and having been able to deliver that without a break over so women. What has happened? many years. I have met some of the crews and visited some of the submarines. What they do is incredibly The Prime Minister: I have insisted on a specific impressive and I pay tribute to them for the service that carve-out from the new personal independence payment they provide. Yes, being continuously at sea is a key part for limbless ex-servicemen, and they will be separately of our deterrent. looked after through the Ministry of Defence.

Engagements Q8. [122167] Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): The House agrees that negative campaigning deliberately designed to scare vulnerable people Q5. [122164] Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): In a parliamentary answer to my hon. Friend the Member demeans politics. A campaign to “Save Our Hospital” for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) yesterday, the Government when the hospital is not closing is possibly the worst said: example that I have ever seen. Does my right hon. Friend agree that Labour’s campaign in Corby and east “we remain very concerned by continuing reports of Rwandan Northamptonshire is an absolute disgrace? support for the M23 rebels”—[Official Report, 15 October 2012; Vol. 551, c. 74W.]— The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is entirely right. who are killing, maiming and raping in eastern Congo. Labour MP after Labour MP is trooping up to Corby Why then did the Government Chief Whip authorise and claiming that the hospital is not safe when they the payment of £16 million of British taxpayers’ money know that that it is simply not true. The local newspaper to Rwanda, as his parting shot on his last day as is now backing up the fact that the hospital is being International Development Secretary? invested in by this Government, because unlike the party opposite—[Interruption.] Yes, the right hon. Member The Prime Minister: First, may I wish the hon. Gentleman for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls) is over there on the happy birthday for yesterday? He was seen celebrating Opposition Benches. You know what? He is going to it, and I would like to join in that— [Interruption.] Iam stay there for a very, very long time. The reason he will sorry I was not invited. stay there is the reason why this country is in a mess—it The hon. Gentleman raises a very important point. I is because of the borrowing, the spending and the debt am clear: Rwanda has been, and continues to be, a that he delivered. His answer is more borrowing, more success story of a country that has gone from genocide spending and more debt, so he should get himself and disaster to being a role model for development and comfortable. lifting people out of poverty in Africa. I am proud of the fact that the last Government, and this Government, Q9. [122168] Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Why will have continued to invest in that success. But I am the Prime Minister not—[Interruption.] Iamover equally clear that we should be very frank and firm with here. Why will the Prime Minister not publish all the President Kagame and the Rwandan regime that we do texts, e-mails and other forms of correspondence not accept that they should be supporting militias in the between himself and his office and Rebekah Brooks, Congo or elsewhere. I have raised that issue personally Andy Coulson and News International, so that we can with the President, but I continue to believe that investing judge whether they are relevant? Is it because they are in Rwanda’s success, as one of those countries in Africa too salacious and embarrassing for the Prime Minister? that is showing that the cycle of poverty can be broken [Interruption.] I would not smile if I was him; when and that conditions for its people can be improved, is the truth comes out, he will not be smiling. Or will he something we are right to do. not publish the correspondence because there is one rule for him and another for the rest of us? Q6. [122165] John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): Today, unemployment figures show a reduction of 62,000 in The Prime Minister: Mr Speaker, before answering the number of 16 to 24-year-olds who were out of work this question, I would like hon. Members to recall that in the three months to August, and that employment is the hon. Gentleman stood up in the House and read out now at its highest level since records began in 1971. I a whole lot of Leveson information that was under am sure the Prime Minister will want to commend this embargo and that he was not meant to read out, much Government’s economic policies to the whole House, of which about me turned out to be untrue, and he has rather than having more borrowing and spending from never apologised. Do you know what? Until he apologises, the Opposition. I am not going to answer his questions—[Interruption.]

The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an important Mr Speaker: Order. I hope the House will have the point. What we need is a rebalancing of the economy. self-restraint and courtesy to hear Mr Bebb. We need growth in our private sector, and it is notable that we have a million new private sector jobs since the Q10. [122169] Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): Thank last election. That has more than made up for the job you, Mr Speaker. Employment levels in Wales have losses in the public sector. There is more we need to do increased by 40,000 in the last quarter, not least to tackle youth and long-term unemployment, but today’s because of the contribution of self-employment. Will figures should be welcomed. the Prime Minister therefore join me in welcoming the 319 Oral Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Oral Answers 320 extension of the new enterprise allowance, which has The Prime Minister: I am delighted to answer the already resulted in the creation of more than 8,000 new hon. Gentleman’s question in the most positive way I businesses? can. I am pleased that we have reached an agreement with the Scottish Government to have a single, simple The Prime Minister: I will certainly join my hon. question in a referendum that must be held before the Friend in that. This is an important announcement, end of 2014, so that we can put beyond doubt the future because the new enterprise allowance gives people who of the United Kingdom. I hope that everyone will vote become unemployed the chance to set up their own to keep the UK together. I know that it will have business and enterprise. Under the current rules, people cross-party support, and I hope that politicians of all must wait three months before being able to access that parties will agree to share platforms. I have always programme, but under our plans, they will be able to wanted to share a platform with Ian Paisley. Maybe I access it from day one of becoming unemployed. I want will get my chance. to see many more new businesses started up in our country to build on the record of last year, when more Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con): Recently, businesses were established in Britain than in any year a lap-dancing club in Ampthill, a rural market town in in our recent history. my constituency, has been granted a licence. The one thing that residents of Mid Bedfordshire have learned is Q11. [122170] Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): that it does not matter whether it is a Wembley-sized When in opposition, the Prime Minister said: incinerator or a lap-dancing club in a beautiful market “all too often, when you put the questions to the Minister, the town, the wishes of local people have absolutely no answer is pretty much a ‘not me guv’ shrug of the shoulders…There weight in planning law. Does the Prime Minister agree is a serious accountability problem with our political system.” that it is time we amended planning law, so that, when Which of his Cabinet Ministers will take responsibility catastrophic applications come forward that blight the for the fiasco of the west coast main line? environment people live in and which greatly distress them, their views and voice are heard? The Prime Minister: The Transport Secretary came to the House and made a full statement and gave a full The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend speaks for apology for what had happened. I must ask the House many people about the frustration that the planning this: can we remember a Labour Minister ever apologising system can sometimes deliver. I would make two points for anything? Anyone? None! [Interruption.] about where we are making progress. First, we have changed the licensing laws to give the planners Mr Speaker: Order. I call Sir Nick Harvey. greater power to alter licences, and I believe that that can apply to the sorts of premises to which she refers. Sir Nick Harvey (North Devon) (LD): Returning to Secondly, of course, under our plans, people can write the Trident issue, has the Prime Minister looked at the neighbourhood plans, which give far greater control to severe cost pressures facing defence at the very moment residents over the shape of their future community. the Trident replacement has to be paid for? Joint strike I encourage her, however, to take up the specific issue fighter airplanes, Type 26 frigates, unmanned aircraft with the Department for Communities and Local and Army vehicles all need paying for at much the same Government, to see whether there is more that we time. This has to come out of the defence budget, and can do. austerity will be with us for some time yet, so will he keep an open mind about how exactly to replace our Q13. [122172] Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab): nuclear deterrent? I thank both Front Benches for their tributes to Fiona The Prime Minister: All the things that my hon. Bone and Nicola Hughes, who were murdered in Friend lists are programmes that are fully funded and Greater Manchester recently. On the theme of policing, will be properly invested in, because, as he well knows— as the House has heard, the Home Office admits that because he played a major role in it—the Government nearly 7,000 front-line police personnel have now have sorted out the defence budget. Having carefully disappeared from our system. The Prime Minister considered the issue of the nuclear deterrent, I do not promised that that would not be the case, and the believe that we would save money by adopting an public do not want it, so will he give a straightforward alternative nuclear deterrent posture. Also, if we are to answer to what I think will be my last question to him have a nuclear deterrent, it makes sense to ensure we in the House and give a commitment that there will be have something that is credible and believable, otherwise no more cuts to policing in England and Wales, there is no point in having one at all. whatever happens in the budgetary process?

Q12. [122171] Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): The Prime Minister: Of course, no one wants to There are record levels of support for the British prejudge the wisdom of the Greater Manchester electorate, Union. The Prime Minister will know that according to but I wish the hon. Gentleman well, if he is successful. I a recent poll only 7% of the populace of Northern make to him the point that I hope the chief constable of Ireland want a united Ireland, and that only rises to his own force will make to him. It was made very 32% in 20 years, if the question is asked then. Does he effectively when Chief Constable Fahy of Greater agree that, following the agreement he signed up to this Manchester police said that week to ensure that a single, decisive question is asked “the effectiveness of policing cannot be measured by the number on the Scottish and British Union, it is now up to him of officers…but by reductions in crime”. and the House to unite in a campaign to maintain, Crime in Greater Manchester is down 12%. We need to sustain and support the Union, and keep MacNeil and recognise that there are difficult decisions. Frankly, the Wishart with us forever? Labour party was committed to even greater cuts in 321 Oral Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Oral Answers 322 police budgets than we have delivered. The key is this: if there were a referendum on Britain’s continued can we crack down on paperwork, can we help get the membership of the EU, he would vote to leave. A third police out on the beat, can we help them do the job they of the Cabinet agree with him. How would the Prime do and can we cut crime? The answer, in this case, is, Minister vote? “Yes, we can.” The Prime Minister: As I said, I do not want an in/out Q14. [122173] Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): referendum, because I am not happy with us leaving the May I join the Prime Minister and the Leader of the European Union, but I am not happy with the status Opposition in paying tribute to Malcolm Wicks, whose quo either. I think what the vast majority of this country memorial service is at Croydon minster this Friday? He wants is a new settlement with Europe and then that was an outstanding local MP, a thoughtful, decent man settlement being put to fresh consent. That is what will and a good friend. Is not one way in which we can be going in our manifesto, and I think it will get a honour his memory to continue to improve our ringing endorsement from the British people. national health service, so that more and more people beat cancer and do not have their lives so tragically cut Mr Speaker: Last but not least, Sir Tony Baldry. short? Q15. [122174] Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Does my right hon. Friend agree that there was no structural The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend speaks for the deficit at the top of the boom, as claimed by the whole House in what he says about Malcolm Wicks. I shadow Chancellor? understand that he often used to drive Malcolm home to Croydon after the vote—I think Malcolm referred to The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an important his car as “the cab”. The fare apparently was a bottle of point, which is this. The IMF report out this week wine at Christmas time—we will make sure the Inland shows that the structural deficit in 2007, at the height of Revenue lays off that, but it was a very good arrangement the boom, was 5% of our GDP, or £73 billion. The between Members. shadow Chancellor said there was no structural deficit. My hon. Friend is absolutely right: one of the greatest I think this really demonstrates just how little Labour things we can do to remember Malcolm is to ensure the has learnt. We have talked about our plans for the continued success of the cancer drugs fund, which has British economy—how we are going to help it compete helped over 20,000 people, and make sure that people and succeed. We know Labour’s plans for this weekend: can get urgent treatments, as well as urgent drugs. to go on a giant march with its trade union paymasters. That is how the Leader of the Opposition is going to be Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): The spending his weekend—on the most lucrative sponsored Secretary of State for Education said this weekend that walk in history. 323 17 OCTOBER 2012 324

Points of Order Relationship, Drug and Alcohol Education (Curriculum) 12.37 pm Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): On a point No. 23) of order, Mr Speaker. Youwill remember the extensive— [Interruption.] 12.40 pm Diana Johnson ( North) (Lab): I Mr Speaker: Order. I am sorry, but before the hon. beg to move, Gentleman proceeds with his point of order, may I ask That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require the Secretary of Members who are—perhaps unaccountably—leaving State to make provision to include relationship, drug and alcohol the Chamber to do so quickly and quietly, affording the education in the national curriculum; and for connected purposes. same courtesy to the hon. Gentleman that they would Growing up today is full of wonderful opportunities wish to be extended to them under comparable and freedoms for our young people, but it is also circumstances? probably the most challenging time ever to be a young person faced with questions such as, “My mates are Dr Lewis: Thank you as always, Mr Speaker. You will drinking; should I drink and, if so, how much?”, “What remember the long campaign, successfully waged three are legal highs, and are they safe just because they are years ago, to change the law so that the home addresses legal?” and “What does a healthy relationship look like?” of Members of Parliament would never be disclosed as Like many hon. Members, I believe that the role of a result of freedom of information requests. A number education involves much more than simply teaching a of colleagues from both sides of the House have approached limited range of academic subjects. It has a powerful me about a freedom of information request that those role in preparing and equipping young people for life by colleagues who, unlike me, rent their homes should have giving them the knowledge and skills to deal with the their landlords’ names disclosed. There is concern that complexities of living in a modern, fast-changing world. this could breach the security of MPs’ home addresses. We need to recognise that, along with support from Can you tell us what action you propose to take in this parents and families, schools have a vital part to play in matter? producing confident, well-informed young people. I am pleased to bring forward this Bill, with its focus Mr Speaker: I am extremely grateful to the hon. on relationship, drug and alcohol education, as I believe Gentleman. I well remember the events of three years that these are key areas for all our young people growing ago and more, in which he was closely involved. I note up. We can show that well-planned, coherent and effective the point of order that he has raised. He will be aware education programmes on drugs, alcohol and relationships that we do not discuss security matters on the Floor of can work. There is evidence that specific programmes the House. That said, I am very conscious of this can have a measurable impact on young people’s behaviour, current issue, to which he has drawn attention. It might in regard to the use of alcohol, tobacco and cannabis. be helpful to him and the House to know that I share Programmes such as “Relationships without fear”—a some of the very real concerns that have been expressed school-based intervention programme on developing across the House by Members, and I wrote—in, I hope, healthy relationships and challenging domestic violence— courteous but explicit terms—on this matter yesterday can be shown to prevent domestic abuse by giving to the chairman of the Independent Parliamentary young people the knowledge, skills and advice to enable Standards Authority. If Members wish to see my letter, them to deal with abusive relationships. they are most welcome to do so; a copy might usefully We also know, however, that fear-based approaches be placed in the Library of the House. I will keep my that just give information without addressing the social eye on the situation on behalf of Members. context of drugs, for example, are not effective. Young people need the opportunity to consider, reflect on, Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): On a point of evaluate, discuss and reach conclusions about drugs, order, Mr Speaker. The Prime Minister comes to the alcohol and relationships in a safe, educational environment. Chamber at 12 noon each Wednesday to answer Prime We came close to making those subjects compulsory in Minister’s questions. Is it in order to for him to say that the Children, Schools and Families Act 2010 under the he refuses to answer a question? previous Labour Government, but the Conservatives blocked the introduction of those provisions in the Mr Speaker: It is entirely up to Ministers how they wash-up before the 2010 general election. When the respond to the questions posed. I understand the concern coalition came into government, it instigated a review and frustration that underlies the hon. Gentleman’s of personal, social and health education, but the review point of order, but the responsibilities and powers of concluded nearly a year ago and the Government have the Chair are not engaged on the matter. The House can still produced no proposals. Indeed, in the Government’s make its own assessment, and everyone else can do so as recent guidance on drugs and alcohol, they have specifically well. removed advice to schools about drug and alcohol education. Why do I want to make these subjects compulsory? The main reason is to ensure that training will be made available for teachers and that resources will be allocated. For too long, many PSHE teachers have been talked into teaching this subject as an add-on to their main subject area, without having any specialist training or knowledge. We know that there is a mixed picture 325 Relationship, Drug and Alcohol 17 OCTOBER 2012 Relationship, Drug and Alcohol 326 Education (Curriculum) Education (Curriculum) across the country, with some good practice and some relationships is currently within the science curriculum, that is not so good, but all our pupils deserve access to and it relates to reproduction, anatomy and the spread good quality PSHE. of infections. For many years, parents have asked for The Bill would ensure that all children had access to relationship education to be included alongside the good quality, age-appropriate education in relationships, science. A recent mumsnet poll showed that 90% of drugs and alcohol throughout their education. Such respondents want relationships and sex education made topics would no longer be treated as trivial or as an compulsory in secondary schools. Some schools have add-on. Experts say that good quality education in this provided very good relationships education, working area can be achieved by one hour a week of the curriculum together with parents. The best example I have seen was being devoted to the subject, and I believe that it could in a Roman Catholic primary school in inner London, be incorporated into the curriculum fairly easily. teaching children about healthy relationships, building up children’s confidence and self-esteem in an age- Turning to the specific issue of drugs and alcohol, we appropriate way. know that 60% of drugs education involves less than one hour per pupil a year. It is often of poor quality, Just to challenge the myths, let me say that we know incomplete or, at worst, totally irrelevant. The charity high-quality sex and relationships education does not Mentor has reported that some 16-year-olds are getting encourage young people to become sexually active. We the same lessons as 11-year-olds. In the week that the know through international research that good relationships UK Drug Policy Commission published its report after education will delay the age at which a young person six years of research, one of the key recommendations starts a sexual relationship. Particularly importantly, in made was the need for prevention work through good the light of the horrific stories we have heard in recent drugs education in schools, best delivered through evidence- weeks of children being abused in the Jimmy Savile based life skills programmes. scandal, we know that SRE can equip children and young people with the language and skills to understand I want to mention particularly the need for education appropriate and inappropriate behaviour and relationships, about new drugs—often known as legal highs or club to be able to resist pressure and to know who to talk to drugs. Twenty-eight new legal highs were identified in and how to access help and support when they need it. the first five months of 2012. How many hon. Members I also want to refer to the shocking statistic from the would know what to say if they were asked about National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children “meow meow” and how it affects people? Most people that one in three young women in a relationship have do not know about club drugs and their effects, or, more suffered abuse. We need to instil confidence in our importantly, their effects if taken with alcohol. young people, and especially young women, about what Yesterday morning, I attended the launch of the a healthy relationship looks like. The End Violence Angelus Foundation’s “Find out”campaign. The Angelus Against Women Coalition has launched the excellent Foundation was set up after the death of Hester Stewart, campaign “schoolsafe4girls”. It recognises that harassment who took a legal high, GBL. The foundation’s aim is to and abuse of women and girls is widespread and that raise awareness of the risks of using legal highs and schools have a unique and critical role to play in addressing club drugs, working alongside the Amy Winehouse harmful attitudes and abusive behaviour. The coalition Foundation. In a poll conducted by the Angelus is calling for schools, parents, students and the Government Foundation, it was found that 45% of 16 to 24-year-olds to work together to ensure that all girls are safe. admitted to having been offered legal highs and 67% did This Bill has cross-party support and support from not feel well informed about the risks, while 86% of many leading charities and organisations, including Brook, parents lacked the knowledge to warn their children the Family Planning Association, Adfam, the Angelus about legal highs. Foundation, the End Violence Against Women Coalition, At yesterday’s launch, Maryon Stewart, the founder Mentor, Alchol Concern, Turning Point and many others. of the Angelus Foundation, and Mitch Winehouse Those organisations recognise the importance to society both spoke passionately of the need for our schools of educating our young people, which can have a huge to educate our young people about drugs and legal impact in preventing social problems from developing. highs, and particularly about the new drugs and the I am pleased to see that the new Under-Secretary of club drugs. Families and parents do not have the State for Education, the hon. Member for South West information to give to young people, while young people (Elizabeth Truss), is present. I am sure that she themselves are desperate to know more. A year 8 pupil, will take particular account of the fact that although we when asked what he would like to be taught about cannot protect young people from every danger, we can drugs, told Mentor, “Everything,” as “barely anything equip them better at school and tilt the odds in their favour. is taught.” This is a sensible Bill. It is evidence-based, and I As for alcohol, an Ofsted report of 2010 said that believe that it will have a real, positive effect on young students’ knowledge about its social and physical effects people’s lives and on society in general. was rudimentary in about half of the secondary schools Question put and agreed to. Ofsted had visited, yet the Government’s own alcohol strategy refers to the importance of teaching PSHE— Ordered, personal, social, health and economic education—to That Diana Johnson, Mrs Sharon Hodgson, Chris help them in their aim to reduce alcohol consumption Bryant, Barbara Keeley, Roberta Blackman-Woods, Kate amongst young people. It is worrying to note that in the Green, Andrew Percy, Annette Brooke, Lyn Brown and new, revised science national curriculum, all reference Nic Dakin present the Bill. to alcohol, drugs and tobacco has been removed. Diana Johnson accordingly presented the Bill. Finally, on relationship education, the only compulsory Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on education our young people receive in terms of sex and Friday 9 November and to be printed (Bill 73). 327 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 328 Bill Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill by any act, or any deliberate failure to act, by a person other than his employer done on the ground that worker has made the [2ND ALLOCATED DAY] disclosure. Further consideration of Bill, as amended in the Public (2) Regulations under this section— Bill Committee. (a) are to be made by statutory instrument, and New Clause 8 (b) are not to be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, TRIBUNAL PROCEDURE: MISCELLANEOUS each House of Parliament.’. ‘(1) The Employment Tribunals Act 1996 is amended as Amendment 80, in clause 7, page 4, line 13, at end follows. insert— (2) In section 9 (pre-hearing reviews and preliminary matters), ‘(1) Prior to the commencement of this section, the Secretary in subsection (2) (deposit orders), in paragraph (a)— of State shall carry out an impact assessment into the effect of (a) omit “, if he wishes to continue to participate in those the introduction of proposed fees for the employment tribunal proceedings,”; system and the impact this will have on the effectiveness of (b) after “an amount not exceeding £1,000” insert “as a ACAS conciliation proceedings.’. condition of— Government amendments 6 and 7. (i) continuing to participate in those proceedings, or Amendment 51, page 5, line 43, at end insert— (ii) pursuing any specified allegations or arguments”. ‘(e) preventing an employer or ex-employer of a prospective (3) In section 13A (payments in respect of preparation time)— Claimant from applying for costs against the prospective (a) in subsection (3), after “shall also” insert “, subject to Claimant under the Employment Tribunal Rules or subsection (4),”; other measures to provide an incentive to employers (b) after subsection (3) insert— or ex-employers to take part in the conciliation process.’. “(4) Subsection (3) does not require the regulations to include Amendment 52, in clause 11, page 7, line 27, after (2) provision to prevent an employment tribunal from making— insert (a) an order of the kind mentioned in subsection (1), and ‘With the consent of the parties but not otherwise.’. (b) an award of the kind mentioned in section 13(1)(a) Amendment 53, page 7, leave out lines 29 to 38. that is limited to witnesses’ expenses.” Amendment 54, page 8, leave out lines 1 to 10. (4) In section 42 (interpretation), in subsection (1), after the definition of “employment tribunal procedure regulations” Amendment 81, leave out clause 12. insert— Government amendments 8 to 10. ““representative” shall be construed in accordance Amendment 82, leave out clause 13. with section 6(1) (in Part 1) or section 29(1) (in Part 2),”.’.—(Jo Swinson.) Government amendments 11 to 13. Brought up, and read the First time. Amendment 70, in clause 13, page 9, leave out line 15. Government amendment 14. 12.52 pm Amendment 71, page 9, line 32, leave out The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, ‘in whatever way the Secretary of State thinks fit’ Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson): I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time. and insert ‘by the Secretary of State following consultation with the TUC Mr Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss and CBI’. the following: Government amendment 15. New clause 1—Removal of requirement for protected Amendment 58, leave out clause 14. disclosures to be made in good faith— Amendment 59, in clause 14, page 10, line 11, at end ‘The Employment Rights Act 1996 is amended as follows: insert— ‘(1) Omit “in good faith”— ‘(c) and where the employer employs in excess of 10 (a) in section 43C (Disclosures qualifying for protection), employees at the time of the claim first being in subsection (1), submitted to ACAS as per section 18A of this Act,’. (b) in section 43E (Disclosure to Minister of the Crown), Amendment 92, page 10, line 14, at end insert— in paragraph (b), and (c) in section 43F (Disclosure to prescribed person), in ‘(1A) The Secretary of State shall by regulations provide for an subsection (1)(a). employer to pay a penalty to the Secretary of State for each period of time (as specified in those regulations) that passes (2) Omit “makes the disclosure in good faith, during which an award of compensation under Part X of the (b) he”— Employment Rights Act 1996 has not yet been paid by the (a) in section 43G (Disclosure in other cases), in employer.’. subsection (1), and Amendment 72, page 10, line 17, leave out from (b) in section 43H (Disclosure of exceptionally serious ‘£5,000’ until end of line 4 on page 11. failure), in subsection (1).’. Amendment 83, page 10, leave out lines 20 to 25. New clause 2—Duty on employers to prevent detriment caused by others to workers who have made protected Amendment 73, page 11, line 47, after ‘Fund’, insert disclosures— ‘to be spent with the objective of promoting awareness of employment rights and promoting training for employment.’. ‘(1) The Secretary of State shall make regulations requiring an employer, where a worker has made a protected disclosure under Amendment 94, in clause 15, page 12, line 4, leave out section 43A of the Employment Rights Act 1996, to take reasonable from ‘(protection),’ to end of line 5, and insert ‘after steps to ensure that the worker is not subjected to any detriment subsection (2), insert— 329 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 330 Bill Bill ‘(2A) The disclosure of information relating to a private management. Enabling judges to make better-targeted contractual matter to which the person making the disclosure is deposit orders will give both parties a clear sense of party is not a qualifying disclosure unless the worker making the where they should focus their efforts, encouraging a disclosure reasonably believes it to be made in the public more realistic approach to settlement, and I believe that interest.”.’. it will also lead to greater use of such orders. Government amendments 16, 17 and 31. The second change relates to the recoverability of Amendment 57, in schedule 2, page 65, line 22, leave witness expenses for people who choose to represent out ‘one month’ and insert ‘six months’. themselves at tribunals and seek a preparation time order in respect of their work on the case. An oddity in Jo Swinson: New clause 8 will introduce sensible the current costs regime places people who represent changes to the employment tribunal rules of procedure themselves at tribunals at a disadvantage, as a tribunal recommended by Mr Justice Underhill. I shall say more cannot make a costs order for witness expenses and a about the effect of those changes shortly. A number of preparation time order in respect of the same party. We other new clauses and amendments have been tabled are amending the Employment Tribunals Act 1996 to both by the Government and by other Members, and I remove that unnecessary restriction. shall attempt to address them—as well as new clause 8—as The final change deals with the recoverability of lay comprehensively but as succinctly as possible. As Members representatives’ costs. Mr Justice Underhill considered will know, part 2 was subjected to thorough scrutiny by that those who chose to be represented by a non-lawyer, the hon. Member for South (Ian Murray) and who had paid for that service and advice, should and his Committee colleagues, and all the clauses were not be put at a disadvantage when a tribunal concluded accepted unamended. that the other party’s conduct meant that a costs order Contrary to some of the views expressed in Committee, was warranted. I agree that those who choose to engage these measures do nothing to affect an individual’s lay representatives rather than lawyers should not be employment rights. Instead, they deliver on the disadvantaged when it comes to the award of costs, and Government’s commitment to giving businesses more I intend to use the existing powers in section 13 of the confidence to take on new staff and grow. We know that Employment Tribunals Act to change the rules of procedure employment tribunals are a continuing cause of concern in order to allow for such costs orders. The new clause for businesses and, indeed, employees, and I should be helps to clarify the scope of section 13 by introducing a surprised if Opposition Front-Benchers tried to argue definition of the word “representative”. that all is working swimmingly at present. The measures Let me now deal with new clauses 1 and 2, tabled by in part 2 are designed to alleviate the fears and problems the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy by encouraging the earliest possible resolution of disputes, Clark), which amend clause 15. Along with the organisation facilitating settlement agreements to help businesses to Public Concern at Work, she has been a powerful manage their staff more effectively, and ensuring that advocate on this subject, and we discussed it recently the tribunal system itself operates efficiently for all during a Westminster Hall debate that she had initiated. users. I think we can all agree that, in an ideal world, Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) legislation for whistleblowing would not be needed at (Lab): Will the Minister give way? all. In such a world, all employers would be open and receptive when an issue was raised, and would not seek to silence or drive out a person who brought important Jo Swinson: I will in due course, but I want to make a matters to their attention. However, as we know, such bit of progress first. enlightened approaches to whistleblowing are not universal, I welcome this opportunity to set out the changes so legal protection is required. We are equally keen to that we have proposed and respond to those made by ensure that the protection offered by the public interest others, continuing the work of my predecessor to bring disclosure legislation is not abused by those who seek to reform to the employment tribunal system. Let me rely on it for purely self-interested reasons. Clause 15, begin by explaining the amendments that we are making which has already been debated in Committee, will through new clause 8, which will amend existing provisions ensure that the whistleblowing provisions cannot be in the Employment Tribunals Act 1996. used to advance purely personal interests. Following his fundamental review of the rules of New clause 1 addresses a different aspect of the procedure for employment tribunals, Mr Justice Underhill public interest disclosure legislation. It proposes the made a number of recommendations about how the removal of the good faith test, which has been in place rules might be improved. In some instances, he felt that since the legislation was introduced. That would mean the primary legislation would need to be amended that individual whistleblowers would retain the benefit before desirable changes in the procedural rules could of employment protection even if their reasons for be made. These changes will help to achieve more blowing the whistle were malicious, if they deliberately effective and targeted case management which will benefit set out to cause commercial damage, or if they acted all tribunal users. out of a desire for personal revenge. The first change involves deposit orders. Tribunals There is clearly a balance to be struck. We are conscious can currently require a party to pay a deposit of up to of the recommendations of Dame Janet Smith’s inquiry £1,000 as a condition of continuing to proceed with a into the tragic circumstances of the Shipman case. She weak claim. However, a judge cannot currently use a suggested that the good faith test be removed to encourage deposit order to weed out the weak elements of a more whistleblowers to come forward. We also recognise particular claim, and must instead attach a deposit that the motivations of whistleblowers are not always order to the entire claim as a condition of proceeding. clear-cut. Personal feelings, particularly when a relationship That lack of flexibility does not aid effective case has broken down, sometimes make it difficult to understand 331 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 332 Bill Bill [Jo Swinson] In such cases, an employee could bring a claim for constructive dismissal. Taken as a whole, the Government the intentions of the person who is making a disclosure. believe that those protections strike the right balance in Having said that, I should add that, as we have already protecting whistleblowers without imposing unreasonable made clear, we believe that the legislation is working and unworkable demands on employers. well overall, and that the good faith test serves an Let me now deal with the amendments to clause 7. important purpose. The early conciliation regime that we are introducing We are also keen to avoid making a change that could will require prospective claimants to transmit details of allow individuals access to an uncapped award when their claim to ACAS in the prescribed manner. Where their motives for blowing the whistle were malicious, information is missing from an early conciliation form and I therefore do not believe that there is a clear-cut submitted by a prospective claimant, we think that case for removing the good faith test. However, I recognise there may be merit in allowing ACAS to obtain the that the hon. Lady has raised an important issue relating relevant details via the telephone. Our amendments 6 to this specific element of the public interest disclosure and 7 therefore propose the replacement of the words regime, and we will continue to look closely at the “send” and “sending” with “provide” and “providing” policy aims of the test to ensure that they are still being to give the flexibility needed to implement the best achieved. process for all parties. They are minor amendments and have no other effect on the early conciliation process Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): Does the debated in Committee, of which Opposition Members Minister agree that there is much more scope for were supportive. whistleblowing in this country, given the number of whistleblowers in America and the incentives that they are given to come forward? Does she agree that there Julian Smith: I am heartened by these amendments, may be more work for the Government to do in future because one of my concerns in Committee was that this months? process with ACAS could become far too formal. It is really important that as this early conciliation develops Jo Swinson: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. we make it as informal as possible. It is a positive thing that we have an environment where people, rightly, feel able to come forward and blow the Jo Swinson: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. whistle. The legislation that was enacted was important He rightly says that we want that process to be a and is generally working well. We are proposing small success, and enabling the technology of the telephone changes to it in this Bill, but it is absolutely important. to be used in it is a helpful, albeit minor, amendment. For the reasons that I outlined, that legal protection is necessary and we should be proud of the fact that we Opposition Members have tabled a number of have such legislation. amendments on the early conciliation process. Amendment 80 seeks to require the Secretary of State to consult on, and undertake an assessment of, the impact of the 1pm introduction of fee charging in employment tribunals The second proposal by the hon. Member for North on the effectiveness of early conciliation before commencing Ayrshire and Arran, new clause 2, seeks to put in place these provisions. Hon. Members will know that the a remedy for a whistleblower who has suffered some power to charge fees in tribunals is one that already sort of detriment, even where that has not been directly existed; we announced our intention to introduce fees in caused by the employer. As it stands, the wording of the employment tribunals in January 2011, and subsequently new clause suggests that an employer could be responsible consulted on the appropriate charging points and fee for the actions of any person who has caused detriment levels in December 2011. to a whistleblower, including people who have no connection to the employer. Yesterday, we discussed the vicarious We recognise that the introduction of fees to bring an liability provisions in the Equality Act 2010 that are employment tribunal claim may affect the behaviours of being repealed through this Bill, and the reasoning that both claimants and respondents, and that there may causes us to consider those unnecessary applies to this therefore be an impact on how parties elect to engage provision, too. It would therefore be inconsistent to with early conciliation. We considered the possible make these changes to the public interest disclosure impact as part of the assessment that accompanied the regime. As the hon. Lady knows, we had a good discussion announcement in November 2011 of our intention to on this matter in the Westminster Hall debate. introduce early conciliation—copies are in the Library It is important to note that a whistleblower does have of the House. As part of the implementation planning, protection and remedy in those circumstances. First, we will publish further impact assessments. The proposed where the employer incites or encourages co-workers to amendment would simply require us to replicate work engage in harassment it is likely that they will be liable, that we have already done and will continue to do, so I even if they do not carry out that activity themselves. am unable to support it. The amendment is unnecessary, Secondly, employers have a duty of care to their workers but I can give the assurance that we are, of course, to provide a workplace that is one of trust and confidence, continuing to take into account the impact that our and that is safe. Thirdly, where the abuse is particularly approach will have. grave or oppressive the employer can be found to be vicariously liable under the Protection from Harassment Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): I wonder how Act 1997. the Minister would deal with an issue that has been Finally, the law already provides a level of protection raised by the chair of ACAS, Ed Sweeney. He said that for those who argue that their employer has acted to the introduction of the fee structure could have an destroy the relationship of mutual trust and confidence. impact on the effectiveness of conciliation at ACAS. 333 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 334 Bill Bill Jo Swinson: As the hon. Gentleman will find if he Jo Swinson: I do recognise that there is genuine checks Hansard, I have just said that we recognise that concern, particularly in respect of the new fee regime. It our approach could have an impact; it may affect the is important that a remission regime is in place as well; behaviours of both claimants and respondents. We have it is important to point that out. However, the amendments already published an impact assessment, but we will would provide protection for people who are behaving keep this matter under review. Of course, if at a future in a vexatious and abusive manner. No matter which point a further change is necessary as a result, we will side of the dispute that occurs on, we should not be come back with it. The Bill does not need to provide for encouraging it. Where a claimant is behaving that consultation process, given that it is already ongoing. unreasonably—this is at the discretion of the tribunal—it would be inappropriate for employers to be prevented John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): We also from seeking a costs order if the tribunal considers that need to address the question of ACAS’s capacity to deal the claimant’s behaviour justifies such an order. with the extra cases—no matter how the process is run, their number will increase. Is there not an implication in Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab): If the Minister terms of extra resources, for ACAS to deal with what accepts that there are serious concerns about the could be an extra 100,000 cases a year? introduction of fees and its impact on access to justice, why does she not look at the case management powers in the interlocutory stage of case proceedings and perhaps Jo Swinson: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his expand deposit powers to act as a disincentive for intervention, which highlights the crucial role of ACAS vexatious claimants? That would not have an impact on in this area. My predecessor gave reassurances in access to justice as her Government’s proposals are Committee, but I say again that ACAS will be adequately having. resourced. It is absolutely essential that that is the case in order to deliver early conciliation. Indeed, I remind Jo Swinson: A range of measures in the Bill will help hon. Members that in his evidence to the Committee, to improve access to justice. Of course, the most important the chair of ACAS, Ed Sweeney, said that he was thing is to make sure that fewer people end up going to confident that the Government would make sure that employment tribunals in the first place. [Interruption.] ACAS will be adequately resourced. I am glad to be I have just discussed the measures on early conciliation, able to give that reassurance to the House. which is a much better way of resolving disputes. We Amendment 51 would add a power to make regulations also have measures on rapid resolution, which I will which would prevent an employer from seeking costs come on to deal with and which have been discussed in against an employee at tribunal, or from taking any Committee. Those are the ways of ensuring that people other measures that would incentivise employers to take are able to get the best resolution to their disputes. part in the conciliation process. Amendment 57 would Obviously there will still be a role for employment have the effect of providing those individuals bringing tribunals and there will be cases that, for whatever claims under a particular Act, whose limitation period reason, cannot be managed through those other, better would otherwise expire during the period of early options for resolving them. In imposing a fee, there will conciliation or within one month of the conciliation still be access to justice through the remission regime process ending, with an additional six months in which for those who are otherwise unable to afford it. to lodge their claim with the tribunal. John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): My I recognise the intent behind the amendments tabled amendment 51 seeks to prevent employers from applying by Opposition Members; they clearly share our belief for costs and using the provisions as an incentive to take that resolving disputes is best done between the parties, part in conciliation. Is the Minister saying that such a rather than at an employment tribunal—as, I believe, do power already exists in law and that she does not feel it those involved in the process. There has been broad should be codified? Or is she simply opposed to codifying it? support for the introduction of early conciliation, both in the House and from employers and employees, who recognise the benefits that it offers. It is the benefits—savings Jo Swinson: As far as I am aware—I am sure that in time and cost, and in the considerable stress of the inspiration will reach me if this is not the case—tribunals tribunal process—that will encourage parties to engage already have the power to impose costs, but the amendment in conciliation, rather than a change in the rules to would seek to limit the circumstances. Where proceedings prevent respondents from seeking a costs order. have been brought or conducted in a vexatious, abusive, disruptive or otherwise unreasonable manner, it is important The rules on costs orders are clear: costs may be that the tribunal route retains the discretion to award ordered by a tribunal where a party has acted vexatiously, costs. That happens in a tiny number of cases, because abusively, disruptively or otherwise unreasonably in even when a case reaches tribunal most people engage bringing or conducting proceedings. However, it is rare with it in a spirit of genuine concern and with a genuine that parties act in such a manner; the vast majority of problem, but there will be some cases in which a relationship cases are where there is a genuine disagreement between is vexatious or in which someone seeks to settle scores. the parties, which is why only 1,311 of these awards If that is the case, it is appropriate for costs to be were made in 2011-12. ordered in such a way. Let me turn now to amendment 57, the proposal to Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) amend the period for lodging a claim from one to six (PC): Do the Government recognise that the reason months for those whose limitation period would otherwise behind the amendments is the concern that many hon. expire during the early conciliation period or within one Members have that the Government’s plans will reduce month of the early conciliation process ending. The access to justice? amendment would affect only a small number of 335 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 336 Bill Bill [Jo Swinson] Members have fond memories of that—and none of the amendments changes the purpose or effect of the clause, individuals: those whose claim was brought under the which were accepted then. Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Opposition amendment 81 would remove clause 12 in Act 1992 and who had sent their claim to ACAS towards its entirety. It is worth going back to consider the the very end of the limitation period. original aim of the clause. It is aimed at helping employers We want all claimants to have the confidence to and employees come to a consensual end to employment engage meaningfully in early conciliation without the relationships that are just not working out by facilitating fear of running out of time to bring a claim. That is why the use of settlement agreements. A settlement agreement we have provided for all claimants to have a minimum offers potential benefits to employers and employees, of a month following the end of the early conciliation including a much quicker resolution than that offered period in which to lodge a claim, regardless of its by the tribunal, where the average time taken to resolve nature. It is difficult to see why individuals should a claim is 24 weeks. Employers have the security that require longer than a month to prepare and submit the they will not face a tribunal case that would distract necessary form to the tribunal, bearing in mind that them and other workers from their business activities, they will already have gone through the early conciliation and employees end up with the certainty of a cash process and have been considering the matter for some payment, avoid the time and stress of tribunal, and time, and it is even more difficult to see why such a leave with their head held high and possibly a reference. lengthy extension should apply to such a narrow range We want to encourage more businesses and individuals of claims. We want all people to be able to engage in to consider the use of settlement agreements as a viable early conciliation and to have the confidence to do so and potentially preferable means of parting ways than and, if it does not work, to pursue other options. I am an emotionally draining performance management or therefore unable to support amendments 80, 51 and 57. misconduct route or a costly and stressful employment tribunal. Opposition Members have proposed three amendments to clause 11, amendments 52, 53 and 54, which relate to the composition of the Employment Appeal Tribunal. 1.15 pm As my predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for The removal of clause 12 would maintain the current North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), explained in Committee legislative regime. Some might say that is no problem, as when a similar amendment was voted down, we believe settlement agreements will continue to be used by some it is right that when the issue under consideration is businesses, but it would demonstrate that we are not related solely to a point of law the matter should listening to what businesses say about what they want ordinarily be heard by a judge sitting alone. That is and need to increase their confidence to take on new always the case in the EAT, of course. However, when staff. We have heard many times through formal and the judge considers that there is merit in sitting with a informal consultation that finding ways to make it panel, they will be able to do that, and the Lord Chancellor easier to ending employment relationships that are not can also order it for specific proceedings. I am therefore working out would remove the fear factor of hiring. unable to support the proposed amendments. The removal of clause 12 would mean that, although we have been given a practical example of a measure that Government amendments 8, 9 and 10, to clause 12, would support business and support growth, we have provide for confidentiality of negotiations before the chosen not to take it. As a Minister at the Department termination of employment. Since the introduction of for Business, Innovation and Skills, it is my role to the clause in Committee, my Department has sought support growth, not hinder it. and received feedback from a number of key stakeholders. Some, including the Employment Lawyers Association Julian Smith: I am heartened that the Minister is not and some business representative groups, told us that seeking to make any changes to the clause. Is she the original wording of subsection (1), which stated that surprised that the Opposition are so unenthusiastic employment tribunals should not take account of offers about helping the 4.5 million small businesses that will of settlement in their deliberations, could be open to benefit from the clause? misconception and misunderstanding. Although the Government believe that the original drafting of the Jo Swinson: It is intriguing, given the experience of clause would have the desired effect—namely putting Opposition Front Benchers as employment lawyers. It an offer of settlement outside the deliberations of the is worth bearing in mind that compromise agreements employment tribunal in unfair dismissal cases—we wish already exist and existed for 13 years under the previous to allay those fears and are amending the drafting of Government. They have a lot of merit, but tend to be subsection (1) for the purposes of clarity and the avoidance used by large firms in particular—large firms, which of doubt. Subsection (5) is rendered unnecessary by can afford to employ expensive employment lawyers. that redrafting, so amendment 10 is a consequential Small and medium-sized companies often feel very amendment to remove it. In the proposed amended afraid of taking on such conversations and that is what clause, just as in the original, employment tribunals will we are seeking to address. remain able to consider an offer of settlement in claims I recognise that there are concerns about how the being brought on other grounds. clause might work in practice and what safeguards Amendment 9 does nothing more than reflect the there may be for individuals, many of which my colleague, difference in terminology between tribunals in Scotland, my hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk, addressed where the term “expenses”is used in employment tribunal in some detail in Committee. I strongly believe that in proceedings, and those in England and Wales, where the clause 12 we have found the right balance between term “costs” is used. Clause 12 was debated at some protecting individuals and giving employers the flexibility length in Committee—I have no doubt that Opposition and confidence they need to manage their businesses 337 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 338 Bill Bill effectively. It is about balance. The settlement agreements Ian Murray: The Minister is being incredibly generous measure provides a mutually beneficial solution for in taking our interventions. Does she not accept that employers and employees as regards ending the employment settlement agreements, while they can be used where relationship. Let us be clear that this is not, as some there is no dispute, are likely to create dispute? have suggested—and as Opposition Members have been suggesting from a sedentary position—the first step to Jo Swinson: I do not think so. Clearly it is important no-fault dismissal or Beecroft-lite. We have made it that the conversation is conducted in a mature and abundantly clear that we will not go down that path. respectful way, and the guidance, on which we are consulting and which will include things such as guideline John Cryer: Will the Minister give way? letters and templates, is expressly designed to make that Jo Swinson: I will give way shortly. easier for employers. The problem the hon. Gentleman We believe our approach to settlement agreements is raises is precisely the opposite of what the proposals a more effective way of dealing with workplace problems, will address, because now, where protected conversations as it offers a positive outcome for all parties. Settlement can happen if there is a dispute, that creates a perverse agreements are by definition voluntary and consensual. incentive to employers to try to manufacture a dispute. Individuals will still need to get independent legal advice Hopefully, the proposed measures will make it make before signing an agreement and can decline it if they much easier for people to have that conversation without want to do so. That approach has the benefit that an having to pretend that there is a dispute where none agreed settlement gives an employer surety that they exists. will not face a tribunal case on any grounds covered by the settlement agreement, which a no-fault dismissal Debbie Abrahams: I am grateful to the Minister for regime would not provide. Employees are at liberty to giving way—eventually. I fear that this is another example reject an offer when it is not right for them and our of poor legislation from this Government. As I understand approach does not remove an employer’s obligations it, the provisions regarding protected conversations will not to discriminate or prevent an individual from bringing not apply in certain conditions, including where an other evidence to support a case of unfair dismissal. employer is deemed to have behaved in an improper way, yet there is no definition of “improper”in legislation. Ian Murray rose— Will the hon. Lady comment on that? Jo Swinson: I shall give way first to the hon. Member While I have the chance, I will make the intervention for Leyton and Wanstead (John Cryer). I wanted to make earlier. We know from the OECD that the UK is one of the most lightly regulated countries in John Cryer: Earlier, the Minister mentioned the possibility the world, next to the United States and Canada. Exactly of no-fault dismissal. That is exactly what the Opposition what evidence does the Minister have to draw on that are suggesting. It will be illegal to quote protected the measures will improve growth? conversations later, so no-fault dismissal by the back door will be introduced. What mechanism will she use Jo Swinson: The hon. Lady is being slightly uncharitable to monitor the workings of this clause so that that does in saying that I gave way “eventually”. I took her not happen? intervention immediately on finishing my response to her hon. Friends. My approach is to take interventions Jo Swinson: I cannot make it clear enough that this is because the function of Report stage is to ensure that not no-fault dismissal. The proposals in the Beecroft amendments receive proper scrutiny, and I am determined report would have removed at a stroke the employment to make sure that hon. Members can have those discussions rights of 30 million individuals, whereas what we propose and receive reassurances where there are concerns. is a voluntary and mutually beneficial process that will end the employment relationship only if the employee On the question about settlement agreements and the agrees to it. That is entirely different. The suggestions protections that remain, obviously the agreements should that are being made are not founded in fact. The hon. not be used in a way that results in an employee feeling Gentleman says that we should consider how things under pressure or that they have to take the agreement. proceed, and compromise agreements have been on the If there is any bullying behaviour or suggestion of statute book for some time. discrimination, of course there would be no protection for that conversation. The hon. Lady asks about the Debbie Abrahams: Will the Minister give way? definition of “improper”. The consultation on that is under way, and I encourage her to make her views Jo Swinson: I will finish answering this intervention known to it. In general terms, our aim is to reflect, and take the intervention from the hon. Member for without prejudice, unambiguous impropriety, which would Edinburgh South, and then I will be happy to take an include cases of discrimination and bullying, where intervention from the hon. Lady. there would be no protection for the employer. Over the past year—at least over several months—the Government have considered how the process could be Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) improved and have come forward with our proposals. (Lab): The Minister is being very generous. Does she The consultation on exactly how the agreements should accept that, under the proposed arrangement, the take place is running and is open until 23 November. conversation could come out of the blue for employees, The hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead is free to with no warning that their performance may not be up input his views and I encourage him to do so. Just as we to the standard or that they may not be performing in have considered the current scheme, I am sure that if the manner that the employer requires; and that that the scheme is found not to work in future years, any will itself generate massive insecurity among the UK Government would be happy to reconsider it. work force, which will serve to undermine growth, not 339 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 340 Bill Bill [Catherine McKinnell] Julian Smith: We are hearing a load of bluster and rubbish from Opposition Members. This is a balanced aid it? No one will feel confident in buying a car or even measure that puts a bit more power in the hands of a fridge if they think that the next day, out of the blue, those who will create new jobs in this country. The they might have a conversation about their performance shadow Minister was an employment lawyer; every and be offered a settlement agreement which they feel member of the Opposition Front-Bench team was a they have no choice but to accept. business owner. They are being hypocrites about the clause. Jo Swinson: I recognise that the hon. Lady is genuine in raising her concern, but I think it is misplaced. Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must withdraw Employees will not be forced to accept a settlement his use of the word “hypocrites” in relation to Members agreement; it is purely voluntary. She says the conversation of the House. Perhaps he will be good enough to will come out of the blue, but clearly we want employers withdraw the remark and apologise. to behave responsibly, with good employment relations and good human resource management. As I mentioned, Julian Smith: I do withdraw it and apologise, Mr Speaker. we are taking steps to produce guidance to make it easier for employers to act in a proper way. The risk that Mr Speaker: Thank you. I am grateful. an employee will go into work and their manager will say that they have issues with some aspect of the employee’s Jo Swinson: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I think it is fair performance exists now. Employers and employees having of my hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon confidence that they can have these conversations at an (Julian Smith) to point out that many business owners early point is better than their fearing the conversations, are genuinely concerned about how employment law which allows problems to fester and grow. currently works.

Catherine McKinnell: The Minister talks about Mr Umunna: The Minister has indeed been incredibly encouraging good and positive behaviour, but I am generous about giving way. For the record, Mr Speaker, concerned that the measure encourages precisely the I think it is of assistance to have a range of experience opposite sort of behaviour—that it will encourage an in this House. We have lawyers and many business employer to approach an employee for the very first owners in the shadow BIS team and we speak with the time about their performance with an offer to terminate benefit of professional experience. their employment, rather than help them to improve it. Does the Minister not acknowledge that employers There can be no doubt that there is inequality of arms can have these conversations with employees, as long as in that conversation for a vulnerable individual who they follow fair procedures? That is all we are asking may be facing unemployment. Has the Minister properly for. considered that? Jo Swinson: It has properly been considered. It is Jo Swinson: The procedures are far more likely to be important to repeat that the protection is for conversations used by large companies, and many business people, relating to a settlement agreement. A settlement agreement, particularly those in small and medium-sized enterprises, by definition, is a negotiation, so it is unlikely to be a fear to take them up. That was borne out by much of case of take it or leave it. The measure is about starting our consultation, both formal and informal. I do not that conversation and enabling people to say, “We think know whether Opposition Members genuinely believe this is an issue. Is this working out?” I think that that there is no concern among business about tribunals enabling employers and employees to have those and employment law— conversations without the fear described by many within the business community will improve management and Mr Umunna indicated dissent. not lead to the consequences the hon. Lady fears. Jo Swinson: Well, people watching this debate or Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): I understand reading it in Hansard will see that that concern among what the Minister is saying but I think a little honesty businesses exists and is not being taken seriously by the here would be helpful. If an employee behaves badly, Opposition, but I shall be happy to be corrected. they can be sacked. If a business is in trouble, an employee can be made redundant. It is no-fault dismissal Mr Umunna: The Minister knows full well that, for by the back door when the conversation and what she example, we welcomed the setting up of the Underhill describes as a negotiation, with such an imbalance of review, because we acknowledge that there are issues, arms, means that contractual terms of redundancy can but it is really a question of degree. Of course we have be diminished by an offered settlement to go with no to take into account the concerns of business, but our fault. That is what this is really about. job as politicians is to take into account the concerns of society as a whole and to balance the different interests, Jo Swinson: I do not appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s and that is what she has got wrong. implication. The provision is about making sure that those conversations can take place. Legal advice will Jo Swinson: I agree that the job of politicians is to have to be sought and given to the employee at that balance those interests, but I disagree with the hon. point, before any agreement is reached. Guidance will Gentleman that we do not have the right balance. As be given—as I said, we are consulting on that. We are hon. Members have pointed out, very different proposals building on and improving the existing procedure for emerged from some quarters, but the Government have compromise agreements, which have worked well in said firmly that we will not go ahead with the no-fault many cases. We are taking a provision that has been in dismissal plans that were put forward. That shows that employment law for many years and improving it. we are taking a balanced approach. 341 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 342 Bill Bill Catherine McKinnell: I thank the Minister for giving tribunal claims arises from multiple claims, which have way again. She has talked a lot about fear. It may well risen substantially, but the individual number of multiple be the case that some businesses fear an employment claims has stayed exactly the same for the past three or tribunal, but what about evidence? My hon. Friend the four years. Indeed, employment tribunal claims are Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie dropping. Abrahams) asked where the evidence was for the view that the measure would aid economic growth and the Jo Swinson: The fact remains that there is a massive creation of jobs. I, for one, have yet to see any evidence. backlog of employment tribunal claims, there are massive I hear only rhetorical references to fear. problems with the way the system is working, and there is significant concern in the business community, which 1.30 pm has been expressed in the House and in Committee. I shall move on to the other amendments before allowing Jo Swinson: I encourage the hon. Lady to speak to other Members to have their say. employers in her constituency about the issue, which is Government amendments 11 to 15 to clause 13 will raised frequently. As to evidence of employers’ fears of ensure that the power in the Bill to amend the unfair employment tribunals, let us look at the previous dismissal cap cannot be used to introduce a cap based Government’s record in office. The fear of employment on an individual’s pay without there also being a specified tribunals can put people off employing staff. If people upper limit. My hon. Friend the Member for North are more likely to employ staff, they are more likely to West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen) raised a concern grow their businesses and create wealth for this country. in Committee that, as it stands, the power in clause 13 But let us look at the record of the Opposition. In 1998 could be used to introduce a pay-based cap with no there were 90,000 claims going to employment tribunals. upper limit. Clearly, such a step would increase potential By 2010, despite the measures that the Labour Government compensation for the very highly paid and could thereby apparently took to try to improve that situation, the increase risks and uncertainty for employers. As my figure was 236,000—a huge jump in the number of hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk (Norman tribunals, which of course has created a concern for Lamb), who is now the Minister of State, Department businesses. of Health, made clear at the time, this is not the Government’s intention. On the contrary, we are seeking Catherine McKinnell: I would be interested to hear to give employers greater confidence in dealing with the Minister’s analysis of how many of those employment disputes and to ensure greater realism about the level of tribunal cases were equal pay claims that were rightly awards in order to encourage settlement. going through the tribunal system. On the evidence, or the apparent lack of evidence, about the genuine fear of We launched a consultation on proposals to change employment tribunals, I wonder whether the hon. Lady the cap on compensation for unfair dismissal on is in fact making a case for better business support, 14 September, alongside our consultation on settlement rather than legislating to make it easier to sack people, agreements. The consultation includes looking at the which seems a little counter-productive to growth. overall level of the cap and also the option of introducing a pay-based cap alongside a specified upper limit. We Jo Swinson: This is not about making it easier to sack therefore seek to make these amendments to ensure that people. This is about making it easier for people to the power in clause 13 reflects the Government’s policy come to a mutual agreement, which is, by definition, intentions. not sacking. Opposition Members have proposed three amendments to this clause, the first of which, amendment 82, would Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): May I offer my hon. delete the clause in its entirety. It has been a matter of Friend some reassurance that she is charting a middle common agreement for many years that the compensatory course? She has heard the concerns of the lawyers on award should be subject to an upper limit. What that the Opposition Benches who, instead of recognising limit should be is the issue in question. This clause that our business leaders are going out every day to do recognises the agreement that exists about the need for the best they can for their employees, assume that they an upper limit, but provides a power for the Secretary of need to be corralled and controlled. There are Members State to vary that limit subject to specific considerations. of the House who would like to see the Minister go As I have said, we are consulting on what the appropriate further in her measures in the Bill to make it easier for limit should be. I am therefore unable to accept the business leaders to hire more people so that the current amendment. recession becomes a job-filled rather than a jobless Amendment 70, tabled by the hon. Member for Hayes recession. and Harlington (John McDonnell), seeks to remove the upper limit of three times median salary. The effect of Jo Swinson: I think I thank my hon. Friend for his this would be to allow the cap to be set at any amount. intervention. The fact that there is criticism from both This would clearly run counter to the objectives that I sides shows that a balanced approach is being taken. I set out a moment ago of greater confidence for business shall make progress as I know that other Members want and greater realism for claimants. The hon. Gentleman to speak. tabled a further amendment to the clause, amendment 71, which would require the Secretary of State to consult Ian Murray: I am grateful to the Minister for allowing the TUC and the CBI before deciding on a figure for me to intervene. Let us nail once and for all the myth median annual earnings where the figure published by about employment tribunal claims. The Government the Statistics Board is more than two-years-old. I cannot used this as the supposed evidence for changing a range envisage a situation in which such information would of workers’ rights. The massive increase in employment not be produced by the ONS in any two-year period 343 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 344 Bill Bill [Jo Swinson] occasionally be made and they will end up at a tribunal. That is why, in response to the consultation, we removed but, should such an eventuality ever arise, the Secretary the automatic imposition of a penalty. Any penalty will of State will be under a duty to act reasonably and rely be based on the circumstances of the case and will be upon relevant information. The Secretary of State and imposed by the people who have heard all the facts—the other Ministers meet the TUC and CBI regularly to tribunal. It will be imposed only on employers who have discuss a range of matters, so there is little to be gained deliberately flouted the law or done so in a malicious or from placement a requirement to consult the TUC and aggravated way. the CBI on the face of the Bill. I am therefore unable to On the point about financial penalties, this is not support either of the hon. Gentleman’s amendments. some kind of revenue-raising scheme; it is about ensuring I turn now to the amendments to clause 14 tabled by that the right incentive structure is in place by creating a my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford. Amendment 58 further penalty for businesses that deliberately flout the would delete clause 14 in its entirety. Amendment 59 law. That will incentivise the right kind of behaviour. seeks to restrict the imposition of a financial penalty to For the reasons I have just outlined, that will be fairer those businesses employing more than 10 people—that on the vast majority of businesses that are good employers is, to exempt micro-businesses. I want to make it clear, and that should not lose out to those employers that as did my predecessor in Committee, that the introduction gain some kind of advantage by treating their employees of this discretionary power for tribunals is not intended badly. to penalise employers indiscriminately. It will be used only when an employer has breached an individual’s Richard Fuller: The Minister again mentions an employment rights, and when that breach has been additional penalty for those employers. Is she aware accompanied by aggravating features—for example, where that the Law Society has stated: there has been a deliberate decision to act in a way that “Uplifts on compensation of up to 25% are already available in breaches the employee’s rights, or where the same employer cases of unreasonable breach of the Acas Code on Disciplinary repeatedly acts in an unlawful manner. and Grievance Procedures”? When we first proposed the introduction of financial Is that not a sufficient additional penalty? penalties, we had thought to make the imposition of the penalty automatic when there was a finding in favour of Jo Swinson: I do not believe that what we have at the claimant, but we listened to the concerns expressed present is sufficient. Although they make up a small by business during the resolving workplace disputes portion, there are clearly too many employers who do consultation last year and revised our proposals to give not comply properly with their obligations. I think that the tribunal discretion to decide when a penalty was it is quite right that we send a clear signal and make it appropriate. Good employers—those who try to do clear that those employers can expect to face a bigger right by their employees—have nothing to fear, regardless consequence at a tribunal than those well-intentioned of their size. A genuine mistake will not be grounds for employers who try to do the right thing but fall foul of the imposition of a penalty. However, those businesses the law because of an error—after all, we are all human. which the tribunal considers have acted deliberately or Opposition Members also seek to amend clause 14. maliciously will rightly, I believe, face the prospect of a Amendment 92 seeks to address the issue of non-payment financial penalty. They will no longer be able to gain a of employment tribunal awards by proposing that an competitive advantage over businesses that abide by employer should pay a penalty for each period that an their obligations. award made in an unfair dismissal case goes unpaid. I I cannot stand here and defend bad employers. I recognise, and indeed sympathise with, the amendment’s recognise the good work that my hon. Friend the Member aims, but I am afraid that it would not have the intended for Bedford has done to support the interests of small effect. When I took over this brief, I was genuinely businesses, and I am sure he does not want to defend shocked by the level of employment tribunal awards bad employers either. I hope he will not press his that are unpaid. The figures for 2009 show that six amendments, as the Government are unable to support months after an employment tribunal makes an award them. as many as 40% of claimants had not received the money they were rightly due, which is clearly unacceptable. Richard Fuller: Of course I do not wish to defend bad Whatever people’s views on the rights and wrongs of employers but as the Minister knows, almost all employers the employment tribunal process and how it could be are good employers who do the right thing. Will she improved, when an employment tribunal grants an award address the general principle, which is not so much and the case has been heard properly, the claimant about the points that she mentioned? Why are the should be able to get their money. Like my predecessor, Government trying to get in on the financial action? I am very concerned at the figures for non-payment. This is about money that will go to the Government. It When a tribunal finds in favour of a claimant, it cannot is nothing to do with the relationship between the be right that they are unable to get the money they are employer and the employee. The money will not go to owed. the employee. Why is it so important that the Government We are consulting on two changes that I believe get their take? might have some effect on the number of awards paid promptly. They include proposals to put a date on a Jo Swinson: My hon. Friend is right to point out that tribunal’s judgment specifying when payment should be the majority of employers are good employers. I am made and to charge interest from the date of judgment sure hon. Members in all parts of the House find that to where an award is unpaid after 14 days. These charges be so when they visit local businesses in their constituencies. will apply to all cases, not just to unfair dismissal cases. Even in the case of good employers, a mistake will Importantly, in that scenario the interest will be added 345 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 346 Bill Bill to the award and paid to the claimant. That consultation have defended and won, which is not necessarily in the closes on 23 November and I encourage the hon. Members interests of justice. The amendment would also allow who have tabled amendments to take part and feed in the tribunal to impose a penalty where it subsequently their views. awards compensation for a failure to comply with an I want to consider what more we can do on this issue. earlier order or recommendation, opening up the possibility I have already discussed it with my colleague and fellow of employers being fined twice for the same breach. Minister for Equalities, the Under-Secretary of State Amendment 83 would preserve the upper limit of for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone £5,000 but seeks to remove the cap that restricts the and The Weald (Mrs Grant). We are both clear that penalty to 50% of the award, thereby allowing the action is necessary, but we cannot take action without tribunal to impose a penalty of any amount between first understanding the underlying problem properly. £100 and £5,000, the minimum and the maximum. The previous Government attempted to resolve the Removing the 50% cap would remove some of the problem by introducing a fast-track enforcement process, certainty that businesses have over potential liability if but it still persists. The process had some success, but the matter goes to a hearing and, as a consequence, not enough people have been accessing it and, even for might affect their decision to defend a claim. That is a those who have, it has not been successful in all cases. new measure that the previous Government did not I have therefore commissioned research from the think to try. We believe that it will have a positive Department on the reasons why so many awards go impact, but we of course need to see how it works in unpaid. Once we have that information, which I anticipate practice. If the amount of the fine proves insufficient to will be early next year, we will be able take whatever encourage greater compliance, or indeed if it has a steps we can to ensure that claimants receive the award detrimental effect on businesses defending a claim, we they are entitled to. Therefore, I ask the hon. Gentleman have the power to vary the limit by secondary legislation not to press the amendment and I commit to taking the and we will use it. proposal away and considering it further to see what we could do in the light of the research findings. Debbie Abrahams: Will the Minister tell us what the evidence is for those caps? Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ Co-op): I raised with the Minister’s predecessor the case Jo Swinson: As I have said, this is a new measure and of a constituent who found herself in that situation. She these are the figures we have put in place. I do not know was, in effect, dismissed for being pregnant and was what figures the hon. Lady thinks should be set. It is awarded £24,000 by a tribunal but to this day has still important that there is some certainty for businesses not received any of it. In the issues the Minister is and so, after progressing with this measure and putting considering, in the consultation and in the wider concern it in place, we can then review it and see how it works. she has expressed about how we can best address this, By ensuring that the specific amount is not set in will she also seek to work with colleagues across the primary legislation, we will have the ability to amend it Government to look at companies that change their through secondary legislation, which will give the required status in order to avoid paying out awards when cases flexibility. Amendments 72 and 83 would undermine are brought against them? the objectives of the financial penalty regime and so I am unable to accept them. Jo Swinson: I do not know the details of the case the The final amendment to clause 14, amendment 73, hon. Gentleman describes, but I am more than happy to tabled by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington, look into it. Given that he was in contact with my seeks to specify the purpose for which any moneys predecessor, I am sure that the information will be accruing to the Exchequer from the imposition of financial available in the Department. I think that we need to penalties should be used. Hon. Members will know that look at the whole range of issues. There is clearly a the Government already fund the activities to which the range of reasons why an award would not be paid, and amendment refers through ACAS, with an annual grant they might all require different solutions. If a company in aid allocation of about £45 million a year. As my has become insolvent, for example, there is a different predecessor made clear in Committee, the purpose of set of problems than if companies are simply choosing the financial penalty is not to raise revenue for the not to pay. Trying to understand where exactly the Exchequer. It would not be appropriate to expect ACAS problem lies is the first step towards ensuring that we to function with some element of its annual funding can tackle it properly, because I agree that cases such as being dependent on what is ultimately a discretionary the one he outlines are unacceptable. decision by a tribunal. The existing mechanism for funding ACAS is the right one, so I am unable to accept 1.45 pm the amendment. Amendments 72 and 83 seek to remove the limitations Amendment 94 seeks to address a point we covered we have proposed for any penalty. Amendment 72 would in Committee. I understand that its aim is to prevent a remove both the upper limit of £5,000 and the requirement disclosure relating to a breach of a private contract that the penalty should be equal to 50% of the award, from being a qualifying disclosure for the purposes of a effectively allowing the tribunal to impose a penalty of whistleblowing claim, unless it is clearly in the public any amount above £100. As we have made clear, the interest. My predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member objective of the financial penalty regime is to encourage for North Norfolk, explained in Committee our reasons employers to have greater regard to their employment for not wanting to take that route. We believe that such obligations without introducing an additional burden an approach would have the potential for unintended that would undermine their confidence to take on staff. consequences and would not in itself address the concerns Employers facing an unlimited fine are more likely to raised by the Parkins v. Sodexho decision. For example, feel compelled to settle claims that they might otherwise the issue in that case could have been reframed as a 347 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 348 Bill Bill [Jo Swinson] the clause—with the agreement of the Under-Secretary of State for Skills, the hon. Member for West Suffolk health and safety issue, with similar issues then arising (Matthew Hancock)—extended the change of name to in relation to the disclosures of minor breaches of Northern Ireland in so far as it related to the National health and safety legislation, which are of no interest to Minimum Wage Act 1998. Having since considered the wider public. Not only are we closing the loophole matters further, my Northern Ireland colleagues have identified in the Parkins v. Sodexho case, but by introducing concluded that such a change should not be made in the public interest test we are removing the potential for isolation and should form part of the wider review of the opportunistic use of the protection. That will prevent employment law that they have recently launched. As a any cases similar to the Parkins v. Sodexho case in the consequence, it is necessary make minor amendments areas that would otherwise be uncovered by the amendment. to restrict the effect of the name change to England, Scotland and Wales in only that Act. Ian Murray: I am grateful to the Minister, who is I commend the Government amendments to the House being incredibly generous in giving way. What would and hope that I have fully explained why we are unable she say to the Law Society, which says that the clause to support the other amendments in the group. will not do what the Government intend it to do? Mr Speaker: Before I call Mr Murray to speak to the Jo Swinson: I think that it will do what the Government new clause from the Opposition Front Bench, I have a intend it to do—basically what it says on the tin. It is short statement to make. Nominations for the Chair of about making sure that the public interest disclosure the Procedure Committee closed yesterday, and an election regime has to have a public interest test. That is what was held by secret ballot earlier today. The following was meant when the legislation was initially framed and candidate was elected: Mr Charles Walker. The full formed. The case law that has come up since then has breakdown of voting is set out in a paper which will be showed that there was a loophole, and I think, to be fair, available from the Vote Office. I congratulate the hon. that the Opposition have accepted that it needs to be Gentleman on his election. closed. Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): On a point Following my discussions with the hon. Member for of order, Mr Speaker. I would be most grateful if you North Ayrshire and Arran, the House may wish to be could point me to the procedurally correct way of aware of the steps that the Government are taking in congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne the NHS to encourage whistleblowers. As I said during (Mr Walker) on an outstanding victory, wishing him the recent debate on the issue, the Government fully well in chairing an extremely important Committee of support the rights of NHS staff to raise concerns in the this House, and committing myself to serving under public interest. That right has been enshrined in the him loyally as an ordinary member of the Committee in NHS constitution and further strengthened through future. changes made to the constitution and the handbook in March this year. The Department of Health is continuing Hon. Members: Hear, hear. to build on the rights set out in the Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998 further to highlight the statutory Mr Speaker: I am extremely grateful to the hon. protections available for those who raise concerns. I Gentleman for his point of order, and the reaction of want to stress that the Government fully support genuine the House shows that Members as a whole are as well. I whistleblowers and want to encourage individuals to thank him for what he said and for his participation in bring issues to light, but we need to ensure that the the election. balance of protection for employers and individuals is correct. We believe that the current clause achieves this, Ian Murray: I congratulate the hon. Member for and I am therefore unable to support the hon. Lady’s Broxbourne (Mr Walker) on his election to the Procedure amendment. However, I welcome the constructive work Committee. that she, among others, has been doing on the issue. Let me, too, start with an affair of state by saying The hon. Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth happy birthday to the shadow Secretary of State for (Debbie Abrahams) asked about the level of £5,000 and Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the penalties. The provision is intended to mirror the national Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna). I will not lead minimum wage compliance regime, so there is method the House in a chorus of “Happy Birthday”, but we behind it, but it will be possible to amend it if necessary. wish him many happy returns. I turn now to our amendments 16, 17 and 31 to While I warmly welcome the new Minister to her clause 17. Members who followed the progress of the place, I have to say, with a tinge of disappointment, that Bill through Committee will recall that the original I will miss her predecessor, the hon. Member for North clause, then clause 16, was accepted into the Bill without Norfolk (Norman Lamb), for two reasons. First, we debate. The purpose of the clause then, as now, was to incessantly used his book, “How to maximise compensation amend specified primary legislation to replace all references at an employment tribunal”, in Committee. [Interruption.] to “compromise agreements”, “compromise contracts” For the information of the hon. Member for Skipton and “compromises”, where they occur in an employment and Ripon (Julian Smith), the then Minister was formerly context, with the terms “settlement agreement” or an employment lawyer. Secondly, at the end of Committee “settlement”. By renaming compromise agreements, we proceedings we bought him a small gift, “Fifty Shades are addressing any conscious or sub-conscious reluctance of Grey”, relating to his other passion in life, and I was by a party to use these agreements arising from the looking forward to questioning him on that. I hope that perception that they are conceding or “giving in” on the hon. Lady has read the book, because then some of some or all of their arguments. The original drafting of the references in my speech might make more sense. 349 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 350 Bill Bill It is an indictment of how uncomfortable the Minister basing these recommendations on experience and from is with this part of the Bill that the Government have talking to people in the pub. In Committee, we had a restricted the time available on Report to deal with the perfect 10 from Government Members in terms of complicated issues within it. Let me be clear from the anecdotes. I am sure that at one point we even heard a outset. It does not matter how much the Secretary of direct quote from the managing director of “Anecdotes State stamps his feet or the Liberal Democrat Minister R Us”. The evidence, particularly from the OECD, denies it, this Bill is delivering Beecroft by the back shows that the United Kingdom has the third most door. It is not just Labour Members who are saying liberal employment rights regime in the western world. that. I am delighted that the hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon is in his place, because he said the same in Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): Does my Committee, much to the disdain of the former Minister. hon. Friend agree that taking advice on employment As is consistent with most of the clauses in this hotch-potch rights from somebody who profits from legal loan sharks of an enterprise Bill, these changes to rights at work are is perhaps not the right way forward when looking for not about enterprise and are not a panacea for a effective guidelines and regulation? Government with no strategy for growth. I cannot emphasise enough that the hard-fought-for Ian Murray: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s rights of employees up and down this country is not the intervention. I think that people can make up their own reason we are in a double-dip recession; the failed minds about the ideology and ethos of the report. economic policies of this Government are the reason. Amendment 80 deals with fees and their impact on ACAS early conciliation. In Committee we pressed Julian Smith rose— amendments to assist applicants and to ensure that ACAS was properly resourced. The amendment covers Ian Murray: Let me make some progress, and then I a similar concern that we have about the new deposit will give way. orders. We welcome the new role for compulsory early To start with the positives, I welcome new clause 8, conciliation by ACAS, but we are concerned that the which is derived from the report by Mr Justice Underhill insertion of the fees system after the ACAS conciliation and his esteemed team. We have always recognised the process will dilute the effectiveness of conciliation and need to review the procedures of the employment tribunal put employees in the untenable position of having to system to make it work better for employees and employers, settle their dispute or find the necessary £1,200 to take it but with these proposals we have particular concerns beyond the ACAS system. about the increased use of deposit orders. We support Ed Sweeney, the chair of ACAS—I have mentioned the premise of deposit orders in deterring claims which this already—said during his evidence to the Committee may be unmeritorious, but we fear that their increased that use, combined with the introduction of the fees regime, “we do not know whether charging for tribunals would have an may restrict access to justice. This has the potential not adverse effect on either employers or employees…Will there be only to restrict justice but to do so for the most vulnerable less, from an employer’s point of view, of engaging in conciliation”?– employees in the employment tribunal system. Will the –[Official Report, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Public Bill Minister assess the impact of the changes on deposit Committee, 19 June 2012; c. 68, Q146.] orders? I appreciate her giving the commitment that if The Minister herself has admitted that there could be there were an impact she would return to the issue, but an issue and will deal with that after the system is up it is strange that these proposals have been introduced. and running. Despite being pressed time and again on Several of my hon. Friends have been asking about the this issue in Committee, she has refused to produce an evidence for doing so. Despite repeated pleas in Committee impact assessment on the impact of ACAS conciliation to produce a proper impact assessment on the insertion when low-paid and vulnerable workers will have to find of fees into the process, that has not happened. a fee to enter the employment tribunal system. I welcome the provisions to allow for costs for lay representatives. We agree with Mr Justice Underhill 2pm when he said: Amendment 81 merely asks the Government to delete “We can see no reason why the claimant should not be able to clause 12, because it is an ill-thought-out clause on recover those charges when he would have been able to if he had settlement agreements, which are the key dividing point instructed a legal representative.” between us. The Government are trying to mix protected We will not oppose these changes in new clause 8, as conversations with the current without prejudice rules, they have been properly evidenced, but I could not say while adding a touch of Beecroft no-fault dismissal. Let that about the rest of part 2, where the Government me be totally clear: the reason why Opposition Members have absolutely no evidence for any of their proposed are against the clause is that it is bad for business. changes. Indeed, their own impact assessments, and Current compromise agreements can be used when business surveys, show that there is little appetite for there is a dispute between employee and employer. them in the business community. Businesses tell me and Indeed, they are already widely used—Thompsons Solicitors other Members that their main concerns are not employee alone used nearly 6,000 of them last year. Under the regulations but lack of finance and the general state of new rules, employers will be able to offer an employee a the economy. sum of money if they agree to leave employment and The reality is that the previous Labour Government sign a new settlement agreement. Any conversations or created nearly 2 million jobs and 1 million businesses offers made with a view to terminating employment by within the current system of employment rights. agreement will be treated as confidential and will not be Mr Beecroft himself agreed, in effect, when he said in able to be considered by an employment tribunal in an Committee that he had no empirical evidence but was unfair dismissal case, unless the employer has behaved 351 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 352 Bill Bill improperly. The amount of satellite litigation in the Catherine McKinnell: The shadow Minister is making potential attempts to define what improper behaviour is a powerful case as to why the measures are bad for will grind the employment tribunal to a halt. business. To follow on from the important point made This also applies to cases involving impropriety with by my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland Central regards to discrimination. If someone who wants to (Julie Elliott), people who rely on mortgage protection have an honest and open conversation about age uses a insurance are also likely to be adversely affected if they settlement agreement, they will end up in an employment enter into a settlement agreement. Have the Government tribunal as a result of age discrimination legislation. considered whether that protection could be invoked if Essentially, the Government will allow employers to those affected enter into a voluntary agreement to leave make minimal offers to workers to leave, then gag those their employment? very same workers from even mentioning that at an employment tribunal. Ian Murray: My hon. Friend makes a fantastic point. I do not have the answer, because the Government have The new process may even undermine this country’s not told us, but it seems that if an insurance company redundancy regime. At present, employers must follow can do anything to get out of paying a particular a proper procedure in order to dismiss under-performing insurance policy, it will do so. Perhaps the Minister will workers. To challenge the hon. Member for Skipton and address that. Ripon, I have run my own business and have dismissed employees, but every single working day I left my house Citizens Advice has said clearly—I think it has sent to go to work to look after the biggest assets in my this briefing to all Members—that business, namely the employees. The new process will “this looks less like an attempt to encourage more use of compromise encourage bad practices. It will send a signal to employers agreements, than a further erosion of the legal protection against that there is no longer a need to follow a formal disciplinary unfair dismissal.” process and that they can try to push people out of the The Minister has been challenged to say exactly what organisation by offering them a sum of money. That the settlement agreement represents and to come clean. sounds like Adrian Beecroft’s report by the back door. If she did so, this would be a far easier debate to deal with. Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab): Can my The current system allows for the use of compromise hon. Friend clarify something for me? The Minister agreements when there is a dispute. The new settlement said that, by definition, a settlement agreement would agreements can be used at any time, but it is clear that not amount to sacking an employee. Under the new they are likely to create a dispute. The reality is that the sanctions regime for jobseeker’s allowance, if someone mere fact of instigating discussions without prior process leaves their job voluntarily they cannot claim JSA for is likely to cause the end of the employment relationship, 13 weeks. Would a settlement agreement amount to which is exactly what the employer will want. It is the them leaving their job voluntarily? equivalent of one party in a personal relationship saying to the other party, completely out of the blue, “I don’t Ian Murray: My hon. Friend asks an exceptionally love you anymore.” Who would hang around after that? good question. I think that it would amount to a [Interruption.] My hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool voluntary leaving of work, because the employee will (Mr Wright) suggests that I am speaking from personal not have been sacked—they will have come to an agreement experience, but I could not possibly comment. We propose with their employer that they will leave. They will not to delete the Beecroft clause, because it is bad for have been made redundant. I hope that the Minister business and equally bad for employees. will address that issue, because it could have significant consequences. Julian Smith: Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that Labour does not believe that regulation is a big issue for Julian Smith: It is incredible that the hon. Gentleman business? is unable to understand the frustration of many businesses on the issue of coming to the end of an employment Ian Murray: The hon. Gentleman spent a lot of time relationship. Does he not understand how frustrating it in Committee posing such questions, but the Federation is for many entrepreneurs throughout the country to of Small Businesses, the Engineering Employers Federation, finish a relationship with an employee that is not working Citizens Advice and many of the top groups that deal out? with employers and employees tell us that a compensated, no-fault dismissal is bad for business, and BIS’s own impact assessment says exactly the same. Until the Ian Murray: The hon. Gentleman makes a tremendous Government can produce empirical evidence that underpins intervention, because he is actually arguing our point: some of the Beecroft reforms, I am unwilling to believe the proposals are bad for business. We would accept the what the hon. Gentleman says. Underhill review’s proposal to make the employment tribunal better and we would accept, with minor I hope that the Minister has listened to my comments amendments, the ACAS proposal for early conciliation, on amendment 81 and I will test the opinion the House but to put in place a compensated, no-fault-dismissal- on it at the appropriate time. cum-protected-conversation system would be bad for Amendment 82 would remove clause 13 and its provision business. The hon. Gentleman must also realise that the on compensatory awards. The clause gives the Secretary Business Department’s own small business survey showed of State the power to alter the amount of compensation that only 6% of businesses listed regulation as a concern. paid to an employee who is found by a judge to have That included all regulation, so employment regulation been unfairly dismissed. Every Government member of was only a minor part of it. He can shake his head, but the Committee indicated that they want the amount to that is what BIS’s own impact assessment says. be drastically reduced, despite the fact that the Bill gives 353 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 354 Bill Bill the Secretary of State the potential to increase it from we are by those figures and is looking at the matter. I its current level of £72,000. The Secretary of State has will support her if there is a genuine attempt to make indicated that his cap would be a maximum of either an the system better. annual salary or median earnings, whichever is the Amendment 92 would essentially add to the powers lower, potentially limiting all claims to about £26,000, of the employment tribunal to impose a penalty on the effect of which would be to hit anyone who earns an employer who does not settle the award within the more than average earnings. This Government have hit time specified by the judge. It seems strange that the middle earners time and again and these proposals have Government are proposing to fine an employer for the potential to hit them hardest when they will have aggravated circumstances in order to boost the coffers actually won a claim at an employment tribunal. It of the Treasury, while the employee has to wait or gets should be up to the employment tribunal judge to nothing at all. I am sure that many Members have decide what an adequate compensatory award is, not constituents who have not been paid their compensatory the Secretary of State. awards. I will give the House an anonymised example. A Amendment 83 would merely remove the provision claimant was dismissed at the age of 58. He was earning that introduces a parking ticket-style discount to employers as little as £26,020 net per year, but due to dismissal will if they pay their fine to the Treasury within the set not attain that level of earnings before he retires at 65. period of time. That could have the unintended consequence After eight months of unemployment, the claimant got of the penalty being prioritised over the awards due to a job on £20,020 net per year. His loss was calculated by the employee. a judge at an employment tribunal to be £124,200. I will move on to amendment 94 and the new clauses Under the current regime, he would receive 62% of that tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire claim. Under the Secretary of State’s regime, he would and Arran (Katy Clark). Amendment 94 relates to receive less than 20% of it. That is somebody on fairly clause 15, in which the Government attempt to limit the average earnings of about £26,000 a year. Citizens definition of a protected disclosure, which is the basis of Advice has stated: whistleblowing claims. Whistleblowing is a day-one right “The idea that this could have a measurable effect on the that has the potential for unlimited compensation. The behaviour of workers and employers is not credible”. Opposition agree with the Government that this should It proposes the deletion of clause 13 on that basis. That not be used for an individual’s own employment contract, is why I would like to test the opinion of the House later but we disagree that inserting a public interest test into this afternoon. the legislation will assist in the matter. The Law Society agrees with us. It has said that the The critical point is that the combined impact of provision should state that a breach of a legal obligation settlement agreements, ACAS early conciliation, fees requires something more than a breach of the individual and the lowering of the cap on compensatory awards contract of employment, so as to satisfy the public will deliver the very compensated no-fault dismissal interest test. At present, the provision means that that was in the Beecroft report. Let me demonstrate allegations about matters other than a simple breach of why. If an employer decides that he no longer likes an a legal obligation must fall within a test of public employee, he might offer them a sum of money to leave interest. A disclosure that a criminal offence has been his employment in a settlement agreement. The employer committed would therefore also have to satisfy the could say that the amount offered will be reduced each public interest test. day that the settlement agreement is not accepted. The employee will feel pressured into accepting an offer for We propose that the legislation be altered to omit an fear of victimisation, for fear that the offer will be individual’s employment contract from whistleblowing withdrawn or reduced over time, or because of the claims, unless it satisfies the public interest test. One spectre of having to take an unfair dismissal claim with reason why the Government have got it wrong on this the associated fee structure. Even if the employee were matter is that there has been no consultation with the to win the tribunal case, the compensation cap proposed relevant parties and stakeholders on how best to achieve by the Secretary of State would be considerably lower the goals that we want to achieve. than the losses that they had encountered. This is a rogues charter that will result in poorly 2.15 pm compensated employees who feel that the system is too The Government are trying to make it easier to fire, complicated and expensive to make a rightful claim for rather than hire, employees. They have no empirical justice. This is compensated no-fault dismissal in action. evidence that the changes will improve the system. Let us not mention the ludicrous announcement by the Indeed, the potential unintended consequences of an Chancellor at the Conservative party conference that explosion in satellite litigation have been raised by many people could give up their workplace rights for a few stakeholders and by many Members this afternoon. company shares. The impact will be felt by the lowest-paid and the most I will quickly run through amendments 92 and 83. In vulnerable. Although many Government Members are Committee, we pressed the then Minister, the hon. using the Bill as a way to attack the trade union movement, Member for North Norfolk, to introduce a better system the changes will affect those who are not in a trade for the enforcement of employment tribunal awards. He union the most, because they do not have the same committed to look at that, but nothing has come forward. representation. As the Minister has said today, some 40% of people Yesterday, we heard that the Government were legislating who have been found by a judge at an employment to try to change perceptions of health and safety. Today, tribunal to have been unfairly dismissed never receive they are doing the same with the perceptions of employees’ their award. I am glad that the Minister is as shocked as rights at work, rather than dealing with those perceptions. 355 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 356 Bill Bill An eminent employment lawyer with over 30 years’ John Cryer: Did the hon. Gentleman read the evidence experience, Joy Drummond from Simpson Millar, that Mr Beecroft gave to the Public Bill Committee? emphasised that in Committee: When he was asked, repeatedly, what the basis of his “Isn’t it more responsible for a Government to educate…employers assertions was on a whole range of subjects, and what and publicise the traps and how they should behave, rather than evidence he was bringing to bear, he more or less said, to legislate on the basis of a myth which, in itself, will, through “Well, it’s something I’ve just dreamed up.” He did not implementation in such a way, cause more problems for present any particular evidence that I can pinpoint in everybody?”—[Official Report, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform the Hansard report. Public Bill Committee, 21 June 2012; c. 97, Q212.] That is why the measures that we are putting forward Richard Fuller: The hon. Gentleman makes a good would be good for business. point, but—[Interruption.] I am serious, and this is a Most shockingly, these reforms will impact on consumer serious point. I do not know much about football, but I confidence by damaging job security. These reforms understand that the idea is to play the ball, not the man. purport to assist business, but they might have the That is also important in debates, which was why I did opposite effect on the economy. Do not take that from not feel it was correct when the Secretary of State me. The Minister’s predecessor, the hon. Member for dismissed Adrian Beecroft’s proposals out of hand and North Norfolk, said of the Beecroft report before he called them “bonkers”on Second Reading. It is important was appointed to the Business, Innovation and Skills that we should debate those proposals. If, as the hon. team: Gentleman says, there is not sufficient evidence for “I think it would be madness to throw away all employment them, let us look forward and move on to other issues. protection in the way that’s proposed, and it could be very My point is that Opposition Members too often damaging to consumer confidence.” harangue business people or try to portray them in a He went on to say, “It’s crazy”. The Bill has the potential particular light. I refer particularly to the comments of to choke off access to justice for people who have been the hon. Member for Walthamstow, who I believe discussed wronged in the workplace and deserve justice. It also how Mr Beecroft made his money. I gently urge her to has the potential to damage growth. I challenge the recognise that Mr Beecroft’s boss at the time—they Minister and the Government to prove once and for all were in the same company, making the same money—was that this is not Beecroft by the back door by joining us an adviser to the former Prime Minister, and that the in the Lobby this afternoon. Labour party received millions of pounds in donations from that gentleman. If she wishes to make such points Richard Fuller: I will speak in favour of the two about one individual, I look forward to being copied in amendments relating to clause 14 that stand in my on her letter to the Leader of the Opposition suggesting name. We have heard many legal arguments today. I am that the Labour party should return that money. not a lawyer by training, so I have listened as intently as I can. My background is in business, and I draw the Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and House’s attention to my continuing interests. Kirkintilloch East) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman has The Minister did an excellent job of portraying the mentioned some adjectives used about Beecroft that he middle path that she is taking with the legislation. I thinks were less than precise. Surely a simpler way to intervened on her to say that many business people feel put it is that the plural of “anecdote” is not “evidence”. that Parliament and politicians are out of touch with Beecroft presented a series of anecdotes about business the realities of their day-to-day business. In some cases, that he could not back up with any facts. I know the their voice is not heard loudly enough. My amendments hon. Gentleman well enough to know that he is in the deal with one area where there is further that the facts business, so surely he will reflect on that when Minister could go. considering Mr Beecroft’s report. Julian Smith: My hon. Friend says that the public feel Richard Fuller: The hon. Gentleman, too, makes a that this place is sometimes out of touch. From what he good point. I have read the evidence given to the Public has heard from Opposition Members, would he say that Bill Committee, and it was not sufficiently evidentiary Labour is anti-business and completely out of touch to move Mr Beecroft’s point forward. However, the with entrepreneurs? hon. Gentleman will know that developed economies are currently having trouble with how to increase Richard Fuller: My hon. Friend makes an excellent employment as they come out of recession. In the point. All of us are aware that the Labour party has United States and the United Kingdom, it is taking us trouble understanding aspiration and even more trouble longer to create jobs as the economy recovers. It is in rewarding aspiration. I am sure that Opposition therefore imperative that we look at the evidence, to see Members will reflect deeply on the point that he has whether we wish to promote the Beecroft proposals. made. That is why we need a deeper and more serious debate than just talking about poor evidence in a Public Bill Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab) indicated dissent. Committee or anecdotal evidence somewhere else, and one without name-calling. Richard Fuller: The shadow Minister does not agree with me, but let me point out to him the way in which Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): The hon. the hon. Members for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) and Gentleman makes the exact point that we constantly for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) have spoken about made in the Public Bill Committee. Given what he is Mr Beecroft. Somehow, a person becomes a word, saying, surely we should stop this debate and then take which becomes something to be thrown around and a view one way or another when we have got the handled in the most insulting of ways. There is no evidence. At the moment, everything that the Government understanding of what Adrian Beecroft has done. are doing is based on views that are not evidence-based. 357 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 358 Bill Bill Richard Fuller: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s will help to add an additional burden on top of that, perspective, but the Minister made quite clear her belief with the Government trying to take money as well. that there is sufficient evidence and support for the There seems to be a discord between that and our trying Government’s measures. Many of us think that they to do the best by employees. That is why I would rather will go quite some way towards providing what businesses the clause be completely removed. and employees would see as a reasonable and fair way I believe the shadow Minister said in the Public Bill to make efficient changes in the procedures for dismissal, Committee that in 59% of cases, employees do not dealing with unfair dismissal and tribunals. receive the full settlement, and I would like the Government’s I wish to focus on clause 14 and my amendments to focus to be on reducing that figure. I believe that the it. Amendment 58 would delete the clause entirely, and clause is unhelpful, and as my hon. Friend the Member amendment 59 would apply its principles only to businesses for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith) said, business outside the micro-business sector—those that have more representatives also believe that. than 10 employees. The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Edinburgh South, has given a number of Julie Hilling: What, then, do we do with employers the justifications for doing that both in Committee and who continue to flout the law? I absolutely agree that today. First, there is the principle that involving the the claimant should get the compensation to which they Government in a dispute between an employer and an are entitled, but some employers continuously flout the employee may complicate the achievement of a settlement law and just pay a small amount. Often, employees get a between those two parties. It is difficult to understand small award at tribunal anyway, depending on their age, the a priori reason why a Government should try to length of service and income. What do we do with those achieve a take, because as he made clear, we should be employers? trying to ensure that employers pay the amount for which they are responsible to an employee who has Richard Fuller: That is an interesting question. My been aggrieved by a dismissal. I listened to the Minister’s amateur response is that there are better ways to solve comments, but my concern is that the clause will provide the problem than the method in clause 14. Imposing an additional complexity in the process. additional burden in the form of money going to a As the Minister alluded to, the clause will also create different party, the Government, is not the optimum an imbalance between the employee and the employer, path to reach the resolution and outcome that both the and we are not sure how that will play out under the hon. Lady and I would like to see when an employer has new regime. I hope that if the Minister will not accept acted inappropriately and is not paying the bill that he my amendments today, she will at least agree to examine or she should to the aggrieved employee. In general, as I how the changes play out, and perhaps consider whether have said a number of times, I would rather have the law the issue of financial penalties should be reviewed in presume that the employer is doing the right thing and future. will make the right payments. If he or she does not, there should be other measures, which perhaps the Julian Smith: It is worth recording that every business Minister can mention in her response. representative group in Britain is concerned about the As we have heard from my hon. Friend the Member clause, for many of the reasons that my hon. Friend has for Skipton and Ripon, both the Federation of Small given. Businesses and the Institute of Directors have made representations to the Government that it would be Richard Fuller: I thank my hon. Friend very much for better to remove the penalty on businesses imposed by that intervention. clause 14. I have mentioned some of the representations made to the Government by the Law Society—that the Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): I can understand benefits of imposing financial penalties on employers why businesses do not want to face the reality of their are not convincing—and, perhaps for slightly different actions, but we know that many businesses flout reasons, from Opposition Members we have heard why employment law, whether deliberately or innocently. If the clause may not be good. I would rather leave those anybody breaks the law in any other walk of life, comments for the Minister to reflect on than push the whether through a driving offence, robbing a shop or amendments to a vote. I appreciate the hearing from the whatever, there is a penalty to be paid. Clause 14 is not House. about innocent omissions; it is about employers doing something deliberately. From many years of representing people, I know that employers often deliberately go 2.30 pm against what is written in legislation. Surely they should Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): I will have to pay some penalty for doing that, just as anybody speak to new clauses 1 and 2, which relate to different would in any other walk of life. If someone breaks the aspects of whistleblowing. The current provisions on law, they pay a cost. whistleblowing are in the Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998, a landmark piece of legislation introduced by Richard Fuller: The hon. Lady makes some good the previous Labour Government. That legislation was points from her experience, but my view is that we fought for by many people over many years, and came should focus our attention on ensuring that the aggrieved about as a result of decades of campaigning by many employee is in the best possible position to receive the across the political divide. I am therefore pleased to see maximum amount of the settlement that has been made that the hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills in their favour. As was shown in evidence to the Public (Mr Shepherd) is listening to the debate, as he was one Bill Committee, in a large proportion of cases the of those who campaigned on this matter during the employee does not get that amount. I do not see how it previous Conservative Government. 359 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 360 Bill Bill [Katy Clark] Katy Clark: My hon. Friend is absolutely correct. There must be mechanisms by which people can bring Clause 15 introduces a public interest test into the problems of that nature to the attention of the appropriate whistleblowing legislation, and future claims will be authorities. successful only if the worker believed that the disclosure By going ahead with this legislation and creating new was made in the public interest and—in the case of hurdles, the Government will make it more difficult to wider disclosures—can demonstrate that that belief was rely on whistleblowing legislation. There is a strong reasonable under the circumstances. The clause will argument that the motives of the claimant are irrelevant make it more difficult for people to rely on the 1998 Act, if bringing forward such information is in the public as it creates yet another legal test in what is already a interest. As they stand, the Government’s proposals will complex legal area, and means that those who may be significantly water down whistleblowing legislation in considering whistleblowing will face yet another hurdle this country, but that balance would be significantly to obtain the protection of the legislation. New clause 1 restored if new clause 1 were accepted. would remove one of the other legal tests—the good faith test—from the legislation. New clause 2 deals with vicarious liability and addresses a loophole that has arisen as a result of the case of NHS There is no doubt that lives have been saved as a Manchester v. Fecitt and others, about which the Minister result of public interest disclosure legislation. However, will be aware. Three nurses from Manchester raised a as the Minister indicated, Dame Janet Smith stated in concern about a colleague lying about his qualifications, the Shipman inquiry that the good faith test was a but they were unable to rely on the protection of the barrier to whistleblowers, and that is borne out in law. Will the Minister seriously consider accepting new reports from the ongoing Mid Staffordshire and Leveson clause 2, as that would allow that loophole to be closed? inquiries. Given that another test is being added for a protected disclosure to be met, we must consider whether the proposed legislation will make it more difficult for Mr Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con): I someone to get the protection of the law. apologise for not having heard the opening remarks by the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy I believe that Parliament and politicians should want Clark). I can see, however, that she was doing a bonny individuals to whistleblow when that is in the public job, and these are important issues that, in a sense, have interest. Indeed, at almost any point in history, there been imported into the Bill because of what she describes. have been situations in which it was—and should have been—appropriate for an individual to bring information I am a passionate believer in whistleblowing, and I to the attention of the relevant authorities or, where stand in the shadow of some giants from the time just appropriate, the public, irrespective of whether they after the election of the previous Labour Government. could prove that they were acting in good faith. Tony Wright came up with the idea that people who make disclosures in the public interest should be protected by law, and that surprising proposition met with approval Julian Smith: I pay tribute to the work done by the across the House. Other people were involved. Sir Ian hon. Lady on this important issue. Does she think that McCartney, then a distinguished Member of this House, the time has come to consider the American model in fought within his Department to see this process advanced, which society starts to give incentives to whistleblowers, and the Liberal Democrats supported it with interest and will she comment on that? and vigour. From my party, the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, then Leader of the Opposition, Katy Clark: I would not necessarily say there should supported the legislation and served on its Committee. be incentives, but people should not be punished for Nor should I forget Lord Borrie, who did sterling work whistleblowing. It is currently very difficult to get the in the House of Lords. protection of the law, and we need to look at that. That Tony Wright’s original idea that something could—and is why I, together with others, have called on the should—be done, set in train a motion that found Government to look at the entire area. It is now more supporters from across the House and among their than a decade since the 1998 Act was introduced, and lordships, and from the then new Labour Government. we need a thorough review and full public consultation I was fortunate enough—or merely the vessel, depending on all issues associated with whistleblowing. on how one looks at it—to deliver the idea through a Current topical examples of where I believe it should private Member’s Bill. I am, therefore, delighted to hear not be necessary for someone to show that they are a newish Labour Member standing up for something acting in good faith include the allegations that are that reaches across the parties and has an important coming to light about Jimmy Savile, and the cover-up principle behind it. that we have seen over many years following the The confusion identified by Public Concern at Work Hillsborough disaster. There will be many other examples seems to many to cut across what the Government are central to the political debate where politicians would trying to do. Hon. Members are sympathetic to the welcome whistleblowers taking action. Government’s attempt to bring clarity, and many of us are mindful of bullying in public places or the workplace. Julie Hilling: Briefly, I would like to give another Nothing should harm the feeling that an individual example. At Network Rail, women were consistently should be able to come forward and argue that they are getting compromise agreements and therefore being making a disclosure, because that is in the interest of gagged from speaking about things that were taking society as a whole and of corporate government. place. They were all women, so one can imagine the I am cheered by comments from some of my colleagues, sorts of situations involved. The proposed legislation who clearly want to make this legislation a working part would make life much harder for people in such situations. of ensuring that fraud and criminal activities, as well as 361 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 362 Bill Bill all the other matters that have been raised by Public People are not currently adequately compensated, Concern at Work and that are in the public interest, do which is why the cap is unacceptable. In no other area of not take place. After all, the legislation is entitled the law does a judge make an assessment that someone has Public Interest Disclosure Act. I urge the Government lost and determine compensation, only for a cap to please to enter into negotiations with wider society, and prevent full compensation. That is why there should be particularly organisations such as Public Concern at no cap, and yet the Government are keen on caps—they Work. The Bill must go to the House of Lords, and I have introduced a £5,000 cap on fines against employers. have no doubt that the legal differentiation between What is £5,000 to companies such as Virgin or Starbucks, terms will be closely scrutinised. I advocate that the which we heard about yesterday? They are billion-pound bonny Minister raises the flag and fights for a change to companies. What is a £5,000 fine to them? It is meaningless. the formulation of words, as proposed in new clauses 1 and 2. Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): Will the hon. Gentleman give way? John McDonnell: We have extremely limited time to debate this group of proposals if we are to debate the John McDonnell: No, because the hon. Gentleman green investment bank. I absolutely abhor the programme came late to the debate. motion, and the Minister took up nearly a third of the time for debate. Report is the only stage at which Nick de Bois: I am not boring! someone not on the Committee can table and debate amendments, and I have only around five minutes to John McDonnell: I might allow the hon. Gentleman speak to mine. to intervene if he came to the Chamber occasionally. We naively debate the detail of legislation and Bills The point of my proposals is to ensure a balance of without understanding their political context. The political fairness in the regime that is being introduced. There is context of the Bill is the statements made at the Conservative currently no balance whatever. The Bill is Beecroft. It is party conference. This is the first stage in a legislative based on no evidence and on prejudice, and is the first process under this Government of giving employers the stage of the Government’s plans to undermine employment licence to sack at will. That is what this legislation is law. This is the first stage of undermining the protections about. that workers have. People outside the Chamber will When the Minister spoke, it was like having a delegate realise what is happening in the coming months under from the Institute of Directors in the Chamber. The this Government. Jobs will be shredded and people will measure is like the first stage of the IOD programme for have no protection whatever as a result of the Bill and reforming employment law. what will follow. On that basis, I wholeheartedly support Opposition Front Benchers in attempting to remove Julian Smith: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? those clauses. John McDonnell: No, I will not, because we do not have time and, to be honest, the hon. Gentleman is 2.45 pm becoming monotonously boring. Jo Swinson: I thank hon. Members who have taken When the Prime Minister spoke at the Conservative part in this debate. I note the point made by the hon. party conference, he said that he was on the side of the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) strivers. He makes it clear in the Bill that he is on the that I spoke at length at the beginning of the debate. I side of employers who want to sack people—without wanted to ensure that I covered all the issues raised and adequate compensation or adequate protection in law. to be fair to Members in taking all interventions offered, I have tabled a number of simple, basic amendments which is the spirit in which I have approached the to ameliorate the proposed legislation, all of which have debate. That obviously meant that my remarks were been rejected. I suggested that there should be a sanction rather lengthy. against employers who do not participate in conciliation. I want to respond to the points raised in the debate, We are told that such a sanction already exists, so my because hon. Members are keen to get to the next proposal would simply codify what the Minister has business. The hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian said happens in practice. It is important that we include Murray)—the shadow Minister—queried clause 13 and that in the Bill. said that it would hit middle earners, but I fear that his I have made a simple attempt to amend the time analysis of the situation reinforces unrealistic expectations. scales in which claimants can prepare their case. A The average award at an employment tribunal is less month is not enough for them—they must collect than £5,000. In reality, only 0.3% of unfair dismissal information and seek legal advice, and individuals often claimants are awarded more than the annual salary. The draft legal papers themselves. A six-month time scale purpose of the measure is to provide additional certainty would reflect that reality. and to help challenge those unrealistic expectations, but Another proposal would ensure that the processes he has not characterised it entirely fairly. being introduced by the Government have the confidence of all sides. It is unacceptable for the judge to determine Gregg McClymont: Will the Minister give way? who is on the Employment Appeal Tribunal, because it removes the experience of both sides of industry, who Jo Swinson: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, could advise the judge. My proposal is simply that but I remind him that Labour Members are also keen to consensus should be achieved and that the decision get to the next business. should be made with the approval of both the employee and employer representatives—all parties concerned. Gregg McClymont: If the average award is around Even that proposal has been rejected. £5,000, why is there a rush to get rid of the system? 363 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 364 Bill Bill Jo Swinson: As I was saying, the measure provides The shadow Minister suggested that there would be a additional certainty and encourages both employers problem with tribunals grinding to a halt when trying to and employees to recognise that high awards are unlikely. define the word “improper”. That is not expected to be Because of the current cap, some people can be misled the case. Tribunals already play a valuable role in interpreting into believing that high awards are likely, and end up legislation. At the moment, they interpret what “reasonable” pursuing that route when they could be better served by means in unfair dismissal cases, and we expect them to early conciliation and the other approaches outlined in consider the meaning of “unambiguous impropriety”, the Bill. as already happens in the civil courts and case law, in I welcome the shadow Minister’s offer to work their deliberations on this test. He gave the example of a constructively on solving the problem of unpaid tribunal scenario in which an employer offers a settlement agreement awards. but says that the amount will reduce each day until it is accepted. As my predecessor said in Committee, we Tom Greatrex: Will the Minister give way? would consider that the type of improper behaviour to which the protection would not apply. As I said, however, that consultation is ongoing. Jo Swinson: I will give way, but I encourage hon. Members not to intervene to raise points that have On clause 12, the shadow Minister gave the analogy already been debated—we have gone over a lot of the of somebody in a relationship suddenly saying, “I don’t ground already. This will hopefully be something new. love you anymore.” That is not a fair analogy. The appropriate analogy would be: “We need to talk.” When something is not working out, encouraging early dialogue Tom Greatrex: I was unable to make a speech because is a good thing. That is the spirit behind all these of the length of the Minister’s contribution, but I would changes, whether on early conciliation, rapid resolution like to raise a specific point on unpaid awards. I have or streamlining and improving the employment tribunal raised a case from my constituency previously but did system. Ultimately, our aim is to have fewer tribunals not get to give the full details. Will the Minister meet me taking place. That would be good for employees and and my constituent to go through some of the employers, and I commend the Government amendments circumstances? The problem cuts across the Government, and new clause to the House. and involves not just the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. Sometimes companies avoid paying Question put and agreed to. the awards they should be paying, which challenges New clause 8 accordingly read a Second time, and some of the points made by Government Members added to the Bill. about who has confidence in the system.

Jo Swinson: I would be happy to meet the hon. Clause 7 Gentleman and his constituent, who, I am sure, is very grateful for the work he has done on this case. It is CONCILIATION BEFORE INSTITUTION OF PROCEEDINGS important to constituents to have the support of their Amendments made: 6, page 4, line 18, leave out ‘send’ MPs on such issues. and insert ‘provide’. In response to my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford Amendment 7, page 5, line 33, leave out ‘sending’ and (Richard Fuller), I point out that representations from insert ‘providing’.—(Jo Swinson.) business suggested we should not proceed with financial penalties, but the ability of a tribunal to impose a Clause 12 penalty when it believes an employer has acted wholly inappropriately is right. I reinforce the point that good CONFIDENTIALITY OF NEGOTIATIONS BEFORE employers have nothing to fear, and I welcome the fact TERMINATION OF EMPLOYMENT that he will not press the amendments to a Division. Amendment proposed: 81, page 8, line 19, leave out I took a lot of interventions on clause 12, but I want Clause 12.—(Ian Murray.) to respond to some of the specific points made in the Question put, That the amendment be made. debate. The issue of jobseeker’s allowance was raised. The House divided: Ayes 224, Noes 279. The rules and decisions that currently apply to the Division No. 76] [2.53 pm regime of compromise agreements will apply to settlement agreements. When assessing claims, jobcentre staff could AYES take into account the facts of the case, how the agreement Abbott, Ms Diane Benton, Mr Joe was instigated and what the reasons for it were. We are Abrahams, Debbie Berger, Luciana also in discussions with the Department for Work and Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Betts, Mr Clive Pensions to ensure that those rules are applied appropriately. Alexander, Heidi Blackman-Woods, Roberta Obviously, because it is a voluntary agreement, it will Ali, Rushanara Blenkinsop, Tom not be a sacking if the employee does not wish it to be, Allen, Mr Graham Blomfield, Paul but equally it could be negotiated in such an agreement Anderson, Mr David Blunkett, rh Mr David that the reason for leaving could be deemed to be Austin, Ian Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben dismissal. That could help individuals by providing Bailey, Mr Adrian Brennan, Kevin them with additional clarity around jobseeker’s allowance Bain, Mr William Brown, Lyn and insurance protection, although I add the caveat, of Banks, Gordon Brown, rh Mr Nicholas course, that people would need to look at their specific Barron, rh Mr Kevin Brown, Mr Russell insurance policies and that those policies would vary Beckett, rh Margaret Bryant, Chris from case to case. As I said, however, the wording in the Begg, Dame Anne Burden, Richard final agreement could assist in such cases. Benn, rh Hilary Burnham, rh Andy 365 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 366 Bill Bill Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hodge, rh Margaret Phillipson, Bridget Stuart, Ms Gisela Campbell, Mr Alan Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Pound, Stephen Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Campbell, Mr Gregory Hoey, Kate Qureshi, Yasmin Tami, Mark Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hopkins, Kelvin Reed, Mr Jamie Thomas, Mr Gareth Clark, Katy Hosie, Stewart Reeves, Rachel Thornberry, Emily Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hunt, Tristram Reynolds, Emma Timms, rh Stephen Coaker, Vernon Irranca-Davies, Huw Riordan, Mrs Linda Trickett, Jon Coffey, Ann Jackson, Glenda Ritchie, Ms Margaret Turner, Karl Connarty, Michael James, Mrs Siân C. Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Twigg, Derek Cooper, Rosie Jamieson, Cathy Roy, Mr Frank Umunna, Mr Chuka Cooper, rh Yvette Jarvis, Dan Roy, Lindsay Vaz, rh Keith Corbyn, Jeremy Johnson, rh Alan Ruane, Chris Vaz, Valerie Crausby, Mr David Johnson, Diana Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Watson, Mr Tom Creagh, Mary Jones, Graham Sarwar, Anas Watts, Mr Dave Creasy, Stella Jones, Helen Shannon, Jim Weir, Mr Mike Cruddas, Jon Jones, Mr Kevan Sharma, Mr Virendra Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Cryer, John Jones, Susan Elan Sheerman, Mr Barry Williams, Hywel Cunningham, Alex Joyce, Eric Sheridan, Jim Williamson, Chris Cunningham, Mr Jim Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Simpson, David Winnick, Mr David Dakin, Nic Keeley, Barbara Skinner, Mr Dennis Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Danczuk, Simon Kendall, Liz Slaughter, Mr Andy Wishart, Pete Darling, rh Mr Alistair Khan, rh Sadiq Smith, rh Mr Andrew Woodward, rh Mr Shaun David, Wayne Lavery, Ian Smith, Angela Wright, David Davidson, Mr Ian Leslie, Chris Smith, Owen Wright, Mr Iain Davies, Geraint Lewis, Mr Ivan Spellar, rh Mr John Tellers for the Ayes: De Piero, Gloria Lloyd, Tony Straw, rh Mr Jack Mr David Hamilton and Denham, rh Mr John Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Stringer, Graham Phil Wilson Dobbin, Jim Long, Naomi Dobson, rh Frank Lucas, Caroline Docherty, Thomas Lucas, Ian NOES Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Adams, Nigel Cairns, Alun Donohoe, Mr Brian H. MacShane, rh Mr Denis Afriyie, Adam Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Doran, Mr Frank Mactaggart, Fiona Amess, Mr David Carmichael, Neil Dowd, Jim Mahmood, Mr Khalid Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Carswell, Mr Douglas Doyle, Gemma Mahmood, Shabana Bacon, Mr Richard Cash, Mr William Dromey, Jack Malhotra, Seema Baker, Norman Chishti, Rehman Dugher, Michael Mann, John Baldry, Sir Tony Chope, Mr Christopher Durkan, Mark Marsden, Mr Gordon Baldwin, Harriett Clark, rh Greg Eagle, Ms Angela McCabe, Steve Barclay, Stephen Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Edwards, Jonathan McCann, Mr Michael Barker, rh Gregory Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Elliott, Julie McCarthy, Kerry Baron, Mr John Coffey, Dr Thérèse Engel, Natascha McClymont, Gregg Barwell, Gavin Collins, Damian Esterson, Bill McCrea, Dr William Bebb, Guto Colvile, Oliver Evans, Chris McDonnell, John Beith, rh Sir Alan Crabb, Stephen Farrelly, Paul McGovern, Alison Bellingham, Mr Henry Crockart, Mike Field, rh Mr Frank McGovern, Jim Beresford, Sir Paul Crouch, Tracey Fitzpatrick, Jim McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Bingham, Andrew Davies, Philip Flello, Robert McKechin, Ann Binley, Mr Brian Davis, rh Mr David Flint, rh Caroline McKenzie, Mr Iain Birtwistle, Gordon de Bois, Nick Fovargue, Yvonne McKinnell, Catherine Blackman, Bob Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Francis, Dr Hywel Meacher, rh Mr Michael Blackwood, Nicola Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Gapes, Mike Mearns, Ian Blunt, Mr Crispin Dorries, Nadine Gilmore, Sheila Michael, rh Alun Boles, Nick Doyle-Price, Jackie Glass, Pat Miller, Andrew Bone, Mr Peter Drax, Richard Glindon, Mrs Mary Mitchell, Austin Brake, rh Tom Duddridge, James Godsiff, Mr Roger Moon, Mrs Madeleine Bray, Angie Duncan, rh Mr Alan Goodman, Helen Morden, Jessica Brazier, Mr Julian Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Greatrex, Tom Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Bridgen, Andrew Ellis, Michael Green, Kate Morris, Grahame M. Brine, Steve Ellison, Jane Griffith, Nia (Easington) Brokenshire, James Ellwood, Mr Tobias Hain, rh Mr Peter Mudie, Mr George Brooke, Annette Eustice, George Hamilton, Fabian Munn, Meg Bruce, Fiona Evans, Graham Harman, rh Ms Harriet Murphy, rh Mr Jim Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Evans, Jonathan Harris, Mr Tom Murray, Ian Buckland, Mr Robert Evennett, Mr David Havard, Mr Dai Nandy, Lisa Burley, Mr Aidan Fabricant, Michael Healey, rh John Nash, Pamela Burns, Conor Farron, Tim Hendrick, Mark Onwurah, Chi Burns, rh Mr Simon Fox,rhDrLiam Hepburn, Mr Stephen Osborne, Sandra Burrowes, Mr David Francois, rh Mr Mark Hermon, Lady Owen, Albert , rh Paul Freer, Mike Heyes, David Paisley, Ian Burt, Lorely Fuller, Richard Hillier, Meg Pearce, Teresa Byles, Dan Gale, Sir Roger Hilling, Julie Perkins, Toby Cable, rh Vince Garnier, Sir Edward 367 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 368 Bill Bill Gauke, Mr David Lord, Jonathan Skidmore, Chris Walker, Mr Charles George, Andrew Luff, Peter Smith, Miss Chloe Walker, Mr Robin Gibb, Mr Nick Lumley, Karen Smith, Henry Wallace, Mr Ben Gilbert, Stephen Macleod, Mary Smith, Julian Walter, Mr Robert Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Main, Mrs Anne Smith, Sir Robert Ward, Mr David Glen, John Maude, rh Mr Francis Soames, rh Nicholas Watkinson, Angela Goldsmith, Zac Maynard, Paul Soubry, Anna Weatherley, Mike Goodwill, Mr Robert McCartney, Jason Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Webb, Steve Graham, Richard McCartney, Karl Stephenson, Andrew Wharton, James Grant, Mrs Helen McIntosh, Miss Anne Stevenson, John Wheeler, Heather Gray, Mr James McVey, Esther Stewart, Bob White, Chris Grayling, rh Chris Menzies, Mark Streeter, Mr Gary Whittaker, Craig Green, rh Damian Metcalfe, Stephen Stride, Mel Whittingdale, Mr John Greening, rh Justine Miller, rh Maria Stunell, rh Andrew Wiggin, Bill Griffiths, Andrew Mills, Nigel Sturdy, Julian Willetts, rh Mr David Gummer, Ben Milton, Anne Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Williams, Mr Mark Gyimah, Mr Sam Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Swinson, Jo Williams, Roger Halfon, Robert Moore, rh Michael Syms, Mr Robert Williams, Stephen Hames, Duncan Mordaunt, Penny Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Williamson, Gavin Hammond, rh Mr Philip Morgan, Nicky Teather, Sarah Willott, Jenny Hancock, Matthew Morris, Anne Marie Timpson, Mr Edward Wilson, Mr Rob Hands, Greg Morris, James Tomlinson, Justin Wollaston, Dr Sarah Harper, Mr Mark Mosley, Stephen Tredinnick, David Wright, Jeremy Harris, Rebecca Mowat, David Uppal, Paul Young, rh Sir George Hart, Simon Mulholland, Greg Vara, Mr Shailesh Tellers for the Noes: Harvey, Sir Nick Mundell, rh David Vickers, Martin Karen Bradley and Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Munt, Tessa Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Mark Hunter Heath, Mr David Murray, Sheryll Heaton-Harris, Chris Murrison, Dr Andrew Hemming, John Newmark, Mr Brooks Question accordingly negatived. Henderson, Gordon Newton, Sarah Amendments made: 8, page 8, leave out lines 22 to 27 Hendry, Charles Norman, Jesse and insert— Herbert, rh Nick Nuttall, Mr David ‘(1) Evidence of pre-termination negotiations is inadmissible Hoban, Mr Mark O’Brien, Mr Stephen in any proceedings on a complaint under section 111. Hollingbery, George Offord, Dr Matthew Hollobone, Mr Philip Ollerenshaw, Eric This is subject to subsections (2) to (4). Holloway, Mr Adam Opperman, Guy (1A) In subsection (1) “pre-termination negotiations” means Horwood, Martin Ottaway, Richard any offer made or discussions held, before the termination of the Howarth, Sir Gerald Paice, rh Sir James employment in question, with a view to it being terminated on Howell, John , Neil terms agreed between the employer and the employee.’. Huhne, rh Chris Patel, Priti Amendment 9, page 8, line 36, leave out from beginning Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Paterson, rh Mr Owen to second ‘to’ in line 37 and insert Huppert, Dr Julian Pawsey, Mark ‘Subsection (1) does not affect the admissibility, on any Hurd, Mr Nick Penning, Mike question as to costs or expenses, of evidence relating’. Jackson, Mr Stewart Penrose, John Amendment 10, page 8, leave out lines 40 to 43.— James, Margot Percy, Andrew (Jo Swinson.) Javid, Sajid Phillips, Stephen Jenkin, Mr Bernard Pincher, Christopher Johnson, Gareth Poulter, Dr Daniel Clause 13 Johnson, Joseph Prisk, Mr Mark POWER BY ORDER TO INCREASE OR DECREASE LIMIT OF Jones, Andrew Raab, Mr Dominic COMPENSATORY AWARD Jones, Mr Marcus Randall, rh Mr John Kawczynski, Daniel Reckless, Mark Amendment proposed: 82, page 9, line 1, leave out Kelly, Chris Redwood, rh Mr John clause 13. Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Reid, Mr Alan Question put, That the amendment be made. Kirby, Simon Robathan, rh Mr Andrew The House divided: Ayes 223, Noes 290. Knight, rh Mr Greg Robertson, rh Hugh Laing, Mrs Eleanor Robertson, Mr Laurence Division No. 77] [3.9 pm Lamb, Norman Rogerson, Dan AYES Lancaster, Mark Rosindell, Andrew Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Rudd, Amber Abbott, Ms Diane Barron, rh Mr Kevin Laws, rh Mr David Ruffley, Mr David Abrahams, Debbie Beckett, rh Margaret Leadsom, Andrea Russell, Sir Bob Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Begg, Dame Anne Lee, Jessica Rutley, David Alexander, Heidi Benn, rh Hilary Lee, Dr Phillip Sanders, Mr Adrian Ali, Rushanara Benton, Mr Joe Lefroy, Jeremy Sandys, Laura Allen, Mr Graham Berger, Luciana Leigh, Mr Edward Scott, Mr Lee Anderson, Mr David Betts, Mr Clive Leslie, Charlotte Selous, Andrew Austin, Ian Blackman-Woods, Roberta Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Shapps, rh Grant Bailey, Mr Adrian Blenkinsop, Tom Lilley, rh Mr Peter Sharma, Alok Bain, Mr William Blomfield, Paul Lloyd, Stephen Shelbrooke, Alec Balls, rh Ed Blunkett, rh Mr David Lopresti, Jack Shepherd, Mr Richard Banks, Gordon Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben 369 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 370 Bill Bill Brennan, Kevin Hendrick, Mark Onwurah, Chi Straw, rh Mr Jack Brown, Lyn Hepburn, Mr Stephen Osborne, Sandra Stringer, Graham Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hermon, Lady Owen, Albert Stuart, Ms Gisela Brown, Mr Russell Heyes, David Pearce, Teresa Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Bryant, Chris Hillier, Meg Perkins, Toby Tami, Mark Burden, Richard Hilling, Julie Phillipson, Bridget Thomas, Mr Gareth Burnham, rh Andy Hodge, rh Margaret Pound, Stephen Thornberry, Emily Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Qureshi, Yasmin Timms, rh Stephen Campbell, Mr Alan Hoey, Kate Reed, Mr Jamie Trickett, Jon Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hopkins, Kelvin Reeves, Rachel Turner, Karl Clark, Katy Hosie, Stewart Reynolds, Emma Twigg, Derek Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hunt, Tristram Riordan, Mrs Linda Umunna, Mr Chuka Coaker, Vernon Irranca-Davies, Huw Ritchie, Ms Margaret Vaz, rh Keith Coffey, Ann Jackson, Glenda Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Vaz, Valerie Connarty, Michael James, Mrs Siân C. Roy, Mr Frank Watson, Mr Tom Cooper, Rosie Jamieson, Cathy Roy, Lindsay Watts, Mr Dave Cooper, rh Yvette Jarvis, Dan Ruane, Chris Weir, Mr Mike Corbyn, Jeremy Johnson, rh Alan Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Crausby, Mr David Johnson, Diana Sarwar, Anas Williams, Hywel Creagh, Mary Jones, Graham Shannon, Jim Williamson, Chris Creasy, Stella Jones, Helen Sharma, Mr Virendra Winnick, Mr David Cruddas, Jon Jones, Mr Kevan Sheerman, Mr Barry Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Cryer, John Jones, Susan Elan Sheridan, Jim Wishart, Pete Cunningham, Alex Joyce, Eric Shuker, Gavin Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Cunningham, Mr Jim Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Skinner, Mr Dennis Wright, David Dakin, Nic Keeley, Barbara Slaughter, Mr Andy Wright, Mr Iain Danczuk, Simon Kendall, Liz Smith, rh Mr Andrew Darling, rh Mr Alistair Khan, rh Sadiq Smith, Angela Tellers for the Ayes: David, Wayne Lavery, Ian Smith, Owen Phil Wilson and Davidson, Mr Ian Leslie, Chris Spellar, rh Mr John Mr David Hamilton Davies, Geraint Lewis, Mr Ivan De Piero, Gloria Lloyd, Tony NOES Denham, rh Mr John Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Dobbin, Jim Long, Naomi Adams, Nigel Burns, rh Mr Simon Dobson, rh Frank Lucas, Caroline Afriyie, Adam Burrowes, Mr David Docherty, Thomas Lucas, Ian Amess, Mr David Burstow, rh Paul Donohoe, Mr Brian H. MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Andrew, Stuart Burt, Alistair Doran, Mr Frank MacShane, rh Mr Denis Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Burt, Lorely Dowd, Jim Mactaggart, Fiona Bacon, Mr Richard Byles, Dan Doyle, Gemma Mahmood, Mr Khalid Baker, Norman Cable, rh Vince Dromey, Jack Mahmood, Shabana Baker, Steve Cairns, Alun Dugher, Michael Malhotra, Seema Baldry, Sir Tony Campbell, Mr Gregory Durkan, Mark Mann, John Baldwin, Harriett Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Eagle, Ms Angela Marsden, Mr Gordon Barclay, Stephen Carmichael, Neil Eagle, Maria McCabe, Steve Barker, rh Gregory Carswell, Mr Douglas Edwards, Jonathan McCann, Mr Michael Baron, Mr John Cash, Mr William Efford, Clive McCarthy, Kerry Barwell, Gavin Chishti, Rehman Elliott, Julie McClymont, Gregg Bebb, Guto Chope, Mr Christopher Engel, Natascha McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Beith, rh Sir Alan Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Esterson, Bill McDonnell, John Bellingham, Mr Henry Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Evans, Chris McGovern, Alison Beresford, Sir Paul Coffey, Dr Thérèse Field, rh Mr Frank McGovern, Jim Bingham, Andrew Collins, Damian Fitzpatrick, Jim McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Binley, Mr Brian Colvile, Oliver Flello, Robert McKechin, Ann Birtwistle, Gordon Crabb, Stephen Flint, rh Caroline McKenzie, Mr Iain Blackman, Bob Crockart, Mike Fovargue, Yvonne McKinnell, Catherine Blackwood, Nicola Crouch, Tracey Francis, Dr Hywel Meacher, rh Mr Michael Blunt, Mr Crispin Davies, Glyn Gapes, Mike Mearns, Ian Boles, Nick Davies, Philip Gilmore, Sheila Michael, rh Alun Bone, Mr Peter Davis, rh Mr David Glass, Pat Miller, Andrew Bradley, Karen de Bois, Nick Glindon, Mrs Mary Mitchell, Austin Brake, rh Tom Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Godsiff, Mr Roger Moon, Mrs Madeleine Bray, Angie Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Goodman, Helen Morden, Jessica Brazier, Mr Julian Dorries, Nadine Greatrex, Tom Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Bridgen, Andrew Doyle-Price, Jackie Green, Kate Morris, Grahame M. Brine, Steve Drax, Richard Griffith, Nia (Easington) Brokenshire, James Duddridge, James Hain, rh Mr Peter Mudie, Mr George Brooke, Annette Duncan, rh Mr Alan Hamilton, Fabian Munn, Meg Bruce, Fiona Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Harman, rh Ms Harriet Murphy, rh Mr Jim Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Ellis, Michael Harris, Mr Tom Murray, Ian Buckland, Mr Robert Ellison, Jane Havard, Mr Dai Nandy, Lisa Burley, Mr Aidan Ellwood, Mr Tobias Healey, rh John Nash, Pamela Burns, Conor Eustice, George 371 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 372 Bill Bill Evans, Graham Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Robertson, rh Hugh Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Evans, Jonathan Laws, rh Mr David Robertson, Mr Laurence Teather, Sarah Evennett, Mr David Leadsom, Andrea Rogerson, Dan Timpson, Mr Edward Fabricant, Michael Lee, Jessica Rosindell, Andrew Tomlinson, Justin Farron, Tim Lee, Dr Phillip Rudd, Amber Turner, Mr Andrew Fox,rhDrLiam Lefroy, Jeremy Ruffley, Mr David Uppal, Paul Freer, Mike Leigh, Mr Edward Russell, Sir Bob Vara, Mr Shailesh Fuller, Richard Leslie, Charlotte Rutley, David Vickers, Martin Gale, Sir Roger Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Sanders, Mr Adrian Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Garnier, Sir Edward Lilley, rh Mr Peter Sandys, Laura Walker, Mr Charles Gauke, Mr David Lopresti, Jack Scott, Mr Lee Walker, Mr Robin George, Andrew Lord, Jonathan Selous, Andrew Wallace, Mr Ben Gibb, Mr Nick Loughton, Tim Shapps, rh Grant Walter, Mr Robert Gilbert, Stephen Luff, Peter Sharma, Alok Ward, Mr David Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lumley, Karen Shelbrooke, Alec Watkinson, Angela Glen, John Macleod, Mary Shepherd, Mr Richard Weatherley, Mike Goldsmith, Zac Main, Mrs Anne Simmonds, Mark Wharton, James Goodwill, Mr Robert Maude, rh Mr Francis Simpson, David Wheeler, Heather Gove, rh Michael Maynard, Paul Skidmore, Chris White, Chris Graham, Richard McCartney, Jason Smith, Miss Chloe Whittaker, Craig Grant, Mrs Helen McCartney, Karl Smith, Henry Whittingdale, Mr John Gray, Mr James McCrea, Dr William Smith, Julian Wiggin, Bill Grayling, rh Chris McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Sir Robert Willetts, rh Mr David Green, rh Damian McPartland, Stephen Soames, rh Nicholas Williams, Mr Mark Greening, rh Justine McVey, Esther Soubry, Anna Williams, Roger Griffiths, Andrew Menzies, Mark Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Williams, Stephen Gummer, Ben Mercer, Patrick Stephenson, Andrew Willott, Jenny Gyimah, Mr Sam Metcalfe, Stephen Stevenson, John Wilson, Mr Rob Halfon, Robert Miller, rh Maria Stewart, Bob Wilson, Sammy Hames, Duncan Mills, Nigel Streeter, Mr Gary Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hancock, Matthew Milton, Anne Stride, Mel Wright, Jeremy Hands, Greg Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stunell, rh Andrew Young, rh Sir George Harper, Mr Mark Moore, rh Michael Sturdy, Julian Harris, Rebecca Mordaunt, Penny Swales, Ian Tellers for the Noes: Hart, Simon Morgan, Nicky Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Mark Hunter and Harvey, Sir Nick Morris, Anne Marie Swinson, Jo Mr Robert Syms Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morris, James Heath, Mr David Mosley, Stephen Question accordingly negatived. Heaton-Harris, Chris Mowat, David Hemming, John Mulholland, Greg Amendments made: 11, page 9, leave out lines 8 to 10 Hendry, Charles Mundell, rh David and insert— Herbert, rh Nick Munt, Tessa ‘(b) the lower of— Hinds, Damian Murray, Sheryll (i) a specified amount, and Hoban, Mr Mark Murrison, Dr Andrew (ii) a specified number multiplied by a week’s pay of Hollingbery, George Neill, Robert the individual concerned.’. Hollobone, Mr Philip Newmark, Mr Brooks Amendment 12, page 9, line 11, after ‘(2)(a)’ insert ‘or Holloway, Mr Adam Newton, Sarah (b)(i)’. Horwood, Martin Norman, Jesse Howarth, Sir Gerald Nuttall, Mr David Amendment 13, page 9, line 13, after ‘(2)(a)’ insert ‘or Howell, John O’Brien, Mr Stephen (b)(i)’. Hughes, rh Simon Offord, Dr Matthew Amendment 14, page 9, line 16, after ‘(2)(b)’ insert Huhne, rh Chris Ollerenshaw, Eric ‘(ii)’. Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Opperman, Guy Amendment 15, page 9, line 38, after ‘13(2)(b)’ insert Huppert, Dr Julian Ottaway, Richard ‘(ii)’.—(Jo Swinson.) Hurd, Mr Nick Paice, rh Sir James Jackson, Mr Stewart Paisley, Ian Clause 17 James, Margot Parish, Neil Javid, Sajid Patel, Priti RENAMING OF “COMPROMISE AGREEMENTS”, Jenkin, Mr Bernard Paterson, rh Mr Owen “COMPROMISE CONTRACTS” AND “COMPROMISES” Johnson, Gareth Pawsey, Mark Amendments made: 16, page 12, line 23, leave out Johnson, Joseph Penning, Mike paragraph (c). Jones, Andrew Penrose, John Jones, rh Mr David Percy, Andrew Amendment 17, page 12, line 35, at end insert— Jones, Mr Marcus Phillips, Stephen ‘(2A) In section 49 of the National Minimum Wage Act 1998 Kawczynski, Daniel Pincher, Christopher (restrictions on contracting out)— Kelly, Chris Prisk, Mr Mark (a) in subsections (3) and (4), for “compromise” (in each Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Raab, Mr Dominic place where it occurs) substitute “settlement”; Kirby, Simon Randall, rh Mr John (b) after subsection (8) insert— Knight, rh Mr Greg Reckless, Mark (8A) In the application of this section in relation to Northern Laing, Mrs Eleanor Redwood, rh Mr John Ireland, subsections (3) and (4) above shall have effect as if for Lamb, Norman Reid, Mr Alan “settlement agreements” (in each place) there were substituted Lancaster, Mark Robathan, rh Mr Andrew “compromise agreements.”’.—(Jo Swinson.) 373 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 374 Bill Bill New Clause 22 Amendment 89, page 3, line 24, clause 4, at end add— INTERPRETATION OF THE GREEN PURPOSES: DUTY TO ‘( ) Subject to approval by the European Commission of the ASSESS IMPACT ON THE CLIMATE CHANGE ACT 2008 State aid notification concerning the establishment of the UK ‘(1) In interpreting the purposes in section 1(1)(a) to (e), it is Green Investment Bank, it is the duty of the Secretary of State to the duty of the UK Green Investment Bank to assess whether the provide the European Commission with State aid notification implementation of its investment strategy, or similar document concerning the intention to allow the Bank to borrow, including outlining or amending the proposed investment portfolio of the borrowing from the capital markets. UK Green Investment Bank will, as a whole, increase the ( ) The duty in the above subsection must be fulfilled no later likelihood of achieving carbon budgets and greenhouse than 31 December 2013. reduction targets as set out under the Climate Change Act 2008. ( ) In the event the European Commission approves the State (2) In subsection (1), whether or not an investment strategy aid notification concerning borrowing, it is the duty of the will increase the likelihood of achieving carbon budgets and Treasury and of the Secretary of State to permit the Green greenhouse gas reduction targets shall be assessed compared to a Investment Bank to begin borrowing from the capital markets no scenario where identified investments or investment categories later than 30 June 2015, or, if State aid approval has not been did not proceed. received by that date, no later than one month from the date of (3) In undertaking the assessment required under approval.’. subsection (1), it is the duty of the UK Green Investment Bank Government amendments 4 and 5 to have regard to the advice and reports of the Committee on Climate Change required under sections 34, 36 and 38 of the Amendment 78, page 4, line 9, clause 6, at end add— Climate Change Act 2008. ‘(5) The Secretary of State will be required to receive independent expert review of the performance of the UK Green (4) The Board must make a decision to adopt or amend its Investment Bank. investment strategy or similar document described in subsection (1), unless it is satisfied, as a result of the assessment in subsection (1), (6) The Secretary of State will be required to receive such a that the proposed investment portfolio will, as a whole, increase review no less than every five years. the likelihood of achieving carbon budgets and greenhouse gas (7) An interim review no less frequently than every two and reduction targets under the Climate Change Act 2008.’.—(Mr Iain half years. Wright.) (8) The independent expert review in subsection (5) must, in Brought up, and read the First time. particular, include or contain information relating to— (a) an assessment of the UK Green Investment Bank’s Mr Iain Wright: I beg to move, That the clause be environmental performance in fulfilling the green purposes read a Second time. as set out in section 1. (b) an analysis of the main trends and factors likely to Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): With this it affect the future development, performance and will be convenient to discuss the following: investments of the UK Green Investment bank, New clause 25—The UK Green Investment Bank: (c) macroeconomic analysis, including assessments of demand in the UK economy and international prohibition on investment in nuclear power or the nuclear factors likely to affect green investment and skills industry— within the relevant industries, ‘The UK Green Investment Bank may not engage in activities (d) assessment of the competitiveness of the UK Green that involve facilitating or encouraging investment in nuclear Investment Bank in securing competitive advantage power or the nuclear industry.’. for the UK in green and low carbon economies Amendment 77, page 1, line 11, clause 1, at end add— relative to other countries, and ‘(3) In undertaking investments in accordance with the green (e) recommendations to improve the UK Green purposes outlined in subsection (1), the UK Green Investment Investment Bank’s impact in fulfilling its green Bank will identify opportunities in which small and medium- purposes in section 1. sized enterprises can be awarded contracts.’. (9) Prior to the commencement of a review in relation to Government amendments 1, 2 and 3 subsection (5), the Secretary of State must request the views of— Amendment 76, page 3, line 24, clause 4, at end add— (a) The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, (b) The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and ‘(7) Subject to the approval by the European Commission of Rural Affairs, the State aid notification concerning the establishment of the UK Green Investment Bank, the Secretary of State shall provide (c) The Committee on Climate Change, the European Commission with State aid notification concerning (d) Ministers from the devolved administrations, the intention to allow the Bank to borrow, including borrowing (e) investors and interested parties, and from the capital markets. (f) members of the public, (8) The duty in subsection (7) must be fulfilled no later than and provide a copy of the results of the consultations to the 31 December 2013. person or persons undertaking the independent review. (9) It is the duty of HM Treasury and the Secretary of State to (10) The Secretary of State, in the capacity of shareholder, either— must provide such information as he considers reasonable to (a) permit the UK Green Investment Bank to begin enable the person or body undertaking the review to fulfil the borrowing from the capital markets by April 2015, or requirements of this subsection. (b) to present to Parliament a report within one month of (11) A review made in relation to subsection (5) must be the passage of this Act giving a clear, certain, alternative published and laid before both Houses of Parliament.’. date for the UK Green Investment Bank to begin borrowing, based on Office for Budget Responsibility forecasts for the public finances and advice from the Mr Wright: Those hon. Members who served on the Green Investment Bank on its need for borrowing Committee will recall that we spent a great deal of time powers, considering whether the green purposes of the green both subject to the European Commission approving the State investment bank, as set out in clause 1, were appropriate— aid notification concerning borrowing.’. namely, whether they were too restrictive or limiting to 375 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 376 Bill Bill [Mr Iain Wright] Mr Wright: I understand that. The hon. Gentleman will recall that I posed a number of questions in Committee: prevent long-term investment in innovative low-carbon could the green investment bank invest in forests or in technologies or too wide or broad as to mean that the supply chain for the automotive industry to ensure high-carbon investments could not be considered by the that we have low-carbon engines? There was a whole bank. As I said, we deliberated over this issue in Committee range of different debates in Committee, which I thought at length. were useful. As I said, there is a balance to be struck, Of the five criteria, only one needs to be met to justify and that is what new clause 22 is about. Is the aim to the appropriateness of investment by the bank. Was achieve what we all want to achieve—igniting, for want clause 1(1)(b), which refers to of a better term, the green economy—or is the provision “the advancement of efficiency in the use of natural resources” too prescriptive? There is a balance between being too sufficiently tight and robust to deal with the need to broad and too narrow. ensure that the green economy and the transition to a David Mowat: I thank the shadow Minister, but I am low-carbon economy are put into effect? In Committee, a bit disappointed by the tone of his remarks. I want to I used the example of a gas-fired power station that get clarity about the point that was raised a few moments might be marginally more efficient in its use of the ago about nuclear, so that I can understand the position earth’s natural resources given 2012 levels, but might of those on the Opposition Front Bench. Would Sheffield well be seen as hopelessly dirty and inefficient by 2030. Forgemasters, for example, which is a nuclear supply That is the purpose of new clause 22—to deal with chain company, be eligible for assistance from the bank? concerns that investments by the bank might not be in keeping with its green purposes, or at least the spirit Mr Wright: The hon. Gentleman will recall that I behind those purposes. That is why we thought that mentioned this issue at length in Committee, when he making an explicit link with the Climate Change Act 2008 quite rightly probed me on it. I reiterate my answer to would be the best way for an appropriate balance to be the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr struck between giving the bank the flexibility to consider (Jonathan Edwards) a few moments ago. There is a its investment portfolio and ensuring that it cannot and conflict here. What is the purpose of the green investment does not decide to fund high-carbon investments. New bank: is it to ensure that we have innovative technologies clause 22 therefore proposes that the green investment where there is current market failure making it difficult assesses whether its investment portfolio helps the to get investment, or is it to ensure that we do as much achievement of carbon budget and greenhouse reduction as possible to tackle carbon emissions, meet low-carbon targets as set out under the 2008 legislation. targets and so forth? Within that, nuclear could be a source of investment. Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC): Do the criteria that the hon. Gentleman has Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green) rose— noted extend to nuclear energy? Mr Wright: Before I give way, I should declare an Mr Wright: We can consider that when hon. Members interest in that I have a nuclear power station in my debate new clause 25. We had considerable debate about constituency. I would quite like another one, and I think it in Committee. The question now is: what is the that part of that supply chain could be considered by purpose of the green investment bank? Is to ensure that the green investment bank. I would certainly like more we can kick-start innovative technologies that cannot clarity on this from the Government. have market buy-in, or is it a question of ensuring that the targets set out in the 2008 Act are met? There is a The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Skills conflict there, which we considered in Committee at (Matthew Hancock) rose— some length. I think that there is potential to consider nuclear, certainly in respect of the nuclear supply chain Mr Wright: I shall give way to the hon. Member for and ensuring that we can achieve these objectives. I am Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) first, and then to keen to hear the debate over this matter in the next few the Minister. moments. It is important to probe the Government on Caroline Lucas: To be honest, I do not see this whether this is an appropriate avenue for the bank to contradiction. Given that nuclear takes so long to get invest in. up and running, it is not going to help us to meet our Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con) rose— carbon targets fast enough. It also requires Government subsidy, which is why the whole of the EMR—electricity David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con) rose— market reform—is being rigged to deal with that. Also, the jobs that we hope the green investment bank will Mr Wright: I shall give way to two eminent members create will surely be jobs that we would like to see here of the Public Bill Committee, but I must bear in mind in the UK. If we use the bank to subsidise nuclear, what the fact that we do not have time to debate these issues we are doing is basically subsidising jobs in places like at length. Russia, China and France. Neil Carmichael: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that Mr Wright: I shall come on to this in a few moments. generous introduction. I am glad I stood up when I did. Because of a huge lack of clarity in the Government’s The danger of the shadow Minister’s speech so far is energy policy—anywhere, but particularly in respect of that he is focusing on energy, where, of course, a green the renewable energy component—many foreign investors investment bank should be considering many other will not view the UK as the destination of choice for technologies and many other issues than energy. That is investment in any case. We have huge potential to be the one of the problems with new clause 22. market leader for renewable and low-carbon technologies, 377 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 378 Bill Bill but I think we are missing a trick when it comes to the companies were building offshore wind turbines elsewhere. scale of ambition and the time scale of the green “These companies remain uncertain about investing in the investment bank. The purpose of the new clause is to UK… the impression that the coalition is split has spooked probe and challenge the Government to ensure that we companies whose boards need to commit capital for 20, 30, make this part of a growth strategy rather than to allow 50 years, whether in wind or nuclear power, biomass or solar.” it to happen somewhere in the future in a way that Is not the lack of the long-term certainty that is so makes it virtually meaningless. necessary undermining the chances of jobs and growth in this crucial area? Matthew Hancock: Given the shortage of time, it may be helpful if I deal with two points now. I can David Mowat: I thank the shadow Minister for telling confirm first that the European Commission has granted me what I should say in my intervention. What I was state aid approval to the green investment bank, and going to say was that, although I did not catch the name secondly that the Commission strongly discouraged the of every company in the list that he read out, I am inclusion of nuclear in our application for state aid. Its pretty sure that the headquarters of all of them are inclusion would have delayed approval, and nuclear outside the UK—as, by the way, are those of the major projects are therefore not in scope in respect of the manufacturers of offshore wind. And, yes, it is a problem. current application. Mr Wright: That is why I am pleased that the hon. Mr Wright: I thank the Minister for his clarification. Gentleman will be supporting our amendment 77—which It is somewhat at odds with what was said in Committee is intended to promote the growth of small and medium- by the then Minister, the hon. Member for North sized enterprises in the supply chain and to ensure that Norfolk (Norman Lamb), but we are where we are—and we can realise the great potential of the green economy— I am very grateful to the Minister for his announcement and will object to the Government’s amendments 1 and about the state aid application, because it gets rid of at 3, which state that investment can take place not in the least a paragraph of my speech. UK but elsewhere. As someone who wants to support manufacturing in the UK and the ability of home-grown Let me now deal with amendment 76, which makes businesses to provide jobs, growth and export potential an important point about what the green investment for our companies, he will doubtless be supporting us in bank should be doing in the light of its potential, the the Lobbies. huge opportunities that it provides, and the equally huge scale of the challenge presented by the need for us Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ to decarbonise our economy. If we are to achieve what Co-op): Time will be limited for later speeches, so let me we want to achieve, we need active government. Working say this now. My hon. Friend read out a list of companies with business, the Government must assess our present that had expressed concern about the mixed messages comparative advantage in this sector, and work out how coming from the Government. I know from private we can maintain or enhance that advantage in the discussions that I have had with people in some of those future. companies that they are very worried about where the Government are going, and want more clarity. The 3.30 pm amendment provides a good way of clearing up There is a huge, pressing need for policy certainty for the confusion created by the Government, and making investors in the green economy, but so far the Government their commitment stronger again. have not been able to provide it, to the detriment of the country’s chances—this is relevant to what was said by Mr Wright: I agree. The same point was made by the the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion—and the chances CBI, which concluded in a report produced this summer for jobs and growth. entitled “The Colour of Growth: Maximising the potential Only last week, seven of the world’s largest energy of green business”: and engineering firms wrote to the Chancellor asking “while business wants to keep up the pace, they are equally clear for greater certainty in energy policy to kick-start green that the government’s current approach is missing the mark, with manufacturing investment. The Times reported that policy uncertainty, complexity and the lack of a holistic strategy damaging investment prospects.” such companies as Siemens, Alstom UK, Mitsubishi Power Systems, Areva, Doosan, Gamesa and Vestas The Government and the Minister—when he is listening— had warned that while they saw must respond to that. They must provide policy certainty so that investment can be made in the UK. “potential for significant further investment to support the UK’s move to low carbon generation”, In Committee, when we discussed the green investment that investment would fail to materialise if the Chancellor bank and its borrowing powers, I said that we had and the Government did not take steps to address the thought long and hard about the issue. At the time the high levels of uncertainty and political risk that were then Minister, the hon. Member for North Norfolk, afflicting the sector. said: “The Government have also committed that the Bank will David Mowat: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? borrow from April 2015”, although he then qualified that by using the stock Mr Wright: I know that the hon. Gentleman is a keen phrase advocate of manufacturing in this country, but we “subject to public sector net debt falling as a percentage of require policy certainty. I hope that he will address the GDP.”—[Official Report, 12 July 2012; Vol. 548, c. 793W.] point made in an excellent article by Camilla Cavendish However, given the Government’s failures in relation to that appeared in The Times last month. She wrote that its own borrowing targets, that commitment is so far “instead of building the equipment in England”, from being achieved as to be virtually meaningless. 379 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 380 Bill Bill [Mr Iain Wright] based on the imperative to have the green investment bank borrowing from the capital markets as soon as would contend that a deficit reduction plan without an possible while being mindful of the need for rigour and accompanying growth and employment programme is discipline in the public finances. no deficit reduction plan at all. Neil Carmichael: Is it not possible that the green Ours is one of only two G20 countries in recession. In investment bank can encourage other private organisations March, the Office for Budget Responsibility reported and banks to step in and start contributing to the green that the Government might meet their debt target by economy, as that is really what this is all about? It is the skin of their teeth, but since then borrowing figures about providing the right confidence, on the basis of a have been significantly higher than forecast. The deficit framework of some certainty, which the Minister has is now going up—borrowing is now going up; it has asked for and the Government are giving. increased by 22% so far this year, as a direct result of this Government’s policies. Citigroup forecasts that the Mr Wright: Absolutely, and that is why the hon. Treasury may have to borrow £48 billion more than it Gentleman will be supporting our amendment 77 and originally forecast by 2015-16, meaning that the Chancellor’s rejecting Government amendments 1 and 3. key fiscal target of having public sector net debt falling If our economy has sectoral strengths, it is right, in as a proportion of GDP by 2015 will not be reached. It an active industrial strategy, for the Government to be is widely anticipated that the Chancellor, in his autumn looking to maximise those strengths. They also need to statement to be held in winter, will have to carry out a seek to develop further capabilities, as the hon. Gentleman humiliating climbdown from that important target of rightly said, that could lead to greater investment, growth his, based largely on his misguided economic policies. and employment opportunities here in the UK and, we Where does that leave the green investment bank? At hope, to the exporting, for commercial gain, of some of a time when our potential as a leading market for green the work, expertise and capability here. We want economic business is under threat, both from intense overseas benefits to flow to companies within the United Kingdom. competition and from uncertainty from this Government, That is not to defend protectionism, or to deny the need what impact does this failure of fiscal policy by the for competition and foreign direct investment, but to Chancellor have on this growth area? That is the context ensure that the Government, as part of a fundamental, behind our amendment 76. We want the green investment active, industrial strategy, work with business to see bank to be able to provide a stimulus for growth in our how this country can gain and maintain market advantage. economy as soon as possible, but we are equally mindful Neil Carmichael rose— of the double-dip recession that the Chancellor’s policies have inflicted on the country. Our amendment would Mr Wright: I cannot resist giving way to the hon. ensure that state aid approval on the green investment Gentleman again, even though I am conscious of the bank’s borrowing power would be sought and achieved time, because the manner in which he puts his hand up no later than 31 December 2013. What the Minister has as if he needs to go to the toilet is so endearing. said about that is certainly welcome, but what impact will it have? Does it mean that borrowing will take place Neil Carmichael: I thank the hon. Gentleman for earlier than 2015? When does he imagine borrowing that. It is important to understand the length and from the capital markets will be permitted? complexity of supply chains and that we do not tie ourselves down to thinking that the supply chain is just Our amendment proposes that the bank must be able within Britain, as it goes further than that. We need to begin borrowing by April 2015 or, if that is not appropriate co-operation from the supply chain in big achievable, Parliament must be provided with a clear operations. The Government are rightly focusing on and alternative date as to when such borrowing may be supply chains more generally, but we need to bear that permitted, based both on OBR forecasts regarding the in mind. state of the public finances and on advice from the green investment bank on the need for borrowing powers Mr Wright: Absolutely. I think the hon. Gentleman to achieve its objectives. can go to the toilet now. Recent research has concluded that capital expenditure costs for something as important Caroline Lucas: I wonder why the hon. Gentleman is and significant as offshore wind projects, in which my insisting on that caveat, as the position shared by his constituency could play a leading part, could fall by a Front-Bench colleagues not that long ago was unequivocal third in the next decade if a greater proportion of the in saying that as of June 2015 the bank should be parts were made in the UK. We need to be mindful of permitted to borrow. The Opposition are now moving that and the Government must work with business to away from that position and I simply do not understand enhance the supply chain possibilities, opportunities why. They are watering down what was there before and and capabilities in the UK. I suggest to the hon. Gentleman, is contained in my amendment 89. with the greatest of respect, that that is not happening, largely because of policy uncertainty. That is what Mr Wright: My firm policy commitment is to ensure amendment 77 is designed to address. that we have the green investment bank borrowing as soon as possible, as a stimulus to growth. We were Caroline Lucas: The hon. Gentleman is talking mindful of amendments that we tabled in Committee passionately about policy certainty, yet his amendment 76 about that, but we also have to consider the appalling reintroduces uncertainty. I cannot emphasise enough financial mess that the Government are dealing with in that it is amendment 89 that would ensure that the bank respect of increased borrowing. Borrowing was going would be able to borrow from 2015. It is actually what down prior to the general election, but now it is going the Liberal Democrats agreed at their party conference up. We do not know what the circumstances will be in only a few weeks ago. If the hon. Gentleman wants policy 2015, so we need to ensure that there can be certainty, certainty, why will he not support amendment 89? 381 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 382 Bill Bill Mr Wright: I know that the Liberal Democrats have this country and is likely to continue to do so. Given such power and significance in the coalition that they that, will he amend the purpose stated in clause 1(1)(a), will be able to advance that proposal. If it is one of their as it is no longer accurate? manifesto or conference commitments, it will certainly happen. That might not look as sarcastic as it should do Matthew Hancock: The application, which has just in Hansard, Mr Deputy Speaker. succeeded, did not include nuclear. We do not plan to amend that purpose, not least because the Bill provides The serious and important point at the heart of that the bank can, in time and if appropriate, be moved amendment 76 and amendment 89, tabled by the hon. from the public sector into the private sector using Member for Brighton, Pavilion, is the question of the secondary legislation, without changes having to be extent to which we can have the green investment bank made to primary legislation. operating at scale as quickly as possible, ensuring that it can borrow from the capital markets as quickly as Chris Huhne (Eastleigh) (LD): Will the Minister assure possible and be a major ingredient in the stimulus for the House that when he talks about a powerful institution growth while at the same time being mindful of the to support the transition to a green economy, he is deterioration in the public finances that has largely been talking about a bank that will be able to borrow? I caused by the Government’s economic policies. The regret that the Bill contains no commitment to that emphasis on austerity means that tax receipts are going borrowing. If the bank were able to use the public down and benefit payments are going up, so borrowing spending allocated as a capital base, it would be able to figures have had to rise by more than a fifth in the past borrow, and if it were in line with, for example, the year alone. Bank Nederlandse Gemeenten in the Netherlands, it Let me go back to the point made by the hon. would be able to make approximately £150 billion of Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael). I mentioned extensive loans. That would give far greater and more Government amendments 1 and 3 and I find it baffling powerful support to the green economy than the funding that the amendments state that investments can be currently allocated to it. considered Matthew Hancock: The Government have already “whether in the United Kingdom or elsewhere”. made a clear commitment that the bank will be able to I fully appreciate and support the need to tackle climate borrow from April 2015, subject to public sector net change and the transition to a low-carbon economy on debt falling as a percentage of GDP, and the borrowing an international and multilateral level. The hon. Gentleman could take several forms, including from the capital was quite right to say that supply chains are somewhat markets. I reiterate that commitment today. Nothing in more complex than they would be if they were solely the Bill prevents that from taking place. domesticated. How on earth, however, do these Government As the Bill stands, the bank is allowed to invest only amendments to an enterprise Bill that was supposedly in activities it considers likely to contribute to the designed to improve the competitiveness of the UK achievement of one or more of the green purposes in economy help to stimulate enterprise and economic the UK. Government amendments 1 and 3 would allow activity in this sector in Britain? Is there not a huge risk the bank to invest in activities it considers likely to that Britain’s potential as a world leader in this field will contribute to one or more of the green purposes, whether be lost as a direct result of the Government’s amendments? in the UK or elsewhere. The point about global supply I ask the Minister to think again and to reflect on the chains has already been made powerfully.The amendments amendments we have tabled and on the new clause. will provide important flexibility in the bank’s future As we have only 17 minutes left to debate this subject, activities. We believe that, for the foreseeable future, the which is incredibly important for the future of this bank’s activities should continue to be in the UK, and country, I shall now take my seat. the Government and the Secretary of State, as shareholders in the bank, will be able to ensure that that is the case. Matthew Hancock: I shall try to answer all the questions that have been asked and then leave some time for Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): As I understand it, further comments from other Members who have tabled under the Bill in its current form, the bank would not be amendments and new clauses or who wish to speak. able to invest in a project that crossed borders—for The green investment bank will play a powerful role example, a cable from the Republic of Ireland to the in promoting the green economy. What we heard from UK or a North sea supergrid. Am I correct, or will the the Opposition suggested that they had introduced such amendment allow investment in such projects? a measure themselves, but this is a coalition measure that is testament to the coalition. It is widely and Matthew Hancock: The amendment will allow the strongly supported by Liberal Democrats and Conservatives bank in future to invest in the UK or elsewhere, but we alike and will, I think, help the UK to make a successful have amended the bank’s statement of objects in its transition to a low-carbon economy. I am pleased to articles of association so that the bank’s activities are have been able to confirm that the European Commission limited to those the board considers will, or are reasonably has allowed the bank to make commercial investments likely to, contribute in the UK to one of the green in a wide range of sectors. We are therefore fully on purposes. I hope that that answers both questions and track for the bank to be operational within a matter of addresses the reasonable point made by the Opposition weeks. that UK public spending should have a UK focus. We think this is the way to deliver the best of both worlds. The bank’s directors will be required to act in accordance 3.45 pm with the company’s constitution to ensure that the bank David Mowat: I believe the Minister said that the contributes to the United Kingdom, and there will be European permission excludes nuclear power, which flexibility for the future without the need for future forms by far the largest part of low-carbon electricity in primary legislation. 383 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 384 Bill Bill Mr Iain Wright: Will the Minister talk us through a with its green purposes. It is a major injection of capital scenario in which an investment decision might be which underlines our strong commitment to the bank. made, say, for offshore wind capability, where prices We have also already given a clear commitment that may be cheaper in, say, Germany than in the United the bank will be able to borrow, including from the Kingdom? Will cost or the achievement of the bank’s capital markets. It may help if I explain the legal position purposes be the key consideration? What conflict and in respect of borrowing by the bank. As a company tension exist between cost, value for money and the formed under the Companies Act, the bank already has supply chain capability here in the UK? the power to borrow. The bank’s constitution provides, Matthew Hancock: Clearly, one reason for establishing understandably, that the company will not incur borrowing a green investment bank is to ensure that it delivers without Government consent. This restriction is imposed against the green purposes. Of course cost is vital. That by the Secretary of State as shareholder and does not is why we are setting up the bank so that it will act on a affect the underlying position under company law that commercial basis. The crucial point is that it must act in the company, as a legal person, has the ability to borrow. accordance with one or more of the green purposes, I want to be clear that we are considering carefully otherwise there would be no point in it being a green the case for the bank borrowing from the capital markets investment bank. from 2015-16, subject to the caveats I have mentioned. It is too early to make commitments about the level or David Mowat: For clarity on the point that was made type of funding. The views of the bank’s board will be from the Opposition Benches, there is a proposal for a an important factor, so we will have to discuss with it very large wind farm in the Republic of Ireland, whose the appropriate level and source of future borrowing. output would come over to the UK through an We made a firm commitment in Committee to seek interconnector and would therefore hit our green purposes. state aid approval from the Commission in respect of Could we invest in that scheme in the Republic of borrowing before the end of this Parliament. However, Ireland under the Bill? we cannot move to seek that approval before we know Matthew Hancock: I would want to look at the details the mechanism for and quantum of borrowing. The of the scheme. However, the amendments that we have bank’s borrowing will clearly be scored against national made to the articles of association refer to the bank debt totals, so it is entirely reasonable for the Government contributing in the UK. I would expect, though I cannot to take that into account as part of our future spending formally confirm, that an interconnector would have an and fiscal plans. impact in the UK as well as on the other side of the In summary, the Government agree with hon. Members Irish sea. I will write to my hon. Friend with more about the importance of the issues relating to the bank’s details. funding, and their role in highlighting those here is Amendment 2 was tabled in response to a suggestion welcome, as the Government want no one to be in any from the hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) that doubt about our serious ambitions for the bank and the the designation of the bank should be subject to an green economy. These considerations will clearly be affirmative resolution of Parliament. We made it clear critical to the bank’s future and we will consider carefully in Committee that we are looking towards that. We how to provide clarity, either through the company’s want to ensure that Parliament has the full ability to constitution or by other means, about the legal position scrutinise these issues and I hope the Opposition will with regard to the bank’s borrowing. support that change in arrangements. Amendments 4 and 5 deal with directors’ pay. The Chris Huhne: On the other means, will the Minister Government have repeatedly demonstrated their commit to looking carefully at introducing an amendment commitment to ensuring that UK companies apply the in the other place to put that on the face of the Bill? highest standards of corporate governance. We have already introduced measures under the Bill to require Matthew Hancock: We have been very clear about quoted companies to seek shareholder approval for the our commitment to allow borrowing and will look at directors’ remuneration policy. This change ensures that how best to bring that clarity, which I am sure will the bank will abide by these new commitments so that it include discussions with my right hon. Friend and is treated as a quoted company for the purposes of others. chapters 4 and 4A of part 10 of the Companies Act 2006, On the amendment relating to small and medium-sized and so that the company is required to seek shareholder enterprises, we are strongly committed to supporting approval for the directors’ remuneration policy. This SMEs and, indeed, are already providing major help to requirement would continue if the bank were one day them through, for example, the business growth fund moved into the private sector. I am sure hon. Members and the regional growth fund. I must declare an interest: on both sides of the House will support the Government’s a family business with which I am not directly connected commitment to the very highest standards of corporate is involved in energy efficiency matters. I expect the governance. green investment bank already to benefit SMEs in a Opposition amendments 76 and 89 deal with the number of ways. For instance, some of the smaller bank’s ability to borrow. As I said, the Government funds that have already been set up are likely to generate committed in Budget 2011 to fund the green investment investments for SMEs, provided that their targeted project bank with £3 billion to 2015. This is a serious demonstration size is under £30 million. However, I do not think that of the Government’s green credentials and it is an introducing a statutory basis would help, not least appropriate level of funding for a new financial institution because it would increase the complexity of decision so that it can build market confidence and show a making in the bank, increase uncertainly and could positive commercial return, while mobilising additional increase the likelihood of judicial review. Therefore, we capital for green infrastructure projects in accordance cannot support the amendment. 385 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 386 Bill Bill With regard to amendment 78, on the question of Barron, rh Mr Kevin Godsiff, Mr Roger independent review, we think that parliamentary scrutiny Beckett, rh Margaret Goldsmith, Zac and the normal corporate law requirements will be Begg, Dame Anne Goodman, Helen important. First, Parliament has a vital role in ensuring Benn, rh Hilary Greatrex, Tom that the bank remains green. Secondly, Parliament will Benton, Mr Joe Green, Kate oversee the Secretary of State. Thirdly, I have no doubt Berger, Luciana Griffith, Nia Betts, Mr Clive Hain, rh Mr Peter that the Select Committee and the Environmental Audit Blackman-Woods, Roberta Hamilton, Fabian Committee will look at the bank, and its accounts and Blenkinsop, Tom Harris, Mr Tom reports will be placed before Parliament. However, it is Blomfield, Paul Havard, Mr Dai important to be clear that the bank is a Companies Act Blunkett, rh Mr David Healey, rh John company and, as such, directors owe duties to the Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Hendrick, Mark company rather than directly to Parliament. We dealt Brennan, Kevin Hepburn, Mr Stephen with new clause 25 earlier in the debate on nuclear power. Brown, Lyn Hermon, Lady Finally, the green purposes are clearly important as Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Heyes, David they relate to the essence of the green investment bank Brown, Mr Russell Hillier, Meg and to the company’s green objectives. Our goal is to Bryant, Chris Hilling, Julie Burden, Richard Hodge, rh Margaret have a broad definition of what is green. We agree that Burnham, rh Andy Hodgson, Mrs Sharon the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions is a vital Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hoey, Kate objective, which is why four of the five priority sectors Campbell, Mr Alan Hopkins, Kelvin relate directly to it. The bank will be required to report Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hosie, Stewart on greenhouse gas emissions associated with its own Clark, Katy Hunt, Tristram activities and the board has agreed that the bank will Clarke, rh Mr Tom Irranca-Davies, Huw also report on the greenhouse gas impacts of its own Coaker, Vernon Jackson, Glenda investments. Coffey, Ann James, Mrs Siân C. Connarty, Michael Jamieson, Cathy Caroline Lucas: I am grateful to the Minister for Cooper, Rosie Jarvis, Dan giving way, because although we have nearly run out of Cooper, rh Yvette Johnson, rh Alan time—we knew we would when the Government voted Corbyn, Jeremy Johnson, Diana for the programme motion—I want to put clearly on Crausby, Mr David Jones, Graham Creagh, Mary Jones, Helen the record the fact that unless the bank’s ability to Creasy, Stella Jones, Mr Kevan borrow is included in the Bill it risks being nothing Cruddas, Jon Joyce, Eric more than a fund, which would be a tragedy. I say again Cryer, John Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald that if the Liberal Democrats want to vote in line with Cunningham, Alex Keeley, Barbara their own manifesto and their party policy, agreed Cunningham, Mr Jim Kendall, Liz scarcely a few weeks ago in Brighton, they should Dakin, Nic Khan, rh Sadiq support amendment 89, which I would have loved to Danczuk, Simon Lavery, Ian have pushed to a vote. David, Wayne Lazarowicz, Mark Davidson, Mr Ian Leslie, Chris Matthew Hancock: The Liberal Democrats and, indeed, Davies, Geraint Lewis, Mr Ivan the Conservatives are supporting this with £3 billion of De Piero, Gloria Lloyd, Tony Government and taxpayers’ money, and that demonstrates Denham, rh Mr John Long, Naomi their commitment. However, we need a balance. The Dobbin, Jim Lucas, Caroline Dobson, rh Frank Lucas, Ian new clause would increase again the chance of judicial Docherty, Thomas MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan review. Nevertheless, while we are clear that the overall Donohoe, Mr Brian H. MacShane, rh Mr Denis goal must be carbon emissions, we do not want to rule Doran, Mr Frank Mactaggart, Fiona out other investments, some of which were mentioned Dowd, Jim Mahmood, Mr Khalid by the shadow Minister, and support for wider green Doyle, Gemma Mahmood, Shabana measures. We will therefore consider tabling a further Dromey, Jack Malhotra, Seema Government amendment in the other place to clarify Dugher, Michael Mann, John the point that is raised in the new clause. Durkan, Mark Marsden, Mr Gordon Eagle, Ms Angela McCabe, Steve 4pm Eagle, Maria McCann, Mr Michael Edwards, Jonathan McCarthy, Kerry Debate interrupted (Programme Order, 16 October). Elliott, Julie McClymont, Gregg The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Question already Engel, Natascha McDonnell, John proposed from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83E), Esterson, Bill McFadden, rh Mr Pat That the clause be read a Second time. Evans, Chris McGovern, Alison The House divided: Ayes 220, Noes 292. Farrelly, Paul McGovern, Jim Field, rh Mr Frank McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Division No. 78] [4 pm Fitzpatrick, Jim McKechin, Ann Flello, Robert McKenzie, Mr Iain AYES Flint, rh Caroline McKinnell, Catherine Abbott, Ms Diane Anderson, Mr David Fovargue, Yvonne Meacher, rh Mr Michael Abrahams, Debbie Austin, Ian Francis, Dr Hywel Mearns, Ian Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Bailey, Mr Adrian Gapes, Mike Michael, rh Alun Alexander, Heidi Bain, Mr William Gilmore, Sheila Miller, Andrew Ali, Rushanara Balls, rh Ed Glass, Pat Mitchell, Austin Allen, Mr Graham Banks, Gordon Glindon, Mrs Mary Moon, Mrs Madeleine 387 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 388 Bill Bill Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Smith, rh Mr Andrew Doyle-Price, Jackie Johnson, Joseph Morris, Grahame M. Smith, Angela Drax, Richard Jones, Andrew (Easington) Smith, Owen Duddridge, James Jones, rh Mr David Mudie, Mr George Spellar, rh Mr John Duncan, rh Mr Alan Jones, Mr Marcus Munn, Meg Stringer, Graham Ellis, Michael Kawczynski, Daniel Murphy, rh Mr Jim Stuart, Ms Gisela Ellison, Jane Kelly, Chris Murray, Ian Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Nandy, Lisa Tami, Mark Eustice, George Kirby, Simon Nash, Pamela Thomas, Mr Gareth Evans, Graham Knight, rh Mr Greg Onwurah, Chi Thornberry, Emily Evans, Jonathan Laing, Mrs Eleanor Osborne, Sandra Timms, rh Stephen Evennett, Mr David Lamb, Norman Owen, Albert Trickett, Jon Fabricant, Michael Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Pearce, Teresa Turner, Karl Farron, Tim Laws, rh Mr David Perkins, Toby Twigg, Derek , Lynne Leadsom, Andrea Phillipson, Bridget Umunna, Mr Chuka Fox,rhDrLiam Lee, Jessica Pound, Stephen Vaz, Valerie Francois, rh Mr Mark Lee, Dr Phillip Qureshi, Yasmin Walley, Joan Freer, Mike Lefroy, Jeremy Reed, Mr Jamie Watson, Mr Tom Fuller, Richard Leigh, Mr Edward Reeves, Rachel Watts, Mr Dave Gale, Sir Roger Leslie, Charlotte Reynolds, Emma Weatherley, Mike Garnier, Sir Edward Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Riordan, Mrs Linda Weir, Mr Mike Garnier, Mark Lilley, rh Mr Peter Robertson, Angus Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Gauke, Mr David Lloyd, Stephen Roy, Mr Frank Whitehead, Dr Alan George, Andrew Lopresti, Jack Roy, Lindsay Williams, Hywel Gibb, Mr Nick Lord, Jonathan Ruane, Chris Williamson, Chris Gilbert, Stephen Loughton, Tim Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Wilson, Phil Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Luff, Peter Seabeck, Alison Winnick, Mr David Glen, John Lumley, Karen Shannon, Jim Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Goodwill, Mr Robert Macleod, Mary Sharma, Mr Virendra Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Gove, rh Michael Main, Mrs Anne Sheerman, Mr Barry Wright, David Graham, Richard Maude, rh Mr Francis Sheridan, Jim Wright, Mr Iain Grant, Mrs Helen Maynard, Paul Shuker, Gavin Tellers for the Ayes: Gray, Mr James McCartney, Jason Skinner, Mr Dennis Susan Elan Jones and Grayling, rh Chris McCartney, Karl Slaughter, Mr Andy Mr David Hamilton Green, rh Damian McCrea, Dr William Greening, rh Justine McIntosh, Miss Anne Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McPartland, Stephen NOES Griffiths, Andrew McVey, Esther Adams, Nigel Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Gummer, Ben Menzies, Mark Afriyie, Adam Buckland, Mr Robert Gyimah, Mr Sam Mercer, Patrick Aldous, Peter Burley, Mr Aidan Halfon, Robert Metcalfe, Stephen Amess, Mr David Burns, Conor Hames, Duncan Miller, rh Maria Andrew, Stuart Burns, rh Mr Simon Hammond, rh Mr Philip Mills, Nigel Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Burrowes, Mr David Hancock, Matthew Milton, Anne Bacon, Mr Richard Burstow, rh Paul Hands, Greg Moore, rh Michael Baker, Norman Burt, Alistair Harper, Mr Mark Mordaunt, Penny Baker, Steve Burt, Lorely Harris, Rebecca Morgan, Nicky Baldry, Sir Tony Byles, Dan Hart, Simon Morris, Anne Marie Baldwin, Harriett Cable, rh Vince Harvey, Sir Nick Morris, James Barclay, Stephen Cairns, Alun Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mosley, Stephen Barker, rh Gregory Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Heath, Mr David Mowat, David Baron, Mr John Carmichael, Neil Hemming, John Mulholland, Greg Barwell, Gavin Carswell, Mr Douglas Henderson, Gordon Mundell, rh David Bebb, Guto Cash, Mr William Hendry, Charles Munt, Tessa Beith, rh Sir Alan Chishti, Rehman Herbert, rh Nick Murray, Sheryll Bellingham, Mr Henry Chope, Mr Christopher Hinds, Damian Murrison, Dr Andrew Beresford, Sir Paul Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hoban, Mr Mark Neill, Robert Bingham, Andrew Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hollingbery, George Newmark, Mr Brooks Binley, Mr Brian Collins, Damian Hollobone, Mr Philip Newton, Sarah Birtwistle, Gordon Colvile, Oliver Holloway, Mr Adam Norman, Jesse Blackman, Bob Crabb, Stephen Horwood, Martin Nuttall, Mr David Blackwood, Nicola Crockart, Mike Howarth, Sir Gerald O’Brien, Mr Stephen Blunt, Mr Crispin Crouch, Tracey Howell, John Offord, Dr Matthew Boles, Nick Davies, David T. C. Hughes, rh Simon Ollerenshaw, Eric Bone, Mr Peter (Monmouth) Huhne, rh Chris Opperman, Guy Bradley, Karen Davies, Glyn Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Ottaway, Richard Brake, rh Tom Davies, Philip Huppert, Dr Julian Paice, rh Sir James Bray, Angie Davis, rh Mr David Hurd, Mr Nick Paisley, Ian Brazier, Mr Julian de Bois, Nick Jackson, Mr Stewart Parish, Neil Bridgen, Andrew Djanogly, Mr Jonathan James, Margot Patel, Priti Brine, Steve Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Javid, Sajid Paterson, rh Mr Owen Brokenshire, James Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Jenkin, Mr Bernard Pawsey, Mark Bruce, Fiona Dorries, Nadine Johnson, Gareth Penning, Mike 389 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 390 Bill Bill Penrose, John Swales, Ian (a) is to be made by statutory instrument, and Percy, Andrew Swayne, rh Mr Desmond (b) is not to be made unless a draft of the instrument has Perry, Claire Swinson, Jo been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, Phillips, Stephen Tapsell, rh Sir Peter each House of Parliament.’.—(Matthew Hancock.) Pickles, rh Mr Eric Teather, Sarah Pincher, Christopher Timpson, Mr Edward Clause 3 Poulter, Dr Daniel Tomlinson, Justin Prisk, Mr Mark Tredinnick, David ALTERATION OF THE OBJECTS OF THE UK GREEN Raab, Mr Dominic Turner, Mr Andrew INVESTMENT BANK Randall, rh Mr John Uppal, Paul Reckless, Mark Amendment made: 3, page 2, line 37, leave out ‘in the Vaizey, Mr Edward United Kingdom’ and insert Reid, Mr Alan Vara, Mr Shailesh Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Vickers, Martin ‘(whether in the United Kingdom or elsewhere)’.—(Matthew Robertson, Mr Laurence Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Hancock.) Rogerson, Dan Walker, Mr Charles Rosindell, Andrew Walker, Mr Robin Clause 4 Rudd, Amber Walter, Mr Robert Ruffley, Mr David Ward, Mr David THE UK GREEN INVESTMENT BANK: FINANCIAL Russell, Sir Bob Watkinson, Angela ASSISTANCE Rutley, David Amendment proposed: 76, page 3, line 24, at end Sanders, Mr Adrian Webb, Steve Sandys, Laura Wharton, James add— Scott, Mr Lee Wheeler, Heather ‘(7) Subject to the approval by the European Commission of Selous, Andrew White, Chris the State aid notification concerning the establishment of the UK Shelbrooke, Alec Whittaker, Craig Green Investment Bank, the Secretary of State shall provide the Shepherd, Mr Richard Whittingdale, Mr John European Commission with State aid notification concerning the Skidmore, Chris Wiggin, Bill intention to allow the Bank to borrow, including borrowing from Smith, Miss Chloe Willetts, rh Mr David the capital markets. Smith, Henry Williams, Mr Mark (8) The duty in subsection (7) must be fulfilled no later than Smith, Julian Williams, Roger 31 December 2013. Smith, Sir Robert Williams, Stephen (9) It is the duty of HM Treasury and the Secretary of State to Soames, rh Nicholas Williamson, Gavin either— Soubry, Anna Willott, Jenny (a) permit the UK Green Investment Bank to begin Spencer, Mr Mark Wilson, Mr Rob borrowing from the capital markets by April 2015, or Stephenson, Andrew Wilson, Sammy (b) to present to Parliament a report within one month of Stevenson, John Wollaston, Dr Sarah the passage of this Act giving a clear, certain, alternative Stewart, Bob Wright, Simon date for the UK Green Investment Bank to begin Streeter, Mr Gary Young, rh Sir George borrowing, based on Office for Budget Responsibility Stride, Mel forecasts for the public finances and advice from the Stuart, Mr Graham Tellers for the Noes: Green Investment Bank on its need for borrowing Stunell, rh Andrew Mark Hunter and powers, Sturdy, Julian Mr Robert Syms both subject to the European Commission approving the State aid notification concerning borrowing.’.—(Mr Iain Wright.) Question accordingly negatived. Question put, That the amendment be made. The House divided: Ayes 222, Noes 285. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Inowhave Division No. 79] [4.14 pm to announce the result of the deferred Division on the question relating to the order on the abolition of the AYES Commission for Rural Communities. The Ayes were Abbott, Ms Diane Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben 301 and the Noes were 211, so the Ayes have it. I also Abrahams, Debbie Brennan, Kevin have to announce the result of the deferred Division on Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Brown, Lyn the question relating to sulphur contents and marine Alexander, Heidi Brown, rh Mr Nicholas fuels. The Ayes were 479 and the Noes were 33, so the Ali, Rushanara Brown, Mr Russell Ayes have it. Allen, Mr Graham Bryant, Chris [The Division list is published at the end of today’s Anderson, Mr David Burden, Richard debates.] Austin, Ian Burnham, rh Andy Bailey, Mr Adrian Byrne, rh Mr Liam The Deputy Speaker then put forthwith the Questions Bain, Mr William Campbell, Mr Alan necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded Balls, rh Ed Campbell, Mr Ronnie at that time (Standing Order No. 83E). Banks, Gordon Clark, Katy Barron, rh Mr Kevin Clarke, rh Mr Tom Beckett, rh Margaret Coaker, Vernon Clause 2 Begg, Dame Anne Coffey, Ann Benn, rh Hilary Connarty, Michael DESIGNATION OF THE UK GREEN INVESTMENT BANK Benton, Mr Joe Cooper, Rosie Amendments made: 1, page 2, line 8, leave out ‘in the Berger, Luciana Cooper, rh Yvette United Kingdom’ and insert Betts, Mr Clive Corbyn, Jeremy Blackman-Woods, Roberta Crausby, Mr David ‘(whether in the United Kingdom or elsewhere)’. Blenkinsop, Tom Creagh, Mary Amendment 2, page 2, line 18, leave out from ‘section’ Blomfield, Paul Creasy, Stella to end of line 19 and insert ‘— Blunkett, rh Mr David Cruddas, Jon 391 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 392 Bill Bill Cryer, John Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Skinner, Mr Dennis Walley, Joan Cunningham, Alex Keeley, Barbara Slaughter, Mr Andy Watson, Mr Tom Cunningham, Mr Jim Kendall, Liz Smith, rh Mr Andrew Watts, Mr Dave Dakin, Nic Khan, rh Sadiq Smith, Angela Weir, Mr Mike Danczuk, Simon Lavery, Ian Smith, Owen Whiteford, Dr Eilidh David, Wayne Lazarowicz, Mark Spellar, rh Mr John Whitehead, Dr Alan Davidson, Mr Ian Leslie, Chris Stringer, Graham Williams, Hywel Davies, Geraint Lewis, Mr Ivan Stuart, Ms Gisela Williamson, Chris De Piero, Gloria Lloyd, Tony Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Wilson, Phil Denham, rh Mr John Long, Naomi Tami, Mark Winnick, Mr David Dobbin, Jim Lucas, Caroline Thomas, Mr Gareth Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Dobson, rh Frank Lucas, Ian Thornberry, Emily Wishart, Pete Docherty, Thomas MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Timms, rh Stephen Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Donohoe, Mr Brian H. MacShane, rh Mr Denis Trickett, Jon Wright, David Doran, Mr Frank Mactaggart, Fiona Turner, Karl Wright, Mr Iain Dowd, Jim Mahmood, Mr Khalid Twigg, Derek Tellers for the Ayes: Doyle, Gemma Mahmood, Shabana Umunna, Mr Chuka Susan Elan Jones and Dromey, Jack Malhotra, Seema Vaz, Valerie Mr David Hamilton Dugher, Michael Mann, John Durkan, Mark Marsden, Mr Gordon Eagle, Ms Angela McCabe, Steve NOES Eagle, Maria McCann, Mr Michael Afriyie, Adam Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Edwards, Jonathan McCarthy, Kerry Aldous, Peter Coffey, Dr Thérèse Elliott, Julie McClymont, Gregg Amess, Mr David Collins, Damian Engel, Natascha McDonnell, John Andrew, Stuart Colvile, Oliver Esterson, Bill McFadden, rh Mr Pat Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Crabb, Stephen Evans, Chris McGovern, Alison Bacon, Mr Richard Crockart, Mike Farrelly, Paul McGovern, Jim Baker, Norman Crouch, Tracey Field, rh Mr Frank McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Baker, Steve Davies, David T. C. Fitzpatrick, Jim McKechin, Ann Baldry, Sir Tony (Monmouth) Flello, Robert McKenzie, Mr Iain Baldwin, Harriett Davies, Glyn Flint, rh Caroline McKinnell, Catherine Barclay, Stephen Davies, Philip Fovargue, Yvonne Meacher, rh Mr Michael Baron, Mr John Davis, rh Mr David Francis, Dr Hywel Mearns, Ian Barwell, Gavin de Bois, Nick Gapes, Mike Michael, rh Alun Bebb, Guto Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Gilmore, Sheila Miller, Andrew Beith, rh Sir Alan Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Glass, Pat Mitchell, Austin Bellingham, Mr Henry Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Glindon, Mrs Mary Moon, Mrs Madeleine Beresford, Sir Paul Dorries, Nadine Godsiff, Mr Roger Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Bingham, Andrew Doyle-Price, Jackie Goldsmith, Zac Morris, Grahame M. Binley, Mr Brian Drax, Richard Goodman, Helen (Easington) Birtwistle, Gordon Duddridge, James Greatrex, Tom Mudie, Mr George Blackman, Bob Duncan, rh Mr Alan Green, Kate Munn, Meg Blackwood, Nicola Ellis, Michael Griffith, Nia Murphy, rh Mr Jim Blunt, Mr Crispin Ellison, Jane Hain, rh Mr Peter Murray, Ian Boles, Nick Ellwood, Mr Tobias Hamilton, Fabian Nandy, Lisa Bone, Mr Peter Eustice, George Harris, Mr Tom Nash, Pamela Brake, rh Tom Evans, Graham Havard, Mr Dai Onwurah, Chi Bray, Angie Evans, Jonathan Healey, rh John Osborne, Sandra Brazier, Mr Julian Evennett, Mr David Hendrick, Mark Owen, Albert Bridgen, Andrew Fabricant, Michael Hepburn, Mr Stephen Pearce, Teresa Brine, Steve Featherstone, Lynne Hermon, Lady Perkins, Toby Brokenshire, James Fox,rhDrLiam Heyes, David Phillipson, Bridget Brooke, Annette Francois, rh Mr Mark Hillier, Meg Pound, Stephen Bruce, Fiona Freer, Mike Hilling, Julie Qureshi, Yasmin Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Fuller, Richard Hodge, rh Margaret Reed, Mr Jamie Buckland, Mr Robert Gale, Sir Roger Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Reeves, Rachel Burley, Mr Aidan Garnier, Sir Edward Hoey, Kate Reynolds, Emma Burns, Conor Gauke, Mr David Hopkins, Kelvin Riordan, Mrs Linda Burns, rh Mr Simon George, Andrew Hosie, Stewart Ritchie, Ms Margaret Burrowes, Mr David Gibb, Mr Nick Hunt, Tristram Robertson, Angus Burstow, rh Paul Gilbert, Stephen Irranca-Davies, Huw Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Burt, Alistair Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Jackson, Glenda Roy, Mr Frank Burt, Lorely Glen, John James, Mrs Siân C. Roy, Lindsay Byles, Dan Goodwill, Mr Robert Jamieson, Cathy Ruane, Chris Cable, rh Vince Gove, rh Michael Jarvis, Dan Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Cairns, Alun Graham, Richard Johnson, rh Alan Seabeck, Alison Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Grant, Mrs Helen Johnson, Diana Shannon, Jim Carmichael, Neil Gray, Mr James Jones, Graham Sharma, Mr Virendra Cash, Mr William Grayling, rh Chris Jones, Helen Sheerman, Mr Barry Chishti, Rehman Green, rh Damian Jones, Mr Kevan Sheridan, Jim Chope, Mr Christopher Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Joyce, Eric Shuker, Gavin Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Griffiths, Andrew 393 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 394 Bill Bill Gummer, Ben Metcalfe, Stephen Stunell, rh Andrew Weatherley, Mike Halfon, Robert Miller, rh Maria Sturdy, Julian Webb, Steve Hames, Duncan Mills, Nigel Swales, Ian Wharton, James Hammond, rh Mr Philip Milton, Anne Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Wheeler, Heather Hancock, Matthew Moore, rh Michael Swinson, Jo White, Chris Hands, Greg Mordaunt, Penny Syms, Mr Robert Whittingdale, Mr John Harper, Mr Mark Morgan, Nicky Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Wiggin, Bill Harris, Rebecca Morris, Anne Marie Teather, Sarah Willetts, rh Mr David Hart, Simon Morris, James Timpson, Mr Edward Williams, Mr Mark Harvey, Sir Nick Mosley, Stephen Tomlinson, Justin Williams, Roger Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mowat, David Tredinnick, David Williams, Stephen Heath, Mr David Mulholland, Greg Turner, Mr Andrew Williamson, Gavin Hemming, John Mundell, rh David Uppal, Paul Willott, Jenny Henderson, Gordon Munt, Tessa Vaizey, Mr Edward Wilson, Mr Rob Hendry, Charles Murray, Sheryll Vara, Mr Shailesh Wilson, Sammy Herbert, rh Nick Murrison, Dr Andrew Vickers, Martin Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hinds, Damian Neill, Robert Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Wright, Simon Hoban, Mr Mark Newmark, Mr Brooks Walker, Mr Charles Young, rh Sir George Hollingbery, George Newton, Sarah Walker, Mr Robin Hollobone, Mr Philip Norman, Jesse Walter, Mr Robert Tellers for the Noes: Holloway, Mr Adam Nuttall, Mr David Ward, Mr David Mark Hunter and Horwood, Martin O’Brien, Mr Stephen Watkinson, Angela Karen Bradley Howarth, Sir Gerald Offord, Dr Matthew Howell, John Ollerenshaw, Eric Question accordingly negatived. Hughes, rh Simon Opperman, Guy Huhne, rh Chris Ottaway, Richard Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Paice, rh Sir James Clause 5 Huppert, Dr Julian Paisley, Ian Hurd, Mr Nick Parish, Neil THE UK GREEN INVESTMENT BANK: ACCOUNTS AND Jackson, Mr Stewart Patel, Priti REPORTS James, Margot Paterson, rh Mr Owen Amendments made: 4, page 3, line 27, leave out from Javid, Sajid Pawsey, Mark ‘treated’ to ‘as’ in line 28. Jenkin, Mr Bernard Penning, Mike Johnson, Gareth Penrose, John Amendment 5, page 3, line 29, leave out ‘that Act’ Johnson, Joseph Percy, Andrew and insert Jones, Andrew Perry, Claire ‘the Companies Act 2006 for the purposes of the application to it Jones, rh Mr David Phillips, Stephen of— Jones, Mr Marcus Pickles, rh Mr Eric (a) Chapters 4 and 4A of Part 10 of that Act, and Kawczynski, Daniel Pincher, Christopher (b) Parts 15 and 16 of that Act (in respect of a financial Kelly, Chris Poulter, Dr Daniel year).’.—(Jo Swinson.) Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Prisk, Mr Mark Kirby, Simon Raab, Mr Dominic Knight, rh Mr Greg Randall, rh Mr John Clause 61 Laing, Mrs Eleanor Reckless, Mark Lamb, Norman Reid, Mr Alan MEMBERS’ APPROVAL OF DIRECTORS’ REMUNERATION Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Robathan, rh Mr Andrew POLICY Laws, rh Mr David Robertson, Mr Laurence Leadsom, Andrea Rogerson, Dan Mr Iain Wright: I beg to move amendment 93, page 51, Lee, Jessica Rosindell, Andrew line 23, at end insert— Lee, Dr Phillip Rudd, Amber ‘(1A) A representative of the company’s employees must be Lefroy, Jeremy Ruffley, Mr David consulted in the preparation of any such revision.’. Leigh, Mr Edward Russell, Sir Bob Leslie, Charlotte Rutley, David Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): With this it Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Sanders, Mr Adrian will be convenient to discuss the following: Lilley, rh Mr Peter Sandys, Laura Amendment 95, page 52, line 5, leave out ‘ordinary’ Lloyd, Stephen Scott, Mr Lee and insert ‘special’. Lopresti, Jack Selous, Andrew Lord, Jonathan Shelbrooke, Alec Government amendment 25. Loughton, Tim Shepherd, Mr Richard Amendment 86, page 52, line 11, leave out subsection (b) Luff, Peter Skidmore, Chris and insert ‘(b) and annually thereafter.’. Lumley, Karen Smith, Miss Chloe Amendment 96, page 52, line 17, leave out ‘ordinary’ Macleod, Mary Smith, Henry and insert ‘special’. Main, Mrs Anne Smith, Julian Government amendments 26 to 30. Maynard, Paul Smith, Sir Robert McCartney, Jason Soames, rh Nicholas New clause 27—Information about payments to McCartney, Karl Spencer, Mr Mark recruitment and remuneration consultants in respect of McCrea, Dr William Stephenson, Andrew directors’ remuneration— McIntosh, Miss Anne Stevenson, John ‘After section 413 of the Companies Act 2006 (Information McPartland, Stephen Stewart, Bob about directors’ benefits: advances, credit and guarantees) McVey, Esther Streeter, Mr Gary insert— Menzies, Mark Stride, Mel “413A Information about payments to recruitment and Mercer, Patrick Stuart, Mr Graham remuneration consultants 395 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 396 Bill Bill The Secretary of State may make provision by regulations employees can play a part. As he also said, in the UK requiring information to be given in notes to a company’s annual corporate governance system, accounts about payments made in the relevant accounting period in respect of recruitment and remuneration advice relating to “we do not distinguish in law between types of director. They all directors, including information specifying any fees that have have the same duties.”––[Official Report, Enterprise and Regulatory been paid in proportion to the remuneration agreed for a Reform Public Bill Committee, 17 July 2012; c. 691.] director.”.’. That is an accurate reflection of the current situation, and as I said, we have reflected on the then Minister’s Mr Wright: Amendment 93 is in my name and those comments, which is why we have tabled amendment 93. of my hon. Friends. This important part of the Bill We have also been seduced—if that is not too strong deals with directors’pay.We rightly spent time in Committee a word—by the writing skills, positively Churchillian or dealing with this, and I do not want unduly to inconvenience Disraelian, of the new Minister, the Under-Secretary of the House by repeating the same points, but at the heart State for Skills, the hon. Member for West Suffolk of the debate is a disconnect between executive pay and (Matthew Hancock). In an article written for The Sunday average earnings, and between executive remuneration Times in November 2011, he wrote: and the performance of the companies they lead. “Finally, corporate remuneration committees should be made As I mentioned in Committee, in 1980, the median more independent. For all the controversy the suggestion has pay of the highest-paid directors in FTSE 100 companies attracted, why shouldn’t that include leaving a place on the was £63,000, and median wages were £5,400. By 2010, committee for an employee representative, in an advisory capacity, the median pay of FTSE 100 directors was £2.99 million, if only to offer a different perspective?” while median wages had risen to £25,900. The ratio of We fully agree with his sentiment. I have been seduced directors’ and employees’ median pay had risen from by those rhetorical flourishes from his Pitt-esque fountain 11:1 to 116:1. That trend is not confined to the UK, but pen, so we look forward to his supporting us through has been seen throughout the developed world, most the Division Lobby. notably in the US, where, by 2008, executive pay was 200 times the median household income. Despite the Amendments 95 and 96 would effectively require a difficult economic times and financial misery faced by 75% shareholder vote. We mentioned this issue in millions, average compensation for an FTSE 100 chief Committee, and I reiterate the powerful arguments put executive rose by 12% in 2011, while average wages rose forward by Dominic Rossi, the chief investment officer by only 1.4%. of equities for Fidelity Worldwide Investment, who has argued that directors’ pay is over-generous and over- In that environment of growing pay, there is no complex. meaningful correlation between high pay and high corporate performance. Empirical evidence from research carried Richard Fuller: The hon. Gentleman is arguing for out in 2009 concluded that companies that pay their things he would like to see, but as he is well aware, it is chief executive officer in the top 10% of remuneration already within the purview of corporations to put an earn negative results of -13% in terms of both profits employee on their boards, and shareholder votes can and share price in the next five years. already be held on compensation and can influence that Opposition Members support some of the Government’s compensation even if they fall short of the 50% hurdle. reforms—in the interests of cross-party agreement, I What compels him to want to make it a legal requirement, should say that they build on work done by the previous rather than to use the market to make these decisions Labour Government. However, as we said in Committee, itself? the Government could go further and be slightly bolder. That is the basis of amendment 93, which would ensure Mr Wright: It is because, as I tried to explain in my that opening remarks, over the past 30 years we have seen “a representative of the company’s employees must be consulted market failure and a huge disconnect in the level of in the preparation of any such revision” remuneration paid to top executives, but that has not to a director’s remuneration package. We anticipate this ensured commensurate performance among the companies ensuring that an employee representative could sit on a they lead, which is what we need. I think that the firm’s remuneration committee in an advisory capacity. Government are onside on this. The shareholder spring and activism that we have seen, including at Trinity 4.30 pm Mirror, has largely been the result of initiatives put in Amendment 93 is a development of the argument place by the previous Labour Government on annual that we pursued in Committee in which we pressed for a advisory votes on directors’ pay and so on. I know that representative from the work force to be an active and the hon. Gentleman is very familiar with these issues full member of the company’s remuneration committee. and will support us in ensuring that shareholders—the In response to our amendments in Committee, the then people who own these companies—have a proper say. Minister, the hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), stated that the Government did not believe in Richard Fuller: I appreciate the shadow Minister’s mandating that all companies must have employees on point, but unfortunately, as is often the case, the Opposition boards. Crucially for his argument—we reflected on are like the ambulance that turns up two days too late this over the summer—he then said that the UK system and to the wrong address. The market is already responding of corporate governance involved a unitary board, whereas to these issues, and measures are being taken to change the likes of Germany and Sweden routinely had worker how compensation is made, as he said. The Opposition representation on boards. As he pointed out, however, always rush to legislate restrictive control and put a that can happen there in a way that it cannot happen hand down on aspiration, when the market itself will here, because they have a two-tier system of corporate solve, and is solving, these problems. I fully accept that governance, with an additional advisory board on which there is an issue about employee representation in companies 397 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 398 Bill Bill and about the historical lack of alignment between the fear is that they may be voting on something vaguer and more compensation on boards, but he is going the wrong way bland.”––[Official Report, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Public about resolving it. Bill Committee, 21 June 2012; c. 137, Q294.] Again, I cannot see how our proposal would be onerous, Mr Wright: The purpose of the amendments, which and I think Ministers should think again. have buy-in from Mr Rossi, Fidelity and elsewhere, is The final amendment in this group is new clause 27, not to seek the death of aspiration, but to encourage, the purpose of which is to improve transparency in the incentivise and try to ensure that companies achieve as disclosure of information relating to remuneration much consensus as possible on directors’ pay policy—that consultants and the manner in which they are paid by was also the position of the Secretary of State earlier in companies. Evidence suggests that remuneration consultants the year—ensuring that companies start early in the have played a key part in hiking up directors’ pay. Work process and avoid the use of what is a somewhat blunt undertaken by Professor Martin Conyon found a direct and brittle tool, whereby the issue is discussed only at correlation between higher-than-average directors’ the annual general meeting or what-have-you, which remuneration and the use of remuneration consultants. can cause tension. Getting in early and talking to Further studies have shown that, on average, pay for shareholders means that the owners and managers of a chief executive officers is 26% higher in companies that business can reach some sort of consensus. That is the use remuneration consultants. As I mentioned in purpose that amendments 95 and 96 seek to achieve. I Committee, across the Atlantic, the Congress inquiry quoted Mr Rossi in Committee, and I will do so again: led by chairman Henry Waxman concluded that “Companies have nothing to fear if what they propose is fair remuneration consultants to Fortune 250 companies and reasonable and clearly aligned to what is good for long-term were paid almost 11 times as much for providing other shareholders.” services to those companies. The hon. Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller) is a strong and experienced Member of this House and a Richard Fuller: The shadow Minister is making some good champion of businesses. I disagree with what he good points. Does he believe that the Government says about regulation and employment legislation, but should provide guidelines to remuneration committees he will recognise that getting good consensus on directors’ on how they should set directors’ pay, and on how they pay and ensuring that shareholders have the tools at should ensure that the correlation with average earnings their disposal to hold managers to account is in all our and with shareholder value growth is maintained? interests. Mr Wright: That is a fair point. There are already Amendment 86 would have the effect of creating an guidelines in place, including discretionary guidance annual binding vote on pay policy, an issue that, again, from the industry. We also have the combined code on was much deliberated in Committee. I still firmly believe corporate governance, which provides a degree of guidance. that an annual vote is hardly disproportionately onerous We need to determine whether the issue is sufficiently or somehow unduly bureaucratic. Shareholders are used serious that it requires legislation to provide firm guidance. to, and expect, annual corporate reporting on matters I shall be interested to hear the Minister’s view on that, such as the annual accounts—whether they are a true given that there is agreement across the House on the and fair view—and the reappointment of auditors. I disconnect between pay and performance, and the link— reiterate the point that I mentioned in Committee and which acts almost as a catalyst—between remuneration throughout the passage of the Bill: I fail to see how such consultants. a proposal can be seen as onerous. In Committee I had a well-thumbed Financial Times editorial from June Speaking as a chartered accountant who used to 2012, which said that work for a “big four” accounting firm, I see a close correlation between these problems and the crisis in the “the business secretary has missed a trick in not going for annual pay votes…His worthy hope is that this might encourage more auditing profession a decade ago. That led to the disclosure medium-term thinking about pay. But an obvious worry is that of fees and to greater transparency on the audit services such votes may degenerate into another exercise in box-ticking, and non-audit services provided by the accounting firms. with shareholders voting on boilerplate policies rather than specific The perception was that in corporate scandals involving deals.” firms such as Enron, the thoroughness and accuracy of It went on: the auditors’ opinion was called into question when “Executives will restrain their demands only when they perceive audit firms secured additional, often more lucrative, a real risk in flouting social norms on pay. Fund managers, who work away from the statutory audit. naturally shy from conflict with companies, still need to be New clause 27 would therefore increase disclosure of encouraged to challenge bosses more—especially on this sensitive information relating to payments to remuneration topic. Annual votes would at least put them firmly on the spot. consultants, ensuring that the Secretary of State should Mr Cable’s triennial polls, however well-meaning and thoughtful, may not.” make a provision by regulation of notes to a company’s accounts about payments made to the consultants, including That point was echoed by the head of the High Pay information specifying fees that have been paid as a Commission, Deborah Hargreaves, who stated in evidence proportion of the total remuneration package of a to the Committee: director. My concern is that, if a contract is so designed, “If you vote every three years on pay policy, it is important a consultant has an inherent desire to inflate the package that that policy is detailed enough for you to have an effect. The to secure a larger fee. If that is the case, shareholders danger is that it could turn into a box-ticking exercise, where you should be made fully aware of it via a disclosure in the vote on general boilerplate policy recommendations, rather than nitty-gritty details and figures. I felt that an annual vote would annual accounts. As I have said, we applaud the include more figures and more detail, and give shareholders more Government’s general direction of travel, but we believe power to make informed decisions about what is going on in that they could go further, and I will be interested to relation to pay at the company. If it happened every three years, hear what the Minister has to say about this. 399 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 400 Bill Bill Jo Swinson: Directors’ pay has been very much in the Amendment 86 proposes that the binding vote on news recently, for reasons that the hon. Member for remuneration policy occurs annually, even if a company’s Hartlepool (Mr Wright) has outlined. Between 1998 policy has not changed. The hon. Member for Hartlepool and 2000, the average total remuneration of FTSE 100 set out various objections to the provisions, saying that chief executive officers increased fourfold, which was they were too onerous and inappropriate. We went for a much faster than the increase in prices or in average three-year pay policy and, to be fair, this had nothing to remuneration levels across other employers. It was also do with being onerous; it was about what investors said much faster than the increase in the FTSE 100 itself. would work. The attraction of a three-year policy is There was clearly an issue to be addressed, and the that it encourages more long-term thinking and discourages Government opened up the debate on directors’ pay a the kind of unnecessary annual tinkering that invariably year ago. We drew attention to the fact that top pay in leads to pay going up and getting ever more complex. large public companies had grown rapidly without any That approach is backed by major investors and investor clear connection to performance, and we asked what bodies such as the Association of British Insurers. Of could be done about it. We encouraged business and course, there is nothing to stop companies from having investors to face up to this difficult issue. an annual vote on pay policy—they have the flexibility to do so—and there is the safety net of a trigger In January, the Prime Minister and the Secretary of mechanism to protect shareholders. If they are unhappy State committed to taking action, and in June we introduced with how the pay policy is working out and they reject bold measures into this Bill. I know that the Bill Committee the annual advisory vote, a binding vote on policy at the enjoyed a thorough and engaging debate on this issue next annual general meeting will be triggered. before the summer break, and I am pleased that our reforms have received such wide support inside and The hon. Member for Hartlepool asked whether the outside Parliament. Investors agree that this comprehensive policy will be too vague and too high-level, but the package of reforms will help them to tackle excessive regulations that inform what happens will clearly and pay and to restore a clearer link between pay and succinctly set out to which types of payments directors long-term performance. are entitled, how the pay links to company strategy, how performance will be assessed and how it will translate We have tabled six minor and technical amendments into awards under different scenarios. Parliament will to the clauses on directors’ remuneration, which I will have a chance separately to debate the regulations at a outline before I speak briefly in response to the other later stage. If there were any outstanding concerns, they amendments that have been tabled. The technical could be put forward then. amendments will tighten up the legislation and ensure that it is as robust and clear as possible. Business and Amendments 95 and 96 would make the vote on investors support those amendments. Amendments 25 remuneration a special resolution, requiring 75% and 30 correct a technical drafting oversight. They shareholder support to pass. Investors have made it clarify that, for the purpose of identifying when companies very clear that they want an ordinary resolution, subject will be affected by the new provisions, the relevant to a simple majority. It is important to note that we have financial year is the one beginning on or after the day seen this year that it is absolutely possible for the on which the provisions come into force. That is to majority of shareholders to vote against pay proposals. ensure that companies whose year starts on 1 October So far this year, seven companies have lost their pay are subject to the provisions. votes—real evidence that the process can work. Amendments 26 and 29 make it clear that the definition Amendment 93 would require companies to consult of “quoted company” shall be the same as that which an employee representative whenever they wish to propose already appears in the Companies Act 2006. Amendment 27 a revised remuneration policy. I am sympathetic to the broadens the definition of what is meant by a remuneration intention of encouraging employees to be involved and payment so that remuneration paid to a director in his consulted. We share the view that it is helpful for or her capacity as an executive manager of the company remuneration committees to seek employees’ views on or its subsidiary is also captured. Importantly, that will pay—indeed, some already do—and we are encouraging mean that companies cannot circumvent the new restrictions them to report on how they have taken employee views by paying someone a small fee for being a director and a and employee pay into account. I do not believe that the large salary for being a manager. statutory approach set out in the amendment is the right way forward. It is worth reminding the House of Amendment 28 tightens up the provisions relating to the consultation that closed in September, as the payments made to former directors. This will ensure Government will shortly come forward with their response. that, where former directors are allowed to benefit from We proposed that companies should report on whether long-term pay schemes that mature after they have left, they sought the views of the work force in setting pay. the payments must be consistent with the company’s There are also existing tools such as information and remuneration policy—and if not, approved by a separate consultation arrangements, which can be used to make shareholder resolution. I am sure the House will agree sure that employees are engaged. The Government definitely that these minor and technical amendments will strengthen sympathise with the spirit of that intention, but we do and improve the legislation, and I hope all Members not think that the statutory approach provides the right will join me in supporting them. way forward. Opposition Members have suggested a number of Finally, the Opposition’s new clause 27 would allow areas where they would like the legislation to go further, the Secretary of State to make new regulations requiring but for the reasons that my predecessor, my hon. Friend companies to disclose how remuneration and recruitment the Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb) made consultants are paid. We do not accept the provision clear in Committee, the Government do not agree that because the Secretary of State already has the power to the amendments are necessary. I shall explain why. require that to be part of the director’s remuneration 401 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 402 Bill Bill report. We have already published draft regulations to Jarvis, Dan Phillipson, Bridget implement that, whereby companies will have to explain Johnson, rh Alan Pound, Stephen how consultants have been appointed, used and Johnson, Diana Qureshi, Yasmin remunerated. Jones, Graham Reed, Mr Jamie Jones, Helen Reeves, Rachel I hope that I have provided some assurance on these Jones, Mr Kevan Reynolds, Emma matters. I thank hon. Members for engaging in the Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Riordan, Mrs Linda issues, but maintain that the proposed amendments—other Keeley, Barbara Ritchie, Ms Margaret than the Government amendments—are unnecessary, Kendall, Liz Robertson, Angus so we shall not support them. Khan, rh Sadiq Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Question put, That the amendment be made: Lavery, Ian Roy, Mr Frank Lazarowicz, Mark Roy, Lindsay The House divided: Ayes 219, Noes 277. Leslie, Chris Ruane, Chris Division No. 80] [4.49 pm Lewis, Mr Ivan Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Lloyd, Tony Seabeck, Alison AYES Long, Naomi Shannon, Jim Lucas, Caroline Sharma, Mr Virendra Abrahams, Debbie Denham, rh Mr John Lucas, Ian Sheerman, Mr Barry Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Dobbin, Jim MacShane, rh Mr Sheridan, Jim Alexander, Heidi Dobson, rh Frank Denis Shuker, Gavin Ali, Rushanara Docherty, Thomas Mactaggart, Fiona Skinner, Mr Dennis Allen, Mr Graham Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey Mahmood, Mr Khalid Slaughter, Mr Andy Anderson, Mr David M. Mahmood, Shabana Smith, rh Mr Andrew Austin, Ian Donohoe, Mr Brian Malhotra, Seema Smith, Angela Bailey, Mr Adrian H. Mann, John Smith, Owen Bain, Mr William Doran, Mr Frank Marsden, Mr Gordon Spellar, rh Mr John Balls, rh Ed Dowd, Jim McCabe, Steve Stringer, Graham Banks, Gordon Doyle, Gemma McCann, Mr Michael Stuart, Ms Gisela Barron, rh Mr Kevin Dromey, Jack McCarthy, Kerry Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Beckett, rh Margaret Dugher, Michael McClymont, Gregg Tami, Mark Begg, Dame Anne Durkan, Mark McCrea, Dr William Thomas, Mr Gareth Benn, rh Hilary Eagle, Ms Angela McDonnell, John Thornberry, Emily Benton, Mr Joe Eagle, Maria McFadden, rh Mr Pat Timms, rh Stephen Berger, Luciana Edwards, Jonathan McGovern, Alison Trickett, Jon Betts, Mr Clive Elliott, Julie McGovern, Jim Turner, Karl Blackman-Woods, Roberta Engel, Natascha McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Twigg, Derek Blenkinsop, Tom Esterson, Bill McKechin, Ann Blomfield, Paul Evans, Chris McKenzie, Mr Iain Umunna, Mr Chuka Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Farrelly, Paul McKinnell, Catherine Vaz, Valerie Brennan, Kevin Field, rh Mr Frank Meacher, rh Mr Michael Walley, Joan Brown, Lyn Fitzpatrick, Jim Mearns, Ian Watson, Mr Tom Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Flello, Robert Michael, rh Alun Watts, Mr Dave Brown, Mr Russell Flint, rh Caroline Miller, Andrew Weir, Mr Mike Bryant, Chris Fovargue, Yvonne Mitchell, Austin Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Buck, Ms Karen Francis, Dr Hywel Moon, Mrs Madeleine Whitehead, Dr Alan Burden, Richard Gapes, Mike Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Williams, Hywel Burnham, rh Andy Gilmore, Sheila Morris, Grahame M. Williamson, Chris Byrne, rh Mr Liam Glass, Pat (Easington) Wilson, Phil Campbell, Mr Alan Glindon, Mrs Mary Mudie, Mr George Wilson, Sammy Campbell, Mr Ronnie Godsiff, Mr Roger Munn, Meg Winnick, Mr David Clark, Katy Goodman, Helen Murphy, rh Mr Jim Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Clarke, rh Mr Tom Greatrex, Tom Murray, Ian Wishart, Pete Coaker, Vernon Green, Kate Nandy, Lisa Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Coffey, Ann Griffith, Nia Nash, Pamela Wright, David Connarty, Michael Hamilton, Mr David Onwurah, Chi Wright, Mr Iain Cooper, Rosie Hamilton, Fabian Osborne, Sandra Cooper, rh Yvette Harris, Mr Tom Owen, Albert Tellers for the Ayes: Corbyn, Jeremy Havard, Mr Dai Pearce, Teresa Julie Hilling and Crausby, Mr David Healey, rh John Perkins, Toby Susan Elan Jones Creagh, Mary Hendrick, Mark Creasy, Stella Hepburn, Mr Stephen NOES Cruddas, Jon Hermon, Lady Afriyie, Adam Barclay, Stephen Cryer, John Heyes, David Baron, Mr John Cunningham, Alex Hodge, rh Margaret Aldous, Peter Cunningham, Mr Jim Hoey, Kate Amess, Mr David Bebb, Guto Dakin, Nic Hopkins, Kelvin Andrew, Stuart Beith, rh Sir Alan Danczuk, Simon Hosie, Stewart Arbuthnot, rh Mr Bellingham, Mr Henry Darling, rh Mr Alistair Hunt, Tristram James Beresford, Sir Paul David, Wayne Irranca-Davies, Huw Bacon, Mr Richard Bingham, Andrew Davidson, Mr Ian Jackson, Glenda Baker, Steve Binley, Mr Brian Davies, Geraint James, Mrs Siân C. Baldry, Sir Tony Birtwistle, Gordon De Piero, Gloria Jamieson, Cathy Baldwin, Harriett Blackman, Bob 403 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 404 Bill Bill Blackwood, Nicola Gove, rh Michael McIntosh, Miss Anne Shapps, rh Grant Blunt, Mr Crispin Graham, Richard McPartland, Stephen Sharma, Alok Boles, Nick Grant, Mrs Helen McVey, Esther Shelbrooke, Alec Bone, Mr Peter Gray, Mr James Menzies, Mark Shepherd, Mr Richard Brake, rh Tom Grayling, rh Chris Mercer, Patrick Skidmore, Chris Bray, Angie Griffiths, Andrew Metcalfe, Stephen Smith, Henry Brazier, Mr Julian Gummer, Ben Miller, rh Maria Smith, Julian Bridgen, Andrew Gyimah, Mr Sam Mills, Nigel Smith, Sir Robert Brine, Steve Hague, rh Mr William Milton, Anne Soames, rh Nicholas Brokenshire, James Halfon, Robert Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Spencer, Mr Mark Bruce, Fiona Hames, Duncan Moore, rh Michael Stephenson, Andrew Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Hancock, Matthew Mordaunt, Penny Stevenson, John Buckland, Mr Robert Hands, Greg Morgan, Nicky Stewart, Bob Burley, Mr Aidan Harper, Mr Mark Morris, Anne Marie Streeter, Mr Gary Burns, Conor Harris, Rebecca Morris, James Stride, Mel Burns, rh Mr Simon Hart, Simon Mosley, Stephen Stuart, Mr Graham Burrowes, Mr David Harvey, Sir Nick Mowat, David Stunell, rh Andrew Burstow, rh Paul Haselhurst, rh Sir Mulholland, Greg Sturdy, Julian Burt, Alistair Alan Mundell, rh David Swales, Ian Burt, Lorely Heath, Mr David Munt, Tessa Swayne, rh Mr Byles, Dan Hemming, John Murray, Sheryll Desmond Cairns, Alun Henderson, Gordon Murrison, Dr Andrew Swinson, Jo Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hendry, Charles Newmark, Mr Brooks Syms, Mr Robert Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Herbert, rh Nick Newton, Sarah Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Carmichael, Neil Hinds, Damian Norman, Jesse Teather, Sarah Carswell, Mr Douglas Hoban, Mr Mark Nuttall, Mr David Timpson, Mr Edward Cash, Mr William Hollingbery, George O’Brien, Mr Stephen Tomlinson, Justin Chishti, Rehman Hollobone, Mr Philip Offord, Dr Matthew Tredinnick, David Chope, Mr Christopher Holloway, Mr Adam Ollerenshaw, Eric Turner, Mr Andrew Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Horwood, Martin Opperman, Guy Uppal, Paul Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Howell, John Osborne, rh Mr Vaizey, Mr Edward Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy George Vara, Mr Shailesh Collins, Damian Huppert, Dr Julian Ottaway, Richard Vickers, Martin Colvile, Oliver Hurd, Mr Nick Paice, rh Sir James Villiers, rh Mrs Cox, Mr Geoffrey Jackson, Mr Stewart Parish, Neil Theresa Crabb, Stephen James, Margot Patel, Priti Walker, Mr Charles Crockart, Mike Javid, Sajid Pawsey, Mark Walker, Mr Robin Crouch, Tracey Jenkin, Mr Bernard Penning, Mike Walter, Mr Robert Davies, David T. C. Johnson, Gareth Penrose, John Ward, Mr David (Monmouth) Johnson, Joseph Percy, Andrew Davies, Glyn Jones, Andrew Perry, Claire Watkinson, Angela Davies, Philip Jones, rh Mr David Phillips, Stephen Webb, Steve de Bois, Nick Jones, Mr Marcus Pickles, rh Mr Eric Wharton, James Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Kawczynski, Daniel Pincher, Christopher Wheeler, Heather Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Kelly, Chris Prisk, Mr Mark White, Chris Doyle-Price, Jackie Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Raab, Mr Dominic Whittaker, Craig Drax, Richard Kirby, Simon Randall, rh Mr John Whittingdale, Mr John Duddridge, James Knight, rh Mr Greg Reckless, Mark Wiggin, Bill Duncan, rh Mr Alan Laing, Mrs Eleanor Redwood, rh Mr John Willetts, rh Mr David Ellis, Michael Lamb, Norman Reid, Mr Alan Williams, Mr Mark Ellison, Jane Lancaster, Mark Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Williams, Roger Ellwood, Mr Tobias Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Robertson, Mr Laurence Williams, Stephen Eustice, George Laws, rh Mr David Rogerson, Dan Williamson, Gavin Evans, Graham Leadsom, Andrea Rosindell, Andrew Willott, Jenny Evans, Jonathan Lee, Jessica Rudd, Amber Wilson, Mr Rob Evennett, Mr David Lee, Dr Phillip Ruffley, Mr David Wollaston, Dr Sarah Fabricant, Michael Lefroy, Jeremy Russell, Sir Bob Wright, Simon Farron, Tim Leigh, Mr Edward Rutley, David Young, rh Sir George Featherstone, Lynne Leslie, Charlotte Sanders, Mr Adrian Fox,rhDrLiam Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Sandys, Laura Tellers for the Noes: Francois, rh Mr Mark Lloyd, Stephen Scott, Mr Lee Mark Hunter and Freer, Mike Lopresti, Jack Selous, Andrew Karen Bradley Fuller, Richard Lord, Jonathan Gale, Sir Roger Loughton, Tim Question accordingly negatived. Garnier, Sir Edward Luff, Peter George, Andrew Lumley, Karen Gibb, Mr Nick Macleod, Mary 5pm Gilbert, Stephen Main, Mrs Anne Amendment made: 25, page 52, line 8, leave out from Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Maude, rh Mr Francis ‘begins’ to ‘or’ in line 9 and insert Glen, John Maynard, Paul ‘on or after the day on which section 61 of the Enterprise and Goldsmith, Zac McCartney, Jason Regulatory Reform Act 2012 comes into force’.—(Matthew Goodwill, Mr Robert McCartney, Karl Hancock.) 405 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 406 Bill Bill Clause 62 the Department at the time,agreed to reflect on the clause and we have also had further discussions with RESTRICTIONS ON PAYMENTS TO DIRECTORS interested parties. Amendments made: 26, page 53, line 19, at end insert— The Government have considered this point carefully ‘ “quoted company” has the same meaning as in and think that amendments to clause 57 are the best Part 15 of this Act;’. way to address the concerns expressed by Committee Amendment 27, page 53, line 22, leave out from members and industry stakeholders. I reassure hon. ‘person’ to ‘other’ in line 23 and insert ‘— Members that the policy intent behind the clause remains (a) holding, agreeing to hold or having held office as unchanged. The clause was never intended to give the director of a company, or Government the ability to change copyright exceptions in ways that we cannot already change them and I hope (b) holding, agreeing to hold or having held, during a period when the person is or was such a director— that the amendments now make that abundantly clear. (i) any other office or employment in connection with Changes to copyright exceptions are subject to a the management of the affairs of the company, or tightly prescribed list set out in the EU information (ii) any office (as director or otherwise) or employment society directive. The European Communities Act 1972 in connection with the management of the affairs provide the mechanism by which EU law is applied at a of any subsidiary undertaking of the company,’. national level—in this case on copyright exceptions. Amendment 28, page 54, line 27, after ‘be’ insert ‘or The clause will permit the Secretary of State to make has been’.—(Matthew Hancock.) any changes that remove or narrow an exception without affecting the maximum criminal penalties that Parliament has set. Without the amendment, the criminal penalties Clause 63 might have had to be reduced and I do not think that is the aim of the Bill. PAYMENTS TO DIRECTORS: MINOR AND CONSEQUENTIAL AMENDMENTS The stakeholders who had raised concerns about the clause, including the British Copyright Council, UK Amendment made: 29, page 58, line 4, at end insert— Music, the Publishers Association, the Creators’ Rights ‘(12) In that Schedule, in the first column, after “quoted Alliance and the Premier League, have written to the company”, insert— Secretary of State confirming their support for the “in Chapter 4A of Part 10 section 226A(1)”.’. Government’s amendments.

Jim Dowd (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab): The Minister mentioned the enormous concern across the Clause 64 creative sector about the clause and, more particularly, its purpose when it was first introduced. His reference PAYMENTS TO DIRECTORS: TRANSITIONAL PROVISION to the fact that all it does is endorse existing law will have confused many people, as they will have wondered Amendment made: 30, page 58, line 13, leave out from why, if that was so, the clause was needed at all. If it is ‘begin’ to ‘, and’ in line 14 and insert needed, and if the amendments we are discussing go ‘on or after the day on which that section of this Act comes into some way to addressing the problem, can he give us an force’.—(Matthew Hancock.) assurance that any exception arising from Hargreaves, the Intellectual Property Office or any other source will Clause 57 be treated as primary legislation? If he cannot do that, will he undertake that every piece of secondary legislation POWER TO CHANGE EXCEPTIONS: COPYRIGHT AND will be introduced individually and will include a RIGHTS IN PERFORMANCES comprehensive impact assessment before it is brought to this House? Matthew Hancock: I beg to move amendment 23, page 47, line 17, at end insert— Matthew Hancock: I can assure the hon. Gentleman “( ) But regulations under this section may make only such that any proposed exceptions will be the subject of provision as may be made under subsection (2) of section 2 of secondary legislation and will therefore be debated. the European Communities Act 1972 or such provision as could Each separate element of a statutory instrument can be be made under that subsection if paragraph 1(1)(d) of Schedule 2 debated—that is the function of the secondary legislation to that Act did not apply.’. procedure. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): With this it Amendment 75 would require the Secretary of State will be convenient to discuss the following: to take into account any feasibility study undertaken of Government amendment 24. which organisation is best placed to issue licences Amendment 75, in clause 59, page 49, line 19, at end authorising the use of orphan works. insert— Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): Will the Minister ‘(7) The Secretary of State must have regard to any feasibility give way? study commissioned on the licensing of orphan works in advance of the regulations being laid before Parliament.’. Matthew Hancock: On this point? Matthew Hancock: In Committee, a number of questions were asked about the scope of what was then clause 56— Kevin Brennan: On the point being debated, yes. now clause 57—on copyright. The hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb), who was a Minister in Matthew Hancock: I give way. 407 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 408 Bill Bill Kevin Brennan: It is usual to give way during this me as being a Stone Roses man; he strikes me more as a stage. What does the Minister think is the maximum JLS-One Direction man. I imagine that he would be number of exceptions that ought to be included within keen on that. One Direction seems appropriate, given one statutory instrument, given that he has been unable his closeness to the Chancellor. to give the assurance sought by my hon. Friend the We lead the world in different parts of the sector. Member for Lewisham West and Penge (Jim Dowd) With a rise in the global middle class, which wants to be that each exception will be treated separately if secondary entertained, it is important that we continue to lead the legislation is used? Also, will he confirm that in all cases world. There are many reasons for our pre-eminence in the affirmative procedure will be used? the industry, not least the solid legislative framework governing copyright and intellectual property. We lose Matthew Hancock: I give the assurance on the second that at our peril. point: the normal procedures will be used. The normal As I mentioned in previous debates throughout the procedures will govern what goes into one statutory passage of the Bill, a partnership approach is needed, instrument and then, as we all know, debate on a statutory with Government identifying the competitive sectors in instrument covers all elements of the instrument. That which Britain can lead the world and working closely is the procedure for a statutory instrument that is debated. with business and with those sectors to ensure growth Amendment 75 proposes that account be taken of and potential opportunities. We have not yet seen such any feasibility study before the Government lay regulations a partnership approach. It did not seem to exist in the on the orphan works scheme—that is, I think, the Government’s original drafting of the clause on copyright. essence of the amendment. In principle, we understand The unilateral approach taken by Ministers, without the need for studies and consideration of such important consultation with the industry and—surprise, surprise— questions, but we do not think that such a requirement without empirical evidence or an impact assessment—where is appropriate in primary legislation. If the proposal is have we heard that before?—caused alarm and uncertainty that the conclusions of a feasibility study should among stakeholders in the industry and threatened automatically and immediately have legislative effect, significant and long-term investment decisions for this we have to ask what would happen if the recommendations country. of a commissioned study could not, for good and I quoted in Committee, and it is worth repeating to legitimate reasons, be accepted. However, I can assure the House, the submission from UK Music, which said: the House that the Government will carefully consider which bodies or body should be responsible for licensing “The inclusion of copyright clauses in this Bill came as a surprise to many copyright stakeholders. We widely anticipated orphan works, including whether they have the necessary copyright legislation, but we did not anticipate that the copyright independence, expertise, resources and processes. legislation would be attached to this particular Bill. This ‘surprise’ Although there is some work still to do on deciding generated a degree of confusion and alarm amongst our community. which organisation should be responsible, it is unlikely This was needless. Better communication between the Government to be a new body. We looked at the arrangements in and its key stakeholders would have prevented this.” other jurisdictions: in Canada, the copyright board has Opposition Members entirely agree with those sentiments. that responsibility; in Hungary, the intellectual property The clause as originally drafted would have given the office has it. Jurisdictions overseas locate the role in Secretary of State order-making powers to allow different parts of Government, according to where the amendment of any exceptions via secondary legislation. appropriate expertise is found. There could be a role for This power was considered necessary to deal with the collecting societies to license orphan works of a type situation where, under the EuropeanCommunities Act 1972, where a collecting society already operates in that sector, the Government are able to amend exceptions to copyright but many of the orphan works held by museums and and performance rights which may, so the Government archives, for example, are not of types that are currently stated, restrict the maximum statutory penalties. We collectively licensed; such works include unpublished argued in Committee and tabled amendments to the diaries, old photographs and oral history recordings. effect that the wording of the clause was too loose, In the light of those reassurances and given that the lacked clarity and provided the Secretary of State with regulations cannot be laid until the work is completed, I too wide a power to deal with this issue. ask the hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) not In Committee the Government stated that this was to press amendment 75 and the House to support not so and that there was no case for our amendment. I Government amendments 23 and 24. therefore welcome the fact, although I am surprised, that the Government tabled amendments 23 and 24, Mr Iain Wright: I was broadly reassured until the which specify that regulations under this section may Minister made his comments, but now I am as uncertain make only such provision as may be made under section 2(2) as ever. The Public Bill Committee spent significant of the 1972 Act. I do not want to be churlish on this time debating copyright, and rightly so, as the legislative point and I am pleased that the Government have framework—not regulation, but a legislative framework— listened, albeit somewhat late in the process, to us and, governing copyright has been a crucial ingredient in more importantly, to stakeholders. allowing Britain to be at the heart of the global creative However, as we have hinted in interventions, there is and cultural industry. not complete unanimity throughout the industry when We lead the world in many parts of that cultural and it comes to Government amendments 23 and 24. Some creative sector, from publishing—as we heard, in Committee stakeholders, who are looking to invest in the UK, such the then Minister was keen to talk in vivid and animated as British Pathé, are still concerned that the Government terms about “Fifty Shades of Grey”—to the video have misinterpreted section 2(2) of the 1972 Act. They gaming industry, where we lead the world, to music, argue that if that part of the 1972 Act gives the Government and I was particularly keen to talk about the Stone powers to change copyright exceptions by statutory Roses, which was fantastic. The Minister does not strike instrument, the Government have that right. Nothing in 409 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 410 Bill Bill the Bill would change that. There is therefore no need to We are not against the concept of orphan works, as I clarify the point in the Bill, because the power already mentioned in Committee, provided that safeguards are exists. The only reason for writing the power into the in place to ensure that the party that wants to use the Bill in clause 57 would be if it did not exist. The work has undertaken a diligent search. I recognise—the managing director of British Pathé said to me in an Minister alluded to this—the huge benefits that could e-mail last night that “the statement is redundant” be unlocked as a result of orphan works licensing. For unless that is the case. example, I can anticipate SMEs building new platforms There remains a concern among some stakeholders and applications for the re-use of digitised content, with that clause 57 merely allows extensions to criminal innovation and new business models coming forward to penalties relating to exceptions. However, it has been use the content commercially so that Britain can lead noted that nearly all copyright infringements relate not the world, enriching the research and cultural environment to exceptions, but to matters such as piracy and theft, and thereby consolidating the UK’s position as the which are neither covered in clause 57, nor addressed by destination of choice, whether literally or online, in the the Government’s amendments. Therefore, given the 21st century as the place for education and research, Minister’s move in this regard, which has been welcomed particularly in the cultural sector. by much of the industry, will he respond to the specific The Bill provides the legislative framework for orphan concerns of companies, such as British Pathé and ITN, works licensing but is, as is probably inevitable and that remain despite the Government’s amendments? desirable in primary legislation, high-level and somewhat Will he reassure me on that point? vague in detail. The crucial details that stakeholders will be looking for are yet to be determined and will be 5.15 pm available via regulations. However, it would be useful to Kevin Brennan: Will my hon. Friend also seek an get on the record as much certainty and clarity about assurance from the Minister that, when in future he the Government’s intended direction of travel in order considers any piece of legislation containing clauses to allow the industry, including existing players and relating to copyright, never again will the umbrella potential new entrants to the market, to start gearing body for the UK music industry be given absolutely no up to use the licences commercially. The purpose of our prior knowledge of it? Perhaps the Minister could give amendment is to probe the Minister on his intended the House that assurance when he responds. direction of travel and ensure that a feasibility study considers certain aspects of the policy and that the Mr Wright: I absolutely agree. I will take this opportunity Government take these findings into account, not in a to wish my hon. Friend a happy birthday for yesterday—a completely solid way but making sure that these matters birthday he shares with several other Members, not are addressed. least the eminent Chair of the Culture, Media and Will the Minister indicate the identity of the authorising Sport Committee, the hon. Member for Maldon body or bodies? He mentioned it briefly in his opening (Mr Whittingdale). My hon. Friend made two important remarks, but it would be useful to put a little bit more interventions. When he intervened on me he mentioned meat on the bones. What sort of time scale is he the lack of consultation and the surprise of important working towards? When does he anticipate that the stakeholders, such as UK Music, about these provisions. introduction of such schemes, and the laying down of That is not the way to have clarity about Government regulations as a preliminary step, will take place? What policy on something as important as the creative and will be the scope of the orphan work licensing schemes? cultural sectors. I hope that that is a wake-up call, Will this be done on a sector-by-sector basis? Will it be because we have seen the Government do the same based on a “specific types of work” approach, or will elsewhere, for example with the feed-in tariffs and the there be a big bang in which all possible orphan work oil and gas tax charges. To move without any concern schemes will be incorporated from day 1? for what stakeholders are thinking is not in the best interests of the British economy and industry. Will the Minister outline how he anticipates that any The second point that my hon. Friend made, when he diligent search on a work-by-work basis will move intervened on the Minister, relates to the use of statutory forward? I am fairly sure that every such search will instruments. I rose to say that I felt more confused as a have to be done on an individual work basis rather than result of the Minister’s comments than I did when I by batching works together. Am I right in that thinking, entered the Chamber today. Part of our discussions in or is he considering any change in the individual works Committee was about the fear of bundling some of versus batch approach? Could diligent searches be re-used these points into a single statutory instrument. The within a certain time period? How will the Minister—again, Minister must have served on a delegated legislation this is part of the feasibility study leading into the Committee during his time in the House and will know regulations—strike the balance between the rights of that the only way the House can express a view on such the licensee, allowing the licence holder to commercially instruments is by voting in favour or against; there is no use the rights arising from that licence, and the rights of way we can express a view on individual provisions. the relevant rights holder? What will happen in the Therefore, will he clarify to what extent he will be able event that the parent comes forward? How will remuneration to bundle points relating to copyright exceptions into be worked out in such an event? Will a certain amount single SIs, which would not allow the House to express of time be stipulated in regulations following the awarding our views? of an orphan works licence? I now to turn to our amendment 75, which proposes We lead the world in the cultural and creative industries, that the Secretary of State and many people will want to take that away from us for “must have regard to any feasibility study commissioned on the a variety of reasons. We need to make sure that we can licensing of orphan works in advance of the regulations being maintain our competitive advantage. That requires close laid before Parliament.” co-operation, with an active industrial sector strategy 411 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 412 Bill Bill [Mr Iain Wright] statutory instrument, would be extremely welcome and would reinforce the point that the provision is not about between the industry and Government. Sadly, during that, but about criminal penalties. the passage of the Bill, that has been lacking in the provisions on copyright. I hope that the Minister has Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): I learned his lesson and look forward to his comments. do not know whether I should break out into song and wish a belated happy birthday to the hon. Members for Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con): We do not Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) and for Maldon have a lot of time, and I do not want to detain the (Mr Whittingdale), or declare my favourite band. Whenever House unduly. However, although it is recognised that the hon. Member for Cardiff West and I appear in the this matter forms only a small part of the Bill, the Chamber together, I always try to plug MP4, because importance of the creative industries to our national we comprise half the band. We will conclude our world economy, and the contribution that they are making to tour of UK party conferences this Saturday, which is growth, is so essential that we need to look very carefully worth noting as a landmark occasion. at anything that affects the livelihoods of those working I agree with and endorse what the Chair of the there—and the creative industries rest on the protection Culture, Media and Sport Committee said about the value of intellectual property rights. of copyright to our creative industries. It is the very On Second Reading, I suggested to the Secretary of essence of what underpins our success and probably State that clause 57—then clause 56—could be used to makes the UK the leader in so many sectors throughout make substantial changes to copyright law through the world, from music, drama and film to Premier statutory instruments. I am grateful to him for meeting League football. It is the one thing that makes sure that representatives of a wide range of creative industries to we can continue to deliver that immense conveyor belt discuss those concerns. That has led, to some extent, to of talent that excels right around the world. the amendment that the Government have tabled. As We muck about with copyright at our peril and must the Minister said, several representatives of the creative tread carefully with regard to copyright exceptions. We industries, such as UK Music, the British Copyright have to know exactly what we are doing, which is why Council, the Publishers Association and the Premier impact assessments are vital and why the Minister’s League have said that they are now satisfied. confused response alarms me and is of concern. We However, as the hon. Member for Hartlepool have to know what the exact impact will be on all the (Mr Wright) said, that is not a unanimous view across sectors and everybody involved in the creative industries, the industry. The Minister has assured us that this is and listen carefully to what they have to say. about enforcing penalties but, despite the Government’s I welcome the amendment, but only half-heartedly. amendment, the clause does not mention penalties. I For once, the Government have listened to representatives am therefore still not clear as to why the Government from the creative industries, who have not received a did not accept the suggestion that they make it absolutely particularly good welcome from them over the past few explicit in the Bill that it is all about penalties. Instead, it years. They feel undervalued and sense that their concerns, talks about exceptions, and it still allows changes to be which they make eloquently to the Government, are made to copyright law by statutory instrument. Following ignored and that, if they are listened to, it is in a the Hargreaves report, there is still great suspicion on half-hearted way. the part of many of those in the creative industries that The issue of copyright exceptions is important. We there is an intention to try to dilute intellectual property have had the Hargreaves report, the Government’s response rights. They fear that the clause could be used—perhaps to it and the Intellectual Property Office’s examination not by this Government but by a future Government—to of how the report’s recommendations could be bring forward changes to copyright law. implemented. I am sure that the Minister will be thrilled Those fears have been expressed, as the hon. Member to know that he is about to receive the report by the for Hartlepool said, by a wide range of organisations, all-party group on intellectual property, of which I and including Associated Press, ITN, Getty Images, the the hon. Members for Maldon and for Lewisham West Press Association, British Pathé, Agence France Presse and Penge (Jim Dowd) are members. It will suggest and Deutsche Presse-Agentur. I will quote one sentence various ways in which IP policy could be better formulated from the letter they have sent that sums up the problem across Government and across Departments, and suggest that the Government face: the need for a real champion of IP copyright, because “It therefore remains our concern that…the true purpose of that is what is missing. Clause 57…as drafted” We need a proper investigation and an impact assessment. is that The assumptions that underpin a number of the Hargreaves “it will be used as a vehicle to push through a number of changes recommendations are nonsense. The examples that caught to copyright exceptions recommended by the Hargreaves Review, our eye related to copyright exceptions, such as the which we discussed with you at our meeting because of the assertion that an exception for format shifting would be detrimental impact to business and the creative industries as well worth £2 billion to the UK economy. The funniest as…ultimately…to the UK’s future economic growth.” assumption was the claim that an exception for parody I welcome the Minister’s assurance that that is not the of intellectual property could increase the UK economy Government’s intention, but it must be of concern that by £600,000. Those assumptions were challenged, but a number of organisations that are important to this they were asserted by the IPO without any real foundation. country retain that suspicion. Anything that the That is why this House has properly to consider copyright Government can say or do now to allay that suspicion exceptions. If we do not, we will be left with that sort of and make it clear that they do not intend to implement nonsense. We have to make sure that that does not the Hargreaves recommendations in a bundle, via a happen again. 413 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 414 Bill Bill I join others in calling on the Minister to listen to the Government have not fully taken account of their concerns concerns that the creative industries still have about the and reservations. I heard what the Minister had to say, potential bundling together of proposals in secondary including his assurance that the Government amendments legislation. The Rolls-Royce model is primary legislation, are designed to achieve that. I have also spoken to the whereby Members of Parliament can come to the House Secretary of State and passed him the detailed reservations to have a proper debate and kickabout on proposals for that have been communicated to me. copyright exceptions. If that is not to happen, the Nevertheless, I have been advised that the uncertainty Minister must provide a better assurance that there will that the creative industry or intellectual property sector be separate pieces of secondary, delegated legislation, feels may be having a negative effect on commercial with full impact assessments, so that we can understand decisions. It has been reported to me that some business the impact that any further copyright exceptions will interests are actively considering relocating out of the have on all the relevant sectors. UK because of their concerns about the uncertainty. The Minister has made it clear that that is not the Jim Dowd: To reinforce that point, the wooliness of Government’s wish or intention. I accept that that is the Minister’s response, if it is left like that this evening, said in good faith. However, I ask him to consider the will have created an awful lot of work for his colleagues representations that are being made and to reflect on at the other end of the building. There are people down whether the Government amendments will allay the there who know better than most Members of this practical concerns. I appreciate that our consideration House precisely what the Government’s lack of decision—or is at a late stage, but, as has been mentioned, the else their attempt to hide what they are doing—really legislation will go to another place. Those who are in means. that place will no doubt want to bring forward more detailed proposals if they are required. 5.30 pm The concern, which has been articulated much more Pete Wishart: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman eloquently by others, is that we could lose intellectual because he is spot on. The other House has people who property rights in a bundle of legislation that goes have looked at these issues over a long career, who know through in a Committee Room, without adequate debate the dangers and who understand that we have to tread or amendment. That could have far-reaching and negative sensitively and carefully when we look at copyright commercial consequences. In recognition of the exceptions. Government’s dilemma, I would say that we need to I hope that the Minister listens to the concerns that strike a balance. It is understood that excessive protection have been raised not only by the creative industries, but of intellectual property rights can be contrary to free by hon. Members who have an interest in copyright trade. Of course, it is important that we get the balance issues. I hope he will give us the assurance that there will right. Equally, those who are creative in any sector have be no bundling of copyright exceptions in secondary the right to know that they will not suddenly find their legislation and that we will have full impact assessments intellectual property taken away from them at short if there are further copyright exceptions. He must also notice. Protection against that must not be weaker in do something to convince those of us in the House and the UK than elsewhere in the EU or in the rest of the those in the creative industries who still have major world. concerns about what is being proposed. The importance of this matter has been communicated I will touch briefly on the Labour amendment. I to me by people who know better than I do. They are support it and think that it is sensible to ensure that we still concerned that what the Government are doing will have a proper assessment before we move on to the threaten the commercial viability of UK investments, licensing of orphan works. Orphan works have been and I am sure that is not the Government’s intention. hotly debated a number of times in the House, particularly when discussing Hargreaves. The matter has caused Matthew Hancock: I welcome the Opposition Front great anxiety and unhappiness, particularly among Benchers’ support for the two Government amendments photographers, who have massive concerns about how in this group. I want to reiterate the value of intellectual their industry is threatened by the Hargreaves exceptions property, which is underpinned by our copyright regime, on orphan works. It is entirely sensible to have a proper to the UK economy not only in the past but, I imagine, assessment before we proceed with the licensing of increasingly in the future. A strong IP regime is vital to orphan works. I heard the Minister’s response to the the creative industries, in which we thrive and are hugely plea from the Labour spokesman for the assessment. I successfully. Ensuring that that regime is right and hope that the proposal will be considered properly. We strong is a crucial part of having a strong economic need to hear more about what the Minister intends to future. The Digital Economy Act 2010, which strengthened do to ensure that we do not do anything wrong in the many areas of law, and the extension of the length of licensing of orphan works. copyright in music indicate the Government’s commitment Most importantly, we must hear from the Minister to a strong and supportive intellectual property regime. that he will do the right thing by the creative industries, I will go through the points that Members have made. that there will be no bundling of legislation, and that It is simply not correct to suggest that these proposals Members of this House will have a proper opportunity have not been widely consulted on. Indeed, they are to scrutinise and debate such measures. based on recommendations in the Hargreaves review, which itself drew on extensive evidence. The response to Sir Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): I defer entirely to that review was followed by a formal consultation, the Members who have engaged in the debate hitherto, which received almost 500 written responses. There has but I have been alerted this week to outstanding concerns been extensive work with interested parties following among those involved in intellectual property that the that. I reiterate the Government’s willingness to engage 415 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 416 Bill Bill [Matthew Hancock] Clause 68 with stakeholders including Members, many of whom EXTENT have a long-standing interest in the subject. Members Amendments made: 31, page 59, line 34, leave out throughout the House share not just birthdays but ‘17(1)(c)’ and insert ‘17(2A)’. interests, and their engagement must and will continue. Amendment 32, page 60, line 14, after ‘50,’ insert The Government will announce their policy intent ‘[Osborne estate],’. with regard to the exceptions recommended in Hargreaves Amendment 33, page 60, line 14, after ‘54’ insert ‘and this autumn. Exceptions can be introduced, extended [Estate agency work]’. and updated using the existing provisions of section 2(2) Amendment 34, page 60, line 15, at end insert— of the European Communities Act 1972. The proposed way forward represents no change to how exceptions ‘() section [Civil liability for breach of health and safety can be introduced and updated under the existing provisions. duties] extends only to England and Wales and Scotland except that it also extends to Northern The problem is that the criminal penalties available in Ireland so far as Parts 1 and 4 of the Health and statute brought in under that Act carry a maximum Safety at Work etc. Act 1974 extend there,’. penalty of two years’ imprisonment. In the case of Amendment 35, page 60, line 16, leave out ‘section’ many of the offences that we are discussing, penalties and insert ‘sections’. are longer than two years and can be up to 10 years. It is in the interest of those who want to ensure that their Amendment 36, page 60, line 16, after ‘52’ insert copyrights are protected to make sure that criminal ‘, [Equality Act 2010: third party harassment of employees and penalties are that high. We do not want to have to bring applicants] and [Equality Act 2010: obtaining information for them down to two years, in order to use the 1972 Act. proceedings]’. Clause 57 is not needed to implement Hargreaves, but it Amendment 37, page 60, line 16, leave out ‘extends’ allows us to do so in a way consistent with the existing, and insert stronger criminal penalties, which I know the industry ‘and paragraphs 1, 52 to 54, 56 and 61 of Schedule and many stakeholders support. Having received that [Adjudicators: minor and consequential amendments] extend’. reassurance, the British Copyright Council, UK Music, Amendment 38, page 60, line 17, leave out ‘section’ the Publishers Association and the Premier League are and insert ‘sections’. happy to support the Government amendments. Amendment 39, page 60, line 17, before ‘51’ insert Jim Dowd: On that point, why does the Minister not ‘[Listed buildings in England: agreements and orders granting do what was suggested by the hon. Member for Maldon listed building consent],’. (Mr Whittingdale) and simply put in a tightened disciplinary Amendment 40, page 60, line 17, before ‘51’ insert regime and nothing else? Why is that so difficult for the ‘[Listed buildings in England: certificates of lawfulness],’. Government to accept, if that is the sole purpose of the Amendment 41, page 60, line 17, after ‘51’ insert ‘ clause? and [Adjudicators]’. Matthew Hancock: Because we want to ensure, as Amendment 42, page 60, line 17, leave out first and when technical amendments are considered, that ‘Schedule’ and insert ‘Schedules’. we do not have to water down criminal penalties because Amendment 43, page 60, line 17, before ‘16’ insert of the way that the measures are introduced. ‘and [Local listed building consent orders: procedure]’. We are not in a position to announce a precise Amendment 44, page 60, line 17, after ‘17’ insert timetable for work on orphan works, but we expect it to ‘, Schedule [Adjudicators: bankruptcy applications by debtors be concluded during 2013 and certainly before any and bankruptcy orders] and paragraphs 2 to 51, 55, 57 to 60 and regulations are made. I commit the Government to 62 of Schedule [Adjudicators: minor and consequential discussing the details with Opposition Front-Bench amendments]’. Members, and others, during that process. Amendment 45, page 60, line 22, at end insert The Government amendments have been tabled with ‘except that section [Power to provide for equal pay audits] strong support for the IP regime on which much of our extends only to England and Wales and Scotland’.—(Matthew industry is based, and although the Government recognise Hancock.) the probing nature of the Opposition amendments, and commit to continued analysis of and engagement on those issues, we do not think that they should be included Clause 69 in the Bill. COMMENCEMENT Amendment 23 agreed to. Amendments made: 46, page 60, line 26, at end insert— ‘() section [Osborne estate];’. Clause 57 Amendment 47, page 60, line 26, at end insert— ‘() section [Power to provide for equal pay audits];’.— POWER TO CHANGE EXCEPTIONS: COPYRIGHT AND (Matthew Hancock.) RIGHTS IN PERFORMANCES Amendment made: 24, page 47, line 33, at end insert— Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab): I beg to move amendment 69, page 60, line 30, at end “( ) But regulations under this section may make only such provision as may be made under subsection (2) of section 2 of insert— the European Communities Act 1972 or such provision as could ‘(d) Sections [Local authorities: powers relating to deemed be made under that subsection if paragraph 1(1)(d) of Schedule 2 consent] and [Restriction of advertisements relating to that Act did not apply.’.—(Matthew Hancock.) to property letting].’. 417 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 418 Bill Bill Mr Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss (11) In item (5) delete part (c). the following: (12) In item (5b) delete “her” and insert “the local authority”. New clause 4—Town and country planning: Amendment (13) In item (5c(i)) delete “she” and insert “the local of the Town and Country Planning (Control of authority”. Advertisements) (England) Regulations 2007— (14) In item (5c(i)) delete “her” and insert “the local ‘(1) Class 3 of Schedule 3 to the Town and Country Planning authority’s”. (Control of Advertisements) (England) Regulations 2007, (15) In item (6) delete from “Where” to end and insert “Where (Classes of advertisements for which deemed consent is granted) the local authority makes a direction it shall send a copy of its is amended as follows. reasons to every person who has made a paragraph (3) (2) In item 3A, after “sale”, leave out “or letting”. representation.”. (3) In item 3A(2), after both uses of “sold”, leave out “or let”. (16) In item (7) delete “unless the Secretary of State otherwise directs”. (4) In item 3A(2), after “sale”, leave out “or letting”. New clause 21—Restriction of advertisement relating (5) In item 3A(8), after “sale”, leave out “or letting”.’. to property lettings— New clause 5—Town and country planning: responsibilities ‘(1) Local authorities in England which enjoy day-to-day of housing authorities— responsibility for housing policy within their local authority area ‘(1) Local authorities in England which enjoy day-to-day may make by-laws restricting for all or part of the authority the responsibility for housing policy within their local authority area display of external advertisements concerning property lettings. may make by-laws regulating for all or part of the authority the (2) It shall be an offence to display an external advertisement display of external advertisements concerning property lettings. concerning property letting in areas or cases where the Local (2) If a housing authority has not specifically provided for the Planning Authority has, under subsection (1), passed a by-law display of external notices advertising a property to let then such prohibiting external advertisements concerning property letting. a notice is not permitted.’. (3) A person found guilty of an offence under subsection (2) is New clause 6—Town and country planning: offences— liable, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding level 4 on ‘(1) It shall be an offence to display an external notice the standard scale. prohibited by subsection (2) of section (Town and country (4) A person found guilty of a second or subsequent offence planning: responsibilities of housing authorities). under subsection (2) is liable, on summary conviction, to a fine (2) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) is liable, not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale for each such on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding level 4 on the offence.’. standard scale. Amendment 91, line 7 after ‘directors;’, insert (3) A person guilty of a second or subsequent offence under ‘to make provision about advertisements concerning property subsection (1) is liable, on summary conviction, to a fine not lettings;’. exceeding level 5 on the standard for each seperate such offence.’. Mr Brown: New clause 21 is subsidiary to new clause 20, New clause 7—Town and country planning: as are amendments 91 and 69. I will not speak to new commencement and extent— clauses 4 to 7, which offer an alternative way of dealing ‘(1) Sections (Town and country planning: Amendment of the with the same problem. I believe that new clause 20 Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) offers the better of the two routes forward, and I am (England) Regulations 2007, Town and country planning: grateful to my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds responsibilities of housing authorities, and Town and country planning: offences) come into force two months after the day on Central (Hilary Benn), the Front-Bench spokesman on which this Act is passed. these matters for the parliamentary Labour party, for suggesting it to me. New clause 21 sets out the offences; (2) Sections (Town and country planning: Amendment of the Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) amendment 69 sets the date of enactment, which will be (England) Regulations 2007, Town and country planning: the same as for the rest of the Bill. I have been advised responsibilities of housing authorities, and Town and country by the Public Bill Office that amendment 91 is a technical planning: offences) extend to England only.’. necessity for my principal proposal. New clause 20—Local authorities: powers relating to I wish to amend regulation 7 of the Town and Country deemed consent— Planning (Control of Advertisements) (England) ‘(1) Part 2 Regulation 7 of the Town and Country Planning Regulations 2007, so that matters relating to the control (Control of Advertisements) (England) Regulations 2007 is of estate agents’ “To let” signs are under the control of amended as follows. the local authorities that make bylaws about such matters, (2) In item (1) delete “Secretary of State” and insert “local rather than being governed by primary legislation and authority”. the central regulation that currently applies. The proposals (3) In item (1) delete “upon a proposal made to her by the do not abolish the central regulation of the original local planning authority”. enactment; they merely give local government the right and ability to supplement it. That could mean extending (4) In item (1) delete “she” and insert “the local authority”. the use of “To let” signs, but it is far more likely to mean (5) In item (2) delete “ Secretary of State” and insert “local restricting it. authority”. This is a moderate proposition, and when I introduced (6) In item (2b) delete “her” and insert “the local authority’s”. a ten-minute rule Bill on the subject it had all-party (7) In item (3) delete “Secretary of State” and insert “local support and its First Reading was not opposed. The authority”. problem is that the “To let” sign regime is widely abused (8) In item (4) delete “Secretary of State” and insert “local in urban areas, and properties with short-term leases authority”. find that the signs are left up all year round. Why would (9) In item (5) delete “ Secretary of State” and insert “local an estate agent or landlord want to do that? Because the authority”. sign serves as a form of advertisement for the lettings (10) In item (5b) delete “the local planning authority and to agent. In the modern era, the signs do not facilitate the any other” and insert “any”. search for flats; they just advertise the estate agent. 419 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 420 Bill Bill 5.45 pm The right hon. Gentleman’s solution is to ensure that, Local authorities want to deal with the matter, but instead of being able to apply, more often the power the available route involves a long and complicated would need to be put in place, but that would be an procedure between the local authority and the Department. extra burden. I understand the concern, however, and My local authority in Newcastle upon Tyne has been agree that the Secretary of State has more important trying to introduce a licensing regime for five years now, things to do. New clause 20 proposes to take the Secretary but has not yet done so—not for want of trying on its of State out of the decision-making process. I shall take part. I understand from speaking to my right hon. that point away and discuss it with ministerial colleagues, Friend the Member for Leeds Central that it took Leeds including in the Department for Communities and Local city council, which got a head start on Newcastle in that Government, and with him. I hope that he can take that respect, six years to introduce the regime, but it works assurance and that we can take things forward from well. there. If the Government believe in cutting bureaucracy Mr Nicholas Brown: I am grateful for the Minister’s and in a doctrine of subsidiarity—in other words, that a assurance. I wrote to the Department at the time of my decision is best taken at the lowest appropriate level of ten-minute rule Bill on this subject offering to co-operate government—surely they believe that the regulation of with the Government by putting it into Committee and “To let” signs is a matter for local government, and not accepting their amendments and any tidying up they a matter that the Secretary of State and his Ministers, wanted, if they agreed to facilitate the Bill’s progress who have a lot of other important things to do, should through the House, which, as he will know, is in their concern themselves with detail by detail, local authority gift—without it, I would have had to overcome many by local authority. more hurdles. I am grateful for his assurance, then, and Different local authorities may make different decisions I hope that he stays in office long enough to implement on the matter. I say let them. Set the people free! it, because the previous Ministers did not even have time to answer my letter before being dispatched elsewhere—or, in the case of one of them, just dispatched! Matthew Hancock: I commend the right hon. Member I look forward to working with him, and, given his for Newcastle upon Tyne East (Mr Brown) for his assurance, I will not press my amendment to a vote. I assiduous and long-standing opposition to “To let” beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. signs. I wonder what has driven him to this position, but Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. I recognise and celebrate his tenacity in finding occasions on which to make such proposals in the House— [Interruption.] I might have a little bit of good news for Clause 50 him, if Opposition Members would care to listen. SUNSET AND REVIEW PROVISIONS I appreciate that the proliferation of “To let” signs can be a serious problem, but new clause 21 is slightly Matthew Hancock: I beg to move disproportionate. The right hon. Gentleman pointed amendment 21, page 42, line 38, leave out ‘, other than out deficiencies in the current remedy for the local the Scottish Ministers,’. planning authority—seeking a direction under regulation 7 of the Town and Country Planning (Control of Mr Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss Advertisements) (England) Regulations 2007—but his the following: Government amendment 22. solution is to ban “To let” boards unless a local authority Amendment 63, page 43, line 1, leave out ‘may’ and makes byelaws to allow them. insert ‘must’. Amendment 64, page 43, line 4, after ‘specified period’, Mr Brown: That was my alternative proposal, which I insert ‘, or’. have not moved. My more moderate proposal would Amendment 65, page 43, line 6, after ‘specified period’, allow the local authority to supplement the statutory insert ‘, or’. regulations rather than replace them. Amendment 66, page 43, line 10, leave out line 10 and insert ‘If the provision is made by virtue of subsection (2)(a), it includes’. Matthew Hancock: I agree with the right hon. Gentleman on allowing local authorities to have the power to Amendment 67, page 43, line 19, leave out ‘may’ and change the situation on the ground with regard to “To insert ‘must if necessary’. let” signs. The powers exist, but there are very few New clause 26—Review of legislation relating to health applications for them—there have been only 10 in the and safety at work and application of sunset and review past six years—which indicates that the problem is not provisions to this legislation— hugely widespread, although it is a serious issue in some ‘(1) The Secretary of State must— areas. (a) carry out a review of the effectiveness of all existing The directions tend to fall into two groups. The first legislation relating to health and safety at work, and is where there are large houses in sensitive architectural (b) prepare and publish a report setting out the areas, such as Kensington and Chelsea in London, or conclusions of the review. Brighton and Hove. The second group is where there is (2) The review and report must quantify, in particular— a large concentration of student houses, such as in (a) the effectiveness of the legislation in terms of reducing Leeds, Loughborough, Nottingham or Newcastle. deaths, injuries and sickness in the workplace, Authorities in such areas have already successfully obtained (b) the human cost, and full societal costs of work-related directions and are exercising the necessary control. injuries, deaths and ill-health in terms of pain and Therefore, the ability to take control is in law. suffering, injuries, sickness and years of life lost, and 421 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 422 Bill Bill (c) the full societal costs of the impact of the legislation legislation, rather than this “maybe, maybe not.” In the including those costs resulting from welfare and remaining time, will the Minister please address the healthcare spending, and resulting from the number question of why he has chosen “may”rather than “must”? of days lost in the workplace due to ill-health. (3) Subordinate legislation under section 14A of the Matthew Hancock: One reason why is that it would Interpretation Act 1978 in respect of any provision relating to be unreasonable to include a requirement to sunset all health and safety at work may not be made until after the report legislation, including primary legislation, when some of has been published.’. it is intended to set a long-term framework. For instance, when we set the structures in which our energy market Matthew Hancock: Amendments 21 and 22 are technical operates, it is important to show clarity and long-term amendments, the effect of which I hope will be decision making, and we can deliver that, especially straightforward and non-controversial. The changes where there is cross-party consent. Therefore, although proposed in Clause 50 will support the implementation we want to ensure that sunsetting is the norm, especially of the Government’s policy on reducing the burden of in secondary legislation, there is a purpose in not doing so regulation by allowing a sunset and review provision to for primary legislation where businesses want the certainty be included in any future secondary legislation. They of a long-term legislative proposal, rather than having a will enable the Government to put in place a robust and requirement that all legislation of this House—including, enduring system for tackling obsolete, burdensome or for instance, constitutional legislation—be sunsetted ineffective regulation, in line with the principles set out after a period of time. Notwithstanding the fact that in the sunsetting guidance first published in March 2011. income tax remains sunsetted every year, requiring a I am pleased to say that those principles and the Finance Bill, it would not be appropriate to have a proposed change in the clause are widely supported and sunset on every single piece of legislation. received detailed scrutiny in Committee before the summer. The changes proposed in clause 50 are permissive, broad Richard Fuller: I appreciate the Minister’s giving way in scope—intentionally so—and apply to powers to again. I know that in his solid free-market hands businesses make subordinate legislation falling within the scope of should have no fears about the way in which legislation the Interpretation Act 1978. Without qualification, this will be imposed further upon them, but he will know, would include powers in a UK Act of Parliament just as I do, that eventually, in the long-distant future, exercisable by Scottish Ministers, whether in relation to there may be a change of Government—[HON.MEMBERS: matters devolved to the Scottish Parliament or in relation “Hear, hear.”]—although maybe not in my lifetime. to matters reserved to Westminster. Does he not agree that, just as night follows day, so sunsets should be applied to all clauses? Following earlier consultation with Scottish Ministers, however, agreement was reached to exclude powers Matthew Hancock: I think that businesses would exercised by Scottish Ministers from the effect of the hope that legislation put in place for the long term will changes. Among other things, that is consistent with the remain for the long term. The sunsetting in this Bill—as convention, under the present devolution settlement, to be amended by the technical amendments that we are which has cross-party support, that the Westminster debating—is a major step forward, and the way in Parliament will not normally legislate on matters devolved which it will be implemented is the right way forward. to the Scottish Parliament, without the consent of the We are taking an ambitious and strong approach to Scottish Parliament. That seems reasonable to me. secondary legislation that will ensure that Ministers and Following further consultation with interested parties, the Government have to check that legislation is working it has become apparent that a further change is required in the way it ought to. Therefore, I would resist the to address the related issue of the powers of non-ministerial Opposition and non-Government amendments in the Scottish bodies and other persons under UK legislation. group, and I hope we have cross-party support for For example, the Registration of Births, Deaths and amendments 21 and 22. Marriages (Scotland) Act 1965 provides the registrar with various powers to make subordinate legislation in Mr Iain Wright: I rise briefly to support the Government areas of devolved competence. Equally, the Court of in this debate. As far as I am aware we have not tabled Session has powers under successive UK Acts, most any Opposition Front-Bench amendments in this group. recently the Court of Session Act 1988. Because these As I said in Committee repeatedly, we agree with the are powers to make subordinate legislation within the approach taken to sunset and review provisions, which meaning of the Interpretation Act 1978, they would are an important part of clause 50. We also set in train also be in the scope of the changes proposed in clause 50. the primary authority schemes, which will be extended The effect of the Government’s amendments is to ensure by clause 53. As for what the Minister said about that the powers exercised by non-ministerial Scottish permissive legislation—I think we are back to “Fifty bodies and other persons that fall within areas of devolved Shades of Grey” again—and a deregulatory approach competence are excluded. to free up business from unduly disproportionate and unnecessary regulation, that is something that we on Richard Fuller: I appreciate the Minister’s giving way. this side of the House certainly agree with too. I am enthralled to learn about births, deaths and marriages Amendment 21 agreed to. in Scotland—all things Scottish are important at the Amendment made: 22, page 42, line 39, at end insert— moment—but for businesses in my constituency of Bedford, ‘except to the extent that— the key question on the sunset provisions is why the (a) the power or duty is exercisable by the Scottish Ministers, Government have proposed only a “may” rather than a or “must”. What business leaders in my constituency want (b) the power or duty is exercisable by any other person within to see is a clear indication from the Government that devolved competence (within the meaning of the Scotland they intend to seek a requirement to sunset all new Act 1998).’.—(Matthew Hancock.) 423 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 424 Bill Bill 6pm Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Onwurah, Chi Proceedings interrupted (Programme Order, 16 October). Hoey, Kate Osborne, Sandra Hopkins, Kelvin Owen, Albert The Speaker put forthwith the Questions necessary for Hosie, Stewart Paisley, Ian the disposal of the business to be concluded at that time Hunt, Tristram Pearce, Teresa (Standing Order No. 83E). Irranca-Davies, Huw Perkins, Toby Jackson, Glenda Phillipson, Bridget James, Mrs Siân C. Pound, Stephen Clause 52 Jamieson, Cathy Qureshi, Yasmin Jarvis, Dan Reed, Mr Jamie COMMISSION FOR EQUALITY AND HUMAN RIGHTS Johnson, rh Alan Reeves, Rachel Amendment proposed: 56, page 43, line 27, leave out Johnson, Diana Reynolds, Emma clause 52.—(John McDonnell.) Jones, Graham Riordan, Mrs Linda Jones, Helen Robertson, Angus Question put, That the amendment be made. Jones, Mr Kevan Robinson, Mr Geoffrey The House divided: Ayes 230, Noes 299. Joyce, Eric Roy, Mr Frank Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Roy, Lindsay Division No. 81] [6 pm Keeley, Barbara Ruane, Chris Kendall, Liz Ruddock, rh Dame Joan AYES Khan, rh Sadiq Seabeck, Alison Abbott, Ms Diane Danczuk, Simon Lavery, Ian Shannon, Jim Abrahams, Debbie Darling, rh Mr Alistair Lazarowicz, Mark Sharma, Mr Virendra Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob David, Wayne Leslie, Chris Sheerman, Mr Barry Alexander, Heidi Davies, Geraint Lewis, Mr Ivan Sheridan, Jim Ali, Rushanara De Piero, Gloria Lloyd, Tony Shuker, Gavin Allen, Mr Graham Denham, rh Mr John Long, Naomi Skinner, Mr Dennis Anderson, Mr David Dobbin, Jim Love, Mr Andrew Slaughter, Mr Andy Ashworth, Jonathan Dobson, rh Frank Lucas, Caroline Smith, rh Mr Andrew Austin, Ian Docherty, Thomas Lucas, Ian Smith, Angela Bailey, Mr Adrian Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Smith, Owen Bain, Mr William Donohoe, Mr Brian H. MacShane, rh Mr Denis Spellar, rh Mr John Balls, rh Ed Doran, Mr Frank Mactaggart, Fiona Straw, rh Mr Jack Banks, Gordon Dowd, Jim Mahmood, Mr Khalid Stringer, Graham Barron, rh Mr Kevin Doyle, Gemma Mahmood, Shabana Stuart, Ms Gisela Beckett, rh Margaret Dromey, Jack Malhotra, Seema Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Begg, Dame Anne Dugher, Michael Mann, John Tami, Mark Benn, rh Hilary Durkan, Mark Marsden, Mr Gordon Thomas, Mr Gareth Benton, Mr Joe Eagle, Ms Angela McCabe, Steve Thornberry, Emily Berger, Luciana Eagle, Maria McCann, Mr Michael Timms, rh Stephen McCarthy, Kerry Betts, Mr Clive Edwards, Jonathan Trickett, Jon Blackman-Woods, Roberta Efford, Clive McClymont, Gregg Turner, Karl Blenkinsop, Tom Elliott, Julie McCrea, Dr William Twigg, Derek Blomfield, Paul Engel, Natascha McDonnell, John Umunna, Mr Chuka Blunkett, rh Mr David Esterson, Bill McFadden, rh Mr Pat Vaz, rh Keith Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Evans, Chris McGovern, Alison Brennan, Kevin Farrelly, Paul McGovern, Jim Vaz, Valerie Brown, Lyn Field, rh Mr Frank McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Walley, Joan Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Fitzpatrick, Jim McKechin, Ann Watson, Mr Tom Brown, Mr Russell Flello, Robert McKenzie, Mr Iain Watts, Mr Dave Bryant, Chris Flint, rh Caroline McKinnell, Catherine Weir, Mr Mike Buck, Ms Karen Fovargue, Yvonne Meacher, rh Mr Michael Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Burden, Richard Francis, Dr Hywel Mearns, Ian Whitehead, Dr Alan Burnham, rh Andy Gapes, Mike Michael, rh Alun Williams, Hywel Byrne, rh Mr Liam Gilmore, Sheila Miller, Andrew Williamson, Chris Campbell, Mr Alan Glass, Pat Mitchell, Austin Wilson, Phil Campbell, Mr Ronnie Glindon, Mrs Mary Moon, Mrs Madeleine Wilson, Sammy Clark, Katy Godsiff, Mr Roger Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Winnick, Mr David Clarke, rh Mr Tom Goodman, Helen Morris, Grahame M. Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Coaker, Vernon Greatrex, Tom (Easington) Wishart, Pete Coffey, Ann Green, Kate Mudie, Mr George Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Munn, Meg Connarty, Michael Griffith, Nia Wright, David Murphy, rh Mr Jim Cooper, Rosie Gwynne, Andrew Wright, Mr Iain Cooper, rh Yvette Hain, rh Mr Peter Murphy, rh Paul Corbyn, Jeremy Hamilton, Mr David Murray, Ian Tellers for the Ayes: Crausby, Mr David Hamilton, Fabian Nandy, Lisa Susan Elan Jones and Creagh, Mary Harris, Mr Tom Nash, Pamela Julie Hilling Creasy, Stella Havard, Mr Dai Cruddas, Jon Healey, rh John NOES Cryer, John Hendrick, Mark Afriyie, Adam Amess, Mr David Cunningham, Alex Hepburn, Mr Stephen Aldous, Peter Andrew, Stuart Cunningham, Mr Jim Heyes, David Alexander, rh Danny Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Dakin, Nic Hodge, rh Margaret 425 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 426 Bill Bill Bacon, Mr Richard Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jones, Andrew Pickles, rh Mr Eric Baker, Norman Eustice, George Jones, rh Mr David Pincher, Christopher Baker, Steve Evans, Graham Jones, Mr Marcus Poulter, Dr Daniel Baldry, Sir Tony Evans, Jonathan Kawczynski, Daniel Prisk, Mr Mark Baldwin, Harriett Evennett, Mr David Kelly, Chris Raab, Mr Dominic Barclay, Stephen Fabricant, Michael Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Randall, rh Mr John Baron, Mr John Fallon, rh Michael Kirby, Simon Reckless, Mark Bebb, Guto Farron, Tim Knight, rh Mr Greg Redwood, rh Mr John Beith, rh Sir Alan Featherstone, Lynne Laing, Mrs Eleanor Reid, Mr Alan Bellingham, Mr Henry Fox,rhDrLiam Lamb, Norman Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Beresford, Sir Paul Francois, rh Mr Mark Lancaster, Mark Robertson, Mr Laurence Bingham, Andrew Freeman, George Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Rogerson, Dan Binley, Mr Brian Freer, Mike Leadsom, Andrea Rosindell, Andrew Birtwistle, Gordon Fuller, Richard Lee, Jessica Rudd, Amber Blackman, Bob Gale, Sir Roger Lee, Dr Phillip Ruffley, Mr David Blackwood, Nicola Garnier, Sir Edward Lefroy, Jeremy Russell, Sir Bob Blunt, Mr Crispin Garnier, Mark Leigh, Mr Edward Rutley, David Boles, Nick Gauke, Mr David Leslie, Charlotte Sanders, Mr Adrian Bone, Mr Peter George, Andrew Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Sandys, Laura Bottomley, Sir Peter Gibb, Mr Nick Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Scott, Mr Lee Bradley, Karen Gilbert, Stephen Lloyd, Stephen Selous, Andrew Brake, rh Tom Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lopresti, Jack Shapps, rh Grant Bray, Angie Glen, John Lord, Jonathan Sharma, Alok Brazier, Mr Julian Goldsmith, Zac Loughton, Tim Shelbrooke, Alec Bridgen, Andrew Goodwill, Mr Robert Luff, Peter Shepherd, Mr Richard Brine, Steve Gove, rh Michael Lumley, Karen Simmonds, Mark Brokenshire, James Graham, Richard Main, Mrs Anne Skidmore, Chris Brooke, Annette Grant, Mrs Helen Maude, rh Mr Francis Smith, Miss Chloe Browne, Mr Jeremy Gray, Mr James Maynard, Paul Smith, Henry Bruce, Fiona Grayling, rh Chris McCartney, Jason Smith, Julian Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Green, rh Damian McCartney, Karl Smith, Sir Robert Buckland, Mr Robert Greening, rh Justine McIntosh, Miss Anne Soames, rh Nicholas Burley, Mr Aidan Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McPartland, Stephen Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Burns, Conor Griffiths, Andrew Menzies, Mark Spencer, Mr Mark Burns, rh Mr Simon Gummer, Ben Mercer, Patrick Stephenson, Andrew Burrowes, Mr David Gyimah, Mr Sam Metcalfe, Stephen Stevenson, John Burstow, rh Paul Hague, rh Mr William Mills, Nigel Stewart, Bob Burt, Lorely Halfon, Robert Milton, Anne Streeter, Mr Gary Byles, Dan Hames, Duncan Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stride, Mel Cairns, Alun Hammond, rh Mr Philip Moore, rh Michael Stuart, Mr Graham Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hancock, Matthew Mordaunt, Penny Stunell, rh Andrew Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hands, Greg Morgan, Nicky Sturdy, Julian Carmichael, Neil Harper, Mr Mark Morris, Anne Marie Swales, Ian Cash, Mr William Harris, Rebecca Morris, James Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Chope, Mr Christopher Hart, Simon Mosley, Stephen Swinson, Jo Clappison, Mr James Harvey, Sir Nick Mowat, David Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Clark, rh Greg Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mulholland, Greg Thurso, John Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hayes, Mr John Mundell, rh David Timpson, Mr Edward Clegg, rh Mr Nick Heald, Oliver Munt, Tessa Tomlinson, Justin Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Heath, Mr David Murray, Sheryll Tredinnick, David Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hemming, John Murrison, Dr Andrew Turner, Mr Andrew Collins, Damian Henderson, Gordon Neill, Robert Tyrie, Mr Andrew Colvile, Oliver Hendry, Charles Newmark, Mr Brooks Uppal, Paul Cox, Mr Geoffrey Herbert, rh Nick Newton, Sarah Vaizey, Mr Edward Crabb, Stephen Hinds, Damian Nokes, Caroline Vickers, Martin Crockart, Mike Hoban, Mr Mark Norman, Jesse Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Crouch, Tracey Hollingbery, George Nuttall, Mr David Walker, Mr Charles Davey, rh Mr Edward Hollobone, Mr Philip O’Brien, Mr Stephen Walker, Mr Robin Davies, David T. C. Holloway, Mr Adam Offord, Dr Matthew Wallace, Mr Ben (Monmouth) Horwood, Martin Ollerenshaw, Eric Walter, Mr Robert Davies, Glyn Howarth, Sir Gerald Opperman, Guy Ward, Mr David Davies, Philip Howell, John Osborne, rh Mr George Watkinson, Angela de Bois, Nick Hughes, rh Simon Ottaway, Richard Webb, Steve Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Huhne, rh Chris Paice, rh Sir James Wharton, James Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Huppert, Dr Julian Parish, Neil Wheeler, Heather Dorries, Nadine Hurd, Mr Nick Patel, Priti White, Chris Doyle-Price, Jackie Jackson, Mr Stewart Pawsey, Mark Whittaker, Craig Drax, Richard James, Margot Penning, Mike Whittingdale, Mr John Duddridge, James Javid, Sajid Penrose, John Wiggin, Bill Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jenkin, Mr Bernard Percy, Andrew Williams, Mr Mark Ellis, Michael Johnson, Gareth Perry, Claire Williams, Roger Ellison, Jane Johnson, Joseph Phillips, Stephen Williams, Stephen 427 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 428 Bill Bill Williamson, Gavin Young, rh Sir George I fully understand the ruling that you gave this afternoon, Willott, Jenny Mr Speaker, as you are not in charge of the quality of Wilson, Mr Rob Tellers for the Noes: answers, but I do not think that there has ever in the Wright, Jeremy Mr Robert Syms and history of the House been an occasion when a Prime Wright, Simon Mark Hunter Minister has said that he or she would—full stop—not reply to any question. I think you have ruled, and Question accordingly negatived. previous Speakers have ruled on many occasions previously, that when a Minister refuses to reply to a written Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): On a point of order, question, they must answer it, not least because the Mr. Speaker. ministerial code, written by the Prime Minister, says: Mr Speaker: We will come to the hon. Gentleman’s “Ministers should be as open as possible with Parliament and point of order. I am saving him up. It would be a pity to the public, refusing to provide information only when disclosure would not be in the public interest”. waste him prematurely. That, of course, is incorporated in a motion of the House, resolved on 19 March 1997. I would have thought Clause 40 that expressly saying that one will not reply to an individual Member of the House is an affront to the CARTEL OFFENCE House; in particular, it is an affront to my constituents. Amendments made: 18, page 37, line 20, at end insert— It should not be countenanced, surely. ‘(6) After section 188A (as inserted by subsection (5) above) insert— Mr Speaker: I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman “188B Defences to commission of cartel offence for his point of order, to which I make two points in response. First, with reference to the ministerial code, I (1) In a case where the arrangements would (operating as the parties intend) affect the supply in the United Kingdom of a simply remind the House that responsibility for it rests product or service, it is a defence for an individual charged with with the Prime Minister, and it seems unlikely that the an offence under section 188(1) to show that, at the time of the Prime Minister will be minded to investigate himself. I making of the agreement, he or she did not intend that the nature say that not in a spirit of levity, but because I think it is of the arrangements would be concealed from customers at all a pertinent observation in practical terms. Secondly, I times before they enter into agreements for the supply to them of am sorry to disappoint the hon. Gentleman, and I do the product or service. not intend any discourtesy to him, as I take the hon. (2) It is a defence for an individual charged with an offence Gentleman very seriously—almost as seriously as he under section 188(1) to show that, at the time of the making of takes himself. [Laughter.] I do take him extremely the agreement, he or she did not intend that the nature of the seriously and I have a very high respect for him, as he arrangements would be concealed from the CMA. knows. What I would say at this stage is that this is (3) It is a defence for an individual charged with an offence clearly a highly controversial matter, on which I do not under section 188(1) to show that, before the making of the feel I can rule off the cuff now. That is not to duck it; I agreement, he or she took reasonable steps to ensure that the nature of the arrangements would be disclosed to professional will reflect on the very important point that he has legal advisers for the purposes of obtaining advice about them made and I will come back to him and, if appropriate, before their making or (as the case may be) their implementation.”’. to the House. I hope that that is helpful. Amendment 19, page 37, line 20, at end insert— Third Reading ‘( ) After section 190 of the 2002 Act insert— Queen’s consent signified. “190A Cartel offence: prosecution guidance (1) The CMA must prepare and publish guidance on the 6.17 pm principles to be applied in determining, in any case, whether Jo Swinson: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read proceedings for an offence under section 188(1) should be the Third time. instituted. We have spent the past two days carefully scrutinising (2) The CMA may at any time issue revised or new guidance. this Bill. Right hon. and hon. Members have clearly (3) Guidance published by the CMA under this section is to be invested a lot of time examining the detail, and rightly published in such manner as it considers appropriate. so. We used all of our time on the first day debating the (4) In preparing guidance under this section the CMA must proposed new measures, and I thank the Opposition for consult— ensuring that they received thorough scrutiny. (a) the Director of the Serious Fraud Office; Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab) (b) the Lord Advocate; and rose— (c) such other persons as it considers appropriate.”’. Amendment 20, page 37, line 21, leave out ‘this Jo Swinson: I give way to my Scottish colleague. section’ and insert ‘subsections (1) to (6)’.—(Jo Swinson.) Thomas Docherty: It is my understanding that it is Chris Bryant: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am custom and practice for the Secretary of State to move not sure how to describe my relationship with the Prime Third Reading. Where is he today? Minister, but it is quite on and off. On 25 June, he said that he was going to refuse to answer any of my questions Jo Swinson: I am sure that my colleague the Secretary until I apologised to the House—even though I had of State has a very busy diary, but he may well be already apologised to the House. On 27 June, just two making an appearance— days later, he did reply to a question, and he did the same in September, but today he is back to not replying Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): Parliament is not to questions. important enough— 429 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 430 Bill Bill Jo Swinson: Parliament is certainly important enough. The move to a low-carbon economy is a big challenge I hope not to disappoint the hon. Member for Dunfermline and, indeed, a big opportunity for this country. Some and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) in my speaking on analysis suggests a demand for more than £200 billion Third Reading. As he will know, my right hon. Friend of investment in the next decade to develop the necessary the Secretary of State spoke on Second Reading and innovative technologies. The challenge is even greater has been very involved in this Bill, so I am sure that I given how new those markets are and the long-term will be able to deal with the issues raised. nature of returns on green infrastructure investment, which may deter private sector investors. The coalition Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): In view of the fact Government are meeting that challenge squarely by that the sunset provisions have not been discussed because establishing the world’s first green investment bank and of the programme motion—[Interruption.] They may we have made significant progress. have been discussed in the past, but amendments tabled As we were able to announce earlier this afternoon, by my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford (Richard we have today made an important step forward in the Fuller) were not reached. That is the position. In that UK’s transition to a green economy with confirmation context, will the Minister be good enough to explain of the state aid approval that will allow the bank to how it will be possible to bypass European legislation make commercial investments. That is a significant under these arrangements? achievement and means that the bank is firmly on track to be fully operational in the next few weeks. Jo Swinson: I am sorry to disappoint my hon. Friend The Government are deeply aware of the need to do by correcting him, but these issues were discussed— all we can to support business expansion and job creation. The Public Bill Committee heard from business Mr Cash: Not this afternoon. representatives that reform of the employment tribunal system remains a top priority for their members and that the measures in the Bill will increase the confidence Jo Swinson: Yes, they were. In fact, the hon. Member of business to recruit. Our reforms will encourage parties for Bedford (Richard Fuller) intervened on my hon. to work together to resolve their disputes outside the Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Skills when adversarial, stressful and often costly tribunal system, that discussion was taking place—[Interruption.] I suggest which will mean that employers will have the confidence to the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash) that had he to take on and manage staff. wanted to raise those points, he could have been present for the debate on Report. Good leadership and governance of companies is crucial and there should be no reward for failure. Our I thank the Opposition for ensuring that the measures reforms to directors’ pay, which are supported by both that we have added to the Bill have received thorough business and investors, will mean greater transparency scrutiny.That detailed consideration follows earlier scrutiny and more power for shareholders to hold companies to in the Public Bill Committee and I extend particular account while allowing genuine success to be rewarded. thanks to its members, led for the Opposition by the A free and open market place is key to a growing hon. Members for Hartlepool (Mr Wright), for Edinburgh economy. Pressure from competitive markets helps South (Ian Murray) and for Newcastle upon Tyne businesses to boost productivity and that benefits Central (Chi Onwurah). consumers. The Government are helping by setting up the new competition and markets authority to provide a Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): When does single, strong voice in this area. It will have a duty to the Minister think the first loans will be made by the promote competition for the benefit of consumers. green investment bank under this legislation? The Bill will also strengthen powers to tackle cartels. Cartels damage the interests of business and consumers Jo Swinson: As my right hon. Friend will know, the alike and I am very grateful to the Public Bill Committee— Government have made £3 million available through again, I thank its members—for its considered debate the green investment bank, which has already started to on the issue. As a result of the amendments tabled in allocate that money. Some £200 million has been allocated Committee by Opposition Members, the then Minister, and the first money has been not just allocated but my hon. Friend the Member for North Norfolk (Norman spent. We know that that institution will certainly be a Lamb), made it clear that we would reflect on the points great success. made with a view to improving the provisions. As a At the end of our proceedings in Committee, the hon. result, we have refined how we propose to tackle the Member for Hartlepool observed: problem of cartels, but in a way that still delivers the key “The Committee has been serious about the need to scrutinise objective of ensuring that we have effective powers an important Bill and about the manner of its deliberations and against them. questioning”.––[Official Report, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Unnecessary regulation stifles growth and strangles Public Bill Committee, 17 July 2012; c. 728.] innovation. In our red tape challenge, we are examining The Bill is important. It is also part of a wider Government swathes of regulation and scrapping those that are no strategy to promote growth, support business and create longer needed. The Bill supports that work by ensuring jobs. Legislation alone cannot guarantee and generate that any new secondary legislation can be time-limited. economic activity, but it can help to provide the right The CBI hailed that step as the ″big prize for business″. conditions for growth and that is what this Bill does. It We are making specific reforms, including removing the contains a suite of measures that will lift unnecessary right to claim compensation from employers for breach burdens from business and ensure that markets are fair of most statutory health and safety duties unless employers and dynamic to inspire the confidence of business and have been negligent. We are also streamlining the duties consumers alike. of the Equality and Human Rights Commission. Let me 431 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 432 Bill Bill [Jo Swinson] who served on the Bill Committee for their hard work. The Committee stage was something of a marathon, state again for the record that we greatly value the work given the rag-bag of often very different measures contained that the commission does and that the streamlining will in the Bill, but although we have not always agreed with in no way reduce its impact. The Government are the Government, it was good to hear the Minister agree committed to tackling the barriers to equal opportunity that Opposition Members have thoroughly scrutinised and to promoting economic growth. Unnecessary and the Bill and done so in good spirit and with some complicated regulation restricts our ability to achieve humour, too—I understand that “Fifty Shades of Grey”, that aim. The repeals in the Bill play a part in tackling One Direction and the Stone Roses have all been mentioned the red tape and bureaucracy that holds businesses during consideration. Despite all the good work, however, back. Ministers did not accept any of our amendments in Ensuring that our copyright laws are fit for the modern Committee, or pledge to return on Report with acceptable age is critical to the growth of the UK’s creative alternatives. industries—one of our most successful export sectors. In the hope that we might be able to reach agreement It is also important for those industries that can make on Report, I wrote to the Secretary of State at the end use of materials that may be in digital or other form. We of last month setting out our position, highlighting the have worked closely with stakeholders on those provisions parts of the Bill we agree with and those we disagree and will continue to do so. The Bill will help to ensure with. The Secretary of State—I shall quote, as he is not that we strike the right balance on rewards for creative here—replied saying: endeavour, sanctions for unlawful use and greater freedoms “I believe that we support the same goals of promoting growth when an originator cannot be identified. and reducing unnecessary burdens on business and I note that you are supportive in principle of a number of measures in the Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): Bill.” I congratulate Ministers on their painstaking work to Indeed, it is true. We support in principle a number of identify barriers to growth and enterprise. Is the Minister measures in the Bill, such as those relating to the green as disappointed as I am that the Front-Bench spokesmen investment bank, improving the competition regime for the Labour party, whose policies contributed so and extending the primary authority scheme that we much to our present position, have learned nothing and established in Government. There is no doubt about still oppose sensible, practical measures to get the economy that. going, add jobs and ensure that we get people out of the The Secretary of State also referred in his letter to the despair of unemployment and into the sunlit uplands of changes that he has since made to his original proposals well-paid jobs? contained in the Bill on copyright. I am pleased that he has listened to what we had to say on that and that in Jo Swinson: In the spirit of consensus, I will say that, some respects he has U-turned, although I understand on some issues, Opposition Front Benchers have said that several stakeholders remain concerned. that they will work with the Government, but I am disappointed that, on others, they have not done so or Although we think the Government should go further recognised what we are doing in the Bill. The Bill is in their reforms relating to directors’ remuneration, in good for business and good for consumers, and therefore principle we do not object to what they have done so good for the UK economy. I commend it to the House. far. However, despite our best efforts, we have not been able to reach agreement on the other aspects of the Bill to which we strongly object and which the Government 6.27 pm refuse to remove from it. Mr Umunna: Let me say first, meaning no disrespect There are certain red lines that the Bill crosses that to the Minister, with whom I have enjoyed debating the Labour party is not prepared to cross. We want to during the Bill’s passage, that I find it quite extraordinary see enterprise flourish, but in a society where people’s that for this—the Department’s flagship Bill—the Secretary rights are respected. We want to see our economy grow, of State is not present. and I hope and expect the next quarter’s GDP figure, On Second Reading, the Opposition tabled a reasoned which will be released next week, to be a positive amendment stating that the Bill was a missed opportunity number after three quarters of contraction, but growth to provide a strategy for economic growth and that it cannot be at the expense of the basic protections that contained inadequate measures to improve business people enjoy in this country. In the name of growth confidence, investment and competiveness. That remains part 2 of the Bill will drastically reduce people’s rights our view on Third Reading. In Committee, as a constructive at work and part 5, along with other Government measures, Opposition, we tabled amendments designed to support takes us along the slippery slope to the abolition of the business, including measures to ensure that the green Equality and Human Rights Commission. This is wrong. investment bank can be a strong and transparent catalyst Many of the measures in part 2 find their inspiration for green growth; to improve the competition framework; in the report of the Prime Minister’s employment law and better to empower shareholders in relation to directors’ adviser, Adrian Beecroft. By his own admission in the remuneration. Throughout that process, we drew on public evidence sessions on the Bill, Mr Beecroft said our discussions with business organisations and other that his findings were based on conversations and not stakeholders, as well as the evidence given by witnesses on a statistically valid sample of people. Of course, the during the evidence sessions. Government are implementing many of his measures. At this point, I add my thanks to my hon. Friends the For example, having already increased the service Members for Hartlepool (Mr Wright), for Newcastle requirement to claim for unfair dismissal in the employment upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah), and for Edinburgh tribunal, by reducing compensatory awards for unfair South (Ian Murray) and all the Opposition Members dismissal the Government seek in the Bill to water 433 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 434 Bill Bill down further the rights of all employees in this country, “this is not some meaningless bureaucratic red tape, but the very as we heard today, most of whom are not members of a protections that are in place to protect staff from predatory trade union. sexual advances by third parties.” As I said on Second Reading, reducing compensatory In conclusion, the unemployment figures released awards for unfair dismissal in particular will impact on today are very welcome, but more than 2.5 million those in middle income occupations. They, like others in people are still out of work. In my constituency more lower income occupations, are already facing the biggest than 11 people are chasing every Jobcentre Plus vacancy. squeeze on their living standards in a generation under Long-term unemployment has risen and the number of this Government, and weakening their rights at work young people out of work and claiming benefits for will only add to the worry and stress that working more than a year has gone up yet again, and we are still people are under. Mr Beecroft, I read, suggested that in a double-dip recession, one of only two G20 countries the Secretary of State, who is not here, is a socialist. in that position. That situation will not be resolved by Well, I can tell him that the Secretary of State has done taking away people’s fundamental rights; it will be his best to prove otherwise in the Bill. resolved by getting demand back into the economy. That is what creates jobs, and that should have been the Mr Graham Stuart: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, sole focus of an enterprise Bill. It is a shame that that is who is being most generous. Does he feel that the not the case with this Bill. Instead, we have seen today compensation currently available is exactly right or does not the focus on kick-starting the recovery and laying a he think it should be increased further? He must recognise platform for long-term and sustainable growth, but the that there is a balance to be struck between looking final nail in the coffin of any claim the Government after the interests of employees and not causing employers could make to marrying competence with compassion. to avoid taking people on for fear of the costs. That That is why we will vote against the Bill tonight. balance must be struck and the hon. Gentleman obviously thinks the figure should be at the upper end. Does he Several hon. Members rose— want to increase the current levels? Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I Mr Umunna: With respect, I observe for the record point out that at least six Members wish to speak in the that the hon. Gentleman has not been present for most debate. of the debate on the Bill today, yesterday or at any time. If he had been here earlier, he would have heard me 6.37 pm make much the same observation as he has just made—that there is a balance to be struck. We disagree with changing Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): I want to the current regime in relation to the compensatory mention the Osborne estate, since no amendment was award. I would not say that any system is perfect. For tabled until the Bill was on Report. Osborne house was example, in relation to the unfair dismissal regime and of course built by Prince Albert and lived in by Queen the way that it interacts with the tribunals, yes, we have Victoria until 1901. Before I was elected in 2001, its entertained the Government’s Underhill review because long-standing use as a convalescent home had already we understand that there are some issues. I am not sure come to an end, but better accommodation, more modern that any system would be perfect, but we disagree with individual rooms and higher quality facilities were all what is proposed in the Bill and the way in which it will needed and they were all too costly. Although the King change the balance. There is obviously a disagreement Edward VII convalescent home was much loved by the on that. people of East Cowes, those who worked there and With regard to part 5, which relates to the Equality many people on the island and further afield knew that and Human Rights Commission, and the new clauses its days had been numbered for some time. relating to the Equality Act 2010, the Secretary of State The part of Osborne house that was used as a on Second Reading referred to the measures relating to convalescent home was restricted by dint of the Osborne the commission as “legislative tidying-up.” They are Estate Acts of 1902 and 1914 and was to be used for the nothing of the sort, as I think he knows. He likes to benefit of service people, their families and senior civil pose as the opposition within on so many matters but servants. That severely limited the chances of attracting waves through the more extreme impulses of his coalition those who could make use of the home. When the partners. current Government were elected in 2010, I knew that To compound matters, last week the Government we would have an opportunity to bring unused parts of tabled an amendment to the Bill providing for the that beautiful and historic building into service once again. repeal of the provisions in the 2010 Act relating to English Heritage has been working hard to find new liability for third-party harassment of employees, which and innovative uses for the buildings, and I have worked was one of Adrian Beecroft’s proposals. It was a classic with it to obtain the support of local people. We have example of the Secretary of State trying to face both held two public meetings, one within the house itself ways at once. When questioned on Second Reading and, subsequently, one in East Cowes town hall, which about the Government’s intentions by my hon. Friend between 40 and 50 people attended. Although no firm the Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green), plans were put forward, it was clear that most people he assured the House that he had no intention of want the Osborne estate to be regenerated and think implementing that Beecroft proposal. Then, out of the that it is a waste that large parts of it remain unused. blue and at the last minute, he presents us with a new The limitations on the use of the former convalescent clause seeking to do just that. home will be lifted to a certain extent by the new Samantha Mangwana, a senior employment lawyer clause 11, and I welcome that. at the respected law firm Russell, Jones and Walker I am grateful for the work done by English Heritage—in Solicitors, asked in today’s Financial Times what signal particular, Mark Pemberton, who has worked with me that sends out. She said over many years—and my hon. Friend the Member for 435 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 436 Bill Bill [Mr Andrew Turner] law is in complete confusion. They cannot even legislate effectively to control estate agents. That is the stage that Weston-super-Mare (John Penrose), who has visited the we have reached with this Bill, and that is why I will house and grounds to see for himself the challenges and oppose it. opportunities offered there. I am grateful to the people of the island, who have worked so hard and assiduously Several hon. Members rose— to ensure that Osborne house, the jewel in the island’s crown—indeed, the jewel in the nation’s crown—will Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I ask have a suitable role that recognises its historic past and for contributions to be short and sweet. looks forward to a unique and exciting future. I have been pleased to support the amendment and I am now 6.44 pm happy to support the Bill’s Third Reading.

6.40 pm Julian Smith: I support the Bill, which backs risk-takers across Britain—the 4 million businesses with fewer than John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): It is 10 employees, accounting for 7 million jobs. Most of important when we pass legislation in this House that these businesses are run by people earning less than the we take into account our duty as employers of the staff average wage. who will be implementing the legislation. This legislation will abolish the Office of Fair Trading and the Competition Despite what Labour says about regulation, it is Commission, which will be brought together in one causing those business owners and entrepreneurs a problem. body.In the past, legislation—TUPE—has been introduced To continue to get job results like today’s, we have to do to ensure that those staff are protected, but TUPE more to give those owners confidence to take on more applies only to those staff who are transferred from the staff. The Bill’s measures—tribunal fees, reducing public sector into the private sector. Therefore, to cover compensation for unfair dismissal, settlement agreements the situation where there are transfers within the public and the slight rebalancing from employee to employer—will sector, there was an agreement under the previous give many entrepreneurs the power and the confidence Government—a Cabinet Office agreement of principles to take on new staff. The Bill also has measures that will that was inherited, and supported, by this Government— be difficult and challenging for business, such as equal that recommended that where there were transfers between pay orders and board votes, which demonstrates that public sector bodies there would be placed in legislation this Government will not accept bad business behaviour. a commitment that TUPE would be applied. That has Under Labour, business in Britain was being hit by not been included in this Bill. It contains a reference to six new regulations every day. There was a relentless similar conditions to TUPE, but that does not give the focus on job protection rather than job creation; poor guarantees that the staff are expecting; in fact, it jeopardises oversight of the pay of business boards; and appalling some of the benefits that have accrued to them over a comparative performance on board diversity and on period of time. equal pay issues. This Government back the risk-takers, I send the message to the other place that Members are on the side of the entrepreneur while protecting of this House and of the other place have a responsibility rights, and are challenging the worst excesses of business for the staff whom we employ to implement legislation. that went unchecked for 13 years. Labour is for excessive Their views should be regarded—their trade unions job protection; we are for job creation. I pay tribute to have made this point to Government and it has been the excellent two new Ministers and I am sure that their ignored—and they should be protected. I hope that an work will ensure that our job figures continue to get amendment will be tabled in the other House that gives better for months and years to come. this protection to the staff. This is an extremely significant Bill. It undermines 6.46 pm our health and safety regime and undermines the Mr Anderson: I had the privilege of serving on the employment rights that have been built up over generations, Committee and I have been present during the House’s and it means that bad employers will be able to sack, consideration of the Bill over the past two days. Nothing pressurise, bully and victimise staff with impunity. that we have heard has been evidence-based. We have The Equalities and Human Rights Commission, and heard anecdotes, impressions, perceptions, feelings and the legislation that we enacted in 2006 to ensure that it conversations. During a Committee evidence session, I was effective, have had cross-party support, and I thought asked Adrian Beecroft where his empirical evidence that that would be maintained even by this Government. was, and his answer—this is in the Official Report— However, this Bill, in addition to the 60% cuts in its was, “Um.” That is how little evidence he has. budget and the 70% cut in staff, now undermines the There has been nothing new in the past few days to commission’s legal foundations. In effect, as my hon. change that perception, and why is that? Because the Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna) said, Chancellor’s fingerprints are all over this Bill. The part-time this is leading towards the abolition of the body and Chancellor, part-time political strategist has told people therefore undermining equalities work in this country. to sell their rights to get shares, and employers are now What really sticks in my craw is the removal of the duty able to tell people to sell their rights so that they can placed on the commission to promote equality for sack them without any worries. But there are worries people with disabilities and to prevent discrimination and we have heard them today. When asked whether against them. It reflects badly on the Government if people who volunteer to go would be able to claim this is the direction in which they are going. jobseeker’s allowance and whether those with mortgage The Bill also demonstrates the Government’s absolute protection would be affected, the Government’s Front- incompetence. We are now in a situation where copyright Bench representatives had not even thought of it. They 437 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 438 Bill Bill had to run to the officials’ Box to get an answer, because The Bill is called the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform they do not live in the real world. We also heard some Bill, but I have seen nothing in it that is very enterprising, crass comments about health and safety yesterday. There nothing that will grow businesses, nothing that will take were anecdotes about a bottle of bleach in a cupboard this country out of the double-dip recession that was and the Minister made comments about school trips created in Downing street, and nothing that will stop and health and safety. They have absolutely no idea the Government borrowing more and more money just what it is like in the real world. to pay for the cost of their cuts. What I have seen is a The Secretary of Sate should be present. I think that Bill that removes rights for ordinary working people, the reason why he is not is that he is ashamed of this takes a big stride backwards on equality, takes a leap Bill, because he does not agree with what is being done backwards on health and safety, and makes it easier to in his name. He has gone from being the sage of sack people. That will increase job insecurity, harm Twickenham to being the stooge of Westminster. He is work-force morale and productivity, harm consumer the invisible man in this place—we do not know where confidence and, ultimately, harm the economy. he is. The Government do not seem to live in the real Members should read today’s Daily Mirror, which world, where it is already lamentably easy to sack includes a quote from Jimmy Savile’s assistant, who workers and where discrimination is still rife. Instead of worked for him for 32 years. When he sacked her, he removing rights, they should be helping every employer told her: to be a good employer, with good advice and support. “Today’s today, tomorrow’s tomorrow, I’ve got a train to That would make us more competitive and help this catch.” country to thrive. The Bill is a lost opportunity and an exercise in turning back the clock. It has no answers for Under this Bill, that will become the norm for employers our economy and it should be absolutely rejected. in this country. They will be able to dismiss their employees at the wave of a hand. I say to Government Members, particularly the Liberal Democrats, who should know 6.51 pm better, that Jimmy Savile would be proud of them Richard Fuller: Enterprise and regulatory reform, tonight. part of the title of the Bill, are words to bring succour to those who work in the engine room of the British 6.48 pm economy—words that can take a thousand ideas for a Mr Redwood: The Bill contains provisions for a new business, which have been discussed over a pint or framework to allow the UK Green Investment Bank to sketched out on paper, and transform them into job-making, report to Ministers and to this House. I say to the wealth-creating vehicles of growth. Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and The anticipation for the Bill is almost tangible, but I Skills, the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire fear that it will fall short of fulfilling the hopeful (Jo Swinson) that several of us will take a close interest expectations. Where is the rolling back of the myriad in the bank. We hope that, when she implements the fees and charges that are blithely imposed on businesses; provisions, she will put in place the necessary procedures where is the relief for shopkeepers from the sky-high so that we can all see how well the bank is doing. It is rateable values set at the peak of Labour’s boom-cum-bust; particularly important that she implements rules for the and where is the implementation of our policy to roll bank, because the Government now have an £80 billion back job-destroying EU regulation? funding for lending scheme, a £50 billion national The Bill’s proceedings should have started with a infrastructure financing scheme, a £20 billion small rallying call to our businesses that this Government are businesses special loans scheme, and they are doing unambiguously on their side; a statement cherishing the another round of quantitative easing worth £50 billion. principles of the free market as the most liberating force That represents £200 billion-worth of loans, guarantees for social good; a determination to embrace, defend and special money for the banking sector, which could and expand the global free market that has lifted hundreds cover quite a lot of the projects in which the green of millions of people from poverty, to which too many investment bank might be interested. were consigned by the misguided socialist policies of I hope the Minister will ensure that there is no the past; a rebuttal of the insidious assumption, which unnecessary competition in the public sector for privileged too often underlies Government intervention, that, left moneys now that we have so many different strands. to their own devices, people who run their own business Now that there is so much money in the big schemes, cannot be trusted. That assumption should be replaced the green investment bank can relax about some of the by a presumption of trust that in starting and growing biggest projects, because they could clearly be taken businesses, people are doing the essential work of a care of by the other schemes. Ministers need to think grateful nation, burdened by its debts and seeking the through how all the schemes fit together and how they wealth to maintain its cherished public services. affect the green investment bank. They must ensure that Capitalism delivers by its results what all rival systems anyone who seeks money for investment projects in this can only promise on paper. That is a truth that the Bill field has a clear view of which is the appropriate mechanism. should have heralded as clearly and unequivocally as President Obama did just last night: 6.50 pm “I believe the free enterprise system is the greatest engine of Julie Hilling: I spoke about the Bill in the debate on prosperity the world has ever known.” the Queen’s Speech, I spoke on Second Reading and I We need to spread access to capital for people to start have sat through the last two days of debate. I am their own businesses, so that it is as available in Bradford, grateful to have a few moments to speak now. However, Burnley, Bath and Bedford as it is in London, , my opinion has not changed. Cambridge and Edinburgh. We need to create a front-foot 439 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 440 Bill Bill [Richard Fuller] My right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) talked about the green investment bank nation, a nation of entrepreneurs. It must be as much a and listed the Government’s various measures to support part of our culture for people to want to own their own credit. We are adding a business bank, which may well business as to want to own their own home. We need a sweep up some of those other measures. He asked about people with the willingness to start, the ambition to policy overlap, and I point out that thus far, the funds grow and the courage to try again. We need a local put into the green investment bank have been for projects community spirit that expects, encourages and supports with a maximum size of £20 million. That shows the those endeavours. scope of the bank so far. The Secretary of State is at the John Cass lecture on 6.54 pm social mobility. Government Members are in favour of social mobility, but Opposition Members argue that the Katy Clark: This Bill is a mishmash of ideologically Secretary of State should not be giving a lecture on it. driven measures that have no evidence base. As Opposition Members have repeatedly said, it is Beecroft by the back Mr Umunna: Will the Minister give way? door. There is no evidence whatever, anywhere in the world, that taking people’s employment rights away Matthew Hancock: I have two minutes, but I will give from them leads to growth. There is no evidence base way. for the view that taking away our health and safety protections, which have been fought for by generation Mr Umunna: The Minister referred to President Obama’s after generation, will lead to job creation. remarks yesterday. Where in those remarks did he talk The backdrop to the Bill is, of course, the Government’s about the need to water down people’s rights at work to red tape challenge and their belief that deregulation will promote growth? in some way lead to enterprise and a better society. Some Opposition Members have always fought against Matthew Hancock: Making it easier for people to the Government’s measures, but many Government have settlement agreements, ensuring that health and Members have always believed that they represent the safety legislation is implemented reasonably, helping type of society that they wish to see. It is shameful that the operation of listed buildings policy and improving the Liberal Democrats are providing a face to those the operation of the Equality and Human Rights measures, and I believe that at the next general election Commission will all help the free market system, which we will see the result and Liberal Democrat Members is the engine of prosperity. will be thrown out by the British people. The Government’s record is clear. We now know that when we arrived in office, the structural deficit was 6.55 pm £73 billion a year. Since then, however, 1 million new Matthew Hancock: We have had a wide-ranging debate jobs have been created in the private sector. I did not over two days on Report and now on Third Reading. notice any Opposition Members welcoming that fact. We have heard speeches by the hon. Members for There are 170,000 fewer people on benefits, and the Bolton West (Julie Hilling), for Hayes and Harlington deficit is down by a quarter. (John McDonnell), for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) and for We have introduced measures on competition, on North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) that have railed making it easier to employ people, on a green investment against enterprise and against the Bill. bank, on improvements to the Estate Agents Act and By contrast, my hon. Friends the Members for Bedford on health and safety. Members of the House are inspired (Richard Fuller) and for Skipton and Ripon (Julian and motivated to enter politics for many different reasons, Smith) have argued passionately for enterprise, business and one of the best of those is to work at creating and jobs. I cannot quite match their eloquence or the jobs and help employers to create jobs. It looks as if the power of their arguments about the ability of the free Opposition will oppose this measure, and in doing so market system to create jobs and build prosperity not they will show that they are anti-business, anti-enterprise only in this country but around the world. I am disappointed and anti-jobs. They have only one option—more to find out that President Obama has said something borrowing—whereas the coalition Government are pro- that it will now be impossible for us to say without enterprise, pro-business and pro-jobs. We need jobs for reference being made to his saying it—that the free people who want to make their lives better, and I enterprise system is the greatest force for progress that commend the Bill to the House. the world has ever seen. Question put, That the Bill be read the Third time. The House divided: Ayes 290, Noes 228. Mr Umunna: Will the Minister give way? Division No. 82] [7 pm Matthew Hancock: No, I will not. I have only a few AYES minutes. [HON.MEMBERS: “Go on.”] I will come on to the hon. Gentleman’s comments. Afriyie, Adam Baldwin, Harriett My hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight Aldous, Peter Barker, rh Gregory Alexander, rh Danny Baron, Mr John (Mr Turner) spoke passionately about his constituency Amess, Mr David Bebb, Guto and the need to remove from primary legislation restrictions Andrew, Stuart Beith, rh Sir Alan on Osborne house. It is interesting that in this single Bill Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Bellingham, Mr Henry we are amending the Osborne Estate Act 1902, the Bacon, Mr Richard Beresford, Sir Paul Interpretation Act 1978, the Estate Agents Act 1979 Baker, Steve Bingham, Andrew and many more Acts, to promote enterprise. Baldry, Sir Tony Binley, Mr Brian 441 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 442 Bill Bill Birtwistle, Gordon Garnier, Mark Lopresti, Jack Sanders, Mr Adrian Blackman, Bob Gauke, Mr David Lord, Jonathan Sandys, Laura Blackwood, Nicola George, Andrew Loughton, Tim Scott, Mr Lee Boles, Nick Gibb, Mr Nick Lumley, Karen Selous, Andrew Bone, Mr Peter Gilbert, Stephen Main, Mrs Anne Shapps, rh Grant Bottomley, Sir Peter Glen, John Maude, rh Mr Francis Sharma, Alok Bradley, Karen Goldsmith, Zac Maynard, Paul Shelbrooke, Alec Brake, rh Tom Goodwill, Mr Robert McCartney, Jason Shepherd, Mr Richard Bray, Angie Gove, rh Michael McCartney, Karl Skidmore, Chris Brazier, Mr Julian Graham, Richard McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Miss Chloe Bridgen, Andrew Grant, Mrs Helen McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Henry Brine, Steve Gray, Mr James McPartland, Stephen Smith, Julian Brokenshire, James Grayling, rh Chris Menzies, Mark Smith, Sir Robert Brooke, Annette Green, rh Damian Metcalfe, Stephen Soames, rh Nicholas Browne, Mr Jeremy Greening, rh Justine Miller, rh Maria Soubry, Anna Bruce, Fiona Griffiths, Andrew Mills, Nigel Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Gummer, Ben Milton, Anne Spencer, Mr Mark Buckland, Mr Robert Gyimah, Mr Sam Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stephenson, Andrew Burley, Mr Aidan Halfon, Robert Moore, rh Michael Stevenson, John Burns, Conor Hames, Duncan Mordaunt, Penny Stewart, Bob Burns, rh Mr Simon Hammond, rh Mr Philip Morgan, Nicky Streeter, Mr Gary Burrowes, Mr David Hancock, Matthew Morris, Anne Marie Stride, Mel Burstow, rh Paul Hands, Greg Morris, James Stuart, Mr Graham Burt, Alistair Harper, Mr Mark Mosley, Stephen Stunell, rh Andrew Burt, Lorely Harrington, Richard Mowat, David Sturdy, Julian Byles, Dan Harris, Rebecca Mulholland, Greg Swales, Ian Cairns, Alun Hart, Simon Mundell, rh David Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Harvey, Sir Nick Munt, Tessa Swinson, Jo Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hayes, Mr John Murray, Sheryll Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Carmichael, Neil Heald, Oliver Murrison, Dr Andrew Teather, Sarah Carswell, Mr Douglas Heath, Mr David Neill, Robert Thurso, John Cash, Mr William Hemming, John Newmark, Mr Brooks Timpson, Mr Edward Chope, Mr Christopher Henderson, Gordon Newton, Sarah Tomlinson, Justin Clappison, Mr James Hendry, Charles Nokes, Caroline Tredinnick, David Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Herbert, rh Nick Norman, Jesse Turner, Mr Andrew Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hinds, Damian Nuttall, Mr David Tyrie, Mr Andrew Collins, Damian Hoban, Mr Mark O’Brien, Mr Stephen Uppal, Paul Colvile, Oliver Hollingbery, George Offord, Dr Matthew Vaizey, Mr Edward Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hollobone, Mr Philip Ollerenshaw, Eric Vara, Mr Shailesh Crabb, Stephen Holloway, Mr Adam Opperman, Guy Vickers, Martin Crockart, Mike Horwood, Martin Ottaway, Richard Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Crouch, Tracey Howell, John Paice, rh Sir James Walker, Mr Charles Davey, rh Mr Edward Hughes, rh Simon Parish, Neil Walker, Mr Robin Davies, David T. C. Huhne, rh Chris Patel, Priti Walter, Mr Robert (Monmouth) Huppert, Dr Julian Pawsey, Mark Davies, Glyn Hurd, Mr Nick Penning, Mike Ward, Mr David Davies, Philip Jackson, Mr Stewart Penrose, John Watkinson, Angela de Bois, Nick James, Margot Percy, Andrew Webb, Steve Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Jenkin, Mr Bernard Perry, Claire Wharton, James Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Johnson, Gareth Phillips, Stephen Wheeler, Heather Dorries, Nadine Johnson, Joseph Pincher, Christopher White, Chris Doyle-Price, Jackie Jones, Andrew Poulter, Dr Daniel Whittaker, Craig Drax, Richard Jones, rh Mr David Prisk, Mr Mark Whittingdale, Mr John Duddridge, James Jones, Mr Marcus Raab, Mr Dominic Wiggin, Bill Duncan, rh Mr Alan Kawczynski, Daniel Randall, rh Mr John Williams, Mr Mark Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Kelly, Chris Reckless, Mark Williams, Roger Ellis, Michael Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Redwood, rh Mr John Williams, Stephen Ellison, Jane Kirby, Simon Rees-Mogg, Jacob Williamson, Gavin Ellwood, Mr Tobias Knight, rh Mr Greg Reid, Mr Alan Willott, Jenny Eustice, George Lamb, Norman Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Wilson, Mr Rob Evans, Jonathan Lancaster, Mark Robertson, Mr Laurence Wright, Jeremy Rogerson, Dan Evennett, Mr David Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Wright, Simon Rosindell, Andrew Fabricant, Michael Leadsom, Andrea Young, rh Sir George Farron, Tim Lee, Jessica Rudd, Amber Featherstone, Lynne Lee, Dr Phillip Ruffley, Mr David Tellers for the Ayes: Fox,rhDrLiam Lefroy, Jeremy Russell, Sir Bob Mark Hunter and Francois, rh Mr Mark Leigh, Mr Edward Rutley, David Mr Robert Syms Freeman, George Leslie, Charlotte Freer, Mike Letwin, rh Mr Oliver NOES Fuller, Richard Lewis, Brandon Abbott, Ms Diane Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Gale, Sir Roger Lewis, Dr Julian Abrahams, Debbie Alexander, Heidi Garnier, Sir Edward Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian 443 Enterprise and Regulatory Reform 17 OCTOBER 2012 444 Bill Ali, Rushanara Evans, Chris McDonnell, John Shannon, Jim Allen, Mr Graham Farrelly, Paul McFadden, rh Mr Pat Sharma, Mr Virendra Anderson, Mr David Field, rh Mr Frank McGovern, Alison Sheridan, Jim Ashworth, Jonathan Fitzpatrick, Jim McGovern, Jim Shuker, Gavin Austin, Ian Flello, Robert McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Skinner, Mr Dennis Bailey, Mr Adrian Flint, rh Caroline McKechin, Ann Slaughter, Mr Andy Bain, Mr William Fovargue, Yvonne McKenzie, Mr Iain Smith, rh Mr Andrew Balls, rh Ed Francis, Dr Hywel McKinnell, Catherine Smith, Angela Banks, Gordon Gapes, Mike Meacher, rh Mr Michael Smith, Owen Barron, rh Mr Kevin Gilmore, Sheila Mearns, Ian Spellar, rh Mr John Beckett, rh Margaret Glass, Pat Michael, rh Alun Straw, rh Mr Jack Begg, Dame Anne Glindon, Mrs Mary Miller, Andrew Stringer, Graham Benn, rh Hilary Godsiff, Mr Roger Mitchell, Austin Stuart, Ms Gisela Benton, Mr Joe Goggins, rh Paul Moon, Mrs Madeleine Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Berger, Luciana Goodman, Helen Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Tami, Mark Betts, Mr Clive Greatrex, Tom Morris, Grahame M. Thomas, Mr Gareth Blackman-Woods, Roberta Green, Kate (Easington) Thornberry, Emily Blears, rh Hazel Griffith, Nia Mudie, Mr George Timms, rh Stephen Blenkinsop, Tom Gwynne, Andrew Munn, Meg Trickett, Jon Blomfield, Paul Hain, rh Mr Peter Murphy, rh Mr Jim Turner, Karl Blunkett, rh Mr David Hamilton, Mr David Murphy, rh Paul Twigg, Derek Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Hamilton, Fabian Murray, Ian Umunna, Mr Chuka Brennan, Kevin Harris, Mr Tom Nandy, Lisa Vaz, rh Keith Brown, Lyn Havard, Mr Dai Nash, Pamela Vaz, Valerie Brown, Mr Russell Healey, rh John Onwurah, Chi Walley, Joan Bryant, Chris Hendrick, Mark Osborne, Sandra Watson, Mr Tom Buck, Ms Karen Hepburn, Mr Stephen Owen, Albert Watts, Mr Dave Burden, Richard Heyes, David Paisley, Ian Weir, Mr Mike Burnham, rh Andy Hillier, Meg Pearce, Teresa Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hodge, rh Margaret Perkins, Toby Whitehead, Dr Alan Campbell, Mr Alan Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Phillipson, Bridget Williamson, Chris Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hoey, Kate Pound, Stephen Wilson, Phil Clark, Katy Hopkins, Kelvin Reed, Mr Jamie Wilson, Sammy Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hosie, Stewart Reeves, Rachel Winnick, Mr David Coaker, Vernon Howarth, rh Mr George Reynolds, Emma Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Coffey, Ann Hunt, Tristram Riordan, Mrs Linda Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Connarty, Michael Irranca-Davies, Huw Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Wright, David Cooper, Rosie Jackson, Glenda Roy, Mr Frank Wright, Mr Iain Cooper, rh Yvette James, Mrs Siân C. Roy, Lindsay Corbyn, Jeremy Jamieson, Cathy Ruane, Chris Tellers for the Noes: Crausby, Mr David Jarvis, Dan Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Julie Hilling and Creagh, Mary Johnson, rh Alan Seabeck, Alison Susan Elan Jones Creasy, Stella Johnson, Diana Cruddas, Jon Jones, Graham Question accordingly agreed to. Cryer, John Jones, Helen Cunningham, Alex Jones, Mr Kevan Bill read the Third time and passed. Cunningham, Mr Jim Joyce, Eric Dakin, Nic Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Business without Debate Danczuk, Simon Keeley, Barbara Darling, rh Mr Alistair Kendall, Liz David, Wayne Khan, rh Sadiq DELEGATED LEGISLATION Davies, Geraint Lavery, Ian Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing De Piero, Gloria Lazarowicz, Mark Order No. 118(6)), Denham, rh Mr John Leslie, Chris Dobbin, Jim Lewis, Mr Ivan SOCIAL SECURITY Dobson, rh Frank Lloyd, Tony That the draft Housing Benefit (Amendment) Regulations Docherty, Thomas Long, Naomi 2012, which were laid before this House on 28 June, be approved.— Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Love, Mr Andrew (Anne Milton.) Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lucas, Caroline The Deputy Speaker’s opinion as to the decision of the Doran, Mr Frank Lucas, Ian Question being challenged, the Division was deferred until Dowd, Jim MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Wednesday 24 October (Standing Order No. 41A). Doyle, Gemma MacShane, rh Mr Denis Dromey, Jack Mactaggart, Fiona Dugher, Michael Mahmood, Mr Khalid PETITIONS Durkan, Mark Mahmood, Shabana Closure of HSBC in Shildon, County Durham Eagle, Ms Angela Malhotra, Seema Eagle, Maria Mann, John 7.14 pm Edwards, Jonathan Marsden, Mr Gordon Efford, Clive McCabe, Steve Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): I wish to Elliott, Julie McCann, Mr Michael present a petition from the people of Shildon against Engel, Natascha McCarthy, Kerry the closure of the HSBC bank in Shildon. HSBC is Esterson, Bill McClymont, Gregg closing 60 branches across the country. It says it wants 445 Business without Debate 17 OCTOBER 2012 446 to rebuild trust, but it is abandoning 10,000 people, Oral Health Services leaving them without a bank, and 800 local businesses. I am today writing to HSBC to ask it to put in £10,000 to Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House extend the local credit union and provide at least some do now adjourn.—(Anne Milton.) facilities for local people. Following is the full text of the petition: 7.16 pm [The Petition of residents of Shildon, County Durham, Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): I am Declares that the Petitioners support the proposal to pleased to have this opportunity to raise the question of keep the HSBC branch in Shildon open; that it is a vital oral health in the UK. Oral health is given far too little service for local businesses, residents and visitors to this attention, in terms of what practitioners can bring to busy town; further that there are over 10,000 residents in improving a population’s general health, as well as how Shildon, and if HSBC were to close, we would be left with it can be used to prevent the development of disease. no banking facilities, causing problems for local businesses Rather like opticians, our dentists are undervalued, in and residents who are unable to make the 3 mile journey terms of what they can bring to the table to help to to the next nearest HSBC branch. improve our nation’s health. Perhaps it is because dentists The Petitioners therefore request that the House of are not the most popular group in society—although I Commons urges the Treasury to encourage HSBC to suspect that they are outdone by politicians. Why is keep their Shildon branch open. going to the dentist not seen as a pleasurable experience? And the Petitioners remain, etc.] I will leave that to others to judge, but although going [P001122] to the dentist may not be pleasurable, it is absolutely essential, and good practice starts right at the beginning, Working Tax Credits with the emergence of milk teeth. Here in the UK we can be proud of many of our 7.15 pm successes in achieving a good quality of oral health. Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East The UK is one of the top-performing countries for oral Cleveland) (Lab): The petition states: health in Europe, but there is still much we can do. In The Petition of residents of Middlesbrough and Redcar and fact, a recent joint report by Wrigley and GlaxoSmithKline Cleveland, suggests that Britons love their teeth and take very good Declares that changes to tax credits will plunge thousands of care of them compared with our European neighbours. working families into poverty. More Britons have more of their natural teeth than The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons people in any other European country, and since the urges the Government to reverse these changes; to provide real 1980s Britain has cut its decayed, missing and filled incentives for people to work; introduces measures to clamp teeth score by two thirds. That is an impressive step, but down on tax avoidances; and ensures that the Government honours there is certainly still room for improvement—I should its commitment to end child poverty in accordance with the Child explain, Mr Speaker, that Wrigley is based in my Poverty Act 2010. constituency. And the Petitioners remain, etc. I recently attended the launch of the report and [P001124] listened with great interest to Professor Ken Eaton talking in detail about the work that has been going on across Europe looking at patterns of dental health. Other speakers included Dr Nigel Carter from the British Dental Health Foundation and Juliette Reeves, a dental hygienist and nutritionist with over 30 years’ experience. All the speakers set out clearly the importance of dental checks in the early identification of a number of diseases, particularly cancers, which we know are growing in prevalence, mouth cancers in particular. There has been a 48% increase in mouth cancers in the last 12 years. Early identification can make all the difference, in terms of the treatment required and the survivability of the patient. Dental health problems can also be indicative of other diseases, such as diabetes. All those issues are easily picked up during a dental health check. One of the good things in the new contract for NHS dentistry is that it recognises the importance of prevention. This will be challenging for some in the profession to implement, as they will have to change the way in which they work, but most dentists will learn to accept that prevention should be a priority. The report’s evidence showed that although the majority of us in the UK keep to the suggested practice of brushing twice a day, only half of us brush for two minutes or longer—the rest of us just whizz around and hope that is sufficient—and that almost two thirds of us eat or drink between brushing and going to bed at 447 Oral Health Services17 OCTOBER 2012 Oral Health Services 448

[Alison Seabeck] Also, one of the first major campaigns that I was involved with when I was first elected to Parliament was night. There is clearly space to improve our personal to get a dental school sited in Plymouth. I remember oral hygiene practices, and there is scope for policy and fighting tooth and nail—the pun is intended—for that, campaigns to achieve that. alongside my former colleague, Linda Gilroy, and experts such as Sir John Tooke. It was during that campaign Personal oral hygiene is essential. Dental disease is that I began to understand just how important good completely preventable, and so, therefore, are those dental health is, and how essential it is that we train our occasionally uncomfortable visits to the dentist when dentists and technicians to the highest standards. My invasive treatment is necessary. These diseases constitute subsequent involvement in the all-party parliamentary a significant public health problem across the UK and group on dentistry, which is chaired so well by the hon. Europe. I cannot stress strongly enough that prevention Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford), has is the key, and it needs to be encouraged. Many will say maintained my interest in the subject. that the treatment is expensive. Yes, it can be, but when set against the money saved by regular dental checks The groundbreaking training offered by Peninsula in reducing the likelihood of more complex treatment, the Plymouth closely links the trainee dentists and technicians expense looks like good value for families. The prevention to local communities that have historically had very low of debilitating diseases will certainly reduce the social levels of contact with dentists, and it is making a and economic costs for the country and the individual. difference. This was one of the strong points of the case we made for a dental school in Plymouth. Curative dental care is a significant economic burden across Europe, with spending close to ¤9 billion. In the We have an excellent community development team UK, the cost is substantial. An estimated 0.5% of gross at the dental school who ensure that the training includes domestic product was spent on oral health care services opportunities to go out into these communities, taking in 2010, and that figure is rising. Expenditure on treatment dentistry to “places it has never gone before”. Some of for oral diseases often exceeds that for other diseases, the projects included highlighting the impact of high-sugar including cancer, heart disease, stroke and dementia, drinks for professional rugby players at Plymouth Albion; yet the simple fact is that the causes of most oral making mouth guards for them; offering oral health diseases in the UK are preventable through cost-effective advice to local schools; and letting children enjoy and measures that would ultimately save the taxpayer money. play in a clinical environment to make it less scary. The Brushing, flossing, using mouthwash and chewing sugar-free dental school also works alongside experts to support gum—a much-maligned practice that is actually quite people with drug and alcohol abuse issues, and is certainly effective—could all be more effectively promoted to doing some excellent work around oral cancer and help to keep dental costs down in Britain, and the smoking cessation with young adults and teenagers. sharing of good practice should be encouraged. There continues to be concern about access to dentists in some parts of the country. In Plymouth, we have Policy needs to be designed and implemented to good months and bad months. Since the start of 2012, improve research into oral health promtion. There is however, improvements have been made, with an additional currently a lack of comparable data across Europe, 6,500 NHS places coming on stream in our city. This is although the report goes some considerable way towards possible in part because the graduate dentists from the addressing that problem. To tackle the burden of oral dental school are staying in the area—yet another reason disease we also need to consider taking action in various why we so wanted a dental school in Plymouth. I was ways, some of which have been suggested in the report pleased that the then Labour Government recognised on the state of oral health in Europe, which I hope the the importance of dental training—unlike the last Tory Minister has had an opportunity to read. The report Government, who closed dental schools. suggests the need to address increasing oral health inequalities, improve the data and knowledge base and There continues to be an issue about the cost of support the development of the dental work force. dental care and treatment for many families, particularly in the recession. That cost is still not easily accessible for We should be proud that Britain is a high achiever some families. when it comes to oral health in Europe, but there is certainly room for improvement. Despite our successes, Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the hon. oral diseases remain a burden for much of the population, Lady for giving way and for bringing this matter to the and the economic impacts are significant. There needs House for discussion. Oral health is a big issue right to be a greater focus on prevention rather than treatment, across the whole of the United Kingdom. In Northern and improvements in education and awareness are also Ireland, some plans have been mooted to introduce needed. fluoridation in the water. That has been resisted by the I am proud that we have the Peninsula dental school Northern Ireland Assembly and resisted by the population in Plymouth. I was asked by my local media why I had of Northern Ireland. A new consultation process has chosen oral health as the subject for this debate when so started, but it will again be resisted. Does the hon. Lady many other issues could have been raised. That was a feel that the best way of addressing tooth decay is, as good question. Having the Under-Secretary of State for she has already indicated, by regular brushing and diet, Health, the hon. Member for Central Suffolk and North and not by fluoridation of the water? Ipswich (Dr Poulter), here to respond is of course a good reason. There is also the small question of the Alison Seabeck: I know that the hon. Gentleman feels ballot for Adjournment debates. MPs often put in for a strongly about this issue. I feel equally strongly about it, number of debates over the Session, and we cannot tell but I disagree wholeheartedly with him, not least because which one will be lucky enough to come out of the a lot of toothpaste has fluoride in it in any case. Neither ballot. I was lucky on this occasion. of my daughters, now 30 and 26—they will probably 449 Oral Health Services17 OCTOBER 2012 Oral Health Services 450 kill me for revealing their ages—have any fillings, and and about those that may be planned. I invite him to they have lived in an area with full fluoridation. They come down to Plymouth, visit the dental school and have had no side-effects at all either. look at some of the outreach work that it is doing in deprived communities, because I think that there are Jim Shannon: The hon. Lady is generous in allowing some very good lessons to be learnt. me to intervene again. There are statistics and information We should all speak to and lobby our health showing that fluoridation of water leads to osteoporosis commissioners to ensure that those who are involved in and other diseases. Is it not important to be careful the new health commissioning system understand what before pursuing a policy that could affect people’s health dentists can contribute to an overall reduction in poor negatively rather than help them? health and the early identification of health problems. I hope that the Minister will note that plea. Alison Seabeck: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s concerns, and I am sure the population in his area will continue to have that debate, but I am convinced by the 7.31 pm data and information that I have seen that, on balance, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health fluoridation of the water is a good thing. I was intending (Dr Daniel Poulter): I congratulate the hon. Member for to touch on it later, but I shall now skip around it. Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) on securing the I will come back to the issue of families and the cost debate. I do not think that she needs to justify her of dental care. Brushing teeth from an early age is pursuit of this issue to her local press, because it is an certainly something we should all be doing; it has no important issue, and we should all pay tribute to her significant cost and has positive outcomes. Dental treatment long campaign. The need to improve dental health is can be expensive, so a dental contract that focuses on often underestimated, and it is not discussed enough in prevention, works with people identified as having a the context of the health service. I am sure that the hon. higher risk of dental decay and takes a more risk-based Lady will continue to campaign strongly, as a member approach—patient by patient—could lead to some families of the all-party group, in the Chamber and in her spending less on their visits to the dentist each year. constituency, where she supports the medical and dental That would obviously be a good thing for those families. schools. I should be delighted to take her up on her Those people who have no visible issues of tooth decay—an invitation: I intend to go to Plymouth in the near future, increasing number in the UK, thanks in part to and I hope to be able to visit the dental school then. fluoridation—do not need a service focused on drill and The hon. Lady rightly observed that, in health care fill. They need a system that rewards dentists for the generally, we do not talk enough about the fact that preventive work they do, which should lead overall to prevention is much better than cure. In many parts of less expensive treatments. the health service, payment systems have not properly The wider use of expert dental hygienists to monitor rewarded staff in line with the recognition that good and advise patients as well as to carry out treatments health care is about preventing people from becoming could have a significant benefit, although there will be unwell in the first place, rather than picking up the some dental practices—these issues have been raised—that pieces when they have developed cancer or other problems. are not currently suitable and do not have enough space The new dental contract makes it easier to identify key to accommodate the additional clinics. Some of the prevention issues. It focuses on the desirability of spotting proposed changes could be problematic for them. I early symptoms of ill health—in this instance, oral ill would welcome an update from the Minister about health—rather than spotting them much too late, when whether he is picking up concerns from some of the a patient’s cancer is already well advanced. pilots as to whether or not this is an issue. The result of The hon. Lady also referred to important public the contract pilots will be crucial when it comes to health concerns about smoking and alcohol consumption. deciding whether the patient, as well as the dentist, She was right to draw attention to the problem of binge benefits from the change in emphasis. The wider health drinking, not just among young men but, nowadays, benefits of preventive work will also save the NHS increasingly among young women, and to the effects of money, if other health problems are caught early.Preventive excessive smoking and drinking on oral health. The work can save lives, which is obviously hugely important. links between high alcohol consumption and smoking I urge the Minister to consider whether, as well as the and a number of cancers—particularly throat cancer pilot schemes, further public information campaigns and other cancers in the mouth—are well established. I are needed to make the general public aware of the am optimistic about the possibility that the new dental growing number of oral cancers that are linked to contract and that important focus in preventive care smoking and alcohol consumption—particularly among will enable us to identify cancers, and those who are at young women—and the importance of brushing babies’ risk of developing them, much earlier, rather than waiting first teeth. It should be emphasised that dental care can to treat people later when they are very unwell. The be preventive, rather than something that we all have to health service in general needs to be geared up in order suffer when we have toothache. to do that better, particularly in the context of oral I know that companies such as Wrigley run their own health. campaigns linked to their products and support wider The hon. Lady also raised the issue of the European campaigns such as Keeping Britain Smiling, but, given platform on oral health. I believe that the all-party the massive cost to the NHS of poor dental health and group hosted a reception on that recently, praising its linked ill health, the Government also have a role to work. All the work we have been doing in this country play. I hope that the Minister will not only take on has been rightly highlighted in that report, and I shall board the concerns raised by me and by others, but will discuss that a little later. It is worth dwelling on how tell me about the steps that are currently being taken, over the past 20 or 30 years, under consecutive 451 Oral Health Services17 OCTOBER 2012 Oral Health Services 452

[Dr Daniel Poulter] used well in some parts of the country—in stroke care and other areas of preventive care, for example, where a Governments, we have had a record of improving oral more holistic, joined-up approach to what happens health and improving access to dentistry, particularly in before hospital admission and afterwards in rehabilitation the past few years. If we are taking oral health seriously, are equally as important as immediate treatment in a it is important that we improve access, and we are hospital setting. beginning to do that well. Elements of that contract are being tested in 70 practices As the hon. Lady knows, in 1973 the average 12-year-old at the moment, and we are rolling them out to an in England and Wales had five decayed, missing or additional 20 to 25 practices as part of the pilot to make filled teeth, but by 2003 the UK average was 0.7 fillings. sure that that contract is fit for purpose. When the So we have made great strides in the past 30 or 40 years. further results from those are available, I will be happy That improvement was partially due to the introduction to share them with the hon. Lady, so that we can ensure of fluoride toothpaste in the 1970s—that brings me to that we design the best contract. the issues raised by the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) in his interventions—and to the hard Alison Seabeck: Perhaps it might be appropriate to work of dentists up and down the country. They, along share some of that information with the all-party group, with dental hygienists, highlighted the importance of rather than one to one. good tooth care and preventive measures through effective tooth brushing using toothpaste. Dr Poulter: Absolutely, and I would be very happy to do so. The hon. Lady’s commendable focus on this area Adult oral health has improved in a similarly impressive of health care would, of course, lead me to wish to manner. In 1968, the first adult dental health survey share that information with her, but of course I would found that 37% of the adult population of England and be delighted to share it with the all-party group, too. Wales had no remaining natural teeth, but the 2009 The work done by a number of all-party groups, including survey found that the proportion had dropped to 6%. hers, helps to ensure that many of these important Again, that is a mark of how this country is taking this issues are never forgotten and that they are kept at the issue seriously, and we must continue to do so. Access to forefront of the minds of our fellow parliamentarians. NHS dentistry has grown steadily, with more than 1 million more patients having been seen by NHS dentists Of course, as the hon. Lady rightly highlighted, there since May 2010. are some inequalities across the country and, as we know, among different socio-economic groups. Improving The hon. Lady rightly highlighted the European platform access to care will play an important part in addressing on oral health report and outlined some of its those health care inequalities. I draw the attention of recommendations. I have read the report and it rightly the House to our progress in preventive care, in addition identifies the promotion of good oral health as one of to the new contract. The number of adults being treated the most significant health care challenges facing EU with fluoride varnish, which is one of the most effective countries. However, as she said, England’s oral health preventive treatments available, rose by 43% last year. compares well with all the countries surveyed in the Among children the figure was 64%. By investing in report, and we are especially pleased that it highlighted preventive treatment, we are ensuring that future generations the “Delivering Better Oral Health” toolkit, which was will enjoy good oral health throughout their lives. In a guide to prevention in practice published jointly by addition to promoting the application of fluoride varnishes, the Department of Health and the British Association we will seek to promote the learning of lessons from the for the Study of Community Dentistry as an example of best performing areas of the NHS and to work with the good practice. Notwithstanding the fact that we have devolved Administrations and local and regional made good progress historically and that the European government to iron out inequalities across different platform on oral health report highlighted the good geographical areas. It is important that in all areas of things we do in this country, we must never be complacent. health care, including dentistry and oral health care, we We must continue to ensure that we drive further learn from things that have gone well so that we can roll improvements and reduce the inequalities in access and out that good practice elsewhere and ensure that it is in oral health that still exist and are very real in some learned from. We should also be open and honest when parts of the country. things have not gone so well, so that we can learn The hon. Lady raised the issue of the new dental lessons and improve services for the benefit of patients. contract. The reforms of the contract focus on a number The hon. Lady mentioned the Peninsula dental school of things, including improving access to care. There is and rightly stated that it was opened in 2007, under the an important focus on preventive dentistry—preventing previous Government, as a joint venture between Plymouth bad things from happening to people and on picking up and Exeter universities. The school has been a great things early. As she is aware, the new contract that we success. I know that she has been a great advocate for it are introducing will be based on registration, capitation and is rightly very proud of what it has achieved and of and quality, rather than a more payment-by-results what it is doing in Plymouth. Earlier this year, the two system. Such an approach will allow more focus to be universities announced changes in how the school is put on those preventive measures, rather than on the run. Exeter will now operate a medical school of its more reactive measures that a payment-by-results system own while the teaching of both medical and dental tends to deliver. The new contract will replace the studies will continue in Plymouth. I know that it is existing model that rewards units of dental activity important that her constituents are reassured about rather than taking a more holistic view of what is good that and that as we have a successful dental school we for the patient. We can learn from this approach as a should recognise that and support its continuing function. good model of health care as we develop tariffs throughout Many of the changes were purely administrative, rather the health care system. Such a model is already being than to front-line services. 453 Oral Health Services17 OCTOBER 2012 Oral Health Services 454

I acknowledge the concerns expressed by the hon. and putting in place the measures needed to continue Lady tonight and elsewhere, but both universities have the improvements in this country’s oral health. Access is stated that the split will improve the administration of rising, rates of decay have fallen historically and continue medical education in the south-west and we expect the to fall, and we are piloting a new contract designed changes to have no negative impact on the dental school. further to increase access and improve oral health, I know that she will ensure that the voices of the dental focusing on prevention as a key part of our efforts to school and her constituents are heard loudly both locally improve people’s oral health and general health, and to and in Parliament and I am happy to support her in keep them well. We are committed to ensuring that that. NHS dentistry is available to those who want it, and Let me finally make a few points about dentistry in improving oral health is at the heart of what dentistry the south-west of England. The hon. Lady talked about does. NHS dentistry in her constituency, including the case of Of course challenges remain. We must make sure that an individual constituent who had problems accessing pilot studies are effective and that we listen to any it. We know that we have further to go in improving concerns that emerge from them, so that we can improve access, but the Government have made good strides in the new contract accordingly. The fundamental focus is that direction, as did the previous Government. We on moving away from a reactive service to a preventive have made significant progress and the latest NHS care service. That will both improve oral health by figures show that since March 2010 the number of reducing the incidence of cancer, and give children the people who accessed an NHS dentist in the south-west best start in life by engendering good dental health over the previous 24 months has increased by almost habits through the involvement of hygienists and other 150,000. That is a strong step in the right direction. practitioners. Our aim is to move dental care on to a In Devon, £500,000 was invested in four practices in more stable footing. This Government are committed March to provide a further 6,500 dental places, which to continuing the progress that consecutive Governments will become available over the next 12 months. I understand have made in widening patients’ access to dental services, that at the same time a further two practices have particularly those patients who have had difficulty accessing increased their capacity and will provide an additional such services in the past. 3,000 places over the next 18 months. We are continuing Question put and agreed to. to ensure that we widen access to dental services in the south-west. In the south-west, as in the rest of England, we are 7.45 pm making vital improvements to access to NHS dentistry House adjourned. 455 17 OCTOBER 2012 Deferred Divisions 456

Deferred Divisions Heath, Mr David Morris, James Heaton-Harris, Chris Mosley, Stephen Hemming, John Mowat, David PUBLIC BODIES Henderson, Gordon Mulholland, Greg That the draft Public Bodies (Abolition of the Commission for Hendry, Charles Mundell, rh David Rural Communities) Order 2012, which was laid before this Herbert, rh Nick Munt, Tessa House on 16 May, be approved. Hermon, Lady Murray, Sheryll The House divided: Ayes 301, Noes 211. Hinds, Damian Neill, Robert Division No. 74] Hoban, Mr Mark Newmark, Mr Brooks Hollingbery, George Newton, Sarah Hollobone, Mr Philip Nokes, Caroline AYES Howell, John Norman, Jesse Aldous, Peter Davies, Glyn Hughes, rh Simon Nuttall, Mr David Amess, Mr David Davies, Philip Huhne, rh Chris O’Brien, Mr Stephen Andrew, Stuart de Bois, Nick Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Offord, Dr Matthew Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hunter, Mark Ollerenshaw, Eric Baker, Steve Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Huppert, Dr Julian Opperman, Guy Baldry, Sir Tony Dorries, Nadine Hurd, Mr Nick Osborne, rh Mr George Baldwin, Harriett Doyle-Price, Jackie Jackson, Mr Stewart Ottaway, Richard Baron, Mr John Drax, Richard James, Margot Paice, rh Sir James Bebb, Guto Duddridge, James Javid, Sajid Paisley, Ian Beith, rh Sir Alan Duncan, rh Mr Alan Jenkin, Mr Bernard Parish, Neil Bellingham, Mr Henry Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Johnson, Gareth Patel, Priti Berry, Jake Dunne, Mr Philip Johnson, Joseph Pawsey, Mark Bingham, Andrew Ellis, Michael Jones, Andrew Penning, Mike Birtwistle, Gordon Ellison, Jane Jones, rh Mr David Penrose, John Blackman, Bob Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jones, Mr Marcus Percy, Andrew Blackwood, Nicola Elphicke, Charlie Kawczynski, Daniel Phillips, Stephen Boles, Nick Eustice, George Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Pickles, rh Mr Eric Bone, Mr Peter Evans, Graham Kirby, Simon Pincher, Christopher Bradley, Karen Evans, Jonathan Knight, rh Mr Greg Prisk, Mr Mark Brake, rh Tom Evennett, Mr David Laing, Mrs Eleanor Raab, Mr Dominic Bray, Angie Fabricant, Michael Lamb, Norman Randall, rh Mr John Brazier, Mr Julian Fallon, rh Michael Lancaster, Mark Reckless, Mark Bridgen, Andrew Farron, Tim Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Redwood, rh Mr John Brine, Steve Featherstone, Lynne Laws, rh Mr David Rees-Mogg, Jacob Brokenshire, James Field, Mark Leadsom, Andrea Reid, Mr Alan Brooke, Annette Fox,rhDrLiam Lee, Jessica Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Browne, Mr Jeremy Francois, rh Mr Mark Lefroy, Jeremy Robertson, Mr Laurence Bruce, Fiona Freeman, George Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rogerson, Dan Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Freer, Mike Lewis, Dr Julian Rosindell, Andrew Buckland, Mr Robert Fuller, Richard Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rudd, Amber Burley, Mr Aidan Garnier, Sir Edward Lilley, rh Mr Peter Ruffley, Mr David Burns, Conor Garnier, Mark Long, Naomi Russell, Sir Bob Burns, rh Mr Simon Gauke, Mr David Lopresti, Jack Rutley, David Burrowes, Mr David Gibb, Mr Nick Lord, Jonathan Sanders, Mr Adrian Burstow, rh Paul Gilbert, Stephen Loughton, Tim Sandys, Laura Burt, Lorely Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Luff, Peter Scott, Mr Lee Byles, Dan Glen, John Lumley, Karen Selous, Andrew Cable, rh Vince Goldsmith, Zac Macleod, Mary Shannon, Jim Cairns, Alun Goodman, Helen Main, Mrs Anne Shapps, rh Grant Cameron, rh Mr David Goodwill, Mr Robert Maude, rh Mr Francis Sharma, Alok Campbell, Mr Gregory Gove, rh Michael May, rh Mrs Theresa Shelbrooke, Alec Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Graham, Richard Maynard, Paul Shepherd, Mr Richard Carmichael, Neil Gray, Mr James McCartney, Jason Simmonds, Mark Carswell, Mr Douglas Grayling, rh Chris McCartney, Karl Simpson, David Cash, Mr William Green, rh Damian McCrea, Dr William Smith, Henry Chishti, Rehman Greening, rh Justine McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Julian Clappison, Mr James Griffiths, Andrew McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Sir Robert Clark, rh Greg Gyimah, Mr Sam McPartland, Stephen Soubry, Anna Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Halfon, Robert McVey, Esther Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Clegg, rh Mr Nick Hames, Duncan Menzies, Mark Spencer, Mr Mark Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hammond, rh Mr Philip Metcalfe, Stephen Stephenson, Andrew Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hancock, Matthew Miller, rh Maria Stevenson, John Collins, Damian Hands, Greg Mills, Nigel Stewart, Bob Colvile, Oliver Harper, Mr Mark Milton, Anne Stewart, Rory Crabb, Stephen Harrington, Richard Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Streeter, Mr Gary Crockart, Mike Harris, Rebecca Moore, rh Michael Stride, Mel Crouch, Tracey Hart, Simon Mordaunt, Penny Stunell, rh Andrew Davey, rh Mr Edward Harvey, Sir Nick Morgan, Nicky Sturdy, Julian Davies, David T. C. Heald, Oliver Morris, Anne Marie Swales, Ian (Monmouth) Healey, rh John Morris, David Swayne, rh Mr Desmond 457 Deferred Divisions17 OCTOBER 2012 Deferred Divisions 458

Swinson, Jo Weatherley, Mike Hodge, rh Margaret Munn, Meg Syms, Mr Robert Wharton, James Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Murray, Ian Tami, Mark Wheeler, Heather Hood, Mr Jim Nandy, Lisa Tapsell, rh Sir Peter White, Chris Hopkins, Kelvin Nash, Pamela Thurso, John Whittaker, Craig Hunt, Tristram Onwurah, Chi Timpson, Mr Edward Whittingdale, Mr John Irranca-Davies, Huw Owen, Albert Tomlinson, Justin Wiggin, Bill James, Mrs Siân C. Pearce, Teresa Tredinnick, David Willetts, rh Mr David Jamieson, Cathy Perkins, Toby Truss, Elizabeth Williams, Mr Mark Jarvis, Dan Phillipson, Bridget Tyrie, Mr Andrew Williams, Roger Johnson, rh Alan Pound, Stephen Uppal, Paul Williams, Stephen Johnson, Diana Qureshi, Yasmin Vaizey, Mr Edward Williamson, Gavin Jones, Graham Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Vara, Mr Shailesh Willott, Jenny Jones, Helen Reeves, Rachel Vickers, Martin Wilson, Mr Rob Jones, Mr Kevan Reynolds, Emma Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Wilson, Sammy Jones, Susan Elan Riordan, Mrs Linda Walker, Mr Charles Wollaston, Dr Sarah Joyce, Eric Ritchie, Ms Margaret Walker, Mr Robin Wright, Jeremy Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Wallace, Mr Ben Wright, Simon Keeley, Barbara Roy, Mr Frank Walter, Mr Robert Young, rh Sir George Kendall, Liz Roy, Lindsay Khan, rh Sadiq Ruane, Chris NOES Lavery, Ian Ruddock, rh Dame Lazarowicz, Mark Joan Abrahams, Debbie Darling, rh Mr Alistair Leslie, Chris Seabeck, Alison Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob David, Wayne Lewis, Mr Ivan Sharma, Mr Virendra Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Davidson, Mr Ian Lloyd, Tony Sheerman, Mr Barry Alexander, Heidi Davies, Geraint Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Sheridan, Jim Ali, Rushanara De Piero, Gloria Love, Mr Andrew Shuker, Gavin Allen, Mr Graham Denham, rh Mr John Lucas, Caroline Skinner, Mr Dennis Anderson, Mr David Dobbin, Jim Lucas, Ian Slaughter, Mr Andy Ashworth, Jonathan Docherty, Thomas MacShane, rh Mr Denis Smith, Angela Bailey, Mr Adrian Donohoe, Mr Brian Mactaggart, Fiona Smith, Nick Bain, Mr William H. Mahmood, Shabana Smith, Owen Balls, rh Ed Doran, Mr Frank Malhotra, Seema Spellar, rh Mr John Banks, Gordon Dowd, Jim Mann, John Straw, rh Mr Jack Barron, rh Mr Kevin Doyle, Gemma Marsden, Mr Gordon Stringer, Graham Beckett, rh Margaret Dromey, Jack McCabe, Steve Stuart, Ms Gisela Begg, Dame Anne Dugher, Michael McCann, Mr Michael Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Benn, rh Hilary Durkan, Mark McCarthy, Kerry Thornberry, Emily Benton, Mr Joe Eagle, Ms Angela McClymont, Gregg Timms, rh Stephen Berger, Luciana Eagle, Maria McDonnell, John Trickett, Jon Betts, Mr Clive Edwards, Jonathan McGovern, Alison Turner, Karl Blackman-Woods, Roberta Efford, Clive McGovern, Jim Twigg, Derek Blenkinsop, Tom Elliott, Julie McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Umunna, Mr Chuka Blomfield, Paul Engel, Natascha McKechin, Ann Vaz, rh Keith Blunkett, rh Mr David Esterson, Bill McKenzie, Mr Iain Vaz, Valerie Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Evans, Chris McKinnell, Catherine Walley, Joan Brennan, Kevin Fitzpatrick, Jim Mearns, Ian Watson, Mr Tom Brown, Lyn Flint, rh Caroline Michael, rh Alun Watts, Mr Dave Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Fovargue, Yvonne Miliband, rh David Whitehead, Dr Alan Brown, Mr Russell Francis, Dr Hywel Miller, Andrew Williams, Hywel Bryant, Chris Gapes, Mike Mitchell, Austin Williamson, Chris Buck, Ms Karen George, Andrew Moon, Mrs Madeleine Wilson, Phil Burden, Richard Gilmore, Sheila Morden, Jessica Winnick, Mr David Byrne, rh Mr Liam Glass, Pat Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Campbell, Mr Alan Glindon, Mrs Mary Morris, Grahame M. Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Campbell, Mr Ronnie Godsiff, Mr Roger (Easington) Wright, David Clark, Katy Goggins, rh Paul Mudie, Mr George Wright, Mr Iain Clarke, rh Mr Tom Greatrex, Tom Coaker, Vernon Green, Kate Question accordingly agreed to. Cooper, Rosie Griffith, Nia Cooper, rh Yvette Gwynne, Andrew Corbyn, Jeremy Hain, rh Mr Peter SULPHUR CONTENTS FOR MARINE FUELS Crausby, Mr David Hamilton, Mr David That this House takes note of European Union Document Creagh, Mary Hamilton, Fabian No. 13016/11 and Addendum, relating to a Commission Creasy, Stella Harman, rh Ms Harriet Communication on the review of the implementation of Directive Cruddas, Jon Harris, Mr Tom 1999/32/EC related to the sulphur content of certain liquid fuels and on further pollutant emissions reduction from maritime Cryer, John Havard, Mr Dai transport, and No. 12806/11 and Addenda 1 and 2, relating to a Cunningham, Alex Hendrick, Mark draft Directive amending Directive 1999/32/EC as regards the Cunningham, Mr Jim Hepburn, Mr Stephen sulphur content of marine fuels; and supports the Government’s Curran, Margaret Heyes, David view that the proposed compromise, which is closely aligned with Dakin, Nic Hillier, Meg the international standard in the MARPOL Convention, is a Danczuk, Simon Hilling, Julie welcome outcome. 459 Deferred Divisions17 OCTOBER 2012 Deferred Divisions 460

The House divided: Ayes 479, Noes 33. Engel, Natascha Hepburn, Mr Stephen Division No. 75] Esterson, Bill Herbert, rh Nick Eustice, George Hermon, Lady Evans, Chris Heyes, David AYES Evans, Graham Hillier, Meg Abrahams, Debbie Cairns, Alun Evans, Jonathan Hilling, Julie Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Cameron, rh Mr David Evennett, Mr David Hinds, Damian Aldous, Peter Campbell, Mr Alan Fabricant, Michael Hoban, Mr Mark Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Campbell, Mr Ronnie Fallon, rh Michael Hodge, rh Margaret Alexander, Heidi Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Farron, Tim Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Ali, Rushanara Carmichael, Neil Featherstone, Lynne Hollingbery, George Amess, Mr David Chishti, Rehman Field, Mark Hood, Mr Jim Anderson, Mr David Clark, rh Greg Fitzpatrick, Jim Howell, John Andrew, Stuart Clark, Katy Flint, rh Caroline Hughes, rh Simon Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Fovargue, Yvonne Huhne, rh Chris Ashworth, Jonathan Clarke, rh Mr Tom Fox,rhDrLiam Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Bailey, Mr Adrian Clegg, rh Mr Nick Francis, Dr Hywel Hunt, Tristram Bain, Mr William Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Francois, rh Mr Mark Hunter, Mark Baker, Steve Coaker, Vernon Freeman, George Huppert, Dr Julian Baldry, Sir Tony Coffey, Dr Thérèse Freer, Mike Hurd, Mr Nick Baldwin, Harriett Collins, Damian Fuller, Richard Irranca-Davies, Huw Balls, rh Ed Colvile, Oliver Gapes, Mike Jackson, Mr Stewart Banks, Gordon Cooper, Rosie Garnier, Sir Edward James, Margot Barron, rh Mr Kevin Cooper, rh Yvette Garnier, Mark James, Mrs Siân C. Bebb, Guto Crabb, Stephen Gauke, Mr David Jamieson, Cathy Beckett, rh Margaret Crausby, Mr David George, Andrew Jarvis, Dan Begg, Dame Anne Creagh, Mary Gibb, Mr Nick Javid, Sajid Beith, rh Sir Alan Creasy, Stella Gilbert, Stephen Johnson, rh Alan Bellingham, Mr Henry Crockart, Mike Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Johnson, Diana Benn, rh Hilary Crouch, Tracey Gilmore, Sheila Johnson, Gareth Benton, Mr Joe Cruddas, Jon Glass, Pat Johnson, Joseph Berger, Luciana Cryer, John Glen, John Jones, Andrew Berry, Jake Cunningham, Alex Glindon, Mrs Mary Jones, rh Mr David Betts, Mr Clive Cunningham, Mr Jim Godsiff, Mr Roger Jones, Graham Bingham, Andrew Curran, Margaret Goggins, rh Paul Jones, Helen Birtwistle, Gordon Dakin, Nic Goldsmith, Zac Jones, Mr Kevan Blackman, Bob Danczuk, Simon Goodwill, Mr Robert Jones, Mr Marcus Blackman-Woods, Roberta Darling, rh Mr Alistair Gove, rh Michael Jones, Susan Elan Blackwood, Nicola Davey, rh Mr Edward Graham, Richard Joyce, Eric Blenkinsop, Tom David, Wayne Grayling, rh Chris Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Blomfield, Paul Davidson, Mr Ian Greatrex, Tom Kawczynski, Daniel Blunkett, rh Mr David Davies, David T. C. Green, rh Damian Keeley, Barbara Bradley, Karen (Monmouth) Green, Kate Kendall, Liz Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Davies, Geraint Greening, rh Justine Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Brady, Mr Graham Davies, Glyn Griffith, Nia Khan, rh Sadiq Brake, rh Tom de Bois, Nick Griffiths, Andrew Kirby, Simon Bray, Angie De Piero, Gloria Gwynne, Andrew Knight, rh Mr Greg Brazier, Mr Julian Denham, rh Mr John Gyimah, Mr Sam Laing, Mrs Eleanor Brennan, Kevin Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hain, rh Mr Peter Lamb, Norman Bridgen, Andrew Dobbin, Jim Halfon, Robert Lancaster, Mark Brine, Steve Docherty, Thomas Hames, Duncan Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Brokenshire, James Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Hamilton, Mr David Lavery, Ian Brooke, Annette Doran, Mr Frank Hamilton, Fabian Laws, rh Mr David Brown, Lyn Dorries, Nadine Hammond, rh Mr Philip Lazarowicz, Mark Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Dowd, Jim Hancock, Matthew Leadsom, Andrea Brown, Mr Russell Doyle, Gemma Hands, Greg Lee, Jessica Browne, Mr Jeremy Doyle-Price, Jackie Harman, rh Ms Harriet Lefroy, Jeremy Bruce, Fiona Dromey, Jack Harper, Mr Mark Leslie, Chris Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Duddridge, James Harrington, Richard Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Bryant, Chris Dugher, Michael Harris, Rebecca Lewis, Mr Ivan Buck, Ms Karen Duncan, rh Mr Alan Harris, Mr Tom Lewis, Dr Julian Buckland, Mr Robert Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Hart, Simon Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Burden, Richard Dunne, Mr Philip Harvey, Sir Nick Lilley, rh Mr Peter Burley, Mr Aidan Durkan, Mark Havard, Mr Dai Lloyd, Tony Burns, Conor Eagle, Ms Angela Heald, Oliver Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Burns, rh Mr Simon Eagle, Maria Healey, rh John Long, Naomi Burrowes, Mr David Efford, Clive Heath, Mr David Lord, Jonathan Burstow, rh Paul Elliott, Julie Heaton-Harris, Chris Loughton, Tim Burt, Lorely Ellis, Michael Hemming, John Love, Mr Andrew Byles, Dan Ellison, Jane Henderson, Gordon Lucas, Ian Byrne, rh Mr Liam Ellwood, Mr Tobias Hendrick, Mark Luff, Peter Cable, rh Vince Elphicke, Charlie Hendry, Charles Lumley, Karen 461 Deferred Divisions17 OCTOBER 2012 Deferred Divisions 462

Macleod, Mary Nokes, Caroline Smith, Julian Vaz, rh Keith MacShane, rh Mr Denis Norman, Jesse Smith, Nick Vaz, Valerie Mactaggart, Fiona O’Brien, Mr Stephen Smith, Owen Vickers, Martin Mahmood, Shabana Offord, Dr Matthew Smith, Sir Robert Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Main, Mrs Anne Ollerenshaw, Eric Soubry, Anna Walker, Mr Charles Malhotra, Seema Onwurah, Chi Spellar, rh Mr John Walker, Mr Robin Mann, John Opperman, Guy Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Wallace, Mr Ben Marsden, Mr Gordon Osborne, rh Mr George Spencer, Mr Mark Walley, Joan Maude, rh Mr Francis Ottaway, Richard Stephenson, Andrew Walter, Mr Robert May, rh Mrs Theresa Owen, Albert Stevenson, John Watson, Mr Tom Maynard, Paul Paice, rh Sir James Stewart, Bob Watts, Mr Dave McCabe, Steve Parish, Neil Stewart, Rory Weatherley, Mike McCann, Mr Michael Patel, Priti Straw, rh Mr Jack Wharton, James McCarthy, Kerry Pawsey, Mark Streeter, Mr Gary Wheeler, Heather McCartney, Jason Pearce, Teresa Stride, Mel White, Chris McCartney, Karl Penning, Mike Stringer, Graham Whitehead, Dr Alan McClymont, Gregg Penrose, John Stuart, Ms Gisela Whittaker, Craig McGovern, Alison Perkins, Toby Stunell, rh Andrew Whittingdale, Mr John McGovern, Jim Phillips, Stephen Sturdy, Julian Wiggin, Bill McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Phillipson, Bridget Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Willetts, rh Mr David McIntosh, Miss Anne Pickles, rh Mr Eric Swales, Ian Williams, Mr Mark McKechin, Ann Pincher, Christopher Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Williams, Roger McKenzie, Mr Iain Pound, Stephen Swinson, Jo Williams, Stephen McKinnell, Catherine Prisk, Mr Mark Syms, Mr Robert Williamson, Chris McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Qureshi, Yasmin Tami, Mark Williamson, Gavin McPartland, Stephen Raab, Mr Dominic Thornberry, Emily Willott, Jenny McVey, Esther Randall, rh Mr John Thurso, John Wilson, Phil Mearns, Ian Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Timms, rh Stephen Wilson, Mr Rob Menzies, Mark Rees-Mogg, Jacob Timpson, Mr Edward Wilson, Sammy Metcalfe, Stephen Reeves, Rachel Tomlinson, Justin Winnick, Mr David Michael, rh Alun Reid, Mr Alan Tredinnick, David Miliband, rh David Reynolds, Emma Truss, Elizabeth Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Miller, Andrew Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Turner, Karl Wollaston, Dr Sarah Miller, rh Maria Riordan, Mrs Linda Twigg, Derek Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Mills, Nigel Ritchie, Ms Margaret Tyrie, Mr Andrew Wright, David Milton, Anne Robertson, Mr Laurence Umunna, Mr Chuka Wright, Mr Iain Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Uppal, Paul Wright, Jeremy Mitchell, Austin Rogerson, Dan Vaizey, Mr Edward Wright, Simon Moon, Mrs Madeleine Rosindell, Andrew Vara, Mr Shailesh Young, rh Sir George Moore, rh Michael Roy, Mr Frank Mordaunt, Penny Roy, Lindsay NOES Morden, Jessica Ruane, Chris Morgan, Nicky Rudd, Amber Allen, Mr Graham Lucas, Caroline Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Baron, Mr John McCrea, Dr William Morris, Anne Marie Ruffley, Mr David Boles, Nick McDonnell, John Morris, David Russell, Sir Bob Bone, Mr Peter Nuttall, Mr David Morris, Grahame M. Rutley, David Campbell, Mr Gregory Paisley, Ian (Easington) Sanders, Mr Adrian Carswell, Mr Douglas Percy, Andrew Morris, James Sandys, Laura Cash, Mr William Reckless, Mark Mosley, Stephen Scott, Mr Lee Clappison, Mr James Redwood, rh Mr John Corbyn, Jeremy Mowat, David Seabeck, Alison Shannon, Jim Davies, Philip Mudie, Mr George Selous, Andrew Simpson, David Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Mulholland, Greg Shapps, rh Grant Skinner, Mr Dennis Drax, Richard Mundell, rh David Sharma, Alok Smith, Henry Munn, Meg Sharma, Mr Virendra Edwards, Jonathan Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Munt, Tessa Sheerman, Mr Barry Goodman, Helen Trickett, Jon Murray, Ian Shelbrooke, Alec Hollobone, Mr Philip Murray, Sheryll Shepherd, Mr Richard Hopkins, Kelvin Weir, Mr Mike Nandy, Lisa Sheridan, Jim Jenkin, Mr Bernard Williams, Hywel Nash, Pamela Shuker, Gavin Neill, Robert Simmonds, Mark Question accordingly agreed to. Newmark, Mr Brooks Slaughter, Mr Andy Newton, Sarah Smith, Angela

67WH 17 OCTOBER 2012 Food Prices (Planning Policy) 68WH

change to a more western diet. There have always been Westminster Hall hungry people on earth, but all of a sudden we have hungry wealthy people who are able to pull food away Wednesday 17 October 2012 from the European Union. I think that we now recognise that an enormous challenge faces us, and the question now is how we in [MR GARY STREETER in the Chair] the UK deal with it, because the amount of domestic land that we have available is a flat figure. Without Food Prices (Planning Policy) being flippant, we have stopped making land: the amount of land that we have is the amount that we have within 9.30 am the UK. It is imperative that, within the UK, we ensure that we use that land in the most effective way, to make Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting sure that we are well fed and are kept warm. That is be now adjourned.—(Karen Bradley.) where some of the challenges on land use start to be felt. Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter. I am What are the future threats? Clearly, the debate about delighted to have secured this debate on the effect of biofuels is an interesting one. The use of land for the domestic land use on food prices. production of energy is not a new concept. Going back to the 1940s, my grandfather was farming and a third of First, I draw Members’ attention to my entry in the his land was used for the production of hay to feed the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. As a farmer horses that pulled his ploughs. That was, in effect, in Nottinghamshire, I am of course affected by many of energy production at its most basic. As we have moved the issues around land use and the price of food. forward, however, farmers have found new opportunities, I hope that Members will forgive me if I start by and as they have found themselves under pressure to setting the scene about food prices, because the price of increase their incomes, they have certainly looked to food is a complicated issue that crosses many Departments. energy production to sustain themselves. I am quite aware that the Minister has responsibility for domestic planning and land use policy, but the issues Simon Hart (Carmarthen Westand South Pembrokeshire) that I will raise today cover a large number of other (Con): Does my hon. Friend agree that some farmers Departments. I shall try to keep my speech as focused as have found that they get less objection from planners I can on the Minister’s responsibilities. when they submit applications for renewable energy It is fair to say that past food prices have been stable projects than they do for projects that might relate to in the recent past. I suppose that we have been fortunate their own ability to produce food? as a nation to have been well fed for a number of years. Since the second world war, we have had a sustained Mr Spencer: I do, and that is an issue. However, I period of level and quite acceptable food prices, but actually welcome the opportunity for farmers to diversify that has started to change over the more recent past. their businesses, so that they can make them viable, but There have been a number of blips recently. In fact, in of course we need to be mindful of the impact. The 2008, we actually saw a period when food prices came example of anaerobic digestion is a good one. I welcome down again. We need to make our minds up really anaerobic digestion, as long as it makes use of waste about whether this is a sustained issue or something streams that actually are waste streams, because we get that is just a blip in the pattern of things. In my opinion, something for nothing out of that process. However, we are facing something quite enormous in the challenges what tends to happen, of course, is that farmers build before us and the way that food prices will rise. There anaerobic digesters but those digesters run much more are a number of reasons for that, not least the price of efficiently when forage maize is put through them rather oil, which is driving the cost for some farmers in their than a waste stream made up either of slurry, food production methods. Anyone who is familiar with waste or some other product. If Members were to drive agricultural practice will of course recognise that the down the middle of Nottinghamshire, they would see price of nitrogen fertilisers is based on the cost of oil that the landscape there today is very different from and that, as their price goes up, the cost to farmers of what it was five years ago. producing food rises exponentially. More importantly, what is really driving this process Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): My hon. Friend are issues around the world such as climate change, is talking about an issue that has a major effect on dairy population growth and of course the change in diet for farmers. For many years, farmers have rented land to many people in other parts of the globe. Those three grow their maize. Suddenly, they find that they can no challenges are bringing this perfect storm together, which longer buy maize, because it is now being taken into is a real challenge for us in the UK. biofuel plants. That will inevitably have a huge impact Let us look at some of those things. Whether people on the production of dairy products. think climate change is carbon-driven or just something that is in the cycle does not really matter, frankly, Mr Spencer: I am conscious of the fact that I said because climate change is here to stay and is having an that I would try to focus on the matters that are relevant enormous impact on our ability to produce food; it is to the Minister, and we are in danger of straying into driving those production challenges. Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Population growth, not only in the UK but around territory, dare I say? However, it is difficult not to do so the world, is also having a big impact, which will get because these are cross-Government issues, and biofuels even worse as people on the other side of the world are one such issue. 69WH Food Prices (Planning Policy)17 OCTOBER 2012 Food Prices (Planning Policy) 70WH

[Mr Spencer] would reply, “I would rather you sold another farmer’s pork than have an impact on the green belt with all The Minister is in control of planning policy. If we those pig arks.” That is just one anomaly; there is a clear look at other renewable schemes, such as the siting of difference between agricultural diversification and major wind turbines, we might think that they do not have a retail companies putting large warehouses in the green large effect, but I am told that the current demand belt. means that we will have to build 5,000 wind turbines. What can we take from the current state of food European targets will mean that we must more than prices? We have a problem, frankly, because food prices double the amount of energy from onshore wind during have been rising for some time and we can no longer the next 10 years and that we will have to build at least regard the increases as an anomaly. Whether we pin the another 5,000 turbines onshore. Guidance for farmers hikes on oil prices, climate change, population increases, provided by Wind Prospect advises that less than one bad harvests or other developing industries in the green acre of land is required for each turbine, including the belt, it is clear that the rises are here to stay. We remain a access track, the tower itself and hard standing for the nation dependent on imports, increasingly from all over crane. The remaining land can be utilised as it was the world, and we leave ourselves vulnerable to the previously. However, 5,000 turbines equates to 5,000 storm that is raging outside our borders. We need, acres, and 5,000 acres of productive arable land goes a therefore, to protect ourselves, just like we did in the long way to producing quite a lot of food. 1940s. We need to look at domestic production and We need to think about where we site some of these ensure that we are making the most efficient use of our wind turbines. There are a number of examples of how domestic land. we can put wind turbines on former industrial land, The percentage of agricultural land dropped from former collieries, old pit-tips and places like that, where 39% to 25% between 1989 and 2009—a stark decrease. they would not impact on the use of agricultural land. England has 14 green belts around its major cities, That is something that we should look at much more covering nearly 13% of the country, and 72% of the closely. Nottingham and Derby green belt—1 million hectares—is in agricultural use. Overall, 66% of the green belt is David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I congratulate used for agricultural purposes. The conclusion that I the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate and I draw is that the green belt is fundamental to our ability declare an interest in the agri-food sector. to produce food ourselves. In Nottinghamshire, the Most commentators would say that the era of cheap green belt is under enormous pressure from local authorities, food has gone, certainly for the medium term, and that as they consider sites for residential developments, and the world has become a much smaller place, so that it causes me enormous frustration that some of those reactions in prices happen fairly quickly. Does the hon. authorities are choosing green-belt development over Gentleman agree that it is imperative that we look at using the available brownfield sites. something radical to encourage the primary producer This debate comes down to one thing, and my one of food, because if things continue as they are they will request of the Minister is that he assure us that his result in more imports from other countries and the loss inspectors—these things undoubtedly end up in front of of jobs? We need to look at something radical to an inspector—will be completely rigorous in their scrutiny encourage farmers to grow more crops. of local plans. One of my local authorities, Gedling borough, has available to it the possibility of developing Mr Spencer: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. We a former colliery site, but has chosen, for whatever have achieved that before, with Government-led campaigns reason, to develop the green belt in the villages of Linby to improve domestic food production, and there are and Papplewick, and around Hucknall, instead. That examples from the recent past, when the previous causes me enormous frustration, because most people Government encouraged farmers to diversify and to in the borough recognise that the Gedling colliery site consider adding value to their products, to get more should be developed. There is some debate about whether from their production. That, however, brings with it an access road would allow for more housing, but anomalies. clearly there is the opportunity to put between 600 and 700 houses closer to the urban fringe, rather than to I will draw on my own experience as a farmer on the tear up the green belt in Nottinghamshire. urban fringe. We considered diversifying into farm retail, so that we could sell not only our own farm products Another example is that the Department for but those of our neighbours, but I was told by my local Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has spent a lot of planning authority that, because of the legislation in money on flood defences at a site called Teal close in place to protect the green belt from out-of-town Netherfield. I am led to believe that the site, which is development, it was not possible to retail where we close to the urban fringe and not within the green belt, wanted to. Companies such as Halfords and B and Q is now protected from flooding, but it is not being want to build large retail units in the urban fringe, and a developed, for whatever reason, and we are, again, farm shop is, in effect, retail. I was told that most of my pushing houses out into the rural areas. We need to produce had to be sold through the farm shop and most look long and hard at that issue. of the shop’s produce had to come from the farm—I I cannot say often enough that brownfield before understand the logic of that—but if I asked my neighbours green-belt development is absolutely essential. I hope who live close to the farm, “Would you rather my farm that that message seeps through and that at some point shop retail the pork of one of my near neighbours, so in the future, when we are all feeling much hungrier and that I could support both their business and the retail cannot afford to import food, these things will come business, or would you rather I put 1,000 pig arks together. We will then wonder what on earth we were behind your houses and produce my own pork?”, they doing back in the early part of this century. We cannot 71WH Food Prices (Planning Policy)17 OCTOBER 2012 Food Prices (Planning Policy) 72WH go back. Once we have developed land and it has been he will not consider sticks, rather than carrots, but does taken out of agricultural production, it very rarely goes not that incentive for going down the route of development, back. Probably the only examples of such land being rather than food production, need to be addressed, too? returned to agricultural use are those involving open-cast sites that have had their topsoil removed and later put Mr Spencer: That is exactly where the ball lands in back, but even then it is very low-grade agricultural the Minister’s lap, frankly. There is a big difference land that is probably used for grazing sheep rather than between considering controls on developing land for for arable production. residential or industrial use and considering variants of There are, nevertheless, some good examples of where crops that may be produced on that land, because we can get it right. Cemetery provision is a fairly whatever crop is grown, the land can be reused for contention issue, of course, because people do not another crop. Of course, once land is converted to really want cemeteries to be set up in the green belt, but bungalows or industrial units, it can never go back. The natural cemeteries have been developed. There are no Government, at whatever level, have a role to play in headstones and people are buried in a more natural ensuring that we get those choices right. Again, that is state in a wicker coffin, so the cemetery can be used for the thrust of the debate. I do not hesitate to repeat grazing sheep and for livestock. That is a good example myself: we have to develop brownfield sites before we of things working together, and I encourage that sort of start tearing up the green belt, which can never return. diversification. A number of colleagues wish to speak, so I shall leave it One of my final points is that we do not want to there. throw the baby out with the bathwater—if Members will forgive the cliché. Farmers need to be able to 9.52 am diversify, to consider other ways to support their income. Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): It is a Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): The hon. pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter. Gentleman has tempted me into the debate by ranging I apologise to colleagues for my post-conference lurgy. widely from anaerobic digestion to burials—no connection, They will be pleased to know that I am past the infectious of course, between the two. There is a role for Government stage. intervention and planning controls, but farmers make I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood commercial choices about land use, as I am sure that the (Mr Spencer) on securing this debate. The matter is hon. Gentleman does. They choose between biofuels, important across the country, and I am sure the Minister food production and development of other sorts. What will reply diligently later. does he think is the right balance between Government One of the things I normally talk about when discussing intervention, or Government control and regulation, food prices is connected to the weather: the combined and the freedom of the individual farmer—landowner—to effects of drought and deluge. Although Government make their own choices? policies may be able to do something about that in the long term, no one can kid themselves that the Prime Mr Spencer: I have great respect for the hon. Gentleman. Minister can control the weather specifically. He is very clever in his thinking. It is a difficult tightrope In Suffolk Coastal, there are similar concerns to that he has put there for me, and I almost hesitate to those raised by my hon. Friend. The expansion of tiptoe down it. It is easy to come across as a hypocrite. development in greenfield sites is displacing potential Farmers clearly want to make the largest possible profit, food-growing opportunities, whether that is for much- and as a member of the Conservative party, I believe needed housing in our part of Suffolk or for industrial that the Government should not be interventionist and purposes, such as logistic sites, that take over not only poke their nose into people’s private business. grade 3 land but higher-grade land, too. The answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question is to Picking up on something my hon. Friend said about look at the carrot and not the stick. Within the energy towards the end of his excellent speech, it is Government’s delivery of subsidies and support for almost a lack of planning policy that is starting to cause different sectors, farmers are adept at finding the schemes potential issues. My right hon. Friend the Member for that work for them. We need to tempt farmers back into Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark), in his previous role, food production, but Government support will be needed which is currently occupied by my hon. Friend the because there are commercial decisions to be made Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles), between producing energy, which is fairly heavily subsidised told councils, “As part of your core strategy, you can through the EU, or food, which has also been subsidised now add a particular section to plan for renewable in the past. The Government could consider the way in energy.” That recognises that, at the moment, there are which farmers retail that food and support them in many speculative applications, sometimes driven by financial getting more value from it, and there are currently plans desire for a return on investment. for a grocery ombudsman to protect farmers. Huw Irranca-Davies: Carrots. Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent case, and I apologise for missing his opening remarks. Further to the previous intervention, Mr Gary Streeter (in the Chair): Order. Sedentary does he not accept that the planning system is, after all, interventions are never helpful. fuelled by greed, rather than by need? If a farmer sees the capacity to convert his land from food production Dr Coffey: Thank you, Mr Streeter. I think the hon. to something that is akin to £1 million an acre, what Gentleman was suggesting that financial carrots may be could be more profitable? Is that not the issue? He says more worth while than actually growing carrots. 73WH Food Prices (Planning Policy)17 OCTOBER 2012 Food Prices (Planning Policy) 74WH

[Dr Thérèse Coffey] schemes such as the new homes bonus, which proactively rewards councils that recognise the need for more housing There is also a desire for lower-carbon energy, for for their constituents. That is true in my part of the which there is community support in parts of my country, but for our longer-term security we need councils constituency. Applications are starting to come in all of to think carefully about the displacement of land, whether a sudden, and there is no question but that when a 7% for housing or energy, and planning policies that currently or 8% return on land is offered for basically doing do not exist. We do not want to return to being an nothing, it is quite attractive to landowners who have importer of food that we could easily grow ourselves; hard lives working the land. As has already been mentioned, instead, we should focus on energy security, food security that might offer, among other things, biodiversification and creating a coherent message. We encourage our and allow landowners more time to focus on the quality local councils to take full advantage of that. of the food they produce on other parts of their land. What are particularly starting to crop up—no pun 9.59 am intended—in East Anglia are solar farms. We are starting Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con): It is a pleasure to see a significant number of applications, although to serve under your chairmanship again, Mr Streeter. I the only application in my constituency was withdrawn congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood because it is in an area of outstanding natural beauty. (Mr Spencer) on securing this timely debate. As anybody Although council officers recommended onshore turbines who has canvassed recently will know, cost of living is in the AONB, for some reason their recommendation the big issue on the doorstep. Whether it involves fuel was not to have solar farms in it. Outside my prices or food prices, someone at every door has a view constituency—a couple of applications abut my and a proper concern about the direction of travel of constituency—we are starting to see a trend for significantly the cost of living. sized solar farms, which is of concern to local residents both because they are quite a change in land use and Unlike everybody else, I cannot declare an interest. I because of the effect on future food security. used to have one; that is as good as I can get. In a former life—when I had a proper job, as my mum Having addressed energy in AONBs, I do have a would say—I used to wholesale fruit and veg for a living nuclear power station, and I hope to get another, so I in New Covent Garden market. I worked nights for 11 am not saying that the two things are incompatible, far years and dealt with farmers daily. They were a joy and from it. We know that industry can co-exist with agriculture a pleasure. Never could there be a nicer group of people and nature without necessarily destroying them, but to do business with. At the other end of the equation, one of the big local concerns is that some of the subsidy because it was a pure market—supply, demand and is driving decisions on land use. As well as potatoes, information—I dealt with buyers from very big companies Suffolk Coastal is best known for pigs and poultry, as well as high-street grocers. I know how the demands which are the two things not subsidised by the common of ordinary punters can change the market for farmers. agricultural policy. As an aside, there are more pigs They can grow one type of lettuce one year and lose a than people in Suffolk, which shows how much we love ton of money, and then grow a different type of lettuce that particular source of food for the future. the next year and make a ton of money. I understand The issue is translating into other areas. We are the supply and demand issues of food, or at least I did starting to see planning applications for straw-based when I worked in the business. incinerators, and there may even be one in the Minister’s The Minister will be pleased to know that the business constituency. Farmers are worried that their local access was set up by four Lincolnshire farmers in the late to straw is increasingly expensive. We are trying to 1970s, and thrived through the days of the supermarket encourage better animal welfare, which leads to different boom. The four farmers who helped set up that family use of such materials, so food costs are starting to go business all diversified; in fact, in my lifetime, I have up, and many farmers are concerned that it will be more never known a farmer not to diversify. One went into worth while to import food that we would naturally transport. Two went into building things: one built take for granted. homes, the other built offices that he rented out to local A mixture of things are going on, all of which seem businesses. One ended up building a karting track, and designed, unintentionally, to hit the food bills that our people now hurtle on go-karts around fields that used constituents pay every week when they go to their local to produce good-quality cauliflowers. It is difficult to butcher or supermarket. A number of factors are coming find a farmer who has not diversified due to the market together, so what can we do? My Government, quite over the past three or four decades. Although food rightly, do not want to prescribe the development of prices are now high, that cannot be said of food prices growth agendas to local councils, whether on housing in our short-term history, which is why we started or energy; they want to allow local communities, led by subsidising farming in the first place. We needed food, councils, to make such decisions for themselves. but there was not enough return on the goods being The Government need to encourage, not compel, produced, so the Government started to subsidise it so Departments to work with each other—the Department that we would have enough. for Communities and Local Government working with Anyone considering a planning policy to encourage the Department of Energy and Climate Change and the the production of good-quality food on a large enough Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs—to scale to feed the nation would not start from where we ensure that our approaches have no unintended are now, and I do not think we should try. We should consequences and do not conflict. support farmers a bit, but our planning policy should Ultimately, I support the Government’s desire to be much broader than simply worrying about food build new homes, which is what we want to encourage production. We live in a world market. If we want to local councils to do. DCLG has come up with great encourage farmers in Africa to trade themselves out of 75WH Food Prices (Planning Policy)17 OCTOBER 2012 Food Prices (Planning Policy) 76WH poverty, they need a market to supply. I am not overly A farmer who wants to put their kids through school concerned about some of the issues raised, but we and ensure that they can go to university will find a should paint the picture in historical terms. field—they do not care which one it is—and stick turbines on it. Mr Spencer: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for The Minister will know because numerous local planning giving way; I am conscious that I have had more than authorities have written to him—including at least one my say. Does he recognise that although the market will that I represent—as well as from his own experience of flow when there is enough product, the product may policy in Lincolnshire that local planning authorities cease? For example, on the wheat market, Russia basically are hugely concerned. They feel slightly under the cosh said a year ago, “That’s it, we’re not going to export having to allow turbines and other renewable energy another grain of wheat.” It does not matter how much projects even when they know that the projects are not money we have; we cannot buy something that is not for suitable for the land, whether for food production reasons sale. That is when there starts to be an impact on the or because of their proximity to dwellings. Will he help UK. planning authorities around the country by advising us, them and the Planning Inspectorate how he intends to Chris Heaton-Harris: I completely recognise that, but deal with the conundrum of super-subsidised energy we still produce a decent amount of wheat. Five years production replacing less subsidised food production in ago, lots of the farmers who grow wheat were diversifying areas where few people want it? Even where the parish into an energy crop, miscanthus. There was simply not council, local residents, the district council and maybe enough value in the market for them, so they decided the local MP and MEP all object for good, solid planning there would be better value in growing miscanthus, reasons, a decision can be foisted on them, even though which is pelleted for biofuels, trucked up to Drax and the energy production unit might be close to dwellings chucked into the coal-fired plant up there. Again, the and so on. market responded. Now fewer people in the United Finally, I want to tell the Minister that the planning Kingdom are growing miscanthus, or seeking to grow inspectorate that he directly controls, even though it is it, than five years ago, because the market price of an arm’s length body with delegated powers, needs wheat is rising, not exponentially but rapidly, and there direction on this issue, which is causing great upset seems to be no basis for it to fall. However, that is not across the countryside. There is only one man who is necessarily a planning policy issue; it is a different made for the job of sorting it out, and I would like to policy issue affecting the use of land. Ultimately, it is an think that it is my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham energy subsidy, which is different. and Stamford (Nick Boles)—the Minister himself. As far as the Minister is concerned, though, we have a dilemma. We are an island nation with roads, homes 10.10 am and businesses, and we need to supply energy and food for them, but we have traditionally had a broad-based Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): I congratulate food production economy. We were very good at providing my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) for ourselves until 30 or 40 years ago. The Minister on securing the debate on such an interesting topic. I must consider his portfolio in the broadest possible did not intend to speak—I came to listen to what my sense. There are legitimate concerns about food security, hon. Friend had to say—but a number of points have which have been mentioned by my hon. Friend the been made that are of sufficient interest to me and I am Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey). People worry, grateful that there is time for me to do so. First, I should properly, that if foreign supply of a particular good declare an interest. I have been a farmer all my life. At dries up, we will be priced out of the market, but we are the moment, my land is rented out, but the rent I receive fortunate in being a relatively rich western country, and depends of the profitability of the industry, so I feel we will almost always be able to buy the goods that we that I need to declare an interest that will be recorded in require. However, that diverts goods away from developing the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. countries. There is a concern, but I am not convinced We are debating the consequences of land that is used that it is the concern highlighted at the start of the for food production being used for other purposes. I debate. accept the point—I think that we all do—that we are a The Minister must consider some areas that are within trading nation and part of a trading world and that his remit. It is significant that one part of his Department Britain has always been subject to change over the incentivises farmers not to produce food through a decades. I cannot help but feel, however, that we have policy enabling renewable energy production that is way reached a stage regarding land use where the change more financially beneficial to farmers than the hard that we face is greater than we have ever faced before. In graft that goes into producing a decent arable or livestock a sense, that is inevitable, but the Minister, the Government crop annually. In my last couple of minutes, I want to and all of us have to be aware of unintended consequences. bang on about something that I regularly bang on Unintended consequences are always the problem—those about, namely the delights of onshore wind energy, how things that happen that we are unaware of and do not it fits within the Minister’s portfolio and how it directly give sufficient attention to when dealing with an issue. affects food prices, as my hon. Friend the Member for The main driver for change in land use is population Sherwood said. Any farmer who has not considered growth. During my lifetime, we have seen an enormous diversifying into renewable energy is slightly mad. The change in the projected number of people who will live gains from doing so are phenomenal. Even the £1 million in the United Kingdom. Before too long, that number investment for a small 325-MW turbine, which is about will reach 70 million. Inevitably, if that happens, we will 40 m high, might well be paid back in three or three and need more houses, more roads and more rail. How we a half years, and subsidy is guaranteed for 25 years. live changes, and there will be more demand for leisure 77WH Food Prices (Planning Policy)17 OCTOBER 2012 Food Prices (Planning Policy) 78WH

[Glyn Davies] by one person who comes in from outside with delegated powers, that causes an issue for localism. Perhaps the activity. All that uses a huge amount of land, far more Minister can give us some assurances on how the Planning than anticipated. We have to consider population increase Inspectorate will deal with future local plans that involve carefully, because of its impact on the way we live as a renewable energy elements. nation. Glyn Davies: That strikes a real chord with me. I very I, too, want to touch on the use of land for energy much support the principle of the Government putting production. I do not oppose that, but I am one of those localism at the heart of what they are doing. However, I stupid farmers who, because I detest onshore wind to must admit that if one talks to anybody in my constituency such an extent, has decided that he does not want the about the principle of localism at the moment, when we additional income. I have no intention whatever of are talking about onshore wind, they will snort with going down that road, and I advise most of my fellow laughter. The idea of localism has gone completely out farmers, if they can afford not to, to do the same. I must the window. admit that in my Montgomery constituency, an awful lot of farmers take that view: they despise how my Returning to the land use issue, there is one other constituency could be destroyed by the ravages of the point I want to make. onshore wind business. This issue is more than just Huw Irranca-Davies: Once again, the hon. Gentleman about that, however. is speaking passionately on behalf of his constituents I have always supported biofuels, but in mid-Wales about a cause that he believes in strongly and vehemently. the potential for the development of miscanthus is On local planning and the democratic deficit, does he huge. That is having an immediate impact—an issue think that now is the right time to devolve the responsibility that I raised in an intervention about maize. A new for large energy infrastructure projects to Wales? Would biofuels plant requires maize. For decades, dairy farmers that do anything to reduce the democratic deficit, or is rented land to grow maize to sustain their dairy stock. it an irrelevance? I am genuinely interested, because That was part of how they farmed. Suddenly, they can that seems to go to the heart of some of what he is no longer do that. It is totally impossible for them to saying—that some decisions could be made more locally, compete in the market, because there is a subsidised at least in Wales. industry—biofuels—buying up all the maize and they have had to withdraw. Clearly, that involves reducing Glyn Davies: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that the number of stock that they keep—an unintended intervention. Indeed, I could probably speak for about consequence. half an hour on the issue, but I am sure, Mr Streeter, When we talk about onshore wind—as my hon. that you would not allow me to do so. In principle, I Friend the Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris) agree with the hon. Gentleman’s point, but the reality is did, as always, in such an authoritative way—it is not that the sheer contempt for local opinion on this issue is just the wind turbine that takes up a certain area. I want greater in Cardiff, in the National Assembly for Wales, to make two points on this. In mid-Wales at the moment, than at Westminster. Whereas previously, I may well we are talking about a project that has a 35-mile line have subscribed to the principle of transferring the from Shropshire into the middle of my constituency. power for over-50 MW onshore wind to the National There will be 150-foot high pylons—steel towers—all Assembly, I would not support that now, if I were on the way along that line. That will mean sterilising a huge this earth for another 100 years, simply because of the amount of land, and even the substation at the end of it way in which the First Minister of the National Assembly will cover 20 acres. The impact on land use is huge, has changed his views and shown total contempt for the notwithstanding the 600 or 700 turbines involved. opinions of the people of my constituency. We also have to be really careful about how the The final issue that I want to touch on briefly is people of this country feel they are connected with planning. I make an appeal to the Minister regarding government. In my constituency, the local authority has planning applications. It concerns not only onshore turned down all the large applications associated with wind but energy crops. Permission seems to be granted this big project going ahead. If I have a public meeting for matters that would not even reach the planning on the issue, huge numbers of people turn up—probably committee if they involved anything else. Applications a couple of thousand people. In fact, 2,000 people came come through for wind farms, with no back-up, that to Cardiff with me, in 37 buses, to express our viewpoint. would be thrown out without any trouble, yet they are It is clear that the constituency feels that it does not approved. An application will come through to convert want this imposed on it. Yet, my constituents also a building into a house to provide extra income on a believe that, despite that being their comprehensive farm, and that is turned down. We find a total difference view, the Governments in Westminster and Cardiff do in attitude towards genuine small businesses that want not care at all and will use every device that they have to to use their property—often an empty building—in a ensure that those applications go through. It is dangerous way that would benefit the economy. That will be turned for any Government to allow that democratic deficit to down and a totally alien application, which would cause happen, in addition to the land use change, without huge damage, is approved. That balance needs to be being very careful about what they are doing. looked at.

Chris Heaton-Harris: For the Minister, the damage is 10.21 am to the localism agenda. When so many people who have Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): a vital part to play in the communities that they represent It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship once are being ignored—this is the point that I was trying to again, Mr Streeter. I thank the hon. Member for Sherwood make about the Planning Inspectorate—and overruled (Mr Spencer) for securing the debate. 79WH Food Prices (Planning Policy)17 OCTOBER 2012 Food Prices (Planning Policy) 80WH

I had a few anxious moments when I thought I had For whatever reason, whether it is a National Assembly, wandered into the wrong debate, because it seemed to county council or district council, they are not taking take some while for us to get around to looking at what on board the views of our constituents. I ask the Minister domestic land use policy might have to do with food to help by having his planning inspector step in and prices. I was interested that we looked at oil, climate make local authorities deliver localism, as my constituents change, population growth, bad harvests and renewable want. energy. All those things are, of course, relevant to food prices. However, I was not convinced of their relationship Roberta Blackman-Woods: I thank the hon. Gentleman to planning policy in the UK. Perhaps we can talk more for that intervention. However, it is an argument in about that in a moment. support of localism, not an argument in favour of not I was interested that some Members seemed to argue having any growth locally. The point of neighbourhood for more Government intervention in planning policy. planning is to encourage local communities to think At one point I thought the hon. Member for Daventry about where they want growth. (Chris Heaton-Harris) was arguing for more Government I digress a little, so I want to get back to the issue. intervention in the markets. Sadly, he let me down by saying that was perhaps not the correct approach. Huw Irranca-Davies: I want to pick up on my hon. Friend’s point on a genuine cross-party basis. Matthew We did eventually return to the issue of food production. Taylor, the Liberal Democrat, brought forward a good Members raised a number of legitimate concerns about report while Labour was in power. He was commissioned land use policy. I was not so convinced by their suggested to produce a report on housing. It went to the heart of solution. They flagged up the central issue at the heart how to reconcile local aspirations for housing with local of planning policy: balancing competing interests for opposition to housing. How can it be made to work? land that, as the hon. Member for Sherwood rightly We are still struggling with that dilemma. Localism is said, is in finite supply. all well and good but when localism both opposes and supports development, there is a bit of a conundrum. Huw Irranca-Davies: My hon. Friend makes a good point about the distinction between short-term and Roberta Blackman-Woods: My hon. Friend makes a long-term imperatives, which can conflict. We do not good point, but that is exactly the issue that the planning want to revisit some of the policies of the distant past. system is supposed to resolve. The peat bogs of the hills of Plinlimon were irrigated I fully recognise the important issue of food prices and freed for food production in the 1940s and 1950s, and congratulate the hon. Member for Sherwood on understandably at that time. We now have to undo the raising it. Last year about 130,000 people turned to damage by blocking them up again to restore the carbon food banks to meet their families’ daily needs. The locked into the peat bogs. We need to focus on reconciling number is growing weekly. I am sure a lot of hon. conflicting objectives and on taking a long-term view Members will have recently taken part in the FairShare about what planning controls are for. campaign organised by Sainsbury’s to collect food in their local supermarkets. Such is the degree of need in Roberta Blackman-Woods: My hon. Friend makes an our communities. Indeed, we see more and more families excellent point, which I was about to come to. Some who are simply not able to feed themselves because of hon. Members have suggested a solution. Part of the rising food prices. The UN Food and Agriculture solution has to be a national, strategic plan to set out Organisation says that cereal prices could be 20% higher clearly where the priority areas are for farming and over the next decade, and that will eventually lead to food production, and how we are going to manage the higher food prices in our shops. need for renewable energy in future. I do not think it is I am not sure whether the point was made by the hon. acceptable for us simply to stand up and say we do not Member for Sherwood, but the UK produces about want to have wind farms in a particular area. We need 65% of its own food, so domestic land use policy clearly to say where and how we will meet the nation’s energy has a significant role to play in keeping food prices low needs. and, critically, affordable. We therefore need a planning I had another few anxious moments when I thought system that supports vibrant communities and Government the hon. Member for Sherwood was simply going to policy that encourages long-term sustainability—exactly make a case against having new housing or growth in the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for rural areas. That anxiety was again unfounded, because Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies)—and builds on a sustainable he did not say that. However, I know he has in the past rural community and economy. Things have to change argued against development in former mining communities somewhat if we are to achieve that, in particular in the in his area, saying that large five-bedroom houses are face of some of the wider issues raised by the hon. not appropriate. I am unclear why that is the case. I do Member for Sherwood, such as climate change and not think it fits the Prime Minister’s aspiration nation alternative land use challenges. to say that because currently there are no three or This year alone, the UK’s harvest was down 15% four-bedroom houses in those areas, there should be because of the unusually wet summer weather. Such none in future. unpredictability is set to worsen and will lead to a need for, possibly, a change in Government policy and, certainly, Mr Spencer: Fundamentally it comes down to believing more intervention. The Government’s record to date is passionately in localism. We believe in those decisions not good. being taken locally. There is enormous frustration. My constituents tell me, “These are our opinions. This is Chris Heaton-Harris: The hon. Lady said that the what we want to see. We want houses developed in our weather is set to worsen and that we therefore need area that suit our community, that match our community.” Government intervention. Can she tell me what the 81WH Food Prices (Planning Policy)17 OCTOBER 2012 Food Prices (Planning Policy) 82WH

[Chris Heaton-Harris] range from supporting local farmers to putting aside additional land for food production, or setting targets weather will be like next Wednesday or in a year’s time? for local farmers to grow additional crops or to diversify. Weather is remarkably unpredictable, and I am not sure The whole area is not being looked at with the seriousness that it justifies Government intervention. it deserves given what we know what will happen to food prices. Roberta Blackman-Woods: Sorry, I thought that was Has the Minister any intention to work with local going to be a sensible intervention. Obviously, given businesses or local food networks to promote awareness, that we will have more unpredictability in the weather—that access, affordability and availability of local food, or to is what we think, at least, because of climate change—I encourage local supermarkets to source food locally? meant that we need to plan for it and perhaps look Does he intend to do anything to support local community particularly at a policy that would support more food groups and to engage in initiatives to shape food production production on the land we have, or on additional land, locally? For example, that could be something that which was another point made by the hon. Member for neighbourhood planning concentrates on, although it Sherwood. might be difficult without more direction to local communities. We also want to see greater diversity on Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): offer on the high street, so that we are not simply relying Will the hon. Lady give way? on a couple of supermarkets but encouraging a range of Roberta Blackman-Woods: I will not take an intervention local retailers with local connections and food networks, from the hon. Lady because she has not taken part in providing not only an advantage to local farmers but—this the debate so far, and I am rapidly running out of time. is important—support for local farmers. We want, therefore, I want to ask the Minister some specific questions a farming and land use policy that supports local about what he might do to support additional food communities and, in particular, looks at ways to reduce production in this country. food miles while making good-quality food accessible to a wider range of people than is the case at the Rather than simply messing about with the planning moment. system and using it as a scapegoat for the Government’s economic failure, we should have a series of policies that look at how food production, communities and 10.38 am infrastructure will work together. We need a policy that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for encourages economic growth but at the same time puts Communities and Local Government (Nick Boles): It is a the environment at the forefront. That means supporting pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter, green infrastructure, which can be defined as a network in this, my first speech as a Minister—I hope that it is of green spaces that provide life-support functions including my worst speech as a Minister, in that things can only food, fibre, air to breathe, places for nature and places go up from here. for recreation. The idea has been taken up by some of our local authorities. Birmingham city council has set I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood out a whole range of policy goals, such as facilitating (Mr Spencer) on securing a debate on a subject that is community food growing and orchards, but that is the very near to his heart and to that of many of his exception. The hon. Member for Sherwood went some constituents. It is also near to the heart of many of my way towards giving a couple of examples to Government constituents and, indeed, of my own father, who has a on how to encourage food production and better use of small farm—much smaller than my hon. Friend’s—in land in rural areas—in particular, dual use of land, such the fine county of Devon. as green cemeteries. I want to address the original subject, although the It could be argued that, instead, the national planning debate has been an excellent one, taking in almost every policy framework has undermined the strategic basis on aspect of Government policy, for most of which, fortunately, which local authorities can build upon and improve I have no responsibility. The original subject, however, green infrastructure in their areas. For example, we are was the link between the planning system and the recent not clear about what nature improvement areas are effects on food prices. supposed to do or what they are for. The Government Perhaps the only part of the contribution from the should be doing more to encourage community land-share hon. Member for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman- schemes or local food webs—taking on board growing Woods) with which I could agree was when she doubted produce locally, setting up local co-ops and selling the direct impact of land use and the planning system produce to the local high street and independent retailers. on food prices. This country imports a great deal of That whole area of getting different bits of our planning food—nearly 50%, but fortunately not more—and most system and our rural policies to work together has been foodstuffs, but not all, operate in a global market. As taken up by the Campaign to Protect Rural England in the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) an excellent report, which all hon. Members should pointed out, the reasons for recent rises in food prices read, “From field to fork.” The CPRE recommends are mostly global energy prices, the change in the value that planning guidance is put in place for local authorities. of sterling relative to other currencies and the changing The Minister has put planning guidance out to consultation, nature of the demand for food from the rapidly developing but the general drift of the Government so far has been countries of Asia and elsewhere. against providing guidance to local authorities, which I do not believe that the planning system can be held could do with some support and assistance in this area. responsible for the pressure on food prices. The hon. What are the Government doing to support other Gentleman and other hon. Members, including my public bodies to form partnerships to develop food hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey), strategies and action plans in their areas? That could pointed out that even if we cannot do much directly 83WH Food Prices (Planning Policy)17 OCTOBER 2012 Food Prices (Planning Policy) 84WH about food prices, we have a great interest in ensuring 0.3% of the country’s total area. Some of the more that we have a basic level of food security. Clearly, that apocalyptic visions painted not by hon. Members, but is where the use of our land is important. others outside, of Governments of various stripes concreting I hope that I can reassure hon. Members, particularly over the countryside have no basis in fact. my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood, about the status of agriculture in the planning system, and particularly Andrea Leadsom: On a point of clarification, when in the much slimmed-down planning policy framework the Minister says that so little greenfield and green belt introduced last year. Agriculture is the only industry—given land has been developed, does he include planning that how hard farmers work, it deserves to be called an has been granted, or just planning that has gone ahead? industry—that has specific status in the planning system and explicit consideration in national policy. The policy Nick Boles: I thank my hon. Friend. I believe that framework is very clear about the importance of preserving that applies to buildings that have already gone up. agricultural land. Paragraph 112 states: Obviously, some permissions have been granted and “Local planning authorities should take into account the development has not yet taken place, but I do not economic and other benefits of the best and most versatile believe that would change the picture dramatically, agricultural land. Where significant development of agricultural because most permissions apply to land outside the land is demonstrated to be necessary, local planning authorities green belt—much of it, although not all, to brownfield should seek to use areas of poorer quality land in preference to land. Our planning policies provide protection for that of a higher quality.” agricultural and green-belt land. That is an explicit indication to local authorities to try The importance of diversification in the rural economy to preserve high-quality agricultural land where possible. has been discussed; we heard about it from my hon. My hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood said that Friend the Member for Sherwood and others. Many of much of the green belt is agricultural land, so any my constituents in Grantham make the journey to my incursion into it for other uses is a particular threat to hon. Friend’s farm shop, which is famous in those parts, agricultural land. Here, too, I believe I can offer him so I know that that diversification has been successful. reassurance that I hope will also reassure people who The national planning policy framework makes explicit have other concerns about the green belt and the the requirement for policies to Government’s intentions. In the national planning policy “support economic growth in rural areas in order to create jobs framework, the Government have put in place very and prosperity…To promote a strong rural economy…neighbourhood explicit and strong protection for the green belt. Paragraph plans should…support the sustainable growth and expansion of 79 states: all types of business and enterprise in rural areas, both through “The Government attaches great importance to Green Belts. conversion of existing buildings and well designed new buildings” The fundamental aim of Green Belt policy is to prevent urban and sprawl by keeping land permanently open; the essential characteristics “promote the development and diversification of agricultural and of Green Belts are their openness and their permanence.” other land-based rural businesses”. Agriculture is one of the few productive uses of land I am happy to say that the Government are looking that preserves its openness by definition. closely at the matter, and hope to introduce specific Paragraph 83 states: proposals to make it easier to convert agricultural buildings “Local planning authorities with Green Belts in their area into homes and for other uses without having to go should establish Green Belt boundaries in their Local Plans through the planning process. I believe that planning which set the framework for Green Belt and settlement policy. policies provide many of the protections that hon. Once established” Members seek. However, I am aware that much of the it debate has focused on the balance between the demands “should only be altered in exceptional circumstances, through the on agriculture for food production, and other uses of preparation or review of the Local Plan.” land, whether agricultural or other, for renewable energy. My hon. Friend expressed concern that some authorities, The national planning policy framework requires including authorities in Nottinghamshire, have not attached local planning authorities to have a positive strategy to sufficient priority to the development of brownfield promote renewable and low-carbon energy. We must sites. All I can say is that national policy is very clear remember the history of the energy situation in this about priorities. Paragraph 17 states: country. We recently received a warning—I think it was “Planning should…encourage the effective use of land by from Ofgem—that we face a real risk of the lights going reusing land that has been previously developed (brownfield out in relatively few years. The main reason for that is land), provided that it is not of high environmental value”. the complete failure of the previous Government to There are certainly strong indications to planning authorities grasp any difficult nettles— that green-belt land should be preserved and that brownfield land, when possible and viable, should be developed in Huw Irranca-Davies: Will the Minister give way? preference. I hope that it will reassure hon. Members to learn Nick Boles: Perhaps I could finish slating the previous that in 2010 only 2% of new dwellings were built on the Government before giving way. They completely failed green belt, and that the quantity of green belt has to grasp any difficult nettles, whether in relation to increased since 1997 because local authorities, which building nuclear power stations or encouraging renewable control the designation, have designated new land as industry and gas plants. green belt. Housing development on greenfield land, which is distinguished from green belt land, has accounted Huw Irranca-Davies: The Minister is making a brave for only 0.3% of the total land area of England since fist of slating the previous Government, but he has just 1985. House building on green land has been on only heard his hon. Friends, one after another, oppose renewable 85WH Food Prices (Planning Policy)17 OCTOBER 2012 Food Prices (Planning Policy) 86WH

[Huw Irranca-Davies] the Nottinghamshire green belt. All the heartache I am experiencing now is caused by some of the sites that energy from onshore wind farms or solar farms on were brought forward under that strategy. Only the agricultural land. He should tread carefully. Can he localism agenda and freeing up the planning process explain why the Government have seen a fall from third have given us a chink of light to defend some of those place as an international destination for inward investment green belt areas and to try to force local authorities to in renewables in the year when the previous Government develop brownfield sites first. left office, to seventh and still falling? Will he explain that to us as he slates the former Government? Nick Boles: I completely agree with my hon. Friend’s description of the effect of the previous Government’s Nick Boles: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his policies on the green belt and elsewhere. intervention. The Government’s policies are very clear. We need a positive strategy for renewable energy. To return to the difficult planning balance to be struck on renewable energy, I hope that hon. Members However, I assure hon. Members that there is a clear and others are encouraged by the call for evidence from policy on how individual applications should be decided. the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change. Policies should be designed to ensure that adverse impacts When I visit the Planning Inspectorate for the first time are addressed satisfactorily, and planning applications next week, I will be happy to ensure that it is aware of for renewable energy should only be approved if the the call for evidence, and that the result of that call is impacts are, or can be made, acceptable. My hon. taken into account in the inspectorate’s judgments on Friend the Member for Sherwood is an indefatigable how the impacts on communities are being managed, campaigner on this issue, and I am very aware that he, I, and whether those impacts have been managed satisfactorily and many hon. Members on both sides of the House before granting planning permission. represent people who do not feel that all decisions— particularly about wind farms, but the point also applies On the other hand, I do not want to be disingenuous. to other renewable energy uses—have dealt satisfactorily I do not believe that the Government can move to a with those impacts. position where wind farms are built with no objections from people who live nearby. I have a lot of sympathy Hon. Members will be delighted to hear that the for the attempts by Lincolnshire and others to define Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change acceptable boundaries. It is right that things are dealt recently launched a consultation and a call for evidence with case by case, because sometimes the distance can on how developers are engaging with local communities, be more disturbing in a flat area of the country, as and in particular, on how developers of wind farms and Lincolnshire largely is, than it would be in a hilly area. other renewable energy sites are sharing the benefits of Although the wind farm might be close, there might those sites with local communities. A lot of lessons well be a hill in between. It is not right for the Government from elsewhere in Europe show that sharing the benefits to have blanket policies on such subjects, but the impacts is a good way to secure local consent for developments should be properly assessed and accounted for in the that are otherwise justifiable. decision making of planning authorities and the Planning Roberta Blackman-Woods: The Minister was in safer Inspectorate. territory when he was praising the previous Government I move on to the contribution made by the hon. for protecting not only green spaces, but the green belt Member for City of Durham. Mr Streeter, you may from development. We all accept that the planning have heard, as I did, the Prime Minister’s excellent community now thinks that under the present Government speech to the Conservative party conference, in which brownfield protection has been watered down, not he talked of the “party of one notion”—that is, the strengthened. He was, however, getting to the heart of hon. Lady’s party—and that notion was of course, what we are discussing. I am not clear that what he is borrowing. The Prime Minister is right to say that suggesting will help local communities and authorities— borrowing is the ready stand-by of the Labour party in faced with a market that is promoting the use of land response to any issue. for renewable energy—to decide on other uses, particularly In planning, borrowing has a slightly smaller role to in relation to more land being given over to food play, but a couple of other notions are the ready stand-bys production. How will the Government help local authorities of a Labour Government and Labour Ministers when and the Planning Inspectorate make those difficult confronted with any planning question. The hon. Lady decisions? is no exception; she calls for more guidance, more targets, and more direction of local communities, so Nick Boles: The hon. Lady is quite wrong; I never that they know what is good for them. Well, I am praised the previous Government for what they did to delighted to say that Lord Taylor, the Member of the protect the green belt. They only ended up doing so by House of Lords whom the hon. Member for Ogmore completely failing to build any houses and failing to (Huw Irranca-Davies) congratulated on work for the meet the nation’s housing need, thus landing the previous Government, is conducting a review of planning Government with the difficult task of maintaining guidance. The aim is to reduce the guidance for local protections for the green belt and precious open land, authorities from 6,000 pages, which the hon. Lady while also increasing the rate of house building. As in clearly feels is insufficient, to something more manageable. so many other areas, we are trying to clear up the mess I look forward to receiving the results of that work. that Labour created. In conclusion, my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood Mr Spencer: I share the Minister’s experience, certainly spoke of the importance of diversification in the agricultural with regards to Nottinghamshire. The regional spatial sector, and of farmers being left to make their own strategy, which was the flagship for development under decisions, while not being skewed excessively by the the previous Government, put enormous pressure on interventions and subsidies provided by Government 87WH Food Prices (Planning Policy) 17 OCTOBER 2012 88WH and other branches. He left us with a particularly appealing Plastic Bags image of natural, green cemeteries where people can be buried and which support a flock of sheep. As a son of a sheep farmer, I cannot think of any better way of 10.58 am ending my physical existence than as nutrition for high- quality grazing for sheep. Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con): Thank you, Mr Streeter. It is a pleasure to serve under your Mr Gary Streeter (in the Chair): We move to our next chairmanship this morning. I will make a short speech debate, on the important subject of Government policy and allow as much time as possible for interventions, as on plastic bags. a number of hon. Members have expressed an interest in the debate. I am also glad that our new Farming Minister is here on behalf of his ministerial colleague, the noble Lord, Lord de Mauley. I know that the Liberal Democrats have taken a positive stance on the issue of plastic bags. The House will be aware of my early-day motion 534 with the catchy title of “Plastic Bags”. Essentially, it backs the Break the Bag Habit campaign, which involves a wide coalition of organisations, including the Campaign to Protect Rural England, the Keep Britain Tidy campaign, the Marine Conservation Society, Surfers Against Sewage, and Greener upon Thames, which was born in my constituency. That coalition calls for the introduction of a charge on single-use carrier bags. Before explaining why that is important, I want to stress that it would be a levy and not a tax. It would be collected locally and distributed to local causes, and because there is zero need to purchase a plastic bag, except in a few circumstances, the levy would also be easy to avoid. There is also no prospect of its becoming another green stealth tax, and the approach is broadly supported by the retailers. I have received a note from the British Retail Consortium, which has couched its support in cautious language. However, in August 2012, it also said that “if England wishes to follow the approach of the other UK Governments to achieve greater reductions” in carrier bag usage “it will have to introduce legislation and a charge as there is a limit to what can be achieved on a voluntary basis.”

Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): I welcome the fact that the hon. Gentleman has secured a debate on this incredibly important issue. Does he believe that the levy or, as some people like to describe it, the tax should be paid principally by the retailer demanding the bags and the advertising, or should it be passed on to the consumer? That, I think, is where this measure will stand or fall.

Zac Goldsmith: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I shall come back to what the levy would look like in ideal circumstances. I will deal with his point, but I shall come on to it. To step back for a second, I should say that we are an extraordinarily wasteful country. We generate enough waste every hour to fill the Albert hall right to the tip of its dome. Plastic bags do not constitute the majority of our waste, but of all the waste that we do generate, the plastic bag is surely the most idiotic.

Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): Does my hon. Friend agree that only 0.2% of average household dustbin waste consists of plastic carrier bags and that therefore the measures that he is proposing would be unlikely to 89WH Plastic Bags17 OCTOBER 2012 Plastic Bags 90WH

[Mark Pawsey] implemented, shows that it has managed to reduce the use of plastic bags by up to 95%? It also has 70% have a significant impact on the amount of waste support among the general population. If the Government generated? The figure of 0.2% comes from an assessment care about evidence, there is a lot to support the tax. by the Treasury in 2002. Zac Goldsmith: I thank the hon. Lady for her Zac Goldsmith: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I absolutely agree with her—indeed, she intervention. I am told that the figure is closer to 1.5%, has taken the words out of my mouth. I shall come to but I shall not quibble with what he says. However, I do the Welsh example very soon. not see that as an argument against a measure to reduce Just to continue on the basic statistics, a 2006 UN the use of plastic bags. Plastic bags have a disproportionate report estimated that on every square mile of ocean, impact. We are told that 16% of all the animals that are there are 46,000 pieces of plastic debris floating around. found dead on the coast are dead as a result of their They are not all plastic bags, but a great many are. The interaction with plastic bags. The plastic bag has a plastic does not disappear, even when eaten; it does not hugely disproportionate impact in the wider marine break down. When a creature has ingested a plastic bag, environment and in terms of littering and so on. Yes, I the creature itself decays faster than the bag. When the accept that plastic bags are not the whole waste story in body of the creature breaks down after death, the bag is this country, but they are certainly a big part of it. likely to be released back into the environment and can be reingested—recycled—continuously. The plastic bag Mark Pawsey: Does my hon. Friend agree with David has been described as a serial killer for that reason. Laist of the Marine Mammal Commission in the United The Minister will know that many countries and States? He wrote in March 2008: regions around the world have already sought to address “Plastic bags don’t figure in entanglement. The main culprits this appalling waste. We heard about the example of are fishing gear, ropes, lines and strapping bands. Most mammals are too big to get caught up in a plastic bag…For birds, plastic Wales, but there are many beyond our shores. California, bags are not a problem either.” Bangladesh, Rwanda, South Africa, Botswana, Kenya, parts of India, Taiwan and parts of China have all The environmental impact is, in many instances, overstated. introduced outright bans. Others have introduced levies. In Ireland, which is one of the best examples, a bag tax, Zac Goldsmith: I shall provide a few examples of why introduced in 2002, has led to a reported 90% reduction I do not accept that. I remind my hon. Friend that I did in the number of plastic bags used. say that 16%, not 100%, of the animals found washed up on the coast that have died as a result of waste have died as a result of their interaction with plastic bags. It Mark Pawsey: I thank my hon. Friend for giving way is still a significant number. I shall come to that issue in again; he is being extremely generous. He spoke about a second. the reuse of plastic bags and the fact that only a small proportion are recycled. Does he accept, however, that Despite this being described as a minority or a small many plastic carrier bags are used by consumers for issue, every year 8 billion bags are used and thrown other purposes? Immediately after the tax was introduced away in the UK. Throughout the EU, 800,000 tonnes of in Ireland, there was a 77% increase in pedal bin liner bags are used. Only 6% of those bags are recycled. They sales because consumers did not have plastic carrier are used for an average of 20 minutes and can take bags and an 84% increase in disposable nappy bag sales. anything up to 1,000 years to decompose. The vast The bags are being put to other uses. If we reduce the majority will end up in landfill. Hundreds of millions use of plastic carrier bags, we will simply encourage will litter the countryside, and many will end up in the people to buy plastic bags from other sources to do the oceans. jobs that carrier bags are currently fulfilling. It is an appalling thought—I mentioned this to pupils at a school a few weeks ago—that if Columbus had Zac Goldsmith: I am just looking at the statistic; I dropped plastic bags over the side of his ship 500 years anticipated that this might come up. There were indeed ago, there is a pretty good chance that they would still reports of a 77% increase in the sale of plastic kitchen be floating around intact today. Thousands of sea turtles, bags as a result of the initiative introduced in Ireland. whales and countless other species mistake the bags for That equates to 70 million bags—a lot of bags—but the food and, once ingested, they block the animal’s insides net effect is still a 930 million reduction, so the net effect and cause a horrible death. is clearly beneficial in terms of reducing the use of I am sure that hon. Members remember that in 2006 plastic bags. a Northern bottlenose whale swam past this very building. Yes, there would be some perverse outcomes. It is also Unfortunately, it died. It was in serious trouble, for all the case that in Wales there are certain exemptions in kinds of reasons, but when it was cut open in the relation to prescription drugs, raw food and so on. autopsy, it was discovered that its stomach was packed There are any number of ways in which the measure with plastic debris. Unfortunately, the bags did not have could be brought in. I intended to talk about Wales, but a logo on them, so we cannot blame the individual the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) companies, but plastic was a major contributing factor. has already given the key stats. The initiative there is a work in progress—it is relatively new—but it seems to Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): The hon. be working. It is wildly popular: 20% more popular now Gentleman is making a compelling case. Does he agree than when the idea was originally floated. There are that if the Government care about evidence-based policy, varying statistics on its success, but no one can argue as I am sure they do, the evidence coming from, among that it has not been a success. The question is how much other places, Wales, where the tax has already been of a success it has been. 91WH Plastic Bags17 OCTOBER 2012 Plastic Bags 92WH

We are, unfortunately, miles behind in this country. by the shops themselves, the community or a combination There are pockets of good news locally. In Kew in my of both. There are any number of ways to spend the own constituency, the majority of local shops have money. pledged not to use plastic bags and are doing everything I will end with some questions. Can the Minister tell that they can either to get them out of the shop altogether us the Government’s reaction to the first year of a bag or to encourage people not to use them. Even Tesco—after charge in Wales? Have he or his colleagues met the some imaginative campaigning by local school pupils— Welsh Environment Minister to discuss how the charge eventually, reluctantly, was dragged into the campaign. has worked? According to the Welsh Government, the That involved a gang of local schoolchildren storming scheme has reduced single-use carrier bags by up to the local Tesco, unwrapping all the unnecessary packaging 96% in some retail sectors. A recent survey has shown and demanding that it never use another plastic bag. We that 70% of people in Wales are in favour of the new almost ended up in jail—I was the only one of the right system following its introduction. Crucially, the proceeds age—but it seems to have had an impact and it was a go to charity. The Royal Society for the Protection of wonderful thing. I encourage hon. Members to go on Birds and Keep Wales Tidy have already received a total YouTube and have a look, because it was all filmed. It of £800,000 since the charge was introduced. was a lovely example of what can be achieved. Will the Minister confirm that the introduction of Nationally, we are still waiting for action. On such a charge would require secondary legislation only? 29 September last year, in an interview with the Daily What would the process be and how long would it take Mail, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister gave the to get a charge up and running, using powers under the supermarkets an ultimatum. He warned that if stores Climate Change Act 2008? The Under-Secretary of did not deliver “significant falls” over the next 12 months, State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the they could either be banned outright from giving out hon. Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon), stated single-use bags or be legally required to charge customers last year that we could expect the Government to decide for them. The Prime Minister said that it was in 2012 whether they would introduce a charge in “unacceptable” that the number of single-use carrier England. What is the Government’s timetable for bags had risen in the previous year by 333 million—a considering it now? The Government’s waste review 5% increase. In July this year, despite the Prime Minister’s states that there are demand for “significant falls”, the official figures showed “a number of small levers which we can pull in order to deliver another increase—a 5.4% rise during 2011 compared long-term change.” with the previous year. We are heading in the wrong Does the Minister agree that a bag charge is one such direction and have been for some years, and the Prime small lever? Will he commit to bringing forward legislative Minister is clearly now under pressure to act. proposals? In short, does he agree that it is time for the Government to act? Mark Pawsey: As I said, my hon. Friend is being extremely generous with his time. I am grateful to him 11.11 am for allowing me to present the alternative case. One The Minister of State, Department for Environment, issue on which we might agree is the need for voluntary Food and Rural Affairs (Mr David Heath): It is a pleasure action. Does he accept that from a peak of 13 billion to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter. bags a year, the UK’s consumption has halved over time, that that has all happened through voluntary I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond action and that this issue would be better dealt with by Park (Zac Goldsmith) on securing this important debate continuing that voluntary approach? and on how he introduced it. I found it useful that other hon. Members who wished to take part were able to intervene on him, so that there was a genuine debate Zac Goldsmith: I thank my hon. Friend for his rather than simply a dialogue between the two of us. intervention. I believe that the position is that there has I have had form on this issue going back a long been a 36% reduction since 2006; at least, that is the time—to before I was a Minister, when I worked for figure that I was given by the British Retail Consortium. environmental non-governmental organisations. I hope Nevertheless, that trend has not continued. There was a that my hon. Friend will appreciate that I am aware of rapid downward trend initially, after the initiative was the problem and eager to do something about it—and launched, but over the past three years the trend has that goes for the Government, too. been considerably reversed and there is nothing to The Government are committed to promoting a strong suggest that it will not continue to be reversed. When and growing economy in which all resources are fully we compare that with initiatives in other countries—we valued and waste is minimised. That is good for business have heard about Wales, Ireland and many others—we and good for the environment. To achieve it, everyone see that we can do a whole lot better. has a role to play. That is true across the whole waste What line should the Government take? It boils down agenda, but nowhere more so, I suspect, than in relation to three choices: a ban, a central tax or a Welsh-style to single-use carrier bags. We all have the opportunity charge. A ban is probably too crude; although there are to change our behaviour to ensure that fewer bags end strong arguments in its favour, it is not what we are up in landfill or as litter. asking for today. Despite the temptations for the Treasury, I hope that the Government will resist introducing a Mark Pawsey: Does the Minister acknowledge that tax. There is no support or appetite for anything that plastic carrier bags are part of an important industry? could become a stealth tax. The alternative is a light-touch The packaging industry employs 85,000 people in the levy applied in the shops with the funds raised distributed UK, is responsible for a turnover of £11 billion and to local causes, which could be identified, if necessary, represents 3% of the manufacturing industry. 93WH Plastic Bags17 OCTOBER 2012 Plastic Bags 94WH

Mr Heath: Of course I appreciate that, which is why I We have made some progress in recent years. The first made the point in my opening remarks about the balance voluntary agreement with retailers between 2006 and between the economy and the environment. We can 2008, which has been mentioned, reduced the overall secure a successful synthesis of the two. environmental impact of carrier bags by about 40%. Signatories to the agreement encouraged the reuse of Zac Goldsmith: I want to add to the point made by carrier bags, increased their recycled content and reduced my hon. Friend the Member for Rugby (Mark Pawsey). their weight, among other measures. A second agreement Of the bags used in this country, 90% are manufactured with supermarkets between 2006 and 2009 focused on in Asia, not the UK. reducing the number of bags distributed, and achieved a total reduction of 48% against the 2006 baseline. That Mr Heath: This is a very instructive debate. Members is progress. We should not forget that. have come armed with a huge number of statistics that Supermarkets and shoppers pulled together to reduce they are happy to trade across the Floor, which is all to the number of carrier bags they were using. Despite the benefit of the debate. some evidence of a reversal in the trend, the latest We all have the opportunity to change our behaviour figures, for 2011, show an overall decline in bag usage of to ensure that fewer bags end up in landfill or as litter. 32% compared with 2006. I hear what my hon. Friend Notwithstanding the point made by my hon. Friend the the Member for Rugby said about the contribution that Member for Rugby, reducing the number of bags that carrier bags make to landfill. He is right that they are we use would be a step towards more responsible living not a large part of the total waste stream, but it is not that also encourages people to think about the resources possible to argue that plastic bags, particularly when that we use. Aside from the potential ecological problems they litter our towns and countryside, are not an unwanted such bags cause when disposed of irresponsibly, it is eyesore. They represent 72,000 tonnes of waste entering incredibly wasteful to produce billions of them each the waste stream. year to be discarded after a single use. We continue to Aside from the impact that carrier bags have on encourage the reuse of bags wherever possible. wildlife, marine environments and our countryside and All bags have an environmental impact, irrespective coast, no one travelling around our countryside wishes of their composition. Reusing them as many times as to see carrier bags in the trees or floating down the possible and disposing of them appropriately when they lanes. It is all avoidable if we, the public and retailers do cannot be used any more minimises that impact. the right thing by reducing the use of single-use bags. We all have a part to play. Caroline Lucas rose— Some retailers are taking positive action, with initiatives such as voluntary charging, rewarding shoppers for reusing bags by awarding loyalty points, offering front- Mr Heath: The hon. Lady wants to intervene. I shall of-store recycling and increasing the amount of recycled let her do so before I continue. content in the bags. Although recycling is further down the waste hierarchy, after prevention and reuse, it is still Caroline Lucas I thank the Minister for allowing me important to improve recycling rates for carrier bags, to intervene. I was being a little impatient, because he because it also helps to reduce the overall environmental said that he encourages people to reduce waste and not impact and makes use of a valuable resource. I am use plastic bags. Could he concretely say how that pleased to see that the number of shops offering front- encouragement finds its way down to ordinary people? of-store recycling facilities for bags has increased, but I It is true that they have the opportunity to reduce waste, would like more to do so. I hope that more retailers, but they are not doing it enough. particularly the big ones, will be prepared to take up that challenge. Mr Heath: They are not, and I will return to that in a moment. Zac Goldsmith: A number of stores, including WH There are those who are clear about their obligations Smith, Marks and Spencer, Ikea and Lidl, have already and will use reusable bags whenever they have the introduced charges for carrier bags. Is there evidence opportunity. There are some who it will always be from their initiatives to suggest that there are any perverse difficult to reach, because they simply do not want to or unwanted outcomes from such a charge? hear the message. Then there are what I call the “guilty middle”; they will use reusable bags, and want to do so, Mr Heath: I am not aware of any, but a lot of work is whenever they can, but they sometimes turn up—as, I being done to look at all the evidence because we want confess, I occasionally do—at a supermarket and find to get the policy right and to make a really effective that they have forgotten the bag that they intended to contribution. I will come back to the Government’s take and have to take a plastic bag. The sort of measure position in a moment, but may I just say that that is part that my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park of the evidence-gathering process in which we are engaged? proposes might affect that large, guilty group in the Let me go back to the point about how we behave. On middle, who want to do the right thing and feel guilty average, shoppers take three to four new bags every time when they do not. they go out shopping, and most of them have a large We have had lots of figures already, so I will add a store of bags at home, often under the kitchen sink, few more. In 2011, around 8 billion thin-gauge plastic which they could take with them and reuse. We need not carrier bags—single-use carrier bags—were issued in only to reuse bags, but to reduce the number of new the UK. If you include reusable bags, such as bags-for-life, bags that we take and to use bags that have a longer life. the total figure is about 8.4 billion bags issued in the All those things put together are the actions of a UK. Obviously, that is a very large number. responsible citizen. None the less, I recognise that we 95WH Plastic Bags17 OCTOBER 2012 Plastic Bags 96WH are all fallible. I would hate to be accused of being a Mr Heath: I will not give a firm answer to that, hypocrite on these matters, because I know that someone because we want to look at the data, but I hope that we will spot me taking a bag in Sainsbury’s in Frome next will be able to make an early evaluation of the data. week and say, “You said that we shouldn’t be doing Once we are clear that we have a full-year set of data that.” I will have to say, “Yes, and you are right; I and we are convinced that the effect is beneficial, we can shouldn’t be doing this and I wish that I had remembered make a firm decision, and I do expect that to be sooner to bring a bag from home.” rather than later. Obviously, that falls short of the sort Let me address the specific points that have been of commitment on timing that the hon. Lady wants. raised. A question that was asked by my hon. Friend My hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park and echoed by the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion asked about the small levers that can be used. He is (Caroline Lucas) was about the Government’s reaction right. This provision is one lever among many that we to the first year of bag charges in Wales. The results so can take. If we find that it is efficacious to go forward far look positive. I hope that when we have looked at the on the basis of a proposal—it will be based on the full year’s results we will see that they are very positive evidence that the hon. Lady has asked for and that we indeed. We are certainly monitoring the results. When are committed to securing—similar to what exists in we are clear that we have robust data, we can then base Wales, we will use it as a lever to long-term change. any decisions on them. There are other things that can be done as well. We would never want to rely on one mechanism and eliminate all others. Mark Pawsey: Will the Minister in his evaluation take account of the additional bag purchases that will Zac Goldsmith: If, after studying the Welsh experiment, take place in Wales as a consequence of people not the effect is deemed to have produced a net good, both having that stock of unused carrier bags under the sink? in terms of a reduction and the other considerations In resource terms, the fact that people will be buying that have been mentioned today, is that the bar that we other products should be taken into account. need to cross for our Government to pursue the same course of action? In other words, how much does this Mr Heath: It should be. My hon. Friend is giving an Government’s decision depend on the results in Wales? example of exactly why we need to look at the results in the round rather than at a simple indicator. Let us do Mr Heath: It is one area of data on which we can that and let us be convinced, if convinced we are, that base intelligent decisions. We do not only want to see what has happened in Wales is the right way to approach whether there is a direct correlation between the activity the issue. We will also consider the Scottish consultation there and the number of single-use bags that have been on change, which closed on 28 September, and discuss used. For example, has the initiative simply prevented the matter with our colleagues in Scotland. We will people from using single-use bags and led them to buy a balance the benefits of any change with the real, but bag for life every time they go to a supermarket? If that avoidable, effect on household budgets to ensure that was the consequence, that would be a worse outcome, we get the right option. despite the fact that the statistics on single-use bags My hon. Friend the Member for Richmond Park would be beneficial. I am suggesting not that that will asked me whether I had met the Welsh Environment be the outcome, but that it is a slightly more complex Minister, and the answer is that I have not, but my hon. picture, and we are genuine in wanting to examine the Friend will accept, I think, that I would not be expected outcomes before we come to a policy decision. Such a to have such a meeting because that would be the job of decision will have an impact on the consumer, on retailers my noble Friend, Lord de Mauley. In fact, it was Lord and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Rugby has said, de Mauley’s predecessor in the Department, Lord Taylor, on manufacturers, so we must get it right. We want to who met John Griffiths in July 2012 to discuss the achieve a beneficial outcome for the use of scarce matter. resources and for the environment. That is our intention as a Department and that is the basis on which we will My hon. Friend asked me whether I could confirm finally reach a conclusion. that the introduction of a charge would only require I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond secondary legislation. If we did take such action, it Park for securing this debate and every Member for would be from powers that stem from section 77 of the their contributions. I hope that I have responded to the Climate Change Act 2008, which makes provision for points that have been made in a reasonable way. I will charges for single-use carrier bags. Therefore, in England, pass on my hon. Friend’s comments to my colleague, we could introduce such a charge through secondary Lord de Mauley, for his consideration. I am sure that legislation, but it would be subject to a consultation my hon. Friend’s early-day motion will continue to process because that is the mechanism of government. attract signatures. We will take into account all the factors involved before reaching a final decision, which Caroline Lucas: Will the Minister say when we can I hope we will be in a position to make once we have all look forward to a decision coming from Government? the information at our disposal. He has explained that it is right to evaluate the experience in Wales. Could we therefore expect some kind of 11.28 am Government decision early next year? Sitting suspended. 97WH 17 OCTOBER 2012 Criminal Justice System 98WH

Criminal Justice System details about the timing of his release, which left her feeling extremely vulnerable in respect of a person who had already made threats to her well-being. [MRS LINDA RIORDAN in the Chair] More generally, the courts themselves come in for criticism. We recently heard of Peter Bowers, a High 2.30 pm Court judge in Teesside, who described a burglar as Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab): It is a pleasure needing courage to burgle; many people feel that it to be here under your chairmanship, Mrs Riordan. The might need courage to lie in bed listening to a burglar subject of the debate is victims and their treatment in invading their house. Most of us do not feel that that is the criminal justice system. an acceptable way of describing a burglar. There is dissatisfaction, therefore, with the way in which the There is increasing satisfaction with our police force. courts deal with cases, from the relatively serious to the My own force in Greater Manchester claims that most serious. independent surveys show an 85% satisfaction level with what it is doing. Nevertheless, the fact that there is Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) a 15% gap indicates that things go wrong. Many Members (Con): The daughter of a family in my constituency, of Parliament are here for this debate. When things go Charlotte Whitby—they have allowed me to name her—was wrong, victims feel abandoned by the system, and most killed getting off a school bus. The family could not MPs’ caseloads testify to that. understand two things: first, the lack of prosecutions I recently conducted a survey across Greater Manchester. across the United Kingdom; and secondly, much more Surveys can be partial, and the people who respond will importantly, the lenient sentencing, which the hon. have a strong motive to respond. Nevertheless, the Gentleman is alluding to. I do not think anyone in this dissatisfaction level was quite high. A quarter of the House would disagree that there is a problem, but people who responded felt that they had not been perhaps the hon. Gentleman will dwell on the point that treated well by the police or the criminal justice system. people are getting away with murder—literally. That is a worrying figure. I must pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member Tony Lloyd: Killing somebody in the workplace or for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael)—joint with a vehicle, if I am not in danger of trivialising it, signature on the application for this debate—for his would be an extremely intelligent way to go about work on behalf of victims in his years as a Home Office despatching another human being. The horrible reality Minister. He was part of moving the whole agenda in cases such as the hon. Gentleman’s constituent’s is forward. that there is now a family who will grieve for ever and I want to talk about a few cases that have affected who feel that there is no justice in the system. I have constituents. A woman living on her own found a mallet enormous sympathy for him and particularly for his on her garden fence with a threatening and menacing constituent. note. When she contacted the police, they said they would send somebody round, as they should in a case Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I such as that. However, the police officer did not turn up congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important on time. When I intervened, the police turned up, but a debate. On the courts and the criminal justice system, single woman who is threatened should not require the does he accept that some good systems are used in the intervention of a Member of Parliament to get the criminal justice system to have the views of victims police to respond. accounted for? For example, the victim impact statement One of my daughters—I was with her at the time—had must be taken before judges prior to sentences being a dog that was attacked by another dog. A dog-on-dog passed. attack does not make the national news, but had that dog attacked a child it would have been a much more Tony Lloyd: Yes, and that is fine. I totally agree with serious event. The police took the matter seriously, but victim impact statements. The only problem is that they two months after its having been reported they have not are not compulsory and not always requested. We know come back to my daughter with an update. Not coming that victims sometimes complain that they are under back is probably the single most common complaint pressure to produce a statement that does not reflect that my constituents raise with me. what they really feel to be the impact. The hon. Gentleman There are problems elsewhere in the criminal justice is absolutely right in saying that that is the direction of system. One of my constituents had to wait for nearly travel that we have to take, but I think we have to go a two years before her case, which involved violence from lot further. I will certainly make that point later. a neighbouring family against her and her family, came Sir Paul Stephenson, the former Metropolitan Police to court. The housing association would not move Commissioner, recently made some caustic statements either the complainant family or those who were being about his own stewardship of policing and of policing complained about until the matter had gone to court. more generally. He was highly critical in saying that For two years, this family lived with pressure from their burglary is often not dealt with as severely as he felt it neighbours while they waited for the Crown Prosecution should be. He asked himself whether he had always Service to take the matter to court. dealt with it properly in his policing career. I had another case of a constituent whose ex-partner It is certainly right to point out that many people was in prison for beating her very badly. While in think burglary is a very serious crime. Sir Paul Stephenson prison, he threatened to kill her. She was told through described it as invasive. He is right; it is invasive of other sources that he was due for imminent release, but people’s privacy and people’s lifestyles. Astonishingly, the probation service would not give me or her any such an invasion of personal property and lifestyle sees 99WH Criminal Justice System17 OCTOBER 2012 Criminal Justice System 100WH more than half of those convicted receiving non-custodial those who live elsewhere. I know that my hon. Friend sentences. Those non-custodial sentences are also relevant the Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) will want to a crime, which, in Greater Manchester, has a clear-up to speak more on that issue. rate of less than 17%. Only one in six crimes is cleared We have to change the culture with respect to sexual up, and that does not necessarily include coming to exploitation, especially of children, domestic violence, court. Of those convicted, fewer than half receive a sexual violence and even stalking, because they cause custodial sentence. We then wonder what signal that real misery, destroy lives and, in the end, can lead to the sends out to the wider community—to those who do most serious of crimes, up to and including murder. not want to be burgled and those who want to burgle. The culture that says that such crimes do not matter or There is a real issue. that allows them to slip through has got to change, I recently had an interesting conversation with somebody whether that happens through the police, the Crown who has long experience of sentencing. He told me that Prosecution Service or the local authorities. he faces a regular dilemma. He works on the basis that non-custodial sentences are worth while; they can definitely Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): I congratulate perform a valuable part of the process. Nevertheless, if the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate and I fully he feels that non-custodial sentences are not sufficient endorse what he is saying, especially on domestic violence to offer proper restitution to the victim or do not offer and child sexual exploitation. On sentencing, which he any element of proper and legitimate punishment, he has touched on, constituents of mine, John and Penny finds himself imposing custodial sentences in cases in Clough, set up the Justice for Jane campaign following which he would sometimes prefer not to. That is something the brutal murder of their daughter, Jane Clough, who we need to look at. If we are going to have a range of was a nurse. She was murdered in a hospital car park by sentencing, we need to make sure that there is sufficient her former partner and rapist Jonathan Vass, who was severity in the whole system. We need to look at sentencing released on bail by a judge. One of the things that they as well. found most hurtful was the fact that he was only sentenced Let me turn to those crimes that, although serious, as a murderer; he was never sentenced as a rapist and a have not received full-hearted emphasis throughout the murderer. Those cases were left to lie on file. Will the criminal justice system. I refer in the most serious areas hon. Gentleman join me in praising the efforts of John to sexual violence, rape, the sexual exploitation of children, and Penny in talking to Keir Starmer and the Crown domestic violence and even bullying and antisocial Prosecution Service to ensure that severe charges such behaviour. Let me cite, as an example, the recent case of as rape are not simply left on a shelf and that people David Askew in Greater Manchester. Although he probably such as Vass are not able to cover their crimes by died of natural causes, there is almost no doubt in murdering the only witness? everyone’s mind that those natural causes were brought on by a consistent campaign of bullying that he had Tony Lloyd: The hon. Gentleman makes a valid point. received from local youths, but no one took it seriously. John and Penny have persuaded Keir Starmer that no With hindsight, people have said that had the various longer should things simply lie on file. What is clear is agencies—the social services, the children’s services and that there was a case to be tried. It would have gone to the police—shared the information base about the bullying, trial had the subsequent murder not taken place. It is it would have triggered some sort of response. At no distressing for the family. I can understand that not only point, however, did it trigger a response, which left as a father but as a citizen. David Askew to spend years of his life in a degree of misery that he should not have had to put up with. It is On stalking, half the people who are stalked will have wrong to say that bullying is not very serious; it is been stalked for more than 18 months before anything serious, as is antisocial behaviour. We must see antisocial is done about it, so many events in their lives will cause behaviour as being central to the type of society in them both fear and misery. In the worst cases, stalking which we live. We cannot have no-go areas in which has led to much more serious offences, such as rape and antisocial behaviour is accepted as legitimate. murder. We also know that the probability of someone being brought to prosecution for stalking is still It is also worth reflecting on the comparison between phenomenally low. Even in the event of prosecution, the celebrated cases of sexual exploitation of children only about 2.2% of those involved in this serious crime in Rochdale and the situation of Jimmy Savile. I want to end up with a jail sentence. Again, we must change the place it on the record that, although the English Defence culture that allows that to take place. League took it on itself to protest enormously about the situation in Rochdale—it is right that there should There are examples of extremely good police have been real concern there—it has not protested in performance. I had a meeting recently with women who the same way about Jimmy Savile. Sexual exploitation is had been victims of, or involved with, domestic violence. about not the ethnicity or the cultural background of One person, who was the victim of a violent attack by those involved but criminal behaviour, and criminal her ex-partner, said that she wanted to place it on the behaviour, whether by the Jimmy Saviles of this world record that her own experience of the police, the refuge or by Rochdale taxi drivers, is something that we must that gave her shelter, the Crown Prosecution Service prosecute and pursue. and other services had been good. In the same meeting, another woman told me that when she lay on the floor In all those cases, the culture of the criminal justice waiting for an ambulance to be called, she heard police system is such that it did not take seriously the position officers joking with her partner, which simply should of victims. The young women in Rochdale were described not happen in this day and age. Our police need specialist as from a council estate. I cannot accept that there training for domestic violence and stalking, but it is is a council estate definition of acceptable crime versus not unreasonable to say that it should be there for all. 101WH Criminal Justice System17 OCTOBER 2012 Criminal Justice System 102WH

[Tony Lloyd] Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): My hon. Friend is being very generous with his time. I Whoever polices or prosecutes domestic violence must want to add to his comments about the concern that so treat that crime as something that matters, and the many people outside this place feel about the Government’s criminal justice system must help to resolve the problems. plans for the criminal injuries compensation scheme. I Let me move on because I am conscious of the want to ask him about a particular point in the plans number of Members who wish to speak. The Minister that we saw before and about the fears that people have will recall the debate a few weeks ago on criminal regarding any new plans. The Government intended to injuries compensation. I am sure that she will tell us withdraw compensation from anyone attacked by a that the Government are funding victim services in dog. In my constituency, I meet many constituents who whatever way. None the less, there is still great anxiety have been attacked by a dog; we suffered the death of a about the criminal injuries compensation scheme and child in my constituency because of a dangerous dog. what will happen to it. I hope today that she will take Last year alone, we saw a 5% increase in the number of the chance to clarify the Government’s intentions on people being hospitalised because of dangerous dog the matter. There is massive interest outside in what is attacks: just under 6,500 people were admitted to hospital happening. There is massive interest, too, in Parliament. last year, of whom one in six was a child. Does my hon. I do not say this as a warning, but I hope that she has Friend share my view that if the Government again been able to tell her colleagues in Government that her bring forward a proposal in this area, after all the own experience in that debate was a little unfair on her concerns that have been raised, people should still continue but was not unfair in the spirit of what she inherited to receive compensation if they are attacked by a dog? from her predecessors. We need some clarification that we will have a robust criminal injuries compensation Tony Lloyd: My hon. Friend is right. Dog attacks are system that survives any proposed changes. clearly a major concern for groups such as people who work for the Royal Mail. Like the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers, the Communication Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): I congratulate Workers Union has campaigned strongly on the issue. my hon. Friend on calling this enormously important debate. May I underline the importance of the point As I said earlier, I was present when my daughter’s that he has just made? I have never seen so many people dog was attacked recently. In that particular case, I queuing to get in to observe a debate in Westminster actually had to attack the dog. It struck me at the time Hall as I have today. It shows the level of public anxiety. that it was a rather unpleasant dog, and if it had Following the Government’s wise decision to withdraw attacked me, I might have suffered a little, but if it had the statutory instrument, does he agree that when they attacked a child, the child might have suffered considerably. bring back some proposals to the House they need to Compensation is a really serious issue. advertise them within both Houses, so that all Members I want to make a few other points. As we consider can make their voices heard about how unacceptable what we can do for victims, I would be grateful to the the proposed cuts in criminal injuries compensation Minister if she could look at the role of Victim Support. are? Most of us who have experience of its work know that it provides an enormously valuable service. It deals with Tony Lloyd: My right hon. Friend makes an important more than 1 million victims of crime every year, of point. Let me add one extra thing. It would be desirable whom some 80,000 are victims of violent crime and if any such debate were heard on the Floor of the some 8,000 are victims of sexual assault. It also trains House and not simply in a Committee Room, so that some 7,000 people each year. the full House can be persuaded of the merits of any There is a genuine concern at the moment among changes and can vote accordingly. That would be in the those who work for Victim Support, both nationally interests of people up and down the length and breadth and in my own area, about the changes that the Government of this land. are making to funding. Perhaps I should declare an interest at this stage, as a candidate for the role of police Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): I congratulate and crime commissioner for Greater Manchester. The my hon. Friend on securing this debate and the Minister Minister may be surprised to know that although the on taking up her new post. She and I worked on the transfer to police commissioners will go ahead, there is Justice Committee together. I am sure that she is aware concern among people from all parties who are standing that the Government’s proposals on criminal injuries to be police and crime commissioners about whether compensation would mean that more than half of victims the transfer will be fully funded, with full transfer of would get nothing and almost 90% of others would get Victim Support moneys, so that there is no loss of its very little. If the coalition is really serious about victims, services. It is important that we have clarity about that it should scrap the proposals and carry on with the issue, because any loss of funding would not only be current scheme. unfair to those who become commissioners but—much more importantly—it would be unfair to victims if those services were no longer there. We need some Tony Lloyd: I am bound to agree, because I spoke in clarification about that. the debate on the scheme some weeks ago when it struck me as perverse that we talk about things such as 2.53 pm permanent scarring or permanent speech impediments being minor. Many people listening to the debate would Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. conclude that their view of what is minor is not consistent with the changes that the Government are proposing. It 3.20 pm is important that we establish that point. On resuming— 103WH Criminal Justice System17 OCTOBER 2012 Criminal Justice System 104WH

Tony Lloyd: I seem to have been speaking for 50 minutes, interventions accepted stops the clock and the Member according to the clock. It may feel to others that it has who gives way has an extra minute. I remind Members been at least that long. that interventions should be short. The Clerk will ring a In conclusion, I simply say that we need to change the bell when a speaker has one minute left. culture around victim support and put victims at the centre of the criminal justice process. There are some specific points I would like to make to the Minister that 3.24 pm I hope she will pick up. Victims who come to see me as Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): It is a pleasure to serve an MP and those who speak for them, such as Victim under your chairmanship, Mrs Riordan. I welcome this Support, say they want to be treated seriously in the debate and congratulate the hon. Member for Manchester process. They want to be kept in touch with what is Central (Tony Lloyd) on securing it. I feel strongly going on. They want promises made to them kept; for about the victims of crime. I am delighted that the example, people turning up when they say they will and debate is taking place, because for far too long the coming back to them when they say they will. victims of crime have not had their voices heard as they Victims also want to be involved in the process of the should have done. I appreciate there may be many management of the offender. Many victims are more reasons for that. However, this is an opportune debate inclined than the general public to support restorative at a time when the public are quite animated about the justice processes, as long as they are explained properly. elections of police and crime commissioners. There is However, they want to be properly consulted. Victims an opportunity to bring greater focus on victims of understand that restorative justice can work, but they crime. do not like others pressing them to agree to restorative I pay tribute to the excellent work of Victim Support, justice when it is not appropriate; rather, it should particularly for taking the initiative to engage the police simply be an available option. Having agreed to the and crime commissioner candidates of all political restorative justice process, victims particularly do not persuasions, to bring them on board regarding victims’ like finding out that the criminal has been through the services and support and to get them to sign up to the same process on more than one occasion. That says to Victim Support five promises to victims and witnesses them that there is no restoration; it is merely a way of pledge. avoiding the justice process. Victims do not want the police to use cautions as a way of avoiding the criminal Those elected as police and crime commissioners, justice process. It is important to register those points. regardless of their political persuasion, must champion There are sometimes good reasons for police cautions, the rights of victims and put victims first. Once they but they should be used when appropriate and not have a mandate, it would be ridiculous not to do so. I simply as a way to avoid the bureaucracy of the court hope that the Minister, along with police and crime and to save police time. That is not why they were commissioners, can give a commitment to the work of designed. Victim Support and other victims’ organisations, to There are some specifics on which the Minister and which I will refer later, to ensure that victims get the her Department can help victims. The first is to clarify first-class treatment that they deserve and have not had the funding for Victim Support, as I said. The second is previously. to clarify the position of the criminal injuries compensation The Minister will know that, as mentioned by the scheme. The third would be to make a clear statement hon. Member for Manchester Central, last December I about victim and witness statements in court—particularly introduced a ten-minute rule Bill to call for a robust and victim statements—to provide certainty for victims that enforceable code of practice to deliver new rights and the statements will be voluntary and properly elucidated better services for the victims of crime and their families. on behalf of the victim, and that they will be used by There have been far too many gaps and inconsistencies the court to make sense of the damage done to the in the provision of services for victims and their families. victim by the criminal and the crime. Following my Bill, I was delighted to see the Government I support the hon. Member for Witham in her plea take some positive steps forward and introduce the through her recent ten-minute rule Bill. A code for consultation, “Getting it right for victims and witnesses”, victims has to be one with proper backing, not just a which proposed new measures to improve services. form of words. We have had victims’ codes in the past I look to the Minister for an update on when those and, frankly, if they are only codes they are ignored. We measures will be implemented and when the details of need certainty that the victim is given the same rights as the recommendations proposed by the former Victims’ the offender in the criminal justice system. Commissioner, Louise Casey, in her review into the I am grateful, in what will be one of my last contributions needs of families bereaved by homicides will be put into in this great Parliament of ours, to have the privilege to effect. raise the position of victims, who matter so much because crime is still prevalent. We need to change the Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ culture around victims. We can do it, but we need the Co-op): Ten years ago, my constituents, Pat and Ian different agencies to proceed with a sense of urgency. Levy, lost their son, then 16, who was stabbed by a 15-year-old in Hackney. They are very keen to present Several hon. Members rose— their victims’ personal statement in person at his parole hearing. They do not have control over that; it is at Mrs Linda Riordan (in the Chair): Order. As a result the whim of the chair. Even then, they do not get the of the number of Members who wish to speak in the chance to talk more about it; they simply read out debate, I am imposing a time limit of eight minutes. The a statement. I share their concern that that is not a rules are the same as in the House. Each of the first two balance. Will the hon. Lady comment on that? 105WH Criminal Justice System17 OCTOBER 2012 Criminal Justice System 106WH

Priti Patel: I agree. As I have maintained before, there I am proud to say that the needs of victims will be at is disproportion in the system when we hear more about the heart of my approach if I am elected. I want to be the offender than the rights of the bereaved family and precise that a genuine focus on the needs and interests the victims of crime. That horrible example of that of victims must involve putting the victim at the heart brings me to a constituency case of mine. Marie Heath, of the behaviour and performance of the court system an extraordinary lady, faced the terrible ordeal of losing and of every agency in the criminal justice system, as her son, who was brutally murdered in Frankfurt in well as of the police and the rest of our systems of local April 2011. Her family have experienced considerable and national government. We must bear in mind that distress. Those of us who have constituents who have there is an enormous variety of victims, ranging from experienced horrendous crimes can relate and empathise nurses, shopkeepers and police officers to ordinary members with their ordeal. Having to travel two or three times a of the public. Our response must be right in every set of week to Germany since March to be present at the trial, circumstances. Victims’ experiences are often very personal which only concluded last month, brought home the and different. battle that victims and their families have with the system, In my view, four major steps are required to bring particularly if overseas. That highlights the need to about the radical change needed in how we deal with secure resources to help them through the process—raising victims. The first is to act on the wise words given in funds to travel, for example, and hotel costs—while also evidence to the Justice Committee by the then chief looking for the right support. Having seen the Heath executive of Victim Support, who essentially said that family go through that horrific ordeal, I implore the what victims want more than anything else, other than Minister to do what she can. I recognise that she is new not to have become a victim in the first place, is the to her role, and I welcome her. Will she also commit to certainty that it will not happen again. Preventing crime— meet Support after Murder and Manslaughter Abroad— cutting offending and reoffending—is absolutely central another organisation that has done good work in that to meeting the needs of victims. area? That is clear enough in relation to the police. Sir Robert I would also like to highlight another prominent case, Peel said in terms, when he established the first police that of Jeremy Bamber. The Bamber murders took force, that the central purpose of the police was to cut place in my constituency many years ago, causing immense crime—to prevent offending and reoffending. He also distress at the time, as they still do, to the family of the said that the police were the public and the public were victims of that terrible crime. It pains me to mention the police, which must surely mean more than an that there has been some bad history in how the family identification in general terms between the police and have been treated by the Ministry of Justice. Regrettably, the wider community; it must involve a conscious seeking- two years ago, it granted Jeremy Bamber access to the out of the experience of victims, especially those whose media to protest his innocence, despite a number of voices are not easily heard and whose suffering is hidden. unsuccessful applications to the Criminal Cases Review Such victims might be abused children or the victims Commission. No consideration was given to the victims’ of violence against women and girls and other forms of family. In the small village in my constituency where the domestic violence that remain under-reported. They murders took place, unfortunately, every time the might be those suffering in silence who are exploited in gentleman’s name is mentioned in the media, the world’s a variety of ways, those victimised within specific media descend and cause an awful amount of grief for communities by things such as female genital mutilation the family. I hope that the Minister agrees that such or those who suffer the ongoing victimisation of antisocial cases are simply not acceptable. It is awful for victims to behaviour. The police and the public surely have a be treated in that way. They are not kept informed of common interest and a common responsibility in taking what is happening, so the first that they hear about it is the victims’ side. when it lands in the media. The distress that that causes is appalling. That also ought to be the clear purpose of the court system. In my view, it was a missed opportunity when The hon. Member for Manchester Central mentioned the purposes of the Sentencing Council were spelled cases such as domestic abuse and crimes against children. out in legislation. I urge Ministers to put that right now. There are many examples of things going on in this day At the heart of the work of the Sentencing Council and age that put a stain on our justice system. My should be the answer to the question, “What works?” It constituents certainly believe that offenders have a greater is not, but it should be. say. This is about victims. We should all be championing In the Justice Committee report on the role of the victims, while ensuring that offenders pay for their prison officer, we concluded that that role could not be crimes. Serious and persistent offenders should face the clear unless the role and the purpose of prison was necessary sanctions. When the Minister sums up, I clear. The Prison Service, like many other agencies would welcome her thoughts on the areas that I have within the criminal justice system, ends up chasing touched on. Again, I pay tribute to the hon. Member specific targets that have nothing to do with their overall for Manchester Central for securing the debate. aim or purpose or the expectations of the public, which should be to hold prisoners securely and return them to the community less likely to offend, or at the very least 3.31 pm likely to offend less seriously. That must be built into the Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op): granular detail of what we expect. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester The second step is to ensure that the needs and voices Central (Tony Lloyd) on securing this debate. I declare of victims are heard clearly in the court system. Both a similar interest; I have been nominated to stand for this Government and the last have clearly wished victims election as police and crime commissioner in south to be listened to and treated better within the court Wales. system, but that is mostly dealt with through additional 107WH Criminal Justice System17 OCTOBER 2012 Criminal Justice System 108WH requirements, such as victim impact statements and the court system—victims in some cases describe their witness support, which are welcome but do not touch experience in court as being even worse than the original the central purpose of the whole system. I was the first incident or as compounding their suffering—it would Minister to serve on a jury after the legislation changed, be wrong for it to appear that central Government or and it did not enhance my respect for the court system, the court system were unwilling for support to witnesses which seems to be run mainly for lawyers and judges. to be provided through local and independent services. Ministers have made it clear, as we saw at Home Meg Hillier: To return to the situation of the Levy Office questions this week, that the police and crime family, what does my right hon. Friend think could be commissioners should challenge other parts of the criminal done to improve the rights of victims at parole stage as justice system about their work and performance. Being well? The victims are still suffering. My constituents in close contact with support for witnesses surely makes rightly say, “The perpetrator has a lot of people arguing sense in that regard. on his behalf, but the victims have nobody to argue on The fourth necessary step is to listen and learn from their behalf.” They might not even be able to be present the experience of witnesses. In relation to violence in at the parole hearing. Does he have any thoughts on Cardiff, we stopped measuring reports to the police and that? started measuring the experience of victims who had to go to hospital for treatment. As a result, we found that Alun Michael: My hon. Friend is right. The needs many cases were not being reported and that that and interests of victims should be present at every stage needed to change. throughout the court system. I also think that greater The purpose of establishing the crime and disorder use of restorative justice is needed. I was interested to reduction partnerships in the Crime and Disorder Act hear a sergeant in the South Wales police say recently 1998 was to bring in every aspect of the public service to that giving victims the chance to tell the offender in no support the objective of reducing offending and reoffending. uncertain terms how damaging the experience of the That surely has to become the central responsibility of offence had been was, in his words, genuinely life-changing Government, to enable the whole of the criminal justice for the offender. It is not a soft option; it is a hard system to operate much more effectively and in the option, as long as it is done properly, professionally and interests of victims, and to make it a clear priority for with the interests of the victims in mind. the whole of the criminal justice system and every The third step is to provide proper support for victims agency. at every stage. We have built up a powerful victim Changing the focus of the Sentencing Council to support network across the UK. I was involved in the make “what works” its clear priority would be part of establishment of one of the first support schemes in that. The work of the police and crime commissions Cardiff, after the very first had been established in will be extremely challenging, but in the House this Bristol. I pay tribute to how Victim Support, as a week Ministers set very high expectations of how national organisation, has promoted professionalism in commissioners might add value in pursuing the “and recent years among both staff and volunteers in a crime” part of their role. I am pleased they did so, but if superb service. that is to be turned into reality, the direction of the As we see in other fields such as education and whole criminal justice system needs to support that health, there is a necessary tension between the national ambition. dimension, in which standards are established, and local service, which is sensitive to local needs and realities. Mrs Linda Riordan (in the Chair): I am now imposing Now the Government are putting a significant amount a limit on Back-Bench speeches of four minutes. of commissioning in the hands of the new police and crime commissioners. That has introduced an unwelcome 3.41 pm element of uncertainty, but it might work in practice. My commitment, if elected, is to ensure that service to Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): I congratulate victims is enhanced rather than reduced. the hon. Member for Manchester Central (Tony Lloyd) In a reply to my recent question, the Minister for on securing the debate. Hon. Members will be pleased Policing and Criminal Justice, the right hon. Member to hear that I am not running for election as a police for Ashford (Damian Green), promised that more money and crime commissioner. I support fully the passionate rather than less would reach the commissioners in carrying words on behalf of victims that we heard from my hon. out their duties, but there is a worry that support to Friend the Member for Witham (Priti Patel) and many victims might be fragmented from the other service. A others. sentence on the Home Office website states that As treasurer of the all-party parliamentary cycling “the Government will retain responsibility for commissioning group and a keen cyclist, I know many people who have services where there are either proven economies of scale or they been affected by this issue. Today, I would like to talk are genuinely specialist in nature. This includes support for those about vulnerable road users who are victims in our bereaved through homicide, victims of trafficking, rape support system. We need changes right the way through the centres and the witness service”. system, from how cases are investigated, to charging That makes sense for the other specialist services, but standards and the involvement of victims and to sentencing. it is essential that the victim as witness is given a I will start with a chilling statistic. We have now seamless service before, during and after the court reached the 95th cyclist death on the roads in Britain. experience. I hope that the Minister can clarify that and Some 82 of those were caused by collisions with vehicles, guarantee that the witness service will be delegated to and many of those cases are still being investigated. The the police and crime commissioners. Given that the overwhelming majority of deaths to cyclists are caused worst experience for the victim sometimes occurs within by collisions with vehicles, and not because of carelessness. 109WH Criminal Justice System17 OCTOBER 2012 Criminal Justice System 110WH

[Dr Sarah Wollaston] them did. That is totally unacceptable for the families and loved ones of the victims. They feel a deep sense of Indeed, we saw in statistics from Transport for London injustice and unfairness when they see somebody who for last year that only 6% of cyclist deaths were attributable has killed their loved one get off with little more than a to carelessness on their part. The majority were attributed rap on the knuckles. It brings the whole of our criminal to fault by the driver. That needs to be stressed. justice system into disrepute. In many cases, of course, there is not enough evidence I welcome the relatively new Minister, the hon. Member either way, but the majority of deaths are caused by for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant), to her post. motorists, so we need to be very clear about where the I have not had the opportunity to congratulate her balance of fault lies in these instances. If we look at personally because I do not see her anymore around our deaths and serious injuries together, last year 3,192 neighbouring offices. I hope this will not damage her people were killed or seriously injured on our roads. For career, but I was delighted at her well deserved promotion. far too long, justice has been weighted in favour of the I have a number of questions for her; if she cannot motorist. answer them now, I would be grateful if she wrote to Terminology is also an issue. We all refer to road me. traffic accidents, but I put it like this: if a cyclist is killed Has there been any change in the sentencing guidance by a speeding lorry driver on a mobile phone, that is not issued to courts in relation to these offences? If the an accident but a crime, and we should refer to them as guidance has not changed, how does she explain the road traffic collisions rather than road traffic accidents. huge drop, which is way beyond the possibility of statistical That would help to drive a change in culture. This fluctuation based on the individual circumstances of debate is not about being anti-car—I am a road user the cases? Will she agree to the request from CTC and myself. In fact, most people who are campaigning on other cycling and road safety groups for a review of this issue both cycle and drive. how the criminal justice system is working in these There are examples of unsafe cycling out there. I am cases? sure that I owe my life to a traffic policeman who We have a good record in Britain, going back over hauled me over the coals for cycling down what he many years, of improving our road safety and reducing called the “tunnel of death” between two lanes of death and injury on the roads. That has not happened slow-moving lorries and buses. Hon. Members will be by accident; it has happened through joined-up Government pleased to hear that I did not shout; I just apologised policies that have boosted safety and changed our whole very meekly. Sometimes, being informed about these culture and attitudes towards road crime. I am sure that things makes a difference. the Minister, who is a reasonable woman, would not Inconsistencies run right through our system. We wish to see the recent worrying reversal of that progress need look at the boundaries between careless driving, as part of her legacy. To avoid that, she needs to ensure death by careless and inconsiderate driving, and death that we can restore the confidence of the victims of by dangerous driving. There is evidence, because of the road crime in the justice system. higher conviction rates, that offenders are being driven towards lesser charges. That has huge implications for 3.48 pm sentencing. In many cases, there is the decision that Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): I there is no one to blame at all. That cannot be right. want to speak about information and draw attention to As with the Sentencing Council guidelines on the the Victim Support survey, which stated that 82% of impact on victims of assault, let us have victim statements. people did not know their local candidates for the Losing a child through a collision with a speeding position of police and crime commissioner. We have motorist has no less impact than losing them as a result seen the hon. Member for Manchester Central (Tony of an assault, so let us take that seriously. We should Lloyd) and the right hon. Member for Cardiff South look again at strict liability in civil cases, and I would and Penarth (Alun Michael) working hard to change like the Minister to talk about that. that percentage. More than two thirds of those surveyed thought that they should be better informed about an 3.45 pm offender’s progress and what an offender is doing, Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): I would like to pick particularly if they are serving a community sentence. up on some of the comments made by the hon. Member The Government have set as a priority the issue of for Totnes (Dr Wollaston). Let us be clear—when people information. Indeed, in response to a question that I are behind the wheel of a vehicle, they are in charge of a asked in the House on 18 September, the Justice Secretary lethal weapon. If somebody is killed or seriously maimed said that that has to be a priority. It has been mentioned because of careless or dangerous driving, that is no before. Louise Casey told me that across a whole range different from killing or seriously injuring someone of issues affecting victims the big task needed to improve through any other kind of negligent or dangerous behaviour. the service dramatically is relentless information throughout According to figures given to me in parliamentary the criminal justice system. She said that in 2010. answers, more than 500 killer drivers have avoided jail The previous Labour Government talked a lot about in the past five years. While the number of people the issue, too. Indeed, in 2002 they threw £11 million at convicted of causing death by careless or dangerous the Crown Prosecution Service, setting a target of tracking driving in England and Wales between 2007 and last all cases of victims online by 2005. Sadly, as with many year rose, there was a dramatic fall in the proportion of other targets set by the previous Government, that was those convicted receiving a custodial sentence. not met and the money went into the ether. In 2008, there were 271 such convictions; in 2011, We must ensure that we can do better than that. there were 383. However, in 2008, 90% of drivers who From my own experience—I declare an interest as a were convicted went to jail, while in 2011 only 50% of criminal defence solicitor, although not practising much 111WH Criminal Justice System17 OCTOBER 2012 Criminal Justice System 112WH now—I know that the system of criminal justice is too areas. Let us get the right compensation and the right closed and too insular. The coalition programme said information. Let us ensure, as I am sure we can with the clearly that we must be the most open and transparent new Minister, that we carry out the central task of in the world, and that light must also shine in the doing so much more, so that those surveys from Victim shadows and darknesses of the criminal justice system. Support and others do not come back and tell us that We have some momentum across the political spectrum. too many victims feel that the criminal justice system The Institute for Public Policy Research report this year does not treat victims fairly. supported the tracking of cases online. In these days of information technology, we must be able to enable victims to track cases, from the moment when they are 3.53 pm reported to the point at which justice is served. All too Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- often the CJS Online information is largely impersonal, op): It is a pleasure to speak in the debate this afternoon, and when victims want personal, relevant, useful and Mrs Riordan, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the timely information, it is lacking. Member for Manchester Central (Tony Lloyd) on securing it. I speak today as a member of the trade union Mr Andrew Smith: Does the hon. Gentleman agree USDAW, the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied that victims are entitled not only to things being tracked Workers—I draw attention to the Register of Members’ properly and so on, but to proper compensation? Has Financial Interests—but also as the former Cabinet he looked at the Government proposals on the cuts to Secretary for Justice in the Scottish Parliament for four compensation and does he agree that they need to be years. I am proud that I was able to introduce legislation abandoned? that improved the lot of victims and witnesses in the court system in Scotland, as well as speeding up court Mr Burrowes: I am happy to talk about that and, if processes to stop victims and witnesses from having a the right hon. Gentleman is patient, I will respond lot of their time wasted and to ensure that public money shortly, but first I must finish my train of thought on was not wasted in unduly lengthy processes. information. It is important not to lose the momentum Today I want to concentrate on the changes to the gained from the development of online crime mapping criminal injuries compensation scheme. Just before and take it into online victims’ justice mapping. That Parliament broke up for the recess, I had the opportunity must happen. Yes, there is benefit from social media to present a petition to Parliament signed by thousands and peer support, but there are examples from across of people—mostly, but not all, members of USDAW—who the sea, in Florida, where VINELink can be used to were concerned about that. The process of presenting a track information properly online. Avon and Somerset parliamentary petition means that it is in formal has TrackMyCrime and a 90% satisfaction rating for parliamentary language, which I felt did not really give victims. the flavour or the opportunity to explain what it is like On the case for compensation, I was the shadow for the victims of crime. That is why I was so keen to Justice Minister in 2008 and during a delegated legislation speak in this debate. Committee it was interesting to note the concern in respect of removing or limiting the scope of compensation Earlier today I had the opportunity to hear directly under the criminal injuries rules. The Labour Government from a number of people who have been victims of were seeking to reduce the scope then, but I did not see crime fairly recently, including a young man who was the attention and concern among Labour Members walking to his place of work to cover the shift of a that I see among them now. colleague who had been unable to turn up. He was set upon by three drunken teenagers, hospitalised, ended An issue that we should all recognise is that “criminal up in a coma for some days and possibly suffered a injuries compensation scheme” is a misnomer; it is a stroke. He said that the criminal injuries compensation criminal injuries contribution-to-compensation scheme—it scheme allowed him “to reset his life”, as he described is a contribution and essentially limited. Homicide victims it. It perhaps did not provide all the compensation who have not come through the criminal justice system mentioned by the hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate but are going through the highly bureaucratic process (Mr Burrowes), but no one would ever say that monetary do not get adequate compensation; they get to a maximum compensation is enough in such circumstances. What level, which is a derisory amount for the victims of that young man said was that it had at least given him crime in many ways. It is essentially limited, and the opportunity to put right some of the wrongs. compensation has to be broader than that. I also heard from another young man from Glasgow, Yes, we should provide the support, in particular who was going home from his workplace—he works in where the offender has not been identified and brought retail—to see his baby daughter at lunchtime; at 2.40 in to justice—that lies within the scope of the scheme—but the afternoon he was violently attacked and left unconscious we ought to recognise the progress made by the and with scars that will last for a lifetime. As he said, it Government. For the first time, we have a statutory is not only the physical scars, which both he and his duty for compensation on all offenders who come to family have to deal with, but the emotional scars. Every court. Let us ensure that, when cases get to court, time he goes out, he sees faces in the crowd who he victims are properly compensated, so that they do not believes may yet be those same people who attacked have to go through civil and other remedies. him. His clear message to us as parliamentarians is that It is also planned that offenders will now have to pay our focus should be entirely on cutting crime and not an extra £50 million into the victims’ pot; there is the on cutting compensation. He laid out clearly that the prisoners’ earnings scheme, which will go to victims, as compensation was not about the finance—he lost more well as the additional surcharges. Let us recognise that financially, by being off work for a year, than he ever the issue of compensation covers a whole range of got back in compensation. 113WH Criminal Justice System17 OCTOBER 2012 Criminal Justice System 114WH

[Cathy Jamieson] courts and saw the effect of crime. I have been a victim, not of a violent crime, but it left a few scars that remain I appeal to the Minister, who is new but whose today. background I know. She is a reasonable person, not to It is important that the state should acknowledge the be seen—I am sure she does not want to be—as on the effect of violent crime on individuals— side of the assailants in such circumstances, rather than on the side of the victims. It is a real concern to me that 4pm the Government’s proposals would do away with Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. compensation for a huge number of serious injuries—in particular those covered in the lower bandings, bandings 4.23 pm 1 to 5. The amounts of compensation for the individuals On resuming— are relatively small, but the message, the signal sent to the victims, is that the state—society—has recognised Mrs Linda Riordan (in the Chair): This debate will their suffering and is prepared to do something about it. now end at 4.50 pm. I hope that the Minister will listen and that she will bring any proposals back to the Floor of the House for Mr Doran: In the short time available to me, I want to us all to debate in more detail. make a simple point. One of the principles behind the 1964 Act was set out in the relevant White Paper: “The Government do not accept that the State is liable for 3.57 pm injuries caused to people by the acts of others. The public does, however, feel a sense of responsibility for and sympathy with the Mr Frank Doran ( North) (Lab): I add my innocent victim, and it is right that this feeling should find congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for practical expression in the provision of compensation on behalf Manchester Central (Tony Lloyd) on securing the debate. of the community.” I want to associate myself entirely with the comments The current Government intend to cut that provision, just made by my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock but I think that principle is still very important. The and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson). I value her experience Treasury lost in 1964, but it looks as though it is as a Member of the Scottish Parliament, and I saw her winning in 2012. The victims of crime will be the losers. work in the role to which she referred. I do not want to repeat what she said, but I do want to think a little 4.24 pm about how we got to where we are. Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ Criminal injuries compensation is a relatively new Co-op): It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, concept. Whenever it was thought about in the past, it Mrs Riordan. was considered to be a payment from the criminal to the On 16 September 2004, Robert Levy was stabbed and victim. Relatively recently, in the 1950s, people started killed near Hackney town hall when he went to help a to look seriously at the responsibilities of the state. I younger boy who was being threatened by a schoolboy will not go through all that history, but the first with a knife. Robert was only 16 years old when he lost compensation scheme of its kind anywhere in the world his life. His murderer was 15 years old. was our compensation scheme, introduced by the Labour Robert’s murderer is due to have his parole hearing in Government’s Criminal Injuries Compensation Act 1964. September 2013. I have received correspondence from How that legislation operated was very different from the former Justice Minister, the hon. Member for Reigate how today’s legislation does. There are three particular (Mr Blunt), saying that Mr and Mrs Levy can apply to things to note about the 1964 Act. The hon. Member their local parole board to attend the parole hearing for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes) talked about a and read out their victim personal statement. However, contribution to compensation. The 1964 Act based Mr and Mrs Levy believe—I have a lot of sympathy compensation for crime on the compensation that would with their position—that the victims of crime should have been received for a similar civil injury. There was have the right to speak, or to have a lawyer speak for no limit, and that was the downfall of the legislation, them, at the parole hearings of the people who have because the budget became very high. harmed them or members of their immediate family. As I said, I have a lot of sympathy with that position. The In the first year, around 44,000 cases were presented Levys feel strongly that although articulate people can and more than £50 million was paid in compensation. present their case well—in fact, I would think the Levys That legislation was the first of its kind in the world, fall into that category—some people might not be able and throughout its gestation and progress through to do that and others might not even be able to write Parliament the Treasury opposed it. That must be noted. their victim personal statement very well. There is, The provisions of the scheme have changed substantially. therefore, an issue about parity in the law. Compensation payments have been restricted, and we Mr and Mrs Levy are concerned that at the moment, have fixed bands of payments, depending on the gravity the decision on whether victims of crime can speak or of the injury. The current legislation still meets the basic have a lawyer speak for them at a parole hearing is up to principles of the scheme—that the victims of crime the discretion of the chair of the relevant parole board. should be compensated for their injuries in certain They feel that reading out a statement is not adequate—I circumstances. support them on this—and does not allow family members A financial payment can never fully compensate anyone to respond to points made during the hearing. They for a violent crime. Physical and mental scars may take would like to be able to have some comeback. The a long time to heal, and some never heal. I was a perpetrator has the chance to have other people speak practising solicitor in Scotland for many years, and for him, but they do not have anyone to speak on their dealt with many victims. I also worked in the criminal behalf. 115WH Criminal Justice System17 OCTOBER 2012 Criminal Justice System 116WH

I wrote to the Justice Secretary, the Minister’s boss, “What shocks me is that the driver who killed Rob Jefferies will on 4 October. We have not had a response yet. That is be able to drive again in 18 months…If that young man had had a not a criticism. I expect that he has to consider the legal firearm and had accidentally shot and killed someone through matter, and we have had a good dialogue with Ministers. carelessness, would he be given a new licence 18 months later?” However, could this Minister say specifically in her All too often, incidents in which people are seriously summing-up of the debate whether the Department injured are downgraded from dangerous driving to might consider what has been proposed and look into careless driving because it is easier to secure a conviction, whether there could be better rights for victims, particularly but a conviction for careless driving usually results in at parole hearings? the driver just having to attend a course. This is not about retribution. It is about balance and We need a comprehensive review of how the justice ensuring that the perpetrator accepts responsibility for system operates when people are hurt or killed on the their actions at each stage of the process. For someone roads that includes, first, a full analysis of how the who has served a sentence, the crime becomes more police and coroners investigate such cases; secondly, a distant. For the family who have to live without their review of the charging standards and legal guidance family member—in this case, their son, Robert—the used by the CPS; thirdly, a full examination of the pain never goes away. It is important that perpetrators offences available to the CPS, particularly causing death understand that the impact of their crime does not by careless driving; and fourthly, a review of the sentencing lessen with time. guidelines to ensure that they adequately reflect the actual or potential consequences of an offence. I sincerely apologise, Mrs Riordan, because I may have to leave a little before the end of the debate. British Cycling, of which I am a member, has called Perhaps I can correspond with the Minister, and if she on the Ministry of Justice to start a review. Despite would be willing to meet my constituents, I would be repeated letters and 78 MPs signing an early-day motion very happy to facilitate it. in favour, it has had no response to its request. I congratulate the Minister on her appointment and welcome Mrs Linda Riordan (in the Chair): I am now imposing her to her post. Is she prepared to meet a delegation a time limit on Back-Bench speeches of three minutes. from British Cycling to discuss justice on the roads in more detail, as the organisation has requested? Is she prepared to undertake a review of the justice system? 4.27 pm Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): I congratulate my Mrs Linda Riordan (in the Chair): Order. hon. Friend the Member for Manchester Central (Tony Lloyd) on securing the debate. I would like to follow on 4.30 pm from some of the points made by the hon. Member for Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab): I want to share my Totnes (Dr Wollaston) and my right hon. Friend the knowledge of the Rochdale grooming case and, in Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) and ask the Minister particular, talk about an aspect that has not come to to look at the sentences that drivers receive after killing light or been much discussed: what one might term, the or injuring cyclists, which many people feel are often criminalisation of sexually exploited girls. The Howard derisory. League for Penal Reform recently produced a detailed For example, British Cycling employee Rob Jefferies report on that very issue, involving research by Professor was killed when he was hit from behind on an open, Jo Phoenix of Durham university, entitled “Out of straight road in broad daylight by someone who had Place”. Soon after the Rochdale trial, I met a range of already been caught for speeding. Unbelievably, the people involved in the case, including the victims. It driver got just an 18-month ban, a retest, 200 hours’ became apparent that at least some of the victims had community service and a small fine. That was in line committed crimes that were clearly a response to the with the guidelines, so there was no hope of an appeal. abuse that they had received—a cry for help. Mr Jefferies’ brother, Will, is following this debate. He Girl A in the Rochdale case described to me how on said: one occasion she tried smashing up a vending machine “The present state of the law meant that his killer could never in one of the takeaways in which she had been repeatedly receive a sentence proportionate to the crime.” raped. The perpetrators of the rape had no hesitation in The lorry driver who killed another cyclist, Eilidh phoning the police, who attended and arrested the girl. Jake Cairns, admitted in court that his eyesight was not It was during police questioning about smashing up the good enough for him to have been driving. He was fined vending machine that she explained that she had been just £200. He was free to drive again immediately. sexually exploited. It is the episode that people might Unbelievably, 18 months later, he knocked down and remember; the police officer interviewing her yawned killed Nora Gutmann, an elderly pensioner. His eyesight throughout the interview, as though he was not interested was still poor and he was not wearing his prescribed in what he was being told. It was at that stage that the glasses. If he had been convicted of causing death by girl’s parents first learnt about the abuse that she had careless driving the first time, he would have been given received. That was in 2008, and we now know that no a driving ban and would not have been able to kill Nora prosecutions, either of the girl or the perpetrators, took Gutmann. The justice system failed not only Eilidh, place and that the abuse continued for another two years. but Nora. From that incident and others, we also know that the When Cath Ward, who worked for the police in the perpetrators of those horrific crimes were emboldened west midlands, was knocked off her bike and killed, the to continue the abuse. As, I am sure, they saw it, they driver was convicted of careless driving and received were being left alone to continue raping girls. Indeed, if just a short driving ban. Cath’s friend, Ruth Eyles, the girls stepped out of line and committed crimes wrote to me: against them, the perpetrators felt emboldened enough 117WH Criminal Justice System17 OCTOBER 2012 Criminal Justice System 118WH

[Simon Danczuk] How society looks to and supports the victims of crime is most important. We had a proud record in to report it to the police. I was told of an incident in government of helping and supporting victims, not which one of the victims smashed up a taxi of a least with a 43% cut in crime, but we recognise that perpetrator, and she, too, was arrested. there was and is much more to be done. That is why, I press the Minister to review the cases in which the among other things, we propose bringing forward a victims were prosecuted, and possibly revoke some of victims’ law at the earliest opportunity—hopefully, before the action taken against them. I shall conclude with an not too long. important point: in such cases, children must always be In welcoming the Minister, I must say, as I said some treated as victims, never as willing participants, and weeks ago, that we have high hopes that she and her certainly never as criminals. colleagues will do far better than their predecessors in the two and a half sadly wasted years to date. Despite 4.33 pm the little waver when she responded to an Adjournment Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): I was one of the MPs debate on the criminal injuries compensation scheme who last month went to the delegated legislation Committee before the issue went to the delegated legislation Committee, considering the Government’s proposals to cut the criminal she rightly and properly pulled the statutory instrument injuries compensation scheme. We were absolutely on the scheme when it came to Committee, to ensure determined to speak up against those cuts. Indeed, in that it was not fully considered and an injustice was not contrast to many such Committees, where most of the continued. Her recollection of that fateful afternoon speaking is left to the Front Benchers, there was lively and evening will no doubt be such that she would not and vigorous opposition, not only from the Opposition want a repeat of the clearly expressed unease from the side, but from Government MPs. I thank the Minister Government Benches and across the Committee. for having the wisdom not to push the motion to a vote Will the Minister give a categorical assurance that the and to allow time for a rethink. Government will not rush through both Houses a new If the cuts had gone ahead, they would have ended proposal that has been only cosmetically changed? I payments to victims, who include postal workers and urge her to assure Members that the criminal injuries children, mauled by dangerous dogs and to victims of compensation scheme will be properly considered on criminal injury who suffered any of a raft of so-called the Floor of both Houses. Will she also assure Members minor injuries, including multiple broken ribs, who are that proposals will not be brought forward unless a currently eligible for payments of between £1,000 and proper review and reworking of the scheme has taken £2,000. Cuts would have been made to payments that place to address all the concerns raised by Members on currently range from £2,500 to £8,000 for more serious both sides of the delegated legislation Committee and injuries, such as fractured joints and significant facial by various outside organisations? scarring. It is important to stress that the criminal injuries The criminal injuries compensation scheme is the last compensation scheme is the last resort. It is important resort for victims of crime, when payment cannot be to the most vulnerable and innocent victims in society. recovered from the perpetrators of the crime or from We are talking about modest sums, but they are very insurance cover. It involves modest sums, awarded under valuable, particularly to those on low pay. stringent conditions to the victims of crime, many of A number of Members mentioned dog attacks. It is whom suffer loss of earnings due to their injuries. It is horrendous when anybody is attacked, as a lot of postal particularly valuable for those on low pay, such as the workers are, but we must remember that all too often third of front-line retail workers who do not earn the victims of such attacks are children. Are we seriously enough to qualify for sick pay. Victims of criminal saying that no compensation scheme or a weakened injury also include health workers injured by violent scheme would be right? Members on both sides of the patients and postal workers attacked by dangerous dogs. House mentioned the information available to victims; We cannot compensate for the trauma of an attack, but the important issue of prisoner release needs to be we, as a society, should at least provide modest financial addressed in particular. We also heard contributions help for the victims. about the attitude of professionals. I hope that the Furthermore, even if an injury is work-related and Minister will say something about that. They should be the employer has employers’ liability insurance, the professional when dealing with victims of crime. Court of Appeal has said that no employer could be expected to go as far as preventing any robbery from Restorative justice has to be done properly. It is not a taking place at all, and therefore employers do not cheap alternative. It is not something that can be swept breach their duty of care by not preventing robberies. in to deal with the matter and save a few quid on the Clearly, there is a need for a safety net and for the side. If it is done properly and effectively and in the right criminal injuries compensation scheme. For the sake of circumstances, it is very good indeed, but it can be victims of crime, I again ask the Minister to abandon incredibly damaging if it is not. plans to cut the criminal injuries compensation scheme. The hon. Member for Witham (Priti Patel), who is not in the Chamber at the moment, mentioned the case 4.35 pm of her constituent Marie Heath whose son was murdered, Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): As ever, and the good work of SAMM Abroad. I add my it is a pleasure to serve under your watchful gaze, support to that organisation. Mrs Riordan. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member My right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South for Manchester Central (Tony Lloyd) on securing this and Penarth (Alun Michael) spoke about the four steps. crucial debate and on the support he has had from They are extremely good points that the Government colleagues. need to take on board. I have concerns that the Government 119WH Criminal Justice System17 OCTOBER 2012 Criminal Justice System 120WH still do not even know how much money is going to be The Government have a responsibility to ensure that delegated for PCCs to use for victims. I believe it is work practical and emotional support is provided to help in progress, which is a little worrying given that we are victims cope with the initial impact of crime and, in the only a month away. longer term and as far as possible, recover from the I will not repeat the points about cyclists at any consequences of crime. We are proceeding with plans to length. British Cycling has done an extremely good job make improvements to the support available, raising up of raising the profile, and Members on both sides of the to an additional £50 million from the perpetrators of House have spoken well on that point. I simply urge the crime. On 1 October, the victim surcharge payable by an Minister to take the opportunity to have a proper root adult on a fine was increased. More than that, it has and branch review of the way that not only the criminal been extended to other disposals such as conditional justice system but the entire system looks at victims of discharges, community sentences and custodial sentences. incidents—quite rightly, not accidents—where cyclists Similar provision has also been made in respect of are involved. juveniles. The increase in revenue will increase the help that we can give to victims. There have been so many good points. I urge anyone However, there is little point in ensuring that decent observing the debate to read it in Hansard. I finish with funding is available if we do not use it in the best way a couple of points. My hon. Friend the Member for possible. That means prioritising support to those who Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) raised the truly need it: victims of the most serious crimes, victims matter of Robert Levy’s murder, which raises important who are persistently targeted and victims who are the issues, and I look forward to what the Minister has to most vulnerable in our society, and who may be isolated say. My hon. Friend the Member for Dudley North (Ian because of lack of support or family. That prioritisation Austin) talked about British Cycling, and I met Will of support underpins a second, related reform. For too Jeffreys, the brother of Robert Jeffreys. My hon. Friend long most funding decisions about victims’ services the Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) raised the have been made in Whitehall. Past Governments have appalling behaviour in Rochdale. The children’s tested to destruction the virtues of monopoly purchasing commissioner said that the issue does not just affect of services, which I do not believe are in the interests of certain communities; it is a problem in every community victims or taxpayers. We will take a more intelligent of every part of our country. That is chilling. approach to victims and witnesses. I look forward to the Minister’s comments. I have Under our plans, the Ministry of Justice will retain spoken for slightly longer than I intended. My apologies responsibility for commissioning services where either to the Minister. proven economies of scale exist or they are genuinely of a specialist nature. In our judgment, that means continued Mrs Linda Riordan (in the Chair): Order. Before I call support from the Ministry of Justice for those bereaved the Minister, may I remind her that the debate must through homicide, for victims of trafficking, and for finish at 4.50 pm? rape support centres. We are also continuing to consider where else this approach would make sense. Our coalition agreement also promised much needed The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice stability for rape support services across the country, (Mrs Helen Grant): I am grateful, Mrs Riordan. It is a and we have given them long-term funding. We have pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today. I also opened new support centres in areas lacking such congratulate the hon. Member for Manchester Central provision. (Tony Lloyd) on securing the debate. I am conscious For the bulk of victims’ services, however, funding that this may be one of the final times we hear from will be devolved to democratically accountable police him. I want quickly to convey that he will be missed and crime commissioners. It is a plain fact that the right across the House. I wish I had time to say more. needs of victims vary locally, and PCCs, much more There is so much to say and so little time. than officials and Ministers in Whitehall, will be best I am delighted to be responsible for representing the placed to decide what their communities want and what needs of victims and witnesses in Government. I am they need. Hon. Members have raised the issue of committed to ensuring that they are high on the national budgets and how much money will go to Government’s agenda, which is exactly where they belong. PCCs. I envisage that the majority of the budget will go At the beginning of the year, we launched a consultation to PCCs. that sought views on a far-reaching package of proposals. For many victims of crime, of course, their contact We called it “Getting it right for victims and witnesses”, with the criminal justice system involves neither drawing because that is what we need to do. Victims too often on services to help them recover, nor—I shall come to feel themselves to be at best an afterthought and at this policy in a moment—seeking compensation. Rather, worst forgotten in the process of justice. Despite their priority is that the system treats them decently improvements over the past two decades, the system has during the investigation and trial. It is unacceptable continued to fall short, whether in relation to helping that victims still frequently feel that too little is being victims recover from the aftermath of a crime, supporting done. They have been given too little information and them through the inevitable stresses of investigation they are expected to sit next to the families of offenders. and trial, or providing the right services in the right The Government are undertaking a review of the victims’ place, funded as far as possible by offenders rather than code and the witness charter to consider in detail how the taxpayer. The urgent need to remedy the current they can be made more effective and robust. weaknesses is why we are implementing the package of I am sure that the hon. Member for Manchester proposals that we committed to in our response to the Central will be pleased to know that we are taking a consultation. careful look at the operation of victim personal statements, 121WH Criminal Justice System 17 OCTOBER 2012 122WH

[Mrs Helen Grant] Parliamentary Language which can be invaluable to victims in court, making sure Mrs Linda Riordan (in the Chair): Before we start, that the impact of the crime upon them is really understood. may I remind Members of the importance of abiding by We are committed to ensuring that offenders take greater our usual rules and conventions during this debate? responsibility for their crimes and do more to repair the harm that they have caused. I have already talked about the additional money that will be provided to victims 5pm through the surcharge. Restorative justice is something Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): It is a delight to serve that could transform lives, and I will certainly be pursuing under your chairmanship, Mrs Riordan. I do not think that. that you say that at the beginning of every debate, so I The Government believe that the role of the victims’ feel a little admonished already. commissioner is vital to making sure that victims’ needs “Erskine May”, the volume that governs how we are championed and their voices heard across Government. behave in Parliament and dictates many of the rules The announcement of our intention to fill the post of that are not written up in the Standing Orders of the victims’ commissioner is another clear signal that the House of Commons, must be one of the most regularly Government’s commitment to criminal justice reform is ignored books in the history of English literature. Members real. will perhaps be surprised to know that it says: There have been numerous contributions made today “All Members should maintain silence.” by hon. Members. I will quickly list them: the hon. Member for Manchester Central; my hon. Friend the I do not know how often there is silence in the Chamber Member for Witham (Priti Patel); the right hon. Members when somebody else is speaking. It is pretty rare, although for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael) and for on occasion the mood of the House can change on a Exeter (Mr Bradshaw); my hon. Friend the Member for sixpence. “Erskine May” also says that Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes); the hon. Members “Members must not read any book, newspaper or letter.” for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) and I have often seen Members signing Christmas cards in for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran); my hon. Friend the the House of Commons while a debate is going on, so Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston); and the hon. Members I gently suggest that “Erskine May” is often ignored. I for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier), for suspect that one of the reasons is that it is not generally Dudley North (Ian Austin), for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) available to the public—it costs £260 to buy. I believe and for Llanelli (Nia Griffith). Unfortunately, I do not that it should be available online and I cannot see any have time to go into detail and comment as I would like earthly reason why it should not be. All the Standing on the issues that they raised, but I assure them that I Orders of the House and everything else that dictates have listened very carefully indeed to everything that the way that we do our business are available online. they said, and I may have to write to them to clarify I know that some members of the public might think issues. that there was a golden age when all MPs sat in the House of Commons and listened to one another carefully Mr Bradshaw: I am sorry that the Minister has not and attentively, only ever voting according to their been able to respond to the points made by three hon. consciences and not according to any party Whip, and Members about road traffic victims. Would she at least that there was never any unruliness. In fact, the modern agree to meet a delegation led by British Cycling to era has probably been one of the most ruly in parliamentary discuss the issue? democracy. Mrs Grant: I will write to the right hon. Gentleman On 24 July 1911, Tory MPs completely and utterly and I agree to meet a delegation. refused to allow the Prime Minister—Mr Asquith—to speak for the best part of 20 minutes by literally shouting I am right out of time, so I will just say that our at him at a very important point in his attempt to package of reforms is designed to ensure that victims’ resolve a row between the House of Commons and the services are put on a more intelligent and sustainable House of Lords. Then, when F. E. Smith was going to footing. It is designed, in particular, to ensure that those speak on behalf of the Conservatives, the Liberals, who in greatest need of help and support get what they believed that Smith had orchestrated the shouting at actually need when they need it. It is not about one size Mr Asquith, all shouted at him until the Speaker had to fitting all. I am committed to these reforms. suspend the sitting before eventually adjourning it for the rest of the day. It is the only time that I have found 4.50 pm that the Prime Minister was literally unable to get a Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. single sentence out and on to the record; I suppose that is what happens when there is a Chamber dominated by 4.59 pm Conservatives and Liberals. On resuming— In 1920, things got even worse. On 22 November that year, a Conservative, John Elsdale Molson, attacked an Irish nationalist, Joseph Devlin, when Devlin raised the matter of the Croke Park massacre, which had happened the day before. Indeed, things got so bad that the Conservative dragged the Irish nationalist over the top of the Bench and started pummelling him on the Floor. A Liberal actually shouted out, “Kill him”, and obviously the sitting had to be suspended. 123WH Parliamentary Language17 OCTOBER 2012 Parliamentary Language 124WH

Likewise, on 11 April 1923 the Speaker suspended the time. On occasions in 2002, the current Secretary of sitting because the Government had lost a vote the day State for Work and Pensions used quotations as a before and Labour MPs were insisting that they should means of accusing Stephen Byers of lying, but he was therefore change their policy on ex-servicemen. At that not reprimanded by the Chair for doing so, even though point, Robert Murray, a Conservative politician, and it is absolutely clear in “Erskine May” that a Member is Walter Guinness, a Labour politician, ended up in a not allowed to use the fact that they are quoting somebody fist-fight and the rest of the day’s business was lost. else as a means of passing off an imputation of dishonesty I mention all those incidents because people sometimes against another Member. have this glorious image of a perfect, pacific past in the I cannot remember Tom Watson’s constituency, but it House of Commons. Sometimes we romanticise the is somewhere in the midlands—West Bromwich east, past too much and I would argue that “Erskine May” north, south or west. He was told off for using the word has also entrenched some of the archaisms of the past “pipsqueak” on 8 July 2010, yet the words “stoolpigeon”, that are no longer necessary. “hooligan”, “blackguard” and “idiot” have all been Personally, I find the whole business of calling somebody used at various times by hon. Members and they have an “hon. Friend”, a “right hon. Friend” or an “hon. never been told off for using them. So I simply say that Member” rather unnecessary. I do not know why; it just it is time for a greater degree of consistency about what makes us seem as if we are hung up on titles. Ordinary we consider parliamentary and unparliamentary language. members of the public have no idea what the difference Indeed, I would say that it is time for a full redraft of is between an “hon. Member” and a “right hon. “Erskine May”. Member”—indeed, often Members themselves do not In particular, Members may not know that they are know the difference. It just seems so ludicrous when one not allowed to be ironical in a debate in the House of Member has referred to another Member as “honourable” Commons. It was a ruling of the Speaker on 25 August and then someone else pipes up and says, “Oh no, he’s 1860, when he spoke to a Member: right honourable”. I just think, “Honestly, have we not “I should have informed him that to discuss any matter in the got something better to obsess about than our own House in an ironical sense is unparliamentary and out of order.”— status?” [Official Report, 25 August 1860; Vol. 160, c. 1827.] Similarly, it is a particular irony that we always refer When I have heard people make ironical comments in to one another by our constituencies, not least because the House, I have often wondered whether those comments we can rarely remember each other’s constituency names. should be put in italics in Hansard, so that everybody So we will go, “The hon. Member for…somewhere catches the drift of what the person was really saying; down in the south-west”, or something like that, and sometimes it looks as if they are saying exactly the then somebody will shout out the constituency name opposite of what they really mean. However, the ruling and it gets corrected and tidied up by Hansard. The is still in “Erskine May” as a result of that decision in irony of it all is that Hansard will actually then put the 1860. name of the Member. I have already referred to the fact that “Erskine May” It is bizarre that we play this game of having to refer says that extracts from newspapers or books, and to one another by our constituencies rather than our paraphrases of or quotations from speeches and so on, names. I do not think that the fact that people in the are not admissible. I think that that ruling is out of date Welsh Assembly or the Scottish Parliament call one and it is another by their names means they are any less courteous “more honoured in the breach than the observance”. to one another; indeed, they might actually be a little more courteous. Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab): I am sorry to have There are also a lot of inconsistencies about how the to use the term “my hon. Friend”; in fact, I will just say Chair sometimes rules in relation to specific comments “my Friend.” Does my Friend agree that some things that are meant to involve unparliamentary language. cannot be put in “Erskine May” and that there should For instance, Eric Forth regularly got away with using be some guidelines that just mean that we lead by the term “PMPs”. When he was shadow Leader of the example? For instance, when I have been going round House, he always referred to “PMPs” as opposed to the country asking people why they hate politicians, “PMQs”, with “PMPs” meaning “Prime Minister’s they say that one of the primary reasons is that they do porkies”. If that was not accusing the Prime Minister of not think that we answer questions put to us. We may lying, I do not know what would have been. think that senior politicians might lead the way on that That was quite a direct accusation of dishonesty, yet issue, but the Prime Minister demonstrated the opposite Jacob Rees-Mogg—sorry, I am not allowed to call him today in an answer—or non-answer—to the question that; I must call him “the hon. Member for somewhere that my Friend put. That is the kind of thing that or other down in the south-west”—did not get into infuriates voters. trouble for using the word “flipping”, but Sally Keeble got into considerable trouble for using a word that Chris Bryant: I will come later to what the Prime begins and ends with the same letters as “flipping” but Minister said this afternoon, but to be honest I think is slightly different in the middle, and that was because that it was pretty scandalous. The whole point of Parliament it was used in a quotation. is that Members are sent here on behalf of their constituents Members are not allowed to use quotations. It says to be able to hold the Government to account, and that quite clearly in “Erskine May” that Members are not must surely require the Government to answer questions. allowed to use a quotation at all, at any point. No Indeed, the ministerial code of conduct, ironically enough, extracts from books, magazines or newspapers can be was written by the Prime Minister in May 2010. It says used, and yet we do it regularly—in fact, we do it all the absolutely categorically: 125WH Parliamentary Language17 OCTOBER 2012 Parliamentary Language 126WH

[Chris Bryant] our society, seems misguided and wrong. It relies on an understanding from the late 17th century, which is “It is of paramount importance that Ministers give accurate archaic. and truthful information to Parliament”. “Erskine May” also states, incidentally, that we are It also says: not even allowed to ask a question about ecclesiastical “Ministers should be as open as possible with Parliament and patronage. When the Prime Minister, in the next few the public, refusing to provide information only when disclosure days, gets two names suggested to him as next Archbishop would not be in the public interest”. of Canterbury, we will not be allowed to ask him which People might think that that is just the ministerial code name he put forward to the Queen for appointment. of conduct, and that the Prime Minister wrote it so he One of the problems with the Church of England today can ignore it. However, it is also a motion of this House is that the whole process of appointing bishops and —it was a resolution of this House carried on 19 March archbishops is far too clouded in secrecy. It would be 1997. I cannot understand, and I do not think that our far better to have an open and transparent system, as we constituents will understand, why the Prime Minister have for any other Government appointment. Why can should think himself able to declare that he will not we not ask questions about how patronage is exercised? answer a particular question from somebody, apparently Similarly, and this strikes me as very strange, we are just because he does not like them. not allowed to ask questions about how the Prime I happen to think that the Prime Minister did that Minister exercises his patronage in the granting of honours. because he had something to hide. He made it pretty That is particularly bizarre, because in 1922 a Conservative clear that he chose not to deny the fact that there are Member, Colonel John Gretton—as I am sure you additional e-mails between him and Rebekah Brooks know, Mrs Riordan, he won two golds in the 1900 and Andy Coulson, of a salacious nature and embarrassing Olympics—wanted to ask Lloyd George if he could to him, which he refuses to publish. He could have give a definite assurance chosen to deny that today. It seems absolutely clear to “that no money or other consideration of money value has been me that there is precisely such a stash, and he should, in paid, or passed either directly or indirectly, in connection with the interests of democracy—and, frankly, in the interests any of the honours recommended by the Prime Minister in of his reputation—publish them as soon as possible. announcing the list of honours on the 3rd of June this year.”—[Official Report, 27 June 1922; Vol. 155, c. 1842.] Incidentally, the Prime Minister said earlier this year that he was not going to reply to any of my questions, The Speaker refused to allow him to ask the question, then he started replying to some of them and now he but it seems to me absolutely quintessentially important has gone back to not replying. I presume that today’s that we should know whether money has been handed not-replying answer was precisely because I had asked a over to a political party or an individual for the granting question that embarrassed him and because he had of an honour. The Speaker relied on the answer that something to hide. had been given by his predecessor, Speaker Lowther, on 21 July 1907, when another MP, Hugh Lea, wanted to “Erskine May” also says that we are not allowed to ask Campbell-Bannerman, another Liberal Prime Minister, ask certain kinds of questions: about a knighthood he had given to Sir James Brown “Questions which seek an expression of opinion, or which Smith. We know, in retrospect, that those were corrupt contain arguments, expressions of opinion, inferences or imputations, arrangements, but we could not have found that out unnecessary epithets, or rhetorical, controversial, ironical or offensive through Parliament. If exactly the same were to happen expressions are not in order.” today, we would have no means of establishing whether That would rule out pretty much every single parliamentary there was a corrupt arrangement. question I have ever heard, certainly those on the Floor I want to come to the matter of imputations of of the House; perhaps written questions are rather falsehood. Earlier this year, we had a debate about the different. This seems to be yet another example of then Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, where we must consider changing how we write our who is now the Secretary of State for Health—a bizarre rules. promotion to my mind, but that is a matter for the Some of the issues are very specific, and I want to Prime Minister’s conscience and not for anyone else’s. I refer to how “Erskine May” says we are allowed to refer made allegations about him in the debate, which had to other Members of Parliament, Members of the been made by other people in different terms, but House of Lords, judges, governors-general of other amounting to exactly the same thing. I will not repeat territories, the Queen, the heir to the throne and members them here, because that would be inappropriate. Members of the royal family. have to understand that when a motion specifically It is absolutely right and proper that we should not refers to the conduct of a Member they must be able to seek to bring members of the royal family into our make an allegation about that conduct, and that also debates, and not seek to pray in aid a member of the applies to Members of the House of Lords and of royal family to try, in some way or another, to influence elsewhere. a debate—by saying, for example, “Princess Anne agrees In the 19th century, there were direct accusations with me”or “Prince Andrew disagrees with me.”However, against Viscount Palmerston, who, because his viscountcy extending that to mean that we cannot say a word about was an Irish one, was a Member of the House of a member of the royal family is inappropriate, because Commons. The Speaker ruled very clearly that if the we can write about them in newspapers. As Members of debate was about whether Viscount Palmerston had Parliament, we can say things on television, and in lied to the House, it was perfectly possible to make that debates on “Question Time” or “Any Questions?”, so allegation, although it would not be in any other kind of not to be able to say the same things in Parliament, debate. We need to draw that line very carefully, because which is meant to be the fundamental place of debate in there will be times when our constituents want us to say 127WH Parliamentary Language17 OCTOBER 2012 Parliamentary Language 128WH directly, in words that they understand, adhere to and “good temper and moderation are the characteristics of parliamentary support, what the allegation is. Sometimes when we language.” mystify parliamentary language, we do ourselves an There may be times when those characteristics are not enormous disservice. as in evidence as they might be, but we rely on the I have already referred to the issue of what should wisdom and authority of the Chair to set the limits. and should not be said in Parliament, and there is just Being too prescriptive about terms that are and are one other thing that I want to mention. If we are to do not parliamentary is easy. Much depends on the context our job well in opposition—all of us, at some point, are in which they are used. As the hon. Gentleman may likely to be in opposition—it is important that Ministers know, pre-1983 editions of “Erskine May” contained adhere to all the elements of the ministerial code. I note lists of terms that had been ruled unparliamentary. The that on Monday the Home Secretary was not able to disadvantage, of course, is that unparliamentary use is provide a copy of her speech to the Opposition before often more to do with context or the tone with which she stood up to make her statement. It was said that something is said. Simply having a list is no guarantee providing it beforehand was merely a convention of the against parliamentary abuse by Members. House. That is not so. Section 9.5 of the ministerial We have all experienced this, me included: I thought code states: that my language was in good temper and moderation “A copy of the text of an oral statement should usually be as I introduced a ten-minute rule Bill on freedom of shown to the Opposition shortly before it is made.” information, during which I did not accuse individual I think that “usually” is there because of the Budget, Members, but accused some of perhaps duplicitous and only because of that. It goes on: behaviour in relation to expenses and a particular Bill, “For this purpose, 15 copies of the statement and associated but I was slapped down because my language was documents should be sent to the Chief Whip’s Office at least 45 deemed bad-tempered and immoderate. I felt that, in minutes before the statement is to be made.” those circumstances, the language that I used was I cannot remember the Home Secretary providing a appropriate. To codify such things is extremely difficult, copy of her statement to the shadow Home Office team as they are not always black and white, which is why it is 45 minutes, 40 minutes, 35 minutes or 25 minutes before, better for the Chair to judge the factors on a case-by-case and I very much hope that when the Minister replies, he basis. will tell us that he will ensure that the Prime Minister I think that most Members would not want us to go will reply to questions and that all Ministers will provide down the Australian route, where a much more colourful Opposition spokespeople with a copy of their statements turn of phrase is permitted. The terms of endearment at least 45 minutes before they deliver them, as required that Paul Keating used towards John Howard include in the ministerial code. “desiccated coconut,” “mangy maggot,” and much worse. I hope most Members would agree that that is not the route we should go down. 5.18 pm The hon. Gentleman referred to arcane language. I The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Tom understand his point. He said that the arcane language Brake): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, we use is often unnecessary or old-fashioned, but addressing Mrs Riordan. I congratulate the hon. Member for other Members through the Chair provides some distance Rhondda (Chris Bryant), who is a former Deputy Leader and perhaps reduces the antagonism that might be felt of the House, on securing the debate. He has set out his and, therefore, slightly lowers the temperature of debates, detailed historical knowledge of parliamentary procedure which should be welcomed. and his long-standing interest in the matter. He highlighted some of the discrepancies that can be identified in Chris Bryant: I could talk through the Chair but, “Erskine May”, and has entertained us with stories of none the less, refer to Tom Brake, rather than the right how Parliament used to be. He presented an image that hon. Member for whatever constituency he represents. resembled a fight club, but with occasional use of parliamentary procedural language. Tom Brake: Indeed, the hon. Gentleman could. My It is a great pleasure to respond to the debate, particularly point is that, by talking through the Chair and referring as the Government have no direct responsibility for to other Members as right hon. Gentlemen or right parliamentary language. As the hon. Gentleman knows, hon. Ladies, we are providing some distance and reducing the language used in Parliament is a matter for Parliament the temperature, which, except for some rather bad- itself, and in this House it is the Chair rather than the tempered debates, ensures that good-tempered and Government who has responsibility for ensuring that moderate language is used in the House. what is said is in accordance with the rules and conventions People might feel that some of the terminology that of the House. We all rightly respect the Chair, and in we use—Adjournment debates, early-day motions, responding to the debate I certainly will not be suggesting substantive motions and Divisions—do not help the to you, Mrs Riordan, nor to the Speaker or his Deputies, public to engage, but others would argue that at least how they should apply the rules of the House. some members of the public appear to have little difficulty Having absolved myself of any responsibility for in following parliamentary proceedings on the Parliament parliamentary language, I am happy to address the channel. They seem to cope with some of that language. points raised by the hon. Gentleman. It is right that we Of course, there have been some incremental reforms: conduct debates in the House in a courteous and reasonable we do not refer to the Public Gallery as the Strangers manner. Although we may profoundly disagree with Gallery any more. The hon. Member for Broxbourne one another, resorting to personal insult and abuse (Mr Walker), the new Chair of the Procedure Committee, would demean the institution of Parliament and its might have views on such matters and want to consider Members. “Erskine May” states that the question of archaic language. 129WH Parliamentary Language 17 OCTOBER 2012 130WH

[Tom Brake] Chancel Repair Liability

One point on which the hon. Member for Rhondda 5.28 pm was perhaps not entirely correct is that, in this House, we may refer to members of the royal family, the Peter Luff (Mid ) (Con): Should the Speaker, members of other Parliaments and judges, vote due at 6 o’clock come towards the end of the provided that there is a substantive motion for the Minister’s concluding remarks, I am content for her to House to debate. In such circumstances, it is perfectly write to me with her final remarks, rather than bring legitimate to debate members of the royal family or Members back at quarter past 6. other categories, such as senior judges. Again, the fact I am also sorry that the late start means my hon. that that is done through a substantive motion ensures Friends the Members for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah that, for instance, the courts are treated with the respect Newton) and for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) are not in they should and that there is a strong relationship of their places, as they had hoped; sadly, they have other trust and respect between the courts and the House. duties. This debate is on the consequences of events that Chris Bryant: If, for instance, a member of the royal happened centuries ago, between 1536 and 1540 to be family is appointed by UK Trade and Investment to precise, so I will give a little context. Parliament and adopt an ambassadorial role on behalf of the country English democracy will be 750 years old in the year of and the Government, is it not perfectly appropriate that the next election: it was in 1265 that Simon de Montfort Members of Parliament should be able to ask questions first called the shires to assemble in what is generally about the expenditure on their flights, how much it recognised as the first true English Parliament. We costs for them to travel, whether they have been doing a honour him in the vale of Evesham with particular good job and whether, frankly, they have been a complete enthusiasm; he was killed later in the same year at the and utter embarrassment to the country? battle of Evesham. Our modern freedoms can be dated from exactly 50 years earlier: it was in 1215 that King Tom Brake: A debate on the hon. Gentleman’s specific John reluctantly signed the Magna Carta. He now lies points might be possible through a substantive motion, buried in Worcester cathedral. The inheritances of and I will write to him to clarify that. democracy and freedom, therefore, perhaps ring a little Finally, time does not allow me to rehearse the 13 June louder in the ears of an MP from Worcestershire. debate on the then Secretary of State for Culture, The freedoms that Parliament defends often affect Media and Sport, but that debate made something many thousands, even millions, of people, but the freedom clear: when a serious allegation is made against a Member of small groups is just as precious. So it is with the and provided there is a substantive motion, it is perfectly archaic workings of the law on chancel repair liability. in order for that debate to take place and for matters “Archaic” is the word to describe those workings: we do contained in the substantive motion to be raised. The not have to go back as far as King John or Simon de only caveat is that there is still a need to maintain Montfort to establish its origins, but we do have to go good-tempered and moderate language in that debate, back to Henry VIII and the dissolution of the , so that the genuine, substantive issues contained in the which concluded in January 1540. motion can be debated appropriately. I am no lawyer, let alone an ecclesiastical lawyer, but I I thank the hon. Gentleman for raising the matter. I hope that the essence of what I am about to say will be have noted his concerns and will ensure that they are accurate. At the time of the dissolution of the monasteries, drawn to the attention of, for instance, the new Chair of their land was sold off by the King. Often, there was a the Procedure Committee. He raised the specific point church used by the local community, associated with about Ministers ensuring that statements are received the land sold off, that had been sustained by the local within 45 minutes, which I will ensure is taken up with . The King wished the churches to continue Departments. to function, so he decided that those who purchased the land associated with them would be nominated lay rectors and have continuing responsibility for the upkeep of that part of the church used by the himself, the chancel. Thus the principle of chancel repair liability was established. Often, the purchasers were major institutions, such as the schools of Eton and Winchester and the colleges of Oxford and Cambridge. They own to this day the land that they purchased from the King, and the liability to repair the chancels of the relevant churches has continued, providing many fortunate parochial church councils of the 21st century with a useful source of income for the maintenance of their mediaeval churches. Other purchasers were less long-lived, or the land was sold and sold again and the liability forgotten. It still existed in law but had lapsed in practice, perhaps for centuries. Although lapsed, it was still enforceable, and so we come to 1994 and Aston Cantlow. Just across the border from my constituency, in Warwickshire, events unfolded that put an unwelcome spotlight back on 131WH Chancel Repair Liability17 OCTOBER 2012 Chancel Repair Liability 132WH chancel repair liability. A family purchased a property Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman knowing the liability attached to it but expecting it to be has explained clearly the problems faced by householders. unenforceable in modern law. The case went throughout Given that back in 1982, the General Synod of the the courts and eventually the family lost, which cost Church of England overwhelmingly supported a motion them a total of about £500,000. The courts asserted proposing that chancel repair liability be phased out afresh, to much amazement, that the liability remained and that the Law Commission’s 1985 report recommended a valid claim on modern householders. that chancel repair liability arising from the ownership The then Government reflected on the advice that of land should be abolished after 10 years, does he agree they had received from the General Synod of the Church that the Government should now consider implementing of England, the Law Society and the Law Commission that recommendation or, at the very least, agreeing to that the liability was an archaic law that should be set up a parliamentary committee of inquiry shortly scrapped, and ignored that advice. Actually, I think that after October 2013? It is outrageous that people should they were right to do so. The major institutions that be facing the unfairness of chancel repair liability. A own land to which the liability attaches can afford the few householders are facing enormous bills. burden and budget for it. To remove that useful source of income from the cash-strapped Church would provide Peter Luff: I agree with the spirit of what the hon. a windfall for some very rich and privileged institutions— Lady says, but happily, I think I have a rather simpler including, by the way, and with some irony, the Church solution. Let us see. Commissioners themselves, who own considerable amounts As I was saying, the sum would be payable pretty of land to which the liability attaches. much on demand and would be unpredictable in both Although the then Government may have been right amount and frequency. A house in such a situation not to abolish the law, they should still have chosen a would be either unsaleable or substantially reduced in different route. They decreed in 2003, in the light of the value. Some wrongly say that insurance is the answer, Aston Cantlow verdict, that the liability would lapse on but it is not. When someone buys a house, the solicitor any property to which it attached if it was not registered should do a search to establish whether the liability by October 2013, but only when the property first exists on the property. Such searches are complex and changed hands after that date. Registration meant that often difficult to conduct, so after a brief search, many the existence of the liability would appear on the title solicitors instead offer purchasers chancel repair liability deeds and be registered as such by the Land Registry. insurance. The liability would continue indefinitely on registered Such insurance is available only where it appears that properties and, importantly, on unregistered ones until no liability is registered. Where liability is registered, the first sale after the deadline. It was the ultimate insurance is not available. Where there is no awareness long-grass manoeuvre, simply delaying the problem of the possibility that the liability might be claimed, no until the end of the 10-year period—now—but doing insurance is purchased; I doubt whether many of us little to solve it. In the meantime, an unknown number here today have such insurance. For most property of householders and landowners in an unknown number owners, the registration of the liability means that they of faced the threat that chancel repair liability will have to pay large sums at regular intervals for ever, might be registered on their property, even though its passing on the liability to anyone foolish enough to buy existence had been entirely forgotten. their property. As the deadline looms, the reality is becoming clearer for many small and unfortunate landowners. Evidence Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): I congratulate my that I have seen from the Land Registry suggests that hon. Friend on securing this debate. Does he agree that, there has been a rush of registrations. It is believed that as pointed out by my constituent, the Rev. Greg Yerbury about 5,200 churches are entitled to claim the cost of of Penkridge, the matter applies not just to rural parishes chancel repairs from the lay rector. The majority of but to many urban parishes as well? People might think those lay rectors will be major institutions, but a significant that it is just a matter of country churches, but it is not. minority will not. Let us say that just 10% of the parishes have private householders as lay rectors and Peter Luff: My hon. Friend, who I am glad to see has that the average number of householders and small made it to this debate, anticipates the point that I was landowners affected in a parish is about 30—the number just about to make. I agree entirely. His constituent has in the parish of Broadway in my constituency, where the been in touch with me, too, and I welcome the situation arose recently. That would give us about 500 correspondence that I have had with him. parishes and 15,000 private individuals. This debate is Other people say that householders can commute the about the rights and freedoms of that small group. They sum by paying a lump sum to the Church, but that, too, may not be numerous, but they face jeopardy. If the is an arbitrary and unfair tax. It might extinguish the Government believe in justice, they must take their liability, but at considerable cost to the householder. It plight seriously. is important to realise that there is generally no easy It is a real plight. The chancel of a mediaeval church way of telling whether the liability attaches to a property can constitute about one third of the total church unless it has been registered. Proximity to a church is no building. A repair bill of £200,000 would not be uncommon. measure of the likelihood that the liability attaches to a In the case of Broadway, a regular bill every decade or property. The land could be anywhere, town or country. so for about £7,000 can perhaps be expected. Fewer It just had to be purchased by the right person when householders in a parish with the liability would mean a Henry VIII sold it in the late 1530s. correspondingly higher sum. I know of at least one What transpired next was legal advice from the Church parish where only two properties are liable for repairing of England to dioceses that parishes should make efforts the chancel of the church. to register liability before the October 2013 deadline. 133WH Chancel Repair Liability17 OCTOBER 2012 Chancel Repair Liability 134WH

[Peter Luff] “Members of our Church have managed to obtain limited information but to further pursue the matter we will be forced to A parochial church council that did not register the obtain, and pay for, professional advice.” liability could be held in charity law to be in breach of Sadly, the Anglican church in Broadway was seen to its duty to maximise the income due to the charity. be behaving in a profoundly un-Christian way. As a Failure to do so would make individual churchwardens correspondent from another part of the country told and PCC members personally liable for the cost of me: chancel repairs. “As a former PCC member, I can only say that I would have Of course, had it not been for the Aston Cantlow resigned immediately, rather than be forced to implement what case, all this might have remained theoretical. Chancel can only be considered as a Draconian law. I also wonder if the repair liability had been entirely forgotten in many Second Commandment of our Lord Jesus—to Love our Neighbour—is being disregarded by any diocese that invokes parishes, but PCCs were now obliged to reactivate it. To such an unfair law.” make matters worse, English Heritage, showing what I can only describe as a regrettable lack of understanding, To decree that a very small and random proportion of said that it would not provide funding for the repair of Broadway’s 2,000 or so inhabitants should, irrespective historic churches whose PCC had declined to enforce of their financial standing or personal faith, suddenly the liability. assume liability for the repair of an ancient church, is just plain wrong. The arbitrariness flew in the face of all A perfect storm now faced many PCCs, including the Christian teaching. Broadway PCC with responsibility for the wonderful mediaeval church of St Eadburgha, which dates back to To quote another parish in another diocese: the 12th century. PCCs generally do not want to enforce “The PCC is concerned at the enormous damage that registering the liability against their neighbours and friends. If they liability would cause to the reputation of the church in the local enforce the liability for the first time in living memory, community and the adverse effect this would have on the pastoral mission of the church, the furtherance of which is the first they incur the wrath and indignation of the householders function of the PCC.” and landowners who were living in happy ignorance of their liability. If they do not, they become personally The incoming vicar of Broadway, the Rev. Michelle liable for the repairs and lose all grant aid from English Massey, realised that that could be the key to resolving Heritage. It is no surprise to me that since I began this the dilemma. If enforcing the liability was an obligation campaign, I have heard from parishes and dioceses the imposed on the PCC as trustees, would it also not be length and breadth of England: from Norfolk, York, true that, if to enforce the liability was demonstrably Cambridgeshire, Devon and Kent to Somerset, Oxfordshire, un-Christian, that too would put the PCC in breach of Cornwall, Staffordshire and Wiltshire. The issue is alive its charitable responsibilities? Here was an ingenious again, and communities around the country are living paradox worthy of Gilbert and Sullivan, were the in fear. consequences not so serious for everyone involved. At this point, I must turn the finger of blame on the It transpired that other PCCs from around the country, national structures of the Church of England. Perhaps also aware of the paradox, had sought the guidance of because it did not appreciate the growing scale of the the Charity Commission under section 110 of the Charities problem and the increasing number of parishes caught Act 2011 and been informed that, on the basis of the up in it, the Church seems to have made no attempt to specific circumstances in each case and with no general understand the implications of the advice that it offered precedent set, they would be deemed to have behaved and given no guidance on how dioceses should explain responsibly as trustees if they decided not to enforce the the other option open to PCCs, for there is another liability. The Broadway PCC put together a compelling option; I would like the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia case outlining the ways in which registration of the Griffith) to listen carefully to this point. liability would work against their fundamental duties and the Charity Commission, with commendable speed, The consequence in Broadway of the sudden arrival responded saying that it agreed. Broadway PCC was of letters from the Land Registry on the doormats of 30 free not to enforce the liability and the PCC members local families, the Broadway Trust and landowners, would not be held personally liable. some of whom live many miles away, was dismay, anger and cries of anguish. I heard that anger for myself at a The Charity Commission has recently put together public meeting in the village. Acting with the best of some excellent advice to PCCs, which is now available intentions and pursuing the only route that it believed on its website. All parishes worried about the issue to be open to it, the PCC had made enemies of a large should read it. The advice concludes: number of local people. A diligent process of mapping, “Section 110 advice can provide additional reassurance for done entirely by volunteers comparing ancient maps PCC members that they have acted correctly and in accordance with modern Ordnance Survey ones, had caused chaos. with their duties by protecting them against the possibility of any subsequent legal challenge to their decision. We are willing to It is not an easy job. consider providing such advice where PCCs consider there is a As one vicar from elsewhere in the country wrote to real likelihood of their decision being challenged and they are me: able to present us with a substantive case explaining how they have reached their decision.” “It is not only a matter of the resentment that some parishioners are expressing when they find their properties are burdened with Meanwhile, and very happily, responsibility for the CRL. I am also concerned about the thousands of volunteer grant funding of repairs to historic churches is being hours being expended on trying to trace, map and register CRL, transferred from English Heritage to the Heritage Lottery often fruitlessly.” Fund. In line with that excellent organisation’s reputation In other parishes, there were no volunteers. As a for pragmatism, the fund has told me that it will not churchwarden a good long way from Worcestershire require church communities to register the liability to told me: receive grant funding, so all is well—not quite. 135WH Chancel Repair Liability17 OCTOBER 2012 Chancel Repair Liability 136WH

There are at least three remaining problems. First, deadline for the registration of chancel repair liability. I and perhaps most importantly, many parishes are unaware am replying as the Minister with responsibility for of the options open to them if they do not wish to set general land law in England and Wales. neighbour against neighbour. Secondly, even though The debate has highlighted the issues that people the current PCC in Broadway and other similar parishes affected by chancel repair have to address in light of the have decided not to enforce or register the liability, and October 2013 deadline. I do not underestimate the even though a liability unregistered by October 2013 seriousness and difficulty of those issues, and the problems cannot be enforced subsequently if the property is sold, that they can cause for communities; I am, however, for it could still be enforced by a future PCC on a property reasons that I will explain, not persuaded that any that has not changed hands. A decision taken now not change in the law is necessary. I know this conclusion to enforce a liability does not mean that a future PCC will be disappointing to my hon. Friend, but I will keep might not decide differently. In practice, therefore, every the matter under consideration and will monitor landholder aware of his liability, which continues until developments carefully. the time of first sale after October 2013, cannot obtain As we have heard, chancel repair liability is an ancient, insurance and, until his property is sold, could still face but enforceable, part of the land law of England and the possibility of a future PCC coming after him for the Wales, whereby property owners can be compelled to costs of chancel repair. pay for the repair of the chancel of a church. The The third problem is time. Will there be time to liability is thought to benefit about 5,200 ancient churches, ensure that all PCCs are aware of the courses of action and to burden a large number of properties. Liability as open to them and, where necessary, for them to secure between owners is joint and several. However, the present Charity Commission approval not to enforce the liability? owners of the properties affected by the liability are not Is there a real risk that a failure to get section 110 the only people to whom chancel repair liability and the guidance from the commission could leave PCCs in a approaching deadline for registration are important. legal limbo, with liabilities unregistered and personal Anyone seeking to buy a property will want to know liability a real possibility? I think so. whether it may be affected by chancel repair liability. The solution for my Broadway constituents is easy, I Searches will be conducted and insurance may be taken think. A simple piece of legislation is needed to ensure out. that, where a PCC acts on the advice of the Charity On the other side of the liability, the owners of the Commission and chooses not to enforce the liability, its benefit of the liability will have issues to address. In decision is binding in perpetuity and cannot be revisited. England, the benefit is usually owned by the local A PCC can choose to sell land or buildings. It should parochial church council. The members of the council, also be enabled to renounce its right to claim chancel who are essentially charity trustees in relation to their repair liability in perpetuity. In terms of ensuring that local church, have potentially difficult decisions to make other parishes are aware of the options, I hope today’s about registration and, should it be necessary, enforcement debate will help draw attention to the issue and will of the liability. focus the national Church authorities on what I see as serious neglect of their responsibilities. Nia Griffith: Given the difficulties the Minister has The Church of England, at national and diocesan just referred to, could there not be a simpler solution by level, must act urgently to help PCCs to navigate their doing away with the need to have the liability in the first way round the minefield through which they are required place? It seems very unfair, and she has just pointed out to pass, drawing their attention to the very helpful why it would be very difficult to put a halfway solution advice of the Charity Commission. I am sure that the in place. Perhaps a final solution needs to be made that Government—the Minister is a very reasonable lady—will actually gets rid of it. wish to do more than casually assert that chancel repair liability is a legitimate property right, as they have done Mrs Grant: The main issue, though, is that it is a valid in the past. If they believe in the freedoms and democratic property right that has been upheld by the House of responsibilities with which I began this speech, they Lords. I will say a little more about the hon. Lady’s must find a way to ensure that the liability is fairly point as my speech develops. applied and that the outrageous arbitrariness of this In most situations concerning private property rights, archaic law is ended. only the parties directly involved are engaged, but with In essence, the solution revolves around giving PCCs chancel repair liability, the surrounding issues may be the right to renounce their right to the liability in important for the relationship of the clergy, congregation perpetuity and to make their decisions, intended to have and wider community in parishes where the liability permanent effect, watertight. The state should not arbitrarily exists and may be enforced. The approach of the deadline remove legitimate property rights, but where an organisation for registration may well have given everyone in those or individual wishes to give them up, the state should be groups pause for thought. willing to help them to do so. Chancel repair liability may be a complex problem, but it has, I believe, a simple In the midst of all the activity that registration or the solution, which I commend to the Minister. consideration of registration may have produced, however, we should not forget the essential fact that the existence of chancel repair liability over a property is long standing. 5.45 pm No new liabilities have been created. The registration of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice a notice of the liability or a caution against first registration (Mrs Helen Grant): It is a pleasure to serve under your on the land register merely preserves the right to make a chairmanship again, Mrs Riordan. I congratulate my claim. Properties subject to a notice or a caution are hon. Friend the Member for Mid Worcestershire (Peter therefore not subject to a new obligation. In legal terms, Luff) on securing a debate on the subject of the approaching in relation to such properties, nothing has really changed. 137WH Chancel Repair Liability17 OCTOBER 2012 Chancel Repair Liability 138WH

[Mrs Grant] Lords of the 2001 Court of Appeal decision in the Wallbank case. The Court of Appeal appeared to have Of course, if the owners did not know about the resolved all the issues to do with chancel repair liability obligation before registration, they will no doubt want when it decided that the liability was not enforceable, to be sure that the registration is correct, but the issues and the Land Registration Act 2002 was drafted on that brought out by registration would have arisen had the basis. The House of Lords subsequently decided that owner of the liability sought to enforce it. Failure to the liability was enforceable. In 2003, faced with a newly register may make a liability unenforceable, but registration resurrected chancel repair liability, the then Government does not guarantee that the claimed liability is legally responded by making a transitional provisions order enforceable. Whether a claim is sustainable will depend under the Land Registration Act, putting chancel repair on the facts of the case. Homeowners and other landowners liability on the same footing as other rights that had remain as free as they are at present to contest a claim. their status as overriding interests preserved for a period What registration removes is the uncertainty and of 10 years. unpredictability—the lack of discoverability—that currently Overriding interests are interests in land that bind a surround the possible existence of chancel repair liability. registered owner whether or not they are on the register. One of the aims of the 2002 Act was to bring more Peter Luff: What registration achieves is the unsaleability information on to the register, so that it formed a more of property. Where a parochial church council wishes to complete record of legal ownership. Chancel repair give up the right in perpetuity, the Government have a liability is a good example of the kind of hidden burden moral obligation to enable it to do so. that the policy was designed to expose. The October 2013 deadline for registration is a deadline in the sense Mrs Grant: My hon. Friend met with officials of the that the liability needs to be registered before that date Ministry of Justice yesterday and they had an opportunity to ensure that it affects those who subsequently buy the to discuss that and other issues, but he might also find it land involved. No fee is payable for applications or helpful to meet me at some point in the near future. If registrations made before that date. Registration will he could be a little patient and let me finish what I have generally still be possible after that date. to say, I might cast some further light on the matter. Naturally, the approach of the deadline has brought People should no longer be surprised to discover that about a number of registrations and, unsurprisingly, their property is subject—or, rather, claimed to be issues around chancel repair liability have been awoken subject—to chancel repair liability. It is a positive as the owners of the burden consider what to do, and development for property owners in general that chancel those subject to it are reminded—or perhaps learn for repair liability will be brought on to the register or the first time—that their property is claimed to be wither for want of registration. subject to chancel repair liability. Registration of chancel repair liability is of course No doubt property owners subject to chancel repair distinct from actual enforcement of payment of the liability would be delighted if the liability were to cease liability, which will only arise if the chancel needs to be to exist. The Law Commission recommended abolition repaired. The October deadline does not affect that or or apportionment of the liability as long ago as 1985. the type of decisions that parochial church councils and Abolition, however, would probably have to be accompanied other owners of the liability will have to make when by some form of compensation for the owners of the money needs to be raised. I do not deny that deciding liability, and that money would have to come from whether to register a notice or caution is a new step for somewhere. members of parochial church councils, but it is a one-off There is no need to invent ways to release properties and should not be any more onerous than past decisions from the liability. It can be done by private treaty, to do with enforcing the liability. although there are pitfalls, or under the formal procedure Such decisions may not be easy and legal advice may provided by section 52 of the Ecclesiastical Dilapidations well be necessary, but the Church Commissioners, the Measure 1923. I am not suggesting that they are easy or diocesan authorities and the Charity Commission are inexpensive options, but they are possible. available to help to some degree. For better or for worse, In conclusion, the requirement for registration will parochial church councils and others who own chancel achieve a much better balance in the law between the repair liability have an asset entrusted to them for a interests of the owners of chancel repair liability, the specific purpose. I accept that they may not wish to interests of those who are subject to the liability and enforce the liability to preserve the harmony of their the interests of those who may at some time in the local communities, but they cannot wish away their future become subject to the liability. I am grateful to responsibilities and, in any event, the providers of public my hon. Friend for bringing the matter before us today. funding for the maintenance of historic buildings will We have had an intelligent and informed discussion. I almost certainly take a close look at the reasons behind am not persuaded that the case for a change in the law any decision not to register or enforce the liability. has been made, but I shall of course keep the matter We need to be clear about the nature of the deadline under careful review. of 13 October 2013. The date was the 10th anniversary Question put and agreed to. of the coming into force of the Land Registration Act 2002, and it is worth remembering why chancel repair liability became subject to a registration requirement. 5.55 pm The need arose with the 2003 reversal by the House of Sitting adjourned. 23WS Written Ministerial Statements17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 24WS

of the Financial Services Authority and chief executive- Written Ministerial designate of the new Financial Conduct Authority to consider immediate reforms to LIBOR and to report Statements back by the end of September. On the 28 September—13 weeks later—Mr Wheatley Wednesday 17 October 2012 presented his review to the Government. I am very grateful to Mr Wheatley and his team for their excellent work on this matter. TREASURY This statement sets out the Government’s response to the Wheatley review of LIBOR. Banking The Wheatley review made 10 main recommendations: 1. The new Financial Conduct Authority should regulate the The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Sajid Javid): submission to, and administration of, LIBOR—and that Today, the Government announce the exit on 18 October there should be criminal sanctions for any attempted of the Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) from the asset manipulation. protection scheme (APS). 2. The British Bankers’ Association (BBA) should make an orderly transfer of responsibility for LIBOR to a new The APS, announced in January 2009, was created to administrator, selected by an independent committee. enable the UK Government to provide participating 3. The new administrator should scrutinise submissions and institutions with protection against future credit losses regularly review the effectiveness of LIBOR. on defined portfolios of assets in exchange for a fee. 4. There should be a new code of conduct for submitters, The scheme provided support to RBS during and in approved by the Financial Conduct Authority. the immediate aftermath of the financial crisis. However, 5. LIBOR should, as far as possible, be corroborated by as the bank has continued to stabilise and manage down transaction data in line with the guidelines in the review. non-performing assets, the APS no longer provides 6. To improve this ability to corroborate submissions, the material benefit in strengthening RBS’s financial position. number of currencies and maturities for which submissions Today, having reached the minimum fee of £2.5 billion are made should be cut substantially to achieve a sharper and with no payout under the scheme deemed likely, the focus on the more heavily used benchmarks. Government have agreed with RBS to allow its exit. 7. Submissions should be published, but after three months to avoid the incentive for banks to try to flatter their perceived The Government launched the Asset Protection Agency credit standing and reduce the opportunity for collusion. in December 2009 to manage the APS on behalf of Her 8. The Government should provide the Financial Services Majesty’s Treasury. Now that RBS has exited the APS, Authority with a reserve power to compel banks to submit the agency has fulfilled its objectives and will aim to to LIBOR. close on 31 October 2012. 9. All market participants should consider whether LIBOR This represents an important milestone on RBS’s is the most appropriate rate for their needs and to ensure path of recovery and towards a return to the private that their contracts have workable contingency provisions. sector. 10. The UK, European and international authorities should establish clear principles for global benchmarks. It also removes a substantial contingent liability from the Government’s balance sheet. At its peak, the APS The Government fully endorse every one of these pledged £400 billion of taxpayer support to the UK recommendations. All institutions involved in the process banking sector, and by exiting the APS this figure is of setting LIBOR should implement them. For those reduced from approximately £40 billion to zero. During recommendations that require Government action, we this Parliament the taxpayer guarantee to the sector has will take it without delay. fallen by over £450 billion, a drop of almost 95%. The Government will bring forward amendments to the Financial Services Bill to implement those LIBOR (Wheatley Review) recommendations that require primary legislation. These amendments will enable the submission of rates to benchmarks such as LIBOR and the administration of The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Greg Clark): such benchmarks to be brought within the scope of At the end of June it was revealed that LIBOR—the regulation. The power to regulate these activities will be London interbank offered rate, the benchmark used in vested in the new Financial Conduct Authority. Existing trillions of pounds worth of financial contracts—had offences covering the making of misleading statements, been subject to repeated attempts at manipulation. under section 397 of the Financial Services and Markets The attempted manipulation of LIBOR is totally Act, will be extended to capture the making of misleading unacceptable and has further undermined trust in the statements to manipulate benchmarks such as LIBOR. financial services industry—without which this vital The Financial Conduct Authority will have the lead role sector cannot operate. in investigating the possible commission of such offences Although the abuse is by no means confined to and bringing prosecutions. London—banks and benchmarks in a number of Most people expect that the law should be respected jurisdictions have been implicated, including Euribor and enforced at all levels of society. If someone breaks and Tibor—I am determined that we in this country the law, they should be punished. Where the crime is should move quickly to restore credibility to this globally serious, the punishment should reflect this. The Government important benchmark and repair the damage to London’s also intend to legislate to enable the Financial Conduct reputation caused by this behaviour and the failure of Authority to make rules requiring authorised persons the regulatory sector to prevent it. to contribute to the LIBOR setting process. Draft legislation In July, one week after the scandal came to light, the and further details of these measures will be deposited Chancellor asked Martin Wheatley, the managing director in due course in the Libraries of both Houses. 25WS Written Ministerial Statements17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 26WS

But statutory regulation and criminal enforcement the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon) who is alone are insufficient. LIBOR is a mechanism created responsible for natural environment, water and rural by the market for use by the market. That is why it is affairs. Richard Lochhead MSP and Alun Davies AM right that some of Mr Wheatley’s recommendations fall will also attend. to the industry to implement. The first day will include discussions on both fisheries The Government agree with Mr Wheatley that, in and agriculture. On fisheries the discussion will cover order to restore credibility to the LIBOR setting process, the European Maritime and Fisheries Fund (EMFF). the BBA should give up its operational role with regards On agriculture there will be further discussion of the to the computation, administration and governance of CAP reform proposals on direct payments, the single LIBOR. My noble Friend Baroness Hogg has agreed to CMO regulation, and possibly the horizontal regulation. chair a panel of independent experts tasked with identifying There will be a presentation by the Commission on the an appropriate successor to the BBA. financing of the CAP. Other urgent reforms will be implemented by the The Council will also discuss the adoption of a BBA and, in time, by the new LIBOR administrator—such standard setting maximum residual levels for ractopamine as phasing out the benchmark rates for those currencies by the Codex Alimentarius Commission. and maturities wherever they are not heavily used by the On the second day the Council will return to the EU market and there is an available alternative. maritime and fisheries fund. There will also be discussions The recommendation to consider the use of benchmarks about Baltic sea stocks, the EU/Norway 2013 catch in other financial and commodities markets will be quota and the International Commission for the taken forward through the relevant international bodies. Conservation of Atlantic Tunas (ICCAT) annual meeting. These discussions have already commenced in the Financial Stability Board, the International Organisation of Security One item under any other business has been confirmed, Commissioners (IOSCO) and the institutions of the a report on the 32nd Conference of Directors of EU European Union. The Government stand ready to work Paying Agencies. with their international partners to ensure that we can have confidence in the integrity of all major global benchmarks. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE The Government recognise that the LIBOR scandal cannot be seen as an isolated incident. There are wider standards of integrity and ethics in banking which have Relations between Sudan and South Sudan compromised the confidence and trust between banks and the businesses, customers and general public they The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign exist to serve. and Commonwealth Affairs (Mark Simmonds): I would Parliament has established the Parliamentary like to update the House on developments in the relationship Commission on Banking Standards under the chairmanship between Sudan and South Sudan, and what action the of the hon. Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie) and UK took to support the negotiations between the two including similarly respected Members of both Houses. countries that led to the signing of nine agreements in We all look forward to receiving the recommendations Addis Ababa on 27 September. of the commission by early next year. The African Union has been facilitating discussion of The financial services industry is of great importance a number of important issues that were unresolved at to this country. It employs, directly and indirectly, 2 million the date of South Sudan’s secession in July 2011. A people, in every part of the United Kingdom. The breakdown in talks at the start of this year was followed essential condition for the functioning of the financial by shutdown of oil production in South Sudan and an services industry is trust. The behaviour that has been increase in tensions and military actions by both countries uncovered in the LIBOR scandal corrodes that trust, across their shared border. This put a great strain on the and the behaviour of a few has tainted the reputation of already struggling economies of both countries. an industry in which the vast majority of people have In response to the worsening situation, the Peace and been proud to work, not least because it has been Security Council of the African Union set out a road associated with integrity and responsibility. map for resumed talks towards a comprehensive agreement. We owe it to all of those people as well as to the This agreement was endorsed by the UN Security Council millions of people who rely on the financial services in its resolution 2046. Five months of intensive dialogue industry in their day-to-day lives and in running businesses within the framework of the road map, and UNSCR to restore that reputation for probity and strength. The 2046, led to a four-day presidential summit between the reforms that Martin Wheatley has recommended are a two countries in late September, and the signing of an significant step towards achieving this goal. overarching presidential agreement on co-operation, and eight detailed agreements between the two countries ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS on 27 September. Agriculture and Fisheries Council Negotiations have been facilitated throughout by the African Union high-level implementation panel led by former President Thabo Mbeki. The UK has provided The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and funding for the work of the panel and for the negotiating Rural Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson): The next Agriculture teams. We have seconded staff to offer expert advice on and Fisheries Council is on Monday 22 October and security and other issues, and deployed diplomatic support Tuesday 23 October in Luxembourg. I will be representing to implementation of the road map. The UK special the UK, accompanied by the Under-Secretary of State representative for Sudan and South Sudan and other for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend officials have been involved at key stages of the negotiations. 27WS Written Ministerial Statements17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 28WS

The agreements signed in Addis Ababa are a significant the Co-ordination for Humanitarian Affairs estimated step forward. In particular, they open the way for the that 212,000 refugees had fled to neighbouring countries establishment of a safe demilitarized border zone and as a result of the fighting and humanitarian situation. deployment of a joint border verification and monitoring Both parties in the conflict agreed a proposal put mechanism with international involvement, as a means forward by the African Union, the United Nations and of avoiding military confrontation at the border and the League of Arab States for full independent humanitarian attempting to prevent cross-border assistance to rebel access. However, no substantive progress has been made groups in either country. The agreements also allow implementing these agreements since they were signed. significant improvements in practical co-operation, We continue to press the Government of Sudan in including on cross-border trade, the rights of citizens, particular to allow impartial delivery of aid to areas and on the payments for transit of oil. These measures held by the SPLM-N. should help alleviate the economic difficulties both Ultimately a permanent cessation of hostilities in countries have faced in recent months. Southern Kordofan and Blue Nile must be agreed, and There are, however, still significant elements of a a political process established to address the causes of comprehensive agreement that are outstanding. We regret the conflict. Wider national reform will be necessary to that no agreement was reached on the final status of address these conflicts and others in Sudan’s periphery Abyei, despite President Mbeki’s presentation of a as well as the aspirations of all Sudanese people. The comprehensive proposal on the subject, and final UK will continue to press the Government of Sudan demarcation of the international border remains subject and the SPLM-N to recognise that there is no military to Sudan and South Sudan settling a number of disputes solution to their disputes, and that they must agree a and claims. We have urged both countries to press on cessation of hostilities and enter into negotiations. We immediately with negotiation on these remaining issues, will work closely with the African Union, the Arab in the spirit of compromise that brought the latest League, President Mbeki’s high-level implementation round of talks to a successful conclusion. panel and through the UN Security Council to this end. We are deeply worried by the lack of progress in the Sino-British Joint Declaration on Hong Kong parallel talks between the Government of Sudan and the Sudanese People’s Liberation Movement—North The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth (SPLM-N) to end the conflicts in Southern Kordofan Affairs (Mr William Hague): The latest report on the and Blue Nile, which also form part of the African implementation of the Sino-British Joint Declaration Union’s road map and UN Security Council resolution on Hong Kong was published today. Copies have been 2046. Both sides appear to be set on a military solution placed in the Library of the House. A copy of the that is having a serious humanitarian impact on civilians report is also available on the Foreign and Commonwealth in both states. The indiscriminate military tactics employed Office website: www.fco.gov.uk. The report covers the by the Sudanese armed forces are a cause of particular period from 1 January to 30 June 2012. I commend the concern. As of the end of September, the UN Office for report to the House.

279W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 280W

international standards and may help to prevent delays Written Answers to to the processing of the application. There is no record of representations being received on this subject. Questions Police: Powers

Wednesday 17 October 2012 Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when the Government plans to publish its response to the consultation on police powers to promote and maintain public order, which closed in January 2012; HOME DEPARTMENT and when the Government will announce its position regarding the consultation on amending section 5 of Anti-slavery Day the Public Order Act 1986 to remove reference to insulting words or behaviour. [122767] Mr Clappison: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what plans she has to mark Damian Green: The Government is carefully considering Anti-Slavery Day on 18 October 2012. [121509] the responses to the consultation ‘Police Powers to Promote and Maintain Public Order’. The Government Mr Harper: Ten members of the Inter-Departmental will publish its response to the consultation in due Ministerial Group on Human Trafficking, including course. myself, are undertaking a range of activities, on or around Anti-Slavery Day, to raise awareness of this important issue. WALES Emergency Calls: Performance Standards Broadcasting Industry Susan Elan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what the average response times 11. John Howell: To ask the Secretary of State for to 999 emergency calls were in September (a) 2010 and Wales what recent discussions he has had with (b) 2012. [122555] ministerial colleagues and others on the broadcasting industry in Wales. [122196] Damian Green: The requested information is not collected centrally by the Home Office. Stephen Crabb: The Secretary of State for Wales, my right hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West (Mr Extradition: USA Jones), and I have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues and others on the broadcasting industry in Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Wales including a meeting yesterday with Teledwyr Department whether the UK-US extradition treaty of Annibynnol Cymru, the Welsh independent producers. 2003 has been ratified by both parties and has entered into force. [122741] City Regions

Mr Harper: The treaty was signed by the Governments 13. Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for of the UK and USA on 31 March 2003. The treaty was Wales what discussions he has had with ministerial approved by the US Senate in September 2006 and the colleagues and others on the development of city US Instrument was signed by the then President in regions in Wales. [122198] December 2006. The treaty entered into force when the Governments exchanged Instruments of Ratification Mr David Jones: The development of city regions is on 26 April 2007. important for economic growth in Wales and I have Since the UK-US treaty entered into force, it has already discussed this matter with the First Minister. I been amended by the UK-US Instrument to the EU-US will be undertaking further conversations with my Agreement on Extradition, which entered into force on ministerial colleagues. 1 February 2010. Apprentices Identity and Passport Service Mike Crockart: To ask the Secretary of State for Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for the Wales (1) how many apprentices working in his Department Home Department what representations the Identity are (a) paid and (b) completing a qualification as part and Passport Service has received from people who of the apprenticeship; [123099] find it distressing to remove their glasses when required (2) how many (a) paid apprentices and/or (b) paid to do so by the Identity and Passport Service. [122785] interns are employed in his Department. [123100]

Mr Harper: Passport applicants are recommended to Stephen Crabb: There are two apprentices currently remove their glasses for the passport photographs in working in the Wales Office. Both are paid and are order to prevent glare and to prevent the frames of the completing a qualification as part of their apprenticeship. glasses from covering the applicant’s eyes. This will help There are currently no interns working in the Wales to ensure that the photograph meets the relevant Office. 281W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 282W

West Coast Railway Line Annual Court Proceedings statistics for 2012 are planned for publication in May 2013. Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Number of persons found guilty at all courts and sentenced to what discussions he has had on the effects in Wales of immediate custody for offences relating to animal cruelty1, England the franchise decision for the West Coast Main Line. and Wales, 2009-112,3 [122195] 2009 2010 2011 Found 1,132 1,129 1,358 Mr David Jones: The Secretary of State for Transport, guilty my right hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire Dales Immediate 102 75 102 (Mr McLoughlin), has assured me that there will be no custody impact on services as a result of the West Coast Main 1 The offences of animal cruelty are covered by the following Acts; Line franchise decision. Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986, Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, Performing Animals (Regulations) Act 1925, Docking and Nicking of Horses Act 1949, Pet Animals Act 1951, Animal Health Act 1981, Animals (Cruel Poisons) Act 1962, Animal WOMEN AND EQUALITIES Boarding Establishments Act 1963, Riding Establishments Acts 1964 and 1970, Slaughter of Poultry Act 1967, Agriculture (Miscellaneous Equality Provisions) Act 1968, Protection of Badgers Act 1992, Wild Mammals (Protection) Act 1996, Fur Farming (Prohibition) Act 2000 and the Mr Raab: To ask the Minister for Women and Animal Welfare Act 2006. 2 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons Equalities pursuant to the written ministerial statement for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they of 15 May 2012, Official Report, column 29WS on were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or Equalities/Equality and Human Rights Commission, more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is what progress she has made with the review of the imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more general and specific duties under the Public Sector offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. Equality Duty established by the Equality Act 2010; 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and when the Government expects to publish its and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have findings. [122766] been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken Maria Miller: The review of the Public Sector Equality to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. Duty is under way. At this stage, we are focused on Source: analysing existing research and case law but will shortly Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice commence the gathering of evidence more broadly especially from those who have knowledge and experience about Burglary: Prosecutions the operation of the duty within their organisations. We announced in the written ministerial statement of 15 May Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for 2012, Official Report, column 29WS, that we will be Justice how many prosecutions of homeowners after a completing the review by April 2013. A decision on how domestic burglary there have been in the last five years. and when the findings are published has not yet been [123195] made. Jeremy Wright: Information held centrally by the Ministry of Justice on the Court Proceedings Database does not contain information about the circumstances JUSTICE behind each case, beyond the description provided in Animal Welfare the statute under which proceedings are brought. It is not possible to identify from this centrally held information whether a defendant proceeded against for any specific Mark Menzies: To ask the Secretary of State for offence is a homeowner following a domestic burglary. Justice (1) how many people received custodial sentences for animal cruelty offences in (a) 2009-10, (b) 2010-11 and (c) 2011-12; and how many sentences Criminal Cases Review Commission were for more than six months in each of those years; [121473] Mr Meacher: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (2) how many people were convicted of animal if he will initiate a review into the operations of the cruelty offences in (a) 2009-10, (b) 2010-11 and (c) Criminal Cases Review Commission. [122860] 2011-12. [121474] Damian Green: All non-departmental public bodies Jeremy Wright: The number of persons found guilty are subject to triennial reviews as part of the Government’s at all courts and given a custodial sentence for animal commitment to transparency and accountability. The cruelty offences in England and Wales, from 2009 to Commission’s triennial review is due this autumn and 2011 can be viewed in the table. an announcement will be made shortly. There were no sentences imposed greater than six months for animal cruelty offences for the period given Domestic Violence: Legal Aid Scheme in the table. The main offences dealing with animal cruelty in the Animal Welfare Act 2006 are summary Stella Creasy: To ask the Secretary of State for only and carry a maximum penalty of six months’ Justice what the (a) age, (b) family status and (c) imprisonment and/or a level fine (£5,000). ethnicity was of each claimant of legal aid for matters 283W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 284W related to domestic violence in each of the last five Ethnicity 2007-02 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 years for which figures are available; and if he will make a statement. [121504] White British 31,068 34,615 33,668 26,434 23,483 White Irish 201 237 236 185 163 White Other 687 773 893 818 702 Mrs Grant: The Legal Services Commission is responsible for the operational delivery of legal aid and is able to Total 43,908 48,885 47,720 37,878 34,113 provide the information as follows. Electronic Tagging The data covers protective injunction cases and private family law matters where domestic violence has been identified as a primary factor. The data includes both Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice initial advice and assistance (‘Legal Help’) as well as when he expects to announce the winning bid for his legal representation. Department’s contract relating to the tagging of Volumes by age bands1 offenders due to be implemented in April 2013. [123041] Age range 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 0- 13,530 1 0 2 1 Jeremy Wright: The electronic monitoring provision Unknown under the future competition will be delivered through 1 - Under 422 608 30j 414 458 four separate contracts: Monitoring and Systems 18 Integration; Software; Hardware; and Networks. We 2-18to 4,929 7,608 8,339 7,344 7,757 25 expect to announce the award of these contracts early 3-26to 10,242 16,435 16,082 12,891 11,827 in 2013 prior to implementation. 35 4-36to 9,486 15,234 14,608 11,253 9,253 Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 45 how much his Department has budgeted for the 5-46to 3,789 6,600 5,904 4,388 3,540 tendering process for its April 2013 contract relating to 55 the tagging of offenders. [123042] 6-56to 976 1,620 1,555 1,085 899 65 Jeremy Wright: Over the life of the re-competition 7 - 65+ 534 779 671 501 378 and procurement of this service, under current plans, Total 43,908 48,885 47,720 37,878 34,113 the Ministry of Justice expects to have spent around 1 Please note age only started being recorded from October 2007 for £3.5 million on delivering the new Electronic Monitoring the legal help scheme. Volumes by marriage status1 contracts. Marriage status 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 Prison Service

Cohabit 643 646 596 476 383 Divorced 1,254 1,280 1,104 842 758 Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Married 1,890 1,973 1,782 1,473 1,353 how many full-time equivalent employees there were in Separate 4,024 4,674 4,554 3,749 3,593 the Prisons Service on 30 September 2012. [123038] Single 9,262 10,561 10,733 9,011 9,754 Unknown 26,717 29,630 28,822 22,263 18,196 Jeremy Wright: Figures for 30 September 2012 are Widowed 118 121 129 64 76 not yet available. Total 43,908 48,885 47,720 37,878 34,113 At 31 August 2012, the latest period for which figures 1 Please note marital status is only recorded for the civil representation are available, the number of full-time equivalent staff scheme. directly employed by the National Offender Management Ethnicity 2007-02 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 Service (NOMS) was 42,345. This includes staff in HM Prison Service (HMPS) and NOMS headquarters. Asian or Asian 232 309 355 303 275 These figures exclude the 1,282 FTE who are on the British Other Ministry of Justice payroll, but work for the National Bangladeshi 355 450 430 477 421 Offender Management Service. HMPS figures include Black (African) 588 654 647 560 520 all those directly employed in public sector prisons and Black (Caribbean) 701 741 722 576 478 area support teams, but not regional services. HMPS Black (Other) 197 231 260 200 190 and headquarters figures include deputy director of Chinese 45 48 54 59 27 custody (DDC) offices and regional offices. Indian 633 728 665 514 419 Staff employed in private sector prisons are not included Mixed Other 101 134 126 117 94 in these figures. Mixed White and 69 78 65 56 55 Asian Mixed White and 56 65 64 57 41 Prisons Black African Mixed White and 197 231 226 211 181 Black Caribbean Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for Other 1,432 1,755 1,543 1,132 1,001 Justice what steps he is taking to improve violence Pakistani 1,216 1,301 1,359 1,167 1,117 reduction and suicide and self-harm monitoring procedures at prisons in (a) Merseyside and (b) England and Unknown 6,130 6,535 6,407 5,012 4,946 Wales. [121908] 285W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 286W

Jeremy Wright: All prisons have broad, integrated Minister Contact and evidence-based safer custody management policies and procedures that seek to reduce prisoner distress and 24 July 2012 Crispin Blunt Visited HMP Birmingham, run by G4S provide a safer environment for all who live and work 11 September Jeremy Wright Visited HMP Thameside, run by Serco there. However, there is no central monitoring of regional 2012 or local initiatives, and to obtain such information would incur disproportionate costs. It is not possible, Prisons: Merseyside therefore, to specify any particular procedures in place at prisons in Merseyside. Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for The National Offender Management Service’s (NOMS) Justice (1) what steps his Department is taking to improve safer custody policy, which includes suicide/self-harm inductions for prisoners in (a) HMP Liverpool and (b) and violence, is outlined in Prison Service Instruction HMP Altcourse; [121909] 64/2011 entitled ″Management of prisoners at risk of harm to self, to others and from others (Safer Custody)″, (2) what steps he is taking to increase the safety of a copy of which is in the House Library. (a) prison staff and (b) prisoners in (i) HMP Liverpool and (ii) HMP Altcourse; [121910] The prison population contains a high proportion of very vulnerable individuals, many of whom have experienced (3) what assessment he has made of the effects of (a) negative life events that we know increase the likelihood HMP Liverpool and (b) HMP Altcourse’s learning of them harming themselves. An individually focussed and skills strategy on re-offending rates on Merseyside; prisoner care planning system—Assessment Care in [121911] Custody and Teamwork (ACCT)—for those identified (4) when he expects HM Inspectorate of Prisons to at risk of harm has helped prisons to manage self harm. undertake a review of the reducing re-offending strategy ACCT plans are opened proactively, often in advance of at (a) HMP Liverpool and (b) HMP Altcourse; and self harming behaviour. what support his Department is offering HMP Liverpool Prisons take extremely seriously the responsibility of with its plans to reduce re-offending. [121912] keeping staff, prisoners and visitors safe. The management of violence and its reduction is central to successful Jeremy Wright: The information is as follows: prison management. It is fundamental to NOMS’ objectives (1) All prisoners new to custody and/or new to the and vital to achieving the broad aims of safer custody. particular prison are provided with key information relevant to their first days in the establishment: to help Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice them understand their entitlements and responsibilities; what estimate his Department has made of the amount and how to access support available to them. Local it will receive from the disposal of HMP Ashwell and induction policies must be compliant with the national HMP Wellingborough. [123039] specification but will be tailored to local needs. The induction and first night procedures at HMP Jeremy Wright: The sale of the Ashwell prison site Liverpool are under ongoing review with continuous has not yet been completed and disclosing details at this improvements being made, including to the quality of stage of the amount the Ministry of Justice expects to the induction process. The majority of prisoners, including receive from its disposal may adversely affect future vulnerable prisoners receive their induction on the first negotiations. working day after their arrival or during their first week Options for the future use of the Wellingborough site into the prison. will be considered once the site is operationally closed. Induction now involves staff from other agencies who can offer support to the prisoner and this is all monitored. Prisons: Contracts for Services On arrival at Altcourse all new prisoners are provided Mrs Glindon: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice with current information on a range of support agencies what contacts there were between his ministerial team available. An educational assessment is completed during and any of the private-sector bidders during the the induction period as well as a medication review. current prisons market-testing evaluation process Altcourse also offers a wide range of support at induction before the recent announcement of a delay to that to those who may be vulnerable. Appropriate support is also provided for those with drug or alcohol dependency process. [122037] issues. Jeremy Wright: The current phase of prison competitions (2) On 22 June 2010, the Prison Officers’ Association was launched on 21 October 2011. Since then, Ministers (POA) and the chief executive officer of the National have had contacts with the private-sector bidders as Offender Management Service (NOMS) issued a joint shown in the following table. statement which gave a commitment to zero tolerance to violence in prisons including assaults on staff, visitors Minister Contact and prisoners. NOMS has a comprehensive violence management 11 November Crispin Blunt Visited HMP Peterborough, run by Sodexo 2011 information system in place which assists in the analysis 22 November Crispin Blunt Met Tony Leech, Managing Director of and robust management of violent incidents. Reducing 2011 Sodexo, at the Ministry of Justice violence is fundamental to NOMS’ objectives and vital 29 November Crispin Blunt Visited HMP Altcourse, run by G4S to achieving the broad aims of safer custody. 2011 Prisons take the responsibility of keeping staff, prisoners 20 February 2012 Crispin Blunt Visited HMP Oakwood, run by G4S and visitors safe extremely seriously. The management 1 March 2012 Crispin Blunt Visited HMP Doncaster, run by Serco of violence and its reduction is central to successful 287W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 288W prison management and both HMP Liverpool and figures outlined above were not found to be significantly different Altcourse continue to give it a high priority. Liverpool from what was expected after taking into account offence, offender is shortly to relaunch its violence reduction policy and and prison characteristics. there has been a decline in violent incidents in Altcourse. Issues surrounding safer prisons are also being dealt Public Expenditure with at a strategic level at the quarterly safer prisons and security forum which is held regionally involving Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice manager representatives from each establishment in the what budget his Department allocated to the (a) north west. Administrative Justice and Tribunals Council, (b) Assessor (3) In May 2011 NOMS published, jointly with the for Compensation for Miscarriages of Justice, (c) Civil Department for Business Innovation and Skills, a Review Justice Council, (d) Civil Procedure Rule Committee, of Offender Learning which evaluated the efficiency (e) Criminal Cases Review Commission, (f) Criminal and effectiveness of offender learning and proposed Injuries Compensation Authority, (g) Criminal Procedure recommendations for radical reform. In response to the Rule Committee, (h) Crown Court Rule Committee, review, a new contract for Offenders’ Learning and (i) Family Justice Council, (j) HM Inspectorate of Skills Service (OLASS) was launched in August this Prisons, (k) HM Inspectorate of Probation, (l) Insolvency year and is in place in the north west of England Rules Committee, (m) Judicial Appointments Commission, (including Liverpool). This will help offenders develop (n) Judicial Appointments and Conduct Ombudsman, the skills they need to become active in their communities, (o) Judicial Office, (p) Law Commission, (q) Legal gain employment, reform, and turn away from crime. Services Board, (r) Legal Services Commission, (s) Evidence suggests that individuals who are in employment National Offender Management Service, (t) Probation are between a third and a half less likely to reoffend. Service, (u) Court Funds Office, (v) Office of the Information Commissioner, (w) Office for Judicial Under the new arrangements, there will be a strong Complaints, (x) Legal Ombudsman, (y) Office of the focus on assessment of learning needs when prisoners Public Guardian, (z) Official Solicitor and Public Trustee, come into custody and addressing literacy and numeracy (aa) Parole Board, (bb) Prisons and Probation will be a priority where needed. 12 months prior to Ombudsman, (cc) Sentencing Council, (dd) Tribunal release prisoners will be provided with training that will Procure Committee, (ee) Commissioner for Victims prepare them for employment based on labour market and Witnesses and (ff) Youth Justice Board in (A) information from the areas into which they will be 2012-13, (B) 2013-14 and (C) 2014-15. [123040] released. NOMS will also be increasing access to apprenticeships and pre-apprenticeships for prisoners. Jeremy Wright: The resource budget allocations for NOMS has set up an Employers Forum for Reducing 2012-13 as on 15 October 2012 are as follows: Re-offending, led by a team of business representatives with real experience of working with prisoners and Organisation/body £000 ex-offenders, to help them better prepare for employment. Administrative Justice and 293 Altcourse, as a contracted prison, does not fall within 1 scope of the OLASS. However, the prison will be engaging Tribunals Council in local partnership working with a cluster of prisons in Criminal Cases Review 5,355 Committee Merseyside, Lancashire and Cumbria, to help them to Criminal Injuries Compensation 202,034 achieve better outcomes. All aspects of regime delivery Authority at Altcourse are intended to enhance employability and HM Inspectorate of Prisons 3,794 to reduce reoffending rates. HM Inspectorate of Probation 3,612 NOMS publishes quarterly prison reoffending rates Judicial Appointments 5.220 on the Justice website. The latest reoffending rates1 for Commission Liverpool were 55.4% for sentences less than 12 months; Judicial Appointments and 533 and 41.1% for sentences of 12 months or more. Conduct Ombudsman The latest reoffending rates for Altcourse were 59.7% Judicial Office 20,001 for sentences less than 12 months; and 41.2% for sentences Law Commission 3,400 of 12 months or more. These statistics are for all prisoners Legal Services Commission 2,071,365 released in the 12 month period ending September National Offender Management 2,658,000 2010. Service Probation Service 814,000 (4) HMIP is an independent body who set their own Office of the Information 4,463 inspection programme. HMIP last inspected HMP Commissioner Liverpool in December 2011 and the report was published Office of the Public Guardian (644) in May 2012. HMP Altcourse was last inspected in Official Solicitor and Public 4,973 January 2010 and the report was published in May Trustee 2011. Both inspections included a detailed examination Parole Board 11,652 of the establishments’ strategies for reducing reoffending. Prisons and Probation 5,230 The next inspection will be unannounced and will examine Ombudsman the progress they made in this area. Sentencing Council 1,544 1 Due to the different types of offenders held in each prison, raw Youth Justice Board 360,876 reoffending rates should not be used to make comparisons between 1 The Government intends to abolish the Administrative Justice and prisons. However, the Ministry of Justice has developed a statistical Tribunals Council under the Public Bodies Act 2011 during 2012-13. model that takes account of the variability in the mix of offenders As such funding had been allocated in 2012-13 to cover the costs of within each prison and which helps to explain if reoffending rates the AJTC until closure, currently expected to take place by end of are affected by the specific prison they arc discharged from. The January 2013. 289W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 290W

The final budget may vary depending on actual Legal Ombudsman expenditure and the Ministry’s priorities. No resource budget allocation has been provided to The Office of the Public Guardian is currently budgeting the Commissioner for Victims and Witnesses as the to receive more income than its expenditure. This is post is currently vacant. reflected in the organisation’s budget. Budgets for the The Department has not set budgets for 2013-14 and following bodies are part of larger budgets within the 2014-15. Budgets will be set as part of the Department’s core Department for which no distinct budget allocation regular annual budget allocation process. Allocations is made: will be made on the basis of need and according to Assessor for Compensation for Miscarriages of Justice departmental priorities. Civil Procedure Rule Committee Criminal Procedure Rule Committee Television: Licensing Insolvency Rules Committee Crown Court Rule Committee Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Court Funds Office how many people in each county in the north west of Tribunal Procedure Committee. England were prosecuted for not having a television licence in each of the last 10 years. [121074] Budgets for the following bodies are now part of the Judicial Office budget quoted above: Damian Green: The number of persons proceeded Civil Justice Council against at magistrates courts for offences of installing Family Justice Council or using a television receiver without the appropriate Office for Judicial Complaints licence in the North West region of England from 2002 In respect of the following bodies the cost is neutral to 2011 can be viewed in the table. because these bodies are funded by levies upon the legal Court proceedings data are not available at county profession: level. Data are thus provided in the table at police force Legal Services Board area level.

Number of persons proceeded against at magistrates courts for television licence evasion offences, by police force area in the North West of England, 2002 to 20111,2,3,4 Police force area 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011

Cheshire 3,777 3,036 3,211 2,902 2,817 3,865 2,700 3,532 3,285 3,100 Cumbria 18 761 677 749 892 1,249 1,044 913 987 1,179 Greater Manchester 5,685 4,483 9,685 9,847 11,084 10,616 8,366 9,991 10,421 10,281 Lancashire 5,058 3,824 4,145 6,270 5,291 5,786 5,552 5,387 5,271 5,991 Merseyside 7,849 6,238 5,987 8,391 7,064 5,140 7,873 8,129 8,202 8,667 Total North West 22,387 18,342 23,705 28,159 27,148 26,656 25,535 27,952 28,166 29,218 1 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 3 Data given for 2002 to 2006, as well as television licence evasion, include proceedings for summary offences under the Wireless Telegraphy Act 1949 to 1967. 4 Data given for 2007 to 2011 include offences of television licence evasion only under the Communications Act 2003. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice

BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Mike Crockart: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many (a) paid apprentices and (b) paid interns are employed in his Apprentices Department. [123070] Jo Swinson: The Department for Business, Innovation Mike Crockart: To ask the Secretary of State for and Skills currently employs (a) six apprentices, four of Business, Innovation and Skills how many apprentices whom are internal and two externally recruited and (b) working in his Department are (a) paid and (b) completing 34 graduate interns, all of whom are paid the appropriate a qualification as part of the apprenticeship. [123069] rate for the grade of work they are doing. Following the launch of a further internal apprenticeship scheme, a Jo Swinson: The Department for Business, Innovation number of additional members of staff will start and Skills currently has four internal apprentices (i.e. apprenticeships at the end of October 2012. existing staff) working to up-skill to national vocational qualification level 2 or 3. Following the launch of a Apprentices: Warrington further internal apprenticeship scheme, a number of additional members of staff will start apprenticeships Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, at the end of October. There are also two externally Innovation and Skills (1) how many apprenticeship recruited apprentices working to achieve a basic starts there were in Warrington in the (a) public and apprenticeship. All are paid. (b) private sector in each of the last five years; [122635] 291W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 292W

(2) how many people have successfully completed Extractive Industry Companies apprenticeships in Warrington in the (a) public and (b) private sector in each of the last five years. [122636] Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has made of Matthew Hancock: Table 1 shows the number of progress in reaching agreement on EU transparency apprenticeship programme starts and framework laws for extractive industry companies to report their achievements in Warrington local education authority payments to foreign governments at project level. between the 2006/07 and 2010/11 academic years. Data [122031] for 2010/11 is the latest year for which final data are available. Jo Swinson: The Government supports EU action to Table 1: Apprenticeship programme starts and achievements by geography, set a global standard for transparency in the payments 2006/07 to 2010/11 that extractive industries make to foreign governments. 2006/07 2007/08 2008/09 2009/10 2010/11 We are engaged in EU level negotiations on this issue Warrington Starts 940 1,060 1,220 1,890 2,440 as part of the directive on the annual financial statements, local education consolidated financial statements and related reports of authority certain types of undertakings. The European presidency Achievements 630 620 700 1,000 1,160 will soon begin discussions with the European Parliament Notes: 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. and the Commission to achieve compromise on outstanding 2. Geographic breakdowns are based upon the home postcode of the learner. issues. 3. Figures are based on the geographic boundaries as of May 2010. Source: Individualised Learner Record Green Investment Bank: Pendle We do not measure the number of apprenticeship starts in the public and private sector. Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for Information on the number of apprenticeship starts Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking by geography is published in a supplementary table to a to encourage green investment in Pendle constituency. quarterly Statistical First Release (SFR). The latest [122251] SFR was published on 11 October 2012: http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ Michael Fallon: We are committed to taking action statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_current now to put the whole economy on a low-carbon, resource http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ efficient path. In doing so we need to maintain UK statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_supplementary_tables/ competitiveness and lay the foundations for strong and Apprenticeship_sfr_supplementary_tables/ sustainable growth in the future. The Government is making rapid progress towards BAE Systems: EADS establishment of the UK Green Investment Bank, which will be a key component of the transition to a green Mr Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for economy. UK Green Investment Bank plc has now been Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking formed with funding of £3 billion; it will complement to separate his role under the Enterprise Act 2002 with other green policies to help accelerate additional capital regard to adjudicating on the proposed merger of BAE in green infrastructure. It is expected to be fully operational and EADS and his role as the guardian of the in the autumn, following state aid approval. In the Government’s golden share as a BAE shareholder. [R] interim, the Government’s UK Green Investments team [121972] (UKGI) is making Government investments in green infrastructure. Michael Fallon: BAE Systems and EADS have decided Following competitive processes, UKGI has committed not to proceed with the proposed merger. With no £180 million to specialist fund mangers to co invest merger proposed the Secretary of State for Business, equity in smaller waste infrastructure, energy from waste, Innovation and Skills, the right hon. Member for and non domestic energy efficiency projects. A pipeline Twickenham (), will not need to consider of further projects is under development. All these the use of powers in the Enterprise Act 2002 or the use investments will be made on market terms or meet the of the Special Share in BAE Systems. requirements for existing state aid exemptions or approvals. The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills Construction: Lancaster has a number of programmes that are relevant to the development of the UK’s green economy. Government Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for initiatives, such as the Regional Growth Fund (RGF) Business, Innovation and Skills what the monetary and the Advanced Manufacturing Supply Chain (AMSC) value is of the construction sector to the economy in fund encourage investment across sectors and regions, (a) Lancashire and (b) Pendle constituency. [122705] including green or low carbon sectors in the North West. The RGF allocated £7.5 million to the Accelerating Michael Fallon: In 2011, orders for new construction Business Growth Programme, a competitive grant work in Lancashire (excluding Blackpool and Blackpool scheme that helps fund business growth projects across with Darwen) amounted to £456 million. Latest figures Lancashire including Pendle, and includes green show that in the first half of 2012, new orders totalled projects. £262 million. In addition, last year the Government published Figures are not compiled for areas below local authority/ ’Enabling the Transition to a Green Economy’ which county level. will help inform the continuing dialogue between 293W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 294W

Government, business and communities. It sets out the Letter from Tim Moss, dated 14 September 2012: range of policies we are using to support the transition I am replying on behalf of Companies House to your Parliamentary to a green economy, the opportunities that are created Question tabled 13 September 2012, to the Secretary of State for and the implications for the way in which businesses Business, Innovation and Skills, UTN 121550. operate. Companies House does not currently use name-blank or Newspaper Licensing Agency anonymised sifting of applications to recruit staff. Letter from Sean Dennehey, dated 14 September 2012: Ian Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, I am responding in respect of the Intellectual Property Office Innovation and Skills what the cost to his Department to your Parliamentary Question tabled 13th September 2012, to was of Newspaper Licensing Agency licences for scanned the Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and content for each year since 2010. [122735] Skills. The Intellectual Property Office, an executive agency of BIS, Jo Swinson: Payments made to the Newspaper Licensing has used name-blanked applications for one external recruitment Agency include charges for the digital reproduction and campaign in the past 12 months. Standard practice is currently occasional copying of national, regional and foreign not to anonymise or name-blank application forms. publications. Letter from Heather Foster, dated 14 September 2012:

Financial year Total NLA payments excluding I write on behalf of Land Registry in response to your VAT (£) Parliamentary Question 121550 tabled on 13 September 2012 which asked the following: 2011-12 73,422.73 To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and 2010-11 85,406.23 Skills, to what extent his Department and the public bodies and agencies for which he is responsible used name-blank or anonymised Nottinghamshire sifting of applications to recruit staff in the last year for which information is available. Mr Spencer: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, I can confirm that Land Registry has not used name-blank or Innovation and Skills what ministerial visits to (a) the anonymised sifting of applications to recruit staff in the last year, City of Nottingham and (b) Nottinghamshire have nor during 2011/12. taken place since May 2010. [121758] I hope that you find this information useful. Jo Swinson: The Secretary of State for Business, Letter from Richard Judge, dated 14 September 2012: Innovation and Skills, the right hon. Member for The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation Twickenham (Vince Cable), visited Nottinghamshire on and Skills has asked me to reply to your question, to what extent 1 August 2011 and Nottingham on 31 May 2012, the his Department and the public bodies and agencies for which he is Minister for Universities and Science, the right hon. responsible used name-blank or anonymised sifting of applications Member for Havant (Mr Willetts), visited Nottingham to recruit staff in the last year for which information is available on 8 March 2012 and 19 September 2012, the Financial The Insolvency Service only has delegated responsibility to Secretary to the Treasury, the right hon. Member for recruit below Senior Civil Service level Anonymised sifting of Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark), visited Nottingham on applications is undertaken for all external recruitment it carries 30 August 2011 and 9 February 2012, the Minister of out. State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, the Letter from Dr VanessaLawrence CB, dated 14 September hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings 2012: (Mr Hayes), visited Nottingham on 20 October 2011, As Director General and Chief Executive of Ordnance Survey, 2 November 2011, 25 November 2011, 9 February 2012 I have been asked to reply to you in response to your Parliamentary and 11 May 2012, and the Minister of State for Trade Question asking the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Investment, Lord Green, visited Nottingham and and Skills “to what extent his Department and the public bodies Nottinghamshire on 26-7 July 2011, 1 March 2012 and and agencies for which he is responsible used name-blank or 26-7June 2012. anonymised sifting of applications to recruit staff in the last year for which information is available”. Recruitment Given the general presumption against recruitment within Government at the present time, Ordnance Survey’s recruitment Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for activity has been very limited, to business-critical roles, over the Business, Innovation and Skills to what extent his past 24 months. Ordnance Survey does not use name-blank or Department and the public bodies and agencies for anonymised sifting of applications to recruit staff. However, such which he is responsible used name-blank or anonymised sifting has been used as part of the process for selecting internal candidates into the corporate talent management scheme where sifting of applications to recruit staff in the last year for candidates may be personally known to all panel members. which information is available. [121550] Ordnance Survey adheres to all best practice standards regarding Jo Swinson [holding answer 18 September 2012]: The equality data—for example, age, gender, disability—which is collected as part of the application stage but which is not used during the core Department for Business, Innovation and Skills selection process. (BIS) did not use name-blank or anonymised sifting of applications to any extent in its recruitment of staff in I hope this information is of use. the last year. Letter from David Williams, dated 17 September 2012: I have asked chief executives of the executive agencies The UK Space Agency, an executive agency of the Department to respond directly to the right hon. Member. This for Business, Innovation and Skills, has not used name-blank or information is not held by BIS in respect of non- anonymised sifting of applications to recruit staff in the last year, departmental public bodies. as per the response to PQ415 in June 2012. 295W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 296W

Letter from Kim Thorneywork, dated 17 September 2012: Announcement on selected bids from the third bidding Thank you for your question in asking the Secretary of State round will be made this month. for Business, Innovation and Skills, to what extent his Department and the public bodies and agencies for which he is responsible Shops: Empty Property used name-blank or anonymised sifting of applications to recruit staff in the last year. Please be advised that the Skills Funding Agency only conducts Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for a process of using named applications for sifting recruitment Business, Innovation and Skills (1) how many shops purposes. have been empty in Ashfield constituency in (a) each Letter from John Hirst, dated 17 September 2012: of the last five years and (b) the latest period for which I am replying on behalf of the Met Office to your Parliamentary figures are available; [123056] Question tabled on 13 September 2012, UIN 121550 to the (2) how many shops have closed in (a) Ashfield Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills. constituency, (b) Nottinghamshire, (c) the East Midlands The Met Office recruitment process uses a system of anonymised and (d) England in (i) each of the last five years and (ii) sifting for all job applications. the latest period for which figures are available. [123057] I hope this helps. Letter from Peter Mason, dated 17 September 2012: Michael Fallon: This information is not held centrally. I am responding in respect of the National Measurement While there are commercial providers of such data, Office (NMO) to your Parliamentary Question tabled on 13 September these tend to be focused on limited geographical areas 2012, asking the Secretary of State, Department for Business, such as town centres, rather than entire administrative Innovation and Skills about the use of name-blank or anonymised areas. sifting of applications to recruit staff. However, as part of our commitment to improving NMO does not name blank or anonymise application forms our high streets, we are implementing virtually all of the for vacancies in the Agency. recommendations of the Portas review. Regional Assistance: Northern Ireland We have also taken steps to support all our town centres: doubled small business rate relief, given councils new powers to cut rates for local firms while scrapping Dr Alasdair McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State Whitehall rules that instructed them to hike parking for Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he charges, and outlined new plans to bring empty shops has made of the effect on Northern Ireland of back into use by changing their use for two years. proposals to remove automatic assisted area status for Northern Ireland in 2014. [123142]

Michael Fallon: The Government published the response to the consultation on revising the Industrial Development ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Act 1982 (IDA) on 28 June. The response confirms the Government’s intention to remove the automatic 100% Bovine Tuberculosis: Disease Control assisted area status of Northern Ireland, and to make a number of more technical revisions to update the IDA. Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for An impact assessment for all four proposed changes Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate he was included at annex 3 of the Industrial Development has made of the number of badgers within each pilot Act Revisions consultation document. However, the cull area. [122759] post 2013 allocation implications for Northern Ireland of removing the automatic 100% assisted area coverage Mr Heath: Badger population estimates for the pilot will not be known until the new regional aid guidelines areas have been generated using the methodology published are implemented by the European Commission in 2013 on the DEFRA website. and we start to draw up the 2014-2020 assisted areas We have yet to issue definitive target figures for the map. An economic and equality impact assessment will two areas, but the best estimate for the number of be undertaken at this time. badgers within each pilot area is, to the nearest 100: Regional Growth Fund: North East West Gloucestershire: 3,600 West Somerset: 4,300 Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for of 18 September 2012, Official Report, column 642W, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what funds have on Regional Growth Fund: North East, how many been provided by (a) his Department, (b) its agencies bidders to the Regional Growth Fund in the North and (c) its non-departmental public bodies for the East have had their funding withdrawn due to a failure vaccination of badgers in (i) Gloucestershire and (ii) to agree terms; and what estimate he has made of the Somerset. [122760] value of such withdrawn funding. [122790] Mr Heath: DEFRA is funding the Badger Vaccine Michael Fallon: Pursuant to the answer of 18 September Development Project (BVDP) to assess the practicability 2012, Official Report, column 642W,on Regional Growth and learn lessons from using badger vaccine, and to Fund: North East, one bidder who had a conditional build confidence in the principles of vaccination. RGF allocation of £0.2 million as part of a package has Vaccination has been taking place near Stroud in withdrawn from the process as their project was unlikely Gloucestershire since 5 July 2010. To date DEFRA has to proceed. paid the Food and Environment Research Agency £927,000. 297W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 298W

DEFRA has created a Vaccination Fund to support Animal Welfare Act 2006 and the Welfare of Farmed vaccination of badgers in the badger control areas of Animals (England) Regulations 2007. DEFRA also has Gloucestershire and Somerset. The fund also provides a duck welfare code which keepers are required by law grants to support staff and volunteers from voluntary to have access to and be familiar with, which encourages and community sector organisations wishing to train as high standards of husbandry. lay badger vaccinators. DEFRA completed a three-year research project in 2007 to assess whether farmed ducks needed bathing Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for water and if so, how it should be provided. The findings Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate he of this research were built on, with the RSPCA, academics has made of the number of badgers that have been and the duck industry, to look at how water could be vaccinated within a two kilometre area in each of the provided to ducks in a commercial setting, while being two pilot cull areas. [122761] mindful of the risk to biosecurity. DEFRA took an active part in the accompanying RSPCA ’Higher Duck Mr Heath: While DEFRA has not made an estimate Welfare Programme’ steering group. As a result of this of the number of badgers that have been vaccinated collaborative approach, duck welfare standards have either on unculled land within each of the two pilot cull been raised as both the RSPCA’s Freedom Foods scheme areas or within the adjacent two kilometre ring, vaccination and the industry’s own Duck Assurance Scheme have is one of many methods of minimising the effect of ensured that their standards reflect the latest research. perturbation. DEFRA welcomes the availability of duck meat products As part of its evidence-based approach, DEFRA has reared to a range of standards which meet the law and adopted averages achieved in the RBCT for land coverage allows consumers to make their own choice in purchasing. area, the proportion of animals to be removed as minimum criteria and culls must be carried out annually for a Floods: Insurance minimum of four years. This is to ensure that the culls are conducted in a co-ordinated, sustained and simultaneous Guto Bebb: To ask the Secretary of State for manner and to minimise the effects of perturbation. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent Further to this there are minimum biosecurity requirements discussions he has had with the insurance industry and and applicants must make use of barriers and buffers, other stakeholders on the availability of affordable flood such as motorways, rivers and coastlines, in addition to insurance; and if he will make a statement. [122374] vaccination, where practical at the boundary of the culling areas. Richard Benyon: The availability and affordability of insurance in flood risk areas is an important issue for Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for this Government. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate he The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and has made of the total land area in (a) Gloucestershire Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for and (b) Somerset where vaccination of badgers has North Shropshire (Mr Paterson), has recently met with taken place. [122762] the Association of British Insurers as part of intense but constructive negotiations with the insurance industry Mr Heath: While DEFRA has not made an estimate on what replaces the Statement of Principles agreement. of the of the total land area in the two counties on which vaccination of badgers has taken place. We do A number of options are under consideration and we know, however, from our own Badger Vaccine Deployment are working hard with the industry to ensure that Project, that vaccination has taken place on badgers insurance against flooding remains widely available and within an area of at least 110km2 in Gloucestershire. affordable. Further announcements will be made in due course. As part of its evidence-based approach, DEFRA has adopted averages achieved in the RBCT for land coverage Food Poverty area and, the proportion of animals to be removed as minimum criteria, and culls must be carried out annually Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for for a minimum of four years. This is to ensure that the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether he has culls are conducted in a co-ordinated, sustained and made an estimate of the level of food poverty in the simultaneous manner and to minimise the effects of UK. [122923] perturbation. Further to this there are minimum biosecurity requirements and applicants must make use of barriers Mr Heath: There is no official estimate of the level of and buffers, such as motorways, rivers and coastlines, in food poverty in the UK. DEFRA actively monitors addition to vaccination, where practical at the boundary retail food prices and the drivers behind changes in of the culling areas. commodity prices. Research shows that the key drivers Ducks: Animal Welfare behind changes in food prices are global agricultural commodity prices, exchange rates, and fluctuating oil prices. Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will take We know that some households are seeing the amount steps to ensure ducks are reared under RSPCA they spend on food increase, and there is evidence some standards. [122039] low income households are trading down on certain products. Mr Heath: The Government is committed to improved It is not Government’s role to set retail food prices. standards of welfare of all livestock. The welfare of Government provides safety nets through welfare to ducks is provided for in the general provisions of the support those on low incomes and out of work. The 299W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 300W

Government also provides a number of schemes to help Food and Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the the most vulnerable in society afford and have access to Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson), recently nutritious food, such as the Healthy Start scheme. confirmed our intention to introduce a ban on ash We work internationally to promote transparency, imports and movements, if this was supported by the open global markets and a competitive domestic market outcome of the current consultation on the pest risk to help producers and retailers offer the best prices to assessment for this disease and the results of the surveillance consumers. being carried out. The consultation will close on 26 October. A ban could then come into force before the Peat main planting season gets underway in November. In the meantime, we will continue to act on a precautionary Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for basis against any further findings. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent discussions he has had on the phasing out of peat in compost and other growing media; what recent assessment he has made of the value of conserving peat COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT bogs to (a) carbon storage, (b) biodiversity and (c) water quality and surface water management; and if he Bed and Breakfast Accommodation: Children will make a statement. [122419] Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for Richard Benyon: With respect to the use of peat in Communities and Local Government how many homeless growing media, I discussed the emerging findings of the children aged 16 years old and under were accommodated Sustainable Growing Media Task Force with its chairman, in bed and breakfast accommodation provided by local Dr Alan Knight OBE, in May prior to the publication authorities for more than six weeks in each of the last of the task force’s report in July. My officials are seven years; and if he will make a statement. [122750] involved in ongoing discussions with both task force members and other interested parties, and the Government will produce its response to the report by the end of this Mr Prisk: The information requested is not available. year. Local authorities provide the Department with figures for the total number of dependent children within Government recognises the important role that households in bed and breakfast accommodation as at functioning peat bogs can play in delivering a range of the end of each quarter, but separate figures are not ecosystem services including climate regulation and water collected for the number of children in those households storage and purification. The most recent national that have been in such accommodation for more than assessment of the value of peat bogs was part of the six weeks. Natural Ecosystem Assessment. It identified gaps in the evidence base to assess the impact of peatland management It is unacceptable and avoidable for families to be on carbon storage and DEFRA has research in place to placed in bed and breakfast. Legislation remains in address these gaps. A particular gap is the evidence on place that prohibits the use of bed and breakfast for lowland peatlands (from where peat is extracted for families unless in an emergency, and then for no more horticultural use) and DEFRA is funding a £1.75 million than six weeks. The law is also clear that local authorities research project to address this. must be satisfied that any accommodation they secure is suitable for the applicant and their household. Trees: Diseases The Department has offered support and assistance to authorities with the most families with children in Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for bed and breakfast accommodation for more than six Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent weeks to help them reduce those numbers. assessment he has made of the potential threat to UK ash trees of fungus from continental Europe; [122769] Buildings: Standards

Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps his Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for Department is taking to reduce the spread of Chalara Communities and Local Government what the membership will be of the group reviewing building standards; and if fraxinea. [122807] he will make a statement. [122775] Mr Heath: The Government are taking the threat posed by Chalara fraxinea extremely seriously. Mr Prisk: The Local Housing Standards Review Group will comprise standards owners and members of Officials from the Forestry Commission and the Food key partner organisations. Details of the organisations and Environment Research Agency are working together are expected to be announced shortly. to protect the UK’s ash trees in response to the UK findings of ash dieback caused by Chalara fraxinea. Cambridge The Plant Health Authorities are following up findings. Trees found to be infected are destroyed and those in the vicinity of infected sites are also being monitored by Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for the Plant Health Authority to check for the presence of Communities and Local Government how many new the disease. Inspections of nurseries growing and trading households there were in Cambridge in each of the last ash plants as well as monitoring of the wider environment 11 years; and what the change in the population of is taking place. The Secretary of State for Environment, Cambridge was in each of the last 11 years. [122753] 301W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 302W

Mr Prisk: The Department for Communities and Household projections Local Government publishes household estimates and (thousand) projections for local authority districts. The latest projections are 2008-based and include the following figures for 2010 45 Cambridge: 2011 46 2012 46 Number of households 2013 47 (thousand) 2014 47 2001 43 2015 48 2002 42 2016 48 2003 41 2017 49 2004 41 2018 49 2005 42 2019 49 2006 43 2020 50 2007 43 2021 50 2008 45 2022 51 2009 45 2023 51 2010 45 2024 52 2011 46 2025 52 Source: 2026 53 Department for Communities and Local Government 2027 53 The Office for National Statistics official population 2028 54 estimates for Cambridge are 2029 54 shown in the following table for the last 11 years: 2030 55 2031 55 Mid year Total population 2032 56 2033 56 2001 109,941 Source: 1 2002 107,905 Department for Communities and Local Government 20031 107,982 The Office for National Statistics (ONS) ’Interim 20041 107,317 2011-based sub-national population projections’ are the 20051 110,749 most recent population projections at local authority 20061 112,873 district level. They are published at: 1 2007 115,731 http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/publications/re-reference- 2008 118,736 tables.html?edition=tcm%3A77-274527 2009 121,138 2010 125,717 Children: Disadvantaged 20112 122,725 1 Revised due to improved migration estimates. Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for 2 Official mid-2011 estimate based on results of the 2011 census and Communities and Local Government how many families not consistent with estimates for earlier years. were assisted by family intervention projects in each of Source: Office for National Statistics the last five years; and what the different categories for families who have been assisted are. [122631] Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what assessment Brandon Lewis: The Government has previously he has made of the economic performance of Cambridge published statistics on families supported by Family in the last 10 years. [122754] Intervention Projects. The last published figures show that Family Intervention Projects had worked with just Mr Prisk: The Department does not produce specific under 9,000 families between February 2007 and March economic assessments of Cambridge or the surrounding 2011. New figures up to March 2012 will be available area. shortly. The statistics have not shown different categories Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for of families, but have included information on outcomes Communities and Local Government what estimate he in four separate domains: family functioning and risk; has made of (a) the likely change in the number of crime and antisocial behaviour; health; education and dwellings in Cambridge between 2011 and 2021 and (b) employment. the likely change in population between 2011 and 2021. The figures may underestimate the number of families [122755] helped as some projects stopped supplying information to the national system when it ceased to be a condition Mr Prisk: There are no official projections of dwellings of grant. numbers. The Department for Communities and Local Domestic Waste: Waste Disposal Government publishes household projections that show household numbers based on population projections Mr Betts: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and demographic trends, that are used by local authorities and Local Government which local authorities have in assessing future housing trends. They show the following received funding to enable them to change from alternate projected total households for Cambridge: weekly to weekly refuse collection in 2012-13; and which 303W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 304W local authorities have received additional funding to Mr Prisk: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I enable them to maintain weekly collection rather than gave today, to the right hon. Member for Leeds Central changing to alternate weekly collections to date. (Hilary Benn). [122032] Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for Brandon Lewis: My Department is currently assessing Communities and Local Government how many new the final bids that we received requesting funding from homes in each English local authority have planning the Weekly Collection Support Scheme. Ministers will permission. [122771] make a statement in due course. Mr Prisk: The number of new homes which have Electric Cables been granted planning permission by local authority is not available centrally. Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what estimate he Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for has made of the proportion of electrical cabling Communities and Local Government (1) how many new installed that was counterfeit or falsely marked in each homes are stalled due to site viability under section 106 of the last five years. [121601] in each local authority in England; [122772] (2) what the evidential basis is for his estimate of the Mr Prisk: No such estimate has been made. The number of new homes stalled due to site viability under Department for Business Innovation and Skills has section 106. [122774] commissioned the Health and Safety Executive to look into cable standards and counterfeiting but they have Mr Prisk: According to the Glenigan database, there yet to produce a final report. are approximately 75,000 housing units: Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for “currently stalled due to sites being commercially unviable.” Communities and Local Government what discussions Section 106 agreements are locally negotiated and he has had with UK electrical cabling manufacturers circumstances will vary greatly from site to site. Information on preventing the importation and installation of on the impact of local, Section 106 requirements on counterfeit or falsely-marked electrical cabling. [122654] individual site viability is therefore not centrally held. However, we expect our measures to create an incentive Mr Prisk: This Department has had no such discussions. for developers to review schemes and bring forward those which would benefit from revised Section 106 Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for provisions. Communities and Local Government what estimate his Department has made of the proportion of electrical Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for cabling installed in the UK in each of the last five years Communities and Local Government whether it is his which was counterfeit or falsely marked. [122868] policy to include planning applications for housing above a certain size in the definition of major infrastructure Mr Prisk: No such estimate has been made. The projects under the Planning Act 2008. [122773] Department for Business Innovation and Skills has commissioned the Health and Safety Executive to look Nick Boles: No. into cable standards and counterfeiting but they have yet to produce a final report. Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government pursuant to First Time Buyers the answer of 17 September 2012, Official Report, column 484W, on housing: construction, if he will make it his policy that Part M of the Building Regulations applies Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for to extensions made to domestic buildings; and if he will Communities and Local Government how many make a statement. [122795] first-time house buyers there were in (a) Birmingham, (b) the West Midlands and (c) England in each of the last three years. [122751] Mr Prisk: The Government have no plans at present to change the limits of application of Part M of the Mr Prisk: The Department for Communities and Building Regulations. Local Government does not collect the information requested. The Council of Mortgage Lenders has Local Government information on mortgages to first time buyers. Mr Betts: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities Housing: Construction and Local Government which local authorities have signed a formal duty to co-operate as defined in the Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Localism Act 2012. [122033] Communities and Local Government what evidence his Department has on the number of properties with Nick Boles: Section 110 of the Localism Act 2011 planning consent which are not being built due to introduced a duty to cooperate to support a locally-led unviability resulting from the scale of section 106 approach to strategic planning. The duty requires local obligations. [122349] authorities and other public bodies to work together 305W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 306W constructively, actively and on an ongoing basis on Local authorities have powers, under the Housing strategic cross-boundary matters when preparing local Act 2004, to assess the risks and hazards in all residential and marine plans. properties using the Housing Health and Safety Rating The duty to cooperate is not a formal document to be System. If a property is found to contain serious (category signed and in the spirit of localism, the Act does not 1) hazards, the local authority has a duty to take the prescribe how the duty should be met. The Act requires most appropriate action. This could range from trying authorities to demonstrate to an independent inspector to deal with the problems informally at first to prohibiting how they have complied with the duty at the plan’s the use of the whole or part of the dwelling. The examination in public. Authorities must also report on Government continues to urge local authorities to make their performance against the duty to cooperate in their full use of their powers. monitoring reports. Social Services: Older People Non-domestic Rates Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what estimate he Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for has made of the proportion of council budgets which Communities and Local Government what assessment will need to be spent on adult social care in each of the he has made of the likely growth in income from next 10 years; and what assumptions he has made of National Non-Domestic Rates in the next 10 years; (a) the growth in numbers of elderly people and (b) what assumptions about (a) increases in Retail Prices increases in the cost of social care in reaching that Index and (b) economic growth he used in making such estimate. [122639] an assessment; and if he will place copies of all documents relating to it in the Library. [122638] Brandon Lewis: The Office for National Statistics is responsible for population projections. On 28 September Brandon Lewis: The Office for Budget Responsibility they published projections of the population for the forecast for Great Britain business rates up to 2016-17 is next 10 years which included the projected number of shown in Table 4.7 of their March 2012 “Economic and elderly people. fiscal outlook”. This incorporates DCLG’s forecast of The ’Technical Consultation on Business Rates National Non-Domestic Rates growth in England. They Retention’, which closed on 24 September, sets out produce forecasts of economic growth and RPI, which Government’s proposals on local authority financing. were used in the business rates forecast and are published More broadly, social care reform is being considered as in Table 4.3 of the their “Outlook”. part of the Government’s response to the Dilnot These estimates do not take into account the potential Commission. The Department of Health published a benefits from the local retention of business rates being progress report on funding reform in July 2012 (Cm introduced through the Local Government Finance 8381), a copy of which is in the Library of the House. Bill. Separate analysis of the benefits to economic growth from these reforms can be found online at: www.communities.gov.uk/publications/localgovernment/ HEALTH businessrateseconomic Bovine Tuberculosis Planning Inspectorate: Staff Dan Rogerson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many people contracted bovine tuberculosis Communities and Local Government whether he proposes (a) through contact with cattle and (b) by ingesting any increase in staffing of the Planning Inspectorate to products produced by infected cattle and what the manage the increased workload resulting from planning biological mechanisms were for contracting the disease. policy changes announced in September 2012. [122348] [123051]

Nick Boles: My officials are working closely with the Anna Soubry: Between 2007 and 2011, 97 cases of Planning Inspectorate to review its resource and staffing “Mycobacterium bovis” were reported in England and requirements in the light of the policy announcements Wales, as shown in the following table. made in September. Number of “Mycobacterium bovis” cases reported to Health Protection Agency national surveillance, England and Wales, 2007-11 Private Rented Housing: Electrical Safety Number of cases

2007 20 Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what steps he is 2008 16 taking to ensure that landlords in the private rental 2009 16 sector comply with electrical safety standards; and if he 2010 23 will ensure that appropriate action is taken against 2011 22 those who fail to do so. [122907] Total 97 Source: Mr Prisk: Private landlords are responsible for ensuring Health Protection Agency that their properties are safe. The Landlord and Tenant Of the cases reported, 38 had contact with cattle recorded. Act 1985 requires that electrical installations are safe From the 97 cases reported; 42 reported consumption when a tenancy begins, and are maintained in a safe of raw (or directly from farm) dairy products in their condition throughout the tenancy. lifetime. Of these, only two reported consumption since 307W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 308W

1995. The Health Protection Agency does not collect Hunter Syndrome data on whether or not the dairy products consumed were from infected cattle. Mr Brady: To ask the Secretary of State for Health The two most likely mechanisms of transmission to what steps his Department plans to take to ensure the humans are (a) by ingestion of the organism in continued availability of enzyme replacement therapy contaminated dairy products or (b) by inhalation of for children with Hunter syndrome following the winding-up the organism expelled from the lungs of an infected of the Advisory Group for National Specialised Services. cow. [123136]

Anna Soubry: We are currently consulting with the Care Homes NHS Commissioning Board on the list of services which will be directly commissioned by the Board from Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for 1 April 2013. Included within that list are services for Health what estimate he has made of the number of people with Lysosomal Storage Disorders such as Hunter’s care homes in each region which do not meet national Syndrome. These commissioning arrangements are not minimum standards of care. [122749] dependent on the existence of the independent stakeholder Advisory Group for National Specialised Services which currently advises Ministers on the specialised services to Norman Lamb: We are informed by the Care Quality be commissioned on a national basis. Commission (CQC) that, under the Health and Social Care Act 2008, providers of adult social care services— including residential and nursing care homes—were In Vitro Fertilisation required to register with the Care Quality Commission by 1 October 2010. Regulations in the Health and Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for Social Care Act 2008 set out essential standards of Health (1) what his policy is on whether the refusal of a quality and safety that people who use health and social Clinical Commissioning Group to fund three full cycles care services have a right to expect. The CQC monitors of IVF to eligible couples constitutes a failure to and inspects providers against these standards, carrying discharge its duties; [123035] out inspections regularly and at any time in response to (2) whether he proposes that those Clinical concerns. Commissioning Groups who do not provide three full The table shows information provided by the CQC cycles of IVF to eligible couples should publically state on the numbers of care homes registered by the CQC in the reasoning behind their commissioning decision; each region and, numbers which were judged not to be [123045] compliant with one or more of the essential standards (3) in what circumstances he proposes that a Clinical as at 1 August 2012. Commissioning Group would be classed as having failed to discharge its duties in relation to the provision Number of registered of infertility treatment. [123046] care homes per region Number of care currently judged to be homes registered non compliant against Anna Soubry: From April 2013, infertility treatment with the CQC, as one or more outcome, as services will be commissioned by Clinical Commissioning Region at 8 August 2012 at 1 August 2012 Groups (CCGs) with the NHS Commissioning Board East Midlands 1,623 428 providing oversight and support. The current National East of England 1,873 371 Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence fertility London 1,779 368 guidance is not mandatory for NHS commissioners but North East 920 160 the Government has consistently encouraged commissioners North West 2,145 397 to take full account of this guidance, in particular the South East 3,385 536 recommendation to offer three full cycles of in vitro fertilisation to qualifying couples. South West 2,430 486 West Midlands 1,876 470 The NHS Commissioning Board will have general Yorkshire and the 1,662 190 intervention powers in relation to CCGs, should it be Humber satisfied that a CCG is failing or has failed to discharge Totals 17,693 3,406 any of its functions, or there is a significant risk that it will fail to do so. These include directing the CCG to The CQC’s most recent Market Report, published in discharge a function in a particular way and within a June 2012, is available on its website at: specified period. The Board will also have powers to require documents and information, and to require www.cqc.org.uk/public/our-market-report from a CCG explanation of how it is proposing to It shows the proportion of adult social care services exercise any of its functions. Legislation requires the inspected that were meeting the standards. The results Board to publish guidance setting out how it proposes of CQC’s inspections showed that: to exercise its intervention powers, so as to ensure that 72% of services inspected were meeting all the standards. the arrangements are clear and transparent. 27% were not meeting at least one standard. In these cases, the Under the NHS Constitution, patients have the following CQC was satisfied with an action plan from the provider setting right: out how it was going to improve. “You have the right to expect local decisions on funding of In 1% of cases, the CQC’s concerns were serious enough to other drugs and treatments to be made rationally following a cause it to take enforcement action. proper consideration of the evidence. If the local NHS decides 309W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 310W not to fund a drug or treatment you and your doctor feel would DEFENCE be right for you, they will explain that decision to you”.

Pseudoxanthoma Elasticum Afghanistan

Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what support and treatment his Department Defence what steps he is taking to improve public provides for sufferers of pseudoxanthoma elasticum. understanding of the work of the armed forces in [122038] Afghanistan. [121796]

Anna Soubry: Pseudoxanthoma elasticum is a fairly Mr Robathan: Public understanding of the contribution rare genetic disorder. Professional guidance on the diagnosis of the armed forces to the overall NATO/ISAF mission and treatment of pseudoxanthoma elasticum is available in Afghanistan and the pursuit of Her Majesty’s from the following website: Government’s foreign and security policy objectives is advanced through a variety of methods. We invite www.patient.co.uk journalists, commentators and documentary makers to a source familiar to general practitioners and other join members of the armed forces in theatre so that they clinicians. It is for local commissioners to determine can experience their achievements in Afghanistan first their priorities for commissioning local services for hand and gain a better understanding of the circumstances people with this condition, in the light of the available under which our troops are operating. We organise evidence and local needs and resources. regular ministerial and other VIP visits with accompanying media coverage. In addition, we often arrange briefings Psychiatry for the media, both in Afghanistan and the UK, on operational developments. News articles and updates Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health for the media and general public are posted daily on the how many (a) medical and (b) non-medical staff there Ministry of Defence and armed forces’ websites, Facebook were in the psychiatry group of specialties in the NHS and Twitter pages. in England, by primary care trust, on 31 July in each year since 2005; and if he will make a statement. Aircraft Carriers [122781]

Dr Poulter: Details of the numbers of medical and Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for non-medical staff in the psychiatry group of specialties Defence for how many months of the year the Queen employed by the national health service in England, Elizabeth class carrier will be operational. [122776] shown by trust for each year since 2005 have been placed in the Library. Mr Dunne: The decision to revert to a Short Take Off Vertical Landing design carrier, announced by the Secretary Monthly workforce data were not made available of State for Defence, my right hon. Friend the Member until September 2009, therefore for comparability over for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr Hammond), on the whole period the data have been provided as at 10 May 2012, Official Report, columns 140-42, will give 30 September, taken from the annual workforce census. us the ability to use both Queen Elizabeth class carriers As the vast majority of these staff work within NHS to provide continuous carrier availability at sea. A final trusts rather than primary care trusts (PCTs) and it is decision on the use of the second carrier will be taken as not possible to link a trust geographically to a PCT and part of the Strategic Defence and Security Review in assign its staff in this way, the data have been provided 2015. by strategic health authority area for all organisations (including PCTs) who employed these staff. Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many sorties can be flown from a Queen Elizabeth Thalidomide class carrier in 24 hours. [122777]

Dan Rogerson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Dunne: The Queen Elizabeth (QE) class aircraft Health (1) if he will make it his policy to provide carrier will have the capacity to deploy up to 36 Lightning financial assistance on a permanent basis to people II aircraft and four helicopters. Alternatively, it can also living with the effects of thalidomide; and if he will carry a mix of helicopters, the precise mix of aircraft make a statement; [123049] being dependent on the mission, enabling the QE class (2) when he expects to make an announcement on to support a broad range of operations. I am withholding the future of the pilot Thalidomide Health Grant. the information on how many sorties can be flown in 24 [123050] hours, as its disclosure would, or would be likely to, prejudice the capability, effectiveness or security of the Norman Lamb: My right hon. Friend the Member for armed forces. Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow), the former Minister of State, met with the hon. Member for Elmet and Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke), chair of the All Party Defence what the additional cost of running a second Parliamentary Group, along with members of the Queen Elizabeth class carrier would be. [122778] Thalidomide Trust and the National Advisory Council, in June. At that meeting, he committed to providing a Mr Dunne: The in-service support solution for the decision on future funding in the autumn of this year. I Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers is still in development, have since repeated that commitment. with a decision expected around the middle of this 311W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 312W decade. The final decision on the use of the second Olympic Games 2012: Security carrier is expected as part of the strategic defence and security review in 2015. Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) how much compensation has been paid to Armed Forces: Officers members of the armed forces for cancelled holidays and other costs incurred as a consequence of their Mr Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for being deployed to provide security at the London 2012 Defence pursuant to the answer of 17 September 2012, Olympics and Paralympics; what estimate he has made Official Report, on infantry officers, what calculations of the total figure allowing for outstanding claims; his Department made in reaching the decision that the what the (a) largest and (b) lowest such payment was; information could only be provided at disproportionate and if he will make a statement; [122058] cost. [121834] (2) how many members of the armed forces have received compensation payments for cancelled holidays Mr Robathan [holding answer 15 October 2012]: I and other costs incurred as a consequence of their refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave on 17 September being deployed to provide security at the London 2012 2012, Official Report, column 454W. The Ministry of Olympics and Paralympics; how many such claims have Defence does not hold centrally information relating to yet to be settled; whether there is a time limit for the numbers of infantry officers who have left the Army making such claims; and if he will make a statement; within two years of commanding their regiments. Complete [122059] information could only be produced by undertaking a (3) what payment to the public purse G4S has made manual comparison of Joint Personnel Administration to cover the costs of deploying members of the armed (JPA) system records since 2007 with separately held forces to provide security at the London 2012 Olympics appointment board records. It was assessed that this and Paralympics; and if he will make a statement. bespoke work would have taken one person in excess of [122060] four days. Mr Robathan: The contract for security during the Astute Class Submarines Olympic Games was between G4S and the London Organising Committee (LOCOG) as event organiser rather than with the Government and commercial Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for negotiations are ongoing. The Ministry of Defence is Defence (1) whether design work has been carried out currently calculating the cost of its involvement and to modify the design of later submarines in the Astute this will be passed to LOCOG for its negotiations with class in order for them to be powered by PWR3 G4S. reactors; [122797] Claims for compensation by service personnel who (2) whether the seventh submarine in the Astute class have been financially disadvantaged by their deployment will use a PWR2 or PWR3 reactor. [122798] can be made through service channels. However, it is too soon to say how many have, or will be compensated Mr Dunne: The seventh Astute class submarine will and how much this figure will come to. There is no time be powered by Pressurised Water Reactor 2 (PWR2). limit imposed on submitting claims. No design work has been carried out to modify Astute The largest claim that the single services can authorise class submarines in order for them to be powered by is for £5,000 and we anticipate that most claims will be Pressurised Water Reactor 3 (PWR3), rather than PWR2. below this figure. There are mechanisms in place through PWR3 is a new design that exploits technology that was direct contact with the Service Personnel and Veterans not available when the Astute design was finalised. Agency to deal with any claim in excess of that figure.

BAE Systems: EADS

Margaret Curran: To ask the Secretary of State for SCOTLAND Defence what assessment he has made of the likely effect of the proposed merger of BAE Systems and Anti-slavery Day EADS on the Scottish defence industry. [122625] Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Dunne: BAE Systems and EADS have decided Scotland what plans he has to mark Anti-Slavery Day not to proceed with the proposed merger. on 18 October 2012. [122627]

Freedom of Information David Mundell: The Scotland Office is fully engaged in the UK Government’s commitment to marking Anti- Slavery Day. I will be visiting Edinburgh airport to Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for discuss with UK Border Force staff and their partner Defence when his Department intends to respond to a organisations, strategies to combat human trafficking freedom of information request (reference 20120606/ and arrangements to deal with victims. My ministerial FOI-MSU4.7.6_U) submitted in April. [117946] colleague, the Lord Wallace of Tankerness QC, Advocate- General for Scotland, is representing the UK Government Mr Robathan: I replied to the hon. Member on 1 May at the Scottish Government’s summit on human trafficking 2012 and substantively on 16 July 2012. in Edinburgh. 313W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 314W

Cabinet Growth Implementation Committee Cost (£)

Margaret Curran: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011-12 0 Scotland pursuant to the answer of 11 September 2012, Official Report, column 124W, whether the membership Chris Kelly: To ask the Secretary of State for of the Cabinet Growth Implementation Committee has Scotland what external policy research his Department been confirmed. [123036] has commissioned in each of the last six years; from which organisation each such piece of research was Michael Moore: The membership of the Cabinet commissioned; and what the cost of each such piece of Growth Implementation Committee has not yet been research was. [123187] confirmed. Defence: Employment David Mundell: The items of policy research and costs that the Scotland Office has commissioned in the last six years are as follows: Margaret Curran: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland (1) what assessment he has made of the potential £ effect of the proposed merger of BAE Systems and EADS on employment in the Scottish defence sector; 2008-09 Quadrant Consultants—research into 24,250 [122302] voters’ perceptions following the 2007 Scottish Parliament elections (2) what recent discussions he has had with his 2009-10 University of Glasgow—research 7,000 ministerial colleagues on the proposed merger of BAE support to the Glasgow Task Force Systems and EADS. [122303] on generational poverty and benefit reliance Michael Moore: On 10 October, BAE Systems and EADS decided not to proceed with the proposed merger. Sovereignty The two companies will remain as successful independent companies, each with a significant presence in the UK and Scotland. The Government has always been clear Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for that it could see the commercial logic of this deal but Scotland what discussions he has had with electoral that it would only ever work if it met the interests of all registration officers in Scotland and the Scottish Electoral the parties involved. For the UK this meant protecting Management Board on the proposed extension of the our national security, investment and jobs, including franchise to 16 and 17 year olds in relation to the those jobs based in Scotland. referendum on independence. [123135] Ministers and officials meet regularly to discuss a David Mundell: There have been no discussions between wide range of topics. UK Government Ministers and the electoral registration Electoral Register officers in Scotland and the Scottish Electoral Management Board on the proposals to enable 16 and 17-year-olds to vote in the referendum. It will be for the Scottish Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for Government to propose whether to enable 16 and 17-year- Scotland whether the annual canvass of voters due to olds to vote in the referendum and if they choose to do take place in Scotland in Autumn 2013 will request so, to propose any mechanism for registering 16 and information on 14 and 15 year olds resident in households. 17-year-olds. It will be for the Scottish Parliament to [123134] consider and approve any proposals made by the Scottish Government. David Mundell: The annual canvass of voters will not request information on 14 and 15-year-olds. Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for Research Scotland what discussions he has had with the Scottish Government on the mechanisms that will be put in place for voter registration of 16 and 17 year olds prior Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland to Autumn 2014 for the forthcoming referendum on how much his Department spent on research and independence. [123137] development in (a) 2008-09, (b) 2009-10, (c) 2010-11 and (d) 2011-12; and how much he plans to spend in (i) David Mundell: It will be for the Scottish Government 2012-13, (ii) 2013-14 and (iii) 2014-15. [121884] to propose whether to enable 16 and 17-year-olds to vote in the referendum and if they choose to do so, to David Mundell: The Scotland Office expenditure on propose any mechanism for registering 16 and 17-year-olds. research and development in (a) 2008-09, (b) 2009-10, It will be for the Scottish Parliament to consider and (c) 2010-11 and (d) 2011-12 is shown in the following approve any proposals made by the Scottish Government. table. There are no plans to incur such costs in (i) 2012-13, (ii) 2013-14 and (iii) 2014-15. Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he has had discussions with Ministerial Cost (£) colleagues on whether extending the franchise to 16 and 2008-09 43,225 17 year olds in the forthcoming referendum on 2009-10 7,000 independence in Scotland will require legislative proposals 2010-11 0 to be introduced into the Electoral Registration and Administration Bill. [123138] 315W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 316W

David Mundell: There have been no discussions about Mike Penning: Comparable figures for the Department introducing legislative proposals into the Electoral as it is now configured are not available following the Registration and Administration Bill to enable 16 and completion of devolution of policing and justice functions 17-year-olds to vote in the independence referendum. It on 12 April 2010. will be for the Scottish Government to propose whether Since 12 April 2010, the Northern Ireland Office has to enable 16 and 17-year-olds to vote in the referendum spent nothing on research and development. The and if they choose to do so, to propose any mechanism Department does not plan to spend anything on research for registering 16 and 17-year-olds. It will be for the and development in years (i) 2012-13, (ii) 2013-14 or Scottish Parliament to consider and approve any proposals (iii) 2014-15. made by the Scottish Government. Welfare Reform Act 2012 Training Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Ireland what recent discussions she has had with the Scotland what media or public speaking training Ministers (a) Chancellor of the Exchequer and (b) Secretary of in his Department have received since May 2010. State for Work and Pensions on introducing flexibilities [122068] for (i) benefit payment intervals, (ii) arrangements for David Mundell: None. housing benefit paid directly to landlords and (iii) those with mental health conditions in relation to the implementation of the Welfare Reform Act 2012 in Northern Ireland. [123054] NORTHERN IRELAND Assisted Areas Mike Penning: Welfare reform will bring many benefits including a simpler benefits system that always rewards work and protects the most vulnerable as well as being Dr Alasdair McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State fairer to both the claimant and the taxpayer. The Secretary for Northern Ireland what recent assessment she has of State for Northern Ireland, my right hon. Friend the made of the benefits of assisted area status for Member for Chipping Barnet (Mrs Villiers), spoke most Northern Ireland. [123141] recently about these and other matters to the Minister for Welfare Reform, my noble Friend, Lord Freud, on Mrs Villiers: I have corresponded with the Northern 15 October. Ireland Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Investment on assisted area status, and I am due to meet her later this week when we shall discuss it. Economic development is a devolved matter and the new regional area guidelines TREASURY for the assisted area status are a matter for the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, my right Bank Services hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable). The Government have stated that when consulting on Annette Brooke: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer the new assisted area map, we will need to take account pursuant to the answer of 6 September 2012, Official of factors particular to Northern Ireland and will work Report, column 372, on SMEs, when he expects the with the European Commission, along with other member Financial Services Authority to publish its recommendations states, to ensure that the new RAG allows appropriate on the requirements for a banking licence. [121956] flexibility. HMS Caroline Greg Clark: The Government published a white paper on Banking Reform in June 2012. That paper announced that the Financial Services Authority (FSA) and the Stephen Pound: To ask the Secretary of State for Bank of England are conducting reviews of the prudential Northern Ireland what the current status is of HMS and conduct requirements for new entrants to the banking Caroline. [121685] sector. The reviews will reassess the prudential requirements of the new Prudential Regulation Authority (PRA) and Mike Penning: I welcome the announcement made on the conduct requirements of the new Financial Conduct 11 October that HMS Caroline is to remain in Belfast. Authority (FCA) to ensure that they are proportionate Further details are set out in the press statement made and do not pose excessive barriers to entry or expansion by the Northern Ireland Minister for Enterprise, Trade for new entrants and prospective new entrants to the and Investment at: banking market. http://www.northernireland.gov.uk/index/media-centre/news- departments/news-deti/news-deti-111012-hms-caroline- The conclusions of the reviews are due to be published to.htm. in the autumn. Where possible, the FSA and the Bank of England have committed to introduce these changes Research in advance of the new regulatory structure.

Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for British Business Bank Northern Ireland how much her Department spent on research and development in (a) 2008-09, (b) 2009-10, Mr Bain: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) (c) 2010-11 and (d) 2011-12; and how much she plans whether the proposed British Business Bank will be to spend in (i) 2012-13, (ii) 2013-14 and (iii) 2014-15. able to borrow its own financial resources and direct [121888] these to small and medium-sized businesses; [121538] 317W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 318W

(2) what level of (a) public and (b) private funding tax treatment of CIC directors relative to directors of or capital will be provided to the proposed British limited companies in respect of their inability to pay Business Bank in each of the next three financial years; dividends. [123048] [121539] (3) whether the proposed British Business Bank will Mr Gauke: The Government has no plans to change be permitted to lend directly to businesses. [121540] the tax treatment of directors of community interest companies; such individuals are subject to the same tax Greg Clark: The Government intends to allocate up and National Insurance rules as directors of other to £1 billion of public capital to the business bank. The limited companies. bank will work through intermediaries and leverage additional private sector capital to help stimulate and A community interest company limited by shares diversify the markets for long-term capital for growing may pay dividends to shareholders, including private businesses. The Government will set out further details investors e.g. directors. However, the payment of a later this autumn. dividend to a private investor is subject to a dividend cap. The dividend cap does not apply to dividends paid Business: Peterborough to certain asset-locked bodies. This ensures the assets and profits are retained within the community interest Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Chancellor of the company for community purposes, or transferred to Exchequer what assessment he has made on the effect another asset-locked organisation, such as another of the Funding for Lending Scheme on (a) small and community interest company or charity. medium-sized enterprises and (b) mortgages in Further detail can be found in chapter six of the Peterborough constituency; and if he will make a statement. guidance available on the community interest company [121684] regulator’s website: Greg Clark: The Funding for Lending scheme provides http://www.bis.gov.uk/cicregulator/guidance strong incentives to banks to make loans cheaper and more easily available to households and non-financial businesses across the UK. Participating banks have already introduced a number of new and cheaper mortgage and SME loan products linked to the scheme. ATTORNEY-GENERAL Children: Maintenance Human Trafficking Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what steps are taken by HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) to carry out an investigation into Mr Bone: To ask the Attorney-General how many tax and maintenance evasion, where an application for people have been (a) prosecuted for and (b) convicted child maintenance demonstrates that a non-resident of human trafficking or associated offences where the parent has failed to declare their full taxable income to type of exploitation was forced cultivation of cannabis. HMRC. [123047] [122782]

Mr Gauke: The functions of the former Child The Solicitor-General: I am unable to provide data on Maintenance and Enforcement Commission have been the number of defendants prosecuted and convicted for assumed by the Department of Work and Pensions trafficking into forced cannabis cultivation. The Crown (DWP). Section 127(4)(a) of the Welfare Reform Act Prosecution Service (CPS) Case Management System 2012 provides a legal gateway for information sharing cannot disaggregate from figures for offences of human between DWP and HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC), trafficking, the nature of the exploitation. These data including on matters relating to child maintenance. could be obtained only by examining all of the CPS’s HMRC and DWP have introduced an integrated case files for human trafficking, which would incur approach to tackling fraud and error. This strategy was disproportionate cost. published in October 2010 in “Tackling fraud and error in the benefit and tax credits systems”. This includes joint intelligence, investigations and prosecutions. The Mr Bone: To ask the Attorney-General how many document can be found at: prosecutions took place for conspiracy to traffic human beings in each of the last three years; and how http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/tackling-fraud-and-error.pdf many such prosecutions led to convictions. [122783] HMRC considers all information supplied to it on matters relating to suspected error and fraud and deploys a risk based approach to all its compliance interventions, The Solicitor-General: I am unable to provide data on focusing its resources on the highest tax risks and the number of defendants prosecuted and who were targeted interventions to reduce the scope for all forms convicted for conspiracy to traffic human beings. The of evasion regardless of where it occurs. Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) Case Management System cannot disaggregate from figures for all offences Taxation: Community Interest Companies of conspiracy under section 1 of the Criminal Law Act 1977, the specific type of offence which they conspired Mr Ward: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if to commit. These data could be obtained only by examining he will consider reforming the tax treatment of all of the CPS’s case files for conspiracy, which would community interest companies (CICs) to change the incur disproportionate cost. 319W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 320W

INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT We continue to call on the Israeli Government to fulfil its commitment, as confirmed in a letter from the British Ambassador to Israel to the Deputy Israeli Foreign Minister on 23 April, to a Afghanistan process of dialogue with the Bedouin on Israeli plans to move the Khan Al Ahmar community, and ensure that any decision reached Heidi Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for on the future of the Bedouin communities in Area C of the West International Development (1) what plans she has to Bank is made with their lull consent″. make tackling violence against women and girls a priority for the Government in its bilateral aid programme in Sri Lanka Afghanistan; and whether this area of work will be included in her Department’s next Operational Plan for Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for that country; [122756] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what progress has (2) what steps the Government is taking to support been made on the implementation of UN Human Rights the government of Afghanistan to achieve its target of Council Resolution 19/2; and what his objectives are for recruiting 5,000 women into Afghan National Security the 21st Session of the UN Human Rights Council in Forces (ANSF) in terms of (a) funding and (b) tackling relation to human rights and reconciliation in Sri Lanka. the barriers to women’s participation in ANSF such as [121611] sexual harassment; [122757] Alistair Burt: We have urged Sri Lanka to make (3) what steps her Department has taken to ensure progress in implementing the recommendations of the the Afghan National Security Forces can respond Human Rights Council. Sri Lanka’s July 2012 action effectively to women’s security concerns, including plan on implementing the Lessons Learnt and training on the implementation of Afghanistan’s End Reconciliation Commission recommendations fulfils one Violence Against Women law. [122758] of the requests of the Human Rights Council. We look to Sri Lanka to implement the action plan and to Justine Greening: The UK places women at the heart address other elements of the resolution including alleged of its development efforts in Afghanistan as set out in violations of international law. We continue to have the UK National Action Plan on UN Security Council concerns about human rights in Sri Lanka including Resolution 1325. We consider how to improve the lives political violence and intimidation of the media. of Afghan women and girls through all of DFID’s programmes in the country and will continue to do so We look forward to actively contributing to Sri Lanka’s for the next operation plan period. The UK also regularly Universal Periodic Review at the Human Rights Council presses the Afghan Government to implement its national (HRC) in November. In that context, the UK made and human rights obligations, including the Elimination clear in a statement on 17 September to the HRC that of Violence against Women law. With regards to the we continued to monitor developments in Sri Lanka remaining two parliamentary questions (122757 and and looked forward to a highly anticipated visit to the 122758), I refer the hon. Member to the reply given country by the High Commissioner for Human Rights. by the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and The Prime Minister emphasised the need for Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member accountability and reconciliation most recently in a for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), on 21 June short discussion with President Rajapaksa at the 2012, Official Report, column 1093W. Commonwealth Secretary-General’s lunch on 6 June. The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), made the same points when he FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE met the Sri Lankan Minister for External Affairs on 6 June. Israel UN Special Representative on Sexual Violence in Conflict Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he has made to the Government of Israel on calls to Heidi Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for demolish the Jahalin School in Khan Al Ahmar; and if Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs from which budget his recent £1 million pledge to support the Office of the he will make a statement. [122744] UN Secretary-General’s Special Representative on Sexual Alistair Burt: Our ambassador to Israel and the British Violence in Conflict will be drawn. [122911] consul-general to Jerusalem raised the issue of demolitions in Area C with the Co-ordinator of Government Activity Mark Simmonds: The £1 million pledge to support in the Territories earlier this month. They also flagged the Office of the UN Secretary-General’s Special our concerns about the proposed demolition of the Representative on Sexual Violence will be drawn from school with his officials. Conflict Pool Resources, specifically the Strengthening Alliances and Partnerships Programme. As stated in my response of 20 September to the hon. Member’s e-mail of 5 September. World War II: Medals ″Officials from the British Consulate General in Jerusalem attended the Israeli High Court hearing held on 13 September regarding the demolition orders of the Khan Al Ahmar school. I Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for understand that the Israeli court did not pass judgment as the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what plans his judges stated that this was a political case and the decision should Department has to issue medals to those who served in be made by politicians. the (a) Political Warfare Executive and (b) Political 321W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 322W

Intelligence Department in North Africa, Italy, Palestine Higher Education: Admissions and Yugoslavia between 1943 and 1946. [122764] Ms Harman: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Mark Simmonds: There are no plans to issue a new (1) when he plans to reply to the letter from the right medal to those who served in these two Departments. hon. Member for Camberwell and Peckham of 17 July While we support the principle of recognition for those 2012; [121957] who served Britain so well during world war two and (2) when the Government intends to respond to the since, the Committee on the Grant of Honours, Decorations Hughes Report; [122035] and Medals could not single out particular groups so (3) how many discussions he has had with the far after the events took place and where most of the Government’s Advocate for Access to Higher Education records no longer exist. about the recommendations made in the Hughes Report; Where claimants can prove relevant service that qualified and what the subject of each of those discussions was. for existing medals through eligibility and service history, [122036] then late claims can still be made to, and medals issued by, the MOD Historic Branch. Matthew Hancock: The Secretary of State for Education, my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), replied to the right hon. Member’s letter earlier this month. The Government welcomed EDUCATION the report of the Government’s Advocate for Access to Education published on 21 July 2011 and the issues it GCSE raised were considered by the Government at the time and during the passage of the Education Act 2011. The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS), Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for the lead Department on Higher Education, incorporated Education what discussions (a) he and (b) officials in a response to the recommendations in the Hughes Report his Department have had with officials at Ofqual about on Higher Education in its publication “Government the recent decisions by examination boards to change response to ‘Students at the heart of the system’ and ‘A GCSE grade boundaries in respect of (i) the fairness to new regulatory framework for the higher education pupils and (ii) the potential effect on stability in the sector’”, published in June 2012. The Secretary of State secondary education system of those decisions; and if met the Government’s Advocate for Access to Education he will make a statement. [122040] to discuss his work before the report was published. The then Minister of State for Further Education, Skills Elizabeth Truss: Standards and grade boundaries in and Lifelong Learning, my hon. Friend the Member for qualifications are a matter for Ofqual as the independent South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes), who was regulator in England. Ministers and officials are not a Minister in both BIS and the Department for Education, involved in discussions relating to the setting of grade has met the Government’s Advocate for Access to boundaries in advance of the publication of results. Education since the publication of his report. The Chief Regulator wrote to the Secretary of State for Education, my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), on 22 August advising ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE him of the Regulator’s approach to ensuring that GCSE Carbon Emissions grades are correct. Officials of the Department for Education have regular meetings with Ofqual and were, Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy in the run-up to the publication of GCSE results on and Climate Change whether he has discussed including 23 August, informed by Ofqual about the approach to international aviation and shipping emissions in carbon GCSE awarding in 2012. budgets as recommended by the Committee on Climate Ofqual published its initial report into the grading of Change with (a) the Chancellor of the Exchequer and GCSE English in 2012 on 31 August. The report and (b) the Secretary of State for Transport. [122811] Ofqual’s letter of 22 August are available on Ofqual’s website at: Gregory Barker: The Secretary of State for Energy http://www.ofqual.gov.uk/news-and-announcements/130- and Climate Change, the right hon. Member for Kingston news-and-announcements-press-releases/972-ofqual-report- and Surbiton (Mr Davey), has regular discussions with on-gcse-english-results-finds-january-assessments-were- his Cabinet colleagues on a variety of issues, and will graded-generously continue to engage closely with them before any decision is taken on this matter. Department of Energy and GCSE: Brighton Climate Change officials are in regular contact with their opposite numbers in other Government Departments Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for on this issue, as well as with the Committee on Climate Education if he will estimate the number of pupils in Change, ahead of the statutory deadline set out at the Brighton and Hove local authority area who have section 30 of the Climate Change Act (2008). been affected by recent decisions by examination Centre for Sustainable Energy boards to change GCSE grade boundaries; and if he will make a statement. [122030] Chris Heaton-Harris: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change which contracts have Elizabeth Truss: The Department for Education does been assigned by his Department to the Centre for not hold information relating to the marks awarded to Sustainable Energy in the last five years; and what the individual GCSE candidates. value was of each such contract. [122768] 323W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 324W

Gregory Barker: The Department of Energy and Energy Distribution Climate Change has let the following contracts to the Centre for Sustainable Energy in the last five years. The Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for values shown are the total sums spent under each Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made contract. of the annual cost of energy distribution to consumers. [122271] Contract title Value (£)

Planning contract 2008-09 238,434.00 Gregory Barker: The Department has not estimated CSE planning communications programme 96,156.22 the annual cost of energy distribution to consumers but activity for FY 2008-09 Ofgem does publish a document explaining Household CSE planning communications programme 368,625.81 Energy Bills available at: activity for FY 2009-10 http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/Media/FactSheets/Documents1/ Energy Demand Research Project Database 13,150.00 household-bills.pdf Validation and Adaptation In the latest publication, May 2012, electricity distribution National Heat Map 147,909.93 accounted for approximately 18% of the average annual Preparation of Dataset for Energy Demand 4,710.00 household electricity bill (£470) which amounted to Research Project £84.60. Gas distribution accounted for approximately Research carried out on behalf of the Hills 1,000.00 review 19% of the average annual household gas bill (£704) which amounted to £133.76. Work carried out on the Distribution Impacts 42,025.00 Model for Policy Scenario Analysis upgrade Energy: Profits Total 912,010.96 Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Combined Heat and Power Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has made of the level of annual profits reported by energy Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for distribution firms. [122267] Energy and Climate Change what plans he has to encourage refineries to generate their own electricity Gregory Barker: Costs and revenues of the regulated using combined heat and power once levy exemption activities of energy distribution companies are a matter certificates are removed and carbon price support rates for the independent regulator Ofgem. introduced in 2013. [122874] Exhaust Emissions: Shipping Gregory Barker: All but two of the UK’s refineries already operate large CHP schemes, although there is Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy potential to increase their capacity, increasing the quantity and Climate Change what assessment he has made of of electricity they export to the grid. the merits of introducing a carbon price on international Regarding support for fossil fuel fired combined heat shipping; whether such a proposal will be discussed at and power following the withdrawal of Levy Exemption the forthcoming UN climate change conference; and if certificates in April 2013, I refer the Member to the he will make a statement. [122938] answers I gave to the hon. Member for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson) on 15 October 2012, Official Report, column Gregory Barker: The Government recognises the 130W. importance of addressing greenhouse gas emissions from shipping. Our view is that the first best approach In respect of carbon price support rates Budget 2012 would be the application of a global Emissions Trading confirmed that CHP would be exempt from carbon System agreed through the International Maritime price support costs in respect of heat output. This Organisation (IMO). Such a measure would establish a ensures CHP is not disadvantaged relative to other carbon price for the shipping sector, and this would forms of electricity generation from fossil fuels. help to drive improvements in energy efficiency and investment in new low carbon technologies—building Electricity Generation on the IMO agreement in 2011 of an Energy Efficiency Design Index for new ships. The UK will continue to Dan Byles: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy play an active role in the IMO’s ongoing work on and Climate Change what assessment he has made of technical, operational and market based measures to total electricity generation capacity within the UK; and reduce emissions on a global basis. what estimate he has made of such capacity in 2015. With regard to the UN Framework Convention on [123157] Climate Change (UNFCCC) meeting in Doha, we are working with other parties to explore whether it will be Mr Hayes: Projections of electricity generation capacity possible for the UNFCCC to send a clear signal to the within the UK are published in DECC’s Energy and IMO on the need for swift progress towards a global Emission Projections, which was most recently updated agreement in line with our overall goal of limiting on 15 October 2012: global warming to below 2 degrees. www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/about/ec_social_res/ analytic_projs/en_emis_projs/en_emis_projs.aspx Green Deal Scheme Electricity generation capacity projections are provided in Annex J: Total Capacity where on the central scenario John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for capacity is projected to be 98.6 GW in 2012 and Energy and Climate Change with reference to paragraph 98.2 GW in 2015. 149 of the impact assessment for the Green Deal and 325W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 326W energy company obligation, what steps his Department Natural Gas are taking to ensure that all households are able to receive such measures. [122399] Dan Byles: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what recent estimate he has made Gregory Barker: The Government recognises that of the potential size of domestic UK shale gas reserves; households who receive energy efficiency measures will and if he will make a statement. [123150] see their thermal efficiency improve and their risk of fuel poverty reduced. The Government has in place a Mr Hayes: A British Geological Survey study in 2010 number of policies to help households access measures, estimated that if UK shales were similar to those in the including the current CERT and CESP obligations, the USA they could yield some 150 billion cubic metres of Warm Front scheme in England, and the new Green gas, equivalent to roughly two years of UK demand. Deal and energy company obligation (ECO). The BGS has been undertaking more detailed work The ECO will require energy companies to deliver which also takes into account last year’s drilling results assistance worth around £540 million per annum to low of Cuadrilla in Lancashire. BGS expect to be able to income households and those living in low income publish revised estimates of the resource, that is, the areas. amount of gas in the rocks, towards the end of the year. In order to help households find out more about the However, little drilling has taken place and commercial offers that are available to them under schemes such as potential of shale gas has not been quantified , so it is the Green Deal and ECO, the Department has launched not yet possible to make a reliable estimate of recoverable the Energy Saving Advice Service which consumers can reserves, that is, the amount of gas which might be contact on 0300 123 1234. We are also putting in place a economically producible from the resource. system to ensure that, where eligible low income and vulnerable households contact the advice line, they can Dan Byles: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy be referred directly to the energy companies responsible and Climate Change what recent estimate he has made for delivering ECO for support. of the potential size of domestic UK coal bed methane reserves; and if he will make a statement. [123151] Dan Byles: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how many Green Deal (a) Mr Hayes: DECC commissioned a BGS study in providers, (b) assessors and (c) installers have been 2010 which estimated that the UK total coal bed methane approved since the inception of the scheme. [122817] (CBM) resource (or hydrocarbons in place) is large—about 2,900 billion cubic metres, based on identifying coal Gregory Barker: The Green Deal Oversight and resources that are thick enough, with gas content >lm3/ Registration Body reported that by close of play on tonne, away from worked coalmine seams, aquifers and 12 October (a) two Green Deal provider organisations coal mine methane recovery: had completed registration; (b) nine separate Green http://og.decc.gov.uk/media/ Deal assessor organisations were on the register; and viewfile.ashx?filetype=4&filepath=og/ep/onshore/ (c) 166 separate Green Deal installer organisations had Promote_UK_CBM.pdf been registered (184 including regional offices). But the presence of a CBM resource does not imply that the geotechnical conditions required to establish Low Carbon Networks Fund significant gas flow (e.g. permeability in the coal seams) exist nor that the resource can be recovered economically. Estimation of reserves will depend on proving Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for commerciality. There are two pilot CBM fields producing Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has methane gas in the UK, Potteries and Doe Green, made of the benefits of the Low Carbon Networks which have yet to prove commerciality. However, the Fund. [122268] Airth CBM field, in Scotland has seen significant, investment and there are plans for a full-scale development Gregory Barker: The Low Carbon Networks Fund is which are currently under review. encouraging innovation on the electricity distribution networks to assist the UK’s transition to the low carbon Nottinghamshire economy. The Fund is providing backing for a series of leading-edge projects aimed at developing crucial knowledge and expertise which can be shared across the industry— Mr Spencer: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy helping to improve performance while curbing costs. and Climate Change what ministerial visits to (a) the The projects underway are not yet completed but the City of Nottingham and (b) Nottinghamshire have terms of the funding require wide dissemination of the taken place since May 2010. [121760] learning generated including through an annual public event to report on progress made and lessons learnt. Gregory Barker: The former Minister of Energy, my hon. Friend the Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry), Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for visited Nottingham university on 6 March 2012. Energy and Climate Change what the total value of the Low Carbon Networks Fund is. [122270] Nuclear Power

Gregory Barker: The Low Carbon Networks Fund Mark Menzies: To ask the Secretary of State for has made available up to £500 million over the period Energy and Climate Change when he expects an 2010-15. announcement from Horizon Nuclear Power on the 327W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 328W future of its nuclear programme in the UK; and if he The data used for existing tariffs is summarized in will make a statement. [121374] publications on DECC’s website http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/meeting_energy/ Mr Hayes: The sale of Horizon Nuclear Power is a renewable_ener/incentive/documents/documents.aspx commercial process which is being led by the current particularly in the Analytical Annex and the AEA 2010 owners and their sales advisers Nomura. Therefore, it RHI Evidence Base Update. would be inappropriate to comment on the outcome of For tariffs currently being consulted on, all data is the process before the sales process has reached a conclusion. published in full on the relevant consultation pages, where there are accompanying spreadsheets: Renewable Energy: Infrastructure http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/meeting_energy/ Renewable_ener/incentive/incentive.aspx Dan Byles: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy DECC is updating data on costs and performance of and Climate Change (1) what the five most costly Renewable Heat technologies and this dataset will result renewable energy infrastructure projects in the UK are in a published report of DECC’s new assumptions and which are (a) being planned and (b) under be used when the RHI policy, currently being consulted construction; [123152] upon, is finalised. To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (2) what assessment he has made of the five Warm Home Discount Scheme largest investors in UK renewable energy infrastructure projects in terms of financial investment (a) committed John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for to in each of the last five years and (b) planned in each Energy and Climate Change if he will take steps to of the next five years. [123156] provide the Warm Home Discount to the poorest families with children under five years old. [122886] Gregory Barker: The Department does not hold details on the financial value of all renewable investments Gregory Barker: Warm Home Discount Scheme Broader made or planned in the UK, and details of forward Group schemes offered by participating suppliers include investment plans are in many cases commercially sensitive an offer for groups such as low income families and and not made public by investors. those with long-term illnesses and disabilities. All six The Renewable Energy Planning Database, developed participating suppliers (British Gas, EDF, Eon, Npower, by my Department, is based on a monitoring programme Scottish Power and SSE) have eligibility criteria in their that collects information from local planning authorities Broader Schemes targeted at low income families with and renewable energy developers on the status of all children under five. renewable energy projects at each stage of the planning Suppliers provided a total of 234,297 Broader Group process—from intended applications and planning rebates worth £120 each, equating to £28.1 million of submissions through to construction and commissioning. support in 2011-12. We expect at least 364,000 households Details on key planning and environmental issues are to benefit from the Broader Group in 2012-13, receiving also recorded. Details are available at: rebates £130. https://restats.decc.gov.uk/cms/planning-database/ Online interactive maps are available that show the progress of projects through the planning system, and an extract (in spreadsheet form) from the planning CABINET OFFICE database, together with a progress datasheet, is made available each month. Average Earnings: Peterborough The database does not, generally, include details of the cost of projects—however the report ″Review of the Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Minister for the generation costs and deployment potential of renewable Cabinet Office what the average median weekly earnings electricity technologies in the UK”, available to download were before tax for employees (a) aged 50-64, (b) over free of charge on the DECC website at 65 and (c) of all ages in Peterborough constituency in www.decc.gov.uk each year since 2001; and if he will make a statement. [121757] provides indicative costs for various renewable energy technologies. Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Renewable Heat Incentive Scheme asked the authority to reply. Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated September 2012: Sarah Newton: To ask the Secretary of State for As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Energy and Climate Change whether he plans to publish have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question the data used to calculate the different tariffs for the asking what the average median weekly earnings were before tax Renewable Heat Incentive scheme; and if he will make a for employees (a) aged 50-64, (b) over 65 and (c) of all ages in Peterborough constituency in each year since 2001. (121757) statement. [122347] Average levels of earnings are estimated from the Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings (ASHE), and are provided for all Gregory Barker: DECC calculates RHI tariffs using a employees on adult rates of pay whose pay for the survey period range of data on capital costs, operating costs, performance, was not affected by absence. The ASHE, carried out in April each fuel prices, barrier costs and usage estimates for a range year, is the most comprehensive source of earnings information in of sizes, applications and building types. the United Kingdom. 329W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 330W

The following table shows the median gross weekly earnings Letter from Glen Watson, dated October 2012: for all, full-time and part-time jobs for employees aged 50-64 and As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I of all ages in Peterborough constituency for April of each year have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Questions from 2001 until 2011, the latest period for which figures are concerning: available. There are no reliable estimates available for those employees aged 65 and over. 1) how many civil servants of each grade from one to seven there are in each Government Department (121805) Median gross weekly earnings (£)—for all, full-time and part-time 2) how many civil servants of each grade from 1 to 7 working 1 employee jobs , employees aged 50-64 and of all ages for 2001 to 2011 in each Government department were recruited (a) since June Peterborough constituency 2007, (b) since June 2002, (c) since June 1997, (d) since June 1992 50-64 and (e) before June 1992. (121815) Full- Part- Full- Part- Data are collected on the number of Civil Servants on an All time time All time time annual basis. The latest available data is for March 2011. The data for the number of Civil Servants in Grades 6 and 7 by 2001 *302.4 *349.6 **107.1 **304.1 **363.0 x department and how many were recruited (a) since June 2007, (b) 2002 *311.1 *369.4 **96.3 **283.8 **404.8 x since June 2002, (c) since June 1997, (d) since June 1992 and (e) 2003 *347.2 403.0 x **339.1 **455.2 x before June 1992 are in have been included in the tables. 20042 *368.2 424.4 **128.0 **397.8 *466.0 x Data for Grades 1 to 5, Senior Civil Servant Grades, is available 20043 *346.4 *390.4 **124.6 **355.5 *452.7 x on the ONS ACSES database. However, to provide this information 2005 *357.5 401.6 *152.9 **363.3 **434.6 x would incur a disproportionate cost. 20064 385.2 439.8 **138.0 *413.5 *468.2 x The tables will be placed in the library of the house. 5 2006 381.6 438.3 **135.5 *405.4 *468.3 x Employment: Wales 2007 *400.0 *445.6 **147.2 *438.0 *461.1 x 2008 *376.1 447.5 **147.4 *429.4 *460.1 x Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet 2009 400.8 *463.4 **165.0 *413.0 *476.8 x Office what the net change in private sector jobs was in 2010 399.0 486.7 *164.9 *419.4 *500.2 x (a) Wales and (b) Vale of Clwyd constituency from 20116 415.1 467.8 *170.9 *424.5 *484.5 x May 2010 to the latest period for which figures are 20117 412.8 464.7 *165.7 *424.2 *479.9 x available. [121227] 1 Employees on adult rates whose pay for the survey pay-period was not affected by absence. Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the 2 2004 results excluding supplementary survey for comparison with responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have 2003. asked the authority to reply. 3 2004 results including supplementary survey designed to improve coverage of the survey website. For more information see National Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated September 2012: Statistics website at: As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I www.statistics.gov.uk have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking 4 2006 results with methodology consistent with 2005. what the net change in private sector jobs was in (a) Wales and (b) 5 2006 results with methodology consistent with 2007. 6 Vale of Clwyd from May 2010 to the latest period for which 2011 results based on Standard Occupational Classification 2000. figures are available. (121227) 7 2011 results based on Standard Occupational Classification 2010. Guide to Quality: Unfortunately, estimates of private sector jobs are not available. The Coefficient of Variation (CV) indicates the quality of a figure, the As an alternative, we have provided Table 1, which presents net smaller the CV value the higher the quality. The true value is likely to change in private sector employment in Wales from the Labour lie within +/- twice the CV—for example, for an average of 200 with a Force Survey (LFS). This also includes returns from public sector CV of 5%, we would expect the population average to be within the organisations between June 2010 and June 2012, which is the range 180 to 220. latest available period. Estimates for May 2010 are not available Key: as public sector returns are collected quarterly (March, June, CV =5% September and December). *CV>5%and=10% As data from the LFS and returns from public sector organisations ** CV >10% and =20% are only available at regional level. Table 2 provides the net x unreliable changes in private sector employment from the Annual Population CV = Coefficient of Variation Source: Survey (APS) in Wales and Vale of Clwyd constituency, between Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings (ASHE), Office for National the 12 month periods ending in December 2010 and March 2012, Statistics. which is the latest available period. Individuals in the APS are classified to the public or private sector according to their responses to the survey. Civil Servants As with any sample survey, estimates from the LFS and the APS are subject to a margin of uncertainty. A guide to the quality of the APS estimates is given in Table 2. Richard Fuller: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet National and local area estimates for many labour market Office (1) how many civil servants of each grade from statistics, including employment unemployment and claimant 1 to 7 there are in each Government Department; count are available on the NOMIS website at: [121805] http://www.nomisweb.co.uk (2) how many civil servants of each grade from 1 to 7 Table 1: Net change in private sector employment between June 2010 working in each Government department were and June 20121 recruited (a) since June 2007, (b) since June 2002, (c) Thousand since June 1997, (d) since June 1992 and (e) before Private sector employment June 1992. [121815] June 2010 June 2012 Net change

Wales 947 978 32 Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the 1 Estimated as the difference between LFS total employment and the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have data from public sector organisations. Source: Labour Force Survey asked the authority to reply. and returns from public sector organisations 331W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 332W

Table 2: Net change in private sector employment between the Aviation: Musicians 12 month periods ending December 2010 and March 2012 Thousand John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Private sector employment 12 months ending: Transport if he will support the Association of British December 2010 March 2012 Net change Orchestras and the Musicians’ Union in their representations to the European Commission’s Department for Transport to secure legislative change that would Wales 881 *905 24 enshrine the right of musicians to travel with their Vale of Clwyd 20 **22 2 instrument in the aircraft cabin. [122661] Note: Coefficients of Variation have been calculated for the latest period as Mr Simon Burns: The size and amount of cabin or an indication of the quality of the estimates. See Guide to Quality: hold baggage that a passenger is permitted to take on Guide to Quality: The Coefficient of Variation (CV) indicates the quality of an estimate, board a commercial aircraft is a matter for airlines to the smaller the CV value the higher the quality. The true value is likely decide as private commercial companies. The Department to lie within +/- twice the CV - for example, for an estimate of 200 for Transport has no plans to introduce legislation on with a CV of 5% we would expect the population total to be within this issue, but will engage fully with any future proposals the range 180-220. from the Commission. Key: * 0 = CV<5%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered precise ** 5 = CV <10%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered Heathrow Airport reasonably precise *** 10 = CV <20%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered acceptable Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for **** CV ? 20%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered too Transport what his policy is on (a) retaining runway unreliable for practical purposes alternation and (b) the introduction of mixed mode Source: operation at Heathrow. [123672] Annual Population Survey Mr Simon Burns: As stated in a written ministerial statement on 7 September 2010, Official Report, columns DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER 13-14WS, the coalition Government remains committed Lobbying to runway alternation at Heathrow airport and will not be reviving the plans for mixed mode considered by our predecessors. Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister when he plans to publish a response to the public consultation on introducing a statutory register of lobbyists document; and when he plans to publish a High Speed 2 Railway Line White Paper outlining its proposals for a new draft Bill. [123139] Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will assess the effect of locating the Miss Chloe Smith: The consultation document London terminus of High Speed 2 at (a) Euston and “Introducing a Statutory Register of Lobbyists” was (b) Old Oak Common on (i) journey times and convenience published to gather evidence from experts in the field for (1) HS2 and (2) underground and overground and members of the public. It asked a number of passengers, (ii) the cost of stations and connections, (iii) specific questions, the answers to which are helping the cost of the HS2 link, (iv) housing, (v) noise levels, inform the policy on lobbying reform. The consultation (vi) air pollution, (vii) loss of open public space and closed on 20 April 2012 and we published a summary of (viii) regeneration; if he will take steps to ensure that all responses on 16 July. The Government is pursuing this affected London boroughs are consulted; and if he will agenda and following our consultation we will take make a statement. [122418] stock. Mr Simon Burns: An assessment was carried out during the initial design stage when considering the optimal site for stations. This was published in March TRANSPORT 2010 and can be found at: Apprentices http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110202231927/ http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/highspeedrail/hs2ltd/ Mike Crockart: To ask the Secretary of State for hs2report/ Transport (1) how many apprentices working in his Chapter 3 is relevant to journey times, underground Department are (a) paid and (b) completing a qualification and overground passengers and cost of stations. The as part of the apprenticeship; [123097] Appraisal of Sustainability for HS2 made an assessment (2) how many (a) paid apprentices and/or (b) paid of the impact on housing, noise, air pollution, open public space and regeneration and this is available at: interns are employed in his Department. [123098] www.dft.gov.uk/aos Norman Baker: There are currently 281 paid apprentices Building on the Appraisal of Sustainability, a further and no paid interns in the Department for Transport assessment will be made as part of the environmental and its six executive agencies. All apprentices are completing impact assessment process which I expect to consult a qualification as part of their apprenticeship. upon in spring 2013. 333W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 334W

Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport case for HS2 in time to support the deposit of the if he will make it his policy that his Department should Hybrid Bill for Phase 1 of HS2 by December 2013. undertake a comprehensive re-examination of the business case for HS2. [122714] Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when his Department will publish an update Mr Simon Burns: The Government is committed to to the Economic Case for High Speed 2. [122730] HS2 as the best way to provide the essential extra capacity that is required on our railways, and there are Mr Simon Burns: We expect to publish the next no plans to re-examine the business case for the project. update to the Economic Case in time for consultation We expect to publish the next update to the Economic on the Phase 2 preferred route and consideration of the Case in time for consultation on the Phase 2 preferred Hybrid Bill for London-West Midlands. We expect to route and consideration of the Hybrid Bill for London-West deposit the Hybrid Bill by the end of 2013 and are Midlands. We expect to deposit the Hybrid Bill by the currently exploring options for bringing forward the end of 2013 and are currently exploring options for Phase 2 consultation from 2014 to 2013. bringing forward the Phase 2 consultation from 2014 to 2013. Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if his Department will ensure that the evaluation by Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport High Speed 2 engineers of the proposals for a full which responses to the HS2 consultation were not taken tunnel under the Chilterns Area of Outstanding Natural into account by HS2 Ltd’s contractor Dialogue by Beauty proceeds without delay and that the resulting Design, by constituency. [122723] feedback is given to interested parties before the end of November 2012. [122731] Mr Simon Burns: The Department does not hold this information—Dialogue by Design did not analyse responses Mr Simon Burns: An option for a full tunnel under by constituency. the Chilterns was considered in detail by HS2 Ltd engineers and the then Secretary of State before the Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport decision to proceed with HS2 was taken in January how individuals and organisations that responded to 2012. A HS2 Ltd report entitled ‘Options for additional the HS2 consultations can check that their contributions tunnelling through the Chilterns’ was published in January have been registered and included in the analysis of the 2012 and is available at: consultations. [122724] http://www.hs2.org.uk/assets/x/85362

Mr Simon Burns: The consultation responses website Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport allows universal access to view the organisation responses what the current date for the estimated completion of listed in Appendix 2 of the Consultation Summary the environmental impact assessment for High Speed 2 Report, the Appendices of the Addendum reports and London to Birmingham route is. [122732] the response forms from members of the public and local/regional businesses that were not marked as Mr Simon Burns: The environmental impact assessment ‘confidential’. Names have been redacted from the individual (EIA) for the HS2 route section between London and responses and are listed by a Respondent ID number. the West Midlands is currently under way. HS2 Ltd will Individuals who wish to know their Respondent ID undertake a public consultation on a draft Environmental number and any individuals or organisation that marked Statement based on EIA data in spring 2013. The their response as ‘confidential’ may also check their revised Environmental Statement for HS2 will then be response was registered and included in the analysis by submitted to Parliament alongside the hybrid Bill towards contacting HS2 Ltd on 020 7944 4908 or by emailing to: the end of 2013. [email protected] Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Those who submitted responses affected by the when the delayed compensation consultation document statements on 17 July and 18 September have been will be issued by his Department. [122733] contacted. Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Transport when he plans to announce details of the whether his Department will use a full Ecosystems consultation on compensation measures for Phase 1 of Service Approach for the next version of the Economic High Speed 2. [122752] Case for High Speed 2. [122729] Mr Simon Burns: We will launch linked consultations Mr Simon Burns: The Department updates its appraisal on property and compensation, and on safeguarding guidance on an annual basis, taking into account the for HS2 as soon as possible. latest evidence where possible. The Department plans to release updated appraisal guidance, which will be High Speed 2 Railway Line: Heathrow Airport subject to extensive consultation, in early 2013. We are currently working with DEFRA in order to Michael Fabricant: To ask the Secretary of State for agree which aspects of the Ecosystems Services Assessment Transport what plans he has to adapt the route of High approach can be incorporated immediately, and which Speed 2 if the Department’s Inquiry on Aviation areas need further development before they can be used recommends an enhancement of landing and take-off within transport appraisal guidance. The results of this capability at London Heathrow; and if he will make a exercise will inform the next update to the economic statement. [122876] 335W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 336W

Mr Simon Burns: There are no plans to rethink the Redditch-Birmingham Railway Line route for HS2 decided on in January. Clearly in due course we will need to consider whether the views of the Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for Airports Commission have any implications for our Transport whether his Department has any plans to high speed rail strategy. But I do not expect any delay to upgrade the Redditch to Birmingham line. [122411] be caused to the project or for the progress of the hybrid Bill to be affected. Mr Simon Burns: The Redditch to Birmingham line is to be upgraded by 2014 by the addition of a double Railways: Fares track section at Alvechurch to enable additional peak train services to operate between Redditch and Birmingham. Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether he has had discussions with the Research Chancellor of the Exchequer on the three per cent above RPI increase in regulated rail fares. [122838] Chris Kelly: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what external policy research his Department has Mr Simon Burns: The Secretary of State for Transport commissioned in each of the last six years; from which regularly discusses a range of policy issues with the organisation each such piece of research was commissioned; Chancellor of the Exchequer. and what the cost of each such piece of research was. The Prime Minister announced on 7 October that the [123186] Government is capping the increase in the cap on average regulated rail fares at RPI + 1% in January 2013 Norman Baker: Research to inform policy is and 2014. commissioned by all relevant policy directorates and agencies. I regret that the information requested is not Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for held centrally and can be provided only in the form Transport with reference to the Command Paper requested at disproportionate cost. ‘Reforming Our Railways: Putting the Customer First’, Information on research commissioned by the when he expects to end above-inflation fare increases. Department, including details of supplier and cost, is [122950] generally reported through websites including: Mr Simon Burns: In March this year, Government set DFT(c): out its plans to reduce the cost of running the railway http://www.dft.gov.uk/rmd/ by around 30% by 2019. Our plans can be found on the HA: Department’s website at: http://www.highways.gov.uk/specialist-information/ http://www.dft.gov.uk/rail-reform knowledge-compendium/ If we can make substantial reductions to the cost of MCA: running the railways and the improvement in the wider http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mcga07-home/aboutus/mcga- economic situation permits, we can bring to an end the aboutus-research2.htm era of above inflation fare rises in average regulated fares, while continuing to expand capacity on our rail Thameslink Railway Line network. Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Railways: North Wales Transport whether he is satisfied that the Thameslink rolling stock procurement process was carried out Guto Bebb: To ask the Secretary of State for correctly. [122808] Transport if he will make an estimate of the cost of upgrading the signalling on the North Wales coastal Mr Simon Burns: Yes. The recent announcement route; and if he will make a statement. [122642] regarding pausing activity relates to franchising only, and so there are no implications for the procurement of Mr Simon Burns: This is an operational matter for the trains for Thameslink. As is normal for this type of Network Rail. The Government has provided funding procurement, before contract award, we continue to to Network Rail and the rail industry up to 2019 to ensure that the Siemens proposal remains value for purchase the infrastructure enhancement that best improves money. passenger and freight journeys in Wales and England. Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Guto Bebb: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport with reference to the consultation on the Transport what assessment he has made of the case for combined Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern investment in infrastructure on the Conwy Valley line. franchises, what estimate his Department has made of [122645] the number of passengers whose journey will be affected by the proposed end of some services entering Mr Simon Burns: The case for maintenance and the Thameslink core on the Wimbledon loop. [122814] renewal investment on the Conway Valley line is an operational matter for Network Rail. The Government Mr Simon Burns: The most recent passenger counts has not identified any case for strategic enhancement for Wimbledon Loop trains show just over 7,000 passengers investment in the line. Funding is available should the arriving in central London during the weekday morning rail industry identify a worthwhile case for local passenger peak, and just over 10,000 all day. Around 55% of these or freight infrastructure enhancement. passengers travel to destinations north of Blackfriars. 337W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 338W

Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Transport if he will review the Thameslink rolling how many Eversheds LLP staff worked on the West stock procurement process. [122909] Coast Mainline franchise on behalf of his Department; and what the (a) grade and (b) hourly rate was of Mr Simon Burns: The recent announcement regarding each. [122725] pausing activity relates to franchising only, and so there are no implications for the procurement of the trains Mr Simon Burns: In total, 15 Eversheds LLP staff for Thameslink. As is normal for this type of procurement, worked for the Department on the Intercity West Coast before contract award, we continue to ensure that the franchise competition. For reasons of commercial Siemens proposal remains value for money. confidentiality, we are unable to disclose the grades of the individuals involved or the hourly rates that were Traffic Lights charged by each individual. Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for for how many hours work Eversheds LLP charged his Transport (1) whether his Department has carried out Department in respect of work relating to the West an analysis of the potential effects of installing Coast Mainline franchise; and at what hourly rate. environmentally-friendly LED traffic lights; [122805] [122726] (2) what (a) discussions he has had with and (b) guidance he has issued to local highway authorities on Mr Simon Burns: In total, Eversheds LLP charged installing LEDs in traffic lights. [122806] the Department for 420 hours work relating to the Intercity West Coast franchise competition. For reasons Norman Baker: The Department for Transport has of commercial confidentiality, we are unable to disclose not carried out any formal analysis of the effects of the hourly rates that were charged. introducing LED traffic lights. Nor has it issued any specific guidance for highway authorities on installing Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport them. for how many hours work WS Atkins charged his Department in respect of work relating to the West LED traffic lights have been in use for some time. Coast Mainline franchise; and at what hourly rate. Procurement and installation of traffic lights is a matter [122727] for the relevant highway authority, which is free to decide what type of traffic lights to specify. Mr Simon Burns: In total, WS Atkins charged the Department for 4,950 hours work relating to the InterCity Transport: EU Action West Coast franchise competition. For reasons of commercial confidentiality, we are unable to disclose Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport the hourly rates that were charged. which transport projects in the UK contribute to the Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for trans-European transport network. [122834] Transport what technical errors have been made by his Department’s officials in evaluating the West Coast Mr Simon Burns: The European Union’s Trans European mainline franchise bids. [122728] Network—Transport (TEN-T) programme exists to support the development of the single market by providing Mr Simon Burns: Evidence of significant flaws in the funding for transport infrastructure projects on a set of Department’s approach emerged while officials were defined networks. Theoretically any project taking place undertaking very detailed evidence-gathering in preparation on the TEN-T network, whether carried out by the for legal proceedings in the High Court. public or the private sector, contributes to its development. These flaws stem from the way the level of risk in the The Department does not maintain records of all projects bids was evaluated. Mistakes were made by officials in that have been undertaken on the network. We do keep the way in which inflation and passenger numbers were a list of the TEN-T awards that have been made by the taken into account, and how much money bidders were Commission to UK projects; these are detailed in a then asked to guarantee as a result. table which has been placed in the Libraries of the House. I refer the hon. Member to the statement made by the Secretary of State for Transport, my right hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire Dales (Mr McLoughlin), West Coast Railway Line: Franchises on 15 October 2012, Official Report, columns 46-47, and the terms of reference of the Laidlaw Inquiry Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport which have been laid in the Library of the House. The how many WS Atkins staff worked on the West Coast Inquiry will look into the Department’s handling of the Mainline franchise on behalf of his Department; and competition for the Intercity West Coast franchise and what the (a) grade and (b) hourly rate was of each. lessons to be learned. It will provide initial findings to [122640] the Secretary of State by the end of October and a final report by the end of November. Mr Simon Burns: In total, 32 WS Atkins staff worked for the Department on the Intercity West Coast franchise Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport competition. For reasons of commercial confidentiality, what contingency plans are in place for the West Coast we are unable to disclose the grades of the individuals Mainline to be operated by Directly Operated Railways involved or the hourly rates that were charged by each if First Group is not in a position to take over the individual. franchise from 9 December 2012. [122736] 339W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 340W

Mr Simon Burns: I refer the hon. Member to the Mr Simon Burns: Some senior civil servants in the statement made by the Secretary of State for Transport, Department for Transport will have had some limited my right hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire Dales involvement in both the West Coast Main Line franchise (Mr McLoughlin), on 15 October 2012, Official Report, process and the Thameslink rolling stock procurement columns 6-8WS, that the Department for Transport is process. However, the team involved in the analysis and commencing negotiations with Virgin Rail Group. evaluation of the Intercity West Coast procurement was Directly Operated Railways has been undertaking a different team from that involved in the analysis and prudent contingency preparations and they will continue evaluation of the Thameslink rolling stock bid. to stand ready should they be required.

Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT (1) what estimate he has made of (a) transition and (b) ongoing costs that will be incurred by Directly Operated Railways for running the West Coast Mainline before Archaelogy and Cultural Heritage transferring services to a new operator; [122737] (2) what plans are in place to (a) provide additional Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, staff for Directly Operated Railways to operate the Olympics, Media and Sport what recent steps her West Coast Mainline and (b) to cover the salary and Department has taken to involve and interest young recruitment costs of such staff; [122738] people in (a) archaeology and (b) heritage; and if she will make a statement. [122629] (3) what expenditure his Department has incurred to develop plans for the West Coast Mainline to be Mr Vaizey: Involving and interesting young people in operated by Directly Operated Railways, including on archaeology and heritage are key aims of the Department, salaries and consultants. [122740] of English Heritage (EH) and of the Heritage Lottery Fund (HLF). EH engages young people through Mr Simon Burns: I refer the hon. Member to the programmes such as Discovery Visits which invite school statement made by the Secretary of State for Transport, children to explore and learn from the historic properties my right hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire Dales in English Heritage’s care. (Mr McLoughlin), on 15 October 2012, Official Report, In 2011-12 there were nearly 640,000 educational columns 6-8WS, that the Department for Transport is visits to EH’s historic properties, collections and tailored commencing negotiations with Virgin Rail Group. learning activities and resources. EH also provides funding Directly Operated Railways has been undertaking for the Council for British Archaeology’s Young prudent contingency preparations and they will continue Archaeologists’ Club, the only UK-wide club for young to stand ready should they be required. We do not yet people up to the age of 17 interested in archaeology. have final figures, but spend to date has been around This year EH was awarded £2.7 million by the £1 million. This includes expenditure on salaries and Department for Education for the Heritage Schools consultants. Initiative that, working with the heritage sector over three years, will encourage schools to use their local Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for heritage in delivering the curriculum. Transport how many of his Department’s officials are All projects supported by HLF deliver learning outcomes involved in the planning for the West Coast Mainline to and many engage children and young people directly in be operated by Directly Operated Railways and what activity that helps them learn about their built environment. their specific roles are. [122739] HLF estimates that over 26,000 of its projects and more than £4.4 billion of its funding has benefited children Mr Simon Burns: I refer the hon. Member to the and young people across the UK. statement made by the Secretary of State for Transport, 2012 marks 10 years of HLF’s successful Young my right hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire Dales Roots programme though which young people aged (Mr McLoughlin), on 15 October 2012, Official Report, 11-25 deliver local heritage projects and learn new skills. columns 6-8WS, that the Department for Transport is HLF has awarded £27.5 million to over 1,300 Young commencing negotiations with Virgin Rail Group. Roots projects led by young people, including over £400,000 in youth-led projects specifically focussed on Directly Operated Railways has been undertaking archaeology. prudent contingency preparations and they will continue to stand ready should they be required. The Department Through the newly-formed Cultural Education had a core team of five working wholly or partly on the Partnership Group, HLF, other lottery distributors and contingency planning and they were supported, where EH are seeking to align their strategies so as to maximize needed, by colleagues from other areas of the Department. the number of high quality cultural education opportunities Work on contingency planning is necessarily wide ranging for children and young people in England. and as such roles cannot be strictly defined. Resources are being reviewed as a result of the announcement. Arts

Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Transport whether the civil servants involved in the Olympics, Media and Sport what assessment she has West Coast Mainline franchise process had any involvement made of the contribution of the creative industries to in the Thameslink rolling stock procurement. [122804] local economies in each region. [122628] 341W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 342W

Mr Vaizey: The Department for Culture, Media and Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Sport (DCMS) does not currently produce regional Olympics, Media and Sport how many IT projects have data for Creative Industries estimates, either for employment been developed for her Department since May 2010. or for gross value added (GVA).It has, however, published [122475] regional data on creative industries for the number of enterprises (head offices) and local units (workplaces) Hugh Robertson: Since May 2010, four IT projects on a consistent basis for the last three years. This can be have been developed by the Department. found by clicking on the ‘Key findings and table’documents located on the following webpage: Newspaper Licensing Agency http://www.culture.gov.uk/publications/8682.aspx Ian Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, On the ground, economic research has not been Olympics, Media and Sport what the cost to her undertaken since the abolition of the regional development Department was of Newspaper Licensing Agency licences agencies. However, Creative England—a national agency for scanned content for each year since 2010. [122734] that invests in and supports creative ideas, talent and businesses in film, TV, games and digital media—is Hugh Robertson: The cost of the Newspaper Licensing liaising with, for example, local enterprise partnerships, Agency licence for digital press clippings to the Department, raising funds for research and doing a major research is set out in the following table: project with EC funds on creative clusters. Creative England recently partnered with Birmingham county Cost (net) (£) council on a scoping of the creative sector. 2009-10 0 Broadband 2010-11 0 2011-12 149,563.44 John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for 1 These costs include media monitoring activity for the Olympic and Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how many local Paralympic Games. authorities had had Broadband Delivery UK audits before 1 September 2012; and how many such local authorities have had those audits agreed. [122792] WORK AND PENSIONS

Mr Vaizey: Under the terms of the BDUK grant Atos Healthcare agreement with local authorities, the Department for Culture, Media and Sport can carry out audits of Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work projects, but to date, no audits have taken place and and Pensions what correspondence he has received from there are no immediate plans to audit any of the local any Minister in the Scottish Government on Atos broadband projects. Healthcare; and if he will place copies of any such correspondence in the Library. [122634] John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how many local Mr Hoban: We receive correspondence from Ministers authorities have been required to have a new additional across Great Britain on both the work capability assessment audit by Broadband Delivery UK in (a) September, (WCA) and Atos Healthcare. We are committed to (b) October and (c) November 2012. [122793] continually improving the WCA, and Ministers ongoing interest in the assessment highlights the need to build Mr Vaizey: Under the terms of the BDUK grant on the improvements already made. agreement with local authorities, the Department for Culture, Media and Sport can carry out audits of Carer’s Allowance projects, but to date, no audits have taken place and there are no immediate plans to audit any of the local Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Work broadband projects. and Pensions (1) what plans he has to increase the earnings threshold for carer’s allowance; [122632] John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) what plans he has to synchronise minimum wage Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport when the next rises with the earnings threshold for carer’s allowance. negotiations with the EU on state aid, broadband and [122633] Broadband Delivery UK will take place. [122794] Mr Hoban: There are no current plans to increase the Mr Vaizey: I can confirm that it is our understanding earnings threshold, or to synchronise minimum wage that the Commission is on track to issue, its final rises with the earnings threshold for Carer’s Allowance. decision in late October/early November which will allow projects to get under way. Employment and Support Allowance

Information and Communications Technology Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on how many occasions a decision by his Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Department in relation to eligibility for employment Olympics, Media and Sport how many IT systems and support allowance has been overturned without the which cost over £1 million and were introduced since claimant undertaking a formal appeal process in each May 2010 are in use in her Department. [122470] month since May 2010. [122624]

Hugh Robertson: None. Mr Hoban: The information requested is not available. 343W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 344W

Housing Benefit Information is only available for those HB claimants whose claim is passported and receive jobseeker’s allowance Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Work (income-based). The Department does collect information and Pensions what proportion of housing benefit claimants on those in receipt of jobseeker’s allowance from the (a) of all ages and (b) under 26 were (i) in work and (ii) housing benefit data source (SHBE) but to assess the unemployed in the latest period for which figures are completeness of recording and quality assure the figures available. [123052] would incur disproportionate cost. Steve Webb: The number of claimants of housing Such information as is available is in the following benefit (HB) who are unemployed is not available. table.

Housing benefit recipients, non-passported and in employment, Great Britain, May 2012 Of which: In Percentage of all HB recipients All non-passported employment who are in employment

All recipients 5,031,740 1,753,426 903,435 18.0 Recipients aged under 26 500,290 137,542 102,347 20.5 Notes: 1. The data refers to benefit units, which may be a single person or a couple. 2. Recipients are as at second Thursday of the month. 3. Case load data is rounded to the nearest 10, percentages to one decimal place. 4. SHBE is a monthly electronic scan of claimant level data direct from local authority computer systems. It replaces quarterly aggregate clerical returns. The data is available monthly from November 2008 and May 2012 is the most recent available. 5. This data refers to people receiving housing benefit not in receipt of a passported benefit and are recorded as being in employment if their local authority has recorded employment income from either the main claimant, or partner of claimant (if applicable), in calculating the housing benefit award. People receiving passported benefits who are working part-time cannot be identified and are therefore not included in this analysis. Source: Single Housing Benefit Extract (SHBE)

Housing Benefit: Young People Secretary of State for Northern Ireland on future changes to the age of eligibility for housing benefit; [123147]

Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Steve Webb: Current Government policy does not Pensions if he will make an assessment of the potential include withdrawing housing support from people aged effects of the withdrawal of housing benefit from those under 25. aged under 25 years on levels of (a) homelessness and (b) poverty in each of the next four financial years. [122977] Jobcentre Plus

John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many complaints have been made by and Pensions (1) what his policy is on the removal of users of Jobcentre Plus against staff in the last five years by (a) region and (b) Jobcentre Plus office. housing benefit for people aged under 26 years; [123055] [123145] (2) what discussions he has had with (a) the Social Development Minister in Northern Ireland and (b) the Mr Hoban: The information requested is provided in the following tables:

Jobcentre Plus Customer Complaints Level 1 and 2—2008-09 to 2010-11 Complaints category: Helpfulness/courtesy of staff Regions: National East Midlands East of England London North East North West

2008-09 4,430 145 234 801 163 369 2009-10 5,149 161 340 839 223 365 2010-11 7,616 226 360 1,257 332 514

Complaints category: Helpfulness/courtesy of staff Regions: Yorks and National Scotland South East South West Wales West Midlands Humber

2008-09 4,430 438 479 392 311 437 348 2009-10 5,149 429 527 365 272 578 373 2010-11 7,616 965 521 391 225 666 389 345W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 346W

Jobcentre Plus Customer Complaints Level 1 and 2—2011-12 to date Complaints category: DWP staff do not treat me with respect Groups: London and North Central Home Southern Eastern National England Counties England North West England Wales Scotland

2011-12 7,344 1,287 2,000 873 670 763 250 1,105 2011-13 to date 6,416 649 1,106 753 2,210 494 137 563

The tables show a breakdown of complaints made Claimants as percentage of about Jobcentre Plus staff in the last five years. From Claimants aged working age population 2008-2009 to 2010-11 the breakdown is provided by 50 and over (%) region. Following the introduction of a new complaints handling process, the data from 2011-12 are now recorded November 2002 175 0.3 at group level. Office level data are not available as February 2003 175 0.3 returns are made by JCP districts. DWP have eight May 2003 170 0.3 standard complaint categories. In 2011-12 JCP aligned August 2003 175 0.3 with these categories, so while the complaints from November 2003 155 0.3 2008-09 to 2010-11 are recorded as complaints about February 2004 190 0.3 the Helpfulness/Courtesy of staff, the complaints from May 2004 195 0.3 2011-12 to date are recorded under the category ‘DWP August 2004 215 0.4 staff do not treat me with respect’. November 2004 205 0.3 February 2005 240 0.4 Jobseeker’s Allowance May 2005 265 0.4 August 2005 245 0.4 Caroline Dinenage: To ask the Secretary of State for November 2005 240 0.4 Work and Pensions what steps his Department has February 2006 265 0.4 taken to ensure that people can continue to receive May 2006 310 0.5 jobseeker’s allowance while waiting for Criminal Records August 2006 255 0.4 Bureau clearance to take up a new job. [122789] November 2006 290 0.4 Mr Hoban: Jobseeker’s allowance is payable whenever February 2007 335 0.5 a claimant is available for and actively seeking work. May 2007 320 0.5 It is possible for a person to restrict the type of work August 2007 310 0.5 they are willing to take as long as they can show they November 2007 280 0.4 still have a reasonable chance of finding work within February 2008 280 0.4 this restriction, for example, a jobseeker might wish to May 2008 245 0.4 restrict their availability to temporary jobs until the August 2008 265 0.4 Criminal Records Bureau check has been completed. November 2008 315 0.5 February 2009 480 0.7 Jobseeker’s Allowance: Peterborough May 2009 575 0.8 August 2009 575 0.8 Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for November 2009 590 0.9 Work and Pensions how many people aged 50 and over February 2010 580 0.8 were claiming jobseeker’s allowance in Peterborough May 2010 550 0.8 constituency in each quarter since 2001; what proportion August 2010 490 0.7 of the working population such people represented; November 2010 465 0.7 and if he will make a statement. [121756] February 2011 520 0.8 Mr Hoban: The information on jobseeker’s allowance May 2011 510 0.7 claimants aged 50 and over in Peterborough parliamentary August 2011 550 0.8 constituency as a percentage of the working age population November 2011 540 0.8 for each quarter: February 2001 to August 2012 is as February 2012 630 0.9 follows: May 2012 630 0.9 August 2012 635 0.9 Claimants as percentage of Notes: Claimants aged working age population 1. Figures are computer held cases only. 50 and over (%) 2. Claimant figures are rounded to the nearest 5, percentages to one decimal place. February 2001 210 0.4 3. Percentages are calculated using working age ONS Mid-Term May 2001 195 0.3 population estimates and include females aged 16 to 59 and males August 2001 200 0.3 aged 16 to 64 from the relevant parliamentary constituency. November 2001 180 0.3 4. Caseload data is published at: https://www.nomisweb.co.uk/Default.asp February 2002 185 0.3 Source: May 2002 185 0.3 100% Count of unemployment-related benefits, Jobcentre Plus computer August 2002 185 0.3 systems ONS Mid Term population estimates 2001 to 2010 347W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 348W

Poverty: Children The Child Poverty Act 2010 sets four income-based UK-wide targets to be met by 2020. The targets are Margaret Curran: To ask the Secretary of State for based on the proportion of children living in households Work and Pensions how many children were living in with relative low income, absolute low income, combined poverty in Scotland in each of the last 10 years. low income and material deprivation and persistent [123143] poverty (all before housing costs have been taken into account). Esther McVey: Estimates of the number and proportion of children living in poverty in the United Kingdom are Relative low income and absolute low income figures published in the Households Below Average Income for the last 10 years and combined low income and (HBAI) series. Estimates specifically for Scotland are material deprivation for the last seven years for Scotland published in the Poverty and Income Inequality in can be found in table 1 as follows: Scotland series.

Table 1. Child Poverty Statistics for Scotland—number and percentage of children falling below various thresholds, 2001-02 to 2010-11 Relative low income (BHC) Absolute low income (BHC) Combined low income and material deprivation Thousand Percentage Thousand Percentage Thousand Percentage

2001-02 280 27 170 16 — — 2002-03 260 25 170 16 — — 2003-04 250 24 160 15 — — 2004-05 210 21 130 13 170 16 2005-06 210 21 130 12 130 13 2006-07 210 21 120 12 160 16 2007-08 200 20 120 12 150 15 2008-09 210 21 110 11 160 16 2009-10 200 20 110 11 150 15 2010-11 170 17 100 10 130 13 Notes: 1. These statistics are based on the Poverty and Income Inequality in Scotland: 2010-11 data sourced from the 2010-11 Family Resources Survey (FRS) and is available at: http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0039/00394961.pdf 2. The income measures used to derive the estimates shown employ the same methodology as the Department for Work and Pensions publication ″Households Below Average Income″ (HBAI) series, which uses disposable household income, adjusted using modified OECD equivalisation factors for household size and composition, as an income measure as a proxy for standard of living and is available at: http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=hbai_arc 3. The relative low income child poverty measure captures the number of children who live in a household with an equivalised income below 60% of contemporary median income, Before Housing Costs (BHC). 4. The absolute low income child poverty measure captures the number of children who live in a household with an equivalised income below 60% of 1998-99 median household income held constant in real terms. 5. The combined low income and material deprivation measure captures the number of children who live in a household with an equivalised income below 70% of contemporary median income and have a material deprivation score of 25 or more. A suite of questions designed to capture the material deprivation experienced by families have only been captured since 2004-05 and are therefore only available from this year onwards. 6. All estimates are based on survey data and are therefore subject to a degree of uncertainty. Small differences should be treated with caution as these will be affected by sampling error and variability in non-response. 7. Numbers and percentages of children in low-income households have been rounded to the nearest 10,000 children or percentage point. Source: Poverty and Income Inequality in Scotland: 2010-11

Figures for persistent poverty are published in a Notes: separate statistical release called Persistent Poverty in 1. These statistics are based on the Persistent Poverty in Scotland data sourced from the British Households Panel Survey (BHPS) and is Scotland and can be found in table 2 as follows: available at: Table 2. Persistent Child Poverty Statistics (%) for Scotland 1999- http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0039/00395002.pdf 2002 to 2005-08 2. The persistent child poverty measure captures the number of children who have lived in a household with an equivalised income Persistent Poverty (BHC) (%) of less than 60% of contemporary median income for at least three of the last four years, BHC. 3. All estimates are based on survey data and are therefore subject to a 1999-2002 19 degree of uncertainty. Small differences should be treated with caution as these will be affected by sampling error and variability in non-response. 2000-03 18 4. Percentages of children in low-income households have been rounded to the nearest percentage point. 2001-04 17 Source: Persistent Poverty in Scotland 2002-05 13 Social Security Benefits: Disqualification 2003-06 12

2004-07 13 Mr Ward: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many people in Bradford district were 2005-08 13 sanctioned under his Department’s mandatory work 349W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 350W activity scheme for failing to participate in the scheme and around 2.2 million men will start to receive state whilst claiming job seeker’s allowance. [123021] pension between April 2012 and March 2019: (a) Around 510,000 of these women are estimated to have a Mr Hoban: The number of individuals claiming gross state pension of less than £140 per week (in 2012-13 jobseeker’s allowance (JSA) that have had sanctions earnings terms) or around 50% of all women in this cohort. For applied for failing to participate in mandatory work the men starting to receive state pension over the same period activity in Bradford local authority between 16 May around 460,000 are estimated to have a gross state pension of less than £140 per week (in 2012-13 earnings terms) or around 20% of 2011 to 30 April 2012 is 130. all men in this cohort. Note: (b) The average (median) amount of gross state pension for Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. women in this group is estimated to be around £140 per week. The Source: average (median) amount of gross state pension for men starting to receive state pension over the same period is estimated to be DWP Information Directorate: JSA Sanctions and Disallowance around £185 per week. Decisions Statistics Database. The estimates above are for gross state pension amounts which include additional pension rights accrued in private pension State Retirement Pensions schemes during periods of contracting out. They do not include income from means tested benefits. Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for (c) The Government wants all pensioners to have a decent and Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the secure income in retirement. Pension credit provides a safety net for the poorest pensioners by topping up income to a minimum number of women born between 6 June 1951 and 5 amount, and Government has restored the earnings link for the December 1953 who will reach state pension age before basic state pension and given a ″triple guarantee″ that the basic men born during the same period; if he will estimate state pension will increase by the highest of the growth in average (a) the number of such women who will receive a state earnings, price increases or 2.5%. pension of less than £140 per week and (b) the average Source: state pension of (i) women and (ii) men born during (a) and (b): The Department’s PENSIM2 simulation model October this period; what recent discussions he has had about 2012 and DWP Forecasting Division: Budget 2012. Figures relate pensioner poverty among pensioners who will reach to Great Britain only. pension age before the single tier state pension scheme Telephone Services starts; and if he will make a statement. [121557] John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Steve Webb [holding answer 18 September 2012]: and Pensions what enquiry and claims telephone lines Women born between 6 June 1951 and 5 December his Department operates which are (a) free to the caller 1953 reach state pension age between 6 September 2012 and (b) may incur a charge to the caller; and what the and 6 November 2018 so information on actual amounts principal access number is of each. [123146] of state pension is not yet available. The Department’s forecasting models suggest that around 1 million women Mr Hoban: The information is as follows:

List of 0800 and 0845 numbers operated by Contact Centre Services (CCS), Pensions Service and Disability and Carers Service (DCS) Cost incurred/free Free to call (if calling from a from mobile Business Service line Telephone number BT landline) providers?1

JCP Balfour Beatty Switchboard - WSD 0845 6043719 Cost incurred No JCP Balfour Beatty Switchboard Welsh - WSD 0845 6044248 Cost incurred No JCP Benefit Cap 0845 6057064 Cost incurred No JCP Benefit Cap Welsh 0845 6057066 Cost incurred No JCP Crisis Loan 0800 0327952 Free Yes JCP Crisis Loan Welsh 0800 0328355 Free Yes JCP Employer Direct 0845 6012001 Cost incurred No JCP Employer Direct Welsh 0845 6014441 Cost incurred No JCP First Contact 0800 0556688 Free Yes JCP First Contact Welsh 0800 0121888 Free Yes JCP HSE 0845 3009923 Cost incurred No JCP Jobseeker Direct 0845 6060234 Cost incurred No JCP Jobseeker Direct Welsh 0845 6067890 Cost incurred No JCP Local Authority Fraud Hotline 0800 3286340 Free No JCP Maternity Allowance 0845 6088610 Cost incurred No JCP Maternity Allowance Welsh 0845 6088674 Cost incurred No JCP NINO 0845 6000643 Cost incurred No JCP NINO Welsh 0845 6021491 Cost incurred No JCP NBFH 0800 854440 Free No JCP NBFH Welsh 0800 6783722 Free No JCP Provider Helpdesk 0845 604 4015 Cost incurred No JCP Primary Benefit Enquiries 2— Cost incurred No JCP Primary Benefit Enquiries Welsh (ENQUIRE and IB 0845 6003018 Cost incurred No Migration) 351W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 352W

List of 0800 and 0845 numbers operated by Contact Centre Services (CCS), Pensions Service and Disability and Carers Service (DCS) Cost incurred/free Free to call (if calling from a from mobile Business Service line Telephone number BT landline) providers?1

JCP IB Migration 0845 6008192 Cost incurred No JCP Sanctions 0845 6023024 Cost incurred No JCP Sanctions Welsh 0845 6023018 Cost incurred No JCP Social Fund 0845 6036967 Cost incurred No JCP Self Service Helpline 0845 6043349 Cost incurred No JCP Self Service Helpline Welsh 0845 6043412 Cost incurred No JCP Tax Evasion Hotline 0800 788887 Free No JCP UKBA Datamatch (status validation helpline) 0845 6003080 Cost incurred No JCP Workplace Pension Information Line 0845 6001268 Cost incurred No JCP Workplace Pension Information Line Welsh 0845 6008187 Cost incurred No PDCS Pension Service 0845 6060265 Cost incurred No PDCS State Pension Claim Line 0800 7317898 Free Yes PDCS Pension Credit Claim Line 0800 991234 Free Yes PDCS Future Pension Centre 0845 3000168 Cost incurred No PDCS Future Pension Centre - Overseas 0845 6010322 (0191 Cost incurred No 2183600) PDCS National Pension Centre 0845 3013011 Cost incurred No PDCS International Pension Service 0845 6010008 Cost incurred No (01912187777) PDCS Disability Living Allowance and Attendance Allowance 0845 7123456 Cost incurred No Helpline PDCS Carers Allowance 0845 6084321 Cost incurred No PDCS Benefit Enquiry Line 0800 882200 Free Yes PDCS Disability Living Allowance Helpine (DWP) 0845 6020194 Cost incurred No PDCS Disability Living Allowance - Motability 0845 6020197 Cost incurred No PDCS Disability Living Allowance - Third Party 0845 9000121 Cost incurred No PDCS Tell Us Once 0800 0857308 Free No PDCS Method Of Payment Reform 0800 0856528 Free No PDCS Method Of Payment Reform 0800 0857075 Free Yes PDCS Method Of Payment Reform 0800 0857102 Free No PDCS Pension Tracing Service 0845 6002537 Cost incurred No PDCS Pensions Savings for Later Life 0800 6781132 Free No PDCS State Pension Equalisation 0845 6005362 Cost incurred No PDCS PDCS TPS Pension Credit 0800 7314811 Free Yes PDCS State Pension Deferrals 0800 7315413 Free No PDCS National Pension Centre - Home Responsibilities Payments 0800 917 7306 Free No PDCS Local Service (DWP Visiting) 0800 9179149 Free No PDCS Winter Fuel Helpline 0845 9151515 Cost incurred No PDCS State Pension Welsh 0800 7317936 Free Yes PDCS Changes (Welsh) 0845 6060275 Cost incurred No 1 DWP has an agreement with 02, Orange, Vodafone, T-Mobile, Hutchison 3G, Tesco Mobile, Virgin Mobile and Cable and Wireless. This agreement allows many DWP customers to make free mobile phone calls from their participating networks to the Department’s 0800 customer numbers. 2Various 0845s-see Table 2 for all 73 English 0845 numbers.

Table 2 Table 2 Primary benefit inquiry 0845 Numbers Primary benefit inquiry 0845 Numbers

Aberdeen 0845 608 8749 Canterbury 0845 608 8501 Barnsley 0845 608 8560 Carlisle 0845 608 8545 Basildon 0845 608 8575 Chester 0845 608 8534 Bathgate 0845 608 8630 Chesterfield 0845 608 8521 Belfast 0845 608 8770 Chippenham 0845 608 8621 Birkenhead 0845 608 8529 Chorlton 0845 608 8504 Bolton 0845 608 8531 Clyde and Fife 0845 608 8582 Bristol East 0845 608 8597 Clydebank 0845 600 1506 Burnley 0845 608 8502 Coatbridge 0845 608 8645 Bradford 0845 608 8556 Cosham 0845 608 8573 Bury St Edmunds 0845 608 8618 Derby 0845 608 8506 Caerphilly 0845 608 8562 Doncaster 0845 608 8508 Cannock 0845 608 8676 Exeter 0845 608 8564 353W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 354W

Table 2 Table 2 Primary benefit inquiry 0845 Numbers Primary benefit inquiry 0845 Numbers

Glasgow 0845 603 6347 Nottingham 0845 608 8528 Gloucester 0845 608 8624 Newcastle 0845 608 8642 Greenock 0845 608 8598 Oldham 0845 608 8523 Hackney 0845 600 6334 Preston 0845 608 8524 Halifax 0845 608 8548 Peterborough 0845 608 8603 Handsworth 0845 608 8648 Plymouth 0845 603 6095 Hanley 0845 608 8673 Ramsgate 0845 608 8626 Hastings 0845 608 8757 Ravenhurst 0845 608 8657 Hull 0845 608 8546 Sheffield 0845 600 1267 Huyton 0845 608 8535 St Austell 0845 608 8578 Hyde 0845 608 8526 St Helens 0845 608 8503 Ilford 0845 600 2612 Stockton 0845 600 1651 Kilmarnock 0845 608 8632 Sunderland 0845 608 8637 Leeds 0845 608 8590 Stratford 0845 600 0148 Leicester 0845 608 8525 Totton 0845 608 8620 Lincoln 0845 608 8532 Lisahally 0845 603 5759 Walsall 0845 602 0206 Llanelli 0845 608 8554 Watford 0845 608 8583 Luton 0845 608 8627 Wellingborough 0845 609 4904 Mansfield 0845 608 8518 Wolverhampton 0845 600 3115 Makerfield 0845 377 6001 Worcester 0845 608 8665 Merthyr Tydfil 0845 608 8552 Worthing 0845 608 8715 Newport 0845 608 8569 Wrexham 0845 600 3016 Norwich 0845 608 8571 York 0845 608 8550

Textphone services Cost incurred/free (if calling from a BT Business Service line Number landline)

JCP First Contact English and Welsh and E-Claims Helpline 0800 023 4888 Free JCP Crisis Loans 0800 032 7958 Free JCP National Benefit Fraud Hotline English and Welsh 0800 328 0512 Free JCP Local Authority Fraud Hotline 0800 328 6341 Free JCP Jobseeker Direct 0845 605 5255 Cost incurred JCP DWP Recruitment Line English and Welsh 0845 600 8191 Cost incurred JCP Workplace Pensions 0845 850 0363 Cost incurred JCP NINO Allocation English and Welsh 0845 600 0644 Cost incurred JCP Jobseeker Direct (Welsh) 0845 604 4022 Cost incurred JCP Social Fund/Maternity Allowance 0845 608 8553 Cost incurred JCP Primary Benefit and Ben Cap 0845 608 8551 Cost incurred JCP Self Service Helpline Textphone English and Welsh 0845 604 0523 Cost incurred JCP Employer Direct 0845 601 2002 Cost incurred JCP ED Welsh Text Phone 0845 601 4442 Cost incurred PDCS Method Payment Reform 0800 085 7146 Free 0800 085 7305 (Welsh) Free PDCS Tell Us Once 0800 141 2218 Free PDCS State Pension Claim Line 0800 731 7339 Free 0800 7317013 PDCS Benefit Enquiry Line 0800 243 355 Free PDCS Pension Credit Claim Line 0800 169 0133 Free PDCS Future Pension Centre 0845 3000169 Cost incurred PDCS National Pension Centre 0845 301 3012 Cost incurred PDCS International Pension Centre 0800 032 6436 Free PDCS Changes 0845 60 60 285 Cost incurred PDCS 0845 60 60 295 Cost incurred PDCS Carers Allowance 0845 604 5312 Cost incurred PDCS DLA and AA Main Line 08457 22 44 33 Cost incurred 355W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 356W

Debt Management Universal Credit Finance and Commercial Working Debt Management does not operate any inquiry lines Group which have taken place since January 2012. that are free to the caller. They have three inquiry lines [123043] as follows: Steve Webb: The Universal Credit Finance and 0845 8500293 Debt Recovery Commercial Working Group is a joint forum with local 0845 8500051 Recovery From Estates authorities to discuss and assess financial impacts of 0845 6046697 Textphone DWP’s universal credit programme and related matters. The DWP website currently contains summaries of All these numbers incur charges to the caller which transactions of this group from some previous meetings. are dependent on the service providers’ tariff. We are developing a new, more secure and interactive In addition Debt Management has one geographic web application that will allow for more discussion and inquiry line: 44 161 904 1233 This is specifically for access to documents and transactions from this and customers living abroad (as the non-geographic numbers other bodies. When this is available we will ensure that do not always work from overseas). Charges for these the records are brought up to date. calls will be at the service providers’ international tariff. Child Maintenance Group Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if he will update his Department’s The Child Maintenance Group do not have any 0800 website to include the minutes of the meetings of the free to call customer numbers. Their customer facing Local Authority Transition Working Group which have numbers are prefaced by 0845 which are typically charged taken place since the last published minutes in at between 1p and 10.5p per minute from a landline. February 2012. [123044] Calls from mobile phones generally cost between 12p and 41p per minute. Steve Webb: The Local Authority Transition Working Any call a customer makes will incur a charge and Group is an important forum to engage with local this is dependent upon their service provider and whether authorities about all aspects of DWP’s universal credit the call is made from a landline or mobile. programme. The DWP website currently contains Our telephony is not split between inquiries and summaries of transactions of this group from some claims. Child support telephony are geographical numbers previous meetings. We are developing a new, more based upon the home address of the parent with care secure and interactive web application that will allow for the six different regional areas, for our customers for more discussion and access to documents and with claims which have been active since 2003. There is transactions from this and other bodies. When this is a separate number for customers with active claims available we will ensure that the records are brought up prior to 2003, and a dedicated number for employers. to date. The numbers are as follows: Welfare Reform Act 2012 Number

Eastern 0845 6090092 Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Work North West 0845 6090082 and Pensions what recent discussions he has had with Midlands 0845 6090062 (a) the Minister for Social Development and (b) the Northern 0845 6090042 Finance Minister in Northern Ireland on introducing South East 0845 6090052 operational flexibility and mitigation measures for the South West 0845 6090072 implementation of the Welfare Reform Act 2012 in Employer Helpline 0845 7136010 Northern Ireland. [123053] Pre-2003 Scheme Helpline 0845 7133133 Mr Hoban: Ministers from both Administrations meet Universal Credit regularly to discuss these issues and others of mutual interest. Yvonne Fovargue: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Capability Assessment Work and Pensions what the cost to his Department is of the (a) helpline and (b) training for hon. Members and their staff on the introduction of universal credit. Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for [122770] Work and Pensions if he will consider contracting work capability assessments to the NHS. [123140] Mr Hoban: We are developing our plans to support hon. Members and their staff during the introduction Mr Hoban: The current contract end date for provision of universal credit: costs are therefore not yet available. of Work Capability Assessments is August 2015. Future We will use the opportunity of our pathfinder approach provision will be contracted for through our Health and to develop and test support arrangements which balance Disability Assessment Framework which was let in April the need to provide appropriate advice and to focus our 2012. The Framework has been let for an initial five investment on the service offered to claimants. year period and can be extended for a further two years. NHS are not among the suppliers on the Health and Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Disability Assessment Framework and so will not be Work and Pensions if he will place on his Department’s invited to tender directly. Organisations who are on the website a record of the actions from meetings of the Health and Disability Assessment Framework may choose 357W Written Answers17 OCTOBER 2012 Written Answers 358W to subcontract the delivery of assessment services and the next exercise to determine the proportion of Work so there is the potential for the NHS to become involved programme attachments which are referred to tier one in that capacity. and tier two voluntary sector organisations. [123037] Work Programme Mr Hoban: An exercise looking at the proportion of Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Work programme referrals to voluntary sector organisations and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 3 September in tier one and two of supply chains is currently under 2012, Official Report, column 166W, on employment way, and is expected to be completed before the end of schemes, when during the autumn he plans to conduct autumn 2012. ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 17 October 2012

Col. No. Col. No. PRIME MINISTER ...... 310 WALES—continued Engagements...... 310 Investment ...... 308 Engagements...... 317 Inward Investment ...... 306 Nuclear Deterrent ...... 316 Ofqual...... 307 Police and Crime Commissioners ...... 301 WALES...... 301 Rail Infrastructure ...... 309 Enterprise Zones...... 304 Respect Agenda ...... 303 Housing Benefit ...... 309 Steel Industry...... 302 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 17 October 2012

Col. No. Col. No. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— AFFAIRS...... 25WS continued Agriculture and Fisheries Council...... 25WS Sino-British Joint Declaration on Hong Kong ...... 28WS TREASURY ...... 23WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 26WS Banking ...... 23WS Relations between Sudan and South Sudan ...... 26WS LIBOR (Wheatley Review) ...... 23WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 17 October 2012

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 318W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 340W Human Trafficking ...... 318W Archaelogy and Cultural Heritage ...... 340W Arts...... 340W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 289W Broadband ...... 341W Apprentices...... 289W Information and Communications Technology...... 341W Apprentices: Warrington...... 290W Newspaper Licensing Agency ...... 342W BAE Systems: EADS ...... 291W Construction: Lancaster ...... 291W DEFENCE...... 310W Extractive Industry Companies...... 292W Afghanistan ...... 310W Green Investment Bank: Pendle ...... 292W Aircraft Carriers ...... 310W Newspaper Licensing Agency ...... 293W Armed Forces: Officers ...... 311W Nottinghamshire...... 293W Astute Class Submarines...... 311W Recruitment ...... 293W BAE Systems: EADS ...... 311W Regional Assistance: Northern Ireland ...... 295W Freedom of Information ...... 311W Regional Growth Fund: North East ...... 295W Olympic Games 2012: Security ...... 312W Shops: Empty Property...... 296W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 331W Lobbying...... 331W CABINET OFFICE...... 328W Average Earnings: Peterborough...... 328W EDUCATION...... 321W Civil Servants...... 329W GCSE ...... 321W Employment: Wales ...... 330W GCSE: Brighton ...... 321W Higher Education: Admissions ...... 322W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 300W Bed and Breakfast Accommodation: Children...... 300W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 322W Buildings: Standards ...... 300W Carbon Emissions...... 322W Cambridge ...... 300W Centre for Sustainable Energy...... 322W Children: Disadvantaged...... 302W Combined Heat and Power ...... 323W Domestic Waste: Waste Disposal ...... 302W Electricity Generation...... 323W Electric Cables ...... 303W Energy Distribution ...... 324W First Time Buyers ...... 303W Energy: Profits ...... 324W Housing: Construction...... 303W Exhaust Emissions: Shipping ...... 324W Local Government ...... 304W Green Deal Scheme...... 324W Non-domestic Rates...... 305W Low Carbon Networks Fund...... 325W Planning Inspectorate: Staff...... 305W Natural Gas ...... 326W Private Rented Housing: Electrical Safety...... 305W Nottinghamshire...... 326W Social Services: Older People ...... 306W Nuclear Power...... 326W Col. No. Col. No. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE—continued SCOTLAND...... 312W Renewable Energy: Infrastructure ...... 327W Anti-slavery Day ...... 312W Renewable Heat Incentive Scheme ...... 327W Cabinet Growth Implementation Committee...... 313W Warm Home Discount Scheme ...... 328W Defence: Employment...... 313W Electoral Register...... 313W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Research ...... 313W AFFAIRS...... 296W Sovereignty ...... 314W Bovine Tuberculosis: Disease Control...... 296W Training ...... 315W Ducks: Animal Welfare...... 297W Floods: Insurance ...... 298W TRANSPORT ...... 331W Food Poverty...... 298W Apprentices...... 331W Peat...... 299W Aviation: Musicians ...... 332W Trees: Diseases ...... 299W Heathrow Airport ...... 332W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 332W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 319W High Speed 2 Railway Line: Heathrow Airport...... 334W Israel...... 319W Railways: Fares ...... 335W Sri Lanka ...... 320W Railways: North Wales...... 335W UN Special Representative on Sexual Violence in Redditch-Birmingham Railway Line...... 336W Conflict...... 320W Research ...... 336W World War II: Medals ...... 320W Thameslink Railway Line...... 336W Traffic Lights ...... 337W HEALTH...... 306W Transport: EU Action ...... 337W Bovine Tuberculosis ...... 306W West Coast Railway Line: Franchises...... 337W Care Homes ...... 307W Hunter Syndrome ...... 308W TREASURY ...... 316W In Vitro Fertilisation ...... 308W Bank Services...... 316W Pseudoxanthoma Elasticum...... 309W British Business Bank ...... 316W Psychiatry ...... 309W Business: Peterborough...... 317W Thalidomide...... 309W Children: Maintenance ...... 317W Taxation: Community Interest Companies ...... 317W HOME DEPARTMENT ...... 279W Anti-slavery Day...... 279W Emergency Calls: Performance Standards...... 279W WALES...... 280W Extradition: USA...... 279W Apprentices...... 280W Identity and Passport Service...... 279W Broadcasting Industry...... 280W Police: Powers ...... 280W City Regions ...... 280W West Coast Railway Line ...... 281W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 319W Afghanistan ...... 319W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 281W Equality ...... 281W JUSTICE...... 281W Animal Welfare ...... 281W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 342W Burglary: Prosecutions...... 282W Atos Healthcare ...... 342W Criminal Cases Review Commission...... 282W Carer’s Allowance...... 342W Domestic Violence: Legal Aid Scheme...... 282W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 342W Electronic Tagging ...... 284W Housing Benefit ...... 343W Prison Service ...... 284W Housing Benefit: Young People...... 343W Prisons ...... 284W Jobcentre Plus ...... 344W Prisons: Contracts for Services...... 285W Jobseeker’s Allowance...... 345W Prisons: Merseyside...... 286W Jobseeker’s Allowance: Peterborough ...... 345W Public Expenditure...... 288W Poverty: Children ...... 347W Television: Licensing ...... 290W Social Security Benefits: Disqualification...... 348W State Retirement Pensions...... 349W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 315W Telephone Services...... 350W Assisted Areas...... 315W Universal Credit...... 355W HMS Caroline...... 315W Welfare Reform Act 2012...... 356W Research ...... 315W Work Capability Assessment...... 356W Welfare Reform Act 2012...... 316W Work Programme...... 357W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. 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CONTENTS

Wednesday 17 October 2012

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 301] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Wales Prime Minister

Relationship, Drug and Alcohol Education (Curriculum) [Col. 324] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Diana Johnson)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill [Col. 327] Further considered in Committee; read the Third time and passed

Petitions [Col. 444]

Oral Health Services [Col. 446] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Public Bodies [Col. 455] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Sulphur Contents for Marine Fuels [Col. 458] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Westminster Hall Food Prices (Planning Policy) [Col. 67WH] Plastic Bags [Col. 88WH] Criminal Justice System [Col. 97WH] Parliamentary Language [Col. 122WH] Chancel Repair Liability [Col. 130WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 23WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 279W] [see index inside back page]