Helm Stierlin Zur Systemischen Familientherapie

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Helm Stierlin Zur Systemischen Familientherapie Aus dem Feld Lyman Wynne und Margarete Singer und von anderen Pionieren praktisch, etwa in der Behandlung schizophre- Das Interview ner oder manisch-depressiver Patien- ten, umsetzen ließen. Und so war es auch hier in Heidelberg mein eigent- liches Ziel, die Pragmatik der Therapie weiterzuentwickeln. Das hat auch sehr die Anfangszeit der Familiendynamik Ohne Kontroversen wird’s schnell langweilig! bestimmt, zu der die damaligen Pio- Hans Rudi Fischer im Gespräch mit Helm Stierlin zur Geschichte und niere der Familientherapie wie Lyman Wynne, Ted Lidz oder auch Ivan Bos- Zukunft der Familientherapie zormenyi-Nagy wichtige Beiträge lie- ferten. Sie besuchten uns in den 1970-er Jahren und sorgten für viel Verstörung die Familiendynamik gegründet hast. und Unruhe. Was sie zu sagen hatten, Helm Stierlin, Prof. Dr., Damals gab es das noch nicht, was wir passte noch nicht in die Weltsicht der Arzt und Schriftsteller. Nach leitenden Funk- heute »Systemische Therapie« nennen. damals vorherrschenden Psychoanaly- tionen im In- und Kannst du unseren Lesern und Leserin- tiker hinein. Und der Begriff »syste- Ausland 1974 –1991 nen von heute in Kürze die Psychoszene misch« war zu der Zeit auch noch so Direktor der Abteilung charakterisieren, in der die Familien- ungewöhnlich, dass fast alle Lektoren für Psychoanalytische dynamik das Licht der Welt erblickte? in meinen Büchern den Begriff »syste- Grund lagenforschung und Familien- Was waren 1975 die drängenden Fragen, misch« nahezu automatisch in »sys- therapie der Universität Heidelberg. die Therapeuten, von neuen Ideen tematisch« korrigierten. Bis heute hat Gründer und langjähriger Herausgeber infiziert, umtrieben? sich erstaunlich viel verändert. Im der Zeitschrift Familiendynamik. Editorial der letzten Ausgabe der Fami- Forschungsschwerpunkte: Familien- liendynamik konnte ich lesen, dass die dynamik und Systemische Therapie Kurze Geschichte(n) der Suchmaschine Google mehr als 600 000 bei Psychosen und Psycho somatosen; Familientherapie – Amerika Ablösungsprozesse des Jugendalters; Homepages ausweist, auf denen das Psychohistorische Studien. Unter Helm Stierlin: Ich hatte das große Stichwort »systemisch« erscheint, was anderem ca. 250 wissenschaftliche Glück, an Orten zu arbeiten, wo sich doch für eine enorme Veränderung in Aufsätze; Autor und Co-Autor von damals viele der führenden Pioniere den letzten zwanzig Jahren spricht. 13 Büchern mit Übersetzungen in trafen; ich hatte die Möglichkeit, mich zwölf Sprachen. von ihnen anregen, aber natürlich auch, FD: »Systemisch« ist inzwischen ja mich von ihnen verunsichern zu las- en vogue; der inflationäre Gebrauch des sen. Das gilt vor allem für meine Zeit Adjektivs heute verrät uns aber noch FD: . Lieber Helm, deine Vita als am National Institute of Mental Health nicht, was dich damals an den dahinter Philosoph und Wissenschaftler ist ein (Bethesda, Maryland), einem der gro- liegenden Ideen und Modellen beein- wunderbares Beispiel dafür, dass syste- ßen Forschungsinstitute in den USA, druckt und beeinflusst hat. misches Denken kein Standpunkt ist, an ähnlich unseren Max-Planck-Institu- Helm Stierlin: Es war von mir miter- dem man ankommt und stehen bleibt. ten; dort arbeitete ich lange Zeit in der lebter Wandel, nicht wahr, der mich vor Du bist nach wie vor viel unterwegs, im Nähe von Lyman Wynne, der den so- allem beeinflusste. Ich war mit der Fra- Denken und in der Welt, zwischendurch genannten Adult Psychiatry Branch lei- ge beschäftigt: Was ist an diesen Ent- gibst du mir hier dieses Interview. tete, dessen Leitung ich dann im Jahre wicklungen wirklich neu, was gibt uns Was bleibt in deinem Denken ist der 1972 übernahm, bevor ich nach Heidel- eine neue Richtung des Weges vor? Weg, den du beschreitest. Der Weg berg kam. Ich war damals noch nicht Dabei hatte ich selbst noch das Glück, zurück führt uns vorwärts – wie das mit dieser »systemischen Revolution« Gregory Bateson persönlich kennen- Heidegger einmal so schön formuliert beschäftigt, so wie diese Pioniere. zulernen. Ich konnte ihn und die so- hat. In diesem Sinne möchte ich zu- genannte Palo-Alto-Gruppe besuchen, nächst mit dir zurückblicken in das Jahr FD: Was war für dich spannend an die am Anfang, also 1959, aus Jay Ha- 1975, als du mit Josef Duss-von Werdt diesen gleichermaßen reizvollen wie ley, John Weakland, Don Jackson und verunsichernden Ideen? Gregory Bateson bestand. Helm Stierlin: Vor allem interessierte mich, wie sich die Erkenntnisse von Familien UNGEKÜRZTE FASSUNG DES INTERVIEWS AUS FAMILIENDYNAMIK 1 / 2 0 0 9 dynamik 1 AUS DEM FELD Paul Watzlawick, Virginia Satir und FD: Gegenüber dem ursprünglichen einige andere kamen später dazu. Die psychoanalytischen Fokus auf die ersten vier bildeten damals den Kern. intrapsychischen Vorgänge richtet sich Bateson hatte sich schon etwas abge- hier der Blick auf das äußere Geschehen, sondert, weil er sich mit Jay Haley nicht die Interaktion zwischen den beteiligten gut vertrug. Und es war für mich Akteuren? ein äußerst interessantes Erlebnis, 1962 Helm Stierlin: Ja, genau. Also, meine zum ersten Mal eine Familientherapie Frage an Haley war, wie sich ein Blick mitzuerleben. Haley und Weakland auf die Spiele der Beteiligten, auf de- waren die Therapeuten, und Don Jack- ren Kommunikationsmuster mit einem son kommentierte das Ganze für mich. Blick oder einer Linseneinstellung ver- söhnen lässt, die sich auf das inner- Der neue, provokative Blick psychische Geschehen und auf die auf die Symptome Konfliktdynamik richtet, die im Vor- dergrund der analytischen Bemühung FD: In dieser revolutionären Phase steht. Haley hat sich bekanntlich über warst du als ausgebildeter Arzt gerade die Analyse immer wieder lustig ge- mal 36 Jahre jung, seit 1957 unterwegs macht, was auch in dem Buch zum im großen Amerika. Wie sah die Situa- Chestnut Lodge Sanatorium (Rockville, Ausdruck kommt, dessen Titel im tion damals auf deinem individuellen Maryland, USA) Englischen The Power Tactics of Jesus Lebensweg aus? Christ (1969) lautet. Helm Stierlin: Ich hatte gerade fünf Jahre am Chestnut Lodge Sanatorium Aber es war gerade dieses Spannungs- FD: Im Deutschen heißt es: Die Jesus- (Rockville, Maryland) gearbeitet, das feld, das es mir angetan hatte, um es zu Strategie. Die Macht der Ohnmächtigen. damals als das Mekka der analytisch beschreiben. Also, ich erzähle immer Helm Stierlin: Ja, die Jesus-Strategie. orientierten Psychosetherapie galt, und gerne diese Geschichte: Als ich 1962 in Und es ist auch interessant, dass die hatte meine analytische Ausbildung Palo Alto war und meine erste Famili- damaligen Revolutionäre sich nicht in gerade abgeschlossen. entherapie beobachtet hatte, fragte ich die vorhandenen beruflichen Struktu- Jay Haley: »Da ich gerade meine analy- ren einfügten oder dem akademischen FD: Spielte in diesem Hospital nicht tische Ausbildung beendet habe, inte- Mainstream folgten, wie man es ei- auch der bekannte Film und Roman ressiert es mich natürlich sehr, inwie- gentlich hätte erwarten können. Selbst über eine Psychotherapie, Ich hab dir weit das, was ich als Analytiker gelernt Bateson hat ja nie seinen Doktor ge- nie einen Rosengarten versprochen? habe, relevant für das ist, was ihr hier macht. Haley hat erst Theaterwissen- Die Psychotherapeutin im Buch produziert habt?« Darauf antwortete schaft studiert und als Stückeschreiber (von Hannah Green) bzw. im Film ist ja Jay Haley, er war damals eine Art en- gearbeitet, bevor er sich der Kommuni- Frieda Fromm-Reichmann nachempfun- fant terrible, gerade auch, was die Ana- kation zuwandte; John Weekland war den, die auch dort gearbeitet hat? lyse anbelangt, wie folgt: »Die Analyse auch nicht als Psychologe ausgebildet. Helm Stierlin: Ja. Mit Hannah Green und was wir hier betreiben passen sehr hatte ich auch selbst noch Kontakt, gut zusammen. Ich gebe dir gern ein FD: Er war Chemiker, glaube ich, ebenso mit Frieda Fromm-Reichmann. Beispiel: Ich kenne eine Frau, die ist später hat er sich der Anthropologie Sie war sogar noch zeitweise meine jetzt etwa Anfang vierzig. Sie ist schon zugewandt. Supervisorin. Das war für mich eine fünf Jahre in Analyse, viermal die Wo- Helm Stierlin: Don Jackson war der sehr aufregende Zeit, nicht zuletzt auch che. Ein Ende der Analyse ist nicht ab- einzige Psychiater in der Gruppe. Er darum, weil auf der einen Seite diese zusehen. Insgesamt spielen hier drei war vor mir auch in Chestnut Lodge Pioniere der Analyse mit den Syste- Spieler mit: nämlich einmal die Frau, ge wesen. Von ihrer völlig unbeschwer- mikern aufeinanderprallten. Bateson die einen Freund gefunden hat, dem ten Außenperspektive aus konnten sich hatte einen großen Respekt vor Frieda sie alles erzählen kann. Der zweite diese Pioniere offenbar alles erlauben Fromm-Reichmann, obgleich sie eine Spieler ist der Ehemann, der die Ana- und dadurch auch eine weitgehende ganz andere Position als er vertrat. lyse bezahlt und sich dadurch von Verunsicherung erzeugen. Denn 1962 seinen Schuldgefühlen wegen seiner war die Psychoanalyse auf ihrem Zenit, vielen Affären befreit, und der dritte und viele wichtige Lehrstühle waren Mitspieler ist der Analytiker, der sich um seine Miete nicht zu sorgen braucht.« UNGEKÜRZTE FASSUNG DES INTERVIEWS AUS FAMILIENDYNAMIK 1 / 2 0 0 9 Familien 2 dynamik DAS INTERVIEW von Analytikern besetzt. Dies auch und mussten nicht nach Bezahlung Lodge-Patientin – eine attraktive junge zum Teil als Folge der Emigration vie- fragen, das bezahlte der Staat – und Studentin –, die in einem katatonen ler deutscher Analytiker, die damals andererseits einer intensiven Arbeit- Stupor eingeliefert wurde.
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