Jazz Guitar/Classical Guitar: A Symbiotic Relationship By Dr. Steven Kinigstein

Part I Bucky Pizzarelli, jazz guitarist extraordinaire, informed me that he had recently gotten a Ramirez clas - sical guitar. More than thirty years earlier, Mike Gari was proudly showing me his newly acquired Contreras. These two great jazz guitarists are not the only ones I’ve known who have sustained a serious and devoted involvement with the classical guitar. Look at the voice Bill Wurtzel Steve Kinigstein, Gene Bertoncini and Mike Gari leading in any chord-melody by Howard Morgen, where SK: If you’re playing your archtop, and a classical the depth of his study of the classical guitar most obvi - tune is called, do you use a pick? ously displays its influence. The manner in which the BW: Just fingerstyle. voices move is completely logical; yet they sacrifice neither warmth nor beauty. I could go on citing exam - SK: Gene, what’s your primary guitar? ples of major jazz guitarists who play the classical gui - GB: I play a lot of solo guitar, so I use a classical guitar tar or classical guitar repertoire, but that falls short of made by John Buscarino. (It’s amplified, as well.) the point of this article. Moreover, there are many clas - sical guitarists who have made an enduring commitment SK: Does it have a built-in pickup? to jazz. (The comments of two of them, David Burgess GB: Yes. and David Richter will be seen in Part II of this article.) Clearly, elements exist in each of these genres that have SK: Do you ever use a guitar that does not have a managed to attract players of one to the other. built-in pickup? (Certainly, the benefits to be had from the understanding GB: Yes, a Velasquez. of voice leading on the classical instrument, though great, cannot be the sole reason for involvement on the SK: That brings up another question: Do you find part of jazz guitarists.) In order to get an idea, at least in that the question of amplification influences your part, of what is at the root of this reciprocal attraction technique? Do you play a piece differently on the (and if there might be, indeed, a symbiosis), I assembled Velasquez from the way you would play it on the a group of virtuoso guitarists from each of these two Buscarino? genres. The guitarists participating in this article, which GB: Sometimes there’s a different feel. There’s a differ - will be presented in two parts, are (listed alphabetical - ent kind of fulfillment when you are making all the ly): Roni Ben-Hur, Gene Bertoncini, David Burgess, sound yourself. I feel a little better when all the sound is Mike Gari, Howard Morgen, Bucky Pizzarelli, David created just by the guitar. It’s impossible to work that Richter, Bill Wurtzel, and Jimmy Wyble. In the first seg - way in most situations – when you’re playing with other ment of Part I, which took place on August 6, 2008, we musicians, or in a large concert hall. Even with that, will hear from Gene, Mike, and Bill. sometimes it’s a joy to play with just a microphone and a guitar. I’ve gotten so used to playing on the Buscarino; SK: Am I correct in assuming that all three of you I feel more at home on it. All my latest recordings have consider yourselves to be primarily jazz guitarists? been done with just a microphone and the Buscarino. All: Yes. SK: What about you, Mike? SK: When you are playing classical repertoire, do MG: (Laughing) I’ve sort of gotten into a bastardized you use a classical guitar or an archtop? version of classical and jazz. So at this stage, I use a BW: I can use an archtop; but when it’s going to be a lot pick, and fingers, and I use that technique on any guitar. of classical pieces, I use a nylon-strung Bellido or an I’m not going to get the nuances that I would with a amplified Takamine. classical guitar; but somehow I’m able to make myself

I Just Jazz Guitar February 2009 Page 89 happy, and sometimes I’m able to convey that feelingf SK: Gene, what attracted you to classical guitar? when I’m playing for people. Did you start out playing jazz on a classical guitar? GB: No. I always had an archtop, a D’Aquisto. When I was studying with Chuck Wayne- in my college days, he told me to listen to this recording of Julian Bream. It was called “The Art of Julian Bream.” I’ll never forget that record; it just changed my life completely.

SK: What was the initial action that you took? GB: Well, a bunch of the guys were studying with Albert Valdes-Blaine. Barry Galbraith, Howie Collins – those guys. So I immediately started studying with Albert Valdes-Blaine. He was the one who introduced me to a Velasquez guitar. He used to have a student model there. It had wonderful tone. I just dove into the repertoire and studied. I really started to think about playing some of the repertoire. But I was always a jazz player, and always earning money as a jazz player. Mike Gari and Bucky Pizzarelli Pretty soon, when I was accompanying singers or doing SK: Knowing your playing as well as I do, I am cer - a record date, if it was requested, I would sneak in a tain that your combination of fingers and pick is a classical guitar. Like if I was accompanying Lena matter of choice, rather than anything imposed by Horne, I used to do some solo stuff. Then I started doing limitations. it with just that (classical) guitar. I always had the clas - MG: Actually, I surrendered, I just surrendered! At one sical guitar with me to practice. I got to be known as time I could really play it well that way (with fingers); being able to play it, so I started getting record dates. but I just could not get it to the next level. It wasn’t There were films where they needed a classical guitar, going to happen. I just had to acknowledge it. I said to and albums used classical guitar. There myself, “I like this stuff. I like hearing it, and I want to were very few guys doing it. was one. He’s be able to play it for other people too.” This was my a giant! Jay Berliner could sit down and sight-read any - compromise. thing.

SK: Bill, what attracted you to the classical guitar? SK: I actually did a session once with Jay Berliner. BW: A friend of mine said that if I wanted to improve He was amazing. my musicianship, it would be a good idea to take a cou - GB: I feel so lucky. First of all, I fell in love with Julian ple of classical lessons. I was lucky to find a great Bream’s playing. Then, all this stuff happened. And at teacher, Yasha Kofman, and was hooked. just about the same time, the bossa nova came to our country, and I became friendly with Joao Gilberto. Joao SK: In what ways do you feel that it improved your used to borrow my Velasquez whenever he had a con - general musicianship? cert. I still have the marks where he used to scotch tape BW: Sound, how to make the guitar sing, how to press the set list. (laughing) That was on my old Velasquez. the strings, reading, familiarity with the fingerboard, the Then I got a new one. Everything that I’ve accom - ability to relax and live in the moment… plished individualistically has been because I started playing classical. SK: Did the benefits of those things that you learned (for example, how to make the guitar sing more) SK: Mike, what attracted you to the classical guitar? carry over to your archtop as well? MG: Well, my first teacher was Howard Morgan, who BW: Definitely. was big on finger style. He was always using his fingers. That got me into it. Then, of course, I was listening to SK: What about when you’re playing your archtop people like Gene, and Chuck Wayne, and they were with a pick? playing great classical. Also, the whole concept of using BW: Yes. Sound above all. A little vibrato goes a long way. your fingers opens up so many things. Even playing I Page 90 Just Jazz Guitar February 2009 jazz. Not only as far as chords; but also single notes, played the Capriccio? climbing up with the fingers instead of with the pick. GB: Marvelous, for an old guy. You hear doing that a lot. I just love clas - All: (laughter – lots of it) sical music. I wish I could play it as well as Gene;it BW: Yeah, when I order three minute eggs, they make takes a lot of dedication. It’s made a tremendous differ - me pay in advance. ence in my playing. Having a foot in both jazz and clas - sical music makes you feel so confident. You feel like you can draw from both of them. GB: If I could make a point: I think having studied clas - sical repertoire led me to the whole idea of preparing arrangements. It wasn’t as if I was just using stuff I knew to play a gig. The whole thing is about sitting down and working out something.

SK: Voice leading, etc.? GB: Yeah, everything. And writing it. Almost like a classical piece. It represented a departure from the stuff Gene, Bill and Mike I already knew. The classical technique will afford you (Author’s note: In fairness to Bill, he’s really not an “old these possibilities in playing. guy” – no matter how well he plays classical repertoire. Let’s say he’s an excellent and exuberant example of SK: I’ll address this question to everybody: We’re macho middle age.) already finding that both these genres have a great deal in common. Is there element in jazz or classical BW: At 9 years old, I taught myself and played by ear. guitar that you would view as exclusive to one of the I played professionally very young; but couldn’t read genres? Is there even anything about either of them music. In my twenties, I studied with some fine jazz gui - that is, in fact, contradictory. tarists, but it didn’t come easily. I studied classical gui - BW: The time feel is different. In classical music, syn - tar to become a better musician. When I heard Julian copation is open to interpretation; but in jazz it leads the Bream and John Williams, I thought, “How the hell way. could I do that?” And the written music seemed impos - GB: I play more linearly on the archtop. More lines, like sible. Yasha Kofman helped me stay calm and practice a saxophone player. Although, I’ve been working on very slowly. If you can’t play it slow, you can’t some chord solos. One of the greatest guys doing that play it fast. Yasha is my main man. (www.classicalgui - now is Russell Malone. He’s brilliant. He’s doing that tarny.com) on the archtop, with a pick – that’s not easy. I find the chord-solo stuff, and the combination chords and linear SK: Actually every time I’ve heard you, you were things are easier on the classical guitar. wonderful. BW: Thanks. I love the music, and I get a lot of joy from SK: Mike, What about you? it. Classical guitar is worth the effort. Charlie Byrd MG: I would agree with Bill. It has to be a completely came to one of my gigs. On a break, I told him that play - different feel – you don’t want to be swinging. I’m ing the tremolo in Tarrega’s Recuerdos de la Alhambra always amazed the way classical guitarists play it the was a bitch and asked if he had any advice. He said, “I way it is. And the time is not stiff, yet it’s perfect. The know what you mean. I’ve been working on it for forty whole flow is so beautiful when it’s done right. God years .” In other words, they don’t give it away. help you if you’re a jazz player trying to swing. Gene is the only one who makes it work. (to Gene) When you SK: This question is addressed to everybody. Do you blend some of those things, like when you’re playing find yourself drawn mostly to repertoire written “How Insensitive” and you lead it into Chopin! It’s just specifically for the guitar, or are you equally attract - great. ed to transcribed pieces that were originally com - GB: Bill is using more classical stuff in his gigs posed for other instruments? MG: Yeah, I heard him doing it the other night. I told GB: I don’t look at anything written for guitar anymore. him it was fabulous. (to Bill) Remember, when you I just like to do my own arrangements. I did go through I Just Jazz Guitar February 2009 Page 91 a period when I studied the repertoire – the Sor Studies, pieces. If anything, it adds some colors to them. I feel pieces by Lennox Berkeley. Then I started doing my blessed with a certain amount of taste that has been own transcriptions and arrangements Rachmaninoff developed over the years. What I’m trying to say is that “Vocalise”, Chopin, stuff that really appealed to me. For I think I know when something is okay when I’ve put a while I did do the repertoire, a lot of it. “Asturias” and my individual stamp on it. Just the idea of playing that all that stuff. Never got to be that great at it. piece is a gift.

SK: Mike, what about you? MG: I’m pretty much drawn to the repertoire; but to me the most important things are the transcriptions. I’d like to get my hands on some the transcriptions by Julian Bream. The way he plays it makes all the difference – and where he plays it. It’s so important. When you, yourself, transcribe a piece, you control the way it sounds on the guitar. Then you’ll hear somebody play a different transcription of the same piece. and the two will sound completely different. Maybe there are voices that you missed or something else. I’m in “copycat Gene and Bill land.” I always want to find the transcription I like best, SK: When you’re attempting to stay close to the that sounds good. I wouldn’t even dare to do stuff on my composer’s intentions, is it analogous to, perhaps, a own. judge in a courtroom talking about the letter of the law as opposed to the spirit of the law ? SK: Bill? GB: Maybe, yeah. It may not be a literal, note-for-note BW: I play traditional pieces as written. I would love to interpretation, but you really get the spirit of the piece be able to arrange like Gene. coming across. And since we’re all jazz players, it’s part of our creativity to do something with a piece. We do it SK: (to BW) Are you most attracted to pieces that with standards. Why not do it with a classical piece? were originally composed for the guitar, or could you First the piece has to appeal to you. Then you think, ”I’d be equally motivated to play a Chopin Mazurka or like to play that.” Then you work out something. There perhaps a Gymnopedie by Satie? are certain things that you want to keep in the piece. You BW: If it sounds pretty, I try to play it. don’t want to depart too much. Take the Chopin Prelude that the bossa nova “How Insensitive” is based on. You SK: Gene, when you’re transcribing a piece, how wouldn’t want to change anything in that. much do you feel obligated to shape your transcrip - tion so that it will conform with the intentions of the SK: Have any of you ever been confronted with a sit - composer? uation in which you have wanted to write a tran - GB: I feel you have to maintain the integrity of the scription of a piece that was originally composed for piece, no matter what. Obviously, there are certain lim - a strictly monophonic instrument or one that is itations on the guitar; but I believe you can play any - essentially monophonic? thing on the guitar. You could do “The Rite of Spring” BW: The most important thing is that on a restaurant on the guitar, if you really worked at it. You might leave gig, no matter what classical piece you’re playing, you out some notes, but what you capture is the essence of have to be able to segue into “Happy Birthday”. the harmony, the essence of the piece. Maybe insert All: Laughter – and nods of agreement. some of your own colors that would work nicely. There are various pieces that I’ve recorded like “Traumerei” SK: Here’s a question for everybody. During the by Schumann. I put some nice colors in there that Baroque Era, the featured instrumentalist in a con - Schumann would have liked. (laughs) I really feel that certo would, if able, take an improvised solo. For way. It doesn’t upset the piece; but it also puts my little example, during the final episode at the end of the stamp on it. It’s hard to play the Chopin Preludes on solo first movement in a concerto grosso (which was writ - guitar. I’ve changed the harmonies on a number of ten in ritornello form), the soloist would be given a things. It doesn’t seem to harm the integrity of the cadenza in which to improvise a solo or play one that I Page 92 Just Jazz Guitar February 2009 was improvisatory. When you play a classical piece, SK: Do you feel there is a significant advantage (or do you ever take an improvised solo? compensatory drawback) in the fact that it is easier BW: No. to play wider intervals with the right hand on the MG: No, it wouldn’t work for me. classical guitar as opposed to using a pick on the GB: With the stuff I’ve worked out, I’m trying to be true archtop? to the piece. I have to be true to the arrangement. If I GB: It’s certainly easier to play intervals simultaneous - don’t do that, I feel bad. ly on the classical guitar, sixths, sevenths or ninths for example. It’s like that if you want to articulate those SK: Let’s move on, then. Do you find that there is a sixths, sevenths, or ninths. It’s easier to leap over those difference in left-hand technique that might be influ - strings with your fingers instead of going over them enced by the nature of the repertoire, or the physical with a pick. Some guys don’t have a problem with that. construction of the fingerboard of the classical ver - I think Jack Wilkins doesn’t. Same with sus the archtop? and Mike Gari. GB: I change between guitars, and take both guitars with me in a lot of situations. Because I started on the SK: Does your classical technique influence the way archtop when I was seven, and was studying with you approach a solo in a jazz piece because you’re Johnny Smith when I was thirteen, the techniques I able to do those larger intervals more easily? Do find learned in those days are still with me. It doesn’t bother yourself thinking, perhaps, in larger intervals during me to switch guitars: but if I didn’t practice on the clas - your solos? sical guitar all the time, it’s gone overnight. MG: It doesn’t really change anything; but it does give me more range. I’m going to stay with what I want to SK: What about you, Bill? say within the context of the tune. There’s no point in BW: In classical repertoire, especially pieces not origi - doing it just for the sake of doing it. nally written for guitar, you have to bounce around the neck to get the best sound and the most efficient transi - SK: It hasn’t made you hear in a different way? tions. The same goes for my playing on the archtop. It’s Stoke the imagination a bit? funny – I played that way by ear before I learned posi - MG: Well, you do have an advantage if your ears and tion playing. Classical got me back on the right track. your fingers are going in a certain way and you have the ability to do it. SK: Even when you’re reaching across the finger - BW: Fingerstyle opens up the possibilities. Checkout board for chords? Howard Morgen at www.howardmorgen.com . Howie BW: No, not at all. does it all. His new book “Through Chord Melody and Beyond” is a masterpiece. A high point in my life was a SK: Mike? guitar duo with Howie and getting to hear him play for MG: For me, jazz and classical are very similar on the 12 years.( Author’s note: Howard Morgen will be partic - neck. They’re both precise and clean ways of playing, as ipating in the second installment of this article. ) opposed to some other genres. If you’re playing rock, MG: Also, when you pluck a chord, you’re playing you have to do it differently. But for classical and jazz, everything simultaneously, as a piano would. It’s a dif - I find, the technique for each is very similar. ferent sound from what you get when you’re running a GB: When you study classical repertoire, the guitar is pick through the strings. used differently from the way most jazz players use it. GB: Linearly, I think I tend to slur more on the classical You might play an entire melody on one string, just to guitar-rest strokes etc. I try to create a swing feel as get the color of the string, or you’ll play a line that uses opposed to trying to articulate every note, although I do the whole instrument in a different way. You learn a lot that quite a bit sometimes because I practice scales. I about the guitar in terms of possibilities when you study never practice the scales with just i m . I use all three fin - classical repertoire. I think everybody profits from that. gers. But a lot of times I’ll do the slurring because it When you play only with a pick, you tend to do a lot tends to lend itself better to jazz lines. When I’m using more position-playing instead of using the whole instru - a pick, I tend to do more alternate picking, unlike Bill, ment. I don’t mean exclusively, but quite often. who gets such a great time and feel. I may be wrong MG: The attack and the colors are different, although about this, but I think he isn’t always going up and down the physical act of fretting is similar. with the pick, getting a lot of strong beats with a down I Just Jazz Guitar February 2009 Page 93 pick. (to BW) Am I wrong about that? SK: Any further comments, anybody? Anything that BW: Actually, I use alternate picking with more empha - I didn’t address? sis on upstrokes. BW: (points to Gene) He’s the master. GB: Well you get a real great feel. I heard that Barney GB: I would just reiterate what I said. In the process of Kessel played nothing but down strokes, or mostly trying to really learn, it’s important to slow things down. down strokes. I don’t know if it’s true. You slow things down to learn a piece, you slow things BW: Charlie Christian, George Barnes. down to learn about the fingerboard. You learn about MG: Wow! What a touch they had. harmony beyond chord riffs, and things like that. Then GB: The general feeling is that anytime you play just you start to work out pieces because of your back - with the thumb, the feel is better. Look at Wes. ground, having studied classical repertoire. You think, “Why don’t I make up my own classical repertoire?” SK: Is there any particular area of performance, You might do an interpretation of a standard song with such as accompaniment, perhaps, that has been your own special arrangement, your own special colors, influenced by reaching across the genres? so you can present it almost like a classical piece. BW: I accompany with straight four, comping, riffs, inside lines, walking bass lines, stop time, contrapuntal SK: You’ve just described Howard Morgen. figures, laying out…. a tradition that goes back a long GB: He’s been doing it all along. He’s been doing it way. before anybody. MG: For me it carries over into everything – comping, MG: I don’t think you’ll find any player doing jazz improvising, backing up somebody. It’s a whole art these days who is not also interested in playing classi - being an accompanist. What I would like to be able to cal. There are too many advantages. Find me a guy do-someday, is have those moving lines, which for me who’s a good jazz player who doesn’t play classical, and originated in classical repertoire. To be able to lead, step I’ll be surprised. back, being together with the singer. GB: I think guitarists like anything that’s played on a GB: I feel I learned so much about the guitar when I guitar. decided to slow down and learn the fingerboard in a dif - ferent way. Instead of learning scales and positions, I SK: Yeah, we’re like that. started learning the fingerboard as if I were learning GB: We just love the guitar. As Segovia said, “It’s the where all the white keys were. For example, I’d put two only instrument that you caress.” strings together in seconds and thirds. I really learned a lot about the instrument because of the change of tech - SK: I want to thank you guys for your time, and for nique. It was like I was learning the instrument for the sharing the wealth of your knowledge and experi - first time. I couldn’t do anything fast. It was so intellec - ence with JJG readers. tual. I started to really look into what goes into a chord structure: what are the notes, where you find them. The second segment of Part I took place on Discovering that the open B string is the 7 th of C, the August 8, 2008 at the home of the phenomenal Bucky Pizzarelli. Bucky, a true gentleman, is as gracious and 9th of A, the b9 of B flat. Then there are the open string erudite as he is talented. The conversation that took colors that you could get into chords because you’re not place that morning was between Bucky, Mike Gari, and just strumming a chord – you’re thinking about the yours truly. chord structure. It gives you a whole different aspect of the guitar. It is a result of slowing everything down, and SK: Bucky, did you start off playing either jazz or that I really want to know what the hell I’m doing. I classical guitar? would do these exercises where I’d play a C scale start - BP: No. My two uncles were very good players on rd th ing from the 3 , E, then that E became the 6 of a G banjo and guitar. (One of them was a virtuoso mandolin scale, then the 9 th of a D scale. You start seeing things player as well.) The guitar was just being phased in to in a completely different way. You go up in the key of C replace the banjo in bands and orchestras. They both and come back in the key of Db. You get all this intel - realized that they had to get with the guitar, so that’s lectual knowledge, and after a while you need a psychi - what they did. They were always playing at my house atrist. (laughs). on Sundays, and I wanted to join in, so they showed me just the chords to all the songs, so I could sit and strum with them. SK: So you didn’t have an interest in classical guitar MG: That’s a great point. It’s the evolution of the gui - at that time. tar. You want to know how it started with the lute, went BP: No, no, no. That came much later. I was about on to classical, then evolved into all these other styles twenty eight years old when I started to play the classi - that we play. Sure, you want to know what came before. cal guitar. BP: So, you could be playing the guitar for four or five years and be playing the first few chords. If you’re play - SK: When you are playing classical repertoire do use ing classical guitar, you’ll be going up there, all over the a classical guitar? neck right away. And all of a sudden you know where BP: Yes, this one right here. (holds up a guitar made by “that note” is. And that helps your jazz playing. Jose Rubio) SK: The classical approach to harmony is linear, SK: I see that you also have a seven string classical horizontal in nature. Does this hold any beneficial guitar. influence for a jazz player ? BP: My son, John, brought that back from Brazil. The BP: The classical guitar has always been a mystery to maker gave him two guitars, one for me and one for me. And it still is. You’ll hear chords with only two him. notes – not a real chord formation. You play a bass note, add a note somewhere, and you have a beautiful chord. SK: This actually would seem like a good time to You would never play a chord like that. You only play it bring up the matter of scordatura. When you see a because it’s in classical repertoire. And that’s what classical piece for which one is instructed to lower makes it beautiful. the sixth string to D, do you lower that string or sim - ply play the notes on the seventh string? If you do SK: (to Bucky) Throughout this interview you have lower the sixth string how do you treat the seventh? been illustrating your points playing musical exam - BP: If the music tells you to drop that sixth string to D, ples on your guitar. (It’s been a true delight for me, I drop it. I don’t play anything that has a dropped D on and I wish the readers could hear those bits of the seven-string classical. If I did, I would just ignore music.) I’ve noticed that you use a pick instead of the seventh string. your fingers. BP: I do that now. I used to play with my fingers; but I SK: (to Bucky) A few of months ago, when we were lost the use of one finger. It got messed up. So I said to at the West Texas Jazz Society’s jazz party in myself, “Whatever repertoire I have, I could play with a Midland, and I told you that I was doing this article, pick.” you responded as if by reflex. You said, “If you play MG: I’m with you all the way, 100%! I spent so many jazz, you have to play classical.” Would you elabo - years trying to be a real classical player, but it was rate on that now please? impossible. I knew I’d never get up to the level of some BP: You have to start beginners at the classical guitar on of these guys. the six string instrument as standardized by Segovia. Before he did that it was all different tunings. I think it's SK: (to Bucky) The other day I asked Mike, Bill, and very important to know what was being played before Gene if they only play what was composed for the the guitar came into being. The classical guitar is the classical guitar, or are they equally attracted to tran - standard instrument. When you first start you're scriptions of pieces originally written for other playinging on the first three strings and on the first three instruments. Where do you stand? or four frets. And you’re always dying to play some - BP: I stick to what was written for the classical guitar. thing here or something there, (laughing) you just don’t When I performed in a club last night, I played three know how the hell to do it. Classical repertoire puts you pieces. It was without a microphone, in a little saloon. there right away. I showed my daughter some little Everybody kept quiet. I saved all the other stuff for the thing. I put her fingers on the strings, and it was all over jazz guitar. But when I play classical guitar, I try to play the guitar. If you want to play classical guitar, there are the music exactly the way it was written. beautiful little melodies – “Adelita”, and things like that. And you start playing a high note like that. It teach - SK: To clarify my question, Beethoven did not write es you as you learn the repertoire. It’s teaching you specifically for the guitar, but there are guitar tran - where the guitar is, and where you are on the guitar. scriptions of some of his pieces. Are you more I Just Jazz Guitar February 2009 Page 95 attracted to pieces originally composed for the gui - SK: Mike, what about you? tar, or are you equally attracted to transcriptions? MG: I don’t think I would do it; but I sure wouldn’t BP: I go for the ones that were written specifically for condemn it. the guitar. SK: Johnny Smith wrote a wonderful transcription SK: So you wouldn’t touch any of the Beethoven of Debussy’s miniature from the Second Book of transcriptions, for example? Preludes, called “The Girl with the Flaxen Hair.” BP: I dabbled with them, but they didn’t hit me. It’s just Has either of you tried to do something like that? a matter of personal taste. BP: Not really. I tried to do something, but it was too MG: I play Bach difficult and I laid off. I think it was in G flat.

SK: Some of the Bach pieces really don’t have to go SK: Why didn’t you change the key? terribly far to be playable on the guitar. For example BP: A song is written in a certain key for a certain rea - the Prelude for Violin in E Major (Partita Number 3) son. For example, I play “The Bad and the Beautiful” in is the same piece as the Prelude from the Lute Suite the key of A. It was written in the key of A flat. I’ve had in E Major. arrangers come up to me and tell me that I’m supposed MG: It’s very much like jazz, in the way all the har - to play it in A flat. A guy writes a piece in a specific key monies move. for a reason, but it sounds better on the guitar in A.

SK: What do you feel the harmonies have in com - SK: I knew David Raksin, who wrote that score. He mon with jazz? was a really nice guy. I’d like to have gotten his views BP: You could take the harmonies of Bach’s pieces and on the key change. put a chord symbol over each one. You might find a G BP: He didn’t write that many songs, but the ones he did chord with the note B in the bass. That’s exactly what are classics. He was brilliant. you have to know when you’re playing jazz. When you’re backing up a singer, you have to understand what SK: Back to the topic of transposition. Are there any note to put in the bass. mitigating circumstances under which you would write an arrangement in a key other than the origi - SK: Bach was the greatest keyboardist of his era. nal? Most people do not know that during the Baroque, it BP: No, none. No mitigating circumstances. was not unusual for a featured instrumentalist to have a cadenza in which he would take an impro - SK: Bucky, you use a pick when playing the classical vised solo. This was one way in which Bach displayed guitar. Mike, you use a pick plus fingers. How did his skills. Improvisatory solos were written out for you decide on how you would approach right-hand those soloists who could not improvise. technique? BP: (laughing) You called those “play at your own BP: I don’t have full use of the “m” finger. It’s not an risk.” injury – it’s just old age. (laughs)

SK: Exactly. Do you ever take an improvised solo SK: If it were not for the physical decline of that fin - during a classical piece? ger, would you still be using a pick on the classical MG: No! instrument? BP: I might jazz it up. BP: I’d just be using my fingers. I wouldn’t use a pick.

SK: How? SK: How does this affect the element of tone color BP: I can’t really explain it. I’ll do it with the inflection for you? of jazz. Maybe with Villa-Lobos, and stuff like that. Not BP: Well, I made a record; it’s not out yet. In the mid - changing the notes, just the way you milk it. dle of the record I play three pieces. I’m not bragging; I’m just saying, you don’t know if it’s fingers or not. SK: Would you give the eighth notes a dotted eighth- sixteenth feel? SK: I’d like to hear that. And I want to say that if BP: Yeah. anybody deserved the right to brag, you do. I Page 96 Just Jazz Guitar February 2009 BP: (Laughs and makes a dismissive hand gesture as if left hand technique is very different on a classical to say “oh please!”) guitar in a particular circumstance. The composers, who were also virtuoso guitarists, would look, at SK: Did you make a conscious effort to simulate the times, for a certain tone color. This might require a sound of fingers while you were using a pick? melody to be played on one string, as opposed to BP: Yeah, I was well aware of what sound you had to playing it across the strings. Has this had any influ - get when you played with your fingers. The rest stroke ence on the way you approach melody while playing and the free stroke, you have to think of that. All the jazz? time. You’re playing the melody, you have to give it the BP: Yes. Some of the guitar players I’ve worked with rest stroke. approach it this way, and when you do, boy, you’re singing it. You could also describe each string as violin SK: Mike, since you use the pick and the fingernails, range, viola, or cello.That’s what they do with a cello – do you notice a significant difference regarding the the same thing. You want it to sing. A guitar is a percus - color produced by the two different striking materi - sive instrument; the note dies out right away. als? MG: Most of the time the pick is taking the place of the SK: Mike, do you ever find yourself playing a thumb. The only thing I dread is that sometimes I have melody on one string? to use my pinky. Only I wouldn’t be trying to play the MG: Sure, if it goes in that direction. Tarrega tremolo study with my pinky! I just decided that there’s no way I could be playing classical the way I SK: Has your classical experience influenced your should be . So I’m going to play it the way I’m comfort - approach to jazz? able, and the way it’s enjoyable. I’m not going to say BP: I think so. When you’re playing behind a singer, that I’m performing it, or trying to make it sound like for example, sometimes the classical guitar is calling Williams or Bream. I’ll play the piece and love it, and you, saying, “You better do it this way!” (laughs). Tony the sound will be as close as I could get it to what it Mottola and I did play for a couple of opera singers should be. when we were on the “Tonight Show.” I made some BP: If you want to hear a good sound track buy “For records with Dawn Upshaw. I also played Patrice Whom the Bell Tolls.”The guitar is the opposite of a Munsel’s show for a year. I was always aware of the classical guitar, although it’s a gut string guitar. It’s classical even though I played the show on the archtop. plaintive. It’s like he’s playing in an alleyway. No vibra - to – nothing. (picks up a guitar and demonstrates his SK: What would you do if you were playing the arch - point – beautifully) Simplicity! If you want to hear a top and wanted to get a classical-style sound ? Would real soundtrack, buy the movie, it’s available. you tweak the amplifier? BP: When I was playing behind her everything was SK: How has the left hand technique employed for acoustic. I think an electric guitar is ugly when you’re classical guitar influenced you when you are playing playing behind an opera singer. It would be out-of-char - an archtop? acter. BP: When I’m playing a six-string guitar, I’m always thinking of F-G-A and so on right down the line. When SK: What if you’re backing up an opera singer doing I play a jazz guitar (seven string), I’m thinking of a C all a jazz tune or a standard? the way up the board. I think that way. I do it over Eb BP: I recorded with Roberta Peters. She sang an Italian and so forth. On a classical guitar, I’m thinking melodi - song (arranged by Al Cohn). If an opera singer wants to cally. Even on one string sometimes. do a standard or a jazz tune, I use the archtop, unampli - MG: When I’m playing classical guitar, working on a fied. couple of pieces, I’ll go back to the other guitar (the archtop) and I’ll be real strong; really good. SK: Mike, how have you felt the influence? BP: Oh yeah, yeah. MG: The intervals, the colors, the subtleties. I think it MG: You were just going through all the moving lines gets naturally incorporated into my playing. You don’t and all that stuff. It’s like cleansing the palette. want your playing to be all on one level. There’s no bet - ter example than all the different moods and colors you SK: The other day either Bill or Gene said that the get playing classical. As Bucky says, it’s part of the evo - I Just Jazz Guitar February 2009 Page 97 lution of the guitar. You have to look at it, even if you Laurence Wexer, Ltd. don’t spend your life doing it. Fine Fretted Instruments BP: It brings sense to the guitar. And now the kids are all starting on the electric, and forgetting how the Archtop-Electric & Acoustic 1990 Benedetto Tal Farlow style sunburst, Mint, Hard, $8,500.00. An unusual guitar hand - acoustic sounds, even on the archtop. made by Bendetto. Laminate body with Tal Farlow body scroll.Two bartolini humbuckers. MG: Which is more beautiful actually. Cool and one of a kind. (Price Reduced from $9500) 1999 Buscarino Artisan custom Blue, Excellent, Original Hard, $5,500.00. An upgraded ver - BP: That’s right. sion of Buscarino's Artisan model. 16" wide, solid carved guitar with fancy woods ,extra bind - ing, Piezo and Humbucking pickups in a blue finish. Near mint condition. Fine playability. A nice handmade guitar. SK: I’m glad you guys said that because I never let 1996 Campellone Special Custom Blue, Excellent, GigBag, $6,750.00. A unique custom my students start on an electric. If a student starts on Campellone. Ordered in Blue with a triangular sound hole, X bracing, 1 11/16" nut, 24 3/4" scale, 20 1/2 " x 17" body. This guitar is a superior example of this builders work. It is also an electric, he or she won’t learn how to coax a beau - equipped with a vintage DeArmond™ pickup for that real traditional jazz sound.In near mint condition, no issues. An excellent instrument. tiful sound out of a guitar. 1984 D'Aquisto New Yorker Classic 12 String blonde, exc, Original Hard, $40,000.00. A BP: There you go! unique guitar! 16 inches wide, noncutaway body, with an oval sound hole. Maple overlay on headstock, wood binding, and other NY Classic features. I believe this guitar to be the First instrument built with NY Classic features. Blonde finish, beautiful imported maple back, sides, and neck, Macassar ebony pickguard and tailpiece. Great sound. Near mint condition. SK: I think I’ve covered all of today’s questions, so is 1966 Epiphone Howard Roberts blonde, Near Mint, Original Hard, $3,850.00. A super clean there anything either of you would like to add? Epi Howard Roberts, single floating Johnny Smith pickup. All original and perfect setup. Blonde top (label says N). A rare and desireable model. Only some minor checking in the fin - BP: Regarding accompaniment: When you’re backing ish, no issues ior repairs. up a singer you have to look at the lead sheet and learn 1966 Epiphone Triumph custom sunburst, Excellent, Hard, $5,000.00. An unusual Epiphone cutaway guitar! The label says Triumph, but the guitar is a 17" wide cutaway with an oval hole the song the way it was written, and take it from there. and a floating Johnny Smith pickup. It is really more of a larger Howard Roberts. 25 1/2" scale 1 5/8" width nut. A litlle neck wear and some light checking, but no repairs or cracks. These As I said at the beginning, it might just be a third in the were originally ordered by Bob Cavanaugh of E.U. Wurlitzers in Boston. A dozen or so have been made. Bob installed a pickup with his own large pickguard that would accomodate stan - bass, that will get you something beautiful. It's going to dard size pots. Perfect Pro refret by Norio Imai. Plays great and sounds round and full plugged lead to something better. Then you build, and build , and in. 1968 Gibson L-5CESN Blonde, Excellent, Original Hard, $11,500.00. A very nice Sharp cut - build. If you’re not aware of those actions, you’re not away 60s electric L-5. Plays easily, this is a clean guitar. Replica pickguard. Tiny filled strap pin hiole, otherwise all straight. The narrower nut, but not a tiny neck. Very comfortable feel. going to back up the singer properly. You can’t just play Perfect Pro refret by Norio Imai. Effortless to play. Very Blonde. (Price reduced)

chord symbols behind a singer. 1924 Gibson L-5 sunburst, Excellent, Original Hard, $48,000.00. Signed March 31, 1924 Lloyd Loar L-5. Very fine original condition. No cracks, all original hardware and finish. These are quite rare and are Archtop guitars that started it all. These were the first F-hole archtop gui - tar to be produced and have a unique warm tone with amazing bottom end and projection. SK: I want to express my deep appreciation and Spruce top, Birch back, maple sides and neck, varnish finish, Virzi tone producer.

respect to both of you for participating in this article, 1929 Gibson L-5 sunburst , Very Good, Hard, $8,000.00. Fine sounding 16" L-5. "The Gibson" logo, pearl blocks starting at the third fret. The guitar is in structurally excellent shape, and sharing your expertise. Just so the readers know, though it does have a few small repaired back cracks, and one repaired top crack under the pickguard. These are in the dark part of the burst and hard to see. The tailpiece is replaced with throughout this interview Bucky played his classical one from the period. Nice modern feeling neck with a slight V shape. Excellent volume and guitar several times in order to provide musical punch. 1957 Gibson Byrdland sunburst, Excellent, Hard, $8,950.00. A fine sounding and playing 50s examples that would illustrate his statements. I’m Byrdland with Alnico pickups. Pro refret and one small repaired crack near the bridge. Very going to call Ed Benson to suggest he transform JJG attractive guitar with nice curly maple and lovely warm tone. (Price Reduced, was $10.5) 1960 Gibson L-5CESN Blonde, Excellent, Original Hard, $25,500.00. A PAF equipped elec - into an “audio” magazine. tric L-5CESN. Round cutaway, factory stereo varitone. The guitar is well set up and plays beautifully. Vintage tailpiece replaces a bigsby. Part of the lower treble side was pro refinished MG: That would be cool! by Cris Mirabella. An excellent instrument.

BP: Yeah! 1961 Gibson L-5CES sunburst, Excellent, Original Hard, $21,500.00. Fine condition, Excellent plus, sharp cutaway PAF equipped L-5. No repairs. Original factory Stereo varitone. Attractive woods. two piece back. Some light playing wear on the neck, pro refret. A rare and great sounding jazz guitar.(Price Reduced from 24K)

1941 Stromberg Deluxe Blonde, Excellent, Original Hard, $29,500.00. A very rare single transverse braced Blonde Deluxe. The guitar is in fine original condtion with no repairs, except pro refret. Perfect action and wonderful classic jazz tone. Freddie Green!!! Attractive curly maple plus documentation from the family of the original owner.

1949 Stromberg G-3 sunburst, Excellent, Hard, $18,500.00. A rare noncutaway G-3, with sin - gle transverse brace and 17 3/8" body width. Great playability and the classic jazz sound these are known for. Headstock overlay was professionally replaced, but a very clean and fine instru - PLEASE READ ment. 2006 Trenier Magnolia sunburst, Brand New, Hard, $5,000.00. A guitar by a fine young luthi - JJG SHIPPING DATES er. Excellent craftsmanship and sound. X braced oval hole archtop. Engelman spruce top, JJG is usually shipped by the 30th of the month PRIOR to the cover dates. Cover dates European maple back and sides. 1 3/4" nut width 25 1/4" scale length. Fine tone and setup. are November, February, May and August. 2008 Trenier Rosine Blonde, Brand New, $7,000.00. This is a brand new Rosine made in the Please call regarding non–delivery ONLY if you don’t receive an issue by the 30th of D'Aquisto AvantGarde style. This guitar is a fabulous creation that comes amazingly close to the month of the COVER date. capturing the sound and vibe of a real D'Aquisto. Beautiful woods and craftsmanship. Imported It can take up to 4 weeks to reach all subscribers via bulk mail. woods, Art Deco™ headstock, 1 3/4" nut 25 1/2" scale. 18" wide/Big and Blonde. Please check JJG's website or phone for an update on shipping information. If you move and don't notify JJG, your issue 2000 Triggs Custom Orange, Mint, Original Hard, $7,000.00. A beautiful hand made Custom WILL NOT be forwarded. JJG is shipped by Bulk mail and it is not forwarded. It Triggs archtop. Super flamey maple back sides and neck. Johnny Smith style, with a Benedetto floating pickup, 25" scale, 1 3/4" nut width. Effortless to play. A lovely instument. will be thrown out. Phone: 212-532-2994 or 212-696-4701 Fax: 212-696-5384 e mail: [email protected] website: www.wexerguitars.com I Page 98 Just Jazz Guitar February 2009