Fifth Session- Thirty-Sixth Legislature

of the

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba

DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS

Official Report (Hansard)

Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker

Vol. XLIX No. 10- 1:30 p.m., Monday, Apri119, 1999 MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature

Member Constituency Political Affiliation

ASHTON, Steve Thompson N.D.P. BARREIT,Becky Wellington N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUA Y, Louise,Hon. Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin-Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary Concordia N.D.P. DOWNEY,James Arthur-Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Albert Steinbach P.C. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry,Hon. Lakeside P.C. EVANS, Clif Interlake N.D.P. EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East N.D.P. FAURSCHOU, David Portage Ia Prairie P.C. FILMON, Gary,Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen Springfield P.C. FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley N.D.P. GILLESHAMMER, Harold,Hon. Minnedosa P.C. HELWER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. - KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns N.D.P. MALOWAY,Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek P.C. McCRAE, James,Hon. Brandon West P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane Osborne N.D.P. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia P.C. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn St. James N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East P.C. NEWMAN, David, Hon. Riel P.C. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PITURA, Frank,Hon. Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet P.C. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. River Heights P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack, Hon. Niakwa P.C. RENDER, Shirley, Hon. St. Vital P.C. ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Gladstone P.C. SALE, Tim Crescentwood N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Broadway N.D.P. STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. Kirktield Park P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin N.D.P. SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye P.C. TOEWS, Vic, Hon. Rossmere P.C. TWEED, Mervin,Hon. Turtle Mountain P.C. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River N.D.P. Vacant St. Boniface 383

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Monday, April 19, 1999

The House met at 1:30 p.m. going directly fr om this provincial government to the schoolroom and schools has been reduced PRAYERS from $732 million in the '92-93 budget and now stands at $709 million. Over the weekend we ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS heard fr om a number of parents about the INTRODUCTION OF BILLS pressure this was placing on them to fundraise for basics, and this is very consistent with what Bill 12-The Statute Law we are hearing back in our communities, in our Amendment Act, 1999 schools across the province. Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I move, I would like to ask the Premier (Mr. seconded by the Minister of Education (Mr. Filmon): what has been the impact of the actual McCrae), that leave be given to introduce Bill funding cuts to the schools themselves? What 12, The Statute Law Amendment Act, 1999 (Loi has been the impact on volunteers and the kinds de 1999 modifiant diverses dispositions of fundraising activities that they must go legislatives), and that the same be now received through, and how much of that fundraising and read a firsttime. activity is actually going to raise money for basics? Motion agreed to. Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education Introduction of Guests and Training): Madam Speaker, I am glad the Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, honourable Leader of the Opposition has raised would like to draw the attention of all this question. I recently completed consultations honourable members to the public ga llery where with some 600 parents across Manitoba who we have this afternoon twenty-three Grade 5 have expressed their opinions about the students fr om Royal School under the direction education system, and views expressed ranged of Mr . Greg Carpenter. This school is located in fr om the fa ct that parents are doing fundraising the constituency of the honourable First Minister activity, to the fa ct that they are doing none at all (Mr. Filmon). in some school divisions. Interestingly in one of the school divisions where I did hear a complaint Also, eighteen Grades 11 and 12 students about fundraising activities, I looked in the fr om Teulon Collegiate under the direction of statistics and in the records, and the textbook Mr. AI Reinsch. This school is located in the account surplus in that particular school division constituency of the honourable member for is at $400,000. Something is wrong if that is Gimli (Mr. Helwer). happening; it ought not to be happening.

On behalf of all honourable members, I The honourable member raises questions welcome you this afternoon. about the FRAME Report and talks about funding. I just remind the honourable member *(1335) that when he and Mr. Pawley were in charge in Manitoba, funding for education reduced fr om ORAL QUESTION PERIOD 21 percent of total government spending down to 17.7 percent, which we increased to 19.3 Education System percent. Parental Fundraising Activities Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, the minister stated Madam Speaker, according to the government's before that he did not want anybody raising own FRAME documents, the amount of money money for basics like textbooks. He made that 384 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 19, 1999 statement: I take issue with the NDP suggesting not raise money fo r the basics like textbooks, people are fundraising to buy textbooks. It is not their kids do not get textbooks. Would the necessary to do that. Premier agree today to deal with the underresourc ing to the schools over the last fo ur Can the minister explain to Mrs. Debbie or five years and look at the shortfall in Ashdown, a parental council member fr om the textbooks and technology and do something General Vanier School, why her school parents about it, so our kids can have textbooks that are and her fe llow volunteers were required to raise relevant and important to their fu ture? $6,000 fo r that school in 1998 to meet the basic necessities of textbooks fo r their kids? Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, my previous answer stands. I just wonder what parents were Mr. McCrae: If this matter has not already doing back in the days when the honourable been brought to the attention of my office, then I Leader of the Opposition and Howard Pawley can thank the honourable Leader of the were slashing funding fo r schools from 19.3 Opposition fo r doing that. But, as I stated, we percent of budget down to 17.7 percent. That will be happy to look into the circumstances question deserves to be asked too. [interjection] surrounding that particular assertion made by the It dropped fro m 21 percent down to 17.7 percent honourable Leader of the Opposition. of total spending. It has gone up to 19.3 percent since. I think the honourable Leader of the In response to a radio talk show in which Opposition does no service when he sits in his allegation was made that there were people ivory tower and suggests that a Minister of fundraising for textbooks, we issued a public Education and Training has no place in a fo rum request or invitation fo r people to let us know of respecting education and training. Does he want any instances like the one raised by the a balanced discussion out there or not? honourable Leader of the Opposition. We fo und none that had any substance. There was no Education System - response of substance to that. This certainly Parental Fundraising Activities deserves some review, and I will undertake to do that. Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): My question is fo r the Minister of Education. When we It would have been nice if I had had an surveyed parent counc ils this fal l ac ro ss opportunity to debate this with the honourable Manitoba, we heard overwhelmingly about how Leader of the Opposition on Saturday when we much fu ndraising was now required of them would have been able to discuss this and other under the Filmon government. Ninety percent of issues in a balanced way. We also would have our time is spent fu ndraising, said one school had an opportunity, Madam Speaker, to express council, and mostly fo r basic school needs. One our appreciation for the work that teachers do in division alone told us that they were funding our province, but that was denied us by the early success reading programs, speech and Manitoba Teachers' Society. language bags, patrol fu nctions and fo r classroom books. So I would like to ask the * (1340) Minister of Education if he could confirm that this fundraising is a direct result of the clear cuts Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, this whining from in actual millions of dollars to schools that his the minister is unbecoming. It was a Leader's government has made. debate, and you had the option of having your Leader at the debate; you had the option not to. Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education The whining after is very unbecoming. and Training): I certainly would not accept that. I accept very much that the education of I would ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon) this our children is a partnership between school question. The Premier might want to answer this divisions, the government, parents, educators question. The government has said that they do and others. We accept our role in that not want parents to be raising money fo r basics partnership. Last fiscal year we put 2.2 percent like textbooks. Parents are saying that if they do more money into the education budget in April 19, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 385 addition to the year before. This past year, 2.6 to compare notes because the honourable percent, when you include the $2 million-this member is wrong if she suggests that this is a year, Madam Speaker, 2.6 percent when you widespread thing. She is wrong because, other include the $2 million we have added to that than the case that the honourable Leader of the budget for special education. The first response Opposition has brought forward today, which I to the education review, and which we have have undertaken to investigate-the jury is out on heard nothing from the opposition about special that one. education in this province, this government has put down $2 million as its first steps in response Growing Minds Conference to the special education review. In addition, so Premier's Attendance that people can plan, we have announced that there will be a minimum of 2 percent additional Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): My final funding next year. Who knows what it will be question is fo r the Premier, and I wondered if the today, but we know it will not be less than 2 Premier could explain to the House why, with percent. five months notice, he was unable to attend the growing minds conference this weekend to * (1345) speak to parents and teachers and to hear one parent, in despair, say: we are nothing but User Fees/Fundraising Guidelines fundraisers now.

Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Could the Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I think it is minister explain why he has, so far, ignored the unfortunate that the Manitoba teachers' union directions of his ministerial advisory committee chose to play politics with such an important on education to provide, to create, to develop a issue as the education of our children. I recall province-wide approach, province-wide that in the 1995 election campaign there was a guidelines to user fees and to fundraising? Leaders' debate organized by the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce. The Leader of the Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education Opposition chose not to show. He sent in his and Training): Madam Speaker, there has been place Jerry Storie. The organization were polite, leadership in the area of provision of some they were reasonable, and they allowed Mr. guidelines fo r the use of fundraising dollars. We Storie to represent him. do not want the basics to be covered with fundraising dollars. I am a parent, and my children over the years have been involved in Now that is the kind of thing that a various ac tivities, which in my opinion, do not nonpartisan organization does. If the teachers' form the basic part of their education. I and my union is interested only in partisan actions, then neighbours, like the Leader of the Opposition obviously we know where they stand on the (Mr. Doer), who claims to have eaten too many issues. It is a very hard-line partisan position. chocolate bars, have been involved in those That is not the sort of thing about which you things too, as have committed parents engender good democratic debate. throughout Manitoba. The honourable member seems to suggest that there is no room whatever Gaming Facilities fo r any kind of activity like that, and I do not Expansion Funding agree with that. Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): My But I have made it very clear the way this question is to the Minister responsible fo r government fe els about the basics in education. Lotteries. To the Minister responsible fo r When we have some school divisions that allow Lotteries, who was the previous Health minister no fundraising whatsoever and manage to and could not find enough money to build educate the children with the dollars that are needed personal care homes and other health available from the province and from their fac ilities, I would like to ask how it is he finds so municipal taxpayers, I welcome an opportunity much money to make these massive, expansive to discuss this with the honourable member and casinos both at Regent andMcPhillips. 386 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 19, 1999

Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister charged with *(1 350) the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, I am very Renovation Expenditures glad that colleagues opposite at least acknowledge the massive investment in health Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): My care that this administration is making in question to the Minister responsible fo r constructing over 600 additional personal care Lotteries: will he provide a full cost statement, home beds. The member has been in this House including the cost of renovations which we since 1995, and I am sure in the course of those understand exceeds $20 million for the Crystal fo ur years she would have had opportunity to at Ca'iino and Club Regent? What is the price tag least learn, as we all have learned, about how fo r renovations in addition to the additions? these are funded. The Lotteries Corporation is an independent organization, finances its capital Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister charged with construction, not out of tax dollars, not out of the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries public money, but out of its own revenue, and it Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, I would be returns to the province, in essence, a dividend on delighted in the normal course of business ofthis its profits. House, when these matters are discussed, to ensure that the Lotteries Corporation provides all members with a fu ll accounting, as they do Expansion Expenditures regularly on an annual basis in this Assembly. She will have the opportunity to question them, Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam but I can tell the member, as members opposite Speaker, my second question to the Minister usually are, we are not expanding or renovating responsible fo r Lotteries: recently, approxi­ the Crystal Casino. We are closing it. mately two months ago, Manitobans fo und out cost overruns at that time were $16 million. Health Care Facilities - Will the Minister responsible fo r Lotteries Capital Projects-Community Contribution indicate what the price tag is today? Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister charged with Speaker, it is ironic that the overruns fo r the the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries expansion of the Regent and the casino on Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, it is McPhillips are relatively significant, and I interesting. I think this question was answered suppose the minister, like me, got a copy of a extensively several months ago when members letter from Building fo r the Future from the opposite attempted to make an issue of this cancer care fo undation of Manitoba who are particular area. If I remember correctly, the trying to raise their $19 million so they can issue arose, estimated price versus what tenders contribute that to the cancer centre that was came out on. Yes, there was a difference promised in '95, '96, '97, has had at least three between what the cost estimates were on those sod turnings in the last year. projects and what the tendered prices were. That is not a cost overrun. Those projects were being My question to the Minister of Health, who done on a tendered basis with contractual prices. announced the capital plans on Friday: are all of the capital announcements on Friday going to Madam Speaker, it is very interesting require the 20 percent of the public or the because the members today may try to make a municipality or the individuals to have to raise linkage that does not exist; the members the money before those projects can proceed? opposite may somehow imply that Manitoba Lotteries, in trying to redevelop these two Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): casinos to ensure that we continue to have Madam Speaker, the community contribution hundreds upon hundreds of tour buses come into policy, as the member opposite knows, is our province-at the same time, the same certainly nothing new in the province of - members opposite have come up with ways to Manitoba. There has been one in place fo r spend every one of those dollars 10 times over. many, many decades. There used to be a cash April l9, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 387 contribution requirement of as much as 50 for facilities. I believe that the majority, if not percent. More recently it was a matter where all, of those do not require a community communities and organizations were contribution. contr ibuting the land and other contributions towards change orders. The contribution policy * (1355) pertains to major capital projects, so some of the projects will require a community contr ibution Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, the minister, I policy and some will not. believe, indicated that those capital purchases of the equipment would not require a contribution, and I hope that in fact holds tr ue. I should remind the member opposite that an adjustment made to the community contribution policy also gives the communities the My final supplementary to the minister is: opportunity to make their contribution up fr ont, can the minister indicate, if those communities and if they do that, it then becomes 10 percent of cannot raise their 20 percent that the government the cost. That compares to a province like has imposed as of two years ago and required Saskatchewan that has a community contribution them to raise, will that then mean the projects requirement of, I believe, 35 percent. British will be on hold like the cancer institute, the Columbia, I believe, is 40 percent, and other cancer expansion where they ar e desperately provinces have contributions. seeking additional funds-[interjection] Well, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) says it is going ahead. They require an extra- I am certainly prepared to provide that information to the member for Kildonan as well, Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker . Madam Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Chomiak: My supplementary question to the Minister of Health: since the government Mr. Chomiak: Can the minister indicate introduced this policy of 20 percent a couple of whether those projects will go ahead if under years ago, I am wondering-the announcement circumstances the communities cannot raise the the minister made on Friday indicated that there 20 percent the government has now imposed on was going to be a major announcement about them? capital equipment purchase. My question to the minister : will this community or the public Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, I am a little having to pay user fe es, a 20 percent bit confused by the question because all the contribution, apply to the capital equipment that member for Kildonan has to do is go by the site the minister is going to be announcing in the and see that the Manitoba Cancer Research and short period of the next little while? Are they Treatment facility is under construction. The going to extend it to the equipment that we need provincial government is making a very for cancer and for heart surgery? significant contribution, as is the fo undation itself making a contribution, and that is exactly a Mr. Stefanson: Well, Madam Speaker, again, I good case of the kinds of partnerships that are do not think I need to remind the member that put in place across Manitoba to see the facility there has been a community contribution policy improvements that we ar e seeing right in place for many years under all types of throughout Manitoba. governments in the province of Manitoba. We certainly have examples in NDP Saskatchewan, NDP British Columbia of significant community I should indicate to the member opposite contribution policies which ar e much higher than certainly to date with the introduction of our the province of Manitoba. I indicated as part of community contribution policy, which can be 10 the announcement that the member for Kildonan percent ifthe organizations can do it at the front attended on Friday with the capital projects that end-and most organizations are attempting to do we would be very shortly coming forward with just that, so they ar e doing it on the basis of 10 our announcement on equipment contributions percent-it is working very well. We ar e having 388 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 19, 1999 examples of facilities like the Boundary Trails discussions and then eventually with entering hospital under construction right now in into the agreement. This has absolutely nothing Morden-Winkler. to do with privatization. I have already said publicly that I would commit that we would not Again, would suggest that the privatize the Manitoba Hydro. fon nalization of that policy so everybody knows the rules is something that is very positive to *(1400) communities, to organizations so they know what role they play. By having the community Mr. Lamoureux: I am sure the Premier will involved, Madam Speaker, we end up with the understand why Manitobans as a whole do not best possible health care facilities we can necessarily trust that particular argument that possibly have. they wiii not privatize Manitoba Telephone System. Manitoba Hydro Privatization My question very specific to the minister was: can the Premier indicate to this House if Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam indeed Manitoba Hydro will be privatized in the Speaker, my question is for the Premier. The same manner that MTS was privatized, given government commits in excess of a half billion that the rationale that has been used to date has dollars in tenns of acquiring Centra Gas, and not given the justification in tenns of the what has become very clear is the government acquisition of Centra Gas? We want to make does not have any plan, as clearly demonstrated sure that there is no hidden agenda here in the in the answers that we received last week, as long tenn to sell off Manitoba Hydro. clearly demonstrated in the lack of appearance in any fashion through the government's throne Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question speech. has been put. My question to the Premier is: how can the Mr. Filmon: I can assure the member there is Premier assure us that the purchase of Centra no agenda to sell off Manitoba Hydro. I can also Gas is not simply the first step in preparing say to him that he, of course, is getting Manitoba Hydro for the public auction block? entrenched in the same kind of narrow-minded, ignorant thinking that is shared by the members Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam that he sits next to, the New Democratic Party, in Speaker, rather than just simply make this a which they, fo r blind ideology, automatically political fo otball, I think the member opposite assume that if it is publicly owned it is good, if it would be well advised to take a look at the is privately owned it is bad. That, of course, economics of the transaction. The fact of the absolutely totally ignores the reality of the matter is that this kind of convergence of marketplace. He would do well to investigate different types of energy is taking place not only the economics of the transaction as opposed to in the United States but in Canada, where Gaz joining the New Democrats and just simply metropolitain has been bought, or an interest in proceeding based on blind ideology. it, by Hydro Quebec, where places throughout the United States have had the converged utility. Pacific Gas and Electric has been a converged All-Party Resolution utility for more than a decade, to my knowledge. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Given the These are ways in which the utility can comments of the Premier then, if he wants to become stronger and more efficient. That is attempt to depoliticize this particular issue, will what we want of Manitoba Hydro. Manitoba the Premier then agree to passage of an all-party Hydro is a monopoly provider of electrical resolution in favour of Manitoba retaining public services in Manitoba, and it will be strengthened ownership of Manitoba Hydro? Why would he - by this transaction. That is the basis on which oppose passing a resolution of that nature? Will we authorized their proceeding firstly with the he stand in his place and agree to pass it? April l9, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 389

Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question requirements of the Swan River Hospital, and if has been put. additional resources are required as the year unfolds, depending on what the timing is of the Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam facility, either renovations or the new facility, Speaker, I am already on the record as saying they will be provided. that we will not privatize Manitoba Hydro. It may serve the political gamesmanship of the Capital Projects-Community Contribution member fo r Inkster to pursue those kinds of things; I am telling him the facts. Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): I would like to let the minister know that people would Swan River Hospital have been much more happy to see a Capital Projects-Funding commitment to funding here, and there is no commitment. Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): When we heard the announcement of capital funding Madam Speaker: Order, please. The on hospitals on Friday, I fu lly expected that this honourable member was recognized for a government was going to announce that there supplementary question to which no preamble is was going to be funding for a new hospital in required. Swan River because the hospital in Swan River has been closed because of a mould problem. Ms. Wowchuk: Thank you, Madam Speaker. However, I was shocked to learn that all the Given that there is no commitment out of this government promised was funding will be budget for capital funding, I would like to ask available to begin the design and replacement on the minister if he will recognize that the people renovations at the Swan River Hospital. of Swan River have not requested a new facility. This renovation is going to have to take place I would like to ask the minister: does this because of neglect of the government. mean that he has no intention of rebuilding that facility in this year, that all he is going to do is Will he guarantee that they will not have to do a design on the replacement? No plans to put up the 20 percent penalty because of their build a new hospital. neglect, when this facility is built?

Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Certainly we have been keeping the member for Well, Madam Speaker, there was no neglect on Swan River informed of what is taking place at the part of this provincial government, and I Swan River with the hospital. We are awaiting a think it is unfortunate to even try to point to final report to determine whether or not the neglect on the part of anybody, the people existing facility can be maintained through administering or running that hospital or major renovations and/or whether a completely whomever. new facility will be required. The expectation is that at this stage it appears most likely it will be This is a situation of mould being found in a new facility, but we are waiting fo r that final the facility. We have acted immediately to deal report. Certainly she would understand that the with the well-being of the people in that health first steps, in terms of the development of a new care facility to provide alternative health care facility, are the assessment of the kind of facility arrangements to make sure that they do not incur that can best meet the needs of Swan River and any financial costs as a result of that. The the catchment area of that facility, be exactly the government is picking up those costs. We have type of facility that can meet those needs today acted quickly to do the review of the kind of and into the future and to start moving fo rward facility that is required in that community, and with the design stage fo r that project. we have dedicated resources in this budget to move fo rward with either a complete renovation Those are the first two steps. Money is set of the existing facility or ultimately a new aside fo r those very important aspects of the fac ility. 390 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April l9, 1999

I did indicate in response to a previous trend is being reversed, that there are more question that, while it is important that the people coming back to Manitoba to fill some of community contribution policy apply in this these jobs. With the construction seasonupon us case, because of the fact that this project did and the tremendous construction you are going arise on the basis of not much advanced to see in Manitoba this year in the hospital sector planning-obviously, because of the situation of and other sectors, I believe you are going to see mould being fo und-that we were prepared and real growth in the Manitoba population this year. are prepared to sit down with the hospital board, with the regional health authority to discuss the * (1410) whole issue of the timing of their community contribution. Mr. L. Evans: Madam Speaker, will this mmtster acknowledge that one reason our Population Growth population growth has been so insignificant is Provincial Decline that we have lost over 67,000 people since this government assumed office in 1988? In fa ct, in Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam that period of time, our average is well over Speaker, this government should be very 6,000 people a year, which is equivalent to concerned that, since it assumed office in 1988, losing a town the size of The Pas every year of the population growth of this province has not the 11 years that this government has been in kept pace with that of the Canadian nation. In office. fact, our population growth has been almost nonexistent. As a result, in 1988 we were 4. 1 So my question is: why, if our economy is percent of the Canadian population, but by the supposed to be so great as the minister has just end of 1998 we had dropped to 3.7 percent. This been pointing out, so buoyant, are we continuing is a significant decline and has an impact on to lose thousands of people to other provinces? federal transfer payments, among other things. Mr. Gilleshammer: Madam Speaker, the I would like to ask the Minister of Finance: member fo r Brandon East does not seem to why is Manitoba not growing as fast as the rest accept that the economy is doing well. I would of the country, given the fact that we are urge him to look at some of the economic supposed to have such a buoyant economy? indicators that are in existence. In fact, along Why are we shrinking as a percentage of the with fo ur or five colleagues, I attended the total Canadian population? Brandon Chamber of Commerce's annual meeting a fe w weeks ago, and I can tell you Don. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of there were 500 or 600 people there fr om the Finance): Madam Speaker, again, the member Brandon area celebrating the growth in the fo r Brandon East looks on the dark side of so economy ofBrandon, the number of jobs that are many things. I think what he should be fo cusing being created and the fa ct that the economy there on is the tremendous growth in the economy of is very buoyant. Manitoba where the real gross domestic product grew by 3.4 percent last year, where we have Mr. L. Evans: Madam Speaker, I wonder if the more full-time employment in this province than minister can explain to the people of Manitoba we have ever had before-in fact, there was a why we continue to lose people to the province creation of I 0,000 new full-time jobs-and where of Saskatchewan. Some years ago the tradition our unemployment rate has now reached 5.4 was people fr om Saskatchewan would come in percent, the lowest unemployment rate across droves to Manitoba. In the last fe w years we the country. In fact, along with that, we have the have lost 2,300 people in the last fo ur years lowest youth unemployment rate across the alone, and last year we lost between 900 and country as well. 1,000 people. Why, if our economy is so great and so buoyant as the minister explains, have we

There are significant signs, with the growth reversed the trend of being a net recipient from - in the economy, with the shortage of about 5,000 Saskatchewan to becoming a net exporter of jobs going wanting in our province, that this people to our sister province of Saskatchewan? April 19, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 391

Mr. Gilleshammer: Madam Speaker, as I have Mrs. Mcintosh: The short answer, Madam indicated to the member, with the low Speaker, is yes, and the member himself I think unemployment rate here in Manitoba and the has-I am pleased to see that he is finally asking creation of thousands and thousands of jobs, I some questions of the Minister of Environment. think you are going to see a change in those I was beginning to think he might go through the trends. In fac t, in the province of British session without any. Particularly when our Columbia at this time there are signs that many record is so good in this area, I was quite people are leaving that province to accept jobs confident there would not be any questions here on the prairies. forthcoming.

Manitoba is one of the few provinces that Household Hazardous Waste Program does fund programs of this nature out of general Status Report revenue and it is difficult-the Leader of the Opposition would leave it to God to save the Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Madam Earth, he has just indicated fr om his chair. God Speaker, my questions are fo r the Minister of is a good one to rely upon, but human beings, I Environment. As Manitobans are doing their think, have an obligation to help as well. If the spring cleaning, they are collecting household NDP philosophy is that they leave all of this in hazardous wastes, paints, solvents, batteries and the hands of God, then they are indicating their so on. As well, municipalities are anxious to lack of commitment to participate with what is provide collection depots fo r this waste. happening in the world. However, they are uncertain what they should do with these wastes as this minister has yet to Collection Depots make an announcement regarding this program this year. Will the minister update this House Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): My final and Manitobans as to the status of the Household question to the minister is: how many collection Hazardous Waste Program fo r this fiscal year? depots are to be held in rural and northern Manitoba this year? Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Environment): Madam Speaker, Manitoba's Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of record of programming in this area is Environment): Madam Speaker, I thank the outstanding in Canada, recognized as that member for Selkirk for his question. I cannot throughout the country. As a matter of fac t, the give him the exact number of locations. I can working committee on household hazardous tell him there has been a record, in terms of wastes was meeting here in the building, met pesticides, in terms of used oil, in terms of a with them myself about 11 :30 this morning. wide variety of hazardous goods, both household They continue to begin bringing fo rward and industrial and farm, that is outstanding in recommendations fo r the minister. Canada. He knows that. I will be pleased to bring him specific figures. I will do, so that he Madam Speaker, we have- can look fo r himself at the percentages that we have in collectibles compared to other provinces, Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. and the outstanding record that has begun under this administration, under my predecessor and Madam Speaker: Order, please. other ministers of Environment that sadly was not in place when the NDP were in power, Mrs. Mcintosh: When they are ready to listen, programs started by this government, programs Madam Speaker, I will- started by the Filmon government in co­ operation with citizens of Manitoba fo r a record Mr. Dewar: Madam Speaker, what are that is outstanding. I will bring the data to him Manitobans to do with the more than 200,000 because he does not know it. kilograms that are collected each year by this program? Is there a program this year, yes or Madam Speaker: Order, please. Time for Oral no? Questions has expired. 392 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 19, 1999

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS I am very pleased to find that two organizations in the Gimli constituency were Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam chosen to receive grants fo r their project Speaker, I understand that there may be a will to proposals. The Teulon and District Seniors give leave to the introduction fo r first reading of Resource Centre has received funding to help a bill. provide a caregivers workshop. This is being held today for families, spouses and others who Madam Speaker: Is there leave to revert back have direct-care responsibilities. The resource to Introduction of Bills under Routine centre hopes that a self-help group for caregivers Proceedings? [agreed] will develop out of this workshop where they can come together to share their experiences and Leave has been granted. find support.

Mr. Filmon: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The Interlake Seniors Resource Council also received a grant fo r this project entitled Discovering Our Gifts. The goal is to provide a Bill17-The Elections Amendment and fo rum where seniors and youth can discover Elections Finances Amendment Act each others' gifts and talents and plan together ways of using these gifts to build healthier Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I move, communities. Both groups have developed seconded by the honourable Minister of Health quality events that will have lasting benefits for (Mr. Stefanson), that leave be given to introduce their communities. So I applaud the efforts of Bill 17, The Elections Amendment and Elections all those involved in the Interlake seniors Finances Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi resource council and also the Teulon Seniors electorale et Ia Loi sur le financement des Resource Council who do excellent work year­ campagnes electorales, and that the same be now round fo r Manitoba seniors. Thank you, Madam - received and read a first time. Speaker.

His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, having Manitoba Book Week been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. Madam Speaker, I Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam would like to table the message fr om His Speaker, today I am pleased to recommend to Honour with the bill. the House Manitoba Book Week, April 18 to 24, culminating on Saturday, April 24 in the Motion agreed to. Manitoba book awards. This week is a time fo r us all to consider the importance of writing, MEMBERS' STATEMENTS publishing and book selling to our economy and the importance of the literary arts to our public International Year of Older Persons and personal lives. Members, I know, will join me in gratefully acknowledging our literary Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): As I am sure all community's economic contribution. the members of this House are aware, 1999 has been designated International Year of Older The role the literary arts occupy in our lives Persons. In this province, the theme is and culture is more subtle, but to my mind well Manitoba: A Province fo r All Ages, which spoken by William Carlos Williams who wrote: encourages an intergenerational approach in poetry is a rival government, always in celebrating the contributions of seniors to the opposition to its cruder replicas. The rival growth and development of our province. To governments or visions of Manitoba writers help promote the recognition of the International range from Ralph Connor's moral writings or Year of Older Persons, our government social gospels to Margaret Laurence's established a grant program to help support compelling humanism, to Gabrielle Roy's celebration activities, seminars and conferences compassion, to Carol Shields' experimental and other projects around Manitoba. dexterity and imaginative understanding, to April l9, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 393

Patrick Friesen's incisive but always sympathetic game Friday evening. Please join all hockey voice. fa ns and me in congratulating owner Mark Chipman and coach Randy Carlyle and the entire * (1420) Manitoba Moose hockey organization on a record season and wish them well in their fight The people here cited are mere examples, fo r the TurnerCup. names of writers engaged with the questions of craft identity and values, writers who speak to us When we talk hockey, a name that is of the way we are, life in our times and in our synonymous is Wayne Gretzky, No. 99. Here is place. My time today does not allow me to a hockey legend that would need a lot more time mention a new and younger generation of poets, for me to speak on than I am allotted, but I am novelists and playwrights, some of whom will be sure every member in this Chamber would join honoured on April 24. All deserve our respect. me in extending our thanks to Wayne Gretzky Even if we do not know their names, or all their for 20 marvellous years and our heartfelt names, I believe their words are with us, shaping congratulations to him on his retirement. Thank our thinking, deepening our compassion, teasing you, Madam Speaker. our imaginations, showing us truth and always developing. Again I quote: a rival government Growing Minds Conference in opposition to its cruder replicas. Ms. Jean· Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, Manitoba Moose Hockey Club I would like to congratulate the organizing committee of the conference held on the Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): weekend: growing minds. Hundreds of would like to congratulate the Manitoba Moose Manitoba teachers and parents, trustees and even Hockey Club on their most successful season in municipal councillors attended and heard a wide the International Hockey League. The Manitoba ra nge of papers. We heard from trustees from Moose ended their regular season Saturday night Winnipeg as well as from Calgary. We heard at the Winnipeg Arena in front of a sold-out fr om international figures fa miliar with crowd of 10,842. The Moose fa ns were on their education in the United Kingdom, in New fe et for the 4-1 season-ending victory over the Zealand and the United States. We listened to defending Turner Cup champions, the Chicago journalists, to educators, to authors and to Wolves. The Moose finished their year fo urth students in a series of what I would congratulate overall with an outstanding 4 7-21-14 record. the organizers on as a series of very well­ The Moose recorded 108 points which makes prepared presentations and debates. them the most winning professional hockey team in Manitoba history, recording more points in This wa s one of those conferences that had a one season than the Winnipeg Jets of the World buzz, a sense of enthusiasm of open debate and Hockey Association or the Winnipeg Jets of the common purpose in support of public education. National Hockey League. It was, I believe, the Premier's loss that after five months he chose not to attend for even the The Manitoba Moose announced their Saturday portion fo r which he was invited, but it annual year-end awards. The awards are as is all our loss, Madam Speaker, that after 11 fo llows: the most valuable player, number 27, years we have a government which chooses not Bill Bowler; the best defenceman, number 2, to allow its Leader to fa ce the public in open Brett Hauer; the unsung hero, number 23, Jeff discussion about public education. Parrot; the community service award, number 4, Michael Stewart; the most points fo r three-star Wilbert Funk selection, Scott Thomas; and leading scorer, number 27, Bill Bowler. Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Madam Speaker, it is certainly my pleasure today to rise before The Manitoba Moose begin their playoff this House and congratulate Wilbert Funk-we quest against the Milwaukee Admirals this call him Big Red-of Altona who was presented Wednesday in Milwaukee and return home fo r a with the 1999 Altona District Chamber of 394 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 19, 1999

Commerce Citizen of the Year A ward at their could please ca ll Bill 2, The Electoral Divisions annual dinner on Saturday. Amendment Act. For information of the House, I think throughout the next fe w days there will Mr. Funk was chosen to receive this honour probably be some announcements around a fo r his outstanding contribution in working with committee, et cetera, as House leaders work out young people. Mr. Funk was a hockey player, a the details. player in his own right. He, however, excelled in taking upon himself the ta sk of bringing SECOND READINGS together young people who were very often not very capable and teaching them how to play Bill 2-The Electoral Divisions hockey. Amendment Act

One of the key things that Mr. Funk and his Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Madam wife-and he always ca lled her Precious. He Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable said: we have to go out and win one for Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Cummings), Precious today, boys. I wa s one of the young that Bill 2, The Electoral Divisions Amendment fe llows who Wilbert coached when I was much Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur les circonscriptions younger than I am today. But he always used electorales, be now read a second time and be the theme that if you are going to play well, you referred to a committee ofthis House. are going to become the kind of citizen that you really want to be, or, he said, do you want to be Motion presented. one of those? That was his motto. Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I am pleased to An Honourable Member: He was pointing at bring fo rward fo r consideration of this House you, Steve. Bill 2, The Electoral Divisions Amendment Act. This is a bill that has generated considerable Mr. Penner: No, I am not pointing at anybody speculation and discussion not only within the in this House, but he always sa id: or do you media and the wider community but also within want to be one of those? I say to you that Mr. this House. Members opposite from the Liberal Funk coached better than a thousand games Party, I know, had asked to bring it fo rward for played by young people in his community. He dealing with sooner, but this is the earliest time not only coached hockey, but he also umpired that the rules permit, without leave, to be able to and coached ba seball. He coached and umpired deal with it. I am happy that we are able to do between 900 and a thousand ga mes of baseball. so today.

The interesting thing, Madam Speaker-and I In 1955 Manitoba adopted the process of wish you would let me finish-is Mr. Funk lost ensuring that our electoral divisions are his right arm in 1973 in an industrial accident. established in an open and nonpartisan fa shion. Did that stop him fr om being involved with This is the fifth time since the establishment of these young people? He said no, and he would the Electoral Boundaries Commission and the ra ise his right arm without a hand and he sa id: second time fo r me as Premier that a government let us go out there and win; let us play one for has presented a bill implementing their Precious, and that is why Mr. Funk wa s chosen recommendations. As members opposite know, as Citizen of the Year today by the Altona the intent of the Electoral Boundaries Chamber of Commerce. I would like all of us to Commission is that it should not only be as congratulate him. representative in terms of the quality of people who are on the commission, but also it should be ORDERS OF THE DAY seen to be as completely nonpartisan as possible, and I believe indeed that we can say that of this House Business comm1ss1on. It is made up by statute of the

Chief Justice of the Court of Appeal, the - Hon. Darren Praznik (Government House Honourable Richard Scott, the chief electoral Leader): Madam Speaker, I would ask if you officer, Mr. Richard Balasko, and the president April 19, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 395 the University of Manitoba, Dr. Emoke implemented by this particular act, I would say Szathmary. that these boundary changes are probably as even-handed and balanced as they can be, given The commissioners, over the course of that they are the subject and decisions of humans seven public meetings held in Thompson, who have to try and balance the advice of many Dauphin, The Pas, Portage Ia Prairie, Steinbach, different people and many different concerns. Brandon and Winnipeg, heard 61 presentations. When I look at it from a perspective of party In addition, the commission received 140 written politics, I say that the boundaries probably do representations from individuals and not work particularly in the fa vour of any party organizations fr om across our province. I want in this House. I know that when the original to begin by commending the commissioners for proposal was put forward in June, many people their work, and as it did in the last report, the suggested that it would have a very significant, commission has provided not only a set of new positive impact on our side of the House. I boundaries but a number of thoughtful believe that the commissioners took note of that, observations fo r potential future implementation and in re-forming the boundaries, probably did by our Legislature. It is important that we not so in such a way as to remove that advantage only review those observations presented in this from this side of the House. I do not object to report, but review and see how we can make that, Madam Speaker. I think that the job of the modifications to this open process, which is commission is a very difficult one, and I believe considered to be a first-rate process by people that they want to continue the reputation of the right across our country. commission as being absolutely nonpartisan, absolutely balanced and even-handed in every Last time I introduced a similar bill, I spoke respect. I believe that they succeeded as much about the need to understand the unique and as any group of human beings could be expected difficult challenges which fa ce our rural and to in striking that balance. northern members, more so than those shared by our urban members. That was a topic of I think it is important because we have had considerable discussion before the commission, comments in this House in recent times, maybe and I believe that the commission struggled very from the member fo r Brandon East (Mr. L. diligently to attempt to bridge those competing Evans), the member fo r Dauphin (Mr. Struthers), interests and concerns that impact more on rura l about erosion of populations in rural and northern representatives. I know that the communities. I think that this particular commission as well very definitely took note of reconstruction of the electoral boundaries speaks many of the changes that we have made in terms more strongly than anything that I have seen to of supports to our elected members in this House the fa ct that there has been a better stabilization to try and make the task a little easier for rural and indeed growth of rural populations than we and northern members to represent their have seen in perhaps the last century in this constituents. province. Indeed, every previous change in boundaries by the Electoral Boundaries * (1430) Commission created a circumstance in which there were fewer rural and northern seats and We must continue to work at ensuring that more city of Winnipeg seats. This is the first all of these challenges are dealt with on a timely time, I believe, this century in which that has not and effective basis. My government will review occurred. It has not occurred because there has all of the information provided by the been tremendous growth and stability in the commission and will work with the members of economy of rural Manitoba. this House in a spirit of nonpartisanship to try and strengthen the longstanding process which There certainly have still been shifts within we have, which we are proud of and which I rural Manitoba. There certainly has continued to believe all Manitobans fe el secure in. be some communities that, fo r a whole variety of local rea sons, have continued to shrink and even Just in addressing some of the finer details disappear. But, overall, the population of rural of the electoral boundaries which will be Manitoba has stabilized for the first time this 396 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 19, 1999 century, which I happen to think is a good thing. commission that has done its best to reflect the I do not think that it benefits anyone to have changes of Manitoba's population and to tum tremendously increa sing concentrations of that into boundaries and an act that will fa irly population and then va st areas of shrinking and equitably reflect the interests of all wa steland. The more we can distribute the Manitobans, and I urge everyone to vote fo r the population and the economic activity in our passage of this legislation. province, the healthier our province will be. I certainly believe that a healthy Manitoba needs a Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): healthy northern population, needs a healthy too would like to thank the commission rural population, and it needs, obviously, healthy members fo r their work. We have always cities and towns. So, in that respect, I think that supported an independent boundary commission it has been a good exercise at relooking at system fo r Manitoba. It is a system that allows ourselves and seeing what the impacts are of the us to adjust populations on a timely basis, and it changes that have been made in recent times. has obviously over the years since Douglas Campbell, I believe, introduced this legislation Among those things, I think we have to and concept allowed various parties to fo rm speak to decentralization, decentralization of government. The Liberals were replaced by the government activity having had some impact on Duff Roblin government in the late '50s, and the the stabilization and revitalization of various Weir government wa s replaced by the Schreyer areas in rural Manitoba. We have to look at government, the Lyon government, the Pawley diversification of our agriculture industry, which governmentand now the Filmon government. is now more diversified than it has ever been in its history, and more value-adding taking place * (1440) before we ship our agricultura l products elsewhere. We have had a belief and a practice that politicians in this Chamber do not set the I knowthat, Madam Speaker, we can always boundaries fo r politicians to be elected or re­ look at this from different perspectives. From a elected, that it is somebody outside of the party perspective, I will say that our party political process that sets those boundaries. This intends to support this legislation because we of course sets Manitoba apart from other believe in the nonpartisan balanced approach to jurisdictions over the years. We think the electoral boundaries review that it represents, statutory provisions in the act are superior to the and we accept, whether we agree with all of the government of the day establishing boundaries details of the report and the act, the process as and picking individuals like the fe deral system. producing as much as possible a nonpartisan There are still individuals that are picked rather outcome. There will always be those who will than positions picked in the act, and many ta lk about, with perhaps some valid rea son, that provinces have the same fo rmat still where you will lament the disappearance of some well­ do not have statutory positions but you ra ther known names fr om the electoral map, ones like have individuals. Sturgeon Creek and Osborne and Gladstone that have been a part of the electoral map fo r a long, This country is fu ll of examples where in the long time. past-and I think Grace McCarthy was one example that wa s always ra ised in Point Grey of I recall in the last change that the member British Columbia. They used to have a very for Fort Rouge at that time spoke about his vivid description of these polls that were an disappointment at the disappearance of Fort angular poll, numbers of polls into a certa in area Rouge and now it is back. So names are chosen that were always chosen to be part of that old to reflect differing circumstances, and at the Socred seat established by the Socred party, that same time I think the commission always that in fa ct wa s a partisan way of setting attempts to reflect the history and reflect the boundaries. Even as late as 20 years ago in that changes that have been taking place in the province, in fa ct right up to the 1991 British ensuing decade that has led to this new map. For Columbia election, you still had boundaries my part, I accept it as the work of an eminent established by the government of the day often April 19, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 397 argued fo r the benefit of the government of the of 1998, and all of a su dden it was, oops, we are day in a majority of the governmentof the day in not so sure anymore; I cannot commit ourselves the B.C. Legislature. to running on the old boundaries or the new boundaries or whatever; I am not making any So certainly we prefer a statutory law, and commitment whatsoever. we have dealt with this law before. I know the member for Brandon East (Mr. L. Evans) has Through the media to the government, we probably dealt with it certainly in the '70s and said bring the Legislature back in January; bring the '80s. I am sure the member for Lakeside the Legislature back in February; bring the (Mr. Enns) has dealt with it in the '60s, '70s, and Legislature back in March. The Legislature was '80s. So as we proceed into the '90s, this is only only adjourned, Madam Speaker; it had not been my second time of dealing with it, but I do know prorogued, and in that way, if we were really that the principle of independent boundaries is a committed to the independent Boundaries good one and any Legislature that has the Commission, then we could have passed those majority establish the boundaries in the long ru n boundaries in those three months. Those of us is asking fo r a practice that works against the who were trying to guess what boundaries would best wishes of the people. be in place would therefore be playing on the same level democratic field as the Premier (Mr. I want to thank, as I say, the individual Filmon), and really then we would have an commission members, but, Madam Speaker, I independent boundary process and an think we have not gone fo rward with many of independent boundary process transition. the suggestions that have been made in the past on boundaries. Let me deal with a couple of For us, Madam Speaker, with 23 incumbent points that I think have caused us a great deal of seats, I dare say that this is a much bigger difficulty. Number one is when do these challenge than it might be fo r other opposition boundaries take effect? We believe and we said parties, because we have much more to deal with to the commission and we know in Ottawa that in terms of transition. It is a pleasant problem in there is a particular way of implementing the terms of the numbers you have, but it is also a boundary commissions in such a way that does logistical challenge fo r your transition, and the not allow for the government with the maj ority only party then that knows the boundaries is the to be planning on one set of boundaries and have government. in a potential election year opposition parties trying to guess what boundaries would be in place or alternatively guess wrong on what An Honourable Member: That is the way it boundaries are in place. We think that the should be. commission-and we recommended to the commission before that they must deal with this Mr. Doer: That is not the way it should be, issue. because that is then not independent. That is taking an independent, nonpartisan process and The Fox-Decent report, for example, was a turning it into a partisan process. commission whose implementation did not take place until after the election. In other words, Now, having said that, I want to deal with you start fresh afterthat election program. There another couple of issues that arise from the has to be a way of dealing with the independent Boundaries Commission report. In 1989, there Boundaries Commission report becoming a was a tremendous amount of controversy about · political, tactical advantage fo r the government the fa ct that the Boundaries Commission in of the day. One would cite the fa ct that when essence went close to one member, one vote, in the map was first produced in July of this year, terms of representation. Of course, this flows the draft map in July, the government said: Oh, fr om the '87 legislation that reduced the variation we will be running on the new boundaries. We in some ridings of the 25 percent, and provided will not ca ll the election until the new for a 25 percent variation in northern Manitoba boundaries are in place. Then we had the and provided fo r a 10 percent variation in rural proposed map, which is in this bill, in December Manitoba. 398 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 19, 1999

As a city MLA and as an individual who has Regrettably, we did not act on it. The the privilege and opportunity to travel both to government ha d a majority, and after the 1990 rura l and northern Manitoba, I wa s extremely election when we became the opposition and it disappointed and so were members opposite that had the support of the opposition-I do not know the legislative fra mework established by this whether the Liberals would have supported that Legislature was very much ignored in the '88 position or not, but I dare say it is not a bad idea. map and the '89 boundary law. In fa ct, the Maybe somebody like the chair of the Rural fo rmer chair of the commission, and I think it Institute or the president or the grand chief of was fo rmer Justice Monnin, at a press MKO or some other statutory position-I do not conference, sa id: I treat the province like 57 know which ones they are, but somebody that slices of cake and I sliced those pieces of cake represents somebody beyond the city of up equally and evenly. Winnipeg should be on the boundary commission, because to live and work in a Madam Speaker, that was not in the community outside of Winnipeg is to understand legislation because, quite fra nkly, fo r me to the different representation that comes to this represent Concordia in a very, very concentrated Chamber. community is totally diffe rent from the member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns), the member fo r I am disappointed that we collectively did Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson), the member fo r not do anything about that, because you do not The Pas (Mr. Lathlin), the member fo r do it after the boundary bill is produced. Then Thompson (Mr. Ashton) and the member fo r you are back into amending something that is Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen). Quite fra nkly, some already brought to this Chamber, and then you of the media coverage comparing Flin Flon to are getting into issues of political advantage and Seine River, with the greatest respect to Madam political disadvantage, which is not the goal of a Speaker, was very, very Perimeter centric in its boundary commission. But I believe this view. To compare Concordia to Flin Flon with boundary commission law must be and should Island Lake and Tadoule Lake in that be changed. It must be and should be changed to constituency is absolutely devoid of any reality deal with the whole composition of the of Manitoba. The boundary commission report representation on the commission. So we are and the boundary commission, in my view, must therefore committed to working with all parties reflect and should reflect and must in the future because I do not think any position should be reflect the fu ll reality of Manitoba. selected, but I am not-think the three individuals on the commission are good people, but I dare So, in 1989, what did we do about this? say, and I have not looked, I bet you they live in Well, the fo rmer Deputy Premier, the member one geographic area of the city. I will bet money fo r Arthur-Virden (Mr. Downey), proposed a that they are-I cannot bet money. That would be resolution to this Legislature, and many illega l. I ta ke that back, I rescind it, I apologize. members opposite, when they spoke, spoke to I would guess that they are probably living in an the fa ct that we would amend the legislation. area of the city that has got particular issues of We would agree to amend the legislation and representation. have added to the boundary commission representation one member from rural Manitoba But Concordia, where I represent, the and one member from northern Manitoba. I 20,000 people in Concordia are a lot easier for supported that, and we supported that. I know me to represent than 18,000 people in The Pas or that you have to pick not individuals but 18,000 people in Rupertsland or 18,000 people statutory positions to get away from, again, or 19,000 people in Lakeside. It is just not fa ir gerrymandering the boundaries through the to have people who have to represent rural selection of a person. communities have close to the same boundaries as those of us who are in the city. It is * (1450) unbelievable to have a representation of people in northern Manitoba to be similar to I thought the recommendation 10 years ago representation fo r those of us in Winnipeg who - was a good one, and we supported it. are five minutes away from our constituencies, April 19, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 399 five minutes away from our constituents, and back to another community five and a half, six have very little difficulty going from one hours away to be back at a meeting at nine community to another. o'clock the next morning.

Now, I have had the privilege of travelling I have to tell you that the way the with the member fo r Rupertsland (Mr. boundaries are now, I am worried about the Robinson) and to travel in his constituency is safety of our fo ur members fr om northern unbelievable. It is absolutely unbelievable. It is Manitoba. I am very worried that they work like that old movie Planes, Trains & long hours and drive late at night trying to Automobiles-planes, boats, airplanes, because I represent their constituents. I am very worried think-and helicopters. I mean, all the modes of when they get in a vehicle at 10:30 or eleven transporta tion-and dog sled teams I have not o'clock at night to go another six hours on the been into, but I have been into skidoos. You road after going all day long. I do not like it. I know, you have to wait an hour in an airport to do not think it is entirely safe. I know they are get a skidoo back to the community because the pretty used to doing it, but to say that is the same airport, of course, is on one side of the water as Concordia or Inkster or even Brandon East is away fr om the community versus the other, wrong. because the provincial government has the airstrip so the federal government ha s the I think that the commission, therefore, has to community and the people have no connection to be expanded. We have to keep the concept of an it. independent Boundaries Commission, but we must look at expanding the commission You look at the Garden Hill area. There representation with all party agreement before must be 6,000 people in Garden Hill, the First the next boundary change, and we have to fulfill Nations community. The airstrip is across the the recommendation made by the Deputy water. If it is break-up time, you have to wait Premier. Why have we not done this? Why for a helicopter to get across the water because have we not done this in terms of statutory the airport, as I say, is on the island and the representation on the commission? people are, of course, across the way. It is similar in St. Theresa Point, Wasagamack, other Why can we not think of somebody, a parts of that constituency, Oxford House. A lot position in rural Manitoba that is similar to the of these places, it is a massive job to travel. position of the president of the University of Even in some places, I mean, God's River, the Manitoba, a statutory provision, not a federal road and the airport are the same place, right. So position where you just appoint the members you have to watch out when you are trying to that could be or could not be partisan? Why can land there that if you are landing or driving, I we not think of a First Nations person in suggest you had better keep your head up. Now northern Manitoba, a statutory position, maybe that is diffe rent than Concordia. the chief of this community or that community, so at least Manitoba would have more than The amount of time the member-1 know, I people in one part of Winnipeg on the have travelled to meetings with the member for Boundaries Commission? So I really strongly The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) and the member fo r urge that that action take place, and let us work Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson) and the member for on it. Let us think of those people-or positions Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen) quite often. I rather, not people-who would be nonpartisan. remember last June when the Legislature was sitting, they were at a meeting all weekend in Secondly, I want to deal with the 10 percent The Pas with the OCN community. Then they and 25 percent. This Legislature passed laws on had a meeting at Moose Lake. We then had a dealing with a 10 percent variation in rural meeting in Thompson that night that we were Manitoba. It passed legislation dealing with a 25 able to fly up to from this Legislature. They had percent variation in northern Manitoba. That to drive fo ur and a half hours, five hours, over to was the recommendation of this Legislature to the meeting in Thompson. Then, because of a the commission. We did not tell them how to do tragic murder in a community, they had to drive it, what boundaries to change, what boundaries 400 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 19, 1999 not to change, but we said that we know, as agreed upon by all parties. I absolutely agree legislators, that a 1 0 percent variation is at least that the language can be and should be agreed to a minimum requirement for a rural by all parties, but our Legislature-yes, well, representative and 25 percent is a fa ir and anybody that has negotiated any contract knows reasonable representation variation fo r northern how much you get with may as opposed to shall. Manitoba. But having said that, the '92 Supreme Court Now, we were told in '89, well, there may be basically said that the laws and directions passed a court case and, you know, the Charter of by this Legislature in establishing the Rights and all this other stuff, but Madam boundaries, the political direction, the policy Speaker, there have been court cases since. In decisions were correct. The '87 policy decisions 1992 the Supreme Court ruled on Saskatchewan were correct as evaluated by the Supreme Court and of course Saskatchewan had its own history in 1992. Regrettably, it is not in my view the of boundary establishment, if I could use that Boundaries Commission's right to roll back the term in the most diplomatic way, but the policy decisions of this Legislature. It is rather Supreme Court said there are two criteria fo r their responsibility to have a nonpartisan way of establishing boundaries. One is the population, establishing the boundaries but consistent with obviously the voters. The second criterion that the Supreme Court and this Legislature's view must be considered by legislatures and that representing Lakeside is harder and difficult Parliament and is acceptable in any provincial and more onerous than representing Concordia law is the duty of representation. in the sense of representation.

Our law, therefore, of 10 percent and 25 * (1500) percent, the clear directions of this Legislature were found by the Supreme Court to be very I think that rura l members and northern consistent with their twin objectives of members should be joined by city members. I representation and the population. So when we think that to have the balance of population and see the kind of media coverage about Flin Flon representation which is consistent with the versus, let us take Seine River, was one example, Supreme Court decision is very consistent with or Concordia was another example, the people an interpretation of our law that gives a I 0 doing the coverage did not understand the percent variation fo r rural representation and we Supreme Court decision, nor did they understand give a 25 percent variation fo r northern the difficulty of being a rural member. So I representation. I fe el strongly that that must be think it is importa nt for those of us who live in dealt with and must be dealt with after this the city to rise up with the rural and northern election campaign, whoever wins or whoever members and get this right. loses. That is something we said in '89. We agreed on that in '89, adding two members to the How do we get it right? Again, you do not Boundaries Commission and having a clear do it in the middle of a boundary bill, because delineation of the intent of this Legislature on then it would be perceived to be political, but the policy issue of population as one criterion, you do do it, instead of having the words "may representation as the second criterion and be" 10 percent in rural Manitoba and "may be" dealing with the unique challenges of rural and 25 percent in northern Manitoban, which gives northern representation. the boundary commission the complete ability to deal with this issue and, if they refuse to do it, In 1989, we also thought that the the words "shall be" or something like that. I am Independent Boundaries Commission should, in not saying I would want to work in an all-party fa ct, have committee meetings in various parts way. of Manitoba. and included in that should be areas such as First Nations communities. In the I say to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Toews): Boundaries Commission report in '89, it said that this is very similar to a resolution that came from there was quite a lot of criticism fo r not having the Conservative Party in '89. This is not an any public hearings in First Nations - NDP idea. but I believe the language should be communities. April 19, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 401

Well, Madam Speaker, I think that is wrong An Honourable Member: Or September or as well. I think the Boundaries Commission October. should have-and our provincial secretary wrote the secretary of the Boundaries Commission and Mr. Doer: Well, I will not go on. I wa s not the chief electoral officerto say why are you not intending this to have any "cheap shots" in it, having any meetings in aboriginal communities? and I will leave that to the members opposite, You have got 10 or 11 meetings set all across the but back to my main point. I think that we to province. Why are you not meeting? You are again have a map out in May, and public making major proposed changes to Cross Lake hearings perhaps in September, but it is not fa ir and major changes later in Grand Rapids and again to have people that may have a shutdown Easterville and other changes that will directly in Thompson or be on the fields in Manitoba. affe ct the political organizations of those people, You know, people in Manitoba do not operate all the economic ties of those people, the kind of the same way. The summer fo r some is a period representation issues fo r those people, and that of vacation with their fa milies; for others, you should consult directly with those people Thompson, for example, they may be shut down first, not just have two meetings in the part of that period of time so they go visit other Convention Centre in Winnipeg and meetings in people in their communities-agricultural the nonaboriginal communities. We thought that producers, powwows, other events. So I thought there should be meetings in First Nations it was again wrong to have those hearings take communities. Again, I think the commission place in the summer. should be required by this Legislature, again, not to be dictated on its boundaries, but as a policy If the Boundaries Commission itself had a matter I think that they should be attending those year to deal with the census and come up with sessions. the population variations, why cannot the public have a couple of months to come back and talk about the impact on their community, on their I also want to comment on the timing of this ability to have representation? I think one of the process. I absolutely believe it is wrong to have rea sons why we have had so little turnout in a draft map produced in July and have meetings some of our areas, again, was based on the take place on the draft map in September, or timing of the commission. August ra ther. It started in August, I believe. There were only four or five weeks from the I want to ra ise a couple of other issues about time the map was produced till the time the this report that we must deal with. Madam public meetings took place. Speaker, we have a serious discrepancy between the band council count and the actual population Some of those communities, Madam count in aboriginal communities and the actual Speaker, had, I dare say, agricultural challenges census in those communities. We also have a in August. We had an early harvest this year. real discrepancy between the count in the inner There was not anybody, I understand, that city from the census and the actual number of showed up at Portage la Prairie-maybe they people that reside in the inner city. Now this is were tied up with the early crop-in terms of that not a problem unique to Canada, and it is not a public hearing. problem unique to Manitoba.

In northern Manitoba, some of those There is a huge debate going on in the communities have shut down. Some of those United States now of whether the inner cities of people have people that travel out of the the major urban centres are properly represented community because they can get out of the for purposes of the future congressional communities. There are a lot of cultural events­ elections. You have got massive population powwows and other events in the summer-and shifts fo r congressional elections in the year there was very little time fo r anybody, and many 2000, but there is a huge debate going on in the of the organizations do not meet in July, This United States about the inadequacy of the U.S. Legislature does not meet in July unless there is census on inner city populations and the urgent business. underrepresentation of people who may be on 402 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 19, 1999 the margins economically in the inner cities of community, again a community that was greatly the United States and therefore on the margins of undercounted. political efficacy and representation. *(1510) We know that the Legislature and the purpose of democracy is to have everybody Madam Speaker, what is the short-term feeling that they are part of the voting on an remedy to undercounting those communities? election campaign and everybody fe el that they Well, there is a legal short-term remedy. The have a right to vote, and that their vote will make long-term remedy is to get the act straightened a difference. I think the undercounting of inner out so that people will not be undercounted. city communities is a serious problem in North Whether it is in a rural community or in a America. I am not sure whether we will get northern community or in an inner city some kind of consensus-[ interjection] community, there is a remedy to deal with that. With computers today and with other data that Well, we have never been responsible for are available like medical numbers and other the census yet. We have never been in office information that is available, band counts, which fe derally, but the inner city areas are is the basis of payments from the federal undercounted. Now you talk to the member fo r government, there are ways of dealing with that Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) or the member fo r situation. But the short-term remedy of that Broadway (Mr. Santos), and they will tell you situation was there to the Boundaries that there is a huge discrepancy between the Commission. In my view, the Boundaries voters list-and you will know federally-the Commission erred dramatically in not having a census number and the actual people living in a 10 percent variation of rural Manitoba and not particular area. Therefore, we have to find a having a 25 percent variation in northern way in this century, with all the medical records Manitoba, which would have meant that north of we have and other data that we have, of looking 53rd Parallel would have gone fr om fo ur seats to at other ways of coming to a conclusion about five seats. If it meant another seat in rural actual numbers of people that therefore would Manitoba, so be it. I would live with that. It is dictate voters. not a political consideration. We went through the political reductions in rural and northern There were more people on the voters list, I Manitoba last time. But if we were to go to the think in Grand Rapids, if I am not mistaken, than actual variations of 10 percent, in rural Manitoba was in the census in the 1995 election. We it undercounts First Nations people. I dare say looked at various communities across northern there is lots of undercounting going on. Swan Manitoba and rural Manitoba, and the under­ River is a 33 percent undercount in those counting was something like 33 percent. In the communities. It would be most directly affected Swan River constituency alone, the under­ in those two geographic areas. We believe that counting of First Nations communities was 33 the North should have had 5 seats. I am very percent. When we looked at Rupertsland, I think disappointed that the 25 percent variation is not it was comparable, 33 percent undercounting in this act and a fifth northern seat is not there. between the number of people that the member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson) has to represent Now, we can debate about who would win and the number of people that were actually that seat or lose that seat or if it is a rural seat identified by the census as being therefore who could win it or lose it. You know, there is population. The member for The Pas (Mr. past history, but you never know what is going Lathlin), the same thing; the member for to happen in an election campaign, and I would Interlake (Mr. C. Evans), the same reality; the be very careful to make any predictions about member fo r Thompson (Mr. Ashton), with that. I just know that you cannot-the fo ur Nelson House, Split Lake and other people, whoever they are, from whatever communities, York Landing, same situation; the political party they are who are elected to member fo r Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen) with represent those fo ur northern seats, they are South Indian Lake and Tadoule Lake and other almost in a situation where I believe their safety - communities, and the Mathias Colomb is at risk just to represent those people. I dare April 19, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 403 say if rural members are driving eight or nine or In other words, the methodology used to 10 hours at night again after being in this establish boundaries in the city of Winnipeg, we Chamber all day long, that is also a problem fo r would have accepted 10 percent from rural and them relative to those of us who have to drive 15 25 percent for northern. The boundary bill in minutes to our constituency and then can be in a this province we believe should have in very central area in Winnipeg to represent our Winnipeg gone from theinner city out. We have constituents. So we believe there should be a so much work going on to try to make the fifthnorthern seat. downtown area of Winnipeg a better place fo r people to live and work. We have so many How long have I gone so far? What is that? social and economic challenges to make sure Thirty-three minutes? that people who feel they are disenfranchised rebuild their communities and are able to rebuild So we believe that there should be a fifth their communities with hope and with support northern seat. We believe the law is there, we from the provincial government. We are trying believe the Supreme Court has ruled to invest and trying to come up with solutions on accordingly, and we believe the undercounting housing, on social services, on health care of First Nations people, the remedy is there in services, on educational services, on recreational law to have a fifth seat. Certainly it is the services, on economic development, on down­ expressed will of this Legislature, an all-party town redevelopment, on its place in Winnipeg will of this Legislature. and our place in the future of Manitoba.

In 1987, the fo rmer member fo r River So to have a situation where the inner city of Heights, now Senator Carstairs, the NDP in Winnipeg loses the inner city seat and southwest governmentand the Conservatives in opposition, Winnipeg gains a seat, I think was a problem in we said there should be variations for rural methodology. I do not have any difficulty in Manitoba and northern Manitoba, notwith­ distributing the 31 seats in Winnipeg to save the standing the political ramifications of that. I 10 percent from rural. It may be down to 30 think that original consensus has been deferred, seats if we had 1 0 percent rural and 25 percent has not been properly dealt with in this map. northern. It may even be down to 29 seats. Of Therefore, the independence is reflected in this course, we would say that those are the first bill, but the direction of this Legislature is not in priorities, 25 percent and the 10 percent. But I terms of northern Manitoba. think the methodology to be used by the Boundaries Commission should be inner city out I would also like to make another comment to the burbs, rather than the suburbs in. I think about the inner city. We have a lot of changing they made some errors by doing that, and that is population, a lot of transient, or a lot of people not to say that it is not-you know, people talk moving into the inner city, some fr om First about strategic difference. I mean, we do lose a Nations communities, some from other seat, but we have a lot of other competitive seats communities across the world. It is much more that we are in the race on. That is not the point; difficultto count those communities, as we have that is not the point. The point is that if you look witnessed from Supreme Court decisions in the at turnout, if you look at economic and social United States, and it is much more difficult fo r data, if you look at health care data, the people us to represent those communities for those in the city who are most distanced from the people who are responsible fo r representing democratic process and feel most distant from them. power or the expression of power in this Legislature I would dare say would be in the Now, when I saw that Broadway was right inner city. on the population average fo r Manitoba, in fact I think it was 19,000 electors in the original We also think that, wherever possible, the population map, we were hoping, and we wanted Boundaries Commission should have had to see that in order to make sure inner city decisions which kept communities as close as residents were well represented that the possible to the same representation as they had boundaries actually went from the inner city out. before. Again, it is not a political problem fo r us 404 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 19, 1999 but with the change in Osborne and have already commented that I thought that the Crescentwood going one geographic way to boundary adjustments, in all of the city, should going another geographic way, going north and come from the burbs in as opposed to the inner south to east and west, I mean, all it does is it city out, or the other way around, rather. It breaks the communities of interest. There are should have come fr om the inner city out rather the railway tracks there, and, again, we thought than the burbs in, the suburbs in, as a resident of that that was not in keeping with the spirit of the a suburb, I might say, and as an MLA who act where a community of interest, wherever represents half a suburban seat, only half a possible, would be kept the same. suburban seat, not as much as the member fo r River East (Mrs. Mitchelson). So we think that Having said that, I think the Boundaries that made sense as well. Its adjustments in Commission did a very good job in a lot of other eastern Manitoba, south-central Manitoba, we decisions they had to make. I want to say that think made sense. The new LaVerendrye the adjustment they made to Roblin fo r the boundary dealing with some of the Francophone Dauphin community makes a lot more sense. population, we think made sense as well in that Anybody who has been to Roblin before knows riding, and a lot of other changes that were made that their community of interest is not Swan were the best changes that could be made. River but Dauphin. People in Roblin make decisions whether to go shop in Yorkton or So, Madam Speaker, in conclusion, we Dauphin. The hospital infrastructure-Roblin, I made a lot of speeches in '89. There were 16 believe, is in the Parklands health area. There is speeches in '89. I thought we had an all-party a lot more community interest in Roblin than consensus on rural and northern Manitoba. I there is in other communities, and that was a remember the eloquent words of the former good adjustment based on public input from the member fo r Churchill. I remember the eloquent people of that area. We support that as a words of the fo rmer Deputy Premier of this positive, positive decision. province, the present member fo r Arthur-Virden (Mr. Downey). Judging by what is going on in * (1520) that nomination race, you may want to-I will not go there. We believe that this Legislature set the Some of the other decisions on splitting parameters. We did not say that northern and municipal boundaries and how the commission rural Manitoba would be treated the same. We dealt with that based on the feedback they did not say that being an electorate in Flin Flon received from the committee were good was the same as being an electorate in Seine recommendations. The Boundaries Commission River. We said, no, that being an electorate in had to deal with the community of interest and Flin Flon or Rupertsland, with the 25 percent the municipal boundaries consistent with the variation, meant that the variation must be taken law, and where they made errors-I know that into consideration by the Boundaries there was an intervention on the Rockwood Commission report. community in the Rockwood municipality where that municipality was split, and the people in that We also said that rural Manitoba should be area fe lt that that was a disadvantage fo r their 10 percent. We also said that this commission representation. I thought the commission did should have additional people. We also think we well to listen to those arguments and acted should deal with the census of the undercounting accordingly. of aboriginal people all across Manitoba in terms of its impact on ridings and the undercounting in Madam Speaker, I also think that in some the inner city. So, therefore, we think that the parts of the city there is not a lot of change. commission should be changed fo r the future. Southeast Winnipeg, for example, I think the We think that the North should have and must boundaries reflect the population shifts. It have five seats in order to achieve the results of moves quite uniformly out to those areas. In the Supreme Court's decision. We think the northeast Winnipeg, it moves quite uniformly rural communities should have I 0 percent out to those areas. It makes the adj ustments in a variations; and, we think the inner city count very reasonable way. In northwest Winnipeg, I should go fr om the inner city out. Those would April 19, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 405 be our concerns,and this time around, as we deal fact, have been passed. I look at that as one of with the independent Boundaries Commission the cornerstones of democracy. When you report and we as politicians honour the spend and generate billions of dollars of tax recommendations of the independent Boundaries dollars, there is a responsibility to the public to Commission, that does not mean to say that we be held accountable in what I classify as the as the legislators are absolutely devoid of centrepiece of democracy. By not sitting here, responsibilities. We have to deal with the what we do is we make a mockery of what I deficiencies of this new map in terms of rural believe is one of the cornerstonesof democracy. and northernpeo ple. Another issue, Madam Speaker, is the whole We should commit ourselves to having rural issue of boundary redistribution. My colleague and northern representatives on the commission the member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski) and a fair reflectionof the Supreme Court in this stood in his place at the opening of the session province. Fifty-sevenmembers of this Chamber on a matter of privilege and talked about putting are not equal. Those of us who represent a 40- off debate on the throne speech. We believe, block area in the city of Winnipeg have a lot less quite frankly, that there is at least one precedent travelling responsibilities and representative that shows that we could have put off the debate responsibilities in terms of outreach than those on the throne speech in order to deal with of us who travel by canoe, by skidoo, by boundary distribution. We fe lt that that was airplane, by winter roads and by any other means critical because no one inside of this Chamber to represent Manitobans. All Manitobans are could guarantee that we would, in fact, have the equal but not all geographic areas of this new boundaries before the election itself being province are equal, and this Legislature has got called. to do something about that before the next Boundaries Commission report. Thank you very Now, having said that, in support of my much, Madam Speaker. colleague from The Maples, I assisted in doing what I could with respect to his matter of Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam privilege. Well, it was to my surprise that the Speaker, I too want to say a few words in regard government did, in fact, acknowledge that they to Bill 2. After all, it is a bill which we have were prepared to pass the legislation prior to been calling fo r fo r a little while now. Having dealing with the throne speech. said that, no doubt the temptation fo r me personally is very great to not necessarily be Madam Speaker, I applaud the government politically correct. So I might deviate from in taking that particular approach at dealing with being politically correct on a couple of occasions the boundary redistribution. I was, again, in putting my comments on it, and that is only greatly disappointed when the official because at times I think that it is indeed opposition, who, I believe, also had a moral warranted. There are fu ndamental principles responsibility to see this legislation passed, that as a person, as a political party, I believe denied the opportunity of this Chamber of that we fe el are absolutely essential. The passing it, of not changing or allowing for the disappointment that I have had on a personal boundaries to pass prior to debate on the throne level over the last number of months has been speech. overwhelming to the extent that it has been borderline depressing in terms of what I have My colleague for The Maples refers to it as seen take place. playing with democracy. Well, Madam Speaker, yes, the government was wrong in their handling I would start off, Madam Speaker, and of this particular issue. I would argue that the because we are talking about boundary official opposition was also wrong in the redistribution, I will only allude to the length of handling of this critical andvery important issue. the session very, very briefly, by saying that I do believe that there is an obligation for this House There is very little doubt in my mind that, to be sitting. Had this House been sitting when had it not been from the positioning of the it should have been sitting, this bill would, in Liberal Party on this particular issue, we would 406 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 19, 1999

likely not be dealing with that legislation here dealing with democracy on the whole issue of today. I applaud and acknowledge the actions boundaries. back in January when I had approached the Leader of the Liberal Party and indicated that I Now why I say that quite candidly is was wanting to have my nomination-actually, it because, you know, the 25 percent, 10 percent would have been towards the end of December variation, that is an issue, and I can vaguely afterthe release of the boundaries-in which our recall having that discussion, went back in 1989, newly elected Leader at the time, and there was amongst our caucus. You know, Madam no indecision on his part, indicated that there is a Speaker, there are pros and cons to being a moral and ethical obligation fo r us as a political member of a rural riding as opposed to an urban party to be having our nominations on the new riding and, yes, that should also be taken into ridings. That then set the stage fo r the party's consideration. It would joy me tremendously to position that we would do whatever we could at be an MLA from rural Manitoba. There are all whatever cost in order to apply pressure on this sorts of other opportunities that are out there in government to do what was right. What was rural Manitoba. I am not going to be right was to see these boundaries being passed as announcing; I am quite happy where I am. But I soon as possible. would suggest to you that there are certain opportunities and privileges and enjoyments that * (1530) a rural candidate has over an urban candidate, so I do not want the Manitoba Elections office to Madam Speaker, I respect the Leader of the believe that it is all one-sided. official opposition and the comments that he put on the record in regard to the New Democratic When we talk of duty of representation, you Party's position on some of the content and what have to take into consideration technology, they would like to see as a future. I disagree computerization and Canada Post, telephone with a lot of content. I want to comment on communications. There are all sorts of ways in some of that. I will wait for the member fo r which we communicate with our constituents I Thompson's (Mr. Ashton) speech. do not believe fo r a moment that the member fo r Thompson (Mr. Ashton) or the member fo r When we talk about, fo r example, the Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson) is any worse off underpopulations or Census Canada not getting a than I because I happen to represent an urban true count of the numbers that are actually there, riding. If those members feel that they are worse then what we are really talking about are some off, I am more than happy to sit down with them of the tools that Elections Manitoba uses in order and explain to them some of the things that they to gauge what the population actually is. I do can be doing with the extra resources that they not know if Elections Manitoba should be taking are being given, with the modern technology that flak fo r that particular issue. is out there. There are many.

One of the things that we have to be very I know it excites the member for Thompson cognizant of, Madam Speaker, because I know (Mr. Ashton). The member for Thompson that Elections Manitoba and other parties will be should be, I am sure, aware that potential reading what the member fo r Concordia (Mr. opponents that the member fo r Thompson has­ Doer) or the Leader of the official opposition, the member for Thompson has a distinct the Premier (Mr. Filmon) have put on the advantage over his potential opponents because record-so we have to be very careful. I would of the extra financing, because of the suggest to Elections Manitoba, as a party that communication budgets, both post office and garnered 24 percent of the vote in the last because of telephones, in terms of going into the provincial election, that we have a lot of insights next provincial election. It is not like a on what is necessary in order to see Elections candidate can go and knock on all 7,000 Manitoba remain completely independent and residential homes. The member for Thompson­ free in making what is absolutely critical in you have to take a balanced approach at what we terms of decisions of fairness and equity in classify as duty of representation, and you have Apri1 19, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 407 to balance that with equity and a sense of Madam Speaker, in May, existing maps with fairnesswithin our democratic system. populations of variations were in fact released July 1, which is- Madam Speaker, I would suggest to you that there are many disadvantages that rural An Honourable Member: Is this after you candidates who are not elected have, the phoned them or before? nonincumbency factor, that put them at a distinct Mr. Lamoureux: I phoned them a few weeks disadvantage compared to an urban candidate ago-a couple of weeks ago. July I, the draft was who is hoping to unseat an incumbent. I ask that released to the public. Starting on August 27 to the member for Thompson respect that fact, and September 11, public input was formally if he does not respect that fact, I would suggest received in seven different locations in to you that he is being very political. It is Manitoba. After considerable feedback, the indeed-[ interjection] commission went over several options and recommendations which ultimately led to the Madam Speaker, when we talk about final report being released on December 18. population, the Leader of the official opposition made reference to Point Douglas and made Madam Speaker, from that point on, the reference then to Seine River or the Speaker's responsibility then, the moral and ethical seat and compared it to Flin Flon and talked responsibility, was fo r this governmentto get us about what the media used. back into session and pass that legislation. [interjection] Wrong. The dean of the Chamber I can tell the member for Concordia (Mr. is wrong. I do not want to get off topic. You Doer), whenever I had the opportunity to talk to can refer to my earlier comments in this speech. the media, I talked about Point Douglas versus Seine River, a 17,000-1 8,000 versus a 29,000- Now, having said that, Madam Speaker, I 30,000. We are talking of a depopulation in want to go back to 1989. It was May 24, 1989, certain parts of Winnipeg, and we are talking the last time we debated the boundary about serious growth in other areas of Winnipeg. redistribution issue inside this Chamber. A-ctually we did not debate it that day, I stand Those, Madam Speaker, are issues that have corrected. It was read for the first time. Like to and need to be addressed, and that is the many other bills, 95 percent of the bills that reason why we created this independent process come before this Chamber-the bill is brought in through Elections Manitoba. How can we for first reading, no debate occurs for a great justifyto some MLAs and their constituents, and deal of time. Well, it actually came to debate for more importantly to Manitobans, the type of the first time in second reading on June 21, inequities that are here today? How do we then 1989. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) justify the lack of responsibility fo r actions by was correct. Sixteen people actually commented. the government and the official opposition had this bill not passed because of the inequities that An Honourable Member: Five hours to debate are indeed there? it. * (1540) When we look at the process, Madam Mr. Lamoureux: That is right, five hours to Speaker, there are a couple of things that I want debate it. Okay, having said that, then on June to comment on. December 1997 is actually 23 it went into committee. On June 26 it was when the research secretary was hired fo r going through a third reading; on June 26 it Elections Manitoba. February '98, the received Royal Assent. That is five days; that is commission first actually met. Between all it took. February and May, map options and census Canada figures were released. [intetjection] You know, Madam Speaker, when it went to Because I placed the phone call, and every committee-[interjection] No, we are talking member can place that very same phone call and from first reading. If you want to count first ask what actually took place. reading in the first fo ur months. We are talking 408 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 19, 1999 about legitimate debate days within this Mr. Lamoureux: Here is the point. The Leader Chamber. Between first reading and second of the official opposition I believe will respect reading, I would suggest to you that those were what I am saying as pretty close to 1 00 percent days that it could have been given first reading in terms of its accuracy. We know that we on June 21, quite frankly. cannot trust the Premier. We agree on that point, okay? The Leader of the official opposition Madam Speaker, the point is when we went acknowledges that particular fact. into Committee of the Whole back then, it passed without a word. There were no Well, Madam Speaker, what I am going to comments added to it. When it went into third have some trust and fa ith in is not only in that reading, there were no comments to it. It went paper, because that paper, it is signed, yes, but into Royal Assent. There is a good reason and what I am looking for is the assurance from the the Leader of the official opposition raised it in official opposition. We know that the budget is his speech, and that is that we want to be very going to be coming down on the 29th. We know careful that we are not accused of gerry­ that fo r a fa ct. Well, what I am looking fo r the mandering, which is a terminology that is used official opposition party to do is to ensure that where politicians fixthe boundaries. We want to this legislation is in fa ct passed and given Royal prevent that from occurring. Assent prior to the budget debate starting. That is what I look to the official opposition to do. Madam Speaker, to this day we still do not That is something which they can materialize. have a commitment on paper. Yes, we have a The member fo r Thompson (Mr. Ashton) says: commitment that we are going to pass these no problem, do not worry. There is that bills. That is a signed-offdocument, prior to the wonderful song: Don't Worry, Be Happy. The budget. I am a little bit of a skeptic, because I member fo r Thompson rectifies it by saying: have seen signed documents before. I still do well, you should always be a little bit worried. not have a commitment from the Premier saying that he will not call an election before these Well, Madam Speaker, you know, that is boundaries are put into place. something in which I trust that only the New Democrats can, because they have full co­ So, Madam Speaker, I trust and hope, and operation fr om us in order to ensure that most of that faith is going to the official legislation gets passed. Let us not be petty. opposition, I must say, to ensure that whatever is History is something that is there behind us. We taken, whatever has happened- have the bill. We can tell whether or not they are manipulating. They are prepared to pass it. Madam Speaker: Order, please. By all means, let us pass this legislation. There is absolutely no reason why this legislation Point of Order cannot be passed. Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): The One of the unfortunate things is the moment Leader of the Opposition said: do not trust us. I that I sit down the member fo r Thompson I am not too sure what he was referring to. believe is going to stand up. When the member for Thompson stands up, I think he might take Mr. Doer: Trusting somebody who does not exception to some of the things that I have said. have the authority to call an election is not a good idea. So the only person you can trust who An Honourable Member: I have been taking has the authority to call the election is the First notes, Kevin, yes. Minister. I would suggest that we not trust him, because I do not either. Mr. Lamoureux: As he indicates, he has been taking notes. Well, Madam Speaker, what I Madam Speaker: Order, please. The would like the member fo r Thompson, as I talk honourable member fo r The Maples did not have for the next 20 minutes or so I figure I have-no, a point of order. - I will not be that long. I am kidding. *** April 19, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 409

Madam Speaker, what I would appeal to the to get the type of support that I have had from member fo r Thompson is to keep in mind, as I the past in the new area, the area in which my have pointed out, that the office of Elections colleague for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski) Manitoba, in my mind there is absolutely no currently represents. I know the member fo r The doubt, will read and will take seriously Maples today will ensure that if, in fact, I am everything in regard to debates and comments on fortunate enough to be re-elected, I am held this particular bill. Hopefully that is in fact accountable for that area. I know I can count on the case. I really believe that it is a that, Madam Speaker. responsibility of Elections Manitoba, as it does on certain other issues, to convey and have But going back to what I think constituents discussions with party representatives. Those want is that they very much believe in the party representatives are not necessarily elected democratic system. They very much believe in individuals. They represent the parties in those principles, those fo undations of dealing with different issues regarding the democracy. I alluded earlier to the session, a elections and how they are run in the province of very important issue fo r me personally and our Manitoba. political party. When we look at the issue in which the member fo r Thompson (Mr. Ashton), Well, Madam Speaker, I would suggest that no doubt, will spend a good 50 percent of his as opposed to Elections Manitoba getting overly speech, in all likelihood, on- caught up in possibly some rhetoric, myself included, I guess to a certain degree, on this * (1550) particular bill, those discussions are better taken outside of this Chamber but take into An Honourable Member: It has gone up to consideration some of the comments that are about 90 now. being put fo rward on the record from members of this Chamber. I like to think that we express Mr. Lamoureux: -possibly 90, as he has not only party positions but also positions-what referred to-is some of the perceived and, in we feel are important to our constituents. That is some cases, real advantages and disadvantages what I am going to comment on right now in of being a rural versus an urban MLA. I appeal terms of the constituents' aspect. to the member fo r Thompson to take into consideration the impact on things such as This is the second time where boundaries candidates, the incumbency factor, issues such are changing. The first time boundaries as everything from abilities to appreciation. changed, I lost Brooklands or part of When the member for Thompson, I would think, Brooklands, and I lost the part of Weston. goes to a door in a remote area of his riding, I Wonderfu l people, it gave me a great sense of think that a constituent would look at that as a pride in first receiving good support fr om those phenomenal effort. The member fo r Thompson communities; and then, unfortunately, because would likely be rewarded handsomely, and the of the boundary distribution, I had lost the best thing you could probably get is not only privilege of representing them in the fo llowing appreciation but also some support. That does election. not necessarily mean that that is going to happen. I think that there are very clear For almost 11 years now, I have been advantages of being a rural MLA. I also believe representing the Shaughnessy Park-Mynarski there are very clear advantages of being an urban area between McPhillips and Keewatin Streets. MLA. It is indeed humbling to know the type of support that I have received from that area. It What is important, more important than has been a privilege fo r me to have represented anything else, is not what Elections Manitoba those constituents, and I trust and I convey that I does in order to' ensure better democracy-better have always attempted to do what I could to try representation, I should say, not democracy-! to make those communities a better place to live. misspoke myself. Elections Manitoba's I can only hope at this point in time that, if the responsibility is to ensure a sense of fairness in boundaries do take effect, I am going to be able the democratic system, and I very much believe 410 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 19, 1999 in a one-member, one-vote system, even though the very best of my ability, not only from within I am sympathetic to the 25 percent-and I know this Chamber but also within the Liberal Party, our party is sympathetic to the 25 percent-! and I would lobby Elections Manitoba. I would would not personally support that it should be ask that the lobbying of resources in enhancing instituted, that it should be "shall" be 25 percent. opportunities to be able to better represent your I could not support that. I could see Elections constituencies is something that happens in Manitoba giving some guidance to be taking that LAMC, and that is something that I am deeply, into consideration, along with the 1 0 percent. I as the Liberal Party is, committed to ensuring do not believe that it should be "shall." I think takes place. After all, it was the Liberal Party in that it would be a mistake. '88 that brought in a lot of the rules of enhance­ ment of our access allowances in working with What is more important is not what the third party at the time- Elections Manitoba does on that particular issue, it is more important what we do here in the An Honourable Member: Do not call us the Manitoba Legislature, in particular on the third party. I never liked that term. Legislative Assembly Management Com­ mission, because it is through LAMC that those Mr. Lamoureux: I do not like the "third party" sort of financial resources are given to allow either. That is a fa ir comment. members to ensure that there is a sense of equality in representation. It is not the primary The other opposition party at the time, I role of Elections Manitoba, it is the primary role would ask that we be treated in the same fashion of the Legislative Assembly Management as the other opposition party. But having said Commission. that, Madam Speaker, I think that the proof is in the pudding, and the party has demonstrated, I Madam Speaker, I would trust and hope that believe, strong leadership on this whole issue of Elections Manitoba will at least respect that - boundary redistribution and ensuring good, particular argument that you can reduce-you can solid, fair representation. It is a message which have Rupertsland's population reduced to 50 we plan to continue and be ever so vigilant on. percent, if you like, of the average size of a constituency, yet if we through LAMC give no Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam rural benefits to that member, I would argue that Speaker, I must admit I had planned on speaking there would be poor representation of that today, but my speech has been assisted greatly particular rural riding. What is critical, when it by the comments made by the member fo r comes to fair and equitable and good sound Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux). representation, first and foremost, is the individual who gets elected; second, it is the resources that that particular individual is An Honourable Member: Be nice. provided. Mr. Ashton: I will not be nice. I would like to Madam Speaker, Elections Manitoba is not make an invitation here to the member fo r responsible fo r either one of those. It is very Inkster and that is to walk a fe w-I was going to easy-and that is why I said at the very beginning say a fe w miles in my shoes here, but maybe a of my speech that I might not necessarily be fe w hundred miles in my shoes and the shoes of politically correct in my statements. When I every rural and northern MLA in this Chamber. made that comment, this, what I have just said in I want to preface it by saying that I do not the last two paragraphs or two minutes, is the underestimate the challenge facing urban MLAs primary reason fo r that. at all. It is a difficultjob being in the public eye. I understand that; I recognize that. We are all in So what I believe my constituents would a similar situation, and I never, ever, would want me to say in regard to boundary suggest that urban MLAs have privileges that we redistribution is that their vote has to have some do not have in rural and northern Manitoba. But, value in terms of equity across the province. you know, when the member fo r Inkster (Mr. That I will articulate fo r; I will articulate that to Lamoureux) just talked about the privileges that April 19, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 411 rural and northern members had, well, I could be part of the Monnin inquiry. It was talking not resist. about how in the technological age we did not need to have any recognition in terms of the size I am just trying to think of what privileges I of constituencies because of the technological have as a member of the Legislature. Now, first age. of all, my constituency is about 750 kilometres north of the city. I had the privilege this I would like to invite the member for Inkster morning of getting up, getting on the plane, and anybody else who is not aware of how far coming down here. I am lucky this week I got to that technological age penetrates in Manitoba to flybecause if I drove, it would be nine hours- come to my constituency. I represent eight com­ munities. By the way, I have it a lot easier than Mr. Oscar Lathlin(The Pas): I left at 5:30. the member for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson). I have it a lot easier than the member for Flin Flon Mr. Ashton: The member fo r The Pas left at (Mr. Jennissen). I think the member for The Pas 5:30 this morning. I will not be back home until (Mr. Lathlin) and I are probably in an equivalent Thursday night. That is a real privilege, is it set of circumstances, but I have fo ur com­ not? I get to spend four days here in the city, munities out of eight that do not have any roads. away from my family. That is just the start, the Oops, there goes that sort of technology aspect. travel we have to do just to get back and fo rth where we live. I look to the member for Ste. Mr. Lamoureux: Do they have telephones? Rose (Mr. Cummings), the member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns), I look around at our caucus, the Mr. Ashton: Well, there is another one. The member fo r The Pas (Mr. Lathlin), the member member says do they have telephones. For the for Interlake (Mr. C. Evans}-we are all in the member for Inkster, how many people does he same situation-the member fo r Dauphin (Mr. think in remote communities can afford Struthers), the member fo r Brandon East (Mr. L. telephones, 10 percent, 20 percent? I do not Evans). That is something urban members do want to assume that the member for Inkster is not have to face, that geographic separation from not aware of this, but in many of my their constituencies. communities, you have 10-20 percent having phones, and it is getting smaller and smaller the Now, I realize it may be a long trip back way the phone rates are going. So, so much for home fo r the member fo r Inkster (Mr. this technology. Lamoureux) if there is a trafficjam. I suspect it might be 15 minutes. * (1600)

Mr. Lamoureux: No, 25. I just want to outline some of the kind of circumstances we went through because by way Mr. Ashton: Twenty-five? Well, I guess the of background-by the way, when I first found member fo r Inkster must drive a little bit slower out about the first draft of the boundaries, I was than I do. [interjection] I appreciate the honesty on holidays. I was told, Steve, your seat is going of urban members-the member for Wellington to be the biggest seat in the province. I am in the (Ms. Barrett), who says seven minutes to travel firstdraft, and I thought, my goodness, they gave home. Now, that is one of the privileges, right? me half of Rupertsland. Do you know what? We get to spend the week in Winnipeg. Wait a They had made Thompson the largest seat by sec. Some of us also represent a lot of population. communities in our constituency. You know, we have the privilege. I will give you an example of So what I did, I went into the boundaries' this because the member fo r Inkster actually is hearings, and I actually took the map. I wish I not alone in this. There was a presenter to the could unroll it here, it would be considered an Boundaries Commission I thought summed up exhibit, I am sure. I kind of said, welcome to the same mentality. Actually, it was somebody Thompson, welcome to the Thompson associated with the Conservative Party. I think it constituency, and I outlined the eight was the lawyer who was originally supposed to communities and what it is like to be a member 412 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 19, 1999 of the Legislature representing those eight if you catch the southbound train and the communities. I would note that anybody who northbound train. There is only one problem has travelled in the North, like the Minister of with that. Sometimes the train can be 24 hours Northern Affairs (Mr. Newman), previous late, so you might run into a little bit of ministers and some of the MLAs who have taken difficulty. Sometimes the two trains coincide so the time to do that, will understand what it is that you get about half an hour in that like. community.

I started with Thompson obviously, urban Now, the other two communities on the rail community. Now, all I have to do is drive nine line, you have to spend at least a day, if not two hours to get home, and I can represent my days, in the community, okay? Now, no all­ constituency, okay. Now, Wabowden, it is weather road access. You know, I tell you, there actually on Highway 6. It is not that bad. It is are not a lot of people sitting around playing about an hour from Thompson. Then I started games on the Internet, you know. This is the getting into the communities with road access. re ality of a northern community.

Now, Nelson House, by the way, one hour Now, let us deal with the member fo r The outside of Thompson, has some of the worst Pas (Mr. Lathlin) because people will say, aw, it road conditions in the province. I mean, we looks pretty good, right? The member fo r The have been a little bit vocal about that in the Pas represents Cross Lake and Norway House. I House. We know it is an hour's drive, but you will te ll you how good our road networks are are lucky if you get there with your fo ur tires into Cross Lake and Norway House. A year ago, intact. The same thing with Split Lake, it has an the road was closed fo r several days. This is a all-weather road. By the way, that is the end of provincial highway. Of course, it happens to be the access to roads in my constituency. in the North, okay, so provincial highways in the North have a slightly different character than Now, if you want to get to York Landing, provincial highways in those parts of the there is a fe rry. Do you know how often it runs? province where, you know, if you want to put a Twice a week. Now, if you want to go to York political map over them, they are coloured blue. Landing right now, can you go by fe rry? No, So you cannot necessarily even get in there. because we have not had the spring thaw yet. You cannot get in necessarily right now. In fact, [interjection] Even if you are , if you want to between the time the ice bridge is open and the spend three or four days in York Landing­ fe rry runs, you have several weeks when that please, I would invite the member fo r Inkster community is not accessible. (Mr. Lamoureux) to do that. I am sure the community would be a very gracious host. Do Okay, I am just dealing with Thompson and you know what? You could say, well, there is The Pas here. What about Rupertsland and Flin the winter road. Well, you know, the member Flon? Now, I say to the member for Inkster (Mr. for Transcona (Mr. Reid) took the time to travel Lamoureux), who talked about the privileges on that winter road, and it is not an easy road to that members have, you know, you can send out travel on. If you get an early thaw like we did all the franks and householders your want, you this year-I was planning on going in at the end can have all the trave l money you want, but try of March. Guess what? No winter road. and put yourself in the situation of the member fo r Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen). Now, he Jives in Now, I actually have communities that are Cranberry Portage. He represents Flin Flon. Do accessible by train only. The member fo r you know where else he represents? Brochet, Wellington (Ms. Barrett) has been in that Lac Brochet, Tadoule Lake, South Indian Lake. community, as well as the member for Do you know what? They do not have road Transcona (Mr. Reid). You know, what is access. Do you know how the member fo r Flin interesting is you can get into those com­ Flon accesses his constituency? He gets in a car munities. Now, one problem, the train runs three from Cross Lake. He drives to Thompson. Then times a week. Now, you can actually go into he drives through my constituency in its entirety one of the communities, in and out the same day, to hit the first community that is accessible in the April 19, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 413

northern part of his riding at Leaf Rapids. Do An Honourable Member: Eighteen. you know how long a drive that is? About four hours, five hours, if you do not get stuck on Mr. Ashton: Eighteen communities, the Highway 391. That is the member fo r Flin Flon. member for LaVerendrye (Mr. Sveinson). The member for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers), you look at Now, I have leftthe best or in this case the the area that he has to represent. worst till last, the member fo r Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson). Now, actually, the member for An Honourable Member: We should give him Rupertsland has a unique distinction. He right 18 ridings. now in the current boundaries can be in his constituency in about an hour and a half. You Mr. Ashton: Well, and the member for Inkster may say, boy, he is lucky. He gets to go and he (Mr. Lamoureux) says we should give 18 is in his constituency in an hour and a half. The ridings. I say to the member for Inkster-and I only problem is it starts at Sagkeeng First could be political-! could suggest that maybe the Nation and goes all the way to the 60th Parallel­ mentality of the member for Inkster showing [interjection] Well, the member for Inkster (Mr. today is one of the reasons why the Liberal Party Lamoureux) says how many ridings will we has I think had one MLA outside of the city in have in northern Manitoba? We said put in the last 20 years. Because you know it shows a place in terms of what the North had before complete ignorance. As much as I disagree with 1989, which was five northern ridings. That the Conservatives on so many issues of would solve the problem, and that was the principle, I mean I do recognize there are many position of many northerners. members across the way who represent rural ridings the same way we represent rural and An Honourable Member: Five would resolve northern areas, and probably understand of what all those problems? I speak, andmany urban members too, because a lot of our urban MLAs in our caucus have An Honourable Member: It would go a long travelled into those communities. In fact, when I way. look around right now, everybody in this room has been in my constituency at least one time. Mr. Ashton: Well, you know the member fo r Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) says, and five would An Honourable Member: I have been there resolve all those problems, and as the member four times. fo r The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) points out, it would go a long way. Mr. Ashton: And the member fo r Inkster has been in Thompson four times. That is sort of I realize the member fo r Inkster does not like one month of being the MLA fo r Thompson quite get this privilege that he thinks we have. here. I understand that may have been a great You know, actually, I am very proud to experience fo r the member. represent Thompson, and I would not like to change places with the member for Inkster-but An Honourable Member: How many times maybe even fo r a week. I think I could handle have you been in Inkster? the 25-minute drive back. We will trade it, the nine-hour drives. This is something any of us Mr. Ashton: Oh, I have been in Inkster. I have who represent rural and northern areas do on a actually knocked on doors in Inkster too, by the regular basis. I know rural and northern way. members in this House who are travelling within much closer constituencies. I recognize this as An Honourable Member: Are you talking old well. The LaVerendrye constituency, fo r or new? example. It looks very easy to service, right? But how many communities are within that? Mr. Ashton: No, I am talking I have been in You know, it is not like in a city riding where Inkster. I can say to the member opposite, do you have one event here, and you are five not talk about the rural northern ridings as minutes-[interjection] How many? somehow being privileged because of any kind 414 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 19, 1999 of assumptions you have about modem members of constituencies having access to their technology. It is not the case. member of the Legislature.

An Honourable Member: said there are * (1610) advantages and disadvantages- So, in 1989, the Boundaries Commission Mr. Ashton: Well, you said advantages, made a mistake, a serious mistake, I believe. In disadvantages. Earlier on you talked about the 1992, it was proven to be the case. We ended up privileges. Now you said about the advantage with this set of boundaries discussions. that incumbents have. You know, I would like to show you my shoes if I could, but that would Well, I want to note that the first map that be another exhibit. With these shoes, you know was put out was one of the worst pieces of work the big advantage I have in my communities. I could have imagined under these circum­ When I go into communities like Thicket stances. I understand it is an independent Portage and Pikwitonei and IIford and York commission, and I am saying this now after we Factory First Nation, York Landing, you know are dealing with the final report, but I can tell what I do, the big advantage I do? Do you think you, to have had Thompson be the largest I mail tons of stuff in? That is the big constituency by population was an insult, an advantage. Do you know, do you think I go absolute insult. To ignore the needs. In fact, around with glossy leaflets? You know what I staff people-I appreciate by the way that I think do? I knock on their door, and I ask them if they the commissioners were concerned about this­ have any problems or any concerns. That is the were going around saying: well, the North is not experience of most rural and northern MLAs is going to get a fifth northern seat. community contact, the same thing as in the city. There is no magic thing when you step outside You know, we did not ask fo r any special of the Perimeter. You know, the bottom line is, privilege. We asked fo r the use of the 25 percent - in fact, we have a distinct disadvantage in one provision which would have dealt with that, and way. Tonight, you will be back in your the member says: Oh, sure we asked fo r special constituency; tomorrow you will be back in it. privileges. And what special provisions? To The day after you will be back, and rural and make sure that- northern MLAs cannot do that. An Honourable Member: Then why do you That, by the way, brings me to the bottom say they have to take into consideration? line with the boundaries discussion. In 1989, a lot of the problem we are seeing today with Mr. Ashton: Well, I am saying to the member, northern seats was created. I say to the member and the member fo r Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) for Inkster-in 1989, in fact 1988, the Boundaries still does not get it. The first map that was Commission took the law which allowed fo r a drafted, the seats like Seine River's, for example, 25 percent variation in northern Manitoba, 10 were some of the smallest seats by population; percent rural Manitoba-you know what they Seine River was smaller than some of the rural did? They said: we assume that the Charter of ridings. [interjection] Well, the member fo r Rights will result in this being struck down. So Inkster is suggesting that his constituents are not they went and they eliminated the fifth northern as good as ours. I assume if we have a situation seat, Churchill. of 25 percent representation-

Now that was not the legislation; they Point of Order assumed that. You know what happened in 1992? The Supreme Court of Canada, in a case Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, on a point involving Saskatchewan, said you are allowed to of order, the member fo r Thompson has have those kinds of population variations definitely left on the record-he is trying to put because the reality is you need to balance out words in my mouth to the effect that he is saying both representation in terms of the legislative that my constituents are not quite as valuable as - sense and also representation in terms of maybe they could be or should be. I did not April 19, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 415 catch the exact words because the member for Thompson, by the way, one of the main The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) was trying to imply recommendations we made was that the something which I totally disagreed with. I do commission, which, coincidentally, consists of believe that the value of my constituents is equal three people based in the city of Winnipeg, to the member fo r Thompson's or the member should have taken the opportunity not just to go fo r The Pas's. into the major urban centres but to go into, for example, Cross Lake or Norway House or Madam Speaker: The honourable member fo r Nelson, travel into some of the aboriginal Inkster does not have a point of order. It is communities because, believe you me, this was a clearly a dispute over the facts. significant concern at the time, particularly in Cross Lake. I give the commission credit- * * *

An Honourable Member: Is that not where Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, my entire point Cubby Barrett got his license? here is that constituents of the member fo r Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson) should have the best Mr. Ashton: Where Cubby Barrett got his possible opportunity to access their member of license. Yes. We will get into that. I am the Legislature. Unless you have fair boundaries diverging here because I want to point out the that reflect the act at 25 percent, you are unable fact that the commission did not travel to to have that take place. I would say to the aboriginal communities. If theyhad, I think they member for Inkster who will be driving home to would have heard, as I hear from my his constituency tonight, that 25-minute drive constituents, very direct concerns about ensuring that he talks about, that tonight he will be back that the North was treated fairly. in his constituency and people can phone him at any particular point in time. They can phone Now, I want to make a couple of him at home. suggestions here by the way, because I think part of this-this could have been dealt with by the I will not be home tonight. I will not be commission. It can be dealt with by legislation. home until Thursday. That is one of the I want to make a number of suggestions to difficulties you have as a rural and northern resolve some of these problems. First of all, I MLA. I cannot commute, and I say to the would suggest that from now on in, as we member for Inkster that one of the reasons we discussed in 1989, we have a Boundaries have a balance is because of that. By the way, in Commission that has both rural and northern Saskatchewan, my understanding is that the representation. [interjection] variation that is included there is a 40 percent variation in the northern area. Well, the member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski) asks a very good question. We could The member for Inkster seems to have this do it, for example, on the basis of we have the thing about the North getting recognition of its University of Manitoba. We also have geographic area in terms of electoral boundaries. institutions outside of the city, Brandon I know the member said he did not have a University, Keewatin Community College. problem with the 25 percent. He seems to have There are various different institutional this fixation on northern Manitoba. I say to the arrangements. I think, if we accept the principle, member fo r Inkster, the bottom line is here. This we can work out someone who is objective on is something that is enshrined in every these matters. I think that would help give the Legislature in this country, the fact that there is a broader perspective that we need. That is the diffe rence by region, and that is why the first first recommendation that I think we can all map that was issued was such a insult to agree on, okay. northerners.

Madam Speaker, I give the commiSSion The second thing I would like to suggest, by some credit on the second round of hearings, but the way, Madam Speaker, to resolve some of the I want to note that having been at the hearings in other ongoing difficulties, I think we really 416 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 19, 1999 should revisit the provisions of the act in terms the interesting developments where candidates of the 10 and the 25 percent variation. I think were basically persuaded not to run again, were the intent was very clear in 1987. It was not appointed to bodies such as the Freshwater Fish fo llowed in 1989, and I do not think it was Marketing Corporation. Oh, I am sorry, I am fo llowed this time in its fullest sense to allow the talking about a specific case here. I should not kind of variation that ensures that you get fair say too much about Ron Fewchuk because he no boundaries. longer is in that job. I guess he has gone on to Liberal patronage-Senate, well, not the Senate but the pension heaven-but that was a case of I also want to make another suggestion, that how you do not deal with boundaries. I do not we look at changing the timing in the dealing want to see us lose that. with boundaries, because one thing that I find is very unfortunate about this situation because of * (1620) the fact that for the first time in more than a decade we did not have a fall sitting, is that we I want to suggest, Madam Speaker, we very end up in a situation where the final map was really came close to losing that this time. I point drafted in December, our session did not begin the finger in this case at the Premier (Mr. until April. By the way, the government could Filmon) who said originally there would be new have brought us back in under the old session to boundaries and then a fe w months ago suggested deal with boundaries. They chose not to. We we might be running under old boundaries and then were dealing with the throne speech. We now we are back to new boundaries. As the are now dealing with the act in place here, and member fo r Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) points out, there has been a fair amount of debate back and we do not yet have a definitive position in terms fo rth from Liberal members, Conservative of the time of the election, but I would say the members and from our side about when those agreement ensures that. I cannot see anybody in boundaries will come into play. Well, there is I this House supporting any other situation than think a solution to this. - having those boundaries in place before the election. That was the intent of what we have One suggestion I would make is that we agreed to in terms of the seven days we are to could have avoided this problem if we, fo r debate, but fr om now on in let us take that example, had required the commission to bring temptation out of the mix. When the final its boundaries in at the end of, say, 1998 and decision comes down, that is it. There is no then have those boundaries come into place upon more recourse. There should be no ability of a passage by the Legislature not the fo llowing government or an opposition party or any party January but the January after that, okay. That to be able to time the circumstances as to would have given plenty of opportunity of notice whether it is better for them or worse fo r them to the political parties who would then be aware politically. I think we are all agreed on that, and of the diffe rent boundaries, would have given that can be easily dealt with. people I think a chance to familiarize themselves with diffe rent boundaries, because we would end Well, I want to go a bit further as well, up with a rather unique situation now. We could because I want to get back to some of the have an election within a matter of days, weeks, suggestions that can be made in terms of the months. A lot of people with the changes will northern seats. The current act says that the not know which boundary they are in, which commission may be able to go to 25 percent. It constituency they are in. The solution I think has proven it has not done that, and I would would be to get some delay. suggest we need to look at bringing in the provision "shall" and defining it in that sense. I By the way, as much as we have had some do not think that is unreasonable, by the way. strong words back and fo rth, we have not By the way, I will tell you what we said in engaged in the kind of a manipulation that took Thompson, and I guess it depends sometimes place in the fe deral House of Commons. I your view of the province. When you are in would just like to draw the attention of people to northern Manitoba, I like to take those maps and - that, with the delay of the boundaries, some of sort of turn them on their head a bit. April l9, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 417

Think about this fo r a moment. We went to I must admit, too, we have made it very easy the Boundaries Commission, a cross-section of for them to appoint defeated Tory candidates in people. Even the returning officer fo r the North. We produce a lot of them in the Thompson, an appointment of this government, North, and we have produced a regular supply a very respectable community official, said five now since 1981, perfect candidates fo r regional seats is fa ir. health authorities and other government positions. You know what I said? The real issue here, if you want to put it in perspective, is not four But, you know, that is not the point. The seats versus five seats for the North. The real point is fairness. Thirty years ago the North question, Madam Speaker, was whether there voted Conservative, to the member for The were going to be 52 seats or 53 seats fo r Maples (Mr. Kowalski). [interjection] Well, the southern Manitoba. Fifty-three seats was the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) says why original draft of the map. We were arguing that five; why not six; why not seven? It is it should be-or 54, pardon me, and it should be interesting, he has gone from fo ur, now he is up 53, or 53 and 52. We argued that it was not to six or seven. [interjection] Well, to the unfair to suggest that the North should have five member fo r Inkster, the act says the commission seats, and the rest of the province should have can go up to a variation of 25 percent which is a 52. reasonable variation. What I am suggesting is that is what the commission should have done, Now, if we got our way, if we had been and the result would have been five seats, listened to as northerners fu lly, I do not think we fo llowing the intent of the act. [interjection] would have tilted the balance of power in this Well, it is interesting, because, you know, the province too much by having that extra northern member fo r Inkster cannot make up his mind seat. I know the Minister of Northern Affairs whether he wants four northern seats or six or (Mr. Newman), who I am sure is an advocate seven-[interjection] I appreciate that. I actually within his caucus for the North, would agree invite the member for Inkster to make his fifth with me. I mean, that one extra seat, what would trip to northern Manitoba, perhaps come up and it have done? Would it have created chaos we will organize a forum on this in Thompson. I politically? [interjection] Well, the member fo r will invite the member fo r Inkster to get up and The Maples (Mr. Kowalski) says one more NDP explain why he thinks that northern seat. I notice he did not suggest the Liberals in constituencies and northern MLAs have all these that mix, but, you know, there have been great privileges. I am sure the member for The competitive races in the North. Maples (Mr. Kowalski) perhaps in his new career might be able to come along and give An Honourable Member: Who represented some assistance to the member for Inkster Thompson before you? because he might create a bit of a stir in Thompson. [interjection] That is right, we will Mr. Ashton: As the member fo r Wellington give him a tour of the mine. (Ms. Barrett) points out, I defeated a Tory cabinet minister in the North. We have had But, you know, I want to appeal to the good Tories in the North. It is interesting because, nature of all members of this House and even to you know, I ran against a very well-known the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux). I will incumbent, and I beat him, to the member for almost fo rgive him for his comments about us Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux). So it is possible; it is having these great privileges in rural and possible. You know, there are Tories in the northern Manitoba. North. They are easy to identify because all you have to do is look at the board appointments. It An Honourable Member: You do not think it is like if we have one member-! am sure they sit is a privilege to be in Thompson? there and the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Newman) says we have one member in Mr. Ashton: Well, I consider it a privilege to Pikwitonei. I know how you can spot him; he is be in Thompson, to live in Thompson. I am on a board already. proud of Thompson. It is my home community; 418 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 19, 1999

I have lived in it since I was a kid. I am proud to Well, I spoke too soon. The weather got represent Thompson in the Legislature, but, you bad. I could not get out that night, could not get know what, the only privilege is representing out the rest of the morning. You know what Thompson in the Legislature. I do not get any somebody said-in fact, Thomas Beardy, who is a material privileges. To tell you the truth-1 want counsellor, said, you know what, do not worry, to say this on the record-! actually got to the Steve. There were two other people that were in point after 17 years where I must have travelled the community at the time. They said, we will a couple of a million miles back and fo rth, that I get you out by skidoo. Now this is November, actually do not quite enjoy travelling the way I okay. So we went off by skidoo over to Split used to. Lake. We then caught a taxi from Split Lake to try and meet the incoming van that was sent up I look at the member fo r Brandon West (Mr. by the airline-remember, we could not get on the McCrae). I am sure when he gets out on plane. We caught it on the highway. We then Highway I, you know, every time he goes back went back. Two other people from Winnipeg, to Brandon, he is saying, boy-he is probably they got on the bus, and they travelled I 0 hours thinking of the member fo r Inkster's comments to Winnipeg. I still remember going downtown here. He is sitting there and, Madam Speaker, it to see my wife who was not expecting me fo r the is, boy, what a privilege to be able to represent a whole weekend, and I must admit she was a little rural constituency. I can see the member fo r La bit shocked that I was going by skidoo in Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson). He is going to be November, but that is the reality. If you want to travelling this weekend around his 18 get into Thicket Portage in the summer, you communities. He going to be thinking, boy, know one of the best ways is going by boat. Kevin is right. This is great. This is a great Phone somebody up-if they have a phone, I just privilege. I look at the member for Dauphin said that to the member for Inkster-and they will (Mr. Struthers), and he is doing the same thing. pick you up by boat. The member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin). We are - all going to be thinking about those inspiring An Honourable Member: It sounds like you words of the member fo r Inkster (Mr. do not like this. You do not like this job, Steve. Lamoureux). Mr. Ashton: The member fo r Inkster says it I am going to be driving back, and I am sounds like I do not like this job. Look, I have going to be saying, boy, I am lucky. I always already announced I am running again. I am have these advantages as an incumbent. As I proud to represent Thompson. But you know drive through Highway 6, and after I get beyond what, all I ask is that the member fo r Inkster- St. Martin and I do not see anybody past Grand Rapids, except-well, pardon me, Ponton, which Point of Order has I think six registered voters. Mr. Lamoureux: Yes, Madam Speaker, I just An Honourable Member: Well, when you get want to ask the member fo r Thompson: why into an outboard motor. does he feel so depressed about the riding which he represents? That is what I want to know. Mr. Ashton: Well, I did not talk about that. That is the point. am glad the member fo r The Pas reminded me. have been lucky because I have travelled every Madam Speaker: The honourable member fo r which way in the North, except for dog team, I Inkster, I am not sure if you were up on a point have to work on it, but I give the member fo r of order, but, regardless, it is not a point of Inkster an example, the kind that we in the North order. It is a matter of interruption. have to face on a regular basis. I went into York Landing, York Factory First Nation, I went in in *** November, no ferry, no winter road. You fly in. So actually one of the members in the Mr. Ashton: Madam Speaker, my whole point, community said to me, are you going to over­ to the member fo r Inkster and I wish you would night, Steve? I said, well, maybe next time. be listening, is give me the opportunity as a April 19, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 419

northern member. Do not tie one hand behind northern constituents have a fair chance to see my back by making sure, as the original draft of us, have a fa ir chance to have contact with us. the boundaries was going to do, that I have the You know, it is not fair-and the member fo r biggest by population. Give the member fo r The Roblin-Russell (Mr. Derkach) understands of Pas, the member fo r Rupertsland (Mr. what I speak. It is not fair if you have a situation Robinson), the member fo r Flin Flon, the in which you have two different categories of opportunity of the same contact with our MLAs in this province. constituents that you do every night when you drive home to your constituency. You know, you can give some support through constituency allowances, and, by the * (1630) way, I welcome the members' comments because we are still inadequate. I know members of this An Honourable Member: That is not possible, House in rural and northern areas who pay out of Steve. their pockets every year because they do not have enough allowance to be able to travel even Mr. Ashton: The member fo r Inkster says, it is just within their constituency, and I notice the not possible. Give us the best possible chance. member fo r Portage (Mr. Faurschou) and the Give us what the legislation allows, the 25 member fo r La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson) and percent, that is all we are asking. In the end, I the member fo r Interlake (Mr. C. Evans). We do tell you, one thing about northern MLAs is that that on a regular basis because we care about our you could say we are proud of giving good constituents, but, you know, I say you can give representation. You can still call us suckers fo r us all the travel allowances you want, but you punishment, whatever you want, but I will say still have to have some sense of balance. That is one thing, you can give us whatever boundaries, why we have the allowance for 25 percent; that and we will try our best and we do. I say to the is why we have the allowance for 10 percent. member fo r Inkster, again, who seems to be now-and I assume that he is speaking officially I want to appeal not just to the member for for the Liberal Party because he is the one MLA Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), but I want to appeal to that is running again. I do not know if he is an this Legislature and the future Legislature to acting leader. I do not want to get into that, learn fr om the experience of what has happened. sorry. It is a sensitive issue, but, anyway, I I have deep concerns about the fact that we in assume-[interjection] He is arguing this. I want the North have to even go and argue our case to say to the member for Inkster, if you want to before the Boundaries Commission. That should have any chance of winning seats outside of the never happen again. We should not have to go city, what you need is to have some sense of cap in hand. We should have what is our just rural and northern Manitoba. due under the legislation. I say that fo r rural Manitoba as well, because I actually questioned When I talk about the experience of some of the constituency boundaries in rural travelling in my communities, and I look at all Manitoba because I really think that there was the other rural MLAs-one thing, by the way, not full use of the 10 percent in some cases that what I always do as a matter of course is to make has led to some constituencies in rural Manitoba sure I travel like everybody else does. When the that are not fa ir constituencies. I note, by the winter roads open, I am on the winter road. way, there is an assumption of growth in the When it comes to highway travel, I travel by city. The smallest ridings right now are the highway. That is what we do. That is part of suburban ridings in the city, and I know some of representing your constituency. the other members will talk about the situation facing core area ridings, fo r example. But, you But, you know, I say to the member for know, there are some inequities built in there. Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) that one of the things we have to do fo r all of us, including the rural But I want to make sure we do not have to MLAs as well, is to ensure that the constituents go cap in hand again, Madam Speaker. What I of the member fo r La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson) want to suggest on this is that because this is an or my constituents or any of the rural and independent commission, I do not think we have 420 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 19, 1999

any choice other than to support its better representation to rural and northern recommendations, and I want to note on the Manitoba. Thank you. record, it is one heck of a lot better than the first map which I classified as an insult to northerners Mr . Ma rcel Laurendeau, Deputy Sp eaker, in the and I think to many others in rural Manitoba. Chair

I want to state, by the way, that I think the Mr. Kowalski: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I rise to commission did listen on some of the smaller put a fe w words on the record in regard to this concerns, the community-by-community bill. concerns, but the next time around, next time, the next Legislature perhaps, we should be A number of times, I spent Christmases with making sure that we have-and I want to sum up Douglas Campbell. He is related to my wife. I here-a fairer commission that represents rural remember often speaking to him about what was and northern Manitoba. It is not acceptable that his proudest achievement. Many people, when we do not have a single member fr om a rural and they speak of what Douglas Campbell did fo r northern area. this province, they talked about electrification, yet he fe lt that the most important thing he did was introduce this independent body to set We should have, Madam Speaker, a proper boundaries. The principle behind it was that no timetable to put this into place, so it is put in political party, no lobbyist-the term "gerry­ place perhaps a year after the reports come out, mandering" has been used-would interfere fo r so there is none of this jockeying back and fo rth, political purposes with the setting of fa ir no questions asked about that. We should make boundaries fo r a fair and democratic election. I sure that next time around that the 25 percent think that is something we all agree with, but we provision is available to northern seats and the are almost interfering with that principle by 10 percent in the rural areas. It will not tilt the using the timing of setting those boundaries fo r - balance in this province. I do not think this time political purposes. So I am glad we have gotten around that it would have made much difference, to this point today, but I am not going to rest if any, certainly to the political balance or even easy until this bill receives Royal Assent. the rural and northern balance.

We talk about whether the Premier (Mr. Mr . Ben Sveinson, Acting Sp eaker, in the Chair Filmon) will call an election before or after this bill is passed. We talk about that it should be I want to stress, especially to the member fo r passed before the budget, but in the brief time I Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), because, you know, as have been in politics, I have learned there is very a northern member, I have always fo ught for a little you can count on fo r sure. You have to be province that is inclusive, yet I believe in flexible. Things could happen. The budget fighting fo r Winnipeg when its interests are could be defeated theoretically. Anything could affected. Winnipeg is the driving engine, but happen, and we are gambling with a fa ir and without rural and northern Manitoba, there democratic election by not passing this bill as would not be much in this province. This is part soon as possible. So I will not rest secure until of I think the arrangement that we need, this bill has been passed and know that the next understanding our unique needs in this province. election will be fa ir and democratic. So that is the one point. One of the things we need in northern Manitoba and rural Manitoba is we need Also, I know that, before I did my matter of electoral processes and boundaries that are fair, privilege, I read the debate fr om I 0 years ago. I Mr. Acting Speaker. I think we have gone a read all the different speakers. I am sure that long way by having an independent process the Elections Manitoba referred to that before they last 40 years, but we have to go a lot further in did this review of the boundaries, and I am sure the future, and I strongly urge that we not forget 10 years from now before they do it again, they - this lesson. We have to make sure we do it will be reading the debate from this session. So better next time, and doing it better means giving a couple of suggestions. April l9, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 421

Number one is that in the naming of the Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Mr. Deputy ridings I believe we should avoid naming ridings Speaker, it is written: "But ye be doers of the after towns, especially in rural Manitoba. For word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own example, they have chosen to name one riding selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and Carman, but what about all the other towns in not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his that riding? When whoever is successfully natural face in a glass mirror: For he beholdeth elected from that is in some other town in that himself, and goeth his way, and straightway area and says, I am the member for Carman, do fo rgetteth what manner of man he was." they feel disenfranchised? So I think that is something that they should look at in the future, I would like to talk about The Electoral that in the naming of boundaries they get away Divisions Act, the democratic principle, and from naming provincial ridings by referring to some ideals of a good, democratic, political towns. One member has suggested maybe system. The Electoral Divisions Act of hyphenated names, but still they did Winnipeg­ Manitoba was passed initially, as I can recall, in St. Paul fe derally. That might be one solution, 1957, maybe earlier, but I know from 1957 up, but in some areas you might have three or four which created the Electoral Boundaries towns of equal size or close. Why should one be Commission, consisting of: (1) The person who, favoured? So I 0 years from now when the from time to time, is the Chief Justice of Boundaries Commission is going to do this Manitoba; (2) the person who, from time to time, again, I hope they will get away from naming is the president of the University of Manitoba; provincial ridings after towns. and (3) the person who, fromtime to time, is the chief electoral officer. In other words, it is The other thing to get away from this, this naming institutionalized positions, rather than was a matter of circumstances that, when the particular individuals who may occupy such normal rotation of elections comes and when the positions. 10 years come and that, the timing was unfortunate. It is unfortunate that we were not The Electoral Divisions Act empowers the called into session prior to dealing with this, but Electoral Boundaries Commission in the year maybe there is something we could change in 1968 and every ten years thereafter to proceed the legislation in the future so that we do not get and establish a cushion fo r its electoral divisions into this predicament once again. The in the Province of Manitoba. They do this by suggestion is possibly-and it is not up to dividing the total population of the province by Elections Manitoba, that would be up for us to 57, the number of electoral divisions in this do it as the Legislature-to put it in the act that, province. So all you do is get the population when the bill is passed, it is retroactive to the according to census statistics, divide it by 57. release of the report. If we passed the legislation That is the average provincial number of people and made it retroactive, whenever the report is­ in every district, in every riding. bang, that is the new boundaries. We still retain the responsibility of passing that legislation Now, since the Legislative Assembly, this because ultimately it is ours, but by making it Assembly, was not in session, neither in July 15, retroactive to when the Boundaries 1988, nor in December 18, 1988, the president of Commission-then it cannot be used for political the council, namely the Premier, who presides in manipulation. cabinet meetings, has this Boundaries Commission report, both the preliminary andthe So I hope debate will proceed quickly final report, without the report being made through the House, through second reading, publicly known to the people of this province, through committee stage and third reading, and some of whose basic rights, the weights in their we pass this bill so that the next election is based respective voting rights, are being fundamentally on fair and democratic boundaries. Thank you, altered to promote the basic democratic Mr. Deputy Speaker. principle, both in theory and in practice. Believe me, there is a wide gap between the theory and * (1640) the practice of democracy. 422 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April l9, 1999

Now, let us look analytically at this so­ The majority is not always right. There is called democratic principle. What is the basic always that potential risk of the tyranny of the democratic principle? majority to the detriment of the minority.

Ma dam Sp eaker in the Chair What, then, are the component characteristics of the democratic principle? The basic democratic principle asserts that There is the authority to govern; established, it since the political community is composed of emanates and derives from the consent of the people who live under a framework of an governed. Two, the authority to govern derives established political order, to say that political from the doctrine of majority rule. However, authority emanates from political order is since the majority is not always right, adequate equivalent to saying that the political authority to protection of notice and hearing of the views of govern emanates from the people living in the the minority is guaranteed, so that the minority ordered political community, which in our case may not be subject to the ever-present risk of the is Manitoba. The people are the source of the tyranny of the majority, which is always there. political authority to govern. Consequently, the majority of electors in the process of general election gives legitimacy to Therefore the English political philosopher the assumption of governmental power by those by the name of Thomas Hobbes said, in his who have been elected to positions of authority book, the Leviathan: For the prosperity of a by the same democratic process. The same people rules by an aristocratical or democratical election can unseat the political ruler as the fluid assembly, cometh not from aristocracy or majority of electors may decide, fo r what was democracy, but from the obedience and concord previously the minority may now become the of the subjects; nor do the people flourish in a majority. monarchy because one man has the right to rule Finally, another characteristic of the over them, but because they obey him. Take democratic principle is that there are specific - away, in any kind of state, the obedience and limits to governmental powers. Those who are consequently the concord of the people, they temporarily vested with the power of making shall not only not flourish, but in a short time authoritative decisions, those who run the they shall be dissolved. Therefore, human government, have no right to intrude into the beings as individuals are the ultimate choice constitutionally guaranteed rights of citizens, makers in determining group actions as well as such as the democratic right to vote in an private, personal actions in the calculus of election fo r members of the House of Commons consent in determining the political right to or the legislative assembly of any province and govern. the right to be qualified as candidate fo r membership in those bodies. In a truly democratic society, the governors govern through the consent of the governed, to Such constitutionally guaranteed rights are whom the persons in authority are made subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed responsible and accountab le to through the by law as can be demonstrably justified in a fr ee periodic exercise of the right to vote where its and democratic society. Examples of such voter is counted as an individual in the would be reasonable limits prescribed by law, determination of the majority which decides who demonstrably justified in a free and democratic is to govern. society. Examples are the necessity to protect the public safety, to protect the public health of The British philosopher John Locke said, the people, to protect the public morale and the and this is the rationale fo r the majority rule: fundamental right of the fr eedom of other For that which acts any community, being only citizens. the consent of the individuals in it, and being one body, it must move only one way. It is * (1650) necessary that the body should move that way whither the greater fo rce carries it, which is the If a vote-rigging plot, according to Chief - consent of the majority. But let us accept it. Justice Monnin, is an unconscionable April 19, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 423

debasement of the citizens' right to vote, and, if So I asked the question, and one of the to reduce the voting rights of individuals is a participants said: I am not familiar with the violation of our democratic system, how can a situation you describe in Manitoba. And then nonelective political party bureaucracy consent Mr. Santos said: I am saying any province. I am or sanction any manipulation whatsoever by any just saying a theoretical thing, but it is applicable minority of the entitlement of the right of the to Manitoba. majority of individual party members in good standing and residents within the constituency Then the Chair said: Maybe we could ask boundaries to nominate and vote at any someone from Manitoba to answer the question nominating meeting the candidate of the if you fe el at ease with it, and if not, I do not majority's choice? How can they do that? want to put anyone on the spot. So they called on our Honourable Speaker. The Honourable Let me recall some incident in the past. The Speaker said, Louise Dacquay-she introduced Chair in a Canadian Parliamentary Association herself-Speaker from Manitoba: The reference Conference pointed out that legislators are most Conrad made is that in Manitoba we are of the time males; wealth, privilege, education, undergoing a boundary review based on our and Euro-Canadian ethnicity still are advantages legislation which dictates that every 10 years the to getting elected in Canada. Then when a boundaries be reviewed, and it is based on minority or disadvantaged group is culturally population. The inner core portion of the city of diffe rent fr om the larger society, the views and Winnipeg has decreased in size, which I think is experiences of the group will often be different. not necessarily restricted only to Winnipeg but He said our challenge in our daily work is to use also some of the other larger cities in the a fram ework of consistent principles to guide our neighbouring provinces. The suburban area has fu ture decisions. He said today we can discuss grown substantially. Regrettably, Conrad's and help develop a fr amework of principles to constituency of Broadway has now. been guide ourselves. deleted-at least this is the proposal. It will be going to public hearings. Nothing is final at this He said resolving such conflicts is not so point in time. This is the proposal put out by the easy; legal, scientific, historical, ethical, independent Boundaries Commission. financial considerations all play a role in govern­ Regrettably, Conrad is the only member of the ment decisions. If we were afraid of difficult Manitoba Legislature from the Filipino decision making, he said, we should not be here community. We do have members in the as legislators. Many individuals and social Manitoba Legislatur� fr om aboriginal groups are seeking redress for social and population. That is only fo r clarification. physical harm that they suffer. This requires Regrettably, I cannot answer the question. I serious consideration, he said, and I look have absolutely nothing to do with it. fo rward to discussion of these issues. And that is indeed the truth. Now I ask the Then the Chair opened the floor fo r question: If every member of a political party discussion and said: Si vous avez des questions? elected to public office, who is a member of the Alors, M. Conrad Santos, Manitoba. constituency he represented and he represented all the people in the constituency in which he or Conrad Santos said: The new minority she was voted to public office by the majority of groups are not well represented in the the electorate in his or her riding, how can a Legislature, even the corresponding nonelected, nonpartisan electoral Boundaries proportionate distribution of themselves in the Commission of three of the most eminent total population. When the minority group citizens of the province justly abolish any succeeds in being represented in one seat in a constituency, as distinguished from merely 57-seat Legislature, I would like to hear some redrawing the limits of his boundary without explanation fr om you why the Boundaries adversely affecting either the rights of the Commission should abolish that one seat which citizens who are qualified voters to vote or the factually is the most stable in the province. right of the elected representative of the people These are just the facts. to run once more as a candidate fo r public office 424 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 19, 1999

when that representative has no more riding to strategies that could possibly be invented by the contest fo r election. human mind in the struggle fo r political power to govern. Could the abolition of the most stable innermost core area riding be justified? The In securing the consent of the govern, facts show that the constituency population in governments are run inevitably by human that riding is merely 26 persons over the desired beings, and we are not angels. So we utilized a provincial cushion of 19,547, the average variety of ways and means in diffe rent societies, provincial constituency population. If you in widely different cultures, we have utilized divide 26 by 19,546, it is only one-tenth of 1 bodies of doctrines to be believed, things much percent difference. Stable. Now, if you use the in same, stage of reason so that the masses of the population of Winnipeg, which is greater than people will be obliged in their human intellect to the provincial average, it will only be 378 give their consent to the continuance of the persons less than the desired city average of governance of the many by the few through the 19,951. If you, again, do your division there to institution of government. Three examples of get the present day's equivalent, it is no greater such credenda inculcated in us believed by the than 2 percent difference, the most stable there is masses and by the people generally are the in all of the province's boundaries in all fo llowing: During the days of absolute- constituencies in this province. I ask the question: why is it abolished? I cannot answer; Madam Speaker: Order, please. When this no one can answer. matter is again before the House, the honourable member fo r Broadway (Mr. Santos) will have 20 Now I want to shift gears and talk about minutes remaining. democratic attitudes, values and belief system in democratic societies. The honourable Deputy The hour being 5 p.m., time fo r private

Speaker is looking at the clock-maybe I should members' hour. - stop at this point in time. * (1700) An Honourable Member: No, no. PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS Mr. Santos: I wish to talk about democratic attitudes, values and belief systems in PROPOSED RESOLUTIONS democratic political commumttes, truly democratic ones. In writing about the deriving Res. 1-Volunteerism of the just powers of government from the consent of the govern as the centrepiece of the Mr. Denis Rocan (Gladstone): I thank you democratic principle, the American very much fo r the opportunity to debate distinguished professor of political science of volunteerism during private members' hour, but I long ago, Charles Merriam, he was also active in wonder if you would be so kind as to canvass the practical politics, wrote a book called Systemic House and see if there would be a willingness on Politics. He said: Between coercion and the part of members to waive the second consent there are many intermediate stages that WHEREAS, because in consultation with my run into each other so subtly as to make House leader and members opposite it appears distinctions difficult. There is the continuum there is a willingness that if we would remove including intimidation, threat, fe ar. There is the the second WHEREAS, there might be an continuum: information, suggestion and per­ opportunity that we could pass said Resolution. suasion. Deeper than what we see, the miranda of political interaction. That is what he is terming, miranda, what you see, lies the Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent credenda, what you really believe. The credenda to delete the second WHEREAS in the of consent and then behind the credenda cries Resolution? - the real politic, the inner workings, the political goings on, the practice, the tactics and all the An Honourable Member: What does it say? April 19, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 425

Madam Speaker: Do you want it read? House today, as people in this province and people around the country celebrate National The one that has been asked to be deleted Volunteer Week. This resolution speaks to the reads: WHEREAS governments in Canada must very heart of what National Volunteer Week is put tax dollars to the best possible use in all about, to recognize the invaluable providing important public services; contribution that volunteers make in this province, yearin and year out. Agreed? [agreed] Here in Manitoba, one way in which we are Mr. Rocan: I thank members fo r their celebrating volunteer week is with the Premier's indulgence. volunteer service award, which will be awarded to 12 individuals and organizations who have I would like to move, seconded by the shown an outstanding dedication to volunteer honourable member fo r St. Norbert (Mr. service in this province. Laurendeau), What we are talking about today is the spirit WHEREAS volunteers have contributed of volunteerism, which poses the question: how immensely to the rich fabric of Manitoba do we define volunteerism and why do people throughout its development; and choose to be a volunteer?

WHEREAS volunteers make a remarkable I would answer that question by saying that contribution to our communities through service the spirit of volunteerism is present any time an clubs, religious organizations, sport associations, individual is helping others and is doing so community clubs and health and social service because it makes that person fe el good inside. auxiliary groups; and Many people also chose to volunteer because they recognize it as an important part of building WHEREAS the spirit of volunteerism a healthy community. abounds in Manitobans across the province who are willing to invest their time and expertise in To put it into a fe w words, the spirit of making Manitoba the best place to live, work, volunteerism was captured by Sir Winston and raise a family. Churchill when he said: "We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the give." Legislative Assembly of Manitoba commend all those who work tirelessly in their communities Every day in Manitoba, thousands of to improve the quality of life of all Manitobans; individuals volunteer their time to make a and difference in their communities. It may be making a visit to the personal care home to sit BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the and talk with the residents or to the hospital to Assembly encourage the spirit of volunteerism bring comfort to patients. It could be leading a among the people of Manitoba which assists in troop of Brownies or Scouts after school or the growth and enhancement of Manitoba's being a Big Brother or Big Sister. It may be communities. driving the local handi-van or being a part of a Rural Crime Watch program, where neighbours Motion presented. help neighbours by keeping their eyes and ears open. Mr. Rocan: Again, I take this opportunity just to thank members fo r giving us this opportunity We even see the spirit of volunteerism this afternoon to put some remarks on the record extend to people far away when, as individuals in regard to our volunteerism, which happens on or as a country, we offer support to strangers a regular basis throughout the province. It is facing disasters or turmoil such as is happening fitting that I should have this opportunity to in Kosovo. There are countless social, cultural, bring this resolution before the members of the community, and nonprofit organizations active 426 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 19, 1999

in my constituency and around the province that quietly and may go unnoticed or unappreciated, each make important contributions through their but we would certainly be a much poorer society volunteer and charity work. if we were to lose the spirit of volunteerism.

Although there are too many to name them To give just a fe w example, in Manitoba, all, I would like to take a moment to recognize a children and youth are very active and successful few of those organizations which I am proud to in sports. Yet, this would not be possible have been associated or I am associated with: without the volunteer time donated by teachers The Shriner's, who make an enormous difference and parents to extracurricular sports programs. in the lives of thousands of children who have Manitobans, both young and old, are culturally bum and spinal cord or orthopedic injuries, enriched through our libraries, museums, and through their network of children's hospitals. arts programs, many of which could not run The Lions Clubs are another organization that without volunteer staff. The safety and security has made great contributions in their of our fam ilies is dependent on the fact that we communities and our province with their eye have a strong network of volunteer firefighters in programs. The Masonic Lodge, another great rural Manitoba. Manitoba is blessed with a philanthropy organization, dedicated to helping strong spirit of volunteerism. I can speak individuals or their families travel to and fro particularly fo r rural Manitoba in saying that in hospitals to get cancer treatments. our small communities, volunteering has always been accepted as a way of life. Whether it is through the church or a local organization, Volunteers also provide the backbone fo r volunteering your time is just something that we many of the large events that we take pride in do as a member of our communities. hosting. Take, fo r example, the cultural event such as the Fringe Festival and the Jazz Festival In today's world, we seem to lead much and sporting events like the Grey Cup and World busier lives. In many families, both parents Junior Hockey. In fact, it is unimaginable that - juggle work and children, and it can often take a our province could this summer be hosting such great deal of our time and energy just to balance a large event as the Pan Am Games without the both. Given this reality, it is even more generous support of volunteers. The Pan Am important to recognize and thank Manitoba's Games will be the largest celebration of sport volunteers and to remind ourselves of the great and culture ever staged in Canada. The games contribution volunteers make on a daily basis to will have a great immediate economic impact on the quality of life that we enjoy here in this city and will provide Manitoba with a Manitoba. vehicle to expand economic and cultural relationships in the Americas. This just goes to *(1710) show how much we can accomplish as a province with the help of a dedicated and For all of these reasons, I ask the Members enthusiastic volunteer base. of the Legislative Assembly to join me in commending Manitoba's volunteers and to The time and effort given by volunteers is encourage the spirit of volunteerism among the one of the major reasons that Manitoba is one of people of Manitoba. We should encourage the best places to live, work, and raise a family. volunteerism so that it is not lost upon the next It has been estimated that the annual economic generations of Manitobans and so that our contribution of volunteer activities to Manitoba, communities and our province may continue to if calculated just at minimum wage, is $264 grow stronger in the fu ture. million. However, it truly is not possible to put a dollar figure on an act of kindness and giving. Therefore, this resolution should be People coming together to help others is a spirit supported by the members of the Legislative that really builds and binds communities, and Assembly as it commends the work of that is priceless. The people of Manitoba are our volunteers and supports efforts to encourage the strongest resource as we all know. Often the spirit of volunteerism among the people of - important work performed by volunteers is done Manitoba. April 19, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 427

I thank you very much for giving me this on a nonprofit board was on the Volunteer opportunity to put those few remarks on the Centre of Winnipeg. I sat as a youth record. representative for the Volunteer Centre of Winnipeg for three years. One of the jobs that I Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Madam had at that organization as well was organizing Speaker, we are happy on this side of the House fo r International Youth Year the youth volunteer to support a resolution that recognizes volunteers award that was given out as a special award by and Volunteer Week in Manitoba, which is this the Premier in that year. That was 1985. That, I week, April 18-24. We want to recognize the think, represented one of the other new trends in contribution that people across the province volunteerism, and that trend was to start make to our communities. recognizing that volunteerism provided an I have a few remarks that I want to opportunity for work experience and for valued contribute to the debate. I think we all have the skill development. chance to visit with a variety of diffe rent organizations in our constituencies, and a Young people, it should be recognized, are number of those are volunteer organizations that increasing the rate of volunteerism the quickest we realize the community would not be the same and the most rapidly. They are showing the without. I also want to talk a little bit based on greatest increase by doubling to 33 percent in my own experience and make the point that 1997 from 10 years before that where it was only volunteers do not just happen. Good volunteer 18 percent. programs require a lot of planning, a lot of good management, and there is a lot of work that goes So this is a dramatic shift and trend where into recruiting volunteers, into making sure they young people now-there are many programs in are aware of what they can do and cannot do, schools where young people are introduced to and into making sure that they get the proper volunteering by having part of a course recognition on an ongoing basis so that they requirement that they spend time in some type of really fe el that they are part of that organization. volunteer position as part of a school credit. All of this has been the establishment in the Oftentimes I think that introduces them into charitable and nonprofit sector and, in fact, in something that they carry fo rward through the government sector and through the philanthropic rest of their life without having to get any kind endeavours of a lot of companies and businesses of recognition through a course credit or any in the private sector toward a much more other kind of compensation, but they just realize structured and organized volunteer management how valuable it is. approach to dealing with volunteers. Another trend, I think, is we see across the Prior to being elected, I was trained in country with an aging population and with volunteer management and certified through people being able to retire with so much more organizations in Winnipeg at the United Way as time available to them and retire at a younger well as courses through our own Manitoba age in better health, we are now seeing that more Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. There is a people are able to volunteer after retirement. wonderful program called the National Skills Program that trains people-and I have brought But there is another trend that I think is some of the materials with me-in all facets of significant, and that is the effect of the economy fu ndraising, of time management, of building and changes that we are seeing. That is also communication and decision making among having a squeeze on a lot of families. I think the volunteers, volunteer board management. Now member across the way fo r Gladstone (Mr. there are even certification programs and degrees Rocan) recognized this too. This trend, I think, in universities dedicated to this sector. There fits in with something else that we have to be has been a lot of work done in our province in very concerned about, that the trend is for us to the development of these programs. have more shift workers, to have more people with part-time jobs, to have more people I remember back when I was a young working overtime, and a greater number of person, one of my first positions after university families where both parents are working. They 428 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 19, 1999

are feeling like they cannot fit in the kind of have one government board of politically volunteer requirements that are being asked of appointed people who do get some them, because the other trend that we are seeing, compensation fo r their meetings. This govern­ and I am going to talk about how we are seeing ment may say that they are volunteers, but it it fr om this government, is fo r a decline in public certainly is a far cry from what used to exist. services and an offloadonto the charitable sector and an offload on relying on volunteers of what The same thing happened with the Manitoba previously was done by paid people, particularly Environment Council. There used to be over 50 government. environmental, I would call them, experts. They were volunteers, but they dedicated their life. This government in particular, where we Again the government reached in, eliminated the have had a very nice resolution today put Manitoba Environment Council, appointed about forward by the member fo r Gladstone, but if you half a dozen of their people that they chose, and look at this government's record and realizing wiped out volunteer input to the provincial that actions speak louder than words, we see an government in the area of environment fr om the interesting trend when it comes to volunteerism. wide range of people fr om across the province.

Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): What would Similarly, last session this government that be? passed the changes to The City of Winnipeg Act, where they eliminated and supported the city, Ms. Cerilli: The member fo r Dauphin asks: eliminating the resident advisory groups, who what would that trend be? And I am going to tell were completely volunteer. They ensured that you. If I was going department by department there was some kind of regional input across the and looking at the kind of community-based or municipality of residents into City Council on a volunteer-related organizations that this govern­ regular basis by having city councillors meet ment has had to deal with, there is a telling with residents from their area. This government - picture. I look at what this government did with saw fit to wipe out those volunteer Child and Family Services, where they had organizations. volunteer boards throughout the province. They had volunteer boards that were running * (1720) incredible volunteer programs throughout the province. What did they do? They centralized The same thing with our community Child and Family Services. They eliminated hospitals. This government saw fit to go ahead thousands of hours of volunteer contribution and centralize through the Winnipeg Hospital throughout the province. The one program that Authority and the Long Term Care Authority has remained in the district that Child and hundreds of volunteer positions fr om the Family impacts on my constituency in east area, community who represented the needs of the until this day they have been fighting to try and community, the understanding of the community maintain the historic volunteer effort related to that only people who live in those communities supporting children and families. can have. They chose to create this whole new bureaucracy around a centrally administered The same thing happened in Manitoba hospital and long-term care by eliminating those Housing in 1991. This government took over community volunteer boards. Manitoba Housing. There were 91 local-98, 91- volunteer housing authorities throughout the If we look even further back in this province made up of community people, government, this is a trend that has been municipal officials, and this government again longstanding, not only with just having volunteer reached in and amalgamated Manitoba Housing. boards but with the kinds of things that they There was a mandate at that time to set up social have volunteer organizations do that advise housing advisory groups in the regions that were government. The Manitoba Intercultural Council supposed to at least carry on this tradition of is another example of how they chose to no housing volunteer representation. This govern­ longer have that organization be involved in - ment never implemented that. Now again we advising the government how to distribute funds. April l9, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 429

I believe they maybe thought that that was a parents, they would have provided some strong responsibility that a volunteer group could not advocacy fo r that important service. I guess have. when it comes to volunteers in that capacity, the government is not necessarily as interested in Similarly, when you look at the Manitoba having those volunteers recognized. Sports Federation, we all know of the thousands and thousands of people who volunteer as I often talk about the shiftsthat go on in our coaches and officials in the area of sport. Those community with respect to the voluntary or people also have a history of running very well­ charitable sector and how if we are going to see organized agencies fo r sport, and they have in certain things like education and health care as a the past elected people to the Manitoba Sports right-and we believe that education and health Federation en masse. That was basically an care are a right-then we have to be very careful elected community-represented, voter-based by about transferring those kinds of services onto that, or community-agency-represented-based the charitable sector, just like you cannot have organizations, and this government has changed something be a right if you have to pay for it. It that. People tell me on a regular basis that they is also not a right if you are relying completely are concerned about how that has affected what on the charitable sector to provide that service. is now called Sport Manitoba, what used to be the Manitoba Sports Federation. So with those few comments, I do want to wish all the thousands of volunteers well in We raised the issue today in the House of Manitoba and recognize them fo r their the kind of work that is going on in the contributions and wish that they would be community by parents who are fo rced to recognized on an ongoing basis and recognized volunteer more and more in their schools under in all their capacities whether it is the service this government's cutbacks in education, but they do, the funds they raise, and the important looking at the kinds of things that those parents advocacy that they provide. Thank you, Madam are now doing, and what are they doing more Speaker. often than not, they are fundraising. We were concerned today that the Minister of Education Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Culture, (Mr. McCrae) is not necessarily going to listen Heritage and Citizenship): Madam Speaker, I to those parent volunteers to hear the concern am very pleased to rise in support of the about what is happening in our education resolution brought fo rward by the honourable system. member for Gladstone (Mr. Rocan), in recognition of volunteers in the province of So when we talk about volunteers, we Manitoba. cannot only see them as a way to offload services and a way fo r them to generate more This week, from April 18 to 23, 1999, revenue. I think we also have to realize that one Canadians celebrate National Volunteer Week. of the most valuable things that volunteers bring Though we want to pay particular attention to is that voice fr om the community, is that volunteers in Manitoba, where we derive a great advisory capacity, is that ongoing checks and deal of benefit from all of the work that they do, evaluation and needs assessing that can so much I am also very pleased to spread that recognition benefit government programs. across Canada, recognizing that there was this August a major conference on volunteerism. It That seems to be what this government was an international conference. Manitoba had really does not want to have volunteers do, or representatives there. I know that those else they would not have eliminated this very representatives came back to Manitoba able to in small grant they gave to the Foster Parents' an even stronger way recognize the volunteer Association, which was another volunteer-based element of our province. organization that allowed fo ster parents to come together and deal with issues and provide support to each other, but also at a time when the This annual event gives us an opportunity to government was reducing the funds to fo ster show our appreciation fo r the vast contributions 430 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 19, 1999

of many volunteers and also the many volunteer I know that many people in this Chamber organizations who really do give selflessly of were out fo r hours on end as well sandbagging. their time, and also of their resources in order to Wherever the call was given, volunteers went to enhance the quality of living in communities that area. It did not have to be an area that they across our province and across our country. knew well or that they represented. There was a need, and Manitobans went to that area to assist The 1997 National Survey of Giving, and to save a property and people's homes. Volunteering and Participating reports that 31.4 percent of Canadians aged 15 and older Volunteerism not only creates a co-operative volunteer an average of 149 hours per year, fo r a community atmosphere, but it is also a part of a Canadian total of 1.1 billion hours of volunteer healthy and active lifestyle. Manitobans play an time. Closer to home, 40 percent of Manitobans important role in assisting Manitoba to host aged 15 and over volunteer an average of 130 events of national and international status, and hours per year. The annual economic that has allowed Manitoba to showcase our contribution, as referenced by my colleague fo r home-grown hospitality to all of the world. Gladstone, of this volunteerism in Manitoba has been measured at $264 million if assessed at a We have cultural events such as the minimum wage, and that is a very large Winnipeg Folk Festival which I know many commitment quantified fo r the people of Manitobans enjoy, and it really runs on an Manitoba. incredible volunteer base of people fr om all areas and interests in Manitoba; the Winnipeg Fringe Festival which I think many people in As a Manitoban, I am very, very proud of this Chamber have enjoyed; the Jazz Winnipeg our volunteers throughout the province, and I Festival, a very successful event here in the city know that there is no work that is more of Winnipeg, International Children's Festival. rewarding than volunteering. The volunteer effort is often the basis of people's interest and - It goes on and on. I think many of us, and passion, and they spend hours and hours in an most Manitobans, have had the opportunity to effort to assist in an area of their interest. experience a benefit in our cultural showcases which again are by and large actually run during I come from a volunteer background also, the time of the event by volunteers. Those Madam Speaker. Other members have spoken volunteers, many of them make a commitment about that. I have had extremely good training year over year. It is not just a one-time effort as a volunteer, and it has really assisted me in all and then they fo rget about it. It has become their areas of my life. This government recognizes passion, their interest, and they volunteer year the tremendous contribution of the extensive over year volunteer effort that we are so fo rtunate to have in all of our communities. As the member fo r The 1997 Canada Summer Games in Gladstone (Mr. Rocan) referenced, there will be Brandon; the 1998 Grey Cup; and, most a recognition at a specific event, a luncheon a recently, the World Junior Hockey little bit later this week, when individuals will be Championship which was the most successful recognized fo r their very specific and junior championship ever. All those things seem tremendous volunteer effort and contribution to to occur in a very short period of time. It is Manitoba. amazing the resiliency of volunteers in Manitoba that they continue to give over and over again to Never was the spirit of co-operation and benefit our province and also to show our community service more evident, however, than hospitality to the world. it was in our largest civil disaster in our province's history, and that was the flood of * (1730) 1997. With the assistance of tens of thousands of volunteers, Manitobans joined together with My colleague fo r Gladstone (Mr. Rocan) courage and with determination to assist fr iends mentioned the upcoming Pan American Games. and neighbours in this time of greatadvers ity. That is the third largest sporting event in history. April 19, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 431

I just wanted to pay some respect and some volunteers in terms of their concern with what is attention to those people who are volunteering, happening internationally at the moment with because many of those people began their the people of Kosovo. Manitobans very early volunteer effort three, fiveyears ago. They were stepped forward to say that they were prepared involved as volunteers to conceptualize what to offe r support to people from Kosovo, who was required. They were involved and may not yet be refugees but to whom Canada beginning to recruit volunteers years before the may be asked to in fact take to a safe sanctuary event, and they had to be able to explain and and allow those people to finally be returned gain a commitment. Manitobans did come home. As I think all members in the Chamber fo rward and agree to act as volunteers, and now know this effort is one which actually is being we are less than 95 days to those games. I organized by the United Nations, and Canada is believe that, again, the world will see Manitoba's responding. I think one of the important spirit of volunteerism and Manitoba's spirit of messages has been that Manitobans stepped right hospitality. up first and without being asked. There have been meetings with our settlement services Volunteers also play an integral role in organizations in Manitoba, organiza tions who providing an important community service work with refugees. I know that, should function as well. I would like to just give a few Manitoba then be called upon by the United examples. Volunteers are an important support Nations, Manitoba will be ready because our to Manitoba's multicultural community, and they volunteers are very heartfelt in wanting to help provide such vast services as supporting English people who are in these very desperate as a Second Language program. They work as situations. tutors and also as learning partners, serving as host to assist newcomers in understanding rules Madam Speaker, I would like to also speak and systems and cultures, committing to for a moment about the cultural boards, because sponsorship agreements to assist refugees on Manitoba is really known fo r its cultural activity. arrival. It has a reputation across Canada, and because of Manitoba would like to attract more the efforts of a number of our cultural immigrants, more immigration to our province. organizations, its reputation is, in fact, inter­ Not only do we wantto attract and increase our national. But the work that goes into organizing immigration, we also want those people to stay and setting up a system is often done by the here. In order to help them stay here, we have to cultural boards, and those people are volunteers. make sure that there is a system in place that will assist people in their settlement. Volunteers I have had the opportunity to meet with have had a very, very important role in our cultural boards across this province, both settlement services. That settlement service community boards, who are inspiring cultural being, as I said, to help people understand the activity within their own community, and the cultural and legal framework of Manitoba, as cultural boards, who support our major cultural well as, to assist them in simply getting settled organizations within the province. I know that and providing a friendship basis. they give a lot of time and that they spend a lot of their time working for the organization and Multicultural volunteers are also an also spreading the word about Manitoba's important component of the voluntary sector. wonderful cultural opportunities, so I would just They volunteer within their own cultural groups like to take a moment in speaking today to to support new arrivals and act as interpreters acknowledge the work that they do. and translators, volunteer in business and social service and education committees to improve I would also like to recognize those people language and employment skills. They support who work in recreation and fitness across the cultural awareness training for main street province. There are a lot of individuals who groups. come together within their region or municipality to support recreation councils. It is Madam Speaker, I think at this time it would through those recreation councils that there is a also be important to recognize the efforts of co-ordinated effort for a community then to have 432 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 19, 1999

recreation and fitness opportunities. These lead to come in and volunteer so that those seniors to a healthy lifestyle. These lead to an improved are still members of the community. quality of life, and these individuals do spend a lot of their time and effort on improving our People who volunteer in the hospital guilds. quality of living. I would like to give particular recognition to the Victoria Hospital Guild because that is an area I know that others have also spoken about that I represent, but I know that there are guilds volunteers in sport. I had the opportunity to in hospitals all across this province where there work with communities who are involved in is a great deal of effort and time made to make sport, not necessarily the elite side of Sport the life of people who need to be confined to a Manitoba, as has been spoken about before, but hospital fo r a short or a long time better. communities who are actually organizing themselves around community clubs fo r Volunteer training is important. Volunteer recreation, fitness and sport. I would like to recognition is important. We will be announcing recognize all of those individuals who spend a a method of recognition of volunteers across the lot of their time organizing hockey and ringette province, in co-operation with municipalities, in and aerobics and all of those sporting activities the very short while. that take place in neighbourhoods.

So, Madam Speaker, in closing, I would like I would also like to recognize those people to take this opportunity during National who work as volunteers on our historic and Volunteer Week to extend my appreciation to heritage projects across the province. It is the numerous individuals and the volunteer because there are Manitobans who really have a organizations throughout the province whose deep love of their history and their heritage, who contributions really do make Manitoba a great want to promote their heritage and who want place to live, to work and to raise a fam ily. other Manitobans to know and be able to - Thank you very much. appreciate where we came from and what the very valuable contributions of those who came Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): I am pleased to before us have made, that they then put a great rise in support of this motion proposed by my deal of their time into recognizing and honourable fr iend opposite, and with the preserving historic and heritage-sometimes it is amendment that was agreed to by all parties. I a building; sometimes it is a monument; think it is a strong recognition of the essence of sometimes it is a place. But they spend time in voluntarism in our society. making sure that we as Manitobans of today do not lose sight of what happened in the past. I would like to say that fo r that volunteer The honourable member who just spoke and community it is really a very vibrant and, it her colleague who spoke before her have listed a seems to me, growing community of volunteers, catalogue of volunteers, and there is not enough and I would I like to recognize them as well. time in any short speech to recognize the breadth and depth of volunteerism. So I would like to I would also like to recognize parents. We tum to the issue of the role of civil society and have spoken about parents and the role of what volunteers really mean in that context of a parents in terms of school, parent advisory democratic state. committees, the work that they do on behalf of their young person. Sometimes people are on * (1740) those committees and they do not have children in the school, but they are community volunteers The root of the word "volunteer" is a Latin who want to assist in the development of that word that talks about the will, that is, that it is particular community. people's will to do things as opposed to their being rewarded fo r doing them or their being People who volunteer in seniors homes. In fo rced to do them. The words "volunteer" and my community, we have seniors homes, and I "voluntary" and "volens" refer back to the root can tell you their door is open to the community word "for the will." April l9, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA . 433

I think that we perhaps misunderstand the I can just hear the howls of derision that degree to which our entire civil society rests on would have issued from the benches opposite the assumption that people have the will to take had an NDP government done such a thing. We part voluntarily in its shaping. A couple of would have been ridiculed as being state Lutheran sociologists, Peter Berger and Richard socialists, centralists. Yet, this government

than $1,500 a year, all of which comes entirely members of all parties on one common goal as from their own activities and efforts. That is we were working toward success. laudable. This little group has made a simply staggering difference in the sense of that So as we have this motion toward us today, I neighbourhood's ability to understand itself and would like to thank all the volunteers throughout act on its own behalf and in its own best interest. Manitoba, throughout Canada, who have helped to make this nation a great nation, who have So I commend to all members again the helped to make Manitoba and my community of book by John Rolston Saul, Reflections of a St. Norbert a place where I want to raise my Siamese Twin, as well as, Unconscious children. I want all members of this Chamber Civilization. In both of those books, he reflects today to pass this resolution brought fo rward by powerfully and with a great understanding of the member fo r Gladstone and spoken of so Canadian history how the very essence of our highly by all members in this Chamber today society is a voluntary essence. It is not simply and see that this motion goes fo rward. making things better by acting after hours as an extra. The nature of a democratic society is that So, Madam Speaker, thank you very much. people have a sense that they are voluntarily acting all the time to undergird and support their * (1750) democratic state and to make their society a fr ee one in which they live with dignity and have a Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): I rise to full and rich life. speak briefly on this resolution in support of this resolution from the member for Gladstone (Mr. That is the tribute I would pay to volunteers: Rocan), and we agreed to pass it at five to six, so that they understand and are committed to that I will be very brief. deep perception that a free society is a voluntary society and that we honour them fo r that sense - It is interesting that we have a motion that and for their commitment to maintaining and has the support of the government and the strengthening our democratic society through opposition, and I am sure that probably all of us their voluntary activities. Thank you, Madam here have had a great deal of experience as Speaker. MLAs or prior to becoming MLAs in the community as volunteers, and so all of us Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): support volunteerism in our community and Madam Speaker, I will be very brief. I would encourage our constituents to volunteer. like to thank the honourable member fo r Gladstone (Mr. Rocan) fo r bringing fo rward this However, there have been some trends in motion today, this resolution that speaks to the recent years in terms of volunteerism. For very fabric of Manitoba and Canada, this fabric example, when I was working at the North End which holds our country together, our province Community Ministry in the 1980s, there were together and helps us to be who we are as a about 35 volunteers there who were involved in nation. schools, and I am just going fr om memory here Madam Speaker, I asked the question to the in terms of the numbers, but they were working Grade 3 children the other day, I said: what is a one on one in five elementary schools in the volunteer< The answer was v�ed throughout inner city. the room, but there was one child who came back with: it is someone who cares; it is However, these people, most of whom were someone who shares. That was the part that women in their fifties and sixties, were part of really got to me, was the way they could the sandwich generation. Many of them had understand in Grade 3 how it was someone who children and grandchildren and they also had cared and shared. elderly parents that they had to look after, and Madam Speaker, they also said that the result was that every year had fewer of those volunteerism knew no boundaries. We saw that volunteers until eventually that particular - during the flood with us able to work with volunteer program disappeared because we were April 19, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 435

not able to recruit new volunteers to replace So with those few remarks, I will let the them. member fo r Inkster put some remarks on the record. Thank you. Now, interestingly, I was volunteering at the Old Spaghetti Factory a fe w years ago with one Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam of my colleagues from the government side of Speaker, we too want to see this particular the House, and we had lunch together after we resolution pass. It should be noted that whether volunteered, and we had a lengthy discussion it is the smallest micro of all communities or it is about volunteerism. It was his contention that the larger community as a whole, that being all there are thousands of volunteers out there and of Manitoba, it is the volunteers that will make that they are an untapped resource and there are or break it. We would ultimately suggest to you lots of people that we could draw on. that Manitoba likely has if not the highest, I challenge anyone to find another jurisdiction I said, no, I respectfully disagree because the where we have so many volunteers based on a traditional source of volunteers were women per capita. I think we are all overwhelmed, who worked at home unpaid and volunteered in whether they come out .in the droves such as the their spare time, and, now, because of changes in great flood that we had a couple of years back, society, about 60 to 65 percent of women are in and that is fo r the province as a whole uniting the paid workforce, and so that source of together, to the local community clubs, the volunteers is no longer available or as available parent councils. It is virtually endless. as it used to be. What we do know, Madam Speaker, is that Many organizations are having trouble our communities are successful when we get recruiting and retaining volunteers. For people volunteering to make life that much example, I was recently talking to the executive better fo r us. If the Pan Am Games is going to director of Meals on Wheels in Winnipeg, and be a success, as I believe it will be, it will be they have a great deal of trouble recruiting and because of the volunteers. We have seen huge retaining volunteers. They actually have a crisis successes in terms of the Grey Cup sponsoring. every year in January and February when so That, again, is because of volunteers. One could many Manitobans go south fo r a holiday, and go endlessly at all levels. especially retirees. So it is actually getting, I think, increasingly hard to attract volunteers. We, on behalf of the Liberal Party, applaud all of those that commit so willingly their time and efforts to so many good causes. We pay Now, that does not meanthat we should not special tribute to those individuals today in try, but I think we need to make horrendous recognition of this particular resolution. Thank efforts in order to recruit volunteers and train you. volunteers and show that they are appreciated so that they can continue to volunteer. I have Madam Speaker: Is it the will of the House to certainly done this in my constituency. I sent adopt the resolution? [agreed] out letters to almost my whole constituency to recruit volunteers for the adult literacy program Is it the will of the House to call it six at King Edward School, and I probably sent out, o'clock? [agreed] I do not know, 7,000 or 8,000 letters and got maybe two volunteers. Now, those individuals are very much appreciated by the adult literacy The hour being 6 p.m., this House is program, but it just shows how difficult it is to adjourned and stands adj ourned until 1 :30 p.m. recruit volunteers. tomorrow (Tuesday). LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Monday, Apri1 19, 1999

CONTENTS

ROUTINEPROCEEDINGS Manitoba Book Week McGifford 392 Introduction of Bills

Manitoba Moose Hockey Club Bill 12-The Statute Law McAlpine 393 Amendment Act, 1999 383

Growing Minds Conference Bill 17-The Elections Amendment Friesen 393 andElections Finances Amendment Act 392 Wilbert Funk Penner 393 Oral Questions Education System ORDERS OF THE DAY Doer, McCrae 383 Friesen; McCrae 384 Second Readings Growing Minds Conference Bill 2-The Electoral Divisions Friesen; Filmon 385 Amendment Act Gaming Facilities Filmon 394 Mihychuk; Praznik 385 Doer 396 Lamoureux 405 Health Care Facilities Ashton 410 Chomiak; Stefanson 386 Kowalski 420 Santos 42 1 Manitoba Hydro Lamoureux; Filmon 388 Private Members' Business Swan River Hospital Wowchuk; Stefanson 389 Proposed Resolutions Population Growth L. Evans; Gilleshammer 390 Res. 1-Volunteerism Rocan 424 Household Hazardous Waste Program Cerilli 427 Dewar; Mcintosh 391 Vodrey 429 Sale 432 Members' Statements Laurendeau 434 International Year of Older Persons- Martindale 434 Helwer 392 Lamoureux 435

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