NTLO YA DIKGOSI DEBATES

OFFICIAL REPORT - 9th MEETING OF THE 2nd NTLO YA DIKGOSI 18 - 22 June 2012 THE PROCEEDINGS

of the

9th MEETING

of the

2nd NTLO YA DIKGOSI (Official Report)

Sitting from 18 - 22 June 2012

i NTLO YA DIKGOSI CHAIRMAN Kgosi Puso Gaborone Batlokwa DEPUTY CHAIRMAN Kgosi Lotlamoreng II Barolong MEMBERS Kgosi K. Boiditswe Serowe Region Kgosi I. Gaoonwe Letlhakeng Region Kgosi B. Garebakwena Molepolole Region Kgosi M. Kahiko III Ghanzi West Kgosi S. H. Kgamane Bangwato Kgosi Kgari III Bakwena Kgosi K. Lempadi Okavango Region Kgosi O. Machilidza Boteti Region Kgosi M. Malema Bobirwa Region Kgosi Malope II Bangwaketse Kgosi T. M. Masunga North East Kgosi M. Mmualefhe Chobe Region Kgosi A. O. Monnaathebe Thamaga Kgosi P. K. Montshiwa Kgalagadi North Kgosi K. Moremi Batawana Kgosi S. Moroka Tswapong Kgosi J. Moseki Ghanzi East Kgosi T. B. Ndzonga Tutume Kgosi B. Ramokone Kanye Kgosi K. Ramokwena Maun Kgosi E. Potsoeng Ngami Region Kgosi M. Seboko Balete Kgosi P. Seeletso Tonota Region Kgosi P. Sekwenyane Ngwaketse West Kgosi K. Telekelo Moshupa Kgosi T. F. Tshipe Mahalapye Region Kgosi Toto II Kgalagadi South Kgosi S. Esterhuizen Specially Elected Kgosi M. Moeti II Specially Elected Kgosi M. Seemeko Specially Elected Kgosi M. M. Sinvula Specially Elected Kgosi T. Xao Specially Elected ii Secretary : N. Thebe

Ass. Secretary : M. Moreri

Layout : Badisa M. Morue Bakang B. Khumanego Dennis T. Batshegi E. Jean

Edited by : E. Jean Translated by : K. Nyanga K. Ben M. Kagiso B. Morakanyane

Typesetting : Hansard Reporters iii Table Of Contents

Chairman’s Remarks ...... 1, 45, 86, 108, 122 Questions For Oral Answer...... 2, 46, 87, 109, 122 Motions Computerised Voters Roll...... 15 Early Provision of Tractors to Chobe Enclave Farmers...... 16 Estasblishment of the Artificial Insemination Camp in the Pandamatenga Area...... 21 Foot and Mouth Eradication Policy...... 31 Branding of Donkeys...... 41 Compliance to Fishing Regulations...... 62 Decentralisation of Issuance of Mophane Worm Harvesting Licence...... 73 Packaging of Beverages in Plastic or Tin Containers...... 80 Inclusion of Children of Unmarried Men Under Leave Travel Concession...... 85, 146 Endorsing Blood Groups on Birth Certificates...... 98 Engaging of Private Company to Operate Railway Line Service...... 133

iv Monday 18th June, 2012 Chairman’s Opening Remarks

Monday 18th June, 2012 House. It is also for that reason that we had our briefings in the THE HOUSE met at 10 a.m. past week as a way of capacity (THE CHAIRPERSON in the building. Briefings are a way of Chair) giving Honourable Members feedback on Government P R A Y E R S Projects, Policies and whatever happens nationwide. This is * * * * a way of participating in the plans and programmes of the CHAIRMAN’S OPENING country. Another objective was REMARKS for Members to go on external MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI trips for benchmarking purposes PUSO GABORONE): so that we compare our processes Honourable Members of this with those of other countries. House, Cabinet Ministers and That gives us an opportunity to Government officers here know if we are on the right track present, the Media, I greet you in terms of management. We had all this morning. We are officially Members of this House visiting beginning the 9th Meeting of the the Lesotho Senate to benchmark Second Ntlo ya Dikgosi. This on their management style. is the midyear meeting which Recently, another delegation we could use to reflect on our went to Zimbabwe to attend a achievements since we had set workshop on the part played ourselves objectives to achieve by Bogosi Institution when in by the end of the year. You will terms of developments and the recall that at the beginning of nation at large. With these entire the year we set ourselves three benchmarking exercises in mind, objectives. One of them was to I believe Members will agree capacitate Members of this House with me that it is imperative in various areas. We have since for us to do some introspection attended a Change management as a House and look at our course at Botswana National contribution as advisors and Productivity Centre (BNPC) what we could do to improve our during the first meeting, so as to Procedures. The other objective keep abreast with the managing was for this House to participate of this House. I believe that the in national programmes. We have training will assist us with regard made a pledge to build a House to the way we grasp things in this for a destitute in Manyana, and

1 Monday 18th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer the project is ongoing. By the (i) if he is aware that gate end of this year the house will attendants at Ngoma and be handed over to the owner Sedudu gates require as a way of assisting the less drivers to alight from their privileged Batswana. We are vehicles to record their still liaising with the Ministry particulars in the register of Youth, Sport and Culture to elsewhere in the country see what we can do as a way of drivers are not required to contribution towards maintaining do so; if so; our culture. We have culture and language days being celebrated (ii) will the Minister regulate in this country. This shows that that the register as an our objectives are underway and alternative be completed by we still wish to do a lot more. drivers without alighting We will be here for the next five from vehicles for their days and in those days we will be convenience; and focusing on the business of the (iii) will he further regulate House which is questions and that the two gates operate motions. For this sitting, we have 24 hours to cater for 50 questions and 15 motions and emergencies of travel my expectation is that by the end outside the stipulated of this week we would have used hours. our time wisely and tackled all the business before us. Let me MINISTER OF welcome you to the 9th meeting A G R I C U L T U R E of the Second Ntlo ya Dikgosi (HONOURABLE DE and with that proceed with the GRAAFF): Mr Chairman, this is business of the House. purely an administrative matter. I QUESTIONS FOR ORAL therefore do not have to direct ANSWER the gatekeepers. I will however assign my officials to visit ALIGHTING OF DRIVERS Ngoma gate and appreciate what FROM THEIR VEHICLES the issue of concern is and put AT NGOMA AND SEDUDU necessary corrective action. With GATES regards to the gate operating KGOSI M. SINVULA twenty-four (24) hours, the (SPECIALLY ELECTED): arrangement is necessitated by asked the Minister of the flow of traffic. There has not Agriculture:- been need for a 24 hour operation.

2 Monday 18th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer

However in cases of emergencies in zone 2d and intervention to the gatekeepers always assist. I bring the situation under control thank you Mr Chairman. through the ongoing extensive surveillance in 2c and 2d, the two KGOSI SINVULA: Thank you zones are not eligible for export. Mr Chairman. Cattle that are eligible within the export eligible zones should MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you bear the respective zone brand Kgosi Sinvula. and the latest FMD vaccination SALE OF HEIFERS TO brands. The quality of animals AFRICAN COUNTRIES (that is breed, age, colour and weight) will be determined by KGOSI K. RAMOKWENA the buyer (exporter). Thank you (MAUN REGION): asked the Mr Chairman. Minister of Agriculture to state:- KGOSI MACHILIDZA: Thank (i) when the sale of live heifers you Mr Chairman. I did not to African countries will understand the Minister when commence; and he said the sale of heifers will depend on the exporter. What (ii) the logistics involved so does he mean by that? Are there that farmers can prepare people who have been given this themselves in advance. task of buying and exporting cattle to foreign countries? I MINISTER OF wanted him to be clear on that AGRICULTURE (HON DE one. Thank you Mr Chairman. GRAAFF): Mr Chairman, the exact date of commencement HONOURABLE DE GRAAFF: for sale of cattle to the countries Thank you Mr Chairman for that that have shown interest in supplementary. Indeed we have buying live heifers is highly appointed the Coordinator from dependent on the exporters. the Ministry of Agriculture who Therefore the specific date of will be at the buying point when commencement is difficult to farmers bring the cattle forward know. Cattle that are legible for to sell to the exporters. Thank live export should be resident you Mr Chairman. from subzones (2a and 2b) which had not had clinical FMD cases KGOSI LEMPADI: Thank you in the last six months. Due to Mr Chairman. Did the Minister the recent re-occurrence of FMD not deem it necessary to consult 3 Monday 18th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer us in our respective Dikgotla and Chairman. to brief us on this cattle export KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank mission to Angola rather than you Mr Chairman. Honourable having officers catch us unaware Minister, are you aware that all the and uninformed? Furthermore, supplementary questions asked where are the points situated relate to delays in consultation for these heifers to be exported as it appears that the process to Angola? Thank you Mr is ongoing without us being Chairman. consulted? This might lead some people unaware and unprepared HONOURABLE DE GRAAFF: especially since you state that all Thank you, Mr Chairman. Indeed this is due to commence soon. before exporting or even before Thank you Mr Chairman. we begin buying cattle, I will go around or assign my Assistant HONOURABLE DE GRAAFF: Minister to address Kgotla Mr Chairman, I do not think we meetings to explain the whole have delayed in consulting the process to the farmers. We will farmers. Even before this, we also come up with a programme had called a series of Kgotla to ensure that all farmers in the meetings. We have even met with area will know when and where different farmers’ associations the cattle exporters are going to to explain the export of live buy. With regard to the exporting animals. Consultation did happen of cattle to Angola, indeed I have even with different farmers led a delegation to Angola where association in Ngamiland. Thank we met and talked about the export you Mr Chairman. of live animals as well as animal products. We have continued to KGOSI RAMOKWENA: talk to them and even sent letters Thank you Mr Chairman, the to my counterpart there to come Members have covered all my and meet with me. I believe that questions. very soon we are going to present UPGRADING OF THE our beef in Angola. Actually MAUN ABATTOIR CHILL the export of beef to Angola ROOMS has already started and we are now talking to the Democratic KGOSI K. RAMOKWENA Republic of Congo (DRC) and (MAUN REGION): asked other countries about export the Minister of Agriculture if of live animals. Thank you Mr he will consider upgrading the 4 Monday 18th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer

Maun Abattoir chill rooms to the slaughter capacity of 100 accommodate the slaughter animals. capacity of 100 animals per day. HONOURABLE DE MINISTER OF GRAAFF: Mr Chairman, as AGRICULTURE (HON DE I have explained, roughly our GRAAFF): Thank you Mr chillers or rather the capacity of Chairman. The Maun abattoir was the Maun Abattoir is between 80 designed to slaughter 100 cattle and 120 cattle per day. However a day of 200 kg average Cold because of the size of the animals Dress Mass (CDM). Due to lack and also due to the fact that the of marketing facilities in Maun, abattoir has been closed for over for over 12 years, the ready- 12 years, the size of the animals to-slaughter cattle have grown that come in is much heavier than large, yielding CDM of about we had anticipated. I recently 260 kg (that is the average that visited the abattoir myself and is now being slaughtered through for the day, the average of the abattoir). Such high CDM the carcasses was about 380 means that the abattoir chillers slaughter weight. That is why can only accommodate about 75 the chillers cannot accommodate carcases in a day. Until several 120 cattle. However as I said, key challenges facing the abattoir the main challenge for us is to can be resolved, such as ongoing market the beef. Thank you Mr sporadic outbreaks of Foot-and- Chairman. Mouth Disease, accessibility of product into various markets KGOSI MACHILIDZA: Thank and power and water supply you Mr Chairman. The Minister interruptions, capacity upgrading has just said that they are trying of the abattoir cannot be a key to market these cattle to other business consideration. I thank African countries. If countries you Mr Chairman. can show interest in buying such carcasses, what would you do? KGOSI LEMPADI: Honourable Minister, we have been told by Kgosi Ramokwena was trying the BMC employees that the to say that you must be prepared chill room cannot accommodate for this market? How would you the slaughter capacity of 100 respond if about seven countries animals per day. That is why are interested in buying the we request the extension of the carcasses? Thank you. abattoir in order to accommodate

5 Monday 18th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer

HONOURABLE DE GRAAFF: (EU). If there is need for us to Thank you Mr Chairman. I slaughter more cattle and market am very much aware that the our beef then we can look at other current capacity of Ngamiland alternatives like to quarantine is roughly 300,000 cattle. At the our cattle in Ngamiland and then moment it is about 400,000 plus, slaughter them in Francistown. so the area is over populated with However, we can only look at more than 100,000 cattle. This is that once we have established a why we are working around the market for the red zones. Thank clock to get alternative markets you Mr Chairman. for Ngamiland and other red zones. On Friday, I came back DIFFERENCES IN SCOPE from Zimbabwe where I met my OF DUTIES OF HEADMEN counterpart and negotiated with OF ARBITRATION WHO him for us to export beef as well ARE EMPLOYED ON as live animals from red zones. I PERMANENT BASIS AND thank you Mr Chairman. THOSE ON ALLOWANCES KGOSI RAMOKWENA: KGOSI K. RAMOKWENA Thank you Mr Chairman. Is (MAUN REGION): asked the the Minister aware that the pot Minister of Local Government that was being used by BMC to state the difference in scope of has been out of order to date? duties of Headmen of Arbitration Can the Minister explain what who are employed on permanent the problem is concerning that basis and those on allowances. warmer or a big pot (I do not know what to call it)? Thank you ASSISTANT MINISTER OF Mr Chairman. LOCAL GOVERNMENT (HON MOTOWANE): Thank HONOURABLE DE GRAAFF: you Mr Chairman. There is no Mr Chairman, we can address it difference in scope of duties of in different ways. As I said, our Headmen of Arbitration employed main challenge is to market the on permanent basis and those beef from a red zone. We are also receiving a monthly allowance. looking at exporting live animals. Mr Chairman, I wish to remind We are working round the clock the House that the provision for an alternative market. This of appointment of Headmen of will be a second option because Arbitration on permanent basis the Francistown Abattoir is was phased out in 2002. All those designated for European Union appointed after 2002 receive a

6 Monday 18th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer monthly allowance, which is H O N O U R A B L E equivalent to the salary of those MOTOWANE: Thank you Mr employed on a permanent basis. Chairman. Like I have already Headmen of Arbitration who are stated, the expectation was for still employed on a permanent these two to have the same basis are on a personal right working hours. I still maintain status, which will fall away upon that if there are gaps in this vacation of offices. Thank you arrangement; we are to follow Mr Chairman. up the matter and establish the gaps and give this House proper KGOSI KAHIKO III: Can the feedback on what may be the Minister explain this to me; when cause, and what measures are you talk about their line of duty, to be taken in addressing those does that mean that those who are if there are any. Thank you Mr on allowance still work for two Chairman. days in a week? Are their hours KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II: of work different from those who Thank you Mr Chairman. We are permanent and pensionable? get the Minister’s response that the expectation is that they have H O N O U R A B L E the same hours of work. When it MOTOWANE: Thank you Mr comes to these uniform hours of Chairman. The expectation is work, does the Minister mean the that their hours of work remain two days or five days because the the same. If Kgosi is aware fact remains that the two do not of any differences then let me have the same hours of work and request that we make a follow up even their days to report for duty on the matter so that we establish are different. the cause of these gaps. H O N O U R A B L E MOTOWANE: Let me request KGOSI MACHILIDZA: Is this Honourable House I will the Minister saying that those give a detailed response to the Headmen on permanent and two and five day period of work pensionable basis should just after the matter has been further work for two days in a week? We looked into. The expectation want you to be clear, that they was that there should be no gap must work for two days as those between the two groups but since who are on allowance. Thank it has been noted that it exists, you Mr Chairman. my request is that I should be 7 Monday 18th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer given time to further investigate if we were aware that some of the the matter and provide a proper Headmen of Arbitration work for response. Thank you Mr two days when we responded to Chairman. the question. Honestly, I was not aware that there were some who KGOSI RAMOKWENA: worked for a shorter period of Maybe the Honourable Minister time. Like I have stated, we will responded to the question get to the bottom of the matter and unaware of the fact that Headmen give proper feedback following of Arbitration paid on permanent the structure that is in place to and pensionable basis work provide the response before the five days in a week and those end of this week. Thank you Mr who are on allowance, work Chairman. for two days but carry the same job description. Let me request KGOSI RAMOKWENA: the Minister to treat this matter Thank you Mr Chairman and urgently and determine the thank you Minister. number of days which should be worked by both parties and if in MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable another way... Minister, this is not the first time this question has been asked, MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi and I had thought that today we Ramokwena, what is the would be told if the gap is there question? or not. Let me request that the KGOSI RAMOKWENA: I had response you are promising, asked the question initially when should clearly outline the duties I began my statement. and hours of work. My concern is that we are repeating questions MR CHAIRMAN: What is it and there is no progress made that you asking the Honourable whatsoever. We will adjourn for Minister? Please ask the tea and resume at 11:00 o’clock. question. PROCEEDINGS KGOSI RAMOKWENA: I SUSPENDED FOR TEA wanted to ask the Minister the question I stated earlier on. Let MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI me not add anything else. GABORONE): Welcome back from the tea break Honourable H O N O U R A B L E Members and Honourable MOTOWANE: Thank you Mr Ministers. We will proceed with Chairman. Kgosi wanted to know the business of the House. 8 Monday 18th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer

APPOINTMENT ASSISTANT MINISTER OF OF HEADMAN OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT ARBITRATION TO ACT AS (HON MOTOWANE): Thank A HEADMAN OF RECORD you Mr Chairman. My Ministry KGOSI K. RAMOKWENA acknowledges the valuable (MAUN REGION): asked the voluntary contribution made Minister of Local Government by large numbers of unpaid to state if the law permits a Headmen of Arbitration across Headman of Arbitration to be appointed to act as a Headman of the country. Regrettably, given Record. the current economic difficulties, my Ministry does not have ASSISTANT MINISTER OF financial resources to pay the LOCAL GOVERNMENT P400 monthly allowances (HON MOTOWANE): Thank requested. I however wish to you Mr Chairman. The Headman inform the Honourable House of Arbitration is an administrative arrangement which has been that my Ministry is committed to introduced to facilitate the a long term strategy of addressing delivery of specific basic the payment of Headmen of services. There is therefore no Arbitration who are currently legal provision for a Headman of unpaid. This includes a phased Arbitration to act as a Headman approach of absorbing a limited of Record. Thank you number at a time, depending on KGOSI K. RAMOKWENA the availability of funds. I thank (MAUN REGION): Thank you you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman. KGOSI M. S. MALEMA PAYMENT FOR (BOBIRWA REGION): Thank UNPAID HEADMEN OF you Mr Chairman. ARBITRATION ACKNOWLEDGEMENT ON KGOSI M. S. MALEMA THE APPOINTMENT AND (BOBIRWA REGION): asked PAYMENT OF MASUNGA the Minister of Local Government WARD HEADMAN if he will consider paying unpaid Headmen of Arbitration at KGOSI M. T. MASUNGA least P400.00 as they assist at (NORTH EAST DISTRICT): the Kgotla whenever they are asked the Minister of Local required. Government to state:-

9 Monday 18th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer

i) why correspondence on the not been acknowledged to date, appointment and payment together with the one regarding of Masunga Ward Headman the Masunga and Butale ward has not been acknowledged headman. to date; and H O N O U R A B L E ii) why correspondence on MOTOWANE: Thank you Mr acting appointment of Chairman. Even though I will same positions from the not say much on the Butale Districts usually take long ward issue, I do understand to acknowledge. Kgosi Masunga, but let me take this time to apologise for ASSISTANT MINISTER OF the delays in responding to the LOCAL GOVERNMENT correspondences. I will make (HON MOTOWANE): Mr sure that I attend to that delay Chairman, I acknowledge that in order for the correspondence there has been a delay by my to reach Kgosi in a short time. Ministry in making a formal Thank you Mr Chairman. response to the Masunga Ward Headman submission as well as KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank on the acting appointment of the you Mr Chairman. I wanted to Masunga Headman of Record. remind the Minister that I am The acting appointment for the not a Sub Chief, I am a Chief. post of Sub-Chief by the Masunga The second issue is that, the Headman of Record for 12th correspondence is with regards March 2012 to 10th April 2012 has to the Butale and Masunga wards been approved. I however wish and this correspondence reads to inform the Honourable House thus: “Since the residents of the that the request for payment of ward declined to convene and the Masunga Ward Headman resolve the matter indefinitely, will be considered in future therefore we request to take this alongside others, depending on money and use it to pay the other the availability of funding for one while those resolve their these positions. Thank you. matter.” Thank you.

KGOSI MASUNGA: I would H O N O U R A B L E like to know if my correspondence MOTOWANE: Thank you on the proposal has been received Mr Chairman. On the last part, by the department and why it considering the loan from one is that the correspondence has ward to the other, I would like to

10 Monday 18th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer apologise for any delays caused. Assistant Tribal Secretary I promise that the response will from Masunga to Kanye at be availed to Kgosi, I am not the eleventh hour; and saying that the response will be iii) how many times this a negative or positive one but particular officer requested it will be availed soon because for transfer on the basis of it is evident that there has been family obligations at home delays. If I referred to Kgosi as but was denied the request. Sub Chief, let me also apologise for that because all Members of ASSISTANT MINISTER OF this House are Dikgosi, it was a LOCAL GOVERNMENT slip of the tongue and probably (HON MOTOWANE): caused by the misunderstanding Thank you Mr Chairman. of who is acting and for which The criteria for transferring post. We apologise for that officers in the Department of Mr Chairman. Thank you Mr Tribal Administration is to send Chairman relevant officers with requisite KGOSI MASUNGA: There qualifications, experience and is no problem Honourable capabilities to a place where Minister. the demand of the vacant post calls for such requirements as CRITERIA FOR possessed by the officer being TRANSFERRING transferred. The transfer of the OFFICERS IN THE Assistant Tribal Secretary from DEPARTMENT OF TRIBAL Masunga to Kanye has not been ADMINISTRATION withdrawn but deferred. The officer who will be moving to KGOSI M. T. MASUNGA Masunga has requested that she (NORTH EAST DISTRICT): should be allowed to move after To ask the Minister of Local her child has completed writing Government to explain to this the Form 5 examinations at the Honourable House:- end of this year. This request was agreed to and the decision i) what the criteria for communicated to the Tribal transferring officers in Secretary in Masunga to inform the Department of Tribal the Assistant Tribal Secretary Administration is; accordingly. The Assistant ii) what informed the decision Tribal Secretary’s transfer from to withdraw the transfer of Masunga to Kanye therefore 11 Monday 18th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer still stands but has only been is what causes the delay in filling delayed by a few months. This a post after one officer has been particular officer i.e. the Assistant transferred to a different station? Tribal Secretary requested for We have to consider the stations, transfer on the basis of family their workloads and the need obligations at home four (4) for an officer to be at the station times, on the 15th August 2007, they are being transferred to. A 22nd November 2007, 4th May decision is then taken to transfer 2010 and 4th November 2010. At an officer from point A to point B the time of these requests, it was after considering an officer to fill not possible to grant the officer’s in the post at point A. It is a result requests as there were a lot of of the work load that officer has other cases, some very critical, looking at the two concerned that needed to be considered stations. Let me cite an example alongside this particular Assistant Kgosi, let us say that region A Tribal Secretary’s requests. Mr has a Tribal Secretary and an Chairman, there are a lot of Assistant Tribal Secretary and officers who request for transfers region B does not have a Tribal based on obligations at home like Secretary and even a Deputy or the officer in question, some for Assistant Tribal Secretary, this health related issues and various is where the other area takes other deserving reasons and each priority over the other one, not case is dealt with on its own necessarily meaning that the merits alongside many deserving other job is important than the ones. I thank you, Mr Chairman. other, we have to assist where KGOSI LEMPADI: A very there is an urgent need before short question to the Minister, anything else. Thank you Mr what causes the delay in filling Chairman. the vacant post created upon the KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank transfer of officers you Mr. Chairman. Honourable H O N O U R A B L E Minister, there are allegations MOTOWANE: Thank you that when an officer asks for Mr Chairman. The Masunga a transfer in writing and the Assistant Tribal Secretary response is delayed, they will be wanted to swap with the one at informed that they may move to Kanye but due to the reasons I the station they have requested already stated, the process was and the response will be sent not possible. Now the question to them thereafter. It is alleged

12 Monday 18th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer that at times when the response reasons, some of those reasons comes; it would be to send the are social as it is the case with officer back to their original the concerned officer. There station. Are these allegations true are some compelling reasons Honourable Minister? Thank Mr like health among others. Like Chairman I said earlier on, we consider all the reasons alongside others, H O N O U R A B L E we look at the social and health MOTOWANE: With all due reasons and determine which respect Mr Chairman, I cannot one takes precedence over the respond to allegations. I am not other. Obviously, health issues even aware of those allegations take precedence over the social and I do not know if they bear any ones. The officer who had truth. Thank you Mr Chairman. requested transfer on social basis would feel that they have not KGOSI MASUNGA: Is been considered because things the Minister aware that the did not go according to their concerned officer is worried to an expectations. Mr Chairman, this extent that she thought of retiring is a large nation, we have many because her reasons for seeking officers with so many different that transfer were not considered challenges. In that case, it is on four occasions dating as possible that she may have felt far back as 2007. Are you also ignored at that time when her aware that I am one of the people application was not considered. who recommended her transfer? However, she should just keep Thank you Mr Chairman. the faith that her transfer will H O N O U R A B L E come through because currently MOTOWANE: Thank you Mr the officer in Kanye is only Chairman. I am sorry that the waiting for her child to complete her examination then the swop concerned officer has thought of will fall through. Thank you Mr retiring. I was not aware of that Chairman. situation and I cannot dispute that. As for the rejection on the four KGOSI MASUNGA: My very occasions she sought transfer, I last question Mr Chairman. Was have clearly stated the reasons it appropriate for the officer to for her transfer request being be told that the transfer could turned down. The main reason not fall through at the eleventh is that many officers request for hour? Is it good office conduct transfers and they have different Honourable Minister? Regarding 13 Monday 18th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer the correspondence that was sent officer she is swapping with has to the concerned officer, were a child who is yet to complete the reasons clearly stated for her their examinations. However, postponement of the transfer? the Assistant Tribal Secretary’s Were these reasons also availed to transfer remains approved. Thank the other officer who is stationed you Mr Chairman. at Kanye? I do think that we have the correspondence outlining MR CHAIRMAN: We have the reasons for the delay of the completed our questions for the transfer. Thank you. day and we move on with the Order paper. H O N O U R A B L E MOTOWANE: Thank you INCLUSION OF CHILDREN Mr Chairman. Through you OF UNMARRIED MEN Mr Chairman, I may wish to UNDER LEAVE TRAVEL quote part of the answer I gave CONCESSION earlier, “this request to move to Motion Kanye was agreed to and the decision communicated to the KGOSI KAHIKO III Tribal Secretary in Masunga (GHANZI WEST RGION): Mr to inform the Assistant Tribal Chairman, let me thank you this Secretary accordingly”. We morning. I am here to present my trust that in communicating with motion which has taken a year in the Tribal Secretary she should this House but I do not know if have communicated that to the there is anyone who will respond concerned officer. We take it that to this motion. the concerned officer informed MR CHAIRMAN: Just a the Tribal Secretary about her minute, Kgosi Kahiko. application for transfer and she should have been given a KGOSI LOTLAMORENG response. If that was not the case, II: I believe this motion is to then we regret it. In conclusion, be responded to by the Minister since this issue is handled by the for Presidential Affairs and office of Kgosi, I believe that all Public Administration. Let us the correspondence might be at confirm if he is here to respond the office. The request for the to the motion. Thank you Mr transfer of this assistant Tribal Chairman. Secretary has been approved and the only delay is that it has not MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you come into effect yet because the Kgosi Lotlamoreng II. I have 14 Monday 18th June, 2012 Computerised Voters Roll noticed that there is no one KGOSI LOTLAMORENG representing the Ministry of II: Pardon me Mr Chairman. Presidential Affairs and Public It will appear like we are being Administration amongst the unkind to the Minister for Ministers present. Presidential Affairs and Public Administration. We have tried KGOSI KAHIKO III: We will to talk to the Minister regarding defer the motion as is the norm. the way he treats this House. We are not being vindictive but MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you he is rather the one who is being Kgosi Kahiko III, it is requested unreasonable. This has resulted in that this motion should be us working with him the way we deferred to a later date since the currently are. I want to assume Minister is not in to respond to that even you Mr Chairman do the motion. not know the whereabouts of the Minister. We have tried talking Motion Deferred. to him but it seems he does not COMPUTERISED VOTERS want to listen to us. On behalf of ROLL the Members of Ntlo ya Dikgosi, I request you Mr Chairman Motion to ask for assistance from the Honourable Ministers present KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH here so that they talk to him. EAST DISTRICT): Thank Alternatively they could talk to you Mr Chairman. I would like his supervisors so that they know to make an amendment to this that he is not working with us to motion so that it reads as it was our expectations and he is not originally sent even though I can treating us well. We want to work see that the responsible Minister well with him. Please request is not around to respond to it. his colleagues at the Ministry It falls under the Ministry of of Presidential Affairs to talk to him because it might appear that Presidential Affairs and Public we are not doing right by him Administration. Thank you Mr when we inform him of how Chairman. uncooperative he is to us. Thank you MR CHAIRMAN: Before we could make an amendment it MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you appears that the Minister is not Kgosi Lotlamoreng II, we note around to respond to it. that request, we have channels 15 Monday 18th June, 2012 Early Provision of Tractors to Chobe Enclave Farmers of communication to route our Motion-Deferred. grievances. Let us move on. ESTABLISHMENT OF KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank A FAMILY AFFAIRS you Mr Chairman. I request this MINISTRY motion to read as thus... Motion MR CHAIRMAN: I do not know if Kgosi Masunga has MR CHAIRMAN: Is the understood me; since the Minister around? Minister is not around to respond KGOSI MASUNGA: Mr to this motion, it will not do us Chairman, this motion is to be any good to amend the motion. responded to by the Minister for Let me request that you defer Presidential Affairs and Public this motion to a later date so Administration. Like Kgosi that when we amend the motion Lotlamoreng II has said, all the we will be sure that we shall be motions today for this Ministry debating it in the House. will not be debated. Thank you. KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you you Mr Chairman. Kgosi Masunga, with that this MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you motion stands deferred to a later Kgosi Masunga. date.

Motion Deferred. Motion-Deferred.

ESTABLISHMENT OF AN EARLY PROVISION OF ELECTORAL TRIBUNAL TRACTORS TO CHOBE ENCLAVE FARMERS Motion Motion KGOSI MASUNGA: Mr Chairman, I believe that the MR CHAIRMAN: Is the Minister is still not in. Thank Minister responsible for this you. motion around?

MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you KGOSI SINVULA Kgosi Masunga, the Minister is (SPECIALLY SELECTED): not in and it therefore means that Thank you Mr Chairman, I we defer the motion to a later present the motion which reads date. thus, “that this Honourable House 16 Monday 18th June, 2012 Early Provision of Tractors to Chobe Enclave Farmers requests Government to consider MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you. providing farmers in the Chobe Kgosi Sinvula has just presented Enclave with tractors in August his motion before this House. since their planting season starts I will therefore give Members early”. The motion is as short as the floor to debate the motion as that, it requests the Government presented. to provide farmers in the Chobe Enclave with tractors earlier than KGOSI MACHILIDZA the normal ploughing season. In (BOTETI REGION): Thank the Chobe Enclave we plough you Mr Chairman. I stand to along the river banks and when support the motion presented by the rivers dry up we struggle my colleague. We are all aware to get the moisture in the soil. that Chobe is the best place in Sometimes provision of tractors Botswana in terms of Agricultural is delayed because the Ministry production, so much that the treats the Chobe Enclave the same Government relies mostly on as other regions in Botswana. places like Pandamatenga for Other regions have loam soils farming. Despite that, we focus whereas we do not have, that more on the weather forecast is why we plough early around by the weather bureau as Kgosi August. I therefore request that has said. I believe that the we should be provided with those weather forecasts should be done tractors during August. Last year according to the regions because the provision of tractors was I know that Gantsi South and delayed and they were not in a North differ. In my region the good condition when they came ploughing season ends around which made it impossible for us the 15th February. We also to use them. We were only lucky plough along the river banks. because I had my own tractor When the floods subside, we take which I used to plough and later advantage and plough even if it has not rained. These are some gave to my community to use of the things we should consider. especially at the Parakarungu and If the whole country is being Satau areas. Let these tractors be treated the same when it comes provided on time so that we do to this issue then other regions not lose the moist soil before we will be disadvantaged, they will could even plough. That is all I not be ploughing at the right time want to say Mr Chairman. Thank which might drive them to give you Mr Chairman. up ploughing altogether. I believe

17 Monday 18th June, 2012 Early Provision of Tractors to Chobe Enclave Farmers that those of us who reside by have completed the work in rivers are aware of this situation. Chobe, they can be used in other Kgosi is telling the truth, we areas even though it is costly plough along the river bank. to transport them. They could We actually treat it as irrigation be used in Chobe during their system, although it is not like the ploughing season and be returned conventional irrigation methods. around the normal November to I think the Minister should see to December season of ploughing. it that he helps not only Chobe I think they would have covered or Parakarungu, he should also much ground by then. Even consider the Boteti area because though wild animals destroy we share the same problem. their fields, I believe that they When the river is flooded like still have interest in ploughing now, it is the best time to help because they depend on farming us. I support the motion Mr and their land is very fertile. The Chairman and would like to area is well known for producing add that actually it is a matter good and nutritious maize. This of allowing privately owned request should be considered Mr tractors to plough for the farmers Chairman. Thank you. earlier. As soon as they finish ploughing in Chobe, they could KGOSI BOIDITSWE also come to our area. I think the (SEROWE REGION): Mr community will welcome such Chairman, Kgosi Ramokwena an arrangement. I thank you Mr has covered what I wanted Chairman. I support the motion. to touch on. Thank you Mr Thank you. Chairman.

KGOSI RAMOKWENA KGOSI MMUALEFHE (MAUN REGION): Thank (CHOBE REGION): Thank you Mr Chairman. I support you Mr Chairman. I also stand to the motion because the mover support Kgosi Sinvula’s motion of the motion is certain of as we come from the same area. what he talking about since it We request that the number of is his region. They know when tractors should be increased to their ploughing season begins. four since we would like to plough Perhaps the Minister should also when there is still moisture in the consider deploying the tractors soil. The problem I see in this that are meant to be used in other case is lack of due diligence from areas to Chobe since their season the officers who manage these starts early. Once the tractors tractors. They are always late and

18 Monday 18th June, 2012 Early Provision of Tractors to Chobe Enclave Farmers we lag behind. I would like to so that farmers should practice request the Minister to look into Molopo farming and they should this matter and correct it. We are be assisted on time starting from led to believe that there is lack the 2012/13 cropping season. of resources while in actual fact Mr Chairman, indeed I agree these resources are mismanaged, with the Honourable Kgosi. that is my concern Mr Chairman. I think we are now in our 30 I support the motion and urge years of implementation of the Minister to note this and try the ISPAAD Programme. So to talk to his officers so that they far the results have been good, deliver promptly and distribute farmers beneficiaries have been the tractors accordingly. Thank improved from 100 to 120 000 you Mr Chairman. farmers. Hectares have been increased from roughly 100 to MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you about 400 000 hectares. Even our Kgosi Mmualefhe. I do not see yields have increased and food any hands; I will therefore call production has nearly tripled on the Honourable Minister to in this country under ISPAAD. respond to the motion. Because of the good results, we MINISTER OF are also going to roll it out now to AGRICULTURE (HON DE- horticulture farmers. I will even GRAAFF): Thank you Mr encourage Honourable Dikgosi Chairman. Indeed we support as early as now to encourage our this motion. The Chobe area has farmers to start registering for been allocated 4 tractors, 3x4 the inputs. That is to guide us on row mechanical planters, 1x4 the quantities of feeds they want row minimum tillage dripper and even on the varieties or seeds planter, 4x3 furrow desk ploughs, they want. 3 heavy duty cultivators, 2 draper tractor and 3 disc harrows under I have just mentioned the Integrated Support Programme for equipment we are keeping Arable Agriculture Development in Chobe under our ISPAAD (ISPAAD). However, tractors programme but we also engage and associated equipments are the private sector to do the not always available to farmers ploughing and planting on on time due to the shortage our behalf and as back-up. of tractor operators. The Government bought 60 tractors Department will source tractor especially for that area where operators from other departments there are no tractor owners. We

19 Monday 18th June, 2012 Early Provision of Tractors to Chobe Enclave Farmers try to take these back up tractors owned and the Government to the high production areas and tractors early in this river bed indeed the Chobe area is one of for ploughing as Honourable them. I agree with the motion Ramokwena has advised, then we Honourable Chairperson because can use them in other areas when in the Molopo valleys, you must their ploughing season starts. We plant earlier while the soil is still have gone across the country moist. That is why I answered to make sure that we educate and said we will try our best farmers and even tractor owners to make sure that equipment is to do the ploughing and planting brought on time and also engage on time. We also go out and try the private sector. We have even to encourage the farmers to plant called workshops this year, across the right crops, especially in the country to encourage private areas where we feel we get lesser tractor owners to have their rainfall like Kgalagadi district. tractors in a better condition for Even our raining period is shorter, this ploughing season. Even in so instead of maize, go for beans, my Kgotla meetings, I encourage pulses, water melons and others. them. We are paying them We support this motion, and we roughly P400 for ploughing and will do our best to make sure the additional 150 for the planting ploughing and planting starts on but we are worried about the time. I have called meetings with my senior Government officials conditions of the tractors just to make sure that our tractors are as the Honourable Dikgosi, in good condition because that is especially the private ones. very important. Thank you Mr Chairman. Honourable Chairperson, privately owned tractors are not KGOSI SINVULA in a good condition in most cases. (SPECIALLY ELECTED): They are usually parked on top of Thank you Mr Chairman. I anthills because they do not have am grateful that the Minister batteries and they are difficult has seen reason to my motion and the reasons that I have to start. When they eventually provided together with those start, they plough for one or who supported it. I take it that he two hours then break down. It knows what causes the delay and is true that we have got limited I will not say anything further. time to do the ploughing and the Thank you Honourable Minister planting, Honourable Members. for the response, and thank you If we could get both the privately Mr Chairman.

20 Monday 18th June, 2012 Estasblishment of the Artificial Insemination Camp in the Pandamatenga area MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you in this region. This is why I have Kgosi Sinvula. Hope you have brought the motion to the House heard the Minister when he said so that we have the Artificial that you should encourage people insemination Camp in the to start registering so that they Pandamatenga area for our cattle have an idea of how many people as most farmers are there. It is a they are dealing with to assist moist area which is suitable for in catering for them in terms of both livestock farming and cattle resources. I will now conclude feeding. That is why I request the motion by determining those that if we could be given some who agree and those who do not. land we could establish such a As many as are of that opinion camp in the Pandamatenga area, say, “AYE”; on the contrary say Mr Chairman. We do not have “NO”. anything for upgrading our cattle, as you are also aware Honourable Question put and agreed to. Members. I normally do not to ESTASBLISHMENT take long in my presentations OF THE ARTIFICIAL as I only focus on important INSEMINATION CAMP IN points. Honourable Members THE PANDAMATENGA could assist in convincing the AREA Minister of this need in our area. That would be all Mr Chairman. Motion Thank you.

KGOSI SINVULA KGOSI LEMPADI (SPECIALLY ELECTED): (OKAVANGO REGION): I Thank you Mr Chairman. I have stand to support this motion. another motion which reads thus, Artificial Insemination is of “that this Honourable House great importance because it is requests Government to establish expensive to buy a bull. They an Artificial Insemination camp in range from P10 000 going up. the Pandamatenga area since there If we could have this kind of a is availability of land and water.” camp then most Batswana would Mr Chairman, I have realised that when it comes to cattle farming be assisted. In the Kgomokgwana or any other form of farming, area, we have quarantines where our area is still lagging behind. these Artificial Insemination We should upgrade our cattle camps could be established. With for better profits when selling, those few words, I support this even if we do not have a market motion. Thank you. 21 Monday 18th June, 2012 Estasblishment of the Artificial Insemination Camp in the Pandamatenga area KGOSI KAHIKO III will be responsible for these (GHANZI WEST REGION): cattle should also be catered for. Thank you Mr Chairman. I also To make things easy, we should stand to support this motion. understand as farmers that we The quality of livestock in the have to defend the economy. If Chobe Enclave is very low. If Kgosi is referring to these mobile the Government could agree to Artificial Insemination clinics this motion and establish this which the Government has camp, it could help to upgrade been talking about, then I agree the livestock in that area so that with him. This is where other the farmers can make profit when farmers will make their feedlots selling their livestock. Currently and then this mobile Artificial the livestock in that area is of Insemination clinic visits them poor quality but it is difficult to reduce costs. The Government for farmers to buy bulls. In our will easily assist instead of area, a bull will be about P36 000 starting something new. The other to P50 000. If the Government alternative would be to make a bull subsidy for farmers. This could agree to this motion, it will would assist farmers to upgrade solve all the problems we have. their cattle. I am not against the I support this motion. Thank you motion Honourable Members Mr Chairman. but I am proposing an alternative KGOSI MACHILIDZA for the Minister to assist the (BOTETI REGION): Thank people in the Chobe Enclave. Mr Chairman, we all know that you Mr Chairman. Let me also Chobe is a predominantly Foot thank the mover of the motion and Mouth Disease area, that Kgosi Sinvula. The request for is why they do not have many an Artificial Insemination camp cattle. is relevant as it will upgrade the livestock of the people living My argument is that the Minister in the Chobe Enclave. Motions should consider other angles such like these need statistics to make as coming up with quarantines them stronger, for example and subsidies for bulls. Some he could state the number of farmers, like Keith Manga,own cattle in that area. Statistics are teaser bulls, which detect when a very important in establishing a cow is on heat. This could help facility. There must be a place reduce costs as farmers would where these cattle are going to be grouped at a particular place be quarantined; the staff that where all these will be done. I am 22 Monday 18th June, 2012 Estasblishment of the Artificial Insemination Camp in the Pandamatenga area not saying that I do not support I believe that the Chobe area is the motion, I do support it but I already at an advantage because have my own views; those are they have been given the power some of the options that can make to come up with Trusts. Some of it possible for the Chobe Enclave the best performing Trusts in the farmers to be assisted. With that country are found in the Chobe Mr Chairman, I will take my seat. District. Secondly, those Trusts Thank you Mr Chairman. can reinvest the money they get to develop alternative sources of KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH revenue for themselves. EAST DISTRICT): Thank you The third point is the Mr Chairman. For the Minister’s Pandamatenga arable land sake, I will speak in English. development. All in all, I will say Mr Chairman, I do not agree the district is already endowed with this motion, for the simple with many available resources. reasons that Chobe Enclave It will be in the interest of the or the Chobe District has been nation to take this particular identified as a tourist destination. initiative to another region or I believe the number of cattle in another place in the country so the Chobe District; for a start is that they can benefit. For now very low. Secondly, Foot and I do not think it will be ideal to Mouth Disease is a problem commit resources there. I thank in that area. Furthermore, you, Mr Chairman. Government has committed resources in trying to upgrade KGOSI SEELETSO (TONOTA the tourism industry because REGION): Mr Chairman, I tourism is the second engine of stand to support this motion. growth in the country. For us to Mr Chairman, I am looking at duplicate resources and spend the the fact that even though the little that we have to take those cattle in the Chobe Enclave are resources to Chobe will not be in of low quality, they can still be the best interest of the area and upgraded. We want to sell our the nation at large. I believe that beef outside the country. Just it is just like in the North East, yesterday we were talking about where there is not much land, Angola and Namibia as the most of the North East people countries that will show interest usually move away from North in buying our beef. I believe East to go and find alternative they would like to buy upgraded places for rearing their cattle. livestock. The fact that the Chobe

23 Monday 18th June, 2012 Estasblishment of the Artificial Insemination Camp in the Pandamatenga area area has hardly any livestock the whole country and put aside does not work for us. People any disease outbreaks because need to be supported so that they after all, we want all cattle to be develop what they have. In this at an upgraded standard in the case, I believe that establishing whole country. Thank you Mr an Artificial Insemination camp Chairman. in their area would come handy in order for them to upgrade their KGOSI RAMOKWENA livestock. It does not necessarily (MAUN REGION): Thank mean that given the Trusts they you Mr Chairman. I support have they do not want to venture the motion presented by Kgosi into farming as well. They have Sinvula. Not all of the residents been given the power to come of the Chobe Enclave are into up with trusts but Batswana tourism, only those who have the have always practised livestock know-how of the industry venture farming. I personally feel that, into it. This is not something that funds permitting, an Artificial can be compared to livestock Insemination camp should be farming. With livestock farming established in the Pandamatenga one can decide to go to school to area which will benefit the whole study it or some could be taught area. Alternatively semen could from home. Mr Chairman, any be transported to that area so that person can venture into livestock other than having to transport it to farming including women; this the North and Central areas or any goes on to show how easy it is other place, they could be given to rear cattle and that a person that amount of semen in order for can actually survive through them to upgrade their livestock. livestock farming. I would also The Chobe Enclave residents like to request the Minister of wish to have the same quality of Agriculture, Honourable De livestock as the rest of the nation Graaff that concerning this and we are aware that the area is request, they should conduct a a predominantly Foot and Mouth survey because we have different affected area just like Zone 7 and landscapes and maybe identify a Zone 6. We have an Artificial suitable land for farming. They Insemination camp in Sefhophe could also conduct another survey and no one has ever disapproved in order to find the best breed that it being there due to the Foot and can survive the conditions in the Mouth outbreaks. We could only Chobe Enclave because we have focus on upgrading the cattle in different kinds of animal breeds

24 Monday 18th June, 2012 Estasblishment of the Artificial Insemination Camp in the Pandamatenga area such as Simmental and Brahman, rate; other areas the production just to mention a few. They can rate is high while in others it is survive in different areas or low. The contributing factors conditions. There is land that can can either be the soil, plants or accommodate all breeds; this is grass in that area. I support this something that can be confirmed motion because it could assist by the survey. Other breeds of Chobe farmers to get bulls at a livestock attract ticks very easily cheaper price. Kgosi Lempadi as they have plenty of fur; breeds has mentioned P10 000 as an like Simmental and Charalais. average price money for one bull, Genetically, cattle differ, others a small one for that matter. In our can adapt very easily in a different area, we sell bulls for P20 000 area while others take long to even though currently we are not adapt. These are some of the selling due to the FMD outbreak. things that the Minister should It therefore becomes hard for consider when establishing an those who are new in the farming Artificial Insemination camp industry to buy bulls; they are so so that the area can cater for all expensive to the extent that even kinds of breeds. It is not like if they could try to get them from the Chobe Enclave livestock the Government at a subsidised has cattle of low quality; cattle prize, they will still be expensive. in that area tend to have small This Artificial Insemination frames hence the breed quality camp could therefore assist them that is found there. If an animal very much. When all the surveys is of a small frame, one has to have been conducted, then the first get it to the middle frame recommendations could show the then the large frame through the land suitable for cattle farming upgrading process. and determine the breed that is suitable for that particular land. This could help the Chobe Thank you Mr Chairman. Enclave area residents because some of the cattle have low KGOSI MALEMA (BOBIRWA resistance while others have REGION): Thank you Mr strong resistance to diseases. Chairman. The motion presented Some animals could take six before this House is a good one months while others take only as it is imperative for everyone three months before succumbing to upgrade their livestock. I once to the same disease. Areas differ in visited Chobe, it is a great area terms of production and mortality but it has a lot of wildlife. People

25 Monday 18th June, 2012 Estasblishment of the Artificial Insemination Camp in the Pandamatenga area could have used that land for and others fall, do they not form farming but that is not the case part of the Chobe District? because that area has wildlife. I therefore request the Honourable KGOSI POTSOENG: Thank Minister to explain to this you Mr Chairman. The mover of House if the area is for livestock the motion is aware that Chobe farming or for wildlife. If it is district includes Pandamatenga a wildlife area, I do not think but he specifically requested that livestock and wild animals that an Artificial Insemination should be in the same place. I camp should be established in therefore request the Minister to Pandamatenga where all the explain this aspect, whether the cattle in the Chobe Enclave area is for livestock farming or will be artificially inseminated. for game animals. Thank you Mr Pandamatenga, Kasane and Chairman. Chobe have three different breeds of cattle. The cattle in Kavimba KGOSI POTSOENG (NGAMI and Kachikau also differ from REGION): Thank you Mr those in the mentioned places. I Chairman, this motion is relevant have been there on official visits, and the mover has presented it it was a touching scenario where well but we are addressing two one could not even consume the or three things. We are talking milk from the cattle in that area. about Chobe and Pandamatenga The cattle in the Pandamatenga at the same time yet the mover area are different from those at of the motion has requested Chobe and this is why the mover that an Artificial Insemination of the motion has stated that the camp should be established in camp should be established in Pandamatenga. Pandamatenga Pandamatenga, a place where we and Chobe are two different can all go and see our cattle. He communities. The mover of the has specified Pandamatenga for motion knows. a reason. The people of Chobe should be assisted but before KGOSI MACHILIDZA: Clarification Mr Chairman. that, they should be educated on We know that there is Chobe how to care for the animals after District comprising of Kasane, they are artificially inseminated. Pandamatenga and other areas. If they are inseminated and Therefore when he says that then taken back to their base, Chobe is a different area, I do not the quality of livestock will still understand where Pandamatenga remain the same as the places are 26 Monday 18th June, 2012 Estasblishment of the Artificial Insemination Camp in the Pandamatenga area infested with ticks. If the request as well because it had predators is sought for Pandamatenga then and poisonous herbs such as there is no problem. Thank you mogau. I would agree with Mr Chairman. Members if they were requesting MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you the Minister to establish a mini Kgosi Potsoeng. There seems to cattle farm maybe between be a problem in differentiating Serowe region and Chobe. between the Pandamatenga The area has nutritious trees and Chobe areas but since the suitable for livestock farming. Minister of Local Government Pandamatenga is already used is around maybe he could clarify for arable farming and tourism. that aspect. I do not know if it will be KGOSI MMUALEFHE possible because we are in the (CHOBE REGION): Thank red zone, Mr Chairman. I have you Mr Chairman. This concerns even submitted a motion which me because we are talking about requests that we be considered Chobe. Geographically speaking, for mini ranches for cattle not the whole area is regarded Chobe exceeding three hundred (300). Region but it has different In that way it would be possible geographical aspects. Other parts to control and contain the herd have loam soils while others have and even upgrade them within sandy soils. The area is suitable that ranch. I do not support this for farming and not livestock motion because a cow could be rearing. We have livestock kept in inseminated and then released to Pandamatenga only on temporary mix with the wildlife and still die basis. It will be relocated even from the ticks found in that area. though we do not know where it Even our grandparents could will be taken to because we have not contain the situation and we the upcoming Agro agriculture ended up relocating to Kachikau. partnership with the Israelites. The second reason is that we Thank you Mr Chairman. used to herd our livestock in MR CHAIRMAN: Thank Kwikamba, Matomantsi just near you Kgosi Mmualefhe. At this Pandamatenga but the area is infested with ticks. The livestock juncture let me hand over to the was then moved to a different area Honourable Minister to respond within Pandamatenga, however, to the Honourable Member’s they were moved from that area comments on this motion.

27 Monday 18th June, 2012 Estasblishment of the Artificial Insemination Camp in the Pandamatenga area MINISTER OF cattle population of 15 000 -16 AGRICULTURE HON. 000 cattle but it is important to (DE GRAAFF): Thank you improve the genetics. I support Mr Chairman. My Ministry the suggestion of the Honourable operates a network of 15 static Members, that maybe we should Artificial Examination Centres subsidise bulls to help the countrywide which serve different farmers in the Chobe District. Districts, and Chobe is one of the These 15 000 or 16 000 cattle few districts that have not been mix with wild animals which covered. This programme has spread Foot and Mouth diseases proved to be very expensive to (FMD). Some of the Honourable run. Furthermore, if you come Members even mentioned that up with fences there you should we can look at market like think of the elephant population. Angola and other markets in In view of these limitations, my the neighbouring countries. The Ministry is no longer establishing fact of the matter is you cannot new centres but is instead start with cattle from a red zone promoting the On-farm Artificial to another red zone. One could Insemination (AI). I think some hasten to point out that we are of the Honourable Members have now trading with Zimbabwe mentioned that mobile clinic from the red zone. The difference programmes encourage farmers is we are a member of the World with fenced ranches to do AI in Organisation on Animal Health. their own ranches. After one gets a clinical case in The Government’s support a district, like for instance, zone under this programme includes 2d in Ngamiland, they have to free insemination training, forty wait for six months before they people being trained annually, can apply to the OIE to trade provision of subsidised AI with the beef or even to negotiate equipment and requisites, with trading partners. Two practical training on the job and rounds of vaccination also have technical advice. It is hoped that to be done before those cattle are the success of the On-farm AI allowed to trade from two red will go a long way in increased zones. In the case of Ngamiland, AI coverage thus improving the only those cattle that have been genetic quality of the national vaccinated twice and have no herd. I agree with the Honourable clinical case of a period of six Members that when we talk months can be allowed to be of the Chobe area you talk of traded with the particular trading 28 Monday 18th June, 2012 Estasblishment of the Artificial Insemination Camp in the Pandamatenga area partners. Focusing on Chobe areas where ploughing fields District, it has to be considered have been allocated for arable that we have a cattle population farming, farmers have now gone of 16 000 mixing with buffaloes as far as drilling boreholes and which are the main carriers of have now introduced livestock FMD. There are also challenges and that is illegal. We have also brought about by elephants. As started warning them that it has to I had explained, because of the stop. We will even repossess land costs involved, we have decided in which people have illegally not to continue with AI camps. drilled boreholes. This is because We do on-farm AI and training the farmers are now complaining instead. There are also ways of livestock damaging the crops we can explore; for example, and that becomes an issue for subsidising Bull Scheme. Even if Dikgosi. Cases like that are we do not trade beef with other brought before you for mediation countries and we have about and we cannot just overlook them. 16 000 heads of cattle, there is That is why even in the Ministry, nothing holding us back from we come up with these fences to improving the genetics. Chobe separate livestock from arable farmers are much organised and farming. I agree with some of the this can be attributed to the fact Honourable Members here who that since the cattle are always said that we must treat districts with wildlife they are obligated differently. Even in my Ministry to round their cattle up every Honourable Chairman, we are night to put them in kraals. now restructuring around agro- Therefore, it is something that we ecological zones; this means we can look into maybe on the farm will take our livestock expertise or even at the cattle post. My to those high production livestock advice for now would be to look areas and our arable farming at the Bull Subsidy Scheme and expertise to the high production determine how we can help the arable farming areas. By saying farmers, because I acknowledge all this, I am supporting the the importance of improving motion, we will not overlook the genetics. We introduced the the area because it has only 16 Integrated Support Programme 000 cattle. We have to improve for Arable Agricultural the genetics by perhaps coming Development (ISPAAD) because up with a Bull Subsidy Scheme we wanted to separate livestock for those farmers. I thank you Mr from arable farming. Even in Chairman.

29 Monday 18th June, 2012 Estasblishment of the Artificial Insemination Camp in the Pandamatenga area MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you and we are aware of the places Honourable Minister. I believe where there are carnivores and that Honourable Members and poisonous herbs such as mogau. Kgosi Sinvula have heard the We know where to herd our response. Let me give Kgosi livestock despite. When I stated Sinvula the floor. the Pandamatenga area I did not mean that the camp will be KGOSI SINVULA established exactly there, the area (SPECIALLY ELECTED): is constituted by many villages. Thank you Mr Chairman. We have long been farming in the Honourable Members, I would Pandamatenga area and there has like to thank you for supporting never been a complaint that our my motion and for you to have cattle are of low quality and their seen the need to upgrade our production rate is slow. Within livestock. We should not sit the Ministry of Agriculture, there back when we see that there is a gap, we should act as it is our are veterinary specialists who duty as representatives of our can recommend an area suitable communities. God alone knows for the establishment of that AI why some areas have wildlife camp but it is the same across... while others do not, therefore he intended for us to have cattle MR CHAIRMAN: Can you and this is why the Ministry of conclude Kgosi Sinvula. Agriculture supports farming. In KGOSI SINVULA: Sir? this case, wildlife should not deter us from receiving services. As it MR CHAIRMAN: I have given is, every Motswana is entitled to you the floor to conclude and services offered in the country. thank the Minister, now you The Government has to see to it want to continue with the debate, that these services are provided in the Chobe Enclave. We do not can you please conclude. have to let anything discourage KGOSI SINVULA: Yes Mr our farming. Chobe has enough Chairman, I am concluding; it is water but it has wildlife as well. only that I was still responding We have come a long way dealing to some of the comments by with carnivores but we have never Members which I did not like. given up. Therefore we cannot say that our livestock should not HONOURABLE MEMBERS: be upgraded. We know our area Laughter!

30 Monday 18th June, 2012 Foot and Mouth Eradication Policy

KGOSI SINVULA: I have to be many as are of that opinion say, serious because if I am not, then ‘Aye’, on the contrary say ‘No’. things will get out of control. Honourable Members, the Question put and agreed to. Minister understood the motion. MR CHAIRMAN: I hope I will be very grateful if he treats the agreement is taking into his suggestion to come up with consideration the advice that the syndicates where funds are the Honourable Minister has permitting urgently. All along we given this House on their plan have been buying bulls from other in general as opposed to what areas. Thank you Honourable we are thinking in the current Minister for the response and let situation. We shall adjourn for me also thank all the Members lunch and resume at 2:30 p.m for supporting the motion and the contribution made by Kgosi PROCEEDINGS Masunga has been noted as well. SUSPENDED FOR LUNCH Thank you Mr Chairman. MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you GABORONE): Good afternoon Kgosi Sinvula. You are allowed Honourable Members and to start with what you anticipate Honourable Minister, welcome to be your last and concluding back. We move on with today’s statement so that you will be brief business. in your conclusion. That is the advice I always give Honourable FOOT AND MOUTH Members. We have to state all ERADICATION POLICY our facts when presenting our Motion motions, laying all the important points before the House rather KGOSI MALEMA than leaving the points that could (BOBIRWA REGION): Thank have been presented first and then you Mr Chairman. I request this present them after the motion has Honourable House to support been debated and responded to. me in this motion which reads Let us present our motions in thus, ‘That this honourable such a way that when the House House requests Government debates them, all the facts have to amend the Foot and Mouth been presented and are clear and control procedures particularly understood. We then conclude in relation to cattle which cross Kgosi Sinvula’s motion and as into Zimbabwe.’ The situation

31 Monday 18th June, 2012 Foot and Mouth Eradication Policy in my area has prompted me to We have been impoverished by bring this motion to the House. this exercise. The Government As a control measure to eradicate is doing great things for us but and control foot and mouth when it comes to cattle, it is a disease, all the infected animals different case. In our cattle posts, are slaughtered every time there we have Matimela cattle which is an outbreak and my concern is we cannot vaccinate because it that among these cattle that are is not easy to control them but slaughtered, some of them could they never contract this FMD have been vaccinated. Last year, and they are not killed. I really a vaccine for preventing FMD feel that the Government is being was introduced but still cattle oppressive in a way. We are so are being killed whenever there poor in our region yet we have is an outbreak. One Honourable a lot of our cattle been killed. Member told me that it has been We are completely dependent on decided that cattle will no longer Government now. That would be be slaughtered following any all. Thank you Mr Chairman. outbreak, but it is a different case MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you in my area. This is a great concern Kgosi Mmirwa Malema. I believe because some of the animals are that Honourable Members have being killed even when they have been listening to Kgosi Malema not crossed over to Zimbabwe. as he presented his motion. I will This does not sit well with us. give the House the floor to debate Killing our cattle dates as far the motion. back as 2005 and it is sad on us, farmers. It is like the Government KGOSI LEMPADI is deliberately driving Batswana (OKAVANGO REGION): to poverty through this practice. Thank you Mr Chairman. I This is so painful considering the support this motion. Kgosi fact that it takes a great effort to Malema has talked about cattle rear livestock. I therefore request in his own region. In our region the Government to consider elephants destroy the cordon fence sparing cattle that have not had and cattle cross over to Namibia. contact with the cattle from Our Namibian counterparts then Zimbabwe. We had requested for examine them and certify that the establishment of quarantines they are free from the disease to keep these cattle for some time and release them to us; our in order to observe and vaccinate Government then decides to kill them but the request was denied. them. I wonder why the cattle are

32 Monday 18th June, 2012 Foot and Mouth Eradication Policy still being slaughtered because KGOSI MACHILIDZA we have been told that there is (BOTETI REGION): Thank a strong vaccine. Why are these you Mr Chairman. I would like cattle not quarantined, examined, to add onto what other Members vaccinated and returned to the are saying on Kgosi Malema’s owners? Six of my cattle were motion. Mr Chairman, we must slaughtered just recently and this face the fact that Botswana is a is the reason why I support the country that depends mostly on motion. What hurts the most is cattle, and as we know most of us that we get P400 as compensation are cattle owners. This country is for every cow that has been in the international scene since slaughtered by the Ministry of we send our meat to the European Agriculture; why do we have to Union (EU) market. This has been affected by the Foot and get P400 as compensation for a Mouth Disease outbreaks. At fully grown ox/bull. What is the least if the mover was saying criteria used to determine this that the Government should zone compensation? We should look all our communal areas in order at the fact that it is expensive to to control the movement of our get just one cow, why do we still cattle, it would be far much better. have the same old compensation However, when you say that if price Honourable Minister? Why our cattle happen to cross to other do we still slaughter cattle while countries then such animals must we have veterinary officers who be protected, it is a problem, can vaccinate and return them to because we have the Law that the owners? The other alternative prescribes what should be done under those circumstances. would be to return the cattle to Some countries do not vaccinate our Namibian counterparts who for Foot and Mouth disease an are willing to buy them. When example is our neighbouring compensation is issued out, country which I will not mention there should be consideration on by name. Botswana is trying its whether it is the farmer’s fault to level best to vaccinate its animals. let their cattle cross over or lack If we do not exercise caution we of accountability by the patrolling will have a problem. We will not officers. Animals should be be trusted by the International examined for the disease before market and that would be a they are slaughtered. Thank you challenge. I would rather ask the Mr Chairman. Minister to consider raising the 33 Monday 18th June, 2012 Foot and Mouth Eradication Policy amount of compensation for the great help. We cannot run away animals which cross over to other from the international Law which countries because as you know prescribes that if a cow crosses we depend on these animals for to another country then measures our livelihood. The Bobirwa area must be taken. Botswana is a is close to the border and I think transparent country, even in our that the Government must now areas, when we have Foot and come up with some controls or Mouth we have to report to the erect strong fences that cannot international community. We do be easily damaged by animals. this so that they know that we We are aware that there are some are transparent and we want to people who vandalise these have cordial business relations fences for various reasons or with them. Mr Chairman, I am even to steal it for their farming not saying that I do not support areas. This issue is a concern the motion. I support it however because when Bobirwa is having I wanted to put forward some problems, we are also going to measures that we have to take. I face the problem Mr Chairman. thank you, Mr Chairman. Our traditional system of herding cattle was such that we look after KGOSI BOIDITSWE them during the day and in the (SEROWE REGION): Thank evening they would sleep in the you Mr Chairman. I also would kraal. Nowadays our animals are like to support this motion. just left to go astray. Controlling Enough has been done already, them is a challenge. cattle have been slaughtered and it is enough. If this continues, I think if you can come up with Botswana will remain poor. I zone fences around such areas, it personally have never heard of would be better because I have cattle dying naturally from the never heard of farms having FMD. They are just infected and been damaged by cattle. People they only need treatment. There who rear cattle in the communal was quarantine in Matopi where areas are mostly affected. The cattle were kept for observation Ministry should come up with and they were monitored. some measures like having This is why I request that the some ploughing fields nearer the slaughtering should stop because cordon fence so that the cattle it is painful to see cattle being would be on the other side of the shot in masses and pushed into fields, maybe that could be of one pit by a grader. I therefore 34 Monday 18th June, 2012 Foot and Mouth Eradication Policy request the Government to halt than gunning down cattle. The the slaughtering of these cattle Government has to assist in this and instead treatment should be whole situation and even talk introduced. The mover of the to countries where we market motion has rightly said that when our beef and convince them of Batswana no longer have cattle, our situation. Thank you Mr it will then mean that the whole Chairman. nation queues for Government’s assistance, something which will MINISTER OF not be sustainable. I support this A G R I C U L T U R E motion Mr Chairman. As I said (HONOURABLE DE before, cattle which have FMD GRAAFF): Thank you Mr were quarantined at Matopi and Chairman. Most of the disease given a different vaccine. The control zones bordering with situation does not call for killing Zimbabwe are FMD free without the cattle; that is not a solution. It vaccination, while the areas will only impoverish us. I have on the side of Zimbabwe are never heard of any dangers that FMD infected. Therefore cloven may be caused by consuming hoofed animals that have crossed the meat from the FMD infected into Zimbabwe are not allowed cattle. Condemned meat placed back into the country but rather in the deep freezer for a certain destroyed with compensation. period of time can be consumed; This measure has been put in the same should happen with place in order to avert the risk the beef from the infected cattle, of transmitting FMD from it should be given to farmers Zimbabwe. Now I want to to feed their dogs and even make something very clear here pigs. Mr Chairman, what is Honourable Members, vaccine disheartening is that, even if only cannot cure FMD however, it two cattle have been diagnosed can only suppress the virus. with the FMD, the whole herd Compensation, which we believe will be slaughtered. Why are is very low, is P400 for livestock they not tested first before being and then P50 for goats. Let us killed? Mr Chairman, we have also look at the bigger picture the HIV pandemic. Only those and agree that we must have who are HIV positive are given collective responsibilities as a the antiretroviral drugs, not the Government and as farmers, in whole nation. Let an alternative order to control FMD. The last measure be put in place rather outbreak of FMD in the North

35 Monday 18th June, 2012 Foot and Mouth Eradication Policy

East cost the Government more we should also start marketing than P200 million. Collective our beef in other countries. If you responsibilities are where look at Namibia, the Honourable farmer’s responsibility comes Member said that cattle which in, to take care of his cattle, and cross into Namibia should not not allow his cattle to cross into be killed, it is a different story Zimbabwe. As I have explained, because it is from the red zone. they cross into an infected area Namibia is only exporting to which will damage all our plans the EU from fenced farms, to control FMD on the Botswana while we are exporting from even communal areas. That is side. why I say, Bobirwa-Zone 7, has We should remember one thing, a population of about 150 000 the future of the beef industry cattle. Let us look at the bigger relies on the control of cattle picture and destroy one animal diseases, it relies on the control that has crossed into Zimbabwe of FMD or else we would not instead of running the risk for be able to market our beef. We that one animal to come and are a member state of the World infect all the other cattle in Organisation for Animal Health Bobirwa. We are controlling (OIE). We can come up with FMD by vaccination. In the past different options to control FMD we used a certain vaccine to or other cattle diseases. What suppress, not to cure FMD. That is very important Honourable vaccine allowed impurities to Chairperson is that, there are enter the animals’ blood stream; only three countries in Africa that therefore it was difficult to tell have entered the European Union which cattle were infected and Market; those are Namibia, which were not. Now with the Botswana and Swaziland. You new purified vaccine, after two will note that not even South rounds of vaccination, we will Africa sells to the EU market, be able to tell which animals are they have entered into other infected and which animals are luxury world markets but not not, and there will be no reason in the EU. Even other countries to stamp out all the cattle. in Asia do not sell to the EU. It becomes more stringent every With the plans that our expertise day to penetrate the market. We in the Department of Veterinary therefore have to make sure that are putting in place to control we follow the EU regulations and FMD, we cannot afford to take 36 Monday 18th June, 2012 Foot and Mouth Eradication Policy that risk. When there are cattle up to 12 per cent of our animals that have crossed into an infected are stray animals, what does area, the first thing you do if there that tell us? Our farmers are not are suspicions of an outbreak of taking care of their cattle. All FMD is to inform the OIE. You we are asking is for you to take also have to inform the OIE what care of your cattle and make control measures you are putting sure that they do not cross to in place to address it. Now other countries. Thank you Mr imagine if we allowed cattle that Chairman. have crossed into an infected area to come back. All the plans that MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you we are putting in place and all the Honourable Minister. money that we are spending in KGOSI MALEMA: Thank vaccinating the cattle will be in you Mr Chairman. I have heard vain. We are currently using the the Minister’s response. But the purified vaccine in Bobirwa. So, truth of the matter is that the after two rounds we will be able way our cattle are slaughtered to tell which animals are infected is disheartening and the and which ones are not. If cattle Government should come up are allowed to come back and with another strategy to control you do not destroy them, we will the disease. Perhaps quarantines have to declare that whole area should be established so that the an infected area to the O.I.E. cattle could be kept, examined After two rounds of vaccination, and vaccinated there if they have the period can be reduced upon FMD and not to be slaughtered every time there is an outbreak. negotiating with the trading This procedure breeds livestock partners to market our beef in theft in a way, especially the other countries. Remember that I Zimbabwean nationals because explained earlier on that you can they know that the cattle in only negotiate with your trading question will not be claimed by partners after an area had no their owners. In some cases when clinical case for six months and one farmer despises the other, they then two rounds of vaccination. could just drive their livestock Mr Chairman, when I say towards Zimbabwe so that they collective responsibility, it covers cross the fence. As farmers, we the farmer and the Government. make sure that our cattle do not cross the fences and I therefore I am sure Dikgosi know better appeal to the Government to than me about Matimela cattle. address this situation. Thank you In some parts of this country, Mr Chairman. 37 Monday 18th June, 2012 Foot and Mouth Eradication Policy

MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you Kgosi Mmirwa Malema. Honourable Members, you have debated the motion and have also received the response by the Honourable Minister. Let us now conclude the FMD eradication policy by voting as it is the procedure of this House. As many as are of that opinion say, “Aye,” on the contrary say, “No”.

I did not get your response well Honourable Members, does your silence mean that you agree to the motion or not? I will therefore request the Secretary to carry out division as a procedure so that every Member can vote on their behalf.

SECTRETARY: I will call out your names in alphabetical arrangement and I take it that Honourable Members understand that they are to respond; Aye, or No, when their names are called. I shall now start.

HONOURABLE YES NO ABSTAIN MEMBER ABSENT

Kgosi Boiditswe √ Kgosi Esterhuizen Kgosi Gaborone Kgosi Gaoonwe √ Kgosi Garebakwena √ Kgosi Kahiko III √ Kgosi Kgamane √ Kgosi Kgari III √ Kgosi Lempadi √ Kgosi Lotlamoreng II Kgosi Machilidza √ Kgosi Malema √ Kgosi Malope II √ Kgosi Masunga √ Kgosi Mmualefhe √ Kgosi Moeti II √

38 Monday 18th June, 2012 Foot and Mouth Eradication Policy

Kgosi Monnaathebe √ Kgosi Montshiwa √ Kgosi Moremi √ Kgosi Moroka √ Kgosi Moseki √ Kgosi Ndzonga √ Kgosi Ramokone √ Kgosi Ramokwena √ Kgosi Potsoeng √ Kgosi Mosadi √ Kgosi Seeletso √ Kgosi Seemeko √ Kgosi Sekwenyane √ Kgosi Sinvula √ Kgosi Telekelo √ Kgosi Tshipe √ Kgosi Toto II √ Kgosi Xao √ Total 14 14 3 3 Members’ Total 34

MR CHAIRMAN: We did some calculations here, but the purpose for division is to clarify where the motion is going, whether it is negated or agreed to, it should be very clear through division because in group voting the responses do not come clear. The numbers have been tallied and these are the results, we have 14 members for Aye, 14, for No, 3, abstained and 3 Members were absent. We have a tie on this vote. I will use my power to carry out a second vote and if we still have a tie, I will then explain what it means for us. Let me request that we vote for the second time and this time around we should consider both the facts presented by the mover of the motion, the response and the comment made by the mover of the motion after the response was given. The mover of the motion feels that the Government should consider this

39 Monday 18th June, 2012 Foot and Mouth Eradication Policy special arrangement which will protect their cattle. The Honourable Minister on the other hand is saying; let us look at the bigger picture and our collective responsibility to see to it that we do not destroy what we want to do as a country in terms of marketing our beef outside the country. As we vote, let us consider and weigh these two aspects and consider that if we agree to the motion, is it really where we want to go. Let us vote once more Honourable Members.

SECRETARY: We will re-run the division Honourable Members and I will call out the names alphabetically.

HONOURABLE YES NO ABSTAIN ABSENT MEMBER Kgosi Boiditswe √ Kgosi Esterhuizen Kgosi Gaborone Kgosi Gaoonwe √ Kgosi Garebakwena √ Kgosi Kahiko III √ Kgosi Kgamane √ Kgosi Kgari III √ Kgosi Lempadi √ Kgosi Lotlamoreng II Kgosi Machilidza √ Kgosi Malema √ Kgosi Malope II √ Kgosi Masunga √ Kgosi Mmualefhe √ Kgosi Moeti II √ Kgosi Monnaathebe √ Kgosi Montshiwa √ Kgosi Moremi √ Kgosi Moroka √ Kgosi Moseki √

40 Monday 18th June, 2012 Branding of Donkeys

Kgosi Ndzonga √ Kgosi Ramokone √ Kgosi Ramokwena √ Kgosi Potsoeng √ Kgosi Seboko √ Kgosi Seeletso √ Kgosi Seemeko √ Kgosi Sekwenyane √ Kgosi Sinvula √ Kgosi Telekelo √ Kgosi Tshipe √ Kgosi Toto II √ Kgosi Xao √ Total 10 16 5 2 Members’ Total 34

MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable Members, according to the figures that we have here the “Ayes” 10, “No” 16, abstain 5, absent 2. And as it is the case that, every decision of the House shall be determined by a question being put through Ntlo ya Dikgosi by the Chairperson in the manner provided in these Rules of Procedure and then decided by a majority of the votes of the Members present in voting. Therefore because we have 16 Members saying” no”, and 10 Members for “aye”, it means that the “Nos’” have it

Question put and negated.

BRANDING OF DONKEYS

Motion

KGOSI BOIDITSWE (SEROWE REGION): Thank you Mr Chairman. Honourable Members, I bring forth this motion as a result of the already existing challenges such as car accidents and destruction of crops by these animals. It is not possible to trace these donkeys to anyone since they are not branded. We have the livestock patrol

41 Monday 18th June, 2012 Branding of Donkeys officers who still have to trace them. Someone also suggested the donkeys to the owners. In that I should talk about goats but most of the cases, they deal with I have made it clear that I want the same animals in their patrols to address only donkeys because and since they are not branded, my concern is that farmers seem it is not easy to trace them to to ignore their responsibilities their owners. Sometimes farmers towards their donkeys yet their refute ownership of these donkeys animals cause accidents. I appeal especially when they have been to you Honourable Members captured by the patrol officers to consider this matter. If there since there will be no evidence could be an act to compel donkey to prove ownership. The donkey owners to brand their donkeys, it has never been a valuable animal could be better. That is all I want in the past except that it was used to put before this house. Thank to pull carts. Owners felt that you Mr Chairman. there was no need to brand them. KGOSI SEEMEKO We have had many fatalities in (SPECIALLY ELECTED): road accidents involving these Thank you Mr Chairman. I donkeys. It was mentioned that thank the Honourable Member most of the people who own for the motion. Mr Chairman, donkeys are the underprivileged I understand this motion and therefore, it will not serve any the mover of the motion has purpose if their donkeys caused presented it well but I am an accident and compensation is wondering whether the mover sought from them. In this case we of the motion is saying that we only want to know the owner and should force donkey owners to not claim anything from them. brand their donkeys. I believe the The information could also assist if there are issues of insurance Mr Agriculture Policies and Brand Chairman. Some people say that Act do not prohibit one to brand it is not easy to brand a donkey as their donkeys. What needs to be it has a lot of fur on the thigh but done is to remind farmers that they I have advised them to use the should take care of their animals neck instead. and that they should be branded for identification. I therefore do Mr Chairman, my concern is that not see the reason why the mover we cannot trace the donkeys when of the motion should request the they are involved in an accident Government to establish an Act and even the Matimela people to force farmers to brand their have a problem when registering donkeys. 42 Monday 18th June, 2012 Branding of Donkeys

Mr Chairman, the purpose of MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, branding animals is to be able to Kgosi Seemeko. Let me remind claim ownership of that animal. Honourable Members that we If the animal is not branded, have thirty minutes left. When I do not know how the owner we debate we should look at the can claim it and this has been time. I want us to be productive. said repeatedly. The Ministry KGOSI MONNAATHEBE of Agriculture always address (THAMAGA REGION): the points the mover of the Thank you, Mr Chairman; I do motion has put forth, it therefore not support Kgosi Boiditswe’s becomes very difficult for me to motion more so, that he said support this motion because there that he needs advice. If there is is nothing that prohibits owners a donkey that is not branded, to brand their donkeys. I do not no one can claim it as his. The know if there is an instrument law is straight forward that which prohibits owners to brand anyone found in possession of an their donkeys in the region Kgosi unbranded animal is regarded as is from. What I know is that the having stolen it. Donkeys cannot owners continue to brand their be traced back to their owners donkeys. I do not know what informed Kgosi to bring this if they are not branded. The motion because owners know that Matimela Act stipulates that all it is their responsibility to brand stray animals must be captured their donkeys. Mr Chairman, as it is the case currently. the mover of the motion is my Honourable Member should friend and I am not victimizing contact the Matimela personnel him in any way but at times we so that they capture all the have to face facts so that we save unbranded donkeys. Thank you costs for the Government. Mr Mr Chairman. Chairman, we cannot deny that accidents are happening in the KGOSI KAHIKO III country but donkeys are not the (GHANZI WEST REGION): only causes of these accidents. Thank you Mr Chairman. Let We have; cattle, goats, chickens me also thank the mover of the and cats. Honourable Minister will agree with me that there is motion. Kgosi Boiditswe has nothing that prohibits owners presented facts and according to brand their donkeys. I thank to the law, there is no provision you Mr Chairman for giving me which forces one to brand their the opportunity to debate this donkeys. When we look at Cap: afternoon. 36.02 of the Branding of cattle

43 Monday 18th June, 2012 Branding of Donkeys

Act, there is no provision for MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, branding donkeys, horses and Kgosi Lempadi. There are no mules. Only cattle, oxen and more hands. heifers are covered in the Act. MINISTER OF The mover of the motion requests AGRICULTURE (HON DE that donkeys should be covered GRAAFF): Thank you, Mr in the Branding Act; that is a Chairman, the current Act brilliant idea. Indeed there is no regulating branding is called the provision for donkeys in this Act, Branding of Cattle Act Chapter we brand our donkeys to protect 36:02. It refers to the branding them but there is no provision of cattle. However it does not of the law made. Thank you Mr prohibit donkey owners to brand Chairman. their donkeys and indeed most KGOSI LEMPADI donkey owners are doing it. (OKAVANGO REGION): I In the future, when the Act is support this motion Mr Chairman. reviewed, a consideration will be Honourable Members, let me made to include a provision for draw this to your attention; a the branding of other livestock donkey has been listed in the including donkeys. I am very Stock theft Act, and one faces a much aware, Mr Chairman that five year imprisonment term for even Dikgosi respect the ear stealing either a cow or a donkey. marking. When there are court It therefore has to be covered in cases at the Kgotla, they identify the Branding of cattle Act because farmers with the ear marks it carries a prison sentence when for purposes of claiming their stolen, just like any other animal. animals, even those that are not The word “brand” proves branded. In this country, when ownership to a particular thing, one moves chickens from one there has to be an Act which zone to another zone, they need forces farmers to brand their a removal permit. This is done to animals for ownership purposes. control diseases. Now that is the As Members debated the motion, same with donkeys. If one wants to sell a donkey, or even to move some have stated that the owner it, they need a removal permit. carries the responsibility to brand Surely if you need that, you their donkeys but the mover of have got to identify the donkey, the motion requests that donkeys so you need proof of ownership. should be listed in the branding That is why I am saying, most Act. Thank you Mr Chairman. of the donkeys are branded but 44 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Chairman’s Remarks indeed when we review the Act, ADJOURNMENT a consideration will be put in place to include donkeys in the The House adjourned at 3.38 th branding of livestock. Thank p.m. until Tuesday 19 June 2012 you, Mr Chairman. at 9.30 a.m. KGOSI BOIDITSWE Tuesday 19th June, 2012 (SEROWE REGION): Thank you Mr Chairman. Honourable THE HOUSE met at 9.30 a.m. Minister, when the time has (THE CHAIRMAN in the come to review the Act, please Chair) do include the donkey as one of the animals to be branded. We P R A Y E R S are looking at the fact that the donkey is now marketable as * * * * some people are now establishing CHAIRMAN’S REMARKS butcheries to sell donkey meat and it could be dangerous for MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI the butchery owner to buy the PUSO GABORONE): Good donkey which has been stolen as it would not bear any brand. morning Honourable Members. Thank you Mr Chairman. I believe that you had a restful night and you are ready to deal MR CHAIRMAN: Thank with today’s business. I would you, Kgosi Boiditswe. We shall also like to extend greetings conclude Kgosi Boiditswe’s to the Honourable Ministers motion. present, as well as the Permanent Question put and agreed to. Secretaries from the different Government departments. There MR CHAIRMAN: With that is a questionnaire that seeks to Honourable Members, we have find out if the services that are come to the end of today’s business. I would like to thank you offered by the administration Honourable Members for your are satisfactory. They shall contribution and participation. distribute them so that you can I would also like to thank the complete and deposit them in a Honourable Minister, Honourable box that shall be placed by the De Graaff for spending this day with us answering our questions door. Without wasting any more and responding to Members’ time let us begin with today’s motions. questions. 45 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL the Scheme of Service Directive ANSWER No.9 of 2010 has summarised the duties at each level. I thank DISCREPANCY IN you, Mr Chairman. GRADING SOME COURT CLERKS AT CUSTOMARY RELOCATION OF COURTS SOME RESIDENTS OF KAUDWANE SETTLEMENT KGOSI P. SEELETSO IN LETLHAKENG SUB (TONOTA REGION): asked the DISTRICT Minister of Local Government:- KGOSI I. GAOONWE (i) if he is aware that some (LETLHAKENG REGION): Court Clerks at Customary asked the Minister of Local Courts who register Government:- livestock are graded at B3 salary scale whereas the (i) if he is aware that some scheme of service grades residents of Kaudwane them at B1 scale; and settlement in Letlhakeng Sub District are relocating (ii) if the Minister will further explain why there is this to Mothomelo due to the discrepancy particularly re-opening of the borehole that he previously stated and only go to Kaudwane that they were paid in for their monthly pensions accordance with the scheme and rations; of service Directive No. 9 of 2010. (ii) if so, can the Minister clarify whether this relocation ASSISTANT MINISTER OF cannot be attributed to LOCAL GOVERNMENT the influence by Survival (HON. MOTOWANE): I am International, aware that some Court Clerks at Customary Courts who register (iii) whether their relocation cattle are graded at B3 while is not a concern to others are graded at B1. The Government especially that function of issuing sales and they are leaderless; and trekking permits is graded at B1 and B3 up to B5 salary scales (iv) to explain if they are as a joint duty in accordance accorded any special with the Job Descriptions for treatment from other each position. I am aware that Batswana. 46 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer

ASSISTANT MINISTER OF any special treatment from other LOCAL GOVERNMENT Batswana. The residents receive (HON MOTOWANE): Thank basic needs after assessment and you Mr Chairman. I am aware they are consulted on issues like of six residents of Kaudwane any other Motswana. Thank you who moved permanently back Mr Chairman. to Mothomelo, and I am also aware that 16 other residents KGOSI GAOONWE: I want to of Kaudwane move between enquire from the Minister if there Mothomelo and Kaudwane will be any action taken against periodically. The reasons for people who chose to move back the migration of these residents permanently since they were between the two settlements initially paid compensation by are not known. However, I am the Government when they were informed that the frequency first moved to Kaudwane? has increased following the H O N O U R A B L E re-opening of the borehole at MOTOWANE: Thank you Mothomelo. I am not able to Mr Chairman. We have not state whether this movement yet decided whether to take is attributable to the influence any action against them for of Survival International. moving back permanently to The periodic movement of Mothomelo especially taking people between Kaudwane into cognisance, the fact that and Mothomelo is a concern to they had been compensated Government, for the reason that for the initial relocation. If the Government has invested money Members remember well, there in putting into place infrastructure was a controversial case which and Government programmes has since prompted that if there at Kaudwane to enable the is any action that the Government population to access services from wants to take against them, it there as the bulk of these services should tread carefully to avoid are not available at Mothomelo. doing anything that might Therefore, those who moved contravene the judgement of that away from Kaudwane, either particular case. permanently or temporarily, will be denying themselves access KGOSI MACHILIDZA: I to Government assistance. wanted to enquire from the Finally, Mr Chairman, residents Minister to clarify that since he of Mothomelo are not accorded mentioned that the people who

47 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer choose to go back to Mothomelo expectation is that since there will be denying themselves are services in the village of certain rights, does he mean Kaudwane then the people from that even if those people can Mothomelo can access them experience health problems the there. Government will look the other way? Is the Government not KGOSI GAOONWE: Thank going to take any action to assist you Mr Chairman and the to fight hunger and diseases? Honourable Minister. Does it mean that the villages of Mothomelo, going further PROGRESS REGARDING to Kaudwane will no longer be THE AMENDMENT OF THE CUSTOMARY COURT ACT provided with services? Thank you. KGOSI J. MOSEKI (GHANZI EAST): asked the Minister of H O N O U R A B L E Local Government to update the MOTOWANE: Thank you Mr House on the progress regarding Chairman. The expectation is that the amendment of the Customary in terms of the services provided Court Act that seeks to empower by the Government everyone Court Bailiffs on the delivery should be able to enjoy them of summons, administration of wherever they are. Those who corporal punishment, execution prefer to leave all those and decide of Court Orders, attachments and to reside somewhere else make it seizure of defaulters’ property. difficult for the Government to provide them with such services. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF What the Government is trying LOCAL GOVERNMENT to demonstrate is that certain (HON MOTOWANE): Thank services can only be provided in you Mr Chairman. Work on the particular areas. Mr Chairman, amendment of the Customary this problem is not only isolated to courts Act seeking to empower the Mothomelo village but rather Court Bailiffs on delivery of it is a countrywide phenomenon. summons, administration of That is why in some settlements corporal punishment, execution you will find people being told of court orders, attachments and that they can only be offered seizure of defaulters’ property is services at particular areas since at an advanced stage. The Bill is the Government resources and being prepared in liaison with the workers are not enough. The Attorney General and is planned

48 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer for tabling during the November KGOSI MACHILIDZA: I 2012 sitting of Parliament. I wanted to enquire from the thank you Mr Chairman. Minister that since they are amending the Law..... KGOSI KAHIKO III: Thank you Mr Chairman. Since the MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi Minister has stated that the Machilidza, do speak up so that amendment of the Customary we can hear you properly. Courts Act seeking to empower Court Bailiffs is at an advanced KGOSI MACHILIDZA: Pardon stage, which Law are they me Mr Chairman. I wanted to currently operating under? I am enquire from the Minister if there asking this because they continue will be warehouses in all the to deliver summonses and to villages where the Government seize defaulters’ property despite is going to store those goods for the fact that the amendments of safe keeping after they have been the Act have not been finalised. seized? This will ensure that the goods are in a good condition H O N O U R A B L E at the time of sale rather than MOTOWANE: Thank you Mr attaching them while they are Chairman. A similar question still with the owners who can was asked in Parliament recently destroy them in the meantime. and as I explained, we are trying Thank you. to amend the Law so that it can be clear regarding those issues. H O N O U R A B L E The expectation is that there are MOTOWANE: Thank you Mr other existing Laws even though Chairman. We have not identified they might not necessarily be any warehouses and I know that for the Tribal Administration at times when people imply that department that can be used they will cross a bridge when in instances where a case is they get to it, it demonstrates instigated against such officers. lack of contingency planning on their part. We shall look into I do however acknowledge that it and determine where there is there has been questions about need for storage facilities so that whether the Law actually caters the seized goods are not placed for the Court Bailiffs regarding at the offices of Dikgosi. The their duties. That is the reason expectation though is that those why we are amending this Act. goods that would have been Thank you. seized should not be kept for a

49 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer long time before they are sold. glitches along the way. As the The intention is to sell them Members are aware, the Bill and pay those who are owed. I shall then be taken to Parliament believe that the Department and in November to be considered those who are tasked with the and it shall be upon them to agree responsibility of auctioning those or disagree with it. There is a goods can be able to dispose possibility that they can suggest of the goods before they need for its withdrawal for further storage. Thank you. consultations however, we are hoping that all the amendments KGOSI MOSEKI: Thank shall be done well and that there you Mr Chairman. I heard the shall be no need to withdraw it. Minister promising that the Bill is being finalised and that it shall MR CHAIRMAN: I can tell that be tabled soon. I hope that it you are now trying to cover your shall indeed be that way because bases beforehand but anyway let back in the year 2010, a similar us continue. promise was made by the then TARRING OF ROAD Minister but to no avail. Thank THAT PASSES NEAR you. DIKGATLHONG DAM MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you FROM MMADINARE Kgosi Justice Moseki. I believe TOWARDS MATSILOJE that the Minister has understood BORDER POST you and noted that you shall KGOSI P. SEELETSO wait with hope. However, he (TONOTA REGION): asked the has explained that the Bill is Minister of Local Government if at an advanced stage and the he will consider tarring the road hope is that the process shall be which passes near Dikgatlhong completed within a short period dam from Mmadinare to Robelela of time in order to make the towards Matsiloje Border Post necessary amendments to that since it is used by tourists from Law. South Africa to Zimbabwe.

H O N O U R A B L E ASSISTANT MINISTER OF MOTOWANE: Thank you Mr LOCAL GOVERNMENT Chairman. I did state that the (HON MOTOWANE): Thank preparations are ongoing and I you, Mr Chairman, there is no do not remember emphasising approved budget in NDP10 for the that there is no possibility of tarring of the road which passes 50 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer near Dikgatlhong Dam from Country Planning Act, therefore Mmadinare to Robelela towards planning and development Matsiloje Border Post. However, functions within the Planning this will be considered amongst Area are governed by the Town other competing priorities in and Country Planning Act (CAP future, funds permitting. 32:09). Mr Chairman, I must admit that my Ministry has KGOSI SEELETSO: Thank received a number of complaints you. It sounds promising Mr from the traders who were given Chairman. a 12 month period to relocate to the industrial area to operate their MR CHAIRMAN: What is so industrial hardwares. In light promising about that because of the foregoing, my Ministry since last year we have been told through Kweneng District about the project being considered Council resolved that starting alongside other priorities? 2011, all industrial hardware Anyway let us continue and not traders who have industrial plots dwell on it. should be given two and a half RELOCATION OF years to relocate to the industrial HARDWARES TO area instead of the initial period INDUSTRIAL SITE IN of 12 months. This was done to MOLEPOLOLE give traders a reasonable time to relocate to alternative premises KGOSI B. GAREBAKWENA in the appropriate land use. Mr (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): Chairman, despite the review asked the Minister of Local of the Molepolole Development Government if he will consider Plan, for 2012/2013, this will not suspending or delaying the relocation of hardwares to change the status quo. I thank Industrial site in Molepolole until you, Mr Chairman. the review of the Molepolole Development Plan is completed KGOSI MACHILIDZA: in 2012/2013. Thank you Mr Chairman. I have a question even though I ASSISTANT MINISTER OF am not too familiar with what LOCAL GOVERNMENT is happening in Molepolole. (HON MOTOWANE): Thank Will there be some form of you Mr Chairman. Molepolole compensation for those people was declared a Planning Area who are being moved? Will they in 1995 under the Town and just be informed to make way for 51 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer new developments without being there because they were allocated given something to help them in those pieces of land. these times of recession? H O N O U R A B L E MR MOTOWANE: Thank you MOTOWANE: Thank you Mr Mr Chairman. The traders are Chairman. The one issue that not being moved by anyone but I can ascertain is that they are rather they were informed of what not being moved to make way the Law stipulates and that is the for any developments. I do not fact that their businesses are not want to mention the names of the located in the right place in terms concerned businesses however, of land uses. Ignorance of the they are not making way for any Law is not an excuse and. The developments. It is unfortunate expectation is that they should that they became part of those look for their own premises traders that had to move when bearing in mind the terms of Molepolole was declared a land uses and land zoning. They planning area. That is why in have to move because where the consultations that were conducted; they were initially they are situated now is illegal given 12 months to move, which and they are not liable for any was then extended to two and compensation. half years. Thank you.

KGOSI LOTLAMORENG KGOSI RAMOKWENA: II: Thank you Mr Chairman. I Thank you Mr Chairman. I want to believe that despite the wanted to enquire from the fact that the area in which these Minister if this Law regarding businesses are located is not zoning for planning areas was suitable, these traders did not enacted before or after those allocate themselves that land. people had already been allocated They were legally placed in those the land? areas. Can an assessment be carried out so that those traders H O N O U R A B L E can be compensated when they MOTOWANE: Thank you Mr move, just as it is always done Chairman. The Law has always when people are requested to been there and what came make way for the developments? afterwards was the declaration of I do not want to believe that those Molepolole village as a planning people are there because they are area. This particular Act has not familiar with the Law but are always been in existence; we can

52 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer acknowledge it in CAP 32:09. some of those people who have The only change is that in 1995, been affected by this declaration Molepolole was included in of Molepolole as a planning this Act hence that question of area do not have plots at the whether designating Molepolole designated industrial area. It is to be a planning area put people however possible for them to at a disadvantage. The aftermath rent unoccupied spaces. That can is they should now comply with assist those who have plots in the the existing legal regime which industrial area to develop them. stipulates designated areas for Thirdly, we do not anticipate each type of business. Thank that there will be any job losses; you. remember that we asked them to KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: relocate to an appropriate area, I wanted to enquire from the not that they should close down. Minister if they first researched to determine the businesses Lastly, I would like to clarify that are going to be affected that these Laws are made so that and the number of employees there can be some regulation on whose jobs will possibly be processes. Currently some of affected. Considering that we are these businesses that I will not currently experiencing recession, state by name will eventually be we are making decisions that conflicting with other business; will eventually lead to job losses. there will also be competition Will he consider engaging the for parking spaces, circulation Council to assist these traders to in terms of traffic and so forth. relocate to areas that will ensure Therefore it is important that we that those people’s jobs are safe accept what the Law states to guarded? Thank you. avoid such possibilities. I would like to reiterate that it was not H O N O U R A B L E stated that these traders should MOTOWANE: Mr Chairman, close down their businesses with the greatest respect to but rather they were instructed Kgosi, I am a bit familiar with to relocate their businesses to Molepolole industrial area, appropriate sites. I am absolutely and there are quite a number of aware that there is substantial undeveloped industrial plots that space in the Molepolole were long allocated there, that is industrial area, which is under- the first point. The second point utilised. The land will end up is that it might be possible that being confiscated either because

53 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer the owners do not have money RELOCATION OF to develop it or they are reluctant ELEPHANTS FROM to develop it for fear of them HAINAVELD remaining unoccupied. It may KGOSI K. RAMOKWENA: come across as a controversial Thank you Mr Chairman. I move on our part however the would like to defer it. Thank fact is that the intention is not for you. them to close their businesses but for them to relocate. Thank you. DESTRUCTION OF VEGETATION BY OVER KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: POPULATED ELEPHANT IN Thank you Mr Chairman. Since THE TULI BLOCK the Minister has indicated that he is indeed certain that there KGOSI M. MALEMA: Asked the Minister of Environment, are undeveloped plots in the Wildlife and Tourism if he is Molepolole Industrial site, is it aware that the over population possible for the land board to give of elephants in the Tuli Block is the land to those traders who can destroying vegetation; if so; afford to develop the land? (i) what measures will he put H O N O U R A B L E in place to cull the elephant MOTOWANE: Those people population to at least five(5) who do not develop their land in each farm; and after allocation run the risk (ii) to replace the lost of experiencing what Kgosi vegetation. is suggesting right now. This would give those who need land ACTING MINISTER OF an opportunity to utilise it so ENVIRONMENT, WILDLIFE that the economy of the country AND TOURISM (HON MASIMOLOLE): Good grows. Thank you. morning Mr Chairman as well KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: as the Honourable Members. My I appreciate the response even Ministry is aware of the damage caused by elephants in the Tuli though he is not ascertaining Block area and the following is whether they will give the plots the state of affairs; to those who need them since that is what I was enquiring. (i) Northern Tuli Block is part Thank you. of the Greater Mapungubwe 54 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer

Transfontier Conservation could go and see the damage that area (GMTFCA), which is was done by those elephants. It is one of the trans-boundary really bad. Thank you. initiatives of dealing with H O N O U R A B L E the Conservation and MASIMOLOLE: Thank Management of the Wildlife you Mr Chairman. I welcome Resources in the region. Kgosi Malema’s question and To this end, Management acknowledge that what he is Plan has been developed enquiring about is of a great to guide the activities concern. As I already stated, it of the conservation and is not easy to restore vegetation management of the wildlife destroyed by elephants. The resources, including intention is for this situation elephants in the region. to be addressed through the The Management Plan will Management plan because it is of also ensure sustainable use great concern to everyone. Thank of the area, by specifying you Mr Chairman. the number of elephants KGOSI MACHILIDZA: Thank which would fall within you Mr Chairman. I would like the carrying capacity of the to thank the Minister for his area. response .The Minister talked (ii) Mr Chairman, my Ministry about the carrying capacity of an is focusing on reducing the area. Can he update the House on the carrying capacity of that elephant population with area? Could he also clarify the the hope that nature will number of excess elephants so then follow in maintaining that we can be able to determine vegetation through re- whether what Kgosi is talking growth, I thank you Mr about is a course for concern or Chairman. not? Thank you.

KGOSI MALEMA: Thank you H O N O U R A B L E Mr Chairman. I wanted to enquire MASIMOLOLE: Thank you Mr from the Minister how they plan Chairman. I cannot say whether to restore the vegetation that the elephants are going to be was destroyed by the elephants culled or how the population is because it is quite extensive. If going to be managed. There are those elephants are not removed certain arrangements being put in that area, we will have a in place and Dikgosi shall be problem. I really wish Dikgosi informed.

55 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer

KGOSI MALEMA: Is the consumers who have not Minister aware that the elephants connected electricity, and are currently moving from that if so; area to Platjaan in search of more vegetation even though that place (iii) how does he intend to has more people. address the problem.

H O N O U R A B L E MR CHAIRMAN: Mr Paya, MASIMOLOLE: Thank you Mr could you please resume your Chairman. We have made those seat. I am not aware that you are observations and we are aware of representing the Minister. The the consequences that are brought practice has always been that if about by these animals. We are the Minister is absent then he or aware that wherever the elephants she can be represented by another pass, they uproot the vegetation. Minister and therefore I have We are paying attention to that never seen what you are trying situation and there are officers to do being done in this House. who have been tasked to come up I will not permit you to give that with ways through which those response. communities can be assisted. ACTING MINISTER OF Thank you. MINERALS, ENERGY AND KGOSI MALEMA: Thank WATER RESOURCES (HON you. MASIMOLOLE): Thank you Mr Chairman. The retail pump DISCONTINUATION OF prices for petrol, diesel and SELLING PARAFFIN BY illuminating paraffin are fully SOME RETAILERS controlled by the Government since the products are considered KGOSI K. BOIDITSWE: to be essential commodities. As Asked the Minister of Minerals, a result, all the profit margins for Energy and Water Resources if both industry and retail margins he is aware; are also regulated. Currently the retail profit margin for petrol, (i) that some retailers who diesel and paraffin is 55 thebe sell paraffin are inclined to per litre, while the industry or discontinue its sale due to wholesale industry profit margin low profit margins, is 45 thebe per litre. The retail (ii) that the non-supply of margins of the three products have paraffin will inconvenience been set deliberately higher than

56 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer the industry margins recognising Oil company which is scheduled the fact that the volumes handled to start its operations in January by retailers are far less than 2013, will deal with this concern the volumes handled by the accordingly since this is part of wholesalers. Notwithstanding the mandate for the new entities the foregoing, my Ministry is ensuring equitable supply of all aware that the local consumption the products to whole nation. volumes for paraffin have The National Oil Company also been dropping since the will establish and implement inception of the national rural a strategy for addressing village electrification scheme. the security and supply and The proportion of paraffin to equitability for supply of fuel to all the three products has since the nation at large. I thank you dropped from 17 percent in Mr Chairman. 2000 to approximately 2 percent KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank by December 2011. Paraffin you Mr Chairman. I have been volumes will continue to drop listening to the Minister’s signalling an improvement in the response. I wanted to emphasize national economy as the public that this decision that has been switches to better and convenient taken by the retailers is really energy resource options such as inconveniencing the paraffin electricity and liquefied petrol consumers. We should also gas. Indeed some retailers are consider those who are at the inclined to discontinue its sale lands and the cattle posts and the particularly those associated with Minister should inform us of what the multinational oil companies. action he will take regarding this In fact, most multinational issue. Thank you. companies have stopped selling paraffin as a result of reduced H O N O U R A B L E cash flows. This development MASIMOLOLE: Thank you has given rise to citizen’s Mr Chairman. I mentioned involvement and participation in earlier on that there is a National the sale of paraffin which is good Oil Company that is planned for for the local economy. Secondly, in this country with the main aim the non-supply of paraffin could of addressing this situation. The inconvenience consumers who intention of the Government is are not connected to electricity that in the not so distant future, for now. In view of the everybody should be having envisaged, Botswana National electricity. That is why the

57 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer price of connecting electricity KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank was reduced at the villages to you Mr Chairman as well as the only cost P5000. Thank you Mr Honourable Minister. Efforts Chairman. should be made because people no longer wish to use candles KGOSI KAHIKO III: I due to the fact that they are heard the Minister saying that dangerous. Thank you. they expect everyone to have connected electricity in their INCREASE OF PAY POINTS homes soon. I want to know FOR WATER BILLS IN how he expects some of us who LARGE VILLAGES LIKE stay at the cattle posts to connect PALAPYE AND SEROWE the electricity when there are no power line grids and where it KGOSI K. BOIDITSWE: asked does not appear like there will the Minister of Minerals, Energy ever be some. and Water Resources if he will consider increasing the number H O N O U R A B L E of pay points for water bills in MASIMOLOLE: Thank you large villages like Palapye and Mr Chairman. The question Serowe. that Kgosi is asking is for the ACTING MINISTER OF Botswana Power Corporation MINERALS, ENERGY AND (BPC), because they have been WATER RESOURCES (HON tasked with the responsibility MASIMOLOLE): Thank you of connecting electricity at the Mr Chairman. Water Utilities villages and the areas where Corporation (WUC) has taken a there is no electricity. What decision to increase the number the Government is currently of pay points in major villages trying to do is to contribute including Palapye and Serowe. To towards that initiative with the this end WUC, in collaboration with Botswana Postal Services, Lesedi Company responsible has decided to open pay points at for connecting solar power. The various Post Offices around the intention is for every Motswana country. Preparations to open a to have electricity connected service point in Serowe Old Mall to their homes and not have a are also ongoing. The service perception of electricity being point is also expected to come only availed to certain people into operation by July 2012. I and places only. Thank you. thank you Mr Chairman.

58 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer

KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank pipes and 500 yard connections you Mr Chairman, Honourable were installed at a cost of 900 000 Minister. pula. The project sponsor at the time was my Ministry i.e. Local PURCHASE OF PREPAID Government through the North WATER METERS FOR East District Council during the MASUNGA PILOT 2005/2006 financial year. During PROJECT implementation of the project two systems of prepaid meters KGOSI M. T. MASUNGA: were installed, being Kent and asked the Minister of Minerals, Conlog. Conlog was installed Energy and Water Resources to in Masunga village. The Conlog state:- equipment that was installed (i) how much was spent to during the project has been purchase prepaid water decommissioned as it proved meters for Masunga Pilot to be expensive to maintain project; following the lapse of the defects liability period. The system (ii) what has since become of was not repairable due to lack the equipment that was of spares in the market. Instead bought; and a whole stand pipe system had to be replaced unlike the Kent (iii) how does the Minister view type whose spares were readily this matter. available. That is when the ACTING MINISTER OF Council decided to discontinue MINERALS, ENERGY AND the use of the Conlog Prepaid WATER RESOURCES (HON Standpipes. The equipment had MASIMOLOLE): Thank you become obsolete. Mr Chairman. I think this has been referred to Ministry of Local Given that Prepaid Water Meter Government and they are ready System was a new technology with the answer Mr Chairman. at the time, pilot projects were undertaken and some of them ASSISTANT MINISTER OF were a success while others LOCAL GOVERNMENT failed. It is common practice (HON MOTOWANE): Thank to undertake pilot projects you Mr Chairman. During prepaid especially when new technology water meter Pilot Project for is involved, to assess its viability Masunga village, 50 public stand before undertaking large scale

59 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer implementation. Following the regarding the progress. I am Water Sector Reforms, the water grateful that the relevant officers supply service for Masunga are here to hear for themselves. village was taken over by Thank you. Water Utilities Corporation in October 2010 (phase III). The KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank you Corporation is currently installing Mr Chairman and Honourable pre-paid water meters at all Minister. public standpipes throughout MR CHAIRMAN: Since you the country. The project is were handling this matter before currently at phase I and Masunga village will be considered in it was taken over by the Water subsequent phases. I thank you Utilities Corporation, Kgosi’s Mr Chairman. request was that maybe your Ministry is the one which should KGOSI MASUNGA: I would go back to the community to like to enquire from the Minister explain the situation. The Water if he does not deem it important to inform the community about Utilities Corporation will take these new developments because over from where you left off. they are still waiting with the H O N O U R A B L E hope that the project will be MOTOWANE: Mr Chairman, completed. Even though you have just explained that it shall I accept that and continue to be completed in the long run it apologise that I did not perform is still important to update them that part of the assignment. since you had promised them the However, issues concerning prepaid meters. Is that not so Sir? water are still part of the Local Thank you. Government even though they have been taken over by the H O N O U R A B L E Water Utilities Corporation. That MOTOWANE: Thank you Mr Chairman. I totally agree with is why it is not a problem for us what Kgosi has said with regards to ask the Ministry of Minerals, to consultations, especially Energy and Water Affairs to when we are talking about the go and explain the situation to developments. Those who are the community and to correct now handling this matter need the mistakes. We do take to consult with the communities responsibility for that mistake so that they can be kept abreast though Mr Chairman. 60 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer

FILLING OF POST OF with Arable Land Development SUPPLIES OFFICER Program (ALDEP), as they have AT MASUNGA TRIBAL indicated an interest in livestock ADMINISTRATION rather than backyard gardens.

KGOSI M. T. MASUNGA MR CHAIRMAN: I do not (NORTH EAST DISTRICT): think there is anybody who is asked the Minister of Local representing the Minister for Government to explain when Presidential Affairs and Public the post of supplies officer at Administration. Masunga Tribal Administration will be filled. KGOSI LEMPADI: I understand Mr Chairman, ASSITANT MINISTER OF however we are concerned that LOCAL GOVERNMENT we are never given the reasons as (HON MOTOWANE): to why no one comes to answer Mr Chairman as well as the our questions. I defer it to a later Honourable Members I would date. like to offer my sincere apologies and explain that it appears like the MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi answer to this question was left Lempadi, even if you are upset behind. I would like to present it you should not speak in a way tomorrow if I can be allowed. that we struggle to hear you. I have never known you to speak KGOSI MASUNGA: There is in that manner but anyway I have no problem Mr Chairman. Thank noted your concern. you. IMPLEMENTATION OF GRANTING CATTLE TO THE RECOMMENDATION HOUSEHOLDS IN THE OF THE BALOPI OKAVANGO REGION COMMISSION

KGOSI K. B. LEMPADI KGOSI M. T. MASUNGA (OKAVANGO REGION): (NORTH EAST DISTRICT): Asked the Minister for asked the Minister for Presidential Affairs and Public Presidential Affairs and Public Administration if he will consider Administration to explain:- granting, under the Poverty Eradication Program, six heads (i) why up to this day of cattle to the households in the the Ministry has not Okavango region as was the case fully implemented the 61 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Compliance to Fishing Regulations

recommendation of the make regulations which provide Balopi Commission with for uniform period of fishing regards to the Constitutional and closing for both Botswana amendment of Sections and Namibians.” Mr Chairman, 77,78,79; and we have got challenges in my area regarding fishing when it (ii) why Government comes to the regulations between Departments are violating Botswana and Namibia. The the provisions of the Laws in our country state that Constitution which have there are certain seasons where been amended by deleting fishing is permitted or suspended. words which had a However, in Namibia they have derogatory connotation. a program whereby the poor are allowed to fish throughout MR CHAIRMAN: Since the the year. The challenge is that Minister for Presidential Affairs since we are fishing from the and Public Administration is not same river, whenever fishing is present, I would like to request not permitted on our side, they Kgosi to defer the question. continue fishing on their side. KGOSI MASUNGA: I would This is the reason why I am like to withdraw the question so requesting our Government as that I can resubmit it in the form well as that of Namibia to hold of a Motion Mr Chairman. Thank talks to discuss how this problem you. can be addressed. The reason why fishing is occasionally suspended MR CHAIRMAN: Thank is to allow the fish to breed. There you Kgosi Masunga. We have should be an agreement on a concluded this morning’s uniform suspension of fishing for question session. both sides. The other challenge is that there are certain agreements COMPLIANCE TO FISHING that the Namibians flout like REGULATIONS engaging some Zambians to fish on their behalf in our country. Motion Some were caught recently. Since the Laws of these two countries KGOSI SINVULA: Thank you are not similar...( interruption) Mr Chairman. I would like to bring forward a motion which KGOSI MACHILIDZA: Mr reads thus, “that this Honourable Chairman I am aware that fish fall House requests Government to under the Ministry of Agriculture.

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I therefore do not see the Minister you Mr Chairman. I have been anywhere amongst those two listening to Kgosi’s presentation Ministers from the Ministry of and I became confused when Local Government and that of the he stated that there are different Ministry of Education and Skills times set for fishing between the development. Is there anybody two countries. If I could know representing him? Thank you. when fishing is permitted locally and when the Namibians have ASSISTANT MINISTER OF theirs, perhaps I would be able EDUCATION AND SKILLS to understand the degree of the DEVELOPMENT (HON MASIMOLOLE): Thank you problem. I did not mean to ask Mr Chairman. Fish and tourism questions at this stage however, issues fall under the Ministry I need that clarification before I of Environment, Wildlife debate. and Environment and I am representing the Minister. MR CHAIRMAN: You want to make my job difficult because MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you you are repeating what I was Honourable Minister. advising you against yesterday. Procedurally, it should be very KGOSI SINVULA: I was just clear what the mover of the about to finish Mr Chairman. The motion wants to drive home so reasons I have given are the ones that when it is time to debate, that prompted me to table this we should not be seeking motion. I thank you Mr Chairman clarifications in the midst of the and Honourable Minister. debate. According to the Rules MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you of Procedure, “a member called Kgosi Sinvula. Honourable upon by the Chairperson to move Members you have been listening a motion shall arise in his place to Kgosi Sinvula presenting his and after making such remarks as motion before this House and he may wish to make shall move giving reasons as to why he the motion, stating its terms.” wishes for the other Members Therefore in order to move a to support him. I shall now motion one must state all the allow Members to debate Kgosi reasons that will make it possible Sinvula’s motion. for the other Members to debate from an informed point of view. KGOSI BOIDITSWE Since Kgosi Boiditswe has asked (SEROWE REGION): Thank a question, could Kgosi Sinvula 63 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Compliance to Fishing Regulations answer him so that we can of Wildlife and Environment. continue with the debate. Such occurrences can bring about confusion. Information KGOSI SINVULA: Thank should be shared with people to you Mr Chairman. The fishing avoid situations where we shall activities are suspended from be surprised at the way things March up to April. In our country are done. I am grateful that the the suspension period goes for Minister has clarified that. Mr two months, however in Namibia Chairman, we do understand what fishing is only suspended for one Kgosi is saying however, Namibia and half months around the same just like any other country, has period. got its own regulations. Kgosi mentioned that he belongs to a MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you certain committee in Okavango, Kgosi Sinvula. Honourable perhaps it is through that kind Members Kgosi has made that of forum that this issue can be clarification and therefore you addressed. We are not aware of can now debate. the breeding patterns of the fish KGOSI MACHILIDZA that side, perhaps they do not (BOTETI REGION): Thank breed during the same period as you Mr Chairman. You shall ours. It would have been better stop me when the time is up .I if there had been enquiries to understood what Kgosi is saying clarify if it is upon that particular and it is a good move to advocate country to determine its fishing for fairness in procedures. This seasons or if at all they can be made uniform in order to avoid will avoid situations where any confusion. people might be tempted to cross over to the Namibian side to fish Namibia is a country that we during the suspensions this side enjoy cordial relations with and and probably end up drowning in they even have an ambassador in the process. Firstly, I would like this country. We also have one in to express that it seems there are their country therefore; this matter certain changes that are occurring can be resolved amicably. Kgosi in our country without us being is suggesting that the fishing aware Mr Chairman. We have all periods should be the same. I along known that fish fall within do not see what the problem can the mandate of the Ministry of be since we are already working Agriculture but today we heard with the Namibian country on that they are under the Ministry a number of things. I feel that 64 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Compliance to Fishing Regulations

Kgosi has brought a good motion This could be an interim move and I support it. Our Ministers whilst arrangements are still from the relevant Ministries made to change their processes. I should take this matter seriously therefore appeal to the mover of so that this issue can be resolved. the motion to re-phrase it but if Thank you Mr Chairman. he does not agree then it is still fine. MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you Kgosi Machilidza. We can now MR CHAIRMAN: I do not go for tea and come back at 11 think that this is an issue of o’clock. whether he agrees or not. The Rules state that with regards to PROCEEDINGS the amendments to motions, ‘any SUSPENDED FOR TEA Member who has risen to speak on a question raised by a motion MR CHAIRMAN: When may propose an amendment to we adjourned for tea Kgosi Machilidza had just concluded that motion”. It goes on to explain his debate on the motion by Kgosi how an amendment can be made, Sinvula. We can now continue be it by removing a certain word from where we left off. or changing some words. It also says that, “as soon an amendment KGOSI KAHIKO III has been moved, the Secretary (GHANDZI WEST REGION): shall put the amendment into Thank you Mr Chairman. I writing as directed by the understood Kgosi Sinvula’s mover”, who in this case is Kgosi motion but I propose that he Kahiko. It states that, “a mover should make an amendment to shall hand the text thereof to this motion because he is talking the Chairperson who shall there about regulations and it appears upon propose the question to the like we would be making a Law Ntlo ya Dikgosi. A debate may for the Namibian country. I then take place on the question suggest that we should rephrase raised by the amendment”. the motion to read thus, “that The amended motion reads this Honourable House requests thus, “that this Honourable Government to consider entering House request Government to into bilateral national agreement consider entering into bilateral with the Government of Namibia national arrangement with the to provide for uniform period Government of Namibia to of fishing and closing for both make regulations which provide Batswana and Namibians.” for uniform period of fishing 65 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Compliance to Fishing Regulations and closing for both Batswana falls within the Ministries of the and Namibians.” That is the same portfolio between the two amendment that Kgosi Kahiko countries however, even if they has brought before the House and do not it does not matter because the Rules of Procedure state that, if Botswana can come up with “the Chairman shall thereupon a proposal it shall be forwarded propose the question to the Ntlo to the relevant department in ya Dikgosi.” Do we agree with Namibia. Mr Chairman, this the amendment brought in by motion should be taken seriously Kgosi Kahiko regarding Kgosi because some people depend on Sinvula’s motion? fishing as a form of earning their livelihood. If our counterparts in Amendment to the motion - Namibia can be allowed to fish as agreed to. they please then others this side will suffer. I asked Kgosi Sinvula MR CHAIRMAN: This then to clarify where the times differ means that the new motion because I take it that when the reads thus, “that this Honourable river is full and there is plenty of House request Government to fish, our Namibian counterparts consider entering into bilateral tend to fish excessively. We are national arrangement with the all aware that even if a Law can Government of Namibia to be made, there are other people make regulations which provide who always find ways to go for uniform period of fishing against it. If the Namibians are and closing for both Batswana doing something of that nature, and Namibians.” I believe that then they shall be shown their the motion is clear and that mistake. The same will apply you understand why it is being to the fishermen in Botswana. phrased that way. I shall now I therefore understand this allow the Members to debate the amendment and I agree with motion. I believe that this does Kgosi Sinvula’s motion because not change the gist of the debate I believe that this situation is in anyway. badly affecting them, that is KGOSI BOIDITSWE why he has seen it fit to bring (SEROWE REGION): Thank this motion. The Namibian and you Mr Chairman. It is clear Botswana Governments have and I would like to declare that good relations and I do not I support this motion. We are think anyone can be against the not aware whether the issue proposals. Thank you.

66 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Compliance to Fishing Regulations

KGOSI TSHIPE We cannot make borders within (MAHALAPYE REGION): a river or demarcate it in anyway. Thank you Mr Chairman. I I support this motion however; stand to support this motion. The I would like to state that we mover of the motion was trying should not only involve Namibia to demonstrate that something is in this issue. Four countries share not going well and for things to this river and they are mainly go well there should be uniform Namibia, Zambia, Zimbabwe and fishing periods between the two Botswana and therefore the same countries. As Kgosi Boiditswe regulations should be applicable indicated, if the fishing periods are to all these four countries. Thank different, the Namibian fishermen you. will have an opportunity to get KGOSI LEMPADI bigger fish whilst by the time the (OKAVANGO REGION): fishing period starts in Botswana Thank you Mr Chairman. I there will only be smaller fish. do not support this motion If the fishing period is made Honourable Members, the uniform then everyone will get main reason being that we use a fair chance and that is what different forms of fishing. Other Kgosi Sinvula is advocating for. people use fishing nets, spears As Kgosi Kahiko has indicated and reed fish traps that are no in his reasons for amending the motion, I take it that it shall make longer used in our country. I do handling this issue much simpler. not think that dictating to other With those few words, I support countries what to do regarding the motion Mr Chairman. their traditional fishing methods is a good move. I feel that it can KGOSI POTSOENG (NGAMI be a source of conflicts between REGION): Thank you Mr the Governments, therefore I Chairman. I stand to support totally do not support the motion. this motion and to indicate that Thank you. the reasons stated by Kgosi Sinvula in his submission are KGOSI MOETI II quite comprehensible. Those (SPECIALLY ELECTED): who know about fishing will tell Good morning Mr Chairman you that fish have got certain and Honourable Members. migratory patterns. Those are Kgosi Sinvula’s motion is very some of the factors that should important and I think that Kgosi be considered so that other Lempadi did not understand it people are not at a disadvantage. well since it is talking about

67 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Compliance to Fishing Regulations periods of fishing and not not uncommon for two countries necessarily the methods. The which share a common resource motion can be addressed through to have a mutual understanding a forum like the Southern African on how they can share that Development Community resource. We know that certain (SADC). The other issue is Government Ministries are that the international standard responsible for that arrangement practice is that fish should be and as I already indicated, it is given time to breed as well. something that has happened The international animal groups before. If there are any agreements advocate for the practice as well. to be made between Botswana Such an arrangement could assist and Namibia as well as other us in various ways. Perhaps it concerned countries that were should be discussed that those mentioned by Kgosi Potsoeng, countries involved should have then they should be made. The uniform fishing periods in order relevant Ministries from the to avoid any potential conflicts concerned countries should sign between countries. As Kgosi memorandums of understanding has already indicated, there are about the issues that affect them some people whose livelihood both. Agreements will reduce the solely depends on fishing. arising conflicts between the two There are fishing companies countries. which alternate between the two countries during the different As other Members have also fishing seasons. Fish are just the indicated, this would give the same, they breed at the same time fish a chance to breed hence and therefore fishing periods increase in numbers so that should be made uniform. I do even if they are caught in large not see any problems regarding quantities they would not this motion. It is also evident become extinct. Perhaps even that Batswana take this issue the proper methods of catching of giving fish a chance to breed fish can also be included in that seriously and they understand why it has to be done. In the past agreement and avoid ways which we used to fish throughout the could possibly harm the growth year and this therefore is a good of the fish population. It could initiative. Thank you Sir. be ascertained as to whether the fishing methods adhere to the KGOSI GAREBAKWENA international standards. In short (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): I would like to reiterate that I Thank you Mr Chairman. It is support this motion. Thank you.

68 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Compliance to Fishing Regulations

KGOSI MONNAATHEBE cease fishing that might be when (THAMAGA REGION): Thank the fish are breeding t tha side. you Mr Chairman. I cannot That actually indicates that the support this motion because as cultures are different when it Batswana, we know that certain comes to this situation. They periods are for breeding and so I have an understanding of the believe that even the Namibians breeding patterns of fish whilst have determined their periods of fishing looking at those reasons. we have our own. I also believe It is difficult for me to support that there might be clashes if it before Botswana can hold we set the fishing periods at the bilateral talks with Namibia same time since everyone would in order to determine whether now flock over to fish at the same it is possible for fishing to be time. That is why I am saying conducted around the same that it is difficult for me o...t period. It might happen that during the talks Namibia could KGOSI POTSOENG: I wanted declare a period that they wish the Honourable Member to to allow fishing and that may explain if at all he is aware that coincide with our closed fishing the river that we are talking about season. That would put us in is the same river that carries those an awkward position because fish? We are not talking about it would be against our cultural two different rivers. practices. I also feel that if we set a uniform fishing period then that KGOSI MONNAATHEBE: might cause some conflicts. Mr Chairman as the Honourable KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: Member has just.... On point of clarification, Mr KGOSI LEMPADI Chairman, could Kgosi clarify (OKAVANGO REGION): for us if fish in Botswana and On a point of clarification. Mr Namibia breed at different Chairman I would like to clarify seasons? this issue once and for all. Fish KGOSI MONNAATHEBE: breed during the season when I think the breeding season is there is ample food. They are just during the time when fishing like livestock and the fish that we is suspended and that is why I are talking about do not originate was saying that perhaps during from Namibia but rather they the period that the Namibians come flowing with the river from

69 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Compliance to Fishing Regulations

Angola. The control of fishing our colleagues from Namibia, therefore has to start in Angola. we should bear in mind that they Fish do not breed anytime they might set a period that might not please and if the food they eat is favour us. This is why I am not ample that is when they breed. in support of this motion. Thank I also want us to remember that you. on our side, we suspend fishing MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you entirely whilst on the Namibian Kgosi Monnaathebe. Honourable side; the poor are allowed to Members let us remember to read continue fishing during the the Rules of Procedure in order suspension period in order for to differentiate the difference them to survive, let us bear that between standing on a point in mind as we debate. of order and standing to make MR CHAIRMAN: Were you clarifications. Anyway let me responding on behalf of Kgosi leave it at that. Monnaathebe? KGOSI TELEKELO KGOSI MONNAATHEBE (MOSHUPA REGION): Thank (THAMAGA REGION): you Mr Chairman. I would also Thank you Mr Chairman. The like to greet the Honourable Honourable Member has already Members and state that I am answered that one and in light not familiar with the rivers of his clarification I would like that are being discussed here. to emphasise that we have to However, I have seen them reach an agreement as countries depicted in pictures. From what involved so that when we make I saw in the pictures, there are certain decisions here then we no demarcations, therefore I would be deciding on something believe that the same fish swim that has been agreed upon. I am anywhere in that river and they sceptical about supporting this cannot be said to have crossed motion before discussing with into Botswana nor Namibia. Mr all the relevant stakeholders. I Chairman, the practice is that the also considered that as Batswana countries which share borders we have got taboos for example, have got certain agreements on there are trees that we believe the timelines that their borders can only be cut during certain should be open in order to aid periods and there might be certain the movement of people in or taboos when it comes to the fish out of their countries. Therefore, as well. When we discuss with I believe that failure to have

70 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Compliance to Fishing Regulations standard periods of fishing is a Kahiko. We have taken into mistake that should be rectified. serious consideration what the I believe that the issue is mainly House has said regarding the fact focused on the river in question that agreements concerning the and not the areas in Namibia fishing periods should be made where fish can be caught. The between Botswana and Namibia. focus is on standardising the I should start off by explaining fishing periods between the that there are talks that have two countries. I have noticed been going on between these two that the only difference is that countries. There is the Botswana/ others fish for a period of two Namibia Joint Permanent months whilst others only fish Commission on Cooperation that for a month and a half. I do not was initiated after realising that see any problem in agreeing on a there are those inconsistencies common ground. Mr Chairman, even though there is only one even though I do not have any river. We shall be continuing extensive knowledge about this with the talks especially since issue, from the debates that I the Members have been showing have heard I feel that I should their concerns. Kgosi Potsoeng support this motion because I suggested in his deliberations that cannot understand how the times the talks should involve the four came to be different despite the rivers of Namibia, Botswana, fact that we are dealing with the Zambia and Zimbabwe. I agree same resource. Thank you Mr with him however, there should Chairman. be the fifth country which is MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you Angola where the river originates Kgosi Telekelo. I believe that from and this suggests intense the Honourable Members have talks. debated this motion and it is now time for the Minister to respond. I should explain that in Botswana, the suspension of the ACTING MINISTER OF fishing period is from January ENVIRONMENT, WILDLIFE to February; however the AND TOURISM (HON suspension is lifted from March MASIMOLOLE): Thank you to December. I take it that this is a Mr Chairman as well as the relatively long time and I should Honourable Members present. explicitly state that in Namibia I shall be responding to the there is no Law that states that motion as amended by Kgosi fishing should be suspended 71 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Compliance to Fishing Regulations during certain periods. As a Batswana so that they are not Government, we felt that it is not disadvantaged in this issue. I right for things to happen in that thank you Mr Chairman. manner. In that way we resolved MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you that there should be talks through Honourable Minister. I believe which we can agree on how that this is the time for Kgosi things should be done. Sinvula to conclude and thank The Members have explained all those who contributed to the that there are also times when debate. hunting is suspended in order KGOSI SINVULA to give the animals a chance to (SPECIALLY ELECTED): breed so that they can increase Thank you Mr Chairman. At and fish should also considered. one point I was concerned I take that it is only right to agree that perhaps I might not have with the neighbouring countries presented the issues as well as I and as the Members have already should have. I am however very indicated, the fish are not aware grateful for the response the that the countries are demarcated Minister has given. I am grateful by borders and they just swim to Kgosi Kahiko for amending wherever they wish. We shall not the motion in order to make it be discussing about the methods easier to debate. I also thank all that should be used when fishing those who opposed the motion, it but rather the talks are in regard to is not a problem because I shall an agreement on fishing seasons. oppose theirs one day. Thank you This will be part of the talks that Mr Chairman. are ongoing about issues of land use in the Okavango, Zambezi MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you and Gaza Frontier Area. Mr Kgosi Sinvula. I take it that Chairman, I believe that this all that is said in this House is motion is very relevant and it has important and therefore do not come at a time when progress be too concerned about being has already been made regarding opposed. You should appreciate the talks and we agree with it. that most of the Members We should pay attention to such supported your motion. With that issues and take the advice that is said Honourable Members we given and even though there was have concluded Kgosi Sinvula’s already something being done motion. As it is the practice, it is still important to protect at the end of every debate of a

72 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Decentralisation of Issuance of Mophane Worm Harvesting Licence motion the question is put to takes place and there are lot of ascertain whether the Members concerns that emanate as a result agree with the motion or not. of this activity. People come as Those who agree with the motion far as Mmathethe to harvest the should indicate by saying ‘aye’ worm at Topisi and they do that and those who are against it without the knowledge of Kgosi should say ‘no.’ I think the ‘ayes’ in that area. There are instances have it. where people from South Africa have even come to harvest the Question put and agreed to. Mophane worm in that area without the knowledge of Kgosi. DECENTRALISATION OF The permits would have been ISSUANCE OF MOPHANE issued elsewhere and as a result WORM HARVESTING there is no way the community LICENCE or the leadership can monitor Motion the situation to determine whether those people would be MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI doing things in an appropriate GABORONE): This is the manner since they did not second motion and I believe issue the permits. This is why that Honourable Masimolole is permits should be issued from still responsible. I want to avoid the locality where the harvesting situations like the one earlier would be taking place with the on when there was confusion as Kgosi present. There have been to which ministry the fish fall instances where people got lost within. whilst harvesting the Mophane KGOSI K. BOIDITSWE worm and Kgosi would not be (SEROWE REGION): Thank aware of that or even know who you Mr Chairman. Due to the that person is. There are also concerns that are arising regarding health risks associated with this this issue I felt that procedures because if there is no monitoring should be laid down regarding the harvesters will leave dirt all Mophane worm harvesting. The around. It is a well known fact permits for harvesting should that livestock is not supposed to be allocated from the village ingest human faeces. If a cow Kgotla where the Mophane has ingested the faeces chances worm is harvested so that there are that it might end up having can be monitoring. I come from measles because of those worms an area where such an activity inhabiting it. The situation is 73 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Decentralisation of Issuance of Mophane Worm Harvesting Licence currently uncontrollable however, South Africa do not. They begin I believe that should those people harvesting at the stage when it announce their presence to Kgosi has not fully matured and even at when they first arrive then he or the stage where the worms leave she could caution them against the trees and reaches pupation leaving the environment dirty. underground, they continue to It could also work because harvest. By doing so, they disturb Kgosi would then be able to the life cycle which is completed occasionally send people to when the adult moths emerge inspect and give reports of the from the pupae, mate and lay situation. Upon completion they eggs. This all happens because could also update Kgosi of their there is no monitoring of these return and their wellbeing. people’s harvesting. On the way There is also a concern that the from Palapye by the turn that harvesters steal water from the leads to Tamasane, the mophane boreholes at night and that might worm is not there anymore be hazardous to their health. If because overharvesting of this Kgosi is aware of their presence, worm has led to its extinction. prior arrangements could be Mr Chairman, those are the made as to where they can get concerns that we have and their water. I do not see a problem therefore action should be taken with what I am proposing, rather because otherwise Batswana it can be useful. An arrangement shall remain impoverished due could be made for an agriculture to these practices. The Mophane officer to be stationed at those worm is important because its particular villages during the sales enable people to buy school harvesting period to assist uniforms for their children. I with the monitoring. If there believe that through monitoring is monitoring, there will be a Kgosi can be able to inform the determination of whether the harvesters to stop the harvest Mophane worm is ready to when the time is due. With those be harvested or not. I say this few remarks, I thank you Mr because the worm starts off as a Chairman. butterfly and eventually reaches a stage where it is a worm. What MR CHAIRMAN: We have happens is that although the heard Kgosi Boiditswe’s concern locals might be aware of the stage regarding people who harvest at which the worm is ready for the Mophane worm even at the harvesting our neighbours from stage where it is ready to pupate

74 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Decentralisation of Issuance of Mophane Worm Harvesting Licence underground. We can now debate on whether issuing of the permits this issue Honourable Members. would be the sole responsibility of the Kgosi? I believe that if KGOSI NDZONGA (TUTUME the issuing of the permits is REGION): Thank you Mr decentralised then there would Chairman. I stand to support be a certain amount of money Kgosi Boiditswe’s motion. I that would be paid towards come from an area where there is getting a permit. I would like to Mophane worm and what Kgosi understand the issue of Kgosi has just been saying is the truth. collecting money. Will he/she fall People harvest the worm whilst under the Village Development it is still at its earliest stages. As Committee (VDC) or the Tribal soon as it has been spotted people Administration? I ask this move with the younger children because I take it that Dikgosi do to the forests and the children are not have the capacity to collect the ones who normally get lost. money. Perhaps the mover could They would then harvest these clarify that one for me so as to worms until there is nothing left. understand. Thank you. The Mophane worm is normally harvested during the rainy seasons MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi and the harvesters build shelters Boiditswe could you please using plastics which they then clarify that point. leave behind when they complete KGOSI BOIDITSWE: By their harvest. The harvest is done referring to Kgosi as the issuer of in grazing lands so; we remain permits, I am actually taking into with the challenges of our cattle cognisance the fact that Kgosi eating plastics that have been has the staff that he can assign to left behind by the harvesters. perform those duties. He will just If the issuing of permits can be be overseeing the entire process decentralised to Dikgotla then it and after certain considerations would make things easier since the departments could allocate Kgosi could have the authority some of their employees to issue to monitor the environment and those permits. We know that ensure that the harvesters leave Court clerks always take the everything as it should be. Thank fines that are paid at the Kgotla to you. the revenue offices and therefore KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH the same can be done with the EAST DISTRICT): Thank you relevant Ministry ensuring that Mr Chairman. I need clarification the money is collected. I believe

75 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Decentralisation of Issuance of Mophane Worm Harvesting Licence that I have clarified the issue Mr motion simply because I have Chairman. Thank you. noticed that the Mophane worm has almost become extinct in MR CHAIRMAN: Thank the area where I come from. It is you Kgosi Boiditswe. Was that true that Dikgosi can assist when satisfactory enough for you it comes to this issue because Kgosi Masunga? they will be aiding the relevant Ministry in achieving its goals. KGOSI MASUNGA: I Thank you. understood him Mr Chairman. I agree with the motion due to the KGOSI TSHIPE fact that we are faced with that (MAHALAPYE REGION): big problem. As we all know, Thank you Mr Chairman. I stand we have another challenge of to fully support this motion and illegal sand mining whereby I will relate this issue to the there is no proper monitoring presentation that Honourable by the Department of Mining Mokaila once gave when he regarding this issue. This lack explained that the monitoring of monitoring has led to a lot of of the natural resources like damage. On this motion, I can the Mophane worm, firewood say that Mophane worm is no and thatching grass shall be re- longer abundant due to different introduced to form part of the reasons. Those who harvest the responsibilities of Dikgosi. I worm do so without any regard believe that when Kgosi came up to the fact that the worm has to be with this motion he was driving sustained. I take it that Dikgosi to an arrangement of that sort would perform the duty of because this is an issue of great issuance of permits well, I would concern. As it has already been have especially preferred it if the indicated, the department of responsibility would have been forestry and National parks is the given to the department of Tribal one currently responsible for the Administration. The only problem issuance of these permits. The is that the department is currently problem that arises is that they grappling with the problem of do not monitor afterwards to unclaimed compensatory funds. ensure that those people leave the The mover of the motion has environment in a good state. Such highlighted though that there lack of monitoring then leads to shall be collaboration between a lot of problems because there the relevant departments which I have been veldt fires in some believe could work. I support this instances and if such happens

76 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Decentralisation of Issuance of Mophane Worm Harvesting Licence then it is up to Kgosi and the this issue to the one regarding community to put out the fire. the cutting down of trees because As the mover indicated, people you will find someone having cut also get lost. If these things are down the entire forest whilst on not monitored Mr Chairman, we the other hand we are encouraged shall experience the extinction of to take care of our trees. When some of the natural resources that you enquire, the person will we have in our country. When inform you that they got a permit it comes to the issue of grass from Shakawe that allowed him cutting, when harvesters leave to cut down those trees in Etsha their villages, their Kgosi should 6. write to the Kgosi of the area I believe that if those permits where they will be harvesting the grass to indicate where those could be issued from Dikgotla people come from. Such could then Dikgosi would have an be done regarding the harvesting opportunity to monitor what is of the Mophane worm as well so happening and advice where that Dikgosi can be in possession necessary. I take it that this is a of information regarding those clear motion. It should not come people’s whereabouts. Thank across as if we want everything to you. be under our authority but rather it is to assist one another. There KGOSI SEEMEKO should be proper procedures laid (SPECIALLY ELECTED): down. I believe that I shall be Thank you Mr Chairman and the last to debate on this issue good afternoon to you all. I as I do not believe that there can stand to support this motion be anyone who can be against Mr Chairman. I was listening what has already been said. Mr intently to the Honourable Chairman, I thank you. Member’s presentation regarding his motion. I believe that this KGOSI GAREBAKWENA can assist us in our villages as (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): Dikgosi. Currently an appeal has Thank you Mr Chairman. Kgosi been made to us to take care of Masunga indicated that the our environment. Some parties department of Mines regulates have even indicated that Dikgosi the issues regarding soil as well as do not do much regarding its harvesting. I believe that there environmental care, however is a similar regulation concerning the issue is the structures that we the Mophane worm. In my view have. Mr Chairman, I compare it is important for Dikgosi to 77 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Decentralisation of Issuance of Mophane Worm Harvesting Licence have a contribution and regulate The money would be collected by the harvesting of this worm. It is the staff of that department and important to note that everything Dikgosi would be responsible has to be done according to the for nominating the people who rules and without the Law giving could accompany the officers Dikgosi the authority and stating from the Forestry and National how things should be done, parks department in determining then things will not go well. I where the Mophane worm can be agree with the motion however harvested. This would be unlike I believe that with responsibility what they currently do whereby there should be legal authority they just issue permits without given to Dikgosi as well as the stating the exact places for necessary resources to carry harvest. They could ensure that out those duties well. Without some places remain untouched any legal authority there will so that the moth gets a chance to be nothing that compels people mate and lay eggs and whoever to adhere to what Kgosi says. would be caught going against Thank you. what the permit states would be held liable. Perhaps if the MR CHAIRMAN: Earlier exception could be made to on I was not ignoring Kgosi harvest in an undesignated area Seemeko’s remarks that since we it would be for the locals who are agreeing on this motion then would be not harvesting for we should not repeat what has business purposes. Thank you. already been said by the other Members. I just wanted to caution KGOSI MACHILIZDA: Thank the Members that they should try you Mr Chairman. I believe that as to contribute something different the other Members have indicated from what the others have said so it is possible for Dikgosi to issue that we save time. the permits for the harvesting of the Mophane worm. We already KGOSI SEELETSO issue permits for cattle and we (TONOTA REGION): Thank also handle cash sometimes and you Mr Chairman. I am going therefore it is not going to be to say something different. One anything new. The time has come of the routes that can be taken is for the Government to look into that the permits can be issued by this issue broadly and consider the department of Forestry and that since the worm is harvested National parks in the presence of during certain seasons, when the Kgosi of that particular area. that time comes, those people

78 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Decentralisation of Issuance of Mophane Worm Harvesting Licence can be provided with portable of permits has been decentralised toilets. Since the Government to Districts as well as the Sub- wants to eradicate poverty, the districts where the Mophane Mophane worm could be one of worm is found in abundance. It is the ways through which people the responsibility of my Ministry can earn a living. People should to ensure that these services be empowered so that they can continue to be brought closer to develop interest in the mophane the people. An arrangement is worm just like they were being made in order to have what empowered when it comes to is referred to as a Mobile Permit farming which is now something Issuing System so that it can be that is done well in this country. easier to access those people who Thank you. harvest the Mophane worm. Other suggestions by the Members were MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you that rotational harvesting could Kgosi Machilidza. I believe that be done whereby some areas we have said all that needed to be could remain untouched during said and I shall allow the Minister a particular harvest season so as to respond. to avoid possible extinction and those are some ways we have ACTING MINISTER OF been planning to explore. ENVIRONMENT, WILDLIFE AND TOURISM (HON My belief is that we shall continue MASIMOLOLE): Thank you to engage Dikgosi regarding Mr Chairman. I would like to this issue because it affects the start off by explaining that at the communities that you lead. The beginning of the Mophane worm Members also mentioned giving harvesting period which was Dikgosi the legal authority and from December 2011 to January also the resources necessary 2012, in the central region we to carry out this responsibility decentralised the services of and we agree with that because issuance of permits. This was to currently the situation is that try to curb instances that Kgosi even if Dikgosi could collect Boiditswe talked about whereby any money, there will be no safe people left the environment dirty place to keep it. We also agree and there was nobody to be held with the fact that there should be accountable at the end of the day. a Law that will give Dikgosi the If such services could be cascaded authority to monitor this situation to Dikgotla then there would be because without it people will not proper monitoring. The issuance be inclined to do what is asked

79 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Packaging of Beverages in Plastic or Tin Containers of them. Dikgosi should work with this issue and we are in with the Village Development agreement. We have already Committee (VDC) to determine started some of the programs how they can contribute to this related to this motion as of last initiative. To cite an example, year. Thank you Mr Chairman. during the 100 km desert race MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you the Kumakwane VDC managed Honourable Minister. to raise some funds so that it can coordinate the cleaning of KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank that area once the race was over. you Mr Chairman, Honourable Kgosi Boiditswe mentioned Minister. that because of the littering that is done by the harvesters the MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you cattle can end up eating that Kgosi Boiditswe. We shall now and get affected by diseases like vote on the motion to determine measles which would render it who agrees with it and who does not suitable for sale. Those are not. I think the ayes have it. some of the issues that compel Question put- agreed to us to welcome this motion. Consultations shall be made to PACKAGING OF determine how we can work BEVERAGES IN PLASTIC together in order to assist each OR TIN CONTAINERS other. Earlier on we talked about allowing fish a time to breed so Motion that their population can multiply MR CHAIRMAN: Is there any and the same applies to the Minister responsible for this Mophane worm. We know that in motion? areas like the central district and in the North where the Mophane KGOSI SEELETSO: Thank worm is mostly concentrated, you Mr Chairman. I request the you will discover that it is not Honourable Members to support everyone who harvests it for sale me on the motion which reads purposes. Other people harvest thus, “That this Honourable it for domestic consumption just House requests Government like the fish we were discussing to make regulations specifying earlier. Mr Chairman, as it is that beverages should be packed sometimes said in Setswana, in plastic containers or tins as “mafoko a kgotla a mantle breakable bottles are hazardous otlhe” we have thoroughly dealt to motorists, pedestrians and

80 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Packaging of Beverages in Plastic or Tin Containers children.” Mr Chairman, this instead continued to break the is not just a personal concern bottles on the road. but rather it is a general public concern of late. The Law states Mr Chairman, since it is evident that alcohol should be taken from that people find it difficult to take the designated areas which in alcohol in the designated areas this case would be the bars and then the next best thing would be other restaurants. Alternatively, to package it in plastic and tins one could purchase it from a or even paper containers like it is liquor outlet to drink at home. the case with the Chibuku brew. However, that is not what people I was embarrassed the other day do Mr Chairman. The patrons when I saw those bottles along buy alcohol and drink it by the the A1 road. It appeared like road side and from there they some people had been drinking will leave their empty bottles from that spot and I was surprised lying around. Lately there is this that such acts occur in big towns practice of breaking those bottles as well. All this damage our on the road and people get their vehicles and causes a great harm tyres pierced by these bottles. to people. My presentation is this They also have a potential of short Mr Chairman and I appeal injuring our children as they to the Honourable Members cross these roads because some to support me on this motion. do not even put on shoes. These Thank you. are some of the reasons that KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II have compelled me to bring this (BAROLONG): Thank you Mr motion. If alcohol is contained Chairman. I understand Kgosi in tins or plastics, they cannot Seeletso’s concerns. Even though damage anything or even cause I agree with him that there are any harm. There is this beer such problems I have got few which is in green bottles which reservations regarding the motion. people are fond of, I think there I do not believe that packaging must be some ingredient in it that the alcoholic beverages in plastic makes people to lose their minds. containers or tins can have any Mr Chairman, I once saw one effect on the way people drink. woman going about breaking The important issue is to educate those bottles on the road in broad Batswana about the dangers of daylight I even approached her to abusing alcohol. Perhaps we can enquire what she was doing. She even put stringent measures in did not bother to answer me but place regarding disposal of these

81 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Packaging of Beverages in Plastic or Tin Containers alcohol bottles. We have increased KGOSI LEMPADI the number of police officers (OKAVANGO): Thank you because we now have volunteers, Mr Chairman. I understand these are the people who can Kgosi Seeletso’s motion and his monitor this situation and ensure concerns. The fact of the matter that people who carry out such is that we have got Laws that are actions are taken to task. It is not aimed at dealing with the issue of only alcohol which is contained littering that are not enforced and in bottles. There are juices and changing the containers of the other drinks that are packaged alcoholic drinks will not solve in that manner and those bottles anything. To cite an example, can be dangerous as well. Mr there is one alcoholic drink Chairman, it is difficult for me called Windhoek Lager which to support this motion because is manufactured in Germany. most of the alcoholic drinks that It is a favourite amongst many are consumed in Botswana do Batswana and it is in a green not originate locally especially bottle, perhaps it is the one that the ones contained in those green Kgosi is talking about. As Kgosi bottles. They are manufactured Seeletso mentioned, there is that in countries like South Africa, form of litter all over the town Namibia and Germany. A typical and we have the Police who fail example is that there is no single to enforce the Law. It is also whisky that is made in Botswana. illegal for someone to drink on It would therefore be difficult to the streets, if people can do that, it dictate to the Germans how to shows that the Law enforcers are package their whiskeys or tell not doing their duty. The House the South Africans to package will remember that alcohol used their wines in a certain manner. to be contained in tins and the Those that are produced locally health sector indicated that it is are the ones which might be not healthy because at times the possible to consider changing drinks could stay on the shelf their packaging. Mr Chairman, for more than six months. They I believe that the best way is explained that the tins end up to take stern measures against getting rust which could end up people who do what Kgosi has being hazardous to people’s lives just explained. We should also and therefore they advocated for educate Batswana about decent ways through which they can the use of bottles because they consume their alcohol. Thank cannot become rusty. I therefore you. think that the best thing to focus

82 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Packaging of Beverages in Plastic or Tin Containers on in this case is to enforce kind of materials they can use the Law so as to prevent these to package their products, they practices. With those few reasons look into many issues. They Mr Chairman I do not support consider the safety and cost of the motion. that packaging material. They also consider how long their PROCEEDINGS products will remain preserved SUSPENDED FOR LUNCH in that type of packaging, whether the packaging will MR CHAIRMAN: Good appeal to the consumers and afternoon Honourable Members whether the material is suitable and the Minister. We shall for the product. As one Member continue from where we left has indicated, the fact is that off. When we adjourned for Botswana does not exist in lunch, Kgosi Lempadi had just isolation and therefore whatever concluded his deliberations. If decisions we intend to make have there is anybody else who still to be done through consultations wishes to debate they can indicate with our affiliates in the by raising their hand. It does not international arena. It would be appear like there is anybody who difficult to make such decisions wishes to debate, therefore we can without involving bodies like have the Minister’s response. the World Trade Organisation ASSISTANT MINISTER OF (WTO). Agreements have LOCAL GOVERNMENT already been made through (HON MOTOWANE): Thank that organisation including the you Mr Chairman, the mover packaging of products hence of the motion and those who the reason why we cannot make contributed to the debate. It that decision alone as a country. is true that the irresponsible It is possible to package any of behaviour of littering by people the drinks in plastic containers is on the rise. The expectation however it would have to be after was that by now we would be consultations with the WTO. acting responsibly when it comes to this issue however, as Kgosi One other issue Mr Chairman, Seeletso and other Members have is that the other beverages indicated, it is not the case. Mr that we are talking about are Chairman, one of the issues that not manufactured locally and I should clarify is that whenever they come in those forms of the business people consider the packaging and that places us at a 83 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Packaging of Beverages in Plastic or Tin Containers disadvantage. We cannot dictate so fond of should be disposed to those countries how to package off correctly. In conclusion, I their products. The issue that we should state that even though this should also not forget is that of is a good motion that cautions littering. Those broken bottles us against the bad practices that that are all over the road are are there, the only issue is that dangerous to people’s lives. They we have no control over what is also make the environment dirty manufactured in other countries. because they are not supposed However, we have to determine to be thrown everywhere as how we can manage the situation there are designated areas where brought about by them. Let us refuse should be discarded. We continue to work together in shall however not lose faith curbing these problems. Thank Mr Chairman, in educating you. people about disposing of litter responsibly as well as recycling. MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Some people are a bit sceptical Honourable Minister. when it comes to recycling, citing KGOSI SEELETSO (TONOTA health concerns, however all REGION): Thank you Mr those are considered when reusing Chairman and the Honourable or recycling. It is important to Minister for that response. He emphasise to our children that our mentioned that there should safety as a nation is in our hands be education regarding correct and therefore it is important disposal methods as well as the that when they are having fun fact that we are part of the World they should do it responsibly Trade Organisation (WTO) and and ensure that they dispose of therefore we should only do litter in an appropriate manner. what we agreed upon. I agree In other countries littering is not that education on issues should a big concern because there are be done even though I am not refuse bins in the streets where sure how we can carry it out people throw rubbish and it is but perhaps it could be through collected by those who recycle. It workshops or seminars. I am is our plan to have such services saying this because our children however it can only be possible have been educated about the if every one of us could try to bad effects of littering however keep the environment clean. We they still do it especially locally. shall continue to educate people You would not see them littering that these green bottles they are when they are in other countries.

84 Tuesday 19th June, 2012 Inclusion of Children of Unmarried Men Under Leave Travel Concession This shows lack of responsible Minister in this case. I shall see behaviour and patriotism on what can be done regarding this their part. This is irresponsible Ministry because the relevant because the tourists who come Minster is not in the country at to Botswana view it as a dirty the moment and he will only be country where litter is just thrown back next week. I shall relay the everywhere especially on our message that there should be a main roads. I am grateful for that representative to give responses detailed response and the other on his behalf so that there can be Members debated well on this progress. Thank you. motion and indicated that it is a good idea however it shall be not MR CHAIRMAN: Let us just possible because of the standards follow procedure and announce we have set with other countries. the motions instead of just Thank you Mr Chairman. assuming that they will be deferred. MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Kgosi Seeletso. Let us vote on KGOSI KAHIKO III (GANTSI the motion. WEST REGION): Thank you Mr Chairman. I am concerned Question put and negated. because I submitted this motion several times and the Minister INCLUSION OF CHILDREN was absent. I am surprised OF UNMARRIED MEN because whenever the Ministers UNDER LEAVE TRAVEL for the other Ministries are absent CONCESSION they can be represented by the others as we have just witnessed Motion with the previous motion. I am MR CHAIRMAN: Before we not sure how this Minister is proceed with this motion by going to work with us because all the business that has to do with Kgosi Kahiko, there were some his Ministry is always deferred. questions relevant to this Ministry Let us see how this situation can that were not answered. I do be rectified. I shall suspend the not think that there is anybody motion in the meantime. representing this Ministry. MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, H O N O U R A B L E Kgosi Kahiko. What do you MOTOWANE: Thank you Mr mean by suspension? Please use Chairman. Please pardon me the appropriate terms so that I can but I am not representing the be clear as to what you mean.

85 Wednesday 20th June, 2012 Chairman’s Remarks

KGOSI KAHIKO III: I will KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH wait for the time that the Minister EAST DISTRICT): Mr will be able to answer it. I will Chairman, I have a motion which defer it to the next meeting. has been deferred numerous times and I am about to give up MR CHAIRMAN: I needed on it. I do not want to assume the clarification on what you meant reasons why the Minister is not by suspending it but anyway the here to respond however this is motion has been deferred. a real problem. Anyway let us accept the situation and hope Motion –deferred that the Minister will eventually COMPUTERISED VOTERS’ come. Thank you. ROLL MR CHAIRMAN: Thank Motion you, Kgosi Masunga. I wanted us to conclude the business of KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH the day and not leave anything hanging. I would like to discuss EAST DISTRICT): Thank you tomorrow’s program with you Mr Chairman. The Minister is not before we disperse, so, wait for here and so there is no way we me after the adjournment. As you can continue with the motion. are aware the Cabinet meets on Wednesdays, therefore the House Motion-deferred sits at 2:30 pm.

ESTABLISHMENT OF AN ADJOURNMENT ELECTORAL TRIBUNAL The House accordingly adjourned Motion at 2.50 p.m. until Wednesday 20th June 2012 at 2.30 p.m. KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH EAST DISTRICT): It is for the Wednesday 20th June, 2012 same Ministry, therefore I defer it. THE HOUSE met at 2:30 p.m.

Motion-deferred (THE CHAIRMAN in the Chair) ESTABLISHMENT OF A FAMILY AFFAIRS P R A Y E R S MINISTRY * * * *

Motion CHAIRMAN’S REMARKS 86 Wednesday 20th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer

MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI MINISTER OF LABOUR PUSO GABORONE): Good AND HOME AFFAIRS (HON. afternoon Honourable Members BATSHU): Mr Chairman, and Honourable Ministers. We shall continue with the House (i) The inspection reports from business for this afternoon and the Ghanzi Commercial as usual, we shall start with Farms indicate that there is questions. a challenge on compliance to labour laws especially QUESTIONS FOR ORAL the payment of terminal ANSWER benefits. EXPLOITATION OF (ii) My Ministry, through the WORKERS BY FARMERS Department of Labour IN THE GHANZI REGION and Social Security, has been conducting labour KGOSI J. MOSEKI (GHANZI inspections and workshops EAST): asked the Minister of on labour laws to educate Labour and Home Affairs if he the farmers and their is aware; employees. During these (i) that farmers in the Ghanzi interactions, the inspectors region do not pay their observed that farm workers workers benefits due to are staying with their them at the end of their children in the farms. service; However, it has proven very difficult for Labour (ii) that Basarwa Children are Inspectors to ascertain exploited as farm labourers whether these children are contrary to the labour also employed or not. The legislation; situation will continue to (iii) that farmers do not provide be monitored to ensure that medical attention to the there is awareness on the workers which has led to provisions of the labour loss of lives in some cases; laws regarding employment of children. (iv) in view of this treatment by farmers, what measures will Mr Chairman, the the Minister put in place to Employment Act Cap 47:01 extend labour legislation prohibits employment of coverage to farm workers. children as per section 105

87 Wednesday 20th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer

(1) of the same Act; which Health Workers, Social provides thus; Workers as well as the District Commissioner “Subject to the other through the District provisions of this section, no Administration Structure child shall be employed in ensure that the welfare any capacity whatsoever.” of workers is catered It is against this backdrop for. Over and above that, that my Ministry, through Labour Laws continue to the International Labour be amended to incorporate Organisation Child Labour conditions that are geared Project, in collaboration towards promoting good with other stakeholders such industrial relations. as Human People to People Furthermore, the Ministry is and Cheetah Conservation planning to take the annual Botswana, have been world commemoration conducting workshops of Child Labour Day to to raise awareness on the Ghanzi in August 2012 to programme of action for the provide a platform through Elimination of the Worst which the community Forms of Child Labour to can be sensitized on child ensure that children who labour issues. I thank you, are found in employment Mr Chairman. are removed and placed in KGOSI KAHIKO III (GHANZI the school system. WEST): The Honourable (i) I am told that it is a practice Minister has highlighted that it that mobile clinics do has proven difficult to ascertain provide medical services whether these children are regularly in the farms and employed or not because they where there is need the stay with their parents in these patients are accordingly farms. My question is what can referred to the Ghanzi be done because they do not hospital or elsewhere. attend school? The other question is how do mobile clinics access (i) It is important to note that those farms which are locked stakeholders’ collaboration most of the time? in dealing with the farm workers is vital. Law HONOURABLE BATSHU: Enforcement Officers, Thank you Mr Chairman. The 88 Wednesday 20th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer crucial thing here is education. from both sides and obviously For Kgosi to ask a question of this the employers know very well kind while the Media is present is that it is against the law to employ not right as we are all leaders of minors, even if they do it without this nation. The most imperative our knowledge. What happens is, thing is to sensitise parents about parents to these children would the importance of education for be employed in the farm and the their children. We are faced with that problem so we all ought to children would not appear on the take the responsibility to correct farm’s pay roll. The payroll is the this anomaly. That is why we have one which can provide us with organised a workshop in Ghanzi evidence of where an individual to provide a platform through is employed and the amount they which the community and those are paid while they are under who lock their gates could be stipulated age of employment. So, sensitised about child labour. I basically the information is from believe the most important issue the employers and the parents. I here is education; therefore we thank you Mr Chairman. have to work together so that our children can have access to KGOSI MOSEKI: Thank you education and medical services. I Mr Chairman. I do understand thank you Mr Chairman. the Honourable Minister, but I am not satisfied with the KGOSI SEEMEKO response. I am requesting that (SPECIALLY ELECTED): this issue be seriously looked into Thank you Mr Chairman. to investigate if there is nothing The Honourable Minister has cynical happening to children or indicated that his Ministry has farm labourers. I thank you Mr observed that most parents stay Chairman. with their children in these farms, therefore it is difficult to tell if PERMANENT LAND these children are employed or BOARD MEMBERSHIP not. Were the officers informed by the parents that indeed those KGOSI K. BOIDITSWE children are theirs or they got the (SEROWE REGION): asked information from the employers? the Minister of Lands and I thank you. Housing;

HONOURABLE BATSHU: (i) if there is a permanent land This information was obtained board membership, if not;

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(ii) what criterion is used for for continuity and to tap on long term membership; experience. I thank you. and INTERGRATED BUILDING (iii) further, why is the period FOR THE DISABLED of membership staggered. KGOSI M. T. MASUNGA MINISTER OF LANDS (NORTH EAST DISTRICT): AND HOUSING (HON asked the Minister of MOKALAKE): Mr Chairman, Infrastructure, Science and Technology to explain to this i) There is no provision for Honourable House:- appointment of Land Board Members on permanent or i) what integrated building long terms basis. system the Ministry has put in place to cater for the The Tribal Land disabled; and (Subordinate Land Boards) (Amendment) ii) to state what the position of Regulations 2011 provides Botswana Council for the for appointment of Land Disabled is since they had Board Members for a term an input on this matter. of three (3) years, and that they are eligible for re- ACTING MINISTER OF appointment. I N F R A S T R U C T U R E , SCIENCE AND ii) Mr Chairman, the period of TECHNOLOGY (HON Land Board Membership MOLEFHI): Mr Chairman, is no longer staggered. It will be noted that prior i) Firstly, the existing to 2011, the appointment Building Controls of Land Board Members Regulations (published on was staggered such that the 13th February, 1981) those elected from the are the building system Kgotla were appointed for instruments in place to cater a period of 4 years while for the disabled. However, the Minister’s appointees it is only an advisory held office for three (3) document that is far too years. The term was still inadequate to deal with renewable. The staggering the requirements for the of terms was to provide disabled, hence the current 90 Wednesday 20th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer

revision to improve it and all public buildings must make it mandatory. The be evaluated to ensure they revised Building Control meet all requirements for Regulations are currently people with disability, e.g. being drafted by Attorney parking, ramps, lifts or General’s Chambers. The elevators, toilets etc. Thank draft will then be circulated you Chairman. in Government after which it will be presented to MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you Cabinet. Honourable Minister ii) Secondly, all design KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank professionals have both you Mr Chairman. I am grateful professional and moral that the Honourable Minister obligation to cater for the has highlighted that there is a disabled. Design Audit Bill being drafted as we speak. I Teams established in the thank you. Ministry are another level of REVIEW OF IMPREST verification for compliance REGULATIONS to design requirements for the disabled. KGOSI K. BOIDITSWE (SEROWE REGION): asked iii) Thirdly, catering for the the Minister of Finance and disabled in the existing Development Planning if he buildings will be a slow will consider reviewing Imprest gradual process which regulations to allow for a fixed will address requirements meal allowance that can allow for each building as and for flexibility to people who when they are refurbished. for health reasons, need to eat As my Ministry carries out between meals. condition survey on various facilities, they will also be MINISTER OF FINANCEAND assessed for the provision DEVELOPMENT PLANNING of amenities for disabled. (HON MATAMBO): Thank The Botswana Council for you Mr Chairman. There is Disabled position is that currently no plan to review the all public buildings must imprest regulations. However, be accessible to all people under the current policy, when with disability. In the light an officer undertakes an official of this position therefore, trip and intends to stay in a hotel, 91 Wednesday 20th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer they submit a quotation which question again, it reads … “the covers three meals a day. They Minister to consider reviewing will then be given an amount imprest regulations,” so I was equivalent to the quotation and saying there is currently no plan has the flexibility of deciding to review these regulations. I when to have meals to best suit further stated that even though their needs. There is also a meal they have not been reviewed, the allowance which is given to an current policy provides for an officer who will be out of his individual to be given a certain duty station for a minimum of amount at their duty station. six hours but does not spend the It could be in the form of cash night away from the duty station. which allows the flexibility In this case, the officer has an of buying something for the element of flexibility as he can road before one arrives at their have a meal anytime within the destination. If a time comes for six hour period. I thank you Mr the regulations to be reviewed, Chairman. the point that has been raised by the Honourable Member shall KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank also be considered. I thank you. you Mr Chairman. Seeing that people have various ailments KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: I these days, can we not cater wanted to make a follow up on for their needs? A person on the issue of assistance accorded an official trip to Maun via to people on special diet. The Serowe, may decide to have Honourable Minister pointed their breakfast in Gaborone. If out that there is a provision of that person arrives in Serowe at imprest in the form of cash, but I 11, will they be allowed to buy want to know whether there is a a meal for the road between provision to cater for such people breakfast and lunch since there to be able to purchase the special would be no shops all the way to meal even if it costs more than Maun? Sometimes they may be the normal meal. I am not sure if forced to take medication before I am clear. lunch but they cannot take the medication without food. HONOURABLE MATAMBO: Thank you Mr Chairman. I HONOURABLE MATAMBO: may not be able to respond to Thank you Mr Chairman. I the question referring to the understood the question very provision for special diet. I will well, but maybe I should read the talk to the Minister of Health to

92 Wednesday 20th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer find out how such a person can Minister, we shall hold onto your be assisted. What we are focused word. I thank you. on under the Ministry of Finance is to assist public service officers DECENTRALISATION OF to get from point A to B in terms DIALYSIS PROCEDURE TO of finances so that they can be FRANCISTOWN able to buy food. I thank you Mr KGOSI M. T. MASUNGA: Chairman. Asked the Minister of Health to KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank state:- you Mr Chairman. My last i) why dialysis procedure question, is the Honourable is not decentralised to Minister aware that if it happens Francistown; that an officer spends this money to buy food between breakfast ii) how much money was used and lunch, it is classified as to set up the Tati River unprocedural. As a result, the Clinic dialysis facility; and officer would be expected to return the money for such a iii) how many patients to date purchase. If the Honourable have been referred to South Minister is not aware, will he African medical hospitals. investigate that issue? I thank ASSISTANT MINISTER you Mr Chairman. OF HEALTH (HON HONOURABLE MATAMBO: MATLHABAPHIRI): Thank Thank you Mr Chairman. I am you Mr Chairman. The Haemo- not sure if what Kgosi has just dialysis services are currently said is the case. What happens offered in Princess Marina is that an officer is given money Hospital only, where the according to the quotation they Government has gone into a have given. If it happens that an Public Private Partnership (PPP) officer spends their own money, arrangement with Dr Saleshando, when they return from the trip, the only qualified Nephrologist they are supposed to give the in the country. It is not possible accounting officer all the receipts to extend the services to as proof so that they can be Francistown at the moment due to refunded. financial constraints. The process would require identification or KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank construction of suitable clinical you Mr Chairman and Honourable space, procurement of equipment

93 Wednesday 20th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer and training of personnel such not be extended to a private that if the services were set practitioner who already has that up there will be trained and facility looking at the fact that competent personnel to look there is an existing Public Private after the patients and follow the Partnership? treatment plans. H O N O U R A B L E Haemodialysis cannot be initiated MATLHABAPHIRI: Thank by Physician or specialist except you Mr Chairman. As I have a Nephrologist and it is the same already stated, we only have one specialist who has to monitor the Nephrologist in the country. He patient’s progress when the patient is also engaged in Francistown at is admitted in the Renal Unit or is the clinic that Kgosi has just talked being dialysed as an outpatient. about. We engaged him from his However, the Ministry continues own clinic as Government. As for to engage partners in provision the statistics of the patients, I do of haemodialysis services to not have them right now; maybe Francistown region and Tati if Kgosi could have given me River Hospital is one of those. some time, I could have looked Tati River Clinic dialysis facility for them. If the doctor is in this is a private facility. The cost of side, in Gaborone and there are the facility is only known to the patients in Nyangabwe who need proprietors. The Government his attention, the hospital makes of Botswana stopped sending an arrangement of referring patients with kidney failure to such patients to this side. If it South Africa for dialysis since is a referred patient who cannot the establishment of a Public manage to transport themselves to Private Partnership (PPP) on the this side, the hospital also makes 23rd of December 2009. Since the renal care facility is owned by a arrangements. If it happens that local, the last patient to be sent to the doctor is in Francistown South Africa was in June 2009. I engaged by a private clinic, thank you Mr Chairman. patients can be referred to that clinic by Nyangabwe. That is KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank you the arrangement that we have. I Mr Chairman. Currently, what is thank you Mr Chairman. the total number of patients who commute from the North to the KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank you South? If there are patients who Mr Chairman and Honourable commute, why can the service Minister. 94 Wednesday 20th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer

ESTABLISHMENT OF A KGOSI BOIDITSWE: POST OFFICE Thank you Mr Chairman and Honourable Minister. I am not KGOSI K. BOIDITSWE sure of the factors that are taken (SEROWE REGION): asked into consideration in determining the Minister of Transport and the establishment of a Post Office Communications to state:- in a village. The Honourable i) what population qualifies Minister has given us statistics establishment of a Post but I wanted to know how often a Office at a village in view of survey is conducted to determine the fact that the Post Office the qualification. I thank you. has expanded its operations to cover services such as HONOURABLE MOLEFHI: old age pension, Ipelegeng Surveys are conducted at any allowances et cetera, which time in our considerations for are provided at both large increasing Post Offices. Any and small villages; and community which feels there is ii) how often Botswana need for a Post Office in their Post carries out surveys village may write a letter to the to determine if a village Chief Executive Officer of Post requires a Post Office. Offices. He will in turn, delegate officers to conduct a survey on MINISTER OF TRANSPORT the need for such. If the findings AND COMMUNICATIONS indeed verify the need for a Post (HON MOLEFHI): Thank you Office to be built looking at the Mr Chairman. The establishment of a Post Office at a village is utilisation of services or if the determined by many factors such village will be able to maintain as population size, main drivers the Post Office, then there will of the village economy and the be no hindrance in establishing demand for products and services. it. I thank you. My Ministry continuously reviews the needs of communities KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank to determine requirements for you Honourable Minister. additional facilities. On the basis MERGING OF BOTSWANA of identified needs, additional TECHNOLOGY CENTER facilities may be provided if AND RURAL INDUSTRIES resources permit. I thank you. PROMOTIONS COMPANY

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KGOSI B. RAMOKONE training, provision of other (KANYE REGION): asked services will have to be relocated the Minister of Infrastructure, either to other departments and/ Science and Technology what or organizations of Government effect the merging of Botswana or privatized. The decision to Technology Centre and Rural that effect still has to be made. Industries Promotions Company Thank you Mr Chairman. will have on Rural Industries KGOSI RAMOKONE: I do Innovation Centre in terms of appreciate what the Honourable structure, machinery, equipment Minister has said, however, is and staffing. he aware that RIPCO or RIIC has inherited some assets from ACTING MINISTER OF Southern Rural Development I N F R A S T R U C T U R E , Association (SRDA), of which SCIENCE AND some of them are now under TECHNOLOGY (HON private ownership, like, Moshana MOLEFHI): The intention of Quarry? So my concern is will the merger between Botswana the same not happen with RIIC Technology Center (BOTEC) looking at the fact that it has and Rural Industries Promotions many properties which belong to Botswana (RIPCO) is to the community and they will be remove duplication of efforts left with nothing in spite of the between legacy organizations fact that they were not consulted. by constituting one well focused Secondly, out of the two merging research institution with a critical companies, how many employees mass of researchers in applied will be absorbed? I thank you. research and technology transfer. That will ensure continuity HONOURABLE MOLEFHI: between research and application As I have already pointed out, and better alignment of service the assets will be sorted out delivery through coordinated and handed over to the owners. and harmonized use of resources The remaining assets; which and facilities. The merger is will not be claimed by anyone anticipated to affect the operations nor used in the new company, of Rural Industries Innovation shall be distributed to different Center (RIIC) as an operational Government Departments or sold arm of RIPCO (with no legal through auction. As we speak, the status) because all non core absorption of officers has not yet activities such as manufacturing, been finalised and negotiations 96 Wednesday 20th June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer are still ongoing to determine who Resource Development Strategy, remains and who gets retrenched. the Ministry of Education, Skills The workers’ union, RIPCO and and Development has currently the mediator are yet to finalise halted the taking over of brigades the retrenchment packages and from communities because they compensation. I thank you. first want to establish curriculum coverage for brigades, Vocational KGOSI MASUNGA: Training Centres, Poly-Technic Honourable Minister, can we and private institutions. From kindly correlate these two there, their syllabus will be policies, we have BIUST whose tailored in such a way that skills mandate is purely different from needed in the Human Resource that of University of Botswana. Development Strategy will Then we have Innovation Hub be acquired. Furthermore, the which is also coming up and I Ministry of Education, Skills believe they have already hired and Development will, under the its CEO. Now, we have Botswana guidance of the research done, Technology Center which is establish what the curriculum will just about to merge with RIIC cover in technical schools and in Kanye. Botswana National brigades. The Human Resource Human Resources (HRMC) is Development Strategy is the one mainly focused on the transfer which will guide the development of skills from 2009 to maybe of skills. The curriculum for 2031. Sometime back they used the Botswana International to talk about education with University for Science and production, so if we focus more Technology (BIUST) will also on research, then what are we be under the regulation of the saying about the transfer of skills Human Resource Development into the market because already Strategy which will target the brigades have been phased out. scarce skills in the market. When The Honourable Minister has this university opens, it will focus mentioned universities like on higher level of science and BIUST whose mandate is purely technology education which will academic and scientific approach, be different from those offered what is going to happen now? I at the University of Botswana. thank you Mr Chairman. The other research conducted at HONOURABLE MOLEFHI: BIUST is mainly to investigate if Thank you Mr Chairman. When it will be advantageous to offer we look at the policy of Human Masters Degree. 97 Wednesday 20th June, 2012 Endorsing Blood Groups on Birth Certificates

When we look at the merging into artisan training through the of BOTEC, RIIC and RIPCO, research that was done by the they are mainly focused on Ministry of Education. They applied research but this will be went across all the sectors to expanded because it falls under find out the skills which are in the Ministry of Infrastructure, demand. So the curriculum will Science and Technology. So, be fashioned in such a way that it the Science and Technology will cater for such scarce skills. research will be led by the new For instance, we will look into merger of BOTEC, RIPCO and the number of artisans that are RIIC and its focal point will be needed like boiler makers. That applied research, which is more way, it will be easy to identify the profitable. The Innovation Hub specific schools for such skills. I will be dealing with innovative thank you. ideas proposed by individuals and they assist people with scarce KGOSI RAMOKONE: skills to turn ideas into tangible Thank you Mr Chairman and objects. For instance, if I have an Honourable Minister. idea that the Kgalagadi sand can be used to make bottles, I take ENDORSING BLOOD that idea to the Innovation hub. GROUPS ON BIRTH So, that is basically how these CERTIFICATES institutions will operate. I thank you Mr Chairman and pardon me Motion for taking such a long time. KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH MR CHAIRMAN: I was starting EAST DISTRICT): Thank you to wonder if you are now standing Mr Chairman. I stand before this in for the Minister of Education. Honourable House to present Nevertheless we appreciate that this motion which reads, “That clarification. this Honourable House requests Government to make it mandatory KGOSI RAMOKWENA: Will for every newborn baby’s blood the artisanship at a lower level group to be endorsed in their birth not be grossly affected by this certificates, for convenience in new development? the event of medical attention.” Mr Chairman, this motion is HONOURABLE MOLEFHI: at par with the modern times. Mr Chairman, as I have already Honourable Members, please stated, more focus will be put note that this issue has nothing to 98 Wednesday 20th June, 2012 Endorsing Blood Groups on Birth Certificates do with paternity. It is basically one occasion while we were in focused on identifying the blood preparation for Botswana Games, groups of people and I think that I had to encourage young people is the unique element for each who were participating in those and every individual. There is games to donate blood so that Blood Group A, B, AB and O. the hospitals can be assisted. Mr Mr Chairman, there are several Chairman, the other reason for reasons that prompted me to tabling this motion is for purposes table this motion. Expectant of those who undergo surgery. mothers are sometimes subjected We are very much aware that to caesarean operation and some some patients undergo kidney tests have to be done before or heart transplants and these delivery to see if it is safe to do so. are things that are more related Firstly, it might happen that the to blood transfusion. My main findings reveal that the mother is focus is on newly born babies, as suffering from anaemia, I am not soon as they are born, their blood sure if it is also called low blood. groups should be incorporated in It is crucial to establish if there their birth certificates. We have is blood available which matches just been informed that hospitals the blood group of the mother like Bokamoso and four or five in case they lose a lot of blood of others now register a baby for during birth. In this manner, the birth certificates as soon as there will be no inconvenience they are born. This is one of the experienced because in most pertinent issues that have really cases Mr Chairman, mothers lose upgraded and enhanced service delivery because now every baby their lives on the operation table can leave the hospital with their because of issues like these. own birth certificates. I want to Honourable Members will believe that the technology that recall that our Blood Bank they are using at the hospital has been complaining of low is Soon As Possible (SAP) blood donations. I have worked which links all the Government with the National Blood systems. When they register the Bank in Northern Region, in baby, she/he can instantly be Francistown, and on yearly basis enlisted in Government system. they kept on complaining about Mr Chairman, I believe it is shortage of blood. The public advantageous for us to register is slow in donating blood while our children because it can be there is shortage in hospitals. On used to trace family trees and 99 Wednesday 20th June, 2012 Endorsing Blood Groups on Birth Certificates know how one’s genealogy with the world’s standards. I unfolds. Furthermore, it can help have with me an article from with issues of diet, that is, the type the United States, it was an act of food one is supposed to eat which started as a Bill. I will depending on their blood group. read for the interest of this House Every end of year, car accidents through you Mr Chairman. It are rampant and usually there was published in 2000. It reads, is a plea to the nation to donate “a Bill for an act requiring the blood. Nevertheless, before this blood type of a newborn baby blood is used, it is screened and for the purpose of inclusion of most of it does not qualify to blood type, information on the be used because of infections newborn’s birth, certificate and or diseases. Some of it will be providing an effective date, be it disqualified because it does not enacted by the General Assembly match the patient’s blood group. of the State of Iowa.” Sometimes it takes long for doctors to do tests to identify the Honourable Members will realise blood group of a patient, which that these are things that can can be an inconvenience. So advance the medical profession these are some of the things that and make it more convenient. can cut off some stages to have When looking at the medical a timely service where needed profession in Botswana, you will and help advance the medical realise that the ratio of a patient profession. to a doctor or a nurse is huge. We are trying to reduce the work As I have already pointed out, load for doctors so that they are this motion has got nothing to do not overwhelmed by a lot of with paternity issues. There will things. That will help to bring a portion in the card which will an effective service delivery. In reflect one’s blood group and it addition, I believe that there are might not match anyone’s in the diseases that are hereditary and if family but that should not raise blood groups are known, it will an eyebrow. I cannot really tell be much easier for doctors to how it relates to one’s paternity. identify the cause of that disease I believe that the Honourable by looking at the genealogy of Minister will advise us because that family. Birth certificates will our intention is not to steer up be some sort of a data bank which conflicts in families, but just will contain all the information to bring our procedures at par about an individual, that is, their

100 Wednesday 20th June, 2012 Endorsing Blood Groups on Birth Certificates names, place of birth, names of they do not have any relative and parents and so on just the way it that birth certificate has all the is done at Omang. Honourable necessary information like the Members, what I am advocating blood group, it will be easier to for will not be applicable to us do a blood transfusion if need who are already alive, but rather arises. to babies that are yet to be born and after passing this motion if With those reasons Mr Chairman, this House agrees to it. I was motivated to table this motion. I too am a father of two With all the reasons I have children and I would be very already pointed out before this much interested in knowing their Honourable House, I think I have blood groups. In fact, when their done this motion some justice. mother gave birth, I was there I strongly believe this will fully prepared to donate blood in improve the medical profession case of low blood and fortunately, in Botswana. I believe this will there was no need. So, I have be a facelift for the health sector. come to realise that some of There is a new technology used these things can pose danger to by the Ministry of water, called the nation and one never knows telemetry, whereby results in a what tomorrow holds. The particular station can be obtained blood transfusion department in another station. I do not know in Francistown once shared a what they call it at the Ministry story with us that there was a of Health. I think it has been certain man who ran a company, two years now since the health name withheld. The department sector engaged in that kind of approached this company with a technology. I present this motion proposal to sensitize employees before this Honourable House so about donating blood and he that we may look into it and see bluntly refused. Mr Chairman, I if this will not be beneficial to the am talking about a living story child’s welfare and the nation at which has been told from an large. Nowadays Batswana are official position and has been highly mobile, they visit various documented. One day this man countries, take for example, took a trip to Francistown, when when athletes travel, the first he reached Serule, there was an thing that is needed is the birth accident, he never bothered to certificate. However, if they are stop as he was in a hurry. When to go to those countries where he reached Francistown, he tried

101 Wednesday 20th June, 2012 Endorsing Blood Groups on Birth Certificates to contact the person he was KGOSI BOIDITSWE looking for and unfortunately (SEROWE REGION): Thank the phone was answered by you Mr Chairman. I have been a stranger who informed him listening to Kgosi Masunga’s that the owner was involved in motion which advocates for a car accident that he passed in endorsement of blood groups Serule and they needed blood on birth certificates. These are transfusion. Unfortunately, that some of the developments that person passed on and you will are crucial in this era that we remember that this is the very are living in because there are same man who turned down the a lot of changes that are taking sensitisation on blood transfusion. place. I support this motion. This is a living story. That is Indeed blood groups should be why I emphasise that issues like included on birth certificates as these should be treated with an identity. This will show their the highest level of seriousness identity and parentage because because one way or the other, we blood is life. When Omang and will be affected, we do not know what tomorrow holds for us. You birth certificates were started, we might need the assistance as an did not think of blood groups as emergency, then be forced to go part of a person’s identity. through the process of searching for matching blood type because This is a very good motion which the hospital might not be having in my view is at par with the it by that time and that can claim world’s standards and it will even a life. With that Mr Chairman, I be advantageous to our children thank you. who travel abroad. In cases MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI where their blood groups are PUSO GABORONE): Thank needed, it will be much easier to you Kgosi Masunga. Honourable access that information on their Members, Kgosi Masunga birth certificates. As a developing has presented his motion of country, we might end up being Endorsing Blood Groups on the only ones who are a step Birth Certificates. I believe ahead of other countries if this we have all been listening motion passes. Mr Chairman, attentively; the floor is now open. The second issue was just I support this motion because I cited as an example; therefore it believe it can be used as one of should not be the focal point of the identity tools for children. I our discussion. thank you Mr Chairman.

102 Wednesday 20th June, 2012 Endorsing Blood Groups on Birth Certificates

KGOSI KAHIKO III to know their blood groups and (GHANZI WEST REGION): help them on time. However, Thank you Mr Chairman. I would some elderly people do not have like to comment on the motion birth certificates because they tabled. Honourable Members were not born in the hospitals, we are all aware that change is therefore Omang can be used a good development, however, instead of birth certificates. We there are some advantages should not focus on children and disadvantages. This is a only. Most Batswana always good motion but on the other carry their identity cards with hand families are going to be them when travelling. broken due to some Batswana’s I heard the other day on the radio ignorance. These are some of that there is shortage of blood the things that we should expect across the country not just in in the near future. The fact that Francistown. So, if it happens there is a possibility of having that I need a blood transfusion different blood groups in the but the blood bank is empty, my same family can raise an eye relatives would know the best brow to some fathers. This is way to help because they would a development which we can already know my blood group. embrace but some will never get The way things are developing, to appreciate it. That is all that I if the shortage is acute, we will wanted to say and I have mixed end up donating for those close feelings about this motion. I to us. I am not derailing from the thank you Mr Chairman. focus of the motion, but maybe we should be included too so that KGOSI MACHILIDZA we can be assisted effectively as (BOTETI REGION): Thank well. If one is travelling outside you Mr Chairman. I would also the country, it will be much easier like to comment on the motion to get help in cases of emergency which has been tabled by Kgosi if the blood group is incorporated Masunga Maruje III. This is in passports. With that, I support one development that needs this motion. I thank you Mr serious consideration because Chairman. we are faced with challenges like car accidents and diseases KGOSI RAMOKWENA like anaemia. In cases of car (MAUN REGION): Thank you accidents where people have lost Mr Chairman. I would like to a lot of blood, it will be easier commend Kgosi Masunga for

103 Wednesday 20th June, 2012 Endorsing Blood Groups on Birth Certificates tabling such a motion. I verify will just be blood group on the the reasons that he has brought birth certificate. Mr Chairman, I up to support his motion. I will support this motion. I thank you. briefly touch on one issue that he mentioned. Indeed knowing KGOSI MOETI II one’s blood group helps in issues (SPECIALLY ELECTED): of diet. I was diagnosed with I thank you Mr Chairman this disease that is normally and a good afternoon to the associated with the rich, high Honourable Minister. We might blood pressure since I am not not really understand it but we rich, I was surprised. I was are reaching a point where we fond of eating chicken with the will have to embrace the advent impression that it was good for of information era. Just recently, my health, little did I know that we had a briefing with the it was my worst enemy until Omang office and they touched I did some blood tests which on some of the positive issues confirmed the type of food I that will help sail this motion should eat. This greatly helped smoothly. They said they will because I have even stopped soon be computerising Omang taking the prescription pills. The and birth certificates. I take it that side effects were too much for me birth certificate and Omang are more so that I kept on forgetting the same; the only difference is when to take them. Now I can that the other one is for children manage that blood pressure with and the other for elderly people. a variety of the right food. Mr Kgosi Machilidza has pointed Chairman, I support this motion out that that kind of information because it can really help us in should be included in our identity a lot of things. I do not wish to cards, Omang. There will be a repeat some of the things that chip which will be computer have been said because they readable which means all the are true. In conclusion, I do not personal information about the want to believe this motion has holder will be included there. the potential of breaking families Maybe the information included because I too have people who will not only be about blood fall on the same blood group with groups, but it will also include me but they are not in any way the health history of the holder related to me. There is no how which will systematically be this issue is related to the issues centralised across all the hospitals of paternity testing because it in the country so that in cases of

104 Wednesday 20th June, 2012 Endorsing Blood Groups on Birth Certificates emergencies, then doctors will be We have so many things in our able to swipe the Omang to obtain country that we wish to have information of the patient. Those but cannot afford them at the with heart problems, this is the time that we want them. As we kind of information which will be are all aware, we are still to face gathered about an individual and lift the health sector and even included in Omang. This motion its staff. If you can take a closer is simple because it is driving us look at our health posts, clinics towards the direction in which we and hospitals, you will find that are headed. I would like to touch most of the work in pharmacies a bit on the issue of breaking is executed by nurses because we families. Deoxyribonucleic do not have adequate Pharmacy Acid (DNA) test is the one that and Laboratory Technicians. shows the biological parents of a The few specialists that we have child not blood group. It is very are confined to monitoring the possible for family members to patients. If this motion is to be have different blood groups but passed as a law, then it will require to confirm if they are related that us to have all the necessary is when DNA is used. Blood resources to do it. As Kgosi has group does not pose any threat to indicated, there will be a need for the unity of families, so I support us to have laboratory technicians this motion. In other countries, on full time basis who will take there is a card that contains blood samples from newly born all the information about the babies to conduct those tests so individual’s health, so if we that there are no delays. could have ours in Omang and birth certificates, it will simplify If we kick start this, there will health procedures. I thank you be no difference because it will still take a longer time to take Mr Chairman. blood tests immediately after MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you birth as the staff will be busy Kgosi Moeti. attending to other patients with various ailments which have just ASSISTANT MINISTER been mentioned by Honourable OF HEALTH (HON. Members like sugar diabetes, MATLHABAPHIRI): Thank high blood pressure, just to you Mr Chairman, Honourable mention a few. So, we are going Members and the mover of to have shortage of personnel the motion, Kgosi Masunga. to do that because it can only

105 Wednesday 20th June, 2012 Endorsing Blood Groups on Birth Certificates be done after the tests have blood group. That should not be been conducted. Otherwise we done as a law because then we will always have that backlog shall be committing ourselves which we could always avoid as Government that it shall be by just having patients test for done whenever a new baby their blood groups as they go for is born while we do not have their normal check up visits at enough resources. Mr Chairman, the hospital. Even babies could as Kgosi has already mentioned always have their tests done as the use of telemedicine, health they go for their monthly visits services are ofcourse going to the clinic. Furthermore, it is through some developments. not like people always carry birth We have now come to a point certificates around. Most people where specialists in Marina can prefer leaving them at home in prescribe to another doctor at a safer place so that they do not Ghanzi about a specific ailment lose them. This means even if the through this technology. Last blood group is included, when weekend there were specialists an emergency arises, it will not in Marina conducting an Open be helpful as the birth certificate Heart Surgery. Those specialists will be at home. This is because have managed to attend about six people do not carry it around like patients. Omang. As I have already stated Mr Chairman, anyone can, during The other point is that, even if their spare time, visit the nearest the blood groups are similar, clinic and do blood tests to know when a transfusion is done, their blood groups. With this so many factors are taken into done, it does not mean that even consideration. For instance, the when an accident occurs there proteins in the blood are assessed will not be any tests done, the so that it might not cause any doctors will still do those blood complications to the patient tests. because of unmatching proteins. With the current set up, which The other thing is that we are not I think is simpler, it is better to only faced with the challenge of take tests when need arises, if it shortage of manpower, there is is an emergency, then it shall be. also lack of resources, that is, the Otherwise people could always laboratory equipment which can go to the hospital in their spare be used immediately after birth to time to take tests to find out their conduct those tests. Nowadays we 106 Wednesday 20th June, 2012 Endorsing Blood Groups on Birth Certificates have clinics that have maternity blood groups together with wards almost everywhere in the their children and they can also country, however, some clinics tell others because it will be do have maternity wards but written on their cards. The main with no Laboratory Technicians. challenge in our department as Even though this is a very good of now is that we might start motion, my question now is, something that we can never be are we in a state to do that now able to execute then in the long because Kgosi has indicated that run there will be a backlog of this should be mandatory. I am children without blood group a bit worried about that because results and we will be forced to we cannot oblige ourselves to do do it as it will be constitutional. something which we know very The current set up is ideal. well that we cannot afford. I will With that Mr Chairman, I will request the mover of the motion humbly request that this motion to let the status quo remain. be negated due to the reasons that I have already outlined. Any individual or parent who We will consider it in future if wants to know the blood groups resources are available because it of their children could do so. is something that is crucial as he They should be given a card has already pointed out. I thank that indicates their blood group you Mr Chairman. or it could be indicated in their MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you medical cards. Now, will it be Honourable Minister. Kgosi necessary to have it in birth Masunga, we are only left certificates when it can always be with three minutes which I am incorporated on medical cards? supposed to share with you, so If it is in a small card, one could may you quickly wind up your always put it in their wallets motion. so that in cases where one is involved in a car accident, when KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH their particulars are investigated, EAST DISTRICT): Mr that card will be there too. The Chairman, I heard the Honourable birth certificate is a bit bigger, so Minister very well. I take it that if they were to be computerised, when a motion is tabled, it is not it means people will be required calling for an instant decision. It to carry them around as Kgosi has to go through long processes. has already indicated. Better I do concur with the reasons still, individuals can know their that have been laid down by 107 Thursday 21 June, 2012 Chairman’s Opening Remarks the Honourable Minister, they MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you are rational but when it comes Kgosi Masunga. Honourable to the practical part of it, I take Members as many as are of the it that there are many ways of opinion say ‘aye,’ on the contrary doing this. One possible way is say ‘no.’ to devise a law which will give a parent the responsibility to Question put and agreed to. take those blood tests just as is MR CHAIRMAN: That is the the case with Omang. Parents end of today’s business; we shall are responsible for applying for start tomorrow at 9.30 in the Omang for their children. That morning. Honourable Members, responsibility will not only entail please remain behind briefly so the time the baby is born but that we can conclude the issue where possible, the hospital can that we discussed this morning. perform those tests and include I believe I will not take too much them on birth certificate. After of your time, I will be back all, the entire medical field is shortly. Thank you. going private and I believe that over the years, the Public Private ADJOURNMENT Partnerships (PPPs), and private institutions will be dominant in The House accordingly adjourned terms of medical health because at 4.00 p.m. until Thursday 21st of the level of expenditure June 2012 at 9.30 a.m. in maintaining Government hospitals. It is a matter of efficient Thursday 21 June, 2012 management of resources in an institution. Even the way THE HOUSE met at 0930 a.m. Government provides services (THE CHAIRPERSON in the is a matter to be planned for. Mr Chair) Chairman, I take it that this is the time for such developments to be P R A Y E R S done. I understand the challenges that are faced by the Medical * * * * field; however, Government is retrenching employees through CHAIRMAN’S OPENING voluntary and involuntary exit. REMARKS These are the things that we are faced with but it is just a matter MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI of how you handle them. I thank GABORONE): Good morning you Mr Chairman. Honourable Members. I had 108 Thursday 21 June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer assumed that before we meet this only shareholder at the time of morning you would have given the establishment of the Society. me what we agreed on yesterday. However, over the years the The money that has been Government has been gradually collected will be used for what we selling some of its shares to the talked about yesterday. Having public. Consequently, it is no said that, I welcome you to this longer a majority shareholder House and I extend my greetings and cannot, on its own, influence to the Honourable Ministers and the decisions of the Society. This the Officers accompanying them not withstanding Mr Chairman, this morning. We shall now begin I am pleased to indicate that today’s program and it appears the Botswana Building Society like today we shall be dealing is currently conducting a study with questions only. to investigate the feasibility of opening a branch in Palapye. QUESTIONS FOR ORAL This is in light of the growing ANSWER and the loyal support the Building Society is receiving OPENING A BOTSWANA from its clientele in Palapye and BUILDING SOCIETY the surrounding areas through BRANCH IN PALAPYE the Serowe branch. The decision KGOSI K. BOIDITSWE: on when the Palapye branch may asked the Minister of Finance be established is subject to the and Development Planning outcome of both the study as if he will consider opening a well as the resource availability Botswana Building Society obtaining at the Society. I thank branch in Palapye since small you Mr Chairman. and medium size enterprises and KGOSI MACHILIDZA: farmers usually use its services. Thank you Mr Chairman. I MINISTER OF FINANCEAND appreciate what the Minister has DEVELOPMENT PLANNING just said however, I have qualms (HON MATAMBO): Thank you with the implication that as the Mr Chairman. The ownership Government, they do not have of Botswana Building Society any influence over the BBS. Does (BBS) is vested in its shareholders he mean that there is absolutely and members who are generally nothing they can do in order to members of the public, through bring this issue to the attention their subscription shares. The of the Society? Will there be Government of Botswana was the anything wrong in doing that? 109 Thursday 21 June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer

HONOURABLE MATAMBO: than litter picking as it was the Thank you Mr Chairman. I do not case before; and further state if see anything wrong in suggesting he will increase Ipelegeng intake the idea to the Society for as well as the period of service. consideration. What I was saying is that the decisions of the Society MINISTER OF LOCAL are made by the shareholders and GOVERNMENT (HON the members; the Government is SIELE): Thank you very the minority shareholder in this much Mr Chairman. Ipelegeng case. This therefore means that Programme, which is a Labour the Government alone cannot Intensive Programme, is direct what should be done and currently focused on activities what should not be done. I am which include litter picking. The however not suggesting that intention is to ensure that more we cannot make any effort as money goes to beneficiaries Government, to suggest what rather than procurement of Kgosi is proposing. We intend to materials. However, for the do that. Thank you. financial year 2012/2013, my Ministry has allocated 100 KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Thank million for the procurement of you Mr Chairman. We hope it materials for construction of shall happen because people small projects countrywide. come from as far as Tamasane These projects include extension for services of the BBS Bank in and construction of staff houses; Serowe. They believe that the guard houses, drift fences, school Bank has got services suitable boundary walls, culverts and for them, more especially the low others. That notwithstanding, income earners. If it can be done the programme was recently we would really appreciate it. reviewed to determine its CONSTRUCTION relevance, efficiency and PROJECTS UNDER effectiveness. While the study IPELEGENG PROGRAMME recommendations are still to be considered by Government, KGOSI K. LEMPADI the study has established that (OKAVANGO REGION): asked Ipelegeng programme is a very the Minister of Local Government good initiative that has assisted if he will consider giving priority people in improving their welfare to construction projects under and giving them dignity. Mr Ipelegeng Programme rather Chairman, in the current financial

110 Thursday 21 June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer year, my Ministry has increased programme. If you consider that the monthly targeted number there are 55 000 employees in of beneficiaries from 50 000 to this programme, you will realize 55 000, which emphasizes on that it is really helpful as at the the Remote Area Communities end of the month each person and will continue to review this goes home with P400 which number provided the country’s they can feed their families with. economic situation improves. Thank you Mr Chairman. Thank you Mr Chairman. KGOSI LEMPADI: I KGOSI LEMPADI: Thank you understand the Minister however, Mr Chairman. I understand the I have got some reservations Minister’s response but I would because I feel that somehow this like to point out that public funds might be a way of encouraging are being used for this programme laziness. Nowadays you find that and they should be accounted the workers would just perform for. The Village Development a menial task like sweeping the Committee (VDC) projects in roads and within an hour they conjunction with Ipelegeng when would be done and seated. At the they were building, houses and end of the month they are paid offices were good. I think it would with public funds. This is why I be better if the money could be was suggesting that they should used on tangible projects, does be engaged in other projects in the Minister not agree? the future. Would it not be better that way? HONOURABLE SIELE: Thank you Mr Chairman. The HONOURABLE SIELE: House will agree with me that Thank you Mr Chairman. I the Ipelegeng Programme has believe Dikgosi will agree contributed a lot in cleaning with me that the Ipelegeng the environment countrywide. programme has done so many Their services even extend to the other projects like to dig ponds schools where they cut the grass for watering cattle and gardens. as the students are expected to This improves people’s lives. It focus on their studies and not has been about three or four years perform such tasks. There are since we started the Integrated numerous other duties that are Support Programme for Arable performed through Ipelegeng. Agricultural Development Most of our Dikgotla have secure (ISPAAD). I believe Dikgosi shelters partly through this will agree with me that there has

111 Thursday 21 June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer been an outcry from farmers that MINISTER OF LOCAL livestock destroys their fields. GOVERNMENT (HON. One of the Ipelegeng projects SIELE): Thank you Mr is to erect fences that separate Chairman. If there has not been grazing lands and farms. When any consultation with Dikgosi we talk of developments, I can then an anomaly has occurred also cite an example of our somewhere. The employment of classrooms which are in a very the Ipelegeng workers is done bad state. These are the problems at the Kgotla and therefore the that we can address through this coordinators of the programme programme. The 100 million Pula are supposed to be working with that I mentioned earlier on will be Dikgosi. As I indicated earlier for the material that we shall be on, there are instances where the using for such projects. I believe that the Ipelegeng programme shelters have been built in our has done a commendable job in Dikgotla through the Ipelegeng developing people’s lives. On the programme and I do not think issue regarding people’s laziness, that those people just started the supervisors should ensure constructing those shelters that people perform diligently for without any consultation. The those hours that they have been proper procedure and expectation allocated to work. Thank you. is that the coordinators of this programme should work with KGOSI MOSADI: Thank you Dikgosi because what they do is Mr Chairman. We appreciate for the community which is led what the Minister has been by Dikgosi. If they do not involve saying regarding this programme. Dikgosi then it is something We cannot deny that there are that should be looked into or it areas where this programme is could be part of the agenda for yielding results. My only concern the workshop that we shall be is that there is no consultation holding next week. Thank you. with Dikgosi when it comes to this programme. Through KGOSI LEMPADI: Thank you consultations, Dikgosi could Mr Chairman and the Honourable have a platform to advice the Government on some projects Minister. I appreciate that there to be performed by Ipelegeng. are some projects that Ipelegeng Does The Minister not deem it does, that show evident progress necessary for Dikgosi to have however, in some places the a contribution regarding this tax payer’s money is just being programme? wasted. 112 Thursday 21 June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer

MR CHAIRMAN: Since the programme for construction of Minister mentioned that we could Customary Court offices will use next week’s workshop to be reviewed together with other discuss the programme, perhaps national priorities as and when we could also discuss the issues the economic situation improves. of effectiveness and efficiency Thank you Mr Chairman. regarding this programme. KGOSI LEMPADI: I HONOURABLE SIELE: I understand what the Minister is shall do that Mr Chairman. saying however, this issue should be looked into because I share an MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you office with two other Dikgosi Honourable Minister. back home. We even share a desk and that makes it difficult RESUMPTION OF for us to perform our duties well CONSTRUCTION OF because there are certain issues CUSTOMARY COURTS that require privacy. When will OFFICES COUNTRYWIDE this anomaly be corrected? In our KGOSI K. LEMPADI area, houses that were built by the (OKAVANGO REGION): Village Development Committee asked the Minister of Local (VDC) are being used as offices. Government when he intends to Will this issue ever be resolved? resume the planned programme HONOURABLE SIELE: of constructing Customary Courts Thank you Mr Chairman. The Offices country wide since it was state of the Kgotla offices in suspended sometime ago. many areas leaves a lot to be MINISTER OF LOCAL desired however as I stated, we GOVERNMENT (HON currently have no funds to address SIELE): Thank you very this situation. I do however much Mr Chairman. Given the commend the VDCs for the prevailing economic situation, job that they continue doing, as Government took a decision they have constructed offices in to defer all planned projects many areas. The other day when and that there will be no new I was in Makwate, I commended infrastructure projects during their VDC for the good job that National Development Plan they did by constructing offices 10 (NDP 10). This includes for Kgosi, his assistants as well construction of Customary as the Police officers. Each had Court offices countrywide. The their own electrified offices. 113 Thursday 21 June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer

Those are some of the things that HONOURABLE SIELE: we commend the VDCs for even Thank you Mr Chairman. Kgosi though there are some offices is suggesting that we should which leave a lot to be desired consider tapping from the services and often do not suit the dignity that we offer. It has not been of the Kgotla. As I have stated, very long since the Value Added though there are still no funds Tax (VAT) was increased by 2 and my colleague here can vouch percent to become 12 percent. for me on that account with There was an outcry countrywide regards to the economic crisis in that resulted from that increment. Europe and the rest of the world, When we look into our economy we are monitoring the situation and the state of living in general, and when the situation improves, we can see that the resources are we shall deal with that shortage really not enough to go around. gradually until we attain our These are some of the issues that goals. Thank you. are of great concern. The funds KGOSI MASUNGA: I would accrued from the payments made like to enquire from the Minister from the matimela cattle are also if there is no service among the not enough considering that the ones that we provide as Dikgosi people who take care of them that can be paid for so that a have to be paid. The cattle have general fund can be established to be fed and their health also has to address such issues. We have to be taken into consideration; a seen at the Land Boards and lot of money is spent on them. the Councils that part of their Recently, there was an outcry revenue is accumulated through when it was revealed that the payment of the services they prices for cattle slaughtering provide. Considering that we at the Meat Commission and have quite a large number of elsewhere are going to be Dikgotla, providing them with increased. Therefore, whenever accommodation can be rather we talk about increasing the charges for services, we should difficult. We used to have consider how it will affect Matimela which were transferred people. Especially considering to the Councils but I want to that we are experiencing lack believe that there is something of employment in our country. that we can explore. Thank you. Thank you. 114 Thursday 21 June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer

KGOSI LEMPADI: Thank you does not have any intention Mr Chairman and the Honourable to introduce salaries for VDC Minister. Perhaps I should members as this will neither be suggest that your Department affordable nor sustainable. My should consider reducing this Ministry will therefore continue burden from the VDCs. paying them sitting allowance in appreciation of their role. I thank PAYMENT OF MONTLHY you Mr Chairman. SALARIES TO VILLAGE DEVELOPMENT KGOSI MACHILIDZA: COMMITTEE MEMBERS Thank you Mr Chairman. Has the Minister noticed any progress KGOSI K. LEMPADI within the VDCs members’ lives (OKAVANGO REGION): seeing that they are regarded asked the Minister of Local as volunteers and are just paid Government if he will consider allowances? Secondly, I would paying Village Development like to know whether the VDC’s Committee (VDC) Members sitting allowance is similar to a monthly salary instead of any other sitting allowance in the current arrangement where Government Departments. It they are given an allowance per appears like they are treated scheduled meeting. unfairly. They volunteer their time to develop the villages and MINISTER OF LOCAL yet they are still regarded as GOVERNMENT (HON. volunteers by the Government. SIELE): Village Development Does the Minister consider this Committees (VDCs) were right? established by a Presidential Directive of 1998 for purposes HONOURABLE SIELE: Thank of implementing development you Mr Chairman. I believe programs in villages. As volunteerism is a good practice. development agencies, VDCs When the country attained are the main institutions independence, four pillars were responsible for coordination introduced and one of them was of all development matters at self sustenance. In the past, there village level. Membership of was a lot of volunteerism in these committees is voluntary our villages and people did not and members are not perceived expect any form of payment. As as employees hence paid a sitting time went on, it was considered allowance. My Ministry therefore that the members of the VDCs

115 Thursday 21 June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer should be given some form of it be wrong to do that Honourable allowance so that they could be Minister? able to buy a few necessities. Mr Chairman, there are HONOURABLE SIELE: different forms of volunteerism Thank you Mr Chairman. countrywide and even in many According to my knowledge, developed countries, there is a the VDC members in different lot of volunteerism going on. villages have been tasked with In some developed countries the supervisory roles in the being a councillor is a voluntary Ipelegeng programme. They vocation. We shall however rotate to do that duty and are paid continue to look into this situation accordingly. The arrangement as well as the economy. was started by them. Thank you. Mr Chairman, there are around KGOSI LEMPADI: Thank you 721 VDCs in our country and each Mr Chairman. Please look into VDC consists of 10 members. this issue Honourable Minister When we talk of payment of since the spirit of volunteerism the members, we should first might just disappear. establish if they are going to be public servants as well as REVIEW OF CUSTOMARY establishing the cadre they will COURT CLERKS’ belong to. If they join the civil SALARIES service, then we also have to KGOSI K. LEMPADI consider their benefits when they (OKAVANGO REGION): retire. Members of the VDCs who asked the Minister of Local volunteer their services possess different skills and so it would Government when he intends be a challenging task to create reviewing salaries for Customary job descriptions for them. As we Court Clerks as they offer all know, qualifications matter in invaluable services to Dikgosi today’s jobs. Thank you. particularly those who do not have the capacity to read and KGOSI TOTO II: Thank you write. Mr Chairman. I wanted to enquire from the Minister if it cannot be MINISTER OF LOCAL possible for the VDC members to GOVERNMENT (HON augment their income by being SIELE): Thank you, Mr designated as the supervisors in Chairman. Salaries for Customary the Ipelegeng programme? Will Court Clerks like those of 116 Thursday 21 June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer all other Public Officers are ignoring the issue. It is instead reviewed by relevant authorities trying to come up with ways during a normal salaries review through which the Public service exercise. Therefore, while I can be assisted from this inflation acknowledge and appreciate the which has lessened the value of invaluable services Customary their salaries. Thank you Mr Court Clerks perform, I cannot Chairman. commit to reviewing their KGOSI LEMPADI: Thank salaries in isolation from those you Mr Chairman as well as the of other officers. Thank you, Mr Honourable Minister. I request Chairman. that there should be evident KGOSI LEMPADI: Thank you changes within you Ministry. Mr Chairman. Is the Minister aware that the Customary Court MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Clerks’ salaries are different from Kgosi Lempadi. the other clerks in the sense that COMPENSATION FOR they are too low? The Headmen CHARLESHILL RESIDENTS of Arbitration even earn more than them. KGOSI M. KAHIKO III (GHANZI WEST REGION): HONOURABLE SIELE: I am asked the Minister of Local aware of the situation that Kgosi Government when he will is talking about Mr Chairman, compensate the people who were however things are now different affected by the construction of with regards to the Public the internal roads in Charleshill service Act. Nowadays salary since the assessments were increments are not mentioned carried out and they were told not during the delivery of the budget to commence any developments. speech, when the Minister states the economic situation, inflation MINISTER OF LOCAL in the markets as well as the GOVERNMENT (HON solutions to problems. In the SIELE): Thank you very current Public service Act, the much, Mr Chairman. Today my Trade Unions and the Bargaining Ministry, through Ghanzi District Council have to hold talks to Council, has compensated 196 determine the salary increases property owners at a total cost of of the public servants. However, P4,027,329.64 in Charleshill who even though that might be the were affected by construction of case, the Government is not just the internal roads. Assessment 117 Thursday 21 June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer for the remaining properties was the whole report because it would further done by the Ministry of have to be re-done to determine Lands and Housing. The Report the appropriate compensation on the same was submitted at for those concerned. It is a the end of May 2012 and the mammoth task that can prove to compensation for these properties be challenging. Thank you. will be made upon conclusion of the recommendations from KGOSI KAHIKO III: The the assessment. I thank you, Mr Minister did not answer my Chairman. question. The Government assessors went there to inspect KGOSI KAHIKO III: Thank you that place and afterwards they Mr Chairman. We do appreciate instructed some residents your response however; the to cease developments but assessment has long been done. they never came back. Some You said everything will be residents were compensated but resolved upon the conclusion those who were told to halt the of the recommendations of the developments have not been assessment, when will the report compensated up until today. All be released. The community I want to know is, when will the wants answers, that is why I Government assessors complete am asking how long it will take their assessment since they were before the report is released. the only assessors? They did not even bring any assessor from HONOURABLE SIELE: Charleshill. Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. As I have already MR CHAIRMAN: What is your mentioned, the report was question Kgosi Kahiko? concluded at the end of May, however, the delay might have KGOSI KAHIKO III: My been caused by different factors. question is, when will the report At times when the inspectors go be released since the Council to the concerned places, they or Land Board is the one which do not find those affected. On was making the assessments other occasions, they find them without the assistance of any but differences would arise private assessor? The Minister with the findings. Other people was assuming that perhaps end up engaging the services there might have been a private of independent assessors. That assessor involved as well but alone has the potential to delay that was not the case so, when

118 Thursday 21 June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer will the report be released so and the rest of the assessments that people can commence with are being done and after their the developments or can be conclusion then the people will compensated. be paid. The procedure is that if an individual has got some MR CHAIRMAN: I am not doubts or does not agree with the sure if I understand the question. results of the assessment, they The Minister explained that there can engage a private property has been an assessment carried valuer who will then consider out and whenever it happens that all the circumstances and give there are any disagreements then a report as well. That is what people sometimes engage the happens all the time. At times services of a private assessor. though it becomes evident that the That is why I am enquiring what services of a private valuer might the question really is because it become costly and therefore it is now sounds as if Kgosi’s focus important for the affected people is that there should have been to sit down and weigh their a private assessor involved as options to see which could be of well. What is the question Kgosi benefit to them. Thank you Mr Kahiko? Chairman.

KGOSI KAHIKO III: KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH My question is, since the EAST DISTRICT): I do not assessment was conducted by think there is fairness in all this the Government assessors who Mr Chairman. I assume that in turn halted everything that the the Government in this case people were doing, when is the has engaged its own assessor report or the compensation going who is a Government employee to be released? and that person is paid by the Government. Since queries tend MINISTER OF LOCAL to arise from these assessments GOVERNMENT (HON then it is better to engage an SIELE): Thank you Mr independent assessor or valuer Chairman. I explained that there paid by the Government from were initially 196 assessments the onset, who will not be biased. conducted however, the Ministry Thank you. of Lands and Housing was still conducting other assessments HONOURABLE SIELE: which were concluded at the Thank you Mr Chairman. We end of May. We are now in June are now talking hypothetical

119 Thursday 21 June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer situations since there has not Government to explain when been anyone who complained the post of Supplies Officer at about the compensation they Masunga Tribal Administration got, we are just talking about will be filled. procedure. If the Government has MINISTER OF LOCAL to pay the private assessor, there GOVERNMENT (HON is a possibility that the assessor SIELE): Mr Chairman, the might feel obliged to side with vacant post at Masunga Tribal the payer. That is why in all Administration is in fact a Store- instances where there is a query Keeper II at B4 salary scale. after a medical practitioner’s As this House may be aware, assessment, in case of death or recruitment into the lower injury, one is at liberty to engage grade positions in general has a private medical practitioner. been frozen across the entire The practitioner will then look Government in accordance with into whether the Government Directorate of Public Service Doctor did a proper job or not. Management Circular Savingram In this case, if an individual of November, 2011. I therefore is not satisfied then he or she cannot say with certainty when should engage a qualified private the post will be filled. Thank property valuer who can then you. make his or her own findings. Thank you. KGOSI MASUNGA: It is understandable Honourable KGOSI KAHIKO III: Thank Minister however, I was you Mr Chairman and I would wondering if it would not be like to urge the Minister to ensure possible to train someone in that this matter is attended to as that department who would soon as possible. Assessments then do that job in the meantime were made by the Government rather than having someone officials and nobody else. Thank commute between Francistown you. and Masunga. I do not think it SUPPLIES OFFICER is a complicated job to do and I AT MASUNGA TRIBAL believe that someone from the ADMINISTRATION Industrial Class cadre could be engaged especially considering KGOSI M. T. MASUNGA the distance travelled between (NORTH EAST DISTRICT): Francistown and Masunga. asked the Minister of Local Thank you.

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HONOURABLE SIELE: on making these trips between I will look into this issue Francistown and Masunga. immediately after this meeting since I am with the Director of ASSISTANCE TO that Department here. We shall MOLEPOLOLE PRIMARY discuss how the issue can be SCHOOLS approached especially regarding KGOSI B. GAREBAKWENA that possibility of training those (MOLEPOLOLE REGION): who are already there to do that asked the Minister of Local job. It is however quite risky in Government what measures she the sense that nowadays people intends to put in place to assist equate the job they do with the primary schools in Molepolole money they are paid and there are which have no pit latrines but certain procedures to follow. One only water system toilets given would have to discuss that issue the current situation where water with the concerned officer and is not available in the village if they agree with the proposed most of the time, to ensure that intervention that is when action the health of children is not can be taken. Nowadays even compromised. transferring someone from one station to another has changed, it MINISTER OF LOCAL is not like in the past where they GOVERNMENT (HON would be just furnished with SIELE): Mr Chairman, I am letters of transfer. The individual aware of the situation of primary has to be called for discussions schools which experience and they have to give reasons as challenges in toilet facilities to why they would not want to caused by lack of water and move if at all they do not want maintenance of water system to. These changes which call for toilets in Molepolole. As the transparency have really put us Honourable Member may in a difficult position. Thank you be aware, pit latrines are a source of underground water Mr Chairman. contamination. Based on KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank this, during the financial year you Mr Chairman. I would be 2012/2013, my Ministry, through very grateful if that can be done Kweneng District Council, has Honourable Minister as well reserved funds for procurement as the Director because it is a of water tanks as a backup to waste of petrol and time to keep address the unreliable water 121 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer supply experienced to facilitate CHAIRMAN’S OPENING proper functioning of water REMARKS system toilets. Thank you. MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI KGOSI GAREBAKWENA: PUSO GABORONE): Good Thank you Minister and thank morning Honourable Members you Mr Chairman. and Ministers. We are on the last MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you day of the meeting and I believe Kgosi Garebakwena. Honourable that we shall be time conscious Members, it appears that we so that we complete today’s have come to the end of today’s business on the Order Paper. business. This means that we That does not mean I will in any shall adjourn and meet again at way deter Honourable Members half past nine in the morning. Do from speaking freely, but I will not be too ecstatic Honourable simply be cautious of time. On Member and assume that our that note, I welcome you all to work here is done for today. You today’s business. should go and have your tea and QUESTIONS FOR ORAL come back here at eleven. Those ANSWER who are not Members of this House are free to go and continue DIFFERENCE BETWEEN with other duties. EAR TAGS AND BOLUS

ADJOURNMENT KGOSI M. KAHIKO III (GHANZI WEST REGION): The House accordingly adjourned asked the Minister of Agriculture nd at 10.26 a.m. until Friday 22 to state the difference between January 2012, at 9.30 a.m. ear tags and bolus and further state; Friday 22nd June, 2012 i. why farmers have to pay THE HOUSE met at 9.30am for the ear tags; (THE CHAIRPERSON in the ii. why farmers were not Chair) paying for the bolus; and P R A Y E R S iii. what the cost was for each * * * * bolus.

122 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer

ASSISTANT MINISTER the ear tag. The electronic ear tag OF AGRICULTURE (HON makes it easier to electronically MOLEBATSI): Mr Chairman, transfer captured data from the technically a bolus and an ear tag to the data base. electronic ear tag are the same Farmers have so far played a as they both use a RFID (Radio very little role on the running Frequency Identification Device) of Livestock Identification and system. In the case of a bolus Trace-back System, while the this is a microchip with a unique Government is doing everything number, embedded in the ceramic including what should be done by capsule whilst in the case of an the farmers such as application of ear tag it is in a special plastic the officially approved identifier. cover. Although the bolus has This practice however is not advantages such as being tamper possible when using bolus as proof, recyclable and having high an identifier. This is so because retention rate, some shortfalls the bolusing technique needs have been identified. Some of some application skills and a them are that there is nothing bolus reader to read the unique external which indicates that the bolus number. The Government animal has a bolus. Verification of is giving farming back to the the animal bolus status needs an farmers by enabling them to buy officially approved bolus reader. and apply the tags themselves. Bolus cannot be used in Foot and Mr Chairman, when the Mouth Disease (FMD) control electronic animal identification zones as it is likely to transmit (bolusing) was introduced, the the FMD virus through the bolus Government was still trying applicator. Lack of resources to educate and encourage associated with bolus insertion the uptake of the program by i.e. transport, manpower etc were the farming community. The identified as a major bottle neck. IT infrastructure was not as Mr Chairman, the advantage widespread and developed with the ear tag is the microchip as it is now and therefore unique number which is also Government took it upon itself inscribed on the surface of the to buy and apply the IDs and ear tag. This therefore means that become responsible for the data the number can both be easily transfer and management. The read visually or with the use of IT infrastructure has now been a microchip reader. The same improved; farmers now know bolus reader can be used to read more about animal ID and can be 123 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer able to implement the program MINISTER OF TRANSPORT themselves. The cost of the bolus AND COMMUNICATIONS ranges from P17.00 to P21.00 (HON MOLEFHI): Mr depending on manufacturer. Chairman, currently there However, the cost of the bolus are no plans to construct the Molapowabojang, Letlhakane cannot be taken in isolation East, Moshaneng and Sese access since the process involves a roads to bitumen standard. The chain of costs. These include access road policy of 2004 allows the human resources, transport for access roads to be constructed (vehicles, fuel, maintenance); from the main road under and equipment (procurement, construction or re-construction maintenance and service). to link gazetted villages within a All these must be taken into 10km radius. This will be subject consideration when calculating to other considerations such as costs for the bolus insertion village population, traffic volume process. Thank you. and internal rate of return. That notwithstanding, my Ministry KGOSI KAHIKO III: is currently carrying out road Thank you Mr Chairman and pavement investigations on the Honourable Minister. Lobatse-Jwaneng road section, other primary and secondary CONSTRUCTION OF roads sections, as well as other ACCESS ROUTES ALONG primary and secondary roads THE TRANS-KALAHARI in the Southern District. This HIGHWAY will be done to determine what KGOSI B. RAMOKONE interventions are required to (KANYE REGION): asked preserve the roads and this will the Minister of Transport and assist in developing future plans for roads within the area. These Communications when he access roads will be subjected will consider constructing to the normal prioritization access routes along the Trans processes alongside other Kalahari highway between prospective projects. Thank you. Lobatse and Jwaneng, mainly in Molapowabojang, Letlhakane KGOSI RAMOKONE: East, Moshaneng and Sese since Thank you Mr Chairman and Honourable Minister. I believe they are under 10km from the this will be considered in a short highway. period of time. 124 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer

KANYE POST OFFICE NOT MINISTER OF TRANSPORT IN USE AND COMMUNICATIONS (HON MOLEFHI): Mr KGOSI B. RAMOKONE Chairman, the design of (KANYE REGION): asked Mohembo-Gudigwa road to the Minister of Transport and bitumen standard has been done Communications why Kanye up to Beetsha. Construction of Post Office has not been in use the road is not included in NDP after 2 years of renovation and 10. It shall be considered in whether it is still going to be used future plans with other equally as a Post Office. important and deserving projects. MINISTER OF TRANSPORT I thank you. AND COMMUNICATIONS KGOSI LEMPADI: My request (HON MOLEFHI): Mr is that it should start from Beetsha Chairman, the Old Kanye Post to Gudigwa. Thank you. Office has been successfully renovated and computerized. LOCOMOTIVES THAT The Post Office is operational as ARE IN OPERATION AT th of 18 June 2012. Thank you. BOTSWANA RAILWAY KGOSI RAMOKONE: If the KGOSI K. BOIDITSWE situation is like that, I will accept (SEROWE REGION): asked it but when I left it was not in the Minister of Transport and use. Communications to state:- MR CHAIRMAN: Then it means the Honourable Minister i. the number of locomotives was referring to the time when at Botswana Railways that the House business commenced are in operation and those on Monday. Thank you, Kgosi which are not; and Ramokone. ii. where and to whom they TARRING OF MOHEMBO- are sold after they have GUDIGWA ROAD been boarded

KGOSI K. LEMPADI MINISTER OF TRANSPORT (OKAVANGO REGION): AND COMMUNICATIONS asked the Minister of Transport (HON MOLEFHI): Mr and Communications when the Chairman, Botswana Railways Mohembo- Gudigwa road will own a fleet of 34 locomotives. be tarred. Five locomotives are undergoing 125 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer major repairs and are currently KGOSI M. T. MASUNGA not running, as they are awaiting (NORTH EAST DISTRICT): long lead delivery components. asked the Minister of Transport Furthermore, two locomotives and Communications to state were involved in an accident and when the telecommunication are undergoing repairs. The two industry is going to adopt the are expected to be back on service Local Portability System since within three months. Botswana the telecommunication market is Railways is therefore currently now fully grown. operating with 27 locomotives. Mr Chairman, in line with MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND COMMUNICATIONS Botswana Railways Tender (HON MOLEFHI): Mr Regulations and Procurement Chairman, Local Number Procedures, Botswana Railways Portability (LNP) system Board of Management approves is the ability of a telephone the Disposal of Equipment before subscriber or customer to retain disposing it off. Once the approval his/her local phone number from the Board is granted, a when switching subscription Board of Survey is conducted to from one Public Telephone determine the reserve prices of Operator (PTO) to another. The the locomotives. Management of Botswana Telecommunications Botswana Railways through the Authority and the Public procurement process structures Telephone Operators are still considering its introduction. advertises equipment to be It will require technical and disposed off to attract bidders. socio-economic assessment to The highest compliant offer determine its implications before would then be awarded to bid. implementation. This viability Where bids are lower than assessment is already underway the reserve price, the tender is and is scheduled to be completed withdrawn for later re-tendering. in October. Thank you. Thank you. KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank you KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Mr Chairman and Honourable Thank you Mr Chairman and Minister. Honourable Minister. RESOURCES SHARING ADOPTION OF LOCAL BETWEEN THE PRIVATE PORTABILITY SYSTEM RADIO STATIONS

126 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer

AND GOVERNMENT Sharing of resources between the BROADCASTING radio stations and Government SERVICES Broadcasting Services will be considered if it is appropriate and KGOSI M. T. MASUNGA viable just as between different (NORTH EAST DISTRICT): operators in other sub-sectors asked the Minister of Transport will be done. The Government is and Communications to continuously increasing network explain:- penetration to all communities i. what role the Ministry such that they can be able to is playing to facilitate gain access to the Internet. infrastructure and resources Programmes such as Nteletsa sharing between the II not only increased mobile private radio stations and internet access but also provided Government Broadcasting Kitsong Centers wherein Services; communities can access Internet services. Other programmes such ii. what the Government is as international connectivity doing to ensure the uptake through the Eastern Africa Cable and penetration of internet System (EASSy) and the West usage at family and national Africa Cable System (WACS) level; and do not increase availability of internet bandwidth. However, iii. what the Ministry is doing they are also aimed at reducing to sensitize and educate telecommunications services Batswana about the including the internet prices transition from analogue further. The internet prices to digital terrestrial have already been reduced as television. a result of EASSy in February MINISTER OF TRANSPORT 2011 and the revision of prices AND COMMUNICATIONS through the cost model and (HON MOLEFHI): Mr pricing framework my Ministry Chairman, the Ministry is in undertook the same year. Further the process of completing an reductions ranging up to 60 per infrastructure sharing policy cent will be realized this year which will be tabled for approval once the WACS system comes before end of this year. This into operation. These efforts will Policy encourages infrastructure increase penetration and uptake sharing across the ICT sector. of Internet at family and national 127 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer levels. The Ministry established was a proposal for every public the Digital Migration Task Force service officer who has the (DMTF) in 2008, consisting of interest to buy a computer at a various stakeholders, to develop subsidized price. It is still under a digital migration strategy. The consideration because we still digital migration strategy has have to finalize the logistics of been developed and currently their upgrading and servicing. my Ministry and the Ministry of We believe those who have Presidential Affairs and Public interest will do so, but we still Administration are assessing need to address the issue of profit various digital broadcasting loss that might happen when standards. This is done in order to we do the cost cutting strategy. select the most suitable standard Government prioritizes bringing of Digital Broadcasting for services closer to the people. This Botswana. The digital migration means that the internet cables will strategy will be put into place be brought closer to households once the appropriate digital so that they can connect easily broadcasting standard has been for personal use. We shall selected, after which a national continue to hold talks with campaign will be undertaken. I parastatal and private companies thank you. for their input in this because we are in partnership with them in KGOSI MASUNGA: Does the computer technology. Honourable Minister not deem it advantageous for Government KGOSI MASUNGA: Mr to subsidize ownerships of Chairman I know that Radio laptops and computers for every Stations fall under the Ministry household? I think this was of Presidential Affairs and Public once published in Savingrams Administration. My question for a while; I am not sure what however is, what is being done happened thereafter. We are to address the issue of poor looking at the fact that nowadays signals of private radio stations in terms of information, ICT is at in remote areas since they can the forefront of everything and only be accessed within a certain children will grow exposed to it. radius? Their licenses are national Will that not benefit us? I thank licenses, and so what is the you. Ministry doing to remind them of the agreement of honouring HONOURABLE MOLEFHI: their promises? I thank you Mr Thank you Mr Chairman. This Chairman. 128 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer

HONOURABLE MOLEFHI: KGOSI M. T. MASUNGA Thank you Mr Chairman. It is (NORTH EAST DISTRICT): indeed true that some private asked the Minister of Transport radio stations have very poor and Communications to state:- signals in some areas and the i) when the Tshesebe- distributor of licenses has noted Mosojane-Masunga road that. The intention is that after will be tarred; we have finished the digital migration framework, we shall ii) how many years the road make follow up on all those has been on plan for who have promised to cover construction; a certain radius. The idea is to share transmitters which will iii) how many roads within assist in attaining clear signals the District are going to be to everyone. This is what we tarred within the next five have been consulting on with years; and Botswana Telecommunications Authority as a regulator and the iv) what is the position of the license holders. It is important Ministry on the Economic to mention that they are not the Diversification Drive only ones involved. This idea of (EDD) and accessibility of infrastructure has been thrown roads and markets. on the table to mobile telephone MINISTER OF TRANSPORT service providers so that they AND COMMUNICATIONS do not plant their transmitters (HON MOLEFHI): Mr anywhere. This will in turn Chairman, construction of reduce environment pollution Tshesebe-Mosojane-Masunga which can be caused by different satellites planted anywhere. So road to bitumen standard is not this is something that is still on included in NDP 10. However, the the pipeline. I thank you Mr design of the road was completed Chairman. in July 2008. Construction was initially planned for NDP KGOSI MASUNGA: I 8 that is 1997-2003. Due to thank you Mr Chairman and budgetary constraints the Honourable Minister. implementation failed to take- off as was the case with other TARRING OF TSHESEBE- road projects like Mohembo- MOSOJANE-MASUNGA Beetsha and Mmamashia- ROAD Modipane-Mabalane road. 129 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer

However, the design of the said more roads within the broader road as I mentioned earlier has Transport Hub projects and been completed. Originally the facilitation, resources availability construction was meant to be restrict the capacity with which taken up soon after the design adequate access is created. Thank was completed. The design was you Mr Chairman. then delayed due to request KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank from the community to change you Mr Chairman. Honourable the scope of works to include Minister the linkage for North access roads to Kgari and East roads is the Masunga District Mulambakwena. By the time Headquarters. Now the question the design was completed, the is how will the local economy project could not go ahead due to in that district progress if there budgetary constraints resultant are no roads? We should bear in from the global recession or mind that all the companies that financial crisis. bring services to this place want to supply quality goods. If roads The roads that are being are not in good condition, how constructed within the region will the goods be delivered there are access roads from the main in a good state? Francistown-Ramokgwebana road to the following villages; HONOURABLE MOLEFHI: Themashanga, Jackalas Thank you Mr Chairman. We No.1, Jackalas No.2, Siviya, shall continually take into Mabudzane, Kgari and a link consideration how best we can between Senyawe village meet the needs of the North East and Butale. The Minister of District. Just recently, I assured Transport and Communications the Member of Parliament for the through Roads Department district that when we do our NDP facilitates trade by providing 10 Midterm Review, projects that safe and secure roads. The were approved in the previous department does so through both financial year and were not in-house teams and engagement carried over to NDP 10 will be of the private sector for both carefully considered. Through the construction and maintenance advice of the North East District, of roads. This in turn contributes the Ministry shall prioritize to to the Government Economic see which ones to include and the Diversification Drive. While ones to leave out. This will have Government is desirous to pave to be done taking into account

130 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer the intention to diversify the Unfortunately when the NDP 10 economy as well as purchasing was prepared, that project was locally produced goods. I thank not included because it was not you Mr Chairman. done in NDP 9 which initially was in NDP 8. That is why we KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank are saying when we do midterm you Mr Chairman. The Sebina project review in September/ road has not been repaired since October; we are going to look 1997 to 2012; 15 years have at all these projects sequentially. elapsed. What is the impact on As we speak, we managed to the development of rural lives secure funds to renew the road which are partly hindered by from Sebina to Masunga even the slow development of roads? though it is a great distance. I In your perspective, have things think the project is already at the been done properly in the last tender awarding stage because 15 years taking into account that the closing date was in June. I we still have roads leading to the also believe that if this project is District Headquarters in the same all about grading the road, it will deteriorated state? make accessibility easier. We have realized that a journey from HONOURABLE MOLEFHI: Tshesebe to Masunga is shorter Mr Chairman, I cannot say because it is just 29 kilometres things were done properly. When unlike the one from Tshesebe the review on renewal of roads through Ramokgwebana up to including bridges was supposed Moroka and back. We shall be to be completed, the North East cognizant of all these pending District wanted roads leading to issues in the next financial year. Kgari and Mulambakwena to be I thank you Mr Chairman. included. That in turn brought to a halt, the design work that was KGOSI MASUNGA: Thank you already done. It then became Mr Chairman and Honourable a new project all together and Minister. by the time the project was completed in 2008, the Tshesebe- GRANTING CATTLE TO SOME HOUSEHOLDS IN Mosojane-Masunga road project THE OKAVANGO REGION commencement was halted by recession in June 2008. All the KGOSI K. B. LEMPADI projects which were not yet (OKAVANGO REGION): started in 2008 were halted. asked the Minister for

131 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Questions for Oral Answer

Presidential Affairs and Public eradication programmes. I Administration if he will consider have brought along with me granting, under the Poverty a document that shows all the Eradication Program, six heads programmes that fall under of cattle to the households in the poverty eradication and under Okavango region as was the case livestock it includes goats and with Arable Land Development sheep, not cattle. The Clerks Program (ALDEP), as they have indicated an interest in livestock shall distribute those documents rather than back yard gardens. for your perusal. I thank you Mr Chairman. ACTING MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL KGOSI LEMPADI: Thank you AFFAIRS AND PUBLIC Mr Chairman. When we talk of ADMINISTRATION (HON poverty eradication we should MATLHABAPHIRI): Mr consider programmes that could Chairman, I will not consider quickly assist to eradicate it. We granting six head of cattle to are of the idea that cattle can the households in the Okavango effectively eradicate poverty. Region under the Poverty Eradication Programme since HONOURABLE such assistance is available under MATLHABAPHIRI: Thank the Remote Area Development you Mr Chairman. The Programme (RADP). Thank Government has introduced you. numerous programmes and this KGOSI MACHILIDZA: Thank is why I am saying we cannot you Mr Chairman. Since the have a replication of RADP Honourable Minister is saying under poverty eradication when it will not be possible to provide they mean the same thing. The that, does he see the current beneficiaries shall choose for system satisfactory to the people themselves whatever programme it is meant for? they deem fit to suit their needs. HONOURABLE Poverty eradication covers a vast MATLHABAPHIRI: Thank array of programmes and that is you Kgosi. The RADP is meant why I brought those documents for cattle rearing but the one so that Members could appreciate that Kgosi is talking about is them because it does not cover not included under poverty only back yard gardening.

132 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Engaging of Private Company to Operate Railway Line Services KGOSI KAHIKO III: Is it information to their communities up to the beneficiary or the so that they can have a better Government to decide the understanding too. suitable programmes? It looks like there are two programmes KGOSI LEMPADI: Thank you being the RADP and the Poverty Mr Chairman. I should perhaps Eradication Programme. The emphasize to the Minister that RADP mainly specializes in some of us are not conversant provision of cattle and the other with gardening altogether. one is not about providing MR CHAIRMAN: Thank beneficiaries with cattle even you Kgosi Lempadi, We are though they have the capability of taking care of cattle. I thank continuing with our program and you Mr Chairman. now moving on to motions

HONOURABLE ENGAGING OF PRIVATE MATLHABAPHIRI: Thank COMPANY TO OPERATE you Mr Chairman. In all the RAILWAY LINE SERVICES programmes that have been Motion designed to eradicate poverty, it depends on the individual to KGOSI M. MMUALEFHE choose the best for themselves (CHOBE DISTRICT): Thank because they are many. It is you Mr Chairman for granting important to note that cattle me this opportunity to present my were not included under poverty motion before this Honourable eradication scheme because House. The motion reads, “That they were already covered this Honourable House requests under another programme. The Government to engage private bottom line is that people get to companies to operate railway choose for themselves the type services in Botswana so as to of programme most suitable for benefit both the Government and them like backyard gardening Batswana at large.” I have tabled or bakery. Furthermore, this motion because as you may they consider whether their recall in 2009, the then Minister environment is suitable for the of Finance and Development, the type of project they want to do. late Honourable Baledzi Gaolathe I have brought some copies that tabled a motion in Parliament talk about poverty eradication and which requested Government to I believe Honourable Members halt the passenger train. This was will be able to disseminate the attributed to the fact that the train 133 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Engaging of Private Company to Operate Railway Line Services was costing Government too much The traffic between Gaborone money because even Botswana and Francistown has greatly Railways was experiencing increased but if the passenger a great loss. Honourable train could be brought back into Members, in the midst of all operation, it could be reduced. this, Batswana are the ones who Furthermore, people might even have felt the consequences. This prefer boarding a train rather is especially so for those along than using their private vehicles. the Ramatlabama, Francistown This will also assist in reducing and Ramokgwebana villages. car accidents. The point that I am You will remember that during driving home is that engaging a those times, the train fares were private company would really very low such that one could be profitable to the Government pay P27 in a train and P80 in a because this means lesser bus. I have tabled this motion for expenditure since more input will consideration because it affects be coming from the company. the public greatly. The only expenditure that will be there will just be a subsidy made The issue is not only about by the Government. hiked fares, but there are other complaints that have been raised Mr Chairman, privatizing will by the public. For some of us who mean looking at the scope of normally use buses, we are faced coverage in our country because with a challenge of overcrowding we have Kalahari Trans Frontier in the bus rank which is so Park which is only used by trucks irritating. Passengers are forced and maybe it would be much to carry along with them a lot better if we could have a railway of luggage while on the other line too which will be used to hand they have children. During transport cattle from places those times when the passenger like Ghanzi and Charleshill to train was still in operation, Botswana Meat Commission the issue of overcrowding was (BMC). It might even extend not a challenge because some to outside the country up to preferred boarding a train during ports like Swakopmond and the night and those who were in Walvis Bay which can benefit a hurry could always use a bus us. When the train was stopped, during the day. Festive season one of our prominent business is even worse; people lose their people under transport in the luggage due to overcrowding. country, Mr Seabelo showed

134 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Engaging of Private Company to Operate Railway Line Services interest in running the passenger Dikgosana, that money could be train between Gaborone and used to pay them. With that being Lobatse but the Ministry turned said Mr Chairman, I request his request down. The main Government to give private reason for turning him down companies a chance to run the was that he was going to give Botswana Railways. I thank you minibus and taxi drivers a tough Mr Chairman and Honourable competition because we know Minister. they are the ones transporting MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you St Josephs College students in Kgosi Mmualefhe. Honourable the mornings. For those who Members, the floor is open for transport their children to school comments concerning the tabled and those who stay in Lobatse, motion. it was going to be an advantage in terms of transport fees. In KGOSI KAHIKO III Our neighbouring country, (GHANZI WEST REGION): South Africa, they use trains Thank you Mr Chairman. The as a means of transport to get mover of the motion started very to work in cities. The same can well but derailed along the way apply to places like Phakalane by including other places where and Mochudi. They could simply the train does not pass. He has use train instead of using their his facts right, but mixed them cars to reduce traffic congestion. along the way. The motion is not Mr Chairman, I do not wish to requesting Government to roll speak at length as it will not be out its services across the country of any help because I believe that but rather to engage private I am preaching to the converted companies to operate railway concerning this issue. Basically services. This is an initiative our request is that Government that Government could consider should privatize Botswana because it is a practice that is Railways to ease the budgetary happening already. We have seen constraints when it comes to the the merging of Water Affairs running and the maintenance and Water Utilities, Local Police of the train. By so doing, this and Botswana Police Service. will allow the Government Different departments are being to divert the expenditure to merged. Now that Government something else. We are forever was running at a loss, it would complaining at the Ministry of rather be better to hand it over Local Government about unpaid to private companies. Even

135 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Engaging of Private Company to Operate Railway Line Services though the passenger train does without boarding any bus. Let not pass through our village, I us rather look at the issue of am advocating for those whom road transport, it has completely it does because the fares are neutralized the passenger train, cheaper as compared to buses. so for us to expect the Minister to This will even reduce the death give this motion the green light, toll due to accidents between it would not be a wise move your Gaborone freeway and because it is going to affect a Francistown. This will be lot of people. At the same time, advantageous. I support this it will not make any difference motion even though the mover of because now majority of the the motion derailed from the gist public are already used to road of the matter by including places transport. There are buses which where the train does not pass employ many people. Big trucks through and going on to suggest transport cattle. Initially, we used that passenger train should be trains to transport our cattle but used to transport workers when now Government has spread there are taxis and minibuses to Botswana Meat Commission do that. offices (BMC) across the country. MR CHAIRMAN: by saying There is an abattoir in Maun, “your Francistown road,” you are Francistown and as far Boteti excluding yourself but it belongs and beyond. to all of us Batswana. Anyway let us move on. I believe that the mover of the motion lived in a place that KGOSI MACHILIDZA had access to trains during that (BOTETI REGION): Thank era but let us understand that you Mr Chairman, the mover things have changed, the young of the motion has proposed generation is the one that is that passenger train should be always on the road and they want brought back into operation for something that will not take their the benefit of this country and its time. We are all aware that a train nation. As a nation, we are aware takes a longer time and given the of our country’s economic status. current situation, I do not think Furthermore, we do acknowledge the passenger train will make any that some of us have lived in profit. Since this is a democratic the train era whereby people country, maybe it will be from Kasane connected from advisable to consider including Francistown to Gaborone just one wagon to the goods train 136 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Engaging of Private Company to Operate Railway Line Services rather than to have the full scale The reason why our Government to operate passenger train. stopped using the train was that it was running at a loss In the private sector, there is even though it used tax payer’s what we call a feasibility study money. Furthermore, there was to investigate the profit and loss; no individual who could afford to money is not just thrown away. run it on their own. We are not in Our Government is the only one any way trying to get in the way who can do that because she will of those who might show interest be using tax payer’s money for but I do not think it will be wise the welfare of its people. Some for Government to privatize businesses are non profitable and businesses that are not easy to I do not think an up-to-date and operate. Those who are running modernized business person will private companies borrow money venture into this kind of business, from Citizen Entrepreneurial they will make a feasibility study Development Agency (CEDA) just to investigate if they will but their businesses end up make profit or not. Maybe our failing and there is no how that Government might take on the money could be paid back so that business of coal so that we use others could also be assisted. it for cooking. The mover of the This motion did not come at the motion has mentioned Walvis right time. Let us wait for our Bay. We use it especially in the economy and even the growth trading of coal and other goods of our population to see if it has like meat from Botswana Meat grown enough to overwhelm Commission which is transported the carrying capacity of buses. in refrigerated trucks. However, Someone may be of the opinion we could always reduce the that the carrying capacity of expenditure by transporting to buses is overwhelmed, but that Cape Town. I do not wish to is an occasional thing that only spoil the motion but I want our happens during the holidays and Government to sensitize us about it does not warrant us to expand the economy so that we do not our network of transport. Well table motions that appear to be it can be on temporary basis if un-informed. We should also there is a country that requests to portray a visionary leadership transport its citizens on temporary so that we do not mislead our basis and in that way a country people. All that I can say is that at like Zimbabwe can transport its this juncture, we do not need this. citizens only during the holidays.

137 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Engaging of Private Company to Operate Railway Line Services We should be vigilant of how we be impossible. Even though the use our economy because we are mover of the motion is proposing aware of the current situation. that Government should hand Kgosi Kahiko mentioned that it over railway for privatization, I will be impossible to extend the would like to point out that this is railway line across the country. not a child’s play Mr Chairman. We still have a serious inadequacy For example, the iron wheel of in some of the significant needs. a train costs close to P1 million For example, as Kgosi Lempadi because it is around P800, 000, highlighted earlier on, there is yet the train uses a lot of them, shortage of office accommodation it is really expensive. I am very which hinders production. Since much aware that the Honourable the motion is proposing that the Minister is tackling the issue of railway should be privatized, bringing the passenger train back we are not sure if the public into use but our Government is will show interest but as for faced with a lot of challenges. Government, we cannot afford If it happens that the train is to do it, it will be costly. We are brought back into operation, it aiming at empowering Batswana will cost much more than bus to have ownership but we must transportation. The subsidy that be careful that our wishes do not has been given to people is so over power our own strength and low that it cannot even cover capability. Mr Chairman, with the day to day maintenance of those few words, I do not wish the train. Now if it going to be to spoil the motion but I do not privatized, then it means the think it is fit to be passed. I thank train fare is going to be more you Mr Chairman. than that of a bus because of its high maintenance and this will KGOSI TSHIPE be due to the fact that they will (MAHALAPYE REGION): be looking for profit at the end of Thank you Mr Chairman. I will the day. try to be as brief as possible It appeared easier because it was because Honourable Members run by Government using tax have already laid down some payers’ money. The reason why points. According to my Government stopped running the understanding, this can be a passenger train is because it was good motion but when taking running at a serious loss. Just to into consideration the current add on to what Kgosi Machilidza economic situation, it is going to has said, even if it were to be 138 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Engaging of Private Company to Operate Railway Line Services run by a private sector, it is It will not be a wise move for us going to affect our economy one to make laws that will hinder the way or the other. Ultimately progress of Batswana; instead Batswana will complain that the we should make laws that will privatization has brought nothing be able to create opportunities but desception. Mr Chairman, I for them so as to maximize the am observant of your time and resources they have. It is not with those words I thank you. wrong to privatize trains because any Motswana who shows MR CHAIRMAN: Kgosi interest will be able to run it. I Lempadi, the reason why Kgosi thank you Mr Chairman. Tshipe said he is observant of my time, he meant that it is time KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH to go for tea, so we are going to EAST DISTRICT): Thank you suspend the deliberations and go Mr Chairman. I too stand here to for tea. When we come back, we support this motion. I take it that should finish this motion. the private sector has the ability and capacity to operate the train. PROCEEDINGS Firstly, the private sector is SUSPENDED FOR TEA going to establish the needs of its intended market. Now the point MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable that I am trying to drive home is Members, good morning once that we will remember that not again. Let us proceed from where so long ago, it was stated that we were on Kgosi Mmualefhe’s Botswana was not a viable place motion. When we went for tea, to have three mobile telephone Kgosi Lempadi’s hand was up. operators in the market. However, KGOSI LEMPADI it has been proven otherwise (OKAVANGO REGION): since there are currently three Thank you Mr Chairman. I stand mobile operators in the market. here to support this motion. After The private sector raises its own 66 years of independence, I do money. Mr Chairman, those not think we should doubts that who run the transport industry we are incapable of running some can form a conglomerate. In businesses in our country. I do other words, they just pull their not think privatizing a train can resources together so that at the be as costly as airlines because end of the day no one will feel the latter has been privatized, strained to operate the train. Mr proving that it would not be Chairman, we shall remember impossible to do so with the train. that no so long ago, Mr Seabelo 139 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Engaging of Private Company to Operate Railway Line Services had some talks with the they still invest their capital. When Botswana Railways concerning a we take a company like Choppies passenger train that he wanted to for example, they are listed in the operate. He brought a proposal to Botswana Stock Exchange, they Government to run a route from have managed to open shops in Gaborone to St. Josephs College. countries like South Africa. The Mr Chairman, I take it that the question is where do they get role of Government is only to the money to do these things, facilitate policies and to allow the they raise capital in various business environment to strive, ways and our Government does we are going towards that. not have the capacity to do that. Mr Chairman, the mover of the Some are of the opinion that motion has brought in front of us there is recession Mr Chairman, a full research paper on Botswana and we have come a long way Railways which indicates that with the great depression. There it was running at loss, between was a great recession a long P25 and P30 million annually. time ago, even though we were When one takes a closer look at not yet born, the world economy this, they will realize that part was restructuring itself. Even of it is a result of management today, I take it that the world is failure because the system is too restructuring itself, from this big to manage. The private sector crisis; a new model will come out will come in, they will choose in the future. The free movement the most favourable market, and of people around SADC can be work on it. As I conclude Mr our first target in transporting and Chairman, I would like to point selling goods. Currently a plan to out that this motion is indeed construct a bridge to Mozambique proper; we are going to be a or Namibia is underway, we private sector led economy. This are not yet certain about which is the future of this country, and country it is between the two, but there is nothing we can do about that is another potential market it because times have changed. in which Batswana can be Thank you Mr Chairman. given an opportunity to explore. In conclusion Mr Chairman, KGOSI BOIDITSWE under the mining sector, some (SEROWE REGION): Thank companies are buying mines you Mr Chairman. I stand here to which the assumption is their support this motion. Government lifespan has come to an end, but has always made it clear that 140 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Engaging of Private Company to Operate Railway Line Services running a train is a constraint When our Government declared because the profit made is not that it is challenging to run a enough to service itself. So if the train, I was one of the people who Government cannot manage to gave in to that because we cannot operate a passenger train, then force matters even when we see it will be best to privatize it. By that it is not possible or worth it. so doing, it does not mean only a If our Government cannot afford few selected will be invited but to run the train and there are other it will be open for tender to the capable people out there who can public at large. Maybe people do it, then they should be given might not show any interest in that opportunity to so do. I do not taking over because trucks are want to believe that their prices giving Botswana Railways a will be unaffordable because tough competition. Most people prefer to use them instead of there are regulatory policies in trains because they are faster in place and if they are too high delivering goods. Transportation for the customers, then they will of goods from Johannesburg not use it and that will mean no is much faster but there might profit. With those words, I want be some people who may be to point out that this motion is interested in operating the train. proper. Correct me if I am wrong, The only challenge that may but there is a railway line to Sua arise is the requirements, that is, Pan, right? the terms and conditions that the HONOURABLE MEMBER: Government might expect from Where salt is found! the investor. If those terms and conditions are not favourable, KGOSI BOIDITSWE: Yes, then it will stay unexploited we do have people staying at because the Government will that place. If there is anybody not be able to run it. If there is who is interested in running the anybody who is showing interest train, I think the Government in operating the train, they will will highlight all the necessary have to agree to the terms and requirements and the challenges. conditions but they will have to be investigated to ascertain There was a certain man who if they have the resources and worked for Botswana Railways ability to run it. Currently we as a ticket collector, he used have a railway line that goes to keep some of the money through Selebi Phikwe and there collected from passengers who is a challenge of transport in that boarded the train in minor stops area. for himself and only submitted

141 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Engaging of Private Company to Operate Railway Line Services the money from major stops. over will not run at a lower price. Those are some of the challenges When the Government declared that they may be briefed about so that it will stop the passenger that they can make an informed train, the previous railways decision. administration did not ensure that the trains were serviced Mr Chairman, I do not wish to be or maintained while they are long but I am of the opinion that not operating. Lack of service the public should be given the and proper maintenance can be opportunity to try. I thank you strenuous because by the time Mr Chairman. they were serviced, it cost more MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you, since they were old. That is why Kgosi Boiditswe. I think we have Government opted for auction said enough and should now sale because servicing them was give the floor to the Honourable going to be costly but without Minister to respond to what recovery. All the trains across the has been said by Honourable world are financially backed up Members. by Government because if the fare was to be charged according MINISTER OF TRANSPORT to the market price, then it was AND COMMUNICATIONS going to be more expensive than (HON MOLEFHI): Thank you the bus fares. We have already Mr Chairman. Let me start off by highlighted that the train is very explaining that the reason why slow; it travels from six in the Botswana Railways is running evening to six in the morning to at a loss is because they are Francistown. For people who are still having debts carried over in a hurry, it would not be logical from last year. When we look at to use the train to travel and that the number and the quantity of would eventually diminish its goods that Botswana Railways is market. transporting, they are less than 2, 5 million tons per year. The price for a locomotive costs between P25 million and P30 It is indeed true that Botswana million. Just one carriage is Railways competes with trucks around P5 million to P7 million. and if the trucks are fast and We are currently doing a business yet on the other hand Botswana plan as one Honourable Member Railways offers lower prices has highlighted earlier on, to which are not utilized, then the establish the cost recovery in the private company that will take event that the train is brought 142 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Engaging of Private Company to Operate Railway Line Services back into operation so that it does Zimbabwe will profit more as not cause any financial constraint compared to us even though on the company. Our law only we are the ones who have spent allows Botswana Railways to more buying the railway wagons. have the license to run the train In any case, all those interested and maybe this was applicable in taking over can submit their back then and now when we look requests. Some Honourable at the population of the country Members have mentioned one and our businesses, one may business man who had shown wonder if there is a chance for a interest in running the passenger private company to compete with train, and this is the very same Botswana Railways. Maybe we business man who contributed should divide the responsibilities; to the decline in the usage of the have a company manning the train because he offered a lower manufacturing of trains and its price on bus fares such that railway lines and another one commuters stopped using the responsible for administration. train and went for a bus. Those are some of the possible alternatives that will be explored The good thing is that we as we continue to look into the currently have regulations law that is at hand now. Since in place that monitor the the law has not been amended, it competition between companies allows only Botswana Railways so any company that may try to to manage the trains, but if bypass the system will be brought there is a request from private before Competition Authority. If companies, then that law could the identified company offers be amended. One of the key lower prices than the standard factors that escalate the costs of market price which does not running a train is a cross country cater for cost recovery, then the railway line. For instance, there necessary steps will be taken are plans that are still underway against it. Through the assistance to transport coal from Morupule of World Bank, our Ministry will to Mozambique via Zimbabwe. conduct a research about the state The procedure is that, one of transport in Gaborone and should pay for distance covered surrounding areas like Lobatse, when transporting the coal. Kanye and Molepolole and even What happens is that locally the up to Malotwane and Rasesa. distance is shorter than the one This research will focus on how covered outside, which means best public transport could be

143 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Engaging of Private Company to Operate Railway Line Services improved and that includes buses, issues related to transport. As of minibuses and trains. We believe now, we are still carrying out a that after three years, this research research to establish the services will be a pointer in indentifying that will assist us to boost train the programme which will best services. help us to improve the current During amendment of the law, situation of public transport as we shall consider whether it will well as exporting and importing be profitable to split the services of goods. Currently, most weight offered by Botswana Railways, as is on mineral resources like the infrastructure company and a copper, coal and salt. As one of regulator. For example, when we the Honourable Members has talk about privatization, we had already mentioned, in some of Botswana Telecommunications the proposed villages that could as an example that split its have a railway line, it would services. Now it focuses more on be underutilized. For instance, telecommunications because it residents in Toteng do not have has beMobile. It cannot compete the capacity to run their own with beMobile, Mascom and railway line. They have a mine Orange when it is the retailer that is expected to run for 25 years selling units to them. We want and if it happens that they build to split these services such that the railway line and the mine gets we have the regulator and the shut, there will be no more funds infrastructure company. We to operate the railway line. Since shall come back to this House to we are a landlocked country, our present on the Transport Policy Government decided to come and we shall try to fit some of up with a Transport Hub, that is, the proposed services that have our country will be the centre at been suggested by Honourable which all goods shall be received Members in it. and distributed and this includes goods by train. I believe that after As Kgosi Boiditswe has already all that has been done, we shall highlighted, we all know that come back to this Honourable public transport is unreliable House to report on progress especially buses. Our aim at because I will be presenting the the department of transport is Transport Policy to the Cabinet to repossess all the licenses of next month. It will guide us on people who do not have buses how best we can empower and because our systems reflect that diversify our economy on other there are buses that are supposed 144 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Engaging of Private Company to Operate Railway Line Services to be transporting the public at carry 34 wagons each. From certain times, but they do not and here, it goes to Mafikeng, then the public waits at bus stops for a Johannesburg where their Soda very long time. Sometimes buses Ash market is based. Since the are hired by churches or sport railway line road is a bit steep clubs which means they cannot that side, the wagons need four transport the public. We are now locomotives and we hire them saying that this Transport Policy from South Africa. The coal will look into these issues so stays there for three to four days that we arrange buses that will before reaching the market since specifically be for special hiring. transporting our soda is not their No bus will be taken away priority. They charge 68 thebe per from its route, if that happens, ton per kilometer, which makes it should have a replacement the profit to be a bit low because so that the public will not be the charges are very high. We inconvenienced in any way. If are still negotiating with other it is a passenger train, Kanye Southern African Development residents could always connect Community (SADC) countries at Lobatse knowing that they to come up with the best possible will arrive on time at work and solution that will assist us in the same can apply to Mochudi transportation of exported and residents, they could connect imported goods by train. When at Pilane. Mr Chairman, people this program is completed, have often come to our offices it will help us to open many with business proposals that opportunities where possible. they have found a prospective Like I said earlier on, all those coal business in South Africa. interested will submit their In that case, the train will be proposals at Botswana Railways charging them 38 thebe per ton for consideration. I gave an kilometre and that charge will example of the tourist train that only bring losses so the only goes through our country from South Africa to Zimbabwe; this charge they can afford will be is an arrangement that has been 21 thebe. On the other hand, made. Those who are interested for Botswana Railways to make in running the train can submit profit it has to charge that 38 their requests so that we can thebe, which means that 21 thebe determine the type of license is impossible. Our salt which is they need while we await the being exported to South Africa is holistic amendment of the law. I transported by two trains which thank you Mr Chairman.

145 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Inclusion of Children of Unmarried Men Under Leave Travel Concession MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you this Honourable House and even Honourable Minister for that though I am not well today, I will explanation which I believe try my best. I stand here to request was broad and included various this Honourable House to support aspects which some were not me, if they deem it necessary, on even related to the passenger this motion which reads, ‘That train issue. It was solely to make this Honourable House requests Honourable Members have a Government to include children better understanding of issues of of unmarried men under leave local transport. travel concession’. Mr Chairman, I will try as much as I can to be KGOSI MMUALEFHE: Thank observant of time. The reason why you Mr Chairman. I appreciate I tabled this motion is because all the points that the Honourable our Government introduced Minister has raised and all the a law in 2009 which compels comments made by Honourable everyone who has a child to take Members. Moreover, I appreciate care and provide for them. It is a the fact that Honourable Minister law that attaches a parent to their has noted the issue of privatizing child, because even though there the train. are children who are born out of wed lock, they are still legally MR CHAIRMAN: As is the that individual’s children. Those procedure, this motion shall be children are entitled to every right concluded. As many are of the that other children are entitled to; opinion say ‘aye’, on the contrary they should not be denied that. say ‘no’. I think the ‘ayes’ have General Order 102 denies such it. children to enjoy these rights, but Question put and agreed to. when we look at the explanation in General Order 2.4, it states that INCLUSION OF CHILDREN all the public servants who are OF UNMARRIED MEN not married but have children; UNDER LEAVE TRAVEL then those children are their CONCESSION legal dependants. If the father has been taken to court and they Motion have not paid lobola to the child KGOSI KAHIKO III and yet they pay maintenance (GHANZI WEST REGION): at court, then it means the court Thank you Mr Chairman. This has legalized that child’s right to motion has taken long to come to benefit. Now what is hindering

146 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Inclusion of Children of Unmarried Men Under Leave Travel Concession that man the entitlement of leave KGOSI SEEMEKO travel concession? I request that (SPECIALLY ELECTED): this Honourable House take Thank you Mr Chairman. Ever them into consideration these since morning, I have not said reasons. Section 13 even states a word until now. The mover that a child has a right to know of the motion has stated that their biological father who in there will be those who will turn has to care for them. This support and those who will be enriches the reasons that I have against the motion and that is pointed out. true. Mr Chairman, to go against the motion does not mean you Mr Chairman, I did not wish to do not like the mover of the be long. Someone may be of the motion or you have something view that through this motion against them, it is just the level we are encouraging cohabitation of understanding towards the but we are not. From way back, motion. Mr Chairman, I do not children have been born out of support this motion because wed lock and there is no how when you talk of leave travel we can force someone who does concession which the mover not have the intention to marry of the motion is talking about, to do so. On the other hand, we I believe it is referring to a have people with children but family. By a family setup we are not married and we cannot deny referring to a situation where one those children their right to enjoy is responsible to that family and leave travel concession. With that stays with them. Mr Chairman, I have concluded my debate on this motion and If the proposal is that children await Honourable Members to should be given the right to support me. enjoy the concession then we MR CHAIRMAN: Thank will be opening a can of worms. you Kgosi Kahiko. When you My suspicion is that this is going started off, you stated that to appear like parents want to you will be fine with either a earn a living with the money negative or positive response, meant for children they do not but now you are contradicting even care for, I cannot advocate your statement, you are asking for that. This motion is capable Honourable Members to support of causing conflicts because you. Honourable Members, the some of the children have their floor is open for the debate of this biological parents who separated motion, whether for or against it. a long time ago and the mother 147 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Inclusion of Children of Unmarried Men Under Leave Travel Concession ended up getting married to KGOSI MACHILIDZA someone else. Now the question (BOTETI REGION): Thank is, after taking the money, where you Mr Chairman. When I first will the man take the money to? read this motion, I was in a bit The truth is that, the man will of dilemma because I did not spend the money on the current want to support it, but then wife and not the child. If the again, the mover had not yet mother of the child realizes that tabled it. But after reading it, the father is spending the money I had a better understanding elsewhere, they are going to and decided to support it. The demand it and this will definitely reasons that have been laid out to cause conflicts. support it are very real because Mr Chairman, I do not know our Government advocates what prompted the mover of the for responsibility of parents to motion to table it. I am of the view their children. Furthermore, that it is not yet time for us to do this motion will drive people to that. As I conclude Mr Chairman, take responsibility because for the mover of the motion stated starters, no man would want to that by allowing this it will show claim the children they did not the responsibility of the father by father just so that they could claiming the rights of the child. receive leave travel concession Of course it is true, but that child money. In some instances, it may did not ask to be brought into this happen that the mother of the world, instead, the father is the child passes on, then the father one who decided to have a child, marries another woman, the father still has the responsibility therefore it is their responsibility to take care of that child. to take care of them. Taking care of that child does not imply The issue that the father will not using the child by any means just spend the money on the child because you fathered the child. does not hold water because We should not confuse issues. people have used that money That is how responsibility ought before and it was not on the to be. Mr Chairman that is how concerned child. I do have I understand this motion and this children and I have once used that time around, the Honourable money to buy petrol and my wife Member has derailed indeed. demanded it back. We cannot Thank you for the opportunity hide behind the issue that the you gave me to express my money will not be spent properly opinion. when our Government is trying 148 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Inclusion of Children of Unmarried Men Under Leave Travel Concession to instil some responsibility. own child unless they are denied On the other hand, if a parent is the right to be part of their lives ignorant of their responsibility but that too is not acceptable. towards their children, action As a parent, one has to take care can be taken to compel them to of their child, because nobody be responsible. If the money is would want another person to not given to the rightful person, take responsibility of their child. then it shall be known and So if the parents break up, and maybe our Government might the man marries another woman, improvise a system whereby the that wife should be informed money is given to the beneficiary about the child so that there will via post office. There will be be no conflicts that may arise in no contradiction in this because terms of taking care of the child. there is no how Government can I think it will be good for men contradict itself on a law which to be given the money for leave has been implemented. Kgosi travel concession. I thank you Seemeko has said that having Mr Chairman. a child as a beneficiary while KGOSI SEBOKO (BALETE): not married to the mother could Thank you Mr Chairman. I break the marriage, it is almost impossible to even think about wanted to comment on the motion it. that is before us. When I read it, according to my understanding, The other day we were I thought it is the money that a advocating for a law which parent is entitled to when they requests Government to include go on leave and for travelling blood groups in birth certificates with the family because, the and some were of the opinion employee claims for the spouse that it could break families. and the children. I have never This shows that men always seen anything stating that it is have some hidden agenda, this maintenance money. I will differ should be done properly so that a bit with those who concur with people can be responsible. It this motion and let us not assume should not be done for the sake that if one does not support the of benefits. With those words, motion it is because they have I do not see any problem with something against the mover of this motion because it will even motion. Parents may choose a encourage unmarried men and place where they can travel to, so women to get married. There is in that case if the child is under no how a man could deny their the care of the mother, that child 149 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Inclusion of Children of Unmarried Men Under Leave Travel Concession will be entitled to that money. looks like we are going to take Again there is a provision in foreign belief systems and use the Constitution of Botswana them. We should rather advocate which allows the father of a child for legal adoption of children by to legally adopt a child if they their fathers if they want their want the child to be part of his children to be beneficiaries. beneficiaries and in that way too With those words, I disagree the father will able to claim the with this motion. I thank you Mr rights of that child. We should not Chairman. in any way confuse issues here because it is our responsibility KGOSI POTSOENG (NGAMI as parents to provide for our REGION): Thank you Mr children. We should not hide behind the schemes that have Chairman. This motion would been provided as a way of easing be good but the mover left out our burdens. some aspects; he did not state if the concerned children will be I did not want to be long on included in the trip or not when this issue, because the law the parent takes the leave travel already covers that. If a father concession money. That is why I wants to include the child am of the view that this motion under beneficiaries, they could has got some loopholes. The sole always adopt that child legally purpose of this money is for the so that when the father applies family to go out for a holiday. for leave concession, the child The mover of the motion did not will be included too. Let us be indicate whether the employee encouraged to be responsible upon taking the money will for our children and take over invite the children who were from where Government has born out the marriage to come left off and include our names along with the new family. That in our children’s certificates is where I have a problem. I share even though it is something that the same sentiments with Kgosi we have differed on before. We Mosadi, that the father should know that even though fathers adopt the child legally so that are included in these certificates, when they take the leave travel somehow it contradicts our concession, then the child will culture because according to be included too. This child will culture, if the mother is not yet be known in that family because married to the father, that child they will be adopted and it will belongs to the mother’s side. It be easier to maintain that child 150 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Inclusion of Children of Unmarried Men Under Leave Travel Concession rather than when they are not If the legal adoption happens, the part of the family. I thank you Mr mother cannot be forced to take Chairman. leave travel concession for that child because the father will be KGOSI TOTO II fully responsible. I think that is (KGALAGADI SOUTH): one thing that could be taken into Thank you Mr Chairman. I consideration. Mr Chairman, stand here to support this motion even though I might be out of Mr Chairman. This motion is line, I would like to add weight straight forward, it states that to this motion. We all know that Government should not be one children can get sick or even sided but should rather favour die, so maybe employees can all sides, both men and women. be given an advance payment to We understand that after the assist them during pressing times Children’s Act was changed, like those. These are related there were some changes that issues. With those few words Mr compelled parents to maintain Chairman, I support this motion. their children. The mover of I thank you. the motion has already touched on the other one; a parent can pay for a child’s maintenance at KGOSI LEMPADI Customary Court or Magistrate (OKAVANGO REGION): Court. The other issue is that, Thank you Mr Chairman. There is every child is entitled to their no how I can include a child who parent’s benefits when the parent uses a different surname from passes on, the Alexander Forbes mine in a leave travel concession pension fund has that provision. form. I can only include a Some Honourable Members have child whom we share the same suggested that children born out surname even if they were born of wedlock should be adopted out wedlock. We have children by their fathers in case they do and they use our surnames and not marry their mothers. In cases we are free to travel with them where the mother gets married to if we so wish. Even those who another man, are we saying, the have been born out of wedlock father can take that child from can always go as long as they the mother? We know that when use my surname because they are a mother gets married, she goes part of the family. Just as the law with her children. The man whom permits for a parent to maintain she gets married to is the one the child, I do not see any harm who can adopt the child legally. in including them in leave travel

151 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Inclusion of Children of Unmarried Men Under Leave Travel Concession concession. We do not want to your permission Mr Chairman repeat what other Honourable reads, “Children means unless Members have already said, but I expressly stated otherwise, the support this motion, I thank you children of an officer who are Mr Chairman. unmarried, legally dependent on the officer and under the age of MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI 21 and includes step children and GABORONE): I believe a lot legally adopted children.” The has been said by Honourable most important point here is the Members about this motion, aspect of ‘legally dependent’ on I shall now hand over to the the side of the father. When it Honourable Minister to respond. comes to this, we look at what ACTING MINISTER the law says about the child, FOR PRESIDENTIAL whether in the marriage or not. AFFAIRS AND PUBLIC Mr Chairman, you will note that ADMINISTRATION (HON. it includes even the unmarried MATLHABAPHIRI): I officer since he is still the thank you Mr Chairman and father of the child. Therefore, Honourable Members for the as the General Orders state, that debate. As the mover of the child is entitled to leave travel concession. The motion that has motion has already stated, he been tabled by Kgosi is already has talked about Children’s Act provided for in the law. which advocates for children to have both parents, whether The other point that Honourable married or not. Even if the Members have raised is whether father ends up marrying another that money is meant for travelling woman, that child still remains only. The answer is no. Leave theirs. Kgosi has talked about Travel concession Mr Chairman the General Orders which cover is under General Order 107 and aspects of the many laws that it states that, “Each claim must exist in our country and even if be made at least two years after the Children’s Act was introduced the last claim.” Note, it says after the General Orders, it is claim only “and officers are not still a law that compels a parent required to proceed on leave in to take full responsibility of order to claim the Leave Travel the child whether born in the Concession”. This means, the marriage or out of wedlock. officer who is the parent can Secondly, the General Order 2.4 claim every two years unless the that Kgosi has quoted, through child is less than seven years or 152 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Inclusion of Children of Unmarried Men Under Leave Travel Concession above 21 years of age. They can leave travel concession. This is only claim for those between because it might not necessarily seven and 21 years old and that be for that only but other benefits includes those in marriage or born as well since it is their child. out of wedlock if they are legally This means that if the officer dependent on him. Therefore has this child under their care as Children’s Act obviously legally a beneficiary, then it means this empowers fathers to take care child is legally dependent on of their children regardless of them and according to General their relationship status with Orders; there is no how they can the mothers. This implies that be excluded. Mr Chairman, my children in this kind of situations advice to the mover of the motion are covered Mr Chairman. is that he should withdraw this That is why I am of the opinion motion because he is requesting that this motion was not necessary for something that is already in looking at the provisions that are place. There are examples and already in place. If it was tabled maybe it will be repetition to before we had the Children’s mention them. Mr Chairman, I Act, then it would have been therefore move that this motion understandable because it be withdrawn because we will would have shown that there is be agreeing on something which a concern. Now we have an act already exists. I thank you Mr which gives every parent the Chairman. right to maintain their children KGOSI KAHIKO III: whether married or not. I suspect Thank you Mr Chairman and that Kgosi was looking at the Honourable Minister. The old General Orders because he General Order that I quoted is the quoted a different General order current one. I did not say General to mine. He quoted General Order 102. I would like to thank Order 102 whereas I quoted Honourable Members who General Order 107. Maybe it made their contributions on this could just mean that we were motion even though some have not on the same page. The main managed to evade it by leaving issue here is that children can be beforehand… adopted legally including the step children. According to General KGOSI LOTLAMORENG II Orders, an officer is supposed to (BAROLONG): Mr Chairman, indicate that they have children through your permission, I would under their care before they claim request that we be careful of the 153 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Inclusion of Children of Unmarried Men Under Leave Travel Concession words we use in this Honourable should be given that money then House. I say this because these communication should be made deliberations will be recorded to the departments to ensure that for the production of the official the deserving officers get what is report. We even have the Media due to them. Some Honourable present in this Honourable Members were of the view that House. As an Honourable I should indicate whether the Member addressing other elderly officer would have adopted the children or not. Honourable Honourable Members here, it Members, the officers do not is not permissible to make such have to go to such lengths to get assumptions. I am just wondering the money; it is upon us in this how people will view us after House to advocate for them. One learning that we evade certain Honourable Member said that a things during the sitting. I would father who takes care of his child, humbly request us to be more the child’s mother is married to careful Mr Chairman. I thank another man and she can cause you Mr Chairman. a conflict in the family. There is no how that can cause a conflict KGOSI KAHIKO III: Point because the wife should know well taken Mr Chairman. It will that he has a child and he has only be my words that will be to take care of that child. That quoted as negative while others cannot cause a conflict unless are not mentioned. Nevertheless, we want to create a situation I withdraw my words. out of nothing. The Honourable Minister has said it all; there MR CHAIRMAN (KGOSI is no need to reiterate on what GABORONE): That means he has already said. I would Kgosi Kahiko has withdrawn his like to request the Honourable words and I believe they will not Minister to urge public servants be recorded in our official report. to serve Batswana. I thank you You may proceed. Mr Chairman and Honourable KGOSI KAHIKO III: Mr Minister. Chairman, let me say that I have understood the Honourable MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Minister and I am speaking Kgosi Kahiko was summarizing from experience. The reason on his motion which the why I have tabled this motion Honourable Minister has said is because people are denied is already there in the law and that money. If the Honourable as is the procedure it shall be Minister confirms that such men concluded. 154 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Inclusion of Children of Unmarried Men Under Leave Travel Concession Question put and the House in Division.

The House in Division; the House was divided as follows:

HONOURABLE MEMBER YES NO ABSTAIN ABSENT

Kgosi Boiditswe √ Kgosi Esterhuizen √ Kgosi Gaborone Kgosi Gaoonwe √ Kgosi Garebakwena √ Kgosi Kahiko III √ Kgosi Kgamane √ Kgosi Kgari III √ Kgosi Lempadi √ Kgosi Lotlamoreng II √ Kgosi Machilidza √ Kgosi Malema √ Kgosi Malope II √ Kgosi Masunga √ Kgosi Mmualefhe √ Kgosi Moeti II √ Kgosi Monnaathebe √ Kgosi Montshiwa √ Kgosi Moremi √ Kgosi Moroka √ Kgosi Moseki √ Kgosi Ndzonga √ Kgosi Ramokone √ Kgosi Ramokwena √ Kgosi Potsoeng √ Kgosi Seboko √ Kgosi Seeletso √ Kgosi Seemeko √ Kgosi Sekwenyane √ Kgosi Sinvula √ Kgosi Telekelo √

155 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Inclusion of Children of Unmarried Men Under Leave Travel Concession

Kgosi Tshipe √ Kgosi Toto II √ Kgosi Xao √ Total 12 16 1 4 Members’ Total 33 The Ayes are 12; No’s 16 and 1 abstained. Others are absent, so that means the No’s have it, the No’s have it.

Question put and negated

COMPUTERISED VOTERS ROLL

Motion

KGOSI MASUNGA (NORTH EAST REGION): Thank you Mr Chairman. I am not feeling well, so I am not sure whether I should proceed with this motion or not. In any case I defer the motion to the next House sitting. Thank you Honourable Minister for your presence. I thank you.

Motion – deferred.

MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable Members Kgosi has deferred his motion and with that we have come to the end of the 9th Meeting of the 2nd Ntlo Ya Dikgosi. Today’s business in the Order Paper ends here. We have been together for the past two weeks. The first week was briefings then House business comprising of questions and motions on the second week. In conclusion, I believe that from the briefings that we have had, it has shown that there are a lot of issues that need to be addressed in our various regions. One of the key issues that we discussed last week which will need our input and was even discussed this morning on the radio is that of ‘Re a nyalana Project’. It talks about the issue of marriage, the state of families and bogadi in this country. There was a motion once tabled in this Honourable House requesting for standardization of bogadi and it was left hanging. I know and understand that even then, there was mixed feelings about the issue of bogadi. The million dollar question is whether bogadi is really a barrier or people are just using it as an excuse not to get married. I believe issues of families, marriage and lobola are some of the issues that we will share with our communities as we go back to 156 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Inclusion of Children of Unmarried Men Under Leave Travel Concession our regions. Other issues relate Honourable House and this has our contribution towards Vision been a challenge even in the 2016. We were informed that the past. I would like to appeal to public knowledge about Vision the Honourable Minister that 2016 is around 55 per cent but in future, there should be a the aim is to reach 70 per cent. communication made well in time so that it does not affect our Other issues are those of our business here in the House. The health in general and our role in other challenge that we have is advocacy for healthy lifestyles in the pending Rules of Procedure. our country. We were also briefed I believe we all realized that about the 2011 Population Census. there are gaps when it comes I believe after looking at how the to administration of this House population has increased, the and as we have already said Government will be in a position last week, it is imperative that to identify the challenges that we discuss this so that we can come along with it and even the close those gaps. I would like to kind of infrastructure needed. I believe that between now and the believe these are issues that we next meeting, we will be able to will share with our communities act on the agreement that we had and get feedbacks. One of the key the other day. The committee will issues that will need feedback is be able to give this Honourable the one that concerns the Draft House feedback with the hope National Land Policy. There is that we shall be able to complete still ample time for consultations what we have long started in a to be conducted to establish what short period of time. We shall it entails and how it will affect have the new approved Rules of Batswana’s lives in general. Procedure which we shall be able We have various presentations to implement as per the proposal. and we shall have time to read As I conclude, I would like to them and if need be, we shall remind Honourable Members discuss them. I believe that about our Manyana project which we have done very well from we kick started on Wednesday. the past week up until today, Our aim is to have it completed even though we had some few by the next sitting so that we can challenges. Since the Honourable hand it over. It will be one of our Minister is here, let me say one greatest achievements for this of the challenges is that of poor year. I believe that our last sitting attendance by Ministers in this of the year shall be marked by

157 Friday 22nd June, 2012 Inclusion of Children of Unmarried Men Under Leave Travel Concession a lot of events which will sum first into this Honourable House up what we wanted to achieve and the belief is that we shall this year. We will look forward continue to conform to them. to to do the same thing in the Since her supervisor, Ms Thebe coming year. We need to do a self is here, she will pass on our well introspection to come up with a wishes in her future endeavours. way to address the challenges According to the Rules of that we continue to identify. They Procedure of this House, it will be a guide to the kind of self should officially be adjourned introspection we need concerning but before I do that, may I issues of this House and Bogosi request Honourable Members to at large. When the time comes, meet again at 2:00 p.m. so that we shall be able to address them we wrap up some issues before accordingly. Last but not least, we disperse for weekend. Those following the update that we were who are not Members of this given the other day, on behalf of House and our officers will be this Honourable House, I would excused from that meeting. We like to officially announce and are not chasing anyone because extend our gratitude to one of our sometimes people have this officers Ms Gaobotse who will perception that Ntlo Ya Dikgosi soon be retiring. I believe that chases people away. We will only this will be her last sitting with be discussing in-house issues. us and I would like to thank and With those words, this House is appreciate her for the profound accordingly adjourned, sine die. performance she has executed upon serving this Honourable ADJOURNMENT House. She has served in The House accordingly adjourned this House even in the most at 12:26 p.m. sine die. challenging times when we did not have proper administration which we now have. When we go down the memory lane, she has truly done most of the work and she even trained the new officers about the administration of this House. Ntlo Ya Dikgosi has a culture and principles of administration and that has been established by those who came

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