Public Hearing Transcript 9Th March 2017
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Day 8 IICSA Inquiry - Child Migration Programmes case study public hearing transcript 9 March 2017 1 Thursday, 9 March 2017 1 understanding, therefore, of the experience of former 2 (10.30 am) 2 child migrants. So those are the topics that we hope to 3 Welcome remarks by THE CHAIR 3 address today. 4 THE CHAIR: Good morning. As before, for the benefit of 4 As you know, Dr Humphreys, the intention is that you 5 those not present on previous days, I will introduce 5 will return in the second phase of these hearings to 6 ourselves here. I am Alexis Jay. I am Chair of 6 deal with some more detailed matters that you have also 7 the Independent Inquiry Into Child Sexual Abuse. I am 7 dealt with in your statement? 8 sitting today with the other panel members of 8 A. Absolutely. 9 the inquiry: Ivor Frank, Professor Sir Malcolm Evans and 9 Q. Can I begin with some of your qualifications and 10 Drusilla Sharpling. 10 professional background. Is this right, that you have 11 This is Day 8 of the first substantive hearing of 11 been a social worker throughout most of your working 12 the case study into child migration programmes, which is 12 life? 13 part of the inquiry's investigation into protection of 13 A. That's correct. 14 children outside the UK. 14 Q. And that, for many years, you worked in child protection 15 Today, the inquiry will hear witness evidence from 15 in Nottingham, having qualified there at the university 16 Margaret Humphreys, the director of 16 in 1978; is that correct? 17 the Child Migrants Trust, and also from another 17 A. That's correct. 18 individual witness. 18 Q. Is this a fair summary of how it was that you came to be 19 Ms Hill, are there any issues that you wish to take 19 involved in these issues, that because you have been 20 up before we start? 20 involved for many years in removing children from their 21 Housekeeping 21 biological families, you have, for a long time, had 22 MS HILL: Good morning, Chair. Yes, just two brief issues, 22 a particular interest in the issue of identity; is that 23 please, again, in relation to de-ciphering. As you 23 right? 24 know, this is an ongoing process in which the inquiry is 24 A. That's correct, yes. 25 engaged. I can confirm now on the record that the 25 Q. And that, with that particular interest in mind, that Page 1 Page 3 1 cipher for F21 -- I believe I have already confirmed 1 led to you, I think, setting up the Triangle Group; is 2 this -- has been removed. That was Mr Allen. In 2 that right? 3 relation to the evidence of A14 that was given, we can 3 A. That's correct. 4 now correct, if you like, that evidence. 4 Q. Just perhaps help us understand, for those who perhaps 5 Secondly, in relation to F4, we can confirm that 5 can't follow, what the triangle you are talking about 6 that is Leo McCurran, and so when the evidence of 6 with that name is in mind? 7 John Francis Hanley was read by my learned friend 7 A. That relates, of course, to post-adoption issues with 8 Ms O'Byrne, "F4" can now be replaced with 8 children who have been in care and then in permanent 9 "Leo McCurran". That name may well have come up in 9 care. But, look, could I just say something before 10 other evidence. 10 I give my evidence? I think just for me to be here and 11 Similarly, we have removed a cipher for F218, which 11 to talk after the evidence that we have heard over the 12 is Mr Rogers, but that will come up in the live evidence 12 last seven days, I think I would just like to say 13 you hear by video this afternoon. So that is the only 13 something regarding child migrants, and I am very happy, 14 preliminary matter, Chair. 14 as you know, to answer anything. 15 THE CHAIR: Thank you, Ms Hill. Would you now proceed? 15 But to follow the testimony of the child migrants 16 MS HILL: I will call, then, please, Dr Margaret Humphreys. 16 over the last seven or eight days I find incredibly 17 DR MARGARET HUMPHREYS (sworn) 17 daunting. Their painful evidence was given to all of us 18 Questions by MS HILL 18 with such sincerity and dignity, and it will be 19 MS HILL: Good morning, Dr Humphreys. As you know, I ask 19 a challenge for me to do justice to that, of course. 20 questions on behalf of the inquiry. The inquiry has 20 But of all others, and I have said this many times, 21 a very detailed statement from you, which the panel 21 it is their voices which need to be heard. Without 22 have, and, as you know, my hope today is to ask you some 22 doubt, this is the most catastrophic child sexual abuse 23 questions about your background, your understanding of 23 legacy within our living memory. Thank you for letting 24 the history of child migration, but, in particular, your 24 me say that. I didn't think that I could move into any 25 work with the Child Migrants Trust and your 25 evidence without saying how difficult it is to follow Page 2 Page 4 1 (Pages 1 to 4) DTI www.DTIGlobal.com 8th Floor, 165 Fleet Street (+44)207 4041400 London EC4A 2DY Day 8 IICSA Inquiry - Child Migration Programmes case study public hearing transcript 9 March 2017 1 the evidence of the child migrants. Thank you. 1 of child migration? 2 Q. Of course. 2 A. Correct. 3 A. So to go back to your question -- 3 Q. One of the earliest projects, if you like, that was the 4 Q. Yes, of course. To be fair, Dr Humphreys, of course, 4 outcome of this research work was some very widely 5 the panel and the Chair have heard evidence from some 5 publicised articles in the Observer newspaper, I think 6 former child migrants, but the hope is that, with your 6 in 1987? 7 experience and your background, you can give them 7 A. Mmm. 8 a slightly broader picture, because not everybody's 8 Q. Then a Granada Television documentary in 1989, "Lost 9 voice has been heard in these proceedings. 9 Children of the Empire"? 10 A. Absolutely. I quite understand that. So if I can go 10 A. That's correct. 11 back to the point you have said, my interest came from 11 Q. That, in fact, won an award in 1990? 12 working with children in care, particularly those 12 A. That's correct. 13 children who were going into permanent care, and, you 13 Q. We will come, perhaps, to look at some of the detail of 14 know, social workers have to make some very difficult 14 that in due course. 15 decisions on behalf of children, and one of those 15 I don't know, Chair, if you wish to turn up -- you 16 decisions is how are these children, when they are 16 can see, if you wish, the Observer articles. We perhaps 17 adults, going to feel about the decisions that have been 17 could bring those up on the screen. 18 made for them as children. 18 I think, is this right, Dr Humphreys, they would 19 So identity and planning for the future. Children 19 perhaps be the first time that this issue came to 20 aren't always children, they become adults and have 20 national attention, in terms of the media? 21 lifecycles, like everyone else, to deal with. The issue 21 A. Yes, it was. I think that was the first real exposure 22 of identity I think is very crucial for children in 22 of child migration in terms of its personal consequences 23 care, and that is, in a sense, what led me to do -- to 23 for child migrants and their families. So, yes, it was. 24 be interested in identity issues. 24 Q. Chair, I think these articles are at tab 4 of your 25 Q. Is this right, that on a practical level, it was in the 25 bundle. But can I pull up CMT000365_001. Page 5 Page 7 1 course of that sort of work that you were approached by 1 We see there, do we, Dr Humphreys, I think 2 somebody -- I think in 1986, is it? -- who said that she 2 a two-part article. It looks to be actually in the 3 had been in care in Nottingham but she understood that 3 Observer Review. This is also called "Lost Children of 4 she'd been shipped to Australia as a 4-year-old child? 4 the Empire"? 5 A. That's correct. 5 A. That's correct, yes. 6 Q. She'd been told that her parents were dead but asked you 6 Q. We can see, I think, if we scroll down, that this gives 7 for help in finding her family? 7 a range of details about what is known at that point 8 A. That's correct. 8 about child migration, with some personal stories in it, 9 Q. We will come perhaps to look at the detail of the way in 9 personal accounts in it, and if we scroll down to page 3 10 which the Child Migrants Trust became established, but 10 of that, please, CMT000365_003, we can see, I think, the 11 is this right, just by way of a summary, so that the 11 second part of that article.