Day 8 IICSA Inquiry - Child Migration Programmes case study public hearing transcript 9 March 2017

1 Thursday, 9 March 2017 1 understanding, therefore, of the experience of former 2 (10.30 am) 2 child migrants. So those are the topics that we hope to 3 Welcome remarks by THE CHAIR 3 address today. 4 THE CHAIR: Good morning. As before, for the benefit of 4 As you know, Dr Humphreys, the intention is that you 5 those not present on previous days, I will introduce 5 will return in the second phase of these hearings to 6 ourselves here. I am Alexis Jay. I am Chair of 6 deal with some more detailed matters that you have also 7 the Independent Inquiry Into Child Sexual Abuse. I am 7 dealt with in your statement? 8 sitting today with the other panel members of 8 A. Absolutely. 9 the inquiry: Ivor Frank, Professor Sir Malcolm Evans and 9 Q. Can I begin with some of your qualifications and 10 Drusilla Sharpling. 10 professional background. Is this right, that you have 11 This is Day 8 of the first substantive hearing of 11 been a social worker throughout most of your working 12 the case study into child migration programmes, which is 12 life? 13 part of the inquiry's investigation into protection of 13 A. That's correct. 14 children outside the UK. 14 Q. And that, for many years, you worked in child protection 15 Today, the inquiry will hear witness evidence from 15 in Nottingham, having qualified there at the university 16 Margaret Humphreys, the director of 16 in 1978; is that correct? 17 the Child Migrants Trust, and also from another 17 A. That's correct. 18 individual witness. 18 Q. Is this a fair summary of how it was that you came to be 19 Ms Hill, are there any issues that you wish to take 19 involved in these issues, that because you have been 20 up before we start? 20 involved for many years in removing children from their 21 Housekeeping 21 biological families, you have, for a long time, had 22 MS HILL: Good morning, Chair. Yes, just two brief issues, 22 a particular interest in the issue of identity; is that 23 please, again, in relation to de-ciphering. As you 23 right? 24 know, this is an ongoing process in which the inquiry is 24 A. That's correct, yes. 25 engaged. I can confirm now on the record that the 25 Q. And that, with that particular interest in mind, that

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1 cipher for F21 -- I believe I have already confirmed 1 led to you, I think, setting up the Triangle Group; is 2 this -- has been removed. That was Mr Allen. In 2 that right? 3 relation to the evidence of A14 that was given, we can 3 A. That's correct. 4 now correct, if you like, that evidence. 4 Q. Just perhaps help us understand, for those who perhaps 5 Secondly, in relation to F4, we can confirm that 5 can't follow, what the triangle you are talking about 6 that is Leo McCurran, and so when the evidence of 6 with that name is in mind? 7 John Francis Hanley was read by my learned friend 7 A. That relates, of course, to post-adoption issues with 8 Ms O'Byrne, "F4" can now be replaced with 8 children who have been in care and then in permanent 9 "Leo McCurran". That name may well have come up in 9 care. But, look, could I just say something before 10 other evidence. 10 I give my evidence? I think just for me to be here and 11 Similarly, we have removed a cipher for F218, which 11 to talk after the evidence that we have heard over the 12 is Mr Rogers, but that will come up in the live evidence 12 last seven days, I think I would just like to say 13 you hear by video this afternoon. So that is the only 13 something regarding child migrants, and I am very happy, 14 preliminary matter, Chair. 14 as you know, to answer anything. 15 THE CHAIR: Thank you, Ms Hill. Would you now proceed? 15 But to follow the testimony of the child migrants 16 MS HILL: I will call, then, please, Dr Margaret Humphreys. 16 over the last seven or eight days I find incredibly 17 DR MARGARET HUMPHREYS (sworn) 17 daunting. Their painful evidence was given to all of us 18 Questions by MS HILL 18 with such sincerity and dignity, and it will be 19 MS HILL: Good morning, Dr Humphreys. As you know, I ask 19 a challenge for me to do justice to that, of course. 20 questions on behalf of the inquiry. The inquiry has 20 But of all others, and I have said this many times, 21 a very detailed statement from you, which the panel 21 it is their voices which need to be heard. Without 22 have, and, as you know, my hope today is to ask you some 22 doubt, this is the most catastrophic child sexual abuse 23 questions about your background, your understanding of 23 legacy within our living memory. Thank you for letting 24 the history of child migration, but, in particular, your 24 me say that. I didn't think that I could move into any 25 work with the Child Migrants Trust and your 25 evidence without saying how difficult it is to follow

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1 the evidence of the child migrants. Thank you. 1 of child migration? 2 Q. Of course. 2 A. Correct. 3 A. So to go back to your question -- 3 Q. One of the earliest projects, if you like, that was the 4 Q. Yes, of course. To be fair, Dr Humphreys, of course, 4 outcome of this research work was some very widely 5 the panel and the Chair have heard evidence from some 5 publicised articles in the Observer newspaper, I think 6 former child migrants, but the hope is that, with your 6 in 1987? 7 experience and your background, you can give them 7 A. Mmm. 8 a slightly broader picture, because not everybody's 8 Q. Then a Granada Television documentary in 1989, "Lost 9 voice has been heard in these proceedings. 9 Children of the Empire"? 10 A. Absolutely. I quite understand that. So if I can go 10 A. That's correct. 11 back to the point you have said, my interest came from 11 Q. That, in fact, won an award in 1990? 12 working with children in care, particularly those 12 A. That's correct. 13 children who were going into permanent care, and, you 13 Q. We will come, perhaps, to look at some of the detail of 14 know, social workers have to make some very difficult 14 that in due course. 15 decisions on behalf of children, and one of those 15 I don't know, Chair, if you wish to turn up -- you 16 decisions is how are these children, when they are 16 can see, if you wish, the Observer articles. We perhaps 17 adults, going to feel about the decisions that have been 17 could bring those up on the screen. 18 made for them as children. 18 I think, is this right, Dr Humphreys, they would 19 So identity and planning for the future. Children 19 perhaps be the first time that this issue came to 20 aren't always children, they become adults and have 20 national attention, in terms of the media? 21 lifecycles, like everyone else, to deal with. The issue 21 A. Yes, it was. I think that was the first real exposure 22 of identity I think is very crucial for children in 22 of child migration in terms of its personal consequences 23 care, and that is, in a sense, what led me to do -- to 23 for child migrants and their families. So, yes, it was. 24 be interested in identity issues. 24 Q. Chair, I think these articles are at tab 4 of your 25 Q. Is this right, that on a practical level, it was in the 25 bundle. But can I pull up CMT000365_001.

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1 course of that sort of work that you were approached by 1 We see there, do we, Dr Humphreys, I think 2 somebody -- I think in 1986, is it? -- who said that she 2 a two-part article. It looks to be actually in the 3 had been in care in Nottingham but she understood that 3 Observer Review. This is also called "Lost Children of 4 she'd been shipped to Australia as a 4-year-old child? 4 the Empire"? 5 A. That's correct. 5 A. That's correct, yes. 6 Q. She'd been told that her parents were dead but asked you 6 Q. We can see, I think, if we scroll down, that this gives 7 for help in finding her family? 7 a range of details about what is known at that point 8 A. That's correct. 8 about child migration, with some personal stories in it, 9 Q. We will come perhaps to look at the detail of the way in 9 personal accounts in it, and if we scroll down to page 3 10 which the Child Migrants Trust became established, but 10 of that, please, CMT000365_003, we can see, I think, the 11 is this right, just by way of a summary, so that the 11 second part of that article. We can see it is July 1987 12 chair and panel have a clear idea, the 12 in the Observer Review and I think we see a picture of 13 Child Migrants Trust was established I think in 1987; is 13 you if we scroll down a little bit, in the middle of 14 that right? 14 that? 15 A. That's correct. 15 A. Yes, a much younger picture. 16 Q. You have spent lengthy periods of time since then in 16 Q. This, I think, begins to set out not only some of 17 Australia and continue to go on a regular basis? 17 the histories of child migrants, some of the background, 18 A. For the past 30 years, yes. It is a long commute to 18 but also some of the work that you were beginning to do 19 work. 19 by that point? 20 Q. But you have, I think, is this right, also visited 20 A. That's right. 21 Canada, New Zealand and Zimbabwe, albeit for briefer 21 Q. Is that right? 22 periods? 22 A. Yes. 23 A. That's correct. 23 Q. Thank you. 24 Q. Initially, your visits to those countries were in the 24 A. That is the very early days and the very first time 25 manner of research, to try to understand the phenomenon 25 I think, that we started to really begin to comprehend

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1 the enormity of the child migration and its -- as I have 1 before. She ran to Lime Street Station. She told me 2 said, the consequences for the many, many people, 2 she got to the station and ran to the platform and saw 3 individuals and families. This was the first time. 3 the children on the train. She said as the train pulled 4 Q. We will come to look at, in due course, a little bit 4 out, she was screaming and crying, "Get the children 5 more about the functions of the Child Migrants Trust, 5 off, get the children off. Stop the train". Her boy 6 but is this right, that now you have offices in 6 put his face to the window and shouted, "I'll never 7 Nottingham, in Perth and in Melbourne? Is that right? 7 forget you, mam. I'll never forget you". 8 A. That's correct. Yes, that's right. 8 Over that period of time, many child migrants had 9 Q. Perhaps, can we help the panel and Chair understand 9 been in care in that children's home in Liverpool, and 10 a little bit more about the detail of how you came to be 10 they individually, independently, told me the day they 11 involved in this work? You have described being 11 left and would say to me, "And I saw this woman. I saw 12 contacted by one person, who said that she understood 12 this woman, and she ran down the station and she was 13 she had been migrated to Australia. But is this 13 screaming, 'Get the children off, get the children 14 right -- I am at paragraph 6 of your witness 14 off'". 15 statement -- that you have given there an account of 15 Q. Is this right, that her son had also told you how, after 16 meeting many years ago, I think, with a mother of 16 being separated from his mum, he had sat under a tree 17 a former child migrant that seems to summarise the sort 17 for two years every day while he was told that he was an 18 of encounters that you have had with people when you 18 orphan and he had no mother, but he knew that that was 19 have met them for the first time? 19 wrong? 20 A. I think that's quite a good example of families and 20 A. Absolutely. 21 mothers of child migrants. This was 20 years ago, 21 Q. So you saw both sides of the same experience; is that 22 a long time ago. 22 right? 23 Q. Perhaps just tell us a little bit about it for those who 23 A. Absolutely, both sides. As you rightly say, her son had 24 don't have your statement in front of them. What was 24 been sent to Australia, where he had a very, very 25 this particular example? 25 traumatic childhood. He had memories of his mother, and

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1 A. This example I have used is I met a mother of a child 1 so for him, he thought that she -- he was told she was 2 migrant. A child migrant had asked me if I could find 2 dead, he couldn't understand why that had happened, why 3 his family. He had been told, and believed, that his 3 he had been sent away. But somehow, I think, we have to 4 family was dead, that he was an orphan. 20 years ago, 4 remember that he was asking me to find his mother. 5 to be asked to find the family of an orphan, some said 5 I think that took us not very long, a month, to find 6 I couldn't -- it is very hard to get your head around 6 her. So all of those years -- I think that's important 7 that. "You have just told me your family are dead and 7 for us to remember, that all of those years when he was 8 now you want me to find your mother". It was a very big 8 growing up and when he was an adult and when he was 9 learning curve in those days. I met his mother -- 9 getting married and having children, that she was there 10 I found his mother living in Liverpool -- and she 10 all the time. 11 explained to me how she had lost her child and how she 11 Q. But missing from his life? 12 said, "There's never a day goes by when I don't think of 12 A. Missing from his life, absolutely, and from her point of 13 him". 13 view, "Never a day goes by when I don't think of him". 14 But her account of going to see her child regularly, 14 So the complications of that family reunion, of that 15 every Saturday, in a children's home in Liverpool, where 15 mother meeting her son, much, much later in life, well, 16 not only did she see her child, she saw lots of other 16 how do you come to terms with that and integrate that? 17 children and she would go with sweets and she got to 17 Q. Just for some additional details on this account, 18 know this group of little children, she went regularly. 18 because perhaps this is not an uncommon sort of scenario 19 On this particular Saturday, she went as usual and no 19 that you have come across, is this right, that The Mail, 20 children there. Her son wasn't there. She couldn't see 20 The Sun, told you that when he was saying at the 21 the other children. Where are they? Where are they? 21 institution in Australia, "You are wrong, I'm not an 22 Someone in the children's home told her, "They have 22 orphan, I have a mum", he would be beaten? 23 gone. They have gone to Australia". 23 A. Yes. 24 She somehow found out when they had gone and 24 Q. What he described to you, and I think you have said this 25 realised that they had only left an hour and a half 25 in your statement, was "a numbing coldness growing

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1 inside him as he slowly lost hope over many years"? 1 from child migrants over the last seven days. Look at 2 A. That's correct. That's how he felt and that's what he 2 the humanity, look at the violations that we have heard 3 said. Part of his recovery from all of this -- of 3 them talk about to us: kidnapping, sexual abuse in the 4 course, what we have to remember here is the greatest 4 UK before they were sent -- before they were sent -- 5 betrayal of all, that we are telling children that their 5 starting all over again in various institutions within 6 parents are dead when they aren't, and in some cases we 6 the Commonwealth. Violent rapes, multiple perpetrators, 7 are giving information to mothers and fathers that their 7 paedophile rings; that's what we have heard. Living in 8 children have died in their care when they have not. 8 constant terror. Can we imagine that, as a child, 9 Q. In fact, on the dates you have given in your statement, 9 living every day in constant terror? Loss of identity. 10 I think this particular man had tried, in 1961, to find 10 Loss of family. Separations of siblings. Look, twins 11 his mother, had been told by the Australian Child 11 were separated. Brothers and sisters separated when 12 Welfare Department that it was believed she was presumed 12 they arrived in Australia. Many child migrants have 13 dead, having gone missing during the war, although he 13 talked to me about how they lived with the trauma of 14 knew that he'd only been separated from her in 1947, 14 the screams when brothers and sisters were separated. 15 after the war was over? 15 We have heard about slavery. Slave labour camps we 16 A. Yes, that's correct. 16 have heard. Deprivation of food, clothing, medical 17 Q. And that it wasn't until 1997, so many years later, that 17 neglect. These are human rights violations. 18 they were reunited; is that right? 18 Institutions where the culture has been of extreme and 19 A. That is correct. 19 continual violence. Continual violence over years. 20 Q. That sort of account that you have given, is this right, 20 Over a childhood. 21 is not uncommon among the former child migrants that you 21 Torture and degradation, killing of the children's 22 have now had contact with? 22 pets, devastation of long-term literacy through the lack 23 A. Well, it certainly -- it, sadly, is not uncommon and it 23 of education. Think of that, not being able to read or 24 is pervasive right across the child migrant community. 24 write. 25 Q. You have described in summary your understanding of 25 Collusion and coverup at the highest levels. That

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1 the experiences of former child migrants I think in this 1 has been the evidence we have heard. 2 way, that many British former child migrants were 2 So, yes, it does confirm the things that I have said 3 deported -- that's the word you have used -- to 3 in my statement. 4 different Commonwealth countries, and you have said 4 Q. I do plan to take you through the statement. I was just 5 that, that they were, from your perception and your 5 reading out your introductory paragraph, Dr Humphreys. 6 experience of meeting them, subjected to multiple 6 So I do plan to take you through the detail in your 7 crimes, including torture, rape and slavery. They have 7 statement. 8 experienced several different forms of abuse, including 8 A. Okay. 9 loss of identity and perceptions regarding their family 9 Q. But is this right, that the way in which that summary 10 origins and background. There has been a pervasive and 10 has been given by you is because of this proposition 11 lifelong impact of this particular form of abuse that 11 that you have put forward in your statement, that 12 was often reinforced by what you have described as more 12 because former child migrants were taken from their 13 generally recognised types of maltreatment, including 13 families and had a lack of identity, that made them 14 physical and sexual abuse, emotional and educational 14 particularly vulnerable to the sort of abuses that you 15 deprivation, cruel, exploitative institutional regimes 15 have just described? 16 and their childhood has been spent in harsh 16 A. All I can say, yes, of course. Having no family meant 17 institutions. Is that a summary, if it is possible to 17 you had no-one to turn to. The perpetrators knew that 18 summarise it, of those experiences? 18 there was no-one for the children to turn to. Nobody is 19 A. Well, I think, yes, they're the consequences that 19 going to visit them at the weekend. No-one was going to 20 people, child migrants, live with, most of them, every 20 send them a Christmas card and nobody was going to 21 day of their life, and you're quite right, it is 21 celebrate their birthday. So for paedophiles, this was 22 difficult to summarise these experiences. We are 22 absolutely a group of children where nobody -- nobody -- 23 talking about real people, real lives. 23 asked them what was happening to them and nobody, quite 24 Q. Yes. 24 frankly, looking at all of this, cared. Out of sight, 25 A. But, look, in answer to that, look what we have heard 25 out of mind.

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1 Q. I would like to move on just briefly, please, to the 1 overseas. That's what you understand? 2 part of your witness statement that deals with the 2 A. That's my understanding, then and now. 3 history of child migration, albeit that we have heard 3 Q. And the vast majority of those who were sent to 4 some evidence from our experts earlier in the hearing on 4 Australia spent their time in large, bleak institutions 5 this, and we will hear more about it later today. 5 or farm schools with over 350 children in, or up to 350 6 But just a few points, please, from your witness 6 children in? 7 statement on that topic. Is this right, that you have 7 A. That's my understanding. 8 said that Britain is the only country in the world that 8 Q. That's your understanding, yes. Can I just turn up, 9 you understand has a sustained history of child 9 please, one newspaper article you have brought to the 10 deportation which spans four centuries that is not 10 panel's attention that deals with something that 11 related to periods of war or civil unrest? 11 happened in Canada. This is tab 3 of your bundle, 12 A. That's what I understand. That's what I still 12 Chair, and it is CMT000364_001, please. You have made 13 understand. 13 the point, Dr Humphreys, in your witness statement that 14 Q. You have described in your statement elements of 14 there were farmers who took in children in Canada, and 15 the history that the Chair and panel have heard, that 15 that there was a concern about whether those farmers 16 this was a range of -- there were a range of rationales 16 were properly supervised in their care of the children. 17 for the child migration programme. You have described 17 You have drawn to the panel's attention this newspaper 18 how there was a concept of populating the Empire with 18 report from 1924, where a farmer had been charged with 19 good, white British stock? 19 manslaughter because, if one looks at the very end of 20 A. That's correct. 20 the newspaper report, what happened is that the little 21 Q. You have mentioned the -- 21 boy who was in his care had double pneumonia, and it was 22 A. Fairbridge. 22 said that the farmer had not given him any medical 23 Q. You have mentioned the religious aspects to some of 23 attention for that. In fact, what appears to have 24 the institutions involved. But is this right, that you 24 happened, from the news report, if we scroll to the top, 25 have also said here that your view is that, because of 25 is that the judge at the Manitoba court had held that

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1 the way the migration schemes were operated, there was 1 the farmer had no legal responsibility to provide 2 a lack of accountability which allowed voluntary 2 medical attendance and care to the boy, and acquitted 3 organisations to drastically change the lives of 3 the farmer, acquitted Mr Ford, but in discharging him, 4 thousands of children in unintended ways, that those 4 as we carry on down, the judge severely censured him for 5 voluntary organisations in particular, you have 5 his harsh and cowardly treatment. Is that right? 6 suggested, were not rendered properly accountable for 6 A. That's right. I mean, I put this before the panel 7 what they were doing? 7 because it shows, clearly, going back to 1924, how child 8 A. I don't think they were obviously rendered accountable 8 migrants were being treated in the Commonwealth, and it 9 then and I don't think they are now either. 9 is here really to say, we learnt nothing; we continued. 10 Q. Is this right, that you have talked a little bit in your 10 Q. Is this right, that if one looks actually in the very 11 witness statement -- I will come to ask you some more 11 middle of this article, there is another point the panel 12 questions about this in due course -- about the 12 might note here where it says: 13 differences between the countries that children were 13 "The case excited great interest and feeling and 14 migrated to, and is this right, that in New Zealand your 14 more so because of recent criticisms of the immigration 15 understanding is that children were often placed with 15 system as affecting the placing of lads from the home 16 foster parents? 16 country." 17 A. That's correct. 17 So that reflects, does it, some wider concerns that 18 Q. We will come to look at that from your book in due 18 were apparently being discussed in 1924? 19 course. In Canada, children were often placed with 19 A. Well, there were. They were certainly being discussed 20 farmers, often without proper supervision? 20 in Canada, as we know, and Canada itself stopped child 21 A. That's correct. 21 migration. I think the words -- I have to check this, 22 Q. And then, later on, in the Fairbridge Farm School in 22 but I think they said it was barbaric and they wouldn't 23 Canada? 23 continue with the policy of child migrants from Britain. 24 A. That's correct. 24 That's from my memory. 25 Q. Very few children, you say, were legally adopted 25 Q. Yes. We have heard how there was a change from

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1 migrating children to farms, in the end, into one 1 have certainly indicated that, as I have said, very 2 institution and then that ended as well? 2 misguided, and we see the consequences now and we have 3 A. Yes. 3 heard the consequences of that last week. 4 Q. You have said this in your witness account, when looking 4 Q. Is this right, that the reason for your view that you 5 at the motives for child migration, at paragraph 22 of 5 have just expressed is not only that children were taken 6 your witness statement, Dr Humphreys, that although 6 away from what was familiar to them; that also, once 7 there were a different set of motives that drove the 7 they had been taken away, relationships with their 8 child migration programmes, you have made the point that 8 parents and siblings were actively discouraged? 9 none of those motives gave first priority to the needs 9 A. Well -- 10 of the children? 10 Q. That's what you understand? 11 A. Well, absolutely. I made the most convenient point 11 A. Absolutely. I mean, this was the new start, without any 12 there, child migration, as we look at it now, was never, 12 realisation that there is no new start in that way for 13 as far as I can see, in the interest of the child in 13 children and families. 14 total. It took in a lot of factors. But, you know, 14 Q. If I could ask you just to turn up, Chair, in the second 15 I look at these situations in families where it happened 15 bundle, tab 44. This is just one example, Dr Humphreys, 16 all the time, and you cannot see why it was in the 16 that you have brought to the panel's attention of 17 interest of that particular child at that time. 17 a letter that I think you're drawing to their attention 18 Q. What you have said is this, that your view is that child 18 as illustrating this theme. It is CMT000405_001. 19 migrants were viewed as a convenient source of cheap 19 I think this is a letter you have been provided with 20 labour on Canada's farms, as a means of boosting 20 that relates to changes about one child migrant who has 21 Australia's post-war population and as a way to preserve 21 contacted the Leeds Rescue diocese -- Rescue Protection 22 a white, managerial elite in the former Rhodesia; is 22 and Child Welfare Society, and there is obviously 23 that right? 23 correspondence between people about that. Forgive me, 24 A. That's correct. That's right. 24 that is not right. This is a communication about 25 Q. Your understanding is to this effect, is it, that there 25 contact with the former child migrant. It says at the

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1 were certain groups of children who would never be 1 end of this letter that there are changes in the child's 2 migrated because, for example, they were black or 2 family in the UK and then it says this: 3 because they were disabled. Is that right? 3 "For the safety of the child's faith it might be 4 A. That's right. That's part of the policy. 4 wiser not to contact [members of the family] at all. If 5 Q. And that you understood that one of the original 5 the boy returns to her [his mother] he will certainly 6 motivations for the scheme had been to maintain the 6 not be brought up in the Catholic faith." 7 racial unity of the Empire, of Britain's Empire? 7 I think what you are drawing to the panel's 8 A. That's right. 8 attention -- this is paragraph 23 of your witness 9 Q. You have expressed the view, I think, in your witness 9 statement -- is that this appears to illustrate, does 10 statement that the proposition that these British 10 it, on this particular file, a decision that is being 11 children could be given a fresh start many thousands of 11 taken that there should not be contact between the child 12 miles away from all that was familiar was a misguided 12 and its mother, partly for fear of him not being brought 13 view. Is that your view? 13 up in the Catholic faith? 14 A. That is my view. 14 A. Yes. This letter has been presented to the inquiry to 15 Q. Perhaps you can just illustrate that to the panel a bit 15 actually highlight some of these very issues that are 16 more. 16 contained in this letter. 17 A. Of course. Our life starts the day we are born, not 17 Q. It also appears -- the panel can read perhaps the first 18 when some piece of social policy makes a different 18 paragraph -- that the prompt for this letter is that the 19 decision for you. So of course -- how could that have 19 mother of the child was remarrying? 20 ever been based on knowledge at that time of child 20 A. That's right. 21 development, of attachments, separation, familiarity, 21 Q. So that had raised a question about the whereabouts of 22 all the things that children need to give them a sense 22 her son? 23 of identity and belonging, which is so fundamental to 23 A. Yes. They put the child in -- I think what was stated, 24 all of us. 24 putting the child in some moral danger. Now, I would 25 So the knowledge of childcare at that time would 25 like us to look at that letter in the light of

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1 the evidence that we have been given over the last seven 1 A. Don't forget, these were British child migrants that 2 or eight days: the child was going to be put in moral 2 nobody was really -- they weren't at the centre of 3 danger. 3 anybody's policies or minds at that point. 4 Q. There is reference, is there not, in the first part of 4 Q. Just one aspect of that, Dr Humphreys, is this right, 5 the letter, that the mother of the child was going to 5 you have described this disjoint in standards that you 6 remarry into the Church of England church -- 6 have perceived between what was acceptable in England 7 A. That's right. 7 and Australia generally and what was acceptable for the 8 Q. -- which may have some significance, given what is said 8 former child migrants -- 9 later on? 9 A. Yes. 10 A. Yes. 10 Q. -- or, as they then were, child migrants? 11 Q. But is this right, Dr Humphreys, that you are drawing 11 A. I'm making that distinction. 12 the panel's attention to that letter from your extensive 12 Q. Is this right, though, that generally your understanding 13 experience of contact with child migrants and hearing 13 is that children in the UK at that time were broadly 14 their accounts, but there are plenty of other examples 14 being placed into families rather than institutions, 15 of this sort of thing in correspondence that you have 15 whereas the contrast with some of the former child 16 seen? 16 migrant countries was that they were still in large 17 A. Oh, multiple examples of how decisions are reached, on 17 institutions? 18 what basis. What there fails to be, of course, is 18 A. Mmm. Child migration was, by and large -- there are 19 correspondence about the consequences for the children. 19 exceptions, of course, as we have already referred to -- 20 That's sadly lacking. 20 about institutional care. So the children went from 21 Q. Dealing now with some general evidence that you have 21 here to -- post-war Australia, I'm referring to now -- 22 given about the quality of the institutions that the 22 large institutions, and we have heard about that. But 23 children were sent to, and we will come to look at some 23 was fostering and adoption and family care the centre of 24 of the more detailed points about this in due course, 24 childcare policies around the time? Yes, it was. 25 but is this right, that you have expressed the view -- 25 Q. You have talked at paragraph 26 of your witness

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1 I am just reading out 23 and the beginning of 24 of your 1 statement about child migrants being told that they were 2 witness statement -- that the tragic reality for many 2 orphans, and you have talked about that label in this 3 child migrants was appalling standards of care which 3 way, "as a socially constructed identity which did not 4 fell well below the accepted standards within British 4 reflect the truth about their parents". We have seen 5 institutions at that time. Far too many former child 5 examples of children being described as orphans. 6 migrants, you have said, experienced practices and 6 Can you tell us a little bit more about the impact 7 policies which would not have been tolerated by British 7 you think that label had had on child migrants, when in 8 child professionals in that era? 8 fact they weren't orphans? 9 A. Well, there are several things I'm saying in that. This 9 A. Well, of course, that was, I think, in my view, the 10 is about the "standards of the day" argument. Many 10 greatest betrayal of all, because it took so much hope 11 times I am told -- particularly in the early days, in 11 from them that one day somebody would find them or one 12 the early '90s, both here and in Australia, by the 12 day they'd be able to find their families, the people 13 authorities and others, I was told that, "Of course, 13 that they belonged to. 14 these were the standards of the day", and my question, 14 So, in terms of the overall crimes that had been 15 which has still not been answered: when was it the 15 committed against child migrants, the betrayal of family 16 standards of the day to abuse children? I am still 16 and identity, parents and people who knew you and who 17 waiting for that answer. 17 belonged to you, is the greatest of all. So, yes, they 18 Yes, to go on to the other point that you talk 18 were referred to as "orphans", and in the early days, 19 about, you make reference -- and I make reference, of 19 people would write to me and say, "You know, my parents 20 course -- to the general standards of childcare in those 20 have died. I'm an orphan. Please help me find my 21 days in the UK and in Australia. I think in both 21 family", and I spent a very long time looking for the 22 countries -- I have experienced working in both 22 death certificates of parents. They were told their 23 countries -- they fell well below the standards in some 23 parents were dead. They believed it. I spent a lot of 24 institutions in Australia as well. 24 time with my colleagues looking for the death 25 Q. Thank you. 25 certificates, and of course there were no death

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1 certificates because they weren't dead. So, yes, when 1 understanding is that children, former child migrants, 2 we look at the word "orphan", it is used often -- now, 2 who wished to obtain their records have sometimes found 3 I am told, people like to tell me it is a generic term. 3 that they have been told that records have been 4 Mmm. The children didn't see it as a generic term, 4 destroyed? 5 I can tell you. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Did it also, though, have some practical consequences, 6 Q. That you understand that there was, I think, a fire, is 7 for example, it meant that children would not ask 7 that right, that destroyed some of the Rhodesia records? 8 questions about their family because they began to 8 A. There have been a lot of fires. 9 believe that they were orphans? 9 Q. Have there? Do you want to tell the panel a little bit 10 A. Yes, of course it did that. As I have said, it took 10 about that? 11 away all hope, and of course it stopped the questions. 11 A. When we talk about records and accessing records, it has 12 What would the questions be from a child that's been 12 always become -- it becomes very difficult and leads 13 sent to the other side of the world? What would it be? 13 into lots of other debates. But to find records in the 14 "Where's my mummy?", "Where's my daddy?", "How is my 14 '90s, in the early '90s -- we have moved a long way on 15 sister?", "When I am going home?" 15 records, but in those days, as I keep saying, when there 16 Q. Did it also mean, because of the idea that it was 16 was so much hope to find families, obtaining records was 17 necessary to have a fresh start, that often information 17 very difficult. We would often be told -- and we still 18 about the child's family was not sent with the child to 18 are. There was an inquiry recently of a hospital who 19 the migrated country? 19 said their records had been burned. Many enquiries lead 20 A. That's correct. There's a lot of discussion, and I have 20 to some organisations for whom the explanation of "no 21 written quite a lot and extensively about records. But 21 record" is that their records have been burnt, and 22 that's quite right, there was very little information. 22 that's happened several times. And particularly in 23 Many children were sent, as we now know, without birth 23 Rhodesia, when I visited Zimbabwe, as it is now, it was 24 certificates. No birth certificates! No form of 24 very clear in terms of Fairbridge that they'd been 25 identity. So the stripping of identity, and, as we have 25 instructed, as they said, "from London", to destroy all

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1 said, the new start, really took it into areas that 1 the records. 2 deprived children of citizenship, deprived them of 2 Q. That included, did it, the individual case files on 3 passports. I had a letter from somebody saying, 3 individual children who had been migrated there? 4 "I can't get married. I have no birth certificate, and 4 A. It did, because that's what we were asking for. 5 I can't get one". Sometimes they couldn't get it 5 Q. I understand. I would like to move on now to ask you 6 because, often, they had the wrong name, the wrong 6 some questions about the setting up of 7 spelling, the wrong date of birth and couldn't remember 7 the Child Migrants Trust, and, just to be clear, there 8 fully where their birth might have been registered. 8 is a section in your witness account that deals with 9 Q. On a practical level, would it mean that a child on 9 what you describe as missed opportunities. You have 10 a farm school in Australia, if that child asked members 10 given a whole section of evidence about various reports 11 of staff about "my mummy" or "my daddy" the members of 11 and what you say they stand for, which you will come to 12 staff probably wouldn't have information about whether 12 deal with in due course. 13 they were alive or not? 13 A. Yes. 14 A. I think that varies. Some members of staff didn't have 14 Q. I am just moving on now, please, Dr Humphreys, to deal 15 that information. Others in the organisations did. 15 with the setting up of the Child Migrants Trust. 16 Some children did ask about their parents, and I think 16 A. Okay. 17 I have referred to it and it's been referred to, and 17 Q. You have explained how you were initially approached by 18 they were told that they were the children of whores and 18 the person who had been, she understood, sent to 19 descriptions like that; and that their parents were dead 19 Australia as a child and how you began to research this 20 and nobody wanted them. But more than that, more than 20 issue. You have talked about the Observer articles. Is 21 that, that their country didn't want them either. 21 this right, that the Child Migrants Trust was founded in 22 Q. I will come to ask you some more questions about that 22 1987? 23 kind of language and the words that were used to the 23 A. That's correct. 24 children. But just finally on this point about files 24 Q. I think it might help to look up tab 2 of the bundle, 25 and records for now, is this right, that your 25 which is the deed that establishes the

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1 Child Migrants Trust and sets out its broad functions 1 to turn back to tab 1, to CMT000362_001. I don't wish 2 and powers. 2 to embarrass you, Dr Humphreys, but your resume is here 3 A. Yes, its broad mission, its charitable status, its aims 3 in the bundle? 4 and objectives. 4 A. That will embarrass me. 5 Q. This was set up in July 1987? 5 Q. Perhaps I can try to take you through it and not 6 A. That's correct. 6 embarrass you too much. But it is right to record that 7 Q. I think if you look over the page -- it is 7 your work, if we see on the left-hand side of this 8 CMT000363_001. We can see July 1987. If we look at 8 column, has involved, in trying to meet those objectives 9 CMT000363_002, we can see at section 2 that you had 9 of the trust, for example, a large number of TV and 10 a donation of GBP55 at that point to start off the 10 radio appearances -- we see that on the left-hand 11 trust, I think. But then the objects of the trust are 11 side -- in Europe, the USA and Australia. You have 12 at section 5, CMT000363_003, which were, firstly, to 12 described in the CV here the drama documentaries and so 13 provide professional social work and counselling 13 on. In addition to what we have heard about "The Lost 14 services for former child migrants and their families. 14 Children of the Empire", there was "The Leaving of 15 Then, to provide them, under 5.2, with a family 15 Liverpool", mini series. I think we have heard some 16 research service to help them understand their origins. 16 witness about that. Yesterday, I think. Another 17 Under 5.3, to assist them and their families in 17 "60 Minutes" documentary "The Lost Children". You have 18 resolving matters of law and medical history arising out 18 written the book, the "Empty Cradles" book, which 19 of the child migration scheme. 19 I think has been made into a film, "Oranges and 20 Just pausing there, in case it is perhaps not 20 Sunshine". 21 obvious, is that because, on occasions, when people go 21 A. That's correct. 22 to the doctor, you are asked if there is a family 22 Q. It is right, isn't it, to record that for the work that 23 history of something and former child migrants often 23 you've done in respect of child migration issues, you 24 wouldn't know because they didn't know whether their 24 have received the Order of Australia medal -- 25 mother or father had had heart disease or something of 25 A. That's correct.

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1 that nature? 1 Q. -- and also a CBE from the British Government; is that 2 A. That's correct. We thought that was really important to 2 right? 3 put into the trust deed, that of course health issues 3 A. That's correct. 4 are often genetic and essential in today's modern world 4 Q. As well as honorary degrees from Nottingham Trent, the 5 of medicine. So that is why that is in there. 5 Open University and the University of Nottingham? 6 Q. Under 5.4, to promote through research into individual 6 A. That's correct. 7 cases and, perhaps more generally, operation and 7 Q. As the resume makes clear, is this right, the work of 8 administration of the child migration schemes. So to 8 the Child Migrants Trust has led to, in this country, in 9 understand better the impacts that they have had. 9 1998, the Health Select Committee of Inquiry being set 10 5.5, to provide and promote professional counselling 10 up? 11 and therapy for former child migrants, who, by reason of 11 A. Correct. 12 their involvement in the child migration scheme, had 12 Q. Over the page, in Australia, the Senate Inquiry in 2001? 13 experienced physical, emotional and sexual abuse. 13 A. We certainly contributed to that. 14 A. That's correct. 14 Q. And then in 2002, the first International Congress On 15 Q. Then finally over at CMT000363_005, 5.6, through the 15 Child Migration in New Orleans -- 16 study and treatment of those former child migrants who 16 A. Yes. 17 had experienced such abuse and through liaising and 17 Q. -- which was endorsed by the then Prime minister, 18 cooperating with agencies and professional bodies to 18 Tony Blair, Hilary Clinton, Nelson Mandela and 19 improve the understanding and treatment needed for those 19 Sir Ninian Stephen. So a high-profile event; is that 20 people. 20 right? 21 Then finally, at the end, to thoroughly research and 21 A. Absolutely. 22 promote the research of the extent and operation and 22 Q. You have lectured in the Universities of Washington and 23 administration of the child migration schemes. 23 Harvard and, as it records here, you spend lengthy 24 A. That's correct. 24 periods, I think still, each year in Australia; is that 25 Q. While we are in this bundle, perhaps I can ask the panel 25 right?

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1 A. That's correct. 1 who am I; where do I come from; who do I belong to; who 2 Q. The resume makes clear that you have given evidence in 2 belongs to me? And the stripping of that identity that 3 person to the Australian Senate review. You have then, 3 we can see runs throughout all of this, right from the 4 I think, also given evidence to the Royal Commission in 4 very beginning, is at the core of it. 5 Australia and the Northern Ireland inquiry; is that 5 It is the core, and it is the bit that helps us with 6 right? 6 recovery too. So faced with all of this, in the very 7 A. Correct. 7 early days of the trust, and that's where we are looking 8 Q. It is right to record that -- I think, in fairness, this 8 at, here was the dilemma, in a sense, and the question 9 CV is dated December 2016, but the figure given there is 9 was, what can we do that's going to be the most 10 that, as a result of the work of the Child Migrants 10 significant long-term help for child migrants and their 11 Trust, well over 1,000 former child migrants have 11 families? And we took the view there and then that it 12 reclaimed their identity and been reunited with their 12 was about identity building; about restoring their 13 families; is that right? 13 identity, restoring them to their families, and that 14 A. Well, that relates to recent times, with the family 14 needed to be done as soon as possible. 15 restoration fund, yes. Yes. The figure is probably 15 Now, you talk about identity, and of course it is 16 higher. 16 a huge issue, identity, but in the context that we are 17 Q. I'd like now to turn to some questions, please, about 17 talking about it, the stripping of that identity, and we 18 slightly more detailed points about your understanding 18 have heard of all the various degrading levels that we 19 of the experiences of former child migrants in the 19 have been through to strip a child of its identity, but 20 various countries to which we have heard they were 20 one of the things that always impacted on me in those 21 migrated. 21 very early days was -- and child migrants talk about it 22 Let's deal first of all, please, with the topic of 22 to this day -- no shoes, no underwear. Once in 23 identity. Because you rightly say -- is this right? -- 23 Australia, I walked with no shoes and, dare I say, no 24 that this is an important issue to consider first of 24 underwear, and, believe me, you need to do that walk to 25 all. That's your position, isn't it? That this is 25 make you know how it feels to be nobody, when your feet

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1 a central issue for understanding anything about former 1 hurt and they bleed and nobody, but nobody, to go home 2 child migrants; is that right? 2 to that night. 3 A. That's correct. 3 So that's all part -- we can say that is part of 4 Q. You describe it in this way, that the lack of attachment 4 abuse, but it is part of the stripping of identity. So, 5 or continuity of family life deprived children of 5 in a sense, the work of the trust, although you can see 6 the basic blocks of identity; is that right? The basic 6 it is multi-stranded in many respects, focuses on that 7 building blocks of identity? 7 very core that's important to all of us, which is to 8 A. Mmm. 8 restore identity, bring some equality back into the 9 Q. Help the Chair and panel, please, understand how that 9 lives of child migrants, bring some emotional content 10 has continued to affect former child migrants? You have 10 back. Their belonging is at the core of this. 11 made the point that there are different degrees of 11 I could talk a lot about identity, but I hope that 12 resilience among people? 12 has helped you understand where the trust comes from and 13 A. Yes. 13 its focus of work. 14 Q. Perhaps just summarise for the panel and Chair the 14 Q. Is one part of the issue around identity that many of 15 impact that lack of identity has had? 15 the former child migrants, when they were child 16 A. Well, I think -- I will, of course, cover the impact as 16 migrants, didn't know why they had been migrated? They 17 best I can. But I think in one of the evidence sessions 17 didn't understand the reasons for their deportation and 18 this week, a child migrant said, really, clearly, 18 their histories? They didn't know what had happened, 19 "I suffered terrible sexual abuse, but the thing that 19 why they had been moved, as they were? 20 hurts me and damaged me more than anything was the lack 20 A. Well, that's correct. There was no -- for many, not for 21 of my mother". In a sense, that is the lack of 21 everybody, but for the majority, they were given very 22 identity. 22 little preparation and some child migrants have said to 23 So through all of this, for many child migrants, 23 me that it was only two days before, when they were 24 catastrophic events in their life, the key to recovery 24 told, "You're going on holiday", and, "Do you want to go 25 and the point of the real pain is the lack of identity: 25 to Australia?", and a whole range of things. It didn't

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1 really help the child have any sense of what was in 1 sing, "Dr Foster went to Gloucester", and she wanted to 2 store for them at all. 2 just paddle in the pools of rain on the ground. 3 Q. You have described in your witness account -- I don't 3 So that tells us about memory, what we're 4 mean to jump around too much. But at paragraph 49 of 4 remembering, what we remember and what is significant. 5 your statement, there is a section that deals with the 5 That was the first thing that she said. "I now want to 6 stripping of identity from children. You describe this 6 sing nursery rhymes". 7 as dehumanising the children, because I think what you 7 So when we look at that in the context of stripping 8 have said here is that elements such as not giving them 8 of identity, tearing a child apart in terms of anything 9 shoes or proper clothing or underwear, making them work 9 the child has already known, I see that as part of that. 10 in construction works, giving them insufficient and poor 10 So dehumanising, absolutely. 11 quality food, giving them a number not a name, or even 11 Q. The incidence of hair being cut off children and things 12 changing their name when they arrived without 12 of that nature, is this right, if that happened in front 13 explanation, all of those things you've described as 13 of others, where other children were made to watch, you 14 part of a process of dehumanisation of the child; is 14 have described that as a ritualistic punishment that 15 that right? 15 would have an effect on everybody present? 16 A. I think that does describe the dehumanisation of a child 16 A. Mmm. Yes. That's the culture of fear and bullying, 17 and also something that you have already referred to is 17 isn't it? 18 it ensures the child is never going to ask those 18 Q. You've mentioned other examples, such as children who 19 questions. 19 were beaten in front of other children, having been 20 Q. You have mentioned, for example, children feeling that 20 stripped naked, having been ritually stripped naked in 21 they didn't exist, telling you that they felt like they 21 front of other children. Is that part of 22 didn't exist? 22 the dehumanisation that you are describing? 23 A. Mmm. 23 A. It is part of the dehumanising of the children. At some 24 Q. For example, those children who have seen animals being 24 point, we have to look at what happens in those 25 given better treatment than they received, better food; 25 organisations and the culture -- and the culture that

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1 is that right? 1 lets that flourish, and nobody inside the institution or 2 A. That is, I'm sad to say, a very common universal theme 2 outside puts a stop to it. 3 in the world of child migration. 3 Q. Other examples that you have referred to are things like 4 Q. The other examples of this phenomenon I think you have 4 the response to children who wet the bed. You have 5 given in your witness account are, for example, one 5 referred to examples of children being forced to march 6 account of a little girl having her hair cut off with 6 around with urine-soaked sheets over their heads, that 7 garden shears for singing British nursery rhymes? 7 that would have led to a greater feeling of degradation 8 A. Mmm. 8 in the children; is that right? 9 Q. I think you have described that as a form of degradation 9 A. Mmm. 10 and an assault on a young girl and her sense of identity 10 Q. You have, I think, referred in your statement to several 11 that would suggest there was no part of their body that 11 different reports that we will come to in due course 12 was sacred? 12 that made criticisms of various institutions that had 13 A. Absolutely. I mean, I can just think of now that very 13 child migrants in them, but pulling all of those threads 14 encounter with two ladies in Adelaide, when they talked 14 together as best I can, is this right, that you have 15 to me about their childhood and how their hair was 15 referred now to the human rights standards set out in 16 chopped off on arrival, how the closeness -- the hair 16 the UN Declaration of Human Rights, that a child has 17 close to the scalp was taken out by garden shears and 17 a right to family life, that that is -- including, you 18 how they had bleeding, matted sores on their bare heads 18 say, a right to identity and belonging; that family is 19 for months on end. You can imagine the image that that 19 the very place we learn who we are and what shapes our 20 conjured up in my mind at that time. So dehumanising 20 identity. Is that right? 21 and stripping of identity, absolutely, and then being 21 A. That's right. That's correct. 22 flogged for singing British nursery rhymes. I would 22 Q. You have also, I think, described some of the elements 23 just say that a few weeks ago a lady came back to 23 of what you have just gone through as slavery and 24 England to meet her family for the first time, and all 24 torture? 25 that she wanted to do was -- she kept saying, was to 25 A. Mmm.

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1 Q. Is that right? 1 remote parts of the farm, for example, where they were 2 A. I think that's how we would classify it. 2 working on their own? 3 Q. I'd like to ask you some questions now about your 3 A. Yes. 4 understanding of the prevalence of sexual abuse among 4 Q. And indeed in other places? 5 former child migrants. Is this a fair summary by way of 5 A. Yes. 6 introduction, that often your early conversations with 6 Q. And indeed in other parts of the institution as well? 7 former child migrants have been about those very 7 A. Yes. 8 fundamental questions of identity and family, and that 8 Q. You have described how girls would often be sent to work 9 often -- perhaps not always -- a dynamic has emerged 9 and desperately seek a change of placement due to sexual 10 where former child migrants would eventually talk to you 10 abuse. Are you referring there to female child migrants 11 about physical abuse, but often sexual abuse has come 11 being sent into domestic properties to work -- 12 much later in your conversations with them; is that 12 A. Yes. 13 a fair summary? 13 Q. -- and there being vulnerable to abuse? 14 A. Yes, I think that's a fair summary. I mean, to disclose 14 A. Yes. And the isolation around them. Again, even though 15 sexual abuse is complicated and difficult, and certain 15 they are older, no-one to turn to. 16 things need to be there, and trust needs to have been 16 Q. But these are young women who are being sent away from 17 developed, and safety and confidentiality of all. So, 17 the institution in their mid-teens, I think -- 18 yes, I think I would answer that by saying, when we meet 18 A. Yes. 19 with child migrants, is the first thing they talk to us 19 Q. -- to work in a private house? 20 about being sexually abused? Absolutely not. But 20 A. Yes, that's correct. 21 through the other work that we are able to do, family 21 Q. Is this right, just trying to summarise it, that you 22 work, the physical abuse, a whole range of things, it 22 have also had accounts given to you of young child 23 provides an opportunity for trust to develop, and so, 23 migrants being raped or sexually assaulted during their 24 yes, it's not the first thing that's talked about. 24 holiday placements, about which we have heard? 25 Q. No, of course. But is this right, that perhaps part of 25 A. Yes.

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1 the reason why some people find it very difficult in 1 Q. And then going back into the institution? 2 particular to talk about sexual abuse as a former child 2 A. Yes. 3 migrant is because of this stripping of their identity 3 Q. Can you describe, please, just the one account at 4 and the enormous grief and loss you have described that 4 paragraph 48 of your witness statement about the man who 5 that causes? 5 came to see you at Christmas and the recollections he 6 A. Mmm. 6 had, having seen, I think, your Christmas tree? 7 Q. That that is a fundamental issue that affects their 7 A. Well, of course, things like Christmas trees and 8 ability to talk about all of their experiences; is that 8 birthday cakes and those sorts of things can all serve 9 right? 9 as real triggers for pain and recollection of things 10 A. That's correct. That's right. 10 that happened as children. This was around, of all the 11 Q. I'd like to ask you now about some of the detail of 11 things that most of us take for granted, a Christmas 12 the accounts of sexual abuse that you have been given. 12 tree. He came in to see us with a Christmas tree there. 13 You have understood from some former child migrants 13 And immediately that, in a sense, served to trigger 14 allegations of rape and sexual assault; is that right? 14 quite a lot of recollections of being taken to 15 A. That's right. 15 a family -- he was in an orphanage, taken to a family at 16 Q. You say at paragraph 47 of your witness statement that 16 Christmas to sing for the family on Christmas Eve and 17 you have had accounts given to you by former child 17 before. So he would be taken into this house. He would 18 migrants of being raped and sexually assaulted in the 18 be asked to sing a Christmas Carol, which he would do, 19 course of their forced labour in farm institutions? 19 and then later, when other guests -- this is how he 20 A. Yes. 20 described it -- were eating and drinking, that he would 21 Q. They were particularly vulnerable to that, you say, 21 be taken upstairs by a male member of the family and 22 because of the isolated conditions in which they worked? 22 sexually abused. 23 A. Yes. 23 Q. In the home? 24 Q. Is this right, that you have heard examples of former 24 A. In the home. 25 child migrants being raped or sexually assaulted in 25 Q. And then sent back to the institution from which he'd

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1 come? 1 Q. Is this right that, some of the former child migrants 2 A. And then sent back to the institution following that. 2 have conveyed to you a belief that they believe they 3 And always feeling that he could never tell anybody, 3 were chosen for migration because of that? 4 because he would never be believed, and living in the 4 A. Mmm. 5 fear that next Christmas he would be asked to go back 5 Q. Is this right, because there was a fear that they would 6 there again. Again, that highlights, of course, some 6 report what had happened in England and Wales and, 7 terrible things, but one of the things it highlights is, 7 therefore, they believe that that's why they had been 8 no-one to turn to. 8 migrated? 9 Q. Is this a summary that you give at paragraph 54 of 9 A. Mmm. Well, that's correct. 10 the range of accounts that you have been given, that you 10 Q. Is that right? 11 have described a crushing catalogue of sexual abuse, 11 A. Well, that's correct. If I could just elaborate on 12 deprivation, violence and abusive institutional 12 that. The disclosures and revelations of severe sexual 13 practices and a childhood lived in constant terror and 13 abuse in this country, before being deported, is of 14 hypervigilance without safety or hope? 14 recent years in numbers. I think the apology by 15 A. Yes. 15 Gordon Brown, for some people, meant that they felt safe 16 Q. That most of the former child migrants have described to 16 to talk about what had happened to them at home before 17 you a feeling of having no escape, nobody to tell, 17 they were sent, and for some child migrants, it is 18 nobody to save them, and they have very few positive 18 absolutely clear, and they are able to tell us, that 19 memories or moments from their childhood; is that right? 19 they felt that they were being sent away because they 20 A. Yes, exactly right. 20 were about to "tell" that they had been sexually abused 21 Q. You have described in your witness statement in summary 21 in institutions here. 22 that there have been various initiatives in more recent 22 Some of the context -- of course the context of all 23 years to shine a light on historic sexual abuse, 23 abuse is abhorrent to all of us, but the context of 24 including the Australian redress schemes and the Royal 24 that -- what happened to them before being sent is just 25 Commission. Is this right, that those forums have been, 25 awful, and I am sure you are going to receive some

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1 for many former child migrants, the first time they have 1 witness statements outlining that: children being taken 2 disclosed incidents of sexual abuse -- 2 into woods and raped in cars; children that were being 3 A. Yes. 3 taken to hospital, that they had cut their hands on 4 Q. -- in any public way? 4 a milk bottle because it was so cold they fell over and 5 A. Yes. Yes, it is. I think the recognition of the pain 5 being sexually abused in a car on the way back. 6 and hardship that has been caused by these schemes to 6 Now, this is a child that had just had stitches, 7 many people -- it's that recognition at last of living 7 without anaesthetic, put in his hand. So to tell us 8 a life where no-one believes you, that kind of public 8 about things that happened here as well, before they 9 national recognition has given enormous strength for 9 were sent, imagine what that does to your sense of being 10 people to come before public forums and give their 10 as a child. 11 evidence. Yes. 11 Q. Turning now, then, to some more detail around the impact 12 Q. Is this right, that your experience indicates that many 12 of sexual abuse on former child migrants, at 13 former child migrants have never previously talked about 13 paragraph 57 of your witness statement you have 14 any sexual abuse with their partners or their families 14 summarised, I think, what you have elicited from your 15 or their adult children? 15 experience, a list of the enduring effects of childhood 16 A. That's correct. And sexual abuse, like any abuse, 16 sexual abuse on former child migrants, or indeed 17 brings about shame. The awfulness of this is that it 17 potentially on victims of child sexual abuse generally. 18 brought out shame in the children, and a lot of the work 18 But perhaps you can help the panel with your evidence at 19 of the trust has been talking about, "It is not your 19 paragraph 57? 20 shame, it is ours". 20 A. I focus very much on child migrants here, I suppose in 21 Q. You have mentioned in your evidence already that some of 21 some ways assessing the impact that -- the sexual abuse, 22 the former child migrants have described to you being 22 the violation of them over years, and sometimes at such 23 sexually abused before they left the UK, in homes in 23 tender ages as well, I think we'd all expect these sorts 24 England and Wales? 24 of areas that I have talked about: low self-esteem, and 25 A. Yes. 25 this pervasive sense of pessimism that, "Nothing good

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1 can happen to me, I am worthless, even my country didn't 1 children, they were often deprived of any privacy. We 2 want me", and that's there in a lot of people, and 2 have heard accounts and I think you have described here 3 that's changing. This is a changing dynamic with 3 incidents of having children to go to the toilet or the 4 people, as they learn more about themselves and recover 4 bathroom with the door not locked and adults supervising 5 in some aspects. 5 them in the shower, and things of that nature. Does 6 So trauma. I mean, of course trauma is 6 that play some part in the impact these experiences have 7 multi-layered, multi-faceted, it hits you in many 7 had on former child migrants? 8 different ways at different times, but trauma is, of 8 A. Absolutely. It is not seen as communal living in 9 course, something that's very much -- they have to live 9 a boys' or girls' boarding school; it's been experienced 10 with. 10 as something else, as voyeuristic by staff that were in 11 A heightened sense of guilt. Shame, I have already 11 these orphanages and homes. But, mainly, it has been 12 spoken about shame. How it affects close and personal 12 seen as an environment of bullying, of fear, and of 13 relationships, issues to do with intimacy, attachments, 13 children wondering who is going to be next to be abused. 14 parenting, being somebody's mother, being somebody's 14 So all of that. Again, it is back to identity. Again, 15 father, all of those things are often very complex. 15 when you are stripping a child of everything, you are 16 Mental health issues are very prevalent in this 16 putting a lot of children in the showers, and indeed 17 community. Anxiety, depression, sleep disorders, panic 17 photographs exist of, in this particular case, religious 18 attacks, flashbacks. All part of the post traumatic 18 brothers looking at all the children with no clothes on 19 syndrome. And of course for many the constant issues of 19 in the showers. 20 trauma, really. Trauma. Recovery is long and painful. 20 Q. Is this right, that one other element -- I think you 21 Q. Is this right, that part of the complicating factors for 21 touched on it --of the consequences of sexual abuse on 22 all of these that you have described is the delay in 22 former child migrants is that those who were sexually 23 people being able to talk about what happened to them. 23 abused and didn't understand what was happening have 24 People have carried these issues around with them for 24 continued to grapple with issues in their own sex lives 25 many decades? 25 as adults; is that right?

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1 A. Of course for child migrants, for most of them, it's 1 A. Absolutely. 2 gone on for all their life, as long as they can 2 Q. A few of the other issues that you have referred to here 3 remember. I am talking here about the psychological 3 are that one aspect is difficulties with medical 4 implications. But of course there are other 4 examinations, that former child migrants may find it 5 implications, like living constantly with injustice, and 5 particularly difficult to have intrusive medical checks 6 that contributes to all of this kaleidoscope of stress 6 on them. Can you just talk a little bit about that, 7 and anxiety, depression, that injustice is a part of 7 please? 8 that as well. 8 A. That is one of the consequences. Anything -- for many, 9 Q. You have described in your witness statement at 9 not all child migrants, but for many, which is about -- 10 paragraph 60 the issue around a removal of identity and 10 as you say, medical interventions are often confused 11 dehumanisation that you have described as being a form 11 with other aspects of intimate behaviour. So for 12 of grooming. Do you see that? You have described it in 12 examinations -- well, I will just give you an example. 13 this way, you have said that you consider, and the trust 13 I had a phone call from a surgeon who wanted to operate 14 consider, "These barbaric practices of removal of 14 quickly on a child migrant who had gone to an outpatient 15 identity and dehumanisation to be a form of grooming on 15 appoint with a heart condition, and the surgeon -- 16 a continuum of criminal abuse that often includes sexual 16 I mean, he was so poorly -- wanted to operate 17 assault." 17 immediately. Immediately. He said, "You can't get off 18 A. Yes. 18 the bed. We want to operate immediately", and he 19 Q. "It could also be described as torture. Following such 19 refused the operation. Eventually, the hospital rang me 20 sustained mistreatment, few children would dare resist 20 and said, "We have this person here. He is refusing to 21 and fewer still would dare to report the assault." 21 let me operate on him and he will die". I had to say, 22 A. Yes. 22 "Because he doesn't want anybody to touch him. He can't 23 Q. You have mentioned another point of detail I perhaps 23 allow you to give him an anaesthetic because you take 24 should have come to earlier, that one factor you have 24 all control away from him". That's what you will do. 25 elicited from former child migrants is that, as 25 So we had to talk through all of this and help him feel

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1 safe and to know that all you are going to do is help 1 former child migrants, despite appalling histories of 2 him get better. That's an extreme example. But it can 2 severe sexual assault, sometimes by multiple 3 relate to a dentist. The child migrant might say, 3 perpetrators over several years, the impact of sexual 4 "I will not go to the dentist". 4 abuse is not presented as the most damaging element of 5 The consequences for health -- it is pretty obvious, 5 their childhood. Rather, it appears to have been the 6 isn't it? They can't bear anyone touching them. 6 lack of family, the absence of safety during their 7 Q. You have described some accounts of former child 7 childhood, the constant presence of threat and terror 8 migrants discharging themselves rather than have medical 8 that have determined the longer-term impact on their 9 treatment that's necessary? 9 personal development and psychological well-being. Is 10 A. Yes, quite often. 10 that a fair summary of your understanding of the impact 11 Q. You have also mentioned that some former child migrants 11 of these experiences on former child migrants? 12 have needed corrective surgery or medical treatment 12 A. I think so. 13 because of the violence and brutality of their 13 MS HILL: Chair, I see the time. Perhaps you could take the 14 childhood. 14 morning break and then we will return for the remainder 15 A. Yes. 15 of Dr Humphreys' evidence? 16 Q. So there is a direct link, is that right? 16 THE CHAIR: Yes. We will now take a 15-minute break. 17 A. Yes. 17 (11.47 am) 18 Q. Between the abuse they suffered as children and the need 18 (A short break) 19 for medical treatment as an adult? 19 (12.05 pm) 20 A. Yes. 20 MS HILL: Dr Humphreys, I would like to move now to ask you 21 Q. Do you want to give some examples of that, or the sort 21 some questions about some of the material in your book, 22 of thing that you are talking about? 22 in your "Empty Cradles" book, some points of detail, 23 A. I expect there are some obvious things that we can think 23 please. 24 about when children have been, as young boys, anally 24 Can I take you, first of all, to the part in your 25 raped. I think probably I don't need to talk about that 25 book -- it is page -- I'm not sure we need to bring up

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1 much more. 1 the INQ number, but it might just help, actually. It is 2 But hearing loss is a really big issue in the child 2 INQ000163_001 -- would it help you to see it on the 3 migrant community. Many, many people have suffered from 3 screen, Doctor? 4 hearing loss for many, many years. That relates very 4 A. Yes. 5 much to the physical abuse in these institutions, where 5 Q. This is the chapter of your book where you deal with 6 you will hear and see that we are being told that the 6 your visit to Rhodesia. 7 children were brutalised, really, many times we have 7 A. Okay. 8 heard about that, but particularly where the long-term, 8 Q. Southern Rhodesia. We appreciate that the majority of 9 real physical damage is not emotional, it's around ears 9 the CMT's work has been around Australia. I was hoping 10 and eyes and it's a real problem. 10 to ask you some questions about your experience, such as 11 Q. You have described, just finally under this heading, one 11 it is, of the Rhodesia aspect of child migration. Is 12 of the other issues is that many former child migrants 12 this right, that when you went to visit Southern 13 have suffered long-term difficulties in maintaining 13 Rhodesia, now Zimbabwe, as we see at the top of 14 intimate relationships as adults. You have described 14 page 146, you went to the state archives to try to do 15 how a large proportion of those whom you have had 15 some research; is that right? 16 contact with, particularly the men, have lived alone 16 A. That's right. 17 throughout their adult lives? 17 Q. Is this a fair summary, that you began to understand, 18 A. That's correct. 18 from having seen material in the archives, that this 19 Q. Or had marriages or relationships that haven't survived; 19 appeared to be quite a different sort of scheme than 20 is that right? 20 what you had been exposed to in terms of Australia? 21 A. That's correct. 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. Just I think generally finally on this topic -- and 22 Q. Can you perhaps help the Chair and panel with why you 23 then, Chair, I see the time and it might be a suitable 23 formed that view? 24 point for a morning break -- you have said at 24 A. I think the differences -- of course, I was interviewing 25 paragraph 64 of your witness statement that for some 25 people there who had been sent to Fairbridge College in

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1 Bulawayo. The thing that struck me in terms of its 1 A. That's correct. 2 differences was that mainly the parents had given 2 Q. You have mentioned how you put an advert in the 3 consent for their children to be admitted to Fairbridge, 3 newspaper you received for potential child migrants to 4 and to be sent to what was then, as you say, 4 come and speak to you. You received nine responses to 5 Southern Rhodesia, the Bulawayo College. It was seen, 5 that. I think, over the page, you have also described 6 I think, certainly by the people that I spoke to as 6 being contacted by the former Governor General of 7 almost a prestigious boarding school, in a sense. They 7 Rhodesia and visiting him at his house? 8 would describe it as being sold to their parents as 8 A. That's correct. 9 a great opportunity, that they were IQ tested, they felt 9 Q. In terms of former child migrants you have given one 10 that they already had a sense of who they were before 10 account at the foot of page 149. In the middle of 149, 11 they went, and their parents were very much involved in 11 you have said that those letters for people who wanted 12 that decision. 12 to see you were using, as you said, different language, 13 So that's one difference, of course. 13 talking about being privileged to be selected to go and 14 Q. So you felt that the issues around the lack of identity 14 the IQ tests and so on, and then you have said that you 15 were not present in the Rhodesia experience as much as 15 met somebody who was now an engineer for a mining 16 they might have been in Australia; is that right? 16 company in his house and he was speaking quite 17 A. Not so prominent at all, and, you know, had a sense of 17 positively generally about his experience; is that 18 who parents were and where home was. Yes, of course 18 right? 19 there was the breakage of attachments, but that was 19 A. Yes, that's right. 20 quite different. 20 Q. From your discussions with former child migrants from 21 Q. Just to focus in, please, on page 146, there is 21 Southern Rhodesia, have you had any accounts of sexual 22 a section at the end of the third paragraph where you 22 abuse given to you from that group? 23 say this, that you understood from looking at, I think, 23 A. I think not. I can't recall any, and certainly they 24 a brochure from the 1946 opening of the Bulawayo College 24 weren't disclosed to me during that period. 25 that in Southern Rhodesia at that time most of 25 Q. But is it right to say that you have had fairly limited

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1 the manual tasks on the farms were performed by the 1 contact with former child migrants from 2 African men or women or children? 2 Southern Rhodesia because the focus of your work has 3 A. Yes, that's correct. 3 been in Australia? 4 Q. That the white immigrant children from Fairbridge were 4 A. It is right to say that in terms of finding and locating 5 not expected to perform any farm chores or other chores 5 their families, absolutely. But in terms of -- well, 6 as they had been in Australia? 6 the political situation, of course, in Zimbabwe and the 7 A. That's what I was told at the time. That was my 7 difficulties that that posed for Britain's former child 8 understanding. 8 migrants were highly significant. So throughout those 9 Q. I think you say this: 9 difficulties over -- certainly through the '90s, the 10 "The inference was they were the elite and had been 10 issues for them were about, could they return home, 11 brought from England to join the next generation of 11 would they be able to use the Health Service, would they 12 professionals and politicians that would run Rhodesia." 12 have pensions, and could the government help them return 13 A. That's right. 13 to the United Kingdom? 14 Q. You continue to describe how you and Joy Melville, 14 Q. I see. 15 I think, who was working with you at the time, went to 15 A. That was complex, difficult and at times left former 16 visit the site of the Bulawayo College? 16 child migrants in Zimbabwe in very difficult positions, 17 A. Yes. 17 particularly on those areas that I've spoken about: 18 Q. You have said here you, "expected to see a rather grand 18 returning back; having healthcare; and the pensions 19 looking campus" -- just a little bit down that page -- 19 issues. 20 "but instead I found what looked like a row of Nissen 20 Q. Is this right, that there was an additional political 21 huts. The actual college had once been an RAF base and 21 sensitivity, perhaps, around it becoming apparent, if 22 Fairbridge had converted the building." 22 this was the case, that white children had been brought 23 It was now, you say, a primary school for local 23 to Rhodesia and educated there to sustain white rule, as 24 black children. You were shown around by the 24 an additional dimension to this experience; is that 25 headmaster? 25 right?

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1 A. Incredibly sensitive. 1 sexual abuse of those former child migrants? 2 Q. Can I ask you, please, to turn up INQ000164_001, which 2 A. Not at that time. The issues at that time for 3 is the part of your book, Dr Humphreys, that deals with 3 Fairbridge -- those who had gone to Fairbridge 4 your visit to Canada. Again, just a few questions, 4 Vancouver, particularly post war, there was, again, 5 please, about this. Is this right, that you did visit 5 a profound grief, really, at loss of family and loss of 6 Canada at one point? You understood from your research 6 community. So that was there in everybody. 7 and I think from your husband's research as well, is 7 It is in recent times that people are -- who went 8 that right -- 8 there are beginning to disclose sexual abuse at 9 A. That's right. 9 Fairbridge Vancouver. 10 Q. -- that Canada had accepted the largest number, in fact, 10 Q. So that's in the Fairbridge School in Vancouver? 11 over time, of British child migrants? 11 A. Yes. 12 A. That's correct. 12 Q. Have you had any experiences of sexual abuse of child 13 Q. Albeit, just broadly we have heard some evidence about 13 migrants who were sent to homes in Canada conveyed to 14 this, at a further period of time back in history than 14 you? 15 more recent times? 15 A. I'm not aware of it. I will look into that, but I'm not 16 A. Yes. That's correct. 16 aware of it right now. 17 Q. Is this right, and perhaps just turn up a few details, 17 Q. The panel will hear some more evidence in relation to 18 you did speak to some former child migrants in Canada? 18 Canada today. 19 A. Yes. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Look, please, just as an example, on 156. You met an 20 Q. Can I ask you to turn up, please, INQ000165_001, which 21 elderly lady who had been migrated to Canada in 1913, 21 is a very brief account of your experiences visiting 22 when she was 12-and-a-half. She described not wanting 22 New Zealand and I think the child migration programme 23 to go to Canada, and she and others just gave you -- we 23 there. 24 don't need to look at any particular details, but is 24 A. Yes. 25 this a fair summary. You were given some accounts of 25 Q. Again, is this right, that you had received some letters

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1 children being in some sort of arrival centre and being 1 from New Zealand. Your husband, I think, had done some 2 selected by farmers to go on their farms? 2 research and understood the way in which those migration 3 A. Mmm. That was particularly shocking, that the children 3 schemes operated? 4 in those days were sent to what was termed to me as 4 A. Yes. 5 "distribution centre" and the farmers would select 5 Q. The schemes were rather different to those in Australia? 6 a child on the basis of his appearance, was he well, was 6 A. Yes. 7 he healthy, was he a stocky little boy and was he going 7 Q. Generally, the children were placed in foster families; 8 to be able to work the farms for them? So that was 8 is that right? 9 pretty -- for the people I spoke to and have spoken to 9 A. Mmm. 10 since, fairly universal around that time, that it was 10 Q. And the schemes ended in 1954, you understand, because 11 really clear that this was labour, child labour. 11 the "right type of children" were not available; is that 12 Q. I think we can take that down from the screen now. You 12 right? 13 did refer in your book to some accounts, for example, of 13 A. 549 child migrants from 1948 to 1954 were sent to 14 a migrant, a 72-year-old man now remembering being 14 New Zealand. I visited there in 1995. I think all the 15 inspected by a farmer and the farmer saying, "We won't 15 people that I met were sent to families rather than 16 take him. He won't last the winter", or something like 16 institutions. 17 that? 17 Q. Is this a fair summary of what you have written in the 18 A. That's right, yes. 18 book, that initially that was a relief to you, that 19 Q. You did, I think, have some experience of those who had 19 children had been sent to foster homes. But you did 20 been part of the Fairbridge School in Canada; is that 20 then later understand that there had been concerns 21 right? 21 raised by the number of placements children had had -- 22 A. Yes, in British Columbia, Vancouver Island, yes. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. In relation to those whom you spoke to from Canada, from 23 Q. -- and they had been moved around to many different 24 the Canada child migration projects, again, did you have 24 foster homes; is that right? 25 any perception or understanding about incidents of 25 A. That's correct.

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1 Q. You had also read articles, I think, like the one you 1 Q. I see. 2 have drawn to the court's attention, about the harsh 2 A. In a sense, this was somebody -- obviously 3 labour conditions that some of the children were in also 3 a psychologist telling me about the work that they were 4 in New Zealand; is that right? 4 doing in Perth, Western Australia at that time. 5 A. That's right. 5 Q. But do you think there is any basis for thinking that 6 Q. You have referred, I think, on page 208, to a child in 6 that might well be an underreported figure? 7 New Zealand who described, in a newspaper article, being 7 A. I think we would all say that now, yes. It may have 8 described as treated like a child slave, working 8 been then. I don't know then at all. At that 9 18 hours a day. Another child had not had treatment for 9 particular time, it was a long time ago, I was 10 a hernia operation; is that right? 10 absolutely -- you could imagine -- appalled by that. 11 A. Yes. 11 But I don't know how she conducted her research and with 12 Q. And also complaints of chronic bed wetting by the 12 whom. It was just a conversation. 13 children? 13 Q. Or indeed, is this right, we don't know very much about 14 A. We see this all the way through, don't we? The distress 14 the conditions in which the interviews with child 15 of children is just all the way through this. 15 migrants took place? 16 Q. I was going to say, similar patterns to what we have 16 A. No idea. I have no idea at all. 17 seen in Australia and New Zealand; is that right? 17 Q. But even allowing for those limitations, that's the 18 A. Absolutely, correct. 18 figure that you were given? 19 Q. Thank you. The final part of your book, please, 19 A. Yes. 20 Dr Humphreys, is INQ000174_001. I'm afraid it is not 20 Q. There is just, I think, one other document in the first 21 copied terribly well, but you can still read it on the 21 folder I wanted to take you to, please, if I may. It is 22 screen. This is page 303 of your book. To put this 22 tab 22 of the bundle. CMT000383_001. This is 23 into context, Dr Humphreys, this is now about the 23 a document, Dr Humphreys, in fairness, that we will come 24 incidence of sexual abuse among child migrants to 24 back to. But this is the document that is a letter 25 Australia. Just because we heard some evidence 25 written by the British Association of Social Workers; is

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1 yesterday about, as best as it is possible to assess, 1 that right? 2 the percentage of former child migrants to Australia who 2 A. The emigration of children letter? 3 were sexually abused. Is this right -- it's just one 3 Q. British Federation, sorry. I ask you to look at this 4 detail from your book -- that, at the foot of page 303, 4 because you a social worker by background. This is 5 you had contact in Australia with a researcher who was 5 a letter you refer to in your statement that was 6 looking into the impact of child migration on those to 6 written, I think, to the Times in response to the 7 Western Australia, a Ms Miller, and she I think told you 7 Curtis Report; is that right? 8 she'd interviewed 180 former child migrants from the 8 A. That's right. 9 Christian Brothers institutions from Bindoon, Clontarf, 9 Q. Essentially, is this correct, that the British 10 Tardun and Castledare, and her understanding conveyed to 10 Federation of Social Workers was expressing concerns 11 you was as many as 50 of the 250 boys reported being 11 about the drafting of The Children's Bill, as it then 12 sexually abused and there were names of some 12 was, reminded people of the recommendation of 13 16 Christian Brothers alleged to have been involved; is 13 the Curtis Report, that the treatment of former child 14 that right? 14 migrants should be comparable to those that had been 15 A. Mmm. That was a long time ago. 15 proposed for children remaining in the UK, and then the 16 Q. Can I ask you about that? To be clear, does that 16 Federation of Social Workers had said this: 17 reflect the figure you were given then, so 50 of 250? 17 "The undersigned have reason to think that the 18 A. Well, that's what I was told. I can't validate that 18 practices of the various agencies for the migration of 19 that's correct. I can only say that's what I was told 19 children ['overseas', I think it should be] vary. Their 20 at that point. 20 methods of selection of children, their welfare, 21 Q. Just give us, please, if you can, the date for this 21 education, training and aftercare in the receiving 22 research. It is quite a way back, I think, is it? 22 countries are not always of a sufficiently high 23 A. I will come back to you with a date for that, but it 23 standard. We would urge, therefore, in conjunction with 24 would have been most certainly 1989/1990/1991. It was 24 the Commonwealth Relations Department, an International 25 in those very early days. 25 Governmental Commission of Enquiry to be set up to

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1 examine the whole system of care of deprived children of 1 over the world and we never close a case. Sometimes it 2 British origin in the Commonwealth with special 2 can take 10 years to find a family, the documentation is 3 attention to aftercare and employment." 3 so limited. 4 Is that right? 4 Recovering, of course, from physical and emotional 5 A. That's right. We can see here that social workers were 5 abuse. That's very much part of our therapeutic work. 6 flagging up, "This is not right". I think, as we will 6 As I have said, it can go on for a long time. 7 see, over time, another opportunity, another failure, 7 And of course there is a justice, social justice, 8 where we didn't start and look very carefully at the 8 strand to our work as well. Therapy on its own does not 9 practice of child migration. This was another of those 9 work. There's a whole range of things that these 10 opportunities that we missed. 10 children, now adults, have suffered and justice is 11 Q. Is this right, I think we know from the appendices to 11 really a part of that recovery. It is not something 12 your witness statement that that was written 12 that's added to it, it's part of it. 13 in March 1948? 13 So, working with family, particularly working with 14 A. Mmm, I think so. 14 mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, whose families have 15 Q. It is not a memory test. I think you have said it in 15 all been impacted on by child migrant policies. So 16 your statement? 16 that's just an overview. I hope at some point we can 17 A. It is not recent. 17 talk in more detail about our work, but generally that's 18 Q. You have given the date of it as 24 March 1948. 18 an overview of it. 19 A. Yes. 19 Social workers, experienced, qualified, specialised 20 Q. Thank you. Can I move on now, please, Dr Humphreys, to 20 workers. A small team, so that continuity of work, of 21 ask you some questions firstly about the role of 21 relationship, of trust, is all there. 22 the CMT, the Child Migrants Trust, in a general sense. 22 Q. There are some additional details you have given in your 23 We have talked very briefly about the trust deed and the 23 statement, Dr Humphreys, around things like deliberately 24 particular functions of the CMT. But help the panel, 24 setting up a welcoming and homely setting for 25 please, understand a little bit more about the 25 conversations with former child migrants, so it doesn't

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1 fundamental principles that underpin how your work is 1 feel like an institution; is that right? 2 done. 2 A. Yes. 3 A. Well, two of the key principles, and I hope that we will 3 Q. And you take care to make sure that former child 4 come on to this at some point, are independence, of 4 migrants can actively contribute in how the programme 5 course, that is critical in any therapeutic work, is 5 and the premises are run; is that right? 6 independence. The trust is independent from any of 6 A. That's right. 7 those agencies or anybody that's been involved in child 7 Q. You have indicated a range of different services, apart 8 migration, and we know that that's critical for safety 8 from counselling, can be accessed by former child 9 and recovery. So independence and safety are two very 9 migrants as is appropriate for a particular case? 10 important values. 10 A. Mmm. 11 What do we do? Well, I suppose I can briefly 11 Q. Is this right, that treating each former child migrant 12 describe it as this. We would say, well, we help -- 12 as an individual is particularly important, given that 13 help -- restore identity. Within this unique group of 13 lack of identity that was experienced by them as 14 people, we have had this unique experience. That means 14 children? 15 a whole variety of things. The restoring of identity, 15 A. Critical part of our work. 16 what is that about? It's really about helping people 16 Q. You have indicated that your work also includes bringing 17 understand their past in an informed way, in a sensitive 17 to international and national attention the issues 18 way. It doesn't matter how long that takes either. 18 around former child migrants. So there is a campaigning 19 Always putting child migrants, wherever we can, at 19 element to your work -- 20 the heart of everything we do and their families. So we 20 A. Mmm. 21 are a specialist social work agency. We only work with 21 Q. -- as well as an educational element to your work; is 22 child migrants and their families. Restoring identity 22 that right? 23 means restoring them to their families wherever 23 A. Mmm. 24 possible, restoring them in a whole range of things. So 24 Q. You have also, as well as working individually with 25 family reunions, finding families. We find families all 25 former child migrants to learn about their identities,

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1 helped former child migrants give evidence to a range of 1 campaigning arm of the trust, speaking for child 2 inquiries, about which we have heard; is that right? 2 migrants and their families, contributing to a whole 3 A. Yes, it is all part of recovery, it is all part of that 3 range of measures that tries to bring this community of 4 strand. 4 child migrants together, and of course is -- contributes 5 Q. In particular, most recently, you have given evidence 5 to the policy and the practice and the awareness of 6 I think to the Northern Ireland Historic Institutional 6 the trust services. So an essential part of our 7 Abuse Inquiry and the Australian Royal Commission in 7 organisation. 8 your own capacity, but also have supported former child 8 Q. Is this right, that what you have referred to as work 9 migrants in these various processes we have heard about; 9 with the media, cultural and campaigning activities, are 10 is that right? 10 part of promoting justice in itself? 11 A. Yes. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. I think you have said this at the end of this part of 12 Q. But also part of recovery for former child migrants? 13 your statement: 13 A. It's part of that essential recognition and 14 "We cannot give back to child migrants their lost 14 acknowledgement of what's happened to them, and also 15 childhood, but with determination, compassion an 15 leads the way forward on many, many outstanding matters 16 commitment, we can help them move from confusion and 16 that we really need to get on with fairly quickly if we 17 despair to clarity and understanding of their own family 17 are to deliver a range of things to child migrants who 18 history. The benefits of restoring family relationships 18 are getting older, many are ill and frail, and there's 19 and a sense of belonging are frequently mentioned by 19 a need to move swiftly on a range of measures. 20 former child migrants as making the greatest positive 20 Q. Is this also right -- it is a practical matter -- that 21 difference to their adult lives. For some, it is 21 in relation to many of the former child migrants who 22 transformative and helps them face more painful issues 22 were sent to Australia, there have been issues around 23 relating to historic sexual abuse." 23 their citizenship and things of that nature that the 24 Is that right? 24 trust has helped particular individuals with; is that 25 A. That's correct. 25 right?

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1 Q. Would you like to explain a little bit, please, about 1 A. Yes, that's correct. 2 the Family Restoration Fund and what that entails? 2 Q. You have led the way in relation to there being reforms 3 A. The Family Restoration Fund was an initiative of 3 so that those sent to Australia did not have to pay 4 the British Government. It was part of our nation's 4 certain fees to become citizens and things of that 5 apology to former child migrants and their families. 5 nature? 6 The government, at that point, felt -- made a decision 6 A. Yes. 7 that that was a very practical and a very real way that 7 Q. Is that right? 8 they could be helped and assisted. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. This was in 2010? 9 Q. Finally, Dr Humphreys, please, I would like to ask you 10 A. In 2010. It was for GBP6 million, and has supported 10 some questions about the concept of secondary abuse that 11 I think -- I can give you the correct figures, but a lot 11 you have dealt with in your witness statement. Can 12 of family reunions. The child migrants are using it. 12 I summarise your evidence -- the introduction to your 13 It has been a lifeline for many to their families, to 13 evidence in this way, that the concept of secondary 14 their country, and has given choices and options that 14 abuse is something the CMT has developed as an explicit 15 previously had not been there. So I think I can say, on 15 description of the continuing negative impact -- I'm 16 behalf of the majority of child migrants, and the 16 using your words here -- of the historic power imbalance 17 International Association, that it has been very well 17 between former child migrants and the institutions in 18 received, very well used as well, and should continue. 18 whose care they were abused as children; is that right? 19 Q. Can you tell the Chair and panel a little bit about the 19 A. Mmm. 20 International Association you have mentioned and how 20 Q. Is it summarised in this way, that it's often regarded, 21 that organisation fits with your work? 21 as you have said, as adding insult to injury in 22 A. The International Association of Former Child Migrants 22 a colloquial sense, but what you are talking about here 23 and Their Families, they are an advisory group to the 23 are practices and attitudes that compound the initial 24 trust. They raise issues that are outstanding in the 24 harm; is that right? 25 migrant community. They are, if you like, the 25 A. Yes, I think.

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1 Q. Perhaps you could give a couple of examples of that sort 1 things which we need to be very sensitive about when we 2 of phenomenon in practice? 2 are in the services to these -- on these very issues. 3 A. I think I could perhaps best describe it in this way. 3 I hope there will be a point at which we can talk about 4 Could we begin to imagine how difficult it is for 4 these values. They are about values in a greater way. 5 someone to go back to an agency, a government, 5 It is about compounding the initial abuse. 6 a department, or whatever, to discuss and to talk about 6 Q. Is this right, that one, as you have described it, 7 these very issues? First of all, that would be 7 simple but common example of this phenomenon is refusals 8 extremely difficult and painful. 8 by certain agencies to divulge information that would 9 The trust has seen practices over the last 20, if 9 enable former child migrants to find their families? 10 not longer, years which, quite frankly, leaves one in 10 A. Oh, yes, that's a clear example of secondary abuse; that 11 despair around some of these practices. I think we 11 the first abuse, the primary abuse, we have all heard 12 really need to look at this. In relation to historic 12 of. We have all seen it, we are hearing it. The 13 abuse of children, I think we need considerable reforms 13 secondary abuse, once knowing that this injury has been 14 and frameworks, to safeguard those who have suffered so 14 caused, is to deny a remedy. 15 much now. 15 Q. You have made the point in your witness statement that, 16 We know and we hear and we learn that the 16 in the worst cases, where you have experienced this 17 perpetrators are still in the heads of the people who 17 happening, parents die before they can be traced by 18 have been hurt by them. 18 their former child migrant, now adult? 19 I think there are still some things -- I will give 19 A. Absolutely. A classic of that is in the '90s, '91 and 20 you a few examples. We have seen in our practice where 20 '92, when the governments were funding with very 21 family reunions, which have huge potential for 21 low-level funding and, over some years, no funding at 22 reconciliation and healing, where a mother, for example, 22 all. That's when there was so much hope that mothers 23 has been approached by the very agency, in a sense, that 23 and fathers would be alive, real hope then. Because of 24 told her child that she was dead, and now looking for 24 that lack of appreciation and funding, child migrants, 25 a reunion of sorts. You know, after all this catalogue 25 after all of this catalogue, then lost the opportunity

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1 of misery and crimes, we need to get this right. 1 to meet with their families. I think that we would 2 Wherever there is some hope, we have to do everything we 2 really say that is secondary abuse; that when we have, 3 can by everybody to help it work. 3 and others, over a range of things told you about the 4 We would say, and my colleagues would support this, 4 primary abuse and you have had some responsibility for 5 that in this particular area, independence is vital. It 5 that primary abuse, to then behave in that way, 6 is vital. So I would like to explore that at some time 6 compounding the initial abuse, the secondary abuse, and 7 further. 7 we would like to explore that further. 8 In terms of more recent things that we observe and 8 Q. You have described that not only as secondary abuse but 9 see and the child migrants talk to us about are issues 9 that sort of practice having the potential for 10 of redress, for example, and we have looked at this. 10 retraumatising the individual? 11 I will just give you one example of a child migrant 11 A. Yes. 12 who went to talk to the organisation that had been part 12 Q. Is that right? 13 of her abuse in relation to a redress discussion, and 13 A. Yes. Absolutely right. 14 she was told, harshly, "Why are you here taking our 14 Q. You have alluded in your witness statement, and just 15 pensions from us?" This is somebody who had been 15 briefly in your evidence, to situations where a former 16 terribly abused in the care of this organisation. This 16 child migrant has tried to reunite with his or her 17 was about redress for that abuse. And the power and 17 family -- 18 control was still there: "Why are you here taking away 18 A. Mmm. 19 our pensions?" I would like to think we need to have 19 Q. -- but because that reunion has not been handled 20 a debate, when we talk about historic abuse, well, it is 20 properly, it has been what you have described as 21 not historic for child migrants, it is every day. And 21 a failed family reunion; it hasn't worked as well as it 22 the services need to bear that in mind. 22 could have done if they had been properly supported. Is 23 So secondary abuse is a wide issue. It is used 23 that right? 24 quite a lot in diagnostic terms, of post-traumatic 24 A. That's absolutely right. We could give you case 25 stress disorder, triggers, flashbacks, all of those 25 examples of that, and they are, themselves, distressing.

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1 We would consider that secondary abuse, ie, not putting 1 If that is right, Chair, I would invite you to rise 2 the child migrant at the heart of all you do in these 2 until 1.45 pm. 3 circumstances. 3 THE CHAIR: Thank you. And thank you very much, 4 Q. Is this right, that you have expressed the view, from 4 Dr Humphreys. We will see you again in part 2. 5 your experience, that sometimes those attempted family 5 (The witness withdrew) 6 reunions that don't work are particularly difficult 6 (12.41 pm) 7 because the fear of rejection is a constant anxiety for 7 (The short adjournment) 8 former child migrants, so it is particularly 8 (1.48 pm) 9 traumatising if there is an attempt to reunite them with 9 MS HILL: Good afternoon, Chair and panel. Our proposal for 10 their family that doesn't work terribly well. Is that 10 the next hour will be to hear evidence in relation to 11 right? 11 chapter 3 of the expert report, which, Chair, as you 12 A. That's correct. 12 know, deals with issues around the structure and 13 Q. You have made the point that this work around reuniting 13 operation of the child migration schemes, which is 14 families is highly specialist and needs to be done by 14 a matter that Professor Lynch in particular I think is 15 agencies who are independent from the initial 15 going to deal with. Our intention will then be to rise 16 institutions or organisations that separated children 16 at 2.45 pm to allow for the videolink to be set up. 17 from their families? 17 PROFESSOR GORDON LYNCH (continued) 18 A. Of course. How could we ever, given this catalogue of 18 PROFESSOR STEPHEN CONSTANTINE (continued) 19 crimes, believe any other? 19 Questions by MS HILL 20 Q. Dr Humphreys, just one point of clarification, I'm sorry 20 MS HILL: Professor Lynch, I think you are still under your 21 if it was my question that wasn't helpful. You have 21 affirmation or your oath, so there is no need for you to 22 talked a little bit about the funding for the 22 be reaffirmed or resworn. 23 restoration fund and you mentioned the figure of I think 23 Professor Lynch, can I ask you some questions, 24 GBP6 million. Is that the figure that is in fact used 24 please, about chapter 3 of your report to try to help 25 to help pay for airfares and things of that nature and 25 the Chair and panel understand, is this right, the quite

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1 there is a different funding stream that goes directly 1 complex relationships and structure of child migration 2 to the Child Migrants Trust? 2 schemes. Is that a fair, very introductory summary, 3 A. Yes, there are two streams. One is the core funding for 3 that these are quite complicated arrangements between 4 the social work service, which is quite separate, and 4 a range of different institutions? 5 the funding we have mentioned which is exclusively for 5 PROF LYNCH: That's right. There are also variations 6 the Family Restoration Fund. 6 I think we may then look at in more detail tomorrow 7 MS HILL: Chair, those are all the questions I have and 7 between different national schemes. Perhaps one of 8 there is no Rule 10 application to ask any further 8 the first major differences to flag up with that is that 9 questions. Those are all the questions I have for 9 the child migration schemes to Australia obviously 10 Dr Humphreys, unless you or the panel have any 10 involved a large number of voluntary societies and quite 11 questions. 11 a complex administrative mechanism involving different 12 THE CHAIR: No, we have no questions, Ms Hill. Shall we now 12 levels of government with that. 13 take a break for lunch or do you have -- what's the 13 Whereas the scheme to New Zealand was a scheme where 14 proposal? 14 children were placed with individual foster families, 15 MS HILL: Chair, I think our proposal in terms of 15 not in residential institutions, and only through the 16 the evidence was that Dr Humphreys' evidence has now 16 work of one voluntary society, the Royal Overseas 17 concluded for this part. I think it is anticipated she 17 League. 18 will of course return in the second phase of 18 In cases of Southern Rhodesia and the Fairbridge 19 the hearings. Our proposal would be, and I hope the 19 Farm School in British Columbia, again in Canada and 20 other core participants have been made aware of this, to 20 Southern Rhodesia in the post-war context, we are 21 take a break now for lunch, to perhaps resume at 21 looking at the work simply of one voluntary society in 22 1.45 pm. Then I think we can hear some of the expert 22 each country. 23 evidence, because our experts are here and able to give 23 So the Australian system is a more complex one by 24 evidence. Then we will perhaps take a break at 2.45 pm 24 virtue of the number of organisations involved. I think 25 to allow for the videolink to Canada to be set up. 25 we will tease out some of the other differences between

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1 them now. 1 have, we will continue to learn more, I'm sure. 2 MS HILL: Looking across all of the different countries and 2 MS HILL: Is this right, that just very briefly, you have 3 all of the different schemes, one needs to have regard 3 been following the evidence so far over the last few 4 to the role of -- both local and central government 4 days and even some of the evidence you have heard in the 5 played some part; is that right? 5 last few days is beginning to trigger issues you would 6 PROF LYNCH: In terms of local authorities, there was -- 6 like to understand a bit better? 7 MS HILL: Sorry, forgive me, Professor Lynch, I will go 7 PROF LYNCH: That's absolutely correct. We have begun to 8 through the detail of what each does, but just to give 8 flag some of those issues up with you. 9 the headline, there is a role for local and central 9 It won't be fair to individuals concerned to raise 10 government and, is this right, there are also 10 some of those issues in detail before we have had more 11 responsibilities for, in some of the cases, national 11 of a chance to look with you at some of the information, 12 charities, churches and religious orders. They play 12 but a lot of these issues relate particularly to the 13 some part? 13 migration schemes to Australia and we are very grateful 14 PROF LYNCH: Correct, yes. 14 to the former child migrants who have gone through the 15 MS HILL: When one looks at the countries to which children 15 very difficult process of giving evidence, both about 16 were migrated, in some instances there is a role for the 16 their experiences but also you've gone through in some 17 national government and/or the provincial and state 17 detail with the LEM 3 migration forms that people have 18 governments of those countries? 18 completed and they have raised a number of procedural 19 PROF LYNCH: That's right. 19 issues for us that I think, when we look in more detail 20 MS HILL: Is this right, the relationships between all of 20 at issues of consent and selection of children, we would 21 those different parties, if you like, varied, and you 21 want to investigate those in more detail then, but 22 said in paragraph 3.1.1 of your report that complexity 22 I think there are also wider issues about organisational 23 was the reality and that that had consequences? 23 relationships, particularly in relation to the 24 PROF LYNCH: Yes, that's correct. So the way in which these 24 Australian schemes that I think we can flag up for you 25 different relationships worked out between different 25 probably more tomorrow.

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1 organisations had a material effect on the conditions 1 MS HILL: Thank you. Is this right, that as well as that 2 that the children were living in. 2 broad complexity about relationships between the 3 MS HILL: Is this right, that what you are hoping to do, 3 different organisations and institutions, the location 4 certainly in this part of your evidence, is help the 4 of legal responsibility for the children varies as well, 5 Chair and panel understand to some degree, provide 5 and that gives an added complexity to this topic? 6 a map, you say, through these complexities, but is this 6 PROF LYNCH: That's correct. We are still learning, in 7 right, that you are still learning about how these 7 relation to the Canadian case, what the legal framework 8 relationships operated in practice? 8 for that actually would have been. But one of 9 PROF LYNCH: That's right. I mean, even in the course of 9 the common features, what we know, for the schemes to 10 doing this research, we discovered another migration 10 Australia, New Zealand and Southern Rhodesia is that 11 scheme that we weren't aware of before. I should also 11 at the point of departure from this country, children 12 say that the disclosure of documents that you will be 12 fell under the guardianship of the receiving national 13 receiving for the inquiry is unprecedented in terms of 13 government. That had a very significant impact on -- it 14 the access that any researcher would have had in 14 basically constrained the legal powers that the 15 relation to this. I think perhaps one of 15 UK Government then had in terms of their ability to 16 the regrettable things in terms of the public 16 intervene in children's care, and when we, for example, 17 understanding of the history of these schemes -- perhaps 17 think about the 1948 Children Act that we talked about 18 building on something Mr Hill said yesterday -- that 18 on the first day of evidence, one of the parts of 19 access to relevant archival material has been very, very 19 the 1948 Children Act gave the Home Office the power 20 uneven where, with some organisations, you can identify 20 to -- well, it required the Home Office to draw up 21 an archivist and a catalogue of material and other 21 a register of voluntary homes in Britain that had to 22 archives where I simply still wouldn't know where the 22 operate, that had to be registered with the Home Office, 23 archives are actually housed at all or how you would 23 but it also, by virtue of that, gave the Home Office the 24 access them. That sets the conditions. So I think, 24 power to deregister homes. Obviously, if there were 25 with the full disclosure of documents that you will 25 concerns -- we will return to this in the summer -- with

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1 the quality of care in a residential home in Britain, it 1 So there is a much longer history of local 2 would be possible for the Home Office effectively to 2 authorities using voluntary societies to migrate 3 close that home down. Once a child was removed from 3 children overseas that goes back to the 1870s. 4 within the legal authority of the UK Government, the 4 MS HILL: Is this what you are trying to convey in the 5 Home Office obviously would no longer have had that 5 report, that because those children who were in local 6 power. Again, when we think perhaps more tomorrow about 6 authority care were under the legal care of that local 7 what was actually known at the time about some of 7 authority, that they would have a particular 8 the conditions in residential institutions, for example 8 responsibility to make decisions about whether that 9 in Australia, that I think will be a very significant 9 child should be migrated? Is that what you are trying 10 point to bear in mind. 10 to convey? 11 PROF CONSTANTINE: Can I add a point to that? This 11 PROF LYNCH: Yes, that's right. So my understanding would 12 distinction between the National Government in 12 have been that for children in local authority care in 13 Australia, the Commonwealth Government, and the State 13 that kind of late-Victorian period, there would have 14 Government, because what we are aware is that this legal 14 been a requirement for them to have been presented in 15 power of guardianship is transferred to the centre but 15 front of a magistrate to confirm their consent to go 16 then goes down to the state. It is difficult -- we were 16 overseas, which wasn't the case for children, 17 talking about this at lunchtime -- to tease out what 17 I understand, sent directly from the care of voluntary 18 relationship remains between the Commonwealth Government 18 homes. 19 of Australia and the various State Governments 19 MS HILL: We will come, in due course, when we hear from you 20 underneath -- so that tiering makes it more -- 20 about chapter 8 of your report, to look at this in more 21 MS HILL: We might come back to that in a little more 21 detail, but is this right, that you said, as far as 22 detail. We may. 22 those children who were in local authority care were 23 Can we turn now to look, please, at those children 23 concerned, there is some evidence that this particular 24 who were in local authority care, first of all. It is 24 responsibility to them, to form -- well, to child 25 right, I think, to observe, as you do at 3.1.4 of your 25 migrants, as they then were, was acknowledged and

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1 report, that the great majority of children who were in 1 exercised? 2 local authority care remained in the UK? 2 PROF LYNCH: Yes, certainly through the Doyle Report there 3 PROF LYNCH: That's correct, yes. 3 was a sense that it was very important to maintain some 4 MS HILL: Some, albeit, as you say in the report, 4 kind of monitoring system for children in care in 5 a decreasing number, were migrated overseas? 5 Canada. Whether that always worked as effectively as 6 PROF LYNCH: That's correct. Yes. 6 Doyle intended is not entirely clear. But there was 7 MS HILL: Is this right, that you have said in your report 7 certainly that expectation. 8 that for those children who were in local authority 8 MS HILL: Does that continue, just in a brief sense -- does 9 care, in historical sequence, boards of guardians, 9 that particular responsibility of those who were from 10 public assistance committees and then Child Welfare 10 local authority care that were migrated, that 11 Departments retained a particular duty of care to those 11 responsibility of the local authority, do you think that 12 children in terms of selection, transport, reception and 12 does continue over time? 13 after care; is that right? 13 PROF LYNCH: This is one of the major gaps in our knowledge 14 PROF LYNCH: That's right. So the migration of children 14 at the moment. It relates to, in the post-war period, 15 from local authority care had a much longer history that 15 pretty much all of -- the whole process around the 16 we referred to back on the opening day of the inquiry. 16 migration of children in local authority care. What we 17 So from the very early 1870s, philanthropists like 17 do know is that there was a legal requirement that 18 Maria Rye and Annie Macpherson were effectively 18 children who were in local authority care receive the 19 soliciting Poor Law Unions to migrate their children 19 consent of the Home Secretary -- probably, in practice, 20 overseas, which some Poor Law Unions saw as being 20 a Home Office civil servant -- for them to be migrated 21 advantageous in terms of reducing costs, which were the 21 under section 17 of the 1948 Children Act. Having seen 22 circumstances that then led the local government board 22 early LEM 3 forms in these hearings, we are not sure 23 which oversaw that public funding to institute the 23 that local authorities actually necessarily always 24 Doyle Report that we have heard discussed, I think, 24 sought that permission appropriately. 25 a bit before. 25 MS HILL: Pausing there, what you are saying, I think, you

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1 are dealing with the role of central government now, 1 memo from the 1947 -- from a Home Office civil servant. 2 that central government was responsible through the 2 MS HILL: I will bring that up in due course. Which you 3 Home Office, perhaps a civil servant, for approving the 3 have uncovered, I think, is this right, between your 4 applications from local authorities and I think what you 4 first and later reports? 5 are saying is that some of the evidence that you have 5 PROF LYNCH: That's right. That would give us some 6 heard in the last few days suggests to you that that 6 indication of -- we do actually know that the 7 might not always have occurred even though it should 7 Home Office, at quite an early stage, had some fairly 8 have done; is that right? 8 detailed ideas about how the child migration scheme 9 PROF LYNCH: That's correct. I think one of the things it 9 should appropriately work in the post-war context still, 10 would be helpful to see if the full disclosure of 10 before they realised that they weren't actually getting 11 documents will help us with is whether we can understand 11 legal powers to control that through the 1948 12 anything more about the notification process that the 12 Children Act. 13 local authorities went through in terms of getting that 13 So that memo, if we look at that in due course, 14 Home Office consent. Because obviously in Home Office 14 I think will give us some more detailed indication of 15 reports, annual reports, we are seeing that numbers are 15 what their thinking was. We don't know to what extent 16 showing up of children being given permission to go 16 that actually informed the process by which those 17 overseas, but we don't know if that is the whole story 17 decisions were made, but it is an indication. 18 or what the process was and how that related to the 18 MS HILL: I will bring that up in due course. Just by way 19 separate, possibly, process of applying for migration 19 of summary, that helps us understand, or might help us 20 through Australia House. 20 understand, the process or the thinking around 21 So there's a great deal where we just haven't seen 21 assessments of children, but is this right, that you 22 records that would help us with that at all, I'm afraid, 22 don't really have an understanding about whether the 23 at the moment. 23 government rejected applications on behalf of some 24 MS HILL: Is that partly because your understanding is that 24 children and you don't really yet perhaps have an 25 sometimes personal records held by local authorities 25 understanding of how scrupulously those assessments were

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1 have not been retained over the years? Is that right? 1 carried out? Is that right? 2 PROF LYNCH: That's right. It may be that there may have 2 PROF LYNCH: That's absolutely right. No, we have no 3 been some sifting essentially through national archives 3 knowledge of that. 4 where that may not have been retained. It may also be 4 MS HILL: Obviously if you can assist further on that 5 that for some local authorities, this was such 5 between now and the July hearings, then you will do so? 6 a relatively marginal part of their work they may not -- 6 PROF LYNCH: We will do so. 7 it may be difficult for them to trace where those 7 MS HILL: Let's perhaps bring up the Home Office memo you 8 records are held. I think there may have been some 8 have referred to. I think in your report you have 9 issues with that with the Historical Institutional Abuse 9 quoted the memo in full, in your later report, your 10 Inquiry in Northern Ireland. 10 third report, EWM000229_011. This is part of your third 11 MS HILL: Is this right also, that insofar as an individual 11 report, Professor. I think what you have done at the 12 case file about a former child migrant might give some 12 foot of that page is summarised this memo, is this 13 clues to the process to be adopted, those have not been 13 right, because the memo itself was one that you read in 14 made publicly available. So you, as a researcher, have 14 the national archives, and I think you just copied 15 not been able to access those? 15 verbatim the wording of that memo? 16 PROF LYNCH: No. If they still exist, we wouldn't normally 16 PROF LYNCH: It is not the full memo but it is a very 17 have access to that. 17 extensive quotation from it. 18 MS HILL: Does this therefore follow, that although you have 18 MS HILL: Perhaps if we look to the bottom third of this 19 said in your report that the role of central government 19 page, we can see the memorandum you are referring to is 20 was in part to assess and approve applications, you have 20 a Home Office memorandum from the children's department 21 a lack of understanding about how that assessment 21 within the Home Office, dated 26 June 1947, which sets 22 process actually works in practice? 22 out what you describe as "relatively detailed thinking 23 PROF LYNCH: We have -- we would hope -- I think it may be 23 about the criteria which should be used and", pausing 24 possible for the summer hearings to provide more 24 there, "which suggests a presumption against the 25 evidence on this. We have provided one quite lengthy 25 migration of a child. Without further information, we

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1 cannot be sure if these criteria were consistently 1 MS HILL: -- or practical issues or interests of other 2 applied in subsequent Home Office reviews of 2 organisations? 3 applications for the migration ... but they do reflect 3 PROF LYNCH: Exactly. 4 the reasons given by Ms Wansborough-Jones to the 4 PROF CONSTANTINE: Could I add to that: 1947, of course, 5 Overseas Migration Board in 1955 [which I think we heard 5 child migration schemes are starting to be put to 6 about before] as to why few children in local authority 6 government, UK Government, and Australia is very keen. 7 care [were selected] for migration." 7 So it is a very pertinent, live political issue when 8 PROF LYNCH: That's right. So when we are talking about our 8 that particular memorandum is drafted. 9 lack of knowledge of local authority process, what I am 9 PROF LYNCH: Exactly, yes. 10 specifically referring to there is we don't know how 10 MS HILL: Is this right, that it goes on to say, a few lines 11 that administrative process works in practice or how 11 down: 12 those selection criteria work in practice, but we do 12 "Where a child has absolutely no relations in this 13 know that a number of local authorities were unhappy 13 country and no prospect of being adopted or boarded out 14 with the practice of child migration and 14 and, therefore, he is likely to remain an institution 15 Miss Wansborough-Jones, who was actually part of 15 child all his life and have only himself to rely on, we 16 the Ross Fact-Finding Mission, that we will hear more 16 should not prevent emigration, even where it means 17 about tomorrow, also gave quite detailed evidence to the 17 simply transfer to an institution in another country." 18 Overseas Migration Board in 1955 where she set out in 18 Pausing there, what that seems to say is that there 19 some detail why she thought that there would be very few 19 might be some cases where emigration might be an 20 children in her care within the local authority of 20 acceptable option if the child has absolutely no 21 Essex County Council who would be suitable for 21 relatives in this country, it might be acceptable, on 22 migration. Her arguments there reflect very much also 22 this memo, to transfer that child from one institution 23 those set out by the Home Office in this memo. 23 in the UK to one in another country. Is that how you 24 MS HILL: Is this right, that the significance of this 24 read it? 25 particular memo that you draw to the panel's attention 25 PROF LYNCH: Absolutely. So the two brakes for the

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1 is that it is 1947, so it is several years before the 1 Home Office here on child migration, one would be if 2 report in 1955. 2 there is any prospect at all of a child renewing family 3 PROF LYNCH: That's right. 3 contact, and that would include children placed under 4 MS HILL: It is just immediately after the war. It is also 4 what was known as a fit person order, a court order 5 a memo from within the Home Office. So it is not a memo 5 under -- of the juvenile court, through the 1933 6 from within a local authority. 6 Children and Young Persons' Act, where a child had been 7 PROF LYNCH: That's right. 7 placed in the care of a local authority or voluntary 8 MS HILL: I don't know the best way to do this. If you look 8 association or another person's care through a court 9 at the bottom of the page, without reading it out in its 9 order, through issues of child neglect or protection. 10 full form, if I try to pull out what are perhaps the 10 But even in those cases, if there was any potential at 11 relevant factors, or perhaps it is better for you to 11 all for re-establishing contact with a family, it was 12 take us through this. But it talks about, does it not, 12 far better for the child to stay in this country so that 13 at the beginning, the need to consider each child's 13 family relationships could be re-established in the 14 particular position; is that right? 14 future. 15 PROF LYNCH: That's right. So there's a discussion -- 15 Similarly, if there were any prospects at all that 16 I would actually need to go back and double-check the 16 a child could be fostered out in this country, again, 17 context on this, but a discussion -- you will see the 17 thinking about the Curtis principles about the primary 18 reference there to national and wider considerations, 18 importance of children growing up in a home-like 19 which I think is around wider kind of policy interests 19 environment, that, again, would be given the priority 20 in terms of collaboration, perhaps particularly with 20 here. So the emphasis here is much more on the child's 21 Australia, around this. I could go back and check that 21 emotional world, the importance of growing up in 22 more. But what they are saying here is that actually it 22 a home-like environment, ideally maintaining family 23 should be the child's interests that are paramount. 23 bonds wherever that is possible, and that migration 24 MS HILL: And not broader government policy -- 24 should only be considered if a child was neither likely 25 PROF LYNCH: Exactly. 25 to be boarded out -- slightly difficult to see the

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1 circumstance in which that would be the case -- but 1 Before we leave this memo, going back up to the top, 2 either wouldn't be boarded out or there were no 2 Professor, is this right, that even in those cases where 3 prospects at all for any ongoing family bonds, and then 3 the memo suggested that emigration would be appropriate, 4 the child was themselves somewhat enthusiastic about 4 about four lines down -- so that is the child who 5 migration, and there is an interesting qualification 5 doesn't have the prospects of re-establishing a family 6 about that in the memo here as well. 6 life that you have described -- does it say this: 7 MS HILL: Those points of detail you have borne out, if you 7 "In such a case, there would not seem to be any harm 8 scroll down about 15 lines, it deals with those cases 8 in his emigrating but, even so, we should be satisfied 9 where I think what you are saying is the memo suggests 9 that he will be properly looked after and have an 10 that migration would not be appropriate. It says, 10 opportunity of learning a trade which will support him 11 I think -- is this right?: 11 when he leaves the home. The child of course must 12 "Where a child in an institution has a family or 12 himself be willing to emigrate, but it is very doubtful 13 relative to whom he might be able to return or a chance 13 what importance can be attached to a child's statement 14 of being adopted or boarded out, we should discourage 14 of his willingness to emigrate. He can hardly have 15 emigration, particularly if it would simply be 15 sufficient knowledge or judgment to take a reasoned 16 emigration to a home or institution. It might be 16 decision on his own future and is, in all probability, 17 a question of trying to balance the possible material 17 influenced by pictures and stories of life in, say, 18 and physical benefits to be obtained from life in 18 Australia, which may be heavily glamorised." 19 Australia while remaining an institution child against 19 Is that right? 20 the possibility of finding a home of his own in the 20 A. That's absolutely right. In some ways, I think perhaps 21 perhaps narrower physical limits of this country." 21 particularly for a wider public audience, watching this 22 The memo continues: 22 evidence, there is something perhaps quite startling 23 "I think it would be wrong to agree to the 23 about the discontinuity between what we see here from 24 emigration of a child for whom there were prospects of 24 the Home Office in 1947 and some of the evidence we have 25 a home life of his own in Britain even if the prospects 25 been provided before in terms of the discontinuity,

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1 are remote at the time of the application for his 1 thinking particularly about Dr Humphreys' evidence this 2 emigration and even if that home life could never be as 2 morning about the processes of very much family 3 high materially as possible institutional care in 3 disruption around these schemes, and what the 4 Australia. I do not think it is right to approve of 4 Home Office is saying here. I think trying to 5 the emigration of children whose parents do not want 5 understand this discontinuity between what was known and 6 them to go." 6 thought at the time and what appeared to be obvious 7 Is that right? 7 failings of the scheme, from our perspective, where 8 PROF LYNCH: That's right. 8 I think criticisms we may make of the schemes now were 9 MS HILL: It goes on: 9 also made at the time then and still understanding why 10 "Even if the homes from which children may come may 10 these schemes continued would seem to be a central 11 be bad and the prospects of improvement remote, to 11 issue. 12 remove the children abroad may well remove also any 12 MS HILL: The discontinuity you are referring to, if I have 13 encouragement to the parents to make efforts to better 13 understood it correctly, is, is this right, you are 14 themselves and their home conditions. A special care 14 suggesting there is potentially a disjoint between what 15 must be taken where the child is very young and has been 15 the memo is expecting to happen and what you are 16 away from his home for only a short period. In such 16 suggesting some of the evidence might indicate actually 17 a case, a decision should clearly be postponed for at 17 happened? 18 least some years." 18 PROF LYNCH: Exactly. There seems to be a very stark 19 Then it goes on to deal with the "fit person" 19 contrast between the accounts we have had of people's 20 children cases where there were additional legal 20 separation from family, the disruption of family bonds, 21 requirements. Is that right? 21 the difficulties of renewing contact with family and the 22 PROF LYNCH: That's right, yes. I don't know if you want me 22 policy framework that's being articulated here. 23 to talk about these legal requirements of the "fit 23 PROF CONSTANTINE: Again, if I can add to that, a lot of 24 person" case? 24 this is derived from the Curtis Report, the Children Act 25 MS HILL: We will talk about those in one moment, if we may. 25 and the responsibility the Home Office has now taken on.

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1 It is the Home Office' new vision of what childcare 1 authority, there's a requirement for the Home Secretary 2 should be like in this country that comes through in 2 to be satisfied about the conditions in which a child 3 this memorandum. 3 will be received overseas, which, strangely, isn't 4 MS HILL: Returning then, if we may, Professor, to the issue 4 present in the amendment of the 1933 Act. Whether that 5 of the process by which local authority children were 5 made any material difference, we don't know. 6 migrated and the approval given for that, and I hope 6 The other thing to add with that is the 1933 Act 7 I can do justice to what is a fairly tricky legal 7 appears to have run through until it was repealed in 8 framework, but I will try. You have been asked, 8 1969. So any child in the care of a voluntary society 9 I think, very recently, a question about this particular 9 under that court order would have -- the voluntary 10 issue by one of the core participants. Is this right, 10 society would have been required to seek the consent of 11 that there were particular provisions in place for 11 the Home Secretary before that child was migrated, and 12 children, all children, in local authority care to be 12 that runs through pretty much the whole period in which 13 migrated, the consent of the Home Secretary had to be 13 we are looking at the post-war operation of the schemes. 14 secured? 14 MS HILL: Can I just help, I hope, the Chair and panel by 15 PROF LYNCH: That's right. 15 looking at the detail of what that consent required? 16 MS HILL: But there were particular provisions about those 16 EWM000367_001. Professor, this is your very recent 17 who were in the care of what's called "a fit and proper 17 answer to a particular question on this topic. At the 18 person", and they are the "fit person" children; is that 18 foot of that page, you have said there appears to be 19 right? 19 a discrepancy between the requirements for approval by 20 PROF LYNCH: That's right. 20 the Home Secretary for, firstly, the migration of 21 MS HILL: That legal obligation comes from section 62 of 21 children in the care of local authorities, then you go 22 the Children and Young Persons' Act 1933; is that right? 22 over the page, and, secondly, the migration of children 23 PROF LYNCH: Yes. It's actually section 84 I think also 23 under one of these fit person orders. Then if we just 24 specifically deals with the emigration of children 24 focus in, please, on the 1933 Act at the top of that 25 within that 1933 Act. 25 second page, EWM000367_002, at the top of that page, if

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1 MS HILL: I don't want to trouble the panel too much with it 1 we can focus in on the elements of the approval 2 but section 62 is the fit and proper person order and 2 mechanism, if one looks at the 1933 Act, the second line 3 section 85 says, for somebody who was subject to one of 3 down, that allowed the Home Secretary to approve 4 those orders, even if the fit and proper person is 4 a child's migration if he believed that, firstly, 5 a voluntary organisation, then the Home Secretary's 5 migration would benefit the child; secondly, that the 6 consent has to be sought? 6 child had consented or that the conditions concerning 7 PROF LYNCH: That's right. 7 a child too young to consent applied; thirdly, that 8 MS HILL: It is a slight gloss on the distinction between 8 a parent had been consulted, or could not practically be 9 local authority care and those in the care of voluntary 9 consulted. Then you go on to say this: 10 societies, because if there is a child who is in the 10 "With respect to the emigration of a child in local 11 care of a voluntary society under a fit and proper 11 authority care, the 1948 Act repeated those words but 12 person order, again the Home Secretary's consent was 12 also added the requirement that suitable arrangements 13 required? 13 have been, or will be, made for the child's reception 14 PROF LYNCH: That's right. So that's an important 14 and welfare in the country to which he is going." 15 clarification to make here. Effectively, what we have 15 Is that what you're -- 16 here are actually two pieces of legislation that run 16 PROF LYNCH: Yes, that's the point I was trying to make 17 alongside each other. Obviously, the 1933 Children and 17 there. 18 Young Persons' Act precedes the 1948 Act but is actually 18 MS HILL: I think, although you have gone into this in 19 amended by the 1948 Act. The requirements around the 19 a little more detail, I hope I do it justice by saying 20 Home Secretary giving their consent for a child migrated 20 this: you don't really know yet and you may never 21 who has been under a fit person court order is very 21 understand how that difference in criteria applied in 22 similar to the wording for that given for children 22 practice. Is that right? 23 requiring the Home Secretary's consent under the 1948 23 PROF LYNCH: I think that's right. I think one of 24 Act. The one difference between the two phrasings is 24 the things we are still trying to work out is, whether 25 that, in the 1948 Act, the children in the care of local 25 there was a difference between the policy aspirations

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1 that governmental organisations had in relation to these 1 migration. 2 schemes and the actual administrative processes through 2 PROF LYNCH: Exactly. 3 which they operated, whether -- because there seems to 3 MS HILL: Can I move on now, please, Professor, from the 4 be quite a lot of care implied for the interests of 4 issues around approval from the Home Office for the 5 the child in some of the policy statements, but whether 5 migration of children to deal with the second aspect of 6 that was necessarily worked out in the way that the 6 central government responsibility. Is this right, that 7 schemes were administered, we wouldn't assume that that 7 as well as providing that role of approving migration in 8 would be the case. 8 some cases, that central government's role was to 9 MS HILL: Just finally, though, please, if we can go to 9 provide partial funding and subsidy for these schemes 10 EWM000367_003 over the page, you are referring back in 10 through the Empire Settlement Act of 1922? 11 paragraph 8 of this document to the Home Office memo 11 PROF LYNCH: That's correct. This is where we get into some 12 that we have just looked at. I think what you have 12 variations between the national schemes. I have to say, 13 summarised here is that there is some suggestion in that 13 for the Fairbridge scheme, we haven't got any direct 14 memorandum that thought needed to be given anyway to why 14 archival evidence yet that Empire Settlement Act funding 15 children who were appropriate children for a fit person 15 was provided for that. But I have to say, if it wasn't, 16 order would be migrated at all? Is that right? 16 that would have been unusual, in terms of the operations 17 PROF LYNCH: Yes. There are two issues that the original 17 of the Fairbridge Society, for them to have run a scheme 18 Home Office memo point out. One is that to migrate 18 that wasn't seeking Empire Settlement Act funding. 19 a child under a fit person order, if the child was 19 But the exception to this, which we will look at 20 simply sent overseas on that order, then effectively the 20 probably in more detail tomorrow, would have been the 21 parents of the child would never have the right to 21 child migration schemes to New Zealand where children 22 reclaim that child at all, because the Home Office 22 weren't sent overseas through Empire Settlement Act 23 worked out that, once the child is overseas, outside of 23 funding. So certainly Empire Settlement Act funding 24 UK legal jurisdiction simply with the geographical 24 applied to children sent overseas to Australia and to 25 distance, the chances of reclaiming the child are 25 Southern Rhodesia and possibly probably post-war Canada,

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1 actually very, very unlikely, even if potentially 1 but not New Zealand. 2 legally possible. I'm not even sure if it would be 2 Would you like me to explain a little bit more what 3 legally possible. So there is a problem that a child 3 the funding elements of that -- 4 could be under a court order, removed from family care 4 MS HILL: We will come to deal with funding in a slightly 5 and then sent overseas with the family unable to reclaim 5 discrete way later on. But in terms of the general role 6 the child. 6 of each of the parties in these schemes, some of 7 At the same time, if the fit person order was 7 the money was coming from central government? 8 revoked before the child was sent overseas, the 8 PROF LYNCH: That's right, yes. 9 Home Office seems to be implying that may be a source of 9 MS HILL: For some of the countries? 10 concern in cases where there might be child protection 10 PROF LYNCH: Exactly. 11 issues, where a family could then actually reclaim 11 MS HILL: Is this right, that those institutions overseas 12 a child back prior to the point of migration because the 12 which received child migrants had to be formally 13 fit person order had been stopped before migration. 13 approved by the government as fit for purpose so that 14 But then the other issue is that they're saying that 14 they could receive those subsidies? 15 there may well be, for children placed under these 15 PROF LYNCH: That's right. We know most about how this 16 orders, some family structure around them still. There 16 operates in relation to Australia at this stage. In 17 may be some difficulties, of whatever kind, within that 17 fact, it was precisely the fact that the UK Government 18 family structure, but with that, we should be very 18 had this ongoing funding relationship with children that 19 cautious about sending a child overseas, again going 19 they'd sent overseas that seems to have been the thing 20 back to that point about if there is any opportunity to 20 that then entailed some requirement for approval on 21 restore a child's relationship with their families. 21 their part. 22 MS HILL: Even those children who have temporarily been put 22 The approval worked both in terms of approving 23 in the care of someone else, it is saying, if there is 23 organisations based in the UK -- actually, what that 24 a prospect of re-establishing that child with that 24 means is something we might return to later on. But 25 family, that that should be a presumption against 25 approving organisations based in the UK to be permitted

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1 to put forward children for migration with this funding. 1 migration scheme post war. We can actually see one of 2 But then also to approve residential institutions 2 these reviews I was talking about is one which leads to 3 overseas as being appropriate to receive children who 3 the renewal in 1957 in which it is evident from the 4 were sent over. 4 report that is made in 1956 that the Commonwealth 5 I have to say, at this stage, understanding -- 5 Relations Office signs up to most of the principles that 6 I think we will look more at the monitoring issues later 6 the Home Office has been enjoining to accept. So that 7 on, but our sense at this stage is that those inspection 7 is a very important line mark as well. 8 procedures in Australia were somewhat ad hoc, and there 8 PROF LYNCH: I think when Professor Constantine talks 9 certainly doesn't seem to have been something like an 9 tomorrow more about the Ross Fact-Finding Mission, that 10 annual inspection process. It seems to have been 10 I think is a key point in this history. To say that the 11 periodic and more fragmented. 11 Home Office and Commonwealth Relations Office kind of 12 MS HILL: I think you have a separate section in your 12 talk past each other, I wouldn't say that -- I think -- 13 report -- we will hear about the supervision structures 13 my sense so far is that, after that kind of early 14 later on. But I think what you're saying is, for now, 14 educational process from the Home Office and the 15 central government's role did involve some approval of 15 Commonwealth Relations Office, we see very little 16 both the sending and the receiving institutions. 16 dissent within the Commonwealth Relations Office towards 17 PROF LYNCH: That's right. Again, knowing most about the 17 Curtis principles in practice -- in theory, rather. 18 Australian case, that would primarily have been 18 Where the opposition does come from within the 19 conducted through the UK High Commissioner's office in 19 Commonwealth Relations Office is something called the 20 Canberra, and also other people who happened to be in 20 Overseas Migration Board, which is an advisory group 21 Australia and the Ross Fact-Finding Mission we will hear 21 chaired by a politician, chaired by a minister, within 22 about more tomorrow. 22 the department, which also involves other kind of 23 PROF CONSTANTINE: Again, if I can just add to something to 23 stakeholders and trade unions, academics, business, 24 that, it is because the Empire Settlement Act needs 24 a shipping company as well. There is more direct 25 repeated renewal as well. It was originally for 25 opposition to the Curtis Report from the Overseas

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1 15 years, from 1937 to 1952, but thereafter it's every 1 Migration Board and we see that coming through in a few 2 five years. So what we find in the records are 2 of their reports. 3 interdepartmental committees, the Home Office, the 3 So what happens I think -- I think we will keep 4 Commonwealth Relations Office, the Ministry of Labour, 4 returning to this -- with the Commonwealth Relations 5 someone from the Treasury, reviews whether funding 5 Office is that the primary policy priority for the 6 should go ahead for more Commonwealth settlement, as it 6 Commonwealth Relations Office is Commonwealth relations. 7 used to be called. Under that umbrella is always the 7 It's about maintaining strategic relationships with key 8 question about funding for child migration as well. So 8 Commonwealth partners, and so, for example, when we hear 9 there's every five years, you have to imagine, civil 9 more about the Ross Fact-Finding Mission tomorrow, in 10 servants get together to review all this, underneath 10 the year that that was being conducted and managed out, 11 which is also the particular concerns about the quality 11 as we shall see, by the Commonwealth Relations Office, 12 of the institutions overseas to which the children might 12 other things that were going on then in terms of 13 be sent. 13 Anglo-Australian relations were a negotiation of a major 14 MS HILL: I think what you have suggested at 3.1.8 of your 14 trade deal where, up to that point, Britain had been 15 report, and something you alluded to previously, both of 15 exporting -- getting a preferential export deal to 16 you, I think, was that what you had then was 16 Australia of around GBP100 million of exports, 17 a discussion between the Home Office and the 17 significantly a large amount of engineering equipment 18 Commonwealth Relations Office which may be operating 18 that the Australians wanted to renegotiate on less 19 across each other, if you like. There may be 19 favourable terms, and again, in that same year, in 1956, 20 differences of opinion between the two about whether 20 we have quite sensitive ongoing discussions and 21 there should be renewal. Is that a fair summary? 21 relationships between the Australian and 22 PROF CONSTANTINE: Yes. It is a fair summary also to say 22 British Government around the development of a permanent 23 the Home Office attempts a kind of educational process 23 nuclear testing site at Maralinga in -- which was the 24 to persuade the Commonwealth Relations Office as to what 24 first permanent nuclear testing site on the Australian 25 are the appropriate qualities to look for in the child 25 mainland where there was, in the middle of 1956,

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1 a fracturing political consent within Australia to that 1 any -- in the post-war period, any major policy 2 and growing public concern as well. 2 initiatives by the UK Government to encourage child 3 The Commonwealth Relations Office operated within 3 migration, although they are still very much implicated 4 a wider set of strategic concerns in terms of 4 in the running of these systems. Those initiatives tend 5 maintaining good relations with the 5 to come from overseas governments, from overseas 6 Australian Government in which that appears to be the 6 voluntary societies or from UK-based voluntary societies 7 operational priority for them. So they're not opposed 7 but where the UK Government, as we shall see, certainly 8 to the Curtis Report in principle, but that's not their 8 through the Commonwealth Relations Office, is reluctant 9 first concern there -- their commitment it would seem. 9 to resist those initiatives too strongly. 10 MS HILL: I would like to turn now to the role of 10 MS HILL: What you said, I think, is in the post-war period 11 the voluntary organisations. We have heard a lot about 11 the work of child migration was taken up with enthusiasm 12 local and central government. Is this right, that 12 by some voluntary organisations? 13 during the 19th century, charity homes for children in 13 PROF LYNCH: That's right. So -- I mean, it is worth 14 need had become very widespread for a range of different 14 remembering that for a number of organisations involved 15 organisations and perhaps for a range of different 15 in post-war child migration -- if we think about 16 reasons. Many of those local children's homes and 16 Dr Barnardo's Homes, the Salvation Army, National 17 charity homes did not engage in child migration at all. 17 Children's Homes, the Church of England Waifs and Strays 18 PROF LYNCH: That's correct. 18 Society which became the Children's Society or kind of 19 MS HILL: Several of them did. The manner in which they 19 more umbrella organisations within the Church of England 20 did, though, varies depending on which organisation one 20 or the Catholic Church -- all of those organisations had 21 is talking about? 21 a longer institutional history of sending children to 22 PROF LYNCH: Somewhat, though there is a fair degree of 22 Canada from the late 19th century onwards. 23 commonality with the Canadian schemes. 23 For many organisations, there was a kind of longer 24 MS HILL: You have said in your report that it has been 24 institutional memory of that. Fairbridge Society as 25 suggested before that child migration schemes were 25 well had been sending, in its initial name as The Child

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1 primarily initiated by governments, and voluntary 1 Emigration Society, children to Pinjarra since 1913 as 2 organisations later opted to participate. Can perhaps 2 well. So a lot of -- I think probably with the 3 you deal with that, Professor, as to whether you agree 3 exception, I think -- I may need to correct this later 4 with that proposition or not? 4 on, but I think probably with the exception of the Royal 5 PROF LYNCH: Yes, that's right. So I have seen one 5 Overseas League, I can't think of any sending 6 organisation to a previous inquiry suggest that 6 organisations in England and Wales that hadn't been 7 voluntary societies were essentially invited to 7 involved in some child migration activity before the 8 participate in child migration schemes by governments, 8 Second World War. 9 as a government initiative. That doesn't really accord 9 PROF CONSTANTINE: Yes. 10 with the full detail of what we see in the history. 10 MS HILL: Is this right, that some of the voluntary 11 Certainly with the initiation of the mass migration 11 societies, especially the larger ones like Barnardo's, 12 schemes to Canada, it's philanthropists like Maria Rye 12 National Children's Homes, Quarriers and the Catholic 13 and Annie Macpherson, who are setting up the schemes and 13 Care Homes, weren't solely dedicated to migration of 14 then approaching Poor Law Unions to say, "Actually, as 14 children and had many children that were not migrated 15 well as sending children in our own residential homes 15 but there were some voluntary organisations that were 16 overseas, we can also do this for you as well and 16 solely focused on migration. Is that a fair 17 provide that service for you". 17 distinction? 18 At the very least, there's a close collaboration 18 PROF LYNCH: Exactly. It may be helpful to differentiate 19 between voluntary associations and governments in the 19 between three different types of organisation. So there 20 post-war period, often overseas governments rather than 20 were child -- essentially, organisations that -- child 21 the UK Government. We may come back to this in more 21 welfare organisations, whether they are charities or 22 detail. Although obviously the UK Government is very 22 religious orders, providing residential institutions for 23 much implicated in the running of these schemes through 23 children, where child migration formed a relatively 24 the funding of them and through the monitoring processes 24 small part of their work. Though perhaps the scale of 25 that they undertook in relation to those, we don't see 25 that might actually vary depending on the organisation

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1 we are looking at. 1 the Federal Catholic Immigration Committee in Australia, 2 There were also -- 2 but both had a wider remit for ensuring the pastoral 3 MS HILL: Pausing there, examples of that sort of 3 support of migrants from their particular denomination. 4 organisation would be Barnardo's, National Children's 4 In relation to the Church of England Council for Empire 5 Home, Quarriers and Catholic Care Homes. 5 Settlement, it was actually specifically set up to help 6 PROF LYNCH: That's right, Catholic Care Homes, 6 administer applications for Empire Settlement Act 7 Children's Society homes, Sisters of Nazareth 7 funding for those who wanted assisted passages but who 8 residential institutions for children, yes. 8 wanted to do that through a kind of Anglican framework. 9 MS HILL: Is this right, although migration was only part of 9 So these were organisations which had a wider interest 10 the work of those organisations, it was, nevertheless, 10 in migration and in supporting assisted migration and 11 something that featured prominently, as we have heard, 11 where child migration formed one part of their work. 12 in their literature, their annual reports and their 12 PROF CONSTANTINE: Alongside adult migration. 13 publicity material. 13 MS HILL: But then the narrowest group, if you like, would 14 PROF LYNCH: Yes, it was in no way a hidden part of their -- 14 be those organisations -- is this right, this would 15 MS HILL: We have a reference I think you have given to some 15 include the Fairbridge Society and they are focused 16 of the literature that talks about the street pariah -- 16 solely on child migration; is that right? 17 I think you mentioned this before, Professor -- becoming 17 PROF LYNCH: That's right. So the Fairbridge Society and 18 a Canadian farmer, a brochure talking about 21,638 boys 18 Middlemore Homes would be examples of that, where the 19 and girls emigrated, 98 per cent are successful, cost 19 entire work of the society is around child migration. 20 only GBP10 per head, a good investment. That was in 20 MS HILL: The Rhodesia Fairbridge Memorial Association which 21 a very early brochure, I think. But they continue in 21 only migrated children to the Rhodesia College would be 22 a similar theme: 22 in a similar category; is that right? 23 "Dr Barnardo's Homes are Empire builders", "We know 23 PROF LYNCH: Exactly. 24 in Australia each boy and girl has wonderful 24 MS HILL: You have described the Middlemore Homes as 25 opportunities", that's 1961. So it is part of their 25 a feeder organisation; is that right? That's what you

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1 working publicity and so on. 1 are talking about here? 2 PROF LYNCH: Absolutely. When we did the museum exhibition 2 PROF LYNCH: That's right. So I think it will probably be 3 at the V&A, the Museum of Childhood, one of the problems 3 tomorrow we will look at a diagram of the relationship 4 we actually had with that exhibition is that virtually 4 between sending and receiving organisations to 5 the whole visual record we have of child migration 5 Australia. The reality will be much more complex than 6 schemes are publicity photos. So what you see are, by 6 the diagram that we look at tomorrow. Because in 7 and large, in fairly predictable ways of staging the 7 practice, I think we still don't even entirely know -- 8 children, children waving and smiling, walking 8 understand those relationships because a lot of that 9 purposefully towards the camera, which obviously doesn't 9 will be in individual case records. So we have learnt 10 accord with the testimonies many child migrants have 10 new relationships today, so children's -- sorry, over 11 given of their actual experiences. But there was 11 the past few days. Someone sent from the care of 12 obviously -- it did form very much part of those 12 the Children's Society to Fairbridge, for example, Royal 13 organisations' publicity. 13 Overseas League to Dhurringile. So we are still 14 MS HILL: Then I think, secondly, you were going to talk 14 discovering individual patterns. 15 about those organisations that operated solely as child 15 There was a pattern, certainly, for a lot of 16 migration organisations. 16 organisations sending children to Fairbridge as 17 PROF LYNCH: Yes. Into that, it might be useful just to 17 a receiving organisation before Dr Barnardo's Homes had 18 insert a third kind of organisation before the 18 built their first residential institution at Picton in 19 specialist child migration organisations, which were 19 New South Wales, Barnardo's children were sent primarily 20 organisations which had a wider remit for migration 20 to Fairbridge institutions. 21 issues but where child migration formed part of their 21 MS HILL: Although the relationships are complicated and not 22 work. So two examples of that would be the Church of 22 universally consistent, perhaps, there are some 23 England Council for Empire Settlement and also the 23 patterns. So, for example, the Fairbridge Society in 24 Federal Catholic Immigration Committee as well, who -- 24 the UK would generally send its child migrants to the 25 the Church of England body was based in this country, 25 Fairbridge schools at Pinjarra or Molong, or the other

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1 schools. You have said in your report, I think, that 1 supervision and responsibility and oversight. 2 the Church of Scotland Committee had a close 2 PROF LYNCH: Possibly a little more tomorrow as well. 3 relationship with the Dhurringile Farm, although that 3 MS HILL: Is this right, that an additional complicating 4 wasn't exclusively its source of children. 4 factor is there were some agencies that acted as what 5 Dr Barnardo's then came to build its own homes in 5 you have described as hubs or convenors for wider 6 Picton, about which we will hear, and Normanhurst. So 6 organisations or networks. You include within that the 7 there was some similarity between the sending and 7 Catholic Child Welfare Council, the Church of England 8 receiving organisations and in those cases you say, 8 Council for Empire Settlement, the Australian Catholic 9 I think, that it would be reasonable to imagine a common 9 Immigration Committee and the Church of Scotland 10 purpose and a shared aspiration, perhaps, but that 10 Committee on Social Services. So you include that group 11 wasn't consistently the case; is that right? 11 in a slightly different category; is that right? 12 PROF LYNCH: No, that's right. We, again, may look at this 12 PROF LYNCH: Yes. Part of our difficulty there is that 13 a little bit more when we look at that diagram for 13 virtually -- well, pretty much all of the organisations 14 Australia. But there would be organisations where the 14 you have named there are organisations of which we have 15 relationship between the sending and receiving 15 the least archival knowledge at this stage. So if we 16 organisation was essentially broadly within the same 16 can -- if it is possible to have fuller disclosure of 17 administrative organisational structure, so -- perhaps 17 archival documents relating to their works -- so it 18 with the receiving organisations having various degrees 18 becomes a little difficult to know how they operated in 19 of autonomy with that. We see this with Fairbridge, 19 practice. We have some sense of that, and I think that 20 I think, where the local committees, both in Australia, 20 may come up in specific references again to some issues 21 as I understand it, and also in Canada, actually had 21 tomorrow. But, again, that's quite a big gap in terms 22 different kinds of organisational relationship with the 22 of how they administered the Empire Settlement Act 23 Fairbridge Society in London and, similarly, the 23 funding that they received, how they selected children, 24 Dr Barnardo's Homes in New South Wales -- Dr Barnardo's, 24 how they chose which institutions children would be sent 25 New South Wales being a kind of part of the larger 25 to overseas, what, effectively, their recruitment

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1 parent body of Dr Barnardo's Homes. But then other 1 mechanisms were. There are considerable gaps in our 2 kinds of relationships between sending and receiving 2 knowledge at the moment. 3 organisations are more around a shared denominational 3 MS HILL: My final topic, please, Professor, for you is the 4 ethos. So National Children's Homes tend to send their 4 issue of the transfer of legal responsibility, I think 5 children to Methodist homes in Australia. We think 5 on which you have touched already. Is this right, that 6 Church of England -- the Children's Society and Church 6 legal guardianship was transferred in the first instance 7 of England Council for Empire Settlement would probably 7 from parents or public authorities or voluntary 8 tend to send their children to Church of England 8 societies to the National Governments of Canada, 9 residential institutions, and the range of Catholic 9 Australia, New Zealand and Southern Rhodesia. In 10 sending organisations would tend to send them to various 10 Australia and Canada, that legal responsibility would 11 religious orders in Australia. 11 then be devolved to the Provincial or State Government 12 MS HILL: I think what you are also saying is there is an 12 and more particularly to their Child Welfare 13 additional complexity in that some of the institutions 13 Departments, and then there's an additional complication 14 were independently managed from another organisation in 14 because of the Federal and State Government in 15 the UK. Is that right? There isn't necessarily a clear 15 Australia. But that, ultimately, your understanding is 16 line between, say, a Fairbridge institution in the UK 16 that responsibility would devolve to the local Child 17 and a Fairbridge institution in Australia? 17 Welfare Departments in those countries? 18 PROF LYNCH: That's right. It may come up again in, 18 PROF LYNCH: That's right. I think the qualification that 19 perhaps, more evidence from Mr Hill. There were 19 I would make at this stage is that I think it's fair to 20 certainly tensions, for example, between the 20 say there are -- well, what we are clear about is how, 21 Fairbridge Society in London at times and the local 21 in many of those countries, guardianship legally 22 committee in NSW and Western Australia. 22 operated and what the legal framework for guardianship 23 I think those complexities, perhaps we might look at 23 was. We know this, I think, in relation to Australia 24 little bit more in relation to Australia again. 24 and New Zealand. 25 MS HILL: I think we will a bit later on in terms of 25 MS HILL: So that the legal guardianship was transferred to

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1 the National Government and then devolved down to 1 Immigration's powers of guardianship to the State Child 2 a local Child Welfare Department; is that right? 2 Welfare Department. Also, I think it appears in some 3 PROF LYNCH: That's right. The part we are often not clear 3 states to actually be shared with the State Immigration 4 about is about issues of guardianship in this country. 4 Department as well -- I know it seems quite complex -- 5 I think obviously we can't go into too much detail about 5 but certainly held at the level of the State Government 6 this because I think we will go into this in more detail 6 in terms of the drawing up of written agreements with 7 in the summer, but I think, essentially, whether sending 7 residential institutions and then the monitoring of 8 organisations actually had the guardianship authority to 8 children within those residential institutions. 9 send children in their care overseas; whether proper 9 MS HILL: I think you did want to draw to the panel's 10 checks were made on that guardianship; whether 10 attention, briefly, your table of the proportion of 11 a framework existed for those kinds of checks. Again, 11 children to staff, EWM000005_181 which is an appendix to 12 I think, going back to the LEM 3 forms, we had a number 12 your first report which sets out the ratio of children 13 of questions about that. 13 to staff at a range of institutions; is that right? 14 MS HILL: I see. So your understanding is fairly clear 14 PROF LYNCH: That's right. This actually specifically 15 about the transfer of guardianship once the child is out 15 refers to Australia. So it might be worth talking about 16 of the country, but your lack of clarity is about the 16 this a bit more tomorrow when we talk about Australia. 17 transfer of guardianship from the parent originally to, 17 In fact, would it be helpful -- it would be better to do 18 then, a sending organisation before the child is 18 it tomorrow, I think, because it points to the diversity 19 migrated; is that right? 19 of provision in Australia. 20 PROF LYNCH: I think if a child was sent from the care of 20 PROF CONSTANTINE: Can I add to that, 3.2.10 was also 21 a parent and the parent clearly gave their informed 21 intended to refer to responsibility actually to the 22 consent on the migration forms to migration of 22 literal members of staff in a particular home. It is 23 the child, that position is somewhat clearer. If 23 a very personalised relationship, as we are constantly 24 a child has been sent from residential care, then 24 being informed about. No-one is talking about the legal 25 I think there may be more complex questions, 25 structure of these things. Some of this also has to be

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1 particularly when we hear accounts of parents having 1 regarded in terms of the individual member of staff and 2 ongoing contact with children, about whether the 2 the face-to-face contact with the individual child. 3 residential institution, if they had been the person who 3 PROF LYNCH: That's not simply a moral responsibility -- 4 signed that guardianship form, actually had the 4 obviously it is a moral responsibility -- there is 5 authority to do it or whether we may even see migration 5 actually a formal custodianship agreement made in 6 forms where the person signing the form doesn't even 6 Australia with -- again, we will talk a little bit more 7 appear to be from the organisation who was providing the 7 about this in detail tomorrow, but with the organisation 8 residential care to that child. 8 that made the nomination for the children to be migrated 9 MS HILL: Is this also right, that the responsibility 9 to Australia in the first place. It may not actually be 10 devolving then to a local Child Welfare Department 10 the organisation that is providing the direct 11 obviously then in practice devolves to individual 11 residential care to the child. But there are actually 12 members of staff in these institutions who had a duty of 12 named custodians for the children who have 13 care, you say, to those children, either in the UK, in 13 responsibility. For example, I think that came up in 14 transit or overseas, those individual members of staff 14 Marcelle O'Brien's evidence, where there were issues 15 obviously had a responsibility to care for those 15 about her being brought back by Fairbridge as an older 16 children? 16 teenager where she was still actually technically a ward 17 PROF LYNCH: It would be more than just individual members 17 of the Commonwealth Government but also under the 18 of staff. It would be the state bodies, the state 18 custodianship of Fairbridge, even though she'd left the 19 regional bodies, who would have that. Again, there's 19 institution. 20 a slight difference within New Zealand where I think 20 MS HILL: To conclude your evidence on these topics for 21 there is more of a transfer to a more local -- welfare 21 today, I think you make the point in your report that 22 inspectors within a national Child Welfare Department. 22 this tells us a lot about the legal transfer of 23 But within the Australian system, it is devolving 23 responsibility. But what that meant in reality may well 24 through the Immigration Guardianship of Children 1946 24 have been something quite different? 25 Act, the devolving of the Commonwealth Minister of 25 PROF LYNCH: That's right. What we have implied is a system

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1 of monitoring and oversight overseas. I think as we 1 please, Patricia Skidmore. 2 look in more detail, we will see that there were 2 MS PATRICIA SKIDMORE (affirmed) 3 considerable problems often with how that operated in 3 Questions by MS HILL 4 practice. 4 MS HILL: Thank you very much, Ms Skidmore. Can you see me 5 MS HILL: You have also alluded to issues around the 5 all right on the screen and hear me all right? 6 recruitment and training and skills of staff, and on the 6 A. Yes. 7 managerial supervision, so not just the state 7 Q. It is good morning, I think, for you. Good morning. 8 supervision. Is that right? 8 A. Yes. Very, very early morning. 9 PROF LYNCH: That's right. We have already heard some 9 Q. Very early. Thank you for joining us so early. 10 evidence about the recruitment of staff, the cottage 10 Ms Skidmore, I am going to be asking you questions on 11 mothers, at Fairbridge institutions. You have also 11 behalf of the inquiry. 12 seen -- it actually refers to Christian Brothers 12 A. Okay. 13 institutions in Britain, but you will also have seen 13 Q. If, at the end of my questioning, the Chair and panel 14 another document we have submitted as evidence for 14 have any questions, then they may ask you some questions 15 discussion at another point, but it refers to a sense of 15 as well. If you can't follow any of the questions or 16 there being different kinds of almost grades of 16 you find any of them distressing or difficult and you 17 Christian Brother, that actually, it tends to be the 17 would like a break, then please let us know. 18 better-trained, more able Christian Brothers who get to 18 A. Okay. 19 teach in their elite schools, and it is perhaps brothers 19 Q. Ms Skidmore, if it helps, the Chair and panel and other 20 who are more troubled or less able who end up in these 20 people in the hearing room have a copy of your statement 21 kind of residential schools of vulnerable children. It 21 in front of them, but is this right, that you are giving 22 is worth perhaps reminding ourselves that the 22 evidence because you are the daughter of a British child 23 Christian Brothers, in addition to the institutions we 23 migrant to Fairbridge in Canada? 24 have been hearing about at Castledare and Clontarf and 24 A. True, yes. Yes. 25 Tardun and Bindoon, also ran a very prestigious, 25 Q. Your mother, Marjorie Skidmore, born Arnison, was

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1 private, fee-paying secondary school in the Perth area 1 a child migrant, as was her sister? 2 and the organisation relations -- it is a little 2 A. Yes, she was. 3 complex, but that -- 3 Q. As was her sister? 4 MS HILL: I think we heard about someone visiting from that. 4 A. Yes. 5 PROF LYNCH: And also food scraps from Aquinas College being 5 Q. In particular, you are able to assist the inquiry, is 6 provided -- 6 this right, because you have written one book already 7 MS HILL: Yes, Aquinas College. 7 about your mother's experience -- I think that's called 8 PROF LYNCH: Yes. 8 "Marjorie Too Afraid to Cry: A Home Child Experience". 9 MS HILL: Professor Constantine, has that covered the 9 And you are working on another book about your mother's 10 issues? You have interjected as and when, but is there 10 experience called "Marjorie: Her War Years"; is that 11 anything else you'd like to add? 11 right? 12 PROF CONSTANTINE: Indeed, yes, I think you've covered 12 A. That's correct, yes. 13 chapter 3. 13 Q. You have also had a role within the Fairbridge Canada 14 MS HILL: Chair, those are all the questions I had on 14 Association that has meant you have had contact with 15 chapter 3. There is no application from anybody else. 15 many former Fairbridge children in Canada? 16 THE CHAIR: Thank you very much, Ms Hill. And thanks to 16 A. Yes. 17 both of you today. You have raised very many issues 17 Q. Just help the panel, please, understand a little bit 18 that we will be interested to hear more about tomorrow, 18 about the role you have taken in the Fairbridge Canada 19 thank you. 19 Association? 20 MS HILL: Thank you, Chair. I think we would ask you to 20 A. I have been a corresponding secretary plus the editor of 21 rise until 3.00 pm for the videolink to be arranged. 21 the Fairbridge Gazette, which is a newsletter that goes 22 (2.50 pm) 22 out three times a year, and a director of 23 (A short break) 23 the association. 24 (3.05 pm) 24 Q. I think for completeness, you have had a role in the 25 MS HILL: Good afternoon again, Chair. Could I call, 25 association since about 2005; is that right?

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1 A. That's correct. 1 Prince of Wales School at a different time, a year later 2 Q. Can I turn now, please, to ask you some questions about 2 than your mother and her brother; is that right? 3 your mother's own experience and then I will ask you 3 A. That's right, yes. 4 some more general questions. But is this right, that 4 Q. But the older sister that you have talked about, Joyce, 5 you understand that your mother was one of four 5 remained at the Middlemore Emigration Home and at 16 was 6 children; is that right? 6 sent back to her family; is that right? 7 A. In whose family -- no, she was one of 11 children. 7 A. Correct. Yes. 8 Q. Forgive me. She was one of four children who were 8 Q. Your understanding is that she was not allowed to say 9 migrated, I'm sorry; is that right? 9 goodbye to her siblings when they left the emigration 10 A. No. Only three were migrated. The fourth one was left 10 home to be migrated to Canada, and she described seeing 11 at the immigration home. 11 your mother and her brother walking down the pathway as 12 Q. Yes, forgive me. I should just read out your statement. 12 the worst day of her life; is that right? 13 Perhaps that would be easier. Is this right, that the 13 A. That's right, yes. 14 Middlemore Emigration Home originally had four of your 14 Q. You have said that your understanding is that she was 15 mother's family placed in it, but your mother and two of 15 placed in the sick bay for a long time as a result, or 16 her siblings were migrated? 16 after that experience, and that it was said that she 17 A. Correct. Yes. 17 had, by the doctor, been suffering from a broken heart. 18 Q. The reason you understood your mother and her 18 Is that right? 19 siblings -- I think that was -- to complete it, the four 19 A. That's right, yes. 20 children were Joyce, Kenneth, Audrey and Marjorie, your 20 Q. You have, I think, quoted a letter to that effect in 21 mother; is that right? 21 your book about your mother; is that right? 22 A. That's right. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. The children were understood to be preparing for the 23 Q. So your mother was 10 when she left Liverpool and was 24 examinations that the Canadian officials required -- is 24 migrated in 1937. She had turned 11, I think, by the 25 that right? -- 25 time she arrived; is that right?

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1 A. Correct, yes. 1 A. That's right, yes. 2 Q. -- which were understood to be quite stringent or 2 Q. Her younger brother, Kenny, was 9 at that time. Is that 3 difficult examinations? 3 right? 4 A. They were, yes. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. To help the Chair and panel, you have said that your 5 Q. In terms of how it was your mother and her brother came 6 understanding is, of the 170 children who were put forth 6 to be migrated, is this right, Ms Skidmore, that you 7 for the Fairbridge School Society in 1935, the Canadian 7 have obtained some paperwork from the Fairbridge Society 8 emigration officials rejected three-quarters of those 8 about how it was that consent was obtained for your 9 children and only 41 were passed; is that right? 9 mother's migration? 10 A. That's correct. 10 A. Yes. It was a letter from my grandfather to the 11 Q. Is this right, that it was in September 1937 that your 11 Fairbridge Society. 12 mother and her brother, Kenneth, were accepted for the 12 Q. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Perhaps we can 13 scheme? 13 bring the letter up to assist you. I think you should 14 A. True, yes. 14 have a copy of it in front of you. If we bring up the 15 Q. But her older sister, Joyce, was said to be too old? 15 letter on the screen here, it's -- forgive me, I don't 16 A. Correct. 16 have the INQ reference for it. But it is PS1. It is 17 Q. In fact, you have now questioned whether her date of 17 attached to the witness statement. INQ000167_001. 18 birth was recorded correctly. It looked like it hadn't 18 A. I have the quote from the letter in front of me but 19 been recorded correctly, and she was recorded as being 19 I don't have the actual letter. 20 13 but in fact she was 12. Is that right? 20 Q. It is coming up on the screen in front of us, 21 A. Correct, yes. 21 Ms Skidmore. Obviously addresses and so on are redacted 22 Q. Your mother's other sister, Audrey, was not well at that 22 out of the letter. But is this right, that the person 23 time. She was in the sick bay; is that right? 23 who has signed this letter is Mr Arnison. He is your 24 A. True, yes. 24 grandfather; is that right? 25 Q. You have described that she, I think, was sent to the 25 A. That's right, yes.

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1 Q. He has written this letter to somebody in the 1 interpretation of the letter because the letter made it 2 Whitley Bay area, and across the top of the letter 2 clear that your grandmother's consent was necessary; is 3 diagonally in the left it appears to say, "This is 3 that right? 4 a consent". Is that right? 4 A. Yes. 5 A. Correct. 5 Q. Moving on to the process you have undertaken to research 6 Q. It is not perhaps clear who has written that. It says 6 your books, Ms Skidmore, is this right, that in order to 7 this: 7 research the first book you have written about your 8 "Dear Sir, I am in receipt of your letter of 8 mother, which I think was published in January 2013, you 9 the 12th providing my wife and children are willing" -- 9 have talked to as many of the former Fairbridgeans as 10 does it say "provided my wife and all the children [I'm 10 possible and, in that capacity, many Fairbridgeans have 11 not sure if that's what it says] are willing, I am quite 11 opened up to you, some you say with the hope that their 12 agreeable to what you propose, if my wife thinks that 12 stories would finally be told, either in your books or 13 they will be better off away", I think, "and you have my 13 in the Fairbridge Gazette; is that right? 14 full permission"; is that right? 14 A. That's right, yes. 15 A. That's correct, yes. 15 Q. Although, as you know, this inquiry is focused on child 16 Q. I think it goes on to say this: 16 sexual abuse, and that's what you were asked to cover in 17 "But I think a little explanation from me is needed. 17 particular in your statement, is this right, that you 18 My job here is worth GBP3-12-4 a week". He goes on to 18 believe that there is a range of forms of abuse that the 19 talk about how much money he sends: 19 Fairbridgean children in Canada suffered that you would 20 "I pay [a certain amount], 25" -- pence or 20 like to talk about? 21 shillings, I'm sorry I don't know what that means, 21 A. Yes. Yes. 22 forgive me, "and I send the wife GBP2 a week". Is that 22 Q. Please, then, help us understand a little bit about what 23 right? 23 you have understood from your conversations with former 24 A. That's right, yes. 24 Fairbridgeans that you describe as inmates of the Prince 25 Q. "I have only missed two weeks sending the full amount 25 of Wales Fairbridge Farm School in Vancouver Island,

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1 when I was down with the flu. I think myself I am 1 Canada. Can you tell us a little bit about what you 2 better working down here", I can't read the next bit. 2 have understood in particular in terms of abuse other 3 Then something "in Whitley in three months' time I hope 3 than sexual abuse? 4 to have them down here. Believe me, yours truly, 4 A. I have been told over and over, and especially from my 5 Mr Arnison". Is that right? 5 mother, that verbal abuse was a constant: it was a daily 6 A. That's correct, yes. 6 process that the kids were told that they were 7 Q. Is it your understanding that that represented what your 7 worthless, that they were trash, that they were British 8 grandfather's situation was, that he was working away 8 guttersnipes, that they were orphans, when they weren't, 9 from his family but sending home to your grandmother, 9 and that was a very derogatory term. It was just, 10 but that's the letter that you have found on the files 10 apparently, a constant battle with being told -- with 11 that gives -- purports to give consent for your mother 11 being put down, with just being told that they were not 12 and her siblings to be migrated? 12 good, that -- sometimes they were told they weren't 13 A. That's right, yes, yes. 13 wanted in Canada, and they didn't want to be there 14 Q. Is this right, Ms Skidmore, that in your witness 14 anyway, and just a constant putdown and nobody to turn 15 statement you have suggested that this letter has been 15 to, nobody to love them, nobody to build them up, and 16 misinterpreted and that in fact your grandmother didn't 16 just -- in my opinion, my mother came out of that 17 consent to her children being migrated? 17 experience ashamed and afraid and she carried that 18 A. That is correct. We found a letter -- we found a letter 18 throughout her entire life. 19 stating that it was to my grandmother's eternal distress 19 Q. Is this right, that your mother and others have also 20 that she lost her children to Canada, and talking to my 20 described incidents of physical abuse at the school? 21 mother's siblings in England, that is correct, she did 21 A. Yes. Apparently the -- yes. 22 not want them to go. Neither did the children. It was 22 Q. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? 23 simply his permission that allowed them to take the 23 A. Things like pieces of firewood were tossed at kids, the 24 children. 24 strap was used whenever it was necessary, or whenever it 25 Q. You have said that amounted to an overzealous 25 was thought necessary. It was just -- to me, it seemed

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1 like it was an unsafe place for children, for many, many 1 a heading or a paragraph that begins, "Relatively few 2 children, and a lot of them described their lives as -- 2 orphans were sent to Canada". Do you see that? You 3 there were several cottages and 12 or 14 children in 3 have put a star by this, Ms Skidmore: 4 each cottage and it depended on who your cottage mother 4 "... because Fairbridge officials and the 5 was. Unfortunately, my mother -- she did have a couple 5 immigration authorities were reluctant to accept 6 of really nice women that did affect her, but for the 6 children who had been institutionalised for most of 7 most part, she was housed with women, as she would call 7 their lives." 8 them, if I can say this, bitches from hell. They were 8 Because their focus was to be on a cottage system. 9 cruel, they were mean, they were angry. You were just 9 If we scroll to the next page, there is a table set out 10 constantly -- it sounded to me like they were constantly 10 at the top of page INQ000168_012 that has been derived 11 on eggshells, never quite sure -- they could do nothing 11 from this academic article which quotes the origins of 12 right was the feeling, I think. 12 the children and then goes on to say the number of 13 Q. You understood that your mum was in a cottage with about 13 parents that were living. So if one looks, you can see 14 12 to 14 girls; is that right? 14 on the left-hand side -- the panel can see where in the 15 A. That's correct, yes. 15 country the children come from. Quite a lot from the 16 Q. You have described how there was very little real 16 north of England of the boys, boys and girls from the 17 communication to the outside world that was allowed, so 17 Midlands, the south of England, Scotland and Ireland, 18 if they were allowed to write home, their letters were 18 and then the numbers of parents living for each of these 19 vetted; is that right? 19 children, if you look at the figures at the bottom, is 20 A. That's correct, yes. 20 this right, that the foot of the column for zero parents 21 Q. So your mother learned very quickly not to write about 21 alive is 5.6 per cent. Can you see that? 22 feelings or anything negative about the school because 22 A. I don't have that report in front of me. I just printed 23 they feared that if those letters were read, your mother 23 out the witness statement. But I do recall that -- I do 24 had recalled parts of the letters being cut out or 24 have that report here. I know I sent it. But I don't 25 blacked out of the letter; is that right? 25 have it right in front of me now. Is that a problem?

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1 A. Part of the -- her mother's letters that came to her, 1 Q. No. You have appended it to your statement, 2 they were blacked out or cut right out, yes, so she had 2 Ms Skidmore, and we are looking at it here on the 3 to be very careful what she wrote to her mother. It was 3 screen. I think what it does is make good the figure 4 mandatory that they write home, but it had to be glowing 4 you gave that 95 per cent of the children were not in 5 reports, otherwise they would be punished. 5 fact orphans. This shows that 5.6 per cent were 6 Q. So they would be punished if they were critical in their 6 orphans. I think that's how we get the 95 per cent 7 letters and what you are saying, I think, is letters 7 figure, I think, give or take? 8 that your mother's mother had written to her were 8 A. Yes. 9 blacked out or cut out in parts; is that right? 9 Q. Your mother, or perhaps others, have told you about how 10 A. That's right, yes. 10 bed wetting at the school was frowned upon; is that 11 Q. You have referred to the use of language to the children 11 right? 12 and suggested, I think, that the children were described 12 A. That's correct, yes. 13 as "nasty orphans", but is this right, that you have 13 Q. Tell us, please, about the punishments that you 14 pointed out from your own research that very, very few 14 understood were in place for those who did wet the bed? 15 of the children at the Fairbridge school in Canada were 15 A. It started out with the child having to wear her 16 in fact orphans in the sense of having neither parent 16 knickers on her head and be taunted by the rest of 17 alive; is that right? 17 the group in the cottage, and it escalated to having to 18 A. That's correct. 95 per cent, apparently, were not 18 wear her mattress strapped to her back. The child also 19 orphans. 19 had to wash her own sheets and hang them out, which was 20 Q. I think we can just bring up very briefly part of an 20 a shame, because most laundry would be done in the main 21 academic article to which you and indeed the experts 21 laundry. I didn't put this down but I just thought of 22 have referred that begins at INQ000168_001. The page in 22 it. So that child would also have to wash her own 23 question is internal page 235, INQ000168_011. 23 sheets, hang them out on the line, and that would let 24 Do we see a heading -- it is quite hard to read, 24 the whole school know that she was a bed wetter as well. 25 actually, but at the foot of that page, do we see 25 So it was really frowned upon. Oh, I can only

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1 imagine what that was like for children. Either they 1 Q. Just being careful not to use names where appropriate, 2 weren't able to -- you know, not pee the bed or they 2 is this right, that she gave you indications that she 3 were terrified, and so that terror would just be 3 understood that three men were known to have sexually 4 mounting. How can that help, you know? That's a story 4 abused girls at the school; is that right? 5 that my mother told me. You can tell it deeply affected 5 A. That's correct. I was actually talking to her two days 6 her. A lot of Fairbridge kids would tell me things and 6 ago, and she named another name, so there was yet 7 say it happened to someone else, and so it makes me 7 another name that's not in here, that I wasn't aware of. 8 wonder if that was always the case, because very few -- 8 Q. So there were four names that your aunt gave you; is 9 the shame and the fear was so deeply embedded, very few 9 that right? 10 would tell me their stories, it was often, "This 10 A. That's correct. 11 happened to my cottage mate" or "somebody I knew". So 11 Q. Is this right, that she knew that both girls and boys 12 it's -- yeah. 12 had been sexually abused? 13 Q. As far as these sort of examples of punishments for bed 13 A. Correct, yes. 14 wetting are concerned, your mother has told you that 14 Q. And that, insofar as the differences between those 15 another girl, as you have said, and perhaps others, were 15 individuals are concerned, one was a gym teacher; is 16 required to wear what were described as "pissy knickers" 16 that right? 17 on their head, cottage mates had to taunt them by saying 17 A. Yes. 18 things like, "Piss pot, piss pot, pissy bed, pissy 18 Q. And there were differences between the people that you 19 knickers on your head". So the other children were 19 have named. Some went after the girls, you have said, 20 required, is that right, to tease the child who had wet 20 and one went after the boys, in a sexual way; is that 21 the bed? 21 right? 22 A. Yes. 22 A. Yes. Yes. 23 Q. Just to summarise, if I may, please, Ms Skidmore, your 23 Q. She has suggested that there might be reports about 24 mother's experience, what you have said is this: 24 these incidents of sexual abuse in the 25 "Like others I have spoken to -- my mother was 25 Fairbridge Society files, which I think you have said

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1 afraid to speak out at first, such was the depth of 1 are housed in Victoria at the British Columbia archives. 2 the indoctrination of fear that she still carried it 2 But tell us, please, about your understanding of 3 well into her 70s. She told me she would get into 3 the ability to access those files? 4 trouble", for speaking about what happened. 4 A. The Fairbridge Society has closed those files until the 5 A. Yes. 5 year 2035. Any files associated with the Fairbridge 6 Q. Is that right? 6 Farm School in the Cowichan Valley, those files have 7 A. That's right, which I found very shocking, the fear, but 7 been closed until the year 2035. Individuals can 8 that was her initial reaction. So to get her stories 8 sometimes get their own files and look at them, and 9 out of her, it took a great many years, it took a lot of 9 there are other files that are accessible, but nothing 10 patience and time, and to get her to a position where 10 of that nature. So you may be able to find newspaper 11 she felt safe to be able to talk about it all these 11 articles or old Fairbridge Gazettes, but nothing of 12 years later. 12 a restricted nature until the year 2035. 13 Q. I think generally you have summarised your mother's 13 Q. Your understanding is that the Fairbridge archives in 14 experience at the Fairbridge Farm School as being one 14 Canada are restricted by the London Fairbridge Society 15 that left her afraid, ashamed and feeling worthless. Is 15 under the auspices now of the Prince's Trust; is that 16 that a fair summary? 16 right? 17 A. Yes. Yes. 17 A. That's my belief, yes. 18 Q. Can I ask you now, please, some questions about the 18 Q. That's what you have written in your statement. Turning 19 conversation that you have had, I think quite recently, 19 now, please, if I may, Ms Skidmore, to some other 20 with your aunt, Audrey, your mother's sister? 20 evidence about the incidence of sexual abuse at the 21 A. Yes. 21 Fairbridge school in Canada that you have sought to 22 Q. She has talked to you about her understanding of 22 assist the inquiry with, first of all, is this right, 23 the incidents of sexual abuse at the Fairbridge School 23 that you have located a book written by somebody called 24 in Canada; is that right? 24 Arthur Sager, who had spent some time as a duties master 25 A. That's right, yes. 25 at the Fairbridge School; is that right?

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1 A. That's right, yes. 1 the floor at my feet", as he read them stories, I think 2 Q. We can perhaps just pull up the front cover of that book 2 he's saying: 3 to get a sense of it, on our screen. I don't know if 3 "I read adventure stories aloud to them ..." 4 you have it in front of you, Ms Skidmore, or not, but 4 Over the page he says this: 5 I can talk you through it if you don't have it? 5 "Only once did I have to resort to physical 6 A. I do have it, yes. I'm reaching over for it. 6 punishment, in this case using a thin piece of kindling, 7 Q. It is INQ000169_001. It is called "It's in the Book. 7 but I regretted it later when all the boys including the 8 Notes of a Naive Young Man". Is that right? 8 offender came to my room to apologise for his 9 A. That's correct, yes. 9 insolence." 10 Q. If you go over the page to INQ000169_002, you can see 10 Very briefly, Chair, this might be of relevance. He 11 there are different chapters apparently about the range 11 says the boys loved to sing. They sang songs they'd 12 of jobs the young man had had: a mucker, a deckhand, 12 made up and things like "Down on misery farm where you 13 being down and out, a lift boy, a reporter, an actor, an 13 work all day and get no pay". "When I leave this 14 apple picker, a house master, and the chapter about 14 blasted Fairbridge, how happy I will be". "Gone are the 15 being at Fairbridge is the duties master chapter; is 15 days when I was young, free, now are the days when I 16 that right? 16 work in slavery." 17 A. That's correct, yes. 17 Which I think were set to other tunes. That's what 18 Q. If we go, please, to within the chapter, we can see just 18 he seems to be suggesting; is that right? 19 at the beginning of the chapter, at INQ000169_003 -- 19 A. That's right, yes, yes. I have heard many talk about 20 again, it is a little bit hard to read on the screen -- 20 how they felt they were slaves. 21 he had gone to the Fairbridge Farm School on Vancouver 21 Q. He's talked here about the issue of discipline or 22 Island for eight weeks. He says at the beginning of 22 corporal punishment, which you have alluded to when 23 the chapter: 23 talking about the children being hit at the school. He 24 "Had I known what I was letting myself in for, 24 says this in the book: 25 I probably wouldn't have taken the job as duties master 25 "Every morning at 8 o'clock after the trainees had

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1 as those eight weeks at Fairbridge left me emotionally 1 gone to work I donned the mantle of disciplinarian. 2 drained." 2 Cottage mothers were not [meant] to use corporal 3 Is that how he begins the chapter? 3 punishment and in cases of serious misconduct they sent 4 A. Yes. 4 their erring boys to my cottage with a note reporting on 5 Q. At the foot of INQ000169_003 he notes: 5 the misdemeanour and a letter of apology from the young 6 "Here 150 children from 7 to 17 years of age 6 offender. My task was to make the punishment fit the 7 received elementary and some secondary education from 7 crime by a heart-to-heart talk, assignment of extra 8 teachers provided by the government and vocational 8 duties or, if neither seemed sufficiently severe, by the 9 training from teachers employed in the school in farming 9 application of a running shoe to the bottom." 10 for the boys and domestic science for the girls." 10 He said he "was confronted by every conceivable sin 11 We don't need to go through all of this part, but he 11 known to childhood from stealing, fighting, lying, 12 talks about, just to give a sense, later on, for some of 12 throwing stones, breaking windows, being insolent to 13 the account that's given, at the foot of internal 13 wetting the bed. I rarely used the shoe but eventually 14 numbering 169, which is INQ000169_004, he says he was in 14 had to accept that some boys responded only to bodily 15 a cottage set apart, he says: 15 chastisement, having become used to it in England." 16 "I fathered and mothered the oldest boys called 16 Is that right? 17 'trainees', 15 striplings in their final two years of 17 A. That's what he says, yes. 18 vocational training." 18 Q. At the top of the following page, he refers to the 19 It follows the boys who were trainees would be 19 cottage mothers and says that he suspected that the 20 between 15 and 17? 20 cottage mothers were more at fault than the boys, that 21 A. They should be 15, 15-year-olds, yeah, and then at 16 21 sympathetic understanding was lacking. Moving the 22 they were sent out to work. 22 children from one cottage to another was contrary to 23 Q. He describes just very briefly at the foot of that page 23 Fairbridge practice as it would cause friction between 24 how the children were starved for affection: 24 the mothers. He didn't seem to have a good opinion of 25 "... they crowded beside me on the sofa or sat on 25 the cottage mothers; is that right?

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1 A. That's right, yes, yes. 1 "... the conviction that the school didn't give the 2 Q. Just briefly at the foot of that page, he explains what 2 children sufficient opportunities to get to know the 3 a duties master was, which was supervising the children 3 world beyond the gates." 4 during their work periods. At the foot of that page, he 4 Is that right? 5 says: 5 A. Correct. That's right. Yes. 6 "For three hours every weekday morning and two hours 6 Q. "They were far too insulated within the cocoon of 7 every afternoon, in the sweltering fields of the farm, 7 Fairbridge ... lacked experience in social settings ..." 8 I acted as the slave driver of protesting bands of 9- to 8 They were socially awkward when required, or able, 9 14-year-olds, cajoling and browbeating them in their 9 to go out of the institution. 10 tasks of hoeing, raking, weeding, picking peas and 10 Does that reflect what you have understood from 11 digging potatoes." 11 other children at the school? 12 He says sometimes fights broke out among the 12 A. Absolutely, yes. Yes. 13 children: 13 Q. Then finally, is the account he gives at the top of 14 "It was only when I shamed them by getting down on 14 the next page, please. He says: 15 my knees and started weeding myself that the 15 "But what upset me most about the communal living of 16 revolutionaries would go grumbling back to work. By 16 the school were two cases involving abnormal sex between 17 mid afternoon I was wilted", he says. 17 boys. The first was a racket", he says, "in which an 18 A. Yes. 18 8-year-old boy was inviting older boys to his bed for 19 Q. Then he describes a little bit further down that later 19 money or marbles and inciting his pals to engage in the 20 in the day he would doff the role of slave driver to 20 lucrative practice." 21 become the sports master. He talks about the children 21 Is that right? 22 swimming and so on. But then over the page, about 22 A. Yes. 23 two-thirds of the way down, he says, in terms of 23 Q. The boys were walloped, he says, I think, for that. But 24 the structure of the day: 24 he accepted at the time that it was an isolated case and 25 "The work at Fairbridge absorbed every minute of 25 not typical. He goes on to say:

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1 the wakeful hours, seven days a week, to the exclusion 1 "I discovered later he was wrong. One evening 2 of everything else except, late at night, thoughts about 2 outside my cottage two trainees, A a senior and B 3 the war", as it was at that time. 3 a newcomer, started fighting. When I arrived [the 4 But does that sort of reflect the memories that you 4 newcomer] was on the ground, blood on his face, being 5 have picked up from other people who were at the 5 pummelled by A. 'I'll squeal on you, I'll squeal on 6 Fairbridge School, that structure to the day and that 6 you!', he was shouting. I took them indoors and it all 7 lack of -- apparent lack of free time; is that right? 7 came out. The two of them had been having sex together 8 A. Yes. Very structured from the moment they got up to the 8 for some time before B became a trainee. 'Now that I'm 9 moment they went to bed. 9 in your cottage, he thinks he can do it more often', B 10 Q. This writer has said, just a bit further down that page: 10 said, blubbering. A confessed, saying he was afraid B 11 "Other thoughts, ever more disquieting, retarded 11 would tell me about it and he wanted to scare him out of 12 sleep." 12 doing so." 13 I think he's saying: 13 Mr Sager says: 14 "I was beginning to have doubts about my fitness for 14 "Shocked to the core, I sat them down and, though 15 the job ... 15 ignorant on the subject, gave them a talk of 16 "Doubts about the school crept in more slowly. 16 the harmfulness of sexual perversion. I decided not to 17 I admired the skill and devotion of most cottage mothers 17 whip them as their wrongdoing was beyond correction by 18 but began to have reservations about others. I became 18 corporal punishment and I promised not to report on them 19 increasingly concerned about boy-girl relationships, 19 providing they promised to cease the practice forthwith. 20 believing the separation of the sexes was much too 20 They did so solemnly, we shook hands, and they parted 21 rigid." 21 much relieved. But I was left with my faith in 22 I think the panel can read this, but I think what 22 Fairbridge shattered to the point of wondering if 23 he's saying is there were boys loitering outside girls' 23 homeless children from England would not have a better 24 cottages in the evening and so on, and he had doubts, he 24 start were they living in foster homes." 25 says in the next paragraph: 25 Is that what you have discovered from researching

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1 this book? 1 inside, she says. She goes on to say: 2 A. Yes. 2 "We realise that the majority of these children come 3 Q. He concludes by saying: 3 from overcrowded city homes, where the amenities of 4 "I left Fairbridge disheartened, feeling that its 4 living, according to the Canadian way of life, are 5 worthy objectives were not being achieved, though 5 absent. In fact, in Canada, very few of us have any 6 I recognised that the sense of personal failure may have 6 idea of the conditions under which these children lived 7 affected my judgment." 7 [in England and Wales] ... But, in recognising this, we 8 Is that right? 8 must keep firm hold on the basic concept set out by 9 A. Yes. 9 Kingsley Fairbridge, that these children were sent out 10 Q. You have explained, I think, your view, Ms Skidmore, in 10 from England to have opportunities which they could not 11 your witness statement that your understanding of what 11 have at home, to live the good life possible to children 12 that account relates to is an older boy raping or having 12 in the dominions, and to become good citizens of 13 sexual relations with the younger one? 13 the country to which they were sent." 14 A. Yes. 14 In the final part of the introductory paragraph she 15 Q. You have doubted whether the telling off, if you like, 15 says: 16 the stern talking to by the duties master, would have 16 "There is one other point too, upon which the whole 17 stopped that sort of activity? 17 scheme must be judged, and that is whether the children 18 A. It's been in discussing things like this with other 18 sent to Fairbridge are mentally and physically capable 19 Fairbridgeans, it is my belief that bullying was quite 19 of profiting by their inclusion in the scheme." 20 intense and I believe it wouldn't have stopped. It 20 I'm sure the panel can look at this, but she just 21 wouldn't have stopped. I have heard of other -- other 21 picks out, just very briefly, some points about the 22 instances where somebody tries to report an incident or 22 institution. First of all, she looks at the nature of 23 get help with something, and they're generally sent away 23 the cottages, the dishes, the food and the sanitary 24 without any redress. They have nobody to talk to, 24 facilities. In the middle of this page, she says there 25 nobody who cared what was happening to them. This 25 is an inadequately heated basement where the lavatories

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1 duties master, I believe -- he was only there for two 1 are, meaning children have to go down the stairs at 2 months, he was a very young man, I believe he was an 2 night to go to the toilet. The play room is most 3 anomaly. He genuinely seemed to care and I don't think 3 uninviting. The dormitories are bright and airy -- can 4 many of them did, from what I have found out. 4 you see in the bottom of this paragraph -- that the 5 Q. You have also heard accounts of children when they 5 windows are close enough to the ground to allow an easy 6 looked to an adult for help or complained about 6 descent or ascent should the children wish to make it. 7 something, being punished for being a tattler or a pest? 7 The cottages are in an outmoded plan which allows the 8 A. That's right. 8 cottage mother little opportunity to foster any feeling 9 Q. That's a common thread you have picked up from your 9 of home. 10 discussions with former Fairbridgeans, that children 10 Over the page, "according to many children, they and 11 seemingly learned quickly not to ask for help; is that 11 the school are not what was promised to their parents. 12 right? 12 One little girl interviewed said with tears that her 13 A. Right. That's right. And not to complain, because to 13 mother had sent her because she was assured this was 14 complain meant to bring attention to yourself and the 14 a grand place, there were horses to ride and everything, 15 knowledge that it could get a lot worse, so just accept 15 and there wasn't even one horse. Most of the children 16 what's happening. 16 seemed to feel cheated and their allegiance is still to 17 Q. You have also drawn to the panel's attention a report 17 their own families back in England, poor though they may 18 that I think in fairness our experts have also looked 18 be". Does that reflect the sort of dynamic you have 19 at, but perhaps just to bring out a detail in it. This 19 heard from others? 20 is a report by Isobel Harvey, who was a superintendent 20 A. Yes. But for the most part, I think with 329 children 21 of child welfare, who wrote a report in 1944 on the 21 at that farm school, there are 329 stories that came out 22 Fairbridge School. If one turns up that report, please, 22 of it. Some thought it was the very best thing that 23 at PS4 of your statement, so it begins at INQ000170_001. 23 ever happened to them. But many, many people said it 24 We can see, if we look at the top of the next page, that 24 was the worst. My mother was included and that's where 25 this is a short study of Fairbridge as viewed from the 25 my bent is, that it was not a good situation.

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1 Q. The panel can look down at this report, but is this 1 which I think is the bed wetting, "has been accepted in 2 right, just briefly, Ms Harvey was critical of 2 a fatalistic manner; at least, one would judge so when 3 the clothing given to the girls. She was critical that 3 a 16-year-old girl of average intelligence, who has been 4 the food was badly prepared, overcooked, unattractively 4 at Fairbridge eight years, still has a wet bed every 5 served, a dreadful sameness day after day. 5 night." 6 At the second paragraph over the page: 6 Does that reflect the sort of conditions you have 7 "One thing that strikes a Canadian is that the 7 heard about? 8 children all eat off metal dishes and drink from a metal 8 A. Yes. 9 mug, while the cottage mothers and staff members have 9 Q. There is observation in this report about discipline: 10 china. That also is reminiscent of an orphanage of the 10 "The children are harried over every mistake that 11 last century, and must make the child feel that he is 11 most mothers would wisely overlook." 12 underprivileged and different. To look at the matter 12 There is mention of the children being strapped 13 practically, it is bad training for children to go out 13 often for merely being in high spirits, and so on. It 14 from an institution at 16 without having had experience 14 goes on to deal with the role of punishment. The 15 of handling and using the breakable china which is in 15 following page talks about punishment varying from 16 common use in Canada." 16 a whipping to a strapping: 17 That gives some sense of the eating facilities. She 17 "Cottage mothers have too much power with the 18 said the children looked, and were, dirty. A little bit 18 younger children, whom they discipline as they please, 19 further down that passage: 19 and no-one is informed, as far as I could gather ..." 20 "Children were seen at the clinic who had dirt 20 There is no acceptance of the need for education for 21 encrusted under their arms and other parts of their 21 the children of which they were capable and the girls 22 bodies. Some of them had such a heavy body odour that 22 should be placed in a job -- "that he should be placed 23 the nurse was sickened. A fresh gown and sheet had to 23 in a job for which his particular training and gifts fit 24 be used for every patient examined ... 24 him. With few exceptions, the children examined show 25 "No attempt is made to teach adolescent girls how to 25 retardation and a lack of interest in school."

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1 keep themselves dainty ... The follow-up officer for the 1 And children had also talked about not fitting in at 2 girls told me that she could not get the girls in 2 school because of their clothes, and so on. Is that 3 employment to keep themselves clean ... Girls of 16 in 3 right? 4 employment should not have to start in on this. 4 A. That's right, yes. 5 "The health of the children ... reveals more than 5 Q. The report was critical of the quality of the cottage 6 the ordinary number of colds which might point both to 6 mothers and made the point over the page that they were 7 a vitamin deficiency and also to the fact that cotton is 7 the foundation stone of the cottage system because they 8 the school wear even in cold weather. It might also 8 are the children's substitutes for their own mothers, 9 show inadequate heating in the cottages ... There are 9 "yet they change so rapidly that it is impossible for 10 records where recurring tonsilitis continued over a long 10 most children to get any security from them ... no 11 period without any steps being taken to have the 11 person on the staff capable of guiding the cottage 12 offending tonsils removed." 12 mothers ... " 13 Over the page, talks about children admitted to the 13 Is that the sense of what you had? 14 school with chronic medical conditions: 14 A. That's the sense, yes. 15 "One youngster suffering from chronic otitis media", 15 Q. Then finally in relation to issues of sexual abuse or 16 swimmer's ear, a painful condition in the ear, which led 16 potential sexual abuse, there is a passage in this page 17 to her wanting to swim, not being allowed to, but then 17 that says that the duties master, F217, "has a name for 18 the general practitioner, who it is said, did not bother 18 fooling with the girls and was seen twice walking down 19 to read the record, allowed her to swim: 19 the path with a teenage girl hanging on to either arm. 20 "She was back in hospital ... this month. 20 The principal has warned him more than once about this 21 "Numerous children have been admitted with very bad 21 in the hearing of staff members. However, this and 22 eyesight ... Two boys who were examined were found to be 22 other stories of fooling might not be considered 23 wearing glasses which they had outgrown ... doctor's 23 seriously had not one 15-year-old girl stated in her 24 visits have dwindled to once in six weeks." 24 interview that she did not go to his house anymore 25 At the foot of that paragraph, it says, "Enuresis", 25 because she got scared. When pressed further, she

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1 stated he had put his arms around her and kissed her and 1 Q. In addition to that report, you have drawn attention to 2 she did not know what he wanted, so she did not go back. 2 the fact that your understanding is that there was 3 When asked if any other girls got scared, she remarked 3 a problem with staffing the school with appropriate 4 vaguely, that if he got anyone it was [and gave name]. 4 members of staff, and that staff were in short supply. 5 One other girl is also said to have suddenly ceased 5 So your understanding is that if there were issues about 6 visiting [that person]. As this seemed to be a matter 6 inappropriate behaviour, you don't understand the staff 7 for the police, these names are withheld", says the 7 would be charged. You had heard that staff were hired 8 report. 8 back even after allegations against them were made; is 9 Finally on this, over to internal page 8, please, 9 that right? 10 two or three pages on in this report from Ms Harvey, 10 A. That's right, yes. That's my understanding. 11 INQ000170_009, again, does this refer to the issue of 11 Q. You have also referred to a reference in the Dunae 12 sexual relations between the children at the school by 12 article to which we have been already, INQ000168_001. 13 saying this: 13 Just a couple of other references, please, for you, 14 "The proximity of the cottages and the lack of 14 Ms Skidmore. If we go, please, to internal numbering 15 organised group activity, except sports, seems to 15 page 244, which is INQ000168_020, it is pretty hard to 16 encourage romance, and of an evening the place was full 16 read, but if we get to that page, can we see at the top 17 of pairs of boys and girls walking off together. There 17 of that passage: 18 is no supervision of this freedom, and from various 18 "... the child welfare branch discovered that 19 remarks by both children and staff one would judge there 19 a senior member of the farm school staff had been 20 are irregularities of conduct going on constantly. The 20 charged with gross indecency and that two other staff 21 principal does not seem to worry about this 21 members had been dismissed for making sexual advances to 22 particularly. When this and the homosexual activities 22 the older Fairbridgean girls. The branch also found 23 which have so alarmed others were discussed with him, he 23 evidence of 'sexual misconduct' between students. 24 stated that the British people are oversexed. This 24 Although the students' liaisons did not have serious 25 rationalising, however, does not explain why the 25 consequences, the child welfare branch viewed them with

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1 government group of overseas children of some 200-odd 1 concern and accused the cottage staff of being 2 have produced only one sex delinquent. We all recognise 2 insufficiently 'vigilant'. No less damaging to the farm 3 that we cannot guard against all sexual relations of 3 school's reputation was the high incidence of pregnancy 4 this sort, but it is certainly necessary that the head 4 among unmarried Fairbridge girls who had been placed in 5 of administration and his staff be aware of the dangers 5 domestic service. Between 1938 and 1944, 19 out of 57 6 and also of the remedies." 6 (33 per cent) of the girls who left ... became 7 Is that right? 7 illegitimately pregnant. Their illegitimacy rate was 8 A. That's what's recorded, yes. 8 significantly higher than that among single girls of 9 Q. Just to conclude this report, the last part of this 9 a similar age in the province (12.5 per cent). Making 10 report, page 9, please, I think that's INQ000170_010. 10 matters worse, three of the girls became pregnant more 11 At the end of that report: 11 than once and four of them had abortions. The child 12 "I do feel that the school is not fulfilling 12 welfare branch regarded these statistics as evidence of 13 Kingsley Fairbridge's ideals as it should. Those in 13 Fairbridge's poor placement procedures and inadequate 14 authority have forgotten that an idea to continue must 14 aftercare programmes and as testimony to the lack of sex 15 grow. They have accepted Fairbridge's idea of farm and 15 education at the farm school." 16 domestic training, forgetting that times change, and 16 Is that what you have also tried to draw, 17 they still place a child in a job decided for him many 17 Ms Skidmore, to the panel's attention? 18 years ago by the founder of the scheme no matter what 18 A. Yes. 19 his own desires and talents may be. Both staff and 19 Q. You have also referred I think, just going back a couple 20 children remarked to me that were Kingsley Fairbridge 20 of pages in that report, to internal numbering 240, 21 alive today the whole policy of the school would have 21 which I think is INQ000168_016, to reports that some of 22 changed with the times." 22 the cottage mothers had made about their charges. At 23 Is that what this report that you have located 23 the foot of that page: 24 concludes with? 24 "The nightmare for Fairbridge began in January 1944 25 A. Yes, it does. 25 when a disgruntled ex-cottage mother wrote to the child

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1 welfare branch to complain of discipline problems at the 1 I wanted to ask you. Is there anything in particular 2 farm school. She appended a list of 28 Fairbridge 2 that you feel I have missed from your statement that you 3 children whom she said were unfit to be at the 3 would like to share with the Chair and panel? 4 facility." 4 A. I think you've really covered it and, for me, there are 5 She said these children, "had a very low IQ", were 5 so many stories that haven't come out because people are 6 "subnormal, "had problems, seemed mental". She 6 still ashamed, afraid, people will touch on it, my aunt 7 described one as "a sex pervert", one as "a sodomite." 7 and speaking with her, she said that what the girls did 8 That had triggered some of the enquiries about which 8 is, they would never go anywhere alone, they would 9 we have heard; is that right? 9 always go with one or two, just to make sure that they 10 A. That's right, yes. 10 weren't abused. They were very much aware of that 11 Q. Just turning finally, please, Ms Skidmore, to some of 11 potential and that's how they tried to prevent it. 12 the personal testimonies you have been provided with, is 12 I just heard, too, one teacher who was at the 13 this right, and again, without naming this person, there 13 school, she's still alive, I think she's 96, suggested 14 was a former Fairbridge pupil who passed away 14 that the girls' hygiene was poor because they felt that 15 in March 2015 and you agreed to be executor of her will; 15 would keep people away from them. Now, I found that 16 is that right? We don't need to name her? 16 interesting, that perhaps they felt that was a way to 17 A. That's correct. That's right, yes. 17 keep the duty masters or whomever else was after them 18 Q. As a result of that, you undertook some research to try 18 away, so that is an interesting idea as well. 19 to put together a family tree as part of your role with 19 It was not a good place. It was not a safe place 20 her estate. You obtained her file from the University 20 for kids. 21 of Liverpool and you found, on reading that file, that 21 MS HILL: Thank you very much, Ms Skidmore. 22 her mother had had her without being married, she was 22 Panel, Chair, those are the only questions I have. 23 illegitimate, that's the reason she was put in the 23 There is no Rule 10 application. Unless you have any 24 Middlemore home, but you found evidence that her mother 24 questions for this witness, that would conclude her 25 had tried to have her daughter returned to her but was 25 evidence.

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1 repeatedly refused? 1 THE CHAIR: I have one question, Ms Skidmore, from Mr Frank. 2 A. Yes. 2 MR FRANK: Can I understand your evidence in relation to the 3 Q. The woman in question would never have known of that 3 files which are held in the archives in 4 request? 4 British Columbia. Is this right, that you -- have you 5 A. That's right. She wouldn't have been told, no. 5 tried to access those files? 6 Q. Is it your understanding that the person you are talking 6 A. Many, many people -- I can access some files. Many 7 about died not knowing about the contents of that file 7 people, Fairbridgeans, have tried and they get turned 8 and, therefore, died not knowing that her mother had 8 away. The Isobel Harvey report that I have included in 9 tried to make contact with her and get her back? 9 here is one of the restricted files. If I were to go in 10 A. Yes. 10 there to look at that file, I'd be denied. I managed to 11 Q. You have talked about somebody else who arrived at the 11 get a copy of it and I use it wherever I can because 12 Fairbridge Farm School in 1948, so with the last group 12 I think it is an important report. But, yes, they're 13 of migrants. This person, when the school closed, was 13 closed until the year 2035 and it has been very, very 14 placed into foster care. Is this right, that this 14 frustrating. 15 person, another woman, disclosed to you she was raped 15 My aunt, so my mother's younger sister who was sent 16 while in foster care? 16 out, married a Fairbridge boy who passed away, 17 A. Correct, yes. 17 I believe, in the '70s or '80s. She tried to access his 18 Q. There is one former Fairbridge boy who arrived at the 18 file and was denied. I was there with her. There is 19 school in 1938 who has also talked to you about being 19 such a secrecy and you have to ask yourself, what are 20 sexually abused by the duties master, and you said this: 20 they trying to hide? 21 "As soon as he told me,he regretted it and swore me 21 MR FRANK: Can I ask you to help us with this: is it your 22 to secrecy." 22 understanding that the obstacle to revealing those files 23 Is that right? 23 is the denial of authority from the London 24 A. That's right, yes. 24 Fairbridge Society to the BC Society? Is that right? 25 Q. Ms Skidmore, I think those are all the questions that 25 A. That is my belief. And now that the London

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1 Fairbridge Society is under the umbrella of 1 MS PATRICIA SKIDMORE (affirmed) ...... 139 2 the Prince's Trust, people researching might not know 2 3 how to even get to the Fairbridge files anymore. 3 Questions by MS HILL ...... 139 4 I mean, it's becoming very, very difficult. So without 4 5 knowing where the authority lies, the chances of getting 5 6 any access to those files becomes less and less as the 6 7 years pass. 7 8 MR FRANK: Finally this: is it your understanding that the 8 9 files that you're referring to may contain relevant 9 10 evidence in relation to the abuse of -- sexual abuse of 10 11 children in the Fairbridge Society Farm School? 11 12 A. I believe they should, because there were trials and it 12 13 should be there. 13 14 MR FRANK: Thank you. 14 15 A. It is my belief they are there, yes. 15 16 MR FRANK: Thank you very much, that's all I ask. 16 17 A. With proper authority, you can get them. 17 18 THE CHAIR: Thank you very much, Ms Skidmore. The panel and 18 19 I are very grateful to you for your evidence today. 19 20 Thanks very much from all of us. 20 21 A. You're very welcome, thank you. 21 22 (The witness withdrew) 22 23 MS HILL: Thank you very much. Chair, panel, that concludes 23 24 the evidence for today. Our intention tomorrow would be 24 25 simply to deal with expert evidence tomorrow and to hear 25

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1 from Professor Lynch and Professor Constantine on the 2 contents of chapters 4, 5 and 9.1 of their report. 3 THE CHAIR: Thank you, Ms Hill. Today's hearing is now 4 concluded. 5 (4.03 pm) 6 (The hearing was adjourned until 7 Friday, 10 March 2017 at 10.30 am) 8 9 I N D E X 10 11 Welcome remarks by THE CHAIR ...... 1 12 13 Housekeeping ...... 1 14 15 DR MARGARET HUMPHREYS (sworn) ...... 2 16 17 Questions by MS HILL ...... 2 18 19 PROFESSOR GORDON LYNCH (continued) ...... 87 20 21 PROFESSOR STEPHEN CONSTANTINE ...... 87 22 (continued) 23 24 Questions by MS HILL ...... 87 25

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A 85:1 98:9 147:16 108:19 134:1 administer 127:6 72:18 74:7 83:8 A14 2:3 147:18 148:2,3,5 166:5 administered 113:7 85:15 131:4 abhorrent 51:23 148:20 154:23 accused 176:1 131:22 agency 74:21 81:5 ability 46:8 92:15 155:24 156:20 achieved 165:5 administration 81:23 156:3 172:15,16 181:10 acknowledged 34:8,23 174:5 ages 52:23 able 15:23 28:12 181:10 95:25 administrative ago 9:16,21,22 10:4 45:21 51:18 53:23 abused 45:20 48:22 acknowledgement 88:11 101:11 42:23 70:15 71:9 64:11 66:8 86:23 50:23 51:20 52:5 79:14 113:2 129:17 155:6 174:18 98:15 105:13 55:13,23 70:3,12 acquitted 20:2,3 admired 162:17 agree 105:23 122:3 137:18,20 140:5 80:18 82:16 155:4 Act 92:17,19 96:21 admitted 61:3 agreeable 145:12 153:2 154:11 155:12 178:20 99:12 104:6 170:13,21 agreed 177:15 156:10 163:8 179:10 108:24 109:22,25 adolescent 169:25 agreement 136:5 abnormal 163:16 abuses 16:14 110:18,18,19,24 adopted 18:25 agreements 135:6 abortions 176:11 abusive 49:12 110:25 111:4,6,24 98:13 103:13 ahead 118:6 abroad 106:12 academic 150:21 112:2,11 115:10 105:14 aims 33:3 absence 59:6 151:11 115:14,18,22,23 adoption 27:23 airfares 85:25 absent 167:5 academics 119:23 117:24 127:6 adult 12:8 50:15 airy 168:3 absolutely 3:8 5:10 accept 119:6 151:5 131:22 134:25 57:19 58:17 77:21 alarmed 173:23 11:20,23 12:12 160:14 166:15 acted 131:4 161:8 83:18 127:12 albeit 6:21 17:3 16:22 21:11 23:11 acceptable 27:6,7 actively 23:8 76:4 166:6 65:13 94:4 36:21 42:13,21 103:20,21 activities 79:9 adults 5:17,20 55:4 Alexis 1:6 43:10 45:20 51:18 acceptance 171:20 173:22 55:25 58:14 75:10 alive 30:13 83:23 55:8 56:1 64:5 accepted 26:4 activity 124:7 advances 175:21 150:17 151:21 69:18 71:10 83:19 65:10 142:12 165:17 173:15 advantageous 174:21 179:13 84:13,24 91:7 163:24 171:1 actor 157:13 94:21 allegations 46:14 100:2 103:12,20 174:15 actual 62:21 113:2 adventure 159:3 175:8 103:25 107:20 access 90:14,19,24 126:11 144:19 advert 63:2 alleged 70:13 126:2 163:12 98:15,17 156:3 ad 117:8 advisory 78:23 allegiance 168:16 absorbed 161:25 180:5,6,17 181:6 add 93:11 103:4 119:20 Allen 2:2 abuse 1:7 4:22 14:8 accessed 76:8 108:23 111:6 affect 38:10 149:6 allow 56:23 86:25 14:11,14 15:3 accessible 156:9 117:23 135:20 affection 158:24 87:16 168:5 26:16 34:13,17 accessing 31:11 138:11 affirmation 87:21 allowed 18:2 112:3 38:19 40:4 45:4 accord 122:9 added 75:12 92:5 affirmed 139:2 143:8 146:23 45:11,11,15,22 126:10 112:12 183:1 149:17,18 170:17 46:2,12 47:10,13 account 9:15 10:14 adding 80:21 afraid 69:20 97:22 170:19 49:11,23 50:2,14 12:17 13:20 21:4 addition 35:13 140:8 148:17 allowing 71:17 50:16,16 51:13,23 32:8 41:3 42:5,6 137:23 175:1 154:1,15 164:10 allows 168:7 52:12,16,17,21 48:3 63:10 67:21 additional 12:17 179:6 alluded 84:14 54:16 55:21 57:18 158:13 163:13 64:20,24 75:22 African 62:2 118:15 137:5 58:5 59:4 63:22 165:12 106:20 130:13 aftercare 72:21 159:22 67:1,8,12 69:24 accountability 18:2 131:3 132:13 73:3 176:14 alongside 110:17 75:5 77:7,23 accountable 18:6,8 address 3:3 afternoon 2:13 127:12 80:10,14 81:13 accounts 8:9 25:14 addresses 144:21 87:9 138:25 161:7 aloud 159:3 82:13,17,20,23 46:12,17 47:22 Adelaide 42:14 161:17 amended 110:19 83:5,10,11,11,13 49:10 55:2 57:7 adjourned 182:6 age 158:6 176:9 amendment 111:4 84:2,4,5,6,6,8 63:21 65:25 66:13 adjournment 87:7 agencies 34:18 amenities 167:3

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amount 120:17 108:6 90:22,23 98:3 54:17,21 59:2 179:6 180:15 145:20,25 appears 19:23 24:9 100:14 156:1,13 assaulted 46:18,25 auspices 156:15 amounted 146:25 24:17 59:5 111:7 180:3 47:23 Australia 6:4,17 anaesthetic 52:7 111:18 121:6 archivist 90:21 assess 70:1 98:20 9:13 10:23 11:24 56:23 135:2 145:3 area 82:5 138:1 assessing 52:21 12:21 15:12 19:4 anally 57:24 appended 152:1 145:2 assessment 98:21 26:12,21,24 27:7 and/or 89:17 177:2 areas 30:1 52:24 assessments 99:21 27:21 30:10 32:19 Anglican 127:8 appendices 73:11 64:17 99:25 35:11,24 36:12,24 Anglo-Australian appendix 135:11 argument 26:10 assignment 160:7 37:5 39:23 40:25 120:13 apple 157:14 arguments 101:22 assist 33:17 100:4 60:9,20 61:16 angry 149:9 application 86:8 arising 33:18 140:5 144:13 62:6 64:3 68:5 animals 41:24 106:1 138:15 arm 79:1 172:19 156:22 69:17,25 70:2,5,7 Annie 94:18 122:13 160:9 179:23 arms 169:21 173:1 assistance 94:10 71:4 79:22 80:3 annual 97:15 applications 97:4 Army 123:16 assisted 78:8 127:7 88:9 91:13 92:10 117:10 125:12 98:20 99:23 101:3 Arnison 139:25 127:10 93:9,13,19 97:20 anomaly 166:3 127:6 144:23 146:5 associated 156:5 102:21 103:6 answer 4:14 14:25 applied 101:2 arranged 138:21 association 71:25 105:19 106:4 26:17 45:18 112:7,21 115:24 arrangements 88:3 78:17,20,22 104:8 107:18 115:24 111:17 applying 97:19 112:12 127:20 140:14,19 116:16 117:8,21 answered 26:15 appoint 56:15 arrival 42:16 66:1 140:23,25 120:16 121:1 anticipated 86:17 appreciate 60:8 arrived 15:12 associations 122:19 125:24 127:1 anxiety 53:17 54:7 appreciation 83:24 41:12 143:25 assume 113:7 128:5 129:14,20 85:7 approached 6:1 164:3 178:11,18 assured 168:13 130:5,11,17,22,24 anybody 49:3 32:17 81:23 Arthur 156:24 attached 107:13 132:9,10,15,23 56:22 74:7 138:15 approaching article 8:2,11 19:9 144:17 135:15,16,19 anybody's 27:3 122:14 20:11 69:7 150:21 attachment 38:4 136:6,9 anymore 172:24 appropriate 76:9 151:11 175:12 attachments 22:21 Australia's 21:21 181:3 105:10 107:3 articles 7:5,16,24 53:13 61:19 Australian 13:11 anyway 113:14 113:15 117:3 32:20 69:1 156:11 attacks 53:18 37:3 49:24 77:7 148:14 118:25 155:1 articulated 108:22 attempt 85:9 88:23 91:24 apart 43:8 76:7 175:3 ascent 168:6 169:25 117:18 120:21,24 158:15 appropriately ashamed 148:17 attempted 85:5 121:6 131:8 apologise 159:8 96:24 99:9 154:15 179:6 attempts 118:23 134:23 apology 51:14 78:5 approval 109:6 asked 6:6 10:2,5 attendance 20:2 Australians 120:18 160:5 111:19 112:1 16:23 30:10 33:22 attention 7:20 authorities 26:13 appalled 71:10 115:4 116:20,22 48:18 49:5 109:8 19:10,17,23 23:16 89:6 95:2 96:23 appalling 26:3 59:1 117:15 147:16 173:3 23:17 24:8 25:12 97:4,13,25 98:5 apparent 64:21 approve 98:20 asking 12:4 32:4 69:2 73:3 76:17 101:13 111:21 162:7 106:4 112:3 117:2 139:10 101:25 135:10 132:7 151:5 apparently 20:18 approved 116:13 aspect 27:4 56:3 166:14,17 175:1 authority 93:4,24 148:10,21 150:18 approving 97:3 60:11 115:5 176:17 94:2,8,15 95:6,7 157:11 115:7 116:22,25 aspects 17:23 53:5 attitudes 80:23 95:12,22 96:10,11 appear 134:7 Aquinas 138:5,7 56:11 audience 107:21 96:16,18 101:6,9 appearance 66:6 archival 90:19 aspiration 129:10 Audrey 141:20 101:20 102:6 appearances 35:10 115:14 131:15,17 aspirations 112:25 142:22 154:20 104:7 109:5,12 appeared 60:19 archives 60:14,18 assault 42:10 46:14 aunt 154:20 155:8 110:9 111:1

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constructed 28:3 conversation 71:12 155:13 157:9,17 County 101:21 crucial 5:22 construction 41:10 154:19 163:5 177:17 couple 81:1 149:5 cruel 14:15 149:9 consulted 112:8,9 conversations 45:6 178:17 175:13 176:19 crushing 49:11 contact 13:22 23:25 45:12 75:25 correction 164:17 course 4:7,19 5:2,4 Cry 140:8 24:4,11 25:13 147:23 corrective 57:12 5:4 6:1 7:14 9:4 crying 11:4 58:16 64:1 70:5 converted 62:22 correctly 108:13 13:4 16:16 18:12 cultural 79:9 104:3,11 108:21 convey 95:4,10 142:18,19 18:19 22:17,19 culture 15:18 43:16 134:2 136:2 conveyed 51:2 correspondence 25:18,24 26:13,20 43:25,25 140:14 178:9 67:13 70:10 23:23 25:15,19 27:19 28:9,25 Curtis 72:7,13 contacted 9:12 conviction 163:1 corresponding 29:10,11 32:12 104:17 108:24 23:21 63:6 cooperating 34:18 140:20 34:3 38:16 39:15 119:17,25 121:8 contain 181:9 copied 69:21 cost 125:19 44:11 45:25 46:19 curve 10:9 contained 24:16 100:14 costs 94:21 48:7 49:6 51:22 custodians 136:12 content 40:9 copy 139:20 144:14 cottage 137:10 53:6,9,19 54:1,4 custodianship contents 178:7 180:11 149:4,4,13 151:8 60:24 61:13,18 136:5,18 182:2 core 39:4,5 40:7,10 152:17 153:11,17 64:6 74:5 75:4,7 cut 42:6 43:11 52:3 context 39:16 43:7 86:3,20 109:10 158:15 160:2,4,19 79:4 85:18 86:18 149:24 150:2,9 51:22,22,23 69:23 164:14 160:20,22,25 90:9 95:19 99:2 CV 35:12 37:9 88:20 99:9 102:17 corporal 159:22 162:17 164:2,9 99:13,18 103:4 continual 15:19,19 160:2 164:18 168:8 169:9 107:11 D continue 6:17 correct 2:4 3:13,16 171:17 172:5,7,11 court 19:25 104:4,5 D 182:9 20:23 62:14 78:18 3:17,24 4:3 6:5,8 176:1,22 104:8 110:21 daddy 29:14 30:11 91:1 96:8,12 6:15,23 7:2,10,12 cottages 149:3 111:9 114:4 daily 148:5 125:21 174:14 8:5 9:8 13:2,16,19 162:24 167:23 court's 69:2 dainty 170:1 continued 20:9 17:20 18:17,21,24 168:7 170:9 cover 38:16 147:16 damage 58:9 38:10 55:24 87:17 21:24 29:20 32:23 173:14 157:2 damaged 38:20 87:18 108:10 33:6 34:2,14,24 cotton 170:7 covered 138:9,12 damaging 59:4 170:10 182:19,22 35:21,25 36:3,6 Council 101:21 179:4 176:2 continues 105:22 36:11 37:1,7 38:3 126:23 127:4 coverup 15:25 danger 24:24 25:3 continuing 80:15 40:20 44:21 46:10 130:7 131:7,8 cowardly 20:5 dangers 174:5 continuity 38:5 47:20 50:16 51:9 counselling 33:13 Cowichan 156:6 dare 39:23 54:20 75:20 51:11 58:18,21 34:10 76:8 Cradles 35:18 54:21 continuum 54:16 60:21 62:3 63:1,8 countries 6:24 14:4 59:22 date 30:7 70:21,23 contrary 160:22 65:12,16 68:25 18:13 26:22,23 crept 162:16 73:18 142:17 contrast 27:15 69:18 70:19 72:9 27:16 37:20 72:22 crime 160:7 dated 37:9 100:21 108:19 77:25 78:11 80:1 89:2,15,18 116:9 crimes 14:7 28:14 dates 13:9 contribute 76:4 85:12 89:14,24 132:17,21 82:1 85:19 daughter 139:22 contributed 36:13 91:7 92:6 94:3,6 country 17:8 20:16 criminal 54:16 177:25 contributes 54:6 97:9 115:11 29:19 30:21 36:8 criteria 100:23 daunting 4:17 79:4 121:18 124:3 51:13 53:1 78:14 101:1,12 112:21 day 1:11 10:12 contributing 79:2 140:12 141:1,17 88:22 92:11 critical 74:5,8 11:10,17 12:13 control 56:24 82:18 142:1,10,16,21 103:13,17,21,23 76:15 150:6 169:2 14:21 15:9 22:17 99:11 143:7 145:5,15 104:12,16 105:21 169:3 172:5 26:10,14,16 28:11 convenient 21:11 146:6,18,21 109:2 112:14 criticisms 20:14 28:12 39:22 69:9 21:19 149:15,20 150:18 126:25 133:4,16 44:12 108:8 82:21 92:18 94:16 convenors 131:5 152:12 155:5,10 151:15 167:13 crowded 158:25 143:12 159:13

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161:20,24 162:6 deed 32:25 34:3 38:5 55:1 73:1 93:22 95:21 21:7 22:18 38:11 169:5,5 73:23 depth 154:1 101:19 105:7 44:11 53:8,8 days 1:5 4:12,16 deeply 153:5,9 deregister 92:24 111:15 112:19 60:19 61:20 63:12 8:24 10:9 15:1 deficiency 170:7 derived 108:24 115:20 122:10,22 68:5,23 76:7 86:1 25:2 26:11,21 degradation 15:21 151:10 133:5,6 136:7 88:4,7,11 89:2,3 28:18 31:15 39:7 42:9 44:7 derogatory 148:9 137:2 166:19 89:21,25,25 92:3 39:21 40:23 66:4 degrading 39:18 descent 168:6 detailed 2:21 3:6 121:14,15 124:19 70:25 91:4,5 97:6 degree 90:5 121:22 describe 32:9 38:4 25:24 37:18 99:8 129:22 131:11 128:11 155:5 degrees 36:4 38:11 41:6,16 48:3 61:8 99:14 100:22 136:24 137:16 159:15,15 162:1 129:18 62:14 74:12 81:3 101:17 143:1 157:11 de-ciphering 1:23 dehumanisation 100:22 147:24 details 8:7 12:17 169:12 dead 6:6 10:4,7 41:14,16 43:22 described 9:11 65:17,24 75:22 differentiate 12:2 13:6,13 54:11,15 12:24 13:25 14:12 determination 124:18 28:23 29:1 30:19 dehumanising 41:7 16:15 17:14,17 77:15 difficult 4:25 5:14 81:24 42:20 43:10,23 27:5 28:5 35:12 determined 59:8 14:22 31:12,17 deal 3:6 5:21 32:12 delay 53:22 41:3,13 42:9 devastation 15:22 45:15 46:1 56:5 32:14 37:22 60:5 deliberately 75:23 43:14 44:22 46:4 develop 45:23 64:15,16 81:4,8 87:15 97:21 delinquent 174:2 47:8 48:20 49:11 developed 45:17 85:6 91:15 93:16 106:19 115:5 deliver 79:17 49:16,21 50:22 80:14 98:7 104:25 116:4 120:14,15 denial 180:23 53:22 54:9,11,12 development 22:21 131:18 139:16 122:3 171:14 denied 180:10,18 54:19 55:2 57:7 59:9 120:22 142:3 181:4 181:25 denomination 58:11,14 63:5 devolve 132:16 difficulties 56:3 dealing 25:21 97:1 127:3 65:22 69:7,8 83:6 devolved 132:11 58:13 64:7,9 deals 17:2 19:10 denominational 84:8,20 107:6 133:1 108:21 114:17 32:8 41:5 65:3 130:3 127:24 131:5 devolves 134:11 difficulty 131:12 87:12 105:8 dentist 57:3,4 142:25 143:10 devolving 134:10 digging 161:11 109:24 deny 83:14 148:20 149:2,16 134:23,25 dignity 4:18 dealt 3:7 80:11 department 13:12 150:12 153:16 devotion 162:17 dilemma 39:8 Dear 145:8 72:24 81:6 100:20 177:7 Dhurringile 128:13 dimension 64:24 death 28:22,24,25 119:22 133:2 describes 158:23 129:3 diocese 23:21 debate 82:20 134:10,22 135:2,4 161:19 diagnostic 82:24 direct 57:16 115:13 debates 31:13 Departments 94:11 describing 43:22 diagonally 145:3 119:24 136:10 decades 53:25 132:13,17 description 80:15 diagram 128:3,6 directly 86:1 95:17 December 37:9 departure 92:11 descriptions 30:19 129:13 director 1:16 decided 164:16 depended 149:4 desires 174:19 die 56:21 83:17 140:22 174:17 depending 121:20 despair 77:17 died 13:8 28:20 dirt 169:20 decision 22:19 124:25 81:11 178:7,8 dirty 169:18 24:10 61:12 78:6 deportation 17:10 desperately 47:9 difference 61:13 disabled 22:3 106:17 107:16 40:17 despite 59:1 77:21 110:24 discharging 20:3 decisions 5:15,16 deported 14:3 destroy 31:25 111:5 112:21,25 57:8 5:17 25:17 95:8 51:13 destroyed 31:4,7 134:20 disciplinarian 99:17 depression 53:17 detail 6:9 7:13 9:10 differences 18:13 160:1 deckhand 157:12 54:7 16:6 46:11 52:11 60:24 61:2 88:8 discipline 159:21 Declaration 44:16 deprivation 14:15 54:23 59:22 70:4 88:25 118:20 171:9,18 177:1 decreasing 94:5 15:16 49:12 75:17 88:6 89:8 155:14,18 disclose 45:14 67:8 dedicated 124:13 deprived 30:2,2 91:10,17,19,21 different 14:4,8 disclosed 50:2

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63:24 178:15 divulge 83:8 125:23 128:17 139:8,9,9 emigration 72:2 disclosure 90:12,25 doctor 33:22 60:3 129:5,24,24 130:1 ears 58:9 103:16,19 105:15 97:10 131:16 143:17 182:15 easier 141:13 105:16,24 106:2,5 disclosures 51:12 doctor's 170:23 drafted 103:8 easy 168:5 107:3 109:24 discontinuity document 71:20,23 drafting 72:11 eat 169:8 112:10 124:1 107:23,25 108:5 71:24 113:11 drained 158:2 eating 48:20 169:17 141:14 142:8 108:12 137:14 drama 35:12 editor 140:20 143:5,9 discourage 105:14 documentaries drastically 18:3 educated 64:23 emotional 14:14 discouraged 23:8 35:12 draw 92:20 101:25 education 15:23 34:13 40:9 58:9 discovered 90:10 documentary 7:8 135:9 176:16 72:21 158:7 75:4 104:21 164:1,25 175:18 35:17 drawing 23:17 24:7 171:20 176:15 emotionally 158:1 discovering 128:14 documentation 25:11 135:6 educational 14:14 emphasis 104:20 discrepancy 111:19 75:2 drawn 19:17 69:2 76:21 118:23 Empire 7:9 8:4 discrete 116:5 documents 90:12 166:17 175:1 119:14 17:18 22:7,7 discuss 81:6 90:25 97:11 dreadful 169:5 effect 21:25 43:15 35:14 115:10,14 discussed 20:18,19 131:17 drink 169:8 90:1 143:20 115:18,22,23 94:24 173:23 doff 161:20 drinking 48:20 effectively 93:2 117:24 125:23 discussing 165:18 doing 18:7 71:4 driver 161:8,20 94:18 96:5 110:15 126:23 127:4,6 discussion 29:20 90:10 164:12 drove 21:7 113:20 131:25 130:7 131:8,22 82:13 102:15,17 domestic 47:11 Drusilla 1:10 effects 52:15 employed 158:9 118:17 137:15 158:10 174:16 due 7:14 9:4 18:12 efforts 106:13 employment 73:3 discussions 63:20 176:5 18:18 25:24 32:12 eggshells 149:11 170:3,4 120:20 166:10 dominions 167:12 44:11 47:9 95:19 eight 4:16 25:2 Empty 35:18 59:22 disease 33:25 donation 33:10 99:2,13,18 157:22 158:1 enable 83:9 disgruntled 176:25 donned 160:1 Dunae 175:11 171:4 encounter 42:14 disheartened 165:4 door 55:4 duties 156:24 either 18:9 30:21 encounters 9:18 dishes 167:23 169:8 dormitories 168:3 157:15,25 160:8 74:18 105:2 encourage 123:2 disjoint 27:5 double 19:21 161:3 165:16 134:13 147:12 173:16 108:14 double-check 166:1 172:17 153:1 172:19 encouragement dismissed 175:21 102:16 178:20 elaborate 51:11 106:13 disorder 82:25 doubt 4:22 duty 94:11 134:12 elderly 65:21 encrusted 169:21 disorders 53:17 doubted 165:15 179:17 element 55:20 59:4 ended 21:2 68:10 disquieting 162:11 doubtful 107:12 dwindled 170:24 76:19,21 endorsed 36:17 disruption 108:3 doubts 162:14,16 dynamic 45:9 53:3 elementary 158:7 enduring 52:15 108:20 162:24 168:18 elements 17:14 engage 121:17 dissent 119:16 Doyle 94:24 96:2,6 41:8 44:22 112:1 163:19 distance 113:25 Dr 2:16,17,19 3:4 E 116:3 engaged 1:25 distinction 27:11 5:4 7:18 8:1 16:5 E 182:9 elicited 52:14 54:25 engineer 63:15 93:12 110:8 19:13 21:6 23:15 ear 170:16,16 elite 21:22 62:10 engineering 120:17 124:17 25:11 27:4 32:14 earlier 17:4 54:24 137:19 England 25:6 27:6 distress 69:14 35:2 43:1 59:15 earliest 7:3 embarrass 35:2,4,6 42:24 50:24 51:6 146:19 59:20 65:3 69:20 early 8:24 26:11,12 embedded 153:9 62:11 123:17,19 distressing 84:25 69:23 71:23 73:20 28:18 31:14 39:7 emerged 45:9 124:6 126:23,25 139:16 75:23 80:9 85:20 39:21 45:6 70:25 emigrate 107:12,14 127:4 130:6,7,8 distribution 66:5 86:10,16 87:4 94:17 96:22 99:7 emigrated 125:19 131:7 146:21 diversity 135:18 108:1 123:16 119:13 125:21 emigrating 107:8 151:16,17 160:15

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monitoring 96:4 32:5 59:20 73:20 55:5 79:23 80:5 115:21 116:1 nurse 169:23 117:6 122:24 77:16 79:19 115:3 85:25 156:10,12 128:10,19 129:24 nursery 42:7,22 135:7 137:1 moved 31:14 40:19 167:22 129:25 132:9,24 43:6 month 12:5 170:20 68:23 Nazareth 125:7 134:20 months 42:19 moving 32:14 necessarily 96:23 newcomer 164:3,4 O 166:2 147:5 160:21 113:6 130:15 news 19:24 O'Brien's 136:14 months' 146:3 mucker 157:12 necessary 29:17 newsletter 140:21 O'Byrne 2:8 moral 24:24 25:2 mug 169:9 57:9 147:2 148:24 newspaper 7:5 19:9 o'clock 159:25 136:3,4 multi-faceted 53:7 148:25 174:4 19:17,20 63:3 oath 87:21 morning 1:4,22 multi-layered 53:7 need 4:21 22:22 69:7 156:10 objectives 33:4 2:19 58:24 59:14 multi-stranded 39:24 45:16 57:18 nice 149:6 35:8 165:5 108:2 139:7,7,8 40:6 57:25 59:25 65:24 night 40:2 162:2 objects 33:11 159:25 161:6 multiple 14:6 15:6 79:16,19 81:12,13 168:2 171:5 obligation 109:21 mother 9:16 10:1,8 25:17 59:2 82:1,19,22 83:1 nightmare 176:24 observation 171:9 10:9,10 11:18,25 mum 11:16 12:22 87:21 102:13,16 nine 63:4 observe 82:8 93:25 12:4,15 13:11 149:13 121:14 124:3 Ninian 36:19 Observer 7:5,16 24:5,12,19 25:5 mummy 29:14 158:11 171:20 Nissen 62:20 8:3,12 32:20 33:25 38:21 53:14 30:11 177:16 no-one 16:17,18,19 obstacle 180:22 81:22 139:25 museum 126:2,3 needed 34:19 39:14 47:15 49:8 50:8 obtain 31:2 141:5,15,18,21 57:12 113:14 135:24 171:19 obtained 105:18 142:12 143:2,11 N 145:17 nomination 136:8 144:7,8 177:20 143:21,23 144:5 N 182:9 needs 21:9 45:16 normally 98:16 obtaining 31:16 146:11 147:8 Naive 157:8 85:14 89:3 117:24 Normanhurst obvious 33:21 57:5 148:5,16,19 149:4 naked 43:20,20 negative 80:15 129:6 57:23 108:6 149:5,21,23 150:3 name 2:9 4:6 30:6 149:22 north 151:16 obviously 18:8 150:8 152:9 153:5 41:11,12 123:25 neglect 15:17 104:9 Northern 37:5 77:6 23:22 71:2 88:9 153:14,25 168:8 155:6,7 172:17 negotiation 120:13 98:10 92:24 93:5 97:14 168:13,24 176:25 173:4 177:16 neither 104:24 note 20:12 160:4 100:4 110:17 177:22,24 178:8 named 131:14 146:22 150:16 notes 157:8 158:5 122:22 126:9,12 mother's 140:7,9 136:12 155:6,19 160:8 notification 97:12 133:5 134:11,15 141:3,15 142:22 names 70:12 155:1 Nelson 36:18 Nottingham 3:15 136:4 144:21 144:9 146:21 155:8 173:7 networks 131:6 6:3 9:7 36:4,5 occasions 33:21 150:1,8 153:24 naming 177:13 never 10:12 11:6,7 NSW 130:22 occurred 97:7 154:13,20 180:15 narrower 105:21 12:13 21:12 22:1 nuclear 120:23,24 odour 169:22 mothered 158:16 narrowest 127:13 41:18 49:3,4 number 35:9 41:11 off' 11:14 mothers 9:21 13:7 nasty 150:13 50:13 75:1 106:2 60:1 65:10 68:21 offender 159:8 75:14 83:22 nation's 78:4 112:20 113:21 88:10,24 91:18 160:6 137:11 160:2,19 national 7:20 50:9 149:11 178:3 94:5 101:13 offending 170:12 160:20,24,25 76:17 88:7 89:11 179:8 123:14 133:12 office 92:19,20,22 162:17 169:9 89:17 92:12 93:12 nevertheless 151:12 170:6 92:23 93:2,5 171:11,17 172:6,8 98:3 100:14 125:10 numbering 158:14 96:20 97:3,14,14 172:12 176:22 102:18 115:12 new 6:21 18:14 175:14 176:20 99:1,7 100:7,20 motivations 22:6 123:16 124:12 23:11,12 30:1 numbers 51:14 100:21 101:2,23 motives 21:5,7,9 125:4 130:4 132:8 36:15 67:22 68:1 97:15 151:18 102:5 104:1 mounting 153:4 133:1 134:22 68:14 69:4,7,17 numbing 12:25 107:24 108:4,25 move 4:24 17:1 nature 34:1 43:12 88:13 92:10 109:1 Numerous 170:21 113:11,18,22

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168:11 16:14 26:11 31:22 33:21 34:20 38:12 person's 104:8 Pinjarra 124:1 pariah 125:16 46:21 56:5 58:8 46:1 50:7,10 personal 7:22 8:8,9 128:25 part 1:13 8:11 13:3 58:16 64:17 66:3 51:15 53:2,4,23 53:12 59:9 97:25 piss 153:18,18 17:2 22:4 25:4 67:4 75:13 76:12 53:24 58:3 60:25 165:6 177:12 pissy 153:16,18,18 40:3,3,4,14 41:14 85:6,8 91:12,23 61:6 63:11 66:9 personalised place 44:19 71:15 42:11 43:9,21,23 102:20 105:15 67:7 68:15 72:12 135:23 109:11 136:9 45:25 53:18,21 107:21 108:1 74:14,16 81:17 Persons' 104:6 149:1 152:14 54:7 55:6 59:24 132:12 134:1 91:17 117:20 109:22 110:18 168:14 173:16 65:3 66:20 69:19 173:22 139:20 155:18 perspective 108:7 174:17 179:19,19 75:5,11,12 76:15 parties 89:21 116:6 162:5 168:23 persuade 118:24 placed 18:15,19 77:3,3,12 78:4 partly 24:12 97:24 173:24 179:5,6,15 Perth 9:7 71:4 27:14 68:7 88:14 79:6,10,12,13 partners 50:14 180:6,7 181:2 138:1 104:3,7 114:15 82:12 86:17 87:4 120:8 people's 108:19 pertinent 103:7 141:15 143:15 89:5,13 90:4 98:6 parts 47:1,6 92:18 perceived 27:6 pervasive 13:24 171:22,22 176:4 98:20 100:10 149:24 150:9 percentage 70:2 14:10 52:25 178:14 101:15 116:21 169:21 perception 14:5 perversion 164:16 placement 47:9 124:24 125:9,14 pass 181:7 66:25 pervert 177:7 176:13 125:25 126:12,21 passage 169:19 perceptions 14:9 pessimism 52:25 placements 47:24 127:11 129:25 172:16 175:17 perform 62:5 pest 166:7 68:21 131:12 133:3 passages 127:7 performed 62:1 pets 15:22 places 47:4 149:7 150:1,20 passed 142:9 period 11:8 63:24 phase 3:5 86:18 placing 20:15 158:11 167:14 177:14 180:16 65:14 95:13 96:14 phenomenon 6:25 plan 16:4,6 168:7 168:20 174:9 passports 30:3 106:16 111:12 42:4 81:2 83:7 planning 5:19 177:19 pastoral 127:2 122:20 123:1,10 philanthropists platform 11:2 parted 164:20 path 172:19 170:11 94:17 122:12 play 55:6 89:12 partial 115:9 pathway 143:11 periodic 117:11 phone 56:13 168:2 participants 86:20 patience 154:10 periods 6:16,22 photographs 55:17 played 89:5 109:10 patient 169:24 17:11 36:24 161:4 photos 126:6 please 1:23 2:16 participate 122:2,8 Patricia 139:1,2 permanent 4:8 phrasings 110:24 8:10 17:1,6 19:9 particular 2:24 183:1 5:13 120:22,24 physical 14:14 19:12 28:20 32:14 3:22,25 9:25 pattern 128:15 permission 96:24 34:13 45:11,22 37:17,22 38:9 10:19 13:10 14:11 patterns 69:16 97:16 145:14 58:5,9 75:4 48:3 56:7 59:23 18:5 21:17 24:10 128:14,23 146:23 105:18,21 148:20 61:21 65:2,5,20 46:2 55:17 65:24 pausing 33:20 permitted 116:25 159:5 67:20 69:19 70:21 71:9 73:24 76:9 96:25 100:23 perpetrators 15:6 physically 167:18 71:21 73:20,25 77:5 79:24 82:5 103:18 125:3 16:17 59:3 81:17 picked 162:5 166:9 78:1 80:9 87:24 87:14 94:11 95:7 pay 80:3 85:25 person 9:12 32:18 picker 157:14 93:23 111:24 95:23 96:9 101:25 145:20 159:13 37:3 56:20 104:4 picking 161:10 113:9 115:3 132:3 102:14 103:8 peas 161:10 106:19,24 109:18 picks 167:21 139:1,17 140:17 109:9,11,16 pee 153:2 109:18 110:2,4,12 Picton 128:18 141:2 147:22 111:17 118:11 pence 145:20 110:21 111:23 129:6 152:13 153:23 127:3 135:22 pensions 64:12,18 113:15,19 114:7 picture 5:8 8:12,15 154:18 156:2,19 140:5 147:17 82:15,19 114:13 134:3,6 pictures 107:17 157:18 163:14 148:2 171:23 people 9:2,18 14:20 144:22 172:11 piece 22:18 159:6 166:22 171:18 179:1 14:23 23:23 28:12 173:6 177:13 pieces 110:16 173:9 174:10 particularly 5:12 28:16,19 29:3 178:6,13,15 148:23 175:13,14 177:11

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programmes 1:12 124:22 134:7 148:11 151:3 60:19 61:20 63:16 rate 176:7 21:8 176:14 136:10 145:9 152:21 173:1 70:22 81:10 82:24 ratio 135:12 projects 7:3 66:24 164:19 177:19,23 86:4 87:25 88:3 rationales 17:16 prominent 61:17 province 176:9 putdown 148:14 88:10 98:25 99:7 rationalising prominently provincial 89:17 puts 44:2 101:17 107:22 173:25 125:11 132:11 putting 24:24 55:16 113:4 120:20 re-established promised 164:18 provision 135:19 74:19 85:1 131:21 135:4 104:13 164:19 168:11 provisions 109:11 136:24 142:2 re-establishing promote 34:6,10,22 109:16 Q 145:11 149:11 104:11 107:5 promoting 79:10 proximity 173:14 qualification 105:5 150:24 151:15 114:24 prompt 24:18 PS1 144:16 132:18 154:19 165:19 reached 25:17 proper 18:20 41:9 PS4 166:23 qualifications 3:9 quotation 100:17 reaching 157:6 109:17 110:2,4,11 psychological 54:3 qualified 3:15 quote 144:18 reaction 154:8 133:9 181:17 59:9 75:19 quoted 100:9 read 2:7 15:23 properly 18:6 psychologist 71:3 qualities 118:25 143:20 24:17 69:1,21 19:16 84:20,22 public 50:4,8,10 quality 25:22 41:11 quotes 151:11 100:13 103:24 107:9 90:16 94:10,23 93:1 118:11 172:5 141:12 146:2 properties 47:11 107:21 121:2 Quarriers 124:12 R 149:23 150:24 proportion 58:15 132:7 125:5 racial 22:7 157:20 159:1,3 135:10 publicised 7:5 question 5:3 24:21 racket 163:17 162:22 170:19 proposal 86:14,15 publicity 125:13 26:14 39:8 85:21 radio 35:10 175:16 86:19 87:9 126:1,6,13 105:17 109:9 RAF 62:21 reading 16:5 26:1 propose 145:12 publicly 98:14 111:17 118:8 rain 43:2 102:9 177:21 proposed 72:15 published 147:8 150:23 178:3 raise 78:24 91:9 reaffirmed 87:22 proposition 16:10 pull 7:25 102:10 180:1 raised 24:21 68:21 real 7:21 14:23,23 22:10 122:4 157:2 questioned 142:17 91:18 138:17 38:25 48:9 58:9 prospect 103:13 pulled 11:3 questioning 139:13 raking 161:10 58:10 78:7 83:23 104:2 114:24 pulling 44:13 questions 2:18,20 ran 11:1,2,12 149:16 prospects 104:15 pummelled 164:5 2:23 18:12 29:8 137:25 realisation 23:12 105:3,24,25 punished 150:5,6 29:11,12 30:22 rang 56:19 realise 167:2 106:11 107:5 166:7 32:6 37:17 41:19 range 8:7 17:16,16 realised 10:25 protection 1:13 punishment 43:14 45:3,8 59:21 40:25 45:22 49:10 99:10 3:14 23:21 104:9 159:6,22 160:3,6 60:10 65:4 73:21 74:24 75:9 76:7 reality 26:2 89:23 114:10 164:18 171:14,15 80:10 86:7,9,9,11 77:1 79:3,17,19 128:5 136:23 protesting 161:8 punishments 86:12 87:19,23 84:3 88:4 121:14 really 8:25 20:9 provide 20:1 33:13 152:13 153:13 133:13,25 138:14 121:15 130:9 27:2 30:1 34:2 33:15 34:10 90:5 pupil 177:14 139:3,10,14,14,15 135:13 147:18 38:18 41:1 53:20 98:24 115:9 purports 146:11 141:2,4 154:18 157:11 58:2,7 66:11 67:5 122:17 purpose 116:13 178:25 179:22,24 rape 14:7 46:14 74:16 75:11 79:16 provided 23:19 129:10 182:17,24 183:3 raped 46:18,25 81:12 84:2 99:22 98:25 107:25 purposefully 126:9 quickly 56:14 47:23 52:2 57:25 99:24 112:20 115:15 138:6 put 11:6 16:11 20:6 79:16 149:21 178:15 122:9 149:6 145:10 158:8 24:23 25:2 34:3 166:11 rapes 15:6 152:25 179:4 177:12 52:7 63:2 69:22 quite 5:10 9:20 rapidly 172:9 reason 23:4 34:11 provides 45:23 103:5 114:22 14:21 16:23 29:21 raping 165:12 46:1 72:17 141:18 providing 115:7 117:1 142:6 29:22 48:14 57:10 rarely 160:13 177:23

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reasonable 129:9 97:22,25 98:8 refusing 56:20 116:18 128:3 66:14 123:14 reasoned 107:15 118:2 128:9 regard 89:3 129:3,15,22 reminded 72:12 reasons 40:17 170:10 regarded 80:20 135:23 reminding 137:22 101:4 121:16 recover 53:4 136:1 176:12 relationships 23:7 reminiscent 169:10 recall 63:23 151:23 Recovering 75:4 regarding 4:13 53:13 58:14,19 remit 126:20 127:2 recalled 149:24 recovery 13:3 14:9 77:18 88:1 89:20 remote 47:1 106:1 receipt 145:8 38:24 39:6 53:20 regimes 14:15 89:25 90:8 91:23 106:11 receive 51:25 96:18 74:9 75:11 77:3 regional 134:19 92:2 104:13 120:7 removal 54:10,14 116:14 117:3 79:12 register 92:21 120:21 128:8,10 remove 106:12,12 received 35:24 recruitment 131:25 registered 30:8 128:21 130:2 removed 2:2,11 41:25 63:3,4 137:6,10 92:22 162:19 93:3 114:4 170:12 67:25 78:18 111:3 recurring 170:10 regrettable 90:16 relative 105:13 removing 3:20 116:12 131:23 redacted 144:21 regretted 159:7 relatively 98:6 rendered 18:6,8 158:7 redress 49:24 82:10 178:21 100:22 124:23 renegotiate 120:18 receiving 72:21 82:13,17 165:24 regular 6:17 151:1 renewal 117:25 90:13 92:12 reducing 94:21 regularly 10:14,18 relatives 103:21 118:21 119:3 117:16 128:4,17 refer 66:13 72:5 reinforced 14:12 relevance 159:10 renewing 104:2 129:8,15,18 130:2 135:21 173:11 rejected 99:23 relevant 90:19 108:21 reception 94:12 reference 25:4 142:8 102:11 181:9 repealed 111:7 112:13 26:19,19 102:18 rejection 85:7 relief 68:18 repeated 112:11 reclaim 113:22 125:15 144:16 relate 57:3 91:12 relieved 164:21 117:25 114:5,11 175:11 related 17:11 97:18 religious 17:23 repeatedly 178:1 reclaimed 37:12 references 131:20 relates 4:7 23:20 55:17 89:12 replaced 2:8 reclaiming 113:25 175:13 37:14 58:4 96:14 124:22 130:11 report 19:18,20,24 recognise 174:2 referred 27:19 165:12 reluctant 123:8 51:6 54:21 72:7 recognised 14:13 28:18 30:17,17 relating 77:23 151:5 72:13 87:11,24 165:6 41:17 44:3,5,10 131:17 rely 103:15 89:22 94:1,4,7,24 recognising 167:7 44:15 56:2 69:6 relation 1:23 2:3,5 remain 103:14 95:5,20 96:2 recognition 50:5,7 79:8 94:16 100:8 66:23 67:17 79:21 remainder 59:14 98:19 100:8,9,10 50:9 79:13 150:11,22 175:11 80:2 81:12 82:13 remained 94:2 100:11 102:2 recollection 48:9 176:19 87:10 90:15 91:23 143:5 108:24 117:13 recollections 48:5 referring 27:21 92:7 113:1 116:16 remaining 72:15 118:15 119:4,25 48:14 47:10 100:19 122:25 127:4 105:19 121:8,24 129:1 recommendation 101:10 108:12 130:24 132:23 remains 93:18 135:12 136:21 72:12 113:10 181:9 172:15 180:2 remarked 173:3 151:22,24 164:18 reconciliation refers 135:15 181:10 174:20 165:22 166:17,20 81:22 137:12,15 160:18 relations 72:24 remarks 1:3 173:19 166:21,22 169:1 record 1:25 31:21 reflect 28:4 70:17 103:12 118:4,18 182:11 171:9 172:5 173:8 35:6,22 37:8 101:3,22 162:4 118:24 119:5,11 remarry 25:6 173:10 174:9,10 126:5 170:19 163:10 168:18 119:15,16,19 remarrying 24:19 174:11,23 175:1 recorded 142:18,19 171:6 120:4,6,6,11,13 remedies 174:6 176:20 180:8,12 142:19 174:8 reflects 20:17 121:3,5 123:8 remedy 83:14 182:2 records 29:21 reforms 80:2 81:13 138:2 165:13 remember 12:4,7 reported 70:11 30:25 31:2,3,7,11 refusals 83:7 173:12 174:3 13:4 30:7 43:4 reporter 157:13 31:11,13,15,16,19 refused 56:19 relationship 75:21 54:3 reporting 160:4 31:21 32:1 36:23 178:1 93:18 114:21 remembering 43:4 reports 32:10 44:11

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97:15,15 99:4 responded 160:14 reunite 84:16 85:9 53:21 55:20,25 140:25 141:4,6,9 120:2 125:12 response 44:4 72:6 reunited 13:18 57:16 58:20 60:12 141:13,21,22,25 150:5 155:23 responses 63:4 37:12 60:15,16 61:16 142:9,11,20,23 176:21 responsibilities reuniting 85:13 62:13 63:18,19,25 143:2,3,6,12,13 represented 146:7 89:11 revealing 180:22 64:4,20,25 65:5,8 143:18,19,21,25 reputation 176:3 responsibility 20:1 reveals 170:5 65:9,17 66:18,21 144:1,3,6,22,24 request 178:4 84:4 92:4 95:8,24 revelations 51:12 67:16,25 68:8,11 144:25 145:4,14 required 92:20 96:9,11 108:25 review 8:3,12 37:3 68:12,24 69:4,5 145:23,24 146:5 110:13 111:10,15 115:6 131:1 132:4 118:10 69:10,17 70:3,14 146:13,14 147:3,6 141:24 153:16,20 132:10,16 134:9 reviews 101:2 71:13 72:1,7,8 147:13,14,17 163:8 134:15 135:21 118:5 119:2 73:4,5,6,11 76:1,5 148:19 149:12,14 requirement 95:14 136:3,4,13,23 revoked 114:8 76:6,11,22 77:2 149:19,25 150:2,9 96:17 111:1 responsible 97:2 revolutionaries 77:10,24 79:8,20 150:10,13,17 112:12 116:20 rest 152:16 161:16 79:25 80:7,18,24 151:20,25 152:11 requirements restoration 37:15 Rhodesia 21:22 82:1 83:6 84:12 153:20 154:6,7,24 106:21,23 110:19 78:2,3 85:23 86:6 31:7,23 60:6,8,11 84:13,23,24 85:4 154:25 155:2,4,9 111:19 restore 40:8 74:13 60:13 61:5,15,25 85:11 87:1,25 155:11,16,21 requiring 110:23 114:21 62:12 63:7,21 88:5 89:5,10,19 156:16,22,25 Rescue 23:21,21 restoring 39:12,13 64:2,23 88:18,20 89:20 90:3,7,9 157:1,8,16 159:18 research 6:25 7:4 74:15,22,23,24 92:10 115:25 91:2 92:1 93:25 159:19 160:16,25 32:19 33:16 34:6 77:18 127:20,21 132:9 94:7,13,14 95:11 161:1 162:7 163:4 34:21,22 60:15 restricted 156:12 rhymes 42:7,22 95:21 97:8 98:1,2 163:5,21 165:8 65:6,7 68:2 70:22 156:14 180:9 43:6 98:11 99:3,5,21 166:8,12,13,13 71:11 90:10 147:5 result 37:10 143:15 ride 168:14 100:1,2,13 101:8 169:2 172:3,4 147:7 150:14 177:18 right 3:10,23 4:2 101:24 102:3,7,14 174:7 175:9,10 177:18 resume 35:2 36:7 5:25 6:11,14,20 102:15 103:10 177:9,10,13,16,17 researcher 70:5 37:2 86:21 7:18 8:20,21 9:6,7 105:11 106:4,7,8 178:5,14,23,24 90:14 98:14 resworn 87:22 9:8,14 11:15,22 106:21,22 107:2 180:4,24 researching 164:25 retained 94:11 98:1 12:19 13:18,20,24 107:19,20 108:13 rightly 11:23 37:23 181:2 98:4 14:21 16:9 17:7 109:10,15,19,20 rights 15:17 44:15 reservations retardation 171:25 17:24 18:10,14 109:22 110:7,14 44:16 162:18 retarded 162:11 20:5,6,10 21:23 112:22,23 113:16 rigid 162:21 residential 88:15 retraumatising 21:24 22:3,4,8 113:21 115:6 rings 15:7 93:1,8 117:2 84:10 23:4,24 24:20 116:8,11,15 rise 87:1,15 138:21 122:15 124:22 return 3:5 59:14 25:7,11,25 27:4 117:17 121:12 ritualistic 43:14 125:8 128:18 64:10,12 86:18 27:12 29:22 30:25 122:5 123:13 ritually 43:20 130:9 133:24 92:25 105:13 31:7 32:21 35:6 124:10 125:6,9 Rogers 2:12 134:3,8 135:7,8 116:24 35:22 36:2,7,20 127:14,16,17,22 role 73:21 89:4,9 136:11 137:21 returned 177:25 36:25 37:6,8,13 127:25 128:2 89:16 97:1 98:19 resilience 38:12 returning 64:18 37:23 38:2,6 39:3 129:11,12 130:15 115:7,8 116:5 resist 54:20 123:9 109:4 120:4 41:15 42:1 43:12 130:18 131:3,11 117:15 121:10 resolving 33:18 returns 24:5 44:8,14,17,18,20 132:5,18 133:2,3 140:13,18,24 resort 159:5 reunion 12:14 44:21 45:1,25 133:19 134:9 161:20 171:14 respect 35:23 81:25 84:19,21 46:9,10,14,15,24 135:13,14 136:25 177:19 112:10 reunions 74:25 47:21 49:19,20,25 137:8,9 139:5,5 romance 173:16 respects 40:6 78:12 81:21 85:6 50:12 51:1,5,10 139:21 140:6,11 room 139:20 159:8

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160:3 165:23 25:1 162:1 shillings 145:21 similarly 2:11 slightly 5:8 37:18 167:9,13,18 severe 51:12 59:2 shine 49:23 104:15 129:23 104:25 116:4 168:13 180:15 160:8 shipped 6:4 simple 83:7 131:11 separate 86:4 97:19 severely 20:4 shipping 119:24 simply 88:21 90:22 slowly 13:1 162:16 117:12 sex 55:24 163:16 Shocked 164:14 103:17 105:15 small 75:20 124:24 separated 11:16 164:7 174:2 shocking 66:3 113:20,24 136:3 smiling 126:8 13:14 15:11,11,14 176:14 177:7 154:7 146:23 181:25 social 3:11 5:14 85:16 sexes 162:20 shoe 160:9,13 sin 160:10 22:18 33:13 71:25 separation 22:21 sexual 1:7 4:22 shoes 39:22,23 41:9 sincerity 4:18 72:4,10,16 73:5 108:20 162:20 14:14 15:3 34:13 shook 164:20 sing 43:1,6 48:16 74:21 75:7,19 Separations 15:10 38:19 45:4,11,15 short 59:18 87:7 48:18 159:11 86:4 131:10 163:7 September 142:11 46:2,12,14 47:9 106:16 138:23 singing 42:7,22 socially 28:3 163:8 sequence 94:9 49:11,23 50:2,14 166:25 175:4 single 176:8 societies 88:10 95:2 series 35:15 50:16 51:12 52:12 shouted 11:6 Sir 1:9 36:19 145:8 110:10 122:7 serious 160:3 52:16,17,21 54:16 shouting 164:6 sister 29:15 140:1,3 123:6,6 124:11 175:24 55:21 59:2,3 show 170:9 171:24 142:15,22 143:4 132:8 seriously 172:23 63:21 67:1,8,12 shower 55:5 154:20 180:15 society 23:22 88:16 servant 96:20 97:3 69:24 77:23 showers 55:16,19 sisters 15:11,14 88:21 110:11 99:1 147:16 148:3 showing 97:16 75:14 125:7 111:8,10 115:17 servants 118:10 154:23 155:20,24 shown 62:24 site 62:16 120:23 123:18,18,24 serve 48:8 156:20 164:16 shows 20:7 152:5 120:24 124:1 125:7 served 48:13 169:5 165:13 172:15,16 siblings 15:10 23:8 sitting 1:8 127:15,17,19 service 33:16 64:11 173:12 174:3 141:16,19 143:9 situation 64:6 128:12,23 129:23 86:4 122:17 176:5 175:21,23 181:10 146:12,21 146:8 168:25 130:6,21 142:7 services 33:14 76:7 sexually 45:20 sick 142:23 143:15 situations 21:15 144:7,11 155:25 79:6 82:22 83:2 46:18,25 47:23 sickened 169:23 84:15 156:4,14 180:24 131:10 48:22 50:23 51:20 side 29:13 35:7,11 six 170:24 180:24 181:1,11 sessions 38:17 52:5 55:22 70:3 151:14 Skidmore 139:1,2 sodomite 177:7 set 8:16 21:7 33:5 70:12 155:3,12 sides 11:21,23 139:4,10,19,25 sofa 158:25 36:9 44:15 72:25 178:20 sifting 98:3 144:6,21 146:14 sold 61:8 86:25 87:16 shame 50:17,18,20 sight 16:24 147:6 151:3 152:2 solely 124:13,16 101:18,23 121:4 53:11,12 152:20 signed 134:4 153:23 156:19 126:15 127:16 127:5 151:9 153:9 144:23 157:4 165:10 solemnly 164:20 158:15 159:17 shamed 161:14 significance 25:8 175:14 176:17 soliciting 94:19 167:8 shapes 44:19 101:24 177:11 178:25 somebody 6:2 sets 33:1 90:24 share 179:3 significant 39:10 179:21 180:1 28:11 30:3 63:15 100:21 135:12 shared 129:10 43:4 64:8 92:13 181:18 183:1 71:2 82:15 110:3 setting 4:1 32:6,15 130:3 135:3 93:9 skill 162:17 145:1 153:11 75:24,24 122:13 Sharpling 1:10 significantly skills 137:6 156:23 165:22 settings 163:7 shattered 164:22 120:17 176:8 slave 15:15 69:8 178:11 settlement 115:10 she'd 6:4,6 70:8 signing 134:6 161:8,20 somebody's 53:14 115:14,18,22,23 136:18 signs 119:5 slavery 14:7 15:15 53:14 117:24 118:6 shears 42:7,17 similar 69:16 44:23 159:16 somewhat 105:4 126:23 127:5,6 sheet 169:23 110:22 125:22 slaves 159:20 117:8 121:22 130:7 131:8,22 sheets 44:6 152:19 127:22 176:9 sleep 53:17 162:12 133:23 seven 4:12,16 15:1 152:23 similarity 129:7 slight 110:8 134:20 son 10:20 11:15,23

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